CORNELL UNIVERSITY LIBRARY ,9.9'[i!;'?'-L UNIVERSITY LIBRARY 3 1924 088 427 814 \^y Cornell University Library The original of this book is in the Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924088427814 rNDlAN APPROPRIATION BIL i HEARINGS ^'^ ^ BEFORE T COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS UNITED STATES SE^ffi% ^<-A SIXTY-THIBD CONGRESAUG 2 1958 SECONI) SESSION \ \^. ! ON ^/BR^^ H. R. 12579 A.N ACT MAKING APPROPRIATIONS FOR THE CURRENT AND CON- TINGENT EXPENSES OF THE BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS, FOR FULFILLING TREATY STIPULATIONS WITH VARI- OUS INDIAN TRIBES, AND FOR OTHER PUR- POSES, FOR THE FISCAL YEAR 'V^V ENDING JUNE 30, 1915 ^ '; "f" rioted for the use of the Committee on Indian Affaire PART I >^ ,1 l//r WASHINQT017 GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE COMMITTEE ON INDIAN AFFAIRS. HENRY F. ASHURST, Arizona, Chairman. HENRY L. MYERS, Montana. KEY PITTMAN, Nevada. HARRY LANE, Oregon. JOE T. ROBINSON, Arkansas. WILLIAM H. THOMPSON, Kansas. ROBERT L. OWEN, Oklahoma. JAMES HAMILTON LEWIS, Illinois. M. L WILLIAM J. STONE, Missouri. MOSES E. CLAPP, Minnesota. ROBERT M. LA FOLLETTE, Wisconsin. CARROLL S. PAGE, Vermont. ASLE J. GRONNA, North Dakota. CHARLES E. TOWNSEND, Michigan. ALBERT B. FALL, New Mexico. McKelligon, Clerk. INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BILL. WEDNESDAY, MARCH 12, 1914. Committee on Indian Affairs, United States Sp:nate. Washington, D. C. . The committee has been called for the purpose of considering the bill (H. R. 12579) making appropriations for the current and contin- •gent expenses of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, for fulfilling treaty stipulations with various Indian tribes, and for other purposes, for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1915, otherwise known as the Indian appropriation bill. The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m. pursuant to the call of the chairman. Present: Senators Myers, Lane, Robinson, Thompson, Owen, Clapp, La Follette, Page, Gronna, Townsend, and Ashurst (chairman). Plon. Cato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, thereupon ad- dressed the committee, stating that he had made a suggestion to the House committee that in place of taking up the bill item by item, regardless of the subject matter, that the bill was there presented by subjects. For example, before the House committee it was suggested and followed that the matter of industrial topics be taken up first, and the appropriations generally for industrial purposes were first consid- ered, then school matters, and other topics as they are reached as such regardless of the particular State of tThe United States they apply to and include all matters generally, and thus there would be one subject before the committee at a time, and the commissioner said he would have his employees from the office who are particular conver- sant with industrial matters here aU at once, at the committee's call, when that topic is discussed, rather than to send for these folk now and then, and thus his force would be giving the best service of which they are capable. Mr. Sells further stated that he would take to his office all of the printed bills before the committee, together with copies of the hearing before the House Committee, and he agreed to index and annotate the entire biU as received from the printer from the minutes of the hearings before the House Committee, so that the committee mem- bers would not be under the necessity of laboriously performing this task individually, and for the purpose of uniformity and correct pre- sentation of the bill, data, and hearings; and the commissioner stated that he would present the full and complete annotated biUs, 15 in number, at the adjourned meeting to-morrow, March 13, 1914, at 10.30 a. m. That further the House hearings were to be correctly indexed by that time, and indices provided each member of the committee for his aid and convenience in discussion of the bill. 4 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. Upon motion of Senator Owen, duly seconded, it was unanimously resolved that the calendar of the bills and amendments before the committee as compiled by the clerk should be printed, that the copy should be dehvered by the clerk of this committee to the printmg clerk of the Senate and that he be requested to furnish completed and printed copy thereof by to-morrow morning at 10.30. Ihis resolution was unanimously adopted. Upon motion of Senator Thompson the committee adjourned to meet on to-morrow at 10.30 a. m, raiDAY, MARCH 13, 1914. « The committee met, pursuant to adjournment. Present: Senators La FoUette, Townsend, Page, Gronna, Lane, Robinson, Thompson, Owen, Fall, and the chairman. Mr. Sells addressed the committee at length, outhning the plan which should be adopted, according to his view, as the procedure of the committee in consideration of the bill. Upon consideration of item No. 9 m the printed bill, on page 8, Hne 21, the figures ''$400,000" were stricken out and that the figures ''$500,000'' substituted therefor. This motion made by Senator Robinson. So, when the bill be reported it shall read in respect of this item as follows: To conduct experiments on Indian school or agency farms designed to test the possibilities of soil and climate in the cultivation of trees, grains, vegetables, and fruits, for the purposes of preserving living and growing timber on Indian reservations and allotments, and to advise the Indians as to the proper care of forests; for the employ- ment of suitable persons as matrons to teach Indian women and girls housekeeping and other household duties, and for furnishing necessary equipments and supplies and renting quarters for them where necessary; for the employment of practical farmers and stockmen, in addition to the agency and school farmers now employed; and to superintend and direct farming and stofck raising among Indians, $500,000: Provided, That the foregoing shall not, as to timber, apply to the Menominee Indian Reservation in Wisconsin: Provided further , That not to exceed $5,000 of the amount herein appro- priated may be used to conduct exi)eriments on Indian school or agency farms to test the possibilities of soil and chmate in the cultivation of trees, grains, vegetables, and fruits: Provided also, That the amounts paid to matrons, foresters, farmers, and stock- men herein provided for shall not be included within the limitation on salaries and compensation of employees contained in the act of August twenty -fourth, nineteen hundred And twelve. Mr. Meritt justified this item thoroughly, and in addition invited attention to the justification appearing in the hear'ngs before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows : Industrial work and care of timber. Fiscal year ended June 30, 1913: Amount appropriated $400, 000. 00 Amount expended 352, 554. 45 Unexpended balance 47 445. 55 Known obligations unpaid $4^ I89. 93 Additional unpaid obhgations estimated 2, 500, 00 '■ — 6, 689. 93 Total unused balance 40 755 §2 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 5 Analysis of expenditures, 191$. On account of farmers and stockman: Salaries and wages $189, 983. 89 Traveling expenses 10, 076. 17 Equipment, incidentals, etc 7,' 758. 18 207, 818. 24 On account of field matrons: Salaries and wages. 35, 541. 17 Traveling expenses 542. 00 Equipment, incidentals, etc 3, 528. 66 / ■ 39, 611. 83 On account of forestry: Salaries, wages, etc 85, 649. 12 Traveling expenses 8, 130. 53 Construction, repairs, etc 821. 03 Equipment, incidentals, etc : 6, 307. 36 100, 908. 03 On account of experimentation: Salaries, wages, etc 2, 265. 94 Construction, repairs, etc 1, 239. 05 Equipment, incidentals, etc 711. 36 4, 216. 35 Grand total 352, 554. 45 In explanation of the large unused balance, it is pointed out that the two pri- rnary purposes of the appropriation are salaries of employees and protection to timber. The usages obtaining have required that the portions allotted for salaries must not at any time be exceeded by the aggregate of all established positions. As it is impossible to keep all established positions filled by regular' appointees, and as it is frequently impossible to employ temporarily for the outlying places where the isolation is fre(juently extreme, it follows that many small savings accrue at the different agencies. These savings can not be utilized to establish other regular posi- tions; hence serve to increase the unused balance at the close of the fiscal year. After establishing a sufficient number of men under the various jurisdictions to supervise timber operations and serve as guards and rangers, the greatest pro- tection to the many reservation forests is accomplished by holding in reserve an emergency fund sufficient to employ large numbers of men to fight fires in event of any extensive conflagrations. If the conflagrations fail to occur or are prevented by the regular force on duty this reserve fund remains unused to the close of the fiscal year. Every endeavor will be made to use as large a portion of this appropriation as it is safe to hypothecate, but it must be understood that the close of each fiscal year will find a considerable portion unused. • Fiscal year ending June 30, 1914, amount appropriated $400, 000. 00 To facilitate the proper utilization of this appropriation it is divided into 4 general apportionments, as follows: Agriculture and live stock • 225, 000. 00 Field matron service 50, 000. 00 Forest Service 120,000.00 Experimentation 5, 000. 00 6 INDIAN APPEOPKIATION BILL. Analysis of apportionment to Oct. 24, 1913. . . 1, ,y , , $216,759.04 Agriculture and live stock 3 240, 96 Reserve ' 225, 000. 00 T^. 1 , , 48,890.42 Field matrons i t nn co Resei-ve ^' ^^^' ^^ 50,000.00 Forestry "^KI Resei-ve ^^' "^^- ^' *- 120,000.00 Experimentation - 3, 900. 00 Reserve 1, 100. 00 5. 000. 00 Total apportioned 371, 490. 99 Total reserves 28, 509. 01 400, 000. 00 Each of these general apportionments is justified separately. Agriculture and live stock. For the employment of practical farmers and stockmen in addition to the agency and school farmers now employed, and to superintend and direct farming and stock raising among Indians: Amount apportioned for this service $225, 000. 00 This fund is used almost entirely in the employment of farmers and stockmen to work among the adult Indians and m the employment of men to superintend this part of the service, but is used in part to equip farmers and stockmen with teams and vehicles where there is no other fund available through which such equipment can be purchased and maintained. The amount apportioned, as set forth just above, is hypothecated for the fiscal year 1914, as follows: "For the employment of 1 supervisor of farming, at $3,000 per annum, with $3 per diem in lieu of board and lodging and traveling expenses. . $5, 000. 00 1 superintendent of live stock, at $2,000 per annum, with $2.50 per diem in lieu of board and lodging and traveling expenses 4, 000. 00 Total for supervision 9, 000. 00 1 farmer 1, 500. 00 2 farmers, at $1,400 per annum each 2, 800. 00 38 farmers, at $1,200 per annum each 45, 600. 00 2 farmers, at $1,100 per annum each 2, 200. 00 1 farmer ". 1^ 080. 00 11 farmers, at $1,000 per annum each 11, 000. 00 67 farmers, at $900 per annum each 60- 300. 00 18 farmers, at $840 per annum each ' 15' 120 00 if^i"mer .*;;;;; '8oo.'oo 23 farmers, at $780 per annum each yi 940. 00 27 farmers, at $720 per annum each 19' 440! 00 2 farmers, at $660 per annum each ^ ^ 320 00 2 farmers, at $600 per annum each " " ' ^ 200 00 2 farmers, at $540 per annum each \\ -i ' qdq' q^ 3 farmers, at $300 per annum each ' q^^^' nn 4 stockmen, at $1,200 each . onnna 1 stockman ::::::::;:;■ t'osooo ^^^--^^--- ; I'olaoS INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 7 1 stockman , |1, 000. 00 4 stockmen, at $900 each 3, 600. 00 1 stockman 800. 00 1 stockman 780. 00 1 stockman 720. 00 Total for 200 farmers and 14 stockmen 196, 080. 00 Apportioned for traveling expenses or equipment for traveling of farmers and stockmen 20, 679. 04 Unhypothecated balance 8, 240. 98 Grand total 225, 000. 00 The farmers employed are stationed on the various reservations in such manner as to bring them m the most convenient proximity to the homes and activities of the adult Indians. Their duties are primarily to instruct the Indians in all lines of agriculture, the breeding, care, marketing, etc., of their live stock, the laying out of their farms and grazing areas to the best advantage, the building and equipment of their homes, and where they engage in other lines of activities, such as common labor, fishing, lumbering, etc., to aid and instruct them along these lines, with the view of promoting their civilization and self-support. As many of the reservations cover immense territory, and include Indian popula- tions anywhere up to 10,000 souls, it is necessary for these farmers to become adminis- trative representatives of the superintendents in charge of such reservations, over- seeing all the industrial activities of their respective districts, directing the opera- tions of the police and such minor employees as may be stationed within their dis- tricts, and where the Indians are allotted to view all allotments for purposes of leas- ing, sale, patenting, etc. Where the Indians have individual Indian moneys in bank, the supervision of these moneys, the purchase of live stock in large quantities, the purchase of material for and the construction of houses, barns, fences, etc., all devolve on the farmer having charge of the particular district wherein these activities are in progress. Where the Indians cultivate irrio;ated lands, the farmers are charged with the use of the waters in whole or in part, the instruction of the Indians in the use of waters for irrigating purposes and what crops are best and most profitable for them to grow,. and all the other details pertaining to farming operations in an irrigated country. Where Indians are allotted, it is estimated that one farmer can adequately super- vise a district comprising 250 to 500 persons, or from 50 to 100 families. Such num- bers will admit of giving personal and individual supervision to each family, and, in addition, he can attend to the administrative affairs of his district, view the lands, supervise construction work, etc. Where the numbers much exceed those set forth above, it is impossible for the farmer to give personal supervision to the activities of the Indians of his district. If they greatly exceed those given above his time is about wholly taken up in administrative work, viewing of lands, etc., which, by reason of their urgency, compels giving them preference over instruction and super- vision, duties for which the farmer is primarily employed. Of the 200 farmers employed from this fund 12 are stationed among the Five Civil- ized Tribes, leaving 188 to be distributed throughout the service at large, exclusive of the Five Civilized Tribes. There are 40 farmers paid from other funds, making a total number of 228 farmers for an -Indian population of 229,387, or an average of one farmer to about 900 Indians. As it is necessary to employ farmers for reservations where only a few hundred Indians live, and as it is frequently necessary to district reservations so that they number much less than the above-named average, it necessarily follows that in some districts there are as many as 1,500 to 2,000 allotted Indians, or on unallotted reser- vations from 2,000 to 3,000 per district. The exigencies now existing will be more fully understood by the following recital of actual conditions: At Fort Yuma,-Cal., with an allotted population of 803, and with 8,010 acres of land now under irrigation, and where the Indians are yet in a very backward state, there is now employed one farmer at $1,000 per annum. To properly handle this jurisdic- tion and instruct the Indians as they should be instructed, there should be one more farmer stationed in their midst. Among the Mission Indians of southern California it is frequently necessary to assign to one farmer two or more small reservations so situated that the farmer will have to spend much of his time in traveling from one reservation to another. At Round Valley Reservation, Cal., with an allotted Indian population of 1,342, many of whom are located many miles from the reservation, 1 farmer is employed, at a salary of $720 per annum. 8 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. At Crow Reservation, Mont., with an allotted Indian population of 1,731 persons, where there are over 150,000 acres of irrigable land, much of which is now under completed projects and ready for cultivation, and where the Indians have many thou- sand dollars' worth of live stock to be cared for and where leasing, patenting, and sale of allotted lands are all in progress, there are 5 farmers employed, 2 at $900 per annum each, 1 at 1800, and 2 at $780 each. At Colorado River Reservation, Ariz., with an Indian population of 506 persons, with an irrigable area of about 100,000 acres, of which 12,000 are now under ditch and where the cost up to June 30, 1912, aggregated $170,896.72, there is one farmer em- ployed at $900 per annum. At Pima Reservation, with an Indian population of 5,996 persons, with an irrigable area of over 15,000 acres, 6,000 of which are now under constructed projects and where the cost up to June 30, 1912, aggregated $542,987.34, there are 6 farmers employed. This makes an average of about 1,000 Indians to each farmer. In the district com- prising most of the irrigated land, and where 700 or 800 Indians live, their entire" industrial education, activities, etc., must be supervised by 1 man. At Fort Mojave Reservation, Ariz., with an allotted Indian population of 844 per- sons, comprising an irrigable area of 15,945 acres, where the Indians are very primitive, know but little of agriculture, the use of agricultural implements, the distribution of water, etc., and where the large majority of them have no homes, fences, etc., there is now employed 1 farmer at $1,000 per annum. At the Navajo Agency, Fort Defiance, Ariz., with an Indian population of about 10,000 persons, most of whom are yet living as they have lived for hundreds of years and where there are many thousands of the old native breeds of live stock of little or no worth, it is necessary to form districts comprising from 2,000 to 3,000 Indians, and still there are some only nominally under farmer supervision. At the Fort Bidwell School, Cal., with a scattering and detached Indian population of 700 to 1,000 persons, who live in various points in northeastern California and in adjacent portions of Nevada and Oregon, 1 farmer is employed at $780 per annum. There are several hundred Indians in the States just named whose industrial activities ■are in no way supervised by the Government. At the Fort Peck Reservation, Mont., with an Indian population of 1,857 persons, who have been allotted 71,000 acres of irrigable land and several times that amount of dry farming and grazing lands, and where irrigation systems have been projected to cover aU of the 71,000 acres of allotted lands and about an equal amount of unallotted lands, and where the cost to June 30, 1912, aggregated about $200,000, there are now employed 3 farmers. The administrative duties, the viewing of the lands, etc., occupy about all the time of these men, leaving only a very small portion which they can apply to the instruction of their Indians. To properly handle this jurisdiction, about 40 by 100 miles, there should be 3 more men on duty, adding others as the irri- gation progresses. _ In the State of Nevada, with seven separate jurisdictions with an enrolled popula- tion of 2,573 Indians and an unenroUed population of a greater number, with 9,671 acres of irrigable land, there are now employed 5 farmers. The Pueblo jurisdictions, Santa Fe and Albuquerque, N. Mex., number about 8,000 Indians. These are scattered over a great portion of the State, and for this entire population there are but 4 farmers employed. At Zuni, N. Mex., with an Indian population of 1,589 persons, where there is an irrigable area of 37,110 acres, of which 7,000 acres are now under ditch, costing up to June 30, 1912, $461,241.46, there are 2 farmers employed. At the Kiowa Agency, Okla., with an allotted Indian population of 4,177 persons, and where there are now over 3,000 leases running, there are employed 6 farmers, 4 at the rate of $780 per annum and 2 at $900 per annum. At Osage, Okla., with an Indian population of 2,056 persons, and where recent effort to interest them industrially has met with such success as to inspire much hope for the ^ future, no farmers are now employed. At Pine Ridge Agency, with 7,000 allottees, a territory 50 by 120 mUes, allotted almost solidly, there are employed 6 fanners, 5 at $900 per annum and 1 at $720. Arrangements have been made for the early assignment of 2 more men to this jurisdic- tion It will take about all the time of these 8 men to keep up the administrative work, maintain discipline, etc. At the Yakima Reservation, Wash., with an Indian population of 3,046 persons, where there is an irrigable area of 173,000 acres, of which 62,840 acres are now under the various projects, costing up to June 30, 1912, $510,651.42, 3 farmers are employed. bimilar conditions exist on various other Indian reservations, quite sufficient to demonstrate that the number of farmers now employed, or which it is possible to employ from funds available, is wholly inadequate to care for the Indian popula- INDIAK APPROPRIATION BILL. 9 tion, iiiBtruct them in matters of agriculture, the use of water for irrigation, the breed- ing, care, etc., of live stock, the building of homes, and to supervise their business affairs. It is found that on a large number of the reservations the available force of farmers is such that virtually all their time is taken up in their administrative work, the viewing of lands, and the supervision of the use of individual Indian moneys, leaving little or no time to devote to tne duties for which they are primarily employed. As there is no way of relieving them of these duties, the only way whereby the Gov- ernment can extend to the Indians that degree of instruction and supervision to which they are entitled is by increasing the number of farmers until the sizes of the districts and the population therein are so reduced as to enable each farmer to give personal supervision to each family under his charge. To do this it is estimated that from 75 to 100 additional men should be employed and assigned to duty as fast as equipment for their use and quarters for theii' accommodation can be provided. The duties of farmers for the Indian service as set forth above, are quite different from the duties required of these men a few years back. Within the last 5 to 10 years the Indian Service has become one very largely of individualized interests, and the administering of the laws relating to leases, sales, and patenting of allotted lands and the supervision of the moneys derived therefrom have added manyfold to the details of reservation work. In many instances these duties involve recommenda- tions covering large acreages of valuable lands, and where the jurisdictions are large the superintendent must rely very largely on the judgment of his district repre- sentatives. This calls for men of large experience and broad judgment in real estate value's and business affairs and men of unquestioned integrity. It will be noted that of the 200 farmers now employed, 18 are paid $840 per annum, one $800 per annum, twenty-three $780 per annum, twenty-seven $720 per annum, and nine at still lower ratings. A few of these serve for the most part as assistants to others of a higher rating, and in some cases they operate immediately under the jurisdiction of the superintendents. But of those paid $720 and up, the gi'eater num- ber are assigned to districts and must assume the duties set forth above. Men whose services can be commanded for salaries such as stated above are frequently found wanting in many of the qualifications and attributes necessary to achieve success.. They are usually dissatisfied, seeking transfers and promotions, and fi'equently the better ones retire from the service to enter other activities with better remuneration. In addition to the 14 stockmen employed from this fund, as shown by the list submitted above, there are 25 similar employees paid from other funds. Many of these stockmen are merely Indian helpers, hence the actual number of stockmen em- ployed to supervise the live-stock industry and to instruct the Indians is much less than the whole number given above. The Indians, exclusive of the Five Civilized Tribes, own about 8,500,000 of allotted and 20,000,000 acres of unallotted grazing lands. They also own, according to the latest statistics, 689,447 heads of horses, mares, and stallions of an average value of $22.50 per head; 228,214 cows, heifers, bulls, and steers of an average value of $24.95 per head; 1,451,309 sheep of an average value of $1.87 per head; and over 300,000 goats, 20,000 burros, 7,000 mules, and 33,000 swine not statistically valuable. The low average values are indicative of the geneml grade of this live stock. By far the greater portion is made up of the native Indian ponies, cattle, and sheep on the desert ranges of the Southwest, which have their origin one or two hundred years back. Inbreeding has been the rule and selection has been made through ignorance instead of intelligence, until some of the flocks and herds of to-day are of such low value as to be a pest to the range instead of an income to the tribes. In other portions of the Indian country where upbreeding is in progress, there are now a reasonable number of fairly good grade horses and mares, many herds of well- bred cattle, but a very limited number of graded sheep. Many of the reservation ranges are now occupied by the live stock of lessees, for which the tribes receive only a rental income. In some instances it will be possible to stock these ranges, in whole or in part, with live stock purchased from Indian moneys, either tribal or individual. The task of classifying these reservation ranges and the thousands of live stock thereon, the upbreeding of this live stock, and the purchase of additional stock and putting it on the ranges is one of such immensity as to call for a largely increased force of stockmen and for a few men of such high intelligence and technical training as to be able to supervise the work properly and to expend the Indian moneys in such way as wiUgive no cause for criticism, and such as will command the respect of the tribes. Where farmers are stationed among the Indians under the district system, it is nec- essary to provide them with teams, harness, vehicles, forage, etc., to enable them to go about among their Indians and discharge the duties set forth above. In some places this equipment and its maintenance can be provided for from other funds. In many instances, however, there are no other funds available; consequently, they must be equipped from this fund. 10 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. From a practical business viewpoint it it believed to be a matter ol ^^^ . ^ , increase the force of farmers and stockmen. By so doing the production a"";^ "'J^" put of the tribes can be so increased that the saving in rations and otner suppuiws will quite exceed the increase of ^100,000 asked for herein. ^^m^n cinH "For the employment of suitable persons as matrons to teach In^^^^^,^^^^^^ 1?^ girls housekeeping and other household duties, to instruct in methods oiproper giv- ing and in care of sick, to assist physicians in prevention of diseases, ana lor lurnisn- ing necessary equipments and supplies and renting quarters for them wnere nec- essary, $62,500." . • -• 1 There are at present 74 field matrons employed under this appropriation wlio may be classified to a certain extent in accordance with the salary received, inis clas- sification is as follows : Number. Salaries. Unit. Total. 3 3 27 7 10 20 2 2 $840 780 720 660 600 300 180 150 $2, 520 2,340 19, 620 4,620 6,000 6,000 360 300 74 1 564. 32 41,760 i Average. All matrons— -50 in number — who receive $600 or more, devote their entire time to the work, while the remaining 24, who are paid $300 or less, are only employed for half their time, the average salary received being $564.32. While the work outlined for the field matrons forms a very essential and necessary part of the campaign to improve the sanitary and health conditions among the Indians and to teach them proper methods of living, the amount appropriated in the pasr has been insufficient to properly equip them, to give them adequate transportation facilities, or to enable all of them to visit the Indians under their charge. Although 74 matrons are employed, there are but 25 horses and 9 buggies supplied them for their exclusive use; 10 additional horses and 6 additional buggies are shared by the field matrons with others and in doing work upon the reservations. The money available has also been insufficient to pay salaries large enough to attract the best class of properly equipped women to do the work or to employ as many field matrons as are urgently needed. An increase in the apportionment from the $50,000 allowed in 1914 to $62,500 is asked for in order that better transportation facilities may be furnished, better equip- ment and quarters provided, and whole-time matrons employed wherever possible in place of those who are only serving for half their time. It is hoped also that the average salary paid may be increased so as to attract more competent women to the work. The following is the analysis of the apportionment for 1914, taken Noveml)er 11, ■ 1913: Salaries of 74 field matrons, at average $564.32 $41, 760. 00 Rent of quarters (9) $1, 248. 00 Traveling expenses 400. 00 Annual estimale supplies 1, 479. 54 '- 3, 127. 54 Reserve 5, 112. 46 Total apportionment 50 000. 00 Note. — Four thousand one hunderd and forty-two dollars and forty-six cents of the above reserve has already been apportioned for expenses in connection with the work, leaving only, on November 11, 1913, $970. It is proposed to expend the amount asked for along the same general lines as indi- cated in the above table. INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. 11 Salaries at large to be paid from ''Industrial work and care of timber, forestry, 1914-^^ Position. 1 lumberman 1 supervisor of forests 1 littntierman Bo 1 deputy supervisor of forests 13,500 Per diem Total Salary. and apportion- expenses. ment. 1 82, 750 $1,850 $4,600 12,250 1,850 4,100 12,000 1,850 3,850 2 2, 250 800 3,050 2 2, 250 800 3,050 2 2, 000 800 2,800 7,950 21,450 1 Actual necessary traveling expenses, including sleeping-car fare and incidentals, and a per diem of $3 in lieu of subsistence when actually employed on duty in the field. 2 Actual necessary traveling expenses, mcluding sleeping-car fare, incidentals, and subsistence when actually employed on duty in the field. Salaries under agencies to be paid from ''Industrial work and care of timber, forestry, 1914.'' Reservation. Coeur d'Alene forest guard . . Colorado River forest guards . Colville forest guards Crow forest guards Cushman forest guards Flathead: Forest guards Deputy supervisor of forests Fond du Lac forest guards Fort Apache deputy supervisor of forests. Fort Lapwai: Ranger Forest guards Grand Portage forest guards Hayward; Scaler Forest guards Hoopa Valley forest guards Jicarilla: Deputy supervisor of forests. Forest guards . Klamath: Deputy supervisor of forests. Forest guard Lac du Flambeau: Forest guards Scaler La Pointe forest guards Leech Lake: Overseer Forest guards Do : Mescalero: Forest ranger Forest guard Navajo: Deputy supervisor of forests. Forest guards Nett Lake forest guards Pechanga forest guard Pine Ridge forest guard — Red Cliff forest guard Round Valley forest guard. Santa Fe forest guard"^ Num- ber. Number of months. 10 6 5 12 4 4 12 12 12 75 90 5 12 75 6 12 50 12 12 12 12 5 12 50 90 50 12 12 6 12 12 6 12 6 12 12 6 12 6 12 6 6 8 12 12 12 12 8 Salary per month. $75 75 75 50 75 75 75 75 50 50 '76' 75 50 75 50 40 75 75 60 75 75 75 Total salary. $750 900 2,625 1,000 400 900 900 2,160 1,800 1,500 1,600 600 1,300 1,100 1,920 1,200 1,080 500 1,000 900 11,300 1,800 1,500 1 1,500 1,000 900 1,200 1,680 900 900 900 1,000 450 11,400 900 480 600 900 720 900 900 600 \ Salary of all em- ployees. $750 900 3,625 400 900 1 7,960 600 11,300 3,020 1,200 1,580 1,900 4,600 2,500 2,100 1,680 2,700 1,450 2,300 480 600 1,620 900 900 600 Expenses. $200 200 200 200 200 1 And actual necessary traveling expenses, including sleeping-car fare, incidentals, and subsistence when actually employed on duty off the reservation, not exceeding $200 to be expended for this purpose. 12 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Salaries unde)' agencies to be paid from ''Industrial worlc and care of timber, forestry; 1914''— Continued. Reservation. Shoshone forest guards . Slletz forest guards Soboba forest guard Spokane forest guards. . Tongue River forest guards Tulalip forest guard Tule River forest guard Uintah and Ouray forest guards . Umatilla forest guard Warm Springs forest guards Western Navajo forest guard ^Vhite Earth forest guards . Yakima: Deputy supervisor of forests . Forest guards Expenses . Total Num' ber. 120 Nunaber of months. 12 5 2 12 12 5 12 12 12 12 12 3 12 4 12 12 12 12 2 2 12 5 Salary per month. ?75 75 65 75 75 100 75 75 30 75 75 125 100 75 50 50 80 Total salary. I $1,000 1 1, 125 450 780 1,000 750 1,000 900 2 1, 200 •900 900 180 1,000 2,100 900 3 1, 500 8 1,200 900 400 200 < 1,400 2,400 68, 750 Salary of allem- ploj^ees. S2, 125 450 780 } 1,750 1,900 1,200 900 ■ 1,080 1,000 2,100 900 4,200 3,800 68, 750 2,100 70,850 Expenses. $700 200 200 2,100 1 And $2 per diem in lieu of subsistence when on duty. 2 And actual necessary traveling expenses, including sleeping-car fare, incidentals, and subsistence when actually on duty off the reservation. 3 With actual necessary traveling expenses, including incidentals and subsistence when actually em- ployed on duty in the field. * And actual necessary traveling expenses, including sleeping-car fare, incidentals, and subsistence when actually employed on duty off the reservation, not exceeding $200 to be expended for this purpose. The following amounts were apportioned to the agencies listed for general forestry- work duiin.^ the fiscal year 1914, including labor and materails for road, trail, and tele- phone repair, and for fire fighting and timber estimating: Chippewa of Lake Superior $500 Colville , 500 Cushman 500 Flathead 500 Fond du lac 300 Fort Apache 500 Grand Portage ^ 400 Hoopa Valley 500 Hayward 400 Jicarilla .' 500 Klamath 500 Lac du Flambeau 300 Leece Lake 500 Mescalero 200 Nett Lake 300 Red Lake 400 Round Valley 200 Roseburg * ... 1, 080 San Carlos 200 Siletz 200 Spokane 200 Tnixton Canon 100 Tulalip '.;;;;!;;!;;;;;;;;;; 1, 200 Tule River 100 Uintah 200 Warm Springs - V-W^.W.. ..'.....'. 500 White Earth 500 Yakima <: ^qq Tot^l 11, 780 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 13 The preceding table shows the apportionments as made for the fiscal year 1914, except that the amount credited to Grand Portage has been doubled and all of the Flathead expense has been transferred to" ''Industrial work and care of timber" for the reason that the special appropria,tion ''Sawmills, etc., Flathead " will not be avail- able next year. The total amount of these apportionments is $104,080. During the fiscal year 1914 it will probably be necessary to employ a forest assistant for the Quinaielt Reservation under the Cushman School and one at Hoopa Valley, at about $1,400 each. The amount apportioned the present year to the different schools for fire fighting and general repair work has had to be increased in certain cases to meet imperative needs. Warm Springs was given $700; Colville, $400; Tongue River, $300 additional; and other schools smaller amounts. It is expected that large allow- ances will be needed for Quinaielt, Hoopa Valley, and Roseburg for timber examina- tion during the year 1914. It is believedt that the absolute needs for salaries, expenses, equipment, and current repairs to telephone lines, cabins, fences, etc.. Will amount to at least $115,000 in 1914. The reports of the superintendents for the year ending June 30, 1913, show needs as follows: Trails, $37,675; fire lines, $42,345; telephone lines, $33,100; fences, $51,840; lookout stations, $2,570; cabins, $6,675; stables, $2,625; corrals, $845; roads, $313,600. All of these permanent improvements except the roads are specially necessary for forest protection, and the expense connected 'with work of this character has hereto- fore and will continue to be charged against the forestry appropriation. If is essential that a rather large reserve be maintained in the forestry fund to meet contingencies in the form of forest fires. However, in proportion as trails, fire lines, telephones, and lookouts are established, the yearly reserve for special expense can be reduced. The total for permanent improvements listed above, exclusive of roads, is $177,675. Each year a portion of this work should be done. As the regular current running expenses next year will be about $115,000, an appropriation of $150,000 should be made for forestry work. This will give only $35,000 as a contingent fire-fighting fund and for permanent improvements. Experimentation . Amount authorized for 1914 $5, 000. 00 Amount authorized for 1913 5, 000. 00 Amount expended for fiscal year 1913 4, 216. 35 To conduct experiments on Indian school or agency farms designed to test the possibilities of soil and climate in the cultivation of trees, grains, vegetables, and fruits, : Provided further, That not to exceed $5,000 of the amount herein appro- priated may be used to conduct experiments on Indian school or agency farms to test the possibilities of soil and climate in the cultivation of trees, grains, vegetables, and fruits. The much greater portion of this fund is used in connection with the experiment farm maintained at Sacaton, Ariz., on the Pima Reservation. This is a joint project between the Indian Bureau and the Bureau of Plant Industry of the Agricultural Department, and is presided over by a man in the employ and under the direction of the Bureau of Plant Industry. The success attending this project has been such as to justify its continuance, and it is largely with that in view that this appropriation is asked for again. In this con- nection, however, it is explained that while the benefits derived from the experi- ments carried on at this place go first to the Indians of that reservation, they are by no means thus confined, but are extended to the Indians of the various reservations throughout the Southwest and to the white population all through that portion of the country. There are now many white citizens taking advantage of these experi- ments. Among the results coming from this project is the development of a grade of cotton that can be successfully grown in the extreme warm cUmates, which is probably unexcelled in any part of the world. It usually commands a premium in excess of the highest market prices. It is being grown very largely by white farmers throughout that region. Very commendable successes have been achieved in the development of various classes of alfalfa, onions, tropical fruits, etc., some of which would, singly, Justify the funds expended in this undertaking. Senator Sutherland at this time presented a communication, from one of the commissioners of Box Elder County, Utah, stating that it had heretofore been presented to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs; 14 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. it seems that in the past years the Federal Government has been pay- ing tuition of Indian children in that county, and a ruling has recently been made by the auditor that they are not warranted m contmumg . the payment. Now, these Indians are members of the bnosnone Tribe, and they are settled in some of the choicest lands m tJie val- ley, holding them without taxation, and are not contnbutmg revenue to the county. It was agreed by the committee that the communi- cation submitted by him would be referred to the Indian Bureau tor action immediately. • ^ n • j j Upon motion of Senator Robinson, item 9, herembetore copied, and item 18 (see pp. 8 and 11 of printed bill), were passed for the present. Senator Ashurst addressed the committee respecting the item 40, omitted from House bill, stating that it had reference to Camp Verde Apaches, who were at one time on the San Carlos Reserva- tion, having been isolated there after going on the warpath from the locahty now in question, and succeeded in straggling away froni the San Carlos, and have located back on the Verde Valley. Said item reads as follows: For the purchase of lands for the use and benefit of Indians under the jurisdiction of the superintendent of the Camp Verde Indian School, Ariz., 120,000, to be imme- diately available and to remain available until expended: Provided, That the lands purchased for said Indians shall be held in trust and be subject to the provisions of the general allotment act of February 8, 1887 (24 Stat. L., p. 388), as amended. Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justification appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: The records of the OflSce of Indian Affairs show that the Indians under the super- vision of the superintendent of the Camp Verde Indian School, Arizona, are m a deplorable condition. There are no Indian lands or reservation belonging to these Indians, and none of them are allotted even on the public domain. Their original home was in the Verde , Valley until they were sent to San Carlos as prisoners of war, and when upon being released they returned to their home, they found all of the land suitable for anyone to live on had been taken up by white settlers. They have no rights on any other reservations. These Indians are scattered from Camp Verde, west 42 miles to Prescott, north 25 miles to Jerome, southwest 40 miles to Mayer, and northeast 10 miles to Beaver Creek. There are 417 of these Indians, mostly full bloods, none of whom live in permanent houses, but exist in tents, tepees, and shacks erected in waste places and eke out a precarious existence as best they can. That they are willing to work, if given a chance, is shown by the efforts of those who have been permitted to cultivate a few acres of land belonging to the Camp Verde Indian School, and it is proposed to purchase one ot two tracts of land ana locate these Indians thereon, giving them an opportuijity to erect homes and raise sufficient produce for their own use. It is estimated that the amount asked for, if allowed, would mean $47.96 per capita, or approximately $160 per family, thus enabling each family to have 2 acres of land to cultivate and on which to erect a home. This estimate is based on the prevailing cost of lands in the Camp Verde Valley. The Indian population under the jurisdiction of the Camp Verde Indian School approximates 425. There is no "reservation" here for the benefit of these Indians, a small tract of land having been purchased for a day-school site in 1910, of which 18 acres only are irrigable. Upon motion of Mr. Gronna, the item was included in the bill. At this point Mr. Owen asked that the committee take up the bill (H. R. 13091) to provide for the drainage of Indian allotments of the Five Civilized Tribes in Oklahoma. This bill having been passed by the House on Alarch 2, 1914, it was favorably reported by the com- mittee and the bill was assigned to Mr. Owen for a report thereon INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 15 Whereupon the discussion of H. R. 12579 was resumed. Upon motion of Senator Gronna, item No. 41, on page 344 of the hearings before the House committee, was inserted in the bill as paragraph 19 thereof and reads as follows: There is hereby appropriated the sum of $50,000, to be immediately available and to remain available until expended, and the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to use this money, or so much thereof as may be necessary, under such regulations as he may prescribe, for the promotion of civilization and self-support among the Indians residing and having tribal rights on the Colorado River and Yuma Reservations, the said sum to be expended in the purchase of seed, live stock, vehicles, harness, machinery, tools, implements, and other agricultural equipment; for the construction of houses for said Indians, and for such other purposes as the Secretary of the Interior may deem proper in promoting their civilization and self-support: Provided, That said sum shall be expended under conditions to be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior for its repayment to the United States on or before June 30, 1925, and all repayments to this fund made on or before June 30, 1924, are hereby reappropriated for the same purpose as the original fund, and the entire fund, including such repay- ments, shall remain available until June 30, 1924; and all repayments to the fund hereby created which shall be made subsequent to June 30, 1924, shall be covered into the Treasury, and shall not be withdrawn or applied except in consequence of a subsequent appropriation made by law. Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justifi- cation appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on fndian Affairs, reading in part as, follows : Statistics, Colorado River Reservation. Indian population 486 Acreage of reservation area 240, 640 Acreage of agricultural land 100, 160 Acreage of grazing land 85, 000 Acreage allotted lands 4, 860 Acreage under ditch 4, 860 Acreage cultivated by Indians. . 638 Acreage irrigated : . 450 Live stock: Horses 210 Mares 225 Stallions, pony 31 Cows and heifers 143 Bulls 9 Steers 106 Statistics, Fort Yuma Agency. Live stock: Horses 20 Mares 260 Stallions, pony 190 Cows and heifers 80 Bulls : 4 Indian population 794 Acreage of reservation area 41, 861 Acreage of agricultural land 8, 090 Acreage of grazing land 21 , 000 Acreage allotted lands 8, 090 Acreage under ditch 3, 000 Acreage cultivated by Indians. . 211 Acreage irrigated 136 The industrial conditions as to these two tribes are so similar that one description will suffice for both. In each case they have very fine agricultural lands, allotted in small areas, and put under ditch and at considerable expense. The Indians are ex- ceedingly poor in each case, wholly unable to supply themselves with teams, imple- ments, seed, building and fencing materials, and unless aided in some way can not establish themselves on their allotments, make homes, and achieve self-support. What little live stock they have is of the lowest grade, their horse stock being nothing but ponies. . , • ,,. i i. These Indians have largely been self-supporting, but this self-support has been mostly as common laborers. There is every reason to believe that when provided with means of working their allotments and making homes thereon they will avail themselves of the opportunity, for they are accustomed to working for what they have. The purpose of the appropriation asked for is to provide them with the means to establish them on their allotments and cultivate them for their support. 16 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BIUL.. Statement of tribal assets and liabilities. 1 Unallotted lands: Agricultural . . Grazing Timber Mineral Other kinds... Acres. 95,300 70, 000 24,500 15,000 64,291 Timber, board feet, 46,500,000 Tribal funds in Tre9:sury June 30, 1913 (Doc. 328, 63d Cong., 2d sess.) , Reimbursable appropriations made to June 30, 1912. Expended to June 30, 1912 Reimbursed to United States Reimbursable to United States. Surplus 269,091 Value. $953,000.00 500,000.00 356,000.00 15,000.00 16,000.00 1,840,000.00 38,500.00 1,878,500.00 58,753.86 1,937,25*. I 88,000.00 81,097.65 11,748.59 69,349.06 1,867,904. These reservations were allotted under acts of June 17, 1902 (32 Stat. L., 388), April 21, 1904 (33 Stat. L., 224), April 30, 1908 (35 Stat. L., 77), and March 3, 1911 (36 Stat. L., 1063). No fiu-ther allotments will be ijaade on Fort Yuma Reservation. About 2,000 more Indians probably will be alloted 10 acres each on the Colorado River Reservation. The Colorado River Reservation, Arizona, was originally created by act of March 3 1865, comprising about 75,000 acres, added to by Executive order until it now em- braces 240,000 acres. Five hundred and ten Indians have been allotted 10 acres each of irrigable land. No authority to dispose of sui-plus other than under the rec- lamation act of June 17, 1902. As no reclamation project has been installed and funds are not at hand to construct such project it is not expected that any of these' surplus lands will be placed on the market under the reclamation act. Bills have been pending withm recent years to turn the surplus lands over to the State for dis- posal under the Carey Act. Practically the entire population on the Colorado River Reservation proper has been allotted, but the original reservation was created "for Indians of the Colorado River and its tributaries." This will give the right to allot- ment on this reservation to other Indians in the State of Arizona, approximately to the number of 2,000. ^^ ^ The Yuma Reservation was created by Executive order and comprised originally ^^^%^Sa^J^^ ^^^®^' ^^ ^^^^^ ^'^^^ ^^^^^ ^^ irrigable land had been allotted to 809 Indians and 7,700 acres of sm-plus irrigable land placed on the market under the reclamation act of June 17, 1902. With the consent of the Indians the surplus nonirrigable lands ? Q^^- ^^ Surplus 4,073,577.60 Entire reservation unallotted. No legislation pending to allot. The motion was unanimously adopted by the committee. Mr. Meritt explained item No. 81, which pjrovides for the purchase of implements for the Fort Peck (Mont.) Indians. Mr. Page inquheg as to how many years appropriations had been given to Fort reck. It was disclosed that this is what is called a "revolving appropria- tion/' and after discussion by Mr. Clapp and Mr. Townsend the motion was made to approve the item, so that it will appear in the bill as follows: ^ On page 20 of the printed biU insert item No. 81, as foUows: 'I There is hereby appropriated the sum of $100,000, to be immediately available and to remain available until expended, and the Secretary of the Interior is author- ized to use this money, or so much thereof as may be necessary, under such regula- tions as he may prescribe, for the promotion of civilization and self -support among the Indians residing and havbag tribal rights on the Fort Peck Reservation, Mon- tana, the said sum to be expended in the purchase of live stock, seed, vehicles, har- ness, machinery, tools, implements, and other agricultural equipment; for the con- struction of houses for said Indians, and for such other purposes as the Secretary of the Interior may deem proper in promoting their civilization and self-support: Pro- vided, That said sum shall be expended under conditions to be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior for its repayment to the United States on or before June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty-five, and all repayments to this fund made on or before June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty-four, are herebjr reappro- priated for the same purpose as the original fund, and the entire fund, including such repayments, shall remain available until June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty-four; and all repayments to the fund hereby created which shall be made subsequent to June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty-four, shall be covered into the Treasury and shall not be withdrawn or applied except in consequence of a subsequent appropriation made by law. Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justi- fication appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows : Statistical information. Indian population 1, 857 Acreage of reservation area 1, 774, 967 Acreage of agricultural land : Irrigable 142, OOO Nonirrigable 627, 668 Acreage of grazing land 1, 171, 582 Acreage allotted land : Irrigable 71, 000 Nonirrigable 212, 000 Grazing 424, 800 Timber 15, 893 723,693 Acreage under ditch, about 12 000 Acreage cultivated by Indians lo' 000 Irrigated, about ." .\ .....[[.. . '600 Not irrigated, about .\\] ..][..[ 94 OOO INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 21 Live stock : Horses 1 , 620 Mares 1, 750 Stallions : 28 Cows and heiiers 1, 920 Bulls 27 Steers 463 Sheep None. The Indians of this reservation in their primitive state were hunters and of more recent years have been stockmen. They have recently been allotted, and the surplus lands of the reservation are now being opened to homestead settlement. In prepara- tion for the change that must necessarily come to them through this opening they have for the last three or four years begun farming. During the year 1911 they cultivated 2,733 acres; in 1912, 8,346 acres; and in 1913, about 10,000 acres. ' It will be noted that diuing the last year they cultivated only about 600 acres of their lands under irrigation. This was the first year they had used water for irrigation purposes, and for the want of farm experience and for the more important needs of tools and appliances the amount was necessarily email. The purpose of this appropriation is to provide a fund whereby the Indians can be supplied with the necessary teams, implements, building material, fences, etc., to enable them to establish homes on their allotted lands, erect houses, build fences, put in wells, and begin the cultivation of the soil. It will be noted that they have 3,370 horses and mares of all ages. These would be hardly sufficient to furnish one work animal to the Individual of population even should all these be of suitable size and character to make work horses. As a matter of fact, only a minor portion of them are of such grade as can be used for farm purposes, consequently one of the first essentials is to provide one or more work teams for each able-bodied head of family. Inasmuch as they have heretofore done but very little farming, they now possess but a very limited supply of farming implements, building tools, etc., and only a limited number now have houses and barns adequate for home purposes. A few farm implements have been furnished them the last year or two, but as yet the supply is very inadequate. Some of the families will estabhsh their permanent homes on irrigated lands, but a considerable portion will make their homes on lands suited for dry farming. Those living on irrigated lands will have to be supplied with implements and tools of a proper character to operate these lands, and hkewise those attempting dry farming will need implements suited to that character of work. In some instances the Indians will want to fence their grazing lands and put stock thereon to operate in connection with their agricultural pursuits. At present the supply of live stock is entirely inadequate to utihze all of their lands, and the greater number of families now have nothing more than a few ponies. The purpose of this appropriation is to supply these several needs as far as possible, with a view of rendering the several famiUes self-supporting in their individual capacities in so far as it is possible to accomplish such. There has already been expended about $200,000 of money, reimbursable from tribal funds, in the construction of irrigation systems, aijd it is proposed that still further sums will be thus used in the future. Unless these Indians are provided with teams, implements, etc., to utilize these lands, it will be a manifest injustice to the tribe to thus use such large sums of their money, wMch they would be unable to profitably use. Statement of tribal assets and liabilities, Unallotted lands: Acres. Value. Agricultural 486, 668 $3, 063, 189. 00 Grazing 737,182 2,074,820.00 Mineral 119, 559 1, 793, 388. 00 1, 343, 409 6, 931, 397. 00 Tribal funds in Treasury June 30, 1913 (Doc. 328, 63d Cong., 2d sess.) 11,792.43 ^ ^ U, 943, 189. 43 22 INDIAN APPEOPPJATION BILL. Reimbursable appropriations made to June 30, 1912 $350,000 Expended to June 30, 1912 ^^^^' nni" nn Reimbursed to United States 133, 099. UU Reimbursable to United States $210, 452. 03 Surplus 6,732,737.40 Allotted under act of May 30, 1908 (35 Stat., 558). All Indians allotted. Timber on this reservation is suited only for firewood and rough work. Upon motion of Senator Robinson item No. 82 was incorporated in the bill on page 20 thereof, which reads as follows: There is hereby appropriated the sum of $100,000, to be immediately availabl? and to remain available until expended, and the Secretary of the Interior is author- ized to use this money, or so much thereof as may be necessary, under such regula- tions as he may prescribe, for the promotion of civilization and self-support among the Indians residing and having tribal rights on the Blackfeet Reservation, Montana; the said sum to be expended in the purchase of live stock, seed, vehicles, harness, machinery, tools, imi3lements, and other agricultural equipment; for the construction of houses for said Indians; and for such other purposes as the Secretary of the Interior nay deem proper in promoting their civilization and self-support: Provided^ That said sum shall be expended under conditions to be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior for its repayment to the United States on or before June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty-five, and all repayments to this fund made on or before June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty-four, are hereby reappropriated for the same purpose as the original fund, and the entire fund, including such repayments, shall remain available until June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty -four; and all repayments to the fund hereby created which shall be made subsequent to June thir- tieth, nineteen hundred and twenty -four, shall be covered into the Treasury and shall not be withdrawn or applied except in consequence of a subsequent appropriation made by law. Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justi- fication appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: Blackfeet Reservation, Mont. Indian population 2, 842 Acreage of reservation area 1, 503, 450 Acreage of agricultural land 644, 406 Acreage of grazing land 814, 454 Acreage allotted lands 881, 288 Acreage under irrigation projects 133, 000 Indian allotments * $40, 000 For homestead lands $93, 000 Acreage cultivated by Indians 5, 000 Live stock: Horses 2, 000 Mares '. 4, 000 Stallions 100 Cows and heifers 7, 200 Bulls 106 Steers 4, 800 Sheep 3, 600 About $600,000 has been expended on irrigation projects on this reservation, and still further funds will be required to complete them. These funds are reimbursable from the future sale of tribal lands. It will be noted from the statistics that these projects cover about 133,000 acres, 40,000 of which are allotted to Indians and the remainder, 93,000, is to be opened to homestead settlement. Under present legislation all future resources of the tribe are hypothecated for the reclaiming of the allotted lands and future homestead lands until there is nothing on hand or in sight to develop the Indians industrially and enable them to occupy INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILI , 23 and utilize the lands allotted to them. Not being agriculturists by former customs and habits, they are not provided with proper work teams, implements, seed, material for building houses, etc., and are consequently wholly unable to go upon their allotted lands, either irrigated or otherwise, make homes thereon, and cultivate them for their support. This reservation offers one of the finest live-stock opportunities still left, and even after the surplus lands are opened to homestead settlement the Indians will, many of them, depend upon the live-stock industry for their support. In addition to the 40,000 acres of irrigable land allotted, there are about 840,000 acres of land suitable for dry farming, grazing, etc. These Indians now own about 6,000 head of horses, 12,000 head of cattle,^ and 3,600 head of sheep. This is a fairly good supply under ordinary conditions for a tribe of this size, but it is by no means as much as the Indians could and should own with a view to consuming the grass on their reservation and what their allotments will produce in the future. This appropriation is asked for for the piu*pose of enabling such Indians as can and should build homes on their allotments and cultivate them for support to do so, and to aid such as have taken grazing lands for their allotments to provide themselves with the necessary live stock to operate them profitably for their support .- The irrigated lands are all fine soil, well adapted to the growth of alfalfa and tim- othy for forage purposes, to small grains, and all hardy vegetables for subsistence of the Indians. These Indians are said to be good workers, and there is every reason to believe that with funds sufficient to provide them with building material, imple- ments, etc., to occupy and cultivate their allotments, and with live stock to consume their surplus grass, that they should become prosperous and fully self-supporting. Statement of tribal assets and liabilities. Unallotted lands: Acres. Value. Agricultural 575,406 $2,877,029.00 Timber 44, 214 497, 408. 00 Mineral 300 6, 000. 00 619, 920 3, 480, 437. 00 Timber, board feet 221,070.65 I 3, 701, 507. 65 Tribal funds in Treasury June 30, 1913 (see Document 328, 63d Cong., 2d sess.) 295, 442. 87 $3, 996, 950. 52 Keimbursable appropriations made up to June 30, 1912 1828, 000 Expended to June 30, 1912 621, 539. 30 Reimbursed to United States 65, 000. 00 Reimbursable to United States 556, 539. 30 Surplus 3,440,411.22 All allotments completed. Allotted under act of Mar. 1, 1907 (34 Stat., 1035). Upon motion of Senator Robinson item No. 83 was incorporated in the bill on page 20 thereof, and which item reads as follows: There is hereby appropriated the sum of $100,000, to be Immediately available and to remain available until expended, and the Secretary of the Interior is author- ized to use this money, or so much thereof as may be necessary, under such regula- tions as he may prescribe, for the promotion of civilization and self-support among the Indians residing and having tribal rights on the Flathead Reservation, Montana, the said sum to be expended in the purchase of live stock, seed, vehicles, harness, machinery, tools, implements, and other agricultural equipment, for the construc- tion of houses for said Indians, and for such other purposes as the Secretary of the Interior may deem proper in promoting their civilization and self-support: Provided, That said sum shall be expended under conditions to be prescribed by the Secre- tary of the Interior for its repayment to the United States on or before June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty-five; and all repayments to this fund made on or before June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty-four, are hereby reappropriated for the same purpose as the original fund, and the entire fund, including such repay- ments, shall remain available until June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty- four- and all payments to the fund hereby created which shall be made subsequent 24 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. to June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty-four, shall be covered into the Treas- ury and shall not be withdrawn or applied except in consequence of a subsequent appropriation made by law. Mr. Merit t justified this item and also called attention to the jus- tification appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: Indian population 2, 311 Acreage of reservation area 228, 227 Acreage of agricultural land 170, 227 Acreage of grazing land ^ 58, 000 Acreage allotted lands 228, 146 Acreage under ditch 38, 000 Acreage cultivated by Indiana 31, 479 < Irrigated 4, 882 Not irrigated 26, 597 Xiive 8 ock : Horses, all kinds 6, 000 Cattle of all kinds 26, 000 Shee^ None. The Flathead Indian Reservation has been allotted and the surplus lands opened to homestead settlement. The proceeds from the sale of these lands have been hypothecated through previous legislation for the purpose of constructing irrigation systems to such an extent that it will take probably a number of years for sufficient moneys to be paid in to reimburse the amount already expended on irrigation projects, which is now about $600,000. This leaves no tribal funds available whereby to aid the Indians industrially and nothing in prospect until after the Government is reimbursed for the amount expended on irrigation. For want of funds to provide the Indians with proper work teams, implements, seed, material for building houses, fences, etc., it is virtually impossible to establish the Indians on their allotments and enable them to make permanent homes thereon and cultivate them for their self-support. It will be noted that of the 280,146 acres allotted about 38,000 acres are now under ditch. As the allotments were made prior to the construction of these irrigation projects, it follows that many of the Indians have only grazing and dry farming lands. To enable such as have grazing lands only to properly utilize them for their self-support, it is necessary to. furnish them with sufficient live stock to consume the grass on their allotments. This appropriation is asked for for the purpose of furnishing the Indian allottees with funds to enable them to establish themselves on their allotments, cultivate such as are suited for agricultural purposes, and to stock those which are suited only for grazing purposes. It is in this way only that the allotments given the Indian can be made to contribute to their self-support. On this reservation are found a number of quite well-to-do mixed bloods who own considerable live stock and some of whom have large farms opened up. This accounts in the main for the acreage now under cultivation and for the amount of live stock owned by the Indians, as shown by the statistics herewith: Flathead Reservation^ STATEMENT OF TRIBAL ASSETS AND LIABILITIES. Unallotted lands: Acres. Value. Agricultural 909,660 14,488,710.00 Grazing (unknown). Timber 205,004 4,887,507.00 Mineral (Camas Hot Springs) 155 19, 493- 00 1, 114, 819 9, 395, 710. 00 Timber, board feet, 1,491,771 ,450 4, 475, 314. 00 ^ •.,.,. r. 1^' 871, 024. 00 Tribal funds m Treasury June 30, 1913 (Doc. 328, 63d Cong., 2d sess. ) 58, 953. 15 $13, 929, 977. 15 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BItL. 25 Reimbursable appropriations made to June 30, 1912 $1,161,557 Expended to June 30, 1912 $996, 120. 55 Reimbursed to United States 417, 013. 25 Reimbursable to United States $579, 107. 30 Surplus 13, 350, 869. 85 All allotments completed. Allotted under the act of April 23, 1904 (33 Stat. L., 302). Upon motion of Senator Robinson item No. 93 was incorporated in the bill on page 20 thereof, so that it will appear as follows: For the Mescalero (Apache) Indians in New Mexico: There is hereby appropriated the sum of $200,000, to be immediately available and to remain available until expended, and the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to use this money, or so much thereof as may be necessary, under such regulations as he may prescribe, for the promotion of civilization and self-support among the Indians residing and having tribal rights on the Mescalero Indian Reservation in New Mexico, the said sum to be expended in the purchase of live stock, seed, vehicles, harness, machinery, tools, implements, and other agricultural equipment, for the construction of houses for said Indians, and for such other purposes as the Secretary of the Interior may deem proper in promoting their civilization and self-support: Provided, That said sum shall be expended under conditions to be prescribed. by the Secretary of the Interior for its repayment to the United States on or before June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty-five; and all repayments to this fund made on or before June thirtieth, nine- teen hundred and twenty-four, are hereby reappropriated for the same purpose as the original fund; and the entire fund, including such repayments, shall remain available until June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty-four; and all repayments to the fund hereby created which shall be made subsequent to June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty-four^ shall be covered into the Treasury and shall not be with- drawn or applied except in consequence of a subsequent appropriation made by law. Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justi- fication appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: Indian population 629 Acreage of reservation area 474, 240 Acreage of agricultural land 9, 210 Acreage of grazing land 351, 280 Acreage allotted lands None. Acreage under ditch 210 Acreage cultivated by Indians 1, 120 Irrigated ". 125 Not irrigated 995 Live stock: Horses 300 Mares ' 800 Stallions, pony 20 Cows and heifers 200 Bulls 4 Steers 15 Sheep 12, 150 The Mescalero Indian Reservation carries timber estimated at one and a half billon board feet and valued at four and a half million dollars. Under present conditions timber is of little present worth to them, and, while they have great potential resources, they are really suffering much of the time for want of proper and sufficient subsistence and clothing. It will be noted that the a^cultural land is very limited and that only 210 acres of it are now under ditch. While the amount of agricultural land is ^ven as 9,210 acres, as a matter of fact this land is of rather low grade; hence there is very little future prospect of these Indians agriculturally. There is a large acreage of reservation land well suited for grazing, but the Indiana own such a small amount of live stock that it contributes but little to the upkeep and is entirely insufficient to become a basis for the purpose of stocking their grazing lands. 26 INDIAN APPKOPKIATION BILL. By reason of this a large portion of the grazing lands of the reservation is now leased to wliite stockmen that the grass may be consumed and the rental therefrom maae to contribute to the upkeep of the Indians. i a i It is estimated that it would require about $600,000 or $700,000 to supply stock sufficient to replace the number now being grazed under the permit system. Ihe reservation force of employees is about sufficient to manage and supervise all hve stock that the reservation would carry except such range riders as could be supplied through the employment of members of the tribe. . While the Indians are not allotted, many of them have been given tentative selec- tions on which they should be building homes, but are unable to provide themselves with the necessary material for construction. Neither are they able to fence the lands necessary for the control of their domestic live stock. This appropriation is asked for for the purpose of supplying the needs of the Indians as set forth above, and particularly with a view of purchasing live stock with which to stock the reservation instead of leasing it to whites. While on other reservations the Government has provided reimbursable appropriations for the development of the agricultural lands through the construction of irrigation projects, little has been attempted along the lines indicated above where agriculture is impossible but where the live-stock industry offers excellent prospects. Estimates made on the profits coming from the grazing of live stock on this reserva- tion clearly show that if it were reasonably stocked the profits would be quite sufficient to maintain the tribe, and through this industry to permanently establish them along the lines of self-support. Stutement of tribal assets and liabilities, Mescalero Reservation. Unallotted lands. Agricultural Grazing Timber Unfit for any purpose. Timber board feet. Total value Acres. 9,210 40,000 350,000 75,000 474,210 1,500,000,000 Value. $407,300 160,000 4,552,700 5,119,800 4,500,000 9,619,800 This reservation is all unallotted. On June 30, 1913, there were no tribal funds in the Treasury, and no reimbursable funds have been appropriated by Congress. No allotments have been made and no legislation is pending to allot. This reservation was created by Executive order and embraces approximately 500,000 acres. No allotments have been made here, and the Indian population aggregates 412. This number, however, has been increased by the transfer of 187 Fort Sill Apaches, formerly on the Fort Sill Reservation, Okla., who have been ad- mitted to full tribal rights of land, money, and other benefits with the Mescalero Indians. A large part of the reservation has not been surveyed, and there is no authority under existing law for the disposal of any of the surplus other than by restoration to the public domain. Upon motion of Senator Robinson item 101 was incorporated in the bill on page 20 thereof so that it will appear as follows: Settlement of Turtle Mountain Indians, North Dakota: To assist members of Turtle Mountain Tribe of Indians in making settlement upon their nonreservation allot- ments, $25,000. Mr. Meritt justified this item, and also called attention to the justification appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: By act of April 21, 1904 (33 Stats., 194), all members of this band of Indians who were unable to secure allotments of the little reservation of two townships in Rolette County, N. Dak., were permitted to take "homesteads" on the public domain In pursuance of this privilege there have been about 2,000 homesteads (more properly termed allotments) token by members of this band in western North Dakoto and South Dakoto and in various parts of Montana. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 27 It is found that very few of the families allotted on the public domain are able to move to tJieir allotments and establish homes thereon for want of means to cover the expense of moving, and for further want of means with which to purchase material to build houses, make fences, etc. The agreement made by this band upon which the act above named is based was concluded in the year 1892. At that time there were public lands in plenty in the near region of the reservation and naturally the purpose of the Indians was to take lands in that part of the State of North Dakota, which would now be many times more valuable than what they have been able to secure. It would have been a matter of very slight expense, comparatively, for the Indians to move from the reser- vation to the near-by allotments, could they have taken them as was intended at the time the agreement was entered into. This agreement, however, was pending 12 years between the time of its execution and the time of its approval by Congress. During this period all the valuable public lands in the near vicinity of the reservation were taken by settlers, hence the neces- sity of these Indians going so far west to take their allotments. It is therefore not only necessary to aid them in the manner described above, but it would seem to be equitable toward them that such aid should be extended to them. Upon motion of Senator Robinson item No. 133 was incorporated in the bill, on page 20 thereof, so that it will appear as follows: Purchase of implements, Warm Springs Reservation, Oreg.: There is hereby appro- priated the sum of $100,000, to be immediately available and to remain available until expended, and the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to use this money, or so much thereof as may be necessary, under such regulations as he may prescribe, for the promotion of civilization and self-support among the Indians residing and having tribal rights on the Warm Springs Reservation, Oreg., the said sum to be expended in the purchase of live stock, seed, vehicles, harness, machinery, tools, implements, and other agricultural equipment; for the construction of houses for said Indians; and for such other purposes as the Secretary of the Interior may deem proper in promoting their civilization and self-support: Provided, That said sum shall be expended under conditions to be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior for its repayment to the United States on or before June 30, 1925; and all repayments to this fund made on or before June 30, 1924, are hereby reappropriated for the same purpose as the original fund, and the entire fund, including such repayments, shall remain available until June 30, 1924; and all repayments to the fund hereby created which shall be made subsequent to June 30, 1924, shall be covered into the Treasury and shall not be withdrawn or applied except in consequence of a subsequent appropria- tion made by law. Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justification appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading, in part, as follows: Indian population 749 Acreage of reservation area 462, 804 Acreage of agricultural land ''l? 696 Acreage of grazing land 337, 360 Acreage of allotted lands 323, 075 Acreage under irrigation None. Acreage cultivated by Indian 6, 000 Irrigated - - None. Not irrigated 6, 000 Live stock: Horses 1 ' ^"^ Mares ^> ^^ Stallions, pony 1^^ Cows and heifers ^"2 Bulls 7& Steers ( ) Sheep No"^' The Warm Springs Indians were allotted several years ago, the trust patents being dated December 31, 1896, and the 25-year trust period will expire December 31, 1921. This leaves but eight years to prepare them to assume full charge of their individual affairs, and in case of failure the period will need to be extended. 1 Not reported. 28 INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL, The timber of this reservation is estimated at over 2,000,000,000 board feet, and at $1 per thousand this would make a timber valuation of over $2,000,000. It will be seen by the statistics that there is but a small area of a^icultural land, and this is known to be of low grade, in broken and scattered bodies, and mostly where dry farming only can be done. This reservation has been examined to deternune the irrigation possibilities, and it is found that no large bodies of land exist where reclamation projects are feasible, but that scattered tracts of a few acres each can be irrigated. Notwithstanding the immense future tribal resources, there are now no funds to provide the Indians with building and fencing material, with live stock, etc.; hence they are progressing very slowly and have made but slight industrial advance since they were allotted. The only means of developing them industrially with any hope of putting them on a reasonably self-supporting basis within the remainder of the 25-year trust period is to stock the reservation with live stock and then develop the several homes, with a view of enabling the several Indian families to care for live stock in such numbers as will supply their needs, utilizing such scattered agricultiural tracts as will con- tribute in part to their living. It is with such purpose in view that this appropriation is requested. This would seem to be the only way whereby the vast future resources of the tribe can be made to contribute to their development at the time it is most needed. Statement of tribal assets and liabilities. Unallotted lands. A.gricultural Grazing Timber Unfit for any purpose . Timber (board feet). Tribal funds in Treasury June 30, 1913 (Doc. 328, 63d Cong., 2d sess.). Acres. 10,000 41, 360 222,000 50,000 323, 360 2,280,000,000 Value. $50,000.00 103,400.00 2,790,452.00 2,943,852.00 2,280,000.00 5,223,852,00 2,853.17 5,226,705.17 All allotments have been made under general allotment act of February 8, 1887 (24 Stat., 388). No reimbursable appropriations have been made by Congress. Upon motion of Senator Kobinson item No. 167 was incorporated in the bill on page 20 thereof so that it will appear as follows: Purchase of implements, etc., Shoshone Reservation, Wyo.: There is hereby appro- priated the sum of $50,000, to be immediately available and to remain available until expended, and the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to use this money, or so much thereof as may be necessary, under such regulations as he may prescribe, for the promotion of civilization and self-support among the Indians residing and having tribal rights on the Shoshone Reservation, Wyo., the said sum to be expended in the purchase of live stock, seed, vehicles, harness, machinery, tools, implements, and other agricultural equipment; for the construction of houses for said Indians, and for such other purposes as the Secretary of the Interior may deem proper in promoting their civilization and self-support: Provided, That said sum shall be expended under conditions to be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior for its repayment to the United States on or before June 30, 1925; and all repayments to this fund made on or before June 30, 1924, are hereby reappropriated for the same purpose as the original fund; and the entire fund, including such repayments, shall remain available until June 30, 1924; and all repayments to the fund hereby created which shall be made subsequent to June 30, 1924, shall be covered into the Treasury and shall not be with- drawn or applied except in consequence of a subsequent appropriation made by law. INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. 29 Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justi- fication appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: Indian population 1^ 7I5 Acreage of reservation area 318| 543 Acreage of agricultural land 207, 251 Acreage of allotted lands 224, 567 Acreage under ditch , 104, 544 Acreage cultivated by Indians ^\ 500 Irrigated 7, 500 Live stock: Horses 600 Mares 1^ 600 Stallions, pony 184 Cows and heifers 3, 804 Bulls 75 Steers 1,072 Sheep 4, 000 There has been $646,374.33, reimbursable, expended on the Shoshone Reserva- tion, Wyo., in irrigation systems. The area thus reclaimed, together with what has formerly been done, aggregates about 104,000 acres under ditch. Under present conditions the Indians are unable to utilize any considerable quan- tity of this land for want of means, and the water rights attaching are in jeopardy for want of beneficial use being made of the water thus temporarily hypothe- cated. As there are yet nearly $500,000 of the original sum expended for irrigation to be reimbursed, and as the proceeds from sale of homestead lands are coming in very slowly, it is evident that as the tribal finances now stand there will be no ^nd to develop the Indians industrially until after their water rights have been forfeited. The grazing lands held by the tribe, individually and tribally, offer opportunities of the highest order, but there are no funds with which to take advantage of these opportunities. The appropriation is requested to enable the Indians to operate the greatest possible acreage of their lands under ditch and as far as possible to stock their grazing lands, much of which is now comparatively idle. Statement of tribal assets and liabilities. Unallotted lands. Agricultural. Grazing Timber Mineral Timber, board feet. Acres. 75, 700 531, 309 300 1,000 608, 309 3,750,000 Tribal funds in Treasury June 30, 1913 (H. Doc. 328, 63d Cong., 2d sess.) Reimbursable appropriations made to June 30, 1912 Expended to June 30, 1912 Reimbursed to United States. Reimbursable to United States. Surplus Value. $113,550.00 796,964.00 11, 400. 00 50, 000. 00 971,914.00 11,250.00 983,164.00 31, 779. 20 670, 407. 16 646, 374. 33 149,371.05 $1,014,943.20 497,003.28 517,939.92 Allotments not yet completed. There are about 608,309 acres in diminished reser- vation unallotted and undisposed of. Allotments made under general allotment act of February 8, 1887 (24 Stat. L., 388), approximately 1,438,633.66 acres, in addition to above unallotted lands opened to settlement by proclamation of June 2, 1906 (34 Stat. L., 3208). 30 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Robinson moves that all items comprehending the entire plan of industrial education among the Indians shall have the approval of the committee. Mr. Clapp spoke also in favor of the proposed plan of the department. Mr. Page also spoke in favor of it; ako Mr. Fall and Mr. Townsend. Mr. Lane was inclined to oppose the program. Miss Kellogg addressed the committee. Mr. Kobinson asked her if she would object to a liberal allowance being made to the Indians for industrial purposes where the Indians have been provided with lands ready for cultivation. She answered that she understood these were relief measures for the present exigencies, but that there must be something done inamediately whether we are considering something else or not. After about a half hour's discussion of the motion it was unanimously agreed to. Upon motion of Senator Townsend item 18, page 11 of the bill, was agreed to with the following change: in line 3, page 11, strike out "$400,000'' and insert ''$100,000,'^ so that it shall read: For the purpose of encouraging industry and self-support among the Indians and to aid them in the culture of fruits, grains, and other crops, $100,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, to be immediately available, which sum may be used for the purchase of seed, animals, machinery, tools, implements, and other equip- ment necessary to enable Indians to become self-supporting: Provided, That said sum shall be expended under conditions to be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior for its repayment to the United States on or before June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty-five, and all repayments to this fund made on or before June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty-four, are hereby reappropriated for the same purpose as the original fund, and the entire fund, including such repayments, shall remain available until June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty-four, and all repayments to the fund hereby created which shall be made subsequent to June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty-four, shall be covered into the Treasury and shall not be withdrawn or applied except in consequence of a subsequent appropria- tion made by law: Provided further , That hereafter the Secretary of the Interior shall submit to Congress annually on the first Monday in December a detailed report of all moneys appropriated for the purpose of encouraging industry among Indians: And provided also, That not to exceed $50,000 of the amount herein appropriated shall be expended on any one reservation or for the benefit of any one tribe of Indians. Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justi- fication appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: Industry among Indians {reimhursahle) . Fiscal year ending June 30, 1914, amount appropriated $100, 000. 00 Fiscal year ended June 30, 1913: Unexpended balance 25, 458. 94 Amount expended 13, 073. 53 Unexpended balance 12, 385. 41 ANALYSIS OF EXPENDITURES. Transportation of supplies $44. 17 Equipment 11, 764. 98 Seed, trees, etc 1, 264. 38 13,073.53 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILJ^. 31 Statement of expenditures for the fiscal year 1913 from the appropriation ''Industry among Indians (reimbursable), " act of Mar. 3, 1911 {36 Stat. L., 1058-1062). Agency. Camp McDowell, Ariz Fort Mojave, Anz Malki,Cal Martmez, Cal Pala,Cal Pechanga. Cal Soboba, Cal Flathead. Moiat Fort McDerraitt, Nev Walker River, Nev Pueblo Albuquerque, N. Mex. Santa Fe, N. Mex Shawnee, Okla Total. Live stock. $1,610.00 500.00 100.00 325. 00 2, 570. 00 40.00 144.00 305. 00 287.50 5, 881. 50 Imple- ments, harness, •to. $195. 51 ""73.' 50" 27.59 883.35 458. 11 1,850.35 2, 439. 24 5,927.65 Seed, trees, etc. $573. 13 135. 90 555. 35 1, 264. 38 Total. $195, 51 1,610.00 500.00 173. 50 573. 13 135. 90 907. 94 3, 453. 35 458. 11 40.00 1-, 994. 35 2, 744. 24 287.50 13,073.53 Original appropriation. Repayments t $30, 000. 00 262. 00 * ' 30 262. 00 Expended to June 30, 1913 15,' 902. 24 Balance 14,359.76 Statement of expenditures for the fiscal year 1913 from the appropriation, "Purchase of implements for Indians of Tongue River Reservation, Mont.'^ (reimbursable), act of Apr. 4, 1910 (36 Stat. L., 269-277). Expended during the fiscal year 1913: For live stock U, 585. 00 For agricultural implements 139. 00 Total 4, 724. 00 Original appropriation $15, 000. 00 Repayments 13, 074. 83 28, 074. 83 Expended to June 30, 1913 23, 061. 76 Balance 5, 013. 07 It will be noted that the $15,000 appropriated for use on the Tongue River Reserva- tion by act of April 4, 1910, has all been used once, nearly all of it has been repaid, and about two-thirds of the original amount used the second time. As the disburse- ments under this fund have been very largely for live stock for breeding purposes, and for seed and agricultural implements, it is not hard to see that the benefits accruing to the Indians will in all probability aggregate values several times the amount of the original appropriation. "While the foregoing statement regarding the expenditures from the appropriation "Industry among Indians, reimbursable," act of March 3, 1911, shows only an ex- penditure of $15,902.24, and a balance of $14,359.7'6, all but $4,717.06 have been apportioned among 14 different superintendencies. The failure to expend the entire sum is due very largely to the fact that superintendents have been unfamiliar with the use of funds of this character, and the Indians have been frequently slow to participate in the use of the money. At some of the reservations all of the amounts apportioned have been used and additional sums are being asked for to meet the demands of the Indians. The money expended, it will be noted, has been used in the purchase of live stock, consisting of sheep, cattle, work teams, and breeding stock, implements, harness, seeds, and trees. While no actual expenditures have been thus far made from the sum of $100,000 appropriated by the act of June 30, 1913 (Public, No. 4), for the purpose of encouraging industry among Indians, the sum of $75,000 has been apportioned in sums ranging 32 INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. from $1,000 to $15,000 among 25 different reservations in the States of Arizona, Cali- fornia, Nevada, New Mexico, Oklahoma, North Carolina, and Utah. ^* /^J^^,^* the reservations larger sums than could be apportioned are needed to meet the de- mands of the Indians for assistance from reimbursable funds, and at other places no apportionments can be made at all at the present time. At a number of the reserva- tions extensive areas of land have been put under irrigation ditches and large sums of money will be needed to assist the Indians at these places in making beneficial use of water upon their allotments, in order to save their water rights. If specific sums are appropriated for these reservations, the remaining $25,000 from the act of June 30, 1913, can be distributed to at least partially meet the needs of the India is on those reservations having good live stock and agricultural possibilities. There are many very worthy Indians in the Southwest, along the Pa-cific coast, and in various other places who have good allotments or who have fine live-stock possi- bilities, who, if given a few hundred dollars each to purchase teams, implements, etc., to work their lands or to purchase a few head of live stock for breeding pur- poses, or possibly better bulls, stallions, or rams for the herds they now own, would eagerly grasp the opportunities thus presented, and with proper supervision they would soon become self-supporting instead of having to lean on the Governme it for their existence. There are also many cases where Indians now very much need better and more sanitary homes, but the only way they can provide themselves with such would be by the sacrifice of their live stock or such depletion thereof as to wholly or largely destroy their income. If they could have the benefit of a few hunderd dollars with which to purchase material and employ skilled labor, they could provide themselves with reasonably good homes, and by saving their live stock would be able to reimburse the loan in small payments without materially lessening their earning powers. In several places it is now very necessary to provide large amounts for better breed ing stock, such as bulls, stallions, and rams, for which little or no funds are available. In many, instances the Indians would be ready and willing to purchase this live stock if funds were available for the Government to make the purchase and let the Indians select therefrom after delivery at the agency. Under present conditions if this live stock is purchased from the regular support funds and sold to the Indians^ the money thus collected reverts to the Treasury and is not again available. This limits its use to one purchase, whereas by calling into use a portion of these reimbursable appro- priations for the service at large such purchases can be made, the animals sold out to the Indians, and the money thus taken in can be similarly used for other places, and in that way a given sum can frequently be made to aid different tribes or various families of the same tribe. As the system for using these funds is perfected, and as the superintendents and the Indians of the various parts of the country become acquainted with the system and the benefits accruing, there is no doubt but that the appropriations will be fully used up. It is believed that this plan is much better for the Indians than the former plan of buying live stock, implements, etc., and issuing to the Indians direct, either gra- tuitously or for labor to be performed on the reservations. The effect on the Indians la much better, and as they become accustomed to it most of the tribes seem to prefer it. Upon motion of Senator Townsend item No. 9, page 8 of printed bill, was agreed to with the following changes: Line 21, page 8, strike out the figures '^ $400,000'' and substitute therefor '^ $500,000," and in line 24, page 8, strike out the figures ^^$25,000" and substitute therefor '^$5,000," and beford the first word '^and" of line 20, page 8, insert the followuig: ''for furnishing necessary equipment and sup- plies for such farmers and stockmen/' so that the same shall read as follows : To conduct experiments on Indian school or agency farms designed to test the possibilities of soil and climate in the cultivation of trees, grains, vegetables, and fruits, for the purposes of preserving living and growing timber on Indian reservations and alio tments,_ and to advise the Indians as to the proper care of forests; for the employ- ment of suitable persons as matrons to teach Indian women and girls housekeeping and other household duties, and for furnishing necessary equipments and supplies and renting quarters for them where necessary; for the employment of practical farmers and stockmen, m addition to the agency and school farmers now employed; for furnishing necessary equipment and supplies for such farmers and stockmen, and to superintend and direct farming and stock raising among Indians, $500,000: Provided, That the foregoing shall not, as to timber, apply to the Menominee Indian Reserva- tion in Wisconsin: Provided further, That not to exceed $5,000 of the amount herein INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 3S appropriated may be used to conduct experiments on Indian school or agency farms to test the possibilities of soil and climate in the cultivation of trees, grains, vegetables, and fruits: Provided also, That the amounts paid to matrons, foresters, farmers, and stockmen herein provided for shall not be included within the limitation on salaries and compensation of employees contained in the act of August twenty-fourth, nine- teen hundred and twelve. On the amendment (Calendar No. 126) proposed by Mr. Thomp- son, Mr. Taggart addressed the committee in favor of the amendment, referring to House hearings, pages 396-397. Upon motion it was unanimously adopted so that on page 17, after line 24, insert the loUowmg: That the sum of $40,000 is hereby appropriated and made immediately available for the erection of a gymnasium for the use of the pupils at the Indian school, Haskell Institute, Lawrence, Kansas. Upon motion it was unanimously agreed that item No. 104^, page 35, of the printed bill, be adopted by the committee, the same reading (on pp. 35-36 of the bill) as follows: That the Secretary of the Interior be, and he is hereby, authorized to withdraw from the Treasury of the United States, not to exceed the sum of $100,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, of the principal sum on deposit to the credit of the In- dians on the Standing Rock Indian Reservation, in North Dakota, for the purpose of purchasing cattle for the use of said Indians to enable them to become self-sup- portinw: Provided, That said sum shall be expended under conditions to be pre- scribed by the Secretary of the Interior for its repayment and placed into the Treas- ury to the credit of the said tribe on or before June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twenty -five: Provided further, That the Secretary of the Interior shall submit to Con- gress annually on the first Monday in December a detailed statement as to the expendi- ture of this fund. On motion it was unanimously agreed that item 118, page 41 of the bill, be approved so that it appear as follows: The unexpended balance of the money heretofore appropriated by the act of June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and thirteen, for the relief and settlement of the Apache Indians confined as prisoners of war at Fort Sill Military Reservation, in Oklahoma, on lands in Oklahoma to be selected for them by the Secretary of the Interior and the Secretary of War, is hereby reappropriated and shall remain available until expended. On motion of Senator Townsend item 147 of the bill, page 54 thereof, was amended to read as follows: That the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to withdraw from the Treasury of the United States, at his discretion, the sum of $500,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, of the funds to the credit of the Confederated Bands of Ute Indians, together with the accrued interest thereon appropriated under the act of March fourth, nineteen hundred and thirteen (Thirty-seventh Statutes at Large, page nine hundred and thirty-four), and to use the same for the purpose of promoting civilization and self-support among the said Indians, under such regulations as the Secretary of the Interior may prescribe, said funds to be immediately available and to remain avail- able until expended: Provided, That the said Secretary shall report to Congress on the first Monday in December, nineteen hundred and fourteen, a detailed statement as to all moneys expended as provided for herein. ; Senator Page made objection to the measure, and Mr. Clapp and Mr. La Follette supported it. After discussion the item was agreed to. Mr. Meritt thoroughly justified this item and in addition called attention to the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs reading in part as follows: The act of March 4, 1913 (37 "Stats., 934), provides for the payment for the net amount of a judgment of the Court of Claims in favor of the Confederated Band of Ute Indians, to remain in the Treasury to the credit of the Ute Indians. The amoimt 39746— PT 1—14 3 34 nSTDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. of said judgment to pay interest at 4 per cent per annum from and after February 13, 1911, such interest to be available under annual appropriations by Congress lor casn per capita payments to the Ute Indians entitled or for expenditure for tneir oenent in the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior, $3,305,257.19. This fund runs to the Ute Indians of three superintendencies, as follows: Uintah and Ouray, Utah 1' J^^ Southern Ute Agency, Colo ^^ Navajo Springs Agency, Colo ^^^ Total persons 2, 055 Of the Indians of the Uintah and Ouray Agency, Utah, about 300 were allotted about 15 years ago 160 acres to the person, and the remainder were allotted, in 1905, 80 acres to the heads of families and 40 acres to all other members. These last allot- ments were made with the promise to the Indians that they would be irrigated. In pursuance of this poUcy the Government, through the use of reimbursable appropriations, has expended over $700,000 in irrigation, systems which now cover about 92,000 acres of allotted lands. Under present conditions it is necessary that all these lands be brought under cultivation and beneficial use made of the waters not later than July, 1919, else there is danger of the water rights attaching to the lands being forfeited. These lands are exceedingly fertile, well suited to growing grain, alfalfa, vegeta- bles, and most of them fruit. Within the last two years the Indians have made very satisfactory efforts toward bringing their lands under cultivation and achieving self-support through the use of them, but the best they could possibly do, even were they furnished with teams, implements, etc., would be for the several families to properly develop and operate the allotments of the heads of the families only. But inasmuch as most of the families are wanting in teams, implements, seeds, and means with which to buy materials to build houses, fences, etc., it is yet quite impossible for the larger number of families to begin this development work until assistance is given them. In about all cases it is wholly impossible for the Indians of themselves to do any- thing in the way of development work and perfecting of the water rights of the allot- ments made to the wives and children and to the old and dependent. It has been found by actual experience that the cost of clearing the land, fencing it as required by law, plowing, leveling, and constructing the necessary local laterals and ditches is about $10 per acre. In case of very rough or stony land the cost is greater. The purpose in asking that $1,000,000 of this tribal fund be made available for industrial development work is with a view of segregating it into individual shares, then on this reservation using these shares: First, for the purpose of developing the lands of all allottees who can not develop such themselves and thereby perfect the water rights; second, to aid able-bodied Indians in the purchase of teams, imple- ments, etc., that they may develop their own lands; and third, in cases where the lands are developed and the water rights perfected, to aid the allottees in making better improvements, purchase of live stock, or such other needs as may seem best. This would make a per capita of about $480, and it will be seen that this amount will be needed to accompUsh the purposes set forth above. Any lesser amount would be insufficient to develop the lands in 40-acre lots, and any scheme that would require only partial development would be at an immense loss in the end to the allottees. The Indians of the Southern Ute Agency were allotted several years ago, mostly in tracts of 80 and 160 acres per individual. These allotments are only partially developed, and in some cases no development work whatever has been done. The purpose would be to use the shares of this tribe, first, to develop their individual holdings; second, in the purchase of Live stock, implements, etc., to be used indus- trially; and, third, if not otherwise needed, to purchase live stock for grazing pur- poses. The Indians of the Navaho Springs Reservation, Colo., are not allotted, and they have now virtually no agricultural lands which can be allotted to them. They have many thousands of acres of good grazing lands held in tribal form, hence it will be necessary for them to depend almost entirely in the future on the live-stock industry for seK-support. If this fund is made available, the shares going to this tribe will be sufficient to buy enough live stock to utilize the feed now growing on the reserva- tion and which is at present being utilized very largely by the live stock of the lessees. ^ It 13 not only deemed highly advisable to have this money made available for industrial development work, but if such is not done, and if the former poHcy of paying out tribal moneys in per capita form is continued, we must expect that these Indians will be debauched thereby, instead of being advanced 'along industrial lines INDIAN APPRO PBIATION BILL. 35 Upon motion of Senator Townsend item No. 163 appearing on page 59 of the bill was agreed to so th^ the same shall read as follows: The money appropriated in section twenty-four of the Indian appropriation act of June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and thirteen (Public Numbered Four), for the purchase of allotments for the individual members of that portion of the Wisconsin pand of Pottawatomie Indians now residing in the States of Wisconsin and Michigan, is hereby made available for the purposes for which appropriated and shall remain available until expended. Mr. Mefitt justified this item, and also called attention to the jus- tification appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading, in part, as follows: Purchase of allotments for Wisconsin Band of Pottawatomies, Wisconsin and Michigan {reimhur sable). Fiscal year ending June 30, 1914, amount appropriated $150, 000 Fiscal year ended June 30, 1913, no appropriation. The item provides that the amount appropriated by the act of June 30, 1913 (Public No. 4), $150,000, for the purchase of lands for the Wisconsin Band of Pottawatomie Indians residing in the States of Michigan and Wisconsin shall remain available therefor until expended . By the act of June 21, 1906 (34 Stat. L., 380), Congress in effect recognized the claim of the Pottawatomie Indians of Wisconsin and Michigan, amounting to $447,339, as their share of annuities and moneys to which they would have been entitled had they removed to Kansas in accordance mth the treaty of September 26, 1833 (7 Stat. L., 431), and directed that the Secretary of the Interior investigate their claims and make an enrollment and a report to Congress thereon. A clerk of the Indian Office was detailed for the purpose. His report, dated Decem- ber 18, 1907, printed in House Document No. 830, Sixtieth Congress, first session, shows that 457 Indians were enrolled as belonging in the United States. The claim, in brief, ai:ose from the said treaty of 1833 with the United Nation of Chip- pewa, Ottawa, and Pottawatomie Indians who ceded to the United States certain tracts of country in Wisconsin and Illinois, and agreed to move west of the Mississippi. A part of the tribe so removed and the remainder fled to northern Michigan, Wisconsin, and Canada, The annuities and other tribal benefits arising from their treaties with the Government were paid only to those who removed west of the Mississippi, upon the supposition that the refugee branch of the tribe had forfeited all claims on the Government by reason of the failure to remove in accordance with the said treaty of 1833. It was said in the report, printed in House Document 830, that the proportionate share of the Pottawatomies and their descendants who did not so remove was $1,947,339, the share of those found to be residing in the United States being $447,339, and those those in Canada about $1,500,000. No definite action was taken by Congress until 1910, when by the act of April 4 of that year (36 Stat. L., 269) an appropriation of $25,000 was made for the support, education, and civilization of these Indians. Relief was accordingly granted in needy cases. By the act of March 3, 1911 (36 Stat. L., 1058), the previous appropriation of $25,000 was made available until expeuded. The act of August 24, 1912 (37 Stat. L., 518), appropriated $7,000 "For support, education, and civilization of the Potawatomi Indians who reside in the State of Wisconsin." Under these appropriations some aid has been expended in cases of suffering and a school has been established for these Indians near Carter, Wis. From the investigations made in the field as to the condition of these Indians it appears that they are widely scattered in northern Wisconsin and Michigan; that those residing in the United States have no fixed homes, but roam from place to place, picking berries, etc., and ekeing out a precarious living; that some few— principally those located about 7 miles east of Carter— have homesteaded small tracts of land upon which they have made clearings and erected rude log houses, and that the other groups are living in shacks on small clearings in the forests or wherever vacant land could be found, and are from time to time forced by the owners thereof "to move on." It was also found that many of these Indians were poolry nourished and illy clad, and absolutely without school facilities of any kind.- In many instances they still feared the Government oflicers, and it was extremely diflScult to. induce them to furnish any information whatever as to their numbers or aerea. These Indians, save a 36 INDIAl!^ APPROPEIATION BILL. few exceptions, are typical nomads, and move from Wisconsin to Michigan, to Canada, again to this country whenever food becomes scarce or other necessity impels tnem. Again, many ot them have contracted vices and diseases from the worst ot me wnite civilization, and their small earnings are usually spent for liquor. In 1910, under the provisions of the act of April 4, 1910, appropriating |25,UUU tor an investigation of their condition, support, education, etc., Mr. William Loker was appointed commissioner to make the investigation, and in his report, dated Uctober , 21, 1910, said that no money whatever should be paid any of these Indians, as they did not know its value and would certainly spend most of it in the purchase of liquor and all sorts of useless material. He said also that they needed school facilities for their children, and that he believed the only means of helping them would be in following the plan suggested by Mr. Hannan, secretary to Senator La Follette: "That the Government purchase a tract of land and gather these Pottawatomies together upon it, give them family space sufficient for garden purposes, supply them with materials with which to construct homes, protect them from a certain class of - undesirable white people, and above all keep liquor from them._ Also give them a central school with white teachers, which is a very great necessity — ^many of these Pottawatomies can become useful to themselves and their people. Any other form of assistance it appears now would be useless. To distribute money would entail trouble both for the Indian and the white people." Concerning the above plan Mr. Loker added: "Any form of reservation plan would meet the approval of all the white people in this locality who are interested in the welfare of the Indians; about 70 per cent of all the Indians would welcome reservation plan; about 25 per cent would demand that the Government give them money and permit them to disburse same; and the few remaining would approve nothing, but prefer to remain in their present condition." The office believes that the only way in which these vagabond, destitute, and in some cases degraded, nomads can be fitted for assimilation into American citizenship is by collecting them on lands to be purchased and held by the Government for their use and benefit, and afterwards to be allotted them in severalty. This would enable the Government to provide proper homes and farms; to teach them agricultural pur- suits and educate their children; to keep liquor and other evils away from them; and eventually to make them self-supporting and fit to take their place among the white citizens of Wisconsin. Under the authority for the purchase of lands contained in the said act of June 30, 1913, Thomas W. Hines was appointed by the department as a special commissioner to purchase Wisconsin Potawatomie lands, and under date of September 23, 1913, was instructed to proceed to Wisconsin and such other places as might be necessary prop- erly to investigate and report upon available lands for the purpose indicated. He is now at work in the field, and prompt action will be taken to acquire the lands for these Indians as soon as his report shall have been received. The Wisconsin Potawatomie Indians number about 500, a few only of whom have obtained homesteads on the public domain. The act of June 30, 1913, authorizes the purchase of land for these Indians out of tribal funds, and a special agent is in the field at this time ascertaining suitable lands to bfe acquired for this purpose, and the item referred to is simply designed to make the amount available for this purpose until expended . Upon the suggestion of Mr. Meritt the following amendment was inserted in the bill: After the figures "20/' being tlie beginning of the line on page 8, line 20, insert the following: "for furnishing neces- sary equipment and supplies for such farmers and stockmen." Upon suggestion of Mr. Meritt the following amendment was adopted: On page 9, line 7, after the word "twelve" concluding the paragraph, insert the following: Provided further, That the unexpended balances of this appropriation for the fiscal year nineteen hundred and thirteen are hereby made avaflable for expenditure by the Co mm issioner of Indian Affairs in providing quarters for farmers and for such other industrial purposes as he may deem necessary. Upon motion of ^Senator La Follette the following amendment was proposed: After the preceding amendment adopted by the department insert the following after the word "necessary"; No money appropriated herein shall be expended for the employment of any farmer, expert farmer, stockman, or forester whose salary shall be in excess of $50 .INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. , 37 per montli, unless he shall first have procured and filed with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs a certificate of competency setting forth his ability to instruct others in the art of agriculture, stock raising, or in forestry, as the case may be; such certifi- cate to be certified and issued to him either by the president of the State agricultural college of the State in which his services are to be rendered, or by the president of the State agricultural college of an adjoining State. ' Upon motion; the above proposed amendment was referred to the Department of the Interior for an investigation and report. Upon motion of Senator Page the committee adjourned to meet to-morrow at 2 o'clock p.m. TUESDAY, MABCH 17, 1914. The committee met pursuant to adjournment, at 2 o'clock p. m., and there were preseiit Senators Myers, Lane, Robinson, Thompson, Clapp, La Follette, I*age, Gronna, Townsend, Fall, and the chairman. Upon suggestion of the chairman, item No. 24, page 15, hearings, Sage 274, providing for support of Indians in Arizona and New [exico, was passed for the present. Item No. 42, bill, page 20, hearings, 347, ''Support of Indians in California; S50,000." Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justi fication appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: Support of Indians in California. Fiscal year ending June 30, 1914, amount appropriated $57, 000. 00 Fiscal year ended June 30, 1913: Amount appropriated .' - 57, 000. 00 Amount expended 47, 527. 28 Unexpended balance 9, 472. 72 ANALYSIS OF EXPENDITURES. Salaries, wages, etc.'. 25, 646. 10 Traveling expenses 2, 231. 04 Transportation of supplies ^^" ^2 Telegraph and telephone service 180. 69 Heat, light, and power (service) 151. 18 Miscellaneous material 2, 110. 28 Stationery 24. 50 Fuel - ^'^I?-t« Mechanics' supplies In o? Cleaning and toilet supplies , - ^0. 25 Wearing apparel 204.90 Forage 3,050.49 Provisions ^' ^J- J^ Equipment 6, 839. 29 Medical supplies ^ ^' f xl' S Land ^0.00 Miscellaneous ''*^- ^^ 47, 527. 28 Within the State of California are approximately 18,000 Indians, whose welfare is looked after by this office through the medium of 11 superiatendencies. fHe information on file indicates that the income of these Indians is small. The value of the crops raised by them during 1912 was $70,000, practically one-half of which was consumed by. the Indians; the remainder was sold or retamed for lacMt market. They have practically no timber. They were able to earn about 1250,000 by labor. From the lease of their lands they obtained $6,500. 38 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. The majority of the Indians of California are exceedingly poor. While a few of those on reservations have more or less valuable tribal rights, the great majority have no such rights of any worth, and there are hundred of families that nave virtu- ally nothing, either in the way of real or personal property. This class aepend about wholly on common labor of an irregular kind, and it is not uncommon for them to go AoT days at a time with barely food enough to maintain existence. Under such conditions it necessarily follows that there will be an unusual amount of sickness, particularly tuberculosis and trachoma. By reason of their scattered condition and the fact that there are many small bands of from 50 to 200 persons, it necessitates maintaining an unusually large number of supermtendencies and sub- agencies to administer their affairs, supervise their mdustries, and maintem proper medical service. The exigencies arising in connection with these Indians have been such that it has been necessary to use about all funds heretofore available, and even then it has not been posssible to protect these Indians as they should be and to extend to them the medical aid their condition requires. Past experience fully assures that the full amount asked for herein will be needed to maintain the admiu- igtration, furnish adequate medical service, and encourage and supervise their indus- tries as liiese things should be done. The Indian population of California approximates 18,000, and the available acreage of unallotted land there on some 33 different Indian reservations aggregates only 436,000 acres. In this State allotments have heretofore been made to 2,000 Indians, covering a total area of 78,000 acres. Senator Robinson moved that the item be agreed to. After much discussion by members of the committee and remarks from Miss Kellogg and Mr. Brosius, motion was put and carried by vote of 3 to 2 of the committee. The provision as adopted read as follows: For support and civilization of Indians in California, including pay of employees, $50,000. Item No. 48, page 21 of bill, hearings page 372, '^ Support of Semi- noles in Florida." Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justi- fication appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as loUows: Support of Seminoles in Florida. Continuing appropriation. Indian population, 600. After the capture of Osceola and his attendants under a flag of truce in the Seminole War of 1835, the other members of his band retired into the swamps of Florida and have remained there ever since, declining to acknowledge in any wise the soverei^ty of the Government. Owing to the reclamation of the Everglades their position in this matter is growing untenable, and their condition precarious on account of the destruc- tion of their hunting grounds. The Government has heretofore purchased land for the benefit of these Indians for their use when it shall become necessary for them to forego hunting and make their living by agricultural pursuits, which will come to pass m the not far distant future; and since March I, I9I3, the oflBce has had a special com- missioner among them for the purpose of protecting their interests, inculcatmg in them a spirit of faith in the Government's good intentions, and preparing them for more civilized habits of life. It will be necessary to continue this work and to otherwise provide for these Indians to a certain extent for some time to come. Under various acts appropriating money for that purpose, between 1894 and 1900, some 23,000 acres of land in Florida were purchased for the Seminole Indians. By Executive order of June 28, 1911, 3,680 acres were reserved for these Indians, making a total area available for their benefit of 26,700 acres. There is no authority under existing law to allot any part of these lands other than those withdrawn by Executive order, which may be allotted under the general allotment act. Neither is there any authority for the disposal of any surplus. The Indian population aggregates 500. Upon motion of Senator Page the item was adopted, as follows: That the unexpended balance of the appropriation of $10,000 "for relief of distress among the Seminole Indians in Florida and for purposes of their civilization," made in the Indian appropriation act approved MarcJi 3, 191], is hereby reappropriated and made available until expended. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 39 Item No. 49, page 22 of printed bill, '^Support of Indians, Fort Hall Reservation, Haho, $30,000"; hearings, page 373. ;Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justi- fication appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: Support of Indians of Fort Hall Reservation, Idaho. Fiscal year ending June 30, 1914, amount appropriated $30, 000. 00 Fiscal year ended June 30, 1913: Amount appropriated 30, 000. 00 Amount expended 29, 128. 49 Unexpended balance 871. 51 ANALYSIS OF EXPENDITURES. Salaries, wages, etc 12, 402. 93 Traveling expenses 79. 15 Telegraph and telephone service 5. 84 Heat, light, and power (service) 36. 00 Miscellaneous material 1, 897. 72 Fuel 1,509.28 Mechanics' supplies 151.41 Forage 143. 95 Provisions 10, 069. 40 Equipment. 2, 728. 91 Medical supplies 78. 90 Miscellaneous 25. 00 29, 128. 49 There are about 1,800 Indians under this superintendency. These Indians have recently been allotted and the particular task before the Government is to establish them on their allotted lands, aid them in developing the lands, building homes, etc. There has recently been completed an irrigation system, constructed from reim- bursable appropriations at the cost of $886,113.61, which system includes about 40,000 acres of reservation lands allotted to the Indians. Under existing conditions it is necessary to develop these lands, make beneficial use of the water if possible by the year 1916, else the water rights attaching to the lands may be endangered. In a separate item a reimbursable appropriation of $50,000 is asked for with which to provide teams, implements, seed, etc., with which to develop these lands, and this appropriation will be needed in full amount to carry on the administrative work, educate the Indians industrially, and supervise their undertakings, home building, etc. This reservation contains about 500,000 acres. Seventy-nine Indians were allotted within that part of the reservation ceded by the act of June 6, 1900, under which 416,000 acres, formerly within this reservation, were restored to the public domain. Allotments have been made in the field to 1,859 Indians within the diminished reservation, covering 38,000 acres of irrigable land and 305,000 acres of nonirrigable land. These allotments have not yet been approved. There is no authority under existing law for the disposal of the remaining tribal lands. Upon motion of Senator Page this item was adopted, and reads as follows : For support and civilization of Indians on the Fort Hall reservation in Idaho, in- cluding pay of employees, $30,000. Item No. 53, 'Tay of employees, Fort Lapwai Agency, Idaho,'' hearings, page 383, omitted from the House bill. 40 INDIAN^ APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justi- fication appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows : Pay of employees, Fort Lapwai, Agency, Idaho. Fiscal year ending June 30, 1914, amount appropriated $2, 20 Fiscal year ended June 30, 1913 : Amount appropriated 2, 200 Amount expended 2, 200 A.NA.LYSIS OF EXPENDITURES. Salaries, wages, etc $2, 200 INDIAN POPULATION, 1,413. This is $3,300 more than was allowed last year and is requested in order that the appropriation for general expenses of the bureau may be relieved. The amount allowed provides only for two clerks, while it has been found absolutely necessary to employ an additional clerk and a laborer during the past year, and likewise the serv- ices of a temporary stenographer for nearly the entire time. The work at Fort Lap- wai Agency is important and voluminous, and the appropriation heretofore made for the pay of employees is quite inadequate. PAY OP EMPLOYEES, FORT LAPWAI AGENCY, IDAHO. The Indian population at this time aggregates 1,413, having diBcreaeed considerably eince allotments were made to the members of this tribe (Nez Perce). In 1895 allot- ments covering 178,800 acres were made to 1,876 members of this tribe and the sur- plus unallotted lands within the reservation were restored to the public domain, except about 2,170 acres which were reserved for school, agency, and other adminiB- trative purposes. There remain at this time 32,000 acres of timber and grazing land which were reserved for use of the Indiana in common. Upon motion of Senator Clapp the item was inserted in the bill as follows: For pay of employees at the Nez Perce Agency, $5,500. Item No. 57, ''Pay of employees Sac and Fox Agency, Iowa, ,000, '^ hearings, page 394. Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justi- fication appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: There are about 375 Indians of this band under the superintendent of the sana- torium, which is now being operated at that place. These Indians own their land in fee and pay taxes thereon. There are, however, many matters connected with their affairs which require supervision and administration, and for this purpose it is neces- sary to employ one clerk to assist the physician in charge. The balance of the fund is to be used for traveling expenses of the agency employees, purchase of stationery, office equipment, fuel and light, and other incidentals. Pay of employees and expenses, Sac and Fox Agency, Iowa: The Indian population under the jurisdiction of this school approximates 375. There has been no "reservation" created at this point, but with funds belonging to the Indians some 4,000 acres of good agricultural land has been acquired by purchase. No allotments in severalty have been made and the title of the lands purchased really vests in the Indian subject to a supervisory trust by the Secretary of the Interior. Pay of employees, Sac and Fox Agency, Iowa. Fiscal year ending June 30, 1914, amount appropriated $1, 080 Fiscal year ended June 30, 1913 : Amount appropriated 1, 080 Amount expended .'. . 1 080 Analysis of expenditures: Salaries, wages, etc., $1,080. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 41 Upoi. motion of Senator Gronna this item, which, was disallowed by the House committee, was reincorporated in the bill as follows: "For expenses of the Sac and Fox Agency, Iowa, $1,000." This shoxild be inserted on page 17 of the printed bill. Item No. 62, '^Pay of employees Mackinac Agency, Michigan, $3,600," hearings, page 407, page 23 printed bill. Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justification appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: Pay of employees, Machinac Agency, Mich. Fiscal year ending June 30, 1914, amount appropriated $2, 000 Fiscal year ended June 30, 1913: Amoimt appropriated 2, 000 Amount expended 2,' 000 ANALYSIS OF EXPENDITURES. Salaries, wages, etc 2, 000 Amount asked for, $3,600. Indian population, 1,097. The increase in the amount asked for in this appropriation consists of two items: The first, permanent in nature, calls for $400 in the amount paid for employees; and the second, which will not have to be reauthorized in. future years, is $1,200 for the erection of an agency office. It is necessary to have a doctor in charge at the Mackinac Agency so jthat the same official may look after the administration of the affairs and the health of the Indians living under that jurisdiction. The salary in past years, $1,100, was limited because the special agent was allowed to engage in outside medical practice and in that way supplemented his income. The private practice, however, consisted in acting as contract physician for several large lumber companies which purchased the timber on Indian allotments. It was believed that his duties as special agent and as contract physician for the lumber companies might conflict, or at any rate, subject him and the Indian Service to criticism. He was directed, therefore, to discontinue contract work. As a con- sequence, the special agent's income is Kmited to $1,100 per annum, and this is too small a compensation to retain the services of a competent official having the requisite professional qualifications. As this is a specific appropriation, hence the request for an increase in the amount allowed for employees. The Mackinac Agency is maintained to supervise the fiscal affairs of the Indians in Michigan, principally members of the L'Anse, Vieux Desert, Isabella, Chippewa, Swan Creek, Black River, and other tribes, particularly with reference to their timber and land matters. Ninety-eight thousand three hxmdred and ninety-five acres have been allotted to 1,943 Indians on the former Isabella Reservation; 52,041 acres allotted to 666 Indians of the L'Anse Tribe; 2,561 acres have been allotted to 35 Indians of the Ontonagon Band, and 120,470 acres allotted to 1,800 members of the Ottawa and Chippewa Bands, These allotments were all made many years ago and there is no tribal land other than a few acres reserved for school and administrative purposes. Upon motion of Senator Gronna this item, which was disallowed by tne House committee, was incorporated in the bill, on page 23 thereof, as follows: For pay of expenses of the Mackinac Agency, including pay of employees not otherwise provided for, $2,400; for purchase of site and construction of agency build- ing, $1,200; in all, $3,600. Item 69, printed bill, page 29, hearings, page 434, "For support and civilization of the Indians at Fort Belknap Agency, Montana." 42 INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILIj. Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justification appearmg in the printed report of the hearmgs before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: Support of Indians of Fort Belknap Agency, Mont. Fiscal year ending June 30, 1914; amount appropriated $20, OOP. 00 Fiscal year ended June 30, 1913: Amount appropriated 20, 000, 00 Amount expended 19, 136. 32 Unexpended balance 863. 68 ANALYSIS OF EXPENDITURES. Salaries, wages, etc $9, 253. 74 Traveling expenses 253. 15 Telegraph and telephone service 8. 15 Miscellaneous material 792. 46 Fuel 601.40 Wearing apparel 13. fip Forage 20. 58 Provisions 5, 791. 16 Equipment 1, 691. 63 Medical suppUes 341. 05 Care of insane 365. 00 Miscellaneous 4. 60 19,136.32 There are 1,183 Indians belonging to this superintendency, of which about 250 are old and indigent and unable to support themselves. The climate is very cold and the Indians live now very largely in tepees or little log houses, neither of which furnish adequate protection from the rigors of the winter. For want of proper housing, the sanitary conditions are very bad, and this, combined with the exposures, have created a large amount of sickness and large numbers of Indians are so broken and depleted physically as to be unable to support themselves. This reservation has not been allotted, but there are now about 9,600 acres under ditches, and it is estimated that 20,000 in all can be irrigated. Many of the families have made tentative selections but are unable to build houses, construct pastures, break up the land and cultivate the soil in such way as to become self-supporting. Of the amount now appropriated, $8,660 are used in the payment of employees. The remainder is used almost entirely in the purchase of subsistence for issue to th6 needy, in supplying fuel for the agency, feed for live stock, traveling expenses, etc., leaving about nothing to aid in establishing the Indians on their tentative allotments, building homes, and preparing themselves for self-support. The $5,000 additional asked for is intended for use in developing the industries of the Indians. The reservation was created by treaty and comprises some 500,000 acres, all of which is unallotted tribal land. Surveys have been in progress within the last few years preliminai'y to allotment work. The sum of S20,000 was allowed by the House, and upon motion of Senator Gronna the item was allowed for $20,000 (Senator Lane reserved the right to object), to read as follows: For support and civilization of Indians at Fort Belknap Agency, Montana, includ- ing pay of employees, $20,000. Item No. 70, page 29 of bill, hearings page 436, "Support of Indians at Flathead Agency, Montana." Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the jus- tification appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: INDIAN APPROPRIATION BIL,L. 43 Support of Indians of Flathead Agency, Mont. Fiscal year ending June 30, 1914, amount appropriated $12, 000. 00 Fiscal year ending June 30, 1913: Amount appropriated 9, 000. 00 Amount expended 7, 268. 32 Unexpended balance 1, 731. 68 ANALYSIS OF EXPENDITURES. Salaries, wages, etc 4, 314. 55 Traveling expenses 507. 52 Telegraph and telephone service 13. 51 Miscellaneous material 119. 68 Fuel 168.88 Mechanics' supplies 13. 96 Cleaning and toilet supplies 18. 47 Forage 741. 08 Provisions 909. 07 Equipment 255. 27 Medical supplies 175. 83 Miscellaneous 30, 50 7, 268. 32 There are 2,311 persons under the jurisdiction of this superintendency, all of whom have been aUottea. Of the amount now appropriated, $4,940 are used in the pay of employees and about $4,000 of other funds are used for pay of other employees, which should hereafter be charged to this fund by reason of the exhaustion of the fund from which they are now paid. The Government Has expended about $600,000, reimbursable appropriation, in the construction of irrigation systems on this reservation. These appropriations have so tied up the tribal fund that it will be some years before any surplus will be available. By reason of this it is necessary to ask for appropriations with which to maintain the agency administrative force, provide fuel, feed for stock, traveling expenses, etc. To cover all of these needs the $15,000 will be fully required. In a separate item $100,000, reimbursable, is asked for for the purpose of aiding and encouraging the Indians in estabhshing homes on their allotments, putting them under cultivation, and otherwise developing them in such way as to convert them into modem homes. The original reservation was created by treaty, and comprises something over 1,700,000 acres, of which 226,000 acres were allotted in severalty to 2,400 Indians. About 1,500,000 acres of surplus lands have heretofore been placed on the market. There are no tribal lands in this reservation, other than a limited area, that have not been disposed of, and a small reserve of timberlands for use of the Indians in common. Allowed by the House, $12,000. Upon motion of Senator Gionna the item was changed to read as follows: For support and civilization of Indians at Flathead Agency, Montana, including pay of employees, $15,000. Item No. 71, page 29 of bill, hearings, page 438, ''Support of Indians at Fort Feck Agency, Montana, $35,000." Allowed by the House, $30^000. Mr. Mentt justified this item, and also called attention to the justification appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: Support of Indians of Fort Peck Agency, Mont. Fiscal year ending June 30, 1914, amount appropriated $35, 000. 00 Fiscal year ended June 30, 1913: Amount appropriated 35, 000. 00 Amount expended. 31, 117. 29 Unexpended balance 3, 882. 71 44 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL, ANALYSIS OF EXPENDITURES. Salaries, wages, etc ! ^^^'^40 qk Traveling expenses. ^Jv ^ Miscellaneous material ^'V^* ^^ Stationery , ^ |^- J" FueL..... 1>110.70 Mechanics ' supplies ^^J' J: Wearing apparel _ ™' f* Forage 1» 105. 17 Provisions ^^> ^^^- ^^ Equipment - - : 2, 660. 22 Medical supplies - 585. 29 Tuition of pupils .:.:....... .30.00 Miscellaneous -25 Total - - - - 31; 117. 29 Indian population, 1,857. The amount asked for is the same as that granted in previous years. There are under this superin tendency 1,873 Indians. These have recently .been allotted, the surplus lands have been opened to homestead settlement. The Indians will have to be diverted from their old manner of life on the open ranges to more fixed habits of life, wherein they will be restricted to their individual holdings and will have to depend quite largely upon agriculture for their support. Of the amount appropriated for the current fiscal year, |13,760 are used to pay employees, about $15,000 are used in the purchase of subsistence for issue to sick, helpless and de-^ pendents, and from the remainder the miscellaneous expenses of the agency must be maintained, .including fuel for offices and employees, feed for live stock, traveling expenses, etc. There have been allotted to these Indians 71,000 acres of irrigable land, 212,000 of nonirrigable agricultural land, 424,800 acres of grazing land, and 15,893 acres of timber lands. Of the 212,000 acres of nonirrigable agricultural land, about iO,000 acres are under cultivation, and of the 71,000 acres of irrigable lands about 600 are under cultivation. As these Indians have heretofore depended almost wholly on live stock, and as no agricultural efforts have ever been put forth by them, until within the last four years, it is necessary to provide them with the heavier teams, with a full outfit of farm im- plements, seed, etc., and to provide a much increased force of men to work with them for purposes of instruction in agriculture, and to supervise their home building, etc. For the purpose of aiding and encouraging their industries by providing teams, implements, seed, building material, etc., a reimbursable appropriation of $100,000 is being asked for. The $35,000 now appropriated is all required to maintain the pur- poses set forth above and in case the special appropriation of $100,000 is granted, it will be more urgently needed to maintain and supervise the industrial activities that will arise from this other appropriation. Support of Indians of Fort Peck Agency, Mont. : This reservation embraced originally something over 1,800,000 acres. Two thousand Indians have been allotted 722,000 acres and the surplus lands, some- thing over 1,300,000 acres, were placed on the market as authorized by the act of May 30, 1908 (35 Stats. L., 558). Practically all the Indians belonging to the Fort Peck tribe have allotments except a few Indians bom since the closing of the work in the field . Upon motion of Senator Gronna the item was changed to read as follows : For support and civilization of Indians at Fort Peck Agency, Montana, including pay of employees, $35,000. Item No. 72, page 29 of bill, hearings, page 441, ''Support of Indians at BlacMeet Agency, Montana." Allowed by the ilouse, $15,000. Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justification appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: Support of Indians of Blackfeet Agency, Mont. : Fiscal year ending June 30, 1914, amount appropriated, $15,000. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 45 Fiscal year ended June 30, 1913, no appropriation. ' There are 2,842 Indians under the jurisdiction of this superintend ency, all of whom are allotted. At present the agency enfployee force is being paid from "Indian moneys, proceeds of labor," in the aggregate sum of $18,870. These funds are now Bo nearly exhausted that it will be necessary in the future to rely largely on appro- priations to maintain the agency administrative force, pro\dde fuel, feed, traveling expenses, etc. " -^ There have been expended up to the present time $600,000 in the construction of irrigation systems and still furtner funds will be required to complete them. These ai)propriations ate r^idibursablfe from future sales of tribal lands, consequently all tribal funds of that class are thus hypothecated. Effort is being made to get the Indians to establish themselves on their allotments, build houses and other permanent improvements, put them under cultivation, and so develop them as to convert them into modern homes. For this purpose, in a separate item, a reimbursable appropriation of $100,000 is being asked for. The $20,000 asked for in this item will all be needed to matain the agency expenses as set forth above, which will not only need to be maintained in full force, but as the activities of the Indians increase it is probable additional force will be required. The Blackfeet Reservation was created by treaty, and comprises 1,500,000 acres, of which 881,288 acres have been allotted in the field to 2,600 Indians. The allot- ments have not yet been approved, however, due to certain additional curative legislation amendatory of the act of March 1, 1907 (34 Stats. L., 1035), which it is deemed necessary to procure. The surplus lands, approximating 700,000 acres, have been classified and appraised with a view of placing them on the market, as authorized by the act of March 1, 1907. At the time of closing the work in the field all Indians then members of the tribe were allotted in severalty,' Upon motion of Senator Gronna, the item was changed to read as follows : For support and civilization of Indians at Blackfeet Agency, Montana, including pay of employees, $20,000. Upon motion of Senator Page, the committee adjourned to meet at 2 p. m. to-morrow. THURSDAY, MARCH 18, 1914. The committee met pursuant to adjournment at 2 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Myers, Lane, Thompson, Clapp, La Follette, Page, Townsend, Fall, and the chairman. Item No. 24, printed bill, page 15, for support and civihzation of Indians in Arizona and New Mexico, $330,000, House hearings, page 274, was approved for the fuU amount. Mr. Meritt justified this item, and also called attention to the justi- fication appearing in the printed report of the hearings before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: Support of Indians in Arizona and New Mexico. Fiscal year ending June 30, 1914, amount appropriated $330, 000. Fiscal year ended June 30, 1913: Amount appropriated •- ^^0, 000. 00 Amount expended -. ^0^> ^^^- ' ' Unexpended balance 20, 400. 23 ANALYSIS OP EXPENDITURES. Salaries, wages, etc - -^^I'sS'I^ Traveling expenses-- .- 647 40 . Transportation of supplies ^j- ^ Telegraph and telephone service ^^^- ^^ Heat, light, and power (service) ^^-^^ 46 INDIAN APPROPEIATION, BIUL. Miscellaneous material , ^» ^^5* o? ^el"""^;;;:;;:::;;;//;.::::::::::-/ ^Mil Mechanics' supplies ^^^* ^ Cleaning and toilet supplies ^2^- ^^ Wearing apparel ^^'' ^5 Forage 17,730.16 Provisions ^^> ^^1. 71 Equipment 79, 322. 10 Printing and advertising 73. 74 Medical supplies 6» 623. 92 Sheep dip 6, 365. 00 Land 180.00 Miscellaneous 2,278.17 Total 309, 599. 77 The amount asked for is the same as that granted in previous years. There are 22 superintendencies in these two States which share in this fund, with a total land area of 21,808,437 acres, and a total Indian population estimated at 63,230, divided as follows: Superintendency. Salt River Colorado River. Camp Verde. . . Fort Mojave JicarUla Mescalero Havasupai Blaibab Pima Fort Apache . . . San Carlos San Xavier Area. Popula- tion. Acres. 71,691 1,214 240,640 486 419 820 31, 328 761, 112 669 474,240 629 518 171 138, 240 93 367,351 6,096 1,681,920 2,397 1,834,240 2,362 155,954 4,907 Superintendency. Truxton Canyon. Moqui Navajo Pueblo Bonito... San Juan Western Navajo.. Pueblos: Santa Fe Albuquerque. Zuni Area. Acres. 730, 880 2,472,320 11,861,034 334,048 436,212 215,040 Popula- tion. 482 4,108 10,000 1,400 2,685 8,000 6,550 3,473 4,653 1,616 It will be noted that these Indians are scattered over a wide expanse of territory and they are largely engaged in stock raising. Though some of them reside in villages and till the soil, a large percentage are nomadic and travel over the country where pasturage may best be found for their flocks. To assist them in this industry a large sum has been expended for the purchase of stock, which has been issued to some of the Indians in order to assist in placing them on a self-sustaining basis. It will be necessary to continue to furnish other Indiana with stock. Many of the Indians in these States have their lands under irrigation and farm with considemble success, and the experiments made on some of the school farms have been of incalculable benefit to this section of the country in general. As those Indians who are trying to farm their lands do so with the crudest kind of farming implements, they should be furnished with modern implements and tools. It is estimated that this appropriation will be expended approximately as follows: Salaries $150, 000 Traveling expenses 7, 000 Subsistence of Indians 38, 000 Equipment and stock 85, 000 Transportation of supplies. 20, 000 Forage and fuel 1 30, 000 Total 330, 000 The amount asked for is as low an estimate as can be made for the necessities re- quired by the Indians of Arizona and New Mexico. INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. 47 SUPPORT OF INDIANS IN ARIZONA AND NEW MEXICO. The following statistical table will show in brief the population and area within these two States available for Indian use: ARIZONA. Reservation. Camp McDowell . Camp Verde Colorado River.. Fort Apache Fort Mojave Gila Bend Gila River Havasupal... Hopi (Moqui)... Kiabab Navajo i Papago Salt River San Carlos Walapai Total. Indiai]is. AUotted. 60 291 351 Unal- lotted. 216 417 506 2,351 844 4,696 169 4,068 289 10, 871 5,855 952 2,353 483 34,070 Total. 216 417 506 2.351 844 4.696 169 4,068 289 10,931 6,146 952 2,353 483 34, 421 Area (acres). Allotted. 9,600 41, 606 51,206 Unal- lotted. 24,971 240,640 1,681,920 31,328 10,231 358, 789 518 2,472,320 138,240 9,433,114 136,319 46, 720 1,834,240 730,880 17, 140, 230 Total. 24,971 240.640 1,681,920 31,328 10,231 358, 789 518 2, 472, 320 138,240 9,442,714 177,925 46,720 1,834,240 730, 880 17,191,436 NEW MEXICO. Jicarilla 797 52 452 9,472 6,706 367 849 452 11,476 6,706 367 354, 294 407,300 474,240 2,257,920 1,008,346 138,240 761,594 Mescalero 474, 240 Navajo ^ 2,004 319, 363 2,577,283 Pueblo 1,008,346 Ute Southern s ^ 138,240 ' Total 2,801 17,049 19,850 673,657 4,286,046 4,959,703 1 Partly in Utah and New Mexico. 2 Partly in Arizona and Utah. 3 Partly in Colorado. Item No. 84, bill, page 31, hearings, page 480, ''Support of Rocky Boy's Band of Chippewa Indians, $10,000." Mr. Meritt justified this item and also called attention to the justi- fication appearing iq the printed report of the hearing before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: There are approximately 500 homeless, wandering Indians in Montana, about 250 of whom claim membership with Rocky Boy's band. Investigations conducted during the past year indicate that a suitable site in Montana may be obtained to pro- vide a reservation for these Indians. The sum of $10,000 will be required to provide the necessary employees and for expenses in connection with the administration of a reservation for these Indians when established. Although many of the Indians belonging to this band are understood to belong to the Cree Tribe, the people in the State of Montana bring the condition of these Indians to the attention of the department in such a manner that it is absolutely necessary for it to take steps to provide for their needs during the winter months. No allotments in severalty have been made to members of this band. Arrange- ments were made a few years ago to locate them on the Blackfeet Reservation, but the land designated for them there is unsuitable for agricultural purposes, and owing to the high altitude and severe winters it is impossible for these Indians to make a living from these lands. Bills have been pending with a view of providing a reserva- tion for these Indians elsewhere. Upon motion of Senator Page, was approved for the full amount. Item No. 87, page 487, ''Pay of employees and expenses, Omaha and Winnebago Reservations, Nebraska" (p. 24 under the title ^'Nebraska"). 48 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. This item was explained at length to the committee by Mr. Meritt, and attention was called by him to the justification appeanng m the printed report of the hearmgs before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, reading in part as follows: Pay of employees, Winnebago Agency, Nebr. Fiscal year ending June 30, 1914, amount appropriated, $4,040. Fiscal year ended June 30, 1913, no appropriation. There are- approximately 1,300 Omahas and 1,100 Winnebagos under the jurisdic- tion of the superintendent in charge. These Indians are without sufficient funds to provide for the necessary clerical help to administer their affairs and therefore, in order to maintain these agencies and look after the welfare of the Indians, this appro- priation is necessary. The superintendent at the present time is carried as a school employee and the item under consideration should be amended by striking out the words "superin- tendent and" so that the former arrangement may be continued. A school is being operated under this jurisdiction and it is therefore proper to carry the superintendent as a school employee as is done at the present. The Omaha Reservation was created by treaty and comprised originally about 258,000 acres, of which 123,000 acres were deeded to the United States for the Winne- bago Indians under authority found in the act of June 22, 1874 (18 Stat. L., 170). Of the remaining area 130,522 acres were allotted in severalty to 1,458 Indians, leaving about 4,500 acres of surplus land, the sale of which was authorized by the act of May 11, 1912 (37 Stat. L., 111). Of the lands bought for the Winnebago Indians 122,254 acres were allotted to 1,558 Indians, the small remainder being reserved for school and administrative purposes. Mr. H. Chase addressed the committee to the general effect that they have been endeavoring to trace the expenditure of the money, amounting to $100,000 belonging to the Omaha and Winnebago tribes, and wishes to know if the amount involved in item 87 is being mtended to be reimbursed by the tribes out of their funds. Mr. Page asked Mr. Chase if he approves of the way in which funds are appropriated and expended by tne department. The speaker stated that so far as the Indians are concerned whose lands are unallotted, it would be a good thing; that if the appropriation of $6,040 is not intended to be reimbursable, but is gratuitous, they have no objection thereto. Mr. Chase also stated that the continuation of the present superintendent, who resides some 10 miles away from one of the reservations, is not good policy. Mr. Meritt says that he agrees to a large extent with what Mr. Chase has said; they have a condition that can not be justified. That he is trying to remedy it, and it will be remedied within the next 30 days. Senator Myers moved that the item be approved. Unanimously adopted. Upon the suggestion of Senator Myers, a Mr. Perrin, interested in amendment offered by Senator Myers, addressed the committee in support of amendment proposed by Senator Myers, appropriating $100,000 for the Blackfeet Agency, Mont., and in opposition to the authority of Mr. Hamilton. Item 88, bill page 31, hearings, page 490. ^^ Support of Indians in Nevada, $25,000." Mr. Meritt stated that he would ask for but $18,500, and, upon motion, it was unanimously agreed to approve this item for the sum of $18,500, as allowed by the House. Item 96, hearings, page 514 (disallowed by the House). ^'Pay of employees and expenses of New York Agency, $2,500." This item was allowed for the sum estimated ($2,500) and should foUow line 21, page 33, of printed bill. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 49 Item 98, page 35 of bill, hearings, page 518. ''Support of Sioux of Devils Lake, North Dakota, $5,000," was approved for the full amount, $5,000. Item 99, page 35 of bill, hearings, page 530. ''Support of Indians of Fort Berthold Agency, North Dakota, $15,000." This was approved for the full amount, $15,000. Item 100, page 35 of bill, hearings, page 532. "Support of Chip- pewas, Turtle Mountain Band, North Dakota, $15,000." This item was approved for the fuU amount. Item 105, bill page 36, hearings, 550. "Support of Wichitas and afiihated bands, Oklahoma, $5,000." This item was approved for the fuU amount, upon motion of Senator Page. Item 108, page 38 of bill, hearings, page 556. "Support of Chey- ennes and Arrapahoes, Oklahoma, $35,000." Approved for the full amount. Item 109, printed bill, page 38, hearings, page 559. "Support of Kansas Indians, Oklahoma, $1,500." Approved for full amount. Item 110, bill page 38, hearings, 559. "Support of Eackapoos. Oklahoma, $3,000." Approved for $2,000. Item 111, printed bill, page 38, hearings, page 560. "Support of Poncas, Oklahoma, $8,000." Approved for fufl amount. Item 115, page 570 of hearings. "Pay of employees Sac and Fox Agency, Oklahoma, $3,000." Upon motion, this was allowed for $2,060, the amount appropriated the previous year. Item 116, page 570 of hearings. Upon motion, the item "Pay of employees, Seneca Agency, Oklahoma, $2,500," was allowed in the sum of $1,500. Item 127, page 48 of bill, hearings, page 606. "Support of Indians of Klamath Agency, Oregon $6,000," was allowed for the full sum. Item 128, page 48 of bill, hearings, page 607. "Support of Indians Warm Springs Agency, Oregon, $4,000," was allowed in the sum of $4,000. Senator La FoUette moved that the chairman employ a shorthand reporter to report the proceedings of the committee. The chairman stated that he was without authority to employ one. Upon motion of Mr. La Follette the chairman was requested to prepare a resolution to be submitted to the Senate providing for authority of the chairman to employ a stenographer to report the proceedings of the committee during all the hearings of the appropriation bill and during this ses- sion of the Sixty- third Congress. Item 129, page 49 of bill, hearings, page 609, "Support of Indians of Umatilla Agency, Oregon, $4,000." ifllowed in the sum of $3,000. Item 131, bill, page 49, hearings, page 615, "Support of Indians of Grand Ronde and Siletz Agencies, Oregon, $4,000." Upon motion this item was allowed in the sum of $4,000. Item 140, bill, page 52, hearings, page 639, "Support of Sioux Yankton Tribe, South Dakota, $14,000." Allowed for the full amount. Item 145, bill, page 54, hearings, page 649, "Relief of Indians in Utah, $15,000." Upon motion this item was allowed in the sum of $10,000, the sum allowed by the House committee. 39746— PT 1—14 4 50 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Item 150, bill, page 56, hearings, page 663, ''Support of D'Wamish and other allied tribes, Washington, $8,000." Allowed m the sum of $7,000, the same amount allowed by the House committee. Item 151, bill, page 56, hearmgs, page 664, ''Support of Makahs, Washington, $2,000.'' AUowed m the lull amount. Item 152, bill, page 56, hearmgs, page 665, "Support of Quin- aielts and Quillehutes, Washington, $1,000." Allowed m the full amount. Item 153, biU page 56, hearings, 666. "Support of Indians, Yakima Agency, $3,000." Allowed in the full amount. Item 154, bill page 56, hearmgs page 668. "Support of Indians of ColviUe and Puyallup Agencies, and Joseph's Band of Nez Perces, Washington, $13,000." Allowed for the full amount asked by the committee. Item 160, bill page 59, hearings page 682. "Support of Chippewas of Lake Superior, Wisconsin, $10,000." This item was allowed in the sum of $7,000. Item 161, biU page 59, hearings page 685. "Support of Pottawato- mies, Wisconsin, $7,000." Allowed in the full sum asked for. Item 164, biU page 61, hearings page 692. "Support of Shoshones in Wyoming, $15,000." Allowed in full by the committee. TREATY ITEMS. Item 36, biU page 20, hearings page 327. "FuMUng treaties with Navajo schools, $100,000." This item was approved for the full amount after discussion by Mr. Meritt and various members of the committee as to its feasibility, Senator Lane particularly calling attention to the necessity for a style of schoohng which would adapt itself to the Indians' nomadic habits instead of housing them in small schoolhouses. Item 51, bill page 22, hearings page 381. "Support of Bannocks, Idaho, $5,000." Allowed in the lull amount. Item 52, bill page 22, hearings page 382. "Support of Coeur d'Alenes, Idaho, $3,000." Approved for $3,000. Item 60, bill page 23, hearings page 403. "Support of Sacs and Foxes of the Missouri, $200." Allowed for the full amount. Item 64, biU page 23, hearings page 414. "Support of Chippewas of the Mississippi, $4,000." Allowed for the full amount. Item 77, bill page 30, hearings page 465. "Fulfilling treaties with Crows, Montana, $6,000." Approved for the full amount, $6,000. Item 78, bill page 30, hearmgs page 466. "Support of Northern Cheyennes and Arapahoes, $85,000." Approved for the full amount, being the sum allowed by the House. Item 94, bill page 33, hearings page 510. "Fulfilling treaties with Senecas, of New York, $6,000." AUowed for the full amount. Item 95, biU page 33, hearings page 511. "Fulfilling treaties with Six Nations, New York, $4,500." Allowed for the full amount. Item 113, bill page 39, hearings page 566. "Fulfilling treaties with the Pawnee Indians, Oklahoma, $47,100." Approved for the full amount. Item 114, bill page 39, hearings page 569. "Support of Quapaws, Oklahoma, $1,500." Approved for the full amount. INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 51 Items 125, bill page 46, hearings page 601. " Fulfilling treaties with Choctaws, Oklahoma, 110,520." Approved in the full amount. Item 138, bill page 50, hearings page 631. ''Suppol't of Sioux of different tribes, subsistence and civilization, $307,000. After dis- cussion of the item and indorsement thereof by Mr. Meritt it was approved in the full amount. Senator Clapp at this point offered the following amendment. On page 18, between lines 22 and 23, add the following: For the employment of high-school teachers at White Earth, Minnesota, for instruc- tion open to the children of the Chippewa Indians in the State of Minnesota, $5,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, to be used under rules to be prescribed by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Upon motion this amendment was unanimously adopted. Item 139, page 52 of bill, hearings, page 634, ''Education, Sioux Nation, $200,000." This item was allowed in the full amount, Mr. Meritt explaining the justice of the appropriation to the com- mittee at length. Senator La FoUette offered the following: Respecting the amend- ment which was offered on March 16, after line 7, page 9, and referred to the department, insert the following: And provided further, That no money appropriated herein shall be expended on and after January first, nineteen hundred and fifteen, for the employment of any farmer or expert farmer whose salary shall be in excess of $60 per month unless he shall first have procured and filed with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs a certificate of competency setting forth his ability to instruct others in the art of agriculture, or stock grazing (raising), as the case may be, such certificate to be certified and issued to him by the president of the State agricultural college or university of the State in which his services are to be rendered, or by the president of the State agricultural college or university of an adjoining State, and appointments to said positions may be made without reference to the civil-service laws under such rules, regulations, and conditions as the Commissioner of Indian Affairs may prescribe. Senator Lane stated that he reserved the right to object to any appropriation allowed by the committee at a later day of the hearing or upon the floor. Upon motion of Senator Page, it was unanimously agreed that when the committee adjourned it should adjourn to 2 p. m. to-morrow, and that this hearing do adjourn precisely at 4 o'clock to-day. At 4 o'clock the committee adjourned, to meet at 2 p. m. to-morrow, March 19. WEDNESDAY, MARCH 18, 1914. The committee adjourned until to-morrow at 2 p. m. without the transaction of any business, as the members were absent on the floor of the Senate. THURSDAY, MARCH 19, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Ashurst (chairman). Lane, Robinson, Clapp, Page, and Townsend. STATEMENT OF MR. C. B. COVEY, NAVAJO SPRINGS, COLO. Mr. Covey. I am superintendent in charge of the Southern Ute Agency, in the extreme corner of Colorado, adjoining the Navajo Reservations on two sides, and a great many of these Navajos are 52 INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. really nearer to our agency than to their own. I think the Navajo Indians are in many respects the greatest Indians in the United States. Reports have gone out that they have supported themselves almost independently of Government aid; but they did receive some Gov- ernment aid in the old days, and they have taken advantage of this property, invested it, taken care of it, because they had to or starve to death, and I want to say to you tiiat they, did starve down there a few years ago. When this agency was estabUshed at San Juan, I am told by men in position to know that those Indians were in a deplorable condition, and since tliis agency has been estabUshed their condition has rapidly improved. None of them are now suffering for the necessaries of Ufe, and they are most progressive. Those Navajo Indians, as I have seen them, have all been educated, and they have the finest reservation school, so far as my experience goes, in the Indian Service, at Ship Rock. The children there simply would do credit to any white school in the work they do, and if that school is not a success there is none that is. Senator Page. You beheve, then, in the education of the Indians ? Mr. Covey. I certainly do. They have planned their irrigation on a lot of their land and divided it up into small tracts and put these educated Indians on it, and it is not going to be many years before they can not drive their sheep all over the reservation. They will have to live under different conditions then. Unless they are edu- cated they can not do that. Those Navajos will go to work for anybody. They overrun our agency. We have a little fund to pay Indians for labor, and we have to fight them away to keep them from coming there to work, and they are anxious to work, and the education is not hurting them a bit. Those who are educated are making the most success. As Sena- tor Lane said, it takes about a square mile to support one sheep, and I do not believe the same number of white people could live in that country, and I believe the estimates of 7,000 that Mr. Meritt makes Mr. Meritt. Between 5,000 and 6,000. Mr. Covet. I think that is low. I think 10,000 would be nearer like it. There are thousands of Indian children who never saw a white man; do not know what he looks like. And they certainly deserve all the supjDort they can receive. They have 30,000 Indians there, more than all the rest of those States together, I guess, in the West. I do not want to say this to oppose anybody, but simply because I have been all through that country and know those people are deserving. Senator Lane. Comparatively speaking, what percentage of tuber- culosis do you have on your reservation ? Mr. Covey. The last report was none, but we now have one or two cases. Senator Lane. You are very free of it? Mr. Covey. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. How about trachoma? Mr. Covey. A very high percentage of trachoma among the Utes. Senator Lane. How is it among the Navajos? Mr. Covey. Not so high, I think, but bad. Senator Page. I move that we appropriate the $100,000. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 53 Mr. Meritt. I want to say that I think this is among the most needed items in the Indian appropriation bill. (The_ motion was agreed to.) SUPPORT OF BANNOCKS, IDAHO, The Chairman. The next item is No. 51, ''For support of the Bannocks.'' Senator Page. That is a treaty obligation and has been allowed at $5,000 a year, and I move to approve that item. (The motion was agreed to.) SUPPORT OF COEUR d'aLENES, IDAHO. The Chairman. The next item is for the Coeur d'Alenes in Idaho, $3,000. Mr. Meritt. That is the usual appropriation made to carry out this treaty. Senator Townsend. What is that $5,200 between those two in the estimate in the combination bill ? Mr. Meritt. That is a treaty item. That amount is an error of the printer. Senator Townsend. $3,000 is the right item ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Myers. I move that it be 'allowed. (The motion was agreed to.) SUPPORT OF sacs AND FOXES OF THE MISSOURI. Senator Page. The $200 appropriation on the next page, item No. 60, is a treaty obligation. I move it be adopted. (The motion was agreed to.) SUPPORT OF CHIPPEWAS OF THE MISSISSIPPI. The Chairman. The next item is for the support of a school for the Chippewas of the Mississippi iu Minnesota, on page 23, a $4,000 item, No. 61. Senator Page. The Chippewas of the Mississippi m Minnesota. Brother Clapp has something to say about that. Mr. Meritt. That is a regular treaty item, Mr. Chairman, and this appropriation is used for educational purposes in connection with the support of the White Earth Boarding School. Senator Clapp. In that connection, Mr. Meritt, I am going to offer an amendment. Last year we put an item in the bill for $4,000 for the higher education of 10 Indian boys. Now, it seems that it would be a good plan, instead of having that for 10 Indian boys, to have $4,000, or possibly $5,000, appropriated for the employment of high- school teachers and establish the school right there at White Earth. The buildings, I understand, are fully adequate to that use. Mr. Meritt. I agree with you. Senator Clapp, that that would be an improvement over last year's appropriation. We did not include that appropriation last year in our estimates. Senator Clapp. I know that. 54 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. We have had some difficulty in selecting the pupils. There has been more or less controversy among the Indians as to who should get the benefit of this appropriation. Senator Clapp. Then I offer an amendment at that point adding $5,000 for the employment of high-school teachers at White Earth for the use of the Chippewas of Minnesota. That would meet your approval ? Mr. Meritt. We would be glad to see that item included in the bill, Senator. (The item No. 64 was agreed to.) Senator Townsend. I do not get it through my head yet what you want to do. Senator Clapp. Senator Clapp. Last year we appropriated $4,000 of their money to establish a boarding school and picked out 10 young fellows and sent them away to school. But that leads to a great deal of dissatis- faction. They can only send 10, and a great many more want to go. Senator Townsend. Did you send the 10 ? Senator Clapp. Yes. It was suggested this year at first to change that to six boys and four girls, because no girl could go under that. With the same amount of money, or $1,000 more, in the discretion of the department, if it needs it, to employ high-school teachers at White Earth, where the buildings are, and the buildings are adequate, it would then allow the children from these different tribes to come there, boys and girls, indiscriminately, and would not be a limitation on the number, and in my judgment that would be desirable, and I am glad that Mr. Meritt agrees with me. I will prepare the proper amendment in time. FULFILLING TREATIES WITH CROWS, MONTANA. The Chairman. The next will be item No. 77, fulfilling treaties with the Crows, Montana, $6,000, page 30 of the bill. Mr. Meritt. It is a regular treaty item, Mr. Chairman, which we have requested for a number of years, and we should like to halve the item appropriated for this year. The Chairman. It is estimated for $6,000; the House approved $6,000. Is there any objection to that ? The item was agreed to. SUPPORT OF northern CHEYENNES AND ARAPAHOES. The Chairman. The next item is No. 78, page 30 of the bill, sup- port of the Northern Cheyennes and Arajpahoes, $85,000. Mr. Meritt. That is a treaty item, Mr. Chairman, which appro- priation is used for the education and civiHzation of the Indians men- tioned. The Government is under treaty obUgations to provide this appropriation. The Chairman. How do you arrive at those figures? Mr. Meritt. The terms of the treaty are set out on pages 466 and 467 of the House hearings, and are also found in article 5, of the agreement of February 28, 1877. The Chairman. I do not care any further, I just wanted to know how they reached those sums. INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. 55 Mr. Meritt. The Government agreed to give these Indians an education and also to furnish certain articles each year. The Chairman. It takes that much each year to comply with the treaty stipulation ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Is there any objection to that or discussion thereon ? (The item was agreed to.) FULFILLING TREATIES WITH SENEGAS OF NEW YORK, The Chairman. The next is item No. 94, page 33 of the bill, ful- filling treaties with the Senecas of New York, $6,000, estimated for, $6,000. Senator Page. That is a treaty obligation. (The item was agreed to.) FULFILLING TREATIES WITH SCX NATIONS, NEW YORK. The Chairman. The next is item No. 95, fulfilling treaties with Six Nations, New York, $4,500. Senator Page. That is the same. The Chairman. In the absence of objection, it will be agreed to: (The item was agreed to.) fulfilling treaties with pawnees, OKLAHOMA. The Chairman. The next item is No. 113, page 39 of the bill; fulfilling treaties with the Pawnees, Oklahoma, $47,100. Mr. Meritt. The same amount, Mr. Chairman, has been appro- priated for a number of years and we are under treaty obligations to provide this appropriation. Senator Page. I suppose the treaty does not specify an absolute sum, but it covers a class of work which calls for this amount. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The treaty is found in the House hearings, beginning with page 568. Senator Page. I move that we adopt it. (The motion was agreed to.) Senator Page. I move that we adopt the next item. SUPPORT OF QUAPAWS, OKLAHOMA. The Chairman. Item No. 114, $1,500 for the support of the Quapaws, Oklahoma. The Senator from Vermont moves that be adopted. (The motion was 'agreed to.) fulfilling treaties with CHOCTAWS, OKLAHOMA. The Chairman. The next item is No. 125, fulfilling treaties with the Choctaws, Oklahoma, $10,520, page 46 of the bill. Senator Page. You ask for more there, Mr. Meritt. Where do you propose to put the additional sum ? Mr. Meritt. We are asking the same amount as last year. 56 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Page. That is not the way it appears here. Mr. Meritt. That is an error. Senator Page. If it was the same last year, I move that we adopt it, in the amount of $10,520. (The motion was agreed to.) SUPPORT AND SUBSISTENCE; DIFFERENT TRIBES SIOUX. The Chairman. Item No. 138, ' 'Support of Sioux, different tribes, subsistence and civiUzation, $307,000," found on page 631 of the hearings, page 50 of the bill. Mr. Meritt. This is in compliance with the treaty with the Sioux Indians. We are asking for the same amount this year that was appropriated last year, and this money is used to support those Indians and provide educational faciUties for them. Senator Lane. Have they a fund? Mi. Meritt. They have certain funds of their own, Senator. Senator Lane. Is this taken out of money we have obtained for the sale of their lands ? IMr. Meritt. The Sioux Indians have ceded certain lands and the Government has entered into certain treaty obhgations with them. Senator Lane. Is this perpetual, or how long does it run? Mr. Meritt. It runs until they become civihzed. We have authority of law to commute these treaty provisions, but it requires a very large appropriation to do that, and for that reason these treaty items have been continued in the bill. Senator Page. Do you have to support those Indians out there largely by giving them actual food ? . Mr. Meritt. We have to give some of the Indians food. To the old Indians we issue rations. In fact, I am inchned to beheve there are too many rations issued to some of those Sioux Indians, especially beef. They are ^reat beef -eating Indians. They have had beef so long that they thmk they are entitled to it as a matter of right and privilege. Senator Page. For subsistence of the Sioux, other than the Rose- bud, Chey^enne River, and Standing Rock Tribes, and for the purpose of their civilization, $200,000. You say for the purpose of civiliza- tion. Is that largely for subsistence, or what does that cover ? Mr. Meritt. A good part of that is for subsistence. You will notice in the analysis of expenditures we use $181,863.87 for pro- visions for those Indians. On each one of these items we have an analysis showing how we have expended the funds. Senator Page. Is anything used for the education of those Indians ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; those Indians receive money for educa- tional purposes. Senator Page. That is outside of this estimate here; where does it come in ? Mr. Meritt. There is another appropriation for that purpose. Senator Page. Is it specific as to this agnecy, or do you take it from the general fund ? . Mr. Meritt. We use an appropriation of $200,000 for the educa- tion of the Sioux Indians. There is an item here, the next item^ which reads : For support and maintenance of day and industrial schools among the Sioux In- diana, including the erection and repairs of school buildings, 1200,000. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 57 Senator Page. That means one-half million dollars, $507,000, for the Sioux. How many Sioux are there in aU ? Mr. Meritt. About 25,000 Sioux Indians, I think, altogether. To be exact, we have the Indian population here in the Sioux country: Cheyenne , River Sioux, 2,618- Lower Yanktoa Sioux, 978; Flan- dreau Sioux, 654; Lower Brule Sioux, 472; Ogallala Sioux, 6,940; Rosebud Sioux, 5,391; Standing Rock Sioux, 3,415; Santee Sioux, 1,117; total, 22,125. Senator Townsend. We are under treaty obhgations to pay this, as I understand ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Page. That is something over $20 apiece that we pay out for those Indians, men, women and children. That is one of the largest items, is it not, of your appropriation biU ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; this is one of the largest items in the bill. Senator Page. Have they a large school there? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; a number of schools. Senator Page. Where are the large schools? Mr. Meritt. There is a large boarding school at Pine Ridge Res- ervation; a boarding school at Rosebud Reservation, and other Sioux reservations have good schools; also there are a number of day schools. We are giving those Sioux Indians splendid educa- tional facilities. Senator Page. We can not get along with less than this sum in order to carry out our honorable treaty obligations, can we ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; we need every dollar of this appropriation. We gradually reduced the appropriation from about $500,000 to $307,000, and we have gone over our books this year thinking we might reduce it stiU further, but we came to the conclusion that it would be inadYisable this year to ask less than the amount appro- priated last 3^ear. Senator Townsend. Are the terms of this treaty such that you can construe them to convey a less benefit than is here set forth ? Mr. MjPRiTi. The treaties do not state the exact amount of money to be given in each year; they are in general terms, and in order to comply with those general terms, support, and civilization and ^education Senator Townsend. Just briefly tell how you could manage with $500,000 one year and $307,000 another year ? Mr. Meritt. Mr. Burke of the House Indian Committee, was of the opinion that the Sioux Indians should use their own funds so far as possible, and in view of the fact that the Rosebud, Cheyenne River, and Standing Rock tribes have funds available, we ehminated those tribes from the benefit of this treaty. I think that that is a correct policy. When Indians have large funds to their credit in the Treasury the Government should not provide gratuity appropriations. But we are under treaty obligations to provide these Indians with certain privileges, and the ouier Sioux tribes have not funds available to supply them with those needs, and it is necessary that we make an appropriation in order to fulfill the treaty. Senator Page. No part of it is reimbursable ? Mr. Meritt. This is a gratuity appropriation. Senator Page. How long will this have to continue in order to keep our good faith with the Indians ? 58 INDIAIs^ APPEOPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. The appropriation should gradually decrease m amount, and in ten years time I should say that this appropriation should be discontinued, except to meet the needs of the old Indians. The Chairman. The aged and infirm Indians ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; but we are in favor of requiring Indians to make use of their property and become self-supporting at the very earhest possible day, and that is one reason why we are asking for the reimbursable appropriations already allowed by this committee. Senator Page. Here are memoranda by Mr. Burke. Is this correct ? One of the difficulties with the Sioux is the climatic conditions. For three year& there has been practically nothing raised in the Sioux country. Mr. Meritt. Yes; they had a drought there for three years and were not able to make very much on their farms. That is an unusual condition in that country, and that is one reason why we feel that we should not reduce the appropriation this next year, because there are a good many needy and old Indians in the Sioux country, and because of the large Sioux population we thought that we would need this amount. Senator Page. I see you have got $638,000 in school plants. Da those plants belong to the Federal Government or belong to the Sioux ? Mr. Meritt. They belong to the Federal Government. STATEMENT OF MR. ROBERT J. HAMILTON. The Chairman. Relative to which item do you wish to speak ? Mr. Hamilton. My authority as a delegate of the Blackfeet In- dians has been questioned and I msh to say this, that my credentials have been filed in the Indian Office, and I wish them filed with the committee, and my feUow tribesmen who have raised this question can do the same at any session of your committee. Senator Lane. This gentlemen represents the Blackfeet Indians here. He claims that he has a large indorsement there from the Blackfeet, appointing him their delegate, and that this other gentle- man from the Blackfeet Tribe a while ago said there were very few of them who gave him authorit}^ to speak for them; that he was the correct representative, and he wants to straighten it out. Senator Page. Do I understand that it is a treaty obligation of the United States to furnish the vSioux Indians with their provisions for the year in case of drought ? Mr. Meritt. We are under treaty obligations to see that those In- dians become civiHzed. Senator Page. That means we must see that they are not starved. We have undertaken quite a burden, evidently. Mr. Meritt. The Sioux Indians have ceded to us a very large area in that western country, and if the Government should pay them the real value of the lands they have ceded, it would take a considerable amount of the cash in the Treasury Senator La Follette. Yes; and they could take care of them- selves ? Senator Clapp. I move to approve the item. The Chairman. The Senator from Minnesota moves that the item of $307,000 be approved. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 59 (The motion was agreed to.) Senator Clapp. Before taking up the next item, while the assistant commissioner is here and we are on the subject of education, Mr. Meritt, I have prepared the following amendment to page 18 of the Senate bill between lines 22 and 23. Insert: For the employment of high-school teachers at White Earth, Minnesota, for instruc- tion open to the children of the Chippewa Indians of the State of Minnesota, five thousand dollars, or so much thereof as may be necessai-y to be used under rules to be prescribed by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Mr. Meritt. That language is acceptable to us. Senator Page. There is no hne 22 or 23 on page 18. Senator Clapp. Of the Senate bill. Senator. Senator Page. Where will it appear in this bill here ? The Chairman. It wiU be on page 23 of the comparison, wiU it not ? Senator Clapp. The record should read page 18 of the Senate bill, between lines 22 and 23. The Chairman. Those in favor of the adoption of this amendment proposed by the Senator from Minnesota will say ''Aye," and those opposed ''No.^' The amendment was agreed to. ^ EDUCATION, SIOUX NATION. The Chairman. The next item wiU be item No. 139, page 52 of the comparison, ^'Education of the Sioux Nation, 1200,000," discussed on page 634 of the hearings. Senator Page. I move its adoption. Senator Lane. Just a moment before you adopt it; I want to ask the commissioner's representative here where all those analyses — there is one, I see, on page 629. Does that apply to the Sioux Indians ? Mr. Meritt. You will find the analyses for tlie Sioux appropria- tions beginning on page 631, That is an analysis of the $307,000. The justification also contains the various treaty provisions. Senator Lane. How many students are there — how many school children are there ? Mr. Meritt. The analysis of this particular item begins on page 634. Senator Lane. How many school children are there shown there on page 634 ? Senator Page. Are we going to adjourn at 4 p. m., as heretofore? The Chairman. Whatever the committee wishes to do. Senator Page. I move that when we do adjourn it be until 2 o'clock to-morrow afternoon. The Chairman. The Senator from Vermont moves that when the committee adjourns it be until 2 o'clock p. m. to-morrow. (The motion was agreed to.) Senator Page. I make the further motion that we adjourn at 4 p. m. to-day. (The motion was agreed to.) Senator Lane. How many of those pupils are taken care of? Mr. Meritt. We have 59 day and 7 boarding schools, with a com- bined enroUment of 2,700 pupils. They are paid from this fund sal- aries of 164 employees, amounting to $81,640. 60 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Lane. Is this Rapid City (S. Dak.) Indian School one of them? That is on page 629. Where does that come in ? Mr. Meritt. That is what is known as a nonreservation boarding school, and is specifically appropriated for in the bill. Senator Lane. It is not considered in here ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Lane. I noticed on that and on another here that the average number of children in that item was given, the average attend- ance as 253 — 31 employees? Mr. Meritt. That is a boarding school. Senator. Senator Lane. Yes; which is one employee to every eight students ? Mr. Meritt. That is too many employees. Senator Lane. I notice that in another case, too, and seven in another case. Mr. Meritt. I might say. Senator, in going over the list of the various nonreservation schools we found that there were too many employees, and we have gotten up a statement of the number of employees at each nonreservation school, the salaries paid, the number of pupils, the per capita cost of those pupils, and we have sent that statement out to the superintendents and called on them- for reports and justifications m order that existing conditions might be remedied. Senator La Follette. We had before the committee the other day an amendment providing for the qualifications of the Indian farmers — members of the committee will remember, I thmk. I introduced an amendment, and it was referred to the Indian Commissioner's Office for revision, and I now offer it in the form in which they have approved it. The Chairman. The Senator from Wisconsin now proposes the following amendment, which I will read. Line 7, page 9, insert: *' Provided further, That no money appropriated herein shall be expended on and after January first, nineteen hundred and fifteen, for the employment of any farmer or expert farmer whose salary shall be in excess of $60 per month unless he shall first have procured and filed with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs a certificate of com- petency setting forth his ability to instruct others in the art of agriculture or stock grazing, as the case may be, such certificate to be certified and issued to him by the president of the State agricultural college or university of the State in which his services are to be rendered, or by the president of the State agricultural college or university of an adjoining State, and appointments to said positions may be made without reference to the civil-service laws, under such rules, regulations, and condi- tions as the Commissioner of Indian Affairs may prescribe." Senator Clapp. I move its adoption. (The motion was agreed to.) Senator Lane. In this item, which calls for $200,000 for the support of schools for Sioux Indians, will there be an average of only eight pupils to each employee - seven or eight ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; we are objecting to the condition that exists at Rapid City. The per capita cost is too high for that school. Senator Lane. I notice in several other cases here some worse than that. One is one to seven. You say you are objecting to it. Is it not within your power to stop it? Mr. Meritt. We have called on the superintendent for a report on that case, with the intention of remedying the condition. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 61 Senator Lane. Have you in these others ? Mr. Meritt. In all cases where the per capita cost is considered high. I will bring you a table we have gotten up on that. Senator Lane. Then you have looked into this. What do you consider to be about the right number proportionally speaking ? Mr. Meritt. At the nonreservation schools ? Senator Lane. This is a boarding school here ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, a nonreservation boarding school. Senator Lane. What is the right average, what is it among white boarding schools, do you know? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Probably about 10 or 12 pupils to each em« ployee. Senator Lane. Take White Earth as one of them, 19 employees to 130 average attendance of students, that is an average of one to each six — not quite seven students. Senator Clapp. That does not mean teachers. Senator Lane. Employees on the pay roll attending to that school. Mr. Meritt. That statement is misleading— it means the number of employee at the agency. Senator Lane. Let me read what it says on page 414, ''Analysis of expenditures." Salaries, wages, etc., $3,948.89. This appropriation has been and is to be used at the White Earth Boarding SchooL Statistical statement White Earth Boarding School for year ending June SO, 1913. Value of school plant '. $38, 436 Number of buildings 14 Average attendance 130 Enrollment 166 Capacity 130 Number of employees , 19 Total salaries $10, 580 During the fiscal year 1913 the $4,000 was expended as follows: Administration, superintendent's salary $2, 100 Salaries of other employees (carpenter, shoe and harness maker, and engineer) . 1, 900 Total 4, 000 The additional sums necessary for the support of the White Earth School are pro- vided for from other funds. Senator Clapp. That $1,900 for additional employees means employees of the agency and not teachers at the school. Senator Lane. Is that right ? Senator Clapp. There is no question about that. It is unfor- tunately worded. Senator Lane. Is that right, Mr. Meritt? Mr. Meritt. That is my understanding. On page 415 of the hearings you will find the table of the employees at the White Earth Agency. Senator Lane. It is figured into the school expenses. We have made appropriations for the support and maintenance of these Indians, figured on the number of employees, given here, and we have another item for another appropriation for other employees. 62 [NDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. Are they included twice in this? Are they reckoned with once as charged to the schools Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Lane. How could we separate the appropriations? Mr. Meritt. On White Earth we have a general appropriation for the support of the Chippewa Indians, payable out of their tribal funds, a,nd that fund supports the agency employees. In this particular case you have referred to we have a specific appropriation of $4,000, which is a treaty obligation which we use toward the support of the White Earth Boarding School. Senator Clapp has offered an addi- tional amendment to increase the teaching of higher grades at that school in lieu of the appropriation last year, and that will take possibly three or four additional employees in order to do that work. Senator Lane. They are not duplicated, then, in these appropria- tions ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Lane. Where you make an appropriation for boarding school and also have made one for the support and maintenance, these items are segregated so they do not overlap ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Now, in our nonreservation schools we show in our statement the number of employees and the salaries paid and the cost per capita. Senator Lane. You deduct one from the other? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. We made up a general statement. Senator Lane. It is put in here under a verification of your board- ing school. Mr. Meritt. That is a little misleading there. Senator Clapp. I move the adoption of the item. (The motion was agreed to.) (Thereupon, at- 4 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until 2 o'clock p. m., Thursday, March 19, 1914.) THURSDAY, MARCH 19, 1914. There being no quorum present, it was agreed to adjourn until to-morrow at 2 p. m. FRIDAY, MARCH 20, 1914. The committee met pursuant to adjournment at 2 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Ashurst (chairman), Myers, Lane, Owen, and Townsend; also Mr. E. B. Meritt, Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs. The Chairman. The committee will come to order. We will now proceed with the consideration of the Indian appropriation bill. confederated bands of utes. The Chairman. The first item is 144, page 53, of the comparison: ''For the support and civiUzation of confederated bands of Utes, etc., $53,740"; page 648 of the hearings. Mr. Meritt. That is a treaty item, and we are asking for the same amount as was appropriated last year. Senator Lane. How much is it ? INDIAN APPROPRIATIO;sr BILL. 63 Mr. Meritt. $53,740. Senator Lane . How many Utes are there ? Mr. Meritt. There are about 2,000 Utes altogether. Senator Lane. This, you say, is a treaty item. Is it to be used for the support of the Utes ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; for the support and civilization of the Utes. It is a treaty provision for pay of two carpenters, two millers, two farmers, and two blacksmiths; also for the pay of two teachers, and for the purchase of iron and steel, and the necessary tools for a black- smith Sitiop. Senator Townsend. Do you run those blacksmith shops out- there ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. It also provides for the purchase of beef, mutton, wheat, flour, beans, and potatoes, and other necessary arti- cles of food and clothing. Senator Townsend. The provision is $30,000 for that? Mr, Meritt. Yes, sir. The item is fully justified on page 648 of the House hearings. Senator Townsend. On page 648, under justifications for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1914, the amount appropriated was $30,000 ? Mr. Meritt. They divided it into two appropriations. That is one part of this item. Senator Townsend. There is another item of $23,000. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. That $30,000 is for the purchase of beef, mutton, wheat, flour, beans, and potatoes, and other necessary arti- cles, under the terms of the treaty. Senator Townsend. It says that of that amount appropriated of $30,000 the amount expended was $23,409.88, leaving an unex- pended balance of $6,590.12. That was for the fiscal year ending 1913? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. That balance was not expended. If there was no charge later brought in against that balance that money went back into the Treasury. Senator Townsend. And you do not have that to use now. Mr. Meritt. No, sir. It is not available at the present time. Senator Townsend. There were two items. I do not get that clearly, where you get the two items. ^ Mr. Meritt. The total amount is $53,740. Senator Townsend. Yes, I see that. Where is your justification for that? - Mr. Meritt. Here is the justification, showing the expenditure of that $30,000, and on the next page is the justification for the $10,000. That is $40,000. , ^ , Senator Townsend. $23,409.88 was what was expended out ol your $30,000. There is no analysis here for anything but $30,000. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The other provides for employees called for in the treaty items. The treaty items are quoted on page 648 of the hearing. . . p , . i? ^i. Senator Owen. What is the appropriation for the support ol the confederated bands of Utes ? Mr Meritt. It is used, under the treaty, for two carpenters, two millers two farmers, two blacksmiths, two teachers, and the purchase of iron and steel and the necessary tools for blacksmith shops ; also 64 INDIAN' APPROPKIATION BILL. for the purchase of beef, mutton, wheat, flour, beans, and potatoes^ and other necessary articles of food and for pay of employees at the several Ute agencies. Senator Owen. How much of that was used for this purpose ? Mr. Meritt. $30,000. Senator Owen. It is on page 648 of the hearings, you say ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Section 22, I take it, is a quotation from the treaty itself. Mr. Meritt. No, sir; section 22 is the item in the Indian bill, and the statutes are quoted below the analysis on page 648 of the House hearings. Senator Lane. Can you not raise your potatoes and beans there? Mr. Meritt. They should raise their potatoes. Senator Lane. That is a good potato country, is it ? What do you know about that ? Is that country there a good potato country, Mr. Davis ? Mr. Davis. No; not generally; just a small portion of it is. Some of it is fine potato country. Mr. Meritt. We are under treaty obligations to provide this appropriation, Mr. Chairman. Senator Lane. I do not see why you should reserve that large amount of land in the hands of the Indians where there are all kinds of soil. They should at least raise potatoes, do you not think so, Senator Owen ? Senator Owen. I think it would be a very excellent thing for them to do. Mr. Meritt. It is a grain country mostly. Senator Owen. In Colorado they raise the finest kind of potatoes. Senator Townsend. In a grain country they are buying beans. Senator Lane. Beans may be hard to raise on account of frost, but potatoes are easy to raise. What is the elevation there ? Mr. Davis. Four thousand five hundred to six thousand five hundred feet. Senator Lane. Does the frost nip the potato vines ? Mr. Davis. The trouble is that some of the reservations have no water; they are just deserts. Senator Lane. Is there some place where they do have water where they could raise potatoes ? Mr. Davis. Yes, sir; a portion of the land is a good potato country. Senator Lane. They do raise potatoes there, do they not? Mr. Davis. Yes, sir; they do where there is water. Senator Lane. Would it be hard to transport them? Mr. Davis. Yes, sir; very difiicult. Senator Lane. Senator Townsend, what do you want to do with this ? Senator Townsend. Inasmuch as it is a treaty provision I see no reason why that should not be passed. It is what has been done all. along here, unless somebody knows some good reason why it should not be passed. Senator Lane. What is the condition of health of these Indians; it is pretty good, is it not ? Mr. Davis. Yes, sir; fairly good. IJNJJIAI^f APPROPEIATION BILL. 65 Senator Lane. 1 see you are paying your physician $500; is that right ? Mr. Meritt. That is a contract physician. Senator Lane. He has private practice in addition? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. We enter into a contract with local phy- sicians at salaries up to $750. Senator Lane. Where they give their full thiie? Mr. Meritt. Where they give their full time they are paid $1,000, $1,200, and $1,500. The Chairman. Is there a motion with respect to this item? If there is no motion pending and no objection or further discussion regarding this item, the same will be agreed to. The item was agreed to. Senator Lane. Do all these pages contain a justification upon that ? Mr. Meritt. No; the justification runs down to page 649, the mid- dle of the page. Senator Lane. And the other is another one? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. The same tribe of Indians in another section? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. FULFILLING TREATIES WITH UTE INDIANS. The Chairman. The next item is 148, page 55, of the comparison: " For fulfilling treaties with the Ute Indians, $15,000." It is page 657 of the hearing : To carry into effect the provisions of article 9 of the treaty of March 2, 1868 (Fifteenth Statutes at Large, page six hundred and nineteen), with the confederated bands of Ute Indians, for furnishing feed and agricultural implements, the sum of $10,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary. Senator Lane. It is $15,000. The Chairman. It is $10,000 in the bill. Mr. Meritt. That is a typographical error. It should be $15,000. The Chairman. Did the House provide $15,000? Mr. Meritt. The House, according to this bill, reduced it to $10,000, but the estimate called for $15,000. Senator Owen. That was the result of a typographical error, not by formal action in the House. ^Ir. Meritt. Yes, sir; it is a treaty item. The House allowed us all of our treaty items. Senator Lane. How much was appropriated last year, the same amount ? Mr. Meritt. This is a new item. The Ute Indians called our atten- tion to the fact that we had not been living up to the terms of this treaty and they objected very seriously to that fact, and this is the first year that we have included this item in the bill. Senator Owen. What about the years gone by? Senator Lane. What about the years you are in arrears? Since 1868, is it not ? Senator Owen. Do you mean to say that you are in arrears since 1868 in the item of $15,000 ? . Mr. Meritt. We have not been complying with the terms ot this treaty up to this time. 39746— PT 1—14 5 66 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL.^ Senator Owen. Why not? I think there ought to be made an inquiry into that to ascertain why, and whether or not this balance is due to these people. Mr. Meritt. It was called to our attention, and very earnestly, that the office should make this appropriation. Senator Lane. Who found out that you were in arrears, your department or the Indians ? Mr. Meritt. I think the Indians called the matter to the attention of the office. The Chairman. Senator Lane and Senator Townsend are on the investigating committee; you are very useful members of that com- mittee. Why do you not look into that question ? Senator Lane. My friend, this is the first time I have heard of it. We are willing to do so if somebody will refer this to the committee. Senator Owen. I move that it be referred to the committee now. The Chairman. The Senator from Oklahoma moves that the joint commission be authorized to look fully into this matter and to take testimony thereon. Mr. Meritt. Let me call attention to the language of the treaty first. Senator Townsend. Where do you find that treaty? Mr. Meritt. On page 657 of the hearings. It is as follows: Article 9, treaty with certain bands of Ute Indians, concluded March 2, 1868 (15 Stat. L., 619-621), provides as follows: "When the head of a family or lodge shall have selected lands and received his cer- tificate as above described, and -the agent shall be satisfied that he intends in good faith to commence cultivating the soil for a living, be shall be entitled to receive seeds and agricultural implements for the first year not exceeding in value $100, and for each succeeding year he shall continue to farm, for a period of three years more, he shall be entitled to receive seeds and implements as aforesaid, not exceeding in value $50; and it is further stipulated that such persons as commence farming shall receive instructions from the farmer herein provided for; and it is further stipulated that an additional blacksmith to the one provided for in the treaty of October 7, 1863, referred to in article 1 of this treaty, shall be provided with such iron, steel, and other material as may be needed for the IFintah, Yampa, and Grand River Agency." The Indians have only recently been allotted and they are only beginning now to get the beneficial use of their allotment. Senator Townsend. I was just going to say that I could see a very good reason why that had not been done. Mr. Meritt. They recently called our attention to this treaty provision. Senator Owen. Mr. Chairman, I withdraw my motion. The matter has been explained. The Chairman. If there is no objection, the motion will be con- sidered withdrawn. Is there any objection to the item? (There being no objection, the item was approved.) SPOKANES IN WASHINGTON. The next item is 155, page 57, of the comparison; page 669 of the hearings : For support of Spokanes in Washington (article 6 of agreement with said Indians, dated March eighteenth, eighteen hundred and eighty-seven, ratified by act of July thirteenth, eighteen hundred and ninety-two, $1,000. Mr. Meritt. That is a treaty item, and has been appropriated a number of years. INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 67 The CbC AIRMAN. It is at the top of the page of printed comparisons. Senator Owen. That seems not to have been used. Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator OtS^en. What became of it ? Mr. Meritt. It is returned to the Treasury unless it is used. Senator Owen. It seems that that amount was appropriated for the purpose of complying with the terms of article 5 of the treatjr of 1887, to furnish a blacksmith and carpenter and to instruct the Indians in those trades, and it was not used. Mr. Meritt. We have a memorandum explaining that on page 670 of the hearings, Mr. Chairman. It is as follows: During the fiscal year 1913 there was no occasion to employ either a blacksmith or a carpenter, as provided by the treaty, and the matter ot diverting the money to other beneficial uses for the Indians, as provided by section 5 of the act of July 4, 1884 (27 Stats., 76-97), was overlooked. It is proposed to do certain construction work on the reservation during the present fiscal year and the fiscal year 1915, and while this is in progress the services of the employees named will be necessary. When this construction is finished the office will be in a position to do more effective work among the Indians, and this appropriation will be diverted to some other necessary and beneficial purpose. There are 528 Indians entitled to benefit under this appro- priation. The Chairman. Is there a.ny objection to the item? (The item was agreed to.) SHOSHONE INDIANS, WYOMING. The Chairman. The next item is No. 166. The discussion is on page 696 of the healings, page 61 of the comparison, as follows: Sec. 24. For support and civilization of Shoshone Indians in Wyoming, including pay of employees, $15,000. For support and education of one hundred and seventy-five Indian pupils at the Indian school, Shoshone Reservation, Wyoming, including pay of superintendent, $31,025; for general repairs and improvements, $6,000; in all, $37,025. For support of Shoshones in Wyoming: For pay of physician, teacher, carpenter, miller, engineer, farmer, and blacksmith (article ten, treaty of July third, eighteen hundred and sixty-eight), $5,000; for pay of second blacksmith, and such iron and steel and other materials as may be required, as per article eight, same treaty, $1,000; in all, $6,000. Senator Lane. That item is sailing under false colors. That is for the support of the employees, not the Indians. Five thousand doUars is to go for salaries, and the rest, $1,000, is for the iron and steel, and so forth; none is going to the Indians. Mr. Meritt. The treaty of July, 1868, requires the Government to furnish those Indians with a physician, teacher, carpenter, miUer, engineer, f-armer, and blacksmith. Senator Lane. I say the title is wrong. It is not expended for the support of the Indians. Mr. Meritt. It is rather misleading. Senator Owen. In point of fact, is that money used, or a part of it, for the salary of the physician, teacher, carpenter, miller, engineer, farmer, and blacksmith ? Mr. Meritt. We have those officials on that reservation. Senator Owen. Are they really necessary for that reservation ? I see that there are 839 of the Shoshones. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; they are needed on that reservation. 68 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Owen. I notice you have in all those places a good many men. Has any effort been made to train carpenters among the Indian people and let them serve as carpenters ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; we have in a large number of our Indian schools industrial departments that teach the Indians carpentry and other trades, and one-third of the employees of the Indian Service are Indians. Senator Owen. You are trying to do that, are you ? Mr. Meritt. We are not only trying, but we are required by law wherever it is possible to employ Indians. Senator Townsend. I notice, Mr. Meritt, that it says the second blacksmith shall be provided with his steel, iron, and other material whenever 100 persons on either reservation shall enter upon the cultivation of the soil. Do you know whether there have been 100 Indians to do that; have 100 Indians entered upon the cultiva- tion of the soil on that reservation ? Mr. Meritt, We have a good many more than 100 on the two reservations. There is one other tribe with these Indians on that reservation. On the Shoshone Reservation we have constructed a large irrigation project, and we are now making special effort to get those Indians to make beneficial use of that water, and the Indians are making an effort to farm. Some are not farming on a very large scale, but they have been making a commendable effort during the past few years. They are also engaged in the cattle industry on that reservation. We recently bought them a herd out of the trioal funds, and the superintendent is doing some good work in connection with the cattle industry. Senator Townsend. I suppose this additional expense that the treaty provides for contemplates the improvement of the Indians. As they need the extra blacksmith, he shall be given to them. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Are you satisfied that they do get these black- smiths there ? Mr. Meritt. I think they have plenty of work on that reservation for the extra blacksmith. Senator Townsend. I assume that these treaty relations were entered into with the idea of getting some benefit to the Indians and not with simply the open proposition to employ a few men there, whether they needed them or not? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; wh^^rever the treaty provides for certain employees we have authority to divert that fund, if we do not need those employees, for the benefit of the Indians, and we are required to make a report to Congress each year as to those diversions. The Chairman. Is there any further discussion of this item? Is there any objection to the same? (Thcro being no objection, the item was agreed to.) CHIPPEWA INDIANS IN MINNESOTA. The Chairman. The next item with which the committee will deal is No. 65, page 23 of the comparison: ''Chippewa Indians in Minnesota, civihzation and support, $185,000." It is discussed on page 416 of th? hearings. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 69 Mr. Meritt. This item authorizes the withdrawal of $185,000 of the tribal funds of the Chippewas for civilization and self-support of the Indians, and it is under certain treaty provisions. Senator Lane. There are treaties on that, too, are there? Mr. Meritt. This is not classed as a treaty item. We call it as a withdrawal of tribal funds. Senator Owen. What item is that ? The Chairman. It is found at the bottom of page 23 of the printed compaiison, line 23, as follows: The Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to withdraw from the Treasury of the United States, at his discretion, the sum of $215,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, of the principal sum on deposit to the credit of the Chippewa Indians in the State of Minnesota, arising under section seven of the act of January fourteenth, eighteen hundred and eighty-nine, entitled "An act for the relief and civilization of the Chippewa Indians in the State of Minnesota," and to use the same for the purpose of promoting civilization and self-support among the said Indians in manner and for purposes provided for in said act: Provided, That not to exceed 150,000 of this amount may be used in the purchase of lands for homeless nonremoval Mille Lacs Indians, to be immediately available and to remain available until expended, said lands to be held in trust and may be allotted to said Indians, in the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior, subject to the provisions of the act of February eighth, eighteen hundred and eighty-seven (Twenty-fourth Statutes at Large, page three hundred and eighty-eight, as amended). Senator Townsend. I see the House made a provision to with- draw $215,000. ^ Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Why did the House increase that ? Mr. Meritt. Kepresentative MiUer, of Minnesota, increased our estimate for the purchase of lands of the Mille Lac Indians from $20,000 to $50,000, and that increased the total from $185,000 to $215,000. Mr. Miller said that we could not buy a sufficient amount of land for those Mille Lac Indians. It was our purpose t ^ keep the appropriation down as much as possible, and we were cnly asking for $20,000 this ;^ear, with the expectation that it might be necessary to ask an additional appropriation next year to buy land for all Indians surrounding the Mille Lac Lake. Those MiUe Lac Indians were entitled under the law to take allotment on the White Earth Reservation, but practically all the lands on that reservation have been taken up. The MiUe Lac Indians are not satisfied to five on White Earth Reservation. They prefer to hve at their old home around Mille Lac Lake. They refuse absolutely to leave that coun- try, and they are in a very deplorable condition. They need lands, and Representative Miller thought we should expend $50,000 of the Chippewa funds for that purpose. Senator Townsend. How large a fund have the Chippewas ? Mr. Meritt. They have between $4,000,000 and $5,000,000 m the United States Treasury. Senator Lane. They d^ not want to move away, and want to buy land over on Mille Lac Lake; is that the contention? ^ •, n Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; around the lake where they have lived all their lives. -,■,•, i o Senator Lane. And then use the other lands to settle on ^ Mr. Meritt. The other lands have been taken up. The valuable lands on WTiite Earth Reservation have been taken up. Senator Lane. By the whites or the Indians? 70 INDIA]sr APPBOPRJATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. By the Indians; they have been allotted, and those Mille Lac Indians are not satisfied to live on White Earth Keserva- tion. They prefer to live on their old hunting grounds. Senator Lane. What will it cost per acre to buy the land, do you suppose ? Mr. Meritt. In the neighborhood of $20 to $35 an acre. Senator Lane. Is it timberland or cut-over land? Mr. Meritt. I think it is cut-over land. They do not care for a large tract of land; they want simply small tracts for garden pur- poses. They do a great deal of fishing. Senator Lane. In the lake? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Do you have to buy these lands for the Indians ? Senator Lane. That is what this money is for. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; $50,000 for the purchase of the land, and the other appropriation is for administration and school purposes. Senator Lane. Go ahead; I did not want to interrupt you. Mr. Meritt. We have submitted a justification for this item begin- ning on page 416. STATEMENT OF GUS H. BEAULEAU. Senator Lane. Are you a Chippewa ? Mr. Beauleau. Yes, sir. I desire to say that there has been a Srotest filed with Senator Clapp about this particular appropriation. Tow there were 1/iOO Chippewas formerly, and under the act of 1889 provision was made for their removal to White Earth Reservation and allotment there. Now there are about between 200 and 300 who live at Mille Lac, but about half of those have received allotments at White Earth Reservation. Then they returned to Mille Lac are stiQ living there, and under the act of 1902 they still have a right to go up on some of the other reservations and select allotments there; they have the right to select allotments without buying any more land, and there has been a protest filed against the purchase of this land until the Indians are given an opportunity to select the land. Senator Lane. Who was this protest filed by ? Mr. Beauleau. It is by letters, I believe, written to Senator Clapp. He talked to me day before yesterday about the matter and said he would submit a proposition to this committee to allow the Indians to pass upon it and see whether they wanted the land or not. Senator Townsend, The Indians themselves, who are to be al- lotted ? Mr. Beauleau. Those who are to be allotted and also the Chip- pewas of Minnesota generally. Senator Townsend. You mean that those who have lands on the reservation wanted to decide whether those who did not have any land at all shaU be allowed to purchase land. Mr. Beauleau. They wanted to decide whether those who had no land would prefer to go upon the reservation. They still have lands that have not been sold, and under the act of Congress of 1902 they have the right to go upon any reservation in Minnesota where lands are being allotted and select their allotments there. There are less of them there who have not selected allotments. There are INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 71 between 200 and 300 still at Mille Lac and a large number of those have selected allotments already. Senator Owen. IJo^v many have not selected their allotments ? !Bir. Beauleau. I should judge about 100 or 150. Senator Owen. How much land is there from which they might select allotments ? Mr. Beauleau. I should judge at least 20 or 30 acres. Senator Owen. Is the land suitable for allotment? Mr. Beauleau. Well, it is considered some of the best land in Mirnesota for agricultural purposes. Senator Owen. What is the objection to their taking the allot- ments on the lands they have, then ? Mr. Beauleau. I do not think there is any objection, excepting that the department has not taken any action to remove them upon those particular reservations. They have tried to move them all upon tne White Earth Reservation, but the Mille Lac Indians have the right to select land upon any reservation in Minnnesota, or any ceded reservation, and they have indicated their desire to go upon this reserfvation, and the department has never taken any steps toward removing them there. I know that three years ago some of them made application to be allotted upon the Mississippi Chippewas, near Leech Lake and Cass Lake, but no steps were taken to remove them there. Senator Owen. Where is this land to be bought with this money ? Mr. Beauleau. The land I understand they waated to buy with this money is at Mille Lac Lake. Senator Owen. Right where the Indians are now ? Mr. Beauleau. Yes, sir; the Indians are living on the two tracts of land there that they obtained under the homestead law. Senator Owen. Would not the Indians prefer to have the land where they are living ? Mr. Beauleau. That is a question that I could not answer. There are some of them who would prefer, no doubt, to live there, but I know that some of them want to remove because they made applica- tions through me. I made between 15 and 20 applications for them three years ago, and no action was taken on them. I represented those Mille Lac Indians for a good many years, and I know pretty near how they feel about this matter. Senator Townsend. Is this to be taken out of the tribal funds ? Mr. Meritt. It is taken out of the tribal funds. Senator Townsend. You object to the fund of the Chippewa In- dians being used for the purchase of land when there is land on the reservation that would probably suit them ? Mr. Beauleau. Yes, sir; I think it is not right. I agree with the Indians generally who object to it. These men have had an oppor- tunity to select their own allotments and to indicate whether they wanted to go upon this allotment, and in this particular allotment I think they should be allowed to do so. Anyway, if the appropria- tion is made, the matter should be submitted to the Indians them- selves to see if they want to do so. Senator Townsend. Is Senator Clapp familiar with this ? Mr. Beauleau. Yes, sir. ' ^ , . , i . . i . ^ Senator Townsend. Mr. Chairman, I thmk we ought at least to pass this item until Senator Clapp attends the committee. 72 INDIAN APPKOPPxATION BILL.. ■ WHITE EARTH INDIANS' CELEBRATION. The Chairman. This item will be passed until the return of Senator Clapp, and we will now advert to item 66, page 24, of the comparison, the discussion of the same being on page 422 of the hearmgs. The item is as follows: The Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to advance to the executive committee of the White Earth Band of Chippewa Indians in Minnesota the sum of $1,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, to be expended in the annual celebra- tion of said band to be held June fourteenth, nineteen hundred and fourteen, out of the funds belonging to said band. Senator Owen. Is that agreeable to those Indians? Mr. Meritt. That appropriation has been allowed for several years in the past, and it is agreeable to the Indians. Senator Owen. Is it a fair or a meeting that they have? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; they hold a meeting there at White Earth Agency in June. They have a regular celebration. Senator Owen. This is a new item, is it not? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; it is not a new item. It has been carried in in the Indian appropriation bill for several years. Senator Lane. It was in the bill last year. Senator Owen. It was taken from their tribal funds for their entertainment ? Mr, Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Owen. To have an annual meeting there, or a sort of picnic ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Mr. Beauleau could tell you more about that than I. Mr. Beauleau. They celebrate every year, and they have been doing so for over 40 years. They celebrate the anniversary of their settlement upon the reservation and the appropriation of the amount, being the usual appropriation, is to pay for visiting delegations from other Chippewa reservations in Minnesota. Senator Owen. For purchasing food, and things of that sort? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Owen. I move the adoption of that item. The motion was agreed to. extension of water system, CHIPPEWA INDIANS OF MINNESOTA. The Chairman. The next item is No. 66 J and in the printed com- parison will be found on page 27. It is a new item, as follows: The Secretary be, and he is hereby, authorized and directed to expend the sum of $1,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, of the funds of the White Earth Band of the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota, for the extension of the water system in the village of White Earth, Minnesota. Mr. Meritt. That item was not estimated for by the department. It was placed in the House bill by Kepresentative Miller, I believe, upon the request of his constituents. We offer no objection to the item. Senator Lane. What is it for? Do you know anything about it? Mr. Meritt. It is for the extension of the water system at White Earth. Senator Lane. For household consumers ? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 73 Mr. Meritt. It is simply to enlarge the water system. Senator Owen. Does tliis come out of the funds of the White Earth Band ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Owen. Is it charged against their own funds ? Mr. Meritt. Yes^ sir. Senator Owen. I move the adoption of the item. (Without objection, the item was agreed to.) COUNCIL HALL FOR CHIPPEWA INDIANS. The Chairman. The next item is sixty-seven and a half, found on page 28 of the comparison. It is a new item, as follows: The Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to withdraw from the Treasury of the United States the sum of $1,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, of the principal sum on deposit to the credit of the Chippewa Indians in the State of Minnesota, arising under section . seven of the act of January fourteenth, eighteen hundred and eighty-nine, entitled "An act for the relief and civilization of the Chippewa Indians in the State of Minnesota," and to use the same for the purpose of constructing and furnishing a council hall at such point as he may select, for the use of the Indiana living in the vicinity of Sawyer, Minnesota. Mr. Meritt. This item was not estimated for by the department. Representative Miller, I beheve, procured the enactment oi the item in the House bill on the representation of some Indians in that im- mediate vicinity. Senator Owen. What do you know about that, Mr. Beauleau? Mr. Beauleau. I do not know anything, excepting that I have heard of it since I have been here. But it is one of the items that I suggested to Senator Clapp, that it should be referred to the tribe. As long as it is their money that is going to be expended, we should know whether it would be satisfactory to them or not. Senator Owen. I move that that item be passed until Senator Clapp appears. Without objection, the item was temporarily passed. KIOWA, COMANCHE, AND APACHE TRIBES OF INDIANS, OKLAHOMA. The Chairman. The next item is 106, page 36 of the printed com- parison, page 550 of the hearings, as follows: The Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to withdraw from the Treasury of the United States, at his discretion, the sum of $25,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, of the funds on deposit to the credit of the Kiowa, Comanche, and Apache Tribes of Indians in Oklahoma for the support of the agency and the pay of employees maintained for their benefit. Senator Owen. Was there not some withdraw:n last year ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Owen. How much ? Mr. Meritt. $25,000. Senator Owen. Is this $25,000 more? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; that amount is for pay of employees at that agency. They have between four and five million dollars in the Treasury, and the Indian committees of Congress have in recent years been appropriating out of the funds of the Indians for admin- istration expenses when they had a large amount to their credit in the Treasury. That is true of the Sioux country, and it is the prac- 74 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. tice among the Chippewas, and the Crows, I believe, to support their agency out of their own funds. Senator Owen. Why should those Indians pay for it out of their own funds when the Government pays out funds for other Indians from the public funds? Mr. Meritt. The House committee especially has insisted on using tribal funds where the Indians have large funds to their credit in the Treasury. Senator Cwen. Requiring them to pay for the administration of the agency? Mr. Meritt. Cf their own affairs; yes, sir. We are also paying administration expenses of the Csage Indians out of their funds. Senator Cwen. But they are very wealthy. I do not jknow how much these Indians have, but I do not think they are very weU off. Mr. Meritt. They have about $4,000,000 in the Treasury. Senator Lane. How many of them are there ? Mr. Meritt. There are about 3,000, I think. CONSULTATION WITH INDIANS AS TO ADMINISTRATION. Senator Townsend. I am very much in sympathy with that policy myseK, but in that case it would seem to me that the Indians ought to be consulted in reference to this administration. Senator Lane. I think so, too. Senator Townsend. Do you consult the Indians at all? Do they have anything to say at all about the agents, or anything of that kind— the people who are put over them? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; they do not select their agents. Senator Owen. I understand the Indians are very much discon- tented with their agent; is that true? Mr. Meritt. He is popular with some of the Indians and unpopu- lar with others. Practically every Indian reservation in the country has its factions — two or three factions. Senator Owen. A number of these Indians came here recently and said they were very much discontented with the agent there, who was rather of a military disposition in his method of dealing with them, and that they were timid about meeting him and seemed afraid to talk with him, and did not have harmonious or sympathetic rela- tions with him. What is your knowledge about that ? Mr. Meritt. Mr. Stecker is the superintendent there, and he has had some military experience. Senator Owen. Is he an Army officer? Mr. Meritt. I do not think he is a Regular Army officer, but he was in the Philippine service and in the Spanish- American War, I beheve, and he nas had Army experience. Charges have been brought against him on one or two occasions and there have been investigations, and he has retained his position after those investi- gations were made. It was two or three years ago, if I i.'emember- correctly, that those investigations were made. Senator Townsend. What do you think, Mr. Meritt, about \h.e policy of consulting with the Indians in reference to such cases as this and the one Mr. Beaulieu has spoken of a little while ago ? In a matter that affects the tribe, where the tribe pays all the expenses, they coming out of their funds, what do you tnmk about the policy INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 75 of consulting them, at least in reference to the management of their own property ? Mr. Meritt. I think it would be very desirable. Senator Townsend. Do you not think it would be a method of civilization? We are talking about civilizing the Indian and sup- porting them. Do you not think it would have a tendency toward civilization at least to have the Indian interested in his own affairs, to the extent at least that he shall be consulted in reference to the admiaistration of his affairs ? Mr. Meritt. I think it would be helpful to the Indians. Senator Owen. Suppose a majority of these Indians in this case — I do not know what the merits are — but suppose the majority of these Indians were to express themselves through the ballot that they were opposed to this agent remaining there, do you not think they ought to have a right to have a change ? Mr. Meritt. I think if the Indians are opposed to their superin- tendent, the lar^e majority, they should have a new superintendent, because where the superintendent has the opposition of the Indians he can not promote their civiHzation and be helpful to them as weU as a man who is in sympathy with them and in whom they have con- fidence. I am heartily in favor of the idea of the Indians having as large a voice as possible and practicable in the administration of their own affairs. Senator Townsend. My experience had with the Indians this year has led me to believe that a great deal of the trouble that exists upon many of the reservations at least, and probably all of them that I visited, could be done away with if the Indians themselves were taken into the confidence of the Government a httle more; if they knew what was going on; what was being done for them. They are suspicious. All kinds of stories are told to them, and they believe them. Some things are not true, sometimes; whereas if they knew positively what was going on and were given a hand in the matter, they would be better Indians and more civilized Indians than they are now. Senator Owen. They would be treated better, too. Senator Townsend. I think so. Is there not some way that that can be done, Mr. Commissioner? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. As to these items that we appropriate from their funds it is within your power to put a proviso or a clause in" this bill requiring us to get the consent of the Indians before the funds are expended. In the event, however, that there should be a refusal of the Indians to give their consent to the expenditure of this fund, we would have no appropriation available to carry on the schools and the agencies now being appropriated for out of their funds. Senator Townsend. I do not know that I would want to go that far in this bill, but I think I would like to have an amendment put in here somewhere compelling the department to consult with the Indians and allow them at least to express themselves on these various matters. The Chairman. Senator, out west we have statutes which provide that children of the age of fourteen or over have a right to choose their guardians who are executors of estates of vast amounts. It certainly seems that these Indians, where their moneys are being spent, ought to have the right to select their own agent subject, possibly, to veto 76 INDIAN" APPEOPRIATION BILL. by the department, and I hope an amendment will be put in of that character. Senator Owen. I think if we had some measure by which they would have the right to demand removal, it would obtain for the Indians better treatment than they might otherwise get in every case. .Of course in most cases the men do the best they can, I have no doubt, to establish a reasonably sympathetic relation with the Indian people, but I do think they ought to have the right to express themselves, and if they are dissatisfied with the agent I think that agent ought to be changed or removed. Sometimes the man may get into compHca- tions that he is not altogether responsible for, but when a majority is against him I think that his efficiency is very greatly impaired. EXCESSIVE INTEREST CHARGES TO INDIANS. Senator IjAne. I want to call the attention of Senator Owen and Senator Townsend to what seems to be the fact here. I want to ask, first, how much they have -between four and five milhon dollars, did you say? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Where is that deposited? Mr. Meritt. In the Treasury of the United States. Senator Lane. It draws how much — 4 per cent? Mr. Meritt. Four and 5 per cent, I think. Senator Lane. And these identical Indians, Senator Owen, whose money is in trust with the Government, get 4 per cent for the use of it, and if they need money for any use whatever, they must go and borrow from a private individual and pay as high as 20 or 25 per cent. It goes on regularly and it happens in other reserves all down the line. Senator Owen. It is a very difficult problem, because men who lend to the Indians necessarily incur some jeopardy, because it is not secured. Senator Lane. Could not the Government loan the Indians their own money safely ? Senator Owen. Yes, I think so. I think that would be all right. Senator Lane. Why do they not do it? They have power and authority to do it. Have you not power to loan money to these Indians ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Lane. It seems that out of this fund some sixty or seventy thousand doUars goes for salaries. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Owen. Take these Indians, for instance. They live in a climate which has periodical droughts; very serious droughts, too. It seems that if part of their money were used for silos, built under the direction of the Government — concrete silos, which are not very expensive— it would enable them to save their crops often when hot winds coming on wipe their crops off the face of the earth, and it is very discouraging to them. Senator Lane. They have had droughts for the last few years. The point is, that if they want to borrow money they have to go out and borrow it from private individuals at anywhere from 10 to 25 per cent. That condition is wrong. It should not exist. INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 77 Mr. Meritt. In the next item you will notice that we are asking for the withdrawal of $250,000 of this money to pay to these Indians and use for their benefit where they are incompetent. Senator Lane. Is not some of this money to go to pay otf debts that they already have ? Mr. Meritt. That $250,000, if it is allowed, as was done last year, and the year before, would be divided up per capita, and if the Indian has contracted obligations, that he considers just and p-opei, and makes application to pay that indebtedness after an in ve '.liga- tion as to whether it is a proper indebtedness, we will authod/f the money to be paid. Senator Owen. The very thing that the Senator has spoken <»! has already incurred a loss there, because the man who makes the deal with him does so upon the theory that he is liable to lose it and the Indian pays full price for that possible loss. He insures him against loss and is doing the very thing that the Senator is objecting to. Senator Lane. I was told last year when they got something Uke this same sum — and w^e were told here, if I am correct in the item, that all that mone}^, probably every dollar, would go to pay debts 'incurred the year before. This appropriation, gentlemen — and you might just as well understand it — is not for the support of the Indians for the ensuing fiscal year at all. It is to pay off old debts incurred last year. The Indians have bought supplies and paid enormous prices for them and yet they have' $5,000,000 to their credit which they can not make use of and have to pay a large per cent iov interest when thev make a loan. Senator Owen. I have no doubt that they would welcome some plan by which to obviate that objectionable practice, because we deal with a debt which is already inciu:red — a deot where the element of risk has entered, and which has involved the Indian in a very high cost. Senator Lane. See what we do to the Indian in continuing the condition that he is in now, in debt again this year. He will n<'yer get out. Senator Ow^en. I was speaking of the recurrence of this. Senator IjAne. The thing to do if he owes $250,000, is to appropriate $500,000 and give it to him so that he can get out of debt and let him buy supplies for cash at less exorbitant prices. That would be good business poUcy . Mr. Meritt. We have had this very difficulty that you refer to at this particular agency. We sent a debt commission— what is known as a debt commission — down there, and they went over th3se accounts and boiled them down to the limit of what was considered just and fair, and cut out all charges that should not be paid, and those Indians have paid their just debts and most of them are now out of debt. Senator Townsend. Did that amount include this exorbitant interest ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; we did not allow any exorbitant interest and did not allow exorbitant prices for material that they had purchased. We went over those accounts very carefully. Senator Owen. Did the Indians verify tho accounts, all th ^ itiins, to see if they were true ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; the commission went over the accounts with the Indians and with the traders, and they struck a balance th^t they considered was just and fair. Those Indians would have b^r.n in 78 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. bad condition because of the three successive droughts if the traders had not advanced them some money or credit. Senator Owen. I have no doubt that any human being who makes sales of that kind, knowing when he makes the sale that he is putting himself in serious risk, will charge well for the articles, or find some way of protecting himself against that risk, and he does it at the expense of the Indian, or any other man in like situation, every time. Senator Lane. Do not these Indians borrow money of money lenders, and pay a pretty heavy interest for it, and a bonus ? Mr. Meritt. We have tried to break up that condition. Senator Lane. They are doing it? Mr. Meritt. It has been done in the past. Senator Lane. Was it not done last year? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; the superintendent has incurred the hostility of those money lenders because he has tried to break up that practice. Senator Lane. It is done on one of the other reservations, I know. consultation of INDIANS AS TO ADMINISTRATION RESUMED. Senator Townsend. Going back to that proposition, you agree with the proposition that the Indians should be consulted, and think the committee will agree to that. I know those who are here now do. I realized that there are some difficulties in the way of ad- ministration, if you put the absolute veto power on the Indians. I am not prepared to say that I would go that far. Do you have an attor- ney of your department down there ? Mr. Meritt. We have a number of lawyers in our bureau. Senator Townsend. You understand the difficulties to overcome. What I would like to do now is to get a provision in this bill whereby every appropriation that is made from the Indians' money, in that case the tribe shall be consulted; they shall have an opportunity to express themselves on that. Could you prepare a proposition to that extent, which you think would meet the necessities oi the case ? Mr. Meritt. I would be glad to draft an item. Senator Townsend. I wish you would do that and present it to us so that we can look it over. Put it in such form that it will give us your best idea of what is possible to do down there. I would like to go as far as possible, consistently with good administration. Mr. Meritt. We will draft an item and submit it to you. The Chairman. Very well. This item will be passed. STATEMENT OF MARTIN J. BENTLEY. Mr. Bentley. Mr. Chairman, may I be heard a moment on the proposition submitted by Senator Townsend, as to the advisability ■of these Indians having more voice in the control of their own affairs ? I believe I can give the committee some information, perhaps, that will be of value. Formerly I was an Indian agent, appointed by President Cleveland, and I was appointed on the petition of the Indians. The Indians had been in a very deplorable condition, always rebelling against their agent because some one was sent there who was a stranger to them, and they had had no voice in his selection. They made an appeal to be granted an agent of their own selection and I went there to take INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 79 charge of them. They regarded me as their agent. They had pledged themselves to conduct themselves better if they were given .their way, to that even limited extent of their own selection of the person who should control then- money and handle their affairs. The results that I accomplished would verify and sustam the proposition that it is an inspiration to the Indians. They built homes and im- E roved themselves in various directions, such as they had never done efore. Senator Townsend. ^Taat Indian tribe are you talking about? Mr. Bentley. The Kickapoos of Oklahoma. I had been appealed to by practically all the tribes in Oklahoma, and for more than a year I have been promoting a bill in the House known as the Rider- Knox bill, giving to the Indian people of the country the very thing that your proposition embodies, providing that their fund shall not be used in payment to the white men to render service to them without their consent. If you go among our Indian tribes down there, you will observe that there are some employees who are necessary, and you will find others who the Indians know are of no value to them. Yet, without being consulted, he sees a large sum of his money annually being paid to somebody who renders him no service and is of no benefit to him, and I am certain that the proposition to give to the Indian a greater voice in the control of his own affairs would be an inspi- ration to the Indian, and it is one that should be given to him if it is ever expected to get him in a better and more useful condition. I am certain that the proposition is one of very great importance, and in reference to the bill that is now pending in Congress embody- ing this idea I have a very strong report from the subcommittee of the House on that bill commendmg the bill and recommending its passage. Senator Townsi^nd. Will you send us a copy of that bUl? Mr. Bentley. I will be very glad to, and also the report along with it. Senator Owen. While this matter was being discussed I drew an item of this kind which I did not intend to offer, but merely as a sug- gestion, to this effect — that upon putting five per cent of the adult Indians all under one agency, the Com- missioner of Indian Affairs shall provide a method of secret ballot by which the adult Indians may declare a vote of confidence or no confidence in the agent, or in their employees at the agency, and if the majority thereof declare no confidence, the Com- missioner of Indian Affairs shall then within sixty days remove such employee from such agency. Senator Lane. Put that in. I like that. That is the recall. I be- lieve in it. Senator Townsend, I am in sympathy with the idea. I think it is a splendid idea. Senator Owen. I move that a subcommittee be appointed to con- sider that subject, consisting of the Senator from Michigan and some other Senator. The motion was agreed to, and the Chair appointed Senators Owen, Lane, a.nd Townsend as such committee. The Chairman. You will prepare your proposed amendment and submit it for discussion ? 80 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL, Senator Owen. It is going into a condition of greater and greater civilization that must be offset by some degree of decentralization. Senator Townsend. I realize that fully and saw it when I was out. there. Senator Owen. I am in favor of allowing every town to elect and recall its own postmaster, subject to the man having some supervision by the Federal Government, but I do think that every neighborhood ought to have some right to control its own affairs. The Chairman. A great many of our Navajo Indians have laughed in hilarious derision at this supervision. The Navajos know as much of their own affairs as the agent does. I think that is a very good suggestion. Senator. Senator Owen. The idea that the Indian has not enough judgment to pass upon the fitness of the agent is not right. I think they have as much sense as the ordinary agents who go out there. The Chairman. We will pass this item, then, in view of this action. Mr. Meritt. While you are discussing this matter, I desire to say that we have an Indian here in this room who o^\^ls more than a thou- sand head of cattle. I would like to have that Indian talk to you just for a few minutes. Senator Owen. I would like to hear him. Senator Lane. How did he manage to hang on to them? Mr. Meritt. Here is an Indian who owns more than a thousand head of cattle; he owns a large number of horses; he has attended Carlisle Indian School, and he attributes to a large extent his success as the result of attending the Indian schools and getting an education in the Indian schools and to the opportunities afforded on his reser- vation. The Chairman. We will be glad to hear him. INDIAN management OF THEIR OWN AFFAIRS. STATEMENT OF CHARLES W. BUCK. Senator Townsend. What is your full name ? Mr. Buck. Charles W. Buck. Mr Meritt. How many cattle do you own ? Mr. Buck. I have about in the neighborhood of a thousand head, possibly better; right around the neighborhood, a thousand head. Senator Owen. You have no difficulty in counting them, have you? Mr. Buck. Well, no. I have about 90 or 95 head of good horses. I also have some cattle. I have quite a large range out there. Senator Owen. Do you think if the Indian people had the right to give a vote of no confidence in an employee of the agency, it would help the service, or not? Mr. Buck. I think that would be a very wise idea, to do that. Senator Owen. Do you think they would be moved by prejudice or a bad spiiit against the man who is doing his duty? Mr. Buck. Well, to a certain extent there are always agitators. Senator Owen. Do you think that would control the majority of your people in a vote? Mr. Buck. No, I do not. INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. ; 81 Senator Townsend. How much influence does the chief of your tribe have? Suppose the chief should be offended at the agent, would he be able to control the election, if you had an election? Mr. Buck, Well, yes; he would to a certain extent; that is, among the ignorant Indians. He would go around and preach to them and go around through the country and the chances are get some one tc draw up a petition and go around the country and have a lot of signers by people who would not know what they were signing; but if the thing was explained to them in the right manner it would be all right, Senator Townsend. You beheve it would be practicable. Sup- pose the proposition was put up to your tribe, ''Shall we continue the agent that we have here or not?" now could you get a vote on thai that would be determined by the intelligent majority of opinion oi your Indians ? Mr. Buck. We could call a council; that is the only way to get at it. But this going around through the country with an independent petition and getting signers, most anybody will sign it. Senator Townsend. What question did you want to ask, Mr Meritt ? Mr. Meritt. I wanted you gentlemen of the committee to see 8 real progressive Indian who was making good on that Indian res- ervation. Senator Townsend. How much land do you own? Mi. Buck. Of my own land I have 940 acres. Senator Townsend. Did you get that all by allotment, througt your family ? Mr. Buck. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In the management of your cattle do you employ other men ? Of course you do ? Mr. Buck. I have two men the year round, two white men. Senator Townsend. Why do you not employ Indians ? Mr. Buck. We can not depend on an Indian like we can on a whit( man to do the work, and I want to state here that there is not a singh man on the reservation who has not had the same show that I have had. When I left the Carhsle in 1895 I did not have a dollar to mj name, that is, that I could say was mine, and in 1897 I got married I married one of the Carlisle girls, and I ran a little account at th( stores — S40 — and you know I had an awful time in paying that $40 I did not have anything to pay it with, and every once in a while ] would go down to the trader and talk about that $40. Finally I go; it and straightened up with him. I have a bunch of horses and . have accumulated a httle bunch of cattle, and I went to the banfc and estabhshed myself with the bank and got the confidenceof the busi ness men, and to-day, gentlemen, I can, as the traders know, go tc any of those stores in the surrounding countries and get what please. I 'can get money just on a promissory note and any Indiai out there could do the same thing if you just started him. Senator Lane. The Black Feet Indians are better stockmen thai they are farmers, naturally, are they not? \/r-p T^TTr''K' jL es sir. Senator Lane. They used to be awfully handy in gathering horsei from the whites, years ago. Mr. Buck. Oh, they used to be. 39746— PT 1—14- 82 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. Mr. Buck. The white men get the Indians' horses, too. Senator Townsend. Why do not the other Indians do as you do? What is the reason for that? Mr. Buck. I do not kaow what the reason is. Senator Townsend. Are the Indians given a good chance in the management of that reservation? Mr. Buck. I think so; everybody who behaves himself, and does right, never gets into any trouble. I have been there since 1895 under different agents, and never had a word with any of them. If you go ahead and attend to your business and leave the Indian agent's business alone, let him attend to his own affairs, you will not have any trouble. Senator Lane. How many Indians are there besides yourself who own large herds— up to a hundred, perhaps? Mr. Buck. I do not know; I guess Mr. Perrine has 5,000 sheep and quite a bunch of horses, and Mr. Clark has a big bunch of cattle and horses — there are a number who are pretty well to do. Senator Lane. How many Indians are there in the tribe ? Mr. Buck. In the neighborhood of 2,700. Senator Lane. Out of that number what is the proportion that have got ahead with horses and cattle and sheep up to the number of, we will say, 100 head ? Mr. Buck. The cattle business is good up there. Two years ago they had a pretty bad winter, extrem.ely cold up there, and conse- quently the cold weather killed the cattle up there, and that put the Indians back. I had myself in the neighborhood of 25 per cent killed. I had lots of hay for use as feed Senator Lane. You say you have plenty of hay? Mr. Buck. I have plenty of hay; yes, sir. The cows were bedded down in the evening, and the next morning you would have to go out there and knock her in the head; she could not get up. There were lots of cattle that perished in that way. Senator Lane. This has been a mild mnter, has it not — I mean this past winter ? Mr. Buck. Yes, sir; very mild. Senator Townsend. Have you any recommendation to make to this committee as to the management of the affairs of the Black- feet ? Mr. Buck. I have not any. The management of the Blackfeet suits me well enough. I am in favor of the present management. Senator Lane. Who is the superintendent there ? Mr. Buck.' McFatridge. I want to say to you at this gathering here that you wiU look a long time before you will find another man like McFatridge. (Mr. Buck was thereupon excused.) STATEMENT OF JAMES A. PERRINE, A BLACKFEET INDIAN. Senator Townsend. Are you an Indian ? Mr. Perrine. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. What blood ? Mr. Perrine. Blackfeet. Senator Townsend. What portion of Indian are you ? Mr. Perrine. One-quarter. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 83 Senator Lane. Were you educated at Carlisle ? Mr. Perrine. No, sir; I went to public school for nine years. That is all the schooling I have ever had. That was at Fort Benton. Senator Townsend. Where are you located ? Mr. Perrine. I am living on the Blackfeet Reservation at the present time. Senator Townsend. What is your business ? Mr. Perrine. Stock raising. Senator Townsend. What kind of stock? Mr. Perrine. I have got some horses and some cattle and some sheep. Senator Townsend, How many horses ? Mr. Perrine. I have got about 45 head of horses, about 33 head of cattle, and about 4,500 head of sheep. Senator Townsend. How long have you been collecting that run of stock ? Mr. Perrine. About 22 years. Senator Townsend. What did you have when you started? Mr. Perrine. A saddle and a roll of bedding. Senator Townsend. You had no money ? Mr. Perrine. No, sir. Senator Townsend. How many acres of land do you own ? Mr. Perrine. Three hundred and twentv acres, myself. Senator Lane. Where do you get grass for your sheep ? Mr. Perrine. I have grazed them on Downey's allotment. I have a family allotment. I have a family, and there are lots of Indians who have allotments around there. Senator Lane. What do you have to pay an acre ? Mr. Perrine. I pay the Indian $200 a year for his allotment. Senator Lane. What price per acre would that be? Mr. Perrine. I have not figured it up by the acre. He had the land out there and did not have any stock to put on it, and wanted me to use it and agreed to let me do it for grub to live on. Senator Lane. Do you have any free range ? Mr. Perrine. Yes, sir; lots of free range. That is communal. Senator Lane. Are there any other Indians grazing sheep on that land? . Mr. Perrine. Yes, sir; horses and cattle and everything, over all the range in common. Senator Lane. Then the most of your feed is free feed — the most of your grazing is on free land ? Mr. Perrine. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. How is with your cattle, Mr. Buck? Mr, Buck. We pay a grazing fee for everything over a hundred head. Senator Lane. What is it? Mr. Buck. I used to pay $2 a head a year. Senator Lane. How much do you pay now? Mr. Buck. At the rate of a dollar. Senator Lane. What kind of grass have you there? Mr. Buck. We have buffalo grass. Senator Lane. Do jtou put up hay for your sheep ? Mr. Perrine. That is the only insurance you have of stock, to have plenty of hay. 84 INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BILL. s Senator Lane. How is it that you happen to get free grazing and this man happens to pay for his ? Mr. Perrine. That was a pohcy that was instituted by Mr. Leupp when he was Commissioner of Indian Affairs to tax all stock on the reservation. That was before we had any sheep, and the Indians protested against that as being in the nature of a tax on industry and thrift; and they protested several times, and finally it ended by send- ing a delegation do^vn here, of which I was one, and we took the matter up with Mr. Leupp, and while he was very set in his views, stating that it was along the hne of policy of the department to tax Indian property in order to prepare them for a time when they assumed the duties of citizenship when they would have to pay a tax on their property, still we subinitted this fact to him, that the previous commissioner theretofore had been encouraging the Indian to save his property; everything was done to have him accumulate and save it for the time when his rations could be taken away from him and he would have to rely upon his stock in order to maintain himself. A great man}^ of the Indians did so and a great many did not; but those did accumulate property like an Indian up there by the name of Cut Bank Joh,^. He was a full-blood Indian and a member of the delega- tion that came down, and he could not understand why it was that previously he had been encouraged to accumulate the property, and when he had accumulated it they put this prohibitive tax on him. He could not understand it, and the statement was made by the office that it was on account of the efforts that were being made to show the Indian the duties that he had to perform the same as the white man who had to pay tax on his property. We made such an effective statement to him that he said all right; that he would take the tax off of the Indian cattle; remove the tax from them and leave the tax on the stray cattle; that is, cattle that is not issued by the department. That is where that matter stands. Senator Lane. You say you pay no pasturage fee for the use of the sheep ? Mr. Perrine. No, sir. Senator Lane. But my friend there, Mr. Buck, said he pays a dollar a head for his cattle. The area that you occupy, is that exclusively yours, so that nobody else can graze on it? Mr. Buck. No; mine is on the open range. The land is not held intact; it is just an open range — the same kind of range that Mr. Perrine runs. Senator Lane. Sheep are harder on a range than cattle, are they not ? Mr. Perrine. In that respect the cattle are turned loose under charge of a herder, and in other cases the sheep are under the charge of a herder by night, so that they can be held in a certain district. Senator Lane. But they eat the range cleaner than cattle do, do they not ? Mr. Perrine. Unless you move then frequently from place to place and not let them graze too long on one place. Senator Townsend. What do you say, Mr. Perrine, about the proposition of allowing the Indians to have something to say about the management of their own affairs ? Mr. Perrine. I like the idea. I think it is right. I think that the Indians should be consulted to a certain extent. INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. ' 85 Senator To WNSEND. I want to ask you, under this condition, would such men as yourself and Mr. Buck, and two or three others of those gentlemen who have suceeded, would you have your way about it, could you control the rest of the tribe ? Mr. Perrine. No, sir; you can not control an Indian. If he disagrees with you, he disagrees with you, and you can not control him. Senator To WNSEND. Would you be willing to allow the majority of your tribe to determine the policy for the conduct of that reserva- tion? Mr. Perrine. Well, now, in that respect, of course we are treading on dangerous ground. It might do where a great many of the Indians are educated and intelligent enough so that they can pick the right man; then it would be all right, and then again it might reach this result that an unprincipled man might come in there and promise that he was going to help them in this or that respect, and ne might gain such influence over them that they would have him come in there and appoint him as agent. It might go as far in one direction as it would in another. Senator Townsend. If he could not carry out his promise, how long would he remain there ? Mr. Perrine. If he got in there and they found out that he was crooked, the better element of course would fight against him right there. They would try to get him out; and it is jusf the same way on the other hand, where there is a good agent in there who is trying to enforce the laws of the reservation, and consequently there are some of them in jail for violation of the law. The criminal element, the law-breaking element are all opposed to him and want to get him out. So it is just six of one and half a dozen of the other. Senator Townsend. Is there a very large law-breaking element among the Indians? Mr. Perrine. No, sir; I would not say there is. The Blackfeet are all very law-abiding, take them all the way through. The Gov- ernment, I do not suppose, has experienced any trouble with that tribe of Indians, that is, in a large sense, such as other tribes — any outbreaks, or anything of that kind. Senator Townsend. Do thev understand the value of industry and thrift? Mr. Perrine. Some of them do. Senator Townsend. I am talking about the majority now. Mr. Perrine. Well, I do not know as the)'- do. Unfortunately, Indians, taken all over the reservation — I suppose it is true of the Blackfeet as of other reservations — take the majority of the full- blood ludians and they run to whisky too much, and it is also natural for an Indian to be lazy. An Indian in his native state will throw his work on his women; the women do aU the work, consequently the Indian always deems it degrading or beneath his dignity as a man or a chief to perform manual labor, and they throw all that work on their wives and women. It will take several generations to lift him out of that. Senator Townsend. What is being done to lift him up out of that condition? Mr. Perrine. There are works that have been instituted there by the department and they have been employing the Indians in con- 86 INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. struction work, canal work, and road building — such work as that. But outside of that there is not much work for an Indian to do unless he works for himself in building up ranches. INDIAN FARMER AND FARMING CONDITIONS ON BLACKFEET RESER- VATION. Senator Townsend. Does not your Indian farmer teach the Indian to do a certain amount of work ? Mr. Perrine. I do not think so. I do not think the farmer goes around among them at aU. Senator Townsend. What does he do ? Mr. Perrine. I think about the most occupation that he has is to draw his salary. Senator Owen. He does that regularly, does he not ? Mr. Perrine. I think so. I do not think he misses any pay days. I never heard of him doing it. Senator Townsend. Is he very popular with the Indians ? Mr. Perrine. I do not suppose any of the Indians know him much. Senator Lane. What is his name ? Of what use is he there ? Mr. Perrine. He is one of these industrial farmers up there, who is in charge of an experimental farm where they put down one of these irrigated sections, down where the reservation comes under the irrigation project; they have him down on the 40 acres to show to the Indian what can be raised on that particular 40 acres of land. As to the man, I can not say a word against him personally. He seems to be a good man and is doing his work, such as he can do down there, but the Indians not being interested in agriculture I do not believe there are two Indians out of a hundred who would go there to' see what he is doing, or pay any attention to him, and of course he does not go around among them and attend to their work. He is simply stationed at this particular farm. Senator Owen. Do any of them go down there to see how he manages it ? Mr. Perrine. I do not think so. Senator Lane. They are mostly stockmen, the Blackfeet, are they not ? Mr. Perrine. Yes, sir; they depend on stock raising. Senator Myers. Do many of the Indians have money with which to work and conduct their farms and improve them ? Mr. Perrine. I would not say they had; no, sir. Senator Lane. Have they enough money to buy implements with? Mr. Perrine. No, sir; they do not. Senator Owen. Does this farmer raise enough on the 40 acres to pay for his own salary ? Mr. Perrine. I have seen some haystacks on his place. Every time I pass his place and go to town he has some stacks of flax and such things as he raises there, but it has never been threshed. I want to do this man justice; I am not attacking him. He told me he would much prefer if he were sent around among the Indians to do their plowing for them and show them how to put in their gardens, etc., potatoes, and such other things as beets and carrots and other vegetables; he would much prefer to go out among them; but the INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 87 regulations told hini he must stay on his farm down there, and con- sequently he has to do according to what he is told. Senator Lane. Near what town is this ? ••■ Mr. Perrine. That is Browning. Senator Lane. Is not the farmer pretty generally occupied around on these reservations there doing chores, and putting up ice for the sunerintendent, and hauHng him around, and such things as that ? Mr. Perrine. They have regular laborers there. Senator Lane. But is not the farmer's crew kept busy waiting on him, hauling things and suppUes for the agent, and getting up wood and fixing up fences around here and there ? Mr. Perrine. They used to do that; but up to last fall the man who did that was a white man, and he was transferred away from there. He had supervision of that, and they had a little garden around close to Browning while he was superintendent and had the laborers all under his charge and doing work such as you mention. Senator Lane. And the teams, too, I am told, were kept pretty generally busy. Instead of the practical farmer showing the Indians how to throw a straight furrow 8 or 10 inches, his time would be occupied in hauling the superintendent and his guests around and using up horseflesh and the farmer's time doing such chores. Mr. Meritt. We have issued instructions within the last few days to superintendents to require them to get their farmers busy, trying to teach them how to farm instead of doing the other duties, and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs is determined that that shall be done. Now, I asked these Indians to talk for two reasons: One, because the Indians who are here are very progressive Indians; and another reason is the fact that we have in this room two sets of representatives from the Blackfeet Reservation who represent the different views of that reservation. I thought it would be helpful to get the views of both sides in connection with this legislation. It has taken a httle time, but I hope it has produced results. I thought it would be helpful to get the views of this other man from that particular reservation. fiQs name is Hamilton. GRAZING FEE, BLACKFEET RESERVATION. Senator Lane. Before he begins I want to ask you why it is that one of these Blackfeet pays $1 an acre a head for this pasturage, and another man pastures sheep around over the range and pays nothing? Mr. Meritt. There was a regulation in the ofhce requiring the Indians owning over 100 head of cattle to pay a grazing fee. We have a great many Indians in the Indian country who own more than 100 head of cattle, and it was necessary to put a limitation on the number of cattle that the Indians should graze free of charge, otherwise one Indian would get a larger benefit from the reserva- tion than the other Indians, We have a few Indians, mostly in the southwest, on the Navajo Reservations, who own large herds of sheep, and it is because of that fact, I suppose, that a new regulation has been issued regarding sheep. Senator Lane. I do not want to charge him; I do not ask that the man be charged. Senator Townsend. I think he ought to be charged. Mr. Meritt. I think so too. Senator. 88 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILD. Senator Townsend. I am not any more in favor of one Indian imposing upon his fellows than I am of a white man imposing upon his fellows. There ought to be some regulation for these things, to deal justly with all the Indians. The Chairman. What is the fee he pays, a dollar per head ? Senator Townsend. Yes. The Chairman. Down in Arizona our stock men think that 50 cents a head is an extremely oppressive price. He may have a supe- rior range to our men, but we pay 50 cents a head on various reser- vations. Mr. Meritt. They have a very fine range on the Blackfeet Reser- vation. On some of our reservations we get as high as $2.50 per head. The Chairman. Then you have a superior range. STATEMENT OF ROBERT J. HAMILTON (A BLACKFEET INDIAN). MANAGEMENT OF AFFAIRS BY INDIANS. Senator Lane. How many cattle have you on the range? Mr. Hamilton. In relation to the proposed legislation giving the Indian the right to see how his affairs shall be managed, last spring, or last winter when I was here, before we started to Washington, D. C, we concluded to advocate this proposition, giving the Indian the right to say how his money and the tribal land should be managed. That always has been my policy, to give the Indian a right to say what should be done with his land and how his money should be expended. kelative to the full-blood element of the Black Feet Reservation, for instance, you can not influence those men against their will. If they see that the affairs of that reservation have not been con- ducted honestly and properly, they are going to resent it and they are going to demand a just administration of their affairs, and if they see the agent or the superintendent is doing everything he can to uplift those Indians, that agent is going to get the support of every Indian whom he treats justly, and if he does not exercise partiality he is going to get their support and he is going to get along with the Indians much more peaceably, but it is going to antagonize a certain portion of them. He is going to be in hot water all the time. Therefore, Mr. Chairman, I favor that you should give us a right to say what shall be done with our affairs and how our money shall be expended. I have been asked by the joint commission to make a report to them as to the conditions and transactions on that reservation, and I think I have performed my duty in doing so to the commission, and owing to that fact the Blackfeet agent has become antagonistic to me and has done everything he can to run me down because I have performed this duty. Senator Townsend. Are you engaged in stock raising on the reservation ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. How much stock have vou? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 89 Mr. Hamilton. Only 20 head of horses left. I have no cattle. Senator Townsend. Did you have some? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. How many head did you ever have at one time? Mr. Hamilton. I had about 80 head. Senator Townsend. What became of them ? Mr. Hamilton. I ate them up. Senator Townsend. You ate them up ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir; and lost a good deal of them in that high water in 1906. Senator Townsend. Have you any sheep ? Mr. Hamilton. No, sir; Mr. Perrine is the only sheepman on the reservation. No others there own sheep. Senator Townsend. What have you to say to Mr. Buck's state- ment that the Indian can get along if he desires to get along on his own resources ? Mr. Hamilton. Certainly he can get along a whole lot better if you give him a chance to get along. Senator Townsend. He says you have a chance there. Senator Lane. He says you. have a chance there now. Senator Townsend. He says there is a chance there now for every Indian to do well if he wants to do well. Mr. Hamilton. A great many of them want to do what is right. For instance, a lot of full-blood Indians have gone to the superin- tendent and wanted to do well and wanted to use the plough that was purchased for the Indian, and he turned them down, and he has this farmer to run this machine — the management lies with the super- intendent. You can not expect an employee to do anything if no- body tells him to go ahead and tells him what to do; if you do not tell him what to do, he is going to lie down and do nothing. Senator Townsend. The last witness, Mr. Perrine, stated that this farmer was put on the experimental farm, and, under the regulations, was prohibited from going out among the farmers, but was to confine himself to this experimental farm. line riders and fencing. Mr. Hamilton. But we have had other farmers^ to go around and teach the Indians, but they never did so. For instance, there are eight line riders. I signed one of those line rider's affidavit to the commission that these eight line riders were keeping up the reservation fence, when therfe is no fence to keep up, and these eight line riders are out around the agency putting up ice, and chopping wood for the other employees to keep warm in the headquarters. Thev stayed right around the agency, and Mr. George Pablo, whose ajQB.davit was filed with your committee to this effect that he never knew he was a line rider until he resigned, then his resignation was accepted as a line rider, when he got his papers, and he thought he was a laborer. Senator Townsend. Are there eight line riders and no fence? Mr, Hamilton. No fence. Senator Lane. They are supposed to ride a line of fence ? 90 IKDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Hamilton. They are supposed to ride and keep this reserva- tion fenced up. " i u Senator Townsend. Is it not true that it is not simply to keep the fence up, but those line riders are put on there for the purpose of keeping the stock within definite limits ? Mr. Hamilton. Inside the reservation. Senator Townsend. Do they not take the place of a fence, these riders themselves ? They act as a boundary, do they not ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. Mr. Meritt. I was just going to suggest, Mr. Chairman, we have line riders employed on certain reservations in order to take the place of a fence, because we have no funds available to build a fence. Senator Lane. Was a fence ever built on the borders of this reservation ? Mr. Meritt. I could not tell. Senator Lane. Was there ever a fence built on that reservation? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir; the reservation was completely fenced on three sides. Senator Lane. What became of the fence ? Mr. Hamilton. It is destroyed, gone, stolen, sold, or something or other. I furnished you an affidavit to this effect. Senator Townsend. Who stole it ? I Mr. Hamilton. The white men. Senator Townsend. What did they do with it ? Mr. Hamilton. They took it onto their own premises. Settlers took it and used it for their own purposes. Senator Townsend. Was it a wire fence ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir; ^ve wires on this fence. Senator Lane. Did not the line riders know that? Mr. Hamilton. It was reported to the superintendent. Senator Lane. Who was he ? The same superintendent who is there now ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. This was reported to the superintendent. Senator Lane. How long ago did it happen that this fence was taken ? Mr. Buck. The affidavit that was signed, I think it was signed for 1912, when these Mormons took this fence away, and Q. G. Van Sanden used to be a chief clerk on the reservation at Browning, reported this matter to the superintendent and told him to arrest the man who was taking this fence off. Mr. Van Sanden did so, arrested this man, brought him into Browning, but turned him loose. He made no example out of him, and there is Van Sanden's and Charley Chatten's affidavit to this effect. Senator Lane. Do these other men know about that? Mr. Meritt. Mr. Clark does. Mr. Clark. I want to say that this gentleman who was arrested was not arrested for the fence; he owed Mr. Van Sanden some money and it was a personal affair for which Mr. Van Sanden arrested him, so it was not about the fence at aU. Senator Lane. Was there a fence there ? Mr. Buck. A fence was there one time, but it is not there now. Senator Lane. How did it happen to disappear? Mr. Buck. He just said to you how the fence disappeared. Senator Lane. How long ago was it built, do you know ? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 91 Mr. Buck. In 1904. Senator Lane. When did it disappear? How long did it last ? ^Ir. Buck. It stood there about three years, then began to dis- appear. Mr. Clark. I should Uke to give you information about this fence. The fence was built, then it was repaired for a few years, until the land began to be allotted, and then it was it gradually began to wear and tear and fall down. But there never was any of that fence that was ever sold to anybody. That fence was issued to any thrifty man, especially any who took allotments around the boundary of the reser- vation; portions of that fence were issued and it helped fence their allotments. S^Qator Lane. To the Indians? Mr. Clark. To the Indians. Of course, necessarily it had to be to Indians, because they got the allotments. I know that, because I asked the agent relative to that and that is the way the fence was. A great part of that fence was used through the reservation close to its borders to fence up the allotments that had been taken there. Senator Lane. Have you an allotment there ? Mr. Clark. Yes, sir^ Senator Lane. Have you got it under fence ? Mr. Clark. No, sir; I have not got any fence. Of course, there is some of the fence left yet along the lines where it was originally built, but there is not a man but what knows the fence was never sold. Senator Lane. I did not understand him to say sold. Senator Townsend. He said stolen or sold. Do you think any of that was stolen ? Mr. Clark. No doubt some of it was stolen, just like anything else is stolen, stock, and anything else, you know; but I suppose there could not have been very much of it stolen, because, of course, any of that that has been stolen would be brought to the agent's attention. He would have looked into it, because Mr. McFatridge is not that kind of an agent to allow anything to be stolen — any property of the Indians, to allow it to be stolen without looking into it. He con- ducted that on the same lines as he conducted the stealing of horses and cattle and the suppression of liquor. He worked to have us organ- ize a stock association over there for the purpose of suppressing this horse stealing, a'n'd we — ^Mr. Buck and Mr. Perrine and I — ^were mem- bers. I was secretary of the association, and he did his utmost to use that stock association to help suppress this killing and stealing of cattle; and since the organization of the stock association we have had less cases before the Federal grand jury and the court than we had theretofore, and he has been very vigorous in suppressing the liquor traffic. Senator Lane. Who would steal the horses and cattle? Mr. Clark. Oh, a number of people. Senator Lane. Whites or Indians? Mr. Clark. Whites and Indians, both. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, I was anxious that both sides should be heard to show that on each reservation we have different Indian factions. Some of the Indians will swear by a superintendent and others will swear at him. Senator Townsend. I realize that very well. 92 INDIAIT APPEOPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. It is a problem that requires some study to reach the correct conclusion. Senator Townsend. I have seen that in traveling over the reser- vations. The Chairman. Is that all you wish to say, Mr. Hamilton? Mr. Hamilton. More relative to rebuttal to this Van San den affair, that was my understanding from Mr. Chattham and Mr. O. G. Van Sanden's affidavit. The affidavit shows for itself. I did not see the operation. They furnished us affidavits; they signed it before a notary public about this fence, so I filed this report to the joint commission. The Chairman. The joint commission has all these facts there? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir; they have them now. They have been filed. They have been sworn to by different persons. Senator Townsend. This was all on the pomt, I suppose, of getting the Indians to take part in the conduct of their own affairs, which you are going to prepare as soon as you can, and the committee would look it over ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. DEPOSITS TO CREDIT OF KIOWA, COMANCHE, AND APACHE TRIBES. The Chairman. Item No. 106 has not been disposed of yet. Senator Townsend. I do not see any objection to disposing of these items, because this will be a separate provision. WITHDRAWAL OF TRIBAL FUNDS, KIOWA, COMANCHE, AND APACHE TRIBES. The Chairman. Then, in the absence of objection, item 106 is approved. The next item is No. 107, page 38 of the bill, Kiowas, Oomanches, and Apache Indians, discussed on page 553 of the hear- ings, appropriated last year, $250,000; estimated this year, $250,000; House bill, $250,000. Senator Lane. How many Indians are there there? Mr. Meritt. About 3,000 Indians. Senator Lane. This is what we have been talking about, is it not? Mr. Meritt. This is withdrawal of tribal funds to "be expended for the benefit of the Indians to be divided per capita, and the competent Indians will receive their cash and the incompetents will have the money deposited to their credit in local banks and paid out as needed. Senator Lane. Here is where it says they pay 10 to 25 per cent for the use of money. Mr. Meritt. We submit that as the argument, Mr. Chairman, as to why this money should be used. These Indians have between $3,000,000 and $4,000,000 in the Treasury of the United States. They have had unfavorable crop conditions in that part of Oklahoma. They need this money, and as long as they have the money in the Treasury they should not be required to borrow money from the local bankers and pay 15 to 20 per cent for it The Chairman. Fifteen to twenty per cent, could that be possible? Senator Lane. Sometimes they pay as high as 50 to 60 per cent. The Chairman. Have they no usury laws in that part of the country ? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 93 Mr. Meritt. They charge them excessive prices for everything they buy on credit. Mr, Bentley. May I offer a little testimony ? If the Indian gets $5 he is charged usually $7.50; $2.50 interest, if it is only for 30 days. The Chairman. Where is that, Mr. Bentley 1 Mr. Bentley. That is the general proposition down there. The Chairman. Where; in what State? Mr. Bentley. In Oklahoma. You are discussing the Oklahoma items, so my remark is addressed to it. In the dry farming down there nobody thinks of getting money under 1^ per cent, even the man who owns the best land. ' The Chairman. Let them come to Arizona and we can give them all the money they want at 7 per cent. Senator Townsend. You say your white farmers, with good secur- ity, can not get money for less than 1^ per cent? Mr. Bentley. No, sir; and if he has no land the renter must pay 2^ per cent per month and worse. One of my tenants was paying 10 per cent a month interest on $110 for a long time. That is the condi- tion down there. When it comes to the Indian, there is hardly any Hmit to the interest he wiU have to pay. First he may make a loan of $5; in order to get that $5 he makes his note for $7.50, and if he can not pay it, he gives a note for $10 next time, and within six months he may owe $50. Senator Townsend. Let me ask you right there — Senator Lane brought out that point a little while ago. You make the argument here that we should make an appropriation out of his fund in order to prevent this thing, but is not the practice being carried on now, even \\dth the appropriation of $250,000; and will not a portion of this money be used to pay back the money that was borrowed under those conditions and pay interest on it ? Mr. Meritt. None of this money will be used to pay exorbitant interest. As I stated to the committee a while ago, we recently had a debt commission appointed to go over all the claims against the Kiowa, Comanche, and Apache Indians. The unjust charges were ehminated from those bills and their bills have been paid out of the money appropriated this last Congress. Senator To^send. What do you regard as a proper rate of interest which you would allow? That your debt commission would allow under those circumstances? Mr. Meritt. Ten per cent should be the highest amount allowed. Senator Townsend. Is that the highest amount the commission allows ? Mr. Meritt. I think that is the basis on which the commission worked. The Chairman. Mr. Sloan. Mr. Sloan. I know a little something about interest m the Osage country. There are four national banks in the town of Pawhuska, which is the Osage Agency. Some time ago the bank examiner called upon two of the banks at least, and notified them they had to take their Indian notes out of the bank, and the reason stated therefor was that the excess interest amounted to so much in the way of a penalty that if suits were brought to recover the penalties they would involve the banks sufficiently so as to question their stabihty. They therefore took their notes out of the bank and a representative of the 94 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Citizens' Bank and the First National Bank organized a partnership, a loan company for the Indians. It is usually spoken of among the citizens and merchants of Pawhuska as the ^' skin shop." The practice down there is to make payments every quarter. The ^'skin shop^' does not loan any money for the first month after the payment, and then they charge that rate. Senator Townsend. What do you mean by that ? I do not under- stand that. Mr. Sloan. They do not loan the first month after the payment. The payment is every quarter, every three months. The first month immediately after the payment they do not make any loans. Senator Townsend, To any of the Indians ? Mr. Sloan. To any of the Indians. Senator Townsend. Are these payments all due at the same time? Mr. Sloan. Yes; they make a payment to the 1,700 or 1,800 Osage Indians every three months. Senator Lane. Oil rentals ? Mr. Sloan. They let them have $9 and take a note for $10, so that with the discount that loan would amount to 44 per cent per annum, but they compound it so that it runs up to more. The agent in charge of the Osage Agency approved of those transactions as done by that institution. Senator Lane. An Indian went into one of those banks, I was told a while back, to borrow $60 for one month. Out in our country they use gold. So he signed this note for $60, and the banker pushed three $20 gold pieces on the counter and pulled back one of them and that left $40. The Indian said, '^What is that for?" The banker said: ^^For the first month's interest." The Indian scratched his headj looked at it a minute, and pushed the other two twenties back and said: '^I take him three months," and turned around and walked out. Mr. Sloan. I happened to be present in this institution where they charge this 40 per cent. The man Brenner, whom I think is cashier of the First National Bank, was president at the time, and also Mi. Bird was there. A man came to the door and motioned for him to come over. He would not do it, so Brenner went over to him and he handed Brenner a check. The check was for moneys belonging to in- dividual Indians on individual Indian accounts; it was signed ''James A. Carrol," made payable to Rose Bigheart for $60 drawn on the Kaw National Bank, Oklahoma, indorsed by Rose Bigheart. The man who brought it there was one of the employees of the agency and he seemed to be acting as messenger for that institution; at any rate, helping them to make collections. Senator Lane. I want to ask if this is the fund. There was one fund down there on one of those agencies — I would have to look up last year's records — wherein there was $600,000 or $800,000 loaned out to banks Mr. Meritt. This money is in the Treasury of the United States. We have moneys deposited in the banks all over the Five Civilized Tribes. Senator Lane. What interest do you get for those moneys? Mr. Meritt. We get from 3J to 5 and 5^ per cent. The banks bid •on the money. INDIAN lAPPROPRIATION BILL. 95 The Chairman. Senator Townsend wishes to leave. There is one matter; may I get your opinion on it before we adjourn ? There are a number of citizens out of town - citizens from Omaha and St. Louis and other places- who wish to be heard at some length, evidently upon the item in the bill abohshing the warehouses. I am just in- formed by the clerk that a number of citizens have filed requests to be heard. Could we not set a date at which time they could be heard ? Senator Townsend. Is that not something we can take up ? Can we not get rid of this bill down to the disputed items and then take some time to discuss that ? I should Uke very much to get through with the bill, with the parts that are not in dispute, in order to give a httle better attention to these other things when we come to them. The Chairman. I agree with you wholly. I have no opinion on this warehouse question; I have not studied it. These citizens ask that a certain day be set, so they need not come the long distance they have to travel and be obliged to wait. Is it your idea that we might set a day next week or the week after that ? Senator Townsend. I could not say. It seems to me it would be better to set a day when we get a httle further along. But, as far as I am concerned, I am agreeable to anything you might adopt. The Chairman. In answer to their communications then aU we can say is they shall have a hearing ? Senator Lane. That we will give them due notice. The Chairman. vSurely. Mr. Meritt. Could we pass on this item now ? The Indians very much desire this appropriation. The same amount was appropriated last year. Senator Townsend. I am very much in favor of that, subject to the condition if we adopt the plan they be obliged to accept the money. The Chairman. In the absence of objection the same will be regarded as agreed to, item 107, page 38 of the bill, page 553 of the hearings. (Thereupon, at 4 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until Saturday, March 21, at 2 o'clock p. m.) SATURDAY, MARCH 21, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Ashurst (chauraan), Lane, Thompson, Clapp, and Townsend; also, Mr. E. B. Meritt, Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs. the INDIANS IN MINNESOTA — PAYMENT OF CHIPPEWA DELEGATES. Senator Clapp. Mr. Chairman, on page 20, between lines 12 and 13; I desire to mcorporate the following amendment: That the sum of $1,500, or so much thereof as may be necessary, is hereby appro- priated from the tribal funds of the Chippewa Indians of the State of Mmnesota now in the Treasury to pay the expenses incurred by the delegations of Chippewa Indians who visited Washington, District of Columbia, on business for said Chippewas and who were elected by the council of March twenty-fifth, nineteen hundred and eleven and December thirtieth, nineteen hundred and twelve, and also for the expenses of the duly elected delegates who attended the General Council of the Chippewas of 96 INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BILL. Minnesota, held at Cass Lake, Minnesota, on May sixth, sevr ith, eighth, and ninth, nineteen hundred and thirteen. Said sum of $1,500 shi' '^^-ome immediately available upon the passage of this act. I desire to say that they have their regular councils up there, and there is no regular fund to meet the expenses with, and also the delegations that come here. In fact, I tried the other day to have a delegation authorized to come, but it could not be done because of a want of authority. This has been submitted to Mr. Meritt, and T understand that there is no objection from the department. Is that correct, Mr. Meritt? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; we have no objection to that item. The Chairman. In the absence of objection, this item will bei^ approved, to be inserted at the page indicated, namely, on page 20, between lines 12 and 13. line riders on BLACKFEET reservation, MONT. Senator Lane. I want to ask Mr. Meritt a question. Yesterday there was some testimony before the committee in relation to line riders and fences on the Blackfeet Reservation — ;is it ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Are there line riders employed on that reserva- tion? Mr. Meritt. I think we have had line riders. Senator Lane. How many have you ? Mr. Meritt. I would have to look that up. Senator Lane. Who would know about that ? Mr. Meritt. Possibly Mr. Davis might be able to give you some information on that subject. Senator Lane. How many have you, Mr. Davis ? Mr. Davis. On page 442 of the hearings will be found a list of the employees at the Blackfeet Agency. In the second group, under the caption ' 'Indians," ^dll be found ' ' One line rider, $720 per annum; J ioYe line riders, each |480 per annum." ' Senator Lane. Ihere are how many altogether? Mr. Davis. There are six. Those are all Indian employees. Senator Lane. The fence is pretty well down, is it? How is the fence ? Mr. Davis. I have never been on that reservation, and I can give no further information — that is, no better information than what was given here yesterday. Senator Lane. The fence is pretty well down, from the state- ments made yesterday ? Mr. Davis. Yes, sir. The Chairman. It has been removed; it is gone — some of the fence ? Senator Lane. Yes; it seems to have disappeared. Are the posts ^ still standing — just the wires are gone and not the posts, perhaps? Mr. Davis. I would take it from the testimony that was given yesterday that the posts were quite well rotted out. Senator Lane. Those line riders are for the purpose of riding around the border of the reservation to keep cattle from encroaching upon it; is that right? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 97 Mr. Davis. That would be the presumption from the designation of the position, but as an actual fact the hne riders are used in the Indian servie<.«^«*^ v^^ly as assistant stockmen, and are subject to de- tail either to ridi/ .^, the hne or in herding and assisting in the roundup. Senator Lane, 'ftat is, in taking care of I. T>. herds? ^ Mr. Davis. Either the I. D. herd or any cattle that may be there belonging to the Indians, or to see that there is no trespass by out- side stock. Senator Lane. Outside stock could not trespass unless they came in from the outside, could they ? They would have to come in over the border, and the fence woidd keep them out if there was a fence there ? Mr. Davis. That would be true unless they were permittee cattle,- assigned to a definite territory, to be held within that territory. Senator Lane. If you rent a piece of land to a man and he speci- fied a piece of land upon which he is to run his cattle, does the Gov- ernment undertake to keep those cattle within that gentleman's reservation ? Mr. Davis. No, sir; only to see that he does it. Senator Lane. Just ride around and notify him ? Mr. Davis. To ride in the territory to see whether his cattle are being held, and if not, to see that they are put back. Senator Lane. How many line riders did you have when you had the fence there, do you suppose? Mr. Davis. I do not know. Senator Lane. How long has this fence been built — when was the fence built, do you remember ? Mr. Davis. I can not answer that. As I say, I have not been there in person. Senator Lane. Would you require as many line riders if you had a fence as you would if you did not have a fence ? Mr. Davis. Ordinarily not. Senator Lane. Somebody stated here yesterday — and that was what I was trying to find out — that there were a certain number of line riders there; that there is the same number now as there was formerly when they had the fence, and it did not seem to make a difference whether you had a fence or not in the number of line riders that were employed. It seems to me if you had a good fence you would not need so many for the reason that they would not have to ride around the borders of the territory to keep the cattle from encroaching on the reservation. You would require fewer men if you had a good fence, and therefore, in making an investment for a fence, which the Government did at one time, it woidd save the expense of the employment of riders to ride the lines. I think the term "line rider" means that they are to ride along the line of the reservation. Is that not right ? It would seem so, ^ir. Meritt. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. There is no way of finding out anything, whether you have more or less, or whether you have the same number of line riders that you had when the fence was in good order, or anything about it 1 Mr. Meritt. As I understand the situation, the fence has been .built seven or eight years, and it has been torn down now for about three or four years. 39746— PT 1—14 7 98 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. The Chairman. It was built in 1904, and was torn down in 1907, it seems to me. Mr. Meritt. Line riders are now necessary to take the place of the fence. If we had the fence there of course we would not require line riders to the number that we now have. Senator Lane. As I understood the testunony of the witnesses yesterday, the superintendent or the Governrnent has given away this fence to people to fence in their allotments with. Mr. Meritt. Allotments have recently been made on that reserva- tion, and I suppose the superintendent allowed the Indians to take the remnants of- the fence that was down to fence some of their allotm.ents. I am not acquainted with the real facts of the case, except as I heard here yesterday. Senator Lane. It seems to me if you had line riders when you had the fence— the same number that you have now— and the fence was there, it would be the duty of the line riders to see that the fence was not torn down and taken away. It is not a hard thing to detect that, but it is evident that the fence disappeared at the time you had men employed to ride the line of the fence and see that it was kept intact and to prevent trespass or encroachment upon the Government land. Now, as near as we can ascertain, there are the same number of line riders there and no fence, and I do not know what they are doing now. Mr. Meritt. We will look into that, Senator, and see how many line riders there are. Senator Lane. But we are looking into it now, and we can get no information at all about it. Mr. Meritt. Of course it would be necessary to get the information for several years back because we were not connected with the office at that time. , Senator Lane. I find a good deal , of it is that way. Jt is very hard to get definite information respecting this bill. This bill calls for an appropriation approaching some ten miUion dollars, and the large lacK of information — detailed information — is just such as this. It is astounding. Now here is a case where you have a fence. The Government builds a fence to prevent encroachments from the out- side, and that is what every farmer builds a fence for, to keep cattle from straying onto or off his range, and then hires riders to see that it is kept in repair and does not disappear. At the same time, you are paying men to prevent it, and either the Government agent gives it away or somebody carries it off. Senator Clapp. Allowing the Indians Senator Lane. And still keeps the same number of line riders. Senator Clapp. Allowing the Indians to have what there may have been of the remnants of the fence. You could hardly char- acterize that as the Government giving away something. Theo- retically, it was put there by the Indians, the only difference being that when it was a line fence it was a community affair and when the remnants were taken by some individuals for their allotments, it became individual. That would not warrant you in stating that it was given away. Senator Lane. These Indians said it was given away. Senator Clapp. It went to the Indians for their own allotments. Senator Lane. Surely; it was given to them for use in fencing their allotments. Here was a fence that was put up to keep cattle off the INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 99 reservation, and it began to disappear. You know when a fence begins to go it did not go merely a few hundred yards at a time. They hauled it off by the mile ; they used a wagon, and it should have been easy to see who took it. It is not hard to repair a wire fence if broken by accident. You can stop such gaps by making repairs. That is what farmers always do. When a hole is" cut in a fence they do not abandon the fence. The farmer goes and fixes it up. If you had a fence there it is quite natural to presume that you would not need so raany men to guard against the encroachment of' cattle from the out- side — whether there are the same number employed now as there were, I do not know. It seems to just jog along. Senator Clapp. What reservation is this ? Mr. Meritt. The Blackfeet Keservation. Senator Clapp. The riders were not put there so much with the idea of keeping the fence up nor was the fence, I think, considered so essential a feature. The riders were put there to prevent conflicts' between cattlemen and the Indians. There has been some trouble out there. There have been some parties killed, have there not? Mr. Meritt. We have always had more or less trouble on the reservations. Senator Clapp. That was the object — a sort of peace patrol. Senator Lane. And you put up this fence for the same purpose ? Senator Clapp. No ; the patrol was kept up there to preserve peace between the cattlemen and the Indians, and they would be needed to-day, probably, if that fence was just as good as it ever was. Mr. Meritt. It is a matter that occurred several years ago, before my connection with the oflice, but I would like to state that condi- tions on the Blackfeet Reservation have changed very materially within the last few years. Congress has authorized that the reser- vation be allotted and that the surplus land be thrown open to entry. The Indians have received allotments. It is probable that this fence has been taken down, because the Indians have been given individual allotments, and it is the duty of the superintendent to see that the Indians make as good use of their individual allotments as possible. They probably no longer had need for this line fence as a tribal propo- sition; but in view of the fact that the fence was partly destroyed, the superintendent may have reached the conclusion that it would be better to use the remaining fence to fix up the individual allot- ments of the Indians, in view of the fact that Congress had authorized these allotments to individual Indians. Senator Lane. That may be true. It may be found to have been a matter of poHcy. I do not question that. But at the same time it attracts my attention to the fact that the Government is at this time engaged in building a fence for the purpose of keeping cattle separate ' between the lessees and the Indians on the Crow Reservation. You are pursuing one policy on the Crow Reservation and just the opposite policy on the Blackfeet. I know that you are building a fence across the Crow Reservation, square across it, and not on any border fine at aU, separating cattle on the low ground from those on the high ground, and to the Indian is assigned the low ground and the lessees the high ground, and you are spending money to build a fence there for the purpose of doing identically the thing which you say you are trying to adcomplish by puUing the fence down on the Blackfeet Reservation. 100 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. But the fence on the Crow Reservation is being built and is for the purpose of keeping the cattle of the lessees out from the allotments of the Indians. Senator Lane. At Crow Reservation ? Mr. Meritt. At Crow; yes, sir. Senator Lane. And at the other place they take it down for the purpose of keeping them from trespassing. On the same theory, what is good for the Blackfeet is bad for the Crows. Mr. Meritt. I will be glad to find out what the facts are in this case. Senator Lane. I do not think you will be able to do it. They have disappeared. Senator Clapp. You will find that on the Crow Reservation there is no conflict, no force, and no danger of any. It will be a fence well built to answer the necessary purpose. At the other reservation, at the time this line-rider system was adopted, there was more or less confhct. There was more or less force being used. While a fence would be all right for stock it would not be all right to preserve peace between those Indians and those people who were quarreling with them. Whether that condition still exists I am not prepared to say, Mr. Hamilton. Perhaps I can give a little more hght on the sub- ject. This fence is about 180 miles long, and before it was built there was considerable trouble on that reservation to collect the grazing tax from stockmen living up on the reservation. So the Indians held a meeting and proposed to have this reservation fenced so we could coUect a grazing tax from those cattle on the reservation. The superintendent at that time consulted the district attorney about the matter, and he said the Indians could not collect anything because the reservation was wide open, and the only way they could collect any grazing tax there from white people coming on the reservation was to fence the reservation completely. So the Indians agreed to that and put up the proposition to the Government. So it was built. After the allotment act passed they wanted to take these cattle off. We protested against taking these cattle off the reservation and there was a petition circulated on the reservation to keep them on until these allotments were approved. That was about three years ago. I also find some of those cattle still on the reservation without paying the grazing tax, and the grazing tax has not been enforced under the theory that they have moved off the reservation. Then we wanted to keep this fence up as a protection in collecting this grazing tax. The settlers took this fence off a little at a time, taking the posts off for firewood as they hved a long way from timber in the mountains. Now, the eastern side of the fence, in the north- east, is aU gone. In the northeast, that is, about 45 miles from Browning, there are no Indians. There are some allotments, but of no importance, and no Indians took that. One man named Johnson — I am sorry I did not get his affidavit; he got shot before they got around to him. He said verbally to me — he was a white man — that he got a permit from the superintendent to take this fence off for 20 miles. So he took the wire off for that distance and fixed part of it. They always permit the fuU-blood Indians to take their wire off Senator Lane. All right. INDIAN APPKOPKIATION BtLL. 101 CIVILIZATION AND SUPPORT OF CHIPPEWAS IN MINNESOTA. The Chairman. The next item for consideration is item No. 65; page 23 of the printed bill/ page 416 of the hearings, as follows: The Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to withdraw from the Treasury of the United States, at his discretion, the sum of $185,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, of the principal sum on deposit to the credit of the Cliippewa Indians in the State of Minnesota, arising under section 7 of the act of January 14, 1889, entitled **An act for the relief and civilization of the Chippewa Indians in the State of Minne- sota," and to use the same for the purpose of promoting civilization and self-support among the said Indians in manner and for purposes provided for in said act: Provided, That not to exceed $20,000 of this amount may be used in the purchase of lands for homeless nonremoval Mille Lacs Indians, to be immediately available and to remain available until expended, said lands to be held in trust and may be allotted to said Indians, in the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior, subject to the provisions) . the act of February 8, 1887 (24 Stat. L., p. 388), as amended. The estimate was $185,000. Senator Lane, How did they happen to give you $50,000 more than you asked for ? ^ Senator Clapp. I will explain that. The Chairman. I will state that this item was passed over yester- day by reason of the absence of Senator Clapp. Senator Clapp. I think perhaps the language ought to be changed a little. It is a long story with regard to those Mille Lac Indians. The proposition is to buy some land for them and the $50,000 was added to the $165,000 of last year's appropriation — that was the amount appropriated last year, $165,000, and the $50,000 would make $215,000. I do not know but that it is a matter for the depart- ment. I do not think that the bill ought to read so that it could be construed that the $215,000 should be used unless the $50,000 was. I think the $50,000 should be a separate item. Mr. Meritt. We would be glad to have that change made. The Chairman. Senator Clapp, will you take that under your care and arrange the amendment so that on line 25, at the bottom of page 23, it wiU read $165,000, and another item of the other amount. Is there any further discussion as to this item ? Senator Lane. Some one stated here yesterday that they did not want to do this; that some of them were opposed to it and that they preferred, some of them, to hve on the land assigned to them, which they already owned. Senator Clapp. What is that ? Senator Lane. Some of those Indians would as soon live, or pre- ferred to take land, on the reservation that the Indians aheady owned and save the expenditure of this money. Senator Clapp. That is the trouble. These Indians do not own any land. These Indians now have a claim pending against the Govern- ment in which they will recover a very large amount. They have already recovered a very large amount. It has been hard to get these Mille Lac Indians to move up to White Earth. ^ Senator Lane. They do not want to go there. It was stated that they wanted to go to some other place Senator Clapp. That is exactly it*. • Senator Lane. Where they do not have to purchase land. It would not cost the Government a cent. Senator Clapp. I do not know that you could get any land to-day f/->Yi cs-^ Ti-ir1ir.T-> rvf r\T\c\ friKo f.alrinor if, r»nf, nf f.Vip. rpsprvntinn hplnncino* 102 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. of another tribe without paying for it. There may be lands in the Crow Eeservation in excess of the allotment that will be requu"ed on Crow Reservation, but we would have no right to turn over a portion of the Crow Reservation to Indians of other tribes who had failed to secure allotments within their own reservation without paying them for it. Senator Lane. Where did you say that was, Mr. Beauleau? Mr. Beauleau. Under the act of 1902 the Chlppewas of Minnesota were allowed to go up on any of the reservations which they had obtained. Mr. Henderson can explain it better than I. STATEMENT OF MR. DANIEL B. HENDERSON. ■ Mr. Henderson. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the comniittee, this Mille Lac Band is one of the Mississippi Bands of Chippewa Indians residing in the State of Minnesota and originally had a right to allotment on their own reservation at Mille Lac, but the Mille Lac iileservation was thrown open to white settlement by an act of Con- gress, and in that way they were deprived Senator Clapp. That was long ago. Mr. Henderson. Yes, sir; many years ago under an agreement made between the Government and the Mille Lac Indians in 1902, whereby an appropriation of S40,000 was distributed among the Mille Lacs. There was a provision inserted which permitted the Mille Lac Indians to take their allotment either on the White Earth Reservation or on any other ceded reservation lands in the State of Minnesota. So if there are allotable lands stiU Senator Clapp. There are no allotable lands on the White Earth Reservation. I do not think there are any allotable lands left on the Mississippi Reservation around Cass Lake, etc. Of course Red Lake has not been allotted, but I am rather inclined to think that if these were to go into Red Lake there should be an accounting to the Red Lake Indians for the value of the land that is allotted to the Mille Lac Indians. Do you not so regard it, Mr. Meritt ? Mr. Meritt. Under the law, Mr. Chairman, they probably would have a right to take allotment on any of the Chippewa reservations. But we have been met by this condition: The Mille Lac Indians absolutely refuse to live anywhere else than around Mille Lac Lake. We have employed a commissioner to endeavor to locate the Mille Lac Indians elsewhere. Some of them went down and took allot- ment on the White Earth Reservation. They stayed there only a short while and then gave up their land and went back to Mille Lac Lake. They are now hving there, between 200 and 300 of them, in a very deplorable condition. They are without funds and it is necessary that the appropriation be made to get these Indians located on land on which they would live. Senator Lane. I thought you said they had $500,000 left after you spent this amount of money. Mr. Meritt. They have no funds of their own available without the approval of Congress., We are now asking for the, approval oi Congress to use $50,000 of the funds of the Chippewa Indians to buy lands for this branch of the Chippewas. It is not a gratuitous appro- priation, but we are simply asking authority of Congress for the use of the tribal funds. INDIAN APPEOPKIATION BILL. 103 Senator Lane. And that is what it says here: The principal fund is being added to constantly and although Congress appropriated $165,000 therefrom for the fiscal year 1914, there was on November 10, 1913, over $500,000 more in the principal fund than when the appropriation for the previous fiscal year was justified. Senator Clapp. That will keep increasing, Senator Lane, year after year. Senator Lane. It won't if you keep nipping into it at the rate of $215,000 a year. Senator Clapp. This is interest, most of it. It is all covered by the treaties. But the point is that the department can not take that fund unless it is authorized to take it. I should question, perhaps, the fairness of that authorization, were it not for the fact that the Mille Lac Indians already have recovered a large judgment against the Government, and a very large judgment wfll be affirmed under any view of the case, so that the general Chippewa fund will receive through the claim of the Mille Lac Indians much more than we are taking out here for the Mille Lacs. Senator Lane. Here is what was attractmg my attention. Here are Indians reported as being in a condition of dire distress, im- poverished, miserable, and wretched, and there is also a statement that they have no money, and we appropriate $215,000, which is said to come out of their funds to buy land in a certain, definitely specified place. -We have the assurance of one gentleman here that a good portion of these Indians do not want to buy land there and spend money for it, but are perfectly willing to- live at other places. It looks as if we, actmg as guardians, were handling funds for a people without their consent and contrary to the wishes of many oi them were buying property for them, when we could secure the land necessary without spending a cent, and we could use this money and make the others comfortable, if they wanted to hang around Mille Lac. They seem to have plenty of money, and yet they are hard up. The interest is increasing faster than they can spend it, and yet they are impoverished. The condition is anomolous. Senator Clapp. Senator Lane, that may exist at any time. Senator Lane. I think it exists all through. Senator Clapp. Because these Indians can not use this money V without our authority, nor can the department use the money without our authority. Senator Lane. That is right, and we grant such authority in such a way that it keeps them impoverished . That is the kind of authority we are granting now on this subject. Senator Clapp. This authority would not impoverish them. Senator Lane. I do not say it would. I say that a presentation was made here yesterday by a man who says he represents them that many of them would as soon live on land that we can furnish them without spending any of this money, but if this is the better place for them I am wiUing to spend it; but whatever else you are doing you are merely goiiig to buy land for them at this time. Mr. Meritt. It is to buy land so that they will have a permanent home. Senator Lane. When you buy the land it is logged over— stumps. Mr. Meritt. It is on the border of the lake and is probably not •n-Qlnol-vln fnr +.im ViP.r. 104 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Lane. It has been logged over. Mr. Meritt. I suppose the land has been logged over. Senator Lane. If you, any of you, want a real joyous time, some time when you have nothing else to do go to logged-over land and dig out stumps and make a farm and see what your financial con- dition will be. If you are not going to stand behind them and help them and buy farming implements for them to f^rm with, and horses, you are putting them up against a hard proposition. Mr. Meritt. We are not required to buy any particular tract of land. If we are given this appropriation, we will buy land that is suitable to their needs. Senator Lane. But you are not giving them anything to farm it with. This appropriation ought to be doubled. You need $430,000 here instead of $215,000. You want to buy $215,000 worth of land. If we do that, we ought to give them $215,000 more, for it costs from $50 to $100 an acre to clear that land, logged-over land, before it wiU be worth a penny to them. As I say, I think you ought to double your appropriation. You are buying poverty for them, and next year they will be in a worse condition than they are now. I know about it. I have lived in that kind of a country. Senator Clapp. We are only talking about $50,000. One hundred and sixty five thousand dollars is the regular annual appropriation. Senator Lane. It reads: The Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to withdraw from the Treasury of the United States, at his discretion, the sum of $215,000 Senator Clapp. But $165,000 of that is the regular annual appro- priation, made year after year. Senator Lane. For those Indians ? Senator Clapp. Yes. Senator Lane. For what purpose? Senator Clapp. For civilization of the Chippewa Indians. Senator Lane. And they are going hungry? Senator Clapp. No; they are not going hungry. Senator Lane. I understood that their condition was not good; that they are poor, wretched, and miserable. Senator Clapp. Let us get the figures right. You keep on saying $215,000. Senator Lane. Well, it says so here. Senator Clapp. Because there has been added to it $50,000. I will tell you once more: $165,000 is the regular annual appropria- tion. Now it is proposed to add $50,000 to that for the purpose of buying some land, and the question is with regard to the $50,000. Senator Lane. If $165,000 is withdrawn, and with that amount taken out to be used for their civilization and support and neverthe- less they get into the depths of poverty, will you not add to their distressed condition by spending more for that purpose ? Senator Clapp. No; the point is. Senator — if you would get at the bottom of this — that it does not do any good, nor could the department fairly use this money for the Indians who are not upon Indian land, either tribal land or allotted land. Now these Indians are off the reservation. They have no land of their own, except one 80-acre tract, which was granted to them some years ago. If they could get an allotment on the reservation, then the department INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. 105 could use this money for teams and plows^ and such things, upon the Indians' lands. , Senator Lane. I understand that they can do that. Senator Clapp. But they would not be justified, it seems to me — and that is their view, i and I think they are right— in using this $185,000 to buy plows and teams and different things for the Indians upon lands that they do not own. Senator Lane. I understand the Goyernment has allotted these Indians, and allowed the Indians to secure allotments on another reser- vation, and that they are perfectly willing to go. Now, to take this $50,000, or $5,000, or any other amount, and put these people on logged-over land, or stump land — buying land for them without making provision for them to improve it or to live upon that land, is to impoverish them in the worst possible way. Senator Clapp. At the same time he gets a piece of land there by allotment or purchase, and then he would fall autoinatically into the use of his share of the $165,000. You say right off the bat that they want to go somewhere else. Senator Lane. No; I said they were willing to, as it was represented here yesterday. I did not say that ''off the bat." I want to get you right on the ''bat" question. Senator Clapp. The department has been for years trying to get these Indians at White Earth, which was made a general residuum reservation for allotments. They would go up there and then Mi\ Indian would hike back to Mille Lac. Now it is claimed they would , be willing to go to White Oak Point. I doubt whether the land is there. 1 do not know whether Mr. Meritt can say off-hand whether there is sufficient land there for these people there or not. Senator Lane. I do not know anything about where White Oak Point is, or where Mille Lac is, but it Was stated here by a gentleman — what is his name ? Senator Clapp. Mr. Beauleau. Senator Lane. Mr. Beauleau represented yesterday that there were lands that they could go upon, and that they were willing to go, but they did not want to go on White Earth. I do not know what the objection was, but some of them preferred Mille Lac, but there was another place where the Government owned land that many of them would go. If they went on that land at White Oak Point, or whatever the name is, and the Government has land upon which they could be allotted, it would be much better to give them this land and then give them the money to put it in shape so that they could Uve upon it rather thau buy them stump land and turn the poor fel- lows loose without any means of clearing up that land. Senator Clapp. I have already told you that the moment they get title and buy a piece of land they would automatically fall under the use of $165,000. Senator Lane. They had $165,000 last year, did they not? Senator Clapp. But the department does not feel — and I am in- clined to think legally they are' right about it— that they can use this money to buy lands that are not owned by the Indians. If there are lands enough at White Oak Point, well and good. I have understood from the department time and again that there were not, and I think before we settle the matter we should know if there are lands at Whitp Oak Point subiect to allotment, and if these Mille Lacs who 106 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. have gone to Wliite Earth and gone back to Mille Lac still have allot- ments that have not been canceled on White Earth, then of course the department would not buy any land for them and would not have any occasion for using this money. . Senator Lane. They would not have to buy it at White Oak Point ? ^ I Senator Clapp. They would not buy it. Senator Lane. I see. Senator Clapp. If they had allotments that have not been canceled. Senator Townsend. This is the situation, Senator Clapp, that disturbs me, and that was the reason I asked to have it go over until you got here to explain it. It is not clear to me that these Indians have not been on allotted land already, or some of them, on some one of these reservations, or that they had lands standing in their names, some of them, that are not clearly canceled. Now, it is not clear in my mind that these Indians have located on the place where they would like to go. We had under consideration yesterday a proposition of amending all of these appropriations by putting in a provision to the effect that where appropriations are made out of the Indians' funds, the Indian shall be consulted first wdth reference to that matter. Senator Clapp. Yes. Senator Townsend. Now, it looked to me as though we were working in the dark on this proposition. There was nothing definite worked out, and I thought you might be able to explain it to us. Senator Clapp. My explanation as to the status of the land is based upon the information which I have heretofore had from the Indian OflGlce. Every Httle while the cases have come up where Indians who had not yet got their allotments would bring the matter up, and I have brought it to the attention of the Indian Office and have been advised that all of the land outside of the Red Lake Reservation has been taken by allotment — not only White Earth, but at White Oak Point, and what we call generally the Mississippi reservation. Now, if that is a mistake, if there are lands there still subject to allotment, or if the allotments which those Indians have taken, some of them at White Earth — or rather have been assigned to them at White Earth, and then the Mille Lac Indians have gone back to Mille Lac — if those assignments still stand open, if they have not been allotted to other Indians, that would solve all of that question. I had gone upon the theory, and have several times referred to the department in reference to obtaining allotments for unallotted Indi- ans, and I have been advised by the department that the land was all exhausted, except, of course, up in Red Lake, which stands upon a little different footing, and if these Indians went into Red Lake, I am rather inclined to uhink the Red Lakers should have some compensa- tion for it. Now, Mr. Beaulieau, who is very familiar with the condi- tions up there, and who is one of the tribe, tells me that he thinks there is land at White Oak Point subject to allotment, and he thinks as to the Indians at Mille Lac, to whom allotments were assigned in White Earth, that those allotments still stand subject to the right of these particular individuals to take them. If that is correct, of course, as to those people, both at White Oak and at White Earth, and those who still have allotment right retained at White Oak Point; ■ INDIAN APP±tOPEIATION BILL. 107 and to those who still have allotment right retained at White Earth, there would be no necessity of buying land for them, and I suggest that we could strike this out for the present or let it stand until we get ready to report the bill, and in the meantime get the actual fact as to whether there is available land. I think you will concede that if there is no available land we should make some provision for these people. Senator Townsend. I want to ask you a question now, Mr. Meritt. You made an estimate here for $185,000. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. That did not include the purchase of any land, did it? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; that included $20,000 to purchase land for homeless Mille Lac Indians. ^ I would like to call attention to the fact that we have been careful in drawing this item so as to provide money for homeless Mille Lac Indians only. That would not recjuire a dollar nor permit us to pay a dollar for land for Mille Lac Indians who had allotments on their own reservation or elsewhere. We are up against the real proposition on this MiUe Lac question. The department here- tofore has detailed a commissioner — Commissioner Hall — who worked, I believe, two or three years trying to get the Mille Lac Indians removed to the White Earth Reservation. Those Mille Lac Indians absolutely refused to leave Mille Lac Lake. During his two or three years' work he only removed approximately 20 Indians, and practi- cally all those Indians have since gone kack to Mille Lac Lake. Those 20 want land around this lake; they will not live anywhere else. We are trying now to use a small part of this large fund of these Indians now in the Treasury to get land on which they may live. Senator Townsend. Have you made an estimate for all of the homeless Indians in your proposition ? Mr. Meritt. We estimated that we could buy for $20,000 a small tract on which these Indians could live. They are not farming Indians; they are fishermen. They fish and hunt, and we expected to buy a small acreage for those homeless Indians — those Mille Lac Indians, who have no land elsewhere — in order that we could pro- vide a school for their children. It is estimated that there are be- •tween 60 and 70 children of these homeless Mille Lac Indians without any school facilities whatever. Senator Townsend. You want $30,000 more. Your estimate is made on the basis of caring for homeless Indians ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; for homeless Mille Lac Indians. Senator Townsend. What is this other $20,000 ? What would you do with that if you had the extra $30,000 ? Mr. Meritt. If we needed it, we would probably buy additional land. Senator Townsend. You have not made any estimate, or found that you needed it, have you ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; this additional $30,000 was added in the )House without our request, on the commendation of Representative Miller. He thought we should have not to exceed $50,000 available for this purpose. If we did not need the $50,000, under this language we can use $20,000, or may use $30,000. We will not use any more than is necessary, but it is absolutely urgent at this time that we get the annroDriation to provide these Mille Lac Indians with some land 108 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. on which they can live. They will not live on White Earth. They will not live anjnvhere else than on this reservation and around Mille Lac Lake. Senator Townsend. And they have no allotments on White Earth 1 Mr. Meritt. There may be a few Mille Lac Indians living around this lake who have allotments on White Earth Reservation. They have a right under the law to take allotments on the White Earth Reservation, or any other of the Chippewa reservations under the act of Congress, which reads as follows: And said Indians upon removing from said Mille Lac Reservation shall be permitted to take up their residence and obtain allotments in severalty either on White Earth Reservation or on any ceded reservation in the State of Minnesota on which allotments are made to said Indians. Senator Clapp. That are ceded ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Clapp. That is what I have been saying. They could not go into Red Lake Reservation. Senator Townsend. Now, that would not include any Indian who has an allotment, would it ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; not a dollar of this appropriation would be used to buy food or land for any Mille Lac Indian who has an allot- ment elsewhere. This is for the purpose of providing land for home- less Mille Lac Indians. Senator Townsend. Senator Clapp, why do you think — if you do so think — that this amount should be increased over the estimate of the department ? Senator Clapp. Without reflecting upon the judgment of my colleague in the House, I had nothing to do with this matter until it reached this committee. Mr. Miller, in whose district I think they are — they are in his district, are they not, Mr. Beauleau ? Mr. Beauleau. Yes, sir. Senator Clapp. Upon his own motion in the House raised that to $50,000 ? Senator Townsend. Do you not think it would be better to let that go according to the estimate and to have a conference if the matter should come up ? Senator Clapp. Yes, sir; there might be some question whether, the word ''homeless'' covered a case where an Indian had an allot- ment or an allotment right inchoate, and it strikes me it would be well to insert after the word ''Indians" on lifie 11 — I am using the Senate bill, which is the one I use in all of these hearings — the words ^'to whom no allotment has heretofore been made." Mr. Meritt. That amendment will be acceptable to us, Senator. Senator Lane. How many of those Indians are there? Mr. Meritt. There are about 200 of those Indians now living around Mille Lac Lake. Senator Lane. How much money would they get out of that for the purchase of land ? Senator Clapp. Senator Townsend, I have no objection to reduc- ing that to the original amount, then I will talk with Mr. Miller and the department. We will leave it subject to conference anyway. The Chairman. That will make it read on page 23, line 25 of the comparison, $185,000, and on line 9, page 19 of the Senate bill— page 4 of the comparison — that wiU read $20,000. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 109 Senator Clapp. In line 25 of page 18 make it ''$165,000/' so that in conference if we find that there is enough land subject to allotment we can leave the entire item out; otherwise we can not go below the $185,000. That will fix it so that if you want to throw the whole item out you can throw it out in its entirety. Senator Townsend. That is line 25, at the bottom of page 18, strike out $215,000 and insert $165,000 ? Senator Clapp. Yes. The Chairman. That will be agreed to in the absence of objection. It leaves that item, $165,000, as it was last year. Senator Lane. That would throw out your $50,000, v/ould it not ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. That is the same as it was last year. Senator Lane. I do not care about it being the same. I think it ought to be made double if they are going to buy stump lands for those Indians. I am informed by Mr. Meritt that those people are not farmers, and this appropriation would give them about $250 apiece, if tliere are 200 of them, estimated at an average of $20 or $30 an acre. If they are not farmers, and whether they are or not, the more of that logged-off land they have the worse off they are going to be, and if they are fishermen and make their living in that way you ought to be buying them fishhooks and nets. This is all hum- buggery. It is enough to riiake a person tired, buying a lot of stump land, that a farmer could not farm if he wanted to, for fishermen. Mr. Meritt. This will improve their present condition. They are living in shacks and are being kicked from pillar to post around that lake. They are not farmers; they make tneir living by fishing and hunting. Senator Lane. Then you ought to buy them fishhooks ? Mr. Meritt. But they have no homes in which to live. They need small garden patches, and this will enable us to provide an equipment for them. The Chairman. The item is agreed to, without objection. . Senator Clapp. Adding, after the word ''Indians,'' in line 11, the words I have given you — ' ' to whom no allotment has heretofore been made." The Chairman. Yes. Senator Townsend. The suggestion has been made to me, Mr. Commissioner, that if you should find that there are Indians on the White Earth Reservation, and some others, who will not live there, and that allotments had been made to them on this reservation and they continue to come back to Mille Lac, you do not need any author- ity now to exchange those allotments for lands elsewhere. Is that a fact, or do you dispose of it ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; we have authority, however, to sell with the, consent of the Indians, the lands allotted to them on the White Earth Reservation, and we could use the proceeds of the sale of the land in purchasing land elsewhere. Senator Townsend. Why could that not be done in this case, where there are some Indians who are constantly moving back away from the reservation? Could their land be sold? Is there any market for it? r^ : 110 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. In this case but few of these Indians have ever gone to White Earth. They refuse to go to White Earth. They want to live nowhere but around Mille Lac Lake. Senator Townsend. I am talking about such Indians as have allotments. If you find there are any allotments that have already been made to them at White Earth, but they will not live there, would it not be well to sell their land and purchase land for them elsewhere ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; we would be glad to do that for them. Senator Townsend. You can do that without any act of Congress ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; under existing law. Senator Lane. Are these rather intelligent Indians ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. I judge so. They refused to live at White Earth. Senator Clapp. Now, on line 9 of page 19, strike out the figures ''$50,000," and that will leave the whole subject for conference. I make that motion. The motion was agreed to. Senator Lane. Is this entire item agreed to ? The Chairman. No; $165,000 is agreed to but the $50,000 is stricken out, if I understand it correctly, and in the meantime the commissioner will have to ascertain what sum is necessary to get the land, and it will be put in in conference. Senator Clapp. It is so adjusted now that in conference we can practically strike out this whole proposition to buy land or we can retain that proposition respecting the $20,000, and decide on $20,000 instead of $50,000. Senator Lane. I am going to object to this item and protest it until the facts come through showing more justification for it than we already have. ' COUNCIL HALL FOR CHIPPEWA INDIANS. The Chairman. The next item is 67^, on page 28 of the printed bill. That item was passed over until the return of Senator Clapp. (The item referred to is as follow^s:) The Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to withdraw from the Treasury of the United States the sum of |1,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, of the .principal sum on deposit to the credit of the Chippewa Indians in the State of Minne- sota, arising under section seven of the act of January fourteenth, eighteen hundred and eighty-nine, entitled "An act for the relief and civilization of the Chippewa Indians in the State of Minnesota, " and to use the same for the purpose of constructing and furnishing a council hall at such point as he may select, for the use of the Indians living in the vicinity of Sawyer, Minnesota. The Chairman. There was some discussion on this item yester- day and it was temporarily passed over. Senator Clapp. Mr. Meritt knows whether a council hall is needed there or not. Mr. Meritt. This item was not included in our estimates. It was incorporated in the bill, I believe, by Representative Miller of Minnesota at the request of some Indians from the Chippewa Reser- vation. There is no urgent need for this appropriation m our judg- ment, but we have no objection to the item being included in the bill if it is the wish of Representative Miller and Senator Clapp. The Chairman. Is there any objection to this item? (There being no objection, the item was agreed to.) INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Ill UNALLOTTED LAND OF THE FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The Chairman. The next item is 124, page 45 of the comparison, the discussion being on page 599 of the hearings. (The item referred to is as follows:) That the Secretary of the Interior be, and he is hereby, authorized to use not ex- ceeding $40,000 of the proceeds of sales of unallotted lands and other tribal property belonging to any of the Five Civilized Tribes for payment of salaries of employees and other expenses of advertising and sale in connection with the further sales of such tribal lands and property: Provided, That not to exceed $10,000 of such amount may be used in connection with the collection of rents of unallotted lands and tribal build- ings: Provided further, That during the fiscal year ending June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and fifteen, no moneys shall be expended from tribal funds belonging to the Five CiviLized Tribes without specific appropriation by Congress, except as fol- lows: Equalization of allotments, per capita and other payments authorized by law to individual members of the respective tribes, tribal and other Indian schools for the current fiscal year under existing law, salaries and contingent expenses of gov- ernors, chiefs, assistant cliiefs, secretaries, interpreters, and mining trustees of the tribes for the current fiscal year at salaries not exceeding those for the last fiscal year, / and attorneys for said tribes employed under contract approved by the President, under existing law, for the current fiscal year. Mr. Meritt. Mi\ Chairman, a similar item was included in the bill last year. This is to give authority to use tribal funds to enable the department to dispose of the property of the Five Civilized Tribes, required by existing law. We would like to have included after the word ^'property," in line 21, the following amendment, which has been recommended by the Commissioners to the Five Civilized Tribes: Including the advertising and sale of the land within the segregated coal and asphalt area of the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations, or of the surface thereof as provided for in the act of Congress approved February nineteen, nineteen hundred and twelve (Thirty-seventh United States Statutes at Large, page sixty-seven), and of the im- provements thereon: Provided, That $10,000 of the amount above appropriated shall be immediately available. Congress has required the department to dispose of the unallotted lands within the Five Civilized Tribes at the earliest practicable date. During the last year the department has sold a very large acreage of the unallotted land in the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations. The department has also sold some timber land in the southeastern part of the Choctaw Nation. Those sales have been made to home- seekers on the deferred payment plan. We have additional land to sell in the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nation, for example, the segre- gated coal and asphalt lands around McAlester, to the amount of 450,000 acres. We are now preparing regulations to dispose of this land in compliance with an act of Congress, and we would like authority to have an item in the bill this year similar to the item m the Indian bill of last year to enable us to carry on this work which is required by existing law. Senator Lane. What-does this land bring; the- average last year per acre, farm land ? Were any farm lands sold last year? ]VTr IVrFRTTT ^yes sir. Senator Lane. What are the lands worth down there ? Mr. Meritt. The lands of the Choctaw-Chickasaw Nation vary from $8 to $40 an acre for farming purposes. Senator Lane. What will this timber land be worth ? Mr. Bentley. Mr. Chairman, may I offer a suggestion? Senator Lane. Do you know anything about it ? 112 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. STATEMENT BY MARTIN J. BENTLEY. Mr. Bentley. As legislation is being framed up from time to time for the disposition of the land of the Choctaws and Chickasaws, I would like to have the record show that there is put before this com- mittee this fact, that are now unenroUed among the Choctaws 250 minor, orphan, full-blood children, and incompetents, yet the de- partment and the Indian Bureau, from year to year, continue the sale and disposition of the tribal lands under present statute providing for the disposition of all of it. Never a line or a word for the protec-, tion of those helpless full-blood children and these crazy and insane and incompetent Indians. The Chairman. I am, for one, in sympathy with your purpose, but as we go through life we observe that it seems useless to suggest abuses unless we can point out a remedy. Have you a remedy to suggest? Mr. Bentley. Indeed I have, Mr. Chairman. If you provide in this bill that the orphans, full-bloods, and incompetents of the Choc- taw and Chickasaw Nation, who are entitled to enrollment, as shown and certified by the Secretary of the Interior heretofore to this com- mittee—shall be allotted out of the segregated lands which it is now proposed to sell, you will have taken care of all these people. The coal under the land is of no concern to them. It is the surface. Let the coal be sold, but retain these allotments of the surface for these minors and orphans and incompetents, and you will have done fuU justice to all of them. I can prepare an amendment upon the sub- ject if the committee will entertain it. The Chairman. Suppose you make a tentative draft of amend- ment so that the committee can consider it. Mr. Bentley. I will be very glad to do so. Senator Lane. That sounds fair. You draw up an amendment and we wiQ look into it. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Bentley has brought up a question that was fought out on the floor of the House of Representatives. There was a hght as to whether or not such people should be enrolled as members of the Five Civilized Tribes. This fight was led in the House by Representative Harrison of Mississippi. Senator Lane. That is in regard to the Mississippi Choctaws, though. That is different from this, is it not, Mr. Bentley ? Mr. Bentley. It is different in this, that the House voted to sus- tain the proposition that those off the rolls should be provided for before the funds were distributed. Mr. Meritt. The propositions are together. Senator Townsend. They are all on the same footing. Mr. Meritt. All on the same footing. The question of enroUiag the Mississippi Choctaws and the question of enrolluig certaiu people in the Five Civilized Tribes who were left off the roll. Now the department is probably in favor of the enrollment of cer- tain classes who were left off the rolls. That matter is, however, a very difficult question and it does not arise in connection with this item of legislation. That question would arise if we attempted to included an item here authorizing per capita payments to the members of the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations which would take out of the INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 113 Treasury the money now to their credit and would not leave a suffi- cient balance if those people were subsequently decided by Congress to be entitled to enrollment and pay them their pro rata share of the funds of those tribes. This, appropriation, however, is simply for the purpose of enabling the department to carry out the laws already passed by Congress, and which will not interfere at all with the rights of the enrollment of these people. This legislation in question is approved by the department. It is approved by the tribal attorneys of the Choctaws and Chickasaw Nations, and I think it is approved by the eh tire Oklahoma delegation. The Chairman. Would this amendment of Mr. Bentley's relate to the opening of the rolls in any way ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sh-. ' ' The Chairman. Then it is more serious than it would appear at first blush. Mr. Bentley. If you will permit me The Chairman. Let the honorable commissioner finish what he was saying first. Mr. Meritt. It would, and in view of the gi-eat importance of the question that he now has opened up, it would be my duty to oppose any legislation whatever on that subject until it was submitted to the department for consideration. We have no prejudice in this matter whatever. We are just as much interested m seeing that the Indians of the Five CiviUzed Tribes who have been left off of the rolls get their rights as Mr. Bentley or anyone else. We have sub- mitted legislation to Congress heretofore which, if it were enacted; would take care of this class of people referred to by Mr. Bentley. But it is a very important subject and a very big subject, and should not be considered now. The Chairman. I agree with you that it would be very Hke open- ing Pandora's box of evils to propose any such amendment as that on this bill, and I did not know that the amendment would have the effect of doing that. !Mr. Bentley. My proposition does not open the rolls. My amend- ment will provide that before the surface of the coal segregation in Oklahoma shall be disposed of the minor orphan children and fuU bloods and incompetents of the Choctaws and Chickasaws who are entitled to enrollment shall be enrolled. This can not in any sense be considered as opening the rolls. They have always been entitled to enrollment from their birth. This question of enrollment, in my opin- ion, is made a great bugaboo of. There is an expensive lobby being maintained at an expense of $40,000 or $50,000 a year by those who are now enrolled, and in the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations there has always been a small group of men who have manipulated that entire country to their advantage. Before the Indians were allotted a few men controlled it all, and it is that same chque that are eternally trying to dispossess, and keep from allotment, any person whether full blood or minor, or whoever he may be, and the records of the department show that of the adults and minors there are some 2,000 down there not enrolled but who are entitled. I am 9nly appealing to this committee to protect the orphan full- bloods, minors, and incompetents who have no way of protecting themselves, and if legislation is carried out as now proposed by the 39746— PT 1—14 8: 114 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION B3LL. department, the time will come when there will be nothing but money to give them, and money is the curse of the Indian. You can not do anything for him in that way. But those surplus lands that are to be disposed of will make ideal homes for those children. It is splendid farming land and is entirely sufficient to take care of them, and I believe that this committee, without danger to anybody and with absolute justice to everybody, can provide an item of legislation that will do justice to them and give them their tribal proportion. Surely it is not the disposition of anybody to give more to those who jiave already been made rich by the division of the land and leave these poor helpless orphans and full-bloods and minors with nothing. Senator Lane. Do you mean that your amendment would apply to children who were born of parents living right in that country and not to the Mississippis at all ? Mr. Bentley. Those who are absolutely Indians — full-blood minor orphan children, born in Oklahoma. Senator Lane. I do not see any objection to that. Mr. Meritt. The rolls of the Five Civilied Tribes were, under the act of April 26, 1906 (34 Stat. L., 187), closed by operation of law on March 4, 1907. The department since that date has not had authority and could not place a single name on the rolls of the Five Civilized Tribes. We have no objection whatever to Congress providing for the enrollment of any Indian who has a clear equitable right to enrollment among the Five Civilized Tribes, but it is not a proper question, in my mind, to be included in this particular item, and if tne matter is to be seriously considered I would ask that the item be passed over until Senator Owen could be here to give an expression of his views on this subject. It is a very important subject indeed. Senator Townsend. I do not agree with the commissioner, that we do not have any authority, or that he does not have authority, to put these men on the rolls. I am perfectly convinced from the hearings we had last year that there are between 200 and 300 Indians whom the department has already recognized as entitled to go on the rolls that there is no dispute about except Congress, by its act, foreclosed the opportunity of putting them on there. I think it was a mistake to foreclose them. I think those Indians are entitled to go on this roll, but until we change the law, of course, the department can not allot those Indians any lands because by express terms we have pre- cluded that. But I think myself that something ought to be done, because some day some cute lawyer is going to come here and we are going to be held for the land that belongs to these Indians who have been excluded from their ranks. Mr. Meritt. I intended to convey the meaning that the depart- ment was now without authority of law to place any additional name on this roll. Senator Townsend. I understand that. Mr. Meritt. Congress, of course, has authority to place a»t any time any name on the roll that it might see fit. Senator Townsend. And I think that ought to be done. Mr. Bentley. Mr. Chairman, in connection with the request of the commissioner that Senator Owen be present, if proper I would like to ask that the matter be deferred until Senator La FoUette is present. Senator La FoUettee has interested himself in the minor orphans and INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 115 helpless ones down there, and I feel certain that he would want to be heard before the matter shall have been passed upon. Senator Clapp. That may be passed for the present. The Chairman. The item on page 45 is passed temporarily. Senator Townsend. I do not think that has anything to do with this particular item here. I think that question is one that ought to be disposed of, but I do not think it is up at this point. The Chairman. We can approve that item. Senator Lane. With regard to this item, you are selling those coal lands. How much is coal land worth down there ? Mr. Meritt. We are selling the surface of the coal land, Mr. Lane. Just the surface? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. And that sells for what price ? Mr. Meritt. From S8 to $30 or $40 per acre. The proceeds from this sale would be deposited in the Treasury, and we are not allowed, and have not the authority, to make per capita payments without specific authority of law. Senator Lane. And it pays interest, does it ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. . t Senator Lane. For the benefit of these Indians at som« future time? Mr. Meritt. For the benefit of the enrolled members of the Choc- taw and Chickasaw Nations. Senator Lane. Do they need the money? If you are holding it for future they can not be in need of it now. Mr. Meritt. Some Indians have need for part of this money now. Senator Lane. And you will have to get authority from Congress to pay it to them ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Representatives of Oklahoma attempted^ in the House to have inserted in the bill an item authorizing a per capita payment of $100 each to the members of the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations. That item went out because of a fight on the floor of the House of Representatives led by Representative Harri- son, of Mississippi. If that item were in this bill there would be a basis for the objection raised by Mr. Bentley. Senator Lane. When did you begin the sale of these lands — how many years ago ? Mr. Meritt. We sold most of the land within the last two years, that is, most of the unallotted lands. Senator Lane. How much money did you get for it ? Mr. Meritt. We have four or five million dollars derived from the sale of this land. Senator Lane. Have you paid any of it to the Indians ? Mr. Meritt. Congress, two years ago, authorized a small per capita payment, I believe it was something like $50 apiece. Senator Lane. How much did that take out of that total? Mr. Meritt. It took less than $2,000,000, if I remember correctly. Senator Lane. What is the condition of the Indians, are they prosperous and healthy ? Mr. Meritt. The condition of the Choctaw and Chickasaw Indians AS a rule is very good. Senator Lane. They are farmers ? 116 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. They are farmers, and merchants, and bankers, and politicians. They are active in every walk of Hfe i that country. Senator Lane. And are they capable of taking f are of their money if it were turned over to them ? i i? n ui ^r Mr. Meritt. Part of them are and part are not. The full-bloods are not capable of taking care of their funds. Senator Lane. You have two classes, those who are competent and those who are not competent ? Mr. Meritt. We have no designation by classes for the Choctaws and Chickasaws. They are enrolled because of degree of blood. Senator Lane. Are they supposed to be competent to take care of themselves ? Mr. Meritt. Not all of them are supposed to be competent. We have a large number of full bloods in the Choctaw Nation that are not competent. Senator Lane. I object to selling his land or giving him money and putting it where he will lose it. I think the Indian's lands should be held inalienable. Mr. Meritt. This land is not land that has been allotted to them. It is surplus unallotted land. Senator Lane. But it belongs to them. It is community property. Mr. Meritt. Each Choctaw Indian has been allotted 320 acres. Some of the Choctaw famihes have in their possession from 1,500 to .2,000 acres of land. Under the existing law we are required to sell the surface of the segregated coal and asphalt land and we are simply asking funds to be made available now in the Treasury that belong to the tribe so that we can carry out the existing law. Senator Lane. You retain the coal and asphaltum; that still be- longs to the Indians ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. And the oil or minerals ? Mr. Meritt. There is no oil land; no oil development in that par- ticular territory. Senator Lane. Coal and asphalt? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. As to the coal land, the coal is estimated to be worth anjrwhere from $15,000,000 up. Senator Lane. They are going to be good picking for a long time to come ? The Chairman. Have you an amendment on this point ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; I offered it a few minutes ago. The Chairman. On what page do you want it inserted ? Mr. Meritt. The amendment I would Uke to have inserted after the word "property," in line 21, on page 45, is as follows: Including the advertising and sale of the land within the segregated coal and asphalt area of the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations, or the surface thereof as provided for in the act of Congress approved February nineteenth, nineteen hundred and twelve (Thirty-seventh Unitea States Statutes at Large, page sixty-seven), and of the improve- paents thereon: Provided^ That $10,000 of the amount above appropriated shall be immediately available. The Chairman. That is $10,000 of the $40,000 ? llr. Meritt. $10,000 of the $40,000. Senator Townsend. I move that it be agreed to. The motion was agreed to. The Chairman. The whole item is agreed to as amended. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 117 BCHOOL BUILDING AT BEMA, MINN. Senator Clapp.^ Turning back to ''Minnesota/' on page 21 of the Senate bill, page 2S of the comparison, I desire to say that there is an old building at Bema, Minn., and the people have been trying up there — and 1 have had some correspondence with them about it — to have the building turned over to the village to be used as a hospital, and I have prepared this amendment, and I would hke to have your views, ^Ir. Meritt, with regard to it: That the building at Bema, Minnesota, is hereby granted to the village of Bema to be used as a schoolhouse, together with so much land as the Secretary of the Interior may determine, not exceeding thi-ee acres, and the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to convey said property by a deed: Provided, That the children of the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota shall have access at all times to the school maintained therein. Senator Townsend. That is Indian property now, is it not ? Senator Clapp. No; I guess it was an old agency. ]Mj. Meritt. That building was used for school purposes until recently. Senator Townsend. Was it Indian property? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; Government property. It is no longer used. A httle village has grown up there. This building, I should say, was worth anythwere from $300 to $500. It is an old building and the village has passed a resolution that they will accept and maintain it as a hospital and for no other purpose. Senator Townsend. What right have the Indians to that — any at all now? Mr. Meritt. No; I do not think they would have. Senator Townsend. The Indians have no interest in this proposi- tion at all, have they? Mr. Meritt. They have this interest: A number of Indians in that community are now without school facilities, and if it is agreeable to Senator Clapp we would prefer that that building be turned over to the town of Bema as a school, for school purposes, with the under- standing that the Indians may have access to that school at all times. Senator Townsend. That is what I was going to suggest. Senator Clapp. The Indians have no right, in one sense. - I very cheerfully accept Mr. Meritt's suggestion. I did not suppose it was intended" to have any school there, and I supposed the village had a school building because they seem to want this for a hospital. Mr. Meritt. I have information to the effect that the school, facilities at that town are inadequate for the whites and the Indians. Senator Clapp. Then I will very cheerfully turn it over to the village for a schoolhouse. Mr. Meritt. I have no objection to the item, ii so amended. Senator Townsend. That is, inserting that the Indians shall have the advantage of it; that they shall be permitted to attend school there. As I understand it, this property belongs to the Government and not to the Indians. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. i i .i t t o Senator Townsend. But it has been used by the Indians i Mr. Meritt. It has been used by the Government for school fa- cilities for the benefit of the Indians; yes, sir.» 118 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL.. Senator Townsend. And now the proposition here is for the Gov- ernment to turn this over to that city or town and give it a deed to this property, including the 3 acres and the building ? Senator Clapp. So much as it seems fit, not exceeding 3 acres. Mr. Meritt. With the understanding that Indian pupils shall have access to the school. Senator Townsend. I am voting for that on the understanding it does not belong to the Indians, who have simply been using it for their school purposes, and I want that to be continued. The Chairman. Who are the grantees under this? Senator Townsend. The Government; it belongs to the Govern- ment of the United States, I understand. The Chairman. I thought they were granting it to the United States ? Senator Clapp. The United States is granting it to this village. The Chairman. To the municipality of Bema. Senator Clapp. Yes ; the United States is the grantee, and the Sec- retary of the Interior will execute the deed. Senator Townsend. Do you know how much that property is worth, Mr. Meritt ? Mr. Meritt. About $500. The building cost about $500. Senator Townsend. Mr. Beauleau, do you know anything about this ? Mr. Beauleau. I only know that the building has been used for school purposes, and I understood it was built by the Chippewa tribal funds. Senator Townsend. That is what I wanted to get at. If the In- dians built that, I do not think we ought to give that away. Senator Clapp. I quite agree with you. I understand that at one time a school was maintained there. I understood it was Government property, and they finally quit keeping school there. There is an office building now, and it is standing there now doing no one any particular good, and the village took up this subject of a hospital; but, at Mr. Meritt's suggestion, I am agreeable to making it a school. Something ought to be done with it. It either ought to be used or sold and disposed of. It is simply rotting down. Senator Townsend. Suppose we pass that for the present and let Mr. Meritt present to us on Monday the real situation with reference to that bill. It is rather nebulous now, to my mind, and I do not want to vote without understanding the proposition thoroughly. Senator Clapp. Suppose we do tms. Of course, we will be consid- ering other portions of the bill, and it takes time to go back. Sup- pose we put it in with the understanding that upon subsequent con- sideration, if you desire, we will strike it out, or strike it out in conference. Senator Townsend. I do not see that it makes any difference which way we do. Senator Clapp. No ; except that we would be bothered with it again. Suppose we have that understanding that it goes in subject either to your objection or being stricken out in conference. Senator Townsend. AU right. I want the commissioner to find out the facts with regard to it. Mr. Meritt. We will look into the matter very carefuUy and advise you later. INDIAN APPBOPRIATION BILL. 119 INDIAN DAY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS. The Chairman. The next item is on' page 6 of the comparison, item No. 5, as follows: Provided, That no part of this appropriation, or any other appropriation provided for herein, except appropriations made pursuant to treaties, snail oe paid any em- ployee in any position in the Indian school service who does not hold a certificate showing that such emj)loyee has passed the necessary examination required by the Civil Service Commission for such position, except such employees as are exempt under civil-service rules, and no part of it shall be used to educate children of less than onp-fourth Indian blood whose ^ arents are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they live and where there are adequate free school facililies pro- vided and the facilities of the Indian schools are needed for pupils of more than one- fourth Indian blood: Provided further, That no part of this ap ropriation shall be used for the support of Indian day and industrial schools where specific appropria- tion is paade: Provided further, That not more than $20,000 of the amount herein, appropriated may be expended for the tuition of Indian children enrolled in the public schools. Senator Clapp. Right there, the House has put in this provision. I declare I do not know any way that we can interpret it: Provided, That no part of this appropriation, or any other appropriation provided for herein, except appropriations made pursuant to treaties, shall be paid any em- ployee in any position in the Indian school service who does not hola a certificate showing that such employee has passed the necessary examination required by the Civil Service Commission for such position, except such employees as are exempt under civil-service rules, and no part of it shall be used to educate children of less .than one-fourth Indian blood, etc. In the first place, there is no such thing, I think, as a certificate. Holding a certificate showing that a person has passed a civil-service examination entitles them to be put on the eligible list, and then thev are subject to being drawn for employment. Now, ''except such employees as are exempt under civil-service rules." As I uncferstand it, the employees are exempted from civil-service rules by act of Con- gress in various cases, but those employees who are under civil-service rule by act of Congress can not* be exempted from civil-service rules by the Civil Service Commission, as I understand it, and I think we ought to strike out from the wprd "Provided," in line 7, down to the word ''rules," on line 14 of page 6, and put that in conference and see if we can figure it out in some way. The Chairman. This would nullify the amendment We adopted the other day of Senator La FoUette's, which provides that they can employ certain people there without regard to the civil service. Mr. Meritt. This particular item was included in the bill by the House. It was not recommended by the department. We would like to suggest that the words to be stricken out be somewhat different from the suggestion of Senator Clapp. . In the judgment of the depart- ment the lines that should be stricken out are beginning with the word "shall," after the word "treaties," in line 9, down to and in- cluding the word "it" in line 14. That wiU make the item read as we estimated. Senator Clapp. That would be about the same thing. The Chairman. In the absence of objecti,on, the words referred to will be stricken out; that is, commencing with the word "shall," on line 9, strike out all thereafter down to and including the word "it" on line 14. This item was estimated at $1,500,000; appropriated last year, $1,420,000; House bill, $1,440,000. 120 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. This is one of the most important items hi the bill. This item provides for our Indian educational system, except the schools that are specifically appropriated for, namely, the nonreserva-* tion schools. We have 74 reservation boarding schools, 216 day schools, and 37 nonreservation schools. The nonreservation schools are provided for specifically in this bill. The other schools are cared for out of this appropriation. We have a total enrollment of 58,721 in all schools; tnat includes the reservation schools, nonreservation schools, day schools, and mission schools. Senator Townsend. How many scholars is this supposed to provide for, this $1,500,000? Mr. Meritt. This provides for approximately 16,900 Indian « children. Senator Townsend. About $80 per scholar. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; this appropriation also provides for the clothmg and food of Indian children. Senator Townsend. I am in sympathy with the schooling proposi- tion. We discovered something was wrong with the schools, but I found a most hopeful thing; that is, I did, in my examination. I found in the Indian schools that many of them were to be criticized on account of the character of the people in charge, yet I think the schools are doing great work. Do you know why the House cut out $60,000? Mr. Meritt. They wanted to keep all the appropriations down to approximately what they were last year. Senator Townsend. Do you know how they happened to hit exactly upon $1,440,000? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Townsend. There were no particular items or things they wished to cut out that you are doing ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; it was simply to reduce the total of the ap- propriation. Senator Thompson. That is $20,000 more than you had last year? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; but Congress appropriated last year money to build additional schools, and we will have additional enrollment next year of approximately 1,200 children, I think, and we also hope to provide with this appropriation for children who have not so far had school facilities. I want to insert after the word, ''therewith," in Ihie 6, the followmg words: ''including support and education of deaf and dumb and blind Indian children. The Chairman. On line 6, page 6 of the bill, after the word "there- with," we will insert the amendment which the commissioner has just suggested. Senator Townsend. There is no provision for that class now. Mr. Meritt. No, sir; there is no provision for deaf and dumb and blind Indian children, and I have the figures here showing 77 blind children and 68 deaf and dumb children. This report is not complete. There are certain reservations from which we have not heard. Senator Townsend. What do you propose, to have a school where you will take in all the blind, deaf and dumb from all over the reservation ? ^Ii'. Meritt. We have not worked out a definite program as yet. We hope, however, to provide for these unfortunate Indian children. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. ' 121 Whether it would be advisable to segregate the blind children in one school or to teach them in the schools that we now have provided, is a question that has not been definitely decided by the commissioner. Senator Townsend. You can not get them in one school where they will not have to go away from the reservation. Do you not think you ought to work out a plan to be presented to this com- mittee by which you are going to work? You say you have no idea just how you are going to do that. If there is only one blind, or one deaf and dumb, in one school how are you going to teach that blind and deaf and dumb scholar ? Mr, Meritt. We have given the matter a good deal of thought, but have not adopted, a definite program. We have with us Mr. Peairs, the supervisor of Indian schools, who has given this subject consid- erable thought, and I would be glad if you might hear him on this question. Mr. Peairs. It would seem that there might be one of two ways of doing this; either to have the schools specially for the deaf and dumb and blind, or to place them in some of the large schools aheady in existence, simply as departments of those schools, but generally it is thought better to segregate them entirely, if that can be done. There will be the objection, of course, made on the part of the parents to allowing their children to go to schools outside of the State, or off -the reservation, but it certainly might be necessary to take those children either to special schools or to schools where departments can be estabhshed. Senator Townsend. Can you get those scholars into the State iastitutions? There would be a few of them, for instance, in each State. Would it be possible to make some provision with the State authorities to maintain schools of this kind for the benefit of the Indian children who aie unfortunate as to deafness? Mr. Peairs. In some cases I think that can be done; in fact, it has been done in some instances, but in a good many of the States the institutions are crowded, and it has been impossible to get them in. Mr. Meritt. In this case, if we can get the Indians in the local institutions, I think we will have authority under this bill. Senator Townsend. I understand, but what I am getting at is this: Have you worked this out sufiiciently so that you are in a position to ask Congress to make an appropriation of a certain sum of money for the work you have in mind ? Mr. Peairs. I think that we have planned carefuUy enough. We have made a very careful study of the number. The time has come when we feel they must be cared for in one way or another. Senator Townsend. They certainly should be. Mr. Peairs. And we are now at work trying to determine how many can be put in State institutions. Some undoubtedly can be. Senator Townsend. Your amendment does not set aside any par- ticular portion, but includes everything you might use ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. .1 think I have no objection to that. Mr. Meritt. I might say that this amendment which I have sug- gested is an item which particularly appeals to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. He came into that bureau and found a large number of these deficient Indian children who were not receiving any attention, whatever, and it is really a duty to humanity to provide facilities of 122 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. some kind for them, and we will do the best we can with the appro- priation. Senator Townsend. I move the adoption of the amendment. (The amendment was agreed to. The paragraph as amended was agreed to.) SURVEY AND RESURVEY OF LANDS. Senator Clapp. On page 2 of the bill is the provision for the sur- vey, resurvey, classification, etc. Mr. Merit t, the survey division of the General Land Office calls my attention to the fact that they are constantly met with objections by the comptroller, and they ask to add this after the word '^expended," on line 14: Provided, That the surveys shall be made in accordance with the provisions for the survey and resurveys of public lands, including traveling expenses and per diem allowances in lieu of subsistence to those emj)loyed thereon, and when necessary the Secretary of the Interior may employ in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, such assistants as are required in the preparation of final returns of the surveys of Indian lands made under the direction of the Commissioner of the General Land* Office. He tells me that we need something of that sort to relieve the embarrassment on these accounts with the comptroller. Mr. Meritt. I have that same language here, which I intended to offer when we reached the general items. I will look after that, Senator. ' Senator Clapp. Very well. Then I will give it no further attention. Senator Townsend. I have so many committee meetings to attend that I am not always here, so if the committee should happen to reach item 61 under the school items — that is, the Michigan item — and there should be any objection to the department's estimate, I would ask to have it passed. The (GJhairman. We can take that up now. Mr. Meritt. Before we take that up I have a letter, which has been written to Mr. Sniff en, of Philadelphia, which explains the use we make of this general appropriation and gives a good deal of detailed information which might be of some assistance to the com- mittee, if there is no objection to it going in the record. It is a good justification for this item which we have just passed, the $1,500,000 item. The Chairman. Without objection, the letter will be inserted. (The letter is as follows :) March 16, 1914. Mr. Matthew K. Snipfen, Recording Secretary Indian Rights Association, Philadelphia, Pa. My Dear Mr. Snipfen: Referring to your informal request of a few days ago for a general description of Indian educational work, it is hoped that the following will give you the information you desire. There are in the United States approximately 73,000 Indian children eligible for enrollment in school. Of this number over 27,000 are in Government schools under the direct control of the office of Indian Affairs; 3,200 pupils are educated by the Indian Office under contract with mission, private, and public schools; and 14,000 are in the public schools of Eastern Oklahoma, in aid of which the General Govern- ment appropriated and disbursed through the Indian Office last year $300,000. Thus there is a total of 44,200 Indian pupils in schools under the control of the Indian Office. In the Navajo and Papago countries, where it is estimated that there are at least 7,000 Indian children without school facilities, and on a few other Indian reservations additional school facilities must be provided by the Indian Office. Under a special I INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 123 appropriation of $100,000 in the current appropriation bill for increasing school facilities on the Navajo Reservation, these schools are now being constructed. Plans are also bein§ made to increase school facilities for the Papagos. For those Indian children who have access to the public schools, but will not attend, the office can do but little; but for those in States where they are not legally entitled to attend, our field officials are encouraged to cooperate with the State authorities to effect their enrollment if practicable in the public schools, but if not, then in some other school. There are maintained by the Indian Office 37 nonreservation boarding schools with an enrollment of 10,702; 74 reservation boarding schools with an enrollment of 9,523; and 216 day schools with an enrollment of 7,359, an increase over the enrollment of 1912 of more than 3,000 pupils. This increase was due to the activities of superin- tendents and supervisors in encouraging Indian children to enter school, they having been instructed to exercise unusual diligence in such matters, and also to the growing interest in the ed.ucational welfare of their children manifested by Indian parents. So far as practicable Indian schools adopt the course of study used in tlie public schools of their respective States. These courses, however, are modified to suit the needs of the Indian children, eliminating parts which are not essential, and thus providing additional time for industrial training. The course of instruction and training is, in an elementary way, very comprehensive. In addition to the usual' eight grades of academic work, it offers to the girls both theoretical and practical domestic training of every kind pertaining to home making and keeping; and to the boys not only industrial training as related to agriculture and allied subjects, but defi- nite trade courses as well. To take the entire academic course usually requires the average Indian boy or girl about 12 years, or about three years for each two grades. That it takes 12 years instead of 8, the time in which the average child in the public schools does the work, is due to several reasons. The English language must be learned, and because the Indian child's home and environment is so different from the new life into which he is introduced, an almost entirely new vocabulary must be acquired. For these reasons his comparative progress during the first three or four years is quite slow. If the foundation work is properly done, the progress thereafter IS much more rapid; however, by the time the child has completed the third or fourth grade he takes up regular industrial-training work and devotes one-half of each day to it. Therefore the number of years required to complete a grammar-school course, including the industrial training, is almost double the number required in the public schools. During the first years in school pupils are taught basketry, mat weaving, sewing, and the performance of minor duties in connection with the care of the household. The preparation of a noonday luncheon furnishes an opportunity for the training of Indian girls in the preparation and serving of simple meals. The boys are taught gardening, the use of tools in connection with repair work, and the care of stock. In the reservation boarding schools the girls are taught how to sew, launder, bake, and perform household duties, and the boys are given training in regular shopwork^ the cultivation of the farm, dairying and stock raising, a farm being connected with each reservation boarding school. In the nonreservation schools the girls are instructed in domestic science, and as an aid to this instruction there are frequently provided domestic science cottages, or rooms set' apart, properly furnished, wherein a definite course in the household arts may be taken. At some schools where a separate cottage is provided, three or four girls are given an opportunity to furnish a cottage, arrange its equipment, purchase some provisions for use therein, prepare and serve meals, launder the linen neces- sarily used in the cottage, and attend to all the duties that must be performed in connection with maintaining such a home. In other schools an outing system is maintained, which affords an opportunity for girls to receive training in typical American homes away from the school. In the out- ing system an Indian girl is taken into a home, not so much as a servant, but as a mem- ber of the family, and performs just such duties as would a daughter of the family. She helps preserve foods, prepares them for the table, eats with the family, assists in all household duties, and very frequently attends public schools during a portion of the year. There has been found no other better training than can be received by a girl in an outing system of this character, where the patrons are interested in the moral welfare of the pupil. This latter condition is always obtained, for under the close supervision of the outing matrons no girl is placed in a home until it has been found to De entirely satisfactory from the standpoint of the girl's welfare. Boys also trained in the outing system take the place of the farmer's boy, performing the same duties as he would and under the same personal direction that a farmer would give his own son. If an Indian boy has an allotment of land, he is advised ordinarily not to take a regu- lar trade course, but to take such training in carpentry, simple blacksmithing, etc., as 124 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILJ^. would be of value to a farmer, for it is expected that he will return to hie allotment. However, in the nonreservation schools boys are given an opportunity to perfect them- selves in some trade, and it is gratifying to note that many of them on leaving school, where they have no farms of their own to which they can return, are taking positiona in commercial houses, factories, machine shops, and in the various trades. The larger schools are equipped to give instruction in carpentry and woodworking, blacksmithing and forging, electric and steam engineering, brick and stone masonry, plumbing, tailoring, painting, printing, baking, harness and shoemaking, wagon making, cement work, gardening, and dairying. There is at all schools a great amount of routine work necessary to pre perly main- tain the school; however, superintendents are directed in so far as it is practicable not to keep pupils long at duties which have no educational or disciplinary value. The office has heretofore maintained a commercial course at two of the schools, Haskell and Carlisle, and Indians have shown considerable aptitude for preparing themselves for clerical positions, as is shown by the large proportion of Indians holding^ clerical positions in the Indian Service. However, there has been difficulty in getting ,pupils up to a standard of efficiency in the use of English which will enable them to best profit by a commercial course, as a ready command of the English language and quite an extensive general knowledge of various subjects must be acquired before tbey can be expected to achieve marked success in clerical positions. It is hopedto bring a much larger number of Indian boys and girls to a place where a commercial course will qualify them for more of the clerical positions in the Indian Service. In round numbers 5,700 persons are employed m the field service, kbout 30 per cent of whom are Indians. A little less than one-half of the total force is directly connected with school work. Outdoor life is essential to the health of pupils. Playgrounds are available at all schools, "and where homemade apparatus has not been provided the office has author- ized the purchase of ample equipment for both boys and girls. Baseball, basket ball, and other forms of athletics are enjoyed at all the larger schools. The boys are organ- ized also into military companies, and in order to effect a uniform system of drilling a pamphlet has been published for the use of employees reproducing the setting-up exercise portion of the manual for Infantry drills now used by the United States Army. The total value of property belonging to Government Indian schools exceeds $13,- 000,000, and the annual expenditure for school purposes exceeds $4,500,000. In addition to the 8,000 pupils enrolled in Indian day schools, there are over 22,000 Indian children who are housed, clothed, and fed during the entire year. This feature of the educational work must be kept in mind in making comparisons in cost with public-school education. The average city of 150,000 or 175,000 population has ap- proximately this number — 22,000 — piipils in regular attendance at the day sessions. A comprehension of what the Indian Office must do to care for this number of pupils and the expense connected therewith may be had if one recalls that the Indian Office carries on regularly all the activities that are ordinarily put forth in such a city for the instruction, recreation, clothing, housing, and feeding of this number of pupils. There is attached a statement showing the location, cost of maintenance, average attendance, and cost per capita of the nonreservation schools maintained by the Indian Office. Respectfully, E. B. Meritt, Assistant Commissioner. INDIAN SCHOOL, MOUNT PLEASANT, MICH. The Chairman. We will take up the item on page 23, line 9, under ^'Michigan/' as follows: Sec. 7. For support and education of three hundred and twenty-five Indian pupils at the Indian school. Mount Pleasant, Michigan, including pay of superintendent, $56,275; for general repaii-s and improvements, $5,000; in all, $61,275. That item is discussed on page 403 of the House hearings. Senator Townsend. That is an appropriation for the Mount Pleasant School. That is the Indian school iu Mchigan. Last year I tried to get an appropriation for this manual training school — or the gymnasium as some of them call it^and it was not allowed. That is, I did not push it very hard, because at the time I only had the statement of the superintendent up there, and I did not have INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 125 the facts sufficient to warrant my asking a vote upon it. But I have investigated the matter and am satisfied they ought to have that additional building at Mount Pleasant. There are 1,400 Indian children there who are entitled to the benefits of that school. They have about 300 or 400, I believe, who are actually in attendance, enrolled there. That is a most excellent school. They have excel- lent white schools there, where they have so many better advantages,, and yet it is a fact that the majority of the Indian boys and girls in that Indian school are entirely the peers of those in the white schools^ * and yet they do not have these additional advantages which make it attractive, especially to an Indian, who is athletic and inclined in that direction to a great extent. He has no such training there. We have the long winters, and the students are confined to their houses and the schoolrooms, and therefore I think this building ought to be given them. The department has estimated for it, but the House cut it down even below what the appropriation was last year^ for some reason or other. The estimate was $91,450. The Chairman. The amount appropriated last year was $71,275. Senator Townsend. Yes. The Chairman. You want $30,000 added to this item? Senator Townsend. I should like the $31,000 they have asked for,, but I wanted anyway the $25,000 they estimated for that buUding. I should like to know what the commissioner has to say about that. Mr. Meritt. We should like very much to have this building which the Senator has spoken about. It is very much needed at this schooL This is a large nonreservation school located near Indian children sufficient to more than fill the school. It is in the northern climate,, and these children have no place in which they can take exercise or a sufficient building for that purpose. (The amendment was agreed to.) The Chairman. The question recurs on the adoption of the para- graph, which as amended reads as follows : For support and education of three hundred and twenty-five Indian pupils at the Indian school, Mount Pleasant, Michigan, including pay of superintendent, $60,450; for general repairs and improvements, $6,000; for gymnasium and manual training buildings and equipment, $25,000; in all, $91,450. (The paragraph as amended was agreed to.) HASKELL institute, KANSAS. Senator Thompson. In connection with that last item I should like to mention the gymnasium for Haskell Institute. That was presented here the other day by Congressman Taggart. It is dis- cussed on page 397 of the House heariags. They are only asking $40,000 for that gymnasium. This will not make the amount larger than the estimate of the department. Senator Townsend. If the committee will pardon me for injecting a personal experience in these matters, I thiak that the commission which went through the West were very greatly impressed with this class of work that was being done in connection with the schools. One of the difficulties in getting the children to school is that they are not quite inclined to the grind of the book work. But if there is something there that creates an interest for them to come and stay these other things can be worked along very readily. There was not 126 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. a teacher or a pei-son connected with the schools but what impressed that upon us very strongly. I do not want any extravagant appro- priations, and if these are not needed or are more than are needed I want to cut them out, but I think they are part of the attraction that is necessary to bring and hold these boys and girls in school. Senator Thompson. We have nothing there but a basement; and only about 40 can get in there at a time out of 700. The Chairman. You are asking for an appropriation of how much? • Senator Thompson. $40,000. I introduced an amendment to that effect. Mr. Meritt. In our estimates we ask for $30,000 for a gymnasium building and equipment at the Haskell Institute. The House omitted^ this item from the bill passed by the House. We also asked for gen- eral repairs and improvements, $13,500, and the House allowed us $11,000. We feel that we can construct a suitable gymnasium build- ing and equip it properly to meet sufficiently the needs of that school for $30,000, but we do need that additional $2,500 for general repairs and improvements of the other buildings. We have a large number of buildings at this school. It is one of the largest nonre&ervation schools in the Indian Service. The school is domg good work, but they are in serious need of a gymnasium. We have Mr. Pealrs here, who lives at Lawrence, and he was superintendent of that school for a number of years, and he can tell you of the urgent need for this gymnasium. We feel; however, it should not be over our estimate of $30,000. Senator Lane. Where will the money come from ? ]\fr. Meritt. It will be a gratuity appropriation by the Government. The Chairman. Is there any objection to the item of $30,000 for the gymnasium at Haskell, and raising the other item to $2,500 ? Senator Lane. There will be but one objection, and that is this, that there are a large number of Indians all over the country on allotted lands, and now we are about to put some of them on stump lands, who have not tools, plows, harrows, or horses wherewith to make a liv- ing, and that is a condition that is bad for them. And before entering into this other work, which I realize the advantage and necessity of, it does seem to me we should do the other first. It is very hard to get something for these people that they- actually need, and here we are putting on style and filigree, and voting money for that so cheer- fully, and it is so hard to dig the other out. Senator Townsend. As far as I am concerned I am willing to vote for any appropriation where they show it is actually needed, but I am thinking about the future. I believe this problem must be worked out, and we must lay the foundation now, I believe, in the schools. I know there are some things that ought to be different, and they are being made different. I think when the commission gets through with its report we wiU have some very valuable suggestions to make in reference to school work. This is one of the modern things in school life, and the Indians are entitled to it just as much as the white children, and I think it means better Indians. The Chairman. This is not a charge upon the Indian in any sense ? Senator Townsend. No; it is a gratuity appropriation of the Government. Senator Lane. I wish to say that in an investigation at Carlise we found that the Carlise University, which is a very creditable one — I INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 127 presume the highest type of any of the Indian schools — is pretty nearly run for athletic purposes. A large proportion of the work and expenditure there goes for that purpose. They have a large athletic fund there, and the rest of the institution seems to be pinched down and kept under in order to keep up with that work of the institution. We found that they make money out of this, but the money is not turned back into the school to advance it and build it, but they do maintain a charity fund, if you please, and there is a traveling expense fund, and go trotting around the country in palace cars — the officials do — and it does not always work out as nicely as it should for the general good of the school. The Chairman. The amendment is on. page 22, line 23, to insert after the figures "$127,750',' the words ''for gymnasium and manual training buildingJ^S 0,000." Mr. Meritt. We should hke to have it stated in these words : ''For gymnasium building and equipment, $30,000." That will enable us to equip the building. Senator Thompson. All right. (The amendment was agreed to.) The paragraph as amended was agreed to. INDIAN SCHOOL, FLANDREAU, S. DAK. Senator Clapp. Mr. Chairman, while we are on the business of these schools I want to add in the South Dakota item, page 49, line 24, the words 'Tor repairing and enlarging barns, $3,000." That is an old barn built in 1901 at the Flandreau School, and I do not think it is large enough. The Chairman. What kind of a barn is it ? Senator Clapp. It is a barn which only accommodates a small num- ber of cattle and they want to raise their dairy herd up. Congressman Burke called my attention to the matter, and asked me to make a request for it. The Chairman. Mr. Commissioner, what have you to say about that? Mr. Meritt. We should like to see that amendment incorporated in the bill. The Chairman. Did you estimate for that ? Mr. Meritt. We did not estimate for it, but the appropriation is needed. Senator Lane. In connection with the remarks I was making a little while ago about expenditures of Indians' money, I wish to say that it came to our attention on the commission the other day that there were some of the Indian families living on flour and water. The Chairman. Where was that — on one of the western reserva- tions 1 Senator Lane. Yes; living on flour and water. Senator Clapp. I move that the amendment be adopted, increasing the total from $67,500 to $70,500. The amendment was agreed to. Mr. Meritt. While we are on that item, Mr. Chairman, we would like to have our estimates for general repairs and improvements adopted. We ask for $8,000, and the House cut it to $6,000. We 128 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. should like very mu'^h to have the $8,000 for the improvement and repair of buildi^^gs there. Senator Thompson. What is the difficulty? Mr. Meritt. These Indian school buildings are getting old, and they receive rather hard use, and it takes considerable money to keep them in proper repairs. There are 28 buildings in connection with this school, and we need at least that amount to keep these buildings in reasonable repair. Mr. Clapp. I move that the amount of $8,000 be allowed. (The amendment was agreed to. The paragraph as amended was agreed to.) heirs of deceased INDIAN ALLOTTEES. Senator Townsend. I wish to call attention to an item on page 11 of the printed comparison. The last proviso in that paragraph reads : Provided farther , That the provisions of this act shall not apply to the Osage Indians nor to the Five Civilized Tribes of Indians in Oklahoma. It is clear that they did not mean all the provisions of this act, but that the provisions of this paragraph shall apply. The Chairman. I have a letter on that subject from some Hepre- sentative. The clerk of the committee has a notation that that should be done, so that, in the absence of objection, page 11, line 7, the word '^act" will be stricken out and the word ^' paragraph'^ inserted in lieu thereof. Senator Townsend. I move that the committee adjourn. (Thereupon, at 4.20 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until Monday, March 23, 1914, at 2 o'clock p. m.) MONDAY, MARCH 2 3, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Ashurst (chairman), Lane, Robinson, Thompson, La Follette, Page, Gronna, and Townsend; also Hon. E. B. Meritt, Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs. improvement and repair of schools and agency buildings. The Chairman. The first item we will consider this morning is on page 7 of the comparison, item 6, as follows: For construction, lease, purchase, repairs, and improvements of schools and agency buildings, and for sewerage, water supply and lighting plants, $400,000: Provided, That the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to allow employees in the Indian Service, who are furnished quarters, necessary heat and light for such quarters without charge, such heat and light to be paid for out of the fund chargeable with the cost of heating and lighting other buildings at the same place: Provided further , That the amount so expended for agency purposes shall not be included in the maximum amounts for compensation of employees prescribed by section one, act of August twenty-fourth, nineteen hundred and twelve: Provided further, That not to exceed $10,000 of this amount may be used for providing necessary drainage and equipment for fruit raising, and for the construction of a new barn and for repairs at the Oneida boarding school at Oneida, Wisconsin. Senator Page. House bill, $400,000; estimated, $480,000; appro- priated last year, $400,000. Query: Shall we increase the House allowance by $80,000 ? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 129 Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, this is a general item for constiuc- tion and repair of school and agenc;^ jDuildinss. We requested last year $600,000, I believe, for this work, and Congress allowed us $400,000. We reduced our estimate this year to $480,000, and we hope that Congress will allow this amount. Our superintendents have submitted estimates for this work amounting to over a million dollars. We realize, of course, that Congress win not give us that appropriation, and we have pared it down to the limit. We have agency buildings and land amounting to more than $5,000,000, and this is considered a reasonable amount for keeping those buildings in repair, and the construction of such additional agency buildings as may be needed throughout the Indian Service. Senator Page. None of it goes for teaching and none for board. It is all for repair of buildings ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; repairs and improvements of buildings, and such new buildings as may be necessary at the agencies. Senator Page. What are the buildings worth? Mr. Meritt. The agency buildings are estimated to be worth in the neighborhood (f $4,000,000. Senator KoBiNSON. And this was retained in the House? Mr. Meritt. The House gave us $400,000, and we estimated for $480,000. Senator Lane. Can you do any work with the Indians themselves — the pupils ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; we will utihze the services of the Indians wherever possible, and also the services of the pupils. We are doing that constantly in our service. Senator Lane. What fund does this come out of, the general fund ? Mr. Meritt. It is a gratuity appropriation. Our buildings receive very hard wear at the various agency schools and it costs considerable money to keep them in repair. Senator Page. Can you tell without much difEculty how much the gratuity appropriations are in the entire bill? Mr. Meritt. The gratuity appropriations will amount to about $7,000,000. . ' Senator Lane. It is a general appropriation; you can use it any- where you want to ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; it is a general appropriation. Senator Lane. How do you arrive at the estimate? Does each school make its own; reqiuest ? Mr. Meritt. We send out about the 1st of July of each year estimate blanks requiring the superintendents to submit estimates of their needs for the next fiscal year. Senator Lane. How do you check on that? Mr. Meritt. When these estimates are returned to the office, they are gone over very carefuUy, and the Indian bill is made up on those estimates. The superintendents, as 1 have stated, estimated for this year an appropriation of more than a million dollars for this item. We cut hat estimate to $480,000. -Senator Lane. Why? Mr. Meritt. Because we knew it would be useless to ask Congress for such a large appropriation, and we thought we could by close economy, get along with the amount that we have requested. But 39746— PT 1—14 9 130 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. we do not belieA^e that we can, in view of the large number of buildings at the various agencies, keep them in proper repair and construct such necessary new buildings as ma^ be absolutely necessary, with $400,000. We would like to have our estimate. Senator Thompson. You had nearly $100,000 left last year. Mr. Meritt. That was the amount on hand the first of July. Cf course, there will be bills coming in which will reduce that appropria- tion very materially. This appropriation will be practically exhausted when all the outstanding accounts are in. Senator Page. You see under the analysis they estimated $386,000 instead of $480,000. Senator Gronna. This would go to the agency schools, would it not, ^ as part of the agency schools. It would not apply to schools off the agency. Mr. Meritt. No, sir; it would not apply to nonreservation schools. l-enpttor Lane. How much are you asking for those schools like Carlisle, etc. ? Mr. Meritt. We ask for a specific amount for each nonreservation school. Senator Gronna. The reason I asked was this: In North Dakota we need some money for this very purpose, for the Wahpeton School. I was not quite sure that this would apply to that school. Mr. Meritt. No, sir; it will not. Senator Page. Senator Gronna, I think last year you asked for several quite good-sized appropriations for concrete walks, etc. Did they tkrow them out in conference ? Senator Gronna. Yes; they threw them out last year. Senator Page. You still think you ought to have it ? Senator Gronna. Senator McCumber introduced an amendment that he hopes the committee will be gracious enough to insert in the bill. It is absolutely necessary. Mr. Meritt. We are not able, with $400,000, to keep the agency school buildings in proper repair, and also to construct such necessary new buildings as may be deemed absolutely necessary. Senator Lane. Will this mostly go to school buildings or repairs on the agency buildings ? Mr. Meritt. Both. Senator Page. I will read it to you. The different schools ask for $156,000 for general repairs, and $1,005,421 for construction. It is seven times as much for construction as repairs and, of course, he had to cut down the estimate for construction in order to get it down to $480,000. Senator Lane. What are you reading from ? Senator Page. From page 145 of the hearings. Mr. Meritt. We have cut the estimates of the superintendents more than 60 per cent. Senator Gronna. What reasons did the House committee give for cutting down the $480,000 ? Is there any reason given for that? Mr. Meritt. They give no specific reason. They simply allowed the same sum as was allowed last year. In the estimates for last year there was an item for $600,000 for this work, but this year we wanted to keep our estimates dow^ to the limit, and we asked for, only $480,000. INDIAN APPBOPBIATION BILL. 131 Senator Gronna. To bring it before the committee, I move that we raise it to $480,000. The motion was agreed to. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, we would like to have inserted after the word '' buildings," in line 2, on page 7, the words, ''and sites/' That is necessary, because on some reservations where all the land has been allotted and all the surplus land disposed of, it is necessary for the department to use part of this appropriation to purchase the sites for different day schools. Senator Lane. For agencies on reservations? ' Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; the lands on some of the reservations have been allotted and the surplus land disposed of, and it is necessary to have the sites on which to locate day schools. We very frequently buy those sites from the Indian allottees. Senator Robinson. I move the amendment be agreed to. Senator Lane. One moment. It seems to be a case where this land already belongs to the Indians. We are buying it back again. Are you buying from the whites at all ? Mr. Meritt. We buy it from Indians, of course, wherever possible. We have used this appropriation right along for that purpose, and we are constantly in fear that the comptroller may hold up some item because these words are not in there. It is for the purpose of making it perfectly clear that this appropriation is asked to be made available for that specific purpose. The Chairman. The vSenator from Ai'kansas moves that the amend- ment be agreed to, inserting the words ''and sites," after the word "buildings," on page 7, Une 2. (The amendment was agreed to.) » collection and transportation of pupils. The Chairman. The next item is No. 7, on page 7 of the com- parison, Indian school transportation, $82,000; page 153 of the hear- ings, asfoUows: For collection and trans j)ortation of pupils to and from Indian and public schools, and for placing school pupils, with the consent of their parents, under the care and control of white families qualified to give them moral, industrial, and educational training, $72,000: Provided, That not' to exceed $5,000 of this amount may be used in the trai^portation and placing of Indian youths in positions where a remunerative employment may be found for them in industrial pursuits. The provisions of this section shall also apply to native pupils of school age under twenty-one years of age brought from Alaska. Mr. Meritt. This is the same amount that we were allowed last year. The House cut the item to $72,000, not giving us as much as was appropriated last year. We would like to have our estimate. We are not asking for an increase in this estimate. Senator Townsend. Did you have any of last year's appropriation left over ? Mr. Meritt. There is a statement here showing that there was $11,000 unexpended balance when this statement was made up. but there may be additional accounts coming in. Senator Townsend. Do you imagine there are other accounts still outstanding? Mr. Meritt. Probably not to that full amount. Senator Lane. When was this estimate made up ? 132 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. ThvS was made up the 1st of October. Senator Lane. Last year we requested that these estimates be submitted to the committee two or three months in advance of the time the bill came here. The bill comes and we have estimates* of appropriations and a lot of work here which we have not an under- standing of, and last year we asked that the estimates be submitted not later than October or November or December — somewhere about that time — to the members of the committee, so we could check up against them, sort of get posted on them. You had them in October, did you not, all finished up ? Mr. Meritt. We are required oy law to submit estimates to the Treasury Department by the 15th of October. These estimates were * grinted in the regular Book of Estimates, which was available to [embers of Congress the 1st of November. Senator Lane. Did you get one, Senator Robinson? Senator Robinson. I did not get one. Senator Lane. Did you have an estimate from the department, Senator Townsend ? Senator Townsend. I never saw it. I do not know whether it was received or not. Senator Lane. Senator Page, did you get one? Senator Page. No, sir. Senator Lane. Did you. Senator Ashurst, see these estimates which were made up last October for these expenditures ? The CfiAiRMAN. All I have seen is the large Book of Estimates. Mr. Meritt. This is the Book of Estimates [indicating], and they are printed there. Senator Robinson. They are comprised within that. Senator Lane. I have never seen that book. The Chairman. There is a copy of that book in the office file, open to the inspection of any Senator. Senator Townsend. What I wanted to ask was this: You had last year $82,000 and had left over $11,296, but you say in the note that it possibly is not the final balance. Has anything happened during the last year that would require more money for transportation pur- poses than was required last year ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; and our estimates this year are the same as last year and the same amount as allowed last year. Probably there may be some accounts that have come in since this statement was made up, but they certainly would not amoimt to $11,000, and we are willing, in order to cut the item as much as possible, to reduce our estimate $5,000. Senator Townsend. Would it not be better, in view of the great increases we are making all through this bill, to leave that House item as it stands? That would give you $1,296.10 with which to meet any accounts that are not in, and still have the same amount as you had last year. Mr. Meritt. We will try to get along with that amount. Senator Townsend. I think it would be better to leave that at $72,000. The Chairman. The Senator from Michigan moves that the item be approved at $72,000. (The motion was agreed to.) Il^DIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. > 133 INDIAN SCHOOL AT FORT MOJAVE, ARIZ. The Chairman, The next item is No. 25, on page 15 of the printed comparison, discussed on page 287 of the House hearings, as follows: For support and education of two hundred Indian pupils at the Indian school at Fort Mojave, and for pay of superintendent, $35,100; for general repairs and improve- ments, $3,800; in all, $38,900. Senator Robinson. What do you know about that, Mr. Chairman? Suppose we have you testify a little ? Senator Ashurst. My knowledge would be of no value. I really know nothing about it. Senator Page. What do you know generally of that school? Is it a good school ? The Chairman. I will have to ask the honorable assistant commis- sioner to give you a statement with regard to that, because that happens to be one school which I have not visited in Arizona. Mr. Meritt. It is one of the very small nonreservation schools in the Southwest. We have an average attendance at this school of 192 pupils. We are asking for the same appropriation that was allowed last ye-ov, and the House allowed that appropriation. We are not asking for an increase over the amount allowed by the House. .^ Senator Robinson. I move that it be agreed to. The paragraph was agreed to. The Chairman. There are 844 Indians from aU the tribes there; I think that is right, is it not, Mr. Commissioner ? Mr. Meritt, That is approximately correct; yes, sir. The Chairman. I do not mean that there are that many in the school, because I do not know anything about it. SUPPORT and education OF INDIAN PUPILS AT PHOENIX, ARIZ. The Chairman. The next item is No. 26, being an appropriation for the Indian school at Phoenix, Ariz., page 15 of the bill, discussed on page 288 of the hearings, as follows: For support and education of seven hundred Indian pupils at the Indian school at Phoenix, Arizona, and for pay of superintendent, $119,400; for general repairs and improvements, $7,500; for connecting the sewer system of the Phoenix Indian School and the East Farm Tubercular Sanitarium with the sewer system of the city of Phoe- nix, $32,000; in all, $158,900. Senator Robinson. That was increased, was it not ? Mr. Meritt. The House increased our estimate from $146,400 to $158,900. Senator Lane. Why did they do that? Mr. Meritt. The reason for that is this: The superintendent esti- mated for a sewer system at $12,000. We were required by law to sul^mit a report to Congress by engineers, and the engineers' report came in after the estimate was made up. We made up our estimate on the basis of the report of the superintendent. The engineers, how- ever, say it will require $32,000 to install this sewer system at the Indian school and at the tubercular sanatorium, and the House al- lowed the amount estimated by the regular engineers. Senator Page. That is $12,500 additional? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Page. I move that we allow it. 134 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. The Chairman. The Senator from Vermont moves that the esti- mate, $158,900, be approved. (The motion was agreed to.) Senator Townsend. Do you remember, Senator Robinson, that we discovered when we were out there the need of that sewerage system ? Senator Robinson. Yes; I started to make a statement about it, but I do not think it necessary to go into the details. That improve- ment is unquestionably needed in the judgment of the joint commis- sion of Congress which visited that school last fall. Mr. Meritt. By the way, that tubercular sanatorium, which is being operated in connection with the school, appears to be doing very successful work. * / INDIAN SCHOOL AT TRUXTON CANYON, ARIZ. The Chairman. The next item is No. 27, on page 15 of the bill, as follows : For support and education of one hundred pupils at the Indian school at Truxton Canyon, Arizona, and for pay of superintendent, |18,200; for general repairs and im- provements, $3,000; in all, |21,200. That is discussed on page 294 of the hearings. Mr. Meritt. This is a small nonreservation school in Arizona. We asked the same amount as was appropriated last year and the House allowed us our estimate, $21,200. Senator Robinson. I move that it be agreed to. (The motion was agreed to.) SCHOOL FACILITIES FOR THE PAPAGO INDIANS, ARIZONA. The Chairman. Item No. 37 does not appear in the printed bill, but it is discussed in the hearings at page 331 . The item is as follows: To enable the Secretary of the Interior to provide school facilities for the children of the Papago Tribe of Indians in Arizona, the sum of $50,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, is hereby appropriated out of any funds in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated, this amount to be in addition to any other funds available for that purpose. Senator Page. This is supposed to be for schools in many little villages — 10 or 15 Papago villages? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Page. And you seek to erect those schools at an expense of $50,000 ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Thompson. What is the amount allowed by the House? Mr. Meritt. That is a new item. We put it in the Indian bill this year. It has not been estimated for heretofore. We find that there are a large number of Indian children among the Papago Indians in southern Arizona who are without school facilities and the department has no funds available to provide them with school facilities. Senator Robinson. Is there a treaty by which devolves upon the Government the obligation of maintaining school facilities for those Indians ? Mr. Meritt. There are no treaty provisions with the Papago In- dians. There are for the Navajo Indians. We are asking the spe- cific appropriation of $50,000 to enable the department to provide school facilities for the Papago Indians. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 135 Senator Robinson. Do you request in your estimates appropria- tions to cover all these cases where treaties specifically obligate the United States to provide schools for Indians ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Ro:^inson. Do you know whether or not the House ex- cluded any of these items, and if so, which ones ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; the House allowed us all our treaty items. There are estimated to be more than 1,200 Indian children among the Papago Indians. Senator Robinson. Are the schools already in existence, or is it contemplated that they will be established if this item is inserted? Mr. Meritt. We have a very few schools among the Papagos. Senator Page. On page 331 of the House hearings it is stated: These Indians are a very worthy class of peoj)le and ask no assistance from the Government except that school facilities be provided. This item of $50,000 should be included in the bill this year, in order that the Papago children may not longer be permitted to gro-w up in ignorance. I suppose there are buildings. Mr. Meritt. There is only one little deiy school among all these Indian children, more than 1,200 of them. There are 12 or 15 Papago ^villages whore day srhools should be maintaincJ. Senator Robinson. Have they tribal funds ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; these Indians are making their own living and are existi ig under circumstances that would tax the ingenuity of white people to make a living. Senator Lane. How do they make a living? Mr. Meritt. They make their living b}" raising some stock and by working wherever they can find employment. They leave the reser- vation and go up on the Pima Reservation and pick cotton in the fall, and do whatever they possibly can. The>- get barely sufficient to maintain an existence. Senator Lane. They are reservation Indians, are they ( Mr. Meritt. They have no particular reservation. They are living on the public domain. Senator Lane. I thought you said they left the reservation? Mr. Meritt. They left their present location. Senator Robinson. Do you know whether or not the Indians in that iocalit}- are permitted to attend the public s-hools ? Mr. Meritt. There are no public schools in the locality where these Indians five. Senator Robinson. No public schools accessible? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Robinson. So unless some provision is made by the Gov- ernment for their education, they wiU be deprived of it? / Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. Are there other cases in this bill where no tribal funds are available for mamtainmg educational facihties and where no treaty obhgation on the part of the Government exists to that end, and where the department has found it advisable or neces- sary to estabfish and maintain schools for the Indians ? Is this the only item of this kind, or are there other items ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; this is the only new item of this kind pro- posed in this bill. We have submitted a very carefully prepared 136 INDIAN APPROPRIATION Bllxli. justification in detail, giving information regardiiig this item, which IS found beginning on page 331 of the House hearings. Senator Lane. But Senator Robinson asked you if there were any other cases Uke this that should be provided for. Was that not your question ? Senator Robinson. Yes; I asked that, and he said there were no others, as I understood him. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; we have, among the Navajo Indians, between 5,000 and 6,000 Indians who are without school facihties. We began two years ago to comply with the treaty provision. The Govern- ment is under treaty obligations to educate the children of the Navajo Indians, and two years we made an estimate of $100,000 to * start in with that work. Senator Robinson. I was under the impression that there were some cases yet where the Government had not even begun to fulfill its treaty obUgations in this particular, and I was just going to suggest that that certainly ought to be done, and perhaps ought to be done before we attempt to place additional burdens which do not rest upon the Government by reason of the treaty. The item, as you present it, seems to be entirely meritorious from the general standpoint of the Indians. Senator Townsend. Where are you going to locate those schools ? Mr. Meritt. In their villages. Senator Townsend. Do those people own any land ? Mr. Meritt. They have no fee title to it, but we wiU give them fourth-section allotments and they wiU eventually get fee title. They will get trust patents. Senator Robinson. Will you have any title to the buildings after you erect them on somebody else's land ? Mr. Meritt. We will not erect any buildings on any land that the Government does not have title to. That is a uniform rule of the department. We will acquire title to land on which we erect buildings. Senator Townsend. Are the Indians liable to stay in that vicinity long enough to get the benefit of your school ? Mr. Meritt, These Indians are somewhat different from the Navajo Indians. Their homes are in these villages, and they go out on the reservation, on the pubhc domain, to care for their stock. Their children will remain around these villages. The villages are usually located around a water hole, or a well of some kind, where they can get water. Water is very scarce in that country. Senator Robinson. The adoption of this item is the beginning of a new policy in so far as these Indians are concerned, with reference to their education, and it implies, or involves a continuance of the same item in this particular from year to year? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. That is to say more appropriation of $50,000? Senator Page. Not under this item. It says that they ask nothing except to provide the buildings. Senator Robinson. I know, except that school facilities be pro- vided, but I do not understand that as being limited to school build- ings. I understand that school facilities means just what it says, and school buildings, if I understand the term properly, is only one fea- ture of school facilities. School facilities contemplate everything necessary to be furnished, and mclude teaching. INDIAN AJPPEOPIMATION BILL. 137 t Senator Page. That may be so, but this says: These Indians are- a very worthy class of people and ask no assistance from the Oovernment except that school facilities be provided. Senator Robinson. They ask no support; they ask nothing except that the Government establish and maintain schools for them. Is that true,' Mr. Commissioner ? Mr. Meritt. That is true. Senator Page. Why do you say they ask no assistance except that school facilities be provided? Senator Robinson. That is school facilities. I will ask you first, why do you narrow the meaning of the language used and make it something that it ordinarily does not mean ? Senator Page. It says, on page 331 : These Indians are a very worthy class of people and ask no assistance from the Gov- ernment, except that school facilities be provided. Now, to use your language, I would sav, except you build school- houses and furnish wood, and give us all the facilities — that is the attitude you take. Senator Robinson. By the use of the term, '^school facilities," I understand that term to include all those things you have men- tioned. Senator Page. Then why does he say: ^'They ask no assistance from the Government" ? . Mr. Meritt. We mean by that that they do not want any gratuity appropriations for support. Senator Page. What do you mean by '^support" ? Mr. Meritt. We furnish certain Indians clothing and food. These Indians are industrious and self-supporting, and they are willing, even in that barren country, to make their own living. ' Senator Page. You mean, then, that they ask no help except that they be furnished schools ? Senator_RoBiNSON. That is what he states. Senator Page. I did not understand it. I supposed they asked on help for schools except that we furnish the buildmgs. But I can see how I was wrong about that. Senat6r Townsend. I am in svmpathy with the idea. I think we ought to have Indian schools, but the matter that is not so clear in my mind is whether if you construct Indian schools there you mU have anybody to attend them. They are not living on their own land. What is to prevent their living away and having schools? Mr. Meritt. They live around wells, springs, and water holes. They have their villages around these places. Senator Townsend. Who owns thie water holes ? Mr. Meritt. They are on the public domain, but the Indians have been occup;ying that land and have a preference right to get title to those lancis, and we intend to see that their interests are protected. We have had an alio ting agent in that country surveying the land. A large portion of southern Arizona 'is unsurveyed. Senator Townsend. So it is not possible for somebody else — some white man to come along and take the water holes that belong to them ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. 138 ' INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. Senator Eobinson. Have you knowledge of how much it will cost to construct buildings that will be necessary ? I see by the statement that there are probably 12 to 15 of these villages where no schools are maintained. That would imply, I suppose, that there would be 12 or 15 buildings? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. And the rest of the fund would be used for providing their school facilities. Mr. Chairman, this is a very impor- tant item. I have the idea if there is anything objectianable to it it can be determined in conference, and I am now going to make the motion that this estimate be approved, with the full understanding of the fact that it commits the Government to the policy of main-* taining schools for these Indians, and that the obligation upon the Government will not terminate with the expenditure of this |50,000. Senator Page. Let me say^'ust a word. Ever since I have been a member of this committee, and I have been here for about five years, I have never as yet felt like cutting a single appropriation for schools. I believe that it is the one matter in which we should be generous and liberal with the Indians, and I have taken pains, while I have been on trips as one of a subcommittee, to examine the schools— such com- mittee has delegated me sometimes as a committee of one to look over the schools because of my interest in the matter — and I have never yet seen anything to lead me to believe that the expenditures - for education which this Government makes for Indians is not a good investment. Senator Robinson. In part, I desire to corroborate that statement. I really believe, considermg all the circumstances, that the schools are domg fairly satisfactory work. There are many localities where schools are bemg maintained where the Indians do not avail them- selves of the facilities in a satisfactory way. But that same condition applies where schools are maintained for whites in certain localities, and it is the same spirit that you express that prompts me to move that the item be included. Senator Page. Now, to pursue that a little further, I have voted here for appropriations, and have voted against appropriations, and I have inquired as to how they worked out, and I frequently found there was a waste, and never have I found waste, as far as I could discover, with regard to the schools. I think the schools have been the one thing that I consider of value in making our Indian appro- priations. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, I consider this one of the most worthy items in the Indian biU. These Indians have been living there under very adverse circumstances, and have never asked for a dollar from the Government. We have with us Mr. Peairs, supervisor of Indian schools, who has been in this country, and who has visited some of these villages. Senator KoBiNSON. Do you mean he is here in person? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. I would hke to ask him a few questions. Mr. Peairs, have you made an investigation of the conditions on that reser- vation, or in that community ? Mr. Peairs. Yes, sir; I have. Senator Robinson. Do you think the Indians would appreciate and avail themselves reasonably of these faciUties if they were pro- vided ? INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. 139 Ml. Peairs. I am very sure they would. Senator Robinson. Is there any widespread sentiment among the Indians that favors the maintenance of schools ? Mr. Peairs. There is a very general favorable sentiment. Senator Robinson. What is the condition of the Indians existing there now, with reference to education? I presume they are prac- tically all illiterate. Mr. Peairs. A few have attended schools at Phoenix and a few at the little day school, a few at the mission school, and also a few at the Presbyterian mission school near Tucson. They have taken advantage of these opportunities and have done splendid work in them. I have never seen a class of young Indian people anywhere who are as eager for education as those Pap ago young people. Senator Robinson. That is exactly the class we want to reach with these opportunities. Mr. Peairs. Further, I would like to say that the conditions in the Papago country are unusually favorable for educating at low expense, because those living in the villages can be reached by day schools and there will not have to be any boarding schools in that country. They can be maintained at day schools at very much less expense than at boarding schools. There are, as has been said, quite a large number of villages where there should be schools. Senator Robinson. Are those Indians self-supporting in spite of the adverse conditions under which they live ? Mr. Peairs. Yes, sir. It is simply marvelous how those Indians have lived in that barren country. They have dug wells as deep as 400 feet, through hxmdreds of feet of rock, with axes and picks to get water. Senator Robinson. Have you any idea if we educate them that the condition may be reversed ? Mr. Peairs. No, sir; I have not. Senator Robinson. The only thing that makes me doubt the wis- dom of my motion is the fact that in some localities where they are much more favorably situated they do not get along so weU with their school facilities. However, I renew my motion. Senator Gronna. I am in favor of the item. I believe in the policy of educating the Indians, but before I vote on the proposition I want more information as to the type of these lands. If it is unsur- veyed pubhc land, of course the only way we could hold title to it would be for the Government to refuse to open up this land for settlers to take it up. Of course pubhc lands may be entered before they are surveyed. You can take what is called squatters' rights. Settlers may squat on it and hold it until such time as it may be surveyed. Mr. Meritt. I might say that we have a record of the location of these villages, and we have arranged with the General Land Office not to permit the issuance of any homestead rights on lands now occupied by these Papago Indians. We will protect their rights. Senator Gronna. This land will have to bo withdrawn by some Executive order, or else simply saying that it can not be entered. Mr. Meritt. The President can withdraw it by Executive order. Senator Gronna. That is what I mean. Senator Robinson. What I mean is, will it be necessary to attach afny legislative provision to the item so as to guarantee the pre- 140 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. vention of the difficulties which might arise from some squatter or settler settling on a piece of land where one of these schools, is located, and taking the building and proving up his claim in spite of some disposition that the Indian Bureau might have to refuse to permit him to do so? Senator Gronna. That is the idea. Mr. Meritt. No legislation will be required. Senator Robinson. You can take care of that under the general land law ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. , Senator Townsend. Mr. Meritt, what I intended to ask in the first place was what is your authority with reference to that matter ? * Mr. Meritt. We have authority to recommend to the President the withdrawal of any pubUc land for the use of the Indians, and the President has authority to withdraw those lands. We have already withdrawn the lands in some of those villages. We have in course of preparation now an Executive order withdrawing other lands for the use of the Papago Indians, and the President has authority to withdraw public lands. That authority has been recognized by the Supreme Court in various decisions, and has also been recognized by Congress in the first section of the general allotment act of February 8, 1887. Senator Townsend. I have no doubt that he had authority to do that by Executive order, as Senator Gronna said, but I do not know whether he is going to do it. If you are going to put up a lot of buildings there Senator Robinson. He said, if I understood him, that they would not construct the buildings until the order had been made. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. . • S;^nator Lane. If it was 400 feet to water, no white man would dig for it. The Chairman. The question occurs on the motion of the Senator from Alabama, which I will ask him to restate. Senator Robinson. I moved that the sum of $50,000, estimated for by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, be embraced in this bill. It was not embraced in the biU by the House. Senator Page. For schools for the Papago Indians. Senator Robinson. Yes. Senator Page. I second the motion. The motion was agreed to. INDIAN pupils AT SHERMAN INSTITUTE, RIVERSIDE, CAL. The Chairman. The next item is No. 44, page 21 of the compari- son, page 361 of the hearings, as follows: For support and education of 625 Indian pupils at the Sherman Institute, River- side, Cahfornia, including pay of superintendent, $104,000; for general repairs and improvements, $10,000; in all, $114,000. Senator Robinson. The joint committee to investigate Indian affairs visited this school. It is at Riverside, Cal. From the inves- tigation we made, the school is in quite a satisfactory condition. It is of a high standard of efficiency, and there is a strong school spirit prevailing among the pupils there. I do not know anything aoout the details of this estimate, but there is nothing that I have die- INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 141 covered in the management or operation of that school that does not make it worthy in other respects. Senator Page. The matter under debate is the question of $lM),000 for a heating plant. The Commissioner asked for $20,000 for that heating plant, and the House members took the view that at River- side thev did not need anything to heat with; that it was a climate that did not require that, and therefore that the $20,000 was not necessary. Senator Robinson. That matter was discussed while we wiT.^ on our trip. Senator Townsend. Yes, As far as I am concerned, I have never been deeply impressed with the importance of that additional heating plant. Of course we were there in very warm days, but I know that from the questions we asked I was induced to believe that they never had much weather there that would require any expensive heating plant. Anything that would be needed in the way of additional equipment I womd be very heartily in favor of, because I agree with S,enator Robinson that this is a school that has been doing great work. There are scholars there from all over the country. Senator Page. Can anyone give us the temperature in that locality ? Of course we would have to provide for temperature in colder months. Senator Robinson. It is a semitropical country. The avenues of the town are lined with magnificent stately palms, and it is a country where flowers bloom perpetually. It does not occur to me that there is a very long period there when the heating plant could be ui*ed. Mr. Meritt. The superintendent estimated for a central heating plant, and he thought it would reduce the cost of keeping the build- mgs warm when it is necessary to heat the buildings. The cliniate is considered one of the finest in the United States. The office will not insist upon this estimate, but wiU withdraw the estimate for a central heating plant; but we would Hke to have the number of pupils appro- priated for increased from 625 to 650. Senator Page. That would make $20,000 difference in the appro- priation, would it not ? T^r l^FRiTT jl es sir Senator Page. You have reduced this from $149,400 to $129,400 Mr. Meritt. We will eliminate the central heating plant, $20,000. Senator Robinson. There is frost there once a season, or maybe twice a season. Senator Lane. Yes; sometimes it is frosty there, so much so that about a year, ago it killed all the oranges. It is that kind of climate where the people get a Httle bit relaxed from a warm equable tem- perature and when they do get cold weather they feel it that much worse. Senator Townsend. They have facilities for heating. The only thing they want now is to build a central heating plant and do away with the stoves and everything else— to heat the agent's house and everything. Senator Robinson. I think you could get along very well without tliat. I think the appropriation that Mr. Meritt asks for for addi- tional pupils ought to be agreed to because that is a very popular place in the southwest. Indians from Arizona and New Mexico avail themselves of it and they are very proud of it, and thoy really require it a-U, perhaps. ^ 142 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Page. To bring the matter to a close, I move that we ap- propriate the sum of $129,400. The Chairman. And, following the suggestion of the Honorable Assistant Commissioner, lines 3 and 4 will read: "650'^ instead of "625." . . , Mr. Meritt. And that will also change the appropriation tor re- pairs and improvements from $10,000 to $20,000. That amount will be necessary in order to care for the additional pupils. The item will then read : For support and education of six hundred and fifty Indian pupils at the Sherman Institute, Riverside, California, including pay of superintendent, $109,400; for general repairs and improvements, $20,000; in all, $129,400. ^ Senator Page. You have changed that $104,000 to something else. How do you change that ? Mr. Meritt. Change that to $109,400. Senator Page. And the general repairs and improvements from $10,000 to $20,000? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Let us get that right. Senator Page. The change is on Hue 5 from $104,000 to $109,400. Senator Townsend. How much do you want to put in for that? Mr. Meritt. At the rate of $167 per capita, that would increase the amount to $109,400, on hne 5. The Chairman. Now on line 6 the change is what ? Senator Page. From $10,000 to $20,000, and on line 7,$129,400. The Chairman. The question is on the adoption of the amendment so as to make the paragraph on page 21 read as follows: For support and education of six hundred and fifty Indian pupils at the Sherman Institute, Riverside, California, including pay of superintendent, $109,400; for general repairs and improvements, $20,000; in all, $129,400. (The amendment was agreed to.) FORT BIDWELL INDIAN SCHOOL, CAL. The Chairman. The next item is No. 46, page 21 of the printed comparison; page 167 of the hearings, as follows: For support and education of one hundred Indian pupils at the Fort Bidwell Indian School, California, including pay of superintendent, $16,400; for repairs and improve- ments, $3,600; in all, $20,000. Senator Page. That is an increase of $10,000. Mr. Meritt. We would like to have provided for that school 125 pupils instead of 100 pupils, and to have the total amount increased from $20,000 to $30,000. Senator Page. That would be more than proportionate. It would be $25,000 if you simply added in proportion. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; but they have failed to provide adequate funds for repairs and improvements at that school. Senator Lane. They are not reservation schools; they are outside the reservation ? Mr. Meritt. They are nonreservation schools. This school is near the Indians of northern California. Senator Lane. I notice that there are an average of about eight pupils to each employee. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 143 Mr. Meritt. I consider that too many employees. Senator Lane. And so it runs all the way through here, it seems to me, and still the other day I thought I understood you to say that included reservation employees. I brought it up once before. Mi\ Meritt. You were speaking in connection with Wliite Earth. Senator Lane. And several more of them. Mr. Meritt. At this school the number of employees would apply to the pupils at this school. Senator Lane. Yes. Does that run all through everywhere, about that average ? Mr. Meritt. The average should be 1 employee to about 10 or 12 pupils at these nonreservation schools. Senator Lane. Well, should it? Mr. ]\Ieritt. That is about the proper basis, I think. Senator Lane. Here on the other one, the Sherman Institute, it is about 1 to 9. }h\ ;Meritt. At this school we have Indian employees, for example, who receive $300 a year, and they should not be considered full employees. Senator Page. How can you tell, Senator Lane, about how many employees you want, until you know the size of the farm ? Lots of these schools have farms where they raise their own food largely, and I imagine that may be the case at the Riverside School. Senator Lane. I teU you how I judge. Take the institutions which provide for the care of those who are absolutely incompetent to take care of themselves, such as the insane or the idiotic, and the proportion of employees is not so great as it is here in schools where they ought to run less, requiring more in proportion, or fully as many as they have for the class of people, many of whom have to be fed with a spoon or a tube. That is what attracted my attention. Senator Page. Still they do not have to be taught. Senator Lane. Yes; they do teach them. In all of the industrial departments, the same as in the Indian schools. Senator To wnsend. A large farm? Senator Lane. Yes. Senator Page. These employees cover your farm, do they? Senator Lane. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Will you repeat the amendment as you would hke to have it? Mr. Meritt. On Ime 14, after the word, '^California," insert the words ''and for repairs and improvements, $30,000." We will be satisfied if the Senate committee will give us $25,000. We will try to cut down the expenses of this school. Senator Page. You cut out the words, "including pay of superin- tendent." Why do you do that? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; I did not intend to do that. Senator Page. You say, "after the word 'California'," insert something. Mr. Meritt. "And for repairs and improvements, including pay of superintendent." It will then read: For support and education of one hundred and twenty-five Indian pupils, at Fort Bidwell Indian School, California, and for repairs and improvements, 130,000. We have not mentioned specifically the pay of the superintendent, because that ordinarily would be included. But we have no objection 144 INDIAN APPBOPBIATION BILL. to that item going in inasmuch as the language is used in connection with other nonreservation schools. Senator Eobinson. I move to make it $25,000 in Ueu of $30,000. You will have to change the other figures. Senator Page. For repairs and improvements, $8,600, instead of $3,600. That will make that $25,000. Mr. Meritt. If you are going to reduce it to $25,000, we would prefer to have it in a lump sum. For support and education of one hundred and twenty-five Indian pupila at Fort Bidwell Indian School, including pay of superintendent, and for repairs and improve- ments, $25,000. Senator Lane. Including all. # Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. The question is on the adoption of the amendment suggested to approve the paragraph in the total sum of $25,000. Senator Townsend. Let us see how that will now read. The Chairman. The paragraph will then read: For support and education of one hundred and twenty-five Indian pupils at Fort Bidwell Indian School, California, including pay of superintendent, and for repairs, and improvements, $25,000. Mr. Meritt. That is satisfactory to us. The paragraph as amended was agreed to. Senator Lane. I understand there was no appropriation for that last year. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; there was. Senator Page. $20,000 was appropriated last year. Mr. Meritt. We are increasing the enrollment there by 25. We have facilities there for 25 additional pupils, and it is tp keep the school up to the maximum. GREENVILLE INDIAN SCHOOL, CALIFORNIA. The Chairman. The next item is No. 47, page 21 of the bill, as f oUows : For support and education of one hundred Indian pupils at the Greenville Indian ' School, California, including pay of superintendent, $18,400; for repairs and improve- ments, $6,600; in all, $25,000. Mr. Meritt. We will be satisfied with the amount allowed by the House, which is our estimate. Senator Page. $25,000? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In the absence of objection the paragraph will be agreed to. INDIAN SCHOOL, KICKAPOO RESERVATION, KANS. The Chairman. The next item is No. 59, page 23 of the printed biU, page 401 of the hearings, as follows: For support and education of eighty Indian pupils at the Indian school KiekapoQ Keservation, Kansas, including pay of superintendent, $14,860; for general repairs and improvements, $2,500; in all, $17,360. Mr. Meritt. We will be satisfied with the amount allowed by the House. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 145 Senator Robinson. I move it be agreed to at that amount. Senator Page. $17,360. The Chairman. Yes. (The motion was agreed to.) INDIAN SCHOOL, PIPESTONE, MINN. The Chairman. The next item is No. 63, page 23 of the bill, as follows : For support and education of two hundred and twenty-five pupils at the Indian school, Pipestone, Minnesota, including pay of superintendent, $39,175; for general repairs and improvements, $6,000; for lavatory, $3,500; in all, $48,675. Mr. Meritt. The House has reduced our estimate from S49,175 to $48,675. We will be satisfied with the amount allowed by the House. (In the absence of objection, the paragraph was agreed to.) INDIAN SCHOOL AT GENOA, NEBR. The Chairman. The next item is No. 86, page 31 of the bill, as follows : For support and education of three hundred and seventy-five Indian pupils at the Indian School at Genoa, Nebraska, including pay of superintendent, $60,000; for general repairs and improvements, $4,500; for new laundry building and equipment, $4,000; for repairs and addition to hospital, $4,000; dairy barn, $6,000; in all, $78,500. Senator Robinson. They cut you there ? Mr. Meritt. They cut us rather materially at this point. We are anxious to have our estimate at this school, Mr. Chairman. They are doing good work at Genoa and we would like to have our esti- mate. Senator Hitchcock has introduced two amendments to this item. The Chairman. Yes; he has proposed some amendments to this item, but I think we will have to consider it at this time. I have here calendar 129, an amendment intended to be proposed by Mr. Hitchcock: On page 24, lines 10 and 11, strike out the words, "three hundred and seventy-five," and insert in lieu thereof the words, "four hundred-'^ That has relation to the number of Indians; is that correct ? Mr. Meritt. We only estimate for 375, Mr. Chairman. Senator. Page. I move that we pass that over and invite the Senator from Nebraska to appear as a matter of courtesy to him. That is usually done. The Chairman. There is no objection so far as I am concerned. It will be agreed to in the absence of objection. INDIAN SCHOOL AT CARSON CITY, NEV. The Chairman. The next item is No. 89, page 32 of the printed bill, as foUows: For support and education of two hundred and Jfifty Indian pilpils at the Indian school at Carson City, Nevada, including pay of superintendent, $41,700; for general repairs and improvements, $6,000; in all, $47,700. 39746— PT 1—14 ^10 ^ , 146 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. The Chairman. I have received a letter from Senator Newlands, which I will read , as it is very short : March 10, 1914. Hon. Henry F. Ashurst, Chairman Committee on Indian Affairs^ United States Senate. My Dear Senator: I desire to ask the attention of your committee to the letter of Jesse B. Mortsolf, superintendent of the Carson Indian School, at Stewart, Nev., with reference to the reduction in the appropriation for that school in the Indian appropriation bill as it recently passed the House. I also inclose an explanatory blue print which was sent me with Mr. Mortsolf s letter. I sincerely hope the committee can see its way clear to increase this appropriation to the amount estimated by the Commissioner. The statements made in Mr. Mort- solf 's letter are substantiated by Mr. C. H. Asbury, superintendent of agencies, who < was here in Washington a few days ago, and who came to my office to talk over this and other matters relating to the interests of the Nevada Indians. These Indians are, as stated by Mr. Mortsolf's letter^ almost all very poor and needy, and the time is very near when the Government will probably be asked to do more for them than it has ever yet done. Meanwhile, it seems to me of the utmost importance to provide liberally for educating their children and helping them to become self-supporting. I will greatly appreciate anything you can do to aid in this. Very sincerely, yours, Francis G. Newlands. Senator Page. Mr. Chairman, suppose we get the view of Mr. Meritt with regard to that ? Senator Lane. There is one feature about that. There is one employee to every seven Indians at that school, and here you want more appropriation. Is that mostly for the benefit of the employees or the pupils ? Mr. Meritt. No; we can make better use of this school plant by increasing the number of pupils from 250 to 300. Senator Lane. Is there any way of purging the institution of sur- plus employees ? Mr. Meritt. I think we have too many employees there. Senator Lane. I should think so. Mr. Meritt. We are asking that the attendance at this school be increased from 250 to 300, which will increase the support item to $50,100. The Chairman. Not $56,000 ? ' Mr. Meritt. No, sir; and we are asking for general repairs and improvements, $10,000, instead of $6,000, which will make the total estimate $60,100. The Chairman. Will you read that section as you desire it amended ? Mr. Meritt. I suggest that the paragraph read as follows: For support and education of three hundred Indian pupils at the Indian school at Carson City, Nevada, and for pay of superintendent, $50,100; for general repairs and improvements, $10,000; in all, $60,100. The school buildings are of wood. They receive hard wear, and we need this amount to put these buildings in proper repair. The buildings are in very bad condition and this appropriation for gen- eral repairs and improvements is very seriously needed. We would like to have our estimate. The Chairman. The assistant commissioner still insists that his estimate, which is $60,100, is the smallest amount he can get along with. Is there a motion ? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 147 Senator Lane. How do you justify the excessive number, appar- ently, of employees to the number of pupils ? Mr. Meritt. Some employees are Indian employees, and they work only part of the time. Some of those employees only get $300 a year in salary. That is one of the reasons why the number of employees appears so excessive. Senator Robinson. I was not in the room when you made your statement with reference to the circumstances which made impera- tive the insertion of the item. Will you please repeat it ? Senator Page. They increased the number of pupils from 250 to 300. Mr. Meritt. We are also asking for an increase in the amount for general repairs and improvements, on account of the dilapidated condition of the buildings at this school. The buildings are of wood, and the school buildings on the reservation have very hard wear and we need the money to put them in proper condition. Senator Robinson. You can not get along with anything less than your estimate ? Mr. Meritt. We need every dollar for this school that we ask in the estimate. Senator Robinson. I move that the estimate be allowed. (The motion was agreed to.) Senator Robinson. The next item I understand Senator Fall de- sires to discuss. I saw him just as I started up from the Senate Chamber. I understand that it is a very important matter to him. Senator Page. Let us pass it over, both of those, 90 and 91. The Chairman. Items 90 and 91 will, upon the suggestion of the Senator from Arkansas, be passed over. INDIAN SCHOOL AT CHEROKEE, N. C. The Chairman. The next item is No. 97, page 34 of the bill, as follows : For support and education of one hundred and e^hty Indian pupils at the Indian , school at Cherokee, North Carolina, including pay of superintendent, $30,000; for general repairs and improvements, $6,000; in all, $36,000. Mr. Meritt. The House cut that item for general repairs and im- provements from $8,000 to $6,000. We need our estimate at this school because of the old electric Hghting system has been put out of commission, and we need the approjDriation requested restored. You wiU note the paragraph under that item, which reads : This is not a final balance, as there are probably outstanding obKgations yet to be charged against the appropriation. Senator Townsend. I think you have them pretty well in. You did not have any money running over, did you ? Senator Robinson. That estimate was made in October, I think you stated a while ago. Senator Page. June 30, for the fiscal year. Senator Robinson. If that is true, it would be about the middle of the fiscal year. Senator Page. About four and a half months in the next year. Senator Robinson. Yes; I understand. 148 INDIAN APPEOPBIATION BILL.. Senator Townsend. That would amount to $6,000 left over. I want you to have all the money you need, but I do not think we ought to appropriate large sums of money in advance of what you would probably use. The Chairman. I may say, in passing, that we are increasing the bill quite considerably over the House appropriations. Senator Robinson. Yes; and undoubtedly in conference they will receive serious consideration. Mr. Meritt. We will be satisfied with the amount allowed by the House. Senator Townsend. I do not want to cut down any item for North , Carolina, but I believe you can get along with this. Senator Robinson. I move that it be agreed to. (The motion was agreed to.) INDIAN school AT BISMARCK, N. DAK. The Chairman. The next item i^ 102, page 35 of the bill, as follows: For support and education of one hundred Indian pupils at the Indian School, Bismarck, North Dakota, including pay of superintendent, $18,200; for general repairs and improvements, $2,000; in all, $20,200. Senator Gronna. Is that the amount estimated for? Ml". Meritt. We asked for $4,000 for general improvements. The House allowed us $2,000. Senator Gronna. They reduced it $2,000, then? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. Of course if they can get along with the House allowance the Senator from North Dakota, I am sure, will not object. He, in common with all the rest of us, wants to be as economical as he can be. I move that the item be agreed to as approved by the House. Senator Page. I am rather inclined to disagree with the Senator, because the commissioner says he really needs that $2,000. Mr. Meritt. We, of course, would like to have our estimate, but we can get along with the amount allowed by the House. Senator Page. I second the motion. (The motion was agreed to.) Senator Gronna. That is $4,000 less than the estimate. Mr. Meritt. The estimate of $4,000 for repairs and improvements the House cut to $2,000. Senator Page. And the commissioner accepts that ? Senator Townsend. That will leave how much ? Senator Page. $20,200. fort TOTTEN INDIAN SCHOOL, FORT TOTTEN, N. DAK. The Chairman. The next item is No. 103, page 35 of the bill; esti- mated at $76,500; House bill, $74,500; appropriated last year, $89,500. The item is as follows: For support and education of four hundred Indian pupils at Fort Totten Indian School, Fort Totten, North Dakota, including pay of superintendent, $68,500; for general repairs and improvements, $6,000; in all, $74,500, Senator Page. Where do you ask an addition to that ? INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. 149 Mr. Meritt. We ask for general repaii-s and improvements, ,000, but we will try to get along with the amount allowed by the House. Senator Thompson. I move that it be allowed. Senator Page. The House allowed $74,500, the department esti- mated $76,500, and the commissioner says he can get along* with $74,500. Senator Townsend. Last year you had $89,500. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; we had some buildings last year. Senator Page. They improved their heating and lighting plant last year. Senator Gronna. I would hke to have the amount of at least $500 go into this item to be expended by the department for Indian fairs. I reahze that we can not very well estabhsh a pohcy of appropriating money for fairs, but I do think in this case we could let it go into the lump sum. I understand the Indians at Fort Totten have for many years believed that they should be allowed to make use of the products of their own reservation as exhibits, and I believe it would be a good thing to let them do it. Senator Townsend. You would not want to put that into the ^Indian appropriation bill without specifying what it is for. It would be' a rather bad pohcy to have the Indian Department take up a new Hne of work. Senator Page. Suppose you insert as an amendment a provision as follows : And that not exceeding $500 shall be used for the purpose of enabling the Indians to exhibit at fairs the products of their reservation. Senator Gronna. I do not see any objection to that. Last year some Senators raised the question that it was establishing a new policy ' hich might be followed by all the reservations, and of course I can see the force of that argument. I thought perhaps we could do it in some other way. I thought we could appropriate enough and then let the Indian Bureau use their own judgment as to how much they should expend for this purpose. The Chairman. Have these Indians cny money of their own, Senator? Senator Gronna. They are hving on their own land. The Chairman. They have no funds of their own? Senator Kobinson. I think the bureau would be very slow to make an expenditure of this kind unless it was authorized by the law. Senator Townsend. I do not think we ought to do it. If you are going to put this in, I have no objection, but I want it specified. Senator Kobinson. I would rather put in the bill for that specific purpose than charge the bureau with the imphed obligation of divert- ing it from the purpose for which it was intended. ' Senator Page. I think you will recognize, Senator Gronna. that it would be opening the door to a good many flagrant abuses. Senator Gronna. May I ask the commissioner this question: Has your buieau expended any money for what we might call agricultural demonstration? Mr. Meritt. We are encouraging the Indians wherever possible to hold these fairs, but we do not use gratuity appropriations for that purpose. Where the Indians have funds of their own we have 150 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. authority under tlie comptroller's decision to use certain of their funds for this purpose. Senator Townsend. Do these Indians have tribal funds ? Mr. Meritt. They have certain tribal funds, but I am not certain that we would have the right to use those funds in the Treasury. Any of the Indian funds known as proceeds of labor we can use m the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior, and I think it would be perfectly proper to have it used for the purposes of a county fair. Senator Gronna. They have been asking for a thousand dollars; I understand they have repeatedly been here, year after year, asking for a thousand dollars for this purpose. Senator Page. How would it do to put it in and see if we can get* it through ? Senator Gronna. It was put in last year. Mr. Meritt. Yes; and it was stricken out. Senator Page. In conference or in the Senate? Senator Gronna. I beUeve it was stricken out on the floor of the Senate on a point of order. Senator Robinson. I do not think it would be worth while to put it in. Somebody will make a point of order against it. Senator Townsend. You do not need any authority if they have tribal funds with which to use a reasonable amount of money for this exhibition. Mr. Meritt. These Indians have a small amount of money in the Treasury of the United States, and I think it would be inadvisable to make a gratuity appropriation for this purpose. But I see no objection to authorizing the withdrawal of not to exceed $1,000 out of their own funds to aid this fair, if that would be agreeable to Senator Gronna. Senator Gronna. That would be satisfactory to me. Senator Page. Without anything being said in the appropriation Mr. Meritt. We would want authority of law. We could not do that without specific authority of law because these funds are deposited in the Treasury to their credit, and we could not withdraw them without specific authority of law for this purpose. Senator Page. I suggest that the Senator prepare his amendment, and we wiU accept it with the proviso. The Chairman. You might make your amendment something similar to the amendment at the bottom of page 24. That might furnish you an outhne. Senator Robinson. I suggest that this item be tentatively passed. Senator Gronna. I have an amendment here, if you want to con- sider it at this time. Senator Page. But you have not an amendment predicated upon the fact that they are Indian funds, have you ? Senator Gronna. No. The Chairman. It may be brought up any time at the request of the Senator from North Dakota. Mr. Meritt. There is one other item in connection with this school that I would like to have incorporated in the bill. Since the estimates were made up the barn at that school was destroyed by fire, and it is estimated it will require $6,000 to replace it, and I INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 151 would like to have inserted in line 17, after the amount "$68,500." these words, ''for rebuilding dairy barn, $6,000." Senator Page. Suppose you read the paragraph as it will be amended. Mr. Meritt. It will read as follows : For support and education of four hundred Indian pupils at Fort Totten Indian School, Fcrt Totten, North Dakota, including pay of superintendent, $68,500; for rebuilding dairy barn, $6,000; for general repairs and improvements, $6,000; in all, ^0,500. ^ - Senator Townsend. How many cows or cattle did they have in those barns ? Mr. Meritt. Here is a memorandum that we have on this sub- ject, and I will read it for the information of the Senator: On December 3 the superintendent at Fort -Totten reported by wire tliat the horse barn at the school was totally destroyed by fire, together with 300 tons of hay, 200 bushels of corn, and other property, including wagons and machinery. In his estimates submitted December 17, 1913, the superintendent says that it will take $6,000 to reconstruct the barn. The basement of the barn, which was built of stone, was left partially intact, and over this was constructed a temporary roof, and the stock is now being housed in this rude building, A barn is absolutely necessary at this school. Heber M. Creel later visited Fort Totten, and in his report upon the fire said that the basement of stone on which the superintendent had put a temporary roof was very much damaged and would probably require reconstruction. This indicates that possibly the superintendent's nrst estimate of $5,500 is too small, owing to the fact that he estimated that the base- ment of the barn could be used on which to place tlie new structure. It is recom- mended that steps be taken to have about $6,000 additional placed in the bill in the Senate for the reconstruction of the horse barn. There is now considerable stock and machinery and forage without proper protection at this school. The winters are long and severe and the barn is absolutely necessary. Senator Townsend. That is a horse barn, is it ? Mr. Meritt. It is a combination barn; it is a horse and dairy barn. It is principally a dairy barn. The dairy herd for the school is housed in this building. Senator Robinson. If you make that $5,000 it seems to me it ought to be sufficient to construct a barn. That will make the appropriation exactly what it was last year, $89,500, and I move that the item be allowed, instead of $6,000. The Chairman. For the barn ? Senator Robinson. Yes; they ought to be satisfied with that. Senator Page. Why do you say it was the same as last year? It was $89,500 last year. It seems they are quite careless there, because last year you put in $15,000 for putting up a building that was destroyed by fire. Senator Robinson. My statement would not be entirely accurate as to those figures. Senator Page. Last year you said: For construction of power house recently destroyed by fire, and for installation, repair, and improvement of heating and lighting plant, $15,000, etc. Senator Robinson. That is a pretty high fire loss on that reserva- tion at that one point. Senator Page. It would seem that something was wrong. Senator Robinson. I wonder if the department made any in- vestigation into the origin and cause of that fire. Mr. Merett. Yes, sir; we require report to be made of all fires in the Indian Service. 152 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL, Senator Robinson. Do you know whether an inspector went there and looked into it ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. Of course those things are largely formal. Is there anything to show why in two successive years two big fires occurred at that place ? Mr. Meritt. We have in our office reports regarding those fires. I have seen the reports, but the details have passed out of my mind Senator Robinson. That is over $10,000 a year for fire loss, during two years at one place, and it would seem to be a remarkable coiq- cidence that two big fires should occur at one place in two years. At that rate the Government had better take out some insurance. Mr. Meritt. I will look into the matter and advise you later. Senator Robinson. I believe my motion is pending. Senator Page. Do you want to change your motion because of this last statement of the commissioner ? Senator Robinson. My motion was to use $5,000 for the barn, instead of $6,000, as the commissioner suggested. I think they Ought to build a barn for $5,000. That would make the total appropriation $79,500. When I said the amount would be the same as appro- priated last year, I overlooked the fact that it was $89,500 last year. Mr. Meritt. That will be acceptable to the department. Senator Gronna. Have you not found, Mr. Commissioner, that this agent is generally very careful in making estimates ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. By using Indian labor I think we can build a fairly satisfactory barn, especially in view of the fact that the founda- tion of the old barn was left intact, and it will be satisfactory to have the $5,000 for this barn. Senatf;r Page. I second the motion of the Senator from Arkansas. The Chairman. Ihe Senator from Arkansas moves that the sum of $5,000 be appropriated for the barn, which would leave the item $79,500. (The motion was agreed to.) INDIAN SCHOOL, WAHPETON, N. DAK. The Chairman. The next item is 104, page 35 of the comparison. House bill, $38,200; estimated, $40,200; appropriated last year, $43,700. The item is as follows: For support and education of two hundred Indian pupils at the Indian school at Wahpeton, North Dakota, including pay of superintendent, $35,200; general repairs and improvements, $3,000; in all, $38,200. Senator Gronna. What report did you have on that, Mr. Com-: mission er ? Mr. Mekitt. We had the estimate from the superintendent, and after goijig over the estimates we thought we could get along with $40,200 and the estimate for general repairs and improvements, $5,000. The House has cut that estimate to $3,000. I notice that Senator McCumber has offered a certain amendment regarding that. The Chairman. Yes; it is Calendar No. 98. Mr. Meritt. This, I believe, is the aim of Senator McCumber: Senator Gronna. I have his amendment before me. Senator Robinson. Do you want to take that up now? Senator Gronna. Yes; we might as well. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 153 The Chairman. Sejiator McCumber's amendment is as follows: For support and education of two hundred Indian pupils at the Indian school, "VV^ahpeton, North Dakota, and pay of superintendent, $35,200; for general repairs and improvements, $5,000; for remodeling dairy barn and for equipment, $2,000; for equip- ment for hospital, $1,200; for extension to power plant, improvement of water system, and addition to power plant, $15,000; for a domestic-science cottage and equipment, $5,000; for school building, $30,000; in all, $93,400. Senator Robinson. That is a very large increase that is proposed. The Chairman. Yes; it is. Senator Robinson. And the items in the amendment all relate to i^aprovements, and increased amount for repairs. The total esti- mated for is $40,200. Senator McCumber's amendment is $53,000 above the estimate by the department. Senator Page. We had the same proposition last year from Senator McCumber. He said this was a very fine school and a very fine town, and they wanted to make it so that they would be proud oi the school. As it was, it was rather a disgrace to the town, but they afterwards put it in good repair. Senator Robinson. What items in the estimates, Mr. Meritt, are included for repairs and improvements ? The estimates exceed the House items by $2,000, and the House items embrace $3,000 for general repairs and improvements. Senator Page. It seems that it is for rebuilding and rejuvenation of that plant. Senator Gronna. The facts are that they could have enrolled 300 pupils this year if they had had room. They now have more than 200 pupils, and it is claimed that if the buildings are secured that they would have between 400 and 500 pupils, because it is a school that is very close to the reservation. The school is crowded, and approximately oidy one-half of the pupils that could and would be enrolled are now attending that school. Senator Lane. That is the Wahpeton School ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Here is another one of those schools where you require one employee for every six students, or a little over six, and where the per capita cost is $230 for each pupil. It is high on the list, is it ? Mr. Meritt. The per capita cost is very high for the school. That is due partly to the fact that there is a small number of pupils in attendance there. Senator Lane. I noticed here the other day the explanation was made that the cost has gone up a little and the number of pupils increased. Mr. Meritt. Yes; we have increased the attendance from 150, at least, to 200 at this school. Senator Lane. And the cost has gone up from $167 to $230 while you were doing it. i • i i • i i Mr, Meritt. No; the cost has always been V( ry high at this school. Senator Lane. ^Vhy is that? You said that you did not know. - Mr. Meritt. I think the per capita cost is too high at this school. ' Senator Lane. Either it is, or it is too low m other places. Senator Robinson. What is the per capita cost? -Mr. Meritt. $230. . . , Senator Gronna. The particular reason for the large per capita cost is that the capacity of the school was increased and it had to be 154 INDIAN APPKOPRIAa?ION BILL. equipped. The money was expended largely for equipment rather than for support of the children. Senator Lane. There was only about $4,000 spent for that, was there not ? Senator Townsend. And it was raised to $200. Mr. Meritt. There is something in the report here which I will read: The amounts requested in the proposed bill for maintenance expenses and for general repairs and improvements, respectively, at this school are the same as those appropri- ated for a like purpose for the cmTent fiscal year. A departure from these amounts in the estimate of needs for this school for the ensuing fiscal year would not seem to be justified. ^ , The school plant is in a satisfactory condition . Within the last two years a consider- able sum of money has been appropriated and used for the general upkeep and im- provement of this plant, additional dormitory space has been provided, and the various departments of the school have been given more accommodations. As a result this school is now able to accommodate 200 pupils, whereas in 1912 its capacity was limited to 80. This school is located on 180 acres of land formerly within the Lake Traverse Indian Reservation, which was created for the benefit of the members of the Sissetonand Wahpeton Tribes. Allotments to 2,006 Indians covering an aggregate area of 308,838 acres, have been made. Five hundred and seventy -four thousand six hundred and seventy-eight acres were opened to settlement by proclamation of April 11, 1892, and there is no remaining tribal land within this reservation other than the com- paratively femall area reserved for administrative purposes. Senator La Follette. How has the per capita cost of this school been for some years back ? Has it jumped up ? Mr. Meritt. The per capita cost has always been high at this school. That is due to the fact that they have a small enrollment, and also to the fact that it is a very cold chmate, and it costs more to main- tain a school in that chmate. Of course, where we have 500 or 600 pupils we can reduce the cost per capita. The enrollment has been mcreased, as Senator Townsend said, from 80 to 200. Senator Page. What do you pay the superintendent there? Do you pay him more than at other schools ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. We pay the superintendent $1,600. The salary list is found on page 549 of the hearings. Senator La Follette. How does that compare with the salary list in other schools of the same size? Mr. Meritt. That is a fair salary. Senator La Follette. About the same? Mr. Meritt. About the same, Senator. Senator La Follette. Then why this increased cost* per capita? Have they been making improvements there every year? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator La Follette. Of course, that is included? Mr. Meritt. That is included within the increase; that accounts for some of it. Senator La Follette. You have been adding buildings, and I remember something about Senator McCumber making a very strong plea here for cement sidewalks, I think it was, at this school last year. Of course, an outlay for a structure of that sort is always ex- pensive in the initial investment, but in the long run it is distributed over a good many years, I suppose. Mr. Meritt. If we can get our estimates for this school we will be satisfied. INDIAN APPROPBIATIQN BILL. 155 Senator La Follette. But if you do not pay any more for supeiin- tendent and for teachers and have not an exceptionally large staff, I do not see where the high cost comes in unless it is in the improve- ments being made. Mr. Meritt. We should like to have the amount for general repairs and improvements increased from $3,000 to S5,000. That would be in accordance with our estimates. Senator Page. Do you want to have us hold up this matter until Senator McCumber can be here, or do you speak for the State ? Senator Gronna. I would rather let it go over.> Senator Page. I move that it go over. (The motion was agreed to.) SXJPPORT AND education, INDIAN PUPILS AT CHILOCCO, OKLA. The Chairman. The next item is 112, page 38 of the bill, page 593 of the hearings, $111,250 for support and education of 500 Indian pupils at the Indian school at Chilocco, Okla., including pay of super- mtendent, $86,250; for general repairs and improvements, $7,000; in all, $93,250. Mr. Meritt. The House has allowed our estimates, except one item, new buildings, $18,000. That was omitted. That is one of our largest nonreservation schools. It is conducted as well as any school in the Indian vService. It is located near one- third of the Indians of the United States, and we would be glad to. have these additional buildings so as to supply the needed equipment. Senator Townsend. How many Oklahoma Members are there on that Indian committee ? Mr. Meritt. There are two, I believe. Senator Robinson. It includes every item but one, and that is the construction of two buildings ? Mr. Meritt. The new buildings. We expected to construct two new buildings rather than one new building and an addition to one building. Senator Page. If that matter pertains particularly to Oklahoma, I suggest that we let it go over and let Senator Owen be with us. That is what we have done as a matter of courtesy with others. Senator Gronna. I suggest that it be allowed to go over until Senator Owen is present. The Chairman. The clerk will notify Senators Fall, McCumber, and Owen that to-morrow their items will be taken up. training SCHOOL, TAHLEQUAH, OKLA. " The Chairman. The next item is No. 121, page 43 of the printed biU and page 593 of the hearings, ''For the support, contmuance, and maintenance of the Cherokee Orphan Training School near Tahlequah, Oklahoma, $50,000." ,, , , i Mr. Meritt. We will be satisfied with the amount allowed by the House, Mr. Chairman. Senator Robinson. I move that it be agreed to. The Chairman. In the absence of objection it is approved at $42,000. The House approved it at $42,000. (The motion was agreed to.) 156 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. INDIAN SCHOOLS, FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. Senator Robinson. That next item was increased over the bureau estimates from $250,000 to $275,000. How did that happen? Mr. Meritt. Last year there was appropriated $300,000 for this work, and our original estimates were for $300,000, but in order to cut the estimate to bring the total of the bill down one half a million dollars less than last year they cut this item $50,000. We will not ask for more than our estimates, but we could use the amount allowed by the House. Senator Page. I move that this item be put over until to-morrow. (The motion was agreed to.) , ^ INDIAN SCHOOL, SALEM, OREG. The Chairman. The next is item No. 130, page 49 of the printed bill, page 610 of the hearings, ''Indian school, Salem, Oregon, $129,000." Mr. Meritt. We are asking, Mr. Chairman, for an addition to the assembly hall, $15,000 over the amount allowed by the House. That improvement is needed at that school, but if the committee sees fit to omit it in this year's bill we have got to get along. Senator Townsend. How long have Indians been coming from Alaska there ? Mr. Meritt. We have been permitting Indians from Alaska for a number of years to attend at that school. There are about 100 pupils from Alaska altogether, I think, in our schools. Senator Thompson. You say you can get along until next ye^r without that ? Mr. Meritt. We would like to have it built, but we want to keep the bill down as much as possible. Senator Lane. Some of these schools run down as low as six stu- dents to an employee. Here is one of your big schools which aver- ages 10. Mr. Meritt. It is because we have a larger enrollment at this school, is one reason. Senator Lane. What do you want this $15,000 for? Mr. Meritt. For an addition to an assembly hall. The assembly hall was constructed a few years ago and the appropriation was not sufficiently large to provide seating capacity for all the pupils. We should like to have $15,001) additional to increase the capacity of that assembly hall. We need the appropriation, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Will you read the amendment as you propose it shall read ? Mr. Meritt. We would like to have inserted after line 12, on page 35: 'Tor addition to assembly hall, $15,000." The Chairman. And you say it is necessary to estimate for it? Senator Page. I move we include the $15,000 for this assembly hall. I believe it ought to be there. Senator Lane. I do not know whether it should be or not. Yoi|. wiU have to use your own judgment on it. Did the House leave it out ? Senator Page. The House did not put it in. Senator Lane. You have been following the House heretofore? Senator Kobinson. No. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 157 Senator Lane. Treat it the same as you do the others. Senator La Follette. If they have not an auditorium big enough to accommodate those in attendance there, it ought to be larger. Senator Townsend. How large a city is it where this building is to be erected? Mr. Meritt. Salem is about 16,000. Senator Townsend. Nave you got estimates on such a building as you want, to cost $15,000? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The superintendent has made the estimate, and so has our construction man. Senator Townsend. It seems pecuhar to me that the estimates on these buildings are so high; take that barn business, at $6,000, with the foundation already built. Of course, if you have got actual figures that that is what it will take to construct a barn, I am for it if you need it. Mr. Meritt. I think we can construct that barn for $5,000. Senator Page. We left it at $5,000. Senator Robinson. He says he needs this improvement. Senator Page. I should hke to see it go in because I do not think we ought to cut down any appropriation for a school that he says is really needed. Senator Gronna. Do you not think you might be able to construct this building for $14,000, Mr, Commissioner? Mr. Meritt. If you only allow us $14,000 we can get along with that amount. Senator Page. I move that it be approved at $15,000. (The motion was agreed to.) . ' INDIAN SCHOOL, CARLISLE, PA. The Chairman. The next item is No. 134, page 49, of the printed bill, ''Indian school at Carhsle, Pennsylvania, $157,000.'' Senator Page. We have two Senators here who have been up and examined that school. While I do not take much stock in the report they rendered, after all I think they ought to have their say about this. Senator Robinson. The commission did visit and quite carefully investigate the Carlisle School and made a somewhat complete investi- gation of it. The school is one of the largest and most ipaportant in the entire service. We have not submitted to Congress our report in regard to the matter, but have made some suggestions to the Bureau of Indian Affairs concerning it. We have no desire and do not intend to be put in the attitude of cripphng the service. I want to say to the Senator from Vermont, in reply to the very interestmg and remarkable statement he has made, that the investigations that we made there we believe will result in the improvement of the school and the betterment of the service. Senator Page. I did not mean to make any offcDsive statement. I say I investigated that school myself, and I reached a different conclusion in regard to the conduct of the school from what you did, and I am relying upon my judgment as you are upon yours. Senator Robinson. It was not taken as offensive. If the Senator from Vermont thinks this is the proper time to try out the work of the joint commission at that school I am ready to join issue with him and shall be very glad to do it. We have several hundred pages of 158 INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. testimony which is probably now being printed. I do not know what the extent of the Senator's investigations have been, but I can assure him that our investigations were designed to be, and we beheve they werC; for the good of the school. Senator Page. I will retract what I said. I examined the school once with Senator Clapp and I foimed a pretty good opinion of the superintendent there. I thought he was trying to be a good man. Senator Eobinson. The point I make is that the investigation was not for the purpose of impairing the usefulness of the school and it does not involve the restriction of the appropriation for the benefit of the school, but it is intended to see that the appropriations are used for the benefit of the pupils who study there. * The Chairman. From your investigation, Senator Robinson, could you give us any illumination as to what we ought to do on this item ? Senator Page. That is what I wanted to say. Senator Robinson. The House has practically allowed the esti- mates. That is, the House allowed $152,000. The items aggregated S157,000 and I do not know what the reduction of $5,000 iacluded. It may be Mr. Meritt can tell us. Mr. Meritt. The reduction was in the item for general repairs and improvements. We will be satisfied with the amount allowed by the House. Senator Robinson. I move the House item be agreed to. The Chairman. In the absence of objection the item for general repairs and improvements Will be reduced to $20;000; and the total item will then be $152,000. (The motion was agreed to.) INDIAN SCHOOL, FLANDREAU, S. DAK. The Chairman. The next item is No. 135, page 49 of the printed bill, page 623 of the House hearings. ''Indian school at Flandreau, South Dakota, $69,500." Senator Thompson. There is only $2,000 difference. Mr. Meritt. We will be satisfied with the amount allowed by the House. Senator Thompson. I move that the item be agreed to. The Chairman. It is moved that the item be agreed to at $67,500. There was an amendment proposed at this point by some Senator. Senator Page. We have several items here. The Chairman. It seems that Senator Clapp proposed an amend- ment that was adopted here yesterday. We had better pause for a moment and look into it. Mr. Meritt. I believe Senator Clapp introduced an amendment for a dairy barn, $3,000. Senator Page. You do not ask it? Mr. Meritt. The school needs that barn and we shall be glad to have it. The Chairman. Is there any objection to that? It was agreed to yesterday. Senator Page. I move that we adjourn, until to-morrow at 2 o'clock p. m. (The motion was agreed to.) (Thereupon, at 4 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until Tuesday, March 24, 1914, at 2 o'clock p. m.) INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 159 TUESDAY, MARCH 24, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Ashurst (chairman), Lane, Robinson, Thomp- son, La Follette, Page, Gronna, and Townsend. PURCHASE OF LAND FOR SANITARIUM OR HOSPITAL FOR INDIANS OP NEVADA. The Chairman. Senator Newlands, I understand you have some matter that you desire to present. STATEMENT OF HON. FRANCIS G. NEWIANDS, A SENATOR FROM NEVADA. Senator Newlands. Mr. Chairman, I received your notice that I should be here to-day at 2 o'clock, regarding Senate bill 4595, being a bill to construct a sanitarium or hospital for the Indians of Nevada, and making an appropriation therefor. The bill proposes to con- struct a hospital near Carson City, Nev., for the free medical treat- ment of Indians of Nevada and for the care of the sick and infirm members of their several tribes; also another bill. Senate bill 4473, appropriating $50,000 for the purchase of lands and water rights, tbiid for the construction of houses for the purpose of making homes for the Indians of Nevada, constituting the Washoe Tribe and to enable them to become self-sustaining. Do I understand that you have received reports upon these two bills ? The Chairman. Do you purpose that this bill shall become a part of the Indian appropriation bul? Senator Newlands. That is what I had hoped. The Chairman. We have a report on the bill 4473, but no report on the other bill. It is Calendar No. 93. Senator Newlands. I have here a letter from Mr. Jones, Assistant Secretary of the Interior, addressed to the chairman of the committee, upon the subject: I will state with reference to this Washoe Tribe of Indians, that they have always been the friends of the whites. They have ne^er been at war. They have never had any reservation assigned to them, which is generally the reward that is given to a warhke tribe. So that these people have been entirely friendly and have never yet received the aid that has been given to other Indians who have been warlike. I observe that the Secretary's report only covers this one bill which is intended to secure these homes. Senator Page. May I ask you a question? Senator Newlands. Certainly. Senator Page. As to this appropriation, in your judgment, will it cover all that wiU be necessary hereafter, or is this an entering wedge for a continuing appropriation ? Senator Newlands. I can not say positively as to that. I do not know; but I assume that this $50,000 wiU be sufficient. The Secre- tary of the Interior does not say so, but this is evidently needed for the present necessities, and I imagine that, of course, those neces- sities will diminish because the tribes are gradually dying out. 160 INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BILL. Senator Page. How many heads of families are there in this Washoe Tribe ? x ^ ^ i Senator Newlands. There are about 700 Indians. I do not know how many heads of famiUes, and many of them are afflicted with bhndness. ,^ ^ • • . Senator Page. Are we now at any expense, Mr. Commissioner, tor the Washoe Indians ? Mr. Meritt. We have a general appropriation for the Indians of Nevada, but it is not adequate to provide for their needs. The department has made favorable report on this bill with the understand- ing that it is to be made general and is not to apply to this specific tribe. Senator Newlands. Yes, and there is no objection to that change. We accept the amendment suggested by the department. Senator Page. Is it an amendment that will probably go out on a point of order, if made ? Senator Newlands. I do not know. The Phaikman. It is perilously near it, on the border line. Senator Newlands. Can we not take that risk? I should hope to be able to make an appeal to the recalcitrant Senator that would move his heart. Senator Gronna. It seems to me these Indians should be taken care of. In this bill we take care of all the homeless Indians. Senator Newlands. Yes. Senator Gronna. There are places in the bill where that has been done. I believe in Arizona and in other States they have been taken care of. Senator Robinson. What is the amount of the appropriatioQ you ask, Senator? Senator Newlands. $50,000. Senator Gronna. To bring it before the committee, I move that this bill be inserted in the general appropriation bill. The Chairman. The Senator from North Dakota moves that the amendment suggested by Senator Newlands, as modified by the commissioner's suggestion, be approved. Senator Page. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have a word from the commissioner in regard to that. Mr. Meritt. We will be very glad indeed to have this item in- corporated in the Indian appropriation bill. There are a large num- ber of Indians in Nevada, and heretofore Congress has not been very liberal in making appropriations for the Indians of that State. We have a number of homeless Indians, and this bill would enable the de- partment to provide to a certain extent for those Indians. Senator Page. Why would it not be better to add a lump sum so the fund would go to other Indians? Then it certainly would not go out on a point of order. Mr. Meritt. This appropriation is for a specific purpose, and I think it would be well to use the appropriation for that purpose; whereas, if it were incorporated with the general fund, part of it might be used for support, and the rest would be used in the purchase of land. The department has no objection to the bill if it is amended as suggested, to make it general in its terms. The Chairman. Would it be possible to have an amendment as suggested by the Secretary? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 161 Senator Newlands. Yes; it is right here in this communication. Senator Page. How many Indians does this provide for ? Mr. Meritt. There are between 5,000 and 6,000 Indians in Ne- vada. Of course this would provide for the homeless Indians that are scattered. Senator Page. How much money have we appropriated generally in lump sum for Nevada Indians ? Mr. MERITT. I do not think the appropriation for Nevada Indians exceeds $50,000 a year. Senator Page. This is double the appropriation. Mr. Meritt. For this particular purpose; yes, sir; in providing them with lands. Senator Page. Have the other Indians land besides these Washoes ? Mr. Meritt. Some of them have; yes, sir. Senator Robinson. It is on page 32 of the bill. The department estimate is $60,100, and the House estimate is $47,700. Mr. Meritt. There are two items in the bill for Nevada, one for support of the Carson City School. Our estimate for that was $60,100. There is another item on page 31 of the bill as follows: For support and civilization of Indians in Nevada, including pay of employees, $18,500. Our estimate was $25,000. That item has been allowed. Senator Lane. $18,500? Mr. Meritt. $18,500 was the amount allowed by this committee. That will be insufficient to purchase any lands for these Indians; and if we could get this specific appropriation we could purchase land and water rights and get those nomeless Indians permanently lo- cated. It is a very worthy appropriation, Mr. Chairman. Senator Robinson. The item would be clearly subject to a point of order, would it not. Senator Newlands ? Senator Newlands. I have the impression that the Indian appro- priation biU is one upon which it has been the custom to put a good deal of legislation of this kind. I think that custom has been sanc- tioned by the Senate. Senator Page. I am not aware of any such custom as that. Senator Robinson. I do not think there is anything in this biU so far that is subject to a point of order; certainly nothing that has been called to my attention. Senator Newlands. I do know whether or not it would be subject to a point of order. Have you some ruhngs on that point here ? Senator Gronna. We have appropriated for the reUef of Indians, Indians in California and Arizona and other States. Senator Newlands. The Commissioner can teU us about that. Mr. Meritt. We have incorporated in the Indian appropriation bills heretofore items similar to this. Last year you will recall that there was an appropriation of $150,000 for the purchase of land for certain Wisconsin Indians, and we have expended that appropriation. Congress has also provided money for the purchase of land for home- less Indians in California. Senator Page. Did you not estimate for it ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Page. These have not been estimated for. 39746— PT 1—14- 11 .■/^"\- . 162 INDIAN" APPEOPEIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. We would be very glad, however, to see the item in- jj, repair, and maintenance of ditches, reservoirs, and dams, purchase and use of irrigation tools and appliances, water rights, ditches, lands neces- sary for canals, pipe Unes, and reservoirs for Indian reservations and allotments, and for drainage and protection of irrigable lands from damage by floods, or loss of water rights, includilig expenses of necessary surveys and investigations to determine the feasibihty and estimated cost of new projects and power and reservoir sites on Indian reservations in accordance with the provisions of section 13 of the act of June 25, 1910, $335,000, to remain available until expended: Provided^ That no part of this appro- priation shall be expended on any irrigation system or reclamation project for which specific appropriation is made in this act or for which pubUc funds are or may be available under any other act of Congress; for pay of one chief inspector of irrigation, who shall be a skilled irrigation engineer, $4,000; one assistant inspector of irrigation, who shall be a skilled irrigation engineer, $2,500; for traveling and incidental expenses of two inspectors of irrigation, including sleeping-car fare and a per diem of $3 in lieu of subsistence when actually employed on duty in the field and away from designated headquarters, $4,200; in all, $345,700: Provided also, That not to exceed seven super- intendents of irrigation, six of whom shall be skilled irrigation engineers and one competent to pass upon water rights, and one field cost accountant, may be employed; Provided further, That the proceeds of sales of material utiUzed for temporary work and structures shall be covered into the appropriation made therefor and be available . for the purpose of the appropriation; and for lands irrigable under any such system or project the Secretary of the Interior may fix maintenance charges which shall be 190 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. paid as he may direct, such payments to be available for use in maintaining the project or system for which collected: Provided further, That all moneys expendea heretofore or hereafter under this provision shall be reimbursable where the Indiana have adequate funds to repa^ the Government, such reimbursements to be made under such rules and regulations as the Secretary of the Interior may prescribe: Provided further, That the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized and directed to apportion the cost of any irrigation project constructed for Indians and made reim- bursable out of tribal funds of said Indians in accordance with the benefits received by each individual Indian so far as practicable from said irrigation project, said cost to be apportioned against such individual Indian under such rules, regulations, and -conditions as the Secretary of the Interior may prescribe. Senator Page. The House allowed $345;700. I would like to hear with regard to the necessity for that appropriation. It is quite large. The Chairman. Was that the estimate ? Senator Page. That is the estimate, and the House approved it. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, this is our general item for the irriga- tion work among the Indians. This appropriation provides for our general irrigation force, the payment of their salaries and expenses, as well as providing for the construction of small irrigation projects for Indians who are without funds. In other parts of the bill you will find specific items for irrigation projects which are reimbursable. This item is a gratuity, except for the new legislation which we have ill the item, and is found beginning on line 24 of page 3. We would like to call the special attention of the committee to this legislation in view of its importance. Heretofore the ofiice has constructed certain small irrigation projects out of the gratuity appropriations that we beheve the Indians will ultimately be able to pay for the con- struction cost, and the department would Uke to be in a position where we can require the Indians who have had their lands irrigated to pay for that construction. The language that I have specifically given is as follows : Provided further, That all moneys expended heretofore or hereafter under this provision shall be reimbursable where the Indians have adequate funds to repay the Government, such reimbursement to be made under such rules and regulations as the Secretary of the Interior may prescribe. The Chairman. Where do you find that ? Mr. Meritt. Beginning on fine 24 of page 3 of the bill. We also have another important proviso clause to this item, which reads as follows : ' Provided fiAvther, That the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized and directed to apportion the cost of any irrigation project constructed for Indians and made reim; bursable out of tribal funds of said Indians in accordance with the benefits received by each individual so far as practicable from said irrigation project, said cost to be apportioned against such individual Indian under sucn rules, regulations, and con- ditions as the Secretary of the Interior may prescribe. This legislative authority is necessary in order to meet certain •conditions now existing on the reservations where the Government has expended large amounts of tribal funds and where only a part of the Indians of the reservations receive any benefits whatever from the use of their funds. For example, on the Flathead Reservation, the Government is constructing irrigation projects for the Indians and for the white people out of Indian tribal funds, and only a portion of the Indians on that reservation will have their lands irrigated:' We beheve it is only just and fair that those Indians who get their lands irrigated should pay the cost of the irrigation work. We also believe that the white people on that reservation who are getting their INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 191 lands irrigated should pay their proportionate cost rather than have the Indians pay the initial charges and the white people take time in reimbursing the Indians. We are working that out, however, in the department, and hope to have the matter straightened out very shortly. It is, we consider, very important legislation and it cures a' defect that has arisen in the construction and administration of certain irrigation projects in the past. The Chairman. There is no question in my mind but that that last proviso is intended to cure, and does cure, a very material defect in existing conditions. There is no reason in the world that I can see why the tribal fund should be required to pay for benefits that accrue to individual Indians, and in no sense should the tribal fund be chargez with benefits that accrue to white people and under some circum- stances heretofore that has unquestionably occurred. Now, as to this item of $345,700, that is not reimbursable appropriation, prop- , erly speaking, is it ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; it is a gratuity appropriation. Senator Page. It becomes so with this proviso. Mr. Meritt. Excepting as to that specific proviso, where there is any money out of this appropriation that is used for irrigation work on a reservation where tne Indians will ultimately be able to repay the Government the Secretary of the Interior will have authority to prescribe rules and regulations to require the money to be refunded. The Chairman. But in any event where it is reimbursed it must be paid by those who are benefited. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Mr. Chairman, with reference to this matter a subcommittee was appointed here the other day, of which Mr. Owens is chairman, to provide for notice to the Indians in case of an expendi- ture of money to be chargeable to the tribal funds. I, too, have been trying to work this same proposition out that you have, and the com- missioner has, and get the matter as we would have it, namely, having these accounts chargeable to the right sources. It seems that we have plenty of other things to do, and I would Uke to ask that this be passed over. The Chairman. Is there any objection to the request of the Senator from Michigan ? ' ■' Senator Page. I did not quite catch that. Senator Townsend. I want this paragraph passed over that has reference to the payment of this fund and charging the Indians' property with it. The Chairman. If there is no objection, that will be passed. Senator Page. I understand we have passed the whole of item 31. The Chairman. Yes. Senator Page. I would like to object to that. I object because there is an time of $345,000. We have an engineer here to tell us about it, and I would like to know about it so that if I am called upon on the floor of the Senate I can make an intelligent statement with regard to it. Senator Townsend. I have no objection to the engineer saying anything about it. . i i i Mr. Meritt. Our irrigation engineer, Mr. Reed, is here, and as he is going to leave the city very shortly, if there is going to be any dis- cussion of this item the office would be very glad if it would occur 192 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. while Mr. Reed is here. He has detailed information upon the subject. Senator Page. My objection is only in order that we may hear Mr. Reed. Senator Lane. There are some things that I want to know about it, too. Senator Townsend. As I say, I have no objection to hearing Mr. Reed on this proposition if he is here. The Chairman. What is it that you desite to ascertain from Mr. Reed? Senator Lane. Who is Mr. Reed ? Mr. Meritt. He is the chief irrigation engineer for the Indian Service. Senator Lane. There is a case upon some of the reservations where this thing happens — at least I am told it does — that the property of the Indians is made responsible for all the expenses of the system,'} and then the whites get the benefit of it without having any of the responsibility for paying out money, and that the money is not expended by the department, but by some other branch of the Gov- ernment. Mr. Meritt. The Reclamation Service. Senator Lane. The Reclamation Service. Now, there is an unjust state of affairs that ought to be corrected. Do you correct that in this bill ? Mr. Meritt. We are trying to correct that now, Senator. Senator Lane. By what? Mr. Meritt. First, by legislation which will secure the Indians their water rights in this bill, and which went out on the floor of the House on a point of order. We would hke to have that legislation go back in this bill. It is absolutely necessary, and it will save the Indians' water rights, worth millions of dollars. If that legislation is not passed, the Government will be in the position of havmg con- structed irrigation projects for Indians out of their funds, and the benefits will go ultimately to the white farmers. Senator Lane. I think that is important. Now there is another thing. I am told that in some of these irrigation schemes arrange- ments have been made, or the course decided upon, whereby the Indians receive $10 an acre for the lands after they are under irriga- tion and subject to irrigation with water rights attached— $10 to S12 an acre, a fixed price, and those lands are going up all the time in value, while the surrounding nonirrigable lands, without water on them, are worth more. The department is tied; it can only secure $12 an acre for this land. Is that not true ? Mr. Meritt. I think there must be some mistake about that. I know of no such condition. Senator Lane. It is so up in Montana. I know somebody made that complaint. Senator Page. It can not be true. Mr. Meritt. There is no authority of law fixing any irrigable land at $12 an acre. Senator Lane. I will tell you who told me — this Blackfeet man that you called here as a witness. They say it will prevent the Indians forever doing anything if that is* the price on that land. It is a very unfan condition. INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. 193 Mr, Meritt. The Blackfeet Indians have a genuine complaint and we are trymg to straighten that matter out now. Their objection is to the law that has already passed Congress, which opens a large part of their reservation This land has heretofore been appraised at a certain price which they believe is inadequate. Senator Lane. $12 an acre. Mr. Meritt. We are cooperating now with that delegation with a view to submitting to Congress proposed legislation which will get this land back into the hands of the Indians as tribal property, and which will prevent the land from being thrown open to pubhc settle- ment. I think we can settle that on a basis that wiU be fair both to the Indians and to the white people. Senator Lane. Then I want to go on record as saying that I am entirely opposed to the Government as trustee for Indians — Black- feet or any other Indians — assessing their land for the purpose of irrigation, and then having vested in it the power to dispose of that land in any way whatever. I am in favor of assessing the lands of the Indians on a reimbursable plan, but I would forbid the Govern- ment officer, or the Indian himself, alienating it for a period of a good many ^ears. They are encroaching on those Indian reservations and taking the best land«j and the Indians will be in a state of poverty and we will have to make appropriations to support these people. I think it would be wiser — and it is merely my personal opinion — to irrigate these lands and then have the Government act as trustee, renting them on behalf of the Indians, on shares or for cash, and take the money which they derive from that and let the Indian have it to go into the stock business with, or farming, or anything else, and thereby help himself by holding all his land as a heritage as long as it can be done until the time comes when it will be of benefit to the people of the United States to go in and use the entire country, and then I would condemn it for such public use wherever that was necessary. But this way of using his money to make the land valuable and then letting the white man encroach upon him and the Indian receive no benefit from it is radically wrong. I think it is a ruinous policy; it is wrong, and I am going to vote against any and every appropriation on the floor of the Senate and everywhere else that does not put a stop to this kind of trusteeship. If a man was appointed a trustee for white minors and managed their estate in any such way he would be sent over the road to the penitentiary, and he ought to go there for mismanagement of affairs that were intrusted to him in honor. Mr. Meritt. I might say that Commissioner Sells has expressed that very same thought, and it is his intention to see to that here- after. Senator Lane. We are getting so much of that, and I will say frankly that I am very impatient of promises as to what is going to happen hereafter. I am willing to take reasonably large doses of it, as to what will happen hereafter, but it is the past and the present that I am talking about. It may be that Commissioner Sells and you other gentlemen will revolutionize this thing, but I would hke to have it m here in the biU so that you will have the material help of the law behind you. Is there any way that you can suggest for the solution of this matter in the way of Commissioner Sells and myself want it ? 39746— PT 1—14 ^13 194 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. I think it can be done under existing law. The Indians can dispose of their land in two ways: Under the act of March 1, 1907, known as the noncompetent act, the Indian can sell his land with the approval of the Secretary of the Interior. If the Secretary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs are true to their guardianship they will not permit the sale of the land at an inadequate price. In some cases it is advantageous to the Indian to be able to sell a part of his land in order to improve his homestead. I think it is desirable to have that legislation. The important part is that the act be carried out for the benefit of the Indians rather than for the benefit of the white man. Senator Lane. It is the same in this case as it is in all of these appropriations. We make large appropriations to carry on this sys- tem — and you gentlemen are very efficient in your management, I have no doubt — we allot the Indian 40, 50, or 60 acres and say, "Improve your allotment. '^ And then we turn him loose on it. We do not give him a plow or a team or a harrow or anything by which he can make use of it. You might as well make him a present of any other us^l ss thing. You put him there without any facilities for farming, and it is utterly impossible for him to do it. I repeat, the thing is wrong. Senator Page. Is it not true that almost always wh^re there is any authority to sell land, we put a string to it so that it will be subject to the approval of the Secretary of the Interior? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. And they have been approving this kind of work all along. Senator Page. But the man will have some land, with the discre- tionary power. Senator Lane. But after he has had discretionary power for a hundred years to do this, and every time the same thing has been done it has left the Indian absolutely helpless, but responsible and unable to get out from under it. We ought to change that. Senator Page. I agree with you, and I will say this, that in my experience on this committee there is nothing that has troubled my conscience so much as the question of these large appropriations for irrigation. They are reimbursable, to be sure, but in Montana last year they were after a milHon dollars, and this year for this whole irrigation project there is only a little less than $900,000. Senator Lane. In your justifications that I have read they show that we have spent millions of dollars Mr. Meritt. Altogether there has been spent over $9,000,000 for irrigation work for the Indians. Senator Lane. There is no justification in here showing how many Indians are farming and the proportion that are successfully engaged in farming for the expenditure of this money. I can find that in no place on no reservation. Senator Thompson. Have there been any good results from the expenditure of that $8,000,000 ? Mr. Meritt. I might say that it is my personal opinion that we have in the past gone a Httle too rapidly in the construction of irri- gation projects for Indians. It requires a great deal of intelligence and a great deal of experience for a farmer to make a success of land that is irrigated, and it is expecting too much of the Indian who INDIAN appropriat:ion bill. 195 has never farmed before to go on land under an irrigation project and make a success where white farmers have made a failure oi it. But these projects have been constructed or are now in course of construction. We are this year asking for much less for irrigation work than heretofore. You will find that we are asking, for example, on the Blackfeet Reservation, for only $50,000, whereas they have appropriated heretofore from $150,000 to $250,000 a year. The same on Fort Peck. We are asking for $100,000 on the Flathead Reservation. Congress has appropriated as high as $400,000 on that reservation. We reduced our request for appropriations on those reservations where the irrigation service is constructing projects in order that we may get down to a business basis, and -so that we might protect the interests of the Indians in order that their funds, after triis year, might not be used for the construction of projects which will largely be of benefit to the white people. You should bear in mind the fact that these projects are now in course of con- struction and require a large appropriation to complete this work, but we want to make a definite arrangement, so that the Indians' interests will be fully protected. Senator Lane. I want to say this in addition, and then I will stop. It is found in irrigating land for white farmers that for the first year or two they can not subdue soil which has never before had water on it. It requires about ^ve years before any return comes to the farmer, and that only after they have spent hundreds of dollars on their land. Congress from time to time has helped them along by extending their time. Indians, however, are expected to go right on to the land and raise a crop the first year. It is an injustice to them. It takes years to subdue that land — almost as much time as it does to grub out stump land. The Indian is placed on land which a white man can not successfully farm without being nursed by the Government, and to work it no supplies in the way of the necessary implements are furnished him. Tliis appropriation, if it is going to be a benefit to the Indian, should carry another sum almost as great as this with which to buy him farming implements — such things as are absolutely necessary in order to give him a fair start - if you propose to treat him as fairly as you do the white man. The Indian is not a farmer naturally. He is a pretty good stock- man but you have to teach him farming, and I may say that there are many white men who understand farming who come from the best States in the Union, who make a failure of it on such lands if they do not have means to carry them along. The Indian has less efficiency and less training, and he is given no show on earth to make good. I say the plan will necessarily fail; you might as well take this money and throw it into the Potomac River unless you give the Indian as good or a chance greater than you give the white man on the same kind of land and give him the tools and implements necessary to do it with. Gentlemen, this is a piece of bad legislation. Mr. Meritt. If you will pardon me, we have worked out just such a plan as you suggest. An industrial appropriation has been made amounting to nearly $1,000,000. This committee allowed the item the other day. Senator Lane. For this purpose? ' Mr. Meritt. For this purpose exactly, in order to equip the Indian to make beneficial use of the lands that have already been irrigated by the Government at the expense of the Indians. 196 INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BILL. Senator Lane. How much more time are you giving them — addi- tional time to get that land under cultivation ? ]Mr. Meritt. These appropriations for industrial work are revolving and reimbursable and the Indians are not required to return them finally until 1925. Senator Lane. That would not give him time enough. We have allowed the white man 20 years. This fund should not be made reimbursable under 40 years, and if you have not provided for that you are passing a law that will be futile to help the Indian. Mr. Meritt. We have the reimbursable appropriation until 1925; and if we find it should be extended we will be glad to get an extension. Senator Page. I have before me the 1913 book. Here is the item Montana. The department asked for $280,000 for the Flathead Reservation in Montana. You remember that ? Senator Lane. Yes. Senator Page. The Senators from Montana came in and asked to have that increased to $400,000 and we had a pretty hard fight on it. Then the House ahowed them $100,000 for the Blackfeet. The department recommended $175,000 and I moved that we give them ^175,000, and as to the Fort Pecks, the House allowed them $100,000. The department asked for $175,000 and we gave them $175,000. Senator Lane. I remember it. I voted against one of them. Senator Page. I want to say in regard to this appropriation for irrigation, if there is anything that has come to me, even indirectly, where there is a notorious waste, as far as the Indians are concerned in regard to any legislation, it is in regard to this very legislation here, and 1 am glad you put that down to the smallest sum. You have your machmery in order, and do good work, and you ought to have certain sums. I have no objection, but we figured up here what Montana asked for and find that it is $1,102,000. I am willing, as far as I am concerned, to hear Mr. Reed in regard to that main appropria- tion. Senator Lane. There is no question as to the manner in which the work is done. In some cases, however, the Reclamation Service immediately takes charge of the management of it, and expends the money free from any responsibility to anyone. Mr. Meritt. No, sir; the Reclamation Service will not spend a dollar of the money provided for in this particular item. The Reclamation Service, under a cooperative agreement heretofore approved, is now in charge of the construction work on the Flathead, Blackfeet, and Fort Peck Reservations. We want to get absolute control of this irrigation work and put it on a business basis and have reports submitted to Congress so that the department and the mem- bers of this committee and the Members of Congress may know exactly what is being done with this money, and I have prepared the following item which I would like to have as an amendment, and I would like to read it to this committee, to be inserted after the word, ''prescribe,'^ in line 12, page 4 of the bill. We want this report to be so thorough and so extensive that every member of this committee can know exactly what is being done with this money. Senator Lane. What I want to know is what return the Indians are getting for it, and I want the crop value to come i^ as an offset. INDIAN APPKOPBIATION BILL. 197 Mr. Meritt. I think we have an amendment which will cover that. This amendment proposes : And annually thereafter the Secretary of the Interior shall transmit to Congress a cost account in detail of all moneys, from whatever source derived, expended on each such irrigation project for the preceding fiscal year, which shall show the number of Indians on the reservation where the land is irrigated, irrigable area under ditch, irrigable area under project (approximate), irrigable area cultivated by Indians, irrigable area cultivated by lessees, amount expended on construction to June thirtieth of me preceding fiscal year, amount necessary to complete, and cost per acre when completed (estimated); value of land when irrigated, and such other detailed infor- mation as may be requisite for a thorough understanding of the conditions on each . system or project. Senator Townsend. Do you not have authority to make a call for that report now ? You have a law on that subject, have you not ? Mr. Meritt. We have a law calling for some information, but we want the law so specific that our field men will be required to get this detailed information. Senator Townsend. I think it is very important that you have authority to do it now. Mr. Meritt. We want authority of law, so that we can compel our field men to get this detailed and exact information. It has never heretofore been furnished, and we would like to have this item in the bill. Senator Lane. You have been going blindly about it in the past. I think you have had authority to enforce reports at any time you asked for them. Senator Townsend. I have a report here that contains practically that information that you require now. Mr. Meritt. That is the report for our engineer. Senator Townsend. I do not object to your having this informa- tion. I think you ought to have it. I think you have a law now on the subject. This commission of which I am a member made a report on the Yakima Keservation. We were appointed to investi- gate that irrigation project. I think that some of the things we pro- posed at that time could well go into this bill for the purpose of providing for irrigation. I would be very glad to hear the engineer on this project, but I would like to have that subcommittee report on the proposition, because here is another thing that we have not had put in, as I think it ought to go into the bilL Senator Lane. In your report of justifications I notice that the Pima Indians — I think it is the Pimas, or some of those Indians^ have irrigated their land from time immemorial, it may not be the Pimas, but some other tribe; they have held this land from the time that Cortez went into Mexico, and before, and I think under the general recognition of their title to this Mexican grant the Gov- ernment has never impinged upon it or taken it, and still the depart- ment has allowed the whites to come in there and secure title by adverse possession; they have allowed these squatters' rights to mature until they have taken away thousands of acres from the Indians. Mr. Reed. I do not think they could secure squatters' rights against the Indians. Mr. Meritt. Yes, thej^ have; they have secured land. Senator Lane. There is a lack of diligence and care on the part of the Government, the trustee, in allowing this property to be taken I n I 1 1 198 lis'DlAN APPROPEIATION BILL. away horn tliem by that sort of schemes. It is all wrong .^ These people have o^ott'^'ii in above the Indians and taken their water rights also, aid they are up against poverty. Mr. MEPtiiT. The reason we are particularly anxious to get this item that I have just read as a matter of law is because the Act of April 4, 1910, required us to make report to Congress giving certain information. The report is found in House Document 299, 63d Congress, 2d Session. That report is somewhat meager, yet it com- plies with existing law. We want to make that report so thorough and so detailed that we can from this report give the comrnittee any information they want about any particular irrigation project under the jurisdiction of the Indian Office. We would, therefore, like ta have that item in the bill as a matter of law. Senator Townsend. You speak of authority of law. What is there lacking now in your authority to make any kind of report or to insist upon any kind of a report you choose from those in charge of this irrigation fund ? Mr. Mekitt. I think the Commissioner of Indian Affairs could, at this time, in a letter of instructions, submit a report calling for the information required here, but the existing law only requires the department to make report such as is found here in House Document 299, and that report is so meager that it does not furnish the office or the Congress definite information, and we would like to have the law amended so we would be required to furnish this information. Senator Lane. Here is one of the Blackfeet Indians who told me the other day, and confirms the statement now, that for some time past the department you represent — I do not say it is you — set ah appraised value of SIO an acre, not to exceed S12, upon these irri- gable lands, and under that appraisal the whites acquire title to land worth a great deal more. Kaw lands outside which are not irrigable are worth several times as much. Is that true ? STATEMENT OF MALCOLM CLARK, BROWNIlfG, MONT. Mr. Clark. The appraisement of our land up there, the best of our land, that is, the land that can be covered with water, is appraised at $10 an acre, maximum value; from $7 to SIO an acre. The Chairman. What is it actually worth ? Mr. Clark. The land that is adjacent to this $10 land of ours, land that is just across the fine, just across the dividing fine, that can not be watered, is selling around $20 an acre. It is not irrigable land and it is not as good land as we have, yet that is selling for $20 an acre and the land that we own, that is to be watered, is only appraised at $10. The Chairman. What is it worth ? Mr. Clark. It is worth $30 at least. Senator Townsend. That is up on the Blackfeet Agency ? Mr. Clark. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. What do you do with that land up there ? Mr. Clark. Nothing, so far. Senator Townsend. What do you do with it ? Did you not say* to-day that you could not farm up there ? Mr. Clark. It is not an agricultural country. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 199 Senator Townsend. What do they irrigate the land up there for if you can not raise anything on it ? Mr. Clark. If we had had our say about it we never would have irrigated an acre of that land. That irrigation system was forced upon us. We know it is not an agricultural country and that is why we are trying to argue before you people that it is grazing land and we want to be put on a stock basis. We have no use for that water. The climate is too cold. The land is all right and the soil, but the climate is too cold. We have frost almost every month in the year and we never wanted that. Senator Lane. This money is being spent for something that is of no use to them. That is what they claim, that the land is valuable for grazing purposes, but the money is being spent for something that is of no use to them. The Chairman. As to this item of $345,000 that is under considera- tion, let us get back to that. Mr. E-eed, this is a gratuity appropria- tion except as is contemplated in the last proviso. How is it expected that this $345,000 will be expended ? Mr. Reed. The hst is right here. It will be found at page 33 of the hearings of the subcommittee of the Committee on Indian Affairs of the House. I can read that. The Chairman. There is no necessity to read it. That is an item- ized statement of the way it is contemplated that this $345,000 appro- priation shall be exj) ended, is it ? Mr. Reed. Yes, sir. The Chairman. That contemplates an expenditure on a large number of reservations in Arizona, New Mexico, California, Colorado, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington. Senator Page. They are all small appropriations, you will boserve. The Chairman. Is a part of this appropriation to be expended in Montana ? Mr. Reed. No, sir. The Chairman. Then, so far as this immediate item is concerned, it does not relate to the Montana project, the Blackfeet Reservation? Mr. Reed. No, sir; these are special appropriations. It is not in this immediate item. The Chairman. Is there any further information desired from Mr. Reed, Mr. Meritt, concerning this item ? Senator Townsend asked that the final disposition of the matter be passed, and if there is no further information I would Hke to" go to the next item. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, Senator Townsend gave us a pro- posed amendment to this bill, and while Mr. Reed is here, as he is going away in a few days, I will say that we have drafted a substi- tute item which I would Uke to have incorporated in the bill as a pro- viso, and if there is no objection, while Mr. Reed is here, I would like to have this item read to the committee. Senator Townsend. I would be very glad to have it done, so far as I am concerned. 1 1 vi ^ t_ Mr. Meritt. The further proviso that we would like to have added to this item reads as follows : And provided further, That hereafter the construction of no Indian irrigation project estimated to cost $35,000 or more to be reimbursable out of Indian tribal funds shall be begun until the Indians whose funds it is proposed to use for such purpose shall 200 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. have been consulted and they shall have been given a reasonable opportunity to express in writing their views thereon, either through their duly authorized business committees or through general councils or meetings of said Indians. We would like to have that item as a proviso clause to follow imme- diately the proviso clause that I have just referred to. Senator Townsenp. Is there any objection to the amendment that I had there ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; we have no objection to that. Senator Townsend, Then you have "nothing else that you want to add to that ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Townsend. Will you please leave those so that we can have them for consideration? I hope Senator Owen will call the committee together, because there are a number of things I want to go over in reference to that matter. This commission went over that matter very thoroughly, and I think there are some suggestions that we made that are worthy of consideration, and I want to put them in the bill. A subcommittee was appointed to take up this matter, but Senator Owen has not called us together. The Chairman, Do you want to take the matter up now and dis- pose of this feature of it ? Senator Townsend. No; I would rather the whole matter should go together so that we can put it in and report on it later. The Chatrman. Tf there is no objection, that course will be pursued. Senator P.agk. You mean you will pass item 2 on p^ge 2 of the present bill ? The Chairman. Until the subcommittee reports. Without objection, the item was passed for further consideration, together with the amendments suggested by Mr. Meritt and Senator Townsend. Senator Townsend. May I ask, Mr. Meritt, whether there is any objection to having that notice to the Indians apply to all appropria- tions for other projects as well as irrigation with regards to moneys to be spent from their funds ? Mj. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Townsend. I can see no objection myself. Mr. Meritt. You mean the use of the tribal funds ? Senator Townsend. Yes. IRRIGATION OF LANDS OF PIMA INDIANS. The Chairman. We will now take up item 28k, printed bill 15, hearings, 297. The item is as follows; For maintenance, care, and protection of machinery and irrigation wells already cbmpleted, in connection with the irrigation of the lands of the Pima Indians in the vicinity of Sacaton in Gila River Reservation, $10,000, reimbursable from any funda of said Indians now or hereafter available. Senator Page. We have passed that once, but I think we apptoved items 28 and 29 which are the small items we discussed. Mr. Meritt. Yes; you allowed us our estimate in that item. (The item was approved.) IKDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 201 COLORADO INDIAN RESERVATION, ARIZ. The Chairman. The next item is No. 32, page 16 of the printed bill, as follows : For the construction and repair of necessary channels and laterals for the utilization of water in connection with the pumping plant for irrigation purposes on the Colorado River Indian Reservation, Ariz., as provided in the act of April 4, 1910 (36 Stat., p. 273), for the purpose of securing an appropriation of water for the irrigation of approxi- mately 150,000 acres of land and for mamtaining and operating the pumping plant, $15,000, reimbursable as provided in said act, and to remain available until expended. Mr. Meritt. The House allowed us $15,000; we estimated $17,000. We have already constructed an irrigation project on this reservation, and it is practically completed. This appropriation is for the purpose of extending the laterals on that reservation, keeping up the pumping plant, and other incidents in connection with the project. There are about 500 Indians on this reservation. They have been allowed 10 acres of land each. They have some very valuable irrigable land. The House allowed us $15,000, and our estimates were for $17,000. Senator Page. Do you mean to say you can not get along with $15,000? Mr. Reed. We will have to get along on what we have. Senator Lane. The question is on agreeing to the item as allowed by the House ? (The item as allowed by the House was agreed to.) irrigation system, PAPAGO INDIAN RESERVATION. The Chairman. The next item is a new item — No. 33, page 314 of the hearings, as follows: For enlarging the irrigation system for the irrigation of Indian lands, for protective works to prevent damage to irrigable lands by floods, and for development of domestic water stipply on the Papago Indian Reservation in Arizona in accordance with the plans and specifications submitted by the Chief Engineer in the Indian Service and approved by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Secretary of the Interior, in conformity with the provisions contained in section 1 of the Indian appropriation act for the fiscal year 1911, $50,000: Provided, That the total cost of this project shall not exceed $150,000, and to remain available until expended. Mr. Meritt. We estimated for this item, Mr. Chairman, and the House omitted it entirely. It is for the purpose of providing an irri- gation system for the Papago Indians in Arizona on the Papago Indian Reservation. I would like Mr. Reed to explain the details of this item, as it is very important that we get this appropriation this year; otherwise the Indians will probably lose some of their valuable water rights. The Chairman. Is this a reimbursable appropriation or a gratuity ? Mr. Meritt. It is a reimbursable appropriation. We have sub- mitted to Congress a detailed report, which is to be found in House Document 973, Sixty-second Congress, second session. The Chairman. We will hear Mr. Reed's explanation. STATEMENT OF MR. W. M. REED. Mr. Reed. Mr. Chairman, this is for an irrigation system, which is principally a pumping proposition. Many years ago there was a rea- sonable amount of water flowing on the surface, but owing to heavy floods it has been gradually cutting it down until it is impossible to get 202 INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. a certain proportion of the water onto the surface by gravity. In the meantime other people have undertaken to develop an irrigation proj- ect below, in the vicinity of Tucson. They have begun pumping, depending almost entirely upon pumping for their water supply. This, of course, is lessening the water supply and attaching a right to those who are beneficially using the water at a lower point. In addition to this, another company — operating at least under another name — has gone above the reservation and are there attempt- ing to develop water for a similar purpose, irrisfation. They will in a short time undoubtedly secure water rights for beneficial use and as each inch or foot of water is secured the rights of the Indians to secure are lessening and the Indian w^ho owns the reservation right in the heart of this territory is actually losing his opportunity to make perfect title to the water or to make any title. This has been thoroughly studied and this report has been made, which has been mentioned as being a Senate document. It has been estimated that $150,000 would be required to complete the plant up to its capacity and the water available. Every year that this is not undertaKen the others are securing the water and the Indian's opportunity to secure water is becoming less because it is an arid country and the rainfall is small, and there is only a limited amount of water, and it is very easily understood how if this is put off until the white men both above and below have perfected their title of beneficial use, that the Indian will probably be stopped by law, even if the appropriation was made at a lower date, and he would be left worse off than he was in 1540. The Chaikman. Have you an idea as to what the irrigable area of that reservation is that might be irrigated under that systf ml Mr. Reed. About 3,000 acres. The Chairman. You regard it as in the nature of an emergency appropriation then? Mr. Reed. I regard the time of making it emergency; yes, sir. The Chairman. If it be not made now you think priority of right will be obtained by the white people above and below, and it may be hereafter impossible to secure water for the Indians ? Mr. Rped. I do. The Chairman. What do you think, Senators? Senator Page. This is only the commencement of this appropria- tion. If we appropriate $50,000 this year, we mU probably nave to appropriate $50,000 next year. Mr. Reed. A total of $150,000; yes, sir. Senator Page. So when we enter into this project we will probably waste it unless we spend $100,000 more. Mr. Reed. Not entirely waste it, but you would not get the ulti- mate. benefit from it that you would if you spent $150,000, because it would be one of the units of a whole. Senator Page. It is reimbursable? Mr. Reed. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. And you think you can irrigate it for about $50 an acre? Mr. Reed. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. That is very cheap. It is a very low initial cost as compared with what it is in other places. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 203 Senator Townsend. How about the Indians ? Do they want this project up there? Mr. Reed. These Indians are energetic. They have in the past lived by farming, by irrigation. They have illustrated that desire for water by spending 1 ,000 days' labor in trying to secure water from the flow oi the Barranca, and by the time they got opened up a storm came down and destroyed all their work. The Chairman. Do the Indians themselves object to putting water on this land ? Mr. Reed. No, sir. The Chairman. Do you know of their having the soldiers there to quiet the disturbance that grew out of the matter on that account ? Mr. Reed. I never heard of that. I did not know that the soldiers were ever there. The Chairman. The Senator from Vermont moves that the item be inserted in the bill. Senator Townsend. We have a suggestion niiule here by Mr. Clark which is typical of a number, I think, where wo are spending the Indian's money contrary to what he believes and knows to be his best interest. Now, we are making a further provision, if I under- stand it correctly, that these matters must be submitted to the Indians before these moneys are spent. Now, if this is another Black- feet proposition of putting a vast amount of money into an irrigation plant without getting any benefit at aU, so that the land itself, in lact, is selling for a less price after irrigation — that has the possibilities of irrigation — and before it is touched I would like to know it. Senator Lane. That is exactly the opposite of the Blackfeet propo sition. Here is some land that is not watered and they can get the water, and it will do the greatest possible good, and in the other case you are sticking a lot of stockmen to pay for watering land where it does not do any good. Mr. Meritt. I might add tJiat tliese Indians are very industrious Indians. They are anxious to get water on their land, 'i'he irust period on their allotment has very nearly expired. We have author- ity, however, with the approval of the 1 resident, to extend that trust period for a certain time. We are anxious to get tliis water on the land and excend this trust period so that these Indians can become absolutely self supporting. They will make good use of this water. It wiU be very valuable irrigable land. The conditions on this reser- vation are entirely different from what they are on tlie Blackfeet Res- ervation. The j>lackfeet Reservation, on account of climate and certain conditions, is pecuharly adapted to stock raising, but this res- ervation is peculiarly an irrigable country. The Chairman. Mr. Abboit is present, and I would like to ask him a question. When you were Deputy Commissioner of Indian Affairs, connected directly with the service, do you recall a disturbance about this proposition ? Mr. Abbott. No; I do not, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. I was informed that during your administration there was some disturbance about the matter. The question is on the motion of the Senator from Vermont. (The item was agreed to.) 204 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. DIKE ON FORT MOHAVE RESERVATION, ARIZ. The Chairman. The next item is No. 34, printed bill page 19, hear- ings, 319, as follows: For maintaining, strengthening and raising the dike constructed to protect the irri- gable lands on the Fort Mohave Reservation, Arizona, from damage by flood, $5,000, reimbursable out of any funds of said Indians now or hereafter available. Mr. Meritt. The House allowed us our estimate on this item, (The item was agreed to.) WATER FOR PAP AGO INDIAN VILLAGES. The Chairman. The next item is No. 35, printed bill, 19, hearings. 322, as follows : For improvement and sinking of wells, installation of pumping machinery, construc- tion of tanks for domestic and stock water, and for the necessary structures for the development of a supply of water for domestic use for eight Papago Indian villages in southern Arizona, $20,000. The House allowed $20,000. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, we would like very much to have our estimate in connection with this item. These are Papage Indians that we spoke about a few days ago when the school items were con- sidered. These Indians are living under conditions that would be almost impossible for white people to live under. They are very energetic people, and we think with this appropriation we can develop a sufficient water supply for these Indians so that they can become more self-supporting than they are at this time. They are not ask- ing for any gratuity appropriations; they have not heretofore. We would like to aid them to the extent of procuring water for them so that they can make a success of stock raising and small agricultural pursuits. The Chairman. Is this a graity appropriation ? Mr. Meritt. This is a gratuity appropriation; yes, sir. The Chairman. How is the water supply to be secured ? Mr. Meritt. By drilling weUs. We have one well rig out in that country at this time. Mr. Reed can explain the details of that. Senator Townsend. As I understand it, this is a case where the Indians do not own the land. Where are you going to dig the well? The Papagos are living, as I understand, in little villages on land that does not belong to them. Mr. Meritt. We have created executive ordfer reservations in two cases, I believe, and set aside land for these Indians. They ai-e living in villages and we expect to get an executive order reservation cov- ering all the land where the work is now in progress. Senator Townsend. Do you propose to dig the wells before you get the reservation set atide ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. We have had men in that country making surveys. The land heretofore has not been surveyed, and we have data sufficient to enable us to get the land set aside and we have well- drilling outfits there so that we can furnish these Indians with water. Senator Page. These wells are drilled in the little villages, are they not — the Indian villages around there? I judge that from the hearings. INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 205 Mr. Meritt. Mr. Reed has a map here, and I would be glad to have him answer any questions. Senator Eobinson, Where do they get their water supply now ? Mr. Meritt. From little hand-dug wells. Senator Robinson. Is the water supply adequate now ? Mr. Meritt. It is for domestic purposes only. Senator Robinson. What are you going to use this water supply for? Mr. Reed. To raise some little gardens. These Indians are called the nomadic Papagos. They live at their villages on the lower eleva- tions during the season when there is water, either obtained from little reservoirs that they have constructed themselves or in a very few places such as we have chosen for irrigation purposes where there is water available below, but when it becomes dry and the season of drought comes on they go back to the higher country where is more water and drive their flocks with them. They are to-day principally living on the product of their flocks, with what little irrigation and with what little farming they can do by what is called the dry-farming methods. They have developed on their own reservation dry-farming methods — methods that Mr. Burbank himself might take notice of. Diverting a little, I may say that they have raised a bean that can not be raised anywhere else, and which is raised only by them. Our object is to protect their rights. There is at the present time another railroad survey made through the southern portion which if constructed would bring the white man there and he would take those places probably that have shallow water and the Indian who is just able to exist now would have his last re- sources cut off and would probably be a charge upon the Government in a short time. The reservations have been made, and a few withdrawals, which are indicated on this map. Upon those we could begin work at once. We do not contemplate any large irrigation scheme. If we can get them two or three acres upon which they can raise something to eat, a few beans and a few other vegetables — they do raise the pumpkin — we will begin there at once. The other place which we have tenta- tively selected for site would have to be withdrawn. We understand perfectly well that we should not, and will not, expend one cent upon the public domain in developing water or anything of that kind, but we have selected those places and if we should have this appropria- tion would take the necessary steps to secure the land and would put these 5,000 Indians, who are now only semilocated, upon a basis where they could still exist even though the white man might get in. Senator Townsend. But do you think that this nomadic tribe would stay ''put." Mr. Reed. They never move until they are compelled to. Senator Robinson. They are not very nomadic then ? Mr. Reed. That may be a misnomer, but it is a name that has been applied to them. Senator Robinson. If the House item is allowed, what will be the effect on your service there ? The House allowed you $20,000, I believe, on that item. Mr. Reed. We asked for $35,000. This is something that we wonH lose by the use of the $20,000 because it is made up of a number of units — not one big project. We could utilize the $20,000. 206 INDIAN APPKOPKIATION BILL. Senator Robinson. Would the $35,000 be adequate for all of them? Mr. Reed. The $35,000 would probably develop all the water that we believe, or know, exists to-day. Senator Page. Senator Robinson, on page 322 of the House hear- ings they show that it costs $4,450 for each well, and they give the names of the eight different tribes. That would make $35,000 if we gave a well to each tribe. Senator Townsend. Is this the tribe that had the hand dug wells that someone spoke of yesterday ? Mr. Reed. I do not know that they have. These are the Indiang that are referred to. Senator Townsend. Is this going to be artisian water, or is it to be pumped — going down a thousand feet for it ? ' Mr. Reed. No, sir; none of the places which we have selected for irrigation supply has a great depth. It is shallow; it hes in what is called in that country a wash that accumulates drainage from thousands and thousands of acres and is moving on toward tbis drainage center. We won't attempt to pump water for irrigation 400 feet. We migbt pump it for stock or domestic use, but not for irrigation. Senator Robinson. We are increasing this bill, Mr. Chairman, a great deal, but tte statement that is made in justification of this item is rather forceful. T beUeve I will move that the estimate be allowed . Senator Lane. All the Indians in that country ought to have water, if they can get it. Senator Page. I second the motion of the Senator from Arkansas. The Chairman. The question is on the motion of the Senator from Arkansas that the item be approved at $35,600, the estimate. (The motion was agreed to and the item was approved.) WATER SUPPLY OF NAVAJO RESERVATION.^ The Chairman. The next item is No. 38, page 20, of the bill, page 333 of the hearings, as follows: For continuing the development of the water supply for the Navajo Indians on the Navajo Reservation^ $15,000, to be immediately available and to remain avail- able until expended, reimbursable out of any funds of said Indians now or hereafter available. Mr. Meritt, The House cut our estimate to $15,000, but we would like to have the $50,000. Congress appropriated last je&T $15,000 for this work. One of the greatest needs of the Navajo Indians is water. There is a great scarcity of water in that country and we think that we can develop an underground water supply sufficient to meet the most urgent needs of those Indians. Senator Lane. This is a class of people who have taken care of themselves; they are almost self-supporting; they are free from tuberculosis, and are out on the high land of the most desert country in America, and I am in favor of helping them along. The Chairman. The Senator from Oregon moves that the item be approved. (The motion was agreed to and the item was approved at $50,000.) INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL, 207 YUMA ALLOTMENTS. The Chairman. The next item is No. 45, page 21 of the bill, page 66 of the hearings, as follows : . For reclamation and maintenance charge on Yuma allotments, $40,000, to be reim- bursed from the sale of surplus lands or from other funds that may be available, in accordance with the provisions of the act of March 3, 1911. Mr. Meritt. The House has allowed our estimate on this item. Senator Robinson. I move that the item be agreed to. (The motion was agreed to and the item was approved.) FORT HALL (iDAHO) IRRIGATION SYSTEM. The Chairman. The next item is No. 50, page 22 of the biU, page 374 of the hearings, as follows: For maintenance and operation of the Fort Hall irrigation system, $20,000, reim- bursable to the United States out of any funds of the Indians occupying the Fort Hall Reservation now or hereafter available. Mr. Meritt. The House cut our estimate, to $20,000. We need the entire appropriation of $40,000 for this irrigation project. We also invite attention to the fact that the House eliminated tne proviso clause to this item, which reads as follows : Provided, That the use of so much water as may be necessary to supply for domestic, stock watering, and UTigation purposes land allotted or to be allotted to Indians on the Foi;t Hall Reservation or set aside for administrative purposes within said reservation is hereby reserved, and the failure of any individual Indian or Indians to make beneficial use of such water shall not operate in any manner to defeat his or her right thereto. All laws or parts of laws in conflict herewith are hereby repealed. Senator Eobinson. Was that your proviso ? Mr. Meritt. That was our proviso. * Senator Robinson. What was the idea of it ? Mr. Meritt. For the purpose of preserving the water rights of the Indians and preventing white people from mtimately getting waters that now belong to the Indians. Senator Robinson. Is there a danger of that occurring? Mr. Meritt. There is a danger of that occurring on several Indian reservations where large irrigation projects have been constructed, and this is one of them. Senator Lane. This is one of the cases where the white man is paying one-third of the construction work. According to a state- ment made by Mr. Reed, or some one, I see that they have made a great profit out of this at the expense of the Indians. Mr. Meritt. In the House hearings we have set that out. Senator Robinson. Will the white man get two- thirds of the bene- fit of this appropriation ? Mr. Reed. No, sir; it does not work that way. The land as it stands to-day has cost in the neighborhood of $20— between $18 and $20 an acre for irrigation, by act of Congress on that portion of the ceded strip which is occupied by white men. The water right was sold at $6. This appropriation that we are asking for is for the main- tenance and upkeep of the whole system which includes Indians and whites. Senator Robinson. What part of that will the whites have to pay ? Mr. Reed. They will pay on about 12,000 acres. 208 INDIAN APPKOPKIATION BILL. Senator Robinson. But what proportion of it? Mr. Eeed. Of this $40,000 ? Senator Robinson. Yes. Mr. Reed. Well, the way the particular project is handled, they are assessed a dollar a year for maintenance — they will be this year; that is deducted and the balance will go back into the Treasury. Senator Robinson. They will pay them $12,000 a year for main- tenance ? Mr. Reed. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. I understand that they have paid about one-third of the cost of irrigation, as has been done in the past, Mr. Reed. For water rights; yes, sir. • Senator Page. Tliis is reimbursable, you say, Mr. Reed. How much does that reimbursable feature amount to ? Mr. Reed. It would amount to $12,700. Senator Robinson. How does it happen that the whites are pay- ing just about one- third of the actual cost ? What I want to know is does your administration approve of that pohcy, and if not, what are you going to do to stop it ? Mr. Reed. We most certainly do not approve of that policy, but I beUeve Mr. Meritt knows more about the act than I do. Senator Robinson. Was it under an act of Congress ? vSenator Lane. Yes; it was under an act of Congress. Mr. Mekitt. I might say that this was done by an act of Con- gress and was not requested by the Indian Office. Tliis item of leg- islation was secured by a Senator from that State, and he was cer- tainly looking out for his constituents. Senator Robinson. He was looldng out for his white constituents. Senator Lane. Where the whites do not catch them, Congress or the department does. Senator Robinson. I am anxious to know about this particular item of appropriation. I would Uke to call a halt on that kind of thing, as of course everybody here does when it is called to their attention. If we appropriate this $40,000 that you have asked for wiU the whites get an unfair share of that? Mr. Reed. No, sir. Senator Robinson. What will they get out of it ? Mr. Reed. You might say their pro rata of the project, about twelve fortieths; they may be said to be benefitted to that amount because the money will be applied to the whole system. This system is a comparatively new one. It has not been what we called seasoned. It is built along through a country where the winds are pretty high, and it has considerable drainage and needs something more now than mere maintenance and upkeep. Senator Robinson. I do not seem to be able to make myself clear, and I am willing to admit that it is my own obscurity in the matter — I really think it is. But your answer is not responsive to the question I have asked. Mr. Reed. I beg your pardon. I did not understand it. Senator Robinson. Maybe I did not understand what I have asked. But is this $40,000 reimbursable? Mr. Reed. Yes, sir. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 209 Senator Robinson. What part of that $40,000 will be repaid b}^ the whites? Mr. Reed. Twelve thousand forty- thousandths. Senator Robinson. Is that approximately twelve fortieths based upon the amount which they are now paying, orJs it based upon, a fair apportionment of the cost? Mr. Reed. That apportionment is based upon the acreage. Senator Robinson. Then as far as this particular item is concerned it is fairly apportioned — that is, it is apportioned according to area? Mr. Reed. According to area. Senator Robinson. Do you know why the House cut the item $20,000? Do you understand the theory upon which it was done? Mr. Meritt. They cut the item simply because $20,000 was allowed last year. We need an additional amount this year because there should be additional laterals constructed, and some of the laterals should be improved. None of this appropriation would be used in the actual construction of the irrigation project. That is completed. This is simply to get the benefit of the project already constructed. Senator Robinson. What is the total of the land now irrigated under that system ? Mr. Meritt. You will find that on page 377 of the House hearings. Mi\ Reed. 6,089. Senator Robinson. The white are actually cultivating about twice the area that the Indians are ? Mr. Reed. Yes, sir. Mr. Meritt. The figures found on page 375 estimate the area of the project at 50,000. Senator Lane. In answer to that question I will say that the fol- lowing appears on page 379 : Mr. Carter. I notice that in youi' justification you state that there are 35,000 acres which may be irrigated, and that there are now irrigated by Indians 3,300 acres; by whites, 5,900 acres; and leased, 185 acres. I want to ask you how you manage to calculate the cost of the water furnished to the whites, etc. That is the justification of that Fort Hall item. Senator Robinson. The maintenance and operation charges are just according to acreage ? Mr. Reed. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. So as to these charges the whites wiU pay their fair cost whatever discrimination may have occurred under the act of Congress in their favor ? f ; Mr. Reed. That is our intention; yes, sir. , vSenator Lane. But here is an appropriation made for irrigation of land out of the Indian fund, reimbursable, under which the whites are the ones who are doing the principal part of the irrigation, and the Indian is a minor partner with less interest in it, although he needs it — I am wilhng to concede that. Mr. Reed. He needs it. . , i j. Senator Robinson. I beheve I will ask that that item be passed for the present. ^ . . . ■ The Chairman. That item will be passed upon the request of the Senator from Arkansas. • ^u^. 39746_PT 1—14 14: -J i 210 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. SUPPRESSION OF LIQUOR TRAFFIC. Senator Page. Mr. Chairman, yesterday you appointed a subcom- mittee of three with authority to look into the matter of the amend- ment proposed on page 4, line 13, of the bill. That subcommittee has had a meeting and has decided to report adversely upon the proposed amendment of Mr. Meritt. The item referred to is as follows: /^For the suppression of the traffic in intoxicating liquors among Indians/' etc. It was proposed to amend that by inserting the words ''or deleterious drugs, herbs, and plants." Your committee decided that it was inadvisable to include that amendment. Senator Robinson. I beheve that is best myself. ♦ The Chairman. The report is that we do not accept the amendment proposed by the department, and that the item be left as it is. Senator Page. Yes, sir. Mr. Meritt. I would like to call the attention of the committee to the proviso clause we would like to. have inserted, which I have just read. Senator Robinson. Is that relating to the suppression of liquor item? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Robinson. Suppose we dispose of that first ? The Chairman. The subcommittee has reported to the full com- mittee that the suggestion made by the department regarding the insertion of the words, ''other deleterious drugs," and so forth, be not approved. The question is on the adoption of lines 13 and 14 as they appear in the printed bill. Senator Lane. I think that report is not entirely as we made it. We were perfectly willing to leave peyote out, but I think we said we ought to include opium and its derivatives. I think it was the peyote question that we were talking about, and I think that both of us agreed that cocaine and opium ought to be included. I think the peyote was the thing we left out on account of its religious signifi- cance. Senator Page. If they wish to submit another amendment, we will consider it. (The report of the committee was adopted.) Senator Lane. Senator Myers asked me to request the committee to pass over the Montana items until he was present. FORT HALL (iDAHO) IRRIGATION SYSTEM (rESUMED). Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, we would like to have the proviso inserted after the word "available," in line 10, page 22, which I have already read. The Chairman. That is the proviso which appears on page 374 of the hearings ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. I move that that be agreed to. The Chairman. In the absence of objection that motion will be agreed to and the proviso which is set out on page 374 of the hearings will be incorporated at the place named. Mr. Meritt. There is full justification of this item on page 378 of the hearings. We consider this very important legislation, and if we INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 211 can get this language in the bill we will protect water rights of the Indians worth several millions of dollars, and unless we do get this legislation, or legislation similar to this, the Indians will ultunately lose their water rights because they can not make beneficial use of them the same as the white people, and under the State laws those water rights will ultimately revert to the white farmers in the local communities. Senator Robinson. That is the same item that we have just embraced in this proviso ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. Where else does it need go in the bill? Mr. Meritt. I will point them out as we reach them. MONTANA. - The Chairman. Upon the suggestion of the Senator from Oregon the Montana items will be passed unless there is some one present who wishes to be heard on them. Mr. Meritt. May I make the suggestion that we bring out the information while Mr. Reed is here and not take final action until Senator Myers is present ? The Chairman. Yes. That would seem to be a time-saving way. Senator Robinson. Did the House allow your estimates as to Montana? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; but there is certain information that we want to bring out. milk river irrigation, fort BELKNAP RESERVATION, MONT. The Chairman. The next item is No. 73, page 29 of the bill, page 442 of the hearings, as follows: For maintenance and operation, including repairs, of the Milk River irrigation system on the Fort Belknap Reservation in Montana, $20,000, reimbursable in accord- ance with the provisions of the act of April 4, 1910. Mr. Meritt. Our estimate calls for $25,000 and the House allowed us $20,000. This is an irrigation project that has been very helpful to the Indians on that reservation. We have not the same complaint to make against this project that we have against the Flathead and Blackfeet and Fort reck projects — especially the Flathead project. I would Hke Mr. Reed to answer any questions that may be asked by the committee. Senator Robinson. Is the House allowance sufficient to do the work that is necessary? . 'f Mr. Reed. No, sir; we consider not. Senator Robinson. What do you propose to do with this item? Mr. Reed. This is a system that has been constructed, or a portion of it, for some time. It was, in the earlier days, constructed largely of timber — wood — and the structures have begun to fail from age, or something else, and we need this additional amount to what we have had to rehabilitate, you might say, these old structures. There are some portions of the reservation upon which Indians heretofore have not shown a disposition to farm. They are now showing a disposi- tion, and it is necessary to put these ditches in and get their land back into condition. Some of them have very bad vegetation, and 212 INDIAN" APPROPRIATION BILL. it requires extra money to put that back; that is, to keep up and not to advance beyond what the Indians will take advantage of, but try to keep abreast with him. It is not the idea to carry irrigation away from him any longer, but just keep up with him, so that when he wants water he 2:ets it. vSenator Lane! How many acres of irrigable land are there that these Indians are cultivating on this reservation ? Mr. Meritt. All of that information is to be found on page 443 of the House hearings. Senator Page. It says, ''acres cultivated by Indians, 7,670." Are the Indians cultivating that many acres ? Mr. Reed. Yes, sir; that is, irrigated. There is some portion of that that is hay land. It is not plowed, but the hay on it is probably doubled and trebled by their methods. Senator Lane. I would like to ask if you include wild hay land as land that is cultivated? I am always in a quandary when you say acres cultivated by Indians, whether you mean wild hay land or plowed land. How many actual acres of land do they cultivate which is irrigated, and on which they use a plow and a harrow and raise crops, alfalfa, and other things ? Mr. Reed. I can not tell you right now. Senator Lane. It is not 7,670, is it ? Mr. Reed. No, sir. Senator Lane. Probably not half of that ? Mr. Reed. Probably about half. That is a guess, I should say. Senator Page. Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee do now adjourn. The Chairman. The Senator from Vermont moves that the com- mittee do now adjourn. (The motion was agreed to, and at 4 o'clock p. m. the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Thursday, March 26, 1914, at 2 o'clock, p. m. ' THURSDAY, MARCH 26, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock, p. m. Present: Senators Myers (acting chairman), Lane, FaU, Page, and Townsend. The Acting Chairman (Senator Myers) . The first matter to be taken up is the Montana reclamation matter, item No. 72. Senator Page. That is a matter of such immense importance that I think there should be more Senators here to consider it. Suppose we take up the miscellaneous items. We had that item for suppressing the hquor traffic among the Indians, and Senator Lane, you were going to suggest an amendment ? Have you provided it ? Senator Lane. The amendment I was going to suggest was to make it apply to whisky or spirituous or malted liquors, and to opium and its derivatives, and to cocaine. I think that is principally what you want to cover, that and peyote, but we threw peyote out. Mr. Meritt. We are asking for some general legislation regarding the suppression of the liquor traffic among the Indians, and in view oi the attitude of the committee on peyote we will defer submitting that, amendment to this item at this time, but will wait until the general legislation comes up, which is now m course of preparation. INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. 213 The Acting Chairman. Do you want to begin on the irrigation system at Milk River, item No. 73, where we left off? Senator Lane. I think other Senators ought to be here when we are considering that. MODOO POINT IRRIGATION SYSTEM, KLAMATH INDIAN RESERVATION. Senator Page. We have passed down under the head of irrigation items to the Modoc Point irrigation item. That is item No. 132, page 49 of the printed biU. I move we take that up now. The Acting Cecairman. The only reason T wanted to take this other item up, Senator, is that Mr. Newell is here to appear for it. I do not want to hold him any longer than is necessary. Senator Page. Are you ready. Senator Lane, to teU us about that Modoc Point item ? Senator Lane. I have been around Modoc Point, I think, before they started to put in an irrigation system there. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, we have already constructed an irriga- tion system on that reservation, and this is simply for the purpose of extending laterals and for repair work. Senator Lane There has been some complaint against it made by the Indians. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, the justification for this item is found on page 616 of the House hearings. Senator Lane. The Indians protested about that to me because they said the whole reservation was mortgaged for that expense, and it only served a portion of the reservation on one side of the lake. Mr. Meritt. We are correcting that in our general item, which will be found beginning with page 2 of the bill. The proviso to the clause on page 4 reads as follows: Provided further, That the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized and directed to apportion the cost of any irrigation project constructed for Indians and made reim- bursable out of tribal funds of said Indians in accordance with the benefits received by each individual Indian so far as practicable from said irrigation project, said cost to be apportioned against such individual Indian under such rules, regulations, and conditions as the Secretary of the Interior may prescribe. Senator Lane. That will cure this? Mr. Meritt. That legislation will cure that complaint. Senator Page. We have spent $175,000 putting this in, and it seems to me we ought to go on. I move that we approve this item. (The item was agreed to.) IRRIGATION SYSTEM, UINTAH RESERVATION, UTAH. The Chairman. The next item is on page 56 of the bill: For continuing the construction of lateral distributing systems to irrigate the allotted lands of the Uncompahgre, Uintah, and White River tJtes, in Utah, and to maintain existing irrigation systems, authorized under the act of June 21, 1906, to be e;Kpended under the terms thereof and reimbursable as therein provided, $10,000, to remain available until expended . Mr. Meritt. This item is justified on page 658 of the House hearings. Mr. Chairman. This is a project that has already been practically completed. Senator Page. They have allowed you $10,000, and you have asked for $40,000 ? 214 INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. We asked for $40,000 and the House cut the estimate to $10,000. That was done because there was an unexpended bal- ance on that reservation as shown by the statement of more than $100,000. In view of that showing of unexpended balance, we will be satisfied with the amoimt allowed by the House. Senator Lane. You have spent $800,000 for that already, have you not ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, this is ai case. Senator, where we have gone ahead and constructed for the benefit of the Indians a rather large and expensive irrigation project that will irrigate about 90,000 acres of land. Senator Lane. How much have they irrigated and worked ? Mr. Meritt. They have an irrigated area of about 13,000 acres at this time. The number of acres cultivated by the Indians is 6,000, and the acres cultivated by the whites, 6,984. Senator Lane. It is just as much for the whites, then, as it is for the Indians, is it not ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Congress has extended to this project the laws of the State of Utah, and unless the Indians make beneficial use of this water by 1919 they will have some difficulty in retaining their water rights. Senator Lane. Is it reimbursable ? Mr. Meritt. This is a reimbursable item payable out of the tribal funds. Senator Lane. And stiU they lose their rights? Mr. Meritt. We are attempting now to get legislation in this item that wiU protect the rights of those Indians. Senator Lane. Can you do it, do you think ? Mr. Meritt. We think we can. If we get the legislation we have asked for we think we can protect their water rights. Senator Page. Mr. Chairman, I move that we allow $10,000 instead of $40,000. Senator Lane. Wait a moment. I want to find out about this. There are so many acres cultivated by the Indians. How is that cultivated and what is it put into? How many acres are actually cultivated ? Is there 6,000 acres ? What do they raise on those ? Mr. Meritt. That is principally a grain country. Senator Lane. Do they raise 6,000 acres of grain and vegetables? Mr. Meritt. That is in accordance with our statement there. Senator Lane. Does anybody know definitely whether they do or not? Mr. MeIiitt. I think that statement is correct. Senator Lane. They have 90,000 acres, you say ? Mr. Meritt. They have about 90,000 acres of u^rigable land. Senator Lane. And we spent $600,000 of their money ; Senator Page. $744,000. • >, Senator Lane. $744,000. And for that expenditure we have 6,000 acres in cultivation by the Indians and fully aS much by the whites, but the Indians are liable to lose all of their rights if they do not make use of it by 1919 ? , '' Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Page. That is five years hence. Mr. Meritt. I want to caU your attention to the legislation that was passed by Congress. After this project had been started, there INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. 215 was an item passed in one of the Indian appropriation bills that extended the water-right laws of the State of Utah to this project. Had the department been watching out carefully for the interests of the Indians thev would have made strenuous efforts to have pre- vented this legislation from passing. In order to correct that defect, we are asking for this proviso in the bill : Provided, That the use of so much water as may be necessary to supply for domestic, stock watering, and irrigation purposes land allotted or to be allotted to Indians on the Uintah Reservation or set aside for domestic purposes within said reservation is hereby reserved, and the failure of any individual Indian or Indians to make bene- ficial use of such water shall not operate in any manner to defeat his or her right thereto while said land is held in trust by the United States. All laws and parts of laws in conflict herewith are hereby repealed. Senator Lane. Of these 90,000 acres there are 13,000 acres being used now ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. The whites are using more than the Indians, the Indian land is mortgaged for it, and when he loses it it will go to the State, and then the whites will get it ? Mr. Meritt. If we can not get this legislation enacted, and if they can not make beneficial use of the land the water rights will go to the white appropriators. Senator Lane. And they will get half the benefit of this anyway? Will the lands of the whites be mortgaged for the cost of this ? Mr. Meritt. This project has been constructed out of Indian funds. It is a reimbursable appropriation, and their lands will be held respon- sible for this appropriation. Senator Lane. The Indians would have done better if the Govern- ment had gone out there and started a faro bank — ^if they had dealt on the square. Mr. Meritt. I think it is unfortunate that this project was started at that time. Senator Lane. How long ago was it ? Mr Meritt. The project was started under the act of June 21, 1906. Senator Lane. Do you know how many Indians are making use of it ? Mr. Meritt. There are about 1,200 Indians on this reservation. Senator Lane. How many are actually using it for farming? Mr. Meritt. I could not tell you the exact number. Senator Lane. About how many? Mr. Meritt. About 150. Senator, we are asking for legislation in our industrial items so that we can get funds which are now deposited to the credit of these Indians in the Treasury, and if we can get that appropriation which has already been allowed by this committee and the money is now in the Treasury to their credit, those Indians wiH be furnished farming equipment and they can go ahead and make benefi- cial use of their land. Senator Lane. Have they ever been furnished farmmg equipment before ? Mr. Meritt. No, they have not. , ., ^. . Senator Lane. I find in this place in Utah, Mr. Chairman, where they have spent something like $700,000 of the Indians' money to irrigate their land, and there is 6,000 acres being cultivated by the Indians at this time, and not a dollar appropriated to give them tools with which to cultivate it, and if the Indians do not take advantage 216 INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. of their water rights by 1919, five years from now, they will lose all of their water rights. Senator Myers. They ought to have more than they are asking for. Senator Lane. There will be $800,000 or $900,000 of their money gone. I think we certainly ought to give them all they are asking for. Senator Page. I move that we allow the sum which the Conomis- sioner says he thinks they need. Senator Lane. I want to thrash these items out as we go along, because these are matters of interest. The Indians are complaining about their money and their rights. We are hearing complaints of ' their poverty and their health, and are now estabhshing hospitals for them. We are spending about $11,000,000 each year of their money, and I think this is a very typical instance of the manner in which the trusteeship has been handled. Senator Page. Do you remember that old adage about locking the stable after the horse has been stolen ? Senator Lane. That is right. I know of that old adage, but if you never lock it, and have something left in it, you will lose the balance of it. If you keep going along the way we are going, I think it will all soon go. Senator Page. The commissioner is trying to prevent the taking of this land from the Indians by legislation. Senator -Lane. I want to ask you. Senator Page, as you have been on the committee before, if you knew this condition existed in rela- tion to the expenditure of this money ? Senator Page. There has been brought to me, more scandal, or assumed scandal, in regard to the irrigation matters than anything else. Senator Lane. Did you laiow about this before? Senator Page. No, Senator Lane. You have been voting appropriations until you have appropriated about $700,000 of these people's money without knowing anything about it ? x Senator Page. They were started in 1906, before I came here. Senator Lane. But it continued last year and the year before when you were here, did it not? Senator Page. I think we ought to continue the appropriation this year. The commissioner says we ought to have it in order to prevent the land going back. Senator Lane. Let them have the money they need; but we ought to know the facts about what we are doing, because I think you will find this condition is not singular. Senator Page. Senator Myers is here to speak for himself; but in regard to the Montana item, the Indians claim that is not an agri- cultural country, and they claim there is a great mistake made in trying to irrigate that land, and paying out so much of their money for it. Both Senators Dixon and Myers, however, were unqualified in their assurance to us that the proper thing to do was to appropriate more than a million dollars. Senator Myers. I do not remember any Indians claiming that this was not a good agricultural country. I was not here yesterday. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 217 Senator Page. It has been claimed right along that those irrigation matters Senator Myers. Do they want to drop these irrigation projects in Montana ? Senator Page. Their claim is this, that we have without their con- sent, without their approval Senator Lane. And against their protest. Senator Page. That we have come here and made appropriations reimbursable, and that we have been robbing them. Senator Myers. I do not think we have been robbing them at all. The money all goes back to them. A whole lot of it has gone back. Senator Lane. I do not think it has been stated to you so that you will appreciate how it came about. They claim they were opposed to it in the first place, the spending of their money for irrigation pur- poses, for the reason that they thought the country was grazing coim- try, that they had frosts there every year, and there was not enough good irrigable farm land on this reservation to justify the expenditure. Senator Myers. Flathead is highly irrigable and agricultural. Senator Lane. I am talking about the Blackfeet Reservation. Senator Myers. I do not know so much about Blackfeet. TAt this point the chairman entered and took the chair. ^ Senator Lane. They claim in addition to that Congress passed a law by which it fixed the price for the sale of their irrigated lands at SIO an acre, and that nonirrigable lands are worth more than that now, and irrigable' lands, if they are worth anything, are worth three or four times that much, and perhaps more tnan that, and that it is a rank injustice to them, and if they tell the truth it is. Senator Myers. I do not think it would apply to the Flathead Reservation. They have started in on a big irrigation project there, and have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, and I think it ought to be completed. Senator Page. Is it not true that we have spent it without con- ferring with theml The Indians come here and say, ''We have not asked that." Senator Myers. I do not think any Flathead Indians have ever come here and opposed that reclamation work. There are none of which I know. Do you know of any, Mr. Meritt ? Mr. Meritt. We nave had complaints on account of the method of financing. Senator Myers. Just the method. They are not opposed to go- ing ahead with the project, are they? Mr. Meritt. They are not opposed to going ahead with the pro- ject providing it can be financed on an equitable basis. Senator Myers. This has already been started on. It is a closed incident now. It is a law of the United States, and the project ought to go ahead. Senator Lane. It ought to be repealed. The Chairman. I should like to ask a question about the item under consideration. The House approved this act of $10,000 ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How much more money will be necessary to com- plete this project? Mr. Meritt. The project is practically complete now, and this ap- propriation will be used largely for the construction of laterals and maintenance. 218 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. The Chairman. How much will be the total cost of the project when this shall have been appropriated ? Senator Page. $754,000. Senator Lane. Nearly $800,000. The Chairman. In round numbers, $800,000. How many acres will that irrigate ? Mr. Meritt. That will irrigate 90,000 acres. The Chairman. What steps do the Indians have to take to get unquestionable title to their land ? Mr. Meritt. They have unquestionable title to their lands, but Congress by the act of June 21, 1906, found in 34 Statutes at Large, page 375, extended to this reservation the State laws regarding the ^ water rights of the Indians, and the Indians must make beneficial use of their water in order to hold their water rights. The Chairman. They must make permanent beneficial use— per- petual beneficial use ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Indians have been allotted land under a trust patent of 25 years. The Government did not beHeve they were competent to have a fee title to this land, yet Congress by the act of June 21, 1906, placed them on the same footing as the white people in that community in regard to water rights, and unless they do as well as the white people in that community they will lose their water rights, and their land is valueless without the water. Senator Lane. And in addition to that, the Government is not giving them a dollar to purchase agricultural implements, or to do anything of that sort with the land. The Chairman. That is a serious question so far as my individual position is concerned. For that reason, out in Arizona, in our Western States, we have a law which provides that anybody may go upon the public domain and locate water, and it is a vahd location so long as he turns the water to a beneficial use. That is a good law, so far as the white men are concerned, the Americans, but to apply that to an Indian is unjust, because misfortune, disease, or anything of that sort will prevent the Indian from turning the water to a beneficial use for a great many years. It seems to me we ought to guard in such a way these irrigation projects which we construct that no lapse of any kind on the part of the Indian shall preclude him from gettmg water hereafter. It seems to me we ought to do that. Mr. Meritt. We have tried to bring about that condition by an amendment to this item which we have proposed. The Chairman. Where is that ? : Mr. Meritt. That was contained in our estimates, but was omitted from the House biU. We should like to have this item inserted on page 56, after the word ''expended" in line 9. The item reads as follows : ! i Provided, That the use of so much water as may be necessary to supply for domestic, Btock-"watering, and irrigation purposes land allotted or to be allotted to Indians on the Uintah Reservation or set aside for administrative purposes within said reservation is hereby reserved, and the failure of any individual Indian or Indians to make bene- ficial use of such water shall not operate in any manner to defeat his or her right thereto while said land is held in trust by the United States. All laws 9,nd parts of laws in conflict herewith are hereby repealed. The Chairman. If you will pardon me for making a suggestion, I will say that is a very salutary amendment. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 219 Senator Page. You may have to fight that out in conference. I move that amendment be made in accordance with the suggestion of Mr. Meritt. The Chairman. The question is on the motion of the Senator from Vermont, that, the language just read by Mr. Meritt be adopted and made a part of the bill, to be put in the bill after the word ' ^expended," line 9, page 56. Senator Lane. Unless I have an assurance that that would become the law I wish to protest against the expenditure of any money there. I shall not vote to put any more of the Indians' money there; unless you can protect them, you are wasting this. The Chairman. If I should be one of the conferees — I know that Senator Myers will be — if I should be one of the conferees I promise this committee I will contest to the last not onlj for this one provision but for aU provisions of a similar nature which will secure to the Indian the right to the water on these irrigation projects, without regard to whether he is guilty of any lapses or not. That is as far as I can say. (The motion of the Senator from Vermont (Mr. Page) was agreed to.) Senator Page. I move that we make the appropriation $10,000, as asked for by the House and by the commissioner also. The Chairman. The question is on the adoption of the motion of the Senator from Vermont, so that the appropriation shall be $10,000 instead of $40,000. (The motion was agreed to.) Mr. Meritt. I have prepared a memorandum on the Uintah project which I should like to have incorporated in the record. The Chairman. That may be incorporated. (The memorandum reads as follows :) January 2, 1913. Memorandum for Secretary Fisher. In compliance with your recent request for a memorandum on the legal phases of the water-right question on the Uintah Reservation, Utah, your attention is invited to the provision of the act of June 21, 1906 (34 Stat. L., 325, 375), which reads: "For constructing irrigation systems to irrigate the allotted lands of the Uncom- pahgre, Uintah, and White River Utes in Utah, the Limit of cost of which is hereby fixed at $600,000, $125,000 of which shall be immediately available, the cost of said entire work to be reimbursed from the proceeds of the sale of the lands within the former Uintah Reservation: Provided, That such irrigation systems shall be con- structed and completed and held and operated, and water therefor appropriated under the laws of the State of Utah, and the title thereto until otherwise provided by law shall be in the Secretary of the Interior in trust for the Indians, and he may sue and be sued in matters relating thereto: And' provided further, That the ditches and canals of such irrigation systems may be used, extended, or enlarged for the purpose of con- veying water by- any person, association, or corporation under and upon compliance withthe provisions' of the laws of the State of Utah; And provided further, That when eiaid irrigation systems are in successful operation the cost of operating same shall be" equitably apportioned upon the lands irrigated, and, when the Indians have become self-supporting, to the annual charge shall be added an amount sufficient to pay back into the Treasury the cost of the work done, in their behalf, within 30 ye£^^, suitable deduction being made for the amounts received from disposal of the land^ within the former Uintah Reservation." , . . . It will be seen from the foregoing provision of law that the water for irrigatmg Indian lands within this irrigation project is required to be appropriated under the laws of the State of Utah. , . , . . t i i There was expended on construction for theUmtah irrigation project up to July r, 1911, $652,256.79. There was appropriated in the act of August 24, 1912, $75,000 for continuing the construction of lateral distributing systems to irrigate allotted 220 INDIAN APPROPRIATION 3ILL. Indian lands within this project. The Indian bill as reported to the House carries an appropriation of $50,000 lor continuing this work. It is estimated that it will require an additional appropriation of about $50,000 to complete the lateral systems for this project, and thereafter an annual appropriation for maintenance. It will be seen that the Government has already appropriated more than $700,000 for this project, and it will cost altogether more than $800,000 to complete it; and this entire amount is to be reimbursed bj^ the Indians. The time within which beneficial use is required to be made of the waters on the allotted Indian lands has been extended by the State engineer to December 1, 1919. It is understood, however, that the Government will be required to exercise due diligence in making beneficial use of the water, and that a proportionate amount of irrigable lands will be required to be made beneficial use of each year. The following provision is found in the Utah Code for 19II : "That the State engineer shall have power, for good cause shown, to extend the time for completion of construction or for application to a beneficial use, but in no case shall extensions of time be made that would place the date of proof of com- pletion of construction and the proof of beneficial use more than 14 years from the date of approval, except that the State engineer shall allow extensions of time during which work was prevented by the operation of law beyond the power of said applicant to avoid . ' ' The Supreme Court, in the case of Winters v. United States (207 U. S., 564), has said that — "The power of the Government to reserve waters and exempt them from appro- priation under the State laws is not denied, and could not be." The Supreme Court, however, in the Lone Wolf case (187 U. S., 553) used the fol- lowing language : ^ - ' ' The power exists to abrogate the provisions of an Indian treaty, though presum- ably such power will be exercised only when circumstances arise which will not only justify the Government in disregarding the stipulations of the treaty, but may demand, in the interest of the country and the Indians themselves, that it should do so. When, therefore, treaties were entered into between the United States and a tribe of Indians it was never doubted that the power to abrogate existed in Con- gress, and that in a contingency such power might be availed of from considerations of governmental policy, particularly if consistent with perfect good faith toward the Indians." It is apparent, therefore, that in view of the decision of the Supreme Court in the Lone Wolf case, supra, and the act of Congress of June 21, 1906, supra, requiring the waters on this reservation to be appropriated under the laws of the State of Utah, that the favorable decision in the Winers case has been practically nullified by the act of Congress in question in so far as the principles announced in that decision would apply to the Uiutah Irrigation Project. I am of the opinion, therefore, that it is necessary, if the rights of the Uintah Indians are to be protected, that beneficial use be made of the waters on the allotted lands of said Indians, in accordance with the State laws. In this connection attention is invited to the inclosed copy of a report prepared by this office submitting a draft of proposed legislation, entitled "A bill to protect and conserve the water rights of Indians," This proposed legislation was transmitted to the department with the report prepared by this office on December 19, 1911, and no action appears to have been taken thereon. Attention is also invited to the memo- randum herewith, dated November 17, 1911, regarding water rights of Indians, In view of the provisions of the act of June 21, 1906, supra, making beneficial use of the waters of the Uintah irrigation project subject to the laws of the State of Utah, it is imperative, if the rights of the Indians are to be protected, that beneficial use be made of the waters sufficient to irrigate the allotted Indian lands on the Uintah Reser- vation within the time required under the State laws, and this should be done even if it becomes necessary to lease the land of the Indians for a number of years at a nominal rental. Ver> respectfully, E. B. Meritt, Law Clerk. Senator Page. Senator Myers has asked that we go back to the Montana items, which means that we go back to No. 73. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 221 IRRIGATION SYSTEM, MILK RIVER, FORT BELKNAP, MONT. The Chairman. The next item, then, is on page 29, beginning in line 1 1 , as follows : For maintenance and operation, including repiairs, of the Milk River irrigation eysteni on the Fort Belknap Reservation, in Montana, reimbursable in accordance with t^ provisions of the Act of April fourth, nineteen hundred and ten, $25,000. The amount appropriated by the House is $20,000. The item is referred to on page 442 of the House hearings. Senator Myers. I see that $25,000 is estimated for, and $20,000 was granted by the House, and $15,000 paid last year. Mr. Meritt, what do you have to say about the estimate of $25,000. Do you consider it necessary ? Mr. Meritt. We should hke to have our estimate allowed on this item. The project has been constructed for some time and the wooden structures need repairs very much, and the full $25,000 requested is actually needed on this reservation. Senator Lane. Is this the item where 7,670 acres were cultivated by the Indians, one-half of which was in wild hay ? Mr. Meritt. We have on this reservation 7,670 acres, cultivated by the Indians, according to the statement here. Senator Lane. I think some one said on inquiry yesterday that about half of that was in wild grass, that they cut hay upon it, and they called that cultivation. Senator Myers. Mr. Newell, have you anything to say on that Milk River system ? Mr. Newell. No, sir. I have been over the area, but we have had nothing to do with it directly. Senator Myers. That has not come under you as yet? Mr. Newell. No. Mr. Meritt. We have Mr. Reed, our irrigation man, present. Senator Myers. I should like to hear from Mr. Reed, then. Mr. Reed. This system has about 7,830 acres in cultivation, or at least under irrigation, to be used for hay land. The system was com- Eleted, or practically completed, seme years ago, but there has not een complete use made of it, but it has built up with a growth of trees, smaU brush, and some of the older structures have decayed. It is necessary to bring those back to a state of repair. According to our estimates, the best we 'can make after examining the ground, to appropriate the $25,000 as requested, which will put it so that we can continue to irrigate what has been irrigated, increase our irrigation some, and at the present time prevent further deterioration of the structures and ditches. Senator Lane. How much has been expended on this project altogether ? Mr. Reed. The expenditure to June 30, 1913, was $200,500.72. Senator Lane. And they have an irrigated area of 7,830 acres ? Mr. Reed. That is the area that is irrigated. There is irrigable at the present time practically 22,000 acres. Senator Lane. How much more would it take to complete the project? ,. Mr. Reed. The project, so far as the main features are concerned^ is completed. It has deteriorated to a considerable extent, and a 222 INDIAN" APPROPRIATION BILL. larffe part of the money we are asking, this $25,000, is for maintenance and not for new work — just to maintain and operate. Senator Lane. Have these Indians been furnished means with which to cultivate their land, such as plows, harrows, and horses ? Mr. Reed. Not to the extent that they should, perhaps, but they have some implements, and have done some work. Senator Lane. What proportion of them have complete outfits so that they can do farming work upon their lands ? Mr. Reed. I would not say that any of them have, perhaps, a com- plete outfit. They use the community system there a good deal. They have tools and farm implements that they move around among a few, like the old-time swapping. Senator Lane. There is not enough for everbody to do plowing and put in their work and finish it up in good shape ? Senator Fall. I supposed that the necessities of these Indians in that matter had been looked out for. Mr. Meritt. We have not asked for a specific appropriation for these Indians, but have asked for a general item of $100,000, which would be available for these Indians. Senator Lane. I should like to inquire if $100,000 will provide for the necessities of these Indians and all the others who are working under irrigation systems, in the way of outfitting them with farming implements, to do a reasonable amount of farming 1 Mr. Meritt. No, sir; we have not asked for a specific item on all these reservations, but we have asked for a general item to cover this. Senator Lane. Enough to cover thei;r needs ? Mr. Meritt. We have asked for $100,000 on Fort Peck, $100,000 on Blackfeet, and $100,000 on Flathead, and wherever we have irrigation projects Senator Lane. On this ? Mi\ Meritt. No, we have not asked for a specific appropriation for this because those Indians already have a reimbursable fund they can use, and we can also supplement that out of this $100,000 general item. Senator Lane. Are you going to do that ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Did you do it last year ? Mr. Meritt. I was not in charge last year. Senator Lane. Did thy do that last year, the year before, or the year before that? Mr. Meritt. The industrial situation on that reservation, Senator, is not what it should be. Senator Lane. I am told not. Ml'. Meritt. We realize that fact. Those Indians are not getting along industrially as well as they should. We hope to improve those conditions. Whether we are successful or not will be demonstrated by future work. Senator Fall. Those items are provided for? Senator Lane. I think that will do it. Senator Page. I see they have a population of 1,183. That means how many f amifies — 500 ? Mr. Meritt. No, that means between three and four hundred families. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 223 Senator Page. For 300 families we have already spent $218,072. Is that not a pretty big expense for so small a population ? Senator Lane. What does it run per family? Did you figure it out ? Senator Page. No, I did not. Senator Lane. Try it and see what it averages — see what this land is costing to irrigate. Mr. Peairs. About $10 an acre. Mr. Meritt. Between $600 and $700 a family. Senator Lane. Ten dollars an acre is not a heavy cost for irriga- tion, but w^ould that complete the project ? Mr. Meritt. That is for the main canals. Senator Page. If that money was being paid by the United States, it seems to me we might have some jurisdiction; but we have given those Indians $700 apiece for this expenditure and it is driving them back into a worthless condition, which is pretty hard. Mr. Meritt. If this were a new project, Senator, I should hesitate to make a recommendation as to the construction of a large irriga- tion project on this reservation, because those Indians are not peculiarly adapted to farming. But the project is already con- structed; the Government has already spent over $200,000 for this project; the project that has already been constructed is in condi- tion so that it can not be used and so the Indians can not get the benefit of the money which has already been expended; for that reason I beheve we should have our estimate on this item. Senator Townsend. Why has that irrigation project been allowed to deteriorate? Mr. Meritt. I could not tell you that. Senator, not having been in charge of the oflice. Senator Townsend. Is there any assurance they are ever going to use it any more in the future than they have in the past ? Mr. Meritt. We are going to endeavor very hard to get the Indians to make beneficial use of the lands under irrigation projects. We have submitted to Congress this year a detailed constructive indus- trial program which this committee has allowed, and if those items are retained in the Indian bill as finally passed, I beheve we will be able to get the Indians to farm more lands than they have ever farmed before, and that they will begin to make beneficial use of these large irrigation projects. In my judgment the projects have been constructed too far in advance of the Indians' actual needs. The projects, however, have been constructed and the Indians have been allotted lands without equipping the Indians so that they could utilize those irrigable lands. Senator Townsend. The bill provides $20,000; that passed the House; and you are asking for $5,000 more. As I understand, Mr. Reed, this proposition, this money, is to be expended largely for improving or reviving an existing condition up there ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Are you satisfied that $20,000 will not do aU the work you need to do in order to get those Indians, whom you say are not inclined to farming— to get them to use the land under water ? Mr. Meritt. Our irrigation engineers have represented that it will require $25,000 for this work, but if the committee will allow us only $20,000, we wiU do the best we can with the amount allowed. 224 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. Senator Townsend. What would you do if you had only $20,000 ? Could you accomplish any benefit to the Indians with the $20,000 ? Mr. Meritt. We can put that project into condition so that the Indians can get some benefit from it, and if that project is not im^ proved it wifl ultimately be in a condition where the Indians will receive no benefit from it because the construction work is of wood, and that wood has deteriorated and needs to be replaced. Senator Townsend. What proportion of the Indians now, Mr. Meritt, are using the water ? Mr. Meritt. The Indians are ultizing water sufficient to cultivate 7,670 acres. That is the report we have here on page 443 of the hearings. It was brought out yesterday that part of this land, which is represented as cultivated land, is in fact grass land. Our industrial farmer is not here and I am unable to give you definite information upon that subject. Senator Lane. The fact is, is it not, that those Indians are rather stock men, Indians who are used to running stock, and it is very doubtful whether they ever will make a good and beneficial use of this land for farming purposes ? Mr. Meritt. They are primarily stock people. The chmate is so cold and the season so short on the Fort Belknap Reservation that it is difficult to make a success of irrigated land, especially by Indians. Senator Lane. I think that is true. Senator Townsend. I do not feel myself as though we ought to vote any additional appropriation for this particular project under the statement that has been made by the commissioner. If I were sure that putting the $25,000 there was going to result in benefit to those Indians, and that the project they were developing or improving was going to make that much difference to the Indians, I would not hesti- tate to vote for it; but I do not believe under the statements that have been made here that this committee would be warranted in voting more than the House appropriated for this particular item. Senator Page. He does not ask for any more. Senator Townsend. I thought he said $25,000? Senator Pare. He said he would be content with the $20,000 and do the best he could with it. The Chairman. Is there a motion ? Senator Townsend. I move that the item be allowed as $20,000. Senator Page. I second the motion. (The motion was agreed to.) IRRIGATION systems, FLATHEAD RESERVATION, MONT. The Chairman. The next item is No. 74 on page 29 of the printed bill, page 445 of the hearings, irrigation systems, Flathead Reserva- tion, Mont., $100,000. Senator Myers. With regard to that I wish to have something to say. That is one of the greatest and most extensive reclamation projects in the United States. Congress has passed a law authorizing it and has embarked upon it and considerable progress has been made. It is for the benefit of the Indians as well as the white settlers, each; It is estimated that it is to cost $6,000,000 when completed. I believe that about one and one-quarter or one and one-half millions have been appropriated and spent so far. This is all reimbursable;; INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. 225 We are not asking for any donation appropriation. It is all reim- bursable and the security is there to pay it; the land and timber and the assets are worth the money. I claim and have always claimed that before we appropriate for that and the more rapidly we finish this thing, the sooner will the Indians get back their money and the better for aU concerned. I do not believe that we ought to dole it out in small appropriations year after year. Congress has been appropriating of reimbursable funds for that project for a number of years all the way from $200,000 to $400,000 per year. The lowest that has ever been appropriated was $200,000 and one year $400,000, and generally somewhere be- tween $300,000 and $400,000. Last year it was $325,000. Senator Page. That is right. That was done at your earnest so- licitation. Senator Myers. Yes ; and I am urging again this year, Senator, and I think there should be an appropriation of $400,000 Senator Page. To interrupt you right at that point. The records here show that we have spent $1,214,561 on tins project and that there are now cultivated by the Indians only 1,088 acres. Senator Myers. The Indians do not cultivate their land as a rule, but we hope to encourage them to do so much more in the futiu-e. A great part of this money has been necessarily spent so fur in digging the main ditches and getting the project started, and they have not gotten very far yet in putting in the lateral ditches and conveying the water onto the land, but I understand that with this year's appropriation they can do a great deal of that and cover a great deal 01 land. It is imder the Reclamation Service and I want you to hear from Mr. NeweU in a moment. He will make the main talk. My remarks are only prehminary. I shall also want you to hear from Mr. Meritt and Mr. Reed. Senator Lane. I notice on this statement, page 446 of the hearings, that while the Indians only cultivated 1,088 acres, the whites culti- vated 2,278 acres; a httle more than twice as much as the Indians. That would indicate that this appropriation was used more in the interest of the whites than for the Indians. Senator Myers. The more the whites are able to pay for their land and pay it back into the Government the sooner the Indians will get it back into their fund. We have got to get the money out of the whites; the Indians do not pay for any of this. Senator Page. The point I want to make, you emphasized the fact that we are not giving any money; we are simply loaning the money on perfectly good security ? Senator Myers. Certainly. Senator Page. The Indians have come here and said: ''We do not want to borrow ; that you are robbing us because you are placing us under a heavy load of debt and not doing us any good." Senator Townsend. Have you ever tried to study out sonie scheme whereby the whites will pay for this in the first instance, inasmuch as they get the benefit, instead of allowing the Indians' money to do all of the work, with the major portion of the benefits going to the white men ? Senator Myers. The whites are to pay for it all, as I understand, Senator Townsend. The Indians pay for nothing. 39746— PT 1—14 15 226 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. Senator Lane. The Indians pay for it all; the whites pay nothing. Senator Myers. Does the putting of the water on the lands Mr. Keed. It costs the Indian fund, the way it stands to-day, the full amount. Senator Myers. Are they not to get it back, Mr. Reed? Mr. Reed. From whom ? Senator Myers. From the payment for lands by the white settlers ? Mr. Reed. It is not there, Senator. Senator Myers. What is not there? Mr. Reed. The idea is this. There are about 150,000 to 152,000 acres in that project, which is almost equally divided, 75,000 acres, I believe, to the Indians and 77,000 to the whites. At the present* time the Indians' tribal funds — that is, excess lands and his timber — are practically hypothecated for the money used in the construction of the project. The white man pays back under the proper rules and regulations, his pro rata; that is, he would pay of the total 77,000 acres, if we assume there are 152,000 acres, -^^, and the Indians -^^ and that is charged against the tribal funds ; that is, against the tribal interests and property which consists of land and timber. That is the way it would stand under the present arrangement. Senator Fall. Then of this total amount of $100,000 which is allowed here, the Indians are responsible for the return of the entire amount, but are compelled to return 50 per cent of it, and the white people are only to pay back 50 per cent ? Mr. Reed. To pay back their pro rata per acre; yes, sir. Senator Fall. But the Indians' property is security for the whole $100,000 debt; then if the white man pays $50,000 then the Indians will only have to pay $50,000, but they are responsible for the whole ? Mr. Reed. In the meantime; yes, sir. Senator Lane. They stand sponsor for it and put up the security, while the other men go m and start business ? Senator Townsend. Last year you got $325,000 ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Butthe department only expended $118,000 of the am.ount appropriated? Senator Myers. They are to run on that up to the 1st of July, as I understand. Is that not correct, Mr. Newell? Senator Townsend. This appropriation was made up to June 30. Mr. Newell. Up to June 30 it will be expended this spring. That is to say, the appropriation was made so late last year, I think, that we couid not use all of it during the last calendar year. Senator Myers. They started late last year? Senator Townsend. The appropriation was made for the year ending June 30, 1914. Mr. Newell. We will have it all spent by that time. Senator Page. May I ask what your position is in connection with that service? Mr. Newell. I am Director of the Reclamation Service ? Senator Page. Do you think it is right for the United States Government to place a mortgage upon the Indian lands for $1,214,000 to carry out this project without any sort of guaranty that they will eventually get it back ? Mr. Newell. I do not want to criticize an act of Congress, but all land irrigated, whether for the whites or Indians, should be responsi- INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 227 ble for the payment of that amount. Of course, I think the law can be improved, as any law can, but all the whites' lands and the Indians' lands are responsible for is the pro rata cost of this work. Senator Myers. I will ask Mr. Newell to make his statement now about the matter. I yield the floor. STATEMENT OF MR. FREDERICK H. NEWELL, DIRECTOR, RECLAMATION SERVICE, WASHINGTON, D. C. Senator Lane. I want to ask Mr. Newell a question, and it is this: Is it not a fact that the allotments made upon those lands to be irri- gated for the expense of which the holdings of the Indians are to be held responsible, that nearly all of the irrigible land, and that which will be benefited by irrigation, has gone into the possession of the whites and that the allotments of the Indians have been made upon dry land where there can not be any irrigation? Mr. Newell. No, sir; m the allotments, and I am very familiar with this — Senator Lane. Let me read this before you go any further in connection with that. Here is a statement made last year on page 193 of the Indian appropriation bill hearings: The Chairman, How many Indians are there at the Flathead Agency? Commissioner Abbott. About 2,000. The Chairman. Entitled to enrollment? Commissioner Abbott. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Is it expected that the 2,000 allotments would be made out of the 75,000 acres, in round numbers, of irrigable land after deducting the 70,000 taken by the white people? Commissioner Abbott. There is not enough irrigable land to allot to the Indiana alone. The Chairman. Is there enough to allot half of them? Commissioner Abbott. Yes, sir; there is enough to allot more than half of them. The Chairman. Approximately half? Commissioner Abbott. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Where is the other half to go? Commissioner Abbott. They have already selected their allotments on the high land. The Chairman. On the dry land? Commissioner Abbott. On the dry land. The Chairman. And these are lands that you say, or Senator Myers did, the Indians could not make a living on? Commissioner Abbott. He could not make a living farming on these lands. If he had a large enough family, and grouped enough of their allotments together to establish a live-stock ranch, he could make a living in that way. Senator Myers. He was not limited to 80 acres of dry land on the hills, was he? Commissioner Abbott. No; 160 acres of dry land. The Chairman. He must make a living in grazing on the 160 acres of land? Mr. Newell. Is that the Flathead? ": Senator Lane. Yes, sir. Mr. Newell. There must be some mistake in the statement, because the facts are these: The lands were first allotted to the Indians; the choicest land in the reservation was first allotted to the Indians, in reference to the ease of irrigation; next the irrigable lands in due course of law were thrown open and entered to the whites. Appropriations were made year after year, as Senator Myers stated, and those appropriations have been devoted almost exclusively to irrigating the Indian lands, which are the choicest on that reserva- tion. I can testify from having gone over it for many years. At the 228 INDIAN APPBOPEIATION BILL. same time the whites have gone on there and purchased that land at appraised value. Senator Lane. What is that appraised value ? 1,1. Mr. Newell. $4 to $7 an acre, I think. They did that with the knowledge and behef that those lands were to be irrigated m the way proposed by Congress. There are hterally hundreds, if not thousands, of settlers living there behevmg thoroughly that Congress will con- struct a complete irrigation system, not only to the Indian lands, but to their lands, and we have had most pitiable requests, and such requests have doubtless come to you, to expedite the extension of those lands to take in more of the white lands. The question has been asked why so httle cf the Indian land has^ been irrigated. It is, in the first place, because the water has not been available for very long, and second, the fundamental effect of all irrigation is naturally to accumulate irrigable land allotments to the Indians. If we allot, for instance, 40 acres per capita, that would mean for a family of four or ^ve 160 or 200 acres of irrigable land, and that is t->o much for any man to handle economically. If an Indian handles two or three^ acres in good shape, he is doing pretty weU the first year. I cou] J give you cases, perhaps extreme cases, of Indians that have been allotted up to 500, 600, or 1,000 acres, French-Canadians with large famihes, and I know particularly one man, a driver for me, earning $1.50 to $2 a day, is controlling irrigated or irrigable laiids to the extent of nearly 1,000 acres, worth perhaps $100,000 or more. He simply has not money enough to cultivate one acre. He is land poor. That is an extreme case. But the system, as before stated, has been laid out. The country is one of the most productive in the West. The Indians are taking hold of small tracts according to their means. They are irrigating, and next year wiU irrigate more, and we hope to extend that to more Indian lands and to more whites, because as you see, under the system of allotment that has been pursued, only a few Indians can participate in the benefit of that investment. Senator Townsend. Was there a man by the name of Savage con- nected with your department ? Mr. Newell. Yes, sir; H. M. Savage is a supervising engineer in charge of the northern division. Senator Townsend. I remember he was before the committee last year, and he was very eloquent, too — and I do not mean that with any disrespect — he impressed upon us the necessity of granting a large appropriation for this particular project on account of the fact that the whites were going to move out of there if they could not get water. Mr. Newell. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Is that condition still maintained there ? Mi\ Newell. They are still moving out, and soon will be compelled to move out. Senator Fall. What are the whites to pay for their water ? Mr. Newell. They are to pay the estimated cost. vSenator Fall. About what does that amount to per acre ? Mr. Newell. About $30 or $40 per acre. It depends on how rap- idly we can build it. Senator Fall. If they move out, however, and do not pay it, the Indians will have to pay this amount which has been expended — the cost is not separable. In other words, for the entire project you esti- INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 229 mate so much money, if the whites do not avail themselves of it and do not come in and pay back their proportion of one-half of the esti- mated cost, then the Indians are saddled with the entire debt ? Mr. Newell. My impression is, Senator, that the water appraise- ment becomes subject to the land — the cost of the water is appraised to the land irrigated. Senator Fall. Then this appropriation should read: "One-half to be reimbursable,'' instead of all reimbursable out of the Indian funds ? Mr. Newell. That is technical. Senator Fall. That would be correct, would it not? It would relieve the Indians of the burden. It is not fair to saddle upon them the burden to pay for a project costing $2,000,000 or $3,000,000 when, their portion only costs one-half of that ? Mr. Newell. Except that they have a reversionary right to these lands if abandoned by the whites, and the water is appraised to them. Of course, either after a man comes in and had taken them up, or the land has been held for the value of the water. Senator Fall. It seems to m.e that one-half of this money ought to be appropriated out of the reclamation fund and not out of the Indian funds. Senator Lane. I wiU ask you, Mr. Newell, if on these valuable irrigated lands, good farming lands, if it is not a fact that these white men that are settling upon the Indians' land have not a lower cost to reclaim their lands than the average white citizen does out in Arizona or Oregon, and if he is not in the additional advantageous position of having everything guaranteed to him; that the work will be carried on at somebody else's expense ? Mr. Newell. If he can get water there. Senator Lane. If he can not make good under those circumstances it must be awfully hard for others on other reclamation schemes ? Mr. Newell. He is making good where he can get water, but we are not giving him water. Senator Lane. What is this land worth after irrigation ? Mr. Newell. I would hardly dare to say. I suppose that irrigated and cultivated, it is worth in alfafa at least $100 to $150 an acre, and in fruit, $500 an acre. Senator Lane. And the Indians get $4 an acre ? Mr. Newell. Raw land, before anything is done with it, $4 to $7 an acre. Senator I^ane. How much is i;aw land uuder a project like that worth, subject to irrigation? Mr. Newell. With a reasonable certainty of getting water it is worth its full appraised value. Senator Lane. $4 an acre? Mr. Newell. $7 an acre. If you can not get water it will be worth practically nothing. Senator Lane. But where you can get water ? Mr. Newell. If there is a reasonable certainty, or if contiguous to lands to which water has been suppHed, I suppose the raw lands would be worth $40 to $50 an acre. I do not think you could buy them to-day for that. Senator Lane. This seems to be pretty generally, as we come to one appropriation after another for some reason or other, a sort of one- sided thing ? 230 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Myers. How one sided? Senator Lane. In this, that the Indian is made to assume aU the responsibihty of setting another man up in business and the Indian takes all the^ chances on whether he is going to succeed or not. Senator Myers. That policy has been embarked upon by Congress; authorized by law, and what are you going to do now ? Are you gomg to stop it? Senator Lane. I do not know. I would favor repealing; it; if any- body will point out to me how to draw such a measure I will put in a bill to repeal it. Senator Fall. How much of this total estimated acreage will be used by the white people, by those outside of Indian allotments? Mr. Newell. Seventy-seven thousand acres. Senator Fall. Seventy-seven thousand acres outside ? Senator Myers. I will ask Mr. Newell to go ahead with his state- ment. I should Uke to have you, Mr. Newell, cover the entire ground and say all you have to say on the subject now. Mr. Newell. As Senator Myers stated, the estimated cost of com- pleting the entire project will be about $6,000,000. Of course the cost will depend on the rate at which the work proceeds. If it pro- ceeds at the rate of $100,000 a year, it wiU require 60 years, and you can obviously see that the cost will run up until it is prohibitory. In other words, if the work is to be done it should be done on an econom- ical basis. We have said thete should be appropriated at least one- half million dollars a year, and in that event it would only take 12 years. But rather than stop the work, of course $250,000 will keep a small organization steadily at work and will bring water to more and more of the Indian reservations. Senator Myers. How much do you think ought to be appropriated ? Mr. Newell. I should say at least $500,000, economically. Senator Myers. I have an amendment reading $500,000. Senator Townsend. Did you help to make this estimate ? Mr. Newell. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. You estimated for $100,000? Mr. Newell. No, sir. Senator Townsend. Who did estimate that $100,000? Did the commissioner ? ;Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Myers. Suppose we let !Mr. Newell make his statement and then let Mr. Meritt make his statement to get it in logical order. I want to call on Mr. Meritt next, following Mr. Newell. Mr. Newell. The estimates we have prepared I think have been about one-half million a year, and that is about the smallest estimated rate at which large work like this can proceed, but because it is neces- sary for us to keep a reasonable equipment, and with a continuing appropriation a moderate amount of this work can be pushed through and finished within the estimates, but with very small appropria- tions, and especially if they are made late in the year when the good season is over, the cost must run up a little higher than it would be if we could proceed at an economical rate. I do not know that I can say anything more. It is probably one of the most meritorious projects and one of the largest in the West. The lands, as I have stated, which have been allotted to the Indians are among the best, and to those we have taken water as far as we INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BILL. 231 could; and the whites are there waiting for the water, which they beheve has been promised by the Government. Senator Page. Do you say to us that you fully justify the project or the methods under which it is conducted, the taking of the Indians' money for this great project and letti^ig him take a chance of loss or gain hereafter ? Mr. Newell. I think he is taking no more chances Senator Fall. He is takins: chances of loss and not of o-ain ? to' Senator Myers. How is he taking any chance ? Senator Page. He has often protested against it. Mr. Newell. I beg pard'ai, I never heard of any protest. Senator Lane. Oh, yes. Senator Page. We have heard protests here within a week. Mr. Newell. Was he really a representative of his people % Senator Page. He said they do iiot like to have their property there encumbered by these large mortgages without being conferred with; without being consulted. It seems to me they ought to be consulted at least before we mortgage their lands as heavily as they are mortgaged now. Senator Myers. There is a gentleman present whom I would Uke to have speak as soon as Mr. Newell is through. Senator Townsend. Let me ask Mr. Newell one or two questions. Last year you had $325,000 appropriated. Up to the time this report was made to Congress you had spent $167,573, a little more than one-haK of it. Is it going to keep you busy to spend the bal- ance of it up to the 30th day cf June ? Mr. Newell. No, sir; we have the organization already, and our plans will depend somewhat on the amount appropriated after June. But there will be no trouble whatever in spending that amount economically before the 1st of July. Senator Lane. There never is any trouble in spending money, Senator Townsend. Mr. Newell. You see that appropriation last year was not made until the 30th day of June, so we were then well into the middle of the summer; into the middle of the year. Senator Fall. You will understand I have no objection in the world to the completion of this project; I have no doub^: it should be completed. Senator Myers. I was just asking how you figure there could be any loss. Senator Fall. Because under your appropriation as you have it written here they must reimburse the Government the entire $6,000,000. Senator Myers. The land and timber is worth it. Senator Fall. It is theirs, is it not % It is the Indians, and they are only going to get one-half of the water. Now, if the land is worth $100 an acre and they were getting the differeace between $40 and $44 per acre, which is the original cost of the land and the water and they were making that difference in profits, they could afford to take the risk of mortgaging their property for building this enter- prise, but they are mortgaging it, as I understand it, and not making a dollar of profit out of it m any way and are taking the chances, in the event the white men do not buy and pay the full $40 an acre; 232 INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BILL. if they do not do that the Indians are compelled to pay it. This money is their money. Senator Myers. But if any white man abandons his land and can not live on it the Government merely sells it over to some other white man that comes along and he pays the price — some man more indus- trious and better fixed financially. Senator Fall. I am not the guardian of the Indians' money. Senator Lane. Yes, you are. Senator Myers. As I understand, one-half of this land which is allotted to the whites is estimated to be well worth this money to finish the project and good security for it. ' Senator Page. May I interrupt the Senator a moment?, The- Senator from New Mexico says: ''I am not the guardian of the Indians' money.'' I think I am, and I think you are. I want to take issue with you right there. Senator Lane. I want to ask Senator Fall another question on this point. Is it quite fair to the Indian to sell his land off at a fixed, upset price, say of $7 an acre, whereas as the scheme advances and develops it becomes much more valuable for land lying under water ? Is there not a great deal of unfairness ? Senator Fall. It just strikes me that he is taking a chance on the loss; that is, he is taking the chance that every acre of his irrigated land wlQ cost him $80 an acre and he is getting no profit, if there is any profit, on the balance of the land. Senator Lane. Is that not a harder game to go against in your and my country than it is to play faro in a straight game? Senator Fall. Oh, yes. Senator Myers. I present this request. If you think this entire proceeding and plan is radically wrong and unjust, I ask that you do not appropriate the $100,000 which the House did, but if you think the plan is justifiable and correct, then I think there ought to be more than that appropriated, if anything at all. Senator Gronna. How much do you ask ? Senator Myers. I put in an amendment for $500,000, Mr. Newell says $250,000. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Mr. Sells, has sent a letter up here recommending that it be increased to $250,000 on certain conditions, but the letter has not yet arrived, but I suppose Mr. Meritt mil verify that. The letter is sent and is on the way, and you have knowledge of it, Mr. Meritt ? You have conversed with Mr. Sells and know his attitude and are here to speak on it? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Myers. While the letter has not arrived I will ask that Mr. Meritt be heard and state his reasons for asking an increase to $250,000, and on what conditions. Mr. Meritt. This Flathead irrigation project is a very large project that is being constructed by the Reclamation Service under contract with the Secretary of the Interior. This project, when completed, will irrigate about 150,000 acres of land. Senator Fall. That is, the Reclamation Service does the work and the Indian Service pays for it ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; out of appropriations provided by Congress. When this project is completed it will irrigate about 75,000 acres of Indian land and about 75,000 acres of white land. The method of financing this project is as follows: Congress makes appropriations INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 233 out of the Treasury for the construction of this project to be reim- bursed out of the funds of the Indians. Under the law, the white people who take up lands under this project are required to pay for the construction charge covering a period, I believe, of 20 years. The Indians are required to finance the entire project out of their tribal funds. We believe that is an injustice to the Indians, for this reason: The Indians furnish the money; they sell the raw land at $4 and $5 an acre. Their money is used to make the land purchased at $4 to $5 an acre valuable to the extent of about $40 to $100 an acre with only an irrigation cost of probably $40 an acre. Senator Myers. At this point I will ask, was $4 or $5 an acre all the raw land without any water on it was worth? What do you think about that ? IVIi". Meritt. If the project is to be financed entirely out of Indian funds I believe it is an injustice to the Indians; that they should get the benefit of the increased value that their money adds to this land, because their money is providing the fimds with which to construct the irrigation project and the irrigation project increases the value of the raw lands from $4 to $5 an acre to something like $50 an acre. This situation can not be justified from the Indian standpoint for another reason. The Government is advancing the Indian funds to construct an irrigation project and absorbing all the money that they derive from the sale of their land and timber to reimburse the Government for the money advanced. These Indians have been al- lotted irrigable land ; they are without funds with which to make use of the land that has already been allotted to them simply because those funds have to go back into the Treasury to reimburse the Government for the construction of this irrigation project. This project will cost, when completed, approximately $6,000,000. The Indians of that reservation have ample resources to guarantee to the Government this amount. It is estimated they have resources amounting to more than $13,000,000, but those resources should not be used, in our judgment, in this way. I beheve, and I think the Commissioner of Indian Affairs believes, that this project should be constructed not as an Indian project, but as a reclamation project and permit the Indians to pay their pro rata share of the cost of this project. Senator Myers. Is that not what they are doing now, Mr. Meritt ? Mr, Meritt. No, sir; they are not doing it now. Senator Myers. Are they paying more or less than their pro rata share ? Mr. Meritt. They are providing the money with which to con- struct this project for the benefit of themselves and of the white people. Senator Myers. They are to get back all except their pro rata share, are they not? Senator Townsend. Let us put this in another way. Supposing that land belonged to you, the raw land belonged to you. Would you think of furnishing the money, appropriating for building a great irrigation project, one-half of which was to be for the benefit of some- one else to whom part of your land had been sold, and you were to wait at least 20 years before you got back your principal — would you 234 INDIAN APPBOPEIATION BILL. believe that was a good business proposition for you as an individual to engage in ? Senator Myers. No; I think it ought to be completed long belore the 20 years is up and get back the principal. Senator Fall. Under the act of Congress they have 20 years these white people, to pay it back after it is completed. Let me ask you this question and see if I get this right. We will say this 77,000 acres of land, which goes to the white people, is sold for the maxi- mum, $7 an acre. I understand it is appraised at $4 to $7 an acre. Now, as I understand the proceeds of that $7 an acre go back into this fund to reimburse ; is that not it ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. ' Senator Fall. Then as a matter of fact, that is Indian land, is it not? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Fall. Instead of getting $7 the Indians get only $3.50, because one-half goes to reimburse his cost and one-half goes to the white man to reimburse his cost, so he is really getting $3.50 ? Mr. Meritt. The white man ultimately will pay back to the Indian his pro rata share. Senator Fall. I thought he was going to pay it back to the Recla- mation Service or to this fund we appropriated. If we appropriate $500,000 now, one-half of that will be for the benefit of the wbite man and one-half for the Indian ? Mr. Meritt. And the Indian wiU have to reimburse the entire $500,000. Senator Fall. And he takes the chance of the white man doing anything ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Fall. And then the proceeds of this $7 an acre which the white man pays, one-half of that will be applied in repaying his $250,000 and one-half the Indians' $250,000, so the Indian gets $3.50 an acre instead of $4 to $7 an acre ? Senator Lane. There is another point I wish to bring out, that the majority of the allotments on the Flathead Reservation have been made, and the Indians are held responsible, on dry land which never can be irrigated at all. I should like to call on these gentlemen to explain in regard to that. Senator Myers. I should like Mr. Meritt to finish all he has to say. Mr. Meritt. This matter has been in my mind for a number of years. Soon after I became the law clerk of the Indian Bureau and had charge of the legislative work of that bureau, I recognized that an injustice was being done to the Flathead Indians. On January 12, 1912, I prepared a memorandum for the then commis- sioner and set out this condition. That memorandum is found on page 453 of the hearings, and I made a specific recommendation as to what should be done in this case in order that the rights of the Flathead Indians might be protected. One paragraph of that memorandum reads as follows : I wish to call your attention to the fact that under the proposed arrangement the property of the Indians is required to be held as security for the reimbutse- ment of appropriations made by Congress to construct the Flathead irrigation project, which will benefit the white settlers as much as it will benefit the Indians, and the project when completed will irrigate as much land in the ownership of white settlers INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 235 as allotted to the Indians. In view of this fact, I want to suggest the advisability of Congress making direct appropriations for the construction of this project as a regular irrigation project under the supervision of the Reclamation Service rather than an Indian irrigation project, the Indians to pay their proportionate share of the cost per acre for irrigation, and the money heretofore appropriated by Congress and made reimbursable by the Indians could be considered as part payment of the cost of the irrigation of the Indians' lands. Mr. Chairman, I think that is the equitable solution of this question. Senator Fall. I want to congratulate you, sir. Senator Gronna. So, instead of malang it a reimbursable fund^ you want it appropriated direct, the same as any other irrigation project 1 Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; and let the money which shall hereafter be reimbursed be credited to the Indians as part payment of this construction charge. Senator Townsend. If I remember correctly, when this matter was up before it was discovered that in the process of the construction of this irrigation plant up there great power possibilities were created, or power was created, or could be created by the irrigation project ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Do you know to whom that power belongs that is created with the Indians' money ? Mr. Meritt. Probably Mr. Newell could answer that question bet- ter than I could. Mr. Newell. That is one of the most important matters, and I am very glad you have brought it up. This river has a very decided drop, and there is the key of a very valuable water power. Attempts have . been made to file on those lands, and in order to hold those for the use of the Indians, or until Congress could decide what to do, we have started to work there in good faith to hold this until Congress could decide in what way that power should be used. In our estimation it is one of the most valuable assets of the Indians and should be very carefully guarded, assuming that it belongs to the Indians. Senator Page. Is there any doubt about it belonging to the Indians ? Mr. Newell. That is for Congress to decide. Senator Page. Is there any doubt in your mind about it? Mr. Newell. I think it does, and we have proceeded on that assumption, and we have, perhaps, brought a good deal of criticism on ourselves for persistently refusing to indorse any apphcation of various power interests to get control of that wonderfully valuable undeveloped power site. Senator Townsend. Where is this, on pubUc or Indian domain ? Mr. Newell. On Indian land whoUy. Senator Townsend. And the lands are valuable ? Mr. Newell. We have requested that all lands along the lake be withheld and also all lands along the river not allotted, and it is almost a continual, daily struggle to prevent, through inadvertance, entries to be made of those water powers. Senator Page. Do you think they are being made purposely to get water rights there, or through accident ? Mr. Newell. I know they are trying it, because to-day if you or any other man could get an entry allowed there, you could probably go to New York City and sell it for $1,000,000. It is one of the most valuable unprotected rights that are lying out of doors. 236 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Page. Could there be any legislation enacted here that would prevent that by an act of Congress ? Mr. Newell. I think so. I think, also, it should be done. Senator Page. Should you not, as a member of the Reclamation Service, recommend the passage of such a law? Mr. Newell. I should be very glad to recommend it to the Sec- retary. Senator Page. I wish you would. Senator Fall. Suppose you do hold back the water powers and they are so valuable that 160 acres of land entered there might be sold in New York for SI, 000,000, would these Indians get any of it ? Mr. Newell. The promoter would get it immediately he got con* trol of it. Senator Fall. If you hold it back it is turned oyer to the Interior Department or to the Reclamation Department.; will the Indians get any of it, or the department get it all ? Mr. Newell. That is what we are asking Congress to determine. Senator Fall. Is there any bill, or any project of that sort, recog- nizing the Indians' right to any part of that water power ? Mr. Newell. Not so far as I know. I have brought it up, I think, every time I have spoken before the House or the Senate. Senator Fall. You simply request that the Interior Department, the Reclamation Department, should have those withdrawals made in order to prevent entries so they could not go into the hands of pri- vate individuals? Mr. Newell. So they could not be filed upon by any private parties. Senator Fall. Is it your idea, those withdrawals being made, that whenever that water power is utilized its proceeds should go to the Indians, or to whom should it go ? Mr. Newell. My belief is that it should be protected prmiarily to pump water to the irrigable lands of the Indians and whites there, and the excess water power, whatevei it might be, should be devoted to the refunding of the cost of irrigating these lands. Mr. Fall. After that has been refunded then who gets it ? Mr. Newell. That is for Congress to determine — whether it shall be turned over to the State or to the Indian fund. Senator Lane. Would it not be a good idea to have this committee authorize the clerk to draw a bill in reference to that and indorse it? Senator Myers. I will ask Mr. Meritt to go ahead with his state- ment and say all he has to, and to get to the point where he asks $250,000 for this year. Mr. Meritt. I have said about all I care to say on this subject at ^this time. We are not satisfied that this project shall be completed under the present financial arrangement, because we believe it is an injustice to the Indians. We recognize that it will be necessary to carry on some construction work during the next year, otherwise there will be a waste of the moneys that have already been appro- priated. Representing the Indian Office and the Commissioner of Indian Aft'airs, we want it distinctly understood that hereafter, after this year, we shall oppose appropriations on this basis, because it is an injustice to the Indians. With the understanding that a new arrangement will be made, probably along the lines heretofore sug- gested in my statement, we are mlling to agree to an appropriation of INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 237 $250,000 for tliis item for next year, with the distinct understanding that the financial arrangement regarding the construction of this project shall be changed before another year. The Chairman. If I understand it then, the Indian Office will recommend an appropriation of $250,000 upon the understanding that hereafter the construction of this project shall not be under the supervision of the Indian Office, but the Reclamation Office? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Myers. It is under the Reclamation Service now? Mr. Meritt. It is under the Reclamation Service now. The Chairman. I did not quite get the force of the statement. Mr. Meritt. With the understanding that the method of financing this project shall be changed. As it is now, the Indians are financing the projects, which is partly for the benefit of the white people. We want the project financed so that the Indians shall pay only their pro rata share and the money heretofore used out of the Indian funds shall go as a credit on the construction charge in connection with the irri- gating of Indian land. Senator Gronna. ShaU be charged pro rata per acre, as I under- stand ? Is that it ? . Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Myers. Do you oppose any greater appropriation than $250,000, Mr. Meritt ? Mr. Meritt. We would not care to see an appropriation in excess of $250,000. Senator Myers. I am sure if $250,000 is appropriated here, author- ized by the Senate, that the House conferees will make a desperate attempt to cut it down. They always do. We always have to give in to them some. We have always had to do it. Mr. Meritt. With the understanding that this matter shall be straightened out, I beheve that we can get an appropriation this year of $250,000 for this project. Senator Myers. On those conditions are you willing to urge that on the House conferees ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Myers. You want to see $250,000 appropriated that we wiU get out of conference ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Myers. Not cut down ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; on the conditions named. The Chairman. I wish you would put on this bill here, after the word "expended," these words found at the bottom of page 445 of the hearings. . . . Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. We want that provisio clause in this item in order to protect the water rights of the Indians. The Chairman. If some Senator will move that. Senator Page. Let us have it read again. Mr. Meritt. The proviso clause reacls as follows: Provided, That the use of so much water as may be necessary to supply for domestic, Btock-watering, and irrigation purposes, land allotted or to be allotted to Indians on the Flathead Reservation or set aside for administrative purposes within said reserva- tion, is hereby reserved, and the failure of any individual Indian or Indians to make beneficial use of such water shall not operate m any manner or defeat his or her right thereto while said land is held in trust by the United States. All laws and parts of laws in conflict herewith are hereby repealed. 238 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. The Chairman. That is in your original estimate, and the House struck it out ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Page. I move the adoption of that amendment. Senator Myers. T would rather not have anything voted in just now. I have sent word to Senator Walsh and Representative Evans to come up here and say a few words each, if they desire to be heard. I simply want them to have the opportunity to be heard. Senator Fall. I am going to vote for this appropriation at this time, but it is going to be with the understanding that the pledge given by the Indian Department shall be carried out that they are going to work out this proposition so that these Indians are only to be charged mth one-half of all the funds put in. Senator Lane. Can we not also put in the agreement there that the Indian is to get the actual value of the lands ? Senator Fall. We might just as well turn over to him all the lands and let him get all the land is worth, and I think he would make a big thing, but I doubt if that is feasible. Mr. Meritt. That is beyond our power, as a matter of law. Senator Fall. With the understanding that the department is going to work this out so that these Indians are only going to be re- sponsible for $3,000,000 instead of $6,000,000. Mr. Meritt. We will oppose hereafter any appropriation out of the Indian fund for this project unless this matter is straightened out. Senator Fall. As to these appropriations one-half ought to be charged off, if one-half goes to the white man. The Indian should not be compelled to reimburse for the entire amount if one-haK of it goes to the white man. Mr. Meritt. I made that recommendation in my memorandum. Senator Fall. With that understanding. Mr. Meritt. I might say, for the benefit of the committee, that it is the intention of Commissioner Sells to visit these irrigation projects between now and next winter, and these projects are aU to be gone over by Mr. Reed, our irrigation-service man, and we have practically agreed on the plan of arranging this matter for next year, so far as the Indian Office is concerned. Senator Gronna. I agree with the Commissioner in what he said, that this cost should be prorated per acre; that it should be taxed against the white man's land as well as against the Indian's land, but I would want to see the white man protected just as much as the Indian, and if I do not misunderstand the commissioner's amend- ment I think you only mentioned the Indian ; that is, if he does not take advantage of it immediately that he shall not lose his right. Perhaps I am mistaken about that, though ? Mr. Meritt. That is the purpose of the amendment. Senator. Senator Lane. The white man has 20 years, has he not? Mr. Meritt. The white man has 20 years to reimburse the Gov- ernment for the construction cost. Senator Gronna. I understand the reimbursement, but the pro- gram under this law or amendment which you propose is that the white man is protected just the same as the Indian ? Mr. Meritt. The Indian should not, I believe, be placed in the same status as the white man. The white man is capable of pro- tecting his own water rights, but the Indian is not. The Government INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 239 will give an Indian an allotment and will not give him a patent in fee, but will give him a trust patent with a restriction on alienation for 25 years, but unless legislation is passed he will lose practically the value of that land because he does not make beneficial use of the water. Senator Gronna. Suppose a white man should not see fit to take advantage of this the first year, but later on he would hke to take advantage of it. In what position would your amendment place him? Mr. Meritt. The white man would be subject to the laws of the State regarding beneficial use of water. Senator Myers. Mr. Newell, have you anything to say about this proposed change of plans ? Mr. Newell. I want to call attention to one matter in which we have rather been shooting in the dark. As a matter of fact prac- tically all money at present expended, and which is proposed to be expended, has gone to the irrigation of lands actually allotted to Indians. White lands have been irrigated only to a very small extent and only where they surround Indian lands and usually dead Indian lands, so up to the present time we ought not to forget that the money expended has been to irrigate Indian lands. Senator Lane. I thought the statement showed that the Indians were using about 1,000 acres and the white men were usiug about 2,000 acres ? Mr. Newell. Out of their allotments. An Indian may have 80, or 160, or 320, or 640 acres in his family, but he is only irrigating enough to support himself. Senator Fall. I notice in this amendment we have just been dis- cussiug there is printed exactly the condition we are referriug to, the amendment offered by the Senator from Montana. Senator Myers. WiU you read all that amendment ? Senator Fall (reading) : * * * $500,000, the cost of said construction, surveys, plans, and estimates herein, heretofore, or hereafter authorized or expended for said purposes, to be dis- tributed equitably and charged pro rata on an acre basis against the lands benefited by said irrigation project, under rules and regulations to be prescribed by the Secre- tary of the Interior; the amounts expended for the irrigation of the allotted lands of the Indians to be reimbursable in accordance with the provisions of the act of April 4, 1910, and the amounts expended for the irrigation of the unallotted irrigable lands to be or which have been heretofore disposed of under authority of law to be reim- bursable from the proceeds of the sale of water rights disposed of in accordance with the act of May 29, 1908; and the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to enter into contract with the proper authorities of towns or cities located on the former Flat- head Indian Reservation, or in the vicinity thereof, for municipal, irrigation, or do- mestic purposes, under which water shall be supplied. * * * Senator Myers. At this juncture, my colleague. Senator Walsh, has been over this reservation and this project lately, and has talked with people connected with it and has had a good deal of correspondence about it, and I know is quite weU versed on the subject, and I should like the committee to hear from him and ask him any questions they may wish to ask. The Chairman. Senator Walsh Senator Myers. I will say. Senator, as you know, they have been appropriating from $200,000 to $400,000 a year heretofore, and the House, this year appropriated $100,000. I have offered an amend- ment to raise it to $500,000. Mr. Newell thinks it ought to be $500,000. Mr. Meritt, for the Indian Bureau, is wiQiug to advocate 240 INDIAN APPKOPKIATION BILL. $250,000 on condition that we make some changes after this year of the method of financing the project^ and there has been some discus- sion about various methods of what would be best to do, and I should like to have your views about it; I should like for the committee to have your views. STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS J. WALSH, A SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MONTANA. Senator Walsh. I should be very glad, indeed, to give the members of the committee any enlightenment I can concerning any matters which seem to them troublesome, but the work has been very long , delayed now. Settlers have gone in and taken the lands on the expectation that the work would be prosecuted with reasonable dili- gence, as was outhned, and of course they were encour^-ged by these appropriations to beheve there would be irrigation on their lands, and the same way with the Indians. The Indians were led to beUeve that the work would be prosecuted with vigor and persistency and diligence, and of course anybody who knows anything about a project of mat character recognizes that an appropriation of $100,000 would just be lost. You have got to get an outfit there. Senator Fall. You have that. Mr. Newell says he has everything there and has $117,000 unexpended. Senator Walsh. Of course he has not any power; he has not got any horses, for instance. He has got the balance of the equipment, I suppose, plus the scrapers and that kind of thing, but I know as a matter of fact they were obh^ed to turn off the horses every once in a while and go back and provide themselves with mules. The only thing that gives me any special concern about this matter is the utilization of the money so that some results may be secured within a few years to come, at least, say, an appropriation equal to what you might appropriate this year, representing, say, $1,000,000; that would be three or four years' appropriation — would accomphsh enough to put a very considerable portion of the total area under irrigation. ^ I am quite sure that the reclamation officers can figure out some plan of that kind, but the only thing I have to think about is asking' for a considerable appro- priation which would simply go to the forwarding of the project, which would not mean the putting of water on this land for possibly 10 or 12 years. I want to get the money expended, if I can, so as to give some results within a very few years in the future. But $ 1 00,000 would be lost in the work, in my estimation, or at least the greater portion of it would be, and it would hold out no hope at all for speedy completion. I do not think myself, from what I know of this project, that you are going to get far enough to make it very well available to either the Indians or to the settlers who are encouraged to go there on the lands with less than $800,000 to $1,000,000. Senator Myers. There is a good deal of dissatisfaction expressed with the method of financing the plan on which it has been worked. What have you to say about that to the committee ? Senator Walsh. I am not very famiUar with the plan that has heretofore been pursued. Of course, there is only one plan that can in fairness, as it seems to me, be operated. It is not right at all to INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. 241 make the entire amount that is expended for this work reimbursable out of Indian funds, and, obviously, if all that portion is devoted to the improvement of land of the settlers, it ouglit to be made reim- bursable out of the fund contributed by them, and some equitable basis of distribution ought to be arrived at as between the Indians' land and the settlers' land. So much as is properly assessable to the allotted lands of the Indians may very properly be made reimbursable out of the Indians' funds. As a matter of course it should be. Then so much of it as is properly assessable to the improvement of the lands of the settlers should be charged up against the lands of the settlers and be reimbiu-sable in exactly the same way as the general reclama- tion fund is reimbursable. Senator Page. Do you not understand that aU the money that has been appropriated by the Indian Commission for years in the past has been reimbm-sable out of the Indian fimds ? Senator Walsh. I understood, of com-se, it was reimbursable. I do not now recaU, if my attention ever was called, Senator Page, to the fund from which it is reimbursable. Senator Page. But you think if that was true it was wi'ong to the Indians? Senator Walsh. I should think so, undoubtedly. ,. Senator Page. That is the position I thought you would take. Senator Walsh. And of course I undertake to say if that course has been pursued in the past it must have been in mind that the settlers would be required to pay their cost of the reclamation of their lands, and of course some disposition would have to be made of that money thus recovered. Senator Page. But the risk of the transaction would be the risk, of the Indians, would it not ? The whole risk of the financing would be the risk of the Indians, would it not ? Senator Fall. That is under appropriations as heretofore made. Senator Walsh. Exactly, that may be so. The risk would be there, if you could say there would be any risk in the matter. But I should say undoubtedly it must have been contemplated that the set- tlers would pay their cost of the reclamation of their lands. Now I apprehend that if no provision was made as to what should be done with that money it would either go into the general treasury, subject to such distribution as Congress might hereafter make with, respect to the matter, or it would go mto the general reclamation fund and then it would take another act of Congress to take it out of the general fund, or out of the general reclamation fund and apply it to reimbursing the Indian fund, and if that has not been done certainly Congress shouM do that, it seems to me, in the future, because the Indian lands should not be charged up with the cost of reclaiming the lands for the white settlers. - Senator Page. I move, in accordance with our previous arrange- ment, we adjourn until 2 o'clock to-morrow afternoon. The Chairman. There has been no previous arrangement that the Chair knows of. We can run as long as we wish, but a motion to adjourn is in order. vSenator Lane. I should hke to ask Senator Walsh, if it does not take too much of your time, what the raw lands under this irrigation, project, subject to irrigation or water, is worth per acre, about? 39746— PT 1—14 16 242 INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BILL. Senator Walsh. I must answer that in this way. The raw land in that county, without water, is worth what it is worth for grazing purposes, except where you can cultivate it and grow crops on it und^r the dry-farming system. There are certain portions of the Flathead Reservation on which crops are grown without irrigation by dry farming with a moderate degree of success. In fact, I have seen as fine winter wheat growing on the Flathead Reservation as in any place in Montana. But the fact is, particularly over near the western boundary and about the lower river, they have met with no success at all, so that those lands are worth only what they are worth for grazing, and that I should say was about $5 an acre ; I should say that $5 an acre would be a very high price for grazing land. ^ Senator Fall. But for land upon w^hich water can be placed and which will be covered by this project ? Senator Walsh. Of course, if you take lands that are susceptible of irrigation Senator Fall. And under this project ? Senator Walsh. I should say those lands would justify an expendi- ture of $50 to $55 an acre. Senator Fall. And the lands ought to sell in the market subject to that for how much ? Senator Walsh. I should say for $60 an acre. Senator Fall. The Indians are only getting from $4 to $7, is the reason I ask. Senator Walsh. Understand, Mr. Chairman, this is scarcely more than a guess. Senator Myers. I should like to have Mr. Abbott say a few words on this proposed amendment. STATEMENT OF MR. F. H. ABBOTT, WASHINGTON, D. C. Mr. Abbott. The Senator from Oregon quoted some of my com- ments on this project, and last year before the Indian committee I made an objection somewhat along the line of the objection that has been made by the assistant commissioner before your committee to-day on the increased appropriation. I felt then that there was need of a revision of the plan of financing some of these schemes. I never had time while I was in the Indian bureau to study out a com- Elete plan for financing any of these projects as I thought they should B. After I left the Indian Bm-eau, one of the first pieces of work which I undertook on behalf of the Board of Indian Commissioners was a compilation of Indian irrigation law, which, by the courtesy of your chairman, has been placed before you in printed form. In that pamphlet is printed an amendment, which if adopted and enacted into law in the present Indian bill would take care of every single irrigation project which is being constructed by the Govern- ment, whether paid for out of gratuitous appropriations or out of tribal funds, and which provides for chargmg the costs of those projects against the land benefited on an acre basis, and provides for reimbursement either to the Government or the tribe under rules or regulations to be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior. I have rather an intimate first-hand knowledge of conditions on ail of the Montana reservations. I want to say first that I do not agree INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 243 with the sentiment that has been generally expressed here — that Indians in Montana can not or will not reap benefits from irrigable land on their reservations. On the Fort Belknap Reservation a few years ago I know they were irrigating more land than they were on any pther reservation in Montana, per capita — a larger proportion of the area that was under irrigation. Under all of the projects in Montana there is opportunity for the Indians to raise alfalfa upon limited areas; and by raising alfalfa to make their agriculture a very valuable ally to their stock-raising industry, and regardless of whatever theories we may have about forcing Indians to the grazing industry on those large northwestern reservations, the condition nevertheless is going to force itself upon all people who Hve there, whether Indians or whites, that the irrigable land is going to be utiUzed. There is going to be more intensive need of agricultural land as well as of grazing land, so that I contend that there is a need of the development of irrigable land for all of these northwestern Indians. It is true that areas too large for their complete utiUzation, as Mr. Newell has said, have been made in the past. The allotments are larger than the Indians can use; but these irrigation projects are desirable from the standpoint of the Indians, if you give the Indians enough money, enough of their own funds to utilize these lands, and give them farmers who know how to irrigate to help them and assist them in that work. Now, then, as to this particular Flathead project. I do not want to detain you. Having recommended to this committee last against a largely increased appropriation for this project, and now having presented to the committee a plan v/hich will make the cost chargeable against the land irrigated rather than against the Indian or white land, I beUeve, in view of all the conditions there, that this Govern- ment owes it to the white settlers who have gone in under these pro- jects, as well as to the Indians, to complete these projects in the most economical way possible, provided you make the cost chargeable in an equitable manner. And, personally, I believe that Congress ought to appropriate $500,000 or $1,000,000 for Flathead— whatever the engineers can use in the most economical manner — because if you once adopt the principle that the land benefitted and not a general fund shall pay the costs, then very evidently the lower you keep the acreage cost the better it is for the Indian; and provided this committee would accept the amendment which Senator Myers has offered, which provides that the white men shall pay directly into the Treasury their pro rata cost and the Indians likewise only their pro rata share of the costs, I believe that it is advisable to appropriate $500,000, if that is the amount which the Reclamation Service thinks is advisable. And I am sure that the acreage basis should be adopted and the costs individualized against the Indians benefited rather than to make these charges reimbursable against a general fund, because on the Flathead Reservation, as has been said here before, there are about one-half of the Indians who are living on dry allotments, as I said last year, and under the present law their share in the tribal funds is used the same as the share of the man who has irrigable land to pay the cost of this whole project. I am heartily in favor of the amendment which Senator Myers has offered, and I think it is safe and sound and in the interests of the Indians as well as of the whites. 244 INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. Senator Lane. Will that correct that condition— will Senator Myerses amendment correct that? . Mr. Abbott. Senator Myers's amendment, in my judgment, is exactly the thing to correct the condition as it now exists and agamst which I complained last year, and which I agree, to a certain extent with what the commissioner has said. Senator Myers. The only objection I have to pressing this amend- ment now, at this time — the only reason I hesitate to do so, is that I understand from Mr. Meritt that the Indian Bureau is not quite ready yet and does not wish to at this time peremptorily pass upon it, and that you would prefer, Mr. Meritt, that we make an appro- triation for this year on the old basis and leave it to the bureau to« work out in full time its new basis for next year. Am I correct in that, Mr. Meritt ? Mr. Meritt. That is the desire of the bureau. Senator Myers. The bureau would rather not have this amend- ment adopted at this time; that is the attitude, is it not? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Myers. I do not like to press anythiag against the wishes of the Indian Bureau and the commissioner. Senator Lane. If it is the better plan, why not adopt it as soon as we can ? Mr. Meritt. I might say it is the intention of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to go over these projects personallyt We want to work out this legislation on an equitable basis between the two bureaus and we want to protect the rights and the interests of the of the Indians. We would be very glad to have an opportunity to go over this legislation and go over the projects on the ground, and next year in submitting our estimates we will submit a draft of the legislation with our estimates, which we think will meet the situation, and I believe will be acceptable to the members of the committee. / Senator Lane. Could you not do that now, if the matter were delayed a week or two? Senator Myers. While this amendment offered by me I thiak has merit in it, I do not like to hastily or precipitately overthrow an estab- lished system. If the Indian Bureau is more competent to handle this than I am, and if next year it is going to take the work up and give it a thorough and exhaustive review and figure out a plan to its entire satisfaction, I am disposed to let it do so and not press this this year. Senator Fall. The reason I agreed to vote for this appropriation at all was because if you undertake to change it now it is very doubtful if it will get through this caucus at all. If you leave it as it is, they can get the money they need, in my judgment, with the promise on behalf of the commissioner; otherwise we are going to have a fight in Congress which possibly would result in defeating this entirely. Senator Myers. I am afraid of it. In order to bring the matter to a head, I will move simply that the amount $100,000 without changing the verbiage or plan, while I know that the Indian Bureau is opposed to more than $250,000, yet in order to get my own views before the committee and get the sense of the committee, I move that the sum of $100,000 be stricken out and in lieu thereof there be substituted $350,000. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 245 The Chairman. Those in favor of that motion say ''aye." (The substitute vas rejected, Senator Myers voting ''aye.") Senator Myers. Then I move that S250,000 be substituted. (The substitute was agreed to, Senator Lane voting "no.") Senator Page. I renew my motion to adjourn. • Senator Gronna. I would first request that this go in the record. My colleague, Senator McCumber, has offered some amendments to .appropriations to be made for the Wahpeton School. I want to request the chairman to send those amendments to the commissioner, and I should like to have a report from the commissioner. And, in addition to what I have said, I want to say this : I have rehable information from the superintendent that 50 Indians were turned away from the school this year, and furthermore, that he can build that school up so that he can have an enrollment of from 400 to 500 students. Now, the question is this. Where will those Indian students go unless we can take care of them at Wahpeton ? I am not directing my inquiry to the chairman, but I "went this to go into the record to show that it has been brought up. I do not want it to appear that it has been turned down and simply say we do not need it. Some one must be responsible for this. The Chairman. We will take it up to-morrow or the next day. If there is nothing further, the Senator from Vermont has moved that we adjourn until 2 o'clock to-morrow afternoon. (The motion was agreed to. Thereupon, at 4.20 p. m., the committee adjourned until Friday, March 27, 1914, at 2 o'clock p. m.) FRIDAY, MARCH 27, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Ashurst (chairman), Myers, Lane, Robinson, Thompson, Owen, Clapp, La Follette, Page, Gronna, and Townsend. IRRIGATION SYSTEMS, BLACKFEET RESERVATION, MONT. The Chairman. The next item is item No. 75, page 29, of the bill, as follows: For continuing the construction of irrigation systems to irrigate the allotted lands of the Indians of the Blackfeet Indian Reservation, in Montana, and the unallotted irrigable lansd to be disposed of under authority of law, including the necessary sur- veys, plans, and estimates, 150,000, reimbursable in accordance with the provisions of the act of March 1, 1907, and to remain available until expended. The item is referred to on page 456 of the House hearings. Mr. Meritt. This is another irrigation project which is bemg con- structed by the Reclamation Service. There was expended on this project up to June 30, 1913, $830,321. It is estimated that it will cost approximately S3,000,000. The project when completed will irrigate about 122,000 acres of land, and the present irngable area amounts to 10,800 acres. There are on this reservation approxi- mately 2,700 Indians. . . . ^_ * . Senator Page. On this you say you agere with the House i ' Mr. Meritt. Wo will be satisfied with the estimates allowed by the House. ^ ,^ t.t ni ' i .i . Senator Myers. I should like to have Mr. Newell heard on that. 246 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Newell. This irrigation system in Montana^ is immediately south of a large irrigated area in Canada, and immediately north of a large privately irrigated tract, and is one of a series which are being buHt by the Government and private parties, extending all along the Rocky Mountain front. The appropriations have been from $300,000 down to $150,000, in 1912. As Mr. Meritt has stated, the total cost will be about $3,000,000, and less than $1,000,000 has been appro- priated. The foundation has been laid for an extensive irrigation system for water to be brought on 10,000 more acres, all Indian land. In fact, all this land is Indian land that is to be irrigated. It is all irrigated land that has been allotted but the Indians have not yet^ utilized any considerable part of it as they have not yet accepted the ideas of allottments with alacrity. That is to say, they have not moved onto the lands. If we are to continue these irrigation systems, which seems to be the policy of Congress, the work should be carried on at a greater rate than that proposed of $50,000, which merely amounts to marking time. As stated, in the case of the Flathead, ii we are to do anything, it ought to be done in an economical and effective manner, and that we should do something I think is testified by the fact that these 'Indians m.ust be put on a self-supporting basis, must be put on the land, and in that climate the land should be irrigated. I think there are no questions here involved of whites sharing in the expense, because, as I understand it, nearly all the irrigable land is allotted to the Indians, and it is desired to continue the irrigation of those allottments to a point where the tribe can fairly share in them. I do not know that I can say anything more on the subject except I shall be glad to answer questions. Senator Myers. Mr. Newell, this is practically all for the benefit of the Indians, is it not ? Mr. Newell. It is. Senator Myers. There is no question here of using Indian money for white settlers, is there ? Mr. Newell. I do not know cf any. The land on which the sys- tem is to be built is allotted Indian land. Senator Myer§. $50,000 would not enable you to do work which would amount to anything for the coming year ? Mr. Newell. No. Senator Myers. I see you received $150,000 last year. What have you been getting year by year before ? Mr. Newell. It started with $300,000. The next year it was $250,000, then $200,000, and last year $150,000. Senator Myers. You have never gotten less than $100,000 ? Mr. Newell. No, rir. Senator Myers. This is all reimbursable, I understand? Mr. Newell. Yes. Senator Myers. The sooner the work is done the sooner the money will be paid back? Mr. Newell. The sooner the land is brought under irrigation and the Indians definitely located on it the sooner the land will be utilized. Senator Gronna. What was the estimate of tlie bureau ? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 247 Mr. Newell. The estimate which we submitted to the bureau was, I think, about $300,000. Senator Myers. If that is all from Mr. Newell, we have some of the Blackfeet Indians here. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, before we hear from the Indians I should like to make one or two corrections in the statement of Mr. Newell. This irrigation project is being financed on the same basis as the Flathead project, only there are conditions existing on this reservation that probably might be worse than on the Flathead Reservation, for tnis reason: First, this project will irrigate a large amount of land that has not been allotted to Indians and will be thrown open to settlement under existing law, under the act of March 1, 1907. That law does not provide that the white settler shall pay his pro rata cost of the construction work. The entire cost wiU come out of the Indian funds. This is a case where the Indian moneys are being used to construct an irrigation project which will cost approximately $3,000,000 to irrigate about 122,000 acres of land, and only approximately 60 per cent of that land has been allotted to the Indians, and the remaining land will be thrown open to white settlers, and they will only be required to pay under existing law the appraised value of that land without the construction cost. Senator Myers. Will they not be required, then, to pay in addi- tion the pro rata share of putting water on their lands ? Mr. Meritt. Not unless the present law is amended. We have made allotments to the Blacldeet Indians, but we have purposely held up the approval of those allotments until we could get the act of 1907 amended in several particulars. Senator Myers. Have you amendments offered here or recom- mendations ? Mr. Meritt. We drafted the legislation last year, you will recall, and we submitted it to the Congress. Senator Myers. Is it before the committee again this year? Mr. Meritt. We have drafted the legislation this year ? Senator Page. It was not passed last year? Mr, Meritt. It was not passed last year. I beUeve it went into the Indian bill, but went out on a point of order. Senator Myers. That would cure this defect of which you speak, would it not ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Would you read that proposed legislation which will cure the defect ? Senator Page. Let me ask you: Do you know any reason why it would not go out on a point of order this year ? Senator Myers. I do not know what a conference will do. Senator Page. Not a conference, but if a single Senator arises and says ''I object to this on the ground that it is open to the objection of a point of order,'' would it not go out this year as it did last year? Senator Myers. It did not go out on a point of order last year. It went out in joint conference of the conferees between the House and the Senate. I remember that. I had it adopted m the Senate. There was no opposition to it. It did not go out on a point of order on the floor of the Senate, but the House conferees would not agree to it and it just simply had to be dropped to save the Indian bill. 248 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Page. You say you had no opinions as to whether it would or would not be open to a point of order ? Senator Myers. Has it been estimated in such a way as to be impervious to a point or order on the floor of the Senate, Mr. Meritt ? Mr. Meritt. It would be considered legislation, Senator, on the Indian appropriation bill, and would therefore be subject to a point of order. Senator Myers. It was last year, only the point of order was not made last year. Nobody made it on the floor of the Senate. Mr. Meritt. Some of the Indians on that reservation wish that legislation modified somewhat in line with the conference at the office of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs at which the Montana congres- sional delegation was present, and also certain Indians from the Blackfeet Reservation. I believe this modified form of the bill would be an improvement over the old form, and would protect the rights and interests of the Indians. The proposition appeared to meet the approval of he Montana delegation. The Chairman. Will you read that provision ? Senator Myers. It is not formulated yet. Mr. Meritt. We have representatives of the Blackfeet Indians here who could explain that. Senator Myers. I should like to hear from Mr. Perrine. Senator Page. Just one word: Do you understand that the Mon- tana Indians are asking for this legislation ? Senator Lane. They are opposing it. Mr.*MERiTT. They are opposing a large appropriation for the construction of an irrigation project out of their funds. Senator Myers. There are three Indians here, delegated by the council. Senator Robinson. Do you know whether or not there is any considerable sentiment there for the repeal of the law under which the irrigation project was organized and is proceeding? Mr. Meritt. The Indirjis on that reservation have petitioned the office protesting against the construction of this irrigation project out of their funds. Senator Myers. If they do not want it, I do not want them to have it. Senator Robinson. I want to get some information. Do you know how much monev has already been expended ? Mr. Meritt. About $800,000. Senator Robinson. How much more would be required to com- plete the system ? Mr. Meritt. It is estimated it wiU cost $3,000,000. Senator Robinson. $3,000,000 more or $3,000,000 all told? Mr. Meritt. $3,000,000 aU told. Senator Robinson. About $2,200,000 more according to the present estimates ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. I su})pose, of course, you have no means of knowing whether the work can probably be constructed within the limits of the estimates or whether the estimates will have to be increased ? INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. 249 Mr. Meritt. That is an engineering proposition, which I would not be capable of answering definitely. Senator Myers. That $800,000 which has been already expended would be lost if the work were repealed, would it not ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Robinson. If the act was repealed ? Mr. Meritt. No, su*; there is certain construction work there that would irrigate certain lands. Senator Robinson. What is the total area of land that can be irrigated under that project? Mr. Merritt. One hundred and twenty-two thousand acres. Senator Robinson. Is it a successful farming community? Mr. Meritt. The Indians claim that it is not a successful farming community; that it is really a grazing proposition. Senator Robinson. I was just going to say that a number of Indians upon that reservation have made statements which I have heard against that proposition, and insisting also that agricultural operations be abandoned, and that part of the reservation be sold and a fund created with which to buy a herd of cattle for grazing on the reservation. Mr. Meritt. That is the proposition we had up last week in con- ference with the commissioner and the Montana delegation. Senator Robinson. Would it be necessary or advisable to repeal that law in the event that plan should be pursued ? Mr. Meritt. I think the act of 1907 should either be repealed or very materially modified, because it is an injustice to the Indians of the Blackfeet Reservation. Senator Robinson. Does the department think that the comple- tion of this work at so great cost would probably in the end prove fruitful of commensurate benefit, that is, of benefits proportionate to the expenditures necessary ? Mr. Meritt. It would not, so far as the Indians are concerned. Senator Robinson. That is the primary interest, I assume, to be considered. What other interests are there to consider? Mr. Meritt. If the land is thrown open under the Act of 1907 the white locators will get a large benefit from the construction of this project, and under the present law they would not be required to pay their pro rata share of the construction cost. Senator Robinson. I have before me an amendment, which was handed me since I came in the room by some one interested in this subject, contemplating a repeal of that act. I have not had an oppor- tunity of submitting it to Senator Myers, or to you, or to anyone else who is f amihar with the situation there, and I should Uke Senator Myers to give consideration to the subject, if he has not aheady done so. Senator Myers. Mr. Chairman, there is a delegation of Indians here from this reservation, delegated ofiicially hj the council to speak officially for the council in everything pertaining to this. I should like to hear from Mr. Perrine. Senator Lane. Before you start in on this I should like to ask the commissioner how much of this land is now irrigated, and how much of the land is under cultivation both by whites and Indians ? 250 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. There are about 10,000 acres that can now be irrigated under the project as constructed so far. Senator Lane. How much is being irrigated? Mr. Meritt. I have not the exact figures here, Senator, but it is a very small part of it. Senator Lane. How much do you think it is? Mr. Mreitt. I would prefer to get the figures of the Indians who are here from that reservation. Senator Lane. How much of that land is being cultivated by the whites, and how much by Indians ? Mr. Meritt. There is practically no land being cultivated by the whites, and very little by the Indians. Senator Lane. You say there are $800,000 being expended? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; about $800,000. Senator Lane. I understood you to say that under the present system, the law which controls the irrigation of these lands, the whites will have 60 per cent of the benefit ? Mr. Meritt. The Indians will have about 60 per cent. Senator Lane. And 40 per cent of the benefit will go to the whites without any cost to them ? Is that it ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; under existing law. Senator Lane. I want to put that proposition before this committee before we go any further, and I want you to consider it well. Here we are handling business for these people under a law which origi- nated in Congress, under the terms of which these Indians are fur- nishing the means and the lands, and are deprived of 40 per cent of the proceeds, as near as I can estimate, in the last analysis. I should- suggest that a trusteeship managed in that manner is no credit to anyone, and more than that, if it were done in private life it would be criminal, or at least criminal carelessness, and if there is any power in the committee to rectify that condition it is their duty to change it. That is my opinion. You can take it for just what it is worth. I want to go on record as having made that statement. I protest against carrying on the business in this way. If anyone tried to carry on my business in this manner I would stop it if I could, and I would come pretty near doing it. Senator Myers. May I make this suggestion, that I did all I could last year. I offered an amendment on the floor of the Senate, fur- nished by the Indian Bureau, and had it adopted by the Senate, and it went out in conference. Senator Lane. I tried to stop it last year and I did not succeed, for the reason that I did not know anything about this. Now, I am going to try again, and I am going to question this method of doing business. The Chairman. What would you suggest would be a good remedy? Senator Lane. I suggest if these people under the existing laws are being robbed, and evidently they are, from the statement of the commissioner, and are being defrauded of their rights and property, which is justly due them, the first duty of this committee is to correct that condition. The Chairman. We all agree with you. At least, I am sure I do. I only speak for myself. What specific remedy would you suggest ? Senator Lane, t would suggest that the committee join m an attempt to repeal the law, and m'the meantime suspend work on it. INDIAN APPKOPKIATION BILL. 251 Senator Robinson. Of course, an amendment to this bill repealing the law would be subject to a point of order, but if the appropriation is being wasted, if the project is undesirable, if the Indians have repudiated it, and the Bureau of Indian Affairs itself thinks it will not be of sufficient value to the Indians to prosecute it, if the entire appropriation is withheld, and it is desired to repeal it, that can be accomplished through a separate bill. I presume it would not be probable that the repeal can be carried on this bill, because some one would make a point of order against it. Senator Lane. I do not think anyone would make a point of order in the case of a transaction Kke this, in a case which is criminal before God and man. I do not know whether it is or is not the law. But it is wrong and unjust. The Chairman. This act was passed in 1907. Senator Myers. I move that Mr. Perrine be invited to address the committee. If he says he does not want this I am going to move to strike out the entire item. STATEMENT OF MR. JAMES A. PERRINE. ^ . Senator Myers. Tell in particular, Mr. Perrine, what you have to say about this item, and anything else you have to state as to whether the Indians want it or not, whether they want this stricken out, or to have it stay hke it is, or to have it increased. Mr. Perrine. Gentlemen- I want to state, first, that this irrigation system as it is inaugurated on the Blackfeet Reservation was not by the request of the Indians. That was forced on them by Congress in the Dill of 1907, whereby it provided that irrigation systems be inaugurated on the Blackfeet Reservation and certain lands that can be irrigated should be irrigated, and the cost of that work should be paid out of the tribal funds, and if they have not any tribal funds sufficient this would be appropriated from time to time by Congress, and it would be what is known as a reimbursable appropriation, and the cost of the reclamation work was to be taken out of the cost of those lands after they were sold or opened for settlement. Up to date, as Mr. Meritt has just stated, something over $800,000 has gone into this irrigation project, which we do not ask for, and which we do not want, and wnicn was forced on us against our will, and we protested against this in vain. We feel this way, that it is not a farming country up there. People here in Washington probably are impressed with the idea that the Blackfeet Reservation is a land flowing with milk and honey from an agricultural standpoint, but it is not. People here in Washington do not know a thing about conditions up on the Blackfeet Reservation, and we do. We live there. Our business is there, and we know conditions there better than anyone else could possibly know them, and we say right here that it is nothing short of criminal to force a system upon a people that they do not want, that is doomed to failure, and at the same time taking the money out of th^ir pockets to pay for it against their will. Senator Page. Let me ask you a question right there. What interest has promoted this legislation in the past? Who has asked for it ? 252 INDIAN APPEOPEIATIOK BILL. Mr. Perrine. I have no idea who it was. I have a private idea, but I do not like to express it. Senator Myers. It was started by Senator Carter, was it not? Mr. Perrine. I believe so. Senator Carter was the man who was behind this bill. This is not intended in any way as a reflection upon the present delegation from Montana, as this law and all of this has been done several years previous to their coming into pubUc life. Senator Thompson. Your statement applies to both of these item's, the $100,000 and the $50,000 ? Senator Myers. There is only one item there. Senator Page. He speaks about the Blackfeet item. ^ * Senator Myers. I will ask you this question: Do you want this $50,000 item that has been estimated by the bureau stricken out ? Mr. Perrine. I will tell you what I believe: As on one of the two projects, like the Big Medicine project, they have completed the laterals and have the headgates ready and the water ready to turn on the land, and the other project, known as the Badger Creek project, is half completed — at least, the ditch is reaching these allotments they intend to reach — and siQce $800,000 or more has been expend- ed, we believe it would be good business policy to finish that project; get the water to those allotments. But we strenuously object to any further extension of any more irrigation work up there, as it is estimated it is going to cost us $3,000,000 of our money to pay for it. Senator Page. Will the $50,000 estimated by the department do this work you suggest should be done ? Mr. Perrine. The Director of the Reclamation Service could answer that better than I can, because I have not paid any attention to what it would take. Senator Myers. What do you say, Mr. Newell? Would the $50,000 complete that one project he speaks of? Mr. Newell. He is speaking of the Badger Creek project, where the work is nearly done, and the proposition is to extend that to the remaining allotments in that viciruty. I think it is probable, speak- ing off-handedly. Mr. Perrine. I do not believe the Indians would object to having enough money appropriated to finish this Badger Creek project because it has been going so far it might as well be finished, but stop when it is finished. Senator Lane. If it is finished, as I understand, 40 per cent of the profits will go to the whites at the expense of the Indians, without any benefit to the Indians. Do you wish to continue a project that does that ? Mr. Perrine. No; I do not; because I believe if the laws can jiot be amended there should be new laws whereby the appraised value of these farming lands or these lands that are to be opened should be appraised or, in other words, should be sold at their full value. The Federal Government, if I am correct, charges the white settler, I beheve, $60 an acre for lands under the Huntley project in southern Montana. Under this bill our lands that are proposed to be opened are onl}^ appraised at a maximum price of $10 an acre, and still at the INDIAN APPEOPKIATION BILL. 253 same time the State of Montana has placed a minimum value of $10 per acre on all of these State lands, regardless of the character. You can not buy a foot of State land in the State of Montana for less than $10 an acre, and some of it is sold up as high as $30 and $35 an acre. Senator Page. Let me ask you, does the State of Montana sav how much the minimum price shall be ? Mr. Perrine. No; not the State, but I am just merely comparing the relative value of land in the State and our land on the reservation. Senator Page. This minimum price has been fixed by an act of Congress ? Senator Lane. The maximum, rather. Senator Myers. Yes; by Congress. Mr. Meritt. May I niake a correction there? This land was appraised by a commission composed of three, I beUeve ; one a repre- sentative of the Indians, one a representative of the office, and one a representative of the State. ^ Senator Myers. I was speaking of our State lands, Mr. Meritt — a dijBPerent thing. I was speaking of the Montana State lands, none of which can be sold for less than $10 an acre. Mr. Perrine. This has been done by what is called an appraisal commission. One of them was a representative of the Government, one of the State, and one a member of the tribe, and the member of the tribe did all that he could to place what he thought those lands were worth, and the other two, of course, cast the deciding votes in the matter. There were two against one, and that was the maximum price placed on the land. Senator Lane. How long after the Blackfeet Indian secures water on his land is he allowed to perfect his title in order to hold his rights to the water? When does that expire? Is there any hmit on that? Mr. Perrine. I do not know. I can not state that. Mr. Meritt can probably tell that better than I can. Senator Lane. How about that, Mr. Meritt? Mr. Meritt. Here is the law on the subject, found in 34 Statutes at Large, page 1035, as follows: That the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized and directed to im- mediately cause to be surveyed all of the lands embraced within the limits of the Blackfeet Indian Reservation, in the State of Montana. That so soon as all the lands embraced within the said Blackfeet Indian Reservation shall have been surveyed the Commissioner of Indian Affairs shall cause allotments of the same to be made under the provisions of the allotment laws of the United States to all persons having tribal rights or holding tribal relations and who may rightfully belong on said reservation. That there shall be allotted to each member 40 acres of irrigable land and 280 acres of additional land, valuable only for grazing purposes; or at the option of the allottee, the entire 320 acres may be taken in land valuable only for grazing purposes, respectively, and for constructing irrigating systems to irrigate the aforesaid allotted lands, $300,000, $100,000 of which shall be immediately available, the cost of said entire work to be reimbursed from the proceeds of the sale of the lands within said reservations: Provided, That the Indians and the settlers on the surplus land, in the order named, shall have a preference right for one year from the date of the President's proclamation opening the reservation to settlement, to appropriate the waters of the reservation which shall be filed on and appropriated under the laws of the State of Montana, by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs on behalf of the Indians taking irrigable allotments and by the settlers under the same law. At the expiration of the one year aforesaid the irrigation system constructed and to be constructed shall be operated under the laws of the State of Montana, and the title to such systems as may be constructed under this act, until otherwise provided by law, shall be in the Secretary of the Interior in trust for the said Indians, and he may sue and be sued in 254 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. matters relating thereto: And provided further , That the ditches and canals of such irrigation systems may be used, extended, or enlarged for the purpose of <^<^^y,?y??^ water by any person, association, or corporation under and upon compliance witn tne provisions of the laws of the State of Montana: And provided further, That wlien said irrigation systems are in successful operation the cost of operating the same snail be equitably apportioned upon the lands irrigated, and, when the Indians have become self-supportiug, to the annual charge shall be added an amount sufficient to pay back into the Treasury the cost of the work done in their behalf within 30 years, suitable deduction being made for the amounts received from the disposal of the lands within the reservation aforesaid: Provided, That the right to the use of water acquired under the provisions of this act shall be appurtenant to the land irrigated, and beneficial use shall be the basis, the measure, and the limit of the right. Senator Lane. I want to call your attention to the condition as it presents itself. Here is the Indian given a year or some such a. limited time in which to make use of the water, and then he is turned loose on the land without even a plow, a harrow, or a disk, to culti- vate land which white men get 20 years to improve. It takes five years to make good on such lands in our country, on lands that have never been irrigated before. It is a cinch game. Senator Myers. Did we not appropriate, by some amendment, 1100,000 to the Blackfeet Indians, for plows, horses, and things to farm with ? Mr. Meritt. I wish to call attention to the fact that we are now endeavoring by legislation submitted to this committee to cure this condition. Senator Myers. We voted $100,000, did we not? Mr. Meritt. An appropriation for $100,000 for reimbursable pur- poses for this reservation was allowed by this committee a few aays ago. We have also submitted in connection with this very item a provision repealing this water-right provision here, and permitting the Indians to protect their water rights, and if we can get the legis- lation we have asked and the legislation which we are now prepariag in connection with this reservation, we can protect the rights of the Indians. The Indian Office has refused to approve the allotment schedules, because the minute we approve those allotment schedules under the law we are required to go ahead and throw open the reser- vation, and that would result in these Indians losing their property. We are doing everything we can in the Indian Office at this time to perfect this legislation, and if we can get the legislation we have recommended to this committee we can cure that condition. Senator Lane. I was speaking of existing laws. If we do something else and do better it will be right. I am speaking about the law as it stands now. Senator Robinson. Has your amendment been submitted to the committee, Mr. Meritt, or is it just in course of preparation? Mr. Meritt. This is the amendment we would like to have adopted. After the word ''expended" on page 30, line 6, insert the following: Provided, That the use of so much water as may be necessary to supply for domestic, stock-watering, and irrigation purposes, land allotted or to be allotted to Indians on the Blackfeet Reservation or set aside for administrative purposes within said reser- vation, is hereby reserved, and the failure of any individual Indian or Indians to make beneficial use of such water shall not operate in any manner to defeat his or her right thereto. All laws or parts of laws in conflict herewith are hereby repealed. The Chairman. That was in your original estimate? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 255 Senator Robinson. That is new legislation? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; this is new legislation. Senator Page. It was attempted last year, Senator. It went out, and there is not the slightest doubt if the conference committee should agree upon it some Member from the Montana delegation in the House will probably object to it, and make a point of order agamst it. Senator Robinson. If it is put in as a Senate amendment it will not be subject to a po int of order in the House. Senator Myers. Why do you think a Montana Member would object to it. Senator Robinson? The Chairman. The Senator from Arkansas has the floor. Senator Robinson. He can not do any such thing under the rules that a;pply. A point of order against an amendment which is new legislation, if I am correctly informed, can only he in the Senate. It can not he in the House of Representatives. Senator Page. If we make the amendment in the Senate Senator Robinson. If we put the amendment on the bill and some Senator does not make the point of order, then it devolves upon the conferees. Senator Myers. I am curious to know why you think a Montana Representative would object to it. Senator Robinson. I move that the amendment read by Mr. Meritt be agreed to. Senator Page. Years ago this was put forward by a Senator from Montana. Three years ago, or the year before you came. Senator Myers, Senator Dixon pushed this matter, and pushed it with vigor, and asked for a big appropriation. Last year you asked for it. I am not attributing any ill motive to you. I say to you that the Montana Representatives seem to demand what the Indians do not. Senator Myers : I am here to do what Mr. Perrine wants. If he wants this whole $50,000 stricken out, I am willing. Senator Robinson. There may be some question about the wisdom of repeal, but nobody can doubt the fairness of that amendment. The Chairman. May I add that we have on two items language identical with that, and so far as I am concerned if that language does not stay in the bill the item ought to. go out. Senator Myers. I second the motion. The Chairman. Senator Myers moves that that language be a,dopted. Senator Lane. Before you put the motion, I wish to ask Mr. Meritt this: Will that $100,000, which I believe you allow in that fund for plows and implements, be enough to outfit the Indians there who have allotments on irrigable lands to put themselves in shape to farm that land, so that they will be properly prepared to secure benefit from their money which has abeady been expended ? Mr. Meritt. Senator, we can use a much larger amount. Senator Lane. What is absolutely necessary? Is $100,000 •enough ? It is not enough, is it ? Mr. Meritt. I beheve that the $100,000 for the first year will be :sufficient to meet the most urgent needs of those Indians who want ito go to farming. Later we can ask for an additional appropriation. 256 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. In making up the Indian bill this year, we found these conditions existing on a large number of reservations. Congress has gone ahead and made appropriations in some cases of $1,000,000 for construction of irrigation projects. They have allotted the land, and not a dollar has been appropriated to allow the Indian to make beneficial use of those lands. In submitting our estimates this year we have en- deavored to meet this condition on the various reservations, as you will see by the estimates. Senator Myers. Mr. Meritt, would this amendment which you have put in here, if it becomes a law, in any way interfere with any other vested rights, water rights of anybody else, any white people, or anyone of that kind, who have gone m there by permission of Con-, gress ? Would it upset any other rights that have become acquired ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; it would only protect the rights of the Indians. Senator Myers. And would not interfere with other people's rights ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. To correct Senator Page, I m^ight say that this is the first time that this legislation has ever been submitted to Congress. I worked this out with a great deal of care, after studying this water situation on the reservations for two years. This item was in our estimates, and it went out on a point of order in the House of Representatives, made, I believe, by Mr. Mondell of Wyoming. This item is also, I believe, on one of the Wyoming estimates. Senator Page. When was that — last year ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; this year. Senator Robinson. We can put those items in here, and under the rules or procedure which apply, no point of order will lie in the House, it being a Senate amendment. Senator Myers. I should like to hear from Mr. Hamilton. I should like to have Mr. Hamilton heard on this item and on the amendment. STATEMENT OF MR. ROBERT J. HAMILTON. Mr. Hamilton. Mr. Chairman, as I understand. Senator Dixon was the author of the bill instead of Senator Carter. I will ask Senator Robinson to read the proceedings of the Blackfeet Indians in regard to this matter. (Senator Robinson read the copy of the proceedings, as follows:) pETmON. At Browning, in the county of Teton, State of Montana, on this, the 28th day of November, A. D. 1913, we, the undersigned, residents of the Blackfeet Indian Res- ervation and a majority of the members of the Blackfeet Indian tribe of the State of Montana, have convened according to our usual manner and custom for the pur- pose of considering the matter of the surplus lands of this reservation, which the out- side public urge to be thrown open to public settlement at this time. Now, therefore, be it resolved that, whereas the various chambers of commerce and commercial bodies of certain towns near the reservation have and are bring- ing pressure to bear on the department, as well as the Montana delegation in Washington, to open the Blackfeet Reservation to settlement at as early a date aa possible, we believe that a great injustice would be done to the people of our reser- vation if such action was taken by the Government in accordance with the provi- sions of the act of 1907. The said act providing for the allotment of our lands in sev- INDIAN APPBOPBIATION BILL. 257 eraliby aad for tke disposition of the surplus lands after allotment was not in con- formity with any treaty stipulation nor were we consulted in any manner. Likewise ^/inn ^^^^ ^^^^ action would work contrary to our interests if the aforesaid act of 1907 were not amended, for the following reasons, to wit: First. Our attitude in this matter can be supported by oflicial reports of the differ- ent agents and superintendents who have submitted, in an unbiased manner, the fact that the Blackfeet Reservation is of a nonagricultural character and suitable for grazing purposes only. Second. Your petitioners represent that, from our own observations, border settler^ who have made attempts to farm the same character of land as comprises the eastern portion of the reservation, have failed to demonstrate agricultural possibilities in sec- tions wluch are precisely the same as our best irrigable lands; and it is absurd to expect the Indian who is naturally unadapted to farming, to be placed against expe- rienced and expert farmers in competition as agriculturists. Third. That, owing to the high altitude of the reservation and its nearness to the Glacier National Park which comprises live glaciers and which are constantly dis- pelling their cold and frosty atmosphere over our lands, causes this locality to be subject to frost every month during the summer season, therefore, the production of crops is an uncertainty; but as grazing lands it is superior to any section of the State of Montana and we believe that it shoald be conserved for the best good it can sub- serve for the general public. It is an absurd proposition to undertake to oppose nature or attempt to convert a section of country to produce such necessaries of life which climatic conditions can not mature. Homesteaders should familiarize themselves with these conditions before they undertake to locate and not rely upon the representations of railroad corporations and other bodies which are advocating the opening of our surplus lands, and which bodies and corporations are not doing so for the good and best interests of the poor farmer, but are advocating such a move with a view to accomplishing and serving their own selfish ends, and which reasons of course, they do not dare to openly advocate. Fourth. In as much as it is the policy of the Government to reserve all grazing dis- tricts for the purpose of producing a beef supply and that this reservation is more suitable for such purpose than any other section in the State, we, for the reason, most urgently request that our surplus lands be held intact as a resource for beef production. Heretofore this reservation has grazed, aside from the stock which belonged upon the reservation, about 35,000 range cattle which belonged to outside stockmen; there- fore, 600,000 acres of surplus lands, if properly managed, will accommodate about 25,000 cattle. Fifth. The general depression of the beef supply warrants that the State of Mon- tana should retain as much grazing land as possible to produce beef, which is about one-half of our common living, and such depression has increased the high cost of living, and lack of range is solely responsible for the shortage of beef and the high cost of it. This reservation can do more good in beef producing than all the experiment farming can do for our people or the State. The expressed policy of the President to the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs is, in substance, that all Indian reservations be conserved and utilized as beef-producing districts. Sixth. We are of the opinion that, by retaining the Blackfeet Reservation intact for a period of 10 years longer, our surplus lands during that time ought to triple in value, according to the steady rise in the price of real estate property in Montana; and that while these lands are increasing in value each year the revenue derived from grazing tax will enable the tribe to pay the reclamation obligations for the con- struction of irrigating canals in 10 annual installments, and at the expiration of the said period reappraise and relinquish our surplus lands to the Government, if then deemed advisable. Seventh. For the foregoing reasons we do strongly protest against the contempla- tion at this time of opening our surplus lands to settlement, and for the same reasons we ask that our surplus lands be retained by us in common for a period of 10 years; but we most urgently request also the early approval of our allotments, the adjust- ment of our status according to our ability to assume the responsibilities of citizenship, and to be given a definite policy under which the disposition of our allotments may be determined hereafter. Our attitude in this matter is, of course, in conformity with President Wilson's policy to conserve Indian lands for stock raising, and also the policy of the Secretary 39746— PT 1—14 17 258 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. of the Interior to protect the interests and welfare of the Indian who is the principal contracting party m the cession of his lands to the United States. We therefore insist that our consent be first obtained before any lands are again arbitrarily taken from us. To you we most earnestly appeal and respectfully submit this our petition. ■ This petition was signed by a large majority of the reservation people and supposed to be transmitted to the Indian Office at Washington, D. C, by Superintendent Arthur E. McFatridge, under date of December 3, 1913. General Council of the Blackfeet Tribe of Indians. MINUTES. The purpose of the meeting was to decide as to whether or not the surplus lands of the Blackfeet Reservation should be thrown open to settlement or retained in common. « Joseph Brown, temporary chairman, explained the object of the meeting, and at the conclusion of his remarks waived his right to the floor in favor of Arthur E. Mc- Fatridge, siiperintendent of the Blackfeet Reservation. Supt. McFatridge spoke briefly, expressing himself as being in sympathy with the best interests and welfare of the Indians, speaking in a general way as to being in favor of holding tlie greater part of the surplus lands in common and referred to his having recommended that 12 townships be retained for common grazing purposes. Joseph Brown, temporary chairman, then suggested that a permanent chairman be elected, and accordingly nominations were made, upon which a vote was taken, the result of which was that Robert J. Hamilton was duly elected chairman and P. H. Kenneiiy secretary. The question at issue was then opened to general discussion. Acting upon this privilege. Judge Wolf Tail suggested that a general council should be called at a later day in order that the people be notified and be given a chance to express their views and attitude in regard to tJie question to be determined. Peter Oscar also spoke in favor of holding the surplus lands of the reservation in common. Curly Bear appealed to the mixed-blood Indians because of their superior knowl- edge and intelligence, to exercise such knowledge in the way of protecting the rights of the full-blood Indians. The speaker was also in favor of calling a general council at a later day. Chairman Hamilton then read extracts from correspondence with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, such correspondence bearing upon the subject in question. Upon the suggestion of Curly Bear that an adjournment be taken until Saturday, November 29, Jos. Brown protested against any further delay in taking action and outlined his reasons therefor. James Perrine briefly outlined his views and reasons as to why the surplus lands should not be thrown open to settlement and at the conclusion of his remarks solicited further discussion of the subject. Upon motion, a vote was taken upon the question at issue, the result of which was that the motion to hold the surplus lands in common was unanimously carried. Upon motion of Jos. Brown, which was adopted, a committee of five was elected to prepare resolutions to be submitted to the proper authorities in the form of a protest of the people of the reservation against the opening of the reservation to settlement. The names of the committee are as follows: James Perrine, R. J. Hamilton, Malcolm Clarke, Jos, Brown, and Charles W. Buck. An adjournment was taken until Thursday, November 27, 1913. Senator Lane. I want to ask Mr. Meritt another question. The Indians have the land. The lands are the assets of the Indians. You are asking for an appropriation of $100,000 to buy them farm- ing implements to help them start themselves into farming. They need all of that, and perhaps will need more. That is an appropria- tion from a pubHc fund, is it not ? Mr. Meritt. That is a reimbursable appropriation. Senator Lane. Is it not a fact that these same Indians already have $245,000 in cash in the Treasm-y at this time, and which amount if used to carry them along would pay the expense of this entire reclamation project, so far as it is advanced at this time? INDIAN AI^PKOPRIATION BILL. 259 ^ Mr. Meritt, They have certain funds in the Treasury, but this irrigation project so far constructed amounts to about $800;000. Senator Lane. Would not that $245,000 carry them through for their assessments on that work, and get this land paid for and clear of debt, and would it not be a good use to make of the money rather than to mortgage their lands for more money and put them further in debt? They abeady have a quarter of a million dollars in cash on hand, and would not two hues in the amendment change that so it could be done ? Mr. Meritt. That amount of cash has been hypothecated for appropriations for this irrigation project. Senator Lane. The money has been hypothecated? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. That is the reason why it was necessary to get a reimbursable appropriation. Senator Myers. Is there anything else, Mr. Hamilton, you wish to say? Mr. Hamilton. The reasons why we object to this extension of irrigation projects is this: In 1894 or 1895 the Government, by force account, constructed an irrigation ditch on Birch Creek, After that was completed the Conrad Investment Co. went and took all the water. The matter got into the court, and we got a decision that we should have 1,666§ inches of that water. That decision has not been enforced, and that ditch has stood idle all this time. In 1903 the Government put in another irrigation project north of Cut Bank, about 6 miles. That cost about $36,000. We protested against that by two delegations coming to Washington at that time. The Gov- ernment sent an expert there to test the soil. Upon that represen- tative's report the Government went down to this work and stopped right there at the vital point, and that ditch has been standing idle all this time. In 1908 Capt. Dane, who was agent then, tried an experi- ment farm on it by trying two acres of rutabagas on this ditch. They grew rutabagas to a small size, and when the Indians got ready to dig them up he forbade them from digging them. That crop froze in the ground, and no attempt has been made ever since. That is the only way we can account for this $36,000 — two acres in cultivation. The Two Medicine project has been completed. No attempts have been made to go on with this, and still they insist with going on with this reclamation work. Those are the reasons we object to this. Senator Myers. Do you object to this $50,000 appropriation? Do you want it stricken out and nothing appropriated? Mr. Hamilton. No; I do not object to this $50,000. Senator Myers. You do not object to this item? Mr. Hamilton. No; not that item. Senator Lane. It is the general plan you are objecting to ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes; the general plan. There are allotments or claims around St. Marys Lake. The Reclamation Service came along and they put a half a mile hmit around this lake, and drove those Indians that had claims out of there, and told them to take their allotments off, or take them somewhere else, and they would pay those Indians for their allotments or their improvements along this lake. I think they did so. They paid some of them. But there is now a suit pending between the Government and Henkel over that 260 INDIAN APPEOPHIATXON BILL. project, over those lands, and they have asked me to look into the matter and see what settlement can bfe made as to this hali-mile limit around the surface. The Lower St. Marys Lake is wholly m the Blackfeet Indian Reservation. It has caused considerable cantro- versy and dissatisfaction among the allottees, or would-be allottees, on the lake. Some of them have hay lands on that lake. They told them to get off. They were going to raise the lake 50 feet high and build a dam there. The Reclamation Service did a whole lot of Work there on the south side, expending about $1,000,000. They have abandoned that work, and now they have changed the course on the north side of the river going through the allotment, and offering the allottees $8 damage for those allotments, not by the acre, but the whole allotments. Hence there is dissatisfaction on the part of the allottees. Those are the conditions existing on the Blackfeet Reservation. So we are opposed to this irrigation project on general principles. Senator Myers. As I understand, you do not oppose this item or this amendment ? That is what I am getting at. Mr. Hamilton. The amendment to change the allotment? Senator Myers. The amendment that Mr. Meritt has just offered and the 150,000 appropriation. You do not oppose either of them, as I understand it ? Mr. Hamilton. No; we do not oppose that. We want this act of 1907 amended so as to satisfy the Indians. Senator Myers. I suggest that we vote on this. Senator Townsend. i wanted to ask a question or two about that. Is it disputed by the irrigation service that these projects on Blackfeet Reservation are not going to result in benefit to the farming lands there of the Indians ? Senator Myers. What do you say to that, Mr. Newell? Mr. Newell. We are mixing up a good many different things, gentlemen, but to explain it i must say that the east side of the reservation is relatively low and is similar to the character of the lands that are being irrigated by whites in the vicinity of , on the opposite side of the stream. I believe that irrigation proposed by Congress is of benefit to those relatively low-lying lands on the east side. In regard to the remaming lands, the great bulk of the lands on the reservation, I am thoroughly insympathy with the desire to hold them in common, and I believe they should Be, but with the relatively small amount which has been irrigated and which has been allotted to the Indians, I believe that the mvestment there is a good investment, and that we should continue it and complete it. Senator Myers. Are the Indians using the water? Mr. Newell. They have not accepted the allotments and moved on to them. Senator Myers. When they do accept them can the water be d any earthly use to them for farming purposes ? Mr. Newell. Yes. Senator Myers. What can they grow? Mr. Newell. Alfalfa and all the crops which are being raised by their neighbors, the whites, on the other side of the stream. Senator Myers. What can be raised ? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 261 Mr. Newell. Alfalfa, wheat, barley, and the common farm prod- .ucts of that class. Senator Lane. Is that the side of the stream where they are going to open it up for white settlers? Mr. Newell. I do not know what the plans of the Indian Office are. We are completing this to the lands which are good irrigable lands, we believe, and which have been allotted to the Indians. We can extend that system as much or as httle as desired, and cover additional lands that are desired, but our eyes have been fixed strictly on allotted land. Senator Townsenp. I have never been satisfied, and especially have I not been satisfied in the last year, that many of these projects up in this country are worth the money we are putting into them. I feel that we are expending the Indian's money for something which they are going to get no benefit from commensurate with the expense. Because you commence a project which is no good, and is not going to result in anything, is no reason, to my mind, that we should con- tinue it. Senator Myers. Why do you assume it was begun on that premise? Senator Townsexd. I asked my question originally on that prem- ise, because I have been informed that there are a number of proj- ects up there where the land has been irrigated, and especially on the Blackfeet Reservation, where no irrigation project should have been established; that the land is not fit for farming purposes, as we ordi- narily understand it, and that practically the Indian is going to get no benefit out of it. I know we plunged into a great many irrigation projects, and I think we did it blindly, and I think we would not spend a white man's money under such projects as that. If it was an irrigation project that was to be paid for by the money of the people of this country, many of those projects would not have been under- taken. I may be mistaken about what I have learned in reference to it, and that is what I want to know from you, who has charge of this matter, whether there is a good reason in the first place or was a good reason for starting those projects, and whether they will be worth the money when we get through with them. Mr. Newell. There is a good reason, there was a good reason, and there is a good reason for continuing. Of course, people may differ as to the relative value of land, but that land under irrigation is worth the cost of bringing the v/ater to it. That is shown by the fact that the whites are irrigating both north and south of there at the same altitude and in the same climate. It is not as good land as it is over on the other side of the mountain, and there may be men who say it is not suitable, but the agricultural experts, the practical men, who judge those things from the standpoint of their practical knowl- edge, will bear me out that it is worth finishing; that the expendi- ture is worth the cost. Senator Lane. I want to ask Mr. Newell if it is not a fact that in the payment for these lands, the Indian high land— and most of his land is high land — is being made responsible for the payment, of the installation of this ? ; > Mr. Newell. That I do not know. Senator Lane. That is a fact, I am told. ■ ; 262 INDIAN APPEOPKIATION BILL. Mr. Newell. We are irrigating the low-lying land. Senator Townsend. I am glad you asked that question, Senator Lane, because I would have forgotten this question. Let me ask you this question: Supposing that the lands irrigated, like the other projects where we are undertaking them on the part of the Govern- ment, are the only lands that are to pay for this expense. Supposing no other land of the Indian was to be encumbered to pay for these, do you think, then, they would be worth the expenditure ? Mr. Newell. Certainly. I am putting it on that assumption. The lands irrigated will pay the entire cost, and that expense will not come out of any other lands in any way, shape or manner. The acre irrigated should pay the cost of its irrigation, and that is the assump-* tion on which I answered you. On the ground of equit;^ we could not see any reason why any other land should pay any portion of that cost. And to-day, if that land were open to white settlement, under suitable laws, we could get back the cost of that investment. I make that prediction very safely. Senator To WNSENT>. Then is this not true: Supposing the project should not result in the benefit you expect from it, will not the whole tribal fund be responsible for whatever money is invested ? Mr. Newell. That is according to your action. Senator Townsend. Is not that the law? Mr. Newell. I will have to leave that to Mr. Meritt. Mr. Meritt. That is the law. Mr. Newell. But it is not necessary from an economic standpoint that it should be so. That land is worth the expenditure put upon it. Mr. Meritt. That is what the Indian Office is protesting against now. Senator Lane. Here is a successful Indian, an Indian who made a success under these conditions, Mr. Clark. He is a Blackfeet Indian. He has had some experience in farming on some of these lands. I should like to have him tell what result he obtained from his crops. Mr. Clark. The Blackfeet Keservation is different from the land which has been described by Mr. Newell. We live right up, you might say, on the pinnacle of the continent. On our reservation the waters flow north into the Arctic and the St. Marys. The rivers on the south of St. Marys flow into the Gulf. So we are right upon top of the divide of the continent, right up against those glaciers. You take it 40 miles away from there the atmosphere and the cli- matic conditions are different, and you do not get frost every month in the year like we usually get, and they can raise alf aKa. Valier is away south of that line. We will say it is 70 miles away, or something around 60 miles south of this high land of ours; that is, this high dividing line, and it is about 40 miles away from the mountains, so that escapes the frosts and the cold cHmate. Five years ago I bought alfalfa, the best alfalfa I could get. I paid $22 a hundred pounds for seed. I sowed 17 acres of alfalfa on my place there, which is situated within about a mile of the reservation. That first grew up awfully nice. It looked nice, and it grew up and I cut it down and then left it lay there to mush. That was according to the scientific raising of aKalfa. That winter aU of it froze up, and that is the same experience every man on the reservation has had. INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. 263 Patsy Higgins, a white man there, with an Indian family, who has had experience in farming, has tried to raise alfalfa. While he Ures farther away from the mountains than I do, his alfalfa was nearly all frozen out, so that was a failure. Mr. Goss, who is another white man, experienced farmer, with an Indian family, living close to me, tried alfalfa, and his froze out. Mr. Buck tried to raise alfalfa and his froze out. Senator Townsend. On irrigated land ? ;Mr. Clark. Yes, on irrigated land. I know I irrigated every foot of it. The Chairman. Do you think this project should not have been built? Mr. Clark. No. The Chairman. Are you opposed to this appropriation ? Mr. Clark. The condition is this: That ditch is almost complete, and while it has cost us around $800,000, and if it would take some- where around $50,000, or less, to complete it, to put it on the land, I think the Indians would not object to' completing the project, but not to expend another dollar. You see it is a proposition like this: The ditch is already taken right down there to the doors of the lands where it is to be irrigated at fliis time, and by just a little extension there it will begin to be thrown upon the lands to be irrigated. Heretofore the money that has been expended on it has brought it through deep cuts and roUing hiUs, where it can not be used at all. Now, it has reached that point where it is running onto the level ground, but by extending it on now it will begin to be used. Senator Townsend. You think as they have expended $800,000, they had better spend a little more and see if it will go through ? Mr. Clark. Yes. Mr. Meritt. If I may be permitted to make a statement right there: The Indian Office would have opposed the expenditure of another dollar on x this irrigation project if it were not for the purpose of protecting the $800,000 that has already been expended. We do not want tSs money expended for new construction work. It is simply for the protection of the money already invested to com- plete the part of the project that is now already near completion. The Chairman. You think the $50,000 should be appropriated ? Mr. Meritt. I think the $50,000 is necessary to protect the money that has already been expended by Congress. Senator Thompson. That will be enough to end it entirely? Mr. Meritt. We are going to insist in the Indian Office on a new condition on that reservation, or we shall oppose the further con- struction work on that project. The Chairman. The question is on the amendment. Senator Lane. I asked Mr. Sloan to look up the law under which I am informed that there are $245,000 already to the credit of these Indians, and by a sHght change in this we can make that available to them, sufficient to give them farming equipment, and give them a chance to try this. Mr. Sloan, have you looked that up ? Mr. Sloan. Yes. . Senator Lane. Will you read that, and tell us what it means. You are an attorney. 264 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. STATEMENT OF MR. THOMAS L. SIOAN. Mr. Sloan. The act of March 1, 1907, in the Indian appropriatiatt bill of that year, for the year ending June 30, 1908, as to the Blackfeet - provision, reads: Tliat after deducting the expenses of the commission of classification, appraisement, and sale of lands, and such other incidental expenses as shall have been necessarily incurred, including the cost of survey of said lands, the balance realized from the proceeds of the sale of the lands in conformity with this act shall be paid into the Treasury of the United States and placed to the credit of said Indian tribe. Not exceeding one-third of the total amount thus deposited in the Treasury, together with one-third of the amount of the principal of all other funds now placed to the credit of or wliich is due said tribe of Indians from all sources, shall be expended from time ♦ to time by the Secretary of the Interior as he may deem advisable for the benefit of said Indians, in the construction and maintenance of irrigation ditches, the purchase of stock cattle, horses, and farming implements, and in their aducation and civiliza- tion. The remainder of all funds deposited in the Treasury, realized from such sale of lands herein authorized, together with the remainder of all other fimds now placed to the credit i-f or that shall hereafter become due to said tribe of Indians, shall, upon the date of the approval by the Secretary of the Interior of the allotments of land authorized by this act, be allotted in severalty to the members of the tribe, the persons entitled to share as members in such distribution to be determined by said Secretary; the funds thus allotted and apportioned shall be placed to the credit of such indi- viduals upon the books of the United States Treasury for the benefit of such allottees, their legatees, or heirs. The President may, by Executive order, from time to time order the distribution and payment of such funds or the interest accruing therefrom to such individual members of the tribe as in his judgment would be for the best interests of such individuals to have such distribution made, under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe therefor: Provided, That s > long as the United States shall hold the funds as trustee for any member of the tribe the Indian beneficiary shall be paid interest thereon annually at the rate of 4 per cent per annum. The id<:*a is that these moneys are not available for us for payment of the irrigation project, and that they are available for the uses of farming purposes, for the purchase of cattle, stock, and horses. The matter, as I understand it, has been submitted to the Comptroller of the Treasury Department, who says that it may be used in that way. Senator Gronna. I was just going to say that that law permits the Indian Bureau to purchase stock and do anything they wish to for the benefit of the Indians. Mr. Sloan. One piece of information has come to me from several sources that I might sp?ak of at this time. In the construction of the Two Medicine Lake Dam, they had a dam 50 feet high, which is to raise the water in the lake 27 feet. Th^rc are allotments along the banks of this lake, which has an extent of 9 miles, and on both banks of the lake is an immense amount of saw timber that when the gates are closed and the water raised will be entirely destroyed and lost to the people. My information is that it could be sawed up and used and be of great benefit to the Indian people, and that if there were proper care and administration and proper care of their interests taken they would be graatly benefited by the use of this timber, hav- ing it sawed and distributed among the Indians in a proper way. The Chairman. The question is on the amendment proposed by the commissioner, which has been read. Senator Lane. Will you amend that by allowing them to use this fund, or substitute this fund for that one ? If j^ou have not used that, what is the use of appropriating more money ? Mr. Meritt. Senator, I might say that there is due the United States upon the construction of this project about $800,000, and the INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 265 •Indians have at this time about $295,000 in the Treasury. They have not sufficient funds to reimburse the Government for the money that has aheady been expended. The Chairman. The question is on the amendment proposed by the commissioner. (The amendment was agreed to.) The Chairman. The question is now on adoption the item as amended. (The item was agi*eed to.) ^ The Chairman. The next item is item No. 76, page 30 of the com- parison, irrigation systems, Fort Peck Reservation, Mont. Senator Lane. Just a moment. Did you dispose of that $100,000 fund? The Chairman. We Avill return to that. Senator Lane. I did not know that included that. Senator Myers. That $100,000 was voted several days ago. The Chairman. That was item No. 18, for industry among the In- dians. $100,000 was approved, was it not, Mr. Commissioner? Mr. Meritt. Yes, six*. , Senator Lane. That was approved before these facts were stated to the committee. The Chairman. That is true. Senator Lane. Now, the committee is in possession of additional facts. Does not the committee think it is wise to use this money for this purpose, instead of putting the Indians further in debt ? P Senator Page. They are getting 4 per cent on their money. If we put this money in we do not charge them any interest, so they are not suffering. I did not want to raise that question because the com- missioners thinks we have opened quite a wide question here. Mr. Meritt. This other arrangement wiU be better for the Indians, because they will be getting a loan from the Government without interest for a period of 25 years. Senator Lane. That is a poor business proposition for somebody. Mr. Meritt. Look at it from the Government standpoint. The Government has paid out $800,000 for an irrigation system, which is reimbursable, and the Indians have in the Treasury less than $300,000. The Indians lack almost $500,000 of having sufficient money to reimburse for the money that has aheady been advanced by the Government. Senator Lane. Here you are turning the Indians onto land which will not be worth a penny an acre to them unless you provide means to utiUze those lands. One hundred thousand dollars will not be sufficient. They have nearly $300,000. They get 4 per cent interest on that, and in the meantime for the lack of money they lose their lands, which are worth a great deal more. Senator Townsend. There is another question, Senator Lane; I may not have understood the reading of that law by Mr. Sloan aright, but if I followed it correctly this money could not be used for the irrigation project. The Chairman. That is the way I gathered it. Senator Lane. But it can be used for buying tools for farming? Senator Townsend. It expressly states what the money shall be used for, but not for irrigation purposes. 266 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILIj. Senator Lane. I am talking about farming implements — plows, etc. Senator Townsend. That evidently was the intention of the stat- ute. Senator Lane. They need it. n v.- ^ Senator Townsend. But they can not appropriate out of this tund money for reimbursing the Government for what has been expended, can they, Mr. Meritt ? Mr. Meritt. Congress could authorize the expenditure of this money for industrial purposes. Senator Townsend. It has done that, has it not? Mr. Meritt. There is a law regarding that, but the Government? has expended $800,000 on the construction of this project. Senator Townsend. Yes. Mr. Meritt. And the Indians have reimbursed the Government only about $65,000. Senator Townsend. Yes. Mr. Meritt. There is in the Treasury less than $300,000 belonging to those Indians. Senator Townsend. Eight there. Is there any way in which that $300,000, or less than $300,000, could be paid to the Government on these irrigation projects under the statute as it exists to-day? Mr. Meritt. I think there is an act which requires a certain pay- ment to the Government. Mr. Conner, of the irrigation section, has been handling that, and I should like to have him explain it to the committee. Mr. Conner. The act of April 4, 1910, provides that hereafter the Secretary of the Interior shall state annual accounts of reimbursable appropriations, and that he shall credit the United States with what- ever amounts may be to the credit of Indian tribes where a reimburs- able appropriation has been made. Under that act every year we send up to the Treasury Department a statement showing the amounts available, and he has covered them into the miscellaneous fund in the General Treasury unappropriated . Senator Townsend. What was the date of the act Mr. Sloan read a little while ago ? Mr. Conner. 1907. Senator Townsend. This is a subsequent act ? Mr. Conner. Yes, April 4, 1910. Senator Lane. Senator, here are some people going onto lands with with water put onto them, under the same conditions that the whites are doing. We find that the whites have been given a period of 20 years, and a low rate of interest, and every opportunity afforded them to make good on these kinds of land. They are refractory lands, lands which never had water on them before. The time limit given the Indians to improve and maintain their water rights is snort. They can not do it unless they have proper farming implements. It is throwiQg the money away. I think if you are to put them on such lands and expect them to do as well as the white people they ought to be fixed up in a manner to handle it right. Senator Townsend. I think you are absoluetly right, but I sup- posed that they had made somei appropriations for that. Senator Lane. I think some money ought to be appropriated to give them that opportunity. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 267 Senator Townsend. Have we not appropriated the money in this bill for that purpose ? The Chairman. Yes, $100,000. Senator Lane. That is not enough. The Chairman. Somebody move to increase it, then, so that we can discuss it. Senator Page. I do not think we need an increase. I think that is a good starter. The Chairman. Somebody move that it be increased. Senator Lane. I move that it be increased. Senator Gronna. May I ask Mr. Abbott to give us some informa- tion on that ? Mr. Abbott. I think I can straighten out, perhaps, something in the matter of that balance in the Treasury to tne credit of, the Black- feet Indians. Last winter Secretary Lane, upon my recommendation, signed an authority for $200,000 of this balance in the Treasury to buy cattle for the Blackfeet Indians. Before the authority went through the Secretary raised some question as to the legality of the authority. The matter was submitted to the Comptroller of the Treasury, and he rendered a decision to the eflFect that this money could not be used without further legislation for the purchase of cattle. The act which was read by Mr. Sloan provides that only one-third of the balance in the Treasury can be used for irrigation and the purchase of cattle. The balance can not be used for irrigation or for the purchase of cattle, or for any other purpose whatsoever until after the allotment of these lands is approved, and the proclamation of the President opening the reservation issued. It will therefore require an item m the Indian bill making available the balance in the Treasury for the use of these Indians in order to make it available to them. Two or three hnes in the Indian bill would authorize the distribution of this money to the individual members of the tribe, and that could be used as you may see fit to direct. The Chairman. The question is now with respect to this Item No. 6, unless some one makes a motion regarding Item No. 11 in regard to industry among the Indians. What is the pleasure of the committee? Do you want to increase the item of $100,000 for Industry among the Indians? Senator Page. I do not think we do. The Chairman. Do" you move. Senator Lane, to increase it? Senator Lane. Yes. Senator Townsend. It would seem to me that it would depend alto- gether on the department. If the department can use more money The Chairman. There has been so much discussion about it that I dislike to pass it by and feel that we passed it without discussion. Senator Lane. Is this another item you are taking up now ? The Chairman. If you do not make that motion we will take up item No. 76. IRRIGATION SYSTEMS, FORT PECK RESERVATION, MONT. The Chairman. The next item is item No. 76, page 30 of the com- parison, as follows: For continuing construction of irrigation systems to irrigate allotted lands of the Indians of the Fort Peck Indian Reservation in Montana, including necessary sur- 268 INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. veys, plans, and estimates, 150,000, the same to be reimbursable, and to remain avail- able until expended. The item is discussed on page 460 of the House hearings. Senator Myers. Why did you cut that down so much Irom what it was last year ^ Give your reasons, please. ... Mr. Meritt. We had the same conditions existing on this irrigation project that exist on the Flathead and Blackfeet Reservations. This project will cost, it is estimated, more than $5,000,000. It will irri- gate about 152,000 acres when completed, and only a portion of this irrigated land mil be farmed by the Indians. The project is being constructed on the reimbursable basis out of funds belonging to the Indians, and we wanted the appropriation for Flathead, Blackfeet, ^ and Fort Peck Reservations kept down to the limit until we could change the basis on which these projects are financed, because we think it is now an injustice to the Indians. Senator Myers. When can this be changed^— this year or next year ? Mr. Meritt. We are asking for an appropriation of 150,000 for this year, with the hope and expectation of submitting to Congress at its next regular session a basis on which these projects can be completed, so that it will be fair to the Indians and fair to the white people ahke. Senator Townsend. How much do you say we have expended on that project now? Mr. Meritt. We have expended, up to June 30, 1913, $281,648. Senator Townsend. What did you say about $5,000,000 ? Mr. Meritt. It is estimated it will cost more than $5,000,000 to complete this project by the Reclamation Service. Senator Townsend. That is more than $33 an acre of the land that can be irrigated ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Myers. I do not want to elicit much discussion, but I wUl just ask Mr. Newell this: Mr. Newell, can you do anything of any consequence with $50,000 for the coming year? Mr. Newell. We can continue the work on some of the smaller systems and bring water to the additional allotments. It is already stated that the complete project, as it is being worked out, or rather the collection of projects to irrigate 152,000 acres of land, includes a rather expensive development along the Missouri River which I doubt whether it can be put in for a great many years; but that is the ulti- mate development possible. But there are a number of small sys- tems, some of which we have built now on some 'of the smaller streams tributary to the Missouri. In this case, as in the others, the exi3enditure is being made pri- marily for allottees of lands, and those lands, like those described on the Blackfeet, are far north, and they have not the congenial climate they have over in the Flathead Valley. To anticipate the question, I will say that they are worth, in my opinion, the cost of irrigation and will fully justify the continuation of that work on the Indians' land. Practically the greater part of the sum has been expended in the employment of the Indians, and the improvement in the Indians themselves has been very notable since we started this work and gave them regular employment at good wages, so that I hope we may have a larger sum which we can use on the Indian lands in the emplo5^ment of Indians in building these irrigation systems on their lands. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 269 Senator Myers. What would be your idea? Mt. Ns:WiyLL, We have asked for $375,000, I think, believing that TfTomld be an economical and proper expenditure to make. Senator Page. Mr. Chairman, 1 believe that we are going over the same ground that we have on all these other appropriations. We are simply traversing the same ground. The Chaikman. How much do you think ought to be appropri- ated on this item, Mr. Commissioner ? Mr. Meritt. In view of the method of financing this project, and in view of the fact that we beheve that it is an injustice to the Indians to take their money to construct an irrigation project that will benefit the white people as well as the Indians, and as only 50 per cent of the land that will be irrigated by this project ^vill be in the ownership of the Indians, we are opposed to a larger appropriation than $50,000 at this time until the method of financing these projects now being con- sidered by the Reclamation Service can be changed and put on a basis that will be fair to both the Indians and the whites. The Chairman. Have you anvthing to sav regarding the language that will guard the Indians so that they will not be deprived of any rights by lapse or neglect? Mr. Meritt. We have the regular proviso, which we should like to have inserted, after line 11, page 30, reading as follows: Provided, Tliat the use of so much water as may be necessary to supply for domestic stock watering and irrigation purposes, land allotted or to be allotted to Indians on the Fort Peck Reservation or set aside for administrative purposes within said reservation, is hereby reserved, and the failure of any individual Indian or Indians to make beneficial use of such water shall not operate in any manner to defeat his or her right thereto while said land is held in trust by the United States. All laws and parts of laws in conflict herewith are hereby repealed. Senator Page. I move that that amendment be adopted. Senator Myers. Will that impair any one else's water rights ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Gronna. How many white settlers are there on the Fort Peck Reservation ? Mr. Meritt. This reservation will very soon be thrown open. Senator Gronna. That was not my question. I asked you how many white settlers there are there now? Have there any entries been made on this reservation by white people under the homestead laws ? Mr. Meritt. I was going to explain that, Senator, by stating the President has recently issued a proclamation which will throw this reservation open on May 1, I believe, and there will be available for entry four hundred and eighty-six thousand and some odd acres of agricultural land and 737,000 acres of grazing land. This land has been appraised at from $2.50 up to $7 an acre. Senator Lane. Can it be sold at that price? Mr. Meritt. It has been appraised at that price, and the land will be taken up by homesteaders. Senator Lane. And that land is subject to irrigation? Mr. Meritt. The lands are subject to irrigation, and under the act which opens this reservation the white settlers will be required to pay their proportionate share of the construction charge on irrigable lands» Senator Myers. Then why not make it larger, if the whites are going to bear their proportionate share ? . > 270 INDIAlSr APPKOPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. They will have 20 years in which to pay their share, and in the meantime the resources of the Indians will be exhausted in constructing this project. The same condition exists on this res- ervation as exists on the Flathead Reservation. Senator Gronna. In other words, the whites buy land and then use their homestead right, or whatever the right may be, under the timber and stone act, and they can buy the water rights. Is that true ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator IjAne. What is this land worth under irrigation ? What would it sell for in the market ? Mr. Meritt. That is new country, and the irrigated land would* probably sell at from $40 to $50 an acre. Senator Gronna. Are the Indians satisfied to have that land thrown open to settlement by the whites ? Mr. Meritt. They have accepted allotments on that condition. The Chairman. Shall the honorable commissioner's suggestion as to that amendment be adopted ? Senator Lane. I like the amendment, but I am opposed to the whole scheme and I want to say so. I think it ought to be changed. It is wrong. The Chairman. I think you are right about it, and I presume there is nobody in the room but who agrees with you, as far as I know, but we have to meet the situation here, and I wish now to say — I do not want to reflect on those who have served in Congress in the past — but undoubtedly these men who got the scheme up did it for their white constituents and not for the Indians. (The amendment was agreed to.) The Chairman. The question is on the item as amended. The item as amended was agreed to. Mr. Meritt. I have another amendment, which reads as follows: Provided further , That the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to make allotments in accordance with the provisions of the act of May thirtieth, nineteen hun dred and eight (Twenty-fifth Statutes, page five hundred and fifty-eight), to unallotted Indians on the Fort Peck Reservation, as long as any of the surface land within said reservation remains undisposed of, such allotmetLts to be made under such rules and regulations as the Secretary of the Interior may prescribe. I would like to submit a short statement explaining the necessity for this item. The act of May 30, 1908 (35 Stat. L., 558), authorizes allotments to be made on the Fort Peck Reservation, and section 4 thereof provides that upon the completion of such allotments the surplus lands shall be classified and appraised and disposed of under the homestead law to actual settlers. In this case, as in similar cases, the department held that some definite time must be fixed for the closing of the allotment rolls in order that the classification and ap- praisement of the surplus lands could be made; it being also held that children born after the closing' of the allotment rolls are not entitled to allotments at Fort Peck. April 31, 1912 was fixed as the date for the closing of the allotment rolls. Thereafter the surplus lands were classified and appraised and the President's proclamation has been issued providing for the opening of the lands to entry May 1, 1914. Recently a delegation of Indians from the Fort Peck Reservation visited this city and requested that allotments from the surplus lands within their reservation be made to children born to members of the tribe since the closing of the prior allotment work in the field. Their reservation embraces upwards of 1,000,000 acres of sur- plus land, and recognizing their tribal right in and to the lands embraced within their reservation, no reason is seen why their request should not be complied with. As Congress has directed, however, that the allotment work be completed and the sur- INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. 271 plus lands classified, appraised, and disposed of, congressional sanction is necessary to authorize allotments to children born to members of the Fort Peck Reservation since the closing of the allotment work there. Probably 75 or 100 allotments at the outside would be made if the attached draft of legislation is enacted; the total area involved should not exceed 36,000 acres. (The item was agreed to.) The Chairman. What is the further amendment ? Senator My£rs. Yes; what is the amendment? I did not hear it. Mr. Meritt. This amendment is for the purpose of allowing the Indian children on the Fort Peck Reservation, who have been born since the closing of the allotment rolls, April 21, 1912, to receive an allotment on this reservation. There are about 75 or 100 children who have been born to Indian parents on this reservation who are without allotments. Senator Myers. There is plenty of land there for them ? Mr. Meritt. There are more than a million acres of land, and it seems an injustice to the Indians of that reservation that these Indian children who are members of that tribe should not get an allotment before all the surplus land is disposed of to white settlers. Senator Townsend. When are you going to close the rolls ? Children are being born every year. Senator Page. His recommendation was April, 1914, I think. Senator Townsend. I thought it was April, 1916. Mr. Meritt. No, sir; April, 1912. The amendment that I propose reads as f oUows : Provided further , That the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to make allotments in accordance with the provisions of the act of May thirtieth, nineteen hundred and eight (Twenty-fifth Statutes at Large, page five hundred and fifty- eight), to unallotted Indians on the Fort Peck Reservation as long as any of the sur- face land within said reservation remains undisposed of, such allotments to be made under such rules and regulations as the Secretary of the Interior may prescribe. Senator Townsend. Then I understand that before the rolls were dosed they had eliminated and left out some of the Indians who were entitled to enrollment ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; all the Indians who were born up to the date the allotment rolls were closed received allotments. The allotment rolls closed April 30, 1912. There have been about 100 children born on this reservation to Indian parents since these allotments were closed. Senator Townsend. And probably there will be a hundred or a thousand more born in the future. Mr. Meritt. As long as these Indians have surplus land to dispose of we thought it only proper that those Indians who have not land should have allotments. The Indians want these allotments made and the office beUeves it is only fair that Indians born since the closing of the roUs should be allotted. Senator Townsend. If you are quite sure the Indians want it, that is all right; but what bothers me is when are you going to have an end to the Indians coming on and getting the allotment, if chil- dren born hereafter can come in for allotment. Any kind of legis- lation that you adopt to-day would not amount to very much if you are going to add to it hereafter, year after year, children who are born. 272 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. The white people will come in and take up this sm^ plus land within the next two or three years and all the land on that reservation will have been taken up. Senator Page. And the credit therefor will go to the Indians ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Page. They own it, and why should they not say whether they will have it sold ? Senator Lane. In a few j^ears there, will be no land left to the Indians. The slate will be washed off. Senator Townsend. I do not want to wrong any Indian. If he has any property I want it to he his; but if the Indians who have the property are on the rolls and the rolls are closed — every Indian en-^ titled to it is on the roUs— if we close them, to-morrow some more children may be born, and the next year more children, and so on. When are you going to put an end to it, so that the Indian will know what belongs to him ? The Chairman. When the land is exhausted. Mr. Meritt. The Indians want this legislation, and the rolls will automatically close when there are no more surplus lands on the reservation to aUot to the children born on that reservation. Senator Townsend. You are sure the Indians want it ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Indians themselves have been in com- munication and consultation with the office, the commissioner and myself, and they earnestly ask that we endeavor to have this legisla- tion passed. The Chairman. The question is on the amendment proposed by the commissioner. (The amendment was agreed to.) Senator Myers. Mr. Meritt, there is no doubt about the greater part of this reservation being good farming land, is there ? Mr. Meritt. There is some valuable farming land on this reserva- tion, and also some valuable grazing land. Mr. Myers. I do not want anything but what is perfectly right, Mr. Chairman. I do not want to be understood as advocating any- thing here blindly, that is not right. I think you will bear witness that we questioned these Blackfeet Indians to kiiow first if they wanted more than $50,000 more for the Blackfeet, and they said no. I asked them if they were opposed to the $50,000 item, and they said no, and I told the committee if this delegation of Indians said they did not want it I would move to strike it out, and it appearing that they did not want any more, and that it was not just to give them any more, you wiU bear in mind that I did not ask any further increase in that appropriation. But this is different. I think it appeared from Mr. Meritt's statement that the white men are going to pay for their share of the irrigation — for the water put on this land. That was not the case with the Blackfeet. Senator Townsend. Do I understand you to say that in the other irrigation project the white men who got the water were not to pay anything for it ? Senator Myers. Mr. Meritt said, I beheve, that under the existing condition of the law the irrigation would have to be paid for by the Indians, and when it is thrown open — which has not been done yet — there was no provision of law wnich would require white settlers to pay their share, but we hope to remedy that. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 273 Senator La Follette. Why do we not attach a proper provision of law in this bill ? Senator Lane. That is what I want to know. Senator Myers. It is not thrown open yet. Senator La Follette. But we can provide that when it is. If anybody has '^put one over on ns" heretofore, let us get it back as quickly as we can. Mr. Meritt. In 1907 they certainly did "put one over'' on the Blackfeet Indians, and we are now trying to correct that condition. Senator La Follette. Is it being taken care of? Mr. Meritt. We wiU take care of that. Senator Myers, It appears here that it is different. I move that this appropriation be increased to SI 50, 000. Senator Page. Is there a single Indian who owns that land who does not protest against it ? Senator Myers. Wnat did the Indians say about this appropriation being more or less, Mi\ Meritt ? Mr. Meritt. The Indians on this reservation have not protested as the Indians on the Blackfeet Reservation have, largely because, I suppose, they are not familiar with the details of the method of financing this project. The project is being financed on exactly the same basis as that upon which the Flathead project is being financed. Senator Myers. But there you admit that the Indians will ulti- mately get their money back; it is just a question of time. Mr. Meritt. The Indians will ultimately get the money back; but the Indians are in this position: They are advancing money out of their tribal funds to construct an irrigation project under existing law that will ultimately irrigate land 50 per cent of which will be owned by white people. That is an injustice to the Indians because it absorbs their tribal money, so that they can not use that money for industrial purposes in preparing them to make beneficial use of their allotments. Senator Myers. I just want to say this: I do not particularly de- sire to differ from the Indian Bureau; I think they are honest: but at the same time I am not tied up to the Indian Bureau. I have my own views, and Mr. Newell having said that this could be done better and more expeditiously with a larger appropriation, I make the motion. Senator Page. That is, for an increase to $150,000 ? Senator Myers. Yes. Senator Gronna. What paragraph is this, Mr. Chairman ? The Chairman. It is item 76. Senator Gronna. Let us hear the provision again. (The provision was again read, as appears above.) Senator Gronna. Now, that means that this money can be used for the purpose of irrigating Indian land. Is that not correct, or am I mistaken ? The Chairman. If I understand the matter correctly, the land there is Indian land now. Senator Gronna. I have no objection to it, but why should we confuse the question of reds and white as long as there' are no whites there ? Mr. Meritt. The whites will be there soon after the 1st of May. 39746— PT 1—14 18 274 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. Senator Gronna. But could we under this provision use the ^i^^^y for any other purpose than the irrigation of allotted land or the Indians, when it provides that it shall be used for that purpose \ Mr. Meritt. They are irrigating land now, preparing to irrigate land now, that belongs to the Indians. We have with us Mr. Reed, of our irrigation service, and I would be glad if Mr. Reed would ex- plain that. Senator Gronna. I certainly would hke to know more about it. It says ''allotted lands to the Indians." I would like to hear from Mr. Reed upon the subject. Mr. Reed. That seems to be nothing but a construction of the bill. I do not know that I can throw any light upon it — the construction of • that language — whether it would apply to anything beyond what is actually allotted. I would not assume to pass upon that. The idea of the Indian Service in opposing further than $50,000 allotment for this year is that if we advance on the hnes now laid out, although a portion will be returned ultimately, in the meantime the Indians will have to finance, or at least have their property hypothecated for the financing of the whole scheme. Therefore their tribal funds will not be available; and while financing a scheme of this size and making the ^ land more valuable, does not at the same time reap any part of the profit. Senator Gronna. If you will pardon me, I do not think 3^ou under- stand my question — that is, I did not make it plain, so that you could understand it. The provision in the bill is this, that so much money is appropriated ''for continuing the construction of irrigation systems to irrigate the allotted lands of the Indians." Now, allotted Indian lands certainly could not mean anything else but land that has been allotted to the Indians. Mr. Reed. It would seem to me, as the language states, that the money that they are to expend under this act would have to be expended for that which is allotted. Senator Gronna. Then I am correct in m}' position. The Chairman. Yes, Senator. Mr. Reed. I am not an authority on the wording of that language. Senator Gronna. It seems to me that it is highly proper that the committee should understand the language in the bill, or at least the department ought to place its construction upon it. Senator Myers. All these items read, and have always read, the same way, to "Irrigate the allotted Indian lands." I suppose that is the whole construction of it. Senator Townsend. The commissioner says that he has a scheme that he proposes to submit to this committee this year whereby there will be justice done as between the white man and the red man. He says $50,000 will be sufficient oa these projects to keep them going until they can make this adjustment. Senator Gronna. If you will pardon me, Mr. Chairman, I simply wanted to satisfy myself whether or not I was correct in the construc- tion which I placed upon this language. I am willing to go as far as anybody to protect the rights of the Indians. These lands belong to the Indians, and they ought to have all the benefit, but I am opposed to the idea of opening up an Indian reservation and advertising to the country — that is, the railroad companies — advertise to the country INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 275 that this land was being thrown open to settlement and that some . benefit is going to accrue to other people. As a rule, men who go to the frontier are not men with money. They are poor men, and they are entitled to some consideration, and I want to know whether or not these people are going to get any benefit at all. That is the reason I asked the question. Senator Lane. There is another point that I think the committee should take into consideration ~ I do not know that it would change the law. I want to call the attention of Senator La FoUette and Senator Towns end to this matter. I think all these funds that are devoted to reclamation are not expended by the Indian Department. They are expended by the Reclamation Service. Senator Myers. Would you have Mr. Sells conduct the reclama- tion work ? Senator Lane. No; I understand all this money is expended under the Reclamation Department. Mr. Meritt. The money appropriated for Fort Peck, Flathead; and Blackfeet projects is expended under contracts made by the Secretary of the Interior with the Reclamation Service. Senator Lane. But naturally they hke to have, and I do not blame them, a good lot of work gomg on. What becomes of the land after- wards which they have no information about? We are responsible for both ends of the game and the Indian pays for it. The Chairman. The question is upon the amendment increasing this item to S150,000. (The amendment was disagreed to.) Senator Myers. I move to make it $100,000. (The amendment was disagreed to.) Senator Myers. I move to make it $50,000. The Chairman. It is $50,000. (The item was agreed to at $50,000.) The Chairman. In the future the department proposes to arrange for legislation, either on the Indian bill or otherwise so that the Indian shall only pay for that much Indian land which is irrigated, and the Indian land will in nowise be responsible for irrigated land belonging to a white man. Is that true 1 Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Gronna. In other words, the cost shall be pro rated per Acre Senator Townsend. I intend to propose an amendment to certain things in the oill. I will try to do it Monday, if it is possible for me to get down to it. ^ , . (Mr. Meritt submitted the folk wing letter from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, to be inserted in the record:) March 19, 1914. The honorable the Secretary op the Interior. Sir: Further consideration has been given the question of appropriations for the irrigation systems on the Flathead Reservation, Mont., in connection with the supple- mentary estimates submitted by the project engineer of the United States Reclama- tion Service under date of February 10, 1914 , ^ , ^. c. • + i,,- i. This work is being handled on the ground by the Reclamation Service, to which reimbursement for theTosts thereof is made by the Indian Office from appropriations reimbursable from Indian tribal funds. ^ ■,. . a ( ;i ,^f,-^„ +i,^ I am convinced that a different arrangement should be made for conductmg the work and for financing it, but the question is of such magnitude that considerable study must be made before adopting a new plan. In the meantime it would be a 276 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. mistake to stop construction, and it is thought that the work should proceed and an appropriation of $250,000 be made for the fiscal year 1915. With this appropriation it is to be understood that the work as outlined in the project engineer s estmiaie oi February 10, 1914, and as indicated on the maps S-4231, F-1386, both attached and t6 become a part of this communication, is to be done, with the mam purpose m view of bringing under irrigation as large an area as possible. To carry out this idea none of the funds are to be expended on new survejrs and designs, but all devoted to the construction work which is to increase the irrigable with the expenditure of the $250,000 the acreage under irrigation belonging to white men will be increased and more nearly equalized with that of the Indians, and the whole project will be at a stage where a change of method m handling it can be made with the least hardship to both Indian and white interests. The question of a new plan for the conduct and financing of this project and the adjudication of the rights of the various parties will be studied and recommendations presented for your consideration as soon as satisfactorily formulated, it being under- stood that all parties concerned agree that a satislactory plan be adopted for next year, and for the present year a reimbursable appropriation of sufficient amount be made for industrial advancement of these Indians. Respectfully, ^ . . (Signed) Cato Sells, Commissioner. I concur in the foregoing recommendations. (Signed) F. H. Newell, Director of the Reclamation Service. IRRIGATION OF INDIAN LANDS. The Chairman. Let us get back to item No. 2 of the printed bill, page 2; page 311 of the hearings. That is the item making an appro- priation of $345,000 for the construction, repair, and maintenance of ditches, etc. We passed that over. It is on page 31, the justifi- cation. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, this is our general irrigation item which supports our Indian irrigation service, and the Reclamation Service has nothing to do with this particular item. We are asking for the same amount that was allowed last year, and if this money is appropriated it will be used strictly to irrigate Indian land, and not a dollar of this money will go to the benefit of any white owner of land. We have asked for two important amendments to this item this year which I would like to call the attention of the committee to in order to correct the conditions that we found on taking charge of the office, and which we thought were unjust. The first amendment reads as follows: Provided further, That all moneys expended heretofore or hereafter under this pro- vision shall be reimbursable where the Indians have adequate funds to repay the (gov- ernment, such reimbursement to be made under such rules and regulations as- the Secretary of the Interior may prescribe. This is a gratuity appropriation that we are now asking. Hereto- fore certain small projects have been constructed where the Indians will be ultimately able to reimburse the Government, and we thought it only fair that these Indians, who are able to repay the Government for this construction, should reimburse the Government. The other provision reads as follows : Provided further, That the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized and directed to apportion the cost of any irrigation project constructed for Indians and made reimbursable out of tribal funds of the Indians in accordance with the benefits received by each individual Indian so far as practicable from said irrigation project, such cost to be apportioned against such individual Indian under such rules, regula- tions, and conditions as the Secretary of the Interior may prescribe. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 277 That amendment has been suggested by the Indian Office for this reason: On certain reservations the tribal funds have been used in the \ construction of irrigation projects and only a portion of the Indians on that reservation have their land irrigated by the project. Other Indians have lands located too high to l)e irrigated, and not- withstanding that fact these Indians whose lands are not irrigated, are required to pay their proportionate charge for the construction of the irrigation project which only benefits a'few. We recognize that that is an injustice, and we take this opportunity to get legislation to cure that injustice. Senator Page. Did the House do that ? Mr. Meritt. We included this legislation in our estimate, and the House allowed this item. We have another item that we would Uke to have incorporated in the bill to enable the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and I^Jembers of Congress to procure all the informa- tion possible about these irrigation projects. Heretofore, there has been a rather hazy condition existing about certain projects and we did not have accurate information until within about the last year or two about certain of these projects, and we want a law enacted that will compel the officers in the field connected with the irriga- tion projects to furnish the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Secretary of the Interior —and a law which will require the Secretary of the Interior to furnish to Members of this Congress — detailed in- formation regarding every Indian irrigation project in the United States under the control of the Secretary of the Interior and the Indian Office. This proviso reads as follows: Provided also. That the following provision contained in the act of April fourth, nineteen hundred and ten (Thirty-sixth Statutes at Large, page two hundred and seventy), "And annually thereafter the Secretary of the Interior shall transmit to Congress a cost account of all moneys, from whatever source derived, expended on each such irrigation project for the preceding fiscal year," be amended to read as follows: "And annually thereafter the Secretary of the Interior shall transmit to Congress a cost account in detail of all moneys, from whatever source derived, expended on each such irrigation project for the preceding fiscal year, which shall show the number of Indians on the reservation where the land is irrigated, irrigable area under ditch, irrigable area under project (approximate), imgable area cultivated by Indians, irrigable area cultivated by lessees, amount expended on construction to June thir- tieth of the preceding fiscal year, amount necessary to complete, and cost per acre when completed (estimated); value of land when irrigated, and such other detailed information as may be requisite for a thorough understanding of the conditions on each system or project." We realize that that is going to place upon the Indian Office certain additional work, but we think it will be of benefit to the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs and the Secretary of the Interior and the administrative officials of that bureau, and will also be of great benefit to the members of the House and Senate committees on Indian Affairs and to Members of Congress generally. Senator Gronna. That contemplates the transferring of irrigation, as I understand it, from the irrigation bureau, or the Reclamation Bureau, to the Indian Office? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Lane. No; it contemplates making a full accounting to this committee. Senator Gronna. What is that to be used for? 278 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. It is for the purpose of paying salaries of the present employees of the Indian Service who are connected with the Indian irrigation service, and for the purpose of constructing small irrigation projects on the reservations, mostly in the Southwest — ^in New Mexico, Arizona, and California, and certain other States. Senator Gronna. How much of it will be used in the construction of irrigation projects ? Mr. Meritt. We have a detailed justification for this item, which is to be found in the House hearings beginning on page 31. You will find, on pages 33 and 34, a detailed statement as to how we expect to spend every dollar of this appropriation. Senator Lane. I read that very carefully, Senator Gronna. It seems to be taking care of a lot of Indians down there v/ho need it, and the project seems to be a very good one. Senator Myers. You say it would not take away from the Recla- mation Service any power it now has ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; this will not affect the Reclamation Service in the least, except that we will be able to get certain data that we would like to have. Senator Gronna. Is it in any respect changing existing law? Mr. Meritt. It enlarges existing law so that we can get more information than we have been getthig under the act referred to that we propose to amend. We have Mr. Reed here who is in charge of the Indian irrigation work, and if there are any additional questions relating to this item we will be glad to have him explain them to the committee. Senator Page. Mr. Chairman^ I have been here for two hours and I am going to make a motion that the committee do now adjourn until to-morrow at 2 o'clock. (The motion was not agreed to.) The Chairman. Mr. Commissioner, you have proposed three amendments to the bill. Senator Townsend. Are those amendments already in the bill ? Mr. Meritt. Two amendments are in the bill and have been adopted by the House. The last amendment I have read is to be found on page 84 of the hearings. Senator Townsend. I move that the last amendment be adopted. The motion was agreed to, and the amendment was adopted. Senator Townsend. Mr. Commissioner, do you include in that amendment also that they shall report the number of acres on these reservations that are farmed or cultivated by white men ? Mr. Meritt. We intended to get that in, Senator. Senator Townsend. I do not think you did. If you did not, I would like to have that in the amendment. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; that is in the item. The Chairman. The question is on the adoption of the paragraph as amended. (The paragraph as amended was agreed to.) The (Jhairman. There are some other items in this bill covering the irrigation system-^Item 149, page 56 of the printed bill, covering the irrigation system of the Uncompagre, Uintah and White River Utes in Utah, $40,000. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, that item had been adopted. INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. 275 IRRIGATION SYSTEM, YAKIMA INDIANS, WASHINGTON. The Chairman. The next item is 106, page 57 of the printed com- parison, as follows: For extension and manitenance of the irrigation system on lands allotted to Yakima Indians in Washington, $15,000, reimbursable in accordance with the provisions of the act of March first, nineteen huadred and seven. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, in view of the fact that Senator Rob- inson was chairman of the committee that investigated the Yakima irrigation project, I would like to have that item passed over until he is present. The Chairman. Without objection, that action will be taken. IRRIGATION OF SHOSHONE OR WIND RIVER RESERVATION, WYO. The Chairman. The next item is No, 168, page 61 of the printed bill, as follows : For continuing the work of constructing an irrigation system within the diminished Shoshone or Wind River Reservation in Wyoming, including the maintenance and operation of completed canals, |25,000, reimbursable in accordance with the pro- visions of the act of March third, nineteen hundred and five, and to remain available until expended. Mr. Meritt. The House allowed us our estimates on that item, $25,000, and we would like to have the proviso clause protecting the water rights of the Indians added to this item. I would hke to read it to the committee. It is as follows: . / Provided, That the use of so much water as may be necessary to supply for domestic, stock watering, and irrigation purposes, land allotted or to be allotted to Indians on the diminished Shoshone or Wind River Reservation, in Wyoming, or set aside for adminis- trative purposes within said reservation is hereby reserved, and the failure of any individual Indian or Indians to make beneficial use of such water shall not operate in any manner to defeat his or her right thereto while said land is held in trust by the United States. All laws and parts of laws in conflict herewith are hereby repealed. We have heretofore justified the need of this legislation. Senator Lane. This goes to the benefit of that area that is already under irrigation. I notice that the Indians are cultivating 5,000 acres of land, and the whites are cultivating 7,000 acres of land which they own, and it is the same thing that applies all the way down the line. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; this project was constructed by the Recla- mation Service on the same identical basis as that on which the Fort Peck, Blackfeet, and Flathead projects are being constructed. Senator Lane. Will these Indians lose their rights in a short time if we do not protect them ? Mi\ Meritt. These Indians will lose theh water rights unless we have this legislation enacted. Senator Townsend. I move that the amendment be adopted. (The amendment was agreed to.) The Chairman. The question is on the item as amended. The item as amended was agreed to. Mr. Meritt. In order to strengthen this item I would like to refer to the decision of the Supreme Court in the Winters case, volume 207, page 564, and also the Conrad case, reported in 156 Federal, 123. We have the syllabus in both cases found in the House hearings on pages 705 and 706. The Chairman. Does that relate to the Wind River Reservation ? 280 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Ml*. Meritt. That relates to the general water right situation and in support of this proviso clause that we have asked be incorporated in the bill, and which this committee has adopted. I have prepared a memorandum in support of this proposed legislation to protect water rights of the Indians which is found on pages 378 and 379 of the House hearings. Senator Lane. "Is that the one you submitted some time ago ? Ml'. Meritt. No, sir; I have not called attention to this matter heretofore. Senator Lane. Is it one you submitted some time ago to some other Secretary of the Interior ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; it is found, as I say, on pages 378 and 379 of, the House hearings. Senator Townsend. In general remarks. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. I simply want to call attention to it so that it may be referred to in the House hearings. If there is no ob- jection, I would be glad to have it incorporated in this hearing. It only covers a page and a half. The Chairman. If there is no objection, those two pages will be incorporated in the record. The memorandum referred to by Mr. Meritt reads as follows : The purpose of this and other similar legislation in this bill is to protect the, rights of Indians to water on Indian reservations and on allotted Indian lands held under trust or by other patents containing restrictions on alienation. To establish more certainly and securely water rights of Indians is a matter of the greatest importance in administering satisfactorily their affairs. On a number of reservations where Indians have been allotted, the land is practically of no value for agricultural purposes without irrigation. Water on these reservations is a vital factor in developing the Indians living thereon so that they may become self-supporting and be raised to a higher standard of civilization . The Supreme Court, in the case of Winters v. United States (207 U.S., 564), said that "The power of the Government to reserve waters and exempt them from appropria- tion under the State laws is not denied, and could not be." The Supreme Court further said in tliis case that there was an implied reservation for the benefit of the Indians of a sufficient amount of water from the Milk River for irrigation purposes which was not affected by the subsequent act of February 22, 1889 (25 Stat. L., 676), admitting Monti^na to the Union, and that the water of the Milk River can not be diverted so as to prejudice the rights of the Indians by settlers on the public lands and those claiming riparian rights on that river. It is believed that the general principles laid down in the Win.ters case are appli- cable to all Indian reservations where there are no specific acts of Congress to the contrary. However, I find that the very favorable decision of the Supreme Court in the ^\ Inters case regarding the water rights of Indians has been practically nullified by various acts of ( -ongress, and as a result of such legislation the water rights of In- dian'^ are now dependent on beneficial use in a number of reservations where the Government has been, and is now, spending large amounts of reimbiu'sable funds, and by acts of Congress these water rights are subject to the lawv^ of scAeral the States wherein these u'rigation projects are located. In substantiation of this statement your attention is invited to acts of Congress regarding the water rights in connection with the Blackfeet, Fort Peck, ^\'ind River, and Uintah Reservations. The act of March 1, 1907, (34 Stat. L., 1015, 1035) regnrding water rights on the Blackfeet Reservation provides: "That the Indians and the settlers on the surplus land, in the order named, shall have a preference right for one year from the date of the President's proclamation opening the reservation to settlement to appropriate the waters of the reservation, which shall be filed on and appropriated under the laws of the State of Montana by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs on behalf of the Indians taking irrigable allot- ments and by the settlers under the same laws." The act ofMay 30, 1908 (35 Stat. L., 558, 5G0), referring to the same subject on the Fort Peck Reservation, reads: INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. . 281 ' " All appropriations of the waters of the reservation shall be made under the provi- 'sions of the laws of the State of Montana." The law applicable to the Wind River Reservation, act of March 3, 1905 (33 Stat. L., 1016, 1020), is as fo lows: "That upon the comp etion of the said fifty dollars per capita paymeht any balance remaining in the said fund of eighty-five thousand dollars shall at once become avail- able and shall be devoted to surveying, platting, making of maps, payment of the fees, and the performance of such acts as are required by the statutes of the State of Wyo- ming in securing water rights from said State for the irrigation of such lands as shall remain the property of said Indians, whether located within the territory intended to be ceded Dy this agreement or within the diminished reserve." The law of Congress regarding the water rights on the Uintah Reservation is found in the act of June 21, 1906 (34 Stat. L., 335, 375), and reads: "For constructing irrigation systems to irrigate the allotted lands of the XJncom- pahgre, Uintah, and White River Utes in Utah, the limit of cost of which is hereby fixed at six hundred thousand dollars, one hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars which shall be immediately available, the cost of said entire work to be reimbursed from the proceeds of the sale of the lands within the former Uintah Reservation: Provided, That such irrigation systems shall be constructed and completed and held and operated, and water therefor appropriated under the laws of the State of Utah." The amount of money expended up to Junje 30, 1913, for irrigation for the benefit of the Indians on the reservations referred to is as follows: Fort Hall $913, 601. 32 Blackfeet 710, 745. 80 Port Peck 219, 471. 29 Wind River 647, 215. 98 Uintah. 830, 489. 41 Total 3, 321, 523. 80 I have quoted the laws referred to and shown the money expended on the reserva- tions named in order to indicate the great importance of the matter under considera- tion and the necessitv^ of conserving the water rights of Indians on the large number of Indian reservations throughout the United States. The Indian water-right situation is one of the most acute and important questions relating to Indian matters now before the Indian Bureau. There are dependent upon the solution of this question nob only property rights involving millions cf dol- lars, but the success or failure, prosperity or poverty, of thousands of Indians who are the wards of the Government and whose interests it is the duty oi the Indian Bureau to protect. The Chairman. Senators, that finishes our irrigation items except items 150 and 156. Wliat is the disposition of the committee now? Senator Lane. I move that the committee do now adjourn. (The motion was agreed to, and at 4 o'clock and 20 minutes p. m. the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Saturday, March 28, 1914, at 2 o'clock p. m.) SATURDAY, MARCH 28, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Ashurst (chairman), Myers, Lane, Robinson, Clapp, Page, Gronna, Townsend, and Fall. MINNESOTA CHIPPEWA SCHOOL AT WHITE EARTH. Senator Clapp. Mr. Chairman, I desire to offer the following amendment to the amendment on page 23 of the bill. After the words ''five thousand dollars" add ''fivQ hundred dollars," so that it will read, ''five thousand five hundred dollars, or so much thereof as may be necessary," etc., and then add at the end of the paragraph, after the word "affairs:" Provided, That not to exceed $500 of this sum may be used to continue the educa- tion of boys appointed under the provisions of the act of Congress making appro- 282 INDIAN APPEOPKIATION BILL. priations for the current and contingent expenses of the Bureau of Indian Affairs^ for fulfilling treaty stipulations with various Indian tribes, and for other purposes, for the fiscal year ending June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and fourteen, approved June thirtieth, nineteen nundred and thirteen. Last year we approj^riated $4,000 to be used for the education of boys in higher education under the old treaty. Now, seven boys were appointed, and one of them graduates this year; one other has two years more, and the other five are on the second year of the high- school course. Now that led to some confusion. More boys wanted to go than could go ; so that instead of continuing that appropriation it was thought better to have the provision read $5,000 for employ- ment of teachers at the high school right on the reservation at White Earth, so that the children of all tribes could come there and get an education. That would leave one of those boys who has got two more years in the course without any provision being made, so I have added not more than $500 to be used to continue the education of boys appointed under this act of last year. Mr. Meritt. That amendment is acceptable to the Indian Office. (The amendment was agreed to.) IRRIGATION, YAKIMA RESERVATION, WASH. The Chairman. Senator Robinson, yesterday we passed all the irrigation items except two, one being item No. 156, page 57, relating to the irrigation of the Yakima Reservation, Wash. The joint commission of which you are chairman we loiow has been investigating Yakima and we thought you might want to be here when we were considering that. The item is as follows: For extension and maintenance of the irrigation system on lands allotted to Yakima Indians in Washington, $15,000, reimbursable in accordance with the provisions of the act of March first, nineteen hundred and seven. Senator Robinson. Senator Jones has introduced a bill which recognizes the principles of the recommendation which our joint commission made. I suppose this estimate and recommendation were made up before that report was made, probably. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. I think we had better pass that and have Senator Jones present when we consider it. Mr. Meritt. We will need this specific appropriation without regard to Senator Jones's amendment. Senator Robinson. This much is true, the recommendation which we make will probably require additional legislation, and I do not know but what it might be best to proceed independently of that at present. Senator Page. Do you move that we make this appropriation $15,000? Senator Robinson. No; T do not. Mr. Meritt, what do you pro- pose to do with this appropriation? Mr. Meritt. This appropriation is simply for the purpose of maintaining an irrigation system now on the Indian reservation. Senator Robinson. I think that is true, because the system we proposed will take some time to put it in operation. Mr. Meritt. This is reimbursable, and the House has allowed our estimate. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 283^ Senator Lane. This is to take care of all the land under the irri- gation system there ? Mr. Meritt. This is for the purpose of maintaining the ditch on the Yakima Keservation which irrigates the Indian land. Senator Lane. For the Indians only ? Mr. Meritt. Some white men have made purchases from the allotments on that reservation. Senator Lane. I notice in this table that the acres cultivated by the Indians are 5,350, while the acres cultivated by the whites are 29,454. That is about six times as much. Is this to be used for the joint benefit of all these people ? If it is, ought it not to be for the support and civilization of the white men ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; it is strictly an Indian appropriation for the purpose of maintaining the irrigation ditches on this reservation which are for the purpose of irrigating Indian land. Senator Lane. Exclusively? Mr. Meritt. Not exclusively; some of the white people have pur- chased there. Senator Page. You say on land allotted to the Yakima Indians ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. I know that; but here are 29,000 acres of the Yakima Reservation cultivated by the whites, and only about 5,000 cultivated by the Indians, and I want to know if it is to maintain irrigation on all of this land ? ^ Mr. Meritt. The white men will be required to pay their propor- tionate charge of the maintenance of the ditches. The whites have purchased about 18,000 acres of Indian land on this reservation. The whites also lease certain Indian land, which runs the total up to 29,454 acres. Senator Lane. The reason I called attention to it was that under your justification for spending this money — or the apparent justifi- cation — I find this fact, or what purports to be a fact, that the Indians cultivate only about 5,000 acres, and if that is a justification for it the money must be appropriated principally for the benefit of the whites. Mr. Meritt. We are trying to work out the proposition now that will protect the water rights of these Indians. Senator Robinson's commission went out there and made an investigation. This is simply for the purpose of mabitaining the irrigation system on this reservation until after this project is worked out. We have with us Mr. Reed, out irrigation engineer, and I wiU be glad to have the committee ask him any questions they may desire. 'Senator Lane. Very well; I will ask Mr. Reed. Is it a fact that with respect to this appropriation of $15,000, to take care of the irrigation system on the lands in the Yakima Reservation, that 29,000 acres of the land are now being irrigated by the whites, and only about 5,000 acres by the Indians ? Mr. Reed. I can give you that exactly. The Indians irrigate all their own land, 4,900 acres. Senator Lane. Those that are cultivated, I mean. Mr. Reed. Yes, cultivated, and the whites of their own land, 8,900. The whites lease of the Indian lands 19,263 acres. Senator Lane. Where do you find that here ? Is that in this book ? 284 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Reed. No; it does not come in there. It comes from notes on which that was made up. Senator Robinson. How is this S15,000 to be expended? Have you an itemized statement? Mr. Reed. It is to be used for maintenance and operation. Senator Robinson. Is it for the maintenance of such features of the system that you calculate shall be permanent when the project is extended so as to provide water for the irrigable land on the reserva- tion? Mr. Reed. It is to provide water for lands that are now under cul- tivation. Senator Robinson. I understand that, but do you provide now* for extension and mxaintenance ? Mr. Reed. Not with that $15,000. We could not expect to make any extensions. Senator Robinson. I understand that. But it clearly appeared from our investigation, and from the recommendations by your department and the Reclamation Service, heretofore made, that if your plans are carried out in establishing a permanent system of reclamation a large part of the work now in existence would be abandoned or destroyed. What I want to know is, Are you going to use this $15,000 on work that will probably be abandoned when you put in the complete system on the reservation ? Mr. Reed. Partially. Senator Robinson. Do you know about how much of that would go that way? Mr. Reed. No; I could not say exactly; the pro rata Senator Robinson. Suppose you had $15,000, what would you do with it ? Mr. Reed. We would employ men to look after the ditches during the irrigation season, to divert and turn the water to the farmers who are farming, and to any minor repairs as they are necessitated. Senator Robinson. How much of it is going to pay for the actual work of distributing the water on the present system, and how much is to be devoted to the extension of the system — how much of this $15,000? Mr. Reed. It is not contemplated to devote anything to extension; it is just for maintenance. Senator Robinson. But the item says ''For extension and. main- tenance.'' Mr. Reed. The word "extension," might be stricken out. Senator Robinson. That is what confused me. I want to know whether you are insisting upon going ahead now and extending the present system and make a complete system. This is for mainte- nance and operation? Mr. Reed. Yes, sir; maintenance and operation. Senator Robinson. And you say some inconsiderable repairs that are necessary. Mr. Reed. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. It is true that some of the ditches there are in a bad state of repair. Mr. Reed. Some of the gates, which are of wood, occasionally wash out. There are over 40 miles of canals there to look after. Senator Robinson. Yes; I have been all over it. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 285 Mr. Meritt. We would have no objection to changing the word ''extension," in line 5, to ''operation," making it read: "For opera- tion and maintenance of irrigation system," etc. Senator Robinson. I think that would be better, unless you really mean to use the money for extension. That is what confused me. Ml'. Chairman, I move that the item be agi^eed to with that amend- ment. (The motion was agreed to and the item was approved.) FORT HALL (iDAHO) IRRIGATION SYSTEM. The Chairman. The next item is No. 50, page 22 of the bill, dis- cussed at page 374 of the House hearings, as foUows: For maintenance and operation of the Fort Hall irrigation system, $20,000, reim- bursable to the United States out of any funds of the Indians occupying the Fort Hall Reservation now or hereafter available. 'Mr. Meritt. We estimated for $40,000 for maintenance and oper- ation of the Fort Hall irrigation system, and the House allowed us $20,000. We will be satisfied with $30,000. The justification for the item is found on page 375, beginning on page 374 of the hearings. This appropriation will be used very largely in maintaining and improving or repairing the ditches in order to get water on the land of the Indians. The project is practically completed. Senator Lane. How much have you spent on it ? Mr. Meritt. We have spent $800,000. We spent about $770,000 up to June 30, 1913. Senator Lane. When was it started ? Mr. Meritt. About five or six years ago. Senator Lane. How long have the Indians to run now before they lose their water rights ? Mr. Meritt. We have a provision in this item to protect their water rights, if we can get it adopted by the committee. Senator Lane. I notice by the statistics there that the whites have under cultivation about twice as much as the Indians. Is that land leased to them by the Indians ? Mr. Meritt. This is a project that we were discussing the other day where the whites got their land irrigated for something hke $6 an acre under a law passed by Congress. The Senator from that State was somewhat successful in getting very favorable legislation for his constituents. Senator Lane. This was done at the expense of the Indians — this irrigation of the white man's land ? i. i tt • j Mr Meritt. No, sir; it was done at the expense of the United States Treasury. , ^ ^ . ^ Senator Robinson. Do you think $30,000 would be enough to enable you to do this ? Mr. Meritt. I think we can get along with $30,000. Senator Page. He says that he proposes an amendment. Do you propose to amend this particular item of this bill ? Mr Meritt. We would like to have inserted, after the word ''available", on line 10, on page 22, the foUowing: Provided That the use of so much water as may be necessary to supply for domestic, Ifeck-watering, and irrigation purposes, land allotted or to be allotted to Indians on tiie Fort Hall Keservation or set aside for administrative purposes withm said reserva- "286 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. tion, is hereby reserved, and the failure of any individual Indian or Indiana to make "beneficial use of such water shall not operate in any manner to defeat his or her right thereto. All laws or parts of laws in conflict herewith are hereby repealed. Senator Page. I move that the amendment be adopted. The motion was agreed to and the amendment was adopted. The Chairman. The question is on the adoption of the paragraph as amended. , Senator Lane. I would hke to ask a question or two. There have been $800,000 expended there on behalf of the Indians for irrigation. Are they making successful use of the plant? Mr. Meritt. The $800,000 was expended partly for the whites. Senator Lane. How much of the Indians' money has been spent^, about? Mr. Reed. This is all by appropriation of Congress; the entire amount. There are about 12,700 acres, to be exact, for the white man who comes under that $6 rate, and that $6 will go back into the Treasury for repayment toward the cost. Senator Lane. How are the Indians getting along with their farming ? Mr. Reed. The Indians last year were in better shape than they have ever been before. They have taken hold of the work and shown more interest in irrigation. Previous to that time they have been as energetic in the pursuit of farming as could be desired, but this last year they have picked up considerably. Senator Lane. Have they all the necessary farming implements to farm with? Mr. Reed. I think not. They need further aid in that way. Senator Lane. Is there any provision for giving them that assist- ance ? Have you an item with respect to that, Mr. Meritt ? Mr. Meritt. We are asking for an item for these Indians of S50,000, and the committee has allowed it. Senator Lane. But it has not passed as yet. Mr. Meritt. We hope to get it, Senator. I mean to say that we have a real live superintendent on this reservation, who is improving very materially the conditions of the Indians. He is getting them to do some real work on their allotments, and the conditions are hopeful. The Chairman. The question is on the adoption of the item at $30,000, as amended. (The item was agreed to.) YAKIMA RESERVATION. The Chairman. Mr. Commissioner, do you want to propose some amendment to that Yakima item, the same amendment that we have been adopting, which provides that the Indians shall lose no rights by reason of lapse on their part ? Senator Robinson. I think it would be a very good thing to put it in there. It might raise quite an issue, but I would try it. Mr. Meritt. We would be glad to have this proviso clause in that item. Senator Robinson. It may go out on a point of order, but I would like to see it in this item. I tliink it is necessary to have it because it will take some time to get the necessary legislation. It is a very complicated question, and one that has aroused considerable anxiety INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 287 and antagonism in the local communities. I move that the same amendment be inserted in connection with the Yakima items. The Chairman. To go at the end of line 8, page 57. The propo- sition is to adopt the same language as was used in the case of the Fort Hall item. (The amendment was agreed to.) Mr. Meritt. I might say, before we leave this Yaldma item, that this is another case where the Indians have been practically robbed of their water rights, and if it had not been for the work of this com- inission appointed to investigate the conditions out there it is pos- sible that the Indians would have lost water rights valued at over $2,000,000. The Chairman. You refer to the joint commission of which Senator Eobinson is chairman ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Page. That opens a big question. I would like to know why we can not adopt some sweeping legislation which will prevent that kind of practice. Mr. Meritt. We are tr3ang to get legislation into this bill, and if certain interests that are trying to get hold of the water rights of the Indians are successful in making points of order on these items and getting thein out of the Indian bill, we have legislation prepared which we will bring to this committee and try to get through as a separate bill. Senator Robinson. If that amendment that we are writing in most of these items had been a law from tho beginning of the making of these projects we would have escaped, in my judgment, a large part of the difficulties that now confront us with reference to read- justing the rights of Indians that have been sacrificed. These water rights are determined largely under local State laws and the doc- trine of prior appropriation is the one that governs most cases. Sometimes treaty stipulations, as in the Yakima case, are of great importance, but it is always an important considt ration to consult the local laws by which these waters and prior rights to them are secured by settlers. Some of the most comphcated questions con- nected with the Indian Service grow out of this very featm-e. Senator Clapp. And it is going to be hard to get the legislation^ although we may be able to keep it on the bill. The Chairman. I see that the honorable commissioner's estimate providsd for the amendments in aU th3se cases, but the Houso has stricken them out. Senator Robinson. That was probably due to the fact that it was subject to a point of order, and they did not care to take the risk. Mr. Meritt. The House committee adopted this amendment, but the item went out on a point of order made by Representative Mon- dell of Wyoming. Senator Robinson. If we reinsert them here and anybody makes a point of order they are not subject to that point of order. Senator Clapp. Not after they come back from conference. Mr. Meritt. The history of the legal rights of the Yakima Indians is found, beginning with page 147 of the report of the joint commis- sion of which Senator Robinson is chairman, Senate Document 337, Sixty-third Congress, second session. 288 INDIAN APPEOPBIATION BILL, HEALTH ITEMS. The Chairman. We will now take up the health items. Senator Robinson. Mr. Chairman, the committee is not ready to. report. Senators Lane and Town^end and I have not had a chance to get together as yet. SURVEY, CLASSIFICATION, ETC., OF LANDS IN SEVERALTY. The Chairman. The next item is on page 2 of the comparison, as follows: For the survey, resurvey, classification, appraisement, and allotment of lands in severalty under the provisions of the act of February eighth, eighteen hundred and eighty-seven, entitled " An act to provide for the allotment of lands in severalty to Indians, ' ' and under any other act or acts providing for the survey and allotment of lands in severalty to Indians; and for the survey ahd subdi\dsions of Indian reserva- tions and lands to be allotted to Indians under authority of law, $150,000, to be repaid proportionately out of any Indian moneys held in trust or otherwise by the United States and available by law for such reimbursable purpose and to remain available until expended. Senator Clapp. Mr. Chairman, the commissioner has an amendment' to offer to that item. Mr. Meritt. The amendment which I would like to have inserted is after the word ''expended," in line 14, page 2, as follows: For the survey, resurvey, classification, allotment, and disposal under the provisions' of the act of February eighth, eighteen hundred and eighty-seven (Twenty-fourth Statutes at Large, page three hundred and eighty-eight), entitled "An act to provide for the allotment of lands in severalty to Indians," and under any other act or acts providing for the survey, allotment, or disposal of Indian lands, $200,000, to be repaid proportionately out of any Indian moneys held in trust or otherwise by the United States and available by law for such reimbursable purposes and to remain available until expended: Provided, That hereafter no part of said sum shall be used for the survey, resurvey, classification, appraisement, or allotment of any land in severalty upon the public domain to any Indian, whether of the Navajo or other tribes, within the State of New Mexico and the State of Arizona, who was not residing on the public domain prior to June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and thirteen: Provided further, That the surveys shall be made in accordance with the provisions for the survey and resurveys of public lands, including traveling expenses and per diem allotments in lieu of subsistence to those employed thereon; and when necessary the Secretary of the Interior may employ in the city of Washington, District of Colimibia, such assist- ants as are required in the preparation of the final returns of the surveys of Indian lands made under the direction of the Commissioner of the General Land Office. This amendment is necessary because of the decision of the comp- troller wherein he holds that this appropriation, after next July, will be permitted to be used for the paying of certain salaries of em- ployees in the General Land Office engaged on this work, and we are aslang on behalf of the General Land Office, which is charged under the law with the duty of making surveys of Indian lands — to get this' item in the bill. The officials of the General Land Office, I believe, have spoken to Senator Clapp about it, and he can make any addi- tional statement with regard to it that may be necessary. Senator Clapp. I have no sta|,ement to make. You have covered the point already presented to vae. They ask to have it. The Chairman. This item will be pa,ssed temporarily until Senator Fall is present. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 289 PER CAPITA EXPENDITURE IN INDIAN SCHOOLS. The Chairman. The next item is No. 8, page 8 of the printed com- parison, discussed at page 168 of the hearings, as follows: All moneys appropriated herein for school purposes among the Indians may be ex- pended, without restriction as to per capita expenditure, for the annual support and education of any one pupil in any school. Mr. Meritt. This is no appropriation; it is simply for the purpose of extending the item that has been in the Indian bill for several years. A few years ago there was a law in effect which prohibited the expenditure of more than $167 per pupil per annum. On ac- count of the high cost of living and other conditions it has been found impracticable to maintain the pupils in non-Indian reservation schools and supply them with food and clothing and other expenses and give them an education at the rate of $167. ^ The Chairman. That was in the bill last year ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Page. What sum is required ? Mr. Meritt. The amount required now, when schools are run on an economical basis, is about $200. We have some large schools where they are run on a lower basis than that, but the average cost ?ier capita is about $200 in the Indian Service in the nonreservation ndian schools. Senator Lane. How does that compare with the schools on the outside — the white schools, boarding schools ? Mr. Meritt. I have been told that it is more than $300. Senator Lane. Why is that; do they feed them better than you do, or give them better bedding ? Mr. Meritt. They probably wear better clothes. Senator Lane. Did you ever sleep on one of those Carlisle School mattresses ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Lane. Would you, if I. should get you one? Mr. Meritt. Not as a regular thing. Senator. The Chairman. Is there any objection to this item? Senator Page. We have had a limitation. Ought we not to have some limitation now ? Senator Lane. It is wide open now. What is your average, Mr. Meritt^ — do you know what it ought to be ? Mr. Meritt. It ought to be about $200. Senator Lane. About $200 ? Mr. Meritt. Yes. There is necessarily a limitation because of the appropriations. These reservation schools are specifically appropri- ated for and, of course, we must continue the schools within the appropriations. ,. . . Senator Page. It seems to me you ought to make a lunitation, even if we make it $200. Senator Lane. I do not believe in that, and I will tell you why. I think that we ought to make, a lump-sum appropriation, and give them large liberty to expend it and make the savino;s where they can and where they can not and are forced to do so, to allow them to make larger expenditures. If they are conscientious they will make a good showmg. If you limit them to a hard and fast rule of expenditure it does not allow them that elasticity in using it to the best advantage, 39746— PT 1—14 19 290 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. which in fakness ought to be allowed them if they are good admmis- trative officials. Senator Page. We have made limitations beyond which they could not go. I am the last man to restrict any appropriation for expend- itures in schools. I think you will find my record good as to that. I would like to see the Indians have all the advantage of school facili- ties possible, but I believe it is wise to have some limitation. Mr. Meritt. We have with us Gen. Pratt, the father of Indian education, we might say, and I would be glad if he would say some- thing upon this matter, if it is agreeable to the committee. STATEMENT OF BRIG. GEN. RICHARD H. PRATT, UNITED STATES ARMY, RETIRED. Gen. Pratt. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I entirely agree with what Senator Lane has said, that there should be freedom with regard to expenditures, and with the care that is taken in the office and the good management that they have there now I believe you can very safely give them the greatest possible freedom. I do not know but very few instances where the schools have not all tried to be economical. Certainly at Carlisle, when I was there, I ran the school as low as it was possible for me to do so, squeezing every dollar until the eagle screamed, and sometimes got a very low annual per capita off; but things are very much higher now all over the country, and $167 is not enough. I think that $200 is small. Girard College, with 1,500 students, all boys, have over $300 — very much over $300 sometimes — and it is wise to be liberal. The Govern- ment of the United States is a great Nation, and this is a great propo- sition that you are undertaking, and it ought to be equally consistent in its general purpose. Senator Lane. I do not think a low per capita cost is any test at all of efficiency. Quite frequently it is a reflection upon the management when one comes to check it out. Senator Page. I am still unconvinced, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to have an opportunity to make my record on that. Senator Robinson. I would like to ask a question before you go on, Senator. What is the theory of the office about this matter ? Does the office think there ought to be no maximum limit 1 Mr. Meritt. The office is of the belief that there should be no maximum limit, but that Congress should hold the office strictly accountable for the economical administration of this fund. Senator Lane. And for all expenditures. Senator Eobinson. What has been the per capita limit at the Cushman School during the last few years ? Mr. Meritt. There has been no per capita limit so far as the law is concerned, but that school has been very extravagantly managed. The cost has been something over $225, I think. Senator Robinson. What is the per capita limit at Riverside? Mr. Meritt. There is no per capita limit in any of our nonreserva- tion schools. Senator Robinson. What does this apply to — what has it applied to heretofore? Mr. Meritt. This is removing the per capita limit Senator Robinson. What does it apply to ? INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. * 291 Mr. Meritt. It applies to all our nonreservation schools. Senator Robinson. I think we had better look into that a Httle. Senator Page. I am not seeking to limit it, except if we limit it to $167 I would hke to have in place of $167 the figures $200 inserted by some amendment, and let us not go beyond that. Senator Robinson. Has it been found to be too little? Mr. Meritt. $167 is too Httle under the present conditions. This limitation of $167 was fixed a number of years ago Gen. Pratt. In 1882 or 1883. Air. Meritt. When the prices were about 50 per cent lower than they are now. Senator Robinson. Do you not believe that if the per capita limit is removed they will have the same conditions in the reservation schools as we have in the nonreservation schools — a wide divergence in the cost or the average per capita cost ? Mr. Meritt. There will be necessarily a divergence of per capita cost on account of local conditions; on account of the number of pupils attending the school, and also on account of the ability and efficiency of the superintendent in charge. Senator Lane. You can conduct a school at an expense of from 20 to 30 per cent less in the Willamette Valley in Oregon than you can a similar school located, say, in the desert portion of Nevada, where you have to buy all your vegetables and pay the cost of their transportation. Senator Robinson. That is undoubtedly true. Mr. Meritt. The office would prefer there should be no limitation, but would have the office held strictly accountable for economical administration. Senator Robinson. I am willing to try it, but I am very much afraid it is going to give you lots of trouble. Mr. Meritt. We have had this same provision for a number of years in the Indian bill, and in our tables we showed a per capita cost at each nonreservation school, and we will do that hereafter. Senator Robinson. It has been satisfactory, has it? Mr. Meritt. It has been satisfactory, but it has cost the Govern- ment more to run these nonreservation schools, because we found it impossible to keep the cost down to $167 per capita. Senator Page. Do you mean to say that you have been violating the law in regard to that ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; the law has been waived by this proviso clause in the Indian bill since the fiscal year 1911. Senator Page. And you have renewed it every time ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. They have to on account of increased cost. Senator Robinson. I move that the amendment be agreed to. (The amendment was agreed to and the paragraph as amended was agreed to.) SURVEY, CLASSIFICATION, ETC., LANDS IN SEVERALTY. The Chairman. Senator Fall is now present, and we will take up item No. 1, on page 2 of the bill. Senator Fall, do you wish to pro- pose any amendment? 292 • INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. Senator Fall. I want to call the attention of the committee to the item for the Albuquerque Indian school. Senator Page. Does this item No. 1 relate to that? Senator Fall. I do not know just what that is. The Chairman. It is a general provision for the survey, resurvey^ classification, appraisement, and allotment of lands in severalty, etc. Senator Fall. That provision last year carried a provision ex- cepting from its operations Arizona and New Mexico, teniporarily. I would like to have that exception continued until the Indian ques- tion is settle some way with us. There is no immediate necessity for appropriating any additional lands to Indians in New Mexico, is there % Mr. Meritt. There is no immediate necessity of settling any In- dians upon any additional lands in New Mexico, but we have a large number of Indians who have left their reservations on account of unfavorable conditions, and have taken up land on the public domain, and those Indians have not yet received patent to their allotments. Under the proviso clause as contained in the bill of last year the office was not able to issue trust patents to those Indians. The pro- viso clause that I refer to reads as follows: Provided, That no part of said sum shall be used for survey, resurvey, classification, appraisement, or allotment of any land in severalty upon the public domain to any Indian, whether of the Navajo or other tribes, within the State of New Mexico and the State of Arizona. We have about 5,000 Indians who have left the Navajo Reserva- tion and who have taken up homes on the public domain. Under this law we are without authority to protect the interests of those Indians who have already left the reservation. Senator Fall. Under the treaty with the Navajo Indians you have a treaty against their acquiring land on the public domain, have you not? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; there is no provision which prohibits that. On the contrary, we have a law which allows Indians to go on the public domain. Senator Fall. I know you have that law, but you have a treaty with the Navajos. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Fall. And under the treaty with the Navajos they agreed that they would not avail themselves of any privilege by virtue of having the large acreage set aside to them, which they did have; that they would not avail themselves, as I understand it, of the permission to go upon the public domain. Mr. Meritt. I know of no such treaty provision. As I say, on the contrary, we have allowed a number of Indians to go on the pubhc domain. Senator Fall. I Imow you have allowed that, but have you a copy of the treaty with the Navajos? They are treaty Indians. Mr. Meritt. As to part ol the reservation we have certain treaties with the Navajos. rart of their reservation 's treaty reservation and part is Executive-order reservation. Senator Fall. You have a treaty with the Navajo Indians dating way back to 1867. The Navajos were rounded up by the military force of the United States at Pecks River. Then there was a treaty entered into with them by which all of those Indians going upon the INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 29.3 reservation agreed to stay there and agreed not to go off of the reser- vation, and surrendered all rights in the event any of them were found off the reservation. I have that treaty in my office. Of course, I did not know that it was questioned. , Senator Lane. Was there any stipulation there that the whites would keep off the Indian reservation ? Senator Fall. The whites have been put off the Indian reserva- tion without any reservation. Senator Lane. And are they still? Senator Fall, Oh, yes; if all of the Navajos, including the Indians who are off the reservation, were allotted there could be set aside and allotted to them more than 1,100 acres each. Mr. Meritt. There are about 30,000 Navajo Indians, and they have a reservation amounting to between eleven and twelve million acres of land. That reservation, of course, is very largely barren, and it requires very large acreage to even support sheep, and the reservation is now partly, in certain portions, overgrazed, and the Indians on the Navajo Reservation have found conditions such that they prefer to take their chances on the public domain in order to find grazing grounds for their sheep and for their cattle, and naturally they want to take allotments on the public domain near where they graze their sheep. Senator Fall. In view of the fact that the others have been passed, I will* ask that this be passed until the meeting of the committee. Senator Ashurst (Senator Lane in the chair). Mr. Chairman, be- fore this amendment is passed I wish to say a few words. A very large part of the Navajo Indian Reservation, with its various ex- tensions, is within the State of Arizona. On the 18th of September, 1913, in the open Senate, I called attention to a most flagrant abuse that had been perpetrated by the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Rail- road Co., in the following manner: . On January 27, 1866, an act of Congress granted to the old Atlantic & Pacific Railroad Co. every alternate section of public land, 40 miles on either side of the railroad company's fine of definite location, tjirough Arizona and New Mexico. The grant was made in odd-num- bered sections so that the railroad company would have some interest in seeing to it that the country was ''settled up." In other words, Congress did not deem it wise to grant a solid tract of land. The rail- road company accepted the grant, and of course was very glad at that time to receive it. Vast forest reserves were created in northern Ari- zona, commencing in the year 1898. These reserves, of course, only embraced the unreserved public land. Whereupon th^ Santa Fe Railroad Co. and some of its grantees began a systematic devious propaganda to try to induce the Interior Department to permit it, the Santa Fe Raihoad Co., to surrender to the Government about 975,000 acres of land in northern Arizona, and the railroad company made the argument that the Government ought to have a sohd and not a ''checkerboard" reserve. The legislature of the then Territory made protest against such procedure, extensive hearings were held by the then Secretary of the Interior, and vigorous protests were made against the inclusion of the raihoad land within the forest reserves for the land which the raHroad company was attempting to have included within the forest reserves was land which had been denuded of timber or upon which timber never grew. 294 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. This land was assessed at from 10 to 25 cents per acre. The then Secretary of the Interior could not be made to see the injustice of this ''deal" which the railroad company was undertaking to ''put over" and it was consummated in 1902. Under the terms of the transfer the railroad company was permitted to surrender about 975,000 acres of land upon which timber never grew, or from which the timber had been removed, and upon a large part of the land thus surrendered to the Government a jack rabbit could not live unless he carried a haversack. In Ueu of the 975,000 acres surrendered to the Government the railroad company located an equal area of land in the States of Washington, Montana, and Oregon. The land which the. railroad company accepted in lieu of the land relinquished is worth all the way from $15 to S200 per acre. That" deal" undoubt- edly was the most remarkable steal any special interest ever put through in the West. The episode reflects no credit upon those who permitted it to occur. It is impossible to ascertain just how much money the company made out of this transaction. Sometime later 275,000 acres, now called the Grand Canyon Keserve, was included within the forest reserve and an equal area of valuable land taken elsewhere. The land surrendered to the Government, while under the ownership of the railroad company, was assessed at from 10 to 25 cents per acre. The inclusion of these vast areas of comparatively worthless, treeless land into the forest reserve became somewhat of a scandal, and the rail- road company then adopted a new line of tactics. It said, in effect^ to the Indian Bureau: "We, the railroad people, being philanthro- pists, and our railroad being an eleemosynary institution, therefore believe that the Navajo Indian Reservation is not large enough/^ so an apparently harmless provision was inserted in the act of April 21, 1904 — in the Indian appropriation bill — which provided that the Executive, upon recommendation of the Interior Department, might at any time extend an Indian reservation over private land and the private owners could surrender their holdings and take an equal area of land within the same State. Whereupon the railroad com- pany got busy with the Indian Office and induced the Indian Office to extend the Navajo Reservation so as to include about 375,000 acres of railroad lands that were assessed at from 10 to 25 cents per acre, and in lieu of these 375,000 acres the railroad company has selected an equal area of land in other parts of the State, the land which is selected being worth from $2 to S4 per acre, and I under- stand that there is now another propaganda on foot put forward by the railroad company, and that the company has recently been attempting to induce the Indian office to include in the Navajo Reser- vation another tract of railroad land worth probably 15 or 20 cents an acre, so that it, the railroad company, may select other lands in lieu of the comparatively worthless land that it proposes to re- linquish. I presume no citizen objects to the extension of the reservations where they are proper and necessary^ but it becomes my duty to protest against any extension of the Navajo Reservation when in truth and in fact the extensions are made not for the benefit of the Indians, but that the coffers of a vast corporation may be still further filled. INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. 296 Senator Townsend. Senator, I can not quite understand you. How will this be for the benefit of the railroads, this proposition to allot the Indian lands on the public domain; how is the railroad bene- fited by that ? Senator Ashurst. I only wanted to draw attention to the fact that after having enlarged this reservation, certainly beyond all reasonable proportions, it is now proposed to go on the public domain— the little we have left — and allot the public domain to the Indians. Senator Townsend. I understand the point very clearly. Senator Ashurst. I probably should not speak with any heat on this subject; it is not becoming, but. Senators, apply it to yourselves. Suppose in your States a corporation had a great grant of land given to it; and then should come here and try to induce the Indian Office to believe that the reservation ought to be extended when the only motive the railroad company has for such action is to line its own pockets. I have now laid the matter before the Senate and before this committee. Senator Fall. There are on the Navajo Reservation, as shown by the report of the Interior Department, which I have in my office, something hke 1,100 acres to each Navajo. Of the entire acreage, in fact, there have only been about 3,000 acres allotted. It is reported by the geological experts of the United States, who have been classifying coal lands, to contain — I have forgotten the figures and I would not undertake to say — I am afraid to say how many biUions of tons of marketable coal. It contains hundreds of milhons of feet of the best class of timber. The Navajos, with their resources which they own at the present time properly developed — even as we attempt to develop the balance of our State, New Mexico — the Navajo Indians would be worth 10 times as much, I think, individually as the average of the white population of that country. Now, it is true they may, if they have a large number of sheep, not be able to run more than on 1,100 acres of land. It is equally true that when they get off on the public domain they are only entitled to an allotment of 320 acres of^land — similar land. The lands are generally of like character in New Mexico Mr. Meritt. One hundred and sixty acres. Senator Fall. One hundred and sixty acres is all they can get under the enlarged homestead act. So part of New Mexico has been classified as locatable under the enlarged homestead act to 320 acres. At the outside that is all they can get, and if they can not use 1,100 acres of land what does it mean? These Navajos would be attempting to go off the reservation, as a general thing, and leave their famihes or some members of their families back to keep 2,200 acres of the 5,000 acres while they get an additional amount of public domain. i . i* i u Now, we are under treaty— I assert that— by which they would surrender at any rate all rights which they would have on the res- ervation if they undertook to go off the reservation. That is a treaty provision with them. We, of course, want to protect the Indian there and help them as much as we can, but it is not to the Indians' interest to go out among the white men and undertake to compete with them m grazing on the small portion of New Mexico left We have 78,000,000 of acres. The people of New Mexico— 296 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. the settlers on the public domain of New Mexico — have acquired less than 3,000,000 oi acres Senator Robinson. May I interrupt to ask you a question? Senator Fall. Certainly. Senator Robinson. Does the existing law permit the Indian allottees of this Navajo Reservation to go on the pubhc domain and take a home and put up a claim there? Senator Fall. They have been doing it. I claim not. The law does not permit it. The trouble about the Interior Department ap- parently is that they work from year to year on reports which Con- gress authorizes them to make. Several years ago Congress made an appropriation to have Army officers and engineers go upon the * Navajo Reservation for the purpose of recommending to Congress how to take care of all the Navajos, and the report will show that in addition to the moneys then remaining in hand, the Army board stated that if $69,000— if not $70,000; I think the figures were $69,000 — additional money was appropriated for digging wells and building some small reservoirs, that the Navajos would all be able to have all the agricultural land they wanted on the Navajo Reserva- tion. Last year I voted to allow 16,000 acres of land to be ex- changed by the Santa Fe road — that is the road that now owns the land; and the Senator from Arizona did the same thing — because the raiboad claimed that the Navajos had been allowed to go off ihe reservation and had settled on their railroad land and they could not object — they were protected by the Government — and they came and asked that we allow them to exchange the land so that the Indians might have their own off the reservation, hundreds of miles, and the cause of my insistence upon putting this exception in the bill was that the cattlemen and sheepmen and agriculturists in Socorro County, 200 miles from the Navajo Reservation, petitioned me to imdertake to endeavor to stop it because of the report of some school agent or school inspector for the Pueblo Indians to the depart- ment. The department had proceeded to take certain Navajos from western Socorro County and to allot them lands adjoining the pat- ented lands which had been owned by the settlers under grants and under patents from the United States Government for from 20 to 30 years, and the pubhc domain was allotted to 130 or 140 Navajos who had 1,100 acres at the very least on their own reservation. Now, those Navajos were renegados; they were not working Indians; they never wanted any allotment: they simply went on the reservation for hunting purposes, and came in conflict with the State authorities and had a warm conflict with them, one cr two of the parties being killed. Now, the objection was largely this: These j^eople had no stock and they were not endeavoring to make any living on this land, and the objection that was urged by the settlers was that ''when the allotments are made to these Navajo Indians some of these men will give the Indian $100 for his allotment and hold us up fjr $1,000 because he absolutely ruins cur ranch." That was the objection they were urging to it more than the fact of the Indians' allotments. There is no water, or very little, on any of those allotments. Water is what we have been working for out in that country. Of course no man wiU ever refuse anyone water for drinking purposes. Settlers can always get it and the cattlemen INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 297 who settle up in that country can get water for drinking purposes, and the Indians can get it. Senator Townsend. D ) I understand that the land which these ^^^ renegado Navaj os, as you call them have— and I use that term to ''* apply to those who are not on the reservation— is no better in any particular than the land that belongs to those on the reservation ? Senator Fall; Oh, no; it is not any better, and nothing like as good, I would say, from my shght knowledge. I have no very exten- sive knowledge of the Navajo Reservation. I have only been through portions of it and part of the reservation adjoining. Senator Townsend. And you think that by the expenditure of a sufficient sum of money that water can be obtained on the Navajo Reservation to supply the wants of the Indians on the reservation ? Senator Fall. So the Army board reports, and they have recom- mended a scheme, which is contained in a volume which I have, but it seems to have been overlooked entirely and there has been no action by Congress upon it. Senator Townsend. May I ask Mr. Meritt, right there, if you allow Indians who are entitled to allotment on the reservation, and who own any portion of the land, to stiU retain an interest while you are allotting them other lands upon the public domain ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Fall. How do you exclude them from it ? Mr. Meritt. The Indian who takes up an allotment on the public domain is not entitled to an allotment on this reservation. Senator Fall. But you are not allotting— and you admitted last year in announcing your opposition to my objection— that as assistant commissioner you did not want to allow those Indians on the Navajo Reservation. Mr. Meritt. That is true at this time, Senator, because of condi- tions down there. It would be impracticable to allot the Navajo Indians at this time because of the fact that they have not sufficient water developinent. Senator Fall. But you can allot them on dry lands in New Mexico, on the public domain ? Mr. Meritt. Those Indians who are allotted on the public domain voluntarily left their reservation to go on the public domain in order that they might make a better living for themselves. Senator Townsend. Can they make a better living for themselves; do you know anything about that ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. They are better satisfied. Those Indians who have left the reservation are better satisfied to take their allot- ments on the pubhc domain. They voluntarily get out on the public domain and make settlements on the pubhc land and ask that they be allotted. They went under the fourth section of the general allotment act. Senator Townsend. How is it possible, then, for the State of New Mexico to settle up that State at all if after a certain amount of land has been allotted to the Indians as a reservation they still have the right to go over on the public domain and settle there ? What is the use of giving them the allotments ? Senator Fall. Senator Townsend, if you will pardon me, let me show you the situation ; I do not know whether you can see it clearly on this map. Here is San Juan County, N. Mex., one of the finest 298 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. fruit districts in the world and a magnificent mineral district. There are veins of coal there from four to six hundred feet wide, and rail- roads are attempting to build into it. They can not get into it; they have to cross the Indian reserve. The people of San Juan County are surrounded entirely by an Indian reserve, and they are taxed to support their courts and to pay their peace officers, all their county officials, and the State government officials, and three-fourths of the country is taken away from them by the successive encroachments of the Interior Department, When it was a Territory the Indians who lived with the Mescaleros down in southern New Mexico were re- moved from the Mescalero reserve for some reason and taken up to northern New Mexico and an extensive reserve given them, part of* which has now been withdrawn. It was nearly twice as large. We finally succeeded in getting them withdrawn, only two years ago. Now, these people down here are very extensive sheep raisers, just as the Navajos are themselves. The Navajos have an enormous reserve upon which to run their sheep — 1,100 acres to a man. The sheepmen of San Juan and Socorro Counties have leased some old land grants that are scattered on the forest reserve, and they have to drive their sheep across the Indian reserve. They are not allowed to scatter them out and drive them. They have been driven out of the business, and now to allow the Navajos to go off their reserva- tion and take up the little remaining public domain of New Mexico is certainly not fair to the white people. They want to be fair to the Indian. They are not asking that we turn our backs to him or to divide up with them proportionately their part of the land. They can only take, at the outside, 320 acres of land. The Indian has 1,100 acres, and they now ask to go on the outside and take up additional land. Now, if there has been any single, solitary instance in which your records will show, or the records of the local office wiU show, that any Indian allotted on the outside loses his rigths on the reservation, I would like to know it. I have investigated it, and I can not find any such instance. It may be that I overlooked it, but I am inclined to think that on investigation you mil not be able to find it. McKinley County is here [indicating]. Half of the county is taken up. The railroad runs through McKinley County. A number of the Navajos are good workers and good Indians; the majority of the Navajos are good people and as good workers as we have anywhere. They went down to work on the railroad when it was first built through their reserve. Old Fort Defiance was here [indicating]. That was the original rallying point cf the Indians. Senator Townsend. Do the Navajo Indians claim that they were overreached or defrauded in any way in the assigning to them of this original reservation ? Senator Fall. I think not. I think they were more than glad. Mr. Meritt. There is no claim ci that kind made. Senator Townsend. Do they claim thati they have less land than they are entitled to ? Mr. Meritt. They claim that they have not sufficient land on which to graze their sheep and their cattle at this time. Senator C^lapp. Because of the character of the land. Mr. Meritt. Because of the character of the land. INDIAN APPBOPRIATION BILL. 299 Senator Townsend. I just wanted to get at some of the funda- mental facts here that are not clear to me. If it is conceded that this reservation was properly set aside to the Navajo Indians, and that they are not defrauded in the amount of land they were to receive or deceived in its location, but afterwards as they increased in the business of stock raising they felt they would Hke to go upon the public domain and take some more land, and different land from that, I stiU submit the question to you. Where is this going to stop, and when can New Mexico ever determine what land belongs to the State and what land is eventually going to be given to the Indian ? Are you going to continue this pohcy, or are you going to continue the polic;y^ of allotting them as fast as they want land on the public domain, and they are to exercise their option as to whether they wiU stay on the reservation or go off onto the pubhc domain ^ Mr. Meritt. I believe the Indians who are now on the Navajo Keservation have sufficient lands to meet their needs but the Navajo Indians off the reservation and on the public domain, who have been living there for years, should not be forced back on the Navajo Reservation, which they once left of their own accord. Senator Townsend. Did they leave the reservation after it was a reservation ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. All these Indians we are now speaking of have once been on the reservation, but have now gone off onto the public domain ? Mr. Meritt. Practically all of them. Senator Fall. Last year, Mr. Commissioner, the statement was made from your office — of course, I presume you did not know it^ to the effect that these Indians who are being allotted in New Mexico had never been on the reservation. Mr. Meritt. There are some Indians on the public domain who have never lived on the reservation. A large part of them left the reservation to live on the public domain ? Senator Robinson. I would like to ask you, Senator Fall, what you think ought to be done with those Indians who live off the reserva- tion? Senator Fall. I do not know of any Indians who are off the res- vation who have not had their claims absolutely acknowledged. Now, whether patent has issued or not for claims, I do not know. If it has not^ it is Qot because of the failure at the last session to appropriate money for the purpose of issuing them patents, because the expense has been incurred already. If they have been allotted on the public domain, then this restriction that we put in there does not apply to them. Senator Robinson. You merely intend to stop the Navajo Indians in the future from going on the pubhc doraain. Does this proviso in last year's bill apply to cases where Indians have already located claims, for instance, as homesteaders on the public domain, or does it apply to those who may hereafter locate such claims ? Senator Fall. Clearly hereafter; that was the purpose of it. It was because these are Indians that I spoke of — I should not have used the term "renegado" if that conveys to you the impression that they were on the warpath, or had been for a great many years, but they were Indians who were not workers; they had no settled place 300 INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. of abode. They were hiintevs. They are, as a matter of fact, some of the Indians who had built near what is now the Gila Forest Reserve, and the Government has a township reserve down there yet at the old Indian reservation. They had lived around that point where they had been going out hunting, contrary to the laws of the State, in the closed season, and when they were interfered with they had a fight. Those people are not attempting to make any living, as far as I have heard. They are simply roaming Indians, and there may be some among them who have never been on the reservation, but they have all been located. But to stop those, to keep any more from going out on the public domain, this provision, or exception, was embodied in the last bill. Senator Robinson. Is there any way of ascertaining how many Indians that would apply to? Mr. Meritt. We estimate that there are about 1,000 Indians off the Navajo Reservation. Senator Fall. That is, the States of California, Utah, Arizona and New Mexico — the four States altogether. There is a portion of the reserve in each State. Senator Robinson. How many of them have already established their claims? Mr. Meritt. Practically none of them have received patents, and that is the objectionable feature of this legislation. Senator Fall. The legislation does not provide for Senator Clapp. If the committee will listen to me for a moment, I think I can straighten this out very easily. Senator Fall. I hope so. Senator Clapp. Both the Senator and the department are right as to the law. The treaty provided that these people should not go off, but either party to a treaty can always extend the rights of either party, as the Government has done in this case, by allowing them to take these allotments. Now the trouble is that the Indian Office has construed this limitation as a prohibition against issuing patents to those who are off. Senator Fall. To whom allotments have already been made. I have no desire to do that. Senator Clapp. If we can correct that and keep the limitation in effect, and let the department go on and complete patenting to those who have made removals, I think we would clear the whole situation. Senator Fall. I have no objection to it. Senator Clapp. But the department has doubtless regarded that as a prohibition against doing anything more toward completing this allotment. Senator Robinson. This language provides that where they have already located claims Senator Fall. Where they have heretofore been allotted. Senator Robinson. Have been heretofore allotted claims on the public domain, patent may issue. Mr. Meritt. May I state that these Indians have not yet been allotted. That is the principal point in this matter. They have not been allotted. They have been living on this land. Senator Fall. You will find that the Indians who have gone off and worked on the railroad — off in sections somewhere else, have selected or located for themselves on some piece of land that they INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 301 concluded they would like to have. They have returned to the reservation or lived with some other Indians, and now if you say to them that they have a right to go and take the lands that they have selected, half the Navajos would go off the reserve at once and take allotments and the other half holding their property in community would avail themselves of the community acreage of the reserve. You do not cut that down. You leave it as it is. To use an extreme illustration, suppose two-thirds of the Navajos went off the reserva- tion, who would still retain the reserve as it is located, those on the reserve or the other two-thirds on the public domain ? ^ Mr. Meritt. What we are most interested in now is to protect the rights of those 'Indians who have heretofore left the reservation and are now living on the public domain in Arizona and New Mexico. Senator Fall. They will continue to live right there will they not^ whether they get a patent or not 1 Nobody is trying to eject them. Mr. Meritt. Whether they get patents or not, anybody who comes along and claims a homestead, they will be moved along. Senator Fall. Have you had that condition in the last few years ?' Mr. Meritt. No, sir; it is not very frequent. Senator Fall, Mr. Chairman, my object in holding this up was to aUow the office to work out some other policy, providing how the rights of the Indians now on the public domain may be guarded. But I can not consent to allow the remaining small portion of my State to be taken. We have already been deprived of over half of the entire acreage of New Mexico; 38,000,000 acres of the land gone; 11,000,000 in forest reserve, and I have forgotten how many millions in Indian reserve. We can not support our State government if we give it up to nontaxpaying Indians. Senator Robinson. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that this item go over for the present. Mr. Meritt. I believe that probably the department and Senator Fall could agree on an amendment that would protect the rights of these Indians who are now on the public domain, and would exclude Indians hereafter leaving the reservation and going on the public domain. Senator Fall. I think very likely we can. Mr. Meritt. We realize that the States of Arizona and New Mexico are deprived of a great deal of land that is now taxed. I wp.nt to say, too, in answer to the statement made by Senator Ashurst that there has been a great deal of abuse with respect to this exchanging of land. The Indian OflB.ce within the last few months has had one of these philanthropic propositions made to it, and we did not bite, and we do not intend to. In the past the railroad companies have ex- changed practically worthless land for very valuable agricultural land. The Chairman. I am glad to have you say that. Senator Robinson. We are investigating some of these matters on the joint commission, and will probably have occasion to take that matter up. The Chairman. Item No. 1 on page 2 of the bill is passed tempo- rarily. . INDIAN SCHOOL AT ALBUQUERQUE, N. MEX. Senator Fall. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have the committee consider the item for support and education of the Indian pupils at the Albuquerque School. ' 302 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. The Chairman. The item referred to is on page 32 of the compari- son, at the bottom of the page, page 496 of the hearings, as follows: Sec. 12. For support and education of four hundred Indian pupils at the Indian school at Albuquerque, New Mexico, including pay of superintendent, 168,600; for general repairs and improvements, $5,000; in all, $73,600. Senator Fall. In the last bill there was an appropriation of S88,600 and at this time the estimate of the department is $106,600. This item simply illustrates the mistaken policy pursued by us in making appropriations. Last year it was insisted upon by myself, as esti- matecf by the department, that this appropriation should be made of sufficient amount to construct the buildings necessary for handling the 400 pupils. The committee compromised by providing for the* support and maintenance of an additional 100 pupils at the Albu- querque school. Senator Robinson. What is the estimate for this ? Senator Fall. $106,000. The House reduced it to seventy-three thousand. Now, the trouble about it is that we asked that we be allowed a sufficient amount to handle the additional munber of pupils, 100, and the appropriation made for it at the same time the appro- priation was made for the buildings for their accommodation. In conference the buildings were stricken out, and that is the trouble. In our endeavor to be economical we will incur increased appropria- tion and that will necessitate coming before Congress again and having the appropriation still further increased to what it should have been in the ffist instance. As I understand it, the department has now estimated for the necessary items. The Chairman. What is your amendment? Senator Fall. I ask that the estimate of the department be allowed, namely, $106,600. The Chairman. Do you care to make a statement in regard to this item, Mr. Meritt ? Mr. Meritt. We would like to have our original estimate. We estimated for general repairs and improvements $8,000, and the House cut us to $5,000. We need the full $8,000. The Chairman. Where is that item? Mr. Meritt. Line 2, page 33. We also estimated for assembly hall, and gymnasium, $30,000. Those items are left out entirely. This building is very much needed at this school and we would like to have it included in this bill. Senator Page. Do you really need that, Senator Fall, at that school? Senator Fall. Senator, I am not in charge of it. I will say to you that if I were not thoroughly impressed with the need for it I would not ask for it. The superintendent of the school has made a memorandum of his needs on which the request was made before. The assembly hall is entirely too small. They can not use it. They are now taking care of 400 pupils and they have not enough building there to take care of 200. Congress allowed an appropriation for taking care of 400 pupils but not for the necessary buildings and the necessary amount for repairs, and it seems to me it is very shortsighted policy. As a matter of fact the Indians there want the facilities of the school for double the number now and Congress has not made any appro- priation for it. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 303 The Chairman. The question is on the motion of the Senator from New Mexico to make the total of this item $106,600. (The motion was agreed to.) INDIAN SCHOOL AT SANTA FE, N. MEX. The Chairman. The next item is No. 91; page 33 of the bill; page 499 of the hearings, as follows: For support and education of three hundred and iifty Indian pupils at the Indian school at Santa Fe, Ne^w Mexico, and for pay of superintendent, $59,550; for general repairs and improvements, $6,000; for water supply, $1,600; for new dairy barn, $4,000; in all, $67,150. \ Mr. Meritt. We would Uke to have our estimate on that item, Mr. Chairman. The House cut the support item from $60,250 to S59,550 and cut the item for general repairs and improvements from $7,000 to $6,000. The total request of the department is for $72,850. The Chairman. Will you read the item as you wish it amended? Mr. Meritt. I suggest that it read: For support and education of three hundred and fifty Indian pupils at the Indian school at Santa Fe, New Mexico, and for pay of superintendent, $60,250; for general repairs and improvements, $7,000; for water supply, $1,600; for new dairy barn, $4,000; in all, $72,850. Senator Fall. $77,500, as you will notice, was appropriated last year. All I know about this item is from the letter which the super- mtendent of the school wrote me. The items have been covered by the estimate made by the department. Senator Page. I want to do all I can so far as my personal vote is concerned for the education of the Indian, but I do not want to be extravagant. I. think a superintendent of a school will ask for almost anything sometimes if he thinks he can get it. Senator Fall. There is an item here for a new dairy barn. I think that is the principal increase. Mr. Meritt. We cut the estimate of the superintendent at least $25,000 at this point. Senator Page. I move we allow the estimate. (The motion was agreed to.) telephone and telegraph service. The Chairman. We will next consider item 11, page 9 of the com- parison, page 22 1 of the hearings, as follows : For telegraph and telephone toll messages on business pertaining to the Indian Service sent and received by the Bureau of Indian Affairs at Washington, $10,000. Mr. Meritt. This is the appropriation out of which we pay for telegrams and telephone messages sent to and received by the Indian Office. We need the full amount requested. The House has allowed our estimate. . -n i. The Chairman. In the absence of objection, the item will be agreed to. SUITS involving land allotted to INDIANS. The Chairman. We will next consider item No. 12, page 9 of the comparison, as follows: For witness fees and other legal expenses incurred in suits instituted in behalf oi" or against Indians involving the question of title to lands allotted to them, or the nght 304 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. of possession of personal property held by them, and in hearings set by United StateR local land oflS.cers to determine the rights of Indians to public lands, $2,000: Provided^ That no part of this appropriation shall be used in the payment of attorney fees. Senator Page. That was allowed by the House. I move it be adopted. Mr. Meritt. That is the amount estimated by the department^ allowed by the House, and is the amount appropriated last year. The Chairman. It will be agreed to in the absence of objection. EXPENSES OF BOARD OF INDIAN COMMISSIONERS. The Chairman. The next item is on page 10, item No. 13, as follows : For expenses of the Board of Indian Commissioners, |4,000, including not to exceed $300 for office rent. Senator Robinson. I think we had better pass that over for this evening. There are a number of people who want to be heard on that. Senator Townsend. I am very anxious to increase that amount. Senator Gronna. Is not that an item that we increased last year and it went out on a point of order ? Senator Robinson. Yes. The Chairman. The item will go over on the request of the Senator from Arkansas. PAY OF INDIAN POLICE. The Chairman The next item is No. 14, page 10 of the bill, as follows : For payment of Indian police, including chiefs of police, at not to exceed $50 ^er month each and privates at not to exceed $30 per month each, to be employed in main- taining order, and for the purchase of equipments and supplies and for rations for policemen at nonration agencies, $150,000. Senator Page. Mr. Chairman, I ask that that go over. It is a very large item, and I am now going to make my usual motion that the committee adjourn. PAY OF judges of INDIAN COURTS. The Chairman. The next item is on page 10, item No. 15, page 253 of the hearings, as follows: For compensation of judges of Indian courts where tribal relations now exist, $8,000. Senator Lane. What was it last year ? Senator Page. The same amount. The House has allowed it. I move we allow it. (The motion was agreed to.) The Chairman, The next item is No. 16, page 10, general expenses of Indian Service. Senator Page. I would hke to have that go over. , (The item was temporarily passed over.) Senator Page. Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee do now adjourn until Monday next at 2 o'clock p. m. (The motion was agreed to and at 4 o'clock p. m. the committee adjourned until Monday, March 30, 1914, at 2 o'clock p. m.) INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. 305 MONDAY, MARCH 30, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock p.m. Present: Senators Ashiirst (chairman), Lane, Clapp, La Follette, Page, Gronna, and Townsend. The Chairman. The committee will now resume the consideration of the Indian appropriation bill. . , DETERMINING HEIRS OF DECEASED INDIANS. The Chairman. The next item is on page 17 of the printed bill^ page 256 of the hearings, as follows: For the purpose of determining the heirs of deceased Indian allottees and other persons having any right, title, or interest in any trust or restricted allotment, or in any other estate or property held in trust by the United States, under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior, $100,000: Provided, That hereafter any officer or employee appointed or designated by the Secretary of the Interior as special ex- aminer in heirship cases shall have authority to administer oaths in investigations committed to him: Provided further, That the provisions of this act shall not apply to the Osage Indians, nor to the Five Civilized Tribes of Indians in Oklahoma. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, we ar6 asking for $100,000 for the purpose of determining the heirs of deceased Indians as required by the act of June 23, 1910. Congress appropriated $50,000 for this work last year, and we have been doing some splendid work with that appropriation. The Chairman. How much did the House allow you this year? Mr. Meritt. The House allowed us our estimate. There are between 40,000 and 50,000 heirship cases pending undetermined. This represents Indian land worth approximately $60,000,000. The Indians can not dispose of this land until the heirs are determined, and this is one of the large pieces of work that this administration has fallen heir to. We would like to have an amendment of this item after the word '^Oklahoma," in line 9, page 11, reading as fol- lows: Provided, further, That the Commissioner of Indian Affairs is hereby authorize to use not to exceed $20,000 for the employment of additional clerks in the Indian Office in connection with the work of determining the heirs of deceased Indians, out of the $100,000 appropriated herein. Senator Page. Let me ask you a question. You say there are how many million dollars in the property there ? Mr. Meritt. About $60,000,000 worth of property tied up. Senator Page. If there is so much property as that belongmg to the Indians, why should they not pay the necessary expenses mstead of appropriating $100,000 out of the Treasury for the purpose? Mr. Meritt. They are required to pay $15 in each case, but that appropriation goes back into the Treasury. Senator Page. And this is really somethmg that will eventually be returned to the Treasury ? ■ r Mr. Meritt. This work is really more than self-supportmg, because^ from each case we get $15, which goes into the Treasury to the credit. of the United States. i?m.-,nnAnni Senator Page. That is to say, this whole appropriation ol $100,000 will take nothing from the Federal Treasury, and all ol it will be reimbursed ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. 39746— PT 1—14 20 306 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Clapp. They are charged so much a piece for those cases? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; they are charged $15 under the existing law. The Chairman. And that is covered back into the Federal Treasury? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. We would like to have that law changed so that we would only be required to charge $10, because even at $10 the work will be more than self-supporting, and we do not want to make a profit on the Indians. The Chairman. Will you please read your amendment again? Mr. Meritt. The first amendment that we would like to have, and which I have read to the committee, is as follows: The Commissioner of Indian Affairs is hereby authorized to use not to exceed < 120,000 for the employment of additional clerks in the Indian Office in connection with the work of determining heirs of deceased Indians, out of the $100,000 appro- priated herein. Another proviso reads this way: Provided further, That hereafter upon determination of heirs of deceased Indians by the Secretary of the Interior there shall be paid by such heirs, or from the estate of such deceased Indian, or deducted from the proceeds of the sale of land of the de- ceased allottee, or from any trust funds belonging to the estate of the decedent, the sum of $10 instead of $15 as now required by law. Senator Clapp. You find that that will more than reimburse the Government? Mr, Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. How are those matters settled now? How is this disposed of now ? Mr. Meritt. This is the method of determining the heirs of these estates: We get the superintendent or a special examiner to make the investigation on the reservation. He interviews the witnesses and the heirs and makes up a record of the case. Senator Lane. This is merely for employing a larger number of clerks. Are you not able to keep up the work as it is now? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; we have at least 40,000 cases now pending, ind last year was the first appropriation that Congress gave us for this work. We are required to do this work by the act of June 25, 1910, but Congress failed to make the appropriation, and it is in order to enable the department to clean up these cases that are now pending on the various reservations. It will be very helpful to the Indians, because, as it is now, $60,000,000 worth of property is abso- lutely tied up. The heirs can not sell it, and if the heirs were deter- mined we could sell this inherited land, and having allotments of their own, they could use the proceeds to build homes, or buy farm- ing equipment, or for such other needs as they may have. Senator Page. Is this rn any way safeguarded, this fund— that is, it must be paid under such rules and regulations as the Interior Department prescribes? Mr. Meritt. The land would be sold under such rules and regula- tions as the department may prescribe. Senator Lane. Mr. Sloan wanted to discuss this. He is an Indian and a lawyer and has made a study of this. He wanted to have a little talk on this subject. He will be in here in a few minutes. The Chairman. We will pass that. Senator Clapp. What he goes to is the question of review of these decisions. It is not to be said that there is not a good deal of force INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 307 in that. But this simply amounts to this situation: Under the existing law, as fast as they can, they can go on and settle these estates and charge $15 for each estate. Now, they can not use this money for additional cleric unless additional clerks are expressly authorized. Senator Lane. I think we had it up last year. Mr. Meritt. Congress made a $50,000 appropriation, but they failed in the Indian appropriation bill to provide for clerks m the Indian Office. Therefore we were not able to use satisfactorily the $50,000, and Congress subsequently passed a special bill allowing us $10,000 for this work. Of course, if you are going to double the appropriation we would hke to have $20,000 for the hire of clerks-. The Chairman. We will let it be passed until Mr. Sloan comes. Senator Clapp. I think his objection will go to the finaHty of these decisions, which is a distinct subject entirely. Mr. Kellogg. I think it is something on the order of what passed the committee last year. The Chairman. What shall we do ? Senator Clapp. It does not go to this particular fund. Mr. Kellogg. No, sir. The Chairman. Let us pass it and recur to it, on the suggestion of the Senator. Senator Lane. I will withhold voting on it until I know more about it, and see if he has any vaHd objection. If he has, he will urge it. RELIEF OF MRS. ROBERT LEO BOWMAN, The Chairman. The next item is No. 19, not in the House bill, page 272 of the hearing, as follows : That the Secretary of the Treasury is hereby authorized to pay, out of any moneys in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated, the sum of $5,000 to Mrs. Robert Leo Bowman, widow of Robert Leo Bowman, late deputy special officer for the suppres- sion of liquor traffic among the Indians, who was killed while in the performance of his duty. Mr. Meritt. The justification for this item is found on page 272 of the House hearings. Mr. Bowman was a liquor-suppression officer and was killed wMle in the performance of his duties in the State of Oklahoma. He left a widow with children, and we think it only fair that this appropriation should be made. Senator Lane. Did somebody kill him intentionally; was he mur- dered ? Jk/Cr IVTeritt jl es sir. Senator Lane. Did you have a trial and hang the other fellow? Mr. MERirr. The matter is now in the courts. Senator Lane. How much do you give his heirs ? Mr. Meritt. We are asking that his widow receive S5,000. Senator Clapp. What was the other case —Stanley ? The Chairman. Yes; it is in the bill here. Senator Lane. Was it allowed by the House? [-■[ Mr. Meritt. The House omitted this item from the bill. ' ; Senator Lane. On what ground? , „ i- . Mr. Meritt. On the ground that they wanted all claims ot every nature left out of the bill as passed by the House. 308 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILI.. Senator Lane. What did they want done with them— send them to the Committee on Claims ? Mr. Meritt. They did introduce, I think, a special bill to allow these claims. . The Chairman. Is the House going to approve any special biU i Mr. Meritt. I believe thev have introduced a special bill but it will be difficult to get a special bill through the House. We would hke to have these items in the Indian bill, if agreeable to the Senate committee. The Chairman. As far as I am concerned, undoubtedly the claims are just, valid, and legal claims against the United States. I hope we won't open the door to any claims at all against the United States. Any claims against the Indian, or Indian lands, or any moneys that might be Senator Lane. We are doing that every day. The Chairman. I hope we won't open the door to claims against the United States. Senator Clapp. This may be done and perhaps justified. I quite agree mth you. I do not want to see this bill loaded down with claims. It has taken a long while to get it where it is, but limiting it to those claims that grow out of loss of Hfe and services might be perhaps justified. However, I do not know. The Chairman. I see the distinction. They grow out of Indian service. Senator Clapp. Indian service, and with the understanding that the claims be absolutely limited to that class I would support the Bowman and Stanley claims. The Chairman. Item No. 19. Shall we pass that claim? The man lost his life in suppressing liquor among the Indians. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Bowman was killed on September 19, 1912, in Oklahoma. Senator Page. How was Bowman killed, and why did they not allow it in the House ? Mr. Meritt. He was killed while in the performance of his duties as an officer in suppressing the liquor traffic. The House omitted this item from the bill on the ground that it was claimed that the House Committee on Indian Affairs wanted to omit from the Indian bill all claims of whatever nature. The House committee has caused to be LQtroduced a special bill carrying some of these claims, if not all of them, includmg the claims of Mrs. Bowman and Mrs. Stanley. We feel that there is a probability that the biQ may not get through the House, and these are very deserving claims, these men having lost their fives in the performance of their duties, and it is proper and just that the Government provide some appropriation for their widows and children. Senator Lane. Did you say his wife is down at this time with ty- phoid fever — or was it last year ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; she was iU. Senator Clapp. Senator Page, it is desirable to keep the bill free of claims, but here is a distinct class — three, probably, growing out of loss of life in the service itself, and we might limit in the bill claims to that class. I quite agree with the rest. I do liot want to see too many matters of tnat kind on this bill, but fimited distiuctly to a case where a man has lost his fife in the service. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 309 Senator Page. We have, as you know, Senator Clapp, in the Com- mittee on Claims a great many of these claims and they run wild in the amoimt that is allowed, and seem to be largely a matter of sym- pathy. Senator Clapp. There never have been but two claims before the Committee on Claims that I remember; one is the Bowman case, and the other is the Stanley case. There may be a third case I do not recall, but there could not have been over three, under any circum- stances. , Senator Page. I am speakmg of general claims that come before the Committee on Claims. Senator Clapp. But this is a distinctive class. These grow out of trying to suppress the liquor traffic. Senator Lane. Not all of them. Here is one for pay while the claimant was on duty, and pay was not allowed to liim for some reason, and another seems to be pay to some man for killing another, and there is another one reimbursing expenses. Senator Clapp. But these are not clauns for loss of life in the service. Senator Lane. But they are in here. Senator Clapp. But we are discussing a distinctive class of claims. There are two of that kind that I recall. Senator Page. "Why should we allow in one case $5,000 and in the other $6,000? Mr. Meritt. That is explained in this way: Supt. Stanley was killed while serving as superintendent of the Soboba Reservation in California, and an Indian was shot and seriously injured. Supt. Stanley did not die for a few days after he was shot, I believe, and there were certain expenses incurred in trying to save his life, and also administering to the needs of the Indian who was shot and seriously injured, and it is our purpose to pay Mrs. Stanley the same as we pay Mrs. Bowman, and use the additional $1,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, in paying the hospital expenses and medical services for the benefit of Supt. Stanley and the Indian who was shot. Senator Page. Do you know, Mr. Meritt, how the amounts that you have specified here compare with the amounts that are paid in other claims when the Committee on Claims have them up for con- sideration ? Senator Lane. They allow them a year's salary, mostly, I think. That is the rule. Mr. Meritt. We feel that would not be adeouate for the widows of these men, and that $5,000 should be allowed for their benefit. Senator Clapp. In most cases where you can recover for loss of life the limitation is $5,000. In some States it is higher than that, I think. It seems to me that while it is not our province to criticize other committees, that where a person is kiUed in the service, and especially in a service that partakes a little of the risk that this does, it is unfair to limit them to a year's salary provided they have a claim upon the Government at all. Senator Page. I guess you are right about that, but here are the Committee on Claims, Committee on Indian Affairs, and the Com- mittee on Naval Affairs, and each committee is inclined to take the matter in its own hands and allow what it thinks is right. In one 310 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. committee they allow a salary perhaps; in another $3,000, another $5,000, and another $10,000. It seems to me there ought to be some uniformity of action in regard to the amounts that we allow. Senator Clapp. I quite agree with you as to those committees. There was one that passed the Naval Committee the other day which ought not to have been there. We did send one back to the Claims Committee. One passed on a report the other morning from the Committee on Finance. It should never have gone to the Commit- tee on Finance, but to the Claims Committee. There is no department so well qualified to pass upon the merits of the claims as these men — the families of these men who have been killed in the service — as this particular department itself, and for that reason I have felt recon- ciled. I am not going to press it, but for one I would support the putting of the Bowman and Stanley matters in this bill, limiting the bill absolutely to cases where they had been killed in the service. However, that is for the committee to determine. Senator Page. What was the salary of Mr. Bowman and what of Mr. Stanley ? Mr. Meritt. Mr. Bowman received a salary of $1,200, I believe, and Mr. Stanley's salary was about $1,600. Senator Page. So you have given them about four years' salary. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; Mrs. Bowman has three small children and Mrs. Stanley has two small children. They are both delicate women and are without means of their own. Senator Page. What you say is that we ought to make these allow- ances to these two widows anyway. We insert the allowance that should be made by some other committee; for instance, the Com- mittee on Claims has made thousands and I do not know but hun- dreds of thousands of allowances in this regular grist of claims for personal injury. Now, we take this out of the Committee on Claims, where it perhaps ought to go, and double the amount. I am not saying that I am for or against it. Senator Clapp. The general custom adopted by the States is to limit the amount of recovery for death to $5,000. I think that is the usual limit, at least it is the limit in some States I know, and that seems to be the judgment of the legislature in dealmg with those sub- jects, and I would not think that $5,000 in each of these cases was any too much. Senator Page. I am not going to be the one to stand here and fight against it. Senator Lane. What about this other fellow; are you including all these claims ? Senator Page. No; just the two — the $5,000 and the $6,000 claims. Do you make the motion that we allow them ? Senator Clapp. I make the motion that they be allowed. The Chairman. The Senator from Minnesota moves that items Nos. 19 and 20 be agreed to. (The motion was agreed to and the items were approved.) relief of CHARLES E. m'cHESNEY. Mr. Meritt. We will not insist on the next item. No. 21, for the relief of Charles E. McChesney, $315.81. While that is a just claim against the Government, we are willing for him to fight his claim in INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 311 the Court of Claims. He is now in the Government service, and can take care of his claim before the Claims Committees of the House and Senate. > The Chairman. The item will be not agreed to. RELIEF OF WIDOW OF GEORGE A. MILLER. The Chairman. The next item is No. 22, as follows: To reimburse the widow of George A. Miller, for expenses incurred by him in defense of a suit arising out of his operations as a special oflQcer engaged in the sup- pression of the liquor traffic among Indians, $200, or so much thereof as maybe necessary Mr. Meritt. This is a just claim and I believe should be paid. Mr. Miller was a liquor-suppression officer, and in the performance of his duty it became necessary for him to shoot a man to protect his own life. He was sued and incurred this expense in this suit. The Chairman. Was a judgment rendered against him ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; these are expenses, and we would not ask for this claim but for the fact that Mr. Miller has subsequently died and left his widow without means. The Chairman. Did Mr. Miller in his lifetime prevail in the suit; was he successful in the litigation. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. A judgment was rendered in his favor ? Mr. Meritt. He was prosecuted, and he won out in the suit, but incurred this expense of S200. (The item' was agreed to.) RELIEF OF OMER D. LEWIS. The Chairman. The next item is No. 23, as follows: The Secretary of the Treasury is hereby authorized to pay to Omer D. Lewis, lease clerk at the Flathead Indian Agency, Mont., the sum of $2,573.25 for the pur- pose of reimbursing him for expenses incurred for hospital and doctor's fees paid and serious personal injuries received while aiding Federal oflBcers engaged in sup- pressing the sale of liquor to Indians, the same to be immediately available. Mr. Meritt. This is a worthy claim against the Government, but Mr. Omer D. Lewis is now in the service, and this is not so urgent a claim as the Bowman, Stanley, or the J^([iller claims, and I believe that it should be taken care of by the Claims Committee. Senator Page. I move that it be disagreed to. (The motion was agreed to.) BRIDGE ACROSS THE MOENCOPI WASH, NAVAJO RESERVATION. The Chairman. The next item is No. 30, page 16 of the bill, page 306 of the hearings, as follows : For the construction of a bridge across the Moencopi Wash on the Western Navajo Indian Reservation, Arizona, $6,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, to be immediately available and to remain available until expended, reimbursable to the United States by the Indians having tribal rights on said reservation and to remain a charge and lien upon the lands and funds belonging to said Indians until paid . Mr. Meritt. This is an item of $6,000 for the construction of a bridge across the Moencopi Wash on the Western Navajo Indian Reservation. 312 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. The Chairman. Is that wholly on the reservation ? Mr. Merxtt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Is it used by anybody else except the Indians ? Mr. Meritt. It is used very largely by Indians and the bridge is for their benefit. Senator Page. Mr. Chairman, are you cognizant of this case? The Chairman. Yes; I know where Moencopi Wash is. I have been there under circumstances not very pleasant, when they had torrential rains there. Mr. Meritt. The justification for the provision is found on page 306 of the hearings, and as it is a short justification I will read it to the committee : The Indian school at Tuba, Ariz., which is the headquarters of the Western Navajo Beservation, is 90 miles from Flagstaff, Ariz., the nearest railroad, telegraph, and telephone station. It has only tri-weekly mail service, the mail being carried on horseback by Indians. A steel bridge was recently constructed across the Little Colorado River about 20 miles from the agency, but as the Moencopi Wash, 5 miles from the agency, rises so high at times as to be dangerous or impossible to ford, it becomes necessary to wait several days for this dangerous stream to subside, as horses have been drowned and lives lost several times in attempting to ford it. The Indian appropriation act for the fiscal year 1914 contained an item providing for an investigation with respect to the necessity of constructing a bridge across the Moencopi Wash; also for surveys, plans, and an estimated limit cost for the construc- tion thereof, together with a report to Congress thereon. The investigation has been made and the report rendered, it being recommended that a bridge be constructed at a total cost of $6,000. This bridge will be on the main traveled road between Arizona and Utah, which is used for freighting by Indians of the entire Western Navajo Reservation. The necessity for this bridge has been very carefully investigated, and a report has been submitted. Senator Page. You say it is reimbursable ? When does this come back to us, and in what way ? Mr. Meritt. It is not a reimbursable item. Senator Page. You say: For the construction of a bridge across the Moencopi Wash, on the Western Navajo Indian Reservation, Arizona, $6,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, to be imDpLediately available to remain available until expended, reimbursable to the United States by the Indians having tribal rights on said reservation, and to remain a charge and lien upon the lands and funds belonging to said Indians until paid. Mr. Meritt. We would be glad to have the reimbursable feature ehminated because that was not included in our estimates. Senator Lane. This is on the main traveled road ? Senator Page. Tell us how that happens to be in there ? Mr. Meritt. The House committee incorporated that part of the item in the bill. Senator Page. "Reimbursable " ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. This says ''On the main traveled road between Arizona and Utah." Is it traveled by anyone but Indians? Mr. Meritt. It is traveled very largely by Indians, and we do our freighting through the reservation across this stream, and they would use this bridge. Senator Lane. Is it used by the whites in traveling back and forth through the country ? Mr. Meritt. The whites use it but very little. It will be largely for the Indians. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. ' 313 Senator Page. In what direction is it from Flagstaff? Mr. Meritt. It is northeast. Senator Page. You go up on that stage route from Flagstaff up to John Hance's cabin, up that way. The Chairman. It is a hundred miles from that, easterly. Senator Page. But you start from Flagstaff. The Chairman. But you asked him whether this bridge, 100 miles off, would be utilized. If it is at th^t point, Moencopi, Wash., it will be a hundred miles from John Hance's cabin, easterly. Senator Page. What traffic is there that calls the white man out there? Mr. Meritt. There is very little traffic by white men on this road. Senator Page. This being for the benefit of the Navajo Indians, and the House having put in the word ^^reimbursable," are you sure the House was not right in doing that? Mr. Meritt. If that reimbursable feature is added to the bill it will be many years before the Government is reimbursed, because it is not the intention of the department to lease that reservation or throw any part of the reservation open to public settlement, and for that reason the reimbursable feature would be meaningless. Senator Page. Impracticable. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. We would be glad to have the item as we estimated. Senator Page. The House estimated all right; they gave it to you, only they put in the word '^reimbursable." Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. We would like to have the language in lines 10, 11, 12, and 13, on page 16 of the bill omitted. The Chairman. The question is on striking out the part indicated so that the same will not be reimbursable. (The motion was agreed to.) The Chairman. The question is on the adoption of the item as amended. (The item as amended was agreed to.) '« : DETERMINING HEIRS OF INDIAN ALLOTTEES. The Chairman. Mr. Sloan is now present and we will recur to the item on page 10, item No. 17, discussed on page 256 of the hearing, the item being for the purpose of determining the heirs of deceased Indian allottees and otner persons. The committee will now hear from Mr. Sloan. Senator Clapp. Before Mr. Sloan begins I will explam to Senator Townsend, who has just come into the room, that this is a fund that is to be used in settling or determining heirships. The office could not employ clerks in the office to do this work without special authoriza- tion. Last year we asked a subsequent bill giving the authority. Now the commissioner asks to have that authority put m. It also reduces the cost of settlement which is now $15, to $10. He says that will sufficiently reimburse the Government for the use of this money. Senator Townsend. We put in an item last year increasing this. Senator Clapp. Of course, for the outside help, but in order to employ help in the office, under the ruling he has to have special authorization. 314 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. Senator Townsend. You asked for that last year. Did you get it from this committee ? i -u i, Mr. Meritt. We got $50,000 for heirship work in the field, but there was no provision in the Indian bill for carrying on the work m the office. We subsequently got a special act allowing us to use $10,000. Senator Townsend. My recollection is we put that in in this com- mittee before. No matter; T am in favor of it. STATEMENT OF THOMAS L. SLOAN. Mr. Sloan. Mr. Chairman, I had not intended personally to take the matter up, but since the suggestion has been made I might say* that there were four delegates from the Omaha Tribe of Indians recently before the committee, among them a man named Chase. He is a practitioner before the State courts and the Supreme Court of the United States. The Omaha delegation filed an objection to all hearings in the heirship cases on the Omaha Reservation, making this objection that in not any of the cases was there a fair hearing and not any of the men who were appointed as special examiners were quali- fied to give them a fair consideration under the laws of the State ot Nebraska. In addition to the four delegates who were present was Mr. F. La Flesche, who is employed by the Bureau of Ethnology, and a member of the Omaha Tribe of Indians. He is a graduate of a law college here in the city. He said that the decisions of the exam- iners sent to go on the Omaha Reservation ignored the laws in part and in part observed them; that there were decisions involving the same principles where the same man had decided them both ways, so that the decisions were irregular, not uniform, and unfair and unjust in their application to individual members of the Omaha Tribe. The same persons who acted on the Omaha Reservation weie employed as special examiners upon the Winnebago Reservation, and their action was similar there to what it was on the Omaha Reservation. The determination of this question, the descent of property accord- ing to the laws of descent of the State of Nebraska, involves a judicial question, and the executive officers of the Government are not compe- tent and are not endowed with judicial power to make determinations of that kind. That persons who have been sent to the reservations have been so deficient in their qualifications that the law has been almost entirely ignored, so much so that even in one family and in one case you wiU find decisions on both sides of the principle involved, and the records of the Indian Office will bear out that assertion. A duty incumbent upon the United States Government in handling this trust estate is the act of issuing fee patents and the ultimate turn- ing over of the property to those persons who are entitled under the law to it. That is also the duty of a trustee, in which capacity the United States acts in handling the trust patents. Beyond that, when it comes to the actual controversy before the Indian Office and the Interior Department, then it should not be final between those per- sons contending, because that controversy reaches a judicial deter- mination or judicial power, and the Indians should have a right to have their day in court. The present provision of law has been con- strued by at least two circuit courts of appeals as giving the Secretary of Interior the final disposition of this property under his charge, and INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 315 I feel that it is in violation of the constitutional rights of property and is a denial of due process, and also a denial of the Indians' day in court concerning the property, to take from them final court action. I feel that some amendment ought to be made in order that the Indians should feel that they had not been unjustly dealt with or the law improperly construed and defined, and that we may have some judicial determination in this case. Mr. Mejiitt. WiU you give us the names of the examiners that you have in mind ? Mr. Sloan. Mr. Edgerton was one; Mr. Pollock and Mr. Tunison. I called Mr. Tunison's attention to some of these discrepancies, and he told me he had reached the point where he did not care a danm for the law, that he decided the cases just as he pleased. ' Senator Townsend. He told you that ? Mr. Sloan. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. As I understand you, you want these cases decided in the probate court ; you want a court determination instead of the provision that has been used by the department in having it determined by a commission? Mr. Sloan. I can not say that I care to have it turned over to the Erobate court because of this fact. There are a great many of these eirship cases that can be settled by the department because there is no controversy. Probably haK or 75 per cent of the cases wiU be determined without any controversy. The heirship is so direct and the law so clear and plain in its application that there can be no question about it. Then there is the expense of going to court, and the Government has to reach a conclusion anyway — and I feel that as far as the work being done is concerned it ought to be done by the Government, but there should be a right to judicial determination. Senator Lane. Then, in such case, where there is a controversy, they would apply to the court? Mr. Sloan. Yes, sir; they would apply to the court and there would be an examination by the Secretary of the Interior. Senator Townsend. I want to ask, if you know, what is the average expense of adjusting these heirship cases through this commission as compared with the cost of similar cases in the probate courts ? Mr. Sloan. In Nebraska I will say there is practically no differ- ence. The time necessary for the Indians to attend at the agency before an examiner who is appointed — which takes their time, and which, before the probate court, would be charged up as costs, would, in their effect, be the same. Senator Townsend. A case was brought up here before, not with regard to these particular Indians, the Omahas, but in Oklahoma, which showed that there was a great difference in the cost of adjudi- cation between these parties claimant, and I was wondering if you had looked into it and knew about it. Mr. Sloan. I looked that up in Oklahoma when I was there, and I think the charges there have been unreasonable and unfair and a lot of them unnecessary. There is this about it: Oklahoma is a new country and the reservations are large, and the distances traveled are great, and that, in the ordinary course, would amount to more than it would in Nebraska. _ _. ^. ., Senator Lane. It says here that it shall not apply to the Five Civil- ized Tribes in Oklahoma; they are exempt. 316 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. There is a special law that applies to the Five Civil- ized Tribes. Senator Lane. They are exempt. It says: Provided further, That the provisions of this act shall not apply to the Osage Indians nor to the Five Civilized Tribes of Indians in Oklahoma. Mr. Meritt. We have a special act of May 27, 1908, which gives the local courts of the Five Civilized Tribes jurisdiction. MLr. Sloan. I might say with reference to the Five Civilized Tribes and the Osages that Senator Owen said to me that he objected to that provision of heirehip applying to the Five Civilized Tribes, because it was a judicial question and the exercise of judicial power that could not properly be vested in executive officers of the Govern- ment, and therefore he objected to its applying to his Indians, or to his State. Mr. Meritt. I might say, Mr. Chairman, that the Five Civilized Tribes of Indians have always had special laws applicable to that countr}-, and in those general laws we always make an exception to the Five Civilized Tribes, because of the fact that they have special laws applicable. Senator Townsend. What do you know about this cost, Mr. Meritt ? Mr. Meritt. The record shows that it costs as high as 20 per cent of the property of the Indians to have their affairs administered in the local courts of Oklahoma. That has been the experience in the past. That cost, of course, is exorbitant. Commissioner Sells, however, has recently made a very strong effort to cure that unfavorable condition. He went to Oklahoma for that special purpose, and organized a force there which will look very carefully after the interests of those Indians hereafter. The county judges of eastern Oklahoma are cooperating with the department, and under the leadership of Com- missioner Sells they have agreed to certain regulations and to certain fixed charges which are reasonable. Hereafter it will not take 15 or 20 per cent of the property of the Indian wards 'to pa}" costs and attorney's fees, as has in many instances been the case in the past. Senator Townsend. Do you know "the people be damned" ex- aminer who Mr. Sloan has spoken of here ? Mr. Meritt. I know the young attorney to whom he refere. Senator Townsend. Is he still in the employ of the Government ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. I would like to add this, that this act by which the appropriations are made, in the act of June 25, 1910, applies only to trust allotments, and in respect to them I wish to say that it makes no difference what the cost of litigation may be; it makes no differ- ence what the cost may be, this is a trust estate, and the title to it is held by the Government and all rents and moneys derived from it are held in trust by the United States. Not a cent of it is available for attorneys' fees, court costs, or otherwise. It is absolutely within the power and control of the Indian Office to see that no raid is made upon those estates through any court litigation, and the litigants must themselves meet the necessary costs, whatever they may be, and the entire estate, the land itself or the proceeds therefrom, are so completely within the jurisdiction and control of the United States that there can be no unreasonable or unjust charges forced against them. If paid out of the estates, it must be by the Indian Office. INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. 317 Mr. Meritt. The law under which the Secretary of the Interior is acting in this matter is found in section 1 of the act of June 25, 1910, and I will read just a part of this section so that the committee will have the language in mind : That when any Indian to whom an allotment of land has been made, or may here- after be made, dies before the expiration of the trust period and before the issuance of a fee simple patent, without having made a will disposing of said allotment as herein- after provided, the Secretary of the Interior, upon notice and hearing, under such rules as he may prescribe, shall ascertain the legal heirs of such decedent, and his decision thereon shall be final and conclusive. If the Secretary of the Interior decides the heir or heirs of such decedent competent to manage their own affairs, he shall issue to such heir or heirs a patent in fee for the allotment of such decedent; if he shall decide one or more of the heirs to be incompetent he may, in his discretion, cause such lands to be sold: Provided, That if the Secretary of the Interior shall find that the lands of the decedent are capable of partition to the advantage of the heirs, he may cause the shares of such as are competent, upon their petition, to be set aside and patents in fee to be issued to them therefor. All sales of lands allotted to Indians authorized by this or any other act shall be made under such rules and regulations and upon such terms as the Secretary of the Interior may prescribe, and he shall require a deposit of ten per centum of the purchase price at the time of the sale. Should the pur- chaser fail to comply with the terms of sale prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior, the amount so paid shall be forfeited; in case the balance of the purchase price is to be paid in deferred payments, a further amount, not exceeding fifteen per centum of the purchase price may be so forfeited for failure to comply with the terms of the sale. All forfeitures shall inure to the benefit of the heirs. Upon payment of the purchase price in full, the Secretary of the Interior shall cause to be issued to the purchaser patent in fee for such land: Provided, That the proceeds of the sale of inherited lands shall be paid to such heir or heirs as may be competent and held in trust subject to use and expenditure during the trust period for such heir or heirs as mat be incompetent, as their respective interests shall appear: Provided further, That the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized in his discretion to issue a certificate of competency, upon application therefor, to any Indian, or in case of his death, to his heirs, to whom a patent in fee containing restrictions on alienation has been or may hereafter be issued, and such certificate shall have the effect of removing the restrictions on alienation contained in such patent: Provided further, That hereafter any United States Indian agent, superintendent, or other disbursing agent of the Indian Service may deposit Indian moneys, individual or tribal, coming into his hands as custodian, in such bank or banks as he may select: Provided, That the bank or banks so selected by him shall first execute to the said disbursing agent a bond, with approved surety, in such amount as will properly safeguard the funds to be deposited. Such bonds shall be subject to the approval of the Secretary of the Interior. I want to say, Mr. Chairman, that this legislation was incorporated in this act at the request of Representative Burke, of South Dakota, whom you all recognize as one of the most learned men in Congress on the Indian question. He procured this legislation because of the faqt that the Indians were more or less imposed upon by the local courts, which usually are not particularly interested in the welfare of the Indians. The attorneys would procure large fees, and attorneys have a way of collecting their fees regardless of the fact that the property may be held under trust. The Indians, naturally receiving payment, already have individual moneys to their credit, and the attorneys, if they were permitted to decide these cases in the local courts, would charge the Indians an excessive price and they would be deprived of a very large share of their property rights. I consider this one of the best laws for the benefit of the Indians that I know of with respect to conserving their estates. We have only recently organized this force, and necessarily there were, during the first year, some mistakes. We have got the force now carefully organized. The Civil Service Commission has held examinations. We have on that hst of eligibles men who have filled responsible 318 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. positions in their respective states. Some of them have been judges, and some of them prominent lawyers, and I feel that this legislation should not be modified, but the department should be allowed this appropriation so that it may continue this good work. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, 90 per cent of these cases are not seriously contested. The law is so plain that there is no ques- tion about who shall be the heirs. In a few cases there are serious contests, and there is a serious question as to who are the heirs. Those cases are gone over very carefully by the special examiner in the field. He transmits the case to the Indian Office. The cases are gone over there by trained lawyers who, under the recent organization, are making a specialty of the estates in certain States^ They therefore learn the laws of those States and the decisions of those States relating to the distribution of property in those States. After the case is worked up in the Indian Office by the law clerks, it goes to the board of review and is finally signed by the commis- sioner or the assistant commissioner, who transmits the case to the Interior Department, where it is gone over by the law force and signed by the Assistant Secretary. The heirship cases are now receiving very careful and earnest consideration, and I believe we ought to be given the opportunity to continue this good work, which was only recently begun, and is now thoroughhr organized, so that we can do effective work for the benefit of the Indians. Senator Townsend. I wish to say at this point that I have investi- gated the matter and I am quite m sympathy with the proposition to determine these matters as far as practicable and possible by the commission because of the expense. I know that the expense is simply something terrible, and they have been subject to design- ing lawyers, who have made more money, a good deal, than the Indians; they have taken all their property, in fact. But I want to ask Mr. Meritt if there are not some cases that come up where there ought to be a judicial determination. Mr. Meritt. There may be a few cases here and there that might well go to the court for final determination. Senator Townsend. Have you any discretion ? Have you got to take aU these cases, whether they are cases that you can handle equitably and fairly for the interests of the Indians, and those that involve legal questions and which should go to the department or the courts ? Have you any discretion as to separating those cases under this act? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Townsend. You have to decide on all of them ? Mr. Meritt. The Secretary has final authority, and I believe that it would probably be well, at least for the present, to continue the existing law without change. We have with us a lawyer who repre- sents the Creek Nation. He was one of the good probate judges of Oklahoma, and knows thoroughly the conditions in eastern Okla- homa which resulted in the law of May 27, 1908, which placed the jurisdiction in the local courts. I would be glad to have the com- mittee hear from him. Senator Townsend. There is no question about that. I know that. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 319 Mr. Meritt, If there is any question about it, I wish the commit- tee could hear from Judge Allen. He is present. y Mr. Sloan. I have another point that I wish to speak of before I retire. The objections urged by the Omaha delegation was that the agency interpreter acted at all times, and that he got in the habit 01 showing favoritism, either to certain parties claiming an interest, or the attorneys representing them. That the agency force became arbitrary to such an extent that they disregard the law and the facts both, and that the failure of a proper judicial review simply confis- cates or forfeits the property of some of the claimants concerned. Untn last year the examining officer did not have authority to ad- minister oaths, and a lot of testimony upon which decisions were made is not testimony at all. There is in evidence statements that were carelessly made, for which there is no liability. Wrongful, false, and fraudulent statements are made, and the record upon which the deci- sions stand, disposing of millions of dollars worth of property, is not evidence and not right. Among the Omahas the lands there are all worth from $45 to $145 an acre, and so far as the Omaha allotment law is concerned, the laws of the State of Nebraska by which property descends have been absolutely ignored in a great many cases con- cerning the transmission of property. STATEMENT OF R. C. ALLEN, OF MUSKOGEE, OKLA. Mr. Allen. Mr. Chairman, Mi*. Meritt is mistaken in the state- ment that I have been a judge of the probate court in Oklahoma. I was for three years and one-half judge of the district court for the Muskogee district, and in that office reviewed a great many of the probate cases appealed to that court from the probate court of Mus- Kogee and Wagoner Counties. I think I am more familiar — probabljr by virtue of having held this office — with the troubles we are having in arriving at heirships in Oklahoma than I would have been in the office of probate judge. It has been one of the great troubles that we have experienced in dealing With land titles in Oklahoma, in arriving at who are the heirs of deceased Indians. You will find the bar divided, and I believe that, as far as it is practicable, you ought to leave the determination of the heirships to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Senator Townsend. What objection would there be to taking an appeal to the commissioner's finding in case where it was thought best by the Indian to take an appeal ? Would there be much wrong done in that ? Mr. Allen. Well, I was thinking a while ago, when you said that there are cases where the court ought to be permitted to determine the heirship that I did not know how you could classify the legis- lation so as to permit certain cases to go to the courts and certain cases to be determined by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Senator Townsend. I am talking about an appeal. I do not know that you could take an appeal from the finding of the commissioner directly to the court, but I was wondering if there was anything in the way. We first permit the commissioner here to pass upon and de- termine the heirs, and, instead of saying that should be final, what is the objection to an appeal being taken in cases where the Indians wanted to take an appeal to the court from that ? 320 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Allen. Well, it would result in tying up the estate for an indefinite period of time. That is the only result that I see that could be experienced. Senator Townsend. Do you think appeals would be taken fre- quently ? Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. And for the purpose of tying up the estate? Mr. Allen. So far as the best interests of the Indian himself are concerned, I have no doubt that a great majority of them would rather have their affairs finally determined and their heirships finally determined by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. But it would give designing lawyers an opportunity^ to litigate the estates, if for no^ other reason than to seek a compromise of the claim. Senator Townsend. If the Indian himself — if a great majority of the Indians prefer this sentiment, they will take no appeal. Mr. Allen. The attorneys who would be influencing them in those cases would almost invariably, in my judgment. I think in Okla- homa to-day there is a new era. There is an overwhelming senti- ment in that State in favor of the protection of the' estates of the Indian minors. That sentiment has been aroused since Mr. Sells has become Commissioner of Indian Affairs, since he has visited Okla- homa and cooperated with the Indian judges. The Chairman. Is any prosecution of those probate judges being delayed or brought about ? Mr. Allen. The cases where exposures occurred have nearly all been barred by the statute of Umitations. In fact, they have been unable to get any direct evidence of corruption on the part of the county judges, but they have shoAvn extravagant and criminal care- lessness on the part of the county judges in administering the estates of minors in the past. At the last election, I think, throughout the State the people elected men who are honest and capable, and who are now doing their utmost in every county in the Indian Territory to properly protect and preserve the estates of minors. In my nation — the Creek Nation —we have eight counties, and I have no complaint to make of any county judge in that district. Every one of them is cooperating with the office and with the six probate attorneys appointed by the commissioner, and who work under me very splendidly. Senator Townsend. What is your position ? Mr. Allen. National attorney for the Creek Indians. It is an office appointed by the chief and approved by the President of the United States, with the authority of an act of Congress. I would be very glad to see the question of heirship in those matters— and I would be very glad to see it in important matters affecting my Indians— left to the determination of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. We have the question of the distribution of funds now on deposit to the credit of the Creek Nation. I expect to ask this com- , mittee to amend that bill so as to permit the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to finally determine the question of heirship and the pay- ment of that money to the heirs of deceased Indians. Senator Townsend. Is that more economical than to go through the courts? Mr. Allen. Oh, much more. Senator Townsend. How much more ? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 321 Mr. Allen. There is no expense at all attached to that, and there is a tremendous expense attached to any determination of any matter in the courts. It necessitates the employment and the payment of attorneys, while this procedure is done by the determmation, or i^ made by the field clerks, and by probate attorneys and tribal attor- neys, representing the Indians. Senator Page. Yoq speak for the Creek Indians ? Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. Senator Page. And you feel, speaking for them, that you represent them very nearly unanimously when you say that they prefer to have the court of last resort the Commissioner of Indian Affairs ? You do not want any appeal from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs ? Mr. Allen. In determining the question of heirship for the purpose of distributing their property. Senator Page. And what you say in regard to the Creek Indians is probably true with regard to other Indians ? Mr. Allen. I think so. Senator Townsend. There are two sides to this question. Of course, you are on the ground, and you ought to know more about it than I do, or the other members of this committee, but I am wonder- ing whether it is not possible under this plan, where some Indians are entitled to heirship property, some of the heirs to be overlooked through carelessness, or something else, or lack of process issued by the court, and they would be thereafter foreclosed from ever getting any of their rights. Mr. Allen. That is true in litigation. Sometimes the courts de- cide wrong. I think the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, or the at- torneys that he has to refer these matters to, who are familiar with this particular class of litigation, would be in a better position than the majority of the courts would, to determine correctly the heirship. I know, as judge of the district court down there for three and a half years, that it was one of the perplexing problems that I had to con- tend with, just who the heirs were in certain cases. We have had in. the Indian Territory the Arkansas law, and then we had the Kansas law, and the various acts of Congress, and the Oklahoma Territory statutes within the past 8 or 10 years. Senator Townsend. Your county judge is the probate judge, is he t Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. And appeals are taken from the county court to you ? Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. So you have had experience with a great many probate judges or county judges ? Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Is it true in your jurisdiction — as stated by Mr. Sloan — that there are decisions on both sides of these various questions ? Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. One class of heirs are entitled under one law, or one claim, and others united under some other claim ? Mr. Allen. It is impossible for any lawyer to even give an opinion on the question of heirship until he has determined when the allottee died, just when he was allotted, and when the certificate was issued to him, and all of those things — things with which the commis- 39746— PT 1—14 21 322 INDIAN- APPROPRIATION BILL. sioner's office is more familiar than any man practicing law in Okla- Ixoma to-dav. As I said a while ago, we have had so many differ- ent laws with regard to distribution in Oklahoma, that it is now one of the serious questions in the State. Senator Page. Do you know of any one in Washington who is opposing your views in regard to this matter ? Mr. Allen. No, sir; I do not. Senator Page. You do not think there are any opposing your views ? Mr. Allen. I do not know that it has ever been raised. Just a few minutes ago was the first time I have heard any discussion of it. Senator Page. As I have heard you discuss this matter, it seems to me that the Indians ought to be allowed to say that they do not want an appeal. If they do not, who ought to ratify their views ? As you say, you think you represent the Creeks, and you think that all the other tribes, if they were permitted to speak, would say what you say for the Creeks ? Mr. Allen. I should think so. I am sure it is for the best inter- ests of the Indian himself. Senator Page. Well, it must be for the best interests of your State to get these claims adjusted. I know you are having lots of trouble there with regard to your Indian titles, and it is difficult for you to borrow money on the land there. Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; we have had, and are having, a tremendous lot of trouble over the lands in Oklahoma, largely by reason of con- flict in various acts that have been put in force in the Indian Terri- tory and Oklahoma. Senator Page. Could there not be some readjustment of those con- flicting statutes so as to bring order out of chaos ? Mr. Allen. I think any attempt to readjust them would produce more conflict. That is one of the troubles now. Senator Lane. Mr. Chairman, Mrs. Gray says that she knows of some Indians who are not satisfied. Mrs. Gray. I was on the Crow Reservation in September and October, when Mr. Kitch was making his findings, and 1 do not think anything could have been any more unfair to the Crows than the way he was doing it. I happened to be in the agent's office when he was preparing his cards; he had a stenographer working with idm; he did not know one of those Indians, and she did not know many of them; they would take up a card and say: '^Has not this Indian any relations ?'' They would say: "Yes, he has got a grand- mother down there and a cousin somewhere else.'' The result was they did not see haK the will contained or half the heirs. It was just the most careless thing I ever saw. Thousands of dollars' worth of property was involved. Now, in one case you can find a record, and that is the case of Knows-the-Ground. Knows- the-Ground is an Indian there who was opposing these beef-trust leases very strenuously. On the other hand there was another Indian named Ralph Saco, who was for them. Ralph Saco had been a conditional farmer for some time in one of the districts where an old man died, and there was a will on file by which this old Indian left his land to Ralph Saco. Knows-the-Ground was the son of that old Saco. Mr. Kitch called the hearing. He sent seven times for Knows-the-Ground to come from San Sagor off the Crow Agency. It is a distance which INDIAN- APPROPRIATIOISr BILL. 323 it takes him four days to make the trip. He came there seven times, and at no time did Mr. Kitch have the principal witnesses there, but always Ralph was there, and in all that time Knows-the-Ground never saw the will, and it is generally beUeved that Ralph wrote the will nimself, and Ralph got the property. There is no appeal from that. That is just one instance. I know in famiHes— you take Old Horn and Big Medicine, two brothers; they should certainly inherit exactly the same, because they are inheriting from their father. Big Medicine gets the property and Old Horn does not. Frank Shively was here at one time. He had 73 patents in his pockets that had come to him and his wife. They did not belong to him at all. The heirship matters on the Crow Reservation are just as bad as they can be. The records will show that, and there is no appeal at all. ^^ There is another case, Louis Bombord. Louis was a nephew of a woman who died. He was not notified at all that there was any hearing. It was adjudicated without his being present; he hved Tight there at the agency and they knew who he was. The result is going to be that some time there will be an appeal, then these cases that have been decided so outrageously will have to be settled in some way, and you will have a worse tangle not settling them straight now than if something is done about it. Mr. Meritt. I might say that the regulations require that there shall be notice and hearings in all these cases. The special examiner keeps in close touch with the superintendents and the other employees on the on the reservation and they find out who are the prospective heirs to an estate. They send notices to all these prospective heirs and a notice of the hearings is distributed and the Indians have an opportunity to be heard on these cases before the record is trans- mitted to the Indian Office. After it is transmitted to the Indian Office, if they are not satisfied with the record that is made up by the examiner, the Indians can submit a showing to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Mrs. Gray. How could Knows-the-Ground submit a showing ? It is impossible, because his letter would be sent to the Indian Office and sent by them right to the agent, and the agent would act upon it and Ejiows-the-Ground would have no voice at all. Mr. Meritt. Even after the case is passed upon by the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs, the opportunity is still open for a hearing before the Secretary of the Interior, and after the Secretary of the Interior renders his decision in the case, if there is an error in the decision, or if it is discovered that there is an heir who was not included, that heir has a right to make his appeal to the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs for a rehearing, and if anything like a satis- factory basis is made for a rehearing that rehearing is granted. They have every opportunity to have rehearings before the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs and the Secretary of the Interior, and I venture to state that there are fewer errors made by the Interior Department in the determination of the heirs under the act of June 25, 1910, than are made by the courts in eastern Oklahoma. And the conditions outside of eastern Oklahoma would even be worse if the local courts had to determine the heirs, because the Indians would have to travel for miles and miles to the county seats, often clear 324 , INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. off their reservation, and they would be put to great expense not only in traveling but in procuring lawyers to represent them before the courts. This is one of the most beneficial pieces of legislation that has been enacted for years in behalf of the Indians. The Chairman. We could not change the existing legislation on this appropriation bill anyhow, if we wanted to, because it would be obnoxious to the point of order if we tried to change the existing order in this appropriation bill. Senator Gronna. You were speaking of the present law, were you not, Mr. Commissioner? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Is there anything in the present law that pro- poses to change it ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Mr. Bentley. I should like to offer a suggestion before this closes. I agree with Judge Allen and with Mr. Meritt. I think in the main they are correct. I think the inception of the cases should be before the Indian officials rather than before the courts; but as has been shown here in the office Indian employees and Indian agents, these people are factional and unfair sometimes. These Indians are not given opportunity. Frequently cases have come under my obser- vation where Indians are not treated fairly and where property has descended to the wrong person. It is my judgment, from a good deal of experience, that in the iinalitj^ of this there should be an appeal from the Secretary of the Interior to the United States dis- trict court of the district from which the litigation came, and if you will do that and the Indians will agree, testimony can very readily be taken by deposition and he can substantiate his case, but he can not come here to Washington. It costs him $150 at least to come to Washington. No attorney worth anything would come here for less than $250, and more often $500, and if you leave the statute as it is you shut the Indian out if he feels he is aggrieved. You raise the bars against him. I am certain if the statute stands as it is and without appeal from the Secretary to the United States district court that oiten Indians will be deprived absolutely of their inheritances. Mr. Meritt. In the case of wiUs, Mr. Chairman, I might say that the Secretary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs have authority to withhold approval of these wills if they are not just and fair, and there is no trouble on that score. The Chairman. What will you do with item No. 17, page 10 of the comparison? Two amendments have been proposed by the Com- missioner of Indian Affairs. Senator Lane. Have you heard them? Senator Townsend. No, sir. Mr. Meritt. We are asking that two provisos be inserted after the word ''Oklahoma'' in line 9, page 11. The first proviso reads: Provided further ^ That hereafter upon the determination of the heirs of a deceased Indian by the Secretary of the Interior there shall be paid by such heirs or from the estate of such deceased Indian or deducted from the proceeds from the sale of the land of the deceased allottee, or from any trust funds belonging to the estate of the decedent, the sum of $10, to cover the cost of determining the heirs to the estate of the said deceased allottee, which amount shall be accounted for and paid into the Treasury of the United States and a report made annually to Congress by the Secretary of the INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. 325 Interioi on or before the first Monday in December of all moneys collected and depos- ited as herein directed. If you will recall, last year Congress allowed us $10,000 out of a $50,000 appropriation. We are now asking $20,000 out of a $100,000 appropriation. We h'ave about 40,000 heirship cases pending in the field, representing property rights amounting to about $60,000,000, and these estates should be determined at the very earliest date, because the longer they are deferred the more compHcated they become. The next proviso reads : Provided further. That the Commissioner of Indian Affairs is hereby authorized to use not to exceed $20,000 for the employment of additional clerks in the Indian Office in connection with the work of determining the heirs of deceased Indians, out of the $100,000 appropriated herein. This changes the existing law" by reducing the amount collected from the heirs from $15 to $10. We have found that we can do this work on an average for $10 a case. This item will bring back into the Treasury about the same amount as appropriated, so it will cost the Government not a dollar to determine these estates. Senator Townsend. I understood the judge to say it would not cost anything. Mr. Allen. I said it does not cost the Indian anything. Mr. Meritt. Under the existing law, Judge Allen, outside of the Five Civilized Tribes, it costs the Indians $15. Mr. Allen. I do not know about the condition in the other tribes. I was speaking of the Five Civilized Tribes. Mr. Meritt. We propose to reduce this amount to $10, because experience has shown that the average cost is about $10 a case. The Chairman. Outside of the Five Civilized Tribes ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Mr. Thomas L. Sloan. May I make a suggestion at this time? The Chairman. Yes; you may. Mr. Sloan. One of the things lacking is, in requiring compulsory attendance of witnesses the agency police are used, and they are generally interested upon one side or the other, and their influence instead of being good is detrimental to one party or the other, and either the appropriations should provide that proper hearings should be had, or the regulations should govern the matter. There is no question but what if the administration of these matters was put in the hands of competent persons; if competent persons were put in charge of those hearings, that they might be all right, but my expe- rience has been to the contrary. Mr. Meritt. We would have no objection, Mr. Chairman, to a proviso requiring the compulsory attendance of witnesses under such rules and regulations as the Secretary of the Interior may prescribe. The Chairman. Will you prepare that amendment ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. It seems to me there is force m the suggestion on both sides, that they should have processes to compel the attendance of witnesses. Mr. Meritt. We will have no objection to it. The Chairman. You will prepare the ameiidmeat and offer it ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. , . j. , i ^ The Chairman. The question is on the adoption ol the amendments proposed. Is there any objection to them ? 326 INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. The amendments were agreed to. The Chairman. The question then is on the item amended. The item as amended was agreed to, r • r. The Chairman. That is with the understanding, Mr. Mentt, that you will prepare an amendment which will afford the opportunity to both sides to compel the attendance of witnesses. The next item is No. 31. That is over until the people on the warehouse question have been here on April 1 , I think. Senator Page. I am getting many letters about that. BRIDGE ACROSS GILA RIVER, The Chairman. I am also getting lots of letters. We will take that up on next Wednesday at 2 o'clock. The next item is No. 31, not found in the printed bill, but discussed at page 307 of the hearings, a bridge across the Gila Kiver, $1,000. Senator Page. What was the objection to that in the House, Mr. Commissioner ? Mr. Meritt. There was no objection that I heard made by any members of the House committee, only that the item was left out of the bill. We would hke to have the estimates of the department so as to determine the cost of this bridge, which is needed. Senator Page. This is not to pay lor the bridge, then? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; simply for the purpose of providing for an investigation to determine the cost and feasibihty of constructing the bridge at a certain location. The bridge is very much needed, Mr. Chairman. Senator Page. Did we not have that same item in our previous appropriation bills ? Mr. Meritt. We have had other bridge items, but not this item. The justification of the item is found on page 307 of the House hear- Senator Lane. The latter part of the justification reads: The country adjacent to the reservation is fast filling up with white settlers and traffic back and forth from one side of the river to the other is rapidly increasing, both as to whites and Indians. Is this bridge to be paid for out of Indian funds exclusively or white funds ? Mr. Meritt. This bridge ought to be paid for out of a gratuity appropriation. The Chairman. There is force in your suggestion as to this par- ticular bridge. Mr. Meritt. This appropriation is simply to make the survey, and after investigation if we find that the white people will share m the bridge, which is undoubtedly true, we will ask that at least one- half of the cost be provided by the local community. Senator Page. This is in your State, Mr. Chairman? The Chairman. Yes. Senator Page. I move we adopt the item. The item was agreed to. The Chairman. The next item is one on which I wish to be heard for a moment, and I will ask Senator Townsend if he will not take the chair. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 327 BRIDGE ACROSS COLORADO RIVER, FORT MOHAVE INDIAN RESERVATION. The Chairman. This is a new item, No. 32^, found at page 18 of the printed bill, for a bridge across the Colorado River on the Fort Mohave Indian Reservation in Arizona. The bill itself provides for SI ,000 to investigate and report upon the necessity, practicability, and feasibility of a bridge across the Great Colorado River at To- pock, Ariz. There are 844 Indians, if I am correct, on the Fort Mohave Indian Reservation, and those of you who know our great western rivers know how dangerous it is at times to cross this river. My colleague has been called to Arizona. He has a bill pending. Calendar No. 84, which has for its purpose the appropriation of $25,000, being one-third of the cost of the bridge there; $25,000 to be paid by the State of Arizona, and another $25,000 to be paid by the State of California, the bridge to be built under the directions of the War Department so as to preserve the navigability of the stream, if there be any navigability, and I have here a report of the depart- ment which I should like to read. This is from the Assistant Secre- tary of the Interior: Department of the Interior, Washington, March 21, 1914. My Dear Senator: February 7, 1914, Senator Stone submitted to me copy of bill S. 4304, '*To provide for the construction of a bridge across the Colorado River at or near Topock, Ariz." It seems that this matter was first brought to the attention of the Indian Department by you on October 31, 1913. Not being advised fully as to the facts, the superintendent in charge of the Fort Mohave Indian Reservation was called upon for a report and a copy of his reply, dated November 13, 1913, is herewith for your information. It appears therefrom that a bridge at the point suggested would be of great benefit to the white settlers in the vicinity and also to the Indians of the Fort Mohave Reserva- tion. I would be glad to see the enactment of the bill in its present form. In this connection, however, your attention is invited to a provision in the pending Indian appropriation bill, as it passed the House of Representatives, appropriating $1,000 for the purpose of an investigation of the conditions with respect to the neces- sity of constructing a bridge across the Colorado River near the Fort Mohave Reserva- tion. The department prefers legislation along the line suggested in S. 4304. It has oc- curred to me that possibly the provision in this bill may be incorporated in the Indian bill in place of the item referred to. Very truly, yours, A. A. Jones, First Assistant Secretary. Hon. Henry F. Ashurst, Chairman Committee on Indian Affairs, ''■ United States Senate. As I say, there is no doubt that the construction of this bridge would be for the benefit of the whites as well as the Indians, and the two States are willing to pay two-thirds of it. Now, I wish to read what necessity appears, if any, as far as the Indians are concerned, for the construction of the bridge. This is a report from Mr. August F. Duclos, super'uitendent of the reservation, which I find here dated November 13, 1913, and is as follows: Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Fort Mohave Indian School, Mohave City, Ariz., November 13, 1913. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: In compliance with the instructions contained in your letter of November 3, to investigate the necessity for and the feasibility of a bridge across the Colorado River at Topock, Ariz., I have the honor to report as follows: 328 INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BILL. Needles, Cal. , is the market and supply point for this entire valley. The only means of communication across the Colorado River between the Arizona shore and Needles is a dilapidated gasoline ferry boat and private row boate owned by Indians. Crossing the river by the boats used, during the low stage of the river, is a long and disagreeable, not to say precarious, trip during the high stage it is a very hazardous undertaking, but this being the only means of crossing the river, people have to take the risk. Dur- ing the low stage it takes from one-half to one hour to cross the river; during high Water it takes from three to five hours to cross from Needles to the high land on the Arizona side, or vice versa. There are no satisfactory or safe means of communication between the Fort Mohave Indian Reservation and Needles, Cal. A bridge would be a great benefit to the Indians, and to the general public, and would furnish a safe means of reaching Needles during the flooded season. The location of the proposed bridge is at Topock, Ariz., which site has the only suit- able cross section of the Colorado River for a bridge in this vicinity. The river at this point is confined between high rock walls. The bridge of the Atchinson, Topeka & Santa Fe Railway is located at this point. The reservation extends within a mile of Topock, which point is 12 miles southeast of Needles. In view of the fact that the Oovemment appropriated $25,000 toward the construction of a bridge at Yuma, Ariz., an appropriation for $25,000 for this reservation is fully justified. The railroad bridge «,t Yuma furnished a safe means of crossing the river, while here there has never been a safe means of crossing. The great need of a bridge here is evident from the fact that, when the appropriation of 125.000 passed by the California Legislature was vetoed by the governor San Bernardino County came forward with the required amount. There is no wagon road above high water on the Arizona side of the river leading to the proposed bridge. I am informed that the board of supervisors of this county, Mohave, will appropriate sufficient money out of the road fund to build a road above high water to the bridge if the Government will appropriate $25,000 toward the con- struction of the bridge. If, from the foregoing, you feel justified in recommending to Congress an appropriation of $25,000, I would ask that this bill have the proviso mat Mohave' County shall build a wagon road above high water, commencing from a point where the Goldroads and Fort Mojave wa^on roads intersect in section 31, township 18 north, range 21 west, to the proposed bridge at Topock. The estimated cost of this road is $5,000. San Bernardino County has already built a wagon road to the bridge on the California side. In other words, he seems to think, and I beheve he is right, that if the bridge is to be built, that Mohave County ought to connect up that road with the proposed bridge — The cost of transporting freight from Needles to the school is 55 cents per hundred- weight. Most of the freight is ferried at Needles^and hauled in wagons to the school. The expense of hauling freight would not be lessened by the construction of the bridge. If a wagon road is built to Topock, the supplies for this agency and school could oe consigned to Topock, Ariz., and hauled the entire distance by wagons. There would be no risk then of damaging or losing supplies in ferrying, as has been the case in the past. In the summer of 1909, a boat load of supplies, amounting to $1,400, sank, and at other times supplies have been damaged by water. The Indians under this jurisdiction would derive beneficial use from the proposed bridge for trading purposes at Needles, for marketing their agricultural products, when their land is in a condition to be farmed, and for disposing of cord wood, which they cut on the reservation. I inclose herewith a letter received on the subject from Ur. L. Y. Root, of Needles, Oal., for your consideration. Very respectfully, Aug. F. Duclos, Superintendent, Senator Townsend. You are asking here, as I understand, simply 11,000 for the purpose for the Secretary of the Interior to investigate this matter? The Chairman. The Secretary has made his report subsequent and I want to ask for the $25,000 itself, since he says he wants this $25,000 substituted for the $1,000 item. Senator Townsend. Would jou want to do that before the State of Arizona has taken any steps in the matter at all ? You could not use the $25,000 under any circumstances until the bridge was agreed upon and the State had taken its steps. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 329 The Chairman. It would work the other way, Senator, if you \^ill pardon me. If the Federal Government made the appropriation of $25,000 it would not be available — the bill provides that it is not available until the State of California and the State of Arizona each deposit with the Secretary S25,000. They must each make the appropriation and place the money with the Secretary, and then the bridge will be built. Senator Gronna. We can say we will appropriate $2,5,000 provid- ing the States appropriate the same amounts^ The Chairman. That is the only way the bill should be drawn, of course. Senator Townsend. Did you want to put the bill in as an amend- ment ? The Chairman. Yes: I should like to substitute for this item No. 32^, Calendar No. 84, Senator. Senator Townsend. I have no objection to your getting what you want. Senator, but it seems to me that would be rather an unusual way to proceed on an appropriation bill, to engraft onto it another bill providing for an item which is to be consummated in the future by the action of a State. The Chairman. It is just like one last year. You will find it on page 18 of the comparison, near the bottom of the page, the second paragraph : For the construction of a bridge across the Colorado River from School Hill, on the Yuma Indian Reservation, in the State of California, to Penitentiary Hill, in the town of Yuma, in the State of Arizona, to be expended under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior, not to exceed the sum of $25,000, in the construction of a bridge, as recommended by the Secretary of the Interior in House Document No. 1020, Sixty-second Congress, third session: Provided, That no part of the money herein appropriated shall be expended until the Secretary of the Interior shall have obtained from the proper authorities of the State of Arizona and the State of Cali- fornia satisfactory guaranties of the payment by the said States, or by the county of Yuma, in the State of Arizona, and the county of Imperial, in the State of California, of at least two-thirds of the cost of said bridge, and that the proper authorities of the said States assume full responsibility for and will at all times maintain and repair said bridge and the approaches thereto. I want to suggest, though, that on Calendar No. 84 the following language should be added to it, if we adopt the amendment at all: And provided further, That the bridge shall be built in accordance with the provi- sions of the act entitled "An act to regulate the construction of bridges over naviga- ble waters," approved March 23, 1906. Senator Townsend. That certainly ought to be there. The Chairman. Yes. The Secretary of the Interior says that he wishes this $25,000 to be substituted for the $1,000, and the two States I am certain are willing to pay two-thirds of the amount and in the future bear all the expenses of maintenance Senator Gronna. I move that this provision be inserted. Senator Townsend. Do you not want time to put that in shape, Senator Ashurst, in connection with the item No. 32 J, so as to present a measure here that can be put in as a whole in place of that? The Chairman. I can do that, Senator, by simply taking the Calendar No. 84 and adding to it the language found here. Senator Gronna. As I understand, the language on'page 19 is the language you want, except a further proviso ? 330 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. Senator Townsend. Strike out 14, as we find it in the bill, alto- gether. Strike out and insert. The Chairman. Yes; that is what I should hke to see done, i do want the committee to know that there has been a great demand among the white people for this bridge. , Senator Lane. Are you going to make them pay their share lor the use of it ? The Chairman. Two-thirds, and its perpetual upkeep, i do not want any Senator here to feel that this is for the sole benefit of the Indians. I do say, however, it will save two or three lives a year, and the Indians can go over the bridge and not be required to use the old, ramshackle launch. No doubt this bridge will be traveled , by almost as many whites as Indians. There is no concealment of that fact. The two States themselves, at their expense, will main- tain it for the future. Senator Gronna. It seems to me it would be for the benefit of the Indians ; that it would increase the value of their land. Mr. Meritt. I might say that the Indian Office and the depart- ment will be glad to see the legislation suggested by the chairman inserted in the bill. This bridge is seriously needed at this point. Senator Lane. How much will it cost? - The Chairman. $75,000. Mr. Meritt. $75,000; and $50,000 of it will be supphed by the States of California and Arizona. The States of California and Ari- zona have already furnished their share of the money for the con- struction of the bridge across the Colorado River on the Yuma Reser- vation, and I doubt not that they will promptly supply their share of the funds sufficient to construct this bridge. Senator Gronna. May I inquire if the language in Calendar No. 84 is the language you wish ? The Chairman. Yes; now, if the Senators will permit, let me read it as it AviU appear. a bill To provide for the construction of a bridge across the Colorado River at or near Topock, A.rizona. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That there is hereby appropriated, out of any money in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated, not to exceed the sum of $25,000, and in no event more than one-third of the sum that may be necessary for the construction of a bridge across the Colorado River at or near Topock, in the State of Arizona, to be expended under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior: Provided, That no part of the money herein appropriated shall be expended until the Secretary of the Interior shall have obtained from the proper authorities of the State of Arizona and the State of California satisfactory guaranties of the payment, by the said States, of at least two- thirds of the cost of said bridge; and that the proper authorities of the said States assume full responsibility for, and will at all times maintain and repair said bridge and the approaches thereto: And provided further, That the bridge shall be built in accord- ance with the provisions of the act entitled ' ' An act to regulate the constructions of bridges over navigable waters," approved March twenty-third, nineteen hundred and six. Senator Gronna. The only difference in that language and the language contained in the bill last year is that it does not mention the place Topock. Am I correct? The Chairman. Yes; that is true, Senator. This language here, requiring it to be built under the act to regulate the construction of bridges, requires that the War Department certify that it will not interfere with navigation. INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL.. 331 Senator Townsend. Then ought you not to reserve the right to amend, alter, and so forth? The Chairman. That is true. I should hke to include the report of the department and the report of the agent. The Chairman. Is there any further discussion of the item? ' Senator Gronna. I move that the item be approved and agreed to. (The item was agreed to.) REIMBURSEMENT OF M. D. COLGROVE. The Chairman. The next is item No. 56, not found in the printed bill, reimbursement of M. D. Colgrove, $6. Mr. Meritt. This is a small claim. The superintendent expended 16 to repair the jail, in which an Indian had been incarcerated. There were no funds available to reimburse the superintendent. It is a small claim, and the superintendent is getting a reasonable salary, so rather than have the item go in the bill as a claim we will not insist on it, in view of the desire of the committee to keep as many claims off the bill as possible. It is a small amount, and the superintendent can afford to lose $6. Senator Gronna. Unless the commissioner is opposing the item, I move that it be agreed to. Mr. Meritt. We are not opposing it. The amount is small; and if the committee wishes, we should hke to have it included in the bill. The Chairman. The Senator from North Dakota moves that the item be agreed to for $6. (The item was agreed to.) BALANCE DUE SAGINAW, SWAN CREEK, AND BLACK RIVER BANDS, CHIPPEWAS, MICHIGAN. The Chairman. There is another item presented to you, as I un- derstand, on behalf of some Chippewa Indians in Michigan for the sum of $30.65. Has that been submitted to you ? Mr. Meritt. We wrote you a letter on that. Senator Townsend. Have you received the letter ? Senator Townsend. I received a letter, but I sent my secretary down, and he said that he sent it up here with a recommendation to you, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Yes, I think I saw it. Senator Townsend. It has been allowed, but it has been held out from them in some way or other and they have just discovered the other day that they had that amount of money down here. I told Mr. Bradley that I did not want him to hire an attorney to collect $30.65 from the Government, if the Government admitted it owed it. Senator Gronna. Is there any objection to it? Mr. Meritt. There is no objection to this item. Senator. The item is a just one and we should be glad to see it incorporated in the bill. We have no funds to pjay the amount. Senator Townsend. The item is as follows : The Secretary of the Treasury is hereby authorized and directed to pay to Joseph Bradley attorney in fact for the Saginaw, Swan Creek, and Black River Bands of Chippewa Indians, Michigan, the balance of $30.65 in the Treasury and due these In- dians under the proviBions of article 2 of the treaty of August 2, 1855 (11 Stat. L., 633): &32 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Provided, however, That he shall before receiving the said sum execute as attorney in fact on behalf of these Indians a receipt in full therefor. I should like to have it paid, or I would hke to pay it myself. I should hke to get rid of the claim. It has been up here a long while, Mr. Meritt. The ledgers of the Indian Office show an unexpended balance in the Treasury of $30.65 due from the Government to the Saginaws and under article 2 of their treaty of August 2, 1855 (11 Stat. L., 633), it is very desu'able that this account be closed and the item taken from the books of the office. From correspondence sub- mitted to the office by Joseph Bradley, which correspondence has been returned to him, it was stated that he is a member of the said bands and has been recently appointed attorney in fact thereby, and , there is a petition signed by a large number of the members of these bands authorizing him as attorney in fact. It is shown also that the Indians request in a petition that he be paid the amount, as it is clear from the records that it is due and stiU remains on the books as unpaid. Senator Page. I move that the commissioner be dnected to pre- pare an amendment to be inserted in page 18, after hne 13, to cover this matter. The Chairman. If there is no objection that will be agreed to. (The motion was agreed to.) The Chairman. The commissioner will prepare the amendment and insert it. Mr. Meritt. I have the amendment here. Senator Page. I move the adoption of the amendment. The Chairman. The Senator from Vermont moves its adoption. (The motion was agreed to ) ISSUANCE OF PATENT IN FEE TO THE NORTHERN MINNESOTA CONFER- ENCE OF THE METHODIST EPISCOPAL CHURCH. The Chairman. The next item is No. 66J, page 27, of the printed bill, issuance of patent in fee to the Northern Minnesota Conference of the Methodist Lpiscopal Church, no amount. Senator Myers. What is that, Mr. Meritt? Mr. Meritt. We should like to have this legislation omitted from the bill. This church is entitled to a certain part of the land, but if adopted as passed by the House it would include certain Indian homes, which would be an injustice to the Indians who built on that reservation. We would like to have the item omitted from the bill. Senator Gronna. This is in Senator Clapp's State. I think we had better let that go over until the Senator is here. I suggest that it go over. The Chairman. It will go over. bridge across MISSISSIPPI RIVER NEAR CASS LAKE, MINN. The Chairman. The next item is No. 68, page 28, of the printed biU, for the construction of a bridge across the Mississippi River on the road between Cass Lake, Minn., and the Cass Lake Indian School in said State, $1,000. Senator Myers. On what reservation is that ? The Chairman. Cass Lake Reservation. INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. 333 Senator Myers. What is the necessity for the bridge ? Mr. Meritt. The Mississippi Kiver at that point is hardly fordable in certain seasons of the year. We have lost a number of horses, and it endangers the lives of the Government employees. This bridge is almost entirely for the benefit of the Indians and the employees in the Indian Service, and we would like to have the item as passed by the House. The Chairman. How much was allowed by the House ? Mr. Meritt. $5,000. Senator Myers. I move it be agreed to. Senator Page. You have $1,000 in your miscellaneous items. Mr. Meritt. We asked for an investigation, but the House allowed the amount necessary to construct the bridge. We have sufhcient data to show that the bridge is urgently needed and the House allowed the $5,000. (The item was agreed to.) EMPLOYMENT OF LINE RIDERS, NORTHERN CHEYENNE INDIAN RESER- VATION. The Chairman. The next item is No. 79, page 31 of the comparison, page 468 of the hearings. For the employment of line riders along the southern and eastern boundaries of the Northern Cheyenne Indian Reservation in the State of Montana, $1,500. Mr. Meritt. This item has been contained in the bill for a number of years. It is for the purpose of emploving hne riders on this reser- vation. We have not the fimds available to construct the fence and we would hke to have this item retained in the bill. Senator Page. The House allowed it, and I move that we allow it. Senator Lane. Let me inquire just a Uttle bit about that. Those line riders are the same as those others on the Blackfeet Reservation, employed for the same purpose, are they? Mr. Meritt. These Ime riders are employed on the Northern Cheyenne Reservation in Montana. Senator Lane. How many of them are there ? Mr. Meritt. Three, I think. Senator. Senator Lane. To take care of the stock of the Indians — to look out for it ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. They have very large stock holdmgs on that reservation. Senator Myers. What would a fence cost? Mr. Meritt. A fence would be rather expensive. It would cost a good many thousand dollars. These hne riders are also helpful m taking care of the Indian stock. Senator Gronna. Ordinary three-wire fence will cost you 75 cents a rod, about. Senator Myers. I was wondering how long the lence would be. Anyway it would be quite a large sum. I move that it be agreed to. i i • The Chairman. The Senator from Arkansas moves that the item be agreed to. ) (The item was agreed to.) S34 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. COUNSEL FOR PUEBLO INDIANS OF NEW MEXICO. The Chairman. The next is item No. 92, page 33 of the printed bill, page 504 of the hearings, for the pay of one special attorney for the Pueblo Indians of New Mexico, to be designated by the Secretary of the Interior, and for necessary traveling ex|)enses of said attorney, $2,000, or so much thereof as the Secretary of the Interior may deem necessary. ' Mr. Meritt. That amount has been allowed by the House, Mr. Chairman, and has been carried in the Indian bill for a number of years. Senator Myers. Is that a tribal attorney? Mr. Meritt. He is an attorney especially employed to conduct ' suits to recover certain lands of the Pueblo Indians. Senator Myers. How long have we been in the habit of employing an attorney ? Mr. Meritt. This attorney has been employed four or five years, and prior to the employment of this attorney there was another attorney who was engaged on this work. There are a number of suits pending in regard to the title of lands claimed by the Pueblo Indians. Senator Myers. Do you think a tribal attorney necessary? Mr. Meritt. This is not considered a tribal attorney, simply a special attorney employed to conduct these suits. Senator Myers. Do you know how many suits there are? Mr. Meritt. There is a justification for the item on page 504 of the House hearings, and we set out in detail there the litigation that is now pending. There are possibly 8 or 10 suits now pending. Senator Myers. Have you any intimation when this litigation will end ? Mr. Meritt. It will take two or three years longer, Senator, to complete this htigation. Senator Lane. It is a contest of old Spanish grants, I think, and is likely to run along for years. Mr. Meritt. It is very complicated litigation. The attorneys have to go back to the old Spanish grants to trace titles. Senator Myers. Have you looked into the records sufficiently to justify it in your own judgment? Mr. Meritt. We believe that the Indians have got claims to cer- tain lands and that they need the assistance of an attorney. vSenator Thompson. This attorney is employed most of the time? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Myers. Some of the suits seem to be set out here some- what in detail. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; we have gone into the matter in some detail. Senator Myers, I move that the item be agreed to. The Chairman. The Senator from Montana moves that the item be agreed to. (The item was agreed to.) PER CAPITA PAYMENTS TO THE MEXICAN KICKAPOOS. The Chairman. The next item is No. 117, page 41 of the printed biU. Senator La FoUette requested that it go over until he b6 present. Senator Myers. It ought to be passed, then. The Chairman. That will be passed. INDIAN APPBOPRIATION BILL. 335 ADMINISTRATION OF THE AFFAIRS OF THE FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The Chairman. The next item is No. 119, page 42 of the printed bill, page 578 of the hearings, administration of the affairs of the Five CiviUzed Tribes, $225,000. Senator Lane. We ought to go into that a httle more fully than we now Jiave time. The Chairman. Yes; we will take that up some time later. Senator Lane. Four o'clock has arrived. Before we quit I want to ask a question or two here. It seems as though we have a ste- nographer here taking this down, these so-called hearings before this committee, and making a record of it, and I presume it is to be printed — this permanent record ? The Chairman. Yes. Senator Lane. I did not know just what the method was. Are we supposed to have set down reaUy what occurs here ? The Chairman. I think each Senator is the censor of his own re- marks. Senator Lane. In a general way it is presumed to be a record of the testimony ? The Chairman. Yes. Senator Lane. And in a general way it is presumed, I assume, that each Senator does his own correction ? The Chairman. Oh, certainly. Senator Lane. And any corrections by others are not warranted ? The Chairman. I think the rule is that each Senator Senator Lane. That was my understanding. I understood this was an official body, which was treating one another with a reason- able amount of respect and a reasonable amount of honor. I noticed in looking the records over that they have been edited. The Chairman. By whom ? Senator Lane. I am anxious to know. The Chairman. I am sure not by the clerk. Senator Lane. He assures me that he did not. The Chairman. In what respect have they been edited. Senator Lane. There were certain statements made here that have been stricken out by some one other than the person who made them. I made some remarks here the other day and I find them scored off, marked out. I have asked the clerk who else The Chairman. Let me see it, Senator. Senator Lane. I have asked the clerk where these records have been since they left the hands of the stenographer. He said they had been in the hands of my friend Meritt here and that they were returned in this condition. Mr. Meritt. I want to state that if anybody said that I changed any remarks of any Senator before this committee they misrepre- sented the facts. Senator Lane. There has not anybody said that yet. They went out of the possession of this body, the clerk informs me, mto your hands and into no one else's. The Chairman. I must assume the responsibility of that. Senator Lane. That is all right. I have no objection. I am just stating what is a matter of fact. 336 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. The Chairman. The practice, if I am correct, for more than 20 years has been that any head of a department appearmg betore a committee has the right to take that record and look it over. Senator Lane. I have no objection to that. The Chairman. I asked the honorable commissioner it he would take that record and look it over and then have the clerk give it to every other Senator; then it would be ready for printing, op 1 want to assume any responsibility. ^ . ^i, . t i. Senator Page. I want to give you a different view ol that. 1 nave been on the committee for a great many years, and, so far as I know, I never saw a record in my life, and I do not know that any other Senator ever saw or corrected or questioned a record made here befora this committee. Senator Townsend. I do not care anything about Senators making changes if they make their own changes, but I would object to the witness changing his remarks so as to mean something or say some- thing different from what he said before the committee. What was said before the committee by the witness was for the purpose of en- lightening the committee, and it is supposed that the committee acted upon what he said. Now, if he has changed that, then I object to it, unless he called the attention of the committee to it at the very next meeting, so we could see what he wanted. Mr. Meritt. Will you point out the changes that have been made? Senator Lane. Yes; whenever I get an opportunity. Mr. Meritt. I shall be glad to have you do it. Senator Lane. I have no objection to the Interior Department or the Commissioner of Indian Affairs or any of his office force taking it and looking it over, and it is perfectly right he should do so and correct their statements, because a person in talking will not at all times use the exact terms in which he wishes to express himself; there are very few people who have that facility of expression. When I got hold of this record, I found some kindly gentleman had changed one of the remarks which I had made and marked some others off the map. The remarks were probably a little harsh; they were not friendly, in fact, they might have been considered as rather a reflection upon the conduct of the affairs of this department, but there have been a great many complaints made against it, and there are some, things about the management of these affairs that do not appeal to me as being businesslike, and some of them, I think, border — I do not claim there is any wrong done here by the department itself — but some of them border on a worse condition of affairs than that. To show you how unfortunate conditions are, as an illustration I will say I have a letter which I received to-day, emanating from an Indian. An Indian wrote it to a white man, in which he asks him for a permit to eat the dead cattle on his range; that they are in a condi- tion of starvation, and he says he is willing to purchase and pay for such dead cattle. There has been a good deal of hardship among the Indians, due to the way their business affairs are managed, and they are managed, as I have said several times heretofore, in a way that u it continues will bankrupt every Indian in the country. His money is being spent in a manner that is of little benefit to him, as attention was caUed to here the other day on the irrigation schemes. Hundreds of thousands of dollars of his money have been expended, but no money with which to farm the land; nobody can use the land without the INDIAN APPBOPEIATION BILL. ■ 337 tools and implemeJits; yet that has been the constant practice in the conduct of these irrigation schemes upon the lands of the Indians in which millions of dollars have been expended. In referring to that, and some other matters, I said that that was bad business; that it was unjustly serving the Indian, and bad trus- teeship on our part. It comes back here to us, and there were some other criticisms to that effect, and I find them cut out. I also said I wanted, if I could do so, to see a law passed or a measure of some sort which would stop the aUenation of Indians' lands, either that or some other process, and that is carefully edited out, scratched out, and I do not like it. The Chairman. I want to say for the purposes of this record, and you know. Senator Lane, that I am devoted to you — that any reflec- tion on the commissioner or on Mr. Meritt is unjust for this reason. He has a great function and a great trust to administer. I beheve that Mr. Meritt and Mr. Sells have done their duty as they see it. I know that in my State Mr. Meritt saved the Indians a property worth milHons of dollars. A great contest arose where the Southern Pacific was trying to get possession of the Box Canyon, and they came pretty nearly getting it. It was a strategic point, and, if they had succeeded in getting it, it would have stopped forever the irrigating in the Pima lands and the San Carlos project. Mr. Meritt was the law clerk in the department, and through his efforts — he had very little suppoipt — unaided and by his own efforts he saved to those Indians and saved to that State the Box Canyon, and the raihoad company did not get it. I can not commend him too highly for his worK on that and other matters that I know of. Senator Lane. I have not said that the assistant commissioner did this. I said that the clerk tells me that the only men in whose pos- session it has been has been that department and myself. When you had it in your charge was it corrected by yourself or by your clerks ? Mr. Meritt. I read my own testimony. I did not even read your testimony in any case. Senator Mybrs. What has been stricken out. Senator Lane ? Senator Lane. There was stricken out a couple of items there. I thought I would call attention to it. I do not say that the depart- ment is responsible. I do not know who is, and I would like to know, because I do not think that is right. What I say here I am respon- sible for, and nobody has a right to doctor my testimony. That term, I beUeve, is agamst the rules downstairs, but the prac- tice seems not uncommon around this institution. It was done last year also in a way that eliminated certain statements. I detected that. Senator Page. Is it not possible that we have in our discussions here been so irregular, and in jumping around from one subject to the other and interrupting each other, that the stenographer has found it impossible to keep track of the discussion ? Senator Lane. No; the stenographer had it down all right. It was marked off with a lead pencil. You gentlemen apparently, do not understand what I am talking about. The Chairman. It will be restored upon your request. Senator. Senator Lane. Thanks. They will be restored, my dear boy. .The Chairman. It is a matter of right which yon have. 39746— PT 1—14 22 338 ' INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Lane. Thank you. You are very generous. The Chairman. It is not a question of generosity; it is a matter of right. Senator Lane. That is mighty nice of you. There is that, you see [indicating] scratched off there. The Chairman. Let me see it, Senator. Senator Lane. That was something we were talking about, the number of cattle of the full-blooded Choctaws. I objected to selling his land and giving him the money, or putting it where he would lose it. I think the land should be kept inalienable because they will lose their money. It might be better in the long run, but I do not laiow. Now, that is crossed off entirely, and marked off here for the . printer. v The Chairman. I know nothing in the world about it. Mr. Meritt. This hearing was gone over by Mr. H, C. Peairs and Mr. C. L. Davis. If those gentlemen Senator Lane. I did not say it was you. Mr. Meritt. If they marked that out they are due you an apology. Senator Lane. Who is Peairs and who is Davis ? Mr. Meritt. They are employees in the Indian Service. Their initials are on this paper. If they marked that out they owe you an apology, and if you will permit me I will have them come here and •^ make the statement before this committee. And I am ready now to take an oath that I have not changed one word of your testimony, and I would not do so under any circumstances. Senator Lane. I am willing to believe you without an oath, and I am awfuUy glad you did not do it, because I like the way you are conducting your work here. We are in sympathetic touch with each other iQ many ways. There is another place in here where they scratched out more, which made me just a little bit sore. Here I said about those Indians : You ought to be buying them fishhooks and nets. This is all humbuggery. It is enough to make a person tired, buying a lot of stump land that a farmer could not form if he wanted to, when they are fishermen, etc. They scratched that last part of it out. Some gentleman has done that. It did need correcting in its grammar, perhaps, but they should not erase it, you know. The Chairman. It seems to me that whoever did that, did a rep- rehensible thing. Mr. Meritt. In order to clear this matter up Senator Lane. Mr. Bentley's evidence is corrected. Did you cor- rect it yourself ? Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Then it has been in your hands? Mr. Bentley. That part of it only. Senator Lane. It might have been Bentley, for all I know. Mr. Bentley. No, sir. The Chairman. Hereafter this record must be corrected in the room here, except that the honorable commissioner may take it to make corrections by himself personally. Senator Townsend. I think where the commissioner or any wit-, ness testifies here he should have the right to correct his testimony. I would not want my testimony, if I were going to put any in, I would ■'■■ ■':^Wv:" ' INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. '! S39 not want anybody to criticise it or cut it out but myself, but after a witness testifies here he has no business to change the record, except the construction of it — the grammar of it. He has no right to change it so that it will mean a different thing than he says. Senator Myers. I think the rule is that the witness has the right to make such corrections as will make the record speak the facts and express what he actually stated. The stenographer is like everybody else, sometimes he makes mistakes, and the witness has a right to make the record fit the facts, but he has not the right to change his testimony. Senator Lane. Would he have that right before the court? Senator Myers. The court can not consent to the witness changing something said in the court Senator Lane. He can correct his language to express his meaning plainly. Senator Townsend. The only way he can do that is to come before the proper officer with the statement that he wants to make the change. Senator Myers. He is testifying again, then; not changing the record of his former testimony.^ Are the omissions material, Senator Lane? Senator Lane. No ; perhaps not. I saw one of the chairman's statements cut out here, one of his marked off to be ehminated. I do not know that it has any importance at all, but it seems to be an -editing process. Mr. Meritt. In order to correct this matter, I shall be glad to telephone Mr. Pears and Mr. Davis to come to this committee imme- diately. It is a matter of honor with me. So far as I am concerned I will give my oath before this committee that not one Une or a comma of any Senator's testimony was changed by me. In fact, I did not have time to read the statements of Senators. I only had time to glance over very hurriedly what I said myself. The Chairman. You need feel no concern of that kind, but you might bring those gentlemen here who made those emendations. Senator Townsend. Could they not come to-morrow just as well ? The Chairman. Just as well. In the meanwhile, Mr. Meritt, you must not feel perturbed in any way, but Senator Lane is within his rights to call attention to it. Mr. Meritt. I am very glad Senator Lane has called the atten- tion of this committee to it. When I read that record I saw his testimony had been changed and I thought the Senator had changed his own testimony. Senator Lane. Was it that way when you got it ? Mr. Meritt. It was that way when I got it. I was under the impression you had read over your own testimony and made cor- rections. If any employee of the Indian Office has changed so much as a comma in your testimony, they have done so without the authority of the office and they have certainly made a serious mistake, and I want those gentlemen to come before this committee and make a statement in regard to this matter. ^Senator Page. What possible object could they have m making it? Senator Lane. These were criticisms of the department, such as this: ''This is all humbuggery. It is enough to make a person tired bu3dng a lot of stump land that a farmer could not farm if he 340 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. wanted to, when they are fishermen." The reply was: ''They are not farmers; they make their Uving in fishing and huntmg. J-iaen I said: ''Then you ought to buy them fishhooks." Mr. Meritt. So far as criticism of the department is concerned we want criticism, and I will make a statement here now that the Indian Office can not be too severely criticized for conditions that now exist in many reservations, and I think my testimony and statenients before this committee will show I have not attempted to conceal the condition on a single reservation, but I am only too glad to bring to the attention of this committee these horrible conditions that now exist in these reservations in order that they may be remedied. Senator Lane. Before that goes to the hands of the printer I want those statements back in where they belong, then I want to correct a word or too in those two paragraphs. Senator Townsend. I understand any Senator has the right to correct any statement of his own at any time. The Chairman. Undoubtedly. Since the Chair seenis to be charged with some responsibihty in this matter, the Chair will say that the record will be here at all times, and anyone wishing the record must leave a receipt for it, because otherwise the clerk could not protect himself; those, except the commissioner and his assistant and the Senators, will not take it out of this room. Senator Myers. The clerk can take a receipt if he wants it. He ought to have a memorandum. The Clerk. I have a memorandum in that I delivered it to Mr. Meritt every day. Senator Lane. And in another case a word was changed making it read just the opposite. To that I have not called attention. Mr. Meritt. Can we not have the opportunity the first thing to- morrow at 2 o'clock to bring this matter up so that these gentlemen may make their statements for the record ? The Chairman. Yes; certainly. Mr. Meritt. So it may follow this statement that is now being taken ? The Chairman. Yes; that will be all right. If there is nothing further the committee will stand adjourned. Senator Lane. There is a matter which interests Mr. Meritt and the Indian Bureau, and I am in a way responsible for it. The other day, in correcting up the records made here, I found that some ingenious gentleman had altered my remarks. They did not appeal to him, apparently, and he cut some of them out; in two instances he abolished them — he wiped them off the map. In another instance cut out a word and put in another word which meant something else; which makes it quite a different remark from what I intended it to be. In checking the matter I asked the clerk who had had possession of these records before they were handed to me, and he told me that no one had possession of this except the Indian Bureau and myseH. I knew that I had not changed it, and naturally the suspicion of having made the change would attach to Mr. Meritt or some member of his force. On loolmig over the document afterwards I found in the margin some initialing which had been made by some one in your office. They had been in the hands of the Indian Bureau? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. 341 Senator Lane. Mr. Meritt, I noticed, had corrected his testimony, which of course is frequently quite necessary, as a person uses bad grammar and a statement may not be as clear as one wishes it, and it may need editing, and it is perfectly right it should be, but each ^ man ought to be allowed to edit his own statements. Later Mi\ Meritt said he had made no change in them, and I am quite ready to believe that, and the other gentlemen from the Indian Bureau said that they had made no changes in it, and Mr. Meritt assured me that their statement is true. That afternoon I called the attention of the chairman to the similarity in the marking. One of his statements had been crossed out, then a mark made on the margin for the information of the printer, notifying him that it is not to be published. He said that while he had not made that marldng, that he had ordered it done on the carbon copy. I got hold of the carbon copy afterwards and find the markings entirely different. The next day came in Mr. Gait, the stenographer here, and in showing him this emendation of the worthy chairman's, he stated that he made the mark on the margin but not the crossing; so that whoever made it made mine, for it is apparently the same hand, or a very close imitation of the one which emended that of the chairman. ; ' What I am after now is to find out if I can — I have not much hope that I will — who the gentleman was that did me the honor to do that, and my main purpose is to put a stop to it in the future. I think that is right; it should be stopped. Is that not your opinion, Sen- ators ? This is not quite fair. Senator Thompson. As a matter of fact, was it not the stenog- rapher who made the correction ? Senator Lane. He says not; says he did not make it in my case. He says in the case of the chairman. Now, unfortunately, the chairman went over it with a big, fat, blue pencil and marked it up so it was very The Chairman. You must say in the record that what I marked in the blue pencil was my own. Senator Lane. You said it was. The Chairman. Well, it was mine. Senator Lane. Of course it was your own, but you marked out all the identifying marks, or crossed them up so it is very hard to tell anything about it. I want to call attention, and I did call his atten- tion at the time to the similarity in the marking on that, the pencil • scoring and this here — it is a little hard to tell it now — but you see that marking there and this on here [indicating]. It struck me that the hand that did that was the hand that did this. Now, whether the stenographer did it — Mr. Gait is here, and I wish you would state whether you did that or not. Mr. Galt. Senator, I absolutely swear that I did not do it. Senator Lane. You made the other one? Mr. Galt. I made the other one conformably to Senator Ashurst's change on the carbon copy when it came back to me. You are talking about this ? Senator Lane. No; I am talking about that, and Mr. Galt. When the carbon copy came back to me with this matter stricken out by the chairman, I struck it out to conform. Senator Lane. You made these pencil marks in here? 342 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Galt. I would not be surprised if I did. Senator Lane. Would you be surprised if you made these of mine? Mr. Galt. I did not strike out any of yours, absolutely. Senator Lane. Did you make that mark [indicating] ? Mr. Galt. No, sir; I did not. I absolutely did not. I certainly would not strike anything out of a record, Senator, unless the party who spoke struck it out nrst on the carbon. Senator Thompson. It was intended to be out, anyway? The Chairman. Yes; because I struck that out myself. Senator Townsend. What is the criticism you have of yours, Senator Lane? Senator Lane. I have it right here. I did not have the carbon at all. The Chairman. Here it is. This is not marked out at all on the carbon. Senator Lane. But it is on the original. In another place there they changed a word; that was done deliberately; this might have been done accidentally. It was done in two or three cases. The first one I did not pay much attention to. I started to put it back and did not call attention to it. The Chairman. Whereabouts is it ? It is beyond this, is it not ? Senator Lane. I think so. Senator Thompson. This is the carbon ? Senator Lane. This is the original, which I call doped, marking the cards. You know you must not get caught at it. The Chairman. We do not allow marked cards at this table. Senator Lane. There it is; there you see there is substituted one word for another. The Chairman. I can tell you in whose handwriting that is, if you want me to. Senator Lane. Well, tell me. Senator Townsend. Which word was marked out, '^property"? The Chairman. Naturally the stenographer would. In short- hand writing the stenographer is frequently driven to the context of the sentence to see what it means. In shorthand writing '' prop- erty" and "poverty" are almost incapable of identification. Senator Lane. They are not outside of the records. The Chairman. I am talking about shorthand. Therefore I would conclude that the stenographer having written it, "You are buying poverty for them," it would look absurd, and he would naturally insert "buying property for them." Mr. Galt. May I say a word right there ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Galt. I have in my shorthand notes exactly what Senator Lane said: "We are buying poverty." I did not change that word. I left it in the record. It is distinct in my notes. Senator Lane was sitting right next to me and I heard him say "buying poverty," and I did not correct it, as I understood what he said as well as what he meant. The Chairman. If Senator Lane wants to pursue it, you can get conrparisons and find out who wrote that, if you wish to. Mr. Galt. It certainly is not in my writing. Senator Lane. I do not care to pi'oceed further. The Chairman. You have a right to do so if you wish. INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. 343 Senator Lane. Yes; I guess so. Mr. Galt. I can not write as well as that. It is not my hand- writing. Senator Lane. I brought this up to-day more to give Mr. Meritt a chance, so that the reflection should not rest on him any further than it ought to. Mr. Meritt. Senator, you are very kind, indeed. I told you three days ago that I had here at that time the three men who would take oath to the fact that these changes had been made in the record before the record was looked over by them. Now, those three men saw this record before it came to me. Personally, I am in the clear on this proposition by the affidavits of three men who saw this record before it reached me. We have two of those men in the city at this time. If there is any question that those men made those changes, I want them to come here and make oath to this fact. I thought you were perfectly satisfied from your previous statement that there was no longer any serious thought that the matter was done in the Indian Office, and if there is still any further doubt about it whatever, I will ask that the two men who are now in the city come here and make affidavit in regard to this matter, and I will procure the written affidavit of the gentleman who is now in the field and who had opportunity to read this hearing and who appeared before this committee. Senator Lane. I was willing to accept your statement at the time, I certainly have no suspicion that you did it, Mr. Meritt. Mr. Meritt. I thank you, Senator. Senator Lane. That is true; I will say that to you frankly. I would say just the opposite to you if I believed it. Mr. Meritt. I believe you would, Senator. Senator Lane. Oh, yes, I would not fool you on that. I do not want to suspect anybody. It has been done and I want to let it drop right there. Senator Thompson. As a matter of fact, was it not done this way ? Do not the stenographers attempt to amend the record in a way, or try to have the record read as correctly as they can on account of the notes they take ? I have been a stenographer myself, and have often corrected a great many things I tried to take, because I did not believe it was intended to be expressed in that way. Senator Lane. I do not believe tnis was corrected in the manner suggested. This was cut out. Senator Thompson. It is all done by sound. After it is written the stenographers edit it the best they 'can to conform to what they beheve was said. Senator Lane. What sounds good to them ? Senator Thompson. No, what they beheve was said, and their notes verify. Senator Lane. This fellow cut out a whole paragraph. Did you ever do that because it did not sound good to you, as a stenographer ? Senator Thompson. Sometimes I did it. Senator Lane. Then I do not want you to report me. We will keep you off. Senator Thompson. I am very thankful to have the stenographers correct my language. 844 INDIAN" APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Lane. What I said in there was this, and you can see how they have changed the sense of it, this "purchase of poverty. I had been talking about the buying of logged-off lands for Indians to put them on to farm without giving them any money to support them while they were grubbing out the stumps in order to make a living off of it. Senator Thompson. What was the word you used, '"poverty" or ''property" ? Senator Lane. I said "poverty." I said "that will do no good, that you should double the appropriation giving them money sufficient to cultivate the land, clear it up, otherwise you are buying poverty for them, and next year they will be in worse condition than now." ' The Chairman. How was changed to read ? Senator Lane. "Buying property for them." Senator Thompson. I imagine these things were read into the dictaphone. Mr. Galt. Let me disclaim that as before. They were read into the dictaphone, but I read the notes ''buying poverty," and they passed from my office into somebody else's hands with the words buying poverty." Senator Thompson. But some other stenographer finally made the revision ? Mr. Galt. No; I revised my own notes. Senator Lane. In this other I made this statement. I was mak- ing the same objection there to allowing the Indian to dispose of his land, or the department doing it in the manner it has been done in the past, and I made the statement that I objected to selling his land and giving him the money, or putting it where he will lose it; placing him in position where he would lose the money. I think the land should be kept inalienable because they will lose their lands — that is the way he has got it here; I think I said ''money." It may be better in the long run, but I do not know. Senator Townsend. WTio would be interested in striking that out? Senator Lane. Bless your heart, I do not know. Senator Townsend. You see we are in the dark. I was trying to figure it out. Senator Lane. I do not think it is worth while. I called atten- tion to these in the first place for the reason that last year I had this same experience. I did not say anything about it last year at all. I noticed last year they had transposed language making it read just the opposite to what I meant it to, and this time when I came along to the first item I tried to correct it back, put it in the proper place. When I saw it the second time and the third time I said to myself: "I will put a stop to it if I can." Mr. Galt. May I say a word? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Mr. Galt. As ydu gentlemen may know, it is always a benefit' to the stenographer to get all in the record he can, because the more he gets in it the greater compensation he gets. I have been doing the work on this committee for 20 years and over. I never knew this question to arise before. I never in my hfe altered any record, and the man does not live who has the temerity to say I did in any shape, except when the work comes off from a graphophone cylinder to INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 345 correct to conform to my notes, because the operator may miss here sometimes, and I correct it, as I say, to conform to my notes. Senator Thompson. That was the reason for these alterations? Mr. Galt. Yes, sir; but, Senator Thompson, that is not my hand- writing, that word there. I did not strike those lines out. I had no occasion to strike them out, because the more there is in the record the more money I get. I absolutely disclaim it. Senator Thompson. Of course you do add a word now and then to make it read more inteUigibly ? Mr. Galt. If there is a manifest error of diction on the part of the speaker. Senator Thompson. If a man says, '^It h'aint no good," you change it around to make it read good EngHsh ? < Mr. Galt. Yes; that is right. I think that is the province of a good reporter. Senator Lane. I am informed by the stenographer that in asking rstions and making statements here that I talk so rapidly that it is ost impossible for them to take notes from me, and they can not take clear notes for that reason. That is what one of the ste- nographers told me yesterday. That, of course, would confuse them, and, necessarily I have to go over my notes. I find that to be the case in the Senate also. Another thing, I do not talk lound enough. Mr. Galt. That is the main reason. It is not a matter of speed; it is because you drop your voice, but you have been sitting right close to me and I have been trying to take as accm*ately as I could what you said. I certainly did not strike anything out. Senator Lane. It is Hke Topsy, ''it just growed up itself." I will correct this up. The Chairman. Is there anything further the committee can do to assist you ? Senator Lane. Only that the committee ought to do this: It ought to insist that its records be kept inviolate, and the statement wmch anyone makes be placed in it, in fairness to him, with the mean- ing that he intends. Senator Thompson. It should be submitted to him for editing? Senator Lane. Yes; he ought to look over it. He ought not to be allowed to change it; he ought not to reverse himself, but he ought to be allowed to correct bad grammar and the hasty and improper use of English. Very few people express themselves clearly. It takes a practiced lawyer, a man who weighs his words. Very few other people express themselves clearly, except attorneys who get in the habit of weighing their words carefully. Others are Hkely to speak at random and repeat themselves. The Chairman. Attorneys do that very frequently. Senator Lane. I am subject to that fault. The Chairman. I want jou to know, since the Chair seems to be .charged, with some responsibility in the matter, that so far as I am concerned, and I am sure I speak for the secretary also, great care has been used, and greater care will be used about the records here. They will, of course, be available to every Senator and the commis- sioner and his assistants, but there will be no one else who will have access to the record, and before it is finally printed, I might say, Senators, that I wish you would all look it over. ■V-.1 3i6 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. Senator Lane. Submit the proof to them, and if they do not care to look at it turn it back. Senator Townsend. I never had time to look mine over. Senator Gronna. I want to say just one word. I am very careless about my grammar when I talk, and I want to say this, that I very often consider it a favor when the stenographers will correct my grammiar. Of course, I do not want them to strike out anythmg ^and give it a different meaning. Senator Lane. You mean to make it better or worse? Senator Gronna. Well, they generally make it better when they correct it. The Chairman. The man who corrected Senator Lane's did some- thing heretofore unknown. He raised poverty into property. Mr. Meritt. In view of the fact that the record, as it ended a few evenings ago, clearly had this change on the Indian Office, I shaU be glad if this record could follow that immediately, so that we could have a clear, consecutive record. The Chairman. You wish these proceedings to follow sequentially and in order ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Then these proceedings respecting the emendation of this record will follow the discussion had tne other day ? Senator Lane. Now then, gentlemen, I am going to put ''poverty^' back in there, and also the uncomplimentary remarks. The Chairman. Certainly, Senator, you are right in sticking to it. (Thereupon, at 4.30 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until 2 o'clock p. m. Tuesday, March 31, 1914.) TUESDAY, MARCH 31, 1914, The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Ashurst (chairman), Lane, Thompson, La Fol- lette, Page, Gronna, Towsend, and FaU. BOARD OF INDIAN COMMISSIONERS. The Chairman. Senators, we have with us to-day the chairman, or rather Dr. EUot, who I think is acting chairman, of the Board of Indian Commissioners. Here is a typewritten summary or epitome of proposed legislation, which the Board of Indian Commissioners suggests be incorporated in this bill, and I wish, further, at this time to call your attention to the fact that the Board of Indian Commis- sioners has submitted printed reports of certain investigations made by that commission, to wit, investigation of conditions of the Mesca- lero Indians, of the Fort Sill Indians, of the Pueblo Indians, of New Mexico; of the Papago Indians; and of the Navajo Indians; and I have one copy. I presume other printed copies of these reports of investigations are available. Now, Senators, what is your pleasure ? Senator Page. I would like to hear Dr. Eliot, or any other mem- ber of the commission, give us in detail the reasons for this legislation that they suggest. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 347 STATEMENT OF DR. SAMUEL A. ELIOT. The Chairman. Dr. Eliot, the Senatol-s express a desire to hear from you. Dr. EnoT, Mr. Chairman, in the absence of the chairman of the Board of Indian Commissioners, who will come in later, I want to express our appreciation for the courtesy of this hearing. The B6ard of Indian Commissioners has given careful study to the Indian bill as it came from the House, and in this memorandum there is recorded the collective opinion of the Board in regard to possible amendments. If I niay be permitted to take these up in order— the first recom- mendation is in regard to conditions among the Papagos, as set forth in a little printed report which I think the members of this committee have. The Chairman. Have you, Senator Lane, a copy of the printed report ? Senator Lane. No, sir. I think this may be PAPAGO RESERVATION. Dr. Eliot. The most important item in that report concerns the extension of the trust period under which the Indians on the Papago Reservation hold their present allotments. That, in the judgment of our board, can be done by executive order, and it need not be in- corporated in the present bill, as the trust patents still run another year. hospitals at SAN XAVIER. The next recommendation is for the establishment of field hos- pitals at San Xavier, and it is suggested in this amendment that probably this item can be taken care of in the general appropriation. WiU the chairman kindly ask the assistant commissioner if such pro- vision can be made in the general account ? The Chairman. Honorable Commissioner, you will make reply to any questions that Dr. Ehot sees fit to propound. Mr. Meritt. I will be glad to answer any questions. The Chairman. You may ask the questions directly, Dr. Eliot. Dr. Eliot. It is recommended that field hospitals be established at San Xavier — Indian hospitals. Can those be incorporated in the general appropriation, or should there be a special item in the bill ? Mr. Meritt. The general appropriation would be available for that purpose. MESCALERO INDIANS. Dr. Eliot. Progressing, then, to the situation on the Mescalero Reservation, providing for the immediate survey of the Mescalero Reservation, can this be done by action of the Indian Office, rather than by Congress ? It is recommended, for instance, that immediate survey be made of the Mescalero Reservation, that a hospital be es- tablished there, and that an enlargement of the dormitories for the Fort Sill Indians be provided. Again, Mr. Meritt, can this be taken care of in the general appropriation ? Mr. Meritt. I might say that we have already made arrangements to have the Mescalero Reservation surveyed. That is now pending 348 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. in the Land Office. We have a temporary hospital at the Mescalero Reservation. We have no funds available to supply hospital facilities for all the Indian reservations in the United States. We have, how- ever, submitted a very carefully prepared estimate this year for an increased appropriation in order to take care of the terrible conditions existing on the reservation so far as the health of the Indians is con- cerned. . . Dr. Eliot. The other recommendation is for an appropriation lor the purchase of cattle. I understand that it has already been adopted by this committee. Mr. Meritt. We estimated $200,000 in our biU this year for that work. NAVAJO INDIANS. Report on Conditions Among the Navajo Indians, by Samuel A. Eliot and WiLLLAM H. KeTCHAM, MeMBERS OF THE BOARD OF INDIAN COMMISSIONERS. Department of the Interior, Board of Indian Commissioners, Bureau of Mines Building, Washington, D. C, February 2, 1914. Hon. George Vaux, Jr., Chairman Board of Indian Commissioners. Dear Sir: In accordance with the instructions of the board, we have just completed a visit to the Navajo Reservation. We have had opportunity to inspect the schools at Fort Defiance and Leupp, the hospital at Fort Defiance, and the mission schools at St. Michaels and at Tolchaco. We nave conferred with the director of the school at Chin Lee, and the doctor in charge of the hospital at Tohatchi. We have also had conference mth traders and mission- aries from all parts of the reservation and with representative cattlemen at Flagstaff, Winslow, and Gallup. We have had two interviews with Mr. Howel Jones, superin- tendent of the land department of the Santa Fe Railroad. We have also talked at Gallup with Mr. Charles Day, the owner of Day's Springs. Father Anselm Wever, of St. Michaels, who has worked among the Navajoes for 20 years, has been our traveling companion. 