THE MARTIN P. CATHERWOOD LIBRARY OF THE NEW YORK STATE SCHOOL OF INDUSTRIAL AND LABOR RELATIONS AT CORNELL UNIVERSITY The original of tiiis book is in tine Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924001765043 REPORT JOINT SPECIAL COMMITTEE Contract Convict Labor. BOSTON : Eantr, a&etg, * Co., prtnterg to t^e Commoninealtfj, 117 FbAI^KLIN SfBBET. 1880. CONTENTS. PAGE. Kepoet of Joint Special Committee on Contbact Convict Labob . , '. iii Tables. No. 1. — Showing industries in which convict labor is employed, xxxi No. 2. — Industries of the various prisons xxxii No. 3. — Statistical table of prison industries in Massachusetts . xxxiv Testimony before Joint Special Committee on Contict Labob, 3 M. V. B. Berry 3 Charles J. Adams 13 Samuel E. Chamberlain 22 Guy C. Underwood 40 Nahum Leonard 46 Charles D. Burt . . ' . .54, 71 Dr. T. G. Hurd 62, 72 William O. Brown 72 G. H. Spencer 80 Henry G. Taft 85 Martin Wesson 87 Joseph D. O'Neil 94 William B. Eice 98 Ira Blanchard Ill Chester N. Clark 118 E. N. Hunting 128 George W. Carnes 136 Charles E. Meyer 142 Benjamin E. Cole 159 George A. Denham 169 Horatio G. Herrick 184, 202 A. B. E. Sprague 192, 203 Joshua Crane 204 E. Shoepflin 209 Eev. J. H. Waterbury 221 Carroll D. Wright 225 Gilbert Eockwood .... 227 John T. Waring 228 John Johnson 230 John T. Zarega 231 James Murray 233 Olney T. Meader 233 E. B. Hawley \ 234 W. B. Eice, letter to Committee on Convict Labor . . . 236 Tables used bt Peemission of Cakroll D. Wright. No. 1. — Showing industries carried on in penal institutions in United States 238 No. 2. — Kind of labor in penal institutions 239 No. 3. — Method of employment . . .241 4 CONTENTS. PAOB. APPENDIX 245 Dr. Wines 245 Dr. Harris • 253 Professor Francis Waylaiid 267 E.D.Cornell 272,304 George J. Perry 282 W. D. Tocum 288 Julius M. Ellendorf 297 John Phillips ....'.. 297 Charles Thetford 305 Lettebs. Edward Atkinson to Committee on Convict Labor of Massachu- setts Legislature "06 William B. Kogers to Edward Atkinson 312 Gbnbbal Sketch fob Coubse of Instbuotion, by PBorEssoB John M. Obdwat . . ' 313 EEPORT JOINT SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON CONTEACT CONVICT LABOR. To the Senate and House of Representatives : — The Legislature of 1879 passed the following joint orders, approved on the eighteenth and twenty-fifth days of April, A.D. 1879: — COMMONWEALTH OF MASSACHUSETTS. House of KEPBBSEUTATrvES, March 24, 1879. Ordered, That there be appointed a Joint Special Committee, to con- sist of five members upon the part of the House of Representatives, with such as the Senate may join, to sit during the recess, without pay, except for their actual expenses, and provided that the whole expense of said committee, including the expense of sending for and examining persons and papers, shall not exceed the sum of one thousand dollars, to investi- gate the system of letting out to private contractors the labor of convicts in the penal and reformatory institutions of this Commonwealth, and report in print to the Legislature at its next annual session upon the fol- lowing subjects : — First, The effect of said system upon the general industries of the State. Second, The effect of said system upon the interests of free labor. Third, The effect of this system upon the reformation of the convict. Fourth, What advantage, if any, the products of prison-labor have over other manufactures in the matter of profits, and cheapness of labor. Fifth, The effect of any prison-contract upon the particular kind or kinds of goods mentioned in said contract. Sixth, The feasibility of abolishing the contract system, and substitut- ing therefor some other, whereby the profit shall not go to private con- tractors, but to the State. Seventh, Such other points not here enumerated as will give said com- mittee full statistics and information upon the subject mentioned. And, in order that the full spirit and intent hereof shall be attained, said committee shall have power to send for persons and papers within the Commonwealth, and to examine persons under oath. HousB OF Representatives, April 25, 1879. Ordered, That the Joint Special Committee appointed to sit during the recess to investigate the subject of convict-labor in the penal and reforma- tory institutions of the State be allowed the same compensation as is usually allowed to committees authorized to sit during the recess. Sent up for concurrence. GEO. A. HARDEN, Clerk. Senate, April 25, 1879. Concurred. S. N. GIFFORD, Clerk. In accordance with the above joint orders the following committees on the part of the two houses were joined : House, Messrs. Charles H. Litchman of Marblehead, Ham- ilton A. Hill of Boston, James H. Mellen of Worcester, William Reed, Jr., of Taunton, and Edwin W. Marsh of Quincy. On the part of the Senate, Messrs. Asa P. Morse of Cambridge, and William Taylor of Boston. The joint committee so appointed organized June 2, 1879, by electing Asa P. Morse of the Senate, chairman, and Wil- liam Reed, Jr., of the House, secretary. It was decided to examine personally the administration of the principal penal and reformatory institutions of this Commonwealth, wherein convict-labor is employed, and also to seek informa- tion attainable in certain other States where the prison-labor question has been made a topic for general discussion and legislative examination. In pursuance of this determination, visits were made to the State Prison at Concord, and the prisons at South Boston, East Cambridge, Deer Island, Sher- born, Worcester, Northampton, Springfield, and Lawrence, to the Reform School at Westborough, and State Workhouse at Bridgewater. In other States, the systems in vogue at Sing Sing, Albany, Auburn, and Elmira, N.Y., and the Eastern Penitentiary at Philadelphia, Penn., were examined. Official statements were also heard from Masters Berry, Adams, Burt, Hurd, and Underwood, of the Houses of Cor- rection at South Boston, East Cambridge, New Bedford, Ips- ■wich, and Deer Island, Sheriffs Sprague of Worcester County, and Herrick of Essex County, Warden S. C. Chamberlain of the State Prison, and the Rev. J. H. Waterbury, chaplain of the same, also from Superintendent Leonard of the Bridge- water Workhouse, J. E. Crane, Inspector of the sa.me, and Messrs. Brown and Taft of the Commissioners of Worcester County. The following persons, most of whom are directly or indi- rectly connected with the industrial departments of various county and State institutions, were also examined: G. H. Spencer, Superintendent of the Heywood Chair Company of Fitchburg ; William B. Rice, Ira Blanchard, shoe manufac- turers ; E. N. Hunting, brush-maker, Boston ; C. N. Clark, brush-maker. East Cambridge ; George W. Carnes, boys' cloth- ing maker, Boston ; Charles E. Meyer, Boston, gilt mouldings ; Benjamin E. Cole, Boston, shoes; George A. Denham and Eugene Schoeplin, Boston, gilt mouldings ; John T. Waring, New York, hat-manufacturer ; John Johnson, Boston, silver gilder; R. B. Hawley, Salisbury, hat-manufacturer; O. T. Meader, Boston, hatter ; Lawrence D. Welby, Boston, clerk ; J. O'Neil, Boston, slipper-maker ; Martin Wesson, Springfield, contractor at Bridgewater ; Messrs. Zerega & Murray, Bos- ton, journeyman hatters ; J. H. Belcher, Randolph, inspector at Bridgewater ; Gilbert Rockwood, Marblehead, clerk ; Car- roll D. Wright, Chief of Bureau of Statistics; F. B. Sanborn, Inspector of Charities, and Edward Atkinson of Boston. The testimony of others interested in the labor-question was also sought and obtained by correspondence A joint conference of the Prison-Labor Commissioners of the States of New Jersey and Connecticut was held at New Haven, Oct. 9, at which your Committee was present by invitation, and took part in the deliberations. The subject of contract convict-labor was discussed in all its phases at that conference, and the following propositions were unani- mously adopted : — 1. The general purpose of incarceration is the protection of society by the punishment of crime ; and, in carrying' out this purpose, the reformation of the prisoner should be constantly kept in view. 2. Partisan politics should be absolutely excluded from the management of penal and reformatory institutions. 3. The welfare of the State and the prisoner both demand that the latter should be employed in productive labor. 4. The right of the State to make its prisons self-support- ing should be conceded ; but it should not expect to make a profit out of the labor of its criminals at the expense of their reformation, or to the injury of the industrial classes. 5. The product of convict-labor, when compared with that of the .entire mechanical industry of the nation, is insignifi- .cant; but its concentration upon a very few branches of industry may be seriously injurious to the citizens engaged in those branches. 6. The burden of the competition of convict-labor should be distributed as widely and equally as possible. 7. The injury to any branch of industry from prison-labor may be reduced to very small proportions by the greatest practicable diversity of employments in the prisons. 8. Where the contract system prevails, contracts for con- vict-labor should be so drawn as to give the State absolute control of the discipline of the prisoners, and the State should prescribe all rules governing contractors and their employes. 9. The proper diversity of employment in the prisons should be secured by limiting the number of convicts to be emplo3-ed in any one industry: such limitation should be adequate to secure the industrial interests of the country from serious injury, and to afford the convict a reasonable certainty of employment upon his release. The following resolution was also unanimously adopted by your Committee, but was rejected by the New Jersey Com- mission, and had not been acted upon by the Commission of Connecticut at the time this report was put in -type : — Resolved, Under existing circumstances, and while the ref- ormation of the prisoner is made subordinate to the question of gain in our prison institutions, it is not expedient to abolish the contract system ; but this system, during its continuance, should be so guarded and restricted by legislation as to pro- tect tha interest of the State, promote the moral and indus- trial condition of the convict, and interfere as little as possible with free labor. An adjourned meeting of the same conference was also held in New York City on Nov. 12, 13, and 14, at which this Committee was represented by Messrs. Morse and Litch" man, and a large amount of valuable testimony and informar tion secured. Your Committee deem it a part of their duty to speak of a few of the impressions received by visiting the penal institu- tions of Pennsylvania and New York. With our 'own State Prison at Concord, the members of the Legislature are some- what familiar, as its workings and general characteristics are the same as those attached to the institution when it was located at Charlestown. The ordinary prison systems in this country are the solitary, and the congregate or Auburn system, in force at the Massachusetts State Prison. A visit to the State Penitentiary for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, at Philadelphia, was fraught with special interest, for the reason that there are but few penal institu- tions in the United States in which the separate imprison- ment of prisoners is now administered. The State had struggled from the year 1776 until 1821 to put in practice in a systematic manner a reform in its penal laws and in prison discipline. The friends of separate confinement reasoned that the effects of intercommunication, in one sense, put all crime upon a level. The introduction of labor as an essen- tial element of a general system of prison discipline may, perhaps, be justly attributed to that spirit of economy which characterizes the legislation of the Dutch. Hence prisons and workhouses have been synonymous terms in Holland from a very remote period. It is claimed by its friends that the forty years of trial that have been given to the Pennsyl- vania system in the Penitentiary at Philadelphia demon- strate that the objections to the separate system have, by actual experience within the Penitentiary, been thoroughly disproved, and the demonstration rests upon a body of volu- minous, elaborate, and minutely classified statistics, embra- cing industrial, moral, and educational relations of every prisoner received in the institution, and also their mental and physical health at admission and discharge. The inspectors who manage the State Penitentiary are five in number, appointed by the judges of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania for two years. The institution was first ready for prisoners in 1829. At that time the discipline was a theory. From 1849 to 1871 8 the inspectors were to a great extent occupied in investi- gating the principles and the philosophy of the separate or individual treatment discipline, which is now in full opera- tion in this institution. This epoch is now regarded as one of development and progress. In short, the Pennsylvania system muy now be properly described as the separate and individual treatment system of prison discipline; and its friends believe it to be as great a success as human effort, under all the circumstances, could be expected to accomplish. The basis of the discipline is intellectual or mechanical pursuits ; the prisoner is allowed one-half of the product of his labor in excess of his task, for his own use, or that of his family. The influences best adapted to each individual as a reforma- tory treatment of his case are directly applied. Several pleasant and instructive hours were spent at the new State Reformatory at Elmira, N.Y. This new prison system is designed "to check crime through the reformation, by systematic cultivation, of such of the prisoners as may be reformed, and the remainder to be restrained." Among other features, the system involves marks of merit and demerit, and of social grades, of which there are three ; the prisoner having different privileges according to his grade. " It scarce- ly needs to be said,' ' in the language of the annual report of the Board of Managers of the institution for 1879, " that the efficiency of this or any other system for the reformation of prisoners must depend much upon the wisdom and skill with which it is administered, so that the best results can only be reached after considerable experience ; but at present there are indubitable indications that the system is well based, one of the most satisfactory of which is to be found in the hearty accord of the prisoners with the administration in the plans and purposes relating to them and their welfare." The prison was organized March 16, 1877. The number of prisoners confined last year was less than three hundred. To students in the pathology of crime, the workings of the new system at Elmira, after a few years, will be regarded with special interest, as a regular system of education is carried on here in connection with the proper employment of the prisoners, the last-named feature being maintained so as to produce sufficient inherent income to support the establishment, and thus materially influence the success of the reformatory in the more important particulars of its high design, and this, too, without the intervention of contractors. The visit to the Albany Penitentiary was necessarily brief ; but the full scope of the workings of its discipline was gathered without much trouble. The institution is at present more than self-supporting, and it is free from debt. The contract system prevails here, shoemaking being the princi- pal work. The Penitentiary has an excellent school con- nected with it : the teaching is elementary only ; but an effort is being made to extend its instruction, so that it will include branches connected with the leading mechanical arts. It is evident, from the superintendent's report of the financial department of the Albany Penitentiary, that the State of New York thoroughly believes in the contract system, so far as the labor of its convicts is concerned. But it is but fair to say that a great measure of the pecuniary success of this prison is due to the presence of large numbers of United States prisoners, whose board is paid by the government, and whose labor is made a source of profit to the institution. At Sing Sing the labor system is essentially the same as in our own Commonwealth, although the policy of letting large numbers of convicts to one contractor prevails, giving reasonable grounds for a fear that the management of the prison, under such a policy, may rest more in the hands of him who buys the labor than of the prison officials responsi- ble to the State. The presence of a large number of free laborers from the village working among the prisoners points strongly to the power of a contractor's influence in the prison now ; for it is patent that the presence of outside workmen who come and go cannot but be dangerous to the discipline, and antagonistic to the best interest, of any institution, how- ever ably handled by its officers. One fact that made a deep impression on your Committee was, that, on the day of theii visit, of the 1,493 convicts, not one was in solitary confine- ment : all were at work, or in the hospital. The paddle still remains as a means of maintaining discipline in this prison, perhaps on account of a contractor's influence. Not so much time is taken from a convict's working-hours if he is flogged into submission, rather .than conquered by the slower process of the dark cell, and bread-and-water diet. At Auburn, also, the system is very much the same as 10 that in our own prison, although the prison industries are more varied, involving the use of a large amount of heavy machinery, and often particularly exhaustive toil. To the officers of the institutions of New York and Penn- sylvania the Committee are indebted for many courtesies and much valuable information. Therefore, as a result of testimony secured, and personal investigation pursued, to throw the largest amount of light upon the subject committed to them, your Committee would report as follows : — In this Commonwealth, as in most, if not all, the States of the Union, the system of selling the labor of prisoners for a term of years to the highest bidder prevails in State and county institutions, with but two or three exceptions ; the most notable of these being the Houses of Coi'rection at East Cambridge and New Bedford, the institutions at Deer Island, and the Reform School at Westborough. The House of Cor- rection at South Boston is managed partly on the contract system, and partly on a modified public-account system, by which work is done under charge of prison instructors for outside parties. Those in charge of the management of our prisons have, doubtless, reasoned that self-sustaining labor is an established law of nature in civilized society ; that it is as imperative upon the bond as upon the free ; and that, further than this, no human being will be redeemed from criminal associations without the habit of patient and pro- ductive industry. The adoption of the contract system of handling this involuntary labor has grown out of the desire for the most economical administration of penal institutions, and the necessity for relieving prison-keepers of ordinary ability from attempting to manage large manufacturing industries about which they know nothing. In fact, the congregate system of prison m,anagement and the contract form of labor are usually found inseparable. The usual method of selling the labor of convicts seems to be by inviting bids by public advertisement. The highest bidder, if a presumably responsible party, obtains the labor for a term of years ; furnishes his tools, machinery, and stocks, his foremen, instructors, and clerks ; receives his con- vict-laborers in a shop provided by the prison ; teaches the details of the industry during the hours prescribed by prison 11 rules ; and makes his wares and sells them in Ms own way. He looks to the warden for discipline and guards : the war- den looks to him for the pay for labor furnished. The con- tractor and his agents are expected to observe the prison rules so far as applicable to them ; and there is an implied obligation on the part of the prison authorities to maintain the discipline at such a point that work will go on with but little friction or interruption. It is in regard to this system, and its effects upon outside labor, prison discipline, and the reformation of the imprisoned, that the researches of this Committee have been directed, and, in order to present a fair statement of the case as it appears to them, it will be neces- sary, first, to point out the advantages of contract over outside labor as claimed by competitors, and the disad- vantages of working convicts, as stated by interested con- tractors and prison officers who defend the system. Advantages. The advantages are said to be, low rates for labor, free rent, little idleness, relief from strikes, or trade disturb- ances, and a system of discipline which secures from the average convict very nearly the same amount of work that a mechanic in the same industry would accomplish in a free shop. These advantages taken together are claimed to be so great, that, in a given line of manufacture, a prison contrac- tor can put his goods upon the market at a cost so much lower than that of free labor, that he can undersell competi- tors, and, by reducing their profits, diminish the wages of free men and women employed by them. It is urged, that, so far as prison rules permit, — and they are, perhaps, unfortunately often rather elastic, — the control of the bodies of the con- victs during working-hours rests almost absolutely with the contractor. He is said not to have made his plant for the advancement of the moral or physical good of the impris- oned : his desire is profit on his investment, and, so long as the surgeon pronounces his human machines fit for work, the hands must ply their task, and the brains direct the hands. It is intimated that a contractor would hardly be human who would not exert himself to secure the largest amount of work for the least expenditure of money, and that a philan- thropist seldom appears as a bidder for prison-labor. So long 12 as the hours of labor are regulated by the necessities of prison discipline and security, no time must be wasted for reformatory work, and the unwilling or slow laborer must be spurred into more vigorous action by the threatened loss of commuted time, or the vision of the solitary cell. To sum it up, it is argued that a prison factory well managed by an energetic contractor contains but so much human and metal machinery to be run at the highest rate of speed consistent with safety ; and that, under the iron hand of prison discipline, revolts are vain, and protests useless, so long as the contrac- tor's demands are kept within, the limits of the physical strength of his employes. The contract-price for prison labor varies, in the State and county institutions, from a few cents to fifty cents a day; the highest price obtaining at the State Prison and South Boston, and the lowest at the Bridgewater Workhouse. Whatever it may be, it has come to be regarded as a menace to the laboring masses, who think they see in it reduced wages and diminished comforts. Disadvantages. The disadvantages urged by advocates of the contract system are, short hours for work, interruptions by prison officials for reformatory or other purposes, ignorance, indif- ference, and malice on the part of prisoners, the cost of fore- men or instructors, the impossibility of curtailing the work- ing-force during dull seasons, the custom which compels them to take the men as they run, and" gives no opportunity for selecting the best workmen, the expense of tobacco which their contract compels them to furnish, the dependence of the contractor on the good will of the warden, who can remove his best help at any time, and fill their places with the last recruits from the criminal courts ; the necessity of carrying a large stock and large interest account, waste of material, and poor work. Summing up all these disadvan- tages, a contractor claims that it is not possible for him to produce goods more advantageously than he can with free labor, and that the same energy which secures success in prison would be as well, if not better, rewarded outside. 13 Effect of the Contkact System on Free Labor and THE General Industries of the State. Having thus stated the advantages and disadvantages of the contractor as emphasized by interested parties, the effect of a system of labor so opposed and so defended, upon the general industries of the State and the interests of free labor, follows naturally for consideration. The petition to the General Court which induced the creation of this Commit- tee was signed by three thousand six hundred and three men and women interested in various industries which claimed to have found injurious, competition from prison-labor under the contract-system. The abundance of signatures, and the earnestness with which the matter was urged before the Committee on Labor, seemed to indicate thkt there either was, an evil to be remedied, or that public sentiment believed there was. Hence a large amount of testimony was secured, which will be found appended to this report, all of which came on special invitation, save that of five persons, who could alone be found interested enough to appear after a public hearing was advertised for three days in three news- p'apers of the largest circulation in the State. The testimony of manufacturers and contractors, workmen and philosophers, stripped of its verbiage, and reduced to the level of plain fact, coupled with a thorough weighing of the before-men- tioned advantages and disadvantages of prison-contracts, has. brought your Committee to the opinion that the effect of prison-contracts upon the combined industries of the State is not appreciable. Public sentiment is prone to jump at conclusions ; an* it is but natural that a mechanic who finds it difficult to earn his bread in times of depression should look with hostile eyes at prison competition, when he hears that the market is flooded with convict-made goods. While it is possible, that, under the most favorable circumr stances, a contractor may at times put a certain line of goods upon the market at a lower cost than outside competitors, the disadvantages before enumerated — ignorance, indif- ference, and malice, the expense of instructors and tobacco, the short prison-days, and the poor mental and physical con- dition of many of his workmen — make his advantages over others very slight, and they have doubtless been exaggerated 14 into too much importance. The history of prison contractors the country through shows failures in at least as great pro- portion as among outside competitors, and it is not unfair to assume, from the success of the few, that they would be dangerous competitors anywhere. If prison-contracts have any effect upon free labor, they bear the most heavily upon small industries, like the gilt-moulding trade, which has pro- Toked so much discussion in this Commonwealth. This ndustrr employs but a small number of workmen, and has been liable at all times to be swamped by the addition of a small number of laborers, like women and children, willing to work for cheap wages. So long as it is ' impossible to prevent the concentration of capital, there is little doubt that in this industry, or any other where the market for the wares produced is limited, the big fish will continue to eat the little ones. The introduction into prison of a contract for labor in a special industry which gives employment to but few people outside, is, however, open to objection on many grounds. The range of manufactures is almost unlimited; and, although the introduction of a prison competitor into any branch will usually evoke more or less jealousy, in the great standard manufactures of the State there is certainly room enough for the employment of the small force of con- victs, so long as it is considered expedient to perpetuate the contract system, and make the pecuniary gain of a prison overshadow the reformatory work. Furthermore, if it be at all desirable that a discharged prisoner shall be able to become a bread-earner by a handicraft, there is certainly but little hope fer him, if he is to look for employment at a trade where the whole number employed in the country at Iftrge can be gath- ered into one small factory without crowding. From testi- mony obtained, the most persistent complaints against prison- labor in this Commonwealth come from those engaged in the gilt-moulding trade, either as employers or employes ; but as it has been brought to the attention of your Committee since the appended testimony was given, that the largest firms engaged in this industry outside the prison have entered into a joint agreement in regard to a price-current with the present manager of the Berlin Moulding Contract at Con- cord, it is possible that there will be in the future less com- plaint about prison competition. Other industries claiming 15 to be specially injured by prison-contracts are chair-seating, brush-making, and hat-making. The hat-manufacturers and brush-makers whose testimony could be secured did not, in the opinion of your Committee, show that their business was injured by prison-labor in this State to an extent that would call for legislative interference. The number of convicts employed by contractors is so small, in comparison with outside workers, that it does not appear that these trades are called upon to bear more than their share in the general contribution for the protection of society and the demands of the reformatory part of prison discipline. In these avocations of all others which obtain in our prisons, with the exception of harness-making, the convict seems to approach nearer to the acquirement of a trade which may be the means of future support. So long as no trade can offer a reasonable objection to the apprenticeship of one desiring to learn, and the obligation of self-support rests upon a man, confined or free, it is not unfair to regard convict workers at these industries as apprentices, who have a right to all the privileges of the trade when it has been acquired and the growth of business makes room for them among the workers. There is no doubt but that the concentration of the com- bined labor of the prisoners of the State upon one industry, like fur-felt hatting, could create a competition which would be ruinous to that trade, and would be noticed throughout the country ; but it appears to have been the policy of those in charge of our State Prison contracts to decline letting a very large number of men to one contractor. Whether this is done in deference to public opinion or not, it is doubtless a wise policy, and one which the well-directed efforts of trade organizations will assist in making permanent. In regard to the cane-seating business, which is the popular form of prison- labor in Worcester County and at Bridgewater, the price paid for convict-labor is so low, that a day's earnings will hardly pay the board of a convict. If it be true that the price which is paid for this labor in the prisons is the same that is paid outside, it is apparent that no sound, able-bodied person can afford to work at it ; and there is little of the reformatory element in a system which binds a man for a term of years at an avocation which would not keep him out of the almshouse if he were free. The policy of letting 16 the whole labor of the prisons of a county for a special industry, which is the popular form of employment for crippled men and women and children in that section of the State, is decidedly open to objection ; for there is always danger, where convict-labor is hired by the piece, and not by the day, that prison-prices will become the standard for out- side workers. If the laborers were hired by the day, the result might be otherwise; but it is noticeable that in Worces- ter County chair-seats made in the prison are paid for by the piece; andin Bridge water, by a bungling contract which is wholly in favor of the contractor, the whole laboring force available is taken at a lump price for the year. There are strong grounds for thinking that all contracts for prison-labor should be let at a fixed price for a day's work, and then only after proper public notice that the labor is in the market. It should be said here in passing, that the action of the county commissioners of Worcester County in letting the labor of prisoners to a chair company of which one of the commis- sioners was an oificer, and renewing the same contract with- out publicly advertising for proposals, although doubtless honestly done, as claimed, seems to call for legislative action which shall prevent such transactions in the future, and relieve those who have charge of important county affairs from the shadow of suspicion of sharp practice. In the State Prison, contracts have been made which have no clause giving the State power to annul them. However objectionable such contracts for a term of years may become, there is no relief, so long as the pecuniary payments are kept up. Such bargains are bad, and, carried out to the fullest extent with large contracts, may naturally be expected to lead to a condition of affairs that has existed in other States, giving ground to the popular assertion that contractors, and not the State, control the prisons. While it is possible, under the present condition of affairs, for prison-officers to annoy, and perhaps ruin a contractor, by interference with his work- ing force, it is equally possible for a contractor, under an iron- clad contract, such, for instance, as that of the Waring Hat Company at Concord, to materially affect the discipline of the prison and the moral and physical welfare of the prisoners. It is due to the dignity of the Commonwealth, that it should not by its agents lend itself as a party to any contract which 17 it cannot terminate by a reasonable notice. It is not to be expected that he who buys prison-labor will leave untried any opportunity to promote his own interests; and the agents of the State should be as vigilant in behalf of the interests placed in their charge. Effect of the Contbact SvaffEM upon the Repoema- TION OF THE CONVICT. This phase of the inquiry submitted to your Committee seemed of grave importance, and at all stages of the investi- gation was kept constantly in view. Prison-of3Beials, contrac- tors, ex-contractors, social scientists, and convicts themselves, were interrogated on this point. A glance at the appended testimony will show that almost universally the introduction of contracts into prison compels the eiliployment of persons, styled instructors or foremen, who mingle with the convicts during work-hours, and have immediate oversight of their labor ; these men, varying in number with the extent of the contract, are paid by the contractor, and are ■ entirely in- dependent of the warden or keeper, save that they must be satisfactory to him, and may be dismissed for actions consid- ered detrimental to the discipline of the prison. The prison furnishes an officer to maintain order ; the contractor, in- structors to overlook the work ; and it is patent that the latter must be in communication with the conAdcts far more frequently than the disciplinarian. Testimony shows that in- structors have no power to punish : yet punishment commonly follows their reports of negligence, indifference, or idleness ; and thus indirectly a large portion of the discipline of the prison is in their hands during the hours of labor. Jn this connection it may occur, even to a casual observer, that the presence of an outsider thus introduced is not particu- larly beneficial to the convicts. They are imprisoned for the security of the community, the vindication of the laws, and their own reformation : they are punished, not for actual of- fences against prison-discipline, but because the pecuniary gain of an outside taskmaster (who works them for profit) is lessened by their indifference. It is not, however, wholly on this ground that it appears that the presence of outside parties in a prison is bad. A large measure of prison pun- ishment ordained by law is seclusion from the world and 18 outside influences, and such is impossible while there is a privileged class which comes and goes, bearing news each way, with every facility for nullifying the repressive measures of the best officials, inducing discord, and weakening any effort for reformation. Dangers of such nature cannot fail to be im- minent so long as free instructors are admitted ; and that more damage has not been done is due, possibly, to the vigilance of those who, under the present system, have the duty of watch- ing contractors and their agents added to the ceaseless su- pervision of the prison. A contract system least liable on this score would be that wherein the work is entirely super- vised by prison officials; but such an arrangement would hardly be possible, unless certain trades were permanently ordered for a prison. At present, the presumed popular demand for economical management would be held up as an insuperable bar against such an increased cost as prison-paid instructors would entail. The present contracts at Concord and some other institu- tions provide that contractors shall furnish tobacco to their convict workmen. This is looked upon as a tax in lieu of rent from the contractors' stand-point, and in testimony is re- garded as a stimulus for calling forth more work. It appears, also, that meritorious convicts (and it is not unfair to suppose that such are those who do the most work) are given fruit as well as tobacco. Passing over the question whether the tobacco stimulant is any more entitled to rank as a prison necessary than the alcoholic, there appear to be serious ob- jections to the present way of distribution. It is said by one witness that " tobacco is the currency" of the State Prison. Currency implies barter, and barter implies communication, and all the evils that the latter entails. The source of the currency is the contractor's pocket-book. Incentives given for work cannot but unfairly affect the slower men, as the amount of labor done by the nimble and quick-witted, under the stimulus of bribes, naturally fixes the stint. The fear of the solitary cell, or loss of commuted time, ought to be suffi- cient to drag a fair day's work out of the unwilling, if not, the whole system of rewards, as well as punishments, seems to belong in the hands of the master of the prison, and nowhere else. With the tobacco-tax and fruit-bribery out of the way, a contractor can afford to pay more for ths labor of his men. 19 and the extra amount ought certainly to be enough to pay for the luxuries, and allow them to reach the prisoner through his keeper. It has been stated, that, in this Commonwealth, contract- labor implies the congregation of convicts in common shops, where the subdivisions of trades are carried on under the eye of guards and taskmasters. Those young in crime, and grizzled offenders, toil together at the bench and machine, nominally deaf and dumb, but in reality alert and cunning. There is no human power vigilant enough to prevent com- munication between novice and pariah; and communication is usually contamination, which deepens depravity, and too often changes accidental into positive criminals by the mere force of association. The testimony of experts is conclusive, that but twenty-five per cent of State Prison inmates are pos- itive or incorrigible criminals ; and when the fact is taken into consideration, that, in such institutions, the average age of the convicts is hardly twenty-six years, the result of herd- ing the novice and the abandoned, even at severe toil, can- not fail to be pernicious in the extreme, and prove to aug- ment the festering and fermenting mass of crime which poisons our larger cities, and sends its tentacles far out into the country to grasp and morally kill. Add to the evils of congregation the before-mentioned fact that the system of labor is not such as to awaken enthusiasm, develop dormant good intentions, or clear the way to a more promising future, and there are few grounds for expecting that our correctional institutions will be little less than houses of detention, and steady feeders of the stream of criminal life which ebbs and flows from county to county, and State to State, each element in it imbibing new depravity from the others, adding yearly to the public burden, and the population of the jail, the prison, the almshouse, and the asylums, while the present system prevails. He who attempts to sow good seed on soil, poisoned by the daily associations of a prison where the. indiscriminate congregate system is established, must la,bop almost in vain. Of course, a system of work done on publii^ account would be open to the same objection, so, long as, there is no classification of convicts. The influence of the congregate system aippea,rs even worse in county institutions than in the 'State Prison. Those 20 who have 'been sent to Concord naturally will be expected to more frequently rate as incorrigibles, and be less dangerous to each other, than the inmates of houses of correction ; but it is claimed by Mr. Wright, and others who have made criminal statistics a study, that but twenty-five per cent of the men under sentence in the State Prison can be classed fairly as positive criminals. The others are accidental crimi- nals, or those who have fallen into evil ways through poverty, ignorance, neglect, hereditary weakness, and other causes, and are fit subjects for reformatory effort, with the promise of a fair degree of success. The houses of correction appear to be little better than breeding-places for criminals. With sentences varying from thirty days for petty offences, to five years for serious crimes, the inmates are herded in the workrooms, and often in the cells ; and the result is a constant current of recommitments, or promotion to the institution at Concord. The testimony of the sheriffs and jail-keepers of Worcester, Essex, and Bris- tol Counties, are suggestive in this particular, and especially emphatic in criticism of the statute which makes simple drunkenness punishable with imprisonment, in default of the means with which to pay a fine, and thrusts into association with gross criminals a large percentage of men whom a few dollars would have saved from the contamination which must follow intercourse at the bench and in the cell. Fur- ther, the committals for intoxication, and infractions of law growing out of intoxication, average, by the testimony of prison-keepers, about sixty per cent of those sent to these county institutions. This class complicates the labor ques- tion, as well as heaps up the cost of these prisons ; and it is a question open to argument, whether it is expedient to confine inebriates with depraved criminals at an immense cost to the public, and assist in turning them into thieves and vagrants, so long as the sale of liquor is a legalized business, and the State derives a revenue therefrom. Under the present sys- tem, an honest man who accidentally becomes intoxicated, and lacks ten dollars or less, is no better than the expert pickpocket, the till-tapper, or the wife-beater. Whether he goes to prison, or not, depends on the greed of a village con- stable for his fees, and the mercy of a police justice, in haste to complete his court duties, and attend to his main business. 21 » Sweeping so many men and women into prison for intoxica- tion must necessarily degrade them, degrade their families, open all the avenues for further contamination, and most certainly reduce the price paid for contract-labor in prison ; for short-term prisoners are good for nothing in a trade they never learned before their commitment. The effect of con- vict-labor upon free labor would hardly be worth a moment's attention in this State, if the county institutions were not mainly temporary inebriate asylums. The relief from this is obvious, and lies mainly in the line of moral reform among the laboring classes ; for but few men or women of wealth or social influence are found in prison for drunkenness, not coupled with more serious offences. Ability to pay a fine means, ordinarily, freedom from the discipline of a jailer. The Advantages oi? Peison Labor, if any, over Free Labor in the Matter of Profit on Manufactures. This question submitted to your Committee has already been discussed in speaking of the effect of prison-labor upon the general and special industries of the State. The FEASiBiLiTf of abolishing the Contract System, AND SUBSTITUTING SOME OtHER, WHEREBY THE PROFIT SHALL GO TO THE StATE. There is no doubt but that from an economic point of view, as economy is generally understood, the contract system has strong reasons for its popularity with prison managers. If prisons are to be managed with the least expense commensu- rate with ordinary humane treatment, a system which allows the labor of convicts to be hired in large blocks, and paid for at a price which will help provide their board and clothes, is simple,- and easily understood. Prison-sentences order labor, and labor is recognized as a reformatory agent ; but without the contract-system there would be but two courses open for the State, — to employ convicts in making goods for the State to sell in open market, or to keep them in idleness, with an assurance of its evil results. The manufacture of goods on public account with a view to profit has been tried, and is in vogue to-day in some prisons in the Commonwealtli. In a large prison, that system requires a heavy plant and large yearly outlay, and the result will be, that the State 22 • comes directly into competition with its own citizens. 'Of coutse, the presence of outside agents in a prison is not ne- cessary under such a system ; but prison officials must be business men of experience and skill, and as alert as outside manufacturers with whom they come into competition, to in- sure any degree of profit for their products. The history of the public-account system has usually been that of pecuniary loss in the end, perhaps held off for a time by a system of doubtful book-keeping, which never tells its correct story, until death, or a removal from office, changes the prison admin- istration. The policy of keeping prisoners idle is not worth considering ; for there are few so cruel as to wish for a return to the barbarous days which permitted a wretch of too often scanty mental resources to brood in solitude over his crime and imprisonment until he blazed into insanity, or sunk into apathetic idiocy. In a small prison, with honest officials over long-term men, it is possible that the manufacture of certain lines of goods on public account might be as profitable to the State as a simple sale of convict-labor ; but in a large prison the difficulty of securing a competent manufacturer and dis- ciplinarian combined, and a certain clashing of authority if a double-headed system prevailed, must always militate against any move in that direction. Temptations, too, are great ; and the history of such undertakings the country through, although there are shining exceptions, pointedly proclaims that human frailty is never so apparent as when the public service is in- volved. With the same temptations to overwork, and make a good exhibit for the State existing, there are no grounds for belief that a public-account system, managed with a view to profit, would exert any more powerful reformatory influence than that which now prevails. The chief redeeming feature has been mentioned, — the absence of necessity for outside instructors, whose places might be supplied by a judicious selection of convicts, as at South Boston, and thus one source of many evils be removed. Any system which permitted the manufacture of wares in prison, and their sale in open market at competitive rates would fall under the ban of popular dislike. Wares with the prison stigma upon them, whether sold at wholesale, re- tail, or floated by an annual auction, must evoke complaints from the working-classes, unless better made, and held reso- 23 lutely at higher prices, than the products of free labor. By such a course of procedure there wquld doubtless be an interest account added to other prison expenses, which would ultimately appall the tax-payers, and call for legislative inter- ference. While the idea of pecuniary gain remains upper- most in the problem of prison management, it is doubtful if any system can be devised so simple and economical as the contract. There is, however, another phase of the question of greater importance, in the opinion of your Committee, than an imme- diate return of dollars and cents. As before stated, under the contract or public-account system ■ for direct profit, the reformatory agencies of a prison play but a petty part ; and honest labor is disgraced both by formula of sentence and the routine of prison. It is unjust and impolitic that the law should by implication treat labor as a degradation. The safety of life and property does not depend so much on the strength of prisons and the severity of. discipline as it does upon the depletion of the criminal class in the community ; and it is not pleasant to contemplate the fact that the insti- tutions of this Commonwealth, with the exception of those at Sherborn, Westborough, Lancaster, and one or two county juvenile correctionals, are penal rather than reformatory It is true that all have at stated intervals the services of a chap- lain, a library, religious and morally instructive periodicals, and, perhaps, some other beneficial agencies which are chiefly heard from by the few complimentary lines in a warden's report; but that reformatory work to amount to a great deal is done, except at Sherborn, appears by no testimony that your Committee could secure. If some chance shots have pierced stony hearts, the prison-keepers do not appear to know it. The carelessness of public sentiment permits our county institutions to be considered a species of criminal hopper, in which more or less convicts are to be received, sobered, cleaned, fed, worked, and turned loose, to grow from bad to worse, or worse to better, as they please. This, perhaps, grows out of the system which permits the selection of prison-officers, not on account of intrinsic qualifications acquired by the study of crime and its causes, but because by political success they are sheriffs or sheriff's deputies. Oceasionally a good man is brought to the surface in this 24 way ; and your Committee have been happy to meet such, and hear the story of willing hands tied by force of circum- stances. The growth of the crime-class in America is appall- ing, and in Massachusetts it is sufficiently large to excite apprehension. On Oct. 1, 1879, as shown by appended table, there were 5,558 inmates of the Tarious prisons and reformatories of this State; but that number is doubtless only a fraction of the criminal class, or those likely to become criminal by the contamination of association. To punish crime, and vindicate the law, is a duty of the State. To guard the public morals, and make its citizens fit members of civilized society, is another duty plainly defined and admitted. If the point is well taken that the latter duty ends as soon as a person is convicted of a crime, strictly penal discipline is right; but, without departing a step from the proposition that crime should never be condoned, but promptly pun- ished, your Committee suggest that the highest type of prison management, and that in the end most economical in its method, and most profitable to the Commonwealth, is that which aims to make the moral regeneration of the prison the primary object of confinement. The same phi- lanthropy which seeks to banish the shadows of insanity, and clear the veil from the eyes of the blind, can find enlarged scope in efforts to make good citizens of those, at least, who have taken the wrong course for the first time. It is cheaper to save a man who has gone wrong, and make him and his posterity self-supporting, than it is to leave him to drift into the criminal whirlpool, and then be compelled to maintain him and his children in prison, almshouse, or asylum, for a generation or more. It is a poor investment for the State, if its prisons are to be simply the reservoirs out of which may flow a constant stream of outlaws, who will prey upon society in perpetual antagonism to establisljed laws, and add others to their number, who, from mental or physical weak- ness, are unable to escape from bad influences. But little is done in the county institutions to prevent them from becom- ing mere normal schools for the education of criminals. Under the congregate and ungraded system in Massachu- setts, the fact that " individuals are differently constituted, act from such varied motives, are influenced by such oppo- 25 site energies, develop such contrasts of character, are liable to different conclusions from known facts, are unequal to even plausible reasoning, of one-sided or misshapen mental condition, ignorant of moral principles, urged to acts by a controlling power that they can neither resist nor compre- hend, so mistakenly calculate chances, give no serious atten- tion to probabilities, overlook the consequences of motives in operation, or their action, apply so differently what has been taught them, are so differently impressed with what is called education, form such divergent purposes in life, forego all attempts at reflection, believe in the certainty of the present, and reject any consideration of the future, regard in such different light the needs of acquiring a business or avoc9,tion that will afford an honest livelihood, hold in various forms of prejudice the need of acquiring a trade-knowledge, find parental restraint so uncongenial as to be in some sort a tutelage or slavery, form such erroneous estimates of self- government" (Vaux), is never taken into consideration so far as adults are concerned, save at the Women's Prison at Sherborn ; but all are swept into a common vortex to be treated as if there was but one mind and disposition. While the prison is not the place for mawkish sentiment, the convict has the right to have his manhood saved, if possible. The claims of humanity are entitled to the same recognition as the claims of justice, no more, no less j and the protection of society is secured by the temporary confinement of criminals, and the depletion of the criminal class by rescuing those who are gravitating towards it. The prison burden is heavy upon the public purse to-day ; but the cost and maintenance of correctional institutions is but trivial in comparison with that of the vicious outside of prisons, who have a method of reaching into the pocket of every citizen. If reformation is not to be a primary object of prison discipline, then exter- mination of the depraved, however cruel that may seem, is the only security against the depredations of positive out- laws, and such seems to be the object of the custom which prevails in those States where convicts are hired by con- tractors for the severest toil in the field and forest. Labor is recognized as a reformatory agent the civilized world over, and, as a sequence, the State seems bound to provide that kind. .which, .will. .be. most, salutary in its 26 effects, and likely to be in demand when a convict again goes but to care for himself, in order that he may be self- supporting, if he choses, and not be able to plead that want and enforced idleness left him no alternative but beggary, or offence against property. Under the present system there appears but little hope for a prisoner to become self-sustain- ing by a trade learned in prison. The subdivison of work in all the leading industries introduced into our public insti- tutions prevents the prisoner from learning but a fragment of a trade. For instance, at East Cambridge the attention of your-Committee was directed to a convict who was em- ployed from day to day boring the hole through the handle of a shoe-brush ; at Springfield several employees in the har- ness shop were occupied in making waxed-ends ; at Concord the comfort of the occupants of the pig-pens interested a number. In all the institutions visited, instances of the same kind, not particularly mind-inspiring, were frequently ob- served. Men and women popularly supposed to be enjoying the reformatory effect of labor to its fullest extent were doing nothing capable of moulding character, or laying the founda- tion for honest industry in the future. Whatever effect there is in monotonous industry under the eye of a task- master, which stupefies rather than enlivens the intellect, these men experience ; but there is nothing hazarded in say- ing that any system which forces the imprisoned to devote his eight hours of labor to the twentieth part of a shoe- brush, in spite of chaplain, books, and library, will never plant the seeds of a better future in a dull mind, develop or restore self-respect. The bent of the testimony of experi- enced prison-officers is, that^ with but a few trifling excep- tions, convict-labor under the present system, whether by contract or public account, is of little or no aid to a man after his discharge ; that but few men are known to gain employment at the business they followed in prison ; and that so far as prison industry is concerned, leaving out of con- sideration the habit of persistent toil which restrictive dis- cipline enforces, prison-work is no factor to be counted in the possible future welfare of a convict. At the moment of discharge from the State Prison, the five dollars and suit of clothes provided by the State constitute the flimsy barrier between a man and another crime^ unless the Agency for 27 Discharged Convicts assists him with advice and tools ; and an offer of the latter, under the present system of the division of labor, must be rather in the nature of a mockery. There is nothing to help a man discharged from a county institu- tion which appears in testimony. Friendless, without a trade, and softened in muscle by confinement varying from a few months to a term of years, there is little for him to look forward to but beggary or crime, and a speedy recom- mitment to swell the expenses of the county. Labor even of this kind, which only wearies the muscles, and trains the eye, hand, and brain to travel in one monotonous groove, is preferable to idleness, which unnerves and destroys, b.ut from its nature awakens no spirit of manliness, nor serves to make a better citizen, nor braces a convict to meet temp- _ tations and embarrassments when he begins anew the strug- gle for existence. It only remains for your Committee to suggest that a broader view be taken of the relation between the future welfare of the convict and his labor while in prison, in order that prison discipline shall come. nearer to the solution of the problem, " How to prevent crime, how to cure it, and how to hinder its re-appearance." The first step would seem to be a classification of convicts, so that the influence of incor- rigibles may not so powerfully militate against efPorts to reform accidental criminals ; the second step, the introduc- tion of a greater number of industries into the prison, and the abolition of the system of the subdivision of labor, so that each discharged man shall be fortified by the knowledge of a trade. In no other way can the convict be made more easily interested in his own improvement, and helped to become a better citizen. It may be urged that classification is impossible under the present system ; but legislation can devise a new system, whereby the old prison at Charlestown may be used for incorrigibles, and the Concord prison, for first-offence men, or those in the opinion of the court worthy of special effort for their salvation. Opening such a reforma- tory, not only for a grade of convicts now sent to Concord, but certain classes now confined in houses of correction, would afford an opportunity for the employment of that sys- tem, wherein, in the words of the International Prison Con- gress held at London in 1872, " Hope mast always be a more 28 powerful agent than fear," and should be constantly sustained " by a system of reward for good conduct and industry, whether in the shape of a diminution of sentence, a partici- pation in earnings, a gradual withdrawal of restraint, or an enlargement of privilege." In the United States this is comprehensively known as the Elmira plan before mentioned, and implies dependence on moral forces and motives so far as they have weight in maintaining discipline, and the iron hand of physical force in times of extremity. A very im- portant factor in this system is the indeterminate sentence. The old prison at Charlestown — a valuable piece of property, now making but .poor returns to the State — is admirably located, and at present waiting to be utilized as a place of confinement for depraved, desperate, and positive convicts. If it were necessary'to construct another buLlding^ your Committee might, perhaps, hesitate to strongly urge the gradation of convicts, although the claim of humanity, as well as an assurance of a final saving to the State, might induce them even then to press the matter upon the atten- tion of the Legislature. This prison, however, stands empty. The classification of convicts, as a salutary measure, is em- phasized by distinguished men who have made penal institu- tions the study of "a lifetime ; and an honest effort to view the prison problem in all its phases possible during the recess has compelled the conviction that a division of con- victs between Concord and Charlestown would add but little to the public burthen, would ultimately lighten it, would be better for the prisoners, the people who suffer from the criminal classes, and the State, which may in this way follow, where it has not led, in the direction of an attempt at moral reform among those who appear worthy of the trial. In such a system, productive labor is a prominent factor in building up or restoring honest manhood, and. it is possible with it to advance a step farther, and give the earnest, striving prisoner a percentage of his earnings, instead of a narcotic bribe. It is worthy of mention, that, even in pagan Japan, the latter practice is established, and convicts are allowed ten per cent of their annual earnings for them- selves or their families. The success of this classification must depend upon the individual study of each case before and -after conviction, with a view to a knowledge of peculiar 29 organizations and mental characteristics, and the restraining hand which follows the prisoner beyond the prison-walls to bring him back to begin the struggle again, if he fails to become a worthy member of society. If the State fails in its effort to impel a prisoner to self-exertion after a better and more useful life, it has the consciousness that it has tried to do its full duty in the reformatory prison, and has the penal prison and the insane-asylum left as a final resort for the restraint of those who will not or can ngt take care of them- selves. The true policy of the State in its dealings with wayward and unfortunate citizens is that based upon the teachings of God-given humanity ; and the same attention which is given the insane will tend not only towards decreas- ing the average prison population, but the amount and results of convict-labor of any kind, and relieve free labor from its competition. In case the present system is to remain as the best the wisdom of the State can devise, there is one avenue open to convict-labor which is utilized but little ; viz., the employ- ment of short-term, weak, and crippled prisoners upon the soil. At Bridgewater and Ipswich, Deer Island, and the Westborough Reformatory for Boys, this form of labor has been tried, and proved not only possible, but also profitable. A certain percentage of convicts in the county institutions can find work at tilling and clearing the soil for the larger portion of the year, and contribute to their own support in this manner as well as, if not better than, 'in any other. The avocation is healthful and educational, bringing a man per- haps nearer a realizing sense of the bounty of divine Provi- dence than any other pursuit. If a success in one place, it can be the same in another with a similar class of convicts. At various prisons inspected by your Committee the pigstye was a prominent object of interest, proved by the pride with which its inmates were exhibited and petted. A handsome vegetable-garden, promising rich returns, and a saving to the public purse, would be no meaner attraction, and well worthy of exhibition and praise. Doubtless a little more sunshine, and a little less pork and tobacco, might be of moral as well as physical benefit to the imprisoned, and as profitable to the Commonwealth. In all cases, prisoners should never be kept in idleness. It is as demoralizing when their wages are paid 30 by a contractor, and they lie still, as it is when there is no pretence at employment. In conclusion, your Committee would submit, that, under the present system, the prisons of the Commonwealth appear in the main well managed by those who try to do the best they can with the limited opportunities at their disposal ; but, as a question of ultimate economy, they are impressed with the belief, that, the more complete and effective the reformatory process, the less likelihood there is of the return of a pris- oner to his former habits ; the broader and better the indus- trial system, the more hope there is of changing bad men into good men, and protecting society by the moral regenera- tion of those not positively vicious, but prone to become offensive by the lack of wholesome preventive agencies. The following tables show the number of persons under prison-discipline in this Commonwealth on Oct. 1, 1879, the industries which occupied the attention of the convicts, and the contract prices, earnings, and expenses of each institution. The number of unemployed at contract work is also given ; and included in it are those working at public account, either at manufacturing, farming, or the duties of the prison. For the second and more comprehensive series of tables the thanks of your Committee are due to Carroll D. Wright, chief of the Bureau of Statistics of Labor of this Common- wealth. Appended will also be found a valuable plea for a technical education in reformatories, contributed by Edward Atkinson of Boston in response to request. It is indorsed by Professor Rogers of the School of Technology, E. R. Mudge of Boston, and others. Respectfully submitted. ASA P. MORSE, WILLIAM TAYLOR, of the Senate. CHARLES H. LITCHMAN, HAMILTON A. HILL, JAMES H. MELLEN, WILLIAM REED, jr., EDWIN W. MARSH, of the Souse. 31 Table No. 1. — Industries in which Convict Labor is employed. INDUSTRIES. Whole No. Employed. Males. 232 232 119 119 484 484 296 276 117" 114 63 63 143 133 366 366 275 275 68 - 19 - 48 48 871 627 70 25 - 14 14 40 40 19 19 Females. Hats .... Gilt mouldings Boots and shoes , Bruslies .... Harnesses Stone-yard Slippers .... Cane-seating chairs Clothing .... Crocheting, knitting, etc. Laundry .... Leather .... Prison duties . Woollen shirts Hosiery .... Printing .... Cleaning silk . Halters for horses . 20 3 10 68 19 344 70 25 32 Table No. 2. — Industries of the Various Prisons. INDUSTEIKS. Males. Fern. Total. Contraot^Prioe. Hats. State Prison, Concord Gilt Mouldings. State Prison, Concord Boots and Shoes. State Prison, Concord . Pittsfleld Jail Plymouth Jail . . ■ . New Bedford Jail . . . . Lawrence Jail Slippers. House of Correction, So. Boston . Brushes. State Prison, Concord . House of Correction, E. Cambridge, Habnesses. House of Correction and Jail, Springfield State Prison, Concord . Stone Cutting. House of Industry, Deer Island . Chaib Cane-Seating. House of Correction and Jail, Worcester House of Correction and Jail, Fitchburg House of Correction and Jail, Greenfield State Reform School, WestboTOUgh, House of Correction and Jail, Dedham State Workhouse, Bridgewater . Clothing. House of Correction, So. Boston . Crocheting and Knitting. Prison for Women, Sherborn Laundry. Prison for Women, Sherborn • Leather. House of Correction, Ipswich Woollen Shirts. Prison for Women, Sherborn Halters fob HorseS. House of Correction and Jail, Northampton .... 232 - 232 119 - 119 245 79 15 75 70 - 245 79 15 75 70 35 35 16 260 20 16 280 103 11 3 106 11 63 - 63 109 - 109 39 - 39 22 60 - 22 60 60 76 - 60 76 275 - 275 - 68 68 - ' 19 19 18 - 4S - 70 70 19 - 19 60c. per day. 50c. per day. 50c. per day. $15 per quarter. 17c. per day. Public account. 15o. per day. 60c. per day. 50c. per day. Public account. 12c. per day. 50c. per day. Public account. 2| to 5io. per cane-seat. 3 to 10c. per cane-seat. 3 to lOo. per cane-seat. 4i to 6ic. per cane-seat. 4 to 6c. per cane-seat, $1,000 per year for 100 men or more. Public account. 9c. per day. 30c. per day. 14c. per day. 4c. per day. a year. 33 Table No. 2. — Industries of the Various Prisons. — Concluded. INDTISTEIES. Males Fern. Total. Contraot-Piloo. Cleaning Silk. State Primary School, Monson 40 _ 40 10c. per pound. Pbinting. House of Befonnation,Deer Island, 14 14 Public account. Hosiery. State Industrial School, Lancaster, Prison for Women, Sherborn - 25 39 25 89 18o. per day. lOo. per day. 34 5 |-? 2S lO t- OS CO t- CO o Ol lA § o CO t- o 5S o o CO o 00 (N ■g i-_| t^ 00 T-( t- 00 o cq ^ ^ 00 1 ' 01 co o b- ilr: t— oS Expenses stltatioi entlmg i 1^ (M CO ^ CO CD o O CO p. 0" cq" S & 1 g I 1 o 1 8 CS o 1 1 & 1 & 1 a u C3 § 41? •tl ^3 M o ft p c3 1 ^O o a 1 Ill 13 o r a 1 P4 ( . g 1 P4 s 3 S 3 S' a 5^ 1 tH o o t- *H 1-i 05 o 3 S CO 1-1 1-1 CO Ttl t-I 3 s ?1 lO JO 00 CO CO ^ t^c, g 1 o 1 1 1 1 1 r t-* 1 I 1 I 1 1 CM IC £ 1-t s o O o 1 CO ■* CO 1 1 IQ 1 i CO 1 i-H CO CO iH t- t^ t=> <# 1 CO N ^11 o o o 1 CO •* CD I t- IQ 1 I CO ~T i o CO 00 «o CO iH iS s t* S ^ ,° S§ ^ :^ ujo _ i iO IN tH CO CO CO (M I l-( lO 1 10 1 t- rH •>* (N (M CO (N (N « ^1 S CO 1 « 00 CO IC CO *-l ^ 1 1 »o 1 1 C^ t- (N iH lO <3i 0:1 to « s 3 (N 1-1 iH S ,M 00 O o CO OS -* CO 1 tH O 1 10 1 b- CO o CO CO t- CO in C^ b- d S ■* iH r-t CO r-l i-i ^ ^ s in S ^ s « S S g S CO ¥5 « *s iH 1 c. ^ ■ S CO O CO -o t- iM CO 00 i CO 00 CI CO cq CO 00 »c i-H 00 l- CO > c s "o 5C 3 1 ■s 1? 5 (3 o Mo P II 5 OH « is 1 ^a olz; o ^ 1 1 W w w W m M ' b H M 35 !gS?SSSSSE:S g S § 3 ^S ^' S;5DIOgTHCO^,-IO> S s « j5 jom j5 X-*-*CQ»OTH(MCaeO <0 rH t^ CC^ ^'^ CO^ «r l?r oq' ig" (m" (~r lO to iH »H m ooT •dl" ^ tH iH r^ rH gl lO Srt ^ y-i p- » 6* '^<='rifc*^°o^«o lO 05 0(M CJ wocqeooorHOiio »o O OlO ,-iOO«l-lQ(Mlo ' 1 1 O O ©CO 3,15 1,28 2,32 5,30 2,58 34 65 3,48 CO 00 CI r-- (N t^ T-tO lo" CO T-T -. t- en iH m e^ 5ic. per cane-seat, per year . . per day per quarter . lOo. peroane-seat, . per day 1 10c. per cane-seat, , per day 1 1 e-seat, d for osiery. per can r poun ng silk ^ay on h 1 1 § ail O .S0^ -*aOt;»OOoHo i J"C -i!«aiNni-^i^""o m«©ih€^co»hccio ■*'-'" ^ en J-; 00 1 j5 t- g 1 lO IM •■^ CO 1C5 1 ta T-l iH (N 1 1 CO 1 J - r 1 1 1 S ' ' s 8 tH o« gsssssss? ' 1C3 O O 1 10 •H r-l CD a i-f (N gjoicoa>05»o(Neo i in o o »o Q OiHOt-COiHfMC^ CD CD Tt* 04 tH r-l CD l-H n" cq* n iH t- i-t 1 1 -4 irH •■H •!-• n (pH S S^sSSSscsots a », » 5 ^ HS h-s 1-3 _l-s ,1-5 ,lTI .l-S _.55 .1-5 1-5 . i -^ -s -i. ■ 1 =■ 1 1 pa • 2 • '.d • f^ "i^ 'f^ 'tf f^ t3 'Ti «^ '3 aadaada"fl an ' ouse of Correction a Worcester ouse of Correction ai Northampton ouse of Correction a Springtield . ouse of Correction a Pittsfield ouse of Correction a Pitchburg ouse of Correction a Plymouth ouse of Correction a Greenfield assachusetts State Concord ouse of Correction a Barnstable . ".2 •Total, Jails and Correction . State Reform Scl borough . State Primary Scl son . State Industrial Si caster . --oS County Jai House of C Nantucki HMKHnRngn TESTIMONY GIVEN BEFORE JOINT SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON CONVICT LABOE. Thttbsdat, Oct. 16, 11 A.M. TESTIMONY OF M. V. B. BERRY. M. V. B. Beert sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What is your position in connection with the House of Correction at South Boston ? A. Master. Q. What business is carried on in j'our institution ? A. The manufacture of slippers and clothing. Q. What number of convicts have you engaged in each manu- ture at the present time ? A. We have a hundred and seventy-seven working on sewing- machines, eighty finishing, and thirty-five making, slippers. Q. Is this industry carried on by contract, or on public account ? A. The manufacture of slippers is carried on by contract. Q. Where are the products of the manufacture on public ac- count sold? In this market? A. In New York, Portland, and Boston. That is, I suppose, they are sold, a portion of them in New York, Portland, and Bos- ton. The clothing that we make there goes all over the country, — down South, to, California, &c. Q. What is the price that you get at the present time for men let by contract? A. Fifty cents a day. Q. What is the expense of maintaining the convicts per day ? Have you ever calculated ? A. I have that in my report ; but I did not take oflf the figures when I came over here. The report contains a statement of the expense per week and per day. Q. How extensive is the market for the articles manufactured by you? I desire to ascertain to what extent the articles manu- factured bv you interfere with articles manufactured outside. Have you any knowledge of the extent of the market into which your articles go ? A. No, sir, I have not. Q. What would be the effect upon the market of the produc- tion of your institution ? A. I do not think it would have any effect — not of any ac- count. I do not think it would have any. Q. To what extent is your manufacture carried on? to what amount each year in each department? A. About $35,000, 1 should think, we receive on clothing, and about $7,000 from every thing else. The total this year, I think, is $42,000. Q. That would be on clothing. Slippers are on public ac- count? A. Yes, sir. Q. (By Mr. Tatlob.) Did he say slippers were on public account? A. Clothing is on public account. Q. (By Mr. Moese.) Did you say that $42,000 was on clothing? A- The whole is $42,000. Q. Including slippers? A. Yes. Q. "What would be your opinion in regard to that amount affecting the general industries of the State ? A. I do not think it would affect them any. If this clothing were not made at the institution, most of the,work would be done outside of the State. Parties that I am taking work from now are getting work done outside of the State. Consequently, what I do is really gain ; it is money that is left in the State. I know that there are parties that I am working for — lots of them, most of them — are sending work to Maine to get it done. Q. But for you, the work would not come to this market at all ? A. I do not think there would be any of it, hardly, unless I did it. I am using heavy machines, and it would be impossible for women to make overalls as I do. They could make light pants and shirts ; but my work is heavy, — satinet shirts and heavy wool- len shirts, the most of them. It could not be done on small machines operated by women with foot-power. If I did not do the work, they would send it out of the State ; so that the work that I am doing is really a gain to the State. I am working for New-York parties, and doing a good deal of work for them. I am working for Portland parties. They send the material here, and I make it up, and send it back to them. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) You say that you make clothing for New-York and Portland parties. Do you make that to sell? A. No : they send the materials, and I make them up. They give me so much a dozen for making them. We do not buy any goods to make up to sell. Q. You make no goods to sell? A. Not at all. All that we buy is trimmings when parties want us to do that. Q. I understood you to say that you sold $35,000 worth. A. Oh, no ! That was received for work done. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) You have a part on public account? A. Yes. Q. To what extent is that part carried on ? A. That public account is trimmings, — the goods that we have to furnish to trim the articles that we make ; that is, after we buy, to cut them up, and trim other goods. That amounts to about $7,000 a year. Q. That does not come in to compete with outside work? A. No, sir: that is only to trim our own work. They send a case of goods — tan duck — just as it comes from the mills, and they want me to make, finish, and ship the overalls to them in dozens. I get the trimmings, cut them up and make them, and ship the goods, charging them so much for trimmings, and so much for work on overalls. Mr. Hill. Allow me to say. If I understand Capt. Berry, they do not carry on work on the public-account system as we generally understand it ; as, for instance, in the Eastern Peniten- tiary. Q. (By Mr. Moese.) I was trying to get at the amount done on public account. You simply purchase some trimmings ? A. Yes ; buttons, thread, &c. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) That is merely an incident in the way of making these goods ? A. I get so much for making overalls, putting them in dozens, and shipping them, and I charge so much a dozen for making and trimming. Some goods come to me ready to make and trim ; then I charge so much for making, and nothing for trimming. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) From your knowledge and experience, what IS the effect of the contract system on the reformation of the convict? A. Well, I do not think it has so good an effect as where we run the prison ourselves, — the same as my institution is run. I think the system there is better for the prisoners than to let them out by contract. 1 think there is better discipline. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Then I understand, that, in your opinion, the public-account system is better than the contract system for the reformation of the convict? A. Yes. Mr. Hill. I think that we shall have to understand among ourselves what is meant by the public account. What I under- stand by it is just as at Elmira, where Mr. Brockway buys the materials, makes them, and sells them. That I call public ac- count. The question is, whether you call it public account where parties in Maine send material to this gentleman, and the people under him cut it up and trim it. I should call that a modified contract sj'stem. Mr. LiTCHMAN. If Mr. Hill will allow me, the point I want to bring out is this : The captain states that in his system (and it is substantially the same in public account) he has exclusive con- trol of all his men ; while under the contract system he would be brought into contact with employees of contractors ; and the captain says, that, under his system, there is a better chance for reformation. Mr. Marsh. He is in fact in the position of a man who has a gang, and takes shoes to make. Mr. Hill. I think we would better not call it public account. Mr. LiTCHMAN. Say, " Under his system." Q. (By Mr. Morse.) You work by the piece, not by contract? A. By the piece or dozen, as you may call it.- Q. That is your system ? A. Yes. Miner, Beal, & Hackett want some goods. I go to 6 them to make a price. If I cut and trim, I make one price : if they want to do that, I make a different price. Q. Then you work, not on contract, or on public account ? A. No : by the piece. We buy no goods to manufacture and sell. Q. Then you hold the opinion that working your men by the piece has a better effect as to reformatory influence than either the contract or the public-account system ? A. I do. Q. From your knowledge and experience, what would you say with regard to abolishing the contract system, so called, and adopt- ing the public-account system ? Which of the two systems would j'ou, from your experience and knowledge, judge to be the better? A. Well, I should say that the public-account system would be the better. Q. In speaking of public account, I do not wish to have it understood that you mean working by the piece, but the ordinary public-account system, so called. A. What do you mean ? — to buy the goods, and manufacture them ? Q. The county to purchase the goods, manufacture thern, and sell them in the market ; or, on the other hand, to contract for men by the day to a contractor. One is called the public-account system ; the other, the contract system. A. I should say that the public-account system was the better, because you can have control of the men yourself, and put in your own instructors ; that is, instructors under your own charge. , If you want an instructor, j-ou can pick him out, as you would an officer, and he will be like an officer. But, if the instructors are under the contractor's control, he gets them where he has a mind to. He does not ask who he is, or where he belongs, because all he wants is a man who understands the business. The master or the warden, of course, has control of the instructors, but not so much so as if he hired them himself. Q. Then j'ou hold the opinion that the agents or instructors sent there by contractors are detrimental to the reformation of the convicts ? A. I do, from the experience that I have had. Q. That, on the other hand, if the instructors were under the control of the warden, the influence exerted by them under his direction would be better than under the other system? A. I do. A great many times you can work in a prisoner as an instructor, as I do. I have but one hired man in all my cloth- ing department. He is a cutter, and all my instructors are pris- oners. If a man has worked on clothing six months, is a good, smart fellow and a good prisoner, when one of my instructors goes out, I put him up, and he goes around instructing others. No outside man has any thing to do with it.' I have a foreman to see that the work is done properly, and the right goods are sent off; but the instructors are prisoners, and all my cutters are prisoners. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) All of them ? A. Every one. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) I wish to inquire whether or not the appointment of the convicts as instructors, as you have indi- cated, creates any jealousy among the other convicts ? A. No, sir. Q. You have not found that ? A. No : if he is a good man, there is no jealousy about it, not a bit. I do not put up a man who has not behaved well. If a man is a bad convict, even though he may understand the work thoroughly, I do not put him up. That is the way I keep up my discipline. They notice it ; and many of them try to do the best they can, who might otherwise be very mischievous. They learn to cut, and that is a good trade. I had one man who worked at cutting, and when he got out he went to the clothing-store, and is making twenty or twenty-one dollai-s a week. He never knew any thing about the trade before that. That is one instance of many. Q. (By Mr. Maksh.) What perquisites, if any, are given to convicts for overwork ? A. There are none. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) None allowed ? A. No. I have a day's work for them to do, and they do it. You cannot fix it exactly : a man must use his judgment about that. Some men may in one shop make seven hundred pairs of - overalls in a daj', and next day the same men may fall oflF fifty pairs. One man may make a dozen pairs in a day, and not more than seven pairs the next day. The reason is not that he is lazy the second day ; but his machine did not run so well. I can tell when a man is working well. You cannot stint them very well, because their machinery will not work the same all the time. Q. (By Mr. Mokse.) There is then no specific task given to the men ? A. No. I make them do a good fair day's work. If. I know a man can do a dozen pairs a day, I expect him to do it, if his machine is all right. And they do it. Once in a while I have to punish a man for being lazy, when I know he is lazy. Then he comes out, and goes and does his work. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) In connection with the question of per- quisites — in the slipper department, is the tobacco furnished by the contractors, or bj' you ? A. By the contractors. Q. A given quantity, and no more ? Are you sure that they do not exceed the allowance ? A. I am. Q. (By Mr. Mokse.) I was about to ask you what amount of labor your convicts perform as compared with persons engaged in the same work outside. Compared with free labor, what amount of labor do the convicts do ? A. What they will average a day ? Q. No. What amount they will do as compared with laborers outside. What portion of a day's work will they perform ? A. Well, I think that a quarter off would be sufBcient. ,Q. Then you think they would perform three-quarters of a day's work, on the average ? A. Very near that, I should think. 8 Q. In that view of the case, do you think that fifty cents a day is sufficient compensation for your prisoners ? A. I think it is, at present, for these times. Perhaps they would not average so high straight through ; perhaps the average would be less the year round. Q. You have a contract for the slipper manufacture ? A. Yes. Q. With whom? A. Mr. J, D. O'Neil. Q. How long ago did you enter into it ? A. I think he has been there between two and three years. He took Mr. Wentworth's place. Q. How long is it to be continued? A. There is no stated time. A» long as he chooses to work there. But any time he is liable to go. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) You stated that the price was now fifty cents : in your report it is stated to be forty cents. A. At that time it was. Q. Has a new contract been made ? A. Yes, on a price. Q, Will you explain why this new price has been made ? A. As times grew better, we thought our men were worth more than they had been. Q. I merely wish to bring out this point, — whether the price was left indefinite, to be changed according to the condition of the market outside ; why, if a regular contract was made, the price could be changed from time to time? A. There was no regular contract made at that time : it was just that he was to have men at a certain price. I do not have charge of that. I think the directors have charge of it. I think it was, that, by giving six months' notice, he could leave ; or that, by speaking to him, we could advance his price. Q. The Board of Directors, then, makes the contract, and fixes the prices for convicts? A. Yes. Q. You do not know whether it is written or verbal?. A. I do not. Q. You have no copj' of the contract? A. No. Q. (By Mr. Tatlok.) You say that the work done by you at the House of Correction, if not done by you, would not be done in the State? A. A great portion of it would be done out of the State. Q. How much machinery do j'ou use in your manufacture of goods at the House of Correction ? A. I have two hundred and forty-nine sewing-machines. Q. I would like to know what your opinion is in regard to the labor-system of the convicts in your institution, — if they were to do their work by hand, which now requires sewing-machines, what the result would be ? A. I do not think I could answer that question. Q. Have you any idea in what way penal institutions could be carried on so as to conflict less with labor outside ? 9 A. You mean to say that j'ou want to know whether my system of work there interferes with outside labor? Q. I would like to know if you have any opinion, from your experience and knowledge, which would be the best way to conduct a prison so as the least to conflict with free labor? A. I think the way I manage mine would be as good as any. Q. Don't you think, that, if machinery were done aiway with, convict-labor would conflict less with labor outside ? A. No, sir. Q. Have you any experience or information upon that point at all? A. No : I have not. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What number of men that you receive into your institution have trades when they enter? Have you any statistics on that point ? A. I think that is in the report. Q. I would ask, then, if the convicts, while in your charge, have an opportunity of learning a trade which might be a benefit to them when they leave. A. They have. Q. (By Mr. Tatloe.) What trade? A. They have the slipper trade, cutting, «&c. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What proportion of the convicts, when they leave, would have a trade suflicient to enable them to procure a livelihood outside ? A. I think half of them ; perhaps more. Q. Is the industry carried on in the House of Correction and outside in a similar manner? A. There is work of the same kind done outside by machinery ; but not so many men ai'e employed in any one place. Q. Do the men, so far as your knowledge extends, run ma- chines outside when they go out? A. Some of them do ; that is, if they choose to. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) I would like to bring out that point a little more clearly in regard to the opportunities of convicts to get employment, after their discharge, at the work on which they were engaged while in the House of Correction. The work, as I understand it, in your institution, is done by men? A. Yes. Q. The machines are run by men? A. Yes. Q. We would like to know how large a proportion of men who do nothing but run sewing-machines can get employment outside, where that work is done by women ? A. They can get work if they choose to. If they do not have any inclination to work, they won't work. Q. I am putting it on this ground: supposing that they have all the inclination, where that branch of industry is monopolized by women, because they can do it for less wages, what opportu- nity is there for a man who knows nothing but to run a sewing- machine to get employment ? A. I think he could. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) There is one question I would like to 10 ask in that connection. Can you tell what percentage of those who serve a term in your institution get back there ; that is, the percentage of recommitments ? A. I could not tell. Q. I ask that, because I want to know what percentage of those who are supposed to have got the means of earning a living get back there. How many men who learn these things avail them- selves of them, and do not get back again into the institution? A. I could not give you the figures. I do not know how many try to get work outside. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) The only point I wanted to make clear was whether the work that these men were doing there (of course your cutters get a trade, and perhaps the heaviest machines cannot be run by women) — A. Women do not run a great many of those machines outside. Q. That was the point. How large a proportion of the men employed in the House of Correction would, in the natural order of things, get employment outside ? A. I do not know that 1 could answer that question. Q. Of course we would not ask you to make an exact answer ; but we would like an approximation. A. I think the majority could get work, if they wanted to. Q. Then there would be a minority, a large minority, who could not get work ? A. I think not. Q. You do not want to put it that way? A. No. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) From your knowledge of convicts, do you think a majority would want to get work when they got out ? A. I think that a majority would not want to. A large majority would rather be idle than at work, I judge, from what experience I have had. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) You feel satisfied in your own mind, that, if they had the disposition to work, they could earn a living by the trade they learn there ? A. I do. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) I would like, with your permission, to ask a question, for I think it is an important point. While I do not ask him to bind himself down to an exact answer, yet per- haps his information upon the point may be of importance. The work is done in the prison by men. Now, I understood the cap- tain to saj' that a dozen overalls a day was a fair day's work. A. Yes, of some kinds. Q. We will say, on the average. Now, if a man can do a dozen pairs a day, of course, if he went at that work afterwards, that dozen pairs would have to support him, and, if he had a. family, would have to support himself and his family. K he got only forty-two cents a dozen — A. He might do more. Q. That was the point I wanted to reach, — in regard to the possibility of his using what trade, or part of a trade, he learned in the institution, after he was discharged. Perhaps you have covered it as fully as you have information, and I do not want to hold you down to a particular statement. 11 Q. (By Mr. Reed.) What is the average price outside, for doing the same work that you do in your institution? For in- stance, if a man makes a dozen pairs of overalls with you, what would he earn outside by doing the same work ? I wish a com- parison of prices. A. Mj' prices are higher than outside prices. That is what they tell me where I make trades. I do not do the work so cheaply as they do outside. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) What is your price? A. 1 have different prices for different goods. Q. You say a man can make a dozen pairs of overalls a day ? A. Of some kinds they cannot make more than half a dozen. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) Take a dozen pairs of the heaviest over- alls that you make, and what would be the price? In other words, what do j'ou get for making a dozen pairs of the heaviest and costliest kind ? A. As high as three dollars. Q. What can a man outside get for making that dozen pairs ? A. I do not think he would make any more. I do not know what they are paying outside for doing this work. I know that ^ they tell me that my prices are higher than outside. I went to take some work the other day of a man, and I gave my figures. He said, ' ' I can get it done for so and so ; ," and I answered that I had named my lowest price, and that he might go and get it done elsewhere. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) You have no difficulty in getting all the work you want ? A. No : not now. We did have some difficulty two years ago ; but we have had none for a year and a half. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) You say that a dozen pairs of overalls is a fair day's work? A. Yes, some kinds of overalls : of other kinds, two dozen can be made. Q; What I want to get at is this : What would you receive for a dozen pairs of overalls, a dozen pairs of which would be a fair day's work? A. A dollar and a half to two dollars. Q. Then that is what you get for a man's work ? A. They will not all average that. An experienced man will earn that on the machine. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) I want to make clear what propor- tion of that dollar and a half that you estimate is labor, and what proportion is findings. A. What — the dollar and a half? Q. Yes. A. There is very little trimming. Q. It is substantially all labor? Q. Have you any trade-technicality by which we could desig- nate that class of work, so that we could compare it with other work when we have other witnesses before us ? A. I do not know that I understand. Q. I will put it this way: In the overall trade there are certain numbers to designate certain grades. If so, if we are 12 talking about a certain grade, say 5,871, we would like to be able to compare it with 5,871 made by other parties. That is the point. A. No; we do not have such marks. Each concern has its own figures. Q. Could you furnish the Committee with a statement of the different kind of overalls that you make, the amount of trimming you give on each kind, and the amount you receive for labor on each kind ? A. I could not do it now. Q. 1 understand. Can you and will you do it at your conven- ience ? A. I will. Mr. Tatlok. He says it is all labor. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) If Mr. Taylor will allow me to make a suggestion, he will find, when overall manufacturers come before us, that there are different kinds of work done. If we talk with Capt. Berry on a specific kind . of work, and with manufac- turers about a kind which is not similar, and then compare prices, we shall reach wrong conclusions. A. There are a dozen or fifteen kinds of overalls, and there is a great difference in them. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) How many classes of overalls do you make in j'our institution ? A. I could not tell you now. We make a number of kinds. Q. Will you give us the classes that you make, at your con- venience ? A. I will do so. I will give names and prices, if I can. Q. (By Mr. Maesh.) Would it not be well also for him, in giving prices, to put in the cost of trimming, so that we may see the actual value of the labor? A. Certainly. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) I should like to ask the captain what he considers that he gets, on an average, for a day's work in the clothing department. In the slipper department he gets fifty cents, and it used to be forty cents, a day. But I would like to know what he gets, on the average, out of his men. A.. The men that I have working on finishing are men that are good ■^r nothing. You could not put them on contract work. They are broken down, old, eyesight poor, some of them cripples. They could not work on sewing-machines, and their labor would not be worth much. The average from the whole number of men, I could not give you. I could give what they earn on the average off the machines. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) You said that the result of your labor was about so much ? A. Forty-two thousand dollars. Q. I did not know but that he could tell us what he thought he got in value from a day's work from the men employed in that general department? A. I could not. Some make a great deal more than others. Q. I would like to ask whether he finds any prejudice in the market against such goods. Is it more or less easy to sell goods made in public Institutions like his ? 13 A. I know of no such prejudice. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) I would like to ask what proportion of convicts you have that are not able to enter upon the work at once, or in a few days. A. I suppose I have about thirty or thirty-five men that are not able to do any thing at all. Q. I would like to ask how long it takes a new man, on enter- ing, to get so that he understands running machines, or doing the work you have for him. A. Some take a week, and some will do it in four days ; learn to run a machine so as to make pretty good overalls. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Is your prison self-sustaining? A. It is not. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) I would like to ask the average length of the sentences. A. About seven months. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) What is the moral effect of the prison discipline upon the prisoners ? A. The prison contract? Q. The moral effect of the discipline of the prison, and the work carried on, upon the convicts? A. Good. Q. You have not any idea how many return to you ? A. I have not. I could give you that, if you wanted it, on paper, when I get home. Mr. MoKSE. You might add that to your paper. Q. (By Mr. Maksh.) Do you feel sure, that, in your prison, the contractor, who is, of course, in the slipper department, does not offer any inducement for overwork ? A. He does not. I am sure of it. PaiDAY, Oct. 17, 10.30 A.M. TESTIMONY OF CHARLES J. ADAMS. Charles J. Adams sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) ' What is your official position in connec- tion with the Jail and House of Correction in East Cambridge? A. I am deputy jailer, and master of the House of Correc- tion. Q. How long have you been connected with the institution ? A. Twenty-eight years last February. Q. What work do you carry on ? A. Brush-making. Q. Upon what account is it carried on ? A. The county. Q. What may be termed public account? What are the kinds of goods you manufacture ? A. The cheaper grade of brushes. Stove, shoe, and scrubbing brushes are all that we manufacture. No set work, all drawn work. 14 Q. Does the county furnish the capital? A. Yes. Q. What amount of capital has the county invested in the business ? A. My impression is, that, on machinery — Q. Begin with the stock, please? A. Aside from the machinery and engines ? Q, Put it separateljr, if you can. A. Well, I cannot tell that. Our stock is not extensive. We buy a low grade of stock. Q. What amount of stock do you carry ? A. Rough stock, do you mean ? Q. Yes. A. I should judge that we carried not more than $5,000 or $6,000. Q. The cost of machinery and other implements is about how much? A. My impression is, that, when we first started, the county invested some $12,000 or $14,000 for machinery, engine, and boiler. I do not recollect that we have drawn any thing from the county since. If we wanted any machinery, or any thing else, we took the money from the proceeds of the labor of the prisoners ; that is, for stock, &c. Q. Where are your manufactured articles sold ? A. Mostly in New York, South and West. There is one brush concern in Boston that we sell a good many goods to. Manufacturers. Q. Does the sale of your goods come into competition with goods made by outside manufacturers ? A. In Massachusetts ? Q. Yes. A. I do not know of many that manufacture the same class of goods that we do, in Massachusetts ; there is, for instance, Burton's firm. We sell a good manj' of our shoe and scrub brushes to them. Q. (By Mr. Tatlok.) To whom? A. Burton Brothers, I think the name is. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) That is the concern in Boston to which you refer ? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Does the sale of your stock in the market have any injurious effect upon the marliet for outside manufacturers ? A. I do not think it has, because there are not many of them manufacturing, in the first place. The most competition we have is with Western prisons. We do not undersell the manufacturers. Q. The price you obtain for your goods is equal to the market- price outside? A. For those that are manufactured here. Q. So that, when the articles j'ou make go into the market, they are sold as high as the same kind of articles made outside — there is no competition between you ? A. I do not think there is, because we manufacture a different 15 kind of goods. If we should go into paint, whitewash, and set work, there might be competition ; but, with the griade of goods we manufacture, I do not think there is. I am speaking now of Massachusetts. Mr. Tatloe. That is what we are interested in. Witness. The manufacture that we are engaged in requires a good deal more labor, with less capital, than the other manufac- ture. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What is the effect of your system of work upon the reformation of the prisoners ? A. In comparison with other systems, do you mean? Q. G-ive me your opinion in regard to your system ? A. There are some who reform, and others who never will. Q. What other system, if any, do you know of, that will have a better effect upon the prisoners in respect to reformation ? A. I know of none. Q. Does the convict in your institution learn a complete trade ? A. Well, they learn certain branches ; that is, for instance, we put a man into the boring-room, and he learns to bore, — bore the blocks, which is a very good trade. Others we put into the finishing- room, where they learn finishing, which is a good trade. The drawing and other branches are done by different classes of men. If we have a man for thirty or forty days, and he is able to work, we set him to drawing. Some we take from the drawing- room, and send them into the finishing-room. