(gomell HnioeraitH ffiibrarg ailjata, Ncm $otk Cornell University Library Z792.B86 G78 1860 Report rom the select committee on the 3 1924 029 534 918 olin Overs <} Cornell University Library The original of this book is in the Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924029534918 E E P O E T FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM; TOGETHER WITH THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 10 August i860. ii ] Martis, 24° <&? ApriUs, 1860. Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire how far, and in what way, it may be desirable to find increased space for the Extension and Arrangement of the various Collections of the British Museum, and the best means of rendering them available for the Promotion of Science and Art. Mercurii, 9° die Mail, 1860. Committee nominated of — Sir George Grey. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Turner. Lord Stanley. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Walpole. Mr. Tite. Sir Philip Egerton. Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Knight. Lord Elcho. Mr. Puller. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Gregory. Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for Persons, Papers, and Records. Ordered, That Five be the Quorum of the Committee. Veneris, 25° die Maii, 1860. Ordered, That the Report of the Commissioners on the British Museum (presented in Session 1850), and the Report of the National Gallery Site Commission (presented in Ses- sion 1857), and Parliamentary Papers, Nos. 42 and 557 of Session 1852, Nos. 379, 434, and 456, of Session 1858, Nos. 126 and 126-1. of Session 1859, and No. 87 of the present Session, be referred to the Committee. Mercurii, 13° die Junii, 1860. Ordered, That the Committee have power to adjourn from place to place. Veneris, 10° Augusti, 1860. Ordered, That the Committee have power to report their Observations, together with the Minutes of Evidence taken before them, to The House. REPORT p. Si PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE p. XY MINUTES OF EVIDENCE p. 1 APPENDIX p. 235 [ iii ] REPORT. THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed to inquire how far, and in what way, it may be desirable to find increased Space for the Extension and Arrangement of the various Collections of the British Museum, and the best means of rendering them available for the Promotion of Science and Art ; Have considered the Matters to them referred, and have agreed to the following REPORT :— Your Committee having duly considered the subject submitted to them, are o£ opinion that their reply to the first branch of the inquiry, which relates to the provision of additional space for the collections in the British Museum, may be conveniently arranged under the following heads : — I. Whether all the collections in the British Museum should be retained in the present locality, or whether any and which of them should be removed elsewhere ? II. What amount of space is requisite for the proper accommodation and exhibition of the collections proposed to be retained, and of those likely to accrue within such a period as it is prudent to provide for ? III. Whether such space can, with due regard to economy, be obtained in con- nexion with the British Museum ? IV. What structural conditions in the buildings provided are indispensable for the proper arrangement of the collections ? I. Whether all the collections in the British Museum should be retained -m in their present locality, or whether any and which of them should be removed elsewhere? Hi. Natural History Collections. — The removal of the Natural History Col- lections has, from the discussions that have taken place both in Parliament and • among the Trustees of the Museum, and from the general interest which this question has excited both in the scientific world, and among the public at large, primarily engaged the attention of Your Committee. The arguments against removal may be summed up as derived, 1st. From the central position of the- British Museum. 2d. From the advantages of connexion with the great national library. 3d. From the expense involved in the construction of a new Natural History Museum, and the transfer of the collections to it. 4th. From the risk of injury to valuable specimens and the interruption to Q. 773. 830-31. scientific inquiry consequent upon the time unavoidably requisite for 845-6. packing, transporting, unpacking, and rearranging the collections. 1st. The witnesses examined have almost unanimously testified to the prefer- ence over the other collections, with which the Natural History Collections are viewed by the ordinary and most numerous frequenters of the Museum. This preference is easily accounted for ; the objects exhibited, especially the birds, Jrom their beauty of plumage, are calculated to attract and amuse the spectators. 540.- a 2 The iv REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE The eye has been accustomed in many instances to the living specimens in the Zoological Gardens, and cheap publications and prints have rendered their forms more or less familiar. It is indeed easily intelligible, that while for the full appre- ciation of works of archaeological interest and artistic excellence a special education must be necessary, the works of nature may be studied with interest and instruction by all persons of ordinary intelligence. It appears from evidence, that many of the middle classes are in the habit of forming collections in various branches of Natural History, and that many even of the working classes employ their holidays in the study of botany or geology, or in the collection of insects obtained in the neigh- bourhood of London ; that they refer to the British Museum in order to ascertain the proper classification of the specimens thus obtained, and that want of leisure alone restrains the further increase of this class of visitors. Your Committee, in order to confirm their view of the peculiar popularity of the Natural History Collections, beg to refer to a return from the Principal Librarian, which shows the number of visitors in the several public portions of the Museum, at the same hour of the day, during 15 open days, from the 15th June to the 11th July 18G0. From this it appears that 2,557 persons were in the galleries of Antiquities at the given hour, and 1 ,056 in the King's Library and MSS. Rooms ; while 3,378 were in the Natural History Galleries ; showing an excess of 220 per cent, in the Natural History Department over the King's Library and MSS. Rooms, and of 33 per cent, over the Galleries of Antiquities, notwithstanding that the latter are of considerably greater extent than the Galleries of Natural History. The evidence received by Your Committee induces the belief that the removal of these mo'^t popular collections from their present central position to one less generally accessible would excite much dissatisfaction, not merely among a large portion of the inhabitants of the metropolis, but among the numerous inhabitants of the country, who from time to time visit London by railway, and to whom the proximity of the British Museum to most of the railway termini, as compared with the distance of the localities to which it has been proposed to transport such col- lections, is of great practical importance. Similar evidence shows that the pro- posed removal of these collections from the British Museum has excited grave and general disapprobation in the scientific world. Your Committee cannot here employ more f forcible language than that made use of in a memorial, signed by 114 persons,, .including many eminent promoters and cultivators of science in England, andi presented to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1848. The follow- ing are their words :—" We beg to add the expression of our opinion that the removal of the Natural History Collections from the site where they have been established for upwards of a century, in the centre of London, particularly if to any situation,, distant from that centre, would be viewed by the mass of the inhabi- tants with extreme disfavour, it being a well-known fact, that by far the greater, number of visitors to the Museum consists of those who frequent the halls conf , taining the ^atural History Collections, while it is obvious that many of thosV persons who come from the densely peopled districts of the eastern, northern, and southern parts of London, would feel it very inconvenient to resort to any distant locality." - J 2dly. The advantages of connexion with the great national library. The attention of Your Committee has been directed to the assistance which the student of Natural History derives from the magnificent library close at hand affording him the advantage of finding every possible literary illustration of his subject, m immediate connexion with the objects of his study. Should the Natural History Collections be removed, the purchase of a special and comprehensive library for spndy and reference would become indispensable. 3dly. The expense involved in the construction of a new Natural History Museum, and the transfer of the collections to it. The force of the argument derived from this consideration can be justly esti- mated only , by a comparison of the expense which would provide lor the construc- ts ofay Natural History Museum on some other site, and dro fo^Bwh extension if any of the British Museum, as may be required adequately to provide for the other collections, with the expense which would be incurred bv such an enlargement of the present Museum as would adequately pravXS^eSiiSJ and ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. v and arrangement of all the collections now preserved there, including the Natural History Collections. Your Committee have taken some evidence on this point. Three sites have heen referred to in the evidence as available for the purpose, in case these collections should be removed. The first is a portion of the land in the neighbourhood of Kensington, belonging to the Royal Commissioners for the Exhibition of 1851, the second is the present site of Burlington House, the third is a plot of ground near Victoria-street, Westminster. As to the first, Your Committee examined the Secretary to the Commissioners in order to ascertain whether the estimate of the price at which the land in question could be obtained Mas correct, as stated in a Report from a Special Committee of the Trustees of the British Museum, which is to be„found in a Paper presented to the House of Commons on 15th February 1860, and in which the price of that land was assumed to be 5,000 /. an acre. It appeared from Mr. Bowring's evidence, that this estimate had been formed without authority from the Commissioners, and that the marketable value of the land was 20,000/. an acre, but that the Commissioners would be willing to dispose of the quantity required for a Natural History Museum at the rate of 10,000 1, an acre, with the exception of a small portion of it, or about a quarter of an acre, the price of which would not exceed the rate of 5,000 I. an acre. Assuming that five and a half acres would be required, the cost of the land would be 53,750 1. As to the second of these sites, Your Committee would refer to the evidence of Mr. Pennethorne, the architect of the Board of Works, from which it appears that the area purchased by the Government (including Burlington House and the ground around it) at the price of about 150,000/., and which has not yet been •permanently appropriated to any public object, contains 144 000 superficial feet, or rather more than three acres. As to the last of the suggested sites, Your Committee would refer to the evidence of Mr. Rigby Wason, who stated that more than 14 acres might be there obtained, at the rate of 7,000 1, an acre. On the other hand, various plans have been laid before Your Committee for the enlargement of the Museum, by the acquisition of land adjoining it, and the erection thereon of the requisite buildings. There is no doubt mat the land adjoining the Museum is fully adequate in extent for that purpose. The ground which might be obtained on the north, east, and west sides of the Museum amounts altogether to about 5k acres and the price per acre would, according to Mr. Smirke's estimate, be 40,000Z. or 50,000/. (2413), or, for the whole, about 240,000/. The question, whether the whole, or if not the whole how much, of this land would be required for the purposes of the Museum, and. what proportion of it would be required for the Natural History Collections, falls within the second head of inquiry which Your Committee have proposed for consideration. With respect, however, to the question of expense, the comparative cost of the buildings to be erected on ground contiguous to the Museum, and on a separate site, must be taken into account. Your Committee have not received any conclusive evidence on this point. The formation of a Special Natural History Library would, according to the evidence taken by Your Committee, cost about 30,000 I. at the present time ; whilst the daily increase in the literature of natural history will necessitate further expenditure from time to time on works which frequently contain costly illustra- tions. The nation will have thus to incur the expense of two libraries, and to support two librarians and a double establishment of attendants for the charge of the same works. The attention of Your Committee was also called to the expense 1 which the additional working staff necessary for the new establishment wOuld entail ; to the cost of the transfer of such large collections to another locality, and to the out- lay on fittings necessary for their reception. With reference to the comparative expense of removing the Natural History Collections to a new site and retaining them at the Museum, it is contended that the removal of them would not in any material degree supersede the necessity of purchasing additional land and constructing new buildings in contiguity with the British Museum, for the pur- pose of providing adequate accommodation for the Archaeological Collections, the heavier portion of which, in the opinion of all the witnesses examined on that 540. a 3 subject, VI REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE Q. 773- 830-31. 845-6. subject, ought to be exhibited on the ground floor. This, however, raises a question which can only be fully considered under the 2d and 4th heads of inquiry. 4th. From the risk of injury to valuable specimens, and the interruption to scientific inquiry, consequent upon the time unavoidably requisite for packing, transporting, unpacking, and re-arranging the collections : Under this head the Committee would refer to the evidence of the Keeper of the Palseontological Department, wherein he stated that he apprehended ^ much injury and loss in the removal of objects under his care. The interruption to scientific studies consequent upon the time required for the removal of the col- lections has been .alluded to by several of the men of science who have been examined by the Committee. The Witnesses in favour of the removal of the Natural History Collection to another site, support their view by urging the following considerations : — That visitors are bewildered and confused by the extent and variety of the collections in the British Museum. That there is no advantage in retaining the collections of Art and those of Natural History in the same building. That in no age or country has it ever been attempted to bring together such mixed and extensive collections as those of the British Museum, nor has it been thought expedient to unite them when separately formed. Panizzi, 423, 424. That the separation of some of the collections from the rest will facilitate the management of the Museum, and tend to remove any feeling of jealousy between the departments, arising from an impression that an advantage is given to one over another, and that too much space is occupied, as well as expense caused by rival departments. Panizzi, 133. 332. That want of space will prove injurious to the proper growth and increase of the collections, as has been formerly the case. Panizzi, 337. Owen, 571. Layard, 2607, 2608. Newton, 3192, 3193- Panizzi, 141. 3522, 3523, 3524- Panizzi, 109, 110. Panizzi, 64. 68. 479. 482. 3531. 3543-355°- Owen, 622. Panizzi, 3311. Cole, 2985. Bowring, 3364, 3365. 3366. 3375- Panizzi, 3510. Bowring, 3381. That if the whole site surrounding the Museum were to be purchased and applied to the present pressing wants for the exhibition of its collections, a time would necessarily arrive when no convenient space could be found available for the col- lections of printed books and manuscripts. These must necessarily be placed handy to the Reading Room, which no one will think of removing. That the expedient suggested of diminishing the exhibition of objects in which the public takes so much interest is a retrograde step which, however unobjection- able on the part of privileged scientific men, must prove inconvenient and injurious to the public generally, whose means of instruction and amusement would thus be curtailed. That the large masses that visit the Crystal Palace, the Kensington Museum, the Zoological Gardens, Kew, and Hampton Court, tend to show that the removal of the Natural History Collections to a less central place would not prove incon- venient to the generality of the public. It is also the opinion of Professor Owen, that the cost of packing and un- packing is much exaggerated, and that the removal of the Natural History Collec- tions of the British Museum is a very easy task ; that the Library of Sir Joseph Banks ought to go with the Natural History Collections ; and that if this were done, an extra grant, of 10,000 I. would be sufficient for a complete library of natural history. Your Committee reserves the expression of their opinion on this branch of inquiry to a later part of the Report. Pictures. — Your Committee have received evidence that a large number of portraits, all of them of eminent personages, are now occupying space in the orni- thological galleries. This position is obviously incongruous, and it may deserve consideration whether their removal to a more appropriate situation may not be effected with the sanction of the Government. Drawings and Prints. — There seems from the evidence to be a general consent, that the drawings of great masters should be under the same roof, and in con- tiguity with, their pictures. This is the plan pursued in the chief continental museums. ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. rii museums, and it is obviously of great assistance to the student in comparing the first designs of great masters with their subsequently finished works. With regard to the drawings in the British Museum, inasmuch as the National Gallery of Pictures is already overcrowded, it would be impossible now to transfer them to it. Should, however, a National Gallery at any future period be con- structed on a sufficient scale to contain both the pictures and drawings belonging to the nation, it would deserve consideration whether the drawings in the British Museum should now be transferred to that establishment. Your Committee, however, consider that the prints stand in a different position. Although many of these prints are unquestionably works of the highest art, and as such of importance to the art student, still the motive which prompted the col- lection of prints in the British Museum maybe considered as not entirely nor even mainly artistic. The archaeologist seeks for the earlier examples of engraving to connect them with the work of the goldsmith, and with the art of printing ; he traces the peculiar processes of engraving upon wood and metal, from its inception to its development ; while the historian connects such works with the annals of the country wherein they were created, with the state of civilisation that pro- duced them, and with cities, buildings, and costumes, which they illustrate. 4. Ethnography. Your Committee have received evidence from every witness examined on this subject in fovourof the removal of the ethnographical collections. Great additional space would be required, if it be intended that the British Museum should be the depository of a complete ethnographical collection, and it is probable that a more suitable receptacle might be found for it elsewhere. 5. British and Mediaeval Collections. The British collections may be divided into four sections : 1st. Pre-historic. — Consisting of the relics of the early inhabitants of these islands, of whose history we possess no written records, comprising a series com- mencing with rude stone implements, and terminating with bronze castings of fine workmanship, occasionally enamelled, supposed to be contemporary Avith the con- quest of Britain by Caesar. 2d. Roman. — The relics of the Roman occupation of Britain. 3d. Saxon. — The antiquities of the Teutonic settlers in Britain, commencing about the 4th Century, a. d., and terminating at the Norman Conquest. 4th. English Mediaeval. — Consisting of antiquities of various kinds, including sculptures, ecclesiastical furniture and memorials, pilgrims' signs, seals, pottery, personal ornaments, weapons, &c. &c, illustrating the manners and customs, the tastes, and habits of thought of our forefathers subsequent to the Norman Conquest. With regard to the British portion of the collections, it is contended that the British Museum is pre-eminently fitted to be the depository of objects found in the British islands, and illustrating their history ; that English archaeologists would deeply regret to see any severance of these sections from one another based on an arbitrary principle ; and that a national collection of antiquities is to the anti- , quary what a collection of fossils is to the geologist. The Mediaeval Collections consist of antiquities illustrating evente of history, the progress of art, or the manners and customs and mental culture of various nations. The evidence received upon the subject of the retention or the removal of these collections has been most conflicting, both proposals having received the appro- bation of high authority. By the advocates of retention it is alleged that these antiquities are so intimately connected with those of the earlier, and classical periods, that they form links of one great chain which it would be most preju- 540. a 4 dicial viii REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE dicial to scientific investigation to disconnect ; that many of them are the sole evidence that we possess of pre-historic times ; that their combination with works of comparatively modern art would be incongruous and injurious to both, and that it would be impossible to lay down any principle of separation by which the mediaeval collections could be properly divided from those of an earlier period. They also allege the necessity of connecting the British and mediaeval collections with the national library, containing so many rare and valuable works of heraldry and topography necessary for the prosecution of these studies ; that the same persons, having frequently in earlier times produced engravings and other works of art, these do to a certain extent illustrate one another, and are therefore con- veniently kept in the same museum ; that assistance is afforded by mediaeval MSS. as the best illustrations of mediaeval manners and customs, and consequently of mediaeval antiquities; they claim the early book-bindings as in fact antiquities of the mediaeval or renaissance period ; they insist on the necessity of having mediaeval antiquities in connexion with contemporary coins, which all the witnesses propose to retain in the British Museum, and which furnish a mass of dated information to the archaeological student; and they challenge their opponents to separate with any certainty many of the gems, bronzes, and other works of the cinque cento period, from those of a classical epoch. The advocates of separation admit that the removal of any portion of the col- lections involves a disconnexion in the chain of archaeology ; but they contend that, unless a building as vast as the Louvre be constructed to contain the art and antiquities of all times under one roof, a line must be drawn somewhere; that this line can be drawn with least inconvenience at the epoch of Constantine the Great, which marks the final suppression of Paganism as a state religion ; and that from this period the old Pagan motive in art disappears more and more rapidly, and new ideas springing out of Christianity, and from the ascendancy Of barbaric invaders, assume a sufficiently distinct and tangible form. They there- fore advocate one museum for all Christian art. They lay down the broad principle of separation from the remains of antiquity, wherever a Christian emblem or motive can be discerned, and they thus propose to exhibit how, after the classical spirit had died out, new art sprung into life, called into existence by the vivifying power of a new religion. As regards the objects discovered in this country, they would place all English, as distinguished from British antiquities, under the division of Christian art, while the British and Anglo-Roman antiquities would be retained in the British Museum as a portion of Pagan art. They contend that these latter objects cannot be isolated, and viewed solely with a feeling of national sentiment, but should be looked upon as a portion of the history of the Pagan world so comprehensively illustrated in 1 the British Museum ; that the line of separation between Pagan and Christian, in spite of a certain amount of casuistry which may always be employed in raising objections, may very readily be established ; that a well-selected library, gradually formed, would be sufficient for the ordinary uses of a museum of Christian art ; that the expense of two museums, differing in theory as to purpose, yet practically collecting the same class of specimens, such as enamels, glass, pottery, &c, must be disapproved of by Parliament and the nation ;- that a strong feeling will ultimately be raised in the public mind in consequence of this double expenditure ; that, instead of having one fine collection of Christian art, embracing archaeological as well as artistic subjects, both collections will be weakened ; and that a series of objects, chosen from archaeological motives, when combined with a series chosen for artistic and educational purposes, would form a harmonious and instructive whole. Having considered the arguments on both sides of this question, Your Com- mittee would observe, that the British Museum is a repository in which objects of historical or archaeological interest ought to find a place, without limitation to any particular time or country ; that there is no more reason for keeping mediaeval anti- quities separate from those of Greece and Rome, than for placing the latter apart from the remains of Egypt and Assyria ; that if space were assigned, and a fair pro- portion of the public grant were allotted to it, the department of Mediaeval Anti- quities would soon become one of great interest to the public, and great value to the student of history, and probably be enriched by valuable bequests and gifts. II. What ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. i x II. What amount of space is requisite for the proper accommodation and exhi- bition of the collections proposed to be retained, and of those likely to accrue within such a period as it is prudent to provide for ? 1st. As regards the collections of Natural History on the assumption that they are to be retained : The amount of space required for this Department of the British Museum depends, to a great extent, on the principle of arrangement adopted. Two widely different opinions on this point have been urged before Your Committee, involving a practical question of great importance. On the one hand, the Superintendent of Natural History, Professor Owen, states, that, for the purposes of exhibition, varieties are now as important as species ; that conclusions are much facilitated by 624. 630. comparison, and comparison is much easier between stuffed specimens placed before the eye at once than between skins taken one by one out of a drawer ; that he attaches great importance to the systematic exhibition of species a little different, to show the way in which one order is modified and has a transition into another, and the way in which the different modifications blend one with another, so that the great features of the class may be seen. To carry out these views, he cal- culates that it will be necessary to provide buildings which, if containing galleries on two floors, as he recommends, will cover five acres ; if npon one floor, ten acres. On the other hand, with this eminent exception, the whole of the scientific naturalists who have been examined before Your Committee, includ- ing the Keepers of all the Departments of Natural History in the British Museum, are of opinion that an exhibition on so large a scale tends alike to the needless bewilderment and fatigue of the public, and the impediment of the studies of the scientific visitor. These witnesses, therefore, strongly recom- mend a limited, though liberal exhibition of the collections, upon the principle of arrangement technically described as typical. This principle, recognising the universally admitted fact that the majority of the specimens in every zoological and paleeontological collection which approaches completeness, are useful, and indeed intelligible, only to the skilled naturalist, requires the separation of such a collection into two portions ; the one, consisting of specimens illustrative of the leading points both of popular and of scientific interest, connected with the class to which they belong, and the other of specimens which have an exclusively scientific value. The former collection is to be displayed with all the art of the taxidermist, so as to arrest the attention and awaken the interest of the casual visitor ; while the latter, stored in a comparatively small compass, . and with little expense, in drawers and cases, is to be at all times conveniently accessible to the student. In corroboration of these views, several of the same witnesses insist on the inevitable deterioration which constant exposure to light effects in specimens of the animal kingdom ; in many instances, destroying or changing the colours Of mammalia, birds, shells, and insects, so as to render them useless either for scientific or popular exhibition. The necessary result, it is contended, of an indiscriminate exposure of objects so sensitive must be either that incorrect or imperfect ideas will be communicated by the display of faded specimens, or that constant and heavy demands must be made on the public purse for the replacement of such specimens. It is, however, admitted by two at least of the scientific naturalists above referred to, "that the notions abroad about type collections are excessively vague, and that they convey not the same idea to any two men." Waterhouse 837. And again, that the word " type " is used in two different senses. Sclater 2809. In deciding between these conflicting opinions. Your Committee think it im- possible to overlook the weight due to economical considerations. A valuable assistance to their judgment on this point has been furnished by the Keport of the Special Committee of Trustees appointed November 26, 1859, from which it appears that quite irrespectively of the cost of ground, which necessarily varies in different localities, the expense of buildings covering five acres and a half would probably amount to about 567,000/. To this must be added the expense of fittings. Your Committee, therefore, recommend the adoption of the more limited kind of exhibition advocated by the other witnesses, in preference to the more extended method recommended by Professor Owen. Your Committee proceed to slate the demands of the Keepers of the various Departments of Natural History, as follows : — < : 1. Zoology. — Your Committee have received evidence from the Keeper of this department, that with the addition of a room for the exhibition of osteology, and 540. b the x REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE the construction of galleries over the wall cases in the ornithological room, not for display but for storage, there would be sufficient space to satisfy all his present requirements. He also thinks about eight or ten good sized rooms would be desirable for studies, but he does not state the number of superficial feet requisite for these purposes. Your Committee are, however, of opinion, that in any re-arrangement of the Natural History Department, a proper gallery for the exhibition of mammalia should be provided, and the ill-lighted and inconvenient room in which a large portion, of this collection is now placed should be so altered as to become available for the display of other and smaller objects of Natural History. Your Committee are not prepared to state the exact dimensions of such a gallery. As to the likelihood of a great and immediate increase in this section of Natural History, it is difficult to arrive at any certain conclusion. 2. Geology. — The Keeper of the Geological Department estimates the probable demands for the exhibition of his collections for the next 20 years at 9,059 addi- tional superficial feet In making this estimate he presumes that skylights are to be made in rooms 28, 30, 31. (See Plan 18, Parliamentary Paper, 1 July 1858, No. 379) ; that the windows of those rooms are to be blocked up, which would allow of a considerable increase of wall cases, fitted to hold large fossils ; and that room 33 in the same plan, now partially devoted to studies, will be set free and opened to the public. Other space will, in that case, have to be provided for the purpose to which room 33 is now appropriated. This proposal of the Keeper of Geology has already been recommended by the. sub-committee of Natural History, and approved of by the standing committee, of Trustees ; but in consequence of changes supposed to be impending, and pos- sibly involving the removal of some of the collections, the sanction of the Treasury has been refused to these alterations. 3. Mineralogy. — The Keeper of Mineralogy makes no demand for space at present for purposes of exhibition ; he, however, contemplates accessions, but is of opinion that an additional room, of the size of the largest now occupied by him, containing 2,740 superficial feet, would be sufficient for his wants for 20 years. For the officers of the Mineralogical Department it will be also necessary to provide studies and working rooms. In all the Departments of Natural History, studies should be provided for the use of visitors specially recommended, and desirous of consulting the collections. Upon this point there has been unanimity of opinion among the witnesses examined. Under any circumstances rooms should be furnished for the student to pursue his researches undisturbed ; but the propriety of this arrangement being, adequately carried out becomes still more imperative, from the typical mode of exhibition recommended by Your Committee. Your Committee have not, how- ever, received any evidence as to the amount of space which will be required for studies and working rooms. 4. Botany. — The Keeper of this department states that, with a small amount of easily accessible store-room, he would have ample space for all his present col- lections and future wants. II. Drawing's and Prints. The demands of the Keeper of this department, both for the present collections and for future accessions during the next half century, include another room of the same size (50 x 30 feet) as the present room marked 20 in Plan 18, and two- rooms for exhibition each 60 x 40 feet; making a total of about 8,000 feet of floor space. Your Committee would however observe, that should the drawings be removed to the National Gallery at any future time, less exhibition space would be required. III. Collections of Antiquities. The amount of space required for buildings adequate to the due accommodation and exhibition of the archaeological, and particularly of the sculptural collections, is ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. xi is intimately connected with the question of the structural arrangement of the galleries appropriated to them. For the present Your Committee will confine themselves to a general statement of the number of superficial feet of floor space estimated by the Keeper of this Department to' be necessary for exhibition-rooms. The Keeper of this Department has put in a demand for 61,469 additional superficial feet of floor space for exhibition. This supposes the relinquishment by this department of upwards of 14,000 feet in the basement now necessarily employed, though totally unfit, for the exhibition of sculpture. It also assumes the retention in the Museum of the Ethnographical Collection, and the devotion to it of a space of 10,000 feet, being four times as great as that which it now occupies. This estimate provides not merely for all the present collections, but also for moderate accessions. Upon this point Your Committee would observe that, whereas the increase in the Department of Natural History is gradual, but constant, the increase in this department is of a different character. Considerable intervals of time may elapse before any great necessity for additional space arrives. But Sir Charles Fellowes explores Lycia, Mr. Layard opens the mounds of Assyria, Mr. Davis excavates among the ruins of Carthage, and Mr. Newton lays bare the Mausoleum. Each of these discoveries, revealing as they do objects of the highest value to the scientific and artistic world, at once claim a place for their reception. Your Committee therefore, in contemplating an extension of the Museum, have been disposed in the Natural History Department, in consequence of the gradual but constant increase referred to, to allow for space likely to be required within a moderate period of time ; but in the case of the Department of Antiquities, from not being able to form any idea of the character of the accessions that may eventually accrue, and consequently of the nature of the galleries and of the light that may be required, Your Committee would suggest that while ample space should be secured for future extension, buildings should not be constructed with a view to the future, but for the present, and always on such a plan as would admit of easy, cheap, and systematic extension. The total amount of space therefore which would be required, so far as an accurate estimate has been laid before Your Committee, is 81,268 superficial feet. To this must be added the unascertained space required, as before mentioned, for the Department' of Zoology, and for the studies and working rooms which have been recommended. On the other hand, 10,000 feet would have to be deducted if the ethnographical collection should be removed. At the same time it is obvious that the total area thus required need not be all on one floor. III. Whether such space can with due regard to economy be obtained in connexion with the British Museum. It appears from a former portion of this Report that the ground immediately surrounding the Museum, within the adjacent streets on the east, west, and north .sides, comprises altogether about 5\ acres, valued by Mr. Smirke at about 240,000/. As the proprietary interest in all this ground belongs to a single owner, Your Committee are of opinion that it would be a convenient, and possibly even a profitable, arrangement for the State at once to purchase that interest, and to re- ceive the rents of the lessees in return for the capital invested. The State would then have the power, whenever any further extension of the Museum became necessary to obtain possession of such of the houses as might best suit the purpose in view. Independently, however, of this larger suggestion, Your Committee are fully convinced, both from the uniform purport of the Papers printed at different times "by the House of Commons, and from the statements of the various witnesses whom they have now examined, that it is indispensable, not merely to the ap- propriate exhibition of our unequalled national collections, but even to the avoidance of greater ultimate expense through alterations and re-arrangements, that sufficient space should be immediately acquired in connexion with the British Museum to meet the requirements of the several departments which have been enumerated under the last head, and that such space should throughout be adapted by its position, extent, and facilities of application, to the arrangement of the collections on a comprehensive, and, therefore, probably permanent system. They will now proceed to point out several sites, either on or adjoining the present ground of the Museum, which seem to them to present the greatest advantages for the accommodation of the respective departments. 540. b 2 Natural Xll REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE Natural History.— Although the amount of space which on the foregoing estimate would he requisite for the Natural History Collections is not so great as to involve the necessity of their removal from the British Museum on that ground alone Your Committee nevertheless attach so much weight to the arguments in favour of preserving the various departments of the Museum from the risk oi collision with each other, that should it he determined to provide new space tor Natural History in connexion with the Museum, they would make it a primary object to isolate its collections, as far as possible, from all others in the same locality. The chief part of the Natural History collections is now on the upper floor, where they occupy, according to the return of Mr. Smirke in November 1857, 48,442 superficial feet. The remainder of that floor, containing, exclusively of a small space not reckoned by Mr. Smirke, 21,532 feet, is occupied by anti- quities. It appears to Your Committee that if, by any adaptation of ground to be acquired adjoining the Museum, adequate space could be provided elsewhere for the antiquities now on the upper floor, the most expedient arrangement would be to appropriate the whole of that floor to the Natural History collections. If this space proved insufficient for all such collections, Your Committee would then recommend that the newly acquired portion should be applied exclusively to the Department of Zoology ; and that a sufficient portion of ground should be pur- chased on the north side of the Museum as a site for galleries to provide for Mineralogy, and thus also indirectly for Geology. Prints and Drawings.— A convenient site for this department would, in the opinion of Your Committee, be provided by the suggested acquisition of additional ground on the north side. A building might there be erected in continuation of the present east wing of the Museum, to contain on its upper floor the Mineralogical collections, and on its lower the Prints and Drawings, with adequate space both for their preservation and exhibition. Antiquities.— In determining the site most suitable for the large additional accommodation required for this department, Your Committee would be guided partly by the greater or less cost of purchasing the requisite amount of ground in .different directions, but chiefly by the greater or less fitness of the different portions of ground for the best system of arrangement. Ycur Committee have received various suggestions upon this point, mainly advocating extension to the west, which will be found in the "evidence, and to which they have no doubt the attention of the Trustees and of the Government will be carefully directed. IV. What structural conditions in the buildings provided are indispensable for the proper arrangement of the collections ? Your Committee are unwilling to express an opinion upon this point without having before them all the plans which may be recommended. All such plans should be carefully examined by professional men, both with regard to their architectural design and the internal arrangement which may be considered best for the preservation and exhibition of the different collections. The following observations of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the constitution of the British Museum are so just and so appropriate, with reference to this branch of the subject, that Your Committee desire to adopt them. {See Report 1850, p. 38.) " It seems to us that any scheme for additional buildings should be based in the first instance on reports from Ihe several departments of the Museum, con- taining all attainable information of the present and future exigencies of each .department. That it should be for the Trustees to digest a scheme, founded on these reports,' and upon full and free communication with the officers, for the consideration of Her Majesty's Government. If such a course were pursued, we conceive that responsibility for architectural results would mainly henceforth attach to the Trustees, not, perhaps, to any of them as individuals, but to them as a corporation, alive to its corporate character and reputation ; and so far a better depositary of such special responsibility than an administration of the day, a Com- mittee of the House of Commons, or a Commission pro Mc vice. In such case, the records of the Museum itself, the minutes of its meetings, and its correspond- ence with the, Government, would at once show to any future inquirers under the sanction ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. xiii sanction of what authority, by the guidance of what reasons and principles, or the influence of what accidents, results, whether adjudged upon experience to be satis- factory or defective, had been obtained. Evidence would be forthcoming of the difficulties which had been encountered, of the extent to which the views of the Trustees had been accepted or overruled, which would enable public opinion to do retrospective justice to all concerned, and would be useful for the guidance of any further operations." To these observations, the only remark which Your Committee would deem it expedient to add is this, that before any plans are actually adopted, and the necessary Estimate voted for the purpose, such plans should, in the opinion of Your Committee, be laid before both Houses of Parliament. As a concluding, but very important, part of the inquiry into the extent and character of accommodation required for the collections, Your Committee think it their duty to mention the plans which have been brought under their considera- tion, both for the purchase of ground, and the erection of buildings, adjoining the Museum. 1. The plan of Mr. Smirke, the architect to the Museum, which, in its amended form, is briefly described in his letter to Mr. PaniAi of the 3d December 1 857. 2. That submitted to Your Commiftee by Professor Maskelyne, Keeper of the Mineralogical Collections in the Museum, as a provision both for his own depart- ment, and that of Geology. 3. That of Mr. Oldfield, who is employed in the Archaeological Department of Antiquities, a plan intended to provide immediately for that Department, and indirectly for the several departments of Natural History. Your Committee have reason to think that if any of these plans* were adopted involving the purchase of not more than two acres of land, with the requisite buildings and alterations, the cost would not exceed 300,000 I. If, however, only this limited portion of land should be at once acquired, it is probable that the price of what remains would be enhanced. If the whole were to be purchased, as your Committee have already recommended, the cost above stated would be of course increased. The cost of the land and buildings required to carry out the plan for the removal of the Natural History Collections to Kensington, according to the estimate con- tained in the report of the Special Committee of Trustees, which was founded on the assumption that 51 acres of land are necessary, would amount to 620,000 I. To this sum would have to be added the expense of a Departmental Library, of packing and removing the collections, and of the extensive fittings and cases required in the new Museum — expenses all forming part of the first cost of this plan, and independent of the additional annual charge for augmentations of the Departmental Library, and for the maintenance of the requisite staff both for that library, and for the greatly enlarged public galleries of exhibition. If, however, the limited principle of exhibition for the Natural History Collec- tions should be adopted, less land would be required, and the estimate for build- ings might be greatly reduced. But neither of these arrangements would obviate the necessity of providing the additional space required for the Department of Antiquities at the British Museum. Your Committee can form no accurate estimate of the cost, if either of the other two sites before mentioned should be selected. Lnder all these circumstances, and upon a full consideration of the evidence adduced, Your Committee have arrived at the conclusion that sufficient reason has not been assigned for the removal of any part of the valuable collections now in the Museum, except that of Ethnography, and the portraits and drawings, as previously recommended. Lectures. With regard to the last branch of the reference, namely, the means by which the collections in the British Museum may be made most available to the interest 540. ' 03 of xiv REPORT :— BRITISH MUSEUM. of science and art, it has been suggested that lectures should be delivered in con- nection with the Museum ; but Your Committee are of opinion, that though it would be of the greatest advantage that the meaning of the various collections should be rendered as intelligible as possible to the public, yet it is questionable whether the conversion of the Museum into an educational institution would not be a departure from the principle on which it rests. Your Committee look on the British Museum as primarily being a great consultative repertory. Serious practical objections, moreover, may be urged to the delivery of lectures within its precincts. 1 st. If these lectures are to be given by officers of the Museum, are they to be compulsory or voluntary ? If compulsory, duties will be imposed on gentlemen for which they may be unfit, and for which they were not chosen. If voluntary, feelings might possibly be stimulated among officers of the institution unfavourable to the harmony essential to its well-being. It has, however, been proposed, that the delivery of lectures should be compulsory, not on the present, but on the future officers of the Museum. In this suggestion Your Committee cannot concur. The qualities calculated to attract an audience are by no means the qualities flecessary to constitute a good curator. Patient re- search, constant attention to details, care in the compilation of catalogues, taste and skill in arrangement, capacity of administration, are essential in the one, an easy delivery and power of popular illustration are chiefly required in the other. Should the delivery of lectures be made an essential duty of the officers, Your Com- mittee fear that in future appointments it would be difficult for the Principal Trustees to resist the pressure that would be employed to induce them to select candidates for the last named qualities, rather than for the former. The practical effect might be the appointment of inferior curators on account of their qualifica- tions as lecturers, or inferior lecturers on account of their qualifications as curators. 2d. If, on the other hand, lectures were to be given within the Museum by persons not connected with it, but selected for the occasion, other difficulties would arise. The lecturer would require free and constant access to the collections proposed for illustration; he might, and probably would, demand the most rare and valuable specimens for exhibition to his audience; the officer of the department, therefore, must be in constant attendance on the lecturer, or by handing over the collections in hs charge to a stranger, would be absolved from responsibility as regards them. The loss of time and annoyance to the officer under the first alternative need hardly be pointed out, much less the impropriety and danger under the second. The employment of diagrams, it may be urged, would obviate the second objection ; it would, however, by no means obviate the first. Besides, if diagrams be sufficient for illustration, then the collections of the Museum may be explained and referred to by this means elsewhere, and the expense of erecting a theatre on the already restricted space in connexion with the Museum, and the various inconveniences to which Your Committee have referred, may be avoided. 10 August 1860. [ xv ]: PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE. Lunce, 14° die Maii, 1860. MEMBEES PEESENT: Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Walpole. Mr. Tite. Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Gregory. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Knight. Sir George Grey. | Mr. Hardy. Mr. Gregory called to the Chair. Committee deliberated as. to course of proceeding. [Adjourned sine die. Martis, 5° die Junit, 1860. MEMBEES PEESENT : Mr. Gbegqey in- the Chair. Sir P. Egerton. Sir George Grey. Mr. Walpole. Lord Stanley. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Antonio Panizzi, examined. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Puller. [Adjourned to Friday, at One o'clock. Veneris, 8° die Junii, 1860. MEMBERS PEESENT : Mr. Geegoet in the Chair. Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Walpole. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Puller. Lord Stanley. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Antonio Panizzi, further examined. Sir George Grey. Mr. Tite. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Knight. [Adjourned to Tuesday, at Twelve o'clock. 54°- b 4 XVI PROCEEDINGS OF THE Martis, 12° die Junii, 1860. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. Gregory in the Chair. Sir George Grey. Mr. Puller. Mr. Ayrton. ' Mr. Lowe. Sir Philip Egerton. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Hardy. Resolved, " That the Chairman do move the House for leave for the Committee to adjourn from place to place." Mr. Panizzi, further examined ; Professor R. Owen, examined. [Adjourned to Friday, at Twelve o'clock, to meet at the British Museum. Veneris, 14° die Junii, 1860. members present : Mr. Gregory in the Chair. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Lord Stanley. Mr. Lowe. Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Puller. Mr. Tite. The Committee sat at the British Museum this day. Professor Owen, further examined ; Dr. Gray and Mr. Waterhouse, severally examined. [Adjourned to Tuesday, at Twelve o'clock. Martis, 19" die Junii, I860. members present: Mr. Gregory in the Chair. Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Hardy. Mr. M. Milnes. Mr. Puller. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Tite. Lord Stanley. Mr. Knight. Mr. Nevil Mashelyne, Mr. John Gould, and Professor Thomas Henry Huxley, severally examined. [Adjourned to Friday, at Twelve o'clock. Veneris, 22° die Junii, 1860. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr, Gregory in the Chair. Sir P. Egerton. Lord Stanley. Mr. Lowe. Sir George Grey. Mr. Walpole. Mr. Puller. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Turner. Mr. Tite. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Knight. [Adjourned to Monday, at One o'clock. ' SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BKITISH MUSEUM. xvii Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Puller. Mr. Tite. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Lowe. Luna, 25° die Junii, 1860. MEMBEES PRESENT : Mr. GREGORY in the Chair. Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Knight. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Turner. Mr. Edward Hawkins and Mr. Edmund Oldfield, examined. [Adjourned to Thursday, at Twelve o'clock. Jovis, 28° die Junii, 1860. MEMBEES PRESENT: Mr. Geegoet in the Chair. Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Tite. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Stirling. Sir George Grey. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Knisht. Mr. Edmund Oldfield, further examined ; Mr. William Carpenter, examined. [Adjourned to Monday, at One o'clock. Luna, 2° die Julii, 1860. MEMBEES PRESENT : Mr. Gregoey in the Chair. Mr. Tite. Mr. Walpole. Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Knight. ■ V, M The E-ev. Dr. Grigg Hewlett and Mr. Sidney Smirke, severally examined. [Adjourned to Thursday, at One o'clock. Jovis, 5° die Julii, 1860. MEMBEES PRESENT: Mr. Gregory in the Chair. Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Tite. Lord Stanley. Mr. Turner. Sir George Grey. Mr. Puller. Sir P. Egerton. Professor Richard Owen, further examined; Mr. Austin Henry Layard, ' Sir Charles Eastlahe, and Mr. Albert Way, severally examined. [Adjourned till Twelve o'clock on Monday next. 540. xvm PROCEEDINGS OF THE Lunce, 9° die Julii, 1860. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Gregory in the Chair. Mr. Ayrton. Sir George Grey. Mr. Walpole. Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Puller. Mr. M. Milnes. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Philip L. Sclater, Mr. J. Pennethorne, Mr. Henry Cole, Mr. Richard Westmacott, and Mr. Charles Thomas Newton, severally examined. [Adjourned to Thursday, at One o'clock. Jovis, 12° die Julii, 1860. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Gregory in the Chair. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Tite. Mr. Puller. Mr. Turner. Mr. Hardy. Sir George Grey. Mr. Charles T. Newton, further examined ; Mr. Edgar A. Bowring, Sir Thomas Wyse, and Mr. Benjamin Hayes, severally examined. [Adjourned to Monday, at One o'clock. Lunce, 16° die Julii, 1860. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Gregory in the Chair. Mr. Ayrton. Sir George Grey. Mr. Walpole. Mr. Tite. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Turner. Mr. Puller. Mr. Panizzi, further examined ; Mr. Bigby Wason, examined. [Adjourned to Monday, at One o'clock, Jovis, 26" die Julii, 1860. Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Knight. Mr. Turner. Mr. Tite. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Puller. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Gregory in the Chair. Lord Stanley. Mr. Ayrton. Sir George Grey. Lord Elcho. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Eeport SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BEITISH MUSEUM. xix Draft Report proposed by the Chairman read 1% as follows : — 1. " Your Committee having duly considered the subject submitted to them, are of opinion that their reply to the first branch of the inquiry which relates to the provision of additional space for the collections in the British Museum may be conveniently arranged under four heads : — 2. " I. Whether all the collections in the British Museum should be retained in the present locality, or whether any and which of them should be removed elsewhere ? 3. "II. What amount of space is requisite for the proper accommodation and exhibition of the collections proposed to be retained, and of those likely to accrue within such a period as it is prudent to provide for ? 4. " III. Whether such space can, with due regard to economy, be obtained in con- nexion with the British Museum ? 5. "IV. What structural conditions in the buildings provided are indispensable for the proper arrangement of the collections ? 6. " These heads appear to Your Committee to embrace the main objects of their inquiry; tliey consider it however necessary to advert to a few other incidental points upon which evidence has been taken, and which appear to them to come within the terms of reference. 7. "I. Whether all the collections in the British Museum should be retained in then- present locality, or whether any and which of them should be removed else- where ? 8. " 1. Natural History Collections. The removal of the Natural History Collections has, from the discussions that have taken place both in Parliament and among the Trustees of the Museum, and from the general interest which this question has excited both in ^he scientific world, and among the public at large, primarily engaged the atten- tion of Your Committee. 9. " From the evidence received, Your Committee have arrived at the conclusion that no valid reason has been assigned for the removal of these collections, but that, on the contrary, the strongest arguments have been urged by the most competent authorities for their retention. 10. " The arguments against removal may be summed up as derived, 1st. From the central position of the British Museum. 2d. From the advantages of connexion with the great national library. 3d. From the expense involved in the construction of a new Natural History Museum, and the transfer of the collections to it. 11. " 1st. The witnesses examined have almost unanimously testified to the preference with which the Natural History Collections are viewed by the ordinary and most numerous frequenters of the Museum. This preference is easily accounted for ; the objects exhibited, especially the birds, from their beauty of plumage, are calculated to amuse and attract the spectator. The eye has been accustomed, in many instances, to the living specimens in the Zoological Gardens, and cheap publications and prints have rendered their forms more or less familiar. It is indeed easily intelligible, that while for the appreciation of works of archaeological interest and artistic excellence a special education must be necessary, the works of nature may be studied with interest and instruction by all persons of ordinary intelligence. It appears from evidence, that numbers of the middle classes are in the habit of forming collections in various branches of Natural History, and that many of the working classes employ their holidays in the study of botany or geology, or in the collec- tion of insects obtained in the neighbourhood of London ; that they refer to the British Museum in order to ascertain the proper classification of the specimens thus obtained, and that want of leisure alone restrains the further increase of this class of visitors. 12. " Your Committee, in order to confirm their view of the popularity of the Natural History Collections, beg to refer to a return from the Principal Librarian, which shows the number of visitors in the several public portions of the Museum, at the same hour of the day, during 15 days. From this it appears that 2,557 persons were in the Department of Antiquities at the given hour, and 1,056 in the King's Library and MSS. Rooms; while 3,378 were in the Natural History Galleries ; showing an excess of 220 per cent, in the Natural History Department over the King's Library and MSS. Rooms, and of 33 per cent, over the Galleries of Antiquities, notwithstanding that the latter are of considerably greater extent than the Galleries of Natural History. 13. " The evidence received by Your Committee induces the belief that the removal of these most popular collections from their present central position would excite much dis- satisfaction, not merely among a large portion of the inhabitants of the metropolis, but among the numerous inhabitants of the country, who from time to time visit London by excursion trains, and to whom the proximity of the British Museum to most of the railway termini, as compared with the distance of the localities to which it has been proposed to transport such collections, is of great practical importance. Similar evidence shows that 54°- c 2 the xx PROCEEDINGS OF THE the proposed separation of these collections from the British Museum has excited grave and almost universal disapprobation in the scientific world. Your Committee, on this subject cannot here employ more forcible language than that made use of in a memorial, signed by 114 persons, many of them the most eminent promoters and cultivators of science in Eng- land, and presented to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1848. The following are their words : — l We beg to add the expression of our opinion that the removal of the Natural History Collections from the site where they have been established for upwards of a century, in the centre of London, particularly if to any situation distant from that centre, would be viewed by the mass of the inhabitants with extreme disfavour, it being a well-known fact, that by far the greater number of visitors to the Museum consists of those who frequent the halls containing the Natural History Collections, while it is obvious that many of those persons who come from the densely peopled districts of the eastern, northern., and southern parts of London, would feel it very inconvenient to resort to any distant locality.' 14. " 2dly. The advantages of connexion with the great national library. " The attention of Your Committee has been directed to the assistance which the student of Natural History derives from the magnificent library close at hand, affording him the advantage of finding every possible literary illustration of his subject in immediate con- nexion with the objects of his study. Should the Natural History Collections be removed, the purchase of a special departmental library for reference would become indispensable ; yet such library, from its limited scope, could not contain many works, which, though less strictly technical, might nevertheless, from time to time, be needful to his researches. Under the next head Your Committee will refer to the expense which the purchase and maintenance of a complete departmental library would entail upon the country. 15. " 3dly. The expense involved in the construction of a new Natural History Museum, and the transfer of the collections to it. ." The Committee beg to call attention to Parliamentary Paper 87, presented to the House of Commons, February 15, 1860. At page 10 it will be seen, that on the 21st December 1859, at a meeting of a special committee of the Trustees of the British Museum, the Principal Librarian was instructed to embody, in a Report, the results of the various inquiries and calculations that had been made on the subject of the comparative expense of providing ground in conjunction with the British Museum or at Kensington, and of raising the necessary buildings on either site. " This Report was taken into consideration at a special general meeting of the Trustees, 21st January 1860, when, after the reading of the Report, it was moved by the First Lord of the Admiralty: — " ' That it is expedient that the Natural History Collections be removed from the British Museum, inasmuch as such an arrangement would be attended with considerably less expense than would be incurred by providing a sufficient additional space in immediate contiguity with the present buildings of the British Museum.' This motion was carried by a majority of 9 to 8. " After fully investigating the grounds on which this resolution purports to be founded, Your Committee feel bound to express their dissent from the conclusion, that expense would be saved by the removal of the Natural History Collections instead of providing Letter from S. A. H. them with due accommodation in connexion with the British Musum. That conclusion to Principal Libra- appears to have been based upon the estimate furnished to the Trustees by the Superin- Tian, 2 December tendent of Natural History, that for the due exhibition of the present collections in his department, and of the accessions likely to arise within thirty years to come, a building of one storey, covering more than 10 acres of ground, or of two storeys covering five acres, would be requisite. " Your Committee will take the opportunity of referring more fully under the second head of their inquiry into the propriety of this demand. At present they will take for granted the expediency of the purchase of the 5 1 acres of land mentioned in the Report of the Special Committee, and of constructing the necessary buildings upon that land. The comparative expensive of purchasing and building at Kensington, or in connexion with the British Museum, is thus summed up in the Report referred to : — 5 J Acres. £. " Price of 5 1 acres at Kensington - Of 5 § acres surrounding the British Museum - 240,000 Building on either site - 567,000 £. 27,500 567,000 807,000 594,500 Saving on the Kensington site - - £. 212,500. " Your Committee will first of all remark that this estimate for the land at Kensington appears to have been made without any authority from the Royal Commissioners for the Exhibition of 1851. Their Secretary has given evidence that the marketable value of the land in question is understated at 20,000/. per acre, but that the quantity required for a Museum SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. xxi Museum of Natural History would be disposed of at the rate of 1 0,000 /. per acre for 5 | acres, and the remaining quarter of an acre at the rate of 5,000/. ; thus raising the total price to 53,750 1. " A deduction of 26,2507. has, therefore, at once to be made from the supposed saving on the Kensington site. Other deductions ought in fairness to be made, which the Report omits to notice. 16. " The formation of a Special Natural History Library cannot, according to the evi- dence taken by Xour Committee, cost at the lowest estimate less than 30,000/., even at the present time ; whilst the daily increase in the literature of natural history will necessitate further expenditure from time to time on works which frequently contain cosily illustra- tions. The nation will have thus to incur the expense of two libraries, and to sup- port two librarians and a double establishment of attendants for the charge of the same works. 17. " Your Committee must also call attention to the heavy annual expense which the additional working staff necessary for the new building will entail ; to the cost of the trans- ference, requiring so much care and preparation, of immense collections to a distant locality, and to the outlay on the fittings necessary in the new buildings, none of which have been estimated in the Report of the Special Committee. 18. " Lastly, it is to be observed, that as the Natural History collections now occupy 61,155 superficial feet in the British Museum, which, if equally divided between an upper floor and a lower, would require building ground considerably exceeding 30,000 feet, and probably at least three-quarters of an acre, that amount should have been added to the 5 £ acres to be provided at Kensington, before the total cost of the two sites in question could be correctly compared. This would have raised the amount required at Kensington to 6 \ acres, and involved an addition of about 7,500 /. to the cost of ground. Or, if on the other hand, it was intended that 5| acres would suffice for the entire collection, then the value of the ground which furnishes the present space in the Museum, amounting to upwards of 30,000 /., should be deducted from the total cost of providing for natural history on its present site. But, further, the buildings necessary to provide 61,155 feet at Kensington, in Heu of that abandoned in Bloomsbury, would, upon the calculation adopted throughout, have cost 122,310 /., which it in no way appears, either from the Report of the Trustees, or the evidence now taken, would have been repaid to the country in any profitable use of the apartments vacated at the British Museum. " For it is clear, from the evidence we have received, that the removal of the Natural History collections would in no respect provide adequate space for the claim of the depart- ment of Antiquities ; nor would the galleries on the upper floor be a fit depository for marble sculpture. 19. " It has indeed been suggested by the Principal Librarian, that the MSS. and books now occupying rooms 56, 58 (plan 17, Parliamentary Paper, 379, 1st July 1858) might be transferred to the upper floor, and those rooms employed for the exhibition of sculptures. Before pronouncing an opinion upon a suggestion involving so serious a change in the dis- position of the MSS., Your Committee would have deemed it necessary to ascertain the opinion of the Keeper of that department. They have, however, refrained from entering on this inquiry, as they were fully convinced that the two rooms in question were, both from their defective lighting, and severance from the remainder of the sculptural series, unsuited to that method of arrangement so strongly insisted on by all the witnesses examined on this point. 20. " If all these deductions could be accurately made, and reduced to figures, the alleged saving of 212,500 I. on the Kensington site would, in the opinion of Your Committee, be converted into a large increase of expense. 21. " For all the reasons above mentioned, Your Committee attach the greatest importance to the retention of the Natural History Collections iu connexion with the British Museum. 22. "Pictures. — Your Committee have received evidence that a large number of portraits, all of them of eminent personages, are now occupying space in the ornithological galleries. Your Committee recommend that these pictures be removed from their present incongruous position; that a selection of such portraits as may be suitable be lent to the National Portrait Gallery, and the remainder to such national and local museums as may be willing and able to give guarantees for their preservation and proper exhibition. 23. " Drawings and Prints. — With regard to the drawings and prints in the British Museum, your Committee are of opinion, that inasmuch as the National Gallery of Pictures is already overcrowded, it would be impossible to transfer to it any portion of these objects. Should, however, a National Galley at any future period be constructed of sufficient dimen- sions to contain both the pictures and drawings belonging to the nation, Your Committee would recommend that the drawings in the British Museum be transferred to that establish- ment. There seems from the evidence to be a general consent, that the drawings of great masters should be under the same roof, and in contiguity with their pictures.^ This is the plan pursued in the chief continental museums, and it is obviously of great assistance to the student in comparing the first designs of great masters with their subsequently finished works. 540. c 3 24. " Your xxii PROCEEDINGS OF THE 24. " Your Committee, however, consider that the prints stand in a different position, and they do not propose their removal. Although many of these prints are unquestionably works of the highest art, and as such of importance to the art student, still the motive which prompted the collection of prints in the British Museum may be considered as not entirely nor even mainly artistic. The archasologist visits the earlier examples of engraving and connects them with the work of the goldsmith, and with the art of printing ; he traces the progress of engraving upon wood, and upon copper, from its inception to its development ; while the historian connects such works with the annals of the country wherein they were created, with the feeling that produced them, with cities, buildings, and costumes, which they illustrate, and which are now no more. " For these reasons, feeling that the drawings are more immediately connected with the artistic motive of the National Gallery of Painting, and the prints with the archaeological motive of the British Museum, Your Committee consider it right to draw a line between them. 25. Ethnography. — Your Committee have received evidence from every witness examined on this subject in favour of the removal of these collections. Great additional space would be required for them, if it be intended that the British Museum should become the deposi- tory of a national ethnographical collection ; but such space cannot be obtained in the vicinity of the Museum, except by trenching on other collections more in harmony with its objects, or by an expense which Your Committee cannot imagine would receive the sanction of Parliament. For these reasons, even thoBe who attach the greatest importance to this collection are advocates of its removal. It has been stated that, in case a now contemplated museum should be established in East London, these arms, implements, dresses, and gods of tribes rarely visited and little known, would be gladly received by and be particularly appropriate to a museum in a district resorted to by seafaring men. It has been considered that such a collection would be viewed with special interest and profit by this portion of the community, and that many and valuable accessions would be made to it, if once exhibited in a locality affording ready access to the class alluded to. "Your Committee may also remark, that while the north of London has its Zoological Gardens, and the west its Kensington Museum, East London, on the removal of the East India Company's Museum, will have no place of resort for rational amusement and instruc- • tion east of Temple Bar. The desire for some such establishment by the dense population in the eastern districts of this city is evinced by the fact, that within 10 months 200,000 persons visited the East India Museum, and by the evidence given to Your Committee, that if a site in Victoria Park can be obtained on liberal terms from the Government, funds will be at once forthcoming by public subscription for the erection of a museum. 26. "5. British and Medicsval Collections. — The evidence received upon the subject of the retention or the removal of these collections has been most conflicting, both proposals having received the approbation of high authority. By the advocates of retention it is alleged that these antiquities are so intimately connected with those of the earlier and classical periods, that they form links of one great chain which it would be most prejudical to scientific investigation to disconnect ; that many of them are the sole evidence that we possess of pre-historic times; that their combination with a museum of comparatively modern art would be incongruous and injurious to both collections, and that it would be impossible to lay down any principle of separation by which these collections could be properly divided from those of an earlier period. " These collections may be ranged under two heads, British and Mediaeval. " The former may be divided into four sections : " 1st. Pre-historic. — Consisting of the remains of the early inhabitants of these islands of whose history we possess no written records, comprising a series commencing with round stone implements, and terminating with bronze castings of fine workmanship, occasionally enamelled, supposed to be contemporary with the conquest of Britain by Csesar. " 2d. Roman. — The relics of the Roman occupation of Britain. " 3d. Saxon. — The antiquities of the Teutonic settlers in Britain, commencino- about .the fourth centry, a.d., and terminating at the Norman Conquest. The larger "portion of this collection consists of remains found in cemeteries generally looked upon as Pagan. " 4th. English Medicsval. — Consisting of antiquities of various kinds, including sculptures ecclesiastical furniture and memorials, pilgrims' signs, seals, pottery, personal ornaments' weapons, &c. &c, illustrating the manners and customs, the tastes, and habits of thought of our forefathers subsequent to the Norman Conquest. " It is contended that the British Musem is pre-eminently fitted to be the deposi- tory of these objects found in the British islands, and illustrating their history ; that English archaeologists would deeply regret to see any severance of these sections from one another based on an arbitrary principle ; that a national collection of antiquities is to the antiquary what a collection of fossils is to the geologist ; the former is enabled by means of it to ascertain the age of the tomb, the building, or the mound in which the relic in question has been discovered, as the latter determines the age of the stratum in which his fossil has been found. _ It would therefore be as unsatisfactory to the antiquary to see separated objects differing from each other only in time, as it would be to the geologist to see the fossils SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BKITISH MUSEUM. xxiii fossils of the tertiary stratum removed to a different building from those of the secondary or earlier period. " In regard to the other mediseval collections, they consist of antiquities illustrating events of history, the progress of art, or the manners and customs and mental culture of various nations. _ They bear the same relation to the medieval period as the classical remains do to antiquity. The advocates for retention, both in this case and the former, allege the necessity of connexion with the national library, containing so many rare and valuable works of heraldry and topography necessary for the prosecution of this parti- cular study. " In the latter case, they allege the connexion between the prints and the other works of the same artists, the assistance afforded by mediaeval MSS. as the best illustrations of mediaeval^ manners and customs, and consequently of mediseval antiquities; they claim the^ early printed books and bindings as in fact antiquities of the mediseval or renaissance period ; theyinsist on the necessity of having mediaeval antiquities in connexion with con- temporary coins, which all witnesses propose to retain in the British Museum, and which furnish a mass of dated information to the student ; and they challenge their opponents to separate with any certainty of accuracy the gems, bronzes, and other works of the cinque cento period, from those of a classical epoch. 27. " The advocates of separation admit that the removal of any portion of the collections involves a disconnexion in the chain of archaeology, but they contend that, unless a building as vast as the Louvre be constructed to contain the art and antiquities of all times under one roof, a line must be drawn somewhere ; that this line can be drawn with least inconvenience at the epoch of Constantine the Great, which marks the final suppression of Paganism as a state religion ; and that from this period the old Pagan motive in art dis- appeared more and more rapidly, and new ideas springing out of Christianity, and from the ascendancy of barbaric invaders, assume a more distinct and tangible form, they advocate one museum for all Christian art. They lay down the broad principle of separation from the remains of antiquity, wherever a Christian emblem or motive can be discerned, and they thus propose to exhibit how, after the classical spirit had died out, new art sprung into life, called into existence by the vivifying power of a new religion. "As regards the objects discovered in this country, they would place all Eno-lish, as distinguished from British antiquities, under the division of Christian art, while the British and Anglo-Boman antiquities would be retained in the British Museum as a portion of Pagan art. They contend that British antiquities cannot be isolated, and viewed solely with a feeling of national sentiment, but should be looked upon as a portion of the history of the Pagan world so comprehensively illustrated in the British Museum ; that the line of separation, in spite of a certain amount of casuistry which may always be employed in raising objections, may very readily be established ; that a well selected library, gradually formed, would be sufficient for the ordinary uses of a museum of Christian art ; that the expense of two museums, differing in theory as to purpose, yet practically collecting the same class of specimens, sueh as enamels, glass, pottery, &c, must be disapproved of by Parliament and the nation ; that a strong feeling will be raised in the public mind in con- sequence of this double expenditure ; that instead of having one fine collection of Christian art, embracing archaeological as well as artistic motives, both collections will be weakened ; and that a collection of objects, chosen from archaeological motives, when combined with a collection chosen for artistic and educational purposes, would form a harmonious and instruc- tive whole. 28. " Having considered the arguments on both sides of this question, Your Com- mittee would observe, that the proposal to form one museum of Christian art appears to them conducive to the interests of science and art, and to be desirable on economic grounds. On the other hand, they cannot shut their eyes to the fact that a strong feeling exists in this country in favour of the British Museum as the most worthy place of deposit of the relics of English History ; they would, therefore, recommend that the antiquities found within the British Islands be retained in the British Museum, but that the remaining mediaeval collections should be transferred to whatever site Parliament may select as a depository for the other national collections of a similar character. Your Committee therefore, sum up this first head of their inquiry as follows : by recommending the removal from the British Museum of the Pictures, Drawings, Ethnographical and Foreign Mediaeval Collections, and the retention of all the remaining Archaeological Collections) and all those of Natural History. 29. " II. What amount of space is requisite for the proper accommodation and exhibition of the collections proposed to be retained, and of those likely to accrue within such a period as it is prudent to provide for ? " 1st. As regards the collections of Natural History, on the assumption that they are to be retained r " The amount of space required for this department of the British Museum depends entirely on the principle of arrangement adopted. If it be ever decided that every specimen should not only be accessible to the public, but should be publicly exhibited, the amount of space required is practically illimitable, and no demand for ground, or for expenditure in building, can be considered unreasonable. 540. c 4 " Nothing xxiv PROCEEDINGS OF THE " Nothing but the strongest proof of advantage to the public, or to the interests of science, could justify Your Committee in recommending a system which would involve an immense and indefinite expense. Not only, however, is such proof wanting, but the scientific naturalists who have been examined have almost unanimously protested against , indiscriminate exhibition as, on the one hand, useless and bewildering to the public, and, on the other, an impediment to the labours of science. On the contrary, all admit the utility and the convenience of the method of typical arrangement ; and, with one exception, all recommend its adoption. This method, recognising the universally admitted fact, that the majority of the specimens in every zoological and paleontological collection which ap- proaches completeness, are useful, and indeed intelligible, only to the skilled naturalist, requires the separation of such a collection into two portions ; the one, consisting of spe- cimens illustrative of the leading points both of popular and of scientific interest, connected with the class to which they belong, and the other of specimens which have an exclusively scientific value. The former collection is to be displayed with all the art of the taxidermist, so as to arrest the attention and awaken the interest of the casual visitor ; while the latter, stored in a comparatively small compass, >and with little expense, in drawers and cases, is to be at all times conveniently accessible to the student. " It is right here to refer to the deterioration which constant exposure to light effects in specimens of the animal kingdom. It has been stated by experienced naturalists, that in very many instances mammalia, birds, shell?, and insects, after a short period of expo- sure, have been so deprived of colour as to be useless entirely for scientific or popular exhi- bition. Your Committee, in consequence, would point out the alternative which must result from undue exhibition ; either that a vast number of faded specimens would be dis- played giving incorrect ideas, or that constant and heavy demands would be made on the public purse for the purchase and replacement of rare and valuable objects thus needlessly destroyed. " The demands of the keepers of the different departments of natural history, who are unanimously in favour of a liberal, but at the same time limited exhibition, may now be briefly stated. " 1. Zoology. 30. " Your Committee have received evidence from the keeper of this department, that with the addition of a room for the exhibition of osteology, and the construction of galleries over the wall cases in the Ornithological Room, not for display but for storage, there would be sufficient space to satisfy all his present requirements. " Your Committee are, however, of opinion, that in any re-arrangement of the Natural History Department, a proper gallery for the exhibition of mammalia should be provided, and the ill-lighted and inconvenient room in which a large portion of this col- lection is now placed should be so altered as to become available for the display of other and smaller branches of natural history. " As to the likelihood of a great and immediate increase in this section of natural history, it is difficult to arrive at any certain conclusion. Judging, however, from the faet that so large a portion of the world has now been subjected to the researches of science, it is reasonable to believe that additions from the few regions hitherto unexplored will come in but slowly. " Geology. 31. " The keeper of the Geological Department estimates the probable demands for the exhibition of his collections for the next 20 years at 9,059 additional superficial feet. " In this estimate he presumes that skylights are to be made in Rooms 28, 30, 31 {see Plan 18, Parliamentary Paper, 1st July 1858, No. 379); that the windows are to be blocked up, which would allow of a considerable increase of wall cases, fitted to hold large fossils ; and that Room 32 in the same plan, now partially devoted to studies, should be set free and opened to the public. " This portion of the proposal of the Keeper of Geology has already been unani- mously recommended by the sub-committee of Natural History, and approved of by the Standing Committee of Trustees ; but in consequence of changes supposed to be impend- ing, and involving the removal of the Natural History Collections, the sanction of the Treasury has been refused to these alterations. " Mineralogy. 32. " The Keeper of Mineralogy makes no demand for space at present for purposes of exhibition ; he, however, contemplates accessions, but is of opinion that an additional room, of the size of the largest now occupied by him, containing 2,740 superficial feet, would be sufficient for his wants for 20 years. For the officers of the Mineralogical Department it will be necessary to provide studies and working rooms. " In all the Departments of Natural History, studies for the use of visitors desirous of consulting the collections should be provided. Upon this point there has been unanimity of opinion among the witnesses examined. Under any circumstances rooms should be furnished for the student to pursue his researches undisturbed ; but the propriety of this arrangement SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BEiTISH MUSEUM. xxv arrangement being adequately carried out becomes still more imperative from the typical mode of exhibition recommended by Your Committee. " 2. Collections of A ntiquities. 33. ""The amount of space required for buildings adequate to the due accommodation and exhibition of the archasological, and particularly of the sculptural collections, is intimately connected with the question of the structural arrangement of the galleries appropriated to them, a question which it is proposed to investigate in some detail under the Fourth Head of this Report. For the present Your Committee will confine themselves to a general statement of the number of superficial feet of floor space estimated by the keeper of the Department of Antiquities to be necessary for exhibition-rooms, reserving the question of the quantity of ground required to provide such floor space, and the principles of structural arrangement upon which that question in a great measure depends, to a subsequent part of their Report. 34. " Department of Antiquities. — The keeper of this department has put in a demand for 61,469 additional superficial feet of floor space for exhibition. This supposes the relinquish- ment of upwards of 14,000 feet in the basement now necessarily employed, though totally unfit for the exhibition of sculpture ; also an increase of nearly four times the amount of space now occupied by the Ethnographical Collection, in the event of its retention in the Museum, and a considerable increase for the medieval collection. This estimate provides not merely for all the present collections, but also for moderate accessions. Upon this point Your Committee would observe that, whereas the increase in the Department of Natural History is gradual, but constant, the increase in this department is of a different character. Considerable intervals of time elape before any great necessity for additional space arrives. But Sir Charles Fellowes explores Lycia, Sir Henry Rawlinson and Mr. Layard open the mounds of Assyria, Mr: Davis excavates on the ruins of Carthage, and Mr. Newton lays bare the Mausoleum. Each of these discoveries, revealing as they do objects of the highest value to the scientific and artistic world, at once claim a place for their reception. Your Committee therefore, in contemplating an extension of the Museum, have been disposed in the Natural History Department, in consequence of the gradual but constant increase referred to, to allow for space likely to be required within a moderate period of time ; but in the case of the Department of Antiquities, from not being able to form any idea of the character of the accessions that may eventually accrue, and con- sequently of the nature of the galleries and of the light that may be required, Your Com- mittee would suggest that halls should not be constructed with a view to the future, but for the present, and always on such a plan as would admit of easy, cheap, and systematic extension. 35. " III. The third question which has been considered by Your Committee, is the means of obtaining space adjoining the existing buildings of the Museum for the due accom- modation and arrangement of the collections which, in their opinion, it is proper to retain in the present locality. " It appears from the Report of the Special Committee of Trustees, to which reference has already been made, that the ground immediately surrounding the Museum, within the adjacent streets on the east, west, and north sides, comprises altogether about 5 1 acres ; and that, if the value of that ground, with the houses upon it, be estimated at 30 years' purchase, the whole would be worth about 240,000?. As the proprietary interest in all this ground belongs to a single owner, who is believed to be willing to dispose of it for a national object on reasonable terms, Your Committee are of opinion that it would be a con- venient, and probably even a profitable, arrangement for the- State at once to purchase that interest, and to receive the rents of the lessees in return for the capital invested. The State would then have the power, whenever any further extension of the Museum became necessary, to obtain possession of such of the houses as might best suit the purpose in view, by simply buying out the lessees with proper compensation. 36. " Independently, however, of this larger suggestion, Your Committee are fully con- vinced, both from the uniform purport of the papers printed at different times by the House of Commons, and from the statements of the various witnesses whom they have now examined, that it is indispensable, not merely to the appropriate exhibition of our unequalled national collections, but even to the avoidance of greater ultimate expense, through altera- tions and re-arrangements, that a portion of the ground referred to should, without delay, be absolutely purchased, and buildings thereon erected upon a comprehensive, and, there- fore, probably a permanent scheme. In determining the portion of ground most suitable for this purpose, Your Committee would be guided partly by the greater or less cost of purchase in different directions, but chiefly by the consideration of what department it is intended primarily to provide for. Now, any ground to the west of the Museum is likely to be somewhat cheaper than the same quantity to the east or north, from the inferior character of the houses in Charlotte-street to those in Montague-street or Montague-place ; but a stronger reason for at present preferring the west side arises from the relative position of the existing Galleries of Antiquities and Natural History. According to the evidence taken in the present inquiry, if it be ever resolved to exhibit to the public only a typical or other selection from the various objects in the Department of Natural History, the amount of additional space required for that department will be much less than is required 540. d for XX vi PROCEEDINGS OF THE for the Department of Antiquities, and might even, by the adoption of a plan which will presently be further noticed, be wholly or chiefly provided within the limits of the present building. It thence results that the collections for which new buildings are now primarily needed are those of antiquities, particularly of sculpture. For these collections the ground to the west possesses the following exclusive recommendations : — "■ 1. That being contiguous to the existing Galleries of Sculpture, it would unite the whole collection in a compai'atively compact compass. " 2. That its configuration would admit of the new galleries all running parallel to the present, so that the whole might be formed into one consistent system. " 3. That the selection of it would obviate the inconvenience of passing across the Library in visiting different parts of the sculptural series. " 4. That from the present Elgin and Lycian Galleries having no side windows, new galleries on the same level might be brought close to them, without obstructing any light except that of unimportant rooms in the basement, and thus the selection of this side would be equivalent to a considerable gain in space. " For the foregoing reasons, Tour Committee are of opinion that the ground best adapted for present acquisition is a portion lying to the west. That site is, generally, about 150 feet in breadth, except at the southern extremity, where it is diminished to about 1 10, the difference being represented by a portion already in possession of the Museum. It appears from the evidence that, for the construction of adequate sculpture galleries, detached at each end from the neighbouring houses, a length is required of about 450 feet. The entire area, therefore, necessary for this use would be 450 x 150 = 67,500 square feet, or slightly above an acre and a half. Deducting, however, the portion which the Museum already possesses, and which is available for building, the amount remaining for purchase would be somewhat less than an acre and a half. Now, the average value of the ground immediately surrounding the Museum being, as appears from the Parliamentary Papers, No. 379 of 1858, and No. 87 of 1860, about 43,000 /. per acre, a plot slightly less than an acre and a half would appear generally to be worth about 64,000 1. Considering, however, the less than average value of the houses in Charlotte-street, the plot of ground in question would, doubtless, be worth less than this. Your Committee would accordingly recommend the immediate purchase of houses and gardens in Charlotte-street, and the adjoining or south-east angle of Bedford-square, extending altogether to a frontage of about 450 feet. 37. " IV. Upon the fourth question, that of the structural conditions proper for any new buildings. Your Committee submit the following propositions, as the general result of the evidence they have taken for the arrangement of the collections : " 1. That the object desired being increase of accommodation rather than architectural display, the buildings should throughout be regarded as subordinate to their contents, and the apartments carefully varied in form, dimension, and method of lighting, to suit the different collections for which they are respectively designed. "2. That, in order to avoid all risk of collision, either in the structural requirements or administrative arrangements of different departments, it is highly expedient that any new buildings erected for one department should be kept distinct from all others. " 3. That in the case of the Department of Antiquities, it being impossible ' to foresee the rate at which the collections may hereafter increase, the wisest provision for the future is to build, as far as possible, on a system admitting of subsequent extension in any of its parts, without disturbing other parts. " 4. That the system best foT this purpose is that of contiguous parallel galleries, any of which may hereafter be prolonged, when necessary, separately from the others, and that the same system is also best adapted for scientific classification, economy of space, and the convenience of visitors. " 5. That the entire collection of ancient sculpture should be exhibited on the ground- floor. " 6. That the galleries for sculpture should be so constructed as to admit of arranging the whole series in chronological order, from the earliest to the latest. " 7. That skylights are essential to the proper exhibition of such exterior sculptural groups and friezes as form the chief feature of the collections in the British Museum and are preferable even for most other sculptures in such a situation as the centre of London. " 8.^ That in any new buildings a room should be provided for publicly exhibiting a collection of coins and medals. " 9. That in the Department of Natural History a sufficient portion of the exhibition rooms should be adapted for the erection of galleries over the wall cases, to contain speci- mens not exhibited, and for the introduction of detached glass cases in the middle of the rooms. " 10. That in the same department studies, such as those already referred to under the second head, should be provided for the private use of scientific visitors. "As SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. XXVU 38. " As a concluding but very important part of the inquiry into the extent and cha- racter of accommodation now required for the collections, Your Committee think it their duty to mention the plans which have been brought under their consideration, both for the purchase of ground and the erection of buildings adjoining the Museum. "■ U The plan of Mr. Smirke, the architect to the Museum, which, in its amended form, is briefly described in his letter to Mr. Panizzi of the 3d December 1857, and was recommended to the consideration of Her Majesty's Government by a resolution of the Trustees on the 22d February 1858. " 2. That submitted to Your Committee by Professor Maskelyne, keeper of the Mineralogical Collections in the Museum, as a provision both for his own department and that of Geology. " 3. That of Mr. Oldfield, who is employed iu the Archaeological Department of the Museum ; a plan intended to provide immediately for the Department of Antiquities, and indirectly for the several departments of Natural History. 39. " The first of these plans contemplated the purchase of the entire block of houses on the south side of Montague-place, and the erection on that site of galleries similar in con- struction to the bulk of the present building, which are estimated by Mr. Smirke to cost about 164,0007., exclusive of the price of the ground, and to provide about 81,000 square feet of floor space, on two floors, the upper intended for Natural History, the lower for Antiquities. This plan, which was ordered by the House of Commons to be printed on the 1st July 1858 (Parliamentary Paper, 379), has not been recently recommended by the Trustees ; nor has it been sufficiently maintained before Your Committee by Mr. Smirke himself, to require them to pronounce how far it is compatible with what they have sug- gested under the last head, as the best principles of structural arrangement for such a building as the Museum. " Professor Maskelyne's plan, printed in the Appendix to this Report, has for its object to carry out the principle advocated by almost every witness of separating the col- lections in the British Museum from each other. For this purpose he lays down a scheme for the gradual occupation of the block of ground surrounding the Museum, and devotes the west to the Antiquities, the north and a portion of the east to Natural History, and the remaining portion of the ground towards the south-east to such other departments as may require eventual expansion. " Mr. Oldfield's plan, also printed in the Appendix, suggests, 1st. The purchase of the 17 houses in Charlotte-street, numbered 4 — 20, and the three contiguous houses num- bered 1 — 3, in Bedford-square, with the respective gardens (being such a plot of ground as has been recommended for purchase by Your Committee under the third head of this Report) ; 2d. The erection thereupon of new buildings exclusively for the Department of Antiquities ; 3d. The transfer of the galleries now occupied by that department on the upper floor to the Departments of Natural History. The new buildings in this plan would contain about 51,000 square feet of floor space on the principal or ground floor for the exhibition of sculptures, and nearly 21,000 square feet in two upper storeys, for smaller antiquities, besides about 8,500 square feet of space required for other purposes than exhibition. The plan also proposes some alterations in some of the existing galleries, to increase or improve their accommodation, partly for the Archaeological, and partly for the Scientific Departments. The amount of space which, upon this scheme, might be trans- ferred to Natural History, or obtained for it by modifications of the existing building, would be upwards of 25,000 square feet, and includes two additional ^private rooms for scientific students, and four studies for officers or assistants. It is further suggested by Mr. Oldfield, though not as an essential condition of his plan, that the mezzanine floor over the Secre- tary's office might be transferred to the apartments immediately above, if occupied by the Department of Natural History ; an arrangement which would increase the total space obtained for that department to about 27,000 square feet, and would provide four additional rooms, instead of two, for the private use of scientific students. " The expense of the proposed buildings has been calculated by Mr. Oldfield mainly from the data furnished in connexion with the plan of Mr. Smirke ; and is approxi- mately stated at 161,000 I. for additional buildings, with a further sum for alteration of the present buildings, for which no exact data of calculation exist, but which is conjecturally placed at about 10,000 /. Your Committee, whilst avoiding to rely on this calculation with the confidence due to professional estimates, have no reason to doubt its general fairness or accuracy. It is a peculiarity of Mr. Oldfield's plan, that the structure of the several new galleries for Antiquities, and the general arrangement of their principal contents, form together one integral scheme. Whilst recognising the undoubted value of this principle in any design for a museum, Your Committee have thought it unnecessary to decide on the various details which it has caused to be comprehended in the plan, and which, if the occasion should be held to require it, might be better investigated by more competent authorities. They think it right, however, to state their opinion that Mr. Oldfield's plan, when tried by the principles of structural arrangement of which they have already expressed their approval, appears free from objection ; and, so far as the two important departments of Antiquities and Zoology "are concerned, seems to furnish a provision adequate in itself, and consistent with the general convenience of the Museum. In the event, therefore, of - 4 , 0t d 2 Parliament xxvili PROCEEDINGS OF THE Parliament resolving to authorise new buildings on a comprehensive system of arrange- ment, Your Committee think that a plan founded on this basis would deserve the serious and minute consideration of those whose duty it might be to decide on the method of construction. " The Departments of Mineralogy and Palaeontology, however, appear to require an immediate accommodation, not provided in Mr. Oldfield's plan. By adopting in part the suggestion of Professor Maskelyne, Your Committee think that the wants of those depart- ments may be supplied, whilst provision may at the same time be made for another depart- ment, much needing increased space. They would therefore recommend the purchase of the three houses numbered 14 — 16, in Montague-place, adjoining the private entrance to the north side of the Museum, and the erection of a building in continuation of the present east wing. The upper floor of this building would furnish apartments for Mineralogy, con- taining about 170 x 42 = 7,140 square feet, which might, if necessary, be further increased by widening the northern extremity, in a manner similar to that proposed by Mr. Smirke in his own designs. ( Vide Plans 20, 21, in No. 379). Such a provision for Mineralogy would, by an easy rearrangement of pnrt of the present northern galleries, transfer adequate space to the Geological Department. The lower floor of the suggested building would furnish, in its southern portion, a public gallery for the exhibition of prints, well lighted from both east and west ; and beyond this, to the north, private apartments, lighted partly from the east, and partly from the north, for the use of the Print Department, in lieu of its present rooms, which might then be employed as studies, either for the Natural History or Archaeological Department, as found most convenient. " Supposing that this addition for the Departments of Mineralogy and of Prints were combined with Mr. Oldfield's plan for the Departments of Antiquities and of Zoology, the probable aggregate expense might be roughly estimated as follows : — " Ground to the west (outside estimate) - New buildings on ditto -------- Alterations in existing buildings (conjectural estimate) Ground and buildings for mineralogy and prints (out-side esti- mate) ----------- Total - - - £. £. 64,000 161,000 10,000 40,000 275,000 A further sum would hereafter require to be added, in the opinion of Your Committee, for the substitution of skylights for side windows in the geological apartments, and for the construction of galleries over the wall cases both in these and in a considerable portion of the. zoological rooms; but the extent, and consequent expense, of such alterations and fit- tings could not be properly estimated until the appropriation of the entire space proposed to be provided for Natural History had been considered in detail. Taking, therefore, this item into recollection, and duly sensible of the tendency of all public works to exceed the expense previously estimated for them, Your Committee think it most prudent to assume that the total cost of the proposed combined plans would amount roughly to 300,000 1. 40. " On the other hand, Your Committee submit a brief summary of the expenses which, according to the evidence now taken, would probably result from the removal of Natural History upon the plan considered in the Report of the Special Committee of Trustees, which was founded on the assumption of tne necessity of exhibiting to the public the entire collections in that department : — " Cost of 5 1 acres at Kensington Cost of building on ditto - Cost of Departmental Library - Total £. 53,750 567,000 30,000 650,750 41. " To this sum would have to be added the expense of packing and removing the col' lections, and of the extensive fittings and cases required in the new Museum — expenses all forming part of the first cost of this plan, and independent of the additional annual charge for augmentations of the Departmental Library, and for the maintenance of the requisite staff" both for that library, and for the greatly enlarged public galleries of exhibition. 42. " That it results from this comparison, that the first cost of a new Museum of Natural History at Kensington, on the principle of unlimited exhibition, taken exclusively of the large necessary expenses of packing, removal, and new fittings, would alone amount to more than double the expense of providing not merely adequate buildings for natural history in Bloomsbury, on the principle of typical exhibition, but adequate buildings for prints and for all the archaeological collections (except the small portions of which Your Committee have recommended the removal) estimated for as long a period as the keepers of the several departments SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. xxix departments in question respectively desire to provide for. When, therefore, to this immense superiority of the latter plan on purely economical grounds, are added the special recommendations of centrality of position for the convenience of the public, and of limited exhibition for the interests of science, both involved in the retention of natural history in the British Museum, Your Committee cannot for an instant hesitate in their choice between the two proposals for providing the requisite accommodation for the national collections. " In considering the last branch of the reference, to inquire into the means by which the collections in the British Museum may be made most available to the interests of science and art, Your Committee have not deemed it necessary or expedient to offer any opinion on the constitution of the Board of Trustees, or the governmental machinery of the Museum. The only questions connected with its administration, which appear distinctly to fall within the province of the present inquiry, are such as relate to the action of the Board in con- nexion with the custody, augmentation, and scientific arrangement of the various collections. The following recommendations of Your Committee are therefore limited to this head : " That a small sum should be annually applied towards sending abroad any officers of the Museum approved by the Trustees, for the purpose of making reports on two principal heads ; first, the scientific and archaeological collections in foreign museums, and their method of arrangement and exhibition, with any suggestions that might be derived therefrom for the improvement of the British Museum ; secondly, any objects of scientific or archaeological importance in private possession, which might either be, or be likely to become obtainable by purchase, and would be valuable to the Museum. " That lists of the objects described in the last mentioned reports, with estimates of their pecuniary value in the opinion of the officer reporting, should be furnished by the Trustees to the Foreign Office, with a request that the Secretary of State would cause instructions to be issued to our diplomatic or consular agents at or near the places where such objects might be, that they should communicate confidentially, for the information of the Trustees, in case they ever found the means of obtaining any of such objects within the prices named in the lists. " 3. That whenever any question affecting the conservation, arrangement, or augmen- tation of any of the collections, or the construction or alteration of buildings for them is brought in any manner before the Trustees, the keeper of such collection should uniformly be required to attend before the Board. " 4. That every officer making a written report to the Trustees on any of the subjects last referred to, should attend to read such report, and remain present during any discussion thereupon, to give explanations, and to receive in person the decision of the Trustees upon the questions involved. " Lectures. 43. " Your Committee are of opinion that though it would be of the greatest advantage that the meaning of the various collections of the British Museum should be rendered as intelligible as possible to the public, yet it is questionable whether the conversion of that Museum into an educational institution would not be a departure from the principle on which it rests. Your Committee look on the British Museum as primarily being a great consultative repertory. " Special objections, moreover, may be urged to the delivery of lectures within its precincts. " 1st. If these lectures are to be given by an officer of the Museum, are they to be com- pulsory or voluntary ? If compulsory, it is clear that duties are being imposed on gentlemen for which they may be altogether unfit, and for which they were not chosen. If voluntary, Your Committee cannot help apprehending that unpleasant feelings might arise among officers of the institution, whose harmony is so essential to its well-doing. Cases would occur where one gentleman would decline delivering lectures on account of consciousness of inability to command the attention of his audience, another would assume the respon- sibility; and an inferior officer might here assume a predominant position in a department which his real merits in the performance of the essential duties of his office by no means warranted. " It has, however, been proposed, that the delivery of lectures should not be com- pulsory on the present, but on the future officers of the Museum. In this opinion Your Committee cannot concur. It is needless to observe that lectures unless attended would be useless, and would lower the reputation of the Museum, but the qualities calculated to attract an audience are by no means the qualities necessary to constitute a good curator. Patient research, constant attention to details, laboriousonen in the compilations of catalogues, capacity of administration, are essential in the one, an easy delivery and power of popular illustration an essential in the other. Should the principle of lecturing be adopted, Your Committee fear that in future appointments it would be difficult for the Trustees to resist the pressure that would be brought to bear on them, to induce them to select gentlemen for the last named qualities, rather than for the former ; and the practical effect might be, either that you would have inferior curators on account of their lecturing qualifications, or inferior lecturers on account of their qualifications as curators ; the two objects would be brought into collision. 54 o. d 3 " 2d. If xxx PROCEEDINGS OF THE " 2d. If lectures are to be given within the Museum by persona not connected with it but selected for the occasion, much difficulty arises. An extraneous lecturer would require free and constant access to the collections proposed for illustration ; he might, and probably would, demand the most unique specimen for exhibition to his audiences ; the officer of the department would, therefore, be in constant attendance on the lectures, or by handing; over the collections in his charge to a stranger, would be absolved from all responsibility as regards them. The loss of time and annoyance to the custodian under the first alternative need hardly be pointed out, much less the impropriety and danger of the _ second. The employment of diagrams, it may be urged, would obviate the second objection ; it would, nevertheless, apply to the first. If diagrams be sufficient for illustration, Your Committee suggest that the collections of the Museum may be explained and referred to by this means elsewhere, and that the expense of erecting a theatre on the already restricted space in connexion with the Museum, and the inconveniences to which Your Committee have referred, be thereby avoided. " Your Committee cannot close this branch of their inquiry without suggesting, that to give a more general insight of the vast treasures of art and science in the British Museum, catalogues accessible to the visitor should be formed in each department, and that should studies be established in connexion with the natural history, an addition of a few well-educated attendants would be necessary to seek for and take charge of the. specimens required for special observation. 44. " Your Committee would suggest that as the general details of the business of the Museum are supposed to be vested in the sub-committee of the Trustees, it is essential that each department should be adequately represented on the Trust. Of the 15 elected Trustees, only two have been chosen to superintend the interests of science ; of the 50 Trustees, official, family, elected, and appointed by Her Majesty, only three members of the standing committee can be said to have specially directed their attention to scientific pursuits. It is obviauathat where so small a portion of the Trust takes a special interest in the business of a great department, the sub-committee cannot reckon on regular attendance, and its efficiency must in consequence be impaired. As the Natural History Collections occupy a position so large and so important in the British Museum, and as Your Committee have advocated their retention with it, they cannot but express a strong opinion, that where Literature and Art are so worthily represented, the claims of Science should not be disregarded. " Your Committee express the strongest hope that immediate action will follow this Report. They cannot help recalling the attention of Parliament to the discreditable state of our great national Museum ; that patchwork and temporary expedients create needless expense, and aggravate every difficulty ; that public generosity is checked, and bequests and gifts of value are lost to the nation, by the risk of such gifts being stored away instead of receiving befitting exhibition ; and they cannot conclude this inquiry more appropriately than by quoting the words of an eloquent Frenchman, M. de Verneuil, in a letter submitted to them : — " ' The British Museum, as it now stands, is a monument unique in the world, which we envy you the possession of, and the preservation of which conceal at the same time your national glory, and the science which we cultivate. To bring together in a single assemblage the productions of nature, and the chefs-d'oeuvre of art ; to exhibit alongside of what Grod has made that which man can make ; to associate the idea of the beautiful with that of the true, the world of our imagination with the real world, is doubtless a grand and noble con- ception which should not be abandoned, and which at any cost I should wish to see com- pleted.' " Motion made and question, " That the Draft Report proposed by the Chairman be now read 2°, paragraph by paragraph " (Mr. Knight). — Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word " That," to the end of the question, in order to add the words "the consideration of the Report be postponed till to-morrow,"' (Sir George Grey) instead thereof. — Question put, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question." — Committee divided : — Ayes, 6. Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Turner. Mr. Tite. Mr. Knight. Lord Stanley. Mr. Ayrton. Noes, 5. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Puller. Sir G. Grey. Lord Elcho. Mr. M. Milnes. Main Question, put, and agreed to. Paragraph 1, read, amended, and agreed to. Paragraph 2 read and considered.— Motion made and question put, " That this paragraph be now postponed tdl after the next paragraph " (Mr. Ayrton).— Committee divided : Ayes, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. XXXI Ayes, 6. Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Ayrton. Sir Gr. Grey. Lord Elcho. Mr. M. Milnes. Noes, 5. Mr. Turner. Mr. Tite. Mr. Knight. Mr. Puller. Lord Stanley. Paragraph 3 read, and considered. — Motion made, and question proposed, " That paragraph be now postponed" (Mr. Ayrton).— Question put.— Committee divided. this Ayes, 3, Mr. Turner. Lord Stanley. Mr. Ayrton. Noes, 8. Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Tite. Mr. Knight. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Puller. SirG. Grey. Lord Elcho. Mr. M. Milnes. Amendment proposed to leave out the words, " proposed to be retained " (Sir George Grey).— Question, put. "That those words stand part of the paragraph." — Committee divided. Ayes, 7. Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Turner. Mr. Tite. Mr. Knight. Mr. Puller. Lord Stanley. Mr. Ayrton. Noes, 4. Mr. Lowe. Sir G. Grey. Lord Elcho. Mr. M. Milnes. Question, "That this paragraph stand part of proposed Report," put, and agreed to. Postponed Paragraph 2 again read. — Question, " That this paragraph stand part of pro- posed Report," put, and agreed to. Paragraph 4 read, and agreed to. Paragraph 5 read, and agreed to. Paragraph 6 read, and by leave withdrawn. Paragraph 7 read, and agreed to. Motion made and question proposed, " That the following paragraph, ' Your Committee are of opinion that this question cannot be satisfactorily answered until they have decided what amount of space can be obtained contiguous to the British Museum, and at what cost, as well as what provision may be made, and at what cost, for the reception elsewhere of any of the collections which may be removed ; they proceed, therefore, to state the result of the evidence which they have received on these points' (Sir George Grey) be added to the proposed Report. — Question put. — Committee divided : Ayes, 5. Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Lowe. Sir G. Grey. Lord Elcho. Mr. M. Milnes. Paragraph 8 read, and agreed to. Paragraph 9 read, and by leave withdrawn Noes, 6. Mr. Turner. Mr. Tite. Mr. Knight. Mr. Puller. Lord Stanley Mr. Ayrton. Paragraph 10 read. — Amendment proposed, at the end of the paragraph, to add the words, "4. From the risk of injury to valuable specimens, and the interruption to scientific Q, 773. 830. 31. inquiry consequent upon the time unavoidably requisite for packing, transporting, un- 845. 6. packing, and rearranging the collection " (Sir P. Egerton). — Question, " That those words be there added," put, and agreed to. — Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. Paragraph 11 read, amended, and agreed to. Paragraph 12 read, amended, and agreed to. Paragraph 13 read. — Amendments made. — Amendment proposed, after the word " position," to insert the words, " one less generally accessible " (Sir George Grey). — Question, " That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to. — Amendment pro- posed, to leave out the words from the word "railway," in line 5, to "importance," in line 7 (Sir George Grey). — Question, "That those words stand part of the paragraph," put, and agreed to. — Amendment proposed, to leave out the word " grave" (Sir George Grey). — 540. d 4 Question XXX11 PROCEEDINGS OF THE Committee Sir G. Grey. Mr. M. Milnes. Question put, " That the word ' grave ' stand part of the paragraph." divided : Ayes, 7. Noes > 2 - Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Turner. Mr. Tite. Mr. Knight. Mr. Puller. Lord Stanley. Mr. Ayrton. Amendment proposed, to leave out the words « almost universal," in line 9 (Sir George Grey).— Question put, " That the words, " almost universal" stand part of the paragraph put, and negatived. , [Adjourned to To-morrow, at Twelve o'clock. Veneris, 27° die Julii, I860. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Gregory. Sir G. Grey. Mr. Walpole. Lord Stanley. Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Turner. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Puller. Mr. Knight. Mr. Tite. Mr. Ayrton. Paragraph 13, as amended, again read. — Amendment proposed, at the end of the paragraph, to add the words: "It is obvious that the strength of this objection would be greatly diminished if these collections were to be removed, not to a distant locality, but to a site easily accessible to the inhabitants of the Metropolis" (Sir George Grey). — Question, " That those words be there added," put, and negatived. — Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. Paragraph 14 read.— Amendments made. — Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "indispensable," in line 5, to the end of the paragraph (Sir George Grey). — Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph." — Committee divided : Ayes, 2. Lord Stanley. Mr. Puller. Noes, 5. Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Turner. Mr. Walpole. Sir George Grey. Mr. Lowe. Further amendment made. — Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. Paragraph 15 read. — Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word, " The," in line 3, to the words " the formation," in line 7, page 9, in order to insert the words : " The force of the argument derived from this consideration can be justly estimated only by a comparison of the expense which would be required for the construction of a new Natural History Museum on some other site with the expense which would be incurred by such an enlargement of the present Museum as would adequately provide for the extension and arrangement of the various collections of the British Museum, including the Natural History Collection. Your Committee have taken some evidence on this point. Three sites have been referred to in the evidence, as available for the purpose, in case these collec- tions should be removed. The first is a portion of the land in the neighbourhood of Ken- sington, belonging to the "Royal Commissioners for the Exhibition of 1851, the second is the present site of Burlington House, the third is a plot of ground near Victoria-street, Westminster. " As to the first, Your Committee examined the Secretary to the Commissioners in order to ascertain whether the estimate of the price at which the land in question could be obtained was correct, as stated in a Report from a Special Committee of the Trustees of the British Museum, which is to be found in a paper presented to the House of Commons on 15th February 1860, and in which the price of that land was assumed to be 5,000 I. an acre. It appeared from Mr. Bowring's evidence, that this estimate had been formed without authority from the Commissioners, and that the marketable value of the land was 20,000 I. an acre, but that the Commissioners would be willing to dispose of the quantity required for a Natural History Museum at the rate of 10,000/. an acre, with the exception of a small portion of it, or about a quarter of an acre, the price of which would not exceed the rate of 5,000 1. an acre. Assuming that 5^- acres would be required, the cost of the land would be 53,750/. " As SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BEITISH MUSEUM. xxxiii " As to the second of these sites, Your Committee would refer to the evidence of Mr. Pennethorne, the architect of the Board of Works, from which it appears that the area pur- chased by the Government including Burlington House, and the ground around it at the price of about 150,000 1., and which has not yet been permanently appropriated to any public object, contains 144 superficial feet, or rather more than three acres. " As to the last of the suggested sites, Your Committee would refer to the evidence of Mr. Rigby Wason, who stated that more than 14 acres might be there obtained, at the rate of 7,000 I. an acre. " On the other hand, various plans have been laid before Your Committee for the enlarge- ment of the Museum, by the acquisition of land adjoining it, and the erection thereon of the requisite buildings. There is no doubt that the land adjoining the Museum is fully adequate in extent for that purpose. The ground which might be obtained in the north, east, and west sides of the Museum amounts altogether to about 5£ acres, and the price per acre would, according to Mr.. Smirke's estimate, be 40,000 1, or 50,000/. (2,413), or, for the whole, about 240,000/. The question, whether the whole, or, if not the whole how much of this land would be required for the purposes of the Museum, and what proportion of it would be required for the Natural History Collections, falls within the second head which Your Committee have proposed for their inquiry. With respect, however, to the question of expense, the comparative cost of the buildings to be erected on ground contiguous to the Museum, and on a separate site, must be taken into account. Your Committee have not received any conclusive evidence on this point. " It may indeed be assumed that the erection of an entirely new building on a distinct site would cost more than the erection of additional buildings adjoining the present Museum, as the former would probably require more architectural ornament than the latter, but Mr. Smirke (2447) does not think ' that that is a difference which need enter into the calcula- tion.' In neither case would it be necessary to erect at once the whole buildings which might ultimately be required" (Sir George Grey), instead thereof.— Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph," put, and negatived.— Question proposed, that those words be there inserted. — Amendment proposed, to leave out the words from " would," in line 2, to " with," in line 3, and from " as " in line 4, to " your Com- mittee," in line 6, in order to insert the words, " would provide for the construction of a new Natural History Museum on some other site, and also for such extension, if any, of the British Museum as may be required adequately to provide for the other collections ; " and the words, " will adequately provide for the extension and arrangement of all the collections now in the Museum, including the Natural History collections" (Mr. Puller), instead thereof.— Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the pro- posed amendment," put, and negatived. — Words inserted.— Amendment proposed, after the words "on this point," to omit all the words to the end of the proposed amendment (Mr. Walpole).— Question put, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the pro- posed amendment," put, and negatived.— Main question, as amended, put, and agreed to.— Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. Paragraph 16 read.— Amendments made.— Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word " illustrations" to the end of the paragraph (Mr. M. Milnes).— Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph," put, and agreed to.— Paragraph; as amended, agreed to. Paragraph 17, read.— Amendments made.— Amendment proposed, at the end of the paragraph, as amended, to add the words, "With reference to the comparative expense of removing the Natural History collections to a new site, and retaining them at the Museum it is contended that the removal of the Natural History collections will not in any material degree supersede the necessity of purchasing additional land and constructing more buildings in contiguity to the British Museum, for the purpose of providing adequate accommodation for the Archaeological collections, the heavier portion of which, m the opinion of aU the wit- nesses examined on that subject, ought to be exhibited on the ground floor (Mr Fuller).— Question, « That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.— Amendment proposed, at the end of the last amendment, to add the words, » This however, raises a question which can only be fully considered under the second and fourth heads of inquiry (Sir Geo. Grey). —Question, " That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.-Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. ^ Paragraph 18 read. -Question, " That this paragraph stand part of proposed Report, ^put, and negatived. „ Paragraph 19 read. -Question, " That this paragraph stand part of proposed Report, put, and negatived. Paragraph 20 read.-Amendments made—Amendment proposed to add the words "Under this head the Committee would refer to the evidence of the Keeper of the PaWtolog cal Department, wherein he states that he apprehended much injury and los e ; 773. 830, 831. m the removal of objects under his care. The interruption to scientific studies consequent 845-6. upon the time required for the removal of the collections has been alluded toby several of the men of science who have been examined by the Committee" (Sir P. Egerton).- Question, « That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.-Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. . [Adjourned to Monday, at One o'clock. 540. e XXXIV PROCEEDINGS OF THE Lunce, 30° die Julii, 1860. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. Gregory in the Chair. Mr. Turner. Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Knight. Lord Stanley. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Tite. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. "Walpole. Sir George Grey. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Puller. Panizzi, 337. Motion made and question proposed, after paragraph 20, to add the following paragraph (Mr. Lowe): — " The witnesses in favour of the removal of the Natural History Collection to another site, support their view by urging the following considerations : — " That visitors are bewildered and confused by the extent and variety of the collections in the British Museum. " That there is no advantage in retaining the collections of Art and those of Natural History in the same building. " That in no age or country has it ever been attempted to bring together such mixed and extensive collections as those of the British Museum, nor has it been thought expedient to unite them when separately formed. " That the separation of some of the collections from the rest will facilitate the manage- ment of the Museum, and tend to remove any feeling of jealousy between the departments, arising from an impression that an advantage is given to one over another, and that too much space is occupied, as well as expense caused by rival departments. " That want of space will prove injurious to the proper growth and increase of the Owen, 537. 564. 661, collections, as has been formerly the case. 662,663.2490,2491. " That if the whole site surrounding the Museum were to be purchased and applied to the present pressing wants for the exhibition of its collections, a time would necessarily arrive when no convenient space could be found available for the collections of printed books and manuscripts. These must necessarily be placed handy to the Beading Boom, which no one will think of removing. " That the expedient suggested of diminishing the exhibition of objects in which the public takes so much interest is a retrograde step which, however unobjectionable on the part of privileged scientific men, must prove inconvenient and injurious to the public generally, whose means of instruction and amusement would thus be curtailed. " That the large masses that visit the Crystal Palace, the Kensington Museum, the Zoological Gardens, Kew, and Hampton Court, tend to show that the removal of the Natural History Collection to a less central place would not prove inconvenient to the generality of the public. Layard, 2581, 2582. 2607, 2608. Newton, 3192. Owen, 671. 623. 747. Huxley, 1152. Panizzi, 141. 3522, 3523, 3524. Panizzi, 423, 424. Huxley, 1129- Owen,*648, 649/669. Layard, 2577, 2578. Panizzi, 133. 332. 2498. Panizzi, 109,110 Panizzi, 64. 68. 479 482. 3531. 3543. 3550. Owen, 499. 524-6. 624. Sclater, 2823, 2824 Cole, 2985. Bowring, 3364, 3365, 3366. 3375. Panizzi, 3510. Bowring, 3381 . Owen, 677-9. Cole, 2935, 2936. 2985-88. Owen, 546. Owen, 548. 550. Owen, 571. Owen, 62 . 630. Sir C. Eastlake, 2675. " It is also the opinion of Professor Owen, that the cost of packing and unpacking is much exaggerated, and that the removal of the Natural History Collections of the British Museum is a very easy and much less anxious task than two removals of the Anatomical Collection of the College of Surgeons, successfully effected by the curator, Professor Owen. * " That the Library of Sir Joseph Banks ought to go with the Natural History Collec- tions, and that if this was done an extra grant of 10,000?. would be sufficient for a com- plete library of Natural History. Your Committee reserves the expression of their opinion on this branch of inquiry to a later part of the Beport. " That the separation from the Library is the principal objection to a removal of the Natural History Collection, and that there is nothing in the contiguity of a collection of scientific objects with a collection of Arts or Antiquities, which would materially benefit the one or the other. " That for the purpose of exhibition varieties have become almost as important a"s species. " Sir C. Eastlake observes, that it is not necessary that collections of painting and sculpture should be under the same roof; it is sufficient if one city contain them, and that it would not be of much practical use to have an enormous museum to contain every- thing." — Amendment proposed, to leave out the words, " and much less anxious task than two removals of the Anatomical Collection of the College of Surgeons, successfully effected by the curator, Professor Owen" (Mr. Knight). Question put, " That those words stand part of proposed paragraph." — Committee divided : Ayes, 5. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. XXXV Ayes, 5. Mr. Puller. Sir G. Grey. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Walpole. Noes, 5. Mr. Turner. Mr. Tite. Mr. Knight. Lord Stanley. Mr. Ayrton. Whereupon the Chairman declared himself with the Noes.— Amendment proposed, to leave out from the words, " later part of the Eeport," to the end of the proposed paragraph (Mr. Ayrton),— Question, " That those words stand part of the proposed paragraph," put, and negatived. — Question, " That this paragraph, as amended, he added to proposed Ee- port/' put, and agreed to. Paragraph 21 read.— Question, " That this paragraph stand part of proposed Eeport," put, and negatived. Paragraphs 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, severally read, amended, and agreed to. Paragraph 28 read. — Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word " observe," in line 2, to the end of the paragraph, in order to add the words, " That the British Museum is a repository in which objects of historical or archasological interest ought to find a place, without limitation to any particular time or country ; that there is no more reason for keeping mediaeval antiquities separate from those of Greece and Rome, than for placing the latter apart from the remains of Egypt and Assyria; that if space were assigned, and a fair proportion of the public grant were allotted to it, the department of Mediaeval Antiquities would soon become one of great interest to the public, and great value to the student of history, and probably be enriched by valuable bequests and gifts " (Mr. Puller), instead thereof. — Question put, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the para- graph," put, and negatived. — "Words added. — Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. [Adjourned to Thursday, at Twelve o'clock. Jovis, 2° die Augusti, 1860. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. Gregory in the Chair. Mr. Turner. Mr. Walpole. Sir G. Grey. Mr. Knight. Mr. Tite. Lord Stanley. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Puller. • Mr. Stirling. Paragraph 29 read. — Amendments made.— Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word " retained" to the end of the paragraph, in order to add the words : — " The amount of space required for this department of the British Museum depends, to a great extent, on the principle of arrangement adopted. Two widely different opinions on this point have been urged before Your Committee, involving a practical question of great importance. On the one hand, the Superintendent of Natural History had contended that the great majority of the objects at present in that department, as well as those to be added, should be exhibited. To carry out these views, he calculates that it will be neces- sary to provide buildings which, if containing galleries on two floors, as he recommends, will cover five acres ; if upon one floor, ten acres. On the other hand, with this eminent exception, the whole of the scientific naturalists who have been examined before Your Com- mittee, including the keepers of all the departments of Natural History in the British Museum, are of opinion that an exhibition on so large a scale tends alike to the needless bewilderment and fatigue of the public, and the impediment of the studies of the scientific visitor. These witnesses, therefore, strongly recommend a limited, though liberal, exhibi- tion of the collections upon the principle of arrangement technically described as typical. This principle, recognising the universally admitted fact, that the majority of the specimens in every zoological and palasontological collection which approaches completeness, are useful, and indeed intelligible, only to the skilled naturalist, requires the separation of such a col- lection into two portions ; the one, consisting of specimens illustrative of the leading points, both of popular and of scientific interest, connected with the class to which they belong, and the other of specimens which have an exclusively scientific value. The former collection is to be displayed with all the art of the taxidermist, so as to arrest the attention and awaken the interest of the casual visitor ; while the latter, stored in a comparatively small compass, and with little expense, in drawers and cases, is to be at all times conveniently accessible to the student. In corroboration of these views, several of the same witnesses insist on the inevitable deterioration which constant exposure to light effects in specimens of the animal kingdom ; in many instances destroying or changing the colours of mammalia, birds, shells, 540. e 2 and xxxvi PROCEEDINGS OF THE and insects, so as to render them useless either for scientific or popular exhibition. The necessary result, it is contended, of an indiscriminate exposure of objects so sensitive must be either that incorrect or imperfect ideas will be communicated by the display of faded specimens, or that constant and heavy demands must be made on the public purse for the replacement of such specimens. " In deciding between these conflicting opinions, Your Committee think it impossible to overlook the weight due to economical considerations ; a valuable assistance to their judg- ment on this point has been furnished by the Report of the Special Committee of Trustees appointed November 26, 1859, from which it appears, that quite irrespectively of the cost of ground, which necessarily varies in different localities, the' expense of buildings covering five acres and a half would probably amount to about 567,000 1. " To this must be added the expense of fittings, which, according to the testimony of the architect of the Museum, would amount to a sum no less than Considering, therefore, that so large an expenditure would, in the opinion of the great majority of natu- ralists, be the means merely of doing an injury rather than a benefit to natural science, Your Committee cannot hesitate in recommending the adoption of the typical principle of arrangement, with limited exhibition of the collections to the public. " They now, therefore, proceed to state the demands of the keepers of the various depart- ments of Natural History, founded on the principle here recommended," instead thereof. Question, " That ths words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph," put, and negatived. — Question proposed, " That those words be there added."— Amendment proposed, to leave out the words, " two widely different," in line 2, in order to insert the words, " And very different estimates have consequently been laid before Your Com- mittee as to the amount of space required. Professor Owen is of opinion that, in order adequately to provide for the exhibition of these collections, taking into account their possible extension during the next 30 years, five acres of land will be necessary, assuming that, as he recommends, the building should consist of galleries on two floors, and 10 acres if there should be only one floor. He does not, however, propose that the building to be at once erected should be larger than is required for the existing collections" (Sir George Grey), instead thereof.— Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed amendment. — Committee divided: Ayes, 6. Mr. Turner. Mr. Knight. Mr. Tite. Mr. Puller. Mr. Stirling Lord Stanley. Noes, 3. Sir G. Grey. Mr. Walpole. Mr. Lowe. Question again proposed, " That those words be there added." — Amendment proposed, to leave out the words, " had contended that the great majority of the objects at present in. that department, as well as those to be added, should be exhibited," in order to insert the words, " Professor Owen states that, for the purposes of exhibition, varieties are now as important as species ; that conclusions are much facilitated by comparison, and compari- son is much easier between stuffed specimens placed before the eye at once than between skins taken one by one out of a drawer ; that he attaches great importance to the systematic exhibition of species a little differing to show the way in which the order is modified and has a transition into another, and the way in which the different modifications blend one with another, so that the great features of the class may be seen" (Mr. Lowe), instead thereof. — Question put, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed amendment." — Committee divided : Ayes, 3. Mr. Turner. Mr. Tite. Mr. Puller. Noes, 5. Sir G. Grey. Mr. Walpole. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Stirling. Lord Stanley. Words inserted. — Question again proposed, " That those words be there added " Amendment proposed, to leave out the words, " upon the principle of arrangement technically described as typical" (Mr. Lowe). —Question, " That those words stand part of the proposed amendment." — Committee divided : Ayes, 6. Mr. Turner. Mr. Walpole. Mr. Knight. Mr. Tite. Mr. Puller. Lord Stanley. Noes, 3. Sir G. Grey. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Stirling. Question SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM xxxvil Question again proposed, " That those words be there added."— Amendment proposed, after the words " replacement of such specimens," to insert the words, " It is, however, admitted by two, at least, of the scientific naturalists above referred to, ' that the notions abroad about type collections are excessively vague, and that they convey not the same idea to any two men ; ' and again, that the word ' type' is used in two different senses " (Sir George Grey).— Question, " That those words be inserted in the proposed amendment," put, and agreed to.— Question again proposed, " That those words be there added."— Amend- ment proposed, to leave out the words, •'' In deciding between these conflicting opinions, Your Committee think it impossible to overlook the weight due to economical considerations ; a valuable assistance to their judgment on this point has been furnished by the Report of the Special Committee of Trustees appointed November 26, 1859, from which it appears, that quite irrespectively of the cost of ground, which necessarily varies in different localities, the .expense of buildings covering five acres and a half would probably amount to about 567,000?." (Sir George Grey).— Question put, " That those words stand part of the proposed amendment." — Committee divided : Ayes, 4. Mr. Turner. Mr. Tite. Mr. Puller. Mr. Stirling. Noes, 4. Sir G-. Grey. Mr. Walpole. Mr. Lowe. Lord Stanley. Whereupon the Chairman declared himself with the Ayes. — Question again proposed, " That those words be there added." — Amendment proposed, to leave out the words, " which, according to the testimony of the architect of the Museum, would amount to a sum no less than Considering, therefore, that so large an expenditure would, in the opinion of the great majority of naturalists, be the means merely of doing an injury rather than a benefit to natural science, Your Committee cannot hesitate in recommending the adoption of the typical principle of arrangement, with limited exhibition of the collections to the public," in order to insert the words, " Your Committee therefore recommend the , adoption of the more limited kind of exhibition advocated by the other witnesses, in pre- ference to the more extended method recommended by Professor Owen" (Mr. Puller), instead thereof. — Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed amendment," put, and negatived. — Question, That the words, " Your Committee therefore recommend the adoption of the more limited kind of exhibition advocated by the other witnesses in preference to the more extended method recommended by Professor Owen," be inserted in the proposed amendment, put, and agreed to.— Question, as amended, put, and agreed to. — Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. Paragraphs 30 and 31 severally read, amended, and agreed to. Paragraph 32 read. — Amendments made. — Paragraph, as amended, read, and agreed to. Motion made, and Question, that the following paragraph be inserted after para- graph 32 : — " 4. Botany. — The keeper oi* this .department states that with a small amount of easily Bennett, I2ISL ■ accessible store-room, he would have ample space for all his present collections and future wants. " 2. Drawings and Prints. — The demand of the keeper of this department, both for the present collections and for future accessions during the next half century, include another room of the same size (50 x 30) as the present room, marked 20, and two rooms for exhibi- tion, each 60 x 40, making a total of about 8,000 feet of floor space. Your Committee would, however, observe, that should the drawings be removed to the National Gallery at any future time, less exhibition space would be required." — Question put, and agreed to. Paragraph 33 read, amended, and agreed to. Paragraph 34 read. — Amendments made. — Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word " sculpture" to the words "this estimate," in order to insert the words "it also assumes the retention in the Museum of the Ethnographical Collection, and the devotion to it of a space of 10,000 feet, being four times as great as that which it now occupies," - (Mr. Puller), instead thereof. — Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph," put, and negatived. — Question, " That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.— Amendment proposed, that the words, " The total amount -of space therefore which would be required, so far as an accurate estimate has been laid before Your Committee, is 81,268 superficial feet. To this must be added the unascer- tained space required, as before mentioned, for the department of zoology, and for the ■ studios and working rooms which have been recommended. On the other hand, 10,000 feet would have to be deducted, if the Ethnographical Collection should be removed. At the same time it is obvious that the total area thus required need not be all on one floor," be added to the paragraph (Sir G. Grey). — Question, " That those words be there added," jrat, and agreed to. — Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. Paragraph 35 read. — Amendments made. — Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. [Adjourned to Monday, at One o'clock. £40. e 3 xxxviii PROCEEDINGS OF THE Lunce, 6° die Augusti, 1860. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. G-kegory in the Chair. Mr. Ayrton. Sir P. Egerton. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Walpole. Sir George Grey. Mr. Tite. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Knight. Mr. Turner. Mr. Hardy. Motion made and question proposed, " That the following paragraph be inserted after paragraph 35 of the proposed Report : " " Independently, however, of this larger suggestion, Your Committee are fully convinced, both from the uniform purport of the papers printed at different times by the House of Commons, and from the statements of the various witnesses whom they have now examined, that it is indispensable, not merely to the appropriate exhibition of our unequalled national collections, but even to the avoidance of greater ultimate expense through alterations and re-arrangements, that sufficient space should be immediately acquired in connexion with the British Museum to meet the requirements of the several departments which have been enumerated under the last head, and that such space should, throughout, be adapted by its position, extent, and facilities of application, to the arrangement of the collections on a comprehensive, and, therefore, probably permanent system. They will now proceed to point out several sites, either on or adjoining the present ground of the Museum, which seem to them to present the greatest advantages for the accommodation of the respective departments. "Natural History. — Although the amount of space which, on the foregoing estimate, would be requisite for the Natural History Departments is not so great as to involve the necessity of their removal from the British Museum on that ground alone, Your Com- mittee nevertheless attach so much weight to the arguments in favour of preserving the various departments of the Museum from the risk of collision with each other, that should it be determined to provide new space for Natural History, in connexion with the Museum, they would make it a primary object to isolate its collections, as far as possible, from all others in the same locality. The chief part of the Natural History collections is now on the upper floor, where they occupy, according to the return of Mr. Smirke in November 1857, 48,442 superficial feet. The remainder of that floor, containing, exclusively of a small space not reckoned by Mr. Smirke, 21,532 feet, is occupied by antiquities. It appears to Your Committee that if, by any adaptation of ground to be acquired adjoining the Museum, adequate space could be provided elsewhere for the antiquities now on the upper floor, the most expedient arrangement would be to appropriate the whole of that floor to the Natural History collections. If this space proved insufficient for all such collec- tions, Your Committee would then recommend that the* newly acquired portion should be applied exclusively to the Department of Zoology; and that a sufficient portion of ground should be purchased on the north side of the Museum, as a site for galleries to provide for Mineralogy, and thus also indirectly for Geology. " Prints and Drawings. — A convenient site for this department would, in the opinion of Your Committee, be provided by the suggested acquisition of additional ground on the north side. A building might there be erected in continuation of the present east wino- of the Museum, to contain on its upper floor the Mineralogical Collections, and on its lower the Prints and Drawings, with adequate space both for their preservation and exhibition. " Antiquities. — In determining the site most suitable for the large additional acommodation required for this department, Your Committee would be guided partly by the greater or less cost of purchasing the requisite amount of ground in different directions, but chiefly by the greater or less fitness of the different portions of ground for the best system of arrangement." Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word " system" in line 10, to the word "Antiquities" in line 40, in order to insert the words: — " If the 5| acres, repre- senting on the ground-floor a space of nearly 240,000 superficial feet, were now to be purchased, the whole would not be required for the immediate wants of the Museum unless the more extended plan of Professor Owen for exhibiting the Natural History Collections should be adopted. There is no specific evidence as to the exact amount which will be needed altogether ; but, as far as Your Committee are able to judge, and allowing for a reasonable extension of the collections for some years to come, it is probable that the different departments will require immediately about 100,000 superficial feet; namely :— " For Antiquities (say) - 60,000 Zoology - - - - - - 10^000 Geology and Mineralogy - - - - 12 000 Prints, Studies, &c. - - 18,000 100,000 "To SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. xxxix " To provide the requisite space for this Estimate, it would be necessary to consider what portions of the new building might be constructed with tw© floors, and how much of them should be constructed with one floor only. Upon this part of the subject, also, there is no specific evidence ; but supposing that one-third of the proposed new building only has two floors, about 66,000 superficial feet, or an acre and a half, would be required ; and taking it at one-half, 50,000 superficial feet, or about an acre and one-eighth, would be suificient. It will be safer to assume the higher estimate. " The space so required might be obtained either to the north or to the west. It would not be so convenient for the Antiquity department to make the extension on the eastern side, because the whole of the ground-floor on that side is occupied by the two departments of Printed Books and of Manuscripts. If the additional space is purchased on the north or on the west, the expense would be probably nearly the same ; and it may be calculated at about 65,000 I: for an. acre and a half. The cost of the building cannot fee estimated at less than 2 1, the square foot of floor space, and therefore it would have to be increased or diminished in proportion as the building may consist either of one or of two floors. " It should here be borne in mind, that the necessity of making the contemplated additions to the British Museum would certainly be lessened if the Natural History Col- lections were removed to another site ; but in that case they must be provided for else- where. If the question whether that and the other collections should be placed together were now to be determined for the first time, it might be expedient to keep them distinct under separate buildings, and in different localities. But considering that the Natural History Collections formed part of the original bequest of Sir Hans Sloane ; that they have since been brought to great perfection ; that there would be considerable risk, delay, and inconvenience in breaking them up and taking them away to some other site ; and that the cost of doing so, including the cost of a new establishment, the transfer of them, the outlay on fittings necessary for their reception, could hardly be contemplated as an econo- mical arrangement, Your Committee are not prepared to recommend that these collections should be removed. " Assuming, then, that the Natural History Collections are still preserved in the British Museum, Your Committee are of opinion that the requisite space tor the different depart- ments can, with a due regard to economy, be obtained in connexion with the British Museum. It is worthy of notice also, that by purchasing the space which is now required for all those collections in that neighbourhood, there would still be the means of adding thereto as the collections increased. One acre and a half or two acres might immediately be purchased, and from three acres or three and a half, as the case may be, would still remain ; and if a contract were now entered into with the ground landlord for purchasing Bis interest from time to time in all the land to the north, east, and west, probably in the end that course would not only be the best, but the most convenient for providing prospec- tively for the growing wants of the different departments " (Mr. Walpole), instead thereof. Question put, " That the words ' Independently, however, of this larger suggestion, Your Committee are fully convinced, both from the uniform purport of the papers printed at different times by the House of Commons, and from the statements of the various wit- nesses whom they have now examined, that it is indispensable, not merely to the appro- priate exhibition of cur unequalled national collections, but even to the avoidance of greater ultimate expense through alterations and re-arrangements, that sufficient space should be immediately acquired in connexion with the British Museum to meet the requirements of the several departments which have been enumerated under the last head, and that such space should, throughout, be adapted by its position, extent, and facilities of application, to the arrangement of the collections on a comprehensive, and,' therefore, probably permanent system. They will now proceed to point out several sites, either on or adjoining the present ground of the Museum, which seem to them to present the greatest advantages for the accommodation of the respective Departments,,' stand part of the proposed paragraph." — Committee divided: — Ayes, 5. Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Knight. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Tite. Mr. Turner. Noes, 5. Sir P. Egerton. Sir G. Grey. Mr. Lowe. Lord Stanley. Mr. Walpole. Whereupon the Chairman declared himself with the Ayes. Amendments made. — Question, "That this paragraph, as amended, be inserted after paragraph 35 in the proposed Report," put and agreed to. Motion made, and Question proposed, " That the following paragraph be inserted in the proposed Report : i Now, any ground lying immediately to the west of the Museum is likely to be somewhat cheaper than the same quantity to the east or north, from the infirm cha- racter of the houses in Charlotte- street to those in Montague-street or Montague-place. But stronger reasons for preferring the west side for the collections of antiquities, parti- cularly of sculpture, will be found in the following recommendations, which it alone possesses." — Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "Now" to the end of the paragraph, in order to add the words, " Your Committee have received various suggestions 504. e 4 upon xl PROCEEDINGS OF THE upon this point, mainly advocating extension to the west, which will be found in the evidence,- to which they have no doubt the attention of the Trustees and of the Government will be- carefully directed" (Sir G % . Grey), instead thereof. — Question, " That the words proposed to- be left out stand part of the paragraph." — Committee divided : Ayes, 5. Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Knight. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Tite. Mr. Turner. Noes, 6. Sir P. Egerton. Sir G.' Grey. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Lowe. Lord Stanley. Mr. Walpole. Question, " That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.— Question, " That this paragraph, as amended, be inserted in the proposed Report," put, and agreed to. Paragraph 36 read.— Question, " That this paragraph stand part of proposed Report," put, and negatived. Paragraph 37 read. — Amendments made. — Amendment proposed, to leave out from the- word " collections " to the words " use of scientific visitors," in order to insert the words, " Your Committee are unwilling to express an opinion upon this point without having before them all the plans which may be recommended ; all such plans should be carefully examined by professional men, both with regard to their architectural design and the internal arrangement which may be considered best for the preservation and exhibition of the different collections, the observations of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into' the constitution, &c, of the British Museum are so just and so appropriate, with refer- ence to this branch of the subject, that Your Committee desire to adopt them implicitly {see Report 1850, p. 38):— " ' It seems to us that any scheme for additional buildings should be based in the first instance on reports from the several departments of the Museum, containing all attainable information of the present and future exigencies of each department. That it should be for the Trustees to digest a scheme founded on these reports, and upon full and free com- munication with the officers, for the consideration of Her Majesty's Government. If such a course were pursued, we conceive that responsibility for architectural results would mainly henceforth attach to the Trustees, not, perhaps, to any of them as individuals, but to them as a corporation, alive to its corporate character and reputation ; and so far a better depositary of such special responsibility than an administration of the day, a Committee of the House of Commons, or a Commission pro hdc vice. In such case, the records of the Museum itself, the minutes of its meetings, and its correspondenc with the Government, would at once show to any future inquirers under the sanction of what authority, by the - guidance of what reasons and principles, or the influence of what accidents, results, whether adjudged upon experience to be satisfactory or defective, had been obtained. Evidence would be forthcoming of the difficulties which had been encountered, of the extent to which the views of the Trustees had been accepted or overruled, which woidd enable public - opinion to do retrospective justice to all concerned, and would be useful for the guidance of any further operations.' " To these observations the only remark which Your Committee would deem it expedient to add is this, that before any plans are actually adopted, and the necessary Estimate voted" for the purpose, Your Committee recommend that such plans should be laid before both Houses of Parliament" (Mr. Walpole), instead thereof. — Question put, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph." — Committee divided. Ayes, 5. Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Knight. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Tite. Mr. Turner. Noes, 6. Sir P. Egerton. Sir G. Grey. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Lowe. Lord Stanley. Mr. Walpole. Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted." — Amendment proposed, to leave out from the words " the different collections" to the words " further operations" (Mr. Ayrton).— Question put, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of pro- posed amendment." — Committee divided: Ayes, 6. Sir P. Egerton. Sir G. Grey. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Lowe. Lord Stanley. Mr. Walpole. Noes, 4. Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Tite. Mr. Turner. Main SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. xli Question, " That those words be there inserted/' put, and agreed to.— Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. Paragraph 38 read — Amendments made. — Paragraph, as amended agreed to. Paragraph 39 read. — Question, " That this paragraph stand part of the proposed Report," put, and negatived. Paragraph 40 read. — Amendments made.— Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. Paragraph 41 read. — Amendments made. — Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. Paragraph 42 read.— Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word " That" to the end of the paragraph, in order to add the words, " under all these circumstances, and upon a full consideration of the evidence adduced, Your Committee has arrived at the con- clusion that sufficient reason has not been assigned for the removal of any part of the valuable collection now in the Museum, except that of ethnography, the portraits, and the drawings, as previously recommended" (Mr. Walpole), instead thereof. — Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph,'" put, and negatived. — Question proposed, " That those words be there inserted." — Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word " circumstances" to the end of the proposed amendment, in order to insert the words, " Considering the little connexion between the Natural History collection with the other collections of the Museum, the applicability of the principle of division of labour to museums, the unsatisfactory nature of" the fanciful principle of a * collection of collections,' the high price of land at Bloomsbury, the fact that a very small part of the Natural History collection was included in the collection purchased from Sir H. Sloane, the very imperfect state of the zoological collections, and other arguments which have been set forth in the earlier part of this Report, Your Committee cannot recommend the retention of the Natural History collections at Bloomsbury as a permanent arrangement," (Mr. Lowe), instead thereof. — Question, " That the words proposed to be left out stand part of proposed amendment," put, and agreed to. —Main Question, " That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to. — Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. Paragraph 43 read. — Amendments made. — Paragraph, as amended, agreed to. Paragraph 44 read. — Question, " That this paragraph stand part of the proposed Report," put, and negatived. [Adjourned to Friday next, at One o'clock. Veneris, 10° die Augusti, 1860. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. Gregory in the Chair. Mr. Walpole. Mr. Puller. Mr. Lowe. Lord Stanley. Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Tite. Report, as amended, read. Question, That this Report, as amended, be the Report of the Committee to The House, put, and agreed to. Question, That the Minutes of Evidence, and Appendix, be reported to The House, put, and agreed to. Ordered to Report. 504. [ rfiv ] LIST OF WITNESSES. Martis, 5° die Junii, 1860. Antonio Panizzi, Esq. - - p. Veneris, 8° die Junii, 1860. Antonio Panizzi, Esq. - - p. Martis, 12° die Junii, 1860. Antonio Panizzi, Esq. - - p. Professor Richard Owen - p. Veneris, 14° die Junii, 1860. Professor Richard Owen - p. Dr. John Edward Gray - p. George Robert Waterhouse, Esq. - - - - p. Martis, 19° die Junii, 1860. Nevil Maskelyne, Esq. - - p. John Gould, Esq. - - p. Professor Thomas Henry Hux- ley - - - - - p. Veneris, 22° die Junii, 1860. Dr. John Edward Gray - p. John Joseph Bennett, Esq. - p. Sir Roderick Impey Murchi- P- P- P- son Sir Benjamin Brodie, Bart Professor Thomas Bell 21 40 52 6i 6 7 72 83 86 95 99 101 m 115 Jounce, 25° die Junii, 1860. Edward Hawkins, Esq. - p. 11 8 Edmund Oldfield, Esq. - p. 131 Jovis, 28° die Junii, 1860. Edmund Oldfield, Esq. - p. 134 William Carpenter, Esq. - p. 146 Lunce, 2° die Julii, 1860. The Rev. Dr. Grigg Hewlett p. 148 Sidney Smirke, Esq. - - p. 151 Jovis, 5° die Julii, 1860. Professor Richard Owen P- 160 Austin Henry Layard, Esq. - P- 162 Sir Charles Eastlake P- 170 Albert Way, Esq. P- 172 Lunce, 9° die Julii, 1860. Philip Lutley Sclater, Esq. - P- 176 James Pennethorne, Esq. P- 180 Henry Cole, Esq., c. b. P- 182 Richard Westmacott, Esq. - P- 189 Charles Thomas Newton, Esq. P- 193 Jovis, 12° die Julii, 186C t. Charles Thomas Newton, Esq. P- »99 Edgar Alfred Bowring, Esq. - P- 207 The Right Honourable Sir Thomas Wyse - P- 212 Mr. Benjamin Hayes - P- .215 Luna, 16° die Julii, 1860. Antonio Panizzi, Esq. ■» - p. 217 Rigby Wason, Esq. - - p. 231 [ 1 ] MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Martis, 5° die Junii, 1 860. MEMBERS PRESENT. Sir Philip Egerton. Mr. W. H. Gregory. Sir George Grey. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Puller. Lord Stanley. Mr. Stirling. Mr. "Walpole. Me. W. H. GREGORY, in the Chair. Antonio Panizzi, Esq. ; Examined. 1. Chairman.'] You are Principal Librarian at the British Museum? — I am. 2. How long have you been principal librarian ? — This is my fifth year: I have been at the Museum a little more than 29 years. 3. Although I do not see in the statutes and rules of the Museum, that it is your duty to pre- sent to the trustees all reports from the heads of departments, I presume that all such reports do go through you ? — Yes* they all go through me ; there are minutes to that effect. 4. You are, therefore, perfectly acquainted with the urgent demands for space which have been made by the heads of the different departments ? — I think I am ; and I have urged them myself. o. I believe since February 1848 plans for increasing the accommodation in the British Museum have been considered ? — Yes. 6. Was not the expected acquisition of land at Kensington the chief cause why no decided step has been taken to give the requisite accommoda- tion, and did not the Treasury in 1853 intimate that no plans would be entertained for the im- provement and enlargement of the British Museum, until it was decided whether this acquisition of land at Kensington would not enable them to dis- pense with purchasing land elsewhere ? — That is perfectly correct, but [ do not recollect the date exactly ; that letter of the Treasury is printed in some of the returns laid before the House of Commons. 7. May I not take it for granted that in every department, except that of printed books and manuscripts, there is a demand for increased space ? — You may. In the manuscript depart- ment the keeper complains that there is not space enough, although, I think, for the present, there is; but Sir Frederick Madden is not of that opinion. 8. What is your opinion as to the space which there is for printed books, and for how many years would it suffice ? — It was calculated, when the new building was suggested, that it would ; 0.96. contain 800,000 volumes ; that is stated in the papers that were laid before the House of Commons at the time ; but I have very little doubt, con- sidering that at this time very few folios and quartos are printed, that it will contain a million. It was calculated, that if the trustees bought at the rate of 20,000 volumes a year, it would serve exactly for 50 years. We have bought at a larger rate of late ; more than 28,000 volumes in a year have been added ; but certainly, for 40 years, from the time it was built, it will provide all the space that will be necessary for the printed books. 9. I believe you presented very elaborate re- ports to the trustees in November 1857 and in June 1858, on the subject of the increased space that was required for the different departments ? — I did. A certain number of questions were put to me by the trustees, and I was ordered to report upon them, wfiich I did as well as I could. I was instructed, as the report says, that I should not speculate upon the possibility of the Natural His- tory collections being removed ; it was a verbal instruction given to me, that I should consider the Museum to remain as it is now. The trustees then had that report printed, first of all for their private use, and then sent it to the Government ; and then, as no effect was produced by it, and the pressure for space increased, I made another report of my own accord ; the number of the paper is in return No. 379 of the 1st of July 1858. 10. I presume that in one of three ways space may be found for the present collections ; first of all, by making the best of the existing accommo- dation, economising the present room, and exhi- biting fewer objects than are exhibited- now. Secondly, by increasing the accommodation to the measure of your wants, by purchasing land con- tiguous to the Museum ; and, thirdly, by remov- ing some of the principal collections elsewhere ? — These seem to me to be the only three plans ; and I suggested them myself in that long report in November 1857. I stated that the present build- ing might, if necessary, be appropriated in a A different I. Panizzi, Esq. 5 June i860. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Panizzi, different manner ; not that I approved of it, but Esq. as I was asked to report upon it, I did report. Then was contemplated an increase of the ground ^R« ne roun< l tne Museum, to be purchased'; I do not i860. think that it was ever contemplated to diminish the extent of the collections ; but it was contem- plated to leave some of the present collections out pf the calculation, with the hope of removing them-— I do not mean the Natural History collec- tion. In that report I refer to the antiquities of the middle ages, and to the ethnographical collec- tion, which take up so much room ; finally, it has been contemplated, but not then, to remove part of the collection from the Museum ; I do not think it was at that time. 11. First, let us deal with the department of antiquities, and see whether it would be possible to provide sufficient space, as the Museum now stands, without increasing your buildings. You have now a considerable accumulation of very valuable and interesting collections which are imperfectly exhibited ? — Yes. 12. You have Mr. Newton's collections from Cnidos and Halicarnassus, under the columns of the approach ? — Yes. 13. You have, also, a large collection of very interesting mosaics as works of art from Carthage, sent by Mr. Davis ? — Yes, we have. 14. They are now kept in the basement, and very imperfectly exhibited? — Yes; and there is more than that in the Department of Antiquities. For example, there are Etruscan antiquities in the basement, where they can hardly be seen. 15. Are you of opinion, considering the value, as works of art, of these mosaics, that it would not be very desirable to have a room exclusively for their exhibition ? — I do not know whether it would be necessary to have a room ; certainly that would be the best way ; but they ought to be better exhibited than they are now. 16. You have a considerable number, I imagine, of Phoenician antiquities and inscriptions ? — Yes ; I was going to allude to them when I was speak- ing of the Etruscan antiquities. There are a certain number of fragments of inscriptions which are now kept in a basement room, from the public. 17- You have, also, some sculptures from Persepolis, and some Sinaitic inscriptions ? — Yes. 18. You have, also, I imagine, Byzantine, Oriental, Mexican, and Peruvian antiquities, which are stowed away in the basement ? — Yes, a few of them; and, I may add, that I do not think it is any great loss that they are not better placed than they are. ' 19. With regard to the Phoenician inscriptions, I presume you are of opinion that very consider- able importance is attached to them by learned persons, and that it would be most advisable that they should be placed where they could be exa- mined and seen by the public properly ?— Most certainly ; the gentlemen from the Antiquities Department made a proposal to the trustees to publish them, and the trustees have ordered their publication. 20. With regard to medals and coins, do you consider that the medals and coins convey that instruction and that amusement which they ought to do, by being kept as they are at present, in the small medal room, without the public having any means of seeing what are most beautiful works of art ? — Certainly not ; I had occasion to say in a report that, when medals and coins come to the Medal Room of the Museum, they are, in fact, withdrawn from the view of the public in general, and it is only certain persons who can be admitted there to look at certain coins ; but if there was space, the trustees have always intended to have an exhibition of them. 21. I believe medals and coins are exhibited in some foreign collections ? — Yes, but not at the Museum. But, further, in the old house, the gems which the trustees possess were exhibited ; but now there is no space to exhibit them, and they are kept in a room next to the Medal Room, to which the public have not access. All the gems, the gold ornaments and other things of very great value, are kept there. 22. Do you consider that the present collec- tions of antiquities are exhibited in a manner befitting such an institution as the British Mu- seum, considering the expense that has been in- curred ?— I think not. First of all, in general the objects are too crowded together, and then they are very often mixed in a manner that they ought not to be. There is, moreover, difficulty of access to them. In the very first room, on the left hand side, you have a series of Roman busts, and those seem to me not to be well placed. Up-stairs you have that beautiful collection that Sir William Temple left, and, for want of room, that collection is placed amongst the Egyptian antiquities ; that is to say, in a room which was intended for Egyptian antiquities, and part of which now has been occupied with the Temple collection. On the ground-floor is a room at the end of the second Greek and Roman room, the room next to the one I have been mentioning, at the end of which you are obliged to go down- stairs to look at certain antiquities which are there ; the public must come back again the way they went down ; and, in fact, it is a basement which was never intended for exhibitions, but the trustees were obliged to use the room they had. 23. Do you not think that the room upon the left hand side, by which you enter the Museum, is a very unfit place for properly exhibiting works of art, from the nature of the light, which is inter- cepted by the columns of the porch? — It is ob- jectionable ; on the side, however, opposite to the windows there is sufficient light in general ; the other side is dark. I have suggsted that the busts on the north side should be put on brackets, and that all those objects which are on the side under the windows, and which cannot be seen, should be put under the busts ; but even that would be a poor contrivance, because those objects which are on the opposite side to the busts, have nothing to do with the busts. 24. Do not you think it would be more in har- mony with scientific instruction and arrangement, if the visitors, instead of entering at once upon a late period of Roman art, then proceeding into the Greek or Roman, and passing through Assyrian portals into the latest period of Egyptian art, should enter a saloon containing the earliest art, and so on, progressing to the higher and more perfect development of art? — If the Museum was not built, that would be the right way to build a new one, and to arrange, things in that manner ; but as it is, the, officers of the Museum have been obliged to make the best of the room, although feeling that it was not right; but they had no choice. 25. Therefore no scientific arrangement could be effected without ample space being afforded to the antiquarian department ? — Certainly not. 26. Presuming, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 26. Presuming, however, that this progressive advance was unnecessary, have you the means of providing accommodation, within the existing fabric, for the accumulations to which I have already referred ? — Certainly not. 27. You have on more than one occasion re- ferred, I believe, to the North Library as being available for antiquities in case you obtained space for the books round the New Reading-room ; did you not state in reply to a question that was put to you by Mr. Cockerell, before the National Gallery Site Commission, that you had space for books for 50 years, supposing the North Library to be given up to antiquities ? — I do not recollect having said so. 28. At question 1579 in the Minutes of Evi- dence on the National Gallery Site Commission, Mr. Cockerell asked you this question: "We have understood from you very clearly that all the existing departments now in the British Museum, except the Library are overflowing ? Tney are. — They require more space ? Yes. The Library, to speak accurately, is overflowed now as much as the rest, but there is a provision made for that which within a few weeks will be completed, and which will supply additional room to it for 50 years or more. — Do I rightly under- stand you to say, that in that case the portion of the old library towards the north would be dis- posable for antiquities ? Yes, if necessary " ? — Yes, " if necessary ; " so it is now. 29. Then you were asked this question : " You think that possibly a small space might be available for the purposes of antiquity? I believe the whole of one side of the north side may go to an- tiquities, and afford plenty of room for exhibiting prints with a fine north light." Am I to under- stand you to say, as this would almost appear to prove, that in case you obtained this space round the present reading-room, you would then, with- out counting the north library, have sufficient space for all the books for 50 years ? — That evi- dence was given when the central building, the new library, was already built ; and it was given after I had given an estimate of the number of volumes that that library would contain. When I was asked whether the north library could be made available for antiquities, I said, " Yes, if necessary," by removing the books ; but the esti- mate was given in before, of the number of books that the new library would contain, and therefore when I said that the new library would contain 800,000 volumes, or say a million, it was on the understanding that there should be placed in that library the additional number of .volumes from time to time purchased or given. If you put at once 300,000 volumes in it from the north library, the room would not of course serve for 50 years to come ; if you remove the books from the north library into it, you must prepare to build a library for the new acquisitions which it was calculated would be put in the new one intended for them. 30. Mr. Walpole.'] When you gave your answer to that particular question, you meant that there was room enough for the books at the present rate of increase for 40 years to come, if the present library were retained for that purpose ? — Exactly. 31. You did not mean that you had room for books for 40 years to come if the north library were taken away ?— Certainly not. 32. Chairman.'] Are not the books in the north library arranged and marked according to the special subjects that they are connected with, and would not their removal be attended with a great 0.96. deal of expense - and inconvenience, occupying a A. Panizzi, large amount of the time of the assistants in the Esq. library department? — Very great. The books ; are marked not according to the subjects exactly, 5 June but according to the place they occupy on the i860. shelves; but the subjects are placed on the shelves in juxtaposition with each other. For instance, there is all history, and then all histories of dif- ferent countries put together, far from physiology and far from mathematics. When I gave that answer to Mr. Cockerell, the new library was not quite completed ; it was very nearly so. If at the time it had been considered " necessary," which is the tenor of my answer, to remove all the books to the new library from the north library, it would have been done with comparatively little trouble, because it would have been only to take the num- bers exactly as they stand in the old library, and put them to the presses in the new one; the catalogues and press marks would have remained just as they were ; but now that the new library has been occupied and mapped out, if I may so say, for the different subjects, it would require not only to alter every one of the press marks in every one of the articles now in the north library, and every corresponding entry in the catalogues ; but it would require to alter all the press marks of the new library ; it would require, I dare say, four millions of numbers to be altered. 33. I believe I may say, that the antiquarians would be very much dissatisfied with the light which they would obtain in that north library, even presuming that it was available for their pur- poses ? — I believe that the feeling in the Depart- ment of Antiquities is, that they must have sky- lights for their sculptures. I do not say that I am of that opinion ; but that is their opinion. 34. As it is, the light that is there is very in- sufficient ; it is only a single side light, and that is very partial? — No; there are windows on both sides in the large room. In the previous sugges- tion that I made, that, "if necessary," that large room might be used for antiquities, it was con- templated to cut off part of the room, all the south side of it. If that was done, then there would be windows only on one side. 35. Referring to Mr. Carpenter's Department of Prints, will you inform the Committee what space Mr. Carpenter must require for the exhibition of prints, without including drawings? — I believe he has no room whatever. 36. He is obliged now, is he not, to exhibit in the department of another gentleman ?— First of all, he has been obliged to put three very large presses in the passage which leads from the great staircase to his own room, and to occupy one-third of the gangway ; then he has been obliged to put presses against a window, and there is a window less in that room than there was some years ago, and less than the architect intended. As it was supposed that it would be extremely satisfactory to the public if they could see some of the fine engravings and drawings of Mr. Carpenter's, who is the keeper of the prints, Mr. Jones, the keeper of the printed books, at my request consented that some of the engravings and the drawings should be exhibited in the King's Library, which was done ; but they are totally out of place ; they have nothing to do with the King's Library, and the light which they have is not such a light as such fine objects ought to have ; but also, in that case, want of space has forced the trustees to approve of it. 37. On the present site have you any means of a2 +- accommodating MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Panizzi, accommodating Mr. Carpenter with a room fit Esq. for the exhibition of the objects in his depart- - ment?— -If the Museum is to remain with all the 5 June present collections, certainly not. 1 860. 38. With regard to the zoological collections, I suppose I am right in assuming that they are almost as great sufferers as the antiquities, for want of space? — It will be seen amongst the Returns which have been made in No. 379, that that department, according to the report of the officers, is worse off than any other, and if the Committee were just to go up-stairs into the first room, where some of the mammalia are kept, they would find that they cannot be seen, and that they are two or three deep in the presses. 39. They are crowded together in a very un- seemly manner in the vestibule ? — They are ; then the report of the officers is, that they cannot pur- chase some of the large specimens which they want, because they have not room to place them ; and, farther than that, that they have been obliged to refuse presents because they did not know where to put them. 40. The osteological collections are also, I be- lieve, withdrawn from exhibition, as well as the specimens preserved in spirits?— Yes; and as to the osteological collections, that is a very important matter. It seems that the Museum is, perhaps, the only great institution in the world that has the very bones of a variety of individual animals of which the skins are exhibited, which is a matter of the greatest importance for naturalists ; but if naturalists want to see one of these skeletons, which are kept in boxes down stairs, in a very inconvenient room, they must apply almost as a sort of favour to the keeper to show them ; whilst the public at large are utterly excluded from seeing the collection, important as it is. 41. I believe that the insect room, from its very crowded and dark condition, is quite unfit for students? — That is the worst room in the house. 42. In the Fossil Department, I think, Mr. Waterhouse considers that he would require another room; and Mr. Maskelyne, I under- stand, in the Mineralogical Department, also con- siders that he would require another room of the same dimensions as one of the rooms which he has now ; or that in case he gave up one of his rooms to Mr. Waterhouse, he would then require two rooms of the same size as those which are employed at present for the mineralogical collec- tion? — I have never heard that exactly from either of them ; but this I have heard, that Mr. Waterhouse wants room ; and I understand from Professor Owen, even more than what Mr. Water- house himself considers would be enough. But that is nothing in comparison to the zoology wants. I hear that Mr. Maskelyne wants less room than his colleagues, and that Mr. Waterhouse reasons on the ground of having only small objects added. But if there was to be added a mastodon, or a megatherium, or a great saurian, like those which are there, then he certainly would not have suffi- cient space, even if he had what he now supposes enough, added. 43. Are you aware that it has been mentioned as to each of those gentlemen, that if they had another room it would be sufficient for their wants for many years ? — I am not aware of that. 44. There is one room, however, which is in- tended for exhibition, and which contains a great number of very interesting objects in the Fossil Department, which is now occupied by the studies of Mr. Maskelyne and Mr. Woodward ? — Yes ; and that is again because there is no other space. When the Superintendent of Natural History was appointed, Mr. Woodward, who is an assistant, and who, as such, had no right to a study to him- self, had to be turned out of a study which he occupied, and Professor Owen got it. Then Mr. Woodward was put into one of the bays, as they are called, in that room to which you refer, which would be a public one if it could be used. The Department of Mineralogy being created, and a keeper being appointed, who had no study what- ever, he was put into another of these bays ; then they wanted some working room, and some of the other bays had to be adapted to that pur- pose. There are five bays, I believe, from which the public are utterly excluded, as they are occu- pied either as studies or as working rooms. 45. I believe it was determined by the trustees that studies should be provided for those officers over the print room, which would release the room now occupied, and enable the collections contained in the room to be exhibited to the public ? — The trustees determined to have those studies ; and when the determination was come to, the question of the increase of space for all the Museum was submitted to the Treasury, and there were certain resolutions passed; I forget the date. 46. If you will turn to the minutes of the standing committee of the trustees on the 12th of December 1857, you will see that it was resolved [that " accommodation should be provided for the officers of the Natural History Department on the roof of the print room; secondly, that the foregoing resolution be carried into effect with the least possible delay ; and,' thirdly, that a sum not exceeding 19,000/. be added to the building estimates for the purpose of building those studies;" how came it, under these circumstances, that this resolution on the part of the standing committee of trustees was never carried out ? — The date of that resolution is the 12th of December 1857 ; on the 22d of January 1858, the resolutions were passed to which I was alluding before, by which it was proposed to the Government to build on the north side of the Museum, to meet, its immediate wants ; but it was also supposed possible that at some future time it might be necessary to transfer some of the collections elsewhere, in which case, however, the trustees said, " what we propose now, would always be useful." Those resolutions were sent to the Treasury, and, after this had been done, the committee of natural history pressed the stand- ing committee to apply to the Treasury to be authorised to build those studies, before a vote of Parliament; and the trustees did apply to the Trea- sury ; but then the Treasury having received the resolutions passed in January 1858, sent an answer, dated the 28th of April 1858, to the effect that, having received those resolutions, " It appears to my Lords to be undesirable to incur expense for the partial accommodation of one of the departments of the Museum, until the general question of providing additional space either by the transfer of any of the collections to some other place, as indicated in the fourth resolution, or by the acquisition of additional land as proposed by Mr. Smirke, shall have been considered by Her Majesty's Government; their Lordships there- fore direct me to suggest a postponement, for the present, of the proposal for the erection of new studies for the officers of the Department of Natural History." I laid this letter before the standing com- mittee ; SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. mittee; and the standing committee ordered that the building of the studies should be postponed accordingly, and it was postponed; that is the reason why they have not been built. 47. I see that, on the standing committee, on the 8th of May 1858, Sir Philip Egerton moved a resolution to this effect : " That these studies ought to be built, and are absolutely necessary ;" but that resolution was negatived ? — It was. 48. Mr. Walpole.~\ In consequence of that reso- lution which the trustees came to, at the end of 1857, or rather the resolutions which the trustees came to at the end of*1857 and the commencement of 1858, are you aware whether the Government of that day did not propose, or give notice of a proposition, that this subject, as well as the subject of providing room for the National Gallery, should be referred to a Select Committee ?■ — I beliftve it is so. 49. And that Select Committee was never ap- pointed ? — I do not know that it was. 50. Chairman.'] To return to the subject of zoology, I see that you have considered the feasi- bility of running a gallery over the cases in the ornithological gallery, and you presume that a gallery of that description, even as the room now stands, would give you space for seven years ? — Yes ; but it was one of those expedients to which I was driven, as I was driven to the expedient of suggesting the removal of the books, and giving up the north side to the antiquities ; but all these plans are bad. I also believe that the building of studies over the print room is not what ought to be done ; but if there be no other space, it is better to do it there than not to do it at all. 51. Mr. U alpole.~\ It is. a mere makeshift? — Yes ; it is money thrown away, and there has been plenty thrown away in that manner. 52. Chairman.] Have you remarked the mode that is adopted for exhibition in the College of Surgeons? — Yes, some time ago. 53. Did you remark the great economy of space that was obtained by the mode in which the collections there are exhibited ? —Yes ; but we must well consider the two institutions ; if you have galleries, first of all, I am not certain, that because they answer at the College of Sur- geons, they will answer at the Museum, as far as light is concerned. Next, I cannot understand how it is possible, in a place visited by thousands, as the Museum is, for people to go up stairs of very small construction, and along small galleries, to look at the specimens exhibited ; no doubt for scientific men, who want to study, say osteology, it would be much better if it was in galleries over presses in one of the rooms on the upper floor than in the basement ; but for the public it is not a proper arrangement; the public ought , to have room and space in which to go about at their own leisure, and see what they want to see. 54. Presuming it were possible to raise the height of the rooms containing the scientific^ collections to the height of the room in the College of Surgeons, do not you think that the objection which you have just urged would be ob- viated ; and for this reason, that the portion of the collections that would be exhibited in the galleries would be that portion which would the least attract the attention of what I may call the sight- seeing public ; for instance, in the Ornithological Gallery you would exhibit in the cases below stuffed birds in their skins, which generally at- tract the attention of the passers by. In the next gallery above that, you would have the osteo- . 0.96. logical specimens, which would, in fact, be only A. Panizzi, visited by scientific persons, who would form a Esq. very small minority ; or do you think, for — — instance, that the public at large would care 5 ^" ne very much to go up into galleries to wander past and look at a series of skeletons ? — That I think touches the principle for which the British Museum has been established. If it is merely for scientific men, they would do perfectly well in a room with skins preserved in presses, to be handed out as they were wanted ; but it is a public exhibition ; it is for the public and for their instruction ; it is not only for scientific men ; it is not a school ; the gallery which you propose would do for osteology in an university, but I do not think it would do for a public exhibition in a National Museum. With regard to raising the roof of the second floor, that has been contemplated, because, as you will have seen, it was suggested to build a third storey, which would have rendered it necessary to take off the present roof, and build a floor there, and then put a roof over that. In the present state of the Museum it would be necessary to take all the specimens from the Bird Boom, and to put them into the room where the mineralogy is, as well as you could, that is to say, filling up all the space which serves now for the public to walk about. Then you would raise the roof, and bring back again to the room, the height of which had been raised, the objects which you had taken to another gallery whilst the raising of the ceiling and roof was going on, and then you would have to do the same thing on the other side, by putting temporarily the mineralogy in this new-built room, and taking it back afterwards to its room so raised. The consequence would be that you would close the Museum, at least those exhibitions, for years. I am certain, having calculated it, that it would take six years from first to last to accomplish all this. 55. Would not the same objection apply to any removal ? — No. If you build a proper repository, and then remove the collections into it, there they are permanently ; but in case of having to raise the roof, you must take away the birds, for instance, and put them in another room, which must be closed, as there is no more space for the visitors to walk about, and, therefore, you lose two large exhibitions. Then you would have to take those birds, after the room is got ready, back again to where they were, and then you are to take, on the other side that mineralogy, and put it in the Bird Room, and after that part, where the mineralogy was, was raised to the proper height, the mineralogy would have to go back again. 56. Assuming that you were to enlarge the Museum by an extension to the north, would it not be possible to make that extension of a very moderate description, and to place your collec- tions ad interim in that extension, whilst you were raising the galleries of the natural history department to the height I have indicated ? — Certainly ; that is supposing that you have room where to put those collections, if you have room. What I said had reference to the present condi- tion of things. 57. Did not Dr. Gray, in 1854, advocate gal- leries of this description? — He advocated gal- leries in the room, which is the central saloon where the mammalia are ; he suggested that, and the trustees said there was not room there, nor light, and therefore for that reason it was not approved. At a subsequent period the galleries were suggested to be put in the large, or rather A3 long MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Panizzi, long Bird Room, and there certainly they would Esq. be less objectionable ; and it was of those galleries that I spoke before, when I stated that the public 5 June W oukl have to go up small stairs to see the objects 1 860. placed in small galleries. 58. I see that Dr. Gray contemplates placing in those galleries specimens which are chiefly re- sorted to by the more scientific visitors and stu- dents, which is what I suggested to you in a pre- ceding question, and under those circumstances he seems to be of the same opinion as I am, that there would not be that concourse of people in the galleries merely to visit those more scientific specimens which would not have the' attraction of the specimens below ? — There would be, in fact, two arrangements ; an arrangement of objects for the public, and another arrangement of objects for scientific persons. I want them to be all together in one series, and I want the public to see every- thing that they wish to see ; that is what I under- stand a national collection or national exhibition to be. 59. Even supposing you were to obtain suffi- cient space for small collections of natural history, there would still remain, I presume, the necessity for additional space for the exhibition of the larger mammalia? — Certainly; and the officers themselves say in their Report, as I had the honour of stating before, that now they cannot purchase them, or even accept them as gifts, because they are so bulky, and there is no space to place them in. 60. Do you consider that it is necessary to exhi- bit specimens of every known species, for example, of birds?— Undoubtedly I think so, in a great country like this ; in a great Museum for Lon- don, it ought to be done as perfectly as it can be ; and if it were possible to collect every species of bird and variety in the world, they ought to be seen in England. 61. That is, to be seen by the public? — Yes. 62. To be exhibited?— Yes. 63. In your opinion, is it the object of the Museum to provide amusement for the general spectator, or is it to be a repertory where the scientific inquirer may find every object neces- sary to illustrate the particular study that he is engaged upon, or should it be both ? — Both. 64. In the first place, do you think that the exhibition of every species of bird, for instance, would not rather bewilder than edify the general spectator ; and would no't a typical Museum, dis- playing the types of birds, far more strongly arrest his attention and fix distinctions in his mind, than immense and multifarious collections with distinctions hardly perceptible, except, per- haps, to the most scientific men? — I think it is of great importance to show to the people who 'go to the Museum as visitors, what there is to be seen in the world, even in the way of varieties simply, and not only species ; if it is to be only an exhibition of types, then the Museum, and the officers who have increased it, as they have done, have all been wroHg hitherto. There is no question, that if you take only the types of birds, and exhibit those, and then take such skins as scientific men want, and put them flat in drawers with some camphor, it was of no use to have a large room for exhibiting so many birds ; if you are to keep skins of fishes in drawers, of course you can put them in a very small compass ; but that does not seem to me to be what the British Mu- seum should be for public exhibition, and as it ought to be in this country. 65. Assuming the British Museum to be a repertory for the scientific inquirer, would it not be far more convenient to men of science to have the specimens in drawers, where they could handle and examine them, rather than set up artificially, and perhaps improperly ? — That is a question of principle. If it is made only for those who study osteology or study ichthyology; if you want to see only the skins of those animals, to see their characters, and determine what they are, of course that can be done, and the Museum in that case is ample for everything ; but all the officers of the Natural History department have complained that they have no room for exhibition. I understand, and I supposed hitherto that this was universally admitted, that the British Museum is to be a public exhibition of the finest collections in the world fci all branches of human knowledge. 66. The object of the exhibition must be one of two things, for instruction or for amusement, or for both ? — It is for both. 67. Then, to return to my former question, do you not think that, the exhibition of a great num- ber of specimens, with scarcely any distinction whatever, so that the scientific observer can hardly detect any difference between them, is calculated to bewilder, not to amuse, and certainly not to instruct ? — I am certain that it will amuse those who have the proper faculties cultivated for such studies ; it will also instruct them. A man has read in a book that there are such and such varieties of species, and I think he has a right just to go to the British Museum and say, " I want to look at specimens, and see in what the difference consists ;" and if he does not find them in the British Museum, the nation does not give him the means for finding what he wants, and except he is a great scientific man, he will never see them at all. 68. Have you ever heard it stated by some of the most scientific men of the present day that the present galleries of the British Museum would afford, as they are, sufficient space for the most instructive and scientific exhibition -of type speci- mens, with the exception of the large mammalia, and that a gallery for them is the only necessary addition that is required ? — Yes, for instruction and for scientific men; but then you bring the British JV1 useum to a museum for a university or for an hospital, where comparative anatomy is studied. What is wanted for that, and to make the British Museum itself more useful is to apply the same principle to the library and to the col- lections of natural history as well as of fine art ; to have three of four museums containing types only, in different parts of London, in the neigh- bourhood of the people who can go to visit them, and who are never able to go, in this large city, to the British Museum ; as to books, to have libraries where the public might have 50,000 or 60,000 volumes of the most useful works in all branches of human knowledge at their disposal ; and if you think it is necessary that the people should learn to draw, there ought to be accom- modation for casts from marbles to draw from; and that would be instructing, seriously, the people at large, and enable them, going back now to natural history, to come to the Museum, and see our great exhibitions with great advantage to themselves and great amusement ; and very good amusement, as well as instruction, it would be for the people to have such means of valuing such collections. 69. Which, in your opinion, is the highest object SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. object of the British Museum, amusement or in- struction ? — The two can hardly be separated ; if you ask whether the object of the British Museum is for the public at large, or only for scientific men, I am for the public at large. First of all, they include the scientific men ; but the scientific men do not include the public at large. 70. Assuming that scientific men say the exhi- bition of all these specimens of these various species is rather, prejudicial to their investiga- tions than otherwise, and that they would prefer to have a smaller amount exhibited, and the rest placed in cases where they could handle and observe them, and that such arrangements were of infinitely more value for scientific pursuits ; do you think that sufficient amusement could not be pro- vided for the public except by exhibiting every single known specimen ? — When any scientific man comes and expresses an opinion, and gives his reasons, in the case which you have been sup- posing, I should be glad to hear what he has to say, and in my humble way try to state my reasons for differing from him ; but if you were to put the question to Professor Owen, who is avowedly the best judge of these things perhaps in Europe, he would be able to answer satisfactorily that the British Museum ought not to be confined to a few, but that it ought to be made useful for all. He, in his plan which is in the returns before the Committee, suggested both. He suggested a col- lection such as I have been trying to describe ; but he suggests, moreover, particular rooms where types only should be exhibited. 71. Take, for instance, the collection of beetles; do you think that the public could derive any great amusement from seeing the exhibition of every single known beetle in creation? — If you will excuse me, -I limited myself to speaking of birds ; if you come to coleoptera and insects, I think not ; first of all, in that case, it is quite enough I think to exhibit types ; the question is only what should be the type you will exhibit ; will you exhibit types of species only, or types of genera? that is a question which is above my comprehension, except that of course you will do with much less room. I do not think it is neces- sary to exhibit every variety of the smallest animals ; but I think when you come to animals which the public at large can value, you ought to exhibit them. 72. I believe at this moment, referring to the ornithological collection, where Professor Owen considers the greatest deficiency exists with regard to space, at the most he calculates that there is only half the number of the known species of birds exhibited ? — Yes. 73. But in that calculation is it not pretty well known that almost all the large specimens of birds are exhibited, and that it is only the more minute specimens which are not exhibited? — I doubt that. I understand that there is a great number of others, if I read his report correctly, and not the small ones only, not exhibited. 74. Sir Philip Egerton.~\ Have you, at any time, .been engaged in conducting scientific in- vestigations in any branch of natural science ? — Never. 75. Chairman.] I think you estimated, in your Report of June the 10th, 1858, that the cost of the ground and buildings necessary to hold all the collections would be rather over than under 800,000?., presuming all the collections to be kept together ? — Yes. 76: You calculated that the whole of those 0.96. i860. parts of Great Russell-street, Charlotte-street, A. Panizzi, Bedford-square, and Montague-street, would have Esq.- to be purchased ? — I did. 77. I wish to know upon what grounds you 5 J u »e made that suggestion in regard to Great Russell- street ? — If the honourable Chairman has present to his mind the locality, he will understand it im- mediately. If he will look on the west side of the Museum, that is, that part of Great Russell- street that goes on* towards Tottenham Court-road^ he will see that there are five houses.' 78. Sir George Grey.] You refer now to Plan 19, in Return 379 ?— Yes. 79. Chairman.'] With regard to the Zoological collections, Mr. Smirke, on the 9th of November 1857, drew up a plan for the trustees, by which he proposed to purchase 16 houses on the south side of Montague -place ? — Yes. 80. I think those 16 houses would cost, ac- cording to his calculation, from 50,000 1, to 60,000 1. ?— About that. 81. He proposed to erect a building on that which he estimated at 110,000 /. ?— He did. 82. He calculated upon obtaining 55,000 super- ficial feet, exclusive of the space on the basement storey? — Yes. 83. Whereupon you suggested that this plan • should be extended a little to the west, thus gain- ing 14,000 feet additional ? — Yes. 84. The price of the ground which you pro- posed to join to Mr. Smirke's plan was 36,000 Z., and the estimate for the building 22,000 I. ? — • About that. 85. In the whole making 58,000 /. ?— Yes. 86. The whole amount of Mr. Smirke's plan, including your addition, or Mr. Smirke's second plan, would then amount to about the sum of 238,000/., including all the buildings?— It would. , 87. That being spread over five years would make an annual charge of about 45,000 /. per annum ? — Yes ; you may say 50,000 I. a year. 88. Mr. Smirke, I think, says that his plan need not be carried out in its totality, but that it might be divided, and only a portion executed from time to time ? — He says so. 89. But the whole of the present zoological, mineralogical, and botanical collections occupy at this moment 49,992 feet ? — So he states. 90. This proposal of Mr. Smirke's would obtain 65,000 superficial feet ? — It would seem so. 91. Dr. Gray, however, who is the person chiefly concerned as regards the Zoological de- partment, says that all he would require, pre- suming that you did not erect galleries, or any- thing else, would be twice as much space as he has now, namely, 29,000 feet for the Zoological department? — I believe you will find that Dr. Gray says it would require twice the space he has now to exhibit the collections which he has now ; but he also says, that the collections of the British Museum ought to be twice in extent what they are now, which would require four times as much space as he has now. 92. That is for future extensions ? — He says that he ought now to have twice as much space as he has. 93. That would give him a very considerable margin, even presuming that you did not economise in any degree your present space ? — You will ob- serve that the suggestion of Mr. Smirke was to give accommodation not only to the Natural His- tory collection as far as possible, but to the An- tiquities, and the general idea was that there should be a gallery, which you will see in Plan a 4 No. 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Pattizzi, No. 21, between the present building and the pro- Eaq. posed building, lighted by a skylight, which would be for the antiquities. It was also intended that 5 June the ground floor of the additional building, which i860. j s [ n that same plan, and which bounds Montague- place, should be for the antiquities, and the upper part for the natural history ; but when the officers of the department of Antiquities heard of this plan, they were up in arms, and you will see a report in which it is said that things would be much better left as they are, rather than to have such light as they would have, which would not be a skylight. It was, in reference to that report that I said, a short time back, I was not quite of their opinion as to the necessity of having only rooms lighted from above ; according to their report, it is much better, they say, to leave things as they are ; I am not of that opinion. 94. I am aware of what Dr. Gray's require- ments are. I find that Mr. Waterhouse also says, that if you make a skylight to the three centre rooms in the present department of the mineralo- gical and geological collections, for ten years he will have sufficient space by raising his cases, un- less mammalia or huge skeletons of extinct animals arrive, which Mr. Waterhouse does not contem- plate there is the slightest probability of? — So Mr. Waterhouse says. 95. You alluded, a short time ago, to the gen- tlemen in the Antiquities department who cried out with one accord against the notion of an ex- tension to the north. You are probably aware that Mr. Hawkins has expressed his opinion very strongly, that in order to exhibit in a scientific manner that collection of antiquities, the exten- sion ought to be towards the west ; do you concur in that opinion ? — It depends upon what is to be done for the whole of the Museum. Mr. Haw- kins thinks of his department, and very pro- perly so. 96. Does not the west lie most contiguous to his collections ? — Certainly. 97. Would not the selection of the north side, presuming Mr. Smirke's plan to be applied to the collections of antiquities, involve an intervening space devoted to other objects than antiquities, and thus make a break, as it were, between the two parts on the first floor ?■ — -I think not ; the Print Room is above that ; this is the ground floor ; the print-room floor is out of that. 98. I mean, would you not have to cross the Printed Book Room ? — rThe Galleries of Anti- quities would have to be taken across the west end of the Printed Book department. 99. Are there any windows on the west side of the present Greek Galleries with which you would interfere in case you extended your collections in that direction ? — You would have to leave space for what is called the Egyptian Gallery ; you would have to leave space for those windows which are on the west; the Elgin Room, the Lycian Room, and the Assyrian Room are lighted from the top. 100. Consequently there are no windows that would be interfered with, by erecting galleries lighted from the top, towards the west ? — Not for those rooms, but you would have to keep a certain distance — I do not know how far — from the Egyp- tian Antiquities Room, that long room on the west of the Museum — the main building — which is lighted by windows on both sides, and, therefore, you would have to keep a certain distance, so as not to obscure all those windows; how far I cannot tell; but if you will look to the first plan, and to the room where the Egyptian antiquities are, you will see that it is lighted by windows on both sides. 101. Presuming that the space marked C inPlan No. 1 is left open, which probably it would be, for the sake of air, and by which you would obtain light for the Egyptian Galleries over the North Assyrian Gallery, and presuming you extended your collections to the west, alongside the present Greek and Elgin Galleries, you would not then interfere with any light from the windows on the west side, as those galleries arc lighted from the top ? — No ; but I do not know whether you would not have to leave room, not to interfere with the light of the galleries of the Egyptian Antiquities.' I do not know whether the space is enough be- tween the main building and the outside, say of the Elgin Gallery, so as not to obscure the light, if you were to raise there a high wall or some high building. 102. But the present Greek Galleries and Elgin Galleries do not interfere with the light of the Egyptian Galleries, and I presume that the ex- , tension of parallel galleries to the west would not interfere with the light ? — If they be lighted from the top, and kept as low as those you have mentioned. 103. Do you not think that it is highly desir- able that for the enlightened study of ancient monuments, the works of various schools should be so arranged as to admit of being placed in chronological order, and easily compared one with another? — I believe that that same question I have substantially answered before. As I under- stand it, no doubt if the British M useum did not exist, and we were going to build one for anti- quities, what you suggest would be the right thing to do; but, as it is, there has been spent a large sum of money, and as far as it is possible, it is ne- cessary to adapt what exists to our wants as well as we can. 104. Your original estimate for purchasing the whole of that block near the British Museum would enable you at all events to carry out that scientific arrangement by merely transposing a few of the collections ? — Yes, by removing some of them to other parts; but without the whole plan before one, one cannot say what would be necessary to be done ; generally there would be alteration required. 105. Assuming it to be desirable to exhibit the separate schools of sculpture side by side for the purpose of comparison, does the north or the west side of the British Museum furnish, in your judgment, the greatest facilities for the construc- tion of galleries parallel with the present galleries? — I have never considered that question. I do not think there is any difference ; you may build galleries on the one side or the other just as easily, as it seems to me ; there is much more room on the west side, and that space parallel to the present galleries ; not so the north. 