1. Neiv agency. — The Navajo Reservation is too large for efficient administration. The superintendents are obliged to cover too extensive a territory. In our judgment the northern portion of the reservation along the Utah boundary should be set aside as a new jurisdiction, with an agency to be located at Kayenta, where a school is now being built. This new agency has already been recommended by Col. Hunter and Prof. Gregory, and the agents on the reservation all indorse the recommendation. Kayenta is 70 miles from Tuba, the nearest agency, and more than 100 miles from either Fort Defiance or Shiprock. 2. Schools and hospitals. — ^The school and hospital at Fort Defiance are in good con- dition and excellently administered. There is, however, urgent need of a new boys' dormitory, and we earnestly recommend an appropriation of $25,000 for that purpose, to be made available until expended. The plans of the superintendent for tne plac- ing of this needed dormitory and the readjustment of the buildings are well made. The present building used for a boys' dormitory is unsafe, insanitary, shabby, and unsuitable. It should be torn down. There is also need at Fort Defiance of new equipment for industrial training. Supt. Paquette has been remai'kably successful in securing, through the open market, economical, convenient, and attractive build- ings. We heartily indorse his plans and recommendations. We recommend, further, appropriations for the establishment of schools at Wide Ruins and at Naazlin, which appear to be well selected centers for such establishments', and an appropriation for a hospital at Chin Lee. 3. Allotment. — We are thoroughly convinced that the time has not yet come for the allotment of the Indians on the reservation. The Navajo is proceeding along the way of civilization as fast as he can safely travel. He is independent and self- supporting. He is steadily improving his dwelling, his stock, and his method of farming. He is learning English, sending his children to school, and increasingly following the advice of the white physicians. He is developing his own water re- sources, forming good industrial habits, and gradually adopting white standards of INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 349 1 domestic life. Following their own customs, the Indians divide their common re- sources with remarkable fairness and live peaceably with one another and with the whites. They must be permitted slowly to come into an understanding of our cus- tom of private land ownership and inheritance. There is nothing to be gained by hurrying that process. Allotment on the reservation should not be thought of for a good many years to come. There is constant pressm-e in Arizona, and upon the Arizona delegation in Congress, for the reduction of the present size of the Navajo Reservation in order that there may be more territory for the use of the white men's cattle and for ulti- mate settlement. It is pointed out that the reservation covers an undue proportion of the State and that it has been extended by successive Executive orders without due regard to the interests of the stockmen who have used and need the range for their stock. It is further pointed out that in making these extensions the natural boundaries have been disre§:arded and arbitrary and artificial lines drawn. TOile we believe that the reservation is none too large for the use of the Indians, who now number over 30,000, we think it desirable that the causes of friction and controversy between the Indians and the whites should be eliminated as far as possible. A sug- gested compromise has found favor with the representative cattlemen with whom we conferred in Arizona and with the Arizona delegation in Congress. We suggest and advocate that, after due provision has been made for the retention of adequate tracts of land for the school at Leupp and the mission at Tolchaco, and after all the Indians living in what is known as the Leupp extension on the southern side of the Little Colorado River have been given ample allotments with water rights on the river, then that portion of the Leupp extension lying south of the river be returned to the public domain and opened for settlement. The Little Colorado will then be the natural and \'isible boundary between the Indian country and the white man's country. We venture to believe that this action will remove the causes of ill will and satisfy the white citizens of Arizona without any undue sacrifice of the interests of the Indians. 4. Railroad lands. — The Santa Fe Railroad Co. owns nearly a million acres of land in alternate sections for a distance of 40 miles north of the railroad. The Frisco Road also owns a long strip of alternate sections. This railroad land makes a checkerboard of a large portion of the southern part of the reservation, and, owing to lack of proper bounds or fences and the scarcity of water, there is constant friction between the Indians and the white cattlemen who lease railroad land and naturally allow their stock to drift all over the range. A proportion of the railroad land, perhaps 70 per cent of it, has already been exchanged for lieu lands on the public domain. This exchange should be promptly completed so that the reservation can be solidified and the causes of controversy removed. The quickest way to accomplish this result, and the way which most commends itself to our judgment, is for Congress to make a reimbursable appropriation, secured upon the timber or mineral resources on the reservation, and buy outright all the railroad land which is within the natural borders of the reservation. This would be prompt, just, and economical and would put no unreasonable financial burden upon the Indians. 5. Allotment on the public domain. — There appear to be more than a thousand un- allotted Indians living on the public domain. They have never lived anywhere else. There is obviously no room for them on the reservation even if they were willing to remove thither. There is no question in our minds but that, as soon as proper water rights and resources can be developed, they should be encouraged to take up allot- ments where they are now living. This should be done just as promptly as possible. 6. Water rights. — Good progress is being made in the discovery and development of the water resources on me reservation. For the nonreservation Indians, we under- stand that provision has been made in a former Indian bill (act of Mar. 3, 1909) for the purchase of certain water rights in the "Butte Country," so called. These include h) the Day Springs; (2) the well of the Gallup Independent Oil Co., 8 miles west of Crown Point; (3) the improvements made by Messrs. Murphy, Griff, and Hart in T. 22 N., R. 23 E. Mr. Day has not yet been able to give a clear title to his springs, but it is expected that the suit, which will settle the title, will be completed in Febru- ary. The purchase of all these water rights should then at once be consummated. New surveys should then be made and the Indians living in the district known as the "Butte Country" allotted in proper relation to water supplies, which should be held in common or by the Government. We understand that the allotments heretofore made by Allotting Agent Keepers have no connection with the water sources and have therefore never been approved. They should be 'disregarded and new surveys and allotments ordered. . i. t.t • n 7. We are impressed with the exceptional opportunity on the Navajo Reservation for the work of field matrons and recommend that an additional force be provided for. 350 INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. The field matrons should work in close cooperation with superintendents, teachers, and physicians. In general we believe that the condition of the Navajo is promising. The people are virile, industrious, and independent. With the exercise of ordinary good judg- ment, patience, and tact, there need never be any serious problem in connection with their development. < Respectfully submitted. Samuel A. Eliot, William H . Ketch am , Committee. Dr. Eliot. In the report upon tlie Navajo Indians there is a recom- mendation for a new boys' dx)rmitory at Fort Defiance. Again, Mr. Meritt, can that be taken care of under the general appropriation ? Mr. Meritt. We have an appropriation which would be available for that purpose. Dr. Eliot. The attention of the committee is desired to the further recommendation of the appropriation — the reimbursable appropria- ^ tion — for the purchase of railroad lands, and for the possible read- justment of the boundaries of the so-called Leupp extension on the Navajo Reservation. These are matters, Mr. Chairman, with which you are very well acquainted, and you can deal with those matters very much better than the members of the Board of Indian Commis- sioners. The Chairman. Would it interrupt you if I asked you a question there ? Dr. Eliot. Certainly not. The Chairman. It would occur to me, at least, that an allotment of the land of the Navajo Reservation is far in the future, for reasons that I need not go into now. In view of the fact that the allotments to the various proposed allottees is so far in the future, it seems to me that a reimbursable appropriation would be rather academic than practical for this reason: It will be a long, long time in my judgment before the reimbursable moneys will be repaid, so while I do not object to reimbursable appropriations, for all practical purposes they are merely academic and I would rather see them, if such could be, gratuity appropriations. But I am not wedded to any particular idea on the subject. I just submit that on the question of reimburs- able appropriations for the Navajo Reservation. Dr. Eliot. Your own [judgment, sir, should go far to persuade the judgment of the board in that matter. It is very desirable, we aU agree, that the Navajo Reservation should be concentrated and the alternate sections of railroad land should be eliminated. Whether it be reimbursable appropriation or gratuity appropriation is another matter. The Chairman. The question of the extension of the reservation by the inclusion therein of private land is a much mooted question. I have some very defmite views on the subject, but in your time I shall not say anything about that question. But I do say that I am very pelased indeed to see from your report, and that of Father William H. Ketcham, that you seem to take the idea that as to the Leupp reservation, those Indians now living there might be allotted and the remainder of the Leupp reservation lying south of the Colo- rado River be restored to the public domain to the end that the Little Colorado River shall be, as it anciently was, a dividing line. I am very glad to see that in the report you have this idea. Ithink it is proper that the river be the dividing line. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 351 Dr. Eliot. It is the judgment of the commission, Mr. Chairman, that a river, a natural boundary, is a much more accurate boundary than an invisible line* The Chairman. I trust the honorable commissioner will bear that in mind. Mr. Meritt. We have the matter in mind, Mr. Chairman, and are giving it very careful consideration. PUEBLO INDIANS. • , Dr. Eliot. Going to the report upon the condition of the Pueblo Indians, the Board of Indian Commissioners notice with gratification that appropriations have already been adopted, or an amendment adopted by this committee, recommending additional lands at Albuquerque, and for the buHdinff of a dau-y barn at Santa Fe. Those, I understand, have already oeen put in the bill. May I ask, Mr. Meritt, if the general appropriation can take care of the surveys of the Pueblo land ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; the Comptroller has so held, and we have asked that that work be done. compensation of attorney for pueblo INDIANS. Dr. Eliot. It remains only to say that the board recommends an increase in the appropriation for use of the attorney for the Pueblos. The House has adopted the sum of last year, and this committee, I understand, has not seen fit to change that sum. In the report of the committee of the Board of Indian Commissioners it is recommended that the attorney for the Pueblo Indians receive a larger compensa- tion, and a larger appropriation for the cost of suits. The justification in the House hearings, mdicates from the quality and character of his work that he have a larger sum of money to bring his suits to court. We therefore recommend that the sum of money appropriated for the use of the attorney of the Pueblos be doubled, and be made $4,000 instead of $2,000. The Chairman. May I interrupt you ? We had that item, did we not. Senator Page, under consideration yesterday ? Senator Page. I think we did. The Chairman. I think it was approved at $2,000. Senator Page. Dr. Eliot wants it increased to $4,000. The Chairman. It is your idea, after investigation, that that should be double the amount $4,000 ? ' Dr. Eliot. Yes, sir. The Chairman. That is item No. 92 on page 33 of the comparison. Let us turn to that right now. i. Senator Page. It was approved at $2,000, I think. The Chairman. It has been approved at $2,000. Now, Mr. Com- ^missioner, what have you to say now, or would you prefer to give these matters consideration later- bringing them up later? Mr. Mertit. I might say that we estimated, I believe, for $2,000, the same sum as was appropriated last year, and the House allowed us our estimate. I would prefer deferring until next year asking for an increased appropriation for this work, for special reasons which are known to the inspecting force of our service. 352 INDJAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Dr. Eliot. We shall be glad if it can be entered on the record that your Board of Indian Commissioners wish particularly to commend the alert and disinterested service of the attorney for the Pueblos and believe that he should have larger recompense and a larger appropriation. MENOMINEE INDIANS. Dr. Eliot. The next item upon this memorandum concerns the conditions of the Menominee Reservation. The Chairman. What page is that, Dr. Eliot? Dr. Eliot. This is a new piece of legislation altogether. It con- cerns itself, this memorandum on the third page, with a suggested < amendment to section 3 of the act of March 28, 1908. The justifica- tion for this suggested amendment is set forth in this memorandum, and perhaps you will excuse me for reading it. It is also contained at length in the report of Commissioner Ay er, which has already been submitted to the Indian Office, and it, in brief, would eliminate the clause which provides for the sale of timber on that reservation to the highest and best bidder for cash after due advertisement inviting proposals and bids. Commissioner Ayer has pointed out that a much better bargain can be made for the Indians if that clause is eliminated and the timber sold in the open market. That would be an insert in the bill on page 41. Senator Page. That is your tribe, Senator La FoUette? Senator La Follette. Yes, sir. Dr. Eliot, what reason do you assign for believing that better return can be made to the Indians if the product of their mill is not sold to the highest and best bidder? Dr. Eliot. I recall only the report of Commissioner Ayer, which was rendered last February, he being an expert lumberman and dis- covered, or thought he discovered, that such return could be secured through certain sources which he pointed out in his report. I have no doubt that you, Senator, know a great deal more about it than I do. Senator La Follette. I did not know but you had in mind reasons which induced your commission to make this recommendar tion. I do not want it assumed from my question that I take issue with the recommendation. I am just searcTiing for the reasons that lie back of the recommendation. Dr. Eliot. That is a matter outside of my own province. Senator La Follette. The question arose ia my mind, Doctor, as to whether the investigation disclosed that there had been col- lusive bidding for the product of those men, that is, whether they do not get full value of the product because those who bid did not perhaps bid freely against each other. I have no information on the subject myself. Senator Lane. But Mr. Ayer's claim was that in selling it in this way they only received bids from lumber dealers; whereas, if you sold it the other way, you would sell it in small quantities to people who needed it at retail prices. This other way you only received wholesale prices, and from a very few bidders. Senator La Follette. Doctor, do you know whether this recom- mendation contemplates that they shall have a selling agent to sell to — sell their product ? Dr. Eliot. 1 recaU Commissioner Ayer's recommendation was that a market could be found among small dealers in Wisconsin and Min- INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 353 nesota which would be much more profitable than selling through wholesale companies. Whether that involved a seUing agent or not I can not recall. Are there any other questions, Mr. Chairman, on that subject ? The Chairman. Not that I have, unless some other Senator has some questions. Senator La Follette. I simply wish to say that if there is any way in which the Indians can receive a higher price for the product of their mill there, I hope the law will be so changed that they can be given that opportunity. Senator Page. I would hke to ask you, Senator La Follette, what safeguards do you think should be thrown around the dealings where some agents sell to different parties and leave the matter so that there is possiJDly a collusion between them ? In the case of selling to the highest bidder we know that there is no opportunity of that kind. I do not know that there would be in giving some Indian agent the right to sell, but I know that we frequently strike the statement that there is a looseness about those sales, or in this line of business where there is no advertising, that leads to graft. Have you any experience with regard to that that you can give us. Senator? Senator La Follette. I have not personally; no, sir. I am very certain that when the products of their logging operations some years ago on that reservation was sold to millmen under the same pro- vision that there is here in the law now, to sell to the highest bidder, the bidding was at that time under suspicion of being with an under- standing among those who were buying the logs that they would not bid .them up so nigh, and it was in my mind, and it was my hope, that when the product was worked up in the lumber, that it could have a much larger market because it would have the whole world for a market, while the logs had only the millmen for their market, and I believe that that would bring the Indians a higher price for their product. Senator Page. Is the Menominee mill a mill owned by the Indians ? Senator La Follette. Yes, sir. That is the place we visited — Neopit. Senator Page. Is it one of the best miQs there ? There was one very large miU. Senator La Follette. Yes; it is a very large miU. Senator Townsend. Built exclusively for the Indians. Senator Page. Was there not some complaint made by the Indians at that mill that good generalship was not beiag used in the running of that mill ? Senator La Follette. Oh, yes; I think that is true, and the gentle- man who was in charge of the mill at that time was displaced, and another man was appointed. Senator Lane. Mr. Ayer stated, if I remember correctly, that the Indians lost probably a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year — something like that — in the sale of their lumber through not getting the market price for it; they were at a disadvantage with their com- petitors for the reason that they did not market it properly. They must ask for and receive a tender for the lumber. The man who wants to build a house can not buy lumber that waj^. He goes to a lumber yard and selects this kind of lumber or that kind, whereas ^the Indian has to lump his product off and only sells to the wholesaler. .q()74fi_PT 1—14 ^23 354 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Dr. Eliot. I notice in this report that he states that it will increase the profits of the Indians by $60,000 a year. Senator Lane. I will correct that. He said it would make a lot of difference, anyway. That was the reason why. Dr. Eliot. It is a very complete and exhaustive report of a real expert. Senator Townsend. May I ask ;y^ou a question, Dr. Eliot ? The conclusion of the commission which investigated this is that that mill is a good investment, measured by the benefit to the Indians, and possibly may need some improvement in the way of management, but that the project itseH, as I understand it, is approved by the com- mission; is that correct ? * Dr. Eliot. Yes, sir; the report was exceedingly commendatory of the business management of the mill under the present government. This is only suggesting a shght improvement — a still further improve- ment upon the method of administration. Senator Lane. I understood Mr. Ayer to say that the mill was badly located, and the manner of marketing the goods was not what it should be, and that a private business concern would not carry on business in that way. Senator La Follette. I think you must have some other mill in jnind. Senator Lane. No; he was talking about this one. Dr. Eliot. He commended the mul on the spot. He did point out that there were some legislative difficulties, such as advertising for bids. Senator Lane. He did point out about the location, that it was badly selected. Dr. Eliot. He did recommend encouragement of more raihoad facilities by the Government because transportation was inadequate. inspection of oil and gas wells. Dr. Eliot. The next recommendation of the board is in regard to the inspection of oil and gas wells, particularly in the State of Okla- homa, and the board recommends that a provision b? put into the bill Senator La Follette. I beg your pardon. Did you call the atten- tion of the committee to a recommendation which I find in the mem- orandum here Dr. Eliot. In regard to the Menominees 1 Senator La Follette. Yes, sir; which relates to another recom- mendation regarding a provision of $500,000. Dr. Eliot. I did not. That is the second clause of page 3 of the memorandum, also included in the report of Commissioner Ayer, as follows : From the funds in the Treasury of the United States to the credit of the Menominee Indians, $500,000 shall be allotted and apportioned to the members of the said tribe Entitled to the same and placed to the credit of such individuals upon the books of the Treasury and used for their benefit or the benefit of their legatees or heirs under rules and regulations to be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior. That is again, Mr. Chairman, a matter which Senator La Follette is more familiar than I. INDIAN API'ROPIIIATION BILL. 355 Senator Page. At the bottom of page 3 of these sheets that we have here it says: ^'The use of $500 for distribution," etc. Is that a mistake? That is under the heading, ''Menominee." It is on this carbon copy here. Mr. Abbott. That is a typographical error. That should be $500,000. Senator Page. I judged so. Dr. Eliot. The board asks, ^Mr. Chairman, that in the matter of inspection of oil and gas wells that the following provision be in- serted after line 18, page 31 : Provided, That the Secretary of the I nterior is hereby authorized to retain such portion of the oil and gas royalties belonging to the members of the Five Civilized Tribes in the State of Oklahoma as may be necessary in his judgment to cover the cost of inspection and other expenses in connection with oil and gas operations on the restricted lands of said Indians leased by his authority. This is to permit the safegaarding of the interests of the Indians in their oil and gas wells, which can be accomplished either by siich a provision or amendment as I suggest, or by an additional giatuity appropriation to provide for such inspection. Perhaps Mr. Meritt will know better than I which is the better way of accomplishing this result. Mr. Meritt. I might say, Mr. Chairman and Dr. EHot, that the Indian Ojfice is cooperating now with the Bureau of Mines to protect the enormous waste of gas that has been going on in that coimtry for a number of years, and the commissioner has in course of prepa- ration now an item which he expects to submit to this committee to cure that condition; and so far the Bureau of Mines has been using their general appropriation to cooperate with us down there in that matter, and tney feel and we feel that we should have a special appropriation in order to enlarge this work. The commissioner only recently fined an oil operator because he permitted the gas from a well to escape, which was not in compliance with the regulations af the office. i)r. Eliot. Can such an amendment, then, be added to the present bill as an additional gratuity appropriation ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; we will have that item. REIMBURSABLE APPROPRIATIONS. Dr. Eliot. Turning to page 8 of the memorandum, the board earnestly indorses the recommendation of the Commissioner of Indian A:iFairs for reimbursable appropriations to promote industry among the Indians, especially for those tribes whose funds have been iised or hypothecated to cdnstruct irrigation projects, and who have no t)ttier funds with which to improve and utiUze their irrigated lands. We espectaUy urge the appropriation of $200^000 to purchase cattle for the Mescalero Indians. I understand that has already been incor- porated in the bill by this committee. fort peck INDIANS. Dr. Eliot. Next we recommend an appropriation of at least $200,000 for the Fort Peck Indians. Of equal importance is a similar appropriation for Blackfeet Indians whose allotments have not yet 356 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. been approved and whose reservation not yet thrown open to settle- ment. We indorse also the recommendation for similar appropria- tions for Yuma and Colorado Rivers and for Flathead and Tongue Rivers, Mont. Senator Lane. What is that for— for the Blackfeet— for the pur- chase of what ? Dr. Eliot. Is that stock, Mr. Abbott? Mr. Abbott. Stock and agricultural implements. Senator Lane. Stock for what line of business ? Not mercantile stock or agriculture ? Dr. Eliot. Presumably both. Mr. Abbott tells me that the com- mitte has already appropriated $100,000 for that purpose. ^ ^ Senator Lane. I was wondering if you had made an investigation along this line for the Blackfeet Indians from the recommendation in your report. Dr. Eliot. That is probably from Mr. Abbott's knowledge of the field. No member of the board, I think, has visited Blackfeet within the last two years. I would be glad to have this recommenda- tion in regard to reimbursable appropriations entered on the record as it contains the feeling of the board as to the order in which such appropriations might reasonably be made, if they can not be made all at once. The board is very eager that there should be a substantial increase in the item on page 4 of the bUl m the appropriation for health, and from what Mr. Meritt has stated at the opening of this hearing, I understand that such is the desire and purpose of the office. The board has always urged this matter. The Chaikman. You have spoken of the health items ? Dr. Eliot. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Appropos of that, I might say that all of the health items have been referred to a subcommittee of this committee, and that it seems to be apj)arent to the members of the committee, and the honorable commissioner and his force, that immediate and drastic action of some kind must be taken to reheve the Indians. There is a very large percentage of them afflicted with tuberculosis and trachoma, and I believe the commissioner is working out a com- prehensive plan that would be of great benefit in the future to the Indians. Dr. Eliot. I trust, then, Mr. Chairman, that pages 9, 10, and 11 of this memorandum may be referred to that subcommittee. The board asks the attention of the committee to the need of favorable and immediate action on the bill introduced in the Senate March 6, 1914, by Senator Walsh, providiag for the allotment of the children of the Fort Peck Indians in accordance with the agreement nego- tiated between them and the Government. The need of urgency in that matter is that. Fort Peck Reservation is to be opened on May 1, and therefore special action may be necessary. Is that not so, Mr. Meritt ? Mr. Meritt. I may say that the committee, on the recommenda- tion of the office, adopted an item only a few days ago to allot those children on the Fort reck Reservation. The Chairman. Those who were born since the last allotments — 75 of them ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 357 OSAGE INDIANS. Dr. Eliot. On page 13 of the memorandum reference is made to the situation of the Osage Indians, which is famihar to this commit- tee, and we respectfully suggest that experience in probate matters with the Five Civilized Tribes is sufficient reason for repealing the act of April 18, 1912, providing for the probating of estates of the Osage Indians in the local courts. That again we shall be glad to have entered on the record as the judgment of the board in that matter. Senator Page. Did we not take that into consideration, Mr. Commissioner. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; that was under discussion. The Chairman. What is this— regarding the Osages ? Dr. Eliot. It is on page 11. Senator Page. This is a matter which we discussed somewhat at length yesterday. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, I may say that the amendment under discussion was the general appropriation for providing money for determining heirs of deceased Indians outside of the Five Civilized Tribes and the Osage Nation under the act of June 25, 1910. It was advocated that we go back to the local probate State courts outside of the Five Civihzed Tribes and the Osage Nation. We preferred the provision contained in the act of June 25, 1910, and the Board of In- dian Commissioners are now recommending the repeal of the Osage Act so far as it relates to the probating of Osage Indian estates in the local courts. The Chairman. So that as to the Five Civilized Tribes the local courts shall not have jurisdiction, and the secretary shall. Is that the recommendation ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I simply wanted to know how it was. Senator Lane. What is the reason for that, Dr. Eliot? What rea- sons do you advance ? Dr. Eliot. That, sir, is a matter of experience. As it has worked some evil among the Five Tribes, we wish to obviate that difficulty. On page 14 of the memorandum there is reference to the items in the bin m regard to the civil service, and the Board of Indian Commission- ers ask this committee to omit lines 13 to 17, inclusive, of page 5. Under that item the Secretary of the Interior is permitted to employ physicians outside of the civil service. The Chairman. What is the page ? Dr. Eliot. Page 5, Unes 13 to 17. We ask for the omission of those four Unes. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, may I state that I have received in- structions from the Secretary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to request that that legislation be omitted. That legislation was placed in the bill in the House, I beheve, on the recom- mendation of Representative Miller, of Minnesota, without our knowl- edge, and without our recommendation, and we felt that it would lower the efficiency of our service to permit those physicians to be em- ployed outside of the civil service. We want that item omitted. The Chairman. On what page of the comparison is that ? Mr. Meritt. It is on page 5 of the bill, Unes 13 to 17. 358 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. The C'liAiRMAN. Senators, there is a proposition here that on page 5 of the CO ' parison, after the word, ''herein," on line 13, to strike out thereaftei" thi' remainder of line 13, all of lines 14, 15, 16, and 17, down to the ^\ord ''provided." Does that meet what you wish, Mr. ^ientt ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. So that hereafter all physicians shall be employed with regard to civil-service laws ? Dr. Eliot. No, sir; this makes the provision that they shall not be; that new appointees shall not come under that law. The Chairman. But the. striking of this out would relegate it back^ to the former situation, would it not ? Mr. Meritt. Yes^ sir; we would like to have that omitted from the bill. Senator Page. Since both of these gentlemen agree on this point, I move that those lines be stricken out. The Chairman. The question is on striking out from lines 13 to 17 the following: Provided further, That the Secretary of the Interior may, in his discretion, employ physicians regularly licensed to practice to aid in carrying out the provisions of thi^g paragraph without requiring such employed physicians to pass any civil-service examination . While I ought to put the motion at once, I do wish, if I may, to say a word about that. There is a joint commission of the House and Senate that has been investigating and with a zeal and assiduity that are very commendable has made a very complete investigation. This joint commission sat in various States and gave special attention to the health among the Indians, because they felt that was the para- mount question —health. What the honorable commissioner says, and what this Board of Indian Commissioners say, is quite persuasive, as far as I am concerned, but ^\dll you not run into the danger, if you do not allow the Secretary of the Interior to have the authority to employ physicians - will you not be liable to run into a very harmful thing of hemming him in a procrustean bed and saying^ "You must take this physician and none other" ? I submit that he ought to be allowed to take at least a physician when he thinks the physician is the best. Senator Page. I only made the motion because they agreed, and I thought by agreeing on it they thought it was the best thing to do. I want to i-.uggest here that there was a certain health item that this board asked that we suspend action on until they can be heard, and I withdraw my motion and will let it come up later. The Chairman. The motion is withdrawn and the whole subject will be referred to the subcommittee having charge of the health conditions. Dr. Eliot. Father Ketcham points out that the Secretary of the Interior can now employ contract physicians outside of the civil service. The Chairman. That is the objection I raise. Mr. Meritt. We can now employ contract physicians. The Chairman. That avoids the necessity for this act. Senator Page, do you wish to withdraw your motion ? Senator Page. I withdraw my motion. I withdraw it because I much prefer to wait until Senator Kobinson comes in. INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. 359 The Chairman. That language will be referred to the subcom- mittee, on page 5 of the comparison, lines 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17. ABOLISHMENT OF THE OFFICE OF THE COMMISSIONER OF THE FIVE; TRIBES. Dr. Eliot. On page 31 of the bill, with reference to the expense of the headquarters of the Five Civilized Tribes, the Board of Indian Commissioners believe it to be undesirable that if any new positions are created under this clause of the act they should be outside of the classified service. The board asks the consideration of this com- mittee of such ari amendment of that clause as would provide that any new appointees shall be under the rules of the civil service. The Chairman Or what page is that ? Dr. Eliot. Page 31 of the bill. Mr. Meritt. It is at the top of page 42 of the comparison. The Chairman. Page 42 of the comparison, beginnmg with line 6. Will you read the language again that you wish stricken out ? Dr. Eliot. This clause provides, in the interest, presumably, of economy, for the consolidation of the offices of Commissioner to the the Five Civilized Tribes and superintendent of the Union Agency, and that one superintendent shall take the place of those two officers. If we read the clause correctly, the new office of superintendent of the Five Civilized Tribes will not be in the classiiied civil service. We desire, and we believe that this new apppointee should be under the rules of the civil service. The Chairman. Do you wish to discuss the item now, or pass it, Senators ? What is the pleasure of the committee ? Senator Gronna. As I understand it, this is directly along the line of the item we had on page 5. I understood the Doctor's request was that he wanted those men to be under the civil service. Senator Lane. In both cases — both physicians to be appointed ia Oklahoma. Senator Townsend. I would like to hear your reason for your views. Dr. Eliot. The efficiency of the service may be the only reason that we can advance. In the judgment of this impartial and dis- interested board the interests of the Indians can best be subserved by men under the rules. Senator Page. Do you know of any official drawing as high a salary as $5,000, who is appointed without the advice and consent of the Senate ? Dr. Eliot. None. Senator Page. This would be an innovation, as far as that is concerned. Dr. Eliot. The union agent now draws as large a salary as that and he is in the classified service Senator Lane. Does he draw^5,000 or $4,500? ;^,; Mr. Meritt. His salary is $4,500. Senator Townsend. You are anticipating some political mfluenco might be used to select a man who would not be qualified for the position of superintendent ? . __ _ Dr. Eliot. That is the judgment of the board; yes, sir. We have that apprehension. 360 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Townsend. In your experience in the service, and from what you have done, do you believe that there are men in ^^^,^®^X^^^ now under the classified service who are competent to hold that position of superintendent ? Dr. Eliot. I do. I should like to take this opportimity to testily to my appreciation of the high quality of the men now in the Indian Service, or in the upper grades of that service. In my experience in the field I have met many men that I think are qualified for such an ofB.ce as this, or even for higher office. Senator Townsend. Are you satisfied with the policy^ of com- bining those two ? Dr. Eliot. I personally have no acquaintance with the gentlemen • whose offices are abolished under this clause. My colleagues on the board have that acquaintance, and perhaps you would nke to hear from them. Senator Townsend. I would like to get all the information I can on this particular subject, as we have this matter up now, and you gentlemen will not be here every day. Dr. Eliot. It may be the pleasure of the committee to hear from Commissioners Ketcham and Moorehead. STATEMENT OF WARREN K. MOOREHEAD. Mr. Moorehead. Mr. Chairman, I did not come prepared to speak on this subject, and therefore my remarks will be very brief. I spent considerable time in Oklahoina and received a great deal of information from people in the Indian Service, and out of the Indian Service^missionaries and others, with reference to Oklahoma. I have received several hundred documents and letters, and I should give it as my personal opinion that Commissioner Wright and Com- missioner Kelsey are doing good work there, and personally I would not like to see those offices merged into one, under one man. I might be mistaken in such a statement. I make that statement simply on my own initiative, and I have gone into the matter with some care. There are tremendous problems in Oklahoma. The Indians for the most part are in a bad situation. They are becoming poorer as a whole. There are some individuals who, of course, are wealthy, and yet view with more or less alarm these general condi- tions in Oklahoma, and I fear if we should place one commissioner instead of Commissioners Wright and Kelsey in charge of the entire Oklahoma situation — that is of all the Indians there and their prop- erty rights, etc. — unless we secure an unusual man, that it might end in disaster. Senator Townsend. How long have those two men been there ? Mr. Moorehead. I can not answer that positively, but I understand that Mr. Kelsey and Mr. Wright have been there a number of years. Senator Townsend. If the situatioh is growing worse under them, why do you stiU insist that they are'the right men in that place? Mr. Moorehead. Because I think they understand the situation there, and they have done all that two men could do to remedy it. I think it is not because of them that it is growing worse. Senator Townsend. That is what I want to get at. Mr. Moorehead. It is because of other conditions. Senator Lane. What are those conditions ? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 361 Mr. MooREHEAD. Well, the conditions would obtain in several places — the crowding of Indians with the white people, the gradual elimination of the Indian holdings, the land passing into the hands of white people by one means or another, and the probate court, which you gentlemen are probably more famihar with than I am, which had not been very satisfactory, to put it mildly, in the State of Oklahoma. There might be a remedy. The condition might be remedied by putting in a new man, but, speaking personally, I would hke to see Mr. Kelsey and Mr. Wright continued. I know they are doing the best they can. Senator Lane. It is merely personal preference on your part, is it ? Mr. Moorehead. Yes, sir; not so much of them as men, but those two gentlemen as officers who seem to understand the situation. Senator Lane. If they are unable to remedy it and it is getting worse all the time, it would seem to me that would be a suggestion that there ought to be a change made. All your argument that they have been there several years and conditions are getting worse all the time for the Indians — you do not want that condition to con- tinue, do you ? Mr. Moorehead. No, sir; I do not want that condition to continue. Father Ketcham. I would like to say this much, that for my part conditions have not grown worse in Oklahoma because of these two gentlemen, but in spite of them; and to say also that there are no better men in the Indian Service than those two gentlemen, or more efficient men anywhere. That is my opinion. Senator Townsend. Their duties are separate, are they ? Father Ketcham. Yes, sir; they have separate duties, and condi- tions would grow worse in this matter under those two officers. I should judge they would grow worse more rapidly under one official. I should not think he womd be able to take care of the work. Those are my personal views. Senator Townsend. They are both pretty busy men, are they not ? Father Ketcham. They are very busy. " They are individuaUzino: everything there, and they are very competent for such work. I simply give this as my testimony. I do not know but that there might be a better solution of the management of things down there, but these are good men and efficient men, as everybody will admit. Senator Townsend. Can you point out to us, Father Ketcham, just exactly what some of the evils are down there which are working against the Indians and working against these two men ? Father Ketcham. I would rather refer this committee to the report issued by one of the members of our board. I think it has been circulated among the Senators. It goes into the matter in great detail. . ^ The Chairman. Do you refer to Fort Sill? Father Ketcham. No, sir. It is a report that was made some time ago by Commissioner Moorehead. I think the members of the com- mittee either have the report or can secure it. It is rather a lengthy subject to go into. Senator Lane. I might say that there are so many of these reports — thousands upon thousands of pages— having then- birth about Congress, that there is no living human being who can read them all without going insane, and we are unable to keep up with them; if you could 362 INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. tell us briefly, it would be better than to put us to that task, with all the other work that we have. We are unable to do it. Father Ketch am. As Mr. Moorehead has made a personal mvesti- gation of these matters, I would rather he would summarize them. Senator Fall. Our position here is to abolish the office of Com- missioner of the Five Tribes and the office of superintendent of the Union Agency, and to consolidate those offices in the hands of one man. That is apparently the object, and that he shall perform all the duties of both the present officials —that is, the superintendent and the commissioner —and shall reorganize the department and eliminate unnecessary clerks, subject to the approval of the Secre- tary of the Interior. Now, what authority has the commissioner^ under the law at this time, and what authority has the superintendent of the Union Agency, and why should it not be consolidated in one man, it seems to me, is the first thing to consider, and there is nothing here to prevent either the commissioner or superintendent being that man. The Chairman. May I interrupt you, Senator Fall? Senator Fall. Certainly. I just asked the question for informa- tion on the subject. The Chairman. It seems to me that since three of the members of the Board of Indian Commissioners are here, and you are suggesting a change in this language, without any disrespect to the Moorehead report, which undoubtedly would make a striking defense of the position assumed here — ^it seems to me that it would be ver;^ wise and expedient for you members of the Board of Indian Commissioners who are present to set forward now as succinctly as you may the reasons why you think this should be done, so that the reasons will go into this record and members of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs will see them. It occurs to the chairman that that ought to be done. Father Ketcham. The reason for my general idea in this matter is that if two men can not succeed — two good, worthy, industrious men — in ehminating these evils and bringing matters to a close, that one man, whatever the force, would be brought to a less speedy determination by one man than those two. Senator Fall. That is the reason I asked as to the authority. I am ignorant on this subject, and I want to get what the authority is. I can very readily understand if two men have equal authority, if one man assumes authority that the other says belongs to him, it might be very detrimental to the pubHc service. Mr. Moorehead. So far as I am aware, there has been no friction between Supt. Kelsey and Commissioner Wright, and that is unusual. They each foUow the fines of action which more or less parallel, and yet are independent. My reasons as a member of this board — speaking for myself — in advocating their retention brings up a subject so comprehensive that I can scarcety trust myself to speak on the spur of the moment, but I shaU summarize, if you will pardon me for being perhaps not quite as clear as I would be had I prepared myself. My personal observa- tions are as follows: I believe that Commissioners Wright and Kels?y should be retained, in view of their past services for these Indians; secondly, that their inspection service, cr district agents, so-called, over which there has been some difference of opinion as to INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 363 the work of those men, that that inspection force or held force be continued, and if possible increased. That would enable both thos men to get a better grip on the situation there in Oklahoma. In going over the State, investigating the condition of the Indian cabins, and so forth, as I did, I was struck with the general deplorable condition, and all I have in mind is to try to better their present con- dition. My report was, of course, very radical; perhaps I said some things I should not have said, but coming there to the scene and having observed with my own eyes and taken with me a camera, I found things I did not suppose existed in this country, I naturally wrote with some heat, yet all the statements are true and none have been questioned. I think Conunissioners Wright and Kelsey should be strengthened and supported in the work they are attempting to do. I see no other solution. I hope I am a false prophet and mistaken in that, but that is my candid opinion. Dr. Eliot. I have no right to testify as to the merits of the proposi- tion uniting the two propositions into one, but if in the interests of economy and efficiency tnat should be done, in the judgment of the • Board of Indian Commissioners, that new position should not be taken outside of the classified service. Both of these offices are now under civil service rules and in the judgment of the board the new appointees should be under civil rules, and we hope that provision can be included in the biU. Mr. Abbott. I think in answer to Senator Fall's question it should be said that the duties of the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes relate to tribal affairs, and the duties of the superintendent of Union Agency relate to the affairs of the individual Indians. That is the general answer. As to what remains of tribal affairs to be attended to the committee will find a statement in the report of the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1913, in the first few pages of the report. There is a com- prehensive statement on pages 8, 9, and part of 10. The Chairman. I would like to ask what reason induces the House of Representatives to incorporate this provision ? What was the argument? Do you know, Mr. Meritt ? Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, this item wa^ incorporated in the House bill on the recommendation of Representative Carter of Oklahoma and has the support I understand of the Oklahoma dele- gation in Congress. The conditions in eastern Oklahoma among the Indians of the Five Civilized Tribes justify the legislation that is now in the Indian bill, and I am authorized to state to this committee that the Indian Office and the department are in favor of the legis- lation now contained in the bill with two amendments. We shall ask for an increase in the appropriation allowed by the House. The House allowed $150,000 and we shall ask that that amount be increased to $225,000. Probably we can, in view of the consohda- tion, get along with $200,000, which will be a decrease over last year's appropriation of $50,000 for administrative work. We will also ask that there be incorporated in the bill after the word ''that", in line 6, these words: ''Effective July 1, 1914," so that it will be clear when these two offices shall be consolidated. Senator Townsend. Why do you ask to have them consohdated ? Mr. Meritt. Because the Commissioner to the Five Civihzed Tribes has been engaged in strictly tribal work, and the superintend- 364 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. ent of the Union Agency is engaged in individual Indian work. In addition to those two officials we have another official at Muskogee who is at the head of the Indian schools of the Five Civilized Tribes. The Commissioner to the Five Civihzed Tribes has been in charge of tribal work for a number of years. Congress has, by direct pro- ' visions, required that the tribal work of the Five Civilized Tribes be wound up. This work has slowly continued from year to year over the earnest protest of the Representatives from that State. The tribal work has practically been wound up at this time, except the disposal of the coal lands. The unallotted lands of the different nations have practically all been sold, or will be sold by the 1st of July. We have the affairs of the Cherokee Nation now practically wound up, and# they will be wound up by the 1st of July. The tribal affairs of the Seminole Nation are practically wound up, and the affairs of the Creek Nation will be wound up very shortly after the 1st of July if we can procure legislation which will equalize Creek allotments. We have that legislation now in the department already prepared and we shall ask that that legislation be incorporated in this bill. That will enable us to wind up the tribal affairs of the Creek Nation. The. surplus tribal property of the CHoctaw and Chickasaw Nations is very largely disposed of, except the coal lands. The surface of those lands will soon be advertised and will be sold this spring or summer. Part of the coal lands has been leased and that property will continue tribal and the proceeds be used for tribal purposes for a number of years. We feel that there can be no justification for continuing in one build- ing two sets of Federal officials engaged on practically the same work. I have personally been in favor of this more than three years and have made that recommendation to the department and to the Commis- < sioner of Indian Affairs. This legislation will result in economy; will result in improved administration in eastern Oklahoma and it will result in placing a man in charge of that work who has an ap- pointment from the President of the United States and whose appoint- ment will be confirmed by the United States Senate, which I believe wdll be a sufficient guarantee of his character and ability and fitness for the job. Senator Gronn A. I find on page 8 of the report, or in the report of the Comniissioners of the Five Civilized Tribes, I believe it is the report of Mr. Wright, that he states there is considerable work yet to be done. Of course I have not gone into the report very carefully, but it would seem from his report that there is still a lot of work to be done. Mr. Meritt. Considerable clerical work remains to be done, Mr. Chairman, but that clerical \^ork could be done as well under the supervision of the Superintendent of the Five Civihzed Tribes, the new position which will be created by this bill if the present legislation is enacted, as well as under the Commissioner of the Five Civilized Tribes. Senator TowNSEND. You do r.ot doubt if this is taken out of civil service that this will be a political appointment ? Mr. Meritt. I could not say in advance who will receive this appointment. Senator Townsend. What do you say of Mr. Wright? Mr. Meritt. Mr. Wright had no civil-service status until two years ago, when he was covered upder by an Executive order, and I hardly INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. 365 believe that a point can be made on his position along civil-service lines. Senator Townsend. I want to ask you, Mr. Moprehead, what you find is the relation between Mr. Wright and the Indians out there ? Mr. MooREHEAD. Senator, I can not say that I went into that in any detail. I talked, with Mr. Wright a great deal and was in his office, but I found that Mr. Kelsey and Mr. Kelsey's men seemed to be a little more in touch with individual Indians than Commissioner Wright. I do not know to any great extent Mr. Wright's relations with the Indians. I understood he was acting for them in their tribal capacity. Senator Page. Have you been there in Oklahoma for the last few years and are you thoroughly conversant with this work ? Mr. MooRiJHEAD. Senator, I could not say that I am thoroughly conversant. I went about 800 or 900 miles overland on the reserva- tion, studying, for about five weeks. But I had previous Indian expe- rience that stood me in good stead. Father Ketcham. I should like to make one statement. The object of the recommendations of the board was to urge civil-service status for this new appointee in case he was provided for. The other expressions were drawn out by questions from the various Senators. I should not want to advocate keeping two places, the positions there, if there is no further necessity for them. Of course i had not reahzed that the work of the commission, of Mr. Wright, had drawn to a close. Of course if he has finished up his work, or practically finished it up, there would not be the same reason to keep the two places, but the Board of Indian Commissioners urges civil-service status for this new position; and certain Indians from that country, and some very prominent ones, Indians who are not on the very best of terms with Mr. Wright, have expressed themselves to me as not being in harmony with the idea of losing him; they beheve he has done good work, and these Indians have said to me that they think he is necessary yet. But they may be mistaken. The Indian Office would know more about conditions there than the individual Indians. But you have had in mind one especially who has never been on friendly terms with Mr. Wright, who said that he views with alarm anything which would eliminate him and Mr. Kelsey from the field. The Chairman. May I ask a question there ? Is it the opinion of the Board of Indian Commissioners that the evolution of the civil service will bring a better man to the public service in this position than would an appointment by the President ? Father Ketcham. I think the Board of Indian Commissioners would view with distrust any movement to weaken the force of civil service. The Chairman. As a general proposition ? Father Ketcham. Exactly, and if it is argued that a better man can be secured for this place outside of the civil service why can that principle not be carried on along the Une ? Mr. Wright has not had civil-service status for a long time, but he has been in the service all his life. Senator Townsend. Father Ketcham, would you mind teUmg me why that Indian you talked with viewed with alarm the proposition to dispense with Mr. Wright's services? 366 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Father Ketcham. He may have been speaking unadvisedly when he spoke to me, but he said, or at least intimated, that this was a move that would break down some of the barriers between the Indians there and those who were seeking to gain advantage over them. I do not know that his contention is correct, but that is certainly what he intimated to me if he did not say it outright. Senator La Follette. I want to ask Mr. Meritt one question. How many superintendents have we in the Indian Service ? Mr. Meritt. About 135. Senator La Follette. How do their salaries range? Mr. Meritt. Their salaries range from $1,000 up to $3,500, with the exception of the superintendent of the Union Agency and tl^e Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes. The superintendent of the Union Agency receives $4,500, and the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes receives $5,000. The average salary of superin- tendents is about $1,600. Senator La Follette. Would you recommend to the committee removing the superintendents from the civil service ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; the Indian Office, the commissioner, and the Secretary, are heartily in favor of civil service. We have shown our attitude on this subject by asking this committee to eliminate from this bill the item incorporated therein by the House, excluding certain school employees from the civil service. We have also asked this committee to exclude from this bill an item which eliminates certain positions from the civil service. We believe, however, that the civil service proposition does not seriously apply to this particular provision, which is going to be made in this bill if the item now in the Indian bill is passed. Senator La Follette. In what way do you distinguish this superin- tendency from that of the others in so far as the civil service should apply ? Mr. Meritt. I have no personal knowledge but that one of the officials now located at Muskogee may receive the appointment from the President. That will be a matter within the discretion of the President. Senator La Follette. Oh, of course. Well, I suppose this ap^ pointment will be made, as all appointments are made, or sub- stantially all appointments are made, on the recommendations of Senators and (Jongressmen, and the President, knowing nothing of the local situation, acts upon that recommendation as the best advice he can get. Mr. Meritt. The recommendation of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, I believe, will have great weight. Senator La Follette. That would be true, Mr. Meritt, would it not, if we were to take the civil service restrictions off of all the superintendents and allow them all to be appointed this same way? What I am driving at is this: Is there any reason why this superin- tendent should be taken out of the civil service, this office that is proposed to be created by this bill, any more than why they should all be taken out of the civil service ? Senator Fall. This is the only presidential appointment. Senator La Follette. I do not believe, from my limited expe- rience in public life, that that makes any difference m regard to the character of the appointments. I do not think the appointees are INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 367 iany worthier of credit or higher in rank or abiUty because they are appoiQted by the President than they would be if they were appointed by the Secretary of the Interior — not a bit. The President acts in all these cases, as we all know, upon the recommendations of Senators. The moment you take them from out under the civil service they become political appoiutments and the recommendations are made by Senators and Members of Congress, and I regret very much to see the Indian Ofhce committed to the policy of making any inroad whatever upon the civil-service provisions, as appHed to the Indian Service. This is of course the creation of a new position, but when we have another bill here I can see no reason why the Senators or the Members of Congress from some other State where there are two or three super- iatendents who are now imder the civil service should not have intro- duced into the next appropriation bill an item making those super- intendents presidential appointees and taking them out of the civil service, as though that would be any guaranty for any higher grade of efficiency. Senator Townsend. You said a httle while ago, Mr. Meritt, there possibly might be one of these men appointed, these very men there now. You would not need this provision in order to get that appoint- ment, would you, if you abolished the office and let them be appointed under the civil service, the President -v^ould have a wide, free hand to put in either one of those men if they are fit men ? Now, I am not saying whether they are or not. Do you recognize the fact that you have in your service men who are competent to fill this position ? Mr. Meeiit. I think we have in the service men who are com- petent to fi.U this position. Senator Townsend. If that is true, what possible advantage can there be in changing the law ? Mr. Meritt. I want to make it perfectly plain, Mr. Chah-man, that the Indian Office is not attempting in any way to make any in- roads on the civil service. The Indian Office to-day has a unique rec- ord, unusual in conditions existing there. We have about 135 super- intendents, and at least 100 of those superintendents are Repubh- cans. We have in the Indian Office to-day two chiefs of divisions, who are in charge of the Land Division and the Education Division, the principal administrative divisions of that office, who are Repub- licans. We have as our second assistant commissioner and chief clerk a man who is a Republican. We are not asking for any inroad on the civil-service laws. On the contrary, we are observing civil- service laws more strictly in the Indian Service than was ever done before in the history of that service. Senator Fall. Right there, would you have these people appointed by the civil service, would you have so many of these Republicans in there if it was not for the civil service ? The Chairman. The Democratic Senators would importune you so constantly that your life would be a burden. ^ . . Mr. Meritt. We recognize the urgent need and protection ot civil- service laws, otherwise we could not have efficient Indian adminis- tration. .. . T 1 T Senator Townsend. I am not q^uarrelmg with the pohcy you are pursuing on that; I am not criticizing it even; I had no such thought in mind but this is what occurred to me : Now, here is an appoint- ment that somebody has suggested. There must have been some 368 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. reason in somebody's mind why this should be done this way. I do not beheve your department originated it. Mr. Meritt. No, sir; our department did not originate this legisla- tion. It was incorporated in the bill in the House of Representatives and, I might say, if there is any extended discussion on this item, I would be glad if Senator Owen and Senator Gore could be present. I probably have answered as extensively as I can regarding this matter. Senator Townsend. Thus far there has not been a word Said here that furnishes a sufficient reason for making that change. Now, if you had said to me, if it was true, that you could not get a man to fill this larger position possibly under the civil service, why there might have been some reason for that, but it would seem to me that the very sug- gestion that we have local representatives here to explain this item shows conclusively the very evil which these gentlemen have antici- pated in making this possible change. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, I do not beheve that the conditions which have prevailed at Muskogee and among the Five Civihzed Tribes during the last 16 years can be justified. We have had appointed to'positions in that office politicians from practically half the States of this Union; men have held their positions because they would distribute political patronage to the various Senators and Con- gressmen. They have gotten their appropriations because they had certain employees from certain districts who aided them in the past in their work. These employees were appointed largely through the efforts of the officials now in charge of the^work at Muskogee. I beheve all those political appointees have been covered under by the ciyU. service. Those men will be protected in their positions, but the department and the Indian Office believe that the efficiency of that work can probably be increased by the appointment of a man who has not been connected with that work in the past. That tribal work should have been wound up several years ago. It is because of pol- itics and these political appointments that has made the Five Gvilized Tribes work inefficient, which has strung the work along for a long period of years when the tribal affairs should have been wound up some time ago. I myself am a hearty believer in civil service. Com- missioner Sells is a hearty believer in civil service; so is Secretary Lane. Senator Townsend. Now, before you throw those appointments Senator La Follette. That is a fiiie argument for keeping this appointment in the civil service. Senator Townsend. I was going to say, it seems to me that every- thing you have said here — the fact that you complain there has been too much politics — in which I agree with you — m the heart of it — I know that is true all through the service. I do not quarrel with you a moment on that proposition. But this is a proposition to perpet- uate that very condition. Now, you say you have got men in your office or in your employ who are competent. If this was left free-y- if you proceeded to consolidate — if it was left free under the civil service to select a man for that position, why, you could select him without being embarrassed by any political influences, could you not ? Mr. MERiTTi Mr. Chairman, I believe under the wording of this item that the President of the United States, who is a very ardent civil-service advocate, will be able to select a man who is competent and who is able to improve the present Indian conditions at Muskogee. / INDIAN < APPEOPRIATION BILL. 369 Senator Fall. I understand the request is made that this item be 5 left until the Senators from Oklahoma might be heard, and, pending that, the purpose of bringing this to an issue, I move that on the 'fifth Une, after the word ''President," there be inserted the words *^from the civil service," and that motion may rest pending, I pre- simae, the presence of the Senators from Oklahoma. The Chairman. The Senator from New Mexico moves that on ' page 42 Senator Fall. I do not desire to press it now, until the Senators are here. The Chairman. That on page 42 of the comparison, on line 10, after the word "President," that the words ''from the civil service" ^e included. I presume the other should be stricken out, which would be to the contrary. Is that right ? Senator Fall. No, sir. The Chairman. That amendment will be pending. (Thereupon, at 3.50 p. m., Tuesday, March 31, 1914, the commit- tee adjourned until 2 o'clock p. m., Wednesday, April 1, 1914.) WEDNESDAY, APRIL 1, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock p.m. Present: Senators Ashiirst (chairman), Lane, Robinson, Thomp- son, Clapp, La FoUette, Page, Gronna, Townsend, and Fall; also Hon. Cato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and Mr. E. B. Meritt, Assistant Commissioner; also the members of the Board of Indian Commissioners'. amendments suggested by board of INDIAN COMMISSIONERS. The Chairman. Senators, when the committee adjourned yester- day Mr. Eliot had not quite concluded the presentation of the matters brought to our attention by the Board of Indian Commissioners, but he had apparently concluded. It will be remembered also that this is the hour set by the committee for hearing arguments for and against the abolition of .the Indian warehouses. What is the pleasure of the committee ? Would you rather have Dr. Eliot and the Board of Indian Commissioners conclude their statements, which I appre- hend will only be very brief, or do you wish now to hear arguments for and against the abolition of the warehouses ? Senator Lane. If it wiU only take a few minutes, Dr. Eliot had better conclude. STATEMENT OF MR. GEORGE VAUX, JR., CHAIRMAN BOARD OF INDIAN COMMISSIONERS. The Chairman. Mr. Vaux, you are the chairman of the Board of Indian Commissioners ? Mr. Vaux. Yes, sir I am very sorry indeed that I could not have ' been here yesterday, and Dr. Ehot is very sorry that he is not able to be here to-day He has received a telegraphic summons taking him to New York this morning. 39746— PT 1—14 ^24 ' 370 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. ; There are only three or four items that were not covered in the discussion yesterday, which we would like to call the committee's attention to. The first is respecting a matter which was brought to our attention by the Women's Board of Domestic Missions of the Reformed Church of America. Those ladies, about a dozen or more years ago, with the full permission of the Secretary of War, started a mission including a school and home for orphans, etc., on the Fort Sill Mihtary Reservation. Now that the Fort Sill Apaches have been removed to Mescalero, and the balance have been located in south- western Oklahoma, these mission buildings are of no use for the pur- pose for which they were erected, because the Indians have been taken elsewhere. At the time when the buildings were located it was expected the Indians would remain at Fort Sill probably permanently. Subsequent events have shown that that was not the way the matter worked out. It seems only fair and just that after this missionary board has for so many years given time and expense to the conduct of the school for those Indians that there should be some remuneration to them in actual cost of the buildings, which are not capable of being moved elsewhere. They estimated that their buildings cost, with equip- ment, somewhere between $13,000 and $14,000, and they have re- quested that the sum of $10,000 be appropriated to them for the purpose of reimbursing them for that outlay. The Chairman. Mr. Vaux, in the letter which you so kindly trans- mitted to the committee through the chairman, did you discuss that in your report ? Mr. Vaux. That is a matter that is not in that report. The matter, 1 think, was before the House committee, but they considered that there were certain technical reasons why it had not a place in the Indian bill. I am not sure whether that is correct, or whether it ought to be included in the Indian bill or a separate bill. It is simply a matter that I desire to call up for your consideration. The Chairman. Will you yield for a question? Mr. Vaux. Certainly. The Chairman. Mr. Meritt, what do you say? Do you wish to discuss that question now ? Mr. Meritt. We have submitted a report to the House Committee on Indian Affairs and have recommended an item of $9,000. I am not sure that this is the proper place to bring this item up, and at this time, but we have already handled the matter in the department. Mr. Vaux. I was not aware that the matter had taken tnat form, but at all events I think it is one that you can very well give some serious consideration to when you are making up the form of the bill. Mr. Abbott. Mr. Chairman, this is an item which was brought to the attention of the House committee by Representative Ferris, an item in which he was very much interested. I was informed by Rep- resentative Ferris that he had asked Senator Owen to introduce the item before this committee; Mrs. Roe, the president of this board, had also taken it up with the Board of Indian Commissioners, and we merely wanted to go on record as saying that we believe this item should go in the Indian bill, because if it goes in a separate- bill the chances are it will be delayed.- Representative Ferris is very much interested in this item, and I would like to ask that before INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 371 you decide not to include it in the Indian bill Representative Ferris be given an opportunity to be heard on it, as I know he wants to be. The Chairman. That will be done. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, I might say that we have a large number of amendments that we will later request this committee to insert in the Indian bill. Senator Page. Including this one ? Mr. Meritt. They will probably include this. IVIr. Yaux. Another item which is not referred to in the letter which was written to you, Senator, is this : We would suggest that a proviso, or a new paragraph, be inserted, possibly most appropriately loUowing Une 8 on page 34, as follows: On page 34, after line 8, insert an item authorizing the Secretary of the Interior to distribute per capita among the enrolled members of the Five Civilized Tribes of Indians (freedmen excepted) all funds belonging to said tribes now in the Treasury of the IJnited States or under the control of the Secretary of the Interior and to continue said distribution from time to time as funds accumulate from the sale of tribal property until all funds arising from the sale of the residue of the tribal estate have been distributed, reserving only an amount sufficient for the maintenance of tribal schools, provided that the Secretary of the Interior shall retain supervision over and distribute, under rules and regulations to be prescribed by him, funds belonging to restricted or incompetent Indians. Without going into a further discussion of the Five Civihzed Tribes matters, which were taken up so fully yesterday, it has seemed to the members of our board that if this fund were properly distributed under the supervision of the Secretary of the Interior, it would be not only of very great advantage to the Indians but to the whole com- munity in Oklahoma. I beheve it is a matter that the gentlemen from Oklahoma are agreed about, that there should be an immediate distribution of the funds that are accumulating in quite large quan- tities. To get down now to the matters that are referred to in the brief that was submitted to you, as respects the question of irrigation, the question of irrigation and forestry, we have, two or three pages calling attention also to the briefs on irrigation and forestry which I think were printed by direction of this committee. With your permission, as Mr. Abbott has given a great deal of attention to this phase of the subject, I would ask that he may be permitted to make a statement for about two minutes covering the position we wish to take on that subject. STATEMENT OF MR. F. H. ABBOTT, SECRETARY BOARD OF INDIAN COMMISSIONERS. Mr. Abbott. Mr. Chairman, I do not care to take even two minutes on this subject. I would hke to have, for the sake of the record on the matter of forestry, the draft of proposed legislation on pages 68 and 69 printed in the hearings, and the justification found on pages 61 and 62. The Chairman. Senators, Mr. Abbott, secretary of the Board of Indian Commissioners, asks that the matter found on pages 68 and 69 372 INDIAN APPBOPEIATION BILL. and the justification on pages 61 and 62 be included in the record. If there is no objection, tnat will be so ordered. (The matter referred to is as follows:) DRAFT OF PROPOSED LEGISLATION. Section 1. Any funds expended under any existing law or subsequent act of Con- gress for the care, protection, and supervision of the sale of timber on any Indian allotment or Indian reservation, in connection with local field work as distinguished from general office or field supervision, shall be reimbursed to the Government from the proceeds of the sale of said timber when made, or from other Indian funds avail- able for said purposes, in accordance with rules and regulations to be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior. . ^ Sec. 2. No sale or disposal of Indian timber hereafter shall be made until a state- ment in writing shall have been made to the Indian owners thereof setting out the plane and purpose of said proposed disposal and said Indian owners have been given opportunity to express, in writing, their views respecting the same, under rules and regulations to be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior; and, before charging any part of any appropriation against the proceeds of the sale of timber of any Indiaine or Indian tribe, when made, for the care and protection or for the disposal of said timber, said Indians or Indian tribe shall be given opportunity by the Secretary ^of the Interior to express, in writing, their views thereon, under rules and regulations prescribed by him. Analysis of Cost and Method op Administering Timber Resources Under Existing Law and Remedy Suggested. general statement. Previous to the act of Congress of June 25, 1910 (36 Stat. L., 855 to 857), there was no general authority of law for the cutting and sale of timber on Indian reservations, except the cutting or sale of dead timber. (See act of Feb. 16, 1889, 25 Stat. L., 673.) Such living Indian timber as was cut before that date was cut under special acts of Congress or Indian treaties, except small areas that were cut under special permits to fit the land for agricultural use. Most of the cutting of Indian timbef for the market, until within the last two or three years, was in the States of Wisconsin and Minnesota, and the expenses incurred by the Government in connection with the care, protection, and sale of timber outside these two States were largely indirect and incidental to geti- eral reservation supervision. The direct expenditure for these purposes in Wisconsin and Minnesota were comparatively small and were confined chiefly to the employment of a general superintendent of logging to see that contracts were lived up to. With the enactment of the law of June 25, 1910, the Indian Bureau began the organi- zation of a special force to protect and supervise the sale of timber on Indian reserva- tions. It is the expenses of administration and sale of Indian timber under this act and previous special acts and the correctness of the present policy of making gratuity app]*opriations to meet those expenses with which this discussion has to do. analysis of timber resources and cost of administration. On Indian reservations having more than 5,000,000 feet of estimated stumpage each, there was estimated on June 30, 1912, a total of 39,671,032,320 board feet, of a total esti- mated stumpage value of $83,682,647. The care and protection of the timber on these reservations cost the Government, out of gratuity appropriations, in the year 1912, $70,372.65; out of the appropriation for 1914 there was apportioned up to December 1, 1913, for these purposes $75,016.80. The total valuation of the property of the 133,833 Indians owning these timber resources was estimated on June 30, 1912, at $305,274,205i' The costs of care and protection mentioned do not include approximately $30,000 a year, which is paid to district foresters, lumbermen, and other investigating officers, and a forester and forestry clerks employed in the Indian Bureau in Washington, nor do they include any part of the salaries of reservation superintendents, Indian police, farmers, or other employees, a portion of whose time is devoted to the care and protec- tion of Indian timber. In short, in addition to expenses of general office and field supervision, the Government is paying gratuities of approximately $75,000 a year for employees stationed on Indian reservations ^nd whose time is devoted chiefly to the protection and disposal of Indian timber. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 873 SUGGESTED CHANGES IN LEGISLATIVE POLICY. Under existing la^v and practice, Indians owning these timber resonrcea, estimated at $83,682,647, generally have no voice in tho disposition or control thereof. At the same tipae the Government is putting its hand into its pocket to pay the expense of protecting and selling the timber of Indians on such reservations, for example, as Klamatii, where their average per capita wealth is $25,000; Colville, where it is nearly $10,000; Yakima, where it is over $5,000; and Warm Springs, Flathead, and Navaho, where it is nearly as great. For the Government to bestow upon Indians the cost of handling their timber resources and at the same time deprive them of the exercise of any responsibility in handling such resources and of the education which would result from such a handling is a form of paternalism which occasions us?less cost to the Government and positive harm to tlie Indians. To remedy this situation it is recom- mended that legislation be enacted tt) provide: First. That the cost of timber administration, aside from that of general super- vision, should be charged against the proceeds of the timber when sold on the respec- tive reservations in connection with which said expenses are incurred. Second. That before any more timber is sold under the act of June 25, 1910, or any other act of Congress, the Indian owners thereof shall be consulted and given an opportunity to express their \'iews in writing. Third. That before expenses are incurred by the Secretary of the Interior from the appropriation ''Industrial work and care of timber" and the apportionment of ex- ?enses among the several reservations made by him for the care and protection of ndian forests, the Indians shall be consulted in the manner above indicated. Legislation along the lines above suggested would result in an annual saving to the Government of approximately S75,000 a year and in the development of a policy of education and training of the Indians to meet the responsibility of handling and caring for their own timber resources. Mr. Abbott. And also the draft of legislation concerning irrigation, found on pages 56, 57, and 58 of the brief, and the comments thereon, that are contained on pages 11 to 16 of the brief. Draft of Proposed Legislation. Section 1. The proportionate cost of all projects, including cost of construction and maintenance, heretofore commenced or completed or hereafter constructed for the irrigation of Indian lands, whether paid for out of gratuity appropriations made by Congress or from direct or reimbureable apjDropriations from tribal funds in the Treasury of the United States, shall be apportioned equitably by projects by the Secretary of the Interior, and the cost thus determined, which cost in no case shall exceed the reasonable valuation of the irrigation benefits at the time paid determina- tion of costs is made, shall become a charge against the land under Faid projects from the date of said apportionment of cost by the" Secretary of the Interior, whether said land is allotted or unallotted and whether held under trust patent in the name of indi\-idual allottees or held in common by the tribe. This charge shall become a first lien on such land; in the case of trust patents already issued, notice of such lien shall be given in such manner as the Secretary of the Interior may from time to time prescribe; and in the case of trust patents or patents in fee hereafter issued for allot- ments benefited by such irrigaiion projects the fact of such lien sh.ill be recited on the face of said trust patents or patents in fee and the amount of the lien set forth thereon, which said lien, howe^'er, shall not be enforced so long as the original allottee or his heirs or other persons of Indian blood, deemed by the Secretary of the Interior to be equitably entitled to saiH exemption, shall actually occupy the allotment, and the receipt of the Secretary of the Interior, or of the officer, agent, or employee duly authorized by him for that purpose, for the payment o^ the amount assessed against any allotment as herein pro\ided shall, when duly recorded by the recorder of deeds in the county wherein the land is located, operate as a satisfaction of such lien; in the case of projects heretofore or hereafter constructed in whole or in part from tribal funds the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to reimburse said tribal funds the amount of the irrigation costs thus charged, from the pro rata share in the tribal funds expended on such project, when distributed, to which the owners of the land benefited are entitled, for the payment of such owners' respectiA^e portions of said costs; and if such pro rata shares of the individual allottees are not sufficient to cover their pro rata- portions of the costs of irrigation assessed against their land, then the difference between the said irrigation costs and their respective pro rata shares* in the tribal fund shall become a first lien against their land, subject to the conditions hereinbefore pro- 374 INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. vided, and when said land shall pass from the ownership of said allottees or their heirs or other persons of Indian blood, deemed by the Secretary of the Interior to De equitably entitled to the same exemptions as the original allottee or his heirs, ine amount of said lien shall be reimbursed to the tribal fund from the proceeds ot the sale of the land in accordance with regulations to be prescribed by the becretary ot the Interior, or if such tribal fund finally shall haA^e been distributed, then the amount of said lien shall be paid into the Treasury of the United States for distribution to the members of the tribe entitled thereto, under rules and regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior. In the case of projects constructed in whole or m part from gratuitv appropriations made by Congress, the irrigation costs assessed against the land as herein provided shall be reimbursed to the Government when the land passes from Indian ownership, said costs to be and remain a first lien against said land until paid in accordance with rules and regulations to be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior. . -, , •■ Sec. 2. The Secretarv of the Interior, on or before July first,^ nineteen hundrea and fourteen, shall establish a uniform system of cost keeping in connection with the maintenance of all projects for the irrigation of Indian lands, and after that date all charges of operation and maintenance shall be apportioned equitably by projects among the lands under the various projects, whether beneficial use of the same is made or not, said costs to be paid in accordance with rules and regulations to be prescribed by said Secretary of the Interior, the same, unless paid in accordance with said rules and regulations, to become a charge and lien against said land as hereinbefore provided. Sec. 3. No new irrigation projects to be paid for from Indian funds shall be author- ized by Congress until the purpose and scope of said project and the estimated cost thereof shall have been explained to the Indians whose funds it is proposed to use for such purpos.es and they shall have, been given opportunity to express m writing their views thereon, either through their duly authorized business committee, or through a general council or meeting of said Indians at such time and in such manner as the Secretary of the Interior may direct; and the Secretary of the Interior shall permit, under rules. and regulations to be prescribed by him, the individual Indians whose lands are under said projects to express in writing their views with respect to the costs of operation and maintenance of said projects prior to the final determination and assessing of said costs by him against their lands. Sec. 4. No part of the appropriations heretofore or hereafter made for the pay of salaries and incidental expenses of the chief inspector of irrigation and assistant inspector of irrigation and general superintendents of irrigation in the Indian Serv- ice or for other engineers or employees engaged in the work of investigation or gen- eral supervision in connection with the irrigation of Indian lauds shall be included as a part of the cost to be apportioned and assessed as hereinbefore provided against Indian lands under irrigation projects, except where the Secretary of the Interior may find the services of said employees so localized and so definitely associated for a period of time with any given project that the value of their services in connection therewith are accurately ascertainable, and that such services are a necessary inte- gral part of the field work thereon, and a reasonable and proper charge in connection with said local field work as distinguished from general office or field supervision; and nothing herein contained shall be construed to prohibit reasonable expenditures from any available appropriation for the irrigation of Indian lands for preliminary surveys and investigations to determine the feasibility^ and estimated cost of new projects, for investigations and surveys for power and reservoir sites on Indian res- ervations in accordance with the provisions of section twelve of the act of June twenty-fifth, nineteen hundred and ten, or to prevent the Bureau of Indian Affairs from having the benefit of consultation with engineers in other branches of the public service or carrying out existing agreements with the Reclamation Service. Comments on Irrigation Law and Administration on Indian Reservations. The reclamation of arid lands on Indian reservations by irrigation, to provid(3 better horned for Indian families, and to bring to them the benefits of civilized society through the agricultural development of their lands, is one of the most, beneficent policies the Government has ever inaugurated in dealing with their affairs. Too much credit can not be given to Senators and Congressmen and administrative officers of the Government who have had to do with the enactment of laws and the securing of appropriations to carry out this policy. The motives of legislators have been benevolent and patriotic, and the work of the Government engineers and other ofiiciab INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 375 who have constructed the projects has been honest and comparatively efficient and economical. However, a careful examination of Indian irrigation laws and condi- tions prevailing in connection with their administration reveals defects which need remedy. It is no reflection upon the high motives of those responsible for present law and present conditions that these defects exist. It was a new legislative and administrative field. Irrigation laws were not uniform in the several States. Condi- tions varied on different Indian resei-vatlons. The legislation was necessarily experi- mental. Nevertheless, the defects are serious; they should be faced franldy, and the remedies needed should be applied promptly to preserve the good in the existing ordfer of things and eliminate the bad before greater harm results. Lack of uniformity in Indian irrigation laws, lack of utilization by Indians of their irrigated lands, lack of a voice on the part of the Indians in the expenditure of their funds for the construction and maintenance of their irrigation projects, and failure to individualize the reclamation costs by charging them against the lands benefited are the most serious fundamental defects of the present situation. GENERAL STATEMENT. Approximately nine million dollars have been expended for the irrigation of Indian lands. About seven millions of this amount have been charged to tribal funds and the balance expended from gratuity appropriations made by Congi-ess. About 600,000 acres of irrigable Indian lands have been brought under ditch. Of this area less than 100,000 acres are being irrigated by Indians, while a large part of the area thus irrigated is not farmed, but is used to produce hay crops. And, notwithstanding the fact that either tiibal or Government funds have been used to irrigate these lands^ on all except three reservations, when patents in fee are issued to Indian allottees, and in every case where their lands are sold under the supervision of the Government either the individual Indian who sells the land or the purchaser thereof puts in his pocket the value of the water right for which the tribe or the Government has paid; and not only are the members of the tribe not consulted with respect to the expendi- ture of their money, which ultimately j)asses in this manner either to the individual allottee or to the white purchaser of his land, but the individual whose land is bene- fited is given no opportunity to assume any responsibility in connection therewith or to appreciate the value of the benefit conferred, while the free-\yater right thus secured by the individual Indian offers a constant inducement to him to part with his land. UTILIZATION HAS NOT KEPT PACE WITH CONSTRUCTION. Some striking illustrations of the lack of utilization of irrigable Indian lands may be found on the following reservations: On the Crow Reservation, where irrigation ditches have been completed for more than 10 years and where the total area under constructed ditches is estimated at 68,756 acres, only 11,376 acres are irrigated by Indians, and most of tnis is irrigated for hay crops; on the Falthead Reservation the present irrigable area is estimated at 38,000 acres, but only 1,088 acres are irrigated by Indians; on the Fort Belkngip Reservation, out of 22,000 acres under ditch, 7,670 acres are irrigated by Indians; on Fort Hall Reservation, Indians irrigate only 3,300 acres out of present irrigable area of 35,000 acres; on the Wind River Reservation the Indians are irrigating approximately 5,000 acres out of a total irrigable area of 35,000 acres, and most of this area is irrigated for hay crops; on the Uintah Reserva- tion, out of a total irrigable area of 87,880 acres the Indians are irrigating approxi- mately 6,000 acres; on the Yakima Reservation, where the present irrigable area is 54,000 acres, the Indians are irrigating 5,350 acres; and at Yuma the Indians are irri- gating approximately 200 acres out of an irrigable area of 4,000 acres. In the reser- vations of the Southwest the showing of utilization of irrigable lands is very much better. WATER RIGHTS MAY BE LOST THROUGH OPERATION OF STATE LAW. The lack of utilization noted in the foregoing paragraph is serious enough from an industrial standpoint, but it is fraught with peculiar dangers in the case of the reser- vations where the water rights are subject to the operation of State law. On the Fort Hall Reservation (Idaho) beneficial use must be made of the water for the irri- gable lands prior to the year 1916, in order to prevent the appropriation of the water by other water users; on the Wind River Reservation in Wyoming beneficial use must likewise be made before 1916; and on the Uintah Reservation (Utah) benefi- cial use must be made before 1919. The total investment in the construction of irrigation ditches and the purchase of water rights on these three reservations amounts 37& INDIAN APPROPRIATION BELL. to approxipiately 12,000,000, and in the case of the Wind River and Uintah Reser- vations the expenditure has been made from Indian funds. REASONS FOR LACK OF UTILIZATION. Lack of proper utilization can not be charged to tJie indolence of the Indian. The present system is doubtless responsible for an undue lack of interest and indifference on his part. He has not been consulted in advance of the expenditure; the cost of the construction and the expense of maintenance on the basis of each acre irrigated . have not been explained and brought home to him; the money being taken out of a tribal fund which has never become a part of his individual posession, he has not understood his intimate individual interest Ln its expenditure, nor has he realized ^^ the value, in dollars and cents, of the benefit. INDIANS UNPREPARED FOR NEW CONDITIONS. # In many cases irrigation on Indian reservations has been provided for in response to a perfectly natural and normal demand of white settlers, either for the opening to settlement of irrigable lands on Indian reservations or for obtaining water from streams flowing through Indian reservations for the irrigation of their lands on the > outside. As a result, the construction of irrigation projects on Indian reservations . has often preceded the proper preparation of the Indians for such construction and often has preceded the development of transportation facilities necessary to market ■ the products of the land irrigated, and in the case of the large reservations in the- Northwest irrigation has been brought to Indians unskilled in the art of irrigation^ ' strangers to the art of agriculture, trained for generations to the exciting life of the , chase, having no knowledge of any of the pursuits of modern civilized life except a somewhat general knowledge of the raising of cattle and horses. Generally, how-- ever, this premature development of irrigation has had sufficient justification in the necessity of such development to preserve the rights of the Indians to the water. . NO MONEY OR CREDIT TO RECLAIM LANDS. One of the chief reasons for the failure of the Indians on the reservations mentioned - to utilize their irrigable lands has been the failure to provide appropriations neces- • sary to enable them to buy teams and tools and other equipment, without which the ;, utilization of their lands is impossible. The main thought apparently has been to build the ditches, and with rare exceptions no provision has been made to use tribal funds for any other purpose than that of reimbursing the Government for the cost of construction of the project. At the same time the Indian has lacked the credit,, which is available to the white settler li\T.ng under similar conditions necessary to help himself. Through the policy of reimbursable appropriations established during ,., the last few years Congress has begun to prepare a remedy for these conditions. But -, on a majority of the reservations mentioned above Indians are still in a position where they have to sit idly by and witness the expenditure of their own funds in the con- struction and maintenance of irrigation ditches which, under present conditions, they can not use and in which expenditures they have no voice — helpless, though they have more than ample resources in their undeveloped lands to secure money', advances necessary to make productive use thereof. Another reason for the lack of adequate utilization of Indian lands may be found,,; in the failure to adjust the size of the allotment of irrigable land to the conditions , of soil and climate and the industrial habits and needs of the Indians. While in the Southwest, on the Colorado River and Yuma Reservations, and several others, allot- ments have been made in 10-acre tracts, and in some cases smaller, suitable to the methods of intensive agriculture practiced in that section of country, this policy has been lacking almost universally in the reservations of the Northwest, wherein most cases allotment has been made under the general allotment act, which did not take into consideration the question of possible irrigation. The allotment of 80 acres to each man, woman, and child is found under the irrigation projects on the Yakima, Uintah, Crow, Wind River, Flathead, and Southern Ute (diminished) . Reservations, while on Blackfeet and Fort Peck the size of the allotment is 40 acres, and on Fort Hall 40 acres to each head of family and 20 acres to each other member of the tribe. Take the Uintah and Wind River Reservations, for example, wherei. beneficial use is required by State law in order to protect the water rights. The average family of five members would have 400 acres of irrigable land. The average white family in the same section of the country can not utilize satisfactorily over 80, or at the most 160 acres of the same land. How can an Indian family unassisted, INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 377 and especially without money or credit to buy tools and equipment, be expected to reclaim 400 acresi of land? In striking contrast with the lack of agricultural development on irrigated Indian reservations, under the present system, is the marked development of agriculture during the last few years on a number of reservations in the regions of normal rainfall where Indians have had control of their own funds and the responsibility of expend- ing them in the improvement and development of their lands, under the guidance of practical Indian Service farmers. REMEDIES. The remedies needed will be suggested briefly, as follows: 1. General legislation that will charge the individual land benefited with the cost of construction and maintenance, payment to be made out of the share in the tribal funds of the individual whose land is benefited or from the proceeds of the sale of the land when it passes from Indian ownership where the share of the individual in the tribal fund is insufficient. 2. The general legislation suggested in the above paragraph should provide that the tribe whose funds it is proposed to use for the construction of irrigation projects shall be first consulted. 3. The proposed general legislation should also provide for charging of costs of main- tenance and operation against the lands under the project and should give the Indians whose lands are benefited a voice in said maintenance and operation. 4. In order not to overburden irrigated Indian lands by the legislation suggested, especially since the Indians have not heretofore been consulted, the costs of super- visory engineering and of experimental construction and cost of investigations and preliminary surveys should be excluded from the charges made against the lands and paid from gratuity appropriations. 5. Reimbursable appropriations from tribal funds should be made immediately for all Indian reservations where the utilization of irrigable lands has not kept pace with the construction of irrigation projects through lack of funds in the hands of indi- vidual Indians to make such utilization possible. 6. Skilled irrigation farmers should be provided out of gratuity appropriations to give advice and assistance to Indians having irrigable lands. The enactment of the legislation suggested would affect the estimates for irrigation for the year 1915 in the Indian bill now before Congress as follows. It would change the following specific items from gratuity to reimbursable items: Pima, maintenance $10, 000 Papago, construction and maintenance 50, 000 Fort Majave, construction and maintenance 5, 000 Nomadic Papago, construction 35, 600 ■ Navaho, domestic and stock 50, 000 Fort Hall, maintenance 40, 000 Modoc Point, maintenance 4, 740 Total , 195, 340 It would make reimbursable, when the lands in question pass from Indian owner- ship, all items included in the estimate of $345,700 "for irrigation, Indian reserva- tions, 1915," in the pending Indian bill, except those to pay the salaries and expenses of supervisory engineers, the cost of experimental construction and of preliminary surveys, amounting to approximately $200,000. In addition to this ultimate saving of approximately $400,000 to the Government in the pending Indian bill the effect of the proposed legislation would be to make reimbursable to the Government similar sums htretofore appropriated, sums which would aggregate, perhaps, $1,000,000 when the lands in question pass from Indian ownership, and make reimbursable to Indian tribes sums heretofore expended from tribal funds in excess of the pro rata shares of the individual whose land has been benefited in said funds. GRATUITY ITEMS WHICH SHOULD BE REIMBURSABLE FROM TRIBAL FUNDS. There are several Indian irrigation projects now being constructed and maintained out of gratuity appropriations which should be paid for from tribal funds. For instance there is no reason why the cost of irrigation and water development for the Navajo Indians should be paid for out of gratuity appropriations. The aggregate individual and tribal property of these Indians is estimated at $28,022,270, nearly 378 INDIAN APPEOPKIATION BILL, $1,000 per capita. This estimate does not include their immense coal properties, estimated by the Geological Survey at 16,700,000,000 tons; they have also $7,500,000 worth of timber. The gratuity items in the pending Indian bill for surveys and maintenance of ditches on the Klamath Indian Reservation in Oregon should like- wise be changed to reimbursable items. The aggregate individual and tribal resources of the Indians on this reservation are estimated at $28,846,935.39, or $25,824 per capita. More than ten billion feet of their timber is mature and ready for the market. In like manner the gratuity appropriations for irrigation on the Southern Ute Reserva- tion should be made reimbursable from tribal funds. Besides their allotments and treaty annuities, these Indians have a pro rata interest in a fund of $3,000,000 in the Treasury to their credit. VARYING METHODS OF EXPENDITURE FOR CONSTRUCTION AND MAINTENANCE, A glance at the digests of legislation relating to irrigation on the various Indian* reservations in the following pages will show the need of harmonizing all future legis- lation and methods of administration. In some cases construction and maintenance are provided for out of gratuity appropriations; in others, out of appropriations from tribal funds; in others, construction is to be paid for out of the sale of water rights, and maintenance is provided out of gratuity aj^propriations; in many, construction is provided for out of tribal funds and no provision whatever made for maintenance; in some cases provision is made whereby maintenance is to be under the direction of the holders of water rights after a major part of the land under the project passes to white ownership. In several cases provision is made whereby the Indians may reclaim their lands under reclamation projects in accordance with the reclamation act. In one case, at Pyramid Lake, Nev., 5-acre allotments are provided for, and reclamation under the reclamation act is made obligatory. In another case, at Yaki- ma, Indians may sell a portion of their lands and come under the reclamation act upon their election so to do. These illustrations of differences of method of handling the questions of construction and maintenance on different Indian reservations could be increased. FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES IGNORED, The right of the Indians to a voice in the expenditure of their funds in the irriga- tion of their lands is a fundamental one and should not longer be ignored. On the other hand, there is no obligation on the part of this Government to pay out gratui- tously one dollar for the irrigation of the land of an individual Indian who has ample means of his own for this purpose. Not only that, but every dollar so invested, oy depriving the individual Indian benefited of the responsibility connected with the acquisition of the benefit and of the opportunity of appreciating the money value thereof, is a lesson in demoralizing paternalism and an investment in pauperism. To use the funds of an Indiaii tribe without its consent to confer benefits upon the individual members thereof, and through such individuals often to drain the tribal resources into the pockets of white men, is still less defensible. I only want to say this, Mr. Chairman, very briefly: With respect to the amendment relating to forestry, the Government can be saved approximately $75,000 from the present appropriation by incorporat- ing that amendment which provides the charges shall be paid out of the Indian funds available, and providing also that the Indians shall be consulted before their funds shall be used for forestry protection or their timber is sold. With respect to irrigation, the Government would save, by adopting this amendment, approximately a quarter of a million dollars ulti- mately from the annual appropriations. There is a provision also for consulting Indians before expending any of their funds for the purposes of irrigation. The Board of Indian Commissioners is very desirious that the present Congress shall incorporate somewhere in this Indian biU a provision that the Indians hereafter shall be con- sulted before their funds are used for these various purposes. I will not go into detail further on that point, except to say that in my judgment, after carefully looking into the existing irrigation laws — which are various and numerous — the amendment which now stands INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 379 m the House bill, which is before you, will not only not be adequate to meet the situation, but I believe will really result in adding more confusion to it. This is an extremely important question. I have been studying it as diligently as possible in a general way for nearly five years, and I have given several months of very careful study to it recently. If there is a subcommittee that cares to look into this subject further, I shall be very glad at any time to take up the matter. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, in a letter that I have just received this morning, disagrees with my amendment respecting forestry. • I beheve I can convince him that he is mistaken. I do not, however, ask this committee to adopt an amendment suggested or recommended by the board where there is a difference of opinion from the Indian Office, because we desire to act in thorough and hearty cooperation, as far as we can, but I want to get our views before you. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, at this point I desire to have inserted in the record the letter of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs reporting adversely to the Secretary of the Interior, on the proposed legislation by Mr. Abbott on both forestry and irrigation. I have the letters here. The Chairman. That will be done. That ^\all be included in the record of the committee's proceedings. (The letters referred to are as follows :) Department of the Interior, Office of Indian affairs, Washington, March IS, 1914. The Secretary of the Interior. Sir: I return lierewith typewritten brief on Indian irrigation, prepared by Mr. F. H. Abbott, secretary of the Board of Indian Commissioners. Mr. Abbott calls attention to conditions affecting Indian water rights and administration on irriga- tion projects and says that there are four serious fundamental defects in the present situation: 1. Lack of uniformity in Indian irrigation laws. 2. Lack of utilization by Indians of their irrigated lands. 3. Lack of a voice on the part of the Indians in the expenditure of thier funds for the construction and maintenance of their irrigation projects. 4. Failure to individualize the reclamation costs by charging them against the lands benefited. All of these matters have been heretofore considered in the Indian Office, and some of them, at least, were before Mr. Abbott while he was at the head of the office. The records show that for over a year continuous efforts have been made to cure the situation and to secure legislation putting the Indian water rights on a uniform basis. In submitting estimates for the Indian bill for the fiscal year 1915 changes were recommended and inserted in the bill as reported to the House by the Indian Com- mittee, giving authority to equalize the reclamation charges on a basis of irrigable land owned under the systems constructed from appropriations reimbursable from tribal funds, and to make reimbursable by the owners of lands under other systems all expenditures from the general irrigation fund, and to reserve the prior water rights necessary for the irrigation of the Indian lands. Estimates have been made for money to develop irrigable lands, and this subject has received close attention in the office. We do not agree that a voice on the part of the Indians as to construction and oper- ation of irrigating systems is a fundamental principle necessary to be observed in handling these matters, as they involve questions of great economic importance and require the consideration of trained minds. On page 10 of Mr. Abbott's brief he begins his suggestions of remedies needed, and on pages 80-84 is a draft of proposed legislation. In paragraph 5 on page 11 , he sug- gests that reimbursable appropriations from tribal funds be made immediately for developing the irrigable land. Elsewhere it is proposed that all of the reclamation benefits should be borne by the owners of the land benefited, which is in line with the policy of the office, as shown by the records. We do not agree that any appro- 380 INDIAN APPROPBIATIGN BILL.. priation for development of individral allotments eholild be made reimbursabte from tribal funds, as suggested, but such appropriation should be reimbursable by the individuals for whose benefit any expenditure therefrom might be made. Taking up the draft of legislation proposed by Mr. Abbott, the changes suggested in section 1 seem to be covered by the last two provisos in the general irrigation item ■of the present print of the Indian bill for 1915. The changes suggested in section 2 follow recommendations made by Chief Inspector , of Irrigation W. M. Reed over a year ago, and iri the present print of the bill provision is made for the employment of a field-cost accountant to establish a uniform system ^ of cost keeping in connection with the maintenance of irrigation projects as suggested by Mr. Abbott, and in addition to standardize the accounting for the construction and other expenses incidental to such work. Section 3 is a proposed limitation of future action by Congress, and aside from this it is not believed to be of any advantage, and would only serve to open up additional avenues for extensive correspondence. In section 4 a question is brought up which, if decided in accordance with Mr. Abbott's suggestion, would bring about a radical change in fixing reclamation charges for irrigable lands on Indian projects, and would probably force a similar change in connection with the operations of the United States Reclamation Service. This section proposes that no part of the appropriations made for salaries and incidental expenses of the chief and assistant inspectors of irrigation, general superintendents of irrigation, or other engineers or employees engaged in the work of investigation and general supervision in connection with Indian projects, shall be included as part of the cost against the land . As proposed, it is certainly not in line with established Government procedure, and could not be adopted by any private or corporation irrigation project. The expenses of the administrative, supervisory, and investigating forces are as much a part of the . proper cost against lands to be irrigated as the laborer and his tools actually engaged in moving the dirt. No private or corporate project could ever be brought to the state where financiers would back it, or could even get a comprehensive knowledge of it, without preliminary investigations and engineering reports. Under the act of April 4, 1910 (36 Stat. L., 269-270), such preliminary examinations and engineering reports are required to be submitted on .a 11 new irrigation projects in the Irrigation Service^' and under a proper distribution of costs the expenses of this work should be a part of the charge against the land. As this branch of the Indian work is now organized and conducted, it is believed that there are no expenses of this kind paid for from any irrigation appropriation or Indian tribal funds which should not be a charge against the land. The citations of legislation on pages 19 to 69 of Mr. Abbott's brief would indicate a ^eat deal of research work. In this connection, however, attention is invited to a compilation of extracts from Federal statutes relating to irrigation on Indian reserva- tions, prepared in the irrigation section of this oflB,ce, a copy of which was furnished i Mr. Abbott for his official use while he was head of the office. The citations given in his brief appear to follow very closely the extracts as prepared in the office. Only,, seven copies of this work were bound, to account for which indicates that one is still in the possession of Mr. Abbott. It thus appears that there is not much in his brief that is new, and that the various matters which require attention have been known and considered in the office for a . considerable period of time, and that substantial progress in correcting tlie objection- able features incident to these matters has been made. There is inclosed herewith a copy of the extracts from Federal statutes relating.to irrigation on Indian reservations, prepared in the office, together with a copy of the hearings before the subcommittee of the Committee on Indian Affairs of the House of Representatives, on the Indian appropriation bill for 1915, with references to the. discussion of matters pertinent to the case. This copy of the legislation is in daily use in irrigation section, and it is suggested that it be returned as soon as convenient. Very truly, yours, Cato Sells, Commissioner. Department of the Interior, Office of Indian Affairs, Washington, March 16, 1914. Dear Mr. Secretary: I have considered the draft of proposed legislation for the administration of Indian timber lands which was submitted to you by the secretary. . of the Board of Indian Commissioners on February 9, 1914, and in compliance with . your request of February 13, 1914, 1 present my views as to the need of such legislation. INDIAN APPROPEIATION JUT.L. 381 Sections 7 and 8 of the act of June 25, 1910 (36 Stat. L., 855, 857), authorized the sale of the Umber from both allotted and unallotted Indian lands, under such regulations as the Secretary of the Interior should prescribe, and the use of the proceeds for the benefit of the individual allottee or for the members of the tribe in such manner as the Secretary should determine. Under authority of the^e sections the Department of the Interior prescribed regulations for the sale of timber under date of June 29 1911 It was considered that the act of June 25, 1910, authorized the Secretary of the Interior to provide for the payment of all expenses connected with a sale of timber from the gross proceeds, and sections 10 and 21 of the regulations of June 29. 1911, provided for such payment. I attach a copy of the said regulations, with the parts authorizino- a deduction for expenses underlined in red ink. ° The enactment of section 1 of the proposed legislation would not broaden the scope of the present law and the regulations prescribed thereunder as to the payment of expenses connected with "sales" of timber from either allotted or unallotted lands. On the contrary, such enactment would restrict somewhat the discretion now lodged with the department, because of the limitation therein to expenses comnected with local field work. Section 12 of the regulations of June 29, 1911, requires the execution of a contract by the Indian owner or owners of an allotment before timber in an amount exceeding $25 in stumpa^e value is sold therefrom, and section 9 of the required contract (Form 5-489), which is printed on pages 56 to 59, inclusive, of the regulations, states that the expenses connected with the sale will be paid from the proceeds. Timber having a Btumpage value less than $25 may be removed under authority of a written permit issued by the Indian superintendent. Section 12 of the regulations also requires an examination of the timber and the submission of a written report thereon in all pro- posed sales where the stumpage value exceeds $25, and section 15 provides for due public notice of all such sales, whether of allotted or unallotted timber. It is my understanding that Indian Service officials have invariably explained to Indians the plan and purpose of proposed timber sales. Thus, under present practice, full opportunity is given the Indians for an expression of their views as to proposed sales. Tne decision as to the sale of timber from anv allotment has rested ultimately with the individual Indian or Indians concerned. The proposed legislation would not affect the present policy and practice of the department as to sales of allotment timber, except that it would doubtless encourage the spirit of protest among a certain class of Indians. The whole tendency of this proposed legislation would be to divide responsibility, promote delay, incite opposition, and develop resentment. The department is giving careful attention to all representations of the Indians as to the sale of tribal timber, but has not entirely conceded to them the right to deter- mine when sales should be made or what should be the charge against the proceeds for purposes of administration. In almost every instance in which the department has in the past attempted to allow the tribe to determine such questions the result has been disappointing. Such ' legislation as proposed would be in direct opposition to the policy which Congress has heretofore pursued and which the Supreme Court of the United States has repeat- edly sustained in the Lone Wolf and other decisions. I am confident that a success- ful administration of Indian affairs is dependent upon a maintenance of the principle that the United States has jurisdiction over tribal property. This principle found full recognition in section 7 of the act of June 25, 1910, above cited, which vested in the Secretary of the Interior plenary authority as to the sale of timber on unallotted lands within Indian reservations. Unless this policy is to be reversed there is appar- ently no need of legislation which shall compel the Secretary of the Interior to do that which he has been accustomed to do heretofore, namely, to consult with the Indians in order to obtain the benefit of their views as to proposed sales of timber. But there is another feature of the proposed legislation which I wish to discuss. The proposed legislation would authorize the accumulation from year to year and from decade to decade of charges against the timber holdings of individual Indians and of Indian tribes for the "care and protection " of timber. It is proper that the expenses of the care and protection of Indian timber and of its sale should be met from Indian funds wherever the resources of the Indians are sufficient to meet them. This policy has heretofore been consistently followed. Since 1910 a part, or all, of the salaries of forest guards and other c-mployees have been paid from Indian funds on from 16 to 20 Indian reservations, and the cost of roads, trails, telephone lines, cabins, corrals, etc., has been met from Indian funds on still a larger number of reservations. During the present fiscal year about $40,000 in salaries will be paid from the proceeds of timber sales and a large amount will be paid from Indian tribal funds for the building of roads, trails, telephone lines, etc. No expenditures of this kind have been made in such form as to place a mortgage S82 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. upon funds to be received from future timber sales. The expenditure of Umited sums along certain lines of forestry work (such as cruising timber and builamg ot permanent improvements) in anticipation of reimbursements from future timber sales would be justifiable, but the adoption of a general policy of paving the current expenses of protecting Indian timberlands from an appropriation which is to be reimbursed from timber sales to be made at a distant and indefinite future time would, m my opinion, be exceedingly unwise. _ ^ , , ^r j u + I believe that the enactment of the proposed legislation would afford no suDstan- tial benefits and would tend to interfere very seriously with a clean-cut, business-like administration of timber work in the Indian Service. Very truly, yours, ^^.^^^^^ C^xo Sells, Commissioner. Hon. Franklin K. Lane, Secretary of the Interior. WAREHOUSES. Mr. Vaxjx, There are two other items that I wish to refer to. One is the question of warehouses, which, as I understand, there is a time definitely fixed for. I, perhaps, might take up the other matter first, although I would prefer it being left to the last, and that is the provision on page 10 of the bill, as follows : For expenses of the Board of Indian Commissioners, $4,000, including not to exceed $300 for office rent. I do not want to say anything at all with regard to that, in justi- fication of the board or otherwise, save only to refer the members of the committee to the matters that have been presented to them here by this board, and it is for the committee to state whether it feels that the work that has been done by the board is worth while or not. I confess that we were disappointed that the House committee did not see fit to increase our appropriation above $4,000, as it has been doing for some time past, because we feel we could use the money well. Senator Clapp. Before you leave that I think it should go in the record (because it might be misunderstood by others) that no part of this appropriation is designed for compensating members of the board. Of course, we understand that, but the reader of this record might not. Mr. Vaux. All the members of the board serve without pay. Senator Clapp. Certainly. Mr. Vaux. We would also suggest that the last clause on line 4 of page 10 of the bill, making the appropriation to us, be stricken out; that is, the words, ''including not to exceed $300 for office rent." At present, through the courtesy of the Department of the Interior and the Bureau of Mines, we have rooms for which we are paying no office rent. Therefore it would seem to be desirable that those words, which are surplusage, should be eliminated from the bill. Mr. Chairman, do you desire that I shall say anything now upon the question of warehouses ? The Chairman. If you will pardon the Chair, I do not know what the committee thinks, but the rules of the committee are that Senators who appear shall always be heard first on any particular matter. There are some Senators present, and I think also Members of the House, who wish to be heard, and they will be heard first. INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. 333 GOODS AND SUPPLIES FOR INDIAN SERVICE — WAREHOUSES. The item will therefore be item No. 10, page 9 of the printed bill, discussion on page 203 of the hearings, as follows: For the purchase of goods and supplies for the Indian Service, inchiding inspection, pay of necessary employees, and all other expenses connected therewith, including advertising, storage, and transportation of Indian goods and supplies, $300,000: Provided, That after July first, nineteen hundred and fourteen, no part of the sum hereby appropriated shall be used for the maintenance of warehouses in the Indian Service. 1 observe Senator Hitchcock present. We will hear Senator Hitchcock. STATEMENT OF HON. GILBERT M. HITCHCOCK, A SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF NEBRASKA. Senator Hitchcock. Mr. Chairman, this is a very ancient contro- versy, and on every occasion on which it has been submitted to the Senate and the Committee on Indian Affairs it has been decided in favor of the warehouse proposition. I am not entirely f amihar with the history of the controversy, but as I recall it, originally Indian suppUes were purchased without much rule or regulation by agents of the Interior Department, or the Indian Bureau, and were shipped direct to agencies or schools, and were inspected after receipt. The practice resulted in a great deal of extravagance and a great deal of fraud, and was altogether unsatis- factory as well as unsystematic. There gradually grew up a dispo- sition to locate warehouses to which goods might be shipped and in which they might be inspected and from which they might, in smaller parcels, be shipped to the points where they were to be consumed. The result has been the estabHshment of a warehouse in New York, one in Chicago, one in St. Louis, one in Omaha, and one in San Francisco. Indian goods are purchased now under this practice in large quantities and are shipped to those warehouses in such quan- tities as the estimate is made for their distribution. In those ware- houses they are inspected; in those warehouses they are subdivided into convenient portions, and from them they are shipped out to sev- veral hundred agencies and schools most conveniently located to the particular warehouse selected. The advantage may be stated as fol- lows: First, the. Government buys in the open, by competition; sec- ond, it buys in large quantities. The result of that is that it buys at a much lower rate than the price for the particular agency or particular school. , There is another great advantage which the Government derives, or which the Indian Service derives, and which in the aggregate I understand amounts to $150,000 or $200,000, in that the shipments being made from these conveniently located warehouses go, for a large part, over the land-grant railroads over which the Government has a special rate by reason of the land grant. I think that conces- sion amounts to something like $150,000 a year. Now, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, it seems to me simply a business proposition. The practice has grown up from necessity. It has grown up from experience. It is based upon the experience of large business concerns — concerns like the Standard Oil Co. or the Steel Co., or any large concerns which have need 384 IN-DIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. to ship goods in the various localities. They make their purchases in bulk; they ship their purchases in the first place to warehouses in bulk, and they do not subdivide them into smaller parcels or mto less than carload lots until it becomes necessary to take them out of the warehouses for that purpose. As I understand from the hearings before the House committee it has been definitely shown that the total cost of these warehouses, including rent, employees, light, and all the cost of operation, even to the inspection of the goods, amounts to only something hke $62,000. I think that is correct Mr. Vaux. $62,475. Senator Hitchcock. $62,475, and the total amount of goods handled through these warehouses is stated in the committee hearing before the House to be $1,395,893. The Chairman. What page of the hearings is that? Senator Hitchcock. That is on page 210. Now I am individually interested naturally in the maintenance of the warehouse at Omaha, just as other Senators and other Representatives have become inter- ested in warehouses in New York and Chicago and St. Louis, because they have been located there. But I speak in the first place for the maintenance of the system. It may be that some of these ware- houses are not wisely located, although I do not admit it, and I do not think it. From looking over the reports, it seems to me natm'al if some of the goods can be most advantageously bought in New York it is wise to have a warehouse there, although it is rather remote from the point of consumption. Chicago is apparently an important warehouse and so is Omaha and St. Louis, and because of the great distance it has been found necessary to locate one in San Francisco, although the business done in the San Francisco warehouse, I think, is the smallest of all. So I say that as far as the system is concerned there can be no doubt that it is an economical one; that it prevents fraud; that it protects the interests of the Indians ; and that it results in enabling the Government to buy the Indian suppUes at the lowest possible price. It enables the Government to provide several places where goods can be stored; it enables the Government to have an inspection that is real and not an inspection off at some Indian agency or school where the inspection is apt to be nominal. In the interest of showing the location of these shipments, I have asked my secretary to make a map, and I would like to hang it upon the wall here for the inspection of the committee. The records show, Mr. Chairman, that the number of points to which shipments are made amount to 372 schools and agencies and under the present practice these supplies for those 372 are purchased at one tia.e under competitive bidding. That map indicates the very large number of points to which the shipments must neces- sarily be made, and it seems to me obvious from mere inspection of the map of these more than 300 points that it is absolutely necessary in the interest of economy to have all goods purchased rather at a few central points from which they can be distributed to these various points, and I believe it is the experience of the Indian Bureau that the points which have in the course of years been selected one at a ti^ne being; al] railroad centers and all located in the neighbor- hood fro.n which the goods can be most economically distributed — INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. P85 are the points which this committee would name if it were to select them in the first place. I am not here to speak for the warehouse at Omaha particularly. I may say, in conclusion, that the records show for that warehouse that the cost of handling the goods there, which have been shipped in there, which have been inspected there and which have been shipped out of there, amount to only 2.V per cent, and the fact that those goods were bought very largely on competitive bidding, and the fact that the practice of the Government as it learns the exact amounts which will be required year by year, which is to increase every year the amount bought by competitive bidding -incUcates that the Government is getting an amount for its money, that there is real inspection of goods that are going to the Indians, and that when they are subdivided and shipped out in small lots to the various points the very best possible results are secured. I have no technical knowledge of this and I shall be glad to leave the remainder of the question to the representatives here. Senator Gronna. How many warehouses are supposed to be estab- lished, or how many places do you intend to make in order to pur- chase these goods for the Indians ? Senator Hitohcock. I think perhaps Senator Gronna was not here when I gave the list. This is not a proposition to establish any ware- houses. There have been established in the course of time and year by year at different times as exigencies arose— one warehouse in New York, one warehouse in Chicago, one in St. Louis, one in Omaha, and one at San Francisco, and the practice would undoubtedly be continued if the House of Representatives had not inserted this pro- viso in the bill: Provided, That after July first, nineteen hundred and fourteen, no part of the sum above appropriated shall be used for maintenance of warehouses in the Indian service. I understand that proviso was inserted there without substituting any system for that now in existence. If that proviso is allowed to stand in the bill it will simply destroy all system and leave the matter to run wild without any provision at all as to how the goods shall be purchased, and which shall be purchased and how they shall be inspected, when they shall be inspected, or where they shall be stored, and I think it is not in the interest of economy, it is not in the interest of system, and it would be an absolute detriment instead of a benefit. I have never heard any argument to the contrary. The whole diffi- culty in the House of Representatives — and I speak from experi- ence, having served there for three terms and having gone tliroiigh this fight several times — has been a certain petty jealousy which has grown up against the towns. The argument has been made that it was favoring those towns to have the warehouses there, and, of course, it is an incidental benefit to the town to have a warehouse in the town, but unless it can be shown that the Government is detrimentally affected or unless it can be shown that the Indians are detrimentally affected, or that some increase cost is provided by it, it seems to me perfect folly to throw away an established system and set sail on an unknown sea. I believe it will result in frauds; I beheve it will be opening v/ide the opportunities to sell goods to the Government without inspection, and to depend upon the old inspection that occurred years ago, as 39746— PT 1—14 25 386 INDIAN- APPROPRIATION BILL. we all know, out in the Indian agencies vt^hen they drove cattle around the Government agent several times, and counted them several times before they sold them to the Government. Senator Gronna. The question of freight rates is a big item in the ultimate cost of goods. The reason T made my inquiry was this: I do not know from what the western reservations are supplied. For instance, the reservation in my own State and Montana. I suppose — in fact I know — that the commissioner can tell us about that. yiv. Meritt. They are supplied largely from Chicago, St. Louis, and Omaha. Senator Gronna. What class of goods does this list refer to? Does it mean all meats, or goods, cattle, and supplies ? * Mr. I\Ieritt. This refers to all classes of goods. Mr. Chairman, we might get the matter before the. committee in the light in which the Indian OfRce wishes to have this legislation, If I may take this opportunity to make a statement. The Indian Office submitted its justification on this item as foUows: For the purchase of goods and supplies for the Indian Service, including inspection, pay of necessary employees, and all other expenses connected therewith, including advertising, storage, and transportation of Indian goods and supplies, $325,000. The House added to this item the following proviso clause: Provided, That after July first, nineteen hundred and fourteen, no part of the sum hereby appropriated shall be used for the maintenance of warehouses in the Indian Service. The Indian Office does not wish this clause to remain in the bill as it is now written. We prefer that this proviso read as foUows: Provided, That the Commissioner of Indian Affairs is hereby authorized and directed to maintain only two warehouses after July first, nineteen hundred and foiirteen. It is the belief of the Indian Office that we need only two ware- houses, and that we can maintain in other cities temporary ware- houses for certain months of the year. Senator Kobinson. May I interrupt you? Mr. Meritt. Certainly. Senator Robinson. The proviso that you suggest there I. think would be subject to a point of order. Mr. Meritt. Not more so than the present proviso. Senator Robinson. I do not agree with you. That is a limitation by the House of the money. It is new legislation. There is no ques- tion in my mind about it, but if you have considered it, very wall. Mr. Meritt. We would be glad to have the item amended so that it wiU not be subject to a point of order. WJiat we wish is legislation that will allow us two permanent warehouses. Senator Gronna. Mr. Meritt, I wanted to ask you something with regard to the merits of this question. I wanted to have some explana- tion why we should confine this, or limit this, to two places m the whole United States. I want you to give us, or at least to give me, for my own benefit, some reason why we should do that. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chau-man, we have set out very fuUy in the House hearings a statement regarding the warehouses and have given full and detailed information. We have with us Mr. Fry, of the Indian Office, who is our purchasing agent or representative, and he will be glad to answer any questions that the committee may wish to ask INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 387 X him. We would prefer, however, before Mr. Fry makes his statement, that representatives of the warehouses submit such statements as they may wish to make so that the office may have an opportunity to answer them. The Chairman. Mr. Meritt, we will hear these gentlemen soon, but I think we will hear the representatives who want to be heard first, or the senators. Senator Page. Did Senator EQtchcock conclude his statement ? Senator Gronna. I was simply going to say that before we take final action I would Uke to be heard on this item. The Chairman. Do you want to be heard to-day? Senator Gronna. No; I want it passed over until some other time, because I have some knowledge of the prices of goods and how they are boiight and how they are sold and now they are handled. The Chairman. Senator Hitchcock, did you conclude your state- ment? Senator Hitchcock. I think so, Mr. Chairman, unless, with your permission, something might occur to me later. STATEMENT OF HON. C. 0. LOBECK, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEBRASKA. Mr. LoBECK. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I favor the system of purchasing supplies as it has been going on for the last few years under the warehouse system. In the olden days when we sold goods and shipped them to the agencies, we got our pay in three, four, and five months; it depended on the time that it took the agent to check up. Now, our merchants — and I was formerly a merchant — get their pay as a practically cash proposition. Now, in buying the goods that are not bought or bid on, the incidental sup- phes that come during the year where those warehouses are situated, these requests are sent to them and the man in charge goes out and sends out different requests for bids. I have not bid for the Indian warehouse at Omaha because I have been out of the business for a number of years, but I used to bid there for a number of years on hardware lines for the Army. We would get requests from Fort Assiniboine or Fort Robinson, and the different forts in the North- west and on that particular item where the bidder was the lowest he got just so much and no more. We got our pay inside of 30 days and it was a cash proposition to us because all we had to do was to deliver at the Government corral at Omaha on the Union Pacific line, and all our bills were checks at once. We knew as soon as the docu- ments could go through the vouchers would be apjDroved and we had our money. And we bid lower. Now, I believe it is a good thing, as the hearings show, that you can buy clothing probably a^ a less market in New York than theybuy other clothmg. I know that it is true that on the streets of Washington to-day there is as much Chicago clothing sold as there is New York clothing. Why ? The center of trade has gone to the West. i, x • Now, take agricultural implements m my town. JNo merchant in Nebraska, or west of the Missouri River, or west of Kansas City, would think of buying agricultural implements east of them. Senator Gronna. If you will allow an interruption there; you know, of course that so far as agricultural implements are concerned the 388 INDIAN APPEOPllIATION BILL. International Harvester Trust has an absolute monopoly of that. They make the prices all over the United States. Mr. LoBECK. That is true, but when I ship— if the merchant wants an assorted carload or wants one plow, he does not send to the man west of the Missouri River. He does not send to Chicago what he sends to St. Paul; or if it is Minneapolis in the north, he sends to Omaha or the Missouri River; or sends to Kansas City, if it is for the south; he mil not go and pay the same to locals. The large implement concerns of this country, the manufacturers, have their distributing stations nearest to the point of destination, because they ship their implements in car lots to that point and then they are distributed. A firm in my town which has sold to the Indians* and has sold to the Government — a concern that does nearly $10,000,000 of business a year — told me this story. They bought baskets from the Indians, buying their baskets by the car. They got a low rate in Omaha. What is true there was just as true at Kansas City or Chicago, and they bid low. Why? Because they knew how many they would sell the Government tfiat year. But did they ship them out in one quantity ? No. As the Indian warehouses got then orders there they went out in twelfths, quarters, thirds, and half dozens. They could not have bid on those goods within 25 per cent. They would have had to take the retail price for which they would get the lowest jobbing price that is made on baskets in this country. Then there is the matter of soaps. You bid for a large amount of soaps. You get bids from all over the country. There is no label on them; they have to stand the chemical test, and then if this soap, as it is sold to the Government, stands that test they can deliver it, but where wiU the test be ? Out at some agency. It is t'^sted at the points of dehvery. It is the quickness in getting return of the money for the merchandise that you are seDing that enables you to sell goods cheap. What is true in the country store which sells on credit is true where a man sells for cash. He can sell for a lower price, and it enables these men who bid — if they get the bid for a large amount of goods — it h?lps him buy in larger quantities and he can bid lower. Senator Gronna. Supposing you bought soap in the markets of Chicago, the Chicago soap manufactur:r would give a lower price than the St. Paul manufacturer. Mr. LoBECK. I do not understand you. Senator Gronna. Suppose you want to buy a carload of soap in the markets of Chicago; the manufactur-r is enabhd to give a lower price in the city of Chicago than the St. Paul manufacturer. Now, will it be taken into consideration th3 item of freight, which from Chicago to St. Paul the ch'^aprst freight rat? is 21 cents a hundred — will that be taken into consid ration; that is, wh^re those goods are to be dis- tributed, undir the syst^^m you propose? Mr. LoBECK. The Chicago soap man can sell f. o. b. in St. Paul, but the St. Paul manufacturer, while he can sell f. o. b. in Chicago, he would have to pay the freight down there. It woulel work both, ways. Senator Gronna. I was simply asking: Supposing the Indian Bureau wants a carload of soap to go to White Earth or to North Dakota, the bureau receives a bid from St. Paul and from Chicago. The Chicago soap manufacturer outbids the St. Paul manufacturer. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 389 Now, my question is this: Will the question of freight rates be taken into consideration ? Mr. LoBECK. It ought to be considered, and is, because in the hearings it shows that freight rates are considered in selling flour and other lines of merchandise. The hearings are pretty thorough on the point that the freight rates are considered in the matter of bids, and ought to be. So far as inspection is concerned, gentlemen, you have inspection to-day. The man who bids and sells the goods knows that within a reasonable time he will get his pay. I know of an instance where 700,000 bags of sugar were bid on in Chicago by an Omaha merchant where his profit would be 7 cen^s per bag. He had a two days' option in New Orleans on that sugar. If they had notified him of the bid within 48 hours that he had got it and sugar had gone up 10 cents, he would have lost 3 cents. Senator Lane. And if it had gone down, he would have made? Mr. LoBECK. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. That works both ways. Mr. LoBECK. I might state, what was not quite brought out, for instance, that the Omaha warehouse handled 55,220 shipments. Senator Gronna. Can you tell us to what point the shipments w^ere made '(■ Mr. LoBECK. They were made in every direction, wherever the man comes from. Senator Hitchcock. I understand the practices at the warehouse which can ship the cheapest, ship to the points involved. That is under the control of the Indian Bureau completely. I know of some cases where shipments have been made from the Omaha warehouse to eastern points, although for the most part they go from Omaha to points in the West. The freight rate is always taken into account, and I understand this has been a very large saving under the manage- ment of the Indian Bureau. Mr. LoBECK. That is, the freight rate is lower. Senator Gronna. Would you buy a dozen steers and have them shipped to Omaha and shipped back again to North Dakota? Mr. LoBECK. No, sir; that would not be sensible. That does not come under the head of merchandise. They would probably go to some corral up there. Senator Gronna. I know where they go, as a rule. I have been there for 25 years, and I think I know where they go. Mr. LoBECK. This is only on merchandise. When shipments are made that have been handled, the cost of handling is $ . The cost of inspection and all is $62,000. That is less than it is at whole- sale. It costs about 10 per cent to do business. Senator Gronna. When I asked you the question about a thousand steers, I did not mean to ship -the steers ahve. I know, as a matter of fact, that a great deal of meat sold to the Indians is dressed beef; I know that has been done, but my question was this : Would you advise the shipment of beef that was bought in North Dakota, shipped to Omaha, and then shipped back as dressed beef ? Mr. LoBECK. The way we handle the beef situation is to ship cattle to the large packing centers— the packing center, for instance, at Omaha. That ships the wide world over. It is the greatest packing center in the country, and you have Government inspection on every 390 INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. particle or portion of the beef that you would not have out on the prairies of North Dakota. Now, if they could get fresh beef, just as the beef was killed, it would probably suit the Indians. You and I used to get it that way, but to-day we get our beef through packing houses, and it is under the rigid inspection of the Government. I thank you, gentlemen. STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD BARTHOLDT, A REPRESENT- ATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MISSOURI. Mr. Bartholdt. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, we expected three^ representative business men from St. Louis to speak on behalf of the contuiuance of the warehouses. It may be that they have been intercepted because of the executive session of the Senate. I merely wish to occupy your time for a few moments. It may seem strange to you that we members of the House should come to you after we have had our day in court in the other body. I am frank to say that I believe the House has made a mistake in aboUsh- ing the warehouses. There were only 40 members present out of the 400 when the matter was up, and it was not sufficiently discussed and not thoroughly understood, and that is the reason we feel obliged to come to you so that justice may be done. In case these warehouses are aboUshed you will have to resort to the system which has been in vogue before, a system which has given no satisfaction, which has opened the door to graft and which resulted in scandals that at one time were ventilated on the floor of the Senate and House of Representatives. I do not say that graft will result now, but you certainly open the door for graft if you intrust the purchasing agents with the purchase of all those goods necessary for the Indians. It has been stated by those in authority that even if the Indian warehouse at St. Louis were abolished, that the Indian merchants would have just as much opportunity to sell their goods to the Gov- ernment for the use of the Indians as under the present system. If that is true, I can not be accused of speaking for them. But I be- lieve the present system is so satisfactory that it should not be changed. There is no question, and I believe the Commissioner of Indian Affairs will bear me out, that even if you abolish the ware- houses a storehouse would have to be maintained at St. Louis any- way, because you can not buy large quantities of goods under con- tract and then sell large quantities direct to the agencies. You must store them somewhere for the purpose of drawing upon those stores as the goods may be needed in the different agencies, and if I may use the splendid object lesson which Senator Hitchcock has provided here, a glance at that map will show you the necessity of maintaining a warehouse at St. Louis. Senator Robinson. May I interrupt you ? Mr. Bartholdt. Certainly. Senator Robinson. Does he show the necessity of maintaining a warehouse at New York ? Mr. Bartholdt. No, sir; I do not wish to be understood a , speaking against any warehouse INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. 391 Senator Robinson. I understand that, but I wonder upon what theory a warehouse is maintained in New York, since it is, from that demonstration map that you use there, remote from any Indian agency or any place where goods can be used. Mr. Bartholdt. It is true, however, that in some Hnes you can probably purchase cheaper in New York — for instance, clothing, dry goods, etc. St. Louis leads in a number of lines — hardware, tobacco, drugs, shoes, and all things needed for the Indians. We can sell those cheaper to the Government than any other city and there we have the warehouse maintained at very small expense. If you abohsh the warehouse, you would have to continue it as a store- . house anyway, so that no saving will be achieved if you abolish it as as warehouse: and you have the proper inspection of the goods, inspectors being on the ground, and people who are bidding on these particular lines know that samples will be examined at St. Louis so that no transportation will be necessary; and second, the Govern- ment gets the benefit of the transportation charges that otherwise would nave to be made So, from every viewpoint, gentlemen, it is by far the most satis- factory system, and I hope that this committee can see its way clear to continuing the present system for the reasons stated, and at any rate, not to resort to the old objectionable system unless you have a thorough investigation first. Senator Townsend. Did you present this case before the Com- mittee on Indian Affairs in the House ? Mr. Bartholdt. No, sir; I did not, because my understanding was at that time that the Committee on Indian Affairs of the House was favorable to the continuation of the warehouse, but when finally the report came in they came with that report. So that our only chance was to fight it on the floor, and as I said before^ there were only between 35 and 40 members present when it was adopted. I will be glad to answer any further questions. Senator Fall. iVould like to ask Commissioner Meritt what is the necessity for legislation on this subject? Is there any law com- pelling you to keep up one, two, three, or four, or a dozen warehouses, or do you simply nave the privilege of doing what you waat to ? Mr. Meritt. As I stated in the opening of this discussion, in our estimates we did not submit any legislation on this subject. Senator Fall. What is the law now ? Mr. Meritt. We simply submitted the usual language requestmg an appropriation of $325,000 for this work. Senator Fall. It does not compel you to keep warehouses m Omaha or in New York? Mr. Meritt. The existing law does not requu-e us to mamtam five warehouses. . i i i ^ u u Senator Fall. The House just simply provided that you should not maintain any at all out of this fund ? "^Jiv I^ERITT JL es SIT. Senator Fall. If 'these words were stricken out and the law should remain just as it is now, you could maintain two, or four, or a dozen ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. (Mr. Bartholdt was thereupon excused.) 392 INDIAN APPKOPKIATION BILL. STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM L. IGOE, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MISSOURI. Mr. Igoe. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I just want to say a word. There has been a suggestion made here as to the reason this matter was not presented to the committee of the House. The first intimation we had of it was when the bill came up on the floor, and in the examination of the hearings before the com- mittee, if you will look over the House proceedings, you will observe there that the recommendation of the department was that if a pro- . vision was inserted in the bill that no part of this appropriation^ should be used for the maintenance of more than two warehouses that that would be satisfactory to the department: but nowhere in the hearings before the House will be found any statement by any official of the department that they desired the abolishment of all of these warehouses. When the matter came up on the floor of the House, I offered an amendment striking out the proviso. That was defeated, and Mr. Carter, of Oklahoma, a member of the Committee on Indian Affairs of the House, offered an amendment in line with the suggestion from the department that a proviso be inserted that not more than two permanent warehouses should be maintained, and that aniendment was defeated. The business men of the cit}' of St. Louis are interested, of course, in the maintenance of that warehouse there. For my part, and I thiiik I can speak for the other representatives from the city of St. Loui-i — and i think all the other cities- if this system is not economical j. do not belieA^^ any man would urge it, but my knowledge of the matter is gained largely from the testimoin- by the officials and ex])erts of the department given before the House committee. There was the matter of bidding, in the first place, and the freight charges, as suggested by the Senator, and administration inspection, and a number of other things. I am not here to make a plea partii^ularly for the city of St. Louis, but I believe from the statements that ha\ e been made by the department to the committee of the House, followed by the amendment offered by a member of that committee on the floor of the House, that it is pretty conclusively shown that it is wise and even necessary that the departm.ent should have, the right to mamtain these warehouses if, m the judgment of the officials, the> should be maintained. Now, the result of the proviso, as inserted by the House, is simply this, that you can not maintain even a temporary warehouse and they say in their testimony they will maintain two warehouses anyhow, even if the other warehouses are abolished. That is all I have to say. Senator Fall. Mr. Chairman, I am com.pelled to leave the com- mittee, but i w^ant to suggest that as far as 1 am concerned, it strikes me that if this lang-uage which is used by the House committee is stricken out, then of course we do not i"un up against any point of Order. If we strike out and msert, as has been suggested, it would be subject to a point of order. If we strike it out ancl the House committee wants to insist upon putting it back in conference, then the matter can be dealt with there. I would suggest that we just leave the law as it stands, striking it out here. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 393 Thi' Chairman. Your suggestion is that we strike out the House provision ? Senator Fall. Yes; the House provision. Senator Gronna. I was going to ask Mr. Meritt if the Indian Bureau has a purchasing agent who is considered an expert in the methods of purchasing goods ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, su"; we have also inspectors who are considered experts along their respective lines of inspection. Senator Robinson. How many of them are employed ? Mr. Meritt. I should say there are from 12 to 15, but they are not permanently employed. They are irregular employees. Mr. Fry is the expert in this particular line of work for the Indian Bureau, and he can answer any detailed questions that the committee might wish to ask. STATEMENT OF WALTER FRY, ESQ., ASSISTANT CHIEF, BUREAU OF INDIAN AFFAIRS. Mr. Fry. Mr. Chairman, do any of the members of the committee want to ask any questions, to begin with? The Chairman. I would like to ask you to state for the record what your particular duties are ? Mr. Fry. My particular duties are to handle the purchasing system of the Indian Service. The Chairman. How long have you been engaged in such work ? Mr. Fry. I was connected with the transportation end of it for about 10 years; in charge of that branch about 4 years. Incidentally, during those years I was closely connected with the purchasing end, and for the last four years I have been in charge of that work. Senator Robinson. If these warehouses were all abolished, how would it be handled, do you know? Mr. Fry. If all the warehouses were abolished, we would have to go back to what is called the open-market method of purchasing and shipping, depending on such inspection as we might be able to get at the factories or at destination. Senator Robinson. Would it be necessary to have storehouses, in the nature of warehouses, to deposit your goods in, or would you buy them as needed ? Mr. Fry. It would be highly necessary to good administration that we should have what might be called the shipping stations, similar to the present warehouses, at places where we could receive goods and hoM them long enough to inspect them and ship them out. Except in rare instances and on comparatively insignificant quantities, how- ever, our goods are not stored for any great length of time in these Wf\ rehoimes Senator Robinson. When a purchase is to be made, just what process do you go through? . - ,. -i ^ Mr Fry. On individual purchases we requu-e the supermtendent in the field, who is the disbursmg officer, to obtain proposals from two of the warehouses, and also locally, and submit them to the Indian Office with his request to make the purchases. , . -, Senator Robinson. Do you have many cases where the goods furnished do not conform to the samples presented and upon which the goods were bought ? . 394 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Fry. The open market purchases, as we call them, are not purchased, as a rule, according to the sample. Senator Robinson. I am not asking about the open market now. Mr. Fry. Going bac-v to the contract suppHes, then, the cases are not so many, comparatively speaking. Senator Robinson. Do you know how many you had last year that you were compelled to demand redress in? Mr. Fry. No; I do not know all of those. There were undoubtedly some minor objections that we would not hear of. The warehouse superintendents take care of those, but there have been probably half a dozen this fiscal year where the dehveries did not conform tg sample for one reason or another. Senator Robinson. How many were there the year before this last year? Mr. Fry. Are you speaking of the last year or the present year? Our shipping season for this 3^ear is over. Senator Robinson. Take, for instance, the year preceding of Mr. Sells's admiFiistration. How many of those cases occurred ? Mr. Fry. Not ver\^ many. They were so small in number as hardly to make an impression on us. Senator Robinson. How do you know, or have you been in the habit of knomng, that goods furnished do conform to the standards set up b}^ samples ? Mr. Fry. We have inspectors employed for the purpose of seeing to that very thing, and they work under the jurisdiction, or under the supervision rather, of the warehouse superintendeat, who is our rep- resentative on the ground there, and the smaller matters heretofore they have been handUng themselves without reporting them to the ofiice. Senator Robinson. Just how large does the matter have to be before it would come to your attention ? Mr. Fry. It is simply a matter of substitution — I mean where an article is found not to be in conformity with the sample and must be replaced — the warehouse superintendent sees that it is done. If there is a controversy, then it is referred to us. Senator Robinson. You had cases this year where Commissioner Sells discovered that there had been apparent fraud practiced in con- nection with the furnishing of harness — not being according to sam- ple. What warehouse did that occur in ? Mr. Fry. That was not exactly a fraud. Senator Robinson. The goods that they furnished did not con- form to the samples. Now I call that a fraud. If a man sold goods to the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the bureau discovered that he had sold goods not according to a certain sample, and furn- ished them goods that were not up to the standard of the sample, I would call that a fraud. Of course it might possibly be unin- tentional, but it would not probably be; would it? IVlr. Fry. No, sir. Senator Robinson. In any event, the commission detected that case and corrected that, and made them come up to the standard. Mr. Fry. Yes, sir. You will find in practically every shipment of harness straps that in parts are defective. The contractors claim that they were unnoticed, but their attention is called to- it and we make them replace those parts. INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. 395 Commissioner Sells. Tell him the story of that purchase. Senator Robinson. It was not in the case he has mentioned, the case of the defective strap. That was the case, if I am correctly informed, where there were certain sales that did not conform farily to the samples, that they had sold the Government. I am not so much interested to go to the details of that particular case. I am not particularly interested in that particular case. I am satisfied that that was done, and I am also satisfied that it is being corrected wherever it can be. But what I want to know it just what you do, as the head of that department, and what have you been in the habit of doing, in order to know whether your inspectors do their duty or not ? If your inspectors do not have sufficient information, it probably never would come to your attention, would it? Mr. Fry. No, sir. Senator Robinson. It would have to be caught first by the inspector, and now, how do you know ? ]\Ir. Fry. Through the superintendent of the warehouse. Senator Robinson. What do you do, or what have you been in the habit of doing, in order to see that these inspections are thoror.gh and complete ? Mr. Fry. We have been compelled to rely upon the superintendent of the warehouse to see that the inspector does his duty. Senator Robinson. And there have not been many cases where there have been differences between the samples or material differ- ences between the samples and the goods ? Mr. Fry. No, sir; and I think in this particular case — that was what I was trying to get a line on from Commissioner Sells — in this particular case the harness was not a delivery under contract, but a proposed purchase. The samples were all displayed to the inspector, and he made his choice and picked out a certain harness. The issue was raised by the superintendent of the Chicago warehouse, he say- ing he did not believe that the harness picked out was the best harness of the lot, price and quality considered. He referred the matter to the office, which, as I say, is the usual custom in those cases. Commissioner Sells. Go ahead and tell the whole story. Mr. Fry. The matter was brought up to the office and taken up to the commissioner, and a new inspector was appointed and sent to Chicago for the purpose of making a reexamination of those samples of harness to see if tne first award was correct. The second inspector differed from the first inspector. Commissioner Sells. How much ? Mr. Fry. The second inspector showed it as No. 4 on the list, placing three other samples ahead of the harness first chosen. Senator Robinson. Clearly that was what might be called ineffi- cient or dishonest inspection. Mr. Fry. To a certain extent. Senator Robinson. That difference could not have existed unless the inspector who made it was either dishonest or inefficient. Commissioner Sells. So much so that in any event that com- missioner has reheved that man from further service. Senator Robinson. If the warehouses were all abolished, how would the system of inspection be handled ? Would it be more con- 396 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. < venient to see that the standard of goods procured was according to samples, and that the service was efficient? Mr. Fry. I should say not, because we would have no representa- tive other than the inspector whom we might pick to make an in- spection. Senator Robinson. You have an agent, anyhow? Mr. Fry. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. And the superintendent of the warehouse is an inspector, too? Mr. Fry. Yes, sir. I think if I might be permitted now to make a little explanation to get thoroughly before the Senators and others as to the two classifications of purchasing that we make, it might be well. In the first place, every superintendent in the field, or super- intendent of school or reservation, submits annually a blank called an estimate of goods and supplies on which he sets out for the next fiscal year what he thinks he will need in the way of staple articles. Now, they include groceries, dry goods, underwear, etc., clothing, notions, boots, shoes, crockery, furniture, harness, leather, agricul- tural implements, wagons, paints and oils, tinware, hardware, medi- cal supplies, school supplies — a miscellaneous list. All of those are submitted in this one blank, and those estimates are brought together and scheduled, and the total of each item is ascertained. Those details are carried into blanks which are distributed for the purpose of getting bids on the supplies. There are about 3,000 articles enumerated. Senator Robinson. I would like to ask the commissioner, or the assistant commissioner, a question. Do I understand you correctly that you do not wish this House item to be retained? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; we think the House item should be omitted, and if there is to be any legislation on the subject that it shall read practically as follows Senator Robinson. You read it a while ago. What I want to know is, if we strike out the House item, that will leave the law as it is now, and under that law you have the power, as I understand it, to do what you want to about it. You can either maintain them or not maintain them. You may pursue whatever policy you want to pursue. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. Mr. Chairman, I believe there is a motion pending. Unless some one wants to ask some questions, I will with- draw that motion of Senator Fall's. He asked to be recorded in favor of it. Senator Townsend. I was wondering if anybody w^ho has views in opposition to this wants to be heard on it. Senator Robinson. I would like to hear brief statements of the reasons for this House provision. There has been nothing presented liere to justify it. The Chairman. There are a number of gentlemen from New York who want to be heard. Senator Robinson. They want to be heard in opposition to the House item. I do not want to hear anything more and I do not, think Senator Townsend does. Senator Townsend. I want to know if there is anybody who is •opposed to the warehouse system? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 397 The Chairman. Is there anyone present who wants to oppose the warehouse system, or argue in favor of the retention of the House provision ? Senator Gronna. I simply want to say, Mr. Chairman, that I have not had the time to examine this House provision, but it strikes me that it is important. I suppose these goods are bought for the different schools, the different Indian schools, are they not'^ My candid belief is that the money can be saved by buying the goods as near home as possible.' As I understand the assistant commissioner, it is proposed to have only two places where these goods will l:c pur- chased in the future. It seems to me that is an economic mistake. Commissioner Sells. You have not it entirely correct, Senator. Mr. Meritt. It is not intended to have only two places where goods may be purchased. Any city or town in the United States may submit bids regarding the purchase of goods for the Indian Service. It is intended by the office simply to maintain two permanent ware- houses, and in addition to that maintain such temporary warehouses as may be required to met the needs of the service. Senator Gronna. Or, in other words, you want two places where you will have these goods shipped and stored ; is that the idea '^ Mr. Meritt. I will ask Mr. Walter Fry to explain any details you may want to know about this. Mr. Fry. The idea is — the story I started to tell you a few moinonts ago led up to that — that during the first four or five months of each fiscal year the supplies we buy under contract are delivered. We advertise for them in big quantities where practicable, to get better prices, and as far as possible make them fill all the requirements of ^the schools and agencies for the year. The deliveries are concentrated at these warehouses. They are inspected there and shipped. That gets the bulk of the supplies out of the way for the year. There are five warehouses at present. Instead oi maintaining permanent warehouses the year around in these five cities that have been named, we think it more economical to maintain only two permanent ware- houses to handle the purchases that must be made from time to time, after the big contract season is over, closing the three others. Senator Gronna. Let us go back to the question of the purc^hase of this harness. You bought a thousand pairs of harness ? Mr. Fry. Yes, sir. Senator Gronna. Farm harness, I suppose it is ? Mr. Fry. Yes, sir. Senator Gronna. WTiere did you buy those harnesses ? Mr. Fry. They were bought and delivered in Omaha. Senator Gronna. Where did you ship them to? Mr. Fry. That particular lot was shipped to the Sioux Reserva- tion for the allottees there. They were all shipped to one place and then shipped from there to the Sioux Reservation. Senator Gronna. They were not shipped to the warehouses at all, but they were simply distributed from Chicago ? Mr. Fry. From Omaha; yes, sir. One warehouse handled it. Senator Gronna. If you have two warehouses and you bought a thousand pairs of harness, do you propose to ship all those harnesses to one particular warehouse and then reship them? Is that the idea? 398 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Fry. Yes; we would have competitive bids, and we would accept the best bid, price and freight considered, and quality ako. That is the most advantageous, and in that connection the bidder would state where he would deliver. This would have to be taken into consideration in making the award, and if it were nearer one warehouse or more convenient and practicable for one warehouse to handle that would be the one designated to receive and ship. Senator Gronna. I can clearly see where you can figure it out and ship all the goods to one point, but I can not see how you can figure it out if you buy a large quantity of goods with the idea of distribut- ing them over the entire country. I can not understand how you figure that out. ^Mr. Fry. The price would be on the lot. You see, we get a bid oft the thousand sets of harness, and we take that order as a whole. The bidder specifies the place of delivery. We have no control over that. In this particular case Perkins-Canipbell, of Cincinnati, specified Chicago. The other man specified (Jmaha, as I recall. The first award was made on the Chicago dehvery, and the samples, by the way, were at Chicago. The second award was made at Chicago to the Omaha man, and, as I recall it, the harness was dehvered finally in the Omaha warehouse. Senator Gronna. Yes; but you can not ship them all to one railroad station in the final distribution? Mr. Fry. No. Senator Gronna. You must ship them to different stations. Do you ship them by local freight ? Mr. Fry. Yes. The thousand sets would be split up, and, say 150 would go from the Omaha warehouse to Rosebud. The harnesses would be delivered in the warehouse by the contractor, and would be inspected there, then they would be broken up into lots, and one lot shipped to Rosebud, one to Fine Ridge, one to Lower Brule, and so on. Senator Gronna. Suppose you buy 1,000 sets of harness in New York, and supposing we change the law so that you only have two warehouses, one in Chicago and one in New York, we will say, and the western part of the United States wants a lot of harness, you would have to store those in Chicago or in New York, would you not ? Mr. Fry. Yes, sir. Senator Gronna. Then, you would want to redistribute them locally from the extreme portions of the United States; is that the idea? Mr. Fry. If the New York price happened to be better, taking the freight into consideration to Chicago, we would accept delivery in New York and distribute from there. I think your point can be ex- plained by using San Francisco and Chicago as examples. Senator Gronna. We will not use that. Supposing you get a bid from St. Paul or Duluth on these harnesses, why would it not be economy to have a warehouse in St. Paul or Duluth and store those harnesses there instead of shipping them to Chicago and then ship- ping them back again to St. Paul ? Mr. Fry. The chances are that it would be. St. Paul would be a good distributing center. St. Paul on the north and Kansas City on the south would be good distributing centers. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 399 -Senator Gronna. How could you do that when you only have two warehouses— one in Chicago and one in New York? Mr. Fry. In the case of delivery at St. Paul, if we accepted that, we would have the Quartermaster's Department hancJlc that for us. The quartermaster handles both the inspection and shipping. Sena.tor Gronna. I am simply taking your own proposition that you only want two warehouses. Mr. Fry. Two permanent warehouses. During the season when harness and that kind of goods is shipped mainlv we would probably have the five warehouses, and the most of that stuff would be gotten out of the way during the four or Hyq. months during which those warehouses were in existence . Kepresentative Lobeck. How much rent would the department save out of the $8,000 you pav now? Mr. Fry. Out of the entire amount, if ^^o had a temporary ware- house for four months, 1 estimate we would save about 50 per cent of the rent. We know it would cost us more to rent a temporary ware- house for four m.onths in proportion than it would the whole year. Senator Page. Are there not some classes of goods where the freight constitutes such a large percentage of the cost that you can not afford to make two shipments ? Do you not want to ship direct from the factory to theplace where they are consumed ? :Mr. Fry. We do that. Senator Page. What articles do you do that with ? Mr. Fry. Wagons. Wagons are purchased from the various fac- tories as a rule and shipped direct from there. They do not enter the warehouse. Coal is another article that does not go into the ware- house. And flour, also. Senator Page. Pork and beef ? All heavy goods can be better shipped direct from the parties where you purchase them ? Mr. Fry. Beef is not handled through the warehouse at all ; it is all bought delivered at the school or agency on account of the refriger- ator service and other facilities that the contractors have. In fact, it is found to be better to buy that way than to buy in the cities and ship it out ourselves. Senator Page. You do not, as a matter of fact, use much locally killed beef at local points ? Mr. Fry. In some points we do. The big packers can not get into some of our agencies. They have no refrigerator service. Senator Page. I know that in the East, in my own State, Vermont, where we raise more or less cattle, it is the fact that the cattle are purchased by the cattle dealers and taken to Boston and sold there, and we buy our beef through Swift and Armour in the West. It occurs to me that perhaps you do that. That is, the bulk of your* beef may be bought from the large packing houses rather than bought locally?' Mr. Fry. That is correct. The larger part of it is bought from the packers. / Senator Gronna. Supposing beef is worth 3 cents on the hoof, how cheap must you buy it ? What do you figure you have got to buy it for ? I mean, the whole carcass. What do you pay for it by the carcass in comparison with buying it at 3 cents per pound on the hoof ? 400 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Fry. We estimate about 25 per cent increase. We do not go up against that proposition except in a general way, because we bu}' either the beef on the hoof or net beef, in accordance with the way- it can be handled at the school or agency. Senator Gronna. It seems to me that should be the only basis you ought to go on, whatever the beef is worth on the hoof. You do not mean to say that you only add 25 per cent to the price of the beef on the hoof ? Mr. Fry. In getting at it — that has been the practice, to add about 2f) rer cent. Senator Gronna. Take a steer that weighs 1,000 pounds: I mean a steer fit for the block. We figure that there is 50 per cent waste. Do you buy your meat on that basis ? Mr. Fry. We require about 650, 700, and 750 pounds, according to the locality. Senator Gronna. You mean according to how the steer ha:, been fed ? That is really what you mean, is it not ? Mr. Fry. We differentiate as to the locality Senator Gronna. This may seem to be unimportant, but it is not unimportant, because the farmers complain they do not get anything for their product on the hoof, whicn I knOw they do not, and the consumer, the children in the Indian schools who are the consumers, ave paying exorbitant prices when it comes back again from the packing houses. And for that reason I want to know whether or not you know your business. If you figure that beef on the hoof should have shrinkage of 15 per cent, I want to say to you that your figures a:^e away off, and can not be substantiated by any authority. If you base your price on that, and that is the only thing you can base your price on Mr. Fry. No, sir; we do not have to figure that at all. Senator Robinson. How do you buy your beef ? Mr. Fry. Some of our agencies and schools — particularly agen- cies — call for beef on the hoof and the others dressed beef. So we rarely run up against the buying the two at the one place. Senator Eobinson. Where you buy the dressed beef you buy it by the pound, do you not ? Mr. Fry. Yes. Senator Robinson. And there would be no question there as to what the relation between net and gross beef was ? Mr. Fry. We have to buy it on the quotations we receive anyway, unless they are prohibitive. Then, of course, we would not make any awards. Senator Robinson. When you buy beef on the hoof, how is that ' bought ? Mr. Fry. That is bought by weight — by the hundred. Senator Robinson. That is, the gross weight? You do not buy it dressed ? Mr. Fry. No, sir. Senator Robinson. So it makes no difference so far as your trans- actions are concerned what a steer will weigh when he is dressed or what he will weigh when undressed ? Mr. Fry. Except that our specifications require that a stper must dress down a certain percentage of its gross weight. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. , 401 Senator Robinson. That is intended to get good beef? That is the object of that? It does not govern you when you go to pay for the beef ? Mr. Fry. No, sir. Senator Robinson. And beef which is in good condition is assumed to weigh a certain amount when dressed if it weighs a certain amount on the hoof, and if it does not weigh that you believe it is not in good condition ? Mr. Fry. Yes, sir; and we would reject the deHvery or have it out with the contractor afterwards. Senator Gronna. As I understand, Mr. Fry, very little beef is bought on the hoof. You buy mostly dressed beef ? Mr. Fry. For the schools — for the reservations on the hoof. Senator Gronna. Supposing the school is 1,000 miles away from the packing house, would you still buy the dressed beef ? Mr. Fry. If in competitive bidding the packers' price were better than any other price that we could get, and a reasonable price, we would do that. Senator Gronna. That comes right back to my question. It does show that the price per pound does make a difference. My statement was this : That the price per pound on the hoof is the only basis you can go by so far as the country is concerned. Supposing the Indians on Fort Totten, Devils Lake, or at Bismarck, or at Wahpeton can buy a corn-fed steer weighing 1,000 pounds, at 3 cents a pound;. that is a good many miles away from the packing house — it is 800 miles from Chicago. That ought to be taken into consideration. Senator Robinson. Certainly, in determining whether you would buy beef on the hoof to use or buy dressed beef and ship it out there. Mr. Fry. There is another feature which comes in, and that is whether or not the school or the reservation you are buying for has the facilities for killing and dressing the beef. In some cases we are compelled to buy the dressed beef because there are no facilities for handling it otherwise. The reservations have those facilities, speak- ing for the agency end of it. The schools do not. A great many of our schools could not handle beef on the hoof. Commissioner Sells. Is it your judgment that we should have them ? Mr. Fry. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. What facilities are required ? Mr. Fry. A slaughterhouse and employees to handle it. Senator Robinson. You would not want to establish a slaughter- house and have employees to handle it except upon due considera- tion of its relation with the whole subject? Commissioner Sells. And the quantity consumed. Senator Robinson. That is what I mean — the quantity consumed. If the quantity was not sufficient to warrant it might occasion a large increase in the expenses, would it not ? Mr. Fry. It might eat up more than the difference between the market price of the beef on the hoof and the net beef price. Senator Page. Is it not true that the packing house can make the hide worth 3 or 4 cents a pound more than the hide taken off at your schools ? Mr. Fry. Yes, sir. , 39746— PT 1—14 26 402 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. Senator Page. Is it not true they save from the waste products almost as much, and perhaps quite enough, to pay for the ireigrit 500 miles to the packing house, and from the packing house back to the country? . t j 4- j Mr. Fry. I do not know how much they save, but 1 understand there is a great deal of waste in the manner in which the hides are taken from the animals on the reservations. We have that subject up in the office now. Senator Lane. In buying dressed beef, do you buy equal parts, fore and hind quarters? Mr. Fry. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. About how much do you pay for it ? • Mr. Fry. The prices vary according to the location. Take dressed beef at Albuquerque School, we pay $8.40 a hundred for it. Senator Lane. What did you pay in the East last year? Mr. Fry. Well, the East would be Cherokee. We have only two schools in the East. Mount Pleasant is the most eastern* point that I find. There it is $9.80. Senator Lane. I want to ask you another question. You very nearly always have a farmer at these Indian schools, do you not ? Mr. Fry. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. It is a very poor farmer who can not do your butch- ering for you without having to hire a butcher. Most any farmer is capable of butchering, is he not ? Mr. Fry. One woiud suppose so. Senator Lane. If he could not do that you ought to get another one. Mr. Fry. I think if we put them to butchering we would find very many who could not. Senator Lane. You will find many good practical farmers who can do that. I know in some places, in pubUc institutions, they do that. Senator Robinson. That would be a useful work to put those farmers at. Senator Lane. It ought to be tried. The only trouble around the schools is to keep the slaughtering sanitary. Mr. Fry. They have to care for the live stock before they are butch- ered, and they might find themselves handicapped there to some extent. Senator Lane. I think they could buy them in the vicinity of the schools and then have them driven in as they needed meat, if they wanted to do it. Mr. Fry. It has not been so. They might do it, but the price would be larger than what we have been paying for it. Senator Lane. That is astonishing to me. Mr. Fry. It was pretty hard to get any kind of a decent price on beef last year. Senator Lane. What do you pay for your beef on the hoof now^ Mr. Fry. I will have to look tnat up. Senator Page. Senator Lane, while he is looking that up I want to say to you that as a matter of fact two-thirds of all the beef eaten at points within three or four hundred miles from the Waltham abattoirs, near Boston, is beef brought from Chicago or some western abattoir, whereas all our cattle, or the greater part of our cattle, are sold to go to the abattoir. In other words, instead of selling meat to eat right there, we sell the cattle on the hoof and buy the beef from Chicago. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 40 B Senator Lane. And pay the freight both ways ? Senator Page. Pay the freight both ways. Whv it is done I do not know. I suppose it must be done to carry out the economic theories of business. I knew we would not buy Western beef unless it were best to buy it. I know out butchers would not sell Western beef unless they could get it cheaper than Eastern beef. Senator Lane. It is not altogether that. It is a fact that the butcher who is depending on his regular supply from the wholesaler is n<^t allowed to go out and pick up cattle and butcher them and sell them in his shop, for the reason that the packers will refuse him meat and shut down on him when he is short. They make that discrimination against him. That is true. Once in a while you will find an indepBndent butcher who does that. But most of the busi- ness is well under the control of the big packing interests. Mr. Fry. The cost of gross beef at Crow Creek School was $6.50. Senator Lane. On the hoof ? Mr. Fry. Yes. At Jicarilia Agency, in New Mexico, $6.85. On the Rosebud we paid $8.25. Senator Gronna. What did you pay in North Dakota? Mr. Fry. There is no No/th Dakota point in here for gross beef. At Tongue River, Mont., we paid $5.98, and Fort Belknap, in Mon- tana, $6.90. Senator Robinson. Question, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. The question is on the motion of Senator Townsend. May I ask the Board of Indian Commission- ers this: I understand one of their duties is to look into supplies. Have you any reconunendations to make or anything to say aoout these warehouses ? Ml'. Vaux. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, we have taken some pains to get certain data that we thought would be of interest in connection with this affair, which is entirely in line, however, with what you have already heard. And I do not want to take up the time of the committee with it unless you wish to hear from us. Senator Townsend. I do not, unless you have something new on the subject. Mr. Vaux. I have one or two points that possibly have not been brought out possibly quite as strongly as they might, which will interest you. There are questions which come up in regard to open- market purchases, in addition to those that are made under the gen- eral contracts for supplies where the warehouses and the warehouse superintendents do a great deal of purchasing, and very much to the advantage of the service, in accordance with the figures, some of which we have gotten together. The reasons for this are, of course, that some if not all of these warehouses are located at important points which are centers for particular classes of goods, and hence it is pos- sible to get prices which are very much better than local prices in the neighborhoods where the schools or reservations may be. Without cumbering you with details, just to take two items that we found out withui a few days. The superintendent at the Rapid City school, S. Dak., was desirous of purchasing agricultural implements, a disk drill with grass-seed attachment, a Deere Ajax steel lever harrow, in thr-ee sections, a John Deere two-horse shovel cultivator, and Deere sulky, 6-inch quick detachable share plow. The best prices he could get from local dealers on that lot of machinery at the time 404 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. when this matter came up — we have a copy of the letter dated Feb- ruary 4, 1914— on that, was $230.05. After applying to the Indian warehouse at Nebraska the same articles were purchased f. o. b. Kapid City, for $178.57, showing a net saving of $51.48 on a purchase of fcss than $180. Senator Gronna. Let me ask you : Is that the same class of goods — the same name ? Mr. Vaux. They have the same name. Senator Page. Identical. Mr. Vaux. They were supposed to be identical. Representative Lobeck. Let me ask you: Did the freight have anything to do with that difference ? Mr.' Vaux. They were both for delivery at Rapid City. Representative Lobeck. So that the cheap Government rate may have had something to do with it ? Mr. Vaux. It undoubtedly did have its bearing in that connection. Senator Hitchcock. But they were John Deere goods ? Mr. Vaux. The specifications were the same. Senator Hitchcock. And they had to be bought of John Deere at his price ? Mr. Vaux. Yes. Senator Hitchcock. And the bidders who bid at the Nebraska point made a lower price ? Mr. Vaux. Made a lower price than they could get locally at Rapid City. We have another item — a very small one — from Rosebud, showing the way that sometimes there is a very heavy proportion in the sav- ing. I will just read a very brief letter from Mr. Scriven, superin- tendent at the Rosebud, under date of July 7, 1913, to Mr. Jordan, the superintendent of the warehouse at Omaha: Inclosed is my personal check for $9.52 to pay the bill of the Richardson Drug Co. for 156 pounds of Paris green, which you kindly bought for this agency. When we get some official money I will reimburse this. I thank you very much for your favor, as it has saved this agency |7 on this Paris green. Senator Lane. Are they using Paris green on the reservations extensively ? [Laughter.] Mr. Vaux. Now, Mr. Chairman, I should like to submit a tabula- tion that we have made of a number of different articles taken at random from the 2,000-odd items that the Indian Bureau purchases, which shows the comparative cost, so far as we have been able to work it out, that the Bureau of Indian Affairs has paid for these articles when considered in connection with local prices. There is a great variety of these articles that we have taken to find here as fair a comparison as possible, and we make out that the net saving on this list that is here is $72,984.28. Senator Page. On how large an amount ? Mr. Vaux. Well, now, Senator, I have not the total amount made out, but I will give you a few of the items, so as to give you an idea of what there is covered. Senator Page. I do not quite catch what you are after. You are trying to show that the difference between the price when pur- chased at Omaha, for instance, and Rapid City — ^you. purchase at Omaha through the Government stores, and at Rapid City of the local dealers there ? Is that it ? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 405 Mr. Vaux. Not only at Rapid City but at a hundred and one other places in the Indian country. Senator Page. I only used that for an illustration, Mr. Vaux. Yes. The very great advantage to the Government is the ability to purchase in important trade centers rather than to purchase locally, as would have to be done in the case that the ware- house system were to be abolished. Senator Page. Purchase locally of country merchants? Mr. Vaux. Yes. In other words, to take the comparative price that the Government has paid in the Indian Bureau for these articles with what they would have cost if they had bought them in the local market at the points where they are to be used. For example, 95,000 yards of gingham, mth New York d eh very and freight considered, there was a unit of saving to the Government of 0.24 of a cent plus, which amounted to $324 on that one item; 10,000 undershirts, men's bajbriggan, hght, of assorted sizes, there was a saving of $2,048; men's half hose, a saving of $197; 2,500 corduroy coats, a saving of $2,788. Senator Robinson. May I interrupt you, Mr. Vaux ? Have you made an investigation to see whether there are also cases where in the open market these articles could have been purchased cheaper than they were actually purchased through the warehouse? You see, that might work both ways. There might be times and articles which might be bought cheaper through the warehouse than on the open market, and then, on the other hand, if you took a different article or a different locality you might find articles which could be bought much cheaper. As far as that is concerned, the statement of the general proposition argues that to me, rather than the taking of particular items. Mr. Vaux. The way we did the matter was that we had a number of different articles distributed through various varieties of goods, and every one of them showed a saving. We have not tried to hunt what showed a saving or what showed a greater expense. Senator Gronna. You did not take all the articles ? Mr. Vaux. We did not take the whole list of 2,000, no; but we selected the list which is on the sheet. Senator Robinson. How did you select them ? Mr. Vaux. Simply at random. Senator Gronna. Have you got the articles named there? Mr. Vaux. They are named there. For instance, 259,000 pounds of bacon, and 112',000 pounds of coffee, 1,430 pairs of overshoes, and 16,000 pairs of shoes. Senator Page. How did you arrive at the matter of quality there? For instance, on shoes. You could not tell whether they were the exact quality or not ? Mr. Vaux, Of course, this was done by consultation with the superintendent, and not only at the warehouses but also at the agen- cies, and to get them to give us theu- best judgment as to upon what they could have gotten them upon making inquiry as to the same sort of goods that were bemg supplied Sen a 'or Gronna. Suppose you had ^iven (he merchant in this particular town the opportunity to sell you this large number of shoes, do you suppose that would have made any difference ? 