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) I want to ask a question at this point. If I understood the captain, he said that the only competition was from the West. If that is the case, the men who learn a trade with him cannot get any advantage from it in Massachusetts ? Mr. Morse. I was going to bring out that point in a moment. Witness. The boring has to be done in other kinds of work. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) As there is no competition in Massa- chusetts in the kind of work which you do, the men who go to your prison could get no work here when they came out? A. Yes, they could go to other shops, and let themselves as borers, or combers, or finishers. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) The same classes of work are conduct- ed the same inside as out ? A. Boring is the saqje, finishing is the same, combing is the same. Q. And are other parts the same ? A. Drawing is the same, only we make the cheaper brushes. Q. So that when they leave and go out, they can do work at the same branch. A. If they find it to do. Q. What amount of labor does each prisoner do each day ? A. I caiinoL tell that. Q. Do they have a task to perform ? A. They do not. Q. As compared with outside labor, what is the amount of lab(jr done bj- the inmates of j'our institution? A Well, we have shorter hours than they do outside. We do not light up the shops at all. ' 16 Q. What is your judgment with regard to the amount of labor done inside, as compared with the labor done outside by each individual? A. The same class of work ? Q. Yes. A. I think, for the number of hours, they do quite as much with us as outside. Q. What number of hours do your men work ? A. We are governed by the sun. Q, What is the average? A. We do not go to work now until 7.40. We go to the shops and wash up, and then go to breakfast. After breakfast, the men go out, and at 7.40 begin work. Then we have forty minutes at noon, and get locked up by sunset. Q. That would give how many hours on the average ? I want to get at the daily average. Mr. Maksh. Suppose we make two averages, — for summer and for winter. Q. (By Mr. Mokse.) How many hours would you work from the first of April to the first of October? A. We should work ten hours a day, probably. Q. And for the balance of the year, how many hours? A. Probably not more than seven or eight; that is, in the winter season. Q. How many convicts have you that are unfit for physical labor ? A. We have quite a number. We have some who do nothing but pick over beans, or something of that sort. If we put them in the shop, they would spoil more stock than they would make. Then we have a good many cripples, — some with their fingers gone, others old and blind, thirty-daymen, — men that ought to go to Bridgewater instead of coming to us. Q. How long does it take to teach a man to do the work that you require ? A. Some of them dp not learn it at all ; that is, in the brush department. Take a thirtj'-day man. He comes there full of rum, perhaps with delirium tremens, and it takes the whole thirty days to get the rum out of him. When he comes around we send him to picking beans, or something of that sort. We would not put him into the brush-shop. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) What is the average teita that prisoners serve? A. I doubt that our average would be six months. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Then the short-term men you do not consider to be worth any thing. in the brush-factory? A. There are a good many of them that are not worth any thing. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Is the prison self-sustaining? A. Year before last, we paid our expenses. Last year, we ran behind a little. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Will you give me the number of re- commitments to your institution ? A. I cannot tell you that here. 17 Q. Will you give me a statement of that at your convenience, — the number of recommitments ? A. It would be quite a job. We would have to look the book clear through, and then take the prisoners' Word for it. I have had men say that they had been in forty times, and I have no doubt that we have had some a dozen times. Q. Do j'ou keep a record ? .' A. Yes. We ask the question as the men come in ; but, as to the truth of their answer, we must depend on them. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) I suppose j-ou have a theory about it? A. The question is asked of each man, " How many times have you been in prison ? ' ' And the answer is put down as he gives it. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Would you give me the average? A. I would not have the means of knowing, even by the book. We do not ask how many times he was committed there, but how many times he was committed to any prison. If the question was, how many times he had been committed there, we could tell. Q. Will you give us your opinion as to the reformation of the convicts under the contract system, if you have any knowledge upon that point? A. When I first went there, our prisoners were all let on con- tract, and I found it very much more work to take care of the contractors and instructors than of the prisoners, and we abolished the system. They care nothing for discipline, or any thing else, except to make money. Q. Finding that to be so, you abandoned the contract systein for the present county system ? A. Yes. Q. And, since you have adopted this system, j'ou prefer it to the contract system? A. A great deal. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) I understand the captain to say that his objection to the contract 83-stem is, that it interferes with the dis> cipline of the prison ? A. It does. I have had to go in and take an instructor, and lead him out on the street, so drunk that he could not stand. Speak to the contractor, and, oh, he didn't care. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Under the contract system would you, or the instructor, or the contractor, have control of the discipline of the institution ? A. I should be responsible for the discipline. Q. Then in what manner would the pon-discipline of the prisoners come about, if you had the discipline in your own hands, and the instructors had nothing to do with it? A. They would be violating the rules. They would be carry^ ing in things not allowed. The instructors would go in drunk, or have bottles in their pockets, and we could not search them every time. Speak to the contractor, and he would not care. I have had to stop men going in disguised with drink, and the prisoners would know it as quick as anybody. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) From your experience in connection with the contract system so called, and the public-account system so called, which, in your judgment, is the better for the discipline and management of the prison? ■* 18 A. The latter is ever so much better. Q. The public-account system ? A. Yes. Q. That while you have rules for discipline, under the contract system it is very much more difficult to enforce those rules ? A. It is, because the contractors and instructors would be breaking the rules themselves. Q. In a manner that would be very difficult for you to discover? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) I should like to ask a question just there, — whether it would be possible to have the contract system without the intervention of overseers and instructors from outside ? A. I doubt if it would. The contractors and instructors would have to be there, of course. The contractors hire the instructors : the institution does not hire them. Q. You do not think a contract could be made with parties, with the direct understanding that no outside persons should be brought in, except possibly the contractors themselves ? A. Well, it would be difficult. They would have to have in- structors, unless we had prisoners there who had the trade learned. Q. (By Mr. Mokse.) Have you any experience in manufac- turing by the piece ? A. No, sir. Q. Could that be done, in your judgment, to the advantage of the prison, and for the better reformation of the convicts ? ■ A. No r I do not think it could. Our men are changing all the time. There are certain articles that might be done in that way, — manufacturing clothing, &c., — but you could not do it with brushes. Q. I ask your judgment with regard to the feasibility of doing that in any institution, and its effect upon the income of the in- stitution, and upon the reformation of the convicts. A. I do not know why it could not be done well enough, if it were all under the supervision of the master and his officers. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Your judgment is, that, whatever system of employment should be provided for the convicts, it should be under the exclusive control and management of the master and his officers ? A. That is it. Q. That it is detrimental to the discipline of the prison for .outside parties to come in contact with the prisoners at all ? A. It is, as contractors and instructors. That is my experi- ence. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) You say that your business does not icompete with outside labor in Massachusetts ? A- Very little. Q,. It does some ? Do you know of any brush-manufacturers in the city of Boston or the State, who have failed within three years, and have given as the cause of failing the prison manufac- ture of brushes ? A. There may be ; but I do not know it. Brush-makers fail as well as others. Q. Brush-makers fail, and they have made complaint, and 19 stated that the great cause of their failure was, that they could not sell the goods as cheap as they were manufactured at the prisons. A. Now, I suppose you mean Packard & Burrill. Q. Yes. A. "Well, now, they do not manufacture goods like ours, to any extent. Q. But prison labor has affected them ? A. I do not think it has. They do not make the same kind of goods. Their particular work, as I understand it, is paint, white- wash, hair, and clothes brushes. Q. I understood you to say this, that, when your goods went into the market, you received as good a price as was paid for those manufactured outside. A. Yes ; just so. Q. If that is the case, I do not see how the work done at your prison would have any effect upon the manufacturers outside. But Packard & Burrill, in their statement, said that the prison work interfered a great deal with their business. A. Well, I think those men would fail in almost any business, — the brush business, or anj' thing else. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) You say that there are none of your brushes made in this State. Where are they made ? Where are the manufacturers of this kind of brushes ? Where is the competi- tion? A. Prisons in the West. Q. You know of no outside manufacture in Massachusetts ? A. No. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) How long is it since you commenced the manufacture of brushes on public account in Cambridge ? A. 1859 or 1860. Q. On public account? A. Yes. Q. The point I wanted to bring out was this : how far the manufacture of brushes in your institution had destroyed the manu- facture of that grade of brushes in Massachusetts. Could you give any information upon that point? A. I know of but very few of that grade of brushes that were made in that time, except by the firm that had our contract. Q. What firm? A. Stratton, Sheriff, & Co. Q. It has been asserted that the manufacture of brushes in your institution has made it impossible for that grade of brushes to be made outside, and that, in the manufacture of that grade of brashes, all the refuse or poorer grade of bristles aud stock is used which they can find no use for, because og the brushes beiug made in the prison. A. We buy that material. Q. Thej' would manufacture themselves, if you did not? A. The margin is so small on that grade of goods, that I doubt whether they would want to go into it or not. They do not get the margin they do on paint and whitewash brushes, and dusteira, Those are the brushes that pay a profit. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Your institution is generally about self- sustaining ? 20 A. Last year, we were a few hundred dollars behind. Year before last, we were two hundred dollars ahead. Q. (By Mr. Maesh.) As regards Stratton, Sheriff, & Co., I think it is a wealthy house, is it not? That is, if they have retired from business, they retired wealthy? A. Mr. Sheriff, I understand, is wealthy. Mr. Stratton was wealthy : he is dead. Mr. Eastham has carried on the business, and failed. Q. Then they had this contract in the House of Correction before you, and made money, probably; but, after you took it, they abandoned that class of goods ? A. They went to Dedham, and staid there a while. They probably made the same class of goods there. I don't know. I never was in the place. Q. The point is whether you drove them out of the manufac- ture of that class of goods. A. No. They manufactured them after they left us. Q. But you do not know whether or not at a profit ? A. I do not know. Mr. Maesh. I do not think Mr. Sheriff is a man who would do it long, unless at a profit. Q. (By Mr. Tayloe.) Have you any idea of how many men are working at the brush business in this city ? A. I have not. Q. How many have you working in the House of Correction ? A. On brushes, perhaps from 175 to 200. "We do every thing ourselves ; buy the plank, and have it all sawed up. Q. How many do you think are working outside the prison at that business ? A. Brush-makers ? q. Yes. A. That class of goods ? Q. Yes, or any class of goods? A. I cannot tell you. Q. How many at that class of goods ? A. I do not think there are more than a few. q. 200, or 2,000? A. I cannot tell. I doubt if there are 200. q. (By Mr. MoESE.) What is your j-early product ? A. About 160,000. q. (By Mr. Hill.) When the captain sa3's that the institu- tion is self-sustaining during certain years, does he mean more than that it pays current expenses? He does not mean that it pays the cost of the machinery or plant, or wear and tear? A. No, simply the current expenses. In the jail we average thirty-three men who do not work at all. q. (By Mr. Mobse.) You take prisoners from the jail, some- times, into the workshop ? A. "Very seldom. I understand that parties have a contract making brushes in the State Prison ; but I do not think they work on the grade of goods we do. Still they may. q. (By M^r. Tatloe.) Whether or not this work could be done by hand, without the use of machinerj-? About what pro- 21 portion of it could be done daily by hand, without the use of machinery? I desire to find out what comparison could be made when men are employed in prison, where reformation ought to be an object, and not making money for the institution. A. We could not saw a plank out very well by hand. Our boring is done by hand. Q. What would be the difference in the amount of the receipts, if the prisoners were employed by hand, and the machinery was done away with? A. I cannot tell. Boring, drawing, trimming, and combing are done by hand. The sawing is done by machinery, and some parts of the finishing. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) If you used machinery less, could you compete with other parties outside ? A. I do not think it would be practicable to saw blocks by hand. I do not think we could do it. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Men are sent to prison for crime, and, of course, they are to be employed, because it would be inhuman not to employ them ; but the question ia. In what way would they least conflict with the workingmen outside? whether or not it is a benefit to the State and county to have a great amount of machin- ery in the building to earn money for the prison, and whether there is not some other element, as well as earning money, that would be a benefit to the State and the county ? A. That is not the only object. Q. What is it? A^ The great object is reformation. Q. You cannot tell how many men go back? A. That I cannot tell. Q. You do not think that there would be any competition with outsiders, if ji^ou did not use machinery? A. I do not think there is competition in this class of goods now. Q. (By Mr. Moksb.) Are there any facilities offered in your institution for the convicts to become educated? A. We have a library. Q. You have no school connected with your institution? A. No school. Q. You have a chaplain? A. We have services there every sabbath, — Protestant one sabbath, and Catholic the next, — both good men. Q. (By Mr. Tatlor.) For good convicts what is the allow- ance of time? A. Over four months, and less than a year, it is a day a month. By six months' good behavior a convict can get off six days. Q. Twelve days for a year ? A. Yes. Q. For good conduct or good behavior, are they allowed any other privileges more than the others ? A. Sometimes, when a man has been there a long lime, and has behaved well, after he gets through with his work we let him go and walk around the yard to get the air ; something of that sort. 22 Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) You state, that, when you took the prison. Sheriff & Co. had a contract making some kind of brushes ? A. Stratton, Sheriff, & Co. Q. Yes ; and that that contract was given up, and you con- tinued the same business on the county account? , A. Yes. Q. The question I would like to ask, and have answered care- fully is, whether, in your opinion, if that business had not been carried on in the House of Correction, it would not be carried on by some parties outside ? A. They did continue to carry it on. Q. (By Mr, Hill.) How long? A. I cannot tell. They got a contract in Dedham afterwards. I guess Mr. Sheriff was in the brush business until within a few years. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) In your opinion, did not prison work drive them and other parties out of business in that class of work ? A. I do not think it did. They continued just the same. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) You think there was room for them, and for you too ? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Then, why have the outside parties abandoned this branch of the business ? A. Because the margin is so small, I suppose. Q. You consider, that, if you had not done this business, the Western prisons would have done it, so that the business would not be worth doing by outsiders? A. Yes. They have runners around from the West every week. We have no agents, or persons soliciting orders. The orders come to the office, and faster than we can fill them, too. TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL E. CHAMBERLAIN. Samuel E. Chamberlain sworn, Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What is j'our official connection with the Concord State Prison ? A. I am the warden, Q. How long have you been connected with that institution? A. The first of December, eight years. Q. What trades are carried on in your institution ? A. To-day there is the manufacture of hats, of shoes or boots (two varieties) , walnut moulding, white moulding, gilt moulding, harness-making, brush-maldng. That is all, I think. Q. These trades are carried on under what they call the con- tract system ? A. On the contract system. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) All of them? A. AH of them. The State furnishes the shops, the heating thereof, with one officer at each room to be in charge of the disci- 23 pline. The contractors pay, for whatever motive-power they use, so much per horse-power. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Please give your opinion as to the points in this order under which the Committee is acting? A. The contract system might, in individual cases, affect free labor somewhat, but I think not to any very great extent. It depends a great deal upon the state of the labor-market out- side. A year ago, if our men had all been at work upon one branch of industry, it might have affected that branch : to-day, in the improved business, — and I do not think that there is a man idle in Massachusetts who is able to work, and wants to, — I do not think it has any effect. Our hat business is not a Massachu- setts industry ; that is, there is very little capital in Massachusetts invested in the manufacture of hats. The hats are for another market: very few are sold here. The contractors are parties belonging outside of the State, — in New York and New Jersey, where the hat industry carries a very large capital with it. The business is comparatively small in this State. The shoe business (we have a hundred and some odd men : the contracts are for one hundred ; but we have a few over) employs about one hun- dred men on one style of boot, and one hundred on another. That I do not think affects anybody outside. I know there is a demand for shoemakers outside. The contractors ask for skilled laborers who are discharged, — a thing which has not been done before for years. Every man who leaves our prison to-day, who is shoemaker, can get employment, if he wishes. Q. (By Mr. Tatlok.) How many men work on shoes? A. About 230, I think, on two different contracts. Then with regard to this moulding contract, the parties that had it failed up since you were there. I advertised for six weeks in five leading papers of Massachusetts, without a response from any one, which shows that they can do better outside in the same branch of in- dustry than they can there. They employ girls and boys outside on a great many branches that in prison are done by men. The small number attached to each department of moulding does not affect the market much. I think we have thirty on walnut moulding, about the same on gilt moulding, and about thirty on white moulding. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) The gilt moulding is suspended? A. No. Q. You said that the contractors failed ? A. It is carried on by the trustees. Mr. Skillings is carrying it on. Q. (By Mr, Marsh.) What was the statement about adver- tising for contracts ? A. I advertised for six weeks in five leading papers of Massa- chusetts, three months ago, the labor of one hundred and fifty men skilled in walnut, white, and gilt moulding, and have not met with a single response. We receive fifty cents a day for that labor. They see that they can employ boys and girls for less outside. Q. In your advertisement was the price of fifty cents named ? A. No price was named. Q. (By Mr. Mouse.) Take up the other branches of industry 24 that you are carrying on, and give us j'our ideas upon them, — what effect they have upon the outside trade ? A. Our brush contracts are small. I should think they would not affect any thing. There are only fifteen men at work upon them, and the business does not pay. I am sorry that Capt. Adams left, because our contractor, Hunting, says that he cannot com- pete with East Cambridge. He says that he can buy brushes made in East Cambridge for what the material costs him. The industry has been in the prison fifty years. We have no contract ; but we are working fifteen men under him, and he pays us as if there were a contract. We use more machine labor than Capt. Adams does. We have nine men making harnesses. That teaches them a capital trade, which they can get work at when they go out. The third point of inquiry is as to the effect of the contract system upon the reformation of convicts. That, in my opinion, is the strongest argument in favor of this contract sj'stem of labor and the use of machinery, — to teach men trades, the same that are carried on outside, and by the same means. We know from long experience, especially through our State agent, that, when men learn trades thoroughly, — and most of them do, — if they wish, they can get employment outside, and that, of course, is one of the most effective means of reformation. There are hundreds of young men who have been in prison who are doing well now all over the State ; and many of those hundreds have told me, that, if they had learned a trade before they came, they never would have been there. In fact, we find very few men who come to the prison with trades, unless they have learned them inside some penal institution. Q. Can you give the number that came in without trades ? A. I should place it as high as eighty per cent. I do not call keeping accounts, or book-keeping, a trade. In these days, nearly everybody can do that. We have large numbers of young men who go from the grammar schools to commercial schools, and thence into stores and offices. There they have small salaries : they contract expensive habits, and soon begin to pilfer and steal. Thej' are smart young men, and, if they had learned trades, they never would have got into prison. Q. As to the trade being a means of reformation ? A. We have to judge by the result. Even in these hard times, recommitments to our prison number about nine per cent, and as far as we can trace them up in houses of correction, &c. (I cor- respond with all the prisons of the United States) , the houses of correction in this State receive five to six per cent more. We consider that somewhere in the vicinity of eighty-four per cent of our men do well after they leave, which is a far higher number than in any so-called reformatory prison I ever heard of. In the reformatory prisons of Europe they think they do a wonderful thing when only thirty-four per cent return to crime. In France they make that claim. Q. You do not take into consideration the difference between France and America? A. Still, that is held up as a model for us to go by. Take up the Sir Walter Crofton system. We have it, that of the graduates 25 of Lusk, which is no prison at all, seventy-flve per cent, through the influence, almost by the authority, of the police, emigrate to America ; one per cent remain in Ireland, and behave themselves ; and twenty-four per cent are recommitted. That is called the greatest reformatory prison in the world, according to our prison- experts like Mr. Sanborn. Seventy-flve per cent come to America. I have two in my prison to-day. Q. The percentage of those who have come to this country is financially settled ? A. Yes. Their occupation is merely to work on marsh-land. The first is Mountjoy, then Spike Island, where the work has been abolished. Now they go to Lusk, where they have neither bolts nor bars. They are allowed to go to the village without an oflBcer, and to go to their own places of worship without attendance. It would be almost impossible to escape there. If he attempted it, and was caught, he would have to lose all good marks. Those who are discharged are told that their earnings amount to so many pounds (and their work cannot be of any importance except in the increased value of the land) , which have been invested in a passage to America for them. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Explain a little more fully what you mean by eighty-four per cent doing well after leaving? It is a very large percentage, and I would like to know on what informa- tion or statistics you found that statement. A. It is this, as far as we can ascertain. We know, of course, what comes back to us. Year before last, of two hundred and twenty-one prisoners received, twenty-four were recommittals. Q. (Bj Mr. LiTCHMAN.) Explain a little more fully about recommittals. Do you mean those who have been in your prison, or in others ? A. In our prison. Twenty-four came back out of two hundred and twenty-one. Our years run from Sept. 30 to Oct. 1. Year before last, out of two hundred and twenty-one received, twentj'-four had been inside of the prison before on sentence ; and during that year I found that there had been five sentenced to otheJ- prisons, and, as near as I could make out, nine in houses of correction in Massachusetts. Of course we are not sure ; but, as near as we can make out, we know one another's boarders pretty well. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Don't they have difierent names? A. Any amount of them . But we try to keep the run of men whom we look upon as criminals. There is a certain number of professionals. We have probaby in Massachusetts penal institu- tions to-day two hundred professional criminals. Those we never expect to do well, though of course they can. I know one in- stance of a reformed burglar who is doing well. He is very earnest in his reformation, and is highly respected where he lives. With that class we do not expect to make much headway, because they believe that they have a right to a life of crime, and glory in it. Mr. Marsh. That is a very large percentage ; and I am very glad to know if it is so. Witness. This year we have received about forty less than last year ; and the number of recommittals — I would not be sure ; but 26 I think we received not far from nine per cent. Last year was far above the average, because it was a hard year outside. Some of those, who, from sickness or shiftlessness, do not learn any trade, arid go out as they came in, often say, when they are going, " If I can't get something I can do, you will see me back here." A man who left this week made that remark. Q. (By Mr. Tayloe.) They must like it pretty well to want to get back ? A. They are well seen to, and their animal comforts are better seen to than they probably would be outside. I look upon teach- ing these men a mechanical trade, just as it is done outside, as one of the greatest means of reform. When a criminal is reformed, he becomes a tax-payer, and helps return to the State what he cost. Q. (B3- Mr. LiTCHMAN.) Do you think that a man who learns to run a sewing-machine learns a trade which he will work at out- side? A. Yes. Q. I would like to know where ? A. Our sewing-machine men get four dollars a daj''. Q. That is new to me, except on stitching-machines. A. On McKay machines. Q. I am not speaking of that, but of men who work on uppers. Those men will not get work at that? A. They learn more than that. Q. A man' who runs a McKay sewing-machine, or a pegging- machine, has a trade : I admit that. A. "We send those men to Maine as fast as we can. There may be some particular parts of all these industries that outside are done by women. But most men learn more than one thing. Q. You have one hundred and fifty men on gilt mouldings. What chance have they of getting employment outside ? A. We have on the gilt contract about thirty. Q. When we had the hearing last winter, it was all in one con- tract, so considered, so attacked, and so defended. The point I want to get at is. What chance these men have of employment who work for three years and upwards on gilt mouldings? What chance they have for empl'oj'ment afterwards ? A. I could not inform you. All the polishers and sand- paperers on walnut moulding can get work very fast. Q. It was claimed last winter "by gilt moulders that their busi- ness was destroyed. A. If it is so small that thirty men can destroy it, it does not amount to much. Outside, a man stands the same chance as others. Q. But they say that the trade is destroyed. A. That we deny. There is more work outside now than there was before the prison contract was made. There were five con- cerns engaged in the business then, and now there are nine. Q. (By Mr. Maksh) . Is this an established fact, that there are more men working outside on gilt moulding than there were when you commenced? A. All I can say is, that there are more firms engaged in the business now than there were then, as shown by "The Boston Directory." 27 Q. Then, so far as your knowledge extends, the work carried on in your shop in the moulding department does not interfere, to any extent, with outside labor in the same department? A. I do not thinlj it does. I do not see how it can. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Would you give the same answer in regard to the manufacture of shoes and the other manufactures which you carry on there? Do they, in your judgment, and so far as your knowledge goes, to anj' appreciable extent affect the industries outside? A. Not in general, though in dull years they might affect indi- viduals. To the fourth point I do not see that I can make any an- swer. I do not think there is any advantage to any extent. The margin must be very small. Contractors have to be under very strict rules of prison discipline themselves. They are really not masters of their own business. Their employees are subject to the approval of the warden, and then we have to be very careful with them. Then, as to the hours of working, we try to average nine hours a day ; but we do not succeed. Then the most valuable men are often taken sick, and time is spent in seeing friends every three mouths, and in other ways. Q. What is the average day's labor ? A. We call it nine hours, — about ten in the summer, and eight in the winter. Then there is this drawback, especially in the shoe business : outside, in dull times, a manufacturer discharges men ; but under a contract the contractor must' keep his men employed, even if he has to accumulate stock, instead of waiting for an open market. Our shoe men have sometimes offered to pay the wages, and keep the men idle for two months at a time ; but we would not allow it. The contractors must keep their men at work. That is one of the serious drawbacks on all industries in the prison. They have to keep the men at work. They cannot discharge them, they must pay them. Q. Did not Rice & Hutchins allow their men to remain idle some time the last year? A. One time they were idle, and their pay went on ; but it - was when we were making a change. Davis & Whitcomb with- drew. The margin on shoes is very small. I do not know that there are a hundred boots or shoes made inside the prison that undersell those made outside. I cannot state that. Q. (By Mr. LiTCHMAN.) It is a matter of opinion ? A. It is my opinion. Q. You stated that you thought last year there might possibly be some hardship from the contract system, but that this year, with the increased demand for labor, the improvement in business, the competition would not be so appreciable. Now, then, if times are better, and labor is higher outside, is not the advantage greater to the manufacturer who employs prison labor? A. It is undoubtedly greater than it was last year. Q. And the contract, in the same ratio, more profitable? A. Yes. Q. You spoke of the accumulation of stock. If he accumu- lates stock by prison labor, that stock must be sold, if the manu- facturer gets into a position where he must sell it. Does not that 28 bring him into unfair competition, if he has to make a forced sale of accumulated goods? A. Yes, if he sacrifices. But I have not heard of any case where he did. Q. One of the chief claims made against this system is, that if a man has a large capital, and can hold goods, he has a great advantage ; but, if his capital is small, his goods, by being forced upon the market, break down the price. A. If that happened, it would have that eflfect. Q. It has happened ; both instances. A. I have not known it to happen with us. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) So far as you know, the stock manu- factured in your institution sells as high as stock manufactured outside ? A. Yes. Q. Is the line of goods manufactured in your prison as good as outside? A. Yes, of the same class. "We claim that our men can make boots and shoes of any qualitj' or grade. Q. What is the relative amount of work done by each con- vict? A. I could not tell. It varies very much. Q. Does the convict inside do as much as the free laborer outside? or what is the diflferenee between the labor inside and: outside ? A. We consider that a convict's day's work is equal to a two- thirds day's work outside. We cannot judge more accurately, because most of the work is done by the piece. Of course there are many instances where they do more. Q. A man outside gets in a certain trade two dollars a day, and you get fifty cents. How do you account for the difference between inside and outside work? A. It is simply that we cannot get any more. We advertise the labor, and it is open to competition, and many men formerly used to come and inquire, and go away without making any bid. Merchants and manufacturers who are engaged in the industries carried on in prison investigate, and think thej' can do better out- side. Q. The reason that they can do better is because you have shorter hours, the prisoners do less work, and it is not very good work ? or what is the precise reason ? A. I could not say. I can state some. Some do not like the restrictions imposed on contractors and others in prison. Thej' like to be masters more of their own people. Their employees have to comply with our rules as strictly as our employees them- selves. Q. So that, in your judgment, the contractor could not make a profit if he paid more than he does ? A. Last year T do not think he could. But if business in- creases, and the payment of men outside goes up, of course the contractor will have the advantage of it. He will make more money. Q. Are your contracts in such form that they can be annulled at any time ? 29 A. Our hat contract is for five j'ears, without any clause pro- viding that it may be annulled, after certain notice, by either party. It was the redeeming point with us about this hat contract. When I advertised before I left the old prison, the old contractors clubbed together, and sent in a uniform proposal for the number of men thej' wanted. It was twenty-five cents a day. I rejected all the proposals, and went out among other persons, and brought back proposals enough for two thousand men, if I had had them, at an advance. One man wanted all the prisoners for the manu- facture of farming- tools, an industry not much carried on in Mas- sachusetts. I consulted with the inspectors, and we decided that the best thing we could do was to let two hundred' or more to this hat firm, and the others to the gilders. That brought up the price at once. The old contractors, as far as they could, came in and got what men they could. Mr. Hull and some others wei'e unable to get any. It was this hat contract that brought up the price : otherwise there would have been a deficit this year of $40,000 or $50,000 more than we have. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) It seems that you could have employed six hundred men at one trade in your prison ? A. Yes. Q. If only a certain percentage of prisoners were employed at a certain trade as compared with the number of persons en- gaged in it outside, wouldn't it be a good thing? A. I do not think so. "We consider that we have a right to have men do whatever will support them. Q. Have you a right to make men go into prison in order to work at their trade ? A. They must violate the laws to go there. Q. But they cannot work at their trade outside ? A. Then they should go at something else. This is a broad, free country. Q. Suppose that on gilt mouldings you worked a certain per- centage ? A. That depends entirely upon the manufacturers. It rests with them, not the prison authorities, to say how many men they will have. Q. Would not the percentage arrangement be beneficial to all parties ? A. No, I do not think so. I do not think it is an advantage to the State to have too large contractors. A large contractor gets to be an infiuential man in prison, and there is friction. Then, if there were very large contracts for certain kinds of work, there would be some good ground of complaint against the prison ? Q. By employing a percentage you would avoid that. A. We cannot compel contractors to take a small number of men. A law, of percentage would break up the contract system: the State would have to carry on the business itself, and then there would be direct competition. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Rice & Hutchins have a hundred men. Suppose you were obliged to reduce the number to fifty; would they be likely to take men on as good terms as now? A. They would not take them at all. 30 Q. It would not be an object to them ? A. I know it. Mr. Taylor. It would kill the contractors. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Why wouldn't the}' take any men? A. It would not pay to have so small a contract. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) It would kill contracting altogether? A. In my opinion it would. Contractors now are diflScult men to get along with. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) The simple remedy for interference with business would be a more diversified line of business ? A. Yes. Q. Could 3'ou, with the ordinary profit to the institution, in- crease the number of trades carried on there ? A. In the interest of the State ? ' Q. Yes, and also the reformation of the convicts. A. It depends on the contractors. We have advertised, and could not get any. Q. Are the kinds of trade that you have now as many as yon can carry on ? A. Yes, at present. We have advertised these men as being capable of being made available in any mechanical work. We have tried to get a contract to put them at the stone business, which is a very good one for prisoners ; but we could not get any. ■Q. Why? A. On account of the Trade Union, — the Stone-cutters' Union. They have these things so fine, that, when we had a contract to employ one hundred men at coopering, it was found, that, in the sugar-refineries, not a cooper could be found to put a head into a barrel that was made bj"a prisoner. That is what keeps manu- facturers from coming in. Q. Are there other Trade Unions that prevent you from intro- ducing work, that you know of? A. The stone-cutters and the coopers are the only ones that interfere. The Crispins interfered ; but it was a benefit, rather than otherwise, to the prison contractors. These contractors, in addition to the per diem, allow their men the tobacco permitted by law, which amounts to five or six dollars a year for each. Most of the contractors acting under prison rules send their men fruit in season. Q. Are contractors allowed to give presents outside' of what the law permits ? A. None whatever. Q. Are they allowed to give any compensation for extra work? A. That is against our rules. But when a man's time is out, if he has been faithful, they often make him a present. Some- times, wTien they have destitute families depending upon them, the contractors give them a little money, which is a gift, and not in payment at all. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) There would be no harm in giving it to them when they are going out. A. No, we encourage that. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Who regulates the tasks ? A. I do. 31 Q. Are any of the instructors allowed to interfere with the dis- cipline, or with the amount of work each one is required to do? A. The instructors' duty is to show the men how to do the work, see that it is well done, and that the amount required is done. They are not allowed to make any threats. They can speak encouragingly, or they can say this way : " This won't answer ; you must do more work, or I shall be compelled to report you." Reporting means speaking to the officer, and telling him that so and so has not done his work. Q. Explain the strike in the hat factory, and its cause ? A. Well, with us we have no knowledge of any strike : our in- formation about that was from the newspapers. But I know what was alluded to, and I will describe the occurrence. In the finish- ing shop, one morning as the men went in — we call them mutinies, not strikes — the men in the finishing hat shop marched in, folded their arms, and stood in front of the benches like statues. The officer of the shop ordered them to go to work. He met with a silent refusal. He very properly formed them, and marched them up to the prison. There was no noisy demonstration. When I saw them, I went down and asked the occasion of marching them up. He said that they refused to work. I asked them if they un- derstood the consequences of it, and told them that it was a mutiny. Two or three stepped forward to make a statement. I said that I would not listen. " I order you to go back to work : will you do it? Left face, forward, march ! " They went. That was the so- called strike in the hat shop, — the first one. I investigated it, and found that the real cause, though they did not acknowledge it, was, that the contractor had cut short the ration of tobacco. I called the leaders up afterwards, and asked them the occasion of the trouble, and they said that the work was more than they could do. They had been doing it right along, and have done it since. The real trouble was with the contractor, about tobacco. In my report year before last, I urged a stringent rule about tobacco. They went to work without any compromise or any thing of the kind. After that, in our plank shop, where they shrink the hats, the men refused to work. I had them marched right up, and I asked them, " Will you go back to work?" They refused, and I put them in solitary, — thirty odd of them. They had no idea of the capacity of our prison for punishment ; but we could have handled double that number. They staid there until they went back to work. I stopped their good-behavior time, — some of them were ten-year men, and entitled to six hundred days, — I stopped their visits, and I stopped their letters. I looked upon it as a mutiny. I was disposed to be easy with the first. There will be no more strikes or mutinies there. The tobacco was restored by the contractor without my saying any thing. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Why did he cut off the tobacco ? A. To make a saving, I think. Q. Didhecutoflr all? A. No ; a part. I have the tobacco given out uniformly, and of the same kind. The contractor gave them less than was allowed. 32 Q. He was to blame, then ? A. He was. I felt, on inquiring into it, that I could not punish the men. They did not come out plainly about it. Thej- have done the work right through since. My order at the time was to go back and do the work, and I would investigate the matter. Q. What was the result? A. The result was, that, while they contended that it was on account of the work, the real complaint was about the tobacco. Some of the most intelligent men said that. Q. (By Mr. Maesh.) What do I understand this second one was for? A. It was about the increased amount of work. Q. You are satisfied that there was no real cause for that? A. I was satisfied that they had no real cause for that. The work that they did is done outside by youngsters, in some in- stances, in equal amounts. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) To make that point a little clearer, who fixes the stint? A. I have all power in that matter. The contractors claim that so much work ought to be done. I make inquiries, and decide as to a good day's work. I have spent days in shoe shops for that purpose, and have inquired at Clinton. I cannot tell very closely, because outside the work is done mostly by the piece. But we intend that these men shall do a two-third day's work. Men in that plank shop, where the stint was to do twentj^-one hats a day, — shrink them, — got mad after they went back, and did thirty-six right along. They had a point to gain. They make combinations which we cannot detect to gain their points. They want to obtain some understanding with the contractor, that, when they go out, they shall have a certain sum of mone}'. They will combine, and we punish them for it". There is not a contractor there who will not give a man a nice little sum of monej' if he has done well. I think the, average given to those hat men is at least ten dollars. > ■- Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) You say that this system of contract labor assists discipline. How can that be, if it causes this trouble? A. I was not aware that I did state that. Q. Then I will ask the question. If the contract system helps the discipline? ' A. It does not. Q. Do you think it is a detriment? A. It does not help it any. Q. Explain why? A. I will tell you. The contractors employ instructors, and those instructors, some of them, may be men of bad moral char- acter. They bring in news of what is going on outside, and keep some of the men under excitement. Once in a while I find a man who is doing this, and I shut the gates right against him. The contractors come to me very indignant, and say he is one of their best men. I saj', "He has been drinking, he comes in with the smell of liquor about him ; and we cannot allow it." They carry in newspapers, and carry out letters, sometimes. It is diflScult to 33 detect them ; but we are satisfied that they do it. Of course, if the work were carried on bj' the State, every instructor would be a State officer. Q. (By Mr. Mokse.) I would like to ask your opinion with regard to the contract system as compared with the public- account system. A. For the interest of the State and the community the con- tract system is better. If the State carried it on, we should have to have stores, agents, clerks, treasurers, and a large number of officers ; so that it would become a big political affair. It would cause much unnecessary expense, and great loss to the State. The State has tried it, and always failed. Q. Notwithstanding the difficulties you complain of in con- nection with the contractors and their agents, you would prefer the contract system rather than the public-account sj-stem? A. By all means : it is for the interest of the State. Q. (Bj' Mr. Hill.) What is for the interest of the convict? A. 1 think it is better for the interests of the convicts. I do not see how the State could carry on so many industries. The machinerj' alone is worth $200,000. I do not think there would be a great deal of difference, as far as the reformation is concerned. That comes directly under us now. We are troubled some with some instructors ; but, so far from the other system being beneficial to the State, it would be a great cost. First, we would have to buy all this machinery. Then, if there is a change in the manner of conducting the business outside, there must be a corresponding change inside. The prison never could be carried on to pay ex- penses in that wa3-. So far as reformation is concerned, the men come directly under discipline, rules, and authority, and I do not think there would be much difference, as long as they learn a trade. If the State taught a variety of trades, the result would be about the same as now. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Under which system is the internal dis- cipline of the prison the best, without reference to what the State might be willing to pay or not to pay ? In connection with that, under what system would the best welfare of the convict be pro- moted ? A. The discipline of the prison would be better with the whole thing directly under the management of the State ; but the inter- ests of the convicts would not be. Q. Is not what is for the good of discipline for the good of the convicts ? , A. We maintain the discipline now, but with more friction. Q. And the friction comes on the convict ? A. No : he is between the two mill-stones. I consider that a large amount of my burden, and it is considerable, is settling matters with contractors. Every day I have more or less talk with them. They are jealous of one another : one gets more men than another, or different men, and there are a thousand other things. The contractors add a great deal to the warden's trouble. When it, is all under the State, it is different. At the same time, I am of the opinion that the present system is far better. Q. (By Mr. Maesh.) Suppose that you could do away with all 34 this contract system, — with the contractors and their instructors, — and take the prison under your immediate charge, having the whole control of every thing that is done in it, do you think that you could manage the prison in a more satisfactory way than it is done to day — saying nothing about dollars and cents ? A. Run it as I run it to-day ? Q. Run it entirely j'ourself. A. I could not do it, nor any other man in existence. _ It would be not only running the prison, but a great many industries, looking out for markets, for material, and selling stock. No one man could do it, and no half-dozen men. Q. There are prisons run that way ? A. None that I know of. Q. (By Mr. Litohman.) How if the goods produced were sold at trade-sales, at auction, if you please : would not that relieve you of the difHculty ? A. It would, and would affect the industries outside badly. Q. How? A. By selling at auction. Q. If they were made on State account, the quality could be kept up, because the amount would not be so much a requisite as the quality. A. It would require men equal to the present contractors, the present force of salesmen, &c., — perhaps two hundred men. Q. Have you ever had the work on State account in your charge ? A. No. Q. Then you can only speak from study and investigation ? A. By the records. Some of the old bills are not collected now. Q. It is hardly fair to bring that up, because business is con- ducted differently now from what it was twenty-five years ago. A. At present, I do not see how it could be carried on in the interest of the State without affecting industry in a great degree, because we probably could adopt only one kind of business. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Suppose, instead of letting the men by contract, you take the boots and shoes, and make them ; that is, the State contract to do the work by the piece, instead of letting men by the day? What would be the moral effect? A. It might answer, if you could get somebody to make that offer. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Have you ever tried to have that offer made ? A. "When we had men doing nothing, I tried every means. I wanted to work on piece-work, and could get none. Q. Why could not labor be used for the manufacture" of goods used in other prisons ? A. What other prisons ? Q. The convict class in Massachusetts numbers, say three thousand. Why not make all the shoes and all the clothing for them at the State Prison ? A. They generally make them themselves. Q. Do you? 35 A. Yes : we make shoes and clothing. Q. Why not make them for all the prisons ? A. They make them themselves, and they would not pay us for them. A county would not pay $1.10 for shoes, which is what it costs us to make them. Q. The county would not have any thing to do with it : they would be made by the State. A. You cannot compel the counties to buy of us. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Have you tried the system of making work for the woman's prison? A. It is impracticable. Our men who work on making clothes, &c., are invalids generally. Contractors would not have them. Every able-bodied man we can cull out of our State work is on contract. We are running the prison on a very small force, — men who are unfit for the contractors. If the women's prison made uniforms for us, we would have to pay them ; and, if we made shoes for them, they would have to pay us. All our men are em- ployed to-day. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Suppose that the prison commis- sioners should say the women's prison shall make clothing for the men, the men shall make shoes for the women. Why could not that plan be carried out? A. While the women were making clothes for our men, the men would sit idle. Q. The men could make the women's shoes. A. But they can buy shoes cheaper than we can make them. Then, again, when women go on short-term sentences, their shoes last them pretty well through. Q. So far as there is any thing bought by the State, and used in the prisons, I want to know why it cannot be made by the pris- oners. A. They do. What would be the advantage of making one prison work for another? Why not sell the goods? Every man in the prison is employed fully all the time : so I do not see how we could do any thing for the other prisons to any advantage. Q. But by annulling that contract ? A. Our men would make enough shoes in a week to last the women's prison a year. Q. When we visited Deer Island, we found men making cess- pool covers for the city. If the State, just by way of illustration, were to build a highway to Berkshire, why couldn't the men be employed by the State in some such way ? A. We could not do it. It would interfere with honest labor outside too. Q. All labor by prisoners does ; but we want to arrange it so as to have the least possible interference. A. If we take the work right away from the men, we interfere with them. We commenced yesterday to put in water-works at the prison. The contractor wanted convicts for the work, but I would not let him have them : so he is compelled to hire citizens, and honest labor is not interfered with. Q. (By Mr. Litohman.) If I never have a thing, you do not take it away from me. If I have it, and you take it away,_ I lose it. I cannot see how you take it away from honest labor, if they never have it. 86 A. They have a right to it, though. Q. If you do work they never had, you do not take it away from them. A. We do what they never had. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Generally speaking, you do not think that there is any other system that can take the place of the con- tract system ? A. Not to be beneficial to the State, to the convicts, and the community. Q. You have a sabbath school? A. We have a sabbath school. Q. Have you a school connected with the institution? A. We have no school so called. By law, the prison chap- lain's salary was raised $600 to make him a teacher. We have a large supply of school-books, and he goes and instructs those who need it, in the evening, which is a better plan than to have the school by itself. We have not more than twenty-five or thirty men who cannot read and write. When I started a school (I tried it when there was no work), we would have two or three hundred who could not read or write, though their signatures were in the prison. We have adopted the plan which will best keep up dis- cipline. Their success is wonderful. We supply them with such books as they require. Then we have a large library, a catalogue of which will be out shortly. Every Sunday we have in the morn- ing the observance of the Catholic Church, the mass. Q. That is with regard to the moral education ; but what about the intellectual? To what extent do you carry on that part? A. Our chaplain goes around to the rooms, and gives instruc- tion to the convicts. Q. Now, then, the religious ? A. Sundays we have mass ; then sabbath school, after that, our regular chapel-service, which everybody attends. All that wish to attend the Catholic service are allowed that privilege ; but, if they go, they must conform to whatever takes place there. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) The Catholics are compelled to attend the Protestant service ? A. Yes : that was understood by all parties when the Catholic service came in. The men who attend the sabbath school are those that I approve of. Undoubtedly the whole prison would , attend sabbath school, if permitted ; but nine out of ten would not go there for any special good. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) When you held your school in Charlestown, was there a marked desire to attend it ? A. Yes. Q. What was the special reason, if any? A. To acquire knowledge, they stated, but in reality to talk with others, and concoct mischief, I knew. Q. Was not the discipline aided by the school ? A. It was injured. Q. I have in memory a report which said that it was improved. A. I cannot say that it was. Q: (By Mr. Morse.) You do not think that is true of the sabbath school ? 37 A. Yes ; but I allow only certain parties in. There is more or less going on even there, and there will be in any prison. That will be, even among the men you select. When I went to the old prison, they had an evening school twice a week. The warden's son was employed as teacher, and a salary paid him. I studied it carefully, and found that it was any thing but a school for advance- ment or discipline. The inspectors of that year speak of it as a proved success. As a means of concocting mischief, it was a suc- cess. Some of the things done there were almost past belief, and in coming and going from it. I broke it up. Q. You deem the labor performed by the men a means of reformation ? A. Where they learn a trade, most decidedly. I am very de- cided on that. Q. Then you think that the intellectual facilities afforded them are another means of reformation ? A. To a certain class. You must understand, probably you are aware of it, that a great majority of our men are well edu- cated. We have, I think, nine college graduates there to-day, — quite a number, at any rate. The class that requires much practi- cal English instruction is very small, — the smallest, I believe, in any prison out of Prussia. Most of those who cannot read or write are very old, and do not care to acquire knowledge. There are some young men whom we are teaching to read and write and cipher. Q. Then the majority of the inmates get such intellectual in- struction as you deem proper that they should have ? A. I will state broadly that there is not a man who desires to acquire the English branches who has not the opportunity. Q. I want to get at whether the institution is conducted on the principle of reforming the inmates, rather than of making a profit for the State. A. It is conducted more as a place of punishment than either. We consider that the question of reformation enters largely into all our administration there ; but we look upon it as a place of punishment. We do not look upon it as a place to pay a profit to the State, because it has not done so for years. I, for one, am opposed to a prison paying any excess into the treasury over ex- penses, on anj'' consideration, though that seems to be the standard they judge wardens by, — the amount of mone3' they make. Q. I desire to ask if the labor performed by the prisoners is deemed to be a punishment for crime by you ? A. No.- Q. Then it is deemed to be a means of reformation? A. Yes. We could not punish them worse than to keep them without labor. Q. Solitary confinement would be a punishment for crime ? A. Yes. Q. The work which they perform is what 3'ou deem one of the elements of reformation? A. Yes ; and a very strong one. Q. That, in connection with the intellectual, moral, and re- ligious instruction, and the trade which they learn, is the element of reform in the prison ? 38 A. The learning of a trade there, mental acquirements, reli- gion, and the discipline. I look upon the discipline as a very pow- erful auxiliary in reformation. The young men were brought up without any restraint, and became so independent, that they com- mitted crimes which brought them there. Q. Is there any other system by which these elements could have a greater effect than by the contract sj-stem ? A. I know of none. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Is there a confessional held there? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) You are familiar with the system at Elmira? A, Yes. Q. What would you say of that system as compared with the system in vogue at your prison? A. I have but very little confidence in that system at Elmira as a final success. It is all verj- well at present. Of course it is widely different from ours. It is hardly looked upon as a place of punishment : it is a reformatory. Q. Carry your mind to the Eastern Penitentiary in Philadel- phia. How far would you go towards adopting that sj'stem ? A. In the interest of the State and the men themselves I look upon our Concord sj'stem of congregated work by day, and soli- tary cell system by night, as far ahead in every thing that tends to make a man, — ahead of the Eastern Penitentiary. For the com- fort of the officials I should be pleased to have our prison on the Eastern Penitentiary plan, because there is no trouble. The penitentiary might be oflacered by women or invalids. Nothing can happen there to affect anybody. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Have you noticed, since the Catholic clergy have been allowed in the prison, a tendency to reform in prisoners who come under their control ? A. I can bear witness, that, as far as our prison life is con- cerned, the introduction of the Catholic worship there has been very beneficial indeed. I have several instances where men who were formerly very violent, and violated the rules very often, are now well behaved. Sometimes, when their passions get the best of them, they stop and say, " I promised the priest I wouldn't do so and so, and I won't go back on him." Q. (By Mr. Mokse.) I wanted to ask your opinion, whether the Sir "Walter Crofton sj'stem could be introduced to any advan- tage to the moral reformation of the convicts of the State ? A. I do not think it could, because it is not practicable to carry out the third prison here. Q. Why? A. Men could get away here, if they wished, and not be re- captured. Then, again, a man has to gain every privilege and advantage there by good behavior. When a man goes into Mount- joy, he is only allowed the bare necessaries of life, not even a bed. We go on the opposite plan. The Fall River defaulter is put on the same level with the poorest and most ignorant man. The prisoners are talked with ; they are advised and cautioned, those who need it, that, if thej' do not do what is right, they will lose 39 their privileges. So it goes just the other way. Instead of ele- vating for good behavior, we take away privileges for bad be- havior. Q. Don't you think that if they should have privileges for good behavior, and rapid intellectual and moral progress, they would perhaps advance more rapidly towards reformation ? A. I do not think they would. The best-behaved men, who would get all the marks, are the professionals. G-ive me an old English burglar as a model prisoner above all others. We had a man go out this week, : he has been there twice, and in numerous other prisons, and he is one of the best men I ever saw. If there was a marking system, those men would carry away the palm. They are courteous, take good care of their health, and conform to all the rules. Often, when there is any thing going on against discipline, we get items of information from them. Q. Whether or not, in your judgment, there is any other system that you know of, that could be introduced, that would be better, all things considered, than the present system? A. I will state this : that I believe that our prison system can be improved on to a great extent. Q. Please state how? A. I have given the matter some attention, but not so much as I might. The first point covers more than prison discipline : it involves a change in the law. It is that the duration of sen-- tences should be increased for the second, third, and fourth offences. If a man comes for the fourth time, that time ought to be for life. That would have an effect upon the community. Also that the chaplain, instead of being called a chaplain, should be called a moral instructor, and should be the State agent for discharged convicts. The chaplain has a direct intercourse with them, which the agent is allowed too ; but the chaplain has superior opportunities for becoming familiar with them. He should be a liberal man, who would talk to them about morals, try to obtain situations for them, and follow them up afterwards. The chaplain is paid enough for all those duties, — $2,000 a year in these times. Then there should be equal sentences for similar crimes. That is a great and crying evil. It .is a very delicate matter ; but I have spoken to the judges about it. We have men sentenced for life for crimes for which other men get but three years. We have some men sent to the House of Correction for eighteen months, and other men who committed similar offences are sent to the State Prison. We have one man sentenced for eight years for killing two men, and another for eight years for stealing three hens ; though, to be sure, he was an old offender. We should have a uniformity of sentence ; so that when two men work side by side at the same bench, sentenced for similar crimes, one man shall not be serving fifteen years, and the other only three. Those men believe that there is no justice done them. Every convict should have the feeling that justice has been done in his case. Q. Could this be done away with bj- having an indeterminate sentence, and having the pardon made by the authorities ? 40 A. No, because those men would deceive anybody. The best men are the professionals. The men that we have most confi- dence in in prison are men that we know, when they go out, in all probability, will embrace a life of crime again. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Have you any knowledge Of the internal arrangement of the State Prison at Concord, N.H.? A. That is very similar to ours, only the discipline is more severe. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Don't you think it would be better if your prisoners were classified? if some of the younger men were taken out, and put by themselves ? A. I have spoken of burglars ; but give me one of those street Arabs, who has been on the schoolship, and at Westfield, and he has more depravity in him than the oldest burglars. Nobody but the Almighty can tell what a man really is. Oct. 22, 10.30 a.m. TESTIMONY OF GUY C. UNDERWOOD. Gut C. Underwood sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What is your position? A. Superintendent of the Deer Island institutions, — the House of Industry, the House of Reformation, and the Almshouse at Eainsford's Island. Q. How long have you been connected with that institution ? A. This time I have been there a little over three years, formerly I was there five years and a half, — a little over eight years altogether. Q. Have you been connected with other institutions ? A. Yes. For nearly two j'ears deputy master of the House of Correction. Q. WiU you state to the Committee the kinds of work per- formed at j'our institution ? A. In the House of Reformation department, printing, and, in the summer months, by the larger boys, farming. In the House of Industry department we are employing about fifty men at stone- cutting, and we emploj' tailors, carpenters, shoemakers, black- smiths, painters, — enough to do our own work. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Fifty at stone-cutting? A. About fifty now. Other men are employed taking care of the prisons, on the farm, and at various kinds of labor, — improv- ing the island, and bringing waste land under cultivation. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Is any of your labor performed under the contract system, so called ? A. No contract system. Q. On what account is your work carried on? A. On account of the city. We contract for the stock (granite) in the stone-yard, and manufacture it into edge-stones, catch-basins, and paving-blocks. Then we sell it to the city for the same price that it pays to the contractors. The street and sewer departments 41 make a contract with certain parties to supply all the edge-stones and catch-basins needed for the year, less the amount we can furnish on Deer Island. They pay us precisely the same prices that they do other contractors. In the female department we manufacture clothing for the institution. Before the Reformatory Prison was started we took work to do by the piece, — shirts, overalls, &c. The contractors sent their goods down, and we cut them up into such sizes and shapes as they wished, and made them for so much a dozen, the contractors never interfering, except to come down occasionally. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Do you do that now ? A. No. Q. When was that done ? A. Two years ago, when we had more women, and older women. 1 think we shall do it again, as the number of our women is increasing. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Does the work which you do for the city have any effect on the general industries of the State ? A. Not that I am aware of. Q. You do not come in conflict with the general business inter- ests of the State ? A. Not that I am aware of. Q. With regard to the stone-work, — there are stone-yards and manufacturers of stone outside, — does your work come in contact with the labor outside ? A. We may, to the extent of what we furnish ; but it has no tendency to decrease the prices, or the price of labor. The stone- j'ards of Quincy and Rockport have just so much less to furnish, of course. Q. Will you state what, if any, effect it may have upon the interests of free labor? Has it anj' effect upon the interests of labor outside ? A. To decrease the price of labor? Q. Yes. A. It certainly does not decrease the price. I may as well state, that, when the female prisoners manufactured clothing, we would get a shade better prices than were paid for work sent to Maine. They could send us goods in large quantities, and be sure of getting them at a certain time : so they paid us a little better price. Q. So that the product of your convict-labor does not come in conflict with the product of laborers outside ? A. No further than I have stated, that if we manufacture cer- tain quantities of stone, just that amount less is required from the other stone-yards of the State. It does not interfere with them beyond that, because we do not go into the market, and bid. Q. That is, the city of Boston paj's j'ou for your product pre- cisely what it pays for similar products outside ? A. Precisely the same. Q. There is no bad effect upon the interests of free labor out- side? A. I see none. Q. Will you give me your idea with regard to the effect of this system upon the reformation of the convict ? 42 A. Whether we should have some kind of labor for them, or let them lie idle? I moat certainly think it has a reformatory influence upon them. It also has a tendency to keep them from coming to the institution again. Stone-cutting is a labor they do not hanker after very much. I think that to-day we would have at least a hundred more House of Industry prisoners if that kind of labor had not been introduced. Q. Then yoii consider that that kind of labor is a deterrent, and has a reformatory tendency ? A. Yes. Q. From your experience and knowledge, what would you say with regard to abolishing your present system, and adopting the contract system? A. I should be very much opposed to adopting the contract system on the island. Q. You think it is more profitable to the city as now con- ducted ? A. I can handle it a good deal better now. Every thing is under my immediate control. I appoint my own foreman, buy my own stock, &c. Q. Your institution being a city institution, taking into con- sideration its location, do you think that the system of carrying on your convict labor as now carried on is preferable to a con- tract system ? A. On Deer Island, certainly. Our prisoners are mostlj' short- sentence men, and there are really very few of them that would do to put on contract labor. If I had fifteen hundred or a thousand long-sentence men I might think differently. I have an outlet for all this thirty-day labor by putting the men to improving the land. But if I had a thousand long-sentence men I might think differ- ently : that would change it entirely. Q. Taking the location, and the fact that your production is taken by the city of Boston, you consider that your system now is the best that you could adopt ? A. Yes. Q. (B3' Mr. LiTCHMAN.) You stated, in relation to the pecul- iar circumstances under which you were situated, that, if j'ou had a thousand long-sentence men, your mind might change. But would you not still be of the opinion that the discipline and man- agement of your institution would be better served under the present sj'stem than under the contract system ? A. If yoii could find a man who could run the prison properly, — run the shoe department, the cabinet-makers' department, and every thing of that kind, — it might be better (I presume it would) , if you made ever3'body responsible to the superintendent. But I do not know where you could find a man heavy enough. For an institution with two or three hundred inmates it would be better to do as we are doing at Deer Island. Q. Have you ever had any experience with the contract sys- tem? A. Yes : at the House of Correction. Q. "Will you please state, whether, in your judgment, the con- tract system interfered, with the discipline and management of the prison r 43 A. I cannot say that it did there. But I could see where it might, if you were not strict in your rules, and did not get after a man very quickly. There is a chance for instructors to connive with prisoners, and bring in letters and papers. There is certainly a liability of interference. Q. A probability? A. Yes : a probability. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What amount of labor do your men perform as compared with a fair day's labor outside? A. Our men do a fair day's work ; that is, a majority of them. Q. Do you know about what a day's work of a stone-cutter is outsi'de ? A. I do not. "We keep them at work all the time (we have instructors and overseers to watch them); and, if a man does that, he cannot do any more. He probably would get out more if he was working at piece-work for himself. But he does a fair day's physical labor. Q. "What fraction of a day's work does he do inside as com- pared with a day's work outside? A. I do not know that I could answer that question intelli- gently, as we do no piece-work ; and it is impossible to tell how much a man ought to do at stone-culting. Q. Who sets the task? A. There is no task. We have an instructor, who lays the work out, and an overseer, whose duty it is to see that the men work all the time. Q. (By Mr. Mabsh.) You know nothing as to the number of feet of rough stone they cut ? A. No. Our men are changing all the time. One week, per- haps, we have forty ; and the next, fifty. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) With regard to printing, how many are there emploj'ed? A. "We have at present twelve boys. Q. Do you conduct that trade for the purpose of teaching it? A. In part. The primary object in that was more to teach them a trade than to receive any pecuniary gain from it. I am happy to say, that, in that department, the pecuniary gain is good. Most of the printing we do for the city of Boston at city of Boston prices : a few people we trade with may give us some jobs. In the reformation department, my primary object would be to teach the boys trades they could foUovv. There are many trades taught there that a boy would not follow ; but, if they get the printing trade, they can get a living. We had the Printers' Union agaiilst us ; but we kept on printing. Q. Do you suppose that you interfere with printing outside ? A. Not a drop in the bucket. We may interfere with one firm, — the city p4pters. Q. The amount, as compared with the general industry of the State in that line, is trifling? A. Trifling, not worth mentioning ; that is, the amount we do at the present time. Q. (Bj' Mr. Hill.) Do you know of boys outside who have been in your establishment, and are now "working at the printing trade ? 44 A. I could not put my finger on them personally; but our agent knows two or three. We have not sent out many yet, because the trade has been started but a short time. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) The farming is simply for the purpose of keeping the reformatory boys employed ? A. Yes : in the summer time. We think that it is better for boj's to work part of the year than to go to school all the time. We take out sixty or seventy of the boys the first of May, and put them farming until the first of November : that gives them six months' solid schooling, and six months' solid farming. We only do that with the long-term boys who have a fair education. The truant boj's we do not take out of school at all. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) Do your men there learn any thing which will give them a chance to earn a living outside? A. In the stone department they do: in other departments they do not. Q. Then you hear sometimes of men working outside in the same business that they learned in there ? A. Yes. Q. Do these men who have learned a business like stone-cut- ting get back as often as men who have no means of employment ? A. They do not now. They get sick of it ; and the stone- cutters are not coming back so much as they did. Q. You do not credit it to the means of getting a living which they have secured, but to their dislike of the work ? A. Both. Q. What rule or regulation have you there, which enables you to look after reform-school boys after they get through, and see that they go right? A. We employ an agent for that purpose. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Whose duty it is to look after the boy after he leaves the institution ? A. Yes. But before a boy is pardoned, or placed on probation, it is the duty of the agent to investigate thoroughly .the place where he is going, or to find out about his home. The pardon depends a great deal upon the result of that investigation. Then - the next thing is to examine his record. If he has a good record, and a proper place to go to, the directors are only too glad to discharge him. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) I suppose a percentage of reform-school boj's return as inmates of the other institution ? A. Yes. Q. Is the percentage large, or small? A. Small. Q. Are they usuallj' those who had good reputations in the institution? A. No : they have been the " tough cusses,'-' usually. Q. I notice, that, in the report of the superintendent of the Elmira reformatory, the statement is made, that the majority of the young men who are sent there are those who have had school advantages, but have been indolent, and have not learned any thing. How is it with you? Do the boys who come show signs of having had school advantages before they came ? 45 A. Our boj's are mostly Boston boys, from the Boston schools, and their education is tolerably good. Mr. Eeed. The superintendent at Elmira speaks of the boys there as having a shocking inability to calculate the most trivial mathematical questions, except in subtraction. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) When they come there with a certain amount of education, you continue to improve that education ? A. Yes. Our main object at present, having no workshops, is to give all the boys a fair education. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) Do you employ any method to find out the physical and mental condition of the boys when they come there, — whether their parents were dissipated people, or whether thej' were subject to epilepsj' or any physical or mental disease ? A. No. We take them as we find them, and work on them as raw material. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Can you tell the amount of stone that you sell to the city in a year ? A. You have it in my written statement. Last year we were employing more men than at present. It was an experiment. At the present time we are employing longer-sentence men, and a better class. At that time I might put on a two-months' man at the stone-yard. I do not care now about putting a man on who has less than four months to serve. We labor under disadvantages at Deer Island. We have to pay a profit to the quarries, then have to unload it at the island, cut it, and reship it, when it would not cost any more to carry it from Rockport to Boston than from Rockport to Deer Island. Q. You say that the minimum term of a man whom you would put into the stone-yard would be four months ? A. I have put in men sentenced for two months. Q. What is the longest sentence ? A. Six months. Q. Any thing longer ? A. Rarely. Q. Then the men in the stone-yard are those who have from four to six months to serve ? A. Well, say three to six months. If a man had three months to serve, and was bright and smart, I would send him there. Q. Then the time they have to learn a trade is from three to six months ? A. Precisely. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Have you ever calculated the per diem price which you get for convicts ? A. No. It was an experiment, and I never wanted to know. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) Of course, the institution is not self- sustaining ? A. No. Q. It is not attempted to make it ? A. No. Nearly all our people do not earn a dollar. Q. The main object is reformation? A. Yes. We are really making money for the city all the time. We are improving the island, bringing tracts of land under 46 cultivation. That employs the thirty-day men, who are good for nothing else. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Do you use any machinery? A. Only plain machinery in the shoe shop. That is for mak- ing shoes for ourselves and the people at Rainsford's Island. Q. Is there any other machinery ? A. The sewiilg-machines. Q. How many ? , A. We vary from six to thirteen, — at present, thirteen. Four months ago, we had hard work to keep half a dozen machines going ; but they have been transferring a few women from Sher- born lately, and we have a larger number. Q. Are the sewing-machines run by men, or women ? A. By women altogether. Q. That is, for making clothing? A. Yes ; for the institution. Q. Suppose that there were in the city, or the State, or the United States, five thousand to ten thousand shoemakers (or men of any other trade), and only a certain percentage were allowed to work at that trade in prisons, don't you think that it would conflict less with outside labor ? A. It would interfere less in Massachusetts with outside labor. Q. How would it be in regard to the institution itself? Could it be worked profitably to the institution ? A. To employ so small a number ? Q. Yes. A. How many trades would you want to have carried on ? Q. Whatever trades you are working at now. A. We employ in the shoe-shop only those who have learned the trade outside. We do no contract labor. It is all for our- selves, so that it is different, and is a difficult question to answer. We employ as carpenters only those who have learned the trade outside, and so with tailors, blacksmiths, painters, &c. Q. Do you think that it would conflict less with outside labor if only a certain percentage were employed in prison ? A. Of course, the answer must be that it would conflict less. If you took all the prisoners, and put them at shoemaking, it would interfere with that trade. TESTIMONY OF NAHUM LEONARD. Nahdm Leonakd sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What is your connection with the work- house at Bridgewater? A. I am superintendent. Q. How long have you been connected with the institution ? A. Nine years. Q. Had you been connected with any other institution prior to that? A. No. 47 Q. What industries are carried on in your institution? A. We make chairs and harnesses under the contract system. Besides that, we make' shoes, some for the institution, and we make clothing for the institution. What I regard as our principal labor is the farm ; that is, in the summer time. We cannot use it much in the winter, of course. Q. How many convicts have you employed in chair-making ? A. About seventy-five. From seventy-one to seventy-five. Q. Who is the contractor for this work ? A. Martin Wesson of Springfield, I think. You were speak- ing of the industries, and 1 had not got quite through. The women knit stockings some, and of course our laundry work is done by them. At the present time we have no baker ; but ordi- narily we do our own baking by the inmates, and sometimes hire an officer to take charge. We usually have one or more black- smiths, carpenters, painters, and such like. Where we have those men, we keep them employed, so far as we can, doing any thing that is needed at the institution. The only contract work we have is this harness and chair-bottoming business. Q. Can you give us the details of the contract for these men in the chair department ? A. Yes. It is a good while since I read it ; but I will state the terms as nearly as I can recollect. The contract was made, I think, in the latter part of last December. He was to begin on the 1st of January, and for six months he was to pay at the- rate of $500 a year for all the inmates, or such of them as were not needed on other work in and around the institution. After that, he was to pay at the rate of $1,000 a year, with the privilege of renewing the contract for five years. Then there was a clause in it something like this : that, in case the number of men available for this work should be reduced materially below a hundred, the amount to be paid should be reduced proportionately. Those are the terms of the contract as nearly as I remember them. Q. What number have you engaged at this time on chair- seating ? A. It varies from sixty-eight to seventy-five : the average per- haps is seventy. On the harness business there are seven or eight. Q. The convicts have become familiar with seating chairs, I suppose, by this time? A. Yes, I should say so. Q. How many chairs do they seat, on the average, each day ? A. I am not able to tell you. The minutiae with regard to the business will have to be got from somebody besides me. I pay but very little attention to the work. I have no reason that I know of, to make myself familiar with the business. I furnish the men, and, when the quarter comes around, I seek to collect what is due, and turn it into the treasury. Q. The contractor supplies the instructor for the convicts ? A. He does. Q. Does he have the right to set the daily task of each convict? or does that belong to you ? A. I do not consider that he has the right to do so. Q. Who does set the daily task of the men, if they have one ? 48 A. They have none. They have no specified number of chairs to bottom, that I know of. Q. Does the instructor have any authority over the discipline of the convicts? A. He is expected to have a degree of discipline. He has been told something like this : that he is expected to notice mis- demeanors, and to report them to the ofHcer that I place there in charge. He has no authority to punish, only to report misde- meanors. It would be his duty to check a man, if he saw him doing any thing wrong. Then, if it was repeated, he should re- port it to the officer. Q. In case of a refusal of any of the men to perform the work assigned to them by yourself or the instructor, the instructor would report to the officer: what punishment would be inflicted on the convict for refusal ? A. He would be locked up ; not for refusing to do a specified task, because I do not think that is required. But, if he simply refused to work, he would be Ibcked up. Q. For what length of time ? A. He would come out the next day, or as soon as he said he would go to work. Q. What would be his fare during his term in the separate cell ? A. He would have bread twice a day, and water. If he should be there three days, he would have three meals and warm drink once. Q. If within your knowledge, will you state what the convicts earn per diem on the average ? A. To get at that I should have to take the amounts which I have turned into the treasury, and I haven't them with me this morning. I should prefer to be accurate, if you are going to take the figures down. I can get them at the treasury office, and they will show what I have paid in from this chair-shop ; and dividing that by the number of days they have worked would give the amount per day. But even that I could not get accurately here. Q. If within your knowledge, what do they pay outside in the shops for seating chairs ? A. I do not know. Q. So you have no means of knowing how the labor inside per diem of each man compares with the labor of a man outside? A. I have no knowledge of it excepting as I have read. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) How many men have you employed at the harness business ? A. I should say from six to eight. Q. Under the contract system ? A. Yes ; under this same contract. Q. Are all on the same contract? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Eeed.) Do these men whom you have bottoming chairs, and making harnesses, learn any business which will enable them to be self-supporting when they get out ? A. I should suppose the harness business would. Q. Did j'ou ever, of your own knowledge, know of any one supporting himself, after he got out, at a trade which he learned there ? 49 A. This harness business is established so recently that I cannot tell. In regard to the chair-bottoming, I have no case in mind where a man worked at it outside. It is a comparatively new business. Two or three men who worked on chairs last winter have returned. I asked them if they worked at the chair business while they were out, and they said they had not. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Was it because they could not find em- ployment, or because they were not willing to labor ? A. I did not follow up those questions, and cannot tell. Q. What influence, if any, has this labor upon the reformation of the men? A. My idea is this, that, so far as it cultivates a habit of in- dustry, it is good, it is excellent. The chair-shop is quite order- ly ; each one has a place, there is no confusion, and the men keep at work all day. In that respect I regard it as useful to the insti- tution as a reformatory. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) What per cent of the commitments to your institution are what the world would call able-bodied ? A.. A very large proportion now ; much larger than formerly. Q. Then you have men who are phj-sically capable of under- taking almost any work to earn a living, if disposed? A. Yes. Q. On what ground are they sent ? — as vagrants and tramps ? A. Yes ; that is the charge. A large number of them are charged as vagrants, and quite a good number are sentenced as common drunkards. Q. Do they send men there from the western part of the State ? — from Berkshire and Hampden Counties ? A. Yes. Q. Is it not a large bill of expense transporting these able- bodied bummers ? A. Yes, I should say so. Q. Can you tell about what it costs to bring a man, say froto Pittsfield, and commit him to your institution? Of course that includes officers' fees, travel, &c. ? A. I should suppose five dollars or five dollars and a half from Pittsfield to Boston ; from Boston to our place, ninety-five cents. Q. In your opinion, would it not be cheaper for the Common- wealth to have a similar institution in the western or central portion of the State than to congregate them all at Bridge water? A. If there were enough to fill the two institutions, I should say so. Q. That is just the question I was coming to. Are not the bulk of the inmates of your institution sent there from other por- tions of the State than those directly about you ? A. They come from all around, — from our own town, and ad- joining towns. Q. Isn't there a disposition among the authorities in the re- moter parts of the State to get rid of their local poor, and dump them into your institution ? A. I think so. Q. In other words, the local authorities of the country towns, 50 particularly in the western part of the State, add largely to the expense of maintaining your institution? A. That is my impression. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) How many inmates have you altogether? A. Two hundred and sixty I think, to-day. There is one thing, Mr. Reed, I should like to say. You are awar«, probably, that, when a town sends an inmate who has a settlement there, under our present system we collect a certain amount from the town. Of course many are sent who have no settlement, and nothing is paid for them. Q. (By Mr. Mokse. ) Whenever a person has no settlement, the State bears the expense ? A. The State bears the expense in all cases ; but, where a per- son has a settlement, the State can collect from the town. But the expense of travel, I suppose, comes out of the county directly. Q. (By Mr. Eeed.) In your opinion, are not a very large majority of the men who are sent to your institution better quali- fied for the jails and houses of correction ? A. A very large proportion of them are. I am speaking of those who have been sent there now for the last two or three j'ears. Formerlj' it was not so. Q. Are they not sent there, in your opinion, by the authorities of some of our counties, with an idea of placing the charge upon the State, rather than maintaining them in county institutions ? A. I cannot tell, of course, what their intention is. Q. You have heard that as a prevalent rumor? A. I have ; but then I would not want to say what their inten- tion is. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) The contract went into effect on the first of January, 1579? A. Yes. Q. For the first six months the pay was to be $250 ? A. Yes. Q. At the present time the contract is running at the rate of 81,000 a year. The contract provides that a pro rato reduction shall be allowed for all less than a hundred men furnished. Did j'ou at any time furnish more than a hundred men ? , A. Yes. Q. Was there any allowance to the State for that ? A. No. Q. All over a hundred the contractor got the benefit of ? A. Yes. Q. All under a hundred he got an allowance for ? A. Yes. Q. That is the arrangement now ? A. Yes. I do not suppose that there was more than a week when he had more than a hundred men ; but he did once. Q. That is not a matter of contract, but of understanding between you and the contractor ? A. The contract provides, if I remember, that he shall have what men we do not require for purposes in and around the institu- tion. He would have them all if we had two hundred. Q. The price paid for the convicts is based on a hundred men being furnished to the contractor ? 51 A. I should hardly say that. I do not understand that we could require him to pay any more, even if we furnished three hun- dred men. Mr. LiTCHMAN. That is the point I want to bring out. But, if it goes below a hundred, he is allowed a reduction. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) As so large a proportion are men who are about the same as those who are serving sentences in various penal institutions, is there any reason, in your opinion, why the various penal institutions of the State should not employ a portion of their inmates in working on the land as j'ou do, and thus be able to assist in feeding the inmates of the institutions? You have no difficulty in cultivating your farm there ? A. The most risky men we do not put on the farm. Q. You put on the farm the feebler and more trustworthy men, — the same kind of men you find in every institution? A. Yes. Q. In your opinion as manager of a large farm, would it be impossible for any institution holding a large number of inmates to employ upon the soit the same class of convicts that you do ? A. Every penal institution must have some men whom it would be safe to put on a farm, especially men whose sentences have nearly expired. A man who has a short time to serve would not be likely to risk trying to escape. Q. In your experience as an officer of a reformatory institu- tion, is it cheaper to raise products than to buy them in the market? A. In my opinion, very much cheaper. Q. Then, if an institution could employ its inmates upon a farm, there is no reason why, with proper management, it should not be a productive industry ? A. No. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Is this Mr. Wesson a chair-maker? A. I think not. Q. For whom does he bottom these chairs ? A. I cannot tell you. When he started, I think he made them for some one in Gardner. Q. Do you know for whom the harnesses are made ? He is not a harness-maker ? A. I do not remember. Q. Is there anj'^ reason why you should not take these chairs directly from the Gardner party as well as to have this middle man come between you and the manufacturer ? A. In some respects it perhaps would be better, but in others not so well. If the institution is pretty well iilled up, the superin- tendent has all he can do to attend to the usual affairs of the in- stitution without going into outside business for the institution. Q. It saves you considerable trouble having this middle man? A. Yes : it saves the superintendent considerable trouble. It would be a question in my mind whether it would be a good plan to have the superintendent engaged in business ; but I have not studied the question much. Q. I suppose that you are aware, that, in many of the other institutions, that is done to a considerable extent? 52 A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Moese.) In your judgment, is the contract sys- tem the better as between that and the public-account system ? A. I have had so little experience, that I do not feel that I am able to give an opinion upon the question of wv^ value. If you demand of me an answer, of course I shall give it. Mr. Morse. Not at all. Q. (By Mr. Maksh.) By whom was that contract made on behalf of the institution? A. By the inspectors and the superintendent, — trustees they would be now. • Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) How large a tract of land have you under cultivation, or under your control ? A. Two hundred and twenty-flve acres is the whole. Q. How much under cultivation? A. A hundred and seventy-five acres. Q. How large a proportion of your inmates do you employ on the farm in the farming-season ? A. This past season we have employed an average of fifty. Q. About what per cent of the whole number? A. About twenty per cent. Q. What I want to get at is this : "Whether the convicts in our diflferent institutions could not be employed in farming (at least a good percentage of them) , in reclaiming waste land, and improving land, to their benefit and to the benefit of the State? What is your experience of that from handling labor on your farm ? A. Of course, when you are on a farm like ours, with woods all around, it does not answer to take out men who are very des- perate, and very determined to get away. Of course, you might take men out by putting a ball and chain on them, and keep a great many. But we never have done that, and I suppose the sentiment of the State would not justify it. If you put men in a dangerous place, of course you have to increase the number of officers. In many of these penal institutions they would have, I suppose, a good manj' men who could not be safely put upon the farm, unless strongly guarded, and then comes the necessity for more oflScers and more expense. Q. (By Mr. Tatlor.) How do you class these inmates ? A- They are all under sentence. Q. But not for any great crime ? A. Thej' are all under sentence, except a few who were trans- ferred from Tewksbury by order of the Board of State Charities. In case they get very full at Tewksbury, they may transfer paupers temporaril}'. Q. Have you many of that class there ? A. Very few. Q. What are the average sentences of the men at Bridge- water? A. I should say a year. -The lowest sentence they can give them is three months ; and the longest, two j'ears. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Carrying forward the idea of the con- victs laboring upon the farm six months in the year, what could you do with that class of convicts during the other six months to any advantage to the institution? 53. A. We have done in this way: we have a great deal of double wall that we have built around the institution ; and in the fall, before the ground freezes, we would dig a trench, and haul stone near it ; then in the winter, when the weather is not too cold, we would have the gang out building wall. That has been one occupation. Last winter they were engaged in cutting wood off a lot that the State bought two or three years ago, — twenty- five acres. They were engaged in cutting off the wood, and piling it up. And then we have some threshing, of course, and over- hauling vegetables, which keeps some of the poorer class of in- mates employed. They do hot work very fast, and so it takes them a good while to do a little. That keeps many of them em- ployed. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) You have men on open-air work who have served terms in houses of correction and the State Prison ? A. Ob, J'es ! We have many. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Are some in charge of the stables and cattle and swine? A. Yes. Those are men either whose terms have nearly ex- pired, or who have experience, and can be trusted. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) In relation to the indeterminate sentence in operation in New York, have you given any attention to that? What effect would it have upon the discipline of the convicts ? A. I have given the matter some thought, but not enough to give much value to my answer. My impression has been favora- ble, so far as I have looked into it. Q. Have you ever had control of any other institution? A. No. Q. Then your opinion of the indeterminate sentence, so far as you have investigated it, is favorable to it? A. So far as I have given it any thought, my impression has been favorable. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What, probably, is the average age of the convicts in your institution ? A. The average of the women would be forty-five or fifty, and of the men thirty-two or thirty-three. Q. (Bj- Mr. Taylor.) As to what could be done in winter? A. Well, clear up to Thanksgiving, we would be engaged on the farm. We may say, that, up to the first of December, we can work out doors. December, January, and February, there may be three months when they will be Inside, or doing such work outside as our necessities will allow, — building stone wall, looking out for the wood, handling manure, overhauling vegetables, taking care of the stock, and preparing for the next season. We raise a good many beans, and we save those for the cold weather, if we can. Then there is the threshing, and there are a great many small jobs that do not occur to me now. 54 Oct. 24, 10.30 A.M. TESTIMONY OF CHARLES D. BURT. Chaelks D. Buet sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What is j-our position in connection with the Nfew Bedford House of Correction ? A. I am the keeper of the Jail, and master of the House of Correction. Q. How long have you been connected with that institution? A. I went there on the first of October, 1860. Q. Had you ever been connected with any other institution before that? A. I was at that institution one year, in 1852, but at no other institution. Q. What kinds of business are carried on in your institution? A. Shoemaking. Q. Is it on account of the county, or by contracting the labor of the convicts ? A. On account of the county. Q, What amount of capital has the county invested in the stock and product of the institution ? A. Do you mean the amount of merchandise ? Q. Yes. A. For what time ? Q. Well, an average stock that you may have on hand. The average amount? A. I do not know. I could give it last year from October to October, but perhaps not more accurately than that. Q. Very well. (By Mr. Marsh.) Let us understand what you are about to give. Do you mean the raw stock on hand, and the purchases you made during the year? A. Yes. Oct. 1, 1878, we had $6,677.30, manufactured and unmanufactured. We produced during the year, from October to October, $24,217.98, making 130,895.28 ; the tools and machin- ery at that time were worth $2,701, making a total of $33,596.28. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) How many men have you employed in shoemaking ? A. I should think the average would be from seventy-five to eighty. Q. Can you tell the profits of the year's work, — last year, for instance ? A. Yes. Our accounts are kept the same as any merchant's. The amount of sales for the year was $31,427.69 ; stock on hand Sept. 30, 1879, at the close of the year, $8,316.95; tools and machinery, $2,242, reduced in valuation. Q. That will leave you how much net profit for the year's labor from your convicts employed ? A. $8,390.35, less a hundred tons of coal, which we estimate at $490, leaving a net balance of profit of $7,900.35. Q. Can you tell us the average income from each convict ? A. The average number who actually labor is seventy-five to 55 eighty. With eighty, the labor of each would bring in about thirty-two cents a day: with seventy-five, it would be about thirty-four, according to the receipts for the year. Q. What portion of a day's work does each man perform, com- pared with a fair daj^'s work outside? A. That is a very difficult question for me to answer. * I can tell the hours of labor. Q. What are they? , A. They begin at quarter-past seven, and work until twelve ; from twelve ^o one, dinner ; and then they are out at six, except during the season of the year when the days are shortened, and they have to come out earlier. Our rule is to close the prison- doors about sunset. Q. An average of about nine hours ? A. Yes : more than that, I think. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) What kind of work is it that you make ? A. We make brogans, balmorals, congress-shoes, seamen's pumps, some boots, and that class of work. Q. Mostly men's work? A. We make a few boys' shoes of the same kind of stock, to use up the pieces. Q. State what your average product is for each convict a day, — how many pairs a day a convict is expected to make ? A. We are making about six twenty-four-pair cases a day. We have not been making so many heretofore ; but we are making that now. We made thirty-six thousand pairs last year. Q. Have you any outside men employed in the prison- as in- structors ? A. Yes. Q. Have you any to do any branch of the trade as cutters or fitters ? A. Well, we have two men who are employed, — one as cutter, and one as instructor, — who have nothing to do with the discipline of the prison or the men, excepting when the other ones happen to be out for a moment. We have two other men, who have been there for some time, who are instructors and also officers. That makes four whom we call regular instructors. Q. Is your work all done by hand ? A. No. Our pegging and sewing are done by machinery. Q. Run by men ? A. Yes. Q. Have you a McKay -machine? A. No. Our work is all pegged. Q. Have yon anj- machinery in fitting the stock ? A. We fit partly by machinery. Q. Can you recollect the machines you use ? A. We have the die machine, for cutting up soles, and we have the welt machine. Q. Do you have a heeling-machine ? A. No. Q. You run by steam-power ? A. Yes. 56 Q. Have you made any estimate as to the cost of your steam- power? A. We calculate that a hundred tons of coal is the heaviest part. Q. In the estimate you have presented, that is included in the cost of running your factory ? A. Yes. We calculate that that is all we use in running that engine. Q. You use steam for heating? A. We do the exhaust, some. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) The shoes, brogans, and congress- shoes that you make, are, I suppose, what we call South-shore work, such as they make in Abington, Scituate, &c. ? A. No, Natick work. I do not know what is made in those places. We make the ordinary buff congress, half-double sole and tap sole. The balmoral is very much the form of the Bay- state. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) From your experience and knowledge, what would you., say with regard to the effect of the production of your prison upon the general industries of the State ? A. I cannot think it would affect them much. 1 do not think our work is extensive enough. We sold 31,600 .pairs of shoes last year ? Q. Where do you sell them ? A. In Boston, Providence, New York, Fall River. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) State the price per pair, how the average of prices runs ? A. A large portion of our congress-shoes have been sold for about eighty cents net ; our balmorals for about ninety-five. The prices are made for me, and I send the bills accordingly. Q. Will you furnish us with a complete list of your prices, &c.? A. Yes ; as well as I can. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Are they current prices ? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) You have named all the kinds of goods that you make? A. Yes. There were some Alexis, which I forgot, for Chicago ; but we did not send many. Q. (By Mr. Eeed.) There were a good many sold in Balti- more once : how is that now ? A. Yes ; but we do not sell many there now. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) By whom are the prices of these goods made? A. By the county commissioners. Q. On what basis do they make the price ? Is the price made in accordance with the cost of the goods ? A. Yes. Q. They are supposed to include a profit in the price? A. Yes. Q. Are any of your county commissioners in the shoe busi- ness? A. Mr. Gray, who has had more particularly to do with the 67 shoe department the last year, was not acquainted with the shoe business at all -previous to becoming a county commissioner, ■which was the year previous. He commenced upon it last year, and folfowed it up very closely, and has watched the thing very carefully throughout. ' Q. In reckoning the cost of these goods, what allowance is made for labor? A. The only answer I can make to that is, that we figure by the cost. The commissioner goes to the cutter, and takes the cost of what he cuts ; then he goes to the one who puts the bottom on, and gets his price of the bottom ; then they sit down and figure up what the stock costs ; then the commissioner says, " We must get so much for these shoes." Q. As to whether he adds to the cost of the stock any fixed price for the cost of labor, you do not know ? A. Of course he calculates that we ought to get something for the labor ; but, as to how much, I am not able to tell you. Q. It is a very important point to know whether, in reckoning the price for the shoes, you include any thing for profit. A. Yes : I understand. Q. Would it not, in your opinion, be better for the discipline of the prison if those two men whom you say come in from out- side should be oflScers, so that there might be four officers, instead of , two? A. We do not need them as officers. One of our men that we have for instructors is an excellent instructor ; but he would not be worth much for an officer. Q. Do you find any inconvenience from the outside infiuence ? A. I do not know that we do. Q. What is the efliect of your system upon the reformation of the convict? A. I do not know that that kind of labor is any more benefi- cial in its effect in that respect than any, other kind. Q. You consider that labor is a reformatory element? A. Oh, yes ! Q. What effort do j'ou make to reform your convicts, otherwise than the labor performed ? A. Nothing in particular, that I know of, except their attend- ing church on Sunday. Q. Have you any school ? A. No school. Q. The sabbath instruction, moral and religious, is all you have in that regard ? A. Yes, except in the female department: a lady from the Union for Good Work comes up about every week, and preaches an hour. Q. Do the teachers or instructors have any bad or good effect upon the reformation of the convicts as they come in contact with them? A. I think they do. Q. The moral influence is good? A. Yes. I think there is a great difference in people in regard to that. Some instructors would be men that the men would very 58 soon get displeased with, and there would be trouble. Another instructor would go along with the men without any trouble : they would respect him, and like him, and he would get his work done in good shape. Q. Your instructors are men of that character ? A. Yes : we have endeavored to have that kind. I had one a year, ago who was a good shoemaker ; but the men did not care any thing about him, or care whether they did their work or not. I relieved him, and got another man, and there has been no trouble since. He was a good man, but did not seem to have the tact to get along with the men comfortably. Q. Have you any experience in the contract convict-labor system ? . A. None whatever. Q. Frbm your experience and knowledge, would you state that the system which you now have is the best for the interest of the institution and of the moral reformation of the convicts ? A.. Not having had any experience with the contract system, it would be difficult to decide that question; but, from a general look at the matter, my idea is, that our course is the best. There is very apt to be clashing and trouble under contracts. ^ Q. ■ Was the contract system in vogue in your institution at any time that you know of ? A. Never, that I know of. They tried to do it on several oc- casions.; once, I recollect, four or five years ago. We advertised in Boston and other cities, but could not get a bid. Q. So that you have been compelled, rather than otherwise, to adopt the present system ? A. Yes ; regardless of pecuniary results. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) It is not long since you have had the whole force of the prison employed in boot and shoe business? A. No. A year ago last summer we changed the basket-shop into a shoe-shop. Q. Why was that change made ? A. It was difficult to get the stock to make baskets. It was nearly all used up in that vicinity; and, when we had to go on the cars to get it, the trade was such, that we could not get a new dollar for an old one. Q. Was there a gain, or a loss, b}'' the change? A. For that year, the profit fell oflf materiallj'. Q. The House of Correction in New Bedford has the reputa- tion for being clean and neat. In putting things in order, do you depend upon the labor of convicts,, or do you bring in outside mechanics for painting, &c. ? A. There is very little of the inside work, such as painting, done by outsiders. Frequently we have painted the whole institu- tion outside by our own men. The last time that we did general painting, I suggested to the commissioners that we emploj' one man, and take two or three men that we had, and let them work with him ; that to put them alone for that work I feared would not be profitable. We adopted that course. We calcut&te to do all the ordinary repairing that is possible to be done. But last year we changed the mode of heating, by returning the condensed 59 water to the boiler, which required a pretty heavy expenditure, and that was done by a Boston house. But, for all ordinary matters, we mean to employ our own men. Q. Would you consider it better for discipline to have it done by them, or by outsiders ? A. To have it done by them, because we can take men who are almost useless for mechanical work, and they are good for that. Q. Do 3'ou consider that those who work on shoes learn some- thing that will be useful to them outside ? A. Yes. Q. Do yon know of any cases ? A. I know of one instance where a man was released three or four months ago. He had been an inmate of the institution a number of years. He had been there when a boy, and several times afterwards ; but we talked to him, and advised him so much, that he resolved not to come back. He started out to do the best he could, and I have heard of him as being employed, and doing well. But generally there are very few of them who will profit by it. Q. In all your experience of about twenty years as a prison oflBcer, do you find that men, when thej- get out, seek to earn a livelihood at the trade or occupation which they learned inside ? A. No : that is not my experience. Q. Are those who show the most proficiency, and often the most industry, very apt to get back? A. Yes. Q. Can you tell the Committee about what per cent of recom- ' mitments you have there ? A. From July to October I recollect there were a hundred and fifteen recommitments. Q. In three months ? A. Yes. , Q. (By Mr. Reed.) That does not show, then, that the prison discipline and the prison trades eflTect a very radical reformation in the, lives of the men sent there? A. No. I think there were eighty-five or eighty-seven first committals, and a hundred and fifteen who had been previously committed. Q. For what offence are the bulk of your men sent there ? A. I suppose it is drunkenness. It must be : it cannot be any thing else. Q. When those men are sent there, and serve out short sen- tences, for drunkenness, are they good men to work? A. Some of them are very good men ; but most of them are not. You see, they are usually sent there for thirty days. The average length of sentence in our institution (I figured it up in July) is eightj--four days, — less than three months. Q. Have you ever given the matter any study, so that j'ou can give a definite idea, whether a larger proportion of persons are not sent to your institution for drunkenness, than to any other similar institution in the State ? A. It is very diflScult for me to tell : I have not looked for that. I know that the largest proportion of ours are for drunken- ness and disturbance of the peace, which is probably drunken- ness. Q. In your long experience as a, prison oflScer, do you find that imprisonment for drunkenness works any reformation in the char- acter of the man who is in prison for that crime? A. I have very grave doubts about it. I hardly think it does. My reason for that is this : as our community is constituted, a person who has gone along in drunkenness until he has got into prison has previously been admonished, and usually assisted and relieved, and has not profited by it. Then he gets into the House of Correction ; and there is a saying among the prisoners, that, if you come to the House of Correction once, you have got to come three times. ' Q. So far, then, as you will venture an opiniop, would you say that your House of Correction is in any way a reformatory institution ? A. When you come to permanent reformation, I have grave doubts as to whether there is any institution in this Common- wealth that affords it to any extent, though there are some cases, undoubtedly. Q. You consider, then, that they are rather penal than reform- ^atory ? A. Yes : that is my idea about it, and my experience too. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Would it be better for the reformation of the convicts, if the laW were changed, so that, for the second offence of drunkenness, the sentence should be not less than four months? , A. Yes. I think it would be beneficial, for this reason : I think it would give them a better chance to have their systems straightened out. When they are in for thirty days, it takes generally several days before they are worth any thing ; and then, after that, the time is so short that you cannot do any thing with them. Then they go out, and very soon get drunk again. I do not know that it would make any particular difference. If a man is bound to get drunk, he will get drunk, whether he comes out in thirty days or four months. Q. Would not the chance of reformation be greater, if the sentence for the second offence were four, six, or eight months ? A. I do not know but it would be better to have it four or six months. It would be rather severe to have eight months. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) In your opinion, does not the punish- ment of the offence of drunkenness by imprisonment in the House of Correction work more of a hardship on the family of the con- demned than it does a reformatory influence upon the person sent ? A. Yes. If they have a family, the hardship comes on the family. Q. And there is nothing but the punishment of mere imprison- ment on the condemned ? A. That is all. Q. (By Mr. Tatlob.) But you still think, that, if men were confined from four to eight months, it would have a beneficial effect? 61 A. Yes : the thirty days does not seem to amount to any thing. Q. If your general statement, that there is no reformation, is correct, what would be the difference ? A. We have not had the experience to tell what would be the effect of long sentences. Q. You have had experience with other prisoners on long sentences ? A.- Yes ; but for other crimes. Drunkenness is a different thing. Q. Perhaps a disease ? A. I do not know but it is. Q. Don't you think, that, for the first offence, it would be better to imprison a man five days than thirty days ? A. No. I do not think he would get straight in five days. Q. For the first offence of drunkenness? A. Not for the first offence. Three-fourths of them have been drunk perhaps for a week previous, and, when they come in, they are in such a condition that to straighten them up, or get them in proper condition, takes more than five days. I advise, that, in the first instance, the punishment should be a fine. Q. (By Mr. LiTCHMAN.) How are the goods sold ? A. Under the direction of the count}' commissioners. Q. By agents, or auction, or how? A. Those we send to Baltimore (perhaps thirty or fortj' cases of balmorals, about forty pairs in a case) have been sold by auction. Q. In Baltimore auction-houses? « A. Yes. Q. How are the other goods sold ? A. A very few have been sold in New York : the others are sold by orders. Q. How are the orders obtained? A. There is one man in Raynham whom we made an arrange- ment with last year to sell some of the goods. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) What is his name? A. Zeno A. Kelley. Q. (By Mr. LiTOHMAN.) A manufacturer ? A. Yes. ■ Q. You spoke of New York. Are the goods sold at auction there ? A. At one place. Q. Are New York and Baltimore the only places where they are sold at auction? A. I think some in Chicago. Q. The others are sold by this Mr. KeUey that you speak of I A. Oh, no ! Nothing like. Q. How are the goods sold ? A. We sell a good many direct to Hathaway, Soule, & Har- rington of New Bedford, and we sell to some parties in Provi- dence. Q. By whose solicitation are those orders obtained ? or do they send them in themselves ? A. Hathaway, Soule, «fe Harrington's come through the com- missioners : that is the heaviest sale. 62 Q. You have three county commissioners ? A. Yes. Q. What are their names ? A. We have only two now, — one died a short time ago. Franklin Gray of Fall River is the principal shoe man, and then there is Henry A. Thayer of Taunton. Q. What is Mr. Thayer's business ? A. He is a machinist. Q. What was the business of the gentleman who died ? A. He did not have any particular business. He was formerly an apothecary. Q. Does Mr. Gray use any of the goods ? A. No. Q. Then you sell partly by auction, partly by agent, and partly by order? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Do you know that any of these goods, or part of them, are similar to those made by Mr. Kelley, or by Hathaway, Soule, & Harrington? A. I know they are not like those made by Hathaway, Soule, & Harrington. Q. They make fine goods ; but Kelley does not? A. I do not know that Mr. Kelley makes that kind of goods. Q. (By Mr. Mouse.) In your opinion, is the quality of the goods turned out in your institution as good as the quality of the same class outside ?• A. I think it- is. I think the workmanship has been better the last year. TESTIMONY OF DR. Y. G. HURD. Dr. Y. G. Hurd sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What is your official connection with the institution at Ipswich ? A. I am master of the House of Correction, and superintendent of the Insane Asylum. Q. How long have you been connected with this institution? A. Fourteen years next January. Q. Had 3'ou ever been connected with any other institution prior to your being connected with this ? A. No. Q. What kinds of business are carried on at your institution ? A. At the present time, only the manufacture of inner-soles from leather-scraps, what is known as pancake, except what we do with a small garden. We have five acres of land which we carry on. But the present work inside is only this manufacture of inner-soles and heels. Q. How many convicts do you have employed upon that •work? A. From fifty to sixtj'', on an average. I suppose to-day there are fifty-five. 63 Q. What number do you employ in the garden, or on the farm? ' • A. Perhaps an average, on the land, of, say, six or eight ; some- times more. Q. On what account do you employ these convicts indoors ? A. They are employed by contract. Q. Who is the contractor? A. The present contractor is J. F. Ross of Ipswich. His contract was for two years, and it expires Nov. 1 next. Q. What do you get per diem for the labor? A. Fourteen cents, under this contract. Q. What did you get under the former contract? A. I think the last contract previous to this was fifteen cents ; and the one before that was twenty -eight cents ; and previous to that we had a contract as low as ten cents.- When I went there, fourteen years ago, the contract was ten cents, and it has varied from that to twenty-eight cents. We have had twelve, fifteen, and now fourteen ; but I cannot give the exact dates. Q. What amount of work does each man perform, as compared with the work outside ? A. I have , not the slightest idea. I do not know any thing about this pancake work. If anybody can tell how many women's inner-soles: can be, made outside, I can tell what we consider a fair day's work there. After a few days, the}' expect a"man to make .sixty, and there are some who make as many as a hundred. Q. (By Mr. Maksh.) Do you mean from sixty to a hundred pancakes ? A. Yes; but these are women's inner-soles. What they con- sider a day's work for a man who has just begun is to make sixty pairs. Q. (By Mr. Mokse.) How many hours per diem do they work ? A. The hours are from seven to twelve, and one to six, except in the short days. When the days are short, we do not go in until half-past seven, and sometimes come out at half-past four. Q. Is this a work that the convict can obtain outside, so as to earn a livelihood by it? A. I should think not. There is a good deal of that work done outside, I suppose ; but it is not a business which is very large, or employs a great many men, in our locality, where they would be likely to reach it. There may be some in Lynn ; but it is not a large business. I should not say, as a general fact, that that sort of business -is one that they gain any thing by learning there. Any man can learn it in three days. Q. What is the amount produced monthly or yearly by your convicts, — those employed by the contractors ? A. I cannot tell you. Q. What effect, if any, has it upon the general industries of the State? A. I should not think it had any perceptible effect. Q. What effect upon the interests of free labor ? A. 1 should not think any perceptible. The only way in which it could affect that branch of labor outside is, if the contractor, by 64 hiring men at fourteen cents a day, can make his goods so as to put them on the market at a less price than other pa,rties, then, of course, that particular industry, to that extent, would be im- paired. "Whether that is done or not, I have not the means of knowing. Contractors do not tell masters their business very much. In addition to the -fourteen cents a day, the contractor is obliged to furnish a suitable master of the shop, who has charge of it. We do not furnish any officer for the shop. The contract has always been made that the person whom the contractor fur- nishes shall be satisfactory to the master. When such a man is not there, I can shut up the shop at any time. The matter is entirely within my control, and the contractor pays for the man. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Is the discipline of the shop under him? A. Yes. Q. No officer present ? A. No. Q. (By Mr. Moese.) He is the instructor and the disciplina- rian? A. Yes. Q. In case the men do not do the task assigned, what is done with them ? A. They are reported to me ; and what is done with them is a matter in my discretion. Sometimes the shop-master reports a man without being able to tell as well as I can what is a fair day's work for him. One man's da3''s work may not be another's. Q. Does the instructor set the task ? A. Practically he does ; but the application to any individual is entirely within my management. Q. The instructor has no authority to punish ? A. No, only to report; and then it is a matter for me to investigate. Q. What effect has the presence of this instructor upon the moral reformation of the convicts ? A. So far as the moral effect upon the convict is concerned, steady labor and good discipline are as much as you can expect in a shop. If a shop-master commands the respect of the convicts, and secures good order, the effect is as good as can be expected. There are some very good men who are entirely unfit to have charge of a shop of convicts. In one instance, I was compelled to close the shop, and notify the contractor that he must get another man ; not because he was not a good man, but he was not a good disciplinarian. What the effect is depends entirely upon the man. I am fortunate in having at the present time a man who com- mands tlie entire respect of the prisoners ; and the discipline is all that could be desired. Labor is steady and well performed ; and the moral effect of steady labor and discipline is something. Q. Taking the work which you perform there, and the oversighti of it by this instructor, the moral effect is good, is it? A. I do not think that dirty kind of work is adapted to pro- duce the highest type of morals. It is the dirtiest work that can bo. It is dirty and disagreeable, and the worst kind of business that ever was. I do not think the business is fit for convicts. 65 Q. How did it come about that you established this kind of trade ? A. The men were let by contract to parties who bid the highest on advertised proposals ; and they put in the kind of labor that suited them best. Previous to this contract, we had cane-seating. Q. Are the profits derived from this work more than from chair- seating? A. Both were by contract. Q. Were the prices the same, or nearly the same? A. Nearly the same. I do not recollect the precise figures. It seems to me it was fifteen cents. But that was a clean, nice kind of work, and, so far as cleanliness and comfort are con- cerned, much better than the present. Q. What length of sentences have you ? A. Thej' vary from thirty days to five years ; rarely for five years. The average length is a little over three months, — between tl^ree and four months. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) What oflfence brings the largest number of commitments to you? A. Drunkenness, under the three forms of commitment, — simple drunk, as we know it, for which the statute prescribes fine and costs, and, for non-payment, commitment : second of- fence ; and common drunkard. I have made a careful calculation of that matter, to see the percentage that came there from drunk- enness in its three forms — of those whom I knew had drunken- ness for the real cause, — and it varies but little from time to time from sixtj' per cent. In other words, sixty per cent come through drunkenness, either directly or as a secondary cause. I suppose the percentage is larger ; but that is what I have actual knowledge of. Q. Does confinement for drunkenness have any reformatory effect? A. In general, I should saj' no ; though there have been ex- ceptions. There was a man who came to us at least three times (the last time apparently at death's door with delirium tremens) , who comes under that class. He has now been a reformed man for three years, and is an officer in Lynn. Q. But that is a little candle that shines brightly in the midst of the darkness? A. I know of other cases. But there is no reformation in general. Q.' Doesn't punishment for drunkenness affect a man's family in a penal way fully as much as it does the convict? A. I think it does, in a majority of cases ; probably more so. Some drunkards are sent for thirty days, and the family have a respite for that time. Q. But, in a majority of cases, the family of a man who is a man suffers as much as he does ? A. It is a many-sided question. A man does not get com- mitted for a simple drunk until he has been drunk perhaps a week. If he is sent for thirty days, he is straightened out. If he has a fine, it is punishment for his family, who have to pay the fine. Q. Does imprisonment for drunkenness have any effect- ii* reducing the number of recommitments for that offence ? A. Practically none. Q. Finally, do j'ou regard your institution as reformatory in any respect? In other words, is it reformatory, or penal? A. It is penal. "While I recall some instances, with a great deal of gratification, where there was reform by some persons who had been there a term of years, and are now doing well, yet those are the exceptions. Those are the persons whom some calamity or misfortune got into trouble, and who would not be liliely to do wrong again ; and I would not credit the prison with their reformation. But the majority of those who come there, or to any other prison, belong to the class of society that we expect to be a criminal class, and have repeated imprisonment. Q. Then, in your opinion, the common idea that our penal in- stitutions do men good in the waj- of teaching them tra(ies by which they can obtain a livelihood outside, and also exercising a reforma- tory influence, is unfounded ? A. That is the general fact. When we have had shoemaking as a trade, we have had some boys who followed the trade after thej' went out ; but the general effect is as stated. The general idea is unfounded, and it is not in the nature of things that it should be otherwise. Q. (By Mr. Maksh.) Don't you think that a rule which would apply to your institution might not apply to the State Prison, or any other institution where men are sent on long sen- tences ? A. If a man has three years, he can learn a trade. But bear in mind, that, when you go to the State Prison, you have a class of men most of whom have trades. They know too much already, and that class of men is different entirely from those who get to the houses of correction. The common drunkard, if he had three years, or a year even, might get over the appetite. But now the extra-humanitarians expect us to take men for from thirty days to six months, and take away an appetite they have had all their lives, and perhaps inherited. I should not like to make a compar- ison between the State Prison and our institution, without recog- nizing the diff'erence between the classes of men in the two institu- tions. Q. If they had longer time, would they not be more likely to get a good trade ? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) I believe you are a physician? A. Yes. Q. Have j'ou ever made any study of the mental and physi- ological condition of the men who come to'you, to find out whether a large percentage of them are not the children of parents who were affected with epilepsy, or the victims of the effects of dissipation handed down, or stored up in some way, by the mental disturb- ances which have been visited upon the children ? A. That has been a matter of particular study and interest to me for many j-ears. My attention was directed that way before I went to the institution. In attempting to trace the antecedents of a particular individual, the trace would so soon get lost, that it is a difficult thing to do. Bear in mind that every person has got. 67 after a father and a mother, four grandparents, eight great.grand- parents, and so on ; and the traits which might crop out in one generation might be lost for two more. So it is a difficult matter ; for I never have found any person who could give an intelligent account of his eight great-grandparents, and very few, of their four grandparents. But, so far as I can get at it from the persons of whom I have had an opportunity to learn something, the gen- eral rule is, that there was something wrong about their parents, in the case of a majority of those who are drunkards, or the vic- tims of some kind of mental vice or disease. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) They were conceived, and born, and raised in drunkenness ? A. They were conceived in iniquity. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) Do you recognize the fact, that, in all our large communities,. there is a criminal class, so called? A. I do. Q. Have your investigations also led you to believe that the majority of people who belong to this criminal class in all its rami- fications are congenital criminals, rather than those who become criminals by accident? A. I would say that they are inevitably criminal from their antecedents. Q. in the same connection, do you consider that it would be expedient on the part of the State to attempt to provide a prison where the indeterminate sentence would be carried out, in order that these persons who are mentally diseased, or criminals by antecedents, could be studied and dealt with, and put under differ- ent influences from ordinarj^ persons? A. I think so. I believe that there is a considerable propor- tion of this class who belong naturally in the criminal class, who could not be expected to rise out of it, to whom simple imprison- ment does no good, but many of whom, if they could have a little restraint, might be kept out of crime, and made self-supportifag at least, and decent members of society. I believe fully that the indeterminate sentence, with suitable arrangements for the super- vision and observation of this class outside, is the right one, and would be much more effectual in saving a good many of this class of people than simple sending to prison. They want a little help. They want to have the feeling ithat somebody has the power to observe and restrain them. Q. In j'our experience, do you find that the majority of your commitments are persons who are illiterate, — I mean those who know little more than barely to read and to write so as to be understood ? A. I think, as we get the record, that not over a third of them will say that they have had even an ordinary common-school edu- cation. Q. Then, in your opinion, illiteracy, bad antecedents, poverty, and crime go hand in hand ? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) You have referred to the fact that you have had previously another kind of industry ? A. Yes. Q. Have you ever worked convicts on the land ? A.^ We do that constantly. Q. " How large a proportion ? A. I should say an average of about six ; but sometimes we would have ten out. We have five acres of land, and with that we make a vegetable-garden, — a market-garden to some extent. We use men enough on it to do the work ? Q. Is there any opportunity to enlarge the ground? A. No. Q. You have all j'ou can obtain ? A. Yes. The county commissioners, just before I went there, sold several acres of land, which has always been a source of re- gret to me. Q. Will you give j'our opinion in regard to the use of convict- labor for that employment ? A. There is a considerable class of convicts which can be used for that. They will not take any unreasonable advantage of it. The employment has a better effect for the time being, and I think for ultimate reformation. Q. How much income does the prison receive from the labor on the farm ? A. That varies from year to year. I have sold as low as two hundred dollars' worth in a year, and as high as a thousand «lollars, from those five acres. But that does not include all that we raise, because we raise, all the vegetables that we use ourselves. We sell only our surplus. Q., Does this go towards the expenses of the institution ? A. What we use, of course does. The proceeds of what we sell go into the county treasury. Q. Then it is your opinion that a certain percentage of the inmates of an institution like yours could profitably be employed in farming ? A, I am sure of it, from so many years' experience, constantly doing it. Q. What is the average number of your inmates ? A. For several j'ears, male and female, about a hundred. Q. Taking a hundred as the whole, how large a percentage could be used for farming and general outside work? A. Twenty-five per cent. Q. You saj' you have five acres : suppose you had fifty, or a hundred, or two hundred, could you use a larger percentage, or do you think twenty-five per cent would cover it, even in that case ? A. I can only speak- of my institution, and the class we have there. I think that twenty-five per cent could be safely employed under proper supervision. Q. (By Mr. Eeed.) Could you use short-term men? A. Yes. And if a man comes on a sentence from one to three years, if he behaves himself, shows a disposition to be a man, and does the right thing, I take him out the last three months, and the men esteem it a great privilege. They understand, that, to expect such a favor, a man man must earn it. It seems to me on general principles, that, in every institution where men have long sentences, during the latter portion of their sentences thej' might be employed 69 outside with safety. They understand, that, according to law, an attempt to escape subjects them to another term, and it does not pay for a man who has been in two years and a half, and has but six months to serve, to run away, and take the chance of another three-years' sentence. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) What amount of watching do these men outside require? A. "We have one outside officer, who has general supervision of all who are outside. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) You are familiar with the Sir Walter Crofton system, as conducted in Ireland? A. Yes. Q. In your judgment, would it be a good system for us to adopt? A . So far as the matters of classification and the indeterminate sentence are concerned, I think it would. Q. Would it not be better for the convict, and for public morals, if a person should be sent, for a second offence of drunk- enness, for four months, instead of thirty days? A. There are some cases where a thirty-day sentence is as good as three months. But a shorter term than thirty days would not be 'enough to get a man straight who had been on a week's drunk. Q. Would it not be better to change the law so that no drunk- ard, for a second offence, should have less than four months? A. I would not say that ; but for this class of common drunk- ards who come repeatedly, for first offence, second, and as com- mon drunkards — Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Under different names ? A. No ; the same. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Why are they not sentenced the fourth time as common drunkards, instead of going back as for the first offence ? A. That is for the courts to decide. Q. Where do they come from ? A. From Essex County, and from other counties too, for that matter. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) In Suffolk County the police know the common drunkards, and, when they are brought up, tell the Court just what they are. Don't the officers in the Essex District know the nature of the cases as well as those in Suffolk ? A. The officers in each locality know the regular cases. Q. Suppose the law was changed, so as to make the maximum sentence so much, and leave it in the power of the superintendent to say when the man maj* be discharged ? A. I do not think it would be well. Q. It would be well to punish a man, then, for a second offence, for more than three or four months ? A. For this particular class that I speak of, that are coming repeatedly, I should favor a law making the sentence not less than one 3'ear. Q. Do you know of any case of the kind, where a man's family comes to you, and begs his release for the sake of his services? 70 A. I have had such cases. Q. A good man}'? A. Not a good many. But I do not believe that your suggestion that the matter should be left to the superintendent would be safe to carry into effect. I believe in indeterminate sentences, with proper persons ; either the county commissioners, or a special board, to discharge prisoners when they see fit, with the under- standing, that, if they violate the provisions of their release, they may be retaken. Q. Your labor is carried on bj' contract? A. Yes. Q. Do you know of any other way that would be more bene- ficial ? A. I have no experience with any other way, and I do not know that any other way would be better, so long as the parties who make the contracts, the county commissioners, give me entire supervision of contractors and persons in charge. Q. Do you use any machinery ? A. Only a roller, for the rolling of the inner-soles. Q. Is your prison self-sustaining? A. Not quite. The prison is not, and the whole institution wants about $5,000 a year. The Insane Asylum adjoins the prison. Q. But the prison itself is not self-sustaining? A. No. Q. Is there any way that you could employ those men to make it self-sustaining? A. I do not think there is for the short-sentence men whom we get. The terms are not long enough to skill men in any busi- ness so as to make them self-sustaining. Q. Don't you know that your business is done chiefly by women outside ? And do you know what pay they get ? A. I do not. Q. You do not think that the business which you do affects that class of labor outside? A. I should not think there was enough of it. Q. Do you think, that, if a certain percentage only of prison- ers were employed at any particular branch of labor, it would come less in contact with free labor? A. I have no means of forming an opinion, because 1 do not know how extensive the business is. Q. Any business ? A. I do not think that any business that would be done in prisons like ours would impair any industry outside. In order to find out whether it conflicts at all, you must first find out whether the contractors attempt to put goods upon the market at a less price than others. Q. You get fourteen cents a day for your men? Outside, women, perhaps, can make seventy-five cents or a dollar a day. I do not know whether women can make more goods than your men. A. There are a varietj' of expenses that contractors have in- side that manufacturers outside do not have. 71 Q. You have nothing to pay for the official who has charge of the workshop? A. No : we have only one inside officer, one outside, and the man in the shop, who is paid by the contractor, but is practically selected by me. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) In relation, to these pancakes. You tell us that they make sixty to a hundred a day. Do you mean a pancake that would make a pair of lady's inner-soles? A. Yes. Q. You mean that the men will make, roll, and finish, that number? A. Oh, no ! They only paste them. Then they are put on racks, and sent to the ^ dry-room, where they are dried; and then two men are constantly employed rolling them. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Have you any suggestion to offer for improvement upon the present system? A. I do not know that I have any that I have not stated. It has seemed to me for a long time, and the conviction grows upon me, that the Elmira plan is the one that would do most for the reformation and self-sustaining of the criminal class, — an indeter- minate sentence with supervision after discharge. It seems to me that in that direction, which is practically carrying out the Irish system, we are to expect most reformation, and to make the crimi- nal class self-supporting. It seems to me that the Reformatory Prison at Sherborn, for instance, which is necessarily reformatory only in name, from the class of people who are there, and its crowded condition — if there, instead of a sentence of six months or even a j'ear for drunkenness, those sentences were indetermi- nate, and power given to the prison commissioners to release in their discretion, it would be better than any definite length of sen- tence. Under the law allowing them to bind out women during unexpired terms, when the terms expire, nobodj'' has any power to supervise the women. I would make the supervision perpetual. Q. After her discharge you would keep her under supervision ? A. After a person is discharged, if he feels that he is under supervision, it is a constant restraint on him. Testimony of Charles D. Burt resumed. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) Have you given this matter any thought, — this question of indeterminite sentence ? A. Not particularly in reference to the Elmira prison ; but I have in reference to my own prison. Q. Do you think it would be any better for the reformation of the prisoners than the present system ? A. 1 think it would, for this reason — if it were under the charge of the county commissioners. They have control of the common drunkards now, but not the simple drunk or second oflfence. Q. Don't you think that the system of supervision without the feature of discharge would exercise a restraining infiuence ? A. I think it would. I think there are instances where parties 72 are sent there for first offence, — or second offence at any rate, and it requires nearlj' thirty days to get them straight, — there are instances of that kind, where the county commissioners should have the power to release them ; then, if they violated their pardon, the commissioners ought not to have the power to release them until after the expiration of their sentences. Q. After their sentences have been nominally worked out, don't yon think that supervision would exercise a restraining influence ? A. I think it would. Q. Don't you think that the experiment would be worth trying, even if it cost some money ? A. I think almost any thing would be worth trying to save a man from a drunkard's grave. Q. What per cent of those who come to j-ou would be proper subjects for it? A. I think perhaps twenty-five or thirty per cent of them might be benefited by it. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Could you suggest a system of super- vision when the prisoner has been put out on trial ? A. I do not know that I could. I should not be prepared to do it now. Testimony of Y. G. Htjrd resumed. Witness. I should like to impress upon the committee the fact that it is only the cases of common drunkards that the county commissioners have any influence over. For first and second offences they have no power. It would be an advantage if county commissioners should have power in certain cases. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Would you lodge that power in the county commissioners, or the prison commissioners ? A. I think that in the several counties the county commis- sioners would be quite as familiar with the cases. Oct. 29, 10.30 a.m. TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM O. BROWN. William O. Brown sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What position do you hold in the Heywood Chair Company ? A. I am acting treasurer. Q. Your residence is Fitchburg? A. Yes. Q. Are you also one of the county commissioners of Worces- ter County ? A. Yes. Q. Will you give us a statement, as briefly as possible, with regard to what the Heywood Chair Company do, and whether or not they have contracts in anj' prisons for bottoming chairs ? A. I can state what I know about that ; but the superintend- 73 ent of the company is here, who made the contracts, and he can tell better than I can. I can state that they have contracts for seating chairs with the prisons at Fitchburg and Worcester. Q. How many convicts do they employ at the Worcester prison ? A. It varies from a hundred and thirty or a hundred and forty to two hundred, and perhaps two hundred and ten. Q. Can you tell the price that they pay for these chairs ? A. I could not tell you what that is. The contract I never have seen, and never have been told, except that I have heard it from outside parties. Various prices have been mentioned in the papers, which have been true, I presume, — a portion of them. Mr. Butler explained that to the community, giving prices which I presume are true. The superintendent can tell you exactly ; but I do not know. I cannot tell you what they are. Q. Then you are unable to give the prices, except by hearsay ? A. Yes. Q. Could you tell the prices that are paid outside for the same work? A. I could not do that. That is something that I had had nothing to do with. I could tell pretty nearly, but not exactly. I presume there are seventy-five difierent kinds, and the prices vary from two or three cents to twelve cents. I do not know but I have got the extremes too far apart ; but they vary in that way. Q. Are the prices paid at the Worcester institution the same as at Fitchburg ? A. I think there may be a little difference on account of the freight. I think there is : I have been told that recently. Q. Will you state, if you can, under what circumstances the contract was awarded at the Worcester institution ? A. I can tell you exactly, so far as I am concerned myself. Before the duty of providing labor for the convicts was placed upon the county commissioners, it used to be performed by a prison commission, — overseers as they were called. Two years ago it fell upon the county commissioners to do the same thing. The last year that the overseers had the work to do, they contracted with the company with which I am connected. Knowing that this question of contracting was coming up again, and that the com- pany to which I belonged was to be a bidder, 1 declined to have any thing to do about it. I told my associates that that was a matter I must leave with them. I also told the company that I should leave that to the other county commissioners entirely ; and from that time, until after the contract was made, I knew nothing of it. I did not know what the contract was, how many men, what prices, or any thing about it. I never have seen that con- tract. I took particular pains to keep away from it, and I did so. One of my associates on the board, Mr. Taft, is here, and he did help to make it. He and the other made it, and he can tell you under what circumstances and for what prices. Q. (By Mr. Tatlok.) You are one of the county com- missioners ? A. Yes. Q. Is it the duty of the county commissioners to see what these contracts are ? 74 A. Yes. Q. You say, that, from the time this contract was made or offered, you had nothing to do with it? A. Nothing. Q. As a county commissioner you consider it your duty to look after it, but, being personally interested, you did not ? A. Yes. The law provides, that, wherever any member of the board is personally interested, he shall step aside. That was why I did it. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Then you as county commissioner and you as treasurer of the Heywood Company were two distinct per- sons. You did not mingle the two at all ? A. Whichever capacity I acted in was going to interfere with the other : so I withdrew altogether. Q. Believing that the other commissioners would make the proper contract for the interest of the county ? A. I had not the least doubt of it ; and our superintendent says that they looked well after the interests of the county. Q. Then, so far as your knowledge goes, they had no desire to benefit the Heywood Company in making this contract for the convicts ? A. I do not see why they got any advantage. I do not think they are gentlemen who can be bought and sold. I do not think that there was the least influence to cause them to make it in any way except for the benefit of the county. Q. Do you think that it is for the benefit of the county to pay men two and a half and three cents a day ? A. That is a mistake. They paid that for each chair, and they made five and six a daj'. Q. Then they did a good deal better than they stated to us at the prison. A. I will leave that to other persons to answer. Q. Is this business carried on much in Gardner ? A. Yes : extensively. Q. Do you know any of the men carrying it on there ? A. Almost all of them. Q. Do you know whether this prison-labor has interfered much with their business? A. I do not know why it should. Q. Have you ever heard any complaint from those men in re- gard to the prices paid for contract labor ? A. I did not at the time these contracts were made. Q. Have j'ou since ? A. Quite lately I have heard that they would like to get seat- ing done at the same price. We should. It is a very different thing to get it done now from what it was a year ago. Q. Do you have to pay more now for free labor ? A. We have not. We have not had any difficulty in getting our seating all done. I believe there have been a few instances, within a very few weeks, where there has been a little advance ; ' but, until within a very few weeks, the work has been done outside at the same prices, and we have been overrun with applications. Q. What prices do you pay for outside labor ? 75 A. I am not posted in that matter. The superintendent will tell you. Q. You do think that they make more than three cents a day ? A. Oh, they make more than ten cents a day. That 'is, they will average that. There are men in there that will not earn any thing : but I mean the ordinary men. Q. Do you think there is any conflict between this labor you employ and outside labor? A. No. I do not think it makes any diflTerence at all. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) As county commissioner, what is your opinion with regard to the effect of this contract labor upon the reformation of the prisoners? A. I think it is very good indeed. I think the more indus- trious the prisoners can be kept, the better it is for them. I will state a little circumstance. The year before we had this contract, there was a party who had a contract, and was unable to furnish work enough for the prisoners. The sheriff sent word to our com- pany, soliciting work. He said that he had nothing for them to do, that it was a great deal more trouble to take care of them when they were idle, and he asked the company to send some work, even if nothing were paid for it. That is what the jailer said. My impression is — and I have had some experience the last ten years — that the more industrious the prisoners can be, and the more constant the work, the better for them. The dis- cipline is better, the health of the prisoners is better, and it is all better. Q. As county commissioner, and from your experience, can j'ou say that these convicts when they leave the prison can get work outside at the same business that they learned inside, and make a living by so doing? A. That would be pretty difficult to answer. Three-fourths of all the men who go into prison are not good for any thing outside, scarcely. If you would watch the thing carefully, you would be surprised. They are not going to work ; they are not mechanical men ; they are vagrants and runabouts, and they are the class of men that are not in the habit of doing any thing. You might take boys, and make mechanics of them ; but take the old men, the transients, the foreigners, who constitute a great proportion of the men you find in jails, and it is very hard to make them useful after they go out. Q. If they had a disposition to labor at the trade which they have learned, could they obtain employment? A. Every person that is in all the jails could get all the work that he wants to do now. But they can earn more shovelling. A hod-carrier wiU earn more carrying bricks, and that is the class of men we have. Railroad men, track men, will earn more at their business than at seating chairs. Q. (By Mr. Maesh.) "What could an ordinary able-bodied man, who was disposed to work, earn seating chairs at the prices paid outside ? A. He cannot earn more than a boy twelve or fifteen years old, perhaps not so much. From ten to fifteen cents a day would be as much as he could earn. 76 Q. Then it is no use talking about men seating chairs outside ? A. No. It is done by women and children, cripples, and aged people.. The last two winters, when men had nothing to do, they would seat chairs for twelve cents a day. Q. Do j'ou think that the work you perform inside interferes with the workingmen outside? A. I do not think so ; not in the least. I do not think it affects general business outside at all. Q. Are these institutions at present self-sustaining, or are they a bill of expense to the county ? A. They are a bill of expense. Q. In your opinion, could not the convicts now be employed in some more advantageous way? A. That has been tried in various branches. The overseers let them for making shoes ; but they got out of that. There were not very manj'- of them who could work at that. The parties who cout tracted for them said that they wasted their stock so much, that they failed to get employment in making shoes on that account. Q. In other institutions of the State, convicts, at other kinds of business, of the same class, are earning thirty to fifty cents a day. A. I think not convicts of the same class. In our county of Worcester, while we have a large number of convicts, there is a very large proportion of them who are in for from thirty to sixty days. A man comes in a drunken tramp ; and you can judge as well as I can what that man is going to be worth for sixty days. Just nothing. Q. In New Bedford, where they have the same class of men, they carry on the shoe business, and claim that they are making some money. A. They get a different class, and get longer-term men too. Q. The testimony of the keeper was, that the largest portion of them were thirty-daj- men ; and he complained that he could not do so well with them as if their terms were longer. Do you con- sider, that, in your institution, receiving prisoners for similar offences and from similar courts, you get any different class from those at East Cambridge and New Bedford? A. I think the facts show that we get a large proportion of short-term men. If any gentleman should go into the House of Correction and look the men over, and ascertalnthe length of their sentences, I do not think he would want them on any very exten- sive work of any kind. Q. If it could be made plain to you that the percentage of re- commitments to the various houses of correction was at least sixty per cent, and perhaps more, for drunkenness, which means a short term, then would you not consider, that, if these other houses of correction can earn more money with their men, it would be possi- ble to do that in your House of Correction in Worcester ? A. If we thought it were possible, I think we would try it. I think our earnings stand per man the third in the State. We have made every effort to make the earnings as much as possible, and expenses as small as possible. Q. Has it ever been brought to your attention that the per- centage of convictions to the houses of correction for drunkenness 77 and for the short term was sixty per cent of the number of con- victs sent there ? A. I should think it was. Q. You neyer had it brought directly to your attention ? A. I have read reports, and watched this thing carefully, and I should sa}' that the percentage was as high as sixty. Q. If that is the case in other places, would j-ou consider that your commitments for short sentences would be larger ? A. I find that commitments are different from different courts. Where some will sentence for four months, others will send for one or two. I do not think that the sentences are governed by facts, but by the different views of the courts. Q. Have you ever, as county commissioner, made a point of finding out about what percentage of recommitments to the House of Correction there is for drunkards? A. I have ; but I am unable now to state the result. My judg- ment is, that seventy-five per cent return on account of drunken- ness, directly or indirectly. Q. If the county commissioners of Worcester should find, on investigation, that they have no larger percentage of short-term men than other counties, wouldn't thej' consider it their duty to endeavor to get more than ten or fifteen cents a day for their men, if other institutions with the same grade of men were getting it? A. I think it is the duty of the county commissioners to make the most they can. If they can make the men worth more than ten or fifteen cents a day, they should do it. But, while we stand the third in the State, there is a duty devolving upon others to catch up with us. Q. (B3- Mr. Hill.) Do you mean that you are the third in gross earnings? A. I mean per man, and gross earnings too. Q. What institutions stand first and second? A. I am not able to say ; but I think East Cambridge is one. I am not making these statements positively. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Have you any statistics by which you can give the average term of your convicts, or any thing near it ? A. The jailer makes that out, and sends it to the prison com- missioners. I supposed you would have that. Q. What would be your impression about it? A. We have a good many men for thirty days, and a few for one and two years, — a very few ; but I should not think it would average (this is guess-work) , I should not think the average would be four months. Q. That would be about a hundred and twenty days. The gentleman from New Bedford gave eighty-four days as his average. That would make your average a good deal longer. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) As one of the county commissioners, have you ever considered the expediency of conducting the busi- ness of your institution on the public-account system ? A. Yes, we have. We have thought of that, and it has been tried to a limited extent. A few of the convicts have been em- ployed on shoe-work. We have bought the material, and then the work has been made and disposed of. But it has been thought by 78 the jailer and the county commissioners that it was not advisable. "We did not feel safe in doing it. There is a fluctuation in the markets, and then the price of prison-work is always less than for other work, because it has not good credit. We have been through with this very carefully, have exercised our best judgment, and done what we supposed to be for the best interest of the county. We may have failed in it. Q. You do not deem it expedient, as one of the county commis- sioners, to conduct your business on the public-account system? A. We have not. From the information, knowledge, and experience we have had, we have not thought it advisable. It may be different ; but we have endeavored to go through this care- fully in all its bearings, and we have felt that the work which they were doing was as good as we could provide under the circum- stances — these short-term men. If we employed a hundred men on shoes, it might cost about double what they would earn to clothe them. Then, again, it makes a very bad stench in a large shop where there are a hundred men. You have to keep them pretty close, and the large amount of material which you are obliged to have around makes a very bad odor. That was one great fault that was found with the shoe business. Then, again, you would have to have more overseers, which would be quite an item of expense ; and the better the work, and the more varieties there are, the more overseers j'ou must have. Q. Taking all these things into consideration, you deem that the contract S3'stem is the best for the interest of the county, and for the promotion of the reformation of the convicts ? A. It has been so considered. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) How long have there been contracts between your company and the county ? A. I think we have had it three or four years. We had it one year, and then the work was advertised, and some other party got it. The next j'ear it was advertised, and there was no bid at all. That was while it was in the hands of the overseers. They adver- tised for four or six weeks, and they travelled, so one of them told me, and I knew about it at the time. They went to Boston and Gardner and other places, and did not get a bid. Then a contract was made between the overseers and our company. Q. When was that ? A. I think three years ago last May. Q. For how long was that contract made ? A. For one year. Q. Then, when that expired, the business of making a contract was put into the hands of the county commissioners ? A. Yes. Q. And then the county commissioners renewed that contract? A. Yes. Q. On the same terms ? A. Yes. Q. For how long a time ? A. One year. Q. Has that run out again? A. Yes. 79 Q. And been renewed again ? A. Yes, with a little variation. Q. "When does the present contract run out again ? A. I think the first of February at Fitchburg, and the first of May at Worcester. Q. If you should find, as county commissioners, next spring, looking it all over, that you could employ your people to better advantage in something else, I take it that you would change their employment? A. I certainly would. Our object is to get the most money out of it for the county, but at the same time there is a little dif- ference in work. You would not want to subject the prisoners to improper work, even if they could make a little money at it. You would not want, perhaps, to set them hammering stone. Q. No ; only occupations that are carried on in other institu- tions. A. I do not think it would make any difierence, if we could make the most money out of it, and treat the prisoners well. Q. (By Mr. Maksh.) In your knowledge of prisoners, don't you think, all other things being equal, it would be better to keep outside contractors away altogether, keep the whole matter within the control of the prison officers, which would be the case if you worked on county account? A. No : I do not think that. Q. Is it not an element of weakness to have outsiders there ? A. That is not allowed. Our superintendent is allowed to go there. Perhaps he has been there twice a year ; but he has ho more authority there than any man outside. If there is to be any thing said or done, it is to be said or done by the sheriflf. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Have you any instructor? A. Yes. Q. Is he the only outside man or overseer ? A. They ha^■e two overseers hired by the county, who have been selected by the sherifi". Q. They are county officers? A. Yes. The contractors have nothing to do in there. Q. The superintendent, then, is the only outsider who goes in to do any thing with the work ? A. He cannot go in, unless they allow him. Q. But they do allow him ? A. Yes. I presume he may have gone in two or three times in a year ; but he does not go for the purpose of interfering. Q. Who sets the amount of work? A. The overseers. Q. The contractors have nothing to do with nominating these men? A. Not at all. I do not suppose he knows who they are. Though I have a right to go there, I would no more think of inter- fering with those overseers than I would in Middlesex County. Q. (By Mr. Tatlok.) The overseers are officers? A. Yes. They have entire charge of the men and the shop, take them from their cells to dinner and supper, and take them back. They would have to employ about the same number of 80 oflScers if the men did ' not do any thing. If any more diflScult business were introduced, you would have to have more overseers. ^ Q. What did you mean when you said that yours was the third institution in the State in paying ? — did you mean receipts and expenses? What do you ground your information upon? A. Upon what I have been told. I have not looked that up. I saw a statement of that fact only a few days ago, and its cor- rectness can be very easily ascertained. Q. Does it cost you any more to feed your men there than in any other prison? A. I think not. Q. As much? A. I do not know. Q. How are the supplies obtained ? Do you contract for them ? A. Yes. Q. Do you leave full power with the jailers ? A. Yes. It is part of the duty of the commissioners ; but it is so continuous, that when we have confidence in the jailers, as we have, we let them purchase, and we look the bills over carefully every month, and compare them. Q. The jailer has full power? A. Substantially he has, under the supervision of the county commissioners. TESTIMONY OF G. H. SPENCER. G. H. Spencer sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) You are holding what position ? A. Superintendent of the Walter Hey wood Chair Company. Q. Has that company any contracts for convict-labor in any of the institutions in Worcester County ? A. It has. Q. With what institutions has it contracted? A. The Fitchburg and Worcester houses of correction. Q. Have j'ou the contracts with you ? A. 1 have. Q. When did you enter into these contracts ? A. Do you mean these present ones ? Q. Yes. A. About the last day of January last. Q. And they are to run for how long ? A. One year. One year from Feb. 1 in Fitchburg, and, in Worcester, one j-ear from May 1 . Q. Have you had contracts with these institutions before this present contract? A. Yes. Q. How far back have they reached ? A. We had a contract from 1873 to 1876. From 1876 to 1877 some one else contracted, and we have had them since. Q. How many men have you contracted for ? A. I am unable to tell you that. Our contract is so much apiece for bottoming chairs whatever men can be employed out- side of the prison duties. 81 Q. What is the contract price that you pay for bottoming these chairs of various qualities? A. The contracts will tell that. The prices range from two to ten cents in one of them ; and the other is the same, with the ex- ception that whatever the freight costs between Fitchburg and Worcester is taken out. Q. That is, you deliver the material to the prison, and then you take it from the prison to j'our factory, at your own expense ? A. We do. Q. The prices paid to the county commissioners for bottoming these chairs are as represented in the contract ? A. Yes. Q. Do you have outside employees ? A. Yes. More than inside. Q. What do you paj' the outside employees for the same work? A. The same prices ; no more, and no less. Q. What number of chairs do j'ou have bottomed in these in- stitutions during the year? A. A hundred and fifty thousand, or thereabouts ; five hundred a day. Q. What is the extent of this work outside of the prisons? Have you any knowledge upon that point? A. It is two or three times as much ; that is, to speak in round numbers. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Did you speak of your own business being two or three times as much ? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Will you tell the Committee if you can, what amount of work there is done outside in the State ? A. Of that class ? Q. Yes. A. I cannot tell. Q. Could you tell what effect the work done in the prisons has upon the work outside ? A. It has no effect whatever. It has no effect upon any per- sons whom we employ, or wish for employment. We have been ready, and are ready, to give work at cane-seating to anybody who comes to our factory. Nobody goes away without it who wants it. Q. So that, if you did not employ the convicts, you could get the work done outside, and at the same prices that you pay inside ? A. Yes. Q. So that virtually the work which you give inside does not interfere with free labor outside ? A. It does not, and never has done it, except in 1876 and 1877, when we made a bid so low that we did not get it in these institu- tions, for the reason that, owing to the extreme dulness of the times, there was an extraordinary demand for that kind of work ; and, rather than deprive the people of it, we made a bid so low, that, if our offer had been accepted, we could afford to make up goods, and hold them for a sale. That is the only time I have an^' recollection of. 82 Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Did you get the contract at that time? A. No. Somebody overbid us. I said that there was no year that I knew of when prison-work interfered with labor outside, and I cannot say positively whether it would or not at that time ; but I thought I would get on the safe side,. and give it to the people outside, instead of to the prison. Since then, business has been improving. Q. (By Mr. Moese.) The object you expected to accomplish you did not accomplish? A. No. Q. Then, in consequence of your not getting the contract, the work inside did not conflict with the work outside ? A. No. Q. In your manufactory at Fitchburg, after receiving these bottoms, j'ou make the complete chair ? A. Yes. Q. Where are the goods disposed of ? A. Everywhere. Perhaps fifty per cent of them go out of the county. Q. Those manufacturers who do not have prison-contracts have let out the bottoms precisely as you do to outside parties, and then they complete them into chairs, and sell in the same market ? A. Yes. Q. Do your goods interfere with the sale of those made by outsiders ? A. There is no reason why they should. They get the same prices we do, I suppose. If ours happen to be a little better, it gives us the preference, or a little better prices. Q. Is there any distinction between the quality of the goods made inside and outside? A. They are about the same. Q. So that, when the chairs are made up, you calculate that the prison chairs are as good as those made outside ? A. We make no difference. Q. So far as your knowledge goes, you get the same for the chairs that outside manufacturers get ? A. Yes. Q. Therefore, in your judgment, the production of the labor inside does not interfere with the production of free labor outside? A. I feel very positive about it, that it does noti You asked a question, if I thought that our getting prison-labor affected the prices of goods outside. Did I understand you to ask that question? Q, The point that I desired to get at was Whether there was any distinction between your sales of goods made by prison-labor and those made outside ? A. No : there is no difference. Q. Will you give the Committee the information which they have been endeavoring to get from the other gentleman, as to how this contract was obtained from the county commissioners ? A. You mean the present one ? Q. Yes. Whether you made a proposition to the county com- 83 missioners direct, and they accepted it without any knowledge on the part of Mr. Brown as county commissioner? A. Mr. Brown, so far as I am able to state, had nothing to do with making the contracts, either on the part of the county com- missioners or the chair company. It has been part of my busi- ness to attend to those contracts, and get the work done, and I attended to them at that time. Q. So that there was no influence brought to bear by Mr. Brown, as the treasurer of the Heywood Chair Company, with the county commissioners, to obtain this contract for the company? A. I am unable to tell you how much he influenced the other two commissioners. Some two years ago, when the county com- missioners assumed the duty of the overseers, I told him that we proposed to contract with the prisons, provided we could get the work at the prices that we were paying outside ; that I wished him to_ stand entirely aloof from the transaction, so that, in case any thing should come up hereafter, it could not be said that he had any hand in it whatever. To my knowledge, I do not know of his having any thing to do with the contract from 1878 to the present time. Before that, the commissioners had nothing to do with it. Q- (By Mr. Hill.) Previous to that, did he have any thing to do with negotiating contracts with the prison overseers ? A. Not that I am aware of. Q- (By Mr. Morse.) Prior to 1877, you contracted with the prison overseers ? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) And that was done by you, and not by him? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Mouse.) So that all the connection he could have had with it has been within the last two years ? A. Yes. The continuance of these contracts has been part of my duty as superintendent. Q. The last contracts were obtained precisely as you obtained them prior to the county commissioners having any thing to do with them ? A. I have done it in the same way at the present time as I used to do it. Q. (By Mr. Tayxor.) How much, do your men earn outside? A. In this business ? Q. Yes. A. I do not know of men outside being employed, except, per- haps, in families, where they may take hold and help at it. I have khoWn of families earning six dollars a week. Q. This work is not done by men outside? A. It is done by the emploj^ment of women and children and whoever has a mind to take hold of the work, and carry it around. Q. How many were there in the family, working at the busi- ness, that made six dollars a week? A. I cannot tell. Q. Do you know what a person would average at your business outside ? A. A person can take a seat that would cost five cents, and do 84 five or six in a day very comfortably, if he devoted all his time to it. But they do not do that. Q. How much do they do, on an average ? A. You are asking me questions I cannot answer. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Do you mean five or six for a man, a woman, or a child? A. I have seen smart boj's and women do it. Q. (By Mr. Tayloh.) A smart boy can do a good deal ; but the average person ? A. I never sat down to figure it up. Q. Suppose there were fifty men working, would you not con- sider that what thirty or thirty-five of them do would be the average ? ' A. I should say the earning outside was from twelve to twenty cents a day; and they would not work more than eight hours, — the same as in the jail. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Who sets the task of the convicts ? A. I suppose the prison authorities do it. • We have nothing whatever to do with it. Q. And 3'ou have no instructors inside of the prison ? A. No. Q. You simply deliver the cane and the bottoms to the institu- tion, and receive them completed as chair- bottoms ? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Your company has no voice at all in the selection of these men who superintend the work inside ? A. None at all. Q. (By Mr, Marsh.) How long has it been customary to make this work in the prisons, to your knowledge? A. I have been in the business twenty-one or twenty-two years, and it has been as long as that. That is, I have heard of it being done. Q. As long ago as that, was the price outside as cheap as it is to-day? The point I wish to make is, whether bringing so much of this work into the prisons has not reduced the prices outside. A. I should say not. There is too small a proportion done in the prisons to have any effect. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) You do not think it affects it? A. I do not think so. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Have you ever heard complaint, during your experience in this business, of its injuring free labor out- side? A. I have heard such complaints made lately by Mr. Butler and others, and that is all the complaint I have heard. None to my personal knowledge. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Is there as much of this work done in ihe families in your part of the State as formerly ? A. Yes : I should say five times as much. Q. Do families that wish to get it have the same opportunity to get it as formerly? A. Yes. ■ 85 TESTIMONY OF HENRY G. TAFT. Heney G. Taft sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Are you one of the county commis- sioners of Worcester County ? A. Yes. ^ Q. You, with the other commissioners, have the oversight of the Fitchburg and Worcester jails and houses of correction ? A. Yes. Q. You take in chair-bottoms to be seated bj' your convicts ? A. Mr. Brown, our chairman, declined serving, as he was connected with the chair company ; and I, with my other associate, took charge of the contracts for two years. The duties of the overseers devolved upon the county commissioners July 1, 1877. There were unexpired contracts, running until February in Fitch- burg, and May in Worcester. Since then, we have renewed the contracts twice, with slight variations. Q. Who have? A. Mr. Rice, my other associate, and myself. Q. Mr. Brown had no knowledge of the contracts that you and your associate made with the Hey wood Chair Company ? A. No. He declined acting in the matter at all. Q. The contracts bj' the county commissioners have been made with the Heywood Company precisely as they were made prior to that with the overseers ? A. The first one was ; but the last one was not. By the con- tract with the overseers, we had to do the teaming ; but, by the new contract, it was provided that the company should deliver the goods at the jail in both places, and take them away. Q. »So there is no expense now for deliverj'? A. The contract is the same in the two places, except about half a cent per chair in favor of Fitchburg, because the company has the freight to pay from Fitchburg to Worcester and back. Q. Are you familiar with the prices paid for bottoming outside ? A. Only as I could gather from asking different parties. Q. In making this contract with the company, you, as count}' commissioners, feel that you have obtained a fair price for the work performed by the prisoners ? A. I do ; up to within a few weeks. There seems to be an improvement in all kinds of business and from now to the expira- tion of the contracts, we might do better. But we did not want to make the contract for less than a year. There seemed to be no improvement in business at the time the last contract was made. 1 told my associate that we'd better not make it for more than a, year, because business might be better, and could not be any worse; than it was then. The Fitchburg contract expires in February, and the Worcester one the first of May. Q. The contracts that you have made, have been based upon your knowledge as to what persons obtained for bottoining chairs outside, and you have endeavored to get as near outside prices as possible ? A. Partly upon that, and partly upon the fact that the over- seers the previous year advertised, at quite considerable expense, for some time, and, being unable to procure a bid, were finally obliged to renew the contract with the Heywood Chair Company. They came to the commissioners at one time, and asked what they should do. The help were without employment in the prisons for some little time, and I advised them to set them at work. Mr. Daniels, one of the overseers, came to me, and said that they could have work from the Heywood Chair Company, but that the company was unwilling to pay for it until a contract was made. But I understand that the companj^ did pay for the work afterwards. As there was no improvement in business, and the overseers had advertised and been unable to procure a bid, I thought it was advisable to renew the contract without advertising, both years. Q. And you did so? A. Yes. Q. How many chair-manufacturing establishments are there in Massachusetts, so far as you know, besides the Heywood Com- pany? A. I do not know of very many, though I presume there are many small ones. There is one at Gardner, I should think as large as the Heywood : I think they are the largest in the State. Q. Did you ever seek information with regard to the prices which they paid for bottoming chairs ? A. I don't think I ever did directly from those parties. Q. And you made the contract from your general knowledge of the prices paid outside for bottoming chairs ? A. Yes, and the fact, as I have stated, that, previous to that, they had been unable to procure bids from other parties. And there were some other things which influenced me in making con- tracts for bottoming chairs, though not necessarily with that com- pany. It seems to me that it is one of the best kinds of business that can be carried on in an institution of that kind. It requires few overseers ; it is very clean, and is not a noisy business. Q. What portion of the implements that are used are supplied by the county commissioners ? A. Every thing. Q. The company supply nothing except the materials to be worked ? A. They supply the bottoms and the cane. ' Q. Are you required to have any more overseers or instructors on account of the work which you perform for the company than, if you did not do any thing ? A. I think we should have to have as many if we did not do p,ny thing, unless the men were kept confined in cells all the time ; and I suppose no one would advocate that. In fact, when they were not employed, at the time I speak of, they marched them into the shop daily, and allowed them to stand at their stands that they work chairs on as the most convenient waj- to take care of them. Q. Do you consider that work has a reformatory influence ? A. I consider any kind of work better than remaining idle. Q. What effect does this labor have upon the moral reforma- tion of the convicts, if any? 87 A. I do not know that it would have very much effect. I do think it would be as good as any kind of labor, and vastly better than no labor. Q. Is there any effort made bj' your commissioners, aside from obtaining work for the prisoners, for their moral reformation ? A. We have Sunday services, a choir, and library books. We generally act under the advice of the prison commission, and they give advice pretty freely about those things. Q. (B3' Mr. Taylor.) Do you know of any other prisons in the State where this chair-seating is contracted for, besides Fitch- burg and Worcester? A. I am not aware of ^'o.j. There may be others. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) From your information and knowledge, do j'ou know whether this labor in your prison conflicts with labor outside, or not? A. I can judge only as far as I hear from other parties, — that they are willing to furnish work at any time to people outside, and paj' the same prices. Q. So far as your information goes, it does not? A. It does not. I know that this kind of work is done very much bj' women and children, and not by able-bodied men. Q. Does it have any tendency to take from them work which they would naturallj' have ? A. I should think not as long as the supply of work is abun- dant for all outside and inside too. At the time the contracts were made, we never received any information that we could get any higher price. One gentleman wanted to know if he could have a contract at the same price, some of the men to work on shoes, and others at whatever he could get for them to do. TESTIMONY OF MARTIN WESSON. Martin Wesson sworn, Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Where is your place of residence? A. My residence now is Bo||^on. Q. Have you a contract for convict4abor in the Bridgewater Workhouse ? A. I have. Q. Will you state to the Committee the terms of your contract? A. It was made on the first of January last, for six months, at the rate of five hundred dollars a year for all the men in the institution not otherwise employed on the farm, about the prem- ises, or at whatever they had to be done ; with the privilege, on my part, of renewing it for a term of five years at a thousand dollars a year. Q. Did the contract specify a certain number of men ? A. No. At the time I made the contract there were a hundred and fifty or more men, and it was based on the supposition that it would average a hundred and fifty or more. It was provided , when I made the contract with Mr. Crane, and it was agreed between us, that a clause should be put in, saying, that, if the number should be materially reduced, the price should be reduced in proportion. When it went before the full board, they did not quite like that : so they erased that, and said, that, if the number were reduced below a hundred, the price should be reduced pro- portionately. I had a hundred and fifty at that time, and expected to continue to have that number. Q. If you do not have the hundred men, j'ou make a certain reduction in your payment? 4. Yes. Q. If you have more than a hundred, you increase the price? A. Nq ; because the contract is based on the supposition that I should have a hundred and fifty men. The naming of a hundred men was to name a point below which, if the number went, the price should be reduced. Q. If you should have an average of over a hundred and fifty men, would there be any increase in the price ? A. No. Q. Will you tell how many of those chairs each man can bottom in a day ? A. Some will bottom half a chair, and some ten. Q. What will be the average ? A. 1 prepared for you a statement of what we had done to the first of July. The average number of prisoners employed during the four weeks ending July 12 was seventy. The average number of chairs seated by each prisoner per day was three and one-seventh. Q. Will you state to the Committee, if you know, what a person outside would bottom, — what thej' would average? A. I do not know. I could not tell any thing about it. I know that men when they have an interest in the work will do more than when they are in prison — perhaps double. Q. Who sets the task of the prisoners ? A. There is no task set. It would be impossible to do it, because there is such a variety in the capacities of inen. Q. What number of hours are they required to work? A. They are working now about nine hours a day. The superintendent fixes the time : we have nothing to do with that. Q. Are you the instructor of*the convicts? or have you an agent ? A. I have a man there to instruct them. Q. What are his duties ? A- His duty is to act as an oflicer. He is an officer in the institution. He is a man I select to employ and pay, subject to the approval of the superintendent, and he is on duty out of work- ing hours. Q, If the convicts Go not perform the task required by this overseer or teacher, what is done ? A. It amounts to very little. That is one great drawback to that institution : there is no system of punishment that the men are afraid of. If a man is contrary and ugly, and won't do his work well or at all, he is reported to the State officer in the room, who punishes him ; that is, he takes him, and locks him up. Q. Then I understand that the superintendent has one ofHcer in the room, and you another? A. Yes. Q. One officer under your employment and direction ? A. Yes, but approved by the superintendent. He is his officer out of hours. Q. As a matter of fact, have there been any convicts who re- fused to do the work assigned them ? A. There have been those who have been a little contrary and stubborn about doing their work, or wasteful of their cane. Some- thing of that kind occurs very often. Then they are taken away from their work, and remain in solitary two or three days, — not in a dark, cold, stone cell, but in a very pleasant place. It is not a punishment that they care any thing "about. Q. And, when they desire to return to work, they are permitted to do so? A. I understand that that is the regulation ; that, when they express a willingness to do well, they are allowed to go back. They are deprived of some little privileges, — their tobacco, for instance. Q. Who supplies the tobacco, — the contractor, or the master? A. I furnish the tobacco. It is distributed by my overseer, and I do it as an inducement to them to do well. A man who has behaved well through the week, has wasted little or no cane, — for that is an important item in the cost, — and has seated a cer- tain number of chairs, is entitled to a piece of tobacco (they all know how large) : a man who has conformed to the conditions, and done more work, is allowed a larger piece. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) A man who has not done well does not get any tobacco? A. No. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) When the tobacco is withheld, do they rebel against working ? A. Not often on that account. They know it is withheld for the reason that they have not done well. Q. Do you find, then, that it is an incentive to work? and do you also desire it to be an incentive to good conduct ? A. Yes : that is one of the conditions. Q. Then it is not merely for the purpose of gaining an exces- sive amount of work ? A. No : because the amount of work depends upon good con- duct about as much as any thing : without it, we could not get much work. Mj' object is partly the amount of work ; but the amount of work depends on their good behavior. Q. What has been the average number of prisoners that you have had under your contract up to the present time, per day or month ? A. 1 do not know what the average has been. I should think it would not vary much from seventy. When I went there, there were a hundred and fifty men. I did not get them all at work. They were raw hands pretty much, and had to learn the business. At first it was slow work. After I got them all at work, they began to scatter out. There was a time, perhaps in May or June, when 90 we had but forty-ftjur men. That was the lowest point we reached. We have been gaining since slowly ; and now — I think yesterday there were ninety-one. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) In winter you get more ? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What was the largest number you ever had in the shop ? A. Perhaps a hundred and ten. I might have put them all at work, if I could ; that is, they were waiting for me in idleness. Q. In fitting up j-our shop, was it done at j'our own expense ? A. Yes. Q. They supply the shop ? A. Yes, the bare walls. Q. And you supply the necessary fixtures for this business ? : A. Yes. Q. Could you say, from your knowledge of this matter, whether it has an injurious effect upon outside labor ? A., From my own knowledge, and from hearsa}', I should say that it would not affect it. My opinion, from what I hear, is, that the amount done in prisons is so small, that it would not affect any thing, — perhaps one-tenth in Massachusetts. Q. You think the work done inside is equal to about one-tenth of what is done outside ? A. That is what I hear. I do not know much about it. I did not take this prison for chair-making ; but I expected to do some- thing else more profitable. Q. For whom do j-ou seat these chairs ? A. Now for E. Derby & Co. of Gardner. Q. What is your contract with them ? A. My contract with them is all I want to do, at certain prices, varying from four to six cents. They deliver the material at the railroad station, and I do the teaming. Q. Where do you deliver the goods afterwards ? A. At the station. Q. Could not the superintendent of that institution obtain the work of this company, without having it pass through j-our hands, if he should desire ? A. He could. There is no difficulty about that. He could get it as well as I. Q. Your object in obtaining these chairs to bottom, and con- tracting for the prisoners, is to make the profit yourself as a middle-man ? A. As I said before, I did not take the contract for the purpose of making any thing on chairs. I knew there was nothing to be made on them. I took the contract for other business,, and took that large number of men, thinking that I could get enough out of chairs to pay the cost, and then, for the other business, select the best men. Q. What other kind of business ? A. The manufacture of cheap kinds of shoes. Q. But you have not entered into that? A. 1 have not yet. I intend to, however, when I get around to it. . . , 91 Q. What is the length of your contract? A. Five years from the first of July. Q. Is there any provision by which the inspectors can annul it? A. No, there is none. I told them I would not touch it unless I knew I could have it for five years. I expected to lose money the first year, and I would not take a short contract, because, if I got a business that was paying me something, I wanted to know that I could have it a little while, and make something. They hesitated about letting me have it for so long a time, but finally consented, for the men were idle, and, could get no work. They had worked for themselves, on the State's account, and lost money, — at least failed to make money. Q. Have you ever had contracts with any other institution ? A. Yes. Q. What institution? A. The House of Correction in Springfield. Q. In what business ? A. The shoe business. Q. Were you successful? A. Very successful, for fifteen years. Q. Did you have a contract for prison-labor as long as that? A. Yes. Q. What caused you to surrender the contract which you had ? A. I was overbid. Q. Others gave more for the labor of the convicts than you could aflTord? A. Not more than I could aflTord to, but more than I bid. I could afibrd to give as much as anybody ; but I lost it. Q. And, having lost it, j-ou entered into this contract ? A. Having lost it, I was out of business, except real-estate operations, for thirteen years. I was in real estate pretty exten- sively ; but it went back on me. Finding I had got to do some- thing, I began to cast about for a contract, so that I could get back at my old trade, and make some money again, if I could. I was the man, I suppose, that Butler referred to as oflfering eleven cents in Worcester. I did not make any ofler. I simply intimated that I would give them what they had been earning. I thought that if I could get chairs to just clear me, and then take the number of men I wanted for shoes, I could make something from my shoes. I made them no other oflTer. Q. From your experience as a contractor, wliat efl'ect, if any, does this business which you conduct at the workhouse have upon the moral reformation of the convict? A. If any, it is decidedly good. The class of men who go to those places — especiallj' where we are— are vagrants, who have never been in the habit of working. It comes hard to them ; but they learn it. . They are compelled to work, and they form habits of industry, though it maj' not amount to much when they go out. I have been through the room, and asked them questions as to what they had ever done. My object was to see if there were any shoe- makers among them. Most of them said that they had " bummed around." The great majority of them never did any work of any consequence. Thej- are tramps, vagrants, idlers, and never did 92 much of any work. This teaches them to work, and when they go out they can work. If they can't do chair-seating, they can do something else. Q. It has a reforming tendency ? A. I should say so. Q. (By Mr. Tatlor.) Have you ever had any contracts out- side of prison-labor in your business ? A. 1 made lots of contracts with different parties. Q. What I wanted to get at is this, about what per cent more do you make on prison-labor than upon outside labor? A. Not any more, if the work is done haphazard. By good management, and adapting the work to the capacity of prison- labor, a little may be made. Q. Allowing that you contract for a certain number of men for a thousand dollars a year, what per cent more can you make than if you were to employ the same number of laborers outside ? Can you make ten per cent? A. Well, I don't know about that. Q. Can you make eight per cent ? A. I could not tell. I have never employed large numbers of men outside. A prison contractor cannot do all the business, and outside manufacturers can sell as cheap as he can. Q. Doesn't it seem singular that an outside manufacturer who has to pay a dollar and a half a day for his men can compete with a contractor who hires a hundred and fifty men for a thousand dol- lars a year ? A. They can do it. Q. Does it look feasible? What I wanted was to find the difierence in the amount of money made. A. As a general thing, nothing more. Q. Then it is pure philanthropy ? A. Not at all. Q. It is not as a matter of business ? A. Yes. I go in to make money. But I say, that, as a general thing, there is nothing made from prison-contracts more than from outside work. More fail at it than succeed. You have had the New-Bedford people here testifying. What they may be doing just now I do not know ; but some of the board wanted to let their men to me, and said thej' were losing money manufacturing shoes last year. Q. That is not their statement here. A. Well, there is an improvement in business. For several years past they have been losing money : so they told me. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) You say that your men average three chairs and a seventh per day ? A. Yes. Q. You get from four to six cents apiece. Suppose we take an average of five cents ; that makes fifteen cents a day, not count- ing the seventh. You get a hundred men for a thousand dol- lars a year ; that is, ten dollars a year per man. In seventy days thej- have earned that, and the rest is profit? A. At the time that I made this contract I was getting three cents a seat. I was paying for freight two cents and a half, leaving me half a cent a seat. 93 Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) But now you have got on a good work- ing basis, and we are figuring what your chances are. We do not care how much money you can make ; but we are looking to see if somebody could not have done it to better advantage. If you make three chairs a day, at five cents, that is fifteen cents a day for each man, and they cost you only a thousand dollars a year. A. It will not average five cents. Nine-tenths of all I do are three cents : in fact the contract provides, that, as far as possible, the manufacturer shall send me that kind. Q. That would be nine cents a man per day, and in a hundred and eleven days they would earn ten dollars. A. Well ; but when they were making three chairs and a seventh a day, they were doing a cheaper kind of chair than now. They were doing a chair I got three cents for nominally, — that is, half a cent. They cannot do that many now. That was a smaller, cheaper seat. Thej^ are earning now — I know every night what they have done — from six to nine cents a day for the whole ; but I have to deduct from that. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) From six to nine cents a day ? A. Yes. Q. With ninety men employed at three chairs and a seventh apiece ? A. I say they cannot do that many now. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Well, suppose we call it seven cents. In three hundred days that would be twenty-one dollars per man, which, as they only cost you ten dollars a man, would leave you eleven dollars per man for profit and expenses. A. If j'ou want to know what I am making, or what the State might make, you want to know the expenses. I have a statement up to the first of July, since which time I have done somewhat better, so that you can judge how much the State has lost. Whole number of chairs seated by prisoners employed by M. Wesson, at the State Workhouse, Bridgewater, from Jan. 1 to July 1, 1879 16,573 Amount received for same $680 62 Cash paid for freight and cartage $221 15 railroad-fares, about 50 00 to overseers and instructors .... 254 00 for prison-labor 196 00 rope, tobacco, tallow, oil, &c., about . 75 00 796 15 $115 53 Cash paid for fixtures, tools, &c., about . . . $400 00 improvements in shop .... 125 00 My own time (six months), at $50 per month . . 300 00 My son's time (three months), at $50 per month . . 150 00 975 00 $1,090 53 Average number of prisoners employed during four weeks end- ing July 12 70 Average number of chairs seated by each prisoner per day . . 3 J That makes a loss of $1,090.53 at the end of six months, though I have the fixtures. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Encouraging to make a contract for five years. 94 A. I am satisfied with it. It is about what I expected. Now I am doing better. I expect to make more and more everj' month, with expenses less, and income more. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) You stated that you thought that Mr. Leonard could just as well make this contract with the chair com- pany as yourself ? A. Yes. Q. Do you know any reason why Mr. Leonard, or any other superintendent, could not take that business and carry it on with- out any outside interference ? A. No ; only that they have enough to do aside from that. Q. Well ; but they could employ a man who had brains enough to oversee it? A. It would cost them more than they could make ? Q. Couldn't they (not for fifty dollars a month, but for per- haps a hundred dollars) hire a man to look after it? A. I do not think he would be interested enough in it, and they would lose money. Twenty-eight years ago I began to know something about prisons. I took my first contract in 1851, and have watched prisons considerably since, and have noticed, that, wherever the work has been run bj' the authorities, it has generally been at a loss. Q. The cane is furnished by the chair company ? A. Yes. Q. You were speaking about the convicts wasting cane : is that any consideration of yours? A. It is. If I do not do a certain amount of work out of a certain quantity of cane, I have tp pay for it. Q. The cane is portioned out to you ? A. Yes. So many chairs have to come out of so many bunches of cane, and if I fall short I have to pay — as I have done in some cases. Q. Would there be any difficulty for Mr. Leonard to take eon- tracts like this, and set a competent man to work to oversee it? A. None : if he could get a man who would interest himself, and look out sharp. TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH D. O'NEIL. Joseph D. O'Neil sworn. Q. Have you a contract for prisoners to manufacture slippers at the South Boston House of Correction ? A. Yes. Q. Will you give us the nature of your contract with that institution ? A. The gentleman who had the place before failed. I was foreman for him. And the chairman of the committee on contracts came and said he wished I would take hold, seeing I had been with the other man so long. I did so. I never really had any contract for any length ~ of time. That was three years ago. I paid the same price he had been paying before. 95 Q. What do you pay ? A. Fifty cents a day. Q. How many do you employ ? A. Thirty-five to forty. Thirty-five at present. Q. How many hours do your convicts work ? A. About nine now, and during the year. Q. Who sets the task of the convicts ? A. I do ; that is, the amount of work they shall do. Q. Are you the instructor of the convicts? and do you have charge of them during the hours of labor ? A. Until within a year I have been. A year ago I got a young man to assist me. I am there most of the time myself. Q. Have you the entire control of the convicts during the hours of labor? A. As far as their labor is concerned, I have. Q. If they do not perform the task assigned by you, what do you do with them ? A. I am supposed to make a report to the oflicers in charge, who take care of them. Q. As a fact, do the convicts perform the duty assigned them during the day ? A. They do very well. Q. Do many of them refuse to perform the task assigned them ? A. With me, I cannot say that they do. I get along very well with them. Q. Do they perform the work which is assigned them with apparent good will ? A. I think they do, most of them. Q. What perquisites, if any, do you give to induce them to work? A. I give them tobacco ; and when they go out, if they have done well, I give them a little money. Q. What is the condition upon which you give tobacco ? A. They all get tobacco. Q. Do you give it to them as an inducement to work? A. That is what I give it for. Q. Does it have the effect of stimulating them to do an addi- tional amount of work ? A. I think it does. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Don't they get tobacco, anyway? A. Not in my department : they do down stairs, where they make overalls. Q. Then you give it only to those who do well ? A. I give it to all. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Suppose they did not perform the task assigned, would you withhold the tobacco? A. That would be optional with me. I generally give it to them. Q. Without regard to whether they perform the task or not ? A. I think it has the effect of making them do their work better, and I give it to them. In fact, I do not have any trouble with them. Q. Do the convicts perform the task assigned them within the nine hours, or does it take them the full time? 96 A. They sometimes have two or three hours to spare. Some of them take all the time, and perform the task. Q. When they have performed the task, they are not ' required to do aiiy thing more ? A. No. Q. What is the product of one of the convicts as compared with a man working outside ? A. I should say two-thirds. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) No more than that? A. I should think not, on an average ; though some of them will do full as well. Q. Do you employ free labor outside of the prison? A. I do not. Q. What wages do persons outside of the prison get in the same' line of work? A. It has been only lately that thej' made more than six to nine dollars a week outside. They might make more, if they had enough to do ; but they would not get it. Q. Does the work which you perform inside interfere with the work of free laborers outside ? A. I think not, I do so little. Q. What is the cost of the manufactured article inside as com- pared with its cost outside ? A. You cannot get so much for goods manufactured inside as outside, as a general thing. Q. Are the articles manufactured in prison as good as those made outside ? A. I think not, in the quality of the work. Q. And, for that reason, would you have to sell your manu- factured articles inside for less than you would if they were man- ufactured outside ? A. As a general thing, I do. Q. What, then, is the inducement for employing convict labor ? A. Well, I have been there seven or eight years. I don't know but if I was outside I would be as well satisfied : it is only that I am located there. Q. Then you think that the work inside, as performed by con- tract, has no appreciable advantage over the work performed outside ? A. I think not, there is so little of it. ' Q. What is the extent of the product inside as compared with the product outside ? A. In my particular line ? q. Yes. A. Well, I should not think it was one-fiftieth part. Q. So far as your knowledge goes, what effect does this labor have upon the reformation of the convict? A. I do not know that it reforms him any. As a general thing, they come back again. Q. Do you know the extent of the recommitments to the institution ? A. I do not know for certain ; but I should say that one-fifth, and perhaps more, were recommitments. , 97 Q. What portion of the convicts, so far as you know, have a trade when they come into the prison, that are assigned to you?' A. A very small proportion. I should think, out of thirty-five, not more than five. Q. What length of time does it require to become familiar with yon r work? A. About three months. Q. Do they learn a trade there which , they can get employ- ment at outside ? A. Yes : they do at most of the branches. There are some things that men could not get work at outside. Four or five work at small sewing-machines. Q. Do they learn to make a complete slipper inside ? A. No. They work at different parts. Q. Is the slipper business outside carried on in the same manner ? A. Yes. Q. So that, if they become familiar with one part inside, they can obtain work outside upon that same part ? A. Yes. Q. Have you anj' knowledge as to whether they do obtain labor outside at this trade ? A. Some of them do. Q. What proportion, in your judgment, would get labor out- side, if they desired to do so? A. Three-fourths of them could if they wished to work at it. Q. (Bj' Mr. Taylor.) You are a practical mechanic ? A. At that particular business, I suppose I am. Q. Did you ever work at this business before you went into the prison ? A. Yes. Q. How long were you foreman for the former contractor? A. While he was there, — about three years and a half. Q. He had the same kind of contract that you have ? A. His contract ran for a year, and mine for no stated time. Q. Your contract could be thrown up at any time ? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Can you tell, so far as your experience goes, vthe advantage which you derive from employing convict labor, over the advantage which you would have if you employed free labor? A. I do not know that there is any, — nothing more than that I am more used to this particular kind of labor now. Q. Did the former contractor make money ? A. He owed about $27,000 when he got through. Q. So that, financially speaking, it was a failure ? A.- Yes. Q. Was his failure owing to his carrying on the business in the prison ? A. He said it was owing to bad debts. Q. He made sales outside, of the product made in the prison, and failed to obtain pay for the material, in consequence of which he failed? 98 A. So he said. Q. So far as you have been in the business, have you made a success of it? A. I have managed to make a living out of it. Q. Can you tell from year to year, or from month to month, the amount which j-ou make in this business ? A. I should think about six per cent of the money invested in it. Q. What is the capital which you have invested in this busi- ness ? A. I probably do business to the amount of forty thousand dol- lars a year. Q. "What amount of stock do you have at any time ? A. Probably three thousand or four thousand dollars' worth. Q. Then, considering all these things, you do not think there is any advantage derived from your carrying on this business, over what you would derive from carrying it on outside ? A. I do not. Q. (By Mr. Maesh.) Do you sell your goods? A. Yes. Q. Where are they sold mostly ? A. I sell them in Boston, and they are sold West. Q. You sell direct to Boston dealers ? A. Yes. Q. Is Mr. Phillips connected in any way with your business ? A. Only that he buys the goods from me. He furnishes me with material, and I furnish the goods. Q. You turn the goods in to Mr. Phillips at a price ? A. Most of them. Thursday, Oct. 30, 10.30 a.m. TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM B. RICE. William B. Rice sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) With what firm are you connected? A. Eice & Hutchins, 125 Summer Street. Q. Have you a contract with the prison authorities at Con- cord? A. Yes. Q. What is the form of your contract? A. The contract is for the labor of a hundred convicts to manufacture boots and shoes. Q. You also manufacture boots and shoes outside of the prison ? A. Yes : the prison-work is less than one-fifth of our business. • Q. What is the contract price which you pay for them ? A. Forty cents a day. Q. In addition to this, what is supplied by the prison authori- ties in room, steam-power, &c. ? A. They contract to furnish suitable room, with steam-power. 99 at one hundred dollars per horse-power ; but, as we could not come to an exact understanding as to the amount of power, we contracted to pay five dollars per annum per man for it. The en- gineers differed as to the amount of power used. Q. Do 3'ou have to insure your property there ? A. Yes : we pay from one to two per cent more than we pay outside. It is with difficulty that we insure at all : we have to take low-grade companies, because first-class companies will not take the risk. Q. What amount of stock do you carry at anj' one time, or the average stock, in prison? A. Do you mean the stock and the machinery ? Q. The entire investment. A. I should think we had an average in the prison of about thirty thousand dollars. As fast as the goods are produced, they are sent outside. Q. What portion of this is in machinerj' and other fixtures ? A. Allow me to say, that, in answering these questions, I do it approximately. Our machinery, I should think, would be in the neighborhood of twenty-five per cent. I cannot tell exactly now. Q. About seven thousand or eight thousand dollars ? A. I should say from seven thousand to ten thousand dollars. Q. The balance of the thirty thousand dollars is in manufac- tured and unmanufactured stock? A. I am giving an average. We sometimes have more, seldom less. Q. How many hours are your convicts at work under the con- tract? A. As many as the prison authorities think suitable, I suppose. We have not any voice in the matter. They march them in when they desire, and put the same. They only work by daylight, and I understand that they have to get breakfast by daylight also. They are marched in in order, and they are marched out something like twenty minutes before dinner-time. Then, I believe, they have an hour for dinner. Then they are marched in again, and are marched out in time to- get their supper, and go to their cells before dark. I am not there daily ; but this was my experience when I was there daily. Q. Would you say^ that they work nine hours, on an average ? A. I should say they seldom worked nine hours. I should say that the longest time in the j'ear was less than nine hours, and that in winter-time it is very much less. I would not undertake to say. We keep the average at the prison. Q. Will you state the average work that they will do in a day as compared with men outside ? A. That is a very hard matter to answer. There are men in the prison who can do as much work as any outside. I think the general understanding is, that they will do half to two-thirds of what men do outside. I think there are no men in the prison who do over two-thirds, and many men not over half, and they become, accustomed to doing so much. Then, beyond the question of amount, comes that of quality. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) You say no man does more than two- thirds ? 100 A. There have been certain exceptional circumstances when they have done more ; but the best of them will not average more through the year. When I say two-thirds, I am estimating our best men. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) I desire a fair average. A. Half to two-thirds : I cannot give it more accurately. Q. Will you state the quality of the goods you manufacture ? A. We do not attempt to make a high or even average grade of goods, at present, because in our experience we have not found it a success. Q. How does the worlt compare with the work made outside ? A. It is a lower grade. It is not worth so much on the mar- ket ; that is, the same stock put into the same work inside and outside will not bring the same price. In qualification of that, perhaps I might say that we took our contract after there had been one or two contracts placed in the prison for shoes ; and we did not have many shoemakers assigned us : they had already selected the shoemakers. We did not think it advisable to attempt to make so good a class of work as if we had had the selection. Q. Can you give the names of the parties who had that con- tract? A. At that time there were two contracts, — Mr. Blanchard, and Messrs. Davis & Whitcomb. Q. Now, will you tell the Committee about the amount of boots produced in a given time, — three months or six months ? A. I could tell exactly the number of pairs produced in a year by reference to my books. Q. We would be very glad to have that statement, if you please. A. We are working a hundred and twenty men on the aver- age — twenty more than the contract, because they are there ; and I think we produce not far from five hundred pairs per day — boots and shoes. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Will you be kind enough to state the kinds of work which you make at the prison ? A. We make principally men's coarse work, — split-leather upper-shoes, men's brogans and coarse boots. Q. Give me a trade name ? A. Brogans and boots are the trade name. Q. Will you be kind enough to state, as near as you can, now, the number of pairs of brogans that you produced, say, within the last year ? A. I cannot do it, at present, because I have not the figures. Q. In regard to the stint : will you be kind enough to tell how many pairs, say, of these coarse, split shoes, that you require a convict to last in a day ? A, Will you please state what yon call lasting ? it covers a great variety of work. Some would have one man tack on the inner-sole, another man draw on the upper, &c. Q. But if a man tacks on a certain number of inner-soles, somebody follows him, and draws over a certain number, so that it is practically a certain number of shoes for one to last. That is, if there are five different men to last, it is easy to tell what they do. A. I can only say that our best men do two-thirds of a day's ioi work outside. If it is customary for a man outside to last fifty pairs of cheap, split brogans, we would expect a maa inside to do two-thirds of that number. Q. Would it not be better to give us the numbers, and let us divide them? A. It might be better, if I could ; but the men are changing all the time, and you cannot get at it as you can with men outside. It is impossible to figure prison labor as j'ou would outside labor, or to compare one with the other in the way j'ou are going at it. Q. I would like to insist, if the Committee permits, that you give us somewhere near the number of pairs that you require for a stint in lasting, — we will say boys' coarse shoes. A. We do not make boys' shoes. Q. Well, men's. How many do you expect a man to last? A. It depends upon the kind of shoes, — all the way from twenty-four to thirty-six pairs. Q. Do you have any that j'ou require less than thirty-six? A. If you will state what you call lasting, I will tell you. I have answered you in the best terms that I can, — two-thirds of what a man does outside. Q. You have stated that j'ou produce five hundred pairs of boots and shoes in a day. Will you state how many boots and how many shoes ? A. They have been for the last six months principally boots, though a few shoes. For the next six months they will be prin- cipally shoes. Q. Can you tell how many boots and how many shoes ? A. About five hundred pairs a day. Q. Do you require more work from convicts now than you did when they were in Charlestown ? A. I cannot say about that ; but I think we do. I think we require more from men who have become accustomed to the work. A great many of them were new at it at that time. We are con- stantly changing our methods of work, and divisions of labor. We have been there only two or three years, and we are changing all the time. Q. Is it not a matter of fact, that in our trade, in a greater part of the divisions, it does not take a long time to learn? A. That depends upon the men. Q. 1 am talking about the average man. A. If you take a man who is not an average mechanic, and does not want to learn, it will take a long time. Q. As a matter of fact, will you state how long it will take a man of average intelligence to learn to buff' a shoe on a bufflng- machine ? A. He can buff the first shoe he tries ; but the question is how well he will do it. Q. How long is your contract for ? A. Three years. Q. Could not a man of ordinary intelligence be taught the shoe trade, or almost any division of it, in three years ? A. If he desired to learn it, he could. Q. Don't you speed yom;' machinery inside just th,e same as outside ? 102 A. I do not know. We speed it as we think best. Q. Is it not speeded at as higH a rate as outside ? A. I do not know ; but we do just as we think desirable. Q. Then the machinerj' is speeded about the same as outside? A. I should suppose it would be. Q. Then, if it is speeded at the same rate, it is natural to sup- pose that the work must go through as rapidly as outside ? A. Not at all. A machine docs not work alone. Q. A m^n at a McKay machine must sew as fast as the ma- chine revolves. The only matter wherein there can be a difference of speed is the length of time it takes him to put the shoe on, and take it off ? A. It depends on the man. Q. It must be a good man to run a McKay machine ? A. We have nothing to do with McKay machines in the. prison. Q. Well, take a pegging-machine? A. As a rule, a machine will do less in prison than outside. Q. If a man is working at a machine, and the machine is speeded as high as it would be outside, how do you figure that a man does only two-thirds of a day's work ? A. I figure it as a matter of experience. I have stated, that, under certain circumstances, men have done a large day's work ; but, as a matter of fact, men at machines will not average more than two-thirds of a day's work. Q. Will you state what inducements are offered to convicts to do more than an average day's work? A. We offer inducements of various kinds. We encourage them, and we have been allowed to give them fruit at the end of each week. When we first took the contract, I made a practice of sending fruit there every Saturday. They are allowed newspapers and a variety of little things which they ask for, and, with the consent of the prison officials, we are allowed to give them. Q. It is by inducements like those that you get extra labor? A. Yes. Q. How far are they used ? A. Not very far, because it does not work well, as a rule. It costs more than it comes to. The best way we can handle them is to. ask the oflicials to make them do fair work- Q. All you have given them is fruit ? A. Tobacco is used in the prison. We are compelled, I think, by our contract to give them tobacco ; but I do not think it speci- fies the amount. Q. Every man ? A. Every man if he wants it, and I think, when he does not use it, it is commuted. Q. Who fixes the stint that each man is expected to do? A. I do not think that that would be a proper way to put it. I do not think any man has a stint. Q. Who sets the task? A. We call upon every man to work all the time, unless he does two-thirds of a full day's work : when he comes up to that, we are perfectly satisfied. 103 Q. Will yoa be kind enough to state the number of pairs that you consider two-thirds of a day's work? A. If you will tell me the precise kind. Q. I will let you do that. A. In the first place, let me tell you, I do not go into that prison once a month. We have men who run the different depart- ments. I should have said, that, for about every ten prisoners, we have to have a man to oversee, who is an expensive man. We have men there who get from the prisoners all the work that they are willing to do, and the man who can get the most work from them without injuring them is the best man for us. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) How many men do j'ou employ as overseers ? A. About one to everj' ten prisoners. Sometimes more and sometimes less. Q. You could not say how many you have employed now ? A. I should say that that was the nearest I could give it. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Then you have twelve instructors there ? A. I think so ; but, on the average, about one to ten. Q. It seems difficult for me to get an answer to my question as to the number of shoes that a man is expected to last in a day. A. I could not tell you the exact things done. Q. Have you anybody in your employ who can ? A. We have. I do not know of anybody in the State who is making just the same work that we are, because we aim to make our work a little different from any other. When j-ou come to lasting, we have, as I have said, changed our method the last year. In making coarse shoes, brogans, and plough-shoes, I should say (to count lasting as tacking on the inner-sole, drawing over the upper, and fastening it properly, and taking the welt to the outer sole) , — I should say that outside a good man would be ex- pected to do forty or fifty pairs in a day, and inside we should expect a man to do thirty to thirty-six pairs. [Since this answer was given, I learn that we ask our expe- rienced lasters to tack on the insoles, and draw over the upper, to thirty-six pairs per day : the welt is laid, and sole tacked on, by another man. We have men outside the prison who do seventy- two per day.j Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Thirty to thirty-six? A. Yes, of coarse work. I am mentioning what I call the outside figures, — the very best men. We have had men work for months who did not do twenty pairs a day. Thirty to thirty-six. pairs is for the best men after they have become experienced. A man who outside would do forty to fifty pairs, if arrested, and sent to prison, we should not expect to do more than the number I have named. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) In regard to the grade of the goods that you make, is it the same grade and quality that you make in your factories outside ? A. No. It is the same grade of stock ; but we cannot get the same grade of goods out of it. 104, Q. Don't you sell them in the same market? A. Yes, and to the same customers largely, but for a less price. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) I want to understand whether, when a machine is what Mr. Litchman calls " speeded," the man who is attending it hasn't got to keep up with it. A. Take a pegging-machine, for instance. After the shoe is on the jag, the machine itself turns it ; but, when it is there, it depends on whether he does his work well, and, if the shoe is not guided properly, the work is worse than nothing, because the shoe is spoiled. The machine will run the same inside as outside the prison. Q. Does the machine run as many hours ? A. No. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) In the same number of hours, it will do the same work ? A. Yes. The machine will. Q. Then, if the machine pegs forty pairs of shoes a day, some- body has got to last fortj', and somebody has got to finish forty ? all the subdivisions must be done? A. I think you have assumed, in making your point, something which will not bear investigation. I understand that you assume, that, because a machine can do a certain amount of work, the men there must do it. Q. I mean while the machine is in motion. A. That is an entirely wrong assumption. When a shoe is on a machine, the man has got to do that shoe in a certain time. But a machine will peg several pairs of shoes in a minute, and he may occupy several minutes in putting one on. Q. How many pegging-machines have you there? A. I think we have three. Q. Will you state the task that is required from pegging-ma- chines ? A. We never make any, because it is not possible. When we are going to teach a man to run a pegging-machine, we pick out one who can be trusted, for it is important work. Q. I want to get at, if I can, the number of shoes or boots, or boots and shoes, that you get from a pegging-machine in a day in your prison. A. I cannot answer that now. We have three men at ma- chines, and I think it would be possible for one man to do it all in a day. One man can peg five hundred in a day. I have known a man to peg a thousand. We have a man outside who does twice as much for us as he did inside, and he did well there. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Did he learn of you ? A. He learned in prison. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) You say that the best men outside do forty to fifty apiece, and inside thirty to thirty-six. What do the poorest men inside and outside do ? A. Just about the same proportion. I was careful to state what I called lasting. Q. Well, can j'ou state the average that they will do inside and outside ? 106 A. Outside we would not use poor men in lasting shoes. We have to put on a certain number of men, and they all do about the same amount of work. If we had a man who could not do the day's work, we would discharge him. I made a range of forty for the poorer men, and fifty for the best. Q. Can you give me the cost of the production of goods inside as compared with the cost outside? A. I said that we have in the prison at all times thirty thou- sand or forty thousand dollars, at least ; but the manufactured goods we have to carry outside. Q. What is the average capital invested ? A. Fifty thousand dollars ; but at times we have over a hun- dred thousand dollars. Q. You mean that twenty thousand dollars' worth of prison- stock is made, and carried outside? A. Yes. Q. My question was to have you give a statement, considering capital and every thing, of the cost of the goods inside as com- pared with those made outside. A. We do not make exactly the same quality : we cannot do it. The questions which I have been answering to Mr. Litchman do not cover the point. I can probably give it to you in a very close percentage. The cost of producing a given number of pairs of shoes from the same stock, the way we manufacture them in the prison, is about eighty per cent of the cost of producing them outside. I am giving you my best judgment. I should say that the cost of producing a case of twelve pairs of shoes from the same material inside of prison as compared with outside, just the cost of labor, is eighty per cent. The cost of findings, &c., which are liable to be wasted, and for which we charge men outside, is greater in the prison, because of waste. Then there are many lit- tle things, such as tobacco, that are not figured out. I estimate, that, if it will cost me a dollar to make a certain shoe outside, it will cost eighty cents inside ; and then I estimate that the outside labor is worth twenty per cent more : it will bring that. Q. The advantage you get is in the labor of the prisoners in- side? A. But, to offset that, there are some disadvantages. In my estimate of the cost I should say that what costs me for the labor a dollar outside would cost me about eighty cents inside. Q. After the article is made up, what do you get for it, when it has been made in prison, if compared with what it would bring if made outside ? A. I get just about as much less as the difference in the cost of production. For the last four years we have run four factories outside, and our average profit would vary less than one per cent ; that is, the profit from our prison business is not greater than the profit on outside business. Neither have the prison goods sold any closer, for we do not intend to sell without our profit. The profit on our prison business has not averaged greater during the time of our contract than the average profit of our other business. And, besides, we have averaged to carry a greater amount of man- ufactured goods from the prison than from the factories. 106 Q. How does the product of convict labor compete with free labor, or aflfect the general industries of the State ? A. The production of one pair of shoes must have its influence, although so slight a product has no appreciable effect ; j'et chan- ging a shoemaker from a . respectable citizen to a convict does not increase the production, it actually diminishes it by more than one-third ; so that, if a large product is harmful to the interest of the laboring-man, the more of his comrades that get into the prison, the less the product, and, in that sense, the better for him. If a man who has learned a trade gets into prison, the competition 'from that particular man must be diminished, even though he work at the same trade as before, because he works less hours, less rapidly, and does poorer work. If it were possible to gather together all the vicious, idle, and disorderly persons who are now outside of prisons, and compel them to work at any of our common industries, I believe it would be an advantage to the com- munity, and especially to the laboring-man, the product of whose labor supports the idle. If this is not true, then, the more idle and vicious people, the better. Q. If you did not have a prison contract, would you make the same quantity of goods outside that 3'ou now produce ? A. I should ; because we have established a trade for them. Q. So that the quantity made there does not come in contact with the manufactured product of free labor ? A. I must say, that, for every hundred pairs of shoes made there, there would have to be a hundred made outside, if we had no contract. It must have this effect ; though I have never seen it. Q. If there were a limited demand, the conflict would come ? A. That is true. Q. If there were an unlimited demand, it would make no dif- ference ? How is that case ? Is there an unlimited demand ? A. During the last three months there has been a demand, seemingly without limit, for certain grades of goods, and yet we have to-day four hundred cases of prison goods on hand. Q. Do you have to force the sale of these prison goods ? A. Yes. There is an impression, a feeling against them, beca,use they are not supposed to run even. I do not think that feeling prevails to so great an extent in the West, where they are making better goods ; but I am talking of my own experience. Q. Where are they sold? A. Partly West and South. Q. Could you give us the gross amount of boots and shoes made in the State ? A. I could not, at this moment. I could give it in a short time. Q. Will you give us that information? A. I will. Q. What is the effect of this system upon the question of free labor ? A. I never have seen any effect, except in cases where people have supposed it has done them harm. Of course, if five hundred men in prison do three hundred days' labor, it either adds three 107 hundred days' labor to the labor of the country, or takes away three hundred days' labor from outside workmen, if there is no demand. But I should say that the effect would be worse if the prisoners remained idle. I never have felt any effect from it myself, and never have seen any. Q. What is your opinion of the effect of the system upon the reformation of the convict? A. I would not specify the contract system particularly ; but it is very plain to me that labor in the same branches that are carried on outside, and in the same way, has a reformatory influence, because it teaches the prisoners a trade by which they can earn their living. Q. Is it your experience that thej' do obtain emploj'ment out- side, when they are discharged from the prison, as a general rule? A. I only know of my own men. Whenever a man who has worked for us inside comes to me, I have made it a special matter to give him work, if he wishes it. In many cases I have done so, and there are many men at work for me now, good citizens. Q. The subdivisions inside are the same as outside, so that they can get employment at the same work that they did inside ? A. In a general T( ay. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) You say that you have many of those men at work for you ? A. I will say several. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Now, with regard to the reformation of the convicts, I would ask if the contract convict-labor system has a better influence for the reformation of the convict than the public-account system, so called. A. That is something I am not familiar with. Q. If you have an opinion, will you sa}' which would be the better system for the reformation of the convict and the interest of the State? A. As I said before, I am not familiar with the State system. I would say that the contract system, if the contractor does what I believe is his duty, would have the advantage over any system where the parties who had control of the labor inside did not have any interest in the men after their discharge. We find it not only a matter of duty, but of policy, to use our men, if worthy, when they get out ; that is, give them employment. Men who are to be discharged soon are more likely to do right there, it they feel, that, by doing right, they can get employment outside at fair wages. I have made it a rule to employ men outside, if they wanted emploj'ment. If I did not have a place, I would make a place for him, and keep him as long as he did well. Q. Do the instructors have a good or a bad effect upon the prisoners ? A. That depends, of course, upon the character of the in- structor. I never knew of any ill effect from the presence of instructors. We are supposed to select men of good character and reputation, and it lies with the warden entirely to say whether a man shall, or shall not, go in. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) He can put his veto upon them? 108 A. Yes ; and he did so in Charlestown some years ago, when a man who was very important to us was not allowed in. They said he carried a letter for one of the prisoners. But they never pro- ceeded against him, as they could have done, according to law. Every man who goes in as instructor or contractor has certain rules to govern him, which he must abide by, or become criminally liable. Q. If he does not, does the warden have authority to discharge him? A. It is entirely with the warden to say whether a man shall go in or not, and he has used that authority in several instances, to my knowledge. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Don't you think that the discipline of the prison could be better controlled if the warden had no one in the prison except his own officers ? A. Inasmuch as the warden has authority to discharge any outside man any day, I do not see why the fact of a man being employed by private parties, instead of the State, makes any difference. He has the same power over them as over his own men. Q. There is one point that you made, that it is impossible to make a good class of work in the prison. A. I do not say that it is impossible ; but I say that it is not practicable. Q. Are you acquainted with the goods of the East New- York Boot and Shoe Company- ? A. Yes. Q. Don't thej' make pretty good work? A. It is not all done in prison, though. Q. Eighteen hundred thousand dollars' worth are. A. I state that all the goods — that is, all the shoes — are not made in prison. I have not said that it is impossible ; but I say it is irnpracticable. They do a portion of the work inside, and a portion outside. The finishing is done principally outside, I am told. Mr. Hill. We saw some finishing at Albany, and thought it was beautifully done. Q. (By Mr. Marsh. ) Is there any thing to prevent them from taking the material from you, and making the shoes them- selves ? A. You mean that the State should hire suitable overseers, and make up the goods at certain prices? I do not see any objection to that, except that the State would be going into the shoe-manufacturing business, which would be objectionable to some. Q. No, it would be simply taking work in, and doing it for so much per pair, — you to send the stock, and they to return the boots. Isn't that feasible? A. I do not see any objection to it, if you can get the work to do. I would not have work done for me, unless I could control the method. There would be a continual wrangle as to quality^ Where we put out work to be bottomed, when it is not up to a certain standard, we do not pay for it. I do not know of anybody 109 •who would be willing to make the arrangement you speak of with the prison. Q. Your contract was for a hundred men. Suppose the business should be subdivided, so as to make a greater diversity of industries in the prison, how much smaller number would it be an object for you to take on a contract? Suppose that it was necessary to reduce the number of men on shoes from a hundred to fifty? A. I' do not think it would be profitable for any contractor to work that number of men. It would not, certainly on our class of work. You have to have men to oversee, and the expense would be considerable. Q. You think a hundred men would be as small a number as it would be an object for you to take ? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Tatlok.) How long have you been a contractor for prison-labor ? A. I think it will be four years next March. Q. Do 3'ou contract for the labor of any other prison ? A. No, we never had any other prison contract. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Have j'ou any idea of the number of coarse, split upper-leather shoes made in Massachusetts? A. I cannot tell. I do not know of anybody who makes the same grade that we do, though they make similar grades. I think there are a great many more than twenty manufacturers who make them. Almost every large manufacturer who keeps a large line of goods either makes, or has made for him, a low grade of goods. I should say that there are at least twenty manufacturers whom we compete with, and each of whom makes as many as we do in prison, though we make only a small part in prison. Q. Then the amount that you make would be about five per cent of what is done outside ? A. I said as many as twenty ; but I would like to think that over before I made any positive statement. There are whole towns that make a similar grade of goods ; that is, they make of similar stock a better grade of goods. So, if I were going to make an approximation of the whole amount produced, I would get what those towns produce, and add the figures together. Now I think of it further, my estimate of twenty would not be enough. I will get the information as near as I can. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What percentage pf those whom you have inside do you give work to after they are discharged ? A I should say that we had at work for us now at least ten per cent of the prisoners who have been discharged from our shop. That estimate may be entirely too high ; but I will give you those figures in my written answer. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Is there any feeling towards those convicts where they are working ? A. There has been a feeling in one shop. We have four men, one, a pegging-machine operator who learned his trade in the prison, and whom I am paying three dollars a day. He is the best man I ever knew in the prison. There was a feeling at one time against them. One of them married, and went down East, 110 and went into a family to board. They liked him very much, until they found that he came from prison ; and then they told him he must leave. But he has a house of his own now ; and the feeling against him is over. I make it a point not to tell, generally, that a man comes from prison ; but I say to the foreman, " As long as he behaves himself, keep him ; and, when he does not, discharge him." I think their competition is felt more when they get out than it is when they are in. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Have you had any trouble with trades- unions ? A. No. Q. Suppose you could get competent men in prison to do it, would there be any objection to having the work carried on with- out outside instructors ? A. I do not think that any convicts could be got to give the necessary interest to it by compulsion. Then you would have to have a new order, to the effect that contractors might give the men a certain amount of money. There are very few men who would be trusted, even if capable , Q. If put in a responsible position, wouldn't he at once feel an interest? There are institutions, where work is done on State account, where the men are trusted. A. I do not think that we could find men among our hundred who would advautageouslj'' take charge of these separate depart- ments. Q. One great objection to the contract system is, that it intro- duces men who are outsiders, and it seems inconsistent with the highest and best degree of discipline. A. If this work is to be done in prison, you must have over- seers ; and what difference is it, whether we hire them, or the State, provided the warden has complete control over them? And our contract specifies that he shall. Q. What advantages are there in a prison contract? Why do you contract for labor at Concord ? A. We contracted because we .did not know any thing about it. If we had, we would not have done it. If I had a prison contract offered me to-daj', and I knew what I had to go through before arriving at a point where it could pay, I would not have any thing to do with it. For two years it was a constant anxiety to me. That fifth of my business gave me more trouble than the other four- fifths Now we have got this prison business built up so, that we are known as dealers in prison-goods, and that, in many minds, cheapens the production all along. If the goods from the factories outside are the least bit off, buyers claim that we have sent them prison-goods. I believe, that, with half the labor we have put to prison-account so far, we could have made more money, and gained in reputation for quality of goods. Q. How long has your contract to run? A. One and a half or two years. The men were worth nothing to us at first, and we had to educate them. Q. Still there must be some advantages, after all ; because we find that there are contractors in every prison. A. Yes. Ill Q. "What is the inducement? A. The inducement is, that after you have established a busi- ness, even if it does not pay any more than outside, it is not best to give it up. It is hard to handle prisoners to advantage. It is something on which you cannot go by theory. It must be learned by experience ; and no contractor can make money until he has learned. Q. They work more uniformly in the quality of work? A. Our work is reasonably uniform, reasonably poor. Q. But every thing in prison is regular, — diet, allowance, &c.? A. Yes. But I do not think that you can say that the work is more regular in the prison, because our men are subject to prison- discipline all the time, and are liable to be put in solitary any time. For instance, you have a pegging-machine man, — we have two of them, — and, if they lie idle, the other men must remain idle. Q. Does that happen often ? A. No ; because we select our men for such work. But the warden has the power to do it. Q. Are your men taken from you frequently? A. It is a common occurrence to have them taken from the shops. Q. Happening every day or two ? A. Yes. Then they have been taken out for a variety of pur- poses. A harness-contractor came in. Two of my best men did not come in the morning. I inquired why, and was told that they were harness-makers, and the harness-contractor wanted them. Then we have to take green men. The success of our business is subject to the discipline of the prison ; and that discipline depends upon one or two men. TESTIMONY OF IRA BLANCHARD. Ika Blanch ard sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) "What is your business? A. The boot and shoe business. Q. Do you have contracts at the Concord Prison for convict- labor ? A. I do : for a hundred men. Q. "What .price do you pay? A. Forty cents a day. Q. "What advantages do you have at the prison? Do they supply steam-power, &c. ? A. Steam-power is supplied to all contractors. Q. Do you have to pay for it ? A. Yes. Five hundred dollars a year. Q. The room you have rent free ? A. Yes. Q. All the machinery in your department is put in by your- self? 112 A. Yes. Q. What amount of machinery do you have there ? What is the cost of it? A. I should say six thousand to ten thousand dollars. Q. In addition to this, what is the amount of stock which you have inside, on the average ? A. Twenty-five thousand dollars, or more, usually. Q. What is the stock which you have to carry outside ? A. That depends on how business is. We usually have insur- ance of about thirty thousand dollars, which we calculate to be enough to cover it. Q. What are the hours of labor of the convicts ? A. That depends upon the sun. Q. The average for the year ? A. In the summer time, when they can go in early, they go in at seven o'clock, and they call it that they go out at twelve, come in again at one, and go out at six. But they cut it short. Per- haps they are not working nine hours and a half now. The days are long enough now so as to work all thej' will any time. Q. Tfhat would be the number of hours in winter ? A. I do not think they get in before eight or half-past eight. It depends a good deal upon the weather. They come out while thej' can see well. Q. Would the average be seven hours a daj'? A. They knock off in winter time at four o'clock, or quarter- past four. They leave off at sunset, anyhow, and, if it is damp and dark, they ring oflF sooner. Not over seven hours, hardly that. Q. So far as your experience and, knowledge go, what is the amount of labor each convict does as compared with the labor of persons outside? A. I do not do any business outside, though I formerly did. I should say they did half, or more, in my kind of work. Q. What is your kind of goods ? A. Boots', mostly. Q. What is the amount of your product ? A. We make about four hundred pairs a day. Q. (By Mr. Maksh.) Are they fine boots? A. Mostly cheap calf boots. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What is the cost of the production of these goods as compared with what they would cost outside ? A. I cannot tell you. Q. Where are your goods sold? A. West and South, mostly. Q. Do they come in contact with the goods manufactured out- side? A. I could not tell. A great many make the same kind of goods we do. Q. Do yon have to force the sales of your goods in the market? A. No. Q. Is there a ready demand for them ? A. There has been a pretty good demand for eight months for those shoes. 113 Q. What do they bring as compared with the same class of goods outside? A. I should say two dollars or three dollars a case. Perhaps three dollars. Q. Is that in consequence of the poorer quality ? A. In the first place they are poorer, and in the next place there is a little prejudice against prison-work. Q. Is the quality inside as good as outside ? A. I do not think the work is quite so good. We put in as good stock as anybody ; but I do not think we get the same work, such as we get in HoUiston, East Weymouth, and those places. Q. You have instructors ? A. Yes. Q. About how many to the hundred ? A. About ten or twelve. We used to have more than that ; but we have not so many now. We used to have about fifteen. Q. Who sets the task of the convicts ? A. I do, if there is any task to be set. Q. Do they have a task ? A. They have it in this way : the contractor sets the task, and, if it is too much, it is liable to be overruled by the warden. Q. Then, in fact, it is set by yourself with the concurrence of the warden ? A. Yes. After a number of years, there is a uniform rate made. They soon get into it. Q. In case the task is not performed, what is done with the convict ? A. If he is able, and yet refuses, he is reported for miscon- duct. Q. To whom is he reported ? A. To the warden. If the warden thinks he could have done his work, he is punished. Q. Do you know what the punishment is ? A. Solitary confinement is all I know. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Is the prisoner allowed to make a state- ment? A. Yes, indeed. Q. The warden hears both sides ? A. Yes. And generally the prisoner has more to say than anybody else. Q. Are there often decisions against you ? A. Yes. They are against me as often as they are favorable. There is not a day's work that could not be done in five hours. They get so used to a certain amount of work, that they can do it very quickly, and we do not change the amount. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) The task is not' increased if you find they can do more ? A. No. Q. How long does it take you to educate the convicts at the class of work that you require of them ? A. It depends upon what it is, and who they are. The best of them learn very quick to do it in the way that they do do it. I do not know that they ever could be taught to do it well. 114 Q. You conduct the trade the same inside as outside ? A. Yes. Q. So far as you know, do they obtain a trade there at which they can get a livelihood outside ? A. We do the work exactly as it is done outside. Q. As a matter of fact, do they get employment outside? A. I do not know so much about that as Mr. Rice ; bat I know that they do in many cases. I know that there are many of them at work in High Street to-day who have worked for me. Many of them are at work in Lynn too. Q. Will you give us your opinion with regard to the eflFect of the sale of your production in the market upon the general indus- tries of the State? A. It would be a mere matter of opinion. Q. Give it if you please ? A. I cannot conceive what effect it would have, there is so small an amount. It might when business was very dull ; but, with business the way it has been for six months, everybody is emploj'ed who wishes to work, in the shoe business. Q. At present there is no appreciable effect ? A. No. If there were more shoemakers, they would be em- ployed. Q. Will j-ou give your opinion of the effect of the contract sys- tem upon free labor ? A. I do not know that my judgment would be worth any thing at all. I do not see really how it could be so. I am not conversant enough with it to know. Q. What, in j'oiir judgment, is the effect of contract convict- labor upon the reformation of the convict? A. I know that many of them behave themselves when they go out, if they have a trade. Of course many of them do not : you cannot expect they will. But many^ of them go to work. Q. So far as your knowledge and experience go, is the contract convict-labor sj'stem better than the public-account system, so called, upon the reformation of the convict? A. I should think it would be much better to set a man to work than to have him loafing. Q. As between the two systems ? A. I do not know any thing about that. I do not see how it would work at all ; that is, to the pecuniary advantage of the State. Q. In respect to the reformation of the convict? A. As to that, I really do not see what difference it makes one way or another, unless the State would get better men in to over- see the work than the contractor would. I do not see any other difference, and I really do not think they do generally get better men than the contractors. I think the contractors, for their own interest, would get better men than the State. Q. Have you ever heard any complaint with regard to the evil done by the instructors coming in communication with the pris- oners ? A. Yes, but very little, however. I believe I have had one man shut off since I have been there — a number of years. 115 Q. (By Mr. Hill.) How long have you been there? A. Eight or ten years. The warden thought one of my in- structors brought in or carried out a letter, and did not allow him to come in again ; and I think he was right. Q. Only one such case ? A. I have had two. A number of years ago I had one. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) You spoke about the revival of business, and the effect of the amount of labor done inside being less than when business was dull. You think, that, in a dull season, there would be some slight effect ? A. More than in good times. "When everybody is employed, that settles the whole question. Q. One of our inquiries is in relation to the advantages to the contractor over other parties. "When times are good, does not the contractor have the advantage over other parties, because he gets his labor for so much anyhow ? A. That does not work always, because they have a way of putting up the price. Q. Have you any clause allowing your contract to be annulled ? A. Yes, after three months' notice. Q. Have you ever had a contract annulled? A. No ; but there have been some annulled. Q. The clause would refer, then, more to some breach of con- tract than to the price paid ? A. It could apply either way. Q. If the price remained the same in the time of good trade, the contractor would have the advantage ? A. Yes, when it is good ; but, when it is dull, he does not have much advantage. Q. When it is dull, doesn't he have to force the sale of his goods ? A. Yes. Q. Doesn't he then fix the price for the market? A. No, I think not. Q. Let me illustrate. Suppose you have ten thousand cases of goods on hand, the accumulation of the dull season. Just pre- vious to the opening of the spring trade, it is necessary for you to raise money ; and would not the sale of those goods then fix the price of all goods of that grade sold in the market that season ? A. I should say not, by any means. That is so small an amount as compared with the whole, that it would have very little effect. Q. Would not the only way you could get at that be to com- pare the amount made by you with the amount made altogether? A. Yes. Q. If the whole number were two hundred thousand cases, would not ten thousand cases affect the price ? A. Not at all. When they are gone, there is nothing to take their place. Q. But, until they are sold, nothing can be sold for a higher price ? A. They might all be taken by one man. Q. But if you offered them, say, for twenty dollars a case, would not that price be quoted against other manufacturers ? 116 A. That would be natural. Q. Would it not be natural that that would get others to manu- facture for the same price ? A. Yes. Q. And in that way serve as a means of breaking down the price of the goods ? A. I hardly think one man could break down the market. Q. I have seen it done in my trade. A. Whoever did it must be a big dealer. Q. If he had ten thousand cases ? A. It would take a good while to make that number in prison. You might say five hundred cases : that would come nearer to it. Q. Would you not accumulate a great deal in a' dull season ? A. I never accumulated more than five hundred to seven hun- dred cases. Q. You have a good ready market? A. Yes. Q. Could you state what the production of j'our labor would be for three months ? A. Nearly four hundred pairs a day. Q. About twelve thousand a month : that would be thirty-six thousand pairs — a thousand cases — in three months, allowing thirty-six pairs to a case, provided you did not sell any. That would be, perhaps, sixty thousand dollars' worth. Would not the putting of that amount on the market in Boston break the market ? A. No. It would have no more effect than whether it rained next year, or the year after. If the accumulation of Batcheller should run on for six months, and then he should force it, then it would make trouble. Q. The total prison product is somewhere about seven million dollars, in round numbers. Take the whole product, and pile it up, and put it on the market, and it must have an effect in fixing the price of that grade of goods. A. You can suppose a good many things. But that does not happen. Q. Don't you think that the putting-out of that amount of goods would affect the market? A. I do not doubt it. But it never happened, and there is no chance for it to happen. It is a matter of utter impossibility. Q. It is claimed by manufacturers, that it not only can, but does, happen. A. I should say that the man who made that statement did not know much about it. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) You do not think that could occur? A. I do not think it is possible for the contractors not to sell any goods for three months. Q. (By Mr. Litohman.) I do not fix the time at three months. You know that the shoe trade is only eight months in the year. A. They are only stopping now about a month for each season. Q. I know that is the case now ; but I will venture to say, that, for five years, the average has not been more than eight months, or perhaps seven. 117 A. I think that you will find, that, in Plymouth and Norfolk Counties, they have not stopped more than two months and a half in a year. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) You believe that the employment is beneficial to the prisoners ? A. I do not think they could be reformed without it. Q. Do you believe that it would be better if the machinery were done away with, and the work done by hand ? A. Under the present system of making shoes, they could not earn two cents a day. Q. But, as employment is one of the principal influences that you believe in for reformation, if this machinery was done away with, wouldn't they come less in conflict with outside labor? A. They would not do so much work. As the thing is done now, there cannot be any shoemaking without machinery. You must make a new world : j-ou must go back first. Q. Taking away the pecuniary advantages to the State, what would be the benefit to the convict from being employed at hand- labor ? A. It would not make any difference to the convict one way or the other : he would not produce any money to the State, that is all. Q. (Bj' Mr. LiTCHMAN.) Throwing aside the question of profit to the State, and the amount of the contract price, would it not be better for a man to learn to make a whole shoe than a part? A. I think not, because shoes are not made so. Q. But, as a matter of fact, can't a man have a better chance if he can do four or five things, than if he can do only one? A. They do not do it that way. Q. But it is still a fact, that, if he can do half a dozen diffter- ent things, he is more desirable ? In doing the work by hand, a convict must learn to make a whole shoe, and not be one-sixty- fourth part of a shoemaker, as many are now. Is the contract profitable to the contractor ? A. I do not think it is any more so than outside work. Q. Can't you tell if you have made a profit? A. Yes. Business has been good enough the last year, so that I ought to ; but I do not think I have done so much as I would outside. I have had an idea of terminating my contract half a dozen times the last six months. Q. You have been there ten years ? A. Yes. Q. Then you did not get out? A. No ; I got into the way of it, and it did not seem easy to, get out. My impression is, that there are not more than three, contractors for prison-labor who ever made any thing, out of it. The Auburn prison has made money ; but I do not know any othe:r. that ever made a dollar; that is, over what they would make outside. Q. Suppose a convict should be taught to make an entire shoe, could he, after having learned the trade, go outside, and get employment better than if he had learned only a portion ?- A. I do not think it would make a particle of diffference. If 118 he learns the whole trade, he will not be so expert in any one thing : he will learn to do a particular branch as fast again if he does nothing else. Q. If I should come to your shop to seek employment, and I told you that I could heel, trim an edge, slick an edge, peg, or sew on the McKay machine, wouldn't you consider me a more valuable man than if I could do only one thing ? If you were out- side, there would be plenty to be hired, perhaps, for any thing ; but if labor was dull, and you wanted to put a man anywhere, — a man who was a thorough workman on every part, — j'ou might send me around from one branch to another. A. Such a man would be more valuable ; but he could do his work on only one part then. Q. A manufacturer might want a man on heels, on edges, on stitching, or any other part, and might be short of either of those things, and, if a man came in who could do either one, he could put him right on. Q. (By Mr. Maesh.) Do you think, that if the men in prison were taught to work without machinery, when they came to seek work outside, they would be any better qualified to get work where machinery is used, than if thej' had learned with machinery? A. It would not do them any good. They would have to learn the trade all over. They must learn to do it on the machines, except lasting, certain parts of which you do the same one place as another. Fkidat, Oct. 31, 10.30 a.m. TESTIMONY OF CHESTER N. CLARK. Chester N. Claek sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What is your business ? A. Brush manufacturing. That has always been my business since I was old enough to go to a trade. Q. What institution are you connected with in your business relations? A. The Middlesex County House of Correction in Cambridge. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) What is your position there ? A. Agent, I suppose. That is what the commissioners sign me on the card which we send out to our customers. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Agent in connection with the manufacture and sale of brushes ? A. Yes, that is all. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) How long have you been there in that capacity ? A. I think about sixteen years. Q. The principal business of the institution is the manufacture of brushes ? A. Yes, with the exception of doing our own work. Q. It is your duty to purchase all the stock, and see to its manufacture and sale ? A. Yes. 119 Q. The goods are produced on account of Middlesex County ? A. Yes. Q. You may give the Committee the amount of capital which is constantly in use in the manufacture of brushes in the institu- tion, if you have it within your knowledge. A. I think that the only amount ever put in by the commis- sioners, which was when they commenced the manufacture on account of the county, was ten thousand dollars. I have never seen the books to show that ; but I think one of the commissioners told me that one time. But then it has been increased, from necessity, from our own earnings. Q. Can you give the average amount of stock which the insti- tution has, manufactured and unmaimfactured ? A. Would you embody in that all our machinery, fixtures, and every thing? Q. If 3'ou could give them separately, we would be glad to have it- If 3'ou cannot do that, give us your general impression as to the average amount of stock that you have. A. I should say, for the last- two years, embodying the whole, we have had, perhaps, somewhere near fifteen thousand dollars. Q. (By Mr. Maksh.) Aside from machinerj' ? A. I should think it would come well up to that without the machinery. The machinery is not extensive at all. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) What does that fifteen thousand dollars cover ? A. If I should take account of stock to-day as it stands, that would cover all our raw material that we have for manufacturing, and our manufactured goods, whatever we might have. Q. Can you state the value of your product in any given period, — three months, or six months? A. I could not, unless I averaged it. Q. Give us the average ? A. The last few years we have had our shop full ; that is, on an average, sometimes less. But, as a rule, we have had about as many as we had capacity to work to advantage. Q. I wanted to get at the average value of the stock produced in any given time, or you may give it for the full year, if you wish. A. Take it for the year, and I think it would amount to about forty-one or forty- two thousand dollars. Q. Where do you sell your goods ? A. Thegreat bulk of them are sold in New York, and west of New- York State. We sell some here ; but the bulk of what we sell here we sell to other brush manufacturers. Q. State to the Committee as clearly as you can, and in as few words as possible, your system of conducting your business ? A. The class of help that we have there, I have to find out as best I can where I can work them to the best advantage, and commence with them there. We systematize it as well as we can. We put the poorer class at what we call " drawing," — filling the holes with bristles. Those who have any mechanical idea, and sentences sufficiently long, we work in the finishing-shop, where more judgment and experience are required. The same in the boring-room, where we bore the holes. In the varnishing-room 120 we have to have those who have good judgment, and can use it. Well, then, to know how much the goods are costing the county, I have taken different ways at different times. I keep account of how many brushes we made during the week or month, find out the number of prisoners that drew them, the number of prisoners we had up in the finishing-room, and count it up in that way to make an estimate. In the first place we set a value on prison-labor. Those of the poorer class, I reckoned last year 'and the year before, I think, at twenty-seven cents a day ; and that was the average of the earnings. I reckon it in this way. For instance, in certain places where they make a specialty of manufacturing brushes, and hire help to fill the holes, they pay fifteen cents per thousand holes. I reckon our drawing to be the same, and we would make an average of their earnings. Some do not earn more than six or seven cents a day. Then there are some whom we cannot trust anywhere else, and we keep them at this, and they become very expert ; but the average would be about eighteen hundred holes, or twenty-seven cents a day for that class. Q. You say that inside they draw about eighteen hundred holes : how many would a free man draw outside ? A. A free man would not draw outside. It is all done by girls and boys. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) I understand that the poorer men in that department go as low as six or seven cents a day ? A. No. I mean to say that the average is twenty-seven cents a day. Q. But there are some you put down as low as six or seven cents a day? A. I do not put them as low as that. I take all doing that class of work. I could not keep track of the different ones. Q. What did you put at six or seven cents a day ? A. I said, that, in this number I have averaged at twenty- seven cents, there are some who do not earn more than six or seven or ten cents a day, and from that up to forty ; but the aver- age would be twenty-seven cents a day. We have many men who come in, and we try them a week, and find that they waste more than they are worth. We have many thirty, forty, and sixty day men ; and the men in that department are constantly going. Some daj's eight or nine go out, and as many come in. Then in the upper shop, we see how many brushes we finish, and how many men we have ; make a calculation of how much they are doing, and put that down. The average number of men who worked on brushes last year was a hundred and eighty, or a hundred and eighty- one. Of those, I put forty-six at fifty cents a day, and a hun- dred and thirty-five at twenty-seven cents. That is the method that I took to set a value on their labor. I studied up as much as I could to find what they were paying for that class of labor in other institutions. For instance, in Concord I was told that men were getting forty-five and fifty cents a day. Q. (By Mr. Moksb.) You observed that outside this work was done by boys ? A. Yes. Q. Could you state to the Committee how much those boys would earn at the same work outside ? 121 A. I should say that they would earn, on the same class of work — girls make from five to six or seven dollars a week. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) "When you say that it is done by boys, you mean boys and girls ? A. Here they mostly employ girls. In New York they used to employ boys mostly. When girls were employed, they had to take their work away. But the amount paid for the labor was about the same, whether it was done by a girl or boj' ; only girls would be more expert in drawing fine work than boys. The thing is very materially changed. Q. Did the boys and girls do other branches, and, if so, what did they get ? A- No. After the drawing, the brushes go into the hands of men or large boys, to do the remaining work ; but now it is done, as a general thing, on machines, which makes a great difference. When I worked on brushes, we had to saw the blocks out one at a time ; but that is not done now, except in very small places. About all the manufacturers in the brush business use power, for it is necessary in order to compete. Q. The old style of doing this work by hand is out of vogue? A. It is gone by. A man could not live by it now. Q. All the manufacturers outside, so far as you are aware, use machines precisely as you do inside ? A. Yes. In New York, where they have fine kinds of work, it is all done bj' machinery. They have gone so far as to make a whole brush by machinery. The simple block is put in, and when it comes out, it is a brush, ready for sale. Down in New Haven there is a concern that make coarser work, — the same as we are making, to some extent. They put the block in, set the grass in place, and the brushes drop down all ready to pack up for sale. There is a company in New York, I am told, that has eight machines at work, making scrubs and shoe-brushes, and each of the eight makes thirty thousand holes a day. They make a third more holes in a day than we do, and that is where the competition comes from. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Will you state, so far as you know, the amount of the product in the prisons of the State of Massachu- setts ? What it is as compared with the amount made in outside shops ? A. I could not give a very definite answer, because I know but very little about the amount of business which the brush-manufac- turers are doing. I am not sufficiently posted ; but I should not suppose it would amount to one-tenth part. The others make a different class of brushes. They are finer grades, and bring larger prices. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Can you give any estimate of the pro- duction outside? A. 1 could not, because I know so little about their business that I would not want to venture a judgment. Q. (By Mr. Mokse.) Can you state the prices which j-ou ob- tain for your brushes outside, or how your brushes compare, when you sell them in the market, with the prices of the same class of articles made in outside shops ? 122 A. In answer to that, I can say, as a general thing, I have been obliged to reduce prices from time to time from necessity, in order to sell our goods, because prices were ranging lower outside. I have alwaj's made it a practice to get the biggest prices possible, and have sought marlrets where I thought I could get them. Very soon my customers would be offered the same class of goods for less money, and then I would have to sell as low as anybody else. Q. Hasn't it been your practice to sell under the market- prices ? A. No. On the contrary, we have letters coming every daj--, from parties who tell us that the Cleveland House of Correction, or the Elmira or Jollet institution, is offering goods like ours for lower prices, in competition. Q. Does most of j'our competition come from prisons ? A. The strongest competition comes from those who manufac- ture by machinery, and from prisons in other States. What brushes we make in Massachusetts do not amount, I think, to half what they manufacture in the Cleveland prison alone. Q. (By Mr. Tatlok.) In the whole State of Massachusetts ? A. No. All that is manufactured in prisons in Massachusetts. The Cleveland institution has increased very rapidly, and it is pushing the thing. Q. (Bj' Mr. Morse.) So far as your knowledge goes, are the manufacturers who employ free labor able to manufacture brushes of the character that you manufacture, and sell them in the market so as to make them profitable ? A. They do. I think I could go outside and go into business, and manufacture that class of goods. I think I could make those goods, and get a fair margin of profit. Q. Do j'ou think that j^ou can manufacture them outside with free labor, taking the ordinary prices paid, as cheaply as in the prison ? A. I will not say that I can manufacture them as cheaply ; but I can manufacture them as cheaply as we have sold them, and make a margin. I say our men average twenty-seven cents a day for a certain portion, and fifty cents for the others, and the average earning would be nearly forty cents a day. That is what we would pay into the county treasury, though it might vary from year to year. Q. What, in your judgment, is the effect of the sales of j-our product upon the general industries of the State in that line of business ? A. As far as I know, the great bulk of goods that are manu- factured by brush-makers in Massachusetts, of that class of goods, are mostly sold in New England, because they do not strike out. They do not send men out of New England much ; that is, on that class of goods. Take the Messrs. Whiting : they make a specialty of high-priced goods, and the great bulk of them go out of New England. Bat the smaller folks are confined mostly to New England. Q. Your sales are not confined to New England ? A. We sell only a small portion in New England. Q. So that the immediate effect of the outside sales of your product is very limited? 123 A. Very small in Massacliusetts. I can honestly and conscien- tiously say, that as I can sell better elsewhere, and as the brush- manufacturers of this State are friends of mine, I did not care to put any thing in the way that would interfere with their trade, when it was not necessary. Q. Then your object seems to be to sell your goods outside of New England as much as you can, so as not to interfere with man- ufacturers here ? A. That is one object ; and another thing was, that, as a gen- eral thing, I found it to our interest to do it. The orders from New England would be so small as to hardly pay ; but, by striking out into other States, I can get large and regular orders. Q. Have j-ou within the last year been obliged to force the sale of the stock? A. Not this last year. Q. Have you prior to this ? A. I have never been forced to sell ; but I have held goods for a price. Q- You preferred to hold them, and sell them at a full price ? A. Certainly ; because we have no interest to force goods, un- less we get stuck with a great lot of very cheap brushes, which spoil, because the animal life is not entirely out of the material. A few years ago we were obliged to make a great deal of that class of goods to keep the short-term men employed. After the law was changed, sending men to the State Prison for not less than three years, we got a better class of men. Q. But at no time have you been obliged to force your product upon the market ? A. The only time that I have gone into the market with a stock of goods was a year ago this last spring. We had a large stock of goods, trade having been very dull through the winter. I did not go in to force the goods ; but I did sell them at a reduced price, because my customers in New York told me that brushes manufactured in other institutions could be had for less than we were asking. Q. In your judgment, so far as you know, are not buj-ers able to purchase goods manufactured outside as low as they can those manufactured inside ? A. If there were no goods manufactured in prisons in the country, they might get different prices for goods, or people .would go without them. Q. If there were none maniifactured in prisons, I understand j'ou to say they could manufacture them as cheap outside. Could they not manufacture them, and sell them as cheap at the present time? A. I think it might be done in this way. The smaller the manufactory, the greater the cost of each brush produced. The only way is to have machinery, and then, if a man goes in with his whole life and energy, he can make a pile of goods, at a small price. Q. Then large manufacturers outside of prisons could go in and manufacture stock as cheapl}' as it is done in prisons ? A. Many of them are doing it now. The largest concerns are doing it now. 124 Q. And they are selling in the market as cheaply as goods made in prison ? A. Probably they have to, as far as I know. Q. Can people outside compete with you, considering the prices of labor inside and outside ? A. As things are at the present time, with all these prisons all over the country manufacturing goods, I could find a better invest- ment than to undertake to compete with them, because the buyers now are seeking all these places for goods. The manufacturers themselves, who make different kinds of goods, are seeking these places to buy. If there could be some way of legislating by which this thing could be put on an equal basis throughout the United States, it would be a grand good thing ; but to legislate for Mas- sachusetts, and not for anybody else, would be all the worse for Massachusetts, because those other places would come in here with a rush. Q. Considering wages outside, and prices inside, can you make goods cheaper inside ? A. I could go outside and hire help, without trouble, to do the same amount of work that we do with prison-labor, for fiftj' cents a day. But a man would, have to do more outside, because inside we can work only the hours of daylight. Q. Can you give the Committee the average hours that your men work each per day ? A. I have never given my particular attention to that point ; but I should say not far from eight hours. Q. How many hours would they work outside ? A. They generally work ten hours a day ; and the girls and boj'^s who do the work which corresponds to what is done by our help that I rate at twenty-seven cents a day, work as long as they want to, because they get so much per hundred holes. Q. So that, if they get more outside, they work more hours for the extra pay ? A. They get extra pay, and do an extra amount of work. I do not know but a great deal of our work costs us as much as it does other folks. A man in prison is dilatory, and you think he can do more. You go to him, and he saj-s quietly, " I am doing the best I can." You have to put up with it : there is no help for it. The only waj' I can get more work done is to flatter them and praise them, which they like very well. But some of them are very obstinate, and do not mean to do .any thing. Q. I would ask your judgment or opinion of the effect of this contract-labor system upon the reformation of the convict. A. My impression is, from my own experience, that the em- ployment of prisoners by the State or county is much better for all concerned than to contract for them. The object of the con- tractor is to make money. He would not go there otherwise, and he pushes those men to do as much as possible. They are ignorant, 'jealous, envious, nervous, and they will not stand much. They push them hard : the men complain, and are put in solitary, for which they care very little. I understand that was the way over there when they had contractors. Now, instead of crowding the men, as thej' used to, I treat them fairly. Instead of working 125 them up to the last minute, I calculate that there are so many men in the flnishing-room, and so many brushes to be done, and it is a reasonable day's work for them to do them. When they come up in the morning they understand that they have so many brushes to handle. They go to work as pleasantly as a lot of hired men, with the understanding, that, if they get their work done an hour before bell-time, those men that I can, in the upper shop, I will allow to sit and read an hour. By adopting that course, I can get better work, and have it done more promptly. Q. Your opinio^, then, is, that the public-account system has a better influence upon the reformation of the convict than the' contract system? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Maesh.) Might you not treat the men just as kindly and judiciously if you were a contractor as you do as instructor ? A. I might. But I learn that contractors push things. You cannot drive those men. But the way I treat them they feel so, that, when I am in a hurry with a job, they will say, " I will do it to accommodate you." Q. (By Mr. Hill.) If a man has a contract for five years, isn't it for his interest to learn how to handle the convicts? Won't he stroke them the right way, as you do? A. Most contractors get a contract, and they do not know any thing about it. They do not learn any thing about it, because they are not there. They intrust every thing to foremen and in- structors, and do not come in contact with the prisoners. I am in personal contact with the prisoners every day, and see and know what is going on. Q. (By Mr. Moese.) Are you familiar, at the present time, with the methods of conducting the prison-work at Concord and elsewhere ? A. I am not. The only information that I have in regard to the manner in which these things are conducted is what Gen. Brockway told me in Elmira, and that seems to be entirely differ- ent from other institutions. Q. Is it the custom of the instructors or the overseers of your institution to report to you when men are unwilling to perform the work assigned them ? A. In the upper shop, it is ; in the lower shop, the oflBcer there takes charge of that. Q. When they do not perform the task assigned them, they are reported to you, and do you first try friendly means? A. When a case is brought before me, I generally do. Q. When you cannot pacify the man, and induce him to return to work, what do you do ? A. Then he is reported to the oflScer who has charge of the rank in which the man is. Q. What will the officer do ? A. He will call him up and talk with him, and, if that does no good, he will send him to solitary. Q. How long for oflTences of this character? A. Generally three days. 126 Q. While there, he has the ordinary solitary-convict fare ? A. Yes, as far as I know. Q. Please state, if you can, whether or not the convicts, when they leave your institution, are able to get work outside at the same business you are carrying on inside ? A. I'do not know of a single instance. So far as these insti- tutions being reformatory is concerned, I take but little stock in that. The first few years I was there, I felt very much interested, and tried to get young men situations. I got them situations in brush-shops and elsewhere ; but I never had more than one man who reformed, and became steady and industrious. Q. What is the percentage of recommitments at your institu- tion? A. That I do not know ; but we have a great many who come back. Q. Then your experience is, that the convicts, when they leave the institution, do not find employment outside at the same busi- ness? A. I have no knowledge of their doing it. The trouble has been, so far as my knowledge goes, that they will not work. Q. Can the convicts when discharged obtain work at the same business, if they desire ? A. My impression is, that there would be a prejudice against them in the shops. If it were known that they came from prison, they would not get employment. Q. Of your own knowledge you do not know whether they get employment outside or not ? A. I do not know of any except where I got employment for them, and they might have staid if they would ; but they would not. Q. Is the class of people you have at your institution the class that would be likely to desire work when they get out ? A. A very' small percentage. Q. They are a different class from the class that is sent to the State Prison, as they are short-termed convicts? A. They are young (under twenty) , or advanced in years. A great many of those who go to Concord are smart, capablcj well- educated men. Our boys are very ignorant. Q. Then, if I understand correctly, the class of prisoners that you have at j^our institution are not a class that would desire work outside at brush-making, if they could obtain the labor to do? A. That is my opinion. They are a vicious set, — young house-breakers, and that class of people, — who do not want to work for a living. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Is thSre any factory in Massachusetts that makes the same kind of brushes that you do ? A. They all make more or less of them. Q. Do you think that they could compete with you in the same market, or do they do it? A. I know that there is a great quantity of brushes made by parties outside, and they are often sold for less than I sell goods for. 127 Q. Do jou mean Massachusetts goods ? A. Yes, here in Boston. Q. They make the same class of goods, and sell them cheaper? A. Yes. But I want it understood that I do not say that they are made by these principal brush-makers who have stores. But for the last two or three years business has been dull,- and men who have been out of employment have taken to making brushes on their own account. Q. Have these parties outside who have made brushes, and sold them in competition with you, succeeded in making a living ? A. I do not think they have. When they get an opportunity to go back to journey work, they do so. Q. Then you hardly think that any party in Massachusetts could make the same class of brushes, and compete with you, and make a living? A. I would not want to say that. I will say that those goods, if the business were properly conducted by men of capital, could be made with a margin of profit. One man could do it, and an- other might not be able to keep bodj'' and soul together. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Could any other prison manufacture brushes on its own account, for sale in the market, as well as you da? A. Yes. Q. If there was another institution that was run with the same care as yours is, could it compete with yours? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) As I understand j'ou, if a man can start a large manufactory, and command a large capital, he can compete with you. But the general run of business-men cannot do that. A. The general run of business is carried on that way out- side. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) You have told us that you have reck- oned your work as high as outside worlj. A. No. I put the value of the prison-labor at what prison- labor is contracted for by parties in other institutions. I said, that, so far as what we called drawing was concerned, I allowed as much as was paid outside. Q. After reckoning the cost of the brushes, what per cent do you add for profit ? A. I could not give you what the average would be. Some of them would be a very small margin. The margin on our goods to-day would be anywhere from five to fifteen per cent — none of them twenty per cent. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Did I understand you to say that you could find a better investment for your money outside than to compete with prison-labor ? A. I am only speaking of my own individual work. Q. You thought, that, if a general law was framed, it would be a benefit? A. Yes ; if there was a United States law. But if we are going to have a law which will stop the prison- work in Massachusetts, and let other prison-goods come in here, it would be poor policy for Massachusetts. 128 Q. What would you think of confining the number of men em- ployed at any particular trade to a certain percentage of the whole number employed outside ? A. I am not prepared to make any answer to that. Q. You do not believe there is any reform in your plan? A. I must say that I do not take much stock in the reforma- tion of our boys over there. Q. Do you know of any way that the prisons might be con- ducted so as to reform them ? A. I cannot say that I do. TESTIMONY OF E. N". HUNTING. E. N. Hunting sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What is your connection with the Con- cord Prison ? A. I have a contract in the brush-business. Q. Where do you carry on business ? A. In Boston ; on Washington Street. Q. How many convicts do you contract for ? A. We have now only sixteen. We have had sixty. I have been at the prison thirty years myself. Q. What price do j'ou pay ? A. Fifty cents a day now. We have paid a dollar since I have been there, sixty cents, and forty cents. Q. Do you supply your own machinery and fixtures in the institution ? A. Yes. Q. You use machinery in your work? A. Yes. Q. Who supplies the power? A. They put in the main shaft, and we pay for the power. They supply shop-room and heat. Q. What is the amount .that you have in your machinery, and manufactured and unmanufactured stock ? A. We carry something like eight or nine thousand dollars. Not so much as we used to. Years ago we used to import our own stock, and have a large quantity of it at a time. But within twenty years, things have changed so that we can buy in New York cheaper than we can import ; and for that reason we do not need to carry so large a stock. Q. (By Mr Taylor.) Does the sum you name cover stock and machinery? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What portion of a day's work wiU con- victs do, as compared with a day's work outside ? A. On an average, I should say from half to two-thirds. Q. What number of hours do your convicts work, on an aver- age? A. I have always calculated about eight hours and a half for the year. 129 Q. What is the amount of product for any given time, — three, six, nine, or twelve months? A. I could not tell you that, because I do not keep any ac- count of it. We manufacture the goods, and send them to the store as soon as they are ready. We make a great many different kmds. Though I have only a few men, I am making all the time from six to eight different kinds of brushes. I make paint and whitewash brushes. I used to make cheap work ; but this House of Correction work has knocked it away from me. For twenty years I employed twenty girls and boys at it. But I had to send them off. Q. (By Mr. Maksh.) Do you mean the Cambridge House of Correction ? A. That touched us badly at first ; but, as Mr. Clark said, he has competitors now in the West. I notice his statement, that the price paid outside is fifteen cents per thousand holes ; but you may go anywhere in Boston, and you will not find less than twenty cents paid. I did hear of one man who paid a cent and a half per hundred. In the fifteen or twenty years I ran an outside shop, I paid from two to four cents a hundred. You can imagine how many holes a girl must draw, at fifteen cents a thousand, to make five dollars a week. Take his lowest figures, and it would be eighty-three cents a day. No drawer could do it. I am in a factory every day, and know it. I had no one to assist me when I was running sixty hands. I used to have a great deal of New- York trade ; but this House of Correction knocked me on that. But I do not complain of that institution now, any more than I do of these Western penitentiaries. They have a man who sells goods on a commission of ten per cent. He goes into a store and offers a gross for fifteen dollars, fifty gross at fourteen dollars, a hun- dred gross at thirteen dollars, a hundred and fifty gross at eleven dollars. I cannot do that. I pay a certain price for each man I employ ; and a man will not average more than three thousand holes a day. I pay fifty cents for him. At twenty cents a thou- sand, his work would be worth sixty cents. In that case I do not get paid for my time. In drawn work, you cannot find a shop in Boston that is doing a twentieth part of what it used to do. One place used to employ a hundred and fifty to two hundred men, and that concern does not employ twenty now. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Why is that? A. It is owing to this House of Correction business. We can- not compete with them. I was talldng with Mr. Champion of New York, and he told me the experience he had after he was closed up. He went one Sunday to look at his old factory ; and his for- mer workmen, thinking he was going to start up again, crowded around him. The stories he told of those workmen would bring tears to your eyes. This House of Correction business is just what has done it. Q. How long has this trade been growing up in the prisons of this State and other States ? A. I do not think this Western business has been going on more than five years, though I do not know. When I go to New York, I hear a great deal about it. One concern there, that manu- 130 factures only fine brushes, sold week before last two hundred and fifty gross of brushes that it had bought. Q. Prior to the growing-up of this business in the prisons, who manufactured this amount of stock? Was it done outside of prisons ? A. Yes. And everj-body that made good work made poor work. What 1 mean by that is this. If .a man had a shop's crew of forty, he would have' half a dozen men preparing stock (two or three on paint and whitewash brushes), and the rest would be work- ing on drawn and set work. That would be done by girls. Q. Did this work in prison compel outside manufacturers to cease making coarse goods ? A. Yes : that is it. I do not think that where labor is let by contract, it interferes so much. A man puts his money in, has to pay for labor, and is obliged to keep his prices up. I think the trouble comes where counties and States make goods on their own account. Q. Where is the product of your work sold ? A. Mostly in New England. Q. Do you get as high for it as for the product of free labor? A. Yes. But we probablj' do not sell so much as if we were producing the same goods outside, from this fact : there is a little feeling against this State Prison work. The work is continually slurred without cause, and that creates a prejudice against it. Q. ' You get the market-price ? A. Yes. . Q. Does work which you produce compete with the product of free labor outside ? A. I do not see that it does at all, except that, if this business was not done in State Prison, it would naturally be done outside. As regards price, it does not compete at all. Since I got rid of a part of my men last July, I am buying my cheap work. Q. If what you make were produced outside, could it be pro- duced as cheap ? A. Very nearly. Q. What advantage, if anj', do j'ou have over the manufacturer outside who employs free labor ? A. I do not consider that it would figure up ten per cent, and if I were to start again in life I never would go into an institution. The wear and tear and bother of carrying on business among those men does not pay. I started in young, and am still there, though it is doubtful how long I shall remain. Q. Then, if j-ou had not been a contractor during these years, you would not, at the present time, go in and contract for convict- labor at present prices ? A. No. I do not consider the margin big enough to pay for all the trouble you have. Q. (By Mr. Taylok.) You say that the advantage is ten per cent? A. I do not think it would average that. You cannot really call it that. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) What advantage, if anj-, has the con- tractor for any kind of work, over the manufacturer who employs, free labor ? 131 A. He has no more than I have named on any thing that ever ■was carried on there. I have seen lots of people try it, and fail. I do not know a contractor who has ever made lots of money there. Contractors who were there allowed others to slip in and get the contracts on an increase of a few cents a day. There was Batch- eller, at the old prison, the Tucker Manufacturing Companj' : they were urged to go to Concord, at a less price, but they would not go. They remained, and are hiring the shops, and employing outside labor. They all knew about it, and they did not go to Concord. They preferred to stay, and hire outside labor. Q. Can you in a very few words state the disadvantages of employing convict-labor ? A. You hire a man for fifty cents a day. You do not know what he is until you get him. You want him for a particular branch, and you start in with him. Perhaps he will not answer. Perhaps he turns out to be worthless, and wastes a good deal. You can get onlj' a certain amount out of him. You hurry him up, and he says, " I do all I can." You go and speak to a man, and say, " You are wasting.'' He says, " I am just as careful as I can be." You get many men that you can only just get j-our money back on. Then you get some who will do better. You get men who are uglj', and won't work. I have had men refuse me outright. Q. That is one of the disadvantages that you labor under in employing convict-labor : will j'ou give us others ? A. After you get a man taught, he is all right. But they do not take an interest in the work, and you must watch them constantly, and keep them right. Q. Then the fact that they do only two-thirds of a day's work is another disadvantage ? A. Yes. We do not expect such work as we have outside. And then, when, you hire a man outside, he knows all about his work. This is an apprentice system, to a great extent. For the time a man is learning, you lose money. Then one thinks you are giving another better jobs, and wants to do them himself, when perhaps he could not do them to save his life. Q. Taking the interest on the capital that you have invested, the wear and tear of machinery, the short day's work that the prisoners do, the waste that they may make, and the time in which they are not employed, — all these points constitute, as I under- stand it, the disadvantages of employing convict-labor ? A. Yes, and , perhaps there are more. There is constant trouble. You cannot trust a man. Give him a job, and explain how it is to be done, and you have to come around in ten minutes to see that he is doing it right. Q. Then you say that you would not again enter into the prison business? A. No. And you may call on any contractor who has been there, and talk with him, and he will tell you the same. During the war. Holmes had a contract for five years at fifty cents a day. When labor was high, they jumped us up to a dollar ; but they could not disturb him. When the men were idle, a . little while ago, they went to him to take a contract ; but he said that he 132 would not have it for twenty-five cents a day, or on any terms. No man who has ever held a contract would go back, — not one. Q. Does Holmes manufacture his furniture now at the old State Prison ? A. No. He had a factory in Charlestown, which was burned, and he is now manufacturing on Main Street, Cambridge. Q. What is the effect of the sale of your product on the general industries of the State, if it has any? A. Nothing to hurt them at all. We get as good prices as anybody. Q. What is the effect of manufacturing brushes in prison on free labor outside ? A. It has taken it all away : there is no doubt about that. Ask any brush concern in Boston, and they will tell you the same story. I know they have dropped their hands, and are not manu- facturing the same goods. They say they can buy cheaper than they can make. I buy coarse goods myself. I would rather manufacture them ; but I cannot do it. I had thirty men on the same grade of work that they do in the House of Correction. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Do you buy House of Correction goods ? A. Some of them. It is only since last July that we got rid of our men, and we are buying of some outside parties. I bought of a girl who used to work for me drawing. She started a little place in Cambridge. But those little concerns have no capital, and you cannot depend on them for work when you want it. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) I understood you to say that you would not enter into a contract hereafter, if you were out ? A. No. Q. At the same time you said that the product of convict-, labor was so cheap, that it has destroyed the labor of persons outside ? A. Yes. Q. How do you reconcile the two ? A. I am not speaking of the labor under the contract system, but the public-account. Q. Then it is those who make goods on the public account who produce so much that they throw it on the market, and destroy free labor outside? A. Yes ; from the fact that they sell goods cheaper than any- body else. The Elmira concern, I understand, had a deficit of twenty-seven thousand dollars last year. What would happeij to a man under such circumstances ? Q. So far as the interest of the State is concerned, and the reformation of the convict, would it be better to have the contract than the public-account system ? A. I think it would, altogether. Q. Would it be feasible to abolish the contract system, and adopt any other which would be more beneficial to the State, and more to the advancement of the reformation of the convicts ? A. I think not. As regards pushing men in the State Prison, under this contract system, of course a man must know how to handle men there more than outside. If you are doing work in a 133 prison-shop, and get men down on you, j'ou might as well take your things and go, for there is no power in the prison that can keep those men from ruining you. I have been through that. They will destroy stock, and you cannot tell who does it. Q. Are you your own instructor? A. Yes. Q. If a convict does not perform the dutj' assigned him, what course do you pursue ? A. I have but very little trouble. I have had men say that they could not do the amount of work, and I have told them to take hold and try, and they have generally come up to it. Once in a while, when a man is uglj' and stubborn, I report him ; but I do that. very little, because I have been there so long that I under- stand them pretty well. Q. Does it often occur that a convict refuses to do his work? A. No. Q. Is there any task set? A. No, only on certain classes of work: this draw work — I have only three men at work on that, though I used to have forty. Q. When a convict refuses to work, you report him to the officer ? A. No, not always. They generally come up. They say up there that the brush-shop would run itself. The reports I make there are very few. It is only when I get hold of an ugly man. You cannot allow one man to do less than the others, if he is able to do the full amount. Q. Do you have the setting of the task yourself ? A. Yes. Q. It is not under the supervision of the warden ? A. No : he knows nothing about my business, or any other business that is carried on there. Q. What eflfect has your presence as instructor upon the reformation of the convicts? A. I do not think it hurts them any. I generally give them pretty good advice, and keep the shop running pleasantly. Q. What is the general eflfect of the presence of the instruetors upon the convicts? A. 1 do not see how it is other than good, because it is the object of every contractor to have good men there. Q. What are the inducements, aside from the moral influence, to have them do a large day's work? A. We give them tobacco every week. I always make a prac- tice of it. In some shops they have withheld it. I always give every man his tobacco anyhow ; but I never make any bargain with the men about any amount of work which they shall do as over-work. If I have a job to be done in a hurry, and a man does well, perhaps I send him in a bag of apples, which is allowed. But I never dicker about it. I make no rule about it. I want them to understand that the man who does the best will be treated the best, ^o far as the perquisites are concerned, they are entirely voluntary. Q. You do not withhold tobacco for any reason? A. No. Even the old runner who sweeps up the shop gets 134 his. That keeps up a better feeling, and it is always a good idea to have harmony in the shop. Q. Do the men do their work freely and with a good feeling? . A. The majority of ttiem do ; but there are some who would rather do nothing all day than work a stroke. Q. Do the convicts in your employ learn anj' trade at which they can get a living outside? A. Yes. Q. Do they, when they go out, as a general rule, get employ- ment? A. I do not know much about them ; but some of them have . I have given some of them work myself when I had a shop outside. Only this week, one of my men showed me a letter from a man employed in Chicago. Another, a life man, was pardoned out, and he started a shop of his own. A great majority of the work, such as they do at East Cambridge, is done outside by girls, and you can imagine how much a man could make at it. The brush business is cut up just like the shoe business. In old times a man learned the business clear through ; now ' there are borers, finishers, combers, nailers, men who make whitewash brushes, and paint-brush makers. You can scarcely hire a paint-brush maker who is a nailer. Q. Then the convicts you employ can go outside, and get employment at the same kind of labor ? A. Yes. Q. And could thej' obtain a fair compensation? A. Certainly, because there are lots of men at work ,at the same occupations. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Can they now? A. I do not know why not. I have heard of them working in diflferent places. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) The sale of this class of goods does not interfere with free labor outside ? A. No, because we are obliged to keep up the prices. Q. Have you ever been obliged to force goods upon the market ? A. No, because we have always manufactured about so much, and carried the stock over if we got a surplus. We never got a surplus, except on cheap work ; and that we are not getting now, because we are not making it. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) You stated that the contract system, you thought, would be better for the reformation of the prisoners ? A. Yes, I do not know but what I did. Q. You also stated, that, when the prisoners got down on a contractor, they would ruin him by destroying stock, &c. ? A. If they all got down on him. Q. You have had some instances ? A. Yes, as they have in other shops. Q. How does this agree with your other statement? If you were not a contractor, they could not get down on you ?' A. If the State were running the thing, they would get down on the authorities under the same circumstances, and do just as badly. If you had a general feeling in the shop so that they would 135 hate you, you would not make any headway, because they would bother you to death. . Q. What benefit does the contract system have in reforming them? A. As to reformation, it is not worth while to talk about that. Our State Prisons do not reform. But reformation would be as likely under the contract as under the State sj-stem. Q. There has been some reformation there ? A. Yes ; in individual cases. Q. There is nothing in the prison that would induce them to improve their condition under the contract system any more than any other, js there ? A. I do not know that there is particularly ; nothing that would lead them particularlj-, except the good advice. We have a chaplain there, a library, &c. Q. You have employed outside quite a number of men that you had in prison ? A. No ; not a great manj'. I have not carried on a shop outside for five or six years. Q. How did those men conduct themselves outside ? A. First-rate. Q. That shows that there was some reform ? A. Oh, yes ! There are individual cases. There are men who go out that will do right, and others who will not under any cir- cumstances. I have had men come back two or three times. One would steal a horse and buggy, but would not steal anj' thing else. There seems to be a mania among some of them for certain crimes. Q. ' You think the House of Correction interferes with people outside ? A. Yes. Q. But you do not think the State Prison contract system does? A. It does not, because we have to keep prices up. If I could get help outside as cheap as Mr. Clark says it can be hired, I would go outside and put up a shop at once. I have to reckon my expenses at outside prices. Q. Suppose there were a thousand men employed at brush- making outside the prisons of the State, how would it be to have only a percentage of that number allowed to be employed in prison? A. On the contract system? Q. Yes. A. I do not think you would feel it. I do not think we are felt at all in the market. Q. Would it be an improvement ? The gilt-moulding business — nearly all of it that is done in Massachusetts — is done in the prison ; so that a man must commit a crime in order to have the privilege of working at his trade. If there were only five or six per cent of the whole number engaged in the business, wouldn't it be better? A. You would not feel it. But that is an exceptional case. We have forty men, and that is but a small percentage of the whole. But if this prison, and another, and another, had each forty men, it would be different. 136 Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Mr. Clark tells us that the competition of the Western prisons is ruining the business. How many there are worked by contract? , A. As far as I know, all are on State account. Q. Are they on the same principle as East Cambridge ? A. I think thev are. Nov. 5, 10.30 A.M. TESTIMONY OF GEORGE W. CARNES. George W. Carnes sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Do you do business in this city? A. Yes. I am located at 36 West Street, in the boys' cloth- ing trade. Q. How long have you been in the clothing business ? A. About twenty-nine years. Q. Have you ever had any convict-labor contracts. A. Never. 1 became convinced, a year ago, of the unfavora- ble working of convict-labor in general, or in some special departments. I was led thereby to write articles for the public prints, — "The Boston Post" and "The Brookline Chronicle." Further reflection, and a more intimate relation with the working of that system, constrained me to frame the heading to the peti- tion which you doubtless have seen. I sought to circulate that, and was led to wait upon Mr. Batchelor. I wish to say a word in regard to the apparent apathy of the shoe-dealers in not appear- ing this morning. When I waited upon Mr. Batchelor with that heading, he immediately responded to it, assuring me that just such a movement as this was needed ; that he felt sure it would come to that, and was in hearty sympathy with me in the matter. But he made this remark, that he could not personally appear, neither could members of his firm ; and it must devolve upon oth- ers, if there was to be this presentation to the Legislature. In the additional signing of that, that feeling obtained to a considerable extent, and there seemed to be an indisposition to give personal attention to it, though the feeling was intense with regard to the evil working of the system. I did not feel justified in staying away myself, inasmuch as I had so much to do with getting up the petition. My views were rather fully unfolded one year ago, be- fore the Committee on Labor ; and those views were subsequently presented in " The Brookline Chronicle," a copy of which I have with me. Since then, though I can adduce no particular instance, my convictions on the subject have been strengthened. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Have you any knowledge of, or expe- rience in, the contract convict-labor system? A. I was brought legitimately to the consideration of this ques- tion by my own personal experience. My mind was first drawn to the subject by a fact in my own business experience. Take, for instance, the article of pantaloons. For years I had been en- abled to sell them readily at a fair profit. Suddenly I found that 137 some of my competitors were selling them at a price so low that there could not be a proflt. Then I discovered that large numbers of the garments were made in the House of Correction at South Boston, at the low price of fifteen to eighteen cents a pair. The prices of manufacturing were familiar to me, and I knew, that, with outside free labor, those pantaloons could not be made for less than thirty, forty, or fifty cents a pair. The sale of pants in the mar- ket at lower rates than they had ever been sold before was brought about largely by this reduced price of labor. I feel that this sys- tem is injurious to honest labor ; that it is impairing the chances of those who desire to get a living by honest labor. It is giving the advantage to those who have large capital, and can avail them- selves of this convict-labor ; and it is, in my judgment, tending to the complete blotting-out of the smaller tradesmen, — an injury which I consider a serious one. It has had, I feel sure, a blight- ing effect upon my own trade. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) You speak of the article of pants, is there any other one article in your trade that has been affected in the same manner ? A. Not in my own personal trade, but in the clothing trade. Q. State any thing which you may know as to the effect of convict-labor upon your own trade or free outside labor ? A. Beyond what I have stated, I am not aware that I could suggest any thing with regard to its injurious effect upon my own trade. I have no facts, at least, that I could present to you. Q. When was your attention first called to the manufacture of pants in the House of Correction at South Boston? A. About a year ago. Q. To what extent was the manufacture carried on there ? A. I did not acquaint myself with the extent : it was only the general knowledge of the fact. Q. Do you feel confident in your own mind that the number of pants made there interfered with the trade which you were carrying on in that branch at that time ? A. I did feel sure of that, inasmuch as it gave parties who were accustomed to avail themselves of that labor an opportunity to put pants upon the market at a lower price than others could produce them. Q. State to the Committee the amount produced inside, and the amount outside, so that we may judge of the effect of the former upon the latter ? A. I have no statistics on that point. I think it could be in the power of a single operator in stocks or merchandise to break the price in the market ; and I could conceive, that, though the South Boston institution might not have produced more than a thousand or a hundred pairs of pants, a large operator in the trade could put those pants on the market at half a dollar or a dollar less than others, and the result might be the same as though ten thousand pants were produced in that institution, and the relative amount of work was greatly changed. Mr. Hill. I do not quite see how that would affect the retail trade. Because, if a man buys a certain portion of stock at under price, and sells all articles of that class and grade at a price based 138 on that low rate, it shows simply that he is willing to make a sac- rifice for a trade. Q. (B}' Mr. Morse.) Were you not open at any time to the same method of conducting your business? A. No. The opportunities to avail themselves of this convict- labor are open more fuUj' to those who are possessed of abundant means, and can take large contracts. The small tradesmen could not make it available. I could not possibly avail myself of any such help. Q. I understood you to say that it was not the amount that was manufactured that made the trouble, but the opportunity which it gave a party to advertise that he could sell cheaper goods? A. In breaking the prices, I meant by that. Take a particular kind of shoe, for instance. The fixed price might be a dollar. That might be the prevailing price, or the lowest price. If one man could avail himself of the means of which we speak, and pro- duce those shoes for twenty cents less, he could put upon the market his shoes at ten or twenty cents a pair less than the others, and in that way break the market-price of that one article. Q. Could you place on the market any small quantity of a certain article, and sell at ten or fifteen cents less than the ordinary trade-price, and have that eflfect? A. It might not become universal ; but it would have its effect. The firms of Jordan, Marsh, & Co., and R. H. White & Co., are large dealers in certain staples. If one or the other of those con- cerns could avail themselves of an agency by which they could produce one of those staples at a less price than the other, if one could sell goods at a lower rate than the market-price, the other would have to come down. Q. That, to some extent, would be termed the enterprise of the firm, and the other firm might have the same opportunity open to it to produce the article as cheaply. That is a matter of enter- prise as betvfeen the two. A. I am afraid that I have not the statistics or facts that would meet your wishes. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) At the present time, are goods coming upon the market, in competition with you, from the House of Cor- rection at South Boston ? A. No ; not that I am aware of. It has necessitated a change largelj' in the composition and character of my business. I spoke of this simplj' as one of the blighting efltects which tended to ex- tinguish a branch of my business which was originally encoura- ging. Q. Are you aware that the goods from the South Boston House of Correction are thrown into our market in competition with any- body? A. Only from general hearsaj- : I have no positive knowledge of it. I am aware that pants are being produced there in consid- erable numbers. Q. Were j'ou aware that there they work, to a considerable extent, for parties out of the State ? A. 1 think I was informed of that fact at the previous hear- ing. 139 Q. Do you suppose that those goods for parties outside the State come back on this market from New York and Portland ? A. I would infer that thej"^ did, to some extent, as large pur- chases of goods sold in Boston are made of New- York parties, and, if those New- York firms manufacture at this institution, T presume that some of those garments would coine back. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Is your trade retail ? A. It is now. It was formerly a wholesale and retail boys' clothing establishment ; but latterlj', since the fire, it has resolved itself more into custom trade, making to order, and, to a limited extent, keeping ready-made clothing. Q. You keep nice goods ? A. A better class than is generally made up. Q. Would the class of people who come to j'ou buy these South Boston goods under any circumstances ? A. I infer that they would, from the fact that it has been one of the most difficult things to retain the customers, and keep up the , trade ; and the abandonment of the ready-made clothing for the custom has been made necessary. Customers would say that they could buy pants, and such articles, at lower prices than we could produce them. The trade has drifted away. Q. Do you think that people who buy custom-made clothes would buy those House-of-Correction pants? A. To a considerable extent, owing to .the hardness of the times. Q. It is only during this last year that you had reason to complain ? A. My attention was called to it before. It grew out of the diminishing of that particular branch of the trade, which had been going on for a term of j'ears. Q. These goods are made at the House of Correction by sew- ing-machines : how are they made outside ? A. Partly by sewing-machines, and partly by hand. They are finished by hand. Q. How are they finished at the House of Correction? A. By hand. Q. About the same amount of machine and hand work outside as inside ? A. Yes. Q. Who runs the machines outside ? A. They are run mostly by females. Q. What do they earn ? A. The machine-hands outside average, perhaps, eight to nine dollars a week. Q. You pay them by the week ? A. Yes. We pay sometimes ten or eleven dollars to a female for machine-work. Q. When you were making those pants which are now made at the House of Correction, what did you pay them? A. The machine-operators made from six to ten dollars, ac- cording to their ability. Q. How many pairs of pants would j^ou expect them to make in a week ? 140 A. My connection with that production of late years has been so limited, that I could hardly give a satisfactory answer, because there would not be a continuous running on pants ; there would be pants and coats, &c., and the same operator would engage in work on the different garments ; so that I have never made an estimate of the number that a person might produce in a day. Q. You spoke of the advantage which a concern with capital has over small tradesmen. When it goes to Franklin Street, or anywhere else, to buy its materials, doesn't it have the same ad- vantage over small tradesmen ? A. It would have an advantage if it had good credit and abun- dant means, particularly if it could pay cash. Q. The large dealer always has it, whether he goes to South Boston or to Franklin Street. A. Yes ; but with this difference (which I hope the gentleman will not lose sight of) , that, in Franklin Street, the advantage is only buying possibly at a little lower rate ; but, in the other case, the small tradesman is literally excluded. He cannot avail him- self of this help, while the large operator can. Q. Why is the small dealer excluded? A. In making contracts, it might be necessary for him to obligate himself for a year, or for a given time, and to contract to do something far beyond his means. Therefore he is entirely excluded. Q. Isn't it customary for all clothing-dealers to send out large quantities of clothing to be made throughout the country? A. The large wholesale dealers do. Q. By whom is it made up in the country ? A. By families principally. There has been a change in that respect. A few years ago, this work was distributed over a wide region, and was done generally in families, by hand or sewing- machine, or both. But of late years small factories have been established, where the work is done, instead of being distributed over a wide tract. Persons congregate together to engage in the production of the articles. Q. The help employed in those factories are from the neigh- boring towns and villages ; and couldn't they make those goods as cheap as they are made at South Boston ? A. I have heard of instances, where, in the line of overalls, it has been done. But I think the reason was because it was done in families as a pastime rather than a necessity. Q. Don't you think that a very large portion of the product is made in the waj' of which you speak, — in families where those who do the work are not dependent upon it? A. I think to a large extent ; though I do not imagine it would be more than a fractional part of the whole. ' Q. Suppose that no work was done at South Boston, that no pants were made there by convict-labor, wouldn't they be sent into the country, and made just as cheaply ? A. I doubt very much whether they would. I do not think it would be possible for makers to avail themselves of enough such help for that line of business. Q. If a fractional part is made in South Boston, and a part in the country, where is the balance made? 141 A. In machine-shops, which are located in Boston and else- where. A great many of the manufacturers have workshops of their own, where they turn out large quantities of goods. It is ■ the case with quite a number of manufacturers to have workshops in connection with their places of business. Q. Do you know, from your own knowledge, whether they hire these girls who run these machines, or whether they can produce these pants and other articles as cheaply as at South Boston ? A. I think it would be impossible, inasmuch as the prices paid to these hands would be very much in excess of what would be paid a prisoner at South Boston. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Do you know what is the difference, between the prices of the goods made at your establishment and those made at South Boston, when sold ? A. In one or two particulars there would be a disparity as to the class of goods. Our work is of a better class, so that we can hardly compare the two. Of course ours would naturally be higher, because there is better labor in them. Q. You say that the cheap goods are made there at fifteen to seventeen or eighteen cents, and that the same work would cost fifty cents outside : have j'ou any knowledge of what those goods are sold in the market for ; how much more the prison-goods are sold for than those made by your firm ; or do you use any of those goods? A. I am not aware that we are using precisely the same fabric. Xhey might be a little different class of goods, though of corre- sponding value. The only difference would be in the price of labor, as I have already described. Q. Do you know any thing about the difference between the working-hours inside and outside? A. No, I have not acquainted myself with that. Q. You do not know whether they work longer outside or inside? A. I am not familiar with the hours of labor in the prisons, and could not make comparisons. They work nine to ten hours outside. Q. Do you know that the prison-labor in this business has been the means of reducing the price of any form of labor out- side? A. Most certainly I believe it. But I can state it only from general knowledge. Q. You think, that, during these hard times the last eight or ten years, labor could be hired outside cheap enough to compete with this prison-labor? A. No : I do not think it could. Q. Did I understand you to say that girls made from six to ten dollars a w6ek ? A. That is in running sewing-machines. The wages vary. They may not earn more than from two or three dollars to eight dollars a week. Finishing is job work, — so much for one kind of garment, and so much for another. Q. Have you any real knowledge of your own how this prison contract system has conflicted with labor outside, or reduced the prices of labor of smaller tradesmen or traders ? 142 A. No, only in a general way. Q. Do you know of any remedy? A. Yes : I would propose the following, which I offered at the hearing last winter : — I. In none of the penal institutions of the State shall convicts be employed more than ten working-hours per day, and said em- ployment shall be performed mainly without the use of labor- saving machinery, to the intent that the labor of convicts may be conducted with as little injury as possible to outside or honest labor. II. All contracts for prison-labor shall require the approval or confirmation of a Board of Supervisors, instituted for the purpose of examining into the conditions, and to pass upon the effect, of such contracts upon the special industries to which they relate. III. No contract shall be confirmed by said board of super- visors at lower rates than those paid for outside labor of the same relative quality and worth. IV. A more perfect classification of convicts is recommended, whereby special gifts of genius may be utilized in the production of works of art, in sculpture and in painting, favorable disposals of which may be effected, or a museum or gallery of art be insti- tuted for the exhibition of all creditable works of prisoners. V. It is also recommended that more special attention be given by the State to the use of convicts in tilling the soil (pro- vision being made to this end in securing enlarged areas of farming lands contiguous to penal institutions) , by which service the health and morale of the prisoners may possibly be improved, and which also may contribute largely toward their support. VI. Articles manufactured by convicts shall be legibly marked with the initials of the institution in which they are produced. Q. You spoke of sending work into the country to be done, on account of the competition of the South Boston labor, do you con- sider that any detriment to the State ? A. It hurts a large class of laborers here, and tends to their degradation and misery. In that view of the case, I should say that a serious injury was inflicted upon this community. Q. More than would be offset by the gain to the country- people ? . A. Tenfold. Nov. 6, 10.30 A.M. TESTIMONY OF CHARLES E. MEYER. Chakles E. Metee sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Do you do business in this city? A. Yes. Q. At what place ? A. I am now at 542 "Washington Street. Q. What is your business ? 143 A. My business is the manufacture of gilt and other mould- ings, the manufacture of picture-frames and mirrors, and the sale of engravings, &c. Q. Have you ever had a contract at the Concord Prison ? A. I never had, nor do I wish one. Q. Will you state to the Committee the nature of your busi- ness, the amount carried on by you, and what e£fect, if any, the labor performed in prison has upon it ? A. In order to make that statement so as to show what bear- ing it has upon my business, I should have to go back to the com- mencement of the contract, — to the time when this contract went into operation. At that time I had from twelve to sixteen men, according to the season of the year, laying silver-leaf. Q. ' What contract do you refer to ? A. To the contract of George A. Denham & Co., who have the labor of a hundred or two hundred men at the Prison. When Mr. Denham's contract went into operation, I had from twelve to sixteen men laying silver-leaf, besides nearly as many pol- ishers, who polished black walnut and other mouldings. At the same time, there were employed in the business, in other shops in the city, about a hundred and seventy-five men more, of whom Mr. Denham emploj^ed about a hundred men, Ceppi & Co. about forty, Baker & Co. about twenty, Schcepflin & Co. perhaps eight or ten ; and there were others in various smaller shops, so that the whole aggregate of the workmen emploj'ed in laying silver-leaf, and finishing gilt mouldings, was about two hundred in Boston. And the whole gilt moulding, so far as New England is concerned, is concentrated in Boston almost exclusively. There are small shops in Burlington, in Brattleborough, Springfield, Hartford, and one in New Haven, I believe ; but none of them employ more than three or four workmen. They are merely local afl'airs, and do not enter into the great competition of the market. When Mr. Den- ham went into the State Prison, he immediately began discharging his workmen ; and, as it is possible to teach the more intelligent class of convicts to do the poorer work quicklj'-, it did not take more than two months, before he had dismissed half, or even more, of his workmen. At the same time, the prices of goods sold by him, based on the price of his prison-labor, were so verj' much less than we had been in the habit of getting, that we first had to reduce the price of the labor that we employed, and very soon had to begin to discharge help, because we could not possibly give them living wages ; and we could not, even by cutting them down to the very lowest point, compete with the prices made by George A. Denham & Co. , based upon the price paid by them for prison- labor. When Mr. Denham's shop at Concord was burned, the prisoners were thrown out of employment until the shop was re- built. Then he engaged all his old help in his former shops, and commenced operations again with free labor, and he also had to take back some of our men in order to supply the demand. The shops having been rebuilt, and put in operation in the prison, he again discharged his hands immediately, and relied solely and entirely upon the prison-labor for the supply of what goods he wanted for his customers. The prices declined to such a point as 144 they had never reached before ; and as I have been in this btisi- ness, as salesman or employer, from 1854, and know the history of it pretty well previous to that time, I can say with perfect cer- tainty, that the prices, even now, paid for goods, were never reached before. The prices are lower now than they ever were before we had prison-labor emploj^ed in Massachusetts. It is a fact that higher prices for labor, as well as for goods, are to-day obtained in New York, than can be paid or obtained in Boston. The workmen get better wages to-day in New York, and the goods bring better prices when thej' do not come into competition with the Boston work. Q. Will you state the value of the product heretofore produced outside the prison ? A. I should say that the value of the product outside of the prison, previous to Mr. Denhara's contract, was between three hundred thousand and four hundred thousand dollars. I have no accurate statistics ; but that is my judgment. Q. Can j'ou give the Committee an idea of the amount Mr. Denham produces inside the prison ? A. Of course I can only give it as my judgment. If he em- ploys two hundred men at forty cents a day, that gives each man two dollars and forty cents a week, or a hundred and twenty-five dollars a year. That multiplied by two hundred dollars — I should say it could not be less than from one hundred and fifty thousand to two hundred thousand dollars. I estimated too high for the total product. I think the whole product did not exceed two hundred and fifty thousand dollars before the prison-contract was made. I should estimate the value of Mr. Denham' s product, with a hundred and fifty men, at a hundred and fifty thousand dollars. That is what it should be if he obtained proper prices. Q. The same number of men outside would produce that amount ? A. They would produce a hundred and seventy-five thousand to two hupdred thousand dollars. But I consider that nobody can live beside him. Q. Do you consider the difference in the men? A. I know that I can put a man who knows nothing about the business at work, with an experienced man beside him, and in a fortnight he can polish as well as any, as far as the labor is con- cerned. There is a difference in the better class of gilt mouldings. To make them, a men can be only brought up slowly ; but at the prison now, they are making the highest grades, as well as the lowest. The consequence is, that Denham has thirty thousand or forty thousand dollars' worth of goods on hand, that are good neither for him nor anybody else. They were the probable cause of his failure. He could not obtain even the prices he demanded, because the goods were too bad. The man who engages in this kind of business loses ; the men who are in competition with him lose ; the quality of the goods is lowered ; and the market is vitiated to the last degree. I would not give him to-day, for what he has in his shop, fifty per cent of what he values it at. Q. How, then, can he put his product on the market so as to interfere with you ? 145 -4- It is a common experience, that if there are twenty-five persons who agree to make goods at a certain price, and there is a twenty-sixtia who enters into competition, and sets the price ten per cent lower, tlie other twentj^-five have to follow him. It is a fact of such common experience that it ouglit not to l)e disputed any more. Everybodj' experiences it in every trade. If the prison contractor .sells in a town to one man, and furnishes his goods at ten, fifteen, or twenty per cent less than what the outside manufacturers can make them for, obtaining a fair price, the others have to follow him, or give up the business. Q. Then it is your opinion that the difference in quality be- tween your goods and his makes no difference as to the market- price ?■ A. No. It may make some difference ; but the whole thing makes the business very hard. It creates such a disturbance; it creates so much dissatisfaction ; and, to say it in one word, the whole business gets disorganized. There is no price for any thing after you come into competition with prison-labor, if the contract- or sells on the basis of his contract. They almost all fail in the course of time : they try to swallow too much. Thej- have to take too many men, and have to keep them employed, and sell the goods at any price. The whole thing is the disorganization of the business. Q. . (By Mr. Taylor.) Could you get the price of labor out- side low enough to compete ? A. If j-ou can get a man to support a familj' on two dollars and forty cents a week. Q. They are starvation prices ? A. They are not even that. Most of the men have had to leave Boston. The highest number now in Boston is seventj'-flve to eighty : consequently the City of Boston and the State of Mas- sachusetts loses the product of so much free labor. It loses in the trade the spending of so much money ; and I think the profits de- rived by the tradesmen of the City of Boston from the spendings of a hundred workmen earning fair wages are far more important than the sixteen or eighteen thousand dollars which comes from a hundred and fifty prisoners at two dollars and forty cents a week. It is, in my opinion, the most ill-advised economy that any State can indulge in. It has driven me out of the business. I could not possibly employ men, and have them starve at the benches : 1 could not do it. I employ a few men on the best goods, and pay them fair wages. Q. What wages do you pay your men per day? A. They work by the piece, and can earn ten, twelve, or four- teen dollars a week at the work that I am engaged in. But I only make the finest class of goods. I had to go out of the business, because I could not possibly compete with prison-prices. If I tell j'ou that goods to-day are sold for two cents and a half that I have sold within six years for nine cents, you will understand what eifect it has had upon my business. And now even, when every business almost has recuperated (the price of almost every commodity- has risen from ten to twentj'-five per cent), the ad- vance on gilt mouldings is a pitiful five or seven per cent on the 146 common grade of goods. It is impossible to get the prices higher, on account of this contract. There is only room for a certain num- ber of men. The business is localized here in Boston ; and you may say that the Boston trade is confined to New England, for we have ,no transient trade as in New York. We are totally and en- tirely confined to the New-England market. We sell a few hun- dred feet once in a while that go beyond New England. No matter what the business is, the effect is entirely the same. Q. Do you know the price which Denham & Co. pay for con- vict-labor ? A. That I cannot tell. But I am convinced that of the common work, such as is most made, a prisoner can in a short time learn to make as much as such hands as we employ. Q. That is your opinion. You are not familiar with the amount? A. No. To set it very low, I.should say that a prisoner would, on an average, do four-fifths, certainlj- three-fifths, of the work of a free man. I would allow two-fifths for unwillingness and inex- perience, and all that. Q. If Mr. Denham pays forty cents per diem for each prisoner, for three-fifths of the amount of work which a man does outside, what other advantages has Mr. Denham inside that you do not have outside ? A. Free shop-rent ; and I do not know but he has fuel. Q. Are those all the advantages ? A. No : he has other advantages. He has the advantage of a full supply of labor under all circumstances, — labor that is posi- tively forced to be there. They cannot strike on him, and demand more : they have to work, whether they are willing or not. Q. You stated that the product inside was so very inferior to the product outside, that it came into competition as to quality very largely. Now doesn't Mr. Denham labor under this dis- advantage, — that his product is very poor, and is so because his prisoners cannot make good work ? A. When I stated that, I told you at the same time that it would not take very long for the prisoners to learn to make the common class of work just as well as men outside. Mr. Denham has from the beginning of his prison-contract, as I almost know, from twenty-five to thirty thousand dollars' worth of goods in his shop, which are worth only half-price ; but now the work is better. Men outside at the same work would earn eight or ten dollars a week. Q. Now state what they would earn inside the prison ? A. I do not know what Mr. Denham is paying at present. If he pays forty cents a day, that would be two dollars and forty cents a week ; and we will allow him for disadvantages, say a dollar, which would make three dollars and forty cents a week. Q. Are there other disadvantages ? A. I think they are more than balanced by having free shops and fuel. Q. Doesn't he have to have a large stock on hand constantly? A. Yes, naturally. Why should he engage more hands than he can give work 'to ? 147 Q. Suppose you made a contract for a hundred and fifty men, and were obliged to keep them at work ? A. But I am not obliged to contract for a hundred and fifty men. Q. Suppose he has the contract, and is obliged to keep them at work, doesn't he labor under the disadvantage of having that contract when he has not the work to do ? A. There is exactly where one of the weak points of the system is. You allow a man to make a contract for a hundred and fifty men, which sooner or later will fail him, or disorganize the whole business. When I am in a free shop, I employ as many men as I can give work to : when I am in a prison, and have a hundred and fifty men to begin with, of course I labor under a dis- advantage, if I have not the trade. It is very easy for a man to make a contract for a hundred and fifty men ; but to employ them so that he does not destroy the business, or himself, is different. I have said that a hundred and fifty men outside would average eight dollars a week : that would be twelve hqndred dollars a week, or $60,240 a year. Then a hundred and fiftj' men at the rate of three dollars and a half a week, allowing a dollar and ten cents for losses in prison, would be $27,360 a year. That gives him the advan- •tage of thirty-three thousand dollars. To this must be added shop- rent for a hundred and fifty men, about four thousand dollars — it would cost six thousand dollars. Q. Would you take Mr. Denham's contract? A. Not as a matter of profit, but as a matter of conscience. Q. Would you as a matter of profit ? A. No. Q. Why? A. Because I should have to employ two hundred men under all circumstances, whether I had work for them or not, and the times might be such that I could not do it without ruining myself or others. Q. Is not that the reason why Mr. Denham has failed to ciarry on his work? A. The causes are various. Q. Did you not have the same opportunity that he had ? A. Yes ; I was offered the contract. Q. You state distinctly that you would not take it under any circumstances whatever ? A. I would not take the risk of such a contract. Q. So that, while Mr. Denham may be making mouldings there to interfere with your mouldings outside, and may be making a large profit in so doing, you would not take his contract on any condition, for the profit he makes? A. No. In good times, of course, the working force furnished by the prison would be very advantageous, because you can under- sell everybody, and be sure of sweeping the market. Your work- ing force would cost less than free labor, free labor being naturally higher according to the prices of the goods. In good times you can undersell, and have nothing to do with strikes : you have the lowest possible point of wages to be obtained. In poor times, however, you have to keep the labor equally well employed, sand 148 whether you can sell the product or not : your outlay for material and every thing goes on just the same; The consequence is, that what you mighi have made in good times you are sure to lose in bad, and one will probably balance the other. I know that the damages of one or two years of poor business are sufficient to sweep away the profits of six or eight or ten ; and for this reason I would not take a prison-contract for three prosperous j-ears and one bad one. Q. Then, as a general business, jou. would not, under any cir- cumstances, take a prison-contract? A. I cannot see any aspect, whether as a citizen of the United States, or a business-man pursuing my own business, — I cannot see any aspect from which t could consider the employment of prisoners advantageous either to the State or to the individnal engaged. The final result, I think, is always bankruptcy. We know that human nature is greedj-, and that, if a man can undersell his neighbor, he will do so as long as he can. Those engaged in prison-contracts undersell others in every branch of business, without exception. (By Mr. Taylor.) How is gilt moulding sold? A. By the foot. , Q. What is the difference in the selling-price of a foot of moulding made at Concord, and a fbot made outside? A. There is no difference. Q. Do all bring the same prices? A. Yes. The free labor productions have to come down. Q. Have they come down ? A. Yes. Q. After Mr. Denham had taken the contract at the State Prison, didn't the bad times for the last four years have more to do with the reduction in the prices of your articles in the market than Mr. Denham's contract? A.' No. Q. Tiiere are a hundred and fifty men working in the State Prison : what is the whole number in the State, to your knowl- edge? A. Here in Boston, I should say eighty or ninety outside of the prison. Q. Where are your commodities sold principally ? A. In every town and village through New England and in Boston. Q. Doesn't it extend bej-ond New England? A. Onlj- once in a while — through commission houses. Q. Wheie is Denham's product sold? A. For the most part, in Boston : some of it may go outside. Q. Do j-ou ever purchase any of Mr. Denham's goods? A. Yes. I am compelled to buy of him, because I cannot pro- duce at the same price. Q. What class of goods does he manufacture in the prison ? A. All classes, — black walnut, gilt, imitation rosewood, all kinds. Q. Does he manufacture the same kind of goods that j-ou do ? A. Exactly. 149 Q. To whom besides yourself does he sell these goods ? A. I buy a little of him ; and there are retail stores in Boston hat almost depend ou him for their supply. Q. What is the greatest amount of sales that j-ou have made in one year since you have been in tlie business ? A. Two hundred and forty-eight thousand dollars ; but that included looking-glasses. Q. What was the gilt moulding part? A. I imported that year about a hundred and fifty thousand dollars' worth from New Yorlc. Tliere was very little done in Boston tlien. The business has sprung up here since 1860. Q. A hundred and fifty thousand dollars ? A. That was the purchase-money ; but what I got was a good deal more. Q. How much more? A. Thirty or thirty- three per cent more. That was in war time. Q. What was 3'our sale in mouldings last year? A. No more than ten thousand dollars in mouldings of my own production. Q. About one-fourth what you formerly, sold? A. Yes : less than one-tenth. Q. What is your profit now upon mouldings as compared with j'our profit then ? A. Most of the goods I sell in frames, and the pi'oflt is differ- ent from wholesale profits. If I sold any mouldings at wliolesale, I should have to sell for what they cost me. Q. You made in former times thirty-three per cent on gilt mouldings ? A . Yes — on those I bought in New York. Q. What is your profit now? A. I make only the finest class of goods, and sell almost entirely at retail. But if I made such goods as Denham does, and sold them at retail to those I have to compete with as a retailer, I could make no profit. Q. Is it the amount made annually in prison, or the hard times, that make your profits less? A. I could not employ men at fair wages, and sell the goods for the prices at which Mr. Denham sells, and make a profit : so I stepped out of the business. Q. Will you state to the Committee the cause of j'our leaving your former business, and changing it to the present business? A. It is the decline in prices, so that no profit could be made in the business except a pittance ; and those who are engaged in it have to work to the ver3' verge of starvation. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Will you state that that decline in prices was not caused by hard times? A. Not wholly. Q. What was the main part? A. The prison-labor. Q. The decline in the prices of labor used in making mould- ings was caused by the contract prison-labor in connection with hard times? 150 A. Yes. Q. Do you think that the competition in the prison would have been felt but for hard times ? A. The manufacturers have now issued a card, that, in conse- quence of the higher prices of material, — some of it is fifty per cent more, — they will be obliged to raise their prices. But the increase is only a trifle : it is only five per cent. They cannot go above that, because they cannot move Denham. They cannot make him sell his goods beyond a certain price, because he knows that he has to' keep his prices so that vthe others virtually cannot undersell him, in order to be able to force his product upon the market. He must do a large business, and, in order to do that, he must keep a shade under the others. Q. What per cent does he sell his goods under the market- price ? A. The average price now, I should say, is probably very much the same. The free shops sell very nearly for the same prices. Q. Are the free laborers obtaining a fair compensation ? A. No : they cannot. Q. What do the men earn ? A. They work by the piece, and they have to work their lives out to earn six or seven dollars a week. Q. How many hours a day do they work to earn that ? A. They work from seven a.m. to six p.m., in many cases ■«7ithout dinner. Q. Will you give your opinion as to the amount of the product of gilt moulders, at present, outside of the prison ? ' A. At present prices, I do not believe that it is more than a hundred thousand dollars a year. Q. How many men are there outside now ? A. Eighty-five to ninety. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Then there are more employed now than there were before ? A. A hundred and ten less. Q. Denham employs a hundred and fifty, and the others ninety : that makes two hundred and forty. A. You must take off two-fifths from Denham' s as an allow- ance for prison-labor. Q. (By Mr. Mokse.) Has Denham any stock of goods on hand? A. I think he is selling freely ; but he has old goods on hand. Q. Does he get the market-prices? A. He makes the market-prices. What he says, the others must follow. There is no help for it. They might as well go against a stone wall. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Is the work done inside by Denham done outside by boys and women ? A. No. There is a certain class of work done by apprentices, and a little by women ; but when it comes to an inch and a half or an inch and a quarter mouldings, they have to be done by men. Q. Would half of the work done in prison be done outside by apprentices ? 151 A. No. I should say about a third. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Was the proportion of men and wo- men before this contract the same as now ? A. I should say j-es. There are certain shops which do not employ any women. I never did. Q. Who was the first to employ women and girls ? A. Denham employed women and girls to a large extent, be- cause he was always inclined to undersell. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Couldn't you, if yon saw fit, take a shop, and employ women and boys to manufacture this moulding, and do it as cheaply as he does ? A. No. Q. Have you ever tried the experiment? A. You have to pay women, as well as boys, by the piece ; only, in consideration of their producing an inferior class of work, you pay them twenty or twenty-five per cent less than men. Q. But couldn't you employ them by the piece, and get up your mouldings as cheaply as Denham ? A. No. It is not possible. Q. He did it outside ? A. Yes ; but they cost him more than prisoners. Q. You say he was able to undersell you then? A. I said that he always had the tendency in business to under- sell, and for that reason employed boys and girls. I also stated that you paid boys and girls, for inferior work, from twenty to twenty-five per cent less. The consequence is, that the goods, so far as labor is concerned, cost j'ou that much less. Every work- man gets so much silver-leaf for a hundred feet of moulding ; and, if he does not do the work with it, he has to buy the extra silver. There is no chance to steal any thing. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) What proportion does the labor bear to the finished goods ? A. According to the quality of the goods, — half to quarter. Q. Doesn't the material Mr. Denham uses cost him as much as yours costs you ? A. Very likely.. Q. Then the only advantage he has is in the cheapness of his labor, as regards the production ? A. Yes ; and rent. There is, some six thousand dollars rent to be paid. Ceppi & Boos bought a house on Tyler Street for twenty-five thousand dollars, and it is completely occupied with forty men. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) The building which Mr. Denham occu- pies cost two thousand dollars. Couldn' t you go outside the city and put up a building for the same price ? A. I might be able to do so. Q. He has no advantage over you except in price he pays his men ? He does not have it in rent more than you can have it in rent. He does not have it in material. He only has the ad- vantage over you in the amount he pays his men less than j'ou do. Now, what advantage does he get beyond you, except the cheap- ness of his labor ? A. Another advantage is, that his labor cannot strike for higher prices. 152 Q. Now, will you give the disadvantages? Isn't he compelled to continue his labor, whether he makes an}' profit or not, and to paj- for the men, whether they work or not? A. I must again make the same answer. If I am in a free shop, I discliarge men when I have nothing for them to do. When I am in prison, I must employ them just the same, whether trade is good or bad. That Is part of the viciousness of the system. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) You mentioned just now that your men got a certain amount of silver for a certain length of moulding. Hasn't he the disadvantage, that there is danger that his men will waste it? A. No, not at all. A case where a workman would have to make up a deficiency is almost unknown. Q. What guaranty has he that they will make a certain amount of moulding with a certain amount of silver? A. He has overseers there. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Is there any machinery used in j'our business ? A. No. Q. Do j'ou use any steam-power? A. Yes. Q. How much does it cost to supply that power outside ? A. One-horse power would be, perhaps, seventy-five dollars a year, and for a moulding machine it takes about four-horse power. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) You say he has the advantage in labor ? A. Yes. Q. What other advantage ? A. That his men cannot strike. Q. The first advantage is cheapness of labor ; the second, that the price does not vary ; the third is cheap rent. Is there any other advantage? A. Heat, and perhaps cheapness of steam-power. Q. We will waive steam-power, and oall it even. Now, then, the disadvantages, — the poor quality of the work ? A. No : that is only in the beginning, as in- teaching boys and girls. Q. The accumulation of stock ? A. That is a disadvantage in poor times. , Q. What other disadvantage ? A. I do not know of any. Q. How about transportation ? A. That depends upon the location. Q. We have the prison located. Is not the location of the prison so far from the centre of trade a disadvantage ? A. Yes. Q. Will not that counterbalance the I'ent? A. Yes : I should think it would equalize, it. Q. Then the rent could not be claimed as an advantage? A. I have no adequate means of knowing what arrangements could be made with the railroad for transportation. Q. If you located a shop in Concord, your rent would not be four thousand dollars ? 168 « A. No. Q. Where would _you get j'our workmen ? A. That is exactlj' what I was coming to. I could locate a shop at Concord ; but I could not get anj- workmen. I am forced to be in the citJ^ Q. Could you not take people from the town ? A. No. Q. Why not? A. Because they are not there. Q. Well, take a place like Marblehead, where there are eight hundred or nine hundred workmen? A. I could do that. I do not see that there is a very great advantage, so far as that is concerned, on Denham's side. Q. Then reall^^ the onlj' advantages are in the price paid for the labor, and the fact that the labor does not vary in price ? A. Yes. Q. Now, you have stated that the price of the labor is from a quarter to half the price of the finished product? A. Yes. Q. The labor in prison is about tvvo-thirds of the labor outside ? A. Yes. Q. So that the percentage on the total product is about fifty percent? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Mabsh.) You stated, I think, that this had affected the trade, so that the prices of the goods were materially lower in Boston than in New York ? A. Yes. Q. How much? A. I am not prepared to say exactly. Q. Do you know an^' thing about the product that Mr. Denham gets from his men, anj' more than what you think he ought to get? A. Yes. I heard Mr. Denham's testimonj- as to the amount of product, and, if I am not very much mistaken, he stated from two-thirds to three-flTfths. Q. Can you tell us the percentage at which goods are sold less in Boston than in New York ? A. I have frequently heard it said, that, when New-Yorkers come here and want to sell certain kinds of goods, — they manu- facture certain patterns exclusivelj^, — they have to sell on the Boston basis. But I hear that they obtain in New York, say five or ten per cent more. . Q. Why doesn't Denham go to New York and sell his goods, instead of selling them so low in Boston ? A. There is the transportation, and he would have to keep a store there. Q. Why will not the dealers in New York buy of Denham, when they can, goods for five or ten per cent less? A. If he was there drumming all the time, perhaps he could get the trade ; but what he could sell would hardly pay the ex- penses. Then there is another thing. In our business, the taste differs widely in the two cities. He would have to make an en- tirely different kind of goods for New York. 154 Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Would it not be worth while for him to do that? A. The extra expense would more than make up the difference. Q. Why do New- York parties come here ? A. They come once in a while when they have new patterns. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Is it not true, that, if a man wants to have a picture framed, he can have it done cheaper in Broadway than in Washington Street? A. Oh, no ! Q. I have tried it, and I know it. A. It must be based on a want of knowledge of the kind of goods that you buy. Mr. Hill. I can assure you that there is a great difference in prices. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Don't they manufacture as well as in Boston ? A. He cannot tell whether it is imitation or genuine. Q. Doesn't Denham make as good work as you do in the same class of goods ? A. He makes very good mouldings now ; but I should not want to offer them to my retail customers, because they would not be good enough for that trade. Q. Then they do not come into competition with what you make? A. I know. But, if I were engaged in the business the same as the other manufacturers, I should be in direct competition. Q. With whose manufactured goods do his goods come in contact ? A. Ceppi & Boos, and the Co-operative Company. Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, whether or not they complain of Denham's product? A. Oh, yes ! Q. Taking all the advantages and the disadvantages which Mr. Denham has, you yet state that j-ou would not take the con- tract and conduct the business as a matter of profit, as he does ? A. No. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Were you offered this contract? A. Yes. Q. When was that? A. When Denham was negotiating, or had completed his con- tract. Q. Then it was not the present contract ? A. No. Q. At the time that Denham & Co. received this contract, you were offered a contract for a certain number of men in the CharLes- town prison ? A. Yes. ■ Q. By whom? A. Through a third party whom I employed at that time. Q. Employed for what ? A. To And out about this matter,, and see whether such a con- tract was in existence or not. This gentleman went to Charles- town, and saw Mr. Chamberlain. I also myself saw Mr. Brastow ; 155 and I think it was he who said that I could have a contract, if I wanted it, at the same price. Mr. Chamberlain sent word to that effect. Q. Why were j'ou emplo3'ing this gentleman you speak of, — this third party ? A. Because we could not find out whether the contract was in existence, or going to be signed, or how the affair stood. Q. Why did you want to find out? A. Because we wanted to protest against it. Q. Do you know that the warden advertised for six weeks in five leading papers ? A. I have been told ; but I am not much of a reader of adver- tisements. Q. (B}'^ Mr. Morse.) You stated that you saw Mr. Brastow and the warden, and that they offered you the contract ? A. Yes. Q. Why did you not take it? A. I had two reasons. In the first place, I was elected, some- what as a spokesman for the gilders and employers, to organize an opposition to this contract. Of course, it would not be very nice for me to take it then. That was one reason. Another reason why I did not want it was because I really think it is doing wrong to those who are engaged in business. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Did you think there was any money in it? A. Yes : we all thought so. Q. Did you not say just now that you would not take it as a matter of conscience or of profit? A. Since then, I have studied the matter, and have come to the conclusion, that, looking at it from all sides, the system is pernicious. Q. (Bj' Mr. MoESK.) You are the agent of the association of gilt moulders ? A. I was at that time. Q. That was one reason why you did not take the contract ? A. Yes. Q. Did you refuse it because you did not think you could make any money ? A. At that time I thought Denham was going to make himself a rich man. Q. But since, you have found that he has not made money, and you would not take the contract because you do not think you could make any money at it? A. I would not take it with all the chances. He is the leader in setting the prices. Q. You had the same chance ; and why didn't you take it? A. He is forced to be the leader. At that time, it was a matter of honor, because I was engaged on the other side to oppose the contract. Q. If not, would you have taken the contract ? A. No : I don't think I should. Q. And you would not, because the profits for a series of years would not be sufficient to enable you to see your way clear ? A. That is as I look at it now. 156 Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Have you any reason to believe that this contract was offered yoa to silence the opposition? A. That is the way we looked at it at that time ; but we might have been mistaken. Mr. Hill. What was the object of advertising, then? Mr. Litchman. This was a private contract. Q. (By Mr. Mouse.) During the existence of the advertise- ments, _you had a right to make an offer? A. Yes ; but I did not see the advertisements. Q. After that, j'ou were offered the labor on the same terms that he had it ? A. Yes. Q. Was your combination of gilt moulders for the sake of keeping prices up ? A. It was for the purpose of opposing this contract. Q. AVhy was that? A. Because everybody saw ruination in it for himself. Q. As the agent for this association, whj- couldn't you have taken this contract for the association, and conducted the business as well as Mr. Denham ? A. I should have had a hundred and fifty or two hundred part- ners ; and, with a hundred and flftj' partners to do the work, I do not think the business would have amounted to much. Q. Wouldn't it have been for the interest of j'ourself and j-our associates to take it, rather than to let him have it? A. I will tell you how far we have gone. We have debated the question, whether it would not be better to let ever^' man pay so much a week from his wages, and let the prisoners lie idle, rather than have Denham take the contract. Q. You would do that on the assumption that you were making so much profit that you could afford it ? A. The bosses and workmen could do it with profit to them- selves now. Q. Had not he and you the same rights in that regard ? A. Yes, as a matter of right. Q. Then your association was made for the purpose of keeping the price of mouldings up ; and, because he went in and sold underneath you, 3-ou were bound to oppose him for so doing? A. No : you misstate it. We all of us labored for an exist- ence ; and every workman who belonged to that association worked for the bread and house-room for his family. Q. Before tliat time, you were making thirtj'-three and a third per cent profit? A. No. That was at the time I was importing mouldings from New York, — in war times. Q. Was it not at the same time that he took this contract that you were making thirty-three and a third per cent? A. No. We made about twenty per cent, — a common busi- ness profit at that time. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Was this association a trades-union in the ordinary sense? A. No. A few of us heard that Denham had made a contract for forty cents a daj', for a hundred and flftj' or more prisoners. 157 One or two or three who knew me asked me if I would not be kind enough to come to a certain place that evening, and discuss the matter. The}- invited all the workmen, and they came to- gether in Turner's Hall to talk about the matter of this contract. I was chosen chairmam. and was elected one of a committee of three to inquire whether such a contract really had been made. But we could not find out anj- thing more about it. It had been made privately, and we could not find out any thing. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Was the contract offered to you by Mr. Brastow entered into by Mr. Denham before that, or not ? A. I do not know whether it was signed, sealed, and delivered, or was then in contemplation. After I had made a great many efforts, 1 finally got at the root of the contract, — that it was for forty cents a day. The contract which was offered me was not Denham's ; but I was offered a certain number of men on the same terrns. Q. Was Denham under contract at the time that there were five advertisements for another contract? Was there an additional contract to be given out that was offered to you ? A. He was already at that time working on the benches at the State Prison. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) What year was that? A. The eiid of 1877. His contract began then. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) What was the first intimation that you and the gilt moulders had that a contract existed ? A. We heard that Denham had made a contract for a hundred or more men at the State Prison, and that he had already begun, operations. Q. What indications were there of that? A. I do not know, unless it leaked out of Denham's shop in some way. Q. You followed the investigation up, and found there was a contract ? A. Yes. Q. And then you were offered a similar contract? A. Yes. Q. Not Denham's? A. No. His was already signed, sealed, and delivered. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) For how long a time? A. One year, with the option of four years longer. Q. Did not that contract expire within a few months? A. It maj' have expired, if Denham gave notice that he did not want the extension. Q. It is a fact, is it not, that this contract was advertised in several papers for several weeks ? A. I was told so. Q. You did not know it at the time ? A. No. Q. Mr. Denham did ? A. I do not know. Q. You would not bid under that advertisement? A. No. Q. You could have done so ? 168 A. Yes ; if I had known any thing about the advertisement. Q. Whose fault was it that you did not ? Was it the warden's fault, that, while he was advertising this labor, you did not know it? A. Of course not. I am not here as a complainant. Q. You did not know of the advertisement? A. No. I did not know of it at the time. Q. And therefore you put in no bid ; but, if you had known of it, you would have had the opportunity to put in a bid ? A. No : I do not think I should. Q. It would have been open to you to do it? A. Yes. Q. That was before the meeting of which you speak ? A. Yes. Q,. That meeting was not called because this contract had been advertised, was it? A. No, but because some of the workmen had learned in some way that Denham was sending benches and mouldings to the Charlestown prison. Q. That meeting was not called because of the advertising of the labor of those hundred and fifty men ? A. No. Q. You were not under any obligations of honor, when that advertisement was in the papers, to prevent j'^ou from taking that contract, if you had known any thing about it ? A. They were not advertised especlallj' as being intended to be engaged on gilt mouldings. I have been offered the contract half a dozen times by Mr. Skillings ; but I would not take it. I would not bear the odium of it. Q. Then your affiliations with this association are so close, that you would not take it ? ' A. I have not set one foot into their meeting-room, nor had a word of any conversation on this subject with any workman, since I stepped out of the committee-room here. I have nothing to do with any trade-union. Q. Your natural feeling is, that you would not take a prison- contract ? A. I would not take it. Q. Your associations in your past life have been such as to bring you up to the point where you would not take a contract, even if it offered a large profit ? A. I know almost every workman in Boston in this trade. I know that their bread and butter has been largely abridged by this contract ; and knowing all these men personally, and their situa- tions, knowing the effect this work has had upon them and their families, I would not take this contract for an^^ consideration. Q. Any gentleman not associated with them so closely enjoyed the right to go in and take the contract, and put the stuff upon the market? A. Of course anybody has the right to take the contract who is so minded. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) This was a temporary association to protest against this contract, and when that was done it dis- solved ? 169 A. Yes. It was a very simple, innocent affair, just to oppose this contract, because the workmen thought it would be their ruin. Nov. 7, 10.30 A.M. TESTIMONY OF BENJAMIjST :E. COLE. Benjamin E. Cole sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morsk.) You do business in Boston? A. Yes. Q. Where is your business located? A. Our store is at 85 Pearl Street ; our factory, in the country. Q. What is your business ? A. Wholesale boot and shoe business. Q. Have you at the present time, or have you had at any time heretofore, any contracts with any of the prisons of the State, for manufacturing boots and shoes? A. We have had. Q. Will j-ou state when your contract existed ? A. If agreeable to the Committee, I will state just what my experience has been all through. I let myself, when I was twenty j-ears old, to go to the House of Eeformation at South Boston to take care of the boys manufacturing shoes. After I had been with Mr. Masury a j'ear and a half, he made a proposition to me to go into business with him. I was with him two years, and then I bought him out, and continued his contract. A year or two after that, I formed a connection with Mr. Gilmore ; but I have always been the one who has had charge of the work at the prison. I continued, after I went in with Mr. Masurj-, to have charge of the work of the boj's ; so that I had about three years' and a half per- sonal experience with the bo^'s, every day. We continued that contract for some eight or nine years. The latter part of the time, we made a contract with the State, for the labor of a portion of the bo3's at Westborough. We continued with them about eight years, and then we made a contract with the city of Boston, for the Deer Island boys. We had that two years, and then made a con- tract with the State Reform School to manufacture shoes bj' the pair, which we continued some four or five years. During that time I had general charge of the factory ; but, after the first three years and a half, I was not there every day. At South Boston I used to go every morning, and at Westborough about once a week. Q. From your experience and knowledge of prison-contracts, what would be your opinion with regard to the effect of the product of the prisons upon the general industries of the State? A. I do not think it comes in material competition with outside labor. The price of the labor is less ; but there are a good many pnll-backs. In the first place, you are obliged to use better stock to produce the same shoe with prison-labor than you would with out- side labor. Those who are familiar with the state of trade know that there is a great demand for cheap goods. In order to get cheap goods, you have to work cheap stock. If you put cheap stock into a prison of that kind, it requires more skill and care to 160 work it through, and make a smooth-looking shoe, than if it was good. If j-ou got one shoe in six that j-ou had to sell for dam- aged goods, it would carry the price of the others so high, that j'ou could make thorn cheaper outside. My idea was, that I never would put stock into a pi-isoii-coiitract but what I was morally cer- tain the convict could make a good shoe out of, if he felt like it. If lie did not, I felt like reporting him. But if the stock was poor, which happened sometimes, I never had the heart to report the man, unless I knew bej-ond question that he could have done better if he had chosen. In order to feel that certainty, and in order to avoid getting damaged shoes, we were obliged to work considerably better stock to get the same shoe that we had manu- factured outside. After all, we got a good raan^' damaged shoes. If a convict, in making his goods, damages them, he will fre- quently hide the shoe, and, when he goes to the water-closet, throw it down there. When they clean out the place, they fish up basket- ful after basketful of damaged stock. Then we never could get a case of shoes through. Shoes come sixty, one hundred and twenty, and one hundred and fort3' pairs to the case. Outside we put out a case, and have it made right through ; inside we could never do that, because some of the shoes would be damaged : therefore we sent stock to the institution without regard to cases, and, after it came back, we selected the perfect shoes, and did the best we could with the others. Then, again, our trade has come to be very notional. It is almost impossible to get an idea of what will be called for. You may make your shop full of goods, and put sevent3'-flve thousand cases into the store ; j'ou may make what you think will satisfy' every man, then begin to take j-our orders, and my experience is, that not half of them can be filled from the goods on hand. Though it may amount to precisely the same shoe, and though the value may be the same, yet they will want some little change in regard to the finish, or something else, so that j'ou cannot use what j'ou have on hand. With a convict contract you have XX) keep .your convicts at work. They will not allow ^-ou to let them lie idle, because they are always in mischief when they are out of work. It requires two men to take care of a shopful of boys where they are idle, when one could do it if the}- were em- ployed. Q. Will j-ou state any other disadvantages which the contract- ors labor under, after which I shall ask you to state the advan- tages, so that we can see the difference. A. The}' destroj' a good many more tools, a good many more lasts. It used to cost us double for lasts manufacturing inside compared with what it would cost outside. On shoes where the sole is tacked on, they generally drive the tack the whole length, whether the last is new or old. It costs more for tools, and more for lasts. Then, again, at the present time, the larger part of the work on a shoe is done by machines. It requires skill, care, and an interest in the work, to run a machine ; and my experience is, that bu.t very few of the convicts will ever take interest enough, or give attention enough, to learn to run a machine to advantage Therefore, when we manufactured there, we used to do a good many parts by hand that we would have done bj' machinery out- 161 side. My experience has been with boj'S ranging from twelve to eighteen years of age. We employed women in the House of Correction for a short time to bind shoes, and that was the ooly experience I ever had with adult convicts. In mj' experience I learned that you will find, out of ten boys, one or two who will take an interest in their work, and you can rely on them to pro- duce good work day after day, and they do not need much watch- i(ig ; but the balance of them will make the work just as bad as you will take it. They have to be watched all the time, and the cost of overseers is quite an item in the expense of running a prison-contract. Q. What portion of a day's work do these boys do as com- pared with the work of boys outside? Is that a disadvantage? A. The State or the city furnished one overseer, and we another. We would say, Here is a boy for whom we would call a certain number of shoes a fair day's work. That would be deter- mined upon in „ consultation between the State or city^ overseer and our own. I used to tell the overseers, that, if a boy worked straight along for four hours, — six was the time, — I would call that a day's work. I never calculated to put the number that he should do full up to what he could do, or what I would expect of an outside workman. On the shoes that we made, we called fifteen a day's work, and'I have seen boys make forty. Q. Is fifteen a day's work for a boy outside? A. No : for these boys. When a boy got up to \^at we called a "full" boj', — and some never reached that point, — that was as high as we ever put the work. That was all children's sewed shoes ; and we used to call seven pairs and a half a daj''s work. Q. What would you expect a boy outside to do at the same work ? A. We never made just that shoe to any large extent outside, and when we did we put them out, and had them made by the pair outside the factory, so that I do not know just what they did. do ; but I should judge that a youngster outside, working ten hours, would be expected to make twelve or fifteen pairs. Some of them would make twenty. These boys worked six hours a day, and went to school six. Q. There is the disadvantage of having poor stock on hand, that you would have to dispose of at a low price ? A. Yes, always. Q. What per cent of damaged shoes would you have in a given time, that you would have to sell for a very low price ? A: That would be a pretty diflacult question to answer. There would be a good many circumstances that would enter into the question. Let the city or the St9.te put in a poor overseer, who will not maintain order among the boys, and the work will run down in a week, so that it will not be worth half-price. The same is true of the contractor's own overseer. It depends a good deal upon the material you have in your overseers and the material you have in your convicts. They vary a good deal in that respect. Then, of course, you have the question, of capital invested : it is a matter which goes into the cost of production. Q. Yes. But that would not vary materially from the capital needed outside, unless you accumulS'ted goods? 162 A. When the panic came, in 1857, we had, in February, a hundred and eighty thousand pairs of those shoes that we had to make at "Westfleld. Q. If you have mentioned all the disadvantages, will you give the advantages. Which the prison-contractor has over the employer of free labor? A. I do not think his work would cost him quite so much, though I do not think there is near so much difference in his favor at present as when we manufactured, because there are a great many more machines used now than then, and the cost of making a shoe is not more than half, probably not half. It is not half, not to reckon royalty on the machine, that it was fifteen or twenty years ago. Q. You are manufacturing boots and shoes at the present time? A. Yes. Q. Are you familiar with the advantages which a contractor has at the present time in manufacturing boots and shoes by convict- labor ? A. I know what they pay, and know what thej' produce, by the contract ; and I have been solicited a number of times, within three or four years, to bid on contracts ; but I would not take the best prison-contract in the country to-day. Q. 'Will you state the reason ? A. I do not believe there would be enough saved on the price of the labor to offset the increased cost of the stock which you would have to give, and the bother and trouble. There is twice as much annoyance in prison-work as in outside work. I do not think there would be enough saved on prices of labor to offset the risk you run in carrying at certain seasons a great many goods without any orders. The stock costs extra ; and I have no doubt, judging from my experience, that, if you put in machines, it would cost double to keep them in running order. I think there would be enough drawbacks in that direction to offset all that you would save ■ on the lessened cost of your labor. Q. The materials that you would put in would cost as much as what you used outside, and all the advantage you would have would be the low price of labor? A. The material would cost more. Q. In j-our judgment, there are disadvantages which would overcome the advantages of having convict-labor at the price to be paid? A. Yes. They offered us a hundred and fifty men in the House of Correction, if we would keep them at work, and not pay a cent for them. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) When was that? A. That was the dull time, I think, succeeding the panic of 1857. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) From your knowledge and experience of the boot and shoe trade, would you at this time, if offered you, take the contract of a hundred or a hundred and fifty men, at fifty cents a day, with an expectation of making a profit? A. No. 163 Q. From your knowledge and experience, what is the effect of the convict contract system upon the reformation of the prisoners ? A. I think that it is absolutely essential for any reformation of convicts to have them employed ; whether they are employed by contractors or others, I do not think would make much difference. The convicts are always under the control of the overseers fur- nished by the State or the city. But those boys or young men when they are out of work are into some mischief. It is almost impossible to keep them still, particularly the smartest of them. An active mind must be employed to be satisfied. We used to have our stock prepared in Beverly, and sent up prepared, to South Boston, when we manufactured there. It used to come by express three times a week. Sometimes, in case of a storm, there might be a delay, and the boys would get out of stock. The overseer always complained that it was so much more difficult to keep the boys in order ; and very frequently in a long storm, when they were out of work a long time, they got up some plot to get out, or something of the kind. Q. Being familiar with the contract system, what other system, if any, would you recommend as its substitute in our penal insti- tutions ? A. My opinion would be that you cannot improve on the con- tract system ; but I would be very particular who the contractors were. I would not let men or boj's to any one who was going in there to see how much work he could squeeze out, and how much money he could make. I would make a contract with no man but a man of character, standing, and principle ; and then I do not think there would be any trouble. I think they would work just as well under contract, and it would be just as favorable to the convicts, as if the State or city employed them. But I can con- ceive that you might get an unprincipled man in there who would do injustice to the convicts, and the influence would be bad. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Would you be kind enough to state how long since your contracts expired ? A. The last one that we had was with the State Reform School in Maine. There we did not hire the boys for so much a day, and provide our own overseers : we furnished the stock, and they fur- nished the overseers, and they had so much a pair for the number of shoes made, and paid for the damaged ones. We did that three or four years, and that contract closed, I should think, four or five years ago. Q. Which of those two systems, in j'our judgment, was the better one ? A. For us, I like making by the pair best, because it required but' very little personal oversight. Q. You have had no experience in connection with making machine shoes in prison? A. No. Q. It is all hand- work that you have made ? A. Yes. Q. Will you state whether, in your judgment, the market would be likely to be unfavorably aflected by the accumulation of stock being forced upon the market ? 164 A. That would depend, I should think, very much upon the man in whose hands the accumulation was. There are always more or less reckless men in the business who will sell without regard to cost or, creditors. Perhaps, in that case, it might aflfect the market somewhat ; but yet I do not think there could be an accumulation suflSciently large to have any general effect upon the market. Q. Suppose the accumulation of stock was in one particular line of goods, would it not break down the market-price for it? A. I do not think you could accumulate enough of any particu- lar line to have much effect : it might a little. Q. We will take five thousand cases of men's coarse boots. A man comes on the market at the commencement of the trade, and sells them at a certain price : would not that, in the natural order of things, fix the price at which those goods should be sold during that trade ? A. I do not think five thousand cases would have any effect. The demand would be in one fall a good many hundred thousand cases. Q. Doesn't a wholesale dealer quote favorable prices made at the beginning of the season ? A. Yes ; if the prices are from a legitimate house. Q. Are you aware of any evil effect on the shoe trade, of prison-made goods? A. I do not think there is. Q. Will you be kind enough to state the grade of goods that you manufacture and deal in ? A. We are running four factories at present. We make at Beverly women's and misses' kid, goat, calf, serge, fox ; at Farm- ington, N.H., we make wax brogans, wax plough-shoes, pegged calf brogans ; at Berlin, we make in the summer season, for spring trade, men's, boys', and youths' calf, buff, and split goods ; in the fall we make the same thing on women's. Q. That comprises the line of goods you make? A. Yes. Q. There are none of the kind that you make made in the State Prison ? A. The women's split and the men's buff, I think. Q. You feel no effect of the prison-work on this particular line ? A. No. Q. You feel that you can make them as cheap, oY how ? A. We change our factories almost every year. We had a factory at Abington, two years ago, for men's work such as Blan- chard made at the State Prison. Q. Why did you discontinue making them ? A. We thought we could do better on something else. Q, Were the goods sold so cheaply on the market that there was no margin of profit? A. I never thought that convict-labor injured us at all, or came in competition with us. Q. Have you ever met the goods produced at Albany ? A. Yes : I have seen them. Q. You have had no competition with them? 165 A. That is a lower grade of shoes than we have usually made. I have not seen them for two or three years. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Have you seen the Lawrence shoes? A. They are substantially the same as we make at Beverly ; but there is a little difference. Q. Have you ever made them in competition? A. I do not kuow that I have. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) You have had some experience at the State Reform School in Maine with what may be called piece-work ; that is, you furnished the stock, and they made the shoes them- selves, without any oversight on your part ? A. Yes. Q. You said, that, on the whole, that worked well ? A. We did not get as good results as we did when we fur- nished our own overseer, whom we could control, though thej' had more damaged stock to pay for. Q. Would it be practicable, under the contract system, to have all the work done inside, under the entire supervision of the prison authorities ? A. If you had a practical man at the head of it, and good over- seers, it would. But I never yet saw a man who would keep the work up where it should be, without my dinging him all the time ; and I do not know why an overseer the State would employ should do any better than ours did. If the official over him had no knowledge whether the work was what'it ought to be, or not, and could not tell him where he failed, I do not know that he could do any better than our foremen. Q. One objection to the contract system is, that it introduces a class of oflScials who are not prison officials. I do not know whether, in your judgment, it would be practicable to have all this work done by the piece, under the supervision of the officers, and dispense altogether with outside overseers. A. I think it would be practicable ; and yet I do not think you would get quite so good results as though you had a contractor who understood his business, and could force his overseers up when they were a little remiss. Q. You think, that, if it were one of the terms of a proposed contract, parties would be prepared to bid ? A. I think they would. It, however, leaves room open for a little question. We had a certain number of shoes made, and they were the standard. We used to pay for every thing that came up to that, and every thing that did not we did not pay for. You would be obliged to adopt some system of that kind in any contract. The men who turned out the goods would always think they were up to the sample, while you might think they were not. It leaves a chance for a controversy, which frequently arises under your contract. Q. Is there not more or less friction under any contract? A. In our experience we never had the least particle of trouble during the whole time. If I could riot satisfy an overseer, or if my men could not satisfy an overseer, that a convict could do more, or might have done his work better, I did not want any action taken in regard to it. Sometimes, on the other hand, when I .used 166 to think that the overseer employed by the State thought that he might have done better, I would not say any thing about it. We always worked along without the least jar or friction, — every man that we employed for twenty years. Q. Have you ever seen any ill effects upon prison discipline from the contract system as carried on under overseers ? A. No. The discipline is entirely in the hands of the over- seers employed by the State or city. Q. Yes. But do not outside parties have a certain charge of the men, even though thej' cannot punish them ? < A. Yes. Q. Have you seen any ill effect from that personal contact? A. No, I never did. Q. Do they still make by the piece in the Maine Eeform School? A. No. I do not think there have been any shoes made there since we gave up. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Were your contracts profitable? A. Like all our manufacturing, sometimes they were, and some- times they were not. Q. You have had no experience in the State Prison as con- tractor ? A. No. Q. Nor in the employment of adult labor, except the employ- ment of women in binding shoes, — an obsolete employment at present ? A. No. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Doesn't prison-labor conflict with small manufacturers who employ eight or ten men? A. There is no,t a ghost of a chance for a man to live and do a wholesale business, employing only ten men. In order to produce goods cheaply, you must have many men, and certain machinery. A small concern might make custom shoes ; but it could do nothing in competition for Western or Southern business. Q. _ I mean this market. A. I do not think he would come into competition with goods made in prison. Q. The reason I asked that question was, that I was of the opinion that a good many of the goods were put on the market here. When I was in the clothing business, we used to buy of a man who had prison-labor, and we could buy cheaper by two or three dollars a case from him. If a man could do that in the shoe business, would it not conflict with the class of labor of which I speak ? A. To show the Committee the difference between manufactur- ing twenty years ago and now, I will say, that twenty years ago, at our factory in Beverly, we made a woman's shoe, and the prices for bottoming ranged from twenty to twenty-five cents. Now, to say nothing about royalties, we make a machine-sewed shoe for twelve cents and a half. It is a higher grade shoe, and has a heel, where the other had none, and has a finished shank, whereas the shank of the other was plain. Q. As labor is one of the great promoters of reformation, what 167 do you think of eraploj-ing the labor of our prisons without using this machinery that you speak of? A. They could not pay the price that they pay for prison-labor, and manufacture without machinery. ' Q. As a question of reformation? A. So far as reformation is concerned, that would answer the purpose as well. Q. And there would be less conflict witfi outside labor ? A. Thej' could not make them so cheap, even if they paid only twenty-five cents a daj'. Q. You think, that, if machinery were removed, the reforma- tion of the convicts would not suffer in any way ? A. Not in the least. Q. You think that there would not be so strong a competition with outside labor as now ? A. There would not be any at all. Not only would not the discipline and reformation suffer, but I think it would be an im- provement, because 3'ou could keep better discipline where you did not have the noise of the machines. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) "What was your price while you were employing convict-labor? A. We paid for six hours' daily work different prices, ranging from ten to sixteen cents a day. Then we had three months' ap- prenticeship for nothing. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Do you think it would be practicable to have the oflScers of the prison take charge of the manufacturing of boots and shoes, and other products of prisons? A. I think it might be fairly successful. I do not think you would get as good work. If you had a warden who understood the manufacture of boots and shoes, so that he could tell the fore- man that so-and-so was not right, &c., as I would tell my men, you would get as good work by the prison officers as by any con- tractor. But, if you hire an overseer who understands the work, my experience is, that he never would keep the thing up where it ought to be, unless he was pushed up. Q. Whether, in the case of our warden at Concord, he could attend to any manufacturing matter besides maintaining control of his prison ? Wouldn't it be as much as any man of ordinarj' abili- ty could do to give his attention to prison affairs, without looking after a manufactory? A. Yes : it would at a place where they have so many con- victs as at Concord. Q. In view of that fact, it would not be any advantage to have the prison oflScers under him take charge of the manufacturing, above the contract system, so called. Would it be any advantage to the State, or for the reformation of the convicts, to have the oflScers under the warden take charge of the manufacturing rather than continue the present system? A. I do not think it would, from a pecuniary point of view, or in its influence upon the prisoners, if you have good contractors, and they are careful to put in suitable, competent men as over- seers. Q. (By Mr. Maksh.) Which do you think would make the 168 more serious competition in tlie market, — convict-labor in the hands of contractors, or in the hands of the State authorities ? A. Public affairs are so managed, that I should think the greater damage would be inflicted by the State. If a set of men got together and voted to sell those goods, they would have to be sold ; but a contractor who meant to pay his debts would try to get all he could. I believe a man works better for himself than for anybodj' else. Q. Then yon would as soon compete with the contractor as with the State or county ? A. If you could arrange that the goods should not be sold for less than they cost, with a fair price for the men, I would not be afraid of them. The trouble with the State would be the same as with manufacturing companies. There never has been a shoe- manufacturing company in the State that has not failed. Q. Do you think the State could manufacture in its State Prison economically? A. I do not. Q. (By Mr. Tatlor.) If they would sell their goods in open market, would there be any injustice to the State, or to the trade ? A. I do not think there would. Q. (By Mr. Litohman.) It is your opinion, then, that the convicts should be employed as a means of reformation ? A. Most decidedly. Q. But that the question of reformation is not afltected by the contract system more than by any other system ? A. Not where you get good contractors and overseers. Q. That, so long as the convict labors, the system under which he labors is not so material as the fact that he should labor ? A. If I were an ofllcer of a prison, I would not make a con- tract, unless the contract provided that no overseer should go in of whom I did not approve. Q. (By Mr. Moese.) Under that system, you think the contract system would be better than any other? A. Yes. "We never had that clause in our contracts ; but we always did the thing conscientiously. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Your contracts were mostly with boys : for how long a term were the boys sentenced ? A, They were sentenced, under the control of the directors, until they were twenty-one. The boys were divided into first, second, third, and fourth classes, and occupied positions in those classes according to their conduct. They used to have constant applications from different individuals for boys to learn trades ; and when a boy got into the first class, and the directors thought he would behave himself, they used to indenture him until he was twenty-one. Q. "Was that the way at South Boston? A. Yes. The system was the same : in fact, the superintendent at "Westfield went there from South Boston. Q. (By Mr. Litchmak.) Have you, in your business-relations, heard of any complaint of the employment of convict-labor in the manufacture of boots and shoes? A. No ; I do not think I have. 169 Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Do you know that there was a petition signed last winter by a large number of persons in your trade ? A. I know that there was one circulated. It was brought into our store to be signed, and I suppose it was carried on through the trade., I think a good many have the impression that it is an injury to the trade ; but I never could see it, and I do not feel so. As I said before, I would not take the best j)rison-contract off any man's hands to-day that I know of. Nov. 11, 10.30 A.M. TESTIMONY OF GEORGE A. DENHAM. Geoege a. Denham sworn. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Do j'ou do business in Boston? A. Yes ; at 98 Hanover Street. Q. What is your business ? A. Manufacturer of walnut and gilt mouldings. Q. How long have you been in business ? A. Seven years. Q. Where is your manufacturing establishment ? A. We have been in Boston, East Boston, and East Cambridge, during the seven years. We are now manufacturing at Concord. Q. How many men did you employ in the first year or two that you were in business ? A. In the first two years, I should think our average number would be from twenty-five to thirtj'-flve men. Q. Were they mostly boys and girls, or men ? A. Mostly boys, a few men, and no girls at that time. Later on, in 1876, I employed from twenty to twenty-five girls. Q. In addition ? A. In addition to the boys and men. Q. What was your product at that time ? A. Our average yearly production during the first three years would be, I should say, forty thousand to fifty thousand dollars. Q. What number of men, so far as you know, were engaged in that specialty at that time in Massachusetts? A. At the time that I began business, all told, exclusive of my own men, there were perhaps thirty : I should say not over forty. Q. What was the annual product of those forty, so far as your knowledge goes ? A. Perhaps fifty thousand or sixty thousand dollars. Q. Then your product was nearly equal to that of all other manufacturers ? A. Yes. Q. Have you ever had a contract with any institution for con- vict-labor? A. Nothing previous to the one made for the convicts at the State Prison a year ago last July. Q. The labor of how many convicts did you contract for? A. I contracted for a hundred. Q. What was the price paid ? 170 A. For the first year, forty cents per day ; the remaining four years of the contract, fifty cents. Q. Your contract for five years ? A. Yes. Previous to July we made a preliminary trial to satisfy ourselves and the warden that the work could be done in the prison. That was just previous to leaving the old prison ; but we could not get a contract then, because all contracts were to be annulled until • after removal. We kept the men from idleness, and had a chance to experiment without charge. Q. During this term of giving instruction to the convicts in your trade, you paid nothing? A. Our contract reads that we shall have each new man six weeks -free of expense, for the purpose of instruction. Q. What was the product of the convicts, after you made a contract for them ? A. Our production from the prison, for the year ending the first of July, was, I think, nearly seventy-five thousand dollars. That is the total amount of manufactured goods produced. Q. Do you sell your goods by the foot, or yard? A. By the foot. Q. When you were outside manufacturing, what did j'ou calcu- late your production cost you per foot? A. That question I could hardly answer, as our prices ranged from perhaps a cent a foot to sixty and seventy-five cents a foot. Q. Since you have been employing prison-labor, what has been the cost per foot, so far as j'Ou know, as compared with the cost outside ? A. From the general results, I should say that the cost of manufacturing in the prison with the convicts will come very nearly, if not quite', up to the cost of manufacturing outside. We are obliged to have in the prison, in addition to the prisoners, a number of expensive men, — instructors, whom we are obliged to pay large wages to. Those men do no work themselves. Q. How many instructors have you in prison ? A. We have now six. Q. Would you require this number of instructors if you were doing business outside ? A. No. Q. So that that is an increased expenditure which is necessary on account of your emploj'ing convict-labor? A. Yes. I should say, that, with very near the same number outside, we employed but one foreman ; while now we employ six Q. Do you pay any rent at the prison ? A. No. Q. Do you pay for heating ? A. No ; except our proportion with other contractors. The expense of power and heat for the work-shops is estimated by an expert, and we pay our proportion. Q. What is the expense of the transportation of your material to the prison and back? A. It' will average a hundred and forty to a hundred and fifty dollars per month. Q. The. materials which you use, both wood and gold-leaf, 171 cost precisely as much for your work in the prison as they did out- side? A. Yes. Q, Besides the cost of transportation, heating, and additional instructors, what other expenses are you put to in consequence of employing convicts? A. We are at the expense of tobacco for them. Each one of the prisoners has a piece of tobacco once a week ; and it is customary, where we have faithful men who work for our interests, to give them occasionally small amounts of fruit. The amount to each man is small in itself ; but, taking a hundred men, in a year it amounts to a large item. We are at a good deal of expense to buy things for them. They have accounts with the clerk at the prison, where they have money that their friends leave to buy- little things for the manufacture of fancy boxes and such articles. The warden allows us, where they have this money, to buy these things, and leave them in the guard-room ; and considerable time is taken up in that way. Q. Was there considerable expense in fitting up the rooms for the purposes of your trade ? A. I think the cost of our machinerj'' and other articles was in the neighborhood of three thousand dollars. We have been obliged to fit up there twice. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) Were you burned out once? A. Yes : in the first fire. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Were you under the necessity of paying for the convicts while they were idle ? A. No. Q. What portion of a day's work will a prisoner perform as compared with a person outside in the same business ? A. According to the kind of men that we have. They will vary some. But, as close as I can get at it, we have thought two-thirds of a day's work, — two-thirds to three-fifths. It will vary accord- ing to the class of men that we have. If we have a good class," they will do nicely. Q. You spoke of having the- men, when they first came in, a limited time before you paid for them : what time did you state that was ? A. Six weeks. Q. During this time they are under the charge of the instruct- or, and require. his time and attention? A. Altogether. Q. What is the average number of new convicts that come in monthly ? A. According to the expiration of the sentences of the men we have ; new men come on our contract from three to ten per month. We have had a large number of new men, as a great many sentences have run out. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Are the men whom you discharge ex- pert workmen whom you have been to the trouble of instructing ? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Mokse.) Where are your goods sold ? A. From Canada, through all the New-England States, New 172 York, Pennsylvania, and Maryland. Nothing west of 'New York, or south of Maryland. Q. What is the proportion that you sell in Massachusetts ? A. At present, our Massachusetts sales, I should say, would be half of our total production. Q. What is the effect of your sales in Massachusetts on the product of outside manufacturers? What is your price as com- pared with the prices of products made outside the prison? A. I can hardly testtfy in regard to that with any degree of certainty ; but, so far as my knowledge goes, our'prices, as a rule, are higher than the general run of our competitors. Some get more than we do, because our goods are prison-made ; but there are a number of our competitors who manufacture in Massachu- setts, and who come into Massachusetts from the West, who sell very much lower than we ever sell, than we can afford to sell, — or think we can afford. Q. Is the same line of goods manufactured outside ? A. Yes. Q. How are your prices as compared with the same grades of goods outside ? A. Our prices will average equal to any, and in a number of cases we get better prices. Q. Then what is the effect of your sales upon the sales of par- ties outside? A. I think it has very little, if any, effect in regard to prices. Q. What effect has your gross product in the prison upon the gross product manufactured outside ? A. I think it has but very little effect. We produce no more in amount than we produced when we were employing outside workmen. Q. Is the amount produced in prison and outside greater than it was when you commenced business ? A. The amount produced in Massachusetts is larger than it was when I commenced business ; I should say very nearly double, if not quite double, what it was in 1872. Q. Has there been any increase in the demand for your articles ? A. Yes. Q. Has the product more than kept pace with the increased demand ? A. I think it has, the same as it has in most manufactured goods. When I began, there were but three concerns of anj' size in Boston engaged in this business. At present there are seven different companies manufacturing these goods, against three, or possibly four, in 1872. Q. Would the increase of production naturally tend to decrease the prices of the product? A. Very much. I claitn that that is the principal cause of the low prices at which we are now selling. Q. It is not in consequence of your production in prison that the prices are lower ? A. The prices of goods to-day are very nearly the same that they were a year and a half ago, before we took our contract at 173 the prison. The change in prices as compared with the general change in prices outside has been very slight. I contend that our contract and the employment of prisoners has lowered the prices scarcely any. The difference between the prices in April, 1878, and the prices we are getting now, is very slight indeed, — scarcely perceptible. In fact, to-day we are getting better prices than in April, 1878. Q. From the time you entered into the business until you made a contract, was there a decrease? - A. No material change. On some few articles where there was sharp competition, there was a slight change. Q. Has there been any special change, since you entered into the contract for prison-labor, in the prices of products in your line? A. No : there has been no special change. Q. What were your annual profits when you were manufacturing outside, and had no prison-labor? A. Our profits were about ten per cent net on our sales. Q. What are your profits upon your prison-contract goods ? A. That I can hardly give any fair reply to, because we have been unfortunate in regard to fire there. We have had one fire there, and one at East Cambridge ; so that I could not estimate the profit. We were not insured on what we lost in prison. Our losses last year were such that we could not rnake a fair estimate as if there had been no fire ; but my idea is, that our profit is not in excess of ten per cent on sales. If any thing, I should say, that considering the cost of instructing prisoners, and the inferior quality of goods, the percentage would be less than ten per cent last year. Q. Is there a larger waste by prisoners than there would be outside ? A. Yes. Q. Is that your own loss ? A. Yes. Q. What weekly wages would j'our girls and boys average out- side before you went into the contract? A. We took our contract in July, 1878 : in November, 1877, I averaged our pay-roll, and it was a dollar and forty cents a daj'. In March previous to the time of taking the contract, there had been two general reductions of prices by all the manufacturers in the city ; and the average pay-roll, either the first or the middle of March, was but little in excess of ninety cents a day against a dol- lar and forty cents the previous November. That was in March, and we took our contract in the April following. There has been since then no reduction, I believe, outside. Q. What first induced you to offer a proposal for prison-labor? A. I had a friend who was in the Tucker Manufacturing Com- pany, and he asked me if I did not think I could employ prison- labor profitably. The expense of making the change was so great, that I disliked to make it. We made, with the other manufac- turers, a reduction in January, 1878 ; and in February we made a number of large contracts, dependent upon the prices we paid for stock and labor at that time. The number of men who are em- ployed in this business is limited, and, unless we can get our men 174 to work, we sometimes have difficulty in filling our orders. These men became aware that we had large contracts, and they struck for an increase of twenty per cent. At that time, the advertise- ment had been put in the papers for the employment of prisoners, and, according to the advice of my friend, I made application to the warden for a hundred men ; that is, I made the bid, and it iwas with the idea of avoiding these strikes whenever we had large contracts. Q. Did the workmen have an association by which they could combine to strike?. A. I believe there was a Silver Gilders' Union, though I do not know it of my own knowledge. Q. To some extent, at least, your attention was drawn to this by the fact that they struck on you several times ? A. Yes. I know it to be a fact now, though I did not know it then. Q. How long was this advertisement in the papers, and in how many papers ? A. It was in most of the Boston papers, — "The Herald," "Journal," "Advertiser," and "Post," "The Springfield Ee- publican," " The Lowell Courier," and I think two or three other papers. It was advertised in different sections of the State, I know, verj' generally. In the testimony before the Committee on Labor, I had a list of the names, and I know those were a part of the list. The advertisement appeared in different papers for certainly three weeks, and I think six weeks. Q, Other parties were at liberty to make proposals'? A. It was free to anybody who wanted to make an offer at anj' price. I think the Waring Hat Company, who are now manufac- turing at the prison, answered the advertisement at the same time we did, and obtained their contract at the same meeting of the inspectors as ours. Q. Your contract was made by the prison inspectors ? A. Yes. Q. I understood you to say that it was for five vears ? A. Yes. Q. Was there any clause by which you could give it up before that time ? A. There was a three-months' clause inserted for either party. Q. From your knowledge and experience, what is the effect of the labor of manufacturing gilt mouldings upon the reformation of the convicts ? A. I think the same effect that any labor has upon people who are idle. If they have nothing to do, they are inclined to vicious habits. They desire employment themselves. After the Are, they were idle. Some were employed in rebuilding the old buildings ; but a large number were obliged to lie idle : and I know that I was called repeatedly by the different prisoners to their cells to know how soon they could get back to work. They could not lie in their cells in idleness, and they begged of me to intercede with the warden or officers to get them taken out of their cells, and put to work. Q. In performing their work, have they always appeared to be quite willing to do so ? 175 A. Yes, as a rule. "We Have, of course, in a hundred men, as we would have outside, some bad characters ; but the average of the men there at the prison will produce fewer such men than we would find in men we have employed for five or six years out- side. As a rule, they take a great deal of interest in their work, and, if they produce a very good moulding, they are anxious that the contractor or instructor should see it. Q. Can the convicts, when discharged, obtain work outside at the same trade? A. Yes. A number of the men who have worked for me I have had letters from, and they have obtained employment. A number of them are employed at the West, and some at the South. Two of them I think I know of as being employed in Rochester, one in Chicago, and I think there is one who had employment in Baltimore. I do not keep the run of them ; but these I know of. Q. They could obtain employment if they felt disposed ? A. Yes.. , Of course, laboring men, as a rule, if they knew of a man having been a convict, might refuse to work with him. That is not the prisoner's fault, if he is desirous of obtaining work. Q. Who sets the task of the men, if they have any? A. The warden, if there is any task set. If the men think they are doing too much work, they have a chance to apply to the warden and the commissioners for relief. Q. If thej- refuse to perform their duty, what authority have your instructors over them ? A. No authority at all. If there is a question between an in- structor and a prisoner in regard to the quality or amount of labor, the instructor has a right to decide as to the quality ; but the question of amount is referred to the oflBcer of the room, and thence to the warden or deputy. Q. Are there many who have refused to perform their daily task? A. I think in the last six months in our shops, we have re- ported less than six men. Q. "^ou report them to the officer of the shop ? A. Yes ; and he reports to the warden or deputy warden. Q. What punishment, if any, do they get? A. If the warden decides that the contractor or instructor is correct in his demands, and that the prisoner is able, and should do the amount of work that is required of him, he has a chance to do the work, or be placed in solitary confinement. The prisoner is not placed there until he has absolutely refused. ' Q. What length of time is he in solitary? A. The longest that I have ever known any of my men to serve has been six days ; from that down to one day. Unless he is known to be vicious or hardened, he receives a light sentence ; and, when he says he will do the work, he is allowed to come out. Q. Is there anj' effort made by your instructors to give them moral instruction ? A.. No, I do npt know that there is. — nothing beyond the quality and quantity of the work ; that is all the business they have. But the instructors we have there are forbidden to swear at the 176 men, or to use profane language of any kind. Beyond the quality and the quantity of the work, the instructors are supposed to have nothing to say to the prisoners. Besides the men in prison, we have- a force of men outside to whom we give employment. We have a factory in East Cambridge, and a store-room and office in Hanover Street. In Hanover Street we employ from seven to twelve men ; in East Cambridge, — these are men who draw good wages, clerks, salesmen at shippers', — at East Cambridge we em- ploy, according to the season, fifteen to thirty men. Those men are skilled workmen, that we pay good wages to. Q. What is your production outside as compared with inside? A. The work that we do outside is done in connection with that at the prison. In East Cambridge we take the lumber that we buy, and strip it up into mouldings. They are shipped to the prison,' and finished in the different methods. This contract at the prison gives emploj'ment to these outside men. If we gave up our contract at the prison, we would probably give up our business altogether. > Q. How many men would that throw out of employment? A. At present we are employing thirty-five men, — clerks and mechanics. We have at the prison, I think, now, a hundred and four men. Q. So that the work of these thirty men outside is dependent upon the work which you have to do in the prison ? A. Yes, so far as we are concerned. Q. (By Mr. Eeed.) Have you ever given any emploj-ment outside to anj"^ men who have worked for you in the prison ? A. Yes : I have employed at different times three of the men who came from there, until they obtained employment at their own business. Q. Have you ever had many applications from discharged convicts ? A. We have. But the business that we teach them in the prison is different from the manufacture we carry on outside. The part that we do outside has relation either to machinery or to clerical labor : in the prison they have the hand-work in finishing the mouldings after the machine-work. But we have given a num- ber of them letters of introduction, where we have known them to be faithful men, who were in prison, perhaps through carelessness, or some slight fault, — we have given them letters of introduction to parties at the West, where they have obtained employment. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) All the mouldings that are taken to the prison are got out at j-our factory outside ? A. Yes. Q. And, for the purpose of producing this, j'ou have to have quite a quantity of machinery? A. Yes. Q. What is the character of the lumber which you put into the mill? A. Pine and walnut ; and it comes in the form of boards and planks. We have nothing thicker than an inch and a quarter. Q. (By Mr. Taylok.) You say that you employ a hundred and four men at the prison ? 177 A. Yes. Q. By employing those hundred and four, you keep thirty-five men employed outside? A. Yes. Q. How many are there employed on gilt mouldings in the city of Boston at the present time ? A. It will be mere guess-work ; but my impression is, that there are possibly a hundred to a hundred and twenty men and boys outside, mostly boys : I think the average age will run under twenty -five. I found one difficulty that I had in my business out- side, — the boys, after learning the trade, were not inclined to stick to it : they would go into something that would pay them better. A number of boys who worked in East Boston went West, and got employment as gilders, and then went into some- thing else. Q. This gilt-moulding business is a kind of special business? A. Yes. Q. It is confined to a few people in the United States? A. I should judge, that, in the whole United States, there are not twenty firms in the business. . Q. How does the work done in the prison compare with the work done outside ? A. Very favorably ; perhaps not quite equal to that done out- side. We have some men there who do as good work as any outside. Q. Are you compelled to put goods upon the market at cheaper rates ? A. No, we have not been yet ; and we endeavor to manufacture in such a way, that our supply shall be only equal to the demand of our regular customers. Q. But, if they were not up to the standard of the goods out- side, would j-ou get as good a price? A. The standard outside is according to the people who manu- facture. There are several grades of moulding. There are some in New York who make a very fine class of goods, and from that it would run down to the inferior grades which are made in New York and the West. It is according to the class of trade that we sell to. If we have an inferior quality of goods, there is always the trade that will take it. We endeavor to put men on only such qualities of goods as they are able to make, and which will sell, and make a return to us. Men who show good talent we advance to good work, and so far, we have been able to keep up to the prices of our competitors. Q. You emploj' as many as all the manufacturers outside? A. Very nearlj'. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) The product of j-our work is naturally limited, as the demand for articles of luxury is limited. It is not possible in the United States for a large number of men to work at this business ? A. No, not a great many, Q. (By Mr. Hill.) The advertising j'ou refer to was done before you made any contract at all ? A. Yes : I think the advertising was done through February and March, 1878. 178 Q. Is that what called your attention to the matter? A. I saw it in the paper ; but my attention had been called to it before by this gentleman who formerly was in the Tucker Manu- facturing Companj'. A number of contractors who were employ- ing men at Charlestown had notified the warden that they would not go to Concord ; and the men they had formerly employed were to be let. Q. You were approached, then, only by the advertisement? A. Yes ; so far as the warden and the prison-oflBcers were con- cerned. We went to them in answer to the advertisement, though the advertisement was called to my attention by a gentleman out- side. Q. Has there been a subsequent advertising? A. Yes ; in August and September. Q. Do you know whether there was any response to that? A. Yes ; I think they had three or four bids. Q. How did the bids range ? A. From forty to fifty cents. Q. Were any of them taken? A. Yes ; Mr. Skillings's bid was accepted, — for fifty cents. Q. Is he carrying on the business now ? A. Yes. Q. Under the new contract? A. Yes. Q. Your contract expired? A. Yes, by notification. Mr. Skillings is carrying on the busi- ness for the benefit of the creditors, the State, and the partners. Q. He made the best offer to the second advertisement? A. Yes ; I should judge so. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Will you be kind enough to state the number of men there were employed in this business in Boston at the time this contract was made ? A. I should say there were a hundred and thirty to a hundred and forty men. Those were all the gilders in Boston. Q. How large a part of that number did you employ ? , A. Fifty, I think. Our men ranged from fifty to sixty, and sometimes as high as seventy. Q. How many is the total number you have employed in the prison under your contract? A,. We had at one time an extra set of men when we had out- ride something like fifty men ; but that was an extra occasion. Q. I mean convicts. A. The largest number has been a hundred and forty-six or a hundred and forty-seven. Q. What was the average price of j-our labor at the time of your taking this contract ? ^. Nipety cents was the average price we paid the men, boys, and girls. iQ. ipid yff\^ not testify before the Labor Committee that it was & c(plla;r ajijd seyen-tenths of a cent? A. As I stated to Mr. Morse, I come without preparation, and [ am only saying this from memory. At the time I testified before that committee, I had the figures before me. 179 Mr. LiTCHMAN. As a matter of fact, it was a dollar and seven- tenths of a cent. Q. Was your contract a private contract with the warden ? A. Not at all. It was made to the inspectors, and accepted by them. Q. Will you state what your first bid was? A. There was a preliminary talk with the warden in regard to the prices he would expect, and we intimated that we felt willing to pay thirty-five and forty-five cents. He told us he thought that that bid would not be accepted, or that the State would not deem it to its interest to accept so low an offer. He told me that the Waring Hat Company would take the men at a better price, and that, if we wanted the men, we would have- to bid higher than we proposed to do. There was nothing more said, and we made our off'er at forty and fifty cents. Q. Do you remember how long after your offer was made that your contract was closed? A. We had a letter from the warden the day following the meeting of the inspectors, stating that they had accepted our bid. Q. Can you fix the date nearer ? A. I cannot from memory. Q. How did the wages that you paid in 1878, previous to taking the contract, compare with the wages of other manufacturers? A. I should judge they were the same, though we had no dif- ficulty in getting all the men we wanted. Q. What time was the fire that you speak of ? — the first fire in the prison. A. I think July 19. Q. Where was your work done while the buildings were being rebuilt ? A. We had still in our emploj' a number of men who had worked for us at 98 Hanover Street. We continued them, and increased the number there, and kept them at work from July to the first of Januarj', even after we had renewed the employment of convicts. Q. When you got the shops in working-order, were they not discharged ? A. I have just said that we employed them to the first of Janu- ary. We kept the full force to the first of December, and then, our trade beginning to drop off, we gradually discharged them until the first of January ; but our pay-roll began at Concord the latter part of September, or the first of October. Q. When the fire occurred at Concord, wasn't your force increased at 98 Hanover Street because of that fire ? A. We were obliged to increase them in order to fill our orders. Q. The point I want to get at is this, — by reason of the fire, you were obliged to let the convicts lie idle, and employ outside help, and, when you resumed work, your outside men were dis- charged, and not after? A. We continued outside as long as possible, and we had to keep our convicts at work, for whom we were paying. I think the point that you are making is the discharge of McGrath, He was 180 a good man, but was addicted to liquor, and was discharged on that account. Q. Now, will you state the total amount of your product at the State Prison ? A. For the last year, I think some seventy-five thousand dollars. Q. What, in your judgment, is the total amount of the gilt moulders in Massachusetts ? A. Possibly a hundred thousand dollars exclusive of my own. Q. So that 3'our product in prison is very nearly the same as all outside ? A. Yes. Q. Don't you think that that product has some effect on the market-price of goods? A. We carry on three branches complete. Our competitors make a specialty of preparing mouldings for gilding, walnut mouldings alone, or gilding alone : we carry on these three things together. Q. You have already testified that substantially the work you get in the prison is as good as that outside : now about the quan- tity, how will it compare ? A. From two-thirds to three-fourths. Q. How long will it take a man to become suflflciently expert in prison to do the work done outside? A. I should say that the prisoners will learn, on the average, as quick as outside men. Q. Will j'ou state what advantages you have by reason of your contract ? A. Taking the contract through, and considering the advan- tages and the disadvantages, the advantages are very slight. One advantage is, that we are not verj^ much troubled by strikes. Q. Was not that the excuse for your action which you made at the other hearing? A. Yes. Another advantage is the permanence of the help. Another is the fact that you can go and find every man that you employ at work. There is no chance for drunkenness, though we did have difficulty with one man once. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) What did he drink ? A. We had alcohol mixed with shellac, which had not been doctored. He scraped some lime from his cell, and precipitated the shellac, and so got a couple of tablespoonfuls of alcohol, which he diluted with water, and got drunk on. But it made him vio- lently sick. Q. You have the advantage of the permanence of the help : is that all the advantage? A. That is all the actual advantage we have. At the time we took the contract, we thought we were going to make money by hiring men at forty and fifty cents a day against a dollar outside. Q. You have an advantage in the price of the labor being but half as much ? A. I think those are the only actual advantages in the prison. Q. Don't you have an advantage on free rent? A. The free rent is made up by the expense of transportation to Concord, and the fact that we pay a very high price for power and heating. 181 Q. Do you have to pay for heating ? A. We pay our proportion of the expense. Q. State whether or not your failure was caused by your con- tract directly or indirectly ? A. The fact of the failure has been published by the news- papers ; but it was a question between the managing partner at Concord and myself. Our contract was running behind, and we were not producing the goods we ought to be from the labor and the material. It was a question between him and myself in re- gard to the management of the contract. He was a man who managed things very poorly, and the contract was losing day by daj'. I had a man who was a good manager, and had had a great deal of experience, and in connection with Mr. Munroe, my other partner, I put him in. That caused ill feeling, which finally be- came so bad, that we were obliged to dissolve the partnership. Our contract required three months' notice before it could be re- voked. Matters were in such a shape that it was impossible to continue longer, and the affairs were placed in the hands of Mr. Skillings as trustee to do the best he could. Q. Then your contract had no eft'ect? A. Our contract as it was running was a losing contract. Q. That is hardly an answer. What I want to get at is whether your contract was profitable to you or not. A. It was not. Q. Was it by reason of the contract itself, or the manage- ment? A. That we are trying to get at now. Q. Was there an accumulation of goods under your contract? A. Yes ; in the summer months, — as there would have been if we were employing men outside in the summer months. That accumulation we are selling now. Q. Doesn't the fact that you have reduced prices of labor give you the power to fix the prices of goods ? A. I think not. Q. Do you think it is possible for any other parties to under- sell you? A. I know that they do. Q. On exactly the same goods? A. Exactly the same. . Whether they can do that profitably or not, I do not know ; but it is an actual fact that a number of lines are being sold cheaper in Boston. Q. Don't you seU goods to other manufacturers? A. We sell some of the goods that we manufacture at the prison to others. Q. Is it because they cannot produce as cheaply as you ? A. No. Q. Do yon know why they buy, if they could manufacture cheaper ? A. These parties do not manufacture mouldings prepared for gilding themselves. I do not recall to mind that we have sold any goods to manufacturers in three or six months, that were gild- ed. The preparation of mouldings for gilding is one of the branches our competitors in gilding do not carry on. Those who gild do not prepare mouldings. That we do sell, to some extent. 182 Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Is that work of preparation done inside, or outside, the prison ? A. Mostly outside ; though the finishing ready for gilding is done inside. Q. (By Mr. Tatloe.) You say your contract was not profita- ble? A. Yes. Q. Is Mr. Skillings trustee of your estate? A. Yes. Q. Is he a personal friend of yours? A. No : he was a perfect stranger to me up to the time of the trusteeship. Q. What surprises me is, that Mr. SkiUings has bid for prison- labor for the same kind of business, knowing that you did not make it succeed. A. He bid for the estate as trustee, not as an individual. Notice was given to the State the first of July that we would not require the use of the convicts after the first of October. When that time came, things were in such a state, that he thought, that, by continuing the contract, he might be able to dispose of the whole business ; and the contract was extended to the first of January. Q. I do not see how the estate could be benefited by a contract that was unprofitable. Mr. Hill. Mr. Skillings represents the creditors, and is acting for them. Mr. Taylor. But Mr. Denham says that he gave up this busi- ness, and Mr. Skillings took a new contract ; and now Mr. Den- ham says that Mr. Skillings took the contract for the estate. Witness. It was a continuation of the business to get as much as he can for the creditors. The three months from October to January are the most profitable months in the year. We have a large amount of stock, — manufactured, and in process of manufac- ture, — that Mr. Skillings thought should be finished and disposed of. He had every thing in good running shape, and it would be less ex- pense to the estate to continue to manufacture and dispose of these goods than to stop work. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) Mr. Skillings, I suppose, sold you lum- ber? A. Yes : he was the largest creditor at the time of the disso- lution. Q. (By Mr. Mokse.) Speaking of conducting business out- side, and discharging men — you did at all times in the duU season discharge and hire help as you wanted it ?• A, Yes. During July and August we ran with a very small number of men, and again in January and February, reducing as low as eight or ten men in the workshop. When the busy season came on, we hired men as we needed them, until we had our shops full. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) You have stated that you had em- ployed, previous to your taking the contract, fifty men in the work that is now done in the prison ? A. Yes. Q. And you now have a hundred and four men, and have had a hundred and forty-six, employed? 183 A. Yes. Q. Is not that an addition of tliat class of labor to the gilt- moulding trade? Suppose a prisoner is two-thirds of an outside man, it would be an increase of the men employed in that branch? Q. (By Mr. Hill.) With your experience of prison-contra,cts, are you ready to go ahead and do business on your own account? Would you take a prison-contract ? A. I think at present as much money can be made outside as in prison. If the price of labor should advance, and a person could get a contract at present rates, he would probably do better in prison. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Will you state the prices of your productions as compared with the prices four or five months ago ? A. The prices have been advanced within six weeks. Q. How much per cent? A. From five to as high as twenty per cent. Q. Goods you make in prison ? A. Yes. Perhaps an average advance of ten per cent beyond what we were selling at in the spring and summer. Q. Does the average advance justify any great advance in the price of labor? A. I think the advance in prices has come from the advance of labor in New York and the advance in material ; but I think there has been no perceptible advance in the pay of gilders. Q. Do you think that these men wlio are employed in prison, this extra hundred men, could possibly get work in Boston after they got out? ^ A. There probably would be a feeling against them. Q. Do you believe that a hundred men from New York could get work here? A. No : there is not business enough. Q. Do you suppose sixty-six could? A. No. Q. Then it is not altogether owing to the fact that these men would be convicts ? A. They would have the same difficulty in getting work that all men would. Q. But in this particular industry they could not get work? A. I think a good many of them would have a better chance to get work than some who are working at it now, — as men and as workmen. Q. Do you think that labor at ninety cents a day is an induce- ment to a man ? A. You must bear in mind that that is the average for men, boys, and girls. The experts we employ there, if employed outside, would earn from eight to twelve doUars a week, some of them as high as fifteen dollars a week. Q. Those cases are rare ? A. I do not think that in our whole contract we have more than half a dozen men who would earn fifteen dollars a week. The greater part of this work is done by boys and girls. The boys and girls have worked at this industry many years, and the number has not increased. 184 Q. When did you first begin to employ boys and girls ? A. I have employed boys since. I have been in the business. Q. But as a general thing ? A. About a year after I began. The workmen were mostly Germans, and I, being a Yankee, had difficulty in getting them. I would send to New York for good men, and, as fast as they came, the Geimans manufacturing here would pick out my best men. To overcome that difficulty, I started in a number of apprentices. Q. Were you the first man who ever employed boys and girls in this trade ? A. No. Q. (By Mr. Morse.) Boys and girls have been employed for many years ? A. Yes. In Rochester a man has been employing them for ten years. Q. (By Mr. LiTCHMAN.) But in Boston? A. The others employed boys ; but I, doing a larger business, employed more. Their proportion was probably as great as mine. Q. You employed as much help as all the others ? A Yes. Q. Now state the proportion of boys and girls ? A. Just previous to obtaining the contract, three-fourths of the hands were boys and girls. Q. Was the strike you complain of among the boys and girls ? A. Yes. Nov. 12, 10.30 A.M. TESTIMONY OF HORATIO G. HERRICK. Horatio G. Herrick sworn. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) What is your occupation? A. A lawyer, originally. Q. What position do j'ou hold in connection with the prisons of the county of Essex? A. I am sheriff, keeper of the jail, and master of the house of correction at Lawrence. Q. Have you been connected with the jail for any length of time? A. Since January, 1866. Q. , What is the work that is carried on there ? A. At the present time, the manufacture of shoes. Q. Any thing else ? A. No ^-except what may be incidental to the running of the prison. No other manufacture. Q. Is the manufacture of shoes carried on by contract ? A. Yes. Q. Please state to the Committee the terms of the contract, and all pertaining to it? A. The contract is made by the county commissioners. I had nothing to do with making it ; but I understand the contract to be the hiring of not less than seventy, menj ' at fifteen cents per day per man; the contractor to. furnish all overseers and instructors, 185 and pay all incidental expenses ; the county to be at no expense, not even for tobacco. Q. How many men have you employed now in that industry ? A. Just now, substantially none. The work has been sus- pended four or five or six weeks ; but the contract is about to start up again. He has been paying all along for the men. Probably by Monday of next week, he says, he will have the men employed who are to be employed. He took the contract from another party, and I do not know but it has been renewed since he bought out the other contractor. The contract was to employ seventy men ; but it was verbally understood afterwards that he would employ all the men that were in the prison unemployed about prison-work. He has ranged from seventy up to a hundred and ten, a hundred and fifteen, or a hundred and twenty men ; so that I think, that, for the year or year and a half prior to his suspend- ing work, he employed, a good portion of the time, a hundred men, and always over his seventy. In relation to the expenses of the contract I should say, that, some time within a year, we had a large number of men — more than there was room for — in the main shop. We had another shop that used to be used for baskets when the county worked on its own account, and he had some few men out there. He said then, that, if the county would pay for the overseer, he would employ thirty or forty men more than could be employed in the main shop. He has employed anywhere from twenty-five to thirty-five men for several months, the county paying a dollar and a half a day for an overseer. That was be-- cause those men were over and above his contract, and there was not room in the main shop for more than eighty or ninety men. Q. Who is the contractor? A. A. J. Tilton of HaverhiU, Q. Who made the contract on the part of the prison ? A. The county commissioners. Q. Have you the contract with you ? A. No. Q. Can we get that contract? A. I have no doubt that you could get a copy of it by applying to the county commissioners. Q. How long has the contract system been carried on there ? A. Since I have been there, — except for an interim of two or three years, when we undertook to make baskets on the county account. Q. Then you have an opportunity of studying the contract- system ? A. So far as can be under the circumstances there, I have. Q. State to the Committee, from your experience and knowl- edge, the eflfect of the contract system as compared with the pub- lic-account system, or any other ? A. 1 think it would vary very much with the character of the prison population. For the State Prison, where there is a large number of men, and the sentences are long, and the character of the inmates of a certain kind, I should give one answer, probably, if I had been familiar with such an institution ; but it would be different with an institution like ours, where the sentences vary 186 from thirty days to three or four years, — though a very few of the latter, — averaging, a year or two ago, about four months. Very few of them have trades, such as carpenters, painters, or shoemakers, most of them being laborers or operatives. With that kind of prison population, with that variety of sentences, I do not know of any other system that can be profitable, useful, or feasible. That is my judgment. Of course, I mean to connect with that reply a proviso that there shall be proper care and oversight on the part of those whose duty it is, — of the contractors and overseers. The master should have the right to say that an}' im- proper overseer or instructor should be discharged at any time. I would alwaj-s have that condition in every contract, so that no contractor should ride over men without anybody being able to say a word until his contract expired. I did, during the last year, discharge one instructor. I told him he could not come into the prison again. Q. Your opinion, from your experience, is that the contract system is the best? A. For such an institution as I am connected with. Q. How many prisoners are there at your institution now ? A. We averaged the past year two hundred : we have this morning a bundled and ninety to a hundred and ninety-five. Q. The average during the jear was two hundred ? A. Yes : an increase of daily average of fifteen over the year before. - Q. What were the prisoners doing during the last six weeks, while the contractor was not working? A. Just nothing at all; diacoptented, unhappy, anxious to go to work for employment and for the sake of their tobacco. Q. They are not supplied with tobacco when they are not at work ? A. No. They are supplied at the discretion of the contractor, but are liable to have it cut oflf when an improper use of it is made in their cells. Q. How many men does the contractor employ as overseers or instructors ? A. He has had but one overseer in the main shop : he is a man who was an officer in the institution. He has varied as to the number of instructors he has employed. When he began, there were five or six, and they were not simply instructors, but men he put in to look after his work. But he got down to two or three. For six months h(e had five or six men, — workmen, instructors, or I don't know what he calls them. Q. Has he machinery ? A. The contractor put in the machinery at his own expense. A certain portion of it he can leave when his contract expires, and be paid for by the county at an appraised value. Q. Please state what the disadvantages of this contract system are to the contractor, if you know of any ? A. I do not know that I could state so well as if I were famil- iar with the business he carries on. Certain disadvantages are patent. A large portion of the men are entirely ignorant of any mechanical worjk : a larger proportion are entirely ignorant of the 187 work which be carries ou. Then there are the short sentences, and the lack pf interest taken in the work as compared with men who work for pay. Another disadvantage is the character of a larger or smaller portion of the convicts, who would as soon de- stroy a shoe as make it properly. Now and then, in packing shoes, you will find a shoe cut, evidently on purpose. Men will get tired of work, and plaj- sick. That comes under the head of lack of in- terest in the work. Then there is the general poor character of the work ; so that I understand that they get less prices for it, though I know nothing about that personally. But I know that my con- tractor stated to me and to the county commissioners that he would give any man three hundred dollars to take that contract off his hands. He is an active, energetic man, and ought to have made something out of it, if anybody could ; whether he has or not, I do not know. The government of the shop and the work of the men are better than he expected, so far as the conduct of the men in the shop is concerned. Q. Are those all the disadvantages ? A. All that occur to me at the present time. Q. Could you state what advantages the contractor would have over an outsider? A. A man who pays fifteen cents a day for a man's labor ought to have an advantage over a man who pays a dollar or a dollar and a half ; but for fourteen years they have all said that they do not. Another disadvantage is that the days are short. Q. How much is the average the j^ear round ? A. I do not know. During the summer time they get ten hours ; but now we cannot get to work, unless it is a very clear morning, before half-past seven, and often later. And then he may not be able to work after four or half-past. We do not light the shop. Q. An average of nine hours through the year? A. I should think not. Q. Eight hours ? A. Not more than that. Q. The only advantage you think he has is the employment of men cheaper than what is paid outside ? A. Yes, and having them substantially regular at their work. Q. Shop-rent ? A. Yes ; he has heating and shop-rent. Q. Can you tell me the amount of stock, including machinery, you have there to carry on the business ? A. No, I cannot. I have no occasion to know. My only duty is to see about the discipline and government of the shop, and collect the money. Q. Could any system of labor be introduced by which the in- stitution might be made self-sustaining? A. It is a matter of experiment altogether. "We tried thor- oughly this matter of basket-making ; but perhaps at another time it might succeed. But it did not there. I undertook to start the making of brooms, and we went a little way ; but the commis- sioners stopped my plan, and went into basket-making. I had an idea that we could make something out of brooms. Q. (By Mr. Maksb.) Wherein did the basket business fail? 188 A. In the first place, in the purchase of stock. It was trouble- some to get proper material, and there was a good deal of waste. It cost a good deal for overseers. We had to pay pretty high for a man who understood the work ; and we could not make baskets that would compete with those made in the country, especially those fellows going around with an old horse and wagon and a load of baskets. They would sell their baskets at any price, and take their pay in store-goods. I frequently went into places in Dock Square, and found that we had to sell piretty cheap. And then our baskets were not so good. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) The cause of the failure was that you could not compete with outsiders ? A. Yes : that covers the whole. "We have not land enough to do any thing at farming. Some thirty-day men are hired by farmers in the neighborhood. They would come and get them in the morning, and bring them back at night. We would get a little more pay for them, and I suppose I was authorized to do that. Q. What did you receive for them? A. The rule has been whatever the contract-price in the shop was ; but I have got more. I have got twenty-five cents a day, when the men in the shop were getting fifteen, and sometimes a little more than that. I have heard that at Ipswich they got fifty cents and a dollar a day ; but those are exceptional cases, of course. Q. Have you any idea of the number of cases of boots, a dozen pairs to a case, made in a day or a week by the prisoners ? A. I do not know. I have heard the contractor • speak of the number of cases, sixty pairs to the case ; but I would not under- take to say what it was. I know that he told me the number of cases as compared with what an ordinary shop in Haverhill or Lynn would turn out, and it was a pretty small showing. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) The work is women's shoes? A. Yes. Q. Do you know whether the goods have to be stored for any length of time before they are brought into the market ? A. Some time ago, somebody told me that Mr. Tilton had a large stock on hand in Haverhill. Q. Do you know where they are sold, — in New England, or elsewhere ? A. I am inclined to think his trade is Western and Southern. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) What does he make, — cheap goods, or costly goods ? A. Cheap. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Do you know what efl'ect the goods that are sold have upon the labor-market ? Or do they have any ? A. I do not believe anj'body would know that any were made there. Q. It has no effect at all? A. I do not imagine it has. I do not see h'ow it can. We do not take any men out of the shops ; and the niajority of the men who work are not shoemakers. Those of them who learn to make any kind of a shoe, and will not com* back again, are so many 189 added to the number who make shoes. I do not know whether that would be considered an advantage by the men. ' Q. Do the prisoners learn a trade which they can follow after- wards ? A. If you call it a. trade to learn to make part of a shoe, I suppose they do. Q. Do you have many recommitments ? A. Yes. There is a set you can count on seeing all the time. There are, of course, a good many recommitments. There is a certain set of men and women who come around regularly. Q. Do you average the recommitments ? A. No. I have one man, — a shoemaker from Haverhill, — and I think he has been there forty times ; so that he is just as good for the contractor as a long-sentence man. The question is quite a diflferent one as applied to a countj' house of correction, or the State Prison, or an institution where the sentences are long, and the character of the inmates different. In Lawrence the char- acter of the inmates would vary much from the men they have at "Worcester. Q. During the last six weeks, when the men were idle, earning nothing for the county — A. They earned nothing ; but the county has been receiving pay for seventy of them. Q. Then it is not compulsory upon the contractor to keep the men at work ? A. No : it is not. Q. (Bj' Mr. Maesh.) Would you not consider it a serious evil having those men idle ? A. Very serious indeed. When I say that he is not com- pelled to keep them at work, I may be mistaken. I think he may be, after all. But it is a very great misfortune. It would be better to have the men employed at not a cent's pay. The law requires their employment ; and it makes no difference whether they earn a dollar or not. In my judgment, the earning of money is a secondary consideration. Q. When was j-our contract made ? A. Two years ago this December, I think. Q. For how long a time ? A. I think it expires next April. Q. Is there any clause in the contract by which the contractor, by giving notice, can give it up before the expiration? A, I think there is. Q. (By Mr. Tatlor.) Please state your opinion concerning the questions contained in that circular ? A. I do not think that the system has any effect on the general industries, or free labor. As to the reformation of the convicts, I do not think that the system has any thing to do with the refor- mation of the convict, if the prison is properly supervised and conducted. Q. You do not think the instructors and contractors have any bad influence upon the prisoners ? A. I consider it my duty to so supervise and understand the character of all the men that the contractor puts in there as to look 190 out for any thing wrong. I would not have for instructor a man who was doing boldly, and to the knowledge of the prisoners, what they were sent there for themselves. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) Do j'ou consider that your convicts learn a trade, as a trade is regarded outside ? A. I do not thinlc they do, as I understand a trade. I do not see how men serving so short average sentences can learn one. Q. In your experience, do you know of any reformatory effects ? A. Yes ; in individual cases. Q. As a general rule ? A. I do not think I could answer that question in a general way. There is a certain class of men imprisoned in the House of Correction, who, I think, are greatly benefited, who reform, and never come again. There is another class upon whom imprison- ment does not have the slightest effect. There is another class still, upon whom I think it has a bad effect. Probably that cannot be avoided. Q. What percentage of your convicts are sent for drunkenness, and offences connected with drunkenness ? A. A large proportion. Q. Sixty per cent? A. No, I should not think so ; but perhaps it would be. Q. What effect does imprisonment for drunkenness have upon the individual ? Does it reform him ? A. That depends upon two or three considerations, — one is the length of the sentence ; and the other, the character of the man. I do not think the ordinary sentence of the police court reforms a man ; but I think it might have an effect, if the sentence were longer. Q. Do you know of any men who have been discharged from your institution who are working at trades or business they did not know before they came to j'our institution ? A. I have no doubt that there are many men working at shoe- making in that way. Q. Is there any attempt to learn what becomes of men after they leave the institution ? A. Nobody has any care of that, or would be liable to, except m^'self. I endeavor to know something of the history of men whom I think worth looking after. But I have no regular sj'stem. Q. You have kept the run enough, perhaps, to answer the ques- tion. Is the common idea well founded, that prison-life is beneficial to the crime class, because they learn trades, and are put under good influences, which will make them self-supporting, and better citizens ? A. I did not know that that, as applied to prisons ordinarily, was the general opinion. Q. It is something you will hear very often. A. Yes. Well, it is pretty difficult to answer. I mean that in my institution the influences shall be good ; but all efforts and attempts are counteracted by the necessary prison associations. In the first place, in our prison a large proportion of the prisoners, on account of the crowd, have to be put two in a cell together. Many of the persons committed are young men who have had no 191 good controlling influence outside, and to whom prison restraint for a short time does no good. Q. Does the mixture of short-sentence and long-sentence men in a prison like this affect the discipline of the prison and the character of the men, favorably, or unfavorably ? A. I think it would be better for the long-sentence men if they were together, and it would be better for the discipline of the prison. The effect upon a man sent for thirty days does not amount to much one way or another. I should prefer, on all accounts, that there should be a classification. If I could, I would undertake to send short-sentence men to Ipswich, and long-sen- tence men to Lawrence ; but Lawrence and Haverhill send most of the short-sentence men, and the expense would be too great. Q. Do you recognize the existence of what we call the crime class ? A. Yes, without any question. Q. Have you ever made any study of the mental condition of convicts, so that you can pass any opinion as to whether they are descendants of persons who were weak mentally? A. There are men there to-day who were there as boys when I first came. There are the children of those who came there, and sometimes the grand-children. I have thought many times, and I think every day, that I will make a business of keeping a record, and settling the question, as far as I can, of the heredity of pris- oners. I am inclined to think that I should find that a very large proportion are from bad parentage. We have in Lawrence a little city indusU-ial school with which I have been connected since it was established ; there are about thirty boys in it, and there is not a time when we do not have children of persons who have been or are inmates of the house of correction. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) That is a reformatory institution? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Don't you consider it absolutely essen- tial that there should be some waj' to obviate the necessity of the prisoners lying still for any length of time ? A. Yes. I could not say too strongly as to that, that it. is a great lAisfortune ; that the State would better pay every dollar that it costs. I have no doubt of it when you regard it as a matter of reformation. I have great confidence in hard work. I would have every man tired when it comes night. I would have him work all day steadily, so that he would want to go to sleep when night came. Soap and water and hard work I believe in. In all this I want to ■ say that the whole very much depends, — I am not saying this of myself or any individual, — but the character, conduct, effect, and influence, every thing connected with a penal institution, must very largely depend upon the spirit, tone, and atmosphere in the insti- tution. Q." (By Mr. EEfco.) Do you think that penal institutions ought to be connected with politics in any way? A. No. 192 TESTIMONY OF A. B. K. SPRAGUE. A. B. R. Sprague sworn. Q. (By Mr. Tatlok.) What position do you hold ? • A. Sheriff of the county of Worcester, master of the house of correction, and keeper of the jail at Worcester. Q. How long have you been there ? A. As sheriff, nine years ; master of the house of correction and keeper of the jail, between four and a half and five years. Q. What business is carried on ? A. Cane-seating chairs. Q. Any other business ? A. No other. Q. How many men are there in your prison ? What is the aver- age number? A. For the year ending last September, a hundred and sixty- seven, — a reduction on the daily average of seventeen as com- pared with the year previous. Q. How many men have you employed on cane-seating? A. All are emploj'ed who are suitable persons to be employed. We have shop-room sufficient for all who can do the work. Q. How is the business canied on ? A. It is done by contract, — so much a seat, — not by the day. Q. Who is the contractor? A. The Walter Heywood Chair Company of Fitchburg. They have both prisons, — the Worcester Prison and the Fitchburg Prison, which is a smaller one in Fitchburg. Q. Please state the terms of the contract? A. The contract for the present year I have not received ; but I have been informed by the county commissioners, who make it, that it is at the same rate as last year, except that the drayage, formerly paid by the county, from the prison to the cars, — amount- ing to a hundred and eighty-six dollars last year, — is to be paid by the company. It is at the same rate as previous to the first of May last. Q. Please state the terms of the last contract ? ' A. Our chairs are numbered ; and the common Grecian (?) chair, the cheapest seat, is the one of which we make the most, The price is two cents and a half per seat for that kind. Then there is another kind, called number two, which, is a little better seat, and of which we make the next largest number. That is three cents and a half. Then there are two or three other kinds, running up as high as five cents and a quarter. But the bulk of the work is the two and a half and the three and a half, and the most of it the two and a half. The others are chairs that we have very few to make. Q. Can you give the Committee the number of men who" are employed upon the two and a half cent chairs ? A. Thej' are not employed in that waj' : it is not possible to do that. I could have given you the number of seats made last year of each kind : that would give j-ou better information. They send a car-load of seats, — say, eight thousand seats, — putting in what- 193 ever they wish to send us. "We make up that car-load as nearlj'' as we can, and ship them to them. They send what they want us to make, without any special direction : we make them up and return them, — about a car-load a month. Q. Will you give the number of different grades you seat ? A. I haven't it with me. Q. Can you give us an idea? A. The largest portion are two and a half; three and a half come next ; and the others are small in proportion. I can give it to you exactly in writing, and I will send it to you at once. Q. Have you any idea about what a man's day's work would be, — how many of those two and a half seats he could do in a day? A. The average ? Q. Yes. A. That depends a good deal on circumstances. The overseer said the other day that we had men who were making only two or three seats a day ; but I should call a good day's work, for a com- mon seat, seven seats, and a poor day's work two seats. Perhaps five or four would be the average. I should not think they would average five, but not less than four. Q. Have you any opportunitj' of studying this contract sys- tem? A. I hardly know how to answer that question : I do not know that I understand what you mean by it. Q. What we want to get at is this, — whether the contra,ct sys- tem would be better than a system carried on on public account. A. It is my opinion, that in Worcester County, in my prison, certainly, a much greater return could be had for labor , by taking up some industry, and manufacturing on account of the county, with suitable overseers, than now. Perhaps I ought to say that I do not know that I should be willing to say that we could make more money, provided we could earn as much as we earned formerly. We earned, at one time, thirty-three cents a day under the contract system ; and, with a small prison and short sentences, I am inclined to consider thirty to thirty- five cents a day good compensation for labor. Q. Was this under the contract system? A. It was. And perhaps I might say here, that, when we commenced seating chairs, we were earning good pay for the help. Q. (By Mr. Mellen.) When was that? A. In 1875 and 1876. Q. With the present company ? A. I think so. We had three different parties to deal with. I think that in 1875, and a part of 1876, we received seven cents a seat for what we get two cents and a half for now. When we received that compensation, we were earning fair wages. We are now receiving very small compensation for the labor ; and, in view of that fact, I think that almost any industry which would be adapted to our locality would be more profitable. Q, (By Mr. Taylok.) Before the contract was made with the Heywood Chair Company, you were doing better than since ? 194 A. No. You .misunderstand me. I think the contract was first made with the Heywood Company in 1873 or 1874, on the com- pletion of this prison. Previous to that, we contracted the labor for boot and shoe work, and for that we had a per diem in the same manner that it is done in Essex County. Thirty- two cents, I think, is what we had : I think we had thirty-five cents one year. Upon changing the prison, and building a new one, it seemed advisable to put in the cane-work, in view of the large amount of ■ cane-work done in our county. It seemed so to the county com- missioners and all of us. Q. (By Mr. Mellen.) "Who were the county commissioners that year ? A. Velorus Taft was chairman, Mr. Brown, and John W. Brigdon (?). Q. Mr. Brown is chairman of the Heywood Company ? A. Yes. We put in that work because it promised at that time to pay as well, or nearly as well, as the work we had been doing. And when we took into consideration the wear and tear of clothing, which is much greater in boot and shoe work, we thought it would be better to begin on cane-work. We com- menced on a price — I think eight cents ; seven or eight cents — for common chairs. Q. The grade for which you now get two cents and a half ? A. Two cents and a half and three cents and a half. In 1875, with a hundred and fifty prisoners at the Worcester prison, we earned $6,200 : in 1879 we earned $3,151.82. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) How many prisoners in 1879? A. A daily average of a hundred and sixty-eight. We had a daily average of seventeen more prisoners, than in 1875, and our earnings were half what they were in 1875. So that when I say that I think we could take up an industry in our county, and make it more profitable, — about which I have no question, — I do not say that we could make it more profitable than if we were getting thirty-five or thirty-three cents a day on contract ; but I am per- fectly confident that we could do in that vicinity. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) What else do you furnish besides the labor of the men ? . A. Every thing but stock. We furnish overseers. The over- seer of the workshop and the instructor cost us eighteen hundred dollars a year. Q. (By Mr. Mellen.) When you worked on boots and shoes, did the contractors furnish the overseers ? A. They furnished the instructor ; but we had, as we always have, one officer in the workshop, — a prison officer. That is necessary. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Please explain this great falling-away in prices, as far as you know, from 1875 to 1879? A. Depression of business, I suppose, is the reason. I haven't any means of knowing. I have nothing to do with letting labor. I have nothing to do with it, except to receive the money. Q. (By Mr. Mellen.) Was Mr. Brown county commissioner previous to 1875? A. Yes : he was county commissioner for six or eight years before that, I think. 195 Q. '(^By Mr. Hill.) In 1875 were the contracts made by the county commissioners r A. They were not. Q. By whom? A. By the board of overseers, abolished two years ago. The contract made with the Heywood Company at the lowest prices was made by the overseers. The overseers were made by the county commissioners ; but I do not speak of that as having any thing to do with it. These overseers were appointed by the county commissioners. I suppose that they were appointed, so that, living in close proximity to the jails, they were to superintend the labor of the prisons, to visit them weekly, and entertain all such propo- sitions for pardon as came from that class of offenders who come for pardon by the overseers. It worked so in our county ; but in some other counties, as I understand, the countj' commissioners appointed overseers at a distance from the prisons, which made them useless. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Have your prisoners been constantly employed ? A. We have not been out of work for the present year. Q. (By Mr. Mellbn.) Contracts have only one year to run? A. Yes. Q. When was It the first reduction took place, from seven cents per chair ? A. I should say that it was in 1877. Q. That is the year that the county commissioners took charge ? A. No ; the reduction was made by the overseers. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Have you any idea what it would cost outside to do what you are doing in prison for two cents and a half? A. I have no means of knowing. The quality of the work that we do is first-class. It is not inferior to any that can be made anywhere. Q. (By Mr. Mellen.) The earnings of the men hardly pay for the food they eat ? A. The food costs a fraction less than, ten cents per day, at present ? Q. Do you know how much stock there is in prison — the value of it? A. I have no idea. Q. You say you furnish every thing for the contractor, but the stock? A. That is to say, we furnish the frames upon which the chairs are seated, we furnisli the knives and awls ; but that is a small amount. Q. How much material in value does the contractor have there ? A. I have no idea ; a car-load at a time, — eight or ten thou- sand seats, — but the value I do not know. Q. What disadvantages has the contractor to contend with ? A. I should concur with Sheriff Herrick in what he said with reference to that matter. I do not remember any difference of opinion, or any thing that I would not agree with him in. There 196 are some things with reference to the discipline of the prison, and long and short sentences, in which my prison is like Sheriff Her- rick's. Q. Is the average sentence about four months ? A. , No. The last average was a little over six months. We have a large number of short sentences. I cannot see how the work can materiall}' affect the general industries of the State. It is possible that seating chairs — which I suppose was done formerly by families — might go to families now, if not done by the institu- tion. I cannot conceive of families affording to do the work at the prices paid. Q. Do you know of any families engaged in that work ? A. No. But the company say that they can get it done outside at the same prices. Q. (By Mr. Mellen.) Outside, I presume the people have to furnish the tools ? A. There is very little required. I cannot see that the work can have any effect upon the intprests of free labor. If we were making shoes or boots, I do not see that it would make any differ- ence with large manufactures ; it would simply add one more small shop. The county work would not be so good as they make, while in seating chairs we must have good quality, or the work will not be accepted. Q. They pay so much per piece. Do you enter into a contract to furnish all the men who are competent to do the work ? A. Those are substantially the terms of the contract. Q. And you furnish heat, implements, and every thing neces- sary, except the stoc'k? A. Yes. The next question is the effect of the system upon the reformation of the convict : that is a broad subject. In ,my own experience I do not know that labor has any thing to do with the reformation of the convict. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) Have you many recommitments? A. Yes, a good many. We have a class of criminals, who are young criitninals, it is true, who keep coming, for breaking and entering, larceny, drunkenness, &c. They send a man for a second offence for drunkenness up to any number of times. Q. Do 3'ou know the percentage that come for drunkenness ? A. I have made a careful estimate, which is included in my returns to you. I should guess in the vicinity of sixty per- cent for all stages of drunkenness. Q. What advantages, if any, does the contractor of prison-labor have over other manufacturers in the matter of prices ? A. I should concur entirely with what Sheriff Herrick says. There are a good many things to be considered. Contractors have had labor at our prisons in former years, and have always insisted that they did not receive sufficient coinpensation to warrant in- creased prices, or renewed offers at the same prices we formerly made shoes. That is probably a trade which we could take up to better advantage than any thing else, for there are many shoe- makers in our county. Q. (By Mr. Mellen.) In your opinion, it would be better for the county to take up some other industry ? 197 A. Yes, than the present rates at which we are doing work. Q. You are not consulted in the matter of contracts at all ? A. Not at aU. I do not see that prison-labor would have any perceptible effect on similar work outside. If a contractor were getting work from us for two cents and a half that was worth ten, I believe he would put the difference in his own pocket. I do not believe that he would sell goods cheaper. Q. You do not think that goods are put upon the market for less prices ? A. Not those we make. Q. You believe it is an advantage to the contractor to have this cheap labor ? A. Yes. When you speak of our present contract, I think it is a poor contract for the county. The making of the contract is something with which I had nothing to do. I do not know the surroundings ; I do not know why it was done. There is a certain limit to the amount which we can earn on short sentences : thirty- five cents a day would probably be as much for us as seventy-five cents would be for the State Prison on contract- work. Q. (By Mr. Mbllen.) How is that? A. The terms are short. We have but one kind of business. A very large number of persons who come to prison have no trade, and do not want or expect any trade. They are laborers, or those who have not a full trade. Q. You say that thirty-five cents would be as much in a county institution as seventy-five cents at the State Prison ? A. Yes : in an institution of a certain capacity. Q. Yet thirty-five cents won't go any farther in keeping a county prisoner than a state prisoner? A. I think it costs almost as much to keep men in a county prison, if you had the same number. We do not have so many officers. As to the cost of maintenance : — I do not know as to the State Prison ; but it has averaged ten cents a day for three years where I am. That I think is as low as it can be made in any institution. Q. Then there is a good portion of the inmates who do not earn any thing? A. It takes quite a force to run the prison. Q. So that really the prisoners who work at cane-seating chairs hardly earn enough to pay for the food of the inmates of the jail? A. That -is a matter of calculation, and I am hardly prepared to say. Q. You say that the average day's work is four or five seats^ which would be a little over ten cents a day even for those who, work? Q. (By Mr. Reed.) Do you regard the class of men in your, institution as differing in their make-up and character from thosa in other county institutions of the same kind ? A. I am not able to judge, because I do not know what are in, other institutions. They are sentenced for similar offences, and of course must be quite similar. Q. Is there any reason for supposing that they could not earn as much as a similar class of men in any similar institution ? 198 A. No. I think they can earn as much as anybody. I think we have as good able-bodied class of men, perhaps, as they have anywhere. I have seen the prisoners together at Lawrence and at Springfield, and I think we have as capable and intelligent pris- oners as there are anywhere. Q. (By Mr. Mellen.) The contractor pays for good work only? A. Yes. Q. Does it take long to learn the business ? A. No. Young men learn very rapidly. We have a good many old fellows sent there for drunkenness. They are not crimi- nals, only they have disobeyed the law. They are men, who, in my judgment, ought never to be put beside a felon ; but there is no other provision for them. There are several classes of pris- oners ; and nobody but the keeper can classify them, and he can- not very well. A man may be sentenced for drunkenness who is a great criminal, who may have previously served a sentence in the State Prison, perhaps for manslaughter. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) Was shoe-making a success, or a failure, financially? A. The contractors said every year that they were not making any money ; hut I never heard that they lost any. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Relative to this chair-contract. Do you think that in the last three jears you would have been able to let the men in your prison at a better rate of compensation than you have been receiving from the Heywood Company ? A. Taking the three years together ? Q. Yes. We judge from j-our testimony that j-ou think that the men have been let at rather ruinously low rates for the last two or three years, and I ask whether you know of any opportunity where you could have let them to better advantage. A. I have nothing to do with the letting of the labor. I only know when people come to the prison, and inquire if the labor is to be let, and if it has been advertised, &c. Those questions were asked last spring. It is a fact that we found it diflflcult to keep the men employed, two j'ears ago, between two contracts. I think they were idle about four weeks, and I have no doubt that the over- seers made as good a contract as they could at that time with the Heywood Chair Company. It was advertised, and was open to competition. Q. Then you have no reason to suppose that there was any favoritism shown to the Heywood Chair Company ? A. I do not know any thing about it.' The county commis- sioners did the work. Q. You are knowing to the fact that it was advertised properly at the time j^ou think they made as favorable a contract as possible ? A. At that time, I think everybody had an opportunity to compete. Q. (By Mr. Mellen.) How much adveitising was done? A. I do not know. I saw a notice in the paper, and, when- ever anybody inquired about it, I referred him to the county com- missioners. This year it is publicly known and acknowledged that no advertisement was made, and the work was let three months be- 199 foi'e the expiration of the contract ; and the county commissioners say, — perhaps I ought to say it in their defence, — that having advertised before, and received no offers, they thought it would be a waste of money to advertise again. Q. (By Mr. Mellbn.) It having been advertised the previous year, and nobody having applied, they thought that this year it would be futile to advertise ? A. I do not know myself; but I say that that is their answer. Q. You state, as I understand it, that the contract was re- newed three months before it expired ? A. I was notified very early in February that the contract had been closed for the year, commencing the first of May, at the same rate as before, the Heywood Chair Company paying in addi- tion the drayage of the chairs from the jail to the cars and back. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) That contract runs till next May? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) What rank do you hold in the State in regard to your earnings per man ? A. I have not compared. I think Sheriff Herrick does as well as any. I am not able to speak accurately. Q. Is there any effort made in your county to look after the men after they go out of prison, and have any idea of what be- comes of them ? A. No effort, except by the prison officers with the assistance, I might say, of the Sisters of Mercy, who are interested in many prisoners, and follow them, especially the young men ; but there is no oflScial agent. Many, however, have gone to work, and are becoming respectable citizens. Q. As a general thing, does the labor and influence of the prison make them better ? A. That depends entirely upon circumstances. Many men are made better in prison. A man who commits his first offence, and is sent to prison, and sees to what straits he may be brought in time, often goes .out reformed. Q. Are you familiar with the Elmira plan ? A. No. Q. The indeterminate plan ? A. In that regard, of course, every thing depends upon the keeper ; and the keeper knows better about the'men than anybody else. I have seen many cases where I would be very glad to relieve a man, and send him home. At the same time, it would give a power which would be very unpleasant for a single person to hold. Many men are sent to prison, in my judgment, who would be better at home. Q. You have no land connected with your institution ? A. None for farming. Q. Would you consider it feasible to employ short-term men on the land ? A. Yes : a certain number around the prison. Q. Do you think it could be made a source of health and profit ? A. They can raise vegetables and such things, and earn more money outside. But that opens up another question as to the purpose of the prison. It is, a question whether it is right tha|t a 200 man sentenced to hard labor should be sent out to a farm, or to help build somebody's house ; as to whether taking their wages from them is meant to be the punishment. Q. Do you use any prisoners on the land ? A. Yes, around the building. . Q. Do you raise any vegetables ? , ; ' A. Yes, some. s^v Q. You have land enough ? A. Yes, probably for that purpose. The prison at Fitchburg has thirty acres of land ; but I have never thought that it was a suitable thing to do, to take men out of prison, and make farmers of them. I have no doubt it wouldbe as well for the men physi- cally ; but it seems to me as though the purposes of punishment would be defeated, unless ypij could classify the prisoners. Many of them might properly and profitably be sent to work about the grounds ; but for another class of prisoners, sentenced, for severe crimes, from one to five j'ears, it seems to me that that would be an entirely incorrect idea. You can pick out men who could go out to work, and be benefited by it. I have always had the opin- ion, which is confirmed by experience, that the class of persons who are committed for drunkenness, and have been guilty of no other crime, — men who are not otherwise bad, -^ ought not to be confined, and held to the same account, as felons. There ought to be, and might well be, some institution within the enclosure of the county grounds, where they could be allowed to engage in any occupation ; and the avails of their labor above the amount neces- sary to sustain them might be sent to their families. Q. Ill your opinion, does not punishment for drunkenness very often punish the families of the individuals more than the individ- uals themselves ? A. Much more. Q. Do you know of cases of actual suffering ? A. They occur every week. Q. Does punishment for drunkenness, in your opinion, often effect reformation ? A. Earely, if ever. Possibly there are some cases in which a man who has got to drinking hard, and is sent for thirty days, is reformed. But when men come to prison time after time, shutting them up merely takes away the avails of their labor, and the bread from their children's mouths. Q. Then lengthening the sentences would not do any good ? A. I cannot conceive it. There are men, who, if kept from liquor three, or four, or six months, would not drink any more ; but that is not the general rule. Q. (By Mr. Mellen.) .What punishment do you think there should be? A. I do not think there should be any punishment for such offences. Q. What remedy would you propose ? A. T do not know as to that. There ought not to be any more than to keep society decent. I do not think it is much of a crime for a man to get drunk, though it is in the eyes of the law. It is an infirmity of which men who have not the appetite cannot judge properly. 201 Q. Suppose you wished to experiment, would it be discretion- ary with you ? — for instance, to put men on the land : could you do that? A. The trouble would be to keep an accurate account of their labor and its avails, and know exactly how much it cost to sustain them less than their earnings, in order to send the balance to their families. A. I think the chief thing is, not putting the men outside to labor. Q. Would it be within your power to do this ? or would you have to do as the commissioners willed ? A. The county commissioners haven't any thing to do with the labor of the prisons. When they have made the contract, that is all they have to do, except to see that the prisoners are properly employed. Q. Isn't that considerable? You are not satisfied with existing circumstances, you think better could be done, yet you cannot change it, because these gentlemen say that the men's labor must be leased to this concern ? A. If I could take up some kind of manufacture for the benefit of the county, we should have a right to use any men for any thing which we could do. I might have two, or three, or half a dozen men who could make a first-class boot, or a first-rate article of some- thing else, and might have a year or two tci serve. I could put these men at work to do what would pay best for the county. I cannot do that under the contract. Q. Don't you think that it would be wise to have some changes made, so that the keeper could have some discretionary power? A. Being keeper myself, I should not like to express an opin- ion. Q. What facilities have the county commissioners of knowing the needs of the men, and what they are best adapted to do? A. They have none whatever, Q. Yet they have this power to dispose of their labor? If they knew as much as the keeper, it is to be presumed that they might put them to a better use ? A. They are required by statute to inspect the prison twice a year only, and they can get very little idea from that. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) What industry would it pay better to put in there ? A. I do not know that I should be prepared to state' to-day what I thought would be the best. I am inclined to think that we could take up a branch of any kind of business that is generally done. I do not think that a small thing which is done only by a small number of people in the Commonwealth or the county would be a good thing to take up. If prison-labor would affect any busi- ness, it would be a limited business. But the boot and shoe business is so extensive, that it makes no difference. If we took up brogans, and made as good an article as anybody makes, and put them on the market for the same price, I do not see why we shouldn't get as much as anybody ; but we could not make fine boots or fine clothes. Q. (By Mr. Mellen.) Have you any idea of the magnitude of this cane-seating in the State ? 202 A. No. Most of it is done in Massachusetts, and most in "Worcester County. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) Is there considerable emulation among prison officers throughout the State as to the cost of prisoners ? A. Not that I am aware of. We have an anxiety to have our prison pay as well as possible, and reduce the cost of maintaining the prisoners. Testimony of Horatio' G. Herrick resumed. Witness. — About employing men on grounds outside. The law requires that every jail and house of correction shall have a special enclosure to prevent escape and intrusion. I do not know of any, except East Cambridge, where they have a wall. If we had a wall to prevent people from coming in, and prisoners from getting out, we could use men outside to better advantage, and at much less cost. About looking after men when they get out. I have not been able to see why the State should supply an agent to look out for discharged State Prison convicts, and nothing whatever be done for the inmates of the county institutions. We have authority to give a little help ; but, other than that, there is no provision made to help men who go out. Another thing I would like to say as to this matter of industry, and the work being done on public account. Here are three county commissioners, living, or supposed to live, in different parts of the county, and they are required by law to visit the prisons twice a year, though, as a matter of fact, ours is visited once a month. But each man has business of his own ; and no man can know about the character of a prison and convicts, unless he has opportunities of making himself acquainted with them. The question is, whether or not a man who is competent to have charge of a house of correction with a large number of inmates is competent to take charge of it in all its departments, and carry it on as any man would his own business. In that view of the ease, I might change my answer relating to the contract s3-stem : my answer was given with reference to the present arrangement. If I had the whole matter in my own hands, I would not like to say what industry I would take up : I might take three or four kinds, perhaps. A reasonably smart man at the head of an institution like this might do very well. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) You believe that a competent man could emploj' the labor better than it is employed now ? ^. ■ I am inclined to think that in the long-run, and with the present laws as they are (making the contracts a matter for the county commissioners, and taking all power substantially from the masters) , I do not know that the contract system makes aby diflference. Q. Do you believe that it would be better to have the law give the power to the superintendents? A. I should not like to answer that question directly, because I am one myself. It is better for my own comfort and convenience to go on as wef are going now. 203 Testimony of A. B. R. Speagtjb resumed. Witness. — It is a matter of very great importance, this matter of discharged convicts. I attempted, soon after taking the prison, to get up a Prisoners' Aid Society, but failed in doing it. I got some help from the Sisters of Mercy, who have visited our con- victs, and taken an interest in them, especially in the young. But some provision ought to be made for the county institutions, as well as the Slate Prison ; so that a man who goes out of my prison — and I am satisfied and know that he cannot get employment to- day, and that he must steal, or commit some other crime, to live — so that some authority could give him a reasonable amount of money, and get him employment, and started in the right direction. Men going out ask for a loan of a dollar or a half a dollar, and say that they will return it the next week or the next month ; but they never do. There ought to be some means of providing a man with temporary assistance. There is no provision made. When I took the Worcester Prison, I found that they were doing this work by stint. If a man did over seven chairs in a day, he was to receive, at the end of the month or at the end of his term of months, so much monej;. I found that it was entirely illegal, and, besides, that it was working great injustice. Perhaps the man who needed it most, by working as hard and as faithfully as he could, could seat only three chairs ; while a young fellow who was smart with his fingers could secure quite an allowance for over- work. We need some provision whereby some sum may be ex- pended to start these men, and help keep them right. In prison they are free from temptation ; but, when they get out, they want something to start them right. Then with reference to pardons I want to say a word. The county commissioners have power to pardon for certain offences, -r^ idlers, vagrants, common drunkards, and a class of persons who may be sentenced for six months. They have that authority to be exercised when in their judgment they think it best. But if a man comes into prison with a fine of three dollars and costs, or one dollar and costs, amounting to a term of thirty or forty days, there is no power to remit the fine except the justice of some court ; and courtesj' requires that the justice of the same court who sentenced him should be asked to remit the penalty. But where a man is sentenced for less than three months, there is no power to release him short of the gov- ernor. It seems to me that a board which has the authority to remit a penalty of six months should have power to remit in cases of thirtj', forty, or sixty days. Those cases are brought to my attention very often. It seems to me that when a man is sent over for drunkenness with a fine, after a daj- or two he ought to be out and with his family, and that the best thing that could be done would be to put him out. There is no way of doing it, except through a justice, and in a year I presume I have got fifty men out by doing that. But that takes time. Q. (By Mr. Reed.) It does not make any difference how much his familj' is suffering ? A. None at all. 204 TESTIMONY OF JOSHUA CRANE. Joshua Crane sworn. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) What is your business ? A. I have been in mercantile business for thirty-three or thirtj'- four years. I keep a country store in Bridgewater. Q. Have you any thing to do with the institution at Bridge- water ? A. Yes. I have been inspector there for the last eight years. Q. Are you still an inspector ? A. I am one of the trustees. The board of inspectors was abolished with the change made in the law last winter, and it is now a board of trustees, with similar duties. Q. What business is carried on in the institution ? A. We have a farm of two hundred and twenty acres, and the labor has been chieflj' confined to the farm ; and then there have been some other kinds of business in addition to that introduced from time to time formerly. Q. What other business ? A. We have, in years past, manufactured baskets to some ex- tent ; and we have, for the purpose of finding employment, and keeping the prisoners out of utter idleness, froni time to time picked oakum.. We have a lot of old men who are unable to do any skilled labor, and we furnished them with that in years past more or less. Later we have introduced the same business that has been mentioned here, — the chair business, — to some extent. Q. To what extent? A. We have a shop that will employ about a hundred men ; and for nearly a year, since we commenced in that business, we have employed about that number. Q. Is that the only mechanical industry? A. Yes. Q. Is it by contract? A. Yes. Q. Who is the contractor? A. Mr. Wesson of Springfield is the contractor. I might say, in relation to our labor, that the question of employing our prison- ers there upon any mechanical labor was one which seemed to be most ijnperative, as we found that there was a certain Class that could not be employed at all upon the farm with safety, owing to the number of oflScers that we have, and the exposed, weak con- dition of the institution. We found that it was necessary to keep a large number within the yard, and we were ready to receive any offer for the employment of the men that might present itself. For a long time we were really destitute of any labor that was of any account whatever, and we even set the men to pounding stone, which amounted to nothing, except to give them bodily exercise. Their labor was of no value worth mentioning. Q. Do you consider that the business they are at now is val- uable ? A. I consider that in one view it is, as giving them employment 205 and habits of industry while they are there. The compensation is very small, as j'ou are aware. ■ Q. Five or ten cents a day ? A. I never computed it by the day ; but it is somewhere, be- tween five and ten cents a day. I spoke of the basket business, and, as that has been alluded to, I may say that our experience was 'precisely like that stated by the gentleman from Lawrence. "We found difficulty in manufacturing baskets so as to compete with outside parties, and great difficulty in manufacturing an ar- ticle that was of good quality. "We had these people who were utterly without skill. "We had to teach them to make a basket, and, by the time they were taught, they were oflf. Q. How long has the contract system been there ? A. This is the only contract that I know of. Q. "When did this commence ? A. .1 think it is less than a year. I cannot state the precise date ; but I think it was some time last winter. Q. Can you give any opinion as to the effect of the contract system ? A. So far as the experience of our institution goes, it is hardly safe for me to say a great deal. I have my impression, and it is, that there is very little difference, in effect, between the .contract and State-account systems. I think, that, in either case, there will be about the same amount of clamor against it, and I can see difficulties in the way in both directions. In the case of the con- tract, there is apparent competition with free outside labor. Q. How many men have you employed in this chair business ? A. I think there are about eighty men: there were the last time I was in the shop. Q. How many on the farm ? A. On the farm, we have, I should think, possibly fifty men, though, perhaps, not constantly employed. I do not speak from any positive data, only from general impression. Gangs of from twelve to twenty men, as the case may be, go out with an officer. They are not the best men we have there, because the best men are a little too active to be sent out so far under one man. The liability of escape is such that we are obliged to take men whom we feel we can trust, and they are not alwaj-s so active. Some of them are old men, who cannot do a full day's work. Still, they are pretty largely employed on the farm, except in winter, when it would not be humane to carry them out. Q. "Which employment is more profitable to the State ? A. I think that the class of men that we have there earn much more, with suitable supervision, on the farm than in the shop, because it does not require much skill to raise potatoes, and they can do considerable of it, with proper direction. The same men can do very little skilled labor. Q. Are your products sent to the market from the farm ? A. No. "We have so large a number who are unable to work (some women, as j'ou may know), that we consume almost the entire product of the farm, keeping a large dairy, and cows, and stock — more than forty in number. Q. Do you supply any other prisons from your farm ? 206 A. No : we have never supplied any othei' prison. We have sold some stuff off, — potatoes, &c. ; but substantially we consume all that we raise. For every twelve men you have an overseer on the farm ? From twelve to twenty. Q. A paid overseer? A. Yes. Q. And the returns are more profitable with a good overseer than they are by the contract system in the shop ? A. That is my impression. Still, the Contract system comes in where the parties engaged in it could not be emploj'ed upon the farm. So it seems as if there were no alternative. Q. State to the Committee if you know of any way that you could employ this number of men who are now receiving from five to ten cents per day, to better advantage to the State ? A. Judging from past experience, there has been great diffi- culty in securing anj' suitable mechanical industry. In the first place, the character of our inmates is somewhat different from those of the institutions of which we have heard this morning, — of the county prisons, or houses of correction. As a class, a very much larger proportion of them are demented or enfeebled. They are vagrants to a larger extent, — a much larger extent. But j'our question I have not answered. Your question was, whether there was not some other industry that would be more profitable than the one in which we are engaged. We have talked about it, and there seemed to be grave difficulties in every other direction. We might introduce the manufacture of shoes ; but whether or not we would find that attended with any better success than the basket business is a matter of experiment. Q. You do not know now ? A. No : I really do not. Q. How was this contract made with Mr, Wesson? A. It was made by the inspectors and the superintendent. Q. Who are the inspectors? A. J. White Belcher of Randolph, Dr. Bowen of Fall River, and myself. The contract was made under the old system of inspectors ; but at present we have a board of trustees, — the three gentlemen I have named, and two ladies added. Q. Did you as inspectors advertise for this contract? A. No : I do not think there was any public advertisement. We found upon inquiry that this chair business was a good deal like the old-fashioned straw business, where the men were braiding straw at a cent and a half a yard. The countrj' people in Worces- ter County were bottoming these chairs at three cents apiece. Q. Did you send out proposals in any way before this contract was made? A. I do not think there were any public proposals. We con- sulted with people in this line of business, I think. We had the offer of Mr. Wesson, and we made very diligent inquiry. Q. How did Mr. Wesson know that you had labor to hire ? ■ A. I think through some officers who came down from Spring- field. He formerly had some connection with one of the institu- tions up there. I think that he became aware in that way that we had quite a large number of men. 207 Q. Was there anybody else besides Mr. Wesson who came and asked for the services of those men ? A. We had other parties, I think, make application (I do not recollect the names) , and for other purposes. We had the broom business agitated at one time. But every proposal was of a very discouraging character as to the amount offered. Q. Do you belieye that the contract that was made by the inspectors or trustees has been the most profitable one that you could make in the interest of the State ? A. I cannot think of any other. If we had not made it, we should have been absolutely without any employment, unless break- ing stone by the people who have been employed in the chair- shop. Mr. Wesson furnished every thing. We did not have to spend a dollar in preparation. He furnishes his own stands and machinery, which, though somewhat simple, still, I presume, were an expense of eight hundred or a thousand dollars. Q. (By Mr. Hill.) How long has the contract to run? A. I think it was for five years, subject to any change in the law which might be made by thp Legislature. Q. Is there any clause giving either party an opportunity to give notice of the termination of the contract? A. I do not recollect that there was any clause of that kind. Q. Would it have been practicable to make a contract for a shorter time ? A. I am rather inclined to think that it would. Still, that seemed to be the alternative. That was the best contract that we could make. It was that, or none, apparently. We would have been glad to have had a more favorable contract. Q. On what number of men is the contract based ? A. I think a hundred. • Q. Suppose you do not supply a hundred, is there any allow- ance made? A. I think the provision of the contract is such that we can use all the men we need on the farm. We kept that foremost and uppermost, and, in case we fell short of the minimum of a hun- dred, the price paid by the contractor was to be reduced propor- tionately. Q. As. a matter of fact, how manj' men have been employed, on an average, under the contract? A. I think that it has fallen short of a hundred ; that is my impression. Q. . If the number exceeds a hundred, does the contractor pay extra ? A. I think that that was the highest number that he provided for : that was all we agreed to supplj-. We never have exceeded that, and there is not shop-room for any more ; so that I think that there is no provision for any excess. Q. (By Mr. Maksh.) I think it has appeared in evidence be- fore the Committee, that Mr. Wesson stated that the contract was made on the supposition that he should have a hundred and fifty men. Is that according to your recollection ? A. I think a hundred. Q. He stated, that, at the time he took the contract, he was to 208 pay a thousand dollars a year, with the understanding that there should be about a hundred and fifty men ; that,' if it fell below a hundred, a deduction should be made accordingly. A. There are certain seasons of the year when there is no farming going on, and we give him all the men. Q. Your recollection is, that, if the number exceeds a hundred,' he pays no more, but, if it falls short, a deduction is to be made in proportion. Do you think that that is a business-like way of making a contract? — that all the over- run should be for the benefit of the contractor, and all that falls short be at the expense of the Commonwealth? A. My impression on that matter was this : that all that he would probably get over a hundred would be persons that we could less afford to pay a man to superintend, knowing the charac- ter of the men, — those old, broken-down, superannuated men. There was no probability of an excess of a hundred that would be worth reckoning. Q, Don't you think that ten cents a day, which is the utmost that you can get, is rather a low price for those men ? A. Any one who did not know the character of the place and the inmates would say that it was absurd on the face of it ; but it would not appear so to anybody who went there, and saw what I have seen for the last twenty years, for I have known as much about the institution for twenty years as the last eight or nine years. When you consider, that, for years and years and years, those persons have done nothing but hammer stone, or pick oakum, it is plain that any thing that will bring in any money at all is as good as that, and better. Q. Do you suppose 3-ou could have made a contract with any of these chair companies direct, rather than with this party, whom I suppose we may call a sort of middleman ? A. I do not know whether it would have been possible or not ; but, from the information we got as to what thej' were paying in other places, we considered it about as favorable to take it the way we did. Q. Does the contractor furnish his own instructors? A. Yes ; and it is an itfem that saves us the salary of one officer. He has one man, who is such a person as we approve in character and ability, to govern men, who takes the place, and saves the pay, of an officer. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) But you notice the testimony of the gentleman from Worcester, that they do this work by the piece. Is there any thing to hinder you from taking it at Bridgewater 'the same way ? A. We took all that into account. If we had gone into that, we should have had to go to the expense of fitting up machinery, and we had no appropriation for that. We were tied up pretty thoroughly by the Legislature last winter as to salaries and wages. We were cut down ; and to-day our turnips and potatoes are out doors, because we have not had a sufficient number of officers to superintend the men, and finish up our harvesting in ordinary sea- son. In that direction we were somewhat embarrassed. We had no money to put out for preparation to do work on our own account. 209 Q. (By Mr. Reed.) You do not have money enough to pay the requisite salaries for the necessary men ? A. We are short of men, two or three. Q. Have you reduced the number of men from what you had last year ? A. Yes, three or four. Nov. 13, 10.30 A.M. TESTIMONY OF E. SHOEPFLIN. E. Shoepflin sworn. Q. (By Mr. Tatloe.) Your business is manufacturer of gilt mouldings ? A. Yes. Q. Where is j-our place of business ? A. 77 Pitts Street. Q. Have you ever had a contract with any of the penal institu- tions, or House of Industry ? A. No. Q. Make a statement to the Committee of what j'ou know about this gilt-moulding business, and how the prison-work interferes with j'our trade ? A. How it has affected my business ? Q. Yes. A. I will commence by bringing in a part of a statement I made here before the Legislature last session. Q. Confine yourself as much as possible to the matter be- fore us. A. My opinion as regards that statement at this present day is, that it is correct. I have not any reason to change the statement made then. Q. This is a different committee altogether, and we do not know what your statement was. A. The purport of that statement was, that the contract at that time, by employing a hundred and fifty convicts, and taking about fifty of them to put them on gilt mouldings, where there were only a hundred and seventy-five employed in the industry in this State, would certainly prove disastrous. That was the purport of my statement, and I have no change to make ; but I will say that now you will not find more than a hundred persons working at that business in this State, including the instructors of Denham, — in gilt mouldings. Q. (By Mr. Maksh.) You refer particularly to gilt mould- ings? A. Yes, not ornamenting or whitening ; that is different. Those hundred persons average now forty-five cents per inch. They are paid an average wages per inch wide and hundred feet long. In New- York State, where the headquarters of this business is, and where it originated, — having been imported there from Germanj', — there was never less than sixty cents per inch paid, and at the present day a dollar per inch, — that is, for labor. 210 Q. (By Mr. Reed.) I understand you to say so much an inch? A. For a hundred feet of inch moulding a man gets forty-five cents, or four dollars and a half a thousand, for gilding : not more than fifty cents is paid in Boston at the present time. So far as the sales are concerned, the prison-labor affects me mostly with customers who use a great deal of goods. The larger buyers are generally absorbed bj' the contractor, and the smaller ones are left for the free labor. Q. (By Mr. Tatloe.) How many men do you employ? A. At the present time about six. Q. How many did you employ before the contract was given to Mr. Denham? A. On an average for five years, perhaps nine : at times, as high as fourteen and sixteen, and again down to seven and eight, according to the season. This part of the year is considered the best part, and I will say that all the workmen are employed at the present day until after the holidays. Q. State in full what effect the prison manufacture of mould- ings has had upon your trade ? A. It depressed the prices. Q. In what way, how much, when? A. I will state, that, previous to this contract, there was never any moulding went from Boston to New York, with few exceptions ; but since this contract there is more moulding shipped Outside of the State, especially by the contractor, than ever before, to New- York markets. Q. Then it does not interfere with your market here appar- ently ? A. It interferes by depressing prices. We are realizing twenty dollars for inch moulding finished. Before the rise of material, about three weeks ago, we had sold this inch moulding, which is the standard of the price of labor in the shops — those inch mould- ings have been sold for twenty dollars throughout every establish- ment in this city, which is the only place in Massachusetts that makes gilt mouldings, except Concord now. At the present day thej' are sold between twenty and twenty-five dollars a thousand, which includes the recent rise in material. But New- York mould- ings have retained a price not below twenty-two and twenty-four dollars. Q. (By Mr. Marsh.) What did the moulding fetch before the contract ? A. About twenty dollars ; and about the time of the last hear- ing it was sold for nineteen dollars. Q. Before the contract was made ? A. At that time, the labor was eighty-five cents per inch to workmen, as near as I can recollect. Q. And how much did they sell for? A. It retailed at three cents a foot — thirty dollars a thousand. Q. The business that is done at the prison is not retail? A. Both. There is not an establishment in the city that does not retail. Q. It retailed at three cents a foot. What was the wholesale price ? 211 A. It would vary from twenty-seven dollars and a half to thirty dollars. It is a very curious business. To-day a customer will come and ask for two hundred feet ; to-morrow the same individual will get an order for several hundred frames, and will take as much as twenty thousand feet. That customer will never be a wholesale buyer again in his lifetime, until he happens to strike another job of that kind. We estimate our customers by the amount they purchase monthly ; and, if a man buys a hundred dollars a month and over, we consider him a wholesale customer. Q. YovL pay now, you say, forty-five cents, and before the con- tract you paid eighty-flve? A. Yes. Q. What effect has it on the number of workmen employed? A. It keeps them right there in subjection. They cannot help themselves if thej* choose. I will state the fact. At the last hear- ing I made the statement that at the outside there were a hun- dred and eighty-five persons employed at this business in this State. At that time I gave a fair margin over. We are pretty well acquainted with one another, because about all that are left are j-ouths of the Commonwealth, and those who were imported here to start the industry have gone away. Only those who will take the courage to go away will leave. At the last hearing there were a hundred and seventy-five, or thereabouts, employed in the State at free labor. The eflJect of the contract has been to reduce them to a hundred, including the contractor's instructors on gilt mouldings. A week ago ended a strike, where the men asked for a slight advance. The price-list was made last January, and maintained through the summer, and the impetus to business a few weeks ago made the men think that it was a favorable oppoi-- tunity to get a fair advance of prices. But on general work the prices remain the same. We would rather stop business than do it ; and the strike closed in two days and a half. Q. How many manufacturers are there ? A. In this city, and there are none other in the State — there is a small one in Burlington, and one in Bellows Falls. Q. Can j'ou give any idea of the capital that is used for this branch of business in the State? A. That is a very hard piece of work for me to do. A thor- ough business, with every equipment, I believe would require a hundred thousand dollars in its full capacity; but the gilding establishment alone — I will state from my own business : in 1874, with mj' relative, I commenced business with five hundred dollars. That was merely the gilding. But a thorough business, such as it ought to be, would require a hundred thousand dollars, which includes machinery for sawing and planing. Q. Are they men who are employed in this business, as a gen- eral thing? A. There are a few girls. I believe I can trace all the girls. They will not amount to more than twelve ; and they have been apprentices of Mr. Denham. He employs no free labor, other than instructors, that I know of. Q. Was this labor carried on before the prison-contract by men altogether? 212 A. Yes. Q. "Was there no shop that had girls but Mr. Denham's? A. No. Q. Boys? A. There were jouths who were trained in it. The origin of the business in Boston, as hear as I can trace, was in 1849. It was started successfully ; and stimulants being freely used — more or less of the men are addicted to taking it, as it is before them all day — they spoiled their business bj' going too far, I under- stand. After that, there were various factories started, without success, until 1871, Mr. A. Ceppi succeeded in putting a firm establishment into the city. About the same time, or a little previous, a Mr. Meyer, who was then a dealer, began to manu- facture. After that, a man named Johnson, from New York, an ornamenter, came here, who had invented a power-machine for preparing mouldings by power. But he did not dare to use it until the owner of a patent of an essential part of it died, or the patent ran out. He did die, and the patent ran out ; and the machine was put up at the Glendon Company in East Boston. It was not satisfactory to the Glendon Company ; and Denham pur- chased the whole estate, with a gentleman named Stevens. With this machine he tried various experiments, turning put more work, but of minor quality. At last he made quite a success of it. Denham was then bound ; and he has often given me to under- stand that he will yet more or less rule the ti-ade of New England in that line of goods. So he ventured into all kinds of expenses until the Glendon Company failed, which took him under, so I have read in the papers. A business was started in Hanover Street, where he at present keeps his stock-room, under the name of C. B. Everett & Co. That business continued for a little while ; and I have ascertained from employees that it changed hands over night. Then his hands amounted to something like seventy-flve on Hanover Street. Those hands were continually striking, ac- cording to his own statement, and be could not subject them sufliciently ; so that he flpally took a convict-contract. Then he put away all his hands . in the gilding department | and he has ventured to conduct his business up there in the manner that he did. I claimed in my last statement that it would be total anni- hilation of the business if he was allowed to proceed, For that reason I came before the Committee ; and that is why I am here to-day. I have not changed my opinion. It is my belief, how- ever, that the gentleman has not been successful. If he had been successful, we would not be in business to-day, probably. Q. (By Mr. Taylor.) About the time the contract was made, was it not advertised to the public? A. I believe I have beard that it had been advertised. I can- not say positively. Q. Didn't the men have a society at that time to look after their interests ? A. No. Q. "Was there no Union ? A. The emergency called us to come together for the purpose, and that was all there was to it. One would go to another, and 213 say, " What are you going to do about it? " or, " Are you going to do any thing? " Since the business at the prison has been con- ducted by Mr. Skillings, it has not been so pernicious as formerly. Q. Can you tell the reason ? A. I cannot say. When we go to customers who consume a great deal of goods, they simply say, " I can do better." — " How much better can you do?" We get a figure told us which we doubt, and we challenge them to produce the bill. But the bill is nothing to go b^'. They make the bill at a certain figure ; but there is something off. I confess that I have done it myself. Q. You do manage to compete with them in your line of busi- ness? A. If the workmen do not leave us. Q. What has been the effect, directly, upon the wages of the men you employ now ? You said that you used to pay eighty-five cents for what j-ou now pay forty-five ? A. The work now is not so hard as it used to be. The older patterns were harder to make, and, if they were in fashion again, we could not exist now. I will take that back. Denham w^uld not be able to do it in prison. The class of work we do now is of different quality from what we used to do. There are not a dozen men in Boston now who could do a three-inch cable moulding. Q. Is the work done^ by the piece, or by the day ? A. By the piece, as a rule ; but there is nearly always one man who is a superior workman, employed by the day. We try to hold him. Q. Do you employ an}' girls in your establishmetit ? A. No. Q. Six men? A. Men, and a few boj's. Q. Haven't j-ou advantages over the labor Which is employed by Denham & Co. ? Is your work better ? Do you get a better price than they do ? A. I cannot see any advantages. Q. Do they get the same prices that you do ? A. To the best of my knowledge, they try to get all they can ; but they put their work into the places where I could put mine, and that bars out mine ; and their work is so much cheaper, that it fills the place up. Q. They sell goods cheaper ? A. Yes, wholesale they do ; and retail they are exorbitant sometimes. Q. Would not this large firm be able to compete with Denham ? A. Probably ; because they have more capital. Q. Then it is a matter of capital? A. Yes. Q. One man can employ free labor, and compete With a ma^i^ who employs convict-labor? A. Yes. Q. Then where does the conflict with free labor come iaji ?> A. The contest commenced at the outset between tljtos^ two, houses. One tried to rule tlie trade of New Englanf the 254 questions as I received them in print. I will answer questions, and leave my written statement, which covers matters of statistical facts of our own State and of the United States. The Chairman. How long have you been connected wjth the pris- ons and penal reformatory institutions of the country, or interested in them? Dr.' Hahris. I have been an observer and visitor for something more than nine years, giving as much time as possible to the duties that were imposed upon me. I do not give all my time to such service ; but for nine years I have maintained a steady observation in our own State, ex- tending my observations to such other States as I chanced to be able to visit. My special studies of the criminal classes as found in prisons has covered nine years and a half now. The Chairman. The main question before the commissioners, the question which we desire to solve, is this ; Is there a conflict between con- vict-labor and free labor? Is there a gi-eater conflict between the contract system of convict-labor than there would be between any other system and free labor? Are the workingmen injured by the competition? are manufacturers injured by the competition? Can any substitute be sug- gested by which the injury could be avoided? Br. Harris. The contract sy.stem is the convenient one for those who are placed in official responsibility. It is a convenient one, because it shifts from their own shoulders any great responsibility for the proper division, immediate personal supervision, and the various and most important results of the conflict of labor. The contract system is. a necessary outgrowth of the partisan system, — the merely partisan ad- ministration, — it grows out of it, and pertains to it, as Dr. Wines has said; and it is a wretched, shiftless state, that cannot see its way out of any great diiBculty that arises from any wrongs inflicted by contracts, or the system of contracts. The responsibility rests with the Legislatures and with the prison officials. There is no difficulty in the matter so much as for a single year; for were it decided by the prison authorities in any one of our States, that, on a certain day, no contractor, and no person not sworn to duty, and not expert, and authorized as an official, should pass beyond the prison-walls, excepting for the purposes of morstl instruction, — and he, too, should be authorized in the same manner, — there is not a State that could not bring that into operation, except so far as antecedent contracts bar the way. One of the greatest wrongs to the State, and one of the greatest wrongs to the convict, is, that all sorts of persons come before them as their masters and their teachers, their ac- cusers, their critics, — aU sorts of persons, even to moral teachers, even to visitors. It has become one of the most deplorable of all the wrongs to the people, that these persons that are cast into prison feel only a very light degree of influence, from their instructors in labor and their super- visors in labor, for their good; and yet there are instances sometimes in our own State, and in almost every State that I have visited, where a particular contractor and a particular superintendent of work, hired by the contractor, is the very model of excellence, and ought to be made a State officer because of that. There is almost always some exception, where the great necessities of some trade have brought into the prison a man who is fit. The contract system as it is found is making for us habitual criminals; is maintaining the ranks of crime; is filling them, and keeping them full ; so that, if any one hundred felon-convicts found in this State, or your State, or in any one of the four States that are most concerned in this particular inquiry about us here, — of any one hundred of these felon-convicts, you may say with much certainty that more than fifty of them will, when released according to law, again do crime, and again make themselves worthy of prison. That is the most. fearful of all facts, that- the ranks of crime have become so full, -that the country is endangered by the very excess of the criminal population. It is with 255 criminals as it is with young prostitutes. Abandoned of society, they abandon themselves, they give themselves up in utter despair, and cease to purpose to come back into the ranks of honest life. It is idle to deny that. Professor Wayland knows as well as I do, and much better, I think, — for he has written much more strongly than I should venture to write, though I believe it, — that the very tramps beconie so abandoned, that it is almost impossible to turn them into society, as we treat that class of persons. We have in the United States, as" found by the last census, thirty-three thousand convicts. We then had over that, and we have more than that, as we know that population and crime go on pari passu, or perhaps crime gains a little on the ratio of population ; but we have thirty-three thousand criminals that ought to be worked, because they are caught, and under sentence. There are very few that can be ex- cused because they are sick, or should be, — only those that are sick or dis- abled. And of those thirty-three thousand we must manage to distribute them among the trades and occupations that can be worked within walls mostly, that can be worked within the custody of prison officials; and you look about among the trades to see how many occupations there are, and you will find that of the twelve millions of all the people that were found engaged in useful occupation, including agriculture and horticul- ture, building and manufacturing, that a little short of six millions were engaged in agriculture ; fully that, or over that, now, as the last census showed just short of six millions were engaged in agiiculture and care of the grounds of the country, of twelve and a half millions who were engaged in various useful occupations. Of the millions that remained, 2,700,000 were engaged in occupations in which it is possible to employ prisoners. Of this 2,700,000 you have got to make a selection, and divide the labor. Col. Montesinos has been spoken of, and Mr. Cordier. We have just such men in our own country. We have Mr. Brockway and Mr. Welles, and we have model prisons. The subdivision of this labor in the most prudent and profitable manner possible, and the most harmless manner possible, would bring these thirty-three thousand men into relation with only about one million employed men and women in the country. It is therefore perfectly necessary, from the mere arith- metical statement of it, that this one million of lalaorers receive into their ranks this thirty-three thousand — we will call it twenty thousand. You win find, when the next census comes in, it will roll up a number that is worthy the attention of every hatter in the country, and every shoemaker in the country. They must look at it if they have families; and we, as fellow-citizens, must not blink at all. No governor can afEord to say he does not care. It is a matter of great importance, when we see that twenty-five per cent of the hatters in this State working on felt hats are prisoners, when you look abroad and see that certain trades have taken ten per cent, twelve per cent, or nine per cent. Here, we will say, are thirty-three thousand persons who must do labor; we must insist upon it; we must make crime feel the pressure of toil to the largest safe extent.. It is the great remedy and reformatory influence, properly applied, no doubt of it. It is a physiological fact. Who shall apply it? and how shall it come about that the man shall be brought into proper relations with labor, so that it shall do him some good? You have all a good right to opinions, and, if you examine it, you will all come to about the same conclusion that any of us do who have spent years in examining prisons and prisoners. These thirty-three thousand persons must be put into employment where there is scarcely a million of persons employed. That will give just about three per cent addition to the ranks of these honest toilers. There is not a laborer in any one of the trades that would talk with you or me an hour, or listen to an argument honestly drawn, frankly stated, confessing the dangers on all sides, and the rights on all sides, and the duties on all sides, — there is not a laborer in any trade that can read and write, that has a clear judgment and a right 256 mind, but that would consent that that degree of addition should be made. I have never found the man, no matter how hot-headed he was, even a communist, that would not consent to that. There is no danger in approaching the laboring-classes with plain facts. The very moment that we say this is none of the laborer's business, and we cannot afford to stop and discriminate, we involve ourselves in fatal difficulty, and prove ourselves less competent to deal with the question than the circumstances require. There is many a manager of labor, many a large capitalist, that I have conversed with on this subject, because he would thrust it before me, who is ready with his acceptation of any conclusion based on necessity in the case ; and the first conclusion is, that all convicts that can labor shall labor from eight to ten hours a day. .No man who knows the history of the causes of crime would not allow that there is no class of criminals that ought to go without labor, no matter how finely they have been nourished and cultivated in their youth. Now, this three per cent must be imposed somewhere; and, when you come to a close exami- nation of the question, you will find in many directions it would be safe to put it at six per cent, as it would be in Curtis's barrel-factory, and as it is in the great brush-factory at Elmira, where the boys are going to school every day, and yet earn over sixty cents a day; and where they were just Hke rude criminals, — as one of the managers wrote me, that they looked like ci-iminal stock. The Chairman. There is no contractor there ? Dr. Harris. No contractor will ever be permitted to enter the re- formatory while the present managers hold their place, such is the con- viction there, that the two processes are absolutely inconsistent; and the conviction is founded on the absolute fact. In order to make it easy to settle this question, so that those who must live by their toil, and whose babes are crying from want, in order to make it possible to deal so that one who does not take any part in our philosophy will say, " You have got to be just to those who have learned to toil, and know nothing else than toil, and have nothing else for their subsistence," we must see what it is we have got to impose upon the businesses, the trades, and occupations (for they need not all be trades), because so large a proportion of our fellow-men are criminals. We shall hold in this State steadily about five thousand felon convicts, — steadily, for crime cannot be diminished largely, because the population increases largely. We have in our six State penitentiaries at the present time about a thousand felon convicts, — the brightest and best of laborers, young. We have in the State prisons about four thousand, not counting the incapables; that is, the lunatics and idiots (it may be found that some prisoners have gone into idiocy). Now, we have got to work these criminals, or they will fall into conditions that are more dangerous to society. I beg to call attention to that, because I have given the facts in the written memorandum, which I prefer to submit, rather than to give details, unless questions are to be answered. As regards the other point mentioned, the influence of contractors in prison: the influence of contractors, as it stands to-day, is better than the influence of an impure-minded and profane public official. So we go into a prison, and we find a man of virtuous life and excellent habits often giving his life to the work of the contracts. We have one in this State, — a superintendent of labor, who has been in his place twenty-six years, and is a model gentleman, — a man of great chajacter, who has the entire supervision of all the industries in one of the large penitentiaries. He is a man to whomi I can always refer a particular question regarding a family or a prisoner that needs espepial attention, some guidance to get a boy out of his criminal associations, — a boy whose father may have been a criminal, — and all that. There is a superintendent of labor hired at a high salary, who has helped make the fortunes of four great contractors, who, in Succession, have had their capital invested; an4 upon the whole 257 I never have seen a superintendent in a prison in any State whom I con- sider as perfect in his morals and conversation as that particular hired servant. That shows that the question how to get rid of the contract system is hardly the first one. It is very much as Dr. Wines has put it, that the system itself must be considered sooner or later with reference to the proper administration of all the affairs of the prison; then, the moment the gentlemen who manage prisons come to see their obligations, they can in a few months change the management and the whole drift of labor. For instance, it would be possible at Trenton, instead of assign- ing the convicts all to some contractor, to step into Philadelphia, Newark, and New York, and arrange for piece-work to be made, which no con- trtictor should ever see, and which no hired person should ever have any thing to do with within the prison, and in four months one-half of all the convicts in Trento)||prison would be put on industries which a strictly business-man would make yield more to the State than the contractor can possibly give to the State, with all the risks they take from the very awkward relation they sustain to the value of industries; that is, a contractor can leldom get the value of a man on his industry. Mr. Brockway can get twice the value of a boy iu the Reformatory that any State prison in this State can get A little boy that would cut up his chair-bottoms, and never bottom over two chairs a day (they could not whip it out of him), iu one of the penitentiaries in this State was pointed out to me one day as a boy who insisted upon going to school. They had opened an evening school at my request, and a few gentlemen maintained it. The authorities permitted it in this great penitentiary. The boy pleaded that he might go to school; and the teacher of the school, an unpaid man, referred the matter to the superintendent of the peniten- tiary, and the superintendent approved of his going to school. One week after that, the boy was bottoming six chairs a day. He did not know how to read and write. When this gentleman asked him why he wanted to go to school so badly (before he had got his promise), he said, "I want to do something: I don't want to be in prison all my life " I simply mention that to show, in the simplest way, how a child's mind reasons in regard to this matter. The Chaiuman. What prison was that? Dr. Harris. That is at Syracuse. That is a common experience. Now, the fact that we treat the convict as though he had ceased to be even a fallen man, and grind, him instead of enticing him, is something that we cannot comprqJ|end in mere conversation. You have got to be in the prison at night and in the morning ; you have got to be in the prison when they go to their workshops and to their meals. I believe we ought to work prisoners more hardly ^an we do ; that is, more con- stantly, and with a larger result. Dr. Wines. Through motive ? Dr. Harris. We cannot do it except through motive. The fact is, the method that is adopted yields the State of New York, for picked men, fifty cents a day; one contractor having a thousand picked men. You go into the same kind of business with the same quality of muscle, where substantial citizens are swinging a capital of some two million dollars, and employing some nine hundred men, — I will not mention the name, but I have visited their place, — and you see that the employers have no difficulty in getting from two dollars and a half to three dollars and a half a day out of those men right through and through. For instance, in the moulding-shop I found over three hundred men and boys employed. Why do they turn out such beautiful work, and so much more rapidly? Motives are brought to bear. What are they? They are motives that we can bring to bear in every prison in the State, and they are bringing such motives to bear in Japan, where they are giving ten per cent of all that a man can earn after he has served a hundred days in the prison. You will find the Japanese representative in this city, who will show you 258 that. The self-interest of the government, the reasonable philosophy of people -who are in public authority, warrants the invasion of this system. I confess I look with absolute abhorrence upon the whole contract sys- tem, because it is a shifting of responsibility. Kentucky farms out its entire penitentiary; first for the muscle; second, for the preachifig of the gospel and the consolation. It is all farmed out in one job. The whole thing is a contract. It is so in Texas. Now, what is the result ? If you could listen to a mere recital of what a fellow-citizen of ours a few days ago said to me, from the result of a recent visit of a man of earnest ortho- doxy in all the matters of morals, you would not sit with dry eyes. What is that prison? It is a hell on earth. The Chairman. You are referring to the prison in Texas? Dr. Harris. In Kentucky; and I know it is true. I know the history of it. I have not gone into the other particulars; bul|( am speaking of that which results from farming; that which appeals to us as fellow- citizens. You to-day are sane men, with healthy brains and healthy muscles, and with hopes for the future. Suppose, that, a_year from this time, I should hear that you had fallen, and become criminal? Am I to cease to sympathize with you because that has occurred, or because your son, who would not learn, has become a criminal? You go through the State prisons, and you will find that you are dealing with such people all the way through; and the moment you give their education and their punishment to any other than stern hands, and minds of rectitude, you do a wrong to those men that mak.es them habitual criminals. The inten- sity of the vindictiveness and the depravity of men who do fall, — and mind yon, any man can fall, I don't care who it is: we are all suscepti- ble of that fall which makes others criminals, — let certain influences prevail, and the moment you do make a criminal repeat his crime when he has opportunity, then you do a wrong to society, and fill the ranks of crime. And that is one of the greatest dangers of our present situation, that in our willingness to let these men, who would shoot us if we tread upon their rights almost, that is, the men who hav# come to feel that the franchises of the prisons belong to the party, — I am speaking of the average politician who lives by party, all parties alike, that ever had power, — the moinent you let them govern the prisons, the moment the governor dare not assert his own independence, and say the prisons must not be subjected to partisan interference at aU, then the whole prison sys- tem becomes embarrassed and troubl^ome. Now, I do hold that it is desirable for us who can give testimony to say — #nd 1 think Dr. Wines would bear me witness — that we cannot justify ourselves in saying that this interference can be even allowed to continue. It need not continue another year in any one of the l%rthem. Middle, or Eastern States. There is no reason why it should continue. The present character of governors warrants the belief, that, if you dare be bold and right (and we all dare be bold and right), the voice of rectitude will be heard. And there is nothing very difficult about it. I dare say Gov. McClellan to-day has as right a mind about this as any man in the State. I dare say tlie gov-, ernor of Connecticut has just as right a mind. I don't know whether a man as governor will dare to be right all alone, when commissioners, and prison officials, and prison experts, and persons who are obliged to have some knowledge of the criminal classes, blink at their duty; for a governor is human. That is all I would wish to communicate concerning the contract system, because I believe there is a better way, without violating any contract, and finishing up old contracts; and very likely some excellent model contractors in particular work can continue hereafter. I don't know any thing about that. I see no objection to a man like Mr. Griffith in Baltimore, who is the best prison philosopher in Maryland, in some respects (he is a man who would do justice to everybody), — I don't see any objection to his having a contract for manufacturing carpets. So 259 long as Maryland is managed by politicians, he is better than any political hack they will put in office. But let Maryland lift itself out of the mire, and govern its prisons as you will demand that your prisons shall be gov- erned in these three States, and Mr. Griffith will wLsh to change his rela- tion: he will wish to come into another relation to the prisons than that of a man who must be looked upon as having an interest in making the most money he can. He is such a man, fortunately, like the man that I first mentioned to you, who for twenty-six years has been the same excel- lent model superintendent on a high salary, hired by the contractor, and the contractors could not make their money without him. He can run the prison when the prison officers are all drunk, as 1 have seen him do it. I am speaking of the penitentiary in which the superintendent was for four years a drunkard, with whom I dare not converse unless I learned that he was well. The Chairman. You did not give us the name, I believe. Dr. Hakkis. The Erie County Penitentiary. The Chairman But the name of the model superintendent? Dr. Harris. Mr. Page, — the superintendent of the saddlery and hardware work. Dr. Wines. Not the superintendent of the penitentiary? Dr. Harris. No, the superintendent of the work. Jlere the contrac- tors have saved the penitentiary a great deal. The party that was in power not five years ago kept a man in that was drunk half the time; and finally he had to leave the country: he had taken things that were not his own. He has gone, and yet this superintendent of work kept the machinery going. I was there at times when he was doing it. He kept the prisoners in order, and he was making money for his contractors in a common workhouse. But when you come to look at the contract system with any degree of allowance, and say that it is fit for a civilized people, and that it should be the ruling method in our prisons, I must say that I think the whole subject ought to be restudied. And accusations against prisoners to-day in the State of New York are made through the con- tractors' agents. A man is accused; he is punished: another man is a pet. Talk about it as you will, the warden — unless he happens to be a man like Mr. Welles, who dares to be greater than his contractor — is to a certain extent subject to the contractor; but, if he is greater than the contractor, he goes out of office. Now, these contractors do interfere with labor in that way that makes labor a misapplied method of discipline; yet they do succeed in keeping the men in order under various circumstances where the prison would go to ruin. Even the contractors themselves on a critical moment, when a riot arises, and a raving man is destroying valuable machinery, — the contractors themselves recently proved them- selves to be superior men, knowing what to do, how to behave, and how to preserve order in their shops, much better than any of the hired men of the State. That is our situation to-day. We cannot break the sys- tem, and the contractors have a right to their contracts until they are ended, undoubtedly; but the influence of the contracts in prisons is filling the ranks of crime, and will keep them full and increasing. I care not how you touch the contract system, you cannot bring it into such rela- tions to the great penal and moral purposes which should repress crime, and should, if possible, bring the prisoner to a better mind, and induce him to avoid crime, which is a possible thing. Montesinos proved that (I don't know how large a per cent he gives); and Mr. Cordier proved it also. Speaking of the manner of reaching that question of restraining, we cannot do it through a contract method, can we ? [To Dr. Wines.] Df. Wines. Not always. Dr. Harris. In this State we have got now fully twice as many felon- convicts as five millions of people with our system of education, and re- ligious advantages, and the flourishing condition of industries in the State of New York, should warrant for a civilized people. We have twice as 260 many felon-convicts, to say nothing of the uncaught criminals. How shall we reduce this number ? The little flourishing county of Gloucester- shire reduced its felon-convicts in a short period, so that they were only two out of six per cent. The Chairman. How did it reduce it? Dr. Harris. By taking hold of the duty towards the prisoner. Dr. Wines. Yes; and the young, — saving the children. Dr. Harris. It has all been brought about in our short memories — within a brief period. Dr. Wines. Within a generation. Dr. Harris. Within fifteen years. Dr. Wines. No; not within fifteen years. Dr. Harris. We will say twenty-five years. Now, how will we re- duce the relative proportion of the offending classes to those who live without crime? Is that duty before our minds at this moment in treat- ing of prison-labor? If so, we have got to reach out and find how to make these industries contribute to the establishment of hopes and purposes, and consciousness of an ability and a duty to support life by honest labor. I have conversed with some twelve thousand different people who have done crime. I have conversed with upwards of fourteen hundred separately and entirely alone — in a room alone — who have done feloni- ous crime, in one period of fifteen months exactly. I have been deeply impresssed with the deplorable condition of the criminal, as needing influences that even in my life I consider brought by the necessities of industry and habits of diligence. Here is a man (who is educated, or un- educated, as the case may be) who needs these influences: he feels none of them. He does his duty, he does his task; and if you praise some particular work that he does, privately to him, and show him the excel- . lence it possesses, he will sometimes even drop a tear, showing the intense susceptibility to appreciation. A girl that was broiight from one of your Connecticut cities to a house of industry at Middletown was making a dollar a day one day when I Visited the little shop, where she was work- ing alone at a certain trade, and going to school five hours. She was brought there in manacles, and her conversation and her disposition seemed beyond all good influence. In three months she was earning her dollar a day; and she was so pleased when she found that a gentlemen of Con- necticut and I were attracted by the excellence of her work (which certainly evinced great taste and great ability, though she had not the mechanism to perfect it, but she had all the aptitude), — she was so pleased that the expression of her gratification was one of the most pleasant recollections of a day's visit to that institution. I inquired about her a short time ago, to know what had become of her (this was in 1873 that it occurred) : I learned that she had gone out and done well, and if you ask Mr. Rockwell about her, or Rev. Mr. Bradford, you will find that that particular girl has been saved. By what ? Not altogether by learn- ing to read and write, not altogether by the school, but by the use they made of industry. At this time her conversation was so bad that by a mere slip, by an automatic badness which she had of vulgarity, loose language that she learned in the streets — for she was a prostitute, an utterly ruined child — that she was kept alone at her work; no other girl was in her presence, she was entirely away, and yet treated so that she did not feel it severely; that is, she was classified in such a manner that she might be saved. Now, what we are doing for children we can bring, in principle, to bear through all the ranks of crime. There is no difficulty in making our prisons pay much better than they do, because we see in the handling of a particular group (where the whole problem can be reduced to something that an individual handles) that the subject becomes at once open to business-like treatment. The industries can be varied, so that instead of having seven or eight industries, or nine, as we have in the State of New York in the State prisons, you might,' as Dr. Wines has said, have a large number. 261 Dr. WijfBa. Co]. Montesinos had forty-three in one prison. Mr. Bettle. I have gathered, from the very interesting remarks that I have heard you deliver, this fact, that the success of any system very largely depends upon the character of men that administer that system ; that under a contract system or under a public-account system, the interests of the State, the interest of the criminals, and thereby the interests of society, will be made or marred largely by the men that administer that system. You have adduced examples here showing the evils, in some cases, of the contract system from intermeddling perniciously with prison- ers; and you have adduced examples to show how they have saved from ruin a prison, under the present system, administered by State officials.. In view of the transparent weaknesses of human nature, and of the diffi- culties which will always occur in getting the right kind of rpien in office, is not the whole matter largely remanded back to individual capability and honesty, and desire of the men who administer any system, whether its influence shall be for good, and not for evil? Dr. Harris. I am completely of the opinion that an affirmative answer is justified, and I closed my note to Mr. Allinson by saying that prison-keeping must be made an expert)(pication. Perhaps the improve- ments must begin at this very point of labor, and I see the importance of beginning at this point, wherever I visit a prison ; so that my personal views are entirely in accord with the answer you would elicit from me; but that is not the point that I was asked to respond to : therefore I have not alluded to it in any other than these general terms. Mr. Bettle. It seemed to be logically deduced from the tone of your remarks. Dr. Harris. There is not the slightest, doubt that the Erie-county Penitentiary would have gone to the dogs, or would have become a Gol- gotha, since Mr. Fulton left it, except for the great excellence of the contractors and their hired superintendent. Were all the officers incapa- ble to-day, he would have a personal hold as the manager of all this machinery, but these are short-term men; and felons are all mixed up together, you know, as we manage our local penitentiaries. Mr. Bettle. Ta^e Elmira, where Mr. Brockway administers the affairs of the prison, I suppose a model man, and one largely acceptable, from his aptitude for his position, and who is given almost a carte blanche to do as he pleases. Suppose Mr. Brockway should die, wouldn't it be a matter of very great difficulty to supply his place? and does not now the success of that experiment largely depend upon Mr. Brockway himself, and his particular aptitude and talent ft)r the position that he fills? Dr. Harris. I must say that I know (and from a very strong attach- ment to the man too), that it is a part of his plan and duty to so organize his affairs, that, were he to die to-night, the machinery would run on; and the managers have never neglected for a single day their duty to such an extent, that there would be any collapse or disarrangement in such a case. Any great workman, hke Mr. Brockway, wUl not let any thing depend upon his own individuality. Mr. Brockway was brought there for the purpose of impressing his greSt experience and individuality in all respects upon this prison, because he is a specially peculiar man, as Gen. PiUsbury and his father in New Hampshire were. Mr. Bettle. A man with those designs does not always carry out the principle. Dr. Harris. I will answer that by mentioning this. If you are acquainted with Gen. Meigs, the quartermaster-general of the United States, you would say that it is not strange, that, after all, the war was a success, though at times the pontoon-bridges did not get in place at Fred- ericksburg; and, if Gen. Meigs were to die to-day, the methods of his office, the construction of the public service under his hands, have received such impress, that his life is not necessary to the continuance of the work. It is just so with Mr. Brockway; and there need be no anxiety for what 262 may occur in the appointments of Providence in that respect. We have got to have such men : there is the first point. We have got to have such men, and to consider the duty of maintaining a considerable number of men as prison-masters.' That is the very refrain of these last_ two great congresses in Europe; and I think you will all agree that the instruction of prison-masters is the great necessity of the country. Dr. Wines. Yes. Dr. Harris. Now, we have such prison-masters in our country. We have enough to go to work with, and make an entire success. Mr. Bettle. Has it not been your experience, — I think it has been the experience of many, — that any enterprise conducted by State offi- cials languishes, and fails of its proper consummation? — in other words, that the system of public responsibility, I mean the system administered by public officials, open to the changes of partisan politics frequently (and while that is very deplorable, I do not see how you can exactly avoid it), that the system of public responsibility leaves an opportunity for a very great evU? It seems that men who are ordinarily honest in their relations with other men, the Moment they become State officers, or deal with the State, become a little tRshonest, and that, at any rate, if they are not dishonest, they are not so economical, and do not give their minds to the thing, as they would if their private interests were consulted. Dr. Harris. We have a grand exception to that terrible experience of the State in the military service. Mr. Bettle.' It is the exception? Dr. Harris. It is the exception. What is the reason? There is a reason for it that we can bring to bear, if we dare make a general efEort. The military service offers a vocation and a reward for continued service, and for honorable record. It does not offer money, to any great extent; it offers recognition based upon merit and upon the value of a record. Mr. Settle. Even that is largely dependent upon the life or death of a superior officer. " Dr. Harris. Until we have prison officers who know that their record is to be defended, who know that their record is made for the State, and has a value, a recognized value, in connection with the State, I doubt if we shall get good prison administration. Of course we get a great many collateral questions all around our main question the moment we proceed to examine the method of appointment of officers or the maintenance of the service in our prisons; but we can hold prison officials, and even gov- ernors to their responsibility ; wexan hold them to their duty so that a governor will not dare use the prison for his personal purposes. The Chairman. Would the conflict between free labor and convict- labor be any less, if the prisons were conducted by the State, than where they are conducted by contractors ? Dr. Harris. In the State of New York, where we have the largest number of convicts and the greatest variety of industries (unless New Jersey has greater, but where we have an average, certainly, for the flour- ishing portions of our country), I say understandingly, having gone over the ground to see what are our industries, and conversed with nearly a thousand great organizers and capitalists of the industries, with reference to their concern in men that do reform, — I say understandingly, that with lOur four thousand felon-convicts (five thousand nearly) that must be worked under wise administration, and a distribution of those industries (taking the catalogue that you can put in the open market, and sell by contract even, and those that you can manage without contractors), thft distribution of these prison-industries within the State of New York could be so conducted that not one capitalist or industry need feel, or would have ground of complaint, that the convict-industries oppressed the free industries, because they could always be kept below ten per cent of the total of the number of men employed in any given industry. The Chairman. You rather avoid my question, not intentionally of 263 course. The question directly is this (your 'reply answers another ques- tion), that is, you would avoid any conflict by a great diversity of indus- tries ? Dr. Harris. By a sufficient diversity. The Chairman. Is there a greater opportunity for diversity of in- dustries under the State ^account than under the contract system? Dr. Harris. Very much greater; for instance, in the Rhode-Island State Prison one day, when industries were at a low ebb, after passing through a series of gangs of men with the president of the new Prison Board, I sat down with him, and looked back through the yards and sheds where these workers were on unusual industries, and I said, " How has Capt. Vial (the superintendent) managed to get these unusual things in V " — " Oh," he says, " he has no difficulty in finding jobs that ought to be done, that can be done best, in prison-yards. This is being done for such a manufacturer, one gang of men at one thing, and another at another, a special line of industries that a gang of men of ten or fif teed ca,n work at." You go to the Rhode-Island Penitentiary to-day, and you will see no idle men ; you will be surprised to see how a little Yankee ingenuity is made to flow out through the -daily orders and modes of the prison-master. The Chairman. Mr. Pillsbury is a State official, is he not? Dr Harris. Yes, sir, superintendent of prisons. The Chairman. Is it not the intention of Mr. Pillsbury to introduce single industries into his prisons, and thereby create great manufactories of each prison? Dr. Harris. I don't know Mr. Pillsbury's intentions. The Chairman. Doesn't it look as if that was his intention, taking Auburn, Clinton, and Sing Sing? Dr. Harris. I am not the critic of any particular State, but, if under oath, I should t^U what I know of each State that I visit, not otherwise; that is, for such a purpose, because it would involve the opposition of views upon questions of policy. The policy of our State of New York is not safe for long continuance. It is a success in respect to certain busi- ness particulars, and it certainly commands the attention of every citizen/ and of a great many public officials. / The Chairman. You have in Sing Sirjg a contract for a thousand men on stoves, have you not? / Dr. Harris. I think there are a thousand men employed, pefliaps more : I don't know. / The Chairman. The entire number of men at Clinton ar^engaged in hatting, are they not ? / Dr. Harris. I don't know what the number is; but about four hun- dred is supposed to be the limit. / The Chairman. Is there any other industry than hajifing carried on there? / Dr. Harris. No productive industry. y' / The Chairman. Then, is not the tejMigncy of ime policy to concen- trate single industries in single prisgjja^ j Dr. Harris. That is the simple result of an, attempt to make the balance-sheet acceptable fipaileially. It has no other intention or mean^ ing known to me. I-hSve visited the prison a great many times since the new system ^^as'organized. It is ai plain as day that it is a siipple question of getting before the public with a balance-sheet that is accepta- ble in justtne one particular, that it shows the jbalance on the right side. The Chairman. Then, take human| naturejas it is, put your contract- ors all outside of your prison-walls, have no cohtract-labor in your prison, would not the same influence to make tke balance of the balance-sheet appear on the right side influence men in the/employ of the State to con- centrate labor in the prisons, in order to make it pay? Dr. Harris. On the contrary; certainly pn tijie contrary. 264 The Chairman. Why would any other influence affect other men than Mr. Pillsbury ? He is a State officer. Dr. Haukis. You put two propositions together; viz., to concentrate labor, and to secure a result. Were a manufacturer, a man accustomed to the management of investments, and making capital show its return of clear gain every quarter, to take into consideration to-day the muscle and the sense that is available for production in the State of New York in the prisons, he would deliberately call to his aid men who could man- age not less than twenty industries, and he would call to his aid men who could make a success in their specialty. He would certainly do it, or he would break. The Chaikman. You are acquainted with the State prison at Thomas- ton, Me. ? Dr. Harris. Yes. I never have visited it. The Chairman. Wasn't it the policy of Mr. Rice to make his bal- ance show upon the right side of the ledger ? Dr. Harris. Undoubtedly. And undoubtedly he introduced an indus- try that in that particular region had, by an accident, not by the wisest prevision, come to be an exclusive industry. The same at JefEersonville, Ind. .It may become convenient, as in Southern Indiana, to take up wagon-making and coach-making. It may be that men will take just such a short-sighted view of the management of prison-industries. In New Hampshire, for instance, they have made a good thing at making bedsteads as an almost exclusive industry for a great many years. It is a mistaken view. We are all learning something; for even Mr. Brockway in his experiments went so largely into cabinet-making, that he tells you it was not the best thing to do to throw tlie whole industry of the prison into one line of production. What I state to yon is true in the experi- ence of all countries, 1 think. Dr. Wines, I think, must know better in detail than I can, having seen those European experiments; but the dis- tribution of labor is based upon the various capaeitaes of men who are in prison. They vary all the way from the idiot, and the man broken by alcoholism, up to the man of the largest talent and great brain. In order to use all this talent and all this sense, you must distribute the indus- tries. You converse with such a prison official as Col. Grove was in Ohio (a regular military man), or such a man as Gen. Pillsbury was, in his lai'ge experience, arid you will find that it is settled in the convictions of the behfi;prison men, that you must have a great variety of labor in order to secure the interest and attention, and the beneficial results of labor upon convicts. The Chairman. AVe admit that. The point we are arriving at now is, Under which system can that diversity of industries be sustained? You say at Concord, N.H., Mr. Pillsbury concentrated all the available strength of the prison upon one industry,- — bedsteads. You say at Thom- aston. Me., Mr. Bice concentrated his men upon carriage-makmg practi- cally. Now, in one is the State account (in Maine), and in the other is the contract system ; and yet both arrive at the same result, — concen- tration. In the Maine provision didn't we see an attempt to arrive at another result, which is arrived at at Concord; to wit, — financial success through fraud and deception? Dr. Harris. I can only say that each of these .lessons has strength- ened the conviction of those who study the physiological necessities of these questions, that we must have a distribution of industries in order to avail ourselves of the greatest moral results of labor, that these are all mistakes, and to me they seem to be stupid mistakes, like that mistake in Canada, which put the whole of that great prison upon the making of rolling-stock, — cars. It fairly broke the capitalists that undertook it, and they had to negotiate with the government, and sell out. It was a great mistake. It is a mistake as regards men. Why does Montesinos have forty odd industries ? He was reaching a result, and he had the 265 genius of a man who had long dealt with his fellow-men as a military officer. Mr. Bettle. "Why does Mr. Brockway confine his men to two indus- tries, — two hundred and seventy-five making brushes, and a hundred in hollow-ware. And he is about to double the number. Dr Harris. Mr. Brockway has no control over that matter: it is in the hands of the manager. Mr. Bettle. That is public account? Dr. Harris. Public account. He began with sixty inmates; and re- peated visits which I have made there convinced me that this distribution of industries there is certain to be a necessity ; and conversation with the manager proves that I am entirely sustained in that. With reference to that doubling of the number oa a particular business, the vaiieties of labor will certainly be established then. You ask Mr. Brockway, you ask certain managers. The manager is the one to say whether another industry at any time shall be introduced. The superintendent simply obeys orders. Mr. Bettle. I understood him to say, when I was there, that he intended to double the number of men engaged upon hollow-ware. Dr. Harris. That is the intention of the managers, I know: and Mr. Brockway simply speaks of what the managers are doing; and he is their alter ego. Mr. Bettle. The tendency of concentration seems to exist there under public account. Dr. Harris. I have known that institution from its inception, and can say that it never will result, if the managers continue their present temper of investigation of the questions which they have to settle. They have got to settle certain questions. They have settled one which you mentioned, upon a basis which will give them trouble. I need not refer to the details of it. Mr. Brockway is not responsible for that: it is not his view that it should be done. The Chairman. Isn't it a fact that long contact with the criminal classes tends to harden men, unless they are humanitarians, like yourself and Dr. Wines? Dr. Harris. No, sir. A good man, a man himself moral and sound, never allows that as the result. Witness the service in hospitals of phy- sicians. Witness the service of our oldest and best prison physicians in the world. It occurs in men who are annoyed and made selfish by their duties; and such men should not be selected for the service. It will oc- cur in ordinary men ; but it does not occur in the man who is fit from the first to be a prison official. The Chairman. Isn't it the ordinary men who are, as a rule, under officers in prisons? Dr. Harris. One of the oldest prison-officers, and the most impor- tant in all Switzerland, is Dr. GuiUaume, a medical gentleman of the very largest acquaintance with prison industries, necessities, philosophy, duty, discipline, &c. Every thing he does and says, and all his instruc- tions up to the present time, show that all ranks of criminals are appre- ciated by him. The moment you look for men fit to be permanently officers of the prisons, you will find them with ready ear to listen to the plea of the friendless, and consider the wants of those that need to be aided and strengthened by the prison officials in his relation to the prison. I wish to put in my objection to the view that is entertained, because the difficulty is, that we allow men to be brought in contact with prisoners, who, as military officers, would have discipline by setting worthy young soldiers up on a barrel, and making them an object of ridicule. We see military officers brought into prisons who are not of the right kind ; but when you see the riglit kind of a military officer brought into a prison, there is nothing of the kind. The Chairman. You spoke some time ago in regaxd to educating 266 prisoners. To which do you attach the greatest importance, — the educa- tion in the ordinary book-learning, or the education in trade, the ability to sustain one's self by the labor of his hands after he is dismissed from prison ? , _ Dr. Harris. I think I have another kind of education in mind: it is the industrial education, to effect a moral discipline, just as in the case of truant-children of Boston and New York, — au industrial education in the carpenter-shop, with tools, &c., which you may see now in some of the new efforts in Boston, and which will be introduced in all our cities before long, to teach these truants something that will bring Out their better qualities, though they may not learn letters. An industrial education which should begin the day the prisoner gets into prison, an industrial education in one way or another, even though he may not have had a collegiate education, is the thing I have in mind. The education in letters is a comparatively subordinate question. Of the thirty-three thousand found in prisons in the last census, something over six thousand, I think, could not write. In footing up the total of all our penitentiaries year by year, for ten years, I find that just about thirty per cent cannot read and write. I speak of the six penitentiaries which have young pris- oners, and rather the minor classes of felons. Now, it so happens that the greatest want of these persons is not the knowledge to read and write, but an industrial training plus a certain amount • of education which can be wrought into them That is the idea, — that the education should be an industrial education, with a knowledge of Jetters, for every one. Those that cannot read and write very shortly evince a desire or an inaptitude to learn ; and it is found that the greater number who can- not read and write will, under proper advice and direction in prisons, learn to read and wiite. Some will not. Those that will learn can be greatly benefited through what they can be taught in books. Those that will not learn (and the number is large: probably it is not half of those that do not at first know how to read and write) ; but those that will not learn belong to the class of persons that can only be taught morally and industrially, and that is a sad class of persons : they belong in the low- est ranks and the most dangerous ranks of criminals, or they belong to the imbepiles. It is not the main question how to get in the school education, but how to get in the whole education, — the moral pressure of reward for duty and merit, of recognition, of penalty, all of which goes to make up the prison system, and which is not complicated. It is just as simple as the management of a father with his wayward children. If he had two or three different crops of them, from different mothers, they may evince a wide difference of temperament. The Chairman. Is this industrial education, in your opinion, disad- vantageous, or. otherwise, to the free artisan and laborer? Dr. Harris. No; for this very reason, as Sir Walter Crofton showed many years ago, and as the prison commissioners in Ireland, and others, have testified. I can show it in the printed reports, where the question is up. What shall be done about the industries, what trades shall men fol- low? Men who have a knowledge of a trade before they go to prison, or an occupation, if it is a useful and honorable one, are quite sure to return to that occupation, no matter what trade they have learned in prison: therefore the learning of a trade in prison does not go to in- crease the total ranks of the trade-class to the extent of the number that have learned the trade in prison. That is an important fact. I will not descant upon it, because I have recently published something on the sub- ject, which T wiU place in your hands ; but the fact is, they generally re- turn to any good occupation they followed before, — the farmer to his farm, the clerk to his clerical duties, and so on. But the influence of an industry to such persons, the influence of steady toil, is a separate thing from the mere learning of something by which he is to live in the ■iereaftef. But those persons who have never learned anything before will not unfrequently follow the occupation that they learn in prison. 267 The Chairman. Now, in summing up, if I understand you right, you say you would abolish contract-labor in prison just so soon as the present contracts expire? Di'. Harris. I should not, unless I could bring to bear such a pres- sure upon the parties who govern in States, that they would attempt a general reform. I would say that there are certain industries, and there are cei'tain States in which there are certain necessities (which I think you must all have thought of more than I), which require, that, in order to keep up the industries steadily, a certain amount of labor under con- tract (through piece-work, or some other method of getting it), may be found necessary. For instance, we will take the industry that you have in Connecticut so largely, — that of wire- weaving or wire-manufacturing. I dare say that those who hold the patents might for a tim? do better than jthe State would do ; and yet it would be merely a question of tem- porary expediency, without establishing a permanent system or a long contract. What I say is, that there are certain trades, — the weaving of wire cloth on a large scale in one of our State prisons, which I watched one day with interest to see what it led to; and from my inquiries about the learning of the trade, the difficulties of managing the stock, &c., the weaving of wire cloth on a large scale, I think, was manifestly in better hands than the State could immediately put it. The Chairman. Then, in order to get this answer in concise form, you would say, until public opinion can be educated up to the required standard, you would maintain the contract system? Dr. Harris. With limitations, certainly. The Chairman. Professor Francis Wayland, president of the State Prison Association of Connecticut, and chairman of the Board of State Prison Directors of Connecticut, is with us by special invitation. We will listen to whatever Prof(jssor Wayland has to say in regard to con- tract-labor. He understands the special points of our inquiry, and will confine himself to those, so far as he can. Professor Wayland. In the first place, I mean to be very brief, and I will get to what I think is the heart of the question at once. I under- stand now that there are three commissions, from three different States, engaged in substantially the same inquiry. Now, as to the general inves- tigation, it seems to me that you are to deal with the state of things as you find them, and also with the probabilities. Now, to commence at once the contrast between the system of contract and public employment. It is, I think, conceded by all sensible men who have looked into the , question, that, in order that the public- account system should be success- ful, it must be under non-partisan management. Well, is State-prison management anywhere in the United States to be under non-partisan control? Is there any probabiHty in the immediate future, in any such future as you have got to deal with and take into consideration, that it will be non-partisan ? Is it worth while for this Commission, or any commission engaged in this investigation, to go into an investigation of an ideal system? Is it a wise expenditure of your time? Under the best practicable conditions, we are very far from ideal management of State prisons. Perhaps, in the matter of penal reform, there has been less progress in the last twenty-five years than any other subject to which philanthropy has devoted its attention in this country. Abroad there has been very great improvement; but in this country we are substantially where we were twenty-five years ago as to the system. Of course, in many cases the prisons are better. Mr. Brockway's experiment at El- mira is an experiment to which we all look with a great deal of interest; but it is confined to inmates who have committed the first offence. Now, the two advantages claimed in favor of the State-employment system are, that it will tend to greater diversity of interest, and that it will tend, as I understand it, more to the reform of the prisoner. Now, what is the fact about that ? We are dealing with what is, and what is likely to be; and 268 as has been intimated, and as has been called out by questions (and only by questions), the tendency all over the United States, wherever public employment exists, is to concentration; and why is this? Andthat is exactly one thing that we have got to confront in this investigation; because, in every State in the Union, north of Mason and Dixon's Line ceitainly, the public say, " If possible, you must make our prison self- supporting." The public say, " We decline to be taxed for the support of the State prisons." It does not make any difference, it seems to me, whether this is sound or not. It exists, and is likely to exist, and it is a factor you must take into account in comparing the two systems: therefore we must say as to that, that the diversification of industries is no more likely to happen under a public-employment system than it is under the contract system. It does not exist, and is not likely to, and there is no reason why it should, when this pressure is constantly being brought to bear upon the authorities in charge of the prison to nlake it self-sustaining. Well, is it self-sustaining? It never has been, and there are reasons why it never should be, bearing in mind all the while that you cannot have a non-partisan management, that you have not, and are not likely to have ; and even if you have — I want to say a word on that point hereafter. The apparent show of profit in favor of the publie- aeeount system is entirely deceptive and illusive; and, wherever it has occurred, it has been, I venture to say, — I say it without any fear of successful contradiction, — by the manipulation of inventories. The State property has been so inventoried as to make a profit appear where there was an absolute loss. In a most recent case, where, for a period of fifteen years, the balance had been ostensibly to the credit side, a non- partisan commission discovered that the State was in debt something like a hundred thousand dollars; and that is within a few months. Articles were inventoried at their original market-price ten or fifteen years ago, when they were actually not worth more than the kindling-wood that they would come to when they were split up. There is no sort of exag- geration about that. Utterly unsalable, out-of-fashion, useless things were inventoried at their original' price; and a great many claims against the State came in which had not been paid. So that, as far as profit is concerned, as far as diversification of industries is concerned, there is no advantage in the public-account system, as things at the present tirne exist, or are likely to exist. Now, as to the prisoners: and here you will allow me to make another suggestion. No one State can legislate for any other State. Uniformity can only be secured by congressional legis- lation, if that were possible; and the conditions are entirely different in each State. Take the State of New York, with which Dr. Harris is more familiar tlfen any one else, and from which he selects his illustrations, naturally, more readily than from any other. We will compare that with the State with which I am familiar (New York and Connecticut). The State prisons of New York are fed and filled from the houses of correc- tion. The highest prison authority in this State told me, that, in the whole State of New York, there was not a jail that could be compared in any respect with our county jail in New Haven. He says there is not one of them which is not a school of crime. That is what fills the New- York State prisons, and the immense amount of foreign populatioii of the worst sort (and all kinds come first to New York ; and the best go West, and the poorest remain in the State) : those two causes combined give an exceptionally abnormal number of convicts in this State. Now, take the State of Connecticut. We have about two hundred and fifty convicts, of those, about two hundred and twenty are employed in labor under contract, at fifty cents a day, — not for picked men, as Dr. Harris sayt about New-York prisons, but "fifty cents a day for every man who is not employed in work about the prison, or is not on the sick-list in the hospital. That is the state of things, of course, with which the Connecti- cut part of this Commission has to deal. I think I know that prison, and 269 I think I know it perfectly, and 1 don't think it possible under the best condition of the public-employment system, for those men to be better employed. Now, what does Dr. Harris say, as far as you can get at it in definite and exact terms, about the object of labor ? The objects of labor in prisons are not primarily to prepare them for labor outside, for two reasons. One reason he gives, that is, that the men, when they go out of prison, if they are reformed, go back into the kinds of labor to which they were accustomed before; second, if they are mechanics, it is almost impossible to get them into labor with other mechanics. The laborer is the man of all others in the world who is the bitterest enemy of the convict ; he wiU not work at the same bench with him, if he knows it ; he wiU not be in the same shop with him ; he will not give him a chance. That is the literal fact; and the trouble we have in find- ing employment for reformed convicts is, that in workshops the man, no matter how well he behaves, no matter what his professions of reform may be, his employer says, " I will give you a chance," and his fellow- workmen says, " He shall not have a chance : " therefore we haVe to put them on farms. Last year, out of a hundred and sixteen prisoners who were discharged from the State prison, eighty-six gave promise of reform, and were provided with employment by our Connecticut Prison Association, mostly on farms. And what is the prospect of their reform ? Simply this, aside from any religious considerations, which are foreign to our present investigation, I suppose. When they went into prison, they had no habits of industry: their habits were of dishonesty and intem- perance. They have been there, on an average, long enough for their constitutions to have recovered from the taint (physically, I mean) of in- temperance : they have acquired the habit of regular hours, — regular hours of going to sleep, regular hours of rising, regular hours of meals, nutritious wholesome diet, habits of exercise, religious exercises on the sabbath. . That is the basis of their future reform ; not that they have learned this, that, or the other trade, but that they have got habits of labor which will be of service to them as long as they live. Then, still further, if jou will allow me to mention our own prison as an illustra- tion ; and here come in some of the limitations that Dr. Harris stated in answer to the closing question of the Chairman, that, under existing circumstances (and that was the result of the whole discussion, and the Chairman, as you notice, put it to him as a question to sum up all), -^ under existing circumstances, he thought the contract system best "under limitations." I agree to that; and the limitations that I suggest are these, — that the relation of the contractor, and the instructor that he employs, over the convicts, be such to the convicts, and such 'to the authorities of the prison, that the prisoner cannot be overreached or oppressed. The authorities should hold a steady hand over the instruc- tor; and here is a most significant fact, that the best system of rules that I ever saw to protect the prisoner from a dishonest or tyrannical contrac- tor were furnished by a contractor himself, and of his own motion. He says, " This seems to me to be a just thing, gentlemen, and I should like to see something of that kind done." Now, taking things as they are, it seems to me the inevitable partisanship, modified by the character of the party at the time, but still constantly existing; and then the further fact, which I have not mentioned yet, that there are certain duties which a warden owes to his convicts, certain qualifications that the successful warden must have, which render it possible for him to carry on the busi- ness of the prison. One or two remarks of Dr. Harris tended to this, which is the secret of all successful prison management, — that it should be personal, so far as possible ; that is, that the influence of the warden should be exerted upon the personal character and tendency and habits of individual prisoners, so far as possible. Of course, that is a business of itself; it is an employment of itself, and you have got to take the inevi- table tendency of the fact, — the fact, that, even if you find somewhere 270 , one particular man who could regulate matters so as to make a successful showing in favor of public employment, it is exceptional, — so exceptional as to be almost a miracle. I think Senator Bettle touched the exact point when said he that the system of public employment depends upon what especial man you have in charge. The system of contracts does not, because there the contractors, who represent business-men, can make their contracts, which run for three years, and make the best contract possible at the time. That does not require any great business sagacity. The instance of the military of the United States army and its officers was brought in. There are several important things there that do not exist anywhere else. In the first place, it is a life-tenure; in the second place, they are pensioned on retirement; in the third place, there is a court-martial, and no jury, which is the most important of all. Any Federal. officer who violates the laws of war is tried, not by twelve men who may be selected on the basis of not knowing any thing about that case or any other, but a court-martial of intelligent men; and their decisions are very rarely overturned. All those things remove the whole military department out of the range of possible analogy. It cannot by any possibility come in. •• Mr. Meyrick. Was not the case as to Maine an example of very con- siderable permanency in office of the existing warden ? He was in a great many years. Professor Wayland. Precisely, because there was not a change of party. The very first election of another man turned him out. His removal was almost the first one. Mr. Meyrick. Therefore, so long as the party continued in power, he might have gone on. Professor Wayland. Yes: that brings in two or three other things. It is said that it has been a growing complaint of the condition of things in that State prison, and that commissioners would have been appointed anyhow; but the result of that commission exploded the whole success of the State-employment system in Maine. The Chairman. Won't you give us your views in regard to the injury done under the present system, and whether that injury could be avoided, or be changed, under any other system ? Professor Wayland. Yes: I am glad you called my attention to that. It seems to me, — I don't know that I am here to put it in the way I am going to put it, but I know you will bear with me, ^if in New Jersey the kind of employment carried on in the State prison interferes disas- trously with existing forms of occupation, that is a question for that particular commission to deal with, and it is not for me to suggest how it should be done, unless the question is asked. In our State it is not contended by anybody, so far as I know, that the business of boot and shoe making, as carried on in that prison, has a disastrous effect upon tha,t branch or any other branch of industry in the State; and, so far as Connecticut is concerned, I conceive it to be a purely speculative ques- tion. Is not that so, Mr. Tweedy? The question how the convicts shall be employed is a purely speculative one ? Mr. Tweedy. In regard to its effect upon the labor in the State ? Professor Wayland. In any respect. Mr. Tweedy. It is a contingent question, yes. Professor Wayland. You call it contingent; I call it speculative. I suppose we mean about the same thing. Mr. Tweedy. The trouble is, there we have not the utmost confi- dence in the Board of Directors; that is, we have no confidence that they wiU take our view of the question, and keep the convicts employed in exactly the same occupation that they are now employed. What we would like is permanency in the occupation of the convicts there. Professor Wayland. I know. But in three years you may be out of the hat business, and all your friends may be out of. it. 271 Mr. Tweedy. We may be driven to it. Professor Wayland. No: you cannot be driven to it now. It is rather hard to bind us in the future, when capital is able to flow into any possible channel. Why should you say that the State Board of Employ- ment should be limited to some particular kind, when, in six months, you might not have any particular objection to it yourself? Dr. Wiues is, on general principles, right in this respect; and I think, if you consider it fairly, you wiU come practically to the same conclusion. If you con- cede the fact that any particular form of labor, any particular mode of employing or regulating labor, is beat, on the whole, for the convict, that is the best kind of labor to be employed, no matter what, for the time, happens to the industries outside. The importance to the pecuniary interests of the State, to the moral interests of the State, to every con- ceivable interest of the State, of having the convicts in prison under the best possible conditions, is superior to any outside pecuniary consideration. I think that is as demonstrable as any thing that is not in figures can be. Of course you cannot reduce it to statistics ; but when you consider the difference to the community between a skilful, unscrupulous convict, whether he is a bank-robber, or an incendiary, or a forger, or any thing, — the difference to the community between that man reformed and a reputable, self-supporting member of society, and an abandoned scoun- drel — when you consider that, I think you will agree that the question of his employment in the prison under the best conditions due to his reformation, overrides every thing else. The Chairman. You put that on the ground of benefit to all classes, the laboring and the manufacturing, after his dismissal from prison? Professor Wayland. I do. The moment you say that any given form of employment under any given conditions is the best for the convict, for his future reformation, that moment you have got the kind of employment, the kind of system, that you want. Mr. Murphy. Do you think it makes any difference at all to the convict what he works at? Is not one employment just as good as another to promote this very object that is so desirable? Professor Wayland. Yes, ^hink so, if it is good for his health. Mr. Murphy. That it doesfrot make any difference? Professor Wayland. I don't think it does. Mr. LiTCHMAN. When you speak of learning a trade, do you take into consideration fhe difficulty of a convict obtaiuing employment in that trade outside ? Professor Wayland. I don't think you can. How can you take it into account ? The trouble is, that, the moment the door of his cell is locked upon him, he is an outcast in the eye of his former respectable friends, or associates of his own class, more than he is in the eye of any other party in the whole community. That is the trouble. Mr. LiTCHMAN. But it is claimed, that, when he is released, by what he learus in prison he is given the means of obtaining employment. Professor Wayland. Yes, so he is, to a certain extent. Mr. LiTCHMAN. Supposing the trade that he works at in the prison is not carried on outside ? When he is discharged, he starts just where he was when he came in. Professor Wayland. No, he don't; far from it. He cannot obtain employment of the kind that he pursued in prison ; but he is better quali- fied to enter any field of labor than he was when he went in. Mr. LiTCHMAN. He comes into prison, and knows no trade. In the prison he learns a trade at which he cannot work when he is discharged. Where is he better off than when he went in? Professor Wayland. Because he has the habit of industry, an im- proved physical condition from the regular habits that he has followed, in obedience to the rules. Mr. TiERNEY. What percentage of prisoners are returned again to prison? 272 I Professor Wayland. That is impossible to say; not a very large percentage. That is one advantage in statistics, which England has over us. When a man is released from prison, a photograph is sent of him, and they can tell hira afterwards ; but here he may be recommitted in Texas, or anywhere else, and we cannot tell any thing about it. We keep up a correspondence in the Prison Association with them, or intend to. After they get into regular trades, they get into a new iield of respecta- bility, and they do not like to remember their prison associations : so they stop writing. I should think a larger proportion in prison were reformed than fifty per cent ; considerably larger. It depends a little upon what the crime is. If the crime is horse-stealing, they are almost never re- formed. There is some strange fascination about that. The iirst horse they see after they come out, that is not hitched, they steal. I could weary you for hours with my views of an ideal prison; but it does not seem to me that it is worth while here: we are not here for any such pur- pose. [Intkemission.] E. D. Cornell, president of the National Hat Finisher's Association, was next called upon. The Chairman. You have made, in your official capacity as presi- dent of a trade-union, this question of convict-labor a study. Will you give us the result of that study? Mr. Cornell. I have given it some thought as connected with the effect of convict-labor upon my own trade more particularly, and in a general way upon other industries. I think I can truly say that at pres- ent the convict-labor employed at hatting in the prisons of the country represents at least eleven per cent of the industry outside. I put it at that. I think it is a low figure; but I think it wjll reach that without any doubt. And it not only affects our interest in that per cent of work which it deprives us of ; but it depreciates the value of our goods in the market, and consequently depreciates the wages of the men. It is in that light that I hare been most interested in the subject, and still I have some general views as regards what I think might be adduced in the way of remedies, and if you gentlemen would cai-e to hear them, I will give them to you. The Chairman. You will proceed. Mr. Cornell. I think, gentlemen, to begin with, that the contract system is wrong in all points of view. I think it is wrong first to give any man. any individual, a contract in a prison, because I think that all the results of the labor of prisoners should go to the State, in order to reduce the taxes necessary to maintain them. That is the first ground. The second ground is, I think it is wrong to the industries outside rep- resented in the prison, because it not only deprives those industries of a certain amount of work, and depreciates the value of their goods and their wages ; but it also has a tendency to flood the market with large numbers of goods, on account of the contracts being given, in many instances, to large numbers of men, or to men who employ large numbers of convicts ; and consequently theyhave to manufacture largely in order to keep their hands employed the year round; and, when they have more goods to dispose of than there is a demand for in the market, they put them down as a natural consequence, and work them off at times when other manufacturers have to let their men stand idle, and consequently forestall the market, to the injury of those manufacturers and their men. That is the second point. The third is, that I think it is an injury to the convict (and I would have put that first, because really in my mind it is the very first point that should be taken into view) : I think it is an in- jury to the convict, for the simple reason that a convict employed on a contract is expected to employ all his time, or nearly all of it, at that 273 work. He would not have the time which he would have under another system to improve himself morally and mentally, because his work would be required; and under a different system he could have more time, because (the amount of labor he would have to do being all done in the interest of the State), it would not be necessary for him to exert himself so much, or work so many hours: consequently, he could have more time for instruction, more time for recreation, more time for those things which every man requires for his well-being. That is the reason why I think it is wrong to the convict. There is no good reason that can be adduced in favor of the convict contract system for the benefit of the prisoner, which he could not gain in any other system, and even more largely. That is what 1 think. I think, moreover, that the prisoner, if he was employed at an employment which he could learn thoroughly, not a branch, not a part, but where he could learn the whole of the trade, and particularly if it was a trade in which he could leave the large cities, and settle himself in the villages or towns away from his former haunts and associates, where he could go, and set up a little business for himself — there are many trades of that kind, which men could learn in prison; and it would be a great deal better than the present system of contract- labor, which bands men together in large parties, teaches them one part of a trade with the aid of valuable machinery, and turns them out with only a partial knowledge of the work, which they might, if they had a thor- ough knowledge of, depend on for an honest living. Those are my views as regards the effect of it on the prisoner. I have thought of it a great deal since this subject has been before us as a trade. It has been before us now about two years, and, in giving thought to it as it affected our important interests, I have come to the conclusion that that is the great question to the State, — that the man should be taught something that he can work at when he gets out of prison, and something that he can leave the large cities, and work at, and be lost in his identity as a criminal or a former ill character, and be lost to society, and be able to strike out a new career for himself. In that view, the interest of the State comes in very largely. As these gentlemen whom you have listened to this morn- ing have said, the interest of the State must be considered. That no- body can deny. I do not pretend to say for a moment that I want to see a convict kept idle, because I believe a condition of idleness in the pris- oner would tarn the men out in a worse state than they went in, and they would prey upon society more than they did before. They must be kept at some employment. It is right that they should. It is right that they should be put at some employment that they can work at when they go out, and it is right that they should be kept at that employment in such numbers as not to materially affect any industry outside : I say, mate- . rially affect it. Of course, no matter how little they do there, it must affect the industry outside in some degree; but the question is to affect the industry to such a ruinous degree as it is affecting ours now, and is liable to do so for some years to come, because, no matter what may be done in this country now, the present contracts in hatting have got to have their run. Those are my views, Mr. Chairman, in a general way. I did not come here prepared, in fact it was not until last night that I knew that I was wanted here, or would be here, and I came here to answer, and not to talk. I have said more now than I meant to, and I would rather answer any question that you gentlemen see fit to put to me than volunteer any statement of my own. Mr. Hunt. I want to ask Mr. Cornell, when he speaks of the idea that convicts should learn a whole trade, do the different trades permit that? Mr. Cornell. I never knew of any man being refused work in any shop because he had learned his trade in State prison. Trades-unions, as you know, are so constituted, that they expect boys to learn the trade. They bar out any man, — not convicts alone, but any man. They are so 274 constituted, that they expect boys to come when they are young, and learn a trade before they become men ; and consequently, if any convict is kept out of a shop -which belongs to any trades-union, it is not because he is a convict, but it is because he did not learn the trade, and come up in the regular -way, like the rest of them. Mr. Hunt. That is not the point. Can he learn the whole trade, or only part of a trade ? The Chairman. I understand what Mr. Hunt asks is, "Would you advise teaching convicts a whole trade in preference to part of a trade? Mr. CoENELt. I would. Mr. Hunt. Then -why not adopt that in the trades-unions ? Why do not the trades-unions allow apprentices to learn the whole trade ? Mr. Cornell. Is there any thing in the trades-union of shoemakers that forbids them to learn to" make a whole shoe ? It is in my business to know how to make a hat from the time the fur is taken from the animal until it is put on yoUr head, and we do not bar them out because they know how to do it. Mr. TiBRNBY. It depends more on the division of the trade, doesn't it? Mr. Cornell. Society has drifted into that condition of things, that trades have got divided up, I admit, outside of the prison ; but I never knew, until Dr. Hunt stated it, that there was any thing forbidding one to learn aU the branches of the trade. The Chairman. You stated a few moments ago, that, under the con- tract system, the result was to flood the market with large quantities of manufactured goods during dull seasons '! Mr. Cornell. Yes. The Chairman. Is that so any more under the contract system than it would be on State account, or public account? Mr. Cornell. I think so; because I think, that, under the contract system, there would be a greater amount of work turned out of these pris- ons than there would be under the State account, and that, too, without giving the State the same remuneration which the contract system would give. The Chairman. You think, then, on State account the convicts would labor less hours, and consequently produce a less amount of goods ? Mr. Cornell. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And so working less and producing less would relieve the outside industries? Mr. Cornell. Yes. The Chairman. But if they should work the same number of hours, and should work under the same discipline, with the same tendency of over-work, and superintendence, and financial success, there would be no difference whether they worked on State account or contract ? Mr. Cornell. No. Not if they were made to produce the same amount of work, there certainly would not be any difference in the effect upon the outside industries, because then the State would put itself in the condition of a contiactor. The Chairman. Then really the benefit is not from the system, but from the result of the different systems. Mr. Cornell. No. I take issue with you there, because the one system would not caU for that excess of production that the other would, because the State is not supposed to be carrying on business to make money and to accumulate a capital, but to sustain the prison free from expense to the State ; whereas the contract system is aiming not only to free the State from the expense of supporting the prison, but aiming also to enrich the contractor at the same time. The Chairman. Are you acquainted with the reformatory at El- mira? Mr. Cornell. I am not. 275 The Chairman. Do you know any thing of it by reputation? Mr. Cornell. Very little. The Chairman. Have you heard any thing in regard to the financial results of that prison ? Mr. Cornell. Nothing that I could state positively. The Chairman. I think perhaps you will agree with me, that the effort there of Air. Brockway is to make the prison, not only self-support- ing, but so profitable as to attract attention to its great success. Have you heard any thing of that kind ? Mr. Cornell. No, sir: I have not. I supposed that the object was to make it attractive in making it a school of reform to the prisoner. The Chairman. That is the ulterior object. Under the present state of public opinion, public feeling, is not the tendency to make all penal institutions profitable ? Mr. Cornell. Yes. The Chairman. Does not the public demand that? Mr. Cornell. No. I don't think the public demand it; I don't think the public has taken interest enough in the question to form any definite opinion on the matter. I think that the .prison officials aim to do it for the purpose of keeping; themselves in power, and making themselves popular, and maintaining their ofiices. The Chairman. If a prison draws largely upon the public treasury, is not there a complaint strongly and persistently urged against that as imposing a large tax upon the citizens? Mr. Cornell. I don't think a general complaint. The Chairman. If it was so, wouldn't it necessitate the effort, ou the part of the public officers, to make their prisons profitable, on whatever system they were conducted? Mr. Cornell. Yes ; it would certainly. I think that the trouble has been, that there has never been a proper medium of rule; that they have run from one extreme of contract to another extreme of total idleness, and that a condition of total idleness in a prison is one that the public find fault with, not only because it is an unnecessary expense to them, but because they believe it is a ruinous condition for the prison and for society; but I believe that any moderate system that made the prison simply self-sustaining without being profitable, would meet the approba- tion of the public at large, without regard to the class of ,i:idustry. The Chairman. You think that the tendeney of State officials would not be to make a profit? Mr. Cornell. No ; not unless they were intimately connected with the prison. The Chairman. Prison officials under State authority, you think the tendency would not be to make the prison profitable ? Mr. Cornell. No; I don't think it would be. The Chairman. And so you favor that, on that account, in prefer- ence to the contract? Mr. Cornell. Yes. I favor it on that account as well as on other accounts. The Chairman. But, in order to get the immediate rfelief which you want, you favor it, because it would reduce the hours of work? Mr. Cornell. Yes, sir. Mr. TwEEDr. In your estimate that the number of convicts employed in making hats is eleven per cent of those employed outside, did you base it upon those employed in the manufacture of fur hats only ? Mr. Cornell. Only fur hats. Mr. Tweedy. You did not include the wool hats ? Mr. Cornell. No, sir; only the fur hats. I had no data to guide me in regard to the wool hats, and I did not consider myself called upon to speak for that. Mr. Morse. Under existing oiroumstaaoes, would not the prison 276 authorities feel quite as willing and desirous to make the prison pay under the public-account system as they do now under the contract system? Mr. Cornell. I think not, sir. As I said before, there would not be that necessity of strenuous -efiort on their part, because they would only have the support of the prisoners to look out for; whereas now they have that, and they have to satisfy the conti-actor as well, so that he can make his profit, in which the State has no part. There is the support of the prisoner, and the superfluity of the contractor's profit as well, to be got under the present system; whereas, under the State system, there would only be the one source looked for. That is the reason why, I think, that the prisoner would have more time, and the public would have less goods thrown upon the market; and I think, that, under that system, a greater diversity of labor could be introduced into the prison, because ujider the contract system at present, as it is carried on, with large numbers of men, all the improved machinery and every thing of that kind brought to bear to produce large quantities of goods, there are these efforts which would not exist under the State system. Men will not take a contract for ten, fifteen, or twenty men simply. They want one hundred, two hun- dred, three hundred, five hundred, or a thousand. There is no limit to what they want. There is a limit to what they don't want, though. They don't want twenty-five men, as a general thing, or even fifty men. They want their hundreds or their thousands, in order that they may carry on the contract, and employ machinery, and make the whole thing turn out large results. With that system you cannot get great diversity of labor, and consequently the oppression comes upon a few. The Chairman. Would there be any prospect of a greater diversity of industries in the prison under the State-account system than under the contract system? Mr. Cornell. It strikes me there would. The Chairman. Can you give a reason for the faith that is in you? Mr. Cornell. 