106. Which of the houses, those in Montague- street or those in Charlotte-street, would be the most cheaply purchased ? — I do not recollect, but I believe those in Montague-place would be the cheapest, because there is less room I believe, and. then when you come to the west side you come to the houses in the square, which I believe would cost more. 107. Would it not be desirable that the whole series of sculptures should be exhibited on one floor ? — I think it is desirable ; but then you must build a new museum ; but I also think, as to the small SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 9 small objects, if we had space up-stairs in the present building, they might do very well there, just as is done with the Egyptian Antiquities ; you have the larger objects down-stairs, and the smaller ones above. 108. I have heard that damage is likely to arise to many of the objects of antiquity in the basement ; there are down there at present terra- cotta vases, cinerary urns, and alabaster works of art, which are very likely to suffer from the damp and the wet that there is in that basement? — Those are the very objects that I alluded to before, when I said that they were placed in situations where they ought not to be ; but beyond the large objects, those that are small could, in my opinion, in case of necessity, be put on the second floor ; for instance, all the objects which are in the room I have described before, to which access is obtained only by going down stairs, and then to come up again, I think they could be easily removed to the second floor. I believe that the busts might be removed to the second floor ; I believe that most of the Townley Gallery objects could very well be removed up-stairs ; as to the larger objects, they ought to be matter for serious consideration, because to remove large statues which are put together with bolts, and in a man- , ner that we do not know, it is difficult to guard against possible injury. I think those ought to be be left where they are as much as possible, whilst the smaller ones might be removed up-stairs safely. 109. You have, I believe, looked over the report which Mr. Hawkins drew up, and pre- sented to the Trustees. It appears to me, from that report, that the amount of space he requires to give a thorough philosophical arrangement to the department of Antiquities, and to provide space for those antiquities which are not now exhibited, would be, comparatively speaking, of no very great extent ; he calculates, I think, that he would be able to make suitable arrangements for the department of Antiquities, and all those col- lections that are at present unexhibited, by the extension of galleries nearly as far as the gardens in the rear of the houses in Charlotte-street ? — As I said before, he considers only his collections and his department ; but it will never do to con- sider one department separate from the others, if everything is to be kept in Bloomsbury ; the natural history departments ought to be considered at the same time. But that is not enough ; you must provide not only for what you have now, but for what you may have ; and, speaking of the department of printed books, which, no doubt, has room now, that space also will be occupied in the course of years ; and then, if you build galleries round the library for other objects, and put other objects into them, how will you extend the library when you have no more room in the present one ? You must do one of two things ; you must either go across these new galleries to fetch the books from an immense distance, at great inconvenience, or move these things, which you put there now, in order to make room for books at a future time. It seems to me that we ought not to provide for the Museum for the life of a man, but for the life of the nation. We ought to consider the future, and the difficulty we are in now is because that has not been considered before. 110. Would you commence, therefore, by pro- viding buildings, going to a very considerable expense, for the collections that have not arrived, and probably never may arrive? — No; but I would not occupy the space in the manner that 0.96. seems to be suggested, which would certainly pre- A. Panizzi, vent the extension of the library round the Esq. library itself. If the Museum continues, and printing continues, you are certain to have an 5 J une addition of books ; these are not possible contin- ' 86o. gencies, but certainties. 111. With regard to this large increase of space that you demand, do you not think that in pro- viding accommodations, particularly for objects of art and sculpture, that the rooms ou^ht to be accommodated to the works for which they are intended, rather than that the works should be accommodated to the rooms, which are perhaps not suitable for them ? — Perfectly so ; and that is the reason why I wanted to acdommodate the galleries of natural history to natural history as it is, and not to diminish the collections and to have a small room ; I want the coat made to the man, and not the man made to the coat ; you have now to provide not only for the collec- tions which we have been mentioning, but for studies, and not only studies for officers, but studies for students and for men who come to look at insects, and who are obliged to go to that room which you have been mentioning before, where the officers are at their work, and which is most inconvenient in every respect, as there are no other means of giving those insects out to students to examine well. There ought to be attached to each department a room, such as the reading room has, for the library, as a place where students might go and work. We have been obliged to turn out the formatore and to turn out the models and the casts, and pay rent, as there is no room in the Museum. Then there is no room to put such objects as are worth- less or false, or not decent to exhibit ; and then there ought to be conveniencies. I must allude to this subject, however unpleasant it may be ; it is a subject which excitas very just dissatis- faction, upon the part of those who come to work there, except for readers, who have excellent ac- commodation in the new reading room building ; for the public at large, there is not a place to which they can retire anywhere ; they complain and say that a room ought to be built for the purposes here hinted at. In addition to this, Mr. Maske- lyne says, that he wants a laboratory, and this laboratory must have fire and other conveniencies necessary for his researches. Then a plan is sug- gested of having lectures, and if you are to have lectures, you must have proper theatres and rooms. I only mention this in order that you should not consider only the department of antiquities as it is, and its present wants, or any other department as it is, and its present wants, but a general con- sideration should be given to what is wanted in a large museum like the British Museum. 112. Am I to understand you to say, assuming that all the collections were to remain intact, upon the present spot, you would consider it necessary at once to purchase, to build, and to occupy the whole of that block that you contem- plated in your scheme ? — As much as might be necessary. If Professor Owen and the naturalists are right in their reports, and if the collections are to be kept as they are, not only would it be necessary to build all that, but it would not be enough ; and therefore I cannot say what may be necessary until you have fixed what you will keep at the Museum. 113. Assuming that the heads of departments, and that professional men generally, consider that Mr. Smirke's plan for the extension to the B north, 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Panizzi, north, would provide ample accommodation for Esq. all the natural history collections likely to come to the Museum for a very considerable number 5 June f years, and that a slight extension to the i860. west would provide, according to the antiqua- rians, ample space for all the antiquity collec- tions which they have now, or which are likely to come ; would you consider that we should be justified in recommending an expenditure of so large a sum as 800,000 /. in the purchase of land, when the advisability of the purchase may rest upon the sole testimony of Professor Owen ? — My estimate was not for the purchase of land only ; the 800,000 /. would be for land and buildings. The question then is, whether the estimates given by the officers of the Museum, and particularly by Professor Owen, are esti- mates on which we may rely or not. If those who differ from him are able to satisfy the Com- mittee that his plan is an extravagant one, of course they will do so ; but with the opinion that I entertain of Professor Owen, and the reputation which he enjoys, if there are not very strong reasons given for differing from him, I shall cer- tainly think that it, is safer to follow such an opinion as Professor Owen's than that of anybody else. 114. Sir George Greg.] What is your own opinion with regard to the plan recommended in Mr. Smirke's Report of the 9th November 1857 ; would that adequately provide for such an exten- sion of the Museum as, with your knowledge of its requirements, you think necessary for the pur- pose of making it a generally useful exhibition ? — No ; I have mentioned a number of things which are not provided for at all in' that plan. There is no idea of providing either means of ex- hibiting engravings or drawings, or medals, nor for any of the other requirements which I have just mentioned. 115. With reference to those plans which are annexed to the Return 379, what is the least amount of extension that you are convinced will be necessary to attain that object ? — If the col- lections are all to remain in Bloomsbury, .and pro- perly exhibited ; if it be determined to keep the national Museum there, I think, undoubtedly, the best way will be to begin, but only as a begin- ning, by building on the north side in the manner or about the manner that Mr. Smirke has sug- gested, and go to the west in the manner that the gentlemen of the antiquities department suggest. 116. Mr. Walpole.] And then, as you want more room, go to the east ? — Yes ; but what I want to impress particularly upon the minds of the Committee is - this, that they must not believe that it is merely necessary to have a small begin- ning, and to provide only for what is contem- plated in Mr. Smirke's plan, for they will have to provide for much more. 117. Sir George Greg.] Do you think it is essential to go the extent of the plan, No. 19, annexed to this Return ? — To buy all the houses round. 118. Would your plan ultimately, of necessity, embrace all that scheme ? — Yes ; the only diffi- culty that I feel is, thaf I believe even all that would not be enough for the Museum ; but nothing less would do. 119. Mr. Walpole.] That plan would be neces- sary, to obtain a proper extension of space, in order to accommodate the collections in the Museum, assuming that those collections are not to be broken up ? — Yes. 120. Do you mean that the whole of that space is required immediately, or that it will be required in the course of time ? — It will be required in the course of time, but immediately much more will be required, as it seems to me, than is supposed, from what I hear; I believe that immediately much more will be required. 121. Supposing that Parliament were to sanc- tion an extension of the buildings, and the space for the collections in the British Museum, you might spread that extension over a series of years, might you not, without detriment to the collec- tions? — Not many years, because of course we keep increasing every year; we are already in arrear now, and if we keep on increasing the col- lections, we shall never get over the difficulty; and, moreover, I believe it is the opinion of those who understand this matter better than I do, as far as they have seen the Museum buildings, that it is much more economical, if it is deter- mined to build, to build not bit by bit, but to have a plan made, and to build all that is requisite, in order not to be forced to make shifts. 122. Sir George Greg.] Does not that apply still more strongly to the purchase of land ? — Yes ; I think it would be a very good opportunity to pur- chase the land, if Parliament are determined to keep all the collections in Bloomsbury, because if they to purchase the whole of the houses round the Museum, there would be a saving. I under- stand that the leases will fall in, and that the trustees would keep the houses in their own hands, and, after having made a plan of the build- ings, apply it as they wanted it ; but it ought to be applied upon a much larger scale at once, than seems to be contemplated now. 123. Mr. Walpole.] I will assume that the whole of the space round the Museum is to be purchased for the benefit of the Museum. I will assume that a plan for the buildings is laid out systematically; and I will assume that the two together, the space and the erection of the build- ings, will cost what is estimated, 800,000/., or even a higher amount; I should then like to know over what period of years you think that 800,000/. would be spread, and how much would be required immediately? — I have never con- sidered this question, so as to be able to give an answer, that I might not afterwards have to modify, but I should think that you ought to build half of it in four years. 124. Then you would require 400,000/. in the first four years ? — You would require more than that ; you would require to purchase all the land, and I should estimate it at 240,000 /., say 250,000 /. ; and you ought moreover to spend half of the money at once in building, to provide for those two great departments, and for all the minor ones which I have mentioned ; some of them of great import- ance ; for example, a room for exhibiting medals, for exhibiting engravings, studies for the students in the different departments, and convenience for them and for the public; a laboratory for the keeper of the mineralogy collection, and so on. 125. Do you include in the purchase money of the land the purchase of the lessees' interest ?— Yes ; it would include all by taking the property at 30 years' purchase; I understand that 30 years would be too much for the land only; but it would come to that, considering the compensation to be paid to tenants, and a number of expenses to be expected. 126. Then the immediate outlay would be for the SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 11 the purchase of the ground, the 'landlords' interest, and the lessees' interest ? — Yes. 127. Amounting to 250,000/. ?— Yes. 128. But until the lessees in the houses give up their occupations, it would not be a loss to the country to that extent ? — For that part which you did' not want immediately ; but I think you want immediately much more than is thought of. 129. What do you think would be the imme- diate outlay that would be required, assuming that the ground landlord would sell your interest immediately all round, or sell you his interest in the course of years, by a contract to be entered into with, him, so that you should purchase from time to time such of the lessees' interests as you required, and then raise a building upon that part of the land which you think would be im- mediately needed ? — Within four years I dare say it would come to half a million. 130. Five hundred thousand pounds would be the expenditure during the first four years? — Yes, and then you would have part of the land for the future. But, as it seems to me, the question remains untouched whether, even with all this, the site would be enough for the British Museum ; that is another question. 131. Sir Philip Ecjerton.\ Did you not say that it is the duty of the present generation to provide for the life of the nation, and not for the life of an individual ? — Yes, to make provision, so that you may so increase the British Museum as may be wanted in future. 132. Eventually you contemplate, I think, oc- cupying all the space, (if it be now purchased) for the library ? — I cannot conceive such a library as would contain five or six millions of books ; but I should think that in a reasonable way pro- vision ought to be made for the library. 133. Does not that calculation depend upon a calciilation of the time during which the nation would exist ? — It does ; you will see that by not having done this before "that great troubles arise now. If the National Gallery were not placed where it is placed, so that you cannot enlarge it, except at an enormous expense, perhaps there would not be the difficulties that there are about that ; and if the Museum of Economical Geology had not been planted in one of the most thickly- built parts of London, and the most expensive, it would have been better ; therefore, I say, that it is prudent to foresee what additions may be neces- sary during the course of a great many years, and not to consider our life only, but the life of the country. 134. Do you contemplate the occupation of a portion of this land, if not the whole of it, eventu- ally for your library ? — No. 135. In what direction is the library to extend in the life of the nation ? — They ought to leave in this plan reasonable room for the library. 136. Then you do contemplate the occupation of part of this land eventually for the library ? — Certainly. 137. Do you see any reason why, in the mean- time, that land should not be devoted to other objects ? — If you have rooms built for other ob- jects they will not do for the library ; and if you do' not find room for the other objects, the con- sequence will be that the library will never be enlarged. I take the library as an instance, as it is in the centre ; but you will find that these departments, being so close to each other, and confined, interfere very much with each other. The antiquities interfere with the natural history, a 96. and the natural history interferes with other de- partments. 138. I understood you to say that the present space might suffice for a period of fifty years ? — From the time it was proposed purchasing at the rate of 20,000 volumes per annum, but we have bought at a much larger rate ; there are already a great many thousand volumes in that library, but it will not be full for some time. 139. But if it is advisable, in your opinion, now to purchase this land, do you see any reason why, for the next 50 years, that land and space may not be appropriated to the exhibition of other portions of the Museum ? — I do not see that it is possible to do that ; for if the 1 space were occupied by other departments you would never get them out of it, and very reasonably ; they would say, We have made all our arrangements here. Then there is the expense, suppose you had to adapt for the library the Department of Antiquities and the Egyptian room ; it would cost an enormous sum. 140. Mr. Monckton Milnes.~] May we not as- sume that you, either by personal inspection, or from the best information you can acquire, are well aware of the position of the principal collec- tions, both literary, scientific, artistic, and archaeo- logical in Europe? — I have tried to obtain informa- tion on the subject. 141. Can you inform the Committee whe- ther any other nation has ever attempted to com- bine those four great collections concentrated in one spot?— Never, and what is more, I have collected some information about that, because I have seen it stated that it is a creditable thing to England that she should set the example of having everything together. First of all, when you see the whole world agree, which they certainly do, in not having all such dis- parate collections together, you must think there must be some reason for it. 1 have asked men of science and men of letters, out of England, and they have all told me that when they have been to see the Museum, they have admired it ex- cessively ; but that it is a great pity everything should be together in that building. I have ob- served that there have been in- different countries new establishments erected for these sorts of col- lections ; but I have never seen any in which all has been put, like here, on one spot. Many years ago a gentleman, Count Laborde, who, I suppose, is well known to many in this room — a very superior man, keeper of the larchives in France, and one of the most distinguished scholars in Europe — wrote some letters on public libraries ; he knew our British Museum, as it was then, that is, in 1845, as well as any one of us. He gives, in one of his letters, a plan of the Museum library, of the presses, and of the arrangements as far as was necessary for his purpose, in the different de- partments ; there is a paragraph which, if the Committee will permit me, I will read. Count de Laborde says, " I am quite ready to admire, as all visitors do, the King's Library, with its columns in the centre, and long presses lighted by high windows; but I am sorry to see that so little has the increase of the library been foreseen, that already shabby additions are con- templated. After all, there is nothing coherent in all this ; and, as to the. great gathering of the master works of human genius and the productions of nature, that is an idea, the theory of which was first conceived in France, and which in practice presents many drawbacks. That in a small town B 2 should 5 June i860. 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Panizzi, should be mixed, by reasons of economy, under Esq. the same roof and under the same superintendence, small collections, nothing is better ; further on we 5 June s hall have occasion to show the advantages of such i860. an assoc iation of objects ; but that in a capital like London an attempt should be made to stow away together, in the same building, however vast it may be, all its scientific and literary riches, is a puerile attempt. Suppose our Museums of the Louvre, of the Jardin des Plantes, of the School of Arts, of Artillery, of the Hotel Cluny, of the Royal Library, united together, what building- would suffice for such immense collections and its officers ? Let us suppose that the country is rich enough to erect such a building, that the required site could be obtained in the town, we cannot doubt that in less than a couple of centuries these collections will be twice as large and as important, and how shall then provision be made for such an increase, except by building a town in a town ? When collections have reached a certain extent and importance, instead of being united, they ought to be more special and simplified. Some superficial minds may find it very advantageous to go from the marbles of Phidias to the manu- scripts of the middle age, from the works of nature to those of human genius ; but for serious studies and for large investigations, this fluttering here and there is of no use, and this union interferes with the natural development, and the good management of the collections. 1 ' 142. Do you not conceive that the real difficulty with regard to the extension of space does arise from the complication of the objects which are supposed to be placed in the British Museum .' — No doubt. 143. If the collection was a simple one, or if it were even of a double character, there would not be so much difficulty in procuring such an exten- sion of space, even in the middle of London, as would enable you to supply the probable wants of the Museum for a very considerable time? — That is my ©pinion. 144. But, under present circumstances, and owing to the great complication of the objects, is it your opinion that the space which would be required for a reasonable extension of such a national institution for a considerable period of time, would be almost impossible to obtain? — That is my opinion ; it is what I have attemped to show before. 145. That being the case, have you at all ex- amined the question, how far the extension of space would be practicable, supposing there was a division of the objects ; Imeanthe Museum to be relieved, say either of the natural history collection, or the works of art, or of the antiquities ; do you think that, under those circumstances, such an ex- tension of space might be obtained as would effect your object ? — I should think so. If any of the great collections were to be removed, I have no doubt that it would be very easy to extend the Museum sufficiently for a great many years. I think, however, that eventually, even if the natural history collections were removed, in the course of a great many years the whole of that space all round the Museum would have to be purchased for what remains, but not soon. 146. Sir George Grey.\ Do you mean, assum- ing such a removal as has been suggested, of a portion of those objects which are now contained in the Museum, that you could not even then reduce your estimate of the amount of space that Avould be required, and the consequent expense in procuring it ? this difference ; there now that expense -That is what I mean ; but with if you keep everything that is you would require that space, and say within 40 years; whereas, if you were to remove, say the natural history col- lection, and leave all the rest for the collections of the works of man, then it might be 100 years hence. 147. Then to what extent, supposing a removal of the natural history collection to take place, would you then reduce your immediate demand for an extension of space, and the consequent expenditure in procuring it ? — I think it could be considerably reduced by alterations being made inside the existing building ; but I am afraid here that I should not agree with my colleagues at the Museum ; for instance, my opinion is, that if the natural history collection was to be removed, much of the space might be used for antiquities, but then we must give up the idea of having only skylight ; if we are to have skylight, what I suggest would not be sufficient, and so we must make the best of the arrangement ; we must not have that fine chronological or artistical arrange- ment, which certainly would be desirable, if the Museum did not exist. 148. Mr. Monchton Milnes.] Has not the erec- tion of the new library in the British Museum completely altered the whole question as to the collections, from what it was at the time when you gave evidence before the commission ? — It has not much altered it, as the building was ready when the National Gallery Site Commission sat, as I have stated before. 149. Mr. Walpole.'] One of the great points now is to find space for the heavier pieces of antiquity ? — Yes. 150. "Would the removal of the natural histo y collection furnish you with accommodation for those heavier pieces of antiquity? — I will give you my opinion, but only in illustration of what I think might be done, and I hope the Committee will not take the details as being all correct. Suppose the natural history collection was to be moved away, and the print-room, which is now midway (it is not on the upper floor, nor on the first floor), removed altogether ; if the natural history is removed, that room should be put, or ought to be put, on the same floor as the first floor of the Museum, and with the addition to it of the space which you see to the south of it, and which is now unbuilt upon, that would make a magnificent room for antiquities ; and the prints could go up-stairs to any space that was left empty by the natural history collection, where a room for the exhibition of prints would be fitted up. In the same manner for the medal room; the medal room might be extended then to that part which contains the British and mediaeval anti- quities and the majolica, which I think ought to go away ; but supposing that they are not going away, they could easily be removed to some other part now occupied by the natural history col- lections. 151. Suppose that removal were to take place, where would you put the Halicarnassus collection ? —I think in that room that I have been suggest- ing, on the site of the print room and the empty space south of it ; I think that would be a room large enough for that collection. 152. You would add to the print room by building on the empty space to the south of it; would that be large enough for the Halicarnassus collection ? — I think so. 153. Mr. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 13 153. Mr. Monckton Milnes.] How many years do you calculate roughly it will take to fill all the present accommodation for books in the Museum ? — We calculated 40 years from the time when the new library was built ; at 20,000 volumes a year that new library would hold 800,000 volumes ; but, as I have already stated, I have under-stated that on purpose to be certain ; I think it will hold more on account of the now prevailing size of books ; we no longer print folios and quartos; therefore I think there would be room for more volumes than was calculated, and I dare say there is room yet, although purchasing at the rate of 27,000 volumes a year, instead of 20,000 volumes a year, for 35 years to come in that library, 154. Do you mean space where convenient shelves could be put up ? — Yes ; many shelves are already there. 155. Have you ever contemplated what you would require beyond that, or in what direction it would be advisable that space for books should be still further provided ? — I should think, sup- posing the natural history collections were to go away, that there could be no objection to having books on the second floor ; there might be trap- doors and speaking tubes, to facilitate the service ; the books could be had from up-stairs more easily than from a distance of 200 yards off on the same floor, and therefore the long "Bird gallery'' might be all converted into a library when wanted. 156. Supposing the antiquities to be removed, would not equal or greater convenience be given for an increase of the books ? — I think not. If you remove all the Egyptian antiquities and adapt that room for the library, and build for the Egyptian antiquities, it would be tantamount to rebuilding the interior of that room ; then you must consider the expense and risk of re- moving away heavy objects as those are, and the danger of injuring them. I believe that a great library like the library of the British Mu- seum, as it ought to be, and as I hope it will be, is of great importance for the collection of antiquities, but not of so much importance for the collection of natural history ; consequently, if you remove the antiquities from near the large library, you take from antiquarians the means of illus- trating as they ought the objects of antiquity, and extending a knowledge of the history, poli- tical and religious, as well as of the manners, laws, and civilization of ancient times. 157. Confining the question entirely to the subject of space, are the Committee to infer that you think, for mere space, as far as the extension of the library is concerned, it would be more ad- visable to separate the natural history collection than the antiquities ? — I think so ; at one time I suggested that either one or the other should go ; that was before the building of the new library. Now, let us suppose that you had to put the books into the Elgin room or into the Lycian room, then see what a distance it is from the reading room, and what an inconvenient arrangement that would be. As I was saying before, the Egyptian room which is near, would require to be refitted altogether, at an enormous expense, besides having to move such heavy objects thence. I do not think that the same advantages would be derived to the library if the antiquities were removed, as from the removal of the natural history collections. N 158. You have alluded to the subject of studies for persons engaged in the examination of works of natural history, and you stated that it was 0.96. almost impossible for those studies to be well pro- //. Paniezi, secuted, in the midst of a number of sight-seers ? Esq. — No ; I said it was impossible to jjrosecute those studies in a room like that insect room, where 5 June all the assistant officers are, and where, besides 1800. that, all come who want to study or examine any particular branch or subject of natural history ; I said that it seemed to me there ought to be at- tached to each department, to the antiquities, as well as to the print room, a room where the students should come and work at particular sub- jects ; as readers go to the reading room to make use of the books which are kept in the library. 159. But in the reading room, it is supposed that there are no persons present, except those who are there for the purposes of study ? —Yes. 160. Even in that case, has it not been frequently complained of that accommodation has not been given for separate study, to persons of shy and nervous temperament, who do not like studying in the presence of a large body of persons, but who require a quiet private depart- ment ? — There has been one complaint of that kind I know of; I never knew of any other, but it was found that if you give such accommodation to one gentleman, however high his merits, you must do so for everybody. 161. May I not draw the inference, that in the case of the student of natural history, all studies should be prosecuted quietly and separately from a crowd of sight-seers? — I mean that; 1 mean that the studies should be separate from the sight- seers for all the departments. 162. Therefore, in an institution which is to combine a museum for the amusement and edifica- tion of the public with scientific requirements, a very large space is essentially necessary ?— Most certainly. 163. Have you heard complaints from scientific persons of their not being able to study in the natural history department, in consequence of the crowd of sight-seers ? — No, because they come on private days, and because the officers go and fetch an object out, and take it to the room I mentioned, in order that they may be quiet. If they come on private days, and when there are not many people in the exhibition rooms, they look at what they like, and study, and copy, and occa- sionally paint, in those rooms. But I have heard great complaints from those who come to see the osteological collection that they are put into a damp and dark room, and in a room in which an officer must always be with them to give the specimens out, as they are in boxes. And so with regard to the skins which are not exhibited ; somebody must go and take them out, in a room which is not convenient, and I want a convenient room for such students as those. 164. What is the present number of private days in a week ?— In summer, only two for four months in the year, and in winter, three. 165. If you had these studies which have been spoken of, might you not increase the accommo- dation to the public ? — No, I think not, because you cannot move away the statues from their places for those who come to draw ; and, more- over, with regard to animals, you cannot take an antelope or an elephant to a little room, to a study ; and so there must be certain days for students in the large rooms. 166. Sir Philip Egerton.~] In the plan adopted by the trustees for providing studies for the officers of the mineralogical department, was there not one study lighted by a skylight 1 — Yes, and B 3 a very 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Panizzi, Esq. 5 June i860. a very good thing it was ; I want that principle to be extended to other departments. 167. Chairman.} You said, in reply I think to Mr. Walpole, that, presuming some of the col- lections were removed, it would be requisite to provide for some of the heavier specimens of sculpture, and you stated that you thought the marbles might be admitted in that space to the south of the print room, which, I presume is represented by figure 32 on the plan of the ground floor, No. 17 ? — I did not say only that space; I said the space, No. 31, and the space of the print room itself. 168. Would not the occupation of that par- ticular space be the means, not only of inter- ference with the cart-road which runs down there, and brings your articles into the interior of the Museum, but would it not also interfere with the air which it is rather necessary to obtain ? — What I meant was, that if you were to occupy that space which is marked Nos. 31 and 30 thrown into one, you might there, I think, make a room for the Budruni marbles, and go further if it were necessary ; you might go on to No. 33, and cut offa bit of the library, because, although you would lose that space for the library, in the supposed removal of the natural history collection, there will be room enough for books somewhere else ; I think you would have there in conjunction with the antiquities a very fine room for the Cnidus and Budmm marbles. 169. Then you would have a disjunction from the rest of the antiquity collections, as you must provide for this cartway which runs in, in that space of ground between 31 and 32 ? — That can be done without ; no cart will go in that way ; there are four other entrances. 170. But suppose that plan were carried out, you would shut up that way altogether? — Yes; because of the necessity of the case ; I wish it to be understood, that I do not suggest this as de- sirable, if you had to build a new Museum ; but I think it is the best way to make the most of the space that we have, and of the buildings that we have. There is another addition, which I suggested long ago : immediately on going in, on the left hand side, you see No. 69 ; there is the large staircase there ; I have suggested that that stair- case should be removed, and two made on the sites Nos. 70 and 79 ; the thing can be done ; and then you would have a very fine room on the ground floor joined with No. 12, which has already antiquities ; you would have moreover a good room above ; but then the antiquarians, at least my colleagues in the department of antiquities, would be against that, as they want skylights. 171. Presuming that it was decided that there should be a chronological and scientific arrange- ment of the antiquities, you would then at ' once enter by that room which you propose now ; upon the specimens of the first twelve dynasties of Egyptian scuhrture, which do not require any Very particular light ? — I think we must give up the idea of having a strictly chronological and avtistical arrangement ; we must do it as well as we can and as much as we can, but not turn the whole of the Museum upside down for that ar- rangement. On the right hand side opposite, Nos. 58 and 56, there are manuscripts. Those manuscripts might go into the room exactly above those where the botany is, and that space which is now occupied by them might be used for anti- quities on the ground floor; it is space exactly like the one on the other side, and which is partly used for antiquities now. 172. That light would come in from windows, and be very much interfered with by the dome of the reading-room, would it not? — The light is from windows, but it is not interfered with by the dome. 173. Mr. Puller.] Have you got with you the amount of space in number of feet occupied by each of the different departments now ? — It is in one of the returns here ; in that report of 1857, page 38 ; it was measured by the architect. When I was asked to give this information to the trus- tees, I of course went to him and asked him to give me the information required. 174. In this report, 1 see that the antiquities on the ground floor occupy 39,000 feet super- ficial ? — Yes. 175. Is there any estimate of what would be required on the ground floor for those antiquities, which are not now properly placed ? — I think not; but there is a general statement of the keeper of the department of antiquities, who says we must have much more room for what we have already, besides the Lycian marbles, which are fixed, and besides what we have now in the basement. 176. I mean, including all that, to bring on to the ground floor everything that ought to be there ; can you give any approximation to what would be required to place all the antiquities there ? — I think that those suggestions which I have made would be ample, not only for what we want now, but for some years to come, supposing additions to be made (I cannot give you the number of feet), I mean provided the skylights are not insisted upon ; but if they are insisted upon,, then all that I have suggested is good for nothing, because in the first proposed space for the Budrum marbles, after the Elgin room, the light would be skylight ; but, except that, ail the rest would be with a floor above. 177. Whether you get skylight or not, it does not alter the space wanted on the ground floor, does it ?— Not in the least; it does not alter it; but I mention that only to tell you what objec- tions there are to my suggestion. I have no doubt that what I have suggested will give plenty of room for antiquities for the present, and even for some time to come should additions be made. 178. You do not know how many thousand feet it would be in addition ? — No. 179. Chairman.] With regard to the Cnidus and Budrum collections, I would ask you whether a very great portion of those objects which have been sent over by Mr. Newton are not totally unnecessary for exhibition ; indeed, whether a part of them only would be at all advisable to be exhibited ?— I do not think a very large portion of them ; I say that there would be room enough for all those things, because, before Mr. Newton went to Borne, we sketched upon one of these plans, in pencil, our ideas of what might be done for those marbles, and it was on the supposition that there should be space preserved for them all. I do not think there is much that ought not to be exhibited. 180. There is a great portion of those marbles which was sent home rather to see whether they would fit any fractures, and might be worked up to suit any of the. marbles ? — Those would take very little room. 181. Take the case of the Branchidse statues, do you think it is at all advisable or desirable to exhibit SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. *5 exhibit every one of those ? — I am rather of that opinion. I am for putting the statues on the two sides, just as he found' them, and not to part with any of them. 182. Mr. Puller.~\ Skylight I suppose is wanted, more especially for those things which are objects of art and beauty ? — Yes. 183. They do not care about skylights for in- scriptions? — No; but for the statues and fine art. 1 84. Any other antiquities then might be placed on the ground-floor of the building, the upper rooms of which might be devoted to books, or to the natural history collection ? — Yes. These alterations are assuming that the natural history collection is removed, because it is assuming that the insect room, under the print room, is done away with, that the print room is lowered to the same level as the rest of the ground floor, and the collection taken up stairs, where there are now antiquities which would have to be removed to what now is filled with natural history. 185. I understood you to say, in answer to Mr. Walpole, that even if the natural history collec- tions were removed, a large extent of space would still be wanted for the existing antiquities, on the ground-floor ? — I have been suggesting what seem to me large additions to the ground-floor space. 186. A considerable extent of land must be purchased to provide space for those things which are now in the Museum ? — I think not, the natural history being removed ; I think what I have sug- gested would satisfy the requirement with side light, in some cases, not skylight ; I believe there would be room for many years to come on the ground-floor for the antiquities. If you take the whole of that space between the Elgin room, and the site occupied by the print room, if you build new staircases, and appropriate the space of the present great staircase to antiquities, and if you do the same with the manuscript room, which might be emptied by putting the manuscripts ^bove, where the botany is ; if you do that, you will have plenty of room for the antiquities now, and also for some time to come on the ground- floor. 187. Have you got any valuation by a sur- veyor of the different classes of houses all round the Museum? — In the report which was made by the special committee of the 26th of November 1859, and which I drew up, you will see that I had three different data to go by. I had, first, what the houses were rated at, and what some of the houses were let at ; and I had what some houses which the trustees bought cost. With those three data put together, as far as the part round the British Museum is concerned, 1 formed an opinion of the value of the land. I moreover privately consulted a builder of great eminence, and, of course, our architect ; then for the part opposite the Museum, which proved to be much dearer, I had not only the rating, and what some of the houses let at, but I could judge of the value of the land by what I found it cost for the site where Endell-street is, which was 67,000 1, an acre ; and those were the grounds upon which I pro- ceeded to give those figures. 188. Supposing all, those houses in Charlotte- street and in Bedford-square were bought, there is a considerable space, is there not, between the back of those houses and the Museum ? — Yes ; and that is the great advantage of it. 189. Supposing that space occupied by a room of only one floor, where you would have skylight, 0.96. i860. you would still be able to have higher buildings, A. Panizzi, of two or three stories high, where the present Esq. houses stand, without injuring the light ? — Per-. haps so ; but I cannot tell without looking more ■' !lh minutely into that. I do not know how high that building might be, or how wide, or how much you might encroach on the gardens. 190. If the building were not higher than the present houses, the light would not be at all injured, would it? — I suppose not, but cannot tell ; but that is providing for one department only, without considering the others. 191. With reference to the suggestion as to a scientific arrangement, supposing that you had room enough to make a complete scientific arrange- ment of all your antiquities, would not that be disturbed in a few years by the coming in of fresh antiquities ? — Of course it would ; and that is the reason why it will not do to say we will build now for what we want, and we will build in future for what may come ; you cannot inter- calate antiquities without considerable trouble, and without great expense and danger. If you were to begin de novo, and have a plan for a great museum on that system, it would be necessary to do as we have done for the library, to have room for future additions, and therefore you might have room that would never be occupied. Supposing that you left room for Assyrian antiquities, and no more were found, that room would be thrown away ; on the other hand, if you did not leave room for things that might come, your arrange- ment would be all wrong. 192. Mr. Loioe.~\ Do you expect any increase to the natural history collection from the East India ' Company ? — It was intimated to me by a friend who had the disposal of it, in a great measure, that the Government would send the whole of it to the Mu- seum ; I said, " No, but allow our officers to choose what we want, and then the rest may go to other institutions," and so it was done ; that has been permitted, and a very good thing it has been ; I wish they would allow us to have all the antiquities besides, and I wish still more that they should allow us to have the manuscripts, because the British Museum, which is now one of the finest, if not the finest collection of oriental manuscripts, particularly Persian and Arabic, with the pur- chase lately made of Colonel Taylor's manuscripts, if it had added the collection of the East India House, it would be by far the greatest collection of oriental manuscripts in the world, in every branch. 193. Where do you propose to put these natu- ral history specimens ? — They have intercalated them as well as they could ; they are small ones, and instead of being three deep, some of them will be four deep in the presses. 194. Suppose the collections continue on the present scale, is space required for any other pur- pose than their exhibition ? — Yes ; I have men- tioned that before ; a room would also be required where broken fragments might be kept. There ought to be a room where such things should be put, for, at any time, if another cargo of them came, you might find among them fragments of objects which would thus be completed. Mr. Lloyd, a gentleman having a considerable know- ledge of antiquities, came to our Elgin room, which he knows well, and he found two frag- ments which fit exactly larger fragments ; one is the cast of the bust of the driver of the chariot of the sun, and the other the original knee of the " Victory," in the Elgin room, which completes the statue so far. b4+- 195. Do i6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Panizzi, 195. Do you think that the objects of natural Esq. history that were in the Museum before the com- # mencement of the present century are still in 5 June 'existence? — Many are not, I know; evidence l8fJo ' has been given to that effect by Mr. Kcenig and other gentlemen as to many of the perishable objects ; for instance, of the coleoptera of Sir Hans Sioane, and of the birds of Sir Joseph Banks, that there was not one in existence ; what was solid, still exists. As to many of the objects forming part of the Sioane Collection of a perish- able nature, or unfit, as it was thought, for the Museum, Sir Joseph Banks made a very good Report to persuade the Trustees, which he did, to remove them to the College of Surgeons. 196. Do you think that any arrangement can be come to that will relieve Parliament from the necessity of purchasing any more land in the neighbourhood of the Museum? — Certainly not, whatever you may do, sooner or later. 197. Even supposing that there is a separation or a dispersion, you still think that land must be bought? — Yes; I think so, ultimately, but a great many years hence. 198. Mr. Walpole.~\ Whether we remove part of the collections or retain the whole, it will be necessary to purchase some of the additional space round the Museum ? — Yes, at some period more or less distant. 199. Lord Stanley.] Do you entertain any objection to the purchase of land round the Museum, with a view, at present, of accommo- dating all the collections contained in the Mu- seum, the question of ultimate separation being reserved for a future time, when that space, as you seem to think, will be insufficient? — I think that has already been mentioned ; I said that that would be the best thing to do, only it seems to me that the Committee ought not to consider that only a small building is wanted immediately ; I believe that when you have bought the whole of the land, it will be necessary to build at once far more than is contemplated. 200. Chairman.] What is the value of the land ?— £. 240,000. 201. The remaining 560,000 I. you estimate for the buildings?— Yes ; I judge of that from what the present buildings have cost, and supposing that the additions were built in the same style. 202. Sir Philip Egerton.] I think you stated that one principal reason for not removing the antiquities was the advisability of keeping the collection of antiquities in close proximity to the library ?• — Yes. 203. Do you not think that the collection of natural history stands in the same category as to the library of natural history ?■ — I think so, with this distinction ; I think, first of all, that a great number of the books in the Museum are utterly useless for natural history ; but I cannot say it is the same for the antiquities, because we all know that poets and orators, for instance, have much to do with antiquities and with ancient religions, whereas natural history wants merely a technical library, and even that not such as the Museum possesses altogether. You do not want the first edition of Aristotle by Aldus, or the first edition of Pliny, but you want a good edition of Aristotle of modern -times, and a good edition of Pliny, with notes by Cuvier, and so on ; it would, how- ever, be an important library. 204. In the event of the removal of the natural history collection, would you advocate the removal also of such library of natural history from the principal library as would be available for pur- suing the study of natural history ? — I should not, because you must continue to have in the Museum a collection of books on natural history ; but I think when such removal takes place, a very handsome sum ought to be put aside, to purchase all that is wanted. 205. Have you formed any calculation of the sum of money that will be necessary ? — No ; but Professor Owen was asked once to make a calcu- lation. I was not consulted ; but there has been such a calculation made, and I dare say it is a considerable sum that will be required ; for many of the books wanted are books with plates, or otherwise costly, and the thing ought to be done nobly. Many geographical works, books of travels and voyages, transactions of societies, journals, and reviews, ought to be included ; but I think we ought to leave the books of the Museum where they are, for else if you take them away, it is only taking the trouble to remove them, and to buy others in their place. 206. Can you inform the Committee what sum of money it would cost ? — I do not recollect what the estimated sum was. 207. Was it 20,000 1. ? — I would not undertake to do it for 20,000 1. 208. Chairman.] Are there not now in the British Museum papers and theses which have been forwarded to the British Museum from learned societies in Europe upon natural history, which would be almost indispensable to a col- lection of natural history, and which are not pro- curable ? — The last part of the question I do not admit. I believe that there may be one in a thousand that may not be procurable ; and, in that case, the students of natural history must have the trouble to come to the Museum and look at that particular dissertation. 209. With regard to the third part of the in- quiry, that of relieving the Museum, you are, I believe, of opinion that that can be best effected by removing some of the collections from the Museum ? — Yes ; I think that the best way would* be, to remove some of the collections, not a few objects, but to such an extent as to gain all the space that I have been contemplating in answer to the questions put to me. 210. I believe it is your opinion that it would be advisable to remove the collections of natural history ? — Yes. 211. With regard to those natural history col- lections, how far would their removal be in ac- cordance with the Act of George II., chap. 26, which founded the British Museum, and de- clared that "the several collections, additions, and libraries received into the said general re- pository shall remain, and be preserved therein for the public use, to all posterity ? " — I think it would render necessary an Act of Parliament - but that same power that created the Museum, I suppose has the power of dividing it; and I believe the trustees themselves, in other times have advocated the principle. There is a Report of Sir Joseph Banks's, to which I alluded before, in which he suggested to the trustees that it was desirable to remove some of the objects of natural , history which were kept in cellars, or which were unfit for exhibition ; and he states, " It is submitted that it is almost the duty of the trustees of the British Museum, who are, in fact, the trustees of the public, to transfer those things from the establishment to which they were originally sent to one where the best purposes for which it was originally SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 17 originally endowed would be promoted." On the same principle, if Parliament thinks that it will tend to the advantage of science, as I contend, for I believe that the scientific collections re- moved elsewhere will be of more advantage in every respect, Parliament will remove them. 212. What would be the position of the family trustees with regard to the collections removed ? — - Of the trustees of families who have given, be- cause it is only those of whom I speak, there are not any representing givers of natural history only ; the gifts of natural history, with the ex- ception of the Greville collections of minerals and the Banksian herbarium, have been very moderate indeed. Sir Hans Sloane's collection was pur- chased by the public for 20,000 1., and of the natural history of Sir Hans Sloane, except that which is not perishable, very little remains, if any. 213. Have you read the memorial of the cul- tivators of science on the proposed severance of the natural history collections from the British Museum, presented to the Government in 1858? — I have. 214. I suppose you are aware that that docu- ment was signed by 114 names of the most emi- nent scientific men in England, who protested against the removal of those collections ? — Yes. 215. Professor Owen being amongst them? — I believe that many of the gentlemen who signed that paper, signed it under the impression that the proposal was to separate the collection of natural history ; to send the zoology to one place, and perhaps branches of the zoology to different places, not the removal of the natural history col- lections altogether to a. special establishment ; and moreover, there have been nine of the same gentle- men who signed that memorial who signed another in another sense. I will add their names. 216. Do you consider, that the second memo- rial differs in its main recommendations from the other? — I think so. I know that it was signed with that idea. 217. Is it your opinion that the objections of those gentlemen chiefly rested upon the dispersion of the collections, rather than upon their removal ? — 1 have understood so. • 218. If you turn to the 7th paragraph you will find that they give a very strong reason, which would hardly be in accordance with your opinion, that it merely referred to the dispersion, and not to the removal of the natural history collections, inasmuch as they say : " We beg to add an expla- nation of our opinion, that such removals of the natural history collections from the site where they have been established for upwards of a cen- tury, in the centre of London, would be viewed, by the mass of the people, with extreme dis- favour, it being a well-known fact that by far the greater number of the visitors to the Museum consist of those who frequent the natural history collection; whilst it is obvious that many of those persons who come from the densely-peopled districts of the east, and the northern and southern parts of London, would feel it very in- convenient to resort to any distant locality." Is it your opinion that the great mass of the visitors regard with more favour the natural history col- lections than they do the other collections in the British Museum? — First of all, it seems to me that this reason which they give, gentlemen follow- ing any pursuit, and not only naturalists, might give it with equal authority ; they cannot know that the people from the east come more to see the natural history collections than others; in 0.96. point of fact, I do not believe that visitors do j_, Panizzi, come to see the natural history collections at the Esq. Museum more than the other collections. I be- • lieve it is impossible to know it; I have tried to 5 J une ascertain whether it is the fact, but I have never ' 860. been able to satisfy myself which of the collections was the most attractive. At the British Museum people come in, and turn, let us say, to the left, and they go to the antiquities. You cannot say that those people go to see the antiquities ; very likely they pass through them, and go to see the natural history collections. They go upstairs, and then you do not know whether they turn to the right or to the left. If they turn one way, they go to see antiquities ; if the other, they go to the natural history. I have collected some information upon this subject as to what, is the case in other institu- tions, and it would seem that the natural history collections attract most people. In 1859, the greatest number of visitors went to the National Gallery, not to the British Museum, in spite of our natural history collections ; the British Museum came next, the South Kensington Museum came next, where there is very little natural history ; the Royal Gardens at Kew came next ; the Vernon and Turner collection of pic- tures had 172,000 visitors, and with those that went to the National Gallery, about a million of people went to see the collections of art, not the collections of natural history. Then, at the Museum of Practical Geology, which is purely natural history, they had 25,000 visitors in a year ; whereas, as I said, the National Gallery and the Vernon and Turner Gallery had nearly a million. There was a collection of ornithology and other animals, belonging to the Zoological Society. Most of the Members of the. Committee may recollect that it was kept in Leicester-square, and in different other places in succession. Then it was removed to the Garden itself; and, finally, it was sold because nobody went to look at it ; and so I do not know why visitors should be so very keen in coming to 'see the natural history collections of the Museum, if they do not go to see the collection which is much more artistically and po- pularly disposed at the Museum in Jermyn-street. I may mention a particular class of persons who come to see our collections of natural history, and that is the children. A great many of them come ; and that is one of the reasons why it would be desirable that the collections should be sepa- rated ; because those same children who go to look at the collection of birds, for instance, then run clown to the collection of antiquities, and along the stream of the library visitors, shouting and scampering about in a very improper manner, throwing about orange-peel, which they come there to eat. I think it would be a great deal better for the Museum, in that respect, that the collections of natural history should not be there ; for the fewer persons of this class are attracted as visitors, the better. I 'do not mean respectable families of artisans, but I mean children of 10 or 12 years of age who are sent alone ; they give more trouble than anybody else. 219. Would not the same argument apply to the pictures in the National Gallery ? — I have never seen whether there are so many there as come to the M useum ; when they are in the bird gallery, or where the mammalia are, children are interested, and keep quiet ; when they go to the other parts of the Museum, about which they do not care, they are a great trouble to those who do care. C 220. Sir iS MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Panizzi 22 °- Sir Philip Egerton.] Have you any authority Esq. ' for the statement that you have made, that the Council of the Zoological Society sold their Mu- 5 June seum, because people would not go to look at it ? — • i860. I sent to make inquiry, and I was told that that was the reason ; I have not been myself to inquire, but I sent to inquire, and that is the result ; the Society have disposed of it, little by little, since 1853. 221. Chairman.'] Are you not of opinion that it is more natural that the working classes will ap- preciate the collections of natural history, which do not require any particular or special education, rather than the collections of archaeology, which certainly do presume that the person appreciating them must have had, to a certain extent, a general education? — We have not collections of archaeology only; we have collections of autographs, for in- stance, and manuscripts, exhibited ; we have col- lections of rare books, a sort of history of printing, now open in the cases of the Library, and you.have no idea of the interest which visitors generally take in those collections ; and for the same reason that they can judge, and do enjoy so much the National Gallery, where there are objects of fine art, they enjoy our collections, and come into the galleries, particularly of antiquities, even such as the Assyrian antiquities, because they have read of them in their Bible ; that has taken a great hold of their minds, and they are eager to see the things which are alluded to in the book which they are more acquainted with than any other. 222. Have you seen the evidence which has been given lately before a Select Committee of the House of Commons upon Public Institutions ? — Yes ; I was examined before that Committee myself. 223. Have you observed that the evidence was strongly in favour of the preference given by the working classes to natural history as a subject of study? — I do not know what the evidence is, speculatively, but I speak of the facts; those numbers which I have given speak for themselves ; there is, on the one hand, the British Museum, with all its natural history collections, visited during 1859 by 517,895 persons, while the National Gallery, including the Yernon and Turner collec- tions, was visited by nearly a million. 224. Sir George Grey.] And how many at the South Kensington Museum ? — Four hundred and seventy-five thousand three hundred and sixty- five ; within about 40,000 of those to the Museum. 225. Chairman.] At South Kensington you know the people have an inducement to go there, which you do not afford them at the British Museum ; the rooms are lighted at night, which is a great inducement to them to go there? — Speaking of natural history, there was the East India House Museum that was open to general visitors one day in the week ; and after the collec- tion of fabrics and other things which had been exhibited at Paris were sent back here, and put into that Museum, one day was not enough ; they were obliged to open it two . days in the week ; one day was enough for the natural history, but not for those manufactures. 226. That shows, does it not, that the inhabi- tants of the east part of London require insti- tutions for exhibition and amusement? — Yes, certainly, and I proposed a long time ago myself to give them such institutions; I think in the early part of my examination, I stated that I had proposed in 1836 before a Committee of the House of Commons, that there should be libraries established in three or four different parts of London, which, for want of a better name, I called Educational Libraries, different from that of the British Museum. To the Museum a large number of people come to read, who take up room, and could easily have the accommodation they want elsewhere, with ' the additional advan- tage of not having to come all the way from the outskirts of London to Bloonisbury. In the same manner there ought also to be museums of natural history, where only typical specimens would be exhibited, so that inhabitants in the vicinity might learn enough of natural history to enjoy more the collections of the Museum when- ever they had time to visit them. If it is desirable that people should draw, casts for the people ought to be distributed in different parts of London ; but as long as a poor man has to work for his bread till six or seven o'clock at night, he has not time to come to the Museum, if he do not live in the immediate neighbourhood ; and, if he had the time, I do not know that he would have the in- clination ; it depends upon what trade he follows ; a tailor may be glad to come from some distance to the Museum after sitting the whole day at work ; I do not think a bricklayer would. 227. I believe Dr. Gray stated in his evidence that he had means in his collections of furnishing duplicates, to set up as many as three distinct auxiliary museums ?■ — That is a novelty to me ; because if he has such a collection of duplicates at the British Museum as would stock three or four auxiliary museums, and if the collection of natural history, as appears from the evidence given by Dr. Gray himself, has increased 30 or 40 fold, from 1840 to 1848, I do not know why he has bought those duplicates ; they are either useful and necessary for the Museum, or they are not; if they are, they ought to be kept; but if they are not, they ought never to have been bought. All the reports of Dr. Gray, as you have seen, press for want of space to be supplied to him ; yet he says that he has so many objects of which he can dispose ; I cannot understand it. 228. Do you think that this statement of his that he has sufficient to set up three distinct auxiliary museums, tallies with that urgent de- mand that he makes upon the trustees for .addi- tional space? — I speak from his reports; I am not a scientific man ; but I think that an officer of the Museum ought not to. have bought what he thinks it is not necessary to keep. 229. In his evidence before the Committee on Public Institutions, he alludes to the great fond- ness of the working classes for the natural his- tory collections in the British Museum, and more particularly the British collections ; I think he says that the working classes avail themselves of their holidays and Sundays to botanise, and to geologise, and to make collections of insects ; and that they then come with great pleasure and benefit to the British collections in the British Museum, in order to compare the specimens which they have obtained with those in that institution ? — 1 have read that he says so, and I have no doubt that, as he says so, he thinks it is true. I think it would be very convenient for those botanists and geologists to have collections near them, instead of having to come all the way to the Museum to follow their scientific inquiries. 230. He states also that, as far as his know- ledge goes, the persons who study natural history come from the north, the south, and east of the Museum, whereas the artists reside at Kensing- ton; SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. '9 ton; I think, he says, that 430 out of 500 artists live in that direction, but that the students of natural history are almost all congregated in the neighbourhood round about the Museum ? — I do not know that ; if he says so, I have no doubt that it is the case, but I do not conceive that the British Museum is made only for scientific men, or for artists. 231. But for the public? — Undoubtedly. 232. That being the case, if the working classes who live to the east of the British Museum, and also the students who live round it, would suifer very great inconvenience by the removal of the natural history collections to districts which, as far as the working man is concerned, would render it almost impossible for him to visit the collec- tions, would you not say that that would be one reason, at all events, against the transfer ? — Yes ; if you admit the inconvenience. But 1 do not believe that that class of people come to see the Museum unless they have a holiday. When during, for instance, the Easter or Whitsun week, they have a whole day to spend, they come to the Museum, but they also go to other institutions, and it does not signify the distance being a mile more or less. I think the number that visit Hampton Court, and such other institutions, visit them on a Sunday, which proves that the distance does not prevent people from going to see those collections; and I believe that often they enjoy much more going to Kensington or to Hampton Court, than to Bloomsbury. 233. Is not that contrary to all the evidence that has been given before the Committee on Public Institutions, to which I have referred, and in which the workmen themselves, living towards the east of London, complain of having to go two or three miles to the National Gallery and back again, and, consequently, they are unable to visit the National Gallery, and also the museum in Jermyn-street ? — It is perfectly true; and, therefore, I say, that being two miles or three miles away is all the same ; they cannot come when they are only two miles away, and being a mile or two further makes no difference if they have a holiday. 234. Sir George Grey.] Do you mean that there is not any material difference between the distance they have to come to the National Gallery and to the Museum ? — I mean that there is no material difference if they were to go further on than the Museum or the National Gallery when they have a whole day to spend ; a mile or two more is of no consequence. 235. Chairman.] Do you think that an intelli- gent working man, living in the neighbourhood of Gray's Inn, and wishing to investigate some par- ticular object, would find it the same thing to go to the Kensington Museum as to the British Museum ? — I believe that in many cases he will prefer going to Kensington. 236. On a half holiday, when his time is short, do vou think he would take his family with him ? —Yes. 237. In the evidence taken before the Com- mittee on Public Institutions, it was stated that the working classes liked to take their wives and families with them when visiting any exhibition ; do you think it would be convenient for them, if residing in the neighbourhood of the British Museum, to take their families to Kensington ? — I say again that they will never come to the British Museum if they have only an hour or two to spare ; when they have one or two 0.96. hours to spend they cannot come, whether they are two or three miles off; but if they have the whole day, I do not believe that difference in dis- tance is of the slightest consequence. _ 238. With regard to a transfer of the natural history collections, have you contemplated what would be the expense of that transfer ?— Not in the least ; but I think it is quite clear that it will cost much less to remove the birds, and things like those, than to remove heavy objects. 239. Have you heard any of the gentlemen con- nected with the natural history collections, speak at all of the risk of removing a great number of those objects ; take, for instance, the mastodon in the first room of geology ; I understand from the keeper of that department that if you attempted to move that great object, there is every chance of its crumbling to pieces? — If he says so, I dare say it is so. 240. I have also been given to understand by a gentleman connected with the Natural History Department, that the risk of removing minute objects, to which very great value is attached, from their being connected with labels, indicating the locality or the stratum in which they have been found, is very great ; that there would be great danger of those small objects being disunited from those labels, and that most irreparable mischief might ensue from the person having charge of them not being able to replace them ? — He ought to take proper precautions to keep the labels on the subjects ; I see no difficulty in that. 240*. He says that it would be almost impos- sible ? — I should like to see an instance. 241. Sir George Grey.] Do not all of those plans for extending the Museum, by taking ground on the adjoining site, imply the removal of those ' objects to another < part of the building? — Or a great many of them. 242. Therefore, that risk would to a certain extent be incurred in any plan ? — Yes. 243. Chairman.] Would it not be very dif- ferent, in removing a small amount of objects from one room to another, as compared with re- moving them to a distance of several miles, and having to pack and unpack them ?-^-I can only speak from what appears to me, without being a judge of the removal of natural history objects. I moved all the books of Mr. Grenville's from his house without packing them, and they never could have come better than they did; there was not a single one injured. I do not think it is necessary to pack things. I may add that we sent to the Manchester Exhibition from the Museum a quantity of Venetian glass, and other brittle articles; those were packed, and everything went and came back as sound as it went. 244. In addition to the estimate for acquiring the site, and building fresh galleries at Kensing- ton for the accommodation of the natural history collections, amounting in all to 594,500 1., would it not be necessary to add to that the expense of the transfer, and the purchase of a fresh library ? — Certainly, the expense of purchasing ; as to the expense of the building, I do not think it is to be put down entirely as caused by the transfer, because I suppose it is not denied that whether you remove, or whether you remain, you will have to spend money in building, with this difference, that elsewhere you will obtain the land cheaper ; when you come to inquire into that, you will see that the difference is not 150,000 1, or 2QO,000 I. as has been said ; it is much more. C2+- 245. If L Panizzi r Esq. 5 June i860. 20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Panizzi, Esq. 5 June i860. 245. If you remove the natural history collec- tions to Kensington, it will be necessary, will it not, to expend at once the whole of this sum of 594,000 1. for the land, and for the building, in order to provide, not for the collections you have at present, but for future collections ; whereas, at the present moment, if you obtain increased space in the present locality for the British Museum natural history collections, having a great portion of your existing collections provided for, what you will require will be gradually to extend your buildings as new collections come in ? — There is the time that it takes in building, and as the collections increase you must keep on increasing the space that you may require ; but it will take more time to build at the British Museum, I mean in Bloomsbury, than somewhere else ; I do not say Kensington. Supposing you are to build in Bloomsbury, and buy the houses to the north, and supposing Parliament at the end of this very session would authorise such a purchase, and provide funds, it will take six months before you can complete your contract with the landlord ; then you must give a year to the tenants to go away ; then it will take six months more to clear the place and to pull down the houses ; there would be two years gone ; and it will take you three years at least to build ; it will take a year at least, to put it at the lowest rate, before the building is dry enough to receive the collections ; there will, therefore, be six years' delay. 246.. With regard to the botanical collection, an investigation has been held by a sub-com- mittee on the natural history collections of the British Museum, as to whether those botanical collections might not be removed to Kew, and I think the evidence generally given upon that occasion, and the weight of the authority, was, that it would be advantageous for the herbaria to be placed in connexion with the living plants, and merely to retain in the British Museum a small type collection of botany ? — The gentlemen who gave their evidence differed very much amongst themselves, and the sub-committee came to the conclusion that the botany, even according to that evidence, ought to remain at the Museum. 247. Sir George Grey.] Is it your opinion, quite independently of any question arising out of the expense of enlarging the site by buying land adjoining the present Museum, that it is desir- able that the collection of natural history should be separated from the rest of the Museum? — I think so. I think it would even be more advanta- geous for the collection of natural history than for the other collections. 248. Do you think if that collection be the most attractive, that the great body of the work- ing classes would prefer going to a place where there was that collection only, instead of going to the Museum, where it is in connexion with a variety of other things in which they take no interest ?— I believe so. 249. Then, in addition to that, is it your opinion that the expense will be less of placing that col- lection elsewhere, than *providing for it by pur- chasing land near the present site ? — I think so, as far as I can judge from the cost of the land ; I assume that the building may cost the same else- where ; but it seems to me, from all the informa- tion that I can collect, that the land would be much cheaper elsewhere. 250. Can you give the Committee an accurate estimate of the site, with the purchase of the land, adjoining the present British Museum, and have you an equally accurate estimate of the expense of providing buildings for the natural history collection on another site? — I was limited. when I drew up the sub-committee report, to two sites, either in Bloomsbury or in Kensington. At Ken- sington, I got information that the land cost about 3,000 I. an acre to the Commissioners, but that the Commissioners, for a national object, would be dis- posed to sell it to the Government at 5,0007. an acre, although it sells for much more; and I acted, in my calculation, on those data; and of course I said, if five acres of land near the Museum cost 240,000./., suppose you have five acres at Ken- sington, at 5„000Z. an acre, it will be 25,000/. ; I entered into a calculation also, that although you would occupy only five acres with buildings, it would be necessary very likely to pay more, because of the roads and the streets we should cut off, and the landlord would not sell you exactly what you wanted, without you paid some compensation for what was occupied by roads. 251. What would be the comparative cost of an entirely new building upon a new site, and the extension of the present buildings? — That is given in my report at page 14, Paper 87. 252. Mr. Stirling.] You have stated twice that it would be an advantage to the natural history collections themselves, if they were removed to a separate place, without, I think, assigning any reason for that opinion ? — It would be so because, first of all, the natural history collections would have the advantage of having more room to them- selves, which is a thing of very great importance for large collections ; and next, because in the case of the annual estimates, I think it is much more easy to persuade the House of Commons to vote various small estimates, even although put together they might come to more than one estimate, than to have a large estimate moved for and discussed, as it is discussed naturally when it is a large one. Then, again, in the case of building, you would find it much more easy to persuade people to vote a certain sum of money for an increase of space for one collection, than to vote money for an increase of space for the whole Museum ; from the very fact that the Museum is so large, many people say, Have they not room enough with what they have ? but they do not say so of a comparatively small building ; these are reasons which practically, I think, tell in favour of separation. 253. Mr. Walpole.~\ Would not the immediate expense of providing a new building for the natural history collection, which would render it neces- sary to have that building large enough for the present collection, and also for additions to be made to it, be greater than retaining the collec- tion in the British Museum, and enlarging it as circumstances might require ? — I believe not ; for the ground about the ^Museum would cost so much more. 254. Sir George Grey.] Two hundred and forty thousand pounds would be the immediate expense if you purchased land near the Museum? —Yes. 255. And, in addition to that, there would be the buildings immediately requisite ? — Yes. 256. Amounting altogether to half a million in four years ? — Yes. 257. Mr. Walpole.] Over and above that, if you removed the whole of the natural history collections bodily, you must erect a much larger building than if you added to the existing build ing 1 — Assuming that the valuation of the land at ' Kensington SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 21 Kensington is a correct one, you could have eight acres ofground there for 40,000 L, or say 50,000 1. ; but eight acres of ground near the Museum would render it necessary to cross over to the south side of Russell-street, and it would cost ten times as much. 258. That is the cost of the ground ? — Yes. 259. If you removed the whole of the collec- tion bodily, according to Professor Owen's desire, of having a building large enough to cover a space of five acres and a half for the natural his- tory collection, there would be an immediate expense for building, independently of the cost of the ground, greater than by making an addi- tion to the existing building ?— Certainly ; if you build all at once. 260. Sir Philip Egerton.] Although the sum of money is large for the purchase of the land adjacent to the Museum, yet those houses which are not immediately required would pay an annual rent in the meantime ? — Yes. 261. Mr. Lowe.] Why do you think that you could obtain that land at Kensington for 5,000 I. an acre ? — Because I have been told so by those who are supposed to know about it. 262. Mr. Walpole.] Suppose you were asked 10,000 1, or 20,000 I. an acre, would you be sur- prised?— Even 10,000 l, and even 20,000 I. an acre Would be less than the other. Panizzi, Esq. 5 Jnne i86e. Veneris, 8° die J unit, 1860. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Ayrton. Sir Philip Egerton. Mr. W. H. Gregory. Sir George Grey. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Knight. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Puller. Lord Stanley. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Tite. Mr. Walpole. Mr. W. H. GREGORY, in the Chair. Antonio Panizzi, Esq. ; further Examined. 263. Chairman.] Have you any observations to make with reference to the evidence that was given by you at the last sitting of this Com- mittee.? — I have ; when I was asked about the building which I suggested should be erected joining the present print room, on the understand- ing that the print room should be removed, and its floor. lowered to the present level of the main building, whether it would stop the gateway that there is there, through which you get into the quadrangle where the new library is built, I said yes ; but I was mistaken ; that gateway will not be stopped ; the gateway will go under the pro- posed new building, exactly as it goes under the Egyptian room. 264. That will be all in the space marked 31 ? — Exactly so. 265. Did you say that ydu would also cover in the space marked 32 ? — No ; that was never men- tioned, I think ; if you, will look at the plan of the basement floor, you will see that from what is numbered 32 there is a gateway marked ; ' it will be just the same under the suggested build- ing; it would not, therefore, divide the depart- ment of antiquities into two, which will continue as it is now, all united. 266. Sir Philip Egerton.] Would the supposed building interfere with the plan adopted by the trustees for the erection of studies ? —Yes, cer- tainly ; it is planned on the supposition that you build a room for antiquities, with skylights, as the antiquarians want. If you were to build on the top of this new building, and do away with 0.96. the lights, you might build either studies or any- thing else on the second floor. 267. I understand you to say, that, providing the supposed new building were lighted with side-light instead of skylight, the studies adopted by the trustees might be built ? — I think so ; at the same time I do not know whether going high might not interfere with the other lights of the Museum ; that I cannot tell ; but, except for that reason, if building a second, storey was not to interfere with the present lights, there is no doubt that it could be built with side-lights, 268. Chairman.] You have at the present time a collection of ethnography in the British Museum ? — Yes, we have. 269. By ethnography, I presume you mean a collection of arms, implements, dresses, and idols of different nations ? — Yes; and particularly Indian and American. I do not think there is any European ; there are such things from Peru, Mexico, and from some parts of the East Indies. 270. Are you aware that ethnographical col- lections are combined in some modern museums together with the collections of antiquities and coins ? — In small museums, where they put many things together, because they are small and second- rate museums, I think they are. 271. At Dresden and Munich ? — I do not recol- lect that at Munich they are together with the antiquities. 272. Is it your opinion that the ethnographical collections ought to be retained in the British Museum ? — I think not ; I think there ou at the Museum, they are connected With it; they are as much connected with sculptures as with paintings. The question may be put under dif- ferent aspects ; but I am for keeping them, chiefly from a feeling of gratitude to Mr. Payne Knight and to Mr. Cracherode. 315. From sentiment rather than for any other reasons ? — Very much so. 316. Have you considered the number of the painted portraits which are also in the British Museum ? — Yes ; those have come there as pre- sents chiefly, if not all of them ; and I think that those portraits might be more usefully and better placed somewhere else, particularly now that there is a national portrait gallery. I think that if the Trustees had had the power, they would not have wanted inclination to make use of the room which is occupied by those portraits, for objects more immediately under their care. 317. Are those portraits of eminent men, which it would be desirable to add to the collection in Great George-street ? — They are mostly portraits of distinguished persons. 318. Could they be removed without an Act of Parliament ? — I believe not ; there is that clause in the 26 Geo. II. , which has been separately referred to, to the effect that those things which are put in that repository are to remain there to all posterity. 319. That Act of Parliament which was re- ferred to in a former question would apply to por- traits and to everything else which it might be thought fit to remove ? — To everything. 320. With regard to those collections which you would remove, first of all take the ethno- graphy, what space would that give you ? — If you take the plan of the second storey, marked plan 3, and look at No. 3 in the plan, that is the ethno- graphical room. 321. Sir George Grey.~] What is the size of that room ? — Ninety-three feet long, by twenty- three, giving an area of 2,139 feet. 322. Chairman.'] What would you gain by the removal of the mediajval collections ?— The me- diaeval is the next room ; that room marked 9 is mediaeval and British ; its area is 4,222 feet. 323. Sir George Grey.'] Do you propose to re- move all the articles in No. 9 ?^*— All those which are not classical; but there are, perhaps, some classical ones. 324. How much room would you gain by moving those things which you think ought to be removed? — Almost the whole of that room is occupied by things which I think ought to be removed. 325. Chairman.] I believe you contemplate, in case those collections were removed, using that room for the purpose of a proper exhibition of coins ? — Exactly. 326. Medals and gems ? — Yes; merely for the reason that there is a medal room close by ; and that that medal room is constructed in a particular manner on account of security. It would be very convenient if an exhibition of medals was to take place, that it should be close to the officers of the department to which the medals exhibited belong. 327. Mr. Tite.] The medal room is No. 8, is it not ?— No. 8 and No. 4, 328. Chairman.] Would you gain any addi- D .$- tional 26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Panizzi, tional space by the removal of the portraits? — If Esq- you* remove the portraits, you would get all the ' room which would be afforded by the blank wall 8 June over t k e p resges ; the portraits are hung up above i860. ^ e p regaes m t he i on g ornithological room. 329. Sir Philip Egerton.] Will you have the goodness to read to the Committee the resolution . of the sub-committee of Natural History on the 18th of March, 1857, with reference to the oil paintings in the ornithological gallery ? — " Re- solved 1st, that it would be extremely desirable that the pictures, now occupying the upper parts of the walls of the eastern zoological gallery, should be removed, and dispersed over other available vacant spaces, in various apartments of the museum, and that the space thus vacated should be filled up with galleries for the exhibition of specimens of zoology, which cannot now be made available to the public." 330. Sir George Grey.'] Is there any other col- lection that you think might be beneficially re- moved from the Museum, besides those which you have mentioned, both to-day and at your last examination ? — I think not. 331. Mr. Wal.pole.~] The removals which you have last spoken of could not be made without the authority of an Act of Parliament ? — No re- moval at all, as I conceive, could be made without that authority. 332. Mr. Hardy.'] Is it your view that the re- moval is necessary simply to obtain room, or because it is objectionable to have all these col- lections at one place ? — For both reasons ; we want room ; but even if sufficient room could be pro- vided, I think it would be more advantageous for the advancement of scienoe and art that these collections should be separated. You cannot have large collections kept together ; they must become small collections ; they cannot all be kept up on a large scale. 333. Mr. Tite.] Would it be desirable to place the collection of Anglo-Roman antiquities on the site which you have suggested at Bromp- ton ? — I never suggested that site ; I say that you ought to remove them ; but where you are to take them to I have nothing to do with. It may be a question, and this is one of the debatable points, whether what is Roman found in Great Britain ought to go with the mediaeval antiquities, or whether it ought to remain with the classical ones. 334. There is the nucleus of a large and very interesting collection at the Museum ? — Yes. 335. And it is growing gradually ? — Yes ; the trustees in two or three years have spent 8,000 I. in mediseval antiquities. 336. Of that character ? — Yes ; and that is the reason why the classical ones are not progressing aa they might, which is one of the objections that I have to put so many things together. In one of my reports I state during what time they spent 8,000 1. The trustees bought ivories, very fine in their way, and very proper to have ; but if you buy mediaeval ivories, you do not buy Greek statues. 337. Sir Philip Egerton.] Will you explain why, in your opinion, collections kept together must necessarily be small collections, provided there is unlimited space and funds to keep them up ?-- ^Because they beoome unmanageable, and cannot all be well attended to. There cannot be unlimited space and funds to keep up large col- lections together, and collections not kept up must become small, in comparison with those that are ; I believe, moreover, that the public who come to visit the collections are bewildered by such a quan- tity of objects which have nothing to do with each other. A person may come to see a par- ticular collection, and, in point of fact, he finds impossible to do so. I have very often observed this. A gentleman may come to see the prints ; he passes through a room where there is natural history, and on his way he begins to stop to look at this beautiful bird, at that beautiful animal, or at this beautiful insect, and he loses his time; after having remained a short time in the print room he must go away, having been detained by objects which have come in his way of a totally distinct character. . That happens often ; and by having to make the most of the space, even in the natural history itself, the inconvenience is felt. I am for keeping the shells wherever the birds are ; I mean in the same establishment. For want of space at the Museum the birds are beau- tifully arranged in presses along the side walls, and the conchology is put in the middle of the same room ; not only I, but the officers of the department, will tell you that the visitors never see well either the shells or the birds, because if they come to see the birds, they begin to look a t some beautiful shell, and vice versa, without giving proper attention to either. If there was space, and the two collections were in separate rooms, both would be seen much better, at greater advantage, and would moreover be more easily increased, so as not to divide two small collections. 338. The latter part of your answer has refer~ ence, has it not, to the crowded state of the natural history collections ? — I gave the second part of my answer, as an illustration of how visitors are in- terfered with and bewildered, even when the ob- jects kept together they come to see are of the same class, and homogeneous; and, « fortiori, they are interfered with when these objects are totally different. If you are to have a gallery of birds, you ought to have nothing on the floor of that gal- lery but what belongs to birds. If you have space, even such objects ought to be kept separate. 339. Is there any reason why such accommoda- tion should not be provided, by an extension of the buildings, at the British Museum ? — I thought I gave my opinion upon that at my last examina- tion ; I think you cannot do it, as you have not anything like space enough to build upon to the extent required. 340. Sir George Grey.] Would your object be attained without having a separate access to each of the rooms containing separate collections, so as to prevent the persons coming to see one collection, from passing through a room containing a portion of another collection ? — It might be, but I do not know. 341. Would your object be effected without going that length?— Yes; it might to a certain extent; but I speak of the building as it is; I do not know how you can have access to each separate collection without considerably alter- ing the building. 342. Mr.Walpole.] There was one answer which you gave just now, and I should like to know whether you were quite correct in it. I under* stood you to say that the purchase of mediaeval antiquities, to the extent of 8,000 I., had interfered with the purchase of Greek sculpture ; were you quite accurate in that answer, or, in other words, have the sums which the Trustees are empowered by Parliament to expend in antiquities, and which they, have expended upon mediaeval antiquities, precluded SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM, 27 .preluded them from purchasing Greek sculpture, which they desired to purchase ?— There was a special grant, on one occasion, of 2,000 1, and it is quite clear that you cannot go again to the Government for 2^000/. more in the same year; I have.never known that more than a special grant has been given for the same department ; I do not know how you could go on collecting both, except by increasing your grants considerably. 343. Will you be good enough to state whether, in point of fact, the expenditure made by the trustees upon any specimens of mediaBval anti- quities, has precluded them from purchasing spe- cimens, or pieces of Gxeek sculpture, which they thought it desirable to purchase ? — I cannot spe- cify at this moment any Greek sculpture, but I am certain that classical antiquities must have been refused ; when people come and offer them, if there are no funds, and there has been already an extraordinary grant, the officers say it is of no use proposing them ; but that offers have been made and xiot entertained, I have no doubt , 344. Mr. Hardy.~\ Do you think that the sepa- ration would lead to a larger grant being made, because, as I understood you, Dy separating the collection, greater grants would be required than at present, and I understand that by separating, you wish to improve each collection by increasing it ; and then the expenditure upon each would be- come greater by the separation '< — It would. 345. Do you expect to .get, by separate grants from the House of Commons more than you get now? — Yes; I think it is more easy to get three sums of 30,000 1. for three distinct institutions than one of 60,000 /., for one only. 346. Mr. duller.'] Have not the persons who take an interest in natural history, in ethnography, and in mediaeval antiquities, an advantage in having these collections at the British Museum, in the way of obtaining grants of public money, the trustees, including all the chief officers of state whom you could hardly expect to attend the councils of all the different learned bodies, or to manage different institutions, if they were scat- tered about 1 — The great officers of state attend the British Museum very seldom; they come only on occasions when there is some large grants to be asked of Parliament, either for building or for increasing the establishment to a very great ex- tent ; for sueh a particular purpose I dare say they would go somewhere else ; such cases occur per- haps once in two or three years. . 347. Mr.Monekton'.Milnes.'] Does it ever occur that these Trustees, who hold high public offices, come to the Board on occasions on which it is required that they should vote, without having attended the previous meetings at which the sub- jects have been discussed ? — Those great officers of state never come, except when they are espe- cially requested to come, and when they are in- farmed of the object-of meeting, and of the state of the question, by their colleagues ; whenever the Trustees want, I will suppose, to increase the building, and it happened on the very last occasion, they request the Government to at- tend a meeting; they had applied to the Go- vernment .repeatedly before, on such occasions, under different Governments ; the Chancellor of the Exchequer has attended, and also the First Lord of the Treasury. I remember Lord Aber- deen attending on one, occasion; but as no pro- gress was made in .getting funds," it was thought again necessary to request the Government to attend and see the wants of the Museum, and they 0.96. did come twice. They passed a resolution once, j_. Panizri, on the motion of the present First Lord of the Esq. Treasury, Lord Palmerston, that it was expedient not to remove from the British Museum the 8 June antiquities, library, and obj ects of art, — with a few * 860. exceptions, they said, F believe having in their minds the collections of mediseval art. That resolution was passed by a majority of 13 to 1, and it excluded the natural history from that sort of assurance that it should not be removed. Then there was a Committee appointed about the value of the land round the Museum, and at Kensington ; finally, those same Members of the Government (I believe the same, or one or two more) came, and then Lord Palmerston moved that it was expedient to remove the natural history from Bloomsbury. The Government did not volunteer their opinion ; they came because they were asked to come ; without them, it would be impossible to build ; they must take the responsi- bility of bringing it before the House of Commons, and obtaining a vote of money. 348. Therefore, by the present constitution of the British Museum, it is quite possible that a certain number of official Trustees may come to any one given meeting, and supersede the opinions of those gentlemen who regularly attend the meet- ings, and who might naturally be supposed to be the most competent to direct the decisions ? — I have never known that happen ; but I have known four Members of the Government to come, namely, the Duke of Somerset, the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer, the Secretary af State for the Home Department, and the Secretary of State for the Foreign Department, who are not only Trustees in virtue of their office, but elected Trustees, and amongst the most useful members of the standing committee, and the most diligent in attendance, when they are not in office ; and when they came to vote on the very last ^occasion, they came there, not only bringing all the weight of their official character to bear upon the question of expense, but their knowledge as Trustees of the subject under discussion ; and I am certain that all the Trustees will admit that those four Trustees know as much of the management of the Museum, and its wants, as any other of the Trustees. 349. Mr. Puller.J Has not Lord John Russell moved the British Museum Estimates for the last year ? — Not since he has been in office ; he has not time now. Mr. Walpole will do the Trustees the favour to move them this year ; he moved them last year ; when Mr. Walpole was in office, it was Lord John Bussell who moved them. 350. Before moving them, did not Lord John Bussell attend the meetings of the Trustees, and make himself acquainted with the matter? — Quite so. 351. And I dare say Mr. Walpole has done the : same thing ? — Yes ; much more than other Trustees ; when the .estimates are prepared, the Trustee who has to move those estimates,, comes- privately to me, and goes over them minutely, examining why there is to be any increase, or any difference from the estimates of the year before; those estimates, so prepared, go before the Finance Committee, at which the gentleman who has to move the estimates,..attends, and when they have passed through the Finance Committee, they go through the Standing Committee, and at the meet- 1 ing of that Committee that gentleman again at- tends ; he is more conversant with the estimates than many of the Trustees. 352. Do you think it would be so easy to get D 2 persons, 2S MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Panizzi, persons, in the position of Lord John Russell or Esq. Mr. Walpole, to attend all the different meetings, ~~ — if these collections were scattered about; the 8 June natural history in one place, the ethnographical a °° 0, collections in another, and the mediaeval collections in another; could they make themselves tho- roughly acquainted with the whole subject so as to bring it properly before Parliament? — There is a special constitution of the Trustees of the Museum; I see other establishments without trustees, and they get their estimates; smaller estimates require less trouble and time than large ones. 353. Sir George Grey.] "Would not the removal of those collections necessarily lead to an alter- ation of the constitution of the Trustees under whom they are placed ? — That is a question be- yond my province as the servant of the Trustees. 354. Mr. Lowe.] Would it be desirable that some person connected with the Government should be a Trustee, upon the understanding that he should attend the meetings of the Trustees ? — The best alteration in the management of the Museum, supposing the trust to be preserved, would be, to have another person in my position, as principal librarian ; there ought to be a much higher person than I am; he ought to be a Trustee by, virtue of his office, and I should say even chairman of the Trustees, and have a great deal to say to everything that was done there ; it is not a humble individual like myself who can manage that establishment. 355. Do you think it would be desirable that any member of the Government, for the time being, should be present, as a matter of official duty, at the meetings of the Trustees? — Certainly; the very constitution of the Museum is founded upon that ; that the Government should have the whole control of it ; in fact, the only thing that is wanted is that some Member of the Govern- ment should make it is business to attend there regularly. 356. Mr. Puller.] A good deal has been said to-day as to the distinction between Christian and Pagan art, and if I understood you correctly, you expressed an opinion that all objects of Christian art and Christian antiquities should be separated from the Museum, and placed in a separate col- lection somewhere else ? — Yes, that is my opinion, I suggested that distinction between Christian and Pagan art as the readiest of all. 357. Do you mean that merely as a chronolo- gical separation, or do you consider that there is any real principle upon which you would divide them into two collections?— I would take that distinction, as it is more easy ; at the same time, I also think that the feelings which inspired Greek artists were different from the feelings which in- spired Christian artists, particularly in the fine time of fine art in Italy. I do not think that the sculptor of Venus and the painter of the Madonna were moved by the same feelings ; on that prin- ciple also I venture to suggest the separation. 358. In considering the distinction between the Museum and the library, I presume you would consider the library as the nucleus, and as that which was rather to regulate what should be con- nected with it ? — I do not know that ; it so hap- pens that at the Museum it is so, and that was the feeling of the founders of the Museum, as is proved by the fact, they put, at the head of that Museum, an officer who is designated in the Act of Parliament "Principal Librarian ; " and whether it is regarded as a library, or as a museum of an- tiquities or of natural history, its chief officer has that designation ; what is more, when the establishment was set on foot at first, the appoint- ments and the titles of the inferior officers were settled, I understand, by Lord Hardwicke, who was Lord Chancellor ; the keeper of natural history was appointed an under librarian, and the keeper of antiquities is an under librarian, in the language of the Museum; it seems that they thought more of the library than of anything else. 359. Is there not a convenience in having his- torical monuments in close contiguity to the library, so that persons who are studying any particular subject may pass easily from the library to the Museum, and study those inscriptions, or coins, or other historical monuments, in connexion with the books they are reading? — I am dis- tinctly of that opinion, and I have always been ; I have often urged it as a decisive reason against separating the antiquities from the library, be- cause I have always said that a large library, like that of the Museum, is necessary for the study of such collections as you have been men- tioning. I have, at the same time, said that I thought that if the natural history was removed, it did not want to have such a collection of books at hand as that of the British Museum, but that it wanted a technical library, which ought to be the finest library of natural history that could possibly be put together. 360. Would not that apply to the mediaeval as well as to the classical ? — I think not ; it seems to me that it is not necessary to consult so many books, and to have recourse to so many authori- ties for the Pagan antiquities. At the same time, the early Christian art may occasionally require a great deal of research, and consulting a great many works. 1 have never considered the ques- tion in that light ; but, if it is necessary, they ought to have a fine library for that purpose. It would be of great public advantage that there should be public libraries in various parts of Lon- don connected with special collections. 361. Chairman.'] You would, therefore, re- ferring to the question put to you by Mr. Puller, in separating these collections, attach a special library to the collection so removed ? — Certainly. 362. Mr. Puller.] I did not mean with refer- ence to the history of art, but with regard to general history ; your classical monuments have fot upon them, and the Assyrian monuments ave upon them various inscriptions which throw a light upon questions of general history, not speaking of the history of art? — Yes, I under- stood it so. 363. Would not that apply in the same way to any of the mediasval monuments ? — It seems to me not so much ; but, as I said before, I have not considered the two questions distinct from each other. I think it is more difficult, and requiring more research to illustrate well the great Greek monuments for instance, than to illustrate well the sepulchres or churches of the middle ages. At the same time, when you come to such ques- tions as the catacombs at Rome, then you require to extend your inquiries very far. It is difficult to say what may not be wanted. 364. Mr. Tite.] Have you had an actual esti- mate made, by any experienced person, of the cost of purchasing a site at the British Museum at 240,000 I., or is that only an approximation derived from the rating? — The calculation, as I have stated, has proceeded on the rating, on what some of SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 2 9 of the houses have been sold at, at what some of them have been let for, and then I asked privately the opinion of a very eminent builder, and of course I consulted our own architect particularly, who, when that building was" proposed at the north end of the British Museum, had valued the houses that were to be purchased, which were 16 in number ; and for that part which is opposite to the Museum, I- rested the estimate on the rating, and on the rent of some of the houses, and parti- cularly on the value of the ground which was purchased to open Endell-street. 365. There has been no estimate made by the architect of the cost of purchasing the site, and to which the 240,000/. applied? — None ; but he has seen the estimate, and thinks it right I must say also that the Government, some years ago, had an estimate made for a building on the east side of the Museum, and that estimate, I know, is either at the Commissioner of Works' or at the Treasury. The Committee can have it, and they will then have the opinion of the surveyor of the Government, who valued the site, for the informa- tion of the Treasury. 366. There has been no analogous estimate made, recently, under similar circumstances, of the site to which you have adverted ? — No ; the one I allude to is a recent estimate; that is, a few years ago. 367. How, many years? — Three or four. 368. Mr. Puller-I Has any estimate been made of what the expense of moving the whole of the natural history collections to Kensington would be? — Never; I have never had any estimate made, and never heard of any estimate of the kind being made. 369. Has any estimate been made of the cost of providing such a separate collection, and a separate library of natural history? — Yes; I had the honour to state, at my last examination, that the Trustees requested Professor Owen to give an idea ; and he consulted Mr. Jones, the present keeper of the printed books. Since I gave my evidence, in which I stated that I thought such a library would cost more than 20,000/., I have been told that, perhaps, it would not be necessary to go so far, as 1 believe it will be necessary, in order to have such a library as ought to be attached to a great esta- blishment like that which I hope to see erected for natural history. It was stated the other day that there are certain theses and certain tracts, which are not to be procured. I stated that with money you would find them almost all ; one in a thousand may not be found ; but I have been told, by a very competent judge, that he thought I had overstated the case. Take as an instance the memoirs in the transactions of societies; to find them separately, is very difficult, _ but my opinion is, that when you form such a library as we "now speak of, you ought to buy a complete set of those transactions ; I would have the whole of the transactions of the Royal Society, to make use of such communications, and such articles in them as relate to natural history ; but I would not buy separately those on natural history only; it would no doubt make a great difference in the expense if you buy all the acts of societies ; but I think they ought to be bought ; it is more easy, however, to procure complete sets than only such fragments as you may want. The same must be said of literary and scientific journals. Both the library and the cost would be very large if these views were adopted, as I think they ought to be. 370. Chairman.'} Will there not be a very 0.96. increasing library under these circumstances ? — Yes, it must be so ; all libraries must be kept up, or they become second rate, like other collections. 371. I suppose you are aware that opinions have been expressed, both in the press and in the periodicals, and in examinations before Com- mittees, as to the expediency of having lectures given in the British Museum? — Yes; I have heard of that. 372. Do you imagine that the opinion is, that those lectures should be given for the benefit of the scientific portion of the community, or do you imagine that the opinion is, that those lectures should be for the benefit of perspns less highly educated ? — I really do not know ; but from what I have seen in hjs address as President of the British Association at Leeds, Professor Owen stated that it would be for the advantage of the public in general, and not exclusively of scien- tific men ; I believe what he said came to that ; I do not recollect any other expressions of opinion by any one else on this subject. 373. Do you believe that the British Museum is an institution more for the higher branches of science, rather than for elementary instruction? — It is not, certainly, for elementary instruction } but I think it is for popular intellectual amuse- ment and interest, as well as for people learned in sciences; lectures were never contemplated when the Museum was founded. 374. I think, in an answer that you gave at the commencement of your examination the other day, you led the Committee rather to suppose that your opinion was unfavourable to the de- livery of lectures in the British Museum? — It is so. 375. Will you favour the Committee with your reasons for that unfavourable opinion, and will you divide your answer into two heads ; first of all, as to the difficulties and inconveniences which you think would arise from the delivery of lec- tures being confided to the officers of the different departments in the British Museum; and secondly* as to the difficulties and inconveniences which might arise from lectures being delivered in the British Museum by persons not connected with the establishment ? — First of all, there is an in- convenience which applies to. both ; whether you have lectures delivered by the officers of the Museum or by strangers, you must find space for lecture-rooms. That question is independent of the persons who are to deliver the lectures? the next is to see how many of those lectures are to be delivered ; if by officers, how much of their time it will take which they otherwise give to their duties as keepers of the collections ; then whether it is better that they should be delivered by officers of the Museum or by strangers. I will state to the Committee my objections to both. The officers of the Museum are the keepers of their departments ; they are to keep that repo-. sitory in order, for the use of the public, and for the advantage of scientific men, if they make use of it as scientific men, and for the amusement and interest of the public generally ; if they do their- duty as keepers, they have enough to do without attempting to lecture. Moreover, a man may be a very good keeper of a department, and have a. very good idea of order and of arrangement ; he may be a good administrator, and know how to make the people under him work and attend to their business ; but he may be a very bad lecturer^, and vice versa ; he must be a very extraordinary man who can attend to. both,. Then I think, as. d3 +- to, A. Panizzi, Esq. 8 June i860. 30 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Paiiizzi, E»q. 8 June i860. to baying a stranger to lecture, you would find it a source of continual bickering between the keepers and the lecturers; the lecturer would want, for instance, to have a specimen for his lecture, or two or three. The keeper must find it out for him, and must give it to him; and when it comes back, he will say it has been injured; or he will say it is of no use to have it out; it is only to give him trouble. These are not fanciful difficulties ; I know they have arisen at other institutions. On the whole, I think that the Museum ought to be limited to its original purpose, that of being a repository where the public, both the scientific public and the pub- lic at large, may obtain what information they can, according to their faculties, from the collections, just as they do from the books which they come to consult ; they ought to come and examine the antiquities, and the collections of natural history, not to be taught the use of them, but to make what use they can of them themselves. 376. As the British Museum stands, I presume there would be no means of delivering lectures, and that it would be necessary to build a theatre for that purpose ? — There are no means, and no site to build a theatre on. 377. Sir George Grey.'] Does the plan of ex- tension which was referred to in your former evidence, No. 21, in Return 379, of 1st July 1858, include provision for a lecture room or theatre, in which lectures could be delivered ? — No, there is no provision for a lecture room in any of those plans, except that of Professor Owen's' ; in his plan for building a great museum of natural history, he particularly sets apart a theatre for lectures. 378. I ask you whether, in any of the plans for an extension of the present Museum, sup- posing none of the collections to be removed, pro- vision has been made for the erection of a theatre in which lectures could be delivered ? — Never.* 379. Then an additional site would be required for that purpose ? — Yes ; I believe I mentioned that before, amongst other things for which site would have to be provided, independently of site for exhibition rooms. 380. Chairman.] With regard to the officers in the different departments, presuming that it was considered right that they should deliver lectures, it might be a source of considerable inconvenience, because some of the officers might consider that they were well qualified to deliver lectures, and others, on the contrary, might con- sider themselves hardly competent to do it, and yet would be unwilling to surrender the duty of delivering lectures on their particular branch to an inferior officer? — That might happen, no doubt. 381. Therefore that might give rise to un- pleasantness, and even to jealousy, in the different departments ?— I think so. 382. With regard to the introduction of strangers into the Museum, to deliver lectures, how far would the difficulty to which you have alluded, of handling the specimens in the Museum, be obviated by making use of diagrams, as, I think, they do generally in giving lectures, and then referring the audience to the different objects in the different parts of the Museum, which could be scarcely illustrated by the diagrams ? — I believe that that is the plan which is followed now by Professor Owen, who, by the terms of bis appointment, is obliged to deliver a course of 12 lectures ; and as there is no room to do so at the British Museum, he delivers those lectures in the Museum of Practical Geology, in Jermyn- street. He has diagrams prepared for his lectures, and his students come to the Museum afterwards, if they are interested in the lecture, to look at the objects about which he has lectured. 383. How far would it be possible, presuming that it might be expedient to give lectures, and to have some person not connected with the Museum to give those lectures, to close the Museum, say an hour earlier on Monday, which is considered to be the day on which the working men are most at liberty ; and to admit a certain number of visitors to those lectures, and subsequently to go round the collections when the Museum was cleared, to have the meaning of the lectures ex- plained by the lecturer himself ?-— Except out of the classes who do not require to work for their bread, and who have no occupation, I do not think you would obtain an audience ; the audience that Pro- fessor Owen has in Jermyn-street, consists of people of the higher classes, and he lectures at two o'clock. I see in the evidence given by the Bev. F. D. Maurice (answer 216), before the Committee on Public Institutions, that he saya that lectures ought to be delivered, not before eight o'clock in the evening, as that is the only time when the class of people to which he alludes, could attend the lectures ; at the same time, Mr. Bogers, another clergyman, says, on the same occasion, that you cannot convey Working men any distance at all from their homes after eight o'clock. (Answer 1286.) 384. I believe that the evidence given before that Committee was strongly in favour of the importance which the working classes attach to these lectures, which is proved by the fact of their being perfectly willing to pay for them, the ad- mission tickets being almost all disposed of for the lectures, not those delivered by Professor Owen, but lectures delivered at the Museum of Practical Geology ? — That is so ; but that was the evidence of the two gentlemen to whom I have referred. 385. You have stated that the lectures of Pro- 1 fessor Owen are attended chiefly by the higher classes ; are you not aware that evidence has been given of the great importance attached by the lower classes to lectures ; I mean the evidence given before the Committee on Public Institu-* tions ?— Yes, but not in the day time ; it would, therefore, be necessary that lectures would be delivered at the Museum, after eight, and much later than eight in the evening (Mr. Bogers'a answer, 1294). 386. Yes ; then the evidence given before that Committee is, that any lectures that are delivered must be delivered at a late hour of the day, pre- suming that they were intended to reach the class to which I have alluded ? — Yes, at night. 387. That would involve the question of light- ing up the Museum ? — Yes. 388. Which would involve considerable ex- 1 pense ? — Yes. 389. Which would involve also considerable risk ? — In some departments considerable risk ; in fact, it would not be safe to light up the Mu- seum, if you did not rebuild parts of it. 390. I presume the difference that you would establish between the Practical Museum of Geo- logy and the British Museum is this, that in case of any accident happening at the Practical Mu- seum of Geology, all the specimens there might be replaced, whereas the specimens in the British Museum are so invaluable, and many of them so unique SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 3» unique, that : you could not replace them ? — Un- doubtedly. 391. Therefore, your opinion is very strongly opposed to any plan that would necessitate the lighting up of the Museum at night?— For lec- turing particularly, and admitting large numbers of people. _ 392. Are you not aware that lectures are given in Paris in connexion with the different collections of natural history at the Jardin des Plantes ? — Yes. 393. What has been the success of those lec- tures ; are they well attended, and are they con- sidered of much importance in French opinion ? — I am not a naturalist, and I would rather not give an opinion on the subject. 394. Are there any lectures given on literary subjects at the Jardin des Plantes? — On scientific subjects; at the Ecole des Chartes they give lectures on diplomacy, in the sense of reading ancient diplomas, and old writings, and judging of the age of documents. Lectures are given also on archaeological subjects. 395. Sir George Grey.] I understand your ob- jection not to be to the delivery of lectures, but only to the delivery of them within the Museum ? — Just so. 396. Chairman.] Is it not your opinion that there are a great number of specimens in the British Museum, which I will not call duplicates, but which I may call superfluous, in the different departments ; for instance, have you not a con- siderable number of specimens in the department of antiquities which might be removed ; have you mot also a considerable number of duplicates among the coins ; have you not also a considerable number of duplicates in the library, and might not a number of what I will call those superfluous articles be removed to branch museums through- out the country j the British Museum still retain- ing its proprietary rights over those articles ? — I do not believe there are duplicates, to speak of ; but I will go seriatim through the different depart- ments you have mentioned, and since something was said about it at the last examination, I will say something about natural history too. As to antiquities, I do not think that any single object there could be parted with ; I cannot conceive a duplicate of antiquities. • 397. There are three or four statues, are there not, of Pasht, the Egyptian Goddess, which are perfectly identical ? — That is what I doubt ; I should like to know how they can be per- fectly identical ; I cannot conceive that possi- ble;. I cannot believe it is possible that there are two statues perfectly identical. Then there is the question about the coins ; there were what were called duplicate coins in the Museum in old times, and when the trustees bought collec- tions, I am sorry to say that they sold those so- galled duplicates — they have had many reasons afterwards often to regret it. It is very seldom that you have a duplicate of a coin ; I think ' it almost impossible, speaking of old coins ; next, a coin may be used, and with great advantage, even If a duplicate, for different purposes in the Mu- seum ; for instance, if you are going to have an exhibition of coins, which you ought to have, that would be a use to which duplicates might Ibe applied ; 1 do not know that there is any pos- sibility of finding duplicates, for instance, of gems, any more than of statues; I do not think there is such a thing. 398. Mr. Stirling.'] You have stated that the 0.96. Trustees have been in the habit of selling their ^ Panizei duplicate coins ; has that habit ceased of late? — ' Esq. ' It has ceased, and 1 think that the present Trus- .. tees see themselves, that it is not a right thing 8 June to do; I know that the keeper of the department i860. is decidedly against it. 399. The practice has been discontinued?- — Yes; I have, since my last examination, spoken to Mr. Hawkins, and asked him whether he had any coins to sell, and he said, none. 400. Sir Philip Egerton.] Can you give the date when the sale of coins ceased, and also of books ? — The last sale of boohs was in 1832, and the last sale of coins was in 1842. 401. Mr. Walpole.] It is some years since any sales have taken place in any department? — Many years. 402. Mr. Monehton Milnes.~] Have you always been opposed to the sale of books? — Always. With regard to natural history, the other day it was said that Dr. Gray, in his evidence before the Committee on Public Institutions, had stated that he had natural history objects to stock other museums with, and I said that I could' 1 hardly be- lieve it ; because, whatever is at the Museum, of natural history particularly, has been bought, and I could not believe that he would have bought duplicates to give away. I have been speaking to him about it since, and he has told me that what he would give to these Museums are not exactly duplicates, but almost duplicates. I pressed him to explain this, in the presence of Professor Owen. I said to him, " How can you have dupli- cates to send them away ? Why did you buy them at all ? " And he said, " 1 think one might do with less; but, at all events, there are certain old specimens in the Museum which would do very well for inferior museums, and I would part with them to get space, and I would buy better specimens." I said that that was a very good idea, if possible to carry it out. There are no duplicates, as you will hear, if you examine him and Professor Owen. I know also that a gentle- man under him, his broher, Mr. Robert Gray, has been questioned by Professor Owen on the subject. He takes care particularly of the birds, and he was asked, " How many duplicate birds can you dispose of?" He said, " Perhaps 100, if so many." I understand with regard to shells, it is just the same thing, and also with regard to in- sects. Therefore, I do not believe that there are duplicates to be disposed of in the zoology. Then, to refer to books, as to which there is a notion that there are so many duplicates : when I was keeper of the printed books, I often stated that there were not 10,000 volumes duplicates that could be disposed of; all the books that have been presented are never parted with as dupli- cates ; nor are printed books having manuscript notes. If a book has manuscript notes, and another has not, they are not duplicates ; if one is printed on large paper or on vellum, and another on small paper, they are not duplicates; if you deduct all these, the number of volumes of which I have had an account taken, and of which you could dispose, is perhaps 7,000 or 8,000. I call them volumes, but many of them are tracts, many of which are bound in a volume with other tracts, and if you were to take the duplicates out and sell them, you would have to take out probably a tract that would sell for fourpence or sixpence, and to rebind a book would would cost you per- haps three shillings. These duplicates are on all sorts of subjects ; and if you send to a library in D 4 the MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Panizzi, the country, say, either a parochial or a district Esq. library, a number of these volumes, they will be on subjects which will not be cared for, and be utterly 8 June useless ; they will be in all sorts of languages, 1 • and if they are rare books — suppose, for instance, we had to dispose of the first edition of Homer — of what use would it be to send such a book to such a library, where there are not, so to speak, the tools to make use of it. When you have made all these deductions, you will find that the books which might be parted with will be of no use whatever elsewhere, and a great loss to the Museum. First of all, there is the expense. Before you decide that a book is a duplicate, you must go over all the copies, look at them, and move them from the shelves, and then when you have done all this, there is the risk that you run of selling what you ought not to sell, besides moving and replacing a number of volumes to no purpose, as none may be parted with. There is the case of a book which is coming on for sale, with a very strong note against the Trustees and the then Principal Librarian who, probably, had no more to do with it than I should now have. It is a duplicate which was sold in 1769 of the " Advancement of Learning" of Lord Bacon — the dedication copy, with the handwriting in 20 places, they say — I have never seen it — of Charles I., printed at Oxford in 1649. It was sold with another book for a shilling, and it will now go for a high price. That is one of the incon- veniences resulting from parting with duplicates; and it has repeatedly happened that we have had to buy, at a very high cost, books which have been sold almost for nothing, and which, it is true, ought not to have been sold ; but they have been sold because duplicates were sold. 403. Sir George Grey.~] That was one book that was improperly sold as a duplicate, was it not, on account of its containing valuable manu- script notes? — It was; I mention this to show the danger there is, and I think it is almost una- voidable, of committing mistakes. The last sale of books took place in 1832; I had been at the Museum but a short time, and I had not then the influence that I had afterwards ; but still I remonstrated against the sale of the duplicates that were then going to be sold; I persuaded my predecessor to withdraw several from the sale, which are still at the Museum now ; they were already stamped as duplicates; they were withdrawn, and they are now at the Museum. 404. Mr. Monckton MilnesJ] Do you think that these objections would equally apply to drafting off a considerable number of books, under the name of duplicates, with which you could very readily dispense, for public collections in London, public libraries at Manchester, or in some other central place, where it would be desirable to find them ? — I have tried to explain, that the number of the books which could be transferred either definitively, or by keeping a right of property over them, is inconsiderable ; such books would be sent to libraries where there are not other books, by means of which the books that it may be supposed we should send would be made use- ful ; they would be of no use. I have suggested myself what I thought was a better use that could be made of the duplicate books in the British Museum ; but it would require special regulations, probably an Act of Parliament; and it is this: to lend to scholars, and to men of station, who could make use of them for the advancement of learning and science, such duplicates as we have of rare books, that one cannot expect to find in the country. I will go back to the case of Homer ; we have several copies — more than two, of the first edition of Homer — I would not part with any of them; but, if a gentleman at the Uni- versity of Durham were editing Homer, I should say it would be a very good use to make of one of the copies, to lend it him with proper precautions ; and so with respect to other rare duplicate works relating to Homer; that would be, to a certain extent, doing in a safer manner what is done in all the libraries in the world, where books are lent out ; this, however, causes always other in- conveniences ; first, that people who go to look at certain books in the library do not find them there when they go ; next, that many books are lost. One of the great objections to the sale of dupli- cates is, that for the security of the property you ought not to allow the Museum stamp to go out of the Museum, and whenever a book with that stamp on it is out of the Museum, it ought to be considered as being unlawfully out; there ought to be no doubt as to how it went out. 405. Chairman.'] "Would not that very objec- tion which you have mentioned to books going out of the library, apply to lending books to per- sons at a distance? — It could be done under special regulations; I daresay it would require an Act of Parliament; it ought to be done only in the case of a person of standing,* 1 a scholar who could explain to the Trustees his reasons for wanting certain rare books, and for what purposes he wanted them ; such books should not be lent to everybody ; and next, it should be understood that the borrower should give ample security for the value of the books. 406. Mr. Walpole.~] They should be lent only in entirely exceptional cases, with proper precau- tions, and security being taken ? — Yes ; with good cause shown, and ample indemnity to the Trustees. 407. Mr. Monckton Milnes.] "Would not a great part of the books which are called duplicates in the Museum be a totally different class of books; would they not be repetitions either of similar editions, or of similar copies which had come into the Museum by various channels, and of which there could be no possible object in having more than one copy ? — Those are not duplicates ; duplicates, in the sense of all biblio- graphers are identical copies ; for example, the plan which you have before you, and the one that I have in my hand, are duplicates ; but, if there was another plan which was half an inch wider than this, it would not be a duplicate. 408. Upon what principle should you be more anxious to secure in a public library several copies of any particular book than any private bibliographer might wish to secure in his own library, by procuring the best possible copy, and when he has got it, getting rid of the inferior copies? — I am not for procuring and keeping several copies ; I am for keeping several editions, and even all editions, which is a very different thing from copies. The multiplicity even of mere reprints shows how popular an author was at the time ; for instance, when Ariosto published his poem — I mention this because I have had occasion to make inquiries about it — there were numberless editions of the same size, by the same printer, and of the same year, which have not been described, because bibliographers have not seen copies of them ; by seeing them I think I have proved satisfactorily that of that poem more than 100,000 copies were printed in 10 years ; now that tells SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 33 tells you how popular it must have been; and it also tells you how cultivated Italy was in those days, when that book was so common. And so it is in the case of-^Hodern literature here ; the many editions, for instance, of Lord Macaulay's History. Although they are reprints, many of them, I think the British Museum ought to have them all, in order to show to posterity how popu- lar that work was in its day, and how much it was read. Moreover, if you do not find all these helps to literary history in a great institution like the British Museum, where will you expect to find them ? 409. Mr. Walpole.] Is there not this broad distinction between the library of the British Museum and other libraries, that other libraries may be made use of for the purposes of study, and two consecutive editions of Lord Macaulay's works might be equally advantageous for those purposes, confined to them ; whereas the British Museum is a repository for all these different books, and different editions of books, which it may be very advantageous for the student hereafter to take notice of? — Certainly; and if the Committee will allow me to say as to English books, that is books in English, including those of America, and works relating to England, I always, when I was keeper of the printed books, acted on the principle of procuring them all when I had the means : the Museum is the library of the English nation, and there ought to be in that library every book that was printed, either by Englishmen or in English, or relating to England. 410. Mr. Monchton Aiilnes.l "Would you carry that to the extent of saying, that you would wish to have a copy of every edition of " Uncle Tom's Cabin " ? — Yes, most certainly ; why not 1 411. Mr. Puller^ Is there not very often a very considerable difference between one edition and another; does not the author change his mind sometimes ? — Perfectly so ; but I say that even if it is a reprint, as far as English books go, it ought to be in the British Museum. 412. Take the case of " Paradise Lost," which is in 12 books; the first edition was in 10?— Yes, and it is a very difficult question to know which is the first edition, as there are copies with five different title pages. I have found myself, that of the folio English Bible of 1539, there are seven different editions, and if you had the books on this table, on first look at them cursorily, you would not find out that they were different at all, so much they resemble each other. I have also found the same to. be the case with the Prayer 3ooks of the time of Edward the 6th. I do not know how many editions there are recently dis- covered, and many more may be found ; but the fact that they are not duplicates shows how much that Bible was used in those days, and how much that Prayer Book was used, being reprinted so often. 413. Sir George Grey.'] Would not that de- pend a little upon the size of the edition ?— They are all alike. 414. I meant the number published of each edition? — We know very well that no man prints fewer copies of a book, when it sells well, than 750 ; publishers however print many more when the demand is large ; in some cases we know exactly the number that have been struck off. 415. Mr. Stirling.'] What do you do in the case of different editions of stereotyped books, such, for instance, as the case of a shilling Para- dise Lost, published in 1858, by Mr. Eoutledge, 0.96. and reprinted by him in 1860, with a new title-page A. JPanizzL and a new date ; would you think it necessary, Esq. knowing the fact, to preserve both of those edi- ■ tions ? — Yes ; upon this principle, that it is better 8 June to have 1,000 volumes too many than 100 too few. i860. 416. Mr. Monchton Milnes.] Would you attach any weight to the collateral argument, that in a public library like that of the British Institution, it is not unadvisable to have several copies of the same book, as several people may want to read them at the same time '! — Certainly ; and we act upon that; there are many books of which there are duplicates on purpose; for instance, dictionaries ; and that is the reason why I stated before, that some of the duplicates which had been sold have had to be re-purchased at a larger cost than they sold for. Of Liddell's Greek Dictionary there are three copies in the reading room at the disposal of the readers, and one copy inside, which, of course, any student may ask for, when it is taken to him, if the other three are in use ; but there was a young gentleman, who I suppose was preparing for examination, and who wanted another copy of Liddell ; I showed that there were perhaps 24 Greek dictionaries in the reading room; but he complained to the trus- tees that he could not have, as often as he asked for it, a copy of Liddell's Dictionary, although there were so many Greek dictionaries, besides four copies of Liddell's, at his disposal. 417. Chairman.] With reference to the ques- tion that you were asked by Mr. Stirling, whether you considered that a reprint of one of Bout- ledge's stereotyped works was necsssary for the Museum ; do you not imagine that those stereo- typed works, which are identical with each other, except perhaps in date, might very well be employed in the manner I first suggested, that of being lent to district libraries ; say, in the metro- polis, the British Museum retaining its proprietary rights over those books? — Yes; but there are so few of them, and their money value is so little ; to part with them would require large alterations in the catalogues, and the account you would have to keep of books worth a shilling, would cost you three or four times their value. 418. I will take this particular instance to which Mr. Stirling has referred, as an exemplify cation, that if there are books which I may say are identical, merely differing as to the date of the edition, many of which would be of con-r siderable value, I presume, as to local libraries, it would be desirable for them to have them ? — I do not believe that there are works or volumes of value worth speaking in this category ; there is the risk, on the other hand, that you run of selling as a duplicate what is not a duplicate, or sending away a duplicate which ought not to be parted with. 419. Under the law of copyright, do you ob- tain a copy of each fresh edition of every work ? — We ought to obtain a copy of each fresh edition, with additions or alterations ; that Copyright Act, I suppose the Committee are aware, gave me a great deal of trouble, when I began to enforce it ; it had never been enforced before ; now it goes on very well ;• I believe however, that we do not receive some editions which are duplicates in every respect, except just in the date ; and, ac- cording to the Copyright Act, that is no doubt an alteration which would oblige the publisher to give it ; however, the Act has never been so strictly enforced ; if the volume comes, very good ; if not, it is passed over. E 420. In 34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Panizzi, 420. In these various departments of natural Esq- science which are proposed to he removed, are there collections of books of reference kept for the "ap? ne use of each department, independently of the i860. general library ? — Yes, and I will tell you how that arose ; *the officers of the several departments often asked for books from the library, and they kept them in their rooms, which interfered with the readers who wanted those books ; to remedy this, 1 began choosing duplicates, and sending them to the various departments for their use : after I had done that, I received a requisition from one of the keepers who wanted me to buy duplicates for him. (I was then keeper of the Printed Books and I had the purchasing of the books) ; it was a large sum that would have -been required to comply with such a demand, and I said that the funds that I had at my disposal did not allow of it, because if I bought for him the books that I would have bought for the public must be fewer. The trustees were applied to, and they said that I was right, and that for the future the different heads of departments should insert in their esti- mates a sum for the purchase of books for the use of their departments ; this has been done ever since ; and in the estimates of the Museum you will see that there is 257. or 50/., and in some cases 100 1., for the purchase of books for the use of the departments. As far as natural history goes, I certainly think that if it was to be sent away, those books ought to go with it; they would be of use for the officers, but not of importance to form that great library for the natural history collections which I have mentioned. 421. Can you state at all the number of those books ? — No, I cannot. > 422. Or the approximate value of those different libraries ? — No, I cannot now ; but I can, if the Committee wish to know it, find out both the number of the volumes and the cost. 423. Independently of the consideration of space and expense, do you think it would be ad- visable to separate any of the collections from the remainder, in order to facilitate management, and to prevent collisions, as it were, between the de- partments ? — I think it would be of use ; the col- lisions between the departments are chiefly on account of want of room. 424. And jealousy on account of the dispropor- tion of the grants ? — Generally. First of all, as the place is, we all want room ; I speak of myself; when I was one of the keepers I always wanted something from my neighbour, and he acted in the same way with me. Then, with regard to the grants, there is always this, and the trustees feel it, as they want to be fair to everybody, that if they increase a grant for one department, they must increase it for another; for instance, for palaeontology, geology, and for mineralogy, they have increased the grants of late ; they found it was requisite and right to do it ; but they did it for all, in order that there should be no complaint. 425. Referring to the first part of my question, relating to the separation of the collections, I pre- sume you consider it would facilitate the manage- ment of the British Museum ? — I should think so. 426. Do you think those advantages might be secured without removing any of the collections, by simply trisecting the Museum, and placing each of the three divisions under distinct adminis- trations ; could not the manuscripts and books and prints he formed into a national library, under a principal librarian, and the antiquities into an archajological museum, under a director ; and the scientific collections into a museum of natural history, under a superintendent? — Who is to manage the whole of the Museum together ? I do not see, except there is a man of authority at the top, how we could go on with the Museum so administered. Originally it consisted exactly of three departments, with a keeper at the head of each ; the name of superintendent or director does not signify, but with a keeper to each ; but there was, moreover, a principal librarian to keep them together, and there are numberless occasions daily upon which no keeper of a department, and no head of a section or a division, could make regu- lations for the whole Museum. 427. What are the regulations to which you refer ? — I might refer, for instance, to the admis- sion of the public ; who is to be the responsible person for that, if anything is wrong? And who is to look after the general expenses of the establishment ; who is to look to all the servants doing their duty and being in their places ; who is to look after the charges, to see that they are right; who is to look after the architect, to see that he executes the orders which he receives from the Trustees; who is to carry on the cor- respondence relating to the Museum generally ; who is to prepare the accounts ; who is to be re- sponsible for the general administration and secu- rity of so large an establishment ? 428. Does not my question assume that these separate heads would be responsible for the de- tails of each of their departments ? — It could not be ; there would be three establishments ; you would have, for instance, three officers preparing three different estimates ; you would have three officers, one in each of these divisions, looking after the architect ; and in many cases more than one department is concerned. I think it is impos- sible, with my experience, that the Museum can go on without a head. I stated before what seems to me to be most important ; that so far from abolishing the head there ought to be a man of much greater weight and importance there than I am ; the executive ought to be strength- ened by union, not weakened by division. 429. Has the recommendation of the Royal Commission of 1848, that the Trustees should assume the functions of merely visitors, been acted upon in any way ? — I do not know of such a recommendation. 430. Mr. Wa/po/e.] I will call your attention to this passage in that Report of the Commis- sioners (p. 11): "The view which has met the approval of the majority of your Commissioners is, that an Executive Council should be formed, consisting of a chairman, to be appointed by the Crown, and who, if not already a trustee, should become a trustee by virtue of his office, of four members to be chosen by the Trustees from among their own number, and of two other members to be appointed by the Crown; one distinguished for attainments in literature, and the other for attainments in natural history; the former of whom should be considered as having a more immediate and special supervision of those depart- ments of the Museum connected with literature, namely, the library, the manuscripts, the prints, antiquities, and medals; and the latter of those departments which are devoted almost exclusively to natural history." Do you think that recom- mendation important in relation to the manage- ment of the Museum ? — It is a delicate thing for me to say that anything could be better done than it is done at the Museum ; the Trustees do their duty SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 35 duty and their business very well. I do feel, as far as the Trustees are concerned, that it would be very wrong in me if I was to find any fault with the present administration. What I should like is, Avhat follows the passage just read. That Report goes on, and says, " The chairman, in our opinion, should hold office, not for life, or merely during pleasure, but for a definite term, such as five years, being re-eligible if his re-appointment should be thought expedient. We think he ought to be a person of such position in society and in- fluence as may be naturally looked for in any one holding so important an office." That, I think, would be the right thing. 431. Your great object, being to get some per- son a3 chairman of the Trustees, responsible for the management of the whole Museum ? — Yes. 432. In that case, would there not be a danger that you would increase the expense of the Mu- seum considerably by having a paid officer there when you can do without him ? — The question is, whether we can do well without one ; what I suggest would imply the abolition of my office, as there would be a man who would have the direction of the Museum, with the necessary authority and the requisite powers. 433. Mr. Ayrton.~\ The functions which you just now described, are functions wholly inde- pendent of the scientific management of the Museum in the three departments adverted to by the Chairman, are they not? — Quite so; but, whoever occupies that position must be a man of education, and although not a great naturalist, or a great antiquarian, should be a man who has seen and knows what is done in other places, and what is good for the Museum ; it is absolutely necessary to have good and strong adminisration. 434. Of course a gentlemen possessing a know- ledge of art and science ; but he would, in point of fact, be discharging as an executive officer the functions of the Trustees, on their behalf? — When the Trustees are not there, it is presumed that I discharge them ; he would do it effectually. 435. But the officer performing the duties you have described would be an executive officer, representing and discharging the duties of the Trustees of the Museum, on their behalf ? — Yes ; but with their concurrence ; and I think that that would be the best thing that could be done for the British Museum. 436. Mr. Monckton Milnes.] Have you any means of informing the Committee what are the reasons why the recommendations of the Com- missioners of 1848 have not been carried out? — I really do not know; they could not be carried out without an Act of Parliament. 437. Have not several persons, who were mem- bers of that commission, since become Trustees of the Museum? — Yes, some of them, and a very good thing it has been. 438. May not the fact of those gentlemen hav- ing become Trustees of the Museum, in some degree account for the recommendations of that commission not having been carried out ? — I do not think that that has anything to do with it. 439. Do you think that the alterations which have taken place in the constitution of the Museum since that commission sat, have been generally useful and effective? — I think they have been very much so ; a standing committee has been appointed; that standing committee is now renewed every year, on the second Saturday in May, and the trustees on it are certainly names which carry weight, and they do attend ; 0.96. then, they have their sub-committees; and those sub-committees, also, whenever they are called upon to give an opinion, make repox"ts, attend, and take trouble ; the Trustees have the Museum now much more under their control than before that commission. 440. Do the other Trustees, who are not mem- bers of the standing committee, often interfere with its decisions ? — No ; when they have their ordinary meetings, I read to them a precis of all that has been done since their last meeting, and they have all the minutes on the table, so that they might come at any time to look at them ; from this precis, sometimes an argument arises on certain points ; but there has never been any- thing said to disapprove of what the standing committee have done, or to refuse to sanction any of their acts. 441. Do you think it advisable that the here- ditary principle should be recognised in donors to great national collections, so that the representa- tives of families should continue to have a right to act in the administration of the Museum ? — Clearly as to those who have it ; that is property which is as sacred as any other property ; whether it would be right in future to have the same prin- ciple admitted, it is not for me to say. The Sovereign has a right to appoint a trustee, one only ; the Museum owes more to the Royal Family of England, certainly, than to all the other donors put together, and therefore the com- pliment of passing an Act of Parliament, although it was done at a comparatively recent time to allow the Sovereign to appoint a trustee, I think was very proper ; whether it was right when you pur- chased Sir Hans Sloane's Museum lo give the Sloane family the power of appointing a trustee it is not for me to say. 442. Do you know of any other collection in Europe, in which that principle of extending the supervision of the collection to the inheritors of donors, has been in any degree admitted ? — No ; but in foreign countries all these institutions are under the Government direct ; they have no idea of trustees, or of a great institution, independent as a corporation, of the Government. 443. Would it not be possible to limit the supervision of these hereditary trustees to their interest in the special collections, without giving them any interest or authority in the general administration of the Museum? — I dare say it would be possible ; but I really cannot offer an opinion on the expediency of doing it. 444. Mr. TValpo/e.~\ In point of fact, the principal administration of the Museum is now vested in the standing committee, and not in the hereditary trustees, as they are called, unless they are chosen by the trustees as members of the standing committee ? — That is so ; the stand- ing committee has always some of the hereditary trustees among their body. 445. And when the trustees, who principally act in ithe management of the Museum, find that there are some of the hereditary members likely to be of use, they are appointed members of the standing committee ? — Yes. 446. I believe they are appointed members of several of the sub-committees, are they not? — Yes. 447. And the assistance which they can give to the other trustees may be of great use with regard to those matters which are delegated to them ? — Of very great use. 448. Mr. Monckton Milnes.] May we not con- e 2 sider A- Panizziy Esq. 8 June i860. 30 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Panizzi, Esq. 8 June i860. sider that this principal of hereditary trustees rather refers to a different arrangement of the Museum than now exists ; or else would it not be legitimate to continue the same power to the superintendent or principal, or any other gentle- man whose exertions had very much contributed to the greatness of the Museum ? —Each case must stand on its own merits ; those hereditary trustees have all been appointed under special Acts of Par- liament as each case arose. 449. Mr. Ayrton.~] Will you state to the Com- mittee how you would manage the Museum if it were divided into two Museums, in different parts of the metrepolis?— If it was in different parts of the metropolis, I do not see myself any difficulty ; the trustees should remain the same, and ad- minister the Museum, for instance, of natural history, as we have been speaking about that, in the locality where it was, as well as that por^ tion of the British Museum that we shall suppose remains in Bloomsbury. 450. If the Museum were divided, you would still have one set of trustees for both collections ? — As they exist, I should think it would render it more easy to carry out the alteration. 451. Would you have one supervisor for dis- charging the duties you have just described, or would you have one for each of the Museums ? — One for each, clearly ; a man could not run from one institution to the other. 452. Chairman.'] Presuming that the collec- tions of medieval art were to be sent down to Kensington, how would you arrange for the dis- charge of the functions of the trustees of the British Museum, with reference to the collec- tion, which would be sent from the British Mu- seum, and the collection that exists now at the Kensington Museum ? —I see no difficulty at all ; they would be trustees of both places. 453. Would they then assume functions with regard to collections which had not belonged to them before ?— I do not know what collections you mean. 454. If the collections of mediaeval art in the British Museum were transferred to the Ken- sington Museum, would the trustees of the British Museum then become trustees of the col- lections at Brompton? — I never contemjdated that those collections should be transferred to the Kensington Museum ; I mentioned the Kensington Museum, with reference to the collections of Majolicas, for instance, to show the rivalry of two different establishments ; I did not mean that the collections of the British Museum should be in- corporated with those of the Kensington Museum; they might be kept by themselves with distinct marks or numbers, and continue to belong to the Trustees of the'British Museum, as is the case with their pictures which are kept at the National Gal- lery and at Kensington ; these are things, how- ever, that it is for the Legislature and the Government to settle. Martis, 12° die Junii, 1860. MEMBERS PRESENT. Mr. Ayrton. Sir Philip Egerton. Mr. W. H. Gregory. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Puller. Mr. Stirling. Sir George Grey. Mr. W. H. GEEGOEY, in the Chair. Antonio Panizzi, Esq., called in ; and further Examined. A. Panizzi, Esq. 12 June i860. 455- Chairman.] Is it your opinion that it would be desirable to send any of the officers or assistants in the British Museum periodically to examine the foreign museums, and their system of arrangement ?— I think not. 456. For instance, might they not be required to make reports upon those different institutions which might be of value to the trustees, and of very considerable value to the different depart- ments themselves, both as to the mode of arrange- ment and as to the collections in other museums ? — I wish to speak with all respect of the foreign museums, but I do not think there is much to learn in them ; there is a great deal to admire in the fine objects that they possess, but as to arrangement and administration I do not believe that there is much to learn in them. 457. Might it not then be advisable that the officers should see what might be avoided in their own ? — I do not see any advantage in it. I think I have seen most collections of printed books and inquired into the management of reading rooms, and I had occasion to say before another Com- mittee, that I never learned anything; not be- cause their officers do not do what I would do myself if I were in their place, but because what they do abroad is not applicable either to our institution or to the habits of this country. 458. Might they not make private reports as to objects likely to come into the market, and might not those reports form the basis of private instruc- tions to our consular agents or diplomatic agents to procure such objects, if ever an opportunity offered?— I do not think that practically that would be of advantage. As it is known that the Museum buys, objects are offered without any private SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 3/ private report, by those who have them to sell. Occasionally English consular agents or ministers abroad do suggest objects which are in the market, and which, in their opinion, the trustees ought to buy. 459. I asked you a question at your first exami- nation, upon the subject of the extension of the galleries to the west, and you objected to such extension on the ground that that space might be required at some future time for the extension of • the library ; am I correct in considering that that was the meaning of your reply ? — I do not recollect to have answered in that way. 460. If you will turn to question 139, you were asked by Sir Philip Egerton, " But if it is advisable, in your opinion, now to purchase this land, do you see any reason why, for the next 50 years, that land and space may not be appropriated to ex- hibitions of other portions of the Museum?" and you say, " I do not see that it is pos- sible to do that ; for if it became occupied by other departments, you would never get them out of it, and very reasonably." Do you mean by that answer, to object to extending the Museum, either to the west or to the north, upon the ground that hereafter that land might be required for the library? — I was asked, so the question was put to me, whether I saw any objection to the purchase of that land to be now occupied by other depart- ments, if buildings could be put up hereafter for the extension of the library there ; I understood the question to mean, that you would buy, for instance, the land to the west, and put up on that site galleries of antiquities with the idea that at some future time those galleries of antiquities could be used for the library, and in that sense I said it was objectionable, because I do not see how galleries constructed for antiquities could be ever made use of for a library ; those galleries would have to be pulled down and a library built on their site. 461-2. You do not object to the extension of the galleries to the west simply upon the ground that hereafter that space might be required for the library ? — No, as the question is now put. 463. Mr. Puller.~\ A certain number of officers connected with the Museum, keepers of the dif- ferent departments, are provided with houses now, are they not? — Yes ; the heads of departments who were provided with houses when the houses were built, continue to occupy them ; but another head of a department has been appointed since, -who has no house, because they were all occupied when he was appointed, and that is the keeper of the mineralogy ; this arrangement has been made, that two of the keepers of the natural his- tory, the keeper of the zoology, and the keeper of the geology and palaeontology, who had houses already, continue to occupy them, and then in case of any vacancy, the keeper of the mineralogy would occupy one of the two houses that would become vacant; in fact the two seniors would always have houses, and the junior keeper of those three departments would have to wait till a house was vacant for him. 464. Do you think it an advantage that the heads of departments should have houses con- nected with their collections? — I think so, cer- tainly. That was a point that was particularly considered when the building was decided upon ; there was a Committee of the House of Commons in 1838, of which Sir Eobert Peel was chairman, and Mr. Hume was a Member; the Committee came to the conclusion that it was necessary for 0.96. the safety of the Museum that the heads of depart- a. Panizzi ments should live there. Esq. 465. How many of the heads of departments connected with the natural history collections, 12 June have houses ? — Two ; and there are three heads of 1 8G0. departments ; there was a new head of department appointed, but under very particular circumstances, for botany some years ago. When Sir Joseph Banks died, he left his botanica 1 collections and library to Mr. Brown, to come to the Museum after Mr. Brown's death. Mr. Brown then made a special arrangement with the trustees to have so much a year as keeper of the department of botany, to give up his collections immediately, and instead of an official residence, to have more holidays than other people. After his death, it became neces- sary to appoint a keeper of the department of botany, and a keeper has been appointed ; but as is the case with the keeper of the mineralogy, there being no house provided for the keeper of botany in the original arrangement with Mr. Brown, there is no house now. 466. Are there only two officers who have houses ? — There is a keeper of zoology and a keeper of geology and palaeontology who.- have houses ; there is a keeper of mineralogy and a keeper of botany who have no houses. 467. What is the number of houses actually in use connected with the natural history collec- tions ? — Two only. 468. Then, if the collections were transferred to another place, and the same advantage was to be preserved, it would be necessary to build at least two houses ? — Yes, and more ; because then you would have a head v of that establishment, and certainly he ought to have a house just as I have myself at the Museum. 469. Have you any estimate of the additional expense that would be occasioned? — No; I be- lieve that the houses at the Museum, built as you see them, fronted with stone, small, but not very small, in fact very good houses, cost about 5.000 1. a-piece. 470. Mr. Stirling.'] In the letter addressed to you by Mr. Walpole on the 24th February 1860, he says : " I do not believe that we shall ever place the establishment of the Museum on a good footing until we have the means of providing reasonably for those officers and servants who, from age, infirmity, or other causes of a similar kind, are really disabled from discharging thgir duty, not only as efficiently as they ought to do, but as efficiently as they themselves could wish to do." After that I find an "Extract from the minutes of the trustees, at a standing committee, 25th February 1860," and these words : " That with regard to superannuations, the trustees recognise the importance of the question, and are of opinion that it must, at no distant time, form the subject of consideration between the Trustees and the Government." Are you aware whether in consequence of this minute of the Trustees, or subsequently to this minute of the trustees, the Treasury have per- mitted the rules of the Civil Service with regard to superannuations to be applied to the officers of the Museum ? — They have ; the trustees, since that minute was passed, have had, the subject under their consideration again, and they passed certain resolutions, virtually stating what Mr. Walpole says, that it was desirable that the officers of the Museum should be included under the Superannuation Act ; and at the same time, that an examination by the Civil Service Commis- e 3 sioners 38 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE _4. Panizzi, Esq. 12 June 1&60. sioners for the first appointment to junior places should be introduced, which has been a sine qua non since that Act was passed, except for officers, who, like myself, are appointed by the Crown, to qualify persons to have a right to superannuation ; the principal trustees, who have the appointments, were informed by me, by order of the standing committee, that these resolutions had been passed, and they were asked whether they approved of them ; the principal trustees answered that they approved of the resolutions ; and that as soon as the sanction of the Treasury was obtained, they were ready to make the proper arrangements for the examinations. The principal trustees will have to consider those arrangements now that the Trea- sury approval has been obtained. 47 1 . I see that at a meeting of the standing com- mittee on the 11th of July 1857, it was resolved, " That in the opinion of the standing committee, considering the exceptional nature of the qualifi- cations for appointments in the Museum, the nomination of officers, assistants, and attendants, may properly rest as at present, in virtue of their power by Act of Parliament, with the three prin- cipal trustees, with the aid of such testimonials or examinations as they may think fit to use." Are any future officers, assistants, or attendants to be exempted from coming under the examina- tion of the Civil Service Commissioners 1 — -The same class of persons will be examined for the Museum as are examined for other departments of the Civil Service, in consequence of that Order in Council by which the Commissioners for exami- nations were established. In that Order in Council it is said that junior persons, when they first enter the Civil Service, are to be examined ; it is well understood that the persons occupying higher places are not to be examined. 472. How then would you define the persons occupying higher places? — I should say the keepers of departments ; and of course the Super- intendent of Natural History, and whoever is ap- pointed to my place. 473. Mr. Loire. 7 ] Upon what data do you pro- ceed in estimating the future increase of the British Museum ? — On the reports of the officers, who have all stated what they want in relation to what they have ; they have not stated so many feet, but they said that they wanted twice or three times, or four times what they now have, and in order that there should be no mistake, I wrote to them very recently, that is, about six months ago, to ask every one of them whether they had altered their opinion in any way, and they all said they had not. 474. Are you aware that some distinguished persons think there is space wasted in the Museum, particularly in the collection of natural history ? — I heard of it for the first time here, when I was examined ; I never knew that that was the opinion of anyone, either in the natural history department, or in the other departments of the Museum ; either in or out of the Museum. 475. Is it your opinion that there is any space wasted ? — Certainly not. 476. Can you allege any authority in support of that opinion ? — All the officers, every one of them, have repeatedly and till recently complained of want of space ; they recently intimated that they had not changed their mind; whenever their reports have been either before sub-committees or the standing committee, or the general meetings of trustees, and measures have been suggested to in- crea&e the space, no trustee has ever said that there was no necessity as there was plenty of it, some of it being wasted ; they have all admitted that space was wanted and not wasted by the reports they have made and the votes they have come to. 477. They have all said it was wanted, and therefore implied that it was not wasted ?— Cer- tainly ; I should think so. 478. I will call your attention to the answers of Dr. Gray before Sir John Trelawny's Commit- tee on Public Institutions, in which he expresses an opinion that objects can be transferred from tha Museum? — I mentioned the other day that I never had my attention called to that answer be- fore ; and I wis surprised when I heard it. I have always understood that he complained of the want of space as much as everybody else ; more- over, as he has constantly pressed the trustees to buy objects, I could not suspect that there were many to give away. 479. Might they not be conveniently reduced in extent ? — Yes ; but the Museum must then cease to be a great national collection for public exhibition ; it may be reduced in extent for the use of the scientific people only, by keeping speci- mens shut up in drawers and not exhibited to the public. 480. Have you stated to the Committee what exactly is your view of the use and purpose of the British Museum ? — Yes, I have. 481. What do you consider to be the leading object of the British Museum ? — I think that it is for scientific men, as well as for the public at large, that they may be able, according to the faculties that they have, and according to their education, to admire the works of nature and the works of art, and even to acquire a taste for those studies and those pursuits, if they have it not already. 482. Do you think' that completeness is the leading end and aim of the Museum ? — Yes ; and, moreover, as I said before, if you have not com- plete collections in the British Museum I do not know where you will find them. If a great country like England does not possess complete collections, I do not know who else can possess them. 483. You have observed before upon the memo- randum which has been laid before this Commit- tee, of the reasons why the British Museum should be preserved in its ancient integrity ; have you any other observations to make upon that memo- randum ? — I have observed on that incidentally. 484. Is there anything else that you wish to state? — There are certain statements which are incorrect in it ; for instance, it is said that it was the result of the Commission in 1850 that a com- mittee had been appointed to act as a standing committee. 485. Will you be so good as to read the pas- sage ?— It says, " So unwieldy a body eventually had to be curtailed for the purposes of regular business, to transact which an improved Act, resulting from the Royal commission of 1850, di- rected the nomination by the trustees of 15 of their number, who were to act as a standing committee." Now, it was not an Act of Parliament that was passed ; the trustees themselves, in consequence of the report of the commission appointed a stand- ing committee yearly ; the only difference from what was done before being, that before that a standing committee was never appointed ; but any trustee who wished to attend the committee stated so, and he was summoned to attend the meetings. 486. As I understand you, there was no Act of Parliament SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 39 Parliament at all ? — Not at all ; it is also stated in the last paragraph, that " The trustees have watched this rapid progress of the collections under their care with a constant anxiety to meet the fresh requriements for space which that pro- gress demanded, by gradual, but continual acces- sions of ground to the Museum." That is a mistake ; the trustees have never bought any ground whatever except in the front ; they bought 10 or 11 houses in front of the Museum when the building was completed ; but they never bought room for galleries for the collections, nor have they bought from time to time ; I think I have already stated that I never said that that part of the space occupied by the north Library could be applied to other departments. 487. Mr. Puller.~] I think you have stated that the Manuscript Room might be applied for the purpose of taking a part of the antiquities ? — I have. 488. Mr. Loioe.] "Will you go on reading the passage in that memorandum ? — " Until recently the enlargements thus contemplated steadily pro- gressed. A check, however, was given to them by the promise of space within the Museum walls, which was entertained at least by those trustees who represent Natural History, on the occasion of Mr. Panizzi proposing his admirable scheme for converting the quadrangle of the Museum into what should be at once a noble reading room, and a most comprehensive library. By the carrying out of this scheme, which has been so eminently successful, a space was, it was hoped, to be created for the accession to the library for the next half ^century, and also that some of the large rooms now occupied by the old library were to have been devoted to the reception of other collections. That hope has not, however, been fulfilled." No hope was ever held out; what I said the other day was, that in case the Natural History collec- tions were removed, the manuscripts might be removed up-stairs, where now the botany is, and the space now occupied by the manuscripts be transferred to the antiquities. 489. The error then is, in supposing that it had anything to do with the Natural History ? — That is the error ; when the new building in the quad- rangle was proposed by me, no other department was ever considered but the department of printed books; and it was an objection made to enter- taining that scheme, that it provided only for one department, and not for the others. I think it is another mistake to say, as it is said in the me- morial of the Naturalists, that the Museum was founded essentially as a Natural History collec- tion. 490. To what part do you refer ? — In page 3, to this passage : " The British Museum, when estab- lished by Act of Parliament, in 1755 " (that too is a mistake, for it was in 1753) "was essentially a Natural History collection; the enlightened views of its founder, Sir Hans Sloane, being, that it should ' be rendered as useful as possible,' " and so on. It was not essentially " a Natural His- tory collection ; " that is so true, that in the Act of Parliament, by which the Museum was founded, Natural History is not mentioned at all. I men- tioned the other day, that the very name that was given to the head of the Institution, namely, " Principal Librarian," showed that they did not consider Natural History, but they did consider •"books." 491. Was Sir Hans Sloane the founder of the A. Panizzi, British Museum?— His collections were bought Esq. by the nation for 20,000 1. ; he left them to be bought by the Nation for that sum, and, if 12 June possible, to be preserved at his manor house at i860. Chelsea ; and if the Nation had not bought them, they were to be offered to certain foreign public bodies, which he mentions in his will ; and finally, if they could not be so sold, they were to be sold in the most speedy and advantageous manner; eventually Parliament bought them, as I said, for 20,000 /. ; and by uniting the Cotton collec- tion of manuscripts, which was the Nation's long before, and the collection of the Harley manu- scripts, which was purchased by the same Act of Parliament as the Sloane collection, together with a fund bequeathed to purchase books by Major Edwards, the British Museum was esta- blished. 492. Do you think, that at that time, the in- crease of the Museum was foreseen ? — I am certain it was not. The trustees could not have fore- seen the present extent of the Museum ; they could not have foreseen that there would be, for example, such successful excavations as those of Nineveh, of Halicarnassus, nor the addition of marbles from Athens, nor all that has been dis- covered of palaeontology in recent times ; they bought Montague House which had a garden attached to it, but on which they could not build ; if, at that time, they had foreseen that the Mu- seum was to be increased as it has been they would not have bought that house. According to a covenant between the Duke of Bedford and that Montague who bought the house, it was agreed that those who had Montague House should not build in the gardens ; when the pre- sent building was begun in the gardens an in- junction was moved for against the Trustees of the British Museum by the Duke of Bedford; the injunction was not granted on the ground, that, as the garden was not to be built upon because of Bedford House, which existed when the contract was made, but had sin ce been pulled down, there was no reason to prevent the trustees from building in the garden. If things had remained as they were when the trustees bought that house they could not have bxiilt upon the ground where the great galleries now are. 493. Is there any other point which you wish to advert to ? — I think not at present, without going into particulars, which might be tedious. 494. Chairman.'] Referring to the question put to you by Mr. Lowe, with regard to any waste of space in the Museum at the present moment, are you not aware that there is available even now considerable space for galleries in the British Museum, wherein a .considerable portion of the cpllections might be accommodated? — We dis- cussed that, I think, on the last occasion ; I understand Mr. Lowe's question to be in refer- ence to the space which was wasted by putting in it objects that might be removed from the Mu- seum ; and, in that sense, I say that there is no space wasted, and also that neither the officers nor the trustees at any of their meetings, when- ever they have considered the subject, have thought that there was space wasted in that, sense ; there is space on the top of the presses, where it is proposed to place galleries, the inconvenience of which I stated in my former evidence. 0.96. E 4 Professor 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Professor Kichaed Owen, called in ; and Examined. Professor R. Owen. 1 -2 June i860. 495. Chairman.] You are Superintendent of the Department of Natural History in the British Museum ? — Yes. 496. On various occasions, I believe, you have complained of want of space in your department '! — -Yes ; I have been requested to report on that subject, and I have made reports on that subject. 497. I believe that want of space is particu- larly felt in the zoological portion of your depart- ment ? — I think scarcely so much more as to be said, particularly to be felt, in that department ; I think it is quite as much felt in the geological. 498. Do not the officers, both in the mineralo- gical and geological departments complain less of want of epace than the keeper of zoology ? — The keeper of the zoology has a greater number of subordinate parts upon which he has to speak ; but, as far as my own experience goes, the need for space is proportionally as great in the geological department as in the zoological department ; it is less in the mineralogical department. 499. Do you consider that the present struc- tural arrangements of the British Museum afford means for the scientific exhibition of the collec- tions contained in it ? — It depend supon the use or relation of that scientific arrangement. If an arrangement, for example, was to be made exclu- sively for the purpose of making those collections available for the advancement of their sciences; if you were to have, for example, a national museum, expressly for the behoof of scientific men, as their materials for working, then I be- lieve the space would be sufficient. 500. Would you arrange the zoological collec- tions progressively, advancing from the lowest to the highest organisms ? — -There would certainly be no room for making such an arrangement in the present state of that part of the building which is assigned to us ; it would be out of the question. 501. Various plans, I believe, have been sug- gested, at different times, in order to give in- creased space to those different collections ? — I believe they have. 502. For instance, Dr. Gray, as far back as the year 1854; recommended that galleries should be built over the cases, in the Mammalian Saloon, and the sub- committee disapproved of that pro- posal on the part of Dr. Gray ; was not that the case ? — I believe it was ; in fact, all the proposi- tions for getting such additional space as might be obtained by such superadded arrangements upon the present space were postponed, having refe- rence to the consideration of the subject on a wider basis. 503. The sub-committee on natural history, in March 1857 resolved, that the pictures which now occupy the upper part of the walls of the eastern zoological gallery should be removed, and that the space thus obtained should be filled up with galleries for the exhibition of zoology; and with regard to the want of space and light in parts of the mineralogical and palaeontological gal- leries, recommended that in lieu of the present lateral windows, the rooms 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6, should be lighted by skylights from the roof ; was not that so? — Yes; that was the principal sug- gestion. 504. With regard to the first proposal, are you of opinion that it would be desirable that those galleries should be erected over the zoological galleries ? — By no means. 505. What objection have you to that ? — Be- cause it would be entirely inadequate for the pur- poses for which a national museum, or the British- Museum of Natural History should be applied. 506. Do you also consider that the second resolution with regard to lighting the rooms, I have referred to, by skylights, is unnecessary, and that by so doing you would not obtain that space which is requisite for those two departments ? — That is one of the expedients which would only prolong the present unsatisfactory display of the collec- tions, and their arrangement. 507. Are you aware that Mr. Waterhouse, the keeper of the geological department, stated to the principal librarian, on the 3d of November 1857, that in case he had skylights to three of the rooms, which would thereby set free the side walls, to be fitted up with wall cases, it was his opinion that he would be able to display all that it was necessary or desirable to exhibit, for 10 years to come, or perhaps more ? — My data lead me to a different opinion. 508. It was stated by Mr. Smirke, in a letter addressed to the principal librarian, dated the 13th November 1857, that in reference to the two- plans submitted to the sub-committee on the previous Wednesday, one for forming a gallery with wall cases along the sides of the north portion of the ornithological gallery, and the other for forming a similar gallery, with wall cases, above and below, along the north side of room No. 5, that those plans had been submitted to Professor Owen, to Dr. Gray, and Mr. Waterhouse, and that those gentlemen quite approved of those plans ? — They would give as much increased space as I believe the present part of the building assigned to us will permit, and so far, meet with our approval ; to the extent of the increase it is a gain to us. 509. I presume in any increase that you would require you would consider it necessary that there should be studies for scientific persons who might wish to retire and examine whatever specimens their attention was devoted to ? — Yes. 510. With regard to the zoological collection, I see that it has, been stated by Dr. Gray that he would require twice the space that that collection now occupies ? — I am not aware for m hat purpose he would require it ; I mean whether for exhibit- ing what is already possessed or with a view to- future accessions. 511. I see, also, in the report of the principal librarian, dated the 10th November 1857, that the placing a gallery round the upper part of the ornithological room will, in the opinion of the officers of that department, give them space for seven years. I suppose that the' idea of placing a gallery round the upper part of the ornitholo- gical room, so as to give them space for seven years, assumes a prospective increase, as well as the accommodation of the specimens actually in the Museum at the time when the report was written ?— From the data, which I may have an opportunity of submitting to you, I entirely differ from that estimate. 512. Have you looked at the plan which Mr. Smirke drew up for the Trustees on the 9th No- vember 1857 ? — Yes, I have. 513. By that plan Mr. Smirke obtains an in- crease of 55,000 superficial feet, as you will see by referring to page 46 of the Parliamentary Paper, 379 ?— Yes. 514. You will find, also, that by the amended plan v SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 41 plan, which is numbered 21 in the return, 14,000 superficial feet of exhibition room are obtained in addition to the 55,000, making in all 69,000 super- ficial feet, independently, of the space that may be obtained on the basement. Presuming that that northern extension of the plan should be devoted to the natural history collections, do you imagine that that would be sufficient for the requirements of your department? — That northern extension, adding how many thousand feet ? 515. Sixty-nine thousand feet. — My answer to that is this : that the present total, area given to natural history is 50,000 feet, precisely 49,992. There is some additional space allotted to the na- tural history on the basement, making a total, say of 50,000 feet; that is our present space. That was the space that we had in 1 855, five years ago ; we then possessed 329,371 registered specimens. In 1856 there were added 33,769 registered speci- mens ; in 1857 there were added 48,044 specimens; in 1858, 42,691 specimens ; in 1859, 33,307 spe- cimens ; making, on the 1st of January 1860, a total of 487,182 'registered specimens, which now occupy 49,992 superficial feet. Now the average annual increase, as the Committee will see by those returns, is at the annual rate of 40,000 re- gistered specimens ; and I may explain that a registered specimen frequently includes from five to ten or twenty different objects ; and, according to that ratio of increase, of which there is not the slightest probability of a diminution, but every probability of an increase, it is plain that in 10 years we shall have doubled the number; and therefore, looking forward to 10 years, I am com- pelled, upon this basis, to estimate that the amount of superficial feet that we shall want would not be less than 100,000 ; and be it remembered, that that implies that we exhibit no greater proportion of the specimens that we possess than we do at this moment ; and it is the want of power of exhibi- tion, that has led me to report upon the exigen- cies of space. 516. Are these registered specimens to which you allude, as a • general rule, bulky, or small ? — No general rule, I think, could be predicated ; it would be difficult to strike an average ; you may say that they vary from the elephant to the mite. 517.. When you mention that each registered specimen contains five or ten or even twenty dis- tinct objects, will you explain to the Committee the meaning, of that observation? — A series of shells may be obtained from a tertiary formation, and 12 specimens may be sent of shells of a cer- tain species; they may be in different states of perfection; the character which one shell may show may not be preserved in another ; but they are all shells of the tertiary formation, belonging to the same species ; and instead of being entered under 12 separate numbers, they are preserved in one tray, and entered under one registered number, as 12 specimens of shells, of such a species, from such a formation and locality. 518. I believe that on the 10th February 1859, you submitted a plan to the Trustees of the British Museum for the future accommodation of the natural history collections? — I did. 519. In the second paragraph of that plan you make use of the expression " regard being had to the utmost economy of building space ; " does that mean that you consider that plan to involve the smallest amount of space requisite for the proper exhibition of those collections ? — Yes, with regard to the nature of the building, and the arrange- 0.96. i860. ment of the interior parts of it ; one party wall Professor serving two sky-lit galleries in most instances. R. Otven. 520r You consider, I believe, that this plan con- tains buildings only sufficient for the natural 12 June history collections for about 30 years? — That was the basis on which I made the estimate. 521. I believe the length of the ornithological fallery in that plan is estimated at 850 feet ? — r es. 522. The present bird gallery in the British Museum is about 300 feet long, is it not ? — Yes. 523. How then do your requirements tally with Dr. Gray's reports and with Mr. Panizzi's reports of the 10th of November 1857, to the Trustees, that by the erection of galleries round that ornithological room you will have space for seven years ? — In making my report on the necessity for increase of space, having a pro- spective view to the exigencies of the Museum for 30 years to come, I based my conclusions upon the observation and calculation of the facts, as far as I could understand them, feeling that I should be responsible for the results, and not relying or helping myself, as it were, by lean- ing upon any other authority. I wished to get a result out of the nature of the thing. The data, in regard to birds, are these : that in the present gallery of 300 feet, which gives us a wall space through the projections that go into the gallery of 900 feet altogether, we exhibit about 2,500 species of birds; now, the Museum contains 4,200 species of birds, but the number of species of birds that are de- scribed and known at the present time is about 8,300. I believe that, if we had space to ex- hibit them, we could, without much difficulty, and in no very great length of time, obtain speci- mens at least of all those species which have been described and that are known. But, suppose we were to exhibit those that we possess, and which we now are obliged to preserve unstuffed, as dried skins" in boxes, in the basement of the building; if 300 feet enable us to exhibit 2,500, it is easy to contemplate how much more space must be required to exhibit 4,200; but, even without looking forward to any additions from Madagascar or Borneo, Australia or New Guinea, and other places, which from past experience do provide us with most interesting and singular specimens of birds, if we attempt to perfect our national collec- tions, by showing those speeies that are known, wp shall easily get at an estimate of the space re- quired for exhibiting 8,300 specimens ; then if we calculate the rate of increase made in that parti- cular department of the collection, and calculate upon that rate of increase for 30 years to come, then even in assigning a gallery of 850 feet, to the orni- thology, I still consider that we must exercise a cer- tain discretion in the selection of our specimens for exhibition; we should not then exhibit all that we should possess at the end of 30 years, though we might exhibit a greater proportion than we do now, in relation to those that we do not exhibit. It is, therefore, easy to see whether the space of 850 feet estimated on that basis, is a correct or an immoderate one. 524. I presume you consider the British Mu- seum to have a double object, amusement and also instruction? — I consider, besides, that it has a third object, that of giving such a view of the works of creation , as might be reasonably ex- pected in the museum of a great nation. We might make selections from the class of birds, and exhibit only typical forms, and convey to the F ignorant 42 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE i860. Professor ignorant, particularly if oral instruction were R. Owen, added, good elementary information as to the prin- cipal type forms of the class of birds, and that 1 2 Jarre object would require but a small space ; or we might exhibit such specimens as are peculiar for beauty of colour, singularity of form, or other striking character, still for the instruction of the public and the ignorant, and retain a very large proportion of the collection for scientific purposes and comparison in store boxes. Therefore the application of the Museum to the instruction or amusement of the wage classes, and its applica- tion to the advancement of science, are both com- patible with a comparatively small space. But if we consider the function of the British Museum in the departments of natural history to be, to give to all classes of our visitors an adequate view of that braneh of the creation, then I can only estimate the space required upon the data that I have just endeavoured to explain ; and that leads me, looking forward to an increase for 30 years to come, to the conclusio nas to the required increase of space for birds, as the difference is between 300 and 850 feet. But then, I must add, that in the present space of 300 feet nominally allotted to birds, we are obliged, for want of room, to mix most incongruously with them almost all our col- lection of mollusca and shells ; so that a person going through the gallery of birds is distracted by seeing the arrangement of all the various forms of pigeons on one hand, and seeing pearl shells on the other, beings of an entirely different class of natural history, are juxtaposed, and a spectator is distracted. ,525. As far as the amusement of the general spectator goes, do you not think that the exhibition of a considerable number of what I may call typical specimens, not in the very strict accepta- tion of the word typical, but exhibiting marked distinctions in colour and form, might be de- sirable ; that it might be left to the keeper of the department ; and that such an exhibition would be more calculated to amuse and fix distinctions on the mind of an indifferent spectator than the exhibition of every single known specimen and variety of bird ? — If it be considered best to limit the application of the national collection of natural history to the objeet of elementary instruction, undoubtedly. 526. As far as the opinion of scientific men goes, do you not think that they would prefer that there should be such an exhibition as I have contemplated, but that the greater portion of the collections should be kept in drawers, in order that they might have the opportunity of handling them, and examining them, which they could better do than by observing them when set up ? — Speaking as a scientific man, I have no doubt that all my scientific friends, with myself, would be perfectly satisfied with having the national collection so considered, with permission to arrange it entirely with reference to our work- ing objects and views. 527. Do you remember that you were one of a deputation that presented a memorial of the British Association to Lord John Russell on the 10th of March 1848 ?— Perfectly well. 528. A paragraph in that memorial was to this effect : " That the halls devoted to natural history shall be so enriched with well-selected and well- classified objects of contemplation and comparison, as shall not merely gratify the curiosity and excite the wonder of the multitude, but shall prove of real use to the researches of the student and the man of science." Does not that paragraph ex- press what the character of the exhibition at the British Museum should be, in the opinion of those persons who presented that memorial and who formed that deputation ? — It gives very clearly tne opinion of scientific men as to the im- provement which might be made in the British Museum as it then was. 529. Did it only refer to that particular period? — It had reference, certainly, to the state of the collections, and their arrangement, at that time, and for some time previously. 530. I am not to take it, then, as laying down the principle upon which a great collection should be arranged P-^-The collections would always be arranged according to the best known and best acknowledged scientific principles. 531. But do you think that that paragraph which I have just read to you contains the whole prin- ciple upon which a great national collection should be arranged and exhibited?— If it implies, or is supposed to involve any restriction as to the num- ber of objects in nature to be exhibited and arranged, I do not agree with it now. 532. Not at present ? — No. 533. With regard to the mammalia, I think you contemplate in your plan that it would be neces- sary to have a gallery of 850 feet ? — I do. 534. Do you consider it necessary to have the skeletons of all the great cetacea exhibited ? — I think that a national collection of natural history ought to exhibit not only the skeleton, but ought to exhibit the stuffed whale. I think the people ought to have an opportunity of seeing at least one of the largest animals that has come from the hands of the Creator. 535. With regard to the passage in your plan of the 10th of November 1859, in which you speak of the " restorations of the huge zeuglodon, of mammoths of different species," &c, I see in your address to the British Association at Leeds in 1858, this remark, " In like manner in the palason- tological collections or galleries of fossil remains, the skeletons of every rare and large animal should be exhibited whenever a restoration can be made" ? — I am decidedly of that opinion with re- gard to a national collection. 536. With regard to the restoration of those huge animals, would you endeavour from a small number of bones to form a skeleton, by supple- menting the deficiencies by artificial means, or would you merely, where you had almost a perfect skeleton, restore the few deficiencies that there might be ?— The latter decidedly ; that is the prin- ciple upon which the skeleton of thejnastodon has been restored. 537. Do you think that there is any great likeli- hood of your getting very many complete skele- tons of those extinct animals ? — I have very little doubt with space, and with the means, that in a very short time we should be able to make most instructive and most striking additions in that way. 538. How much space altogether does the plan of 1859 require?— If the mode of architecture involved two storeys, it would require five in re- spect of exhibition of specimens, five acres. 539. What objection should you have to an additional store ?— The groundfloor, for example, in a two storied building must be lighted by side lights, like the present room; if you light a build- ing, far the exhibition of natural objects, by side lights, you take away so much of the wall space which is the most valuable space for exhibition : for SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM'. 43 for example, in this room, you would not only take away the space which the windows occupy, but virtually the space between, as you cannot see objects properly between the windows ; they might be almost as well down stairs ; therefore you do not gain space, as it might seem, in the ratio of adding storeys ; you really rather expend so much more money without an adequate return for it ; I have therefore considered that the more bulky specimens, and those that require the least amount of light, might, upon my plan, be conve- niently arranged upon the groundfloor, and be seen by side lights ; that would leave, for all other classes requiring a better light, that mode of ad- mitting it which my experience tells me is the best, and the only one that ought to be adopted for the exhibition of the majority of natural his- tory objects. 540. How many superficial feet altogether does your plan contemplate? — I have not made that calculation. 541. You have seen" the report, I presume, of the sub-committee of the British Museum upon the subject of the purchase of five acres iu the locality of the British Museum, and also the same amount at Kensington ? — I have. 542. The expense of the buildings which you would require, presuming that the natural his- tory collections were sent to Kensington, would amount, as it is stated, to 567,000 I. ? — That, I believe, is Mr. Smirke's estimate. 543. There is no calculation, in that report of the sub-committee, of the expense of the transfer of the collections to Kensington 1 — No. 544. Have you made any approximate calcula- tion of what that expense would be ?— I have not. I have had some experience with regard to trans- fers, packing and moving collections. I may mention, for example, that very lately we had to transfer, from Manchester to London the collec- tion of minerals, for which 2,000 1, was given, containing upwards of 2,000 specimens of mine- rals. Now, these are generally considered, from their sharp delicate crystals, most difficult to move with safety ; but that collection was packee and moved from Manchester at an expense of about 25 I., in the course of about 10 days. 545. I presume I may take for . granted that the cost of the transfer of such very large collec- tions wotdd be considerable ? — No doubt. 546. Do you not think that the passage through the streets of London to Kensington would be attended with considerable risk to those collec- tions; for instance, it was stated to me that it would be almost impossible to pack and unpack the different collections, without separating many of the minuter objects from the labels, which would be of Very great moment, inasmuch as perhaps a great deal of the value of those objects depends upon the connexion between them and their labels ; and also, for instance, in "the case of, the mastodon in your department, if that specimen were to be transferred, there would be very great risk of its crumbling to pieces ? — The example you have alluded to was set up and articulated in Piccadilly, in the Egyptian Hall ; it was then taken to pieces there, and brought to the Museum, and re-articulated and set up; and I am not aware, in fact, I may say certainly without any damage to any part of it, and at no very great amount of cost. But further, in my. former capacity as curator of the Museum of the Royal College of Surgeons, there have been no fewer than two complete packings 0.96. up of the whole of that collection, transfers, and Pi f eg8or re-transfers of it. The objects in that collection g 4 Omen. are much more liable to be damaged, and require much greater care, consisting of glass bottles and 1 2 June objects delicately suspended in spirits of injected i860. preparations, where you see fragile wax branching like coral in a thousand directions, of minute ske- letons ; and the whole of those thousands of spe- cimens were, when the first addition was made to that museum, transferred five houses distant from the museum in Lincoln's-inn Fields. But once packed, and then to be unpacked, I do not estimate the danger of the transfer to be increased in the ratio of the distance of transport; they might have been carried from Lincoln's-inn Fields to the East of London, or\the "West End, certainly with as little damage as they were car- ried from one part of Lincoln's-inn Fields to another. I must say that I do not agree with those who, as it appears to me, exaggerate the cost or the danger of package ; and as to labels and other appendages, their preservation requires care- ful supervision ; . careful superintendence ; that is all. I have no doubt that my friend and col- league, Professor Maskelyne, has received every label that came connected with the Greg collection of minerals as safely in Bloomsbury as he sent them from Manchester ; and so with every other of the hundreds of thousands of specimens. Speaking simply from my own experience in this work, I should look at any transfer of the dry and other natural history specimens in the British Museum as an easier and much less anxious task than I have had twice to go through with regard to the anatomical specimens in the museum of the Col- lege of Surgeons. 547. Presuming that the natural history collec- tions were transferred to some other locality, it would be necessary, would it not, to have a library fosmed in connexion with them ? — That is the main reason against the transfer in our me- morial, and also in previous evidence and docu- ments relating to it in former years. 548. You would have to purchase a fresh library, would you not? — In short, it is just one of those objections which can be estimated; and my estimate of its value, when I went into it with a view to the probable contingency of such a pur- chase, came to' about 15,000 1. ; but, to be quite sure, I a^ain applied to Mr. "Winter Jones, and I received from him yesterday this estimate of the value of all the books upon natural history l ' now in the library of the British Museum, and he considers that they are worth about 20,000 1. ; so that, supposing, what I cannot permit myself for a moment to suppose, that the trustees would ever permit the severance of the Banksian Library from the natural history collection, of the Banksian part of which it, forms an integral part, and with which it was transferred to the Museum. Should such a severance of the natural history ever take place, what is most natural to be expected is, that the Banksian Library will go with the natural history collections : and to that extent would be diminished the estimate of the value of the objec- tion that we thought it our duty to put before Her Majesty's Government in the memorial. 549. Mr. Lowe.~] By how much would that di- minish it? — I should doubt whether the Bank-' sian Library, the peculiar value of which is the books and treatises, separate papers and memoirs of a former date, could .be without difficulty re- stored, and whether that Banksian Library could be reproduced much under 10,000 £ p 2 550. The 44 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Professor 550. The Banksian Library and 10,000/. ■R. Owen, would do what you want, as I understand ? — " Quite so. I will hand in one volume of the ad- 12 June mirable catalogue by Dryander of the Banksian i860. Library (the same being handed in). If the mine- ralogy were removed from the British Museum, such a collection of books as forms the subject of this volume, it would be indispensable to have. Now a gentleman whose profession and business it is to purchase and collect books, would repro- duce that, part of the Banksian Library in one- twentieth part of the time, perhaps, and at one- half of the expense that the mineralogist could. 551. Mr. Hardy. .] You would contemplate re- placing the Banksian collection in the British Museum by similar books? — No doubt, Mr. Panizzi would be loth to allow any one of those books not to be in the Museum : at the same time, I should say, that of a hundred people who would go to look at any of the books in the Banksian Library, 99 would be naturalists, and the hun- dredth might be one that would examine them for some other purpose. 552. Chairman.'] Then besides the expense of the transfer of the new library, would not so large a building, and so many galleries as you con- template in your plan, involve very considerable •expense in the staff for the maintenance of that establishment ? — By no means. 553. The estimate for the working staff of the British Museum at the present moment is calcu- lated, I think, at about three thousand and odd hundreds a year ; supposing you had the large establishment contemplated, it would be neces- sary, would it not, to have the same working staff as you have at the British Museum ; and not only that, but you would also be obliged to have other persons, such as librarians of a higher class, and a higher salary than those who are included under the working staff of the British Museum? — You prefaced your question by saying, supposing you had an establishment or building upon the plan shown; but I do not contemplate the immediate carrying out of such plan, I suppose that if we were to proceed increasing our collections at the ratio at which they have been increasing for the last 10 years, in 30 years from the present time such a building as thi3 would, upon that basis, certainly be required ; but now, perhaps not more than one-half of this plan would be required to be erected. What I have recommended, on the principle of economy, is securing ground for future additions that may be added on in harmony with a preconceived plan ; and not to go on with that incessant and difficult patchwork which we have suffered from in succes- sive changes and arrangements of space in the Museum ; but foreseeing the exigencies for 30 years, and conceiving a harmonious plan which may be added to, gallery by gallery, then in the course of 30 years you would come to this {pointing to the plan) ; and you will ; I have not the smallest doubt that you must. Then may be required, though not in the same ratio, somewhat of an in- crease of staff; but that does not at all apply to the next year, and only in a moderate degree to the next 10 years, or the next 15 years. 554. Then I distinctly understand you to say that your plan does not involve the necessity of immediately erecting a structure of the dimensions which are exhibited in the plan of March 1859 ? — It never implied that ; it was professedly laid before the trustees as a plan for meeting the pro- gressive increase of the different departments of natural history for the next generation, or for 30 years. 555. Would it be possible to effect this scheme, without carrying it out in its totality, ac- cording to the arrangement of the rooms which I see before me ? — Perfectly, as for example, at pre- sent we associate mineralogy with geology and, paleontology in one gallery, and for 10 or 15 years the gallery here assigned to geology and paleon- tology of 850 feet, would suffice for both ; but, if both departments proceeded in the ratio of in- crease that they have lately had, then would come a time when the parallel and separate gallery for mineralogy must be added ; and if you had the ground, you could add on mineralogy to the ap- propriate part, when the timp came ; but my plan might be -carried on, at first, irrespective of the mineralogy, if you had the ground, five acres. 556. You are, I presume, well acquainted with ' foreign collections ? — Yes. 557. You have visited the collection at Leyden, Paris, Berlin and Vienna ? — I have not been to Vienna. 558. Can you give the Committee any estimate of the value and extent of our natural history collections, as compared with the foreign collec- tions that you have visited, and with which you are acquainted ? — I could not give that accurate comparison which I should wish to give, at the present time ; I knew it better when I gave my evidence before the Committee of 1847; of late, from other occupations, I have not been able to give that time to continental travel which might have been necessary ; I did suggest to Mr. Panizzi whether I might not make that very inspection of continental museums, so as to be able to answer such a question correctly. In a general way, I can state that many continental collections sur- pass ours in one or other department : thus the collection of osteology at Leyden, is much supe- rior in extent and consequent utility to anything that we have in this country. 559. Incidentally to your observations, do you think it would be advisable that the gentlemen who are keepers of departments should be occasionally sent to inspect different foreign collections, and to report upon those collec- tions to the trustees? — It would be useful in- formation for the administrator, having in view the progressive increase and arrangement of the national collections; at the same time, I may remark, that it is a very usual mode of employing our vacations, more or less, in visiting some foreign capital, and to pass much of our time in the mu- seums there. 560. Do you think that a report from the heads of departments in the Museum, to 'the trustees, upon foreign collections, would not be of value as enabling them to see where our deficiencies lay, and in what manner they mi^ht be supplied?^ — I believe, whenever the time may come, that the Administration determined that Britain shall have a British Museum of natural history, that the most valuable amount of information for guidance, in establishing that great need in this country, would be obtained from accurate reports on the present condition, the extent, the mode of exhibition, the mode of addi- tion, and the mode of application with regard to instruction in the museums in the principal capi- tals of Europe. 561. Do you think that those reports would come best from the heads of the departments 1 I should conclude so from their habitual avoca- tions ; SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 45 tions ; they would be the best qualified to obtain the right information. 562. Are you aware of any foreign collection that possesses the same amount of stuffed speci- mens as our own, in any department? — I cannot answer that question accurately. I may have an opinion, which would be based upon what I knew some years ago ; for example, I do not know the rate of increase at the Garden of Plants, or at Berlin. At the time I speak of, my conviction would be, that at Berlin they surpassed us in the number of stuffed mammalia, and greatly sur- passed us in the number of specimens of fishes ; the extent of the collections in that class led Pro- fessor John Muller to make most valuable addi- tions to our scientific knowledge. 563. Is there a large collection of stuffed specimens in Paris ? — No ; not, I think, adequate to what is now known of the extent of the classes usually exhibited in that way. 564. Then I. presume our collections of natural history may be taken to be, on the whole, superior at this moment to any foreign collections ? — May I state how we stand with regard to the class mammalia ; I estimate the saloon, and other parts of the Museum, which are now appropriated to the mammalia, as equal to a gallery of 220 feet in length ; and we conceal, I cannot say that we ex- hibit, but we do keep there about 1,100 stuffed specimens of the class mammalia ; now, the species known and described in 1829 were 1,350 ; let me instance the subsequent progress by one order, the marsupial order ; at that time 50 species were known and described ; since 1829, 350 species of the marsupial order have been made known and described, and a similar rate of increase has gone on in our knowledge of other orders of mammalia, most of which that are described and known could, I believe, be obtained ; I am of opinion that all of them should be obtained. With regard to the exhibition of this class, we do not exhibit a single whale; the representative of the order eetacea is a small porpoise, which is hung up, high upon the walls. Now the whale is an animal upon which I suppose English capital, to the extent of millions, has been invested in the pur- suit and capture ; and it is one of those animals that brings a proportionate revenue to the mer- chants and others who so invest their money. It, therefore, seems to me to be one of the functions of the British Museum, in regard to natural history, to preserve one good specimen, at least, of that animal before it is finally extirpated. If we do not, it will be said of us, as we say of the Dutch, that they were so intent upon killing the Dodo for food for their sailors in their voyages to Batavia, that they did not think it worth while to preserve a single specimen of that species, which is now utterly extinct, and of which we show a solitary dried foot, as one of our greatest curiosi- ties. That is not a proper state of things to con^ tinue with regard to an animal which is most in- teresting, as showing the size to which animal life can be manifested on our planet ; and, therefore, in my plan I have a gallery in which might be exhibited a skeleton of the whalebone whale, and of the sperm whale, and perhaps of one or two of the other well-marked genera. With regard to land quadrupeds, the largest are the elephants ; the African elephant, the Indian elephant, and the Sumatran elephant } of the African elephant, we have a specimen a few weeks old ; of the Indian elephant, we have a young: one about one-fourth grown; of the Sumatran elephant we have no 0.96. specimen; and there ought to be a mammalian gallery in which these species should be exhibited, by a male of the full size, aid also a female, and also the young. Then of the rhinoceros we have a few species, but not of the large Sumatran rhino- ceros; we lately acquired a young specimen, show- ing a very interesting phase of its nonage, a coat of hair which it loses afterwards ; we ought to have full grown specimens of the male and female of that species ; we have not a specimen of the largest species of bear, the grisly bear. There is another animal, again, from which we derive a great amount of money ; the Board of Trade, I have no donbt, possesseses returns showing the value obtained by killing the great seal called the sea elephant ; but we have no specimen of that elephantine seal which the whalers go out to kill. My plan has reference to future possible acqui- sitions of these desiderata, and at the same time to providing means of exhibiting the class mammalia as a connected whole. According to the increase, the ratio of which I have given in the data above- mentioned, a gallery of 850 feet will be required. But even in the space that we do give to the mammalia, we have most incongruously associated with them the zoophytes ; and if any of my scien- tific friends were to say, " Well, but we know so much of the mammalian class, that you cannot ex- pect any very great increase in the number of species," I should point to what occurred five years ago. There was discovered in Africa a great ape, making the nearest approach to our own organi- zation, the gorilla, utterly unknown before ; we have obtained with adequate activity and corre- spondence a skeleton of the full grown male, and one half-grown stuffed specimen. I have heard lately that, we might obtain skins of a male and female gorilla of the full size, with another spe- cies, that a traveller, who has been spending some years in that land, believes he has obtained ; the other species being described as one of the most singular anthropoid apes, and which has never been exhibited. That accession alone would lead to the necessity of exhibition space, perhaps to the extent of one quarter of that which we give to the whole of the order of quadrumana. On what grounds we should limit the requirements of space, so as not to be able to these things in the Museum, I cannot comprehend. 