406 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. Mr. Vaux. Mr. Abbott can answer the question as to bow that -is. He collectjd tlif se figures. ^ Mr. Abbott. Ivlr. Chairman,, under the practice of the Indian Bureau every man in the United States who might be interested in selling to the Government any of these articles has an opportunity to bid. He has an opportunity to bid for delivery at any point he chooses, and in fully half of the $4,000,000 worth of purchases for the Indian Service — I will not say fully one-half, but almost half, or nearly $2,000,000 worth of these purchases — the local dealers do have proposal blanks seni to them, and have an opportunity to bid on these various items. They could bid for aU. Senator Lane. Do they ever bid ? Mr. Abbott. They do very often. Senator Kobinson. How many bidders do you usually have? Mr. Abbott. Mr. Fry, perhaps, has the figures. I think from 600 to 1 ,000 bids each year. There is real bidding — there is real conipetition. Senator Robinson. Have you ever found cases like this — Iknow it occurs in some State institutions in some States where I have had a little experience — a prominent shoe dealer, a flour dealer, clothing dealer, and dealers in other articles get together and all make bids, but bid collusively. They will apportion out what each one ought to have, and each one wiU take some particular line or article. For instance, John Jones is selling shoes. The others will all bid on shoes, but they will know what John Jones is going to bid, and they will bid just a little bit above him, and some a great deal above him, and John Jones gets the shoe contract. Then Will Smith will bid on flour. The others will bid on flour, all the dealers on flour, but they will all just bid a little bit above Will Smith, and Will Smith gets the flour contract. The sum total of the transaction is that they all sell to the State at higher than the market price, higher than they would if there was actual competition, and apparently the transaction is perfectly straight, and the lowest bidder gets the contract, but it being collusive they all get what they want and the Government gets it aplenty. Senator Lane. You have a provision to remedy that. Senator Eobinson. What is that ? Senator Lane. By balancing the bids. Mr. Abbott. The Indian Bureau reserves the right to reject any and all bids. I can give you two instances where the Government thought there was collusion and rejected all bids and readvertised. One was in the case of reefer coats that were used up in the Northwest in the cold country. The standard sample was made by a particular dealer in New York. He made it in a particular way. When the bids were opened, there was only one bid, and by inquiry we found that this one bid came from the concern which made the standard sample. Upon inquiry of other manufacturers of reefer coats, we found they were furnishing a similar article for a Uttle less price. We therefore rejected this bid. We changed the specifications so as to permit other manufacturers to come in. When we got the samples together and compared them with the standard sample that was made by this one concern, we bought a better article for a smaller price. There was another case where we thought there was some collusion. That was in the case of clothing. We were buying according to standard samples. There was a particular kind of blue cloth that was INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 407 purchased. We found out last year that there was just one mill that made this particular kind of cloth. So that all bidders who bid to make clothing from cloth like the standard sample would have to go to the one mill. Mr. Fry worked on that proposition and the Board of Indian Commissioners just last year took it up. Mr. Fry and my- self have had several conversations about it, and the Indian Bureau now has worked out in the new proposal blanks for this year, in consul- tation with the Board of Indian Commissioners, a set of specifications that wiU make it possible for other manufacturers of clothing, which is good enough for this purpose, to compete. I wUl say, in just a brief answer to your general question. Senator^ that I know from very careful studjr of this whole question that the Indian Bureau to-day is purchasing its supplies cheaper than at least one other branch of the Government service, for similar supplies, and I think cheaper than any of them, and I know it is buying these sup- plies on an average of 25 to 40 per cent less than they can be purchased in the local market. I want to say there is one point which has been over- looked — one Yerj important argument which has been overlooked — in favor of continuing the warehouses permanently. It has been brought out that the temporary rental of warehouses and temporary employees will cost more and be generally inefficient. That is clear on the face of it. But there is one other large point : The warehouses being located in different parts of the country, there are experienced superintendents to keep constantly in touch with the large manu- facturers and wholesale dealers and are in position to stimulate and .en,courage competition. The distribution of the opening of bids in the different parts of the country has that effect. For instance, the first year that bids were opened at the Omaha warehouses the bids we;re increased because of the interest taken by Missouri Eiver dealers from 30 to 40 per cent. On the other hand, three years ago we discontinued the opening of bids at the San Francisco warehouse. Mr. Fry will tell you that the records of the Indian Bureau will show that the bidding has fallen off on the Pacific coast at least 40 per cent. Just as large dealers send out drummers to drum up trade, it is important for the Government to have its drummers in the persons of the superintendents to en- courage people to bid. By having permanent warehouses through- out the country I befieve that competition results in a sufficient saving to pay each year the total cost of the warehouses, which now is about 3 per cent on the total amount of business that is handled through them. ' Senator Lane. I wish to ask the inspector this question: You are the purchasing agent, are you not ? Mr. Frt. I have charge of the purchasing department. Senator Lane. In checking on the bids to prevent collusion, do you have a system of balancing the bids and checking them out item by item and" retaining the provision in your tenders that you can reject any and all bids if they are not balanced bids? Mr. Fry. We do that in our advertising. We say that we reserve the right to reject any or all bids or any part of a bid. Senator Lane. And you balance the bids item by item, so that they can not act in collusion in this manner ? You have an estimate in your office showing what the probable cost will be ? Mr. Fry. Yes; the probable cost, and we balance the bids. 408 IKDIAN APPROPRIATION" BILL. Senator Lane. And then confine the acceptance of that bid within a certain per cent of the range of the estimate ? Mr. Fry. Yes; we keep the cost down to what the figures should be. Not only that, but we get prices from different territories, where they could have no collusion. There might be collusion locally. Senator Lane. You are able to protect yourself by knowing how to handle that kind of a bid ? Mr. Fry. I think we do take care of ourselves on that proposition. Senator Gronna. I see you have here an item for 100 tons of coal for the Cheyenne River school, South Dakota. It is Lehigh anthra- cite, and so forth, nut size. The bid is 16.89 a ton, and that price is f. o. b. either Chicago or Superior, Wis. What was the bid you re* ceived from South Dakota ? Can you give that ? What was the bid f. o. b. Superior, Wis. ? Mr. Fry. That would be the bid from West Superior. Senator Gronna. But you are making a comparison here. There is a comparison here showing that there is a profit of $155.50 made by purchasing it through this agency. Would it not be possible for the Indian Bureau to buy the coal through the merchant and then give the bureau the advantage of the freight rates ? Mr. Fry. That is what is done there. Senator Gronna. Yes; I understand that is what is done, but in making this comparison it is not a fair comparison at all unless you give the bids Mr. Fry. I think that is just what has been done with this. I do not know what the list says, but I think that is what they are getting at. Senator Gronna. This is $10.95. That is what the local merchant could make it. That is what it would cost the local merchant to ship it there, but it would not cost that much if the local merchant sold the coal to the Indian Bureau at West Superior, and the bureau could, of course, ship that coal and get the benefit of the rate. Mr. Fry. We have a man in the case in point who does that. We have a contractor who offers the coal to us at West Superior at $6.89, as you say. We ship it on a Government bill of lading to Gettysburg, S. Dak. (I think you said Cheyenne River agency.) I draw from what has been said about this case that the comparison is between the $6.89 at Superior, plus the Government land-grant freight rate to Gettysburg, and the price that could have been or was obtained from the local merchant. The local merchant would have to pay the regular tariff rate on the coal from Superior to Gettysburg. Senator Gronna. That is just what I am asking you. Why not take advantage of the cheap Government rate ? My question is this : Why do you not give the bid of the local dealer, f. o. b. Superior, Wis., instead of f. o. b. South Dakota? Mr. Fry. We did buy it in Superior. The local bidder does not enter into it because he did not bid at Superior in this case, pre- sumably. Senator Gronna. You are not allowing him to bid at Superior. Mr. Fry. Yes; he could have bid at Superior or anywhere he pleased. As to the delivery point, our call for prices is wide open. They can bid anywhere they please. Senator Gronna. Would you give him the benefit of the cheap rates ? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 409 Mr. Fry. If the coal operator's bid in Superior was $6.89 and the local merchant had bid on the same sort of coal $6.88 at Superior, he would have gotten the award, and we would have shipped the coal just the same on a Government bill of lading from Superior to Gettysburg. Mr. Meritt. The office will be glad to see adopted the motion made by the Senator from Arkansas [Mr. Robinson]. Mi\ Vaux. May we submit this tabulation for the record ? The Chairman. The chairman of the Board of Indian Commis- sioners submits certain tabulation of figures. Without objection they wiU be inserted in the record. (The tabulations referred to are as follows:) MEMORANDUM ON INDIAN WAREHOUSES. 1. Analysis of expenditures fiscal year ending June SO, 1913 — Salaries, wages, etc $46, 988. 96 Traveling expenses 4, 331. 02 Transportation of supplies 291, 845. 41 Telegraph and telephone service 734. 84 Heat, light, and power (service) 329. 79 Printing and advertising 749. 56 Stationery 804. 30 Fuel 318. 39 Equipment 518. 41 Rent of warehouses 11, 740. 00 Miscellaneous 258. 09 Total 358, 616. 77 The cost of maintaining the five warehouses was $62,475.03, of which, at the time the foregoing statement was prepared, $59,349.31 had actually; been spent. This expei^e was divided as follows: Regular employees, $35,203.57; irregular employees, $8,431.50; rental of buildings, $11,100; light, $362.86; fuel, $136.15; and $7,240.95 for miscellaneous expenditures. The cost of inspecting supplies is included in the amount paid irregular employees. 2. Low comparative cost. — It cost $62,475.03 to maintain five warehouses which purchased, inspected, and distributed approximately $2,000,000 worth of goods an- nually, or approximately 3 per cent of the value of the goods handled. This does not include about $2,000,000 a year additional expended for supplies purchased for the Indian Service which are not shipped through the warehouses but in the pur- chase of most of which the warehouses are utilized in many important ways. It is doubtful if many private concerns can produce a record of equal economy in handling a similar volume of business. 3. Great saving in railroad transportation through land-grant rates. — Approximately $250,000 a year is expended for railroad transportation. If goods were not shipped on Government bills of lading at land -grant rates, which average about on^^-hali of the regular tariff rates, railroad transportation alone would cost at least $400,000 a year. The annual saving in freight charges therefore amounta to more than twice the cost of maintaining all the warehouses. A considerable part of this saving is due to the shipment of a large percentage of supplies in carload lots, made possible by assembling them at the warehouses for reshipment to the various agencies. 4. Warehouses v. local purchases. — A saving of probably 30 per cent on the entire annual ex j)enditure for supplies, or approximately $1,000,000, is doubtless effected by purchasing in large quantities through the warehouses, rather than to buy locally. (See separate memorandum showing a saving of $72' 984.28 on 30 out of the more than 2,000 different articles purchased for the Indian Service. Sea also letters from the superintendent of the Chicago and Omaha warehouses.) 5. Economy and efficiency of warehouses for inspection. — The Government must be able to enforce delivery of the goods it buys. Its method of enforcement must be 80 effective that the delivery of below-standard articles is practically impossible. Otherwise the Government would stand to lose large sums of money, and, what is more important, to forfeit the benefits of competitive bidding on the part of honest business men. It goes without saying that thorough inspection is the only method of insuring the delivery of the articles the Government buys. Inspection is now accomplished most economically, because of the assembling of the goods in large 410 INDIAN APPEOPKIATION BILL. quantities. The articles generally are delivered at the warehouse, subject to inspec- tion, at the vendor's risk; if he delivers inferior goods, he has to replace them at nis own expense. This fact in itself is a powerful argument in favor of warehouses tor the purpose of inspection. But this is not all. The inspector himself is constantly under the eye of the warehouse superintendent; the temptation and opportunity for a dishonest contractor to stand in with the inspector are practically removed and there is no opportunity for the Government to lose through the substitutaon, either deliberately or by mistake, of inferior goods ofter inspection and before ship- ment, as could easily happen if goods were inspected at the warehouse of the vendor. In short, the Government must thoroughly inspect goods before it accepts them, and the only way it can do this effectually is by having absolute control of the goods dur- ing inspection and every moment after inspection up to the time of shipment. The only practical means of accomplishing this end is by using warehouses. If the present warehouses were abolished, there would still be the necessity for other warehouses for purposes of inspection. If Congress should deny the Indian Office the right to reni; warehouses for this purpose, the bars would be let down to enough inefficiency, if not graft and coiTuption, in one year to pay all the present cost of maintaining the ware- houses for five years. The result would be saving at the spigot and wasting at the bunghole with a vengeance. This question of inspection is the key to the whole warehouse system. In the Indian Service it has been so efficient and honest that there has not been a case known in years where dishonesty has succeeded. And in, the business world the Indian warehouse system enjoys the reputation of Caesar'^ wife. 6. Are there too many warehouses? Are two permanent warehouses sufficient? — These are both debatable questions. It may be asserted without fear of successful contra- diction that there is insufficient evidence at this time upon which to base an answer. The safe and sane and businesslike thing to do is to leave the law just as it now is and permit the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Board of Indian Commissioners to work out the question on business lines. It is absurd to say that either the Com- missioner of Indian Affairs or the Board of Indian Commissioners lacks the courage to discontinue any permanent warehouse, should facts warrant. There are many facts which argue in favor of retaining all the present warehouses permanently : (I) The most, important of these is the probable influence of these warehouses on competition. This fact is generally overlooked by those who recommend abolishing some of the warehouses. The opening of bids in different parts of the country doubtless stimulates bidding. Three years ago when bids were opened for the first time in Omaha, the bidding was increased about 30 per cent over that of the previous year. On the other hand, bidding from the Pacific coast fell off fully 50 per cent where bids have not been opened for the last two years. Another important fact is that the permanent location of warehouses in various sections of the country gives the Gov- ernment a representative in the person of the superintendent of the warehouse, who can cultivate an acquaintance with the large manufacturers and wholesale dealers, and interest them in bidding for supplies. It is impossible, of course, to estimate acciu-ately the amount of saving which results to the Government through competi- tion. An examination of the cost lists of Indian supplies will show that the Govern- ment is buying these suj)plies at remarkably low prices; the records will show that there is real and effective competition in the bidding and that the maintenance of warehouses in various sections of the country and the opening of bids therein stimu- lates and increases the competition. Taking into consideration the large quantities of supplies purchased, for example, 172,000 pounds of soap or 525,000 pounds of sugar, it is evident that the saving through increased competition of the fraction of a cent per pound on such articles would result in a saving sufficient to pay a large portion of the expense of maintaining the warehouses. (1) Another valid argument against displacing some of the permanent warehouses by temporary warehouses is the fact that suitable warehouses might not be available for temporary lease, and if so the cost would be proportionately greater. Again, it would be wholly impracticable to secure trained employees for this work for tem- porary service. Finally, the advantages of utilizing the warehouses for open-market purchases would be lost, if the warehouses were maintained only temporarily. The importance of this fact can be understood when it is remembered that approximately $2,000,000 worth of supplies are purchased annually. Doubtless a saving to the Government could be realized if Congress would make it possible by law to transfer employees from the warehouses to the Indian Office during dull seasons at the ware- houses and busy seasons at the Indian Office. 7. Conclusion. — It is clear that existing law should not be changed and that the existing practice should not be changed until the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Board of Indian Commissioners have worked out a better system with which to replace the present system. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 411 ^ CO CO o6i>o6 -* O5 00 OS CO ^8 S § 3^ S t^ in fCi CO 00 "5 O N i-l « 00 r>- o O ■«»' CO lO <0 00 05 i-l lOtO 05 0000 CO i-H 00 r-t Oi-H iH «OC>^ O '-<(N IN >0£N TT CO (N -i O5C0 00 N -^ 00 "5 T»< o ■<* 00 C^ OOO to O kO C^-W r;- -Tt" 00 ■«»l N o a t-H lOOi-l «5 O Tji ift O ■ 'in ■ ss^ "3 ' t>ico Oi OS ^ lO o i-t IN O CO OS _ iOO> 1—1 OOO »o oi-~i— lo lO lOi— I C^ Or- lOlO O CM O U3 »-1 00 >-l C^ rl OS i-( CO O) T3 ;-! 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MCOtlMWIDOOO!) o ^ o o |35«0.25 o 00 T3 o p- O O 1-1 M O) -d bC .t.H 03 ^,d Wo wa "eg |o§^ Td 03 S - 03 -a ■^.^ S; eg" PM 412 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 0^ 00 >o CO CM cm' id o> ■^ r- uo ic 00 m -H — ( Oi 03 O 0) ^^a cm" ^5 b£ , CO 10 r^ (TO lO l> CC 10 -H ^ > Pi ^ l-^ Won) 69 •■3^0 p+- robable ait cost, bought ocally. 10 t^ 10 en PHg.*3^ l> <£> . ^ Sn 00 « CO CO 'S' «'S'S) oi (m" -^J d.S< t« •as 2 15 .a*" i Ih (-< . ^ • .2 ; be '^ > •S.S3 S § :S^ B 13 •^ - a ' t- V .—1 ■rH C^ 05 U3 ^ 00 00 !» ^ a D OT 00 •s rT< r^ ?-< 1 00 ; --I o> < N 4^ 7+- J CO . *^§ ; T3 & §1 "0 .§ «H ce 0} O-M d ■-1:^ C3 '•> 00 «i ^ a g'^ ^ •ti a CO 1 •P-4 o3 '^ • • M (-1 n^ : cc K^ < ^ 1 > . 03 §>.2 : > '^"a \ « rQ C3 ■ (D (- TO mT3 S" ; a s : .a;.-. ■ Oco , , '& 00 qT t, 3 -. (C J- (15 P^ Pm 1 % 2 3 (ill INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 413 The Chairman. The question recurs gn the motion of the Senator from Ai'kansas [Mr. Robinson], that the committee strike out all of line 12, after the figures '^$300,000,'' including lines 13, 14, and 15, on page 9. The motion was agreed to. The Chairman. Without objection the record will show the Sena- tor from Missouri [Mr. Stone] voting ''Yes." expenses of board of INDIAN COMMISSIONERS. The Chairman. The next item is on page 10 of the printed compari- son, item No. 13, referred to at page 223 of the House hearings, as follows: ''For expenses of the Board of Indian Commissioners, $5,000, including not to exceed 1300 for office rent." Senator Townsend. Mr. Chairman, I move that item be increased to $10,000. Senator Clapp. I second the motion. Senator Thompson. What is the reason for that? Senator Clapp. Because they ought to have more. Senator Thompson. They have estimated $5,000. Senator Townsend. Senator La Follette wanted to be heard on that item, but he does not appear to be here, and I do not want to delay the meeting, as far as I am concerned. But I am personally very much in favor of increasing the appropriation for the purpose of allowing a little more for the expenses of this commission, which thus far has been very largely paymg its own expenses. It is com- posed of a class of men — I am sorry some of them are here, but I will not save my opinion on that account. It is composed, as a rule, of very high-grade men who, I think, have unselfishly devoted their time to this work. I have noticed some of their recommendations. Originally this commission had rather larger powers than they are now exercising. They were supposed to have supervisory charge of all of the purchases of supplies. They were also supposed to iiiform themselves as to the conditions of the Indians. Now, I think that one thing we need as much as anything else with reference to this work is publicit}^. I think that everybody who has given any conscientious thought to Indian affairs is satisfied that things are wrong. They have been wrong for a good while. We have neglected our duty to the Indians. There is not much doubt about that. There has been much misunderstanding as to what the condition of the Indians is, and what are his wants. This commission has undertaken to go down and visit the tribes, go out among them, paying their own expenses, with the exception of the pittance that is allowed here every year to help pay their expenses. Believing as I do that they have no other object in mind than the good of the Indians, and a reformation in the service wherever if is necessary, I want to see the work continued, and I want to give them enough money so that they can do their work as in their judgment they may deem best. Now, I have talked with one or two, and as I understand it they are satisfied with $7,500; that is, they could get along with $7,500. But I am also told that if they had tbe larger amount they could devote more time to this work. And, so far as I am concerned, having looked over their work in the past, having familiarized myself with the men, not being personally 414 INblAN APPROPRIATION BILL. acquainted witli many of them, except by reputation; no one of them having spoken to me about enlarging this sum, or speakmg their favor, after my investigation I am satisfied that there is no greater influence for the good of the Indians than this Board of Indian Commissioners. I believe, as I said, that they are high-grade, conscientious men, and they work in harmony with every effort tl^at is being put forth to benefit the conditions in the Indian Service, and therefore I have made this motion because I think it is not too much, and if there is any way to help them, I want to do it through this method. I think there are three Senators in favor of this proposition who are not here to-day. If there is opposition to it, I want it to go oveu until the whole committee is here. If there is no opposition to it, then I am ready to vote for it. Senator Gronna. I want to say that I am very much in favor of increasing this to $10,000. Senator Clapp. I want to add that if it was in my power I would have something similar to this in conjunction with many of the other departments of the Government, and I beheve some day we will have. Senator Lane. How long has this board been in existence? The Chairman. Since 1869. Senator Lane. That is what I wanted to call your attention to. Since 1869 we have had the board of commissioners, an independent body, responsible to no one, I presume, except the President of the United States, and all during mat time, year by year, the condition of the Indians has gone progressively to the bad. They are worse off now than they have been at any other time. I have been waiting to hoar a report from this commission why that condition exists or why they have allowed it to continue without protest. If their work is not improved, if they do not take a greater interest in the Indians who are dying now — three to one with what the whites are — with tuberculosis, and in many places are going hungry, and in many places their property being stolen from them without apparently a word of protest from this commission, so far as I know, I would consider them rather superfluous. Senator Clapp. Senator Lane, there is one thing that everybody must bear in mind in connection with this subject. The Indian problem started with some tribes that were paid annuities and rations. The problem came up of changing those people into individuals. It has been a great problem. It has had to move very largely along experimental lines, and the question is not whether this commission has prevented any mistakes, but whether they have been of service in this matter. It is a historical fact that one of the early men, I think the father of the American Constitution, had the thought in mind of boards somewhat similar to this, outside of Congress, outside of official positions, who were free from any entanglements, and I believe tnat notwithstanding the mistakes that have been made this board has been of service. It has not been of the service that it might have been, because we have not given enough to warrant the help that they need. There never was a time in my judgment when the Indian situation required the study that it requires now, as we are more and more transferring the Indian from his old tribal relation to that of an individual. I beheve it would be a good thing in other departments of the Government if there were a body of men who INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 415 could be interested in a measure to look after matters, look them up, advise either with the departments themselves, and also in all cases with Congress direct. Senator Lane. The position I take in the matter is this: That these conditions have gone on continuously. Here is a Board of Indian Commissioners composed of men who have high standing throughout the United States, and that day on which tjiey officially protested against the wrongs which have been practiced on these people to an extent that is absolutely and unutterably dishonest and dishonorable, they could have wielded a power that would have put a stop to it, and I do not see why they have not done it. They occupy a position as commissioners with the powers vested in them, which commands the confidence of the people, and the very fact that they have allowed it to go on without protest and grow progressively worse has been a bulwark to the bad practices and abominable dishonesty which has been carried on. If they would wake up and get busy I think they ought to get $25,000, or $30,000— but if they are going to stand by Perfunctorily and allow this to go on I would shut them off as quick as could. They are participating in a condition that is a disgrace to this Nation and to the commissioner and to me, as a Senator, and I will not be any party to continuing any such policy. I have a letter in my pocket now from an Indian on one of the reser- vations where they have hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of property, and he is begging for food, asking for permission to eat any dead stock which he may have lying around on the plains. While the condition is not as bad as that in every part of the United States, there is not an Indian tribe but what is going down to ruin, and their property being stolen from them, and there is the work for you gentlemen, for your commission, which since 1869 has been in exist- ence. Before 1869 and since then the Indians have been going down to hell. I do not believe in independent commissions. I do not beheve in divided responsibility. I believe the responsibility ought to be fixed in one man and then hold him responsible. Senator Clapp. Senator, this dees not divide the responsibility. Senator Lane. In a way it does. Congress is being made respon- sible for a lot cf things that it does not know anything about, and for these commissions, and it should have been their duty to inform us, and it was the duty of the bureau. We blindly stagger along here without knowing a lot of things that we should know about the con- ditions. Only within the la^t year I guess we have learned more about them than we ever did before, and I thmk we wiU learn more this next year. It has been acquired quite independent of the com- mission and quite independent of the Indian Bureau itself, and in some places in spite of them. I have not a large amount of enthu- siasm on this subject hke you gentlemen seem to have. There has been divided responsibiUty for the reason that they are in part responsible to Congress, and it takes a weight off the department. They can truly say, ''Here are the Indian commissioners, mdepend- ent gentlemen, the finest in the world; everybody knows them men of national reputation. We are very sure it must be all right or they would make protests.'' You know it is all wrong just as well as I do. Senator Townsend. I am going to agree with you on a lot of things, Senator 416 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Lane. I do not say that in criticism of the gentlemen of the board personally. Senator Townsend. Senator Lane, we do not disagree on the general situation, but every argument you have made thus far has been an argument against the Indian commissioner as well as the department. This commission should not be criticised for that. In the first place, how much investigation would there be made if it was left to you and me alone, and we pa3ring our own expense to go down on these Indian reservations to make the investigations? Now, you say they have made no protests. I want to say to you, Senator, that my attention was first called to the condition of Indian affairs ., Senator Lane. I mean this year. No protests in this meeting that I have heard. That is what I meant. Senator Townsend. The commission is here now. They have not gotten through being heard, so far as that is concerned. But thej have made a report on some conditions, and a very good report, as it strikes me, as to what ought to be done. I repeat that my first interest aroused in the Indian came from two or three members, or reports from members of the Board of Indian Commissioners. They have been appointed in the first place to do certain things. They have been shut down all the time, their influence circumscribed as much as possible. They were not given the free hand to go into this thing as they ought to have been given a free hand to go into it. They have been confined, finally, and have been for a number of years, to acting simply in a sort of a supervisory way over purchases, and yet not given control over that. Senator Lane. They are in that position now ? Senator Townsend. Yes. But this commission we have to-day, and during the last year, and the last 18 months, have manifested some very healthy signs of life. They have undertaken to do some things. Senator Lane. I understand you to say they have no powers ? Senator Townsend. They have no powers except inquisitorial, and that is all I am asking to have them have. I want them to have money enough to go onto these reservations and go into the conditions and make a report to Congress. And I would not only have it made to the Bureau of Indian Affairs, but I should like to have that report made to the committees of the two Houses, so that we can find out. Senator Lane. I would be willing to appropriate a good sum for that if they will go into it and help clear it up. Senator Robinson. I think that this board constitutes an anomaly in the administration of the affairs of the Government. I believe that the Bureau of Indian Affairs ought to be made an independent bureau, and that a commission with adequate powers and full re- sponsibility ought to be created to handle Indian affairs. I have in- troduced a bill intended to accomplish that end. Of course, that is not now under consideration, but it will soon probably be brought to the attention of this committee. But, as I have already stated, this is an anomaly. Its powers are restricted, as Senators have just stated, so that if it accomphshes anything substantial it must exceed its jurisdiction. I do not con- trovert anything that has been said as to the high character of the gentlemen who constitute this board. If it were not for their high INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. 417 character, I do not believe Congress would consider for a moment the proposition of maintaining a Board of Indian Commissioners with no powers greater than are vested in this board and with no authority to do or to undertake to do anything substantial in so far as Indian affairs are concerned. This does not exist in anv other department of ^the Government, and heretofore the conduct of Indian affairs with this board in existence, and in spite of its existence, has been as stated by Senator Lane — and I do not indorse aU that he said — but it has been, to say the least, unsatisfactory and unsuccessful. In spite of the existence of this board these conditions have arisen and we are to-day confronted with a problem of working this out so that they may not recur and so that the Indian affairs may be conducted in the future as they should be conducted. I believe that the present Commissioner of Indian Affairs is doing his duty, and he is bearing a great burden. I am convinced that he is righting a wrong wherever it is called to his attention. Pie is trying to discover wrongs that exist in this service. I believe that if a board of commissioners mth power to control this subject is created, and with responsibility for its action, it will be wise, but I do not believe Congress would be jus- tified in increasing this appropriation under the existing conditions for an outside board, Vv^hich in a measure constitutes an anomaly in the administration of Indian affairs. I repeat that the high character of the gentlemen who constitute this board alone suggests to any man familiar with the administra- tion of public affairs the obligation or necessity for continuing it, but the fact is that in spite of its existence, and in the face of the fact that it has existed ever since 1869, the condition of the Indian has grown worse, his estate has been dissipated, his property has been appro- priated in many instances by the white man, and now I do not see the wisdom of approving a policy which in the past has proven unsuc- cessful and unsatisfactory. I believe that the only way you wiU ever remedy this condition is by throwing the responsibility full on the commissioner himself, or giving him a commission to assist him in the discharge of the many detailed duties that develop on that bureau. One of the great difficulties that have occurred in the past has been the delay which has been occasioned by reason of the fact that the simplest matter relating to Indian affairs must pass through so many hands, and the fact that it must go to the Secretary of the Interior for his consideration and nominal approval. That has occa- sioned great delays where an urgency actually existed. It has dissipated rather than concentrated responsibility, and I thmk the thing for Congress to do is to create some officer of the Government,, "or officers of the Government, define their powers and duties by law, and hold them responsible for the conduct of these affairs. You will never work it out m any other way. Senator Townsend. But, Senator, is there anything that this com- mission does that interferes in the least with any reforms that Com- missioner Sells wishes to carry out? Senator Robinson. Commissioner Sells can answer that question. I do not know. , .1 -^ i? xt_ Senator Townsend. Knowmg the authority ot the commission, I know it is absolutely impossible. If by creating a public sentiment, for instance, if the comnussion should find things different from that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs might find them, then I could see 39746— PT 1—14 27 418 INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. how he mio-ht be embarrassed : but he might be wrong and the com- mission might be right. But I am not supposing there is to be any conflict. I had not imagined there would be any conflict between these two bodies of men, the Indian Bureau and this board of com- missioners which was created, and I think wisely created, but after- wards very unwisely its powers were restricted in order that it might not interfere with the administration of the office of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Restricted in that way, possibly they have not accomplished, and probably have not accompUshed, all they should have accomplished, but if 1 know anythuig at all, if I understand anythino-j and I have very deep convictions on this particular subject, this board has been of great value during the last year and a littll more than that. They have been very active. Some men ha,ve gone to great expense on their own account to put up the money in order that the members might go here and there and look into their affairs. My little experience with you, Senator Robinson, out in the Indian reservations impresses me very strongly with the idea that men should come in contact with the Indians; that they should see how the Indians are living, what they are doing, and what their needs are. This body of men will do that thmg, and I submit that, so far as the department is concerned, the only conflict — and I do not want to mention that to give it any dignity, because I do not believe in it — would be because of some jealousy. I am opposed to that entering into this question at all. I am interested for the Indians and for nothing eLe in the world, so far as this committee is concerned. I want to improve his condition. Senator Robinson. I want to say to the Senator from Michigan that if he implies I have any other interest Senator Townsend. Oh, no; I am not talking about you. I know what you are, Senator. Senator Robinson. My interest is the same as the Senator's. Senator Townsend. I know that. Senator Robinson. I repeat what I said a while ago, that you can not settle this proposition, as Senator Lane has said, by further divid- ing responsibihty. You must concentrate it, and concentrate it in officers of the Government. Senator Townsend. But we are not dividing responsibility. Senator Robinson. I think you are. Senator Townsend. This board does not interfere with their work at all. Senator Robinson. If they do not, what do they accomplish? I am not in sympathy with the Senator's suggestion that .the board should always get along — that there should be no conflicts. I can readily conceive that if this board is to perform a valuable public function it might of necessity come in conflict with the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Senator Townsend. Surely. Senator Robinson. But I prefer that the handling of the affairs of the Indians be conducted by an officer of the Government rather than what might be termed a roving commission. Senator Townsend. They are carried on the pay rolls of the Gov- ernment as officers of the Government. This commission is an old one. It has been here for some time. Senator Robinson. Since 1869. INDIAN APPi^tOPEIATION BILiL. 419 Senator Townsend. I do not think it is quite as early as 1869. Senator Owen. It was established by President Grant, in the first place, who wanted to get some one who would give friendly council that would be beneficial to the Indians at a time when the United States did not take the active interest in the affairs of the Indians as they do now. It was just after the war closed, and it had become obvious that the Indians needed some one who would be friendly to them, and for that reason Grant established it and put upon it men of wide-known humanitarian impulses, men of distinction and of high character, who would act in an advisory capacity to him and tell him what was reaUy the best thing for the Indians. That function was discharged very satisfactorily for a good long while, until gradually the activities of the Indian Office became greater and greater, and they gradually got hold of the Indian affairs, and with the result, at the present time, which we know, that the handling of the affairs is not always free from the objections which have been named, which I take it» would be due to the frailty of the administration of human beings almost under any circumstances. The Secretary "of the Interior has certain inspectors who have been used for the purpose of checking up the administration of Indian affairs. He would upon complaint send an independent man, inde- pendent of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, into an agency to look over these matters and to ascertain whether there were abuses and report directly to him as the representative of the President. Of couree the Commissioner of Indian Affairs has his agents, too, who do that, so that the agencies are checked up by the inspectors of the Interior Department and are checked up by the agents of the Com- missioner of Indian Affairs. And in spite of the double check which obtains in that way still there are abuses of a more or less serious character, which have been referred tu. I have been getting these reports of the Board of Indian Commis- sioners for 25 years, and it comprises, as you all know, a httle volume of some matter which is quite dry. I do not mean that in a dis- courteous way at all; but I have not found that those reports were of any particular interest. T'he membership of the board has been of the highest possible class. They are men who are splendid men in every way, men distinguished for their Christian character and their philanthropic point of view, and from time to time they have been the vehicle, as has been suggested here, through which com- plaints were given a hearing, which perhaps otherwise would not have been heard; but I confess I have been voting for this appro- priation for them for a number of years merely as a comphment to the high character of the gentlemen who are on the board, and last year I concluded that that ought not really to continue, and I ex- pressed' my sentiment the other way, and I think it was immediately interpreted by their friends that I had suddenly become not a friend of the Indians, which is particularly absurd, because I have been very devoted to the interests of the Indians and have done whatever I could to serve them, however inefficiently. I think that a wise and judicious management argues tor concen- tration of authority and a concentration of responsibility. In any admmistration agents who would go out and check other agents are absolutely necessary for a wise administration, but I do not believe in a divided responsibility. I think it is a mistake of administration. 420 INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. Senator Gronna. There is no question in my mind that this board of commissioners are high-class men, that they are everything that has been suggested here, but I for one do not wish to appropriate one single cent to them unless they are of some benefit to the Indians., Unless what they have done has been beneficial it will be a mistake to appropriate a single dollar. I have said in this committee before that we ought to congratulate ourselves in having secured the serv- ices of our present commissioner, and I want to say that, although he is present. I would be the last one to do anything that would divide his responsibility, because what I have heard of Commissioner Sells is that he is not only an honest man, but he is an efficient man. He knows how to do things. But I can not see for the life of me why this commission should interfere with the services of the Indian Com- missioner of the Indian Bureau. If these men are what has been so well said here, it seems to me that their services would be of some value to the Indian Bureau, because all they have done has been to point out the wrongs that have been committed against the Indians. It is impossible for any one man to go into details, and Commis- sioner Sells will find the same difficulty that other commissioners have found, that some of the men whom he trusts, honest though they be, do not possess the abihty that he possesses, and their duties will perhaps not be performed in accordance with the way he would like to have them performed. I do not want to vote for an appro- priation of a single dollar if it is to be understood that it will be detrimental or interfere in the least with the present commissioner. I believe it to be my duty to do this because 1 have said that I was in favor of continuing this appropriation. I meant by that that the unselfish services rendered by tiiis commission have on the whole been beneficial to the Indians. Senator Townsend. As there seems to be some opposition to this, and in view of certain Senators having expressed a desire to be heard, I think that it should go over now. The Chairman. Senator La FoUette has asked that when this matter came up and was to be determined he be notified. What is the pleasure of the committee ? Senator Owen. Let it go over. The Chairman. The item will be passed and taken up to-morrow. Senator Kobinson. I move the committee adjourn. (The motion was agreed to.) (Thereupon, at 5 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Thursday, April 2, 1914, at 2 o'clock p. m.) X INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. THURSDAY, APRIL 2, 1914. I Committee on Indian Affairs, United States Senate. The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Ashurst (chairman), Myers, Lane, Clapp, La FoUette, Gronna, and Townsend. The Chairman. The committee will come to order. I have a letter this morning from Senator Robinson, as follows : April 2, 1914. Hon. Henry F. Ashurst, Chairman Committee on Indian Affairs, Washington^ D. C. - Dear Senator: I am called out of the city to attend the fiuieral of Judge Rich- ardson, and inview of the discussions that have been going on regarding the Board of Indian Commissioners, I would like to have the vote on the amendment laid over until my return. Very truly, yours, Joe T. Robinson. That will be done. We are now on the page entitled ''Miscella- neous items," being the second page from the last. Item No. 1 has been referred to Mr. Meritt and Senator Fall for amendment. Item No. 13 is passed at the request of Senator Robinson. INDIAN police. The Chairman. The first item we will consider will be item No. 14, page 10 of the printed bill; page 252 of the hearings, as follows: For payment of Indian police, including chiefs of police, at not to exceed $50 per month each, and privates at not to exceed $30 per month each, to be employed in maintaining order, and for the purchase of equipments and supplies and for rations for policemen at nonration agencies, $150,000. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, this is the same amount that was allowed; we are estimating this year for the same amount that was allowed in the appropriation of last year, namely, $200,000, and we would like to have our estimate allowed by this committee. The Chairman. The House allowed $150,000, did it? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. What ground did it cut it down on, do you know? Mr. Meritt. I do not know. Senator, The entire appropriation of $200,000 is needed. All this money goes to the Indians to help in preserving order and peace on the Indian reservations, and we find the appropriation helpful in administering the afl'airs of the Indians. The justification for this item is found on page 253 of the House hearings. Senator Gronna. It seems to me that there is a justification for the appropriation of $200,000, where there is an unexpended balance of only $14,953.37 at the time this report was made. I move, Mr. Chairman, that it be increased to $200,000. 421 422 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. The Chairman. The Senator from North Dakota moves that the item under consideration be increased to the original estimate. $200,000. Senator Lane. You say here: ''Less than 1,000 for oyer 300,000 Indians. It is apparent therefore that this force is entirely inade- quate." Do you know what proportion of policemen there are to the inhabitants, say, of the city of Washington? You are running one to about each 300 people, and half of those are women and children who require not much police attention. You are really running a policeman there to every 100 or 150 adult males, are you not? Mr. Meritt. According to those figures. Senator Lane. Is that not entirely out of proportion to any police^ force that we have in any municipality in the United States ? Mr. Meritt. These Indian policemen do considerable work in addi- tion to policing the reservation. Senator Lane. What other work do they do ? Mr. Meritt. They go out and help in leasing matters; where they are competent they help the superintendent in the leasing of the lands. Senator Lane. Is that in the justification? Mr. Meritt. They also interpret for the superintendents. Senator Gronna. Thev also render service in connection with the violations of liquor traffic, do they not; that is, they are used half the time for that purpose ^ Senator Senator white men think it quite proper to impose upon the Indians bringing two bottles of whisky on the reservation, and I think it is more im- portant that we should have the proper amount allowed to employ policemen to take care of this, in order to do away with this menace, and I, for one, am in favor of giving all they need. Senator Lane. So am I, but it struck me on reading the item here that ''this force is entirely inadequate," and it is so much greater number in proportion to the population than we have in any of the cities, even in slum districts, that the Indians must be a very dis- orderly lot of people, or else you must have a very inefficient police force; you have too many policemen for the number of Indians if the Indians are orderly people. Mr. Meritt. The policemen do very good work on the reservations, and it is helpful to have these Indian police. The Indians feel that they have a share in the administration of their affairs. Senator Lane. If they are doing good work there, all right. What do any of those people know about the police system? STATEMENT OF THOMAS L. SLOAN, ESQ. Mr. Sloan. The police force at the Omaha A^^ency absolutely neglect looking after the liquor traffic at all. They have liquor sales right under the nose of the clerk in char-'ge of the police force, and they spend most of their time in running errands, hitching up teams, and acting as servants for the employees at the agencies. They are used as personal servants, and I ^find that is true at several of the agencies that I have visited. Instead of them being actually police- men and looking after the welfare of the Indians and guarding against Lane. All policemen do that, in every locality. Gronna. les; but as a general rule you will find that the IISTDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 42 S the liquor traffic and other violations of the law, they have deteriora- ted into personal body servants for the agents and other employees of the agency office. Senator Gronna. I was going to ask you a question, Mr. Sloan. Do you not believe this will be changed under instructions given out by Commissioner Sells ? I have on my desk this morning a letter from Commissioner Sells, giving instructions. I understand these gentlemen will give instructions to the force. Mr. Sloan. I think there will be some improvement. I might say that a great many of the agency police forces are used indiscrimi- nately — that is, some of the agents imagine that they are courts of law, and they are arbitrary in tne exercise of their power through the police. At the Omaha Agency we had this experience : After the Omahas had been citizens for a period of 22 years, without any court of Indian offenses, the worst Indian agent we had ever had, and a man who was indicted for conspiracy to defraud the Indians, made application to the Indian Office for authority to establish a court of Indian offenses, which was granted. The first time after the appointment of such court when 1 went to the agency a number of Indians were under arrest, working on the roads and grounds about the agency building. The next time I went there they had erected a jail and had an Indian confined on the charge of quarreling with his neighbors. There was no complaint in writing, or other record against him. He had been arbitrarily put in there without hearing of any kind, and I asked to have him released. The agent refused to do so. I went before the United States Circuit Court for the District of Nebraska, sitting at Omaha, and obtained there a writ of habeas corpus from Judge Treiber, of the Eastern District of Arkansas, who was presiding, and in granting the writ he said: "The utmost diligence on the part of the court, supplemented by an earnest effort on the part of the United States attorney, has failed to find any law for the existence of such a court or the infliction of such punishment. The writ is granted." We have not had a jail or court of Indian offenses at the Omaha Agency since. I found at the Yankton Agency last summer four Indian men and one women in jail under direction of the agent, they were confined without the filing of any written complaint for the issuance of a war- rant, or any other process. The men were in a small room without any sanitary conveniences during the very hottest weather, and I think the worst stench I ever smelted I found canae from that small room where those men were confined. Such things are not only abominable but are outrageous, and it should not be permitted to exist among citizens of the United States. The use of the pohce force— of the policemen who are employed at the agencies— should not be permitted if the agents use their power in such an arbitrary and disreputable way. I think any man, either white man or Indian, should, if he is confined, have some record by which the person bringmg it about may be held responsible in some degree. This is 9 general re- quest from the Indians of the country. Senator Lane. I notice here that there is really the appointment of one policeman to about every 60 or 70 -somewhere between 60 and 100 adult males. Now that is from 5 to 10 times as many police- men as are used in municipaUties— that is, ordinarily well-governed 424 INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. municipalities. In some parts of the district, and some cities prob- ably, they have a larger force than I am mentioning, but it is entirely out of proportion to anything I have ever heard of. They are either a disorderly lot of people or there is a very inefficient pohce i^c?- Mr. Meritt. The Indian pohce, of course, are not as elhcient as city pohcemen. The Indian population is not as congested as the city population, arid that of course, accounts in a m.easure for this increase. As to these policemen, it is admitted that they do other duties in connection with their work than is closely related to pohce duties. The commissioner, as Senator Gronna has stated, has re- cently sent out a circular letter to every en^ployee in the Indian Service, insisting and demanding that there be instructions for the • enforcement of the law in regard to the suppression of the liquor traffic, and I would like permission to insert that letter in the record. The Chairman. That will be inserted in the record in the absence of objection. There being none, it is so ordered. The letter referred to is as follows : Department of the Interior, Office Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, March 25, 1914. To all employees in the Indian Service: The following is an excerpt from ray address to the conference of field supervisors on the evening of February 20, 1914: "I believe that the greatest present menace to the American Indian is whisky. It does more to destroy his constitution and invite the ravages of disease than anything else. It does more to demoralize him as a man, and frequently as a woman. It does more to make him an easy prey to the unscrupulous than everythiag else combined. If I say nothing more to you to-night that leaves an impression let it be this one thought: Let us save the American Indian from the curse of whisky. ''We have a force of man engaged in the suppression of the liquor traffic. That is their special business. But it is my business and it is your business to do every- thing we can without injecting ourselves offensively into the work of others or assum- ing a duty that is not properly ours to create an atmosphere and suggest conditions that wUl be helpful in this resepct, and above all to be a personal object lesson, invit- ing the Indian to banish liquor rather than to be guilty of anything that may cause him to look upon one of us as a justification for doing that which leads him to the destruction caused by the use of whisky. "There is nothing that could induce me, since I have taken the oatTi of ofhce as Commissioner of Indian Affairs, to touch a single drop of any sort of- intoxicating liquor, and this regardless of my attitude on the prohibition question. As a matter of good faith to our treaty relationships, to legislative enactments, to the Congress which appropriates $100,000 a year for the suppression of the liquor traffic among the Indians, we should do everything reasonably within our power to justify this appropriation and insure the best results obtainable. This accomplished, we have laid a substantial foundation for all of our work in solving the Indian problem and made a long step forward looking toward their equipment for the responsibilities of citizenship." It is my great desire that every employee in the Indian Service shall realize the tremendous importance of the liquor suppression work and exert his best efforts and influence for the protection of the Indian from this his worst enemy. I desire this letter to be regarded as a personal communication to every employee in the Indian Service and that it be seriously treated as such, and I especially request that on the 6th day of April, 1914, the same be read to the student body of every Indian school, including those under Government, mission, or private supervision. Sincerely, yours, Cato Sells, Commissioner, I am addressing the above letter to each of the 6,000 employees in the Indian Service. Mr. Meritt. I believe, in view of the commissioner's determination to enforce this liquor law, that the police force that we now have should not be cut down. I think we can make better use of the police INDIAN APPKOPBIATION BILL, 425 force hereafter than has been made in the past. We concede that there have been irregularities in the use of this poUce force, as there have been irregularities in the use practically of every appropriation in this Indian bill. Senator Lane. All right. You are asking for $100,000 for the cure of tuberculosis, the thing that is kilhng on Indians, who are dying three times as fast as the whites, and it is totally inadequate, and here we are passing a large appropriation in proportion to the number of Indians — the largest one I have ever seen called for in any city that I have ever heard of. We spend Indian money for the wrong purpose. If these policemen were out checking up the injustice which is being done the Indians in the way they are being imposed upon in land transactions and the way titles are secured to their land by frauds and impositions upon them, they would be doing better work. But they have never made any reports of such frauds in the past of any kind that I know of. I am not going to object to your getting the money, but I want to say right here that there are too many policemen — 1 for every 60 people. Senator Clapp. I do not think that ought to be. Mr, Meritt. Every dollar of this appropriation goes to the Indians and is used in the Indian Service. The Chairman. Senators, we are needed for a quorum in the Senate, and the committee will now have to take a recess. Senator Clapp. I move we take a recess to meet on the call of the chairman. (The committee took a recess for 20 minutes, at the expiration of which an adjournment was taken, to meet to-morrow, Friday, April 3, 1914, at 2 o'clock p.m.) raiDAY, APRIL 3, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Henry F. Ashurst (chairman). Lane, Owen, Gronna, and Townsend. The Chairman. The committee will come to order. PAYMENT OF INDIAN POLICE. J The Chairman. I think that yesterday we were on item No. 14 page 10 of the printed bill, for payment of Indian pohce, includmg chiefs of poUce at not to exceed $50 per month each, and privates at not to exceed $30 per month, to be employed in maintaining order, and for the purchase of equipments and supphes and rations for poHcemen at nonration agencies, $200,000. It is discussed at page 252 of the hearings. i i? .i, «; xi Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, I got from the record of the oltice the exact statement of the number of poUcemen now on duty. There are 643 poUcemen now being paid from this appropriation, ihe justi- fication refers to the fact that there is at the present tune less than 1,000 poHce for over 300,000 Indians. However, that statement m the justification is misleading. We only have 643 Indian pohce al- ^^e Chairman. Do you want to tabulate them in the record there? 426 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. We will not ask that the statement go in the record. Senator Lane. Do you think that ought to be allowed; the full $200,000 ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; I have looked into the matter since yesterday and we find the Indian pohce are helpful on Indian reservations in maintaining order, and their duties are prescribed by the Indian Office regulations. Senator Lane. What are their duties generally? Keeping the peace ? Mr. Meritt. Here are general rules. Every member of the police force must — Render prompt obedience to superiors, be orderly and respectful in deportment, and refrain from profane, insolent, or vulgar language. Wear the uniform of the police while on duty and at meetings for drill, and present a tidy appearance. Attend punctuallj'^ all meetings for instruction and drill . Be well acquainted with the topograph} of the reservation, and so inform themselvesv as to the appearance of the cattle, wagons, and other property belonging on the reserva- tion as to be able to identify them wherever found. Constantly patrol the districts assigned and not loiter in the cabins of Indians or settlers. Give immediate notice of the arrival of strangers upon the reservation. Obtain all possible information in regard to timber, cattle and horse thieves, squat- ters, and liquor sellers in the vicinity, and vigilantly watch the movements of all suspicious characters and their associates, and make due report of the same. Report marriages, deaths, and cases of severe sickness or accident. Not only perform the regular duties assigned, in the regular hours allotted, but be ready for special service at any time. No member shall receive or share, for his own benefit, any present, fee, or emolu- ment for pohce service other than the regular compensation provided by the United States Government, except by permission of the agent, who must first obtain the approval of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. No member shall communicate to any person information which might enable parties to escape arrest or punishment or to secrete goods or other- valuables stolen or embezzled; nor shall he communicate any information respecting orders which he has received, except by permission of liis superiors. No member shall be concerned, directly or indirectly, in any compromise or arrange- ment between a party suspected of crime and the party alleged to have been injured. No member shall drink intoxicating hquor or enter any place where liquor is sold or furnished, exiH? Mr. ]\fERiTT. There is no specific provisions for the Quapaws for school purposes. Senator Townsend. Why was that omitted ? Senator Gore. It was an oversight. I offered that amendment. Senator Townsend. I was wondering why the department had omitted it. Senator Gore. It was specified for the Cherokees, Creeks, Choc- taws, Chickasaws, and Seminoles. I did not say Quapaw, and they had no authority to distribute among these schools, because we men- tioned these Five Tribes, and the situation in reference to the land is the same. They ought to share this appropriation. It is a very small territory — a part of one county. Senator Lane, i am informed by gentlemen familiar with the con- dition there that it is exactly as Senator Gore states, and it is a matter of equity to do as he requests. Senator Gore. There is no reason in the world why it should not be done. Senator Townsend. I can see no reason why it should not be done, but I was wondering why under the general provisions and adminis- tration of the office they had not been cared for. The Chairman. It is just like it was last year. Senator Gore. I know it is. iJNJJlAJN A±'l:'KUl:'ilIATIOJN J3I1j1j. 451- The Chairman. Why was it so last year ? Senator Gore. I got this appropriation the year before last and I omitted the Quapaws. Last year I got an amendment including the Quapaws and it went out in conference; it seems they did not under- stand it. I thought it was in there and Davenport thought it was in there. I corresponded with the superintendent of education and told him it was in there. It was an oversight that it went out. The Chairman. You want the Quapaws included ? Senator Gore. The Quapaws. I snail not insist on the Osages, because Mr. Meritt has suggested to me that th'^y are very w^. altliy people. Senator Lane. I move that the Quapaws be included. Mr. Meritt. The office would have no objection to that amend- ment so far as it is limited to the Quapaws. The Chairman. If there be no objection, the word "Quapaw" will be inserted after the word ''Chickasaw," in line 9, page 44, of the printed bill, and the item will then read as follows : The sum of $275,000, to be expended in the discretion of the Secretary of tiie In- terior, under rules and regulations to be prescribed by him, in aid of the common schools in the Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Quapaw, and Seminole Nations in Oklahoma, during the fiscal year ending June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and fifteen: Provided, That this appropriation shall not be subject to the limitation in section one of this act limiting the expenditure of money to educate children of less than one-fourth Indian blood. Mr. Meritt. Do you want an increase in that item ? Senator Gore. I asked for that. I will see Senator Owen aiid get him to bring that up again. It is reduced from $300,000 to $250,000. The Chairman. Do you resist the decrease? Senator Gore. Yes, I do; most strenuously and violently — other- wise, if necessary. The Chairman. Vociferously, if necessary? Senator Gore. Yes, sir. The Chairman. We will take up that question when we get to it. Senators, in due course I receive a vast deal of mail, some of which is addressed to the Committee on Indian Affairs, and much of it I am able to take care of myself, but there are some matters I am obliged to ask the committee to look into. Here is a matter, a letter addressed to Senator Chamberlain, which is from a couple of lawyers in Portland. It seems that some gentleman has a claim. I will refer tluit to Senator Lane. I think it ought to have some attention in some way, and you can confer with the honorable commissioner. Here I have a long letter from the First Assistant Secretary of the Interior, in which he suggests some legislation as follows: To encourage industrial activities and promote the welfare of Indians, and be it enacted, etc., that any funds belonging to Indian tribes and now held in trust by the United States, which are not re- quired to reimburse the United States, etc. I presume you are very familiar with it. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I do not know that the committee has the ,)<)wer to introduce a bill. I never heard of a bill being introduced by the committee in the first instance. Senator Townsend, would y >:.i look into that as a subcommittee ? ' 432 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Townsend. I have so many matters pending that I am afraid I will neglect it. i. i t The Chairman. Here is another letter. The Secretary of the In- terior wants the following legislation introduced. I am going to prepare that bill and introduce it. Then, here is a communication that has come to the committee Senator Lane. Is it something complimentary? The Chairman. Yes. Senator Lane. I had one of those. It is a reflection on the char- acter of some people. issuance of patent to the northern MINNESOTA CONFERENCE, M. E. CHURCH. The Chairman. The next item is No. 66^, page 27 of the printed bill: The Secretary of the Interior be, and he is hereby, authorized and directed to issue to the Northern Minnesota Conference of the Methodist Episcopal Church a patent in fee to lot one, section nineteen, township sixty-five north, range twenty-one west of the fourth principal meridian, State of Minnesota. Mr. Meritt. We would Hke to have that item stricken from the bill for the reason that a part of the land described in the item is now occupied by certain Indians for their homes. ^ These Indians have their children attending the schools and are living around the agency, and we feel it would be an injustice to these Indians to give a patent to his land t^t this time. A little later we will be glad to give this church organization a patent for sufficient land to cover their needs. Senator Gronna. How much land is involved, Mr. Commissioner? Do you know what the area is ? Mr. Meritt. I think there is about 80 acres involved here. The interests of the church will be protected, and we will be glad, a little bit later, to give them sufficient land to meet their needs. Senator Lane. Have they an interest in it? Mr. Meritt. They have no legal or equitable title to this land. Senator Lane. Then why should the Government give them a legal or equitable title ? Mr. Meritt. To all of this land, I should say. They have an equitable title to a part of it. They have been permitted to build a church there, and doing good work among those Indians, and it has been the policy of the Congress to give these church organizabions title to land on which they conduct their work. Senator Gronna. I suppose there would be no objection to giving them title to a lot, say one-half of an acre, or an acre, or something of that sorb, in order to protect their property? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; not at all. We Avill see that the interests of this organization are fully protected. The Chairman. If there is no objection that will be stricken out. INDIAN SCHOOL, WAHPETON, N. DAK. The Chairman. I invite your attention to item No. 104, page 35, of the printed bill, page 547 of the hearings: ''For support and educa- tion of two hundred Indian pupils at the Indian School, Wahpeton, North Dakota, including pay of superintendent, $35,200; for general INDIAN APPKOPKIATION BILL. 45i5 repairs and improvements, $3,000; in all, $38,200. Estimated, 1915, $40,200." I have just received the following communication in respect thereto from the Assistant Secretary of the Interior : Department of the Interior, Washington, April 3, 1914. My Dear Senator: I have your letter of March 26, with reference to an amend- ment to H. R. 12579, intended to be proposed by Senator McCumber, providing for increased appropriations for the Indian school at Wahpeton, N. Dak. The proposed extension to power plant, improvement of water system, and addi- tion to power plant are greatly needed at the Wahpeton school, as the space to be heated at the school has been more than doubled since the present superintendent took charge, while the capacity of the power plant has remained the same; and the water supply is not at all satisfactory. The capacity of the dormitories at the Wahpeton school has been increased within the last two years from 80 pupils to 200, while no additional class rooms have been provided, making it necessary that a new school building be erected. The dining- room capacity is the same as when the capacity of the school was smaller. It is suggested that the present school building be converted into a domestic building, containing pupils' dining room and kitchen, and providing quarters for giving domestic science instruction, for which there is no adequate provision at present. This arrangement will provide sufficient dining-room capacity for an enrollment of ■200 children. It is not believed that it is necessary to increase the dormitory capacity beyond 200, but it is very necessary that the new school building be converted into a domestic building. It is therefore recommended that the following be introduced instead of the amend- ment intended to be introduced by Senator McCumber: "For support and education of two hundred Indian pupils at the Indian school, Wahpeton, North Dakota, and pay of superintendent, $35,200; for general repairs and improvements, $5,000; for extension to power plant, improvement of water system, and addition to power plant, $15,000; for school building and remodeling of present school building into domestic building, $30,000; in all, $85,200." Very truly, yours, A. A. Jones, First Assistant Secretary. Hon. Henry F. Ashurst. Chairman Committee on Indian Affairs, United States Senate. Senator Lane. Here is another school where it requires one em- ployee to about seven pupils; a little less, between six and seven. Senator Gronna. 1 was going to say, Mr. Chairman, that this mat- ter was taken up with the superintendent at this school, who was very reluctant about writing anything to either of the two Senators from North Dakota, but he has given me some information that leads me to believe that it is not only important but very appropriate that this appropriation should be increased. There is a possibihty of making this a large and a very good school. He states in his letter to me that he could build this school up to at least an enrollment of 400 or 500 pupils. You will understand that while this is a new reservation school, it is close up to two reservations, the Standing Kock and the Cheyenne River Agency and the Fort Bertholf Agency. He states m his letter that he has turned away more than 50 Indian pupils, actually turned them away, because there was no room and they could not be taken care of; and with the report from the department, I trust that this committee will give us the increase suggested by them. It is very satisfactory to me and I certainly shall not ask for any more than what is proposed in the report from the department. The Chairman. Does that meet your approbation, Mr. MeritU Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; this report was prepared m the Indian Office and represents the views of the com.missioner. 434 INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. The Chairman. Then you acquiesce in it, of course, as you pre- pared it? Mr. Meritt. He would be glad to have this amendment incor- porated in the bill. Senator Ijane. Do you not think that the school needs checking up on its expenses ? Mr. Meritt. I consider that one employee to every seven pupils at a boarding school is too high. It is estimated that the right num- ber would be about one employee to every 10 or 12 pupils in boarding' schools, but it should be remembered that a number of these employees are Indian employees who receive salaries of $300 a year. Senator Lane. What do they do ? . ^ Mr. Meritt. One is a band leader, and another is a shoe and harness maker— both receive $300 a year; Those are Indian boys at the school. The salary list is found on page 549 of the House hearings. The total salaries at this school amount to $15,150. The expenses of this school have been rather high heretofore. That was due partly to the fact that they have been making a good many improve nents at that school. It has been increased by an enroll- ment from 80 to 200 within the last year and a half or two years. I feel, however, that we should have fewer employees at this school or increase the attendance. Senator Gronna. I might state, Mr. Chairman, that it is abso- lutely true as the commissioner has stated, that in the past the school has not been run the way it should be, but that was due to the fact that when the present superintendent took it there were onlv 60 pupils enrolled, and it was in a deplorable condition; and anyone knows that it costs just as much to heat a school building with 60 pupils in it as it does to heat one with 200 or 500 pupils, and that is why the expenses have been so large per capita. Mr. IiIeritt. The Indian Office will be glad to see the amendments in the bill. The Chairman. If there is no objection to the adoption of the amendment as prepared, it will be approved. The amendment was agreed to. The Chairman. On page 31 of the comparison, item No. 86, Indian school at Genoa, Nebr. We have not passed that. I have had it marked over for several days, and I do not recall why it was put over. Mr. Meritt. Senator Hitchcock has an amendment he wishes to offer, Mr. Chairman. INDIAN SCHOOL AT FORT TOTTEN, N. DAK. Genator Gronna. I think the item for appropriation for Fort Totten was passed over at my request. The Chairman. It may be, but my book shows that adopted. We will recur to it. Senator Gronna. I simply want to dispose of it. The Chairman. That is item No. 103, page 35 of the comparison: For support and education of four hundred Indian pupils at Fort Totten Indian school Fort Totten, North Dakota, and for pay of superintendent, $68,500; for general repairs and improvements, $6,000; for construction of power house recently destroyed by fire, and for installation, repair, and improvement of heating and lighting plant, $15,000, to be immediately available; in all, $89,500. INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. 435 Senator Gronna. I made a request for an appropriation of $1,000 for a fair. I have talked with a representative from Fort Totten, Mr. Ignatius Court, who is now here. I find that the appropriation made for the dairy barn is not sufficient. The Chairman. $5,000. Senator Gronna. Yes; they need at least $6,000, and I think we ought to reconsider that vote and make that $6,000 and let the fair proposition go, because it is absolutely necessary to have the barn. Mr. Meritt. Our estimates were for $6,000. The Chairman. On page 35 of the comparison, fine 17, after the figures on that line it is proposed to insert for the barn $6,000 instead of $5,000. The question is on reconsidering the vote. As many as are in' favor say "aye.'' The contrary, ''no." The motion to reconsider was agreed to. The Chairman. Now, the question is on the $6,000 item. The motion to increase the item to $6,000 was agreed to. The Chairman. You do not wish now, under the circumstances, to pursue the appropriation for the fair ? Senator Gronna. No; we will consider that completed. PER CAPITA PAYMENTS FROM SURPLUS FUNDS. The Chairman. Item No. 143, not found in the printed comparison: That the Secretary of the Treasury be, and he is hereby, authorized to pay, without further appropriation, upon the usual certification by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Auditor for the Interior Department, any due and unpaid shares of Indians in per capita payments, which are now, or hereafter may become, unavailable by reason of the funds having been covered into the surplus fund under section five of the act of June twentieth, eighteen hundred and seventy-four (Eighteenth Statutes at Large, page one hundred and ten) ; and he shall issue appropriation warrants from from time to time, covering the items so paid. Mr. Meritt. We will not ask that legislation on this bill. A sepa- rate bill has been introduced in the House and I think a favoraole report has been made on it, and we will ask that that be deferred. ^ The Chairman. That, then, is rejected so far as this bill is con- cerned. Is there any objection? There being none, it is so ordered. REPAIRS MILITARY POST, FORT WASHAKIE, WYO. The Chairman. The next item is No. 166 J, page 61 of the printed bill: For rej)airs at the old abandoned military post of Fort Washakie, on the Wind River Reservation, Wyoming, $1,732.82, from the amount heretofore collected as rentals of the buildings at said post. Mr. Meritt. That item was not estimated for by the department, but we would be glad to see it included in the bill. Senator Lane. What is the occasion ? What do you want to use it for ? Mr. Meritt. The justification for this item reads as follows: March 5, 1914, The act making appropriations for the current and contingent expenses of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, etc., approved June 30, 1913, carries an item "For repairs at the old abandoned military post of Fort Washakie, on the Wind River Reserva- 'r^ 39746— PT 2— 14 2 43.6 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILX.. tion, Wyo., $1,427, from the amount heretofore collected as rentals of the buildings at said post. ' ' The agency headquarters for the Wind River Reservation have recently beeii moved to th"e site occupied by the former military post of Fort Washakie. Since this post was abandoned by the military, a number of buildings have been rented to traders and others and the proceeds of such rentals covered into the Treasury of the United States. The removal of the agency headquarters necessitated much addi- tional repair work required to place these buildings in condition for agency use. There was expended during the fiscal year 1913 in construction and repair work at this site approximately $15,000 from the appropriation "Indian school and agency buildings, 1913," and during the present fiscal year the sum of $2,700 approximately has been expended in addition to the $1,427 appropriated by the act of June 30, 1912, above cited. There is, however, much additional repair work necessary on the buildings at old Fort Washakie in order that the affairs of the Indians of the Shoshone Reservation* may be properly administered, which repairs have not been made on account of the scarcity of funds applicable. As the funds referred to in the proposed amendment were derived from rentals of the buildings on which they are to be expended, it would appear that no objection should be made to this amendment. Senator Gronna. It is a small matter. I think it ought to be allowed. I move that it be allowed. The Chairman. The question is on the motion of the Senator from North Dakota. The item was agreed to. The Chairman. The next item is No. 168^, page 62 of the printed comparison : For continuing the work of constructing roads and bridges within the diminished Shoshone or Wind River Reservation in Wyoming, $25,000, said sum to be reimbursed from any funds which are now or may be hereafter placed in the Treasury to the credit of the said Indians. Senator Townsend. Did I not understand that you were not going to ask for that item ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; I said we did not ask for that item in our regular estimates, but it was included in the estimates made on the bin by Mr. Mondell, of Wyoming. The Chairman. Is there any objection? Senator Townsend. No. Mr. Meritt. This item was not estimated for by the department, but was included in the bill by the House committee on the recom- mendation of Representative Mondell, of Wyoming. Senator Lane. That is reimbursable fund? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. What is the object of building these roads? Who will benefit thereby, the Indians mostly or the whites ? Mr. Meritt. It seems that the counties surrounding this reservation have constructed very good roads. They have also done an unusual thing by building bridges across the streams bordering on the reser- vation. The counties have no authority to expend their funds within the reservation to complete this system of public roads. These roads will be of benefit to the Indians on this reservation. It is a large reservation. The roads now are in a very deplorable condition, and the Indians, as well as the white people, find it difficult to traverse these roads . The superintendent of that reservation has recommended this item, and the office interposes no objection to it. Senator Lane. Have these Indians funds to their credit ? Mr. Meritt. They have money to their credit. Senator Lane. How much money have they? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 437 Mr. Meritt. Part of those funds is hypothecated on account of the construction of that irrigation project. . The Chairman. That will be sufficient, will it? That is all you ask, is it, $25,000 ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator IjAne. How much money have they? Mr. Meritt. They have $31,779 in the Treasury. Senator Lane. How much property have they? Mr. Meritt. They have tribal and individual property valued at $2,972,069. Senator Lane. How much have you got out against that as a mortgage ? Mr. Meritt. The irrigation project on that reservation cost about $800,000, and that is the only outstanding obligation against the tribe. Senator Lane. What do the Indians do for a living ? Mr. Meritt. They do some farming and some stock raising, and' it is claimed that some of their land is valuable for mineral purposes. Senator Lane. Are they prosperous ? Mr. Meritt. They are not in as bad condition as some of the Indians on other reservations, but I would not say that they are prosperous. The Indians, especially the full-blood Indians, are not particularly prosperous on any Indian reservation, except in rare cases. Senator Lane. Are they farming pretty successfully, do you think, or only a small portion that are doing that? Mr. Meritt. Only a small portion are farming. Senator Lane. ELave they been furnished with tools and instru- ments? Are you providing for that? Mr. Meritt. We are providing for that in this bill. Senator; we are asking for that. Senator Lane. Are there more or less white people farming their land than there are Indians ? Mr. Meritt. Their lands are leased by white people in some cases. We have here a statement of the Indian population, appearing on page 699 of the House hearings, which is as follows: Indian population 1, 715 Acreage of reservation area 318, 543 Acreage of agricultural land - 207, 251 Acreage allotted lands 224, 567 Acreage under ditch 104, 544 Acreage cultivated by Indians 7, 500 Acreage irrigated 7, 500 Senator Lane. Do you mean to say that the Indians are actually cultivating with the plough and harrow 7,500 acres of land there? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; those Indians have begun to farm. Senator Lane. The white men are cultivating how much of that land? Mr. Meritt. The white people have bought some of that land. I have not the exact figures here. Senator Lane. About how much interest have they in these roads ? Mr. Meritt. They have very Uttle on that reservation, Senator. Senator Lane. These roads are not constructed for the benefit of the white people, you think ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. \ 438 IISTDIAIT APPROPRIATION BILL. The Chairman. If there is no objection to the item the same will be agreed to. The item was agreed to. REPEAL OF SECTION 26 INDIAN APPROPRIATION ACT. The Chairman. The next item is No. 161, page 62, of the printed comparison; page 707, of the hearings. Sec. 25. Section twenty-six of the Indian appropriation act of June thirtieth, nine- teen hundred and thirteen (Public, numbered four), is hereby repealed. It seems as if last year the committee imposed a vast deal of work on the Indian Department, and they say in the justification: • We are merely asking for the repeal of section 26 of the last Indian appropriation act, and we do this for the reason that this pro^dsion of law requires us to do a great deal of extra work, and the office considers it very largely unnecessary work. No appro- priation was provided to carry out that work, and we are unable, with our present clerical help, to do the work. Unless Congress wants to give us an appropriation of $12,000, we ask that this provision of law be repealed. It is practically impossible to carry out that provision of law fully. I think we might incorporate as a part of the justification the jjrovision of law that we propose to repeal. The provision is found on page 707 of the hearings that is proposed to be repealed. Senator Lane. Your system of accounting in the department is not everything that you desire, is it ? Mr. AIeritt. No, sir. We have a rather complicated accounting system in the Indian Service, largely because of the conditions under which we are required to work. We have about 140 Indian superin- tendents, and we have probably more specific appropriations than any other bureau of the Government, and our work is necessarily compli- cated on that account. If the Congress will give us an appropriation of $12,000, we will attempt to carry out the legislation of the past year, but without this appropriation we are unable to do the work required by law. Senator Lane. How much would it require to put into the depart- ment a simple and effective method of handling the accounts there so that they could be easily checked over and verified ? Mr. Meritt. The oflGice within the last two years has attempted to improve the accounting system heretofore in vogue. It would re- quire probably $10,000 to put in a new accounting system and new books at the office and at the agencies. Senator Lane. If you had that, would it simplify your work and put things in shape so that you could have less help; need less help, or the help could work more efficiently ? _ Mr. Meritt. The work of the Indian Service is increasing all the time, because of the fact that the reservations are being opened, and whenever a reservation is opened we no longer have a tribal propo- sition, but we have individual propositions, and it requires a great deal of additional work on an opened reservation, when allotments are made, because of the fact that we are attending to individual Indian's moneys and looking after the leasing of allotments and the sale of allotments. Senator Lane. It increases the detail work? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Was there not a sort of tentative plan submitted to your department by some bureau or board that was appointed for that nnrrtnsA 2 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 439 Mr Meritt. The economy commission submitted a tentative plan, but theu' plan was considered so complicated by the office that we thought that we would be in worse condition than we are now if we adopted it. We are trying to improve the system as we have funds available, but this item of legislation carried in the last Indian ap- propriation act we consider entirely impracticable, as it would entail on the office unnecessary work, and would not bring about any im- proved conditions. We think that section 26 should be repealed. Senator Lane. All right. Senator Townsend. That was the proposition you put in last year? Senator Lane. We put it in last year, but we did not give them the money. They refused to give them enough money to carry it into effect. Senator Townsend. There was not any asked for, was there ? Senator Lane. Yes ; we asked it here, but it was thrown out in conference, I think, was it not ? Mr. Meritt. The Senate committee, I believe, provided $12,000 to carry on this work, and the appropriation was stricken out in con- ference; but there was placed upon us the burden of doing this addi- tional work. ^ Senator Lane. They ought to be allowed to do it, and we should give them means; my understanding is that the system is one that is very hard to secure data from without a great deal of work, is it not? JVir. Meritt. The bookkeeping in the Indian Service presents rather a comphcated problem, even under the most simple system, because of the large number of reservations, the great number of laws which we are obliged to comply with, and the fact that we have different conditions on each reservation. Senator Lane. I guess the real truth is the system of simplification ought to begin in Congress, in our laws; they should be digested and some repealed, a lot of them, in order to work successfully for the Indians. The Chairman. Is there any objection to the ehmination of section 26 from last year's appropriation biU? There being no objection, it is agreed to. (Thereupon, at 3.30 o'clock p. m., Friday, April 3, the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Saturday, April 4, 1914, at 2 o'clock p. m.) SATURDAY APRIIi 4, 1914. (The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 2 o'clock p. m., and adjourned to Monday, April 6, 1914, without transacting any business.) MONDAY, APBIL 6, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Ashurst (chairman). Lane, Robinson, Clapp, Townsend, and Fall. The Chairman. The committee will come to order. On Saturday last the committee convened for a few moments and concluded all items then before it save and except item No. 86, being the Indian school at Genoa, Nebr. Senator Hitchcock is not present to-day, so that wiQ be passed over. The Oklahoma items wiQ be passed by reason of the enforced absence of Senator Owen. 440 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. DISEASES AMONG THE INDIANS. The Chairman. The health items are before us for consideration. They were referred to a committee of which Senator Robinson is chairman. Senator Robinson. Mr. Chairman, I am ready to report. The sub- committee on the health items desires to submit the following report: On page 4, hne 20, after the colon, insert the following proviso: Provided, That not to exceed $100,000 of the amount herein appropriated may be expended in the erection, equipment, and maintenance of camp and pavilion hos- pitals for the use of Indians afflicted with tuberculosis or trachoma. No hospital shall be constructed at a cost to exceed $12,500. Said sum to be immediately avail- able and to remain available until expended. Said hospital to be constructed in the open market under the supervision of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. The Chairman. That allows 1100,000 of the $260,000 to be taken for this purpose ? Senator Robinson. Yes, sir. The Indian Bureau informs me that that is about as large a fund as they think they can successfully use during the coming year, and that it would not be advisable to appro- priate a larger sum for the reason that they do not think they would be able to use it. The language has been gone over by. Mr. Meritt and the doctor in charge of that work, and the members of the subcom- mittee have agreed upon it. I move that the amendment be agreed to. Senator Lane. It should be: '^The said hospitals to be constructed upon bids made in the open." Senator Robinson. The language is ''in the open market." It was disclosed that it could be constructed much more cheaply in that way than upon competitive bids. Senator Lane. What does it mean by ''open market," then? I thought it was on bids — constructed on bids made in the open market. Mr. Meritt. That means that we can go into the local community where the hospital is to be constructed and buy material, instead of advertising it as required by law. It is estimated that we can save probably 20 per cent of the cost of constructing these hospitals. Senator Robinson. I went into that matter at length with Dr. Murphy, and he had detailed estimates and figures and was firmly of the conviction that it would save the Government at least 20 per cent in the work, and for that reason I prepared this amendment. Senator Townsend. Do I understand that that provides simply for one hospital ? Senator Robinson. No; for such number as the Commissioner of Indian Affairs may find it necessary and practicable to construct. But the limitation as to the cost of any one hospital is S12,500; that is, no hospital under this provision shall be constructed at a cost exceeding $12,500. Senator Townsend. This says "said hospital." That is a mistake. The Chairman. It is a typographical error. Senator Robinson. I thank you for calling my attention to it. The original was plural. The Chairman. That correction will be made in the absence of objection. The question is on the motion of the Senator from Arkansas to adopt the amendment he proposes as chairman of the subcommittee. The amendment was agreed to. INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. 441 The Chairman. That amendment will be irscrt^d after the figures on line 20, page 4, of the printed bill. There are a number of health items, you will remember, Senator Robinson, on typewritten sheets prepared in the Indian Office. Senator Robinson. I did not understand that there was any objection with regard to the rest of them. Senator Townsend. No ; they were passed over. Suppose we now take them up? Senator Robinson. There was no other question raised, but we are ready to proceed with them. As a matter of fact, that was the only item that was referred to this subcommittee. However, I recall that you, Mr. Chairman, afterwards stat- d that they had all been referred to us, but we do not know^ anything beyond that that requires amendment. The Chairman. Then we will go through with them. Senator Robinson. There is another correction on page 4, in the second proviso. It should be '' Provided further ." Of course that is a correction that will be made by the clerk. The Chairman. That correction will be made. Senator Townsend. Then that item stands at $260,000';' Senator Robinson. No; I was just about to call attention to that. Mr. Meritt says that will necessitate an increase of Mr. Meritt. Fifty, thousand dollars. Senator Robinson. Fifty thousa^nd elollars; so that the total item will read "three hundred and ten thousand elollars'^ instead of "two hundreel aud sixty thousanel dollars." I move that amerdment. Senator Fall. Have you any specific items here ? Senator Robinson. No. Senator Fall. Why does it necessitate a change? ^ Senator Robinson. Because $100,000 is coming out of this. We did not suppose we could spare more than $50,000 of that for this par- ticular purpose, and it is necessary to increase the total appropriation. Senator Fall. In other words, you are asking for more than was estimated by the department? Mr. Meritt. We could use a good deal more money for this work, as it is needed in the field. Senator Robinson. This is a class of work that has been neglected, and it is of very great importance. If there is any doubt about the importance of it or the necessity for it Senator Fall. I have no doubt of it; I have no doubt as to the necessity for it. I think it was a very natural question, as the appro- priation asked for this purpose was $260,000. Senator Townsend. Two hundred thousand dollars is all they asked for. Senator Fall. With no appropriation for hospitals. Now, you make an appropriation of $100,000 for hospitals, and all you state that is needed in addition for hospitals is $50,000. Senator Robinson. The estimate for that item was $200,000. The House increased it to $260,000, and the Senate havmg made it obligatory or designing to make it obligatory on the bureau to con- struct these camp and pavilion hospitals to cost $100,000, the i^^m is only therefore $10,000 in excess of the original estimate as made by the bureau, not including the $100,000. . Senator Fall. That explanation is very lucid, Mr. Chairman. 442 INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. Mi\ Meritt. I might say that we estimated for a specific appropri- ation for a hospital on the Pima Reservation, $25,000; a specific appropriation for a hospital on the Blackfeet Reservation, $25,000; and another specific appropriation for a hospital on the Pine Ridge Reservation, which we will not ask for, in view of the fact that the House committee and the Senate committee wanted these specific items brought within this general item. Senator Townsend. Was that $60,000 added by the House for the purpose of constructing these hospitals ? What did they add $60,000 f or « Mr. Meritt. The House ehminated from the bill the specific request of the department for hospitals at the Pima Reservation, the Blackfeet Reservation, and the Pine Ridge Reservation, and they made this lump-sum appropriation of $50,000 instead of $75,000 asked for by the department for those three hospitals. The com- mittee authorized to investigate the health conditions among Indians found deplorable conditions existing on the various reservations, and they are of the opinion that we should have tent hospitals, instead of brick hospitals constructed at a cost of about $25,000. We feel that we can construct more hospitals out of this $100,000 on the camp- hospital idea basis than we could if we should construct brick hos- pitals, as has been done heretofore. Senator Townsend. I have no objection to your having all the money you need for this purpose, but I do not think yet that you have explained that so that we can understand just what we are appropriat- ing for. The House struck out how many thousand dollars for hos- pital purposes ? Mr. Meritt. The House struck out $25,000 for the Pima hospital, $25,000 for the hospital on the Blackfeet Reservation, and $25,000 for the hospital on the Pine Ridge Reservation. They also struck out the item of $55,000 for buildings and purchase of land for Fort Lapwai sanatorium, making $130,000, and they increased our estimate of $200,000 for general health work to $260,000, and made applicable $50,000 of that appropriation for hospitals. Senator Robinson. So the effect of this amendment will be to practically make available for all these purposes about the same amount as that estimated for in the beginning, but it will change the use of it so far as hospitals are concerned; instead of constructing three or four costly hospitals, there will be quite a number of tempo- rary or camp hospitals constructed ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Outside of which you are only estimating for $70,000. There was a $70,000 estimate that you made for some purpose outside of these hospitals. That is, all you asked for was $70,000. If they have stricken out $130,000 of your $200,000, then you ask for $70,000 outside of these three or four items you have mentioned ? Mr. Meritt. But the general item is so worded that we could use part of that appropriation for small hospitals. Senator Townsend. Will you tell the committee what you are going to do with the $310,000? Mr. Meritt. It is estimated that there are 65,000 Indians in the United States now suffering with trachoma. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 443 Senator Fall. If you are going to treat those with the $100,000, you have $210,000 left. What are you going to do with that? Mr. Meritt. It is also estimated that 12 per cent of the Indians in the United States are afflicted with tuberculosis. Senator Fall. That goes in under the $100,000. Mr. Meritt. No. sir; we are going to take care of the trachoma people and also the tuberculosis people partly out of this general lund. Senator Fall. But you are precluded from taking anything except that $100,000. Senator Robinson. No. Senator Fall. That is for the erection of buildings ? Senator Robinson. That is for the erection of buildings. Senator Fall. And those buildings you use for treatment ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. There is nothing in the law to prevent them from treating patients afflicted with either trachoma or tuberculosis other than in the camp hospitals, and conditions might exist where they would want to do this. The object of this appropriation is not to restrict the power of the department to deal with these diseases, but to make ^certain that they will take hold of it in this definite and practical way in addition to the manner in which they are now handling it. Senator Fall. Mr. Meritt says that $50,000 of this amount that was appropriated by the House is to be for the purpose of erecting hospitals. Senator Robinson. No; in the original estimate it was $75,000 for three hospitals at the ]3oints which he named. The House saw fit to disallow those specific items for certain hospitals and made a general appropriation of $260,000 for health purposes, giving the department wide latitude as to how it should use that $260,000. Now, we by this amendment have imposed upon them the obligation of using a certain part of this fund for specific purposes not definitely mentioned in the House items, and we say if tney are required to use $100,000 of this fund, the total should be increased to $310,000. Senator Fall. I have no objection to it. Senator Townsend. I have no objection to it, only I stiU do not think it is clear. I do not think we ought to appropriate money in that way. I think they ought to have it; I think you can use a large sum of money in that way. Senator Robinson. I think they could use twice that much if they had the funds to apply to it. Senator Townsend. I have no objection to it, because I am in favor of using money for the health of the Indians. The Chairman. The question is on the motion of the Senator from Arkansas, that the item on line 20, page 4, read ^^$310,000" instead of '^$260,000. " The amendment was agreed to. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, I have another amendment that I would Hke to offer, and that is to strike out the proviso beginning on line 13, page 5. That item reads as follows: Provided further, That the Secretary of the Interior may, in his discretion, employ physicians regularly licensed to practice to aid in carrying out the provisions of this paragraph without requiring such employed physicians to pass any civil-service examination. 444 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. That item was incorporated in the House bill without our request, I understand, on the recommendation of Representative Miller, of Min- nesota. We would like to have that item stricken from the bill. The Chairman. That has already been done. Senator Fall. That was done by this committee. The Chairman. Yes; commencing with the word ''Provided,'' on line 13 of page 5, down to the word '^ examination/' on line 17. HOSPITAL ON THE GILA RIVER RESERVATION. The Chairman. The next is item No, 39, not in the printed bill. It is a new item. Discussio.n on page 337 of the hearings as follows: ♦ For constructing, equipping, and maintaining a hospital on the Gila River Reser- vation for the use and benefit of the Pima and such other Indians as the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs may designate, $25,000. Mr. Meritt. We will not ask for that specific item in this particular bill. We will provide for this out of the general lump-sum appropria- tion. The Chairman. In the absence of objection, that is disposed of. sanatorium at fort LAPWAI, IDAHO. The Chairman. The next item is No. 54, not in the bill, but dis- cussed on page 385 of the hearings, as follows: For new buildings and their proper equipment at the sanatorium at Fort Lapwai, Idaho, including the purchase of improvements on land to be deeded to the Govern- ment by the school board of district numbered fifty-aeven, State of Idaho, $55,000. Do you want to take care of that item out of the general appropria- tion, Mr. Commissioner? Senator Robinson. That was not printed in the bill as it passed the House, either. Mr. Meritt. No, sir; Senator Brady has offered an amendment to this item in( reasing it to $C5,000. We will be satisfied to have our estimate in the bill. Senator Fall. The Hijuse refused to allov\^ you o.rxy of these spe- cific appropriations? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senat(^r Fall. You asked for $50,000 and the House increased it, but they refused to allow ar^y of these specific items? Mr. Meritt. This is ft>r buildings and pun base of land for a sana- torium already establishe('. The other amount that has already been allowed will be used for the constru-^ tion of new hospitals in accordance with the amendment of Senator Robinson. Senator Robinson. How mu^h land have they now? Mr. Meritt. There is a small tract of land that has been sold to the school board, and they have constructed a new school building and no longer need this land, which is right in the center of the sanatorium grounds, and we feel that the Government, in order to protect this property, should buy this land. Only three or four thousand dollars will be used for that purpose. Senator Townsend. How many patients have you there ? Mr. Meritt. I think there are about 75 or 100 patients — about a hundred patients. The school was converted into this sanatorium for the care of incipient cases of tuberculosis among school children. INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILT.. 445 Senator Fall. You do not know, of course, if it was for school purposes, how much it was ? Mr. Meritt. I will get the figures from the office. It has been carried on for a number of years. Senator Robinson. How many j)eoi)le are at that school? Mr. Meritt. One hundred, at this time. Senator Robinson. You say you do not know how much has already been expended in the purchase of buildings '( Senator Fall. The building for which this money was expended was a school? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. And you are using that as a hospital ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; we are using it as a hospital and sanatorium school for incipient cases of tuberculosis among school children. Senator Townsend. Is it for one particular tribe ? Mr. Meritt. They are mostly from the State of Idaho. They are not necessarily required to be from that State, but we take children from the Northwest. Senator Fall. It was all school property, was it '? ^ Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Fall. And you established a sanatorium for school children ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Fall. Was that under the appropriation for schools or have you made a separate appropriation for the establishment of a sanatorium ? Mr. Meritt. Prior to the establishment of a sanatorium, this school was conducted out of the lump-sum appropriation for Indian schools. This was turned into a sanatorium. Senator Fall. How did you turn it into that ? That is what I want to know. Mr. Meritt. By administrative action. Senator Fall. You did not get any specific appropriation for it? Mr. MiiRiTT. No,, sir; there were so many tubercular cases in that school Senator Fall. Why, by administrative action, can you not turn it back? You turned it over to the sanatorium; why do you need to buy it from the school ? Mr. Meritt. The school board that owns this property is a State school board, and it is necessary to buy their title to the land. Senator Fall. It is not an Indian school ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. • r u o Senator Townsend. How much are you paying lor that ( Mr. Meritt. We are paying about $3,500. That is found on page 386 of the House hearings, at the bottom of the page^ Senator Townsend. TTow much are you asking tor, ^55,000? Mr Meritt. Yes, sir. Dr. Murphy is here; he is our medical super- visor, and he can explain the details of this appropriation. Senator Townsend. How does this differ from what we are pro- posing to do here now-establish local hospitals or temporary hos- pitals'^f or the treatQient of these diseases ? Dr Murphy. We have four sanatorium hospitals for the treat- ment of tuberculous pupils -one at Fort Lapwai, one at Phoeiiix one at Toledo, Iowa, and one at Laguna, N. Mex.-Laguna being 446 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. the smallest one. These sanatoria are intended for pupils who can not remain at the Indian schools for healthy pupils on account of incipient tuberculosis. We wish to educate them and at the same time give them the best advantages of treatment. Senator Townsend. Do you get pupils there from a distance? Dr. Murphy. We get pupils for the Fort Lapwai sanatorium from all over the Northwest. The Phoenix sanatonum takes pupils from all over the Southwest, and the sanatorium at Toledo, Iowa, takes takes them from the Northeastern section of the country. We are trying to get some place where we can place incipient cases of tuber- culosis under proper treatment and still extend to them a certain amount of education. ^ ^ Senator Townsend. You have no difficulty in getting children who are afflicted with tuberculosis to go to those schools ? Dr. Murphy. There is a waiting list at every one of our sanatoria. The Fort Lapwai sanatorium has a long waiting list, and that is the reason for our attempting to increase the size of this sanatorium. It is intended, I will say, only for incipient cases among children of school age. Senator Eobinson. What is the present capacity of that sana- torium ? Dr. Murphy. One hundred. Senator Robinson. What would be its capacity if this appropria- tion were made and the fund expended ? Dr. Muhphy. The capacity will be increased by a hospital build- ing, which will increase the capacity about 30 patients, and then we expect to put in a dining room and kitchen, which will give a further capacity, m another building; of about 24 patients. I would say about 50 patients additional wiU be provided for in case this is passed. Senator Fall. How much appropriation are you getting for school purposes at ^ this same place? Are you getting any other moneys out of this bill anywhere, or out of the general appropriation ? Dr. Murphy. We are supporting this sanatorium now entirely from the general appropriation for reheving distress. Senator Robinson. Have you any school there that is operated separately from the sanatorium and which is maintained at the expense of the Government?' Dr. Murphy. Not at Fort Lapwai itself. The only school on the reservation is a day school which is about forty or fifty miles from this particular location. The children on the reservation there are largely attending pubUc schools. Senator Robinson. At Phoenix, you know, there is a large Indian school and the sanatorium that you maintain there is available for pupils of that school ? Dr. Murphy. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. If I understand you correctly, at Fort Lapwai there is no school there, but the Indians on the reservation are per- mitted to use the sanatorium? Dr. Murphy. Well, not unless they are tubercular. Senator Townsend. This is the way I look at this. Senator Robin- son: We have already provided under that amendment for the ac- commodation of Indians, young and old, who are afflicted with tubercu- INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 447 losis or trachoma. We have an institution here at Fort Lapwai that accomdodates one hundred pupils. They want to enlarge that— — Senator Robinson. And improve it. Senator Townsend. And improve it. They want $55,000 for that purpose. Now, have we not provided enough money here to take care of these children outside, at schools and homes where they live ? Senator Townsend. I make this suggestion. I hardly think the Commissioner of Indian Affairs would establish a camp hospital in the neighborhood of this Fort Lapwai Sanatorium unless that was to be abandoned. I should imagine that in designating the location of the various camp hospitals which he will establish under that amendment, that he will probably take the reservations that have not now avail- able sanatoria which maybe reached by afflicted Indians, and that the appropriation of the $10,000, of course, is totally inadequate to pro- vide facihties for the treatment of all the Indians who are afflicted with tuberculosis. It is a mere beginning of the work, which will have to be carried on and extended through many years if it is ever to be made a benefit and far reaching enough to reach the real trouble, to provide convenient treatment and instruction to the large number of those who are afflicted. Senator Townsend. I reahze that, but all they propose to care for extra is thirty. Senator Robinson. Yes ; but it occurs to me the expenditure is rather out of proportion to the benefit that would seem to accrue from it. That was the reason I asked the question. He said approximately fifty. Senator Fall. That seems to be for buildings ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; for buildings and pmxhase of land. Senator Fall. And the purchase of land, you say, is only about $3,000 ? Mr Meritt $3 500. Senator Fall. It strikes me the appropriation is excessive. The other items that I have had my attention called to in this bill have all been so clearly and definitely explained that I am sorry I can not catch just exactly what this is in this health item. How much are you gomg to take of the $310,000 of this appropriation, provided for m the amendment which has just been adopted by the committee? Of the $310,000 $100,000 i^ to be applied for the erection of further hospitals, et':'., for Indians at $12,500 each. Mr. Meritt. Not to exceed that amount. Senator Fall. Yes. What goes with the $210,000? 'Are these hospitals to be supported out of that S210,000-these eight hospitals ? ]\Ir M^ERiTT Ye^ "^ir Senator Fall. How much of that $210,000 goes to this particular sanatorium, to run it now, or do you get support from some other item in the bill? , , . - -i.- i.-_ Mr. Meritt. No, sh. We support the sanatorium at this time from this particular health item. j j •- o Senator Fall. From this $260,000 as we have amended it ^ Mr M^eritt Yes sir Senator Fall. This $210,000 is for this purpose. Then, you will have $210,000 for the support of all these hospitals, including this hospital here. Now, will you take into consideration that you are going to enlarge it and will have to support 30 more children ^ 448 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. It will require practically a year to complete these buildings, and then we will ask for an additional appropriation to provide for the additional expenses incurred as a result of those new buildings. Senator Fall. Now, what do you think about this appropriation for 30 pupils — and, of course, I suppose, from the additional use of the other $100,000 you do not know what that sanitarium has cost? What do the buildings cost — do you know anything about that ? Mr. Meritt. Those buildings have been erected for a great num- ber of years, and the plant has heretofore been run as a school. Senator Fall. But it is now run as a sanatorium ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; as a sanatorium. We will be satisfied, Mr. - Chairman. We want to be just as economical as we can, and we will be satisfied to cut this appropriation to $40,000. Senator Lane. Why do you do that if $55,000 is necessary? Mr. Meritt. I think we can, with economy, and eliminating cer- tain of these expenses that we have requested, cut the appropriation to $40,000. Senator Lane. Did you not know that before ? Why do you cut it now ? Why did you not cut before you came in here ? Mr. Meritt. Because there is a belief, as stated here, that the buildings are too expensive for the number of pupils that will be provided for. Senator Robinson. I think we might pass that item over. Senator Townsend. If you had known when you made this esti- mate that you were going to get $310,000 for that previous item, would you have asked for anything on this subject ? Mr. Meritt. We would have asked for part of this appropriation.- We might not have asked for all of it. Senator Lane. I want to ask the doctor a question. You are taking care of children in cases of incipient tuberculosis. How old are they ? Dr. Murphy. They are of school age — pupils of school age. They come from other schools. Senator Lane. And they go right back into the infected quarters for reinfection ? Dr. Murphy. We have had very good results there during the past two or three years, and about 70 per cent of the cases have been either arrested or cured or there has been visible improvement. Senator Lane. Then they go home, where they are subjected to the same infection they had before, and are more liable to infection than they were in the first place. Dr. Murphy. But we consider their residence in the sanatorium has been educative. Senator Lane. They will educate their parents. Dr. Murphy. They will educate themselves not only in the man- agement of disease, but in the prevention of the spread of the disease. vSenator Lane. That is the most useful part. You take them in and cure them and they leave there and go out and get another dose of it Senator Fall. I think that the Senator Lane. One moment, pleaje; I am not through. Senator Clapp. The reporter can not take more than one man at one time. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 449 Senator Lane. I want to say that if they go out and educate other people, their parents and their neighbors, that is useful and that is the principal benefit of it. Now, Senator Fall, you can have the floor. Senator Fall. Thank you; I am through. The Chairman. The question is upon agreeing to the item of $40,000. Senator Townsend. I did not vote for that item or the other because I did not understand it. I am in thorough sympathy with the idea of appropriating any money that is needed, but I do not think we have a sufficient record here so that in a year from now we can tell how that money was used ; whether it was spent in this way or not. But I do not want to do anything to hamper it in this par- ticular case because I think it is a worthy one. Senator Fall. I agree with Senator Robinson's suggestion that we pass this item over, and these gentlemen can then get it into shape so that we can understand it. Mr. Meritt. I may say that we have a justification of this item on pages 385 to 386 of the House hearings, and if you wish me to take up the time of the committee I wih be glad to read the justifica- tion, which is rather extended. We also have Dr. Murphy here, who assisted in getting up this justification, and he can answer any detail questions that you may desire to ask him. Senator Fall. One of the things I wanted to know — that is the reason I coincided with Senator Robinson— is how much of the original investment is in the buildings to which you want $55,000 added for 30 pupils ? Dr. Murphy. I could not say how much the original boarding school at Fort Lapwai cost. It is quite an extensive plant. It was turned over, as I understand, by the War Department. It was an old fort. There are a large number of buildings there. It was used as an Indian boarding school for the Nez Perce Indians. Senator Fall. How many children boarded there ? Dr. Murphy. It had a capacity of about 100. There was such a large percentage of tuberculosis among children on that reservation attending that school that it was found desirable to segregate the tubercular from the healthy children, and we found we had such a large, segregated class that we gradually turned the healthy ones over to the public schools and retained the sick ones to give them proper treatment. Now, aU we have done at Fort Lapwai School in the way of buildings has been largely the improvement and repair of those already there for the proper care of the children. What we are asking now is simply to give us certain additional buildings needed so that we can take care of the tuberculous pupils who are clamoring for admittance to this school. Senator Robinson. You said awhile ago that there were a large number of buildings there that the War Department had turned over to the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Why do you need other buildmgs ' there? ^ , Dr. Murphy. They are all used. There were quite a number ot buildings there. They are aU occupied. Senator Robinson. And how many are there ? Dr. Murphy. They have quarters for the agency employees and for the school employees and for the children, and they are all lull. 450 INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. Senator Robinson. What buildings are you constructing with the appropriation as made ? Dr. MuBPHT. We are proposing to purchase for them a building separate from what were the original dormitories and school, to be use as a dining room and kitchen building so that a proper diet can be given the children. We have not a large enough kitchen a^^d dining room now, and that is part of one of the dormitories, so we intend to increase the capacity by putting up a dining room and kitchen. There is not an adequate superintendent's residence there, and we want to have a laundry. It is also proposed to purchase the land which belongs at the present time to school district 57. Senator Robinson. Where is the superintendent Uving now ? Dr. Murphy. He is living in half of a small building which is occu- pied by other employees of the sanitarium and agency. There is no adequate accommodation for the superintendent. Senator Lane. How much are those building to cost ? Dr. Murphy. We expect to expend about $3,000 on the residence. Senator Lane. In all of these appropriations for health are you going to compel the children to be removed from home to some hos- pital where climatic conditions are different, despite the protests of the parents ? Dr. Murphy. That has not been our intention. Senator Lane. That is bad, and I would object to it. I think the hospitals ought to be smaller, more of them, and close to home, near the parents. The taking children away off in another State is bad. I would not want mine to be taken away from me. The Indians are very particular about that and it is bad for the health; you know that as well as I do. Dr. Murphy. The majority of those children are coming from other schools. They are broken down in health and it is a problem of either sending them back to their homes or else letting them continue their education and giving them proper treatment. Senator Lane. You are taking them from school principally? Dr. Murphy. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. That is it. I mean in all these hospitals — these eight that you are going to build; you are not going to follow out that plan of bringing them from long distances ? Dr. Murphy. No, sir. Senator Townsend. This is the thing that has disturbed me. If we are going into this business and it is possible to build a central hospital or sanatorium then I would say let us put up a building on a scale sufficient to take care of the people who can come there. We did not think that was feasible; we did not believe that could be worked, and therefore we suggested the other plan. Now here it appears is a school that disputes our theory. Senator Robinson. No indeed Senator Townsend. Here is an institution where they are clamor- ing to get in.. Senator Robinson. But they come from near-by reservations. Senator Townsend. He says they come from all over the North- west, and that there is a waiting list — they are waiting to get into school. Senator Robinson. I do not doubt, Mr. Chairman, that there would be many of the class ot those patients who would be glad to avail INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 451 themselves of treatment anyway. You take the child that has been I? ^^ ^} ^^^ ^ considerable length ol time, been to boarding school, and he has had the experience oi being away to school, and his parents have, too. So this class of people who would be affected at Fort Lapwai School are not the class oi patients who would be reached by the camp and pavihon hospitals. The theory is correct. The Indians as a mass and as a rule will not consent to their children being transported half way across the continent to the strange environment away from their care and protection, and where they can not have the opportunity of visiting them and helping them in order that they may be treated in the hospital for tuberculosis, and if you do transport them, many of them would die of homesiclmess, and mstead ol curing them you would be hastening the end with them, and it by no means follows that a child who has aheady broken the home environment and been accustomed to going to school away from the reservation, attending boarding school, would just as hef go to boarding school where he could have the benefit of treatment lor tuberculosis. I do not think that the mere adoption or entering upon a plan to estabUsh these camp hospitals warrants us in abandon- ing at once these hospitals or sanatoria which are already someSvtiat ol a permanent nature and attach to these schools Senator Townsend. No; I do not want to do that, but I say we ought not to enlarge it until we know how the other plan is going to work. If we take them from schools where we are going to establish temporary hospitals — take them from all over the West; that is another proposition. Senator Kobinson. You must remember that as a result of this appropriation of $100,000 from 8 to 15, at most, temporary hospitals can be absorbed, and that will not begin to reach tne communities and reservations that in the end will require some extra improvement. Senator Lane. I think if you would take this $50,000 and put in four more of camp or similar hospitals, scattered through the country, one at Spokane and one in eastern Oregon, up in there near the Warm Spring Indians, where there are better cUmatic conditions than at Lapwai, you will do more good with that money than spending it in the other way. Senator Townsend. What I would like to have the commissioner do is to take this matter home with him — the proposition to increase this other to $310,000— and then come back here to-morrow and justify that proposition after he has carefully gone over it and the relations of all parts of it, and then tell us what he actually needs and why he needs it. If the department needs it, I am satisfied with it. Senator Fall. It will be judged from this general discussion that has gone on here that none of these hospitals provided for in this bill would be used for school children. It is just for sanatorium purposes, only on different reservations. This is for school children ? Senator Townsend. That is my understanding of it. Senator Fall. Are there any adults treated in this school ? Dr. Murphy. No; it is an educational institution. We have four sanatorium schools. Senator Fall. That is what I understood. It is under the system of sanatorium schools, and therefore this other one that you are estab- 3974e— PT 2—14 3 • S '^ 452 INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. lishing would not be in connection with the system of sanatorium schools, but would be a system of hospitals for the treatm-ent of tubercular adults. Dr. Murphy. Yes, sir. We only have four of them. They are sanatoriums for incipient cases only. There are four educational institutions, and Fort liapwai is the largest of them, and we have tried to locate them, as I have said, in such sections of the country — northwest and southwest — so that they can take pupils from near-by schools who would otherwise be a menace to their companions and would have to be sent home. Senator Townsend. I am in sympathy with that, but I think you are spending too much money for the particular benefit you get there when they have been scattered out and do not do some good. But you have this school; I recognize that, and I want to keep it up. But if you want to spend $55,000 more in the business, when we are making this other appropriation, instead of spending it near the schools, whence you take these tubercular children to help them in cases of trachoma and tuberculosis, that is a question that I am not prepared to settle, speaking for myself. The Chairman. In the absence of objection, the item will be passed until to-morrow. CHIPPEWA INDIANS, MINNESOTA. The Chairman. The next item is No. 67, page 27 of the bill, page 423 of the hearings, as follows: The Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to withdraw from the Treasury of the United States, at his discretion, the sum of $50,000, or so much thereof as may l^e necessary, of the principal sum on deposit to the credit of the Chippewa Indians in the State of Minnesota, arising under section seven of the act of January fourteenth, eighteen hundred and eighty-nine, entitled "An act for the relief and civilization of the Chippewa Indians in the State of Minnesota," and to use the same for the purpose of constructing, equipping, and maintaining two hospitals, one to be located either on the Red Lake or Leech Lake Reservation, and one to be located on the Fond du Lac Reservation, the sites to be selected by the Secretary of the Interior, for the use and benefit of the Chippewa Indians in Minnesota. Senator Clapp. Now, Mr. Chairman, on page 8 of the House bill as it passed the House, after the amendment we have provided in reference to high school, I suggest inserting the following : Por the erection^ equipment, and maintenance of three hospitals at sites to be selected by the Secretary of the Interior for the use and benefit of the Chippewa Indians in the State of Minnesota, $75,000. The Chairman. And you desire to insert that after the high-school amendment ? Senator Clapp. Yes. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, we have in the bill as it was passed by the House an item found on page 27, beginning with line 13, read- ing as follows : The Secretary of the Interior is herby authorized to withdraw from the Treasury of the United States at his discretion the sum of |50,000, or so much as may be necessary, or the principal sum on deposit to the credit of the Chippewa Indians in the State of Minnesota arising under section seven of the act of January fourteenth, one thousand ^ight hundred and eighty-nine, entitled "An act for the release and civilization of the ■Chippewa Indians in the State of Minnesota," and to use the same for the purpose of construction, equipping, and maintaining two hospitals, one to be located^either on the Red Lake or Leech Lake Reservation and one to be located on the Fond du Lac INDIAJS^ APPROPRIATION BILL. 453 Heservation, the site to be selected by the Secretary of the Interior, for the use and benefit of the Chippewa Indians in the State of Minnesota. We would like to have that item amended. We have here a nota- tion of an amendment to this item, reading as follows : Strike out the figures '^ $50,000/' on line 15 of page 27, and insert '^$75,000,'' and strike out the word ''two," in line 22, and change the next two lines to read as follows : And maintaining hospitals to be located on the Chippewa Reservation in Minnesota, the sites to be selected oy the Secretary of the Interior for the use and benefit of the Chippewa Indians in Minnesota. The difference between this amendment and the amendment offered by Senator Clapp is that this appropriation would come out of the tribal funds of the Indians and Senator Clapp's amendment, I believe, would be a gratuity appropriation. Senator Clapp. Yes; mine would appropriate $75,000, and then I would strike out aU on line 13 to the end of page 27 and the two lines, 1 and 2 on page 28. Those buildings, of course, eventually will inure to the benefit of the white people up there, and I doubt the fairness of taking the money of these Indians for permanent improve- ments of this kind. Senator Townsend. Are the buildings to be erected on the Indian reservations ? Senator Clapp. Oh, yes ; but this Indian reservation will cease to be an Indian reservation, of course. Senator Robinson. What is the necessity for three hospitals on one reservation ? Senator Clapp. Well, these reservations are so situated that I rather think the commissioner is right in asking for three instead of two. Red Lake is off by itseK in the northern part of the State. Leech Lake, or what we call the Mississippi Reservation, is down near the center, and Fond du Lac is over m the western part of the State, and the present provision makes a provision for that, and I rather think the commissioner is right — at least I would be in favor of making it three, subject to Senator Robinson. The commissioner estimated for only one. Senator Fall. Might not this appropriation that has been made under that theory — might not the three hospitals that are already provided for here to cost more than $12,500 each — be located there? Where are you going to locate them ? Mr. Meritt. We feel that on account of climatic conditions that the hospitals that will be constructed out of this $100,000 will not be suitable for that country. Chippewa country is divided up into Fond du Lac, Red Lake, Grand Portage, Leech Lake, Net Lake, and White Earth Reservations. Senator Fall. Last year there was an estimate for hospitals to be established somewhere in the southwest and I advocated the appropriation to the best of my abihty, and it was in the riature of a compromise very largely on that one item that the legislative com- mittee was appointed to investigate conditions generally, and they did take into consideration, I know, the location of a hospital such as was estimated for and recommended by the department, in New Mexico, on the Mescalero Reservation, and they decided to announce in their report that they would not ask the erection of any general 454 INDIAN APPEOPBIATION BILL. hospital, but simply provide for taking care of the Indians on their respective reservations, and I understood that they could get cheap assistance in the hospital. Now it strikes me that if the Indians themselves on other reserva- tions have funds with which to erect buildings for themselves they ought to be erected on the reservations. There is no reason for per- mitting this appropriation to be made out of public funds. The proposition that it may become at some time public property is sim- ply to look into the future when the Indians might ail die off, when as a matter of fact they are not dying, but increasing in a great many of the reservations (and I certamly hope they will continue to in- crease), and I am willing to devote all the money necessary out of the public appropriation or th':-ir tribal funds, or anywhere else that is necessary to provide for their health and taking care of them. But I can not understand why you should appropriate from the public moneys to establish three $25,000 hospitals on the Chippewa reser- vation if they are likely at any time not to need this reservation. Senator Clapp. Well it is just as fair to take the money of one family because they have a fund here and use that money to provide for a hospital service for the children of another famdy in no wise related to them. The theory of this fund is that it is a fund that is event- ually be divided per capita among the Indians. In some minor matters we take, for instance, S 1,000 for an annual celebration. They do not all participate and yet it is open to everyone, but when it comes to taking a large amount of that money I doubt the good faith of it very much. Those Indians are there. The diseases of the Indian is a menace to the whites, of course, the same as the disease of the whites is a menace to the Indians. Senator Fall. The estimate, I notice, is $25,000 for each of those hospitals. Senator Clapp. That is a matter I will deal with later. I am dealing now with the question of good faith of taking one Indian's money to approf)riate a hospital for another Indian. It does not strike me that it is a just or lair proposition. Senator Townsend. That is, you are taking the money of the tribe for the benefit of the Indians of that tribe ? Senator Clapp. No; not of that tribe. Taking the money that if it was divided would belong to one Indian and taking some of that to build a hospital to take care of the children of another Indian. They are all in one tribe, of course. Now, as far as the estimate goes, that is a matter that does not concern me very much. I have mcreased this from $50,000 to $75,000, on the suggestion of the Indian Office, subject, as I explained to the office representative, to conference with my colleagues in the House, those reservations extending into three congressional districts, I think. I do not know why it was increased $50,000 in the House, except, I suppose, it was a suggestion of the Indian Office. Those Indians are so situ- ated that the suggestion of three hospitals appeals to me instead of two. It is a long way from Red Lake over to the western Indians. There is one natural center at Leech Lake and another natural cen- ter up at Red Lake, then there is a sort of natural center over on Lake Superior. When Mr. Meritt made the suggestion of three I said if it was agreeable to my colleagues it would be very agreeable to me. INDIAN APPEOPKIATION BILL. 455 Senator Fall. He also makes the suggestion that it be paid out of the tribal funds. Senator Clapp. Yes. Senator Townsend. Mr. Meritt, is there much sickness up there ? Mr. Meritt. A great deal of sickness. Senator Townsend. What do you do with the Indians now who are sick ? Mr, Meritt. We have not sufficient facilities to provide for them now. We feel that the Chippewa Indians should be better provided for. They have in the Treasury of the United States about $5,000,000. There are over 11,000 of those Chippewa Indians. The Graham committee — the House congressional committee — which investigated conditions there two years ago found the health conditions and the industrial conditions among those Indians to be "tio thing less than deplorable, as shown by that report. We feel that those Indians can well afford to use $75,000 of their funds in the erec- tion of three hospitals. We have already provided for one hospital on the White Earth Reservation for those Indians, and if we can get $75,000 we will erect a hospital on the Red Lake, which has a popu- lation of 1,456; a hospital on Leech Reservation, which has a popu- lation of 1,735; and a nospital on Fond du Lac Reservation, which has a population of 978. That will leave two small reservations unpro- vided for — Net Lake, with a population of 607, and Grand Portage, with a population of 309. Senator Lane. Will you build the same type hospital in each instance, the same design and at the same cost ? Mr. Meritt. It is expected that about the same type hospital will be built on the several reservations. Senator Lane. And the same expenditure in each case? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. One that has 1,400 inhabitants and another that has 900 ? Senator Clapp. The 900 would also naturally be, Senator, for the Net Lake, and would bring them pretty nearly equal the three of them. The Chairman. Senators, what disposition shall be made of the item? Senator Lane. The item is to be appropriated out of public funds? The Chairman. Yes. The question is on the amendment proposed by the Senator from Minnesota. Senator Lane. And he said he knew they had money of their own. Mr. Meritt. Our estimate was that these hospitals should be con- structed out of the tribal funds. I offer no objection to the amend- ment suggested by Senator Clapp. Senator Clapp. But how do you justify takmg one Indian's money, who may have no children, and if they have them they are not infected, and using his money to build a hospital for another family ? Now I would have no objection to this if it can be done— I would have no objection to the appropriation being made direct, and then m the management of these hospitals an accounting with each Indian, and when Ms per capita settlement is made, make an accounting of what has been advanced for his benefit. That would be eminently fair. But to take one Indian's money just because he happens to have some money on deposit with the Government, and use it to build a hospital for another Lidian, does not strike me as being fair. 456 INDIAN" APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Fall. Well, has he any money ? Senator Clapp. Why, each one of these theoretically. The tribe has about $5,000,000. Senator Fall. I understand that the tribe has, but has any indi- vidual in it any money on deposit with the Government ? Senator Clapp. No; but if we should take that money and give $5,000 to one Indian and $500 to another, if the courts could not remedy it, jpubhc sentiment would. Senator Fall. Is not the Indian who has the $500 just as likely to have tuberculosis or trachoma as the one who has $5,000 ? Senator Clapp. But the theory of this fund is that these Indians wiU receive whatever is left per capita. Senator Fall. I understand; but if one has $5,000 and one has $500 out of a total of $25,000 that was taken from the tribal funds the man who has the $500 coming to him would pay 10 times as much for the hospital as the other. Senator Clapp. But it would not be $500 to one and $5,000 to the other. If we act fairly with these people, as we ought to do, each Indian would receive precisely the same amount of money. Senator Lane. This expense would be equally distributed. Senator Clapp. But you are distributing an expense against one man who has not incurred any expense. Senator Townsend. We do that in every case; take, for instance, a city hospital. You propose to transfer it from the tribes to the Government, which has no part in it. Everybod}^ else is to pay for that, according to that — contribute a portion toward the expense of this hospital. Senator Clapp. If it were not a fact that this matter has been so managed that these Indians have a fund which stands to their credit you would not think- of appropriating the money for a hospital from the tribal funds. Now, because they have this fund, which is a tribal fund, which ultimately will be divided among them, why should the money be taken from one Indian for another ? Senator Lane. They do not establish soup kitchens for the benefit of the rich, who are mostly overfed. Senator Clapp. It is not a case of being overfed. I am perfectly wiUing, if a system can be devised, to make each one of these Indians who receives the benefit of the hospital pay for it out of his share. Senator Fall. Then he would pav for his misfortune. Senator Clapp. Yes. Why should another pay for it ? Senator Fall. It would be pretty hard on the white people if they all had to pay for their own treatment. Senator Clapp. But that proposes to make those who do not have any treatment pay for it. Senator Fall. Is that not the case everywhere ? Senator Clapp. No, sir. Senator Fall. In society do oiily the sick provide for themselves ? Senator Clapp. I suggested that the sick pay for it out of their pro rata share, and you objected to that. Senator Fall. And I am objecting to it now. Senator Robinson. I believe it is about as fair a disposition as can be made of a charge of this sort that it shall be charged against the tribal funds. We have been in the habit of charging against tribal funds items which can not be justified in that way; for instance in INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 457 the construction of a large number of irrigation systems we have been compelling the tribal funds to pay for the construction and mainte- nance of those systems when a large number of the tribe do not receive any benefit from it, and when the greater part of the benefit goes to the white men. Senator Clapp. But have you not in every case provided that ultunately they should pay for that— that that should be reimbiusable ? Senator Robinson. No, sir; absolutely not. We arc trying to do it now by an amendment that some of us have been providing, but the Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs have found that on the Crow Reservation enormous sums of tribal money have been expended by the Government to construct and to maintain irrigation systems paid for and maintained out of the tribal fund,, when practically every dollar of benefit from it goes to the white man. Now, here is a case which, according to Senator Clapp. Is it not provided in each case that it should be reimbursable ? Senator Robinson. No. That is what I am telling you. I am trying to make it plain to you. It is not only true of that reserva- tion — it is being reformed now; it is being stopped — but it has been going on for a long time, and it has been going on in every other reservation, as strange as it may seem to you. But here is a case where w^e say there is not one Indian in a thousancl in the United States w^ho belongs to any tribe, whether he is Chippewa or Apache, who w^ould not give a small amount of his tribal fund for the use and benefit of the unfortunates of his race, and I think the Indians throughout the United States of any tribe — and I have had occasion to visit them — would be glad to see the tribal funda used for this wholesome and beneficial purpose, for the protection and benefit of his race from the scourge which absolutely threatens to destroy it, and this is certainly one instance when it is justified where the misfortunes of the tribe should be charged against the tribe, and, as Senator Lane has suggested, those who were fortunate enough to be free from the plague will be glad to contribute their share of what may be necessary to establish these hospitals. Senator Clapp. Then put a provision in this that before it goes into effect it shall be submitted to a council of these Indians. I have no objection to that. Senator Lane. There is another thing about it that I think is in its favor. It will be something which they A\all have left, when we get through with them anyway; we will get away with aU the rest of the money. Senator Townsend. I think, as Senator Robinson does, about this proposition. The question of sentiment in this committee and the trend of the time is that we give more responsibility to the Indians. We propose that he shall have something to say and we propose to create within him a desire to have something to say in his own affairs. One of the things he must be taught to do is to take care of himself. He has the money, and if he has the money it should be used by him, and he should understand that it is his proposition ; he is supporting it; it belongs to him; and therefore he has an interest and an added interest in seeing that his friends go there and everything is cared for properly. So, with this in view, beheving as I do that we are on that 458 INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. track, that we propose to place more responsibility on the Indian, this is one of the things that should be done and we want to do wher- ever we can. I want to vote that the money of the Indian, if he has it, shall be used for his beneficial use. Senator Clapp. I quite agree with you, and I have thought for a long time that these funds should be so credited on the books that, wherever an Indian has money to his credit — not somebody's else, but to his credit — he should pay for his schooling out of that money. I do not beUeve he could put his money to any Jbetter use than that. Senator Robinson. But to make is a prerequisite that before any part of the fund shall be expended he shall be consulted as to whether he wants to go to school. , Senator Clapp. No, not in all cases. Not in the case of the indi- vidual, but before you take one man's money to furnish a hospital for another I believe the tribe should be consulted. I have no objection at all to adding the original $50,000 or increasing the original $50,000 to $75,000 and increasing the establishment from two to three, agreeably to Mr. Meritt's suggestion, with the proviso that before this appropriation becomes operative it shall be submitted to a general council of the Chippewa Indians in Minnesota. Senator Fall. Would that apply to the expenditure of every dollar of that fund ? Would you have a referendum to them ? Senator Clapp. I think in all cases where the amount is over three lor four or. five thousand dollars, the time has come when it should be referred to the Indians. Senator Robinson. I am heartily in sympathy with that principle, but I want to say to you that I would be totally unwdlling to attach it to this item alone, or any item, I think, where the appropriation ought to be made whether the Indians want it or not; that is to say, it is so necessary and justifiable, but I think it would be foolish to attach the referendum to an item like this and then leave hundreds 'of thousands of dollars to be affected. Senator Townsend. I have an amendment covering the whole field that I am going to offer. I agree with you that I do not want to attach it to some tribal matter, but I am inclined to believe that possibly if we were to submit it to a referendum there probably would not be built over two of these hospitals, and I think probably two would be quite sufficient under the circumstances. We have been getting along without any all this time, and I think two would be sufficient. But, as I said before, with reference to the health con- ditions, if the department or the Senators and others from that State who are conversant with the situation say we need it I am for it, but I think it is a rather remarkable plunge to jump in with three of these $25,000 hospitals all in one year. Senator Clapp. Of course, as I have said, my consent to the three is tentative, after consulting with my House colleagues. Personally I can see how; geographically and with reference to the tribes, the three hospitals would meet the condition up there. Two, perhaps, \^ould not so well meet the situation. I have no objection to three, provided we can have a provision that it would not be extended to others. I quite agree to that. I think that we should extend all appropriations; but before they become operative they should be submitted to the general council of the Indians. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 459 The Chairman. What is our situation at this time? The fu^st is, I presume, perfecting the amendment in accordance with the way the honorable commissioners suggest. Is there any objection to that motion ? Senator Clapp. I have none — in a tentative manner. The Chairman, The suggestion is that on page 27, hne 15, the words '^filty thousand dollars" be stricken out and the words '^sev- enty-five thousand dollars" be inserted; on line 22 the word ''two" is stricken out and the word ''three" inserted. That is in accordance with your suggestion, Mr. Commissioner ? ^Ir. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. There is a certain other change in the language there that will be necessary owing to an increase in the number. The Chairman. Yes; that mil be perlected. Now, Senator Clapp desires to introduce an amendment. Senator Clapp. My amendment is to provide that the provisions of this paragraph shall not become operative until submitted to a council and approved by a majority of the Indians. Senator Robinson. I ask unanimous consent that that amend- ment may be pending, and that the whole subject be passed for the present, with this understanding that if we adopt a general amend- ment attaching that to other items in the bill, it wiU not be necessary to further consider it in connection with this particular item. Senator Clapp. And more than that, I am heartily in sympathy with the purpose to make it general. Senator Robinson. I am inclined to think that will be done. Senator Clapp. I wish when you get time, Senator Robinson, you will give me a hst of appropriations where the word "reimbursable" does not appear. Of coui-se you can not do it at this time. I mean with respect to the appropriation of Indian money for the purpose of irrigation, and other purposes. Senator Robinson. I have given you one case — the Crow Reserva- tion. Senator Clapp. What year ? Senator -Robinson. For every year. All of the works that are constructed there and maintained there are maintained at the ex- pense of the tribal funds and the tribes are getting practically no benefit from it. Senator Clapp. I am not speaking of the ultimate benefit, but you say the word "reimbursable" does not appear. Seiiator Robinson. No; I did not say anything about "reim- bursable" at all. The Chairman. This item goes over until to-morrow, at which time the committee will determine whether they wish to act favora- bly upon Senator Clapp's amendment. In the meanwhile it is under- stood that the top item, as suggested by the Commissioner and Senator Clapp's amendment will be voted on to-morrow or the next day. Senator Robinson. Voted on when we get ready. Senator Townsend. I want to speak about this once more. As I have said, I do not want to appear as trying to restrict anything; but here is a case where the commissioner asks for one hospital, the House puts in two, we propose three. Now, if you want to load up appro- priation bills in this way, putting in items that the department itself 460 INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. did not originally ask for and where the House has been content, or its Representatives there, with one more — if you want to add another $25,000 building, and they ask all through the reservations of the United States for the additional construction of buildings and tem- porary hospitals — if you want to load all that into this year's appro- priation, so be it. It is up to you. Senator Lane. With respect to that, I am perfectly willing to take all the funds we have appropriated and cut them in two and use half of them for hospitals. That is the greatest crying need of the Indians at this time. HOSPITAL FOR THE CHOCTAW NATION. The Chairman. The next item, is No. 126, page 47 of the compari- son, page 602 of the hearings, as follows: For constructing, equipping, and maintaining a hospital on lands authorized to be set apart within' the Choctaw Nation for the use and benefit of the enrolled Indians of the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations, $50,000, or so much thereof as may be neces- sary, $37,500 to be payable out of Choctaw tribal funds and $12,500 to be payable out of Chickasaw tribal funds, said hospital to be conducted under such rules, regulations, and conditions as the Secretary of the Interior may prescribe. Mr. Meritt. We are satisfied with the language found in the House biU and the amount appropriated. The Chairman. How much is that ? Mr. Meritt. $50,000. Senator Lane. How much did you ask for ? Mr. Meritt. We asked for $50,000, and the House allowed us $50,000. I might say, Mr. Chairman, that the tribal council has requested that certain land be set aside for hospital purposes. That has been done. There is a provision in the Indian appropriation act which prevents us from using any tribal funds of the Five Civilized Tribes without specific authorization by Congress. The Indians want this appropriation, but we are required to ask for special legislation in view of the existing law. Senator Lane. This provides for 50 patients, does it ? Mr. Meritt. There is no specific number. Senator Lane. I thought it said something somewhere in here about 50 patients. This is for tuberculosis^ is it ? Mr. Meritt. It is for tuberculosis and trachoma. Senator Lane. This is going to be a $50,000 structure, is it ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sh ; it is not going to be a brick building. It is going to be in the nature of camp hospitals to provide for the Indians of the Choctaw and Chickasaw tribes. Senator Lane. I see a statement made by Mr. Burke that this will cost about $1,000 a bed for these tubercular hospitals. Is that true, Dr. Murphy ? Dr. Murphy. No, sir; it is not. I will say, also, Senator Lane, that this appropriation of $50,000 was made by the Choctaw Council itself — the appropriation of so much of their own tribal funds. Senator Lane. Even if it was, you want to get the most benefit out of it and treat as many patients as possible. How many do you figure that this provides for — how many Indians — how many patients ? Dr. Murphy. We have not made plans for this particular hospital at this time, but we expect that this will be on a very reasonable scale, and will accommodate the maximum number of pat ents. INDIAN APPEOPBIATXON BILL. 461 « Senator Lane. Mr. Meritt says here, ''This hospital will probably accommodate about 50 patients/' in answer to a question of Mr. Carter in the justification. That is the reason my attention was called to that matter. Dr. Murphy. You will notice that the act says, '^For construction, equipping, and maintaining." I am not positive as to exactly what the capacity will be when finally equipped, but we expect to start as soon as possible and give them at least a start at the hospital there for the care of the patients, because in Oklahoma, where the climate is not severe, we expect to provide more beds than we could possibly provide for the same expenditure in the North. The item was agreed to. ^ ASYLUM FOR INSANE INDIANS, CANTON, S. DAK. The Chairman. The next item is No. 141, page 52 of the com- parison, page 639 of the hearings, as follows: For the equipment and maintenance of the asylum for insane Indians at Canton, South Dakota, for incidental and all other expenses necessary for its proper conduct and management, including pay of employees, repairs, improvements, and for necessary expenses of transporting insane Indians to and from said asylum, $35,000. Senator Robinson. How many are there? Mr. Meritt. Fifty-three, I believe, at this time. Senator Kobinson. Have we any information available as to the total number of Indians who are afflicted with insanity ? Mr. Meritt. We have a good many more insane Indians than we have facilities to provide for them. We are required by this appro- priation to increase the capacity of this institution, and I think we can add, when the buildings that are now imder construction are completed, about 30 inore patients. Senator Lane. How many have we now ? Mr. Meritt. We have 53 patients in the institution now, and we think that with the new hospital building we can add 27 more to that institution, giving a total oi 80 patients. Senator Page. Let me ask the doctor a question: Is insanity com- mon among the Indians ? Is it frequent 1 Dr. Murphy. I do not believe insanity is as frequent among the Indians as it is among the corresponding class of whites, but we have a larger number of insane Indians than we can possibly take care of in the Canton Asylum. We turn down a large number of patients every month who are applying for admission to Canton. Senator Lane. What is your per capita cost — what is the annual cost for the care of patients there; do you know, Doctor? Dr. Murphy. Yes; it costs about $400 a patient, but that per capita is larger than it should be. One reason for that is the insti- tution is a small one. The per capita will be reduced in proportion to the increase in the number of patients; it is difficult to maintain a hospital for insane Indians with so small a capacity and keep the per capita cost down, but with the increase in the number of patients we expect to be able to reduce that very materially. Mr. Meritt. We would Hke to have our estimates $40,000 for this item. The House allowed us $35,000. The Chairman. It will be agreed to in the absence of objection, (The item was agreed to.) 462 II^DIAN APPKOPIUATIOK BILL. PINE RIDGE RESERVATION. The Chairman. The next item, No. 42, not found in the compar- ison or the printed bill — hospital for Pine Ridge Indians, South Dakota, $5,000. Mr. Meritt. We will be glad to have that item omitted from the bill in view of the general appropriation. \ The Chairman. It will be omitted. pay of physician^ SHIVWITZ school, UTAH. The Chairman. The next item is No. 146, not in the printed bill, page 650 of the hearings — pay of physician, Shivwitz School, Utah, $500. Senator Clapp. I want to ask you a question. Those Pine Ridge Indians are Sioux, are they not? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Clapp. These particular ones, are they outside of the pale of the benefits that are coming to the Sioux from treaties ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; the Pine Ridge Indians receive certain bene- fits from the Sioux treaties. Senator Clapp. Then why is it you eliminate that item and put it under your general hospital item ? Mr. Meritt. Because the Pine Ridge Indians have inadequate funds with which to provide hospital facilities out of their tribal funds. Senator Clapp. Is there a distinct Pine Ridge Tribe of Sioux Indians ? Mr. Meritt. That is a reservation among the Sioux Indians. Senator Clapp. The Sioux as a whole have abundant means, have they not, for providing hospitals ? Mr. Meritt. We are now building two hospitals for the Sioux Indians because those particular tribes have funds of their own. For example, the Rosebud and Standing Rock Indians are now having hospitals constructed for them out of their funds. Senator Clapp. But the Indians at Pine Ridge are a part of the general Sioux Tribe, are they not? Are they a separate tribe? Mr. Meritt. They are a separate reservation. Senator Clapp. I know they are a separate reservation, the same as the White Earth is a separate reservation, but there is no White Earth Tribe of Indians. I do not understand there is a Pine Ridge Tribe. Mr. Meritt. No, sir; they are all known as the Sioux Tribe of Indians. Senator Clapp. Exactly; and participate in the general property of the tribe. Senator Townsend. Is that correct; that all participate in the general property of the Sioux? Mr. Meritt. The Sioux reservations have all had their tribal funds placed to the credit of the various reservations except treaty funds appropriated annually by Congress. The Rosebud^ Indians have almost a million dollars to their credit, the Standing Rock Indians have quite a lot of money to their credit, but the Pine Ridge Indians do not share in the funds of the Rosebuds or the Standing INDIAN APPBOPBIATION BILL. 463 feocks, and there are not sufficient funds belonging to the Pine Ridge Indians to enable the construction of a hospital. Senator Clapp. Were they not originally a part of the same tribe ? How did they come to be put in that condition ? Mr. Mebitt. Because the various reservations were created for those Indians on that reservation by acts of Congress. The reserva- tions have been allotted and the surplus lands have in some cases been thrown open. There were so many Indians on the Pine Ridge Reservation that it took practically all their land to allot to the Indians of that reservation, therefore they did not receive any great amount of money for the sale of their surplus lands. The lands which remained imallotted were practically valueless and brought no income, whereas on the Rosebud Reservation thay had a large amount of land which was thrown open, and that land was valuable; and they got a large amount of money from the sale of that land which was deposited to the credit of the Rosebud Indians, and not to the credit of the Sioux tribe at large. The Chairman. The question is on the adoption of the item for the pay of physician for the Shivwitz Indians, $500. It is agreed to, m the absence of objection. (The item was agreed to.) IMPROVEMENT OF SANITARY CONDITIONS AMONG THE CHIPPEWAS. The Chairman. The next item is No. 162, page 59 of the compari- son, page 687 of the hearings : For improving sanitary conditions among the Chippewa Indians of the Bad River Reservation and for diking the Bad River to prevent the overflow of said river and damage to Indian homes on tribal lands, $8,000, said sum to be reimbursed to the United States from any moneys which are now or which may hereafter be placed to the credit of the Bad River Band of Wisconsin Chippewa Indians. That is reimbursable, and on page 687 of the hearings wiU be foiind a justification of the same. Mr. Meritt. This is a smaU appropriation we are asking so as to improve the sanitary conditions on the Bad River Reservation. The nver overflows and, as a result, there has been a great deal of sickness among those Indians. We would like to have this appro- priation in order to improve the sanitary conditions of the town in which they live. The Chairman. Did the House approve of that sum ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Is there any discussion of this item or any objec- tion. There being none it is agreed to at the sum of S8,000. (The item was agreed to.) allotment of lands in severalty to INDIANS. The Chairman. The next is page 2 of the printed bill, item No. 1, justification, page 11 of the hearings: For the survey, resurvey, classification, appraisement, and allotment of lands in severalty under the provisions of the act of February eighth, eighteen hundred and eighty-seven, entitled *'An act to provide for the allotment of lands in severalty to Indians," and under any other act or acts providing for the survey and allotment of lands in severalty to Indians; and for the survey and subdivision of Indian reserva-. 464 INDIAN" APPROPRIATION BILL. tions and lands to be allotted to Indians under authority of law, $150,000, to be repaid Proportionately out of any Indian moneys held in trust or otherwise by the United tates and available by law for such reimbursable purpose and to remain available until expended, $225,000. Senator Clapp. I understood the other day that the amendment which the commissioner offered with reference to the accounting was adopted — the House amendment as to the amount — and the question of the removal of the Indians thereon to pubHc lands was left to be the subject of conference between Senator Fall and the assistant commissioner. The record does not show the adoption of that por- tion of the amendment with reference to the accounting, Mr. Meritt. I merely remind you of that so that in your conference with Senator Fall, in what you may agree on, not to lose sight of the other item^f^ Mr. Meritt. ^ir. Chairman, we would like to have adopted as a proviso at the end of this item the following The Chairman. After the word "expended'' ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir: Provided, That hereafter no part of said sum shall be used for the survey, resurvey, classification, appraisement, or allotment of any land in severalty upon the public domain, to any Indian, whether of the Navajo or other tribes, within the State of New Mexico and the State of Arizona, who was not residing on the public domain prior to June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and thirteen. I beheve that amendment is acceptable to Senator Fall. Senator Fall. That will take care of those there before they had notice. The Chairman. Is there any objection to that item? If there is no objection the same will be adopted. Senator Clapp. Jusjt a moment there. In that connection let me remind the commissioner of the other amendment. ^ Mr. Meritt. I was going to ask that that be incorporated in the bill. I should like to have the following proviso adopted: Provided further, That the surveys shall be made in accordance with the provisions for the survey and resurveys of public lands, including traveling expenses and per diem allowances in lieu of subsistence to those employed thereon, and when necessary the Secretary of the Interior may employ in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, such assistants as are required in the preparation of the final returns of the surveys of Indian lands made under the direction of the Commissioner of the General Land Office. The Chairman. Is that in lieu of this on the yellow paper that I find printed in there ? Senator Townsend. That is the last proviso on the yellow paper. Mr. Meritt. The necessity for this is caused by the recent decision of the comptroller wherein he holds that this appropriation will not be available after July 1 of this year for employing persons in the General Land Office to carry on the work they have heretofore been doing under this appropriation. The Chairman. What is this item, $200,000 or $225,000 ? Mr. Meritt. The House allowed us $150,000. We estimated for $225,000. Last year's bill carried $200,000. The office will be satisfied with $200,000. • The Chairman. In the absence of objection these preliminary amendments will be agreed to. Senator Clapp. Let us clean them up, anyway, then take up the amount, if there is any objection. s. INDIAN APPROPEiATION BILL. 465 Senator Lane. I do not understand the application of them entirely, and I was going to enter a general objection against all of them. The Chairman. I would hke to have the whole section read as it will read after it is amended. Senator Lane. These allotments are the beginning and the ending of the evil of the Indians, and something ought to be done. We have got to change the laws in regard to them. The alio ting of them on the lands and then giving them nothing to work with and assessing their lands for maintaining irrigation schemes is eating them up, and it is a thing which brings on misery, distress, and tuberculosis, which is pre- vailing generally, and it lays right in these two items. I am opposed to them. The Chairman. Will you read that as it appears after the amend- ments are adopted, commencing on line 3, page 2? Mr. Meritt. The entire item ? The Chairman. I should like to have it read, so as to get it myself. Mr. Meritt. The entire item will read as follows: For the survey, resurvey, classification, allotment, and disposal under the provi- sions of the act of February eighth, eighteen hundred and eighty-seven (Twenty- fourth Statutes at Large, page three hundred and eighty-eight), entitled "An act to provide for the allotment of lands in severalty to Indians," and under any other act or acts providing for the survey, allotment, or disposal of Indian lands, $200,000, to be repaid proportionately out of any Indian moneys held in trust or otherwise by the United States and available by law for such reimbursable purposes and to remain available until expended : Provided, That hereafter no part oi said sum shall be used for the survey, resurvey, classification, appraisement, or allotment of any land in severalty upon the public domain to any Indian, whether of the Navajo or other tribes, within the State of New Mexico and the State of Arizona, who was not residing on the public domain prior to June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and thirteen: Pro- vided further, That the surveys shall be made in accordance with the provisions for the survey and resurveys of public lands, including traveling expenses and per diem allotments in lieu of subsistence to those employed thereon; and when necessary the Secretary of the Interior may employ in the city of Washington, District of Colum- bia, such assistants as are required in the preparation of the final returns of the sur- veys of Indian lands made under the direction of the Commissioner of the General Land Office. Senator Townsend. Let me ask you right there, are those two States the only places where that condition prevails, where the Indians are locating on the public domain ? Mr. Meritt. There are more Indians in the States of Arizona and New Mexico who are locating on the public domain than in other States. Senator Townsend. If that is an evil, why not make it broad enough to cover the whole field ? Mr. Meritt. We do not consider it an evil, Senator ; we consider it a benefit so far as the law is generally appUed, but we recognize that in the States of Arizona and New Mexico there have been large reservations of lands for Indian, forest, and other purposes, and we feel that the Indians who are entitled to go on the pubHc domain and get allotments have already gone on there and their interests can be protected under this amendment, and hereafter Indians in those States not on the public domain prior to June 30, 1913, can be taken care of on the reservations within those States. Senator Fall. We, of course, feel they could have been taken care of altogether on those reservations, but the practice has been to allow 466 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. them to go oflF, and those on the pubhc lands now we are perfectly willing to let them remain, but we do not want any more. The Chairman. The question is on those amendments. Do you want to vote on them separately? There being no objection, they are agreed to. (The amendments were agreed to .) The Chairman. Now, the question is on the item as amended. Senator Clapp. I move that the amount estimated for be allowed. Mr. Meritt. We estimated for $225,000. Senator Clapp. I mean $200,000. The Chairman. It is moved by the Senator from Minnesota that $200,000 be allowed. Those in favor say ''aye," opposed ''no." (The item was agreed to.) SUPPORT AND education INDIAN SCHOOL, GENOA, NEBR. The Chairman. I will commence at the first part and see if we can not pick up some items that have been passed. Item No. 86, page 31 of the printed bill, page 480 of the hearings: For support and education of three hundred and seventy-five Indian pupils at the Indian school at Genoa, Nebraska, including pay of superintendent, $60,000; for general repairs and improvements, $4,500; for new laundry building and equipment, $4,000; for repairs and addition to hospital, $4,000; dairy barn, $6,000; in all, $78,500. The House approved the item at $78,500. The estimate was $88,300. Do you want your original estimate, Mr. Commissioner? Mr. Meritt. We would like to have our original estimate. The Chairman. Where will the change be, Mr. Commissioner ? Mr. Meritt. The change will be in the support and education of 375 Indians in the Indian school at Genoa, including pav of superin- tendent, $62,300. The Chairman. Instead of $60,000 on hne 12 ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. For general repairs and improvement, $7,500 instead of $4,500. For new laundry building and equipment, $7,500 instead of $4,000. For repairs and addition to hospital, $6,000 instead of $4,000. For dairy barn we estimated for $5,000, and the House allowed us $6,000 on the recommendation of Representative Stephens of that State. He said that $5,000 was not sufticient. Wfe would be glad to have the $6,000 retained in the bill. The Chairman. That would make the total appropriation above your estimate, would it not ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The C^hairman. The question then is on agreeing to that item of $89,300. Senator Townsend. Do you not want an explanation of that to know why they ask for this larger amount than the House allowed ? Senator Lane. Yes; don't rush it through. Mr. Meritt. The House cut our estimates in a large number of places, Senator. We feel that there should really be some additional improvements besides those asked for, but the department was anxious to keep the bill down to the lowest amount possible. Senator Hitchcock, I believe, has asked for a lavatory, $10,000, and an indus- trial building for girls, $5,000. We would like very much to have the lavatory, $10,000, if the committee will grant it, although it was not included in our estimates. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILX.. ' 467 Senator Fall. You are already subject to a point of order on the amendment — ^you have increased it $1,000 — are you not? Senator Townsend. Your rate of support and education is the same generally for these Indian schools, is it ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. Then there should not be any difference in the 375 Indian pupils. Where do you get your $2,000 additional in that first sentence ? You ask for $62,000 instead of $60,000. Now, if you made your regular estimate for cost per pupil it could not be the larger amount you are asking there; it must be larger pay for the superintendent. Mr. Meritt. No, sir. We are asking for the same amount appro- priated in last year's bill. The House cut the appropriation to $62,300. The Chairman. Is that what you are asking this year ? Mr. Meritt. We are asking the same amount for the support of the school this year as was allowed by the House last year. Senator Clapp. What is the nearest school to this, Mr. Meritt ? Mr. Meritt. The nearest is in South Dakota, I think. Senator. Senator Clapp. How far from Genoa ? Mr. Meritt. We have a great many schools in South Dakota — schools on the Rosebud Reservation, on the Pine Ridge Reservation, and also on the Yankton Reservation. Senator Clapp. What I was getting at was this : It has always seemed to me that here and there at intervals, related somewhat to the proximity of Indians, we ought to anticipate the retention for a food while of some of these schools, and at intermediate spaces, per- aps, anticipate the aboHtion of schools before long. That has been my theory m voting appropriations where it seemed that a school would be one of the last to go, to make it about as thorough as we could make it. I have supported a good many appropriations for the Wahpetons upon that tneory. Mr. Meritt. Tnis school is located close to a number of reserva- tions. For example, it is located near the Winnebago, the Omaha, the Yankton, the Rosebud, and the Pine Ridge Reservations. It can always be filled to its capacity without very much trouble. Senator Clapp. Then you think it is one of the schools that we ought to anticipate the continuance of for some time, do you ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Clapp. Then I move the appropriation of the $10,000 for the lavatory. Mr. Meritt. That will materially improve the sanitary conditions of this school, and it is very much needed. The Chairman. The question is on increasing the item to $99,300, $10,000 for the lavatory, $4,500 industrial school for girls ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; we are not asking for the industrial school for girls this year. That is Senator Hitchcock's amendment. We feel that we can get along without that, but we do feel that we would like to have the $10,000 for the lavatory. Senator Fall. We will have to offer some justification, because a point of order is likely to be made on this increase. ' Mr. Meritt. The justification of this is that the girls are required to go to the basement of this building, and the present sanitary 39746— PT 2—14 4 468 INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. conditions in that building are not very good. It would be very desirable for the school to have the proposed lavatory. Senator Clapp. I would suggest, Mr. Commissioner, that after the bill is agreed to, so that they will all be in a ccncise and consecutive form, that the justifications for the increases more than the estimate be prepared, otherwise they will be scattered through the record and difficult to get at. Mr. Meritt. We shall be glad to prepare for the chairman of the committee the justification for each change in the bill over the House bill. The Chairman. That is agreed to in the absence of objection. The amended item was agreed to. » The Chairman. That seems to be as far as we ca?i proceed to-day, because Senator Owen is absent and the Oklahoma matters are not coming up. But I am so constantly besieged by persons who wish to be heard on this and that subject Senator Clapp. Why not go ahead and hear some of them now? The Chairman. We can hear som^ebody this afternoon. I shall be glad to stay. STATEMENT OF MR. S. M. BROSIUS, AGENT INDIANS' RIGHTS ASSOCIATION, WASHINGTON, D. C. Mr. Brosius. Mr. Chairman, I have prepared a statement which it will take only five or six minutes to read. The Chairman. Leave it here and it will be put in the record. (The statement referred to is as follows:) Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I wish to present the need of pro- tecting the homes of the Indians located on the public lands in Arizona and New Mexico. The Hon. Andrieus A. Jones, Assistant Secretary of the Interior, on June 24, 1913, in addressing the chairman of the Indian Committee of the House of Representa- tives, states that the Indian Office informs him that there are approximately 6,000 Indians of the Papago Tribe living on the public domain in Pima and Pinal Counties, Ariz., and that applications have been filed for allotments for about 3,000 of these Papagos under the fourth section of the general allotment act and its amendments. The Assistant Secretary further reports m his communication that it is estimated that 10,000 Navajos are located on the public domain, of whom 9,000 live reasonably adjacent to the Navajo Reservation. These 6,000 applications for allotment to Papago and Navajo Indians, although scheduled, have not been allotted, since the Secretary of the Interior has not approved the selections. Assistant Secretary Jones states further that 291 Papagos have been allotted 41,606 acres on the Papago Reservation, and that 5,855 members of the tribe remain unallotted. These unallotted Papagos have, with very few exceptions, always lived on the public domain, for the reason that prior to May 28, 1912, there were no reservations established for them, since all the suitable lands within the Papago Reservation at San Xavier and the Gila Bend Reservations were long since fully appropriated by members of the tribe living on these reservations. . The attention of the Indian Office was directed by the Indian Rights Association to the need of affording protection to the Papagos residing on the public domain in 1910, and soon after that time allotting agents were sent into that field. On May 28, 1912, by Executive order, 108,620 acres of public lands were withdrawn from public settlement and are now held for the use of the Papago and other Indians, and until such time as allotments can be safely made to these Indians. The lands included in this Executive order will afford about 20 acres for each member of the tribe now numbering 5,855 on the public domain, as stated by the Assistant Secretary. It seems important to call attention of the committee to the statement by Mr. Smith, Senator from Arizona, in the Senate, on June 17, 1913, in which he said that: "There is not a Papago Indian in Arizona who has not more than enough room on the reservations set aside for the Papagos of Arizona. The Papagos who are not on the INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. 469 reBervation are off of it because they do not want to stay on it. There is not a Papago on the public lands of the United States that has not ample room for himself and family free to 'him within the reservations in that State. * * * i should judge that the Papagoshave in Arizona probably a thousand acres apiece — perhaps more — but of the amount I am not certain." As shown above, from official records, there are perhaps 20 acres for each Papago on the public domain within the reservations now provided for the Papago and other Indians. Attention having been directed to the section of country occupied by these Papagos living on the public domain in southwest Arizona by the prospect of railroad extension through that country, reports show that prospectors and settlers are becoming inter- ested in the lands occupied by these Papagos, and unless the greatest possible care is exercised by the Government in protecting their title to these lands these heretofore self-supporting Papagos will be rendered homeless and soon become an added charge upon the charity of the Government. It has b33n stated that the treaty made with the Navajo Tribe of Indians pro- hibits them from occupying lands outside the resarvation of that tribe, else they would lose all tribal rights, and section 13 of the treaty concluded at Bosque Redonda in 1868 confirms this view. This prohibition is not now in force, since Congress by general legislation long since removed this inhibition as to the right to take land on the public domain. In the year 1871 Congress pohibited the making of further treaties with Indian tribes, thus assuming the greater responsibility as guardian. Our people were aroused to the need of educating the Indians, thus leading them forward to citizen- ship and self-support. The necessary steps followed in inducing Indians to separate themselves from their tribes and in abandoning the tribal relations. To aid in accom- plishing this important task the benefits of the homestead laws were accorded Indians by the act approved March 3, 1875 (18 Stat. L., 420), and as an inducement to leave theii reservation each member electing to leave his reservation^ the statute provides, f oats, potatoes, barley, cabbages, carrots, and hardy root crops of hat kind, but if the seasons are unfavorable, which is often the case, vhj, even those crops are a failure. Senator Robinson. What do you mean by unfavorable seasons ? Mr. Perrin. That is when the frosts occur every month in the :rowing season. Senator Clapp. Does that condition apply to the section where the irrigated plan has been carried out ? Mr. Perrin. It does not apply so much in this area. Senator, as it 3 up here where you go closer to the mountains. Senator Clapp. Mr. Meritt, would it be possible to work out some ilan here— I do not know that it would— by which these lands that he water has been prepared for could be leased pending a time when he children of these Indians perhaps will want to farm ? That is, to void the disposal of these lands in such a way that as the tribe evelops and children of the future may develop a willingness to farm, avoid the farming lands having been disposed of ? I do not know whether it is possible. I should support the bureau provision. 488 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Meritt. Senator, I Diight say that the office, under the act of 1907, has given tentative allotments to each Indian upon the Black- feet Reservation. The Indians have heen given their choice of selecting irrigable lands, and some of them have selected 40 acres of irrigable land and 180 acres, I believe, of nohirrigable land, or 320 acres of grazing land. Those Indians who wanted agricultural land have been given that class of land. We can lease to or for the Indians these agricultural lands under existing law. Senator Clapp. In view of the suggestion that I have made in the nature of an objection, do you feel that this bill is the best solu- tion of this problem ? Mr. Meritt. We have worked it out very carefully. The matter^ has been considered in the department now ifor a year and we believe that this legislation will cure serious defects in the act of 1907. In my judgment that act of 1907 was positively vicious so far as the interests of the Indians of the Blackfeet Reservation were concerned, and we protect their interests in this proposed legislation. Senator Clapp. And as far as you can, in view of the limitations of the situation, safeguard as to the future Indians with reference to farming development. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; there will be no limitation on the agricul- tural development. STATEMENT OF HON. THOMAS J. WALSH, SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MONTANA. Senator Walsh. Mr. Chairman, before this inquiry goes any fur- ther, for the information of the Senators, I feel that an effort should be made to enlighten you more particularly to as the conditions there, and my effort to tell 3^ou now is rather prompted by the inquiry made by Senator Robinson, as to whether it would ever be possible to make these lands productive under irrigation, and generally in regard to the character of the lands as promising soire returns other than as mere grazing grounds. The country to the north here [indicating on map] is Canadian country. That is filling up very rapidly in settlement, and is culti- vated very extensively. Indeed, 20 or 30 years ago, nearly, a great irrigation project was instituted and carried out by Gait, the founder of the town of Gait, just east of the line here [indicating]; my recol- lection is, somewhere over the Canadian range, in that region there [indicating]. You wdll bear in mind that the Milk River here has its course here, and this is St. Marys River, that carries the water from St. Marys Lake up into the Canadian territory, and these are the headwaters of the Milk River. The St. Marys project takes the water from St. Marys and drops it into the Milk River, where it goes over into Canadian territory, and you have to take that water out in the Canadian territory right here.' After it goes below here it drops down into our country, and we have now an international agreement with Canada, under the terms of which they are permitted to take out a certain amount of this water from Milk River for irrigation, but they must allow a certain amount to flow^ down into our territory to the east. You will also bear in mind that this whole regiou from here [indicating] to the eastern boundary of the State, from the north end of the reservation to ^the eastern boundary of the State, 300 miles INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 489 distant, is all now settled up and is settling up, and is under cultiva- tion, extending no farther north than here [indicating]. So there is no reason for assuming at all that there is any difficulty about the irrigation of any of this country in the eastern part of the reservation. When we talk about frosts destroying and preventing crops, of course everybody has reference to the region here, while over here that is above 4,500 feet high. You understand, it is*the boundary of the Glacier National Park, and here is the great main railway over the Rocky Mountains, and as you rise this way, of course, you get frosts. Senator Robinson. I did not so understand Mr. Perrin. I under- stood him to say that the crops produced on this irrigable area of land had been largely dependent upon the season. I may have mis- understood him. Senator Walsh. With respect to that, let me say that the great Conrad irrigation project has its source of supply hi this stream, Birch Creek. Its diversion dam is right here, and it carries water out, and all this territory here is now under actual irrigation. Senator Robinson. Do I correctly understand you to say that as to the irrigable area of land on that reservation, there is no difficulty about the seasons ? Senator Walsh. Not the least bit in the world. Of course, the climate of this region here is practically the same; there is no sub- stantial difference between that and the climate of the Conrad irri- gation project, which is south here. In fact, there is not 20 miles difference between the two m latitude, so you need not trouble your- selves about that. Of course, what is stated here is correct. These lands have been put uneler irrigation, and no real cojiccrteel effort has ever been maele to try to make an agriculturalist of the Inelian. V»licther it can be elone or can not be elone, I am not going to uneler- take to say; but I do undertake to say that no real syst' niatic effort has ever been carried out to try to make him such. Indeed, th( y are not equipped. The way to do it is really to put them in groups of perhaps 10 or 15 families anel put one man as a supeivisor over them to teach them to cultivate the ground. I am not undertaking to say that it will ever be successful, but it is the only means. Senator Page. Can you tell us what prompted this legislation in 1907 — how it happened to have been introduced here as a part of the appropriation bill? Senator Walsh. I was going to inquire of the witness with respect to that matter. Senator Clapp. I can tell you. Senator Walsh. Perhaps Senator Clapp can tell us about that. My recollection about it is that the wishes of the Blackfeet Indians were tested out and that they petitioned for the opening of the entire reservation. Senator Page. That is denied by them now. Senator Walsh. If I am in error about that, I shall be very glad to be corrected, but I knew of the legislation at the time it was pending. I knew of the act of 1905, which was vetoed by President Roosevelt. He apparently thought it threw open the reservation, but he vetoed the act by reason of the fact that he believed that the rights of the Indians in the waters were not sufficiently protected and insisted 490 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. . upon an amendment to protect their rights in the waters of the reser- vation, which was made in the act of 1907, and that was approved. Senator Page. What is the north parallel there? Senator Walsh. That is the forty-ninth. I dare say that Senator Clapp wiri be able to give more definite information than I can, but that has always been my information, and that is why I wanted to ask Mr. Perrin how it was that the Indians have changed their minds about it. Senator Page. I think Senator Clapp was chairman of the com- mittee at that time when that was passed, and I think I was on the committee, and I think it was done at the request of the junior Senator from your State at that time. Senator Clapp. The junior Senator was a member of the com- mittee, but both Senators Carter and Dixon were very anxious, and one of the strong arguments that was made^and it took a great deal ol effort to get some of this legislation — was to secure water rights up there, and as Senator Walsh has stated, the act of 1905, President Roosevelt did not think, sufficiently safeguarded the rights ol the Indians, so the act of 1907 was prepared. Now, how far the Indians out there were in harmony with that, I can not say. Senator Page. Is it your recollection that they petitioned for it at that tune? Senator Clapp. No; I do not recall that they did or that they did not, but I know that the Senators from Montana tor a long time were trying to get as much irrigation started as they could, with refer- ence to securing waters from the Milk River, which at that time, before the settlement, it was desirable to get water from. Senator Page. I remember that Senator Dixon wanted a great deal more than we would give him. He was quite persistent and insistent that a large sum should be spent on this project. ^ Senator Robinson. Mr. Chairman, is there anyone here who is opposed to this project? Senator Lane. Mr. Hamilton. Senator Robinson. I suggest, with your permission, that we hear irom him. Senator Clapp. Belore he proceeds, I would like to ask Mr. Clark: What degree of Indian blood are you? Mr. Clark. A Httle less than half. Senator Clapp. A little less than half Indian ? Mr. Clark. Yes, sir; a little less than half white. Senator Clapp. Then, you are a little more than haK Indian ? Mr. Clark. Yes, sir. Senator Clapp. And how much Indian blood are you, Air. Perrin ? Mr. Perrin. One-quarter. Senator Clapp. One-quarter Indian ? Mr. Perrin. Yes, sir. Mr. Clark. Mr. Chairman, if I am allowed I would like to explain a question here that has been brought up. Senator Clapp. How much Indian blood are you ? Mr. Hamilton. I am supposed to be half. Senator Clapp. Before Mr. Hamilton proceeds, you desire to make a statement for the record ? Mr. Clark. Yes, sir. During Senator Carter's administration, or term, and also Senator Dixon's, at that time there was a change INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 491 beiiig made on the Blackfeet Reservation. They were trying to put the Blackfeet Reservation on an agricultural footing and we did not know what kind of a country it was; and the department, and I suppose Senator Carter and Senator Dixon, thought it would be a good agricultural country. Consequently, they started on an agri- cultural business. They were given extensively implements, all kinds of implements, and they tried it out. I tried it out myseK, and I tried it out to the extent that I have been gradually going down and have gone down until I have just naturally had to quit it. There is a man by the name of Goss up there who started in, and who had 200 head of cattle, and he tried to farm. He had a very good location. He lives right up in here [indicating]. There is his allotment. My allotment is right in here; and he tried it until he was gone practically broke and he has quit it and these Indians here have tried even before that, as Mr. Perrin said — they have tried agricultural pursuits on a small scale; that is, as large a scale as they could handle. Now, there are through here [indicating] about seven smaller ditches that have been built from our lunds, not through the Recla- mation Service, but all of these ditches have been abandoned; every one ot these ditches have beeu abandoned, simply because they did find out that it is no agricultural country, and we are party to this — it is not an agricultural country. In my country I have frosts that hit me every month in the year. Last year I was put in chaige ot a thrashing machine, and I went through here [indicating], down through here, and I did some thrashing tor farmers through here, down as far as here [indicating] for a man by the name of Mr. Harper. He is a white man who is intermarried, and he understands how to larm, and also lor a man named Higgins, who also understands how to farm; he is a good farmer and is recognized to be — he is intermar- ried — and others up along here. There is a man named Kipp, and I can say that Mr. Kipp had 3 acres of oats that thrashed out 11 bushels to the acre. Mr. Higgins thrashed out 14 bushels to the acre. Last year was considered a good season. They all have ditches, these fellows here, and this man down here bad the best crop; he had 21 bushels to the acre. Mine averaged around 14 busnels to the acre. Senator Walsh. How many acres do you have ? Mr. Clark. I have about 20 acres of winter wheat and about 25 acres ot oats. Senator Walsh. How many head of stock have you ? Mr. Clark. About 100 head oi cattle. Senator Walsh. Have you any horses '? Mr. Clark. About 20 head. Senator Walsh. Do you run them with anyone else, or run yours alone. Mr. Clark. No; I run them on my place myself. *- Senator Walsh. You do not bunch them with one of your relatives ? Mr. Clark. No, sir.