'My reason is simply this, that I think that under the State system, the profit coming all to the State, there would be a greater chance to spread out these industries ; that is, put gangs, smaller num- bers, at different employments, and give them work which they could all do with their hands. It would abolish in a great measure the use of machinery. It would give the men employment at something that they could do with their hands, and which they would learn to do, and be able to do when they got out, without the aid of machinery ; and I think that if there was a just administration of the work in the prisons, and of all the regulations, in a prison like the Clinton, where there is now only one branch of labor carried on, there might be fifteen or twenty, and with as much profit to the State as there is now, — just as much. The Chairman. Would you abolish machinery, then, from the prisons? Mr. Cornell. As far as it could be done. As far as the labor could be done by hand, I would have it done in the prisons. Mr. Tweedy. Would you have the same trades practised in prison by hand that are done by machinery outside, so as to bring the hand-labor in the prison into competition with machine-labor outside? Mr. Cornell. Yes, Mr. Tweedy. Your idea would not be to concentrate the work of the prison upon those industries which are performed by hand solely outside? Mr. Cornell. No. Mr. Tweedy. The competition of a convict at fifty cents a day as against a skilled workman at two dollars and fifty cents or three dollars a day, upon a trade that is altogether a hand-labor, would be more severely felt than when they compete with their hand-labor against machine- labor? Mr. Cornell. Certainly. 277 Mr. Tweedy. Suppose two men, for instance, should be engaged, one outside and one in, in pouncing hats by hand, and the convict at fifty- cents a day should perform an equal amount of labor with the man out- side at two dollars and fifty cents a day. The actual difference of cost would be the difference between fifty cents and two dollars and fifty cents, if you please? Mr. Cornell. Yes, sir. Mr. Tweedy. If they did five dozen hats a day, that would amount to fifty cents a dozen. Suppose the convict should he employed upon a machine for pouncing hats, and the man outside should be employed also upon a machine for pouncing hats, and each should pounce twenty dozen a day. In one case, the twenty dozen hats would coat two cents and a half a dozen, and in the other they would cost ten cents". There the dif- ference would be seven cents and a half on a dozen, wouldn't ity Mr. Cornell. Yes. I think that would be apt to affect the manufac- turer outside certainly. Mr. Allinson. I understood you to sjy there were fifteen or twenty other kinds of industry. What could they do ? Mr. Cornell. I am not prepared to answer that. I think shoes could be made by hand ; I think hats could be made by hand ; clothing could be made by hand. Mr. Tweedy. Are not hats now made by hand in the prisons almost entirely? Mr. Cornell. Oh, no, sir ! There is machinery of aU kinds used. Ml". Tweedy. The great bulk of the work, for instance, the sizing and finishing, is all performed by hand? Mr. Cornell. Some of the sizing, the second sizing, is done in the prison by machinery, I think. If there were only a small number of hatters, we would not care whether they were employed by hand, or whether they were employed by machinery. I speak of machinery, be- cause, when it is brought to bear in the prison, it prevents the prisoner from learning his whole trade. He only learns that part of the trade which applies to the particular machine that he works at. As you say, a man might be kept all the time he is in prison upon a pouncing- machine, and he would know nothing but pouncing when he came out. Mr. Bettle. Isn't it true that labor is now so subdivided, that a man — I am speaking now entirely outside of the prison — does hot learn a whole trade practically? Take the hatter's trade, or take the shoe- trade. Mr. Cornell. Yes ; that is so. Mr. Bettle. It is subdivided into such branches, that a man does one specific thing, and that is all he does? • Mr. Cornell. Yes. Mr. Bbttlk. Therefore I do not see that the objection holds, — if a man inside of the prison learns less than a man outside of the prison, he is not fitted to come out and take a position in society on that account. He is simply upon the same plane with the other. I agree with you, that, the more industries you put in the prison, the better. Mr. Cornell. A man may learn the whole trade outside. Mr. Bettle. But he never does practically: I mean hardly ever. Mr. Cornell. It is generally so. Mr. Bettle. There is that subdivision of labor existing. Mr. Cornell. Yes; it is generally so. Mr. Bettle. You said you believed in labor in prisons sufficiently to make those prisons self-sustaining ? Mr. Cornell. Yes, sir. Mr. Bettle. What do you exactly mean by that? Do you mean simply the support of the prisoners, or that the expenses of the prison shall be met, so as to exonerate outside tax-payers from being taxed to support that institution ? 278 Mr. Cornell. I am willing to go that far, that I think that in the present condition of things, I do not think it is right that the State should be free from all taxation in the support of the prisons ; but I think in the present condition of things, if there was just sufficient work done in the prisons to clear the State of all expense connected with them, that it would create a better state of things in the prison, and give more satisfac- tion outside than exists at present. It would be a large step in the 'right direction. Mr. Bettlb. Have you any idea how many prisons in the United States are self-supporting? I mean that the labor of the convicts inside of them, under any form of administration, public-account, or contract, meets those expenses ? Mr. Cornell. I don't think any outside of the State of New York are. Mr. Bettle. And there is but one in the State of New York, and there is a sort of a mystery as to whether that does or not, and that is Sing Sing, and there, I believe^the reason is, that they send away their incapables, as you may term them, to other prisons, and reserve there for their manufacturing purposes those men that are of either long-term sentences, or are physically more able than some other men to perform work ; so that really there is not a prison, with that exception, in the United States that is self-supporting, and is not a drain upon property- holders outside. Mr. UoRNKLL. I think you can hardly predicate what would be the condition of Clinton prison the coniing season. I don't know whether Clinton prison has sustained itself this last season, or not; but I think in the coming season it undoubtedly will. Mr. Bettle. Now comes the remedy, — whether the contract system or the public-account system will best provide for that state of things; that is, whether the State, the citizens, will be more relieved from the burden of taxation by the administration of the prisons on public account, or by contract. Mr. Cornell. Do you think that the prison would get more support, or the State would get more support from its pri.son, if the men were earning two dollars a day, or if they were only earning fifty cents? It was my impression, that where the State was gaining all the results of the prisoners' labor, if the prisoner labored one-half as much for the State as he did for the contractor, the prison would support itself. You see at present, where the State is only getting twenty-five to fifty cents for the convict, it can hardly be expected that that will more than barely support the convict himself, and the other expenses of the prison will come upon the State; but, if they were getting a dollar for the work of each convict, then it would cover his own support and the other expenses of the prison besides. Q. Let me call your attention to one other particular. Could not a State supervisor, or whatever other title might be given to him, acting for the State, buy material, &c., upon as favorable terms in the open market as a man of large means, or a contractor? A. I think he could. I think he could even do better, because he would buy in very large quantities. Q. Do you think there would be any great advg,ntage if an officer were acting in that way for the State, as compared with the present system ? A. I think it would depend a great deal upon the character of the man. If he were an honest man, and would put his abilities to as good use for the State as for himself, there would be no difficulty in producing the same result. Q. In your experience, is it usual to get that class of men? A. No. They do not generally get that class of men; but they some- times do. Even if they did not always get the right class of men in the 279 right place, I do not think the losses would average as much to the State as the present contract system pi-oduces. Q. You regard the division of labor as an important question? A. Very. Q. Do you not think that it is possible for different industries to be pursued in the State prison by a contract system, as well as by the direct employment of its own officials? A. No, sir. It would not be as profitable for the contractor. Q. But would not a proper public sentiment justify the State in awarding to different contractors various kinds of industries, not so much with the view to make tlie last dollar out of it as to give the men employ- ment that were capable of working, and at the same time relieve outside labor of the competition or concentration upon any one class of labor? A. No doubt public sentiment would be in favor of that. But you would not be very apt to find the contractor on those terms. Q. If that would enable reasonable profits to be made on small lots, instead of larger profits on large lots, would not that be a good subject to recommend ? A. No doubt it would have a good effect. But I do not see where the State would do as well, and I don't think the convict would do as well under any contract system as under State management. Q. Would not a diversity of employments enable different men in prison to have something adapted to their tastes or abilities ? A. That would involve the limiting of the employment to not more than a certain number of convicts at any one branch. Q. As to the State of New Jersey: do you think that a law passed in that State, prohibiting the manufacture of hats in the prison, would bring any practical advahtage, seeing that there never were any hats manufac- tured in the prison? A. If you would allow me to give my opinion (because there is no fact in the case, except the passEige of the law), my opinion is, and I think it is the opinion of eery hatter in New Jersey, that there would have beeq a large contract awarded for hat-labor in that prison before this time, if the law had not been passed; and we have even got the men singled out, who, we think, would have got the contract. Q. Will you mention their names? A. I would not like to mention names; but we are pretty certaiu about it. Q. (By the Chairman.) You say, that, if the law had not been passed, there would have been a contract in that prison ? A. That is what the hatters of New Jersey think- Q. The law was passed, and there has never been any contract? A. No. Q. Has that fact relieved the hatters of New Jersey from any bur- den? A. Presumably it has. Q. Has it prevented the sale of State-prison hats in the State of New Jersey ? A. No : it has not prevented the sale of State-prison hats made in other States of the Union. Q. Has it not opened the door of New Jersey for the sale of hats manufactured in the prisons of New York? A. It has opened the door of New Jersey for a reduction of wages on hats made in New York. Q. Please confine yourself now to a reply to my question. Has not that law opened the door of New Jersey for the sale of hats manufac- tured in the State prison of New York? A. Undoubtedly it has opened the door of the State of New Jersey, as well as of every other State in the country. Q. Then has it benefited the he^tters at all ? Has it given them any 280 more work than if the hats which have been sold in New Jersey, and manufactured in New York, had been made in the prison of New Jersey ? A. Mr. Chairman, I will have to digress a little in regard to that point. New York is the centre of our trade. Almost every hat made in the country goes to New York for a market. Well, I will say fifty per cent at least of all the hats made within an area of a hundred miles of New York go to New York for a market (almost every hat made in New Jersey goes to New York for its market) ; and in tliat market they come into competition with the hats made in Clinton prison, in Concord prison, &c. Q. Then has the passage of that law added any thing to the amount of work done by the hatters of New Jersey? A. We think it has. Q. Has not the demand been supplied by the prisons of New York? A. If there had been three hundred men employed in hatting in Trenton prison, there would have been that much more hats thrown on the market. We are relieved, therefore, in not having the evil thrown upon us where we anticipated. The passage of the law did not relieve us in any way from the manufacture of hats in the other prisons of the country (as a matter of course it could not do that) ; and we have had to contend with those difficulties ; but we shut the door of New Jersey from the entrance of any more of that kind of work. Q. Supposing that three hundred men have been employed in Clinton prison in the manufacture of hats, would that competition have been felt by the prison contractors of New York, or by hatters of New Jersey and other States, outside of the prisons? A. All of them would have felt it undoubtedly. Q. But which would have felt it to a greater degree, — the prison contractors, or the outside free workmen ? A. I think they would all have felt it, no one in any greater degree than the other, because the hats would have come to the market, and en- tered into direct competition with those made in the shops, as well as made in the pi'isons. Q. If s the prison authorities of New Jersey had employed three hun- dred men iu the manufacture of hats, would there have been any more hats manufactured than there are at present? A. Oh, yes ! Thousands of dozens and thousands of dozens. Q. I mean, in the aggregate would there have been anymore hats manufactured? A. I am speaking of Trenton prison. Q. But I am speaking of the whole country. Would there have been .any more hats manufactured if the prison of New Jersey had been em- ployed in that industry? A. Of course there would. Q. You think there would? A. Of course I do. Q. (By Mr. Murphy.) Is it not a matter of fact, that, immediately }jpon the passage of that law in New Jersey, the number of prisoners in New York was increased? A. Yes. Q: Suppose two hundred or three hundred were employed in New Jersey, would there have been that many less in New York? A- No, sir. I think the increase was already intended in New York. Q. (By Mr. Bettle.) Do you think, that, to bring about a good result, there must be a joint action of the various State prisons ? A. I do not see that it can be done in any other way. Q. Those manufactured in New Jersey find their way over to New York? A. Yes. Q. And the sale of the hats made in every State is not confined to that particular State at all? 281 A. No. Q. So you think it would be advantageous that there should be a; unity of action in regard to that matter, by having as many States as can be brought into it? A. Yes; all, if possible. Q. So that, if they would adopt two things, — diversity of employ- ments in their various prisons, for one, and avoid a concentration in any one prison upon any specific branch of industry, — then you think the situation would be relieved from onerous competition? A. Yes. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Will you please state whether, from your knowledge, any free labor lost employment on account of the contracts for making hats in prisons ? A. I could state cases where I know that wages have bepn reduced in certain shops on account of the convict-labor ; and I know that men have left shops, and sought employment elsewhere, because they felt that they could not work so low as was required of them by their employer, he pleading that he could not give more on account of having to compete with hats made in prison. Q. Do you know of any case of a manufacturer employing free labor who gave up free labor, and took a contract for prison-labor? A. Mr. Waring is one case in point. He did it. Q. Where did Mr. Waring manufacture? A. At Yonkers, in New- York State. Q. The point I wished to cover was, how far the adoption of the hat industry in the prisons had interfered with the labor outside, either by the discharge of a given number of free laborers, or by a reduction in the price paid for free labor, — whether the evil effect was in the discharge of workmen, or in the reduction of the wages paid to the workmen. Will you please make that point clear? A. It has been in both, sir : it has been in the reduction of the wages paid to the free laborer, and also in his leaving his shop for want of em- ployment. Q. Will you cite any instances or locations as to that ? A. In the city of Orange, N.J., there has been a great depression of trade within the last year, and owing very largely to the fact that prison- labor has come into direct competition with their work. Q. (By Mr. Mdkphy.) It was n,ot New- Jersey State-prison compe- tition? A. No, it was not that : it was New- York State-prison competition. Thanks to the New-Jersey hatters, it was not New Jersey competition ! Q. (By the Chairman.) Have you hat-manufactories in New Jer- sey? A . Yes, sir. New Jersey is the largest hat centre in the country. Q. Give us the names of some large hat-manufacturers in New Jersey ? A. Mr. George Ferry is one. He is present here. Q. Do you know how many men Mr. Ferry employs ? A. No, sir : I don't know how many men he employs. But he is present, and can tell that himself. Q. Suppose Mr. Ferry employs three hundred men, and should add to his manufactory three hundred more, would not the effect be the same as if three hundred men in the State prison had been put on to the manu- facture of hats? A. No, sir; because they would get more for their work, and the hats would sell at a better price ; and the men who competed with Mr. Ferry's increased number of men would not be obliged to work at a re- duced price. Q. Can you give us any instance where hats manufactured in State prisons have undersold hats manufactured outside? 282 A. Yes. I can give you the case of Mr. Yocom. He can tell you, that, in his case, prison-work has come into direct competition with work manufactured in his place. Q. You think, then, that an increase of a laboring force of a manu- factory would not hurt your trade so badly as the introduction of the labor of the same number of men in prison? A. No, sir. Q. On account of the difference in wages? A. Altogether on that account. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) Do you know of any instances where out- side manufacturers have been compelled to reduce the price at which they sold their products, on account of the price fixed on goods made by prison- labor? A. I have heard of many such instances. Q. Can you give any names? A. Well, I would give the names of the firm of Yates & Wharton of Newark, N. J. Q. Then the simple fact the prison-manufacturers sold goods at the same price as the outside manufacturers would not of itself be an indi- cation of a want of competition? A. I do not quite understand your question. Q. The point is this, that, although the goods maybe sold at the same price by the manufacturer employing free labor and by a manufacturer employing prison-labor, that of itself would not argue an unjust competi- tion between the two systems of labor. A. It depends upon what the price was. If the prison-contractor had put his goods upon the market lower than the ruling rate, and the others had to come down to that lovyer rate, then it would be a strong argument against it. The Chairman. That is the point I wanted to bring out. The Witness. That has been the condition of things. George J. Ferry of Orange, N.J., being called upon by the chairman, made the following statement: — Mr. Chairman, and Gentlemen of the Commission, — I came here unexpectedly to-day, and did not know that the Commission was going to meet. What I have to say will not come in in the same order, per- iaps, that it would come if I had been able to give more thought to the subject. But I want to say to this Commission that I am thankful that "the States are waking up to this subject, and investigating it. As far as our own business is concerned, we are between the upper and the nether millstones, — between the General Government and the governments of the States. The General Government fixes the tariffs upon our raw material at such prices that it shuts us out from all foreign markets nominally: in fact it is with only very rare exceptions that we can export any goods at all. Q. (By the Chairman.) You mean foreign markets for manufac- tured goods? A. Yes. While it is generally conceded that we produce better work, we are nominally shut out from other countries by the tariff. That I vpill call the nether millstone. The other millstone which is helping to grind us is the State system, by which contracts are given out to contrac- tors at a price that enables them to produce their goods so low that we cannot compete with them. Let me say, in passing, that that is no advan- tage to the consumer. I went into the house of a customer a few days ago, who showed me a hat that was manufactured iu the New- York State prison, for which he paid thirteen dollars and a half a dozen. He wanted me to look at it, and I did so. I said to him, " Do you sell that liat at the same price that you sell other goods which you buy at thirteen dollars and a half? " He said, '« No: I put it in the line of sixteen dol- 283 lar and a half goods, and sell it at twenty-four dollars." Therefore the contract system is no benefit to the consumer; but it is an injury to the manufacturer — not only to the manufacturer who furnishes the materials, and gets the result, and sells the goods, but to the mechanic that performs the labor. _ If a man can contract his labor at fifty cents a day, and can compel his laborer in the State prison to do a dSiy's work for which an honest man outside gets two dollars, it enables the State-prison man to do this. He can put such better material into the hat, that it is impossible for men outside who are doing an honest business — doing the business such as it was done before State-prison labor came into competition with honest labor — to produce anjr such result. They can outsell us; and they do outsell us. The result is, first, that all low-priced goods (for up to this time they make nothing but low-priced goods, I mean goods that the manufacturer sells at from nine dollars to thirteen dollars and a half a dozen) it has brought down, until we as manufacturers and sellers of those goods have been forced to either give up the sale of them, or else to try and fight the State-prison goods by selling our similar goods at cost, and in many instances at less than cost. But this thing is not going to remain at that point. They are gradu-. ally creeping up, and making better goods as the prisoners become more and more conversant with the business ; and hence they will cover a larger line of business in time. And when they shall cover up to goods that now sell for twenty-one dollars a dozen (as they will), and wh"n enough prisoners are employed to manufacture that class of goods, our business is gone. I want to say frankly to the Commission, that I believe the contract system could not exist in any other country than a country governed as this country is, viz., by a republican form of government, I do not believe that there is a king or queen on any throne of any coun- try of Europe that would dare — that would dare, L say — to bring con- vict-labor in competition with honest industry. I have looked into that matter, and find they do not do it across the water. I have talked with people over there, and they say their authorities would not dare to do it. There would be riots and outbreaks that could not easily be suppressed, if it were attempted to be done. But we have submitted to it because the people rule in this country, and we believe that the people will see the wisdom of doing away with any thing that conflicts with right, and this is worse than a conflict with right in the abstract: it is a conflict with honest labor as well. The question of taxation comes up naturally in this regard, — the ques- tion of making State prisons self-supporting. I claim that no State and no government has a right by its action to lessen taxation by making prisoners self-sustaining, when at the same time they destroy that which has been taxed by the State. Let me illustrate: Mr. Tweedy, say, or Mr. Yocom, or myself, may have a factory which may have cost us fifty thousand dollars, or three hundred thousand dollars. We have been paying taxes upon that, and we have been paying taxes for selling these goods. Capital invested in business in New York, where we do business, is taxed, and we have to pay that tax. Let five or six more State prisons give out contracts as the three now give out contracts, and have given them out, and our factory is worthless for our business. It would only take about eight State prisons, with four hundred men each, probably, to produce nearly or quite all the goods, or, at any rate, so nearly all the goods, in our line wanted in this country, that our business would be worthless. Just to the extent that you increase the number of State-prison contracts in our business, you not only lessen our business, but you destroy our profits I say the State has no right to do any thing that shall destroy my property, or destroy my business, if I am doing a legitimate and proper business. Now, as far aa' the men are concerned. I live in Orange, N.J. It is 284 one of the greatest centres of hat manufactory in this country. If early aU the felt hats in this country are made in Essex County (S.J.), Fairfield County (Conn.), Philadelphia.or Brooklyn. That covers nearly all the hats in this country. I call this matter up, because the gentleman who preceded me was asked this question, "Have the men suffered on acooimt of the contract system? " I have had men come to my door many a time during the last* year, within the last twelve months, beg- ging for bread, for money to provide them with a night's lodging, simply because they could not get work. From the 15th October to the 1st Jan- uary the times a,re dull in the hat business; but for the last three or four years the ladies have got to wearing felt hats, and that pieced out our business, so that the mechanics had employment during that dull time from the 15th October to December or January. These people are an improvident people, as a rule. They do not husband their resources. The result is, that, as soon as they are out of employment, they must have somebody ,to befriend them. Why have they not had employment? Because your contract system has put it in the power of these contractors to do this ladies' work at a price which no honest man could compete with. No honest man.could furnish that class of goods at the same price: hence these men have been out of employment all these months. But in the other months when they have had employment, they have had to take less pay. With the manufaqturers, the question is to-day, whether we shall give up entirely to the State-prison, work, or reduce the wages of the men; and even then we have sold our goods frequently' at a loss, and usually without any profit at all on those grades of goods in which they come into competition with us. There is another thing which I claim a State has no right to do. A man, in order to become a hatter, must serve four years' apprentice- ship. Every trade hedges itself in by providing that there shall be no m,ore apprentices brought in than the legitimate increase of the trade demands. Hence, as a rule, there can be no more than three apprentices in the finishing department, and three in the making department, of a factory. That fills up the vacancies as the old men go out. Has the State a right to step in and manufacture four hundred and fifty men to supply ,the place of men who have spent four years in acquiring a knowledgie of a business by which they shall earn a living all their lives? And then shall those outside men, who have been working all *heir lives in honest industry, and have saved by frugality a little house for themselves, which they can call their own, in Newark, or in Orange, or in Danbury, — shall these men be interfered with by the State, and driven out of their business, and replaced by the State with men who know nothing about the business, simply because it will lessen the general taxatioa of the State by putting this labor into the hands of men that never learned any thing about it? Has the State a right to manufacture four hundred and fifty hatters, and turn them out broad- cast to work alongside. of men who have spent years at low wages to learn their business, in 'the hope that it will support them for life after they had once acquii«d it? Has the State a right to turn out convicts as hat- ters, when honest hatters are bringing their sons up to the trade? and must these young people be deprived of a living, because the State says that " We will furnish all the hatters, or all tlie shoe-makers, that will ever be required "? That is a point, that, to my mind, has a great deal of force. As a hat-manufacturer, I desire to say, that while other branches of industry this fall have been making increasing profits, and are beginning to grow again, and while men are beginning to work with more cheerful- ness, and have more hope for the future, the contrary result is the fact in our business. To explain it I ought to say that the hat business of the country is a very small business. If compared with the shoe business, it is not more than five to a hundred. It only requires a comparatively few 285 men to supply all the hats that are wanted in this country, and it only requires a few additional hundred men to reduce the wages of the few thousands that are employed in it, until they cannot make a living by it, and must be driven away from their homes They have paid taxes on those homes, and they are honest citizens ; yet, when forty or fifty years of age, they must seek other industries, and Jeam new trades, in order to live. Has a State a right to introduce any system that would bring about such a result ? I think not, and I think the gentlemen of these various Commissions will agree with me. I am here, as I have been in other places, to give my opinion of this matter, and I have rejoiced that the States have taken hold of it, because it is a vital matter. If you go to England, our mother-country, you will find this to be the fact: if a tailor is put in prison, he is set to making clothes for the prisoners and for the lunatics and for the inmates of all the reformatory institutions of the country; if a shoemaker is put in prison, he is set to making shoes for the convicts, for the lunatics, and for the others. No goods are put upon the market to compete with honest industry. If there is a surplus of labor, it will come into competi- tion with unskilled labor; they will build docks-, and make permanent improvements, with these prisoners. As you very well know, those that are convicted for a long term, or for life, are sent from England into banishment. I believe it would be one of the best things we could do with our long-term convicts to have a penal colony for them. I do not know that Alaska is good for much of any thing else, and I think it would be better and cheaper for the State to send these convicts to some such country than to bring them into competition with honest industry at home. There is another question to which I ought to draw your attention, and it is this: if there were a diversity of labor in prisons, and the con- victs were pro-rated with regard to the number of those engaged in any particular calling, or trade, that would be a relief. It would be a gi-eat relief to us, and in some States to almost any industry. I suppose if you should take the State of Massachusetts, and employ a number of convicts pro rata there, with regard to the number of shoemakers in the State, it would not be any great relief to the shoemakers of Massachu- setts; but take the States throughout, it would be a great relief, because if you took the State of New York, for instance, I do not suppose we would have more than twenty employed for hatting in that State, and no contractors would take those twenty: hence we should be relieved, and the business which we have learned and followed for years, and which our men have learned and followed for years, would be worth something again. But if State Legislatures should look upon the matter simply of relieving the State of taxes, and not look at the higher duty, which, in my judgment, they owe to their tax-payers and citizens, of protecting those who are suffering, and being ruined by this business, it seems to me that their course will work ruin upon one very worthy class of in- dustry, and relieve the others but very little. If every hat, or every shoe, or other product of State prisons, was labelled as the product of State prisons, that would be a relief to us; because I claim, that while things may be as well made in State prisons as outside, yet, as a rule, they are not as well made. In our business we know that men who wear hats know very little about their quality; but, if the prison hats were branded as' of State-prison manufacture, they would know that they were not as well made, and so such hats would not come so much into competition with honest industry. In regard to the question of whether the contract should be given out, or whether the States should run their own State prisons, that is a point, that, I suppose, wiU come within the purview of these joint commissions. One of the gentlemen of this Commission asked a question with refer- ence to whether a State could run a State prison as economically and as 286 ■well as a contractor could run it. Well, the State to which he and I both belong is a State that is in very good credit. I have no doubt they can buy material as low as I can buy it as a citizen, and I have no doubt they would be in just as good credit, and probably a little better. The only question would be, whether they would employ men who could manipulate these goods, and oversee the men, as well as a contractor could do it. For my part, I do not see why they could not. The combined wisdom of a State, as represented by i^s Legislature and its governor, ought to be able to secure as good material as a private individual can secure, and it ought to be as honestly administered, although perhaps it is not always. I think that when you look at all the facts, — and I am glad that you gentlemen are here having patience to look at all the facts, and getting down to the real troubles of this case, — you will become satisfied that the contract system is doing a wrong to men that have purchased factory property, and who are employing men in this industry, as well as doing wrong to the mechanic himself, who has spent four good years of his life to learn this business, by putting men at work upon it who have had no calling and no profession, except, perhaps, that of pickpockets and bur- glars, or whatever else they may be found to have, — putting them side by side with men who have an honorable calling. For if it should ever come to be a fact, as it will, that convicts will come out of the prison, and stand in the shop by the side of the honest laborer, the honest man will not bring his son up to that calling. If you see fit to ask me any questions, I am prepared to answer them as well as I can. Q. (By the Chairman.) In your opinion would the evils you com- plain of be obviated under any other system ? A. Under any other system of what? Q. Under any other system of labor than the contract system? A. Yes. Q. What would you suggest in its place? A. I would suggest, that, if we must have State-prison labor come in competition with honest industry, lei the State run it for itself. Q. - Would you favor keeping the prisoners in idleness ? A. I would not. Q. You say, then, they must labor? A. They must labor, yes. Q. Would you keep them at productive, or at unproductive labor ? A. I would keep them at what would be productive labor to the State, without coming in contact with honest industry, — with skilled industry, I would better say. v Q. Would you keep them at productive labor, then? A. To the State, yes. Q. What do you mean by skilled industry? A. I mean when a man has learned a trade by an apprenticeship to it. Q. You would not put them at any business which requires skill? A. No, sir: where men have learned an apprenticeship. Q. There is hardly any ti-ade but requires an apprenticeship. A. There are many callings that do not. Q. What would you put them at? A. I would put a great many of them at breaking stone, and so have better roads. Q. Would you let the question of the reformation of the prisoner enter into your plan at all? A. yes. Q. In what degree? A. To the greatest possible degree Q. Can you reform aman if you should put him out on the highway, with a guard or the chain required to keep him safely? A. Yes: I think you will reform him better that way than you will to put him in a hat-shop in a State prison. 287 Q. Will you explain yourself ? ■A. _ Yes: I think it is a greater punishment to a man to be seen with his prison-garb on and a chain upon him, upon the highway, than to be in a State prison to learn a business at which other men are making a liveli- hood already, and when there is not enough for them all to do. Q.- Can you reform a man by degrading him? A. A man degrades himself when he commits crime. Q: Is it the duty of the State to continue that degradation, or to try to raise him above it? A. It is the duty of the State to try to raise him; but, as a rule, it does not succeed. Q. _ But, if that is the duty of the State, can the State raise him by exposing him to the public gaze? A. There are States that do it, and I don't know but they have as mtfch influence as those that do not. Q. What States do you refer to ? A. I don't know particularly as to State,' but there are cities. Take, for instance, the city of Richmond, and you will find them cleaning the streets there. Q. Did they ever have a prisoner reformed in Kichmond ? A. I don't know the histoiy of the prisons there; and I don't think that the State prison reforms men, anyway. Q. Then your theory is, that a man convicted of crime is always a criminal? A. No. But I think reform is not the work of the State prison, but the work of better thoughts, and those better thoughts are more apt to come to men in solitary confinement than in a hat'-factory or shoe-shop. Q. Then you would shut your men up, as in Philadelphia? A. If the policy was simply to reform men, I would. Q. Would that be the best policy for the manufacturers and laboring- men, that the State should turn its attention entirely to reforming its criminals? A . I think it would. Q. You would make every other interest subservient to reformation? A. I think that is the best work that the State could do. Q. In your opinion what is the greatest reformative power? A. God's spirit. Q Under that, what? A. Man's own thought, quiet, solitude. Q. Is meditation better than labor? A. I think it is, as a reforming influence. Yes, particularly labor under restraint and constraint, as in a State prison. Q. Then you do not let labor as an element have much weight in your reformation ? A. No, sir, I do not. Q. You think men who have been brought up in idleness, who have never been taught trades, are as apt to be honest men as those who have been brought up to earn their bread by the sweat of their brow and the labor of their hands ? A. 1 do not think they are, sir. Q. Do you know what percentage of criminals never learn trades ? A. I should say a very large peicentage. Q. Is it not between seventy and eighty? A. I should think probably so. Q. If that is so, is not, then, the teaching of men a trade, at least by its industry, the greatest reformative power that you can have, except the spirit of God, as you say? A. I do not think so, — not under such circumstances. Q. (By Mr. Mevrick.) You said that no European government would allow the contiftct system, did you? 288 A. I do not know of any. I inquired into the matter a little ; but that is a matter with which, perhaps, you are more conversant than I am. Q. Do you know what the system is in Belgium ? A. I do not, sir. I made some inquiries in regard to England, France, and Germany this spring, when I was over there. Q. Do you not know that the contract system is carried on in France? The Witness. In competition with honest industry? Mr. Meyrick. The contract system in prisons. The Witness. For manufactured goods? Mr. Meyrick. For manufactured goods. The Witness. To be thrown on to the market? Mr. Meyrick. Certainly. A. No, sir, I do not. Q. Do yon not know that the contract system is carried on in Sweden? A. I cannot say about Sweden. Q. Or Denmark, or Switzerland, or Prussia? A. As far as I know, I do not know of any country that has a con- tract system which throws goods into the market in competition with honest industry. Q. (By the Chairman.) If it is admitted that prisoners must labor, and must labor at productive industry, is there any difference as to what system they work under? A. Yes, sir. Q. How does that difference come? A. It comes from the fact that the contractor can produce more with prisoners than the State would produce with them. Q. Because the State is not able to get as thorough and efficient men as the contractor himself would get ? A. I do not think the State would enforce the same amount of work as a contractor with his subordinates would extort from the men. W. D. Yocom of Newark, N.J., and New- York City, being invited by the Chairman to express his views with regard to the matter before the Commission, said, — I think the humanitarian gentlemen who have had the floor this morn- ing, and who don't seem to find room for the application of the spirit of benevolence until a man commits a crime, and gets into State prison, should try to remember that there are people- out of State prison who ought to have the humanitarian principle applied to them as well. I wish first to show this Commission the effect of the contract system, as it is conducted in this State and the State of Massachusetts, in reference to hats. 1 think that in varying degree as the proportion of production is to the amount of goods demanded in our case, so exactly is the amount of proportionate injury that the principle will show is applicable in the case of others. For instance, take our business, beginning on the first day of November, for the spring season. If there was no State-prison coiiti'act, all the men in the hat-trade would be employed upon producing the lower or inferior grades of goods, — such goods as would be piled up in stores for stock. That would keep them employed, and give them a living until such times as the demand should come for the higher and better grades of goods, and such styles as people demanded should be produced. Under the contract system we cannot touch any thing until the people come into the market, and teU us what they want. We know what our competitor's capacity is to produce any thing; we know his cap- ital, and the number of hands he generally employs, as well as the amount of stock he can afford to carry; but we do not know what stock a contractor of a State prison has on hand to throw upon the market: consequently, even if we could, and had a right to, make up something in competition with him, we do not know what he has got. We do not know whether he has got twice as much as he really has, or whether he has got 289 four times as much as we think he has : consequently we are in the dark ; those things we have to throw entirely out of consideration. I will give you a little illustration. Refer back to 1876. — the winter and spring, — from the first of November to the first of May. During that season I made five thousand and thirty-nine dozen of hats, — hats similar 1o the class that they now make in the State 'prison. That was between the first of November and the first of May. That amounted to a payment to the men of something exceeding twenty thousand dollars. Last year, under the State-prison system, 1 did not produce one hat of that descrip- tion. It was enth'ely cut off. Now suppose I made, as I did make, about eight per cent on those goods, making to me about three thousand dollars in the season: the State has cut me off in those five seasons about the amount of at least twenty thousand dollars, and yet they have taxed me fordoing this busines.s here in the city of New York just precisely the same as if they had let me do that business, and as if they had let me conduct my business in a reasonable way, and I had made that rea- sonable amount of money. The lowest priced hat that I made last season was the thirteen dollar and a half a dozen, and it was a popular hat. It was a peculiar hat, — a hat having singular characteristics in many ways. On the first of INIay Mr. Carroll, the contractor of the State prison, bought some of my hats, and put them on sample, and agreed to duplicate them to customers at ten dollars and a half a dozen. 1 went to Cincinnati on purpose to see what they did with these goods, in comparison, wlien they got there, and on inquiry in the stores I found that the same goods which he sold at ten dollars and a half and eleven dollars were taking the place, not only of my thirteen dollar and a half hats, which were the lowest hats I could make, but were taking the place of all the other manufacturers' hats pretty much, — I mean in the same way. So much was this the case, that he found he was not getting as much money as he really could get: so he raised the price to twelve dollars, and it kept out of the market there (until such time as he went on to ladies' hats) almost all the hat-manufac- turers' goods that ran between ten dollars and a half and thirteen dollars and a half; and the result has been a great detriment to their business. I made a calculation that he could sell hats twenty-five per cent less than I could, and make on it, at that price, twice as much as I could at my regular price. When you come to that, with the manufacturers that are now in existence, the bulk of the hats that they sell comprise goods from thirteen dollars and a half to eighteen dollars and a half a dozen. Their former productions of from ten dollars and a half, as it used to be, up to thirteen dollars and a half, are almost entirely cut off. There are a few still made by some parties ; but they are almost entirely cut off. Now, as Mr. Ferry very properly remarked, the effect upon- the other goodS) which the State prisons cannof produce, is just as bad, almost, as if they produced them; because, when the buyer comes into the market, he tests every thing by a State-prison hat, and what he can get for it. ' Every thing else in the hat line is based on that as a basis. If you have a hat based on a State-prison hat, he wants to see something more in it than in the State-prison hat, or he will not buy; and, as the contractor can put thirty-three and a third per cent more into the hats than we can, he will produce something that we cannot produce at all. It is like the case of a fashionable tailor, who can take a fine piece of cloth, and put poor work on it, and it will make a good coat, and sell, and it will take the place of the same piece of cloth with fine work on it; so that he gets into a position where he can control the business. In Februaiy we took a sort of' general inventory of the trade. There was about a thousand dozen of soit-felt hats, such as they make in State prison, and such as I make and have sold in the city of New York. Thirty per cent of the sales of that thousand dozen were prison-hats, coming from Massachusetts ajid New York. I do not include any othej- 290 kind of hats but the kind of hats made there in competition with the same kind of hats made outside, because there are some kinds of hats which they do not make there. At that time the investigation of these gentlemen and myself, and a number of others, showed that thirtjr per cent of the soft-hat makers were out of employment in Connecticut, Brooklyn, and in New Jersey: consequently they would have been em- ployed if they had that thirty per cent to reduce. Now take the effect upon the men and the women that we employ. Since the last eighteen months, there is scarcely a man that wehave had working for us ofi and on for a number of years, who has had sickness or death in his family, who has not applied to us for assistance to help him through that period. We scarcely have a trimmer that has been out of employment during the season, to whom, when she comes back to us, we do not have to advance money in order to enable her to get sufficient clothing to come into the factory. See how the contract system works with the men. You first take a trade, and you blight it by making it a prison business. Those that are in it then are either unemployed, or else employed at insufficient wages, and there is an excess created in numbers among the men and women. Then you inject into that trade, blighted in that way, overcrowded already, a very large number of improperly trained workingmen. There is no employment for them without giving it to them at the expense of an honest man who has suffered from trouble, i ou must either take one or the other. You have got them both to choose from, and if you choose the prisoner, and give him the employment, you have got to throw the other out, there being a surplus anyway. You have got to throw out the honest man, and give the benefit of his labor to a convict. Then comes the question of apprenticeships and the learning of trades. We have people applying to us almost daily with regard to hav- ing their sons learn the hatting business, and the first question they ask now is, " Is it a prison trade? " We say, " Yes." — " Then," they say, " we don't want it." If you take apprentices, instead of the worthy boys of honest families, you nave got to take the scrapings, almost, of the streets, unless the others comes to you from absolute necessity. Another point comes up here, on which great stress has been laid, and that is with regard to teaching the convict a trade, and enabling him to earn a living. It has been insinuated that the workingmen are not dis- posed to permit the con\dcts to work alongside of them. Take, for instance, the large aggregation of men in a factory, with a number of boys surrounding them, and put a convict in there among them, sup- posing that the men would work with him. Do you suppose that any manufacturer who is not a fit candidate for a lunatic-asylum, a man with a large amount of property, such as must be scattered around a factory ; that man, knowing that this new workman is a convict who has served his time in State prison for a felony of some kind, — do you sup- pose that he would leave this property where this man, or where a com- bination of these men, if there were a number of them, could take it and appropriate it? The difficulty is not so much with the men, although they do not like to work with the convicts; but the manufacturer cannot trust them in association with his men ; he cannot trust them on account of the fact that they are unquestionably dishonest. You might just as well expect a man who had been imprisoned for five years for embezzle- ment from a bank, to come back and be taken again into the employ of the bank in the same position that he was. No bank president who was fit for his place would attempt any thing of the kind. But they do not teach people trades in State prisons, and it is not designed that they should do so. The contractors certainly don't intend any thing of the kind. You might as well disabuse your mind of one thing, — that all this preaching that has been done by these pious people whom you have had before you is any thing but humbug: it is humbug, 291 and nothing else. The contract system, as it is thrown out to people, for reformation, and every thing of that kind, is the huge fraud of the age. It is designed to make money for States, and to do away with the taxing of people who ought to pay their legitimate share of taxation for all State purposes, and it is designed to make money for contractorsj and to ' advance these officials in public estimation in making the annual reports which they do. Teaching them trades has nothing to do with it. They don't teach them trades, and they don't intend to. Take the hat busi- ness: there are sixteen different processes in it. They teach a man, therefore, in the State prison, just one-sixteenth part of the hat business. That is all he gets there. That one-sixteenth part does not enable him to do any thing more than one function when he leaves the State prison. But the process of adopting the contract system in this form, of putting every man in a position of compelling him from day to day td do a some- thing over and over again, enables the contractor, as against the genei-al custom of labor outside, to produce very largely in excess of what the others would do, and who, by having four hundred and fifty ftlen under contract in Clinton prison, on hats, will make more hats in a year, under the tasks that are imposed on these prisoners, than six hundred and fifty men outside of State prison would or could do. When I was in Albany, before the Committee on Penitentiaries, the chairman stated that Mr. PiUsbury, who had been before the Committee, had stated there, that his object and plan was to have the largest factories (in these specific branches which they have in the State prison now) that there were in the United States; that any other system than that would not be profitable to the State, — that is, as to making a profit, or making a revenue. He stated, that, short of two or three hundred men, it would not be profitable, in the sense that these men wanted it to be. For exam- ple, he stated this, — and I give you this on the authority of the gentle- man of the Committee who stated that it had taken place, — that he expected that every convict that was there once would come back, and that, at the end of three years or five years, he expected to have the largest body of experts that was in the United States in any one business, and that then, when he got them to that point, he could get as much for them as honest labor could get for performing the same functions outside, because they would be better skilled, and do it better. At that meeting it was shown by a gentleman in the stoVe business. Gen. Rathbone, that there was, I think he said, sixteen hundred men in all the prisons mak- ing stoves; and he stated a very singular fact, that no manufacturer of stoves in the State of New York could make a dollar, or get cost for a single general article of stoves or hollow-ware that was not subject to a patent, that he did not have conti-ol of some other way; and that at that time there were two thousand stove-moulders and hollow-ware-moulders out of employment, according to the statistics that they had then obtained. This question of the reduction of taxation by means of the labor in State prison is one of those things that the application to of a little sound common sense will lead this Commission to consider very much in this light. The statement is, that when State prisons taake a profit, and show a surplus, that surplus is a reduction of the taxation to that extent. Now, my investigation in this matter shows that that is a fallacy, that it is untrue, that local taxation is increased to a very much larger degree for the support of those very people who are thrown out of employment, than the amount of the State tax was reduced by the surplus : in other words. King's County, with a large number of hatters, has a Board of Charities which is almost a by-word every winter for the expense which it entails, and I understand that this comes very largely from the fact that they have a thousand families there who are supported by the hat business. Inquiry in Troy and Albany, through Gen. Rathbone, at the time before mentioned, showed that pretty much the same result existed 292 there. If you will take these two or three points, and add them together, and take the surplus which the State shows from any prison, you will find that the people at the other end are compelled to pay twice as much for the support of those who are out of employment as the State will receive in sui-plus from the other side of the question. Then look at the injustifce which that thing creates in another way. The very cities that are most injured have to support their own poor, and pay, not only this taxation, but the injury to their business and taxable property in other ways. The remark as to these local charities applies to the cities of Brooklyn, Troy, and Albany. By this process you compel the people who suffer the most to support the suffering which is the result of the very contract sys- tem itself. The case may be argued in as many ways as you please. Every State has certain peculiar and fundamental expenses, such as prisons, the administration of justice, necessary expenses of legislation, &c., — every thing that goes to make up a State. Every man ought to pay his share of that. Admitting, of course, that prisoners may work, — that is all well enough, — every man ought still to pay his share of the general expenses. But is there any evidence that can possibly be brought before this Commission to show that these five trades in the prisons in the State of New York ought not only to support the prisoners, but to pay taxes for the other trades besides, and these other people outside of these five trades do not pay any taxes for the prison ? There is no argument why a prison should be sefi-sustaining, that will not apply with equal force and as much validity to other departments of the government; and it may be asked why should not legislation be made self-sustaining, and why courts of justice should not be made self-sustaining, or any other department of the State government. It seems to me that the first duty of the State is to" the people that are yet out ai prison, rather than to the people that are already in, — first ix) those who are trying to support their families by honest labor, rather than to those who have committed crime, and are under the ban of the laws. Q. (By the Chairman.) Would the difficulties of which you com- plain be any less under any other system than the contract system? A. I do not know that I understand your question exactly. Q. Suppose the States conducted the prisons, and carried on the same industries which are already in the prisons, would this conflict or com- petition be any less than it is under the contract system to-day? A. The same amount of goods produced in any other way would possibly have the same result, but the same result only indirectly, not directly. For instance, if the State of New York should conduct its own State prisons, and sell its own goods for the State, whatever money there was in it the State would make. In the second place, tlie product would not be compacted into such a shape, and thrust into the market in such a manner, as to be a matter of competition, as is the case with the con- tractor's work. Q. Suppose Mr. Carroll should be appointed warden of the prison at Clinton, and should carry on the hat manufacturing business just as he does now as contractor, using all the available force of the prison for that purpose, and should put his hats into the same market that he does now, would the competition between you and him be any less than it is to-day ? A. The mere changing of Mr. Carroll from a contractor into a Warden would not affect the matter in the slightest degree. Q. Then, if the State carries on the same industry with the same vigor, the same result follows ? ' A. Yes: if it is in the same manner. Q. Then it is not the system you complain of, but the result? A. I do not believe, in the first place, that there is a man in the State 293 of New York, or in any other State, that would consent to have the State work its prisoners as it consents' to have tiiem worked under the contract system. , Q. Suppose Mr. Pillsbury should displace all of the contractors, and should still carry on the same industries, employing the contractors as overseers, would there be any change, any difference perceptible, in the competition which you feel, or which other industries feel? A. As I understand the subject of State account, the goods are not put in the market in the same identical form as they are from the con- tractor. The Chairman. They are, in just the same form. There is no dif- ference as to that. If you labor-under that impression, it is a mistake. Mr. 'yocuM. What I say is this, that if they make any thing in a State prison, say. for instance, brushes at Elmira, there is no depot in the city of New York which is. set apart for the disposition of those brushes directly in the centre of trade. The parties go to Elmira and buy what they want, don't they? Q. Is it not a fact that Mr. Brockway comes to New York, and takes his orders of the same parties who take brushes from you, if you make brushes, and goes back and fills his orders ? A. I don't know any thing about Mr. Brockway. But if Mr. Carroll was to come to New York and fill orders to a certain extent, it would not be so serious an injury to the business as it is now, when he piles up his stock to bring the business down. Q,. Suppose he keeps his men the year round, it does not make much difEerence whether he keeps his stock, or keeps his men at work, so long as in the end they get on to the market? A. Yes. For instance, in May he had two thousand cases of hats already done. If he had not had a hat on the market, and if he had taken orders for hats, we could have some chance to do some business; but the two thousand cases he was able to make up between the suspen- sion of sales and the time of making them again destroyed the proba- bility of putting any thing in competition with him. Q. If the State had any man pledged to keep the prisoners constantly employed, would not they pile up the goods just the same? A. ' 1 presume so. Q. Then do we not come back to the same result, — to the result of keeping men constantly employed, — which would happen under any system ? A. Well, sir, I believe, in the first place, if the State were to conduct their own business, the result would not be as bad as it is now. Q. But you have no facts to back up that statement? A. No facts can be given to back it up. Q. What would you suggest to relieve you of this. difficulty? A. I have no theories on this subject, and no method beyond this. If I were running a State prison as a place for punishment of crime, and such reformation as could be made useful to the criminal, I believe that every thing that the prisoners wear they should make; I believe the repairs to every prison should be made by the prisoners, and that all new prisons should be built by prisoners; I believe that every thing they ate should be raised by the prisoners: and then, if the difference did not pay, I believe that all the balance of the State should pay their share of the taxes to support it. Q. Allowing that, granting that we should do that, would not the result be the displacement of just so many men from those very indus- tries ? If you build your prisons, you displace building contractors and their men, who would otherwise have done that work. If you cultivate a farm, would you displace the farmer and his men? If you dig a canal, and build a dock, you displace the men engaged in these industries. Therefore would not the effect be just the same to any other class of people as you complain that it is to your trade at present? 294 A. No, sir, it would not; because, in the first place, it places the State just in the same condition in doing its work as it does a private individual, if he has a sufficient family of his own to do it; it does not harm or interfere with anybody. AVhat a man never had, in a certain sense, the fact that it is withheld from him can't injure him. The con- tractor that never had a contract to build the State prison could not be injured in the slightest degree by his not getting it. Q. You avoid the difficulty without removing it. Have you any sys- tem which you would suggest in place of this, except the one you have suggested, — of making the prisoners work for the State ? 4. No, sir. If the people of the State of New York want their pris- oners worked this way or the other way, either by the prison-contract system, or by the State-account system ; if they are determined upon either course, and it is a mere matter of the economy or profit of the thing, — I don't see that changing the contractor into a superintendent, the .changing of Mr. Carroll's name over the store that holds these hats to the name of the " State of New York," or that any of those things, would in the slightest degree benefit that part of the consideration at all. Q. Suppose you could get a prison system which increased the num- ber of industries in which the prisoners should be engaged, or if you could limit the number of prisoners engaged in a single industry, would not that be the nearest attainable result to what you are asking for? A. It would. I understand, that, under the French system, the four central prisons have fifty-three different trades conducted in them. They are, as 1 understand it, principally trades that are very largely bearing on the support of the prisoners themselves; that is, they manufacture their own clothing, their own shoes and hats, and all the necessary things that belong to prisons; and they are farmed out to a contractor at the same price as outside labor, and he supplies those prisons with all those things, and the State allows him fifteen per cent on his supplies. While these (our central pri.sons are not entirely self-supporting, yet there is very little or no competition by them with ordinary industry, because there are no products placed on the market that can be sold at any appreciable price less than the manufacture outside, and the prisoners can be em- ployed constantly. The contractor, for the oversight, or for the raw material, receives a moderate profit, and the prisoners and prisons receive .all the things necessary for their support. Q. Has the New- Jersey law worked any special advantage to youV A. Well, you might say that doing away with a thing that never ex- isted is no advantage. But the fact was, that the trade generally — the workingmen and the manufacturers — knew almost to a certainty that a contract was about to be entered into in the State prison at Trenton for the manufacture of hats, and they took this method to prevent it, if they could. It having been preyented, of course no benefit has been derived; but then no injury has been done. Q. Have you derived any special benefit from the fact that the pris- oners there have not been worked upon contract making hats ? Has your business been increased any from that fact? 4. That we cannot state any thing about. Q,. Do you imagine that your business would have been decreased if that nupiber of men, say two hundred, had been employed there? A. Yes: just to the amount of the production of two hundred men. Q. You think, then, that the product of their labor would have been sold to the men who purchased of you? A . Yes, I know it. Every man that I sell to buys prison hats, — every one. That is his first consideration in coming to this market: it is to find out what- prison hats are, before he will buy a hat of anybody else. Q. You would not believe in keeping the prisoners idle? A. Personally, I should'not be at all particular about it. Q. Would you be willing, as a citizen of New Jersey, to pay your proportion of taxes in keeping them idle? ■ 295 A. Yes. Idon't think it would be right; but I should be willing. Q. (By Mr. Murphy.) You do not think it would be right to keep them in idleness? A. I don't think it would be right to keep them in idleness. Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) From a humanitarian point of view, you mean? A. Yes, from a humanitarian point of view. Q. (By the Chairman.) Leaving out of consideration, for the pres- ent, the humanitarian point of view, what, in your opinion, would be the effect upon business and morals of the State of New Jersey, if eight hun- dred men should be detained in a prison in that State for three years without labor, and then let loose upon society? A. I don't think it would make any difference to any of them. Q. Do you think they are so bad that it would not affect them? A. I don't think it would affect them. Q (By Ml". Litchman.) You think, after all, that the principal- difficulty is in the concentration of the labor of convicts upon one, or two, or three industries ? A. Yes, sir: that is it. Q. Do you believe that a contractor would be apt to take a contract for a very small number of men ? A. Mr. Pillsbury told me that they would not; that it wo.uld riii« the whole State-prison system. Q. Then the tendency is, in the contract system, to concentrate the industry on a few trades ? A. Yes. And, furthermore, I want to illustrate what occurred at Albany. There is a body of men in the United States to-day who are seeking by every possible means to obtain all the prispnrcontracts that they can, with the largest number of convicts, and in a few branches of business, for the very purpose of controlling all the chea,per products iu the country. That is the design, and they avow it. Q. Will you be kind enough to state the names of those parties? ■ A. I would not like to state the names. Q. Can you not state them to the best of your knowledge and belief? A. I would not like to. These things came to me in such form that I would not care to give names. Q. (By Mr. Murphy.) How is it, then, that there are so many pris- oners in prisons out of employment, that cannot be hired at any price? A. They are afraid, I think, of the investment of the capital and machinery necessary to do what they want, until they can see that a sys- tem, which Mr. Pillsbury says is not altogether a success yet, ?hall b© permitted to go through the country. Q. The point I want to develop is, that the tendency of the contract system is to let the convicts in large nuinbers to OAe contractor. A. That is the tendency. Q. JVow, would not the tendency under State management be directly the opposite way ? A. It would be entirely owing to whether they diversified their occu- pations. Q. The State would have the control of diversity of employments, and therefore could say how many men could be employed in each industry? A. Well, if the business should be done just as it is now, it would make no difference, except the State would receive a larger sum in profits than it now receives; and if the State derived the revenue, and can get what they are afraid they cannot get, honest people enough to adiiiinister it, they would make a good deal more money; that is, they would produce a larger revenue, and the injury would not be any g^eat^r than it is now. But if they diversified the occupations into a larger number, and sold their goods in smaller quantities, they might make, proba,bly, as much money as they do, and still keep the prisoners employed, and not injure everybody so much. 296 Q. In what way would you limit the number to be employed in any one industry? A. The percentage system has some advantages; and yet, when you adopt that, it makes the State compete against its most prominent indus- try, by putting the largest number of convicts upon it. Then, if you take the percentage system, and apply it on the other side to an industiy very slightly planted in the State, very likely it would destroy it before it begins: so that just how to apply the percentage system has not yet^, I think, got through the mind of anybody who has examined into it. _ For instance, there are eight hundred and some odd hatters in the city of Brooklyn, and a great many in the State of New York. There are four hundred and fifty under contract in the State prison. Now, that four hundred and fifty injure just as many people in New Jersey and Connecticut as they do in New York. If you go to Massachusetts, where there is not a fur hatter, it does not injure a fur hatter in that State, be- cause there are not any there, for one reason, and, for another, because he does not sell his hats there, but in New York. Q. Does it not involve, then, inter-State management or control? A. If such a thing were possible, that would be a very great benefit. , Q. You made the assertion that there was an efiort being made to control certain kinds of industry by contracts and prison-labor. Will you be kind enough to teU what industries you mean, or do you care to go so far as that? A. Well, among others, the manufacture of clothing takes prece- dence. I should say that was the largest interest that was considered by these men. Q. (By the Chaikman.)' If I understand you, then, you say, that, if financial result to the State is the object, it does not make any difference under what system that result is obtained, the effect would be the same so long as the same number of goods were produced in the same way? A. And disposed of in the same way. Q. And it does not make any difference' under what system? A. If they are disposed of in the same way as they are now, I do not see that it would make any difference under what system the thing works. Q. The only relief, ihen, that you can get, if I understand you, is by diversifying the industries, and by limiting the number of men engaged in each. A. Yes; and they must bear some relation to the industries outside. For instance, now over ten per cent of the hats made in the United States are made in those two State prisons. Q. (By Mr. Mukphy.) Suppose that we should have legislation to diversify the employments, we are shut out by the law of New Jersey in your favor, and we could not diversify the employments in the matter of hats. AVill you let us introduce that as one of the industries? A. Well, if the State thinks it is more profitable to destroy its citi- zens for the purpose of deriving a slight revenue from it, they will find that they will destroy the largest interest in the State of New Jersey. Q. That is hardly an answer to my question. If we, in the interest of manufacturers, diversify the employments in our prisons, as they sug- gest we should do as a means of rehef , why should we be cut off from any one industry? A. If you will take them all in, and include New York and Massa- chusetts, and all the industries of the States, I should be perfectly willing, provided all the States do the same thing. The injury now is so great by the contract system by the two States that are already engaged in it, that another State would be almost utter min. Q. Then, imless other States should fall into the same system, it would be almost useless for one State to adopt this remedial plan of diversifying the employments ? A. Yes; I think that is so. 297 Julius M. Ellendorf of South Nor walk, Conn., on the invitation of the Chairman, gave his views to the Commission, as follows: — Mr. President, and Gentlemen of the Commission, — The gentle- men that are here with me represent, not a trades-union, but a delibera- tive body which assembled in New York a few days ago, sent there by all the different districts of felt and wool hatting in tliis country, together with delegations from a convention of a number of trades, which took place in New Brunswick a few days before that. They delegated us to appear before your body, and defend as best we could our interests which are at stake in this question; and in order to save time, and bring the matter before you in the shortest manner, it was thought best to present a docu- ment, which, with your kind permission, I will read. It will not take nearly so long to do that as to enter into a discussion of the questions involved. [Mr. Ellendorf read his paper to the end.] John Phillips of Brooklyn, N.Y., on the invitation of the Chairman, addressed the Commission as follows: — I am a workingman, gentleman, and not in the habit of making speeches. My business is at the bejich; but, hearing some remarks .here about whether the State prison should be run by contracts or on account of the State, I have thought it would be well for me to say a few words, giving the result of my own observation. If the State were to run the prisons themselves, it would be a great benefit to prisoners, in contrast with the contract system which is now in operation. What I am going to state to this Commission are facts that I have got from good author- ity. Within ten minutes' walk of this building are two prisoners who came out of the hat-shop of the New- York State prison, and a foreman who left there on account of sickness. I am in communication with them, and have heard their stories. With regai'd to the convicts, of course you cannot always rely implicitly on what they tell you, and their stories are probably a little exaggerated. The foreman's story differs a little from the stories of the men. But I was myself, one day last win- ter, in the Albany Penitentiary, and I went all thiough it by Mr. Pills- bury's permission I saw the men at work in the shoe-shop, for instance, and they were working just like so many machines. I wondered how human nature could stand it. I knew they were not doing it for effect, in order to produce an impression upon visitors, because they had their faces all turned away from the visitors In that institution the prisoners are not allowed to move their heads. They are taught to keep perfectly still, no matter what happens. If the keeper were to discharge a re- volver at their ears, they daie not flinch. If they were to move, they would be punished for it. I have the authority of one of the most promi- nent public men of Brooklyn who was present when that experiment was tried, and, as I understand it, that is one of the regulations in oider to keep strict discipline in the prison. I asked the keeper whether the men worked as busily as this all the time, and he said, " Yes." I asked him, "Doyougivethematask?" — " Well," he says, "no." Said I, "What do you do when your most expert people get through with the job they have on hand? Do you let them sit, and remain in idleness? Suppose a man gets through at four o'clock with what he has to do? " — " Well," he says, "we don't give them any regular task. " — "But," said I, "if these people must remain here until six o'clock, and a man gets through at four o'clock, what do you do with him? " — " Well, we fix it so that he generally works until nearly the last minute." I says, " How do you do it?" He says, "If he gets done at five o'clock, next day we give him a couple pairs of shoes exti-a to keep him busy until six." And that is the way they do, Mr. Chairman. The harder a man works, the harder he has got to work right along. If he finishes those two extra pairs of shoes before the time is up, then they give him next day a larger number 298 of shoes to make, and so on every day. The harder he works, and the sooner he gets through, the more they pile the work on to him. They take five or six convicts in a gang who axe pretty smart men, and they induce these to work very hai'd, and then they make these the standard of work for the rest, no matter how different they may be in their con- stitutions or in their fitness for work. These are facts, because we read lately in the newspapers that two wardens were removed from Sing Sing prison for approaching the convicts, and making them work in the inter- ests of the contractor. Mr. Carroll, either by his instigations, or through his wardens, approached the convicts, and bribed them to work extra hard in order to get more work out of the gang. Two or three men are taken aside, and bribed by some little favors, and they jump in and strain every nerve; and they are generally the strongest men. These men get, perhaps, three more hats made in a day than they made the day betore. Immediately every man in that gang lias got to do as much as these men; and if he does not he will be punished for it. These men are selling their own flesh and blood in that way. There is one man that I know that was sent up as a prisoner from this city (I knew him well) ; and when he got there he got into the hat-shop, and as soon as he got into the shop he got money. He is out now. He was a good workman. I do not say that Mr. Carroll did it ; but somebody must have done it, under him. This man jumps in and does more work than any of the convicts of that gang had come up to so far ; but they had all to ootfie to it in a few days, because they were driven into it. They had to produce as much work as this man. That was under the contract system. In Clinton-county prison they give the prisoners a task, though I believe they give them no tasks at Albany. I said to the Clinton-county man, " If you have an expert workman, and he gets done at two o'clock in the afternoon with his task, what do you do with him? Do you give him another task? Will you allow him to stay there in the shop and do nothing more? " He said, "No: we can't do that." Said I, " If there are a lot of hats there to be sized, and the contractor wants these men to be kept busy, you won't let this man remain idle? '*^- '> No," said he, " we ask him as a favor to go on and do a little more." It is very likely that the keepers ask the convicts " as a favor " to go on and " do a little more." You can place what reliance you please on that statement. They give them a certain task, and as fast as they show that they can do that, and more too, they keep on increasing the task from day to day. The system of tasks was in vogue when I was a boy, even among reputable manufacturers ; but it has been long since done away with. I was a vic- tim of the task system myself, and have reason to know how hard it is. You got so much a day wages, and you got so much for overwork. You got two dollars and a half a week, perhaps, for your regular task, and they said, " All over that we will give to you." So you go on and pitch in, and work hard, and that week you make a few dollars over and abuve your regular task. Next week he comes and tells you if you will work hard and strain every nerve, he will give you five dollars; and so they kept on working you harder and harder. That used to be the system that was in vogue years ago with apprentices. That is just the system in vogue with the prisoners under the contract system to-day; and it will be always so while the contractor is there pushing his men along. The pun- ishment, you must remember, in these places, is the dark cell and " pad- dling." I saw one man there who was disabled in the hand. He worked in the hat-shop. I saw that there was something wrong with him, and I asked him what it was. He said he was obliged to do as much work as a man who was not disabled at all, and that he was not fit to do it. He said, " I might have been able to do it if I could get even one good square m^al in a week." But he said, that, with the diet they gave them, it could not be done. Clinton prison is a hospital, and, if people are sickly in Sing Sing or in Auburn prison, they send them to. Clinton prison. 299 This hran insisted that his hand was disabled; but the doctor said, " There is nothing the matter with him; " and whatever the doctor says in these places is law. If a man says he is sick, and the doctor says he is well, he is obliged to go on and work. He is turned over to the con- tractor, and the contractor's man is not supposed to know whether he is sick or well, but assume that everybody is well and strong, and he must get as much work out of one man as out of another: so, be they sick or well, they must do as much as the other men in the gang. Then, if a man does not do that, he is probably taken out and "paddled," — gets as many blows as these people think is good for him When they don't paddle him, they put him in the dark cell for, say, three, and sometimes for six days, where he gets no light and very little air; and for food they give him a small piece of bread and a gill of water every twenty-four hours. The foreman conceded that to me himself. I asked him if it was true, and he said, "Yes." Then they take up a man after ten days of such treatment, and he must go in and do his task as well and as soon as the men who have been getting full diet all the time. How can gentlemen say that the contract system should be held up, when a man is abused like that? One man told me that he has seen men beaten almost to death. Of course, couTicts are ugly customers, and you must be rough with them; you cannot handle them like you would boarding-school misses : but there is reason in every thing, and they beat these poor fellows over the back with sticks. I am sorry Mr. Pillsbury is not here just now to hear me. On one occasion, Mr. Pillsbury, as I was told by one of the prisoners, brought in "Mr. David Robinson, the son of Gov. Robinson (and his private secretary), and he brought in Comptroller Olcott also, to see the exhibition of paddling upon these convicts. Think of these refined gentlemen consenting to see a thing like that! Of course, however, it is possible that that may not be true, and I should be sorry for Mr. Pillsbury's reputation if it was true. But the man that told me said it was a fact. Kow, with regard to moral reformation. They work these men every working-day in the year. There are no idle times. The hatter in Brooklyn has got "splendid" times. It is very rarely that he has any thing to do. I have not earned ten dollars in four weeks; while the convicts in the State prisons are working at my business every day in the year. I said to the foieman, " Do you work these men every day all through the year? " — " Every day," he said, " except Sundays and holidays, the year roimd." I said, "Why is it, if the contract calls for four hundred and fifty men, that you don't put four hundred and fifty men to work?" — "Well," he said, "they are mostly sick men that are sent up from the other prisons There is twice the demand for these prison-hats; but we can't get con- victs enough." I asked him how it was about the moral reformation and religious instruction they got. I know some people claim that this discipline makes these convicts better men, and that, when they come out, the moral and i-eligous instruction they get in there is very conducive to their welfare when they come out. In the model prison of this State the Protestant portion of the convicts get religious instruction once a week, and the Roman-Catholic portion once in four weeks. So you can see what a beautiful amount of religious instruction these people get, and how their morals must be improved by what they get. As to education of the convicts, there is no effort made at it at all: it is not even thought of. A contractor would never think of such a thing as that. They are taken into his shops at seven o'clock in the morning, and are brought out for dinner at twelve. They are not allowed to wait until one o'clock befoie beginning to work; but at a quarter of one they are put in position for working, and the instant the bell is rung every man is gohig just like a machine. If the State ran its business itself, there would be nothing like that. Men would not be driven so to death, and made to do more work, almost, than human nature 8G0 can stand. The State would merely wish to keep the convict busy — rightly busy — the year round. I believe in keeping convicts busy. I say they should be kept employed. 1 am not a radical on that point; but I don't believe in stiaining every nerve to drive men to death, especially, when at the same time it drives us to beggary. I think there should be some other plan adopted. If the State ran its prisons itself, there would be night-schools for these convicts, and not this eternal driv- ing and dragging and grinding men like so much machinery. If the contractors were not there, these men would not be worked like this. They would do as much work as we do in our shops, and that is enough for anybody. I can't do as much work as these convicts are made to do; and there is no man that I know of, with very few exceptions, who could possibly do as much work as these people are made to do. One man told me, that, in the shop where he was, he was obliged to do five dozen of ladies' felt hats in a day, — that is, in the finishing department. Q. And what is the ordinary day's work? A. Three dozen would be what we call a good day's work, and we are not employed the year round. We don't have six months' steady work in the year. Last fall, in the manufacture of ladies' felt hats at Clinton pri.son, they turned out twenty-five thousand dozen, and this fall they will beat that. 1 have the figures from gentlemen to whom these people pay a royalty for certain machines which they are obliged to use. Those twenty-live thousand dozen were turned out inside of four months. That work we used to get at one time: now we don't get any of it. Taking the raw material, and working upon it until the thing comes out in the bands of the milliner, the labor on that number of hats is worth three dollars a dozen, and that makes seventy-five thousand dollars of wages taken from the poor industrious hatter who works outside. This prison-contractor is running down hundreds of dozens of these felt hats every day from Clinton prison, and driving the work eutii-ely out of our hands. Those hats used to come along in the fall of the year, and were very much needed to keep us at work in the opening of the hard winter; but we are now deprived of them. This fall they will beat that twenty-five thousand dozen, and will piobably produce forty thousand dozen of ladies' hats. Then, as quick as the ladies' trade dies out, in a few weeks they commence on men's hats, and don't do any ladies' hats at all, but keep on men's hats right through until the 1st of August-, run- ning them out regularly every day in the year by hundreds of dozens. There is no stop, or limit, or let-up to them. Clinton-county Prison is so far away, — up in the Adirondack Moun- tains almost, — that we cannot very well go up there and get information; and we have only got to get it from those that we think ought to know, who are within our reach. As I said before, the statements of these con- victs are probably a little exaggerated. Of course you can't place entire confidence in that class of men. But the foreman that I alluded to is a respectable man, and I would feel confidence in his statements. I have given you mainly the words of that man. That is all I wish to say to the Conmiission in reference to my views as a practical workman in this matter. I certainly think a change should be made. Q. (By the Chaikman.) Why do you think, that, if the State con- ducted the business itself, the amount of work done would be less than under the contract system? A. Because the contractor would not be there to urge these people so hard. Q. Suppose the State were the contractor, why do yon think they would work them less? A. Because the State authorities would not be so earnest in making money as the contractors. That is my experience and observation, al- though I have never worked on public works. Q Wherever the State controls an industry, there the men, whether of high or of low degree, shift and shirk, so that the business drags? 301 A. Outside that is the experience, I believe; but there would be no shirking or shifting in a prison. Q. If there were no shifting or shirking, would not the result to your business be, the same as it is nowV . A. There would be the difference that no contractor, with his system of bribery, would be there to urge men to work almost to death- Q. What would you substitute for the system? A. I am sorry you asked that question, sir. I have never thought of it, and I have never asked a workingman such a question. I think it is a horrible question to ask of a workingman who is compelled to work at a bench all his life. You cannot expect us to be up in political economy. I have often heard that question asked of workingmen ; but 1 never could see how people could expect a man that has been working for twenty-five or twenty-six years at a bench, and has very little or no time to read or study any more than the daily paper, to answer such a que.=:tion. It is hardly fair to expect us to supply a remedy, when the greatest political economists in the world are puzzled over it I see the trouhle very plain- ly ; but certainly my mind is not equal to the occasion so far as a remedy is concerned. Q. The answer is a good one, no doubt; and yet you must admit that some remedy must be found ? A. The argument I advanced before the Committee at Albany was, that I thought if they tried to take the load ofE of one or two or three States, nobody could say a word. They asked us why hatters should have special legislation, and why not shoemakers. If theie are sixty thousand shoemakers in the State of New York, and if there are a thousand men . in the State prison making shoes, it wouldn't hurt these shoemakers out- side in the State verv greatly. Q. Would you obviate the evil by a diversity of industry? A. Certainly: that would be satisfactory to me. And I would con- tribute my little mite to making the prisons self-sustaining, which some people claim they ought to be. Q. . Then what you ask, or what the people whom you represent ask, is, that fewer men should be employed in any one trade ? A. That is the idea exactly. I am satisfied, if aU trades are treated alike, — if all get the same "dab with the brush " that I get. I am sat- isfied, if they make hats to a certain extent. Q. And you do not care under what system that result is attained ? A. Well, I should be sorry to have it done under the contract system. I don't like that system, on accoxmt of the brutality used towards the prisoners in making them work. Q. You would let the humanitarian views enter somewhat into the contract system ? A. I think it should be the primary object of a prison. Q. You would not take Mr. Ferry's views? A . I did not hear them. I was out part of the time while he was speaking. Q. Then we wiU not go into it. Would you make reformation, how- ever, a strong point in prison-discipline? A. Certainly. How are these men going to be better men after they come out, unless you try to do something with their minds, and endeavor to change their hearts while you have a chance? If that is not done, they go right back again. But when you take over fifty per cent of one trade, and draw it into a prison, and keep absorbing and drawing more and more that industry, it is hardly right. Q. The .men you represent would be satisfied with a diversity of in- dustry? A. I think so, sir. They are not unreasonable men. They are trades-union people ; but these trades-union people get a good deal of blame that they don't deserve. The hatters, as a class, are a very deserv- 302 ing class of people. The manufacturers who are here present will tell you that. And it would be more becoming in them to speak for us in that matter than for us to speak for ourselves. You never read in a news- paper of the hatters being on a long strike, and making trouble with their employers. In the hatters' business, when an employer wants his men to work for a little less than they have been getting, he tells them so, and the men get together in a body, and elect a president or chairman, and dis- cuss the question calmly and fairly, and then conclude either to make a compromise, or accept the rule. We are not fanatics at all. Mr. Yooum was asked in Albany whether he preferred trades-union people, or non- union men, and he said he preferred union men. They asked him why, and he said he thought the union men had usually some character at stake, and were honest men who did not wish to bring themselves into disrepute. Q. (By Mr. Tierney.) Can you explain what is known as the ' ' Pillsbury hat-making machine " ? A. I never heard of it, sir. Mr. Pillsbury himself told me in Alba- ny, when I explained to him the state of affairs in the hatters' trade, and how few hatters there were in the State of New York, that he would not have believed it. He asked me if it was true, and I said, " Yes." I said to him, "Mr. Pillsbury, will you come before the Committee and advo- cate the passage of our bill? " Well, he said he could not do that; that it would not be right for him to do that as an official. But he said, " I will go down and see the chairman of the Committee, Mr. Moores, and ask him not to put any thing in your way." He says, "I did not know there was so few of you in the State." And he said there would be no contracts given in the State. He said he had been approached lately by several parties (this was in 1878) to see about more contracts, and that he told them there would be no more. He says, " You are unduly op- pressed as a trade; but I did not know it before. You are entitled to some relief, and the present system is very wrong towards you." He told me that himself, in Albany, in 1878. 1 think that you must all con- cede that to take a trade like ours, and treat it in such way as to wipe it almost out of existence, is not exactly the correct thing. Q. Have there been any other contracts made since that time? A. No, sir. The option is with the contractor to continue or discon- tinue the present contract for three years longer. I believe it is all with him. He can do just as he wants to. We don't wish to break the con- tract, but let all others cease. Q. Is it not understood that there is^to be another contract in Clinton prison for the manufacture of hats? A. I haven't heard of it. But they are enlargmg the prison to the capacity of fifteen hundred convicts. <2. You believe in the reformation of the convict? A. Yes. If I was there myself a prisoner, I would like that part of it. Q. There should be as little onerous competition, too, on any one trade, as possible? A. Yes; ■ Q. And the way to avoid that, you think, is to introduce into pris- ons, under some system or other, as much diversity of industries as possible? A. Yes. . Q. So that there should be the fewest number of men possible em- ployed in any one industry ? A. Yes. I am at a disadvantage here, because you cannot expect much from a workingman ; but I thought I would give you my experi- ence and observation when I had an opportunity of seeing these convicts. You really would not believe the stories of the treatment of these people, whUe Mr. Pillsbury and his family live within a few hundred feet of these prisons. A prisoner is supposed to turn his back to a visitor, so 303 that the visitor will not see the prisoner's face ; and that sometimes works ^reat inconvenience, and, in fact, snfEering. I have seen women stand- ing m the cook-house, and compelled to stand in that position, and dare not move even their hands (I think they folded their arms), while the sweat was rolling down their faces from the heat and steam of the cook- house. I was a witness of that myself. And Mr. Pillsbury told me that was the only way to treat convicts so as to keep them down, and keep them under control. He says the discipline is good for the contractor too. You get more work out of the man by that system. I saw two men faced to wall, standing like statues, and asked the keeper what they were there for. " Well," he says, " they say they are sick; but they are not sick at all: they are only shamming." One of our delegation said to him, " If they ain't sick now, they pretty soon will be." The treatment is very brutalizing. When a man leaves that prison, he has no respect for the laws nor for the land. We introduced a bill into the Legislature that no contract should be given to anybody to employ a number greater than ten per cent of the number employed outside at the the same business. Q. (By Dr. Hunt.) Do you mean ten per cent of the number en- gaged in the trade in the State of New York, or in the country at large? A. Of N"ew York. The idea that we had in our arrangements for the bill last winter was, that, if there were nine hundred fur-hat manufactur- ers in New York (although the number does not equal that), they could take ten per cent of nine hundred, and work that number in the prison. Q. But suppose three hundred and fifty persons are working at the same business in New Jersey, or in Massachusetts, or in Connecticut ? A. We only introduced ours for the State of New York, and there would have to, be a different percentage for -the other States, I think, ac- cording to the number of people working at those trades in those States. Q. (By the Chairman.) Would the hatters of New York be satis- fled with that resolution ? A. Certainly. We tried to have it passed. Q. Would the hatters of the country be satisfied with that? A. I don't know, sir. There was another resolution introduced, in the interest of the moulders, by Gen. Rathbone, that ten per cent of the total number of prisoners in the State of New York should only be employejd in any one labor. Suppose there were four thousand convicts in the State of New York, and you should take four hundred of them, and put them to work on stoves, you can see the relief that the stove men would get right away. Because, instead of twelve hundred men working on stoves, there would be only four hundred. But Mr Rathbone's provis- ion, if applied to the hatters, would be no relief at all, because it would still keep four hundred men working on hats. , Q. (By Mr. Litchman.) If there are forty-eight thousand shoe- makers in Massachusetts, and ten per cent of that number, being forty- eight hundred men, were to be set at making shoes in the prisons, it would be hard on the shoemakers ? A. That is what I say, that it would not do for every State to have the same limit. Each State nmst fix the number for themselves, accord- ing to the number of mechanics outside the prison. It would take about a quarter of one per cent for the shoemakers in that case. Another bill was introduced by us last winter, doing away with the manufacture of hats in prisons, and that was looked on with more favor than the other; that is, we got more votes for the bill doing away with the manufacture of hats altogether than for the percentage bill. The majority of the Cpmmittee on Trades and Manufactures — five of them out of seven — said that they thought, on account of our number in the State, there should not be a hat manufactured in the prison of New York at all ; that we should get a little liberty for life and the chance to earn a living: and that bill was in better favor than the percentage bill. But, although we 304 put in both bills, we got nothing. We expect to do a little better this time. Mr. Cornell, the Republican candidate for governor, sent for a delegation of our body to call on him before election, and see him about the matter; and Mr. Tilden also sent for us. We asked Mr. Tilden to put a plank in the Syracuse platform in reference to this business ; and he did it. One of his vetoes in 1876 with regard to this convict-business was very good and a great benefit. We told him what we wanted, that the prison should be for the reformation of criminals, and not for the injury of honest people outside. We tried to get the Republican party to put a plank in their platform at Saratoga, but failed. Mr. Cornell sent for us, however, and told us, after we had represented the case to him, that it was an outrage; and he says, " Elected, or not elected, come and see after election-day ; and, if elected, I will put something in my message to the Legislature about it. And, if not elected, come and see me anyhow, and I will be a good friend of yours at Albany next winter." We intend to go and see him in a few days. Mr. Cornell recalled. Q. By the Chairman. Would the trade which you represent — the hatters' trade — be satisfied with a percentage of limitation governing the trades in piison ? A. I have every reason to suppose they