565. Will you furnish to the Committee the number of superficial feet which your plan will require, in order that they may compare them with the amount of superficial feet which the natural history collections now occupy, together with the number of superficial feet which would be ob- tained from Mr. Smirke's plan, presuming that the whole of those buildings to the north of the Museum contemplated by him should be applied to the department of natural history ? —I will do so. 566. I presume that in the natural history col- lections, for all the larger objects you would be quite satisfied with a side light ? — Yes. 567. For the other more minute objects you would like a skylight? — Quite so. 568. In the year 1858, you were, I believe, one i of those gentlemen who presented to the Government a memorial on the subject of the proposed severance from the British Museum of its natural history collections ? — I was ; I wrote one of the clauses in that memorial. 569. You stated, I think, in the fourth para- graph, that even if the natural history collections F 3 were Professor 11. Owen. 12 June i860. 4 b MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Professor it. Owen. 12 June i860. were taken away, it would give no incre: space to the collections of antiquities ? — Yes. 570. You also observed that the prolongation of the building to the north, besides being much less costly than the formation of an entirely new building, would put a stop to all controver- sies respecting the site and style of architecture that might be applied to any new building ? — Yes. ' " .. 571. With regard to controversies respecting the site, have you not expressed an opinion that, in case the natural history collections in the British Museum should be removed, it would be very advisable to have them transferred to the neighbourhood of the « Zoological Gardens, in order that the dead animal might be exhibited in proximity with the living animal ? — I do not recol- lect ; but I find, in answer to Question 2679, that I said, " Of course I cannot see any disadvantage in such a separation, provided that Separation is not attended with such an evil as the separation from the scientific library, or the loss of any other good which it at present derives from its connexion with it. There is nothing in the mere physical contiguity of a collection of scientific objects, with a collection of arts or antiquities, which would materially benefit the one or the other." The library is still the objection to sever- ance which principally strikes one. 572. In reply to a question from Mr. Monckton Milnes, in your examination on the 23d of May 1848 (2687), "Do you think any advantage would result from connecting those collections with living specimens, in the way that is done in Paris ? " You said, " Yes, there is an obvious advantage in it, and the feeling of that advantage has led to an attempt to show certain series of stuffed specimens in close contiguity with the living animals belonging to the Zoological Society of London." And at Question 2688 you were asked, " You would think it therefore advanta- geous, if a collection of this kind could be put into immediate juxtaposition with the Zoological Gardens, and the new Botanical Gardens in the Begent's Park?" and your answer was, "If there were no greater concomitant disadvantages to the national museum, no doubt. It must always be remembered that there is a great advantage in a central position for a great national collec- tion ; and I conceive that that advantage, with the adjunct of the library, more than over- balances the smaller advantage of the association of living with stuffed specimens?" Therefore, although you consider the association of the natural history collections with the Zoological Gardens to be a matter of importance, yet still you consider that the disadvantage of separating the natural history collections, from the central position which they now occupy, near to the library, would more than counterbalance the other advantages ? — Both of those conditions have their value ; both are estimable by the adminis- trator. I consider that having five acres of ground for duly enlarging the museum of natural history, would be a greater advantage than either of them, wherever the ground could be obtained. 573. I think I may gather from the answers that you gave before that Commission, that you do not attach very great value to ' the whole ot the scientific collections being kept together; as, for instance, you have shown no objection to the dissociation of the mineralogioal collection from the rest of the natural history collections ; you have stated that it might be transferred to the Museum of Comparative Geology in Jermyn- street?— In reply to that, I will refer to an answer which I subsequently gave in 1858 before the sub-committee, who were examining the ques- tion of the removal of the botany from the British Museum, in reply to question 8, page 6 ; I would refer to that,' as giving my present opinions upon the subject. The question is, "Do you entertain the opinions which you formerly ex- pressed as to the expediency of removing the mine- ralogioal collection from the British Museum?" I find, on reference to my evidence before the Commission in 1848, that only two of the depart- ments of natural history had at all suggested themselves to my mind as subjects for the ques- tion of removal or otherwise, viz., botany and mineralogy. At that period, I inclined to think that the evil of removing the botany would be greater than the good; circumstances in regard to that department have since changed, and with them my opinion; so also with regard to mine- ralogy ; circumstances have so altered in reference to the capability of receiving such collections in any national establishment out of the British Museum, that I am most decidedly of opinion now, that the mineralogy could not be better situated than where it is. 574. In paragraph 7 of the Memorial of Scien- tific Men, I find this expression; "We beg to add the expression of our opinion, that such removal, particularly if to any situation distant from that centre, would be viewed by the mass of the inhabitants with extreme disfavour ; it being a well known fact, that by far the greater number of visitors to the Museum consists of those who frequent the halls containing the natural history collections ; whilst it is obvious that many of ^hose persons who come from the densely peopled districts of the eastern, northern, and southern parts of London would feel it very inconvenient to resort to any distant locality " ?- — That is the expression of an opinion that would be duly weighed by the administrator, who would consider all the requirements of this great ques- tion. 575. In which opinion you coincide? — I still entertain that opinion. 576. Mr. Lowe.] You alluded to some circum- stances which have altered your opinion with regard to the mineralogioal and botanical col- lections ; what were those circumstances?— The circumstances in regard to the collection of botany were the development of Kew Gardens, and the subsequent development of a Museum of Botany in juxtaposition with those gardens, neither of which existed at the time when I gave my evi- dence. The question as to the mineralogy related to the rapid filling up of the Museum in Jermyn- street; in 1847 there had been a suggestion that the mineral collection might have been trans- ferred to the Museum of Practical Geology in Jenny n-street. 577. Your opinion was altered as to the mi- neralogy, as there was no room then constructed for it?— Yes; and because the objects of that Museum had been restricted and defined; re- stricted, for example, to the illustration entirely of British strata : the illustration of the observa- tions on the geological survey of Great Britain, and not of the whole world. 578. The object was too narrow for the pur- pose ? — Yes. 579. How did the facts as to Kew modify your opinion? — The increasing number of botanists, and SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 47 and of persons interested in botany, visiting Kew, particularly visiting the Museum and herbarium, and acquiring instruction from them, led me to see that the transference of the comparatively small collection of botany in the British Museum might have been made there. . 580. You think that it might be with advan-' tage transferred to Kew ? — Yes, I think so. • 581. The mineralogy might be transferred with advantage, if a suitable place could be found for it ? — I do not think so now ; I think it would detract from the character of a great national col- lection of Natural History to be wanting in that great class of natural objects. I think they should all go together, or stay together. 582. Chairman.'] I think you have, on other occasions, stated that you did not see any great objections to multifarious collections being kept together under one roof, and in the same locality, and, also, that all these collections put together gave an air of grandeur to one great establishment, and that there is nothing at all objectionable in retaining them together? — I have felt, and may have expressed that general sentiment. 583. With regard to what I may call the British collections of natural history in the British Mu- seum, -you are aware of the great popularity of those collections with the working classes ? — - Certainly. 584. You are also, perhaps, aware that the most intelligent of the working classes resort to the British Museum, in order to obtain instruc- tion, for instance, in mineralogy, or geology, and entomology, in the study of which they are en- gaged ? — Yes. 585. Do you not think that if those collections were removed from the British Museum, and taken to Kensington, it would be a very great blow and discouragement to those persons who avail themselves so much of the instruction which is conveyed by those British collections? — In the consideration of that question, it would be essen- tial above all things that ' the exactitude of what you have now stated should be demonstrated: that we should know how many of the wage classes really come to the Museum for that purpose, and how many do not. In a general way, the most intelligent of that class are those who do come ; but, with regard to the number who come for that purpose, I think they are a very small proportion, compared with the number of practical naturalists in a higher walk of life who come ; I have had no opportunity of forming a ' clear and certain opinion of the proportion of the wage classes that come with a view to study; I think a very large proportion come for a day's holiday, and walk round the galleries, and derive a certain kind of amuse- ment for themselves, their wives, and children, in seeing these new and rare objects; that is my present impression of the working of the Museum in relation to that class. 586. At the same time, you have signed a docu- ment, which states that it is " a well-known fact that by far the greater number of visitors to the Museum consists of those who frequent the halls containing the natural history collections ; whilst it is obvious that many of those persons who come from the densely peopled districts of the eastern, the northern, and the southern parts of London, would feel it very inconvenient to resort to any distant locality " ? — The number is enormous on those holidays, when they have a whole day's holi- day. 587. But what answer do you give as to your 0.93. having signed a document stating that it is " a well-known fact that by far the greater number of visitors to the Museum consists of those who fre- quent the halls containing the natural history collection" ? — I suppose the impression must have been derived, as many of our impressions are, from our observations ; certainly my observation of the difficulty of getting through those galleries, on Easter Monday or the day after Christinas-day, ■would leave a very strong impression of the enormous crowds of the wage classes that go to that part of the collection ; but I must confess that I have not made that comparison of those crowds in my own department with the crowds in the other departments, which would enable me, before this Committee, to state definitely, upon certain knowledge, the proportion ; I have a belief; I fancy that otir galleries attract the greatest pro- portion, for they are enormously crowded. I am not quite sure to what document you refer, or how it stands in the context (the memorial was handed to the Witness) ? — I do not see in this any comparison between those who frequent the natural history halls and the others ; we only ex- press a fact, which is a fact, that a very great number do frequent them, so as to densely fill them on certain public days. 588. And you state that their removal " would be viewed by the mass of the inhabitants with extreme disfavour " ? — I think it is very likely that it would. 589. Then you go on to say, " for these rea- sons,, as based on scientific advantages, the con- venience, and instruction of the people, and the saving. of a large sum to the nation, we earnestly hope that the natural history collections may not be interfered with, but be allowed to remain as- sociated with the many other branches of human knowledge which are so admirably represented in this great national establishment " ? — Yes ; they were our views at the time, July 1-858, when the document was signed. 590. Since July 1858 have you changed that opinion ? — Since July 1858 certain of the points there specified have been gone into with careful detail; for example, as regards the saving of a large sum of money to the nation. Now, when that point came to be considered in reference to what is my duty, that is, looking out for space for acces- sions of 30 years, to afford means of the exhibi- tion of an adequate collection of natural history for the nation, then I find that certain statistics and facts have been since that period obtained, which would modify my opinion as to the amount of saving to the nation which would happen by getting five acres at Bloomsbury, or five acres somewhere else. That is the explanation I would give of the supposed discrepancy between my opinion in 1858 and 1860. 591. Still you do not get over that portion of your observations with regard to the popularity and value of the natural history collections to the lower orders of the metropolis? — There is no doubt that crowds of the wage people come to spend their day's holiday in our galleries. I am not, of course, an administrative man, but simply a scientific man. It is a a subject for the con- sideration of the administrator, seeing the way that that day is applied by the holiday makers, whether another part of the metropolis would practically be a preventative of the enjoyment of the natural history galleries by the wage classes ; it is a large question, into which I have not entered. 592. Presuming that the natural history col- f 4 lection* Professor R. Omen. 12 June i860. 48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Professor lections were not to be removed, and that Mr. R. Owen. Smirke's plan for an extension to the north should be adopted; how far would you advocate the 1 2 «f Une erection of new rooms after the plan of the Col- lege of Surgeons, with galleries? — Practically, those galleries appear to me to afford the greatest amount of exhibition space under the best con- ditions in regard to light and facility of access ; at the same time, I am speaking now of those collections at the College of Surgeons in reference to the study and the advancement of the sciences to which they belong. The galleries there sub- serve that purpose admirably, where wet prepa- rations are kept, for example; but they might not do so well for the Museum, in which, from traditional custom, those thousands of the .wage classes would crowd. I should view with con- siderable alarm galleries like those at the Col- lege of Surgeons being traversed by dense crowds, who have a sure footing in the strongly-built rooms of the British Museum. 593. I presume that should rooms be con- structed in accordance with the plan of the Col- lege of Surgeons, the cases on the floor would in all probability contain the stuffed specimens, which would be the popular objects, and the galleries above would contain the skeletons and osteological specimens, which would not in all pro- bability be so popular with the general spec- tator, and therefore those galleries would not be much frequented?— Such would be the natural system of arrangement that we should adopt, if we continued to be confined to the present exi- gencies oi space, making the best use of it. 594. Mr Hardy. .] I understand your view to be, that every collection in the British Museum ought to be as complete as possible ? — Yes. 595. Then space should be provided not only for the collections to be received, but to be exhi- bited ?— Certainly. 596. You express no opinion as between two places where you can get a large space ; if you can get it at Bloomsbury you would' be satisfied, as well as elsewhere? — I should much prefer it at Bloomsbury, if it could be got there ; but I con- sider that a space of at least five acres so essential to the right and healthy progress of a national col- lection of natural history, as to outweigh the con- veniences of any particular locality ; I love Blooms- bury much, but I love five acres more. 597. Is the position of the place secondary in your view to completeness ? — Yes. 598. Sir Philip Egerton.~\ How many of the present mineralogical galleries are lighted by sky- lights? — Only one, viz., No. 29. 599. Supposing that the other galleries were lighted by skylights, have you calculated what amount of wall space you would acquire ? — Yes ; we should get an addition of wall space of about 170 feet. 600. With reference to your answer, Question No. 506, that it would not be advisable to carry out that plan, your answer had reference, had it not, to its being a complete plan, without refer- ence to further extension? — It would be but a putting on, on that system of additions that we have been compelled to make or propose. 601. Have you not found that the light in the rooms already lighted by skylight is far better than in those lighted by side lights^? — In the gallery unquestionably it is ; and in the plan of a gallery of adequate size for mineralogy, a lateral skylight should be introduced. 602. What is the height of the cases in those rooms ?— That of the wall-cases is eight feet eight inches and a half. 603. What is the height of the wall above the top of the cases ? — It is 10 feet. 604. That space is wasted now, is it not? — It is made little use of. 605. Do you know any reason why galleries should not be placed there for the exhibition of small objects in Natural History ? — None what- ever, if space is to be acquired where we now have very little. 606. Your former answer, No. 504, had also reference to its being a complete and satisfactory plan, without reference to further extension ? — It had reference, of course, to what you now suggest, in regard to gaining as much space as we can under present circumstances. 607. You see no disadvantage in erecting those galleries? — None whatever to the rooms them- selves ; the only disadvantage I should see, would be if it impeded and arrested the acquisition of that space which I am firmly convinced is abso- lutely requisite for such a Museum of natural his- tory as Britain should possess. 608. Do you see any objection to closing the access to those galleries on public days ? — If any part of a public gallery is closed, or shut, my observation of visitors is this, that it has a tenfold attraction and charm for them. If I open my private study, to come out, or go into it, 20 or 30 visitors will immediately leave off looking at the mastodon, and make a rush to go in, and ask me to let them go into that museum. Only put up a barrier, and- it will sure to be a subject of complaint. 609. The objects in those cases would be per- fectly visible from the floor below, and therefore not be much more removed than the upper objects in the present cases'? — If they were perfectly visible, that would be so ; but they would be- imperfectly visible, and only vaguely seen from below. 610. Would there be any greater objection to closing the access to that series of cases than.- there is to closing the access to a single case now ? — No ; I do not know that there would be. 611. Upon the whole, as an expedient, do you think it a good one to put skylights in the mineralogical galleries, and erect galleries round the rooms ? — They are the best additions that could be made to that gallery; I believe the only available additions. 612. Several questions have been putto you with regard to a plan of extension to the north ; I have not heard any questions with regard to the eastern portion of the land between Montague- place and Kussell-square and the present build- ings ; are you acquainted with that piece of land ? — In a general way. 613. Can you give the Committee any idea of the length and breadth of it ? — No ; I have not formed any estimate. 614. Do you consider that that land is of suffi- cient extent to provide you with such a mamma- lian saloon as you would consider satisfactory, of about 500 feet ?— I think that nothing short of 850 feet, by 50 feet in width, ought to be con- templated for a gallery of mammalia— stuffed spe- cimens and other specimens of osteology — for an increase at the ratio at which we have increased, and considering other data connected with the class which I have already mentioned, and look- ing forward for the needs of 30 years to come. 615. Do you think it absolutely essential that all SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 49 all your mammalia should be in one saloon, or, in other words, could you not put the small ones in an upper storey, or a secondary saloon ? — I think it most desirable that a national museum should have the mammalia in one gallery, systematically arranged, as the birds now are arranged, so as to show, as I have expressed in one of my first reports, the way in which one order is modified and has a transition into another, such an arrange- ment " as to enable the student or intelligent visitor to discern the extent of the class, and to trace the kind and order of the variations which have been superinduced upon its common or fun- damental characters," * so that the great features of the class might be seen. 616. Nothing would satisfy you short of a gallery that should contain every known species of mammalia in one room ? — I should much regret if the administrator, looking forward to the main postulate, that Britain is to have a national natural history museum, put it in any other light. 617. Will you be good enough, before the next meeting of the Committee, to examine the plan of that land to which I have referred, and inform the Committee to what extent it will provide accommodation if a building of two storeys ever were erected thereon, and in addition to the ac- commodation that the Natural History Depart- ment already possesses ? —I will. 618. The present Ornithological Gallerv is on the east side of the Museum, is it not? — Yes. 619. Then any extension of the buildings for the natural history would be very convenient, on that side of the Museum, more so than on the west side? — No doubt. 620. Or on the north 9 — No doubt ; the addi- tions would be most convenient if made nearest the present galleries. I should be glad if I were permitted to give the data on which I have been led to calculate the several galleries assigned in my plan for the different classes. I have already spoken of the data with regard to the mammalia and to the birds. With regard to the reptilia, we arrange the reptiles in a gallery 70 feet in length, divided into two compartments ; we exhibit there 296 species of reptilia, chiefly Saurian and Chelonian ; the total number of named and known species of rep- tiles now is 1,980, and we have in the British Museum 751 species ; but we have, including species not yet defined and named, in the British Museum, 1,590 specimens, and we exhibit 296. In this mode of exhibition, the large crocodiles and tortoises are fixed up high on the wall, and not conveniently or properly shown. With regard to two entire orders, Ophidia and Batrachia the great majority of those are kept in the basement crypts ; so that allowing for the due exhibition of all the orders, if 70 feet permits us to exhibit 300 species, 490 feet would be required for 2,000 species. But I have put down in this plan of 1859, a gallery of only 250 feet in length for the reptiles, by which I mean to express that I should not exhibit every specimen, or crowd simi- lar specimens together, but merely make such a collection on the same principles that we select now, and perhaps to a greater degree ; and I think, with such a selection, a gallery of 250 feet would be sufficient. I have, however, heard a contrary opinion from a gentleman more immediately con- versant with reptiles than I am, and he considers that this, so far from being extravagant, is below Professor the mark ; but in that part of our present space, ft, Owen. where there is a reptile gallery of 70 feet long, we, very incongruously, combine with them specimens 12 June of sea urchins, dried insects, and nests of birds, i860. separated from the bird gallery. 621. Is there any advantage in having a room so lofty that the upper part of the wall is not taken advantage of? — In my plan you will see that I have conceived a gallery similar to that at the College of Surgeons, and, if it were deter- mined to carry out the plan in a building of two storeys, then that height would not be required ; that would simplify the matter, and diminish the expense. 622. Chairman.] You have stated, with regard to the Ophidians and the Batrachians, that you do not consider it advisable to exhibit them all, but to make a selection ; why should you not apply that same principle of selection to the ex- hibition of birds?— Because the differences be- tween the Ophidia are much smaller, and of much less importance; they less relate to difference' of habit, difference of food, and difference of country than the differences in the birds. Nature forbids a Procrustean law for all classes. We must be guided, as to the proportion of each class, accor- ding to the kind and significance of the differ- ences that exist. With regard to birds, I must say that not only would I exhibit every species, but I see clearly, in the present phase of natural history philosophy, that of some species we shall be compelled to exhibit varieties also. The whole intellectual world this year has been excited by a book on the origin of species ; I may say, to a de- gree equal to the excitement caused by Mr. Gladstone's Budget; they divided the conversa- tion of the intellectual world, and what is the consequence? Visitors come to the British Museum, and they say, " Let us see all these varieties of pigeons ; where is the Tumbler, where is the Pouter ? " and I am obliged with shame to say, "I can show you none of them; " and yet there we give what we consider, some may think, an extravagant space to the pigeons ; but they are the pigeons of the whole world. But, as to show- ing you the varieties of those species, or any of those phenomena that would aid one in getting at that mystery of mysteries, the origin of species, our space does not permit ; but surely there ought to be space somewhere, and, if not in the British Museum, where is it to be obtained ? 623. I presume that the persons who make these inquiries are, to a certain extent, scientific persons ? — I must say that the number of intellectual indi- viduals interested in that great question which is mooted in Mr. Darwin's book, is far beyond the small class expressly concerned ,in scientific re- search. 624. Would not those persons to whom you refer be equally well satisfied with taking up a stuffed specimen from a drawer, and holding it in their hands, and comparing it with other speci- mens taken also from a drawer, as looking at it set up artificially in a glass case ? — I think not, and for this reason ; that the conclusion to be drawn can only be drawn by comparison, and the com- parison is facilitated by the position of the objects to be compared. If, for example, I wished to compare the small variations in the panels behind you, * " Report to the Trustees of the Brtiish Museum from the Superintendent of the Natural History Departments, 7th January 1857," Parliamentary printed paper, 379, p. 23 (1858). 0.96. G 50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Professor R. Own. 13 June , i860. you, it would be a very different thing if I had to take each panel from a drawer, and then compare one with another, than if I had them before me, and I was enabled to run my eye over the whole. I may state, that I have seen some statements in print of the inutility of exhibiting a series of species a little different from each other, which have filled me with amazement, having the strongest conviction that it is of great utility and interest to have such exhibitions, and to give such means for easy comparison. With regard to the class of fishes, the class of fishes is now arranged thus : we select from what we have as many as can be placed in a gallery, 70 feet in length, and there we exhibit about 754 species. The total number of named and known species of fishes is now 7,000 ; and whenever a species is named, and known, the chances are that it can be easily obtained. If it is a rare species, it is on that account more likely to be brought to the British Museum, as it gets a better price. We possess 4,000 species of fishes, and we exhibit 754; but the total number of species that we have in the Museum, which include the unnamed and the un- known, or rather the total number of specimens, including the unnamed and unknown species, in the British Museum, is now 12,000; so that, of 12,000 specimens of fishes, we exhibit 754 ; we exhibit to the utmost extent of the exhibition, space. But in that space there are very few of the shark tribe exhibited ; we have no exhibition of British sharks ; but there are sharks of 35 feet in length which frequent our coasts. In the pre- sent century there has been such a shark thrown up on the shore of Brighton, another on the shore of Worthing, and a third on another part of the south shore, a shark which is the largest living species of shark; that species has been thrown on that coast, on the coast of France, as also on the coast of Scotland ; but in a collection of British fishes we have not got that species in the Museum, which we ought to have, in its full dimensions. If the collection is maintained merely for the advancement of science, we might be content with a small section of the jaw, showing its peculiarly minute teeth, and we might pre- serve a few of the vertebras of this species, with a sketch of its external character, its position, and its fins, which would serve for scientific purposes. And by this instance I would illustrate my notion of what a national collection should be ; in a com- plete British collection we ought to exhibit the Selache maxima. Then the floor cases in the ichthyological gallery of 70 feet in length, instead of having the jaws and teeth, and those parts of fishes which are so useful for the applications of the Palaeontologist, are occupied incongruously with insects, Crustacea, and sponges. The great majority of our fishes, 12,000, that we estimate we possess, are hidden in the basement crypts, so that, if we were to exhibit what we have, we should require at least six times our present space, or 420 feet. Now, how much is assigned to fishes in this plan {pointing to the same), that is to say, upon the principle of giving proportionate space to each class ; it is a gallery 250 feet in length, and that with a prospective view to the increase for 30 years. I ask if that can be called extravagant ? I maintain that we ought to ex- hibit, for example, the salmon in all its stages — the parr, the grilse, and every stage; but we have not got space or materials yet. Then, with regard to osteology, the data that I could give the Committee thereupon would show clearly that the same moderate views govern me in pointing out the space required for osteology; and so likewise as to insects as to mollusca, and as to zoophytes, that is, supposing that they each had their own proper gallery, and were not to be heterogeneously mixed with the higher classes. Then I come to geology : The present gallery- gives us 400 feet of wall space and a small part of the floor. In the year 1856 the number of registered specimens in that department was 20,000, which, at the rate of three specimens in each entry, would amount to 60,000. My colleague, Mr. Waterhouse, and myself are agreed that that is about the average number of the; specimens that we possess in proportion to those that we register. In the year 1856 there were added to this collection of 20,000 registered speci- mens, 6,700 specimens; in 1857, 9,980; in 185S,., 4,500 ; in 1859, 3>550; that is a total of 24,630,.. making 84,630 registered specimens ; so that now, in 1860, the number of specimens that we have in the geological collection must be taken at 119,742. Now, the average number of the annual additions is 5,000; but it is most important in considering the necessities for future space to bear in mind that the most numerous additions have been made from fossils obtained from extremely limited loca- lities ; for example, in 1857, the year in which • we added 9,980 specimens, we added 6,414 speci- mens, which were exclusively obtained from the Oolites of Normandy ; it was the collection known , as Tesson collection. I went over to Caen to transact that transfer, and that transfer was made without any injury to any particular specimen. In 1858, when we added 4,500 specimens, 4,000 were obtained from Mr. Bruekmann, collected from the limited tertiary series of formation in Germany and Switzerland; and therefore, what may not be expected of future additions, as to which it would be my duty and Mr. Water- house's duty so to report to the Trustees as to obtain acquiescence in the additions that were asked for. There are fossils of one order of quadrupeds from one locality,, the Proboscidians from Sewalik hills, and they occupy the whole side of No. 32 of the north gallery in Plan. No. Ill; the space that we have left for ex- hibiting what is most valuable for instruction to the people, we occupy with one skeleton of the mastodon, and with another of the megatherium, with a small specimen of those large extinct birds of New Zealand ; a good specimen of our great deer, or Irish elk. Whereas we might show the restored gigantic armadillo, the most ex- traordinary of extinct quadrupeds, if we had room. As we exhibit the American mastodon, we should also show our British mammoth ; then there is the great cave bear, the megalonyx, the machairodus ; old extinct forms of oxen, double the size of the largest bovine animal that now exists, such, e. g., as the bos primigenius, of which we might get the entire skeleton,: to say nothing of the gigantic sivatherium, of which we can only show the legs; then there is the dinornis giganteus, that curious extinct whale called zeuglodon> which was exhibited as a fossil sea serpent at New York, and occupied in extent 170 feet, although when reduced to its true proportions it ranges 70 feet in length ; we ought to show that, and we might have had it ; we might have exhibited it if we had had space ; but as we had not, it was in vain to think of getting it ; there were two almost entire skeletons of the zeuglodon found in North America: they were bought by an American, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 51 American, and exhibited in New York, and then ultimately at Boston, where the sea serpent idea was exploded ; he brought them to Europe, but not to .London, he took them to Germany, and that specimen is now an ornament of very great price in the Royal Museum at Berlin, where it was • bought ; we lost it for want of space ; and, upon all these considerations, is it too much, instead of 400 -feet, to ask for 850 feet for additions for 30 years to come, and to do anything like justice to what we now have ? 625. Mr. Xowe.] Would the zeuglodon come into your estimate of five acres ? — Yes, it would ; and if I had the space, I think I should get the entire skeleton in less than three years. 626. Chairman.] Have you got the mytodon ? — That we should get by having casts made of that skeleton which I reconstructed at the College ' of Surgeons, at a very small cost, and it would be just as useful as the original. I have here a list that was sent me by an energetic French collec- tor, now keeper of the Museum of the Argentine Republic ; it is one of the most tempting lists of fossils of extinct animals of South America, but I look at it with regret, knowing that it is in vain to think of taking advantage of it. 627. Presuming that you obtained an exten- sion of space in your present locality, you would then be able to take advantage of some of these offers ? — We should, to the extent of the additions, and then we should be at our wit's end again if we made no provision for what may be so reason- ably expected to be the prospective rate at which we must increase. 628. Mr. Lowe.] Are you of opinion that the specimens you have got could be reduced in num- ber in any way? — I have no notion how it could ■be done, not consistently; they could not be re- duced; we could not part with any that would make the slightest appreciable difference. 629. Have you many duplicates? — I do not • think I can speak positively of a single one ; I should have to look very closely to compare them ; I believe they might be found in regard to cer- ■ tain shells, with a less degree of probability with regard to certain insects ; but this new phase of zoological physiology leading to the investigation of the question of the origin of species, compels us to look at those that we think are duplicates with an entirely different eye than we did before. 630. For the purposes of exhibition, I suppose, -varieties have become almost as important as ' species ? — Yes. 631. You have given some reasons why you prefer Bloomsbury to any other place ; one was for the convenience of the working classes ; have , you not other reasons, and if so, what are they ? — The main reason is, the proximity to the library ; that is the reason to which I have, on three different occasions, principally alluded. With " reference to the fifth paragraph in the memorial, K In reference to other suggestions that have been vaguely thrown out, of a breaking up of the ■•■natural history collections," &c, I believe there is no intention of breaking up the collections of natural history, and therefore, all that falls to the ground. The next most obvious objection re- ' fates to the library, the value of which can be es- timated; the third is, an opinion which may or 1 may not be true. I believe in the main that there . is some truth in it, about the advantage of Blooms- bury to the wage classes generally ; but that is an administrative question. 0.96. 632. Do you think that the object of the British Museum is to provide people with amusement, or with instruction?— With both; secondary to the main end of a national collection. 633. What is that ?— To exhibit series of created works. 634. That is, completeness ?— Yes. 635. You will observe that the Act of Parlia- ment by which this Museum was created, speaks of its being to fulfil the desires of curious persons, and for the information and knowledge of all per- sons ; is that a fair definition, do you think ?— I think that scarcely embraces what we now feel to be the object of it. 636. It does not point enough to that element of completeness ? — No ; it does not seem to show a parallel between the aim ; for example, of estab- lishing a national collection of paintings, or a national collection of sculptures, with a national collection of natural history. 6:i7. Your belief is, that the student of natural history ought to be able to find samples of every- thing that is known there ? — Yes, everything. 638. Do not you consider that the wants of the working classes would be, perhaps, even better satisfied if a museum adapted to give them that mixture of amusement and instruction, was founded in the immediate vicinity ? — Yes. 639. Although being far less perfect than the British Museum, it wotild answer the purposes better ? — Yes, much better, and at little cost. 640. I believe something of the kind is being promoted at this moment in the east of London? — Yes, I believe so ; I have been asked to draw up lists of type specimens for such a museum. 641. Do you think, supposing it should happen that the people who came there for amusement, men with their wives and families, should come in such numbers as to impede the pursuit of scientific investigation, that that would be an evil, and a departure from the great object of the institution ? — Certainly ; and that is provided for by the interposition of what we call private days, which are now two in the week. 642. Have you any other reason for preferring Bloomsbury ? — J have none, except the library. 643. You do not attach any weight to having all the exhibitions of different kinds together ? — No ; I do not see that that bears upon what I have much more interest in, and as to the success of which I feel more deeply ; namely, a good natural history collection. 644. Are you not of opinion that the attempt to blend every species of collection together is likely to stunt or dwarf some branch of knowledge or other ; that one is likely to encroach upon the other ? — I do not quite see how that would take place. 645. For instance, has not the book and manu- script department encroached upon the others ?■ — If there is a limited space for the whole, then, each department growing, of course they jostle each other when they come to meet. 646. When we have done all we can, we must assume that the space must be still limited ? — I believe that the space I have assigned in my plan would give very good and satisfactory accommo- dation for 30 years to come. If the requisite space could be obtained at Bloomsbury, where each class had its own fair share, and the exhibition was so arranged as to point out the connexion between classes, I do not know exactly what disadvantage there would be if a person chose, after spending a certain part of the day in the natural history G 2 department, Professor R Owen. 12 Jane i860. 52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Professor JR. Owen. 2 2 June i860. department, to walk into the contiguous collection of antiquities. I believe it would be impossible for him to see more than a small part of the natural history collections in one day ; any direct disadvantage from mere contiguity I do not quite see. 647. You want five acres more for your own department, as I understand ? — Yes. 648. Suppose there were some great discovery, like that of Nineveh, or Budrum, might it not happen that the trustees might say we cannot get any more land, but Professor Owen is very abundantly supplied, and we might take a little from him ? — Past experience shows that we should be the first sufferers. 649. Is not that rather a proof that there is danger in the juxtaposition of these departments ? — Very great danger, if the five acres were not guaranteed to the natural history department. 650. But what guarantee could you have ?— If there was none I believe that it would be a very great disadvantage from the possibility of inva- sion. 651. Sir Philip Egerton.] I see that you in- clude ethnology in your dismemberment? — I think that a most essential branch of natural history. 652. Not the idols, and implements, and dresses, only the natural history or physiological col- lections ? — Yes ; a collection illustrative of the physical characters of the races of mankind. Veneris, 14° die Junii, I860. MEMBERS PRESENT: Sir Philip Egerton. Mr. W. H. Gregory. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Puller. Lord Stanley. Mr. Tite. Mr. W. H. GREGORY, in the Chair. Professor Richard Owen, further Examined. Professor 653. Chairman.] At the last examination 1 re- R. Owen, quested you to furnish the Committee with the ■ number of superficial feet which you would 14 June require to carry out your plan? — The number of i860. superficial feet is 485,100. 654. Is the plan to which you referred upon your last examination, intended to cover five or 10 acres of ground, supposing the building to be all on one floor? — If the building were all on one floor, so as to give us the use of the whole of the wall space, lighted by skylights, it would cover rather more than 10 acres. 655. But you propose to modify that plan by making the building on two floors ? — Yes ; the nature of the specimens would admit of that ar- rangement, as I have specified. The bulkier and the more obvious classes of specimens might be seen and arranged on the ground floor, by side lights, and so the whole might be embraced in a ouilding of two storeys. 656. But I imagine that in a building of two storeys, covering five acres, you would not obtain the same space that a building covering 10 acres would give you, on one floor? — You would not obtain the same amount of wall space ; but cal- culating the number of specimens that require wall space, and those that require floor space, that objection would not apply to furnishing the required space for the calculated additions in 30 years on the estimate illustrated by this plan. 657. Would not the circumstance of having two floors rather disturb that progressive arrange- ment which you lay considerable stress upon? — The progressive arrangement would relate only to each class ; the arrangement, as for example, in the arrangement of our class of birds; but it would not refer to the arrangement of the whole of the objects of natural history ; for example, we now know of no direct transition between the class of birds and the class of mammals, there- fore, supposing the class of mammals to be ar- ranged on the ground floor, and the birds in the first floor, a building of two storeys would not affect a good and useful, and systematic arrange- ment of each class. 658. "With regard to the exhibition of the skeletons of osteology, will you inform the Com- mittee how far you propose to blend your skele- tons with the stuffed specimens, and how for you propose to keep a separate collection of osteology ? — In this plan, as regards the galleries of osteology, each vertebrate class is arranged in contiguity with the stuffed specimens, and that very advan- tage would be obtained by arranging the osteology in a distinct gallery. You will observe, upon this plan, that contiguous to the gallery of mammalia are two apartments for the osteology, of 250 feet each. Then comes the gallery of reptilia for the stuffed specimens and specimens in spirits, and the gallery for the fishes; contiguous to these is a gallery for the osteology of reptiles and fishes: and in this plan the galleries for recent osteology have the same convenient contiguity to that gallery which would be assigned to the fossil specimens. 659. Then, besides the osteological galleries, you would put the skeleton alongside of the stuffed specimen? — No, it would not be neces- sary ; the contiguity is so close that the visitor would walk in less than a minute from one to the other. 660. Independently of the space that you would obtain by the transfer of these collections to some other SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 53 other place, do you consider that by that removal the natural history collections would acquire any additional importance, and that increased liberality would be evinced towards them with regard to the outlay for purchases, for instance ? — In proportion to the utility and advantage following from an ade- quate display and correct arrangement of each class would be, I conceive, the estimate of the value of such a collection, and I believe it would be supported accordingly. 661. I see in the Estimates for the coming year for the natural history department, it is proposed to apply for a sum of 3,250 1. ; I presume you consider that that will be adequate to your wants for the coming year ? — The estimate has been very carefully made, and made, of course, as all our past years' estimates have been made, with reference to the space in which we can possibly put additions, and that has certainly in a very great degree restricted our request for a grant. We not only restrict ourselves in regard to opportunities of acquiring really valuable and useful specimens by purchase, in consequence of not having where to put them, but we restrict ourselves in accepting offers, or in prompting col- lections by English gentlemen in our colonies, who would be most desirous and zealous in trans- mitting to us the rarities of the colonies in which they live. We are obliged to check that at pre- sent, through absolute want of space to admit specimens in any way. 662. Therefore, I understand from you that your estimate of 3,250 /. maybe taken solely with reference to the contracted space which you have at the present time ? — Yes, exactly so. 663. If you had a considerably larger space, you would naturally require a considerable addi- tion to that estimate ? — The additions I believe would be made in a much greater degree by donations than by purchase ; but, unquestionably a great addition would be made in our demands for the means of purchase. 664. Would you advocate that any increased latitude should be given to heads of departments, to apply a portion of the annual grant to their departments in purchasing, without referring the particular purchase to the consideration of the trustees 1 — Practically, I have fond no difficulty to arise from the present arrangement in getting whatever we wished, in fact, that we have the means of exhibiting. 665. If the collections were removed to Ken- sington, how far would you think it advisable to retain them under the trustees of the British Museum, as at present constituted ? — That really is an administrative question into which I have not had time to enter. Such general views as I may have entertained I have expressed, on some occasions, in former evidence. I have expressed to a former Commission what I believed to be the advantage to our English national collections of natural history, by having a supervising Board of Trustees. 666. I believe in 1848 it was your opinion that the natural history collections were not adequately represented at the Board of the British Museum ? — I signed a memorial I believe, which drew atten- tion to the very small minority of gentlemen on the Board of Trustees who were interested in, or who pursued natural history investigations or studies- 667. You were of opinion that if a scientific Board were established at the British Museum, the natural history department would be rendered more available for science ? — I believe so. 0.96. 668. Do you think that the natural history department is now more adequately represented than it was at the time when you gave that opinion ? — 1 believe so ; my impression is that soon after that memorial there were some marked additions from scientific men made to the Board of Trustees. 669- Then, are you of opinion that the natural history collections are at present adequately re- presented at the Board? — We have practically found no difficulty in regard to the acquisition of the specimens, or in regard to any of the direct operations for the application of those collections ; we may have found that we did not get that share of the increased space that other departments had obtained ; we may have felt that we have not received those additions which we have asked for, or on the necessity of which we have reported. 670. I think in 1848 and 1849 you advocated very strongly the propriety of heads of depart- ments having a seat at the Board of Trustees ? — I am not aware of it. , 671. I will read to you Question 2654, put to you on the 23d of May 1848 : " Supposing a Board of . Management were constituted for administering the departmental affairs of the British Museum, at which Board the heads of the departments should have seats and voices, do you think that would lead to a better system of arrangement? Judging from the experience of the mode of managing the Hunterian Museum, I should think so " ? — Then, my mistake was in thinking that you supposed^ I meant that they should be, for example, trustees, whereas I was speaking only of their having a seat and a voice at the Board of Trustees : that is to say, I was thinking of the relation that I at that time held to the managing committee of the Museum of the Boyal College of Surgeons, in which no meeting took place at which I was not present ; I had a seat always, and was consulted, and had a voice ; but I acted virtually as the servant of that Board, and was not a member of that Board. 672. Are you of opinion that when the busi- ness of a particular department is being trans- acted, the head of that department ought to be present at the meeting of the trustees ? — There cannot be a doubt of the advantage of that. 673. Do you adhere to the opinion you ex- pressed in 1848, that it was very detrimental that the business of each department should be con- ducted by reports in writing instead of having the business transacted, with the head of the de- partment present at the Board of Trustees ? — My experience then was, and would be now from that analogy, that the business would go on with more expedition without written reports. 674. Do you think that those written reports absorb much of the valuable time of the curator, which would be better employed in the immediate business of arranging, improving, increasing, and elucidating his museum? — That would depend upon the subject; some subjects require that amount of deliberation, and also the necessity of having proof of the opinions expressed, which make a written report very valuable ; but there are many small details that would be quite as efficiently and much more rapidly effected with- out that formality. 675. Do you adhere to the opinion which you gave in 1848, which I have just read to you, that these reports do absorb much valuable time, and that the curators would be much better employed in their special business, than in drawing up these G 3 reports ? — Professor R. Owen, 14 June i860. 54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Professor reports? — Subject to the explanation I have E. Vwen. given, yes. • 676. Presuming that the collections of natural 14 June history should not be removed from their present i860. B j tej j s ^ your opinion that it would conduce to simplicity of arrangement in the Museum, to divide it into three different institutions, and as I it were, to trisect the Museum, taking the de- partment of antiquities as one, the natural his- tory as another, and the library as another, and to consider them as three distinct institutions under the trustees ? — With regard to the natural history department, I believe that its business would be more rapidly and efficiently conducted if there was no intermediate authority between the executive officer and the authority permitting • and granting the means for his operations, what- ever authority that might be ; the ultimate autho- rity I speak of. I am thinking now of the analogy in -the case of the Botanical Institution at Kew, of the Museum of Geology in Jermyn-street, and of the Museum of Mediaeval Art, and of Applied Art at Kensington.* ■677. Presuming that space could be obtained in the present locality for only one of the collec- tions, the antiquities, or. the natural history, bearing in mind the opinions which you have expressed in former times as to the ' propriety of retaining the natural history collection in a cen- tral locality, which do you think would be the most proper collection to be removed, say to Kensington, the antiquities, or the natural his- tory ?— I think the natural history. 678. Does that tally with the opinion which you have expressed as to the great popularity of the natural history collections with the working ■ classes ? — Quite so. 679. Is not Kensington more what I may call the art region than the scientific region ? — I do not know ; the reason of my answer is the considera- tion of the close connexion of works of art with literature. The antiquities and the library illus- trate the intellectual character of man ; it appears to me that the works of nature form a more dis- tinct subject, and if you are compelled to sepa- rate any — on abstract grounds, quite irrespective of any personal feelings — I should say that if a part is to go, the natural history collection ought to go. 680. I believe you have on various occasions expressed yourself strongly in favour of lectures being delivered at the British Museum ?— I think my expression of opinion would be rather strongly in favour of them being given in connexion with the national museum of natural history, wherever that might be. 681. If you will turn to the answer to question 2617 given by you on the 23d of May 1848, before the Commission appointed to inquire into the constitution 1 and management of the British Museum, you will find this expression : " Many of those collections in the British Museumnow, are in fact not doing their duty, and are not returning to the State, or to the people of the country those advantages which the Government and the people have a right to expect for the sums granted by Par- liament for their purchase and their conservation." Does that expression refer to lectures ? — Based on the analogy of the procedure by Parliament in the purchase of the great collection of the branch of natural history men under my charge, I drew that conclusion, both from that provision by Par- liament, and still more strongly from the many years' experience which I had of the different kinds of advantage which accrued to the Museum then under my care, from having that superadded duty to perform in connexion with it ; all of whifth, I suppose, is in this answer ; I still am of that opinion; nothing has led me to doubt the accu- racy of any part of that answer. 682. In reply to question 2713 you stated, " And -my firm opinion is, that the curator at the head of - each establishment ought to lectures with the charge of a public, department,.! requested^ and had thai request to a certain degree complied with, that I might con*, tinue to delivear lectures as the superintendent of the natural history departments: it was found most convenient that, those lectures, should be given elsewhere than at the Museum ; and having had some years' experience of the difficulty of lecturing upon and of illustrating the objects which are in the Museum at a theatre in another locality, I am compelled to substitute diagramatic illustrations, and perhaps to repeat lectures to those of my more: interested auditors who came to the Museum afterwards to see the specimens themselves*; I say, I have had three or four years' experience of the inconvenience of this arrange- ment, and it is my intention to submit a requesty with the reasons for it, to be relieved from that duty in future), and to confine myself solely to the labour of conservation. 686. Do you see any objection to lectures being delivered in the Museum by persons not con- nected with the Museum? — I think the objection that was mentioned by Mr. Panizzi is a very true one, and has; great, force ; and that the intro- duction of persons to lecture, and to use the specimens, under the charge of an officer here, by persons not themselves officers, and not responsible for the state of those specimens, would be most objectionable ; I do not think it would work. 687. You think that the officers of the depart- ment would have cause of complaint, and" perhaps of jealousy, if strangers were allowed to handle those articles that were particularly under their charge ; or, if they were compelled to attend those strangers and carry the specimens that they required to and from the lecture room ? — I do not think the objection would arise so much from any feeling of jealousy, as from this, that they could not feel themselves any longer responsible for the state of their collections. An extraneous lecturer might, and probably would, require the rarest and most unique specimen ; and if that were removed from the care and responsibility of the custodian a 4 by Professor, R. Otoe*. 14 June i860. 56 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Professor b y an extraneous lecturer, it would of course so alter R. Owen. tne responsibility of the custodian to the trustees, or '. ' the governing body, that I cannot contemplate the 14 June possibility of such an arrangement ever being i860. practicable. 688. When you expressed yourself so strongly in favour of lectures, did you then refer to an elementary or to a more scientific course ? — I referred to a course in which the widest principles of the science might be touched upon ; it would combine both elementary instruction and at the same time impart the newest facts, and the best established and latest generalizations in the philosophy of that department of science. The course need not be exclusively elementary ; I may state that such aims have guided the character of my lectures in connexion with the British Museum, and that I have found intelligent children, and many ladies too, taking the diagrams, and follow- ing the argument, and showing in conversation afterwards, that they quite comprehended the argument, and yet at the same time the lectures were not on the elementary facts of natural his- tory, but rather treating of the wider generaliza- tions ; and those arguments which are most inti- mately connected with other lines of intellectual work and thought. 689. Would it not, therefore, be possible for a person, not connected with the Museum, to give lectures in the Museum, and to illustrate those lectures by diagrams, instead of by having recourse to the actual specimens themselves? — He would use both kinds of illustrations, but not one to the exclusion of the other ; and it would be a great additional power of instruction for him if he could select the specimens. 690. Would it be sufficient for him to illustrate his lectures by the aid of diagrams, and refer his audience to the specimens in the Museum ? — That is an inconvenience to the extent of the necessity of that reference. 691. When you delivered your lectures on the objects in the British Museum, I presume you illustrated them by diagrams, and not by actual specimens belonging to the Museum ? — It is the rule of the institution not to allow the removal of any object from it. 692 I presume you have looked over the report of the special committee of the 26th of November 1859, upon the subject of purchasing ground at Kensington ? — Yes, I have. 693. You have perceived, no doubt, that the cost of the building, presuming that 5§ acres should be taken, would be 567,000 /.?— Yes. 694. The natural history collections would re- quire, according to your opinion, 5 ^ acres of ground; are you aware whether this estimate includes the fitting up of the interior portions of the building ? — I do not understand so from the report. 695. Mr Hardy.'] I do not think we have had from you an account of the space you would require at once ; you have stated that you would want 485,100 superficial feet altogether, for 30 years ; but how much would you require imme- diately ? — It would be about one-fourth more than the additional space asked for in the report from the keepers of the different departments, supple- mented by my own report in 1858, which will be found in the return moved for by Lord Elcho. I may state, in a general way, that the space asked for by Dr. Gray for the mammalia only, would be two-thirds, certainly one-half, of what I have set down for the future increase in 30 years. 696. Would you require half the amount of space contained in the building ? — I believe in a general way the fact would be very nearly approximated by saying that we should at least require one-half of the space, including the 485,000 superficial feet. 697. I ask, not with reference to the mode in which you exhibit at present, but with reference to the mode in which you propose to exhibit by your plan ? — Yes, one-half; but that would not include a small museum of typical objects, includ- ing natural history, which, upon my plan, should be so constructed as to admit of being lighted and opened in the evening ; nor a theatre, nor would it include a department which we do not now at all possess, for ethnology, or the natural history of man. 698. Sir Philip Egerton.] In estimating the accommodation that you would derive from so many superficial feet, have you taken into consi- deration the table cases as well as the wall cases ? — I have. 699. And the suspension of specimens ? — I have not thought much of suspensions from the roof. 700. Or attachments to the walls above the cases ? — I have not thought of that mode of exhi- bition at all, for I believe that to be only what we are driven to for want of space ; I should not use that mode if I had space, 701. With reference to the horns of the dif- ferent deer, are they not well seen when attached to the walls above the cases? — They are; but they are separated from the classes to which they belong at present. For example, most of the horns are attached above the bird cases in the bird gallery. 702. I speak of your new accommodation. Suppose you had a skeleton of a stag, to illustrate the deer, do you see any objection to having the horns of the Barbary deer and other allied species arranged above the skeleton of the typical deer 1 — I should have above the stuffed specimen of the red deer a series of antlers from the first year to their full development, and then another series, showing their progressive diminution in length, and increase of thickness according to age. 703. Then that space would be available for the exhibition of such objects? — It might be ar- ranged quite irrespective of the wall. I can conceive a light arch of iron, from which they might be suspended above the specimen. 704. You have not taken into your considera- tion that mode of exhibition ?— It really was not necessary. 705. With reference to the osteological collec- tion, would you exhibit skeletons of all the mam- malia that you could obtain, or would you exhibit only typical specimens, keeping the other speci- mens disarticulated for the purposes of com- parison ? — I should contemplate exhibiting a skeleton, at least one of each genus, in a general way. 706. But not the species ? — That would depend upon the nature of the genera. With regard to sloths, the two species of bradypus are so dis- tinct from each other, that I should exhibit a skeleton of each ; more especially as they are so requisite for comparison with a great number of the large fossil sloth-like animals. I should be guided by the characteristics of each genus. I do not think one could lay down a general rule. Speaking generally, it might be said that one entire skeleton of the male and female of each genus might suffice. 707. Taking SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 57 707. Taking the sloth tribe, you would require, I presume, duplicate specimens disarticulated for the purpose of comparison with the fossils? — Yes. 708. I apprehend that it would be impossible from_a small skeleton, one of recent sloths, to in- stitute such a comparison with the megatherium as would satisfy you ? — It is impossible, because the articular species are necessarily hidden in the articulation ; at the same time there are pecu- liarities of form and proportion of the entire animal, which are only shown by the articulated specimens ; we must have a duplicate series. 709. Referring to the lectures given at the College of Surgeons, who are admitted to those lectures? — By the terms of the Act of Parlia- ment, the Fellows and Members of the Col- lege, Fellows of the College of Physicans and Trustees, and certain other named persons ; then the College also set apart a gallery for the advanced students, those in the last year of their studentship in London ; and virtually the tickets are very freely given hj the Council, on appli- cation. 710. The general public are not admitted ? — No. 711. In contemplating lectures at the British Museum, would you restrict the admission to them to certain classes, or would you go so far as to have popular lectures for the instruction of the lower classes? — I contemplate lectures, the nature of which I have already endeavoured to define. Those are the only ones that I would assign to the keeper of each department, and such lectures I should certainly make free ; I should put no restriction on admission. From the ex- perience I have had of lectures in other countries, more especially in France, there has been no difficulty found to arise from perfect freedom of access to the lecture room for all classes. With reference to express courses of elementary teach- ing, I do not think that those would be advisable, or that those should be of a kind to be given in connexion with the several departments of the national collection of natural history ; I think that such lectures for the wage classes should be given in small and express establishments in which a type-teaching museum alone would be kept. 712. Then, in the lectures which you contem- plate at the British Museum, you would antici- pate very much such an audience as you have had in the last two years at Jermyn-street ? — I should. 713. Do you suggest that each head of a de- partment should have the duty imposed upon him of delivering lectures ? — Yes. 714. Would you limit that to a single course, or would you provide that each quarfer he should give a course, or be continually lecturing every week ? — That arrangement would a good deal depend upon the circumstances connected with the working of the Museum ; but I can quite conceive that it would admit of an arrangment of this kind. In the months from January to June inclusive, there might be lectures given at a con- venient hour (say from three to four o'clock in the afternoon), three times a week. One lecture might be on entomology, another on ornithology, on the habits and instincts of birds ; a third on geology, and on the same day, in the following week, at the same hour, the subject of each course to be continued; so that a person desirous of hearing the latest information relating to shells 0.96. or insects would know from the programme of Professor such a session that, on Tuesday, at three o'clock, R. Owen. in each week, he would find from 12 to 20 con- • secutive lectures on that branch of science. So 14 June that, in addition to the instruction he might derive i860. by walking through the Museum, by going into the theatre at three o'clock, he would, on certain days, find 20 consecutive lectures on entomology; so that it would come to three hours' work per week amongst the whole of the heads of the different departments and sub-departments, for six months in the year. 715. Exclusive of the time occupied in pre- paring the lectures ? — Yes. 716. Is it not the fact that many persons, having the highest administrative powers, have not any facility of speaking in public ? — Imparting the principles of a branch of natural history science would, I think, be a power generally found where it was understood that the head of the entomological department, or the head of the ornithological de- partment, should be expected to impart them. Of the number of lecturers on all branches of science in England and in London, of the number of lecturers at the different medical schools, for instance, very few of them are eloquent men, or endowed by nature with the faculty of speaking ; but they do give very good and instructive lectures on theit special subjects. 717. But I apprehend that in those cases the pupils are bound to attend a certain number of lectures, and whether the lecturer is attractive or not, has little to do with his' audience ? — A lecturer may be bound also to give his lectures, and the least eloquent lecturer frequently imparts most valuable information; and although the number of his auditors may not be great, yet the few who do go to hear him are generally fit. 718. But in a case like that of the British Museum, where the attendance would be optional, it must depend very much upon the popularity of the lecturer? — Some of the ablest lecturers in the Garden of Plants, at Paris, have, after their first or second introductory lecture, had their auditors diminished to six or seven constant at- tendants ; but you Will find that those six or seven men bear names that afterwards become of repute in that branch of science ; the seed has been sown ; and the instruction given. Latreille's course on entomology has been the intellectual parent of eight or ten first-rate entomologists. 719. If in the case of a popular lecturer his audience falls off so lamentably, how would it be in the case of an unpopular lecturer ? — I thought I was illustrating that idea, as I was in- stancing an unpopular lecturer, having none of the graces of diction, but imparting dry facts and principles ; not merely elementary information ; and yet at the same time who finds five or six men willing to attend the whole .course, the theatre appearing to a superficial observer to be empty, and the lecturer appearing to be wasting his time, but which he is not. 720. Would it not much increase the difficulty of obtaining the best officer for a department if you had two qualifications to search for, that of being able to lecture, and that of possessing the highest scientific qualifications for arrangement 1 — I am perfectly convinced that if the keeper of the entomology or the keeper of the ornithology had to show his acquaintance with the prin- ciples of either of those branches of natural his- tory by appearing before a public audience, you would have the best guarantee for getting the H best 58 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Professor E. Owen. 14 June i860. best men. I believe that that would be one of the conditions that would afford the greatest assurance that we should have properlyqualified men for the place. There is no duty that impresses upon the mind of the curator more strongly the deficiencies in his special department than having to illustrate the principles of that department in the course of lectures-] he finds that those prin- ciples require for their illustration such and such a species, or such and such a series of species, and he is called by that duty to appreciate and see that deficiency in a way that he would not other- wise do, and he is therefore stimulated to take the earliest opportunity for filling up that gap or that want. I speak now from personal expe- rience, which most strongly impressed this upon me; and much nee3ed links in the series of illustrations of the structure of animals in the College of Surgeons were filled up from my sense of the deficiency, being so strongly affected by the want of them to illustrate a point in my lec- tures. Then there is another thing, that, if you have not got the specimens, you have to apologise for the want of them before an audience, and there is always some man amongst the audience who makes a note of it : and over and over again, the next day, I have received notes saying, or tantamount to that, at all events, I can get you that specimen, or I know where it can be got, and the specimen has been quickly procured. 721. It appears that your strongest arguments for the establishment of these lectures are derived from the advantage which the collections and the curator would derive, rather than from the advan- tage which the public would derive ? — I have not made that comparison. 722. With reference to the written reports which are now sent in to the Standing Committee, will you specify what business you consider could be conducted viva voce between the trustees and the heads of departments, presuming that no written record is made of the interview ? — That is an administrative detail that would require more consideration than I have time to give to it ; you will find that I had the analogy of another mode of work in my mind ; I might say, for ex- ample, to the museum committee at the College of Surgeons, " I believe, if I wrote to Professor Eschricht at Copenhagen, I might have an oppor- tunity of getting some rare cetacea ;" they would say, " "Well, but now, how much do you think it would cost ? I do not think it would cost alto- gether more than 50 I. — Do you think we can allow 50 1, for that? I think we may. — How soon do you think you can get it ? I think I can get an answer in two or three months.— Very well, I think you may do it ? Very well." — That is what might be said; and a note made that Professor Owen proposed that he should enter into a correspondence with Professor Eschricht at Copenhagen, with the view of getting such and such specimens, and he was permitted to do bo. I then proceed at once to work ; I go from the council-room to my study, write my letter, and re- ceive my reply, and go on with the negotiation; and the next thing that the Museum Committee would hear, would be the fact of the specimen being obtained, packed, and about to arrive at such and such a cost, being perhaps 10 1, more or 10?. less, under the sum that I had estimated at first. No doubt, if all the stages of that procedure had to be gone through by written report, the estimate sent in, and permission given, and all the forms gone through, with regard to the mode of obtaining and transmitting the money ; — of course, I speak with great deference ; it is an administrative question, which I have very rarely thought of; my my business being to carry out what I am directed to do, rather than considering how directions should be given : — yet, it would be, perhaps, the best answer I can give to the question as to the dispatch that accompanies more direct inter- course. 723. Do you think that Parliament would be satisfied with such a method of administering the funds committed to the hands of the trustees? — I think that Parliament is quite satisfied with the mode in which Sir "William Hooker arranges and manages all his important and multifarious business at the Gardens at Kew, and I should desire no other freedom of action than is enjoyed by him. Supposing that I continued to supervise the affairs of the National Museum of Natural History; I hope to have no less freedom of aetion than Sir William Hooker possesses, or than the gentle- man in charge of the Museum now established at Kensington may possess. 724. Chairman.~\ You do not propose at all to exceed the annual grant that is assigned to your department for purchases ; you only desire to have greater latitude than is at present allowed you,? — I thought that I was asked about the advan- tages, or otherwise, as between a system of regu* lar monthly reports and more direct intercourse ; which advantages I conceive Sir William Hooker does possess without having to make monthly re- ports immediately to a Board, placed between him and the Secretary of State or Parliament. 725. Mr. PullerA You stated that the estimate of the space required for making provision for the next 30 years, according to your plan, was 485,000 feet ; that, I understand, means floor space ? — Superficial space. 726. That is internal space, I suppose, not including thickness of walls, or anything of that kind ? — It would be better internal space. 727. Have you at all estimated how many acres it would require, supposing the buildings were only of one storey ? — Yes ; it would require II acres and 21 poles. 728. It makes no provision for a library or theatre, or houses for the curators, and for an ethnological collection ? — Yes ; it makes provision for all those ; there are libraries, offices, residences, and everything to make the whole complete. 729. If the building were in two stories, have you any estimate of how many acres would be required then ? — I have said, in a general way, five acres, because I have made certain reductions. This plan of 1859 was the first general estimate, and reductions upon some of the elements might be made ; and then again, as I have stated before, it is not at all in contemplation that such a plan as this should be forthwith carried out, but only that the space of ground should be secured ; so that when additions were required, they might then be added on conformably with a well-devised and well-eonsidered plan. 730. When you speak of requiring not more than half the spaee of ground, provided the col- lections were in two stories, do you not lose sight of the fact, that you would then have side lights, and must have consequently vacant spaces m the buildings?— I have alluded to that con- tingency of putting the building in two stories. 731. Then, must there not be a waste of ground if the building is in two stories ?— I expressly stated SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 59 i stated on the last examination that there would be a loss from that source. 732. Surely, then, if a building on* one storey requires 11 acres to get, the same amount of superficial area, a building in two stories will re- quire a great deal 1 more than half of the 11 acres ?' -*— It would be certainly most desirable to look forward to getting it. 733. You must have large vacant spaces to ive light to the lower storey, must you not ? — > To carry out fully this idea, unquestionably. 734. Have you estimated how much the addi- tion would be ? — I have, of course,, reduced my view to the minimum in asking for five acres. I am aware that it would' not allow me to give to every class entirely the space allotted here (point- ing to the Plan), although I have not the smallest doubt that in 30 years such a, space would be re- quired; but to commence with, it would be a very great boon, an important element to the pro- gress of natural history, to have five acres, upon which we might commence. 735. Does your plan contemplate having any galleries ? — The upper storey might certainly have one ; in a building of two stories,, in the upper storey it would be very wise to contemplate, a gallery, though it might not be necessary "to add it in the first instance ; but the wall should be so high as to permit it. 736. In making your arrangements at first, you would provide for the addition of a gallery ? ^— It would be betters 737. I suppose in that case you would place in the galleries those objects that would be the least interesting to the public ? — Yes ; the small Specimens. 738. Chairman.} You have stated in reply to a question put to you by an honourable Memr. ber, that at the present moment the collections of zoology would require about 240,000 feet ? — Yes. 739. In a report of Mr. Panizzi's of the 10th of November 1857, I see that the opinion of the officers is that the zoology collection now in the Museum, in order to be arranged and displayed as. it ought to be, requires twice as much space as that which it occupies at present. The space which the zoological collection occupied in 1858, was 29,907 feet, and therefore, if it requires twice as much, space as that which it now oc- cupies, and double the amount of space will give room for a proper arrangement and display, how comes it that instead of 59,000 feet, you say at present it would require 240,000 feet?-^-. For -example, in Dr. Gray's, Report, alluding to fishes, he speaks of the exhibition of that class requiring seven or eight tim es as much space as is. at present bestowed upon them j and he is perfectly correct in stating that Permit me to explain, that; when in conversation with Sir Roderick Murchispii, as to, the smallest, possible limit or reduction, of this idea of providing space for the exhibition of the natural history col- Jections, on the basis of each class having its proper share of exhibition room, his suggestion pf the saving of space that might be obtained by making a b uu ding in two stories, and re- ducing it to the extent, of five acres, had re- ference only to the exhibition of the different classes of animals; and on that supposition I swept away the general or typical museum, to which the public might be admitted at night, and, admitted at all times when it might not be convenient for them to go to the different gal-: 0.96. leries ; I also left out the idea of a theatre and 'Weswr Other things ; and the five acres are the smallest fi - Outett, amount of space that should be calculated upon "~ J for the arrangement of each class, in its due l f«^ e proportion,, with reference to the additions, ac- cording to the present ratio of increase for 30 years to come. Now, with regard to mineralogy, the present gallery of mineralogy is 400 feet in length, and in 1857 there were exhibited on that space 17,000 specimens. In 1858, 4,000 specimens were added, and in 1859 the Greig collection, of 2,000 specimens, were added ; so. that since 1857 the collection of mineralogy has been extended from 17,000 to 23,000 registered specimens. Then, I find, that my colleague, Professor Maskelyne, thinks it of great import- ance to secure ultimately a very renowned and large collection of minerals, known as the Krantz collection; and I entirely concur with him in looking forward to its acquisition, with a view to making this collection of mineralogy most useful to its science and to the public. I also concur in the plan of having a crystallographical series as well as a series of minerals according tp their natural species : and besides these it wohld he most instructive, and would be a very attractive part of the collection, if we had the series of minerals arranged so as to illustrate the varieties of colour, and the nomenclature of \ colours ; because minerals are more determinate as regards the exact shade, and kind, and charac-. ter; of colour. A collection of minerals giving all. the varieties of colour with their nomen- clature and synonyms, would be of great use to manufacturers and other classes, who would see exactly what the colour was that answered to, such a name in French, or in any other language. That involves not only an arrangement of the specimens as to an increasing number, but also an arrangement of the specimens with definite objects, in which we should have frequently the - same species of mineral doing two different duties; a specimen arranged in the natural arrangement, and. a specimen arranged exhibiting a certain fact in crystallography ; and providing for a similar ratio of increase to that in which the increase has. gone on under the present conservancy of Pro- fessor Maskelyne. Seeing, therefore, that we have now 400 feet applied to mineralogy, it can scarcely be regarded as immoderate to look forward to the necessity for a gallery of 760 feet in length for the increase of 30 years. Then it is to be ob- served that about one-: third of the minerals, that we now possess have been derived from minerals, that are American ; we have scarcely any minerals from Africa ; none, I think, from Madagascar ; very few from China ; scarcely any from Japan ; very few from Borneo ; none from New Guinea ; and very few from Australia ; and yet we may expect valuable increase of minerals from all those sources; that, therefore, is a ground for looking forward for a prospective gallery of 760 feet in length for mineralogy. With regard to geology, I may state, that there are opportunities now of obtaining the largest specimens of geology, illustrative of one very curious family of Mam- malia, the sloth family, of which we have a single specimen in the megatherium. I received a letter from the head of the Museum of the Argentine Republic, calling my attention to no fewer than 68 specimens of fossil mammals of South America, of one-third of which he possesses the entire skeletons ; and of that particular order to which the megatherium belongs, he specifies no fewer than H 2 12 other 6o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Professor 12 other interesting forms, and some of those, I B. Owen, believe, we ought to look forward to possessing in the British Museum; upon that, and other 14 June data, which I think will have been given in my i860. former evidence, there are grounds, I think, for looking forward to an increase of that gallery to the extent at least of 800 feet ; a progressive increase. 740. I see at the conclusion of the sentence to which I have referred in Mr. Panizzi's Report of the 10th November 1858, these words : " That such a collection of zoology to be worthy of an institution like the British Museum, ought to con- sist of twice as many objects as it now contains" ; the space which you occupied was 37,500 feet ; twice that amount, without contemplating a future increase, would be 75,000 feet, which would re- present the double space which is required at present ; and double 75,000 feet, or 150,000 feet, would comprise the space contemplated for future extensions, according to this report of Mr. Panizzi; but the requirements, according to your plan, at the present moment for the actual collections is 240,000 feet, which is really 100,000 feet more than was contemplated in 1858, for all future extensions? — Yes; that will admit of no other conclusion or inference. 741. Mr. Monckton Milnes.] Did you state that you would wish the delivery of lectures to be made obligatory upon the heads of all depart- ments of the natural history collections ?— In an establishment such as is contemplated here, cer- tainly; that the gentleman at the head of each particular department, as to birds, insects, mollusca, zoophites, mammalia, reptiles and fishes, should have that duty to perform. The course need not be more than from 12 to 20 lectures. 742. At the same time I infer, that you see very great objections to allowing any lectures to be delivered by persons not connected with the establishment ? — Yes ; especially if they have the privilege of using the objects in the Museum for the purpose of illustrating their lectures. 743. Then how do you propose to supply the almost necessary lapses that will occur either from ill-health, or inevitable absence of the head of the department, or from the fact to which you have already alluded, namely, that the delivery of a long continuous course of lectures may be- come extremely inconvenient? — In a case, for example, where the professor of ornithology in Paris, is prevented by indisposition or other causes, from giving the next lecture, or the next two or three lectures, his principal assistant takes his place and reads his lecture. 744. In a first rate establishment such as is contemplated, you think there would always be some person who could occasionally act as a sub- stitute ? — I believe so ; and it would be the best training for preparing an assistant in due time to succeed to that post, and give great stimulus to his labours. 745. Referring to a question that was put to you, whether there might not be persons of very great eminence in natural history who might have natural difficulties in the way of expression ; have you found it very rare in any man to be a com- plete master of any subject in natural history, without being competent to explain it to others with more or less facility ? — I never knew of an instance in which such a one went into a theatre to impart his knowledge, who failed to impart it. I have known instances in which very eminent men in different departments of science, have not felt a desire to face an audience. I remember the case of my late friend Mr. Eobert Brown, and I am quite sure if it had been part of his duty to give an elementary course of lectures on botany, that the science of botany would have been immensely benefited thereby, and his lectures would have been amongst the most popular. 746. Do you think that the delivery of those lectures may be very useful, as it were, in forcing out information from men of retired habits who might otherwise pass away without leaving much behind them ? — I think so. 747. Have you any objection to state what you conceive to be the advantages of connecting the Museum of Natural History with so large and diversified a collection as that of the British Museum? — The chief advantage of the present juxtaposition relates to the library; there is a slight advantage in the amount of the teaching of the character of the human species, that we get from the collection of sculpture ; we do see in the Egyptian sculptures, and other classes of sculptures, certainly, the exterior characters of those varieties or families of mankind; but I think when I have said that, I have said all that can be predicated of advantage in reference to the present combination or juxtaposition. 748. Do you see any advantages in the admi- nistration of a large establishment dedicated to natural history, in the circumstance of a portion of its government devolving upon persons who have neither the education nor the interest in that department which those persons naturally have who have long applied themselves to the study of it? — I do not feel qualified to speak upon that subject. 749. It does not strike you that there are any ■ special advantages in that administration? — -Any' consideration that I have been able to give to administrative questions has been rather above my usual subjects of thought, and the whole that I have arrived at I have expressed in a very few words in my address to the British Association, and that chiefly from the analogy I have already re- ferred to, and the very direct, prompt, and admirable amount of work that one sees going on at Kew, and at the Museums at Jermyn-street and Kensington, particularly at Kew; the liberality with which Parliament meets the requirements of the director of that establishment for the magnificent addi- tions now in progress and being made there, appears to show that there can be no fear and no detriment if a man is equal to his task, if his heart is in it ; if he gives himself up entirely to the development of that particular national ex- hibition or any other, I think he has nothing to fear with regard to any restriction in receiving the requisite amount of grant for carrying out his ideas for the good of the public. 750. May not certain considerable advantages have resulted, by the combination of so many objects as are brought together in the British Museum, at a time when those several objects were of less importance and extent, which do not exist now that one of them ctoies before the- public with its own especial prominence and im- portance? — I think quite so; I think that the late development and growth of the three great divisions of the present noble establishment has been such, that, if all three were separated, they would form institutions of which an Englishman might justly be proud. 751. And SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 6l 751. And that importance which they have combination in the earlier ages of their history ? obtained may, in a certain degree, have been — Very probably, owing to the general interest excited by their Dr. John Edward Geay, Examined. Professor H. Owen. 14 June i860. 752. Chairman."] You are keeper of the zoolo- gical collection in the British Museum ? — Yes. 753. How long have you been in the Museum ? — Since 1824 ; I have been keeper since 1840. 754. You have been asking for increased space for the collections under your care, for a very con- siderable period ? — I have been asking for addi- tional accommodation for the collections, and more especially for certain galleries to be erected over the cases in the bird galleries. I first asked for a gallery in the room called the Mammalian Room, as it appeared to me that it would be'most easy of access, as there is a place for a stair to the gallery ; but difficulties occurred. I asked for simdar gal- leries in the long bird gallery, and I hoped that we should have had it ; but we have not. These galleries would give us immense accommodation for our collection ; many of the collections are now in the basement, and they could be kept in those galleries. 755. In 1857, 1 believe you calculated that if you had a gallery round the ornithological room, it would give you space for seven years to come ? —I may have said so, but I cannot recollect when. I know very well that it would give me a very large extent of space for animals, and for the various collections ; but I will explain that, in this matter, I did not consider that those galleries were so much for public exhibition as for putting objects away, in a systematic order. 756. It was stated in a report of Mr. Panizzi's of 1857, that the zoological collection to 'be dis- played, as it ought to be, required twice as much space- as it now occupies? — The whole question * depends upon what is meant by displayed. If you mean that we are to exhibit all the specimens that we possess, it would require an enormous increase of space ; if you only mean that we are to exhibit a certain limited quantity, and to keep the others in store, the increase of space required will not be so large. I will give the Committee one illustration of what I mean by increase of space. Our collections of insects are contained in 138 cabinets, consisting of 3,426 drawers, and 108 boxes, making altogether 3,606 cases, 18 inches square. Now, these cases would require 240 table cases of the size of those in the bird gal- lery, and consequently five galleries -of the size of the .bird gallery to exhibit them. But I must say at the same time, that I do not think it is desir- able that those specimens should be so exhibited, for, no doubt, they would be spoiled for all scientific purposes in a year or two years. Now they are all contained in one room of moderate size, and they are more conveniently kept for the scientific students, than if exhibited as above ; we exhibit a small portion in two rooms up stairs, in order to give an outline of the more interesting insects; and if the system of exhibiting is to be applied to the whole of the collections, it would make an immense deal of difference as to the space that would be required. I see in Professor Owen's plan, that he gives one gallery of 250 feet long by 50 wide, for the annulare animals of all kinds, whereas we should require at least six galleries of the same size to exhibit that one set ©f insects alone. 0.96. 757- Do you wish to exhibit a very large pro- portion of your collection of insects ? — I should not wish to exhibit more than we do now ; for, as I say, they are very easily spoiled by exposure to light, and they would lose their beauty. 758. Do you think that the public at large would take a very great interest in the exhibition of the different genera, particularly of foreign insects ? — I believe that the public at large would not take an interest in the matter, and that it would be an exceedingly tiresome thing for them to have such an exhibition ; I think they would rapidly pass through it. 759. Would it answer the purpose either of instruction or of amusement to exhibit a large portion, for instance, of the coleoptera ? — I think not. 760-1. I see in this Eeport of 1857 that the space which Mr. Panizzi states should be doubled for the zoological collections presumes a proper arrangement and display, and he says that he has obtained that opinion from the officers of the Museum. Did you inform Mr. Panizzi, in 1857, that you ,could make a proper arrangement and display if you obtained twice the amount of space which you now have ? — I may have said so, but it has always been a question how much we are to display. In 1836, when we first began enlarging the collections of the Museum, shortly, after the Parliamentary Committee, there seemed to be a general opinion expressed amongst natur- alists in that day, that we did not exhibit as they exhibited on the Continent, and that the. great thing was to exhibit as much as we could ; but naturalists seemed to have changed their opinions on that subject, and that it is not de- sirable to exhibit so many things as it was thought desirable formerly ; that objects are more easily examined by being kept in store, arid in boxes. The best means to make an in- teresting museum for the public, would be to show all the more interesting objects, and to keep, the small ones in store for study; under such circumstances a very large extension of space would not be requisite ; and the whole question depends upon how much or how little of the collection is to be exhibited. 762. Is it your opinion that the amusement of the public would be secured, and the exigencies of science complied with by a ver-y liberal exhi-, bition, of what I may call, typical specimens ; take for instance birds? — The opinion has been growing more and more upon me that the public would be much better pleased with a good ex- hibition of the finest specimens of a large size of each class of animals, if the more interesting of each class were displayed, than by an exhibition of an enormous extent, because as it is very easy to explain to an ordinary visitor, a hare is a hare, and a rat is a rat, although to the scientific man it is very important to have all the kinds of these animals for comparison ; and the idea has become confirmed, because I find whenever a person wants to look at a small animal, we are obliged to take it out of the case, and they are not interesting to the public in the cases ; on the other hand, the specimens are very much injured by exposure. H 3 * 763. Then Dr. J. E. Bray. 62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Dr. 763. Then it is your opinion that the scientific J. E. Gray, portion of the community does not require that very extensive exhibition that you have occasion- X4 June ally contemplated in your reports ? — I think that »86o,. that has been a growing feeling on the part of scientific men in the present day. I know that a certain number of scientific men sent in a memo- rial on that subject. I believe it is the general opinion, and their special desire is to have a scientific collection, separated from the more gene- rally exposed collection. I have always felt myself in this position, that one has not to con- sider one's own views upon the question ; but to follow what seems to be the general impres- sion. I have long felt a collection kept in store is most useful for scientific purposes; whereas there can be no doubt that a collection of interest- ing things is more attractive to the public at large. 764. Presuming that a person wished, for scien-. tific purposes, to compare, for instance, the va- rieties of pigeons,, in consequenoe of a book that has been written by Mr. Darwin, which do you think those scientific persons would prefer ; to have those varieties of pigeons stuffed and exhibited, or to take them out of a drawer and hold them in their hands, and 1 compare them one with another ? — I believe they would prefer them unstuffed. The ' few scientific men whom I know, and who are studying ornithology, almost; all of them keep their collections in skins. Mr. Slater told me that he had 3,000 species of birds, which he kept in cabinets, that he preferred keeping them in that form. 765. Then the result of your reflections upon this subject is, that the exhibition of every speci- men in ornithology is neither for the amusement of the public nor for the benefit of science ?— That is. the conclusion I have come to. If I had to re-arrange the Museum I should not exhibit as many specimens as have hitherto been exhibited, seeing the growing feeling to which I have > referred among the scientific men of the present day. 766. I presume that your former calculations were based on the supposed necessity for exhibit- ing everything ?— Yes ; the question asked was, what space would be required for the exhibiton, it was not a question of any other subject but " mere exhibition ; and my feelings were strong on the subject then; but they have been growing stronger and stronger from the intercourse which I have had with scientific men during the last two or three years. 767. Your change of opinion, I presume, has been very considerable since the beginning of the year I860, because I see in your letter to the principal librarian, dated on the 5th December 1859, that at that period you required three times, if not four times the space which is now devoted to zoology ?— The question was as to exhibiting ; observe that it is solely an answer as to exhibiting; 768. The expression is " properly exhibit"? — Yes ; that was the question entirely ; a question of exhibition; I have never made-^. secret of it, especially in the last two or three years that I felt it was not desirable to exhibit so much ; I con- sidered that it was advantageous neither to the public nor the student. 769. Entertaining the opinions that you do with regard to a comparatively restricted exhibition, I presume that you consider there is ample space in the locality where you now are to enable you to re- tain the natural history collections at the British Museum?— I should say that there certainly was space if the most was made of the space ; that is to say, if we had galleries erected, over the cases inth© rooms that we already possess ; we might want one room for the osteological collection ; otherwise I think we have plenty of room for a good exhibition, but we should want, on the other hand, a consider- able extension of rooms for keeping things in store, and studies, to enable persons' to make use of the scientific collections ; I think there is space already possessed in or near the Museum where such rooms could be built ; rooms like this or like those in a common dwelling-house ; would be as good as any rooms that could be made ; moderate sized rooms are more convenient ; they afford more wall room and more accommodation for study than having a few larger rooms. 770. You consider that a moderate extension of the British Museum on the present site would furnish ample accommodation both for your pre- sent collections and for collections likely to come ? — Yes, it is very difficult to say what collections are likely to come ; we cannot calculate upon what natural objects are likely to come in the same way that you can as to books ; it is very muchi more easy to get 20,000 specimens at first than 5,000 afterwards. The more you get, the rare* becomes the kinds wanted, and the more difficult it is to make a large increase. At the same time, it is utterly impossible to foresee what the increase may be, because not only is there a necessity for procuring specimens from the increase by dis- covery, but from the better means of preservation* or the better means of collecting ; for example^ shells which were collected 50 years ago are hardly fit to be seen now, in comparison with shells which are now collected and are now ex- hibited. 771. To refer to birds, do you imagine that an equal number of birds is to be procured from those parts of the world which have hitherto been unexplored by the natural historian as have been hitherto procured from all parts of the known world ? — Certainly not ; I find it exceed- ingly difficult to add new species from year to year ; it becomes more and more difficult, and we have to pay a large price for them, for the same reason. 772. Do you consider, as far as you can reason- ably calculate, both for the present collection and for future collections, that there is space sufficient in the locality surrounding- the British Museum ? — I think so, without any very great expense. 773. Do you consider that anything would be gained by removing, the natural history collections to any other locality ? — I do not think that any- thing would be gained by that ; first of all, the collections would be shut up from the world foi? a time, and there can be no doubt that ther& would be a loss to science while they were being re-arranged ; and then with regard to the collec- tion being separated from the library, even although the new museum may have a special? library, it cannot be as good as the one we now have near to the collection ; and then there would be the money necessary to be expended in re- arranging the collection, and in making the cases, and so on ; the present arrangement would be destroyed, and a new museum would have to be built, while one of a good and useful size is already built and in use ; and as to the notion that a - larger grant might eventually be obtained for a separate museum, all that I have heard urged upon that point can in my opinion be no recom^ mendation SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 63 mendation of the scheme to the taxpayer ; I doubt whether they will like to pay 200,000 I instead of 100,000 1, annually; lastly, I .may say that I never heard any reason assigned for re- moving it ; I consider the Museum now to he in Sfche very best situation for all classes of the peo- ple ; it is certainly so for scientific and literary men ; perhaps least so for the rich, who are fond of art ; but they seem satisfied, although it was sometimes spoken of by the Croker as " the unknown regions." I consider the union of all the different parts of the Museum here to be a benefit to the students and literary men, and ad- vantageous to the institution, as it 'obtains the combined support of the literary and scientific, and of the rich and influential classes ; therefore I think we should lose immensely by the removal to any other situation. 774. You gave evidence a short time ago be- fore the Committee upon Public Institutions ? — Yes. 775. The evidence you gave before that 'Com- mittee was very strong in favour of the general popularity of -the natural history collections, paa?- ticialaTly among the better educated of the lower carders ? — Yes, it is so. I believe it is one of fhe studies which affords them the greatest amount of amusement and delight, and I think the Committee would have ,no difficulty in satisfy- ing themselves on that point, if they were to walk through the Museum, and to observe the difference in the number of ihose who will be found looking at the "things in the rooms of the natural history depazniment and in the other departments. 776. I think you have already stated that many of the more intelligent of the working classes take an extreme interest in the British collections of natural history ? — There is no doubt of it. 777. I thmk you have stated that they are in the habit on holidays of going out vto botanise and to geologise, and to collect insects? — Yes, &ere is no doubt of it, to a very great extent ; and to give the Committee an idea of it, I may state that there is a little book which is pub- fished, called the "Entomological Annual," it gives a list of no less than 1,200 provincial British entomologists ; the writer says, that the list of those living in London is too large to give ; that is for this year ; it contains a list of the names and residences of 1,200 provincial British ento- mologists. I know that the list is very imperfect, and that in Liverpool I could double the list that is there given, and it is probably imperfect with regard to other districts >of .England. 778. Are you aware that in Manchester the working classes have formed an institution among themselves, to which they subscribe, for the pur- pose of meeting and exhibiting at stated periods the collections in natural history which they have themselves made ? — Yes, it is the case, and in several other towns ; I know two or three in London, and there are doubtless more ; and it is also the case even among the young men at Oxford and at Cambridge. 779. With regard to the working classes, you consider that they take a very great interest in these collections ; do you think that they would be exposed to great disadvantages if these collec- tions were removed to Kensington? — They do, and I think it would be a very great disadvantage indeed. 780. Do you think that that portion of the Working classes who reside to the east of the 0.96. British Museum, would be deterred from visiting these collections if they were removed to Ken- sington ? — To a very great extent ; I think there is no doubt that it would throw a great difficulty in their way, whereas the collection being, as it is, in a central situation, is much more easy of access to them than if it were removed to Ken- sington. I have heard very many people express their fears that such a removal was about to take place. 78 L Have you heard any of the working classes express any apprehension upon the sub- ject ? — Many; and not only those, but other people, who are in better circumstances in life ; they consider that it would be a great misfortune to have the collections removed. 782. Am I correct in supposing that the British Museum may be considered a kind of central point for scientific persons who dwell more im- mediately round the British Museum, whereas persons who are more devoted to art reside more in the locality of Kensington ? There can be no doubt of it; the study of natural history as can easily be explained is a study that can be pur- sued by persons of moderate means, whereas the study of art of necessity is combined with supe- rior education, and also with the necessity of a considerable income. 783. Do many of the lower classes coming from the country visit the Museum for the pur- pose of examining the collections of natural his- tory ? — Very many ; we have, on the average., about 15 ot 20 persons a day coming to the insect room, to look at the collections which are not exhibited ; the British collections, and other col- lections of insects, and whenever anybody comes and requests to see them, we let them see them ; if they say they should like to cofSe more than once, we ask them to put down their name and address, and I find, by looking at our book, that 1,200 persons have asked such permission since July 1857. When a man has once given his address, he is not asked to put down his name a second time ; he can come as often as he likes; many come from the country, and many also from town. The larger proportion of the latter, I think, Eve in the neighbourhood, east, south, or north of the Museum. 784. I believe there are many persons who have various >eollectk>ns who dwell in the neigh- bourhood of the Museum? — There is a large number of collections ; I dare say that there are, within a few miles of the Museum, from 200 to 300 collectors, more especially of insects ; they are the objects which are more generally col- lected. I mean collections of good extent, and implying considerable knowledge, and made for useful purposes. Many families have small col- lections, 785. Bearing in mind your replies as to the popularity of the natural history collections, and as to the great dissatisfaction that would be felt by the working classes living to the east of the Museum if the natural history collections were removed, supposing it were determined to sever either the collections of antiquities or the collec- tions of natural history, which would you say should most appropriately go to Kensington ? — I should think the collections of antiquities, but I should be very sorry to lose that collection. I think there are advantages gained when they are kept together, but if a separation is to take place, it is far better for persons who study art that the H 4 art 14 June i860. 64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Dr. art collection should be removed to the west of /. E. Gray. London. 786. Do you think that the class of persons 14 June w ho visit the collection of antiquities would find i 86 o- the same difficulty in going to Kensington to see them there, as the lower classes, who visit the natural history collection, would find in going to Kensington? — From taking an account of the persons who come to visit the art collection, it appears that by far the larger proportion live to the west of London. I have looked into the London Directory, and I find there are 500 artists, and more than 425 of these live to the west of the British Museum, and I think this proves that they find their customers live there. 787. The persons who would go to visit the antiquities, would naturally be persons having a more highly finished education than those who would go to visit the collections of natural his- tory? — That kind of education which the rich possess is certainly of the kind to enable them to appreciate those objects ; they have the means of appreciating those objects more than the middle classes, or that portion of the middle or lower classes who study natural history. 788. To appreciate the purport and meaning of the Egyptian antiquities, a man requires to have a certain amount of special education ? — Yes, and certainly it is the same, with the Grecian art ; you must have a certain amount of education ; there are few people who study those things, who do not like also to make a collection, but they can- not do that without possessing a large income, while persons with very moderate incomes can make very good collections in natural history ; multitudes of young men ; clerks in offices, with moderate salaries, make collections in one branch or another, some collecting birds, collecting small mammalia, insects, or shells, or corals, which are all within their means ; they are the persons who live in' the middle of London, or on the eastern side of the Museum, and such pay more attention to these things than those who live to the west. 789. In your opinion, it is the higher classes who take naturally the deepest interest in anti- , quities, and works of art; and the lower classes who take the greatest interest in the collections of natural history ? — That is my belief, and yet the artists have decided that they do not want the collections of pictures, or rather the National Gallery, removed to the west end of London ; I thought it was a very unwise decision on their part ; but they are the best judges. 790. Have you many duplicates in your de- partment of natural history ? — Certainly not many ; I have always tried not to collect dupli- cates. If people bring me large collections, and tell me that they will give me the whole, I say, let me pick out what I want and return you the rest. Duplicates require as much care as the general collection ; and if we buy, I take care not to buy duplicates. I am afraid that some part of the evidence which I gave before the Com- mittee on Public Institutions, was misunderstood. I merely meant to say, as I have said before, that the things which are exhibited are very often injured by loss of colour ; for example, 1 can cite an instance ; we bought Mr. Gould's collection of kangaroos, a few years ago ; he afterwards wanted to come to draw some of those kangaroos, and he declared that they had all lost their colour, so much so that he could no longer paint from them ; and what I had in view, when I said that we might furnish other museums, was this, there are certain specimens slightly deteriorated, not so deteriorated as not to be useful for a popular pur- pose, but deteriorated for scientific purposes, which might be spared for some of those small museums which I suggested might be advantageously estab- lished for the use of the working classes ; I did not mean for a museum much larger than this room, and yet such a museum would be very use- ful to the working man; although not the best specimens, they would be very useful for that purpose. 791. For district museums? — Yes; taking care to have here, for scientific purposes, the best specimens we can procure. That was my idea when I gave that evidence ; it is not a new fancy of mine ; I have often wished it ; I believe a similar suggestion has been made by the keeper of the printed books with regard to libraries being formed in districts of London in connexion with the Museum; I think I recollect something of that kind. 792. Do you consider that it could add, much, to the interest and value of your department if lectures were delivered ; presuming that you had a theatre erected on the present site of the Mu- seum? — I am not in favour of lectures being given in the Museum by salaried lecturers ; but I should prefer that lectures should be given by lecturers who made it their profession. There are a series of ( institutions where lectures on natural history are given; and I think it would be better that the students should come to the Museum to see the objects there after they had been to hear the lecture, rather than that we should give lec- tures ; at the same time, if it is considered desi- rable,! should make no objection; butldo notthink that the curator himself could well give lectures*; I think that the curator's time is fully occupied in his duties as curator ; and that a lecturer should be a person distinct from the curator ; I am in favour of whatever can be done by free competi- tion being so done, and that a lecturer who belongs to King's College, or the University College, or any other school in London, is far more likely to give a good lecture than a salaried lecturer. This is the result of my experience of the working .of lectures in Paris, Vienna; in Germany, and various other countries, some competition is kept up by another means ; that is to say, there are private teachers who, if the professor himself does not keep up his course, he is continually urged forward by their becoming more popular and followed after. 793. Lord Stanley^] With regard to the effect produced upon the more delicate specimens, do you find that any injurious effect is produced by the air and smoke of London, which would not be produced if those specimens were removed to the country ? — No doubt they are injured, but not, I think, to a very great extent, because we take great care to have the cases well made ; but no doubt they are injured; dust and dirt will come, and perhaps there might be less in the country ; but I think we should put up with the incon- venience, because the natural history objects generally can be replaced at a small cost ; they are not like a rare manuscript of which you can only have probably one, nor are they like a fine picture ; I would rather think it desirable to keep them in a more dusty place, where they are useful to the public at large, than to place them where they would not be so useful. 794. You consider that that is a necessary pro- cess ; a gradual consumption of the specimens that you have, and then replacing them by others &— Yes; SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 6.5 Yes ; but they are not so deteriorated by being kept in store boxes as in open cases. 795. Have you made any calculation as to the length of time specimens ought to last under those two circumstances respectively ? — No ; we had one specimen some yeai - s ago in the Sir Hans Sloane collection of a stuffed antelope ; and 1 believe if specimens are kept dry they will last for a very long time, but exposure to light has been found to be very injurious ; I know very well that a gentleman who went to France to compare some specimens, which he had bought here, with some x specimens in the Museum at Paris, found that he could not make any com- parisons at all, because all the specimens in the Paris Museum, which had been exposed, were entirely changed in their colours. 796. You stated, I think, that if any part of the Museum was separated from the rest, you would rather that it was the department of art than that of natural history ? — 1 did not say that I would prefer it, but I think if separation was inevitable it would be more beneficial to the public, because I believe that those persons who come to look at the works of art chiefly come from the west of London. 797. Will you be good enough to state whether under the head of art, you include all the anti- quities ? — Certainly, the whole of them ; I should be very sorry to see the antiquities separated except to go to a good building, where all branches of art could be exhibited, together with pictures, as well as what we collect. I am so fond of all branches of art that I should think it a great misfortune to lose them, and I hope the day is far off if they are to go. 798: What sort of proportion of the total number of specimens do you think it is desirable to exhibit ? — My notion is to exhibit all the large and more interesting specimens, so as to give a general idea of the arrangement of the animal kingdom, and of everything that was interesting to the public at large ; I cannot tell you the pro- portion, but it would be comparatively small, certainly. There are two reasons which will in- fluence the selection ; the first, that it is not so easy to keep large things in store ; secondly, large things interest the public ; whereas small things are difficult to see, and are not appreciated by the public, nor are they sufficiently seen by scientific men in cases to be of use to them for their pur- poses. 799. Sir Philip Egerton.] I understand you to say that the principal injury done to delicate specimens is by exposure to light? — Very great injury indeed ; I do not know any portion of the animal kingdom that is not injured; it injures shells ; the fine pink lipped stromb will become white in a couple of years ; it also injures insects in a very short time, and we are obliged to re- place ^them ; the butterflies continually ; it in- jures the colour of almost everything that we possess; birds' eggs become comparatively useless after a short time. 800. Supposing the natural history collections to be removed to Kensington, would they be likely to sustain injury from the light ? — Un- doubtedly, if they were exhibited, as the light in the purer atmosphere is stronger than in town. I do not know what space is intended to be de- voted to a museum ; but with an unlimited build- ing, and an unlimited grant, you might go to any extent in making a collection of natural history ; 0.96. I do not think that the public require, or desire, to have such a large collection. 801. \* ith reference to what I may call the exigencies of the collections under your care now, the insect room, I think, is very much crowded ? — Yes ; and the great want now is, and always has been, the want of places for study ; we have some rooms in the basement which are very inconvenient. 802. I have gathered also from previous wit- nesses that the most crowded part of your col- lections is where the large mammalia are ? — That is certainly the most crowded part of the exhibited collections, and if one were to remove a consider- able number of the small ones, one might show the larger ones to greater advantage, and gradually remove others as deteriorated. 803. The osteological collection is also crowded, is it not ? — That is not exhibited at all ; we want room for the osteological collection ; but in that case I would not exhibit the whole collection of osteology ; I would only exhibit types and larger objects in osteology ; because I am perfectly sa- tisfied (referring to the collection now in the base- ment) that separate bones are more useful than articulated skeletons for comparison, both to the anatomist and to the palaeontologist ; you can lay out a series of specimens for comparison of the special tone required, which cannot be done if they are mounted and exhibited. 804. That being so, can you inform the Com- mittee of any plan by which your requirements might be met on the present site ? — I think there ought to be no part of the upper floor, at least, that should be used as closed rooms ; the whole of the upper floor should be used for exhibition room; there are certain rooms used for studies now, which I think might be opened for the pur- pose of exhibition, removing those collections which are so shut up, to the studies which I think might be built without any great difficulty elsewhere. If the studies of my department, the entomological room, was taken away, and the floor of the print room was lowered to the general flooring of the entire building, a building might be made over the print room, and this room might be continued on to the back of the Elgin room. I think if such alterations were made, room might be found in our building for an osteological room. Then, as to the studies, there is a bit of ground in Montague-street which has been unoccupied for a long period of time. I pointed it out to Mr. Smirke, many years ago; the ground upon which Bedford office formerly stood ; at the back of the bookbinder's office, upon which, if you had a series of buildings like common dwelling-houses on it, it would form a succession of studies, I think it would be a very good locality ; it is within the walls of the Museum, and might be usefully applied. 805. Chairman.] Is that the garden at the back of the house of the Principal Librarian ? — Yes ; but there is sufficient room for the building to the east side of the site and house, still leaving a garden in back of it. It is as large as the ground of three houses in the street. 806. Do you contemplate merely the garden at the present moment from No. 30, in Montague- street, to the rear of the house of the Principal Librarian ? — Yes ; it is a considerable space upon which might be built some common rooms. I do not mean to say large galleries, but rooms of a proper size to serve for studies for all purposes ; I we Dr. '. E Gray. 14 June 1 860. 66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Dr. we want studies, and a building like a dwelling- J. E. Gray, house is as good a form as any can be adopted. 807. In case the natural history collections »4 June should be retained on the present site, and that i860. additional buildings be sanctioned, would you be desirous to seeing those additional buildings con- structed after the manner of the College of Sur- geons ? — No, I think not, a museum wants so much floor space, which that plan does not afford ; I think it a most wasteful plan for a zoological museum. In the College of Surgeons there is a succession of galleries which are well adapted for specimens kept in bottles; a zoological museum require quite as much ground space as galleries, if not much more ; the ground floor is wanted for table cases, they show the specimens so much better than erect cases; in the erect cases you only see the things which are on a level with your eye whereas in a table case you can see all the speci- mens expanded before, and all nearly equally well, therefore a building containing several floors is much more useful ; you could not exhibit insects in a building such as you mentioned ; you would want an enormous number of galleries to show what requires, five rooms, 300 feet long by 50 feet wide, to exhibit them in table cases. 808. Take, for instance, the exhibition of oste- ology, would not that be properly exhibited in a gallery over the stuffed specimens below ? — Yes, part of them might be ; but there is one thing I wish to say with respect to asking for these gal- leries above the bird cases, I never intended them for public exhibition ; I believe I have said so. 809. Mr. Puller.~\ Suppose you could arrange the matter according to your own judgment as to what was best, would you withdraw from the exhibition any considerable part of that which is now exhibited ?■ — I should gradually withdraw ; that is to say, as the specimens became deterio- rated we might withdraw a considerable part of the small things which are stuffed ; they could be kept in drawers ; I should withdraw the small things certainly at once ; the notion of moving has made one think all these things over in one's mind afresh to consider what one would do, and I should certainly think it desirable to withdraw certain portions as soon as the question is decided ; but the question of separation has been one of the greatest evils connected with the Museum, for it was started in 1836, almost before the building was finished, and I cannot say that the Museum has ever yet been arranged ; the collection in the new building has never been absolutely arranged ; it has always been in a state of transition, arising from the doubt whether we should have more room, or whether we should remain here, and what we were to do ; and really up to this time I do not believe that we have ever had any of the collec- tions absolutely and definitely arranged ; this has been very detrimental to the interest of the public. 810. At the present time you have a large number of skins not stuffed ? — I suppose we have nearly as many skins of birds in boxes as stuffed ; of mammalia, certainly not so many, I suppose one- third. 811. Do you think it desirable that all those skins should be stuffed, if you had room for exhi- biting them? — I keep them for the purpose of study unstuffed, and I think that the scientific men would prefer their being so. I ought to state that the number of scientific men in this country is very small, and that for the use they want of them it is not worth while for that pur- pose to make enormous and extensive collections of exhibited specimens. 812. Taking those parts that are in your de- partment, do you consider, supposing you could arrange them according to your own judgment, that the space now occupied for exhibition would be sufficient to satisfy all your wants '? — I believe so, and that it would satisfy the wants of the mass of the public at large ; that is to say, if I could have one room for the exhibition of the osteology. 813. Have you formed any estimate of the number of rooms, and what sized rooms would be required for the studies in which only objects should be kept to be consulted by students? — That would depend upon another contingency. If galleries were erected over the bird cases and over the cases in the other rooms, as they are in all the rooms occupied by books and manuscripts, then so many rooms would not be required as if all those things that I should put in those gal- leries were to go into the studies. I have not formed an accurate estimate. I think about eight or ten good sized rooms would be desirable ; but that would all depend upon the question of what is determined on the part of the Trustees ; if it is determined that those galleries are not to be, then we should want many more rooms. 814. Have you a house at the Museum? — Yes. 815. Mr. Monckton Milnes.] Is there no fear of injury coming to a large number of specimens when put together in drawers and rarely drawn out for exhibition? — We make it a rule to go through the whole of the boxes every six months, and every time that a collection is being used, it is like an act of examination; and when any addition is made to it, when any one comes to look at those things, you may consider that as part of the examination also. 816. Mr. Puller. .] When you spoke of eight or ten rooms, that was to accommodate what you have now, was it not? — Yes. 817. But looking forward for 30 years, have you made an estimate of what additions will be required? — I think that probably that number would do, because the number of animals in the world do not increase ; you get up to a certain amount, but beyond that you go on slowly. 818. What proportion do you think you have got? — I believe we have got a very large pro- portion; all I know is, that every animal we wanted to complete our collection that has come into the market for the last 15 or 16 years we have either purchased or obtained ; no doubt, a quantity of things will come from Japan, but the number will not be large. 819. Have you not been increasing very largely during the last five years ? — Yes, many specimens every year; but they do not occupy a large space. 820. Mr. Monckton Milnes.] Are the birds so prepared that they could be easily put up? — Yes; when we want to put up any, we put them up in the collections, taking them from those which are unstuffed. 821. Are they prepared so as to be inflated? — No, they have got a little cotton inside of them, so as to keep the skin in the best form for ex- amination and preservation. 822. They are not kept quite flat?— No; they are generally kept in the state in which they are brought by the collector himself in the skin, a little stuffed out, so that the two sides of the skin should SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 6 7 should not become quite compressed together, as that would injure them. 823. You say that you are content with the present combination of objects in the Museum ; ■ do you see any disadvantages in the absence of any living zoological specimens to contrast with and to compare with those which you now possess ? — I do not see any disadvantage in that respect, for, unfortunately, the stuffed specimens range very badly with the living ones, even by the best stuffers. 824. Do you see any practical advantages in the system pursued at the Jardin des Plantes, where you can pass at once from the living to the dead specimens ? — None at all ; for the general purpose of the practical zoologist, the stuffed specimen is most useful to him ; he goes to observe the manners and habits of the animal; but for description, the stuffed specimen is more useful to him. I was speaking to Sir William Hooker the other day, and he said to me, " I have come to the same I eeling as to botany, which you have as to zoology, and I think that for the purposes of the scientific botanist the herbarium is much better than a botanical garden ; and, therefore, I shall make the Botanical Garden at Kew more ornamental and more attractive to the public at large than as a pure botanical garden. 825. Therefore, if you had a choice in the con- struction of a new museum of zoology, you would not attach to it any living specimens ? — Certainly not. 826. Sir Philip Egerton.] I believe that Mr. Gould, the celebrated ornithologist, keeps all his birds in boxes ? — Yes ; with the exception of some of the humming birds stuffed for exhibition ; he even keeps the specimens of the humming birds for description in boxes. 827. Mr. Monckton Milnes.~\ Are you content with your present arrangement of shells ? — I think that we exhibit enough to show a very good general distribution of the larger shells. If we exhibited them all, we should want three times as much space as we have ; and I do not think that the public would appreciate the differences between the greater number of the species, for they are so minute, that they cannot be seen. 828. Are there many practical conchologists who come to look at the shells? — A very large number ; I should say that the shells and the insects are the two most popular branches of zoology; but the number of scientific students is small ; -very much smaller than the world generally estimates them to be ; I am very sorry to say so, and have done my best to increase them, but it is the case, The study of natural history leads to no means of making a living, except to a very few. 829. Chairman.] Do you consider it un- scientific to have shells exhibited in the same room with the ornithology ? — I do not know ; I do not know any other means which you can adopt; lean see no objection; some people go to look at one kind of object, and some to look at another ; I do not think that they interfere one with the other ; we could not exhibit birds well in the centre of a room ; or shells so well in wall cases, for the reason I have given; I think it would be a great folly to leave all the bird rooms vacant in the centre, or the walls of the shell room bare. 830. Would there be any risk in removing the natural history collections to a distance from the British Museum? — I think there would be a cer- tain amount of risk ; it would require great care, and it would occupy very considerable time ; but if it were done with very great care, I do not think there would be so much risk ; there would be a very considerable period of time during which the collection would be rendered useless. 831. Would the risk be much in packing and unpacking insects, for instance ? — Not so much ; we should remove them in entire cabinets. I do not think that there would be any very great difficulty ; it would require very great care in the process, during which time the collection would be useless to the scientific man. All the alterations which have been made in the Museum have never once either prevented the public from coming to see it or the scientific men ; the collec- tions were gradually moved from the old building to the new one, and everything went on as usual, but this could not be the case, if they were removed to a distance, the moving of a small col- lection, such as ours was in the old building to the new one, or of a small museum, like the College of Surgeons, is a very different affair from moving our present collection to a distance. 832. Mr. PuLler.~\ Would the expense of moving the natural history collection to a site at Ken- sington be much greater than the expense of moving them to a new building in the immediate neighbourhood? — Yes; I do not think that the ex- pense of moving the specimens would be great; there would be an enormous loss in the fittings of the rooms which would not fit a new building. The loss there would be very great. I do not know the amount, but the fitting up with cases, &c, of the zoological galleries here, must have cost a very large sum, and would be all wasted. 14 June i860. George Kobert Watekhouse, Esq., Examined. 833. Chairman.] You are Keeper of the De- partment of Geology at the British Museum ? — Yes. 834. Have you for some time been applying for increased space in your department ? — Yes. 835. Will you be good enough to give the Committee some idea of the amount of space that you require? — Perhaps I had better begin by stating the present area occupied by the fossil remains. The area occupied at present by the fossil remains is 6,678 superficial feet. There is a difficulty in giving some of these details, as the fossils and minerals are at present mixed in the same room; the floor is occupied by minerals; 0.96. the wall cases are occupied by fossils ; but those G. R. 6j678 superficial feet give the area of the rooms Waterhouse, occupied by fossils. There are besides that, 502 Esq. run of wall cases, which are in the mineral rooms, and likewise a few tables ; that is to say, we have six table cases in the mineral room, and the addi- tional space required to arrange the collection that we have at present would be shown by this plan {■pointing to the same), an area equal to rooms 29 and 30 upon that plan, in which the red pieces of paper indicate the size and position of the table cases. So far for the table cases and for the extra room. We should require also 180 feet run of wall cases to carry out the arrangement of the 1 2 vertebrate 68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE G, E. vertebrate animals, the mammalian remains, and Waterhouse, t ^ e ot h ers; this 180 feet would be equal to Es( l- the wall space which might be gained by ~~ r~ making skylights to the gallery in rooms 28, 30, rite* and 31 of that plan " Tlie micldle room has ? k ^" lights (pointing to the same). In a letter received from the Principal Librarian of the Museum, I was requested to furnish the statement which I have just made, in the first place ; secondly, I was requested to furnish an account of the space which would be required to accomplish the same object, namely, the general arrangement of the present collection, together with such improve- ment in the mode of exhibiting those articles which are now exhibited, as might be thought desirable. It is necessary to state that in arrang- ing the present collection, you might arrange it so that to-morrow that arrangement would be thrown out by the acquisition of a small number of objects. You might fill a large space, and any new fossils could not be incorporated without making a rearrangement to a certain amount necessary, and therefore I have taken the second paragraph to mean a kind of arrangement that would admit of our incorporating new specimens for some time to come. Under these circumstances the additional space required to exhibit the present collection, according to the second proposition, contained in Mr. Panizzi's letter, would be an area equal to . the rooms 22, 23, and 24 of the North Zoological Gallery. I was obliged to take some definite rooms to make my calculations from, and I chose those three. The area of superficial feet furnished by those three rooms is 3,657, and upon the supposi- tion that it were possible to add those three rooms to our gallery (I have made a note to this effect) that the improvement which might be effected by this addition would be as follows : firstly, the con- centration of the collection of fossil remains, by the removal of all the specimens at present mixed up with the minerals in rooms 27 and 28 : secondly, it would admit of the collections being arranged in such a manner that additioual specimens which might be obtained for a considerable time might be incorporated without seriously disturbing the general arrangement; thirdly, it would set free the wall case at the east end of the new room, 33, and allow a better arrangement of the specimens there placed. Now, supposing the col- lections were arranged in all those spaces which have been mentioned, the total area would be 15,737 feet. 836. Mr. Puller.] What is it now?— 6,£78 ; and from this you will infer that a very consider- able portion of our collection is not exhibited, and that which is exhibited is overcrowded. 837. Chairman.] With regard to the exhibition of the objects in your department, are you of opinion that everything that you have ought to be exhibited, or only those specimens which would attract the attention of the public ; or do you think that a portion of your collection should be reserved apart for the inspection and examination of scientific men? — I have heard this subject spoken of frequently, and the question has usu- ally been put in this way ; whether it would be desirable to exhibit only a type collection, or to exhibit everything ; I believe that is the way in which it is generally spoken of. On that sub- ject I have to say that it appears to me that the notions abroad about type collections are excessively vague, and that they convey not the same idea to any two men. For instance, there is, keeping to fossils, the group of shells called brachiopoda, these fossils are very characteristic of the different rocks ; a geologist jumps into a pit, and he finds certain species of terebratula, and he then pronounces the rock to be of a certain geological age. Some persons would say that in a type collection you must put a specimen of terebratula, and that would be sufficient; but in modern times that group has been split into, at least, 40 genera; therefore another man's notions of a typical collection would be, in all probability, to have each of those 40 genera illustrated by a single specimen of each, or by single species of each. Here we have our type collection already multi- plied 40 times in the number of objects, and be- sides this, in each of those 40 genera there are several very different forms; and many persons would say that you give a very inadequate notion of the genus hy giving only one species, I should put a few of each of those species. Hence, you see that it is a very indefinite thing to talk of a type collection. From this arises the question, whether, we are to exhibit — and I think it ought to come to this — whether we are to exhibit a very large collection, or a moderately sized collection. With regard to the collection that we do exhibit, I must say that a great many things cannot be dis- tinguished ; and I do not think it is desirable to exhibit things that cannot be distinguished ; they may be seen, but not distinguished ; there are a great number cf such objects, even when we come to tolerably sized vertebrate animals, such as fishes ; there are many fishes that we exhibit in the cases that no mortal could distinguish unless the cases were opened ; and, in many instances, he must take out his magnifying glass to see what the species is : no person walking round the Museum could make use of such specimens unless I opened the case for him. I would make a distinc- tion between the species that can be. distin- guished, as seen in the cases, and the species which cannot be distinguished, as seen in the cases. I do not think it necessary or desirable to exhibit things that cannot be distinguished, as seen in the cases ; I see no good in it ; but I see harm in it, and that an enormous space is occu- pied. I cannot help thinking that many of the visitors get rather confused than helped, by such an arrangement as that. 838. You do not consider that such an exten- sive exhibition should be made ? — I do not think it desirable to exhibit all the specimens; deci- dedly not, for the reason that I have stated, that they cannot be distinguished. 839. I presume you would leave to the keeper of the department the arrangement of such spe- cimens as he considers would be best calcu- lated for general amusement and instruction ?■ — I take it that the keeper in a department, such as mine, cannot divest himself altogether of a little vanity and pride in his collection, and I think under all circumstances he would be very glad to show a very liberal proportion of the things that he had under his charge, and if he we're cramped for room he would see no objection whatever to keeping a vast number of those spe- cimens in drawers which are only useful for the details of science, and essential for that purpose ; a scientific man comes, and he sees what there is in the cases, but he says, " This is not enough for me ; I want to see more," and we take out a drawer, and he sits down with his magnifying glass, and makes use of those things which he cannot do when in the cases. 840. I presume SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 69 840. I presume you are of opinion that there ought to be studies built for the accommodation of scientific men ? — That is the greatest and the most important want in our department. 841. Do you contemplate much accession to your department in the way of large animals of an extinct race ? — I think it is very probable that several large animals, which are already known, might within a moderate number of years be brought to the Museum, and which it would be very desirable to exhibit ; I know of several, such as the gigantic armadillo (the glyptodons) ; they are most wonderful objects, and would be very interesting ; also the mylodon, and there are many animals known of which it is quite pro- bable we might obtain nearly entire skeletons; and if we only got one-half, we should not hesitate to make a reversed copy of that half, always making a little difference of colour to distinguish the cast, or the model, from the real part. I think it is likely that we should have several large animals which it would be very desirable to show to the public. 842. Do you think it is likely that the collec- tions in your department within the next 25 or 30 years will require a gallery, say, for example, 800 feet long, by 50 feet wide ?— That would not be sufficient ; I perhaps may be making some blunder, for it is a most difficult question ; I find it so difficult to grasp itj because my feeling, I must candidly own, is so much opposed to spread- ing the collections over a very large surface ; I believe, really, that if it were done, it would foil its own aim ; that it would not teach but" confuse ; however, I have thought it over, and it has ap- peared to me, although certainly it must be a very crude guess, that such a space as that, if we ex- hibit everything, must in 40 or 50 years' time be required, and even more than that. 843. That is, supposing you exhibit everything ? — Taking 50 years, I bebeve it would require possibly as much as four times the space that I have now put down. 844. That is, presuming that everything was exhibited ? — Yes. With regard to recent animals, we can form an approximate idea of what is likely to be obtained ; but with respect to fossils, it is very difficult. We know so little of foreign countries yet, and of the fossil remains that may be found in them. But I must say that, in making any statement like that, I should wish it to be taken with a very wide margin, for I do not believe that anybody can answer such a question. 845. Do you think there are any particular advantages in retaining your collection in the present locality? — Yes. I do not think it de- sirable to remove the natural history collection from its present locality, because it is evidently very conveniently placed for the visits of the public, as is proved by the enormous number of persons who frequent the British Museum. As the visitors are infinitely more numerous on cer- tain days of the week and certain days of the year, such as the Monday in every week, and the day after Christmas-day (upon one occasion upwards of 35,000 persons visited the Museum on the so-called boxing-day ; and on the Easter and Whit-Mondays the Museum is very numerously attended); and as these are general holidays with a certain class of people, to whom even a small outlay, such as an omnibus fare, is a consideration, I infer that comparatively few of those persons would visit the natural history collection were it far removed from the centre of London, and, from 0.96. long observation, I am convinced that to the less highly educated classes the natural history por- tion of the collections in the British Museum is the most attractive, and I think that no part is so generally attractive as the bird gallery. With regard to the convenience of the scientific portion of the public, I understand that a memorial against the removal of the natural history collec- tions was drawn up some time back, and was very numerously signed by naturalists. I believe the natural history collections could not be removed without detriment to the specimens, at least, to many of them ; and that their removal would in- volve their being unavailable for any purposes for a considerable time. On the subject of the injury which might accrue to the specimens, it is necessary that we should bear in mind that objects might be lost through injury which could not be replaced. A very large number of the specimens in the geological department, like the recent shells, are attached to a tablet with gum ; the tablet bears the name of the specimen and a number, which latter corresponds with a- number in a general inventory of the collection, in which is contained the history of the specimens, their locality, the geological formation they come from, and so on. Now it is not probable that with any amount of care in removing an enormous collec- tion, the specimen could escape being dislodged from the tablets ; and in this case they would be- come comparatively worthless. No doubt in many cases specimens injured, or lost by the packing and removal of a large collection might be replaced by purchase, but were they what naturalists term type specimens — that is, speci- mens from which figures and descriptions have been taken and published — the loss to science would be very great. The natural history col- lection of the Museum no doubt contains several thousands of these type specimens. In visiting foreign museums, the naturalist's chief object is usually to see and examine the type specimens they contain, with the view of clearing up diffi- culties which he has experienced with regard to the accurate determination of such specimens. I have myself visited most of the principal museums on the Continent, such as those of Paris, Berlin, Leyden, and others, with this view. The risks attendant upon the removal of the collections would, of course, be greater in proportion to the rapidity with which they were removed ; for to save time, it would be necessary to engage many extra hands in packing, &c, and the difficulty of superintending the work under such circumstances would be great, and consequently the chances of mischief, arising from the carelessness or ignorance of the persons employed, would be increased. If the expense of procuring ground for building in the region of the present Museum be greater than in some other places, it will still be a question whether the much smaller area required for an addition to the present Museum, would not cost less than that for an entire building, which must include, not only a space equal to this addition, but another which must be equal to the area at present occupied by the natural history collection, and also space for that most indispensable adjunct, a library. Furthermore, the enormous outlay for books which will be required, the expenses attendant upon the taking down, removing, and refitting all the present cases, and those upon the removal of the collections, must be regarded as additional items in the general cost, were the collections to be transferred to some other locality. And then I 3 arises G.R. Waterhause T Esq. 14, June i860 70 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE G. B. arises the important question, what is to he done Walerhouse, with the enormous galleries left unoccupied in Esq. the British Museum by the removal of the objects ' of natural history? What objects could be sub- 14 June stituted, which would be equally attractive and i860. instructive, and, at the same time, equally intel- ligible to the great masses of the pieople who at present frequent the establishment? It is said that the British Museum at present contains an incongruous mass of objects ; they are, at least, united by the splendid library of works which treat of all the subjects which the objects illus- trate ; and I suspect that those persons who visit the Museum with the view of seeing some par- ticular objects, are seldom displeased by the accidental sight of some others which they did not come to see. It is certainly an advantage to the officers of the different branches of the establishment to have the power of readily com- municating with each other when their different studies may require elucidation, as often happens, through each other. It is erroneous to suppose that the natural history collections will go on increasing in the same ratio as they have done. 846. With regard to the detriment likely to be done to the specimens in your department, would there be any danger, do you think, in removing the large mastodon ? — The mastodon is in a very bad condition ; it is constantly being repaired, and this is made necessary by the mere walking of the people; the bones have been varnished and covered with composition and the outside hardened ; but the inside of the bones is rotten, and would all crumble to pieces, and I believe it could not be removed, or if it were removed, it would have to be so made up as to become worth- less. 847. Are you at all aware whether the British Museum is in what I may call the centre of the scientific quarter ; do a number of scientific men dwell in the neighbourhood? — I do not know that ; I only know that some time ago, when the subject was introduced as to whether the natural history collections should be removed, it created a very great sensation amongst naturalists, and a memorial was drawn up and numerously signed, and I was very much struck with the circum- stance of meeting amongst the signatures, the names of persons who live very far from the Museum. There was a question at one time as to the re- moval of the herbarium from the British Museum to Kew ; but one of our active botanists who was living at Hammersmith, and was consequently within a short distance of Kew, stated that it was much more convenient for him to come to London to examine the collections than to go to Kew. His explanation was this, that he con- stantly had occasion to come to London for other purposes ; at least, I believe, that was the expla- nation ; and he then took advantage of his visit to clear up his doubts upon botanical questions, whereas he was seldom led out in the direction of Kew. I have to-day heard of another person, living at Turnham Green, also a botanist, who has said that it was more convenient to him to consult the herbarium in London than at Kew. 848. Do you think that any of the working classes take any interest in the fossils in your department? — I have seen men with fustian jackets explaining to the people around them the nature of those fossils in a way that perfectly astonished me ; that is a very rare thing of course ; but I believe that the working classes know a good deal more of those things than is, perhaps, supposed; they buy cheap works and read them of a night, and talk about them in their little clubs ; I doubt, however, whether they attract so much as the recent, or living animals. 849. Do you think that the removal of the natural history collections to a distant locality would be regarded with the greatest dissatisfac- tion by the working classes in this metropolis?— It is stated so in every direction by everybody. 850. Do you consider that to be the feeling^ of scientific men in general ?— There is no question about it ; I believe that the memorial, although I have not seen it, really contains the names of all the leading men among naturalists. 851. Therefore, as far as your experience goes, both the scientific world and the public at large are entirely averse to the removal of the natural history collections from its present position? — Yes ; that is the case as far as I can learn. 852. Sir Philip Egerton.~\ Have you any sug- gestions to offer to the Committee with regard to the extension of buildings on the present site for the accommodation of the palasontological and the rnineralogical collections ? — I have a very strong impression that the best mode of providing in- creased space would be to carry a gallery along on the east side of the building, parallel with the pre- sent bird gallery, and that an extension of the geological and rnineralogical department would be gained by continuing a gallery light up to Montague-street. I think that we should be set free for a very long time, and that I should be able to obtain the large space which I have been alluding to. 853. What would be the length of that gallery ? — One hundred and forty feet would be the length of the part required for the mineral and fossil departments ; and its width would be 50 feet. This would be gained by knocking down about four houses in Montague-street. 854. Mr. Tite.~\ Eastward? — Yes; and that would enable me to add this space {pointing to the plan) to the fossil department. My idea is to concentrate the collection as much as possible, and that in this additional space I should have no part whatever; only a part that is at present occupied by the mineralogy, will be set free for me, and I should transfer those collections into the new room, and get all this extra space {referring to the plan), and as with this extra space for the table cases, I should still be ill off for wall cases, I propose that skylights should be made to those three rooms {pointing to the plan), rooms 28, 30, and 31, of the plan. 855. Sir Philip Egerton.~\ You think that that extension would meet the exigencies of your col- lection at the present time ? — And for a good many years to come. 856. If, in addition to that, you could, get pos- session of the north zoological suit of galleries, parallel to your galleries, you would be provided with accommodation, perhaps, for half a century ? — We could not exhibit everything for half a century; but we should be able to exhibit as much as it is necessary or desirable to exhibit. 857. Mr. Lowe.'] Have you received from the Director of the Museum of the Argentine Ee- public, a list of fossils which he has collected, and which he is willing to dispose of? — I have re- ceived a list of fossils from him, not to be dis- posed of; he merely sent me a list to show what discoveries he has made. It is quite possible that he may be able to get either some of those, or get others like them for us; but I have reason to believe SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 71 believe that all those specimens of which I re- ceived a list, are deposited in the museum at Buenos Ayres. 858. You do not think that he is willing to dispose of them ? — I have no authority for saying that he would not, or that he would ; what I re- ceived was merely a list of things collected by M. Bravard, and deposited in the museum at Buenos Ayres; he knew that I should be in- terested with his discoveries. 859. In this list there are no less than 68 species of mammalia ?— Yes ; I think as many as that. 860. Fossil whales, one-third of which are represented by entire skeletons; have we in the Museum any skeletons of extinct species of whales? — No; we have a great many skeletons of animals of South America, and from that same quarter, but no whales. 861. Have you any exhibited ? — No; we have cetacean remains exhibited, but not from that part of the world. 862. There are" no extinct animals of South America exhibited ? —We have a fine collection of South American mammalian remains. I should' think the finest in any museum in Europe. 863. Is that exhibited? — Yes, nearly the whole of it. 864. There are 20 kinds of extinct quadrupeds of the pachydermal order, some of them of the toxodont family peculiar to South America ; have you any of those ? — We certainly have some of them. I must say that M. Bravard is rather in- clined to multiply species ; I doubt whether there are 20 different species. 865. Have you a specimen of the toxodon ? — Only parts of it. 866. Is it not desirable to obtain one of those? — I think it is desirable ; but the Committee should understand that in making a list of that kind, a man is anxious to show the number of species that he has found ; he does not make a list of the skeletons of animals ; but if he finds a toe bone of an animal, different from any other, and he can determine its tribe or genus, he calls that a distinct species, a species may be repre- sented by a toe bone, or an entire skeleton ; we do not know. 867. If any one would give you a glyptodon, gigas, or large armadillo, have you any place in which to exhibit it ? — I should certainly find a place to deposit it in ; it is such an interesting animal ; I should put it in either of those rooms {pointing to the plan) ; this space {pointing to the plan) would hold it : the animal would be less than four feet in width ; therefore it could stand in one of those recesses temporarily, but it would be a very bad arrangement. 868. Have you got the megalonyx ? — That is an animal which is represented by very few parts of the skeleton ; we have casts, I believe, of the original specimens. 869. Have you got the mylodon? — Yes, we have ; not much of it, but we have some parts, and in fact the animal is moderately well repre- sented — partly by casts. 870. And the glyptodon? — We have got parts of several different species; amongst others, a very large piece of a carapace ; but there are other species much larger, which have been found nearly entire, and which would be very striking objects. 871. Have you skeletons of any of the 12 kinds of fossil sloth-like animals mentioned in this list ? 0.96. — I do not know the species referred to in the list. The objects referred to in it are not described. 872. Do you know whether any of these are the same species as any in Europe ? — No ; they are, no doubt, animals quite distinct from the European. 873. There are ten kinds of fossil carnivora; have you any of those ? — I am sure that we have some of those, but of the greater portion I cannot speak with certainty ; we are not likely to have all of them, but some of them. 874. There are 17 kinds of rodentia, and 16 kinds of ruminantia ? — We have several kinds of rodentia ; rats and hares. 875. Have you got the machairodus ? — I do not know the species referred to. 876. Taking into consideration the great col- lections of fossils recently made, and the dis- coveries in the Sewalik Hills, do you think a gallery of 850 feet would be too large for the purpose of exhibition? — No, not if we exhibit everything, allowing a considerable amount of time in which to acquire objects to fill it. 877. Mr. Tite.~\ You understand that that is six times the length of what you propose ? — Yes. 878. Mr. Puller.] You stated that the super- ficial area was 6,678 feet; is that so? — Yes. 879. That is your present area? — Yes. 880. Are not your collections of minerals and collections of fossils in the same room ? — That 6,678 feet gives the area of the rooms entirely devoted to fossils. 881. Besides that you have wall cases in the mineralogical room ? — Yes ; and a few table cases in the mineralogical room besides ; that is to say, we have wall cases to the extent of 502 feet run in the mineral rooms 882. You think that 15,700 feet would be suffi- cient for you at present? — That is including the three rooms here {pointing to the plan.) 883. You stated that that would provide for some time to come ; for how long, do you think ? —I should think for 20 years. 884. Is your arrangement at present geological or zoological .' — It is a combination of both ; there is another institution in Jermyn-street which is entirely devoted to British fossils, and in that the arrangement is strictly geological ; I had an inter- view with Sir Roderick Murchison when he was about to make his arrangements, and hearing that he was going to have a strictly geological arrange- tnem, I determined to teach something different from that; and therefore my arrangement is a zoological one, inasmuch as all the species of the same natural group are put together, independ- ently of the rocks they come from ; but when got together they are arranged geologically. We arrange all the ammonites together, and then in our subordinate grouping of them, we commence with the ammonites that are most recent, and so on to the old rocks. 885. The main principle of the arrangement is zoological ? — Yes ; and geological as subordinate to that. 886. Supposing you found the same genus in several different strata, you would not, I suppose, think it sufficient to exhibit one ? — It would be repeated ; it so rarely happens, that that would be a very interesting fact. 887. Chairman.] I gather from your evidence that, presuming you gained an extension to the east of 140 feet, you woidd be able to hand over 14 to G. R. Waterhov.se Esq. 14 June i860. 72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE G.R. Waterhouse, Esq. i860. to the keeper of the mineralogy all the cases in Booms 29 and 30 ?— No, it is the reverse; the re J cases {pointing to the Plan) are at present occu- pied by mineral's, and the yellow by fossils. I want this much more room (-pointing to the Plan.) It is by the removal of the tables from the Rooms 29 and 30, and this extension would admit of their being removed. Martis, 19° die Juriii, 18G0. MEMBERS PRESENT. Sir Philip Egerton. Mr. W. H. Gregory. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Knight. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Puller. Lord Stanley. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Tite. Mr. W. H. GREGORY, in the Chair. Nevil Maskelyne, Esq., called in ; and Examined. JV. Maskelyne, Esq. i860. 888. Chairman.] I believe you are Professor of Mineralogy, and Keeper of the Mineralogical Collections in the British Museum ? — I am Keeper of the Mineral Collections ; not Professor there. I am Professor of Mineralogy at Oxford. 889. Have you at any time required increased space for the collections in your department ? — I cannot say that I have made requisition for space to any extent. I have asked for certain con- veniences to be attached to the department ; but I have never yet made any demand on the Trus- tees for additional space for exhibiting. 890. What you have required has been a study for yourself, in which you could establish a labora- tory ? — I have required for myself a study, and also a laboratory; and, besides that, a room in which goniometrical observations could be made, and which might be my study. Those two things I required : a room for chemical, and a room for goniometrical observation, neither of which I have at present. 891. What is the extent of the present collec- tion of minerals ? — The actual extent I can only estimate, because there is no complete catalogue. There is a very large number of minerals ; but I may say, indeed, that a great number of those would not be worth cataloguing. At present, I estimate the total number at about 50,000. 892. What is the proportion exhibited r — About from 15,000 to 16,000. 893. Will you have the goodness to state to the Committee the amount of space that you require at present for the mineralogical collections, and the space that you think you are likely to require, in consequence of accessions that may arise within the next few years ; say, a quarter of a century ? — For the immediate present, I make no demands for space ; but I contemplate extensions, both of the mineralogical collection, and the collections accessor}- to that collection ; a crystallographic col- lection, and a collection of pscudomorphs, that is to say, of minerals which assume crystalline forms other than their own ; minerals which have, in fact, replaced other minerals ; and I may add to this, also, a collection of crystal models ; a col- lection, illustrative of physical characteristics in minerals ; and finally, in a somewhat distant future, I should hope to see a well-chosen collec- tion of rocks in the Museum. 894. Will the addition of accessions require a considerable increase of space ? — In answering that question I would take first the addition to the minerals themselves ; it is excessively difficult to estimate what would be the additions to the numbers of the mineralogical species, and to the variety of forms of the existing species likely to arise from the development of mining art, in the course of many future years ; it is very difficult to say exactly where, in what countries, and to what extent mining enterprise might be carried ; but I think I have not made too small, certainly not too large an estimate, in saying that in the course of fierhaps another 15 to 20 years, it might be neces- sary that I should have another room of equal extent to the largest room that I have now. The mineral collection at present occupies four rooms ; I think if I had five rooms, of which the fifth was as large as the largest room I now occupy, namely, about 84 feet by 35, that that would supply all the requirements for space in my department, say for 20 years. 895. Mr. Puller.] Is that the middle room on the north side ? — Yes. 896. Chairman.] When you say that you occupy so many rooms, you do not wish the Committee to infer that you occupy the wall cases ? — No ; I speak now solely of the addition to the actual mineral collection. The minerals occupy table cases which stand on the floor of the rooms ; and I should propose, and should hope also, to see the minerals always occupying that position. I have seen the minerals in collections abroad occupying positions on the wall, in cases, and I think they are, so, seen to a great disadvantage. That being what I consider to be the requirements for the minerals, I will proceed to speak of those other collections which I think must, in the end, be added to the mineral collection to make it properly represent, in an intelligent manner, the mineral kingdom. And first I would speak of the crystallographic collection. At present that col- lection, which has been made entirely since I was appointed keeper, only occupies a few drawers, and I should hope, certainly, some day, to see that collection SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. collection also arranged for the public to view it ; but not in wall cases ; because there I think the crystals could not be seen, unless in a peculiarly- advantageous position as to light (which, to be sure, might be supplied, but which we may not have), and therefore those also, I think, might be exhibited on the floor of the rooms without any very great absorption of space. The crystallo- graphic collection is of a kind demanding very small space ; the objects are very small, and not very numerous, that is to say, that 2,000 or 3,000 of them will go into the space which a few hundred ordinary minerals go into. I pass from the crystallographic collection to the collection of pseudomorphs. These also have been added since my appointment. I should not propose to expose the whole collection, but to exhibit well selected illustrative specimens of the class of pseudomorphs. I consider that it would be the best way for a case or two of interesting specimens to be ex- hibited, either in wall cases, or in table cases. Then I come to the question to which I have also alluded, which is that of a rock collection ; that would be a very important addition indeed to our collection of minerals ; it would need a great deal of time and care in the making of it; it would be a long while before it could assume the form which it ought to assume before it was exhibited ; and I cannot conceive a better method of exhibit- ing it than in wall cases. Finally, I spoke of certain minerals that should illustrate the physical characters in mineralogy ; to those also I would assign space in wall cases rather than in table cases, and it would include the models of crystals I have alluded to. Now, with regard to the question of wall space, I am assuming that in the progress of things at the Museum, or wherever the natural history departments of the Museum are placed, I have given up to me the wall cases of my rooms, or, at any rate, gradually the whole, though at first a certain portion of them only need be ; say, in the next five or six years a certain portion of them. At present they are occupied by palasontological specimens, which are very well seen there ; but in the long run I hope to see the mineral galleries exclusively mineral ; and those wall cases, or wall cases representing them, filled with specimens that may satisfactorily illustrate the different branches or departments of mineralogy to which I have alluded. It is diffi- cult to predict precisely, or except within a very broad margin, what may be the probable acces- sions to our collection ; but I consider that with an additional room of the kind I have mentioned, it is my business, as the keeper, to make the col- lection illustrative, and completely so, of the science of mineralogy, and, at the same time, to make it exhibit the peculiar characters of that collection (because every collection has its own peculiar characters), its wealth in particular kinds of minerals. We ought not only to exhibit the wealth of our collection in a useful and proper form, but we should also aim at illustrating the science so completely that not only any passer by, but even any one who is looking into the collection for an educational purpose, could find whatever of general interest or of special instruc- tion they might require. 897. There is a collection called the Krantz collection? — Yes; I may mention, with regard to that Krantz collection, that when I was ap- pointed Keeper of the Minerals in the Museum, one of the first results of my appointment was, an offer being made to me by Dr. Krantz of a 0.96. large collection of minerals in his private posses- sion. He is a large mineral dealer at Bonn on the Rhine. I asked the Trustees to permit me to go to see it, which permission was accorded me. I did not immediately avail myself of that permission, because, in the summer, I received an extension of my vacation, with a view to my travelling on the Continent, partly at least with a view to visiting certain collections, which I was very desirous of seeing. On my return from Vienna, I went to Bonn, and I saw Dr. Krantz's collection, and I made a report upon it to the Trustees ; and the purport of my report was, that I felt desirous of being able to purchase a con- siderable part of that collection. At the same time, the price at which it was put was, cer- tainly, a high one ; and before the arrangements had even gone beyond a suggestion, another col- lection was offered to me, on very advantageous terms, by Mr. Greg, of Manchester. This second was a collection very much renowned, especially for its British minerals : it was also rich in other minerals. I was sent to Manchester to see it, and the result was, that the Trustees agreed to recommend its purchase. The purchase of that collection very much altered the position in which we previously stood with regard to Dr. Krantz's collection, because whereas Dr. Krantz's collec- tion would have contained many duplicates, the acquisition of the Greg collection would render those duplicates very much more numerous. I should therefore no longer propose to purchase the Krantz collection in its entirety, or even any large fractional part of it, but merely to select those minerals that I might want out of it, sup- posing that Dr. Krantz would permit this. That is the precise position in which we stand as to Dr. Krantz's collection. 898. I presume that the selections you would make from Dr. Krantz's collection would not be very numerous ? — No. 899. You have used the word duplicates ; and it has been considered that circulating collections might be formed from duplicates, to be obtained from the different departments in the British Museum. Do you think you could furnish out of the miheralogical department any considerable amount of duplicates for the purpose of forming such circulating collections ? — My answer would be a very decided negative ; there are a great num- ber of duplicates; and many of those duplicates are nearly valueless repetitions of themselves, as it were; but I apprehend that in a circulating collection or museum of the kind you speak of, it would be necessary to send round, at any rate, such a series as should in some degree represent the science ; and it would need to be more or less complete as a series ; and such a series it would be utterly impossible to form with any complete- ness from the drawers in the British Museum. 900. Have you the power of getting rid of duplicates of exchange ? — Yes, I have ; that was a privilege that was accorded to me soon after I came to the Museum. I believe it was through the kindness of the Speaker ; he took the matter up with the Trustees, and they gave me permis- sion to effect exchanges. I can do that ; and a most valuable result has already accrued to the collection in the emancipation of many drawers for holding the better kind of duplicates and other specimens; and at the same time I have been able, through this power having been accorded to me, to get rid of a large quantity of what I can K only N. Maskelyne, Esq. 19 June i860. 74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE i860. N. only call rubbish, for all the purposes of the Maskelyn,', Museum, simply rubbish. Esq. 901. You have spoken of the necessity of oc- cupying the wall cases in the rooms which are at 19 June p res ent apportioned to your collections ; are you satisfied with the light which you have at present in those rooms ? — I am obliged to say that in two rooms I find the light excessively bad ; the central room of my department is lighted from the roof, and for many months in the year that light is suffi- cient ; and in fact at all times, considering the Lon- don atmosphere, it may be considered sufficient. The first room is lighted by windows on two sides of it, and excepting in the corner, diagonal to the angle contained by those two sides, I have no cause of complaint, but there is one dark case there. The second and fourth rooms are only lighted by windows on one side; and the side opposite to those windows is so dark, that I know by my own experience, when a sutdent of mine- ralogy in former days, that to attempt the study of minerals in those cases in the winter months is perfectly futile ; there may be days when it may be done, but not upon the average of days in a London winter ; they cannot be seen as they ought to be seen. 902. Would you not obtain a considerable addi- tion of space by closing those windows, and occu- pying the space where they are now, and lighting those rooms by skylights ? — Certainly ; that would be a great addition to our light, and a great addi- tion to our space. I would recommend not the entire absorption of the windows, but that up to 'a certain height it might be entirely occupied by wall space for exhibition ; the upper part of the space I would keep for ventilation. 903. You have seen, I presume, the arrange- ment at the College of Surgeons ? — Yes. 904. Do you not think that the mode in which light is obtained at the College of Surgeons from cross skylights is very much preferable to the single roof-light which you obtain in the room you have alluded to? — I think the light in the College of Surgeons is the best I ever saw, and very superior to anything that I have in the Museum. 905. Does not that throw the light completely into the cases ? — It illuminates the whole room in such a manner, that on a good day you can see the minutest object with the greatest accuracy. 906. Can you inform the Committee when the skylight was made in the room ? — I cannot give the exact date ; but I will furnish it to the Com- mittee. 907. Can you say whether it was anterior or posterior to the construction of the hall in the College of Surgeons? — I believe it was anterior. 908. Have you considered what would be the best mode of providing for the increase of your department; and, if so, will you have the good- ness to state to the Committee the conclusions which you have arrived at? — I have considered the question, as I suppose every officer connected with the Museum has done, repeatedly, not only with a view to my own department, but with a view to the convenience and accommodation of the entire Museum ; of course, also with a view to the question of whether it is possible to provide in the neighbourhood of the Museum space for our natural history collections, without moving them elsewhere. "Without entering upon the large ques- tion of the amount of space required for the natural history collections, I will hand in a rough 'sketch of the plan on which I think it possible to provide a good deal of space. It is a very rough block plan, and I should be glad to explain what I propose should be done, upon that plan, as I think it is one method at least of economically providing space in a manner that would be advantageous to us (the plan was handed in). 909. Lord Stanley.'] What floor is represented on this plan?— The upper floor. 910. The one immediately above the ground^ floor ? — There are only two storeys in the Mu- seum, properly speaking ; that is the upper one. I should say that while representing by that plan the upper storey, there are portions of the plan which will be upon the ground-floor. ( The Wit- ness explained the plan to the Committee.) I will now give the Committee a few figures to show the proportions of space that we should thereby gain. 911. Mr. Knight] Is a considerable part of this not now covered by buildings ? — It is covered by buildings ; but they are houses which have nothing to do with the Museum ; it is the block of buildings contained between Great Russell- street, Montague-place, Montague-street, and Charlotte-street. 912. Are there five acres and a half? — The whole may be ; I have not calculated the whole extent; but the principle upon which I have endeavoured to draw it out was this : Supposing the whole of the ground represented on that plan to be purchased, the reversion, that is to say, of the ground to be purchased, I imagine that by purchasing small portions at a time of the lessees' interests, those, namely, represented by a few houses, with their frontage into one or into another of the streets surrounding the Museum, galleries might be run out from the present galleries to occupy the space so purchased. I beheve that in that way, if a proper plan be first laid down by an architect, and the officers of the Museum combine to draw up a plan that shall ultimately be an effective and a good one, in which all could concur, as meeting the requirements of the Museum, that then those portions of the buildings, those galleries, might be run out as I propose, in such a manner that hereafter they should form a part of the design when it may be necesssary to complete it. I think it will be seen that it will be requisite to purchase a few houses here (pointing to the plan), in Montague- street. I propose to purchase those three or four houses (pointing to the plan), and to run a gallery out to Montague-street, and by a similar process, supposing the necessity to arise, we may run either of these three galleries (pointing to the plan) northwards, to Montague-place, and the space given to us by those four galleries would be very great indeed ; and I believe, if the fee-simple of the ground, I mean to say, if the reversion of it were bought, or arranged to be bought, now by the Museiim, that by the time we should want the houses that are now occupied in the intervening spaces, the leases would have fallen in, and we might really obtain this ground as fast as we wanted it, at a cost very much less than it is generally stated to be. I have no data whatever to enable me to go into the details of the figures as to the money question. I have only the means of going into this roughly, as to space. I cannot place it before the Committee with any architect tural exactness, but with a sort of approximation to what might be so obtained. I have labelled each gallery on that diagram with a figure, and I have figured these somewhat in the order in which SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 15 which it might be advisable to take up the ground and occupy it; and I will now state to the Com- mittee the proportions of space which would be thereby acquired. Gallery No. 1, will be a con- tinuation, eastwards, of our present northern gal- leries. I have made it a little wider than our present galleries, and I apprehend that it would occupy a space of 140 feet by 75, which would give us .about 10,500 superficial feet. I believe that the present north gallery, and the rooms that are occupied by the natural history on that northern side of the Museum, amount to some- thing like 17,000, or 18,000 superficial feet; another room would proceed northwards, and would start from the present situation of Pro- fessor Owen's and Mr. "Waterhouse's sitting rooms; running northwards from these, we should get a fallery of 160 feet by 45, giving us 7,200 super- cial feet. I may say that Doth of those galleries would be available for the purposes of natural history on both floors, or if advisable, on three floors ; then another gallery would run northwards in continuation of, and in a line with the present gallery, containing the vase rooms, and the Egyp- tian antiquities, and that would be one similar to the second, only that I apprehend it would be as well, when we were running it out, to buy the small portion of the ground intervening between the second and third galleries, which would repre- sent a few houses, perhaps about three houses, in Montague-place; the space so gained would be another 7,200 feet, or rather more than that. In this manner, by taking advantage of the space around the Museum, we should gradually build over the large piece of ground forming a rect- angle, lying north of the Museum, of which the base Hue would be the southern line of our pre- sent natural history galleries, continued eastwards to Montague-street, northwards to Montague- place, and perhaps westwards to Bedford-square. I propose then giving up one hah" of the space now occupied to the east of the Museum by the natural history collections ; and, drawing a line from there into Montague-street, we should be able to describe a figure, represented by the square, to the east, on this side {pointing to the plan), adjoining the rect- angle to the north, by which I calculate that the actual superficial space of the whqle so gained would be something like 100,800 feet ; that being only one storey ; if it is in two storeys, which I contemplate, it would, including certain one storey buildings and passages marked xi, A, B a C on the plan, represent a superficial floor space of about 219,200 feet, which is more than five acres of superficial exhibiting space ; the actual block space would be rather more than three acres and a half, in fact, nearly four acres. It will be observed, that by that plan, I give up the ground now occu- pied by the botanical and the natural history departments, as far as half way up the eastern side of the Museum, and that might be devoted to an ethnological department, as linking us on, which is a very important matter, to the department of antiquities, which would have the rest of the buildings to the west and south, the library oc- cupying the space it now has; and if it should become necessary hereafter further to extend the library, this might be done by occupying the spaces left for light between the several intersect- ing galleries, to the height of the windows, on the groundfloor, in the ingenious manner, so econo- mical of light and space, which has been adopted for the present new library, between the central dome and the quadrangle of the Museum. These 0.96. additions for the library would be of iron, and the N. light from above would be perfectly sufficient for MaskelyMe, them. I h^ve thus endeavoured to meet the dif- Esq. ficulty, supposing that we had to meet that diffi- ~~ culty at the British Museum, of finding space. I9 Sfi Une I feel that we should not in this way provide all the space demanded by some advocates for very large extension ; but if we remained there it is a method, I think, of dividing out the space which would be advantageous to all parties. 913. Chairman.'] Am I to understand that you consider the requirements of the Museum would necessitate the immediate construction and occu- pation of all these galleries which you have sketched out? — I have contemplated their being very gradually and slowly formed. They would give us, including the portions of the present galleries which I propose to retain for natural history, nearly 5 J acres of exhibiting space. 914. I presume that in any plan of this descrip- tion you would, of course, consider it requisite to provide accommodation for studies, not merely for the keepers of the departments, but for scientific persons who might wish to consult specimens in the different collections ? — Most certainly ; I think that that is a most important thing. I hardly see how a collection is to be made available to the scientific public unless they have access to it with their hands and eyes, and that can only be done in a study. 915. You have stated that out of 50,000 speci- mens in your department, you exhibit about 15,000 ? — B-ather more than that. 916. Do you think that a more extensive exhibition is calculated to promote either the amusement of the ordinary visitors, or to ad- vance the interests of science ? — If a larger ex- hibition is to be made of our present stock of duplicates, I- should consider that the effect pro- duced by the collection would be very much diminished, both with regard to scientific interest, and to the interest which every passer-by feels, because we have nothing but inferior duplicates! n the drawers, with the exception of the crystallo- graphic collections which I have mentioned, and by far the greater number of those duplicates is positively rubbish. 917. Do you think, as a general rule, that a very extensive exhibition is calculated to promote the amusement of the public, or do you consider that, unless it is of a nature to fix their attention, it will be rather more calculated to bewilder and confuse them than to amuse or instruct them ?- — The public is such a large word ! 918. Then say an ordinary spectator? — One has to consider who one is exhibiting for ; but to me the question has always come from another point of view. I consider that it is my duty, as keeper, to exhibit in the space allotted to me as much as possible, and that as well as I can. I believe there is a limit beyond which the addi- tional exhibition of specimens, although of course, in some respects, an advantage, is not equally so in all respects ; that is, it is not in proportion an advantage to the person who looks on the speci- mens, that he should have before him an enormous number exhibited udder conditions in which it is impossible to distinguish their peculiarities. I think there is an impression made on the public mind by a very large exhibition, which is not to be lost sight of ; but I think, certainly, there is a tendency to confuse in a very large number of specimens, and that is not also to be forgotten ; but the difficulty of drawing a line between those, k2 is 7 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE xV. is one which has to be estimated through a great Maskelyne, many considerations. My view is a personal one, Esq- namely, that I have so much space, and it is my ~ business to make that space as available as pos- 19 June gible. I am afraid that I can hardly give a more 1 definite answer to that question. 919. With regard to the scientific inquirer, do you think that he would prefer a very large exhi- bition, or that he might have an opportunity of taking specimens out of the drawers, and com- paring them, if there were studies provided to enable him to prosecute his researches? — Most assuredly my own experience has been, that a specimen, in my hand, is always worth five speci- mens in a case ; you can learn more from the examination of a specimen with that minuteness with which alone you can profitably study a mineralogical collection, than by looking at a whole collection of ordinary specimens, or indeed of extraordinary specimens, if you do not see them properly ; I think it is most important for the scientific man, that he should be enabled to handle and examine any specimen and all specimens ; and therefore their exhibition, provided there is the means of doing it, is to the scientific man a matter of comparatively small importance. 920. Do you think that an increased exhibition in your department would be of that benefit that it would justify the expense that it would entail? — I think, when you get beyond a certain point in exhibition ; I only speak of my own depart- ment; but in my department, after you have exhibited a certain number of mineral specimens, which perhaps possess a very high intrinsic value, either from their rarity or peculiarity of form or locality ; after you have exhibited a certain num- ber of those, the exhibition of a great number more seems to me to become very much a question of economy ; you will soon come to the point at which the minerals are at present; the present duplicates themselves would not be worth the Value of the ground on which they stood ; if we exhibited all the duplicates, or anything like a large proportion of them, really the ground upon which they stood would be worth more than the minerals ; and I cannot conceive that it would be a right thing to exhibit them under those circum- stances. 92 1 . I believe you signed a memorial, on the part of the promoters of science, in 1858 '! — I was one of the signers. 922. The object of that memorial was that the natural history collections of the British Museum should remain in their present locality ? — Yes, that was one of the objects. 923. Do you still coincide in the reasons as- signed in that memorial for retaining the natural history collections in their present situation? — So far as I recollect, I think I do, very com- pletely. 924. Do you still believe in the generals popu- larity of the natural history collections in the British Museum ? — Yes, most certainly I do ; I do not speak so strongly as to say that they are more popular than any other collections, but I think I may say fairly that they are at least as popular as any. 925. Have you had any personal experience of the interest taken by any of the more intelligent portion of the working classes, in the natural his- tory collections, in your department ? — It is often a subject of great interest to me on a public day, to walk in the gallery, and observe the different kinds of observations made, and the attention given by the different people to the minerals ; and I think it is only due to the working men, who come, to say that many of them exhibit an amount of intelligence and an amount of interest in the subjects they look at, both as to the minerals and other things, which involves a very close atten- tion, and is of a high character, and which does them much honour ; a great many pass by, and may call the fossil bones " a lot of old bones." I have heard them speak of the minerals as " pretty stones ;" on the other hand, there are many who most certainly come there with a view and a desire of deriving from the Museum a higher kind of instruction. 926. Do you believe that the removal of the natural history 1 collections to Kensington would be viewed with dissatisfaction by the lower classes ? — I should think that just in proportion to their interest in a collection of that kind would be their desire to have it at hand. Assuredly a museum on the present edge of London .cannot have the same interest for the present Londoners that a building in the heart of London has. 927. Do you believe that the opinion of scientific men, as far as you have been able to gather it, is in favour of retaining the natural history collec- tions where they are ? — There are scientific men who take one view, and scientific men who take another, but I think that those most in favour of moving from the British Museum found their arguments certainly not upon the question of whether Kensington is not a worse position than the Museum, because I think they admit that, but on the ground that they would get more space there, and that is a very intelligible ground, and one well worth weighing. 928. Do you consider scientific collections to be inconsistent with the other objects contained in the Museum ? — My own view of the whole ob- jects of the Museum, and the collections there, is one very much at variance with that idea ; I can- not but think that the separation, must tend entirely to alter the character of the Museum. I look on the objects there from a different point of view from that of the merely scientific man. I have heard that it has been stated that the Museum is to represent, in a certain way, the life of the nation ; I think you must take it to represent also the intelligence of the nation, its brain, as it were, and I conceive that if it does that properly, if the collections in the Museum truly represent, as they ought to do, the progress and state, at any time of the intelligence of the nation, and if the officers are selected, as being really able to give to them that character, I think the more you get together; and the more it really represents, and with the more completeness, the better. It is now the greatest collection of great collections in the world, and when you separate it, it will be dis- cussed piecemeal ; every one will say, " Is this col- lection better than that collection abroad ? " where- as now no one can deny that the British Museum, as it stands, is the most magnificent collection of collections in existence, from its library to its mineralogical collection. 929. Have you ever had an opportunity of ascertaining the opinion of intelligent foreigners with regard to maintaining so many collections together ?— It is a question that I have often put to foreigners. I felt strongly on it myself, and I do not ever remember to have been told by any one that he thought a separation was desirable. I was talking to one the other day, a gentleman very- much respected in Vienna, Professor von Hoch- stetter, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 77 stetter, Professor of Mineralogy and Geology in the Imperial Polytechnic Institute of Vienna ; he is also a great ethnologist. I was asking him about the collections in Vienna, and he was giving me some information about them. I said, " Do you know that we are talking of separating our collections here ?" and he held his hands up, and said, " If you do that with the British Museum, half its interest will be gone." He has the sympathies of an ethnologist, which may, perhaps, increase his interest in the connexion of different departments, which are thought by many to be inconsistent ; I remarked to him, " In Vienna they are separate. " Yes," he said, " but in Vienna it is an idea with scientific men, that so soon as our finances will allow of it, we shall bring everything together ; that is the hope that we entertain." I saw Professor Hochstetter again the other day, and I repeated this to him, and he repeated what he had said again, and said, " Eemember, it is our great idea ; but as yet it is only an idea." If one thing has flourished in Vienna, it has been science, and I think that his opinion is worth something. 930. Have you visited the mineralogical collec- tions at Vienna ? — Yes. 931. I believe they are extremely valuable and extensive ? — They are magnificent ; they are the only collections that I think we have reason to wish to emulate. 932. Do you consider it would be conducive to the interests of the Museum if the officers of the Museum were authorised to travel and examine certain collections, and report to the Trustees ? — I can speak from experience upon that point ; I have done it myself. The Trustees, two years ago, liberally accorded me, without hesitation, authority to lengthen my vacation, to go and see some foreign collections, and I consider, not only from having seen the collections, which is exceed- ingly important, but from having come in contact with dealers, and with scientific men, in the dif- ferent departments, and, in fact, in every way, from everything that can result from the expe- rience of travel, that journey was of the greatest use to me. From having made that one journey, I have become three times as good an officer of the Museum as I should have been without it. When I buy a mineral, I often have to refer to my reminiscences, or notes of the prices that have been given for minerals in other collections, and I made careful notes of the prices that other keepers gave, and also with regard to the methods of arrangement, and the methods of throwing light upon the specimens exhibited. In fact, the ideas necessary for keeping a collection can only be obtained by experience, and seeing other col- lections. I have always felt great gratitude to the Trustees for having given me that opportunity. 933. For the interests of the Museum, you con- sider it highly advisable that the officers of the Museum should be permitted occasionally to travel ; do you think that their expenses might be made good during the time? — Certainly I think so, occasionally. You do not wish, I presume, to have a set of peripatetic officers at the Museum, but you would, within proper regulations as to time, authorise them occasionally to visit parti- cular districts on the Continent, or to go for a tour on the Continent. I think that a matter of the gravest importance, and I think it would be of the utmost advantage to them. "With regard to paying their expenses, my own expenses were not paid ; and that is a question of another kind, ■ 0.96. which is a little involved in the amount of salary which an officer receives ; his particular position and his personal condition as to private resources, and so on. I think that would be for the trus- tees to consider when the case came before them. I think it would be hardly right to say that every officer who wished to travel, should travel at the expense of the Museum ; if the Trustees found that the public sympathised with the move- ment, they would feel authorised, and they should be authorised, to encourage it, not only by grant- ing leave, but in certain cases by giving pecu- niary assistance. 934. I presume that great opportunities would thereby be given to the keepers of the depart- ments to ascertain what collections were likely to come into the market, on private contract? — Quite so ; and not only that, but I may mention that the Trustees empowered me to spend 150 1., and I think I spent 140 /. ; but I purchased minerals, which I obtained at a much cheaper rate than if they had been sent to England. I picked them up here and there, and they are exceedingly valuable ones. 935. In regulating your estimates for the re- quirements of your department, do you take the average of preceding years, or do you consider that you are likely to require a particular amount , in consequence of particular collections which are likely to come into the market? — The esti- mates which I have made have been made on this principle for purchases. Previously to my being appointed keeper, the mineralogical collec- tion had fallen a good deal into arrear, not from any fault on the part of anybody, but from the fact that a certain sum had been annually ex- pended on geology, and for many years my very worthy and hard-working predecessor, Mr. Konig had spent a great deal on the mineral collec tion ; and after his death, his successor spent a good deal on the palasontological collection ; and it was perfectly right that that should be so. When I was appointed keeper, I found the mine- ralogical collection somewhat in arrear, and I asked for permission to extend the grants that had been made to that department, and gra- dually they were raised. I had 500 I. a year at first, and afterwards I had 800 /., and I hope for two or three years to come to have that increased amount, until I have brought up the collection to the position that I think we should place it in before bringing the annual estimate back to the original sum. Then, as regards the probability or accident of specific collections coming into the market, I generally have notice of them. In the one case I have mentioned, Mr. Greg's collection, I had permission from the Trustees to go and see it; I estimated its value, as an addition to our collection, and I asked for the sum to purchase it to be included in the next year's grant, and that has been included in this year's grant as a specific vote ; but in other respects my grant has been that which I have asked for for the last two or three years, 800 I. a year. 936. How much of the annual grant is the keeper of a department allowed to expend on his own responsibility ? — He is allowed in a month to spend a certain sum ; I believe it is under 10 I. ; in fact the smallness of the sum is rather an incon- venience ; indeed, almost the only inconvenience that I have to complain of is, the difficulty and the time that is spent in getting a purchase effected ; one has to send in, say, for instance, once in a month at one part of the year, or once in a K 3 fortnight N. Masltelyntj Esq. 19 June i860. 78 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE N. Mashelyne, Esq. 19 June i860. fortnight at another, a recommendation, and then, at a subsequent meeting, or between the meetings, one hears that the purchase has been accepted ; and at a future meeting again, the bill has to go to be authorised and signed, and there is an in inconvenience in that, because very often foreigners who are in London for a short time, and who bring over minerals, want to go out of London, and per- haps the whole profit upon the minerals would be consumed in waiting for a fortnight or a month. Sometimes I have advanced the money out of my own pocket, rather than lose the minerals, which Otherwise would be carried away : that, I think, is an inconvenience that might very easily be remedied. 937. If a large collection is offered, which the Trustees have no means of inspecting, how is their judgment formed ; is it from the report of their officers in the department for which the purchase is intended ? — I apprehend so ; I only speak of my own department ; all that has hitherto been so. I have not made a recommendation for a purchase which has not been accepted, nor has a purchase been made without my recommenda- tion. 938. Therefore, if the Trustees are more or less dependent upon the judgment of the keeper of the department in such larger matters, I pre- sume you consider they might place more re- liance upon his judgment in smaller purchases, and give him more latitude? — I think so. I feel that I should be a much more useful officer •if I had further latitude given to me in these matters. I think that the position of a keeper is one of such responsibility, that it ought at the same time to be one of corresponding dig- nity. I think to have to refer, on every occasion, for a sum above 10 1, to the Trustees, through the Principal Librarian, and through the superin- tendent of the department, is a long and tedious process, which is inconvenient, and also repre- senting the keeper in the light of a person who is not trusted. In point of fact, I believe the Trus- tees have absolute confidence in their keepers, and that they have had no reason to regret it. 939. Should an opportunity occur of acquiring some valuable objects during the summer vaca- tion, might not that opportunity be lost by reason of the keeper being obliged to wait for a meeting of the Trustees ? — I think it might ; at the same time, I believe the Principal Librarian has a lati- tude in that matter ; and provided the sum were not a large one (I believe about 50 /.), I have no doubt that he would be always ready to assist in such a matter, and would make use of his power, and keep one from losing the opportunity ; but it is a difficulty. 940. Do the keepers hold themselves respon- sible for any other expenses besides the purchases ? — No, I should say they do not ; I think it is a pity that they do not. • I think it is a pity that they know nothing of the cost of anything that comes into the department, except the minerals, or specimens which they buy. 941. In the transaction of your business, are you of opinion that, if the keeper of a department was present when the business of that department was being transacted before the Trustees, the business of the department would be transacted more speedily, and more efficiently than by re- Sorts ? — We are in a different position in our epar'tment from that in which the others are. We have a superintendent of natural history, Professor Owen; he superintends the whole of the three departments, and, of course, if he repre- sented us at the Council Board, we should, I am sure, be satisfied ; but, at present, I think it is a pity that things should be as they are. If I made a report for the Trustees, that report first has to pass through Professor Owen ; he may adopt or, condemn it as he likes. It must then go before the Principal Librarian, who might differ from it, and might not even bring it before the Trustees, , I believe, if he chose, although I am sure that he would ; but he may make any observations upon it that he pleases, and there would be no opportu- nity for the keeper to meet the objections, or to state his opinion. I think it is advisable that the keepers should, at any rate, have some means of urging a point, if they have a point to make, without its being possible that that point should be smothered between them and the Trustees; of course, there is a complication of machinery where there are two hands through which every report has to pass. 942. Is the keeper of a department generally consulted before plans are made for building in his department, or directions given as to the ar- rangement of the collections with which he is charged? — In my own department I have had, perhaps, no occasion to be ; I am not able to an- swer that question ; I have never been consulted myself; for there have been no alterations made since I have been there of any importance. 943. Have you any suggestion to make as to any other mode of administration than that which exists at present, in order to secure the largest interest in each department, on the part of the administrative body ? — I consider that the admi- nistration is a much more important matter than that of removal ; if, by possibility, we could get direct administration it would be a more impor- tant thing even than that to which I attach such high importance, namely, remaining where we are. I think the fact of your having a man to admi- nister the special affairs of a department, or series of departments, who is interested (I do not say that anyone in the Museum has not an interest), but I mean who has a peculiar interest in the spe- cific objects of such departments, is a matter of grave importance; and I cannot conceive but that the Museum would stand in a different position, as to all the relations of its departments to the public, as to their improvement, as to the election of their officers, and many other things, if a direct administration could be substituted for the indi- rect and more complex one which we have now. I should recommend a separation of the Museum into three great divisions, each with its superin- tendent and each with its keepers ; , the superin- tendent of each division should administrate and be responsible for everything that was done in that division, responsible to the Trustees, the Trustees becoming a Board of visitors, and work- ing in sections, as they work now. Each section would have its work to do with a division, and, possess a common action with the other sections of the Trustees, in their general meetings, which might be held twice a year ; the others six or eight times a year, under the presidency or chairman- ship of a high administrative officer. That is a method which, it appears to me, would be most direct and advantageous, as you would have each department represented by its own superintendent, and the Committee of Trustees would be in more immediate contact with the superintendent and the keepers; and I think, besides, it would be conducted in that way without the enormous ma- chinery SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 79 chinery of the secretary's office. The expense might appear, at first sight, to be greater, but I believe it would be less, for you would not have the same extent of secretarial work to be done. 944. You would prefer to have the Trustees more as a consultative body than as an admini- nistrative body ? — Certainly. 945. And that they should assume more the functions of visitors ? — Yes. 946. Have you read the Report of the Com- missioners of 1850, on" the British Museum? — Yes, and I have read some of the evidence. 947. Upon the subject of lectures, would it, in your opinion, be advisable to institute lectures in connexion with the British Museum? — In the British Museum, I think certainly not. 948. Do you think that lecturing would be in- consistent with the duties of a keeper ? — I do not think it would be inconsistent, per se, with the duties of a keeper ; but I think if a keeper was to be elected because he was a good lecturer, or, if at his election any thought of lecturing power was to be taken into consideration, you would be likely to lose some of the best men that you could have as keepers. I know at the present time that some of the leading men in the different de- partments of science, some of the very best would be lecturers, and if' a leading man can lecture, he is the best lecturer ; but, on the other hand, there are certainly leading men in London of the high- est eminence, whom I do not think you would select for the brilliancy of their lecturing ; and if you had anything but first-rate lecturers in the British Museum, you would be allowing a great national institution to occupy a position before the public that I think you should save it from doing. 949. I presume that you might find, many per- sons possessing qualifications which would make them excellent keepers, but who might not be very interesting lecturers ? — Precisely so ; and the greatest misfortune would be, if a man was elected as keeper because he was a popular lec- turer. I can , conceive no such catastrophe as that. 950. Is it your opinion that it would be com- patible with the duties of a keeper, and that he could pay a proper attention to his department, if his time were occupied in preparing lectures ? — I think that if the Trustees gave facilities to those of their keepers who had the gift of lecturing, it would be a very desirable thing indeed ; not only to allow, but to encourage them to a certain de- gree, to lecture in convenient places when the opportunity presented itself. There are many in London; and there are many opportunities which might offer themselves to an assistant or a keeper, for giving courses of lectures, which might make a small inroad in his time; but I think the Trustees would be by no means going beyond their duty if they allowed those keepers or assistants to avail themselves of those oppor- tunities, for they-would be illuminating the public mind on a particular subject, and drawing their attention to the collections in the Museum, which would then become highly illustrative of those lectures. I believe it is a great mistake to sup- pose that in minerals it is necessary to have out all your specimens and exhibit them on the table, and take them away from the cases to the lecture room. I know that in the mineral rooms, there are many specimens beautifully illustrative of the science ; in regard to which I should strongly ob- ject to their being removed from the cases for such 0.96. a purpose, but which still, if left where they are, N. would illustrate the lectures. Maskelyne, 951. Would you approve of a theatre being Esq. erected? — Not in the Museum; but there are ~~~ other placds, such as the Royal Institution, or the '^ofi 6 University of London, or King's College. I am ' Professor of Mineralogy at Oxford, and, with regard to my lectures at Oxford, I have hitherto managed them so as to interfere as little as posr sible with my work at the Museum ; but those lectures are a good thing for me, because they keep my mind up to the advanced ideas of my science. I am now lecturing on one of the highest subjects in my science, and I am bound to keep up these subjects, and I consider that these lec- tures do me more good as a keeper and mineralo- gist than the loss of all the time that I give to them, although taken from the Museum, would do the collection under me harm. 952. Mr. Monckton Milnes.~\ I understood you to say that you attached very great importance to the question of the administration of the British Museum ? — I do. 953. Do you not think* that there would be much greater facility in bringing about the object which you desire, supposing that iustead of being, as you are, a fragment of that great institution, you were an officer forming part of a large and separate institution, especially devoted to natural history ? — I consider that I should still be a frag- ment, although perhaps a larger fragment ; I am now an officer, so that I do not know that I should change my position ; it would perhaps be one of more apparent importance ; I should be larger in proportion to what was around me ; but, as far as my own dignity was concerned, I cannot conceive myself higher than as being one of a college of men such as our keepers will be, in the great col- lection of collections, which our British Museum is, and will be still more ; therefore, I am per- fectly satisfied by being a fragment in that great whole, although I can conceive the other position would be one which might please one's vanity more a good deal. 954. Have you any reason to think that such an establishment as that at Kew, under the care of Sir "William Hooker, has in itself been very advantageous to botanical science ? — In the highest degree ; Kew, both in respect to its method of administration, and in respect to the results achieved, I look upon as being a complete success ; if it was possible to have Kew round the British Museum, and the British Museum not to lose its locality as to London,«4n its being nearly the centre of gravity of the population of London, I think both would rise, ' and each would become greater. 955. Have not the gardens at Kew, notwith- standing that they are a considerable distance from London, been an object of great interest and great convenience to the public ? — I think so, to the public who can go in carriages, and even to the labouring public, who can go on great holidays ; I look upon Kew, however, not only as a place of scientific resort, but also as a place to which it is a great recreation to go to enjoy gardens of that kind in the open air, surrounded by everything that is beautiful, the various forms of the vege- table world flourishing around you in the highest perfection ; that alone is a vast attraction, and is not to be put on the same footing with a collec- tion of dried plants, or a collection of minerals, or a collection of antiquities such as are found in the Museum. K 4 956. Do 8o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE -2V- 956. Do you not think, that a connexion of the Maskelync, d ea( i f orms f natural history with the living ^ s 1- forms, such as it has been proposed to carry out at ~~~ Kensington, that being so much nearer than Kew, 19 June an( j yer y muc j 1 more accessible to the British 1 public by means of cheap conveyances, and being really accessible to. the whole of London, would be an advantage ? — I think, in proportion as Ken- sington is nearer to the centre of London, so would the question of distance be in that propor- tion removed, as a difficulty; but, on the other hand, I must demur to the idea that Kensington is so near as to be at all approximately convenient for people who have only one or two hour's a day, perhaps not so much, to give to the examination of a collection, and which they can give now to the British Museum, perhaps being a distance of not more than a quarter of an hour's walk from their work. I can conceive a system of communications existing in London by underground railways, by which Kensington or Kew might be brought within the reach of every one ; but that has not yet been realised, and when it is, I believe that while the population round Kensington can never be largely increased, with the large area of the parks hemming it in, there can be no doubt that the certain increase in the value of ground there will be as great a bar to extensions in that neigh- bourhood as it is now in Bloomsbury, and even more. 957. When you speak of persons who have only an hour or two to spare, do you mean men of scientific research, or other persons? — It is a very difficult thing to define those persons ; a man of science especially is a particular person ; a real scientific man, I believe, is one who devotes his best time to science, and that is a sort of person whom you can hardly consult the convenience of as to locality ; but there is a man who is, as it were, on the border land of scientific men, and who is at the same time not a scientific man ; those to whom the British Museum is of the most use are of that class ; they are those to whom the collections are more instructive than to any other class ; take a man who is a man of business, whose heart is in his work, and his work is in the middle of London ; to go to Kew is only a walk for him in the evening, or the afternoon, or on a holiday ; but it does not lie in his daily path ; he cannot turn in for half an hour or an hour as he does continually now at the British Museum, and the number of such persons who come into that Museum is enor- mous. 958. Do you frequently recognise the same faces? — I can hardly say that I frequently do that, nor can I say that the same faces do not come, but I do not recognise them. 959. If those persons came for the purpose of ■continuous study would you not be able to recog- nise them ? — I of course do not mean either regu- lar students, or the many persons who come to consult me; these form a sort of substratum of scientific men. 960. Do you think that to that class of men an additional 20 minutes, or half an hour, or three- quarters of an hour, and the twopenny omnibus fare, would make any important difference? — I cer- tainly think so ; I do not think it would be a question of a quarter of an hour, or twenty minutes, but the hour or two that it would involve would make a great difference. I was walking with a friend of mine, who is employed in a high office in the Board of Trade, a short time ago, and he said, " I often come out early in the morning, because I like to go into the National Gallery for three-quarters of an hour before I begin my work, and it is so convenient, it lies in my path, and I go in and enjoy the pictures, and go on to my work." Now, that gentleman I look upon as the type of a very large number of men who enter the walls of the British Museum, and I believe that there are a great number who, going from the City to the west end of London, find it a conve- nient opportunity and an advantage to be able just to look in, to examine or compare some spe- cimens which they have been interested in, or perhaps to ask a question of the officers, or to study what are exhibited of any particular series of specimens ; I am certain that that is a class which is much larger than one would imagine. 961. You are of course acquainted with the results of the formation of the Museum of Practical Geology in Jermyn-street ? — Yes. 962. Has not that establishment been of con- siderable use to science ? — I should think of very considerable use. I do not know how far it has been of use as a place for sight-seeing ; I mean to the people who go to look at the things which are so admirably exhibited there ; but most certainly, with regard to its fruits to science, it has been of immense advantage, because it has been a col- lege of men collected together by a master mind, and they have done their work in common, and with admirable results. 963. Do you think that the circumstance of that being a detached institution, and not con- nected with any other large establishment, has been any disadvantage to it? — I do not consider that it stands on the same footing with the collec- tions exhibited in the British Museum ; it is not to the same degree or in the same sense an exhi- bited collection. It is not from that point of view that I look at it, as standing in a position of such great utility; but it is on account of the work that has been done in it, and the way in which men have been sent out to all parts of the country to collect specimens, which they have brought home, and arranged them, and organised them, and given them to the world partly in an educational, partly in a more scientific form. It is a pattern of a national institution, having its centre in London, and having its ramifications over the whole country ; and I think that science has to be grate- ful to Sir Henry Delabeche, for having started the Museum, much more than for its exhibition. I think that in that respect it has stood alone, and that that circumstance has done it no harm. 964. Might not those advantages all be enjoyed by the establishment of a college of men, interested in natural history, at some other place, say at Kensington ?— It would be a college of men, and a college, I hope, of illustrious men ; but it would be a college of naturalists, and whereas I say the officers of the Museum should be a college repre- senting the whole intelligence of the nation, at any given time, I should estimate its importance, and much of its value in its reaction on that intelli- gence, from that point of view. 965. Can you point out any practical advan- tages which result from you and Mr. Carpenter and Sir Frederick Madden forming parts of one great establishment ?— I can illustrate the matter by facts in respect to my being in that Museum with Mr. Carpenter, and with Sir Frederick Madden, and Mr. Hawkins; I was a little while ago engaged upon a question which involved the weight of a certain object of mineralogical inte- rest of some 300 or 400 years of antiquity, and it was SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 8l was a great point to go into the matter, and to ascertain the exact relative value of weights at a certain period of Indian history, and I was, with- out any waste of my own time, enabled to go into the department of antiquities and get at facts there, from coins, and even to weigh coins ; I was able to get at facts of the utmost importance, and in that manner, I obtained a result which I con- ceive to have been a valuable one ; but Mr. Car- penter has had, in the same way, occasion to ask for my assistance ; accidents have happened to his prints, and things of that kind, and, although to a very small degree, I have been of use to him ; and, referring to Sir Frederick Madden, he, the other day, or at least one of his assistants, appealed to me upon a question that has been a good deal be- fore the world, a forgery, upon which I brought to bear the ordinary appliances of a scientific man, and I was enabled to throw light upon it; I would answer your question by saying, that although it is from a higher point of view that I estimate the privileges and the advantages accruing to men of such different pursuits being so brought into a sort of college, and although not in any of the respects that I instanced, except one, has any very great vital result accrued from our collo- cation, yet it was convenient, to say the least of it, 966. Mr. Lowe.'] What is your notion of the end and object of the British Museum ? — I con- ceive it to be like many other things in this coun- try ; it has grown up by a sort of accident, and it has so come to pass that in it there exists that which exists in no other nation. Every nation has sought to collect things that were rare and curious, at first ; and afterwards, as specimens have gathered round these first collections, they have endeavoured to complete them ; thus you have in Paris and in Vienna, national collections of specific and distinct classes of things ; in England, these things, by a happy accident, are united into one great whole ; and I say that from its fortunately being a whole, the Museum does represent before the world, before the student, before the common labouring man, in short it re- presents to anyone, the sum of the intelligence of the country ; it is an external representation of that upon which the intelligence of the country has been energising in all the different abstract departments of knowledge ; and that I think is a very high path for a national institution such as the British Museum to pursue, 967. Do you consider it now to be complete ; I do not mean each collection, but that there is no collection that ought to be added to it ? — To say that, would be to say, that I had gone with this in view over the whole range of human knowledge ; yet I think I can find something corresponding to each department of true knowledge in the Bri- tish Museum; I do not pretend to give an abso- lute opinion upon that point; it is the greatest col- lection that has ever been made as the collection of collections ; and I believe in time, by judicious development, it will become still more completely than it is, the great collection of unrivalled' col- lections. Every ten years will make this repre- sentation of human knowledge more Complete ; and I am satisfied that as time goes on, and men's minds are by education opened to sympathy with a larger range of study, and the student himself has his mind thus concentrated on one or two en- grossing subjects, Englishmen will feel that this idea has a far greater significance than, at pre- sent, scientific or literary men may see in it. 968. I presume you. contemplate not merely 0.96. filling up the present collections, but the addition of new collections ? — Certainly ; I do not know what new collections ought to be added, but, if there are such, I should say add them. 969. Would you not think that a collection of national pictures ought to be there ? — I certainly should be very glad to see it there ; unfortunately it has been separated, but still we have art re- presented in another form ; we have the works of those great masters represented by their own pencil, and their own graving tools, but in a less striking manner ; just as Kew has, upon a large scale, what we have in our dried botanical department, so the department of Mr. Carpenter represents in a certain sense art and the develop- ment of art of which the National Gallery is only the more magnificent exposition. 970. I presume, in the same way, according to your notion, a complete collection of architectural specimens should be added ? — I do not see why it should; you may enlarge the scope of the Mu- seum to an absurd degree, and of course there must be a limit placed to the objects which should be embraced by it ; architecture is a fine and useful art, but at the same time, I would not go beyond exhibiting such representations of it as you really have already in the architecture of Assyria, Egypt and Greece ; the spirit of archi- tecture of those countries is certainly represented to a very considerable degree by the ornamental attributes of it, which we possess in the Museum. 971. But why should we stop there? — Solely because I think it is impossible to go further ; you must have a limit. 972. Why ? — Because the want of space would prevent the possibility of going further ; I per- ceive the end to which your questions would lead me ; but at the same time I do not think that the idea is to be ridden so far as to render it incon- sistent with what is feasible and judicious. 973. Is it not rather a test of the idea that it should bear to be pushed to its full limit? — You must define your idea first. I think that my de- finition of my idea is, that the Museum should re- present the actual intelligence of the nation, the knowledge of things that have been, and a know- ledge of the things that are, around us, both of nature and of art ; certainly that is our scope. 974. Does not the British Museum omit to take note of that, upon which the intelligence of the nation is, perhaps, more employed than upon any- thing else, that is the development of machinery ? — No, I think not. You have in the library a complete history, for example, of the patents. You have every new idea in the inventive arts expressed in pointed description, or delineated in engravings in those records of patents. 975. But I want to get at the principle that lies at the bottom of this ; is the principle this : that everything that is worth knowing ought to be in close juxtaposition with everything else that is worth knowing ? — Everything that can be syste- matised ought to be represented in the British Museum; I do not say that there should be a complete exhibition of everything, or you must have a complete model of the Victoria Tower, and of every other tower in Christendom ; but, on the other hand, you ought to find in the British Museum everything out of which you can build up the history of art in other days, and whatever is to be obtained from the actual pcS« session of a certain number of specimens of that art. 976. Do you think that the space being, after L all, N. Maskelyne, Esq. 19 June i860. 82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE M ; \ nil, limited to the space at present occupied by all Estf e ' these collections, in juxtaposition with each other, ' '" it has no tendency to cramp their expansion? — 19 June Certainly ; I think it has a tendency to cramp it;- 1 860. hut I think it is a question to be balanced in the statesman's mind between an enormous develop- ment or an exhibition of collections on an enor- mous scale in different parts of London, for that is what it comes to, or an exhibition on a suffi- ciently large scale of a great number of objects in such a way as to make a sort of microcosm of it. 977. If Professor Owen could get his five acres and a half all to himself elsewhere, he would be more sure to hold his own, than if those five acres and a half were given to him at the British Mu- seum, would he not ? — I do not know why ; be- cause the British Museum stands in a part of London in which you may indefinitely extend your possession of space. I believe that if Pro- fessor Owen gets his five acres and a half or 11 acres at Kensington, in 40 years' time, if he wants to expand in the same ratio, you will have to buy a vast deal more land then than you would have to buy if you carried out rather a smaller idea at the British Museum, and then land will be dearer everywhere, and, I doubt not, especially more dear at Kensington than at Bloomsbury. 978. With regard to administration, do you think that administration is easier and more accu- rate where you have a vast number of departments crowded together in one space, under one head, or where they are divided ? — Division is precisely the thing that I recommend ; I am desirous that there shall be three great divisions ; one would be the bibliographical division, including the library, the manuscripts and the art; I mean by that drawings and prints. Then I would have the col- lections of antiquities, involving what was archae- ological and classical as another division, and the natural history as another. 979. Do you think that there should be any head over this triumvirate, any administrative head ? — I propose for that that the trustees should become a visiting body ; and that an administra- tive person should be at the head of the trustees, and should be their chairman. I conceive that in that manner there should be some one responsible to the Government, who would look after the whole of the general arrangements of the Museum; and a superintendent of each division would be responsible, through him, for the conduct of the departments of his division, and the expenses con- nected with those departments. 980. You do not contemplate a scientific head, but an administrative head ? — Yes, I contemplate a person with special qualifications for each divi- sion; therefore a scientific head for the natural history departments. :981. But a man who is to rule the three de- partments ? — I do not know why he should be less one than another. If you had a person who was a naturalist, he would not be less competent to be a general administrator than a great scholar would be to look after the natural history depart- ment, or a great antiquarian to look after both. But I do not see why the administrator in chief should have any such specialty. 982. Would not this evil happen, that the head would be apt to favour that one of the three divi- sions which was his own particular study ? — I think he should not be placed there, if he were a person of that character. 983. Would there not be a risk of that? — I think you can hardly suppose a position in the country in which there would not be a risk^ ot something at least as injurious to administration as that. 984. Must not the head be necessarily inferior in some branches to the head of either of those three departments? — I apprehend that his supe^ riority or inferiority in the details of any one subject would be a matter of perfect indifference, as the person who would be responsible to him for all' the details would be the superintendent of that division and the keepers of its department; and he would be freed from all questions as to those details ; he would deal only with the question of administration as to the general funds, the ser- vants, the appointments, and things of that kind. 985. He would have nothing to do with science ? —No. 986. Should he be a permanent officer ? — I have not gone into the details of that question. 987. Mr. Puller.'] Should he be a resident officer ? — I do not see why he should be ; I think he should be an officer to be appointed by the Government. 988. If he were chairman of the trustees, do you contemplate the possibility of his being a member of the Government ? — I think the proba- bility is, that he would be a Member of the House of Commons, or an Under Secretary. 1 989. Mr. Lowe. J Have you considered the great dignity and eminence of the trustees; do you think that an Under Secretary would be a person of sufficient weight ? — It depends upon who the chairman of the trustees would be; it depends upon the person ; but I think these are questions that I should not go further into. 990. He would exercise a power which you do not think the trustees would better exercise? — Yes. 991. And yet he would be their chairman? — Yes, or he might be a vice-chairman, represent- ing a more exalted personage; but in fact, as visitors, the trustees would be no more than asses- sors, as it were. 992. You stated a short time back that the ground on which some of the mineralogical speci- mens stood would be worth more than the speci- mens themselves? — Yes, if exhibition was car- •ried on, in the case of minerals to a very large extent ; after you had exhibited those minerals, in themselves of great value, after you had exhi- bited those which illustrated the science suffi- ciently, there would be a large proportion which, if exposed, and spread out in table cases, would not be worth the ground -they stood on. 993. You do not recognize that one great ob- ject of the Museum is that it should be complete ? — I do not apprehend that we should exhibit those specimens which may be put into drawers ; there would be want of space. 994. In order to make it complete, you must admit, for example, a vast number of worthless books ? — But if you took a vertical measure of the library, the books that stood on a cubic foot of ground,_ I apprehend, would be worth a great many times the value of the ground they stood upon. 995. Mr. Puller.] Do you consider a separate entrance a desirable thing as to the natural history collections ?— I should say that, if the division of the Museum in the manner I contemplate, was carried out, it would be desirable that there should be three distinct entrances. 996. But suppose that not to be done ?— Then as S&LECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 83 as long as we are under one administration we should form one body. 997. Is it not the case at present, that all per- sons who visit the natural history collections have to pass through the gallery of antiquities ? — No ; you can go up the staircase at once into the zoological galleries ; but then, probably, you would return through some other department, either the antiquities, or the King's library. 998. Mr. Stirlii>g.~\ "What number of books have you attached to your department for the use of it? — At present it is a small number; previous to my appointment the mineralogy, and the geo- logy or the palaeontology, were the same depart- ment, and then a considerable number of books were purchased to meet the requirements of that department, and on my coming there, those books were divided by Mr. Waterhouse and me ; those which related to his department he took, and I took the others. When I begin to extend it, which I hope to do, I believe ample means will be afforded for the purpose ; I use the library very much. 999. In the case of removal, how would you be able to use the library? — Then I suppose that there would be a library attached to the new position. 1000. What number of books should you say would be necessary to afford you a sufficient library to carry on your labours ? — It is a difficult question to answer; but supposing there was a new library, there would be a large number of books common to many departments. For in- stance, the scientific journals, which are necessary, and which we want most, would do for every de- partment ; there ought to be quite a complete se- ries of all those, and they would be a common library ; it is those books that I use most now. I know where they are, and I can refer to any particular memoir that 1 want to see ; we should want to have them, and a new purchase, I sup- pose, would have to be made of all those books. 1001. At how many volumes should you esti- mate the number that would be absolutely re- quired for your own department? — Really, I could hardly give an approximate opinion. I have always been in this position ; at Oxford, I have always had the Bodleian, or the Ashmolean, or the Radcliffe libraries to refer to, as I, here, have the British Museum library, and I have never thought of that question ; I should think a very few thou- sand volumes, indeed, in mineralogy. I should think perhaps six or eight thousand volumes would contain the whole. 1002. Including those that would be common to the other departments ? — Yes, quite so. 1003. Probably, something like half that num- ber would be quite sufficient for you ? — The lite- rature of mineralogy is very small, but is spread over a vast number of volumes : it consists of closely written memoirs, chiefly made up of ma- thematical details or chemical analyses, or techni- cal but brief descriptions. These form the greatest part of it, and they are to be sought in the scien- tific journals of many languages. N., ■ Matkelync, Esq. John Gould, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 1004. Chairman^ Yotj are the author, I think, of several works on ornithology ? — I am. 1005. And also on mammalogy ? — One work on mammalia. 1006. Yon have devoted a great deal of your time to the study of ornithology ? — All my life. 1007. I believe you signed a memorial in 1858 to the Treasury, against the removal of the na- tural history collections from the British Museum ? —I did. 1008. Are you of the same opinion now, as you were when you signed that memorial ? — I have never altered my opinion. 1009. Have you any reason to believe that the natural history collections in the British Museum are very attractive to the great mass of the popu- lation of London ? — I think they are particularly attractive. 1010. The ornithological collections, I believe, in particular ? — Yes. 1011. Do you attach great value to the central situation in which the British Museum is placed ? —Yes. 1012. As far as the value of the natural his- tory collections are concerned ? — Yes ; I have thought of the subject ever since I signed that memorial ; and I am still of opinion that it should be where the library is, in the centre of London. 1013. I believe that the central position of the British Museum affords considerable facilities to persons who come up to London by excursion ' trains to pay a visit to the metropolis, and to visit, amongst other things, the natural history collec- tions in the British Museum ; and that the removal of those collections to a distant locality would dimi- nish these visits? — I can speak from experience, as I live in Great Russell-street, and I have been very much struck on Whit Monday and other holidays, 0.96. by the great number of country people who, ap- parently, have come up by railways for the pur- pose of visiting the British Museum ; and I really think that, if it were at Kensington, there would not be that facility, and it would not be visited by such numbers of people as I saw passing my own windows on those days. 1014. Are you of opinion that the public at large would be in favour of retaining the natural history collections where they are ? — Yes. 1015. Is the same opinion shared in by scientific men, as far as your observation goes ? — Decidedly ; I have heard but one or two who have expressed a different opinion. 1016. With regard to the exhibition, take, for instance, the department of birds : do you consi- der it would be advisable, with reference to the amusement of general spectators, to exhibit every species, and variety of species, of every kind of bird possessed by the' British Museum, or do you think that a good arrangement of what I may call the typical forms would be more calculated to im- press distinctions upon their minds and to amuse and instruct them ? — I think that a well-arranged typical collection, fully illustrated, from the egg and the young bird upwards, would be most in- structive, as you could make it more complete ; for instance, of the great family of corvidas, or crows ; there are many species, and they are extremely similar ; the crows of North America, of which there are two species, are very similar to those in Europe, and I think that for the great mass of the public there would be little use in mounting and exhibiting in glass cases all the species of crows* At the same time all the species should be rigidly preserved in a national collection, but they should be preserved in a different manner ; they should be preserved in drawers, where they would L 2 be J. Govld, Esq. 84 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J. Gould b e better kept, and where the scientific man could Esq. ' always have access to them, or, if necessary, the public at large. I believe the public would not 19 June have that desire, but a typical collection is that i860. which, I think, we should strive to put before them, and those in that collection should be mounted and set before them in the best manner ; there are a few instances of this kind in the British Museum, and I would venture to say that the birds of paradise, which are mounted in cases, are more attractive than most portions of the col- lection. It is quite necessary, in arranging a typical collection, that the egg and the youthful bird, and the great changes which birds undergo, and which have really not been attended to suffi- ciently, should be exhibited. In speaking of the great family of corvidas, I have said I would not exhibit all the crows ; it must be understood, how- ever, that I would exhibit a crow, a rook, a jack- daw, and a raven, as each of these birds has some peculiarity in its structure and habits ; and they are all generically distinct ; there are many jack- daws in the world, and there are many crows ; there are two or three species of rooks, and, there- fore, these forms, although by Linnasus they were all grouped in one great genus, constitute a family, and each of them should be represented ; but I would not represent all the rooks in the world, nor all the crows, nor all the daws ; but what I have described is the kind of collection that L think it would be best to set before the public. 1017. Then, for the use of the scientific man, I presume you would have a collection in drawers, of every species, which you did not exhibit ? — Yes, of every species, decidedly ; and the types of all species should be rigidly preserved. 1018. Speaking as a scientific man, would you prefer, for the prosecution of your studies, to have a specimen in a drawer, that you might handle and examine, or would you prefer to look at a specimen set up in a glass case ? — Decidedly, I should prefer the one in a drawer. 1019. What is your own practice? — My own practice is to keep them in drawers. 1020. Mr. Puller.'] Not stuffed?— No; it is necessary to put a fine stuffed collection before the public, but not to stuff every species. I would, if possible, mount one of every form, that is, of every genus, 1021. Chairman.] Is it the case, that constant ex- posure to light affects the vivid colours of birds, and that the colours become fainter by being exposed for a considerable time to light? — Most decidedly; for example, I may refer to the great collection of kangaroos which I formed in Australia; in their native country they are very dissimilar, that is, they have colours very unlike each other. I am sorry to say that this collection, which was depo- sited in the British Museum, now presents a very different appearance, being all nearly alike, a great change having taken place in their colour- ing, which may be said to have nearly disap- peared; a great change also takes place in the plumage of birds if long exposed to light, a change which does not take place in drawers, 1022. You keep a case over all your humming birds, do you not ? — I always cover them. 1023. Then I presume, in case you exhibited all your birds, if you wanted to give to the public a real idea of their colours and their plumage, you would have to replace a great portion of your specimens within a very short period of time ? — Certainly, if they were exposed to light. 1024. That would involve the necessity, in order to give the public a true notion of the plumage of those birds, of re-purchasing your ornithological collection in a few years? — Yes, if exposed to a powerful light; but there are birds which do not suffer in this way, for instance, the family of cor- vidae ; these black birds will be black for ever. 1025. Still the alteration that would take place in the colours would involve the necessity of re- purchasing your specimens, if you desired to give a correct representation of what the bird was ? — If you ask me, as a practical man, what I would do with the ornithological collection in the British Museum, I should say, in a few words, I would illustrate every genus, by giving the egg and the young bird, and all its subsequent changes; then I would have a second collection, in drawers, for the use of the scientific public ; typical speci- mens which might happen to be in bad condition, as is frequently the case, 1 would not put before the public, who might go away and say, " How horridly the specimens are mounted in the British Museum." This is not fair to the taxidermist, who often has to do the best he can with a bad specimen, collected perhaps in the middle of Aus- tralia, and sent home mildewed, with the legs or toes absent ; he does his best, and it is put into cases in the British Museum ; and very fre- quently those specimens cause great dissensions among the public, and they go away without know- ing that those species are of great value, and great interest, and they think that they are very badly mounted. I would certainly have such examples kept in drawers. 1026. As far as your knowledge goes, do you contemplate that very great additions to the birds are likely to be made from regions hitherto un- explored ? — There are certain parts of the world that would give us new species, New Guinea, the interior of China, the eastern ports of Peru, and Bolivia : these are unexplored countries. 1027. Are these new species likely to come within a short period of time ? — I think not. 1028. You are, I presume, well acquainted with the ornithological gallery in the British Mu- seum ? — I am. 1029. Do you think that any very considerable addition to the present space is required in order to render the ornithological collections of the Bri- tish Museum instructively exhibited? — Instruc- tively I do not; 1 think that all the forms may be exhibited in that gallery, 1030. Do you think they may be properly ex- hibited ? — Yes, it is a large space, and I think that all the forms might be exhibited there ; but I do not think that half the species could be con- tained in that gallery if they were all mounted. 1031. According to the mode of exhibition that you would suggest, do you think there is suffi- cient space in the ornithological gallery at the present moment? — I think there is; there are many duplicates there now which I would not have ; I think that the space is ample for a typical collection. 1032. Mr. Puller.] Do you mean duplicates exhibited?— Yes, duplicates that are now exhi- bited. _ 1033. Mr. Moncktan Milnes.] On what prin- ciple do you arrange your own collection of humming birds?— I have my great collection in drawers ; I have nearly 2,000 specimens in draw- er 8 ; > and I have about 200 species mounted; I shall hereafter mount my entire collection of hum- ming birds. 1034. What proportion will those that are ex- exhibited SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 85 hibited bear to those that are unstuffed?— About a quarter. 1035. Do you confine yourself to type speci- mens in your own exhibition ? — I never mount a type specimen, if it be a single one ; I keep it in a drawer. When I have sufficient specimens to form a fine group, then I mount them; but the type and single specimens I keep in drawers. 1036. For what purpose ? — A single specimen ■would not look well mounted ; it is probably a bad one ; but when I can get six or eight fine specimens, I mount them, as I can then form a group. These objects are so small, that it is is necessary to have four or five at least ; it is not like mounting an eagle. 1037. Had you not an exhibition of birds at the Zoological Gardens ? — Yes ; of humming" birds ; I have that collection still. 1038. Was it largely exhibited, and was it an object of much interest ? — Very large indeed ; 100,000 people visited it while at the Gardens. 1039. Do you think that a much larger number of people would have been to see it, supposing it had been in a more central situation, and not re- quiring a considerable walk ? — If it had been free it would ; but there was a payment required ; it ■was only visited by persons who paid to go into the Zoological Gardens. The collection was lent by me to the Zoological Society for a year, and 6 d. was charged per head for admission. 1040. Do you think that if the admission had been free, and the collection had been exhibited at Brompton, it would not have attracted a very large number of persons in the course of years ? — A great number of visitors, but not so many as if it were nearer, certainly. 1041. Do you not think that a great portion of the London sightseers combine an exhibition such as that of your humming birds, or. other interesting objects of natural history, rather with holiday enjoyment, than as a subject of casual observation 1 — Certainly ; I think the great mass of the people do ; but there is a growing taste for natural history, particularly for ornithology ; I do believe that the ornithological gallery at the British Museum is one of the most attractive ; it is the most attractive for the lower orders, if not for the higher. 1042. Do not you see some advantage in having so attractive an exhibition in a situation, which perhaps would require a little exercise in the open air, on the part of the working classes ; and so combining health with interesting enjoyment ? — Decidedly; but I think you would not get so many people to Brompton as to the British Museum. 1043. But a very large number ? — Certainly. 1044. Mr. Hardy.] Did you say that you thought the specimens might be exhibited with advantage in cross cases ? — Certainly. 1045. I think you gave some instance abroad? — Yes, in Leyden. 1046. Chairman.'] Are the birds well seen in those cross cases at Leyden ? — Yes. 1047. Mr. Puller.] Do you think so many persons would visit the different collections if they were separated, and in different places, as if they were all kept at the British Museum? — I can scarcely say, 1048. Do you not think that the name of the British Museum has a certain attraction in itself ? — Certainly ; but I think there are not a great number of presents made to it. 0.96. ldfio. 1049. You think that a great part of the collec- J. Gould, tion is purchased ? — Yes. Esq. 1050. You spoke of the scientific public; how far does that description extend; do you mean 19 June only men of scientific distinction, or all persons who go to the Museum for the purpose of im- provement ? — Persons of scientific distinction, of Europe and America ; I have no hesitation in saying that they -would one and all, both of America and of the continent of Europe, prefer that the collections should be in London ; I think so from what I have heard ; I am a practical man, and I am visited by a great many scientific men who come to this country, and I know that they look upon the institution as one of the finest they have ever seen; and doubtless it is, as a whole, the finest institution of the kind in the world ; I trust you will excuse me for saying again, that, for my own part, I should not separate it. 1051. With reference to the question, whether the whole or a great part of the specimens should be exhibited, or a large part of them should be kept in drawers, there are three classes of what you call the scientific public; there is the man of scientific distinction, and the general public, who merely go to be amused, but between them there is a large number of young men who go there to improve themselves and to learn some- thing ; do you think that they would have the same facility for getting that improvement if a large portion of the specimens were shut up in drawers ? — I see no reason why they should not, if the drawers could be arranged as I have those in which I keep my own humming birds, that is, closed with glass, as an insect case is : if a scientific man desires to examine any speci- men, I merely raise this glass and show it him. 1052. Would you allow visitors to pull out those drawers themselves, or should that be done by servants of the Museum ? — I should not allow visitors generally to do so. 1053. If there were any considerable number of visitors of that class, you would require a large addition to the staff of the Museum, would you not ? — Yes. 1054. Would you place those drawers in the same room with the rest of the collection ? — Yes, they might be ; I think they ought to be. • 1055. Do you think there would be the same facility for comparison ? — I think there is greater facility when they are in drawers ; you can ex- amine species so much better by taking them in your hand and comparing one specimen with an- other, than if they are mounted. 1056. You would allow the specimens to be taken out of the drawers ?— Yes, by scientific men ; it would be very seldom that it would be required, and only then by an ornithologist; a person must have some object in doing it. 1057. You stated just now that you considered the taxidermists had no difficulty in stuffing a bird which they had never seen alive ? — They can judge, by their external form ; for instance, a penguin has its legs placed far behind, and a taxidermist must know that that bird must either stand upright, or rest on its belly ; if it be a diver, it must stand upright ; it generally lives in the water, resorting to the land only for the pur- pose of breeding, and the taxidermist either places it on its breast, or puts it upright. 1058. Does the eye preserve its colour? — No. 1059. Sir Philip Egerton.~] Do you think that any ornithologist could write a description of a bird, from merely seeing it stuffed in a glass case ? L 3 —Certainly 86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J.Gould, — Certainly not; not a good one; not a proper Esq one ; he would require to spread the wings and open the feathers. ,9 «« Un 1060- ®° y° u Relieve tk at an y ornithologist 1 could distinguish between two very nearly allied species, by merely seeing them stuffed, and set up in a glass case ? — It would be much better if he could handle them. 1061. Take for example sdme of the sylviadaa, the species of which are very similar ? — It would be necessary for him to have the skins in his hand. 1062. For scientific purposes, such as have been alluded to, it is not only advisable, but necessary that specimens should be available which could be taken out of boxes and handled ? — Decidedly ; that is my firm opinion ; and I am quite sure that it is the opinion of every zoologist. 1063. Chairman. J Presuming that you were disposed to investigate the origin of species, for instance, and that you wished to compare the difference between two varieties of pigeons, the tumbler and the pouter ; would you prefer to see those two varieties of pigeons in a case, or would you rather like to see them in your hand, put them together, and examine them ? — I think the one as well as the other. Professor Thomas Henry Huxley, called in ; and Examined. Professor 1064. Chairman.] Yotr are Professor of Na- T. H. tural History and Curator of the Paleonlological Huxley. Collection in Jermyn-street ? — Yes, Professor of Natural History, including Comparative Anatomy and Paleontology, and Curator of the Paleontolo- gical Collection. 1065. In the year 1858, you signed a memorial to the Treasury, with a view to retaining the natural history collections, as they are at present, in the British Museum ? — I signed that memorial. 1066. The object of that memorial was, in the first instance, to prevent the dispersion of the col- lections, and, in the second instance, to retain them in their present position ? — Yes. I should be glad to explain precisely the object that I had in signing that memorial ; and, in the first place, let me say that I had nothing whatever to do with the framing of that memorial. The memo- rial was placed before me to sign, or not to sign ; and the course that I took with regard to to it was such as one always does take in such matters. I did not consider my signature bound me to agree in every point of the memorial ; but I considered that there was enough in the memo- rial with which I thoroughly agreed to justify me in signing it. At the time, we understood that it was the purpose of the Government to break up and disperse the different elements of the natural history collections in the British Museum, and it was mainly with the object of preventing that dispersion" that I signed the me- morial. 1067. Do you agree in the general purport of the memorial, that, " for the unity of principle which bespeaks the unity of the creative course, it is essential that the different classes of natural > objects should be preserved in juxtaposition, under the roof of one great building " ? — Curiously enough, that happens to be the only paragraph of the document to which I objected ; I objected to that, at the time, to Sir Roderick Murchison, on the ground that I thought it was a mere piece of rhetoric. 1068. Do you agree in the statement made in this memorial, that " it is a well-known fact that by far the greater number of visitors to the Museum consists of those who frequent the halls containing the natural history collections" ? — I agreed in that statement, not upon my own know- ledge, but because the persons who vouched for the fact, and whose names were attached to that document, such, for instance, as Professor Owen and Sir Roderick Murchison, were persons who, I thought, were competent to give a sound opinion ; and I assented to their proposition, therefore, upon their testimony, in the absence of positive knowledge of my own. 1069. Do you believe it would be very incon- venient for persons who come from the densely- peopled districts of the eastern, northern, and southern parts of London, to resort to any distant locality ? — I am entirely of that opinion. 1070. Do you believe that both the convenience and the instruction of the people, and a saving of a very large sum of money to the nation, may be secured by retaining the natural history collections on their present site? — I ain'entirely of that opinion. 1071. At a subsequent period, I believe, you signed another memorial, which is supposed to be rather inconsistent with the other which you had signed ?— I not only signed a second memorial, but I had so large a share in drawing it up that I hold myself responsible for the opinions contained in it. But I am at a loss to understand in what respect, or where, the inconsistency lies between the two documents. I should state, as I have stated the . circumstances under which the first one was drawn * up, that the second memorial was prepared under a conviction, on the part of those who drew it up, that the removal of the collections from the British Museum was decided upon. "We had strong reason to think at the time that it was decided upon. When I say strong reasons, I mean that there were good private grounds for so considering. 1072. Then you consider that there is nothing whatever inconsistent between the second memo- rial to which your name is attached and the first one ?— No ; there appears to me to be no greater difference than is explicable by the difference of circumstances in each case. I may say that, at the present moment, I adhere entirely to the principles laid down in the~second memorial, with possibly one exception. _ 1073. What is that exception ?— That excep- tion is the abolition of the body of trustees, which is implied in the second memorial. Later circum- stances have led me to reconsider that point carefully, and I am much inclined to believe, as matters now stand, that it is a very important circumstance to have a body of educated and liberal gentlemen, men of the world and of stand- ing in society, interposed between men of science and men of letters on the one hand, and mere officials on the other. 1074. You are acquainted, I presume, with the zoological collections in the British Museum ?— I am well acquainted with them. 1075. Hate you made any use of them ?— .b requent and valuable use. 1076. With regard to their present distribution, and SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 87 and their mode of arrangement, have you any suggestions to make to the Committee, particu- larly with regard to the osteology ? — The question of the re-organization of the collections appears to me to be the most important question that we can raise ; 1 conceive it to be of far greater im- portance than the question of stopping, or going away ; the importance of re-organization appears to me, in fact, to be paramount. 1077. I presume you do not think that removal is necessary for the purpose of re-organization ? — Certainly not ; particularly after what I have heard during Professor Maskelyne's examination to-day. 1078. By the word re-organization, I presume you mean the adoption of a principle of arrange- ment, in the first place, and also a principle of administration 1 — Quite so ; I think that re- organization embraces those two heads. 1079. With regard to the first hea'd, the prin- ciple of arrangement, I presume your object would be that the collection should afford the maximum of instruction, of amusement, and of suggestion? — Quite so; both to men of science, and to the general public. 1080. And that it should be so arranged as to afford amusement to the general sightseer, and also facilities for study to men of science ? — Quite so. 1081. In your opinion, will a typical arrange- ment attain both those ends ? — I entertain a very strong opinion upon that point, based upon a good deal of study of the matter, and also upon prac- tical acquaintance with the arrangement of a Museum. And I am fully convinced that the majority of the leading naturalists in the king- dom share my belief, not merely that these ends can be attained by a typical arrangement, pro- perly understood, but that by such an arrange- ment only can the collection attain its utmost usefulness to all classes. 1082. Will you endeavour to exemplify your view by a reference to the ornithological collec- tion, for instance ? — I should be glad to say, by way of preface, that I think this matter of " typi- cal" arrangement has been somewhat misunder- stood. I do not take the word " typical " in its pedantical and narrow sense, nor mean to say that you should display nothing else than those specimens which exhibit or illustrate par- ticularly important scientific points. I use the word in a larger sense ; I mean by a typical arrangement the selection of such specimens as may be sufficient to illustrate any of the great points of interest, whether popular or scientific, that exist in connexion with a particular group of animals. . 1083. I presume by typical, you mean that it might be an outline of the arrangement of the animal kingdom, giving a display of the more striking divisions of form and colour? — And of structure. 1084. Calculated to strike the spectator, and attract his attention? — Exactly so. Then with respect to illustration, I 1 should be glad to make some observations, it being understood always that I speak roughly, and simply with regard to the broad outlines of the subject. Suppose that the ornithological gallery in the British Museum were given to me, as it stands^ with instructions to make the collection of birds as useful as it possibly could be, both to the man of science, and to the general public, I should leave the wall cases as they stand, and I should of course clear 0,96. out the whole of the objects which now cover the floor ; I should then run a gallery along the top of the wall cases, and I should have cases placed against the upper portion of the wall. I understand that at present the wall cases hold 2,500 species, or thereabouts, which are displayed, mounted, and set up. I am informed, "by the best authorities, that there are somewhere about 2,000 genera of birds ; that is to say, groups in which it requires the eye of a naturalist to dis- tinguish the differences, for the differences be- tween the genera of birds are in very many cases small ; so that I should say it would be a large allowance if I selected 1,500 species as types; and it must be recollected that not only would those 1,500 species give the ordinary visitor a very full idea of the varied forms of birds, but they would enable the man of science, and the advanced student, to attain a very fair knowledge of that group, if he acquainted him- self with the whole of those 1,500 forms. A man who should know those 1,500 forms, would be enabled at once to say when any bird was put before him, where its allies might be found, and what family it belonged to ; that is to say, the 1,500 typical species would serve not merely as a show, but as a sort of dictionary of ornithology. Then I should occupy the space offered by the floor with two lines of glass cases, leaving 10 feet on either side for passages in front of the wall cases, and the same in the middle. In these glass cases the whole of the skeletons of the types might be disposed in view ; and the nests might be exhibited with the eggs, either there or in the wall cases. Then I should have the whole of the space above the wall cases fitted up with drawers, and I should have at intervals in the gallery doors opening into studies ; and I will undertake to say, that with this method of arrangement, I could not only dispose of the whole of the known birds in such a way that they should be of the utmost possible use to the man of science and to the general public, but that that room would be amply suf- ficient to hold all the additions for the next 100 years. 1085. I believe the plan that you have sug- gested is something like what is carried out at Kew at present, where, I believe, they have ceased ' to cultivate a great number of the less attractive species of herbs, exhibiting those which are more calculated to attract the eye of the public ; and keeping the remainder preserved for the scientific student? — I believe that is the case ; but the first person who carried out anything like a typical arrangement of a museum was. my friend Professor Henslow of Cambridge. Professor Henslow is a man of very great knowledge and great practical sense ; he found many years ago that the ordinary arrangements of museums were quite inadequate to afford instruction to the public ; and having to arrange a local museum at Ipswich, he arranged it on this typical method; and the advantages derived from it, though a very small museum, are exceedingly great. 1086. The same arrangement, I believe, is carried out in the British Museum, as to the ex- hibition of manuscripts ? — The arrangement runs more or less through the whole Museum ; and it is the exact arrangement that is pursued in the library ; for I am informed that four-fifths of the persons who go there consult only those books which are disposed around the walls of that mag- nificent reading room. That is a typical collec- tion of books; and I am toid, it suffices for the L 4 wants Prufes'ior T.H. Huxley, 1 9 June i860. 88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Professor wants of the great mass of the reading public. T. H. The rest of the less used or rare books in the Huxley. library, which are perfectly accessible to the pub- ,lic if they wish to see them, answer exactly to 19 June what I mean by my scientific collection in drawers i860. and in cases. It is the same with the manuscripts ; and I believe the insects are even now arranged in the way I speak of. 1087. Also with regard to prints ; the prints which are exhibited, are only those that are calcu- lated to excite interest, and attract the public ? — I believe so. 1088. Therefore you are of opinion that both the amusement of the general spectator, and also the requirements of science, couldbe secured with- out any very inordinate extension of the present dimensions of the Museum, so far as natural history is concerned ? — Quite so ; such an arrangement, as I speak of, has the advantage of rendering the collections accessible, both to men of science and to the public At present it is well known that the Museum is only really accessible to men of science on alternate days. It is quite impossible to work in the rooms when the general public are ad- mitted ; if you go to a case you will have fifty people around you in a moment ; the consequence is, that the only way in which a man of science can make use of the collection, is by going on alternate days. But by the adoption of the plan that I speak of, by separating the great mass of the specimens as a scientific collection which the general public never would care to see, that col- lection would always be accessible to men of science, whereas the typical collection would be always open to the general public, except on clean- ing days. 1089. Are you aware that in consequence of the alleged restriction as to space in the British Museum, plans have been submitted to the Trus- tees for extensions in the natural history depart- ment and elsewhere? — Of course every scientific naturalist takes so much interest in our great national collection, that we watch with anxiety all that is done ; and I have studied, with great care, the plans that have been proposed to the Trustees. 1090. Has the plan that was presented to the Trustees by the superintendent of the departments of natural history in February 1859 been con- sidered by you ? — I have that plan here, and I should be glad to offer some remarks upon it, because the consideration of that plan goes to the bottom of the whole matter. 1091. "With regard to the principle of the plan, which contemplates the exhibition of almost every specimen, do your objections apply to the prin- ciple of it ? — They apply first to the principle, as it is my belief that if you exhibit every speci- men you will diminish the usefulness of the col- lection to its minimum, both to the man of science and to the public. The effect upon the public will be, that they will walk through a vast mass of things of which a handy explanatory catalogue cannot be formed, and with which, therefore, they will be merely confused ; whereas, on the other hand, the effect upon the man of science will be, that you will render comparatively inaccessible to him the specimens which he wishes to study. It is often requisite to compare great suites of specimens or disarticulated bones, but if every- thing is to be mounted, I am at a loss to under- stand how a man of science can find time or opportunity for making those comparisons which are requisite. I think the principle in question is just the reverse of that which I advocate as that most fitted to attain the true objects of a great Natural History Museum. 1092. Besides your objection to the principle of the plan, have you any objection to the details of it, as being inconsistent with that principle ? — I have very large objections, even adopting the principle ; but I would point out, first, that, if the principle is to be consistently carried out, the space asked for here is not nearly large enough. It is true that the amount demanded is very large and city -like in its proportions ; but if you dis- play to the public, as I am told is proposed, not only a specimen of every mammal, but specimens of both sexes, and specimens of the leading varie- ties, and specimens of the young, I believe it is quite impossible that the space allotted to them should contain and properly exhibit the number of specimens which must be seen, huge as that space is. Then, again, there are a great many difficulties in procuring some of the specimens, to which I see places assigned. A very large amount of the area is to be taken up by the great Cetacea, and I am greatly perplexed to know how the skins of those large animals are to be obtained. A whaling master is too happy to use to the best advantage any short interval of calm and fine weather, and if he has a whale 90 feet long hooked on to his vessel, surely no one acquainted with what whaling is, will imagine that he will skin that whale and bring it home to be stuffed. Then these monsters are not commonly stranded upon accessible shores, and the operation of preserving their skins difficult ; it would be a very long time before you could obtain the specimens to fill this great Cetacean room ; however, that is a minor matter. If you are to exhibit all the varieties of the Mammalia, you ought to have all the domestic races, the stuffed varieties of horses, and of oxen, and of dogs, and I do not think that twice this space would hold the whole. 1093. With regard to the Cetacea, when those whales are caught, in order to boil up the blubber, it is necessary, is it not, to cut the whale into pieces ? — Yes. 1094. So that it would be almost impossible to get the skin entire ? — I think it would be exceed- ingly difficult. 1095. Presuming that you obtained the skins, and got them safe into the British Museum, and the weather became damp, would it be possible for any person to enter the room in which the skins were? — I think that they might sometimes find it unpleasant to enter the room, because the excessively oily character of the integuments of whales renders it very difficult to dry them and to clean them thoroughly ; and if you had two or three of these half preserved gigantic whale skins, the place would be intolerable. 1096. You do not think that the cetaceous gallery would be' very popular among the public ? — No. Then I would further remark, with re- gard to this plan, that granting that the space given to the Mammalia is rightly allotted, and granting that the space which is given to the birds is rightly allotted, I am quite unable to under- stand the principle upon which the spaces assigned in the plan are given to the articulate, the mollus- cous and the zoophytic animals. There is one gallery, or one room 250 feet long by 50 feet wide, that is to say, a room nearly five-sixths as large as the existing ornithological room in the British Mu- seum, which is allotted entirely to Mollusca. Now, the most liberal estimate of the species of Mollusca, which SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 8 9 which are for the most part, small animals, does not exceed 17;000 species. Close to this a simi- larly sized room, 250 feet long by 50 feet wide, is allotted in the plan to zoophytes, corals, and echinoderms, and the most liberal estimate that Can be given will not raise the number of the species of those animals, at present known, to 6,000 ; but, as we may increase that number, I will grant that there may be 10,000, and here you will have 17,000 species in one great room, and 10,000 in another; and these, be it under- stood, are for the most part small objects. But then, between those two, I find a room of ex- actly the same dimensions, which is allotted to the whole of the articulate series. Now of that articulate series, there are in the class of insects alone, at least 100,000 species at present known, and there are a number of other articulate animals, which make the total number up to somewhere about 108,000 species. There are some insects which are very small, and other articulate animals which are of very considerable dimensions ; but as all, if they are exhibited to the public, must be provided with easily legible labels, the room which any given number of specimens will occupy will, on the average, be pretty nearly equal to that which is occupied by a corresponding number of zoophites and the molluscs. I am, therefore, utterly at a loss to understand, upon what prin- ciple, precisely the same amount of space is allotted for all these three divisions of the animal kingdom, and more particularly because if there is any particular group in which we may expect an in- crease in the number of species it is the insects. Very competent persons have calculated that there are three insects for every species of plant, and that estimate would lead us to hope by and by to possess 300,000 species of insects. I believe that we may expect to have fifteen times the number of articulate animals that we have of molluscs, and perhaps thirty times as many articulata as zoophytes ; and yet there is the same space allotted for all the three. In addition to what I have mentioned, if the principle of complete exhibition is to be carried out in the articulate series, if you exhibit the different stages of the different animals, then, as a very large proportion of insects pass through three stages, the chry- salis, the grub, and the imago, and as the great majority of the Crustacea pass through a series of metamorphoses, and as the great majority of Entozoa, do the same thing, you would require to provide, in the " Articulata" room for at least double even this enormous number of specimens ; and yet for this multitude there is the same space allotted as for the comparatively meagre group of molluscs, on the one hand, and of zoophytes and echinoderms on the other. Again, in ex- amining the plan, I find two rooms, each 300 feet long, and 50 feet wide, gigantic rooms, allotted to the library, and to certain undefined offices. This appears to me to be a large space for any library; but, as I am informed, this natural history library is not to cost the public more than 20,000 1., and knowing something of the value of natural history books, I am greatly perplexed to understand how 20,000 1, would pro- cure books enough to fill two libraries of anything Hke these prodigious dimensions. Indeed, I am the more astonished at the estimate given for the ex- pense of the library, because it is recorded in the evidence given by Professor Owen before the Com- mittee which sat on the 15th Febuary 1849, in answer to Question 5200, that the sum of money 0.96. spent upon the College of Surgeons' library, which Professor is not a very large one, in . additions alone, be- T. H. tween the year 1830 and the year 1849, amounted Huxley, exactly to this sum of 20,000 1. Now it may be said, truly, that the library of the College of Sur- ^ofl 116 geons is not a natural history library, that it in- ' volves other branches of science ; but I know the College of Surgeons' library very well; and I can say that a complete natural history library must be fully as large as the College of Surgeons' library is. When you consider the great expense of natural history books ; there are some illustrated works published by my friend Mr. Gould, which cost 100 guineas, or 150 guineas a copy ; and when you consider the enormous increase taking place in natural history literature every day, I cannot understand either the estimate or the room which is allotted for the number of books to be purchased by the supposed estimate. Then in conclusion, I find, all this large space in the centre, a very considerable area, allotted to the "typical" so called, and the British collections; and on that point, I must say that if everything is to be ex- hibited to the public, I do not understand what is the use of having a separate typical collection ; if the public are to have free access to the whole of a building where everything is to be exhibited, and if a large area is demanded on their ground, I cannot see the use of a separate typical collec- tion. In fine, I should be extremely sorry to see the Government spending the prodigious sum of money which this building would cost, upon a plan that seems to have been so little matured, and which certainly would not be convenient, either for the man of science, or for the general public. 1097. Do you consider it likely, as far as you can ascertain, that any very great accessions of the large fossil mammalia are likely to arrive within any short space of time ? — I think it ex- tremely probable that a certain number will arrive. 1098. You are aware that at the British Museum, at present, there is no space for the exhibition of any of those large animals, even if they were restored ? — Yes ; I think the present space in the British Museum is very insufficient. 1099. Therefore, I presume you would pro- pose to restrict every department to its present dimensions, but you would provide for an increase of the space by degrees as the exigency arose ? — My own conviction is, if there could be provided anywhere, either gradually or at once, six such rooms as the ornithological room, which is 300 and odd feet long, by 45 feet wide, with aj>pro- priate offices, not only the existing collections, but all the collections which the Museum is likely to receive for the next 50 years, might be arranged in those six rooms so as to give the utmost amuse- ment and instruction to the public, and to afford the utmost facilities to men of science for their studies, and for the advancement of science. If six such rooms could be provided, they' would cover little more than a couple of acres, if all were built on the ground floor ; although I do not think that necessary, and I do not see why they should not be two storied ; and I conceive, that if these rooms were provided, all the space now occupied by the zoological collections in the British Museum might be given up for other purposes. 1100. You do not think yourself justified in calling upon the Government of the country to expend a very large sum of money in building over a large space of ground for the exhibition of M the 90 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Professor the present collections, or future additions to the T. H. natural history department ? — No ; I consider Huxley. that if two acres, or two acres and a half of - ~ ground — and I speak of the most liberal arrange- 1 afi 1 nC ment— keeping the different rooms on the same 1 ' ground floor, and giving them all top lights, which is a luxurious arrangement — if two acres and a half could be afforded, I would undertake to arrange in that space every specimen that is likely to be obtained in the next 50 years 1101. Including the present collection? — Yes ; I would put the whole collection into that space in such a way, as to make it most useful to the general spectator, and also perfectly subservient to the interests of science. 1 would make this re- mark, that I think the Committee can have but little notion of what the vast space for exhibition which exists, for example, in a room like the ornithological room at the British Museum really is. From some calculations that I have made, I find that the space given to us for the exhibition, the whole of the British fossils in Jermvn- street, (though it is true that the space is not altogether sufficient), is not greater than that which is afforded by the wall cases in that single room in the British Museum. 1102. Mr. Tite.~\ Is that room 350 feet by 50? — Three hundred and ten by forty-five, I think, and it is all allotted to birds. 1103. Chairman.'] Do you believe that the whole of the floor space of the College of Surgeons occupies a greater area than the ornithological room in the British Museum ? — From my know- ledge of the Museum of the College of Surgeons, speaking roughly, I should say, certainly not ; I doubt whether if all the great rooms of the Col- lege of Surgeons' Museum, taken together, amount to 300 feet in length. 1104. Have you any further remark to make to the Committee upon the first branch of the question? — There is one remark that I wish to make, which is this, that seeing that the Govern- ment is asked to spend such an exceedingly large sum, I think it would be a very good plan to authorise the keeper of zoology at the Museum to arrange his birds upon the typical plan ; to have this arrangement carried out in that one room. The experiment would not be a very ex- pensive one, and it would show whether the arrangement would answer or not. If it did, the saving of expenditure that would be effected would be perfectly enormous; and I should be excessively mistaken if it were not found that that arrangement would be highly approved of, both by the public and by men of science. 1105. How far would you approve, for the amusement of the public, of forming in the bird room fancy cases of birds, such as the case con- taining the birds of paradise and the Impeyan pheasant, to scatter them here and there, for the purpose of affording amusement? — I think that very desirable, not merely as giving amusement, but for showing certain gradations and harmonies of colour ; for instance, the colours of the hum- ming birds, and their relations one to the other ; they are all very interesting. I should be far from excluding objects of this kind from a public exhibition. 1106. In alluding to the re-organization of the British Museum, you referred to the principle of administration, as well as to the principle of ar- rangement ? — Yes. 1107. I see in a memorial which was presented to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the 18th November 1858, that you recommended that a scientific zoological museum and library should be placed under one head directly responsible to one of Her Majesty's Ministers, or under an organiza- tion similar to that which is practically found so efficient in regard to botany. That recommenda- tion, I presume, contemplated that a zoological museum was to be established separate from the British Museum ? — Yes ; it was assumed that the separation was decided upon. 1108. Then you are of opinion, presuming that the collections should be retained where they are, that it would be advisable that the British Mu- seum should be divided into three separate in- stitutions, with a responsible head, over each of those institutions ? — I am well convinced that it would be the best method to have a separate head for each of those departments. 1109. Under those circumstances I presume you would wish that the trustees should fulfil the functions of visitors ? — I should like the heads of those three collections to be directly responsible to the governing body, whatever that governing body might be. How much power of direct government should reside in the body of trustees is a difficult question ; it is a question of adminis- tration upon which I feel some hesitation in offer- ing an opinion ; but if they retain the direct governing power they now possess, I think it is necessary to alter their constitution a good deal ; and I must say that I think their functions should be in the main consultative. 1110. In page 2 of the Report of the Commis- sion which sat in 1850, there is this expression : " While nothing can be more clear, than that the statute conferred upon the Trustees, the most general powers of inquisition, superintendence and control, it may well be doubted how far it was intended that they should assume in all points the practical management, which would rather appear to have been left to the principal librarian, and to the officers by whom he was as- sisted." Do you consider that it would be for the benefit of the Museum that the whole practical management should be left to the heads of the different departments, and that the Trustees should merely stand between the Government and the heads of departments, as a consultative body, rather than as an administrative body ? — That is my im- pression ; that the control of separate departments, should rest entirely in the hands of the heads of those distinct departments and that the Trustees should merely have the power of approving or dis- approving in particular cases ; that they should exercise a certain general control as a Board of Visitors. 1111. In the Museum of Practical Geology, what is the course pursued with regard to pur- chases ; what is the latitude that is allowed you as to purchasing ?— The understanding is, that I may purchase anything which is under the value of 5 I. ; but if the purchase amounts to 20 I, then it must be referred to a Board of which Sir Rode- rick Murchison is one, and as a matter of course, if it amounts to more than 20 7. 1112. How often do you have access to that Board ?— I have no access to it directly ; my ap- plication is passed through Sir Roderick Mur- chison, and he refers it to the Committee of Privy Council for the Department of Science and Art. 1113 Can he authorise you to purchase to the extent of 20 1. ?— Up to that extent; but not to a, larger extent. 1114. Do you send in to him on each occasion a report SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 91 a report written upon the subject of the purchase that you wish to make, or do you explain it to him viva voce ? — It would depend upon the mag- nitude of the purchase ; if it were a heavy one, amounting to 100/., 1 should think it right to make a written report to him ; but if it was a small one, I should explain it to him verbally. 1115. Do you think it would conduce to the efficiency of the Museum if the heads of the de- partments were present when the business of their departments was being transacted? — I think not only when the business of their own departments is being transacted, but when the whole of the business is being transacted they should be present, though without the right of voting. I do not see how you can prevent whoever may be the exe- cutive officer for the body of trustees, from ex- ercising undue influence, unless the heads of de- partments are allowed to be present; if the applications of the heads of departments have to pass through the hands of any person, that person will -practically exercise a greater influence than theirs. 1116. Would it promote the interests of the Museum if the head of each of the three great departments had the same power, and the same responsibility as is vested in the corresponding officers of the National Gallery, the South Ken- sington Gallery, and the Museum of Practical Geology ? — Wit!) regard to the National Gallery and the South Kensington Museum, I cannot speak ; but I think they ought to have at least as much scope and independence as my col- leagues and I have in Jermyn-street. 1117- With regard to lectures, I believe you have been in the habit of delivering a course of lectures in the Museum of Practical Geology every year? — I have two sets of lectures to deliver, and one of these sets of lectures is given every year ; it is a long course of lectures to the students in the school of mines ; the other set of lectures is comparatively a short course, and is given in alternate years to the working men, and to working men exclusively. 1118. Do you find those lectures very well attended by the working men? — Exceedingly well attended ; all the tickets are always disposed of within two or three hours after the office is opened. 1119. Do they pay a small sum for admission ? — Sixpence is paid for registration, so as to make the lectures not absolutely gratuitous. 1120. Do you make any inquiry as to the posi- tion of a person who applies for a ticket? — Ap- plicants have to bring a written statement that they are working men, employed by such a person, 1121. Do you think that lectures of the descrip- tion which you give to working men, and which appear to be very popular, would be compatible with the objects for which the British Museum has been formed? — I think that would depend entirely upon the way in which those lectures were given, and the persons who gave them. I think there is a very considerable delusion exist- ing on that matter; there is a great cry for making public institutions useful, and the tacit assumption is that you can only make them use- ful by lecturing in them to a number of people ; but I think it is a great mistake to consider that to be the primary function of a large national mu^ seum like the British Museum. In my opinion a large national collection such as that is, stands on precisely the same footing as the library does ; it is, in fact, a great consulting library of objects ; 0.96. and I should no more think it necessary, in order Professor to make the Museum useful, to give lectures on T.H. those objects, than I should think it necessary Huxley. to have persons attached to the library to give lectures on literature, or upon history, or upon J 9 ■* une bibliography, in order to make the library useful. i860. I can understand the Museum being perfectly useful, and extremely valuable, and fulfilling all its primary purposes, wholly independent of lec- tures ; but I am by no means prepared to say that it might not be a very useful thing to give such lectures as a secondary application of the Museum. I should be very sorry to say it is advisable to devote that Museum absolutely to its primary function, and not make it additionally useful by lectures ; but I think you must discri- minate carefully between the office of a curator and the office of a lecturer. I am perfectly con- vinced of this, that the most effectual way of ruining the Museum would be to insist that every curator should be obliged to give lectures about his collection; the proper performance of the duties of the curator of a museum requires very special faculties ; in order to keep any collection of natural objects in thoroughly good order you require a great deal of special knowledge ; and to do it well you must be gifted by nature with a peculiarly quick eye and ready appreciation of differences and resemblances. I need not tell the Committee that all these faculties are utterly in- dependent of the power of expressing oneself in public. I know of persons who are most admirable curators, and yet their attempting to lecture in public would be very inexpedient both for them- selves and their audiences ; so that the practical effect of requiring lectures from your curators would constantly be, either that you would have bad curators on account of their being good lec- turers, or bad lecturers on account of their being good curators ; the two functions would be brought into collision. 1 1 22. You think that a person might be selected as curator on account of his facilities for delivering lectures, rather than on account of other qualities which would be more requisite for the office of curator ? — I think it is very probable that if any gentleman possessed the power of lecturing popu- larly, whether he were a sound man or not, that that would give him very considerable weight and influence. 1 will suppose that such a person could lecture on entomology, not being a sound ento- mologist, but a very clever lecturer, and that a vacancy occurred in the department of entomology at the British Museum ; that gentleman, no doubt, would be able to bring a very large pressure to bear upon the trustees to get him appointed to the post, while a very good entomologist, a man who was a thoroughly scientific entomologist but no lecturer, would have none of that external pressure to back him. The man who had the popular influence would be very likely 'to get the appointment. 1123. Would your objections apply to the in- troduction of, what I may call outsiders, into the Museum, to deliver lectures ? — Not at all ; I see no objection to that ; only let us understand that the Museum is to be a perfect Museum. If you want to make it useful in other ways, and te convert it more or less into a teaching apparatus, you can have a theatre, and appoint professors, and you can fill those professorships for five or ten years, with persons who may or may not be connected with the Museum; but what I object to is, to inseparably combining the two offices. M 2 1124. Mr. 92 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 19 June Professor H24. Mr. Monckton Milnes.] Are you content £' *f' with the present organization of the establishment Huxley. to w j 1 - c } 1 you belong ? — I think it is very good. 1125. Do you see any disadvantage in that establishment standing, as it were, by' itself, and not being specially connected with any other body ? — I see no disadvantage in it. 1126. Supposing you were beginning afresh, do you think that you would prefer to establish a great museum of natural history in connexion with institutions of art, or literary institutions, or that it should stand by itself, with its own in- terests and its own especial objects ?— I think that under a proper arrangement, it would be a matter of indifference which took place. 1127. Supposing that the natural history col- lection had not grown up in connexion with the British Museum, do you think it would have come into the head of any scientific man to attach it to any such establishment as the British Museum ? — No ; certainly not. 1128. Where then is the difference between that and separating it now from those other incon- gruous elements, supposing that it can be done with full security for the objects, and with the prospect of creating a first-rate establishment elsewhere 1 — I think that there is a very wide difference between creating an arrangement, and abstaining from interference with it when it is created. Had I to make a great general library, archseological collections, and natural history col- lections, I certainly should not see the utility of putting them together ; but as these various col- lections have gradually grown up together in the British Museum, I think the inconvenience of separation would be so considerable, that I should not like to be responsible for that inconvenience. 1129. Do not you think that in the working of such an establishment, the British Museum of natural history is very much encumbered by being connected with other objects and other interests ? — I think it is, as the Museum is at present or- ganized ; but I do not think it would be so if it were organized as I have proposed. 1130. But supposing that the prejudices in favour of the present government of the British Museum are so strong as they appear to be, from the entire neglect which has followed the recom- mendation of the Commission of 1850, do you think it better to go on with that defective con- stitution rather than attempt to separate the objects of natural history ? — I should do neither ; but I should endeavour to act upon the Govern- ment, through the House of Commons, and to change the mind of the Government, if it were possible. 1131. Do you think it would be possible to bring forward the defects of the present consti- tution of the British Museum in a sufficiently prominent light to cause an alteration ? — I think so. 1132. Supposing the constitution of the British Museum to be improved, would you then see unalloyed advantages in the connexion of the natural history collections with the other objects of the establishment ? — I should be very sorry to speak so enthusiastically as to say that they were tmalloyed advantages ; but I should prefer the amount of disadvantage that there might be, sup- posing that there were any, in remaining, to the very considerable amount of disadvantage that I see in removing. 1133. Have you communicated with any dis- tinguished foreigners on the subject of the amal- gamation of the objects in the British Museum ? — No, I have not. 1134. If it were determined to separate any portion of the objects of natural history from the British Museum, would it necessarily follow that all the objects of natural history must be removed ? — That would depend upon what portions were removed ; for instance, I do not think that the removal of the mineralogy would imply the re- moval of the zoology and botany ; nor would the removal of the zoology imply the removal of the mineralogy ; but I should think it extremely un- wise to separate the mineralogy, or the zoology or the botany into two portions. 1135. Supposing it was thought advisable to remove the zoological collections, and connect them as they are connected in the Jardin des Plantes with the living specimens, would it neces- sarily follow that any other portion of the collec- tions of natural history should also go ? — If I understand exactly what we both mean by mine- ralogy, and I mean simply minerals, without the fossils, I think the fossils should go with the recent things ; wherever they go or wherever they stop, I think they should be together. »_ 1136, Mr. Paller.] With the zoology ? — Yes. 1137. And the botany? — I do not consider that a matter of much consequence ; I do not consider it absolutely necessary for the botany to go with the zoology. 1138. Mr. Monckton Milnes.'] Would you desire that the Museum of Practical Geology should ex- tend itself in any other direction, or connect itself with any matters belonging to natural history ? — I should like to see it extend itself so far as to in- clude those objects which it was its primary inten- tion to exhibit, namely, colonial collections. I should not wish to see it extend in any other way than that ; I think it would be quite large enough then. 1139. Would you desire to see it connected either with mineralogy or with the phenomena of fossil life ? — We have very large Pakcontological collections there. 1140. Is there much there Avhich is a reproduc- tion of what is to be found in the British Museum ? — Yes, and yet the collections are very different. The fossil collection at the British Museum is a general collection of fossil plants and animals, taking their places in their proper classes and orders, but in the Museum of Practical Geology we arrange our collection in the main stratagra- phically, and, in the next place, all that part which is exhibited now is composed entirely of British fossils ; so that any person wishing to study British palaeontology can go at once and examine the fossils, either characteristic of, or known to exist in, any British formation ; the purpose of our collection is different from that of the collection of fossils in the British Mu- seum. 1141. Am I to understand, that your museum contains objects which are not to be found in the British Museum ; or is it a different collection from any to be found in the British Museum ? — I should say that there are a great many objects in com- mon ; but their arrangement, and the way in which they speak to the eye of the spectator or student, is entirely different in the two cases. 1142. Therefore, supposing there to be an unlimited quantity of space, would it not follow that all the advantages which the present natural history collections enjoy, from being attached to the British Museum, would also be enjoyed by your SKLECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 93 your establishment, if that was attached to the British Museum ? — I suppose we should have the same facilities. 1143. Has it ever been contemplated to attach your establishment to the British Museum ? — I never heard of such a project. 1144. Would any practical advantages result from that ? — Certainly not ; it has been from the first distinct. 1145. Can you explain why your establishment is better for being distinct ? — I did not mean to say that our establishment was better for being distinct ; I said that I did not think it would be better for being joined ; had we been originally joined to the British Museum, I do not think, so far as the Museum of Practical Geology is con- cerned, that there would have been any harm in it, or any difficulty. 1146. Was it ever in contemplation to attach your institution to the British Museum ? — I never heard anything of the kind. The museum in Jermyn- street has grown almost entirely out of the geological survey. I think it is not likely that such a scheme should be entertained ; you cannot join the buildings; the Museum of Practical Geology was built for its own purpose. 1147. As far as you know, have any separate branches of science been attached to the British Museum, of late years ? — Not within my know- ledge. 1148. So that the question is rather, whether we should separate what has already been con- nected, than connect anything new with the British Museum ? — Certainly, as I understand it. 1149. You do not see any reason why any fresh branches of science should be connected with that establishment? — No, certainly not; I would let it be. It has grown to that size, to that kind of proportion which it has, and I would let it be. 1150. But when collections become so much increased in growth as to be almost of a different nature from what was contemplated at the time when they were first established, does not that almost approach to a new state of things, in which entirely new requirements exist ? — 1 think that that is entirely a practical question; I do not see that it is a matter upon which one can have any general opinion. Tf it was shown to me that there were great practical disadvantages resulting from the collections remaining united in the Museum, I should say, separate them by all means ; it is a question of space, and involves various other con- siderations of that kind. It does not appear to me to be a matter upon which one could have any general opinion ; one's decision must depend upon a consideration of each particular case by itself. 1151. You heard a witness to-day state the practical advantages which he had found from being able to communicate with the officers in other departments of the Museum ?— Yes. 1152. Have you found any corresponding dis- advantages from your isolated position, and from not being able immediately to communicate with persons in other departments ? — I cannot say that I have ; and, after all, if I wished to go to the British Museum, it is not very far off.. Doubtless, there would be a certain amount of delay, but occasions such as you mention have not often arisen. 1153. These would be questions comparatively of time and personal convenience ? — Yes ; I should very often, on one ground, be glad to see one Museum near the other, as I frequently want to 0.96. compare fossil with recent specimens ; and it is a great waste of time to have to go from Jermyn- street to Great Russell-street ; but 1 am not aware of any other reason. 1154. Do you think that any of the advantages that have resulted from your establishment have depended upon the centrality of its situation ? — I think so ; for instance, with regard to the work- ing men's lectures, I should doubt much whether those lectures could be attended by the same class of men who now attend them ; and I can state positively that when giving my evidence in this room, before the Committee upon Public Institu- tions, a workman stated to me that he could not attend the lectures, even in Jermyn-street, by reason of the distance from his habitual place of work, which was in the east of London. 1155. Therefore, Jermyn-street is hardly suffi- ciently central? — No, a more central position would be better; but I think in a place like London, it is very difficult to say what is a cen- tral position. 1156. It is therefore quite possible, that as London is fast progressing westward, within a certain number of years, say the next 30 years, the district of Kensington may not be very remote from the centre ? — I think that would be quite true, if London were progressing only westward, and not also eastward ; but, as it is progressing as much one way as the other, I think the centre will remain where it is. In the east, there is an enormous population in the neighbourhood of Rotherhithe and Greenwich. 1157. Is not the extension of London, in that direction, limited by the nature of things ? — May I suggest to you to take a journey by the North London Railway ? I think that will convince you that there is a very great and active extension going on in the north and east of London, I may mention, in fact, that I happen to knoAV of a large scheme for the establishment of another crystal palace at Muswell Hill, and the ground upon which the projectors go is, that there is an enor- mously increasing population on that side of Lon- don ; so that I think the centre will remain quiet. 1158. Mr. Tite.~\ Do you know anything of the Swiney Lectures ? — I am acquainted with them. 1159. What is the nature of that endowment; is it connected with the British Museum ? — I am not very well informed upon that point, but I believe the trustees of the Museum have the admi- nistration of that fund. 1160. Are there certain courses of lectures^ delivered at other institutions, not in the Mu- seum ?■ — As I understand, the Swiney Lectures may be given anywhere. Dr. Melville, who holds the office now, has given one of those courses at the Museum in Jermyn-street; Sir Roderick Murchison having lent the theatre for that pur- pose. I believe Dr. Melville will give another course in Jermyn-street, and a third course in Edinburgh, 1161. Are they always on palaeontology ? — On that and allied subjects. 1162. Do you not think that the qualifications which are necessary for a public lecturer, and those which you would seek in the curator of a mu- seum, are of a different nature and quality? — They are exceedingly different qualifications ; but I do not say that they are absolutely inconsistent, as there are many who are able to combine both those functions. 1163. If a man became a very popular lec- turer, it is not likely, is it, that he would remain M 3 a curator Professor T.H. Huxley. 1 9 June i860. 94 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Professor T.H. Huxley. a curator at a moderate salary ? — I am afraid that most men who follow science as a profession are very glad to get any fixed income they can. 1164. You spoke of typical books, the more 19 June useful class of books, which are gathered together 1 80o. } n one large convenient room, they being the books which are more generally called for ; do you know the number of them? — Twenty-two thousand is the number stated. 1165. Of those, I believe, there is an especial catalogue ? — Yes ; but from habit I know the compartments that I wish to go to. 1166. Do you think that, in a certain sense, the objects of natural history should receive a similar description of illustration ? — I think that the model which has been so admirably provided in the library, would serve exceedingly well for other departments. 1167. In that manner the 2,500 specimens in one department of which you have spoken, could probably be brought down to 1,500? — Yes, speaking roughly, not of specimens, but of species. 1168. Referring to the dimensions which you gave, you thought that a room would be best adapted for your purposes, if it had in the first place wall cases of two feet six, or three feet, and then three avenues for the public, each 10 feet wide, and two rows of cases through the en- tire length ? — Yes. 1169. What would be the width of those rows of cases ? — For birds or their skeletons five feet wide would be amply sufficient. 1170. They would be seen from both sides? — Yes. 1171. You suggested that there should be ano- ther series of wall cases, with a gallery over ? — Yes ; one or two galleries, if the room were high enough. I think there is rather a waste of space in the ornithological room, on account of the comparative lowness of the ceiling. 1172. For the crowds that would come there, would not that upper gallery require a very large width?-! should not require the public to go there ; all that space would be allotted to the scientific collections. 1173. And not necessarily open to the public ? —Certainly not. 1174. In that case the projection of the gallery might be very moderate ? — Yes, not more than at the College of Surgeons ; three or four feet. 1175. Large enough to enable persons to in- spect conveniently the objects in the cases ? — Yes ; quite so. 1176. In that way the projection of the gallery would be as small as you could make it ? — Yes ; the light in the College of Surgeons is admirable. 1177. That is lighted from the ceiling, is it not ? — Yes. 1178. Referring to those collections which are growing up, I mean the majolicas, there are three collectons, and you have one ? — Yes, a small one. 1179. You seek to collect manufactured objects, derived frdm the earth, and so forth? — Yes; ours is a comparatively small collection ; it is not one of our principal objects. 1180. Have you no intention of extending it? — I think not to any considerable amount ; but I have no control over that part of our museum. 1181. If there is a collection of these objects growing up at Brompton, and another with you, and another with the British Museum, would not they rather clash? — Not so far as we are con- cerned ; ours is a very small affair. 1182. Is it, or not, desirable to have three col- lections growing up in different places ?— I cer- tainly should not have three collections of majolicas anywhere ; I can conceive there being a good deal of use in a double collection of natural objects, they may teach us a good deal, and it may be worth while having two collections ; but I should find it difficult to understand what use two col- lections of majolicas could be put to. 1 183. You do not think that in a manufacturing sense any advantage would be obtained by in- creasing the number of such collections? — I think not; I do not profess to know anything about pottery, but I suppose that majolica 'ware has only an antiquarian value. 1184. With regard to geological specimens, you see no great objection in there being two or three collections tolerably accessible ? — No. 1185. For your purposes, in reference to the geology of England ? — In the Museum in Jermyn- street we have two purposes : to exhibit in the first place a complete collection of the fossils of Great Britain, and in the next place, to exhibit collections of Colonial fossils; but we have no room to exhibit more than the British collection. 1186. You do not seek for any extraneous fos- sils ? — None that are not to be found in the dependencies of the Crown and in this country. 1187. Mr. Puller.] You have spoken of the ex- pense of forming a library of natural history, and rather intimated that you did not think 20,000 I, was sufficient ? — Yes. 1188. Have you formed any estimate of what would be required ? — No ; I can only judge in a sort of general way ; I think if it has cost 20,000 I. to make the requisite additions to the library at the College of Surgeons in 20 years', it will cost more than double that amount to form a proper library of natural history. 1189. Astoiliese typical collections, as they are called, do you propose to exhibit both sexes, and the different ages of the same animal ? — Wherever those things were necessary to explain any fact or any law, or to exemplify any consi- derable truth, I should do so ; I should not make an invariable rule of it, but I would do it when- ever any important object could be gained by it. 1190. Do you not think that the different varie- ties in any given species or genus, are important things to be known by the public ? — Yes ; where that variety was very important, I would exhibit specimens to show it. 1191. Taking anyone sort of bird or pigeon, or parrot, is it not an object of interest to see the different varieties which are obtained in different countries of the world, and would they not give the public a much better notion than if they saw only one typical^ specimen ? — Yes ; I would have the fact of variation illustrated properly, I would have it obvious to the eye ; but I would not have every variety of the whole class of birds exhibited SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. i)H Veneris, 22" die Junii, 1860. Sir Philip Egerton. Mr. ~W. H. Gregory. Sir George Grey. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Knight. Mr. Lowe. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Puller. Lord Stanley Mr. Stirling. Mr. Tite. Mr. Turner Mr. "Walpole. Mr. W. H. GREGORY, in the Chaik. Dr. John Edward Gray, called in ; and further Examined. 1192. Chairman.^ YOU have expressed a wish to add something to your former evidence ? — It appeared to me that I might make my evidence more distinct, and give it more weight, if I add a written statement to what I have already stated on the matter. I have taken every care not to repeat what I have already stated. 1193. Are they the same views which you expressed to the Committee on a former occasion, but merely making those views more distinct ? — Certainly. This is the statement: " Considering that the object of the Museum is to exhibit a collection that will give the largest amount of information, instruction, and pleasure to the pubHc at large, and to the scientific student and artist, and at the same time to afford the more scientific student or professor the best means of pursuing his researches, I believe that this is best carried on by exhibiting the larger, more important, and interesting animals, and such a series of the smaller ones as will afford a good outline of the arrangement of the animal king- dom, in the manner that they can be best seen, examined, and studied, and as most illustrative of their habits ; and that we should also have a second collection kept in drawers and presses in private studies, for the use of the more scientific visitors, who want to examine and compare them in greater detail, proportioning the number of kinds exhibited according to the interest that the object excites in the popular mind, and regarding the liability or non-liability of the specimens being injured by exposure to light and dust. This sys- tem has always been followed in the zoological department ; but I have, by experience, become more and more convinced that we have hitherto attempted to exhibit too many kinds of animals, as the smaller ones are not distinguished by the usual visitor, and cannot be studied effectually by the more scientific one, without being removed from the cases. The more general adoption of this plan would, I am convinced, be more useful to the public, and allow the more interesting spe- cimens to be better seen. I 'may observe that this is the plan followed in most of the other departments in the Museum: thus, in the de- partment of MSS. a certain number of the more interesting autographs, MSS., missals, &c, are exhibited, and the rest kept in private rooms. It is the same in the department of printed books, where a most interesting selection of early printed books and other works are shown in cases in the King's and Grenville libraries ; and in the King's Library is also exhibited a most 0.96. 22 June i860. beautiful, and valuable series of prints and draw- Dr. ings. In the ante-room to the botanical department J- -£• Qray> is exhibited a series of woods, fruits, fungi, and other objects most interesting to the public. In the antiquarian department there is the lately acquired and most beautiful, but small collection of anti- quities left to the country by Sir W. Temple, which are so admirably arranged in one-half of a single room ; and the comparatively large number of visitors which are generally to be seen looking at this collection, shows that it is better understood and appreciated by the public ; they seem similarly interested with the small, but well filled third Greco-Roman saloon. In the same manner there is a well selected collection of some 20,000 volumes of books placed round the new reading-room, from which the readers may select such works as they wish to consult at their leisure, and the fact stated in the annual report for 1860, that three-fourths of the volumes consulted by the readers in the year are taken from those shelves, shows how greatly the public appreciate this arrangement, and at the same time how small a collection may be exceedingly serviceable and useful to a very large number of visitors. These facts, and the necessity of studying the whole question that has been forced on my mind by the recent renewed agitation as to enlargement of the Museum, or the removal of some of the collections, have made me come to the conclusion that a comparatively small, well- arranged collection of the more interesting speci- mens would be most instructive and useful to the public, and that the space we at present have, with the addition of a room for a selection of the osteological specimens, will be sufficient for such a collection for some years to come. In- deed, I believe that the public at large does not so much want a very large museum, and would prefer a smaller one of well-arranged, well pre- served, and well exhibited specimens. The following observations of a writer in the ' Times,' ' But why cannot the British Museum be left in its present state? It is overflowing with works of interest, and the fatigue of inspecting them is enormous. In fact the human mind is in- capable of recollecting them, and one quits the Museum listless and wearied,' I think truly represent the public feeling on this subject, at least that is my experience, after continued in- quiries among all classes of people. The writer adds ' Let Kensington, then, be the deposit of all the articles for which extra room is now required, and then everything will be open to M 4 the 9 6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE i860. Dr. the inspection of the public' If this was made J. E. Gray. a ru i e by the trustees, I believe that very few ~ — things indeed would be sent to Kensington, be- 2 \ oi!f e cause room would then be found or made for every- thing within the Museum itself. While, as we know by the momorial from the zoologists to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and from the custom of the zoologists themselves as regards their own collections, they would prefer to have the specimens for scientific study preserved in presses, drawers, or boxes. in private studies, and kept in the best state for scientific comparison, and for the examination of their characters; and the manner in which exposed specimens have deteriorated by exposure to light and dust show that for such purposes specimens which are not exhibited were much better suited for their purpose. v The great and most urgent want of the zoological department is studies in which this series of specimens can be kept for convenient consultation; and for this purpose, rooms like those in a common domestic residence are best suited. The very large Zoological museum which, is foreshadowed in the plan of Professor Owen and the principal librarian, is certainly not re- quired by the public ; we have already had an example in the glass palace at Sydenham, that it is easier to build a large museum than it is to fill it, especially so that it shall repay the outlay, either in money or in conveying instruction and amusement ; and I do not think that it can do the latter if the people will not, or cannot go to see it. They tried there a zoological collection in its most attractive form, that is, with the animals in action, or grazing in their natural stations, an ethnographic collection placed on models of the men that wear the dresses, &c, and imaginary models of the most wonderful fossils, but they would not draw visitors, and they have all been withdrawn, except the model fossils, which are now wasting away, and as yet a large portion of the building has not been used for exhibitions of any kind. It cannot be from its situation, as it is easier of access than Kensington, there being a railway at each end and the middle of the town into it ; I fear that if the plan was tried at Ken- sington, it would be an equal failure, and at an enormous outlay of money for the building and fittings, which, if I understand the estimate, can- not cost less than a million sterling, and a large annual cost for the enlargement of the collections, the purchase of a library, and the salaries of the officers, for a collection of such an extent cannot be made except at a great cost, and kept in order without a very large increase in the number of persons employed. I have been told, indeed, as one of the reasons why it would be advantageous to go, that if the collection was moved from the Museum, there would be no difficulty in getting from Parliament a grant nearly as large as that now obtained for the British Museum, viz., 100,000 I. per annum, and that nearly as many persons would be employed there as here, viz., 270, and indeed, if the number is requisite here, how could a museum quite as large, covering five acres, be kept in order with less ? and if, with all the mixed attractions of the finest and most varied collections of antiquities, a magnificent library, a large well-used reading room, besides the natural history collections, which are attractive to the mass of the public, draw only a limited number of visitors, how many visitors are we to expect from a natural history museum alone in a situation of such difficult access as Kensington. A gigantic museum, such as that proposed, cannot be required for the scientific zdologist, for their number is very limited ; I may state, that, excepting students of British natural history (including insects), who are very numerous, and amateur collectors of shells, who are also numerous, the scientific zoolo- gists that consult our collections for purely scien- tific purposes are very few indeed ; I should have a difficulty in making out a list a hundred of them, if I could even of two-thirds of that num- ber, including foreigners as well as natives, who have visited the Museum for scientific purposes during the last two years, and I have never heard any of those who consult it complain of the smallness of the collection, but, on the contrary, generally have expressed their astonishment at its richness, and the facilities for consultation. This is the entire number, I am sorry to say, after every effort for years to increase it by all the means in my power, giving to students the greatest facilities consistent with the due care and preservation of the specimens, and after employing and paying some of them to describe the specimens. Of course this means the number of persons, not of visits paid to the collection. Some come daily for weeks or months together, others only at dis- tant periods of time, and the use they make of it is highly important, for though the number is so small, these persons have written most important works, and keep the science of zoology in this country in advance of that in any other part of Europe, and thus they produce the works which educate the people, and enable them to appreciate the wonders of the creation, and the objects ex- hibited. If the very large museum is required for these students and professors, would it not be cheaper to give them 1,000 1, a year each, and let them make a special collection for their own use, as then the expense of the building would be saved ? But such an idea is too preposterous to be entertained, but it will show the extravagance of the plan suggested. These scientific gentlemen would be inconvenienced by having all the speci- mens exhibited ; some of the more active of them have expressed that opinion in the memorial to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in which they show how they like to have the specimens so as to be of the most use to them by the manner they keep_ their own private collections. Indeed, I am convinced that more would be done for the pro- gress of zoology by the appointment of a few more well-educated assistants or temporary aids at a moderate, but fair remuneration, not the miserable salaries now given, that is- to say, a larger grant for the preparation of catalogues to make known the riches of the collection, and to describe the specimens we have, than by the build- ing of an overgrown museum. I have asked for ad- ditional studies, and to have some galleries erected over the wall-cases in some of the zoological rooms, as, for example, the bird gallery, which could hold some of the collections that are com- paratively seldom consulted ; I do not mean these galleries for the public, or the cases, transparent glass cases to make the public desire to see what they contain, but opaque cases to contain the animals in spirits ; for example, specimens which, by a few years', or even months' exposure to the full glare of the light of the sun would be bleached, and thus ruined and spoiled. The erection of such galleries and cases would not require the alteration of the skylight, as Mr. Smirke seems to imply, as those at present in the roof will give quite as much light as is required for the purpose to SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 97 to which I would apply them. Nor does it re- quire that the roof of the rooms should be height- ened, an alteration that would necessitate, the architect affirmed, the moving out of the collec- tion, and the closing of the gallery for a consider- able time, much to the detriment of the public and science. This gallery and these cases would indeed be subsidiary to the studies, and if the trustees decline erecting these galleries, the de- partment would require more studies to contain the specimens that I propose to arrange in the galleries over the cases, simply to make use of what appears to me to be available room in the building. I find the land I suggested is scarcely available, as it is now used as a garden for the principal librarian's residence. One of the houses in the streets or squares round the Museum would answer the purpose well ; but then it would not be within the walls of the Museum ; not that dry skins of animals, or animals in spirits, or insects, are very valuable spoils for a common thief; they are more tempting to an enthusiastic collector. If that objection is fatal, the officers' residences might be applied to the purpose ; and I see, by one of the reports of a committee of the trustees, dated 21 January 1860, it is stated that ' the converting the houses now occupied by the officers to the purposes of the Museum are worthy of considerable attention.' I may state, that, in Paris, the laboratories, as they are called, which contain the insects and the other animals in store, are in a separate building, at some distance from the museum. It is the same in Leyden ; indeed, in most continental museums. I do not know any museum where so much attention is paid to have the collection in a systematic, consecutive order, as in the British Museum. One part of a collection, enlarging more rapidly than another, as will occur from the natural course of events, renders the most complete systematic arrangement as made, when it was first established, or placed in a new building, of no avail. We are soon obliged to make the best use of the space, and not pay so much attention to the order in which the collections come. The present want of a room for the osteological collection in the Museum arises from there having been scarcely any collection of the kind in the institution when the space in the new buildings was appropriated, or I have no doubt it would have been provided for, and the coming of the Banksian collection deprived the zoological department of some of the room appro- priated to it. I do not complain of this, as a museum of natural history without a botanical collection would be an anomaly not to be thought of for a moment, and very injurious to natural science. One of the reasons assigned for re- quiring increased room is, that we cannot exhibit large whales, large sharks, and other gigantic marine animals. To this I may observe, that, though I have been most anxious to obtain these animals for years, and have used every exertion in my power to get them, and, if I could get them, would willingly pay a large price for them, yet I have not succeeded in doing so. If I had, I would do my best to find a place to show them in. As regards large whales, this arises from the difficulty of preserving the skin when taken off the animals, and also from the habit which the whalers have of flinching the skin and blubber off the body together, as to take off the skin first would spoil the blubber, for which whales are caught, and allow much oil to run out and to waste. But even supposing we could get a skin, 0.96. it is so difficult to dry it, as it peels off in flakes, Dr. and, when dry, is apt to become so offensive J. E. Gray. in damp weather, even when tanned, that few visitors would like to be in the room where 22 June they are exhibited. Even the small British .860. species in the British room are much complained of. I have, however, succeeded in getting the skin of the smaller fin-back whale, about 20 feet long, and, after great trouble and expense, have succeeded in getting it preserved with the greatest care by our first taxidermist, but it gives a very poor idea 01 the animal, and is not so very offensive in the damp weather as some of the dolphins and smaller cetacea. I have pub- lished two works on the Marine Mammalia, that is the whales and seals, in the British Museum, in which I have more than doubled the species previously known, and I have no doubt we have more specimens of these animals in the British Museum than in all the other museums in Eu- rope put together, and it is this that has enabled my work to be so complete. For example, we have preserved skins of the fin-backed whale, the hump- backed whale, the white whale, or beluga; the susa, or Gangetic porpoise; the dugong, the lamantin, the walrus, the elephant seal, the sea_ lion, the sea bear, the fur seals, &c. ; the skele- ' tons of sundry large whales, and the skeletons and skulls of many dolphins and seals. The only at- tempt of pretending to show a large whale to the public I found not to be a whale at all, but a canvas stretched over a wooden framework, with wooden paddles, and well painted ; but I do not think that such kind of things are desirable to be shown in the British Museum, where everything ought to be real and good. In some of the con- tinental museums attached to the universities (most of these institutions abroad are formed almost entirely for the use of the students, and very seldom visited by the public at large), I have seen models two or three feet long of each genus of whales formed of plaster of Paris, but I do not think these afford more information than good plates ; and to put such models into a good building, especially gigantic ones, is like putting a false gem into a richly jewelled casket. One or two enthusiastic conservators of museums seem to think (I suppose, on the principle of the old fable, that one cannot have too much of a good thing, and especially of their own good thing) that a museum cannot be too large, and if they had one, however large, would wish to have a larger one still, thinking it a matter of national importance to keep enlarging it, and that there cannot be too many of them. I think as an officer of the British Museum, I ought to have a wider view of the question, and try to reconcile the wants of the scientific man with the general feeling of the public, for I believe that if the naturalists and literary men were to make too large a demand on the public purse, and run counter to the feeling of the public in such respects, which at present I do not think they are inclined to do, as almost all I meet with agree with me in opinion, that there would be a revulsion of feeling on their part, and through their representatives. Science would be cramped by the very excess of the de- mands of a few enthusiasts. Already many persons, especially some of the inhabitants of Lancashire and Yorkshire (influential persons as regards the feeling of the country), consider that the Govern- ment spend too much on the literary and scientific institutions of the metropolis ; what would they say if so large an expenditure as a new Museum, N five 9 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 22 June i860. Dr. five acres in extent, built at a very large cost, and J. E. Gray, erected in a fashionable part of the town, was suddenly added to the estimates. I fear the natural history collection would fall between the two in- stitutions, being expelled from one and not housed in the other, or, if housed, contracted into a smaller space than that from which it was expelled at the wish of these enthusiastic, but unwise friends. I can only repeat my opinion, that the Museum, in its present state, is nearly, if not quite as large, as the public require; that if the Government were to say, and to keep to it, we will not give you any more space, and therefore make the most of that which you have, and keep to that opinion, that the collections could be more economically arranged, that is to say, the rooms could be filled with objects more interesting to the world at large, instead of the arrangement being deferred until the question is settled, in the hope that more room or other rooms will be obtained, which has caused them to be for years in a transition state. I have always thought that Lord Aberdeen was very wise when he said he would not give any more ground to the institution, as this dictum led to the designing and building of the beautiful central .reading room, and the space round it, where, we are told, there will be abundant room for fifty years to come. It has been observed, that it would not be creditable to a great nation like England only to have such a collection as I have proposed, but I think that such an observation must have arisen from the plan recommended not being understood. I do urge, and have always urged, that the collection in the British Museum should be the best, most perfect, and best arranged in the world, which, taken as a whole, it at pre- sent is. It ought to be so, when we consider the riches and very extensive commerce of this coun- try. At the same time I consider that it should be kept in such a way as to be most useful and instructive to the public at large, and most avail- able to the scientific, literary, and artistic student, and I think this is best done by showing the largest and most interesting articles, and keeping the others as the scientific persons themselves desire, and, as they say, they are most useful to them. I have never changed my mind on the subject, but have conformed to what I had reason to believe was the general wish, and the younger school of zoologists have rather come to my idea than I to theirs. I believe that the larger exhi- bition which we have hitherto shown may have had its use, and that now the other is more called for ; there are changes in fashion in these things, as well as in dress, and that the medium between the two plans, will be of the greatest advantage to all parties. The collection for study is not in- tended to consist of specimens such as would satisfy palaeontologists, who state that a few teeth, and a piece of a skin, instead of a perfect speci- men of" a fish, is enough for the scientific student, or who can remake a skeleton out of a single toe- bone, or make species on two toe-bones because they are of different sizes, but of the most perfect specimens that we can procure, of all ages and varieties. These are required, as I am convinced that almost all the fabulous romance of Biogenesis, by such authors as Buffo n, Lamarck, Darwin, and others are founded on the imperfection of the materials in zoological collections, and the imper- fect observation of them, and of the knowledge of the habits of the animals in a state of nature. The fact of such a collection having been formed in so few years, is a great practical proof of the ex- cellence of the constitution of the Museum, and shows the interest which the trustees and Govern- ment have taken in it. I know no institution that has made such rapid progress. I can well recol- lect its state of old, and when the " new building" was commenced, I hardly anticipated, however much I might hope it, that we should ever come up to the then existing zoological collections of Paris, Holland, and Berlin, still less to exceed them, as I believe we now do, all put together, not only in the extent and state of the collection, but as certainly in the facilities we offer for their use. Here they are ever open to all who choose to consult them, as best suits their convenience and purpose, whether zoological, educational, or artistic, and as a German gentleman, who has been employed here, justly observed the other day, they are of as much use to the foreigner as the native student or professor. If the Govern- ment will continue to the zoological department the grant it has lately received, and add to it a room for the osteological collection, some studies, and some small additional means to pay for the preparation and printing of more catalogues of the collection, I believe that both the public and the scientific students will be satisfied, and that more advantage would be gained "than by any large increase of our space ; especially at a time when the public mind is intent on preparations against war." 1194. I wish to ask a question with respect to an answer which was given to Question 622. I see in answer to a question put by me to Professor Owen, the following passage ; " The whole intel- lectual world this year has been excited by a book on the origin of species ; I may say, to a degree equal to the excitement caused by Mr. Glad- stone's budget ; they divided the conversation of the intellectual world ; and what is the conse- quence ? Visitors come to the British Museum, and they say, ' Let us see all the varieties of pigeons; where is the tumbler, where is the pouter,' and I am obliged, with shame to say, 'I can show you none of them ' " I wish to ask, have you got these varieties of pigeons in the British Museum, and if not, why have you not got them ?— It is a mistake. We have several varie- ties of the pigeon. 1195. Have you got a list? — Yes; you re- quested me to bring it with me. 1196. Have you got the tumbler pigeon? — We have the tumbler. 1197. Have you got the pouter pigeon? — I do not see the pouter's name down in the catalogue. 1198. Are the tumblers exhibited? — °The tumblers are exhibited, certainly. I may state that we are expecting to receive them from Mr. Darwin, who has promised to give us all the varie- ties on which his book is written, and conse- quently we have not been very anxious to extend our domestic varieties, because he has collected all of them. 1199. Sir P. Egerton.] How many varieties have you at present?— We have 12 domestic varieties of pigeons. 1200. Chairman.] Will you be good enough to turn to Question 624. I see in answer to that, this is stated by Professor Owen, " We have no exhibition of British sharks." Have you any British sharks in the British Museum ? — There are British sharks in the collection, certainly. 1201. How many varieties ? — I do not exactly recollect. We have 23 specimens. I believe we exhibit all the species known to inhabit Britain. 1201*. Are SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 99 1201.* Are there 23 specimens exhibited?— Yes. 1202. There has been a considerable demand for space for the exhibition of specimens of orni- thology. On visiting the British Museum yester- day, I remarked that in one family, that of the pterocles, there are seven specimens exhibited of the pterocles senegalensis, and five specimens of pterocles exustus. If you require so much space for the exhibition of birds, upon what principle do you exhibit so many specimens of the same species? — Generally to show the changes in their plumage or their habitat where they come from. We generally show two or three specimens of each species. I am not prepared to give you the reason in this instance. The specimens may come from different parts of Africa. I believe we have several specimens of each species of birds. 1203. Do you think it requisite to show seven specimens of one species of bird ?— I think that has been the case in several instances. 1204. Do you think that requisite ? — According to the circumstances of the case ; if they were of different habitats, or of different sexes, I should say it was requisite. I am not prepared to give the reasons why there are so many pterocles, not having examined them particularly, but I should say that it is requisite to have varieties of birds as well as kinds. 1205. Would the public be able to gather from those specimens that you had any reason for their exhibition ? — I cannot answer that question. I do not think it is requisite that so many should be exhibited, if they are alike. 1206. Sir«P. Egerton.] The bird puts on dif- ferent plumage at different times of the year, and you think it advisable to exhibit the change of plumage? — Yes, as far as regards plumage, I should think it desirable that they should be exhi- bited ; but we do not want a very large increase D r . of our space for new specimens, because we could j, £, Qray. take out some of the specimens and make room for others. 2 a June 1207. Chairman.] Do you not think it would be i860. advisable in the exhibition of specimens to place some notification of the distinction between the male and the female bird? — We generally do mark them as male and female, and we always mark the habitat. 1208. In the instance to which I have referred, are you aware that there is no distinction ? — If they come from different habitats they are marked ; supposing one comes from Senegal, and another , from North Africa, the habitat is always marked with the name of the bird. 1209. Are you aware that a great number of birds are not named at all? — They are all named on the stand, but there are not the labels to all of them ; almost every bird is named on the under- side of the stand ; many birds have not been described, and those which have been left unde- , scribed are not named ; a painter is now, and has been long, employed in painting the labels. 1210. Would it not be possible to put on written labels until the painter can complete the painting of the name? — I see no difficulty in having the name painted. 1211. Mr. Turner.] Is it not necessary to exhibit several specimens of the same species of bird, in order to show the difference of plumage in the different ages of the bird ? —Yes. 1212. Is it not the case, that in several species many have been found to be of the same species which were once thought to be different species, in consequence of the plumage varying in different years ? — It is absolutely necessary, in such birds as those, to show the different plumage. John Joseph Bennett, Esq., examined. 1213. Chairman.] YOU are keeper of the Bo- tanical Department of the British Museum? — Yes. 1214. Is it your wish to give your views upon the subject of the Botanical Department in writing? —It is. 1215. Will you be good enough then to read the Committee your views ? — I believe the first ques- tion on which the Committee is desirous of informa- tion is, with reference to space. My answer on that point is this: The Botanical Department consists of two principal subdivisions, the herbarium, which is open to consultation, and the exhibition, which is open to the public at large. The herbarium, which is one of the most extensive in existence, and of high authority throughout the world, is contained in two rooms lighted from above, with about 3,000 feet of floor space ; but a portion of this space is now occupied with store presses, or with presses containing specimens geographically arranged, or in progress of arrangement, for which a good and easily accessible store-room would be sufficient. If this were provided, there is ample space for our present herbarium, and for the probable additions of half a century to come. The exhibition, which is of small importance as compared with the herbarium, but in which, since its opening, we have found the public take a great deal of interest, is provided with about 1,500 feet of floor-space, also lighted from above. A part of this, space is at present unoccupied, but we have materials to fill 0.96. it. I do not contemplate any great addition to j j this part of the collection. It was always Mr. BenneU,Etq. Brown's object, as it has been my own, to limit it as much, as possible to structural botany, leaving the useful applications of vegetable products to the economical museums of Kew and Kensington. The result is that there is no pressing necessity for any immediate extension, and that with the addi- tion of a small amount of easily accessible store- room we should have ample space for all our present possessions and future wants. 1216. Have you any observations to make with regard to the suggested transfer of the botanical collection to Kew? — I am strongly of opinion that no material advantage would arise from the removal of the botanical collections to Kew ; but, on the contrary, great and serious disadvantages. In the first place, such a removal would deprive the great mass of Londoners, and of visitors to London, whether foreigners or from the country, of the privilege and advantage of ready and easy access to a very large and well-named collection of plants, which they have enjoyed for a great number of years, at a very small cost to the nation, the whole expenditure on the Botanical Department being under 1,000 1, a year. I have no hesitation in saying, that this would cause serious inconvenience, and in many instances pecuniary loss, not only to botanists and amateurs, but to artists, students in public institutions, persons engaged in trade, and others who are in N 2 tQe 100 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J. J. the habit of seeking information of the officers, Bennett,Esq. which they have always been ready to afford to the best of their ability, and which it is often of 22 June importance to obtain without loss of time. In 1000. fa e secon( j place, the separation of one depart- ment of natural history from the rest, cannot be effected without injury and mutilation to all. Such a separation would at once destroy that unity and completeness on which Professor Owen and others have so strongly insisted as essential to a National Museum of Natural History. Many naturalists, indeed most, do not limit them- selves to the cultivation of a single branch, and it is in the highest degree convenient to them to pass from one department to another under the same roof. It would be extremely hard upon them if this privilege were taken from them ; and if, instead of passing directly from palseontology to -botany, or from botany to zoology, they were com- pelled to traverse many miles in order to connect the different branches of their study. Then, again, palaeontology is the natural bond of connexion between all. To deprive a zoologist or a botanist of ready access to the palasontological collection, is equivalent to mutilating him of a limb ; while, on the other hand, the whole science of palaeon- tology reposes on the power of readily and immediately comparing fossil with recent speci- mens, whether animal or vegetable. But even if little weight were attached to these considerations, which, I have no hesitation in saying, are of the highest importance in the minds both of naturalists and of the public at large, the question of the transfer of the botanical collections to Kew is a very wide one, and opens up an entirely new field of investigation, in which the construction of new buildings, and the providing an efficient staff, be- came prominent and essential objects. At present the herbarium of the British Museum is the only very large herbarium belonging to the nation. Only a small portion, about one-fifth, of the Kew her- baria, is the property of the nation ; the remaining four-fifths are the private property of Sir William Hooker. If this magnificent collection were to become, as in my opinion it ought to become, the property of the nation by purchase, it would form a noble accompaniment to the splendid garden of which Sir William Hooker has the direction. But there is no national building for its reception; it is at present lodged in a house which is the private pro- perty of the Queen, and is graciously lent by Her Majesty as a special favour. There is absolutely no space for the reception of the herbarium of the British Museum. This herbarium, I may add, would add but little to the number of species in the Kew collections, more than nineteen-twen- tieths of the species being identical ; so that Lon- don would be greatly injured by its removal, without any corresponding benefit elsewhere. In a letter of Sir William Hooker, addressed to my- self, under date of 18 June 1858, he says, speak- ing for himself and Dr. Hooker : "We think that the collection would be more useful, if combined with those of Kew than by remaining in London ; but the more I look into the matter, I see insur- mountable difficulties arising to such a removal, whether of the Sloanean or Banksian collections, to say nothing of what Brown had destined for the British Museum, if the conditions were acceded to. To us (Dr. Hooker and myself) it literally and truly can be a matter of no consequence ; such collections might and would add to the character and respectability and usefulness of ours, but we have enough for our own purposes and the means of increase." There are many other objections to which I might refer, but I will only add one, viz., the strongly expressed intentions of the founders and donors of the collection. Sir Hans Sloane, in his will, directed his "dried samples of plants," together with his other collections, to be offered to the nation at a price very greatly below their original cost and their market value, " to remain, together, and not be separated, and that chiefly in and about London, where I have acquired most of my estates, and where they may, by the great confluence of people, be of most use." The most authoritative part of our collections is the herbarium of Sir Joseph Banks, with which the more recent acquisitions have been incorpo- rated, and which was specifically bequeathed by him to the British Museum. Now, Sir Joseph Banks was, during the whole of his life, the great promoter of the Botanic Garden at Kew. It was he alone who took any scientific interest in it, and who recommended all the scientific arrangements connected with it. He bequeathed a considerable salary to a highly talented botanical artist, whom he had attached to it, and did every- thing in his power for the promotion of its in- terests as a garden. But he felt the paramount importance of a central situation, and of an inti- mate connexion with the other branches of natural history for his herbarium, and he therefore be- queathed it, together with his library, to the British Museum. Mr. Brown himself, the highest botanical authority that could be quoted, left his collection of fossil woods, the most valuable in existence, " to be placed in the British Museum, but only on condition of the trusteed determining to allow it to form part of the botanical exhibi- tion, under the charge of the keeper of botany." Should they decline to receive it on this condi- tion, he added, " I bequeath it to the Edinburgh Museum ;" which, like the British, is a general collection of all the branches of natural history. In his evidence before the Museum Commission of 1848-9, Mr. Brown expressed himself strongly against a then suggested removal of the herba- rium to Kew ; and I will conclude by directing the attention of the Committee to a striking pas- sage at p. 36 of the Report of that Commission, in which the Commissioners state their entire con- currence in the objections then made to the dis- memberment of the British Museum. 1217. Do you remember the amount of the estimate for your department? — I cannot give the exact figures, but it is between 900 /. and 1,000 I. It is 150 1, for purchases, 25 /. for books, and the salaries and wages bring it up to about 950 1. 1218. Mr. Turner."] I suppose the Removal of the collection would almost necessitate the crea- tion of a new botanical library, would it not ? — It would, unquestionably. 1219. How many thousand volumes should you suppose would be necessary to provide, in order to elucidate the botanical collection? — Of merely botanical works, 10,000 or 12,000; but of other works necessary for the elucidation of the collec- tion, a great multitude. 1220. Of course, costly books 1 — Many of them very costly. 1221. But not generally ? — A very great many of them would be costly. 1222. LordSton/ey.] They would be illustrated works for the most part, would they not ?— Those, of course, would be the costly ones. There are many SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 101 many others, of great rarity, in the Banksian Library, which would hardly be obtainable. 1223. Mr. Turner.~] Do you suppose that at Kew, which is largely visited on the Sunday, but not so numerously visited on other days of the week, such a collection would be likely to have many visitors or persons who would refer to it ? — I do not think it would have nearly so many visitors with a definite object as it has in London. 1224. Is it, as a matter of fact, much referred to even in the British Museum, except by scientific persons?— Yes; it is greatly referred to by students and by artists, whom I have always found unwil- ling to go as far as Kew, although I recommend them to go there to study the living plant. Rather than go to Kew, they will take the dried plant in the herbarium. It is also a good deal referred to by mercantile men who are interested in the objects which come into the market, and are de- sirous of knowing all that can be known about them. 1225. From what you state of Mr. Brown's request with regard to his collection, I suppose if the collection were removed from the British Museum, it would probably be lost to the metro- polis and go to Edinburgh ? — I am quite sure that /. J. that was Mr. Brown's intention ; I had it from Bennett, Esq. his own lips. 1226. Mr. Hardy.] Have you many intelligent 22 June persons of the working classes, who come to i860, examine the plants in the herbarium? — Not a great many, with the exception of gardeners. 1227. Mr. Turner.] "Who are the chief botanists in your district, among the working classes? — The weavers are specially addicted to floriculture, but I cannot say that many of the working classes study botany in London. 1228. Supposing you endeavoured to exhibit the entire collection of plants and botany, so that the student might from those which were exhi- bited have a general idea, if he wished to refer to any particular species he must go to the herbarium ? — We can hardly do that. The exhi- bition, is rather to show structure than to exhibit specific distinction. 1229. You do not show a general arrangement of plants ? — No ; such a thing would occupy a very large space, and even such an arrangement as that would only give a very general idea. Sir Roderick Impey Murchison, examined. 1230. Chairman.] YOU are the Director Ge- neral of the Geological Survey of the United Kingdom, including therein the Direction of the Practical Museum of Geology in Jermy*i-street ? —Yes. 1231. I think you have been the President of the Geological and the Royal Geographical So- cieties at different times ? — I have, upon several occasions ; and I am now a Yice-President of those bodies, and also of the Royal Society. 1232. Have you for many years taken an in- terest in the collections of the British Museum ? — Yes; for many years, I may say for 40 years, I have taken an interest in the collections. In the first peri©d of that time, shortly after I left the army, and had travelled in Italy, my attention was more given to the works of art in the British Museum ; but after the year 1822, and particularly in 1823 and 1824, when I began to study science seriously, my attention was more directed to the collections of natural history. 1233. Have you ever thought that the scientific collections were, until comparatively a late period, inadequately represented by the Board of Trus- tees? — Yes; as I became intimate with the Keepers of the Natural History Departments, and studied their collections, I perceived that they were not, in my opinion, adequately represented and pro- tected by the Board of Trustees. Perceiving also that there was only accidentally from time to time, a Trustee who might be said to represent natural history, my feeling respecting this want so aug- mented, that in the year 1848, when I was Presi- dent of the British Association for the Advance- ment of Science, I led the way in preparing a memorial, which was presented to Lord John Russell in the year 1848, the result of which was the appointment of that Royal Commission to which probably the Committee have had reference. If you will give me leave to refer to it, I may state that the Commission wound up its report in these words : " Now, in the event of a knowledge of natural history being in future recognised among the grounds for election to the trusteeship of the British Museum, we should have reason to antici- 0.96. pate that the sum allotted to this subject would sj r ft, j. be applied so efficiently and regularly to its ex- Murchison, tension and improvement as would best secure the progress of science, and yield most interest and instruction to the public. Deeply impressed with these sentiments, we beg to suggest, for the con- sideration of your Lordship, that steps should be taken to effect such an improvement in the con- stitution of the trust as shall render the manage- ment of the Natural History Departments of the British Museum, as far as possible, independent of the other divisions ; and on this point we would beg to refer your Lordship to the original plan of Sir Hans Sloane. In offering this suggestion, we do not contemplate a separation of the natural / history collections from the other departments of the British Museum, as we well know that the cultivation of natural science cannot be efficiently carried on without reference to an extensive library. What we chiefly desire to see is, the formation of such a responsible system of management as may satisfy the public and ourselves, that in this great national establishment the interests of all branches of natural science will be thoroughly protected and advanced, and that the halls devoted to it shall be so enriched with well selected and well classified objects of contemplation and comparison as shall not merely gratify the curiosity and excite the wonder of the multitude, but shall prove of real use to the researches of the student and the man of science." 1234. I suppose that was the principle upon which the British Association wished that the great natural history collection should be arranged by exhibiting " well selected and well classified objects of contemplation and comparison"? — Clearly so. 1235. You were a member of the Royal Com- mission which, in the years 1848-49, inquired into the whole state of the British Museum ? —I was. I may add that I was named one of that Commis- sion upon the suggestion of my friend Lord Ellesmere ; and that when I explained to him that in the first year of its sitting I should certainly be absent in exploring foreign countries as a geologist, n 3 he 102 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Sir R. I. ^0 still insisted on keeping me upon it, and there- Murchium. fore tlie c omm ittee will see that I took no part , in it during the first year of its sitting; but in i860 tnc secon d year I never missed a meeting ; and I signed the report, entirely coinciding with the opinion of the great majority of the gentlemen composing that Commission. 1236. When were you elected a Trustee of the British Museum? -In 1852. 1237. When were you placed upon the standing committee of the Trustees? — In the following year. 1238. Can you inform the Committee what steps have been taken since you have been one of the standing committee to afford better accommoda- tion for the display of the natural history collec- tion ? — I am not aware that any steps whatever have been taken since I have been a member of the trust, nor, as far I am aware, for many years before I came into it. I am aware of no steps which have been taken by the addition of rooms or real helps to the scientific departments of the in- stitution since I have been in the trust. 1239. Has the natural history sub-committee of the Trustees recommended since you have been in office certain changes and slight additions' to the present building ? — It was on the 18th of March 1857, that the Natural History Committee, consisting of Lord Wrottesley, then President of the Royal Society, Lord Cawdor, Sir Philip Egerton, Mr. William Hamilton, and myself, unanimously and urgently recommended certain additions to, and slight modifications in, the pre- sent building, with the construction of four small offices, which, if carried out, would, in the opinion of Professor Owen, the superintendent of the natural history collection, and the sub-com- mittee, have obviated for a good many years any requirements for additional space. I may observe that the standing committee adopted these re- commend' itions on the 22nd of January 1858, but on the 23rd of April of that year, the whole subject was set aside sine die by an official letter from the Treasury, which concluded with these words — " Until the general question of providing additional space, either by the transfer of any of the collecfions to some other place, or by the acquisition of additional land, as recommended by Mr. Smirke, shall have been considered by Her Majesty's Government." 1240. May I presume, then, that those were the reasons why all these improvements were im- peded ? — Yes ; I never heard any other reason assigned except that when we met as a body of Trustees, we were always assured that there was some great change in contemplation; that pro- bably there might be a removal of the natural history collections to Kensington, and until that great question of dismemberment was decided, no improvement would take place in the original building. 1241. Whilst, then, no modification or addition worthy of notice has taken place in the apart- ments containing the natural history collections within the last 10 or 20 years, can you inform the Committee what are the additions of new rooms, and improvements in other rooms which in the same time have been made in the Department of Art ? — I do not wish my statement to be taken as absolutely precise. Mr. Panizzi can give you more accurate information than I can upon it. In the Departments of Art, several rooms, besides the study to the Print Room, have been added to the Department of Antiquities. If you look to Plan No. 17 of the return of July 1858, you will see thai the following additions were made : the Second Graeco-Roman Saloon, the Third Graeco- Roman Saloon, the Grasco-Roman Basement be- low, the Lycean Gallery, the First Elgin Room, the Assyrian Basement passage and staircase, (this is used as a room for Assyrian sculptures, and is now filled with cases containing the Babylonian coffins), the Nimrod Side Gallery, the Kouyujick Gallery; and various additions have also been made to the Manuscript Departments. Of course I do not allude to the magnificent, useful, and admirable additions which have been made to the Library. I am merely now saying, with reference to art as contrasted with science, that there have been all those numerous additions, to say nothing of the temporary erection which Mr. Panizzi has been obliged to construct, and which has so de- faced the facade of the Museum. 1242. Are you of opinion that a museum for the proper illustration of sculpture requires more space than a well-arranged natural history museum? — It is quite plain that my answer must be that it cannot be otherwise. It is ob- vious that if no limit be placed upon the intro- duction of works of art, or rather if excavations to disinter all fragments of sculpture illustrative of each phase of ancient history, be encouraged and paid for by the nation, a city within or without our present metropolis will alone suffice for such a museum. Persons much better versed in art than I am should define what these limits ought to be ; it being well known that the chefs-d , ceuvres of the best periods of art, together with the coins of all ages, occupy a very small portion of the present buildings. On the other hand, the na- tural history collections, if arranged according to the proposals and opinions of the keepers of the departments of zoology, geology, botany, and mineralogy, might be so usefully adapted for public exhibition and the examination of natu- ralists, as would require no more extension of building than is easy of accomplishment in the environs of the present museum. Since I have been a Trustee of the British Museum there is not one resolution with respect to the improve- ment of the Art Departments which 1 have not cordially supported. I have invariably endea- voured to do every justice to those departments, and I never wish to stint them in any way ; but I must say this, that I think there should be some limit placed upon the enormous collections which may be brought into the country, through the love of some archaeologists for particular branches of their subject. 1243. Yom were, I think, one of a deputation of scientific men who presented a memorial to the Chancellor ot the Exchequer in 1858, praying that the British Museum might not be dismem- bered by the translation of the natural history collections to any distant locality ? — Yes. 1244. Do you still entertain the opinions which were expressed in that memorial, or have you other reasons to assign for wishing to keep to- gether the _ collections of art and science?— I entirely coincide still in every opinion that was expressed in that memorial, and I have since seen additional and stronger reasons for wishing that it should be supported. 1245. Do you believe, as is expressed in that memorial, that the natural history collections are the most popular collections with the inhabitants of the metropolis ?— I have not any doubt what- ever upon that point, if your question applies to the SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 103 the great masses of the people ; that is to say, of the middle and lower classes. I do not think it does apply to the higher classes, who, on the whole, love art more than natural history, and who live principally in the west end of London. 1246. Therefore, I presume that the middle classes, and the more intelligent of the working classes to whom you refer, would prefer a central situation for their favourite collections rather than a distant one ? — Unquestionably ; I cannot have the slightest doubt of it. If you will have the goodness, before this Committee closes its labours, to call any gentlemen connected with science, who live in the central, eastern, northern, and southern suburbs which surround the centre of London, you will hear what they say on that point. I know that the keeper of the zoology of the British Museum is decidedly of that opinion, and I have also always had reason to think that Professor Owen entertained decidedly the same opinion. 1247. Then you are of opinion that the great body of the middle classes, and the most intelli- gent of the working classes, would wish to retain the natural history collections in their present central position ? — I have no doubt of it. 1248. You are also of opinion that the scien- tific world would wish to retain, as far as you can gather their opinions, the collections of science and art together? — I believe that most of the cultivators of the science of natural history live around, or not far to the east, north, or south of the British Museum. 1249. Therefore, neither the public at large nor the scientific world, would be in favour of a trans- fer of the natural history collection to Kensington, in your opinion? — Certainly not. 1250. A third reason was advanced in that memorial which you signed, namely, that you consider that less expense would be involved by giving additional space to the natural history collections, in their present locality, than by building a new museum at Kensington; do you adhere to that opinion? — Yes, I do, upon the whole ; but I must explain that at that time I had not formed one of a sub-committee to inquire into the relative expense of the removal to Kensington, or of the extension of the British iVl useum in situ to the north, west, or east. When it was brought before us in evidence, that if we were largely to extend the British Museum at once in situ, and that as large a building were to be made in situ as might be made at Kensington, we then learned that the expense would be greater. But I have since seen good grounds to believe that by pur- chasing the ground rents, or the land, to the north, east, or west of the Museum, according to a plan which I believe has now been prepared and laid before the Members of the Committee, and avail- ing ourselves of the general power of enlargement, as was many years ago suggested, and as, in fact, intended by Mr. Smirke; under those circum- stances I believe that by a gradual expenditure pro re nata, the nation would be put to a much less expense for several years to come, and would, in the end, realise all those objects which it is the object of men of science to obtain. 1251. Then, supposing a scheme were enter- tained of progressively enlarging the existing Museum, by extending it upon the north, east, and west sides, according as the emergency arose, do you think that ground enough might be obtained to separate the collections of natural history from those of art, and yet leave them in 0.96. juxta-position, so as to render justice to both ? — I have no doubt about it. 1252. Will you be good enough to state to the Committee whether you have formed an idea of what should be the arrangement of a natural his- tory museum, as regards its exhibition to the people, and at the same time its instruction to the scientific students? — Referring to the opinion that was expressed by Professor Owen in the Report of the Commission ot 1835, I also have been and arn of opinion, that well-selected at>- tractive specimens, or, if you choose, types, should be alone displayed to the great mass of the people ; it being my decided opinion that the exhibition of every species in natural history can only bewilder the multitude. And I am further of opinion that it would be easy so to arrange any new buildings, as to have small gal- leries well adjusted for the examination of well packed, and consequently well preserved, speci- mens, for the instruction of the scientific student. 1253. You contemplate, I presume, by the ex- hibition of type specimens, a very liberal exhibi- tion to the public of everything calculated to instruct and fix distinctions upon their minds ? — Certainly ; that would be entirely left to Pro- fessor Owen and the keepers of natural history. They would, I have no doubt, make such selec- tions as would attract the public, and at the same time lead the younger portion of the lower and middle classes to ulterior and higher studies. 1254. Do you think that the exhibition of every species of bird, where the distinctions are so minute that they can hardly be appreciated, ex- cept by the closest investigation of the scientific inquirer, is calculated to instruct the public or to amuse them ; by the public I mean the ordinary spectator ? — I should think that the ordinary spectator would be most gratified by the exhibi- tion of beautiful and striking objects. I have un- derstood from ornithologists that many birds lose their colour very much when continually exposed, and that, therefore, they should be kept excluded from the light, so as to be examined by the student in natural history. 1255. As far as the scientific ornithologist is concerned, would he not infinitely prefer to have the specimens in boxes, where he could take them out, handle, examine, and compare them ? — I am not an ornithologist myself, and I would rather that Mr. Gould, or some person conversant in ornithology, should answer that question. 1256. Do you think that in such a national museum as the British Museum, the keepers of the different departments should deliver lectures on their several collections ? — Certainly not. 1257. Will you state your reasons to the Com- mittee why you think they should not ? — I have, in the course of my life, known a great number of men of science who have been, or might be, exceedingly good curators of museums, who would arrange museums in the best manner, and yet who would make very bad teachers or professors ; and therefore I do not wish to impose upon the enlightened men who are now keepers of the col- lections in the British Museum, duties which, I think, few of them are best calculated for, with one very remarkable and brilliant exception — I mean Professor Owen. I should, therefore, hope that' duties would not be imposed upon them which would derogate from that just employment of their time, by which they are able to keep the British Museum in its present state of excellence. 1258. You think that the delivery of lectures N 4 would Sir R. I. Murchiton. 104 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Sir R. I. would be incompatible with their present func- Murchison. tions ? — I think so, unquestionably. 1259. You think that danger might arise of 22 June gentlemen being chosen as keepers of departments 1 86o. on account of a presumed ability to deliver lec- tures, rather than from what you would conceive to be the requisites for the office to which I am alluding ? — I think the tendency might be to place a man in the office more from his power as a lecturer or professor than from his power of classi- fication. 1260. Do you think the same objection would apply to employing gentlemen not connected with the Museum, in .delivering a course of lectures in the British Museum, presuming that a theatre was erected? — No; if lectures are merely ac- cessory, and not made a real and essential part of the British Museum, it might be desirable if it were thought fit to extend the Museum largely to have a theatre and extra lecturers ; and this is, I believe, thought desirable by some of my friends in science ; but I confess that I do not myself see any great advantage in the arrangement. 1261. I presume, then, you look on the British Museum as a great repertory for reference ? — Just so, as a consulting dictionary. 1262. Are you acquainted with the nature and organization of the Museum of Natural History in Paris ; are not its collections illustrated by lectures ? — Yes, I have been acquainted with the Museum d'Histoire Naturelle for many years. I was best acquainted with it in the time of Cuvier. In his evidence given before the Royal Commission of 1848 on May 23d, Professor Owen offers a clear and detailed account of the government and constitution of the Jardin des Plantes at Paris, and quotes the words used in its organization by the Directory in 1793, which defines its object to be, " the advancement and teaching of the natural history sciences in all their branches, and in their application to the arts and manufactures." Now, what I wish the Committee to understand is, that this noble establishment of the Jardin des Plantes was not originally set up (two centuries ago) as a museum. It was founded as a school of instruction for the general public, as illustrated by certain col- lections. In this respect the Jardin des Plantes differs as essentially in its origin as it does now, from what the British Museum has been or is, and I do not therefore think that we can draw any just conclusions as to what the natural history establishments maybe broughtup to in this country from any acquaintance whatever with the Jardin des Plantes in Paris. But in order to convey an idea of the system followed out and practised in the grand and comprehensive French establish- ment, I would here quote some parts of a letter recently addressed to me at my request by one of the most eminent of its professors, and who, like many of his associates, is a member of the In- stitute. 1263. Sir G. Grey.~\ Do you put that in as contrasting the object of the Jardin des Plantes with what you conceive to be the object of the British Museum ? — I do so, because there have been frequent references to the superior manner in which these things are managed in Paris to what they are in our own country. Allow me to say, that after going through the whole of the details of the Museum d'Histoire Naturelle, these are the parts of the letter which may be considered most worthy of being read, " There being no examination of pupils, no diplomas or degrees are given. These are granted by the various faculties of science, whether the faculty of Paris, or the faculties of science of 15 other cities. The students are not divided into first and second classes, all the students being simply free auditors who enter into no obligation. Nor does the professor bind himself, though he is always ready to answer questions. Occasionally, but very rarely, a student offers to assist the professors, assistants, andpreparateurs, in arranging the collections. No essential change has been made in the organization of the Museum since 1793 ; nor have the recom- mendations of the Commissioners of 1850 and 1857 been acted upon ; although in each of the reports of these Commissioners very considerable changes were recommended, and strongly urged (see the report of the Commissioners of 1850)." On this last head my eminent friend thus wrote to me in answer to my inquiries, " Among some good proposals of the Commissioners, there were many that could not be carried out, and which it was supposed would have a very bad effect. Such, for example, was the notion of separating the duties of the keeper or custos from those of the professor, a plan which would have de- prived the most distinguished men (professors) in each department of the control of the specimens, which are essential for their teaching and their studies. The idea of placing a permanent direc- tor at the head of the Museum instead of the collective administration of the professors, has always prevailed in these commissions ; but I believe that it would be injurious to the Museum, for these reasons. First, on account of the dif- ficulty, if not impossibility, of finding a suitable person. Secondly, because any one individual would give too special a direction to one branch of natural history, whilst in our administration the different interests are so balanced, that no one branch can be developed to the detriment of another. What is really wanted in the Museum is the grant of larger funds. Our budget, of which I send you a resume, is not sufficient for a whole establishment like this, which comprehends a botanical garden, a zoological menagerie, lec- tures and laboratories on physics, chemistry, &c. As to the teaching which takes place, it is, I think, the natural consequence of the very origin of the Museum, which was founded two centuries ago in opposition to the faculty of medicine, and not as a natural history museum. In an estab- lishment essentially founded as a museum in virtue of its collections, I think that the teaching should be accessory only, in order to render the collec- tions more useful, and chiefly as demonstrating the character of any newly acquired remarkable specimens." This statement, combined with what I have myself seen of the working of the profes- sorships in the Jardin des Plantes from the days of Cuvier to our own time, and also what has been said by others, has led me to form the opinion that the French plan is not really appli- cable to this country; the genius of which, as well as our academical education and mode of instruction, being so different to those of France. I think it is quite out of the question to suppose that at any time, we either can or ought to endeavour to realise the project of a system like that of the Jardin des Plantes at Paris. 1264. Chairman.'] With regard to the Jardin des Plantes, are you aware that two commissions of inquiry have been appointed within the last 10 years to report on the mode adopted? — Yes, I hold in my hand a copy of one of those reports. 1265. Are those reports favourable or adverse ? —When SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 105 — When the present Emperor was President of the Republic, he was of opinion, as I understood, that the Jardin des Plantes, though it is unquestion- ably under the management of the most eminent men of science in France, was capable of great improvement, and he urged the appointment of a special commission of inquiry. A copy of the first of these reports (1850), which I hold in my hand, shows that the members composing that commis- sion were very distinguished men, viz., Hericart de Thury, President, the other members being Charles Deville, Boussingault, Corne-Gaudi- chaud, F. Genin, Isidore Geoffroy de St. Hilaire, de Lafrenaye. Michelin, Antoine Passy and de Verneuil. M. Dumas also took part in the earlier meetings, until he was named Minister of Agriculture and Commerce. Including a great number of proposed changes, the chief recom- mendations were, that the collective administra- tion of the professors (each of whom is president in rotation) should be abolished, and that a supreme director should be appointed under the title of directeur conservateuv. This officer was to be chosen by the President of the Republic from a double list of candidates proposed by the Academy of Sciences and the Superior Council of Public Instruction. The teaching was to be converted from its present free, popular, and ad libitum character, into courses of obligatory in- struction, with due examination of registered pupils, who after three years might take out diplomas. I may add, that the professors were to be appointed by the President of the Republic from lists sent in by the general assembly of the professors, and the Academy of Sciences, and were to furnish annually detailed accounts of the progress of their departments, the additions, desi- derata, &c. ; which accounts were to be published in a volume for circulation throughout the public educational establishments of France. Thus, in 54 articles divided under the three heads of adminis- tration, teaching and retirement (with pensions), every duty was prescribed. 1266. Then it was proposed to abolish voluntary lectures ? — To abolish the voluntary lectures, and to render the Museum d'Histoire Naturelle a school of real teaching, by the examination and registration of pupils. Now, no professor is ne- cessarily acquainted with any pupil who comes to his lecture room ; women, children, and anybody going there who pleases. 1267. Has any change been made in conse- quence in the Jardin des Plantes ? — None what- ever; both the reports, though very stringent, have failed in producing any change. 1268. From your acquaintance with foreign museums, as well as the British Museum, have you formed any opinion as to the best system of control in the administration of such an establish- ment ? — I think that as good a system of control as could be devised was that which was recom- mended by the Royal Commission, of which I was a member. I have not gone from that opinion, but seeing the constitution of the trust, and know- ing well the able and intelligent men who compose it, I think that by some modifications and im- provements the present trust is a good safeguard between the public and the men of science and art, who would naturally wish to increase their collections. I may add, that I think a consider- able improvement may be made in the working of the sub-committees of the Trustees of the Mu- seum ; I think that the sub-committees should meet more frequently, and that they should pre- 0.96. i860. pare, in conjunction with the superintendent and Sir R. I. the four keepers of the natural history collections, Murchison. all the business which they ought to transact, for " the sanction of the composite or standing com- -- llu mittee. 1269. Do you consider that the keepers should be present when the business of their departments is being transacted at the Board of Trustees 1 — I should think it very desirable that the superin- tendent should be a regular attendant, that the keepers should occasionally be present at the meetings of the sub-committees, and that they all should have a voice, but not a vote. 1270. Mr. ffalpole.'j Have not the sub-committee now the power of meeting, upon a proper notice being given, and suggesting to the Standing Com- mittee anything with reference to the particular matter which is submitted to them? — Certainly they have. 1271. Have they not also the power of re- questing or requiring the attendance of the keepers of the departments with reference to whose sub- jects they are called upon to meet ? — Surely. 1272. Then your suggestion, I think, is rather improved regulations in that respect than any ex- tended power which the Trustees may require ? — My recommendation is to this effect, that the work of the Natural History Committee should be regular and more frequent, and that this work should precede the general business of the Stand- ing Committee, in order that the subjects which many members of the Standing Committee take little interest in, should not be discussed and time lost, when the matter might be prepared before- hand by the Natural History Committee. 1273. It is in the power of the Standing Com- mittee to make regulations for jcarrying your suggestions into effect if they should think it ad- visable to adopt them ? — I want to have a more independent action, that we should be more left to ourselves as to what we think right to bring before the Standing Committee, and then we hope that our voices and claims would be more at- tended to. 1274. Probably what you would wish is, that the Standing Sub-committee also should meet more frequently than they do upon the specific subjects which are under their immediate care ? — I do. 1275. But no additional powers are required by Act of Parliament to enable the Standing Com- mittee to institute those new regulations by means of which your suggestions would be carried into effect?— No. 1276. Sir Philip Egerton.~\ You, wish, in short, that the Sub-committee should originate matters, instead of only considering the matters referred to by the Standing Committee ? — Yes. 1277. Sir G. Grey.~\ Is not that matter of mere internal arrangement, which the Standing Com- mittee have power now to adopt if they think it expedient? — I understand it to be so. My opinion is, that we should be brought more into action if my suggestion were adopted, and that we should then initiate good measures. 1278. Sir P. Egerton.~\ Has any gentleman who is connected with, or takes an interest in, scientific matters been appointed a Trustee since your appointment in 1852? — I am not aware of any such appointment. 1279. How many Trustees have been elected since your election ? — I am not aware of the elec- tion of any nobleman or gentleman in this list O who, io6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 22 June i860. who, since my election in 1852, can be said to be a man of science, 1280. Sir G. Grey.] Who have been the Trustees appointed since 1852 ? — I)ean Milman, Lord John Russell, Mr. Gladstone, Sir George Lewis, Mr. Walpole, Lord Eversley, Mr. Grote, and Lord Taunton. 1281.. Sir P. Egerton.] If that be so, how would you constitute such a Sub-committee of Natural History out of the presentbody of Trustees as would be satisfactory to scientific men? — I think if Sir P. Egerton would attend, and if we get the assistance of Sir Benjamin Brodie, and the President of the College of Physicians, as well as of Lord Cawdor, that we should work well, and do the business effectively. But I also think three or four too small a number in this great trust, in which a triple subdivision has been talked of — letters, art, and science. I do think that out of 15, we ought, at least, to have five Trustees in the standing committee, who, if not deeply versed in science, should have a real love for it, and who have taken a deep interest in it. I may add, that I do not think it probable, under the present system of election of Trustees, that we should get in, but on very rare occasions, men of science, because letters and art are so much more cultivated by the higher classes in this country than natural history ; and the highest classes are the electors. It is, therefore, quite natural that men distinguished in letters and art should chiefly be chosen. I only hope that my little hint may influence the body of noblemen and gentlemen who have the power of selecting Trustees, and that they may place, from time to time, a man of science in this trust, as, for ex- ample, Lord Wrottesley, who, when he vacated the chair of the Royal Society, ceased to be a Trustee. 1282. Mr. Walpole.] May I not ask you, leav- ing out your own name, whether such men as Sir Benjamin Brodie and Sir Philip Egerton have not always, very properly, great weight in the deliberations of the Standing Committee upon any subject connected with science ? — No doubt about it. Your question comes after this, that a Natural History Committee was to take the initi- ative in proposing measures. I said that my two friends, to whom you have alluded, would, with a third, make an excellent sub-committee at any time, but that their presence cannot always be calculated upon, because Sir P. Egerton is usually absent in winter, and we want at least two more Trustees to represent our interest in the Standing Committee. [The President of the College of Physicians, who is a Trustee, has not been placed in the Standing Committee.] 1283. Chairman.] You have had considerable opportunities of making yourself acquainted with the opinion of eminent foreigners upon the sub- ject of the dismemberment of the collections, have you not ? — I have. 1284. Can you give the Committee any in- formation upon that subject? — The Chairman here stated that he was obliged to leave to be examined as a wit- ness upon another Committee, and requested Mr. Y^alpole to take the Chair during hi? absence. Having travelled a good deal, I have been, of course, acquainted with men of science, I may say, of all countries, and I never heard from them but one expression, and that of admiration, of th*e natural history collections of the British Museum. On the subject which more imme- diately interests this Committee, or the object for which you are called together, that is, as to whether transference to another locality should take place, I thought it right to ask M. de Ver- neuil, one of my intimate friends, one of the Frenchmen, of all others, whom I most admire and love (for I have travelled through various countries with him, and he is a person upon whose integrity and opinions I place the firmest reliance, and who knows England thoroughly), and he sent me this letter. I now hand in the original. "Paris, Dimanche, 17 Juin 1860. " Mon cher ami, "J'apprends qu'il est question de demembrer le British Museum, trop resserre dans ses limites actuelles, et de transporter dans un local eloigne toutes les collections d'histoire naturelle. " Permettez-moi de vous exprimer les profonds regrets que me feroit eprouver une pareille reso- lution. Tel qu'il existe, le British Museum est un monument unique au monde que nous vous envions, et dont la conservation interesse votre gloire nationale, aussi bien que les sciences que nous cultivons. Reunir en un seul faisceau les productions de la nature et les chefs-d'oeuvre de l'art ; montrer a cote de ce que Dieu a fait ce que l'homme peut faire ; associer l'idee du beau a. celle du vrai, le monde de notre imagination au monde reel, c'est la sans doute une grande et noble con- ception, dont il ne faut pas s'ecarter, et qui a tout pris je voudrais que l'on completat. " Chez nous il n'existe rien de semblable. Le Louvre et le Museum d'Histoire Naturelle sont separes. Le Louvre est pres, le Museum et loin ; qu'en resulte-t-il ? qu'on va souvent admirer les statues et les tableaux, et qu'on delaisse l'histoire naturelle. Vous seriez etonne de l'ignorance qui regne a. cet egard dans nos classes les plus eleves, et vous pouvez e"tre certain, que si en Angleterre les sciences naturelles sont plus popu- lates que chez nous, c'est a l'influence du British Museum qu'il fait attribuer en partie cet heureux resultat. Les travaux et les voyages que nous avons executes ensemble, et tout recemment l'honneur que m'a fait la Societe Royale en me pla^ant au nombre de ses membres, ont aug- ments encore le devouement que j'ai toujours porte a la gloire scientifique de 1' Angleterre, et c'est a, ce titre que je viens loyalement vous exprimer le prix que j'attache a. la conservation et au developpement de votre grand et mag- nifique etablissement de Russell-street. Je sou- vien encore de l'admiration qu'il inspirait a Agassiz, et plus anciennement a, Cuvier, et je ne saurois trop vous engager a. faire tous vos efforts pour le maintenir dans son integrity, tacher qu'il se developpe la ou il est ne, et ou il a trouve jusqu'a ce jour les conditions de sa prosperity. Abattez des maisons, et faites lui de la place. Mais, me direz vous, c'est la le noeud de la dif- ficulte. Les collections d'histoire naturelle s'accroissent chaque jour, et sont destinees a s'ac- croitre encore ; il faut, done, leur preparer de vastes galeries. Sans doute, la place qu'elles exigent est considerable, aussi chez nous. Les col- lections de notre Museum couvrent environ un hectare, et sont trop a l'etroit. Mais un bon systeme d'arrangement pourrait reduire de beau- coup cet emplacement. II suffirait d'avoir, comme dans les collections privies, des meubles, a tiroirs [superposes, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 107 superposes. Les tiroirs vitres ou grilles seroient aussi mobiliers que les livres d'une bibliotheque, et mis, cornme eux, sur des tables a la disposition de ceux qui voudroient les etudier. On ne laisseroit en vue dans les armoires que les grands objets, les specimens remarquables ou curieux, qui frap- pent 1'iniagination du vulgaire, et eveillent dans les jeunes esprits le desir d'etudier les produits et les lois de la nature. " J'espere, mon cher ami, que pour venir par dela le canal de la manche, mon intervention dans ce debat ne vous paroitra pas indiscrete. Vous connoissez mes sentimens, et vous n'y verrez qu'une preuve de plus de l'interet que je porte a votre pays, a ses grands etablissemens scientifiques, et a son influence dans les travaux qui font la gloire et l'honneur de l'humanite. " Je vous serre la main, et vous prie de croire a mon inalterable amitie. Tout a vous. " Ed. de Verneuil, Membre de l'Institut Imperiale de France, et de la Societe Royale d'Angleterre." With the permission of the Committee, I will read the translation : — " Paris, 17 June 1860. " My dear Friend, " I learn that the British Museum being too confined within its present limits, there is a ques- tion of removing all its natural history collections to a distant locality. "Permit me to express to you the profound regret which such a resolution would make me feel. The British Museum, as it now stands, is a monument unique in the world, which we envy you the possession of, and the preservation of which concerns at the same time your national flory and the sciences which we cultivate. To ring together in a single assemblage the produc- tions of nature and the chefs-d'oeuvre of art ; to exhibit alongside of what God has made that which man can make; to associate the idea of the beautiful with that of the true, the world of our imagination with the real world, is doubtless a grand and noble conception, which should not be abandoned, and which at any cost I should wish to see completed. In our country nothing similar exists. The Louvre and the Museum of Natural History, are, as you know, separated. The Louvre is near at hand, the museum is distant, and the result is that many go to see statues and pictures, whilst natural history is comparatively neglected. You would be surprised at the igno- rance which prevails in this respect among our higher classes, and you may be assured that if in England the natural history sciences are more popular than with us, you may in part attribute the happy result to the influence of the British Museum. " The labours and the travels that we have undertaken together, and the honour the Royal Society of London has done me by enrolling me in the number of its members, has augmented the devotion which I have always borne towards the scientific glory of England, and it is on this ground that I come forward honestly to express the value I attach to the conservation and de- velopment of your great and magnificent estab- lishment in Bloomsbury. " I well recollect the admiration with which it inspired Agassiz, and formerly Cuvier himself; and I cannot urge you too strongly to make every effort to maintain the establishment in its integritv. Endeavour to have it extended where 0.96." it originated, and where, up to this day, it has met with all those conditions which have ensured its prosperity — remove houses and make room for it. But you will tell me that this is just the difficult point. The natural history collections are increasing, and will increase, and it is neces- sary to prepare large galleries to receive them. Doubtless, the space which they require is con- siderable, for with us also our natural history col- lections, which cover little more than a hectare of ground, are also too much confined. " But a good system of arrangement would much diminish the space required in either case. As in private collections, cases with tiers of superposed drawers should be made use of. These drawers, whether glazed or otherwise, would be as movable as the books in a library, and could like them be placed on tables for the examination of those who wished to study the specimens. The larger objects, and the most attractive and curious specimens, need only be exhibited ; those, in short, which strike the ima- gination of the people, and awaken in young minds the desire to study the products and the laws of nature. " I hope, my dear friend, that by crossing the Channel to mingle in this discussion, I may not appear indiscreet. You know my opinions, and you will recognise in them only a further proof of the interest I take in your country, in its great scientific establishments, and its influence on enterprises, which are the glory and honour of humanity. " Ever yours, (signed) Ed. de Verneuil, Member of the Imperial Institute of France, and of the Royal Society of London." Mr. Gregory here returned, and resumed the Chair. 1285. Sir G. Grey.] Are you able to state to the Committee the comparative extent of the natural history collections in Paris and in the British Museum ?— I cannot give you the exact relative proportion, but as stated already, all the natural history collections in that vast extent of more than 70 acres do not cover more than a hectare and a half, or three pr four acres of the ground. 1286. Does the natural history collection of Paris approach at all in its extent the natural history collection of the British Museum? — I should say that it is not in many respects so good ; but Professor Owen would be a more pro- per person to give you that answer than myself. The professors of the Jardin des Plantes com- plain, I believe, of the loss of time in having to derange their collections in order to give lectures, and of the trouble of replacing their specimens, which are occasionally injured, and also of the loss of time. 1287. Will you be good enough to state more precisely to the Committee what you consider the object of the British Museum to be ? — I con- ceive the British Museum to be a great national establishment, in which the public may see ail the striking objects and great groups of nature, but in which that public should not be bewildered by the exhibition of every species. At the same time I think the Museum should contain con- sulting galleries for the examination of the real students in natural history. 1288. An allusion is made in the letter which you have just read to an arrangement existing in several private collections ; do you think you can 2-i— institute Sir R.I. Murchison. 'ii June 1860. io8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Sir F. I. Murchison. 22 June i860. institute a just comparison between private col- lections and collections like the British Museum, with respect to the arrangement which is neces- sary in order to satisfy the objects of the Mu- seum ? — To a great extent I think you can. 1289. Are those private collections intended for the purposes of general instruction and amuse- ment? — I apprehend that what Monsieur de Ver- neuil meant was, that the small specimens which cannot be examined by the public at large should be deposited in glass cases, whether in drawers under the glass cases, or in galleries separated from the gaze of the public. With regard to mineralogy, palaeontology, and other branches of science, there are many objects which cannot be examined without a magnifying glass, and which it is perfectly useless to exhibit, but which are highly instructive to a naturalist who wishes to examine them in detail. 1290. Supposing the same principle may be adopted in the British Museum as is adopted in a private collection, do you think that in its appli- cation it may be carried to the same extent in the British Museum, as it may be in a private collection ? — Certainly not. 1291. You stated just now that you would recommend a very liberal exhibition of type speci- mens ? — Certainly. 1292. What additional space do you think would be necessary to exhibit the natural history collections, properly in the British Museum, adopt- ing the principle that there shall be a very liberal exhibition of type specimens ? — I think without going into very accurate details, that there will be ample ground within the reach of the public in a very limited space of time, and at a compa- ratively small cost, to extend the natural history collections so that you might fully carry out the two objects to which I have alluded 1293. Do you refer to any of those plans which have been laid before Parliament for the exten- sion of the present site?— I know that Mr. Smirke has one plan, and that Professor Mas- kelyne and Mr. Waterhouse have prepared ano- ther plan. Professor Owen has also drawn up a very large plan, which, as it involves the exhibi- tion of every specimen, would of course, if carried out to the full extent, embarrass us very much if we are to continue in our present position. With all deference to the opinion of so eminent a man, I am of the opinion of the other keepers of the natural history departments, who do not think that such a detailed exhibition of individual ob- jects is necessary. Agreeing with their opi- nions, but judging for myself, and knowing the ground that is occupied by gardens to the north, to the east, and to the west of our present build- ing, I see no difficulty in that gradual extension pro re nata of the natural history collections, and indeed of all the collections, so as to enable us to keep the whole of the works of nature and art together in their present position. 1294. In giving that opinion, do you take into account the probable increase of the natural his- tory collections?—! do. 1295. When you speak of obtaining the ground pro re nata, do you mean that you would gradu- ally purchase new ground adjoining the present site of the Museum ? — Yes, I should purchase as soon as possible the ground rents of all the area defined in the plans. I should let the houses until I wanted them, and I suppose that by the powers of Parliament we should be entitled to extend our Museum as the leases fell in. 1296. Do you recommend that the whole of the ground should be immediately purchased which would be ultimately necessary for the building of the Museum, or do you contemplate a pro- gressive purchase of land ? — I think it would be better to purchase the ground, as far as possible, because in the end I think it would be good economy. You would have a very good rent for your money over the larger part of the ground, and you would extend your building, as I said, pro re nata. 1297. You spoke of the comparatively small expense which would be incurred by these exten- sions; have you formed an estimate, or do you concur in the estimates which have been laid before the Committee, as to the price of the ground which would be required? — I was one of the committee who reported upon the subject? 1298. You spoke of the removal of the natural history to a distant locality ; assuming it to be placed in a central position, easily accessible to the great body of visitors, would you then object to its removal from the same building in which the other collections are retained ? — 1 object to its entire removal from our present buildings, because I wish, for the honour, and, I may say, the glory of our country, to maintain the conser- vation of so great and magnificent a scheme as that which is so ably alluded to in the letter of Monsieur de Verneuil which I have just read, and which embraces all my sentiments upon the subject. 1299. Would the extension which you have now spoken of be amply sufficient, in your opinion, for all the collections of the British Museum ? — Yes, as far as I am capable of judging, provided, as I stated in the previous part of my evidence, you put some limit upon the excavation of ancient towns, and the bringing of the debris of large ancient cities into the centre of London. 1300. Tn whom would you vest the discretion as to that limit to be placed upon the reception of additional articles of art ? — I think the Trustees, as far as I am capable of judging, even those who most love art, and particularly those who are the best judges of the finest Greek art, are by no means desirous that these enormous additions should be made. 1301. You think, acting on the principle on which the present Trustees are likely to act, that the extension which you have proposed, would be amply sufficient for the reception of all the addi- tional articles of art which may be received into the British Museum?— I again say, that, as far as I am capable of judging, I think so. 1302. Sir P. Egerton.] Do you think that the liberality of the public in the way of presents and bequests would be more likely to be exercised if the_ collections were kept together in one great national institution, than if they were dismem- bered, and placed in different localities?— I have no doubt, from what I have already said, that the public at large looking to the British Museum as this great, unique, and glorious monument, have much more pride in sending an object of real value to it. I am quite sure that it would operate in my own mind. I have a colossal vase of Si- berian Aventurine, which the Emperor of Russia gave me in recognition of my labours in deve- loping the geological structure of Russia, which is the admiration of many people. I should like to bequeath that vase, and will bequeath it, to the British Museum ; but if the British Museum is SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. ioq is to be broken up, I fairly say that I should alter my will. 1303. Sir G. Grey.] Would it influence you in that munificent bequest, if the natural history collections were placed in a separate building from the collection of art? — I should then have to judge whether that natural history collection car- ried out all my objects and wishes ; and my pride in seeing the union of natural history and art (which union is admirably illustrated in my vase), being done away with, one great object that I should have in bequeathing the best thing I possess to the united Museum, would be taken from me. 1304. Chairman.] Is it not a natural subject for national pride, to have the finest collections in the world, taking them in their entirety, , united round the finest library in the world, both as regards its volumes and its accommodation ? — Unquestionably. That is perhaps one of the strongest reasons men of science have adduced for the conservation of the Museum in its entirety. We cannot consent to be separated from the great national library 1305. Do you not think, therefore, that persons would be influenced in their bequests from the grandeur of the institution to which they were going to bequeath different articles ? — Certainly, I do think so. 1306. And that they would be more likely to bequeath to a great institution of this kind than they would to separate collections ? — I have no doubt of it. 1307. Does the printed document, entitled, " A few Reasons why the British Museum should be preserved in its Ancient Integrity, as by Law established," express your sentiments generally ? —Yes. 1308. How do you reconcile the title of that document and the present government of the in- stitution with the part of the concluding para- graph which, in favouring separation without removal, adverts to a triple administration ; what do you exactly mean by this divided administration in one establishment ? I will read the passage. " The public, whose interests are, in fact, most deeply concerned, will probably prefer the middle • course, and will concur with the sentiments above expressed in favour of separation without re- moval ; of a distinct administrative separation of the three series of collections, the natural history, the antiquarian, and the bibliographical, so that each may form a department entire in itself, but contiguous to the others, the great reading room and library forming the nucleus and centre of union for the whole " ? — A great " library, form- ing the nucleus and centre of union for the whole," is of course the basis in support of my argument for keeping the Museum together ; but in reference to what is meant by a separate admi- nistration, different persons may have different opinions. I have already explained, to a great extent, what I mean by " separate administra- tion ;" that is, the giving of more power to the sub-committees to carry out their objects, and to pre-arrange their business for the confirmation of the Standing Committee. 1309. Do you mean by " separate administra- tion," to make the head of each of the three depart- ments supreme in that department, and to convert the Trustees into a consultative rather than a de- liberative Board ; is that your opinion ? — Not to that extent. My opinion is, that the officer at the head of each division of the Museum should 0.96. have more real influence, by acting continuously with the sub-committees, and that the sub- committees should be called into more vigorous action, as I have before said. 1310. Do you think it would be advisable for the interest of science and art, that the gentlemen who are keepers of the different departments should be occasionally sent to inspect different foreign collections, and to report on those collec- tions to the Trustees ? — Certainly. 1311. You think that would be desirable? — Yes. 1312. Mr. Lowe.] You have stated that you consider that the object of the British Museum is to combine all the striking objects and great groups of nature ; how far do you think it at pre- sent realises that object in your own department of natural history ? — In the Zoological Depart- ment, according to the opinion of Dr. Gray, there are many things which are exhibited that might not bf, at least I understood him to say so to my- self ; but I do not know whether he has given it in evidence. I do not think that in the Geological and Mineralogical Departments there are a great many objects exhibited which could be set aside. 1313. Are they all exhibited which ought to be, or anything like it, in your department of palaeontology ? — I think there is certainly a great call for extension of space in palaeontology. 1314. What is your view on that point; do you contemplate it would be desirable to exhibit skeletons of many of the ancient animals which have lived upon this earth ? — Certainly, of all the most remarkable. 1315. There is only one now, I think, called the mastodon? — There are several other large animals. 1316. In the plan which you contemplate for enlarging the Museum, do you take into con- sideration these animals; do you think you will have room to exhibit these animals properly? — Professor Owen will answer that question much better than I can as to the very large and com- plete animals in existence which can be had from other parte of the world ; but of a great many of those large animals you can only procure small portions, which do not require great space. 1317. You do not anticipate that we shall be able, if we have the space, to procure a great number of these large animals ? — I beg to say that I am of opinion that we ought to have considerably more space for that branch of the Natural History Department. I do say that there should be con- siderable additions to the Mammalian and Osteolo- gical Saloons, but I also think that those additions are readily procurable in the environs of the British Museum. 1318. You think that the expense of that would not be too great for such a purpose ? — Just so. 1319. Sir Philip Egerton. ] Supposing that sky- lights were put into the palasontological galleries, and that the table cases containing the minerals were removed into other galleries, that would give space for a large assemblage of fossil ani- mals? — Certainly; and, in fact, that was what the Natural History Committee did call for. In the year 1858 we called for the opening of central lights in several rooms, and by lighting the objects from above, we would have gained the whole of the north face of that long gallery, where many of the large objects could have been well exhibited. We also called for the erection of a gallery above the birds, where a great number of specimens might be consulted, O 3 not Sir R.I. Murchison* 22 June i860. 1 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Sir R. 1. not by the public at large, but by the students in Murctiison. natural history, where they might have access to them quietly, whilst the people were walking 22 June below amongst the birds and shells. We called i860. f or the erection of four small studies, which would have enabled us to liberate a gallery, which has been built at some expense, and which' is filled with beautiful natural history objects, palasonto- logical and osteological, from which the public are now entirely excluded. The difficulty that is now offered to the proper examination by the students of the several objects in the collections might thus have been obviated for many years to come, if the recommendations of the Natural History Committee, which were approved of by the Standing Committee, had not been rejected by the Treasury. 1320. Mr. Puller.] You were on the committee that investigated the question of the removal of the collections to Kensington ? — Yes. 1321. The Trustees made a report to that com- mittee ? — Yes. 1322. Have you considered, if a new site were to be purchased, how many acres of ground ought to be purchased with a view to future extensions of the collections, supposing the whole natural history collection were transferred to Kensington, and you were limited to purchase a new site at Kensington ; in providing for the next century to come, how many acres would it be necessary at once to secure, so that it might not be built upon by other parties ? — The answer to that question cannot be given without you will first determine the principle of classification and the amount of exhibition. If Professor Owen's prin- ciple of exhibiting everything as far as possible be adopted, of course a very much larger space (I cannot pretend to say how much now) would be required : I have no doubt that, under those cir- cumstances, the plan which Professor Owen has laid before the public will be called for. But if restricted, the plan, which many persons have advocated, and which I am of opinion would meet all the wants of the mass of the nation and the objects of men of science, were adopted, then I think that the space could be well calculated, and that that space which we have the means of ac- quiring in the immediate environs of the British Museum is quite adequate for the purpose. 1323. Would the same space be sufficient at Kensington as would be sufficient in the vicinity of the British Museum, having regard to the fact that all that block is surrounded by streets, which would not probably be the case at Kensington, you would have to provide space in addition to that which would be thus covered by the build- ing ; would you not require a much larger space at Kensington, so as to secure proper light and access? — I am not exactly acquainted with the ground which the Natural History collections might obtain, if they were transferred to Ken- sington. Looking at it in a general way, and, as far as I understand the question, the larger por- tion by far of the ground at Kensington is to be occupied by the new Horticultural Gardens of the society to which I belong myself, and which is likely to be a fine and instructive establishment. 1324. I think you have expressed your view that the desirable mode of disposing of the col- lections is to have certain type specimens exhibited to the general public, and then galleries for the examination of specimens by scientific persons; in speaking of scientific persons do you include all those persons who go to improve themselves, such as young men who are students, or only distinguished men of science ? — No, only students ; all those who really wish to be instructed. 1325. Would such persons have facilities for knowing what specimens there were in the drawers? — I have no doubt that the keepers of each de- partment would afford all the advantages re- quired. 1326. Is there not a considerable class of per- sons who go to the Museum to improve themselves, and who attend there almost every day? — Not that number which would create any insurmounfa able difficulties. 1327. It would be a considerable additional tax upon the time of the curators ? — It would certainly be so to some extent; and might require here and there an additional sub-curator or attendant. 1328. And it would also require additional servants to bring the specimens to the studies ?— - Yes, to a limited extent. 1329. Would you say that stadents ought to be allowed to take the specimens out of the drawers, and handle them themselves?— Only under the direction, and in the presence of a keeper or his delegate. 1330. Sir G. Grey.~\ How could you draw any distinction between students and other visitors; could you preclude any person from seeing the objects that were packed up in cases if they asked to see them ? — The very question which such a person would put, for example, to Professor Owen, Dr. Gray, Mr. Waterhouse, Mr. Maskelyne, or Mr. Bennet, or whoever might be then at the head of a department, would at once show whe- ther he really understood the subject sufficiently to be worthy of having a box unpacked or a drawer pulled out to have the specimens shown to him. I am not supposing that all the spe- cimens are to be packed away so as not to be accessible, but that they are to be so arranged as to be easily inspected. 1331. You would leave the discretion to be exercised by the keeper, as to whether he would show any of these objects to the visitors who might ask to see them ? — Yes. 1332. Mr. Puller.'] We have been told that there are many very intelligent working men who come to the Museum, not merely to gaze, but to improve themselves ; do you think that such men would be likely to make the same advantageous use of the Museum, if a larger proportion of the specimens were shut up in drawers? — I have spoken of those specimens being shut up which could not be examined from their small size. May I ask to which department of natural history you now allude ? 1333. I did not allude to anyone in particular; but suppose we take the birds and insects ? I feel perfectly certain that there is no keeper of the British Museum, or any of their assistants, who would not be willing to attend to anv intel- ligent working man. 1334. My question referred rather to the feeling of the working man ; would he be so likely to go to the curator, to ask questions and have drawers pulled out to show him the things, as he is to go round and look at the objects in the cases where they are exhibited? — I apprehend that the working man, who has become so advanced in natural history as to require more than that which he sees in the open cases, would be a person of that intelligence that he ought to be attended to, and would obtain attention ; but I believe that the number of persons so advanced as SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. Ml as to really require that additional and minute information to which you advert, is not' large 1335. Chairman.'] Would not the fact of his applying to the keeper to see any of these collec- tions be of great use to him, inasmuch as the keeper of that particular object which he was anxious to obtain information upon would be able to instruct him and give him assistance ? — Yes. 1336. Therefore it would be rather to his ad- vantage than otherwise to apply to the keeper to show him any object which was contained in the drawers, than merely seeing it exhibited in a case ? — Clearly ; the man who really has a desire to push his studies beyond the point to which the great masses of the working classes attain would be the very person to whom it would be most desirable to exhibit the specimens contained in the drawers. 1337. Lord Stanley.] You do not think that applications of that kind would be so numerous as to cause inconvenience to the curators? — Certainly not. 1338. Mr. Hardy.] It was stated the other day that the working classes principally apply them- selves to entomology ; does it come within your knowledge that that is the fact ? — Dr. Gray has always said so. 1339. With respect to insects, they are exhi- bited very much as you have described, that is, a i860. very small proportion are exhibited, and a great Sir R. I. number of them are packed in drawers ? — Yes. Murchison. 1340. Sir George Grey.] Is it the case that a great number of the working classes ask to see 2 f a ^" ne those insects which are in the drawers? — Dr. Gray has stated that he knows of — I do not know how many collections among the middle and lower classes in London. I am not an entomologist, and I cannot precisely answer the question. I should think the question had better be answered by the keeper of tha t department. 1341. Mr. Puller.] Is there any considerable number of fossils shut up in drawers ? — Yes, there are some; a great number are exhibited, and a good many are shut up in drawers ; and it is the same with the minerals. By far the greater number in some of the rooms are in drawers, which are not open ; the principal species are exhibited. 1342. Mr. Walpole.] Adopting a phrase of yours, varying one word only, I gather from you that the result of your evidence is this : that you would like the British Museum to be a perfect encyclopedia (I have taken that word instead of " dictionary," as you have put it) of literature, science and art, where people might find the information which they desire to have? — Precisely so; only you have expressed my meaning by a better word than I made use of. Sir Benjamin Bkodie, Bart., Examined. 1343. Chairman.] YOU are President of the Royal Society 'i — I am. 1344. And a Trustee of the British Museum ? — An ex officio Trustee of the British Museum. 1345. Were you present at a special meeting of the trustees, on the 21st January 1860, when it was moved by the First Lord of the Treasury, that it is expedient that the natural history collec- tion be removed from the British Museum in such a manner as would be attended with considerably less expense than would be incurred by providing a vast additional space in immediate contiguity to the present building of the British Museum ? — I was present on that occasion. 1346. Did you vote in the minority on that occasion ? — No. 1347. I believe most of the standing committee did the same? — They did, with few exceptions. 1348. The majority was composed of ex officio trustees ? — Yes, it was. 1349. Mr. Walpole.] But some of those ex officio trustees were also elected trustees? — I believe some were. 1350. Chairman.] Are you aware that only one member of the standing committee of the British Museum voted in the majority ? — The Duke of Somerset and Mr. Gladstone were both ex officio trustees, and elected trustees, and also members of the standing committee. 1351. I think, in the year 1858, you were one of those gentlemen connected with science who signed a memorial to the Chancellor of the Exchequer with regard to the removal of the natural history collections from the British Museum ? — I was. 1352. The memorial in question was adverse to that removal?— Yes, it was; Sir Roderick Mur- chison, Sir Philip Egerton, Professor Owen-, and myself, had an interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. 1353. Do you still entertain the opinion which 0.96. is expressed in that memorial ? — Indeed I see no g; r reason to alter it. jg_ Brodie 1354. Are you still of opinion that the natural Bart. history collections are more likely to be popular — with the less educated classes, than the collection of the Antiquity Department ? — I imagine much more so. 1355. They require less special education to understand? — They do. 1356. Would not the removal to Kensington be most inconvenient to the great body of the working classes, with whom these collections are supposed to be popular? — It seems to me it is plain that it must be so ; they are so much further off the centre of the town. 1357. Considering the position of the different railway termini, would not the removal to Kensing- ton be most inconvenient to the excursionist, and to the persons coming up to London wishing to see the most remarkable sights in the metropolis ? — Certainly ; it cannot be otherwise. 1358. If we were to begin de novo, and a central or a remote position were offered to you for a great national collection, would you not prefer the central ?— For a natural history collection, cer- tainly. 1359. Do you consider that the collections of the works of nature, and of the works of man, are so incompatible that they ought not to be retained under the same roof ? — I should say it would be much better that they should be under the same roof, and that as far as you can you should collect all kinds of knowledge in one place. 1360. That being the case, unless some very strong counterbalancing advantages were made out, you would not remove the natural history collection? — I think not. 1361. The saving of a very large sum to the nation, and the obtaining adequate space, which I will assume cannot be obtained where the collections are at present, you would consider to O 4 be 1 12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Sir B. Brorlie, Bart. 22 June i860. be a counterbalancing advantage for the removal ? — Yes, I think it would. 1362. I am assuming for the moment that the space cannot be obtained where they are ? — Yes ; but then the question arises what space is wanted, and whether it can be obtained where it now is. 1363. I see in that memorial the expression that one of the advantages that would be obtained by retaining the natural history collections where they are at present, would be the saving of a large sum to the nation. I presume therefore that you contemplate in that memorial a saving rather than an increased expenditure by remaining at Blooms- bury ? — I should think that what is wanted may be had in Bloomsbury for a smaller sum of money than it is proposed to lay out at Kensington ; but then the question arises what space is wanted. 1364. Have you seen a plan presented by the superintendent of the Natural History Depart- ment of the British Museum to the Trustees ? — I have. 1365. I believe that covers 10 h acres of ground? — Yes. ' 1366. You are aware, I presume, that the superintendent of the Natural History Depart- ment affirms confidently that within the next 30 years that space, at least, will be required for the proper exhibition of the natural history collec- tions ? — I am aware that he has said so. 1367. Are you aware that from the estimate that was prepared and presented to the trustees, the • cost of a building covering five acres of ground, according to Mr. Smirke's calculation, amounts to 565,000 /. ? — Yes, I am aware of that. 1368. It has since been calculated that 20,000/. would be required for a natural history library, which would be indispensable ? — Yes. 1369. That library, I presume, would be con- stantly increasing ? — Yes, it must increase with the collection; what makes one increase would make the other increase. 1370. It would be necessary, then, to have a double library, increasing both at the British Museum and at the Natural History Museum?- — You must have a natural history library where- ever the Natural History Museum is, to turn it to proper account. 1371. You must also have the same books for the library as the British Museum ? — Yes, 1372. I presume, from your experience of esti- mates, you would hardly think that the estimate of 565,000 /. is not likely to be exceeded? — If 1 were to speak from my own personal experience, I should think it very unlikely that it would not be exceeded. 1373. We are also bound to add to this esti- mate the expense of the transfer of the collec- tions, which I presume would be very consider- able ? — Certainly it must. 1374. Do you apprehend that the expense would be Very considerable, considering the size of those collections ? — I think it would be an enormous work. When the College of Surgeons undertook the charge of the Hunterian Museum, which was in Castle-street, Long-acre, and trans- ferred it to the museum in Lincoln's-Inn-fields, which is about three-quarters of a mile off, I remember it was a most enormous work, and a •very expensive one. That was long ago, when I was a young man. That was a work of great difficulty ; although at that time it was only about one-third of what the museum of the College of Surgeons is now. 1375. In addition to the expense that I have referred to, you must contemplate an adequate staff for this very large establishment ? — Yes, a very much larger staff than there is now for the same collection at the same museum. 1376. Are you aware that the estimate for the British Museum for this year amounts to 100,000 1. ?— Yes, I am. 1377. Do you think the public would be more inclined to sanction an expenditure of 1 60,000 £ or 180,000/. per annum for two establishments, than 100,000 /. or 120,000 /. for one ?— I can only form a general notion of what the public would say, but I should think, looking to the state of our finances, that they would not approve of the House of Commons being so lavish in these matters as they have been ; that is only a matter of opinion. 1378. Do you hot believe that we have more reason to reckon on the liberality of the nation in favour of one great institution with the name of the British Museum, in the grandeur of which the antiquarian, the man of letters, and persons engaged in every branch of science took an inte- rest, than if these collections were dissociated, and the works of nature were removed from the works of art ? — I should think, if the natural history col- lection were removed from its connexion with the British Museum, that it would fare badly compared with what it does now. 1379. I ask you, as a scientific man, and as a taxpayer, is it for the interest of science to have the immense exhibition of specimens contemplated in the plan of the superintendent of natural his- tory ? — I do not think it at all necessary ; I think that the whole thing might be done in a very much smaller space quite as efficiently. 1380. As far as science is concerned, I pre- sume you require a very small exhibition ? — There are two objects : one is an exhibition for ordinary persons who merely go to take a general view of the works of nature, and the other is for men of science to go to study. For the one you require the specimens to be put in cases, and exhibited in a particular manner, where they are constantly exposed ; for the other, that is not at all required. I think that the specimens wanted for the general public need not be so very nume- rous, nothing like so numerous as they now are ; and I think that the specimens wanted for men of science would be better placed in drawers and cases, from which the men of science might tak e them to examine, and look at them all round, which they cannot do when these birds and other specimens are put in cases against the wall. 1381. I am confining myself strictly to asking your opinion with regard to the requisites for the scientific portion of the community. I presume they would only require a very small exhibition ? — The scientific portion of the community would require a great many specimens, but they need not occupy much space. 1382. You would of course, wish for specimens of every genus and species procurable in natural history, but you would not exhibit all? — There is no occasion to exhibit everything. I think so large an exhibition only bewilders the minds of ordinary persons. 1383. So far as the ordinary spectator is con- cerned, would not a liberal exhibition of typical specimens calculated to amuse and strike the mind by variety of colour and so forth, be more likely to impress and instruct than the exhibition of every species, in which the distinctions are hardlv to be recognised except by the closest examina- tion 9 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 113 tion ? — Yes ; not only to amuse them, but in a very moderate space you might have types of the great varieties of the animal creation, which would be interesting to ordinary persons. 1384. Therefore in your opinion, neither the scientific nor the unscientific public would gain by the immense exhibition contemplated in that plan to which I have referred ? — I do not think they would. 1385. Sir G. Grey.] I understood you to say that, in your opinion, the space which was requisite for the extension of the Museum might be ac- quired at a less cost by enlarging the present Museum than by erecting a building on the scale which has been proposed on another site? — I should think so. 1386. Assuming a given amount of space to be requisite on both sites, have you formed an opinion of the comparative expense of providing it by purchasing the ground adjoining the present Museum, and purchasing the ground on another site ? — Taking 10 acres of land where the Museum is, the expense would be much greater than pur- chasing ground at Kensington. 1387. Mr. Lowe.] What space do you think is wanted ? Have you formed any opinion upon that point ? — I have a notion, but I will not attempt to give a precise opinion. I believe that if the houses, with the gardens, which lie to the north of the Museum were purchased, you would get more than sufficient space for all present purposes. I have looked at them, and examined the space lately, and it seems to me, comparing these with the space which we have already, that they would really furnish quite sufficient space. 1388. Do you include in your phrase, " present purpose " a space allowing for increase in the col- lection? — Yes; you might make a considerable allowance. 1389. Have you formed any opinion as to how that space ought to be employed ? — If the houses were all pulled down, I should think you might erect three tiers of long galleries, one above the other ; or, perhaps, for the purpose of study, some building of another kind might be preferable. I have not considered that question sufficiently to be enabled to give a positive answer. 1390. You have had some experience in con- nexion with the Museum of the College of Sur- geons ? — Yes. 1391. Can you give the Committee a short outline of the increase in that Museum since your acquaintance with it ? — First, we had the Hun- terian Museum, which occupied one large building. Since then, we have built another museum of the same size ; and we have built a smaller one be- sides ; that is, within the last 60 years. 1392. Have you not been obliged to increase your space something like six times ? — No ; not three. We have built one museum of the same size as the original one, and a smaller one. 1393. The original museum was not a very large one, was it ; • that was one room with a single gallery? — It has increased one-and-a-half times; that is, we have built one museum of the same size as the original, and another museum of half the size. 1394. Are you aware that the attendance of the working classes is larger at Kensington than at the British Museum? — No ; I am not aware of that. I do not know the attendance at Kensington. 1395. Mr. Putler.~] In speaking of the ex- tension on the north side of the Museum affording sufficient space at present, did you include the 0.96. antiquities, or only the natural history collec- Sir tion.' — I was speaking of the natural history B-Broche, collection ; but I think that there would be more art " space than the natural history collections at ~~\ present would want. It depends on what the jgg natural history collection is ; if it is the object to exhibit to the public every specimen of every bird, for example, then you want a very large space; if you want to exhibit to the public only the types of the different birds, and keep the greater number for the purpose of study, that would require much smaller space. The space required must depend entirely upon the kind of Museum you have. 1396. When you speak of the land which lies north, you refer to the land between the British Museum and Montague-place? — I meant the houses in Montague-place. 1397. Have you considered that that would afford a sufficient extension for the natural history collections, according to your own plan of ex- hibiting them ? — I should think it would. 1398. In proposing such an extension did you mean a building, which would be immediately on one side of Montague-place, to be a building of one storey, or two storeys ? — Not one storey. 1399. Two storeys ? — Two storeys or more ; for instance, the upper storey, with a skylight, might be for the general exhibition, and the lower storey might be for the purpose of study. 1400. Would the lower storeys have sufficient light for the purpose of study ? — Yes ; this room has quite sufficient light for the purpose of study. 1401. But there are no buildings opposite to us ? — There is no difficulty in the studies in private houses. 1402. Chairman.'] With reference to the ques- tion which has just been put to you, as to any future buildings for the exhibition of the collec- tions of natural history, would you propose to construct them upon the model of the College of Surgeons? — Our plan there answers exceedingly well. 1403. The light is remarkably good ? — There is a skylight and two galleries, and a great quan- tity of things are exhibited on the ground floor, both existing animals and extinct animals. Mr. Huxley informed me yesterday that he had mea- sured the galleries of natural history in the Museum, and measured the ground floor of the museum of the College of Surgeons, and he finds that the ground floor of the museum of the College of Surgeons contains only 8,995 square feet, while that of the ornithological room at the British Mu- seum contains 3,950 square feet 1404. Mr. Walpole.] In which gallery of the Museum ? — The Natural History Gallery. 1405. Chairman.] The Ornithological ? — Yes. 1406. Then, adverting to the questions which I asked you at first, do you not think that it would be most disadvantageous for the future progress and welfare of the scientific museum, that great expense should be incurred which the scientific world did not consider to be necessary, and which would only result, in what I may call the be- wilderment of the non-scientific world ? — 1 think it is very undesirable that science should cost the country more than is necessary. It would put them a little out of humour with science. 1407. Mr. Walpole.] Might there not be this distinction between the British Museum, and the Museum of the College of Surgeons, that in the one case a greater number of the public go in, so that they are hardly able to pass each other in the P galleries, 114 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Sir galleries, whereas in the College of Surgeons' B. Brodie, Museum that does not occur ? — The truth is, that Bart. at the College not many go into the galleries but those who go for study. 21 June 1408. Your suggestion would be, that if gal- 1860. leries were erected at the British Museum, you would confine the collections in those galleries merely to the subjects which scientific people would wish to refer to for the purpose of study ? — That would be the better way. The subjects of general interest are on the ground floor of the College of Surgeons, and the other specimens in the galleries. There are two galleries, in each mu- seum, of subjects which are of interest to men of science especially. A great quantity of things are exhibited in that manner ; and these specimens are so arranged that anybody may take one down, and look at it on every side, and make himself thoroughly acquainted with it, which he cannot do with the specimens which are fixed, because he cannot examine them in that manner. 1409. Chairman.~\ Then, as far as you have looked into the matter, you are of opinion that sufficient space can be found in the present loca- lity, without going to very great expense, for the natural history collection ? — I say, without making any exact calculation, that that is my general impression. There is one reason I might mention why the British Museum is very convenient for the student of natural history, which is on ac- count of its proximity to the museum of the College of Surgeons. Those who go to examine one might visit the other upon the same day, be- cause they are not far from one another. 1410. Are you of opinion that it would be ex- pedient to purchase the whole block of buildings around the Museum, and to extend it gradually, according as the space is required? — I should ha^e thought that it would be better to purchase the whole block to the north at once. 1411. If so, would it not be well to have a plan drawn out and approved of, so that all extensions in future should not be mere patchwork, but be in connexion with that plan ? — Certainly. 1412. In drawing out any such plan, do you not think that the officers of the different depart- ments should be consulted?— I do not think that you could form a right opinion without them. They must know a great deal that we cannot know. 1413. Are they not the persons most likely, from their experience and special knowledge, to be best acquainted with the exigencies of their collections, and the proper mode of exhibiting them? — They must have a more minute knowledge, at any rate, than I can have on the subject. 1414. Do you not think that the heads of de- partments should always be consulted in all plans affecting the arrangement of their departments ? — I think they should. 1415. Do you not think that it would facilitate business, if heads of departments were to be pre- sent when the business of their departments was being transacted by the Trustees ? — Yes, I dare say it would; they are now frequently called in by the committee of the Trustees. 1416. Do you not think that the mode of transacting business by written reports is a clumsy mode of doing business, and an unne- cessary tax on the time of the departmental officers ? — I think it is very desirable that they should be combined with oral explanations ; some written reports would be very good to preserve as documents. 1417. Do you agree with the words of Mr. Panizzi, before the Committee of 1849, with regard to the presence of the keepers of collec- tions when their business was being transacted, that " difficulties would be removed, and misap- prehensions be cleared away, which these reports might have created and left on the minds of the trustees " ? — I think that is very correct. 1418. Do you think in the event of its being determined that the natural history collections should be retained, that it would be advisable to simplify the administration of the Museum, by dividing it into three institutions with a respon- sible head to each, antiquities, library, and natural history, and by converting the Trustees into a consultative rather than an administrative body, to be visitors, in short? — I have not considered the subject of the best mode of governing the Museum ; I should think it would be right to have one superintendent of the whole ; I suppose that is meant to be the system at present. 1419. What is the administration of the College of Surgeons at present? — It is under the com- mittee of the council of the College of Surgeons ; I think there are three, one of whom vacates his seat every year. Under them there is a conser- vator of the Museum, and under him there are other persons. 1420. Is the committee in question chiefly a consultative body or an administrative body? — It is an administrative body, but they cannot lay out beyond a certain sum of money. They are members of the council of the college, and they have considerable power. They may lay out certain sums of money, I forget what, but they cannot go beyond a certain point without the authority of the council. 1421. How far would you approve of the re commendation of the commission of 1849, that an executive council should be established for each of the departments, consisting of the chairman, chosen by the Crown, four trustees, selected by the trustees, and two other members appointed by the Crown, and distinguished by their attain- ments in literature and the natural sciences? — That might work very well. 1422. Do you think that that would work better than the present administration? — There are sub-committees appointed by the standing committee, who answer something the same pur- pose. 1423. Are those sub-committees, as far as your experience goes, regular ?— No, they are not so much employed as they might be. 1424. Therefore their efficiency is, of course, naturally very much diminished by their irre- gularity ? — They are very inefficient at present. 1425. Do you consider that science is ade- quately represented at the present Board of Trus- tees ?— I should think, on the whole, it is. The pnly person there, ex officio, as a man of science, is the President of the Eoyal Society, but there are several others elected. I think the others certainly predominate a good deal ; but I do not think they throw much difficulty in the way of science. 1426. Are you in favour of lectures being de- livered at the British Museum ?— That is a very important question. If you have lectures, you must alter the system of the place to a very great extent indeed ; you must have a new staff of lecturers. 1427. You would confine the delivery of lec- tures to the curators of the different collections? —No; SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 115 — No; it does not follow that a person who is a very good person indeed to take care of medals, or specimens of birds, and so on, would be a good lecturer. The pursuits of the curator would not ensure qualifying him at all for teaching others. 1428. Do you think it would be advisable in any future extension of the Museum to construct a theatre for the delivery -of lectures ? — No, I do not think it would. 1429. You do not think that instruction of that description is within the scope and object of the British Museum ? — I do not think it is. We had lectures in the College of Surgeons, which were very excellent lectures, for a long time ; they were given by Professor Owen, and after- wards by Mr. Busk, both, as you know, very learned in natural history, but the numbers that attended were limited, and not many general students ; although there is no difficulty in getting access to the lectures, they are almost all medical men and members of the College who attend. 1430. Do you agree in the opinion that was expressed by the last witness, that the British 21 June i860. Museum ought to be a great encyclopedia for Sir reference in matters of science and art ? — That B. Brodv", was the object for which the Museum was esta- Bart. blished ; if it is to be turned to any other purpose, — ~ it must be very much altered from what it now is, and not only the staff of the Museum, but the building There is no convenience in the present building now for giving lectures. 1431. Do you think it would be advisable that the keepers of any of the departments should occasionally travel for the purpose of examining foreign museums and collections, and reporting to the Trustees? — I suppose a certain good would arise from it, but whether it is worth while to appoint persons for that special purpose I do not know. There is great intercourse between this and other countries. There is very little that goes on in Paris that is not known here. 1432. I am speaking of the keepers of the departments ? — I suppose they might obtain some useful knowledge. I doubt whether it is worth while to make any particular provision for the purpose. Professor Thomas Bell, examined. 1433. Chairman.'] You are, I think, the Presi- dent of the Linnsean Society ? — I am. 1434. You have taken for a considerable period great interest, in natural history ? — The greater part of my life ; certainly more than 50 years. 1435. May I ask what particular branch of natural history you have chiefly directed your at- tention to ? — Zoology, generally ; I have made particular branches of it my separate study. I have also been for many years Professor of Zoology in King's College. 1436. I presume you are well acquainted with the natural history collection of the British Mu- seum? — Yes, generally. 1437. Are you acquainted with foreign collec- tions ? — No, I am not. 1438. I think you signed the memorial in 1858, which was presented to the Chancellor of the Ex- chequer, against the removal of the collections of natural history ? — Yes. 1439. I presume you were influenced in sign- ing that memorial by a belief in the general popu- larity of those collections of natural history ? — Certainly. 1440. You believe that by transferring those collections, you would inconvenience a very great portion of the public ? — I think the removal of the natural history collections from the present cen- tral site in connexion with the British Museum, would be tantamount to destroying half the in- terest of the study of natural history in this country. 1441. First of all, with regard to the public in general, I presume you consider that they would regard with extreme disfavour the transfer of these collections, which you consider so popular, to a more distant locality ? — I have no doubt of it. 1442. Then, with regard to the scientific world, with which you are acquainted, would they object to the dissociation of the natural history collections from the other collections in the British Museum ? — As far as I can judge, from conversations which I have had with the greater part of the naturalists in this country, I have no hesitation in saying that, with very few exceptions, they would agree in the opinion that there should be no such dissociation. 1443. I presume they look upon that British 0.96. Museum as a great national institution, and as a great whole with the works of nature, and the works of art, surrounding a great library ? — Cer- tainly. 1444. With regard to the zoological collections in the British Museum, are you of opinion that it would require a very considerable increase of space to exhibit those collections in a desirable manner ? — Not any very considerable extent of space, because I hold that it is not at all necessary that every specimen should be publicly exhibited. I think, if a certain number of typical specimens are well exhibited, that that will be amply sufficient for the purpose of general instruction. 1445. Will you explain to the Committee the value that you attach to the word " typical " ? — I would have every considerable group represented publicly, so that persons having a certain amount of knowledge of natural history may go to the British Museum and have that knowledge consi- derably increased. Supposing a naturalist is engaged in writing a monograph of any particular group, larger or .smaller, it would be necessary that he should have access to all the specimens in that group, for the purpose of comparison and ar- rangement, and, in order to do that effectually, it would be necessary that those specimens should be accessible in a room shut out from the presence of public visitors. These private rooms or studies should be in immediate communication with the different departments of the natural history col- lections. The crypts below the Museum are in- convenient, and dark, and liable to interruption. 1446. You look upon studies, then, in con- tiguity with exhibition rooms, as indispensable ? — Yes; in contiguity with each of the rooms connected with the different departments of natural history. 1447. Then you consider that if those studies were established in immediate contiguity with each department, that would enable you to dis- pense with a considerable amount of exhibition ? —Certainly. 1448. Now, as regards the public at large, do you attach any value to the exhibition of every species ? — No, none whatever. 1449. Do you think it is calculated to instruct p 2 them, Professor T. Bell. lit) MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Professor them, to fix distinctions upon their minds, to T. Bell. direct their thoughts to the study of particular subjects exhibited ? — I think that would be done ci June by exhibiting types of groups much more effec- 1860. tually than by merely exhibiting slight variations of form or colour ; or, in fact any other distinction. I think that such minute characters would not be caught by the general visitors of the Museum. "1450. Therefore, you think, as far as the ordi- nary visitor is concerned, that the exhibition of everything would be more calculated to bewilder than to convey any impression to his mind ? — At all events it would be wholly useless as regards the study of natural history. It is impossible that anybody can stop and examine anything closely in a great room in which numbers of persons are continually passing to and fro, and to which the public have access. - 1451. Are you acquainted with the Ornitho- logical Gallery of the British Museum ? — Not in- timately ; I know the rooms well. 1452. You are aware of the nature of the structure of that room ? — Yes. 1453. Are you not of opinion that, presuming you erected glass cases where the present collec- tion of shells is, that that would aiFord room for exhibiting, in family groups, a sufficient number of specimens of birds for a very considerable number of years to come ? — Yes, I should think it would; I have not examined the space with that view, but my present impression is that it would be so. 1454. You think it would be advisable that the exhibition should be according to families as much as possible, so as to convey the distinction to the spectator ? — Yes. 1455. That might be accomplished, in many instances, by separate cases ? — I think, in many instances, that would be so ; I am hardly com- petent to give a very decided opinion, unless I had looked at the rooms with that object, which I have not done. 1456. Then on the whole you do not think that we should be justified in incurring a great expense for the exhibition of every object, either as re- gards the public in general, or as regards the more scientific portion of it ? — I do not think it is at all necessary that it should be done ; I presume of the expense would render that impracticable, even if it were desirable. 1457. Have you at all considered any of the plans for obtaining space on the ground contiguous to the British Museum? — Yes, I have looked over some of the plans. My impression certainly is, that if the whole of the block north, east, and west of the present site of the British Museum, including Montague-street, Montague-place, and Charlotte-street, with part of Bedford-square, could be purchased at once, it might be made use of gradually. Of course there would be a considerable return for some years to come, by the continued rents of the houses which would still be occupied, and an increase of space might be acquired year after year as it would be wanted, until the houses would be gradually absorbed into the general building. It would be necessary to have some fixed plan which should be well di- gested in the first instance, and all additions made in accordance with that general plan, and then you would have one uniform whole. 1458. Sir George Grey.'] Are you sufficiently acquainted with the extent of the various col- lections in the British Museum, and of their probable increase, to form an estimate of the amount of space which would be required withm the next 30 years for the exhibition of those collections? — I can hardly say that I can give a decided opinion as to the amount of space, but, as far as I can judge, from the present building, I think that the addition I have mentioned would be quite sufficient. 1459. Chairman.] Of course you are acquainted with the Mammalian Saloon ? — Yes. 1460. That is a very incommodious and badly lighted chamber? — Very much so. 1461. I therefore presume that accommodation, as far as your investigation has gone, would be chiefly required for a proper exhibition of the mammalia ; are you of opinion that a larger mam- malian gallery is requisite at present for the British Museum ? — Yes ; a larger mammalian gal- lery is absolutely necessary. The space is ex- ceedingly crowded, and you also want room for the exhibition of some of the largest mammalia. 1462. Have you at all calculated what should be the extent of that room? — No, I have not thought of it. 1463. On the whole, however, have you con- sidered that a very moderate increase of space would be sufficient for the wants of the Zoolo- gical Department at the present moment? — A considerable increase of space would he required, but not more than would be provided by the plan I have alluded to. 1464. But the whole of your evidence is de- cidedly against exhibiting more than a certain proportion of specimens of the different collec- tions ? — It would be utterly impossible, whatever extent of further space might be given, to exhibit specimens of every individual species. I should think that twice the size of the plan proposed by Professor Owen would be required to exhibit the whole of the specimens, as specimens ought to be • be exhibited distinctly. The exhibition of species is quite out of the question. I will also say that, with respect to some groups, their constant exhi- bition would absolutely spoil them by exposure to light. This would be especially the case with tepidopterous insects, for example. 1465. Are you not aware also that the same remark holds good with regard to many of the mammalia and many of the birds ; that exposure to light destroys their colour ? — I think to a cer- tain extent it does, but not to the same extent as insects. 1466. Mr. Tite.] Do you think it desirable to exhibit the very large specimens of natural his- tory ; the mastodon, for instance ? — I think it may be desirable to have specimens of large size, pro- vided space can be conveniently obtained for them. 1467. Do you mean skeletons, or something which will give a general idea of the animal? — If you can have a skeleton, as well as a stuffed specimen, of each of the larger animals, it would be highly desirable ; they are so few that they would not take up much space. 1468. You think that, in any new gallery, those large animals should be exhibited ?— Yes, pro- vided you could obtain space for them without too great a sacrifice. 1469. Is it possible to obtain skins of animals on a very large scale ; do you think it would be possible to obtain a large specimen of the skin of a whale, and to preserve it?— I am not aware by what means you could obtain it. 1470. Would it be a model rather than an ex- hibition of the thing itself: — I do not say it is impossible, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 117 impossible, but I am not prepared to say how it would be. obtained. 1471. You are not very much acquainted with the theory or practice of whale fishing ? — No. I think it will depend very much on the facilities which could be afforded by the whale fishers. I should think it would be extremely difficult. 1472. If you could not obtain the skin, would you exhibit an imitation specimen of so large a mammalian animal as a whale 1— I do not think I should be disposed to exhibit a large model of an animal. I think in the case of any peculiarly in- teresting species of which you cannot obtain a specimen, you might perhaps exhibit a model with advantage, but generally to make a large model erely for the purpose of showing the form of a m< well-known animal appears to me entirely unne- cessary. 1473. You would not want one 90 feet long ? — No, you would not have recourse to a model for that purpose if you wanted to exhibit one 90 feet long. 1474. Mr. Puller.'] You consider the most de- sirable thing is to have studies for scientific per- sons, and for general information? — Yes. 1475. You used the expression " in immediate contiguity with the rooms in which the general display of objects was" ? — In contiguity with the parts of the rooms in which those specimens are placed, which are to be consulted by the students. 1476. Not in contiguity with those specimens which are excluded from the public? — The object Would be, that when a naturalist goes to the British Museum for the purpose of studying any particular group of animals, he requires to be put in such a situation as not to be interrupted by the influx of visitors; and, in order to do that conveniently, the study to which he has access should be as near as possible to the collection which he is studying at the time. 1477. "With reference to the convenience of car- rying specimens to him? — Yes. 1478. Have you considered whether the lower storey of any building in Montague-place would have light sufficient for the purpose of displaying the objects? — I really have not considered it, but I should think there can be no doubt that light might be obtained. 1479. At all events for the larger objects? — Yes. I wish to suggest that considerable additional room might be obtained by the gratuitous disposal of absolute duplicates ; there are in the Museum an immense number of duplicate specimens. 1480. Chairman.'] Of what ?— Of almost all the groups of animals. According to the present ar- rangement those cannot be disposed of, except by exchange or sale. It appears to me that very great advantage might be derived to various institutions for the promotion of science, either in the neighbourhood of London or in the country, by allowing them to have gratuitous selections from duplicates. I have known instances in which duplicates have absolutely been allowed to perish in the crypts of the Museum, merely because there is a rule by which they cannot be disposed of, except by sale or exchange. 1481. Mr. Walpole.] Are you not aware that we have had a good deal of evidence before us "which tends to entirely the contrary conclusion, namely, that there is no such thing as duplication in the Museum? — I am very much surprised to hear that. Certainly, I am speaking now of many years ago, especially in Dr. Leach's time, when I knew the Museum better than I have of late. 0.96. 1482. There may be two specimens, but those specimens need not be duplicates? — They need not be. 1483. It would be very desirable to keep them if there was any material distinction ? — Yes ; that made me use the term, '' absolute duplicates" 1484. Mr. Tite.] Was it the fact, to your own knowledge, that there were duplicates ? — To my own knowledge it was the case formerly. 1485. Which you would have disposed of in that way ? — Yes. 1483. Mi\ Walpole.] What you wish to have done would be this : that in case there should be duplicates in the Museum, that is, strictly speak- ing, duplicates, there should be the power to part with them? — That is so. 1487. Chairman.] How far would you advo- cate the appointment of a periodical commission to go through the different collections of the British Museum, and examine as to what dupli- cates there might be ?— I should think that the keepers of the different departments would always be accessible, and, of course, if questions were put to them by the trustees, or proper authorities, they would be able to state better than any com- mission. It would not be necessary to have the machinery of a commission to ascertain what duplicates there are. 1488. Mr. Puller.] When you spoke of dupli- cates, did you mean that, according to your belief and understanding, there were a great many dupli- cates of equal value ; you did not allude to speci- mens that had become deteriorated by exposure to light ? — That may or may not have been the case. The time that J allude to was 35 or 40 years ago, and at that time the head of the Na- tural History Department, Dr. Leach, acknow- ledged to me there were duplicates which would be extremely useful to be given elsewhere. I would just observe that I have myself exchanged, and have obtained absolute duplicates in exchange; I have given the Museum species which they have not had before, and have received from them duplicates of species which I had not in my own collection. That has been the case in respect to my collection of Crustacea, which is probably larger than any other private collection in Europe. I have obtained some species which they had not in the Museum, which of course I was very glad to give them in exchange, without particularly considering on which side the advantage was. 1489. Mr. Walpole.] In the Mineralogical De- partment, where there may be. duplicates, it does occasionally occur when you buy a collection that they are very often exchanged for other mine- rals of a similar character, and exchanged with great advantage ? — Yes ; and I would add this instance : I have received in one lot from Aus- tralia not less than 100 specimens of an entirely new species, of which there was not one in the British Museum ; I gave them a very fine series of them, and received in exchange some specimens which would otherwise have been useless. I think it should be in the power of the authorities to give duplicates, where at present they have only power to sell or exchange. 1490. There is power to sell or exchange, but not the power to give ? — Yes. 1491. Mr. Tite.] You think it desirable that the trustees should have the power of giving, with reference to the promotion of science generally ? —Yes. p3 Professor T. Bell. 1 1 June 1 Sfa'o. i 1 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Lunce, 25° die Junii, 1860. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Ayrton. Sir Philip Egerton. Mr. W. H. Gregory. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Knight. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Puller. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Tite. Mr. Turner. Mr. W. H. GREGORY, in the Chair. Edward Hawkins, Esq., called in ; and Examined. E. Haiuhins, Esq. 25 June i860. 1492. Chairman.] You are the Keeper of the Department of Antiquities in the British Mu- seum? — Yes. 1493. How long have you been the keeper of that department ?— About 35 years. 1494. Your office, I presume, is to superintend the work of your assistants ? — Yes. 1495. You have subdivided the work of those assistants ? — Not formally ; virtually they have separate departments, but each is liable to be called upon to assist in other subdivisions when- ever he is required. In fact, they are appointed generally to the department. 1496. Mr. Birch, I think, has charge of the Egyptian antiquities and ethnography ? — Yes. 1497. Mr. Vaux has the charge of the oriental antiquities and coins ? — Yes. 1498. Mr. Oldfield has the charge of the Greek and Roman antiquities, also the arrangement of the sculpture gallery ? — Yes, generally. 1499. Mr. Franks has the charge of the British and the mediaeval antiquities ? — Yes. 1500. And Mr. Poole has charge of the medals and Greek and Roman coins ? — All coins, in- cluding the English. 1501. And Mr. Pfister, the department of the mediaeval coins and medals ? — Yes. 15C2. Have these collections very greatly in- creased since your appointment? — Very largely. 1503. Can you form any estimate at all as to the probable future increase of the collections of antiquities ? — No. I think it is impossible to form any estimate as to what is the probable in- crease. We do not increase bit by bit ; we some- times have large acquisitions at one time from unexpected sources. 1504. But even for the collections which you have at present, more space is required both to hold them and for a more systematic arrangement of the galleries ?■ — Yes, very much more. 1505. In your opinion, is the arrangement of the present galleries such as is worthy a great in- stitution like the British Museum ? — Certainly not. 1506. The visitor, I think, is compelled to go through galleries in what I may call a wrong order ; that is, he comes in at the latest and goes backward to the earliest? — He must go through without any order at all. 1507. When you arrive at the second room there is the confusion of seeing Grasco-Roman, Assyrian, and Egyptian sculptures all at once ; is noi that the case ? — Yes. 1508/ You [object, do you not, to the arrange- ment of the antiquities as they now exist ? — Cer- tainly. 1509. With regard to space, complaints have arisen as to the inadequacy of the Lycian room to hold the antiquities which are in it ? — It was originally too small, and the available space has been diminished by two large doorways being cut through the walls. 1510. When you say that the Lycian room is very small for its contents, you mean too small for a proper exhibition of those contents ? — Yes. 1511. The present arrangement of that room, I think, was made by Sir Richard Westmacott ? — Yes, it was. 1512. It was the arrangement of that room, I think, which caused a misunderstanding between; him and Sir Charles Fellows, which occupied so much time in the Commission of 1850 ? — Yes, it was that room. 1513. I think it appears in the report of that commission, in pages 40 and 41, that the Commis- sioners expressed their regret that that arrange- ment was not confided to you 1 — Yes, I believe they did. 1514. I see in that report that by statute 3, of the Museum Code, " The duty is assigned to each officer of the department of arranging scientifically, all additions, which may, from time to time, be made to the collections under his care. In the department of antiquities it appears that this rule is set aside, or at least so construed that the arrangement of a larger class of objects is con- fided to another, and completed, before these ob- jects are put under the charge of Mr. Hawkins." Were those expressions of the Commissioners of 1850, in reference to this misunderstanding be- tween Sir Charles Fellows and Sir Richard Westmacott ? — Yes, I should think so. 1515. Although the Lycian room has been enlarged in some respects, is it possible to arrange those collections properly, without still obtaining some additional space ?— It is quite impossible to arrange them properly in the present room. 1516. In order to accommodate your collections, I believe there are four rooms now made use of on the basement which were not originally in- tended for exhibition?— Yes. 1517. Those are first, the Graco-Roman base- ment room, marked No. 1; is that correct?— Tes. [Plan 16. Parliamentary Paper, No. 379, of Session 1857-8.] 1518. The SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 11 9 1518. The Carthaginian room, No. 4, is ano- ther?— Yes. 1519. No. 5, the Assyrian room, is another? — Yes. 1520. No. 6, the Sepulchral and Etruscan room is the fourth ? — Yes. 1521. In order to reach these rooms, the public have to descend through staircases which, I think, are both inconvenient and unsuitable ? — Yes ; there are separate staircases, to descend into two different parts. 1522. But the public in each case have to re- turn the same way ? — -Yes. 1523. Two of those rooms, namely, the Cartha- ginian room, and the sepulchral basement room are extremely dark, are they not ?— What is called the Carthaginian room is very dark ; and the Greco-Roman room is dark. 1524. Is not the Sepulchral and Etruscan room dark ? — That is very dark ; it is only lighted in a great degree by reflected lights. 1525. They are crypts, in fact ? — Yes, they are, and were never intended for the purpose of exhi- bition. 1526. Do you think that any part of the base- ment should be used for public galleries?— I think certainly not. 1527. Do you not require that space for work- shops, for warehousing, and for casts? — We are so much in want of space of that kind, that when- ever we get a large acquisition, we are obliged to make the exhibition galleries into work-rooms. 1528. Your opinion is, that all the sculpture galleries should be on the principal floor, and opening one into the other en suite ? — Yes. 1529. Do you think that the upper floors of the British Museum would be available for sculp- tures ? — No, I should think it would be very in- convenient. It is exceedingly dangerous to move large bodies of that kind, and to elevate them ; you may make the ground sufficiently strong if you please, but it would be very inconvenient. I know when such a thing was contemplated at the Royal Academy, that Sir Richard Westmacott absolutely protested against it, and the plan was given up. 1530. Then your wish would be, to keep all your exhibition of antiquities, if possible, upon the ground floor 1 — Upon the ground floor. 1531. I find in the report which you sent in to the trustees of the British Museum on the 7th of July 1858, these words : " In determining the limits of this investigation, Mr. Hawkins assumes that the ground floor should contain space for the whole of our sculpture. To place any portion on a different floor is to interrupt the series which the student desires to examine consecutively ; to place any on the basement, is to superadd the evil of an inconvenient and unsuitable access, and generally a deficient light ; to place any on the upper floor, would be to expose such portion to serious risk." Does that convey a general resume of your opinion upon that subject ? — I am still of that opinion. 1532. In your opinion, is it advisable that the galleries of sculpture should succeed one another in chronological order? — Certainly. It is im- possible they can well be understood, and be so instructive as they ought to be, without they are so arranged. 1533. Do you think that such chronological arrangement is valuable for the study and for the progress of art ? — Certainly. 1534. Then would you arrange the principal 0.96. i860. series, such as the Egyptian, Assyrian, Greek, and E. Hawkins, Roman, in parallel lines ? — I think that would be Esq. the most advantageous way of doing it, because " it would enable you to extend each series when 25 June you obtained any fresh acquisition, without inter- fering with the others. 1535. The fresh acquisition then, might be in- corporated by extending the gallery to which it belongs ? — Yes. 1536. Now, with regard to the requirements of your department, to which side of the Museum do you look for accommodation ? — To the west side only. 1537. That is, I presume, you wish for the ground which now lies between the department of antiquities and Charlotte-street? — Yes; that in the first instance. 1538. Any galleries which you would construct there would be parallel with the present galleries ? — Yes. 1539. From your personal observation, do you believe that the houses in Charlotte-street are less valuable than the houses on the other side of the Museum? — That I do not know; I am not com- petent to form any opinion upon that. 1540. You are well acquainted with the locality, no doubt? — I should say that the houses in Char- lotte-street appear, externally, to be less valuable than those on the other side. 1541. In your opinion, the galleries of sculpture ought to be lighted, if possible, by skylights 1 — Yes. 1542. You look upon that as almost indispen- sable for proper exhibition? — Yes, I do, for sculp- ture. 1543. Will you look to the papers moved for by Lord Elcho, and turn to Plan 18 ; number 20, which at present is the print room ; I want to know, would the rooms to the east of the print room, and in the open space to the north of the Elgin room, together with the room on the site of the principal staircase, and the Grenville room, and the large manuscript room, supply the space which is re- quired for the antiquities ? — They would neither give us the quantity nor the quality of the space we require. 1544. Take the Grenville room, for instance ; do you think if you had the Grenville room placed at your disposition at present, that it would be suited for the exhibition of sculpture ? — Cer- tainly not. 1545. The same objection, I presume, would apply to the manuscript room ? — Yes, certainly. 1546. Will you tell the Committee why, in your opinion, the Grenville room would not be suited for the proper exhibition of sculpture ? — ■ It has not a sufficient light ; it has a side light, and it has not enough of it. 1547. It is very dark ? — Yes. 1548. Can you inform the Committee of the total space, in superficial feet, that is now occu- pied by the exhibition rooms in your department ? — The total space now occupied is about 75,000 square feet. 1549. Mr. Puller.] Does that include the base- ment ? — That includes all the rooms open for ex- hibition. 1550. Chairman.'] Is the whole of that 75,000 feet which you have mentioned fit for the purpose of exhibition ? — No, that includes the inconve- nient basements. 155 1 . That includes the inconvenient basements to which I have already referred ? — Yes. 1552. How many thousand feet do you con- p4 ^ sider 120 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E. Hawkins, sider is unfit for the purpose of exhibition out of Esq. 25 June i860. the 75,000 to which you have referred? — The basement storey contains between 14,000 and 15,000 feet; I consider that basement storey in- convenient. 1553. If you turn to the report of the 10th November 1857, of the principal librarian, in pages 38 and 39, I think it is there stated that 94,734 superficial feet are occupied by the collec- tions of antiquities. I presume the difference be- tween the 75,000 feet, which you have mentioned, and the 94,734 referred to in this report, is occupied by workshops, and cast rooms, and warehouse rooms, which are not fit for the purpose of exhibition ? —Probably, but I do not understand at once how the difference arises between those two numbers. 1554. Have you made any calculation as to the number of superficial feet required to exhibit pro- perly those objects which you hnve, and which are now imperfectly exhibited ? — In addition to all we have now ? 1555. Yes.— Upwards of 47,000 feet. 1556. Mr. Puller.'] To exhibit what you have got now ? — Yes. 1557. Chair/nan.] Do you not contemplate in the 47,000 feet which you require, the neces- sary space for the improvement of the present arrangements ? — Yes ; I mean for the adequate exhibition of those objects which we now have. 1558. Mr. Hardy.] Of course, giving up the basement? — That would require an additional 14,000 feet. 1559. You would give up the basement to other purposes? — Yes; we should want the basement for workshops and for unpacking. 1560. In order to arrange the whole collection in systematic order, including all the sculpture and the smaller objects, have you made any calcu- lation as to the number of superficial feet that would be required ? — Yes, I think that we should want about 122,000 feet. 1561. I presume in that calculation you con- template any moderate acquisitions that are likely to arise? — Very moderate acquisitions; here and there a single object might be incorporated. 1562. Mr. Ayrton.] Are there any antiquities at Brompton worth exhibiting which you could incorporate into the Museum ? — I do not know the Brompton collection at all ; but there should not. 1563. Have you ever seen it? — Do you mean ■what is called the South Kensington Museum ? 1564. Yes. — I am not at ail acquainted with it. 1565. That is not supposed to contain any ob- ject which a man of science would consider worth anything ? — I do not think there ought to be anything there that we want. 1566. Mr. Tite.] You forget the great archi- tectural collection there, which must have a great interest with you ? — A large part of that was once in the British Museum, and it was removed to Kensington. 1567. That, of course, is of considerable im- portance in a scientific point of view ? — Yes. 1568. _ Mr. Ayrton.] Why was it removed from the British Museum ?— Because it was not con- sidered by the trustees to be at all a suitable collection for them ; in the first place, we do not like casts. 1569. Was it because you did not consider them choice specimens of art worth exhibiting ? — As far as casts go, they were of a very choice description ; they were a collection purchased by Sir Thomas Lawrence, and given to the Aca- demy; the Academy transferred them to the British Museum, and the British Museum not thinking architectural casts fit for our exhibition, gave them back again; and they are now, I be- lieve, added to the South Kensington Museum. 1570. Mr. Tile.] Were they not Italian and Greek architecture principally ? — Chiefly Italian. 1571. Chairman.] Will you give to the Com- mittee an idea of the number of feet that you have at present available for exhibition, and the- number in addition which you think are required ? — We have now 75,000 feet occupied, but from that we should take 14,000 as inconvenient space - y that leaves 61,000 feet. 1572. How much more do you require ? — The total that I require is about 122,000. 1573. Mr. Ayrton.] That is for the purpose of exhibition ? — For exhibition. 1574. Chairman.] With respect to the addi- tional 61,000 feet which you require, is it neces- sary that skylights should be provided for the whole ? — Certainly; it is very advisable that skylights should be provided for all of it. 1575. Am I to presume that in these calcula- tions no part of the present collections are to be removed from the Museum ? — No part whatever. 1576. In your opinion, is it unadvisable to re- move the British or the mediajval collections ? — Quite unadvisable. 1577. Have you the same objection to re- move the ethnographical collection, which is in your department ?• — No ; but I think that a collec- tion of that sort ought to be had, somewhere or other, and if it is removed from the British Mu- seum, I know of no other place that it is to go to. 1578. Then, I presume, that for the sake of the ethnographical collection, you would wish that it should be sent somewhere else, where it would have a larger space devoted to it, and perhaps a greater interest taken in its extension? — Yes; there is one part of the ethnographical collection which ought to be kept, which is all those objects which illustrate Greek, Roman, and British anti- quities. 1579. What do you allude to? — What are called the Celts. That is, the stone weapons or stone hammers. They illustrate the mode in which they were used, and the mode in which they were fastened to handles. 1580. Mr. Tite.] Do you mean bronze imple- ments as well as stone ?— Both ; principally stone. 1581. Sir Philip Egerton.] Have you any Mexican antiquities?— They are from all parts of the world. _ 1582. Would you retain the Mexican antiqui- ties which you purchased some years ago ? No, I do not see any necessity to retain them ; they do not seem to me to have any connexion with classical antiquities or national antiquities. 1583. Do they not throw some light on Egyp- tian ornament? — Very little indeed. 1584. Chairman.] It is rather difficult to draw the line between Oriental collections, is it not?— It is very difficult; I should say more than dif- ficult. 1585. With regard to coins, are you of opinion that it would be advisable that there should be an exhibition of coins and medals ?— Yes, that has been long intended, and is only prevented by want of space. 1586 Do you not think that, as works of art, many of these coins would be of very great benefit tor the public to be acquainted with ?— Yes, I think they would. 1587. That SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 121 1587. That they would be calculated to im- prove the taste of the public ? — Yes. 1588. What is the annual grant for purchases in your department at present ? — For the whole department it is 3,000 /. this year. 1589. I think at one period the grant was larger? — Yes, it has been occasionally larger; 3,500 1, and even 4,000 1. 1590. It has lately been reduced? — Yes. 1591. In the expenditure of this annual grant, how much is the keeper of the department al- lowed to expend upon his own authority between one meeting of the trustees and another ? — That is rather a disputed point. We formerly were allowed to spend as much as 5 I. at a time ; and, upon my requiring additional power, 1 was al- lowed to spend 20 /. ; but then that is construed to be spent between two meetings of trustees, so that, in point of fact, upon that construction, we are worse off than we were before. 1592. You cannot then spend more than 20 I. between the meetings of the trustees ? — I do not think the trustees would construe it in that kind of way ; if it came before them, I think they would allow us to spend 20 /. at one time. 1 593. Sir Philip Egerton.~] You are empowered to spend 20 1, on a single object ? — Yes. 1594. Before that order of the trustees, you were only allowed to spend 5 I. upon a single object? — Yes. 1595. Chairman.] You might spend six or seven five pounds on six or seven different objects ? — Yes. 1596. Now, I presume you are only enabled to spend the amount of 20 I. ? — I do not think we should be limited to that. 1597. Upon any particular emergency, is the keeper of a department allowed to go beyond 20 /. ? —No. 1598. Does not the principal librarian sanction at times an expenditure exceeding 20 I. ?— - The principal librarian is now authorized to sanction an expenditure to a higher amount, but to what limits I do not know. 1599. And, practically, he does so? — Yes, cer- tainly ; he gives all the assistance he can in that way. 1600. Have you ever found that these limita- tions have impeded any desirable purchase ? — Very often indeed. 1601. Are single objects and collections some- times offered for sale without any previous notice ? —Yes. 1602. Has it ever happened that you, being unable to obtain the sanction of the trustees in the proper time, have been obliged to forego making a purchase ? — Yes. 1603. Was there not a very considerable sale a short time ago in Paris, of Monsieur Louis Fould's collection ? — Yes, there was ; but in that case the catalogue came to us only two days before the sale, so that, under any circumstances, I should not have had an opportunity of consulting the trustees upon that point. 1604. Do you believe that there were many objects in that sale which it would have been very desirable to have purchased ? — There were several objects in that collection which Ave should have liked to have had. 1605. You were unable to attend that sale in consequence of not having sufficient notice? — We had not sufficient time to get authority to do so. 1606. Have you ever known any instance of 0.96, i860. gentlemen being unwilling to submit to the Board E. Hawkins, of Trustees articles which they might have wished Esq. to have sold, and which they would have been willing to have placed at the disposition of the 2 5 June keeper? — We have all grades of those objections. We find an article in the possession of an indi- vidual who sometimes is willing to sell ; sometimes they_ are content to sell; at other times they require a little pressure j at other times a great deal of persuasion. Those are negotiations which we cannot enter into, because we are not at all certain,_ when we have done so, that we shall not be putting ourselves and the proprietor into the false position of having induced him to offer the things, and then not buying them. 1607. For instance, a man might be willing to run the chance of your refusing an object confi- dentially, but he would not be willing to run the chance of having it stated that the object was re- fused by the Board of Trustees ? — Yes, certainly ; I have known such things happen more than once. 1608. Then, I presume that, in your opinion, it would be advisable to give greater latitude to the heads of departments in the expenditure of the annual grant ? — I think so, decidedly. 1609. I presume, in the case of large collec- tions, the trustees are guided by the reports of the officers of the departments who have been com- missioned to examine those collections ? — Yes, I should suppose so. The officers make reports, and the trustees act upon them as far as they please. 1610. Therefore, if the trustees are forced to rely upon the judgment of the officers of the de- partments with regard to the purchase of large collections, they might give greater latitude to their judgment in the purchase of comparatively small things ? — Certainly they might. 1611. I presume this would involve no addi- tional expense ? — Certainly not. 1612. Because you could not exceed the annual grant ? — Certainly not. 1613. I alluded some time ago to a misunder- standing between Sir Charles Fellows and Sir Richard Westmacott; and I read an extract to you from the Museum Statutes, in which the arrangement of the objects in the galleries is vested in the keepers ; are you aware of that ? — Yes. 1614. Therefore you are nominally and theo- retically responsible for the arrangement of the galleries in your department ? — Yes. 1615. But now, practically, is the arrangement of these galleries entirely left in your hands ? — No. 1616. Have your proceedings ever been over- ruled in any instance by the trustees ? — Yes. 1617. Has the practice of interfering with the heads of departments in the arrangement of their departments been disapproved of by the report of the Commissioners of 1850? — I think, if I recol- lect right, the Commission did object to that sort of interference, I mean in the instance you have mentioned with regard to Sir Bichard Westmacott and Sir Charles Fellows. 1618. Do you remember this passage in the Report of the Commissioners on the British Mu- seum in 1850 : " By Statute 3, sect. 8, of the Museum Code, the duty is assigned to each officer of a department, of arranging scienti- fically all additions which may be made from time to time to the collections under his care. In the department of antiquities it appears that this rule is set aside, or at least so construed that the arrangement of a large class of objects is confided Q «- to 122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E. Hawkins, Esq. 25 June i860. to another, and completed before these objects are ]iut under the charge of Mr. Hawkins. The pre- ference of other advice by the trustees rests upon grounds stated by one of the trustees at Q. 10877. We are hardly convinced of the necessity of a prac- tice somewhat anomalous, by which, in matters of common recurrence, the trustees habitually act on the advice, and use the services of a gentleman not on the staff of the Museum, to the exclusion, as would appear, of the head of the department ; " do vou remember that passage ? — Yes. 1619. liave the trustees, since the report, in- terfered in the arrangement or the management of your department ? — Yes. 1620. Do you think that that arrangement has been for the benefit of that department ? — No, I think not. 1621. I wish to ask you if you coincide in an opinion expressed by the late Mr. Hallam before that Commission. I will read the passage : " I think that a very minute control on the part of committees of the trustees, and still more, perhaps, on the part of any one officer, would be considered vexatious, and would cripple, in a great degree, the exertions of the heads of departments. They are at present, and I trust always be, very zealous, very well informed, and very useful offi- cers. It is well known that those who may be called professional men, are never very much pleased with the interference of amateurs ; and I do not wonder that it should be so ; it is their own business ; it is that to which they give their whole time ; and it is very natural that they should not like to have their judgment unnecessarily checked and restrained by the interference of official su- periors. Of course this can only be a matter of discretion ; it is evident that there may be an error on both sides ; but it appears to me, as a general principle, that the trustees should rather avoid interfering minutely with the management of the departments. The more they know of them the better ; but that is a very different thing from in- terference. I will just illustrate this by a single instance. There may be half a dozen different systems of ornithology ; one only can be adopted. I should not think it very desirable that when any particular system has been adopted and acted upon in our collection of ornithology, that any person being a trustee, or otherwise connected with the Museum, should control the department and say, ' This is wrong ; such birds should have been placed in another division, and such birds in this division.' I think that in all matters of that sort (I only give that as an illustration, because I should apply the same rule to every other department), that when we have men as eminent as we ought to have, and as I trust we have, in the different departments, they ought not to be checked by different opinions, which, after all, may be doubt- ful opinions on the part of those who, as I say, are only officially, and not naturally, their superiors." Do you coincide in those observations of Mr. Hal- lam ? — Yes. 1622. Do you think the policy of the trus- tees towards the antiquity department has im- proved since the report of that Commission ? — No, I do not think it has, because they have interfered more. 1623. Do you think that, from very conscien- tious motives no doubt, the trustees take a more active part in the management of details at pre- sent than they did before ?— Certainly, a much more active part. 1624. You think that is exactly the reverse of what the Commissioners recommended? — I sup- pose it was. 1625. Do you think that the trustees are more likely to interfere in the department of antiqui- ties than they are in other departments ; take, for instance, the department of natural history ? — I think some would interfere more in natural his- tory, and some would interfere more with antiqui- ties, according to their tastes. 1626. I presume a gentleman might be perfectly well aware that he was not a natural historian ; but he would be unwilling to deny himself the attribute of having good taste ? — Yes. 1627. Do the trustees require plans for the arrangement of each room to be submitted to them beforehand ? — Yes ; they have latterly. 1628. When that plan is submitted to the trus- tees, is there not written across it " plan ap- proved," in case the plan is approved ? — I am not sure about that. 1629. In case any alteration takes place in that plan, does that involve any delay ? — If it is a very large alteration, it goes before them again ; but if it is a small alteration, the officers have been dis- posed to make it without applying again. 1630. Some misunderstandings have taken place in consequence of alterations of plans which have been submitted in your department with regard to the arrangement of the Elgin room ? — When we were re-arranging the Elgin room, a plan was submitted to the trustees, which was approved of; but it was ordered to be stopped about four years ago till further orders, and those further orders have not yet been given. 1631. Then, I am to understand that the ar- rangement of the Elgin room has remained incom- plete for four years owing to these misunderstand- ings ? — -Somewhere about that time. 1632. The Elgin room is not arranged as it ought to be at present ?— No ; it is in an unfor- tunate position. 1633. I have been given to understand that the fixing of many of the marbles on pedestals has also been delayed for several years in consequence of the interference of the trustees : is that the case ? —Yes. 1634. I believe that the interference of the trustees has arisen from differences among them- selves, some preferring one kind of marble, and some preferring another species of marble ? — It is a matter of taste ; of course, all committees will differ. 1635. Therefore you think, I presume, that a matter of that kind ought to be left to the head of the department rather than to gentlemen who do not seem to be unanimous upon these points ? — It is better that a thing of that kind should be done by an individual than by a committee of any kind. You cannot get a better quality of Commissioners than you have now. 1636. Do the directors of other institutions, such as the National Gallery, and the South Ken- sington Museum, act upon their own authority as a general rule, without referring the details of the administration to any Board of amateurs ?— I am not very well acquainted with their constitution ; but I understand that the officers of the South Kensington Museum refer any question diately to the Privy Council, and get an diate answer. 1637. With regard to the arrangement of his collection, does the officer act upon his own re- sponsibility ?— I believe entirely. 1638. Do lmme- imme- SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 123 1638. Do you think that some such form of government as that would advance the efficiency of the different departments of the British Mu- seum? — Very much indeed; it would simplify them, and make them more efficient. 1639. Are you in favour of one central govern- ment, or would you be disposed, for the sake of better administration, to divide the Museum into three different heads ? — Speaking of my own de- partment, I would say it would be very much improved if it were entirely independent of every other institution as to its internal government. I think it should be a museum of antiquities, totally separate and unconnected with any other establishment. 1640. Do you think that the union of all these three great departments throws an overwhelming- mass of business upon the principal librarian, which causes considerable delay in the transaction of business? — I think the sort of amalgamation that there is now is exceedingly injurious to them all. 1641. You would propose simply to divide the Museum into three separate departments, over each of which a single head might preside, and be, as it were, a director of that separate insti- tution? — Yes, an entirely separate institution, not having any communication with any other what- ever. 1642. Would you make that director resident? — The managing director should certainly be re- sident. 1643. "Would you give him supreme authority for purchases ! — " Supreme authority " is a very strong word. 1644. 'Would you vest in his hands the dispo- sition of the annual grant? — Certainly. 1645. Would you vest in his hands the dispo- sition of the money allocated for fittings and fur- niture in that department ? — Yes. 1646. And in controlling the whole arrange- ment of the collections ?— Yes, certainly. 1647. I presume you do not propose at all to supersede the supreme action of the trustees as visitors? — Certainly not; it would be highly ad- vantageous to have such a body of gentlemen as visitors, and as a sort of consulting body. 1648. But you do not wish that they should be responsible for details? — No. 1649. You object to them as an administrative body, and approve of them as a consulting body ? — Quite. I should say, further, that my opinion is very much strengthened by the materials of which our committee is comprised. You cannot have a better set of gentlemen ; you have gentle- men of high birth and the highest education ; men who have most highly distinguished themselves in science, literature, and the arts. You have likewise men of the world and practical men of business ; yet, after all, they are but a committee, and conse- quently have various and conflicting opinions. 1650. You have spoken about dividing the British Museum into three different institutions ; would you propose that each institution should have internal regulations of its own, irrespective of the others ? — Certainly. 1651. Do you think that any injury arises at present from the uniformity of the rules in all the departments ?— That is exceedingly inconve- nient. 1652. Can you give the Committee _ any in- stance 1 To begin with our attendants ; it is very convenient in the library that they should be dis- tributed into classes, because they have different 0.96. descriptions of work to do; but distributing our attendants into classes is perfectly unreasonable, because a man who comes in to-day has exactly the same work to do as a man who has been there 20 years ; he does not do it quite so well, but still it is the same sort of work. Our atten- dants are perhaps an inferior class of men to the attendants in the library, and the consequence is, that either one man must rise beyond his merits, or others must be restricted below their merits. 1653. The duties of the officers of the antiquity department are quite different from those of the library ? — Yes, the officers ought to have had a good school and university education ; they should be classical scholars. 1654. The education which is required in the antiquity department is very different from that which is required in other departments ? — It is, and it requires a more difficult and a more expen- sive training. 1655. Although the class of persons that you require in the antiquity department is from their education necessarily superior, I may say, to the assistants in many of the other departments, no rules as to the discipline, occupation, salaries, absence, or anything else are allowed to be ap- plied to the department of antiquities, unless they can also be applied to the other departments? — No. That is the case ; and therefore we consider that our officers are kept back ; being few they might have advantages which it might not be thought convenient to extend to a very large class. 1656. If the management of the British Mu- seum should continue as it is at present, do you think the heads of departments ought to be present when the business of their department was under discussion? — I think it would tend greatly to the advantage of the Museum if the heads of departments were always present when their reports were read. 1657. You would recommend that every officer should uniformly be called in to read his own report to the trustees ? — Yes. 1658. Are you aware whether those reports are always read or not ? — I presume they are. 1659. If any difficulty arises connected with the report, if ,the officer were present he could explain it himself to the Board? — Yes, that would be a great advantage ; and it woidcl prevent his report being misunderstood. 1660. A great deal of time would be saved by a viva voce explanation ? — I think it would save a great deal of time, because the matter would be begun and ended at once. 1661. Then I presume you entirely adopt the observation of Mr. Panizzi in 1848, that difficul- ties would be removed, and business facilitated by the presence of the officers at the Board ? — Yes. 1662. Do you think it would be advisable for the purpose of advancing science and art, and a proper exhibition of the collections of the Mu- seum, that the assistants in the department of antiquities should be occasionally allowed to travel ? — Very great advantage would be derived from it ; it Avould make them better acquainted with the museums of other countries ; it would enable them to see numbers of collections, both public and private, but I think it should be under certain restrictions ; they should be compelled to report on what they have seen. 1663. Do you ever derive any assistance in your department from Mr. Newton, or Mr. Birch, or Mr. Oldfield having travelled, and visited collec- q 2 i- tions E. Hawkira,. Esq. 25 June i860. 124 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E. Hawkins, tions in foreign museums ? — Yes ; we have re- Esq. ceived very valuable information in that way. " 16G4. You would wish the officers to report 25 June specially on the foreign museums as to their con- 1 °6°' tents and their arrangement? — Yes; I think it should be a condition of their being allowed or ordered to travel that they did make reports. 1665. An officer thus travelling might be ena- bled to know of a number of objects which might be likely to come into the market ?— Yes, those officers you have named have given information to the trustees of several valuable objects which might be obtained. 1666. The officer would also naturally be able to maintain communication with many of our con- sular agents who might be upon the spot where desirable objects could be procured? — If our con- sular and foreign agents were at all accpaainted with the subject, they might give very valuable information. 1667. In your opinion, in case it should be con- ceived desirable to remove either the natural history collections or the collections of antiquities to another part of London, say, to Kensington, which, in your opinion, would be the most appro- priate collection to be removed ? — The architect would have much more to say to that than any- body else ; but if we remain where we are, as I have stated, owing to the kind of space that we require, great architectural alterations must be made even in the building which now exists, be- sides the additions which would have to be made to it. 1668. Do you see strong objections to the re- moval of the antiquities to Kensington ? — I should not like to separate them from the locality where they now are ; I think it is very central for visi- tors, and it is very desirable that we should be in close approximation to the library, although in- dependent of it. 1669. Sir Philip Egerton.] How is the light with reference to the new Assyrian room on the basement floor, which is No. 5 on the map ? — It is not at all good. 1670. Is that a side light or a skylight ? — Sky- light. 1671. Is that defect of light in consequence of the defect of construction?-- The light at present is too general ; the objects which are exhibited there being bas-reliefs, require a very acute light. A diffused light does not show them off to ad- vantage. 1672. Do you think that defect could be re- medied?--! think it would be difficult ; because it is a light which comes between two high build- ings, so that it is not a very good light to begin with. 1673. By altering the angle of the skylights, could you produce an angle of light which would be more satisfactory ?— As far as I recollect, it would be difficult in our room, because the sculp- tures are arranged in two rows; I doubt very much whether you could regulate the light very well there. 1674. They are very peculiar sculptures which you have arranged there, and which required a very peculiar light ? — Yes. 1675. Are there not many detached parts of the Museum collections which might be very well seen in such a light?— The worthless part. 1676. Take, for instance, the ethnographical col- lection? — That you may do what you please with. 1677. Take also the mammalian and the natural history collections ? — That I have nothing to do with. 1678. The light would be very good for those, would it not ? — I do not know. 1679. You object to the light for the particular objects which are there arranged? — Yes. 1680. Do you not think it would be a very good mode of utilising that space by covering it over with light and making it available for exhi- hibition ? — It was a sort of resource to which we were driven by necessity ; it has injured the light, to a certain degree, of the basement galleries on each side, such as galleries No. 4 and No. 6. 1681. Provided that gallery did not occupy that ground, the ground would be useless and un- occupied ? — It would be useless, excej>t for light and air ; the gallery, being used as it is now, ob- structs the light from those two side rooms. 1682. Do you mean that it obstructs the light from the side rooms in the basement? — Yes. 1683. Does it obstruct the light of the rooms above the basement? — No, certainly not. 1684. Space being very scarce in this locality, do you see any objection why a similar gallery might not be constructed in the vacant space to the north of the present gallery? — I think it would still be liable to the same objection; it would be between two higher buildings ; the light would be very imperfect. 1685. That light might be very good for store rooms, and for the purpose of unpacking ?— Yes. 1686. Would not that space be lost if it were not covered over and converted to the use it now is ? — Yes ; it would be useful for certain purposes, but not for exhibition rooms. 1687. That is for the exhibition of antiquities ? — No. 1688. In your report dated the 7th July 1858, you state, " If it be determined that the natural history collections should remain in the Museum, and that they require, or may soon require, new buildings, the ground on the north side is their proper domain, whilst the antiquities as naturally claim the west" Do you agree to that?— Yes. 1689. You further state, " To facilitate the accomplishment of the work which will become increasingly expensive every year that it is de- layed, Mr. Hawkins would further suggest that it might be possible to commence it without even destroying any of the houses in Charlotte- street, but simply purchasing their sites. For as the series most needing accommodation is the Greek which, including the Lycian, is next in order to the Assyrian, a long strip taken from the bottom of the gardens immediately to the west of the cart way, would provide space for the Greek galleries whilst the houses themselves, standing at a dis-' tance of more than 40 feet to the west, mio-ht re- main though diminished in value, till the demands 01 other series required the appropriation of the whole ground Whenever desired bv the trus- tees, Mr. Hawkins is prepared to show, by a de- tailed plan how this step might be reconciled both with the existing arrangement of the collec- tions, and with their ultimate re-arrangement upon alarger design." lou are still of that opinion? • im ^J"\ Sh ? rt ' if Gov ernment obtained posses- sion of the land to the west of the present build- ing, you apprehend that you would find ample space not only to exhibit your present collections, but also to provide for the increase of many years to come ?— Yes, I think we might. 1691. With reference to purchases, what do you mean SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 125 mean by " greater latitude ; " do you mean that you should be allowed to have the disposal of the whole 3,000 1. ?— I think the disposal of the whole 3,000 1, should be left to the department. 1692. Should you determine how that money might be spent ? — Yes. 1693. I think you say that you are responsible to the trustees for the arrangement ? — Yes. 1694. When you spoke of the interference of the trustees with your department, are you aware of the responsibility imposed upon the trustees by the Act of Parliament under which they act ? — No; I only know that the mode of proceeding now is very different from what it was. 1695. Are you not aware that the Act of Par- liament renders them responsible to Parliament and the country for the due administration of their trust ? — All the responsibility might be completely preserved without their entering into details. 1696. Are the trustees responsible to Parlia- ment and to the public, or are they not ? — I really do not know. 1697. Supposing the trustees to be responsible to Parliament and to the public for the conserva- tion of the objects which have been bequeathed, and remitted to their care, do you not consider that what you term " interference," has been sug- gested by their desire to act to the best of their ability in the discharge of the duty imposed upon them ? — I certainly believe that they do discharge it to the very best of their ability ; but I think that any interference by them is injurious to the management of the departments. 1698. When you speak of interference, do you allude to any transaction between the trustees and yourself with reference to the colour of the marble for pedestals for busts, for instance? — That is one instance, certainly. 1699. Is it, or is it not the fact, that you ordered a considerable number of those pedestals without the sanction of the trustees ? — They had the ex- press sanction of the trustees. There were first only two specimen pedestals ; a round and another pedestal were made. The attention of the trustees was personally directed to it ; they saw them, they approved of them, and sanctioned the order. 1700. Were you ordered to have specimens prepared for the inspection of the trustees ? — Yes. 1701. After an inspection of those specimens, did you receive instructions to order the large number of pedestals which you required ? — Yes. 1702. Was the effect of those pedestals satis- factory to the public? — I believe, very much so. 1703. Did you hear any complaint from the public ? — I heard great approbation of them ; I never heard any objection to them. 1704. And had you consulted any artists or sculptors with reference to the effect of the busts placed on a monotonous series of pedestals of that description ? — I know that Sir Charles Eastlake, one of our trustees, approved of them ; he said they were unobtrusive, and were adapted to the purpose. 1705. Were you at all examined with reference to these marbles before the sub-committee of an- tiquities 1 — No, I do not recollect, I am sure ; all I recollect is, that the order was sanctioned by the trustees, after the trustees had seen and ap- proved of the pedestals. 1706. The execution of the pedestals was post- poned ; was there not a misunderstanding with reference to these pedestals, between the minute 0.96. of the trustees and your apprehension of it ? — No, E. Hawkins, I think not. Esq. 1707. How do you account for the order being ~~ countermanded? — I know that the order was 25 8 "!. une countermanded; but it was afterwards allowed l 6o ' to be completed, and then the further progress stopped. 1708. Have you any person in your depart- ment who has studied sculpture as an art, or has any knowledge of sculpture as an art, having been through the studios of any sculptors? — No, I think not. 1709. Do you not think that the trustees were fully justified in asking the opinion of an eminent sculptor, such as Sir Richard Westmacott, with reference to the arrangement of the marbles ? — x es. 1710. Do you not think an amicable conference between the head of a department and an eminent sculptor might tend very much to increase the scientific value and artistic effect of the arrange- ment of the marbles ? — That has always been so ; I constantly consulted Sir Richard Westmacott. 1711. How do you reconcile that with th© answer which you have given the Chairman, with, reference to Sir Richard Westmacott's operations in the Museum ? — That was with regard to the arrangement of the Lycian room alone. 1712. I understood that in your former answer you did not intend to complain of Sir Richard Westmacott's opinion being asked as to any other part of the Museum, with the exception of the Lycian room? — I have not the least objection, but I very much desire that it should be asked on all occasions. There has been the most perfect understanding between Sir Richard Westmacott and myself since I have been in the Museum ; the difference of opinion was decidedly with regard to the Lycian room. 1713. Mr. Tite.] I understood you to say, that you wanted 62,000 superficial feet in addition ? — Yes. 1714. Has that reference to the probable exten- sion of the collection for any period of time, and if so for how long ? — No, only with reference to what we have now ; with those little trifling addi- tions that may be made by the acquisition of a single object. 1715. Has this additional space reference to the chronological arrangement, or to what objects would you apply this additional space ? — Every room is inconveniently crowded with objects of antiquity ; for instance, the Greco-Roman room, No. 10, is a long narrow gallery, with Greco- Roman antiquities : they are all placed so that it is impossible to see properly any one of them. 1716. Is the Elgin gallery inconveniently crowded in your judgment ? — No. 1717. You do not want anv space for that ? — No. 1718. Is the Egyptian gallery crowded? — No; not the large gallery. 1719. You are asking for an acre and a half of new space in round figures? — The room I re- ferred to, No. 10, is very much crowded and wants double the space. 1720. What is the length of that room ? — It is about 70 feet long. 1721. What is the width?— About 18 feet, which is too narrow. 1722. That is a very small space to double ? — There is a room below which has to be provided for. 1723. However, you have gone through it, and Q 3 f- it 126 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E. Hawkins, it is your belief that 62,000 additional feet are Esq. necessary for showing the collections which you have ?— For the adequate exhibition of what we 25 June now have. . i860. 1 72 4. Without connecting the ethnology with it ? — Yes, including the ethnology. 1725. You have referred to the flint and bronze instruments? — We should want some space for those, but taking it generally, that would be sufficient. 1726. Supposing your collection is to increase, must we add something to the 62,000 feet of which you have spoken? — We should have the power of using the ground around it. We need not occupy it at present We should have the epace. 1727. You desire that this 62,000 feet should be lighted by skylights ? — Yes. 1728. Is not that a question of degree; is it not that you would desire to have skylights if you could get them ? — A great number of our sculp- tures could not be adequately shown without sky- lights. 1729. Is that the case with all? — With the whole of the department. 1730. With all the objects? — No; not with all the objects. I am speaking principally of the sculptures. 1731. If you want an acre and a half of ground, which is to be lighted by skylights, that involves the necessity of having nothing over it? — Cer- tainly. 1732. Would it not be possible in all cases to put something over it ? — Not if sculpture is to be put in ; you cannot exhibit sculpture properly ex- cept by a skylight. 1733. Not the class of sculpture which is in your rooms? — No. 1734. That is your opinion? — Yes; it is very awkward to do so. 1735. It may be undesirable to have any light except skylight? — Yes; I should say very un- desirable. 1736. What do you mean when you say that the new Assyrian room on the basement floor, which is lighted by a skylight, is inconveniently lighted? — Yes; the light is too diffuse for the reception of peculiar objects which require an ex- tremely acute light, being bas-reliefs. 1737. Would they not be better lighted by a side light? — No; you would not see them at all- 1738. Not if they were opposite? — No; the Assyrian galleries, on the other hand, are narrow rooms, where the skylight is arranged so as to throw the light very acutely indeed on the sculptures. 1739. At present the Elgin gallery is lighted from the ceiling ; how is the Egyptian gallery lighted ? — The Egyptian gallery is lighted from the sides, and the Egyptian objects are put into that gallery, because it was pronounced that that very gallery, which was originally intended by Sir Eobert Smirke to hold the Greek and Roman sculpture, was found perfectly unfit for the purpose. 1740. Do you mean that Sir Robert Smirke built a room which was unfit for the object for which it was intended ? — I am afraid so. 1741. Do you think so ? — Yes. 1742. In the Museum there is no artificial light used for the purpose of exhibition? — Yes; the basement storeys are in a great degree lighted by reflectors. 1743. But not by gas ? — No. 1744. It would appear that the Etruscan anti- quities, which came from the tombs, might be conveniently lighted by gas? — Yes, they might be, if you chose to trust gas into your public museum. 1745. With regard to the question as to the busts and the pedestals, what did those pedestals cost ? — I do not recollect. 1746. How much each ?— I do not recollect. 1747. What is the material of which they are composed ? — Derbyshire marble. 1748. Was that sum of money, whatever it was, at all included in the grant which you have spoken of, of 3,000/., or was it beyond that ?— That grant of 3,000/. is appropriated exclusively to the purchase of the objects for exhibition. 1749. With regard to those busts, would it have been possible to have put some of them on walls, instead of all them on a row of pedestals ? — That might have been done, but we thought it better to put them on a row of pedestals ; it is merely a matter of taste. 1750. Was it your opinion, or any one else's, that it was desirable to arrange them as they are ? — Yes, it was my opinion, and the opinion of my brother officers. 1751. As the catalogue of M. Fould's collection, of which you spoke, only reached you two days before the sale, in point of fact, I suppose it was impossible for you from that circumstance, to have bought any articles in that collection ? — It might have been possible, if we were independent of the trustees, to have rushed over to Paris to have seen it. 1752. An application of that kind could have been made to the trustees under the present system ? — No, not by any possibility. 1753. Could you not have got a special meet- ing ? — We had not time to do so. 1754. I do not understand that, because if you had two days you might have got a special meet- ing ? — It is very difficult to get a special meeting. 1755. There exists no machinery by which it could have been done ? — No, I think not. 1756. With regard to the Halicarnassian mar- bles, is the position in which they are placed merely temporary ? — It is a matter of necessity ; there was not a single yard of space elsewhere in the Museum where then they could be put. 1757. Chairman.'] In your estimate of the space that you require for the exhibition of your present collection of antiquities, do you assign any considerable amount of space to the exhibi- tion of the marbles from Halicarnassus ? — Yes, we include that in the space required. 1758. Do you consider that it will be neces- sary to exhibit the greater portion of the mar- bles which have come from Halicarnassus ?— The greater portion certainly ; there are some frag- ments which need not be publicly exhibited. 1759. Do you think it would be necessary to exhibit all the inscriptions which have come from Halicarnassus ?— It is not necessary to put those inscriptions in any public exhibition room ; but they should be arranged in some rooms which are perfectly accessible if they are required to be seen ; they require a good light too. 1760. Have you calculated for the exhibition of these inscriptions in the estimate you have given to the Committee of the number of feet you require ?-Yes, they are included in some part of this calculation. 1761. Do you not think that although Mr. Newton SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BKITISH MUSEUM. I 27 Newton was fulty justified in sending over a great number of these marbles, yet, at the same time, that it would be advisible not to exhibit the greater portion of them? — It would be quite advisable to exhibit the greater portion of them. There are some portions which need not be exhi- bited, because they are not of sufficient interest, but they have a certain degree of interest from the localities from which they come. 1762. Mr. Tite.~] I presume, in your opinion, there should be a weeding of a mass of marbles of that kind, and you would only exhibit those which you considered would be generally inte- resting ? — I should weed them, certainly, and put some of them into a place where they are not ex- hibited to the public. 1763. Is it never the case that the head of a department is called in before the meeting of the trustees, or is it entirely referred to the care and conduct of the principal librarian? — No, the officers and the heads of departments are fre- quently called in. 1764. Have you 3'ourself been frequently called in ? —Very frequently. 1765. You desire only, as I understand you, that those opportunities should be increased ; in point of fact, they do exist, but you think that it should be made a constant rule ? — Yes ; the trustees, I think, send for the officers when they require them, and when they wish to ask any ques- tions. The head of the department should always be present in the committee-room when his own report is read, in order that he may explain any- thing that is not understood. 1766. You want that which is now the excep- tion made into the rule ? — They are totally differ- ent things. We are never called in to hear our own reports read ; but if there is any point which the trustees wish to ask any questions about, then we are called in. My object would be, that the head of the department should be called in as a matter of course ; whenever his report is about to be read, his presence should be required, so that he might hear it read, and might be ready to explain any circumstance upon which the trustees might require explanation. 1767. Have you frequently been called in? — Very frequently, almost every meeting. 1768. Mr. Ayrton.~\ Can you state, in detail, the requirements of space, making up the 122,000 feet ?— In what kind of detail ? 1769. The purpose for which the space is re- quired, showing each particular class of objects ? — This is a list of the various objects ; Egyptian, large and small objects united, 25,000 square feet Assyrian, large, and small objects united, 14,500 square feet. Persepolitan sculptures, 250 square feet, Lycian, exclusive of Graeco-Lycian, large and small objects united, 2,736 square feet. Greek sculptures, 27,500 square feet. Etruscan tombs and sculptures, 3,250 square feet. Graco-Roman sculpture, 6,000 square feet. Eoman sculptures and mosaics, 7,000 square feet. Anglo-Roman sculptures and mosaics, 1,750 square feet. Phoe- nician sculptures, 750 square feet. Oriental sculptures, 1,500 square feet. Mexican and Peru- vian sculptures, 750 square feet. Painted vases, 6,000 square feet. Terracottas, 1,500 square feet. Glass, 750 square feet. Bronzes, 2,500 square feet. Gems, ivories, gold ornaments, &c, 750 square feet. Coins and medals for public ex- hibition, 750 square feet. Coins and medals for private exhibition, 750 square feet. Coins and 0.96. medals for preservation and arrangement, 1,250 E. Hawkins, square feet. British small antiquities, 3,000 square Esq. feet. Medieval antiquities, 3,000 square feet. Ethnograpical collection, 10,000 square feet. a 5 J une 1770. Have you a calculation of the present 1060. space allotted under those- different heads ? — This is what we require for the adequate exhibition of all that we have got. 1771. That makes a grand total of 122,000 square feet?— Yes, somewhat under. 1772. Have you got a statement of the amount v of space now used under each of those heads, and the division which you propose to make of each of those heads ? — It is not stated in that way. 1773. Can you favour the Committee with a statement showing the amount of space now used under ea.ch of those heads, and the addition which you propose to make to it ? — I can have it made out. 1774. You will observe in Mr. Panizzi's report, dated the 10th of November 1857, that nut of 60,866 feet which you then had for antiquities, there were on the ground floor, 39,334 feet, and on the upper floor 21,532 feet, making a total, exclusive of the basement, of 60,866 feet ; can you tell how much of the present extension of space is for the exhibition of objects now shown on the upper floor, and how much for objects now shown on the ground floor ? — Yes ; I shall be able to set that out. 1775. You, I presume, have visited the prin- cipal galleries of Europe ? — No, I have not myself. 1776. Have you visited any of them? — The Paris ones I have. 1777. Are you aware that in Paris the finest objects of sculpture are exhibited with side lights ? — Yes, I know that they are. What they are going to do now I do not know. While I was there they were complaining very much of the way in which the things were ordered, and of the whole arrangement and management. The gal- leries were considered as apartments belonging to a palace, and the statues were set up after a pic- turesque order. The keepers were very much dissatisfied with that, and I believe they have since that been making alterations. 1778. Are not the windows in that museum rather small, as compared with the size of the rooms ? — Yes. 1779. You do not know that in all the other galleries of Europe all the objects are exhibited by side lights ? — No. 1780. Do you not think the question of side lights a good deal depends upon the size of the windows, and the amount of light which is let in at the side of the rooms ? — It is dependent in some degree upon that ; but I do not think any side light would exhibit the things well. 1781. Were the Assyrian objects originally put into rooms with side lights, as decorations ? — That was impossible, because the Assyrian palaces had no side lights. 1782. Do you not think that they were origin- ally for the decoration of rooms that had only side lights ? — In any remains that we have, there is no appearance of windows at all ; we do not know at all how they were lighted. 1783. Do you not think that a room with one side entirely open to the light would admit light enough to show any reliefs on the wall? — That depends very much upon the arrangement. If there were a row of windows there, you would have a great variety of lights on each object. q 4 -1- 1784. Supposing 128 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E. Hawkins, 17g4 _ g U pp 0gmgj i n f actj that the room was its: I- entirely open, do you not think that there would j une be light enough to exhibit any objects on the win- 1860. dows -'—That would not be a good light. 1785. Have you any difficulty in seeing an ob- ject on the wall here ? — I should be very sorry to see a fine statue there (pointing to the wall facing the windows). 1786. Do you see any difficulty in looking at that fine wood carving or stone carving on the wall ? — The stone carving is a bas-relief. 1787- Do you see any difficulty in looking at it ? — I should treat it as a matter of indifference whether I saw it or not. 1788. Do you not think that that is light enough for the purpose of exhibiting any objects ? — It may be light enough; but it is not the right quality of light. A bas-relief requires a side light. 1789. Supposing it is on the side of the object? — If it was a well-lighted room, where you have got a strong light, then it would do very well for bas-reliefs. It is on that principle that the Assyrian bas-reliefs are arranged, with a sharp acute light on them. 1790. Mr. Tite.~\ In painting a portrait, the painter does not put his sitter under a skylight, or a modeller in modelling a bust ? — The artist always places his sitter in a particular position, with a strong light from one window. 1791. Mr. Ayrton.~\ With regard to your gal- leries which are lighted by side lights, is there not a very small amount of side light, as com- pared with the depth of the room ; are not the windows comparatively small and high? — The side lights that we have are chiefly in the Egyp- tian rooms, and there are lights on each side of the room. 1792. Are not those window spaces small as compared with the breadth and size of the room, and not in proportion ?— Yes, they are. 1793. They are not carried from the ceiling down to the floor ? — No. 1794. Are not the windows so high from the floor as not to admit the light fairly into the room? — The room is entirely and totally unfit for fine sculpture. On the side where the statue is placed, it receives no light whatever from the windows on that side, except a casual glimpse of a back light, which confuses the statues, and if you place a statue opposite it would receive light in various degrees from seven different windows. 1795. In your gallery, have you not a number of objects so simple, that they do not want much -light for the purpose of examining them ? — It is for that reason that we put the Egyptian sculp- tures into this gallery. 1796. Are there not objects exhibited there that really do not want any fine light to look at them? — There certainly are objects which it does not signify much what light you have upon them, but, generally speaking, if a thing is worth exhi- biting, it is worth exhibiting in a good light. 1797. Would you find any difficulty, supposing it were a question of using the side liglit, in so arranging your objects in the gallery, that those objects which required comparatively little light might be put where there was less light; and those which required a full light on them, such ss busts, might be put opposite windows? — Our objects are arranged scientifically ; we put all our Vennses together, so that there must be a Yenus of inferior workmanship near to another of fine work; the Venuses must all be pretty nearly in the same kind of light. 1798. There is no difficulty in putting the Venuses in a lighter part of the room? — We cannot positively arrange them in that way, because a Venus must come in in her own proper place in the mythological series. 1799. Have you made any reference to the arrangement of wall space in calculating the areas you have given ? — I have done it, but it would seem to me, that it conveys no idea whatever to the Committee ; I have not brought it with me ; if you give us the area, we shall get the wall space. 1800. Is it desirable that there should be a library in connexion with the exhibition of anti- quities ? — Certainly ; Ave have one. 1801. Have you a departmental library? — I have a departmental library. 1802. Independent of the general library ? — Yes. 1803. Is that for public use? — No, for the use of the department alone. 1804. Does that contain all the expensive illus- trated works connected with art? — Not all of them; we are gradually accumulating them. 1805. Why do you require a special library for yourselves, when there is the library of the British Museum close at hand ? — Because any book that we have from the public library we are liable to have called away ; we want it con- tinuously, but now we are subject to the inter- ruption of having it called away elsewhere, which is a great impediment to us ; we also want to go to a book, and consult it for five minutes, and put it by again. 1806. Mr. Tite.] Have you that great work on the Vatican, " De Vaticano," in eight or ten volumes folio, separately from the great library ? — I do not think we have got that. 1807. Mr. Ayrton.] Do you keep all the works of an ethnographical character ? — No. 1808. Those are in the general library ? — Yes ; an ethnographical library would include every volume of voyages and travels which has been published. What we want to keep in our depart- ment are the tools that we want to work with. 1809. Then, for all other works, it is necessary to refer to the general library ? — Yes ; it is a great advantage to have such a library within reach. 1810. In point of fact, the collection illustrates the objects, and the books are necessary to under- stand the collection ? — Yes. 1811. And the one, separated from the other, would be a disadvantage to both ? — Yes ; with regard to the books, which are the tools to work with, those we require to have to ourselves. 1812. Are not the practical works a very limited collection of books ?— No ; it is rather an extensive one, because a great number are very large works in themselves, and very expensive. 1813. Mr. Tite.'] Does that apply to the books containing coins and gems ? — Yes. 1814. Mr. Ayrton!] Is it a matter of much in- terest that the collection of engravings, for example, should be in the neighbourhood of the works of art, and the antiquities ?— It is in some degree, but not very essential to our depart- ment. x 1815. For the purpose of study and research ?— JS o, not particularly. 1816. Mr. Hardy.] I understood you to say that SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 129 that you wished the departments to be separated ? — Yes, 1817. And, as I understood, you objected to have one head over the three departments ? — Yes, I think it is better not. 1818. You stated that the reason for that was, on account of the delay in carrying out what was necessary ; will you be good enough to explain what delay takes place in having the business conducted by the heads of the three deparments ? — If I had one head, and that head were one person, I do not care whether he has another de- partment or not. 181,9. Can you say that there is any delay through the principal librarian having so much business to attend to ? — I think there is delay in consequence of the great increase of business. 1820. What kind of delay? — If I make a re- port upon any particular subject to the trustees, I do not get an answer to that report for some time. 1821. Supposing there has been a meeting of the trustees in the meantime, do you not hear anything in respect of your report after that meeting ? — Yes, but there are so many minutes to be made in consequence of that meeting, that the answer to my questions does not come to me immediately, perhaps not until four or five days, or a week afterwards. 1822. But still you do get your answer as soon as the Board has met? — No, this delay takes place after the trustees have met ; necessarily, in making out the minutes, there is a certain time occupied. 1823. Have the trustees ever refused to act on a report of yours without communicating with you ? — That has been done, certainly. 1824. Without any consultation with you ? — Yes. 1825. How long ago? — I do not think it has taken place in anything much of importance ; it does take place. 1826. You are not able to give me an in- stance ?— There was an instance of some anti- quities which I purchased, and I requested the sanction of the trustees to the purchase, and that purchase was hesitated about for several weeks, before I got an answer. 1827. Sir Philip Egerton.] Will you specify what that purchase was ? — It was the purchase of some antiquities that were brought over by some Italian gentlemen. 1828. Did the trustees refuse to purchase with- out conferring with you on the subject? — No; they did not actually refuse it, but they kept me several weeks without giving an answer. 1829. Did they confer with you on the sub- ject ? — No. 1830. Mr. Hardy.'] But eventually they ac- cepted the purchase ? — Yes. 1831. My question was, have they ever re- fused to act on one of your reports, without giving you an opportunity of explanation? — Yes; I can give an instance of that ; I recollect the purchase that was made at the time of the Great Exhibition. It was particularly desired by seve- ral antiquaries that the objects should be pur- chased for the British Museum. I did purchase them, but the trustees rejected the purchase with- out any consultation with me at all. , 1832. Sir Philip Egerton.'] What purchase was that? They were some silver ornaments that came from the centre of Africa, and which we 0.96. 25 June ia6o. wanted to have, because they were particularly E. Hawkins, illustrative of objects that are found occasionally Esq. in England, and along the shores of the Baltic, and which were evidently made in the ninth and tenth centuries. 1833. Mr. Hardy.] What expense were they ? —About 30/. or 357. 1834. You have a great variety of antiquities in your charge ? — Yes. 1835. Is there any special subject of antiquities to which you have directed more particular atten- tion than the rest? — Yes, numismatics. 1836. You are keeper of the whole? — Yes. 1837. You proposed, as I understood you, that the whole grant should be left in the hands of the keeper for the purpose of purchasing ? — -Yes. 1838. Do you not think that there would be considerable risk, where the keeper had a particu- lar partiality for one kind of antiquities, that he would expend more money upon that class than he would upon other classes? — He would be in dan- ger of displaying that kind of partiality ; but the common practice is, to consult all the officers who have their different departments, and who are responsible to the upper authority. 1839. Do you not think that it is desirable, where there are mixed antiquities of this kind, to have some consultative body, or some directing body, which should judge what kind of antiqui- ties it would be preferable to purchase? — We have that already in the trustees. 1840. You wish to act, as I understand, with- out consulting the trustees? — Yes, because we find the inconvenience of having the trustees to consult. The trustees are a large body ; some- times some meet, and at the next meeting there is a different set of trustees who meet ; they have their partialities, as you may suppose the head of the department would have, and those are ex- ercised according to the persons who hapjJen to be present at the meeting at the time the thing is proposed. 1841. You spoke of the Elgin marbles; has any arrangement been come to as to the way in which they are to be exhibited now ? — A general arrangement has been agreed upon ; it is only the details of the arrangement which are not settled. 1842. That question is settled now, is it not 1 —No. 1843. Considering the space that you have at your command, is it, in your judgment, used to the best advantage ? — At present ? 1844. Have the trustees in any way interfered with your arrangement, upon the space which you have at your command, so as to make it less available than it ought to be? — No; I do not think they have, except in those points which you have just referred to, the Elgin room, and the pedestals. 1845. As a matter of fact, with regard to the Elgin marbles, there is room for them, but the mode of arranging them has been under discus- sion ? — Yes. 1846. With respect to the pedestals, have you got the things which are to be exhibited upon them ? — Yes. 1847. Mr. Puller.] But you have not as many as you want? — No. 1848. With respect to the arrangement of the Elgin marbles, has there not been a general feel- ing, both on the part of the trustees, and of the heads of the departments, that some considerable E, change MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE . Hawkins, Esq. 25 June i860. change is likely to take place from the extension of the Museum before long 1- Not with regard to the Elgin marbles. 1849. Not simply with regard to the Elgin marbles, but with respect to the whole Museum ? —Yes. 1850. Might it not be reasonable that the trustees should put off making some new arrange- ment of the Elgin marbles, which would be at- tended with some expense, while the larger ques- tion of the extension of the Museum was still undecided and in suspense .' — That might be so ; I do not contemplate any alteration to be made in the rooms ; but I might suppose, if an alteration takes place, that the arrangement of the Elgin marbles would be altered. 1851. You have spoken of wishing to have parallel galleries on the groundfloor ; how many parallel galleries do you wish for ? — There are the Egyptian, the Assyrian, the Greek, the Roman, and the British; I should think six parallel lines at least. 1852. Of which you have now got three? — Yes, the Egyptian, Assyrian, and Greek , besides what there are in that line, there are a great num- ber of Assyrian down stairs. 1853. The British are upstairs? — Yes. 1854. Do you wish to bring them down? — Some of the British are upstairs, and some are down stairs. 1855. Are there any British down stairs? — On the groundfloor. 1856. The basement floor? — On the ground- floor, in room No. 3, immediately on the left-hand side, as you enter ; the objects under the windows are British. 1857. What are they; inscriptions? — They are chiefly sculptures and sarcophagi, 1858. Are they objects which require a sky- light ? — No, I do not think it signifies what light they are in ; they are of very rude workmanship, and they do not require a particularly good light. 1859. Would you require one of these skylights for the British antiquities ? — I think not. 1860. Then two additional parallel lines of gal- leries with skylights would be sufficient for you? — Yes, I think so. 1861. Upon some former occasion you expressed an opinion that the extension might be sufficient to the west, by taking a portion of the gardens, without disturbing the houses in Charlotte-street ? — Yes, that would be sufficient for the present. 1862. Have you formed any plan ? — No ; not any details. 1863. You have not, therefore, considered how you could find space to satisfy all your wants ? — I find that we could get space, which would leave still a small piece at the back of the houses. It would damage the houses ; but still we could get room enough. 1864. Supposing that building were carried all round this block of building for the natural his- tory collections, and the space between those buildings and the present Museum, devoted to the antiquities, in the manner which you propose, namely, parallel galleries with skylights, do you object to that going round the Museum to the north, as the collections are standing ? — Yes, very much. 1865. Why ? — It would interrupt our series. 1866. Not if it went round continuously? — I do not think it would be very easy to do it in that way even ; the west side gives us enough. 1867. You would propose to occupy the whole of the ground on the west ,side, between the Museum and Charlotte-street, for antiquities ? — Yes, that would be compact by itself. 1868. I understand that in this space of 122,000 feet, you include the coins ?— Yes, and the medal room. 1869. And the Mexican and Peruvian antiqui- ties?— Yes ; they would go to the ethnographical collection ; they are in basement room No. 3, and on the upper floor. •1870. Would they require a skylight? — No. 1871. Would the coins? — No, certainly not. 1872. Nor the inscriptions? — No, the inscrip- tions would not; they require, perhaps, side lights. 1873. Do you consider it desirable that the country should go on adding collection to collec- tion of ancient sculpture ? — Certainly. 1874. All you can get? — All we can get. 1875. And inscriptions the same? — And in- scriptions the same. 1876. With respect to the trustees; you said you wished the head of the department to have the disposition of the annual grant?— Yes. 1877. Would you give him that, without any veto on the part of the trustees ? — He would be responsible to the trustees ; but the waiting for their assent or dissent is the thing which throws an impediment in our way. 1878. He would be responsible, if he had power to do it without their consent?— If it were wrong he would be reprimanded for it, and care would be taken that he should not do so again, but a veto implies asking a question, and it is the asking the question that is the impediment. 1879. It is a mere question of delay then ? — A question of delay, and more than delay ; it is a question of getting it or not getting it. 1880. Except in certain cases, like the Fould collection, would it not be generally easy to con- sult the trustees before you commenced the nego- tiation? — I do not think the trustees have ever sanctioned a negotiation, except in the case of very large collections. 1881. If you reported to the trustees that you knew of a particular object, which it was desirable to purchase, but that it would require some ne- gptiation, do you think the trustees would refuse you permission to negotiate for the purchase ? — Yes, they require certain preliminaries ; first of all, they will not sanction any negotiation with- out they know the name of the person with whom we are to negotiate, and very frequently a person will not give his name, or will not allow his name to be known until the purchase is actually con- cluded. 1882. Your objection to that, is rather to the mode in which the trustees exercise their power, than to having the power ?— No ; it is their having the power. If I had the power to spend the money I could negotiate with the person, and complete the purchase. 1883. You think that the trustees should give you power to negotiate without all that interven- tion on their part?— Yes; there is a difficulty in negotiating without you are certain that your negotiation may be brought to a successful con- clusion, because at present, after you have nego- tiated, the trustees may refuse to confirm it. 1884. Presuming you could get the extension of the land to the west, would you cover the whole ground with buildings on the groundfloor, or SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. ■3 1 or would you leave space to light the stores down below ? — We should have a basement floor, but that is not an exhibition floor. 1885. Do you require any considerable exten- sion of space for storing purposes ? — No ; provided we get our collections out of the basement, I think we should have warehouse room enough. 1886. For all purposes of storing, would not dark cellars, which might be lighted by gas occa- sionally, answer the purpose ? — Packing and un- packing involves the necessity of straw and various combustible things, and in the basement storey we can always get light enough for that purpose from the sun. 1887. Is there any collection of Indian antiqui- ties ? — We have some in the ethnographical col- lection, but it is a very miserable selection. 1888. Is there any reason why we should not add to the Indian collection? — I think it is very desirable that we should have a very extensive collection. 1889. Have we any Indian manuscripts? — Yes, several. 1890. Mr. Ayrton.] Have you any copies of an- tique works ormodels in the collection at present, or are they all originals? — They are not all originals. There is a very considerable space of the Elgin frieze, of which we have only casts. The iEgina are all casts. 1891. How much space do you suppose is now given up to the exhibition of copies or casts ? — The casts that we have from the Elgin frieze are all casts from one end of the building. All the frieze from one end of the building are castings, and „ the pediments for the .ZEgina are also all casts. 1892. Do they occupy much space in the col- lections ? — They are all up against the walls ; they do not occupy any groundfloor. 1893. Have you any models exhibited? — I believe there are one or two models, which have been there ever since the commencement of the Museum. 1894, Do they occupy much space? — They are E. out of sight altogether, 1895. Do they occupy space that would be useful for any other purpose ? — They do not now, certainly. 1896. Have you not models of Greek temples exhibited ? — We have a model of the Parthenon, which is in the Elgin room ; that occupies a cer- tain space ; we have got two of them ; one of them is, I think, quite unnecessary ; but one is desirable as a sort of key to all the sculptures which are round the walls. There is in the Lycian room a model of the temple. 1897. Do you consider it a legitimate use of the British Museum to exhibit casts or models, except for the particular object of completing an imperfect series ? — No, we repudiate casts except they are for a particular purpose. We take in the casts of the Elgin frieze to complete the series, to complete the procession ; it would not be quite intelligible without it, 1898. You do not consider it correct as a gene- ral proposition, to exhibit any copies of works of antiquity ? — No ; generally speaking the trustees have repudiated casts, except for special purposes. 1899. Chairman.'] You stated that, in your opinion, it would be advisable to continue collect- ing inscriptions ; am I to understand that you would continue to collect homogeneous inscriptions for the British Museum; would you add to the collection of Roman sepulchral inscriptions ? — I do not know that they are of much use., but they do not occupy much space ; they merely contain a name and a date. 1900. Mr. Puller.'] May not that name and date supply just some point which was wanted in Roman history ? — We should take care not to let things go that we could suppose would possibly illustrate that ; I would not reject any inscriptions whatever. 1901. Mr. Tite.] Are not both Lycian and Phoenician inscriptions of great interest philo- logically ? — We do not let them go by at all ; we get as many of them as we can. Hawkins, £sq. 25 June i860. Edmund Oldfield, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 1902. Chairman.] You are Assistant in the Department of Antiquities, under Mr. Hawkins ? — Yes. 1903. You have been charged with the care of the Greek and Roman antiquities, I think, since the retirement of Mr. Newton, in 1852 ? — Yes. 1904. Have you at different times visited the principal foreign museums ? — Yes, I have. 1905. Have you visited the museums in Italy? — Yes ; I have visited, I think, every museum of, importance in Italy. 1906. Have you also visited the museums in France ? — Yes, 1907. And in Germany ? — Yes; I have visited most of the museums in Germany ; I have never been in Vienna. 1908. Have you studied the arrangement of those galleries? — I have made that a special duty. 1909. With a view to improving our own? — Certainly. 1910. You have visited those galleries since you have been connected with the British Mu- seum ? — Partly so ; some I had visited before, and some I have visited since I came to the 0.96. It was always a subject of special interest to me. 1911. Since you have been in the British Mu- seum, you have been particularly occupied with the collections of sculpture ? — Not quite since I have been connected with the British Museum, but since 1852. 1912. Have these collections been in great part re-arranged since that period of 1852 ? — Yes. 1913. Did you superintend the arrangement of the Egyptian galleries, and the Assyrian and Greco-Roman and Roman?— Yes. I prepared, with Mr. Hawkins's authority, the plans for the arrangement of the various sculptures, which were submitted to the trustees, and approved of by them, and then I superintended their execu- tion by the workmen. 1914. Was the arrangement of the Temple collection made by you ? — Yes, it was, entirely. 1915. And also the partial arrangement of the terra-cottas ? — Yes, so far as it has gone. 1916. In these arrangements, did you find that the rooms were suitable for the objects which had been placed in them ? — Generally I am afraid not very suitable. E 2 1917. Did E. Oldfield, Esq, 132 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E. Oldfield, 1917, Did that arise from the original plan of Es 1- the building being more intended for architec- ~~T~ tural symmetry than for exhibition ? — I think it 25 g g Une did. I should not say that it was not intended for exhibition, but I imagine that the special ap- plication of the various galleries was never settled before those galleries were constructed; the whole was laid down upon one general plan, in which perhaps symmetry was chiefly regarded.; and when objects were subsequently acquired, it was impossible to incorporate them in the existing galleries without placing many of those objects in rooms that were not adapted, either in point of proportions or lighting, for them. 1918. I think the principal sculpture gallery is a mere duplicate of the Royal library, is it not ? — The Egyptian gallery, which was the principal sculpture gallery when the west wing was first constructed, is nearly a duplicate of the Royal library. 1919. I presume the arrangements and use of a library are very different from those of a sculp- ture gallery ? — Undoubtedly, or from any other gallery intended for the purpose of exhibition. 1920. As that sculpture gallery is formed on one side of a square, it was not capable of ex- tension, I presume, in case the collection required expansion ? — No, not without a very great altera- tion of the building, which, practically, would have been impossible. 1921. In consequence of the expansion of the antiquities, you threw out wings, as it were, to the west, did yoii not ? — Yes ; the Elgin gallery was the first constructed, which may be called a wing to the west ; and subsequently, the Lycian gallery, which is of the same character. 1922. Do you think those rooms for the Lycian and the Elgin collections are sufficiently large for the proper arrangement of the sculptures con- tained within them ? — No, I think not. 1923. Mr. Puller.'] In what respects ; are they not wide enough ? — The principal difficulty in the case of the Elgin collection results from this, that the frieze which originally ran round the cella of the Parthenon is arranged round the Elgin room, and in the centre of the room were, until recently, two large groups of statues which occupied the two pediments. It is impossible to place those objects in an apartment of the present proportions without the pedimental figures interfering with the frieze, and the frieze with the pedimental figures. To avoid this, a gallery is required sufficiently spacious to allow of intervals being- made in the frieze, corresponding, I should say, to those parts which are lost of the original frieze, and in these the pedimental groups might be seen, with a proper back ground, not interfering witli the frieze, and not being interfered with by it ; but that is impossible in either of the present rooms. 1924. Chairman.] There were some small side galleries added, which, I think, were intended the one for Etruscan antiquities, and the other for prints ? — There were two side galleries, sometimes called lean-tos, which run parallel with the great Egyptian gallery, which were at one time intended for the purposes you speak of, but were never applied to those purposes. 1925. From want of space you were obliged to occupy those two small galleries which I have alluded to with the Assyrian collections ? — Yes. 1926. Do you think those small galleries are fit for the exhibition of the Assyrian sculptures ? I think they are fit for the exhibition of the bas-reliefs, but they are quite incapable^ of re- ceiving large sculptures in the round, which axe isolated from the bas-reliefs. I should observe also, that they are too small to accommodate the whole of the bas-reliefs. 1927. Mr. TiteJ] Are there any large Assyrian statues not exhibited ? — No. 1928. Chairman.] By their unsuitableness for the exhibition of the Assyrian sculptures, do you refer to the derangements of these collections which were afterwards caused by the acquisition, of what I may call the Rawlinson collection ? — I should hardly characterise the two galleries to which you have now referred as unfit for the exhibition of Assyrian sculptures. We have other rooms in which Assyrian sculptures are kept, which are, I think, exceedingly unfit ; and the placing in those rooms of the particular objects which they now contain causes a derange- ment of the scientific order of the whole Assyrian collection. 1929. Are you referring to the position in which the winged bulls are now placed ? — I refer principally to what is called the Assyrian transept, the eastern portion of which contains the whole of that group of antiquities which was discovered at Khorsabad. That room is very dark, and ex- hibits those objects very unsatisfactorily ; it com- prises, moreover, at its western end, an entirely heterogeneous class of sculptures, and causes the spectator to see at once Egyptian, Assyrian, and Graco-Roman objects, by which he is entirely confused. 1930. Have you the distinction in the exhi- bition which you would wish to have ? — No. 1931. Is there not also an objection to the present mode of exhibiting Assyrian sculptures with regard to their arrangement ; are they ar- ranged in that chronological order that you would wish ? — No, they are not. The Khorsabad group, to which I just now referred, may be called a group of the monuments of the king called Sar- gon, who was subsequent to the king called Sardanapalus, whose monuments are in the southern Assyrian gallery, whilst he was anterior to Sennacherib, whose monuments are in the northern Assyrian gallery. The chronological order would require that the Khorsabad group should have been interposed between the southern and the northern gallery, but the magnitude of the monuments made it next to impossible for them to be placed in the room which is between ; they are consequently placed in the transept at the southern extremity of the southern gallery ;. that is to say, they are placed anterior to the mo- numents of Sardanapalus, which really are the earliest of all. 1932. I presume that one of the chief causes of importance of the Assyrian collections is the insight that they give us into the chrono- logy of past times ? — I should hardly say that the sculptures give us much insight into chronology ; the chronology has principally been determined by the inscriptions, and having been so deter- mined, the chronological arrangement of the sculp- tures furnishes the means of illustrating the gra- dual development of Assyrian art. 1933. Are not many of these inscriptions on sculptures?— They are ; but the inscriptions from which the chronology has been chiefly interpreted are upon the terra-cotta tablets. 1934. How SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. *33 1934. How have the Egyptian sculptures been arranged ? — Chronologically. 1935. Has not the selection of the north-west locality for the Egyptian sculptures caused an in- verse arrangement of the collection, as far as re- gards the chronological arrangement 1 — Not only of the Egyptian sculptures, but, by consequence, of our entire collection. 1936. That is to say, you enter upon the latest period, and you go down to the earliest period r — Certainly ; the gallery which contains the earliest Egyptian monuments was the first constructed in the whole department of antiquities ; at the same time, it is the furthest from the entrance of the museum ; therefore, being placed in that remoter locality, it involved the consequence that the more recent antiquities should be placed nearer ; and, as we were unable to remove the difficulty altogether, we considered that, on the whole, it was better to adopt what you call " an inverse arrangement," so as to allow the spectator, com- mencing with the latest, to ascend gradually to the earliest. I consider that that is to be re- gretted in a scientific point of view ; but it was the best arrangement which the circumstances admitted of. 1937. Could what you consider to be a sub- ject of regret be now remedied ? — I think it could be remedied, undoubtedly ; probably, the best mode of remedying it would be the adoption of a suggestion that has been made by Mr. Panizzi, in a report of his, which has been published, re- commending the removal of the principal stair- case which is now to the left of the entrance-hall, .and the conversion of the space thus obtained into a gallery for antiquities, which would open into what is now called the Assyrian transept. If, then, the Egyptian collection were extended 'through the Assyrian transept across this new opening to the entrance-hall, the earliest monu- ments might be placed in the room so formed, the mouments of the 18th dynasty in the succeeding rooms ; the monuments of the 1 9th dynasty, in- cluding the great head of Barneses II., would remain where they are, as the pivot of the col- lection ; and the later monuments, which are now in the Southern Egyptian Gallery, could be trans- ferred to the Northern Egyptian Gallery, and in this way the chronological arrangement might be made more accnrate. 1938. Would that change in the Egyptian col- lection, in your opinion, involve a very great ex- pense in removing them ? — I think not ; of course, *' great " and " small " are relative terms, but Avith reference to the value of the collection and the interest which the public take in it, I do not think that the expense would be at all dispro- • portionate. 1939. I think the removal of the head of Thothmes III. a few feet from its present position /was supposed to involve an expenditure of 70 /. ; do you recollect whether that was the case or not ? — I think I recollect the case to which you allude, but the Committee will be exceedingly misled if they adopt that as a criterion of the expense of the removal of sculpture. The circumstances were altogether special, and would have no application to any other sculpture that I know of, except one, which my scheme does not jiropose to re- move. 1940. Why do you say, "the circumstances were altogether special" ? — In the first place, the head of Thothmes III. is a monument of granite, weighing about six or seven tons, exclusive of its pedestal ; it was, therefore, considered proper to support the floor underneath where it stands by special piers constructed in the basement below, and when it was proposed to be removed to a distance of 10 or 12 feet, it was, in the opinion of the arch- tect, necessary to construct similar piers again in the new spot ; and then because it was to be removed, not exactly in a straight direction, but diagonally, the difficulty in balancing it (for it is one of the most unwieldy objects in point of pro- portion that we have) was considerably increased ; now when this head had been removed previously, it was thought prudent to consult the late Mr. Ste- phenson on the subject, and he considering, pro- bably, that " expense was no object" with the British Museum, recommended that what may be called a railway or tramway should be laid down to carry it steadily along the floor, and at the same time that a very elaborate cradle should be constructed in order to prevent the weight at the top of the head from overbalancing ; a precau- tion which no doubt was in the highest degree prudent, but which is totally unnecessary for any other object we possess ; when therefore the trus- tees saw that this railroad, together with the architect's work in constructing the piers, and the carpenter's work in constructing the cradle, would run them up a bill of 70/., they considered it was not expedient to undertake the work. 1941. Mr. IJardt/.] In fact, it was not removed at all?— No. 1942. Chairman.'] I believe the arrangement of the Greek sculpture commenced in the year 1836 ? —Yes. 1943. By whom were the Elgin marbles for- merly arranged ? — They were formerly arranged by Sir Richard Westmacott. 1944. From the answers which you have al- ready given, you seem not quite to approve of the present arrangement of the Elgin marbles ? — No ; it is certainly not such an arrangement as I wish to see of the sculptures, which 1 regard as the most valuable in the world. 1945. Am I to take the observations which you have made with reference to the former question as indicating defective arrangements of the Elgin, room at present ? — Certainly. OWjield, Esq. 35 June i860. OM. B3 ] 34 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Jovis, 28° die Junii, i860. Mr. Ayrton. Sir Philip Egerton. Mr. W. H. Gregory. Sir George Grey. Mr. Hardy. MEMBERS PRESENT Mr. Lowe. Mr. Knight. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Tite. Mr. W. H. GREGORY, in the Chair. Edmund Oldfield, Esq., called in; and further Examined. H. Oldfield, Esq. 28 June i860. 1946. Chairman.] You stated in your last answer, that you consider the present arrange- ment of the Elgin room very defective ?• — Yes, I think it is. 1947. Will you state why ? — Perhaps you will allow me before doing that to mention, that hav- ing within the last few minutes seen a proof of the evidence which I have already given, I think that some observations that I made upon that point may possibly not be quite correctly under- stood. I stated that I considered the arrange- ment of the frieze and the pedimental groups in the same room (that room being of comparatively limited dimensions) to be objectionable; but 1 in- tended by that observation to refer only to the arrangement which existed down to the time when the sculptures were re-arranged, about three or four years ago ; that is not the present arrange- ment. But I understand the question which you are now asking me has reference to the present arrangement. 1948. I am asking you as to the present arrangement ? — I certainly consider the present arrangement to be unsatisfactory, for two or three reasons. In the first place, I think it of great im- portance with monuments, which are regarded by all cultivated persons as the most valuable speci- mens of the very best school of Greek sculpture, that those monuments should be so exhibited that the visitor may, at once, be enabled to identify them, without confusing them with others. Whereas, at present, the monuments of the Parthenon, which are those to which I refer, are arranged, partly, in what is called the first Elgin room, and partly in the second ; the frieze remains where it has always been, in the second Elgin room; and the pedi- mental groups have been transferred to the first; and in each of those two rooms are various other specimens of Greek sculpture mixed up with them, and which the visitor would naturally sup- pose to belong, to the same school. In the next place, from the breadth of the room to which the groups from the pediments of the Parthenon have been transferred, being only 37 feet, it is impossible to isolate those two groups without bringing them so near to each other, that it is not possible for the spectator to recede to a sufficient distance from them, to be enabled to form an idea of their general effect ; and I think, for these two reasons, that both the archaeological interest, and the artistic beauty of the sculpture, is impaired by the present arrangement. Another objection is, that objects which properly belong to the Greek collection of the same period, have been necessarily removed to the basement, in consequence of a deficiency of space in that room to receive them. 1949. Did you submit a plan to the trustees in January 1856, upon the subject of the arrange- ment of antiquities ? — I did. Through Mr. Hawkins, I addressed a letter to the trustees, which was in reply to a requisition from them, requiring his department to submit a plan for the arrangement both of the Greek sculpture of Sir Henry Rawlinson's collection and the Assyrian sculpture, and in submitting that plan I accompanied it with a letter, not merely explana- tory of the plan, but at the same time taking the liberty to add suggestions as to what I considered would be a more satisfactory mode of treating the whole subject than the adoption of the plan, which I nevertheless was bound by my instructions to submit. 1950. Are you satisfied with that plan at pre- sent ?--I cannot say I am satisfied with it, for the reasons I have before adverted to, when speaking of the deficiency of space in the Elgin apartment ; I think that the main objection to the plan ; it has also other objections. The trustees, however, considered it was not possible to meet the diffi- culty, had they chosen to entertain my suggestion, without going into a much greater expense, or at least opening the question of the future exten- sion of the Museum further than they thought de- sirable ; they therefore adopted the plan without reference to those other suggestions. 1951. Was there any alternative suggested ?— The alternative was, in fact, contained in the sug- gestions with which I accompanied the plan ; it, in short, amounted to this, that it appeared to Mr. Hawkins and myself, having discussed the subject fully, that the arrangement, which was the very best that we could then devise, was in itself in- evitably so unsatisfactory, that considering the great value of the monuments, and the interest of the public in them, it would be, in the long run, impossible to maintain that arrangement perma- nently : consequently we believed that, before many years were over, it would be found necessary greatly to extend the Museum ; and therefore we suggested, that it was not merely the best plan in a scientific point of view, but upon a large view of the questioa, it would be ultimately the most economical plan, at once to lay down a scheme of future extension, and to do only so much at pre- sent as would fall in with an ulterior scheme whenever it could be developed ; and for that pur- pose we suggested the purchase of ground to the west of the Museum, and the reservation of the arrangement SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. *35 arrangement of the Greek sculpture until that ground could be acquired. 1952. Would you propose any other arrange- ment for the Elgin collection than merely keeping the objects of that particular time together, and apart from other objects? — What I think the most important, and in point of fact, the only satisfactory mode in which such monuments can be exhibited is, that the remains of the Parthenon should occupy a room by themselves, both pedi- ments and frieze being exhibited in connexion with each other, but at the same time, care being taken to avoid the one interfering with the other in the mode in which they did before the late arrangement was attempted. When they occupy a room by themselves, I think that all the earlier remains of the Greek school should be placed in a room which the visitor would see before arriving at the Parthenon room ; and all the later remains, including those from Halicarnassus, in the room which would follow subsequently. I think that such an arrangement is indispensable to the proper study of Greek sculpture. 1953. Do you attach much value to the Hali- carnassian collection ? — Undoubtedly, not merely from the artistic merit of the monuments them- selves, but from the circumstance that we possess greater historical evidence now as to their period, as to the names of the artists who executed them, and as to their purpose, than we generally pos- sess with regard to ancient monuments, so that they become in a certain degree, a land-mark in art. We know that the sculptures were executed about the year 350 by five artists, whose names are recorded by Pliny. We know that they formed part of a building, which was at once a monument to an individual, and a record of the greatness of a nation ; and I think, therefore, for the pur- pose of illustrating other Greek monuments, that they are among the most useful and important that we possess. 1954. Has Mr. Westmacott been employed in the arrangement of these collections? — Not exactly in arranging them ; Mr. Westmacott is employed by the trustees for the purpose of repairing and cleaning, and likewise superintending, or giving directions for, the moving of all the more difficult sculptures. I may take the opportunity of mak- ing an observation, which I think is due in justice to Mr. Westmacott. There has been some public complaint, I believe, that the statues from Halicarnassus have been more or less restored, and that complaint has been made in connexion with the name of Mr. Westmacott. I think it is but due to him to say, that no restoration, in the sense in which we understand the term, has taken place. There is a large torso of a colossal horse ; there is also a foot of a horse in the same collec- tion, and we were desirous of knowing whether the foot belonged to the torso ; and, for the pur- pose of determining that question, Mr. Westma- cott thought the best course would be to model legs for the horse, in order to bring the two parts into connexion, and then to see whether they cor- responded with each other. I believe during the time those modelled legs remained, some persons having seen them, came to the conclusion that it was the intention of the trustees to employ Mr. Westmacott to restore the Habcarnassian sculp- tures, and statements to that effect were pub- lished; but when it was ascertained that there was no sufficient correspondence to show that the foot belonged to the torso, those modelled legs were removed ; and it never, at any time, was 0,96. the intention of the trustees, nor would it in the E. Oldfield? slightest degree have been iu accordance with the Esq. practice of the Museum, to attempt anything like a restoration of those, or any other Greek sculp- - 8 June tures. J l i860. 1955. Then Mr. Westmacott has not restored any other portion of those sculptures, except the leg of that horse temporarily to which you have alluded ? — Nothing of any importance. We are obliged, of course, to do this, where we get only broken remains of a statue ; it is necessary, in order to bring those remains together, to supply the va- cancies with some sort of cement or other matter. We have, for example, a most important statue in the Halicarnassian collection, which we have good reason to believe to be a portrait of Mausolus him- self, which statue o was, so to speak, built up of be- tween 50 and 60 pieces. It would be impossible to bring all those pieces together without filling up a few vacuities which could not be supplied from the ancient remains ; and to that extent, (that is to say, to the extent simply* of reuniting what is dis- connected, and supporting what is weak,) we do supply ; but we take care in supplying, to make use of such a material, or give it such a colour, that the spectator can immediately distinguish what is antique from what is modern. 1956. How do you think this collection from Halicarnassus ought to be arranged ? — It is at present in a temporary receptacle, which is quite incapable of admitting of any satisfactory arrange- ment. I think, in order to arrange it satisfactorily, it would be necessary to have a large apartment, the proportions of which, perhaps, 1 am hardly prepared to state at the present moment ; but I think it would be indispensable that the principal figures, which are the remains of a group, repre- senting apparently Mausolus and his Queen Artemisia in a quadriga, should be collected and placed together, so as to exhibit to the visitor their original arrangement. I think it is also essential that the frieze should be carried on con- tinuously, distinguishing that portion which was discovered by Mr. Newton on the east side of the mausoleum, and which there is considerable reason to believe was the work of Scopas, the most distinguished of the five artists employed ; and care should also be taken to isolate all those other statues which are well sculptured, and in the round ; but I certainly do not think it of impor- tance to exhibit all those fragments that Mr. Newton very properly sent over in the hope that they mightbe rejoined to other fragments, but which it has been found impossible so to re-join. I do not consider it essential to exhibit those fragments . . . . P . m the same prominent or important positions m which we exhibit the more perfect or reconstructed statues. I think the best mode of arrangement would be, if we had one large room for the recep- tion of the whole or comparatively perfect statues, and a small room adjoining, in which might be put the unrejoined fragments, and the other more or less important remains from the same building. 1957. You would not consign them to the base- ment ? — I should be sorry to consign anything to the basement which was intended for public ex- hibition. 1958. With regard to the other collection which Mr. Newton has sent over from Branchida?, do you attach much value to that?— Certainly ; it com- prises, amongst other things, ten statues of seated figures, belonging to a period of art of which neither we nor any other Museum previously had any important remains,, one of which bears an K 4 inscription 136 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 28 June i860. E. Oldfield, inscription of a very remarkable character, re- Esq. cording the name of a person called Chares, a tyrant, or sovereign of a small state, so that it pos- sesses historical as well as artistic interest. This series fills not only a blank in our collection, but blank in the history of art generally in the European Museums. 1959. That remark does not apply to all the other statues ; do you think it would be necessary to exhibit the whole of those statues ? — It might certainly be a subject for discussion whether the whole series needs to be exhibited ; I think, how- ever, that as we possess them, it would be a pity to withdraw any from public view. I believe it is the opinion both of Mr. Newton and other higher authorities than myself, that it would be be proper that all should be exhibited. 1960. "With regard to the Grasco-Roman col- lection, will you explain the exact meaning of the term Grseco-Roman? — We apply that term to what may be called a mixed class of sculptures ; they are sculptures which are not all of the same character ; they are found chiefly in Italy, and down to about 50 years since, it was commonly sup- posed that they were nearly all' transported from Greece by the Romans, for the decoration of their own houses. A few of those statues no doubt may have been so ; but it is the opinion of the most scien- tific archaeologists of the present day, that the great majority of those sculptures were executed in Italy in the time of the Roman emperors. No doubt Greek artists were frequently employed ; and as regards the ideal sculptures, nearly the whole of them are copies or modifications of earlier Greek originals. They present therefore what may be characterised as Greek ideas in a Roman form, and they have consequently received a name which expresses that compound character, the Graeco- Roman. 1961. How long is it since these sculptures have occupied the position they now do ? — They were re-arranged about four or five years since, in the apartments which they now occupy. 1962. Where were they previously? — The greater portion of them were, immediately before that re-arrangement, in the first apartment, which is now called the Roman Gallery, where they were exceedingly and most objectionably crowded. A portion of them were in the second room, now called the first Graeco-Roman saloon; and a small portion were in what is now called the Assyrian central room; whilst others were in the Egyptian central room. 1963. On what principle are they now arranged? — The principle adopted for that collection is dif- ferent from what has been adopted with the pure Greek and the more distinctly Roman monuments. The cause of the difference is easily explained by what I have just now stated with reference to the character of the sculptures themselves, the ma- jority of them being but copies or transcripts of earlier Greek models. It is certainly impossible for even the most experienced archaeologist to de- termine accurately their dates ; it was consequently not possible to arrange such a series chronologi- cally, nor perhaps would they be very instructive if they were so arranged. We therefore thought it best to adopt a different principle, but not, I think, less scientific ; namely, to make them the means of illustrating, as far as possible, the reli- gion, the social life, and also the iconography of the ancient Greeks and Romans ; that is to say, we divide them first of all mythologically, giving up one apartment to the Olympic deities ; another to other ideal figures of less mythological rank ; , and then a third to the representations of human life; whilst a fourth apartment is appropriated merely to minor monuments, altars, candelabra, and such like objects. We thought that would on the whole be a means of furnishing instruction to the archaeological student, which could not be ob- - tained practically in any other way. 1964. Are you satisfied with the rooms which are now assigned to these collections ? — No ; the first room, which we call the First Grseco-Roman. Saloon, is objectionable in respect of its light, and also from the impossibility of isolating more im- portant sculptures. The second room, though very small, is. less objectionable. But the third room, which contains the principal part of that collection, is very much too narrow, its breadth being merely 18 feet ; its length also is so small that the statues are unduly crowded, and lose that effect which they should produce. The fourth room is called the Graeco-Roman Basement Room, and is open to all those objections which I consider apply to every public exhibition room when placed on the basement floor. 1965. Were there not some subsequent modi- fications of the second Graeco-Roman room? — Yes ; the trustees considered it of importance to distinguish the statue commonly called the Townley Venus, one of the most beautiful in our collection, and they caused a niche to be con- structed in that room for its reception ; and in order to give sufficient importance to it, and to another statue known as the Discobolus, which was also placed in the same room, it became necessary to remove all the other smaller sculp- tures which were up to that time in that room ; and they are consequently transferred to what is- called the Assyrian transept, where they are very objectionably placed, both with reference to- themselves and the Assyrian monuments which adjoin them ; but we have no other place what- ever in which they can be publicly exhibited. 1966. Were those smaller sculptures, portrait busts? — Yes, chiefly; but not entirely. There are a few more statues which belong rather to the character which is now called genre. 1967. Have you no space for those at present? — None whatever for exhibiting them properly in connexion with those objects to which they right- fully belong. 1968. Do you draw any distinction at all be- tween your arrangement of the Grasco-Roman sculptures and the Greek sculptures to which we have before alluded ?— Do you refer to the classi- fication of the sculptures, or the mode of exhibiting, them with regard to the structure of the rooms ? 1969. I refer to the mode of exhibiting them with regard to the structure of the rooms? — Certainly a great difference ought to be made -, the Greek sculptures generally are in large groups; they are the remains of decorations of temples- or public buildings. The most important of them, the Parthenon, comprises a frieze, of which, if I recollect right, we have (including casts) about 350 feet, together with the pedimental groups to which I have just now referred. The Halicar- nassian monuments are also in exceedingly large groups. It is, therefore, necessary that such monuments should be arranged in rooms so con- structed as not needlessly to break into the con- tinuity of the sculpture ; but on the other hand, the Grajco-Roman sculptures almost all consist of' isolated subjects ; a single statue stands by itself: these works were employed by the Romans for the; SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. '37 -the decoration of their palaces and villas, and no long frieze occurs in this series of sculptures ; our specimens are commonly small and isolated, and consequently they admit of an arrangement much more approximating to that which is adopted with modern sculpture, and likewise an arrange- ment similar to that which is generally adopted in the museums abroad, which contain principally Grasco-Eoman sculptures. 1970. What ~ proportioned rooms would you Tequire for the exhibition of the GrEeco-Eoman sculptures ? — I think it is very undesirable with such sculptures to adopt very large rooms. I think nothing could be a greater mistake than to imagine that, as a universal rule, sculptures look best in magnificent rooms ; on the contrary, small sculptures are apt to be dwarfed by the propor- tions of a large apartment. It is far more difficult in such apartments to provide for them a suit- able light, I think sculptures such as these may be most favourably shown in an apartment not more than 30 feet wide : and in order to give due importance to the finest statues in a series, it is desirable to adopt the ancient Roman practice of constructing niches, in the centre of which those statues can be isolated, so as to give the visitor an opportunity of going round to examine the back of the statue, without being obliged to bring the figure so far forward as to interfere with the passage through the room. No such arrangement would be applicable to the majority of the pure Greek sculpture. 1971. Then I deduce from your observations that you attach very great importance that, pre- vious to any plan being drawn up for the con- struction of a room for the accommodation of any collection, it should be distinctly understood for what collection it is intended? — Unquestionably. I think that, in the case of sculpture, nearly all its different classes require differently constructed rooms for their proper exhibition, varying both in height, breadth, and lighting, and likewise in the occasional adoption of such architectural varieties as I was just now suggesting, of niches, and, perhaps, sometimes pilasters : and consequently, if we desire our collection to look well, I think it is indispensable that the galleries should be varied in structure according to their contents, and such a result can never be obtained unless it is laid down as a general rule, which in- deed I should like to see universal and absolute, that no commissions should ever be given for the construction of a room, or rather, I should say, no order for designing a room, until it is first settled what are to be the contents of that room, and what is to be the general principle of its. arrangement. Details cannot be settled before- hand, but a general scheme should be decided upon, in which the position of all the more im- portant objects should be determined before the plan of the room itself was designed. 1972. Do you think it of vital importance that the rooms should be adapted to the collections rather than the collections to the rooms? — Un- questionably; I think that is indispensable to a proper exhibition. 1973. With regard to the Eoman gallery, I think that is the first room on the left-hand side as you enter the Museum? — Yes. 1 974. In what order have you the busts arranged there? — That is strictly chronological; the busts and statues are portraits chiefly of the Eoman Emperors and their families, of which we are generally able to ascertain the date; we have 0.96. therefore arranged thewhole series chronologi- E. Oldfield, cally. Esq. 1975. Do you find much objection to that room upon the ground of light, or any other cause ?— 2 8 June Certainly ; the columns of the front colonnade very 1SC0, greatly impede the light of the room. 1976. Supposing that Mr. Panizzi's plan was adopted, to which I think you have referred, and another room could be obtained by the removal of the staircase, will you suggest what employment this Eoman room might be advantageously applied to ? — I think that which is now the present Eoman gallery, being from the deficiency of light unsuited to the exhibition of sculpture, had better be with- drawn from the series of public rooms, upon the supposition that another and better entrance to the gallery of antiquities were constructed along- side of it ; and I think then that it might be made exceedingly useful for a purpose which is greatly needed in our department, namely, the recep- tion of sculptures on their first arrival in a room upon the same floor where they will ultimately be exhibited, and for the purpose of repairing them where necessary, and of keeping in the same room the workmen's machinery and tools, for which at present we have no room on our principal floor, and which consequently are very often left to dis- figure our galleries and impede the passage of the public through the apartments; I should therefore on such a supposition suggest the ap- plication of that room simply to these purposes, which may be called private purposes of the department. 1977. Do you concur in the observations which have been made already to this Committee, that the sepulchral rooms on the basement are objec- tionable, both on the ground of deficiency of light, and also upon the ground of damp ?— Yes, very nearly all of them are deficient in light, and certainly some of them arej liable to damp, — though they differ in that respect. But I also think that another great objection is the means of access to them._ They can only be approached by two narrow winding staircases, which involve also the necessity of persons returning in each case by the same way, which is a great incon- venience to the public. In point of fact, I may say that the three rooms which lie together, one called the sepulchral basement room, the second, the Assyrian, and the third, the Car- thaginian basement room, are, I believe, not visited by one-half of the public who visit the rest of our galleries. The great majority, I ob- serve, particularly women, when they come to the staircases, which it is necessary to descend to reach those rooms, turn away, declining to go down into dark, unattractive, and almost in- decorous looking passages. 1978. How are the sepulchral rooms arranged? — The sepulchral roDin contains the sepulchral monuments both of the Greek, Etruscan, and Eoman collections. They are divided into these three classes. The Etruscan consist principally of some copies, or paintings upon canvas stretched upon frames, representing the frescoes in the interior of certain Etruscan tombs, discovered chiefly at Corneto ; those paintings have therefore been put together so as to constitute models, as it were, of Etruscan chambers, fac-similes of the original tombs from which they were copied, and in these so formed chambers are preserved the sarcophagi, or other remains, found in the Etruscan tombs. The Greek and Eoman sepulchral monu- ments are arranged in other recesses of the same S apartment, i3» MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E. Ohlfehl, apartment, in the usual mode in which we exhibit £sq- -uch sculptures. 1979. Do you think it advisable to separate the 28 June Greek and Roman sepulchral monuments from 1860 the rest of the sculptures ?— No, 1 think that is much to be regretted, especially in the case of the Greek, because some of these monuments have considerable artistic merit ; and it is highly desirable that they should be in rooms at least adjoining the great monumental series which is now on the principal floor, and which really be- long to the same schools and periods of art. 1980. The Carthaginian room I think chiefly contains mosaics from Carthage ? — Principally mosaics, which are monuments really of the Roman dominion, although discovered in Car- thage. It likewise contains a collection of very curious and interesting stela, with Phoenician inscriptions, which we have no space for the proper exhibition of. 1981 Have you any Phoenician inscriptions, except those from Carthage ? — We have a few ; such inscriptions are comparatively rare every where, but we have some of considerable interest, including one which is bilingual. 1982. Would you keep all your Phoenician in- scriptions together, or would you separate them ? — I should be disposed to keep them all together. The Phoenician language is one which, as yet, we of course know but little of, but its philological affinities to other ancient languages which are now the subject of special study, renders it one of high importance. I think this country might render a great service to philology generally, by bringing together, as far as possible, all the materials for the prosecution of these studies. 1983. Now with regard to mosaics, have you considered at all the mode of exhibiting these mosaics, as to the position which they should occupy ; would you have them laid on the floor, or would you have them placed upright?- — Un- doubtedly the most correct mode, strictly speak- ing, would be to place them on the floor, as they were originally ; but inasmuch as we are unable to restore the apartments to which they belonged, •and as, generally speaking, the mosaics themselves are but fragmentary, I think we should fail to give the public much idea of their original effect, while, at the same time, that arrangement is liable to some practical inconvenience. In the first place it exposes them very much to dust ; and in the next place, if they are large, it makes it more difficult to see them. I am aware that it is common on the Continent, especially in Rome, to make floors of ancient mosaics; but those mosaics are almost universally restored, and the objection which I have just now made with regard to dust is of far less importance in any foreign museum than in London, inasmuch as no museum on the Continent, except the Louvre, has a tithe of the visitors who frequent the British Museum. 1984. You would place the mosaics against the wall ?— I think it is, on the whole, wiser to place them against the wall, where they could be better seen, and better preserved. 1985. Would you devote a room exclusively to mosaics in the British Museum ?— I do not know that that would be necessary. Perhaps they might be advantageously arranged together with the Roman sculptures, in which case the variety of their colours would relieve the eye, and they would, in reality, be in juxta-position with the same class of monuments with which they were formerly united. 1986. It nright be instructive to trace the con- nexion between the Roman-African monuments and the Roman-British monuments of mosaics? — Yes, it anight certainly. 1987. What is the principle upon which the Temple Collection has been arranged ?— The Temple Collection stands in rather an exceptional position. The general rule of the British Mu- seum is, that all monuments of the same class are placed together, without reference to the source from which they have been acquired. In the case, however, of the Temple Collection, which was the bequest of Sir William Temple, and was one of very great interest and value, it was thought due to his memory to exhibit them, for a time at least, apart from other monuments of the same class. They were, therefore, placed by the direction of the trustees in what is called the Second Egyptian Room, of which they occupy the whole west side. They have been distributed, within the limits of that space, according to their classes, that is, the sculptures together, the terracottas together, the glass together, the vases together, and so forth; but still separately from the general collection in the Museum. 1988. Had you any thing to do with the arrangement of the Lycian gallery ? — Not at all. That was arranged before I, in fact, had any con- nexion with the British Museum, by Sir Richard Westmacott. 1989. Have you thought at all as to the best mode of arranging the Lycian sculptures? — I think it will be impracticable in that room to re-arrange them in any satisfactory mode, not merely from the deficiency of space, but from the deficiency of light. I think, however, that it might be advisable to adopt a suggestion made by Sir Charles Fellows in a letter which has been published by order of the House of Commons, which embodies also, I believe, the opinion of Mr. Newton, to whom I remember speaking on the sub- ject, namely, that what is called the Ionic Trophy Monument from Xanthus should be separated from the more strictly Lycian monuments, some- times called autonomous, and should be arranged with the Greek collection. If this were done, then the present apartment would have space enough for the proper arrangement of the purely Lycian remains. I ought to add, that the suggestion is one which it would be quite impossible to carry out within our present building. It could, of course, only be acted upon on the assumption that we obtained an extension of the building. 1990. Upon what principle do you arrange your Vase collection ? — The Vase collection, the greater part of which was originally arranged by Mr. Newton, has been divided into two series, the vases discovered in Greece proper, with the Levant, and the vases discovered in Italy ; and in those two classes each series is arranged chronologically. 1991. Will you give, as briefly as yon can, to the Committee, your views as to the light which is required for vases, terracottas, bronzes, and gems ; do you think the same light would apply to all ? — I think not ; as regards vases, probably the most advantageous mode of lighting would be one in which the light is admitted on each side immediately below the roof, something upon the principle which I believe is adopted in the College of Surgeons. But for bronzes and terra- cottas, I think a light similar to that which we have in the British Museum, which is a skylight in the centre of the apartment, is in some respects to be preferred. Oh the other hand, for gems, and SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. '39 and also coins and medals, the light from an ordinary window is decidedly the best. 1992. You have no exhibition of coins, at pre- sent, at all 1 — No public exhibition. 1993. Are you aware whether there is any exhibition of coins in any foreign collection? — In some museums, for example, the Museum of Berlin, there is a very interesting, although not, in a numismatic point of view, a very valuable collection exhibited. In the " Bibliotheque Im- periale," an exhibition is likewise made of their most valuable coins. 1994. I believe no exhibition of coins could be made in the present medal room? — Certainly not; we have no space. 1995. "Would you prefer a window light for coins /—Certainly ; I think that is the most con- venient. In order to make an exhibition of coins to the public, I think it would be indispensable to have an additional room. In point of fact, I think it would be highly desirable, if possible, to obtain three rooms for the purpose of coins ; one for the public exhibition of coins, under glass, which should be at all times open when the public are admitted to the Museum ; a second room for what" may be called private exhibition, that is, a room in which persons properly introduced would be allowed more freely to examine coins under the eye of the officers, in the same way as they are now allowed in the present Medal Room, but a room in which they could do this with- out interfering with the business of the depart- ment, or possibly endangering the custody of the coins, in the manner which must inevitably result in the present room, where both- the ar- rangement, classification, and departmental care of coins are carried on simultaneously with the exhibition of them to visitors. The third or inner room should contain the collection, and be the working room of the officers. 1996. With regard to the Mediaeval collection, do you require any particular light for that ? — I think that such objects may be very satisfactorily exhibited with an ordinary window light, 1997. Do you attach great importance to the retention of the works of mediaeval art in the British Museum ? — I should very much regret to see them removed, because I believe they are more instructive if they are in the same edifice with the prints and manuscripts and the library, as well as the general antiquities, than they could be anywhere else. 1998. Have you, in your own department, sufficient room for other purposes than for exhi- bition ; for instance, do you require any addi- tional room for drawing for the formatore and for moulding casts? — "We are certainly in want of additional rooms for various purposes of that kind, as I have already adverted to in suggesting a purpose to which the first Roman gallery might fee applied. We also want two or three other rooms for similar purposes. 1999. Do you require any room for inferior sculptures and for duplicates? — Yes; I think such a room would be very desirable. It need not be a large or very well-lighted room ; but it is inevitable with a collection of such magnitude as ours that we must from time to time come into possession of some unimportant objects which we cannot withdraw from public exhibition. For example, where a large acquisition of antiquities is obtained by donation, a few of the objects may be of inferior value ; yet it would sometimes be felt hardly respectful to the donor, either to send 0.96. them away or lock them up from the public. ; it would therefore be desirable that such object* should be kept accessible to the public, without at the same time being made part of our more valuable collections. 2000. Do you think there are many objects in the department of antiquities which might be parted with to other museums, presuming the British Museum to retain its proprietary right over them ? — We have at present no means of parting with anything to other museums. Of course before I could express an opinion as to the ex- pediency of such an arrangement, I must know under what conditions that proprietary right could be preserved. 2001. With regard to providing space for that part of the inscriptions which is not now exhibited, and to arrange the whole collection scientifically, do you consider that new ground must be ob- tained ?■ — Yes, I think that it is inevitable. 2002. Do you consider that the ground to the west is best for any new building which may be erected? — I think it most desirable for our de- partment. 2003i I suppose you would consider that the proximity of the present collection would be one advantage ? — Certainly ; I think that a very great recommendation. Were the addition on any other side of the Museum, there would necessarily be a very considerable mass of rooms interposed, which would obstruct the visitors who wished to examine continuously the whole of our collection. 2004. Then the parallelism of the new build- ings with the present would be another object? — I think that also is of very great importance, be- cause by exhibiting series of galleries, one parallel with the other, and each for a different school^ the visitor is enabled to pass from the artistic monuments of one school to the corresponding monuments of another school, and be in a posi- tion to compare one with the other. Another advantage is, that such a scheme would bring our collection into a more compact form, and diminish the distance of the several parts from each other, which would be a convenience both to the public, who do not desire to have to traverse more ground than is necessary, and also to the various employes of the Museum ; and in some instances it would even be a saving of expense and of time, where heavy objects have to be transferred from one part of the collection to another. I look upon it, therefore, that compactness in the disposition of the galleries is both a scientific and an economical advantage. 2005. Would you obtain more space by an extension to the west than you would by an ex- tension to the north '. — Not a greater quantity of ground, but we should be enabled to obtain a greater quantity of available space for building, because on the north side of the present Museum all the apartments on the ground floor are lighted by side windows. It would not therefore be pos- sible to come near those apartments without ob- structing their light. On the other hand, on the west side there are no rooms in the department of antiquities which have any windows at all, all the outside galleries on that side being lighted by skylights. It would consequently be possible to commence building, I should say within 12 feet, reserving only sufficient space to preserve the present roadway, which is necessary for the pur- pose of convenience. The difficulty of building on the north side with reference to the light may be most stronglv shown upon the very high autho- s2 rity E. owpm, Esq. ;8 June i860. 140 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E. Oldfield, rity of Mr. Smirke, who submitted a plan to the Eoq, 28 June i860. trustees, which has been published by order of the House of Commons, and in the letter accom- panying that plan you will find he states that the mass of buildings which he proposed to construct, which were with a double storey, would be at a dis- tance of 115 feet from the existing building, or as he describes it, " a distance equal to the width of Portland-place." It is true, that he subse- quently proposed the insertion of a wide room in a part of that space, but he considered it neces- sary to place that room upon the level of the base- ment for fear it should interfere with the lighting. These are difficulties which he would not have found had he been dealing with the west side of the building. 2006. Do you attach any importance to keep- ing your galleries separate so as to avoid the other departments ? — Yes, 1 think it highly desirable ; I think it very inexpedient not merely for our- selves, but with regard to those other departments, that any attempt should be made to construct a building, which upon a duplicate plan should pro- vide for one department upon one floor, and another department upon another floor. I think that the attempt so to do, quite irrespective of the diffi- culty which would occur with regard to lighting sculpture on the lower floor, would be open to the objection, that no two departments can possibly require exactly the same amount of space in ex- actly the same position, and if they did require it now, it is morally certain, that as one or other extended, the other would not extend, and this is particularly the case where the collections in the two departments are so different in their nature as natural history, for example, and antiquities. Natural history progresses in a more regular order, and it may be possible, perhajss, to calculate that progression, but the department of antiquities progresses chiefly at uncertain periods, which it is impossible to foresee. It would have been im- possible, for example, when the sculptures arrived from Halicarnassus, that exactly the same amount of space which was required for them would also have been required for natural history. 2007. I suppose the peculiar variations in the structure of rooms which you require to suit their different contents, would be a very formidable objection in your mind to the same structure being intended for natural history and for anti- quities? — Certainly it would. There are hardly any two classes of sculpture which can be rightly exhibited in rooms of the same kind ; consequently if one series of galleries were constructed of a uniform height and breadth, in order to admit of another series above, it would inevitably be in- compatible with the proper exhibition of our sculptures. 2008. When you lay so very much stress upon the greater portion of your collections being lighted by skylights, are you aware that the greater portion of the great foreign collections of sculpture are lighted by side light ? — There are various reasons for this. I think, undoubtedly, that a skylight is the best light for exhibiting, I may say, all sculptures; but I do not con- eider it of equal importance with all classes. I think, for Assyrian, Etruscan, and Greek monu- ments, it may be called indispensable. J feel morally convinced, that if the members of this Committee, or any other person, had arranged only a quarter of the number of sculptures with which I have been concerned, they would long since have come to that opinion without the slightest doubt. As regards the Graeco-Roman and the Roman sculptures, I would not put the case so strongly ; but the finest gallery in Europe, in my opinion, is what is called the Braccio Nuovo, in the Vatican, which is a room built for the exhibi- tion of a GraBco-Roman collection, and is lighted exclusively by skylights. There are many other considerations besides the character of their sculptures which, distinguish between foreign museums and the British Museum. In the first place, the quantity of light in such an atmosphere as London is of more importance than it is in the towns on the Continent, and a greater quantity of light can always be obtained by openings in a ceiling than can be obtained through side windows. With regard to the distinction which I just now spoke of, with reference to the dif- ferent classes of sculpture, I may be allowed to say, inasmuch as you refer to foreign museums, that I once had an opportunity of conversing on the subject with Baron Von Klenze, the eminent architect of the Glyptothek, at Munich, and also of other public buildings in Germany and, I believe, also in Russia. I showed him our col- lection at the British Museum, and I asked his opinion upon this question, and his answer to me was that for bas-reliefs he considered a sky- light was unquestionably the best, and that for the greater part of our sculptures it would be necessary, but for that class of sculpture which he had most to deal with at Munich, and, I believe, also at St. Petersburgh, he considered that a side light, if it were rather highly placed, was equally advantageous with a skylight. At Munich, which I consider to possess the best arranged museum of sculptures on the Continent, some of the rooms are lighted with skylights, and others with side windows ; but the side windows are very unlike what we have in the British Museum ; they are semicircular, or lunette shaped windows, placed as high as possible in the wall, and only one of such windows in each room; so that the great evil which occurs from side fights, or rather from side windows, in such galleries as ours, namely, the evil of cross-lights from having several win- dows in the same room, is avoided. Perhaps I may be permitted to refer on this subject to a report which was presented by Mr. Hawkins, which has been published by order of the House of Commons, dated July 1858, where the four principal reasons which then induced him so strongly to prefer the general use of skylights, are succinctly stated. If there are any of those reasons which appear to any of the gentlemen here to be inconclusive or unintelligible, I shall be happy to furnish any explanation of them that may be required. 2009. Is there not rather a fallacy in supposing that the construction of galleries of one storey involves a complete loss of the space that would be obtained by putting a second floor upon them? —I think there is, very frequently. I think persons form a hasty conclusion from the mode in which an ordinary house is built in a street. Undoubtedly where you have a limited space of ground to build on, and an open space beyond, secured for lighting, as in the street itself, then the greater number of storeys, the greater is the accommodation obtained ; but where you have a larger breadth of space, subject only to the con- dition of finding light within its limits, then I believe you will find, in practice, that no economy whatever is obtained by building upper floors; because, as it is always necessary to preserve a sufficient SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 14I sufficient open space to admit light to the windows of the lower floors, it commonly results that you lose at least as much, if not probably more, space in these reservations than you gain by the addi- tional floors above. 2010. Do yon believe it would be impossible to place the sculptures in any part of the library ? — It would not be impossible, but I think it would be highly undesirable ; even if the library could conveniently be spared for such a purpose, which I very much doubt, I think that the sculptures would be most unfavourably seen there. Our present Egyptian sculptures are certainly exhibited in a room similar to the King's Library ; but those sculptures have no high character as works of art, whilst at the same time, they have a peculiarity not belonging to Greek and Roman sculptures; they have generally hieroglyphic in- scriptions at their backs, which makes it important that they should have a double light, one ex- hibiting the form in front, and the other the inscription at the back. If, instead of this, we were to place the Grseco-Roman sculptures or other similar works of art, in the King's Library, we should find that they would lose their proper effect by being in positions where they would be assailed by light from a large number of windows at once. There would be the same defect in the north library, where the quantity of light is far less, and where it would be necessary, from its breadth, to remove the statues to a considerable distance from the windows. 2011. In the plan of Mr. Smirke, of November .1857, does he not contemplate an extension of gallery much upon the same principle, as that of the present Egyptian gallery ? — It appears to me that his plan is little more than an extension of the Egyptian gallery without variation, to a very great length. 2012. I presume, from your former evidence, that that is not the kind of gallery which you contemplate? — I think it would totally fail to exhibit the sculptures placed in it, with a favour- able effect ; it would, also, according to my view, involve a great loss of space, because I think that galleries of those proportions are needlessly wide. Perhaps I may observe here, that in order to ascertain what is the amount of accommodation to be provided in a room, it is by no means sufficient to inquire merely what is the superficial floor .space ; in point of fact, the wall space is as im- portant as, or more important than, the floor space, because nearly all of our sculptures are exhibited against walls ; few only are capable of isolation m the middle of a floor ; and consequently, a room 50 feet wide practically gives no greater accom- modation to sculpture than a room of only half that width ; and therefore if we were to divide such a room into two longitudinally, we should get two galleries presenting the same amount of accommodation. Of course, that would only be advisable with a certain class of sculptures. 2013. Have you fully considered the position in the structure of the galleries which would be required for your department? — Yes; I certainly have, in considerable detail. 2014. Have you formed any plan ? — I have un- doubtedly formed a plan considerably detailed. 2015. Have you any objection to produce that plan ? — I hope you will permit me upon that to say one word of explanation. When I left the room the other day, you mentioned that such a demand would be made upon me. I certainly have not brought the plan with me, but I hope I 0.96. 23 June i860. may satisfy you that it is from no disrespect E. Oldfield, to the Committee. The circumstances were these : Esq- after the Report to Avhich you have already re- ferred, which I myself submitted four or five years since, as to the expediency of extending the Museum to the west, and after the report which Mr. Hawkins made in July, 1858, in which the same views were repeated in greater detail, Mr. Hawkins was of opinion that the Trustees might very probably, as they were at that time occupied in considering the expediency of some great ex- tension, call upon him to submit a plan which would have embodied his views of the general principles upon which galleries should be laid out. He therefore instructed me to prepare such a plan, to be ready in case at any time it might be serviceable to the Trustees ; and I accordingly did so. The trustees, however, have never yet made such a demand upon Mr. Hawkins, and con- sequently, that plan has never in any way been produced. Although, of course, I must bow to the authority of the Committee, yet I hope they will consider that I am merely an employe of the trustees ; and I think that as that plan was pre- pared exclusively for their use, it would hardly be consistent with my duty to them to do what might appear like stealing a march on them, by giving publicity in any form whatever to the plan, before they had had an opportunity of examining and considering it; and therefore I trust, with great deference to the Committee, that they will extend their indulgence to me so far as not to insist upon the production of a plan which might put me in a position with reference to my official superiors, which would be very embarrassing to me. 2016. You have no objection, I presume, to state the principal heads of that plan ? — No. 2017. Will you give us some general idea of the mode in which you would obtain space, and provide for the future accommodation of the de- partment of antiquities ? — I should recommend the purchase of about 20 houses in Charlotte- street, and the gardens belonging to them. I should say, although I have not brought down the plan to which you have referred, that I have made a slight pen and ink sketch (producing the same) simply for the purpose of elucidating any further observations I may have to make. The houses, assuming that 20 houses were purchased, would be from No. 4, to No. 21 inclusive, in Charlotte-street, and Nos. 2 and 3 in Bedford- square ; there is no No. 1 in Bedford-square. 2018. Sir George Greg.] Will you state the dimensions of the ground? — The dimensions of the ground would be about 450 feet in length, by about 150 feet in breadth, which contains about 67,500 superficial feet, or about an acre and a half. 2019. Mr. Tite.] Those are the dimensions which Mr. Hawkins wanted ? — Yes. 2020. Chairman.] How would you propose to construct your gallery in that space ?-- 1 should recommend the construction of galleries parallel to the present. I think that four such galleries might be advantageously constructed, bearing in mind, in determining the breadth of each, the sculptures to which it should be appropriated. 2021. Mr. Tite.] Would you leave the road between, which at present exists? — Yes. 2022. How would you pass that? — By throw- ing over a small room upon arches, under which carts might pass in the same mode which is now done between the Lycian and First Elgin Rooms, S3-H where 142 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E, Oldfield, Esq. 28 June i860. where such an access to the interior of the building has been preserved. 2023. Mr. Ayrton.] You might arch the whole uver ? — if 80 , you would entirely shut out the light from the road itself, and from the rooms of the basement adjoining. I should recommend that the first of these galleries, which is the one nearest the present building, should be a wide gallery about 42 feet in breadth, that is, as wide as the widest gallery we now have in our depart- ment, and should be appropriated to the larger monumental Greek sculptures. I should then make a second gallery adjoining that, not more than 20 feet in breadth, and lower, adapted only for the minor Greek sculptures. After that, I should have a third gallery of which the greater portion should be appropriated to the Grseco- Roman series, and that gallery I should construct with niches in the manner that I have just now adverted to, and I think that its breadth, in- cluding the niches, need not be more than 40 feet at the outside. The southern extremity of that gallery, modified in its construction, might be applied for Etruscan remains. Then, beyond this, there would be a fourth gallery, which need not, I think, be more than 28 feet in breadth, at the outside ; this gallery I would light by ordinary side window's, and over it I would construct another floor. I would reserve the lower gallery for Roman sculptures, which may, I think, with- out much disadvantage be exhibited by side windows ; it would also serve for other inferior sculptures ; and on the floor above, I would ar- range smaller antiquities, such as we now ex- hibit in the upper floor of the great west wing. I think that this arrangement would enable you to obtain, not certainly a greater amount of superficial feet than that suggested by Mr. Smirke, but certainly a greater amount of avail- able space, for I believe it would be found that the length of wall space on such a plan would be nearly half as much again as in Mr. Smirke's plan, which has been laid down upon a similar extent of ground. 2024. Sir Philip Egerton.] How would you appropriate the rooms which are now occupied by the sculpture that you propose to remove into these galleries ? — I should make use of those for the purpose of carrying out a better arrange- ment of such sculptures as would remain in the existing building, which would be the Egyptian and the Assyrian. I should recommend that the Egyptian should be re-arranged in the mode which I explainer! when last examined. Supposing the proposed alteration was made by the re- moval of the principal staircase, I should then recommend that the visitor should enter from the entrance hall at once, and insj)ect the earliest Egyptian monuments, which are the most ancient that we possess in the Museum ; that he should then pass into the principal Egyptian gallery, and ascending to the top, that he should come down by the narrow galleries at the side, which I should appropriate to the small monuments from Egypt, not sculptures, but such as we now exhibit in the two Egyptian rooms up stairs; I refer to mum- mies, papyri, painted cants, and the various objects which illustrate the domestic life of the ancient Egyptians. Thus I should obtain two long parallel series for Egyptian antiquities. I should then make an alteration over the site of the present Assyrian basement room, the effect of which would be to give a new Nimroud gallery over the central part Of that room, carrying it into what is now called the Hellenic room, which I should appropriate also to Assyrian sculptures from Nimroud. I should then construct a new room, of moderate dimensions, north of that, for the purpose of re- ceiving the series of sculptures from Khorsabad; which follows next in chronological succession to the Nimroud sculptures. From that I should turn into the present second Elgin room, which^ together with the southern or third Elgin room, I should appropriate to Assyrian sculptures from Kouyunjik. In this way I should get two series of Assyrian galleries parallel with the two series of Egyptian. I should then leave the Lycian gallery for the autonomous Lycian monuments, removing the Ionic trophy edifice to the Greek series ; and also partially reconstructing that monu- ment, which I think would be highly desirable. 2025. Sir G. Grey.~\ The extension which you have now suggested is necessary in your opinion for your own department exclusively, without reference to any additional space which may be required for other collections ?— I think it is, both for the proper exhibition of what we have, and to provide adequate space for the probable future increase of the collection. 2026. You would require, in fact, for your' department the whole of that additional space which you have suggested shoidd be taken ? — Yes. 2027. Chairman.] That is comprising the anti- quities on the second floor? — Certainly. I think that were such a plan as this adopted, one feature of which is to obtain an upper floor to the west, adjoining Charlotte-street, it would then be pos- sible to transfer to it those antiquities which we have _ now on the upper floor of the existing building. 2028. Sir G. Grey.'] To what purpose, then, would the upper floor so vacated be appropriated ? I understood you to say that you did not think it expedient to place two different departments one on the lower floor and the other on the upper? — I think it very inexpedient to build upon a common plan for two different departments. Had I to plan the Egyptian gallery, I might perhaps have planned it otherwise than it now is ; but the Egyptian gallery being there, I see no objection, if the trustees should think it advisable, against the whole of our upper floor, which is now occupied by antiquities, being surrendered to the purposes of natural history. 2029._ What would be the expense of the acquisition of that ground, and the purchase of the houses?— I have framed a rough estimate. Of course it will be borne in mine that I am not an architect or contractor, but I have availed myself of a report of a Special Committee of the Irustees, which has been published by order of the the House of Commons, for the purpose of form- ing an idea of the value of the houses and ground, and of the cost of erecting the new buildings. Taking the data so supplied, I think that the cost of the ground which I have specified would pro- bably amount to 65,000 1. 2030. Including the purchase of the houses which now stand upon it ?— Yes ; and the cost of the building upon that ground would probably, be, taking it upon an outside estimate,, as founded' upon the report of the Special Committee, about 145,000 /., so that the two together would amount' to about 210,000 /. 2031. Chairman.] Is that calculation upon the" basis of 2 /. per square foot, for the space ?— Yes, so far as regards the building ; the Trustees state^ in SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 143 in that report, that they consider the cost of building is slightly more than 21. per square Foot. 2032. Sir G. Grey ■.] How soon would you require those buildings to be erected ?— I think it would be most advisable to commence imme- diately, but the pressure is not very great at •present ; five or six years would probably suffice for the completion. 2033. It would be necessary, therefore, to pur- chase the interests of the lessees of those houses immediately, as well as the fee-simple of the ground ? — Certainly. 2034. Is the extension which you have now suggested necessary in your opinion for the pre- sent collection, or do you take into account any probable increase, and have you provided ample space in the suggestion you have made for that future increase, and, if so, for what period ?• — I think it is necessary both for the proper exhibition of what we now possess, and to provide a con- siderable amount of addition for future acquisi- tion ; but I do not presume to predict what space may be necessary for the department of anti- quities for half a century. I conceive it to be totally impossible to form any such calculation, and the Committee would only be misled by the attempt ; for, as I just now mentioned, antiquities are generally collected by large acquisitions, owing to circumstances which it is totally impos- sible to foresee. I think, therefore, that the proper mode of providing for the future is to secure so much space as will at least meet those demands which are likely to occur during the construction of the building, and then, above all, to adopt a system of construction which would at any future time admit of an extension without derangement of that which now exists, and so would obviate the very great expense and incon- venience which has hitherto occurred from altera- tions and re-constructions. 2035. Do you mean without acquiring new ground ? — No ; but it is an essential part of the plan of a building so constructed, that it would be always possible to extend any one of its suites of galleries when the objects proper to those galleries increased, without adding to any of the other gal- leries, simply by purchasing one or more houses adjoining, as occasion might require. 2036. Do you mean that the extension you now propose would be sufficient for five or six years, which is the time that would be necessary for the completion of these buildings, and that after thatyou contemplate purchasing additional ground as occa- sion may render it necessary ? — I think in all proba- bility it would provide space for much more than five or six years, but the future increase is so difficult to estimate, that I should be sorry to fix the precise period when additional ground would be required. 2037. Chairman.] I presume if your plan for the antiquities were adopted, that a good many of the requirements of the keepers of the natural history department would be met? — I apprehend that so large an extension of space as the acquisi- tion of all the upper floors now occupied by antiquities would provide room for the mammalia, for the osteology, and perhaps for other objects-; but I do not feel myself at all competent to ,-speeify what should be the mode .of its appro- priation, nor have I consulted any of those gen- tlemen in the natural history department who would be competent to give those answers. 0.96. i860. 2038. I think you would appropriate 21,000 feet E. GMfield, to natural history, if you remove the antiquities E>q- from the upper floor ? — According to Mr. Smirke's estimate, there is 21,532 superficial feet of space 2 3 June on the upper floor, which would be available. Then you will observe that I adopt Mr. Panizzi's proposal to remove the great staircase, and to construct a room above, on the site of it. That room_ would have to be added to the 21,532 feet. I believe that such a room would furnish about 2,660 feet of floor space, so that in all, upwards of 24,000 feet of floor space would be trans- ferred ; and observe, it is space of the best cha- racter, being the best lighted and the most accessible to the visitor. The public would be very greatly facilitated in visiting so complicated an institution as the British Museum, if all the objects which belong to natural history were to be found on the upper floor, and all antiquities to be found upon the ground floor, on the left-hand upon entering. 2039. Sir Philip Egerton.~\ I understood you to say, that in the plan you have submitted to the Committee, you contemplate the removal of the principal staircase ? — Certainly. 2040. How, then, is access to be obtained to the natural history galleries ? — I propose to adopt the suggestion of Mr. Panizzi, and to transfer the principal staircase, from its present position on the left-hand in entering, to a position facing the entrance, that is, on the side which leads to the reading-room. 2041. Mr. Ayrton.~\ Between the library and the main building? — Between the library and the main building. That is recommended in a pub- lished report of Mr. Panizzi's, printed by order of the House of Commons. 2042. Mr. Tite.~] You mean two staircases, right and left of the passage leading to the great central library ? — Exactly ; that was Mr. Panizzi's proposal, and a very excellent proposal it is. 2043. In the entrance hall ?— Yes. 2044. Mr. Ayrton.~] Did you mean that it was to be built within the limits of the entrance hall, or the vacant space between the entrance hall and the new library ? — In the vacant space. 2045. Mr. Tite.] Do you then propose four parallel galleries, differing in width as you have described, and all of them to the west of the present building. How do you communicate with them, so as to keep up the chronological arrangement which you have spoken of? — I should explain that with regard 'to chronology, I recommend that the four principal series, the Egyptian, Assyrian, Greek, and Roman, should be placed in that order, which is a chronological order. 2046. I want you to tell me how a person en- tering the building would proceed, so that the chronological order which you desire would be preserved to the spectator ; he would first enter at the great centre ? — Yes. 2047. Then he would turn to the left?— Yes. 2048. What would he first meet with?— He would find the earliest monuments of Egypt in the room, which is at present occupied by the staircase, and is marked No. 69 on the plan. He would there find those monuments of Egypt which are now preserved in the vestibule marked No. 26 ■and No. 36 on the plan, which is a small dark apartment, quite unfitted for .public exhibition. Those are the monuments of the earliesi dynas- ties of Egypt, antecedent to the 18th. s4 2049. I want M4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E. Oldfield, 2049. I want you to tell me which way I should Esc l- go ; you say I come in and go through the room occupied by the two staircases ; what am I to do 23 June then ?— You pass through a room which will con- j 860. tain the early monuments of which I spoke into No. 12, which together with No. 8 would contain the next succeeding monuments of Egypt, those of the 18th dynasty. You would then go into No. 17, containing a continuation of those monu- ments ; thence into No. 22 and No. 25 ; and so having completed the series of Egyptian sculp- ture, you would turn through a small door at the northern extremity into No. 24, and continue through No. 21 to No. 16, and in all those three galleries you would find the small monuments of Egypt, the mummies, the papyri, the scarabasi, and other minor objects. 2050. Chairman.] How much additional space would thereby be given to the two collections ? — Altogether about 7,000 square feet. 2051. Why do you consider they require that additional space? — I am disposed to give them rather a large latitude, for this reason, because the Egyptian gallery is so constructed as not con- veniently to admit of extension. You will observe that at the northern extremity (referring to the plan) is the staircase, and at the southern extremity are the apartments made use of for the business of the general establishment, and as therefore there would be less facility for extension for the Egyptian series than for the Greek and Roman, I think it requisite to be more liberal in the space for that class of sculptures. 2052. Mr. Tite.~] I have brought the visitor to No. 16; which way would he go then? — He would then turn into a room to be constructed over No. 15, on the level of the ground floor, biit not cover- ing the whole of that space, leaving sufficient open space to light the basement below. This would be the commencement of the Assyrian series, beginning with the monuments of Sardana- palus, from Nimrcmd; then going north, removing the staircase, and all those small apartments marked No. 20 ; passing continuously into No. 19 ; thence into a room I propose to build over part of the northern area, removing the small study marked No. 23, and extending as far as the northern boundary line of No- 18 ; he would there find the monuments from Khorsabad, which are the second in the Assyrian series ; then turning westward through a door in the northern portion of No. 18 he would come southward through No. 18 to No. 14, where he would find the monuments from Kouyunjik, which are the third in the Assy- rian series, being chiefly the monuments of Sen- nacherib ; then he would pass into that very small apartment in which would be found the monu- ments from Persepolis. Then he would go into No. 13, the Lycian gallery, where he would find all the purely Lycian monuments, those which are, more strictly speaking, Greek, being removed. 2053. That is the present Lycian gallery ? — Yes. From that point, which commences theGreek series, I should carry the visitor into No. 10, a room which I think avouH be very advantageous for Greek inscriptions, on account of the light being rather acute, owing to the narrowness of the gallery. I should therefore collect the Greek inscriptions in that room. 2054. The old galleries are thereby exhausted ? — Yes. I should then pass into the new ones, to which small passage-rooms have to be con- structed. 2055. Lobbies? — Lobbies, if you please. 2056. If you put at the end of No. 10, obliter- ating that staircase into the southern portion, one of your new galleries, 40 feet wide, what would be arranged in it?— The mode which I should recommend would be to construct an apartment south of No. 10, in a right line with No. 18 and No. 14 ; not a very large, apartment, but which would receive the earliest Greek sculptures, par- ticularly those from Branchidas. It would be necessary to keep the eastern part of that area untouched, in order not to interfere with the light of No. 4 ; and the new room would be a comparatively low room, which would however suffice for the class of sculptures to be placed in it. A room of about 30 feet in length by 25 feet in breadth, and about 20 feet in height, would suffice for the purpose ; and then, turning west, I should pass into the principal series of Greek sculptures. 2057. The first of your four galleries ? — Yes. 2058. Then, do you mean that you would go northward ? — I should then go northward. 2059. And come back southward? — Yes. 2060. Sir G. Grey.] How far would those galleries extend to the north ; would they extend beyond the present line of No. 18 ? — Yes, a little; they would extend from 60 to 70 feet north of that. 2061. That might be done without interfering with the light of any other room, in the present arrangement ? — The northern extremity of this gallery would be about opposite the southern window of the present print room. 2062. What is the number of the present print room ? —No. 30. I apprehend that the small dimi- nution of light which that would cause might be obviated by alterations in the lighting of the print room, which probably might become neces- sary, from other changes than those Avhich my plan would involve. 2063. Mr. Tite.~\ I presume, notwithstanding your desire for a strictly chronological arrange- ment you would have the means of escaping from one gallery into another by cross entrances ? — Undoubtedly, just as there is between the Egyp- tian and the Assyrian series. I propose rooms opening from one into the other, and I look upon that as important in a scientific point of view, in order to enable a person to compare one period of a particular series with the corresponding period of the adjoining series. 2064. Then the fourth gallery towards Char- lotte-street, would be two storeys, and all the rest would be one storey ? — Exactly. 2065. Or it might be three storeys?— I think that^would be inexpedient ; but it would be quite possible. 2066. Mr. Tite.] There is no reason why you should not have three storeys in Charlotte-street? — No architectural reason, I believe. 2067. If you had three storeys, the lower one would be lighted from Charlotte-street and Bed- ford-square, and the two upper ones would be lighted in front, and at the back ?— Exactly. 2068. Mr. Ayrton.~\ Or the upper one from the roof? — The upper one might be lighted by any mode you might prefer. If only one side window is adopted, it is preferable that it should look to the north-east rather than to the south-west ; the light is more convenient for the purposes of study. 2069. Mr. Tite.] You spoke of the Braccio Nuovo in the Vatican ; are you sure that it is lighted by skylights, or is it lighted by very high lights, similar to Freemason's Hall, or by positive side SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 145 side lights ? — My recollection decidedly is, that it is lighted by lights in the centre of the ceiling. 2070. Sir George Grey.'] You stated that you Avould have two or three small bridges over the Toad ? — Those bridges would be very small rooms, similar to the little room in which we propose to put the Persian sculpture. 2071. Chairman.'] Where do you propose to place the Etruscan monuments ? — I think the Etruscan monuments might occupy the southern portion of the third series. If the Etruscan series increased, it would be further extended south- wards, but if the Greco-Roman increased it might be extended northwards. 2072. Mr. Tite.~] You get by these four gal- leries 60,000 feet, if I understand your dimen- sions ? — The amount of ground covered is about 67,500 feet. 2073. Of course the net space would be dimi- nished by reason of the walls ? — Of course. 2074. Then you have to add the additional storey over the gallery to the extreme west, or if there were two storeys you would have to add them both ? — Certainly. 2075. That being so, allowing something for the walls, taking the 67,000 feet in the rough, of the two storeys, it would be 400 feet long and 30 feet wide, twice that is an amount of accommo- dation which it appears to me to be considerably larger than the space which the list given in sug- gests as the additional space required. The additional space required according to the state- ment put in by Mr. Hawkins is 47,000 feet? — Exactly. 2076. That, added to the 75,000 you have now, makes 122,000 ; would you not, after all this is done, have a great deal more than 122,000 ? — I think not. I believe Mr. Hawkins has appended a note to that return, that he would consider it necessary to abandon about 14,500 feet of the basement as unfit for public exhibition. It would consequently be necessary to provide that amount in addition to what is mentioned in the second column. Moreover, Mr. Hawkins's estimate is merely for the quantity of space required for the purpose of exhibition rooms, but not taking into account the additional space required for ware- housing, for studies, for workshops, and for the various purposes of the establishment. 2077. Or for the extensions, in point of fact ? — It provides a plan which would at. any time admit of future extensions. 2078. Sir George Grey.] By the acquisition of new ground ? — Yes ; we do not at all apprehend that such extensions would be necessary within -any short time. 2079. Chairman,] Your present plan provides for all moderate accessions ? — Certainly ; I should feel little doubt that, even although the whole of our present collections were advantageously ar- ranged in such new galleries, there would remain a space of probably not less than 20 per cent, over for incorporating new additions into those gal- leries. 2080. Mr. Ayrton.] You have now 39,300 feet of groundfloor space ? — Are you referring to the estimate of Mr. Smirke ? 2081. Yes. — Allow me to point out that that space includes the various purposes to which I just now referred in my answer to Mr. Tite. That is not all exhibition space, although it is all space made use of by our department. 2082. You would increase the 39,000 feet of groundfloor by 67,000 feet less the old space of 0.96. groundfloor ? — I reckon that on the groundfloor the addition which I should obtain would be about 57,000 feet. 2083. Of net space ?— Yes. 2084. Sir George Grey.] Is that exhibition space ? — No ; for exhibition not so much. 2085. Mr. Ayrton.] How much would you get of that space for the purpose of exhibition on the groundfloor by your new buildings ? — It is diffi- cult to answer that question wthout referring to the details of the plan which I have prepared. I cannot,' therefore, give an exact answer. I sup- pose it will be prudent to make a deduction of 10 per cent, for other uses than exhibition. Sir Philip Egerton stated that there would be no objection raised on the part of the trustees to the production by the witness of his plan. 2086. What do you consider will be the re- sult? — I estimate that the internal space which I should obtain would be about 57,000 feet on the principal floor, but I wish that to be taken as a very rough statement. 2087. That would be an accession of space on the groundfloor ? — Yes. 2088. Then if you had a building of two storeys fronting Charlotte-street, you would get 24,000 feet in those two storeys ? — If there were two upper storeys, one over the other, I think there would be, but I only proposed one upper floor. 2089. You see no objection to, building one storey, and then another above that, lighted by skylights ? — I think it would be practicable, but the public would rather object to having to ascend to so great a height ; at the same time my plan certainly fully admits of such a construction. 2090. Would the plan that you have described admit of extension to Montague-place, if neces- sary, by the introduction of this length? — It would, and likewise to Great Russell-street, but it may be 100 years before that is required ; an ex- tension both north and south. 2091. Would it be any convenience to you to have the space that is now occupied by the office of the trustees and the secretary's office ? — I hardly think it would for any purpose of exhibition. I have never considered this point, because I sup- posed that it would be too inconvenient to the trustees to admit of such a supposition, but speak- ing off-hand, I do not see any use to which that space coiild be conveniently applied, unless the rooms were reconstructed. 2029. Do you mean if the windows were altered ? — If you look at the plan, you will see that there are various divisions of the space which make it impracticable to use it for the purpose of galleries. 2093. Supposing these small partition walls {referring to the plan) were taken out, and so a continuation made of the gallery, would it then be of use ? — I think it would, perhaps, be available for Egyptian sculptures in case they should ever hereafter require extension southwards. 2094. In the same way there would be no inconvenience in extending those galleries north- ward ? — There would be a small space lost here, in No. 26, No. 36, and No. 34. 2095. Such an extension would nearly double the space that you propose to obtain by your present extension 1 — Possibly it might, but I do not expect to live to see such a necessity. 2096. You do not expect to see such an exten- sion required in your lifetime ? — Certainly not. T 2097. Chairman.] E. Oldfield, Esq. 28 June i860. 146 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E. Oldfield, i8 June i860. 2097. Chairman.] Does your plan embrace the retension of all the collections in your department which are at present in the British Museum ?— I certainly have not in this calculation allowed for ethnography, because it appears to me that it is the general opinion of persons more competent than myself, that it might be expedient to sepa- rate that collection from the department of anti- quities. It appears to be the opinion of Mr. Hawkins, that if ethnography be retained in the department, it would be necessary at least to quadruple the space which we at present possess for its exhibition. I do therefore propose the with- drawal of that collection. 2098. Does your plan provide for the small Oriental collections which have already been alluded to ?— No ; I think that the same reasoning applies very much to them ; I very much doubt whether it would be possible for our department, without some greater extension than I fear we can at all expect to obtain, to provide for the Oriental collections in a manner adequate to the nation which possesses British India. 2099. I presume the modification of these rooms which you have alluded to, would entail some expense, would it not?— Of course. 2100. Have you made any calculation as to what that expense would be ? — That can hardly be done, except by an architect, or other pro- fessional person ; but I apprehend it would hardly be likely much to exceed such a sum as 10,000 I. 2101. Then I understand the total expense of the plan which you have suggested, which would give up the whole of the upper floor to the natural history collections, would provide for the systematic and philosophical arrangement of the collections of the department of antiquities, would amount to a sum not exceeding 250,0007.,, in- cluding the price of the ground and the erection of the buildings? — I should say confidently, as far as I can rely on the data with which the Committee has been furnished, that it could not reach that amount. 2102. Mr. Ayrton.] Do you not think that the two upper storeys of the building in Charlotte- street would be sufficiently large to contain the present ethnographical collection ? — No doubt it would ; but if such upper storeys were erected, I should certainly prefer to apply them to the ex- tension of the more proper collections of the de- partment of antiquities. 2103. Will you explain the distinction between proper antiquities and the ethnographical collec- tion f — Ethnography is not archaeology. The col- lections were formed for different purposes, with different views, and they are studied by different people. 2104. Chairman.] As we understand, there is no objection on the part of the trustees to your putting in the plan to which you have referred, we shall feel obliged by your doing so ? — Very well. I may hand in a table which Mr. Hawkins was instructed to prepare, and which he requested me to produce to tha Committee. \_Handing the same, which is as follows ;] Space Additional Total Occupied. Space Requiied. Requiied. Egyptian - 18,026 6,974 25,000 Assyrian 12,410 2,090 14,500 Persepolilan . - 250 250 Lycian (exclusive of Grseco-Lycian) 2,736 - 2,736 Greek Sculptures - 11,502 15,938 27,500 Etruscan Tombs and Sculptures . 2,475 755 3,250 Roman Sculptures and Mosaics -} 7,344 1,406 8,750 Anglo-Roman ditto Grseco-Roman Sculptures 3,844 2,156 6,000 Phoenician Sculptures . 288 462 750 Oriental ditto „ . J, 500 1,500 Mexican and Peruvian 750 750 Painted Vases - . 4,321 1,679 6,000 Terracottas Glass :} 1,268 982 2,250 Bronzes - 2,021 479 2,500 Gems, Ivories, Gold Ornaments, &c. 750 - 750 CoinsandMedals (Public Exhibition) \ Ditto (Private) - - - 1 Ditto (Preservation and Arrange- f 999 1,761 2,750 rnent) * -J British Small Antiquities Mediaeval ditto - :} 4,046 1,954 6,000 Ethnographical Collection 2,254 7,746 10,000 Temple Collection {included in the above). - Total 74,344 46,892 121,236 Of the 75,569 square feet now occupied, 14,577 are in the basement, and are quite unfit for the exhibition of sculpture ; that space must therefore be added to 46,892 feet, as additional space re- quired, making together 61,469 ; space for work- shops, studies, staircases, moulds and casts, and private uses of the establishment, are not included. William Carpenter, Esq., called in; and Examined. if- 2105. Chairman. ] You are, I think, the Keeper Carpenter, f the Department of Prints ? — I am. ^ s 1- 2106. Are you very inconveniently circum- * stanced at present with regard to the collection under your charge ? — Peculiarly so, inasmuch as we are already obliged to place the cabinets in the passage leading from the staircase to the room. 2107. That is in a situation apart from your collection ?■ — It is the passage from the staircase into the print-room ; it is a wide passage. 2108. Can you give the Committee any in- formation as to the amount of additional space that you would require for proper exhibition- rooms '.' — It would be necessary to have a room of about the same proportions as the one we now have for the reception of accumulations during the next half century. 2109. Do you mean a room of the same size as the room in which your prints are at present de- posited? — An additional room of about the same proportions. 2110. In which the prints are at present de- posited ? — Yes ; and I would suggest that there should be rooms above the present print room, and the proposed new room, lighted from above, and divided down the centre, so as to offer four walls instead of two. 2111. Sir G. Grey.] Where do you propose, then, that the new room should be over which you propose to construct an additional room ? — You will observe a blank space between the Elgin room and the insect room. 2112. Sir Philip Egerton.] You propose to re- move the insects, and to build up a room on the site of your present building, extending south- wards to the Elgin room ? — Allow me to observe, the proposition made does not involve the removal, nor SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 147 nor will it in any way interfere with the insect room, over which the present print room is built. The suggestion offered is, that upon the blank space marked as 31 on the plan, a room may be built, over which room, and over the present print room, two chambers might be erected, lighted from above, which would furnish ample space for the public exhibition of prints and drawings. 2113. Sir G. Grey.~\ You, in point of fact, would occupy the space of No. 31 by this plan? — Yes. 2114. You propose to build that two storeys high ? — I propose not only to build that two storeys high, but that another storey should be added to the room I now occupy. 2115. Chairman.] Would not that very much interfere with the light of the Egyptian gallery ? — I think it is too far away from that to interfere with it. 2116. Have you formed any calculation as to the amount of space which you would require for exhibition ? — I think that two rooms of about 60 feet by 40 feet, and as I mentioned, divided down the centre to allow of the surface of four walls for the exhibition of prints and drawings, would be ample for public exhibition. 2117. I suppose you would shift your drawings occasionally? — They would be changed every eighteen months or two years. 2118. Would you exhibit them according to schools ? — Yes, in same way they are now ex- hibited in the King's Library. 2119. Sir G. Grey.] How do you propose to light that room, which you would build on the area marked No. 31 on this plan? — In the same way as the present print room, that is, a light from the west, with three windows. 2120. Did you hear Mr. Oldfield's evidence, in which he proposes to carry a new gallery parallel to No. 18, extending as far as the line of No. 30, which would, of course, obstruct the light com- pletely from those west windows which you pro- pose to put in your new room ; are those two suggestions compatible with each other ? — I fear not ; I do not know what space there would be between ; I do not know what altitude Mr. Old- field proposes. 2121. Chairman.] Do you attach very much importance to the retention in the British Museum of the drawings, as well as the prints 1 — I think that it is important they should be kept together. 2122. Do you not think that the drawings of the great masters have more affinity with the pictures of the great masters, than they have with prints ? — They may, certainly, inasmuch as they very often furnish the first motives of the painter. 2123. Therefore, do you not think that they would be more adapted to the National Gallery, than to be retained in the British Museum ? — It is the case, in some of the Continental Museums, that they are under different curators ; in France, it is especially the case ; the drawings being in the Louvre, and the prints in the Bibliotheque Imperiale. 2124. On what prinoiple do you recommend the purchase of drawings ? — I should recommend that anything that was really very good of any "' • period, or of any school, should be purchased. Carpenter, 2125. As a work of art? — As a work of art, or s< *' as furnishing a link between one period and g j another. l86o> 2126. Do you calculate that you are likely to have any considerable accession to your depart- ment? — We shall be always adding, there is no doubt, because many of the schools are very incomplete ; the French and Spanish schools, for instance, are by no means efficiently represented. 2127. Do you see any great objection to the separations of the drawings from the prints ? — I confess not ; at the same time I am very loath that they should be sent away from the Mu- seum, because they form the more interesting portion. 2128. Mr. Ayrton.] Is there any facility af- forded for copying the original drawings ? — Yes ; any student or person desirous of copying has admission to the print room, and is allowed to make what copy he thinks proper. 2129. Facilities are given for setting and making copies ? — Yes, every accommodation possible. 2130. Are there many students who come there? — We have upon an average 10 per diem, that is, who really come for the purpose of drawing. 2131. For the purpose of making copies? — Yes. 2132. Are they for the most part the same students coming continuously from day to day ? — They vary considerably ; they are not the same individuals. 2133. How many at present are on your list for permission who really come occasionally in the year to draw? — It would be impossible to say; I have already issued 134 tickets for the present year. 2134. To people who come to draw ? — I cannot say that. 2135. How many persons hold admissions for the purpose of copying the drawings in your charge? — Many persons certainly. 2136. Can you give any idea of the number ? — I think you might find half a dozen drawing or making copies in the course of the day, but it is impossible to say how many persons there are come to draw, because there is no distinctive ticket given to the mere visitor or the student. 2137. Can you tell how many visitors there are altogether who come there to copy drawings ? —I should think there might be between 200 and 300. 2138. Mr. Stirling.] Have you a collection of books belonging to the print room which you keep for one or two days, and which do not go into the library? — Works connected with art are occasionally purchased. 2139. Can you give an idea of the number of volumes that you have ? — I suppose that we have 150 to 200 volumes for reference; biographies of painters, such as Vasari, and books of that de- scription. 2140. At present you have no exhibition for the public ? — Yes, prints and drawings are exhi- bited on screens in the King's Library. 0.96. T 2 148 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Luna, 2° die Julii, 1860. MEMBERS PRESENT : Mr. Ayrton. Sir Philip Egerton. Mr. Gregory. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Knight. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Tite. Mr. Walpole. Mr. W. H. GREGORY, in the Chair. The Rev. Dr. Grigg Hewlett, called in ; and Examined. Iter. Dr. 2141. Chairman^ You are, I believe, an In- G. Hewlett, dependent Minister, residing in the Tower Ham- lets?— Yes. 2 July i860. 2142. How long have you resided in that locality? — About 15 years. 2143. I suppose you have obtained during that time a considerable insight into the intelligence and the habits of the working classes amongst whom you have been moving ? — -Very much so. I have gone among them a great deal, and made that a subject of inquiry. 2144. What is the result of the observations which you have made? — I have found a very large amount of intelligence among them, and great curiosity, especially with reference to natural history. 1 have found several very valuable col- lections which they have made, especially of entomology, and some of them in ornithology, and they are all of them at the present time ex- pressing very great anxiety for much more en- larged facilities for pursuing those studies. 2145. Are the working classes in the east of London, with whom you are acquainted, in the habit of visiting the British Musuem ? — Yes ; as far as they can do so ; they complain of the great distance ; and when they do visit it, they visit it specifically, that is to say, to find out the name of some object, which they have obtained, and about which they are uncertain ; they complain that the distance is so very great that they cannot go so often as they would wish ; but they still show great earnestness in these studies, by getting what books they can,borrowing amongst themselves, and form- ing little libraries in their own neighbourhood for that purpose. 2146. Do they show any desire to take their wives and families with them when they visit the British Museum? — -Yes; I have known several instances of that, in which they have done it; but they always complain about the expense of going such a distance. 2147. I presume that the objections which they have to the British Museum, on account of the distance and expense, would be increased, if it were necessary to go so far as Kensington to visit the collections, which they are in the habit of examining, when they go to the British Mu- seum ? — Yes ; I have asked them the question, whether they have been to the Kensington Museum, and I have not met with more than one instance, in which a man and his family have been there ; and that ujDon the grounds to which I have just referred ; several of them have lifted up their hands, and said " Kensington ! oh dear no, that would require a whole day; we should lose a whole day's work through it." 2148. Do you consider that the natural history- collections, of the British Museum, are a great attraction to the working men 1 — I think so, from the remarks that I have heard them make, from, time to time. 2149. Do you know any working men who> show much earnestness in the study of any parti- cular science ? — Yes, so much so that they have formed societies in the neighbourhood for the very purpose ; I have in my hand now, specimens of two of those societies, which have been formed entirely by working men ; the title of one society is "Rules and Regulations of the Working Man's Entomo- logical, Botanical, and Natural History Society.'* 2150. Where is that society held? — It is held at a small public-house called the " Pearson's Arms Tavern," in Pearson-street, Kingsland-road ; andl have ascertained that there are 60 members be- longing to that society. In another, to which I will now refer, there are 60 members belonging to it. " Rules of the Haggerstone Entomological Society, held at the Carpenters' Arms, Martha- street, Haggerstone." These places will illustrate what I before said, that they gather together col- lections for themselves at each of these places ; and there you will find collections which their united efforts in the society have produced ; the objects of these societies are clearly stated in this rule : " It shall be the duty of the curator to take charge, " &c. (reading to the words, " and also to attend to their due and systematic arrangement.") I confess that I was exceedingly pleased when I made this dis- covery. 2151. Do you believe that many of the working classes, so far as you are acquainted with them, in your locality, occupy their holidays in botanizing, or geologizing, and in collecting insects ?— Yes, a great many of them do that ; they go down some- times into distant parts in Kent ; I had an ex- ample, a short time ago, of a man who on Easter Monday, instead of spending his day in the public- house, went down into Kent, and brought back some stems of the thistle, in which a certain moth deposits its eggs, in which the chrysalis is formed, and he has them by him now, as he says, rearing the butterflies. There are several illustrations of that kind which might be furnished. 2152. I presume that they naturally take a very great interest in the British collections of the British Museum? — Yes; and we have had good examples of that in the interest they take in a museum. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 149 a museum near us, by the number which has attended at the East India Museum. 2153. How many have visited that museum? — Two hundred thousand attended there during ten months. 23 54. Did any loss or injury occur during that period of time ? — Not a single article was injured, and only one article was missing ; it could not be said positively that that article was stolen. 2155. Is there in the Tower Hamlets now, any free public museum? — None whatever, because we can scarcely call the East India Museum now our own. I have received letters stating how that is to be distributed ; with that one exception, we have no public museum there. 2156. Do you think that those persons to whom you have alluded in the east of London, would be very much dissatisfied if the only collections of natural history which are at all within their reach, should be taken from them ? — I am sure that they would be so ; most certainly they would be dissa- tisfied ; and I could produce, I think, in one fort- night, a document signed by upwards of 10,000 working men, who are desirous to have a museum at that end of the town. 2157. Do you think, as far as you are acquainted with these intelligent working men, to whom you have referred, that they are generally dissatisfied with knowing merely the ■ common names of the objects which they collect, and that they would prefer to make an effort to learn the scientific names? — I am sure that they are not satisfied with knowing merely the common names, and, as I stated before, they pay these visits frequently, for no other purpose. My own son was asked only a short time ago to accompany another youth to the British Museum, merely to find out the name of a curious moth; other instances of a similar kind have come under my own immediate notice. I believe that they are anxious to learn the scien- tific names as well as the common names. 2158. Is it your opinion that any increased facilities for the study of natural history would be much appreciated by the working classes in your district ? — There is not the least doubt that they would be highly appreciated. And the evi- dence that I have brought in reference to the use made of the East Indian Museum, I think, corroborates my statement ; I have observed that where there are little private museums, they are very highly valued, and visited by friends and by a great number of these working men who are :glad to receive any instruction that they can .get. There is one most valuable collection in our neighbourhood ; I suppose the most valuable collection in conchology to be found in all Europe ; I know the lady who is the proprietor ■• of that, and she is very glad to admit any person to see it. 2159. Can you suggest any means by which further facilities for pursuing the study of natural history could be afforded ? — The plan that I have contemplated, and in which I have taken a great deal of interest, has been to get, if possible, a museum, and a library at the eastern part of the .metropolis, where there should be not only a good collection of specimens in natural history, but where there should be lectures delivered, of course by competent men, and a library associated with it; I believe that those means would be highly appreciated and frequently used by the working classes in the eastern part of London. 2160. Have you made any application to the Government for a grant of land in Victoria Park ? 0.96. — Yes, and I am sorry to say that we have been Rev. Dr. met by that which amounts to a refusal ; the reply G. Hewlett. has been that none of the Crown lands in the ' vicinity of Victoria Park can be given but for these 2 July i860 purposes, for a church, for a school, for a school- house, or for a clergyman's house ; but they cannot give a piece[of land for any other purpose, and there- fore they offer to us a portion of land, of the size we should require, at the rate of 100/. per acre, if we take it at the west end of the park, near Bonner's Fields, or at 50 1, per acre annually, if we take a piece at the east end of the park ; so that that is the position in which we are now placed. I confess that there is a great deal of excitement now going on in the Tower Hamlets among the people, who think themselves very hardly done by that so much money should be expended at Kensington and nothing done for them. 2161. Are both the sites to which you have referred inconvenient ? — They would be admirably adapted, but especially the one at the south- western corner, near Bonner's Eields. 2162. I presume the objection is the rent that the Government would charge for that land ?— Yes, that is our principal objection ; we have numerous friends who would help us to raise the building, I believe, forthwith'. The building, perhaps, would cost 20,000 1. ; but that might be raised by voluntary subscriptions in a very short period, could we have the ground given to us by the Government. 2163. In case you obtained a site for a museum in the east of London, and erected a building, do you think the feelings of the persons in your part of the world would lead them to accept an ethno- graphical collection ? — I have no doubt that they would be most happy to receive any contribution, especially an ethnographical one. 2164. I mean a collection of the arms, imple- ments, furniture, gods, &c, of rarely visited tribes ? — Yes ; that which indicates the charac- teristics of different races. I have no doubt that the inhabitants of the east of London would more contribute to a collection of that sort than to almost any other, as we have so many seafaring men connected with us. 2165. You think that the inhabitants would gladly accept a collection of that kind if it were offered to them ? — Yes. 2166. Mr. Ayrton.~\ They would have great facilities for extending it, would they not? — Yes. 2167. Chairman.] Do you think it would be very much enlarged by donations ? — There is no doubt about it. 2168. Do you think that a collection of mine- ralogy would be also appreciated for a museum in that district ? — Yes, I believe it would be highly appreciated. 2169. Presuming that the British Museum could furnish superfluous specimens to you, would you be prepared to receive those specimens, al- though they might not be complete collections ?— Most certainly, we should be glad to receive them s for more reasons than one, not merely for their intrinsic value, but because it would be a stimulus to the inhabitants of the east to try to complete that collection. 2170. They would be more especially accept- able if they were British, I presume? — Yes; there is a valuable one in the Bow-road, belonging to C. Francis, Esq. 2171. Mr. Jyrton.] What is the exact expense T 3 * - o £ 150 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Rev. Dr. f travelling from the east of London to Kensing- G. Hewlett, ton for each person ? — I do not think they could get there under 10 d., or 9d. perhaps. 2 July i860. 2172. And 9d. back?— Yes. 2173. For a family of four it would cost 3 s. ? — Yes. 2174. Do you know whether in Finsbury and in Shoreditch, and those neighbourhoods, a great many working people reside, who are engaged in the art of moulding and gilding?— Yes, a great number. 2175. And working in wood ? — Yes; especially in Curtain-road, in wood. 2176. And in Finsbury they work in metals; gold and silver? — More so in Clerkenwell. 2177. More so than in any other part of London ? — I think so. 2178. In Spitalfields they are weavers? — Yes. 2179. Exclusively as to the rest of London ? — Almost so; there are a great many carpenters there ; there is a Mr. Thorne, who is a carpenter and cabinet-maker, who has a very valuable col- lection. 2180. The cultivation of taste is more necessary for the working people who reside in those parts of London than for those in any other part of London? — Yes ; I believe that the cultivation of taste would be of infinite value to the weaver, in order to enable him to compete with the continental manufacturers. 2181. Chairman.] Are there any lectures, at any time, delivered in your neighbourhood? — Yes, and they are generally well attended, if they are on any subject relating to natural history. One was delivered at Limehouse not long ago by Mr. Whitehead, and it was crowded to excess, although they had to pay for it. 2182. On what subject? — It was on Sir John Franklin's Expedition. 2183. I presume that a lecture of that kind would be considerably illustrated by an ethno- graphical collection ? — Yes, and one man was there who was employed by Mr. Whitehead to wear the dress of an Esquimaux. 2184. How many persons were present? — I believe upwards of 500, from the report I read. 2185. Of what class of people? — Quite the middling class, and a great many of the working classes. 2186. Mr. Ayrton.] You mean shopkeepers and working people ? — Yes, tradesmen and operatives. 2187. Chairman.~\ I believe you have delivered lectures in that part of London yourself? — Yes, in one of the lowest parts of the neighbourhood, at the King Edward School, and in other places. 2188. Have you found those lectures well at- tended ? — Yes, and not only well attended, but I am sure they were well understood. After deli- vering one of those lectures ("on the wonders of the eye"), although the place was crowded, and before any of my friends could rise to move the usual vote of thank?, one poor man, in his work- ing dress and with unwashed hands, said, " May I be allowed to move a vote of thanks ? I came here expecting to hear a number of difficult words, and I did not at all expect to understand the sub- ject ; but I thoroughly understand it, and I have quite enjoyed it, and therefore I propose a vote of thanks." This was a working man, quite un- known to me. 2189. The lectures which you have delivered have been attended chiefly by the workino- classes ? — Entirely, and they have always been illustrated by diagrams. 2190. Do you find that they study and endea- vour to obtain books connected with natural his- tory?— Yes, and I have been surprised to find the number of excellent books that they have by them. There is one little cheap periodical which I found in a great number of the houses, called " Yon ng England," and they value it because of the number of illustrations of natural history that it contains. I found also Stainton's Manual in two volumes, and another by a lady of the name of Maria Catlow. 2191. On the whole, the Committee may infer that you think the removal of the natural history, collections from the British Museum would be viewed with very great dissatisfaction by the working classes with whom you are acquainted, in the east of London ? — To remove them further from them, certainly they would be. If you could remove them nearer to them, they would be most highly acceptable, and be received, I believe, with universal thankfulness. 2192. Mr. Monckton Milnes.] Do you consider that the present situation of the British Museum is fully convenient for the purposes of the popu- lation among whom you reside? — Very incon- venient. 2193. Do you hear the working men complain of the time it takes them to get there ?• — -I fre- quently hear them complain of it. 2194. Would it therefore be a great con- venience to those persons if a local museum of natural history were established in your district, in the place of the collections in the present British Museum ? — It would be a great advan- tage to the whole of the Tower Hamlets, and be highly valued, I believe, by almost every one living there. 2195. You stated that it would cost a working man 9 d. to travel from the east end of London to Kensington ? — Yes. 2196. How do you calculate that ? — I made a mistake in the first instance. I calculated it from Tredegar-square, where I live, which is near Bow ; it would be 4d. to the city, and then he would have to take another omnibus from the city to Kensington, which would cost another 6d., > making 10 of. ; but, to be fair upon the matter, I have been speaking about Bethnal-green ; they would start from the turnpike at Mile-end, and it would cost therefore only 3 d. to the city ; then from the Bank to Kensington another 6d., making 9d. 2197. Would not the river be the natural course by which a large portion of that popula- tion would go to the other end of the town ? — They would be obliged to come to London Bridge in the first instance. 2198. Would a walk to London Bridge, an excursion by water to Chelsea, and a walk from: Chelsea to Kensington, be more than would come within the ordinary compass of a working man's trip, who wished to spend his afternoon at his leisure ? — The consumption of time would be a very serious thing with him, as well as the ex- penditure of strength, which would leave him weary before he reached Kensington. It would be a cheaper way, that which you have just stated, probably, and might be more beneficial to those who had not endured fatigue previously. Some of them, when they are going to make a holiday, I find begin to work at four in the morning ; I have known them to begin to work before four, in order to be able to spare the time. 2199. Do you not think that in any exhibi- tions, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 15* iions, such as that of the British Museum, or any other, the main utility to the mass of the people is in affording innocent and useful recreation to them when they have leisure to enjoy it ? — I think that certainly is one of the advantages ; but I believe there are other men who seek a higher advantage than mere gratification. 2200. I understood you to say that by far the greater part of the people who visited the British Museum visited it as a holiday excursion ? — Yes, to a certain extent; but there are others who visit it to help their study in entomology, or some other branch of natural history. 2201. Do you think that the number of those is considerable ? — Yes, and the number would be greater if the Museum were more. accessible. 2202. Would not the object of that class of persons in gaining what, after all, must be ele- mentary information, be more fully accomplished by having a fair collection of natural history nearer to their own locality than by the very abundant stores of the British Museum? — Yes; I think so to a great extent. The great object that I have in taking a deep interest in this move- ment is the moral tendency of the thing. 2203. You mentioned an instance in which a man went to see a particular moth at the British Museum ? — Yes ; I said a youth. 2204. Do you suppose he went to look at that moth as an object of exhibition, or that he went to ask the curator of that department to show it to him out of a drawer ? — No ; he knew the class to which it belonged, and he went to find out the species. 2205. It would, therefore, be necessary for him to see it ; to have it exhibited ?— He found it there in the collection. 2206. He did not go to look at it in a drawer? — No ; it was exhibited in one of the glass cases. 2207. Therefore it is necessary for a purpose of that kind that there should be a large collection and a number of objects exhibited ? — Yes. 2208. Mr. Tite.~] How many institutions are Rev. Dr. there in the Tower Hamlets for literary and G. Hewlett. scientific purposes ; there is the Beaumont Insti- tution? — Yes, and I think the only one of that 2 July i860, kind. 2209. And one in Commercial-road, close to Whitehorse-street ? — Yes, at Limehouse ; I think when you have mentioned the Beaumont Institu- tion, that is almost the only one of any extent we can boast of in the east end of London, as being a literary institution, where there is a library, and connected with which there is a good large reading room, where a goodly number of newspapers are taken in. 2210. That, I believe, is a private endowment, by Mr. Barber Beaumont? — Yes; but it is sup- ported by subscriptions. 2211. Is there any room for a museum there ? —No. 2212. Do you know the institution near White- horse-street, in the Commercial-road ?— No, I do not. 2213. When you speak of the east end of Lon- don, you do not, of course, speak of the City of London? — No; only of the Tower Hamlets, out of the city. 2214. Beyond the walls?— Yes. 2215. Mr. Ayrton.~\ Which do you think is most calculated to improve the people, to make a holiday excursion to Kensington, or to be able to go in an evening to visit a museum without any great trouble or expense ? — I should say decidedly, that that which they would prefer would be to have the gratification near them ; their apprecia- tion of Victoria Park leads me to make that remark, namely, that they would appreciate the benefit that was near to them, and available at all times. 2216. Would it be desirable to encourage them to go again and again, to visit a place like that, that they might acquire a taste for such pursuits ? — Yes, most desirable. Sidney Smirke, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 2217. Chairman.] You are Acting Architect to the British Museum ? — Yes. 2218. Have you prepared any plan for the en- largement of the Museum since the one you sent in, in December 1857 ? — In 1857 I made a sketch for a plan. 2219. That, I think, is plan number 21 in the Parliamentary Paper 379? — Yes, and in the report that accompanies that you will see that I particularly guard myself as to the plan not being considered as a detailed arrangement, but merely a plan to show the capabilities of the ground. 2220. Will you inform the Committee for which departments that plan was intended to pro- vide ? — It was intended to provide for an exten- sion of the antiquities and the natural history departments. 2221. Before you prepared that plan, did you consult the heads of those departments of natural history and antiquities as to the adaptation of the galleries to their respective wants ? — No ; it was not ripe for that ; it was too crude a suggestion to enable me to go to the officers for particulars as to the mode of arranging. '2222. I do not exactly refer to that; but as to the adaptation of the galleries in general, did you consult the officers? — No, because that was a plan made as a sort of block plan to explain the capa- 0.96. bilities of the site, a site which might be appro- priated in various and different ways. 2223. I see that the plan, as printed in this paper, was presented to the British Museum, so I suppose I may consider it expressed your views '{ — The second one expressed my views more than the first ; and even that I should be very desirous of modifying. 2224. Mr. Walpole.] Was not the first plan rather to get space, than to define specific arrange- ments ? — Certainly : I never thought that that arrangement was to be in the least degree definite ; when a definite plan was , being considered, I should certainly go to the officers and get their advice. 2225. Mr. Ayrton.\ It was a suggested archi- tectural appropriation of the space, without refer- ence to any particular purposes to which it was to be applied ? — Certainly. 2226. Chairman.'] Which do you think was the primary object of the extension, increase of accommodation, or architectural display ? — En- tirely increase of accommodation. 2227. Do you not think that in preparing large plans for new buildings, the architect should en- deavour rather to adapt the galleries to the col- lections, than the collections to the galleries ? — It is quite obvious that that should be done. T 4 2228. You S. Smirke,] Esq. 152 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE £. Smirke, 2228. You agree with the observation, I pre- Esq. sume, of Mr. Panizzi, that the coat should be • made to fit the man, rather than the man be made 2 July i860. to fit the coat ?— That is self-evident. 2229. Does not that principle necessarily involve this, that before any gallery is planned, its con- tents should be decided upon? — Yes, certainly. 2230. Does not that also involve this, that the structure of the galleries should be varied accord- ing to the different classes of objects to which they would be appropriated? — Whenever it is definitively known what is to be placed in that gallery, it is certainly the duty of all to make that gallery as -fit as possible for that purpose. 2231. Should there not be a variation in the breadth and height, and lighting of the galleries for sculptures, which vary so much as the sculp- tures in the British Museum? — Yes, certainly; there are large objects, and very small objects, and it might be injudicious to place them all in the same room. 2232. Do you not think that a different arrange- ment is required for extensive and connected groups, like the pedimental figures of the Par- thenon, and for long flat friezes like those of the Nimroud Galleries, and for isolated statues and busts, like the Roman ? — Yes ; it is desirable, of course, to shape the walls to the purpose they are destined for; during the 13 or 14 years that I have been connected with the Museum, I think in almost every case the galleries have been made for the purpose to which they were appropriated ; the rooms built under my direction were planned with the cognizance of the officers; whether in the Greek room, the Grffico-Roman room, or the Assyrian rooms. 2233. Mr. Tite.] And the Lycian room?— Yes ; but that was before my time. 2234. Chairman-] I see in this plan before me a large gallery, proposed to be lighted by sky- lights ; what sculptures do you propose to place in that room ? — As I told you, the appropriation was quite undefined. 2235. You did not contemplate, in that par- ticular gallery, putting any particular objects ? — Bas-reliefs would be suitable for it, the heavy sculptures being down in the basement. 2236. That is the Assyrian sculptures? — Or any other ; the Greek sculptures are now waiting for room ; they might be placed there. 2237. I presume you would not put bas-reliefs in this basement gallery along with the Greek sculp- tures ? — Not the Assyrian bas-reliefs; the Greek bas-reliefs might go with the Greek sculptures. 2238. I believe the width of those galleries is about 50 feet ; the gallery lighted by skylight is 60 feet, is it not? — Yes, the others are drawn about 40, I think. 2239. Do you think as to small fragments, such as votive tablets, and other articles of no particular artistic beauty, but which might be con- sidered worth keeping in the Museum, it would be well to devote so much space as galleries of 50 or 40 feet for their exhibition ? — No. I think it is very likely if it was intended to put ex- clusively small objects in those galleries, we should make them considerably less, so as to have their light on one side, speaking of the ground- floor, where there must be a side light. 2240. They would be better seen in a small room ? — Yes. 2241. In those galleries in which you have made an appropriation, how would you place the larger statues ? — There has been no appropriation ; these plans were made merely to show the ground, and the mode by which the ground may be covered with buildings ; neither the arrangement of the walls nor the appropriation of the rooma has ever been made. 2242. Mr. Ayrton.] If you were going to make a plan for the purposes of construction, you would then obtain statements from the curators of the museum as to what they required exactly, and then you would prepare a plan for the purpose of giving them that accommodation ?— Certainly ; the whole matter would be entirely reconsidered before any final arrangement wa^s settled on. 2243. Mr. Walpole.] The first object is to get space, and the second to make the arrangements ? Yes ; that was really our object, and the sole object at that time was to show what the space would allow ; but I never in the least calculated upon-, that plan being criticised at all. 2244. Mr. Ayrton.] As applicable to any par- ticular purpose ? — No. 2245. Mr. Tite.] Because it is not appropriated, in your mind to any especial purpose ? — No ; I did not know whether the trustees would give the ground floor to the natural history, and the upper floor to the antiquities, or vice versa. 2246. Chairman.] You do not consider that the galleries, as shown in Plan 21, really would be galleries adapted for the proper representation of sculpture ? — I am sure that they could be made to be so. 2247. By extensive alterations ? — When I knew what the appropriation was to be, I should make considerable alterations in that plan. 2248. In every case in any plan that you might prepare, you would consider it necessary to know exactly the collections for which the galleries you were going to design were intended? — It is most important that I should know that. 2249. And you would invariably adapt those galleries to that purpose ? — No doubt it would be my obvious duty to do so. 2250. Is it important that bas reliefs should avoid a direct front light ? — Yes ; a direct front light would be the worst you could give to bas reliefs. 2251. You would be satisfied with a side light or a top light ? — Yes. 2252. But you would decidedly object to a direct front light? — Certainly; and it should not be a too diffused light either. 2253. Then if a building of this description, with two floors, one intended for natural history, and the other for archaeology, was built, it would be necessary to have a direct front light, would it not, for large bas-reliefs, assuming that you employ those galleries for them ?— It entirely de- pends upon where the bas-reliefs are placed. 2254. Where could you put them in this plan without having a direct front light ? — I do not know what bas-reliefs are to be placed there. 2255. Take the Assyrian bas-reliefs, in the basement? — They should have not too remote a. light, nor too diffused a light. I think that that front room could hardly be well made fit for the Assyrian sculptures. 2256. Where you have a second floor, could any of those galleries below b e made available for the Assyrian bas-reliefs?—! think that the gallery might be made somewhat wider, having a longi- tudinal division through the centre ; that would give a quantity of wall room for a certain class of objects, such as vases, terra cottas, mosaics, and the like, but not suitable for the Assyrian sculptures j SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 153 sculptures ; I do not see how the Assyrian sculp- ture could he well placed in that room. 2257. Or in any of these galleries ? — Yes ; it could he very well placed in the galleries that are lighted hy skylight. I should mention to the Committee, as to skylight, that there are 45,600 superficial feet out of 73,520 feet that would be lighted hy skylight by that plan. 2258. In your opinion, for the proper exhibi- tion of the sculptures, skylight is preferable to window lights ? — Yes, no doubt, generally. 2259. I think you have already expressed an opinion that the only gallery which cannot be said to be properly lighted in the British Museum, in the antiquities department, is the Egyptian, which has cross lights ? — Yes. 2260. In the plan before me, the greater por- tion of the galleries, with the exception of the medal galleries, would involve cross lights ? — Not necessarily cross lights ; supposing it divided longi- tudinally into two, you would have side lights on one side only and not cross lights. 2261. Presuming these galleries were divided into two ? — Yes. 2262. If they were not divided into two, how would it be then ? — Then 40 feet would be too wide for lights on one side only, I think. 2263. It would be necessary, under any circum- stances, I suppose, to contract the size of these galleries, in order to obtain light for your bas reliefs ; 50 feet would be too wide, would it not ? — Yes ; but that plan shows no cross walls at all. 2264. You contemplate cross walls? — Yes; it could hardly be executed with prudence without some ; but as I have already taken the liberty to state, it is not a plan which has been considered in that kind of detail. These cross walls would afford wall room for the exhibition of bas reliefs, but not for continuous lines of them. 2265. Plan 21 represents a building on two stories? — Partly so. 2266. Supposing that at any future time the galleries of natural history required extension beyond what is provided in this plan, how would you extend the upper floor without a corresponding extension of the lower floor ? — You could not extend the upper floor without extending the lower. 2267. What use could be made of the extension of the lower floor ? — The antiquities may be in- creasing pari passu, or other objects might re- quire room ; they have been crying out for space in the print room ; that department has been long wanting wall space. 2268. Am I right in presuming that such a gradual increase of the natural history collections might take place as might make an extension in the upper floor necessary, and that then it would be necessary to extend the lower floor, without having, perhaps, anything to put into that ex- tension ?— Certainly ; that is possible. 2269. Sir Philip Egerton.~\ Do you think that it is absolutely essential that the natural history collections should all be on the upper floor ? — Of course not ; the ground floor, with those cross lights, would be more adapted for the natural his- tory collections, where cross lights would not be inconvenient. As to the area of that plan, No. 21, alterations might be made in that plan that would allow of the whole area being 88,120 feet super- ficial. 2270. Mr. Ayrton. ] How much of that would be on one floor ? — 60,760 on the ground floor, and 0.96. 27,360 on the upper floor, and 33,400 out of the S. Smirke, 88,120 would be lighted by skylight. Esq. 2271. Do you see any objection to making a building of three storeys, instead of two or one ? — 3 July i860. The height would be complained of by the public, that is the only objection, mounting too many stairs. 2272. Is there any objection to making rooms so lofty, when there are no galleries in the rooms ? — The rooms that are constantly visited by the public ought not to be low. 2273. Are they not excessively lofty ? — No, not unreasonably so, I think. 2274. Not the ground floor? — No; there is the ground floor for books, and there is a gallery that gives book room from the floor to the ceiling. In the sculpture room there are objects that rise up almost to the ceiling ; some few objects ; and you must have height for them, and many sculp- tural objects require to be placed above the eye. 2275. What height do you consider necessary for each storey ? — The ground floor on the anti- quities side should not be less than it is, about 30 feet. 2276. But for exhibiting other objects of natu- ral history ? — Unless you have a gallery, you do not certainly need so great a height as that. 2277. What height do you consider is neces- sary ? — Twenty feet for a public gallery ; it should not be less. 2278. There would be 40 feet to , the floor of the second storey ?■ — -Yes ; but you must add the thickness of the floor. 2279. Considering that you only reach the steps after you have gone through a very long gallery, do the steps, in your opinion, then become an objection? — I think that many people would object to them, but that is an opinion which I do not feel better able to form than anybody else ; I cannot recollect any foreign gallery which has a third storey, which is frequented by the public, except the Louvre. 2280. Mr. Tite.~\ I suppose there must be a certain amount of architectural fitness and pro- priety in a room 40 feet wide for a public insti- tution ?— Yes ; and 40 feet wide and only 20 feet high would not be a handsome height. 2281. You would naturally seek to divide it? —Yes. 2282. Both for the purpose of construction as well as for the purpose of taste ? — Yes. 2283. Many of the large objects in the great sculpture gallery, which has been referred to, you say reach to the ceiling ? — Yes, almost so. 2284. Would it have been possible, with any propriety, to build a gallery of that kind without something like the height which was given to it by your brother ? — No, not with propriety. 2285. Are you aware that it has been objected that that gallery was unfit for the objects for which it Avas intended, the Egyptian gallery ? — I have heard it. 2286. That it was originally intended by Sir Robert Smirke to hold the Greek and Roman sculptures, but it was found perfectly unfit for the purpose ? — I never heard of that ; I think it was built for the Egyptian ; the Egyptian was by far the largest collection at that time. 2287. It was built for the purpose to which it is now applied ? —Yes, where cross-lights are of no consequence whatever. 2288. I understood you to say, that the ar- rangement, as shown on Plan No. 21, is an arrange- ment by which you obtain a certain specific U superficial 154 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE S. Smvke, superficial area upon such a site, that site being Eeq. limited, and that area which would give a certain • superficial space, would cost so much money ? — 'fi July i860. Yes. 2289. As to its peculiar appropriation, you have not been instructed to consult anyone as to what was required, or the extent of it?- — Not at all. 2290. Are you prepared to express an opinion to this Committee as to what is required in con- nexion with the Museum ; have you had any com- munication, for instance, from the superintendent of the archaeological collection, that he requires 60,000 feet, or any other number of feet? — It is notorious that the antiquities department is most cryingly in want of space ; there is a great mass of sculptures lying now in sheds outside, and that which is in the galleries is much too crowded. 2291. Chairman.'] I presume that the Com- mittee are not to consider this as in any degree a finished plan, or as one entering into any of the details which you consider necessary? — That is certainly the case, and it was so expressed by me in my report ofDecember 3, 1857. 2292. Do not you think that the selection of the northern side of the Museum for the sculp- ture galleries would carry those galleries much further from the present galleries of sculpture than an extension towards the west ? — Yes. 2293. Can you state to the Committee what is the distance between the north-eastern extremity of the proposed gallery in Plan 21, and the south- west extremity, from the Greek and Roman saloon, No. 10, in Plan 17 ? — One thousand feet. 2294. Would it be as easy for the visitor or student to pass in and out for the purposes of comparison between the present galleries and the proposed gallery in Montague-place, as it would be if the new galleries were on the side of Char- lotte-street running alongside the old ones? — Galleries to the west would be nearer to the pre- sent galleries than galleries to the north would be. 2295. Would it be as easy for the sculptures to be moved from one gallery to another when- ever any re-arrangement was required, if those galleries were at long distances as proposed in your plan, or as it would be if the galleries were placed parallel to one another ? — There might be two en- trances ; it would be convenient to have an access for the heavy sculpture at the far end, I should say, supposing the heavy sculpture required to come to that extreme corner. 2296. Might you not have an entrance also to the west in Charlotte-street for the heavy sculp- ture ? — Yes. 2297. That entrance would be closer? — Yes; it would if the additional galleries were built to the west. 2298. Do you think it an advantage that gal- leries of sculptures should, if practicable, be so arranged, as to distinguish the several schools and periods of art ? — I think the more classified they are, the better ; there is no doubt about it. 2299. Do you think it desirable for visitors to be able, if possible, to pass from one school to another in chronological order? — It would be possible if we had space so to arrange the gallery, as to place them in that order. 2300. And it would be desirable ? -I do not see much advantage in minute chronological arrangement; indeed a strict chronological se- quence is perhaps impossible, if styles are kept separate ; for Greek and late ^Egyptian were contemporaneous styles; but that is a scientific point, upon which I have no right to have much opinion. 2301. Would it not be advantageous for the visitor to find a general chronological arrangement, and that chronological arrangement as simple and as obvious as possible ?— Yes ; I think in the ab- sence of any artistic arrangement, a chronological arangement would be the best. 2302. Do you not think that the most obvious arrangement would be, to place the principal schools of sculpture, the Egyptian, the Greek, and the Roman, in parallel galleries succeeding each other chronologically? — Yes; I think that would be satisfactory. 2303. In your Plan, No. 21, what is the total floor space in the upper floor? — In the way in which it might be altered, that is, covering over the whole area instead of partially covering it, you would have on the ground floor 60,760, and on the upper .floor 27,360, making together 88,120, of which 33,400 would be lighted by skylights. 2304. Mr. Tite.~\ Did you go northward with your scheme because you were told to go there, or because you had any preference for the north, as compared with the west? — I was desired to do so. 2305. It may be that the west would be better even in your judgment? — Yes; but I give no opinion about it. 2306. Mr. Ayrton.] Have you never been asked to form an opinion as to the best mode of extending the British Museum, with a view to the better exhibition of the collections contained in it ? — I do not know that any general question has ever been put to me in that way ; I am not sure that such a question has ever been put to me. 2307. Have you not been asked to report on that subject?— -No; I have reported upon the cost of extending it on all the three different sides. 2308. Mr. Tite.] And as to the cost of the property ?— Yes. 2309. Mr. Ayrton.'] Is that to be found in one report, or reports made at different times? — The reports have been made at various times. 2310. Sir Philip Egerton.~\ I find in your re- port the following passage : — " There may be financial reasons against that very great enlarge- ment which has by some been contemplated ; I have thought that the trustees would permit me to suggest a middle course, whereby the require- ments of the two departments which alone need any considerable extension, may, without im- moderate expense, be amply provided for, for a great number of years." That is a true descrip- tion of the plan ? — Yes. 2311. You suggested that as a middle course? — Yes. 2312. Finding that the larger purchase was declined by the Government, you suggested this as a cheaper plan, by which accommodation could be obtained ?— Yes, that was my idea as being cheaper than building on the west. 2313. Mr. Tite.'] It did not follow from any inquiry that you made, that the land to be bought on the north, was dearer or cheaper than the land that might be purchased on the west ?— No ; the rate is about the same ; but the quantity is con- siderably less towards the north ; it would be much less, only 16 houses ; whilst to the west there are more than twice that number. 2314. In that degree, the site would be cheaper northward than westward ?— Yes. 2315. Suppose SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 15.5: 2315. Suppose you could take the plan you have seen this morning, which shows four parallel galleries, each of them a considerable length, and apply that same arrangement on the north, would not the site then cost as much as on the west ? — I think there would not be much difference in the value of the houses between the north and the west ; on the west there are a good many rather small houses, but there are some in Bedford- square considerably larger ; I think, on the average, the houses to the west would cost about the same as those to the north. 2316. Assuming the number to be the same in both cases ? — Yes, area for area. 2317. Can you state to the Committee the cost of the property eastward, northward, or westward, or altogether ? — Northward it would be about 60,000 1. 2318. For what?— For all the land to Montague- place which that Plan 21 before the Chairman contemplates taking. 2319. Does that include the interest of the lessees as well as the freeholders ? — -Yes ; every- thing. 2320. Allowing for the purchase of fixtures and so on ? — Yes ; I think it was a liberal scale upon which it was calculated. 2321. Mr. Knight.'] That is for the 16 houses? — That is the number. 2322. Mr. Tite.~\ Eastward, can you avoid pur- chasing the savings' bank which is a new and rather expensive building? — Not very well; in- cluding that, I think 75,000 1, was the supposed value of all the houses on the east side. 2323. Now westward? — "Westward it would be 106,000 I. 2324. How many houses does that include in Bedford-square ? — I do not remember the num- ber ; but all of one side of Bedford-square and of Charlotte-street. 2325'. Then there must be more than four houses in Bedford-square ? — Yes ; I am referring to Plan No. 4. 2326. Will you tell me the number of houses on the east side that you would purchase for 60,000 I. ? — On the east side, 18 houses. 2327. Mr. Knight.] How much would they cost ?— £. 75,000. 2328. Mr. Tite.~] How many houses north- ward ? — Sixteen houses, 60,000 1. 2329. On the west is there not double the number of houses ? — There are 35 houses. 2330. That is, in point of fact, in Bedford- square from the corner of Montague-street to the corner of Great Russell-street ? — Yes ; includ- ing three or four houses in Great Russell-street. 2331. Can you state to the Committee the length and breadth of each plot? — It is 115,500 feet on the west by about 150 feet. 2332. Chairman.] Including Charlotte-street and Bedford-square? — Yes; the Montague-place side would be about 69,000 superficial feet, and the Montague-street side would be about 57,200 super- ficial feet. 2333. What is the total? — Five acres and a half. 2334. Mr. Knight] Do you know the term of the unexpired portions of the leases ? — That inquiry has been gone into in great detail, but I cannot now tell you ; they vary. 2335. Chairman.] The houses in Charlotte- street are inferior, are they not, to the houses in Montague-place and in Montague-street ? — Yes. 0.96. 2336. There are no shops amongst them? — I s. Smirke, think none. Esq. 2337. Then I presume they would be pur- — — chased cheaper than those houses to the north 2 July i860, and to the east ? — They are good houses to the north and east ; there are a few shops to the south. 2338. Mr. Agrton.] In Great Russell-street ?— Yes. 2339. Chairman.] Can you estimate at all the cost of the houses in Charlottee-street, from No. 4 to 21, embracing 2 and 3, in Bedford-square ? — It is about 66,000/. ; the portion comprised in those houses that you have named to me. 2340. Is not the whole of the north library lighted by side windows ? — Yes. 2341. Would not the light in that library be obscured by other buildings being erected near it ? — If near it, it would be ; the distance according to that Plan 21 is 50 feet, the width of a wide street off it. 2342. You consider that that space being given, the light would not be interfered within the printed book department? — Not in the least. 2343. Supposing you had not been fettered by any consideration of economy, would you think it in itself preferable to make new buildings for the antiquities entirely distinct from the new buildings for the natural history ? — Yes ; I think so. 2344. On the same supposition, I suppose you would prefer that the larger galleries for the ex- hibition of the sculptures should be lighted by skylights ? — Nearly all ; by far the greater part of the antiquities would be better lighted by sky- lights than by side lights ; not perhaps all. 2345. Supposing it could be shown that these economical difficulties do not exist, and that by erecting galleries to the west, you might transfer to the natural history department that portion of the upper floor which is now occupied by the antiquities, would you disapprove of that arrange- ment ? — No ; the idea of converting the upper sculpture galleries into natural history galleries is new to me ; I see it upon that plan for the first time ; but upon the face of it, I do not see any material objection to it. 2346. It would enable you to build more con- venient galleries I presume for the antiquities than is suggested in Plan No. 21 ? — Yes. 3347. And also supply a very appropriate space for the natural history collections ? — Yes. 2348. Even if the space thus provided for the natural history collections were insufficient, a gallery might be built as was proposed by Pro- fessor Maskelyne over the gardens of the houses No. 4 and 5 in Montague-place ? — Yes, such would be possible. 2349. Or on Montague-place, presuming that you moved a little more to the west ? — Yes. 2350. Or even over No. 9, 10, and 11 in Mon- tague-street? — It would be practicable, but I cannot think that it would be well to obtrude a portion of a public building in among private dwelling houses. 2351. Mr. Ayrton.] In an architectural point of view, do you think it would be desirable to commence a plan, which would enable you to build a gallery all round the existing museum ? — I should think that any commencement now made should be upon such a general plan as you name. 2352. You see no objection to that as an archi- tect? — On the contrary; I have reported that I considered that, upon the whole, the most desirable mode of extending the Museum. u 2 2353. You 156 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ' 2392. Above a great portion of the cases in those rooms at present, you might erect a gallery, might you not ? — Yes, a wall gallery. 2393. Such as was proposed in the ornitho- logical room ? — Yes. 2394. And that would give a considerable amount of space for the natural history collec- tions? — Yes, it would, if galleries were placed -round the upper part of rooms Nos. 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, and 15 ; that is, the whole of that west wing ; the total number of feet run of wall cases in '- 0.96, galleries, deducting the doors, would be 1,480 g Smirke feet run, without reference to the height. *Esq. ' 2395. Do you recollect the number of feet in the ornithological gallery ; would it not be pretty g j u l v i860, much the same? — The two sides are exactly alike. 2396. I presume that, under these circum- stances, if these galleries were taken for the natural history collections, the three medal rooms might be made available for the purposes of studies? — Yes; they might be studies sub-divided; they are perhaps now too large for that purpose. 2397. I mean studies for the public? — Yes. 2398. Sir Philip JEgerton.~\ Further wall space could also be obtained in the mineralogical gal- leries, by lighting those rooms with skylights which are now lighted by side-lights ? — Yes ; as has been done in one room, so it might be done in all six. 2399. Mr. Ayrton.\ Have you applied your mind to the question of putting galleries in the rooms lighted by skylight for the purpose of ex- hibition, and to the breadth that the galleries should be ? — Yes ; we have done that to a certain extent at the British Museum ; but the public are not admitted to the galleries in the British Museum. 2400. Of what breadth should a gallery be made in a room 40 feet broad, lighted by sky- light, and of what proportion in height so as to show objects placed against the wall underneath the gallery ? — It would be inconvenient to make those galleries more than three or four feet wide. 2401. Supposing the whole roof to be skylight, or the sides of the roof, springing from the wall, to be skylight, what width could you make the galleries to show the objects under the galleries? — Four feet, or even six feet. 2402. That would enable persons going there to view the objects, and to pass about the floor without obstruction ? — Yes. 2403. Chairman.'] Would it be possible to alter the lighting in those galleries so as to afford the same kind of light that they have in the Col- lege of Surgeons ? — You could not get the same light without entirely altering the roof; you might get horizontal light on either side; the whole ceiling indeed might be glazed, instead of being plaster. 2404. Would it be possible to alter the lighting of the present mammalian gallery, so as to make it more satisfactory? — You might increase the light very easily there. 2405. The great objection to the mammalian gallery is the insufficient manner in which it is lighted ? — Yes. I think 40 years ago we did not appreciate light so highly as we do now. I think we should make more openings for the light now, than we did then. 2406. Mr. Lowe.'] I understand that for 240,000 1, you could purchase the land that would extend the British Museum to the four streets which sur- round it ? — Yes. 2407. How many acres would that compre- hend ? — Five acres and a half. 2408. Is it your opinion that that would be sufficient for the wants of the Museum ? — I can- not judge of the wants of the Museum ; the trustees cannot judge, and a fortiori I cannot. 2409. You have no opinion upon that ? — I have this opinion, that we could reasonably calculate upon not wanting space for half a century. 2410. Do you think it would provide you with space for half a century ? — Yes. u 3 2411. Are 153 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE I do not much like dividing the col- S. Smirhe, 2411. Are you aware that Professor Owen has Esq- asked for five acres and a half, and that Mr. Old- field has furnished us with a plan for one acre ? — a July 18C0. j tnm k tnat p ro fessor Owen asked for 10 acres. 2412. Mr. Ayrton.~\ "Would the building of galleries between the existing British Museum, and the front in Charlotte-street, be very econo- mical ? — Yes, there is nothing to make them ex- pensive ; there would be but one front. 2413. Mr. Lowe.'] What would the land that you would purchase here cost per acre, 40,000 I. ? — £. 40,000 1, or 50,000/. 2414. Can you give the Committee any infor- mation as to whether land, available for the pur- poses of the Museum, in other parts of London, could be purchased at a reasonable price ? — There is fitness for its purpose to be considered as well. 2415. I will assume that it is considered neces- sary to divide the collections in the British Museum ? lections. 2416. What should you say to land in Victoria- street ; is there any land there available for such a purpose ? — Yes ; but I believe it is a very high price. 2417. What is the price ? — I do not know. 2418. You mean the land that is not built upon ? — Yes. 2419. Mr. Knight.] Would the old Peniten- tiary make a good site ? — It is an out of the way place. 2420. Mr. Lowe.] Do you mean the Millbank Penitentiary ? — Yes. 2421. That would be out of the way ? — Yes. 2422. Would it not be more cheaply accessible to the working classes than the British Museum, as being on the river bank ? — Yes, but I think the situation of the British Museum is very central and good. 2423. If a man is at London Bridge, what does it cost him to go the British Museum ; 3 d. by an omnibus ? — Yes ; he can go from London Bridge for 3 d. or 4 d. 2424. He could go to Vauxhall Bridge,for 1 d . 1 — Yes, by water. 2425. Do you know anything of the land at Brompton ?— Yes. 2426. What is your opinion as to the price at which land could be purchased at Brompton ? — The land that builders hold would cost you a great deal of money, but there has been land offered at a very moderate price. 2427. At how much ? — It is in my report. 2428. Is it 5,000 /.an acre ?— Yes, I think so. 2429. Are you of opinion that land could be obtained there for 5,000 I. an acre ? — For 5,000 /. or 6,000 /. 2430. Is there any other place that you can suggest where there is vacant land to be pur- chased ? — No ; there may be, but I do not know of any in suitable situations. 2431. Is there any to the north of the British Museum ? — It is occupied with building for a con- siderable distance to the north. 2432. Is 45,000 /. the ordinary price for an acre of land covered with houses in London ? — No ; it is a moderate price. 2433. There would be more that would be dearer rather than cheaper ? — Yes ; in any very good situation it would be considerably more. 2434. Is there any part of London that you know of where it would be less ? — Not in any eligible place. 2435. Do you think that the British Museum is a building adapted for extension ; does it possess good architectural conditions for extension ? — We have shown how it could be extended conveni- ently on its three sides. 2436. Then you think it does possess the con- ditions which are necessary for successful archi- tectural extension, not merely as a matter of necessity, but a thing you would recommend, as suitable ? — Yes, I think so. 2437. 'Chairman.] What authority have you for saying that you could purchase the land at Brompton for 5,000 /. an acre ? — I should speak under correction ; I have reported the probable price of it at 5,000/. per acre. 2438. Upon what do you estimat'e that probable price ? — From communications made to me. 2439. By whom ? — By those whom I thought I could depend upon. 2440. Were those the Commissioners? — Not the Commissioners personally. 2441. You had no authority from the Commis- sioners for saying that they would sell that land for 5,000/. or 6,000 /. an acre ?— No. 2442. In fact you had no authority at all? — No official authority; I have not communicated with the Commissioners about it. 2443. Mr. Hardy.] Assuming that one of the collections in the British Museum, or any part of the collections to be moved, and a new building to be erected, would it cost more to erect an en- tirely new building of that kind, and getting the same space, than it would to make additions to the British Museum ? — I think that, build on which side you will, you must have a front round the Museum, and that involves an expense. If you build elsewhere there must be some expendi- ture in architectural appearance, so that I think there would not be so much difference in that respect between this site and any other. 2444. Mr. Tite.] But if you had some land at Brompton or elsewhere to erect a building on, you would then want that external architectural decoration which, if you increased the site of the British Museum, you would not want, for there you have in front a portico, and porticos to the wings, all of which give a character of elegance and propriety to it as a public building. Any- thing that you have to build abutting on Char- lotte-street would not be so ornate, and would not demand the same kind of decoration ? — No. 2445. So far as regards any additions to the present building, there need not be any great cost in the way of decoration as that has been ex- pended upon the porticos, and decoration of the British Museum fronting the other way ? — No ; not that kind of expenditure ; it would be impro- vident and unwise to extend it to the back front, and it would be unnecessary. 2446. Whereas if you were to erect a new building upon a large open, clear site, you must have, in a certain sense, some of the pomp of architecture to give it the character of a national edifice ? — Yes ; I think it would be very improper that a great public building should not have a certain architectural character. 2447. To that extent the building would be more costly than would be necessary on the pre- sent site ?— I do not think that that is a differ- ence that need enter into the calculation ; I think that there would be a little ornamental expense incurred here {pointing to a plan), and there must be necessarily some ornamental expense incurred in the other. 2448. Must there not be more in an open area of SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 159 of that character; must you not repeat the por- tico for instance ? — I should be sorry to make it a barn-like place. In the case you mention at Brompton there would be two fronts. 2449. If there were anything in the nature of architectural decoration which would be avoided in the one case, and necessary in the other, it would increase the expense of the building, so far as it went ? — Yes. 2450. And there would be the cost of removing the collection; do you imagine that that would be considerable ? — Moving the antiquities would be so expensive as to be, I submit, out of the question; the cost of removing the natural history collection would be also a very serious item no doubt. 245 1 . It would have to be superadded. Then with regard to the value of land, I apprehend that if you had to buy building land of the builders who have made a speculation of that land, you would not say it could be purchased for 6,000 1. an acre ? — No. 2452. It would probably approximate to the cost of the land in Brompton ? —Yes ; perhaps more. 2453. £6,000 an acre you would suggest as a possible price to be paid by the nation to some- body who is quite willing to treat it as a national question ? — Yes ; but I have mentioned 5,000 1. as the probable price. 2454. If land had to be purchased, say in Cromwell-road, there would not be much to choose between the price of the land there and in the other case ? — I think not. 2455. On the contrary, the land would probably be worth more ? — Yes ; I believe they talk of three or four guineas a foot ; I think it would be a high price per acre. 2456. Mr. Ayrton. J If you took a block of land there, the price you have spoken of does not represent the block with four sides clear, but would probably represent a block with only one side clear, the other three sides abutting upon other land ? — Yes. 2457. Then you would have to leave a vacant space round the other three sides, of 50 or 60 feet broad, to make the land equivalent to the available land at the British Museum ? — No ; I think that the land that has been talked of at Brompton could be built upon to the extent of two-thirds of its whole area. 2458. Then you would have to add one-third to the price for the land that you would be compelled to leave vacant, as compared with the land at the British Museum, which has roads on four sides of it, and therefore enables you to build up to the boundary ?— I do not think that that is exactly the case ; in either case I think that you could build up to the public way, and the back would abut in one case upon the buildings of the Museum, and at Kensington it would abut upon other buildings belonging to the Commissioners. 2459. Then, in order to keep a clear front all round, your buildings for the purposes of light you would have to build within 50 feet froni your boundary, to insure that available space ? — No ; I think you can build upon the land at Brompton partially up to the very limits of your land on both sides. 2460. Is there not available land at Burlington House for the purpose of erecting galleries? — Yes ; there is a large area, which is in the hands of the Government. 0.96. 2461. And very extensive galleries might be S. Smirhe, built there if necessary ? — Yes. Esq. 2462. If there were two parallel galleries run- ~— ning from Piccadilly to the other end, they would 2 "' u 'y l86 °' admit of course of a large exhibition? — Yes ; but it is nothing like the area you have to deal with here. 2463. In Victoria-street, Holborn, is there not a great space of vacant ground ? — Yes ; I believe there is ground which has been vacant for a long time. 2464. Many acres? — Yes; probably they ex- pect too much money for it. 2465. Do you know the upset price of it? — No. 2466. The land which you would obtain at the British Museum could remain covered with houses until the buildings were extended ?■ — Yes. 2467. And the Government would be in re- ceipt of the rents of those houses until they were required to be pulled down ? — Yes. 2468. Have you any idea what interest would be returned for the purchase if the houses remained standing? — I am not prepared to say that; but the rack rental would be very considerable. 2469. Do you know what is the cost of the fee- simple of the houses in that neighbourhood, or for how many years purchase they are sold? — Yes; I think I reckoned on 30 years' purchase. 2470. Is that your estimate for the fee-simple of those houses ? — Yes. 2471. Including the rack-rent of the houses? — Yes. 2472. Is that the estimate for the cost of the enforced removal of a tenant? — I think that 30 years' purchase may be considered a full price, including all charges upon it. 2473. That is supposing you compel the imme- diate removal of the tenant ?— Yes, giving a year's notice. 2474. Supposing you purchased those houses, and kept them until the tenant quitted ? — Then you would be receiving the rack-rent. 2475. What would be the number of years' purchase at which you would expect to purchase a freehold house in that neighbourhood, or what would be the price of a freehold house in that neighbourhood, supposing you had not to make an estimate for removing the tenant ? — The re- moval of the tenant is not a very large item ; you might take 25 years ; I think the greater part of the property that has been hitherto purchased by the trustees has cost 25 years' purchase. 2476. Do you see any objection to lighting the rooms by gas in the British Museum, so that it might be opened in the evening ? — Gas blackens and acts chemically on many things, and in the course of time I should expect it would have its effect upon the contents of the Museum. 2477. Is there any difficulty in so lighting with gas that all the products of combustion are carried off into the open air? — There are processes by which you may hermetically seal gas, and in that case you do away with a great part of the objec- tion to it. 2478. Do you see any difficulty in applying those processes in the British Museum ? — No ; that mode of connecting the flame with a flue, and not with the air of a room, is a course applicable in one case as in another. 2479. Is there any difficulty in keeping gas pipes on the outside of a building, so that there would be no risk of danger from explosion ? — There is necessarily increased risk when you bring gas pipes into a house. xj4 2480. Do i6o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE S. Smirke, Esq. 2 July i860. 2480. Do you see any difficulty in keeping the gas pipes outside of the building ?— You may keep the greater part of them, but you cannot wholly keep them out. 2481. Have you ever seen a room lighted with gas from the outside, and in the winter substi- tuting gas light for day light ? — No, I have not seen that done. 2482. Have you seen rooms lighted from the roof, keeping the gas outside a roof of glass, and not letting the gas come within the rooms or the pipes ? — Yes ; gas pipes might run externally up the side of a house, and over its roof, and down to the ceiling of the upper room, without much interference, but not as to the lower rooms. 2483. Sir Philip Egerton.] There would be some difficulty, would there not, and considerable expense, in adopting galleries, originally not so constructed, to a system of lighting with gas ? — It would be a very heavy expense certainly. 2484. But in constructing any new galleries, you might construct them so as to be available for it? — Yes, you might provide brick flues for the reception of the pipes ; you might certainly make arrangements so as to obviate any incon- venience. 2485. That would materially enhance the cost, would it not ? — Not in a new building. 2486. Mr. Ayrton.~\ Referring to the large galleries of sculpture on the ground floor, lighted from the roof, do you see any difficulty in those being lighted by gas, and would there be any danger in doing so? — New ones you might so light. 2487. But the old ones, that are now lighted by skylight ?— The Greek galleries , mighty be lighted by gas without letting any pipes into them, as they are one storey high only. 2488. Suppose the Gallery of Natural History were a continuous gallery in the upper floor, would there be any difficulty in lighting it at night from the roof without any risk of danger, or any possible injury to the objects exhibited ? — I think that is possible ; but it must be remem- bered that gaslight is a very different thing from daylight, and that it casts, in proportion to its intensity, a shadow of intense darkness ; a gas- light in the ceiling of those rooms, with a broad gallery on either side of them, would render the lower cases perfectly dark ; there is a diffused light in the daytime which gas does not give. 2489. As far as you have had an opportunity of observing the plan that has been presented by Mr. Oldfield, do you see any objection, or do you think it might be carried out with some modifica- tions ? — I think that idea might be worked out very well. Jovis, 5° die Jalii, 1860. MEMBEES PRESENT : Mr. Ayrton. Sir Philip Egerton. Mr. Gregory. Sir George Grey. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Puller. Lord Stanley. Mr. Tite. Mr. Turner. Me. W. H. GREGORY, in the Chair. Professor Richard Owen, called in ; and further Examined. Professor 2490. Chairman.] I believe you wish to give R. Oven. some explanation to the Committee ? — Yes ; in my examination on the 12th of June I assigned 5 July i860. tJj e grounds on which I had estimated the space for 30 years' additions on the system of public exhibition adopted at the British Museum, to be allotted to the class of mammalia (Q. 564) ; to birds (Q. 523); to reptilia (Q. 620); to fishes (Q. 624) ; to geology (Q. 624). In my reply to Q. 620, I said, " I should be glad if I were per- mitted to give the data on which I have been led to calculate the spaces of the several galleries apportioned in my plan for the different classes." The answers to Qs. 620 to 624, extended to such a length that I was desired to leave the documents and data relative to the other classes with the shorthand-writer, and I left my papers accord- ingly ; I now wish to give those data that were omitted to be printed, relative to the classes of insects, Crustacea, and other articulata, to echino- derms, corals, and other radiata. Of the class of insects, 150,000 species are known. "We are now unable to do more than exhibit a mere fraction of the class ; the thousands of specimens we possess are stored in drawers and boxes, occu- pying rooms of the total space of 52 feet long by 32 feet. In 1857 I reported, concurrently with Dr. Gray, to the Trustees, that for such storage our additions required at least three times the present space. In my plan of 1859 I assigned to the gallery of articulata, 250 feet by 50 feet ; but this accom- modates, besides the insects, all the Crustacea, the arachnida, the annelides, and other vermes ; so that the principle of selection must still guide the keeper in availing himself of such, amount of space for exhibition. But he would, then, be able to afford to general visitors an ade- quate ^ idea of the characters and affinities of the chief groups of articulata in one and the same gallery ; whereas we now do not exhibit any of the SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 161 the classes preserved in spirits, and the scanty- proportion of displayed Crustacea and insects are dispersed about galleries which are chiefly and ought to be exclusively appropriated to higher classes. In assigning a gallery also of 250 feet in length by 50 feet, to the radiata and zoophytes, I have had regard to the difference of size of most of the species as compared with insects. Some medusae are more than 2 feet across ; we have a specimen of brain-stone coral above a yard in diameter, and nearly a yard height; many fan corals grow to twice that height, with propor- tionate breadth ; and in the British Museum we endeavour to show the finest specimens, and such are expected to be there seen. Moreover, if such a gallery for the zoophytes should be acquired, I should take the requisite steps to obtain and ex- hibit to the people of the greatest maritime country illustrations of the growth and structure of coral reefs, by means of adequate masses, ex- emplifying the law and order of superposition of the different kinds of coral-building zoophytes which go to form the coral islands. We can show nothing of the sort in the space now assigned to us, nor could we do so with the additional wall- galleries lately proposed. In regard to the want of space for the adequate display of the class of fishes, in Q. and A. 624 I stated that we had no exhibition of British sharks. The specimens we possess are affixed, for want of exhibition space, above the cases in the obscure angle between the wall and roof; their distinctive characters can neither be seen nor pointed out. My esti- mate for the extent of the future gallery of fishes provides for the proper exhibition of a complete collection of those sharks ; I instanced the present state of incompleteness of the col- lection by the absence of the most remark- able of the British species ; the selache maxima of Cuvier. The non-existence of the exhibition alluded to was not instanced as any reflection on the keeper of zoology, but in justification of my estimate of space. The defect exists, and our possession of an- incomplete and unexhibited col- lection neither affects my statement, nor the prin- ciple I wished to illustrate by it. So with regard to the series of the varieties of pigerms. Mr. Darwin's work suggests the prospective necessity of exhibiting varieties as well as species — s@- called incipient, as well as established species — in certain cases. My estimate for future space has regard, as it ought to have, to this want. My attention had been specially called to it by a visitor, who, with Mr. Darwin's book in hand, referring to p. 21, asked to be shown the varieties there men- tioned. I opened the cases of pigeons, and the first ten varieties and sub-varieties were not there. He inquired for the skeletons mentioned in the work (p. 22) ; not one was exhibited. That de- ficiency still exists, in regard to both skins and skeletons, and my answer, No. 682, refers to it. On Tuesday, June 26th, I inspected the case of the pigeons, in company with the Principal Librarian and Mr. George Gray. Referring to Mr. Darwin's work, p. 21, 1 asked for the carrier ; it was not there : for the tumbler ; it was not there ; for the runt ; it was not there ; for the five sub-breeds of runts, some " of which have very long necks, others very long wings and tails, others singularly short tails ; "' we have not got them : for the barb ; it was not there : for the pouter ; it was not there. The jacobin was in the case ; the trumpeter and the fantail were in the Museum, but not in the exhibited series of 0.96.. pigeons. In regard to the skeletons required for the demonstration of Mr. Darwin's propo- sition, I sent for the articulator in charge of the osteological collection in the basement storey : he stated that, since my directions on this sub- ject, given after the visitor's inquiry above alluded to, he had obtained the skeletons of three of the varieties named by Mr. Darwin, the tumbler, the pouter, and the jacobin ; but our possession of some of those varieties does not affect the principle of exhibition for which my plan of 1859 makes provision. We have not now the space for showing the public the series of specimens which form the foundation of the theory of the "origin of species by natural selection." We do not possess the specimens Dr. Gray states Mr. Darwin has promised to supply us ; and which he would probably ere this have sent, had we pos- sessed the means of exhibiting them. 2491. Have you any other remark which you wish to make to the Committee ? — Merely to refer to these instructions which I have drawn up agree- ably with the orders of the Government, and which are distributed to and printed for the use of the officers of the navy and of the army {handing in the same). These instructions, with additions and modifications, are supplied, when any special ex- pedition, like that of Dr. Livingstone's or Captain Palliser's, leaves this country ; and one of the con- sequences of our present want of space is, that the specimens which we receive in consequence of these instructions, as, for example, those that we received from Dr. Livingstone lately, and from Captain Palliser, are obliged to be stored in the basement crypts. 2492. Mr. Tite.] Are you at all aware of a plan that has been suggested for giving up to you the galleries, which are now appropriated to an- tiquities, on the floor which you occupy ? — No, I am not. 2493. You are 'not competent to give any opinion as to the extent of accommodation that would give you? — I have heard that it is pro- posed to give up the western gallery, on the idea that it would serve to arrange our mammalian and osteology. 2494. Will you just look at this plan (the same being handed to the Witness) ? — 1 see that that gallery is co-extensive with our gallery of birds. 2495. Chairman.] And also the ethnographical room ? — Yes. 2496. Mr. Tite.] And the medal room?— Yes. 2497. I think you stated before that there was no exhibition of the class mammalia; did you mean that there was no proper exhibition, or that there was only a small proportion of that class exhibited? — Referring to those specimens that stand in the present crowded cases, that is not an exhibition of the class ; it is a temporary storage of that part of the collection. 2498. Would the green galleries upon that map enable you to amend that defect ? — Yes ; they would enable us to exhibit the stuffed speci- mens that we now possess ; but the specimens that are too large to go into the side cases would occupy as much of the centre space as could be so occu- pied, having reference to the necessity for passage- room for visitors, especially on crowded days ; so that we should have no space there whatever for a collection of osteology, nor any space for future - accessions to the class mammalia on the principle upon which we have hitherto exhibited them. X 2499. In Professor R. Oven. ; July i860. l62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Professor 2499. In your former evidence you spoke of R. Owen. five acres; do you mean to say that you require five acres of space at the present moment, or I 5 July i860. b e ii eve you said 10? -That was estimated en- tirely with reference to the acquisition of space for future additions, so that gallery might be added after gallery, as needed, in conformity with a pre- determined plan ; my report does not state or con- Tey any idea of the necessity of the plan being- carried out at once. 2500. If you were to carry out your plan to that great extent, would it not involve an enor- mously increased staff and expense? — Not so much "as might be expected, on this account ; that not having sufficient space, and the specimens being, many of them, placed in two or three rows, whenever they are taken out of the cases to be cleaned or examined, there is a great increase of time and labour, and in almost every report as to additions that are attempted to be exhibited, the keepers have to state that the previously exhibited specimens have had to be re-arranged, in order to make room for the additions ; so that the want of space adds greatly to the time labour, and attendance ; the possession of sufficient space is a great element of economy in facilitating and accelerating the work of a department- 2501. Will no increase of staff be required, or will the increase not be in proportion to the increased extent ? — Not in proportion. 2502. Chairman.'] Do you think that the manner in which the specimens of mammalia and ornithology are at present set up and stuffed for exhibition is satisfactory ? — Some are by no means so perfect as they ought to be, and as they would be if we had a fresh specimen to commence our operations upon. 2503. You would replace, I presume, the bad specimens by any fresh accessions to the British Museum, and have them better set up?— Yes, certainly ; in all cases where we could get better and more naturally prepared specimens. 2504. Sir Philip Egerton.~] The artist that you employ to stuff and set up the skins is a first-rate artist, is he not?— Yes; the best that we can obtain in London. Austin Henry Latakd, Esq., called in ; and Examined. A. H. 2505. Chairman?^ I believe you have devoted Layard, Esq. considerable attention to the condition of the British Museum? — I have. 2506. 1 think you have also written upon the subject? — I have written an article anonymously on the subject. 2507. You have also contributed largely to the collections in the British Museum ? — I have. 2508. You have, I believe, expressed an opinion, that it would be advisable to separate the works of nature from the works of art ?■ — Yes ; I enter- tain a very strong opinion upon that point. 2509. I believe your idea is that the British Museum should be devoted to art collections exclusively ? — Upon that subject I cannot express a very strong opinion. As regards the division of the collections I have a strong opinion ; that is to say, as regards the question of administration ; I think the two collections should be perfectly dis- tinct under a perfectly distinct direction, and hav- ing no connexion the one with the other. With regard to the locality, not being a scientific man, and having unfortunately no time to devote to those subjects, and not being under the necessity of consulting objects of science, I cannot say, as a matter of personal convenience, whether the British Museum is, or is not, the best site. As a general opinion, I should say it was advisable that all the science should be collected together, and it appears to me that the system which is pursued in France is the right one ; that is to say, that connected with the specimens of science there should be a botan- ical garden, as in the Jardin des Plantes ; and the place the best suited for that purpose would, per- haps, be in the neighbourhood of London ; but that is merely an opinion. 2510. You are aware of the popularity of the natural history collections in the British Museum with the lower classes ? — Yes. 2511. Consequently I presume you think that there are advantages in the central position which the British Museum now occupies, having refer- ence to those collections ? — Of course that depends a good deal upon what you call a central position, and whether Kensington would not be as acces- sible to the great body of the public as the British Museum. 2612. The main objection which you have to the present condition of the British Museum is, I believe, to the mode of administration? — Cer- tainly. 2513. Therefore you would not consider it in- compatible to retain works of nature and of art in the same locality, if there was what you would consider a better system of administration ? — No; if the plan which I have proposed, and to which I adhere still, were carried out. I think public opinion is gradually being formed upon that sub- ject ; I do not think it is yet sufficiently formed, but I think that the time will come when the public in this country will be convinced that the whole of the art should be collected together, whether subjects of sculpture, or antiquities, or paintings ; in fact, all that relates to art, forming a great chapter in the history of the development of human civilization. 2514. The reference to this Committee is to find increased space for the extension and arrange- ment, of the various collections in the British Museum, and to inquire into the best means of rendering them available for the promotion of science and art ; how far do you think the admi- nistration of the Museum has the effect of render- ing those collections unavailable for the promotion of science and art ? — That is rather a difficult question to answer without going into the system 'of administration ; it appears to me that in arrang- ing a great art collection, you require one mind ; one person who embraces in his knowledge the various departments of art, and also can direct the general arrangement of the different collections with re- ference one to another. For instance, I look upon the British Museum as a collection for the purpose of instructing the public, and I do not think that the present arrangement is such as to instruct the public ; I think that in many respects they are mis- led. I will take, for example, the Lycian room ; you have there in one apartment objects of sculp- ture of very different periods ; perhaps even of different races; now, I should wish to see the whole of the sculptures arranged chronologically, so as to show to the public what great changes have taken place in the history of the human mind and of civilization. At present, as you are no doubt SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 163 doubt aware, you enter through a room devoted to Roman antiquities, in which Roman antiqui- ties, properly so called, are classed with remains of the Anglo-Roman period ; then you come into a room which contains the Greco-Roman sculp- tures ; that room branches off into one devoted to purely Greek art, and then you are introduced through the Assyrian sculpture into the Egyptian room. There is here great confusion of ideas; whereas, if the collection were properly arranged, it would commence with the earliest periods of art, say of Egypt, then pass into the Assyrian, and then by a natural transition through the early Ionic remains of Asia Minor, you would be led to the Greek, and from the Greek to the Roman, and so on. 2515. But that is rather a question, I think, as to the deficiency of the structure than as to the deficiency of the administration ? — It is, to a cer- tain extent. But I presume that, supposing there had been one head of the Art department in this country, you would have had a person who would have been capable of directing the arrangement of those specimens of art with reference to the structure actually existing, or with reference to anything that might be added to it. Additions have been made during the last few years, and very considerable additions. 2516. Would you propose to trisect the Mu- seum, and place it under three distinct adminis- trations? — Yes, certainly; I think there should be a head for the Science department, a head for the Art department, and a head for the department of Literature. 2517. Do you not attach some value to having a Board to sit, as it were, between the Govern- ment and the taxpayers, whose names should be a guarantee for the proper expenditure of public grants ? — Yes ; I see no objection to that, if it is merely a Board of Control; but having no au- thority in the actual administration. 2518. You would not wish them to enter into the details of the arrangement ? — Certainly not. 2519. How far do you think that are-arrange- ment of the sub-committees of the British Museum might obviate the defects to which you have alluded; that is, assuming that the business should originate in the sub-committees and be referred to the standing committee, instead of being referred from the standing committee to the sub-committees? — That is a point of detail that I can scarcely well judge of; but of this I am convinced, from my experience in. the exami- nation of the great collections of Europe, that all truly great collections, formed upon a system cal- culated to impart knowledge to mankind, have been formed by one leading man, who has had one leading idea, and has carried that out. 2520. Can you refer to any examples in this country ? — I might certainly instance the Ken- sington Museum, with all the faults that may be found with it. I think that that Museum shows what one man, with great energy, rather fearless of responsibility, with one leading idea in his head, can effect in a short space of time. I think that that is a remarkable example. I could add the National Gallery, where a great deal has been confided to Sir Charles Eastlake; and I think that the progress that has been made there during the last few years under his direction is an in- stance of what may be done when you have one person only at the head to direct an institution ; not that more might not have been done if there had not been a system of trustees, which I think 0.96. interferes with the good management of such an £ m y institution. Layard, Esq. 2521. Are you of opinion that the heads of departments should be present when the business 5 July i860. of their departments is being transacted before the Board of Trustees ? — I should say, yes. 2522. You think that oral communication is advisable ? — Undoubtedly. 2523. Do you agree with Mr. Panizzi, who says, " Not only do I think it right, a priori, for heads of departments to be present, but practically it makes the trustees arrive at right decisions " ? — I think that no man is so capable of giving in- formation in reference to his own department as the head of it, and the opportunity that the trustees would then have of conferring- with him and hear- ing his opinions, and going into the subject with him, would lead them to a proper decision. 2524. Mr. Panizzi subsequently adds, " That difficulties were removed, misapprehensions cleared away, which these reports might either have created or left on the minds of the trustees ; " do you agree with those expressions ? — Certainly. 2525. Upon what principle do you think that the collections of antiquities should be arranged to conduce most to the interests of science and art? — Undoubtedly chronologically. In forming a collection of art, there are one of two things to be kept in view : if you wish for objects of art as objects to be -studied only on account of their in- dividual beauty, your collection must be limited to a few specimens, probably of not more than two or three epochs, the best Greek epoch, the best Roman epoch, and the best Italian epoch. But I do not think that that is the principle upon which a great national museum should be formed ; it should be formed, in my opinion, with refer- ence to the history of civilization, and should include every object of art of sufficient impor- tance which has been left to us from preceding generations, bringing it down even to the present day. An object of art of no interest or beauty is of very little value per se ; but it may be of the greatest importance, as a link without which a collection would be incomplete ; unless such a col- lection is arranged chronologically, it loses its real value. I believe I am acquainted with most of the collections in Europe, and although the British Museum may be deficient in certain re- spects, yet, as a whole, I believe there is no collection in the world to be compared with it. And all that we require is a proper chronological arrangement. 2526. You do not think that the collections should be arranged in the British Museum upon the same principle as they might be arranged in a palace or a private house ? — Certainly not. 2527. Then I presume you do not consider that the objects in the British Museum should be dis- tributed primarily as* ornaments to the galleries, but rather that the galleries should be constructed for the proper exhibition of the objects contained within them ? — I think in the British Museum we have erected a building without reference to its purpose, and that it is the very worst that could have been contrived for the exhibition of objects of art. 2528. You are of opinion that the structure of several of the apartments, as regards their dimen- sions, proportions, and lighting, should be varied according to the objects they are to contain? — Unquestionably. 2529. With reference to the chronological ar- X 2 rangement, 164 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. II. rangement, I presume you think it of considerable Lai/ard, Esq. importance that the art student should be able to have easy means of tracing the origin of art, the pro- 5 Jul)' 1 8G0. gress of art, and the decay of art ? — Undoubtedly ; that is, to my mind, one of the primary objects of a national museum. 2530. Do you think that parallel galleries would effect the object better than any other arrange- ment ? — No, not than any other arrangement. It has always appeared to me, that the best form of building for an art collection, such as I have described, would be a series of great halls, like the vertebras in the backbone of an animal ; from each of which branched, on either side, like the ribs, a number of small rooms or galleries ; the great central halls would contain the great monu- ments, one of Egypt, another of Assyria, ethers of Greece and Rome, and the ribs leading off from these, the smaller objects of art appertaining to each of those great divisions. I think that that is a better principle than long lateral galleries. If the architectural state of the building is such that such a plan could not be carried out, I think the next best thing is lateral galleries. 2531. Have you examined the ground in the neighbourhood of the British Museum? — I am acquainted with it. 2532. Would it not be rather difficult to ob- tain sufficient space to carry out the plan you have suggested in its entirety? — It would be difficult ; it would be a matter of expense. Of course it would require considerable expense so to alter the present building as to make it avail- able for that purpose. 2533. In the case of fresh accessions coming in, there would be a difficulty, would there not, in expanding those galleries which you have alluded to, which might not apply to parallel galleries which might be projected as required? — I think my plan would admit of more expansion, for you could always add to the ribs ; the rooms containing the smaller objects would not be so high as those containing the larger objects, and you might add a storey, or build out. 2534. Would not the adding of a storey inter- fere with the light of the principal galleries? — No ; on the whole, the best light that there is is skylight. 2535. If you added a storey to those exten- sions which you have contemplated, would not that interfere with the light of the room upon the first floor of that storey ? — I think not ; the small rooms would be lighted from the side, and the central galleries, nearly double the height of the small ones, would be lighted from above. The present Egyptian gallery is more than double the height of the side galleries, I presume. 2536. Supposing the extension that you have suggested was made to the west, would not the erection of two-storied buildings rather interfere with the light of the Egyptian gallery, for in- stance ? — Yes, as it is now constructed. 2537. Then that would have to be altered? — Yes. 2538. Do you not think that a correct scientific arrangement of such a collection as that of the British Museum requires great technical know- ledge, and very laborious study to determine, not merely the scientific specifications of each object, but the relation of each class to the rest ? — No doubt it does. 2539. Do not you think that the officers who have had charge of particular collections are the persons who ought, from their position, to have that special knowledge I have alluded to from having studied those collections ? — Unquestion- ably. 2540. Is it your opinion that in any plans for a new structural arrangement, the officers of the departments ought always to be consulted? — I should consult the head of each department. If there was one person at the head of the whole Art department, he would naturally consult the head of each particular department before he took any steps to provide for the collection in its charge. 2541. In the arrangement of the Assyrian col- lections that you brought over to this country, were you consulted as to the mode in which they should be exhibited ? — No, I was not consulted as to the arrangement ; and if I had been consulted, no plan that I could have recommended would have enabled the collection to have been arranged, as I think it ought to have been arranged, chro- nologically, on account of the want of space. No chronological system has been pursued in the arrangement of the Assyrian antiquities. There are two galleries, and between those two galleries there is a staircase, a very inconvenient one, lead- ing to the basement, where there are monuments which should not exactly be there if they were chronologically placed, and besides, many of the Assyrian monuments are placed practically in the Egyptian room. 2542. Of course, you attach very considerable importance to a proper chronological arrangement of the Assyrian collections ?— Undoubtedly ; half the importance of those collections is lost if you do not arrange them chronologically. I presume no person would value an Assyrian statue merely as a work of art; but it is valuable because it is an expression of a civilization extinct, and there- fore forms a link in the history of mankind. 2543. I believe you have paid considerable attention to mediseval art ? — I have, to a certain extent. 2544. Is it your opinion that the mediasval col- lections should be retained along with the collec- tion of antiquities ?— First of all, one must define what mediaeval art is, and where the line is to be drawn, i certainly have very great difficulty in. saying where it begins, and where it ends, and I suppose 20 different people would give 20 different opinions upon that point; I think you cannot draw the line. The moment you have a museum which represents what I think it ought to repre- sent, the history of civilization and of the human mind, you can draw no line, and I should con- tinue art up to the present moment in such a museum. _ 2545. You do not think it possible to draw a line between Christian and Pagan art ?— No ; I do not. _ 2546. Sir Philip Egerton.} The sculptured ivories, for instance ?— There are certain periods in the history of art where ivory sculptures, and one or two small objects of that kind, are almost theonly objects that you have of the art of the period, and they are, therefore, essential to repre- sent the art of that time. 2547. Chairman.'] Where would you draw the line as to where medieval art ends and modern art begins ?-I would draw none at all. 2548. You would extend the history of art up to the present time 1— Yes, and make no distinc- tion. 2549. What definition would you give of me- dieval art?— I am scarcely able at the present moment SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 16; moment to give a definition ; it is a very difficult thing to do. 2550. Mr. Monckton MilnesJ] Is the church of St. Clemente at Rome an example of Christian, or Pagan, or mediaeval, or classical art? — It has recently been discovered that the church of St. Clemente in Bome is of a much more recent date than had previously been conjectured, for they have discovered under it the old Basilica ; it is undoubtedly a Christian structure. 2551. Chairman.'] We have two collections at this moment of mediaeval art ; one at Kensington, and the other at the British Museum ; do you think it advisable to have two collections em- bracing the same objects pari passu ? — I think that 1he two collections do not embrace the same objects, and I think I can draw a line of dis- tinction between the Kensington Museum and the British Museum. The British Museum I look upon as a great museum, containing a history of human civilization and of the arts; Kensington Museum I look upon as a collection of objects useful for the instruction of the manufacturers of this country, and anybody who engages in art pursuits. I can draw a line between those two institutions with the greatest distinctness, and I do not see why the one should interfere with the other. I should say that the time will come when the museum at Kensington, or one founded on the same principles will form part of a national museum; I should be glad to see the Kensington Museum united to a national museum ; I should be glad to see the museum containing the whole history of art, and such an establishment as that at Kensington, where lectures could be delivered and instruction given connected together, apply- ing to art the principles which at Paris are applied to science. I should be equally glad to see under one roof the National Gallery, the National Por- trait Gallery, and all the pictures that belong to the nation. I suggested in the article which has been referred to, that the present building of the British Museum should be confined entirely to art, and that an additional storey should be erected above the present first floor, and that that ad- ditional floor should be devoted entirely to pic- tures ; you would then have a magnificent series of galleries larger than the Louvre, and larger than any galleries in the world ; you might build them in any way you liked for the reception, say, of the cartoons at Hampton Court both of Raphael and Mantegua, and for the reception of all public collections of pictures in and near the metropolis ; there would not only fee ample space for these, but sufficient room to receive additions for the next 200 years; I believe that all this might be accomplished at comparatively a very small expense, and without very great inconvenience to the country, as regards the closing of the present exhibition, I had the opportunity of speaking to Sir Charles Barry before his de- cease, on this subject, and I am able to say that he took a very favourable view of some such plan. He gave his evidence in favour of it before the National Gallery Site Commission in 1857, and other gentlemen interested in art have been equally favourable to this scheme. I think, on the whole, although at first the idea may seem to be rather impracticable, yet the more it is con- sidered the more practicable it appears to be, whether as regards the question of expense, or as regards the solution of the difficulties attending the enlargement of the British Museum and the 0.96. locality of the National Gallery, and other art A'. H. collections in this country. Lnyard, Esq. 2552. Are you not aware that although the two ■ Museums do not embrace theoretically the same 5 J u ' v '™ 0, collections and the same objects, yet practically they do ? — I do not think that practically they do ; on ihe contrary, I think there are many things at Kensington, such as specimens of manufactures from India and various parts of the woild, that I should not include in a category of art ; yet they are very important and interesting to the manu- facturers of this country. If what the question suggests be the case, the reason is this, that you have not got one man at the head of all these es- tablishments, with one directing mind who could see that the things required for the British Mu- seum were not at Kensington, and that the things required for the Kensington Museum were not in the British Museum. I think that any man who had a distinct idea of the relative purposes of the two institutions, could easily draw a line between the two. 2553. Are there not many objects at present at Kensington which the head of the department of the mediaeval collections in the British Museum would consider to belong most properly to him, and on the other, are there not many objects at the British Museum which Mr. Cole would be anxious to obtain for the Kensington Museum ? — I dare say that rivality may exist now ; but I see no reason why it should with a proper manage- ment of the two establishments. 2554. How far would you interfere to limit the discretion of each department in its purchases? — At the present moment it is very difficult to do so ; you have a distinct administration for each institution ; but if you had one administra- tion for them all, there could be no difficulty ; then the respective heads of the departments would refer to the responsible head of each, and he could determine very shortly to which establish- ment certain objects should go. 2555. Still you acknowledge that there is a disadvantage and rather a hardship upon the public taxpayer, that there should be two museums and two collections advancing together without a proper discrimination as to what articles should be put into each ? — Yes, if there is no system laid down. I hear from report that one establishment is in the habit of bidding against the other, at least the public are led to believe so. The very existence of merely a report is a great incon- venience, and might lead to much squandering of the public money. 2556. Do you know of any instance in which one establishment has bid against the other? — No ; I have only heard it asserted, and I think it may have the effect of increasing the price at which things are sold at public auctions. 2557. With regard to the ethnographical col- lections, have you any desire to see them retained in the British Museum ? — No, I think not. 2558. With regard to the prints and drawings in the British Museum, do you think they would be more appropriately entrusted to the National Gallery than to the British Museum, and would you draw any line between the two ? — You might, if absolutely necessary, draw a line between engravings and drawings. As to original draw- ings, I think the right place for them is the National Gallery, for many of those original drawings may be sketches for the pictures con- tained in the National Gallery; they should x 3 therefore i66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. li. therefore be exhibited as they are in the Louvre, Lttyard, Es + w here very often you can go from a picture to t 7 r tne collection of drawings, examine the original 5 Jn!y i Wo. s k etc .i lies f or t h a t very picture, and see the process in the painter's mind, how he varied the subject or studied its composition, which are matters of great importance, as affording instruction, not only to the artist, but to the amateur and to the public in general. I think there can be no doubt in any man's mind who looks upon art as it ought to be looked upon, that the drawings of the great masters should be placed under the same roof with their pictures. 2559. Do you consider that illuminated manu- scripts come under the head of original drawings ? — I think not. 2560. Where drawings are in a volume with letterpress, what line of distinction would you draw ? — It depends a good deal upon the nature of the letterpress. If it was an important part of the volume, of course the public library would be the place for it. 2561. Mr. Tite.] You are acquainted pretty well, I believe, with all the galleries of Europe ? — I think most of them. 2562. Do you know any one that is superior to our own in chronological arrangement ? — With reference to sculptures? 2563. Yes ; take the Vatican, or Paris, or Munich? — Perhaps not; I do not know of any museum in Europe that has so varied a collection. I believe the Vatican Collection is very limited indeed. 2564. There is, is there not, a large Etruscan collection, and a large Egyptian collection ? — The Etruscan is in an entirely distinct department. 2565. You have spoken of the British Museum, and you stated that you thought it the very worst building for the exhibition of sculptures ? — Yes. 2566. Do you really think that that remark applies without qualification, considering this, that the great gallery in which the Egyptian antiqui- ties are now was built by Sir Robert Smirke with a view to the reception of those large masses of granite in the Elgin collection, and was built expressly for it ? —I was speaking of the building as having been erected purposely to contain objects of sculpture, and I do think it is such as I have described it. I think the Egyptian Gallery is not the best gallery that could have been con- structed ; I think the lights are bad, they are very weak indeed in many parts, and you have cross- lights in all directions ; it is not a well-lighted gallery. 2567. We have been told that it was built with a view to the reception of the great Egyptian antiquities ; do you think that for those objects that gallery is ill-adapted ? — I think it is ; but, of course, this is a matter of opinion. 2568. Is there any impropriety, in your opinion, in the Elgin Gallery ? — I do not know which is that gallery, for the Elgin marbles have been constantly moved, and now they are divided into two sets, I think very injudiciously : I think that the pedimental sculptures are certainly placed in a room which is not adapted for their reception. 2569. That is not the sort of gallery that you would recommend ? — Most undoubtedly not. 2570. Have you seen Mr. Oldfield's plan which has been submitted to the Committee for building parallel galleries on the west side ? — I have just had a glance at it. 5571. Have you seen the one which has been presented to the Committee, and which has been prepared with a good deal of architectural ability showing lateral communications ? — I-t appears that I have not seen it. 2572. That plan appeared to the Committee to provide really the chronological arrangement and distinction which you seek, by obliterating the great staircase beginning in the hall, and going onwards so as to make the chronological arrange- ment complete ; you spoke of your own plan as being one great gallery with side rooms, some- thing like ribs ? — Yes ; but I stated that it was merely a suggestion that I had put forward; it is not a plan which I have considered so as to be able to give any definitive idea as to the space, or what might be done with the present building. 2573. My question referred rather to the prin- ciple than to any actual measurement or detail'; take for instance the great collections which there are in the Museum ; the great Egyptian collection, and the great Assyrian collection ; how would you arrange them consistently with your sugges- tion ? — I should have large central halls, begin- ning with the Egyptian, to contain all the large objects of sculpture which could not be contained in small rooms, or in cases, and from that large central hall I should have side rooms opening into it, containing all the smaller objects of Egyptian art, such as mummies, &c. I should then, pass- ing through a portal formed by the Assyrian Sphinxes, enter another great hall, containing all the great objects of Assyrian sculpture, with lateral rooms again, containing all the smaller objects ; a third which would contain the sculp- tures from the Parthenon or other large monu- ments of Greece, with side rooms for such objects, and so on. Thus a man wishing to compare large objects of art with small objects, could easily pass from one room to another. 2574. You would not require, I think, that kind of arrangement, to any extent, for any of the collections that we possess. A long gallery is proposed by Mr. Oldfield, that would afford a good opportunity for intermixing the smaller objects with the larger ones; I do not see the necessity for your arrangement ?— It is pro- bably now impracticable, except at very great expense ; I speak of the way in which 1 think a great art collection should be treated. 2575. But it is rather what you would like, than what you would urge ? — Yes. 2576. Mr. Monckton Milnes.} Do you consider that any practical evil has resulted from the present condition of the administration in the British Museum ? — Yes. 2577. Can you state in what direction you think that evil has lain ? — I think it is, perhaps, unavoidable, when you have men who have different interests to support, that you should have a clashing of authority. For instance, a very important collection, as far as the art depart- ment was concerned, might be in the market for sale, and another collection affecting the scientific department might be offered at the same time, and one might have to give way to the other. I do not think that there should be any reference in purchasing a collection for art, to the scientific department, for the art department may require a certain collection to complete a link that is wanting, and if a collection is offered for sale, it should be secured, for every day the difficulty of obtaining them becomes greater. Science is less SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 167 less important, because the objects of science can, with very few exceptions, be, always obtained, whereas objects of art cannot be obtained so readily. 2578 You think that the tendency of a Board consisting of persons occupied with different, but not conflicting interests, is not only to damage the general efficiency of the machinery, but to prevent that especial and express devotion to the objects of interest in it that would naturally be felt by persons who had at the same time an interest in the object and direction of the establishment ? — Yes. I think in principle that such a Board is essentially wrong, although much may be said in its favour ; and I think that the principle being so essentially wrong, public opinion must ulti- mately come to the conclusion that it is wrong, and that it is no longer right to maintain it. 2579. Might not all the advantages of admi- nistration, which can be supposed to be secured to the public, by subordinating large collections like those in the British Museum to any one Board, be equally accomplished by a Board of Govern- ment Commissioners, to whom matters of admi- nistration alone should be referred ; in other words, supposing there was a body of Royal Commis- sioners, to whom all subjects of pure administration, with regard to the different collections of the country, were referred, would not those objects be equally well secured as they are now ? — I am still of opinion, that in a department of that kind, you would require one responsible person. I do not object to a Board of Trustees, if you please to call them so, who should be named to see that certain collections which have been bequeathed to the niition, are properly kept up, and that the objects of the testator are carried out. Or even, of a Board, if you prefer that name, for the con- trol of the expenses ; but I do not think that a Board of Trustees or Commissioners should have anything to do with the actual administration of the establishment, as adding to the collections and improving them. I think that one com- manding mind alone is required. Every great and perfect collection has been made by one mind of that kind. 2580. Do you think it is necessary to have any intermediate Board or body of trustees between the establishment governed, as you propose, and the minister, through whom would necessarily come the applications for grants of money and other matters, in which Parliament would be con- cerned ? — I should make the head of the depart- ment entirely responsible for the money required and asked for to complete, or add to the collections ; I should merely give to the Board of Commis- sioners, if such a Board were absolutely neces- sary, a controlling power, and nothing else. 2581. That being the case, do you see any advantage which is derived from accumulating the different collections in the way they are accu- mulated in the British Museum ? — I should un- doubtedly add to those collections, but do you mean the art, or both together ? 2582. Altogether ? — No ; I should make a dis- tinction; I should separate the works of God from the works of man ; that is my line of dis- tinction ; all which is art I should place under. one person capable of carrying out the principles upon which such a collection should be formed ; and all that is science I should place under a man equally well acquainted with the requirements of science. Such men need not be acquainted with all the details of each particular department ; you have 0.96. now in each department very able and competent // JJ. men, who could advise such a head as I have sug- Layurd, Esq. gested, as to the particular department over which — — they had control, and with such advice he could 5 J u b' 'Son. carry out the great idea which was in his mind. No one man can be supposed to have sufficient knowledge to complete each distinct department; he has a general idea, and that general idea can be carried out for him in detail. 2583. When, therefore, you have established an entire division of the administration, do you see any advantage in those different collections being in the same locality ? — I think it is of great im- portance that they should be in the same locality; I mean all the art collections ; but without any reference whatever to the scientific collections, if it is more convenient, to keep the scientific col- lections where they now are ; if that is the opinion of the great body of scientific men in this country, I see no objection to the locality ; all I say is, that there should be a different building and a different entrance, and different superintendents ; that the visitor should not be introduced to the art department through a line. of rhinoceroses and giraffes, as they are now. 2584. Are you aware of the recommendations of the Boyal Commission in 1851 ? — Yes, I think I am. 2585. Do you agree with most of the recom- mendatians of that Commission ? — I cannot at the present moment answer the question. 2586. You have spoken of a chronological series of sculptures, is not a chronological series of sculptures of more importance as to history, than a chronological series of paintings? — I do not think so ; I think that they have each their relative importance ; they show a certain develop- ment of the human mind, and I do not think that one is more important than the other. Large sculptured monuments are certainly often of his- torical importance, as they have reference to historical events ; but paintings may also have that reference. 2587. But is not one more historical than the other ? — One particular collection may be more important to history than another, but in arranging sculpture and paintings, I do not think that a chronological arrangement is more important in the one case than in the other ; it is important in both ; a collection of pictures, if it includes all the pictures from the revival of the arts down to the present day, and is not chronological, loses the greater part of its value. 2588. Do you know the picture gallery at Berlin ? — I have not visited it since its re-arrange- ment, but I am well acquainted with the way in which it is arranged. 2589. I think it is arranged in a way you would approve? — Yes; and that is an instance of what can be done in a very short period when one leading mind has the direction of such a museum. The gallery I believe has lately been under the direction of Dr. Waagen, who has strongly ad- vocated that chronological arrangement. 2590. Mr. Tite. J That does not apply to sculp- tures ? — No. 2591. Mr. Monckton Milnes.~\ Is not the Pina- cotheca at Munich arranged on the chronological system ? — I am not certain. 2592. Do you say that in the present condition of the arrangement in the British Museum, not only is there no chronological arrangement, but that objects of the most diverse periods are placed x4 even i68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. H. even in the same room ? — Yes ; in some instances ; Layurd, Esq. particularly in the Lycian room. 2593. So as to produce entire confusion in the 5 July 18C0. m ; nc [ f t h e spectator ?— Undoubtedly. 2594. Considering the locality of the British Museum, do you think that these evils could be remedied without making any great alteration in the establishment ? — Of course it would lead to considerable alteration; you would require an alteration in the Nineveh room and in the Nineveh galleries ; you must either pull them down or re- erect them. 2595. Were those galleries and the alterations made at your own request ? — Certainly not. 2596. Have you not generally been consulted by the authorities of the Museum in the arrange- ment of the antiquities which you introduced into this country? — No; I have been occasionally asked a question by the heads of departments as to certain series, how they followed, but not as to the general arrangement. 2597. Are you aware whether that has been the case generally in the Museum, with regard to the collections which the country owes to the energy and activity of private individuals ? — I can only answer for myself; but I believe that Sir Charles Fellowes made the same complaint. 2598. Do you not think that a person who has especially studied any collection, and which he has been instrumental in giving to this country, is the person who ought to be consulted? — Most unquestionably; I should never think of arranging the marbles from Halicarnassus, without consult- ing Mr. Newton, and the same with regard to other collections, which have been acquired by other individuals ; at the same time, I think that any man at the head of a department ought to exercise his own judgment as to taking the advice of such a person. 2599. Would you recommend that we should go on receiving any collections of art that might be offered to us without limitation? — That I think depends a good deal upon the nature of the col- lection ; for instance, very recently a very magni- ficent addition has been made to the medal room by Mr. De Salis ; I should certainly think that the nature of the collection offered to the country should be first ascertained ; and if it was worth accepting, I should accept it. 2600. Do you not think that with the great impetus that has been given to the excavation of antiquities, not only in Europe, but in Asia, that any establishment might at last become almost encumbered by the quantity of objects, although of considerable historical antiquity, which might be offered ? — Not if there were a proper selection, it depends entirely upon the selection ; you would, of course, not accept everything that was sent, or offered for sale ; many things are very important, but others are not. A sarcophagus was offered to the British Museum, from Sidon, and suppos- ing it to be a genuine monument, I think it is of importance that we should possess it, for we know very little of Phoenician art ; it holds a certain place in the history of ancient art, and any specimen, I think, should be secured for the British Museum. 2601. Without looking to any distant future, is not the space at present so filled up, that it is impossible to receive any collection, whatever might be the value of it ? — I think that if there was one system, all these difficulties would be provided for ; in the National Gallery they have provided that if there are pictures which are not required there, the trustees can send them to the provinces, or to Scotland, or to Ireland, and I do not see why the same arrangement should not apply to the British Museum. If we have objects of sculpture, which are not essential, I do not see why we should not have a Museum in Edinburgh, or in Dublin, and send such objects of sculpture there, as we do pictures; if a system is good for the National Gallery, as to pictures, it is good with respect to sculptures. 2602. You are aware that an Act of Parliament has been lately passed, giving encouragement to local museums ? — Yes. 2603. Do you think that those museums might be made great use of as ancillary to the metro- politan museum? — Yes; and very often you might effect exchanges ; I know several local museums in England where there are very im- portant objects of art in duplicate which might be valuable as additions to the British Museum. 2604. Do you quite see how that large establishment could be placed under one head, or under one body, in such a way as to make its arrangements work easily? — I see no difficulty if the art department was kept distinct, with one competent man at the head of it, who had the direction of all the museums in England, being public museums, the same as in Prance ; I believe it was originally the great Colbert, who, seeing the imjiortance of art in improving French manu- factures, established a distinct department of art, and placed at the head an officer, who was called, I think, " Surintendant des Hatiments" since changed to " Directeur des Musees." This depart- ment has the general superintendence of all estab- lishments containing works of art in the kingdom ; we know the impetus that was thus given to French manufactures in the time of Louis the Fourteenth ; I think also that Kensington is an example of what can be done. That establishment has already ef- fected great good in England in the improvement of taste, and on the whole I think it shows, although there may be defects, what one man of energy who has his own distinct idea before him to carry out can accomplish. 2605. You think, therefore, that one person whose functions answered to those of the Directeur des Musees in France, and another person of equal eminence, say a naturalist, to whom were subordi- nated the museums of natural history in the country, would have the groundwork of a very advantageous system for the public ? — This sub- ject has been before me for many years, and that is the conclusion to which 1 have come. 2606. Sir George Grey.'] Am I right in suppos- ing you to recommend that there should be distinct departments in the British Museum, each depart- ment under a separate management, and the col- lections belonging to it, either placed in a distinct budding or having a separate access ? — Yes ; meaning art and science. 2607. Assuming that the collections in each of these departments would be equally accessible to the public, what is the advantage which you con- template from retaining them all in the same locality? — I do not contemplate any advantage from retaining them all in the same locality ; and I scarcely feel competent to give an opinion upon the question of locality. 2608. You do not attach any great importance to retaining the natural history collection in the same building with the works of art in the British Museum ?— I do not ; I should rather see the collection of natural history connected with a botanical SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 169 Tsotanical garden, and ultimately with a zoological collection, as at Paris. 2609. Would not a chronological arrangement of works of art require the removal of many of the largest objects from their present position in the British Museum to some other part of the building? — Undoubtedly, if you carried it out properly, but not a very large number. 2610. "Would not that be a difficult operation, involving great increase of labour and expense, and probably some risk of injury ? — I cannot say how many times I have seen the Elgin collections moved, and I think at great risk of injury ; only yesterday I went to . the Museum, and I saw a very fine fragment of the Elgin marbles hoisted up by ropes ; and I think it should not be done. 2611. Mr. MoncUon Milnes.~\ Are you not aware that that was a fragment of one of the statues, which, by the ingenuity of Mr. Lloyd, has now been discovered to be a portion of one of those ancient statues from which it has been detached for so many centuries, and which is now being joined to the original statue? — I do not object to that particular fragment having been moved, but I say that they have moved the whole collections backwards and forwards, and the pro- bability is that they will move it again, for I do not think that the present room is the room that should hold those pedimental sculptures. 2612. Sir Phillip Egerton.] I think you stated that you considered the sculptured ivories in addition to their artistic merit, as being very inter- esting in a historical point of view ? — Yes. 2613. You attach equal importance to the me- diaeval enamels, porcelain, pottery, and metal work ? — Yes. 2614. Do you think it would be creditable that the trustees of the British Museum should have no collection illustrating the history of the middle ages, with the exception of coins and medals ? — On the contrary, I think it ought to have collec- tions illustrating the history of the middle' ages ; I think you cannot draw a line ; I do not see where you can draw the line ; if you begin with Egypt, you must finish at the present time. 2615. Mr. Puller.] With respect to having one person at the head of the whole department of art, do you propose that he should also be over the natural history department ? — No, to have nothing whatever to do with the scientific collec- tions. 2616. But he should be over the whole mass of the art collections, including sculpture, painting, coins, books, and all the other things that could be collected together as throwing a light upon history? — Everything, except books; I should limit it entirely to art, and everything contained in a public museum of art I should place under one direction. 2617. Under the head of art, you would in- clude useful art? — I cannot draw the distinction between useful and ornamental art, the same object may be useful and ornamental. 2618. Ancient armour, for example? — I should call it so, if it deserved to be viewed as a work of art; but I should not call a mere old piece of armour, because old, a work of art. 2619. But ancient armour, quite independent of beauty, would be an object of interest as con- nected with history ? — Undoubtedly. 2620. In proposing such an appointment as you have mentioned, do you contemplate that it should be a permanent appointment, or that the office should be filled by an officer of the Government, 0.96. changing with the administration ? — Undoubtedly J. H. I think it should be a permanent appointment, if Layard, Esq. you have a competent man. , 2621. A man of learning ? — Yes, certainly, and 5 July 1860. capable of being at the head of such an establish- ment. 2622. Do you think that you could very easily find a person possessing a first-rate knowledge both of sculpture and of painting, and of all other matters ? — No doubt you could find such a person in England ; as I said before, a man need not have knowledge of all the details ; he would depend for them upon those eminent men at the head of each department, and there are men in the British Museum of great capacity and knowledge, whom he would consult, he would of course exer- cise his own judgment. 2623. In speaking of a chronological arrange- ment, would you adhere strictly to chronology, Or to the actual order of the different schools as they followed one another ? — That all comes under the head of chronological arrangement; you might have one room for the Venetian school, another for the Florentine school, and so on. 2624. As to sculpture, do you consider Greek civilization to be derived from Egypt, or from Assyria? — I think that there are two elements in Greek civilization, the one Egyptian and the other Assyrian ; there is the Doric and the Ionic, which are quite distinct. 2625. Mr. Turner.'] Do yon think that the trustees who represent families, should interfere in the arrangement of the general collections, con- cerning which an individual may have very im- perfect information, merely because some ancestor made particular donations to the Museum? — I have a very strong opinion upon the subject. It appears to me that when a testator appoints a trustee to look after his collection, it his intention that that collection should be devoted to the pur- pose for which he bequeathed it, and that it should be properly taken care of. To carrying out these intentions alone I should confine the duties of a family trustee ; he should visit at certain periods the particular collection given by his ancestor, or by the person he represents, to see that the wishes of the testator are carried out, and nothing else. 2626. Chairman.'] You observed, that you thought it was very embarrassing to the student of art, that he should be brought into communica- tion with rhinoceroses and giraffes ; would you attach considerable importance to any plan which would place all collections of antiquities upon one floor, removing them thereby altogether from all communication with the natural history collec- tions, and confining the natural history to another floor of the Museum? — The plan spoken of as Mr. Oldfield's plan, is a very good one, if merely taken with reference to what hereafter may be done ; but I think that any patching up is unad- visable. I think that in England the public are not yet aware of the imjDortance of a museum of art, but I think they are gradually becoming aware of it, and that the time will come when public opinion will bear so strongly upon this question, that it must be resolved in the only way in which it can be resolved, namely, that all art should be brought together under one administra- tion. I confess that I deprecate very much these grants of public money, which are merely grants for the purpose of patching up for a period. I think that it is a great squandering away of public money, and I would much rather see the thing lett as it is now, than do anything that may Y have 170 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. H. have all to be redone. Much money, for instance, Layard, Esq, has been spent upon those Assyrian galleries, and " " anything more inelegant than those galleries con- 5 July 1S00. tajnJug ^he Assyrian collections, I will defy any- body to point out. I cannot believe that they will remain as they are, and if the money given to build these galleries had been given to those who have explored the Assyrian ruins, at least twice as much would have been effected. 2627. Mr. Tite.~] Did Sir Charles Barry seri- ously entertain the proposition for building pic- ture galleries above the present galleries ? — You will see in the evidence that he gave before the National Gallery Site Commission, his opinion that another story might be added to a part of the building ; he did not, I believe, suggest it espe- cially with reference to pictures. Mr. Panizzi also suggested before the same Commission the idea of an additional story, which could be raised, on Mr. Smirke's showing, at a comparatively very small inconvenience and expense, and would solve, I believe, almost all the difficulties. 2628. Did Sir Charles Barry make any sec- tions, or work the thing out technically ? — Not that I am aware of. Sir Charles Eastlake, called in ; and Examined. Sir 2629. Chairman.] You are Director of the C. Eastlake. National Gallery ? — Yes. * 2630. The National Gallery took its rise in 1824, by the purchase of the Angerstein collec- tion ? — Yes. 2631. Were there any prints or engravings purchased along with that collection ? — I think not; some cartoons and drawings have been pre- sented from time to time. 2632. What are the collections of prints or engravings which have been purchased for the National Gallery since 1824 ? — I am not aware that any prints or engravings have been pur- chased. A small drawing by Raphael was in- cluded in the price of the pictures, the Vision of a Knight. 2633. You have however, I believe, received some donations of drawings ? — There have been some drawings presented. 2634. I believe there was a very large collec- tion bequeathed by Mr. Turner ? — Yes ; there are also some other modern drawings. 2635. In your opinion, ought the drawings of the ancient masters which are at present in the British Museum to be with the national library or with the National Gallery? — Any observa- tions that I have to submit upon that subject must either have reference to the present build- ing or to a new national gallery. If you ask me whether a national gallery, such as I should wish to see constructed, should contain drawings and engravings, as well as pictures, I should say, decidedly yes ; but it is utterly impracticable in the present building, and it is a thing which I could not, by any means, recommend. 2636. Presuming that you obtained a building suitable to the proper exhibition of the national paintings, then would you wish to have the draw- ings of the ancient masters which are in the British Museum, in such a building ? — Drawings and engravings, and also a library of books of art ; a library of books of art might possibly consist of about 3,000 or 4,000 volumes, not more ; it is a subject that is not so extensive in its literature as many others. I should strongly recommend that if there were a building fitted for the purpose, it should contain a library re- lating to art. 2637. Are you aware whether there are any drawings in the British Museum at present which illustrate the works of any of the masters whose pictures are in the National Gallery. A drawing by Parmigiano for the head of St. John, in the large picture by the master in the National Gallery, has been recently purchased for the British Museum ; and also a drawing by Perugino for a portion of the picture in three compartments by that master. 2638. Are you aware of their being any draw- ings illustrating any well-known foreign picture in the British Museum? — I cannot at this mo- ment quote particular instances ; I think it very probable that there are. Most of the drawings by the old masters are studies for pictures, and those pictures exist somewhere. There are drawings in foreign galleries which relate to the pictures in our National Gallery, and there are drawings in private collections ; the Duke of Devonshire has a drawing of the St. Catherine by Raphael, in the National Gallery, a cartoon for the same pic- ture is in the Louvre. 2639. Do you attach very great importance to the necessity of having these drawings in con- nexion with the pictures for the use of the student? — Yes, certainly. 2640. Do you attach the same importance to prints ? — I do. 2641. Is there not great difficulty in drawing the line as to what prints should be transposed from the British Museum to the National Gallery? — There would also be a necessity in the Museum itself for separating prints from books; but the collection of engravings which exists in the British Museum, and which well represents that department of art, should, 1 think, be transferred to the National Gallery. 2642. Would you transfer the whole collection? — All engravings ; but bearing in view the line of demarcation which exists between illustrated books, and engravings which serve for the pur- pose of art only. 2643. Is there not a very considerable connec- tion between those books to which you have re- ferred and early engravings ? — Yes ; and it is in many cases almost impossible to draw a decided line ; _ there is the same difficulty in separating illuminated manuscripts from drawings. 1 con- ceive that illuminated manuscripts should, for the most part, be kept among the books, and not be transferred to the collections of drawings. I see no possibility of drawing a decided line in those cases. 2644. Are there any illuminated manuscripts in the British Museum that you would transfer to the National Gallery?— On the principle I have proposed, I should say not; though there are many that contain interesting works of art. 2645. How far would you be disposed to pur- chase a well selected number of prints, showing the history of art, for the National Gallery, in- stead of transferring from the British Museum the whole collection ?— 1 should be strongly op- posed to a double collection ; I think that would be unwise; it would be difficult to say when to stop ; and in time you would have one collec- tion. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 1 7 1 tion of engravings in the National Gallery, and another in the British Museum, and that I should think unnecessary. 2646. You would, therefore, transfer, to any new national gallery the whole collection of draw- ings and prints which are now in the British Museum ? —Yes ; I am no friend to overgrown collections ; but I think, that as those branches of art go together, such a union would be advisable. 2647. Besides the illuminated manuscripts, are there not a very considerable number of books in the British Museum containing drawings, and what line would you draw with regard to them ? — There is a difficulty, as I have already said, in drawing the line ; but in general I should include among works of. art those books only in which art predominates, or in which the speci- mens of art are excellent. The same view is ap- plicable to books with engravings ; there are works which illustrate existing galleries, and those are essential in a National Gallery; but the books which come under the department of literature, and only partially relate to art, I think should belong to the department of books. If you were to include everything under the head of art which relates in any way to art, you would not know where to stop; you might would have a vast quantity of books for the sake of a few illus- trations. 2648. Mr. Tite.~] You consider, I apprehend, that a historical or chronological arrangement of a picture gallery of importance ? — For a gallery I do ; not for a private house ; I think that in a private collection it is very possible to arrange pictures so that they shall look better than they would in a museum, where they might be arranged chronologically ; but decidedly for a museum I should recommend a chronological arrangement. 2649. In that sense as connected with the his- tory of art, do not you think it would be ad- visable to have some specimens of the illumina- tions ? — Perhaps some ; and if detached speci- mens, they would come exclusively under the head of art. 2650. If you could not obtain any illustrated specimens, would it be desirable to have the books that contain them ? — No ; I think that persons who might want to consult a particular work, might go to the place where the book is icept. 2651. Is not that an essential part of the his- tory of art ? — No doubt it is part of it ; but I think it is impossible to have all works of art and everything relating to art under the same roof, for example, sculpture and painting ; I know that there are many arguments, as I heard from the witness who was last examined, in favour of having painting and sculpture under one roof; but I think that practically it is useless. The largest galleries in Europe are the Louvre and the Yatican, and it never happened to me in any number of visits that I have paid to them to go from the pictures to the sculpture, or vice versa ; it is too fatiguing. In such vast galleries it is more convenient to visit different departments on different days. 2652. If you had art under one roof, a man would not have to go from Charing Cross to the British Museum to seek it ; but he would have it all upon one spot ; if you could get the space, you would probably think it desirable? — I do not think so ; and, after all, what we call one spot is, in such an instance as the Vatican, a vast extent 0.96. of ground. I see no objection to having two or Sir three collections in the same city. V. Eastlake. 2653. Containing different objects of art? — Yes, where there is so great a difference as be- 5 July i860, tween sculpture and painting ; but things relating more immediately to painting, such as drawings and engravings, I would have near at hand. 2654. Is there any scheme under consideration now for the purpose of enlarging the National Gallery ? — I understand that there is a plan for flooring over the hall. 2655. A moderate scheme? — Yes; so as to give more extent to the National Gallery, and also to give additional room for the exhibition of sculpture. I know nothing more than what is generally reported. 2656. Sir George Grey.] Is the extension of which you speak of a nature that would admit of the removal of all the prints and drawings from the British Museum to the National Gallery? — No. 2657. Chairman.] Would you transfer to the National Gallery, if you had the space, all those prints which have been collected in the British Museum for the purpose of illustrating the earliest process of calcography and xylography ? — I should wish to see the collection as comprehensive as pos- sible, so as to give a complete history of art. 2658. In 1824, when the Angerstein collection was purchased, I think a keeper was appointed ? —Yes. 2659. To purchase additional pictures, to make rules for the admission of the public, and to super- intend the hanging and arrangement of the pic • tares ? — Yes ; the purchases were supposed to be by the trustees, on recommendations from them to the Treasury. 2660. I believe that six trustees were at first appointed, or a committee of that number, to superintend ? — Yes. 2661. Subsequently, a trust was appointed of 17, with three ex officio trustees? — I cannot re- member the number, but I think it was as you state. 2662. Were you connected with the National Gallery at that period? — No, I was not; not before 1843. 2663. You were examined, I believe, before Colonel Mure's Committee in 1853 ? — Yes. 2664. Did you give evidence then that great inconvenience arose from the composition of the management of the National Gallery ? — I thought that the Board was then too large ; I cannot call to mind whether I expressed that opinion when I * was examined before the Committee, but I think that a smaller number of trustees is always pre^ ferable. 2665. Do you find that the National Gallery has gone on better since the diminution of the number of the trustees, and since it has been put under one responsible head ? — Certainly that is my opinion. 2666. Mr. Puller?^ Supposing the engravings not to be removed to the National Gallery, and to remain at the British Museum, is it desirable that all, or the greater part of them, should be exhi- bited to the public? — It is very desirable that selections from them should sometimes be ex- hibited, and that the specimens should be changed from time to time. 2667. Would they be liable to injury from being constantly exposed to the light? — The drawings might be ; but not the engravings. 2668. Would they not become discoloured ?^- I think not; but Mr. Carpenter would be the X 2 best 172 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Sir best authority you could consult on that subject ; C. Eastlalte. at all events I think it would be advisable that t the specimens should be changed from time to 5 Juty i860, time; drawings are injured by exposure to light, particularly washed drawings ; drawings in chalk dj not suffer; drawings in Indian ink, or sepia, or any water colours, are injured. 2669. Mr. Tite.] And illuminations particu- larly ?— Yes. 2670. Mr. Monckton Milnes.] Supposing that the whole building at Trafalgar-square was given up to the National Gallery, would there be suffi- cient space for the print collections of the British Museum ? — Certainly not ; I should not recom- mend the removal under those circumstances. 2671. You would not recommend any trans- ference of the prints from the British Museum to the National Gallery, unless some new building- were constructed ? — No ; unless there were much more space ; the room now allotted to engravings in the British Museum is known to be too small, and that is much more space than could be obtained in any part of the present building in Trafalgar- square ; even if the whole were allotted to the Gallery. 2672. Do you agree with what Mr. Layard has stated with regard to the value of combining the art collections? — I do not see any necessity for having sculpture and painting under the same roof. 2673. Would you, if you had your choice, prefer that they should be in something like the same localities, like the Pinacotheca and the Glyptotheca at Munich ? — I should not object to such an arrangement ; I should not consider it by any means a defect, but at the same time I do not think any great end would be answered by it. 2674. In connexion with the study of art, is it not necessary for the young sculptor to make himself familiar with the forms of painting, and the young painter with the forms of sculpture ? — Yes ; it is all useful ; all works of art may be compared together, and art may be compared with nature ; and there is no end to' the analogies which you might wish to see established, and made accessible with the least possible difficulty ; but I think that, practically, it would tend to very little purpose to have a museum which would embrace all works of art. 2675. But, for the advantage of the student supposing a school of art to be connected with the National Gallery, will you state whether, under those circumstances, it would not be advisable that that National Gallery should contain works of sculpture as well as paintings ? — I think it would be sufficient if the same city contained them. I do not think it would be of much prac- tical use to have an enormous museum containing everything. 2676. Are not your students in the academy a good deal occupied in drawing from the round ? — Yes. 2677. Is it not necessary that they should have certain statues or casts to copy from ? — They must have statues or casts to draw from, but if that is an argument for having a school of art in con- nexion with a gallery of sculpture, it involves the necessity of a still larger scheme than any I have heard proposed. It supposes an academy in con- nexion both with painting and with sculpture. Fortunately, it is possible to have casts from statues jn any school of art, and that is a sufficient gallery of sculpture for the students. In Rome, where there are two galleries of statues, the Capitol and the Vatican, the academy of St. Luke has its collection of casts from those very statues, and the French academy has also a large gallery of casts partly from the same originals, so that those academies have sufficient materials for study, as regards sculpture, under their own roof. 2678. Mr. Tite.~\ Of course taking specimens from both collections ? — Yes. 2679. Chairman.] Are you not aware that prints and other works of art of the same period were very often executed by the same person, such as the goldsmith ? — No doubt. 2680-81. Therefore the keeper of the mediaeval department in the British Museum might have very great reason to complain if prints executed by the same class of workmen, as some other of the mediaeval works, were separated from one another, as they both illustrate each other ? — I really do not see any objection in that ; such an argument would lead one to desire that the paintings of Michael Angelo and his architecture and sculpture should all be collected together. Albert "Wat, Esq., called in ; and Examined. A. Way, Egq. 2682. Chairman.'] I believe you have been occupied in the pursuits of archaeological science as auxiliary to historical inquiry? — Yes; for a considerable number of years, as Director of the Society of Antiquaries, and subsequently in con- nexion with the Archaeological Institute. 2683. Have you been endeavouring to arrange the collections you have been connected with in chronological order ? — That has been my endeavour, at a very great sacrifice of time and trouble, chiefly in the museums formed during the last 15 years at the annual meetings of the institute, in order to show the great value of archaeological vestiges as historical evidence, and their special importauce in the pre-historic period, presenting, as they do, almost the sole evidence that we possess. 2684. For this purpose, I presume, you would advocate an ample scientific collection of antiqui- ties of every period, but especially of the earliest pre-historic times ? — Yes ; and I have had occasion to prove the great difficulty that arises from the want of some extensive public collection of ready reference to the student, and the impossibility of producing classification without some such means of reference on a very ample scale. 2685. I presume you attach very considerable importance to the British collections in the British Museum ? — The establishment of a British room has been a subject of the greatest interest to me, and I regard it as of the highest importance, as connected with national history. 2686. Would you be disposed to divide that col- lection into the pre-historic, the Roman, the Saxon, and the English mediaeval? — Most un- questionably I would recommend those principal divisions ; but I should regret to see those clases of national antiquities separated; I think that they essentially hinge one upon the other. 2687. Your opinion is that the whole of the British collections ought to be maintained at the British Museum ? — I consider that they are most essential to the chain of historical evidence. 2688. Do you think that the difficulties would be insurmountable in separating those British col- lections SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. *73 lections from the other antiquities ? — I do not see . how it is possible to draw a line, without destroy- ing the advantage that I conceive to accrue from these collections. 2689. Supposing that a line of demarcation was taken, separating Christian from Pagan art ; to which class would you ascribe the rude flint in- struments found in the drift, and the enamelled bronzes supposed to be of Celtic origin ; would you class them under Pagan or Christian art ? — Unquestionably under Pagan. 2690. Then I suppose that relics of the Roman occupation of Britain would be classed by you under Pagan art? — With very few exceptions; there would be an occasional overlapping of the two periods in that particular instance. 2691. With regard to Saxon antiquities, would you be disposed to class vestiges of the Teutonic races in England as Pagan or Saxon? — There again you would have a mixture of Pagan and Christian ; a division of such collections would lead us into inextricable confusion. 2692. I presume you would consider the other •portion of the British collection, to which I have referred, as clearly Christian, and you would re- •gard it as English mediaeval ? — Yes, clearly within the pale of Christianity. 2693. Do you think it would be necessary to dissociate some portion of the Saxon relics from the others, if you keep up a distinction between Pagan and Christian art? — It would be the destruction of those means by which we endeavour to promote archaeological science. 2694. With regard to the main bulk of those .collections consisting of weapons, implements, ornaments, and pottery, are you of opinion that there would be at young of a bird, and the bird arriving at maturV as we ll as the full grown bird; do you think tft any great deduction could be made from the spec\, e ns which are now exhibited in the British MWun? — I think there could be very little dedu^ on made from the number. 2825. Do you think that some of thL w ;hich are now exhibited might be dispensed Vh ? — I think where there are four or five exaaU es f one species, some might be removed, if it V s de- termined to exhibit only a typical series. \ can _ not fancy that they would be all left there. 2826. Are those of which you _ speak^ n( j which might be dispensed with, varieties 0: same species, or are they duplicates? — Duplici there are certainly duplicates amongst the bi: which are now exhibited. 2827. Do you found that opinion upon a ve' close examination of the birds that are exhibit^ there at the present time ? — I have often referred to the galleries there, and I have no doubt thatf there are duplicates there ; I believe the practice has formerly been, that all specimens should be set up, and therefore, of course, there would natu- rallv be duplicates. 2828. Chairman.] Do you remember being in 0.96. company with me at the British Museum a short time ago, when I pointed out to you seven speci- mens of Pterocles and five specimens of another ? —Yes. 2829. Did I not ask you whether you could perceive the slighest difference between them ? — Yes, I recollect your doing so, and I counted them over with you ; and, as far as I remem- ber, there were two nearly allied species and several duplicates of each. Your statement is perfectly correct ; we did look at the group of Pterocles, and there were four or five specimens of one or two species. 2830. Sir George Grey.] Did you ask the curator whether they were varieties of the same species ? — No. 2831. Mr. Ayrton.] You could not distinguish any difference between those seven objects?- — Not in the off-hand way in which we examined them ; if the case had been opened, and we had taken them out, we might have found differences between them. 2832 Sir George Grey.] I asked you whether you had examined the specimens at the British Museum yourself so closely as to be able to state to the Committee that the specimens exhibited are duplicates, and not varieties ? — I did not ex- amine them with reference to that point, but I have no doubt, and I believe I am right in saying that there are sundry duplicates set up in the galleries of the British Museum. 2833. Chairman.] With regard to those parti- cular birds to which I have referred, if the differ- ence between them was so minute that you, who are accustomed to ornithology, did not perceive it ; do you think that an exhibition of such specimens is at all calculated to strike the eye, or instruct the public ? — Supposing that they were properly labelled, and the points of difference were alluded to on the labels, I think it would be desirable to have the male and female and the young, even although they might be very nearly allied ; sup- posing that the species was taken as a typical species of the genus Pterocles. I think you ought to exhibit the male and female and the young of three or four species as types of the genus; but that they ought to be distinguished by labels, so that the public could see the reason why they were exhibited. 2834. Do you think that in the particular in- stance to which I have referred, where the dis- tinction is so slight, that you, who are a practical ornithologist, could not discover it, it is advisable to exhibit such specimens to the public instead of putting them in drawers ? — I do not think that it is necessary to exhibit them to the public. I think that the public would derive greater instruction from a smaller series. 2835. Mr. Walpole.] The class of cases which you examined, where there were five or six of the same character apparently, I suppose is just the class of cases in which you would exhibit one or two, and keep the rest in drawers? — I do not quite understand the question. 2836. Take one of the cases which you exa- mined with the Chairman, you say that there were six or seven apparently duplicates ; those, I presume, you would not wish to have exhibited ? No. 2837. Supposing there were some minute dif- rences between them, those are exactly the s of which you might exhibit one or two, and the skins of the remainder in drawers? — that is exactly one of the cases. 2838. Sir P.L.Sclater, Egq. g July i860. i8o MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE P.L.Sclater, 2838. Sir George Grey.] May it not be very Esq. desirable to exhibit actual duplicates of birds. In some instances, for example, would it not be very 9 July j 860. useful to have birds with their wings closed, and others with their wings expanded; would they not present a very different appearance as to colour and plumage? — Yes; but I think when that sort of minute study is to be made, it is better to give persons access to the Museum, and let them examine them there, for, generally speaking, I do not think it is necessary to exhibit a bird in four or five different attitudes. 2839. For example, how would you exhibit the peacock ; with its tail closed or expanded ; and would the exhibition of one peacock be sufficient ? — Of the peacock, I should say, there would be required several specimens for exhibition as of the type of a family. 2840. Mr. Walpole.] The beautiful bird of Para- dise, I presume, you would not exhibit merely with the wings closed ? — -No ; it would be a typi- cal bird probably, and would be exhibited, as a bird especially worthy of being seen by the public. I think you might select one specimen, and put it in one attitude, and the next in a second attitude. 2841. Mr. Ayrton.] Is it not in the very nature of a collection that that which is fit for a casual and uninformed observer, will never be fit for a student or scientific observer ? — I think that they are two different objects altogether. 2842. And the mode of exhibition which is suitable to the one would be unsuitable to the other ? — Yes, certainly, because in the one case, it is desirable that the scientific observer should take the specimens in his hands, and make a very accurate examination of them ; whereas, the casual observer does not require that. He wants to get the best general ideas he can of the family, or the bird that he looks at. 2843. It is essential that nothing should be touched, is it not ? — Yes, I should think so ; in our country, at any rate. 2844. Can you give any idea of the number of persons who visit the grounds of the Zoological Society ? — Yes ; I can state to the Committee how many visited it last year. The number was very nearly 366,000. 2845. Can you state on what days it is that visitors chiefly come to the Gardens ? — Chiefly on Mondays. 2846. They all pay for admission, do they not? — Yes. 2847. Is it the same on every day in the week ? — No ; the admission on Monday is 6 d. 2848. And on the other days how much is it ? — One shilling. 2849. On Sunday subscribers only and their friends visit the Gardens ? — Yes. 2850. Can you state what proportion the num- bers who come on Monday bear to those who visit the Gardens during the other five days in the week ? — I cannot tell you off-hand ; but I think there are eight or nine times the number on Mon- days. 2851. There would be more present on a Mon- day than the whole of the other days of the week, excluding Sunday ? — Our receipts on Monday are on the average four times what they are on the other days of the week, supposing the weather to be equally fine. 2852. What is the class of persons who come on the [V] onday ?— They are principally, I think, persons from the east end, who are taking their Monday's holiday. / 2853. Of what class are they on the other days of the week ? — They are of a higher class ; I may state the reason why we imagine that to be the case ; it is because more persons enter by the foot entrance, at the east end of the gardens, on Mon- day, than upon any other day. 2854. What is the proportion of adults to children ?— I am not able to state that. 2855. Do you think that the numbers are much smaller by reason of the distance that the gardens are from the part of London from which they come ? — I think the gardens are very favourably situated in that /respect ; they might certainly be still nearer the pit/ population, but I know of no other place to which they could be moved. 2856. Mr. .Pulljr.] You stated, I think, that you considered there were a good many duplicates, but, under the name 9? duplicates you would not, I suppose, include varieties of the same species ? — I have never Examined the Museum with the view of ascertain/ng ihat point. 2857. Suppo/ing there were a number of varieties of pigeon, would you consider them duplicates? — Wot f they were varieties of the domestic pigeon. 2858. Supposir? you found half a dozen dif- ferent varieties, ^ould you propose to withdraw all but one from the exhibition ? — I think in the peculiar case of the pigeon, and some other ani- mals, it might e advisable to exhibit a series of varieties. 2859. Youwould consider that an exceptional case ? — Yes. 2860. As general rule, you would not exhibit varieties ? — ^ot to the public. 2861. BVe you considered with reference to the actual umber which is exhibited whether the withdraw; of the varieties would verv much re- lieve theses ?—■ I think the entire withdrawal of duplicate would make a large amount of room in the c j es at present in the Museum. 2862 1 understand that you would propose to exhibiooth sexes and the young ; would it not be desire, for the purpose of those who come to im- prov'themselves, that there should be exhibited alon with each species the skeleton ? — Yes ; one sketon of every genus, perhaps ; not of every sp^s. J 863. Are there not material differences in the g 3letons of different species ?— They are very Acult to distinguish: the skeletons of allied jecies, among the Passerine birds particularly. James Pennethoene, E-> caUed in ; and Examined. j, 2864. Chairman.] You are Architect of tl Pennethorne, Board of Works ? — Yes. Esq. 2865. Mr. Ayrton. J The Government some t* since purchased Burlington House, and the grc 1 ^ round it ? — Yes, they did. iJ?™, W ^ dldltco8t? — ^ cost was ab °ut oS» w-Vi not remember tfl e exact sum. .28o7. Will you be good enough to "give the dimensions of the ground ?-The ground alto- gether is nearly 600 feet long on the east side, and SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. l8l and 583 feet on the west side, therefore you may say that it is about 590 feet long, and it is 248 feet wide. 2868. What is the area in square feet ? — It contains altogether about 144,000 square feet. 2869. At present nothing has been done with that building? — No; a great many appropri- ations have been discussed, but nothing has been done. 2870. The buildings at present upon it are un- suited for any public purpose, are they not? — They are suitable for the purposes to which they are now appropriated ; they are at present occu- pied by the Royal Society, the Linnasan Society, the Chemical Society, and the University of London. 2871. When you say that they are occupied, do you mean that the large hall is used by those societies for the purpose of their public meetings ? — Yes ; the entire main body of the building and the east wing is occupied by them, as well as the great hall on the western side. 2872. Has the Chemical Society a separate office ? — They have a few rooms ; only two or three rooms. 2873. Have they not also a house in White- hall-place ? —No. 2874. The buildings at present occupy a very small part of the ground ?— They take up alto- gether not quite one half of the ground. 2875. They do not actually cover one-half of the ground ? — The buildings, together with the quadrangle; and there is a very large quadrangle; the quadrangle on the south side is surrounded by a very large colonnade, so that the ground now covered by buildings with the quadrangle is nearly one-half the entire space. 2876. Is it practicable to construct on that ground galleries running from Piccadilly to the street at the back ? — To Burlington Gardens ; yes, of course it would be practicable if it was thought right to pull down the present buildings. 2877. The present buildings afford very small accommodation, do they not, considering the space that they occupy ? — It would depend, of course, upon the purposes to which they should be appro- priated. 2878. Can you tell the exact number of square feet in the building itself? — The main body of the building covers 7,500 feet ; each side covers 4,000 ; the small gallery on the west, 2,600 ; making a total of 18,000 square feet. 2879. Superficial feet ? — Yes, superficial feet on the ground. 2880. Supposing galleries to be built from Piccadilly to Burlington Gardens, what area would they cover, and how many galleries could you build parallel to each other ? — Of course to a much greater extent than that ; I cannot give you the extent without making plans ; plans have been made, but I have not got them ; I have made several plans to determine what could be done with the ground. 2881. How many galleries could you build parallel to each other, running from Piccadilly to Burlington Gardens ? — I should think not more than two ; but that, again, would depend entirely upon the appropriation of the galleries, and upon whether you would have a very large internal area for carriages to stand in ; for national galleries you might want large internal spaces ; the last plan that was proposed was for national galleries, for a Eoyal academy, for a patent office, and for 0.96. the public societies, so that there were a good many /. to be accommodated. Pennethorne, 2882. You think you could build two parallel % S <1- galleries ?■ — You could get them ; and you might - get galleries at the north and the south ends, and 9 y 1 °°' possibly one in the middle. 2883. What would be the breadth of those galleries ? — There is only 200 feet width of ground to deal with, for on the west side there is a right of way, which would have to be left unbuilt upon ; and on the east side there are rights of light, which must be respected ; therefore you could not build more than 200 feet wide, and if you took two buildings of 60 feet, that is 120 feet from 200, it would leave 80 feet for a street between them ; so that you could get two galleries of about 60 feet wide each. 2884. That would only give you a good light on either side towards the quadrangle ? — Yes ; but I think it is possible to lay out the ground so as to get more building than that, and have good lights also ; and I believe myself, that by leaving the present building untouched, and Burlington House is one of the very finest examples of archi- tecture that we have in this country ; if it were left untouched you might, at the back of it, get very fine buildings, more than 200 feet square. 2885. Supposing you built from Piccadilly to Burlington Gardens two galleries of the dimen- sions you have described, what would be the area covered 'by the buildings ? — Supposing you built a gallery 550 feet long and 60 feet wide, that would be 33,000 feet, and the double of that, of course, for the other side, would be 66,000 ; and then with cross galleries you probably would get 70,000 feet of superficial building. 2886. All with a good light ?— Yes. 2887. Do you see any objection to building three stories high on that ground ? — None what- ever. 2888. That would give you two floors with side lights, and gallery space with a roof-light above ? —Yes. 2889. Do you think it is a convenient thing to put a gallery at the top of a building with a roof- light ? — Of course that must depend upon the appropriation of the building. 2890. You see no objection to it in an architec- tural point of view, as to elevation? —No ; as to elevation, and as to architecture, there can be no objection. 2891. What would be the cost of erecting gal- leries to cover ground like that, supposing there was no great amount of architectural decoration ? — I have not made any estimate of the cost. 2892. Chairman.'] Are 70,000 superficial feet of floor space the whole amount that you could obtain from Burlington House, presuming that all the space were given to you ? — Yes, I think so, unless you were to crowd the buildings; you might get more, but it would depend upon the access and light required for them. 2893. Mr. Ayrton.] In any rebuilding, would the present materials be of any value ? — Very slight ; they are not worthy of consideration. 2894. Chairman.] With regard to these 70,000 superficial feet, is the calculation made for galle- ries of only one story ? — Only the ground covered with buildings, and therefore only one story. 2895. What would be the additional number of feet that you would gain if you had a building of three stories erected ? — Three times that ; 210,000. 2896. Would it be three times that ? — Yes, I should think so. z 3 2897. Mr. l82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE J- 2897. Mr. Ayrton.] If the galleries were _60 Pennethurne, feet broad, would it be necessary to have side Esq. HgHts on both sides of the building? — If you made a building 60 feet wide, you must of neces- 9 July i860. sity l{ght it on b ot h sides. 2898. Mr. Hardy.] You do not think it ad- visable to destroy the present building ? — No. 2899. There is space behind to get a very use- ful building ? — Yes ; there is abundant space behind it to erect a public building of 200 feet square, without touching the present building ; you might erect there a building double the size of the present building at Trafalgar-square. 2900. Mr. Ayrton.'] You could extend that building towards Piccadilly, if necessary, by pul- ling down the present house ? — Yes ; I believe if any very fine building were erected on the back ground, approached by the quadrangle, and through the present building, it would be one of the finest things in London. 2901. Chairman.] The galleries that you have contemplated would be entirely within the present area of the building itself? — Supposing the pre- sent buildings to be removed, and the entire ground covered with new buildings. 2902. Mr. Puller..] When you speak of 200 feet square, do you mean a solid block of build- ings?— Yes; a block of buildings that would measure 200 feet one way, and 250 the other. 2903. If you suppose that two galleries were built from Piccadilly to the back, would there be light enough on the west side for the lower rooms? — Yes, I think so ; there would be for a considerable part, if not for the entire, because the level of the present ground floor is high as compared to the Burlington Arcade, and if you built to that level the wall of the arcade would be little -more than a garden wall, and .abundant .light would be obtained over it. Henry Cole, Esq., c. b., called in ; and Examined. H. Cole, 2904. Chairman.] You are Secretary of the Esi[., c.b, Science and Art Department and General Super- intendent of the South Kensington* Museum ? — I am. 2905. Will you have the goodness to inform the Committee what you consider to be the scope of the Kensington Museum? — The Kensington Museum primarily accommodates the collections of ornamental art, made for the use of the schools of art throughout the country. Secondly, it ac- commodates collections which have been destitute of any space found for them by the public. 2906. Then, I presume, with reference to the first object of the Kensington Museum, the objects that you collect are those of decorative art, and objects of beauty which may be sugges- tive to our manufacturers? — Yes; broadly, that is the definition of the objects that we collect ; I can read to the Committee the classes of objects into which our collection of ornamental art is divided, or I will lay before the Committee an inventory {handing in the same), in which all the objects are enumerated which are objects of orna- mental art which are deposited in the South Ken- sington Museum, and which are from time to time circulated as far as possible to the various schools throughout the country. The inventory which I have handed in, as the Committee will see, gives the names of various objects; it is divided into classes, and gives the price which public funds have paid for an object, the source whence it was obtained, and the year when it was bought. The collection is divided into sculpture, glyptic and numismatic art, mosaics, japanned or lackered work, glass, paintings, enamels, pottery, and decoration generally. Those classes have been arranged more for practical convenience than from any logical or scientific point of view. 2907. Then, I presume, the purchases which you have made in those classes are, for the sake of their beauty, with reference to the improve- ment of manufacturing taste in this country ? — Expressly. 2908. I think your strength in the Kensington Museum chiefly lies in the mediaeval renaissance ? — Knowing that the British Museum is especially and pre-eminently strong in what may be called classical antique art, we have always scrupulously avoided ever buying any specimens that could come under that class; we are content for the use of the schools to obtain casts of the classical art in the British Museum ; and we think, also, that the specimens of what is broadly called mediaeval, or renaissance art, are more practically useful than the art of the Egyptians or, perhaps, of the Greeks and Romans. 2909. You have not very many objects, I think, anterior to the fifth century ? — No ; I should doubt if we have one. 2910. The scope of the British Museum, I pre- sume, you consider to be archaeological, and that the objects selected there are selected on the prin- ciple of illustrating the history of a period, and of the country, and of the men producing the objects ? — That has been practically the case, but what the precise scope of the collections in the British Mu- seum is I am not very well informed upon. 2911. Are there many objects in the British Museum which would be valuable as regards your art collection ? — We make use of the British Museum for casts from the objects in the Greek and Roman collections. The British Museum contains a small quantity of mediaeval works, which of course would supply the lacunas in our own collections. 2912. I am referring now to the works of me- diaeval art in the British Museum ; are there many that would be valuable for your art collections ? — They would strengthen them. 2913. Are there many objects, on the other hand, at Kensington, that would be valuable for an archaeological and historical collection ? — From an art point of view, not from a science point of view, some. I would make that answer more pre- cise by saying, from the science point of view, that I particularly allude to the collection of animal products, which, I think, oughtto be with a national animal collection. 2914. You have stated that you do not purchase classical remains ; do you not think that ancient classical vases, lamps, and bronzes would be calcu- lated much to improve the taste of the manufac- turers in this country ? — Certainly. 2915. Do you think that there is any greater reason for transferring the collection of mediaeval art to the department of science find art at Ken- sington, than there is for transferring the classical collections in the British Museum ?— I think, deal- ing with the subject in a practical point of view, there SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 183 there is a reason. If the nation- determined to have collections of art in one national collection of art, I apprehend that that might be interpreted to mean, art of all nations, and aa?t of all periods ; but the practice of the British Museum has been, not to accept many classes of art which we think indispensable, such as furniture and' Indian fabrics, and casts of various kinds ; in fact, the British Museum, as I understand, draws a line pretty tightly at various points. As an illustration, I may mention, in the first instance, that a cast of Michael Angelo's " David," having been presented to this country, was first offered to the British Museum, and, on principle, they preferred not to accept it, and they transferred it to the South Kensington Museum. Again, the collection of the Grherardini models, consisting of one specimen of modelling by Raphael, and several by Michael Angelo, and others, were, I think, if not officially, more or less officially, offered to the British Mu- seum ; but they were not conceived to come within their province, under what rules, I cannot say. But they were not conceived to come within their pro- vince, and they were accordingly passed over to the South Kensington Museum. 2916. Do you think it would be incompatible with the objects of the South Kensington Museum to make it a general museum of mediaeval art? — If Parliament thought that Kensington was a good situation for that purpose, having already a very large collection, it would not be difficult to add the little collection in the British Museum. 2917. Do you think that there would be any difficulty in combining educational with archaeolo- gical objects? — Practically, not. 2918. There is no doubt a clear distinction be- tween a collection to illustrate mediaeval his- tory, and the archeology of art, and a collection of models for art manufactures ? — Our object is to eollect specimens useful to manufactures, such as an enamel, showing lucidity, or where it is beau- tiful to exhibit it. Of course, if you collect simply from the archaeological point of view, you may have things unnecessary in fine art, and we, having to deal with Art Schools, might be put to it to justify or explain why we had a monster, although it might be very interesting as an archaeological specimen. 2919. Still it would be perfectly compatible with the purpose of your Museum to carry out its objects as to making collections useful for manu- factures, to circulate those which were useful, for the purpose of instruction in art, and retain at home those that were of a more archaeological and historical character? — Yes; I think it is an un- wise expenditure of the public money to have similar objects, from merely different points of view, amassed in two national collections. 2920. Do not you think that having two col- lections of this kind is calculated rather to starve both ? — In the abstract no doubt it is ; how far the British Museum is starved, the authorities can of course answer ; but so far as South Ken- sington is concerned, Parliament has been liberal, and we have not been starved. Parliament votes money, and it entrusts the expenditure of it to the responsible Minister of the Crown ; and if I wished to point to one institution, which is pre- eminently distinguished above any in this country for its direct Parliamentary responsibility, I should instance my own department. 2921. With reference to your own depart- ment, how far do you consider that the Committee 0.96. i860. of Privy Council would be competent to deal with H. Cole, subjects illustrating history and archaeology? — Esq,c.B. The Committee is aware that the Committee 'of Privy Council is practically managed by the Lord President, or, in his absence, by the Vice Presi- dent of the Committee of Council for Education ; and there you have a single undivided responsi- bility, which is the most useful thing in the world, as distinguished from a large fluctuating dilettante responsibility. That individual responsibility is able to obtain the highest possible scientific infor- mation, rapidly and necessarily as it may require it. In our own case we have, when we require it, for Art Schools, the opinion of the President of the Royal Academy, Mr. Maclise ; and for the purposes of art, useful to schools, we have Mr. Redgrave, a Royal Academician, constantly ad- vising the Board ; and we have in addition, I be- lieve, the most experienced art-collector and ad- ministrator, or one of them, that this country can produce. Parliament can call for a return when it pleases of everything that we spend ; and the fact is shown, that we do make a pretty fair state- ment of the whole business in the inventory, which I have now produced. It is, I say, a document, the like of which is not shown by any public de- partment in this or any other country. I point to that inventory as being the last link and sequence in a complete chain of the tightest Parliamentary responsibility. 2922. Do you not think that the Committee of Privy Council would be more competent to deal with matters of taste, than they would be to deal with matters involving arch^ological research, which would be requisite, should the mediaeval collections be transferred to the Kensington Museum from the British Museum ?— I am afraid, to give such an answer as I feel it right to give, I must be somewhat lengthy ; I think that the first object, where public money is spent, is to get a public individual responsibility; and I think, that where that responsible individual is required to exercise ajudgment, being accountable to Par- liament, either for a collection of archeology, or for a collection of art, as a matter of administra- tion, he is bound to get the best scientific advice that he can ; and I do not see any difference in the principle of administration, between collecting objects of archeology and collecting objects of art. 2923. If you obtain at present, at Kensington, the best advice you can, in the purchase of objects of art, you would be able to obtain, in case the me- diaeval collections were removed from the British Museum, the best advice of archaeologists as to the purchase of the specimens that might be obtain- able ? — Yes ; we have that as it is ; I believe we are in very harmonious relations with the most eminent archaeologists in this country, and as a proof of it, they lend us property of very consi- derable value. 2924. If a transference was made of the me- diaeval collections in the British Museum to Ken- sington, upon what principle would you arrange them as medieval collections, scientifically, or as- models of industrial art ? — We should put them into the categories into which the inventory is divided ; ivories with ivories, sculpture with sculp- ture, majolicas with faience of that character, enamels with enamels, and if there happened to be an ugly one, we should not say much about it. 2925. Mr. Ayrton.'] What do you mean by b medieval art collection ? — Mr. Hallam has written a book, which he called the History of the Middle z 4 Ages, i 84 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE H. Cole, Ages, and I should say that I agree with him in Esq., c. b. the sort of practical division into which he has divided the history, calling it of the middle ages. 9 J^'j 2926. Every branch of art that was produced 1 8oo. during those ages you would put into one collec- tion ? — From the point of view of its utility, as illustrating history and being suggestive to manu- facturers. 2927. You have in your category a title, " Glyp- tic and Numismatic Art," would you have every- thing that was produced referable to those heads, during a certain number of centuries, put into one museum apart from objects of the same kind that were produced in other centuries ? — The Honour- able Member has hit upon a very apt illustration ; he no doubt is well aware that the history of almost all peoples can be read in their coins and medals ; the history of the Greeks, and the history of the Romans, and so on ; and no doubt if you take a collection, from a Mint point of view, it ought to extend over medals and coins, and all the periods of all countries. If you take a collection of coins, simply from an artistic point of view, it would be but a very small collection, and in my opinion ought to be supplemental to the other collection. 2928. But it would still extend over other periods and other ages than those which you call the middle ages, would it not? — I should like to see it ; there would be but very- few specimens ; we have bought no Greek or Roman coins ; we have confined them to mediaeval coins or mediaeval medals. 2929. Do you consider that the objects pro- duced during the middle ages, are the finest spe- cimens of art, and that they ought to be exhibited from an art point of view ? — I should be very sorry to summon a jury of any number of people to resolve that question. I think that the works of Michael Angelo, and Pisano, and Albert Durer, and Holbein are very fine things upon their own merits. If you ask me whether I think the Greek medals are very fine things, I say emphatically yes ; but as to determining the word best or finest, I should hesitate to pronounce the words. 2930. If you made an exhibition from an art point of view, would it be satisfactory if it ex- cluded all works of Greek and Roman art, and all works of modern art since the end of what you call the middle ages ? — We have dealt with that question, or have attempted to deal with it, from a practical point of view, and wc find in buying largely mediaeval objects, that we want medals and coins to inform our students, and we therefore have bought them. If the Honourable Member asked me what I would do with the British Mu- seum, I should say that for the purposes of our schools, I should be content with a few types so as to make a sequence of art, qua art, as distin- guished from archaeology, but we have not yet had time upon this question of medals and coins, to make our collection quite as complete as 1 hope it will become. 2931. Do you consider your exhibition at Ken- sington suited purely for the purposes of art, in which it is perfectly immaterial whether the object be original or a cast, or do you consider it con- nected in any way with the preservation of original objects in an archaeological point of view ? — Our first object is, to put an example of beauty before the student, whether it be a cast or an electrotype. An electrotype is so close an imitation that hardly anybody can tell whether it is genuine or not (which is a matter of complete indifference) ; there are other classes of objects, as to which we very much prefer originals to copies ; for instance, majolicas. There is a quality and flavour in the original spe- cimens that no copy whatever can realise. With respect to a marble statue, from one point of view, if a drawing is wanted, I think that a cast is pretty nearly as good as the marble statue ; but from another point of view, with regard to all those qualities which are given by the material, and its translucency, there is no comparison ; for the draw- ing school, a cast very nearly serves all practical purposes. 2932. Sir George Grey.~] I understand you to say, that you could receive into the South Ken- sington Museum the mediaeval collections now in the British Museum, if it were thought expedient to remove them ? — Yes, I think without difficulty ; but as to room we are a little squeezed. 2933. Can you express any opinion as to the expediency of removing what are termed the me- diaeval collections from the British Museum, bear- ing in mind the separate and distinct objects of the British Museum and of the South Kensington Museum? — The expense would not be great. My opinion is, that if there is to be a national collection of mediaeval art; it had better be all in some one place, whether collected from the archaeological, or from the artistic point of view. If you are prepared to enlarge the British Museum, so that it may receive all the classes of mediaeval art that we have collected at South Ken- sington, that would be the national depository. I have only then to say, do not damage the public in prohibiting them from borrowing those articles for the use of the local schools. 2934. The question is, whether the complete- ness of the collections of art in the British Museum would not be impaired by the removal of the mediaeval collections from that Museum ? — I think, whether you have the classical collections in the British Museum in Great Russell-street, and the mediaeval collections in Victoria Park, or at Ken- sington, or in the Regent's Park, is, for practical purposes, a matter of complete indifference. 2935. I want to know whether the situation of the Kensington Museum has in your opinion acted prejudicially to a number of persons visiting it from different parts of London, and whether it is so far removed from the east end of London that the distance is practically a bar to its being of use to the inhabitants of that part of London ? — There can be no doubt that a museum six miles distant is not very convenient to parties living six miles off. If you ask me whether the South Kensing- ton Museum site is inconvenient for the public at large to visit, and if you ask me to give my opinion by comparing it with other national institutions, then, if the comparison be correct, I should say that the South Kensington Museum was the most con- venient place in London. 2936. Have you any means of knowing from what part of London persons come to visit the South Kensington Museum ? — I have put in some facts bearing upon that question before the Com- mittee on Public Institutions. We found practi- cally that the great majority of visitors to the South Kensington Museum, calculated over a certain number, whom we requested to give their ad- dresses, by far the greater majority, in the propor- tion of six-eighths, came beyond a three miles' dis- tance. Whilst upon that point, I do not wish it to be understood that I assert that South Ken- sington is a bit better site than any other that there SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 185 there is in London ; but I would draw the atten- tion of the Committee to a fact, that I believe in two years time the South Kensington will probably be the only public museum where the metropolitan public will be able to deposit themselves at the doors by means of a railway. I am not aware of any project for carrying a railway to the doors of the British Museum, or to any other museum ; but there was one project before Parliament this year which would have brought an inhabitant of the Victoria Park district close into the South Ken- sington Museum, within, probably, half an hour of his starting. I am aware that two other pro- jects are now brewing, the object of which is to give the whole of the metropolis, east, west, north, and south, the means of coming to the South Ken- sington Museum, and not merely the metropolis, but all England ; the object is, not the South Ken- sington Museum only, because that is an accident, but the object is to bring visitors to the jsroposed Horticultural Gardens and the proposed Exhibition of 1862 ; and the practical effect will be that any- body in any part of London, and probably at a very low price, will be able to put himself under cover in the South Kensington Museum. 2937. Do you know what the proportion of the working classes is to the whole number of visitors to the South Kensington M useum ? — It would be obviously a very difficult fact to ascertain; we do know that on the nights when the Museum is opened, on Mondays and Tuesdays, by far the greater bulk of the visitors are men obviously be- longing to the working classes ; I took some pains some time ago to ascertain from Messrs. Garrards and Mr. Crace,the decorator, and Messrs. Hollands, the upholsterers, how many of their workmen went to the respective public institutions in London ; I can put in the facts, but they showed that the working people, as a class, frequent the various public institutions comparatively in a very small degree. Indeed, I think it must be quite obvious, that where a man has only perhaps one or two days' holidays in a year, and when, if he comes at all, he must come at a great personal sacrifice, as they must feel the loss of their daily wages ; it is quite clear that institutions simply opened in the daytime, be they in what part of London they may, are practically closed to working people. 2938. Have you observed whether the working men who come in large numbers, bring their families with them? — Yes; and it is a very plea- sant sight to see that a man brings his wife and children ; on the Monday night especially. I may also mention, that a gentleman, well known for his benevolent exertions for the improvement of the working classes, the Reverend William Rogers, knows practically, that the working peo- ple in his district do avail themselves of the oppor- tunity of coming in an evening to the South Kensington Museum ; and he has also been accus- tomed, more than once during the year, to bring two or three omnibuses full of old people, who come and enjoy such things as we can show in the evening. 2939. How do the great mass of the people come ? — That is a point that I have not very care- fully investigated ; omnibus traffic has certainly very largely increased since the South Kensington Museum has existed ; but, so far as I have ob- served, I should say that the bulk certainly come on foot. 2940. Mr. Walpole.'\ What quantity of space 0.96. have you got in the South Kensington Museum ? — The land consists of 12 acres. 2941. How much of that is occupied by build- ings at the present time? — I should think that buildings extend over probably a fourth of that space ; that is, they occupy a fourth, indepen- dently of passages and spaces in front of them. 2942. Three acres out of the four? — Yes. 2943. You have nine acres then unoccupied? — More or less free ; there are buildings scattered about. 2944. How much of that land is going to be appropriated for any purposes in contemplation already? — I do not think that 12 acres more than would provide for the wants of the depart- ment of science and art. 2945. Do you think you would require all those 12 acres ? — I think very nearly. 2946. I suppose you mean ultimately, not im- mediately? — That altogether depends upon whe- ther Parliament is disposed to consider the various collections, such as the educational collection, the scholastic collection, the architectural cast collec- tion, as permanent institutions, and is prepared to vote funds for the buildings. 2947. For purposes of instruction, do you think that you would require the whole of those 12 acres? — I think for all the objects which at present the Science and Art Department is admi- nistering, the 12 acres will be required. 2948. Sir George Grey.~] When was that land acquired ? — It came legally into the possession of the public in the year 1858, I think. 2949. What was the price per acre ? — The price at which the Commissioners handed it over to the Government was 5,000/. an acre. 2950. The Government paid that for it? — Yes. 2951. Mr. Walpole.] A portion of it will be devoted at any rate temporarily for the Exhibition of 1862 ? — No ; other land adjacent. 2952. Independently of those 12 acres, is there any other land belonging to the South Kensington Museum ? — None belonging to the South Ken- sington Museum, but belonging to the Commis- sioners of 1851. 2953. Belonging to the Commissioners of 1851, what land is there over and above the 12 acres which you have been speaking of as belonging to the Kensington Museum ? — There is a portion of land which is called the Quadrangle ; it is bounded on the north by the Kensington-road, and it is divided on the east and west by roads, west by the road called Prince Albert's-road, on the east by a road called Exhibition road ; and on the south by Cromwell-road ; this quadrangle contains about 56 acres, I believe, all of which belong to the Com- missioners of 1851, excepting about three acres, I think, which belong to Lord Auckland. 2954. Is that private property ? — Those three acres belong to Lord Auckland. 2955. Then there are 53 acres included in the space which you have called the Quadrangle, be- longing to the Commissioners of 1851 ? — About that quantity. 2956. What price did they give for that land? — The Commissioners gave for 86 acres of land, including everything, 327,000/., I believe; the Committee will bear in mind that I have no authority to answer any questions for the Com- missioners of 1851, I am only giving the best in- formation that I happen to recollect. 2957. Is any part of that quadrangle built upon? — The Commissioners have leased to the A A Horticultural H. Cole, Esq., c.e. 9 July 1860. i86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 1 8(io. H. Cole, Horticultural Society a quantity of land nearly Esq., c. b. i n the centre of the quadrangle, consisting, I be- lieve, of 22 acres ; and the Commissioners have 9 July further entered into an engagement to allow, for .the purposes of the Exhibition of 1862, the use of 1 6 acres to the south of those 22 acres ; then they further agreed that if, after the closing of that exhibition, 10,000 1, shall be paid to them, they will reserve those 16 acres for the purposes of another Exhibition, if the public desire to have it in 1872. The 22 acres and the 16 acres make .38 acres, consequently the residue, the difference between that and the 53 acres, is now vacant at the disposal of the Commissioners. 2958. Deducting the three acres, belonging to Lord Auckland, that makes the difference between 38 acres and 53 acres, as belonging to the Com- missioners of 1851, still undisposed of? — Yes. 2959. What is the lease of that horticultural piece of land of 22 acres? — Definitely for 31 •years, prospectively for 31 years more, at a con- tingent rental, if they earn profits. 2960. For immediate purposes, supposing the nation should require any of this land at South Kensington, either for a British Museum or any other, the amount undisposed of is the difference between 38 and 53? — About 15 acres. 2961. Where would they be ? — Those would be about equally divided, on either side of the Horticultural Gardens abutting upon them to the west to Prince Albert's-road, and to the east to the Exhibition-road. 2962. Then these 15 acres are not contiguous ? — No ; they are on either side in pretty equal divisions, excepting Lord Auckland's bit, which takes out a run at the top on the east side. 2963. About seven acres on one side and eight acres on the other? — About that; perhaps nine on one side and six on the other. 2964. Mr. Tite.~\ Have you any plan of the land ? — Yes. 2965. Mr. Ayrton.~\ What is this society to which the 22 acres have been practically given away for 30 years ? — It is what is called the Hor- ticultural Society ; it is a sort of forefather to all the botanical societies in the country. 2966. Who are chiefly the subscribers to it ? — The public at large; their gardens are at Chis- wick, and, like all these societies, it has had its ups and downs. 2967. Can the public at large be properly called the subscribers to that society; are they not a certain class who live at the west end of London ? — Certainly not the inhabitants of that part of London ; I think if you went through the list of subscribers, you would find that part were metropolitan residents, and the other part residents all over the country. 2968. Chairman.'] As to the 12 acres of land, if you assign them altogether to the industrial purposes of the Museum, could you find space in those 12 acres if a large mediaeval art collection was to grow up, or to be removed there ? — Yes, I think so. 2969. Upon the whole, do you think it would be perfectly compatible with your educational purpose to have a complete museum of mediaeval art in conjunction with your Museum ? — I think .it would not be incompatible. 2970. I believe the great value of the Ken- sington collection arises from its circulation? — The Kensington collection is visited by an ave- rage of 500,000 persons in a year; you may take that as the metropolitan point of view. Then, in addition to that, whatever there is in the Ken- sington collection that is portable may be moved, and may be sent to any part of the country. In a minute recently passed, revising the system of circulation, it is stated as a fact, " That the travel- ling collection has been sent to 20 places in the United Kingdom ; that it has been visited by 306,987 persons, of whom a large number were students," who made 2,000 and more copies from the objects; "and that it has realised in fees, which have been received by the local authorities, upwards of 6,011 1. Is. 10 d. Although the most fragile articles, such as Sevres porcelain and glass, have been transmitted at least 3,690 miles by rail- way, &c, and been packed and unpacked 56 times, no specimens have been broken or damaged." 2971. Your collections of art, in fact, can be brought to the doors of persons who are unable to come to London ? — Yes. In the art schools our principle is to give a sort of right or privilege : it occasionally happens that we have applications from other institutions ; at the present time, from the Museum at Manchester, we have one ; . we have an art school at Manchester ; and the com- mittee of the Salford Museum at Peel Park, Manchester, have requested us to lend them a collection of objects, and we have done so. 2972. And I suppose you would apply the same principle to any of the collections that might be removed from the British Museum, as to those specimens which might be of use to the public ? — I think it is very much to be deplored that the trustees of the British Museum, although they have the power to sell and exchange, have not the power to lend ; I think that the success of the experiment which has been tried by the South Kensington Museum ought to be enlarged into a national action, so that any locality, where there might be a museum, and the local population, should have the benefit of anything that can be spared out of the national collections. At the present time, a local museum is in process of being raised atlslington; the parties are sanguine, and public spirited, and they are going to get 5,000 1, by voluntary donations, and if they succeed in that, their intention is to avail themselves largely of the circulating system at the South Kensington Museum ; the Same principle has been announced by Mr. Fairbairn, and the same thing has been talked about in the neighbourhood of Victoria Park; one or two clergymen there have talked about getting up an institution, and availing themselves of the objects circulating from the South Kensington Museum. 2973. Would it be a very great detriment to the medieval collection to be separated from the library at the British Museum? — It is very easy to find some microscopical links of connexion be- tween almost any two things, but I see none between them of importance. 2974. Is there not a large number of books re- quired for the proper illustration of the medieval collection ?— I believe that we have a far better library at the Kensington Museum for that pur- pose. 2975. Is there not a great connexion between them and the illuminated manuscripts ? — No ; if a young lady belonging to any illuminating society wanted to copy a manuscript, she would go where she could find it, and she would employ a whole day upon it; and if she were a great antiquarian, and she wanted SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 187 wanted to trace oui the lines of an object, she would go the next day somewhere else ; but as for her going up stairs, where the mediaeval col- lection is, and dowu stairs into the library, I think it is all fancy ; I never found anybody who did it, and I cannot conceive of anybody doing it. 2976. Have you greater facility for purchase at the South Kensington Museum than there is at the British Museum? — We have eminent facility which arises from the promptness of the adminis- tration. When any object is brought before us, we can at once apply to one single Parliamentary authority and there is an end of it ; therefore the thing is done very rapidly. 2977. Have you greater facilities for the ar- rangement of your collections ? Is that left altogether to the head of the department ? — It is entirely. 2978. Upon the whole, your evidence is this, that if Parliament sanctioned an extension of the buildings, you think a general mediaeval collection might be well combined with a special educational mediaeval collection at the Kensington Museum ? — Certainly ; I have no particular par- tiality for South Kensington ; I merely think that the nation should have a general mediaeval collection somewhere ; that is, from a national point of view ; it does not matter whether it is in London or in Birmingham from the circulating point of view. 2979. Mr. Ayrton.] What do you mean by a general mediaeval collection ? — I must again refer the Honourable Member to Mr. Hallam. I should make a collection that embraces all the kinds of objects which are enumerated in that inventory which I have handed in, and which objects, for the most part, are not found much before the fifth century, and which would come down, if you please, to the present time. 2980. You do not mean that the objects are not found before the fifth century ? — Yes ; they are not practically. 2981. Is there no sculpture, no glyptic and numismatic art before the fifth century 1- — At the time when the Iloman empire was invaded, their art was stopped, and it became more or less prac- tically a sort of barbaric cross between northern art and Koman polished art, and practically if you ask whether there are many objects between the fifth century and the eleventh century, that can be amassed, there are very few of that kind. 2982. Chairman.^ "Are you not aware that from the time of the irruption of the barbarians to the fifth century there are hardly any remains what- ever ? — I believe that is so. 2983. You do not attach any importance to the site at Kensington which the museum occupies ? — Yes ; I attach some importance to the public having a convenient access to South Kensington by railway. 2984. That is a prospective convenience ? — Yes ; but I attach great importance to that ; and I attach this other importance, I think it of great import- ance for the benefit of the masses, who have not carriages, when they come to this public museum that they have parks adjacent to it, and have a double attraction ; and when they get those Hor- ticultural Gardens, to which the. access will be, I have no doubt, on some days in the week, very reasonable indeed, I think they, will then, have got more occupation for a day's holiday than they will find -on any other site in London. 2985. Mr. AyrtonJ] Will you state to the Com- 0.96. j86o. mittee the grounds upon which you think the B Cole, situation of Kensington as convenient, or more ksq-» c.b. convenient than any other part of London, for the benefit of the inhabitants of the metropolis? — I 9_ u v should say, first, that from all parts of London, both north and east, omnibuses are constantly coming every five minutes, and steamers, within a mile to Chelsea pier, and the railway will bring the people to the doors. 2986. But that accommodation at present does not exist ? — But they will bring people, I think, to the doors in addition to the fine attraction of the site itself. 2987. You think, referring to the first ground, that any place on a line of omnibuses is equally convenient in London ? — Certainly. 2988. Do you think that the British Museum, if you take a radius of a mile will embrace an area, which includes nearly every railway station in London, and the great bulk of the population ? — I am afraid I cannot admit that the radius of a mile will embrace every railway station ; but I have no doubt that the British Museum will be eventually within a mile of a great many of the termini. I think a walk from a station at a mile distance would be inconvenient to a working man, if he wished to make a day's, or an after- noon's, or an evening's excursion. 2989. Is not the British Museum within a mile of the river ? — I think it is a little more ; but not much. 2990. With regard to the visitors to the South Kensington Museum in the afternoons of the ordi- nary days of the week, are you aware whether they are composed very largely of nursery gover- nesses and children from the neighbourhood? — No, I should not say very largely ; certainly, not exceeding the children and nursery governesses to be found elsewhere (I should say, as compared with the National Gallery); and,- as to nursery maids, Mr. Sheepshanks gave a practical proof of his feeling when he gave his pictures to the South Kensington Museum, because he thought the National Gallery was overrun Avith nursery maids and children. 2991. Have you taken a note of the fact, whether it is or not correct, that the Museum at Kensington is very much frequented by nursery maids and children from the neighbourhood? — The facts that we obtained, taking a certain num- ber of people, showed the contrary. 2992. When were they obtained ? — In the . autumn of last year, and they were laid before, the Committee on Public Institutions, and they showed that a very small proportion of the visitors resided within two miles of the Museum. 2993. I am speaking of those who frequent the Museum on other days than Monday, and during the afternoon? — I should say that in the afternoons a very great number of people come in carriages, a remarkable number come in car- riages ; on the evenings of Monday and Tuesday, I should say that the majority were certainly of the artisan class. 2994. Do you find any difficulty in opening the Museum in the evenings '? — No difficulty ; it is costly. 2995. What is the cost as compared with open- ing it in the day ? — We pay our attendants by the hour, and, therefore, for three or four hours at night, it is so much added to the day's wages that; we have to pay ; also for gas lighting, we use a great deal of gas ; our account is above 12 1, every A A 2 night, i88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE H. Cole, night, and we require to take very vigilant pre- Esq., c.b. cautions against fire, so that I cannot say, al- though a very convenient arrangement for num- 9 Jul y bers, that it is a very cheap one. i860. 2996. Are you aware how many people come at night, as compared with the daytime, even on Monday? — They are about half-and-half. 2997. Is it opened every night? — Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays; on Mondays it is open from 10 in the morning till 10 at night, without closing ; on Tuesdays and Wednesdays ; and on Wednesdays we impose a fee. 2998. How many people who visit it come on Monday as compared with the other days of the week ? — I think, throughout the year, the average number on Monday exceeds 3,300 persons. 2999. And how many on the other five days of the week? — On Tuesdays, 2,800; and then on Wednesdays, 550 ; Thursdays, 319 ; and Fridays, 327; the average is between 700 and 800; on Saturdays, 1,465. 3000. Do you take any means to ascertain whether the people who once visit the museum, visit it again ? — I have reason to think that they do, but I have no precise data upon that. 3001. Mr. Monckton Mihies.'] What are the reasons why the attention of the Board of the South Kensington Museum, and the Society of Arts in connexion with it, has been directed so especially to mediaeval art?— The Honourable Member, who was Chairman of the School of Design Committee for some years, will no doubt recollect that successive committees of the School of Design recommended that collections should be made of the various kinds of art likely to be use- ful in manufactures. For example, if you take pottery, that is likely to be most useful in manu- factures ; it is especially mediaeval pottery. You find Greek and Etruscan pottery, but it is all of one kind ; if you take the mediaeval pottery, you will have many kinds ; you will have majolicas and Palissy ; you have the French faience ; then you have porcelains of Dresden, Sevres, Vienna, and Berlin, &c, so that taking the point of view as to the utility of art, the collection has settled itself into mediaeval art. Furniture is another in- stance. 3002. When you say settled itself into mediae- val art, is there any reason for the exclusion of the classical element ? — None at all ; but we have always held that it would be unjustifiable for us to .be buying classical objects while the British Museum was buying them ; therefore, for that reason, we have avoided them if they were to be had ; but classical furniture is not to be had in great quantities. 3003. Supposing any considerable proportion of the collections of the British Museum were removed to the Kensington Museum, there is no reason why the latter museum should not extend itself to classical as well as to mediajval art ? — From the point of view of art none ; on the con- trary, it is rather desirable ; but, finding that the British Museum was very rich in classical mat- ters, it has been the aim of my department to avoid reduplicating the same things. 3004. Have you rather desired to supplement what might be deficient in the British Museum ? — Our object has been to purchase things that were likely to be useful to manufactures purely ; that has been the main point. 3005. Do you think that that end would be in any way frustrated by the transference to the Kensington Museum of the principal works of art from the British Museum, and combining classical and mediaeval art in one great Museum at South Kensington ? — No ; I think not ; I think that such an arrangement would be simple, and that the things would be much cleaner there. 3006. Is it within your experience that works of art deposited at the South Kensington Museum have, on the whole, gained by the comparative purity of the atmosphere ? — I have not the slightest doubt that pictures, as well as works of art, would be kept infinitely cleaner, and that they would therefore be less liable to pernicious influences at Kensington ; I would refer Honourable M embers to a report of Professor Farraday, Professor Hoff- man, Professor Tindal, Captain Fowke, and Mr. Redgrave, upon the subject of atmospheric and other influences upon certain delicate pigments; the report has been laid before Parliament, and it was quite clearly demonstrated that similar pigments having been exhibited in different parts of the metropolis, one set at the British Museum, one at the National Gallery, one in the Houses of Par- liament, one in the City, and two or three in Kensington, the Kensington specimens were found very clean, and the others, particularly those coming out of the City, were very dirty ; if you go to the British Museum, you will find that your shirt will become much dirtier than it would in Hyde Park. 3007. Is it an established fact that works of art, whether pictures or other things, can only be securely preserved by being placed under glass, if they are to remain in the great centres of London communication?— As to pictures, we have arrived at some very curious results at Kensington ; we find that the mere exhibition of pictures to great multitudes exposes them to accidents, which, but for our examination, would hardly be dreamed of. The public sneeze upon the pictures, and the saliva runs down on the pictures, and positively eats away the surface of them. One of the most valuable of Mr. Mulready's pictures was covered with the coughings and sneezings of the public looking close at the picture, and laughing in the presence of it. Before we found out that, we had great difficulty in preventing them expressing the emotions that they felt at looking at a picture, and they will touch it ; they say, " Look at that expression;" and the consequence is, that they scrape off a little bit of the pigment, particularly if it happens to be thick ; and we have come to the _ conclusion, from the point of view merely of exhibiting things, that pictures within reach must be put under glass. We have already the expe- rience that glass keeps pictures much cleaner. We all know that, though the public is gradually becoming very well behaved, and is well behaved, still they very much like to touch things. We had a little bit of sculpture of a Mother and Baby, and the baby excited the interest of all the mothers that came to the Museum; they were always measuring their babies by the side of it, and touching it, till it became quite grubby ; it hap- pened to be only a cast ; and precautions must be taken to prevent things being damaged. _ 3008. I believe there is at present a Committee sitting on the subject of the South Kensington Museum ? — Yes. 3009. Have you given evidence before that Committee 1 — Yes, I have. 3010. I will ask you whether or not the whole question of the extension of the South Kensington Museum, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 18 9 Museum, for the advantage of the public, depends upon the establishment being placed on a more solid and permanent basis than it is at present? — I believe that there are two questions to be dis- posed of by the Committee on the South Ken- sington Museum. The first is, is the South Kensington Museum an object of public utility ; then if it be, ought it not to be properly housed and extended? 3011. If it be decided that the buildings there are to be made of a more permanent and extensive character, you would see no objection to the transference to that locality of any portion of the present contents of the British Museum, if it should be thought advisable to remove them ? — I hardly know how to answer that question with great precision, but I should perhaps give the best answer by saying, that I think a national collection, of the same kinds of objects ought not to be in two places. I think that national collections in different parts of the metropolis are better than national collections all brought into one part of the metropolis ; but I think you have two points of view, one the national point of view for the whole country, and the other as serving the in- terests of the metropolis from various centres. 3012. Mr. Ayrton.~\ Can you point out in this classification any class that might be added to from the British Museum? — I think in the British Museum there are enamels, ivories, and pottery which had better be united with other national collections of the same objects ; perhaps some half dozen specimens of metal work besides. 3013. Mr. Tite.~] What extent of library have you at the South Kensington Museum? — There is one, almost exclusively an art library, con- sisting, I think, of between 7,000 and 8,000 vo- lumes. 3014. Do you know about how much that has cost ? — I will supply that answer accurately. It has cost about 9,000 /. 3015. Is there any regulation there as to the admission of children ? — The instructions to the attendants are, not to admit any children to the Museum apparently under 12 years of age, who are not accompanied by adults ; we do not object to babies, if they are carried. 3016. Mr. Puller.] Are the 12 acres which are now occupied by the Museum part of the 86 acres ? — Yes. 3017. There are 56 acres which constitute the quadrangle, and 12 acres are occupied by the Museum ? — Yes. 3018. That leaves 18 acres; what has become of them ? — The roads occupy, I think, nearly three acres ; the rest consists of outlying portions of land let on building leases. 3019. So that all that remains now is about 15 or 16 acres, about which there is a treaty with the Society of Arts, and the nine and six acres on each side of it ? — Yes. 3020. Those nine and six acres, I presume, will be in slips of land ? — Yes, from 150 to 200 feet in depth. 3021. Mr. Tite.~] On each side of the road?— Yes, roads on either side. _ 3022. Mr. Puller.] Are the 12 acres now occu- pied by the Museum the absolute property of the Government, or have the Commissioners any- thing to do with it ? — They have nothing to do with it ; it is the absolute property of the State, by Act of Parliament, so long as the State pleases to hold it. H. Cole, Esq,, C.X. 9 July 1860. Bichakd Westmacott, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 3023. Mr. Tite.] I believe you are a Koyal Academician ? — Yes. 3024. And Professor of Sculpture at the Royal Academy ? — Yes. 3025. You were a sculptor by profession? — Yes. 3026. You have given that up, I believe ? — Yes, I have, lately. 3027. In the British Museum, what functions do you discharge ; have you any appointment ? — Not a direct appointment, as one of the fixed officers of the establishment ; but I have been rather called in by the trustees to assist in super- intending all removals, and to take a general prac- tical care of the sculptures only. 3028. I believe Sir Eichard Westmacott, your father, held a distinct appointment ? — No, it was also a permitted appointment, because he was not on the staff of the Museum ; nor am I. 3029. Do you discharge the functions that he performed ? — Partially, I do, but not quite in the same manner. _ - 3030. Your position leads to your opinion being sought by the trustees on subjects connected with art generally, or is it with respect to any indi- vidual class of art? — Only as to that which I profess, sculpture. 3031. Are you well acquainted with the objects collected in the Museum of that nature ? — Yes, I think I am, especially with the Greek and Roman objects. I consider myself attached to 0.96. that department of antiquities; I consider myself subordinate to Mr. Hawkins, who is the head of the department. 3032. He has charge, also, of the medieval antiquities and coins ? — I believe entirely ; a very large range. 3033. With regard to your duties, do you ad- vise upon the placing of the masses of sculpture, or what are the general questions referred to you? — I have never had my opinion asked upon those subjects. 3034. Have you suggested any changes, for instance, as to the placing of those two figures which are seen at the entrance ; the Venus and the Discobolus of Myron on the opposite side to it ? — -With the Discobolus and the Venus I have had a great deal to do. 3035. Do you think that those objects are well displayed in the arrangement which now exists in the British Museum ? — I am sorry to say that I do not think they are at all well arranged or dis- posed ; but I do not attribute that to any fault of the officers, but from difficulties in having any- thing like a proper arrangement in that locality. 3036. You mean in that space ? — I mean that the galleries are not well adapted for such a clas- sification or arrangement as I think would be desirable. 3037. What is the extent of the classification ? — It is Aery mixed ; and to an archaeological B. Westmacott, Esq. now or chronological mind, I have no doubt a very A A 3 +- distressing igo MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE R. distressing one ; you go into the first room where Westmacott, there are Roman portraits, and from this into the - Esq. Grseco-Roman room, and you may then break off either into the Assyrian or the mixed collection of 9 Sfi^ the Townle y Sculptures, which I think is very 1 objectionable. It is very confusing. 3038. For the purposes of art, or for the pur- poses of education, you would desire another kind of arrangement ? — Yes. 3039. What arrangement would you suggest; a chronological arrangement, or in schools or classes? — I should very much prefer a chrono- logical arrangement generally. If it must be a classified collection according to schools, or of objects, no distinct or particular arrangement could be insisted upon. You must consider a collection of the kind formed for two distinct purposes ; the first I believe to be the preser- vation of a collection of valuable works of art ; and the next as an educational collection to teach people what is really beautiful, which is a very important branch of education ; and therefore as young artists must be provided for, in order that they may have an opportunity of studying from these works, a merely archaeological arrange- ment would interfere very much with the artistical arrangement that I might think the most desirable for them. 3040. Do you think that for the purposes of young students the kind of arrangement that is seen there is desirable, or that young men and women should be permitted to go in there and . draw as they do Avithout control ? — I think one great object must be educational ; but the way in which artists are admitted there I do not think does them much good. 3041. How would you propose to amend it ?— I have seen mere children there drawing ; and I am sure of this, that you ought to teach people to see, before you put them before works of art to copy from ; seeing is an art, and merely to put a person before an object of art, to copy it, without teaching him the principles of beauty, and why such and such an object is better than another is insufficient. I do not think you do that good to his mind or his eye that you would do if a proper system of advice and superintendence were adopted. 3042. Mr. Walpole.] Do you place the student there, or does not he rather place himself there? — It is permitted. 3043. Mr. Tite.] Could any modification be introduced so as to make it more useful, or by which there could be better control, or do you be- lieve that the drawing which goes on there is of any value at all ? — I do not say that it is of no value at all, but it is not made of that value that I think it should be, for if you admit a student to draw, it is by that fact made a place of educa- tion. 3044. Can you suggest any mode in which you think it might be made better ? — If it is ever assumed that the British Museum is to be a place of education, I think it might be very much im- proved by proper superintendence in that par- ticular branch. 3045. Would it require much expense ? — No. 3046. Mr. Ayrton.~\ Is it not competent now to any professor of art to go to the Museum, and instruct his pupils how to perceive beauty in objects? — The class of persons who go there are not often pupils of artists ; in my position there, I should not think myself justified in giving ad- vice to any student ; he might say I had no power there. 3047. But is it not competent to any professor of art to go there and instruct his own pupils ? — I conceive it is, but I do not know. 1 do not believe that there are any rules on the subject. I do not think that the head of the department would object to it; but it is not part of the system to have any instruction given there. 3048. I presume that the persons who go there are persons in all stages of knowledge, from the youngest to the most advanced ? — Anybody may go. 3049. But, practically, are they persons ranging from the youngest pupil up to the most advanced? — Yes; but many of them go in without the slightest elementary knowledge ; and I am ashamed of this, because foreigners go in there, and the elementary pupils are a very large class. 3050. Mr. Tite.'] You say that the present collection is arranged inconveniently and un- scientifically ? — I think it is. 3051. Have you any idea what additional space is required to arrange the collection pro- perly, according to your view ? — No, I have not measured it. 3052. Do you think that you would require double the space ? — Yes, I should think so. 3053. Have you any idea, supposing the pre- sent site to be retained, where that additional space could be more conveniently obtained? — No, I cannot give a decided opinion ; I have looked to the north and to the west, as both offering ground to make very valuable additions to the British Museum ; I see the space, and I think it is a matter that could be well covered by an architect ; I merely mean the space. 3054. Have you not seen any plan ? — No. 3055. Have you seen a plan called Mr. Old- field's plan ?— No. 3056. On the west ?— No. 3057. With regard to lighting the galleries, what is your opinion ; that they should be lighted from the floor always, or from high lights, or side lights, or in any other way ? — By high lights cer- tainly. 3058. In all cases ? — Yes, I think so ; usually, I should say, skylights, particularly in sculpture. 3059. Do you mean what we know as a lan- tern light, or a positively horizontal light? — I think the lantern light is a better thing, on account of its not getting clogged. 3060. As to the Elgin gallery, had you any- thing to do with the building of it, or the arrange- ment of it? — No. 3061. Or with the arrangement before it was built?— No. 3062. Had your father anything to do with it? — Yes. 3063. And with the Lycian room? — He had a great deal to do with that. 3064. Are you familiar with what was done then? — Yes, I know a good deal about it; I know that the room that was built for the Elgin marbles was found to be unfit for them, and that Sir Richard Westmacott declined to arrange them there ; the first room that they were in was a room that was built temporarily, and we all know that that was taken down of necessity \ then a second room was built by Sir Robert Smirke, which is now turned into the Egyptian room, and that was intended for the Elgin marbles. 3065. The great gallery ? — Yes, it breaks out in SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUivI. 191: in pilasters ; it was found by Sir Richard Westr macott that it was impossible to put the slabs of the frieze there without having to break them, that is, to break their continuity, and then it was tiiat a third room was built ; the largest room of the two present Elgin, rooms. 3066. What is the history of the Lycian room, about which there is a great difference of opinion ? — I am sorry to say that Sir Charles Fellows and Sir Richard Westmacott did not agree very well together as to that collection. I believe that Sir Charles Fellows, who found the Lycian marbles, felt thai he ought to have been consulted more in the arrangement than he was. 3067. Who advised as to the building of the room itself; it was a room that was enlarged, I think? — I do not remember that it was en- larged. 3068. Were the architect and Mr. Hawkins, the superintendent of the antiquities, put into com- munication, in order to consult together, and consider what would be best to be done, or was it all done by the architect ? — I cannot say whether Mr. Hawkins was consulted. 3069. Do you think that in all cases the gentle- man in charge of the department should be put into communication with the architect • — I think it is advisable. 3070. Do you think that the colour'of the walls is important ? — Yery important ; especially in this country. 3071. Who has the management of that in the Museum ? — I am sure I do not know. 3072. Have you been consulted upon that sub- ject? — Yes. 3073. Has your advice been followed ? — No. 307-i. I apprehend, that in the arrangement of any of the antiquities, you never venture yourself to encourage anything like what is called restora- tion ; you simply have the putting of masses to- gether ; you do not supply anything in plaster ? — No. I am very much opposed to modern restora- tions, but we must do it, partially, sometimes. Suppose, for example, we found an advanced por- tion of the leg, a knee, which we found to belong to a figure, and no intermediate part ; I should recommend to Mr. Hawkins to have the interme- diate part put in, but to be distinctly characterised as an intermediate portion ; not taking the pre- cise form of the original, not shamming or affect- ing to copy the original. In those that I have so treated, I have generally kept them a little below the surface ; there is a specimen now. We have been trying to restore a fragment found in the Elgin room, and I think we have succeeded. Mr. Lloyd has shown great ingenuity in this, and we have nearly satisfied ourselves that a por- tion of a thigh belongs to a particular figure ; but there was so large a space between the two parts, that I could not satisfy myself that the length was right ; but we have now filled in the intermediate space, and the portion filled in is about the eighth of an inch lower than the original surface of the original Greek statue. 3075. There is a long line of busts in the Ro- man room, on a certain series of pedestals of red- dish English marblej whose suggestion was that ? — I do not know. 3076. Had you anything to do with it? — No. 3077. Did you approve of it ? — No. 3078. Can you help us to any broad classifi- cation of mediaeval, or classical, or Christian art ? — I do not know anything imore difficult than to 0.96. define accurately mediaeval art; but in my own R. mind, I class its commencement about the time of Westmacott-, Constantine. Esq. 3079. Classical art then broke down, did it not ? — It had broken down long before ; but about 9 Ju ^J that time you get a new class of art altogether, l8{ *°* where it is original. The Romans made sham statues, after the Greeks, but I put them aside ; I mean that original medieval art assumes a form at about that time, and it continued down to the fifteenth century. 3080. Then it is a little connected with Christian art? — I think that wherever you can find anything that appears to define the existence of Christianity in art, even where the ancient forms and the Roman forms have been adopted, it would legitimately fall into the class of mediaeval art. I think that is a good line of distinction. 3081. Sir George Grey.~\ Would the arrange- ment that you proposed involve a very extensive disturbance of the existing arrangements in the British Museum?— Yes, it would; but I ought to have said before, that I think there must be a double arrangement, to a certain extent. I think that in a museum like a national museum, we must have, to a certain extent, a chronological arrangement. Many persons go there who are artists and scholars, and their taste and know- ledge are offended by seeing anomalies; but as we want to educate public taste, it would be an advantage to have certain fine works in an at- tainable position, without having to trace them all through the schools which have led to them. 3082. Would your arrangement involve the removal of some of the largest specimens from the positions which they at present occupy in the building, and could that be done without risk of injury ? — I think so ; it is a question of care ; I have no apprehension in moving the greatest bodies, but it is attended with expense, and takes time. 3083. What additional space would be required to carry that arrangement fully into effect ? — I have been asked whether I thought twice as much space would be required; I think it would be very nearly twice as much; as much again, I mean. 3084. Do you think that additional space would be required for the classification of the sculpture and the works of art now in the British Museum ? — Yes ; I assume that you mean the Assyrian and the Egyptian, and the whole class of sculp- ture. 3085. Mr. Walpole.] Where would you put the collections from Budrum and Cnidos ? — I should put them immediately after the Phidian period; indeed Phidias and Scopas, who executed some of those, were contemporary, and I should make them follow in that order. 3086. Having regard to the present arrange- ment in the British Museum, what would you do to find accommodation for those works of art which are now under glass in the portico ? — If ground could be procured, I should extend them on the ground-floor, either to the west or to the north. 3087. Chairman.] Referring to what you have said about the Museum, you have expressed your- self in favour of a chronological arrangement, and also an artistic arrangement; which is the most important subject, considering the scope of the British Museum, the artistic or the chronological arrangement ? — I do not think that one should be a a 4 made 102 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE R. Wtstmacott, Esq. 9 July i860. made subservient to the other ; I think that both are important ; and as you cannot carry out either in its entirety, with an archaeologist and an artist together, I think such an arrangement could be made as would not offend good taste, and at the same time be useful to the art student. 3088. Io the main object of the British Mu- seum, do you think, for educational purposes ? — The first object of the British Museum is the pre- servation of valuable remains of antiquity ; all the others arise out of that, and having the contents, I would make them educational. 3089. That being the case, I presume the ob- ject that you would wish to arrive at, would be a scientific exhibition of the collections in the Museum rather than an exhibition for the purpose of instructing persons in design? — I think so. 3090. Under those circumstances, if you wished to have a real chronological and scientific exhibi- tion, how far do you think that could be obtained by beginning at the earliest period of art, and advancing to the culminating period,that of Pericles, and then descending from the culminating period till you reached the lowest period of Roman art ; would that be a scientific arrangement? — Of one particular series it would be, beginning with the Archaic Greek ; and putting aside the Egyptian and Assyrian. 3091. I mean commencing with the earliest art known, the Egyptian, would you advance into the Assyrian, and from the Assyrian to the Lycian, and Greek, and Roman? — I do not see any decided connexion between the two or the three or four; I will not say four, for I think Roman art grew out of Greek art ; but I do not know of any necessary connexion between Assy- rian and Roman. For instance, I think that the Assyrian was influenced, as we see, by Egyptian art; then there is Persian, which was also affected by other art ; but I must claim a dis- tinction for Greek art ; I think there is something so purely characteristic in it. 3092. Is it not a moot point whether Greek art did not take its origin from Assyrian art or Egyptian art ? — I will not believe it did from either One or the other. 3093. That it was not influenced by either ? — Influenced it was ; but not originated by it. 3094. "Would it be desirable for the student to have the influence of either Assyrian or Egyptian art exemplified ? — Yes, for the student in archae- ology. 3095. Therefore, do not you think it would be advisable to have those collections arranged in parallel galleries, so far as it was possible, so that the student in archaeology might pass in from one gallery to the other, and compare one work of art with another ? — Certainly, in a way easily to compare them. 3096. Then, whatever arrangement would ob- tain that parallelism of galleries best, and in the most complete manner without breaks, would, I presume, be the best arrangement for exhibiting those archaeological collections ? — I think so. 3097. With reference to what you have stated, with regard to the Budrum collections of Mr. Newton, I presume you would wish to keep the works of Phidias completely by themselves? — Yes, the Parthenon works. 3098. It would be desirable to have the works of Scopas in almost immediate juxtaposition with the works of Phidias, although not in the same room, that you might perceive the difference which had accrued between the periods of the two ? — It would be very desirable, I think; and theu we should necessarily associate the Phygalian collec- tion with the time of Phidias, though distinct from the Elgin room. I should like to have the Parthenon Marbles kept quite distinct; I think an arrangement might be made by which the pediment and frieze of the Parthenon might all be well seen, and have their special characters, in one room. 3099. You would wish, I suppose, that the collections of sculpture and the bas-reliefs should be exhibited under a top light ? — Yes. 3100. Do you attach importance to that ? — Yes; I know that the frieze of the Parthenon never had a top light ; it was only lighted from the floor ; but that is a very distinct thing from having a series of works exhibited in a Museum ; I should recommend a high light. 3101. Could you find in the Museum any trans- verse walls where you could exhibit long series of bas-relief, much of the importance of which is derived from their continuity? — That is very important. 3102. Could you obtain sufficient space on these transverse walls to exhibit those bas-reliefs with a side light ? — No. 3103. To have the whole properly exhibited it would be necessary, would it not, to have a top light ? — Yes, I think so, and a room adapted for them. 3104. Do you think, as a rule, that galleries should be suited to the collections, rather than the collections suited to the galleries ?— Certainly. 3105. With regard to mediaeval art, you seemed, I think, to express an opinion that the line might be drawn about the time of Constantine ?— I should say so ; that is the line I have allowed to myself; I think that for 200 or 300 years before art had been degraded very much, and it then began_ to assume a character of its own exceed- ingly interesting, but it never arrived at fine art ; it became totally distinct art, very valuable and very beautiful, but as distinct from real Greek art as anything could be ; it was utter degradation in what artists know by the term style. 3106. What is your opinion as to the value of retaining the mediaeval collections in the British Museum ?— If the collections could be made ex- tensive enough, I should, for a great national col- lection, be glad to see everything there connected With art, but it is limited. 3107. Is it proper that it should be so limited? — No, certainly not. # 3108. Would you wish to see it considerably increased and to assume larger proportions? Yes, and to have a character of its own ; but it has never occurred to me to have a great mixture there, which my friend Mr. Cole is so proud of in ins own museum. 3109. Mr. Tite.-] Would you Hke to see the mediaeval art collection, so far as it goes, in the British Museum, separated from the rest of the collection, and sent somewhere else ? -I am so attached to the British Museum that I do not Hke to agree to anything being sent elsewhere ; but, certainly, if our collection of mediaeval art is to be kept so small as it is, it is not sufficient for illus- trative purposes. 3110. Chairman.'] Then you would keep every- thing SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. *93 thing in the shape of mediaeval art in the British Museum ?— Yes. 3111. Is it your impression that those mediaeval collections in the British Museum are made for artistic purposes alone ? — No ; I think in the British Museum, they are part of a series, show- ing the progress of the human mind at different periods ; but we never dream of sending students of fine art to study them ; and I am afraid I may lay myself open to some remark for saying that. I doubt very much whether this passion for mediaeval art is not calculated to deteriorate fine taste very much ; there is such a fashion for majolicas and mediaeval art, that all the young ladies and gentlemen in the world are running after these things, and yet they do not go to see those mag- nificent works of the Periclean period, and the time of Phidias and his scholars. Those are the things upon which fine taste and knowledge of form must be grounded, so far as the principles of beauty are concerned. The others teach nothing ; it is merely decorative art. 3112. Mr. Ayrton.] The conirast is very great in this building between the statues in the hall and the stone images put about the buildings ? — They are all costume statues. 3113. You stated that you considered the chief purpose of the Museum was to preserve objects of antiquity ? — Yes. 3114. Where do you consider that antiquity ends in that sense ? — I think it ends early in the Boman empire ; but I think the British Museum contains, far beyond any other museum in the world, the means of reading a lesson in history and art. I think that a few hours study there, with a competent person, would teach anybody who de- sired to know it, the history and the progress of art, and therefore, of the human mind, and a great deal of the poetry of mythology, and even the social history of mankind may be taught there, in certain works that illustrate manners and customs. "We also have works of which no other collection can boast in the fact of their authenticity. Almost all other fine works, in the Vatican and other collec- tions which I know, are presumed to be copies from ancient originals ; but in the British Museum there is not the slightest doubt that we have the bond fide works of Phidias and of his school. In the other collections we also have certain works that we can without any doubt attribute to their authors, as in the Halicarnassian collection. There is one bronze (a small bronze) of Hercules, hold- ing three apples in his hand, which is conjectured to be by Lysippus ; but the others we know are certainly the original works of those particular masters, and I think we ought to be very proud of the collection. 3115. You would not introduce into the Mu- seum works of art, after the revival of art ? — I confess that I do not care about it ; it is not high enough. 3116. You would exclude all objects of a mo- dern character from the exhibition of sculpture ? — Yes ; as far as mixing them up with the others, I would. 3117. Is it desirable to have fine works of art of a modern period, after the revival of art ? — No. 3118. Mr. Puller.] Is it not desirable to .have the statues of Michael Angelo ? — No. 3119. Mr. Ayrton.] Have you any supervision over the selection of small works of art, such as bronzes ?— I have no power to do anything ; I see that the things are kept clean, and that they are not broken, or injured in the process. ' 3120. Are you consulted in the purchase of small works of art ? — No. 3121. Is it desirable that those objects should be continued down to the present time, or should they also cease with the decline of art ? — I think that a collection of sculpture for the improvement of the taste of the public may stop far short of the present time. 3122. Where would you stop in the exhibition of bronzes and small objects of art ? — When Boman art is found to become very degraded, and dying out, which it did, I should then stop ; that is, at the end of one series; but I should make the Boman collection a distinct collection. There is a tran- sition period, when, after the fall of Greece, many Greek artists settled in Rome, and some very fine works were produced in the time of Adrian ; but after all they have that great drawback, of not being the real emanation of the Greek mind, and they become market works, not made for the value of the art, but for collections. 3123. Mr. Puller.] You spoke of artistic arrange- ment, what idea had you in your mind ? — As stu- dents are admitted to draw there, and as a vast number of j^eople go there to see works of art, the value of such works in teaching the principles of beauty might be very much increased if a selection of the finest things could be made, and so arranged as to be always easily accessible. 3124. You would have one- gallery in which the finest works of art should be picked out from the different schools and brought together ? — Yes. B. Westmaeottf Esq. 9 July i860. Chaeles Thomas Newton, Esq., called in ; and Examined. 3125. Chairman.] You were an assistant some time ago at the British Museum ?— Yes; between 1840 and 1852. 3126. Since that time you have been Yice Con- sul at Mytilene, and Consul at Borne'? — Yes; since that time. 3127. While you were in the Levant, you were on two occasions detached on special services by the Museum? — By the Foreign Office, in con- nexion with the Museutfl ; one of those services being the Budrum expedition; and the other, the valuation of the Campana collection at Borne. 3128. Have you visited most of the European collections ? — Yes ; I have. 3129. I believe you have made archaeology your study, with special reference to art? — Yes, I 0.96. have studied it for about 20 years, specially with reference to the history of art. 3130. Will you give the Committee your opi- nion of the state of the department of antiquities in the British Museum, with regard to its arrange- ment and the accommodation? — Taking the lower floor first, which contains the sculpture, I should say that the rooms are, some of them, fairly arranged, and others provisionally arranged ; but the whole impression produced is not s6 satis- factory as I could wish. I am speaking now with reference to the ensemble presented by the Egyp- tian room, the Assyrian rooms, the Roman gal- lery, and other sculptures at the entrance, and those rooms may be added which are on the base- ment connected with the same. If the Committee B b wish C.T, Newton,, Esq. *94 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE C. T. wish me to take the rooms seriatim, one by one, JWviton, Esq. I can give them in a few words my notions about each of them. At the entrance you j)ass into a 9 J u 'y long and rather dark gallery with Roman busts, i860. -which is not a particularly instructive arrange- ment. Then you pass into a central saloon, where you find sculpture of the Grseco-Roman periods, but immediately in juxta- position with the As- syrian remains; this I should suppose is a provi- sional arrangement ; but nothing can be more un- fortunate than to bring together two styles so opposed, and the impression produced on the mind of the visitor, whether as to Assyrian art, or as to Graeco-Roman art is a mixed one, and such mixed impressions are undesirable: With regard to the two rooms which contain the Egyptian antiquities, that is to say the gallery made up of two rooms, I think it is a little too crowded for such a gallery of sculpture: but I have no particular fault to find with it ; I should have preferred to have seen the sculpture in greater length, but it being there, I think that its arrangement should not now be disturbed. With regard to the As- Syrian remains, I was present at the examination of Mr. Layard the other day, and I heard him say that there was a want of chronological se- quence in the present arrangement of this sculp- ture, and I think on the whole it is desirable that they should follow in a complete chronological sequence if that is thoroughly ascertained. I am not, however, prepared to say that it is a matter of very great consequence whether you placed sculptures from Khorsabad at one end of the room, and those from Koyujik at another ; on the other hand, I think it is a matter of very great consequence that the whole Assyrian collections should be together, so that you should not have to cross the Roman or the Egyptian room to pass from one part of these collections to another. The two rooms which now contain the Elgin marbles are not on the whole satisfactory to me ; I think that the pedimental figures, while they are of surpassing interest, are somewhat sac- rificed, because it is impossible in the present arrangement for the spectator to retire far enough back to embrace the pedimental composi-, tion as a whole. I certainly think that the whole' arrangement could be much improved ; I should say, that in any plan whatever, for the improve- ment of the Museum, something more should be done for the Elgin marbles ; they are objects of such importance, that there is no amount of money or pains that we can bestow upon their arrange- ment that would be too much. At the side of the first Egyptian room is the Phygalian room, as it is called, containing the Phygalian frieze, and a number of odds and ends of various kinds.' I do not know that I need notice any other room ; there is one down stairs, containing inferior Roman sculptures, which is very well, as far as it goes ; there is also what is called the Sepulchral Room, which, I think, is a very inconvenient room in many ways. Then, referring to the collections which are not as yet housed, there are the marbles which I sent over from Budrum, from Cnidus, and from Branchidae, which require proper arrange- I would also, while speaking of the marbles in the British Museum, mention that we have there a most remarkable collection which ought to be one of the features of such a museum, but which is no feature at all from the manner it is scat- tered about, and that is the collection of Greek inscriptions. Having devoted some years to the exclusive study of those Greek inscriptions, I say with confidence, that the collection of Greek in- scriptions in the British Museum is finer than any I know of in any museum in Europe. At pre- sent, however, it is, as it were, latent in the Museum; a portion of it was brought over by Lord Elgin, and is scattered about partly in the Elgin room and elsewhere ; I contributed, I think, about 120 Greek inscriptions, which are chiefly under the glass shed in the entrance. These, combined with the Elgin collection, and the pre- vious collection, embraces the whole history of Palaeography, from perhaps the sixth century before Christ down to the time of Constantine. I think that that magnificent collection of in- scribed monuments ought to have a distinct place, and be a feature in the Museum. I have here a copy of a letter (the same being handed in. Vide Appendix), that I addressed to the trus- tees of the British Museum last year, in which I stated what I considered would be the best way of incorporating the accessions from Budrum and Cnidus with the existing collections. I have made a rough calculation; of the space which would be required for the due exhibition of those monu- ments, in connexion with the previous sculpture and inscriptions^ but without determining the ex- act locality where they should be placed. 3131. Mr. Walpole.'] What space do you think it would require? — Taking the marbles from Halicarnassus, from Cnidus, and from Branchidaj, incorporating them in what I should consider to be their places in historical order, I find that there would be required for the whole suite of galleries 930 feet ; I am speaking now of the Greek and Roman galleries only ; I do not enter into a calculation of the Egyptian and Assyrian. 3132. But as to those collections which you have sent over, what space do you think would be required for them? — I have proposed an Archaic room in the centre, where I would put the Harpy's Tomb, which is now in the Lycian room, and I would combine with that, the 12 statues from the Sacred Way at Branchidas, these being from the same part of Asia Minor, and with these I would place a few other Archaic sculptures now in the Museum ; that room I have calculated at 50 feet in length, and the general width is 40 feet, by a height of 30. 3133. To be lighted from the top ?— I think, on the whole, lighting from the top is better ; at the same time, I have seen rooms in Rome, such as at the Lateran, in which there was excellent light from high lights at the side'; but in an English climate, I think lighting from the top is preferable. Then I have asked for 120 feet in length, for the room to contain the sculptures from Halicar- nassus. 3134. The Budrum sculptures? — Yes; with a height of from 33 to 35 feet. It must be remem- bered that the colossal horse must be raised a con- siderable height; then I have a room which I call _ the Lion Room ; that I conceive should make a distinct feature in the collection ; I think it would be necessary that it should be in a room not less than 70 feet long. I think that colossal sculpture should be viewed from as great a distance as is practicable ; I found, on discovering this lion, that viewed at a distance in the open air, it looked infinitely finer than it has ever done since. 3135. Could you make use of that room for any other purpose ?— Yes ; I would put many other things in it ; I would propose to put in the Lion Room, a number of other statues which have been brought to England at different times from Greek localities, SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 195 localities, and as to which there is every evidence, I think, to lead one to suppose that they are Greek, rather than Roman ; of these there are several from Cnidus, a seated figure of Ceres, with an exceedingly beautiful head, a small sta- tuette of Proserpine, which is a most rare repre- sentation ; and a standing figure of Ceres ; these all come from one temple at Cnidus, and are com- bined with a number of the most curious objects, and I think they are of very high interest. Then there is also' from Cnidus a statue of Ceres, from the tomb of a certain Greek ; it appears that it was a statue decreed by the people of Cnidus to this man ; the inscription being in Greek, I think we may fairly call it a Greek statue, though of the Roman period, coming from a Greek city. There are several other statues which I collected at various times from the Western. Coast of Asia Minor, and the Greek Islands ; they are, perhaps, some of them, somewhat mutilated ; but when it is remembered that they are the first specimens, almost, that have been seen from those localities they form a nucleus to which we are very likely to add ; and therefore I would put them all in the lion room. 3136. Those are the three rooms that you want 9 —Yes. 3137. Do you want another for your collec- tions ? — No. 3138. You conceive that those three rooms which you have mentioned, would be sufficient for all the collections that you have made ? — For the sculpture ; not for the inscriptions. 3139. In your own view of the case, where would you think that those rooms might best be found, for exhibiting those collections of marbles which you have sent over to this country ; con- sidering the limited means in that locality, as to space, which do you think would be the best ar- rangement, on the supposition that space is added to the Museum, in the immediate neighbourhood, by purchasing either to the north, or to the west, or the east ? — I should say that it would be desir- able that these new accessions should be in imme- diate juxtaposition with the marbles of the Par- thenon, and with the Elgin room, wherever you place that ; I think it is very desirable that the work of Scopas should be separated from the works of Phidias, but in immediate juxtaposition. 3140. Chairman.'] I. think you have laid down in your letter to Mr. Panizzi, that juxtaposition in any future plan of exhibition was a pre-eminent and indispensable condition? — Do you mean the juxtaposition of single objects or of styles ? 3141. No; the juxtaposition of the different collections of antiquity ? — I think that the juxta- position of styles succeeding each other historically is of very great value, as , it suggests com- parisons. 3142. I think you also made use of the ex- pression that juxtaposition enables a spectator to have a convenient and ready means of com- parison by the eye 1 — Yes. «, 3143. Then you proposed, I think, that your own collections should be arranged in historical order ; I presume you attach value to that mode of arrangement '! — Yes ; I should say that in the arrangement of a museum generally, the historical order, that being the order in which the things were produced as phenomena, should.be the para- mount one ; but I would not affirm that any one principle of arrangement is to be absolutely carried out to the exclusion of every other ; a great and 0.96. paramount principle is constantly broken in upon -, „ by other considerations. ,. ,' ' r oi,j t • o ,i r.euiton.t&q, di44. 1 suppose in any re-arrangement of the antiquities in the British Museum, you would „ j u i y attach considerable importance to this, that the 1860. arrangement should be on a scientific plan ? — Cer- tainly. 3145. You have referred to the rooms on the basement; would you be disposed in any re-arrange- ment of the British Museum, if space could "be found, to have the collections in the basement all on the same floor, instead of on different floors ? — I think there is an inconvenience in going up and down in that way ; but I am not prepared to say that if there was no other change, it is ne- cessary to put them all on the same floor. I think it is better, but this is a question of conve- nience and expense. 3146. I believe there is a collection of mosaics in the basement ? — Yes ; I sent over a very large quantity myself, and there are very much finer mosaics from Carthage ; altogether they form one of the finest collections that I have seen in Eu- rope ; I think that that should be a distinct feature again.. < 3147. Therefore it would require space? — Yes. 3148. Sir George Grey.] What amount of space? —I am not prepared to make a calculation of that ; it would depend upon whether you would have the mosaics on the walls or on the floor ; it is not the practice in Rome to place the mosaics on the Walls ; but I think that placing them on the floors involves the sacrifice of much greater space. 3149. Chairman.] Will you inform the Corn^ mittee what additional accommodation is likely to be required in the Museum, and for what branches of antiquities which you think are likely to come in hereafter ? — That is a very difficult question to answer. Of course, I think we may affirm that there are certain branches which are 'more likely to be increased than others ; for instance, it is now shown that the cities of Asia Minor contain a great deal of sculpture, not to mention the quantities which might still be obtained from Assyria. I think that there is a fair and reasonable prospect that further excavations in Asia Minor and the Archipelago, and in the Cyrenaica on the northern coast of Africa, would give us more sculpture of a fine period ; but still these accessions come in at long intervals; indeed, taking the statistics of discovery from the time of Winckelmann to the present day, little fine sculpture has been added to museums except what we have obtained for England from the Levant, and such statues as have been found in Italy, of which very few are allowed to leave that country. There is a class of antiquities for which, 1 think, you would do well to provide a very liberal amount of space, and that is ancient vases. It is now established as a matter of fact, that, wherever the Greeks had colonies, they, of course, had cemeteries, and in those places of interment they placed fictile vases. I have suc- ceeded in tracing out these fictile vases all through the Archipelago, and on the coast of Asia Minor they have been found in great quantities, in the Crimea also, and in the Cyrenaica, on the coast of Africa. The British Museum is certainly rich in its collection of vases, not only from Italy, but, geographically speaking, right through the Me- diterranean ; and as we have now got so far to- wards having the best collection in the world, I think it is desirable that we should be liberal B b 2 in ig6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE C.T, Newton, Esq. 9 July i860. in the purchase of vases. I think the Greek cemeteries are so likely to be discovered now, that we may anticipate having some large ac- cessions from them. In seven years, in the Le- vant, I only sent home some four or five bronzes. In the same space of time I was the means of ac- quiring a very considerable number of vases. There is no other class that occurs to me, except terra cottas ; they may be found in any quantity ; I found about 1,100 in one field ; but they occupy so little space, that I think sculpture and vases are more the classes of which you may anticipate great accessions. 3150. I think that you also laid down, in your letter to Mr. Panizri in 1857, that it was advisable that small miscellaneous objects of antiquity should be arranged so as to be consulted in connexion with the large ? — Certainly. 3151. For instance, as to Egyptian antiquities, that the small figures in which types of the larger sculptures are repeated in bronze, alabaster, and p )reelain, should be in such a position that you could compare them with colossal statues ? — I think they should be in the same Museum ; whether on the same floor I cannot say. 3152. "Would it be advisable that they should be in proximity to each other, so that the student might have an easy mode of reference and com- parison ?- j -I do not think it a matter of any consequence, whether they are on the upper floor or the lower floor ; a person really studying art would not find it any trouble to go up-stairs. 3153. I think you have written two letters to Mr. Panizzi, one in 1857, and another in this year, upon the subject of the separation of the mediaeval collections from the British Museum ? — Yes, I have. 3154. I think that the object and purport of the first letter was this, that you would combine the collections of mediasval art with a picture gal- lery, which you were then under the impression was about to be constructed ? — I think that a museum of Christian art would derive increased dignity from being combined with a gallery of paintings as the highestt exponent of that art ; I do not think it absolutely necessary, but supposing everything to be shifted, and to be put into a new museum, it is desirable, I think. This arrange- ment has been followed at the Louvre, and I think that the juxtaposition of the two is a suggestive one. 3155. Your opinion is, that mediasval art is to the pictures of the middle ages what coins and bronzes are to the classical and antecedent periods ? — Yes; objects of decorative art are explained and illustrated by great objects of monumental avt, and they in their turn illustrate many points in the greater art. 'i!56. At the time you contemplated a gallery of pictures, did you then contemplate that it should be a great edifice, like the Louvre, em- bracing all objects of art ? — I think, at the outset of that letter, I say that, supposing everything, was to be begun de novo, that was the greatest idea, looking at it in a national point of view, to have one great building, containing all art, and in a style of architecture declaratory of its purpose. I do not think that the thing is absolutely necessary, for I believe if you have a. museum of Christian art here, and a museum of Pagan art there, and a gallery of pictures in another place, that you may have a very satisfactory division of the subject, provided that you do not let one great impression interfere with another. 3157. Inasmuch as that gallery has not been built which you then contemplated, would you still be of opinion that it is advisable to remove the collections of mediaeval art which are now in the British Museum elsewhere? — Yes, I think so. 3158. I think you have expressed your sur- prise at the sanction given by the Government to two similar, not to say rival, museums of art? — Coming from another country, and not knowing what had gone before, and finding two museums which I should consider very homogeneous, form- ing at the same time, I did feel great surprise and some regret. 3159. You found that in two museums pre- cisely the same process was going on ; that they were collecting mediaeval and renaissance antiqui- ties, such as enamels, majolicas, and, as it were, competing with each other ? — Yes ; I do not say actually competing with each other, but creating confusion in the public mind, I should say. 3160. Do you think that those two museums, > although jaot theoretically competing, yet prac- tically do compete with each other ? — I think that practically they compete for public favour, and that practically they would compete before the House of Commons for public grants ; there would be a South Kensington party and a British Museum party ; and I think there is another evil, in having two museums, and that is, that you weaken your staff by having one keeper in one place, and another in another place, who ought to be consulting with and supporting each other ; it is of great importance to the keeper of a depart- ment to have two or three assistants, whose judg- ment he can turn to in a matter of doubt, anl it is constantly a matter of doubt, whether a thing is true or false ; lastly, I think that you weaken the impression on the mind by having things in two places, which put together would produce a stronger impression. 3161. Sir George Grey.] Things of the same character ? — Yes ; on Saturday I looked over the mediaeval collection in the British Museum, where I saw ivories and majolica ware ; enamels and other glass objects ; I then walked to the South Kensington Museum; I considered myself as a visitor, wishing to learn something about mediasval art, and I there found the same class of objects repeated; I confess that I can see between the two selections no distinction such as the public mind would seize ; I think that people would have an idea that, for some reason or other, the Govern- ment had thought proper to exhibit a portion of the collection in one place, and a portion in another, and there is the same anomaly at Paris ; they had for a long time a portion of the ancient museum at the Louvre, and a portion at the Bibliotheque to the great inconvenience of archaeo- logists. 3102. Chairman.] There is now also a portion of the mediasval collections at the Hotel de Cluny, and a portion of them at the Louvre ? — I believe so. 3163. Referring to the objects that you saw in the two Museums, the British Museum and the South Kensington Museum, did it strike you that there were many objects in the British Museum that would gladly be received by the Kensington Museum for the purpose of that Mu- seum; and that there were objects in the Ken- sington Museum that the 'British Museum might SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 197 be prepared to receive, for its purpose? — I am not quite clear as to what you would consider the objects of the Kensington Museum ; do you mean that its exclusive object is the teaching the history of art by the exhibition specimens, with special reference to the improvement of our manu- factures, or is this latter object the only thing sought for. 3164. Teaching that and not anything more ; I merely speak at present of the ornamental mediaeval collection ? — Then I should say, if you will give me a class of mechanics to lecture to, and let me pick out specimens from the collection in the British Museum, I think that I could teach them" from these ; I do not say that the similar specimens are not better for that purpose ; I think that many of them would be highly in- structive to the class of persons that are taught at Kensington in that way think that 3165. Do if free latitude had specimens of medieval you been given to buying art in the British Museum, the assistant connected with the department of mediaeval antiquities would not have purchased many objects which are in the Kensington Museum now ? — I cannot tell what private arrangements the two keepers may have . made on that subject ; but I think he would, because I think the line that is attempted to be drawn is too fine for practice. 3166. Did it appear to you, that there were objects in the British Museum which would be advantageous to the Kensington Museum, .con- sidering the scope of that museum ? — Yes. 3167. On the other hand, do you not think that there are many objects in the Kensington Mu- seum which the gentleman in connexion with the mediaeval department in the British Museum would have gladly purchased, if he had had the opportunity of doing so ? — I should think so. I consider that there are many objects in those two museums which are interchangeable objects. 3168. Can you give any examples?- — They are two collections which I have not seen half a dozen times in my life, but I can give examples of classes. I think, for example, that you might have taken the enamels from one collection and put them in the other series, and in another case, I think you might take the majolicas from the one and put them in the other series, or the glass from one, and put it in the other series. 3169. Judging from your inspection of the two museums, do you think it possible accurately to define the exact province of each ? — I do not think it is- I think that any such attempt would end in confusion, and give a great deal of trouble to the officers, and that it would be defeated by the curious perversity of testators. Some persons have a fancy for leaving things to the British Museum, and other persons have a fancy for leaving them to the South Kensington Museum ; great bequests which ought to go to the South Kensington Museum would be left to the British Museum, and vice versa, so that the collections would in this way get lopsided. If, on the other hand, it is once laid down as a rule that certain kinds of antiquities are not received at the British Museum at all, I suppose it is to be presumed that no persons would make bequests of such objects to that institution. 3170. Which do you think persons are most likely to do; to make bequests to one large museum of mediaeval art, containing the combined specimens of both museums, or to museums divided, such as we have them at present? — I 0.96. should say that the larger and more comprehensive the plan of your museum is, the more likely you are to have fine bequests, considering the amount of beautiful mediaeval things in this country in private hands. 3171. Do you believe that if there was a fine mediaeval collection at Kensington, there would be more likelihood of bequests being made to that Museum than to the small mediaeval collection in the British Museum? — I think, that judging from the experience of the past, and from the man- ner in which the classical collections at the British Museum have grown up, that is very probable. 3172. Sir George Grey.~\ Which would be the most attractive establishment ; to which do you think it would be most likely that bequests would be made ? — That is a question upon which I do not know that I can give an opinion ; the British Museum is the oldest establishment. 3173. Chairman.] Do you think that one united collection would be more likely to obtain bequests than two collections ? — 3174. Mr. Puller.'] Do you not consider the British Museum to be the most comprehensive collection that we have in the country ? — Cer- tainly, by far the most comprehensive collection of ancient art ; but I do not see what more can be affirmed of it ; it contains very little beyond that ; it contains a very small collection of Christian art at present. 3175. Mr. Lowe.'] Do you think that these collections of mediaeval objects, ivories, ennmels, and glasses should be removed from the British Museum to the Kensington Museum, or that the like collection should be removed from the Ken- sington Museum to the British Museum ? — I should say that the collection of mediaeval ivories, glass, majolicas, and enamels, which is cbmmonly called the collection of mediaeval antiquities, should be removed to Kensington, by the rule that the less goes to the greater, and with the view of forming there a museum of Christian art. 3176. You stated that there were some things in the Kensington Museum, which vou thought should be removed to the British Museum ; which are those ? — I said, on the supposition that you would have two museums of Christian art, that there were mediaeval antiquities which were inter- changeable, but not on the supposition that you were to have one museum of Christian art. 3177. You did not point that remark to any other matter besides mediaeval antiquities ? — No. 3178. Is there anything in the South Kensing- ton Museum that you think it is desirable to transfer to the British Museum ? — I am not aware of anything. 3179. Chairman.] Would it be incompatible with the educational object of the South Ken- sington Museum, to remove the mediaeval collec- tions from the British Museum to it ? — No ; I cannot see how it would impair the efficiency of the present educational system there. 3180. You think that the educational object of that museum might be carried out as efficiently as it is now, and, that at the same time you might have a collection both for archaeological and for artistic purposes ? — Certainly. 3181. Recommending, as you have done, the combination of a gallery of pictures with a collec- tion of mediaeval antiquities, I suppose you would, on the same principle, recommend the early history of Christian art to be illustrated by large monu- ments ? — Yes, if you can get them ; I would always have large monuments if you can get ■ B b 3 them, C. T. Newton, Esq. 9 ' Iu 'y i860. i 9 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE C. T. Newtnn, Esq. 9 July i860. them, Because they are more impressive than small monuments ; they strike the careless eye. 3182. Supposing you could not get large monu- ments, would you be . disposed to have casts or specimes of sculpture by the great masters, such as the Moses or the Medici tomb, by Michael Angelo ? — It would depend upon the amount of space and the value of the ground; I consider that the manner in which the South Kensington Museum is illustrated by casts of fine sculpture and monuments is perfectly right and proper there, because there is plenty of space ; but, on the sup- position that you had a museum of medieval anti- quities in the British Museum, I should object, because the ground appears to be very much more valuable there ; and I should be disposed to con- fine it within a much smaller space. 3183. What distinction do you draw between Pagan art and Christian art, or where would you draw the line ? — Of course I need not observe that the line is as it were an imaginary line as on a map ; I have drawn the line at the reign of Con- stantine the Great, for the reason that I have stated in my letter; that it is the period when Paganism ceased to be the state religion, and it is an advantage to take that particular epoch, because from the moment that Paganism ceased to be the state religion, new motives, Christian motives, began to influence art, and everything must be viewed in relation to that new motive rather than the effete Paganism. 3184. And the period would be about the time of Constantine the Great ? — Yes. 3185. Then with regard to mediaeval art, what period woidd you ascribe to that ? — I would take the great divisions which historians give us ; that is to say, from the time of Constantine the Great to the end of the 15th century, would be the period of media? val art. I think that Mr. Hal- lam's history runs down to 1480 or 1500 ; and there, again, you get a most important epoch, the epoch of the Reformation, the revival of classical art, and the spread of Protestant feeling being con- temporaneous. These and other events of the period were causes of great importance in pro- ducing that great change in art. 3186. Mr. Ayrton.] In a mere art point of view, are the Committee to understand you to say that mediaeval art begins with the degradation of ancient art, and ends with the revival of art ? — • Yes. 3187. Chairman.] In the museum that you contemplate for mediaeval art, would you have decorative sculpture on a very large scale ? — Yes, you are not likely to get anything better; if you were, that would be another thing ; but in the case of mediaeval art, I would have decorative sculpture. 3188. For instance, would you attach great importance to the chimney-piece of Donatello, at Kensington? — Yes. 3189. And to the singing gallery, which is also there, brought from Florence '.' — Yes. ■ 3190. Do you think it would be impossihle to obtain space for an adequate collection of mediaeval art in the present locality of the British Museum? — It depends upon the amount of money you spend ; if you were to buy houses for that pur- pose, I suppose you might get space ; but I should object to that, as I should consider you were ab- sorbing space that would some day be needed to receive Pagan or classical art. 3191. Judging from a remark that you made in your letter to Mr. Panizzi in 1857, I naturally conclude that you contemplate the retention of the natural history collections on the present site, as you say, " Are we to plant a museum intended for the use and gratification of the British public at such a distance from the metropolis, that a visit to it would involve the sacrifice of a day ?" I pre- sume that you would also contemplate that space would be required for the natural history collec- tions at the British Museum, which would inter- fere with the space that might be required for a large collection of mediaeval art ? — When I wrote that, I believe I was not aware that the natural history collection was likely to be moved. I do not think that I had that in my eye at all. I think that the natural history collection should be, in some part of the metropolis, accessible to the population that most care about it; whether other sites than that of the British Museum could not be found, I cannot say. 3192. Sir George Grey.] Do you attach any importance to the retention of the natural history collection in the same museum with the collection of antiquities, provided it was equally accessible to the public on some other site ? — I do not think the relation between natural history and antiqui- ties is sufficiently near to weigh in the scale one way or the other. 3193. Mr. Walpnle.] With regard to the space that you would require for the marbles which you • have brought over, would you desire them to be on the ground floor ? — Certainly. 3194. The removal of the natural history col- lection would not help you ?■ — Yes, if you applied the whole quadrangle ; if you moved the books and removed the natural history department, that would enable you to put the books now on the ground floor on the upper floor, and in that way you would get the whole quadrangle. 3195. The least space that you would require' lor the Archaic room, for the Budrum room, and the Lion room, is 240 feet by 40, somewhere to be provided?— Yes. 3196. The probability is, if you brought up the things on the basement, which ought to be accommodated, besides that, for immediate accom- modation, you would require 300 feet by 40 ?— Yes. 3197. Mr. Hardy.] Can you state whether or not the removal of those large masses from the Lycian room would afford room for the better exhibition of what was left?— -I think that all that I propose to remove, the Harpy tomb, would not relieve the room ; there are two tombs so lofty that they never can be properly exhibited in so low a room. 3198. Mr. Ayrton (to Mr. Westmacott). Where do you consider the mediaeval period ends ?— In the 16th century, prior to what is called the Renaissance. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 199 Jovis, 12° die Julii, 1860. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Gregory. Sir George Grey. Mr. Hardy. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Puller. Mr. Tite. Mr. Turner. Mr. W. H. GREGORY, in the Chair. Charles Thomas Newton, Esq., called in ; and further Examined. 3199. Chairman.] Besides the interest which you have taken in classical antiquities, you have also, I believe, paid considerable attention to our national antiquities ? — I have. At one period I had an opportunity of studying them in connexion with the Archaeological Institute, when I was its honorary secretary, and particularly in connexion with Yorkshire. I had prepared for the Archaeo- logical Institute a map of British and Roman Yorkshire, marking the localities where the va- rious antiquities were found. 3200. The object of the Archaeological Insti- tute, I think, was to promote archaeological knowledge, and the preservation of local anti- quities ? — Yes. 3201. You are aware that in what is called the mediaeval collections of the British Museum there are two divisions, one of which may be styled the National Mediaeval Antiquities, and the other General Mediaeval Antiquities ? — I think that, naturally, any collection of mediaeval antiquities must contain a certain portion which are at once mediaeval and national ; that is the case at the British Museum. 3202. Are there collections which are called British collections, and other collections which are not British, in those collections which are not classical collections ? — Yes ; subsequently to the period of Pagan art. In fact, in the antiquities of Roman Britain, which may be c'onsidered part of a museum of Pagan art, and also in any sub- sequent collection of mediaeval antiquities, there would be what may be called the British element. 3203. Under what head would you arrange those British collections, as Pagan or Christian? First of all, let us take the pre-historic collec- tions ; those collections which consist of flint im- plements found in the drift, and articles of bronze found in England, but to which no exact period can be assigned ; would you classify them under a Pagan or a Christian denomination ? — I think that where there is no evidence that they are of a Christian period, they would go most naturally under Roman Britain or Pagan Britain, but I would not undertake to assert that they are pre-historic ; they may or may not be ; I would say generally that they belong to Pagan Britain. 3204. Mr. Ayrton.'] You are now speaking of the archaeological collection ? — Yes. 3205. Chairman.] Do you recollect the Stan- wick collections, presented by the Duke of North- umberland ? — Yes, and I assisted at their exca- vation on his estate. 3206. What is their character ?— That is a point upon which there is a difference of opinion. There is no question that some of the ornaments present 0.96. the character of late Roman work, and there are particular ornaments which I could name. On the other hand, it is thought by competent judges that they resemble Saxon antiquities. Both state- ments may be true : they may have been executed in Saxon times, with the tradition of Roman art influencing the artist ; they may be of the latest period of the Roman empire. I should be inclined to place them as among the latest Roman remains of Britain ; but Mr. Albert Way, who has studied that subject more than I have, considers them as more Saxon than Pagan ; they might be called Romanesque. 3207. Can you detect any Christian motive in any of the specimens in those collections ; I mean particularly the Stanwick collection ? — I cannot remember any Christian m»tive in any of these objects. 3208. You would range them under the head of Pagan art ? — Yes ; I think that they would go with the remains of Roman Britain. At the same time if, in any division, it was insisted upon that they belonged to the Christian period, and other evidence was brought to me, which I have not yet seen, connecting them very positively with some Saxon work known to be Christian, I should not quarrel with such an arrangement. 3209. With regard to the Saxon antiquities, are not the greater part of them supposed by archaeologists to be Pagan quite as much as Chris- tian ? — I have never had the opportunity of seeing many of the Saxon antiquities ; the collection has, I think, been formed very much since I left Eng- land ; but the most remarkable Saxon antiquities known to be Saxon, that I can call to mind at this moment, are certainly of the Christian period, for instance, the jewel of King Alfred. I am not aware of any considerable collection of antiquities of the Pagan period which can be positively said to be Saxon. I do not know whether the great stones found in parts of England, with Runic knots upon them, would be considered Saxon. 3210. Do you remember in the British Museum a collection of Livonian Antiquities which was purchased from Professor Bahr, of Dresden ? — No ; I think they have been acquired since I left England. 3211. They are, I think, of an early period up to the 12th century, during which time the Livonians were Pagan ; and if any line of dis- crimination was to be drawn with regard to the removal of Pagan and Christian collections, would you retain them in the British Museum ? — I should like to see this collection of antiquities before I answer that question ; it would depend upon the whole character of them. B b 4 3212. In C.T. Neivton,E»q. 12 July i860. 200 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BFFQRE THE C. T. 3212. In drawing a line of discrimination ewtun, Esq. between Pagan and Christian art, upon whom would you throw the onus of proof, upon the 1 2 July persons wishing to remove the collections, or upon i860. the persons wishing to retain them ? — That is upon the supposition I presume that the existing collec- tions are divided. 3213. Yes? — In dividing the existing collections, as for instance the present collection of antiquities of Roman Britain, and the mediaeval antiquities in the British Museum, I conclude that there would be two parties to such removal officially appointed for the purpose, the keeper of the new Museum to be formed, and the keeper of the portion to re- remain in the British Museum, and I should con- ceive that those two gentlemen ought to have common sense enough to come to an amicable understanding on the subject; but in case of doubt, it would be very easy to find a third referee. 3214. You do not think that there would be any very great difficulty in drawing that line of discrimination, and that the arbitrators would not ' find it very difficult to separate the respective collections? — I think that there is a certain amount of casuistry in these matters which is inevitable. Any archaeologist who has tried to carry out a principle absolutely, is constantly met by an unexpected difficulty, which obliges him to modify that principle ; but I think that these are points of detail, and I do not see that there is any difficulty so great as to interfere with a general principle of division, for instance, of Pagan and Christian art, into two separate museums. 3215. I suppose thai; if the mediaeval collections were to be removed from the British Museum, such objects as Pilgrims' signs would go to what- ever other place the mediaeval collections were to be removed? — lam not acquainted with the class of antiquities called Pilgrims' signs. 3216. If those collections, to which I have alluded, were removed to the Kensington Museum, would you form them into a distinct collection, or would you incorporate them with the other collections which are there? — I think that there is in this country a certain historical sentiment in reference to British antiquities. I mean to say that there may be objects which may be con- sidered, in one point of view, as relics, connected with English History, and with illustrious per- sonages ; and, in another point of view, as merely part of a series illustrating the history of art. I think that that historical sentiment should be respected, as far as possible, in the arrangement of a museum. I think, for example, that there is a positive interest to us in the sword of Hugh Lupus, or any other such notable person ; and I believe we can never divest ourselves of such an interest ; and I would not so incorporate those isolated historical relics as to make persons forget the fact that they are connected with English History in some way ; but then I think that is a matter of detail ; I should be disposed to separate in any arrangement, as far as possible, the British mediaeval antiquities from the general mediaeval antiquities. 3217- Mr. Ayrton.] The association of English antiquities would be the predominant sentiment, and not the beauty of art in the collection you now speak of?— I am speaking of the historical associations connected with the British portion of a museum of Christian art ; but I was not pro- posing to form a museum, based on a historical principle alone, but rather in the arrangement of a museum of Christian art, to respect historical associations, and to give them predominance where it is possible. 3218. Chairman.} If those collections were sent to the Kensington Museum, where»there is already an Art Collection, would you arrange those col- lections to illustrate archaeology, or to illustrate art ; which, in short, would be your primary ob- ject ? — I think that there are a great number of objects in such collections, that are at once his- torical, or relics of history, connected with par- ticular events, and at the same time documents for the history of art, and it is extremely difficult, sometimes, so to arrange them as to exhibit both points of view of the same subject ; but I should certainly take one broad general principle of classification as the groundwork of any sub- arrangement. I would give prominence to the interesting features oK each individual object ; but, as it is necessary to have one fundamental prin- ciple of arrangement rather than two, I would take the chronological arrangement as the broadest I could find. I would sub-arrange geographically, or in anyway that was convenient. I do not think we can do more than affirm general princi- ples as preferable. I think it must be left to the discretion of the keeper of a department to apply those principles to special classes of objects, and to special spaces. 3219. Mr. Ayrton.] In forming this collection would the historic sentiment predominate, or would the sense of beauty predominate ? — Does the Honourable Member mean in purchasing a col- lection ? 3220. Yes? — I should purchase both classes. If I was the keeper of a museum of Christian art. I should buy every object which I considered a fine example of art of the period, and I should not fail to "buy such antiquities as were illustrative of the history of manners, and so forth, or connected with particular persons ; and, in doing so, I be- lieve that I should get one homogeneous museum as the result, as we know it to be the case in classical archaeology. 3221. In setting up this collection, you would endeavour by some mode of arrangement to dis- criminate between those objects which were put into the collection as illustrating the beautiful, from those that were put into the collection to illustrate historical associations ? — I think it would be desirable to distinguish the objects in that way; but not so far as to have two separate mu- seums, one historical and one illustrating art. I do not think that that is practicable ; but to take , an instance, which, I believe, I have mentioned in the letter which is before the Committee, the case of armour; the natural arrangement of armour is, that there shall be a historical collec- tion of suits of armour as at the Tower, ranging from century to century ; there is a particular suit of armour in the Louvre which is a remark- ably beautiful specimen of silversmith's work; and I am by no means prepared to say that that is not better where it is, than if it were in the Mus6e d'Artillerie at Paris, with the rest. 3222. Chairman.'] We are supposing now that the collection of mediaeval antiquities is to be sent -to the department of Science and Art at Kensington ? — Yes. 3223. Then the new collection would involve the necessity of two principles being maintained in augmenting the collection ; would you purchase with an archaeological purpose, and also with an artistic purpose ? — Certainly. 3224. Then SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 201 3224. Then what I want to ascertain is, how the collections now in the British Museum, and how those that would be subsequently purchased, are to be arranged, which is to be the predominant sentiment of the arrangement, the . archaeological or the artistic? — I should say, if we suppose that the collection of mediaeval antiquities now in the British Museum is to be transferred to the Kensington Museum, and it is .required to in- corporate it with the collection already existing there, in a manner most instructive to the public, the business of the keeper would be to incor- porate generally the different classes of works of art, under the existing classes, with the reser- vation of a geographical sub-arrangement in the case of Britain, where it could be carried out ; and in a case where new classes were formed by those accessions, for instance, classes of which the interest is purely archaeological, and not artistic, to create those classes ; the position of these classes would be in that relation to the whole art of the same period which archaeology has already decided ; for instance, there is a rela- tion between a Greek inscription and a piece of sculpture ; there is a relation between the monu- mental brasses of a period in Christian art, and the same work, which is a mere inscription on a piece of metal, without any figure ; these are points of detail which it is impossible to explain without having a collection wherewith to exemplify them. 3225. Do you propose to retain the mediaeval coins with the antiquities, or to remove them ? — I have given my reasons in the first of the letters to Mr. Panizzi, why I think it desirable not to take away the mediaeval proportion of the coins ; I think that numismatics is a special branch of archaeology, and I should consider it, practically, the most difficult of all ; there is nothing that I know of, in the duties of a keeper of a museum, so difficult as to form a judgment between true and false coins ; and there are very few men who are qualified to judge between true and false coins ; and those men can only be so qualified, by many years' training in a large cabinet of coins. It is for these reasons, and also from a con- sideration of custody, that I think it is better to have one numismatic staff, and not to weaken it by having collections of coins in two places. As a matter of custody, I think it is better to have one room with a Chubb lock inaccessible from without, and fire-proof, and so on, instead of having two. 3226. Do you think that mediaeval coins illus- trate mediaeval art to the same extent that antique coins illustrate ancient art ? — No, I think they do not ; they do illustrate it, there is no doubt, as a collateral illustration, but there is this difference, that the ancient coin is constantly either a portion of a work of art, or an entire work of art, having a very direct relation to the higher art of the period, showing you in little what the sculpture is in large; giving you the same mythological personages that you find in the larger art of the sculptor ; and giving you what is most important, the names of those personages, which is thus inseparable from the work of art itself. I con- sider that paleography and art, which are con- stantly separated in marble, are combined in the coin, and it is from the study of them in com- bination on the coin, that we can construct, in a great measure, the whole history of ancient art. We do not require to call in mediaeval coins as witnesses, in Christian art, to the same extent ; we have other witnesses. 0.96. 3227. Would you separate the mediaeval medals & T. from antique medals ? — I am not aware that there Newton, Esq. are any antique medals, if you consider a medal to ~~ ~~ be a piece of metal, struck in commemoration of a 12 qr ^ particular event, and not intended for circula- tion. 3228. There are many medals, especially Ger- man, which are coins as well as medals, in the British Museum ? — Probably there are ; I am not aware of any particular instances. 3229. If that is the case, there would be some difficulty in separating them, would there not ? — There might be. I have never made a study of German medals. 323Q. Do you think that there is any connexion between the coins and seals in the middle ages ? — Yes ; there is a considerable connexion. 3231. How far would you be disposed to re- move the latter from the British Museum ? — Does the Honourable Chairman mean the impressions of the seals or the actual documents, the seals themselves ? 3232. The matrix? — That, I think, is a moot point. The seals themselves, I believe, are at present in the Manuscript Boom, and it is thought that their connexion with the document which they attest rides over other considerations. It might be argued that the matrix ought to be with the seal ; it might be again argued that the matrix ought to be with the coins ; and on the whole, I think, it is not absolutely necessary that those matrices should be with the coins, and that they might very well go to the mediaeval collection at South Kensington; the impressions would thus remain at the British Museum, because they can T not be separated from the manuscripts. In that case, you would have in one place the impressions to refer to, and in the other the original seals. 3233. Are there many mediaeval ivory car- vings on book covers in the British Museum, - and would you be disposed to remove the books which ha"ve those coverings from the British Mu- i ? — That would depend, I think, upon the seum : connexion between the. binding of the book and the manuscript within. I remember to have seen a very beautiful book, that was purchased some years ago, in the Manuscript Boom, in which, I think, the binding was a beautiful specimen of Byzantine work ; and my impression is, that as there was a unity of date between the binding and the manuscript within, it would be a piece of pedantry to strip that binding off.. I have seen other cases in which the ivory seemed to be let into the binding accidentally, and its removal would not mutilate the book ; but I would never mutilate a book. 3234. I think you stated, in your letter to Mr. Panizzi of 1857, that the illuminated manuscripts afford valuable illustrations of the periods to which they belong, and therefore of mediaeval antiquities ? — Yes. 3235. Then, if you separated the mediaeval anti- quities from the British Museum, you would depri ve yourself of the value of those illuminated manu- scripts as illustrations? — Does the Honourable Chairman mean as illustrations to be exhibited with the antiquities for the general public, or as illustrations for reference by the student ? 3236. For reference by the student? — You would oblige the student for reference certainly to go to the Manuscript Boom in the British Museum, and call for the manuscript ; but he is obliged to do that now ; he has to walk into a totally different department, unless he has the C c 4~ entree 202 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE i860. C T. entree of the British Museum from private friend- Newton, Esq. s hip ; ne mus t g into Jhe Reading Room, and ~T~ present his ticket, and call for the manuscript. 1 : J 3237. Referring to the gentleman who has charge of the mediaeval antiquities, does he not find con- siderable advantage with regard to the arrange- ment of his collections, and with regard to under- standing ' them, from having constant access to these illuminated manuscripts ? — I think the gen- tleman having charge of that department is more competent to speak to that than I am; but I should not imagine a reference was so very fre- quent. I think that you might argue in the same way, that he ought to have a gallery of pictures close at hand, on account of the illustration afforded by banquet scenes, and scenes of domestic life in "pictures, and which are far more distinct than as we get them from manuscripts, 3238. As to the separation of the works called mediaeval works, and classical works, is there not very considerable difficulty in distinguishing, be- tween the bronzes of the cinque cento period and the classical period ? — There is a class of bronzes which have got intermixed, from the habit in the renaissance period of imitating the antique very accurately ; but I think that, after a discriminating judge had passed through any such mixed collec- tion, the number of doubtful ones remaining would not be very great. 3239. There is a difficulty also with regard to the separation of mediaeval glass from ancient glass,, is there not ? — Yes. I would say, in reply to all these questions, de minimis non curat lex. 3240. You think that there might be objections raised to a particular object ; but still a broad line of demarcation might be drawn without any con- siderable difficulty ? — Certainly. 3241. Do you not consider that the advantages to be derived from the great library in the British Museum are very important for the study of me- diaeval antiquities? — I have no doubt that they are-, but they are much less so than for classical anti- quities. 3242. Are there not many historical and topogra- phical works of the middle ages which are of very great importance to the student of mediaeval art ? — Yes, certainly. 3243. And which it would be necessary to refer to? -Yes. 3244. But, however, you think, I presume, that he might go to the British Museum to obtain the requisite information ? — I think that a number of those might be purchased for a departmental li- brary, as has been done in the British Museum. It must be remembered that, while the library which is placed at the British Museum is a great advantage to the officers, it is at the same time a very great hindrance, from its very great size; and it must be so in the nature of things. Some years ago I had an opportunity of representing to one of the trustees the enormous loss of time taken up in the common operations of reference, from having to look to the catalogue, for ordinary books in the library; if I want to consult a single reference to Thucydides, I do not want to wade through 10 pages of. the catalogue, until I find the edition that I want. In consequence of this, the trustees allowed the Department of Antiquities to purchase a library ; and I believe that these departmental libraries, formed with judgment, will very soon grow up into something prac- tically very useful; but of course they could never supersede the necessity for consulting the Universal Library in the British Museum. 3245. Practically speaking, you think that a small, well-selected departmental library would be sufficient for the ordinary uses of the mediaeval museum, and that for anything exceptional the student, or the officer in charge of that depart- ment, might refer to the great library in the British Museum ? — I think so, practically speak- ing ; the library, for instance, which is already at Kensington, may be taken as a nucleus ; I under- stand that they have purchased a number of very fine illustrated works. I think that, by a certain addition to that every year, a very useful working library would be formed. I do not say how large it should be, but I would take that as a nucleus already formed. 3246. In the course of this examination, a question was asked as to whether your opinion in 1857, with regard to the separation of the medi- aeval collections from the British Museum, was in accordance with the letter which you had written to Colonel Mure in 1853. I will read you the passage that was quoted on that occasion: — "A museum of antiquities, not one of people or period only, but of all races, and of all time, ex- hibits a vast comparative scheme of the material productions of man. We are thus enabled to follow the progress of the fine and useful arts, contemporaneously, through a long period of time, tracking their several lines backwards, till they converge to one vanishing point of the unknown past." Can you reconcile that passage with the tenor of your subsequent letter to Colonel Mure in 1857, advocating a separation? — I think the Honourable Member's question was this, whether I could reconcile the passage just read with the tenor of a subsequent letter to Mr. Panizzi, in 1857. The tenor of that subsequent letter I con- ceive to be determined by its opening paragraph, which reserves the question as to what might be theoretically most desirable, although perhaps not practically possible. 3247. Therefore, I may take that sentence, I presume, as the theory of a very great plan, which it might be, perhaps, desirable to carry out in case circumstances permitted it, and you think that circumstances do not permit it ? —As far as I can judge, from all the evidence that I have col- lected in the course of a week in this country, and from the general circumstances of the country, considering the demand to be made upon it for money for other national purposes and those urgent purposes, I think that to entertain these gigantic schemes at such a moment is out of place. I am disposed, at this moment, to recom- mend something very much smaller, on the principle that half a loaf is better than no bread. I think it is not at all likely that any theoretical scheme on so grand a scale will be entertained at all, either by Her Majesty's Government or by Parliament. 3248. Upon the whole, attaching, as you do, great value to the collection of Christian art, you would separate all objects clearly Christian and not Pagan from the British Museum?— Yes, with the exception of the coins, leaving the seals as a moot point. 3249. You think that one fine comprehensive collection would be more valuable, both to the archaeologist and to the artist, than two separate collections?— ^Certainly ; I think they could be so arranged as that the archaeologist should have full historical satisfaction, and the student of art should have the most profitable instruction possible. 3250. Do you think it would be possible to form SELECT COMMITTEE 0N THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 203 form that collection at Kensington without in any way interfering with the educational scope of that museum ?— I have no doubt of it. 3251. Do you attach any importance to Ken- sington on account of its locality and freedom from smoke ? — I have no predilection in favour of Ken- sington more than any other site ; but' coming home as I have at intervals during the last seven years, I am struck with the fact of the rapidity of the growth of that museum, which is of a very practical character in a great many of its arrange- ments, and with the zeal shown by its officers ; I think so far I have a prejudice in favour of the Museum, although I would not say in favour of the site. It is, I believe, ascertained that the ground there is very much cheaper ground than round the British Museum, and I think it is there- fore more suitable for the more rapid expansion of a Museum of Christian art. 3252. You think that the objects which would be collected, if such a Museum were constructed for archaeological purposes, might be permanently ar- ranged and kept unmoved, while those objects which were collected for artistic purposes might be allowed to circulate ? — Yes ; but having heard Mr. Cole's evidence the other day, I think that there should be a stringent rule with regard to unique specimens. I certainly do not think that anything should justify the circulation of such an object as the Portland Vase, for instance ; no con- sideration whatever, I think, should justify that. There might very easily be rules framed of that kind, that a unique specimen of a certain value should not be allowed to circulate. I think that there would always be enough for the use of the temporary museums in the provinces. 3253. Do you think, from your observations since you came to England, that these circulating collections have considerably improved the manu- facturing taste of the country? — When I was in England in 1859 I visited the drawing school at Worcester, in company of Her Majesty's Inspec- tor of Drawing Schools, for the purpose of ascer- taining how far the instruction in drawing had improved the taste of the designers in the Worces- ter manufactory, and I must say that I think there has been very great progress made. I saw there, in the principal manufacturer's establishment, most beautiful imitations of the Limoges enamel. With a view of forming a comparison of the state of this art at different periods, I examined a ser- vice of China ordered by Her Majesty, and ser- vices which had been executed for previous sove- reigns in this country, and the difference was very considerable in point of taste ; and I infer from this example that these circulating museums and these inspectors issuing from one centre, and teaching a new doctrine throughout the country, are doing their work well, and I think that there is a very great increase of taste in consequence. 3254. Mr. AyrtonJ] What connexion would there be between such a museum as you have mentioned, and the school of art at Kensington ? — Does the Honourable Member mean by the museum I have mentioned the museum at Worcester ? 3255. No; the mediaeval museum which you have been speaking of constructing somewhere in London, out of the objects collected in the British Museum ? — The Honourable Member will remember that I never spoke of constructing a medieval museum, but a museum of Christian art ; I presume that Christianity has continued from 0.96. the middle ages ; I of course include the renais- C. T. sance. Newton, Esq. 3256. Is your museum to be continuous from the decline of classical art, up to the present 12 July time? — Certainly, so as to include the chief 1660. monuments of the renaissance ; whether it should come down to the present day quite, is a question, I think, open to consideration ; but I should be disposed to say, if you had space enough, and officers enough to look after it, carry it down, as in many cases in the Louvre, for example, to the end of the last century. 3257. Chairman.'] Do you not think that a familiarity with classical art would also improve the national manufacturing taste ? — Certainly. 3258. Mr. Ayrton.] I would ask you whether, in a collection of Christian art, you would include or exclude works in imitation of classical art of the renaissance period? — They cannot be sepa- rated; they are part of the phenomena of the renaissance, and the key by which these pheno- mena are explained is the revival of taste for clas- sical learning. 3259. Chairman.] Do you not think that a familiarity with classical art would improve the national manufacturing taste ? — Certainly. 3260. Might not circulating collections of classical art be sent from the British Museum, upon the same principle as from the Kensington Museum, consisting of bronzes and vases, which the British Museum might spare without any fear of injury, arising from their not being con- nected with any particular point of archaeology ? — It would be of course a matter of consideration for Parliament, in reference to the original statutes of the British Museum, how far they would admit of any such temporary removal of any of those objects ; there is no question that there are many objects that might be sent out, and would be sent out, with every probability of their coming back again uninjured ; but it is a question with me, considering the kind of officers that we have at the British Museum, and considering how their time is occupied, whether the officer in charge of the department of antiquities would ever find time to be packing and unpacking those objects which were selected for circulation ; I think that so great an amount of labour is imposed upon the officers in the museum that I should be sorry to set them to such work. 3261. Would not such articles be very small, such as vases and bronzes ? — I think that without encountering the difficulty of having to send the things which are actually in the British Museum for the purpose of which the Honourable Chair- man speaks, a collection might be purchased much more readily ad hoc ; opportunities are constantly occurring ; large collections of vases, for instance, are often offered to the British Museum ; the Museum selects the best specimens, and the re- mainder is sold by public auction, and it would be very easy to purchase from such sales what was needed. 3262. Have you not seen from the evidence of Mr. Cole, that no specimens of classical art are purchased for the Kensington Museum in con- sequence of its being supposed that such purchases would be trenching upon the province of the British Museum? — My impression, from my recollection of Mr. Cole's evidence the other day, as also from conversations which I have had with him and other officers at the South Kensington Museum, is, that they do occasionally purchase specimens, but very sparingly, but they are never c 2 -j- such 204 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE C. T. Newton, Esq 12 July i860. such specimens as could interfere with the British Museum. 3263. Mr. Ayrton.\ Will you be good enough to give some better definition of what you mean by Christian art as compared with other art; what is the precise limit that you would pre- scribe to Christian art, as compared with objects of sculpture, such as, for example, a statuette of an improvisatore ; would that be an object of Christian art, or an object of general art? — The question is, was that statuette produced by a Christian people in the range of time since Christianity has been professed ; if it was, I should consider it Christian art. 3264. But that definition would apply also to an object, such as a work of Michael Angelo, although upon a subject of Pagan History?— Certainly ; but there would be no other way of classing the works of Michael Angelo, unless you had by the side of classical art a subdivision of pseudo-classical art, which would be exceedingly inconvenient to put him in. 3265. Chairman.^ You are aware that there is an ethnographical collection in the British Mu- seum ; would you be disposed to separate that ? — Yes, I think so. I have offered a few remarks on that collection at the close of the second letter in 1857. It appears to me that ethnography, which has less reference to the past than the pre- sent, in many cases requires a large space, but does not require such an expensive establishment or such an expensive building as the British Museum. I think that the space in the British Museum is, and always must be, very precious, and the officers of the department of antiquities must always have their time very fully occupied with very important questions. Now, I conceive that is a distinction, and a very considerable distinc- tion between the products of those races through Whom our present civilization has come down, as an inheritance, and those outside barbarians with whom we come in contact all over the world through commerce. I think it is most interesting and most desirable, not only in a commercial, but in a philosophical point of view, that somewhere there should be a great museum, presenting to us a picture of the products of these outside bar- barians all over the world ; but I think that such a museum would be far better placed in the Vic- toria Park in connexion with a natural history museum, or might be moved to the Zoological Gardens ; such a museum is, in fact, more con- nected, I should say, with what may be called utilitarian associations. 3266. With reference to prints and drawings, how far would you separate them, or retain them, in the British Museum ? — I believe I am correct in stating that, Sir Charles Eastlake the other day seemed to think that, as to exhibiting certain drawings, the first designs of great masters are most naturally associated with the pictures of which they exhibit the first idea. I agree with that opinion with reference to those particular drawings ; but there does seem to be a very close and intimate connexion between prints, particu- larly portraits of persons, and books. I think that that portion of the prints has a connexion with a great library, but it is a subject that I have not thought much about. 3267. I believe when you were an assistant in the British Museum you were allowed by the trustees to visit Italy in 1848, at your own ex- pense ? — Yes. 3268. For what purpose were you allowed to do so ? — I was instructed to visit the museums of Italy, and to endeavour to make such observa- tions as would be profitable to the Museum, and increase my efficiency when I returned. 3269. Did you draw up a report? — Yes, which was sent in to the Trustees. 3270. On the subject of the museums in Italy? — Yes. It was a detailed account of the museums in Italy which I had visited, in which, as far as possible, I marked all the restored portions of each statue, in order that on referring to the engravings of those statues in subsequent works at the Museum, we might know more particularly how far to trust those engravings ; that work, in reference to Rome, was one of very considerable labour. I also visited Naples and Munich, and at the end of the report I made a comparative statement of the relative riches of three or four museums which I had visited in reference to the British Museum ; and that portion of the report I printed afterwards in a periodical. 3271. I)o you think that if the officers of the British Museum were occasionally allowed to travel for a special purpose, and to report, reports of very considerable value might be obtained? - — I think they might ; at the same time I Would strongly recommend the pursuing of what I should consider the more immediate objects of the Museum first ; when more progress had been made in those, then the giving officers a certain faci* lity for visiting foreign countries, I think would be useful. 3272. Why did you leave the Museum, and go to the East? — There were a number of private reasons, with which I will not trouble the Honours- able Committee ; but my principal reason was the belief that the Levant had not been properly ex- amined ; as travellers necessarily went out there young, and without that training of the eye which would enable them to recognise the traces of an- cient remains with great readiness, and I thought that a person going from the British Museum with the knowledge acquired by the training of years might make some very remarkable discoveries which Other travellers had failed to make. _ 3273. Am I right in supposing that Lord Gran- ville's object in sending you out to the Levant was to extend your usefulness with regard to the British Museum ? — Those words were used in my instructions ; it was an instruction with a reserve that my absence from my post was not to be detri- mental _ to the public service. I was just as responsible for the vice-consulate at Mitylene as before. 3274. .The result of that journey was the dis<- covery of the Mausoleum by you?— Yes. 3275i You also purchased some very valuable antiquities, which have been added to the British Museum?— Yes; I acquired that collection of inscriptions, about 120 in number, in the course of seven years, and a number of rare coins ; and ultimately I was the means of acquiring for the British Museum one of the most remarkable col- lections of antiquities that has been found in this century, a collection of gold ornaments, vases, and small figures from the site, as we suppose, of the ancient city of Cumirus, in the island of Ehodes which were purchased by the Trustees last year and the first clue to which I acquired while acting as consul at Rhodes. 3276. Were those collections obtained from the British vice-consul, at Rhodes?— Yes; they were purchased by me at the close of the Budrum expedition with money supplied to me, generally SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 205 by the Trustees of the British Museum; they were obtained through the British vice-consul, Valiotti, who conducted the excavation at my instigation. 3277. Does the success of that gentleman in obtaining those most remarkable objects prompt you to consider that consuls ought to be encouraged in making collections of ancient remains ? — I think so ; arid that all they want is to be reminded of the fact that the British Museum will gladly receive contributions from the Levant. I have visited many of the Consulates in the Levant, and I found that many of them have never, except in a very remote and vague manner, heard of the British Museum ; and, as an instance of the advantage of calling their attention to that fact, I would mention that my pre- decessor at Mitylene was transferred to Benghazi, in Africa, the, ancient Cyrenaica ; and this being one of the most interesting districts in the Medi- terranean, I pointed out to him that he was going into a district where he would be sure to meet with certain vases of very high interest ; that he would do well either to excavate or to purchase antiquities, and that I would do my best after- wards to induce the British Museum to indemnify him for his expenses. lie did excavate, and he did purchase, and he has contributed to the British Museum some very remarkable vases, with the names of Athenian archons. 3278. On the whole, are you of opinion that it would be advisable occasionally to allow some of the gentlemen connected with the British Mu- seum to travel, and that they might receive some slight allowance for their expenses ? — I think it is desirable occasionally, with the reserve that I have already mentioned. I think that there should be considerable progress made in the present arrears of catalogues, and other work, be- fore indulgences (for I cannot but consider them as indulgences) to the officers are granted on a, very liberal scale. I think, certainly, that occa 1 - sionally such a furlough would be a great refresher ; and I would connect these missions with the making of particular catalogues. For instance, When a gentleman has been employed for three or four years in the ungrateful labour of making a catalogue of some particular class of objects, if he could report that it had reached a, certain point of progress, and that it was desirable, in order to clear up certain points, that he should visit foreign museums for that express purpose, I would grant him leave of absence. I think that that would make the work of the museum go on much faster ; that it would afford an additional motive for what is a very ungrateful labour, that of making cata- logues, and that it would make the catalogues very much better than they are now. 3279. You would, of course, make such a per- mission to travel a matter of favour rather than of right ? — Yes, as a favour to be granted to those who showed the greatest diligence. 3280. With regard to lectures, I think you have had very considerable experience in lecturing? — I have taken every opportunity, consistently with other duties, of giving popular lectures on art ; those lectures have been interrupted at dif- ferent times, but they have convinced me that very great advantage in the formation of public taste would result from following them up. 3281. How far would you be disposed to give lectures within the precincts of the British Mu- seum ? — I do not see any necessity for giving lec- tures, so far as antiquities are concerned, within 0.96. the precincts of the British Museum. If the c. T. nation think proper to form a distinct staff of Newton, Esq. lecturers, and build a theatre, as at South Ken- sington, they may do so ; but my impression is that 1 2 July it would be much better to give lectures on Bri- ' 860. tish Museum subjects at South Kensington ; the machinery for lecturing there is in a very com- plete state. I have given a lecture there myself, and 1 should say it was a very agreeable place for the purpose. There is a well-organised sys- tem for putting up illustrations, and for lighting the room, and for advertising, all of which was done for me in a very efficient manner. There are considerable objections, I think, to creating a class of lecturers at the British Museum, indepen- dently of the officers who are there for custody ; I think the system would not work well. The officer charged with the custody of the objects is, of course, the person who superintends the cata- logues, and catalogue making is an occupation, like the making of lexicons, from which not much honour and glory, and not much emolument, are to be obtained ; it is, I should say, one of those occupations in which every additional motive should be given to induce the officer to work hard at it. On the other hand, the making of good catalogues is the foundation of all good power of lecturing; and in making that assertion I may quote the example of Professor Owen, and also of Professor Phillips at Oxford, and other men devoted to the natural sciences, who have been at once distinguished as popular lecturers, and dis- tinguished for their patient drudgery as makers of catalogues. Now, I think if you introduce, from without, a class of lecturers who would be constantly making use of the labour of the cata- logue makers, you would create between them rather an unpleasant feeling, for the catalogue maker, who perhaps would be a meritorious man, and a man constantly at work, would see his researches carried away from him and turned to account by a showy lecturer, who Would never acknowledge the advantage he had received from the catalogue maker. On the other hand, if the catalogue maker, from constant acquaintance with the subject, became a popular lecturer, I should not interdict that. I think, with some men, it follows as a matter of course that, because they are diligent catalogue makers, they become good popular lecturers, for the amount of detail that catalogue making gives you enables you to give the best and soundest popular lectures. 3282. I presume that you would not interpose any hindrance to gentlemen connected with the British Museum from giving lectures, if they chose,, elsewhere ? — No ; provided they did their work in official hours. 3283. Do not you think that if lectures were to be given connected with the British Museum, it might turn out that in case there was a paucity of popular lecturers there, a gentleman might be selected for his power of delivering lectures, rather than for those qualifications which are most essen- tial in your estimation in an officer of a museum ? — Yes ; I think it might be so 5 I think it might lead to unsound teaching. 3284. I mean that a person might be chosen for having the power of delivering lectures, rather than for his qualifications in cataloguing and for his knowledge of the collections under his charge ? — Yes ; I think so. I think it would be a constant source of undesirable rivalries. 3285. Mr. Ayrton^\ You see no practical means of delivering lectures in the Museum itself upon c C 3 +- the 206 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE i860. C T. the objects which are there exhibited ? — No ; I Newton, Esq. would not assert that. I have given lectures on the objects in the British Museum. I once 12 Jul}' gave a lecture to Queen's College, in Harley- street, on vases, and I then said that if any of the ladies present chose to come in parties, not ex- ceeding 12, to the vase room, I would take out individual vases, and illustrate what I had been there saying from examples. Another mode of lecturing is the mode which the professor of archi- tecture adopts, that of taking his class round the rooms, and the schoolmasters of the army take their men round, and give them lectures on the different objects in the rooms ; those are peripatetic lectures. 3286. That is the mode that you would adopt for giving lectures in the Museum? — Yes, I think so. 3287. Mr. Tite.] To a class ?— Yes. 3288. Not opening a theatre ? — No. 3289. Mr. Puller.'] You would find an advan- tage in having the objects there to lecture about ? — Yes ; and there is a saving of the expense of drawing an object. 3290. Had you the care of the vases at the time to which you refer ? — Yes, so far that I was authorised to take a vase out of the cases. 3291. Supposing there had been then a theatre, would you not have preferred to select a certain number of vases and have them exhibited in the theatre, and lecture to a larger class ? — No ; because the paintings on the vases being very small, it is impossible to teach from the vases themselves to any practical purpose to a larger audience than about 12 persons. If you would lecture on the subject of vases to a large audience, it must be done with the aid of drawings, and in many cases by enlarged representations. 3292. Mr. Tite.] Referring to Halicarnassus, I believe the subject was first brought under the consideration of the Government by the Archi- tectural Society, who called their attention to the marbles that were built into the walls of a for- tress, and were delivered over to us ? — Yes ; and in drawing up an account of those marbles for the Classical Museum, I stated, in the close of the memoir, my hope that some discovery like that which led to the discovery of the remains of the Temple of Victory, in a Turkish bastion, on the Athenian Acropolis, would enable us to find in the fortress more remains of the Mausoleum, and which proved to be the case. 3293. Is there anything more, in your opinion, to be found in Halicarnassus, or with reference to the Mausoleum, supposing means to be placed at your disposal by the Government to do all that you desire to do ? — So far as sufficient means and time were required, they were given to me, and all has been done that I considered it was desirable to do at that time ; but if, at any future time, certain houses which still remain upon the site can be purchased for a reasonable sum, I certainly think it would be worth the while of a great nation to finish that excavation for the chance of finding more sculpture, however slender that chance might be. 3294. Is there any vice-consul at Budrum who could keep his eye on that matter ? — No. I should recommend in that case, as I have already had the honour to suggest to the Foreign Office, that the consul at Rhodes, the nearest consul to Budrum, should be instructed to keep his eye upon that place. 3295. In other parts of Greece, have you had sufficient means to make the researches that you desired to make, or have you been restricted by a want of means ? — No ; I should say that the means granted me were not at all limited. 3296. But you still think, do you not, that by the use of some further means and some skill, additional treasures may be discovered and brought to the British Museum -from those countries ? — I have no doubt of it. I think that I was of great service to the vice-consul at Rhodes last year, by purchasing part of his antiquities, as I have already stated. He probably gained ultimately 500/, or 6007. by his speculation, a large sum for the Levant. I think that when such facts as these become known in the Levant, other consuls and other speculators will try the experiment. I may mention the case of the Dardanelles ; that is a very rich country in antiquities. 3297. Do you think that in considering the question of the accommodation at the British Museum, we must entertain a reasonable expecta- tion that accessions of great value will be obtained from Greece, from the islands, or from the Morea ? — From Turkey, but not from Greece. I think that the Greeks, for the reasons that were stated by Sir Thomas Wyse, would not allow large ob- jects to leave their country, unless they were smuggled away ; and small objects get dispersed and broken. 3298. Mr. Puller.] Were those 120 inscriptions to which you have referred obtained in one place, or from various quarters ? — From various quarters, in the course of seven years. A very interesting collection was dug up in the island of Calymnos, upon the site of a Greek temple, with the aid of funds furnished to me by Lord Stratford de Red- cliffe ; it was a private venture of his own, and a large portion was obtained in the Budrum ex- pedition. And then, in the course of my official residence in the islands of Mitylene and Rhodes, I picked up, through the influence which all consuls have, other things. 3299. You are anxious to see those and the other inscriptions in the British Museum brought together in one .collection, and properly arranged in a place with sufficient light, and where they could be seen? — Yes. 3300. Those are objects that would rather in- terest the scholar than the general public? Yes. _ 3301. Do you see any objection to the inscrip- tions being placed on the basement floor, lighted by skylight?— No, I think not. I should thin k they might be very well there. 3302. With regard to the separation of the medieval collections, do you consider the object of the Kensington Museum to be the education of artists and artisans ?— Yes ; that would appear, as far as I can tell, to be their primary object ; the application of those examples of fine art and ap- plied art to the education of the artisan. 3303. In making purchases I presume they would have regard to that object primarily ?— Yes I think so. 3304. At the British Museum, I presume, the primary object is the preservation of objects that throw light on history ?— Yes, it would be; and, of course, as the history of art itself is a part of human history, that principle would contain every- thing. J 3305. Still they are different objects; many objects might be of value as illustrating history, which would not be of any great value for the purpose of educating artists ? — Certainly ; but I think SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 207 think in most cases they would be found to belong to the same class ; that there is a connection be- tween mere historical antiquities and with works of art, and that it would be desirable to have them all together. 3306. Is there any collection of brasses at either of the Museums? — I am not aware of any at the British Museum. At South Kensington is a collection of rubbings. 3307. They are valuable, are they not, as show- ing costume ?— Yes ; I consider that they are valuable on many accounts, as regards the parti- cular personages whose names they bear, and as showing costume, and to a certain extent as works of art. 3308. I mean sepulchral brasses ? — Yes. I think they are of very considerable interest. 3309. Mr. Ayrton.\ Would the actual number of the objects, which are exhibited for their beauty, as works of art, be large or small as compared with the number that would be exhibited on account of their archaeological interest in any collection such as you have described ? — That would depend upon the particular period to which the question refers. If it applies to the middle ages, strictly so called, I should imagine that there would be many more objects desirable, as works of art, than objects of which the sole interest was historical. 3310. Will you be good enough to define what you mean by objects of which the sole inte- rest was historical ? — It is difficult to define what is meant by objects with an historical interest as dis- tinct from others ; even if we take the most indi- vidual specimen, such as the sword which I men- tioned of Hugh Lupus, the Earl of Chester, there is, if I remember, piece of enamel, in the hilt which would be a part of a series of enamels. 3311. I mean objects that would tend to culti- vate the eye, and refine the taste for art ; would they predominate over other objects ? — I should imagine that the objects of the highest art, in the middle ages, would be few in comparison with the others, not the decorative. C. T. Nevttan, Esq. 12 July i860. Edgar Alfred Bowring, Esq., called in; and Examined. 3312. Sir George Grey.] Are you Secretary to the Royal Commissioners for the Exhibition of 1851?— Yes. 3313. Are you well acquainted with the land belonging to those Commissioners in the neigh- bourhood of Kensington ? — Perfectly. 3314. Have you a plan of that land? — .Yes. I have brought it here to hand in to the Commit- tee {the same being handed in). This is the same plan as that which has alreadybeen laid before Par- liament by the Commissioners in one of their Reports, and it has also been made use of in another Report of the National Gallery Site Com- missioners. 3315. Of what number of acres does the whole of that land consist; how much of it has been appropriated, either permanently or temporarily, and how much of it now remains, and in what position, that is unappropriated? — The total ex- tent of the land originally purchased by the Com- missioners was about 86 acres ; of that amount 12 acres have been taken by the Government for the department of Science and Art. 3316. When you say taken by the Government for the department of Science and Art, have those 12 acres been permanently appropriated to that object? — Yes, pursuant to clause 2 of the Act 21 & 22 Vict. c. 36. By an agreement with the Horticultural Society, 22^ acres, in the centre of the main square of the estate, are leased to the Horticultural Society, and a space of about 16£ acres, to the south of that land, is proposed by the Commissioners to be lent to the Society of Arts for the purposes of an Exhibition in 1862; and they have made a proposal which, if carried into effect, will have the effect of reserving that land till the year 1872, that is, for a further period of 10 years after the Exhibition of 1862 ; and therefore, for the moment, that must be considered as appro- priated. I think that about 12 acres have been devoted to roads ; there are eight or nine acres in Outlying pieces of land, which are all shown on the plan I have handed in, and which have been let for building purposes, leaving a space, in round numbers, of between 14 and 15 acres in the main square, which are at present unappropriated. 3317. Do those 14 or 15 acres lie together, or are they separate portions of the ground; or will 0.96. you point out on the plan where those unappro- priated acres are situated (the Witness pointed out the same to the Committee) 1 — The unappropriated land lies partly on the east side of the estate, partly on the west side, and partly on the north, fronting the Kensington-road. 3318. Are those parts co-terminous, or are they distinct and separate? — The west and northern parts maybe considered co-terminous; between the north and the east parts a small property of two acres, belonging to Lord Auckland, called Eden Lodge, intervenes. 3319. What is the area of those respective lots of land ? — I have laid out on this plan the exact extent of each piece of land in square feet. 3320. Will you mark upon that plan the por- tions of land which are now unappropriated ?— They are already marked; and include all the space on the main square lying to the east, west, and north of the arcades inclosing the Horticul- tural Gardens. 3321. What is the acreage of those separate portions of land ; take the east side to begin with ? — On the east side there is, first of all, over the entrance to the Horticultural Gardens, a space which is retained by the Commissioners : only a small space, however, is available there for the purposes of building. To the north of the entrance to the gardens, on the east side, there are about 141,000 square feet in a solid block, representing about three acres and a quarter. Then there is a narrow strip higher up, to the east of Lord Auck- land's, which contains about 12,000 square feet. On the west side you have 10,500 square feet, or a quarter of an acre, over the entrance to the gar- dens, available for public buildings ; and about 250^000 square feet in round numbers, or about six acres to the north of that again. The total acreage in round numbers, running up from the Horticultural entrance, on the west side, to the Kensignton road, is about six acres and a half. The remaining space, containing five or six acres, has its frontage to the Kensington road. 3322. Has any communication been made to the Commissioners by the Trustees of the British Museum respecting the acquisition of that land, or any part of it, for the reception of portions of the collections in the Museum ? — None whatever. . c C 4 The E. A. Bowring, Esq. 208 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E. A. The only information possessed by the Commis- Bowring, sioners on the subject is derived from the Par- Esq. liamentary Paper which I hold in my hand, and which came to them in the usual way, after pub- is July lication. i860. 3323. Do you refer to the Parliamentary Paper ordered by the House of Commons to be printed on the 15th February 1860, No. 87?— Yes. 3324. Have you read the Eeport, contained in page 11 of that Paper, from a special committee of the Trustees of the British Museum ? — Yes. 3325. Has your attention been called to the supposed value of the land in the statement of which you have now been speaking? — I have noticed that statement ; and on seeing it, I felt it my duty to bring the Paper under the notice of the Commissioners. 3326. I need not ask you, then, whether that Report was made, so far as that paragraph is con- cerned, by any authority derived from the Com- missioners? — The statement in that Paper as to the average cost of the land is unauthorised by the Commissioners. 3327. Can you state what the cost price of that land was ? — The statement there much understates the cost of the land when it puts it at 5,000 Z. an acre. 3328. Would the Commissioners be disposed, if they were requested, to dispose of that land which is now unappropriated, for the purposes of the British Museum, or any part of its collections ? — The position which the Commissioners hold is this; they are quite ready, when the public desire it, to receive proposals for devoting the unappro- priated part of their estate to public purposes, and to entertain favourably such proposals ; but they themselves have no proposals to make, and they have never originated any, for the occupation of this land, beyond indicating generally, when they first announced to the Crown their purchase of the estate, the manner in which it might be laid out. 3329. What is the marketable value of the un- appropriated portion of that land? — I should be understating it when I put it at 20,000 I. an acre. 3330. That is the price which might now be obtained in the market for it, by the Commis- sioners ? — Certainly ; it is not a merely theoretical assumption, but we have actually disposed of a piece of land exactly opposite, of about two acres and a-half, on lease, for a sum which represents that amount per acre. 3331. Have the Commissioners hypothetically entertained the question of selling any part of it for any public object ; and if so, have they fixed any price for that land, supposing it to be appro- priated to a public object? — In consequence of having brought under their notice this Parlia- mentary Paper, No. 87, they thought it very pro- bable that some questions would arise out of it ; and therefore they deemed it right to take into consideration the question as to what price they would be prepared to take for this land, if appli- cations were made to them on the subject. 3332. At what decision did they arrive ? — The decision which the Commissioners arrived at as to the price they would dispose of it, for the public object in question was, that the price to be asked should be 10,000 1, an acre, and 5,000 /. per acre for that portion where the necessity of arching over the ground, under the agreement with the Horticultural Society, would leave no ground- floor space available. 3333. What portion of it would be sold at 10,000 Z. per acre, and what portion at 5,000 /. per acre ? — The greater part of it would be sold at 10,000 /. per acre ; and the part that would be sold at 5,000/. an acre seems to be about a quarter of an acre. 3334. Mr. Ayrton.~\ Those parts marked, " en- trance " ? — It is the part on the west side, ovei* the entrance to the. Horticultural Society, and on the east side at the'same rate. I should state that a part of the land on the north side, fronting the Kensington road, is occupied by houses held un- der leases, which would have to be bought up, to render the whole frontage to that road imme- diately available for public buildings, and the Commissioners have not yet considered that ques- tion. 3335. Sir George Grey.] Mr. Cole stated that the 12 acres which are now appropriated, in the South Kensington Museum, to the department of Science and Art, were bought at 5,000 Z. an acre ; are you aware that that was so? — The Commis- sioners and the Government formerly held the estate in joint partnership ; and when it was re- solved to dissolve that partnership, under the powers of the Act of 1858, the Government pre- ferred to take part of their share in money, and part in land. They wished to retain the 12 acres referred to by you, at their cost price, and to re- ceive the balance of their advances in cash in pur- suance of the provisions of the Act. Now, as respects the question of cost price of the land, I need not say that, in a case of dissolving partner- ship, where two partners originally advanced an equal share of capital, which has been lying un- productive during the partnership, and where it is stipulated that the retiring partner is to receive back his original capital only, the sum to be repaid him by his partner is very different from the sum which any third person would have to pay him in purchase of his interest in the capital of the concern. No question arises, for example, as to interest be- tween partners, in the case I have put, whereas with any third party the question of interest on capital arises. In the second place, those 12 acres which the Government took, very much resembled in their general character, the whole of the estate ; they consisted of a certain amount of frontage, but the greater part of the 12 acres is back ground ; the same is the case with the Commissioners' estate, taken as a whole, and the cost price per acre of these 12 acres may fairly be taken as the same as that of the whole property But on the other hand this piece of land which the Commissioners can dispose of for the purposes of the British Museum, consists entirely of frontage, and not only that, but double frontage, to a very broad road on one side, and 'to the Horlicultural Gar- dens on the other ; that frontage, therefore is in finitely more valuable than the back ground. The statement of the cost price per acre of the whole, when applied to the mere frontage, is entirely deceptive; in the case of the Government 12 acres, it was frontage and back ground mixed up equally; in this case it is all frontage. 3336. Mr. Ayrton.] You have stated that some part of this ground has been ascertained to be worth 20,000 Z. per acre by experiment, what part of it was that ?— It is the plot on the west side of Prince Albert's Road, and to the south of Gore Road ; that is let on lease for 99 years to Mr. Whatman, late Member for West Kent. 3337. Chairman.] Is that the piece of land next to Lord Harrington's ?— In front of Lord Harrington's, and next to Mr. Alexander's. 3338. Mr. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 209 3338. Mr. Ayrton.\ That is let at a ground rent which is equivalent in value to 20,000 /. per acre? — Yes, as nearly as possible. 3339. Then you assume that the building frontage on the opposite side of the same road, Prince Albert's-road, would be of the same value ? — To avoid any risk of overstating its value, I have only assumed it to be of the same value ; I have the authority of our surveyor for the figures I have given. 3340. The building frontage along the Ken- sington-road would be of the same value, and along the Exhibition-road ? — The building value along the Kensington-road would be very much greater, and along the Exhibition-road the same value as along Prince Albert's-road. 3341. What is the estimated value of that land by the test you have given the Committee of 20,000 /. an acre ? — It depends upon the extent of acreage required ; and I have no data to enable me to know what extent of land is proposed to be taken for the British Museum, except what appears from this Parliamentary Paper, where five acres are spoken of. 3342. With regard to the frontage, it is one given depth of land at the price computed ? — In the case of Mr. Whatman's land it was so much per foot frontage. 3343. What was the value per foot ? — £. 3 per foot, with the same depth as nearly as possible, 200 feet deep. 3344. You estimate on Prince Albert's-road, and on the Exhibition-road, that the frontage with 200 feet deep would be worth 2 /. a foot per annum ? — At least 3 /. 3345. And in the Kensington-road it would be worth something more ? — I think that cannot be put at less than 4 /. a foot. 3346. You have stated that what is called the centre of the estate would not be of so much value, because it would not have such a frontage ; but supposing roads were cut through this property from Kensington to Brompton, the same as Prince Albert's-road, and Exhibition-road, the frontage would be as good, would it not, in any of those streets, as in those which now exist? — You could not make such broad streets in the centre, without cutting up the property. The great existing roads bound the estate, and you could not sacrifice the amount of space that would be required for fresh roads intersecting the estate; that we have devoted to those already made by us. 3347. If you did make a road as broad, the frontage would be as valuable, would it not? — I apprenend that it could not be of the same value there. 3348 . What would be the difference in a road from the Kensington-road to Brompton, between the Exhibition-road and Prince Albert's-road, and those two. roads? — I think no surveyor would advise the Commissioners to intersect that ground with another great road, between those two roads; it would injure the property, which is laid out upon the principle of erecting buildings only round the edges of the main square, leaving the centre unbuilt upon ; the same principle, in fact, as that adopted in the case of the Louvre at- Paris, and in the case of the great London squares, such as Bclgrave and Eaton squares. 3349. Sir George Grep.~\ Could it be done, considering the appropriation which has. actually been made for the Horticultural Society, and for the purposes of the Exhibition in 1862 ? — No. 3350. Mr. Ayrton.~\ You have given a certain 0.96, part of this estate to the Horticultural Society for E. A. 30 years ? — It is on lease for 31 years, and renew- Bowring^ able for 31 years. Esi\. 3351. And without paying any rent unless they ~ make a profit? — Precisely. 12 Rfi 3352. Under what conditions are they to ensure their making any profit ; are they under any con- ditions to the Commissioners ? — Yes ; we have an agreement with them whereby such control is re- tained over the property by the Commissioners as gives them reason to think that it may be a profitable arrangement. 3353. The Commissioners then claim an abso- lute right to give the Government this land upon any terms they please ? — Certainly. 3354. Have they completed the dissolution of partnership with the Government? — They com- pleted it in the month of January 1859. 3355. They paid the Government half the pur- chase money ? — Yes. 3356. Which I think was repaid without in- terest ? — Yes, but with the addition of a moiety of the rents received during the partnership. 3357. How much did they repay? — They re- paid upwards of 120,000/. in cash, and the re- maining 60,000 /. was taken by the Government in land. 3358. And there was left to the Commissioners the rest of the land ? — Yes. 3359. Did not the Commissioners then repre- , sent to the Government, and through the Govern- ment to the House of Commons, that what Government received was equal in value to what the Commissioners retained? — Not at all; the basis of the arrangement, as shown in the Act of 1851, was, that the Commissioners were to re- turn to the Government the exact sum in pounds, shillings, and pence, which the Government had advanced; viz. 181,379/. 4s. 2d., including rents received, less the value of the 12 acres retained by them for the Department of Science and Art. The very figures are stated in the Act. 3360. Without interest?— Yes. 3361. Was not that arrangement made on the representation that what the Commissioners re- tained was of no more value than that which they gave to the Government? — Certainly not; the proposal df the Commissioners was to the effect that as the partnership hampered them in their free action, it was better to dissolve the part- nership. 3362. If they asked the Government to take their money, without interest, was not that asked on the representation that the land which the Commissioners retained was not of more value, after paying the amount in cash, which you have mentioned, than that, which the Government re- ceived ? — Certainly not ; there was no such un- derstanding. The Commissioners represented that the estate had been purchased jointly by the Go- vernment and themselves, for the development of a particular scheme, but that the absence of any decision on the part of the Government for many years, as to the national institutions for which sites were to be provided on the estate, precluded the Commissioners from taking any active steps them- selves towards realising the objects of their incor- poration. They therefore proposed the dissolu- tion of partnership on terms which, under the circumstances, were considered fair and equitable on both sides, and which, moreover, subsequently received the approval of Parliament. 3363. Sir George Grey.~\ Can you state to the Committee the inducement which influenced the D d Commissioners 210 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE i860. E. A. Commissioners in deciding to sell this land to the Bowring, Government for a public object, if requested to Esq- do so, at a lower price than the market value ? — ~ The Commissioners consider the British Museum ia July j. Q k e an i m p 0r tant national institution; and if Parliament wished to remove any part of the col- lections of the British Museum to Kensington, it would be only carrying out the spirit of their original Report to give them every facility for so doing. They felt that they should not deal with the question as if it were merely a mercantile transaction. 3364. Have you formed any opinion as to the convenience of the site, and whether it is suitable, generally speaking, for a public exhibition? — I have already been examined, on two separate oc- casions, upon this subject, as to the attendance of the public at various institutions, and I have quoted in evidence certain figures which seemed to show that the supposed distance of the site from the Metropolis was no interference with the accessi- bility of those institutions to the public. 3365. Have you formed that opinion from the fact of the large number of persons who visit the Kensington Museum? — It was founded on the statistics of the number of persons who attended the different institutions established for purposes of recreation and instruction, whether in the neighbourhood of this ground or elsewhere. 1 gave in to the National Gallery Committee in 1853, and to the National Gallery Site Commis- sion in 1857, a table showing for a series of years the attendance of the public at different institutions which may be called in London, and at those which are rather farther off; and the result showed con- clusively that the mere distance from the heart of London is no obstacle to their accessibility. 3366. Have you had any means of ascertain- ing whether the persons who visit those institu- tions, and the visitors who come to the South Kensington Museum, are of the same class, and come from the same districts as those who visit the British Museum? — I believe that, as respects the South Kensington Museum, the great differ- ence is, that the proportion of the working classes who go there is larger than those who go anywhere else. I have been informed by a large employer of labour, who comes much in contact with the working classes of London, that they consider the South Kensington Museum as the greatest boon that has ever been conferred upon them by Par- liament and Government. 3367. Mr. Ayrton.] Can you give the name of the person to whom you have alluded ? — 1 perhaps need not mention the name ; I state the fact. 3368. Where does he carry on business? — He is foreman to a very large builder in the south- west end of London. 3369. Where does he carry on business? — The business is now being wound up; it was the greatest firm in London. 3370. Was it a firm that failed ?— No. I have really no objection to state my authority, if the Committee desire it ; it was the foreman of the late Mr. Cubitt. 3371. Mr. Cubitt being largely concerned in building in that neighbourhood ? — Not at all ; he had no connexion whatever with it. 3372. Was that the Mr. Cubitt who was en- gaged in building houses in the neighbourhood of Belgrave-square ? — It was the Mr. Cubitt who died two years before the South Kensington Museum was established, and who built Bel- gravia, but who had no connexion whatever with the neighbourhood of South Kensington. 3373. Sir George Grey.~\ Are you aware of any increased means of access that are in contempla- tion to that district, by which means the working classes could come to South Kensington with greater facility than they do now? — I am not aware of there being any intention to open any fresh access, the present access being so very con- venient,. . The public leave the London streets, and cross the London parks, and soon arrive at the site. ■3374. From the east of London ? — Yes. 3375. Is not that a very long distance for them to walk ? — Mr. Cubitt, in his evidence before the National Gallery Committee, stated it as his opinion, from his intimate knowledge of the work- ing classes, a large number of whom were em- ployed under him,- that when working men go to visit these public institutions, they make a half- holiday of it, and they like to take their wives and children with them, and enjoy themselves in the fresh air. It is an additional attraction to them if any institution of this kind, instead of being in the heart of London, is a little way removed from it, where not only they get fresh air, but a pleasant prospect, and have the enjoyment of the parks, and so on. 3376. Mr. Ayrton.] According to your view, when the public go to see the objects in the Mu- seum, it is a matter of interest-to them to have a pleasant prospect out of the window ? — It cer- tainly very much adds to the enjoyment of the working classes, to have these museums in a plea- sant situation. 3377. Is there any pleasant prospect out of the windows at Brompton ? — I do not allude in the least to South Kensington ; I am talking gene- rally. 3378. Is there any pleasant prospect out of the windows at Brompton ? — There is a pretty garden at the side, but I do not allude to that at all. I may mention a case exactly in point ; only yester- day evening I was in Kensington Gardens, and I saw a large party there headed by a band of their own, enjoying themselves in the gardens. 3379. They went to enjoy nature, I presume, and the scenery of the gardens ?— I may perhaps be allowed to finish the sentence. On asking the man who seemed to act as conductor, who these persons were, he stated that they were connected with some institution (I did not catch the name) at Kennington ; that they had taken a half holiday to spend at the South Kensington Museum, to which they had walked in procession a distance of four miles, and they were winding up the even- ing by going into Kensington Gardens, which are in the immediate neighbourhood. 3380. That observation of yours would equally apply to persons visiting the Crystal Palace, would it not ?— Precisely. 3381. Then, on the same theory, it would be just as possible to put the whole collection at the Crystal Palace as at the Kensington Museum, where there is a very pleasant prospect, and a considerable distance to go, which would give all the advantages which you seem to think are sought for in making a pleasant holiday ?— The figures, as to the attendance of the public at the Crystal Palace, greatly exceeding a million a year, show that its distance from London does not prevent people from going thereto enjoy the exhibition, and this carries out my statement that the mere distance from the heart of London, or what has been SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 211 been called the non-accessibility of an institution, is not such a matter as to interfere with the at- tendance of the public. 3382. Are you aware that Mr. Cubitt's work- men resided at Chelsea, for the most part, and largely in the neighbourhood of Westminster, where small houses are to be found ? — I do not know at all where they resided. 3383. There is a considerable population of working people, is there not, in Westminster and in Chelsea ? — Yes. 3384. Are you aware whether the people come more than once in the course of 12 months to visit the South Kensington Museum ? — I have no personal knowledge on the point. I have been informed, however, that the police state that they are almost all new faces. 3385. Have you taken any means to ascertain at all the classes of people who visit the South Kensington Museum? — No, the Commissioners have no connexion with that Museum. 3386. Are you aware of the number of adults, as compared with the number of children, who go there ? — No. 3387. Are you aware of the class of persons who go there of an afternoon, or on the Wednes- day, Thursday, and Friday ? — Those are the close days, when they obtain admission only on the payment of sixpence ; the attendance is com- paratively small on what are called students' days. 3388. Then the open admission is on Mon- day ? — Monday, in the morning and evening ; Tuesday, morning and evening ; and Saturday morning. 3389. On Saturday morning what class of people go there ? — I do not know. 3390. On Monday, do you know the propor- tion of people who visit the South Kensington Museum as compared with other days ? — I believe on Monday and Tuesday there is a larger attend- ance, and on Monday the greatest of all. 3391. In the evening is the attendance greater than in the morning? — It is nearly equally divided, but rather greater in the morning, on the whole. I have a table here, showing in each year, from 1850 to 1859, the number of visitors to the Science and Art Department's Museum, to the British Museum, the National Gallery, the Vernon Gallery, the Zoological Gar- dens, Kew Gardens, and Hampton Court Palace. 3392. Sir George Grey.~] Will you be good enough to hand it in. ( The same was handed in.) 3393. Mr. Ayrton.~] Are you aware of any exhibition in London with which you can make a just comparison with regard to opening the exhi- bition in the evening ? — I am not aware that any other national exhibition is opened in the evening. 3394. Then the comparison you have made is not one that is based upon a comparison of analo- gous circumstances : it is merely a comparison of numbers without reference to circumstances? — It is only in the last three or four years that the South Kensington Museum has existed ; my table goes back to the year 1850, and it was pre- pared for a Parliamentary Committee before the Museum existed, and not to show the atten- dance at that Museum. In the case of the other institutions mentioned in the table, there is that analogy, as none of them are open in the evening. 3395. I see that there was a very large in- crease from 1857 to 1858 ; to what do you ascribe that large increase ? — Up to the middle of 1857 0.96. i860. those collections were at Marlborough House ; it E. A. was not till June that they were removed to the Bowring, South Kensington Museum, and therefore the Esq. increase only relates to the second half of the year; whereas, in the last two years, 1858 to 12 July 1859, there appears to have been a normal attend- ance of about 500,000 a year, and I understand that the same rate is maintained during the pre- sent year. 3396. The collection of paintings was removed from Marlborough House at that time, was it not? — No, they have only lately been removed, 3397. Sir George Grey.'] What other collec- tions do you speak of as having been removed in the middle of 1857 ? — The Museum of the Science and Art Department. 3398. Mr. Ayrton.~] The Kensington Museum is in close proximity, is it not, to a large and idle population ? — I am not aware of that. 3399. I mean the population of Belgravia and that neighbourhood, which is to a very large extent an unoccupied population? — Certainly my own exjjerience of the visitors to that Museum is, that by far the larger proportion is not of that class, and that a very small proportion indeed of the 500,000 are persons belonging to the upper classes. 3400. Refreshments are supplied, I believe, at' the Museum ? — I believe so. 34T>1. Do you know whether there is any great consumption of refreshments ? — I am not prepared with any evidence upon that subject. 3402. There are no refreshments supplied at any other exhibition of a national character ? — I do not remember; but in the neighbourhood there are public-houses, and so on. 3403. But not in the Exhibition, or in imme- diate connection with it ? — No. 3404. What is the exact distance of the South Kensington Museum from the Bank of England ? — I should think it is somewhere over four miles. I hold in my hand a paper which has been de- livered this Session, showing the number of visitors to the National Gallery last year, and to the Vernon Gallery; and the note states : " The expected re- moval of the National Gallery British School to South Kensington greatly diminished the number of visitors to Marlborough House during the whole of the year 1859." That observation certainly seems inconsistent with the correctness of the assumption that the removal to Kensington renders the pictures less accessible to the public, seeing that immediately they were removed, the atten- dance largely increased, and that in the very next month after the removal to South Kensington, upwards of 50,000 persons visited those collections. 3405. You have not got an account of the num- ber of persons who visit the Museum on the Mondays and Tuesday when it is free, in the morning ? — I was looking just now at one of the reports of the Science and Art Department, and it states that the morning visitors are rather in excess of the evening visitors ; they are nearly equally divided. I ought to state, with regard to a question that was asked by the Honourable Member for the Tower Hamlets, as to the dissolution of the partnership between the Commissioners and the Government, and any question of the increased value of the land connected therewith, that the land which the Government had taken for 60,000 /. was then worth 90,000 1., clearly showing that there was no question of increased value involved in dis- solving partnership, on one side or the other. 3406. What is your impression of the basis on dd2 which. 212 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE E. A. Esq. 12 July i860. * which the money was repaid by the Commissioners, and the number of acres taken by the Government as the half of their interest in this estimate ? — The Commissioners carried out precisely what the Act of Parliament ordered them to do. 3407. What is your impression of the basis on which that Act of Parliament was passed with re- gard to the relative value of the interest of the Government and of the Commissioners? — I am under the impression that the Government were to be repaid the exact amount of their advances, whatever they may have been. 3408. Without any reference to the value of the property ? — Yes ; interest would have been charged to the Commissioners, if they had delayed payment, but they made the payment in time. 3409. What is the value of the frontage on the estate you have named, in the three roads, the Prince Albert's-road, the Exhibition-road, and the Kensington-road ? — About 3 I. a foot per anuum, I have assumed. 3410. The total value ? — It entirely depends upon the extent of land proposed to be taken. 3411. Can you state in gross the total value ? — On Prince Albert's-road there appears to be about 1,400 feet frontage; the upper portion is cer- tainly worth more than 3 /. a foot ; I might have assumed about 4 I. probably, — that is per foot per annum ground-rent. 3412. Sir' George Grey.~] Is the depth of that land marked on the map '! — The depth is 200 feet. 3413. Mr. Fuller.'] Prince Albert's-road is 1,400 feet : can you give the length of the other roads ? — There appears to be 800 or 900 feet avail- able in Exhibition-road. 3414. There is another, is there not, the Crom- well-road ? — The north frontage is in the Kensing- ton-road, and the frontage at present available, without pulling down any houses, is about 600 feet there. If those houses were removed, 1,000 feet frontage would be obtained. 3415. Mr. Turner.] I suppose there is no doubt that there will be a very large profit to somebody from this purchase of the Kensington Gore estate, as to the value of it ?— If it were disposed of as a mercantile speculation, certainly. The Commis- sioners, however, hold it for a very different pur- pose. I know, referring to the centre square alone, that its present value is estimated at 500,000/. and upwards, for the whole of the great square. 3416. Then the Government, who went into partnership with the Commissioners, will derive no benefit whatever from that profit ? — The Govern- ment have been repaid the whole of their advances. 3417. Yes, but without interest? — Yes; but they have got for 60,000 I. a piece of land worth at the time, at least 90,000/., and, 1 should say, now worth about 100,000 /. 3418. Mr. Ayrton.] But they paid for that land more than it originally cost, for the joint under- taking ? — No ; they did not pay more than the original cost. 3419. Did they take it at the cost price? — Yes. 3420. Mr. Puller.] That was above the average, was it not? — On the contrary; I have shown that the sum of 5,000 /. per acre, stated as the average cost of the estate, is much understated. The Right Honourable Sir Thomas Wyse, called in ; and Examined. Right Hon. Sir T. Wyse. 3421. Chairman..] You are our Minister at Athens ? — Yes, Envoy and Minister. 3422. How long have you been there ? — About 11 years. 3423. During the time that you have been at Athens, have you paid much attention to the anti- quities in that locality ?■ — 1 have paid continual attention to the antiquities at Athens, and in other parts of Greece, as opportunities may have offered. 3424. Mr. Moncliton Milnes.] During the period of your residence at Athens, have there been con- siderable excavations of Greek antiquities ? — Ex- cavations have been carried on from time to time both in Athens and other parts of Greece, but principally in Athens ; and the zeal for these in- quiries has considerably increased of late, espe^- cially within the last two years. 3425. Will you state to the Committee what are the laws of the country as to the exportation of antiquities ? — The law prohibits the exportation of works of ancient art, inscriptions, sculptures, and vases, without the permission of the Government ; that permission is seldom accorded; never without the report of the Director of Antiquities. 3426. Do you believe that any considerable quantity of antiquities is illicitly exported? — Many private excavations are carried on in various parts of Greece, espcially of sepulchral monu- ments, which are so numerous, and so scattered, that it would be impossible even for a more vigi- lant Government and a larger staff to prevent either their excavation or their exportation; I believe that a large portion of the description of antiqui- ties they contain, such as vases, lamps, &c, is fre- quently exported, and will continue to. be so for the future ; Avith regard to statues and inscriptions, they being of a heavier material, and of greater magnitude, the Government can exercise a control much more effective ; and I think it is difficult, and almost hopeless, to expect that any large amount of works of art of the nature just referred to can find its way to Europe without the approbation of the Government.'' 3427. What is the present operation of the laws with regard to the conservation and protec- tion of antiquities ? — The law, as it now stands, as well as I can recollect it, requires that when in the excavation of a house, or by any casual circum- stance, any ancient work is discovered, the Govern- ment must be informed of the fact, and its attention be called to the propriety of sending such Avork to a public museum, or allowing it to remain in the possession of the discoverer. The manner in which this law is required to be executed throAvs con- siderable impediments in the Avay of discovery; the discoverer is required to make a report, in the first instance, to the Police and to the Director of Antiquities; the Director must consult the Minis- ter of the Interior as Avell as the Minister of Instruction, and until their consent has been ob- tained the building is not aliowed to go on ; the practical consequence of this is, that in many instances the builder, not wishing to lose time and the opportunity of continuing his house, neglects to make the communication, or in some instances, I fear, takes every means to elude it; the natural result of which is that many works of interest to science and archaaology in general, have remained buried in the foundations of houses, and are not likely to come to lightfor^a considerable period, if ever. Another effect of the laAV has been, that in SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 213 an consequence of a mistake which the Greek Goverrninent seem to have made from the begin- ning, and continues to make, of allowing building to go on on the site of ancient foundations, the price of the ground in which works of art are de- posited is considerably increased, for the proprie- tors of those grounds, seeing the desire on the^part of the archaeological societies at Athens, or on the part of the Government, to obtain possession of the land, require the question to be submitted to a 4Jury; the jury determines a price much higher than would be accorded under general rules ; and many thus are deterred from attempting excava- tions, which otherwise would have been under- taken, the Government not less so than private individuals. 3428. The effect of these restrictions has been to make it very difficult for you, or any other English agent, to add to any considerable extent to the stores of antiquities in this country? — There are in different parts of Greece considerable remains in the hands of private persons, which might be obtained, provided the Greek Govern- ment could be induced to give its consent ; but the Government, not having as yet a collection completely established, and not knowing what may be the relative value of those remains, some of them being of Greek art, and others of Roman, have for the most part shown an objection, when- ever appealed to on the matter, to allow of the .exportation of any of these monuments ; but it is not impossible, at a later period, when works of art become more numerous in Greece, that many of these and similar remains might be transferred to this country. 3429. Has there been any museum of antiqui- ties established in Athens?— None deserving the name has been yet established; fragments found in different places are arranged in great part, in the locality in which they have been found. A certain number are left exposed to the open air, and to every injury of weather, as in the Parthe- non and in the Temple of Victory ; others again are hidden in subterraneous apartments or cisterns ; others are collected in the Temple of Theseus. They press confusedly one upon the other, and are more or less subject to ill-treatment and dis- figurement. A short time ago a bas relief of one of the Victories in the Temple of Victory was mutilated by a French traveller, said to be the head of an hotel, who had arrived by the Mar- seilles steamer at Athens. The outrage took place almost within view of the soldier who accompanied him. 3430. Have you, during your residence at Athens, transmitted any antiquities to this country ? — I have sent over several casts to this country of such sculptures of the Parthenon as still remain at Athens, and which were considered useful for the completion of our collection in the Museum. I continue, as opportunities are afforded to me by the arrival of " Formatori," who only visit Athens from time to time, to transmit to ■this country casts of such other fragments as may be necessary to explain, or complete what we have at present. 3431. To what institution have you sent them ? — To the British Museum. 3432. Is it therefore probable that the collection in the British Museum will become extended with- in a few years by casts from Greece? — Those casts are not of great size, with the exception of one or two groups of large statues already sent ; for the most part they are in illustration of the Parthenon 0.96. or of other buildings besides the Parthenon, but in Right Hon. connexion with it ; but I do not think it will be Sir T. Wyte, necessary to make large additions for these pur- poses alone. At the same time, it is not impos- 12 July sible that at a future period, as excavations may ' 86*0. be carried on, discoveries may be made, so nume- rous, and so much of the same character, that some of the originals discovered may be ob- tained, especially should the British Museum be willing to make exchanges with the Museums at Athens. There may be eases in which we might wish to exchange some of our Campania or Etruscan vases for Attic, which are less known and less numerous than those of Magna Grajcia, but which are of great interest, in reference not only to art, but to their connexion with Athenian history or mythology. Again, it might happen that in excavations in the plain of Olympia, statues of athletes, especially, might be found in such quantity that the Greek Government 'might not be indisposed to allow us a certain portion. In stating the present feeling of the Greek Govern- ment, I am not of opinion that we are debarred from obtaining, at some future period, from. time to time, gifts or exchanges of the kind I have mentioned. 3433. Have you, in your capacity as Minister at Athens, ever expressed to the Greek Govern- ment any desire for the preservation of the Greek antiquities in that country ? — Both by public despatch,, and almost continuously by private con- versation, I have urged the Greek Government to continue their excavations in every part of Greece, and to abstain, if possible, from allowing buildings te be erected on ancient sites, but to buy them up before they became covered by large and populous towns. I did not confine my efforts to this alone, but for the sake of the preservation of ancient works of art, for the benefit, not of the Greek nation only, but of mankind. I have urged upon them the necessity of constructing, without delay, a proper Museum, which should be adapted not only to the preservation of these monuments, but to the instruction of the Greeks, whether in con- nexion with the university or the arcliEeological societies of the capital, or for the information of the strangers, who from time to time come to Athens, and who are now more than ever inclined to pass there a considerable portion of time. 3434. Have you ever transmitted any request, on the part of the Greek Government, for the restoration of articles of antiquity which we already possess ? — No ; and I have never given the Greeks the idea that we were disposed at any time to restore to them what we have. 3435. Mr. Ayrton.'] Have they ever applied to you upon the subject? — They have never made any formal demand of that description ; but from time to time I have heard in private conversa- tions with Greeks, a desire, and something more than a desire, expressed, a sort of right set up to their restoration, a right which I have always controverted, on the ground that we had pre- served these monuments from destruction, and had not deprived the Greeks of their possession, but the Turks of an opportunity of destroying them, and this view has been further confirmed by what I have seen frequently, as to the monu- ments at present in the hands of the Greeks. Several of these monuments have been defaced from want of care, or from the difficulty of estab- lishing a proper police, or from the general feeling of the population that they were not of the importance that they really are. There is the dd3 monument 214 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Right Hon. monument of Lyskrates ; the greater part of the Sji-2 7 . Wyse, frieze of that interesting building has been lately so chipped as in some cases to be scarcely dis- 12 July cernible; this has been done by young boys who i860. have been in the habit of fighting with stones in that vicinity ; the Greek Government has placed a soldier near, but it appears that he has not done his duty with efficiency. I could give numerous similar instances, which the more enlightened Greeks themselves have noticed and condemned, and which go to show that there is a necessity in the first instance, for a Museum, and for greater vigilance ; and, in the next, that we have rather benefited Greece by carrying off those fragments, and keeping them in our hands, than if we had restored them prematurely to the Greek Govern- ment. 3436. Chairman.] If the English Government were anxious to have an agent, as in the case of Mr. Newton, at Budrum, and Mr. Davis, at Carthage, to make excavations in any particularplace, such as on the site of the temple of Eleusis, would much difficulty be thrown in the way by the Greek Go- vernment? — I do notthink that any great difficulty would be thrown in the way of excavation ; but I do think they would not easily allow of the export- ation of works of art which might be discovered. I speak upon that subject with something like cer- tainty ; some years ago a proposition was made on the part of the Prussian Government to excavate the Plain of Olympia, provided they were allowed a certain share of the works of art that might be discovered ; but the Greek Government declined to accept the proposition ; and it may therefore be inferred that if you were to make a request of a similar nature with reference to Delphi or Orcho- menos, or Corinth, it would certainly not be re- ceived by the Greek Government on such condi- tions. However, there are several objects besides the mere possession of a statue or a bas relief worthy the attention of the excavator ; the determination of the topography of the country, the multiplica- tion or elucidation of inscriptions, but which do not enter into the view, perhaps, of the British Museum. 3437. Mr. Ayrton.] The Greeks have a very strong national feeling at present with regard to the remains of antiquities ? — They have a general theoretical feeling; it is beginning, however, in proportion as education is diffused, to spread out into more practical result. I have travelled over all Greece on horseback, and visited with care all their principal towns. I found in most the com- mencement of a local museum, under the direction of a priest or teacher of the gymnasium, and sometimes of the judges of the peace. I found one at Sparta, another at Megara, and I believe they will gradually become general throughout Greece, although there is a sort of controversy going on between the head Government and these local governments, as to who shall be the future proprietors of these remains. 3438. If we were to get anything from Greece it would probably be that which they did not want to keep ? — What we got might be of great •worth to us, although not so much to them. It might happen that they might have a large number of a particular kind of vase, or statue, such as the Apollo, Mercury, or Athlete statue, which I presume must have been very common in Greece, of interest to us but of minor interest to them, for which I should imagine they would accept objects in exchange. The first necessity in Greece is a Museum, and until it be established, and with it a regular national collection, yovi can hardly deal with the Greek Government on any subject ; this Museum is still in abeyance to a certain degree. 3439. Mr. Tite.] Has Athens itself been pretty well ransacked ; has the Acropolis been well dug over? — Of late the excavations at Athens have been principally directed to the Acropolis; the whole surface of the Acropolis has been cleared ; they have come in most places to the rock, so as to give us a direct assurance that nothing more is to be found, at least on the platform of the Acro- polis. With regard to the ground surrounding the Acropolis, there may be yet a great deal to be done ; but I have little hopes of excavations there, because it has been recently planted, and roads made ; and I presume there will be no attempt to break it up, at least for the present. With regard to other parts of Athens, excavations are going on every day ; a very important one at the theatre of Herodes Atticus has cleared the whole of that theatre; the excavations at the theatre of Bacchus, which have been commenced, are likely to be interesting, but I do not think 'they will produce any statuary remains. The last of any note going on when I left Athens is one which is interesting topographically, the discovery of the Stoa Pcecile, as it is supposed. It was hitherto imagined to have been the Gymnasium of Ptolemy. In a few days not less than 36 inscriptions were dis- covered; but very few remains of statuary worth preserving. 3440. Have the discoveries recently made all been architectural or archaeological ? — Sculptural as well as architectural fragments have been dis- covered, they belonging to a very early period of art, before the building of the present Par- thenon. They are of archaeological as well as artistic interest. 3441. At whose expense were the great exca- vations of the Acropolis made, and the discovery of the Temple of the Wingless Victory ; by the Government? — A great portion of those excava- tions were made at the expense of the Government solely. The excavation at the so-called Gym- nasium of Ptolemy has been made by the Archae- ological Society. The excavation and rebuilding in part of the Temple of the - Wingless Victory dates from an early period, immediately after the- constitution of the kingdom of Greece. 3442. Is this feeling of regard for Greek anti- quities participated in by the natives of the country, or is it due to German influence ? — The natives are n6w beginning, from the spread of education, to entertain a very considerable feeling about it ; it is shown in the renewed activity of the Archaeological Society, which is composed almost exclusively of natives ; they are very zealous in the prosecution of the work, but they have not funds corresponding 40 their zeal. 3443. Who is the president of the Archaeolo- gical Society ?— I think, Mr. Kangota. 3444. Is he a Greek ?— Yes. In the establish- ment of a Museum at Athens, I think every one must feel a deep interest, because without it, it k impossible to collect, arrange, or preserve ancient remains, so as to render them really of use. I made, some time ago, a proposition to the Greek Govern- ment, and sent them in a minute description and plan of the kind of building by which the great purposes of a national museum could be secured. The object I had was not only to preserve art, but at the same time to render it useful to the traveller and SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 215 and to the student in connexion with the Uni- versity; I thought it should be treated historically as well as artistically; arranged in rooms, in such a way as to conduct from one epoch to another. 3445. Mr. Monckton Milnes.~\ Are you an advo- cate for a chronological arrangement in a museum of art? — I think you ought to combine m the ideal of a Museum as many objects as you can; I believe that even artistic knowledge is but of very partial usefulness unless it be accompanied by historical knowledge of the progress of art. I should be disposed, if I were allowed, to construct a Museum in such a manner that the remains of antiquity for which it was destined could be dis- posed of in a chronological order, epoch by epoch ; and whilst I placed the larger objects, such as statues, bas reliefs, in a range of higher halls in the centre, I would have, at each side, cabinets of such a nature as to illustrate each period by minor objects of art, such as vases, gems, monies, coins, andbronzes, which are never examined with greater profit than when placed in correspondence with higher objects of art. Rigrt Hon. Sir T, IVyse. 12 July i860. Mr. Benjamin Hayes, called in ; and Examined. 3446. Mr. Monckton Milnes.] What is your present employment ? — I am a carpenter. 3447. Where do you reside? — In Charles-street, Kensington. 3448. Do the class with whom you are princi- pally acquainted take much interest in the public institutions and in works of art and of nature ? — Yes, they do ; I think they appreciate them highly. 3449. Do you think they are most interested with collections of natural history or collections of what are called works of art? — I should say natural history. 3450. Are you in the habit, when you have time, of attending such exhibitions ? — Yes ; I have been several times lately to the Kensington Museum. 3451. To what exhibitions do you generally go ? — The Kensington Museum and the National Gallery principally. 3452 Those are exhibitions of works of art ? — Yes. 3453. That is perhaps from your own inclina- tion ? — I should prefer natural history. 3454. Have you been in the habit of visitiDg the collections of Natural History in the British Museum ?— No. 3455. Why ? — My time is very limited, and I have gone to Kensington because it was nearer to my home ; I can go there in the evening, after I leave work. 3456. Has the establishment at Kensington been very much appreciated by the working classes in the neighbourhood ? — I think so, very much ; I know it is by the men in the firm that I am with now. 3457. Mr. Ayrton.] Where do those persons chiefly live ? — I think in Chelsea and Pimlico. 3458. Do they appreciate the Kensington Museum, because it is within an easy walking distance for them ? — I have noticed on wet days, when the men have been obliged to knock off work, that they have been very glad to go to those places. 3459. How long does it take them to go to the Kensington Museum from where they live ? — Not five minutes from our works. 3460. They walk there ?— Yes. 3461. Mr. Monckton Milnes.'] Do they gene- rally attend in the day time, or in the evening ? — In the evening generally, unless it is wet weather, so that they cannot walk. 3462. Do you think that the circumstance of being able to visit such institutions in the evening affords facilities for working men to attend them ? — I think so. 3463. Do you think that the working classes generally prefer to go to exhibitions occasionally 0.96. in that way, or to connect it with a holiday, when they have one ? — I think that, generally speaking, they like to go to learn anything that they can, that is within their power. 3464- Would the working classes, in the neigh- bourhood where you live, think it a very great acquisition and advantage if they could get a Museum of Natural History attached to the Ken- sington Institution ? — I should myself, and there- fore I fancy that they would. 3465. Is there at present any collection of na- tural history nearer to Kensington than the British Museum? — None whatever. 3466. Is the number of the working classes who are settled in that part of London very much increasing ? — Very much indeed. 3467. Do you think that South Kensington is a good locality for an exhibition of works of art or of nature, for the use of the working classes ? — I think so, so far as I can judge. 3468. Do you think that every year there are an additional number of the working classes esta- blished in that locality, who regard the Museum at Kensington with considerable interest? — I think so ; as buildings increase there, there are a great number of men coming there, and therefore they must want amusement. 3469. Do you find many of your own class who study natural history?— Not very many. I do not think there are many that can comprehend sufficiently; they have not had sufficient educa- tion; they have not been taught it enough, or seen enough of it. I think they would, if it were placed at their disposal. 3470. Supposing that your friends went to a museum, where there was a natural history collec- tion on one side, and pictures and statues on the other, which would the greater part of them go to ? — I think the greater part of them would go to the natural history. 3471. Therefore you think it would be a very great advantage if there could be a museum of natural history established at Kensington? — I do. 3472. Mr. Ayrton.] Have you ever seen Vic- toria Park ? — Yes. 3473. Do you think it would be any incon- venience to the people who live in your neigh- bourhood if the Museum at Kensington were removed to Victoria Park ? — I do not know about that. 3474. Do you think they could visit it with as much facility if it were at Victoria Park as if it remained where it is ? — Certainly not those about* Kensington. 3475. It would be at such a distance as prac- tically to prevent them from visiting it ? — No ; I think there are many who would not mind the D T> 4 trouble, 2J6 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. trouble, and who would be pleased to go, and £. Hayes, would go, very many. 3476. But you find the British Museum so far 12 July from you, that you do not find much opportunity i860. f going there ? — No ; time with us is precious ; we have none, except after hours. 3477. You find it very inconvenient to get there, do you not? — Yes: 3478. In point of fact you have not been there ? —No. 3479. Which do you think would be the best for working men; that they should be able to vis.it the Museum at South Kensington, when they had a few leisure hours, or that they should make an excursion on a holiday, such as they would make if they were going to see the Crystal Palace? — I think that when they had leisure time they would appreciate it more. 3480. Do you think that for a workman to appreciate anything in the museum, it is necessary for him to see it again and again ? — Yes. 3481. Does he derive the least instruction from visiting a museum just once on a holiday ? — No ; very little. 3482. For the purpose of educating a workman in the ideas of art, or of natural objects as applied to art, is it not necessary for him to see a museum very often ?— Yes. 3483. The only chance that he has of so seeing it would be in his leisure hours ? — Quite so. 3484. Especially if he could go in the evening : — Yes ; the evening is the best time for us. 3485. Is it not an important element that he should not have to pay anything for conveyance hire ? — Yes, it is. 3486. And that he should not lose much time in going there and back ? — Yes. 3487. Mr. Monckton MilnesJ] Would you think it an advantage if collections of this kind were dispersed as much as possible, so as to be acces- sible in different parts of the metropolis ? — Yes. 3488. You do not think it would be an advan- tage, as far as regards the working classes, that they should all be put together in one large build- ing ? — No ; I think that local exhibitions would be better than one general one. 3489. Mr. Tite.~] Where are you principally occupied ? — On the horticultural grounds. 3490. At Kensington ?— Yes. 3491. You are one of the workmen connected with the establishment ? — Yes ; under Mr. Kelk. 3492. Mr. Monckton MilnesJ] Is the establish- ment of the horticultural gardens at Kensington looked forward to with great interest by the people ? — Very great. 3493. Mr. Tite.] Are you a foreman ? — No. 3494. Chairman.'] As far as you are acquainted with the habits of workmen, do they often, on holidays, go out into the country for the purpose of botanising, or collecting insects, or geologising? — I think not; they prefer natural history to any- thing else. 3495. Do they ever go out into the country to- collect insects ? — I do not myself. 3496. Do you know of any who do ? — None. 3497. You are not aware of any collections- being formed by working men in your locality ? — Node whatever. 3498. Mr. Monckton Milnes.~] Do you ever hear of their going into London to visit the British Museum ? — Yes ; I very often hear that they do go; I have heard men speaking of going there very recently. 3499. Do you think that a man who is working, in a town generally prefers going to some place in that town, or going out towards the country ? — I should say that he would go into the country or the suburbs ; he would wish to go there if it is a little excursion combined with something in- structive. 3500. If he could combine the excursion with instruction, you think he would prefer it ? — Yes,. so long as the excursion is not too long. 3501. Mr. Puller.'] I suppose the workmen- generally go when the admission is free? — Yes, quite so ; on Mondays and Tuesdays I think it is. 3502. Supposing it was not free at all, but opened for a penny, would it much prevent them- from going ? — I think not; I think they would go for a trifling charge. 3503. Mr. Monckton Milnes.] Do you think when an exhibition is open, and there is nothing to pay, that they would not sometimes think it not worth going to ? — I do not think that for a. moment. 3504. Mr. Puller.] Do you think they would rather pay a penny to see an exhibition com- fortably, than go free when it was very much crowded?— I do not "think they care very much about comfort. 3505. Mr. Ayrton.] Can you say in what parts of the Metropolis the working men put up who come to London by the excursion trains, for ex- • ample, by the Great Northern, or the London and North Western Railway ? — I cannot tell you. 3506. Do you see in your neighbourhood, for instance, at Kensington, many of those strangers who come up in the excursion trains ; do they put up in your neighbourhood ? — My time is so much engaged that I cannot say. 3507. Mr. Tite.] There must be large masses of workmen located round Somers Town, and that part ? — Yes, there must be. 3508. And again also in the Tower Hamlets, and that neighbourhood ? — Yes, and Bethnal Green. 3509. Mr. Ayrton.] You are aware that the- carpenters of London, those especially engaged in the carving of wood, live in the neighbourhood of Curtain-road and Shoreditch to the number of many thousands ? — Yes ; I do not think to that extent ; they are chiefly cabinet makers. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 217 Luna, 16° die Julii, I860. MEMBERS PRESENT: Mr. Ayrton. Mr. Gregory. Sir George Grey. Mr. Lowe. Mr. Monckton Milnes. Mr. Puller. Mr. Stirling. Mr. Tite. Mr. Turner. Mr. Walpole. Mr. W. H. GREGORY, in the Chair. Antonio Panizzi, Esq., called in ; and further Examined. 3510. Mr. Lowe.] Are you still of opinion that the present situation of the British Museum is as convenient for the inhabitants of the east of London as if it were placed a little further west ? — It seems to me that the evidence of Dr. Hew- lett and Mr. Edgar Bowring puts it in this way : that for the inhabitants of the east of London the British Museum is too far when they have not a whole day to give to it, which is what I have said before. "When they have a whole day to spare, then I think that a mile or two further does not make any difference, and the proof of that is the number of people who go, not only to Kensington, but to the Crystal Palace, and even to other places where they have to "pay, which payment comes to a great deal, and exceeds the expense that would be required to go a little further west than the Museum, by omnibus. Then there is the evidence of the Iiev. Mr. Rogers, who lives in the eastern part of London, and says that his people never think of going to the British Museum, because there are so many things to see there, that it overwhelms them. That is one of the reasons that I have often urged in favour of separation. It seems to me that the British Mu- seum, if it were separated, would be more con- venient for all parties ; visitors say that it is over- whelming to see so many things, because they cause confusion, instead of affording instruction. I believe, that on account of that report of a Com- mittee of the Trustees, in which a comparison is drawn between the value of land near the Museum and that at Kensington, it has been assumed that' the Trustees, or those who advocate separation, wish objects to be removed to Kensington, which is not the case ; it is for the Gevernment, or for the House of Commons, to find out which is the best place to which collections should be removed, Mr. Pennethorne stated in evidence that Bur- lington House would give four times as much space as the collections of natural history now occupy, and that might be perhaps a solution of the difficulty ; but I wish to keep separate the question of separation and the question of where the collections are to go. 3511. A number of witnesses have stated that the majority of the visitors to the British Museum go to see the natural historv collection ; do you 0.96. 16 July i860. agree with that statement ? — I have repeatedly A. Panizzi, stated that I did not believe anybody could form Esq. an opinion, because, when people come into the hall of the British Museum, they may turn any way, either to the antiquities, or to the natural history. If they turn to the natural history collections, you are not sure that they do not go merely through to the antiquities, and vice versa. Since I was examined on the last occasion, I have been thinking how one could ascertain whether really there were more people going to visit the natural history collections, or to the art department, in- cluding the Library, not the reading room ; and it occurred to me that, if, at the same moment, there were persons in all the departments count- ing how many people were there, at the same moment, and if that were done for several days together, it might fairly be shown whether there were more persons, if there is any difference, going to the one division than to the other ; that has been done during four weeks on public days ; and the result has been that a majority of persons have beenfound in the departments of art, and not in the natural history department. 3512. Mr. Walpole.] By the department of arts do you mean the sculptures ? — Yes; and the King's library, the manuscripts, and up stairs, the vases, and so on ; everything was taken into account ; and, on the other hand, the bird gallery and all the natural history, 3513. Mr. Tite.] And the ethnography?— Yes. 3514. Mr. Walpole.] And the paleontology ? — Yes. 3515. And the mineralogy ? — Yes, everything; and 1 now hand in a separate account of the numbers that were taken on each day ; only on two days was there a slight excess in the na- tural history department and that has gone on for four weeks. I have changed the hour every week ; not that I meant to do so in the first in- stance, as I thought that I might be required to give this evidence sooner. The result is, that there are about seven per cent., as nearly as pos- sible, more in the departments of art than in the natural history department, as the following state- ment will show : E e STATEMENT 2l8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE STATEMENT of the Number of Visitors to the several Public Portions of the British Museum on certain Public Days hereunder mentioned, taken in each Division simultaneously at a given time on each Day, and distinguishing the Number of Visitors to the Natural History Departments from the Number of those to the other Departments. Divis: 1. Friday, 15 June I860, at One o'clock : Comprising the public rooms and galleries on the ground floor and basement, containing the Roman, Greeco-Rornan, Greek, Egyptian, and Oriental antiquities, and num- bered 3, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 24, 25, on Plan No. II., and 1 and 5 on Plan No. I. 2. Comprising on the upper floor the ethnographical, British, and Me- diaeval vase, bronze, and Egyptian rooms, numbered 3, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, on Plan No. III. 3. Comprising the Grenville room, MS. saloon, and King's library, num- bered 58, 50, 52, 51, 50, on Plan No. IT. - - - 4. Comprising the six northern galleries, containing minerals and fossils, and the five northern zoological rooms, numbered from 22 to 32 on Plan No. III. - 5. Comprising the five eastern zoological galleries, the mammalia saloon, the southern zoological gallery, the central saloon, and the two botani- cal rooms, numbered 1 and 35 to 43 on Plan No. III. - 121 "J Saturday, 16 June 1860, at One o'clock : 1. Antiquities, ground and basement 2. ,, upper floor - 3. King's library and MSS. - 4. Natural history, north 5. „ east Monday, 18 June 1860, at One o'clock : 1. Antiquities, ground and basement 69] 2. „ . upper floor - - 75 1 3. King's library and MSS. - - 80j 4. Natural history, north - - 73I 5. „ east - - 126 J Wednesday, 20 June 1860, at One o'clock : 1. Antiquities,groundandbasement 61 2. „ upper floor - - 109 3. King's library and MSS. - - 78 4. Natural history, north 6. „ east - - 1 J Antiquities and Library. Natural History. 86 78 66 101 119 29 224 41 199 248 213 731 673 Difference, 58 excess in antiquities and library. Division. Friday, 22 June I860, at Three o'clock : 1. Antiquities, groundandbasement 125 2. „ upper floor - - 1 1 7 3. King's library and MSS. - - 89 4. Natural history, north - - 112^ 5. „ east - - 183J Saturday, 23 June 1860 : Holiday, in consequence of the Volunteer Review. Monday, 25 June 1860, at Three o'clock : Antiquities, ground and basement 1 52] „ upper floor - - 235 J> King's library and MSS. - - 105J Natural history, north - 1921 „ east - - 245J Antiquities and Library. 331 Natural History. 1. 2. 3. 4. 492 295 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Wednesday, 27 June 1860, at Three o'clock : Antiquities, ground and basement 1 34 „ upper floor - - 13 King's library arid MSS. - - 76j Natural history, north - - 103\ » east - - 212J n 341 437 1,164 315 1,047 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Difference, 117 excess in antiquities and library. Friday, 29 June 1860, at Two o'clock : Antiquities, ground and basement 9 1 ] „ upper floor - - 105} < >7 , King's library and MSS. - - 78 Natural history, north - - 137 „ east - - 174 Saturday, 30 June I860, at Two o'clock : Antiquities, groundandbasement 19 „ upper floor - -28} 64 King's library and MSS. - - 17 Natural history, north - - 1 1 T „ east - . 3Q J Monday, 2 July 1860, at Two o'clock : Antiquities,groundandbasement 104 „. » ,-, u PP erfloor - -169}. 352 King s library and MSS. - - 79 Natural history, north - - 121 ,! east - - 136 Wednesday, 4 July I860, at Two o'clock : Antiquities,groundandbasement 76 v . » ,., upper floor - . 118 l 38C King's library and MSS. - - 92 J Natural history, north - - l\Q\ » east - - i67j 311 47 976 Difference, 78 excess in antiquities and library. 257 283 898 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 219 Division. Friday, 6 July 1860, at Twelve o'clock : 1. Antiquities, ground and basement 69 2. „ upper floor - - 89 > 3. King's library and MSS. - - 72j Antiquities and Library. Natural History. Natural history, north east - 99\ - 159J Saturday, 7 July 1860, Quarter past Twelve : 1 . Antiquities, ground and basement 2. ,, upper floor - - iu > 3. King's library and MSS. - 8j 19 I 4. Natural history, north 5. „ east 16] 230 258 38 52 Division. Monday, 9 July 1860, at Twelve o'clock : 1. Antiquities, ground and basement 70] 2. „ upper floor - - 107 } 3. King's library and MSS. - - 51 Antiquities i NVtural and I Libra]-y. History. 4. Natural history, north 5. „ east - 95~) - 156 J 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Wednesday, 11 July 1860, at Twelve o'clock : Antiquities, ground and basement 69] ,, upper floor - - 112 ; King's library and MSS. ■ Natural history, north east - 59J - 93 1 - 136J 234 240 742 Difference, 18 excess in natural history, Recapitulation. Antiquities and Library. History. First week, at one o'clock Second week, at three o'clock ..... Third week, at two o'clock - Fourth week, at twelve o'clock ..... 731 1,164 976 742 673 1,047 898 760 3,613 3,378 Total difference - 235 excess in Antiquities and Library. 251 229 760 3516. Mr. Tite.] You have taken the numbers for a month ? — Yes ; for four weeks. 3517. Sir George Grey.'] The return you have drawn up gives the actual number of persons found present at the hours mentioned in the return in each of the departments at the Museum ? — Yes. 3518. But it does not give any test of the number of persons who attend during the day ? — No ; but we have an account of that ; that is taken every day, at the end of the day, and we know how many people enter the Museum. - 3519. But you do not know to what depart- ments they chiefly go ? — No. 3520. Mr. Walpole.] You have divided the Museum into two great divisions? — Yes; and those were subdivided ; if there had been only two divisions, two men would have been too long occupied in going round; the important thing- was to have as nearly as possible at the same .hour the different rooms visited, and therefore five gentlemen went round. 3521. Have you any means of ascertaining whether the persons who visit the natural history 0.96. department, after they have done that, go down into any of the departments of art ? — No ; we cannot ascertain that, and that is the reason why it was impossible to say whether there were more people visiting one department than another if they were not counted at the same moment. 3522. Mr. Lowe.] You have heard M. de Ver- neuil's opinion as to the inexpediency of sepa- rating the .collections ; have you anything to observe upon that ? — I had the honour of laying before the Committee a letter that was printed many years ago by Count Laborde, one of the best judges in Europe, who has written on museums and libraries, and who is strongly for a separation. When I heard the opinion of M. de Verneuil quoted, I thought of asking the opinions of other eminent men, and I have accordingly asked the opinion of M. Flourens, who is the Secretary of the Institute, and of M. Geoffroy St. Hilaire and M. Elie de Beaumont, and they are all for sepa- ration ; it is needless to add that they are great naturalists. In addition to the opinion of those eminent scientific men, I also asked the opinion e E 2 of 220 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Panizzi, of M. Merimec and of M. Barthelemi St. Hilaire ; Esq. those are eminent learned men, who understand art, as well as literature, both ancient and modern, 16 July and they have no doubt about the advisability of 18^0. separation. 3523. Have you got the letters?— The letters are private letters, and express the writers' opinions so strongly that I think it better not to produce them. 3524. Can you state the substance or the view that they took? — They took the view that the two great divisions should be entirely separate ; and they refer very naturally to their own country, and to all countries known where there is any great institution of the same importance as those at Paris and at London, in none of which such col- lections are not together ; and one of the arguments they use is, that ever in France, amidst all the changes which have taken place, either scientific men or learned men have dreamt of proposing that such collections should be put together. If the Committee will refer to the answer given to Q. 847 in the evidence of Mr. Waterhouse, they will see that botanists who lived at Hammersmith and at Turnham Green had expressed a strong opinion that the botanical collection should not be moved from the Museum. Now, inasmuch as Dr. Lindley lives near Hammersmith, at Turn- ham Green, and is a great botanist, I wrote to him to ask him whether he had expressed this opinion, and I have here his letter, which I beg to read and put in. He says, — " I rather think that Mr. Miers, who lives at Hammersmith, and is a botanist, did express an opinion in favour of keeping the botanical collections in the British Museum, instead of sending them to Kew. It is also just possible that the late Professor Henfrey, who resided at Turnham Green, may have said something of the sort, yet I should doubt it much ; because, first, his peculiar line of research must have led him seldom to Great Russell-street, and frequently to Kew ; secondly, he Avas one of us working men who signed the memorial to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 18th No- vember 1858. For myself, who also live at Turnham Green, you may assure the Committee that I entertain the strongest possible opinion in favour of removing the botanical collections of the Museum to Kew, and have the greatest ob- jection to their remaining where they are. All botanists now necessarily resort to Kew for the sake of the immense scientific materials collected there, and it is a great inconvenience to be obliged to travel to Great Russell-street upon the mere chance of picking up some small piece of addi- tional information in the Banksian herbarium." That is the opinion of Dr. Lindley, 3525. Mr. Walpole.~\ Is much room taken up at the Museum by the botanical collection ? — Three rooms, a very good large room and two smaller ones; one of them is used for an exhibition of woods, and the other is to be used for another public exhibition, but there is nothing in it yet ; it is a small room. 3526. It has been stated that if the botanical collection was removed to Kew, a considerable grant of money would be required to provide a library at Kew, while the books can now be found at the British Museum ? — I think so ; if a bota- nical museum is established, or if a natural history museum in general, detached from the British Museum, is established anywhere, I am of opinion that it ought to have the very best possible natural history library connected with it. If the Com- mittee recollect, when I heard it stated that such a library as I have in my eyes for such an institu- tion might be purchased for 20,000 /., I said that I certainly thought it could not be purchased for that sum. I thought so then, and I think so still, more and more; I mean not for botany only, but for a general collection of natural history ; a botanical library would cost not so much. 3527. Perhaps you could not put it at a smaller sum than 30,000 1. ? — No ; very likely it would be more for a general natural history collection ; but much less for a botanical collection only, 3528. But that is an alternative which the Government should be prepared for, in case it was recommended that the botanical collection should be removed to Kew ? — Certainly ; but I should not say that even 30,000 1 would be suffi- cient for a general collection; a library for a botanical collection only would not cost so much, but it would be very expensive ; it would be a library of at least 20,000 volumes, and many of them illustrated works. 3529. Some of them would be very expensive in consequence of the illustrations ? — Yes. 3530. Mr. Lowe.'] Have you anything more to add upon that subject ? — No. 3531. Are you still of opinion that the natural history collections should not be curtailed? — I have no doubt that the eminent men who have been examined are better judges than I am of what they want ; but I have always tried to plead the cause of an enlarged exhibition of a national collection, not for learned people only, as I said before in my evidence, but for the public at large. No doubt it may be true — although I have heard people differ from them — but it may be true as scientific men have said, that a skin unmounted may be more useful to them than one stuffed ; but that is not the way of showing to the public what nature produces, and what are the enormous varieties and riches that providence has scattered all over the world in mineralogy, the animal kingdom, and the vegetable kingdom ; and that is what I think a natural history collection ought to exhibit. If you are to have an exhibition, or to have a collection only for learned people, no doubt it is not necessary to exhibit so much; but it is not for them, I apprehend, that the great museums in Europe are established, but for the general public. I have observed that Mr. Hewlett in his evidence, gave an instance of the use of these exhibitions to people who belong to the humbler classes, and who possess a little education, but who are not superior scientific men acquainted with the officers of the Museum, and on terms of equality with them, and who would come and ask for whatever they wanted to see. Dr. Hewlett stated that a youth of his acquaint- ance having found a moth, wanted to know what this moth was ; he wanted to know the name of it ; and what did he do ? he came to the British Museum, and had no need to go to any officer, but went to the place where that particular kind of moth was exhibited, and he found his moth named ; he took down the name of it, and went away. The same is done by many young ladies, members of even high families, who make collec- tions of mineralogy and of shells, and who come and look at the table cases where such objects are exhibited at the British Museum, and find the name which they want, and go away. Now, none of those persons would trouble the keeper by asking him to open a case or a drawer, which is closed to the public, to show them what they wanted ; and, if SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 121 if even they were inclined to give him this trouble, they would have to find out the name of the keeper, and when they had found out his name he might be engaged somewhere else ; after all it depends upon him, to show,' or not to show what he is asked. In the case which has been put of ig- norant people going and taking up the time of the keepers, it has been said that in a very few moments of conversation an officer of the Museum would discover whether a gentleman or a lady, ■applying to see something, would be worth open- ing a drawer for ; but I do not think we ought to establish a preliminary examination as to whether a person has a right to see what there is in the British Museum ; observe, if you applied that rule as to books, would you say to any appli- cant, "Before you can have this book, you must let me know whether you can make use of it : " the best is to leave it free for anybody who wants to derive any benefit from it, according to his education and mental faculties, to go and look at what he wants. Then, as to the question of space, it has been said, for instance, that the bird gallery — I take that as the most popular — might be thinned, and that there are duplicates exhibited ; Mr. Gray, not Dr. Gray, but his brother, who is the gentleman par- ticularly charged with the ornithology, and who has published some very remarkable works on that branch of natural history, has told me that he is sure there are not 100 specimens that could be withdrawn ; no doubt it may be true that there are varieties which you do not see, by their being ex- hibited only ; but it is just because two things apparently alike are exhibited that a man of sense asks himself, why are they put here ? He reflects, asks questions, and he comes to know that there is a variety, although not perceptible. Mr. Gray has said, on the other hand, that there are some speci- mens which he does not put up because he has not room ; and further, I have heard very eminent naturalists say repeatedly here, that in addition to the exhibition of the male, which is generally ex- hibited now, there ought always to be the female, and the young ones exhibited; so that I do not think you would have much space to spare even if it was possible to withdraw anything from that exhibition. Again, it has been said that to exhibit well, the whole floor of that long room ought to be occupied with birds of different ages and sexes, well grouped, and not only with those, but with nests and eggs. This would necessitate finding- room for the collection of shells now on that floor ; •so that by applying even the remedies or the principles that these gentlemen have suggested of withdrawing the specimens, you would not have room to spare, supposing you do what these same .gentlemen contend ought to be done. That is what I think you will find to be the case on further inquiry. 3532. Mr. Ayrton.] You have given, as an il- lustration, the Library ; but, in point of fact, you do not allow any person to enter the library to look at the books ; do you not make them go and •take -the trouble to examine the catalogues, and write a requisition for the book they want, inform- ing themselves^ beforehand whether they can get the information they require out of the book ? — Yes, they do that ; and if you were to add a cata- logue for the visitors of those skins and objects which are shut up in drawers, belonging to natural history, and if that catalogue was at the command -of the public, so that they could open it, and find the press mark, as we call it, for books, and they could say, " You have the skin of such and 0.96. such an animal ; it is to be found in such a press • I want it," you Avould have to provide a number of attendants who would be wanted to take those objects to the different applicants, and to be pre- sent while they used them ; and have the same machinery as for the reading room. I understood it was said, that we ought to allow a person to ask for anything that is locked up, and to ascer- tain whether he was capable of making a good use of it before allowing him to use it ; but we do not ask any such thing as to books. 3533. Whether you would require a number of persons for the purpose would depend, would it not, upon the number of requisitions that were made in a day ? — It would. 3534. Have you taken any means to inform yourself of the number of requisitions that are made in a day, or that are likely to be made in a day ? — I assume that those persons who come to the Britisk^ Museum to look at the birds, are very glad to see them ; if not all, a great majority of them would ask to have them out if they were locked up, instead of being exhibited as they now are. 3535. Have you any means of forming an opinion as to the number of persons, in a day, who would come to satisfy themselves about the iden- tity of an object, or of a peculiar species or variety, in the way you have mentioned, in the illustration given by Dr. Hewlett ? — I argue from the number of people who do come to the Museum ; if we had 1,000 persons coming to the bird gallery, I do not say that the whole 1,000 would each of them look at a single bird, or ask to have the skin of that bird taken out and shown to them ; but you mav say that one-tenth of them would. 3536. Chairman.~\ Are you aware of the name of the gentleman who is now enrployed in making the catalogue of the fishes ? — Yes. 3537. What is the name?— Dr. Gunther. 3538. Are you aware of the number of persons who have consulted him, since he has commenced that catalogue, upon the subject of fishes ? — ]S T o ; but Dr. Gray has told me that they have even now, from 15 to 20 people a clay coming to ask ques- tions respecting the zoological collections. The number may be exaggerated ; but he says so. 3539. That is not a very heavy tax upon the gentlemen connected with that collection ? — I understand that it is ; but, moreover, you must consider that that is in addition to those who come to see exhibited what they want to see. 3540. Mr. Ayrton.] After all, is it not a ques- tion of comparative expense, whether you spend 100,000 1, in order to show all these things, or keep a person to take a specimen out of a drawer to show to a visitor at an expense of 200 I. a year ? • — Yes ; but the comparison seems to me not quite correct ; I do not believe that you would find that one person would do for this. 3541. Chairman.'] Referring to the comment that you have made upon what Mr. Hewlett stated on the subject of moths, the moths to which you referred, I presume, were British moths? — I do not know ; I only heard what he said. 3542. Is it not clear from the evidence that the moth referred to was a British moth ? — Yes, it is ; I now remember he said that the young man had found it himself. 3543. Under those circumstances, you would naturally conclude that it would be expedient that all British moths should be exhibited for the benefit of the ordinary spectator ? — I alluded to that, as it was the only illustration that I had at E E 3 hand 1 6 July i860. 222 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Paniz-i Esq, hand to show the advantage of a large exhibition. I have no doubt that I may be led to say that 100,000 moths are to be exhibited, which _ is not 16 Julv what I mean by saying that a good exhibition of i860." all collections should be made. I do not say an indiscriminate one ; it is for the keepers of those collections to exhibit largely, and I believe it is for the nation to provide them with the means. 3544. Your observation, as to collections of British moths, would also hold good, would it not, as to collections of foreign moths?— Yes; cer- tainly. 3545. Are you not aware that within a very few years, three or four years, the effect of light completely takes away the colour from those moths ? — Yes, in some cases ; I am aware of that ; and also that the use of books wears them out ; but they are collected to be used, and therefore worn out, and moths are collected to be exhibited. 3546. If you were to exhibit foreign moths, which are most expensive, some of them costing as much as six or seven guineas a piece, you would have to replace them, in perhaps, three years ? — That may be ; I know many books printed and manuscript which are worth from 100 to 200 or 300 guineas a piece. 3547. The fact of those manuscripts being used shows that people have a great necessity for their iise ? — I do not know that ; a man comes to the Museum, and he says, he has a right to see a manuscript, and he does see it. 3548. But he would not wish to see it unless he took an interest in it ? — I do not know ; a man may say " I want the first edition of Homer," and he writes a ticket for it. Generally he is told, " If you want to read Homer, we will give you a much better edition than that ;" but he replies, " I want to compare it." 3549. And the book gets very much used ? — No doubt. 3550. If a person has a particular object, in seeing a particular moth, it is equally open to him, to apply to the keeper, is it not, to have it shown to him ? — I have tried to explain that a man in humble life is timid, and he will not generally go to ask a keeper, whose name he does not even know, or go all over the Museum to find him out, to tell him that he wants to see a parti- cular moth, or anything else that he Wants to see. 3551. "Would it not be perfectly easy to remedy that defect by having an extra attendant or two, sufficiently competent to exhibit such specimens to the public ? — It depends upon that attendant to find what is wanted. It happens in foreign libraries when they want to save themselves trouble, that if you ask for a particular book, they will say they have not got it. 3552. If you do not exhibit everything, where are you to draw the line ; you must make a limitation somewhere, must you not? — I am not a naturalist, and I cannot tell you where to draw the line; a good officer of the British Museum will do what is right. 3553. Mr. Ayrton.~] Do you see any difficulty, if there were catalogues of natural history, and persons came desiring to look at a particular object, in producing the specimens they wished to see, in the same manner that persons ask for books and obtain them ? — No ; but the Honour- able Member knows better than I do what space would be required for that, and for the catalogue alone, what an expense; and you must have a room where objects are to be taken to and laid out for examination. 3554. Is there no catalogue now of the objects exhibited in the natural history collections ?~ There are synopses that tell you of certain classes or of certain species that they have ; butthey do not give a list of all the specimens which they have ; it would be unmanageable. 3555. It would not be unmanageable if it had. been made as the things were collected?— No; but they collect so much, that I really believe it would require such a staff as would be unmanage- able, in fact, the staff would be, if you were to put down everything that you have as you buy it. There is a register now, in which they put down what they have bought; say 20 speci- mens of such and such an insect, and there is an end of it ; but they do not put down every- thing. 3556. Then, at the present time, there is no check whatever as to the existence of any parts of the natural history collection in the Museum that have been bought ? — Yes ; there are all the bills. Whenever Dr. Gray buys for his depart- ment — and so of all the others — he gets a list of the objects he purchases, not of each individual one, but he says for such and such, so much, and he signs that bill, which is kept by me as a check against him. 3557. At the present time there are no means of telling; whether the things that have been bought are now in the British Museum, or in any way guaranteeing to the public the safety of the col- lection, if there is no catalogue? — I beg pardon; there is a list ; the officers have a register, and that register has a number which answers to an object ; and you can try it yourself at any mo- ment, if you ask for a bill and point out any ob- ject in that bill, I pledge myself that within five minutes it will be produced. 3558. But are the bills kept in any order or in any series? — In perfect order; they are kept in my office, and at any moment you can see them all, or any of them. 3559. How can the curator of the collection tell whether the contents of the drawers are cor- rect or not if there is no list ? — There is a register of everything ; and if you want to see a certain object which is in a bill (I will give you any bill to choose from) and according to the date of that bill the keeper can go to his register, and he finds in it, under that date, the number of so and so, being the number of the object you want to see ; he then goes and produces it. 3560. Then there is a catalogue of the whole collection, but it is not arranged scientifically ? — Exactly so. 3561. Mr. Tite.] Nor accessible to the public ? — Not the catalogue of the whole collection ; but for the security of the property of the Trustees the catalogue or register is perfect. 3562. Mr. Ayrton.~] Then the contents in the drawers can only be ascertained by going through a diary of purchases, it may be, for 20 or 30 years? — The keeper classifies the objects, he and the gentlemen under him, and they put that particular object, which we will suppose is in that bill, in a particular drawer, and in the particular class to which it belongs, and no doubt he finds it. 3563. Did you state that he has a classified register ?— There is a register, not classified, but the things are classified in his drawers ; take the case of that famous moth; when you give him the name of that moth, and ask for it, he will find. it immediately by looking in its proper place. 3564. How can he find it?— Because objects are arranged SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 22.3 arranged in classes? in drawers, and he knows that that moth, belonging to such a class, must be in such a drawer of such a press. 3565. He can only tell whether he has got it in his collection by going to the drawer? — Cer- tainly, generally speaking. 3566. Chairmun.~\ With regard to varieties in the bird department, you have stated that Mr. Gray says there are very few duplicates ? — In- deed he sa}^s that there are not a hundred. 3567. Are you aware that there is a considerable number of specimens of the same species of bird in some instances? — Yes, in some cases; but they are not duplicates. 3568. Are you aware that a practised ornitho- logist, like Mr. Sclater, has stated, that he had seen several specimens the other day in the British Museum, in which he could not perceive the slightest difference ? — Yes, I have heard him say so ; and I should like to know what Mr. Gray has to say in reply to that. These generalities will never do. If Mr. Sclater, when he was at the Museum, had called Mr. Gray, and had said : There are here three birds, which are to all intents and purposes duplicates, Mr. Gray would either have satisfied him that they were not, or he would have admitted that he was mis- taken in that particular case. 3569. If the distinctions are so minute that a practised ornithologist like Mr. Sclater can- not perceive them, do you think it is beneficial to have all these specimens exhibited for the British public and ordinary visitors, when, as I said be- fore, a person like Mr. Sclater cannot perceive the slightest difference between them? — It seems to me, that it is very useful, because any reflecting person who has not been educated for that parti- cular branch of science, like Mr. Sclater, on seeing these birds together, immediately will ask himself "Why are they put out?" We must suppose that Mr. Gray does his duty ; and the inquirer -will be immediately led to think that there are some varieties in them, which he does not perceive at once, by looking through the glass; very likely he will go and ask Mr. Gray if he wants an explanation. Mr. Sclater might have done that as a scientific man. 3570. According to your arrangement, it ap- pears that there is great objection on the part of simple persons to go and put questions to keepers ? — Yes-; young persons are timid, and they do not like to give trouble ; but, if a man studies natural history, and wishes to know why three specimens are put together, which seem duplicate, he will have the courage to ask why ; probably many will go away without doing so, even among advanced students ; such was the case with Mr. Sclater. 3571. Bo you not think, as far as a scientific person is concerned, that it would be better for him to be able to take a specimen out of a drawer and examine it ? — If he had asked Mr. Gray he would have had the specimens to look at, and to examine. 3572. Do not practised ornithologists tell you that they can handle specimens better when they are not set up ? — No ; Mr. Gray says that he likes -them better when they are set up; 'Mr. Gould says that he likes them both ways. 3573. Mr. Walpole.~\ Are not these -matters which must be left to the keeper of the depart- ment ? — Yes ; I assume that a good practical keeper of ornithology, like Mr. Gray, has very good reasons -for putting out the specimens which 0.96. are exhibited, and when I am in doubt, I am of a 7>„„;<,*; opinion that he is right, and those who find fault Esq. are wrong. 3574. Mr. Tite.] In writing to the very emi- 16 July nent philosophers abroad, of whom you have i860. spoken, did you call their attention distinctly to the letter of M. de Verneuil, or send them a copy of it?— They were informed that he had given such an opinion ; I did not write to every one of them direct, but I wrote to two of them, who asked the opinions of the others; M. Barthelemi St. Hilaire was lately in England, and I asked his opinion personally; Count Laborde has printed his, and as to M. Merimee, I wrote to him, and he asksd some other people. 3575. My question rather refers to the opinion of M. de Verneuil; that seeing the great difficulty as to space, he thought that by a proper arrange- ment of the natural history collections, the space might be much diminished ; do you consider him a competent authority on that subject ? — I should prefer not to give an opinion upon that, as I am not a naturalist. 3576. He suggests certain arrangements of drawers and cases, by which the space required might be very much diminished ; but you do not call particular attention to that ? — No. 3577. Mr. Ayrton.~\ Do you see any objection to enamels and small objects being exhibited in cabinets, in the same way as they are usually kept in private houses, namely, with drawers to pull out, so that anybody could pull them out ? — Yes, they might be so exhibited, and they are so exhibited, in the Museum ; there are table cases, full of drawers, but if we were to exhibit all the insects at the Museum they would cover the whole Museum ; the officers exhibit a certain number of them, and such as make the exhibition interesting, not to scientific people only, who can have these drawers opened, but to the public in general. 3578. Can these drawers be opened by the public 1 — No. 3579. Do you see any objection to those drawers being covered with glass and fastened down, so that they could be pulled out by those who wished to see what was in them ? — You may be certain, to begin with, that they would break the glass ; and I think that you never could venture to trust drawers in that way to . the public generally, without somebody being there to watch them. 3580. Do they break the glasses that are at present exposed to the touch ?— No ; but they have no occasion to handle them. 3581. I mean a drawer to be pulled out a eertain distance, containing a certain number of objects, with a glass fastened down, such as is usual at the Geological Museum ? — I do not know what is used there ; but 1 know that you must have much room and space left for pulling out those drawers, particularly on public days ; on public days you would hardly be able to do it ; when you open a drawer, and a person is looking at it, the gangway is filled up between the table case and the next case ; and I do not think that in the present space of the Museum it could be done generally. 3582. Will you be good enough, with regard to the table you have handed in, to explain whether what I describe as the east does not contain at present a collection of the animal kingdom ? — Of the birds only in the east, and a. part of the mammalia. 3583. Do you observe that the number of per- e E 4 sons 224 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Panizzi sons wno are spoken of as visitors to those gal- Esq. leries greatly exceed throughout the whole the number in any of the other galleries ? — Yes, and 16 July that is the reason why I have always chosen for i860. illustration that very gallery, to show how much the public derive pleasure, and I hope instruction, from that gallery. 3584. And the next gallery that seems to excite the greatest attention is that which contains the small objects of antiquity ? — I do not know ; the antiquities on the ground-floor had the greatest number of visitors on the first day. 3585. You will observe that the next greatest number is to be found in the gallery containing the small objects on the upper floor ? — It is not so on the next day. 3586. But on Mondays and Wednesdays? — On Mondays constantly. 3587. And generally ? — Yes, many more in the upper floor ; there are there vases, amongst other things, and the ethnography. 3588. Mr. Lowe.] Have you any observation to make on the evidence given to this Committee by Dr. Gray ? — He stated that it is two or three years since he has been of opinion that too much was exhibited. This was stated in answer to Question 768 ; but this was never told to the Trus- tees, and, what is more, he has continued stuffing and exhibiting at the same rate during that time, at a very considerable expense. I have here an ac- count of what has been spent during the last lOyears for stuffing, and for making stands, and shades, and tablets for those things which are exhibited, and which would have cost much less if he had not exhibited the whole ; it comes to nearly 4,000 /. in 10 years (an account was handed in : vide Ap- pendix) ; during those years he has proposed no diminution. 3589. Do you mean that, if he had been of that opinion so long, Dr. Gray should not have gone on putting the public to so much expense in adding to the exhibition ? — Yes. 3590. Chairman.'] Are you not aware that a great many of the specimens for which the charge was made, were specimens that had been re- placed ? — Indeed, I am not aware of any such thing, and I do not know how that can be ; they were all replaced exactly for that amount every year. 3591. Are there not a great many specimens in the ornithological exhibition that have only been recently placed there, to replace the inferior specimens which existed before ? — That they have replaced inferior specimens I do not know; I know that many objects have been exhibited; but my argument is, that if too much was ex- hibited, it ought not to have been so, and the Trustees ought to have been told. 3592. Mr. Ayrton.] You do not know how much of the money was spent in replacing new specimens? — No, I do not; but I must repeat what I mean; I think that an officer of the Trustees, instead of coming here and saying that he had thought for some time that too much was exhibited, was bound to come to the Trustees from the first and say, " I find that too much is exhibited ; 1 do not want too much exhibited, and therefore we will effect an economy in the stuffing of these animals, and exhibit less." Or, if he thought it was necessary to replace many of them, he ought to have stated to the Trustees, " There are so many old specimens that want replacing ; I shall want an additional sum of money for stuffing some new specimens." 3593. Mr. Walpole.] In point of fact, no state- ment has been made as to the exhibition having been carried to too great an extent? — Never; and I must add, in my own defence, that all the reports and accounts of the officer pass through my hands; and I take for granted when an officer says that he wants so much, that he does want it ; I never thought that Dr. Gray had any idea that he had exhibited too much. 3594. Chairman.] I suppose that a good many of these specimens have been new birds? — I really do not know. 3595. I perceive that the cost of stuffing in 1859-60 was 305/. 15*., but a great part of that may have been for new birds ; new species that it was necessary to exhibit ? — But if he exhibits too much, he cannot want that sum of money. 3596. He says in his evidence " If I had to re-arrange the Museum, I should not exhibit as many specimens as have hitherto been exhibited, seeing the growing feeling, to which I have re- ferred, among the scientific men of the present day"? — I think he says that for two or three years he has been thinking that he exhibited too much ; and if the passage stands, as I apprehend it stands, it was his duty to tell the Trustees at once, and not to lead them into this expense. 3597. If you will turn to Question 765, and to the answer, you will perceive that he says, " If I had to re-arrange the Museum, I should not ex- hibit as many specimens as have hitherto been exhibited"; why should not this sum of 305 1. and odd, have been spent in exhibiting specimens of new series that had arrived, and which it was necessary to exhibit ? — I am afraid I have failed to convey my meaning ; I am not contending that he has exhibited too much, I say that he was quite correct ; but I say that he says so himself; and there is the passage in which he says, in answer to Question 768, " I have never made a secret of it, in the last two or three years that I felt it was not necessary to exhibit so much" ; and I say again, that the moment he arrived at that conviction, he ought immediately to have stated to the Trustees, ci We have been exhibiting too much, and I mean to curtail the exhibition." 3598. Mr. Turner.] May not the two circum- stances be quite consistent that Dr. Gray may be of opinion that the system has been to exhibit too much of the specimens already in existence in the Museum; and yet Dr. Gray may think it per- fectly right that new species which are discovered ought to be exhibited, and that it is necessary to incur the expense of stuffing them ? — Yes ; per- fectly ; but I say that he ought to have stated that, for two or three years he had had this con- viction in his mind. 3599. May it not be that he may have enter- tained the opinion that it was not necessary to exhibit so many of the old specimens, and yet it may be quite consistent that he should wish to exhibit new specimens ?— Unfortunately I do not see it so. 3600. Mr. Lowe.] What share had you in Professor Owen's plan for a natural history mu- seum ?— Never any share ; I never knew that he. had such a plan ; it was sent in, in the usual way of business, to the Trustees, and nobody has any right to say that I had any part in it. 3601. Mr. Ayrton.] Having regard to the opinion which you have expressed, that too much is exhibited at once, would not all the difficulty be obviated by the upper part of the collection and the lower part of the collection being exhi- bited SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 225 bited on alternate days ? — I beg pardon ; I do not think I ever said that too much is exhibited at once. 3602. I thought you stated that the collection was too large, that it bewildered people. If so, would not that objection be obviated, the upper floor being confined to natural history, and the lower floor confined to antiquities, if the upper floor were exhibited on one day of the week, and the lower floor on another day ? — When we have got a new building suitable for this arrangement, then we shall be able to see how that will answer ; I really do not know, for I have never thought of it. 3603. There would be no difficulty if the pro- posed staircase were made, and the upper floor was entirely devoted to natural history ? — I really cannot tell, but I have great doubts about these plans for new buildings. I cannot enter into the •particulars, for I have not had time to examine them ; but I think, before any plan is adopted, it will be necessary to inquire into all its bearings, not only with regard to the particular department to which each gentleman has referred, but to the whole Museum; for the object which you start now, it may be necessary to make some particular arrangement. 3604. Supposing the plan which has been pro- posed to be carried out, of having staircases, the whole of the upper floor being confined to natural history, could not the collections upon that floor be exhibited on alternate days with those on the lower storey ? — I think that the public would be extremely dissatisfied, if, when they came to the Museum, they were told, You can go up stairs and look at the butterflies, but you cannot go and look at the marbles. When a room is closed they are always dissatisfied. 3605. Would they not equally find fault if they were told that the natural history collections were sent to Kensington? — I think not. It will take a long time before they get to know these distinctions as to rooms and days. They know so well that the British Museum is opened on alternate days, Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fri- days, throughout the year, that when it is opened during Christmas week, Easter week, and Whit- sun week for the rest of the week, very few people indeed come on Tuesdays and Thursdays, because it is not usually open on those days, although the special rule for those three weeks has been acted upon for years. 3606. .You do not take the same trouble that they do at the Kensington Museum, to have your- selves advertised in the newspapers once a week ? — No. 3607. Nor do you take any trouble to attract visitors ? — No. 3608. Mr. Lowe.] For what reason was the privilege of making exchanges given to Professor Maskelyne ; what had the Speaker to do with it ? — It is a complete misconception on the part of Professor Maskelyne ; he has no more privilege to make exchanges than any of the other keepers. If he want to make exchanges, he makes a re- port to the trustees, and proposes exchanges ; that report passes through the hands of Professor Owen, and through mine, and, if no objection is raised to it, the trustees rely on their officers, and sanction it, except it be a matter of importance, when they inquire further ; perhaps they see Pro- fessor Maskelyne himself. But he has no power whatever to make exchanges, nor do I under- stand what he means by saying that the Speaker 0.96. took the matter up ; he is on the same footing as A. Panizzi, any other head of a department, and, if he wants Esq. to make an exchange, he proposes it, and the trustees decide upon it. 16 July 3609. Do you think that the officers of the l86 °- Museum ought to have an uncontrolled disposal of the grant made to their department, and be quite free to purchase what they like, from whom they like, and for what sum they like ? — No ; I think I could produce proofs before this Com- mittee that, if there had not been control, collec- tions would have been paid for twice over, objects would have been purchased which the trustees had refused ; purchases would have been agreed to when there were no funds to pay for them, and many other things of that sort. I do not think that the House of Commons would like an account to be paid only because a gentleman says that he has bought so much. I have heard one of the officers say that we ought to buy all we can get ; I object strongly to that principle. I think that we ought to buy all that is useful and good, and at reasonable prices, but not all that we can get. 3610. Chairman.'] Who is the officer who said that ? — It was Mr. Hawkins. 3611. At Question 1873, he is asked, " Do you consider it desirable that the country should go on adding collection to collection of ancient sculp- ture ? — Certainly. All you can get ? — All we can get "? — All we can get. 3612. Do not you think that that implies that there is to be some discrimination as to what is to be purchased ? — The trustees use that discrimina- tion which there ought to be. 3613. Does the first reply, in your opinion, mean that you are to get every single thing, in the shape of sculpture, that you can procure ? — I am forced to appeal to that; I do believe that it would not be right to allow any head of a department to buy all that he likes, and- 1 think that control is necessary. 3614. Have you not power in cases of urgency to grant 100 1, to a keeper for a purchase, on a written application being made to you ? — Yes. It has also been said, in that same evidence, that it is not known what authority the keeper has, or what authority I have. I will now read a minute of the trustees passed on the 23d May 1 857, when it was resolved : " That the heads of departments be authorized to make purchases of one or more objects to the amount of 20 I., re- porting the same from meeting to meeting ; and to an amount not exceeding 100 /., in the intervals between the meetings of the standing committee, upon placing a written report to the trustees in the hands of the principal librarian, and obtaining his consent to the outlay, as directed by the mi- nute of the 8th February 1840." That shows the Committee that, so far as an expenditure of 100 1. goes, it can be very easily effected at any time, and that the heads of departments at the Museum have more power than Professor Huxley told the , Committee that they had at the Geological Museum, where he can spend only 51. ; if he want to spend 20 1, he must have the consent of Sir Rode- rick Murchison; and, if he want to spend 100/., he must send a request to Sir Boderick Mur- chison, and to the Board to which Professor Hux- ley has no access, and from whom the authority comes. At the British Museum, in order not to lose opportunities of buying even beyond that sum of 100 1, this has been often done. Suppose a very important sale is going to take place ; there is no time to have a meeting of the trustees ; the I 1 F sum 226 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A. Paiiixzi, sum required exceeds 100 1. It is in evidence Ksq. that the trustees have divided themselves into sub-committees; in the case of antiquities, for iti July instance, the keeper of the department goes or 1 86b. sends to several of the members of the sub- committee, representing the case to them, and informing them that I consent to a certain outlay, but that I do not consider myself authorized, the sum being too large to act alone. The Trustees thus applied to generally give their sanction, and the proposed purchase takes place. Much has been said about the sale at Paris of M. Fould ; if Mr. Hawkins had anything to purchase there that he thought important, or even if he wished to send anyone to Paris, on making out a proper case, there would have been no difficulty. 3615. Chairman.'] Would it be expedient to increase the amount beyond 100 1., to meet the chance of large purchases or auctions occurring, without sufficient notice to enable you to convene a meeting of the trustees ?— That is done by three or four of the trustees being asked belonging to the sub-committee or a particular department, or as many as are accessible at once. Sir David Dundas, the Dean of St. Paul's, and Lord Stanhope, speaking of antiquities, are for instance consulted ; the catalogue is taken to them of the sale, with a report of the keeper of the department, and he informs them that the sum required is too large a sum for me to authorize alone ; he states the reasons for the outlay, and the authorization is received in a couple of hours. 3616. Would that, in your opinion, be too great a responsibility to throw upon the principal librarian alone ? — Certainly, at present. 3617. But you do not think that any practical inconvenience has ever arisen on the subject of these purchases ? — Never since I have been prin- cipal librarian. 3618. 'Mr. Lowe.] Are the trustees guided solely by the report of the officers in making purchases ?- -No ; when large purchases are pro- posed, they take other opinions. What the trus- tees do is this : they have never incurred an expense, at least since I have been principal librarian, without the favourable opinion of the head of the department, to which the subject belongs ; but when it is a large one, they are not satisfied with that opinion only, but ask the opinions of other people ; and there have very recently been two cases in which this has been done : one was the purchase of the collection of minerals of Mr. Greig, of which the Com- mittee have heard from Professor Maskelyne. He made a very good report, which was backed by Professor Owen ; he also sent in the opinion of several mineralogists who recommended the purchase. When the sale of the Woodburn drawings took place the other day, Mr. Car- penter requested the trustees to apply to the Government for an extra grant, as he had not funds enough from the regular grant; and along with this opinion he sent in the opinion of some of the greatest artists in England, who recommended the purchase strongly. All these documents were sent to the Treasury, and the Treasury authorized an outlay of 2,500 I., of which, however, only 2,200 /. and odd have been laid out. 3619. Why has the grant for antiquities, coins, and medals been reduced to 3,000 I. ? — The grant has not, in fact, been reduced. From 1847 to 1859, both inclusive, the department of antiquities laid out in purchases 50,472 1., which is at the rate of 3,959 I. a year ; to which is to be added the cost of the excavations in Assyria, the productions from which are in that department, which cost about 18,0007., and the cost of the excavations at Bud- rum, which cost 8,000 /. more. The fact is, that besides the ordinary grants there are extra grants; the ordinary grant for purchases in 1856-57 was only 3,000 1, but, in point of fact, 7,167 /. were spent in that department; the grant for 1855-561 was only 3,000 l, but, in point of faet, 9,023 /. were spent ; and this very year, in the estimates which have not yet been before the House of Commons, the Committee will find that, although the ordinary grant is set down at 3,000 /., there is, also, a sum of 950 1, extra to be provided for the purchase of the Northwick sale of coins. The department of antiquities, as the Committee will see from the returns that are before the House, and which have lately been published, costs more than any other department in the Museum. I* do not say it is wrong ; quite the reverse. 3620. Mr. Walpole.] More than the birds?— Yes ; more than anything. 3621. Mr. Lowe.] Including the books ? — Yes; it costs more than any other department. 3622. Mr. Walpole.] Not than the books and the bookbinding ■ together ? — That is another thing. 3623. Mr. Lowe.] Are you of opinion that the officers in the department of antiquities are of a superior class to the other officers in the Museum? — No ; and I was very sorry to hear that ; it was an invidious comparison, which ought never to have been made. It is said that the gentlemen in the department of antiquities are superior because they are university men. Now, first of all, in point of fact, they are not all university men ; the great majority are not university men. The keeper himself is not a university man ; Mr. Birch, who has a European reputation, is not a university man, nor is Mr. Poole, nor is Mr. Madden, nor is Mr. Pfitter. I do not know that there are better officers in the Museum than the first, Mr. Birch, or the last, Mr. Pfitter, each in his own department; and I think it rather hard to say, that, because they have not been to a univer* sity, they are not so good as the others. When the new establishment, as it is now, was settled, the present arrangement was made, and a sub- committee of the trustees was appointed to carry out the general principles that the trustees had ad- mitted. That sub-committee consisted of the Duke of Somerset, Mr. Walpole, and Mr. Hamilton. I need _ not speak of the two first, but of Mr. Hamilton, all those who have known him must admit that he knew more of classical literature ' and more of the Museum than most people living. The sub-committee laiddown as a principle, and a very good principle it was, that the duties of the assistants in the several departments of the Mu- seum were of equal importance, and they treated them all alike. 3624. That was as to regulating the salaries ?— Yes. 3625. Chairman.] In whose evidence was it said_ that the officers in the department of an- tiquities were superior to the others? — In Mr. Hawkins's evidence. 3626. Mr. Walpole.] I believe the antiquities have immensely increased of late years in the Museum ? — Very much so. 3627. And probably you might consider, as- certainly some people have considered, that they have increased somewhat disproportionately to the SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 227 the superintendence which used to be given to them ? — Certainly. 3628. I believe in the department of anti- quities, not merely the classical antiquities, but the oriental antiquities, and not only those, but coins and medals are under the superintendence of fhe same keepers ? — Yes ; they are. 3629. Has it ever occurred to you, or has it occurred to the trustees, that that department being now so extensive, comprehending so many things, some of which are connected with others, might easily be subdivided ; take, for instance, the coins and medals as distinct from antiquities ; take even the oriental antiquities, or the Egyptian antiquities, as compared with the classical an- tiquities, might it not be advisable to make some further division than that which exists at present ? — I think so. 3630. Have not the trustees considered that matter ? — Yes, it is under their consideration now ; and perhaps the very sitting of this Committee has prevented them from coming to any decision, out of respect to the Committee. They want to see what arrangements might be made in future, or what changes; but it is undoubtedly under their consideration. 3631. If that were to be done it could only be done by an additional expense ; in this sense, that you must have keepers for the different sub- divisions ? — Certainly ; it is quite clear that a keeper and an assistant keeper as they are now, and as they were when the Museum was founded, are not sufficient for such a magnificent depart- ment as that of antiquities, and such important objects as are entrusted to the care of its officers. 3632. You have mentioned a gentleman of the name of Birch, and I believe you added that he had a European reputation ? — Yes. 3633. I believe he is considered to possess as great a knowledge of Egyptian antiquities as any man in this country? — Yes; and probably as much as any out of this country. 3634. Chairman.] Would it not be advisable that a gentleman possessing so extensive a know- ledge of Egyptian antiquities as he does, should be enabled to devote his attention as exclusively as possible to them ? — Yes ; that is exactly what is suggested. 3635. Mr. Walpole.] And that matter is under the consideration of the trustees? — Yes, it is; what the arrangement will be is a matter not determined, but the principle, I believe, is recog- nised by the trustees, that some alteration must be made, and a subdivision of the department adopted. 3636. 'Chairman.] In fact, that the department of antiquities is so extensive now, that a sub- division of it has become necessary ? — Yes. Permit Bje to observe that at Question 1653 Mr. Hawkins is asked this question : " The duties of the officers of the antiquity department are quite different from those of the library ?"— " Yes; the officers ought to have had a school and university educa- tion; they should be classical scholars." Then comes Question 1654 : -" The education which is required ia the antiquity department is very dif- ferent from that which is required in other depart- ments :"-— j *' It is; and it requires a more difficult and a more expensive training." "Although the class of persons that you require in the antiquity department is, from their education, necessarily superior, I may say, to the assistants in many of the other departments, no rules as to the discipline, >0.96. occupation, salaries, absence, or anything else, are allowed to be applied to the department of anti- quities, unless they can also be applied to the other department?" — " No; that is the case, and therefore we consider that our officers are kept back, they being few ; they might have advan- tages which it might not be thought, convenient to extend to a very large class." I do not under- stand the last part of the argument ; that because they are few, they should have more advantages than those who are many. 3637. Was not the word "superior" used by me and not by Mr. Hawkins ? — If you had made use of that word to me, I would humbly have remonstrated in favour of the other assistants, and said that they were just as good as those of the department of antiquities. 3638. Do you consider that the other parts of Museum require that special education which the department of antiquities does? — No; but they require other special education which the depart- ment of antiquities does not require ; a naturalist requires a special education, which is as important and as difficult to acquire, and as useful for the public as that required in the department of antiquities ; and so for the manuscripts, and so for the library of printed books. 3639. Mr. Lowe.] With regard to the Derby- shire marble pedestals ; have you ever heard any complaint made of them, or can you tell the Com- mittee how the order came to be given, and whether it was ever stopped ? — It has been stated that the order has not been stopped, but it was stopped ; they were countermanded of the man with whom the contract was originally made, before I became principal librarian. He said that he had already quarried them out, and that it would be a great loss to him if he could not complete his order ; the trustees then said, " Very well, let him complete the order for those which he has quarried out, but let no more be made:" those pedestals had been objected to. The trustees did not like them, and the order was completed up to the number of 64, I believe, which was the number originally ordered; they then stopped, and they did not allow any more to be ordered. The trustees have now under consideration whether some other marble might not be used which might look better, or whether it might not be better to put those busts which are put on the pedestals on brackets. That ques- tion is pending now ; but as to saying that nobody found fault with them, it is a mistake. In the department itself, Mr. Birch, Mr. Newton, and myself have never liked those pedestals, and I think it is a good thing that the order has been suspended. 3640. Do you think there is nothing in the South Kensington Museum worthy of a place in the British Museum ? — -It has been stated in evidence before this Committee, that it is better to keep the mediaeval antiquities at the Museum ; it has also been said that there is nothing at Brompton worth having ; surely their collection of mediaeval antiquities is much better than ours, and it was for that reason partly that I thought it would be better that the few objects that we have of that class should be united with the others there ; just because they have a better collection, not a collection that is not worth having. If we are to have a department of mediaeval antiqui- ties, I hope that all that they have at the South F f 2 Kensington t. Panizzi, i'.sq. 16 July i860." 228 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE A.Panizzi, Kensington Museum will come to the British Esq. - Museum. 3641. Is there any delay at the British Museum 16 July in communicating to the officers the resolutions i860. of the trustees on their reports? — Never; there may he delay in sending out the minutes, because it takes time to write them out ; but, immediately after the meetings of the trustees, if there be any- thing that is desirable should be known imme- diately, I. send word to the proper officer what has been done, or the officers come to ask ; I have even sent, during the meeting of the trustees, word that they have decided a certain point in a certain way, in order that the officers should know it without delay, and there has never been any inconvenience whatever. 3642. Did you say in 1848 that difficulties would be removed, and business facilitated, by the admission of the officers of the Museum to the Board ?— There is a little mistake there ; in answer to Question 2,834, I said that difficulties were removed, and misapprehensions cleared away, not business facilitated. When I gave that evi- dence, we all, and I as much as anybody else, per- haps more than anybody else, complained that we could have no communication with the trustees, and that decisions were come to against our re- ports, without our knowing why, whilst if we had been called in, we might have explained what we meant, and possibly the decision would have been otherwise ; and I said also that very often it had happened that the trustees had formed a wrong impression, that they called me in, and decided after all as I wished them to decide. But now the case is not the same ; the officers are always called in whenever the trustees do not grant what they ask, or do not agree with their report; if there be the slightest objection, and the trustees feel an inclination, for instance, not to agree to a purchase (I take that as the simplest case), they invariably send for the officer, and ask him what he has to say, whilst they state what reasons they have for differing from him ; and very often he is satisfied that he ought not to insist on the grant of what he asks ; but when the report comes in, and they agree to what he asks, the trustees say, " Very well ; let it be done," and the matter ends. 3643. Mr. Puller.'] Suppose it was a report sent in from Professor Maskelyne or Professor Owen, asking for permission to buy something, which the trustees were not prepared at once to grant ; would they send for Professor Maskelyne or Professor Owen ? — For Professor Maskelyne, the report being from him ; if it was important, for both. The gentleman whose report is under consideration, when there is any doubt, is always sent for ; things have so much changed now, that all the officers are sent for ; as Mr. Hawkins says, he is now very frequently sent for, which is the case where there is any difficulty. 3644. Chairman.'] Did not you say, in 1848, that it would be right, a priori, for the heads of departments to be present at the deliberations of the trustees, to answer questions and give the necessary information ? — Yes, and I say so now ; but if I send in a report as to a purchase, and the trustees approve of it, there is an end of the matter. But what happened formerly was this : that a minute came out, without any of us knowing why or wherefore, saying that the purchase should not take place. 3645. You do not think that it would be right, a priori, for the heads of departments to be pre- sent when their business is being transacted, as practically, in the present day, it is not neces- sary ?— No, I beg pardon ; I find it so necessary that it is always done in case of any doubt. Ihere has been no case, since I have been principal librarian, of an officer being refused anything that he asked for without being first sent for and com- municated with;— yes, there was an exception, which I should not like to state. 3646. Are there cases in which the conduct of heads of departments has been impugned, by reason of any complaint being made against them when they have not been present?— Never; when a complaint is made it is communicated to the per- son complained of, if even he were the humblest servant of the Museum; the conduct oi no attendant is inquired into, without his having, an opportunity of saying what he has to say tor himself. . . . , 3647. Mr. Lowe.] What is your opinion with regard to the arrangement of the sculptures, of which we have heard so much ? — I believe, as I did when the inquiry opened, that if we had a museum to build, and a new arrangement of the sculptures to make, it would be better that it were not as it is now ; but inasmuch as the sculptures are already arranged, I must say that I should hesitate a great deal before I moved such heavy masses, and before I ran the risk that must be run of taking them out of the walls, and putting them up again into the walls, as must be necessary if these new schemes are carried out. Mr. Birch, who is the greatest authority, certainly, with regard to Egyptian antiquities, has told me that it does not signify a sixpence whether the head of Thothmes is at one end of the room instead of the other. I do not believe there are six men in Europe who know how to distinguish the age of those sculp- tures ; but even if it were otherwise, after all it is not a matter of such very great consequence if the arrangement begins at one end instead of the other. Mr. Birch says it does not signify, and the Committee ought to consider the expense. It has been said, as to the moving of the head of Thothmes, that it cost 70 I. I have a letter here from the persons who were employed to move it, and the Committee will see what the real facts were. In answer to my inquiries, they write in these terms : " In reply to your inquiry as to the cost of the removal of the Rameses head in the west wing of the British Museum, under the direction of Mr. Stephenson, in 1853, we find that it amounted to about 195 I. ; 65 I. being expended in the preparation of a cradled frame, tramway, and other machinery necessary for the transit ; about 80 l, in forming a brick foundation, brought up through the basement vaulting ; the remaining 50 I. being for the labour of the removal. The cost of the removal of the Thothmes head (this was not removed from its position ; the trustees would not have it removed, as it would have cost still more ; but it was necessary to lift it from the old pedestal on which it was, and to put it on a new granite one, which was done) was about 40 /. ; the plant and machinery of the former being made avail- able. The weight of the Barneses, including the stone base attached, was about 12 tons ; the Thothmes about seven tons." I read this letter in order to show the Committee what the expense may be to move these large objects. Now, as to the danger, it has been stated in evidence, that there is no danger, and that it could be very well done. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 22g done. When the alcove was made in which the beautiful Townley Venus is at present, before definitely fixing it there it was thought desirable that we should see the effect of it, and Mr. West- macott, who superintends the moving of these things, and who stated here the other day that it was so easy to move them, wanted to lift this Venus from its pedestal, and then to put the pedestal in its new place, and the Venus upon it ; but Mr. Hawkins would not allow it to be done. He said that he would have no such responsibility, and if it was done, it must be done on Mr. West- macott's responsibility and mine ; and in conse- quence of this, a oast was put up to judge of the effect. When responsibility is placed on us, we do not do so easily what it is said it is so easy to do; they never could agree about the absolute safety of moving that Venus in that case. 3648. Mr. Walpole.] In your opinion, if there was to be anything like a scientific or chrono- logical arrangement of the different pieces of an- tiquity, many elements have to be taken into con- sideration by those who sanction such removals, on account of the great expense and risk that must be incurred? — Yes; and the risk particu- larly. 3649. And you ought to be pretty certain that you will obtain corresponding advantages, before you incur these two great responsibilities ? — Cer- tainly ; it is a most important point. When the question is discussed about removing the natural history collections, the naturalists speak of the great danger and the great expense attending such a removal ; but what is much more expensive and dangerous appears to be the moving of such things as the marbles, particularly those let in the walls and those consisting of many fragments joined to- gether. The statue of what we call Mausolus consists of 62 pieces, and just consider when that came to be moved what trouble it would give, and what expense would have to be incurred. 3650. Chairman.'] Am I to understand from what you have stated that Mr. Birch does not attach any value whatever to a chronological ar- rangement ? — He has said that he does not consider it necessary to rearrange the Egyptian antiquities for the sake of arranging them chronologically. If he had the means originally to put them in that order, no doubt he would have done so ; but the question is not whether it ought to have been done ; the question is whether, it being done as it is, we ought to interfere with it. 3651. If it is necessary to obtain increased space for the objects of antiquity that you have now, is it not as well that they should be ar- ranged in scientific and chronological order ? — If it be absolutely necessary to move any of the marbles, as in the case of the Mausolus, you can- not help yourselves ; but for the sake of a scientific or chronological arrangement, or for any abstract principle of that kind, I should think twice before I moved such precious marbles as the Athenian marbles that we have. It is a pity that it bas not been better done ; but it is done, and I would, if possible, leave well alone. 3652. For example, in case it was proposed to give up the whole of the first floor to the natural history collections, that would involve the neces- sity- of providing some space for the antiquities contained in that part of the Museum ? — Yes ; but very likely there is no objection to that, be- cause there are only vases, and small objects in general on that floor ; the largest, I believe, are the 0.96. mummy cases and the mummies, which are not very heavy. 3653. With regard to the antiquities that might have to be removed, for instance, those fixed on the walls ; would there be any risk in separating the Assyrian bas-reliefs from the walls upon which they are at present placed? — I really am no judge of that ; there is risk certainly, but whether there would be as much risk to them as in the case of the Greek antiquities, which are let in the walls, and as to the large statues, I really do not know, and what is more, I do not care so much ; I think that if some of those Assyrian slabs were broken, it might not be so difficult to join them together again, but if some of the fine metops were to fall down, and were broken into fragments, it would be a very painful and distressing thing to have such mischief done, for the sake of putting antiquities into chronological order. 3654. Have any things been broken in the British Museum, by any removals that have taken place ? — Yes, some have been. 3655. Of late years ? — No. Since I am prin- cipal librarian, I know some things have been broken, but I do not believe that much mischief has been done. 3656. Would not the expense be much greater for constructing machinery for the removal of some single and very peculiar object, and entirely disproportionate to the expense of removing a great many things ? — I am not engineer enough to say. 3657. Mr. Loue.~\ Have you any observations to offer as to the different plans for building which have been submitted to this Committee ? — I have not had time to consider them ; they are just out now ; and it seems to me that they require very great consideration. It is not one plan only for one department, but the whole of the plans for all the departments, which, I think, ought to be considered together. I hope the trustees will have an opportunity, before anything is fixed upon, to inquire into these plans minutely. With the knowledge of the locality which they have, with their knowledge of the wants of the departments, with the means that they possess in general from their station and position of judging of these things, their opinion is most valuable. I hope that when they have an opportunity of in- quiring minutely into all these plans, they will take the opinions of experienced and disinterested architects, in order to determine what is best to be done. I have looked at all these plans ; and, if all that is proposed to be done was to be done, and not only the west side, but the north side and the east side, to be built upon (and they all say that not less will do), it may be well to con- sider whether any one suggestion is right. If the whole is not to be done, then it would be neces- sary to consider for the good of the whole Museum, which of the departments ought to obtain the addition which some have proposed ; the largest addition, that on the west, is the most important by far. That it is founded also on the principle of a chronological arrangement ; but I leave that aside ; there is a number of rooms there lighted from the top, and I do not know what is to become of the basement of all of those rooms ; I do not see why so much space should be wasted ; I may be wrong, and I dare say it may be satisfactorily explained. I do not see where we are to have a breath of air from. These two acres very nearly of ground which is to be covered in a place like this F F 3 Museum, A. Partizzi, Esq. 16 July i860. 230 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE t. Panizz i§ July i860. Museum, in the rooms of which thousands of people come, ought to have some fresh air, and -the means of ventilation; then there is to be a second floor looking to Bedford-square, and, if I understand the matter rightly, a person who is on the second floor of that part, if he want to go to the second floor of what now exists, must come down stairs and go up stairs again. These are a few hasty observations which I throw out only to show the members of the Committee that the matter is one that requires great consideration. 3:6 5-8. Mr. AyrtonJ\ I do not gather precisely from you what you think the Museum, in its pre- sent situation, ought to contain ; what class of objects ? — In my opinion, all that is the work of man ; all nature ought to be transferred to a splendid separate establishment for the collection of natural objects, 3659. Do you mean that the Museum ought to contain objects of art, that is to say, made by man, and also all objects of nature ? — No, only those made by man. 3660. You think that the British Museum ought to be a complete collection, to illustrate all the works of man? — Yes, in the sense of a museum, that is to say, not modern, but ancient and curious things. We do not attach to the word " museum" the notion of a collection ; for instance, statues, however valuable, made by living artists ; that is not the usual meaning of the word museum. 3661. Are these objects to be collected because they are beautiful, or are they to be collected on account of their historical interest ? —Both. "We collect inscriptions for their historical interest ; ancient statues and works of art are collected both for their historical and artistical interest. 3662. From what period do you consider they are to be collected ? — I am a countryman of Muratori, and there is no doubt what mediaeval means ; it is from500to 1500 ; ancient art is what precedes 500. 3663. Is not that the historical era? — I think it is also for art. The arts in Italy began to revive, and a new style arose,, when the Greeks came from Constantinople. 3664. As Muratori wrote a continuation of his history, why should you stop at 1500 ? — Because that is the accepted meaning of that period ; from 500 to 1500 are what are called the middle ages. 3665. Then, do you exclude the middle ages from the period of your collection? — I would rather prefer, and I have often expressed that opinion, that there were separate museums. 3666. Your collection would cease about the year 500 ? — Yes, a little before Justinian ; about rbhe time of the conversion of Clovis to Christianity. 3667. With the decline of art?— Yes. 3668. Then the determination, whether any object should be put in the Museum or not, would •very much depend upon its excellence as a work of art of that period '!. — In part, and in part on its historical value ; if a statue is not very good, but there is an inscription that shows you certain facts, and gives you certain names, that gives it an im- portance beyond its merits as a piece of sculpture. 3669. Or a portrait ?— Just so. 3670. That would be the limit of your col- lection in point of time ? — Yes ; and it was so at the Museum up to a recent period ; the British Museum did not contain, within the last 20 years, any object, or hardly any,, which was not classical ; only Pagan art. 3671. Would you comprise in the collection fill objects, whether large, or small, whether of statuary, or ethnographical, or otherwise ? — Not ethnographical, because those are only to show the manners and customs of people ; they are not arelweological in the sense usually attached to that word ; I would make an exception, however, aboat coins ; coins are historical monuments, and they are documents for reading history* and therefor* ■they ought to come even down to our time, not as objects of art, but as records that in such & year there was such a sovereign ; and there are many of those coins that are the only means left of checking chronology, or of supplying a name. 3672. What class of objects anterior to the year 500 would you put into the Museum ? — Marbles and bronzes, and the gems and cameos, also glasses, and paintings such as you And in Pompeii oa the walls, furniture of houses, and anything that would enable you to understand the allusions m classical authors. 3673. That would form an ethnographical col- lection, would it not ?— So far as it illustrates the manners and customs of the classical times, not ethnography in general. 3674. You mean so far as it illustrates the eth- nography of the Greeks and Romans ?■ — Yes, of classical times ; and I must put in the Etruscan. 3675. The Egyptian, and the Assyrian, and the Persian ?— Yes, as now we have collection* from all those countries. 3676. That being the limit of the collection ? — I should think so. 3677. What other departments would you re^ tain in the British Museum, besides those you have mentioned previously to 500 ; all books and manu- scripts, I suppose ? — Yes. 3678. And those collected down to the present time ? — Yes ; I conceive that it is necessary te have a national library ; and when you have the large collections I have been trying to describe, you want that library to make proper use of them. 3679. Then you would also, I presume, keep a complete numismatic collection, down to the pre- sent time ? — Yes, because that is history. 3680. Is there any other branch of art or science that you would keep ? — I should keep prints and drawings as we have them ; but the question as to the drawings has been pressed very hard, and I answered it more from feeling than from any reason that I could give ; I should be very sorry to see the drawings go from the Museum, but I do not see that it is quite necessary that they should remain there. As to the engravings, I think the art of engraving being connected with that of printing from its origin, there being so much history which is engraved 8 as for instance, portraits, views of cities, towns, and places existing now no more, for all these reasons I think the col- lection of engravings ought to remain at the British Museum. 3681. You would keep a collection of engrav- ings; but you entertain a doubt whether yo,u should keep the collection of .original drawings by masters of eminence ? — Exactly so. _ 3682. Would that be the limit of the collec- tions that you think it desirable to keep at the British Museum ? — Yes. 3683. What would you propose to do with the other branches of the collection ; would you re*, move them altogether, and make them a distinct exhibition, or would you make eaeh branch a •separate exhibition ? — I would keep all the natural Mstory collections together; I am not a na- iaaralist, but I feel strongly the arguments thai are SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH: MUSEUM. 23* are used by naturalists, who say that they would, regret very much that any branch of the natural history should be separated from the others; I think they ought to be all together, and that there ought to be a museum of natural history as great, as fine, and as complete as any country can make it. 3684. Do you think it necessary that both the animal kingdom and the mineral kingdom should be exhibited at the same place? — I should like to keep them together, as one branch illustrates the other. Minerals are connected with geology and paleontology, and the latter is so much connected with living animals, that I think it is better to keep them together. 3685. Have you looked at the list of the col- lections in the museum at Kensington ? — Yes ; I have. 3686. Can you state whether there are many objects in that list of a kind that would be worth exhibiting in a national collection ? — Yes, a great many ; but, as I ventured to say before, not in our museum of antiquities, but in a museum of mediaeval antiquities. I think that the Kensing- ton Museum is wonderful ; there are many beautiful things there, and I hope it will be kept on and increase. I want it to be a separate museum, and I want it to become as large, and as handsome, and as valuable as other museums are, either natural history or for classical anti- quities. I do not believe there are objects there that woidd come into our departments. I have not seen, looking over the list, more than two or three things that we could incorporate with our collections, if the separation often alluded to was to take place ; I have seen a medal or two, or a com, of classical times, but I do not think there is anything else. 3687. Take, for example, the numismatic col- lection at Kensington; are the objects contained in that numismatic collection objects proper to be put in your numismatic collection ?— Yes ; we have what they have, and we ought to have what they have, and a great deal more ; we ought to have all the classical objects ; but, besides that, we ought to have a complete collection of coins, as historical monuments. At Kensington they col- lect them, as objects of manufacture, to show people how they are worked, and to derive that special technical information from them. 3688. If you are to have a complete numismatic collection, and they have a numismatic collec- tion, you ought to have all those objects that are* contained in that Museum which are not dupli- cates of yours? — I think so; I do not appre- hend that they have a complete collection such as we want ; we must have the most ugly, the most clumsy and hardly legible coin, as it may be of the greatest importance to our museum as a, monument of history, whilst it would be of very little importance at Kensington. 3689. For the jrarposes of art, a copy would be just as useful as the original at Kensington?— I do not know. 3690. Are there any other classes of objects at Kensington that would form part of a national museum as you have described it ? — None what- ever. 3691. Would you in a national exhibition sepa- rate the mediaeval from modern art?— Yes; I should expect it : if you are to instruct people for manufacturing purposes, it may be as im- portant to have specimens of good china, made by Mr. Minton or Mr. Copeland, now, as it is to have that, which is generally called majolica of the time of Kaphaelle, because I suppose the object to be to have an improvement in making porcelain, so as to bring that trade to the highest pitch, and in that way it may be necessary to have specimens of modern times. 3692. In the collection of sculpture, for ex- ample, would you have an exhibition of medieval works of art separate from modern works of art ; or would you put them both into one exhibition ? — I do not know ; it is difficult to say about the modern. 3693. But after the mediaeval' ; take that period ? — Yes ; I think it would be a good thing to have them there ; to have, if not the originals, casts of the works of Michael Angelo, and of later times still; silversmith's works of Cellini, and works of other great artists ; if you cannot have originals, you might have electrotypes, or very good casts. 3694. In an art point of view, do you consider that the mediaeval period ends with the renaissance, or do you consider that to be the historical period ? — 1 think with the renaissance ; I think that is the best division. 3695. In speaking of the Kensington Museum, do you speak merely of the objects to be exhi- bited there, without reference to any locality ? — Yes, without reference to any locality. A. Punizzi, Esq. 16 July. i860. Rigby Wason, Esq. ; Examined. 3696. Chairman.] You have, I believe, some evidence to give to the Committee on the subject of sites for buildings, for the reception of any of the collections that may be removed from the British Museum ? — My principal evidence would be to show that it would be unjust to the public to remove anything to the South Kensington Museum ; I wish to, submit to the Committee two or three propositions, showing that with a view to educational purposes, for I apprehend that that is the object, it would be most unjust to lay out any more public money at Kensington, if other localities can be found where equal facili* ties exist. 3697. Mr. Ayrton.~\ Assuming that it were necessary to remove any part of the collections at the British Museum from, the present site, can 0.96. you suggest to the Committee any place to which the part to be removed might be taken with advantage to the public ? — Yes ; I would suggest Victoria-street, Westminster; and I would suggest that for the ■following reasons : I have heard the evidence of Mr. Cole, in which he stated certain reasons why it would be most advantageous to remove the mediaeval works of art to South Kensington, and, if I remember rightly, he classi- fied those advantages : first, the extent of the ground ; secondly, the cheapness of the ground j, and thirdly, the facility of access. He told you, under the first head, namely, the extent of the ground, that 15 acres was a greater quantity of ground than could be obtained in any other suitable locality ; to which 1 say, that the land in Westminster exceeds 14 acres, and is in a ring rr4 fence ; R. JYason, Esq. 232 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE M. Wason, Esq. 16 July i860. fence ; not like that at South Kensington, which ie divided into two portions. 3698. "Where is that land situate ? — In Victoria- street, going back, towards the park. 3699. All lying together ? — Yes ; in a ring fence. The second advantage that he pointed out was, that the land was much cheaper than could be obtained in any other suitable locality. Mr. Edgar Bowring told the Committee that it would cost 10,000?. an acre if the whole were taken, which would be a great boon to the public, as it was worth 20,000 /. per acre ; to which I say that the nominal cost of the land at "Westminster would not be 7,000 I. per acre, and every shilling of this might be returned to the public, and even with a profit. The third proposition that Mr. Cole laid down, was that there were far more omni- buses which pass South Kensington than any other place. I suppose he means in a suitable locality, not the neighbourhood of the Bank, or any place of that kind ; but I say that at least double the number, as I am informed, pass at each end of Victoria-street, besides those going through it. Fourthly, he stated that there was a very good access from the river steamers, and that South Kensington was little more than a mile from the landing place on the river; I believe it to be considerably more than a mile ; but Victoria-street is close to the landing place at "Westminster, and river steamers are from their cheapness the principal mode of conveyance adopted by the working class. Fifthly, he stated that a railway was proposed to be made, which will go very nearly to the South Kensington Museum; but there is a railway at the end of Victoria-street, which is now in progress, and will be opened in the course of a year; there- fore, I think I can show that if, for other reasons, the site at Westminster is an unobjec- tionable one, at least for the public facilities of access, and the cheapness of procuring the land, it is at least equal, if not far superior, to South Kensington. 3700. "Will you be good enough to explain what you have stated as to the economical mode of obtaining the land in Westminster ; and will you give a more accurate description of the exact locality of defined bv a Purple Tint. MatUAscripb Printed Bock RiMdino Room , . Mineralogy Zoology Botany Antujuttiles . Prints Nov, 10 * 1857 Walby i Sons, lith 0.96 . Ordered REPORT._ BRITISH MUSEUM. TABLE or REFERENCES Saloon Saloon Saloon Elgin 11. Troret Colonnade. Entrance Hull . Roman Gallery. Trustees Room . Clerks Room . Clerks Room . Stitdy. Tint Greece Ron tan Second Gra'co Roman Third, Greece Roman Area . Ass vri a n Tra luicpt . Lycian Gallery. Tirst Elgin Room. . Assyrian Basement Room . NamroiuL, side Gallery. Southern Egyptian Gallery. SccotuI Elgin Room Hellenic Room . Passage rf Staircase . Nimroud Central Saloon . Egyptian Central Saloon . Study. Kouyunjik Gallery. Northern Egyptian Gallery. Egyptian Vestibule North West Staircase . Studies . Passage . Insect Room . Area between Insect " • North West Lobby. Cracherodc Rooin Study. North Central Library. Centre of North Library. South Central Library. North Library. Banksian Room . North Library . North East Lobby. North East Staircase . Transcribers Room . Study Sorting Room . North End erf Royal Library. Centre of ' Royal Library . South End "of Royal Library East additional Library . D? d° I)" D? .. d° D? Maruc.se/-ipt Saloon . Assistant Zeeper's Room Gren lille L ihrary . Waiting lioom . Soutli "Manuscript Room . Passeiqe & Staircase . Study. Manuscript Roam . L)° D? Sorting Room . Washing Room . Dusting Room . Lobby/ Principal Staircase . Area round Nrry Libra 1)? D? B? I)'! m D° Connecting Pass-age . Area . Area . ry. Reading Room . Ordered, by the House of Commons, to le Printed, Sess . 18(i0. Eenry Mansard , Printer. Tin- dcnartment of* Antiquities is defined byaTmk Tint Zoological. Blue Muiwalcgy ........ , Bivmi , Botany. ... . ,. ft e tf Prints ^ ro ,. Nov 10 th 1857. BRITISH MUSEUM PLAN OF THE UPPER FLOOR N° .III in- ir s,' to go .jf, „, & w „, ' "" t— i i i- i i - i i t - tooFect Ma I. by I- Sons Lith 0.96 ,_0rdei Kr:PORT._ BRITISH Ml SK1.\J 38. [ ■ ICC /id TABLE or REFERENCE N? 1 Central Saloon 2 Principal Stairs 3 Ethnographical Room 4 Oriuunent Room 5 Passage G Study 7 B° 8 Medal Room 9 British & Mediated Room 10 Studies II. Bronze Room 12 2", d Vase Room, 13 1" B° T)° 14 ?" Egyptian Room IS If. B" D c 16 JST W Staircase 17 Staircase landing 18 Studies 19 Passage 20 Print Room. 21 Studies 22 Zoological Room N° 1 23 D° J)° N°2 24 D° D c N°3. 25. JJ° D° N°4 26 D? D" N°5 27 Mineral Gallery N° 1 28 B° ..... D°. N°2. 29 V° . D" N°3 30 D?. I)° N°4 31 -B° B" N°S 32 B" ir N°6 33 North Central Room 34. North East. Staircase 35 Eastern Zoological Gallery 36 I)° B" D° 37 ir b° b° 38 P>° .-. B" B" 39 B° B° D" 40 Miwuncdia Saloon 41. Southern Zoological Gallery 42 Botanical Room 43 .... B°.. B" 44. ...... T)° B" 45 B° B" L 0.06 ,_0rdered,by The House of Commons, to be Printed, Sess I860 Hem RE PORT._ BRITISH MUSEUM. BRITISH MUSEUM l LJ < O in a K O b. Q UJ CO £ LJ 0£ UJ H H o I mzmzmm. il N? IV. 77k: Purple tint shews the present limits of the Museum, premises . MONTAGUE PLACE bi bl bl LJ ft < o- t/1 bJ to 3 DC W/////M ; I 00 lOO 90 BO lO 6C 50 40 30 20 lO O Scnh- of leet . WO 200 Mv, 9 th 1857. Moiby 3 X > 7) % N? V. EC < o- co \V \\\ I > 30 H I II > Z H ■o c A. v w h. v v ■ V --- > 3D n in PI NEW LIBRARY AND "0 > 30 -I ■o 30 m w it o > pi 9 -< ID ANTIQUITIES ANTIQUITIES j !(N0W ETHN0L0CY): (NOW MAMMALIAN SALOON AND BOTANY) >- a: u < < o o o o z proposed secretary's OFFICES &c. z Q W a: a u U> O a. O X 0. UJ CC I- 00 Li O < z o r _o— q D o— -LI- — Q O- GREAT RUSSELL STREET y '/■ \\v i='^--'i-^ 4--W -^-r t- /en ^ &v rf Son*; Lith 0.9(1 . Ordered, by the House of Commons, to he Printed. S.«*ss . 1860 Henry Bixruard, Printer. REPORT^ BRITISH MUSEUM. ^Vau of Esfe^ IN TH E PARISHES OF STMARGARETS WESIMMSIER, IN THE COUNTY OF MEEMLJESIX IhrcAased fry HER MAJESTY'S COMMISSIONERS FOR THE EXMIBIirKIDM (OF 1851. Tht Figures indu/Ue Arta-in Square Feel. 0.96 Ordered ."by The House of Commons/to be Printed Session 1860 DESICN HA 1 Skewing a amliruwits gallery on each floor of 1780 feet The ground would; cost the, public jC 4-Z.000 less than room for ouiy cocMbitioTv, the, ground, would; cost the, pubh JO-tM^i £e-Ti Suggested, arrangement of tvuidouy and cases in. order to ficilitate the circulation of Visitors ! J< JcrK Malbv k Sons, lith >ESICN FOR THE WESTMINSTER MUSEUM HAVINC ENTRANCES &. EXITS AT EACH END ON THE GROUND FLOOR. - of 1780 feet m length by 50 feet w width— or a Larger- gallery than. Lice- grand, gallery of Ike Louvre. WO less thxxn a similar eocLent at South Kensington,, and, if the, plans suggested uv lhe> evidence, (page, 28) was adopted ,nhuh would, leave, c cost, the, public nothing & give tU westmmhU advantage of arousing instruction to cl district inhabUaied chiefly by the middle ^working classes. OPEN AREA »i 800 ft VICTORIA STREET S . W . 240 Sea le 4t> feet to the inch W~\ /AU. £t-Vv^. (JO 0^-ctiM<. L- du.(u | ( 036 -Ordered bv REPORT. BRITISH MtTSEUM '<, wkuck would, Uavf, abundant Ue & working classes. z Ui Ul a. o a. Ul ul DC 03 J o^-^-cUas^ CI Cu^cJv^Jln rj- Lju ii A fgtO 0.96 -Ordered, bv the House of Coin mans , to he Printed, Session 1860. 3enr\- Rem sard, . Printer BRITISH MUSEUM. SUGGESTED ADDITIONS ON THE WES 00 m o -n o a) D •x m o i > P0 ' READING REPORT._ BRITISH MUSEUM. H MUSEUM. IONS ON THE WEST SIDE '"■'■ ~——- r ~ r ^-:mmz. ? Triexc from East End of D'' Casts of Frieae from West End of D'.' Group fi-oni Western Pediment of D? Part of Frieze from North Side, of D? in (A m m Scale of Feet . * I | 7W>/mm'/rfffl^m7fflfym^/wv>c MANUSCRIPTS M»iig pa(^»#»//»»i/^ GROUND FLOOR Scale of Feet . a b o u> =5 Z < '///////////..v.-,,. ;„/,;/„..:;/t,W.'.;4'/„ 4.0. ,..,,„„„ rr -<>w r.reettienun 24 7," lif ., I)" 30. \r: „ /J" 00 3). '/;.////) ,*<■ present unappropriated. 32. Sarcophagi troni Toscanctla 33. Farsimilc of Tomb at Corneto. 34. Z>." £« „ Videi . 35. Gr.° X)? Corridor Officers Houses lfU»t . /'du^iu Lt^y /ut the same height as XIV. (19), and similarly lighted by a central skylight; beneath it would be a basement room for the uses of the establish- ment. Room XV. would contain, first, the bas-reliefs of Tiglathpileser II. from the South- west edifice of Nimroud ; and secondly, the Khorsabad collection, or monuments of Sargina, which is next in chronological order to the Nimroud collection. The two colossal bulls of Sanmina are marked in the plan as facing each other, an arrangement common at Khorsabad. Deducting space for tbe bulls, upwards of 80 linear feel of wall-surface would remain in the room, which is considerably more than the bas-reliefs of Tiglathpileser and Saruina require. The new building would necessarily obscure some of the windows of the adjoining base- ment, but this is of minor importance ; and the evil might be diminished on the western and southern side, by leaving open spaces in the floor behind each of the colossal bulls. Between the bulls would be a passage to XVI. (18). Fourth Assyrian or Sennacherib Room. — Here would be the first part of the Fourth Assyrian collection discovered at Koyunjik, the monuments of Sennacherib, now inconveniently Room * divided, and arranged partly in the " Koyunjik Gallery" (24), and paitly in the " Assyrian Basement Room." These monuments consist, almost entirely, of bas-reliefs, extending, as at present arranged, to about 351 feet (208 on the ground floor, and 143 in the basement). In a lofty and wide room, however, such as XVI., an upper row of bas-reliefs might be introduced over many of the smaller slabs, now arranged in a single row only ; by this means the sculptures of Sennacherib might all be included on the east, west and north sides of the room, containing 317 linear feet of wall-space, leaving the south side, or 27 feet, for sculptures of Sardanapalus III., the last monarch of the Assyrian series. In the centre of the room would be glass cases for the numerous tablets, cylinders, and other small objects of this collection, which it is most instructive to exhibit in connexion with the sculptures. The only architectural alteration desirable in the room would be to open skylights in the lateral portion of the roof, and to close those in the central, in order to obtain a sharper light, upon the principle so successfully adopted in the present " Nimroud Side Gallery" (16). XVII. (14). Fifth Assyrian Room. — Here would be the continuation of the monuments Fifth Assyrian of Sardanapalus III., which conclude the Assyrian department; they are at present divided Room. like those of Sennacherib, and part exhibited in the " Koyunjik Gallery," part in the basement room ; altogether they now extend to 373 feet ; but as the greater part might, in Room XVII., be very well arranged in double rows, and some of those in single rows miuht, without injury, be less widely spread, 225 feet would suffice for their exhibition ; of this space 27 feet would be supplied by Room XVI. (] 8), and the remainder by XVII. (14). The centre of the room should be appropriated as the preceding, and the lighting similarly modified. Summary of the Accommodation provided in the Plan for Assyrian Antiquities. Amount of Wall-space now in use for Assyrian Bas-reliefs. Linear feet. Nimroud Side Gallery (16) Nimroud Central Saloon (21) - Assyrian Transept (12) - Koyunjik Gallery (24) Assyrian Basement Room (15) - Bas-reliefs in the middle of Base^ ment Room (15) - 970 254 1,224 Amount of Wall-space in the Plan for Assyrian Bas-reliefs. Linear feet. - 314 95 - 145 344 - 199 278 Room XIII, 82 ,. XIV. 125 „ XV. 242 „ XVI. 243 „ XVII. 1,097 Summary of accom- modation for Assyrian. It thus appears that the wall-space provided in the plan, though 127 feet more than the wall-space in the existing rooms, falls short by 127 feet of the total linear extent of the bas-reliefs, as now arranged. In lieu, however, of placing slabs in the middle of a gallery, as is done in the basement room (15), and as it would likewise be possible to do in XVI. or XVIL, it is thought better, in these last rooms, to provide the additional space by simply carrying up the slabs to a greater height. The space for central cases for small objects, which is at present 4,080 square feet in Rooms (24) and (16), would be 8,170 square feet in Rooms XVI. and XVIL, an amount so abundant as to supersede the necessity for any wall-cases. The accommodation here provided for Assyrian antiquities is little more in quantity, though much better in quality, than the present. But this is nearly the only branch of 0.96. H h 4 the 2 4 8 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE Appendix, No. 8. Persian Room. Lycian Gallery. First Greek Room. the archaeological collections to which there seems little probability of future additions. If, contrary to expectation, any such should be made, a supplemental room might be built on the vacant space to the north of the Assyrian galleries, XVII I. Persian Room. — The sculptures to be here exhibited, which are all bas-reliefs, would probably not occupy more than half the wall-space, which is 47 linear feet. They belong chiefly to the sixth century, B.C., and properly therefore succeed the Assyrian, which range from the tenth to the seventh century, B.C. XIX. (13). Li/cian Gallery. — It is intended to reserve this room for the monuments peculiarly characteristic of Lycia, and to transfer to the Greek galleries those in which the Greek element is predominant; such as, particularly, the sculptures of the Ionic trophy monument or heroum from Xanthus, now scattered over the room, and, if necessary, the casts from the rock tomb at Myra. This would leave abundant space for the purely Lycian remains, The harpy to,n)b, of which the bas-reliefs furnish a very important illustration of archaic Greek art, might best be placed in an isolated position near the entrance to the Greek galleries, where it would be favourably lighted and conspicuously seen. Its present place might be tilled by the rude sarcophagus with sculptures of lions. The lighting of the Lycian room, which is very defective, should be improved by an alteration in the roof; but it is thought better not to enter into the details of such alteration in the present paper. XX. (10). First Greek or Inscription Boom. — The room beneath this (No. 379, Plan 16, 1) being supposed to be withdrawn from exhibition, the staircase at the west end should be separated by a partition, and entered through a private door. All Greek inscriptions, except the sepulchral, and such as are engraved on architectural or sculptural monuments, would be here collected. At this point the new buildings commence with — Second Greek Room. XXI. Second Greek or Branchidce Room, 30 feet by 24. — The height both of this and the four succeeding rooms should be about 20 feet. This would contain the earliest Greek sculptures, of which the principal are those procured by Mr. Newton from Branchidse. The ten seated statues would be arranged on each side, as in the " Sacred Way" at that place, and the recumbent inscribed lion and the sphinx placed at the end of the room. Third Greek Room. XXII. Third Greek Boom, 24 feet by 17.— This would contain other archaic works, •ncluding the casts from Selinus. l D Fourth Greek Room. XXIII. Fourth Greek or JEginelan JRoom, 38 feet by 24. — Here would be fixed, in two recesses, the restorations of the two pedimental groups from iEgina, which are exactly of the length of this room, and which might be placed at a more convenient level for examina- tion than their present elevated position in room (19). Fifth Greek Room. XXIV. Fifth Greek Room, 17 feet by 24. — On a pedestal, facing the great Greek gallery, might stand the semi-archaic Apollo, from Byzantium. XXV. Sixth Greek or Phigaleian Room, 38 feet by 24. — Here would be the casts from the Temple of Theseus, and the sculptures and casts from the Temple of Wingless Victory, both of the middle of the fifth century, B.C.; also the Phigaleian collection, which is a somewhat later production of the same school. The friezes, arranged in two rows, would just fill the room. XXVI. Seventh Greek or Parthenon Room, — Here would commence the grand suite of galleries for large sculptures, of which the general breadth would be 42 feet, and the height from 30 to 35 feet. By its side would run a secondary suite, 20 feet wide, and from 15 to 20 feet high, for minor specimens, of which the interest generally is rather archaeological than artistic. These latter objects are both more conveniently classified, and more favour- ably seen, in small rooms ; if placed in large galleries, beside grand monumental works, they lose importance themselves, whilst they flitter away the effect of what is reallv more valuable. The Seventh Greek Room, which is 241 feet long, would contain only the remains of the Parthenon ; which might be arranged as indicated in the Plan, so as at. once to keep the pedimental groups and the frieze from interfering with each other, and to distinguish, more accurately than is now done, the original connexion or disconnexion of the several slabs of the frieze. As we possess the entire frieze from the east end of the temple, and casts of the entire frieze from the west, these two are here arranged opposite each other towards the middle of the two side walls of the room. ' On either side are the slabs from the north and south flanks of the temple, which are mostly disconnected. In front of the casts from the west is a proposed full-sized model of part of the entablature, supported by- one original and five restored capitals, with the upper parts of their shafts, and incorpora- ting 10 of the metopes, so as to explain their original combination with the architecture. The total height of this model might be about 18 feet. The metopes not included in it should be attached to the wall opposite, over the frieze. The finest of the pedimental oroups- would face the grand entrance from the Lycian Gallery, through which the whole mi°'ht be seen in one view, from any distance less than 48 feet. If it were desired to retain the two small models of the Parthenon in the room, they might stand near the south end. Eighth Greek Room. XXV] I. Eighth Greek or Erechtheum Room, 65 feet by 26, for monuments of the era between Phidias and Scopas, of which the principal are the remains of the Erechtheum. XXVIII. Ninth Sixth Greek Room. Seventh Greek Room. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 249 XXVIII. Ninth Greek, or Mausoleum Boom, 120 feet in length, 42 in breadth, and 80 Appendix, No. 8. across the transept. — Here would be,.l. The marbles procured by Lord Stratford and Mr. JNewton, from (he Mausoleum of Halicarnassus ; in the west transept, the group from „. , „ the quadriga, and in the southern part of the room the other important sculptural and NinthGrcekKooi!1 - architectural remains of the building, including ihe frieze. 2. In the east transept, the colossal lion from Cnidus, with a few other sculptures of the same" school. 3. In the northern part of the room, the Xanthian Ionic monument, here placed for comparison with the remains of the Mausoleum. The whole upper portion of this monument, commencing with the higher of the two friezes which surrounded the original base, might be recon- structed, though not restored, and would form a striking termination to the vista through the galleries. The lower frieze might be arranged against the adjoining walls of the room. XXIX. Tenth Greek Room. — Having thus passed through the great monumental series Tenth Greek Room. of Greek sculptures in chronological order, the visitor would return south by the side rooms, containing minor remains of the same school. The Tenth Greek Room would be 42 feet by 20, and would contain the latest of the smaller sculptures. XXX. Eleventh Greek Room, 33 feet by 20. — This should be appropriated to the small fragments from the Mausoleum, which would thus be in immediate connection with its larger sculptures, without impairing their grandeur of effect. XXXI. XXXII. Ticelfth and Thirteenth Greek Rooms, together 135 feet in length and 20 in breadth. — The exact position of the wall separating these rooms might be reserved till the arrangement of their contents was settled. In one might be architectural fragments, from buildings not represented in the large galleries; in the other, small tablets, votive offerings, altars, and other minor sculptures. XXXIII. Fourteenth Greek or Sepulchral Room, 93 feet by 18. — Here would be all the Greek sepulchral monuments now in the basement. The casts from the sculptured tomb at Myra, of which the style is more Greek than Lycian, might also be here placed, as indi- cated in the plan, in case it should be thought desirable to remove ihem from the Lycian Room, though the expediency of this transfer may perhaps be doubted. Wherever placed, these casts ought to be so put together as to explain the true.arrangement of the originals. Eleventh Greek Room. Twelfth and Thir- teenth Greek Rooms Fourteenth Greek Room. Summary of the Accom modation provided in the Plan for Greek Sculptures. om Superfic ial j Area, feet Length 150 1 of Wall-space. cRo First Greel 1,260 square inear feet. Second » - - 720 >> - 85 r> Third - >> - - 408 if - 44 jt Fourth »> - - 912 >i - 76 >> Fifth - >y - - 408 » - 12 » Sixth - )> - - 912 v> - 104 >) Seventh f> - - 10,122 » - 494 >7 Eighth » - - 1,690 » - 134 )) Ninth ?j - - 6,104 >; - 363 J> Tenth j) - - 840 » - 109 Jt Eleventh jy - - 660 >> - 96 >> ' Twelfth Thirteenth >> 3) - -1 -! 2,700 >> - 326 » Fourteenth ») 1,674 » 198 ;j 27,410 2,191 >> Summary of accom- modation for Greek. XXXIV. Etruscan Room. — The next parallel on the ground floor would be devoted to Etruscan Room, the monuments of ancient Italy. The earliest are the Etruscan, which, being altogether taken from tombs, would properly be placed adjacent, on the one side to the Greek, on the other to the Roman, sepulchral collections. The principal portion of the Etruscan Room would be 55 feet by 40, with additional recesses at the south end, the whole about 20 feet high. Two rows of pilasters would divide the room into three compartments, the central for the gangway, the other two to be fitted up as a series of tombs, of which the sides would be formed of the mural restorations, with fac-similes of paintings from Corneto and Vulci.. Within these restored tombs would be such sarcophagi as we possess, found in the tombs themselves. The fac-similes of the painted roofs of two of the tombs might be fixed above them, at such a height as not to obstruct the light. In the central compartment, which contains six shallow recesses between the pilasters, might be monuments from various tombs other than those here restored. XXXV. Staircase Room, 40 feet by 30, and of the same height as the three united Staircase Room, stories of the western galleries. Four successive flights of steps would be required to reach each floor. The landings between the first and second, and between the third' and fourth flights, might each be supported by Caryatid or Atlantic figures, which would give 0.9a. II the 250 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE Appendix, No. 8. Private staircase. First Graeco-Roman Room. Second Grseeo- Roman Room. Third Grseco-Roman Room. Summary of accom- modation for Graeco- Roman. the whole composition an ornamental effect, as seen from the east side. Beneath one side of this staircase might be a private one leading to the western basement. To the north is another private staircase, conducting to the basement under the Greek galleries. The adjoining passage leads to — XXXVI. First Grceco-Roman Room.r— The Etruscan monuments are succeeded chrono logically by the Graeco-Roman, here placed so as to adjoin the galleries both of Greek and of Roman art. In accordance with the character of Giseco- Roman sculpture, the apart- ments containing it should be somewhat ornamentally constructed and arranged, as in the great continental museums, where works of this class form the staple of the collections. The position of the principal objects in all this series of rooms is marked in the plan, without distinguish. ng them individually, as none are of such a character as to require any special architectural provision. The fir-t room is 106 feet by 26, exclusive of the alcoves. Its height need not, for the display of statuary, exceed 20 feet; but if, for architectural effect, ii vaulted ceiling- is preferred, the height must be increased. In the Braccio Nuovo, in the Vatican Museum, winch is probably the finest gallery of this kind in Europe, and has a cxlindrical vault, with a central skylight, the proportion of height to bre.id'th is about. 37 feet to 27 ; but in the darker climate of London the height should not. .if possible, exceed the breach. XXXVII Second Grceco- Roman Room, or Rotunda, 60 feet in diameter, and about 60 feet high in the centre, being surmounted by a hemispherical dome. — This room is, with slight variations, and on a somewhit smaller scale, a copy of the Rotunda in the Museum of Berlin, an apartment universally admired for its architectural beauty, and only ('efecti've as a hall for sculpture from the unnecessary smallness of the central skylight. The entablature over the columns would support a gallery, opening into the first floor of the western buildings. XXXVIII. Third Gram- Roman Room, similar to. the first, but only 101 feet long, ex- clusive of the northern alcove. The spaces between the lateral alcoves on the p east side of the First and Third Graco- Roman Rooms might either be covered with- glass, or left open for ventilation, though the second arrangement would involve a provision for the drainage below. The amount of accommodation for Grseco-Roman sculptures cannot, from the form of the rooms, be stated wi'.h the same exactness as that for the Greek. Exclusive of the alcoves, there would be in the — Means of future enlargement. Western Galleries. First Roman Room. Hall. Second Roman Room. First Gallery- Third Gallery Superficial Area. 2,756- square feet. 2 626 5,382 Length of Wall-space. 100 linear feet. 152 332 The Rotunda would not have available space in proportion to its size. Twelve statues or busts between the columns^ and perhaps a large sculpture in the centre, would be the natural complement of the room. The wall-space behind the columns would not be available for sculpture. The total accommodation in the three rooms would amply, suffice for our present collection, even somewhat enlarged. As it increased, however, further space might be obtained by erecting in the first and third rooms transverse walls, opposite the alcoves in the Roman galleries, thus subdividing the first room into three principal compartments with a small lobby at each end, and the third into three compartments (of which the most northern would need some modification), with a lobby at the south end. The doorways through these walls might be 12 feet wide, so as to preserve the continuous appearance of the suite ; and they would still leave 112 feet of additional wall space in the first room and 84 in the third. The lighting would be somewhat improved by such an alteration. The last suite of galleries on the ground floor would contain the Roman and Phoenician remains. To avoid any obscuration from the houses on the west side of Charlotte-street the windows should be as high in the wall as possible, and as broad as architectural pro'l priety would. admit, whilst the rooms should be not less than 25 feet high. XXXIX First Roman Room, 110 feet by 28, exclusive of the alcoves. It would contain mosaics,, including those from Carthage, and miscellaneous sculptures,, aliars,, architectural fragments, &c. : the mosaics indifferently placed on all sides of the room, the sculptures aa the east side and against the two end walls. XX. Hall, 56 feet by 17. Here might be an entrance from Charlotte-street, which on many occasions would furnish a convenient relief to the principal entrance to the Museum. It would open immediately into the Rotunda, and through the vista beyond would be seen in the distance, the east of the colossal head from Abousimbul. Within the two abutments of the Rotunda would be recesses fur the attendants to sell catalogues, receive umbrellas, &c. XLI. Second Roman or Iconographical Room, 54 feet by 28, without the alcoves. This would contain the series of portrait statues- and busts, in chronological order. The west or dark side of the room could only be used for very inferior sculptures. XLI I. Third SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 251 Appendix, No. 8. -XLII. Third (or Angio-) iRoman Boom, the same size asthe preceding, for Roman monu- • meats found in this country] The rude character of many would admit of placing theni on Third Roman Room, the west side. XLIII. Fourth Woman or Sepulchral Room, 82 feet by 26, containing Roman sarcophagi Fourth Roman for which the "west side might be partially available, and sepulchral cippi, and in>criptions. R° om - At the north-east angle would be a Columbarium, 23 feet by 14, fitted up like that in the present Sepulchral Basement Room, but with the advantage of a skylight. Summary of Accommodation provided in the Plan for Roman Sculptures. Summary of accom- modation for Roman. Superficial Area (without alcoves). First Roman Room 3,080 sq .are fe.t. 227 lii lear feet. Second „ 1,5 12 j; 126 >> Third „ - 1,512 J) 126 7 Fourth „ - 2,132 >1 170 >> Columbarium 322 >> 68 >> 8,558 717 >> Length of Wall-space. The first three rooms, when their contents sufficiently increased, would admit of an easy Means of future alteration, which would not merely increase the wall-space, but miu-h improve the lighting, enlargement. by simply inserting; transverse walls between each window. Against these walls the sculptures would have a true side light, whilst those against the east wall would be protected from double lights. It may even be doubted whether such an arrangement should not be adopted in the first instance, without waiting till the additional accommodation is actually required,. XLIV. Phoenician Boom, 26 feet square. Here would be the stela and bas-reliefs from Phoenician Room. Carthage end its vicinity, with the few Punic inscriptions which we possess. The room contains 676 superficial feet, and 88 of v\all-spac j . XLV. A similar room to the preceding, which, in case of necessity, might serve for Supplemental extending the Phcenician collection* In the meantime it might pei haps be used for exhibiting Room. such miscellaneous inferior sculptures as could be advantageously weeded from the regular series, though circumstances might temporarily prevent their removal from the Museum. In such case it might be entitled " Supplemental Room." Plan of Upper Floors. * In accordance with a suggestion made in the Committee now sitting, the writer has added Upper floor; advan- to the new buildings proposed in his plan another story, or second floor, over the first. The tages and evils of a advantage of this is, that it would provide for objects which it might be more costly or.ineon- second story, venient to accommodate elsewhere. But it involves necessarily two evils : 1, That the height of the second floor, involving an ascent of perhaps nearly 100 steps {though this is not more than is common in continental museums), might excite complaint in English visitors. 2. That so lofty a building, by excluding all oblique rays from the east side of the Grseco-Roman galleries, would make the light on the statues and busts there placed somewhat too vertical. With regard to the collections to be provided for on the upper floors, it is here assumed, Collections retained though of course without any express authority, that Ethnography and Oriental Antiquities or removed. would be removed from the Museum, and better accommodated elsewhere. The British and Mediaeval collections, however, are supposed to be retained; if they are removed, a modifi- cation of this plan must in consequence be made. First Floor of New Buildings for Antiquities. The apartments should all be about 18 feet high, the windows of the same breadth as these below, but, except in the Terracotta Room, only about eight feet high, and as near the ceiling as possible. On the east side should be corresponding windows, so that each wall would be illuminated ; for cross lights, though so injurious to sculptures, are generally desirable for galleries filled with wall-cases. All the windows should have ground glass, to prevent, injury to the collections from the sun. 1. Vase Gallery. — 222 feet long, the southern half 26 feet wide, and the northern 28 feet. Vase Gallery. The wall-cases should be about eight feet high, like those in our First Vase Room ; and the transverse projections, flanked by pilasters, would be only of the .same height, so as not to shut out the view of the upper part of the gallery ; having glass on each side, they would serve for vases with double paintings, such as we now exhibit only in dwarf central cases. The most important vases should "stand isolated on tables, or pedestals, on each side the gangway; as in the present arrangement of the Temple Collection. Although the superfi- Its accommodation. cial area of this gallery (5,992 feet) is little more than a third greater than that occupied by vases in the present buildings (4,321 feet), the amount of accommodation it would afford is nearly double. For the present wall-cases, eight feet high, extend to 146 feet of linear mea- 0.96. I 1 2 surement; First floor struction. its con- 25* APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE Appendix, No. 8. Proposed Etruscan apartment. Terracotta Room. Gallery of Rotunda. Accommodation for Terracottas. Glass Room. B.onze Gallery.' Its accommodation. surement ; those 10 feet high will, when the collection is fully arranged, extend to 84 feet; the whole therefore may be reckoned as equivalent to 251 feet of cases, eight feet high. The total extent, however, of such wall-cases in the proposed gallery is 455 feet. The projec- tions also, with the tables and pedestals, may safely be estimated as providing twice the accommodation For vases painted on both sides which is now furnished by the dwarf central c.ises, besides exhibiting them much more conveniently. It should be added that the vases would be belter lighted than at present ; whilst the length and comparative openness of the gallery would produce a more striking impression on the passing visitor. The accommodation here provided being so ample, it might be desirable to appropriate one compartment of the gallery to an exclusively Etruscan collection, comprising not merely ihe pottery of the Etruscans, properly so called, but that for which they were really more distinguished in ancient times, their bronze and other metal work. 2. Terracotta Room. — 56 feet by 17. As no windows could be made on the east side, there should be no cases on the west ; but the western windows, which do not correspond with the others of this story, should extend from near the ceiling to four or five feet from the floor. A sloping case might then be placed in each window, for lamps and other small objects, requiring a strong light. Against the east wall should be cases for vases, and other large objects. 3. Gallery of the Rotunda. — From 180 to 190 feet in circumference, and about 9 feet wide. The powerful light from the centre of the dome would be favourable to terracotta statuettes and bas-reliefs, which could all be contained in shallow wall-cases, that would not materially narrow the gangway.* The Townley collection of bas-reliefs, now in the Second Vase Room, might be arranged in panels all round, so as to produce a decorative effect, agreeable to their original destination. The entire space provided in these two rooms is much more than our terracottas can absolutely require; but this vtill facilitate an ornamental arrangement of the collection, appropriate to the character of the larger room. The small spaces between the Rotunda and the main building would serve for closets, 4. Glass Room, 28 feet by 26. — The fittings proper for glass being different from those of terracottas, it is desirable to give it a separate room. This should be similarly arranged to the Vase Gallery, with wall-cases eight feet high, and table-cases in the centre. 5. Bronze Gallery, three apaitments united, together 82 feet by 28. — As the advantage of a skylight for the bronze statuettes is necessarily sacrificed by the adoption of an upper floor, it would be best to place them, as far as possible, against each side of the transverse projections, separating those sides by internal partitions, and employing some contrivance to protect the bronzes from the cross light of the further windows, an arrangement possible with small objects in glass cases, though not with large statuary. In the middle of the gallery might be table-cases, placed longitudinally, or important objects on pedestals. The increase of accommodation ill the Bronze Gallery, as in the Vase Gallery, is more than propor- tionate to the increase of space. Though the superficial area is only 2,296 feet, in lieu of our present quantity, 2,021, the extent of wall-cases, which now is only 138 feet, would, even allowing doorways of 12 feet wide between each of these compartments, be increased to 250 feet, equivalent, after allowing for the difference in height of the cases, to 200 feet. This, if the Etruscan bronzes were transferred as already suggested, would liberally provide for the Greek and Roman collection. Second floor ; its constiuetion. British Rooms. Mediseval Rooms. Summary of accom- modation for British and Mediaeval. Second Floor of New Buildings for Antiquities. Each room should be from 15 to 18 feet high; the windows exclusively on the east side, As the aspect is nearly and extending from the ceiling to four or five fret from the floor. N.E., the sun could not be injurious, and the glass of the windows therefore had better be unground. 1. British Rooms, each 27 feet by 26. — That which adjoins the staircase (and if necessary those on each side), should be lighted from the roof, and have wall-cases all round, with a separate case in the centre. The other rooms should have wall-cases on the west side and shallower cases against the transverse walls. Two long table-cases in each room mio-ht extend from the windows to a line with the doorway. 2. Mediceval Rooms, each 28 feet by 27, and similarly arranged to the British. Though the entire superficial area in the British and Mediaeval Rooms is only 5,072 feet, in lieu of 4,046, the amount in the present building, yet the wall-space is 466 feet, instead of only 297, and the cases, having no windows above, might, if necessary, be made 10 feet high, like the present. The gain in table cases would be much greater. In lieu of six there would be twelve, each 16 or 18 feet long, instead of 10 ; whilst the central case in the room adjoining the staircase might be at lea*t as capacious as the large separate case in the present British and Mediaeval Room. The lighting would throughout be more advantageous for these collections than at present ; and the rooms, from the character of the windows might be bright instead of gloomy. 3. Gem * In the accompanying Plan, pilasters of unnecessary size have been inadvertently introduced into this gallery, reducing both the extent of the wall-cases, and the breadth of the gangway, in a manner never intended. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 253 Appendix, No. 8. 3. Gem Room. — As the contents of this and the succeeding rGom have more or less intrinsic value, an iron door might be placed at the end of the Mediaeval Gallery, to be Gem R°° m - open only when the public are admitted to the Museum. The Gem Room, 28 feet by 27, would be fitted like the preceding. The gems would occupy the table-cases, which would accommodate a far larger collection than ours, and would exhibit them in the best possible light for such objects. In the wall-cases might be displayed the gold and silver ornaments, which would have much more space than as now arranged, though in a room only of the same size. 4. Coin and Medal Gallery, 56 feet by 17. — As the dome of the Rotunda would only Coin and Medal rise a few feet above the floor of this gallery, and would, from its curvature, recede to a dis- Gallery. tance of several feet, windows on the east side would be quite unobstructed. In each might stand a table-case, six or seven feet long, on which would be exhibited, under glass, a series of coins and medals which, though not the most valuable of our collection in the eyes of a numismatist, would suffice to give the public an interesting and instructive view of the monetary art. In the drawers of these cases might be kept the moulds and casts of the coin collection. Against the side walls might be upright cases, or frames, for extending the exhibition; but the walls facing the windows, having a front light, would be unsuitable for coins or medals, and must be employed for some other purpose, 5. The rooms which remain would be a private suite for the Coin Department. The pre- Private Rooms of sent rooms of that department are arranged in an order the reverse of what is best for Coin Department, security and convenience, the coins being kept in an outer room, which must be passed in going either to the Keeper's study, or to the Ornament Room, a room open to all persons merely on application. In the accompanying plan the contents of the Ornament Room have been transferred to the Gem Room ; and the Keeper's study is placed near the beginning ofthe private suite. Outer Coin Room, 28 feet by 27, for the freer exhibition of coins to properly introduced Outer Coin Room, persons, for the use of artists copying coins or other minute objects, and all other purposes now served by the Medal Room, except the custody ofthe collection, and work of the department. Inner Coin Room, 55 feet by 28, secured by a strong iron door, of which the Keeper, Inner Coin Room. Assistant Keeper, and principal Librarian, would alone have keys. — In this room, to which none but the departmental staff would be admitted, the coins and medals would be pre- served, arranged and catalogued ; they would be carried hence by the officers into the Outer Room when required for inspection. The room is somewhat more than half as large again as the present Medal Room ; and as the absence of visitors, and of the barriers their presence now requires, would leave the whole space free, there would be ample accommodation for anv probable enlargement of the collection. The library of the department might be arranged partly in this, partly in the Outer Room. Private Rooms. Of the apartments reserved as private, two are placed at the south end of the first and Private Rooms in second floors, and each of these might, if necessary, be subdivided into two small studies, Plan, each 26 feet by 13, for the use either of officers or students. Private rooms are, however, Others suggested, required on the around floor, to replace the female student's room, and the Assistant Keeper's study, proposed" to be removed for the new-Nimroud and Khorsabad Galleries. The most effectual provision for these and other wants would be one which has been suggested during the present inquiry, namely, to transfer to the Department of Antiquiiies the several rooms now occupied as the Trustees' Room and adjoining offices, and to remove the official establishment to new rooms to be erected on the east side of the Museum. Should this be found impracticable, the present Insect Room, and adjoining studies, might, in the event of the transfer of this part of the Zoological Department to the upper floor, furnish the required accommodation. In default of both these alternatives, rooms might be constructed north ofthe new Assyrian Galleries, though, in the opinion ofthe writer, this ground should only be built over as a last resort. Basement Floor. The basement, both of the old and new buildings, would, though unfitted for exhibition, Use of basement, and shut up from the public, be more or less available for workshops, storing-places, retiring rooms, &c. No part of the existing basement would be made altogether useless, though the rooms under the present Greek Galleries would all be somewhat darkened. The Lighting of base- basement under the new buildings may, with reference to lighting, be divided into three ment. classes: 1. The rooms under the first" six or small Greek rooms, the south end ofthe . Etruscan Room, and the north end of the Greek Galleries, would all have ordinary windows, and be better lighted than any part of the basement now used for the purposes mentioned. 2. The rooms under the Roman Galleries, which would also have windows, would be less well lighted than the preceding, being some feet below the level of Charlotte- street, and being further somewhat obscured by the grating over the area, and the parapet to screen it from passengers in the street, which would both probably be thought necessary. 3. The basement under the Grseco-Roman, and greater part of the small Greek Galleries, would receive a partial light from the openings between them. To increase this, however, and to furnish the only light to the basement under the Fourteenth Greek Room, 0.96. I 1 3 and 254 APPENDIX TO REPORT JEOM THE Appendix, No. 8. and the apartments adjoining its west side, panels of strong glass or open metal work might — — be inserted at convenient places in the various floors, and sesrw rathef as an .oa-nameni to them. With the aid of some such arrangement, the last-mentioned portions of the basamtent would serve as storing-rooms; in default of it, they could merely be available for any apparatus used in heating or ventilation. Summary of space General Summary of Additional Space provided for th z Collections of for Antiquities. Antiquities. I,. By alterations : Superficial Area in Square Feet. Room III, (69) ... „ XIIL (15; . - - - - 2,660 2,970 5.63© II. By new Buildings : 1. Ground Floor (Sculptures): Third Assyrian Room - - - - 1,880 Greek Rooms - Etruscan Room - 27,410 2,922 Grseco-Roman (including Alcoves) (about) Roman - - - - ditto - ditto - 9,036 8,964 'Phoenician ------ 676 50,888 2. First Floor (Minor Objects, Classical) : Vase Gallery - Terracotta Room - 5,992 952 Rotunda Gallery (about) - Glass Room - 1,850 706 Bronze Gallery - - - - - 2,2.96 11,796 3. Second Floor (Minor Objects, Miscella- neous) : British and Medieeval Galleries 5,072 Gem Room - 756. Coin and Medal Gallery - Outer Coin and Medal Room 952 756 Inner ditto - 1,540 ' 9,076 Gross Total 71,760 77,390 Extra space. Space in basement. Against this must be set off the space now used for the collections of Antiquities, and proposed to be abandoned, as follows : Brought down - - - Deduct, Basement rooms unsuitable for exhibition (about) - .-_,_. „ Rooms transferred to Natural History : Public Galleries - - - - - Rooms open under restrictions Net Addition This is somewhat less than the additional space demanded in the estimate supplied to the Committee by Mr. Hawkins ; but it supposes the removal of the Oriental and Ethnographical Collections, which Mr. Hawkins, when considering only the existing department, and not the question of its modification, included in its contents. In addition, however, to the space provided for the collections, the new buildings would comprise about 8,600 feet on the three principal floors, for studies, closets, staircases, &c. The space in the basement it is unnecessary to estimate in detail, being manifestly super- abundant lor its purpose. Natural - - 77,390 - 14,500 19,185 1,749 20,931 - 35,434 - 41,956 SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. 255 Natural History. The Plan of the Upper Floors shows the. accommodation which- might be provided, upon the present scheme, for the Departments of Natural History, by transferring to them the galleries and studies on 1 that floor now occupied by Antiquities, and constructing an upper room on the site of the staircase, to unite the Central Saloon (Return 379, Plan 18, No. l) into which the new principal staircase would conduct, with the galleries so transferred. The apportionment of the space amongst the different collections of Natural History must be left to more competent authorities than the present writer. He may, however, add a few words on the general character of the. apartments comprehended in the transfer. The public galleries are similar to the present Zoological Galleries, not merely in their structure, but in their fittings. The wall-cases- therefore" might be available, without alteration, for the new collections; and the central cases might either be retained for Natural History, or removed to the new upper floors for Antiquities, as was found more convenient. The present Medal and Ornament Rooms might serve for the use of students, whilst the four private studies numbered 6, 7, 10, and 10 in Plan 18-, would be used by the officers. The rooms for students might, if necessary, be further increased by a trifling alteration, in the event of the official establishment being transferred to the east of the Museum. Ln place of the closer adjoining the Medal Room, a private staircase might descend by a few steps to the entresol below, the whole of which might then be made an appendage to the upper, instead of ihe k>wer floor, and would furnish' two convenient rooms for students,, over those numbered 4 and 6 in Plan 17. The- same- staircase,, falling in wilh one already existing between the entresol and Secretary's office,, would, supply a private, communication bet-.veen the upper, and. lower floors,, in, lieu of that abolished for the construe ion of the First Egyptian Room (III. 69), The total area of the apartments transferred to Natural' History may be summarily staled thus : — Appendix, No. 8. Space transferred to Natural History. Public Galleries. Studies for officers and students. Suggestion for in- creasing those for students. Summary of space for Natural History. Public Galleries : Present Galleries of Antiquities Proposed room over III. (69) - - - - — Without Entresol. With Entresol. 19,185 2,660 21,845 1,749 868 936 21,845 Student's Working Rooms - Officer's Studies ------- Closets, Passages, and Staircase - - - - - 3,168 868 1,557 Total Additi ON - - - 25,398 27,438 Independently of the increased accommodation, the advantage of acquiring for Natural Convenience of History the exclusive possession of the upper floor is obvious and unquestionable, though giving it a distinct the gain is not limited to that department. By separating its galleries entirely from those " oor - of Antiquities, the practical superintendence of each would be simplified ; one department would no longer be a necessary thoroughfire to another; the confusion of ideas experienced by ordinary visitors from the juxtaposition of collections so incongruous would be avoided ; and as each department would have a separate entrance, a facility would be given for varying; their periods or regulations of admission, as the circumstances of each might at any time require; considerations which must hereafter acquire increasing weight in proportion to the increasing magnitude of the Museum. Estimate of Approximate Expense. in acre The ground immediately round the Museum, on the average of its three sides, is valued Expense of ground. the Report of the Special Committee of Trustees (26 Nov. 1859), at about 43,500 /. per The houses in Charlotte-street are inferior in character to those on the other two sides, and might doubtless be purchased at a proportionately less price; but the writer, being anxious to err only on the safe side, assumes the average price as necessary. The ground proposed to be taken is about 450 feet long, by a breadth generally of 150 feet, but at the south end not exceeding 110 feet; so that the total area is about 64,700 square feet, or somewhat less than an acre and a half. The price, therefore, may be set down at 65,000 /. Buildings are estimated in the same report to cost 2 I. per square foot, reckoned upon Of buildings. the total internal area of the principal floors, without the basement. This calculation is founded on buildings consisting of a basement, a ground floor, and one upper floor. The buildings proposed by the writer are in one respect more costly than these, as their base- ments bear a larger proportion to those floors on which the cost is calculated. But in two other respects they are more economical: 1. Because they include, in one part, a second floor, which swells the space from which the expense is calculated, without involving any addition to the basement. 2. Because some of the galleries on the ground floor are not really separate buildings, but parts of a single block of building, subdivided merely by o 96 I I 4 partition 2n6 APPENDIX TO REPORT FROM THE Appendix, No. 8. partition walls. On the whole, therefore, the estimate of 2 I. per foot seems the safest basis of calculation. Now the quantity of internal area or floor space in the proposed new-buildings is — For the collections ... - 71,760 square feet. For studies, staircases, &c. - 8,600 „ Of alterations. Means of future extension. Total 80,360 This gives, therefore, 160,720/. for buildings, which, added to 65,000 I. for ground, would amount 10 225,720 I. A further sum must be added for alterations of the existing building, particularly for the removal and reconstruction of the staircase, and the formation of the two rooms described as IN. (69) and XIII. (15). The wriier has no data for estimating the expense of these alterations; but assuming them, quite conjecturally, at 10,000 I., the total cost would be 235,720 /. The largeness of the valuation allowed for the ground gives reason to believe that the actual expense of ground and* buildings would not exceed, and might probably fall short of, this estimate. If ever hereafter further extensions should be required, they might be obtained without material disturbance of the proposed galleries. For Antiquities, one or more additional houses might be purchased either in Bedford-square, commencing with No. 4, or in Char- lotte-street, commencing with No. 3. The former would be required for the prolongation of the Greek, Grseco-Roman, or Roman Galleries ; the latter for the Etruscan or Phoenician. For the minor collections on the upper floors either side would be equally appropriate. If further space were needed for Natural History, galleries might be built as suggested by Professor Maskelyne, extending either northwards to Montague-place, or eastwards to Montague-street, as found convenient. July 1860. Edm. Oldfield. INDEX TO THE REPORT FEOM THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. Ordered, ly The House of Commons, to be Printed, 10 August i860. [ 1 ] N D E X. [N~.B. — In this Index the Figures following the Names of the Witnesses refer to the Questions in the Evidence; those following App.p. to the Paging of the Appendix; and the Numerals following Hep. p. to the Paging of the Report.] ADMINISTRATION of the Museum. See Organization and Administration. Antiquities. Very imperfect manner in which the different collections of antiquities in the Museum are exhibited on account of the want of space, Panizzi 11-26 Question as to the north library being made available for antiquities ; great expense and inconve- nience if the books were removed from this library, ib. 27-34 Consideration of the question of erecting galleries in connexion with an extension to the north or west, such o-alleries being devoted to antiquities, ib. 93-107. 109 Nature of the arrangements advisable in regard to ihe antiquities, &c, in the event of a removal of the natural history collection; additional space still required, ib. 145-155- 19 6_1 99 7 Suggested building adjoining the print-room, as additional accommodation for the antiquities, ib. 149-152. 167-170. 263-267. Less disadvantage in the removal to Kensington of the antiquities than of the natural history collection, Gray 785-789. 796, 797 Considerable improvement made since 1852 in the accommodation devoted to the department of art, Sir R. I. Murchison 1242. Several subdivisions of antiquities, and officers in charge of each, Hawkins 1494-1501 Evidence as to the insufficiency of the present space and the unsuitableness of the present arrangements in the department of antiquities, ib. 1504 et seq. 1543-1547. 1713- jy^o Total of 75,000 square feet now occupied by the antiquities ; total of 122,000 estimated to be required, exclusive of the basement rooms, ib. 1548-1561. 157 1 " 1 575- 171^-1726. 1768-1774. 1799 The annual grant for the purchase of antiquities is now 3000/. ib. 1588-1590. 1748 Objection to the removal of the antiquities from the present' central site, ib. 1667, 1668— — Explanation relative to the department library attached to the collection of antiquities, ib. 1800-1813. Statement, as furnished by Mr. Hawkins, of the space now occupied by the several departments of antiquities, and of the additional space required, Oldfield 2104 Cry- ing want of space in the antiquities department, Smirke 2290 -Greater expenditure in purchases for the antiquities department than for any other department, Panizzi 3619-3622. > Remarks by the Committee upon the amount of additional space required for the col- lections of antiquities ; expediency of the buildings being constructed on such a plan a would admit of easy, cheap, and systematic extension, Rep. p. xi The Committee conclude that it is indispensable that sufficient space should be immediately acquired in connexion with- the British Museum to meet the requirements of the several departments under the head of Antiquities, ib. Necessity of further space at the Museum for the department of antiquities, even if the natural history collections be removed, ib. p. xiii. See also Arrangement. Exhibition. Increase of Accommodation. Mediava Collection. Mexican Antiquities . Natural History Collection. Officers of the Museum. Plans. Restor ations. Sculptures. Arrangement (Sculptures, . „. ..... „ -"" -How mediaeval collections should be arranged, 2924: >ial mediaeval collection "; the objects to be comprised ahi 2921-2923. 2976, 2977- Befinition of the term " general mediaeval collection "; the objects to be comprised should date from the fifth century, 2925-2930. 2979H2982. Grounds for concluding that the locality of the South Kensington Museum is not inconvenient of access as regards the public at large ; prospect of increased convenience, 2 935 _2 939- 2 970- 2983-3000. 3015 The land at the Muse urn consists of twelve acres, which will all be required for the Department of Science and. Art, 2940-2947. 2968 Government acquired the land in 1854, aac ' P a '^ 5.000/. an acre for it, 2948-2950. 3022 Particulars relative to the land at Kensington belonging to the Commissioners of 1851 ; way in which appropriated, 2951-2967. 3016-3021. Great value of the circulating system of the Kensington Museum, 2970-2972: Advantage if objects could be lent out of the British Museum to local collections, 2972 Opening of the Kensington Museum on certain evenings; considerable expense thereby, 2994-2997 Advantage of the purer atmosphere at Kensington than at the British Museum, 3005, 3006 Instances of, the necessity of putting pictures, &c under glass when publicly exhibited, 3007 — —Extent' and cost of the library at the Kensington Museum, 3013, 3014. College of Surgeons. Non-admission of the general public to the lectures at the College of Surgeons, Owen 709, 710 Great expense in the transfer of the Hunterian Museum to the present museum of the College of Surgeons, Sir B. Brodie 1373, 1374 Extent of increase found necessary for the museum of the college, it). 1390-1393 Mode of administration of the museum, ib. 1419, 1420. Colour of Walls. Importance of the question of the colour of the walls; witness's advice upon this subject has nut been followed, Westmacott 3°7°-3°73- Concentration of Collections. Circumstance of collections of different kinds not being concentrated by any foreign nation in 01. e building, Panizzi- 140, 141- Views- of Count Laborde in disapproval of the principle of concentration of collections, as at the British Museum, ib. 141. 3522 Opinion as to the advancement of science and art by a separation of the collections; confusion and bewilderment at present, ib. 332. 337-341 Absence of disadvantage in the concentration of the collections if there were room enough for the development of each, Owen 643-650. Evidence strongly in favour of the present scheme of concentration, Gray 773; Mashelyne 921-929. 952-977; Sir R. I. Murchison 1243-1250. 1283-1306; Sir B. Brodie 1351 etseq.; Bell 1443 — -Opinion of Professor von Huchstetter of Vienna as to the expediency of a concentration of collections, Maskelyne 929 Feeling of foreign scientific men that the collections should not be separated, Gould 1050 Feeling both of the lower and middle classes and of the scientific woild in favour of the present concentration at Bloomsbury, Sir R. I. Murchison 1245-1249. Communication from M. de Verneuil in strong approval of the system of concentration at the British Museum, and offering suggestions relative to the method of exhibition, Sir R I Murchison 1284 Witness entirely concurs in the sentiments of M. de Verneuil, ib. 1298 Witness does not much like- the dividing the collections, Smirke 2 With reference to the opinion of M. de Verneuil in favour of the present concentration of collections, witness cites the opinions of several other foreigners, eminent as natural- ists, &c, who are all opposed, to concentration, and in favour of the removal of. the natural history collections, Panizzi 3533-3524. 3574. See also Gifts and Bequests. -Natural History Collection. Organization and Administration. Parliamentary Grants. Plans. Conchology. Approval of the extent and mode of exhibition of shells, Gray 827-829. Consuls. Importance of encouraging consuls in making collections of ancient remains, Newton 3276, 3277. 3293-3296. Cost of Land and Buildings. Keference to witness's estimate of 800,000 I, as the cost of the required land and buildings, of which 240,000 I. would be for the site ; about 500,000 1. would be wanted in the first four years, Panizzi 113. 117-130. 187. 199-201. 364- 067 Very much less cost of removal to Kensington, and of a new natural history there, than of the enlargement necessary at Bloomsbury if the collection be retained, ib. 244, '245. 249-262. 359. 369, 370. Means for obtaining the necessary enlargement of the present building at a less expense than would be required for a new museum at Kensington, Sir B. I. Murchison 1250. 1292-1297 ; Sir B. Brodie 1361-1375- 1385,1386 Expediency of at once purchasing the required site, rather than by degrees, Sir B. Brodie 1410, 1411. 540-1. A 4 Estimate COS D R A Report, 1 860 — continued. Cost of Zand and Buildings — continued. Estimate of 65,000 I. as the cost of the required ground, and of 145,000 I. as the cost of the building, according to the plan proposed by witness, Oldfield 2029-2033 Adequacy of 250,000 /. to cover the entire cost of the plan, ib. 2099-2101. Estimate of the site to be procured respectively on the north, east, and west of the Museum ; total of five and a half acres, and total cost of 240,000 /., Smirhe 2313-2339.. 2406, 2407 Economy of galleries between the Museum and the front in Charlotte- street, ib. 2412 Consideration of the cost respectively of an additional site and build- ing adjoining the Museum, and of a new site and building at Kensington, and certain other places, ib. 2413-2475, Estimate by Mr. Oldfield of the approximate expense of his plan; total of 235,720/. for land and buildings, App.p. 255, 256. Remarks by the Committee relative to the cost of sites for a new natural history museum, respectively at Kensington, Victoria-street, and Burlington House, Rep. p. v Reference to the estimate of 240,000 I. for about five and a half acres of land adjoin- ing the Museum on the north, east, and west, ib. Advantage in at once purchasing this ]and,ib.p. xi. Question of cost adverted to with reference to the large additional accommodation required for the antiquities, Rep. p. xii Estimate that the cost of two acres of site adjoining the Museum, together with the requisite buildings and alterations, would not exceed 300,000 /., ib, p. xiii. Reference to the estimate of 620,000/. as the cost of laud and buildings if a natural history museum be formed at Kensington, Rep- p. xiii. See also Kensington. Natural History Collection. D. Days of Opening. Disapproval of opening the natural history collection and the antiquities on alternate days ; approval of the present practice of opening for three days in the week, Panizzi 3601-3607. Deterioration by Exposure. Considerable deterioration of specimens of birds, &c, by exposure to the dust and light, Gray 793-795. 799, 800; Gould 1021-1025; Bell 1464, 1465 Advantage in withdrawing deteriorated specimens from exhibition, and keeping them in drawers, Gray 809. Drawings and Prints. Additional space required and suggested for the prints and draw- ings, Panizzi 35-37 ; Carpenter 2106-2120; Smirke 2355-2361 Witness does not see much reason why the drawings should be retained, but the engravings should be re- tained, Panizzi 313-315. 3680, 3681 It is not essential that the collection of engravings should remain close to the antiquities, Hawkins 1814, 1815. Witness does not see any great objection to the separation of the drawings from the prints, but is at the same time reluctant that the former should be removed, Carpenter 2121-2127 Facility at the Museum to students for copying the drawings; number who attend for that purpose, ib. 2128-2137 Small library attached to the department of prints and drawings, ^.2138,2139 — —Exhibition of prints and drawings in the King's Library, ib. 2140. Approval of original drawings, but not of illustrated manuscripts, being removed to the National Gallery, Layard 2558-2560 Collection of drawings already" in the possession of the National Gallery, Sir C. Eastlake 2630-2634 Approval of the drawings and engravings in the British Museum being removed, to the national collection of pictures, that is, if' improved accommodation be provided for the latter, ib. 2635-2646. 2657. 2671. 2679,2680 Objection to illuminated manuscripts being transferred,^. 2641-2644. 2647- 2651 Limit to be placed on the exhibition of the prints and drawings, ib. 2666-2669. Disapproval of the early or mediaeval engravings or illuminated manuscripts being removed from the British Museum, W ay 2727-2731 -Original drawings might be removed, but it is haidly desirable to separate the prints from the library, Newton 3266. Expediency of the drawings of the great masters being under the same roof as the national collection of pictures, Rep. p. vi, vii Respects in which the prints siand in a different position from the drawings in regard to removal to the, national gallery of pictures, ib. p. vii. Total of about 8,ooo feet of floor space required for the department of drawings and prints; less space required if the former be removed to the National Gallery, Rep. p. x Suggested acquisition of additional ground on the north side of trie Museum, whereby the prints and drawings, &c, may be provided for, ib. p. xii. Duplicates. D V f EI H Report, i860 — continued. Duplicates. Explanation that there are no duplicates in the ornithological department, Panizzi 227, 228. 402 Statement to the effect that there are not many duplicate or superfluous articles in any department of the Musc-urn which could without disadvan- tage be parted with, ib. 396-402 Comparatively few duplicates of printed books; explanation hereon that different editions of the same book are not duplicates, and should be retained, ib. 402-404. 407-419. Few, if any, duplicates in witness's department which he could afford to part with, Owen 628-630 Care taken by witness not to possess many duplicates, Gray 790 Slight use of any duplicates in the mineralogical department in regard to the furnishing of a circulating museum, Maskelyne 899. Statement as to the expediency of the trustees being empowered to dispose, gratui- tously, of obsolefe duplicates, of which there have been many in the Museum at different times, Bell 1479-1491. E. East India Company. Receipt of some natural history collections from the East India Company; how arranged, Panizzi 192, 193. Eastlake, Sir Charles. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Director of the National Gallery, 2629 Collection of drawings in the possession of the gallery, 2630-2634 Approval of the drawings and engravings in the British Museum being removed to the national collection of pictures, that is, if improved accommodation be provided for the latter, 2635-2646. 2657. 2670, 2671. 2679, 2680 Objection to illuminated manuscripts being transferred, 2641-2644. 2647-2651. Doubt as to the expediency of placing all works of art in the same building, or of comprising sculptures and pictures in the British Museum, 2651-2653. 2672-2678 There is some plan for a moderate extension of the National Gallery, 2654-2656— ■ Improved administraiion of the gallery since it has been placed under one head, and the number of trustees reduced, 2658-2665 Limit to be placed upon any exhibition of the prints and drawings, 2666-2669. Egyptian Sculptures. Unsuitableness of the Egyptian gallery, as originally built by Sir Robert Smirke, for the Greek and Roman sculptures, Hawkins 1 739-1 741 ; Oldfield 1918— 1920; Layaid, 2566, 2567;' Westmacott 3060-3065 Cost of the removal of "the Egyptian collection advened to; explanation hereon as to the great expense involved in a contemplated removal of the head of Thothmes III., Oldfield 1938-1941 Plan of gallery and mode of arrangement proposer) for the Egyptian collection, Oldfield 2024. 2045-2051, and App, p, 245, 246-; The Egyptian gallery was not originally intended for the Greek and Roman sculptures, Smirke 2285-2287 Witness does not find any particular fault with the arrangement of the Egyptian sculptures, Newton 3130. See also A rrangement. Sculptures. Elrin Marbles. Injurious effect of some differences about the arrangements of the Elgin room, Hawkins 1630-1632. 1841-1845. 1848-1850 Inadequate accommodation and defective arrangement in the Elgin gallery, Oldfield 1921-1923. 1944-1948; Newton 3130 Arrangement formerly of the Elgin marbles by Sir Richard Westmacott, Old- field 1942, 1943 Frequent and objectionable moving of the Elgin marbles, Layaid 2568.2610,2611 — —The Parthenon works should be kept by themselves, Westmacott 3<>97>3098. See also Arrangement. Sculptures. Engravings, See Drawings and Prints, Enlargement of Museum. See Cost of Land and Buildings' Increase of Accommodation. Kensington. Natural History Collection. Plans. Sculptures. Entrances. There should be three distinct entrances if the collections be trisected, Mas- kelyne 995, 996- Present mode of entrance to the natural history collection, ib, 996 Advantage if there were separate entrances to the departments of natural history and antiquities, Smirke 2362-2367. Estimates. Particulars relative to the attendance of members of Government, as trus- tees, at the meetings of the Board, and part taken by them in moving the estimates ; question as to the effect on this score of a separation of the collections, Panizzi 346- 553 Practice as to the preparation of the estimates, ib. 351. Ethnographical Collection. Grounds for approving of a removal of the ethnographical col- lection, Panizzi 268-276. 320,321; Hawkins 1577-1584; Lay 'ard 2557 ; Newton 3265 Witness's plan does not provide for the ethnographical collection, which it is pro- posed to withdraw, Oldfield 2097 . 2102, 2103. 540— I. B Concuixei.ee ETH F R A Report. 1 860 — continued. Ethnographical Collection— continued. Concurrence of evidence in favour of removing these collections, Rep. p. vii Pro- bability of a more suitable receptacle being found elsewhere, i b. Estimated require- ment of a space of 10,000 feet if the collection be not removed, ib, p. xi. Exchange of Specimens. Advantage of witness's power of exchanging duplicates; how this privilege was accorded to him, Maskelyne 900 Misconception on the part of Professor Maskelyne as to his having any special authority in regard to exchanges, Panizzi 3608. Exhibition. Evidence in favour of the principle of exhibiting not only specimens or types, but varieties of species, completeness being the leading end and aim of the Museum, Panizzi 54. 58-74. 479-482 ; Owen 523-532. 622-624. 628-630. 638-640. Evidence in favour of the principle of exhibiting selected specimens or types, rather than of exhibiting every species in natural history ; how the former should be carried our, Gray 757-768. 798-803. 1193; Gould 1016. 1033-1036. 1044-1046; Huxley 1079- 1098. 1104. 1164-1167. 1189-1191 ; Sir R. I. Murchison 1242. 1252-1255. 1287-1293. 1322; Sir B. Brodie 1379-1384. 1406-1408; Bell 1444-1456. 1464, 1465; Sclater 2769-2771. 2780-2793. 2808 et seq. 2856-2863 Greater difficulty, year by year, in adding new species or specimens, Gray 770, 771. 817-819 Advantage in keeping a large number of unstuffed ornithological specimens in drawers or boxes not publicly ex- hibited, Gray 810-812. 815. 820-822. 826; Gould 1016-1025. 1033-1036 Evils of the system of exhibiting every species or variety of species ; Waterhouse 837-839. 842 ; Huxley 1091-1096; Grayiiys Large sense in which witness uses the word "typical," Huxley 1082-1084. 1189-1191 ; Sir R. I. Murchison 1253. Suggested trial of the typical system of arrangement in the ornithological depart- ment, Huxley 1104 Witness looks upon the Museum as a consulting dictionary or encyclopaedia of literature, science, and art, Sir R. I. Murchison 1261. 1342 Expe- diency of objects intended only for students in science being placed in cases in galleries or in drawers, to be exhibited when asked for, ib. 1287-1289. 1319. 1324-1341 A space twice as large as that proposed by Professor Owen would be required for the exhi- bition of species in detail, Bell 1464 Approval of an exhibition of families of birds and mammalia in cross cases, as at Leyden, Sclater 2788-2793. Witness further advocates the principle of exhibition in detail rather than of a typical exhibition, and objects to keeping specimens in drawers, to be exhibited when asked for, Panizzi 3531 et seq. Consideration of, and objection to, the extended method of arrangement proposed by Professor Owen, Rep. p. ix Large space required, and great expense, in carrying out the extended arrangement suggested by Professor Owen, ib. Approval rather of the proposed exhibition of the collections .upon the principle of arrangement technically described as typical, ib. See also Arrangement. British Association. Duplicates. Galleries. M%ne-~ ralogical Collection. Ornithological Collection. Sculptures. F. Fishes. Nature of the present and proposed arrangements in regard to the class of fishes ; considerable enlargement necessary, Owen 624. 2490. Foreign Collections. Doubt as to there being any advantage in officers of the Museum examining periodically the system of arrangement, &c. in foreign museums, Panizzi 455- 457 Adequate means at present for ascertaining when valuable objects are for sale abroad, ib. 458. Usefulness in the heads of departments visiting and reporting upon foreign collections and museums, Owen 559-561 ; Maskelyne 932-934 ; Sir R. I. Murchison 1310, 1311 ; Hawkins 1662-1666; Newton 3271. 3278,3279 Some useful knowledge might be obtained if the keepers were to travel for the purpose; but it is hardly worth while to make special provision hereon, Sir B. Brodie 1431, 1432. Witness has visited the principal foreign museums with a view to the adoption of im- proved arrangements at home, Oldfield 1904-1910 Reference to a report made by witness upon the museums of Italy as visited by him in 1848, at the instance of the Trustees of the British Museum, Newton 3267-3270. Fossils. See Geological Department. Mineralogical Collection. Fragments of Sculptures. Importance of a room in which to place broken fragments of sculptures, Panizzi 194. GAL GRA Eeport, i860 — continued. G. Galleries. Consideration of the question of raising the height of some of the the rooms in the Natural History Department, and of erecting galleries in which to exhibit the objects less interesting to the general public; objections to this experiment, Panizzi ,50-58. 494 Objection to the erection of new rooms with galleries upon the plan of the Col- lege of Surgeons, for the Natural History Department; advantage, however, of galleries, if the present exigencies of space be not remedied, Owen 501-505. 508. 592, 593. 598- 611 In a building of two storeys, the addition of galleries should be provided for, ib. 735-737- Valuable additional space, if galleries were erected over the cases in the bird room, &c, Gray 754, 755. 769. 808. 813. 1193 Suggestions as to the character of the addi- tional rooms and galleries desirable to be built, ib. 769. 804-808- Advantage of gal- leries, as at the College of Surgeons, for the accumulation of specimens for the use of the scientific world, Sir B. Brodie 1402-1408 Means of providing additional accom- modation by the erection of galleries in certain rooms ; lighting of these rooms adverted to with reference to the proper size for the galleries, Srnirke 2391-2402. iSee also Plans. Gas Light. See Lighting. Gems. Non-exhibition of the gems on account of the want of space, Panizzi 21. Geological Department. Want of space equally in the department of geology as of zoology ; data for the large increase proposed, Owen^gQ^oo. 624. 739 Calculation that a total area of 15,737 superficial feet is required for the Geological Department, the present area being only 6,678 feet; details hereon, Waterhouse 834-836. 852-856. 878-883, 887. Eeference to the estimate of the keeper of the Geological Department as to the increased space to be required for the next twenty years, Rep. p. x Refusal of the sanction of the Treasury to certain Hlterations, in consequence of impending changes, ib. Sugges- tion by which the department of Geology may, indirectly, be provided for, ib. p. xii. See also Mineralogical Collection. Natural History Collection. Geological Museum. See Museum of Practical Geology. Gifts and Bequests. Necessary refusal of presents because of want of accommodation, Panizzi 39. 59 Effect of the system of concentration to induce gifts and bequests which would not otherwise be made; illustration in the case of witness, Sir R. I. Mur- chison 1302-1306. Gould, John. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Has devoted all his life to the study of orni- thology, 1004-1006 Is for several reasons decidedly opposed to the removal of the natural history collections from the British Museum, 1007-1015.1039-1050 Consi- ders that a well arranged typical collection of ornithology, fully illustrated, is better than an exhibition of every species and variety of species, 1016. 1033-1036. 1044-1046 There should be a collection in drawers of every species, not exhibited, which should be accessible to ornithologists; these specimens should not be stuffed, 1016-1025. 1033- 1036. 1051-1063. Great injury resulting from exposure to light; advantage hereon of keeping specimens in drawers, 1021-1025 Means in the present space of exhibiting instructively the ornithological collection, 1026-1032 Attractiveness of witness's collection of hum- ming birds when at the Zoological Gardens; greater attraction if at the British Museum, 1037-1043. Gray, Dr. John Edivard. (Analysis of his Evidence.)— Keeper of the Zoological Collec- tion; has been at the Museum since 1824; 752, 753 Valuable additional space if galleries were erected over the cases in the bird-room, &c, 754, 755. 769. 808. 813 Enormous space to be required if all the specimens in the zoological collection are to be exhibited, 756. 807 Advantage of a selected exhibition of the finer specimens rather than of a'n exhibition of the different varieties of species, as in the case of insects and birds, 757-768. 798-803 For the last two or three years witness has felt and said that it was not desirable to exhibit so much, 768. Adequate space to be obtained for many years to come by a moderate extension of the present building; that is, if the restricted system of exhibition be adopted, 769-772. 816- 819 Want of room for the osteological collection, 769. 803. 812 Suggestions as to the character of the additional rooms and galleries desirable to be built, 769. 804-808 Evidence in disapproval of the proposed removal of the natural history collection to Kensington, 773-7% 79 6 > 797- 8 3°- 8 3 2 - Advantage in the union of the several collections in the same building, 773 Care taken by witness not to possess many duplicates, 790— —Explanation as to witness 540— I. c having io GRA HAW Report, 1800 — continued. Gray, Dr. John Edward. (Analysis of his Evidence) — continued. having suggested that some deteriorated specimens might go to furnish small museums for the working classes, 790, 791. 793 Advantage in lectures being given by pro- fessed lecturers rather than by -the curators of the Museum, 792. Considerable deterioration of specimens by exposure to the dust and light, 793-^95- 799, 800 Suggestion as to the erection of new studies on a certain site, 804-806. 813 Advantage in withdtawing deteriorated specimens from exhibition and keeping them in drawers, 809 Evil effect of the question of separation upon the practice of arrangement, ib. Large number of urrstuflfed specimens kept in drawers or boxes, 'and not publicly exhibited ; advantage thereof, 810-812. 815. 820-822. 826 Absence of disadvantage in there being no living zoological specimens in the Museum, 82.3-825— Approval of the extent and mode of exhibition of shells, 827-829. [Second Examination.] — Delivers in a written statement explanatory-of'his views upon the subject of the organization of the institution, the arrangement of the collections, and the question of separation, &c, 1192, 1193 Inaccuracy of some statements by Pro- fessor Owen as to the want of certain specimens in the zoological department, 1194- 1201 Explanation as t<> the exhibition of several specimens of a certain species of birds, 1202-1206. 1211, 1212 Practice as to. the labels attached to the different specimens, 1207-1210. Graco-Roman Sculptures. Explanation of the term •' Grseco-Romau sculptures," Oldfieid 196c Poimer and present accommodation and arrangement in the case of the Graaco- Roman sculptures; explanations relative to the alterations adopted, and the further alterations required, ib. 1961-1970. 2023; and App. p. 250 Impropriety of the juxta- position of Grseco-Roman and Assyiian remains, Newton 31,30. 'Great Russell Street. Suggestion in witness's repot t of June 1858 as to the. acquisition of a part of Great Russell-street, Panizzi 75-78. Greek Sculptures. Particulars as to the excavations of antiquities at Athens and other parts of Greece of late years, and as to the probable extent to which further excavations may be made, Sir T. Wyse 34 2 3"34 2 7- 343 2 - 3439~344,7 Obstacles to the acquisi- tion by this country of further antiquities from Greece; prohibition by law upon liheir exportation, and growing feeling of Greeks in favour of national or local collections, ib. 3424 et seq. — — Steps taken by witness to impress upon the Greek government the pro- priety of continued excavations, and of the formation of a national museum, ib. 3433. 3444. See also Arrangement. Sculptures. H. Halicarnassian Marbles. See Budrum and Cnidus Marbles. Hawkins, Edward. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Has for about thirty-five years 'been keeper of the Department of Antiquities, 1492, 1493 Several subdivisions of witness's- department, and officers in charge of each, 1494-1501 'Difficulty in forming any estimate of the future increase of antiquities,, 1502,1503 Evidence as to the insuf- ficiency of the present space and the unsuitable ness of the present arrangements in the Antiquities Department, 1504 et seq. 1713-1741 The sculptures should 'be all on the ground-floor, and the galleries should succeed one another in chronological order, and be arranged in parallel lines, 1528-1535. The extension for sculptures, &c. should be on the west s-ide of the Museum, towards Charlotte-street, 1536-1540. 1688-1690, 1861-1863 Expediency of sky-lights for all the sculptures; examination hereon as to the sufficiency or otherwise of proper side- lights, 1541, 1542. 1574. 1727-1735. 1775-1798 Total of 75,000 square feet now occupied by the antiquities ; total of 122,000 estimated to be required, exclusive of the basement rooms, 1548-1561. 1571-1575- 1713-1726. 1768-1774. 1799 Doubt as to there being any objects in the South Kensington Museum which should be in the British Museum, 1562-1570. Objection to a temoval of the British and mediaeval collections, 1576 Approval of the ethnographical collection being, for the most part, removed, 1577-1584- "Want of space for an exhibition of coins and medals, 1585-1587 — — The annual grant fori pur- chases for witness's department is now 3,000/., 1588-1590. -1748 Nature of the limit upon witness's power of purchase ; expediency of greater latitude in this respect, 1591-161-2. 1691,1692. 1751-1755- 1816-1840. 1876- 1883— Undue interference of the trustees with witness in the arrangement of the antiquities,; inexpediency thereof, 159.1- 1637. 1693-1712. 1745-1750. 1841-1850 Injurious effect of some differences about the arrangement of the Elgin room, 1630-1632. 1841-1845. 1848-1850. Great improvement if the department of antiquities were administered independently of any other departments by a resident head, and if the trustees acted more as a con- sulting HAW H IX X 11 Report, 1 860 — continued. 1 — ■ — ■ Hawkins, Edward: (Analysis of his Evidence) — continued. smiting bidy; 1638-165Q Improper classification of the officers in the Antiquities Department, 1651-1655 Better education requiivd for the Department of Antiquities than fw any other department, 1653, 1654 Improvement if the heads of depart- ments were always present when their reports were being re, id, 1606-1661. 1763-1767 Advantage, if the keepers were allowed or required to travel and to make reports upon foreign, collections,. 1662-1666. Objections to -a removal of the antiquities from the present central site, 1667, 1668 Question as to'the lighting of the new Assyrian room on the basement floor, and as to the room being used lor other objects thitn sculptures, 1669-1687 Partial lighting of the. hasement rooms by reflectors, 1742 Question of lighting by gas adverted to, 1744 Expediency of proper space for the exhibition of the greater portion of the Halieanassiun marbles, 1756-1761- All the marbles which may be excavated need tfc.it b«. publicly exhibited ; ihey should first be " weeded," 1762. Explanation relative to the department library attached to the collection of antiquities, 1800-1813 It is not essential that the collection of engravings should remain close to the antiquities, 1814, 1815; Probable sufficiency of two additional parallel lines of galleries, with skylights, for the sculptures, &c, 1851-1872 Approval of constant additions to the collection of ancient sculpture,, 1873, 1874 Approval, also, of con- tinuing to collect inscriptions, 1875. 1899-1901 Convenience of the basement floor as a warehouse, 1884-1886 Approval of a large increase of the collection of the Indian antiquities, 1887-1S89 Exceptional use of some casts and models of works of antiquity; this is only allowed for special purposes, 1890-1898. Hayes, Benjamin. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Carpenter residing in Kensington, 3446, 3447 Evidence as to the interest taken by the working classes in natural history collections, and a* to the advantage to the people of Kensington, Chelsea, &c. if there were a museum of natural history at South Kensington, 3448 et seq. Approval of a removal to Kensington of the collection of natunl history in the British Museum ; question, however, whether such removal would not be inconvenient to those living in the central and eastern districts of the metropolis, 3464 et seq. Heads of Departments. Advantage if theTieads of departments had seats and voices at the board of trustees, and if the system of written reports were abolished, Owen 670-675. 722-724 Expediency of the heads of the departments being present when any business is being transacted, Maskelyne 941 ; Huxley 1115; Sir R. I. Murchison 1269; Sir B. Brodie 1415-14.17; Hawkins 1656-1661. 1763-1767; Layard 2521-2524 Im- portance of more real influence in the heads of departments ; suggestions hereon, Sir R. I. Murchison 1268, 1269. 1309 Expediency of the heads of the several depart- ments being consulted in regard to any new plans, .Sir B. Brodie 1412-1414; Layard 2538-254 Q - Proimpts communication to the heads of departments of the resolutions of the trustees upon their, reports, Panhzi. 3641 Approval of the present practice whereby the officers are called before the trustees, whenever the latter do not agree with these reports,' ib. 3642-3646. See also Foreign Collections. Lectures. Officers of the Museum. Organization and Administration. Purchases. Height of Rooms. Expediency of the rooms or galleries being of a certain height, and objection theieby to a building of three storeys, Smirke 2271-2284. Herbarium.. See Botanical Collection. Hewlett The Rev. Br. (Analysis of his Evidence.)— Resides in the Tower Hamlets ; is an Independent minister, 2141, 2142 Evidence as to the great interest taken by the working classes in the East of London in different branches of natural history, and as to the advantage to them in the natural history collection being at Bloomsbury instead of at Kensington, 2143 et seq. Great want of a local museum and library for the people of the Tower Hamlets, &c. ; advantage hereon if the ethnographical collection in the British Museum, and any superfluous specimens there, were available for such local museum, 2158-2170. 2 181-21 90. 2208-2.214. Houses of Officers. Provision of houses for two of -the heads of departments in addition to witness ; approval thereof, Panizzi 463-468 Necessity of providing residences at a new museum ; probable cost, thereof, ib. 468,. 469 The present houses at the British Museum cost about §,QoaL each, ib., 469. Hwlev Professor Thomas Henry. (Analysis of hi& Evidence.)— Professor of Natural History and Curator of the Paleontological Collection at the Museum of Practical Geology, 1064 Signed two memorials in favour of non-separation of the collections of the British Museum; explains the circumstances under which he did so, 1065-1072 54 o—L ca 'Since 12 HUX INC Report, i860 — continued. Huxley, Professor Thomas Henry. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continue d. Since signing the second memorial has reconsidered the question as to an abolition of the trustees, and is now opposed to such abolition, 1073. Paramount importance of the question of re-organization, 1074-1078— Argument strongly in favour of the principle of a typical arrangement of birds, &c. ; large sense in which witness uses the word "typical," 1079-1098. 1104. 1164-1167. 1189-1191— — Proposed arrangement of the cases and proposed system of galleries in connexion with a typical exhibition of birds, 1084. 1164-1177 Evils of the system of exhibiting every species, or variety of species, 1091-1096 Very imperfect arrangements proposed in cer- tain plans for a large increase of space ; absence of necessity for such increase, 1 092-a 1 03. Inadequacy of the estimate of 20,000 I. as the cost of a natural history library, 1096. 1187, 1188 Opinion that the provision of six such rooms as the ornithological room, or an additional site of two and a half acres, would be ample for the Natural History Depart- ment for the next fifty years, 1099-1101 Very large area of the ornithological room, 1101-1103 Approval of there being fancy cases of birds scattered throughout the bird- room, 1105. There should be- three divisions of the Museum, each under a separate head, who should be directly responsible to the governing body, 1106-1110 The functions of the trustees should be for the most part consultative, 1109, 11 10 Extent of witness's power in regard 10 purchases; the heads at the British Museum should have at least a similar power, 1111-1116— —System of lectures, and of admission thereto, at the Geolo- gical Museum, 1117-1120 Suggestions relative to lectures at the British Museum; strong objection to the curators being obliged to lecture, 1121-1123. 1162, 1163. Further evidence bearing upon the question of a removal of the natural history col- lection ; greater disadvantage in removing it than in keeping it where it is under an improved organization, 1124-1157 Limited character of the contents of the Museum of Practical Geology, 1138-1141. 1178-1186 Approval of the distinct chaiacter of the Geological Museum ; if, however, it had from the first been in conjunction with the British Museum, it would be better not to remove it, 1142-1149 Conduct of the Swiney lectures advened to, 1158-1161 Doubt as to the expediency of three collec- tions of majolicas in different museums; limited and useful character of the collection in Jermyn-street, 1178-1186. 1. Increase of Accommodation. Demands have been made by almost all the departments for increased space, Panizzi 3-7 Reference to reports by witness in November 1857, and July 1858, relative to the means for an increase of accommodation, ib. Q, 10 Expe- diency in carrying out extensions, of reference being had to the life of the nation and not merely to the life of the present generation, and of ample space being provided for the Library and the Natural History Department as well as for antiquities, ib. 109-139 — — Great difficulty in providing for adequate extension of space so long as the different col- lections are concentrated, ib. 142-144 Necessity sooner or later of buying more land, even if the collections be separated, ib. 196-198 Concurrent opinion of the heads of departments that more space is wanted, and that there is no waste of space, ib. 470-477. 494 The present extent of the Museum could not have been foreseen at the first by the trustees, ib. 492. Consideration of the means of enlargement of the present building, so as to provide for the extension of the several collections ; sufficiency for many years to come of the avail- able space in the environs of the present building, if the typical system of exhibition be followed, Gray 769-772. 816-819; Sir R. I. MurcMson 1242. 1250-1252. 1292-1301. 1312-1318. 1322; Sir B. Brodie 1363. 1385-1411 ; Bell 1457-1464 Valuable space to be afforded for fossils, &c, if certain galleries be carried out as suggested by witness, Waterhouse 852-856. 887 Limit to be placed upon the contents of the Museum ; its scope should be to represent the intelligence of the nation, Maskelyne 966-976 Very imperfect arrangements proposed in certain plans for a large increase of space ; absence of necessity for such increase, Huxley 1092-1103 Difficulty in forming any estimate of the future increase of antiquities, Hawkins 1502, 1503 Difficulty in forming- an estimate of the period for which the extension proposed by witness would suffice, Oldfeld 2034-2036 — —Facility for future extension, if witness's plan be adopted, ib. 2034, 2035. 2077-2096 Total amount of additional space comprised in witness's plan, ib. 2038. 2072-2076. 2080-2087. 2104. Means of extending the plan proposed by witness in 1857, Smirke 2265-2269 Opinion that the five and a half acres obtainable at Bloomsbury would provide ample space for the next fifty years, ib. 2390. 2406-241 1 The large increase of area proposed by witness has reference to future wants over a lengthened period, and would not involve any very large immediate expense on the score of staff, &c, Owen 2499-2501 Con- sideiable additional space likely to be required for sculptures, vases, and terra cottas, Newton 3149. Total INC KRA Report i860 — continued. 13 Increase of Accommodation — continued. Total of 81,268 superficial feet estimated to be required for the department of JNatural History, of Antiquities, &c, Rep. p. ix-xi Suggestions as to the additional space or accommodation desirable for the accommodation of the respective departments, to. XI-X1U. See also < Antiquities. Arrangement. Cost of Land and Buildings. Drawings and Prints. Exhibition, System of. Geological Department. " Insect Room. Kensington. Mammalia. Mineralogical Department. Natural. History Collection. Plans. Reptiles. Sculptures. Staircase. Storeys. Studies. Westminster. Zoological Collection. Indian Antiquities. Approval of a large increase of the collection of Indian antiquities, " Hawkins 1887-1889. ^ Inscriptions. Approval of coniinuing to collect inscriptions, Hawkins 1785. 1899-1901 • Value of the Phoenician inscriptions in the Museum; they should all be kept together, 0/c//ie« 1980-1982 — -Expediency of a distinct place for the very valuable collection ol Greek inscriptions, Newton 3130. 3299-3301 Valuable collection of inscriptions obtained by witness for the Museum, ib. 3275. 3298. Insect Room. The insect room is the worst room in the building, Panizzi 41 Large demand for additional space for the exhibition of insects, Owen 2490. J. Jardin des Pla?jtes. See Museum d'Histoire Naturelle. K. Keepers. See Heads of Departments. Kensington. Obstacle, iii time, to an indefinite extension of space for a museum as well at Kensington as at Bloomsbury, Maskelyne 977 Doubt as to the extent of site to be required for a new Natural History Museum at Kensington; it depends upon the system of arrangements, Sir R. I. Murchisou 1320-1323 Considerable time and expense in going from the east end to Kensington, Hewlett 2171-2173. 2195-2198 — -Understanding that at Kensington or Brompton the land may be had for 5,000/. or 6,000/. an acre, Smirke 2425-2429. 2437-2442. 2451-2453 Particulars ol' the land at Kensington belonging to the Commissioners of 1851 ; way in which appropriated, Cole 2951-2967. 3016-3021. Out of a total of about eighty-six acres, purchased at Kensington by the Commissioners for the Exhibition of 1851, twelve acres have been permanently transferred to Govern- ment for the Science and Art Department, Bowring 3315, 3316 There are between fourteen and fifteen acres in the main square, which are still unappropriated ; particulars hereon relative to the appropriation of the remainder, ib. 3316-3321 Inaccuracy of a statement in a certain Parliamentary Paper wherein the cost of the land is put at 5,000 /. an acre ; estimate that the unappropriated land is worth at least 20,000 /. an acre, ib. 3322-3330. 3346-3352. 3409-3415 The Commissioners would be disposed to sell the unappropriated land, if for a public object, at 10,000 /. an acre; for about a quarter of an acre of it, 5,000 /. per acre would be taken, ib. 3331-3334. 3363. Explanation relative to the original partnership of Government and the Commissioners in the land, and the dissolution of such partnership by the latter paying off their debt to -the former, partly in money and partly in the twelve acres of land for the Science and Art Department which was taken at 5,000/. an acre, much below its value ; the remainder of the land belongs entirely to the Commissioners, and is worth very much more than it cost, Bowring 3335-3362. 3405-3420 Evidence as to accessibility to the general public, and more especially to the lower classes, of a museum on the Kensington estate, as shown by the large number of visitors to the South Kensington Museum, ib. 3364- 3405- Plan of the estates purchased at Kensington by the Commissioners of 1851, App.p. 243. See also Antiquities. Atmosphere. Cost of Land and Buildings. Natural History Collection. South Kensington Museum. Working Classes. Kew Gardens. Satisfactory management of the botanical institution at Kew ; and liberality of Parliament in meeting the requirements of the director of that establishment, Owen 676. 723. 749 Complete success of Kew adverted to, Maskelyne 954, 955. See also Botanical Collection. Krantz Collection of Minerals. Explanation as to the non-purchase of the Krantz collection of minerals, Maskelyne 897, 898. 54O— L c 3 Labels. 14 LAB LUV Report, 1S60 — continued. L. Labels. Practice as to the labels attached lo the different specimens of birds &c., GraV 1207-1210. Layard, Austin Henry. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Has devoted considerable atten- tion to the condition of the British Museum; has contributed largely to the collec- tions, 2505-2507 Considers that the system of administration of the Museum is essentially wrong, and that the collections of art should be under a perfectly distinct direction, and under one he;id, 2508-2520.2576-2583 As to there being different localities for the science and art collections, witness has not studied this question, but the buildings should be distinct, 2509-2513. 2583. 2606-2608.. Exceedingly defective arrangement of che sculptures in the Lycian and other rooms, 2514. 2592, 2593 Great importance of a chronological arrangement; suggestions as to the mode in which this should be' carried out, 2514, 2525 et seq. 2572, 2573. 2586- 2591. 2693, 2694 If l here were a head for each. department, the Trustees should not take part in the actual administration; imponance of separate head's, 2515-2520. 2579, 2580 Advantage if the curators, or heads of departments, were always present when business was being transacted, 2521-2524. Exceedingly defective character of the present structure for the exhibition of sculptures} 2527, 2528. 2565-2569 Expediency of the heads of the several departments being consulted in regard to any new pi ms, 2538-2540 Want of proper space and want of arrangement for the Assyrian sculptures; witness was not consulted in the matter, 254 h 2 54 2 - 2595-259 8 - 2626. Evidence in disapproval of a removal of the mediaeval collection from the British Museum to the Kensington Museum ; there can be no proper line of distinction between mediaeval art and ancient or modern art, 2544-2552. 2612-2614 Line of distinction between the Kensington and British Museums; inexpediency of any rivalry between them, 2551-2556 Reference to a suggestion by witness that the British Museum should be limited entirely to art, and that an additional storey should be built for pictures; opinion of Sir Charles Barry hereon, 2551. 2627, 2628. Approval of a removal of the ethnographical collection, 2557 Approval of original drawings, but not of illuminated manuscripts, being removed to the National Gallery, 2558-2560 Frequent and objectionable moving of the Elgin Marbles, 2568. 2610, 2611 All the art collections should be in the same locality, 2583 Approval of the receipt or purchase of all valuable specimens; superfluous objects or duplicates might be transferred to local museums, 2599-2603. Further evidence strongly in favour of the art collections beinj; kept entirely distinct, and being placed under one permanent head, 2604, U605, 2615-2622, 2626 Expe- diency of properly limiting the duties of trustees who represent donors of bequests to the Museum, 2625 Approval of the plan suggested by Mr. Oldfield ; it does not, however, go far enough, and any patching up for a period is very expensive and unwise, 2626. Lectures. Evidence in disapproval of lectures in the Museum, whether given by officers of the institution or by persons unconnected with it, Panizzi 371-395 ; Sir B. Brodie 1426-1430 Evidence in favour of a system of lectures on natural history to be given at the Museum by the heads of the different departments ;, suggestions as to the character of the lectures, the mode of admission, &c, Owen 680-688. 709-721. 741— 746 Obstacle to the delivery of lectures by persons unconnected with the Museum, 16.686-691. 742 Advantage in lectures being given, by professed lecturers, rather than by the curators of the Museum, Gray 792. Grounds for objecting to lectures being given in the. Museum by the keepers, Mas- kelyne 946-951 ; Huxley 1162, 1163; Sir R. I. Murcldson 1256-1259 Advantage in the keepers, having opportunities for lecturing, but not in the Museum, Maskelyne 950, 951 — — Doubt as to the advantage of a system of lectures by non-officials, Sir R. I. Murchison 1260 Popularity of lectures among the middle and lower classes at the east end of London, Hewlett 2181-2189 Objections to lectures at the British Museum, except on a limited scale; facilities hereon at the South Kensington Museum, Newton 3280-3291. The Committee question whether the conversion. of the Museum into an educational establishment would not be a departure from the principle on which it rests, Rep. p. xiv Objection to tlie lectures, whether compulsory or voluntary, to be given by the officers of the Museum, ih. Difficulties in the case of lectures to be given by persons not connected' witii the Museum, ib: Levant, The. The probability of making further discoveries of antiquities in the Levant was the main reason' why witness went thither in the Consular iiervice; valuable collec- tions which lie has been instrumental in obtaining, Newton 3272-3277. 3292-3298. i Library. L LiB MAM i£ Rf porf, 1 860 — continued. Library. Adequate space for many years to come for printed books, PanizzL8. 153, 154. It was calculated that the new library would be adequate for forty years from the 'time it was built, ib. 8. 153, 154 Objection to any space provided for the library eventually being in the meanwhile devoted to other purposes, ib. 131-139 Greater importance of the classical antiquities and the library than of the natural history collec- tions and the library being in'the same building; less importance of the library being close to the mediaeval antiquities, ib. 156, 157. 202, 203. 359-363 Circumstance! of thelibnry having- been looked arpon as the chief department when the Musn m was faunded,,i6. 358. Under theCopyright Act 'a 'copyof each fresh edition should be, and is generally obtained, Panizzi 419 Explanation relative to collections of books of reference for the use of the. officers of the sev< ral departments, ib.. 420-422 iNon-objeution to the extension of galleries to the west on the ground Antiquities. Duplicates. Natural History Collection. Lighting. Importance of skylighis for the sculptures, &c. in the British Museum, Panizzi 182, 183; OJdjidd . 2005-2008 ; Westmaeott 3057-3059. 3099-3104; iV35- Loans. Suggestion that in exceptional cases and under. proper precautions. duplicates of rare books might be lent out of the. Museum, Panizzi 404-406 Advantage if objects could be lent out of the British Museum to local collections, Cole .2972 Inex- pediency of lending unique .or rare specimens from the Museum, Newton 3252. Local Museums. Advantage if branch libraru s and museums were established in different pans of the metropolis, Panizzi 226 Explanation as to witness having suggested tbat some deteriorated specimens might go to furnish small museums for the working classes, Gray 790, 791. 793- Great want of a local museum for the people of the Tower Hamlets, &c. ; advantage hereon if the chronological collections in the British Museum and any superflous specimens there were available for such local museum, Hewlett 2158- 2170. 2181-2190. 2208-22-14. Lycian Room. Want of increased space anil improved arrangement in the Lycian-room, Hawkins 1509-1515; Layard 2514. 2592, 2593 Suggested re-arrangement of the Lycian sculptures if more space be available, Otdjield 1988, 1989 Difference jrjf opinion at the Museum about the Lycian room, Westmaeott 3066-3069. M. Majolicas. Doubt as to the expediency of three collections of majolicas in different museums; limited and useful character of the collection in Jermyn-street, Huxley 1178- 1186. fflammalia. Necessity of a gallery 850 feet long by 50 wide, in order to facilitate the exhibition of existing mammalia and of the skeletons of gigantic animals now extinct, Vwen 533-537. 564. 614-616. 620, 621. 624-627 — - Probability of many large animals ; of an extinct race 'being obtainable for exhibition; it is very desirable to procure them, Waterhouse 841. 857-873 Doubt as to a gallery 850 feet long by 50 wide, being sufficient for witness's department for the next fifty years, ib. 842-844.876, 877 54OT-I. 4 Numerous 16 MAM MED > Report, 1 860 — continued. Mammalia — continued. Numerous animals, many of ihem now extinct, not represented in witness's department, Waterliouse 857-875. Inadequacy even of the large space proposed, if all the varieties of the mammalia are to be exhibited, Huxley 1092 Valuable specimens of marine mammalia already in the Museum, Gray 1193 Want of much more space in the department of palaeon- tology ; means of supplying it, Sir R. I. Murchison 1312-13195 Bell 1459-1468. The transfer of certain galleries from the antiquities to the natural history department would enable only a partial exhibition of the class mammalia, Owen 2492-2498 Defective arrangement in the mammalian galleries, Sclater 2782. Suggestions relative to the provision of a proper gallery for the exhibition of mammalia, Hep. p. ix, x. See also Natural History Collection. Management. See Organization and Administration. Manuscripts. Opinion that for the present there is space enough in the manuscript department, Panizzi 7. Mashelyne, Nevil. (Analysis of his Evidence). — Keeper of the mineral collections at the Museum, 888 Want of a study and laboratory in witness's department, 889, 890 Out of about 50,000 minerals, from 15,000 to 16,000 are exhibited, 891, 892 Cal- culation that the addition of another room, of a certain size, would meet the requirements of the department for the next 20 years ; reference hereon to >he contemplated formation of a crystallographic collection, and a collection of pseudomorphs, 893-896. Explanation as to the non-purchase of the Krantz collection of minerals, 897, 898 Slight use of any duplicates in the mineralogical department, in regard to the fur- nishing of a circulating museum, 899 Advantage of witness's power of exchanging duplicates, 900 Suggestions relative to the lighting of the mineral rooms ; defective lighting at present, 901-907. Explanations in connexion with a plan prepared by witness for an economy and enlargement of the space to be devoted to the natural history collection and other col- lections, so as to obviate the necessity of any removal from the present locality?9o8-gi3, and App. p. 238 Great importance of an adequate provision of studies, 914 Objections to a very extensive exhibition of minerals, &c. ; advantages of ihe svstem of selection of specimens, 915-920.992-994. Evidence in disapproval of a removal from the British Museum of the natural history collection, and in approval of the concentration of the several collections; objections to this view considered and answered, 921-929.952-977 -Excellent mineralogical col- lection at Vienna, 930,931- — Considerable advantage if the officers of the Museum were authorised to travel and examine foreign collections, 932-934 Practice as to the regulation of the estimates in witness's department, 935. Importance of enlarging the power of the keepers in regard to purchases, &c, 936- 940 Expediency of the keepers having the opportunity of urging any point before the trustees directly, 941 Suggested separation of the Museum into three divisions, each to be administered by a separate superintendent and keepers, 943. 978 The trustees should assume more the functions of visitors, under tbe presidency of a hio-h administrative officer to whom the divisional superintendents should be responsible, 943- 945- 978-99 1 - Grounds for objecting to lectures being given in the Museum by the keepers, 946- 951 -Advantage in the keepers having opportunities for lecturing, but not in the Museum, 950, 951 Limit to be placed upon the contents of the Museum ; its scope should be to represent the intelligence of the nation, 966-976- There should be three distinct entrances if the collections be trisected, 995, 996 Mode of entrance to the natural history collection, 997 Number of books attached to witness's department; estimated extent of the new library necessary in the event of removal, 998-1003. Mastodon, The. Irreparable injury to the Mastodon if the natural history collection be removed, Waterhouse 846. Medimval Collection. Consideration of the several arguments for and against a removal to the South Kensington Museum of the mediaeval collection in the British Museum; grounds for concluding that a national depository of mediaeval art should all be in some one place, and that the removal in question is desirable, Panizzi 277-312. 333-336. 3640. 3658-3670. 3695 ; Cole 291 1 et seq. • 2969 et seq. ; Newton 3199 et seq. " ' Line of distinction suggested between Christian and Pagan art, or mediaeval and clas- sical art ; views of Mr. Newton and others in reference to this question, Panizzi 284- 3 11 * 35°"> 357 Great space to be made available by the removal of the mediaeval collection, ib. 322-324- Considerable expenditure in mediaeval antiquities adverted to ; interference thereby with purchases of classical antiquities, ib. 335, 336. 342, 343 The mediaeval collection if removed to the Kensington Museum should'siill remain under the trustees of the British Museum, ib. 454. Objections MED MIN 17 Report, i860 — continued. Medieeval Collection — continued. Objections to a removal of the British and mediaeval collections from the British Museum, Hawkins 1587; Oldfi eld 1997 ; Layard 2544-2552. 2612-2614 It would be extremely difficult, or rather impossible, to separate medieeval art from classic art, or Christian art from Pagan art, Layard 2545-2552. 2612-2614; Way 2688 et seq. Witness considers it of great importance that there should be a perfect archaeological collection in the British Museum, and that a removal of the objects of medieeval art would be extremely undesirable, Way 2684 et seq., 2670, 2671 Suggestions as to several of the objects desirable to be comprised in the mediaeval collection, ib. 2697, 2698. 2701 et seq. Approval of the mediaeval collections in the South Kensington Museum ; line of distinction between this collection and that at the British Museum, £6.2712-2715.2760,2761. How mediaeval collections should be arranged, Cole 2924; Newton 32 1 et seq. Definition of the mediaeval period as being from the year 500 to the year 1500, when the renaissance period begins, Cole 2925-2930. 2979-8982 ; Westmacott 3078-3080. 3105. 3198; Panizzi 3662-3667. 3694. Doubt as to the propriety of a transfer of the medieeval collection, Westmacott 3106- 3 111 Tendency of a passion for mediaeval art to deteriorate pure taste, ib. 3111 Disapproval of collecting in the Museum sculptures of a later date than early in the Roman empiie, i7>. 3111-3122. Evidence in favour of continuing in one gallery mediaeval collections of art and pictures, or, failing such arrangement, of removing the mediaeval collection to the South Ken- sington Museum, Ntwlon 3153 et seq. Probability of increased bequests if there were but one mediaeval collection, ib. 3169-3174 Evidence as to the line of distinc- tion to be drawn between Pagan and Christian art, with reference to the formation of the national mediaeval collection, or museum of Christian art; the period should date from the reign of Constantine the Great, ib. 3199 et seq. Reference to a passage in a letter from witness to Colonel Munro in 1853, m which he upholds the theory of one museum for all antiquities whatsoever; reason for now recommending something much smaller, ib. 3246, 3247 Probability of there being in a mediaeval collection many more objects which would be desirable as works of art, than as works possessing merely a historical interest, ib. 3309-3311. Better collection already at the South Kensington Museum than at the British Mu- seum, Panizzi 3640 Statement to the effect that the works of art in the British Museum should generally terminate with the fifth century, when the mediaeval period begins; exception to this rule, ib. 3658-3693 Approval of a separation of mediaeval and modern art in a national museum, ib. 3691-3693. Suggestions by Mr. Newton, in letter to Mr. Panizzi, dated 18 June i860, relative to a separation between Pagan and Christian art, and the collection of mediaeval art and pictures in one museum, App. p. 241, 242. Conflicting character of the evidence upon the question of the retention or removal of the British and mediaeval collections, Rep. p. vii, viii The Committee conclude that the British Museum is a repository in which objects of historical or archaeological interest ought to find a place, without limiiation to any particular time or country, ib. p. viii Advantage anticipated as regards the department of mediaeval antiquities if proper space were assigned to it, and a fair proportion of the public grant allotted to it, ib. See aLo South Kensington Museum. Mexican Antiquities. Witness does not wish for a retention of the Mexican antiquities, Hawkins 1581-1583. Milttianh. Accessibility respectively of Millbank and of Bloomsbury as the site for a natural history museum, Smirhe 2419-2424. Mineralogical Department. Want of space in the fossil and mineralogical departments adverted to in connexion with the appropriation of space for studies; reason for the postponement of the erection of new studies, Panizzi 42-51 Witness explains that lie is now opposed to the removal of the mineralogical department, Owen 573 Data for witness's calculations as to the increased space required for mineralogy, ib. 739. Out of about £0,000 minerals from 15,000 to 16,000 are exhibited, Maskelyne 891, 802 Calculation that the addition of another room, of a certain size, would meet the requirements of the department for the next twenty years; reference hereon to the con- templated formation of a crystallographic collection, and a collection of pseudomorphs, ib. 8qq-8q6 Advantage in mineials bein a exhibited in table cases on the floors, rather than in cases on the walls, ib. 896 Objection to a very extensive exhibition of mine- rals, &c. ; advantages of the system of selection of specimens, ib. 9i5"9 2 0- 99 2 -994-~ - Practice as to the regulation of the estimates in the department, ib. 935 Number of books attached to the department; estimated extent of the new library necessary in the event of removal, ib. 998-1003. Non-requirement at present of additional space, Bep.p. x Necessity of providing 540—I. D studies MIN M U S Report, 1 860 — continued. Mineralogical Department — continued. studies and working rooms for the officers of the department, Rep. p. x Suggestion that a sufficient portion of ground should be purchased on the north side of the Museum as a site for galleries to provide for mineralogy, ib. p. xii. See also Krantz Collection of Minerals. Mosaics. Suggestions relative to the arrangement of the mosaics, Oldfield 1970. 1983- 1986 Want of distinct space for the valuable collection of mosaics, Newton 3146- 3H8. Murchison, Sir Roderick Impey. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Director General of the Geological Survey of the United Kingdom, and Director of the Museum in Jermyn- street ; has for many years taken an interest in the collections of the British Museum, 1230-1232 Reference to the appointment of the Royal Commission of 1848, and to the suggestions in their report relative to the management of the natural history collec- tions, 1233. 1235 Views of the British Association in favour of a " well selected and well classified" exhibition of natural history objects, 1234. Witness was elected a trustee of the British Museum in 1852, since which period there has been no. improvement in the accommodation for the natural history collections, on account of their contemplated removal, 1236-1240 Non-adoption of some valuable improvements suggested by the natural history committee in 1858; 1239, 1240. 1319 Considerable improvements have, however, been made in the department of art, 1242. Expediency of a proper limit being placed upon the introduction of excavations of ancient sculptures, &c, 1242. 1299-1301 Evidence strongly in favour of exhibiting selected specimens or types, rather than of exhibiting every species in natural history, 1242.1252-1255. 1287-1293. 1322 Adequate space in the environs of the present building for the proper exhibition of the natural history collections for many years to come, that is, if the typical system of arrangement be adopted, 1242. 1250-1252. 1292- 1301. 1312-1318. 1322. Witness addresses sundry cogent reasons for the retention of the natural history col- lection at the British Museum, and sundry objections to its removal to Kensington, 1243-1250. 1283-1306 Objection to the keepers being required to give lectures, 1256-1259 Doubt as to the advantage of a system of lectures by non-officials, 1260 Witness looks upon the Museum as a consulting dictionary, or encyclopaedia of literature, science and art, 1261. 1342. Particulars relative to the organization and administration of the Jardin des Plantes, or Museum of Natural History in Paris, 1261-1267 Suggestions relative to the working of the sub-committees and the standing committee at the" British Museum, more espe- cially as regards the business of the natural history department, 1268-1282. 1307-1309 Importance of more real influence in the heads of departments ; suggestions hereon, 1268, 1269. 1309 Admiration on the part of men of science abroad for the natural history collections of the Museum, 1284 Communication from M. deVerneuil, in strong approval of the system of concentration at the British Museum, and offering sug- gestions relative to the method of exhibition, ib. Better character of the natural history collections in London than in Paris, 1285, 1286 Expediency of objects intended only for students in science being placed in cases in galleries or in drawers, 1287-1289. 1319. 1324-1341 Effect of the system of concen- tration to induce gifts and bequests which would not otherwise be made; illustration in the case of witness, 1302-1306. Advantage in the keepers visiting and reporting upon foreign collections, 1310, 1311 Want of much more space in the department of palaeontology ; means of supplying it, 1312-1319 — -Doubt as to the extent of site to be required for a new natural history museum at Kensington; it depends upon the system of arrangement, 1320-1323. Museum d'Histoire Naturelle (Paris). Particulars relative to the organization and admi- nistration of the Jardin des Plantes, Sir R. I. Murchison 1261-1267. Programme of the course of lectures for the year i860, at the Museum of Natural His- tory in Paris, Jpp. p. 236, 237. Museum of Practical Geology. Successful operation of the Museum of Practical Geology in Jermyn-street ; its detached character adverted to hereon, Maskelyne 961-963 System of lectures, and of admission thereto, at the Geological Museum, Huxley 1117- 1120— —Limited character of the contents of the museum, ib. 1138-1141. 1178-1186 Limittd extent to which it is contemplated to increase the fossils, ib. 1138. 1140. 1185,1186 Approval of the distinct character of the Geological Museum; if, how- ever, it had from the first been in conjunction with the British Museum, it would be better not to remove it, ib. 1 142-1 189. See also Majolicas. Purchases . National NAT NAT 19 Report, i860 — continued. N. National Gallery. There is some plan for a moderate extension of the National Gallsry, Sir C. Eastlake 2654-2656 Improved administration of the gallery since it has teen placed under one head, and the number of trustees reduced, ib. 2658-2665. See also Prints and Drawings. Natural History Collection. Evidence in favour of a removal of the natural history collection, and of placing it in one national museum; sundry objections thereto answered, Panizzi 203 et seq. 247, 248. 252. 3510. 3683, 3684 Objection to the books on natural history being removed with the collection ; a special library should be formed, although the cost would probably be more than 20,000?., ib. 203-208. 359. 369, 370. 35 2 6-35 2 9 Reference to the circumstance of a large number of scientific men, including Professor Owen, having protested against the removal ; explanation hereon, ib. 213-218. 483-493 Witness questions the accuracy of statements as to the natural history collection being peculiarly attractive to the public, and adduces grounds for an opposite conclusion, ib. 218-225 Probability of the natural history collection, if removed to Kensington, being equally visited from the centre and east of London, ib. 229-237. Grounds for concluding that the natural history collection might be removed to anv part of London without much expense in removal, and without injury, Panizzi 238-243 ; Owen 541-546 Reference to a resolution passed by the trustees that it was expedient to move the natural history collection fiom Bloomsbury, Panizzi 347 Inadequacy of the additional space proposed for the natural history department by a plan of Mr. Smirke in 1857; large annual increase of registered specimens adverted to hereon, Owen 512-517 • Reference to a plan submitted by witness in February 1859, wherein he provides for the natural history collection for about 30 years ; calculations in support of the require- ments therein, ib. 518 et seq. Witness's plan of 1859 involves a space of five acres for his department, or of ten acres if there be no second story ; total area to be provided in the building, ib. 538. 596. 647-650. 653- 695-697. Cost of a library for the natural history collection if removed; use to be made of the -Banksian library, Owen 547-551 Practicability of extending witness's plan by degrees so as not to over-build at first, ib. 552-555 Comparative value and extent of the collection of natural history in the British Museum, and of foreign collections, ib. 556- 558. 562-566 Examination relative to the views expressed by witness in 1858, compared with his present views upon the subject of the proposed severance from the Museum of its natural history collection ; respects in which he now approves of the severance, ib. 568-591. 631. 677-679 -The juxtaposition of the library and sculptures is the only advantage in retaining the natural history collection in its present locality, ib. 571. 591. 631. 744 The locality of the collection is of secondary importance as com- pared with its completeness, ib. 572. 594-597. Advantage, as regards the natural history collection, of the central position of the Museum and its accessibility to the general public, Owen 574, 575 ; Gray 773. 779-784; Waterhouse 845; Maskelyne 926. 956-960; Gould 1011-1013. 1039-1043; Huxley 1069 ; Sir R. I. Murchison 1246 ; Sir B. Brodie 1356, 1357 ; Bell 1440-1442. Sundry cogent reasons for the retention of the natural history collection at the British Museum, and sundry objections to its removal to Kensington, Gray 773-789. 830-832. 1193; Waterhouse 845-851; Maskelyne 921-929. 952-977; Gould 1007-1015. 1039- 1050; Huxley 1124-1157; Sir R. I. Murchison 1243-1250. 1283-1306; Sir B. Brodie 1351-1378 ; Bell 1436-1443 Large expenditure to be incurred in a separate museum of large size, as well as in the removal thereto, Gray 773. 832. 1193; Sir B. Brodie 1373, 1374; Smirke 2456 Evidence as to the popularity of the natural history collections, Gray 774-783; Waterhouse 845; Maskelyne 92 4, 925; Gould 1009, 1010 ; Sir R. I. Murchison 1245 ; Sir B. Brodie 1354, 1355. Objection both by the scientific world and by the public at large to any removal of the collection, Waterhouse 845. 849-851 Great damage to many of the specimens if removed, ib. 845, 846 Error in supposing that the natural history collections will go on increasing in the same manner that they have done, ib. 845. -Witness signed two memorials in favour of non-separation of the collections at the British Museum ; explains the circumstances under which he did so, Huxley 1065-1072 Inadequacy of the estimate of 20,000 1, as the cost of a natural history library, ib. 1096. 1187, 1188 Opinion that the provision of six such rooms as the ornithological room, or an additional room of two and a half acres, would be ample for the natural history department for fifty years to come, ib. 1099-1101. Since 1852 there has been no improvement in the accommodation for the natural history collections on account of the contemplated removal, Sir JR. I. Murchison 1236- 1240 Non-adoption of some valuable improvements suggested in 1858 by the natural history committee, ib. 1239, 1240. 1319 Better character of the natural history col- lection in London than in Paris, ib, 1285, 1286 Reference to a special meeting of the trustees on the 2lst January last, when a motion was brought forward relative to the removal of the natural history collection, Sir B. Brodie 1345-1350. 540 — I. d 2 Feeling 20 NAT NEW Report, 1 860 — continued. Natural History Collection — continued. Feeling of the great body of naturalists in disapproval of separation, Bell 1442 The portion of the upper floor now devoted to antiquities might be devoted to natural history, Oldfield 2027, 2028. 2037 Witness would like to see the collection connected with botanical and zoological gardens, Layard 2509. 2608 Importance of the natural history collection being easily accessible to the public; its connexion with antiquities is not material, Newton 3191, 3192. Statement delivered in, and explanation thereupon, relative to the number of visitors respectively to the antiquities and library departments and to the natural history depart- ment; excess in the former case, Panizzi 3,511-3521. 3582-3587 Witness never had any share in Professor Owen's plan for a natural history museum, ib. 3600. Summary by the Committee of the arguments against removal, Rep. p. iii Especial popularity of the natural history collections, ib. iii, iv Considerable dissatisfaction if the collections were removed from their present central position to one less generally accessible, ib. p. iv Consideration of the question ofexpense in connexion with removal to another site and a new building, as compared with the expense of an enlargement of the present structure, ib.p. iv-vi. xiii Objection to removal on account of the advantage of connexion with the great national library, ib.p. iv Reference to the injury appre- hended on removal, ib. p. vi Also to the interruption to scientific inquiry consequent upon the time to be taken up in packing, removing, &c, ib. Summary of the arguments in favour of removal, Hep. p. vi Reference to state- ments as to the unduly large extent of the present collections, ib. Reference to the argument that there is no advantage in retaining the collections of art and natural history in the same building, ib, Increased facilities of management if the collection be removed, ib. Suggestion that the portion of the upper floor now occupied by antiquities should, like the remainder of the floor, be appropriated to the natural history collections, Rep. p. xii Estimate of 620,000 1, as the cost of a site and building at Kensington; other expenses incidental to removal, ib. Conclusion that sufficient reason has not been assigned for the removal of the collec- tion, Hep. p. xiii. See also Antiquities. Botanical Collection. Concentration of Collections. Cost of Land and Buildings. Deterioration by Exposure. East India Company. Exhibition. Fishes. Galleries. Increase of Accommodation. Kensington. Mammalia. Plans. Studies. Stuffing and Setting up of Specimens. Westminster. ■ Working Classes. Zoological Collection. Newton, Charles Thomas. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Was formerly an assistant at the British Museum ; has since been Vice-consul at Mytilene, and Consul at Rome; has had an extended experience in connexion with archaeology, 3125-3129 ^Respect in which the accommodation for and the arrangement of the sculptures in the Museum is very defective, 3130 Suggestion relative to the arrangement of the marbles sent home by witness from Budrum, from Cnidus and from Branchidae ; size and character of the rooms required, 3130-3139.3193-3197 Expediency of a distinct place for the very valuable collection of Greek inscriptions, 3130. Importance, in arranging the sculptures, of the principle of historical order, 3140- 3144 Improvement if the sculptures were all on the same floor, 3145 Want of distinct space for the valuable collection of mosaics, 3146-3148 Considerable additional space likely to be required for sculptures, vases and terra-cottas, 3149 Small miscellaneous objects of antiquities need not be on the same floor as the sculptures, 3150-3152. Evidence in favour of combining in one gallery medieval collections of art and pictures, or failing such arrangement, of removing" the mediaeval collection from the British Museum to the South Kensington Museum, 3153 et seq. Line of distinction between Pagan art and Christian art dating from the reign of Constantine the Grea% 3183-3186 Importance of the natural history collection being easily accessible to the public; its connexion with antiquities is not material, 3191, 3192 {Mr. Westmacott.) Termination of the mediaeval period in the 16th century, 3198. [Second Examination.] — Further evidence as to the line of distinction to be drawn between Pagan art and Christian art with reference to the formation of one national mediaeval collection or museum of Christian art, 3199 et seq. Question of removing the mediaeval collection from the British Museum to Kensington, further considered and recommended; how the arrangement of the combined collection of Christian art should be carried out, 3210 et seq. Reference to a passage in a letter from witness to Colonel Mure in 1853, in which he upholds the theory of one museum for all antiquities whatsoever; reason for now recom- mending something much smaller, 3246, 3247 Advantage of the facility for an expansion of the South Kensington Museum, 3251 Inexpediency of lending unique or rare specimens from the museum, 3252 -Increase of taste consequent upon the practice of NEW OLD 21 Report, 1 860 — continued. Newton, Charles Thomas. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. of circulating works of ait, 3253 Objections to circulating objects of art in the British Museum, 3260-3262. Grounds for approving of the removal of the ethnographical collection from the British Museum, 3265 Original drawings might be removed, but it is hardly desirable to separate the prints from the library, 3266 Reference to a report made by witness upon the museums of Italy as visited by him in 1848 at the instance of the British Museum Trustees, 3267-3270 Advantage if, under certain conditions, officers of the Museum were encouraged to travel and to visit foreign museums, 3271. 3278, 3279. The probability of making further discoveries of antiquities in the Levant was the main reason why witness went thither in the consular service ; valuable collections which hehas been instrumental in obtaining, 3272-3277. 3292-3298 Importance of encouraging consuls in making collections of ancient remains, 3276, 3277. 3293-3296 ——Objections to lectures at the British Museum except on a very limited scale; faci- lities hereon at the South Kensington Museum, 3280-3291. Want of a better exhibition of inscriptions further adverted to, 3299-3301 — — Dif- ferent objects by which the authorities respectively at the South Kensington Museum and at the British Museum should be guided in purchasing works of art, 3302-3305 Valuable collection of sepulchral brasses at the Kensington Museum, 3306-3308 Probability of there being in a mediaeval collection many more objects which would be desirable as works of art than as works possessing merely an historical interest, 3309- 33>i- Newton, Mr. Letter from Mr. Newton to Mr. Panizzi, dated 30 November 1859, relative to the arrangement of the sculptures from Cnidus, &c. in the British Museum, App. p. 239- 241 Further letter from Mr. Newton, da'.ed 18 June 1860, relative to a division of all art and antiquities into Christian and Pagan, and the combination, in one museum, of mediaeval art and pictures, ib. 241, 242. Number of Visitors. Number of visitors to the British Museum and other public institu- tions in the metropolis and suburbs during each of the last ten years, App. p. 243. Numismatic Collection. See Coins and Medals. O. Officers of the Museum. Statement as to the officers of the Museum being now included under the Superannuation Act, Panizzi 470 Understanding that ihe junior officers are to undergo the civil service examinations, ib. 470-472. Improper classification of the officers in the antiquities department, Hawkins 1651- 1655 Better education required in the officers of the department of antiquities than in those of any other department, ib. 1653, 1654. Comment on a statement by Mr. Hawkins as to the officers of the antiquities depart- ment requiring a specially high education, Panizzi 3623-3625 Expediency of an improved classification of the staff in the department of antiquities ; the matter is under the consideration of the trustees, ib. 3626-3635. See also Heads of Departments. Oldfield, Edmund. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Has had the care of the Greek and Roman antiquities since 1852 ,- 1902, 1903 Has visited the principal foreign museums with a view to the adoption of improved arrangements at home, 1904-1910 Has had the chief part since 1852 in ihe arrangement of the sculptures, 1911-1915 Considers that the several galleries devoted to sculptures are ill adapted for the purpose either in point of proportions or lighting; particulars hereon, 1916-1936 Defects in the present arrangement of the Elgin marbles, 1923, 1944, 1945 Unsuitable accommodation for and objectionable arrangement of the Assyrian sculptures, chro- nological order being entirely neglected, 1924-1936. Means for a chronological arrangement of the sculptures by the adoption of a sug- gestion by Mr. Panizzi, involving the removal of the principal staircase to the left of the entrance hall, 1937 Cost of removal of the Egyptian collection adverted to; arrangement formerly of the Elgin marbles by Sir Richard Westmacott, 1942, 1943. [Second Examination.] — Further statement as to the defects in the present arrangement of "the Elgin room, 1946-1948 Explanation relative to a plan submitted by witness in January 1856 for the arrangement of the Greek sculpture; suggestions as to the steps desirable to be taken hereon, 1949-1952 Considerable value attached to the Halicar- nasshm and Branchidae collection ; suggestions as to the mode of arrangement, 1952, !953- ! 956-1959 Correction of a statement as to Mr. Westmacott having been employed to restore Halicarriassian sculptures, 1954,1955. Explanation of the term " Greeco-Roman " sculptures, i960 Former and present accommodation and arrangement in the case of the Grseco-Roman sculptures ; expla- nation relative to the alterations adopted, and the further alterations required, 1961- 1970 Expediency of the rooms being adapted beforehand to the collections, 1971, 54°— !• D 3 197 2 22 OLD ORI Report, 1 860— continued. Oldfield, Edmund. (Analysis of liis Evidence) — continued. igyz — — Chronological arrangement in the Roman room ; defective light in this room, 1973-1975 Suggestion that the Roman gallery be used as a room in which to receive sculptures on arrival, and in which to repair them, 1976. Objectionable character of the sepulchral rooms on the basement; how they are arranged, 1977, 1978 Suggestions relative to the arrangement of the mosaics, 1979. 1983-1986 Value of the Phoenician inscriptions; they should all be kept together, 1980-1982 Mode of arrangement of the Temple collection, 1987 Suggested re-arrangement of the Lycian sculptures if more space be available, 1988, 1989 Ar- rangement of the vase collection adverted to, 1990 Nature of the light desirable for vases, terra-cottas, coins, &c, 1991. 1995, 1996. Want of an additional room for an exhibition of coins, 1992-1995 Decided objec- tion to a removal of the works of mediaeval art, 1997 Want of additional rooms for several purposes in connexion with witness's department, and suggestions as to the pro- vision of the required space to the west of the present collection, 1998-2005 -Sugges- tions as to the mode of construction and the lighting of the additional galleries required for the sculptures, 2005-2023. Explanatory statement in connexion with a detailed plan prepared by witness for an extension of the present building, 2013 et seq. and App. p. 245-256 Explanation relative to the proposed arrangement, chronologically, of the sculptures in the system of galleries contemplated by witness, 2024. 2045 et seq. The portion of the upper floor now occupied by antiquities might be devoted to natural history, 2027, 2028. 2037. Estimate of 65,000 I. as the cost of the required ground and of 145,000 I. as the cost of the building, 2029-2033 Difficulty in forming an estimate of the period for which the proposed extension would suffice, 2034-2036. Facility forfeiture extensions if witness's plan be adopted, 2034, 2035. 2077-2096 Total amount of additional space comprised in witness's plan, 2038. 2072-2076. 2080- 2087. 2104— — Adoption, in the plan, of Mr. Panizzi's suggestion for the removal of the great staircase, 2038-2044 The plan does not provide for the ethnographical collection, which it is proposed to withdraw, 2097. 2102, 2103 — —Nor for the Oriental collections, 2098 Adequacy of a sum of 250,000 I. to cover the entire cost of the plan, 2099- 2101 Statement as furnished by Mr. Hawkins of the space now occupied by the several departments of antiquities and of the additional space required, 2104. Organization and Administration. What is most wanted is, that there should be some one at the head of the institution with enlarged powers, and possessing greater influence and weight than witness possesses, Panizzi 354. 428-435 Importance of regular attend- ance of some member of the Government as a trustee, ib. 354, 355 Effect of a separation of the collections to facilitate the management and to prevent collisions, Panizzi 423-425. 449-454; Owen 748-751 Objections to there being three divisions of the present building under distinct administrations, Panizzi 426-428. Suggested separation of the Museum into three divisions, each to be administered by a separate superintendent and keepers, Mashelyne 943. 978- The trustees should assume more the functions of visitors, under the presidency of a high administrative officer, to whom the divisional superintendents should be responsible, ib. 943-945. 978-991 Paramount importance of the question of re-organization, Huxley 1074-1078 There should be three divisions of the Museum, each under a separate head, who should be directly responsible to the governing body, ib. 1106-1 no. Witness delivers in a written statement explanatory of his views upon the subject of the organization of the institution, and the question of separation, &c, Gray 1192, 1193 — . Suggestions relative to the working of the sub-committees and the standing committee at the British Museum, more especially as regards the business of the natural history department, Sir It. I. Murchison 1268-1282. 1307-1309 Approval of the system of control devised by the Royal Commission of 1848-49, ib. 1268 Consideration as to the best mode of administration in the event of non-separation, Sir B. Brodie 1418-1424 Great improvement if the department of antiquities were administered independently of any oiher department by a resident head, and if the trustees acted more as a consulting body, Hawkins 1638-1650. Witness considers that the system of administration of the Museum is essentially wrong, and that the collection of art should be under a perfectly distinct direction, and under one head, Layard 2508-2520. 2576-2583. 2604, 2605. 2615-2622. 2626 As to - there being different localities for the science and art collections ; witness has not studied this question, but the buildings should be distinct, ib. 2509-2513. 2583. 2606-2608 . If there were a head for each department the trustees should not take part in the administration; importance of separate heads, ib. 2515-2520. 2^79, 2f8o. $/ trl See also Heads of Departments. South Kensington Museum. Trustees. ! / Oriental Manuscripts. Advantage if the Oriental manuscripts at the India House were transferred to the British Museum, Panizzi 192. Ornithological R N OWE 23 Report, i860 — continued. Ornithological Collection. Inadequacy of certain estimates as to the additional space to be required for ornithological specimens over a given period, Owen 51 1. 521-524 Instance of the importance of exhibiting varieties of species of birds, ib. 622-624. 629, 630. For the last two or three years witness has felt and said that it was not desirable to exhibit so much, Gray 768 Great injury resulting from exposure to light; advantage hereon of keeping specimens in drawers, Gray 793-795. 799,800; Gould 1021-1025; Sell 1465 There should be a collection in drawers of every species not exhibited, which should be accessible to ornithologists ; these specimens should not be stuffed, Gray 810-812. 815. 820-822. 826; Gould 1016-1025. 1033-1056 Attractiveness especially of the ornithological collection, Maskelyne 1009, 1010. 1041. Adequacy as regards birds of the present space if the principle of a typical arrange- ment be properly carried out; suggestions hereon, Gould 1016 et seq. ; Huxley 1082- 1084. 1104, 1105. 1164-1177 Witness does not contemplate any large addition of birds for some years to come, Gould 1026, 1027 Proposed arrangement of the cases and proposed system of galleries in connexion with a typical exhibition of birds, Huxley 1084. 1164-1177 Very large area of the ornithological room, ib. 1101-1103' Approval of there being fancy cases of birds scattered throughout the bird room, ib. 1105. Explanation as to the exhibition of several specimens of a certain species of birds, Gray 1202-1206. 1211, 1212 Several duplicates exhibited in the ornithological department; instance in the group of pterocles, Sclater 2826-2832 Statement to the effect that there are not too many specimens exhibited in the ornithological room, Panizzi 353 12 ' 3566-3569 Comment upon a statement by Dr. Gr.iy that too much was exhibited ; his practice in expenditure adverted to hereon, ib. 3588-3599. Statement of the amount paid for stuffing, stands, shades and tablets during each of the last ten years, App.p. 244. See also Duplicates. Exhibition. Pigeons. Stuffing and Setting up of Specimens. Osteology. Exclusion of the public from the osteological collections, Panizzi 40 Pro- posed mode of arrangement and extent of exhibition in the galleries of osteology, Owen 658, 659. 705-708 Want of room for the osteological department, Gray 769. 803. 812. 1193. Owen, Professor Richard. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Superintendent of Natural History in the British Museum, 495 Want of space equally in the department of geology as of zoology, 496-500 Disapproval of a suggestion by Dr. Gray that some galleries be built for the exhibition of zoology, 501-505 Slight value attached to a certain ex- pedient for lighting some of the mineralogical rooms by skylights instead of laterally, 506, 5°7- 598-611 Increase of space by the erection of galleries for ornithology, as pro- posed to the sub-committee in 1857 ; 5°^ Importance, in carrying out extensions, of providing studies, 509. Inadequacy of certain estimates as to the additional space to be required for ornitho- logical specimens over a given period, 511. 521-524 Inadequacy of the additional space proposed for the natural history department by a plan of Mr. Smirke's in 1 857 ; large annual increase of registered specimens adverted to hereon, 512-517 Reference to a plan submitted by witness in February 1859, wherein he provides for the natural history collections for about thirty years; calculations in support of the requirements therein, 518 et seq. Evidence in favour of the principle of exhibiting every known specimen and variety of birds, &c, rather than of, selecting for exhibition merely the typical forms, 523-532. 622- 624. 628-630 Necessity of a gallery 850 feet long by 50 wide, in order to facilitate the exhibition of existing mammalia and of the skeletons of gigantic animals now extinct, 533-537- 5^4- 614-616. 620, 621. 624-627 Advantage in the more bulky specimens being on the ground floor, laterally lighted, and in the smaller objects being on the floor above sky-lit, 539. 566, 567. Grounds for concluding that the natural history collection might be removed to any part of London, without much expense in removal, and without injury, 541-546 Cost of a library for the natural history collection, if removed ; use to be made of the Sanksian library, 547-551 Practicability of extending witness's plan by degrees, so as not to overbuild at first, 552-555 Comparative value and extent of the collection of natural history in the British Museum and of foreign collections, 556-558. 562-564 Useful- ness of visits by heads of departments to foreign museums, 559-561. Examination relative to the views expressed by witness in 1858, as compared with his present views, upon the subject of the proposed severance from the Museum of its natural history collection ; respects in which he now approves of the severance, 568- ggi., 631 The question of the library is the main objection to severance, 571. 631. 642 The locality of the collection is of secondary importance as compared with its completeness, 572. 594-597 Witness retains the opinion formerly expressed, that the botanical collection should be removed to Kew, 573. 576. 579, 580 As regards the ca I, d 4 mineralogical 24 OWE PAN Report, i860 — continued. Owen, Professor Richard. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. mineralogical department, witness explains that lie is now opposed to its removal, 573 57 6 "57 8 - 081. Objection to the erection of new rooms with galleries, after the plan of the College of Surgeons, for the natural history department; advantage, however, of galleries, if the present exigencies of space be not remedied, 592, 593. 598-611 Space and arrange- ment proposed with regard to reptilia, fishes and geology, 620. 622. 624 Few, if any, duplicates in witness's department which he could afford to part with, 628-630. Object of ihe Museum not only to amuse and instruct the people, but to possess com- pleteness as a national collection, 632-637 Means for amusing and instructing the working classes through a less complete collection differently selected, 638-640 Provision at present for uninterrupted scientific investigation, 641 Absence of dis- advantage in the concentration of the collections if there were room enough for the development of each, 643-650 Witness looks upon ethnology as a most essential branch of natural history, and considers that it should be comprised in any removal, 651, 652. [Second Examination.] — Total of 485,100 superficial feet comprised in witness's plan for a natural history collection, 653 Mode of arrangement in a building of two storeys covering five acres, as compared with a building on one floor covering ten acres, 654-657 Proposed mode of arrangement, and extent of exhibition in the galleries of osteology, 658, 659. 705-708 Further evidence in favour of a removal of the natural history collection, 660-663. 677-679. 747-751 Improved representation of the natural history department at the Board of Trustees, 664-669. Advantage if the heads of departments had seats and voices at the Board of Trustees, and if the system of written reports were abolished, 670-675. 722-724 Improvement if there were no intermediate authority between the head of the natural history collection and the authority granting the means for his operations, 676. 722-724. Evidence in favour of a system of lectures on natural history to be given at the Museum by the heads. of the different departments; suggestions as to the character of the lectures, the mode of admission, &c, 680-688. 709-721. 741-746 Obstacle to the delivery of lectures by persons unconnected with the Museum, 686-691. 742. Extent of the total space to be requited eventually, which witness would, in the first instance, make use of, 695-697 Some space might be saved by the suspension of spe- cimens from the roof, or by their attachment to the walls above the cases, 699-704 Further statement as to the economy of space respectively in a building of two storeys and in a building of one storey, 725-739 Further explanation relative to witness's estimate of the space for zoology, mineralogy and geology, 738-740. [Third Examination.] — Particulars as to the large demand for additional space for the exhibition of insects, 2490 ; also as to want of additional space for the class of fishes, ib. ; also as to the want of a largely increased exhibition of the varieties of pigeons, ib. Necessity of placing in the basement crypts objects received from the Livingstone and similar expeditions, 2491 The transfer of certain galleries from the antiquities to the natural history department would enable only a partial exhibition of the class mammalia, 2492-2498 The large increase of area proposed by witness has reference to future wants over a lengthened period, and would not involve any very large immediate expense on the score of staff, &c, 2499-2501 Reference to the defective manner in which some of the specimens of mammalia and ornithology are stuffed and set up; a first-rate artist is employed, 2502-2504. Paleontology. Prejudice to the study of the pataontological collection if the botanical collection were removed, Bennett 1216. See also Mammalia. Panizzi, Antonio. (Analysis of his Evidence.)— Principal Librarian at the Museum; has been there twenty-nine years, 1, 2 Demands have been made by almost all the' departments for increased space, 3-7 Adequate space for many years to come for printed books, 8. 153, 154 Reference to reports by witness in November 1857, and July 1858, relative to the means for an increase of accommodation, 9, 10 Very im- perfect manner in which different collections of antiquities are exhibited on account of the want of space, 1 1-26. Objections to the north library being made available for antiquities, 27-34 Want of space for the proper exhibition of the prints and drawings, 35-37 Especial want of accommodation for the zoological collections, 38, 39. 42. 59 Exclusion of the public from the osteological collections, 40 The insect room is the worst in the building, 41. Want of space in the fossil and mineralogical departments adverted to in connexion with the appropriation of space for studies ; reason for the postponement of the erection of P A N 1 Z Z I. 25 Report, 1 860 — continued. Panizzi, Antonio. (Analysis of his Evidence) — continued, of new studies, 42-51 Consideration of the question of raising the height of some of the rooms in the natural history department, and of erecting galleries in which to exhibit the objects less interesting to the general public ; objections to this expedient, 50-58 ■ — —Statement in favour of the principle of exhibiting not only species or types, but varieties of species, 54. 58-74. Reference to a suggestion in witness's report of June 1858, as to the acquisition of a part of Great Russell-street, 75-78 Explanation relative to a plan proposed by Mr. Smirke in November 1857, to which some additions were made by witness, in regard to the zoological collections, and providing also for a portion of the antiquities, 79-100 Consideration of the question of erecting galleries in connexion with an extension to the north or west, such galleries being devoted to antiquities, 93-107. 109. Suggestion that many of the smaller objects in the basement floor might be removed to the second floor, 108 Expediency, in carrying out- extensions, of reference being- had to the life of the nation, and not merely to the life of the present generation, and of ample space being provided for the library and the natural history department, as well as for antiquities, 109-139 Reference to witness's estimate of 800,000 I. as the cost of the required land and buildings, of which 240,000 1, would be for the site ; about 500,000/. would be wanted in the first four years, 113. 1 1 7-130. 187. ] 99-201 Objection to any space provided for the library eventually, being in the meanwhile devoted to other purposes, 131-139. Evidence in detail, opposed to the concentration of the collections, and in favour of the removal of the natural history colleciion to Kensington; sundry advantages of such removal; sundry objections thereto, answered, 140 et seq., 203 et seq. Advantage of an increased provision of proper studies, 158-166 ^Suggested removal of a certain staircase in connexion with other alterations, as a means of improving the space devoted to antiquities; question of lighting adverted to hereon, 170-178. 182-186 Obstacles to a chronological arrangement of the antiquities, 171. 191 Approval of the exhibition of the Cnidus and Budrum marbles in their entirety, 179-181 Question whether a < building one story high, and lighted from the roof, might not be built between the houses to be acquired and the Museum, 188-190. Receipt of some natural history collections from the East India Company; how arranged, 192, 193 Advantage if the oriental manuscripts at the India House were transferred to the British Museum, 192 Importance of a room in which to place broken fragments of sculptures, 194 Objection to the books on natural history being removed with the collection ; a special library should be formed, although the cost would probably be more than 20,000 /., 203-208 Advantage if branch libraries and museums were established in different parts of the metropolis, 226 Comment upon a statement by Dr." Gray, as to the collection of duplicates in his possession at the Museum, 227, 228 Difference of opinion as to the removal of the botanical collection, 246 Larger grants likely to be obtained if the collections be separated, 252. [Second Examination.] — Further statement relative to the suggested building adjoining the piint room, as additional accommodation for the antiquities, 263-267 Reasons in favour of a removal of the ethnographical collection, 268-276 Grounds for ob- jecting to the collection of specimens of mediaeval art at the British Museum as well as at the Kensington Museum; means for distinguishing mediaeval art, so as to place it in a separate category, 277-312. 333-33°'- 34 2 > 343- Line of distinction sugge-ted between Christian and Pagan art, or mediaeval and classical art; views of Mr. Newton and others in reference to this question, 284-311. 356,357 Objection to a separation of the drawings and prints presented to the Museum, 313-315 Approval of measures being taken for a removal of the portraits; space available thereby, 316-318. 328, 329 -Necessity of an Act of Parliament in order to effect the removal of any of the collections, 318, 319. 331. Extent of space to be made available by the removal of the ethnographical collection, 020, 321 Also by the removal of the mediaeval collection, 322-324 Contemplated exhibition of coins and medals in the space now devoted to mediaeval art, 3 2 5-3 2 7 Opinion as to the advancement of science and art, by a separation of the collections ; confusion and bewilderment at present, 332. 337~34 l - Further reference to the greater facility of obtaining larger grants in the aggregate for separate institutions, 344, 345 Particulars relative to the attendance of members of Government, as trustees, at the meetings of the board, and part taken by them in moving; the estimates ; question as to the effect, on this score, of a separation of the collections, 346-353 Importance of regular attendance of some member of the - Government as a trustee, 354, 355- Reference to the circumstance of the library having been looked upon as the chief department when the Museum was founded, 358 importance of the classical anti- quities and ihe library being in the same building, further adverted to; less importance of the library being close to the mediaeval antiquities, 359-363 Fuither reference to the character and cost of the library to be attached to the collection of natural history 540-1- E if 26 P A N I Z Z I. Repoit, i860 — continued. Panizzi, Antonio. (Analysis of his Evidence)— continued. if removed, 359. 369, 370 Estimate of 240,000 /. as the cost of a site at the Museum, further adverted to, 364-367. Evidence in disapproval of lectures in the Museum, whether given by officers of the institution, or by persons unconnected with it, 371-395 Statement to the effect that there are not many duplicate or superfluous articles in any department of the Museum which could without disadvantage be parted with, 396-404. 407-419 Discontinuance of the sale of books and coins ; approval thereof, 397-403. Suggestion that in exceptional cases, and under proper precautions, duplicates of rare books might be lent out of the Museum, 404-406 Under the Copyright Act, a copy of each fresh edition should be, and is generally obtained, 419 Explanation relative to collections of books of reference for the use of the officers of the several departments^ 420-422. Effect of a separation of the collections to facilitate the management, and to prevent collisions, 423-425 Objections to there being three divisions of the Museum, under distinct administrations, 426-428 What is most wanted is, that there should be some one at the head of the institution, with enlarged powers, and possessing greater weight and influence than wiiness possesses, 428-435. Reference to the non-adoption of the recommendations of the Commissioners of 1848 ; improvement through the standing committee and sub committees since appointed, 429. 436-440 Considerations as to the expediency of the principle of hereditary trustees ; useful part taken by them in the management, 441-448 Absence of difficulty as regards management under the trustees if the collections were separated, 449-454 The mediaeval collection if removed to the Kensington Museum should still remain under the trustees of the British Museum, 454. [Third Examination.] — Doubt as to there being any advantage in officers of the Museum examining periodically the system of arrangement, 81c. in foreign museums, 455 _ 457 Adequate means at present for ascertaining when valuable objects are for sale abroad, 458. Non-objection to the extension of galleries to the west, on the ground merely that the spare may eventually be required for the library, 459-462 Provision of houses for two of the heads of departments, in addition to witness; approval thereof, 463-468 • Necessity of providing residences at a new museum ; probable cost thereof, 468, 469 Statement as to the officers of the Museum being now included under the Superan* nuation Act, 470 Understanding that the junior officers are to undergo the civil service examinations, 470-472. Concurrent opinion of the heads of departments that more space is wanted, and that there is no waste of space, 470-479. 494 Further objection to any of the collections being reduced in extent, completeness being the leading end and aim of the Museum, 479-482 Inaccuracy of several statements in the memoiial before referred to against a separation of the collection*, 483-493 Original foundation of the Museum adverted to, 490, 491 The present extent of the Museum could not have been foreseen at the first by the trustees, 492 Inconvenience of placing galleries round the top of the rooms fuither adverted to, 494. [Fourth Examination.]— Further remarks in favour of a removal of the natural history collection to Kensington, or some other locality, 3510 -Statement delivered in, and explanation thereupon, relative to the number of visitors respectively to the antiquities and library departments, and to the natural history department 5 excess in the former 0386,3511-3521.358-2-3587. With reference to the opinion of M. de Verneuil in favour of the present concentration of collections, witness cites the opinions of several other foreigners, eminent as naturalists, &c, who are all in favour of a removal of the natural history collections, 3522-3524* 3574- Further evidence favourable to a removal of the botanical collection to Kew, 3524> 35 2 5 Necessity for a good library for the natural history or botanical collections if removed; considerable expense thereof, 3526-3529, Witness further advocates the principle of exhibition in detail, rather than of a typical exhibition ; and objects to keeping specimens in drawers to be exhibited when asked for, 353 1 et seq. Statement to the effect that there are not too many specimens exhi- bited in the ornithological room, 3532. 3566-3569 Comment upon a statement by Dr. Gray that too much was exhibited ; his practice in expenditure adverted to hereon 3588-3599 Witness never had any share in Professor Owen's plan for a natural history museum, 3600. Disapproval of opening the natural history collection and the antiquities on alternate days, 3601-3607 Misconception on the part of Professor Maskelyne as to his havino- any special authority in regard to exchanges, 3608 Objections to the heads of depart" ments bein• ' *■ ™ fe 8 ^ wt hot,t reference to any particular suggested architectural appropriation of the pace wrtno 1 deteUs j^ 32l8 K— I^otdrng^mLrS wless^^liave suggested but' from motives of economy, ib. 2343, 2344. , . Al A-ir ,. m t knil.lino- nlans that have been submitted to the Committee, H^^M^rS'^fc, WdM*. tbeWee, and thaL none be ^^f^^l e ZT^2SZZf S L^ proposed by Mr. Ma s ke ly „e, £% "is-KTS' rg=«oo,|.— A l«0 of L upper d*. «.—**£ 540—1. 2 8 PL A SCI Report, i860 — continued. Plans — continued. the present limits of the Museum premises, App. p. 238 Also of the space now occupied by the Museum, and of the space proposed to be obtained for future extensions, ib. Memorandum by Mr. Oldfield in explanation of his plan for new buildings at the Museum, App. p. 245 Particulars in connexion with the plan of the ground floor, ib. ,245-251 Also in connexion with the plan of upper floors, ib. 251 Also in con- nexion wiih the plan of new buildings for antiquities, ib. 251-254 Also in connexion with the space proposed to be devoted to the natural history collections, ib. 255 Facility for future extension of the plan, ib. 256— — Plans showing the suggested additions on the west side, and the other arrangements proposed by Mr. Oldfield, ib. Expediency of the plans being carefully examined by professional men, both with regard to their architectural design and their internal arrangement, Hep. p. xii, xiii Suggestions with a view to securing the structural conditions indispensable for the proper arrangement of the collections, ib. The plans should, before adoption, be laid before both Houses of Parliament, ib. xiii. See also Arrangement. Cost of Land and Buildings. Increase of Accom- modation. Natural History Collection. Sculptures. Staircase. Portraits. Approval of measure being taken for a removal of the portraits; space available thereby, Panizzi 316-318. 328, 329. Question whether it may not be desirable to remove from the ornithological galleries the large number of portraits now occupying space theie, Rep. p. vi. Prints. See Drawings and Prints. Purchases. Importance of enlarging the power of the keepers in regard to purchases, Owen 676. 722-724; Maskelyne 936-940 Statement as to the expediency of witness' possessing an enlarged power of purchase, independently of the minute control of the trustees; injurious delay under the present system, Hawkins 1591-1612. 1691, 1692. 1 75 1 - 1 755- 1816-1840. 1S76-1883 Extent of witness's power at the Geological Museum in regard to purchases; the heads at the British Museum should have at least a similar power, Huxley nu-1116 Great advantage of the principle of individual responsibility and of the facility of purchases, as in the case of the Kensington Museum, Cole 2921-2923. 2976, 2977. Objection to the heads of departments being free to purchase what they like, Panizzi 3609 Explanation and approval of the present system in regard to purchases; direct power hereon frequently given to heads of departments, ib. 3614-3618. See also Parliamentary Grants. South Kensington Museum. It. Removal. Necessity of an Act of Parliament in order to effect the removal of any of the collections, Panizzi 211. 318, 319. 331. Upon a full consideration of the evidence adduced, the Committee conclude that sufficient reason has "not been assigned for the removal of any part of the valuable collections now in the Museum, except that of ethnography, and the portraits and drawings, as previously recommended, Rep. p. xiii. See^also Antiquities. Botanical Collection. Concentration of Collections. Cost of Land and Buildings. Drawings and Prints. Ethnographical Col- lection. Gifts and Bequests. Kensington. Medieeval Collection. Natural History Collection. Westminster. Reptiles. Space and arrangement proposed with regard to the present reptilia; inadequacy of the present character of this exhibition, Owen 620. 622. Restorations. Correction of a statement as to Mr. Westmacoit having been employed to restore Halicarnassan sculptures, Oldfield 1954, 1955 Exceptional instances in which modern restorations are desirable; how they should be effected, Westmacott 3074. Roman Sculptures. See Sculptures. Royal Commission of 1848. Non-adoption of certain recommendations of the Commission- ers of 1848; improvements through the standing committee and sub-committees since appointed, Panizzi 429. 436-440 Reference to the appointment of the Royal Com- mission in 1848, and to the suggestions in their report relative to the management of the natural history collections, Sir R. I. Murchison 1234. S. Sales. Discontinuance of the sale of books and coins ; approval thereof, Panizzi 397-403. Scientific Investigation. Provision at present for uninterrupted scientific investigation Owen 641. 5 ' Sclaler, S C L S C U 29 Report, i860 — continued. Sclater, Philip Lutley. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Secretary to the Zoological Society; has for many years taken a great interest in natural history, '2762-2764 Considers that many of the specimens in the British Museum are not set up or stuffed so well as they should be, or so well as specimens in some foreign collections, 2765-2769. 2775- 2777. 2794-2806 Is unfavourable to the principle of exhibiting everything, and considers a well-selected typical exhibition far preferable; how the latter should be carried out, 2769-2771. 2780-2793. 2808 et seq. 2856-2863. The best stuffers that can be procured should be employed ; excellent taxidermists in Paris adverted to hereon, 2772-2774. 2778, 2779. 2797. 2803-2805 Defective arrangement in the mammalian galleries, 2782 Importance of a more continuous classification of the natural history collections, 2783-2786 Approval of an exhibition of families of birds and mammalia in cross cases, as at Leyden, 2788-2793 Several duplicates exhibited in the ornithological department; instance in the group of pteiocles, 2826-2832. Veiy large number of visitors to the Zoological Gardens, especially on Mondays, 2844, 2845. 2850, 2851 Regulations as to admission to the gardens, 2846-2849 Class of people attending on Monday ; higher class on other days, 2852, 2853 Favourable situation of the gardens, 2855. Sculptures. Suggestion as to the erection of a building adjoining the print room, with a view to the exhibition of some of the sculpture collection, Panizzi 149-152. 167-170 ■ Expediency of a proper limit being placed upon the introduction of excavations of ancient sculpture, &c, Sir R. I. Murchison 1242. 1299-1301 The extension for sculpture should be on the west side of the Museum, towards Charlotte-street, Hawkins 1536-1540. 1688-1690. 1861-1863 All the marbles which may be excavated need not be publicly exhibited; they should be first " weeded," ib. 1762 Probable suf- ficiency of two additional parallel lines of galleries, with skylights, for the sculptures, &c, ib. 1851-1872 Approval of constant additions to the collection of ancient sculpture, ib. 1873, 1874. Witness has had the chief management since 1852, of the arrangement. of the sculp- tures, Oldfielcl 1911-1915 Considers that the several galleries devoted to sculptures are ill adapted for the purpose, either in point of proportions or lighting; particulars hereon, ib. 1916-1936 Explanation relative to a plan submitted by witness in January 1856, for the arrangement of the Greek sculpture; suggestions as to the steps desirable to be taken hereon, ib. 1949-1952 Disapproval of very large rooms for the exhibition of sculptures, ib. 1970 Chronological arrangement in the Roman room; defective light in the room, ib. 1973-1975 Suggestion that the Roman gallery be used as a room in which to receive sculptures on arrival, and in which to repair them, ib. 1976. Want of additional rooms for several purposes in connexion with witness's department, and suggestions as to the provision of the required space to the west of the present collection, Oldfield 1998-2005 Want of a room for inferior sculptures, ib. 1999 Suggestions as to the mode of construction, and the lighting of the additional galleries required for the sculptures, ib. 2005-2023 Expediency of the rooms being adapted belbiehand to the collections, Oldfield 1971, 1972 ; Smirke 2227-2233. 2248, 2249. Consideration as to the size and lighting of the galleries contemplated in witness's sketch in 1857, anc ^ as to their appropriation to sculptures or bas relief's, Smirke 2234- 2264 Statement as to the selection by witness, in his sketch of 1857, of the north side of the Museum as the site for new sculpture galleries ; question of arrangement of the sculptures adverted to hereon, ib. 2291-2312 Approval, generally, of a proposition for erecting sculpture galleries to the west, and for transferring to the natural history department the entire of the upper floor, ib. 2345-2353. 2368-2390. 2489. Exceedingly defective character of the present strueture for the exhibition of sculpture, Layard 2527, 2528. 2585-2589 Approval of the receipt or purchase of all valuable specimens ; superfluous objects or duplicates might be transferred to local museums, ib. 2599-2603 Approval of the plan adopted by Mr. Oldfield ; it does not, however, go far enough, and any patching up for a period is very expensive and unwise, ib. 2626. Functions exercised by witness at the British Museum in taking care of the sculptures; he is not on the establishment, Westmacott 3023-3033. 3119, 3120 -Requirement of double the present space in order to carry out the arrangement of the sculptures, as pro- posed by witness, ib. 3050-3053. 3080-3082 Improvement if the sculptures were all on the same floor, Newton 3145 -Disapproval of such constant purchases of sculptures as has been suggested by Mr. Hawkins, Panizzi 3609-3613. Proposed accommodation for and arrangement of the sculptures according to the plan of Professor Maskelyne, App. p. 238 Mode of arrangement proposed by Mr. 'Newton, in letter to -Mr. Panizzi, dated 30 November 1859, ib. 239, 240 Plan proposed by Mr. Oldfield, and explanations accompanying the same, relative to the arrangement in the several sculpture rooms, ib. 245-256. See also Antiquities. Arrangement. Assyrian Sculptures. Budrum and Cnidus Marbles. Egyptian Sculptures. Elgin Marbles. Graco Roman Sculptures. Greek Sculptures. Levant, 'Ike. Lightning. Lycian Room. Natural History Collection. Plans. Restorations. 540. — I. f 2 Separation 3 o SEP SOU Report, i860 — continued. Separation of Collections. See Concentration of Collections. Natural History Collection. Sepulchral Rooms. Objectionable character of the sepulchral rooms on the basement ; how they are arranged, Oldfield 1977-1979; Nevjton 3130. Sharks. There is no exhibition of British sharks, Owen 624 Inaccuracy of the fore- going statement, Gray 1200, 1201. Site. See Burlington House. Concentration of Collections. Cost of Zand and Buildings. Kensington. Millbanh. Natural History Collection. Plans. South kensington Museum. Westminster. Working Classes. Smirhe, Sidney. (Analysis of his Evidence.)— Is Acting Architect to the British Museum, 2217 Particulars relative to a plan sketched by witness in 1857 f° r tne enlargement of the Museum ; it was merely a suggested architectural appropriation of the space without reference to any particular purposes to which it was to be applied, and did not enter into any details, 22 18 et seq. Expediency in any new plan of adapting the galleries to the collections rather than the collections to the galleries ; this has always been done in witness's time, 2227-2233. 2248, 2249. Considerations as to the size and lighting of the galleries contemplated in witness's sketch in 1857, anc ' as to tne i r appropriation to sculptures or bas-reliefs, 2234-2264 Total area, and area to be lighted from the roof, according to this plan, 2257. 2270. 2303 Means of extending the plan, 2265-2269 Expediency of the rooms or galleries being of a certain height, and objection thereby to a building of three storeys, 2271-2284 The Egyptian gallery was not originally intended for the Greek and Roman sculptures, 2285-2287 Crying want of space in the antiquities department, 2290. Statement as to the selection by witness, in his sketch of 1857, of the north side of the Museum as the site for new sculpture galleries; question of arrangement of the sculptures adverted to hereon, 2291-2312 Estimated cost of the site to be procured respectively on the north, east, and west; total of five and a half acres, and total cost of 240,000 l, 2313-2339. 2406, 2407. •Improved airangement which witness might have suggested but for motives of economy, 2343, 2344 Approval, generally, of a proposition for erecting sculpture galleries to the west, and for transferring to the natural history department the entire of the upper floor, 2345-2353. 2368-2390. 2489 Approval of a certain suggestion for providing for the prints and drawings near to the manuscripts, 2355-2361. Advantage if there were separate entrances to the departments of natural history and antiquities, 2362-2367 Circumstance of witness having submitted a plan involving the removal of the great staircase, 2372-2376 Opinion that the five and a half acres obtainable would provide ample space for the next fifty years, 2390. 2406-2411 Means of providing additional accommodation by the erection of galleries in certain rooms ; lighting of these rooms adverted to with reference to tbe proper size for the galleries, 2391-2402 Means for improving the light in the mammalian and other rooms, 2403-2405 Economy of galleries between the Museum and the front in Charlotte-street, 2412. Consideration of the cost respectively of an additional site and building adjoining the Museum and of a new site and building at Kensington and certain other places, 2413- 2 475 Witness does not much like dividing the collection's, 2415 Understanding that at Kensington or Brompton the" land may be had for 5,000/. or 6,000 I. an acre, 2425-2429. 2437-2442. 2451-2453 Considerable cost of a removal of the collections 2450 Question of lighting by gas considered ; extent to which it may be done without injury or risk, 2476-2488. South Kensington Museum. Few if any objects in the South Kensington Museum, which should be in the British Museum, Hawkins 1562-1570; Panizzi 3686-3690 The Kensington Museum is an illustration of the great importance of one directing head, Layard 2520. 2604 Line of distinction between the Kensington and British Mu- seums; inexpediency of any rivalry between them in purchasing works of art, Layard 2 55i- 2 556 ; Newton 33°6-33o8. Primary object of the South Kensington Museum to accommodate the collections of ornamental art made for the use of the schools of art throughout the country, Cole 2905-2908 Reference to an inventory showing the objects of ornamental art in the. Museum, ib. 2906 Practice to exclude the classical element from the Museum, so as not to interfere with the British Museum, and to collect objects of mediaeval art as more practically useful, ib. 2908-2910. 3001-3004 Striking illustration of direct Parlia- mentary responsibility in the case of the South Kensington Museum; ib. 2920, 2921. Grounds for concluding that the locality of the South Kensington Museum is not inconvenient of access as regards the public at large ; number and character of the visitors, and distances whence they come ; prospect of increased convenience, Cole 2 935" 2 939- 2 97°- 2983-3000. 3015 The land at the Museum consists of twelve . acres, which will all be required for the Department of Science and Art, ib. 2940-2947. 2968 1 SOU WAS 31 Report, i860 — continued. South Kensington Museum — continued. 2968 Government acquired the land in 1854 and paid 5,000 I. an acre for it, ib. 2948- 2950.3022. Great value of the circulating system of the Kensington Museum, Cole 2970-2972 Opening of the Museum on certain evenings ; considerable expense thereby, ib. 2994- 2 997 Extent and cost of the library, ib. 3013, 3014 Advantage of the facility for an expansion of the Museum, Newton 3251 Very valuable collections in the Museum; they should be made still more perfect by constant increase, Panizzi 3686. 3695. Number of visitors in each year since 1852, App. p. 243. See also JBernal Collection. Kensington. Majolicas. Mediceval Collection. Staff. See Officers of the Museum. Staircase. Suggested removal of a certain staircase in connexion with other alterations, as a means of improving the space devoted to antiquities ; question of lighting adverted to hereon, Panizzi 170-178. 182-186 Adoption, in witness's plan, of Mr. Panizzi's sug- gestion for the removal of the great staircase, Oldfield 1937. 2038-2044 Circumstance of witness having submitted a plan involving the removal of the great staircase, Smirke 2372-2376. Storeys. Statement as to the economy of space respectively in a building of two storeys and in a building of one storey, Owen 654-657. 725-739. Studies. Advantage of an increased provision of proper studies ; suggestions hereon, Panizzi 42-51. 158-166; Owen 509; Gray 804-806. 813. 1193; Waterhouse 840 ; Mashelyne 889, 890. 914; Bell 1445-1447. 1474-1477. Expediency of providing studies in all the departments of natural history, for the use of visitors specially recommended, Rep. p. x. Stuffing and Setting-up of Specimens. Reference to the defective manner in which some of the specimens of mammalia and ornithology are stuffed and set up ; a first rate artist is employed, Owen 2502-2504 Witness considers that many of the zoological speci- mens in the British Museum are not set up or stuffed so well as they should be, or so well as specimens in some foreign collections, Sclater, 2765-2769. 2775-2777. 2794-2806 The best stuffers that can be procured should be employed ; excellent taxidermists in Paris adverted to hereon, ib. 2772-2774. 2778, 2779. 2797. 2803-2805. Suspensions from Roof. Some space might be saved by the. suspension of specimens from the roof, or by their attachment to the walls above the cases, Owen 699-704. T. Temple Collection. Mode of arrangement of the Temple collection, Oldfield 1 987. Trustees. Considerations as to the expediency of the principle of hereditary trustees ; useful part taken by them in the management, Panizzi 441-448 Improved represen- tation of the natural history department at the board of trustees, Owen 664-669 The functions of the trustees should be for the most part consultative, Mashelyne 943- q 5# 978-991 ; Huxley 1109, 1110; Hawkins 1638-1650 Witness is now opposed to an abolition of the trustees, Huxley 1073. Approval of the present system of trustees; necessity, however, of certain modifica- tions \ Sir R. 1. Murchison 1268 Inefficiency of the present working of the sub-com- mittees; suggestions on the subject, Sir R. I. Murchison 1268-1282. 1307-1309 ; Sir B Bro'die 1422-1424 Names of the trustees appointed since 1852, Sir R. I. Mur- chison 1280 Adequate representatives of science at the board of trustees, Sir B. Brodie 142 k_ Expediency of properly limiting the duties of trustees who represent donors of bequests to the Museum, Layard 2625. See also Organization and Administration. Typical Exhibition. See Exhibition. V. Vases. Arrangement of the vase collection adverted to, Oldfield 1990 Importance of providing for a large accession of vases, Newton 3149. Verneuil, M. de. See Concentration of Collections. Victoria Street. See Westminster. W. Wason Risiy. (Analysis of his Evidence.)— Considers that it would be unjust to the public to remove anything to the South Kensington Museum, whilst there exists in Victoria Street, Westminster, a site much more easily accessible, amounting to about four- teen acres, which may be had for 7,000/. per acre; sundry reasons in favour of the pur- chase of this land by Government, 3696-3732. t F 3 Waterltouse, 32 WAT WOR Report, i860 — continued. Waterhouse, George Robert. (Analysis of his Evidence.)— Keeper of the geological department, 833 Calculation that a total area of fifteen thousand seven hundred and thirty-seven superficial feet is required for witness's department, the present area being only six thousand six hundred and seventy-eight feet; details hereon, 834-836.852-856. 878-883. 887 Disapproval of an exhibition of all the specimens, that is of specimens which cannot be distinguished ; they tend only to confuse, 837-839. 842 Great want of studies for the accommodation of scientific men, 840. Probability of many large animals of an extinct race being obtainable for exhibition ; it is very desirable to procure them, 841. 857-873 Doubt as to a gallery eight hundred and fifty feet long by fifty wide, being sufficient for witness's department for the next fifty years, 842-844. 876, 877 — — Sundry objections to a removal of the natural history col- lection from the present site, 845-851 Valuable space to be afforded for fossils, &c. if certain galleries be carried out as suggested by witness, 852-856. 887 Numerous animals, many of them now extinct, not represented in witness's department, 857-875 The main principle of witness's arrangement is zoological, the geological arrange- ment being subordinate, 884-886. Way, Albert. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Has been engaged for many years in the pursuit of archaeological science as auxiliary to historical inquiry, 2682, 2683 -Con- siders it of great importance that there" should be a perfect archseological collection in the British Museum, and that a removal of the objects of mediaeval art would be ex- tremely undesirable, 2684 et seq. 2760, 2761 It would be extremely difficult, or rather impossible to separate mediaeval art from classic art, 2688 et seq. Suggestions as to several of the objects desirable to be comprised in the mediaeval collection, 2697, 2698. 2701 et seq. Approval of the mediaeval collections in the South Kensington Museum ; line of distinction between this collection and that in the British Museum, 2712-2715. 2760, 2761 Disapproval of the early or mediaeval engravings or illuminated manuscripts being removed from the British Museum, 2727- 2 73 L Suggestions relative to the classification or arrangement of a national art col- lection, with a view to scientific and chronological order, 2735-2746 Reference to the purchases fiom the Bcmal collection both by the British Museum and the Kensington Museum, 2756-2759. Westmacott, Richard. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — Functions exercised by witness at the Biitish Museum in taking care of the sculptures, and in superintending their removal; he is not on the establishment, 3023-3033. 3119, 3120 Very confused arrangement of the sculptures on account of the want of increased space and proper galleries, 3034- 3037. 3050-3052 Expediency of an artistical as well as a chronological arrangement of the sculptures; suggestions hereon as to the nature of the classification desirable with a view to study, 3038-3049. 3081-3098. 3123, 3124. Requirement of double the present space in order to carry out the arrangement of the sculptures as proposed by witness, 3050-3053. 3080-3082- Importance of skylights for the sculptures and bas-reliefs, 3057-3059. 3099-3104 Intention at first to place the Elgin marbles in the present Egyptian room; its unfitness for them, 3060-3065 Difference of opinion about the Lycian room, adverted to, 3066-3069 Importance of the question of the colour of the walls; witness's advice upon this subject has not been followed, 3070-3073. Exceptional instances in which modern restorations are desirable; how they should be effected, 3074 Definition of mediaeval art as having commenced about the time of Constantine and continued to the fifteenth century, 3078-3080. 3105 The Parthenon works should be kept by themselves, 3097, 3098 Doubt as to the propriety of a transfer of the mediaeval collection, 3106-31 11 Tendency of a passion for mediseval art to deteriorate fine taste, 3111 Disapproval of collecting in the Museum sculptures of a later date than early in the Roman empire, 3111-3122. Westminster. Witness considers that it would be unjust to the public to remove anything to the South Kensington Museum whilst there exists in Victoria-street, Westminster, a site much more easily accessible, amounting to about fourteen acres, which may be had for 7,000/. per acre; sundry reasons in favour of the purchase of this land by Govern- ment, Wason 3696-3732. Plan delivered in by Mr. Wason, being a design for a Museum at Westminster, having entrances and exits at each end on the ground floor, App. p. 244. Whales. See Cetacea. Working Classes. Evidence as to the interest taken by the working classes and by the people generally in the natural history collections as at present located, Gray 774-783; Waterhouse 845-848; Mashelyne 924, 925; Gould 1009, 1010 ; Sir R. I. Murchison 1245; Sir B. Brodie 1354, 1355 Statement as to the great interest taken by the working classes in the east of London in different branches of natural history, and as to the advantage to them in that collection being at Bloomsbury instead of at Kensington, Hewlett 2143 et seq. Evidence W O R ZOO S3 Eeport, i860 — continued. Working Classes — continued. Evidence as to the interest taken by the working classes in natural history collections, and as to the advantage to the people of Kensington, Chelsea, &c. if there were a museum of natural history at South Kensington, Hayes 3448 et se.q. Approval of a removal to Kensington of the collection of natural history in the British Museum; question, however, whether such removal would not be inconvenient to those living in the central and ea-tern districts of the metropolis, ib. 3464 ei seq. Wyse, The Right Hon. Sir Thomas. (Analysis of his Evidence.) — British Envoy and Minister at Athens for about eleven years, 3421, 3422 Particulars as 10 the excava- tions of antiquities at Athens and other parts of Greece, of late years ; and as to the pro- bable extent to which further excavations may be made, 3423-3427. 3432. 3439-3441 Obstacles to the acquisition, by this country, of further antiquities from Greece; prohi- bition by law upon their exportation, and growing feeling of Greeks in favour of national or local collections, 3424 et seq, Supply, through witness, of several casts to the British Museum of sculptures at Athens, 3430-3432 Steps taken by witness to impress upon the Greek government the propriety of continued excavations, and of the formation of a national museum, 3433. 3444 Approval of the principle of a chronological arrangement of museums; how ii should be carried out, 3444, 3445. Z. Zoological Collection. Especial want of accommodation for the zoological collections, Panizzi 38, 39. 42. 59 Explanation relative to a plan proposed by Mr. Smirke in November 1857, t0 which some additions were made by witness, in regard to the zoological collections, and providing also for a portion of the antiquities, ib. 79-100 Circumstance of witness's estimate of the space for zoology being much larger than that computed by Mr. Panizzi, Owen 738-740 Enormous space to be required, if all the specimens in zoological collection are to be exhibited, Gray 756. 807 Absence of disadvantage in there being no living zoological specimens in the Museum, ib. 823-825 Rapid progress made by the Museum in zoological collections, ib. 1193. Suggestion that the portion of the upper floor now occupied by antiquities, be devoted to the department of zoology, Rep. p. xii. See also Natural History Collection. Zoological Gardens. Attractiveness of witness's collection of humming birds when at the Zoological Gardens ; greater attraction if at the British Museum, Gould 1037-1043 Very large number of visitors to the Zoological Gardens, especially on Mondays, Sclater 2844, 2845. 2850, 2851 Regulations as to admission to the gardens, ib. 2846-2849 Class of persons attending on Mondays ; higher class on other days, ib. 2852, 2853 Favourable situation of the gardens as regards their accessibility, ib. 2855. 540-I. F 4 INDEX TO THE REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE BRITISH MUSEUM. f, Ordered, iy The House of Commons, to le Printed^ 10 August i860. 540—1. Under 8 o«.