^ Senator Walsh. How many head does Mr. Perrin have? Mr. Clark. Mr. Perrin has some sheep. I do not beUeve he has manv cattle. Senator Walsh. How many head of sheep does he run? Mr. Clark. I could not tell that. He could tell that himself. 492 INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BILL. Mr. Pekiiin. Four thousand five hundred. Senator Walsh. Where do you run your cafctle ? Mr. Clark. I run my cattle around south of my place here. There are some allotments there that have not been fenced in as yet, and we have been sort of using that as a common grazing ground there — those that have cattle and horses. Senator Robinson. Does the frost prevent the growing of crops on that irrigable land — the land over there which is proposed to be sold? Mr. Clark. Of course, the farther away you ^et from these allot- ments the less the frost hits. Right along here (mdicating) are those live glaciers that are being advertised and they usually make the atmosphere there in this section of the country cold. Those glaciers extend down about to here (indicating), and from there up, and I may say further that right about here is the top of this continent. Senator Robinson. If you will excuse me, that is not responsive to the question I asked. I asked you if the frost hindered the growing of crops in the irrigable area of land, and I would like an answer to that question. Mr. Clark. Well, they do to a certain extent, but not as bad as up here. I was just going to explain that the farther you got up here the more susceptible it is to frost. Senator Robinson. I can readily understand that. I do not think you need to explain that the altitude has a great deal to do mth that. But what I want to know is whether it is practicable for anybody to farm successfully within that irrigable area. Mr. Clark. It has been farmed right up through here by a man named Haggerty, and a man named Dunbar, and Mr. Harper, and Mr. Gillips. Mr. Haggerty, as far as we can judge, and as far as it appears, is playing a losing game and so are the rest of those fellows. Senator Clapp. Are you familiar with the eastern part of that reservation ? Mr. Clark. Yes, sir. Senator Clapp. Can you tell us whether or not it is fairly safe from frosts or is it subject to frosts? Mr. Clark. It is subject to frosts. Senator Robinson. Now, I asked that question three or four times. Is that the reason, in your opinion, why it is that no farming is being done there ? Mr. Clark. Yes, sir. Senator Page. His reply was that they were playing a losing game. I suppose he means by that that they can not make it profitable. Mr. Clark. I would like to say this: That this [indicating] is the very highest part of our continent. The waters flow into the Hudson Bay and go down to the Gulf, and you can see it is up on a pinnacle, and this particular part of the Blackfeet Reservation — that is the Blackfeet Reservation itself — is right up on top of the hill, and it is different from any other part of the country. WTien you go down 20 or 30 or 50 miles this way, or 30 or 40 miles that way, it is a differ- ent kind of country. It gets away from the frosts. The Chairman. Why do you not keep this other country for your- selves and give the white men the other part of it ? Why do you not play that game yourselves, rather than give -the best land to them ? Mr. Clark. Simply because we do not think it is successful grazing country as far as it has been tried out, and we deem, on the other INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 493 hand, that cattle raising is the only industry that these Indians have been really trained to understand, and they make a success of that when they would make a failure of the other. We do not want to take a chance on starting into this and then go broke, because after we go broke we won't have funds and we will be just where we were when we started in. We want to raise funds so that we can get on our feet, because the cattle business is a good business. Senator Lane. Why would it not be to the interest of the Indians to lease it to the white settlers, keeping the title in the hands of the Indians; and some day the land will be worth more money than it is now. Why would not that be satisfactory to the Indians ? Mr. Clark. If we could see that we could get enough money to put into it and use it for cattle, stock raising, we would be wilhng to hold our reservation intact, but we see no way of getting any money to start us into the cattle business unless we seU this land and sell it for cash and put that money into cattle. That is the only solution. Senator Robinson. Do you concede that if this amendment is adopted it will provide for the sale of practically all of the agri- cultural land on the reservation ? Mr. Clark.* Yes, sir; we admit that we are selling the best part of the reservation. Senator Walsh. Mr. Clark, that Badger Creek country there is as good country as there is on the reservation. That would not be in- cluded at all? Mr. Clark. No, sir. Senator Walsh. This Birch Creek country is just as good as any on the reservacion? Mr. Clark. Yes, sir; that has already been taken up. Senator Walsh. It is only taken up by the Indians ? Mr. Clark. Yes, sir; I say it is already taken up by the Indians. Senator Robinson. But it is not being farmed, is it? Mr. Clark. They have not made any success of it. 'Senator Robinson. What I am anxious to know from you — as an intelligent member of your tribe and one familiar with conditions there — have you determined that it is a wise ]:)olicy to preclude the probability of the Blackfeet Indians from ever having an opportunity to become an agricultural people ? Are you satified that their racial characteristics and training are such that it is wise to seU off practi- cally all the agricultural land and thus prevent them from having an opportunity to learn agriculture after a time ? Mr. Clark. Yes, sir; to answer either yes or no, we think it is better to start on the stock-raising basis and sell this land . Of course there are allotments there already of those who wanted allotments, but of course that would eliminate using that for any more allotments hereafter. Senator Robinson. Are the grazing lands that would be left on the reservation adequate to provide for the cattle that would be necessary to maintain all the Indians on the reservation ? Mr. Clark. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. What number of cattle would that reserve graze reasonably if these lands that you think ought to be sold were sold? Mr. Clark. Oh, the reservation would run 50,000 head of stock. Senator Walsh. How many have the Flowrree and Power people been accustomed to run there ? 494 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Clark. It is not the Flowrree and Power people now; but there were about 5,000 head of outside cattle. Senator Walsh. How many did they have ? Mr. Clark. They ran there at one time about 20,000 head of cattle. Senator Walsh. They ran about all they could, did they not ? Mr. Clark. Yes, sir. Senator Kobinson. Then, how is it that you expect to be able to run 50,000 if they ran about all they could and only ran about 25,000 ? Mr. Clark. Of course that included all our cattle there. Senator Robinson. How many cattle have you now? Mr. Clark. About 10,000 head of cattle now. Senator Robinson. That would make only 35,000. If those people ran 25,000 and the Indians only ran 10,000 and they were runmng practically as many as they could, that would make a discrepancy between your estimate of 50,000 possible there to be run and the actual number that you say have been successfully run. Mr. Clark. The actual number is that now. At the time the Flowrree people ran cattle there, that was about five years ago, and at that time we had around 25,000 head of cattle. Senator Robinson. Do you know how many Indians there are on the reservation ? Mr. Clark. Somewhere around 2,700 — a little more I think. Senator Robinson. And they could run approximately, if they had the range exclusively to themselves after this land was sold, approxi- mately 50,000 head ? Mr. Clark. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Would that support them? ]Vir. Clark. Yes, sir; we think that will put them on a self- supporting basis. Senator Lane. Now, whether they wanted to form or not, after you sell this land, they would be in the stock business permanently, would they not ? Mr. Clark. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. And if somebody put in a lot of sheep on their range it would not go so far for cattle ? Mr. Clark. We do not intend to allow any more sheep on there, not if we have anything to say about our affairs. Senator Robinson. Have you consulted Mr. Perrine about that? Senator Lane. You are going to shut out the farming and the sheep too. The Chairman. Do you rise to oppose this amendment, Mr. Ham- ilton ? STATEMENT OF ROBERT J. HAMILTON, OF BROWNING, MONT. Mr. Hamilton. Mr. Chairman, I am against it. I have agreed to this amendment on condition if this committee thinks it the best you can do for us, I accept it, but if you can do better, I am opposed to it strongly. Senator Robinson. What we are trying to find out ourselves is the best thing to do, and we do not want to dodge the issue. Mr. Hamilton. I am opposed to the amendment. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 495 Senator Robinson. Now tell us, in connection with that, why you are against it and what you think is the best thin^ to do. Mi. Hamilton. I will give you the statistical information that I fot from the Indian Ofhce so that you can get the figures correct. Fumber of Indians allotted, 2,623. and there are 200 that have not been allotted j number of acres that have been allotted, 881,228; agency land irrigated, 44 acres. This land was cultivated and iu garden and in little stuff for the agency employees; irrigable land in the new reservation, 122,500; agricultural land, 124 17/98. Senator Robinson. What is the area of irrigable land under ' cultivation ? Mr. Hamilton. Irrigable land, 122,500 acres. Senator Robinson. You do not mean that, do you ? Mr. Hamilton. In cultivation ? Senator Robinson. Yes; that is the way you read it. Mr. Hamilton. No; irrigable land in the reservation. Senator Robinson. But you said ''in cultivation" two or three times. Mr. Hamilton. No; in cultivation, 44 acres. That is the agency farm. Agricultural land, 124,000 1 7/98. That is appraised at $10 per acre. Agricultural land, second class, 151,000 155/110 of an acre, appraised at |6. Grazing land, 300,000 acres, at $2.50 an acre. Tim- berland, 44,240 acres, reserved. If we sell this land we diminish our resources in getting out any- thing for this land. If we hold onto this land we have always got something. When the land gets away from the Indian he is gone. When the Indian becomes landless he is homeless ; he has not got any- thing; he is being kicked from place to place; but as long as he has got the land and a home he has got something, and he will always live. If you give him cattle and horses he will dispose of them; they will get away and he is gone; he is up against it. If we can lease this land for a fair revenue, in the course of time we mil be able to get on our feet and pay the Government for the reclamation service done on our behalf. Of course, the reclamation has already been thoroughly discussed here, but the majority of the Indians upon the Blackfeet Reservation do not want to throw any part of this reservation open. The Chairman. You think the majority do not want to open it ? Mr. Hamilton. The majority do not. Senator Robinson. The other parties said they did: that is, practically all of them, if I understood it correct, did. What proof nave you to confirm your statement that they do not want it sold ? Mr. Hamilton. The proof I have is the petition that was signed by a majority of the people and already filed with this committee, but what action these people or the agents and the Indians have taken since I left the reservation, I do not know. I do not know what they have done since I left or what is the sentiment of the people now, but I have letters from the Blackfeet Reservation, all along, saying not to throw any part of this reservation open, but to lease these lands or do something with them to develop them. As Senator Walsh has said, this land has never been fairly tested as agricultural land. We have got these ditches on there, but there has not been a foot of land site turned over to the Indian allotments, except the experiment farm estabUshed by the Government there [indicating]. But along Birch Creek conditions are favorable on 496 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. the reservation. The settlers along Birch Creek raise good hay, which crop is always sure on any part of the reservation. Hay is worth now $8 per ton. That is the standard price for the hay. The Government pays that every year and we gauge our price upon that. If this land were irrigated, we could raise hay and sell it to the market and feed some to our stock too. Senator Page. How many months in the year do you have to keep your stock in the barns '? Mr. Hamilton. Four to six months. Last winter was an exceed- ingly good winter. We did not keep any cattle in the sheds. The biggest part of the winter they were out. Senator Page. We are colder in Vermont than you are. We have • to keep them six months in the barns. Senator Walsh. Do you keep them in the barn at alH Mr. Hamilton. No; we do not keep them in the barn at all — that is range stock. Senator Robinson. Have you any idea what the average value per acre of a crop is on that irrigable land ? Mr. Hamilton. What it would be worth now? Senator Robinson. Yes; land properly cultivated, if there was a sufficient test of it made to know? Mr. Hamilton. About $20 per acre. Senator Robinson It would yield that much ? Mr. Hamilton. Oh, what it would yield? I am not prepared to say. Senator Lane. How many tons of hay? Mr. Hamilton. Two tons. Senator Robinson. What would it be worth — S16? Mr. Hamilton. $16. The Chairman. And the irrigation cost is about $30 an acre? Mr. Hamilton. One moment, Senator. It will be worth more than that. Tliis wild bunch grass is selling for $8, but tame hay is selling for more. If youput it into timothy, it wiU bring more money. Senator Robinson. Wliat will it bring? Mr. Hamilton. About $10 a ton, on the average. Senator Robinson. It would yield an annual crop of approxi- mately $20 an acre, would it not ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. And the irrigation cost is about $30, and per- haps part of the irrigable land is said to be about $7. Senatoi Walsh. Let me correct you. It does not cost $30 an acre. Senator Robinson. Some one made that statement. Senator Walsh. That is not in accordance with the facts. The testimony is that there are $800,000 that have been expended, and that covered 78,000 acres. Senator Robinson. I took the statement of the assistant com- missioner. Senator Walsh. I have here the report of the irrigation commis- sion, showing results to date : Acres. Two Medicine unit, Seville flat 5, 000 Two Medicine unit, lateral " K " 3' OOO Badger-Fisher unit Ig' 000 26, 000 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 497 And the statement is made here — The development of Spring Lake Reservoir and the South Branch Canal unit of the Two Medicine system and the construction of distributary canals will furnish water for 15,000 acres of additional public land at a probable cost of $12.50 per acre. Senator Robinson. That is what it cost them as to the lands primarily within the project. I find that there are a great many- instances where the Indians have to pay enormouly high cost for tlie construction and maintenance where other lands are watered at a nominal cost. The object of my examination is still to find out whether it is really an agricultural country or not. Senator Clapp. Senator Robinson, you meant to inquire what the yield would be on irrigated land. Senator Robinson. I asked that — properly cultivated. Senator Clapp. He did not understand you. Senator Robinson. What would be the yield per acre if sufficient test has been made on the lands irrigated within the area proposed to be sold ? Mr. Hamilton. I would say about 3 tons per acre. Senator Robinson. I asked you that question before. Senator Clapp. He understood you to say lands that could be irrigated. Senator Robinson. How do you know ? Senator Clapp. Because he told me so. Senator Lane. What kind of hay do you raise ? Mr. Hamilton. Oat hay and timothy and red top. Senator Lane. You would not cut any 3 tons of timothy to the acre? Mr. Hamilton. If it is irrigated. Senator Robinson. That is not of primary consideration. If it should appear that this is not agricultural country at all, it would probably be conclusive of the question that it could not be made a profitable agricultural country. It would probably be conclusive. Senator Lane. But if it is not an agricultural country, how are you going to sell it to the whites to farm ? You would be swindhng them. Senator Robinson. I would be more interested in disposing of it for the benefit of the Indians, under all the circumstances, than in determining that question. The whites would be probably better able fco take care of themselves than the Indians. Senator Lane. You think if you should lease it and use the reve- nues from it to buy stock for the Indians, it would be a good asset to keep in possession of the property ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. I do, too. Senator Robinson. What would it lease for? Mr. Hamilton. Those lands ought to be leased for about 40 cents an acre — ^froin 30 to 40 cents an acre. Senator Robinson. Let us see what that means. What area could be leased for 40 cents an acre within the area that you propose to sell ? , X 11 Mr Hamilton. Within the area that we propose to seU^ Senator Robinson. Yes. I do not know whether I am so exceed- indy dull that I can not make myself understood, but what I am trying to determine is whether your proposition that the land should 498 INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. be reserved and leased is a sensible business proposition, -^^'^j ^ it should be leased, I ask you the simple question what this land that you propose to sell can be leased for ? Mr. Hamilton. Forty cents an acre. Senator Robinson. All right. What area at 40 cents an acre i Mr. Hamilton. About 200,000 acres— from 200,000 to 300,000 acres. That would be right in here [indicating]. Senator Robinson. That is all this area you are going to sell? Mr. Hamilton. No, sir; it is off in here [indicating] — 156,000 acres of land. Senator Robinson. I still ask you the question. What area of land in the area that is proposed to be sold can be leased, and at wha^t priced; Mr. Hamilton. Forty cents an acre, right along in here [indicating]. Senator Robinson. What area? Mr. Hamilton. One hundred and fifty-six thousand acres. Senator Robinson. That would make about sixty-odd thousand, would it not ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. And you think that instead of selling the land it should be held as now, and leased ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir; because we have got about that much revenue out of this land, when we have grazed, by this document — $50,000 to S60,000 a year for grazing fees, but they are paying $1 to $1.50 a head. Senator Robinson. Now, pursuing your idea further, do you think these Indians will in time take an interest in agriculture and become farmers ? Mr. Hamilton. If you give them a fair chance. Senator Robinson. What ought to be done in order to give them a fair chance that is not being done ? Mr. Hamilton. Give them proper administration. Senator Robinson. I am not asking you for a general statement Uke that. It appears from the evidence that has been subniitted here that they have the land under water; that annually there has been furnished them for a number of years all the tools that are re- quired to cultivate this land, and yet it also appears that not one of them have cultivated a foot of the land. I want to ask you what specific thing ought to be done that has not been done in the admin- istration of the affairs of that reservation in order to encourage them to take hold of the land and cultivate it ? Mr. Hamilton. Give us tools to work with. Senator Robinson. The statement has been made that they have been furnished with tools. Is that statement correct ? Mr. Hamilton. Oh, there are some. Senator Robinson. Well, you heard the statement of the wit- nesses. Mr. Hamilton. It is not sufficient to warrant anybody going into the business proper. Senator Robinson. Oh, well, even if that were true it ought to appear that if they had been furnished tools that they did some farming. , INDIAN APPEOPKIATION BILL. 499 Mr. Hamilton. They do along these valleys. They make an at- tempt to farm along the valleys, along Two Medicine Valley. They farm along in there. Senator Robinson, Have you any statistics or information to show what the total crop was that was produced on that reservation last year ? Mr. Hamilton. No, sir. Senator Robinson. I am not so much interested in the opinions because you eminent gentlemen from the reservation differ in your opinions. What I am interested in is the facts in order that I may form my own opinion. Mr. Hamilton. I will give you some idea. There [indicating] is the Holy Family Mission located on Two Medicine. They raise everything they want to use for the school. They have got about 300 acres. They raise all kinds of grain there to run the school and they also raise hay on the 300 acres of land at the Mission. They do it every year. But that is way down in the valley. Senator Robinson. Now, turn to the area they are proposing to sell, and confine your remarks to that. How much crop was pro- duced, approximately, within that area last year and if nothing was produced tell me why there was not a cro{) produced there ? Mr. Hamilton. There are a few crops raised along this area, along Birch Creek — along in there; just along the valley. There was no water in this ditch last year. Senator Lane. Why was there no water in the ditch last year? Mr. Hamilton. The ditch was completed but still they did not turn the water on. I do not know who was to blame for that. Senator Robinson. Was that the reason there was nobody there to farm ? Mr. HLamilton. There was nobody there to farm. There was no water on it. Senator Lane. No water and no farming ? Mr. Hamilton. No, sir. Senator Lane. I want to ask you about the farming of this allotted land under irrigation. You say there is no water in it ? Mr. Hamilton. There is no water in it because there is no land turned over. There was nobody on it. Senator Lane. They could have used water if they had been there? Mr. Hamilton. They could have used it. If water had been de- livered, it would have been used. Senator Lane. Why did they not? These people are furnished tools and plows and harrows and things to farm with along this ditch r Mr. Hamilton. No, sir; there was nobody down there. It is just 40- acre allotments. Senator Lane. Is that where the Government has spent $800,000 to irrigate this land and there is no farming going on ? Mr. Hamilton. That is it. Senator— down in this place [indi- cating]. Senator Lane. You said they would lease their land for 40 cents an acre. You meant grazing land. Mr. Hamilton. Grrazing land. ,. Senator Lane. On this land, what kind of crops do they get ? What are the shares of rents ? 39746— FT 2— I d ' 6 500 INDIAN APPKOPRIATIOX BILL. Mr. Hamilton. Half. Senator Lane. That ought to bring them $5 or $6 or SS an acre. Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. And it is going to sell for how much under this bill ? Mr. Meritt, you are going to sell this land for about how much ? Mr. Meritt. Wc are gomg to sell it at public auction for the amount it will bring. Senator Lane. What do you think it will bring? Mr. Meritt. The irrigable lands will bring about $30 an acre. Senator Lane. He said he could get about $8 a crop off it of on shares — share and share. Mr. Perrine. There is nobody who has got any crop off of it. It is a mere opinion. Senator Lane. Does anybody run the crops on shares ? Mr. Perrin. Nobody has rented any land in that whole country. Senator Lane. Nobody? Mr. Perrin. No, sir. Senator Lane. The price has to be established ? Mr. Perrin. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. Do you know anything about rentmg land on shares ? What are the rates in that State ? Mr. Perrin. We do not know anything about any land that is being rented around there. There are no stated lands rented except grazing land. The State rents its grazing land at 10 cents an acre, and Mr. Hamilton makes the statement that he can lease the lands at 40 cents an acre and it is agreed upon among all stockmen up there, who know what they are talking about, that it takes about 30 acres of grazing ground to run a steer on. At that rate, stockmen, in order to run cattle on there if turned over to them, would have to pay $12 a head. Senator Lane. Let me ask you this: How many acres of grazing land are there on the reservation that will be left after you sell this off? . Mr. Perrin. There are about 450,000 or 500,000 acres. Senator Lane. And it takes 30 acres of that to support one head of stock ? Mr. Perrin. About 30 acres to support an animal the year around. Senator Lane. How many do you estimate that will run — how many head of cattle ? Mr. Perrin. I do not know; I have not taken the time to figure that up. I am not interested in leasing that out to stockmen. Senator Lane. It would be less than 17,000 head, according to your own estimate of the number of cattle that the reservation will support. If you go into the stock business and sell off your agricul- tural land, and you have 3,000 Indians, there would be six head to each Indian — about six head of cattle — and that is the mess of pottage you will receive for your inheritance. Mr. Perrin. But you do not put in the allotment. . Senator Lane. I am asking you how much Mr. Perrin. That reservation comprises about 1,520,000 acres. Senator IjANe. That is what I want to find out — how many acres you have of grazing land in there, Mr. Perrin. I have not the figures with me, but I have the figures to show the land that has been allotted and the amount of surplus INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 501 land, but the whole aggregate of it comprises 1,520,000 acres— some- thing of that kind. Senator Lane. And you are selling off something over 150,000— you are contemplating to sell 150,000, are you? Mi\ Perrin. Yes, su-; in this tract down here [indicating[. Senator Lane. That would leave you 850,000 acres of land. How much of that is timber country — what proportion of it that is not grazing country ? Mr. Perrin. That is not anything; there i.re about 44,000 acres of timberland that is reserved to the Indians. Senator Lane. But timbered in all— that is, timbered so that it is not a No. 1, first-class range, ^ Mr. Perrin. But all that thnberland can be used in the summer time when there is no snow on the ground. It is not available in winter. Senator Lane. It is not very good grazing in the summer, is it? Mr. Perrin. I do not see why it is not. The stockmen from the outside break their necks to get in there. Senator Lane, Is that as good as the open land for grazing? Does it raise as much bunch grass as the open land that is untimbered ? Mr. Perrin. No; on account of the timber; but of course the stock could graze around among the timber. Senator Lane. Of course it is not, and 3^ou know it is not, and every- body who has been in a timber country knows that it does not raise half as much bunch grass. Mr. Perrin. There is no bunch grass. ■ Senator Lane. Well, any grass — wild grass, tame grass, or any- thing else. It never did it and it never will. Mr. Perrin. I do not know what you term ''bunch grass." We term ''bunch" buffalo grass. It grows about that high [indicating]. Some men will caU grass that grows in the mountains that high [indicating] bunch grass. Senator Myers. Mr. Chairman, I submit that it would be proper for Mr. Hamilton to finish his statement. The Chairman. Yes. You may proceed, Mr. Hamilton. Mr. Hamilton. This is the reason why I am opposing this proposi- tion. We have a httle coal there that has not been tested and has never been developed. If we can develop this coal land, the Govern- ment can pay out of this coal land for this reclamation obligation, if we have to pay it. It is scattered aU along in here [indicating]. These coal mines are right in here and it is along in here, this six mile strip. There is iron ore that has been discovered — magnetic iron ore. ' The Chairman. You are not offering that for sale, are you ? Mr. Hamilton. No, sir; we are not offering that for sale. If there is anything in those resources, if it could be developed, it would enable us to pay off this debt. Then the oil has been discovered in the mountains, not in paying quantities, but owners of those oil fields have discontinued their work upon the statement of the Geological Survey and the Great Northern Railway men that the oil Kes on the reservation side. So they got it into their heads to discontinue the work and drill for oil on the reservation side. I have the analysis of the oil that has been gotten frbm those mountains, and I would Uke to have it go into the record. 502 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. The Chairman. It will be inserted in the record. (The paper referred to is as follows:) Sherburne Mercantile Co., Browning, Mont., January 29, 1914. The following is a copy of analysis of oil taken from holdings of the Swift Current Oil Co., on Lake Sherburne. Analysis of oil from Sunft Cunent Oil Land & Power Co. [By Dr. A. G. Mans, chemist for Armour & Co., Chicago.] Distillate. Gasoline A . . . Kerosene B... Lubricating C Lubricating D Asphaltum E. Temperature. 150° C 150-300° C 300°C , Still higher Residue by difference . Volume. C. f. 1 90 33 5 Per cent: * 0.1 36.0 54.0 9.6 100.0 This copy taken for Robert J. Hamilton, by J. H. Sherburne. Mr. Hamilton. I brought samples of this magnetic iron ore and coal, and I took them over to the Bureau of Mines for assay. I have not been able to get a report on the assay as yet. To show here why I am opposing the opening up of any part of this reservation, if there is a possibihty that it is in the interest of the Blackfeet Reser- vation, they ought to be thoroughly tested and developed. They have an interest which ought to be developed. That will give the Blackfeet Reservation an additional resource to pay off our debts and for the su]pp0it and civilizaticn of the Blackfeet Indians. The Chairman. Is there anyone else present who desires to be heard ? Senator Walsh. Mr. Chairman, I would hke to ask this witness a question before he leaves the stand. Apparently, then, Mr. Ham- ilton, the Indians all agreed that they do not want the present act carried out ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. Senator Walsh. Is that correct ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir; they do not want this act. Senator Walsh. The present act, at least, they want repealed ? Mr. Hamilton. That is correct. Senator Walsh. Is there any dissent among them as to that ? Mr. Hamilton. The majority of the full bloods do not want this present law carried out. They want it repealed. Senator Walsh. What I want to know is if there are any of the Indians, whether they are haK bloods or full bloods, who do want the present act carried out? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. Senator Walsh. Who are they ? Mr. Hamilton. The present act be carried out? Senator Walsh. Yes. Mr. Hamilton. We are united on that, not to carry the act out. Senator Walsh. There are none of them who are not agreed that the act shall be wiped out of existence ? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 503 , Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. ^ Senator Page. That is the act of 1907? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir; that is the thing we want repealed entirely. Senator Walsh. What effort was made at the time that act was before Congress for consideration to take the views of the Indians concerning it. Mr. Hamilton. Senator Dixon came up there before he was elected and brought a proposition to the tribe, whether or not the Blackfeet Reservation wanted it. Senator Walsh. That was when he was in the House ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir; and then he was running for Senator — the first time he was running for Senator — and he came up on the Blackfeet Reservation electioneering and asked the Indians whether or not those lands ought to be allotted. The Indians said yes they should be allotted. That was the only consultation that was ever had with the Blackfeet Indians. Senator Walsh. Do you know of any record in the Indian Office of any assent of the Indians to the act of 1907? Mr. Hamilton. No, sir; I do not. Senator W^lsh. Do you know of any council of the tribe that was held to consider the advisabihty of passing that bill ? Mr. Hamilton. I do not know of any council. Senator Walsh. You do not know whether such council was held or was not held ? Mr. Hamilton. I do not know — not the general council; but the tribal council had a session there that I did not know anything about. Senator Walsh. Was there anything like a petition circulated 'among the Indians asking their assent to the bill ? Mr. Hamilton. I do not know; I never saw it, and I never heard of it. There may have been one, but I never heard of it. Senator Walsh. The act has been in force now nearly seven years, or passed seven years. Is this the fu*st time that any. protest has been made by the Indians against the enforcement of the act, Mr. Hamilton ? Mr. Hamilton. No; it is not the fh'st time. Senator Walsh. Have you ever been down here heretofore demand- ing that the act be repealed ? Mr. Hamilton. Last year I was here. Senator Walsh. And you were urging at that time that the act be repealed ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. Senator Walsh. And that the reservation be not opened ? Mr, Hamilton. Be not opened. Senator Walsh. Do you know of anybody else who was here at that time or any other time, opposing the opening of the reservation ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir; the other Indians, the chiefs who were down with me at that time opposed it. Senator Walsh. How many of those were there ? Mr. Hamilton. There were four — three full-bloods and one mixed blood. Senator Walsh. How generally did they represent the Indians on the reservation ? 504 INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. Mr. Hamilton. Well, three of those were councilmen. In fact, they were all councilmen. Senator Walsh. Did they fairly, you think, speak the sentunent of the Indians ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. ^ t j- i Senator Walsh. That is, if you wanted to learn what the Indiana up there thought of the proposition, you could go and talk with those four men to find out about it ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir; you mean on the reservation ? Senator Walsh. Yes. Mr. Hamilton. I speak generally. Everybody on the reservation consulted them about this land. Senator Walsh. I understand ; but in endeavoring to find out what the sentiment was, you would go to those men to find out? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. Senator Walsh. You apparently are satisfied that the allotments should be made ? Mr. Hamilton. We are satisfied with the allotments. Senator Walsh. So far as that is concerned, you do not want that work undone ? Mr. Hamilton. No, sir. Senator Walsh. Each Indian wants to have his own land ? Mr. Hamilton. His own land, to know where we are. We want the whole of the surplus land intact. Senator Page. You do not want the surplus land sold ? Mr. Hamilton. No, sir. Senator Walsh. Do you live at Browning ? Mr. Hamilton. That is my post office. I hve up a little northwest of there. Senator Walsh. Have you some stock? Mr. Hamilton. I have a few head — about 20 head of horses; no cattle. Senator Walsh. Have you anything to suggest concerning how generally your ideas concerning the lack of wisdom in opening this eastern end of the reservation prevails ? Do you think that more than a majority of the Indians coincide with you? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. If you put it to a vote on the Blackfeet Reservation, it will be that way. Senator Walsh. These gentlemen have brought a resolution here that was adopted by the council of the tribe held in the month of February. What do you say as to whether that resolution does or does not speak the results of the deliberations of that council ? Mr. Hamilton. I do not know anything about that. Senator Walsh. Were you present ? Mr. Hamilton. No; I was here. Senator Walsh. Oh, I see. Have you any information about the matter ? Mr. Hamilton. No, sir; I never got any information. Senator Walsh. When the council is held, how many are supposed to attend ? You speak about these gentlemen as council men. Mr. Hamilton. There are 18. Senator Walsh. Eighteen council men. Have you any informa- tion about how many were present at this particular council? INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 505 Mr. Hamilton. No, sir; I do not know how many were present. Senator Walsh. You have not learned from home ? Mr. Hamilton. I have not learned from home. Senator Walsh. Have you learned from home what were the con- siderations which induced the adoption of that resolution at the council ? Mr. Hamilton. I have learned that the adjoining towns, just off the reservation, are bringing pressure on the Indians to have this land opened. Senator Walsh. Wliat tow^ns do you refer to ? Mr. Hamilton. Cut Bank, Valier, Conrad, and Great Falls. Some of those gentlemen have communications from those towns, from commercial houses, urging that this land be thrown open to settle- ment. Senator Walsh. Yes; they bring resolutions from those towns. You think it was those towns that brought some influence to bear upon members of the council ? Mr. Hamilton. I think so. Senator Walsh. Has the (question of repealing this act of 1907 been agitated among the Indians there ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. Senator Walsh. For how long ? Mr. Hamilton. It has been talked about for a quite a while. It has been talked over ever since we started in Senator Walsh. There seems to be a marked difference of opinion between yourself and those other gentlemen concerning the wisdom of opening that part of the reservation. Can you tell the committee one reason that inclines you to the one opinion and they to the other opinion of a selfish character ? Mr. Hamilton. No, sir; I do not think so. ... ". Senator Walsh. You think you have no selfish interest in insisting upon keeping the reservation intact ? Mr. Hamilton. No, sir; I have not any at all. Senator Walsh. You are simply guided by the consideration of what you think is the best interests of all ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. Senator Walsh. C an you assign any selfish interest to those other gentlemen in seeking to have the other end opened ? Senator Lane. He should not be asked to assign a selfish reason. Senator Walsh. I do not care to ask him if you do not care to have me. Senator Clapp. If lie knows any. Senator Lane. If he knows any. The Chairman. Ask him if he could assign— if he knows of any. Senator Page. I think it is a very proper question, m view of the fact that he assumes that he is right and that they are wrong. If they are as well-prepared to judge as he is, I would hke to have him give his reasons as to why those people took the course they did when it is opposed to yours ? , . n i .1 x Mr. Hamilton. I think those towns liave mnucnced them to advocate the opening of this reservation Senator Walsh Do any of them live in those towns, or near them? 506 INDIAISr APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Hamilton. Mr. Perrin lives in Cut Bank; that is his home there Senator Myers Mr Hamilton, were you not present on the 7tli day of February at this tribal meeting when the resolutions were passed giving these gentlemen their instructions — were you not present at Browning in the meeting yourself ? Mr. Hamilton The 7th day of February? Senator Myers. The 7th day of February, at the tribal meeting in Browning, when these resolutions were passed. Mr. Hamilton. I think those gentlemen were elected on the 7th day of March. Mr. Perrin. When we had that map up and we were discussiuf this, were you not present there ? Mr. Hamilton. Oh, on the 7th day of February? Senator Myers. Yes. Mr. Perrin. You were present and opposed it ? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. Senator Myers. Did not the majority vote on it at that meeting? Mr. Hamilton. No, sir; they did not vote on it at that time. Senator Walsh. Wliat was the subject of the discussion there? Mr. Hamilton. I challenged the election of those men at that time. I recall the fact, but I was told smce that they were elected on the 7th day of March. Now, they claim they were elected on the 7th day of February. Senator Walsh. What I want to know is -what the discussion was there. Mr. Hamilton. Opening up the reservation. A majority of the people opposed it; they did not want it opened. We had a meeting when they brought this matter up. On the •J7th day of December W6> had a meeting again and brought the matter up and a majority of the full bloods were opposed to it, and then they elected this com- mittee at that time to araft a resolution of protest against opening this reservation. Those very gentlemen took part in that document, and it went into this record, opposing it. Then after the five dele- gates were elected in January w^e started down here, and then the agent arrested us and we could not come. The agent was advocating to have his crowd sent dowQ here to advocate the opening of these lands. Now, we waited until the 7th day of February after that election was taken --on the following Monday —it was taken on Sat- urday. On the following Monday I left for Washington and what took place after that I do not know. But the Indiaiir^^ opposed throw- ing any of tliis land open all the time. The Chairman. Are you through with your statement? Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, I stated to the committee at the opening of this discussion that the Indians here in Washington were in favor of the legislation that we offered. In order to justify that statement, I would like to ask Mr. Hamilton if he was not present at the Indian Office a few days ago, and if he did not agree with the other Blackfcet Indians that this legislation should be enacted ? The Chairman. You can answer that yes or no. Senator Lane. No; he qualified his answer to that a while ago. He said if it was the best he would take it. The Chairman. Were you present ? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BIL-Ij. 507 , Mr. Hamilton. Yes, sir; this resolution Senator Lane, Why did you do that? Why did you agree to that then if you are opposing it now — if you agreed to it the other day? Mr. Hamilton. They put it up to me and it was impossible to do anything else. Senator Lane. That is what he said awhile ago. A half loaf is better than no bread. (Mr. Hamilton was thereupon excused.) STATEMENT OF CHARLES W. BUCK, OF BROWNING, MONT. Mr. Buck. Senators, I am ashamed and surprised to have one of our intelhgent mixed bloods get up here and make a statement of that kind. The Chairman. To whom do you refer? Mr. Buck. I refer to Mr. Hamilton. He has made a statement here that has no ground whatever. The first was leasing the land at 40 cents an acre to stockmen . I would like to ask him what he intends to raise on that land at 40 cents an acre. He must intend to raise gold bricks. When we come down to leasing land at 40 cents an acre, I will sell my cattle and go into the leasing business, as far as raising crops is concerned. Senator Walsh. I will say that the Indian Office has just nov/ made a lease of, I think, 145,000 acres of the Crow Reservation for $22,500. That is a grazing privilege. Senator Lane. Who was that to ? Senator Walsh. They just closed a lease to an Omaha man. My recollection it is 145,000 acres for $22,500. Senator Lane. Yes; the Crows are kicking about this cattle lease, and it is being investigated by the commission now. Mr. Buck. As lar as lurnishing implements to farm with is con- cerned, you can go up on the reservation and see plows and harrows all over the country there. They are for farming, and they are the implements they have. As far as implements are concerned they have a lot of implements, and last year there were 50 teams bought for those Indians to go ahead and larm their allotments and not one of them has put the teams to use. As far as hay is concerned, selling hay for $16 a ton, you ran buy^ all kinds of hay up there Senator Clapp. He did not say $16. He said $8 for common hay. Mr. Buck. You can buy it for $3.50 a ton— I have bought it- wild hay. Senator Page. That is in the stack? Mr. Buck. In the stack. Senator Page. What does it cost to harvest the hay— cut the hay and put it in stacks ? i • i j ■ Mr. Buck. I paid $4.50 a ton to a fellow to cut his own hay and put it in a stack for me. , Senator Page. Then it is not worth what it costs to harvest it t Mr. Buck. That is all he is selling it for. I do not know who else would give any more for it. i ^ The Chairman. Do you favor this proposed amendment, or are you opposed to it ? 508 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Buck. I favor this. Mr. Hamilton says the only reason the Indians have is in here. I would like to see the reasons the Indians have. The Chairman. Referring to that land which has been allotted and upon which the irrigation project has been built, do you think that is susceptible of raising crops ? Do you think that is good agri- cultural land or bad land ? Mr. Buck. Those are the best in the reservation. The extreme best we have over there. Senator Lane. And you are in favor of selling that? Mr. Buck. I am in favor of selling that and giving stock to the Indians. ♦ Senator Lane. You are in favor of selling good land, on which the Government has expended for your tribe hundreds of thousands of dollars of your money to put it in shape so you can use it; you regard it as valueless land ? Mr. Buck. You could not put that land to any better use than to sell it and put the proceeds into buying cattle. The Chairman. Do you not think the Indians could be taught to cultivate the land there ? Mr. Buck. I do not know how they could be taught unless you had a regunent of soldiers down there to keep them on theii' allot- ment and make them farm. Senator Page. Why do you object to leasing it ? Mr. Buck. I do not object to leasing it, but selling it right out would be better for the Indians. The Chairman. If you leased it you would have it for your children and your children's children in the years to come. If you sell it, it is forever gone from you. Mr. Buck. If you can assure me that those Indians will be bene- fited by holding this land and leasing it, I would be heartily in favor of it, but I want to be sure on that first. The Chairman. Of course I know nothing about it. Senator Walsh. How much do you think it ought to bring — the 156,000 acres — if it were leased? Mr. Buck. As it is now — the way the country is there now — you could not run over, wel), we will say, 15,000 head of cattle on it — outside cattle. Senator Walsh. How many head of sheep do you think could be run on it ? Mr. Buck. I am not experienced in sheep, so I can not say. Senator Walsh. 15,000 head of cattle? Mr. Buck. Yes, sir. Senator Walsh. Do you think that this 156,000 acres would run 15,000 head of cattle? Mr. Buck. I mean the whole reservation. Senator Walsh. I am speaking of those two rows of townships. We want to talk about the leasing proposition for a minute. How many cattle do you think would be grazed on those two townships ? Mr. Buck. I have not figured that, but it could be easily deter- mined — about 30 or 35 acres to the animal. Senator Lane. You think that the whole reservation will graze about 15,000 head of cattle? Is that what you said? Mr. Buck. Yes, sir. INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 509 Senator Lane. You have 1,000 head of cattle, have you ^ Mr. Buck. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. You are running a thousand head. Now, if the Governnaent sells this irrigable land and puts the rest of the amount into business, that would stock about 14 others outside of yours in the cattle business, and that would use up all the range, would it not— 14 other men like yourself ? Mr. Buck. I am spealdng of the unallotted land, when I say that. Senator Lane. It will only carry 15,000 head of cattle. That would not be enough to support the Blackf eet, anyhow ? Mr. Buck. I am speaking of the cattle that you could lease on there. Senator Walsh. You get a dollar a head for them ? Mr. Buck. $2. Senator Walsh. So you could make it produce you $30,000 a 3^ear ? Mr. Buck. That would be stocking it to its fullest capacity, and if you continue to do that, consequently the range would play oi t and you would not have any range. Senator Lane. Have not cattle been issued before by the Govern- ment for the reservation ? Mr. Buck. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. What became of them? Mr. Buck. In the winter of 1906-7 it was an extremely hard winter and there was a kt of cattle lost that winter. Senator Lane. They died, in fact, for want of feed, did they not? Mr. Buck. They froze to death. It was extremely cold— lots of them. Senator Lane. But if they had had hay put up for them and a shed to run them in they would not have frozen? Mr. Buck. I had hay to give away. I gave my neighbors, about eight of them, hay — from 15 to 20 loads of hay. You asked me how the cattle diminished. I will tell you. Since the ration system was cut off from the Indians entirely, they have been thrown on their cattle for a living, and, consequently, they ate their cattle out — between that and the traders' cattle down there. Senator Lane. If it is such a climate that cattle will freeze to death — freeze to death with plenty of feed to eat — what kind of a country is it going to be to put people into the cattle lusiness ? Will you not get another hard winter like that that would wipe out all the cattle in one season, the same as they did that year? Is that not liable to happen again ? The Indians would all be wiped out, too. Mr. Buck The Indians will look for a hard winter now and will be in better shape. They will be prepared Senator Lane. How prepared ? Mr. Buck. For instance, myself — I have a shed out there. It is 300 feet long and is shingled. If I do not have a hard winter, my cattle will be fat. But I found some of them down and their hocks and legs frozen, and I had to knock them in the head. Their legs were frozen, and I had to kill them and take the hide off them. Senator Lane. That will necessitate these people putting up shed& to care for their cattle. Mr. Buck. Yes, sir.;* and if those Indians are given a cliance m the cattle business I think they would make better success. 510 INDIAN" APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Lane. You would have to do better if you wanted to make a success. ^^ Mr. Buck. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. If they are going into the cattle business, is it not necessary in addition to having these sheds to have hay for the cattle ? Mr. Buck. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. If that is necessary, is it not desirable for them to Jiave some good hay land upon which to raise the hay ? Mr. Buck. You have got to have hay land. Senator Lane. Is not that land under the irrigation ditch the best hay land on the reservation; will it not raise good hay on account oi being irrigated ? Mr. Buck. Irrigation is a good thing, and it will raise hay, but I want to say that all up the bottoms here they are natural haymakers. Senator Lane. But here you have a piece ol land that you spsnt $800,000 on to fit it for raising hay, in good shape so you could' go into the cattle business, that you are trying to dispose of and go into the cattle business minus your very best asset. You ought to keep that land, more particularly if you are going into the cattle business. Here is land that wiU raise more hay per acre than any land that you have, and you have a cUmate there where you say cattle freeze to death right alongside the haystack. It seems to me if you are going into the cattle business you will have to keep the irrigated land, and it seems to me that if your cattle sometimes freeze you are taldng a great risk, and it v/ould be safer for you to keep this land. I understand tiie lands are subject to irrigation? Mr. Perrin. No : the Indians are opening their allotments. Senator Lane. But this land that can be irrigated is the best agricultural land — is that what you are selling off? I may be mis- taken about that. Senator Walsh. No; their purpose is to hang on to their allot- ments. Senator Lane. This land that you are selling is land that can not be irrigated ? Senator Walsh. No; the difference between 45,000 and 78,000 '«w , ' INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 527 I do not look with any degree of favor upon that kind of a project. Of course, when it comes to the unallotted lands you must bear in mind that the whole country from the eastern line of the reservation to the eastern line of the State, a distance of 300 miles, is now being settled up. Of course, settlers are coming in there rapidly. They are exercising their homestead rights and of course until all of that land is taken up a man is not gomg to take this land and pay rent when he can get a good piece of land and acquire title without any expenditure. The Government invites him to go and take the land without any expense at all, and he obviously will not rent it. Senator Lane. I would like to ask you there if he would not find it profitable to rent it, will he buy it ? Senator Walsh. That is another thing about the bill that I want to invite your attention to. The bill contemplates this land shall be put up at public auction and sold to the highest bidder. It provides that of the irrigated land no one shall be permitted to take more than 80 acres. That is perhaps a wise provision, but it was then provided that the acreage which would be taken out of the irrigated land should be in the discretion of the Secretar}^ of the Interior. He might allow one man to buy 10,000 acres of that land. I do not think that is a wise pro- vision. I think the land ought to be subject only to homestead entry, the same as all the other land. The Chairman. This might be of interest to the committee. I believe it is the purpose bo make a point of order on this amendment. If there is going to be a point of order made on it, had we not better report it out, if the committee wishes it to be done, in a separate bill rather than to be discussed here on the appropriation bill and then have it go out on a point of order ? Senator Robinson. Undoubtedly; there can not be any question about that if there is going to be a point of order made on it. It is clearly subject to a point of order. Senator Walsh. If anybodj'' wants to make the point of order. Senator Lane. I will tell you one reason that I am going to make it, if you would like to hear that. Senator Robinson. If you will pardon me, I really do not think it is germane, if you are determined to make the point of order. It is for the purpose of saving time. If we can not get it in the bill, I think we ought to consider it as a separate bill. It will save us much time and you, too. Senator Walsh. Senator Walsh. The practice has been to make these proposi- tions for opening reservations features of the general appropriation bih. That is the course that has been pursued in the past and I find it a little difficult to understand, in view of the situation of affairs, why anybody should be opposing that course of procedure now. ^ ^. ^. .,, Senator Lane. I consider that these Indians are parting with their birthright for a mess of pottage, and it is a bad investment for them, the very worst you could possibly make for them, and as I will be held partly responsible for their affau-s I refuse to be made ^ ^enJtor Walsh. May I ask the Senator what plan he would propose ^ 528 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. Senator Lane. I propose this one, to begin with, to try to get up something, if we can find it, which would be of benefit to the Indians and adopt it. Senator Walsh. The Senator will understand that my connection with this matter dated from ihy appearance here yesterday. Senator Lane. I am not making any reflection upon you. Senator Walsh. I had no part in it. I came nere to listen to what might be said for and against the matter, so that I am as new to the matter as the Senator is himself. When these gentlemen came down some time ago, the entire delegation went down and spent the evening with the commissioner and with me. I put it in perfect good faith to the Senator from Oregon. It is easy to dis- * pose of this legislation by a point of order, but I trust he wiU not turn these Indians away by disposing of this with a point of order and then leaving nothing proposed to take care of the situation for them. Senator Lane. I am trying ver}^ hard to get a repeal of the act of 1907 and also Senator Walsh. I will say to the Senator that apparently there is no opposition to that. Everybody seems to agree that that should be done, and this is a first-class opportunity to do it. Senator Lane. But incidentally it carries with it the ahenation of the Indians' lands, the most valuable part of their holdings, and then there is Senator Walsh. Will the Senator propose something that he thinks is better ? Senator Lane. I was going to state the condition as it presents itself to me. It is proposed to take this money and buy cattle with it and put these people into the business of raising cattle, and at the same time it seUs away from them every foot of their most valuable property, if they should want to go into the cattle business. Here is land which is or can be irrigated and upon which we have spent $800,000 already, and upon which they can raise alfalfa and the only place where they can place their cattle in the winter and make a suc- cess of that business, and it is proposed to locate them up in the hills, where their cattle, as was testified here, would freeze to death, and the cattle business under those circumstances will not pay. We are forcing them to go into a business that they have been in before and failed, and I would recommend that this land be leased for long terms at reasonable rentals and keep it for them as a heritage, upon which they can plaiit alfalfa, or the Government can plant alfalfa for them. But if we are going to put them in the cattle business, we have $300,000 in trust to purchase cattle and plant alfalfa and get them started right. If the land proves to be good agricultural land, which I think Senator Walsh says it is, they still have that resource to fall back upon. But once you take this land away from them and put them in the cattle-raising business without a chance to put up teed for those cattle, that means a loss every five or six years of their cattle. Senator Walsh. You have not overlooked the fact that the bill does not contemplate the sale of their 45,000 acres of land within this area that is under the irrigation project ? Senator Lane. No; I would not sell a foot of it. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 529 Senator Walsh. Just a minute. Do you understand this bill do€s not conteniplate it ? Senator Lane. That is right — no, it does not, I suppose, contem- plate that. We have had testimony before us that the reservation will not carry more than say 30,000 head of cattle for 3,000 Indians if it is stocked to its limit; so the cattle business evidently will not pay. Their salvation must be worked out in some other manner. I am also informed by one of the Indians that the Blackfeet them- selves, if this were put to a vote, will not consent to it; that they do not want this done, and the Blackfeet Indians who talked here yes- terday say that it is to them a second choice; if they can be stocked with cattle and still retain these lands, and allowed to plant it in alfalfa, they would much prefer to do it. With them it is a bird in the hand rather than one in the bush. I think it is a mistake if they do consent to this, but I do not think one of them will consent if it is put to a vote. Senator Walsh. What will the Senator propose ? Senator Lane. I propose that this Government go on and take $300,000 and use it for the benefit of these Indians, giving them an opportunity to raise cattle and see how they^ make out, helping them and holding the property intact for them just as long as they can do so, instead of throwing it open and selUng out the very heart — the very kernel, and the meat of it — the only available asset they have, and putting them into the hills, in the pine timber, a good part of it among the pine, hemlock, and the tamarack td wrestle for food for their cattle m the winter — I have been up in that country off and on for over 20 years. Senator Gronna. I was going to ask if I understood you correctly that it was the desire of the Indians to sell at least a portion of this reservation ? , -n • i i i. Senator Walsh. Yes, sir. The present bill provides— the act passed in 1907— for the opening of the entire reservation. Allot- ments have been made under the provisions of that act. Everythmg is ready now to carry out the provisions of the act which conteni- plates opening the balance to settlement. The Indians now, it is asserted, do not want the reservation opened as a whole. Senator Gron]s;a. Only this portion of it. ^ Senator Walsh. They suggest openmg about one-sixth or one- seventh of the entire reservation, keepmg the other hve-sixtiis, or six-sevenths, as the case may be, and that the moneys realized Irom the sale of that part be used in the purchase of cattle for the Indians and distributed among the Indians. ,•. ^ ^n i . v -u Senator Lane. It is due to the Senator to say that the land which they have sold— which is proposed here to be sold— is agricultural land, some of which is u-rigable, and the better land, and the other is hill and timber land, with the exception of a few creek bottoms and vaUeys up m the mountains, 4,500 to 5,000 feet m elevation, and a good deal of it gets down to 40° below zero m the wmter . Senator Townsend. May I suggest to the Senator from Montana that inasmuch as this has got to be a subject evidently of ^dependent legislation (if he wants to go on still with his argument before the committee, if the Senator from Oregon objects to it, it is clearly subject to k point of order, and even if the committee should put it m it would go out) I am sure the committee has no disposition to 530 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. refuse to hear any bill which the Senator might introduce on this subject and to consider it, but this is merely delaying Senator Walsh. I do not desire to delay the consideration of this appropriation measure if, as a matter of fact, it will go out on a point of order. At some other day I trust I may have an opportunity to be heard on the matter before you. The Chairman. And bring it out as a separate bill? That will be perfectly agreeable to the committee. St nator Walsh. Yes, sir. The Chairman. We were on the item No. 120, on page 42 of the bill. Senator Townsend. I desire to offer this amendment to the House? provision, on lines 10 and 11, on page 42 of the comparison: Strike out the words '^ President, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate" and insert ''Secretary of the Interior, from the classified service," so that it will read: ''Provided, That the offices of the Com- missioner to the Five Civilized Tribes and superintendent of Union Agency, in Oklahoma, be, and the same are hereby, abolished, and in lieu thereof there shall be appointed by the Secretary of the Interior from the classified service a superintendent," etc. Senator Robinson. Question! Senator Lane. I wish to say that I am perfectly cognizant of the fact that the civil-service system is a better method of managing governmental affairs than the spoils system. Yet it has its weakness. It is especially weak when we come to selecting execu- tive officers, for there is no way of ascertaining a man's executive ability. Under the rules of the Civil Service Department as it is carried on under the regulations of the commission, Napoleon Bonaparte could not get a job as a policeman, and JuUus Caesar would be refused admission on the ground that he was an epileptic. But you can select imbeciles, who will measure up to the standard of physical fitness, with the agility of a monkey but the brains of a man whose head is bone all the way through, and pass him all the way down and get him into the civil service, and after you have done so you can never get rid of him. That is the objection to it. The law ought to be changed, allowing executive officers — forcing them to take employees from the classified civil-service fist, but giving him the power to dismiss them without appeal so long as it is not done for poHtical or refigious reasons. Under the present system the service is fiUed with mudheads and sons of asses. If there is any way of getting inspectors who would be useful I would be glad to assist the commissioner in doing so. Like Senator Townsend, I am tender about having the civil service interfered with and returning to the spoils system, and in the Senate I have voted against my Democratic friends on this subject, and I will do it again. I think you ought to put in an additional amendment. Senator Townsend, stating that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs may be allowed the privilege of passing upon the fitness of these men, and of discharging them, so long as it is not done on account of poUtics or refigion. Senator Townsend. If I had the sHghtest doubt that this com- mission could get the right kind of men under the present rules, I would put anything in. I have no doubt about it at all. This com- mission and the Indian commission that has been appointed to in- vestigate the affairs of the Indians are willing to take up any of these (IJSIDIAN, APPROPRIATION BILL. 631 questions, but I do not want to open the door here to one man's '.performing the same duties that two men have been performing here- Ivtofore, and the reason for doing it is because one of them is not vnecessary, the duties having been reduced so much, and they are now winding it up. I am perfectly wilhng to get them on these grounds of economy. I want to uphold them in the efficiency of this service in every way I can. I have no other thing in mind, but I can not for my hfe conceive why this kind of a proposition was ever submitted to the Senate or to the House. It opens the door for suspicion which ought not to exist. I do not know why it was put in by the House. I do not think the commissioner advocated this; I do not understand that he did. But I repeat, I can not understand what the motive was back of it in putting that in, and for myself I beheve thoroughly that the commissioner or the Secretary of the Interior, with the aid and advice of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, can find the right man for this job under the rules. Senator Owen. What kind of an examination would you think would be judicious to apply to the civil ser^dce in getting men who would take the executive administration in a task of this kind ? ;~ Senator Townsend. The same examination that you have now. It has been the testimony of the gentlemen who have been here that as a rule their men are very efficient men ; they have some very effi- cient men. We asked this particular question of the commissioner, X if he had men in the service who could fill this job, and he said he did have. That is in the record. Now that is not picking out some par- ticular man, but he picks out men from the classified service that they can select for this particular purpose, and I shall feel it incumbent upon myself to protest against this, and to its passage through the , Senate, if we make this change, because I do not think it is called for, and I think it is an improper provision to put in the bill. That is the reason I make the amendment. Senator Kobinson. Question. The chairman put the question on the adoption of the amendment, ,,and Senators Owen and Robinson voted in the negative. {, Senator Robinson. I caU for the yeas and nays. (The yeas and nays were taken, and the result was announced: Yeas, Senators Clapp, Page, Gronna, and Townsend; nays, , Senators Ashurst, Lane, Robinson, Thompson, and Owens— yeas, 4; nays, 5. So the amendment, was not agreed to.) . . -^ Senator Robinson. Now, right on that hne I want to submit an amendment affecting the inspection service m the Indian Bureau. ., i do not care to go into the matter in detail. i . ^i. • Commissioner Sells. Mr. Chanman, you have not disposed of this Senator Owen. I move that the item as amended be adopted. The Chairman. The question is on the adoption of the item as '^^'-fliinended • ' : .Senator Clapp. What is the amendment now? _.u:^^ u n Senator Owen. There was an amendment m hne 6, malnng it effective July 1, 1914. . . . Senator Clapp. I think that ought to remain m . ,. -^ .Commis^^^ Sells. What is tL amount provided for in the item as it now stands ? 39746— PT 2— 14 532 INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. The Chairman. $150,000. ' i. , Commissioner Sells. I hardly think it is safe to undertake the work after consolidation with less than $200,000. We may next year be able to reduce it below that, even; but I would not feel it was safe to undertake it now. Senator Robinson. That would be a saving of $25,000 from last Commissioner Sells. Yes; I feel hopeful that we can do it for less than that. Senator Gronna. It i- a saving of $50,000. Senator Robinson. Yes; it will save $50,000 instead of $25,000. Senator Gronna. In order to bring it before the committee, I mo¥e that we allow $200,000. The motion was agreed to. The Chairman. The question is on agreeing to the item as amended. Senator Page. I would like to have a roll call on that. This is a motion to adopt the proviso beginning on line 6, page 42, of the bill, as amended, after the word ''provided," in line 6, adding the words : ''effective July 1, 1914." . , • The Chairman. Commencing on line 4 and ending on line 18 with the word "interior." Senator Gronna. The whole paragraph. Senator Page. I do not object to the first part of that paragraph. I would hke to place myself on record as opposing the proviso. Now, can we divide that question ? Senator Robinson. What is that proviso ? Senator Clapp. I am going to move to strike out all after the figures "$150,000" as amended. The Chairman. The question is on the amendment of the Senator from Minnesota. Senator Page. On that I call for the yeas and nays. Senator Robinson. That would leave the two offices now in existence. (The yeas and nays were taken and resulted : Yeas, Senators Clapp, Page, GroQoa, and Townsend; nays. Senators Ashurst, Lane, Robin- son, Thompson, and Owen — ^yeas 4, nays 5. So the amendment was not agreed to.) The Chairman. The question is on agreeing to the item as amended. Senator Robinson. That amendment was lost. The Chairman. Yes; but there is an amendment, pending to insert the words "effective July 1, 1914." (The question being put, Senator Page voted "no". The amendment was agreed to.) PAY OF special AGENTS. Senator Robinson. I want to- call the attention of the committee to an amendment which I propose to offer, and it is designed to give the Commissioner of Indian Affairs a free hand in the reorganization, and which would be an improvement in what I believe to be a some- what defective and somewhat efficient branch of the Indian Service. I want to offer the following amendment on page 10, at the end of line 22, adding the following proviso: That hereafter special agents and supervisors may be employed without reference to the civil-service laws. v^ rf' o' *" INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 533 m The character of work that a special agent and supervisor does is not, in my opinion, that character of work that should be embraced within the civil service. I recognize the fact that there is much work in all the departments of the Government that is properly embraced within the civil service, but a man may have an unlimited amount of education; he might stand the best examination; he might be a college graduate and stand a better examination than, any one else who might apply and yet be totally unfit to do the peculiar kind of work that a special agent or supervisor is required to do. I think to state that proposition is to argue it. As I said a while ago, in my judgment, from the investigation which I have had occasion to make and some of the others of us had occasion to make, I think the inspection service in the Indian Bureau ought to be reorganized. I am not attacking any man. I am not impeaching at this time the integrity of any man in the service. I am moved by what I simply and honestly beUeve to be a fundamental. If the conditions in the Indian Bureau which are objectionable and which the present Commissioner of Indian Affairs is required to grapple with and to work out to the satisfaction of the public and to the betterment of the Indian are ever to be solved, you can not even begin it until you give him the power to control the inspection service of the bureau. I am utterly unable to under- stand upon what theory of administration this class of officials were ever placed under the civil service. I have already said that in my judgment it is necessary to bring about reform in that bureau. I do not want to attack any man who is an inspector in that service, and yet I say to you that the condi- tions which exist on some of the reservations would not have con- tinued if the inspection service had been, to say the least, efficient, not to say honest. The only way that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs has of authentically knowing these conditions on the reserva- tions is from reports and information which is submitted to him by a superintendent and these inspectors and supervisors. It is there- fore of importance that the force should be selected by him with special reference to efficiency in the work which they are to do. The man who goes out to make an investigation on an Indian reservation may be ever so cultured and ever so refined, he may be at the very head of the civil service fist, and he may be everything that consti- tutes a gentleman, but totally unfitted to do the very important and fundamental work that is necessary, and that is to go out and cut to the bone and bring to the attention of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs conditions which are in fact existing and which would escape the notice or the investigation of a man who might be highly edu- cated but unfitted for the particular service to which an inspector or supervisor is subjected. , . . .i i Now, I am not unmindful of the statement that is frequently made by some that the civil service is sacred, but after all the civil service- Congress itself, and every other department of the Government— is designed for the pubhc benefit, and if in the nature of this work which is to be done as the civil-service requirements do not tend to the selection of men who are pecuharly fitted for it— if experience has shown that is the' case, then I submit to you that the man who is charged with responsibihty the responsibihty must m the end tall upon him Pubhc attention is centered upon the control and conduct V 534 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. of the Indian affaii-s; he is making a gallant battle, and I am willing to free his hands and let him say who the men are that should go out on the reservations and bring to him news of what is going on there^ and if you are going to tie his hands by civil-service regulations, and cramp him so that he is compelled to accept the service of men who are inefficient, then you will never get away from the conditions which ai'e now embarrassing the American Indian. Senator Page. Mi'. Chairman, during our hearings here for the past few weeks we have had occasion to ask the department, through Mr. Meritt, if he did not have a trained force of especially good men in his department — men so efficient that whenever he had a particular job that he wanted to attend to he could go among his efficient men and select men for the service without going outside of the department. Am I right in that. Mi*. Meritt ? Mr. ^Ieritt. I do not think you are right there. Senator. I do not ^ think I have ever before this or any other committee contended that ( we had an efficient inspection force. On the contrary, it is the weak- est branch cf our Indian Service. Senator Page. You have had in your department for 30 or 40 or 50 years a let cf young men who have been growing up and becoming experienced and presumably efficient in the service. Why do you thmk you can step cutside of men you have in your department and find a better class of men than you can find inside of your department ? Mr. Meritt. I will answer that question, Senator, by this state- ment: The men who have gradually worked themselves up to the places cf supervisors have entered the service, usually, at $900. They have had but little practical business experience in the commercial world. During all these years in which they have been chmbiag from $900 to the positic n of supervisor, at $2,000 or more, they have formed certain friendships and certain alliances in the service. Those men are net usually competent to go en the reservati ns and report the true conditions, because if they did so report it might affect one man here or another man there who had in the past been their friends in gradually building themselves up in the service. What we need in the Indian Service, in our inspection force, are strong men who have had actual business experience in the com- mercial world; who have a detective instinct and who can go on^the reservations and get facts and who have no c connection whatever with the employees of that reservation, so that the real facts and condi- tions can be reported to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and so that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs can have the true situation on any particular reservation. Senator Page. Now I get that point there, and I have been through Indian reservations enough to know that there is a good deal v of reason for saying that you have inefficient men in certain quarters^ and, of course, they have acquaintances. Is there any objection to taking a man, for instance, in Wisconsin and transferring him to California to obviate that difficulty that you have just referred to? Mr. Meritt. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs right at this momefit is seriously embarrassed because he can not get competent men ia the service qualified to fill positions that are now vacant. Senator Page. That is because your salaries are so low that they do not attract first-class men in the service, is it not ? Mr. Meritt. That is one of the reasons. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 535 S^Tiator Page. Now, let me ask you another question. Do you believe that the full Federal service of the Interior Department, and all the departments as well as yours, should be run under the civil service or run under the old rules ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; I think the Indian Office and the Indian Service especially, should be run on a civil-service basis; but there are certain positions that should not be under the civil service. For example, these positions here involving inspecting officials that are covered by Senator Robinson's amendment, are not under the civil service in any other department; for example, the office of Secre- tary of the Interior Senator Robinson. Or in the Department of Justice itself. Mr. Meritt. The Department of Justice or almost any other department. Senator Page. I had an idea that you had in your service a class of men who were growing better and better each year, and that by knowing who those good men were, as shown by their record, that you could probably find good men to put in any ordinary branch of the service. So far as the Indian agent is concerned, it is a matter of some responsibility; it takes a pretty good man, and if you had to go outside and take a man at $1,200 a year, you could not get him for that sum, could you ? Mr. Meritt. No, sii*. Senator Page. If you provided in this appropriation bill for an in- crease in salaries sufficient to go outside, you could not get men who were in business and who were earning three or four thousand dollars a year ? Mr. Meritt. We would not be able to get men in the commercial world for $1,200 to fill our most responsible positions as superin- tendents, and the amendment here does not cover the positions of superintendents. It only covers the position of supervisors and spe^cial agents, men who do inspection work. Senator Robinson. How many of them are there in all? Mr. Meritt. Not to exceed fifteen. Senator Page. What salaries do they usually draw ? Mr. Meri'M'. They draw from $2,000 to $2,500. Senator Page. And they are provided for in this appropriation bm? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Page. And vou have efiEicient clerks in the service ? Mr. Meritt. This amendment will not relate to a single new position. ^ IP Senator Page. What do you do with those men drawing Irom $1,200 to $2,000? ^ . . , . ^ . Mr. Meritt. They will be transferred to other positions which they will be better equipped to fill. We have vacancies now that we are anxious to fill and some of those men can fill those positions. Senator Page. I do not see why that attack upon the cml service might not be made in almost any department in regard to certain officials of the department. . ..or ^ j? Senator Robinson. Will you pardon an interruption? In most of the. departments these ofi&cers who are referred to m^my amendnaent are. not under the civil service. I think they are perhaps in the Post Office Department, but I am not sure about that. In all the others 636 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BII.L. they are not. The object of this is to give the administration a free hand in this work, which you can not do in any other way. Senator Page. It is a pretty strong attack on the civil service prin- ciples that we are running on now. Senator Robinson. I do not concede that at all. STATEMENT OF HON. CATO SELLS, COMMISSIONER OF IN- DIAN AFFAIRS. Commissioner Sells. Mr. Chairman, just a word. I view with great reluctance anything that looks like an assault upon the civil service. My brief experience as Commissioner of Indian Affairs has persuaded me that the civil service is largely helpful, and on the whole, dependable. There are some features of it, however, which are grossly deficient in this, that we are not able to secure the men for a certain class of positions which conditions absolutelj^ demand, and the inevitable effect of it is, in this particular relationship, to give insufficient and unsatisfactory service. But, on the whole, it is to be commended. The Chairman. Do you favor this amendment? Commissioner Sells. Generally speaking I agree with Senator Robinson and my assistant, Mr. Meritt. I become somewhat gloomy at times when I comprehend the im- mensity of the undertaldng and lack of equipment by way of tools to perform it. The Indian Bureau has inherited a condition that I could scarcely describe. In fact I would not at this time want to analyze the conditions that are so apparent to me as to be almost appalling, not the least of which is the condition that my friend, the Senator from Arkansas, has suggested. We are pusliing our arms down deep into the reservations and the various ramifications of the Indian Bureau, and each time I reach down to find a thing that seems to me to be important I draw out half a dozen more that demand prompt consideration, and I find that in undertaking to work out the betterments that are incident to this condition I have not the tools to do it with. As has been "said here, on the whole, the Indian force is excellent. ^ Senator Page. How large is it? Commissioner Sells. Six thousand men and women handling $900,000,000 worth of property, with all of these great schools and industrial relationships that make it altogether the biggest business proposition in America; undertaking to direct the destinies of a race of people constituting more than 325,000 human beings, with all the ramifications of the life of other men, women, and children; their health, their education, their religion, and their material relationships, overshadowing in its magnitude and tremendous in its responsibility. I find in the Indian Bureau, gentlemen, a widespread health condition that is destroying the very life of the Indian race. Per- meating throughout the entire Indian world is the curse of the liquor traffic, and all around them those who are industriously reaching after their property. Fifty years are wellnigh gone of this accumulating condition, that has now developed an almost uniform ramification that demands immediate correction; an in- heritance that seems like a veritable mountain on our shoulders, INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 537 striving, with the help of God, these committees, and the faithful work of "men who are patriotically serving their country, illy paid, struggling to remedy it. I do not want to see an assault on the civil service. I believe in it. But, Mr. Chairman and Senators, I have no hesitation in saying to you that if we are to delve down into this condition and reform ifc successfully there ought to be in the Indian Bureau, as there is in the Department of Justice, in the Department of the Interior, in the Land Office, in the Pension Office, and in various other offices — there ought to be a few men who sustain a confidential relationship with the commissioner especially equipped for this work and on whom he can certainly depend to go out and bring back the goods, without fear or favor, owing obHgations to no man and to no party, punishing those who are guilty, let the chips fall where they may. In view of that condition, I reluctantly sa}^ to you that I approve of something like the amendment proposed by the Senator from Aikansas, and I ask of this committee that it continue the splendid cooperation that it has given up to this hour, for which I truty thank you. And let me say in return that everything you do that looks like greater equipment imposes upon me a responsibility which I will undertake to meet and respond to in the same spirit of the confidence extended by your committee. Senator Gronna. I want to say just a word. I am quite sure that our present commissioner is doing everything that is possible for any individual to do to right the abuses, but I want to call the committee's attention to one thing, and that is the inspectors employed in the Interior Department. I am spealdng from my own knowledge, and I am not guessing at it, either. If you could get a poorer set of in- spectors than there are in the Interior Department I would like to see them, and if they are not under civil service I am not going to take up the time of the committee nor put into the record what I know these men have done, but I say they are incompetent. T have proven to the Commissioner of the General Land Office and to the Secretary of the Interior that they are incompetent and whoUy unfit to do the business which they have been sent out to do. Commissioner Sells. Mr. Chairman, Senator Gronna, and gentle- men of the committee: There may be some force in the Senator's declaration and I want to say to you furthermore, gentlemen, that if you give opportunity^ for the selection of men who are not under the civil service, you 'impose a tremendous responsibiUty and one that I tremble to approach, because I know the weakness of human nature, and I know the tendency to seek patronage. I understand all that and I tremble at the suggestion, but I am appaUed at the condition that I am now confronted with; wliich is the lesser ot the two evils you must determine, but to give me more help; strengthen m^ right arm; make it possible for me to lift this burden. I naust have support. It is a tremendous responsibihty. Give me the best equipment of patriotism and the earnest cooperation that wU insure the results and I will do my share. i. <:tinaan Senator Lane. You have one employee now to each $15,UUU worth of property that the Indians own. 1 ou have 6,000 employees to $900 000 000 of property. That is one barnacle upon each $15,000. T^afis: thS^^ not^ all barnacles, but some are. You are over- stocked' with employees. 538 INDIAN APPKOPIMATION BIL.D. " Senator Clapp. I want to say one word with regard to the pending ^ amendment. There is, no doubt, in "this office and other offices placed where, if we could be always certain of the right man to administer' the office^ there would be a gain in relieving certain positions from the civil service, but with the wrong man in the office, to the extent that we modify the civil-service law of course we throw open the door to the evil that the civil-service law is expected to correct. We have got to deal wdth these not with reference to the man of to-day but as a principle. Now, I think that this matter should go to the Committee- on Retrenchment and Civil Service Reform. I think that sooner or later the committee has got undoubtedly to recognize that there are certain positions of a semiconfidential nature that perhaps should be^ relieved from the civil-service rules, but I do not believe in this com- mittee or any of the other committees, one by one, yielding to this modification of the rule. There probably is not a man in the service of this Government in a position, of large responsibility, correspond^' ing in rank approximately to the position of the commissioner, who would not feel that there ought to be certain positions in his bureau relieved, and if each committee, without any coordination through a general committee, begins this work there will be no end to it. I shall vote against the amendment. I tliink it would be probably a wise thing if the men in charge of the different bureaus and depart- ments would take up the subject with the proper committee and let there be the action of Congress as a whole, acting through a proper committee, recognizing that there are no doubt positions where the relation is of that confidential nature that it ought to be freed from the restrictions of civil service. But just as surely as one committee begins it another committee will take it up, and the first thing we knqw we shall have the foundation largely dug out from under the civil service. Now, the civil service was established with the full recognition that there was a broad question that undoubtedly the right man at every time could get service that would be superior to the average of the services obtained through an ironclad system like the civil service, but there was the condition, ' the spoils condition, and it was to meet that that the civil service was adopted, and 1 think that when it was taken up it should be taken up by the proper committee so that the entire Congi'ess and all the committees would' know just what requests were being made and what requests were being complied with. Commissioner Sells. I have no definite thought as to just how it ought to be worked out, Senator. I think the nxore dehberately- and more carefully, the better, but it ought to be worked out. Senator Clapp. I have no doubt there ought to be certain modi- fications made. Senator Page. If you could employ a dozen or 20 men as your private helpers at a salary of 12,500, say 10 men, would that be sufficient to enable you to get supervisors — 10 men or 15 or 20 men'^ Commissioner Sells. I did not Catch the first part of your question. Senator Page. Without changing the law any, if you could have given you as your confidential advisers men — 5, or 10, or 15 — that had a salary of $2,000 or $2,500, would that cover all these arguments? Commissioner Sells. You mean for inspection work or super- vision work ? INDIAN APPROlBiaiiSiriON BILL. 539 Senator Page. Just for any work, to be put where you needed them. Commissioner Sells. That is, you are asking me a question that perhaps covers more ground than you meant to do. This salary of $2,000 is not enough; $2,500 is none too much for that type of men. Ten men. Senator, for the work of what we call our field inspectors could do the work at $2,500 each, I think, in addition to what we have. But your question embraces a Uttle more than that, and ?erhaps I ought to be a little more frank with you along that hue. am right now in this attitude: There is no trouble about getting rid of men; they are falling out every day. The trouble I am having, gentlemen, is to get men that are big enough for the jobs. It has been said here to-day — and it is truthful, too, Senator Page — that men have gone up from $900 positions as clerks to the biggest reservations as superintendents. And, Senator Clapp knows better than I do that in many instances — although there are splendid excep- tions — their experience is purely clerical. They have had no contact with the business ramifications of life. They are not rounded out. They have no harmonious idea or experience or ability to handle successfully the great reservations with which they are associated. They may have been splendid clerks; they may be never so honest, as has been said by Senator Robinson ; they may read Latin beauti- fully; they may understand trigonometry; but they could not get a wagon out of a mudhole. They can not, by virtue of their experience and the experience of humankind — they can not go out among the Indians and tell them how to prepare the soil; how to sow and how to reap. They can Dot tell them how to handle their herds. They are as ignorant as a new-born child, many times, about these essential things. I am just now about to send out a circular letter in which I saj-^ I know you want me to talk to you as frankly as I would think my own thoughts — that the average farmer, so-called, on the Indian reservations devotes 75 per cent of his time to administrative duties and 25 per cent to his proper duties as a farmer. They have been ap- pointed. Senators, originally to develop the idea of self-help, and to make the Indian in fact a farmer so that he may eventually become self-supporting. It has as a whole been a travesty. It is a reflection upon the Indian Bureau; upon the department; upon the Govern- ment; because either of inefficiency or misdirected efforts — and what I say in that particular I must go a httle further, and I do not mean it for any specific reflection— that the average superintendent devotes almost his entire time to his office duties, and does not even know his Indians. He ought to spend a large part of his time outside of his office, permitting and requiring of his office help that they do the clerical work, and that he go out onto the farms and into the homes to see those who are sick and who need help ; coming into personal contact by an everyday association, that he may give them the suggestions of a riper experience and greater wisdom, and thus lead them into industrial betterments, prosperity, happiness, and to equipment for citizenship. Gentlemen of the committee, I hesitate to sa>^ to you, and i know you win understand and believe that I say it solemnlv, and I do not say it to either side of this table, either, because I am one of those who believe that there is equal patriotism here, and that you are all 540 INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. Lonestly and patriotically undertaking to solve this great humani- tarian problem — I say that the Indian Bureau has nmch of incom- petenc}^ and misdirected efforts, and that in many instances in the field, and sometimes in the bureau here in Washington, they are not accomplishing the purposes for which they were appointed. Alto- gether, however, the Indian Bureau has a splendid force of employees. I did not expect to talk to you this way to-day. I did not come here to talk ; I came here to listen to these matters as they are being presented. But I am overflowing with knowledge of this condition. With all due respect to those in their proper sphere, they can not perform successfully the more than a man's job that many of them are undertaking. And in answer to the Senator's question, which ♦ called this out, I want to say to you that we have right now half a dozen great big sup erin tendencies where there are several millions of dollars to be handled, and thousands of Indians who are longindy looking for help from ever}^ point of view who are not getting it. We need more big men for superintendents; we need bigger salaries in many instances, and I want the help, by civil service or otherwise, I do not care, but I want it. I must have it, and if you will give it to me — if 3^ou will give me the opportunity — if it requires 16 hours out of the day and 365 days in the year to do it, I will undertake to deliver the goods. And while the men the Senator suggests would be wonderfully helpful, with little better salaries, if I can only be free to name a few inspectors that I know have the equipment, with the civil service or without it, Senators, I am not sure which way I can do it best — but I must have the men. Then, I need more men at the head of som.e of these big agencies to handle the responsibiU- ties that are greater than some of them have the equipment to suc- cessfully manage. I wish it to be understood that I am a firm friend of civil service and desire to sustain it in every way possible. The Chairman. The question is on the adoption of the amendment. Senator Fall. I want to say, it is not very popular, I suppose, for a man to express himself fuUy on the civil service. I am not going to express myself fuUy. If I did I might not be persona grata to some people. I think there is a whole lot of rot about this civil service business myself. I think that instead of it working out advantageously, as it should, that it has served to build up a bureau- cracy of incompetency in very many instances, and if there is any- thing that can change it or check it or broaden it or help it I am going to vote for it, and if we have to go on the outside, as I think would be a very good pohcy, outside of the civil service, to get people who would not go into the civil service, but might accept positions, I am ready to go outside of the civil service and give them to them. I think you will find a whole lot more competent men out of the civil service, if you give them good salaries, than you mil ever find in it of any worth. I am going to vote for the amendment. Senator Townsend. There is not any use of saying anything further about it. I agree with all that has been said about the con- dition of the bureau, especially in reference to the inspection service. That is not due to the civil service, though. It is not a little bit due to the civil service. We have had inspectors sent out and reports made on them, and then they have been rewarded or treated in the department by being transferred to some other place when they INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. 541 ought to have been put out of the department; ought not to have stayed there a minute. That has not been the fault of the civil service. A great many of them are covered into the civil service by Executive order. That was wrong, in my judgment. I believe you are going to embarrass your commissioner by now opening the doors here and making him subject to the pohtical influences that will be brought to bear upon him. I think he has got burdens enough. I think this thing is wrong and can be corrected within the department. I have never understood that the Civil Service Commission was passing general examinations for all peoples in all kinds of service, but that they prepared certain questions and certain examinations for special men. The work should be with the Civil Service Commission, if they are making the wrong kind of examination, to get the men. I want to do everything we can to strengthen the service. I have voted for everything that I thought was essential and was asked for by the commissioner in the way of appropriations. I do not want to limit the commissioner at all; I do not want to harass him or hamper him either by this kind of provision. I certainly do not believe that the conditions are worse under the civil service than they were under the spoils system, I beheve they are very much better, and that they will continue to be better under that service. Our work should be to reform the service, if that is wrong, rather than to destroy it. Senator Gronna. Just one word. The Chairman. Senator Gronna. Senator Gronna. Mr. Chairman, I shall be compelled to vote against this amendment, although I do not wish to do anything that will tie the hands of the commissioner. I know he is honest and I believe he is competent and efficient, but I hardly think this is the way to reach the difficulty. If we do not have the men to do the business now there is another way of getting these men. I, for one,. am opposed to going back to what Senator Townsend has termed the old spoils system, because I know, as a matter of fact, that if the men referred to here this afternoon, who were employed in the Interior Department, I mean the inspectors, at least some of them, those whom I come in contact with, they are not efficient, they are not any more efficient than these men who have been taken from the reserve list. I believe it is a mistake, Senators, to make a raid upon the civil service either in this bill or in any other bill. I am willing at any time to vote for any number of men that Commissioner Sells tells us he should like to employ, outside of the civil service, and I am willing to vote them a salary of any amount that he thinks is reason- able, but I can not on this appropriation bill vote for this amendment. Senator Lane. I want to say that I believe in civil service, and if I vote for this amendment it will be the only time I ever expect to do it. I do net believe in indirect raids or flank attacks upon it. It seems to me that here is a special set of officers who are needed to meet a condition of great emergency, for there is an enormous loss being sustained, and in order to give the commissioner a chance to clear up what in my opinion is a vast tangle, I am going to vote tor the amendment, and on that ground alone. After this I propose to stick to the civil service as being better, as a rule, than the spoU^ system Yet I think the civil-service laws must be changed, and that it is the duty of the Congress to do it. They are not elastic 542 INDIA.N APPEOPEIATION BILL.. enough, and under the present system it is impossible, under the examinations, to ascertain the qualifications of a person for special work, which can only be proven by experience, and that it should be left in the hands of the executive officer to replace his assistants at any time that they prove incompetent. Senator Fall. I do not want to be understood as making a general assault upon the civil service, but I am a Senator in the United States Senate, and I do not propose to have my vote or to have my hands tied in any instance by the civil service or without. I am going to vote what I think best for the civil service or for the Interior Department, or any other department, without any reference to the civil service, and if the civil-service laws stand in the way of » what I think is best, I will vote to get them out of the way. The Chairman. Those in favor of the amendment say aye. Those opposed, no. The ayes appear to have it; unless a roll call is asked for the ayes^ will be declared to have it. The aye^ have it, and the amendment is adopted. (The amendment was agreed to.) FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. The Chairman. The next item is No. 20, on page 42 of the com- parison: ''For salaries and expenses of such attorneys and other em- ployees as the Secretary of the Interior may, in his discretion, deem necessary in connection with probate matters affecting individual allottees in the Five Civilized Tribes, $50,000." The justification is on page 587 of the hearings. The estimate was for 150,000. The House has approved it at S85,000. Senator Owen. I move the adoption of the House provision. Senator Thompson. Why was it increased for that item? Senator Owen. Because in eastern Oklahoma the lands have been allotted to minors hke others, and because of that and because there lias been some disposition on the part of those who are unscrupulous to take advantage of these children and their estates it has been thought necessary to provide probate attorneys who would look^after the children and protect them. Senator Thompson. I understand that, Senator Owen, but if I understand it correctly $50,000 was estimated for. What I am anxious to know is why $35,000 more is requh-ed than the depart- ment thought necessary. Mr. Meritt. We submitted our estimate for $50,000. After the estimates were submitted to the department in October, Commis-r^ sioner Sells paid a visit to Oklahoma, and he found conditions there such as would necessitate a very much larger appropriation than asked for, in order to clear up the probate situation in eastern Ok- lahoma. Senator Thompson. So that if the estimates were revised you would ask that appropriation, do I understand you correctly ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; Commissioner SeUs visited Oklahoma and reorganized the probate work of that State. The matter is set out Tery fully in House Document No, 768, Sixty-third Congress, secotid session. A" ..HBTDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 543 •J The Chairman. It is agreed to in the absence of objection. (The item was agreed to.) ^ -Senator C WEN. May I call your attention to one or two items ! under the head of Oklahoma while we are on this part of the bill ? **. The Chairman. Certainly; what particular page ? Senator Cwen. Cn page 44. I have a letter from the attorney -^representing the Cherokees, Mr. W. W. Hastings, in which he sug- ■tvgests — and I have not consulted the Commissioner of Indian Affairs .i^about this and would Hke to have his attention to it^ — in which Mr. Hastings suggests the following amendment: Provided, That any unexpended funds heretofore appropriated for this school for the fiscal year nineteen hundred and fourteen may be used during said year for the • hpurchase of additional land, not to exceed eighty acres, repairs and improvements. Senator Page. Where will that amendment come in ? Senator Cwen. ( n page 44, at the top of the page in large prints $42,000 was appropriated for the orphan children and Indian school. *"Mr. Hastings suggests that the unexpended balance of last year's appropriation be used to buy land there. They have no agricul- tural land, practically, with the school, just 40 acres on top of a hill Senator Page. What are the unexpended balances just now ? Senator Owen. I do not know what they are. ]Mr. Meritt. Last year was the first year there was an item in ^the bill for this particular school, and we would not be able to state until the 1st of July the unexpended balance. Senator Owen. About what do you think it will be? Mr. Meritt. I think it will be sufficient to buy the land. ^' Senator Page. What would be the expenditure for that land? Senator Owen. It will cost about $20 to $25 an acre, I think. Mr. Meritt. The office would have no objection to the amend- ment suggested by Senator Owen. Senator Page. As I understand it, you want to buy how many ./acres, 80 acres ? iSenator Owen. Eighty acres. Senator Page. Eighty acres at $25. Senator Owen. I am just guessing at that. I do not think it would be worth more than that. Senator Page. That is for a playground for your school ? Senator Owen. For farming purposes, to raise vegetables and things of that sort. The. proviso I suggest would be inserted after Une 5— insert the proviso that — Provided, That any unexpended funds heretofore appropriated for this school for the fiscal year nineteen hundred and fourteen may be used dunng said year for the . purchase of additional land, uot to exceed eighty acres, repaurs and improvements. , The Chairman. The commissioner - has no opposition. You ap- ^^ prove that, do you? ..Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. . The CBtAiRMAN. In the absence of objection it will be approved. The amendment was agreed to. ^^ i .- ,, .Senator Owen. Would you permit me to present a matter relating to the Creek equalization fund?- The Chairman. We shall be glad to have you do so ; the committee wo.uld be glad, I am sure. 544 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. Senator Owen. I move, Mr. Chairman, on page 46 of the printed bill; to insert the words, after line 12, as follows: The Secretary of the Interior ia directed to pay out of the Creek Nation, out of the funds of the Creek Nation, the amounts severally due for the equalization of their allotments, and in making such payment for the equalization of the Creek allot- ments 1900 shall be taken as the standard value of an allotment. The Chairman. Before we pass away from this other item, there seems to be some question whether that was approved at $116,000 or $125,000. The department insists that its estimate is required. That is on page 10 of the printed bill, for pay of special agents, etc. What is the sense of the committee ? Senator Thompson. Did we not pass on it at $125,000? • The Chairman. The clerk's record shows it was approved by the House at $116,450. Maybe we had better further consider that. Mr. Meritt. We should hke very much to have the amount esti- mated. The Chairman. It will be considered, in the absence of any objec- tion, to be approved at $125,000. (The item was agreed to.) The Chairman. Now, Senator Owen. Senator Owen. On page 46 of the printed bill I move to insert the Creek equalization items from $800 up to $900. I do not know whether the committee is sufficiently acquahited with that equalization matter or not. If not, I should like to explain it. Senator Page. I should like to hear it when I come back. Senator Owen. Then I will wait until the Senator returns. The Chairman. Pending the return of Senator Page, may I ask you to consider for a moment a communication the committee received this morning from the Secretary of the Interior. It is a somewhat lengthy letter, and I do not know that I shall read it all, but I will read the proposed amendment. For the salaries and expenses of not to exceed six oil and ^as inspectors, under the the direction of the Secretary of the Interior, to supervise oil and gas mining opera- tions on allotted lands leased by members of the Five Civilized 'fiibes from which restrictions have not been removed, and to conduct investigations with a view to the prevention of waste, |25,000, to be immediately available. Senator Fall. Is that to be under the Secretary of the Interior directly ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Fall. And it is on Indian lands ^ Commissioner Sells. If it is the pleasure of the committee, I might make a brief statement concerning that item. The Chairman. Yes. Commissioner Sells. Under the rules and regulations promulgated by the Department of the Interior therer are certain provisions made for the conservation of gas throughout the Indian territory in Oklahoma, and it is a lamentable fact that for an indefinite period heretofore there has been practically no attention paid to those regulations, and gas has been permitted to escape wantonly to such an extent that it has been a gross waste, and practically no conserva- tion. Kecently heretofore that matter was called to my attention when a lease came before me for cancellation under the provisions of the regulations, and I took it upon myself to rather stringently penalize the violator by imposirg a $1,000 fii)e upon the Silurian Oil Co. for permitting this waste, and I told them if they returned again INDIAN APPKOPBIATION BILL. 545 their lease would be canceled and the peimlty doubled. It has had a very salutary influence. But the facts are, gentlemen, that waste is as wide as the oil territory of Oklahoma, and it is extravagant waste; it is wanton waste; and there is a universal demand for its conserva- tion, not only by those who financially bei]efit by it, but by the public that they may consume it, and there seems to be no other remedy than the imposition upon those who permitted this waste of penalties, that we require of them that they resort to certain im- proved methods to cor serve this gas. In order to inspect properly ^ and see that this remedy is complied with it will require somethirg like the provisiors provided for here, ai d after havirg gone over the matter carefully with Director Holmes we have worked out this agreement, ard this letter is in resporse to that understanding, asking for this appropriation that we may employ these experts to cor serve this gas. I think it ought to be done. The Chairman. Is there any objection to the amendment which has been proposed by the department ? Senator Fall. How are these people to be employed ? How is this money to be paid, by the Secretary of the Interior and paid out of the pubhc funds for safeguarding the gas and oil wells of the Indians of the Five Civihzed Tribes ? Senator Owen. Restricted funds. Senator Fall. I know; but they have large funds on hand, which funds are being constantly added to by the output. Commissioner Sells. They are not the sole beneficiaries. It would seem to be an imposition to require the Indians to pay for what the pubhc is largely the beneficiary of. Senator Fall. What I want to know is, how is the pubhc bene- fited ? Commissioner Sells. The opportunity for the use of gas, which is now denied them because of the gross waste. Kansas City, for example, is crpng for the transmission of gas through pipe fines that have been laid, and are unable to obtain it, and that same con- dition obtains throughout that entire country. Senator Fall., If Kansas City gets the gas the Indians get the price, do they not ? Commissioner Sells. Sm-ely, but the conservation will be far beyond the immediate consumption. Senator, running into the future. The Chairman. I should hke to ask the committee to permit the letter of the Secretary to go in the record on that subject. That is the only argument I have, except the statement of the honorable , commissioner. > Department of the Interior, Washington, April 7, 1914. Hon. Henry F. Ashurst, r ■ . a o . Chairman Committee on Indian Affairs, United btates benate. My Dear Senator: I am much concerned about the extensive and unnecessary waste of natural gas and the loss in the value of the oil pr9duction from the inflow of underground water on the Indian lands and adjacent private lands m the SUte of Oklahoma and I am writing to ask attention to these problems m conection with your consideration of the Indian appropriation bill now before your committee This department has had three men investigating these subjects durmg the past vear, and their investigations have brought out the foUowmg facts: ,, t ^ • (V\ That there is a constant and unnecessary waste of natural gas from the Indian lands and adiacent private land in the State of Oklahoma, which during the year 1913 is estimated to have reached not less than 200,000,000,000 cubic feet of gas. 546 LNDIAN APPBOPRIATION BILL. f That with the average price of natural gas to the consumer in Oklahoma during 1912 about 7.6 cents per 1,000 cubic feet, this means an economic loss to the people of that State during this one year equivalent to not less than $16,000,000, according.to reports by the Bureau of Mines. It is estimated that at least 30 per cent of this waste occurred on restricted Indian lands. (2) That in addition to the waste of natural gas, the oil resources on Indian lands in Oklahoma are being seriously damaged through the inflow of underground water from oil wells penetrating the oil-bearing strata, and which water is not being properly im- prisoned within its own strata, and is being allowed to penetrate the oil-bearing strata, and to reduce the value of the oil, not only by driving the oil back from the wells, tut is further mixing with the oil, so that in the case of pumping wells an increasingly large quantity of water must be brought to the surface in order that the oil may be secured. This situation as to both oil and gas in Oklahoma not only involves this loss to the Indians but it is discreditable to our national intelligence. » The Indian Office of the department as now organized has no adequate inspection force with which it can prevent this embarrassing and wasteful situation. To ade- quately meet this situation in such manner as will both protect the interests of the - Indian landowners and also save for the use of the people of Oklahoma these invaluable oil and gas resources, it will require an inspection force of six men, whose combined salaries and expenses will not exceed $25,000 per annum, to bring about this saving of more than one-quarter of a million dollars for the members of the Five Civilized Tribes. The present waste of gas is so inexcusable and is such a serious detriment to the inter- ests of the tribes, as well as to the people of the State of Oklahoma, that I can not too strongly urge that your committee make provision for such an inspection force in the pending Indian appropriation bill. I am attaching herewith a draft of amendment which will accomplish this purpose. I beheve that an adeqauete inspection force, organized under these provisions, will mean a net saving to the Indians of the Five Civilized Tribes for some years to come of not less than $200,000 per annum, and I believe the good results to come from such an inspection will be of far greater service to the people of Oklahoma and to the country at large, in connection with the practical conservation for present day use of the oil and gas resources of that State; Cordially, yours. Franklin K. Lane. Senator Clapp. Mr. Meritt, is this thing so related to any particular class of Indims th^re that it could come out of their funds and the benefit oo only to those out of whose funds it came ? Mr. Meritt. We considered that, Senator, but we came to the con- clusion that it would be impracticable to make. this a reimbursable item. Senator Clapp. I suppose so. That was to cover Senator Fall's inquiry. The Chairman. This amendment will be adopted, in the absence of any objection. (The amendment was aoTeed to.) Senator Page. I move that the committee adjourn until to-morrow at 2 o'clock p. m. (The motion was agreed to, and at 4.15 o'clock p. m. the committee adjourned until to-morrow, April 9, 1914, at 2 o'clock p. m.) THURSDAY APRIL 9, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Ashurst (chairman), Lane, Thompson^ Owen^ Clapp, Page, Gronna, and Townsend; also, Hon. E. B. Meritt, Assistant Commissioner, Indian Bureau. The Chairman. The committee will come to arder. Mr. Commis- sioner, have you any items that you wish to present to the committee % INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 547 FORT YUMA INDIAN SCHOOL. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, we have a few small items that we would like to submit. We would like to have incorporated under the head of ''Arizona and New Mexico,'' on page 20 of the bill, after line 17 and before the heading ''California," the following: The Secrete,ry of the Interior is hereby authorized to set aside and reserve as a school farm for the Fort Yuma Indian School the west half of the northwest quarter and the west half of the southwest quarter of section twenty-four, township sixteen south rant^e thirty-two east, S. B. M. ' & Senator Lane. Is it Fort Yuma., Cal., or Fort Yuma, Ariz.? Mr. Meritt. Part of the school land is in California and part is in Arizona. Senator Lane. Fort Yuma is in Arizona, is it not ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. I do not quite understand it. Mr. Meritt. Part of the reservation is in California and part is in Arizona. We will eliminate the word "California," so that there will be no question about it. The Chairman. Is that public land at this time ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; it is Indian land, but there is an existing law requinng that the surplus land be thrown open to settlement. This land has been set aside temporarily for school farm purposes, and we would like to have that land permanently reserved for that purpose. (The amendment was agreed to.) FURNITURE AT THE ARMSTRONG ACADEMY, OKLAHOMA. Mr. Meritt. We would like to have a small item inserted before the heading "Five Civilized Tribes" on page 42, as follows: For the purchase of certain articles of fiu*niture originally bought from personal funds by Mr. Gabe Parker while superintendent of the Armstrong Academy, Ohlahoma, and since used by that school, $286, to be paid for from the Choctaw funds. I have a justification here which explains this matter in detail, and I will read it for the information of the committee : There Ls attached a draft of an item for insertion in the Indian appropriation bill covering the purchase of certain articles of furniture from the Hon. Gabe Parker, present Register of the Treasury, for use at the Armstrong Academy at Academy, Okla., involving the sum of $286. Prior to his entrance on duty as Register of the Treasury, Mr, Parker was superin- tendent of this Indian school at Academy, Okla. , During his incumbency be pur- chased, for use in various parts of the school, certain articles of furniture which he paid for out of personal funds. The furnitm-e is still there. Mr, Parker's resignation as superintendent of the school took effect on Septem- ber 11, 1913, subsequent to which date and prior to October 1, 1913, when he entered on duty as Register of the Treasury, Mr. Parker offered for sale to the academy this furniture, which was needed there to conduct the school in the manner in which it had been handled, so far as equipment was concerned, during the period Mr. Parker was superintendent. This offer was accepted by the superintendent of the school and a request sent to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs for authority to make the pur- chase. Mr. Parker left with the understanding that the articles would be purchased, otherwise he states he would have at that time shipped them to his home in Wash- ington. D. C. It is to be understood that were these articles not purchased, others similar thereto would have to be bought for the school, and, therefore, on account of the quality and price of the furniture, it was cousidered by the Superintendent a good business move to take advantage of Mr. Parker's offer. A competitive bid from 39746— PT 2—14^ ^9 548 INDIAN APPBOPEIATION BILL. a local furniture dealer was secured and considered. Those prices ranged in all but a few of the items considerably higher than those quoted by Mr. Parker. It 80 happened, however, that the superintendent's request to purchase the fur- niture did not reach the Commissioner of Indian Affairs until after the time on which Mr. Parker entered on duty as Register of the Treasury and again became a Govern- ment employee. If this authority had been submitted to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and approved prior to October 1, the purchase would have been properly con- summated, but as this was not done it was believed that Mr. Parker again becoming a Government employee, the provisions in the act of June 22, 1874 (18 Stat. L., 146- 177), prevented his entering into an agreement to sell. The superintendent of the school, who accepted the bid in reality, had no authority to do that; and, furthermore, it is not understood that it was his intention to accept.it in the sense of attempting to bind the Government to purchase, because in transmitting the bid to the Com- missioner of Indian Affairs he definitely requested authority to make the purchase. The matter was presented to the Comptroller of the Treasury, who sustained the Com- . missioner of Indian Affairs in his opinion that the purchase from Mr. Parker subsequent to September 30, 1913, would be illegal. During this period — that is, since September 30, 1913, while the matter was under consideration — the furniture has been in use at the school, and it seems unfair to Mr. Parker now, and uneconomical for the Gov- ernment, to throw it back on his hands, particularly since new furniture will have to be bought for the school to replace it. Therefore, as the purchase could not be consummated in any other manner under existing law, it is desired that the draft submitted herewith be enacted into law, in order that Mr. Parker may be reimbursed for his furniture. Senator Clapp. I move the adoption of that amendment. (The motion was agreed to.) RELIEF OF THE WOMAN'S BOARD OF DOMESTIC MISSIONS, REFORMED CHURCH OF AMERICA. Mr. Meritt. We have another item that might well go in this bill. It was introduced in the House by Representative Ferris and has received the favorable recommendation of the department. It is a bill for the relief of the Women's Board of Domestic Missions, Re- formed Church, in America. The item is as follows : That the Secretary of the Treasury be, and he is hereby, authorized and directed to pay to the Woman's Board of Domestic Missions, Reformed Church, in America, the sum of $10,000, for mission and school buildings built by them on the Fort Sill Military Reserve, in Oklahoma, for the use of the Apache Indians, and rendered useless on account of the removal of said Indians to the Mescalero Indian Reservation, in New Mexico. The department submitted the following report in regard to this matter. This is a department letter, which is dated March 18, 1914 Senator Clapp. I do not think it is necessary to read that to the committee. I move that the item be allowed. Senator Lane. This is what church ? Mr. Meritt. It is the Woman's Board of Domestic Missions, Reformed Church in America. Senator Lane. The Reformed Church. What church is that ? Mr. Meritt. I could not give you any other definite information about it. Senator Lane. I did not know that they had any work among the Indians. Is there a sect called the Reformed Church — a particular organization ? Senator Clapp. It is the Reformed Church. Senator Lane. That is a Mormon Church, is it not ? Senator Clapp. No; it is an offshoot of Holland. INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. 549 Senator Lane. That is what I did not understand. The Chairman. The question before the committee is to include the item which the department has requested. Senator Lane. Senator Owen, this is a matter which affects your brothers in the church, and we want to get some information on it. Mr. Meritt. I might say that this church organization has been doing missionary work among the Fort Sill Indians for a number of years. They have constructed certain buildings there, and because of the fact that the Indians have been removed from the reservation those buildings are no longer of any use to this mission. This Fort Sill property has been turned over to the War Department. This church washes to reinvest the money derived from these mission build- ings for mission-work purnoses at Mescalero Reservation, N. Mex. Senator Lane. Do you know anything about it, Senator Owen ? . Senator Owen. Yes; I think it is the right thing to do. Mr. Meritt. It has been recommended by the Interior Department and also by the War Department. I have a letter here from Leonard Wood, Major General, Chief of Staff, recommending it. Senator Lane. I have no objection to it. Senator Owen. I move its insertion as an amendment. The Chairman. The Senator from Minnesota has also moved its adoption. (The amendment was agreed to.) DWIGHT MISSION SCHOOL, OKLAHOMA. Senator Owen. There is a Httle item of a similar character that I would Hke to call to the attention of the committee. It is a bill authorizing the sale of certain lands of the Dwight Mission School on Sallisa Creek, Okla. There are 26 acres of land set aside and which can not be conveyed to that school. It is a mission school; an act of Congress authorized it. It is a very old school. The Dwight Mis- sion was estabUshed there prior to 1830. My mother went there as a little child and got her first education in that Dwight Mission School. It is only permitting them to buy at the appraised value 26 acres, which will suffice for their purpose. The Chairman. The bill has passed the Senate. Senator Owen. Yes; I see that it has passed the Senate. I would be glad to have it put on here, because it probably would not be able to get through, as the House Calendar has so many bills on it, and it is an inconsequential matter, so simple that nobody would have sufficient concern about it to see that it was passed. The Chairman. And having passed the Senate, it would not be subject to a point of order. Senator Clapp. I do not think so; but I do not think anybody will raise the point of order. Senator Lane. How much is it ? Senator Clapp. It is not an appropriation. It is permitting them to buy this land as authorized by an earlier act, but in some way they failed to make the purchase within the required time. I move its adoption. The Chairman. Where shall it be inserted ? 550 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Owen. I should say at the bottom of page 42, after the figures "$85,000/' insert the following amendment: That the principal chief of the Cherokee Nation, with the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, is hereby authorized to convey to the Pwight Mission School, on Sal- hsaw Greek, Oklahoma, twenty-six acres of land heretofore set aside in accordance with the provisions of section twenty-four of the Cherokee agreement approved July first, nineteen hundred and two (Thirty-second Statutes at Large, pages seven hun- dred and sixteen and seven hundred and twenty), for the use of such school for mis- sionary and educational purposes, and now being occupied and used by the said D wight Mission School, and the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to accept in payment therefor $10 per acre. (The amendment was agreed to.) HARGROVE OR ARDMORE COLLEGE, OKLA. Mr. Meritt. Tne commissioner asked me to request that this item be incorporated in the bill: The Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to expend the sum of 116,500 from the Cherokee tribal funds for the purchase of the property known as Hargrove College, or Ardmore College, situated at Ardmore, Oklahoma, to be reserved and used as a boarding school for the Chickasaw Nation. I have the followi-:;g justifi ation for this item: Accompanying this is a proposed item authorizing the Secretary of the Interior to expend the sum of $16,500 of Chickasaw tribal funds for the purchase of the Hargrove College property at Ardmore, Okla, It is intended to continue at this place the tribal school heretofore known as Bloomfield Seminary. Bloomfield Seminary has been at Hendrix, situated upon a tract of land reserved for school purposes by act of July 1. 1902 (32 Stat. L., 641). -Recently the main building at Bloomfield was destroyed by fire. Insurance thereon will probably be collected to the amount of approxi- mately $15,000. The matter of the purchase of the Hargrove property, to be used in lieu of the old property, has been carefully investigated and is a very desirable proposition, both financially and for other reasons. The buildings are substantial and can be put in first-class condition by the expenditure of a small amount for plumbing and incidental repairs. If this purchase can be consummated, the Bloomfield property will be sold and the proceeds deposited to the credit of the tribes. It will cost the service at least $16,500 to replace the main building at Bloomfield if it be compelled to continue the school there. The Bloomfield buildings were recently destroyed by fire, as stated in the justification, and the commissioner would like to have this item incorporated in the bill. wSenator Owen. I move that the committee adopt the item. (The motion was agreed to.) creek EQUALIZATION FUND. Senator Owen. I want to bring up the question of the Creek equalization fund, on page 46 of the bill. I move the insertion, after line 12, of the fallowing item: The Secretary of the Interior is directed to pay the allottees of tlie Creek Nation out of the funds of the Creek Nation the amounts severally due for the equalization of their allotments, and in making such payment for the equalization of the Creek allotments, |800 shall be taken as a standard value of the allotments. In explanation of this matter I will say that when the agreement was made with the Creek Nation to allot their land, 10 or 12 years ago- 1902 — it V, as provided that each one should have in land or money $1,040. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 551 A good many of them took land which was worth $1,040, and therefore would have no funds coming to them. A good many of the full-blood Indians, not appreciating very much the value of the land, took land of less valuable appraisement expecting to get the money which they wanted to have; they preferred to have money to land, and in that I think they did not exercise good judgment, but at all events the officers of the United States gave to each of these Indians a certificate stating that there would be coming to them so much money, the difference between the appraised value of the land they had allotted to them and 11,040. The United States had an abundance of property at that time belonging to the Creeks to justify this value of $1,040, that is, an average allotment, but afterwards upon a resolution of the Creek Council, the Creek Council having remained as a sort of permissive executive committee or go- between between the United States and the Creek people, they passed a resolution asking the United States to allot to what we call the new-born children, that is, those children born subsequent to the date of the treaty and before a fixed date, March 4, 1906; and when that land was allotted to the new-born children under this resolution of the Creek Council it used up a portion of the property which would have furnished the money necessary to pay this difference up to $1,040 to those who received then* certificates. Afterwards the Creeks came in and asked that they should be paid in full the $1,040. They had about $3,000,000 in the Treasury. In order to pay them, however, the $1,040 in full it would have taken two or three million dollars more than the land would produce and therefore there was an obvious deficit of approximately $3,000,000, due to this action on the part of the United States in allotting this land to the new-born children which consumed the property which was intended by the original agreement of 1902 to be distributed among those who were enrolled as of that date. The United States passed a provision that the money should be paid to the Creeks up to the extent of $800, several years ago, but attached to that a provision that the Creek people should give complete receipt to the United States for any indebtedness due on account of those certificates. The Creek Coun- cil, under the influence of the individual who held those certificates, refused to give that acquittance and the act stood in that way and the persona holding those certificates have never been paid. There is no good reason, however, why the United States, without delay, should not pay the amount up to $800, because there is a fund on hand abundantly sufficient to meet that . Indeed, there is a larger fund on hand than is necessary, and since there is a possi- bihty of the newborn children being allowed also to receive an addi- tional sum up to $900, or $800 — or whatever is agreed upon as the new measure of allotment — there is proposed by the department to be reserved a portion of this fund until that question is ascertained in court. But at present $800, as a standard allotment, can be taken, and the amount paid on the certificate up to $800, distributing the fund in part which the Government has on hand, reserving enough to protect the rights of the newborn children, if they have any rights to additional payment, and there is no reason why that should not be done. / I have never thought that the United States ought to impose a condition of complete acquittance when the Government did not in 552 INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. reality pay the amount in full of those certificates. It is a question as to whether or not these Indians are not bound by the resolution of the Creek Council which requested the Government to allot these lands to the newborn children. If the Creek people are bound by the acts of the Creek Council^ then the United States would not be held under an indebtedness to the citizens holding these certificates. But whatever may be done with that controversy on the part of the holders of those certificates as to the amount not paid them above $800, I see no just reason why the Government should not distribute this fund to those who confessedly own it up to 1800, leaving that question of the controversy for subsequent disposition according to what may ultimately appear to be the right and justice of it. Senator Lane. Is there not a claim made that some of these In- dians — those securing this land — received land worth much more than $1,000, and much more than several thousand dollars, and the other Indians did not get any, or got very poor land ? Senator Owen. I think it is undoubtedly true that some of those who received allotments of 160 acres, upon a fair measure of value of the 160 acres would be worth much more than $1,040. It is also true, however, in that connection that those lands were appraised in accordance with the values which were supposed at that time to be reasonable values before they had increased because of an increasing population and before there was a discovery of oil and gas in that country. Those things have since, of course, very greatly affected the value. But even at that time the appraisal was regarded as merely for distributive purposes and was, I think, confessedly less in any case than the lands were really worth. But that question was adjusted by the United States itself in 1902 by putting this valuation upon it and by agreeing with the representatives of the Creek people as to this distribution, there being no allotment worth more than $1,040 under the appraisals of that date, but some of the land being worth a good deal less than $1,040. So there was this margin com- ing to those who selected land of less value. Senator Lane. Somebody made complaint — I do not know who it was — that some person down there, some Indian, had lost all of his land. He had worked on it and made a good farm, two or three of them, and now he is impoverished, and that this land had not been equitably distributed — quite the contrary — and that that was the reason why there is now this other claim. Mr. Bentley. There is one phase of the matter, Mr. Chairman, that I would like to be heard on. The Chairman. Mr. Bentley desires to be heard. He can only be heard by request of some Senator. Senator Lane. I request that Mr. Bentley be heard. The Chairman. You may proceed, Mr. Bentley. Mr. Bentley. The phase of the matter I wish to submit and to especially ask Senator Owen about, is this: The Creek Nation has made investigation and the department has made investigation and have found that while there has been $800 available to those who were all to receive $1,040, there are 62 persons down there who received nothing, and who never wiU, probably, receive anything. They have been given neither land nor money, and, I submit to the committee, would it not be fair in accepting this proposition to make the $800 payment to provide that those whose rights are unquestioned INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 553 should at least be paid first $800 each ? They have appealed to me frequently to speak for them here. Senator Owen. Are they on the approved roll ? Mr. Bentley. No; they are not; but the matter has been inves- tigated, and Mr. Mott has stated to this committee that there were 62. The department has also investigated, and for some reason the rolls were closed before they were admitted. There is no land that could be given them; there is nothing but money that could be given them, and naturally it should be given to them. Senator Owen. There was a roll of 52 upon which there were several Creeks Mr. Bentley. Sixty-two, Senator. Senator Owen. There are 52; that included all tribes. Mr. Bentley. No, sir; those are entirely Creeks. Most of them are full bloods; those who appealed to me to intercede for them here were fuU-blood Creek Indians. Some of them — I know their faces and have seen them for many years — they live in the neighborhood of Eufalla. I wish to say further that I have no contract. I appear *in no way as attorney. It is not a matter of one penny to me one way or the other. I am simply calling the attention ol the committee to these helpless people left there with nothing, and submit as a matter of fairness if the others are to be paid up to $800 that these 62 be provided for. * 5;, Senator Owen. I would like to ask the representative of the Creek Nation, Mr. Allen, if he is informed with regard to this matter ? Mr. Allen. Mr. Chairman and Senators, there is some contention I know, on that part of a good many that several Creeks have been left off the approved roll. They were given some 8 or 10 years to get on the roll. I believe if you opened the roU of the Creek Nation now you would delay for an indefinite time the settlement of the affairs of the tribe and it would work an immeasurable mjury to the citizens of that tribe. I am not in favor of the opening of the rolls. I am not in favor of admitting any, except as to persons named by Judge Pollock, because if you do open the roUs and close them in 20 years there wiU still be probably some people who wiU in the future clamor for admission. Senator Townsend. You say there has been given 8 or 10 years for them to get on the rolls. How can they get on the roUs ? Mr. Allen. There was at that time. Senator Townsend. How could they during those 8 or 10 years get on the rolls ? Mr. Allen. By the enrollment process that was provided for by Congress. Senator Townsend. But the roUs were closed against them. Mr. Allen. The Dawes Commission was created for that purpose. Senator Clapp. You represent the tribe, do you not ? Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. Senator Clapp. Those were not those whose names arrived here too late ? Senator Owen. No; I do not think they were classified just that way. Mr. Bentley. Their names are classified here by the department in that way. 554 INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. Senator Clapp. I do not see why we could not do it as well one time as another. There is a group, of names there, but it was no fault of theirs. The office sent them up here, but they did not get here. Senator Owen. Fifty- two? Senator Clapp. Fifty-two. It does seem to me that we ought to take that matter up and dispose of it once and for all. Senator Owen. I would like to have a bill reported covering that case. It has been sent in here heretofore, and I would be glad to introduce a bill to provide for them. The only reason that it has not been acted on is that every time it came up, to take care of the 52 that were reported by the department as entitled, in their opinion; was that immediately it was used as an opening of the door and throwing these rolls wide open. Senator Clapp. I know, and it has delayed this matter. I do think that we ought, as a committee, to take that hst and settle it. I fully agree with the Senator against opening the rolls down there. It would take a long time to ever straighten it, and in the last analysis there would still be somebody who was left. But I think the com- mittee should separate this from the attempt that is always made in connection with it to add a whole lot more, and it does seem to me — and I think you will agree with me — that as to that list of names there is no question but that they should have gone on. Senator Owen. Yes; that is true. Senator Clapp. And, if true, ought they not to be provided for as well as the Creeks in this amendment ? Senator Owen. There is an abundance of money left to cover those particular cases, and I would be glad to have the committee authorize the reporting of a bill taking care of the 52 who were reported by the Interior Department at that time. Senator Townsend. May I ask the commissioner if since he has been in office he has investigated this question with reference to the Creeks and with reference to several hundred of the Choctaws who live on the reservation I am talking about now — the orphan chil- dren, etc., who claim to have a right to enrollment down there — I am not talking about the Mississippi Choctows or those people who came from somewhere else, but there are two classes of Indians there who have been pressing their claims here ever since I have been in Con- gress, and they have never received consideration. What has the department done about it? Commissioner Sells. It has not been investigated sufficiently to take a position on it at this time. Senator Clapp. Are you sure that on the passage of this amend- ment there would still be sufficient for this list that I have been talking about? Senator Owen. Yes. Mr. Allen. Senator, if you will permit me on that question, they now have in the Treasury and in the State and national banks in Oklahoma S3,885,000. To equahze all of the allotments in the Creek Nation upon a basis of 1800, as suggested in this amendment, there would still be left nearly a million dollars^ — something over $900,000. I do not think that if the rolls are to be opened at all they should be opened except to admit those names that have been suggested and investigated by the Interior Department. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 555 Senator Clapp. There is no proposition here, emanating from the committee, as far as I know, to open the rolls. But we have had this particular group frequently suggested— it has been now, for four or ^Ye years, I think— and every time we have undertaken to deal with that there are a whole lot more added. I am in favor, if the committee is, of taking that group and cleaning it up. - Senator Owen. I would like to have it done. Senator Clapp. Would it not be a good plan to do it in this bill ? Senator Owen. I do not think it would because a point of order would lie against it. Senator Clapp. A point will lie against your amendment. Senator Owen. I do not think so. Senator Clapp. Certainly it would. Senator Owen. It is carrying out the treaty. Senator Clapp. This other would be carrying out the treaty. These people were entitled to enrollment. Senator Owen. But it would be changing existing law because the law concluded the rolls on March 4, 1907. Senator Clapp. But our only justification for puttbig these men on would be this, that the law theoretically closed the roll, and they should have been on the roll. So it would be carryuig out the treaty. Their rights now depend upon that treaty and upon the law. Senator Owen. But the rolls were actually closed by a statute law, and it would be changing the statute law. The statute law ought to be changed as to those 52. The reason which justifies it is perfectly plain, but I think the point of order would He, never- theless, because this changes the existing statute. Senator Clapp. I shall not press it as against your amendment it we will go to work after we get through with this and clean it up. Senator Owen. I would be very glad to have an act .passed and dispose of it. Senator Lane. This would not take all the money; there will be enough left ? Senator Owen. There is $900,000 besides. Senator Townsend. T am wondering il we will ever ^et these matters settled as they ought to be so long as we distribute the money. It seems to me a good plan to stop distributing the money until we get these little matters settled. Senator Owen. That would enable the citizens to levy blackmail on these tribes. Senator Townsend. I do not Imow how that can be done, I am sure. Senator Owen. It is perfectly plain to anyone who will give it a moment's thought. • , i /- i_ Senator Clapp. Senator Townsend, I thmk the figures show beyond any question that there is abundant means to take care oi those and il the amendment of Senator Owen ought to go on the bill, I will not personally jeopardize it as to a pomt of order by the addition of the other item. , • ^ j- ^ -u 4- Senator Lane. It seems to me that it we are gomg to distribute the monev equitably the sooner we begin the better. I his idea ol paving off these claims— while they are probably due— delays the Lai Settlement that much longer, and with less money to accom- plish it. 656 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. Senator Townsend. This argument has been made for five years, and no progress has been made on it as yet. Senator Clapp. Wliy could not this be done : You go on with your amendment and then prepare another amendment so that a point of order would not jeopardize it, and put it through? Senator Owen. I am willing to do that, but I think it is only my duty to tell the committee. that some of these claimants to citizen- ship will get some Senator who does not know much about it to make a point of order upon it. That is what they usually do. But I will •be glad to follow that course. I think the 52 ought to go on the rolls. Senator Clapp. I do not think they could maintain a point of order asrainst that. • Senator Owen. It does change existmg law. Senator Clapp. It is carrying out the law, and the only theory upon which it could be done is that they were within that law, but owing to this delay in getting the roll here the Secretary could not act. Senator Townsend. And that is exactly what is going to happen in these cases. These Indians that are entitled to go on the roll, and it is admitted that some of them who are entitled ought to have gone on the roll. When this money is distributed there will be some shrewd attorneys presentoig claims against the United States for the shares that these Indians would have been entitled to if they had been treated properly, and I for one would vote for it if it is shown clearly that through the fault of the Government we have denied the Indians property that belongs to them. I shall certainly insist that they be paid if we can ever get a hearing on it. I think that we are making a great mistake in distributing this money before we settle these par- ticular matters, and if a point of order will lie against this proposition without this other amendment to it it mil be made, because I am opposed to this. I have presented this two or three times with the assurance that we are going to do something about it. I do not want to make a raid upon the property of the Indians. I do not want to open the roll. I have voted against the Mississippi Choctaw proposi- tion, but I do know, as well as I know anything, that there are Indians who are as much entitled to this distribution as the Indians who are going to receive it, and yet we, their guardians here, are preventiiag them from getting what is coming to them. I think it is wrong, and I shall oppose it just as strongly as I can. Senator Owen. Senator, is it your idea that an amendment pro- viding for the 52 should necessarily be made a part of the Creek dis- tribution of those entitled to the equalization certificates? Senator Townsend. I tliink so, if there are Indians there. Senator Owen. I do not know how many Creeks there are on that list. I think there are probably 10 or 12, and there is $941,000 left after that distribution is made — an abundance to cover it. Senator Townsend. That has been the argument here year after year since I have been on the committee, and still we are not any nearer to it. We are constantly putting the Indians off, and it is said that there is enough money left. But when are we going to do it? Senator Owen. I think the charge that we are constantly giving money away to these Indians reminds me of the case of the fellow who spoke about his wife. He said, "She asked me for $2, $4, $5, and $10." The man asked him, "What did she do with all that INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 557 money ?^' He said, ''I have not given her any yet.' The fact is we have not given these people this money. We promised it to them in 1902. They asked for it m 1903, and we promised it and promised it, but have never given them a dollar as yet. They are entitled to this money. It is their money, and distributing to them S800 leaves $941,000 yet remaining — more than sufficient to cover the cases that you have in mind. Senator Townsend. But they are not any more entitled to it than those cases. If the showing of the department is correct, they are no more entitled to receive a dollar than the Indians who have been left off the rolls. Senator Lane. A little less entitled to it, for the reason that they have had part of theirs already. Senator Owen. Does your suggestion that because there are 14 or 15 or a more or less number of Creeks left off that roll it would justify the United States in denying thousands of people who are on that roll? I do not think it ought to be insisted upon, because after all, putting the 52 on this bill is undoubtedly a matter that is subject to a point of order, because the act of March 4, 1907, definitely closed the roll and this is changing existing law. I am in favor of putting the 52 on. I am in favor of changing the existing law, but it does change existing law, and under the rules of the Senate would be subject to a point of order, and your insistence that those two should go together would make this go out on a point of order ; whereas, left alone, the equalization fund is not subject to a point of order, because that is carrying out existing law. I would be glad to have both items go on, but separately. I hope the Senator will not insist upon putting them together merely to allow^ a point of order to go against both of them, when other- wise the point of order would only hold against one. I would also favor reporting an independent bill putting on the 52, which is not subject to a pom t of order. Senator Clapp. We could not get it through the House. Senator Owen. I think we will precipitate the fight in the House in a flat open way, without any fight about it as to whether the rolls shall be opened, and the House must determine that on its merits, and as soon as it can be brought before the House in parliamentary fashion, where it can be considered independently, the better. Senator Clapp. That is true. Senator Owen. And I shall ask the consent of the committee to report these 52 as an independent bill and also as an amendment to this bill. I hope there will not be any objection to that. Senator Townsend. Suppose you put a proviso in here; will that invahdate the whole business ? Senator Owen. Of course it would. Senator Lane. The best way to adjust it for these 52 Indians would be to attach them to the justly recognized claim of these other Indians. If you put them in separately, and as a moiety and come to Congress, it will be pretty hard to pass legislation for them; but if taken up in connection with these claims and it can be shown that they are getting this money, nobody will want to oppose it. There are some 52 unfortunates who are left out and who are equally entitled, and no Senator who understands the question would raise 558 INDIAN APPBOPRIATION BILL. any point of order against the proposition, and I do not think they would in the House. Senator Owen. But the trouble is that they do not understand it. Some Senator has his mind misled by the lobbying of some man who is concerned in preventing any action. Senator Clapp. Senator Lane, it seems to me this is a fair way: There are a certain number there who are entitled to this, and it is not their fault that they have not had it. It is ours. Now, as long as it appears beyond any earthly question that there is an abundance out of which to pay the other 52 it does not seem to me that it is fair to those whose claims have been estabUshed to withhold their moneys simply by yoking up that proposition with this other one. Per- sonally I doubt whether the point would be sustained, but there is a clear distinction between Senator Owen's present amendment and the other as to a point of order. I should think the thing to do would be to put this amendment in and go right ahead and introduce the other one. Senator Townsend. What would be the objection to putting your motion in too, making it $400 ? Senator Owen. That would not do at all, because all of them have been given land. It is the difference between $400 and $800 that has been at issue. The certificate is charged with the amount of land that they have, leaving a certain balance due. Cutting this $800 is equivalent to saying the certificate shall be paid, less $240, the dif- ference between $800 and $1,040. I would like to have the commis- sioner explain that matter, if he is familiar with it. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, there are enrolled 15,784 what are known as agreement Indians. There are also enrolled 2,920 new- borns, making a total of Creek enrollments of 18,704 Indians. There is now in the Treasury of the United States $2,792,254.02 to the credit of the Creek Indians. There is deposited in the banks of Oklahoma $1,089,201.40, making a total of $3,871,455.42. There are not suffi- cient funds in the Treasury to equalize the Creek allotments on a basis of $900 each. The department has figured out that we can equalize those allotments on a basis of $800 each, which would require $2,943,573. That would leave to the credit of the Indians $941,481. It is admitted by the department that there are at least 52 Indians in the Five Civilized Tribes who should be enrolled. The rolls of the Five Civilized Tribes were closed on March 4, 1907, by the act of April 26, 1906. Commissioner Wright, who had charge of the enrolHng matters in Oklahoma, transmitted to the department 52 names with the recommendation that they be enrolled, but those names reached the department too late to be enrolled prior to the closing of the rolls on March 4, 1907. The department after that date had no authority to enroll those persons. The department has for a number of years been trying to equalize those allotments and get this money belonging to the Creek Indians into their hands. The department has been blocked in this matter very largely by attorneys, who have contracts outstanding and who hope to get a certain percentage from each Indian who will share in this fund. Senator Townsend. Mr. Commissioner, how have the attorneys blocked you ? INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 559 Mr. Meritt. Every time the matter came up a point of order was made. It was made by some one who did not understand the matter very thoroughly. We feel that it would be an equitabk^ adjustment of this matter at this time to equalize these allotments on the basis of $800. That would leave nearly $1,000,000 in the Treasury and if there are any other Creek Indians who should share in this prop- erty, there would be ample funds remaining so that they coukl be provided for. The department is in favor of the amendment offered by Senator Owen. , Senator TowNSEND. How many Creek Indians are there? Mr. Meritt. Eighteen thousand seven himdred and four. Senator To WNSEND. I mean, of the 52 Indians, how many are Creek Indians ? Mr. Meritt. There are 10 or 15, if I recall. Senator Townsend. How much is each of the Creek Indians sup- posed to receive? Mr. Meritt. They are supposed to receive 160 acres of land, worth $1,040. Senator Townsend. There is no more land there % Mr. Meritt. There is no land available for allotment purposes except one or two tracts — a few tracts. Senator Townsend. So that the only way these Indians who have been left oflP could be equalized would be by giving them money? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. They could not get any land ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Townsend. Would they be entitled to $1,040 apiece? Senator Owen. $800, according to this distribution. Senator Townsend. And what was the original allotment among the Indians, $1,040? .Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. If these Indians are to be treated justly and equally, the 15 Indians wiU be entitled to $1,040 apiece if they get what the others received ? . Mr. Meritt. I think they would be entitled to that amount. Senator Owen. It would give them $15,000 or $16,000. Senator Townsend. $15,600. Mr. Bentley. There are 62 of those. Senator, and Senator Clapp is also in error. There are fcwo lists, one list of 52 that are Choctaws and some others; but the attorney for the Creeks has heretofore investigated and the Secretary of the Interior has investigated and has found that there are 62 of the Creeks alone. That hst pertains to no others than those now under consideration. It does not include the others. Senator Clapp. But it would come out, if they were admitted finally, of the nine hundred and odd thousand dollars remaining of money. Mr. Bentley. Ihat is true, and then again it should be taken into account that a thousand of the 17,000 have already got $1,040, and- some of them $30,000 and $40,000 worth of land. Ihe more ignorant the Indian was the less he got. A certain element of the Creek Na- tion, the wisest ones, got ten times the value that the others got and I submit to the committee if this is left off now it is poor consolation to the Indians who have nothing — old, decrepit Indians down there — ' 560 INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. it is poor consolation to them that some time in the future, when they are dead, possibly, their claims will be granted. Senator Clapp. But suppose their names were included on the list, by name, and it was adopted, though notwithstanding some of those got better land than the others, you would still admit, I think, that they would have to be equalized on this cash basis ? Mr. Bentley. Certainly; that is what I am asking for them, that of the 62 who are shown by the records of the department — and it is asserted by the authority of the Creek Nation, are entitled — that they, when this payment shall be made, shall be equalized up to the others and given $800 each. I want to say to you that in that group are men who served in the Union Army, old men — full-blood Cr^k Indians — who, if you do not pay them soon will never live to get any- thing, and I certainly hope that this committee will not turn them down. Senator Owen. Mr. Commissioner, do you know anything about that 62 list that Mr. Bentley is speaking of? Mr. Meritt. I suppose he is referring to the investigation made by Mr. Pollock a few years ago. He found that there were certain Indians who he thought were entitled to enrollment. Mr. Bentley. I might say that Capt. Grayson, one of the Creek Indians, is here. He knows of this list. He is one of the persons left out. STATEMENT OF GEORGE W. GRAYSON. Mr. Grayson. I think Mr. Bentley is correct. I saw a hst of those persons. Their names are registered an.d their degree of blood, and all the things that are necessary to inform one about as to their status, and the number I thought was 62. Mr. Ballinger. Here is a hst, if anyone desires to see it. Mr. Grayson. I thought there was 64, but I understand latterly that there are only 62. That I understand to be correct. We were represented in the investigation. Senator, by our then attorney, and there were many other people wanting to come onto the list, but they were found not to be eligible to enroUment, and they were pushed away and only 62 or 64, as the case may be, admitted. It was sent up here to the department, and I have a list at my room some place showing 62, I think, and we understand that those people really ought to be included in our other people. Senator Lane. Are you a Creek Indian ? Mr. Grayson. I am. Senator Lane. Are you in favor of admitting these people? Mr. Grayson. Yes, sir; I certainly am. Senator Owen. I just want to ascertain the facts for the record — just what the facts were. Mr. Grayson. It seems to me that by putting in, naming, and add- ing those people onto our list would not give a license for everybody else to open up the roUs. It seems to me that this would be proper. Anyway, we want it done. Mr. Bentley. I want to suggest, by way of expediting the matter of reaching axi easy solution that the names of these persons are now in a pubUc document — referring to them by page and number, with- out burdening the record or the law with the names, which meets the situation completely. A very short amendment will reach it. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 561 • Senator Clapp. Supposing now that the amendment offered by Senator Owen is not subject to a point of order or can not be chal- lenged on a point of order, but by adding to it these names which were left off because the law had ceased its operation it became sub- ject to a point of order, do you think that they should be put into one amendment so that ajiybody who wanted to hold it up could make a point of order against these names in the amendment relating to them to also defeat the apportionment provided for in Senator Owen's amendment when it is conceded by everybody that there is an abun- dance of money on hand to apportion to each one of those 62 ? I used the expression ''52" earlier in the discussion, but you say 62, and I guess you are right about that. Mr. Bentley. In answer I would say it is my belief that unless the attorneys representing the Creek Nation themselves object to it nobody will offer a point of order. Senator Clapp. If nobody offered a point of order and a second amendment was put on covering this, they would get their mone under this appropriation bill now pending. The only suggestion- that I have made is that they be kept separate so that if anybody did make a point of order against the 62 it would not affect the apportionment provided for by the amendment of Senator Owen. Mr. Bentley. I see the point very clearly. Senator Clapp. If nobody made the j)oint of order then those 62 would get their reUef right in this same bill. Senator Gronna. It seems to me the amendment offered by Senator Owen should not be put off for the second amendment. I am in favor of making a separate amendment following the amendment proposed by the Senator from Oklahoma. I can see no good reason why it should not go in. Senator OwEX. Representatives of the Creeks themselves desire that those names go on and nobody has a right to object. Senator Gronna. It is simply a matter of distribution, it seems to me. Mr. Bentley. It is such a pocuhar situation that the tribal attorney comes here and he seems to be only for those Indians. Senator Clapp. That does not control. Mr. Bentley. No: but they are the people who always make these points of order. Senator Owen. In this case the Creek's attorney desires the en- rollment of these people. Mr. Allen. I said when I was on my feet that there was a hst that I had understood had been approved by the department. I want now to make myself perfectly plain. I am wiUing for such of the 62 as Mr. Pollock has named, and as the Commissioner of Indian Altairs shall find are Creek citizens, to be enrolled. I am not wiUmg for Mr. Bentley or Mr. Balhnger to furnish the roll of the Creek citizens tor you to*adopt, and to have them paid out of the Creek funds. I am willing to have all of those names of citizens named by Pollock who have been left off the roU admitted. -i, • • Now, I think that an amendment could be suggested authorizing and directing the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to enroll such ol these Indians or citizens (most of them, I take it, are ne^oes; that has been the rule in the recent enrollments) as the Commissioner ot Indian Affairs shall find are entitled to be enrolled. That is the only 562 INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL, objection that I have to it. I just want to know that those people are citizens of the Creek Nation before they are enrolled. Senator Gronna. It seems now that it was stated before thas com- mittee, and it is admitted, that 62 of those Indians are entitled to enrollment. Senator Owen. There were 52 in the first roll, and then there were 62 in the second roll, which were not recognized but which are beheved by the Creeks to be properly allotted, and they are willing to have the commissioner take that roll of 62 and see whether it is right. Mr. Allen. That is what I mean. I want to say that, so far as the attorneys are concerned, that the Creek Indians have been clamoring for 10 years for this legislation. ^ In support of this amendment and another amendment pending here I desire to submit the following memorandum : Exhibit. As attorney for the Creek Nation, I desire as briefly as the facts will permit to inform this committee of previous legislation enacted by Congress and treaties entered into with the Creek Nation by the Government of the United States which justify the amendment intended to be proposed by Senator Owen to this bill, which, if adopted, will authorize the equalization of Creek allotments upon a basis of $900, and also the second amendment intended to be proposed by Senator Owen which will authorize brining of a suit in the Court of Claims against the United States to recover such sum as will be necessary to equalize all Creek allotments upon a basis of |1,040. and also a suit against the United States to recover the amount claimed by the Creek Nation against the United States, based on alleged errors in the survey of the western boundary lines of the Creek Nation. A proper understanding of the recent legislation can not be had without reviemng the earl^ acts of Congress and treaties with the Creek Indians, by the terms of which the territory now embraced in the Creek Nation in Oklahoma was ceded to the Creek Tribe of Indians. On the 7th day of August, 1790 (7 Stat., 35), a treaty was entered into at New York between the Government of the United States, represented by Henry Knox, Secre- tary for the Department of War, and the Creek Indians, by the terms of which the boundaries of certain territory in Georgia were definitely fixed and all the lands em- braced therein ceded to the ureek Indians. By this treaty the Creeks were required to give up other lands claimed and possessed by them in the State of Georgia, and by this treaty they relinquished and quit-claimed said lands. On the 9th day of August, 1814 (7 Stat., 120), on account of the disloyalty of the Creek Tribe to the Government of the United vStates, as declared in the preamble, the Government of the United States, acting through Maj. Gen. Andrew Jackson, reqLiired the Creeks, by treaty then entered into, to give up certain parts of the terri- tory theretofore ceded to them; the part they were required to relinquish being described in the first paragraph of said treaty. On the 12th day of February, 1825 (7 Stat., 237), the United States entered into a treaty with the Creek Indians, by the terms of which the Creeks ceded to the United States all lands owned and possessed by them in the State of Georgia, in consideration of which the United States agreed to grant to the Creek Indians a like number of acres west of the Mississippi River on the Arkansas River, commencing at the mouth of the Canadian and running westward between said rivers, Arkansas and Canadian fork, for quantity. After this treaty was entered into a large majority of the Creeks became dissatisfied vnih its terms and the manner in which it was entered into, 9,nd this dissatisfaction brought about negotiations between the Creek Indians and the United States, which resulted ultimately in the making of the treaty of JanWy 24,- 1826 (7 Stat., 286). By the terms of this treaty the treaty of February 12, 1825, was annulled, and the Creek Indians again ceded to the United States lands owned by them in Georgia, in consideration of which it was agreed that a commission should be appointed to select lands for the Creek Indians west of the Mississippi. On the 14th da}* of Februar>, 1833 (7 Stat., 417), the treaty was entered into by the United States and the Creek Nation by the terms of which the United States ceded to the Creek Indians the lands selected by them in the Indian Territory. Arti- cles 2, 3, and 4 of this treaty are as follows: INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. 563 "Art. II. The United States hereby agree, by and with the consent of the Creek and Cherokee delegates this day obtained, that the Muskogee or Creek country west of the Mississippi shall be embraced within the following boundaries, viz: Beginning at the mouth of the Forth Fork of the Canadian River and run northerly 4 miles; thence runiiing a straight line so as to meet a Une drawn from the south bank of the Arkansas River opposite to the east or lower bank of Grand River at its junction with the Arkansas, and which runs a course south 44° west, 1 mile, to a post placed in the^ound; thence along said Une to the Arkansas, and up the same and the Verdi- gris lliver to where the old territorial Une crosses it; thence along said line north to a point 25 miles from the Arkansas River where the old territorial line crosses the same; thence running a line at right angles with the territorial line aforesaid, or west, to the Mexico line; thence along the said line southerly to the Canadian River or to the boundary of the Choctaw country; thence down said river to the place of begin- ning. The lines hereby defining the country of the Muskogee Indians on the north and east bound the country of the Cherokees along these courses, as settled by the treaty concluded this day between the United States and that tribe. "Art. III. The United States will grant a patent, in fee simple, to the Creek Na- tion of Indians for the land assigned said nation by this treaty or convention when- ever the same shall have been ratified by the President and 'Senate of the United States, and the right thus guaranteed by the United States shall be continued to said tribe of Indians so long as they shall exist as a nation and continue to occupy the country hereby assigned them. "Art. IV. It is hereby mutually understood and agreed between the parties to this treaty that the land assigned to the Muskogee Indians by the second article there- of shall be taken and, considered the property of the whole Muskogee or Creek Nation, as well of those now residing upon the land as the great body of said nation who still remain on the east side of the Mississippi; and it is also understood and agreed that the Seminole Indians of Florida, whose removal to this country is provided for by their treaty with the United States dated May 9, 1832, shall also have a permanent and comfortable home on the lands hereby set apart as the country of the Creek Nation; and they (the Seminoles) will hereafter be considered a constituent part of said nation, but are to be located on some part of the Creek country by themselves — which loca- tion will be selected for them by the commissioners who have signed these articles of agreement or convention." It will be observed by the terms of the last-mentioned treaty that the Seminole Indians of Florida, whose removal to this country was provided for by the treaty of May 9, 1832, should have a permanent and comfortable home on the lands set apart as a country of the Creek Nation . This commingUng of the two tribes resulted in an unfriendly relation existing between them, on account of which a treaty was negotiated and entered into by the United States and the Creek Nation on August 7, 1856, by the terms of which the following lands theretofore embraced in the Creek Nation were ceded to the Seminole Tribe of Indians: " Beginning on the Canadian River, a few miles east of the ninety-seventh parallel of west longitude, where Ock-hi-appo, or Pond Creek, empties into the same; thence, due north to the North Fork of the Canadian; thence up said North Fork of the Cana- dian to the southern line of the Cherokee country; thence with that Une, west, to the one hundredth parallel of west longitude; thence, south along said parallel of longitude to the Canadian River, and then down and with that river to the place of beginning." By the terms of this treaty, the boundary of the Creek Nation was again definitely fixed and certain other agreements made, as shown by the following articles of said agreement; Art. 2. The following shall constitute and remain the boundaries of the Creek country, viz, beginning at the mouth of the North Fork of the Canadian River, and running northerly four miles; thence running a straight line so as to meet a line drawn from the south bank of the Arkansas River, opposite to the east or lower bank of Grand River, at its junction with the Arkansas, and which runs a course south forty-four degrees, west one mile, to a post placed in the ground; thence along said Une to the Arkansas and up the same and the Verdigris River to where the old Ter- ritorial Une crosses it; thence along said Une north to a point twenty-five miles from the Arkansas River, where the old Territorial Une crosses the same; thence running west with the southern Une of the Cherokee country to the North Fork of the Canadian River, where the boundary of the cession to the Seminoles defined in the preceding article first strikes said Cherokee Une; thence down said North Fork to where the eastern boundary line of the said cession to the Seminoles strikes the same; thence wiljh that line due south to the Canadian River, at the mouth of the Ock-hi-appo, or Pond Creek; and thence down said Canadian River to the place of beginning. 3974G_PT 2—14 ^10 564 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Art. 3. The United States do hereby aolemnly guarantee to the Seminole Indians the tract of country ceded to them by the first article of this convention; and to the Creek Indians the lands included within the boundaries defined in the second article hereof; and likewise that the same shall respectively be secured to and held by said Indians by the same title and tenure by which they were guaranteed and secured to the Creek Nation by the fourteenth article of the treaty of March twenty-fourth, eighteen hundred and thirty-two, the third article of the treaty of February fourteenth, eighteen hundred and thirty-three, and by letters patent issued to the said Creek Nation on the eleventh day of August, eighteen hundred and fifty-two, and recorded in volume four of records of Indian deeds in the Office of Indian Affairs, pages 445 and 447: Provided, however, That no part of the tract of country so ceded to the Seminole Indians shall ever be sold or otherwise disposed of without the consent of both tribes legally given. Art. 4. The United States do hereby solemnly agi'ee and bind themselves that no State or Territory shall ever pass laws for the government of the Creek or Seminole* tribes of Indians, and that no portion of either of the tracts of country defined in the, first and second articles of this agreement shall ever be embraced or included within, or annexed to, any Territory or State, nor shall either, or any part of either, ever be erected into a Territory without the full and free consent of the legislative authority of the tribe owning the same. Art. 5. The Creek Indians do hereby absolutely and forever quitclaim and relin- quish to the United States all their right, title, and interest in and to any lands hereto- fore owned or claimed by them, whether east or west of the Mississippi River, and any and all claim for or on account of any such lands, except those embraced within the boundaries described in the second article of this agreement; and it doth also, in like manner, release and fully discharge the United States from all other claims and demands whatsoever, which the Creek Nation or any individual thereof may now have against the United States, excepting only such as are particularly or in terms provided for and secured to them by the provisions of existing treaties and laws. * * * The treaty last above referred to closed all treaty negotiations between the Creek Tribe of Indians and the United States prior to the close of the Civil War. The Creek Tribes of Indians, as was true of the other tribes in the Indian Territory, owned slaves, and their sympathies naturally were with the Southern Confederacy, so at the outbreak of the Civil War, under the leadership of Gen. Albert Pike, a large majority of the Creek Indians joined the Southern Confederacy. Thereafter, and on the 14th day of June, 1866, a treaty was entered into between the Creek Tribe of Indians and the United States, which treaty is in part as follows: PREAMBLE. "Whereas existing treaties between the United States and the Creek Nation have become insufficient to meet their mutual necessities ; and Whereas the Creeks made a treaty with the so-called Confederate States on the tenth of July, one thousand eight hundred and sixty-one, whereby they ignored their allegiance to the United States and unsettled the treaty relations existing between the Creeks and the United States, and did so render themselves liable to- forfeit to the United States all benefits and advantages enjoyed by them in lands, annuities, protection, and immunities, including their lands and other property held by grant or gift from the United States; and whereas in view of said liabUitiea the United States require of the Creeks a portion of their land whereon to settle other Indians; and whereas a treaty of peace and amity was entered into between the United States and the Creeks and other tribes at Fort Smith, September tenth, eighteen hundred and sixty-five, whereby the Creeks revoked, canceled, and repudiated the aforesaid treaty made with the so-called Confederate States; and whereas the United States, through its commissioners in said treaty of peace and amity, promised to enter into treaty with the Creeks to arrange and settle all questions relating to and growing out of said treaty with the so-called Con- federate States; now, therefore, the United States, by its commissioners, and the above-named delegates of the Creek Nation, the day and year above mentioned, mutually stipulate and agree, on behalf of the respective parties, as follows, to wit: "Article 1. There shall be perpetual peace and friendship between the parties to this treaty, and the Creeks bind themselves to remain firm allies and friends of the United States, and never to take up arms against the United States, but always faithfully to aid in putting down its enemies. They also agree to remain at peace with all other Indian tribes; and, in return the United States guarantees them quiet possession of their country, and protection against hostilities, on the part of other tribes. In the event of hostilities, the United States agree that the tribe commencing INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 565 and prosecuting the same shall, as far as may be practicable, make just reparation therefor. To insure this protection, the Creeks agree to a military occupation of their country, at any time, by the United States, and the United States agree to sta- tion and continue in said country from time to time, at its own expense, such force as may be necessary for tliat purpose. A general amnesty of all past offenses against the laws of the United States, committed by any member of the Creek Nation, is hereby declared. And the Creeks, anxious for tlie restoration of kind and friendly feelings among themselves, do hereby declare an amenesty for all past offenses against their Government and no Indian or Indians sliall be proscribed, or any act of forfeiture or confiscation passed against those who have remained friendly to, or taken up arms against, the United States, but they shall enjoy equal privileges with other members of said tribe, and all laws heretofore passed inconsistent herewith are hereby declared inoperative. "Art. 2. The Creeks hereby covenant and agree that henceforth neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, otherwise than in the punishment of crimes, whereof the parties shall have been duly convicted in accordance with laws applicable to all mem- bers of said tribe, shall ever exist in said nation; and inasmuch as there are among the Creeks many persons of African descent, who have no interest in the soil, it is stipulated that hereafter these persons lawfully residing in said Creek country under their laws and usages or who have been thTis residing in said country and may return within one year from the ratification of this treaty, and their descendants and such others of the same race as may be permitted by the laws of the said nation to settle within the limits of the jurisdiction of the Creek Nation as citizens (thereof), shall have and enjoy all the rights and privileges of native citizens, including an equal interest in the soil and national funds, and the laws of said nation shall be equally binding upon and give equal protection to all such jDersons, and all others of whatso- ever race or color who may be adopted as citizens or members of said tribe." "Art. 3. In compliance with the desire of the United States to locate other Indians and freedmen thereon, the Creeks hereby cede and convey to the United States, to be sold to and used as homes for such other civilized Indians as the United States may choose to settle thereon, the west half of their entire domain, to be divided by a line running north and south; the eastern half of the said Creek lands being retained by them shall, except as herein otherwise stipulated, be forever set apart as a home for said Creek Nation; and in consideration of said cession of the west half of their lands, estimated to contain three million two hundred and fifty thou- sand five hundred and sixty acres, the United States agree to pay the sum of thirty (30) cents per acre, amounting to nine hundred and seventy-five thousand one hundred and sixty-eight dollars, in the manner hereinafter provided, to wit: Two hundred thousand dollars shall be paid per capita in money, unless otherwise directed by the President of the United States, upon the ratification of this treaty, to enable the Creeks to occupy, restore, and improve their farms, and to make their nation independent and self-sustaining, and to pay the damages sustained by the mission schools on the North Fork and the Arkansas Rivers, not to exceed two thous- sand dollars, and to pay the delegates such per diem as the agent and Creek Council may agree upon as a just and fair compensation, all of which shall be distributed for that purpose by the agent with the advice of the Creek Council, under the direc- tion of the Secretary of the Interior. One hundred thousand dollars shall be paid in money and divided to soldiers that enlisted in the Federal Army and the loyal refugee Indians and freedmen who were driven from their homes by the rebel forces to reimburse them in proportion to their respective losses; four hundred thousand dollars be paid in money and divided per capita to said Creek Nation unless otherwise directed by the President of the United States, under the direction of the Secretery of the Interior, as the same may accrue from the sale of land to other Indians. The United States agree to pay to said Indians, in such manner and for such purpose as the Sec- retary of the Interior may direct, interest at the rate of five per cent per annum from date of the ratification of this treaty, on the amount hereinbefore agreed upon for said ceded lands, after deducting the said two hundred thousand dollars; the residu^ two hundred and seventy-five thousand one hundred and sixty-eight dollars, shall remain in the Treasury of the United States,, and the interest thereon, at the rate of five per centum per annum, be annually paid to said Creeks as above stipulated. -A^RT 4 iXiediately after the ratification of this treaty the United States agree to Certain t^e amount due the respective soldiers who enlisted m the Federal Army K refugee Indians, and freecfmen, in i)roportion to f^^^.f ^^^^ ^^ff '/,^^ to mv the amount awarded each, in the following manner, to wit: A census of the Cre^k^ shalf be taken by the agent of the United States for said nation, under the directln of the Secretary of the Interior, and a roll of the names of all soldiers that STin the Federal aW, loyal refugee Indians, and freedmen, be made by him. 566 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. The Superintendent of Indian Affairs for the southern superintendency and the agent of the United States for the Creek Nation shall proceed to investigate and determine from said roll the amounts due the respective refugee Indians, ana snail transmit to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs for his approval, and that ol Uie bec- retarv of the Interior, their awards, together with the reasons therefor, in case the awards so made shall be duly approved, said awards shall be paid from the proceeds of the sale of said lands within one year from the ratification of this treaty, or so soon as said amount of one hundred thousand ($100,000) dollars can be raised from the sale of said land to other Indians." ., . ^ a ^-u x> -a ^ t ^x. " Art 10 The Creeks agree to such legislation as Congress and the I'resident ot the United States may deem necessary for the better administration of justice and the protection of the rights of person and property within the Indian Territory: Provided, however, That said legislation shall not in any manner interfere with or annul their present tribal organization, rights, laws, privileges, and customs. The Creeks also agree that a general council, consisting of delegates elected by each nation or tnbe* lawfully resident within the Indian Territory, may be annually convened in said Territory, which council shall be organized in such manner and possess such powers as are hereinafter described." , , , ^ • .^. r^ i at ^• The first legislation looking to the allotment of the land m the Creek JNation m severalty and destroying the communal owifership of the property was the act of June 28, 1898, commonly known as the Curtis Act, and entitled "An act for the protection of the people of the Indian Territory, and for other purposes." (30 Stat., 495.) The above act as affects the Creek Tribe of Indians being as follows: _ " Sec. 30. That the agreement made by the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes with the commission representing- the Muscogee (or Creek) Tribe of Indians on the twenty-seventh day of September, eighteen hundred and ninety-seven, as herein amended, is hereby ratified and confirmed, and the same shall be of full force and effect if ratified before the first day of December, eighteen hundred and ninety-eight, by a majority of the votes cast by the members of said tribe at an election to be held for that purpose; and the executive of said tribes is authorized and directed to make pubUc proclamation that said agreement shall be voted on at the. next general electioii to be called by such executive for the purpose of voting on said agreement; and if said agreement as amended be so ratified the provisions of this act-shall then only apply to ' said tribe where the same do not conflict with the provisions of said agreement; but the provisions of said agreement, if so ratified, shall not in any manner affect the pro- visions of section fourteen of this act, which said amended agreement is as follows: " 'This agreement by and between the Government of the United States of the first part, entered into in its behalf by the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, Henry L. Dawes, Frank C. Armstrong, Archibald S. McKennon, Alexander B. Montgomery, and Tams Bixby, duly appointed and authorized thereunto, and the government of the Muscogee or Creek Nation in the Indian Territory, of the second part, entered into in behalf of such Muscogee or Creek government, by its commission duly appointed and authorized thereunto, viz. Pleasant Porter, Joseph Mingo, David N. Hodge, George A. Alexander, Roland Brown, Williams A. Sapulpa, and Conchartie Micco, " * Witnesseth, That in consideration of the mutual undertakings herein contained, it is agreed as follows: GENERAL ALLOTMENT OP LAND. " ' 1 . There shall be allotted out of the lands owned by the Muscogee or Creek Indians in the Indian Territory to each citizen of said nation one hundred and sixty acres of land. Each citizen shall have the right, so far as possible, to take his one hundred and sixty acres so as to include their improvements which belong to him, but such improvements shall not be estimated in the value fixed upon his allotment, provided any citizen may take any land not already selected by anomer ; but if such land, under actual cultivation, has on it any lawful improvements, he shall pay the owner of said improvements for same, the value to be fixed by the commission appraising the land. In the case of a minor child, allotment shall be selected for him by his father, mother^ guardian, or the administrator having charge of his estate, preference being given in the order named, and shall not be sold during his minority. Allotments shall be selected for prisoners, convicts, and incompetents by some suitable person akin to them, and due care shall be taken that all persons entitled thereto shall have allot- ments made to them. '"2. Each allotment shall be appraised at what would be its present value if unim- proved, considering the fertility of the soil and its location but excluding the improve- ments, and each allottee shall be charged with the value of his allotment in the luture distribution of any funds of the nation arising from any source whatever, so that each INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 567 member of the nation shall be made equal in the distribution of the lands and moneys belonging to the nation, provided that the minimum valuation to be placed upon any land in the said nation shall be one dollar and twenty-five cents ($1.25) per acre,' " Some preliminary work was done by way of allotment of Creek lands under the act of June 28, 1898, but little was accomplished. The next legislation pertinent to this subject is to be found in the act of March 1, 1901, entitled An act to ratify and confirm an agi*eement with the Muscogee or Creek Tribe of Indians, and for other purposes." (31 Stat., 861.) This act, so far as it is relevant to the subject under inquiry in the said amendments, is as follows: ' ^Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That the agreement negotiated between the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes and the Muscogee or Creek Tribe of Indians at the city of Wash- ington on the eighth day of March, nineteen hundred, as herein amended, is hereby accepted, ratified, and confirmed, and the same shall be of full force and effect when ratified by the Creek National Council. The principal chief, as soon as practicable after the ratification of this agreement by Confess, shall call an extra session of the Creek National Council and lay before it this agreement and the act of Congress ratifying it, and if the agreement be ratified by said council as provided in the con- stitution of said nation, he shaU transmit to the President of the United States the act of council ratifying the agreement, and the President of the United States shall thereupon issue his proclamation declaring the same duly ratified and that all the provisions of this agreement have become law according to the terms thereof: Pro- vided, That such ratification by the Creek National Coimcil shall be made within ninety days from the approval of this act by the President of the United States." "This agreement by and between the United States, entered into in its behalf by the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, Henry L. Dawes, Tams Bixby, Archi- bald S. McKennon and Thomas B. Needles, duly appointed and authorized thereunto, and the Muskogee (or Creek) Tribe of Indians, in Indian Territory, entered into in behalf of said tribe by Pleasant Porter, principal chief, and George A. Alexander, David M. Hodge, Isparhecher, Albert P. McKellop, and Cub Mcintosh, delegates, duly appointed and authorized thereunto. " "Sec. 3. All lands of said tribe except as herein provided shall be allotted among the citizens of the tribe by said commission so as to give each an equal share of the whole in value, as nearly as may be, in manner following: There shall be allowed to each citizen one hundred and sixty acres of land, boundaries to conform to the Gov- ernment survey, which may be selected by him so as to include improvements which belong to him. One hundred and sixty acres of land, valued at six dollars and fifty cents per acre, shall constitute the standard value of an allotment, and shall be the measure for the equalization of values, and any allottee receiving lands of less than such standard value may at any time select other lands, which at their appraised value are sufficient to make his allotment equal in value to the standard so fixed. "Sec. 9. When allotment of one hundred and sixty acres has been made to each citizen, the residue of lands, not herein reserved or otherwise disposed of, and all the funds arising under this agreement shall be used for the purpose of equalizing allot- ments, and if the same be insufficient therefor, the deficiency shall be supphed out ot any other funds of the tribe, so that the allotrnents of all citizens may be made equal in value, as nearly as may be, in manner herein provided. " . , , ,, . By section 26 of the act of March 1, 1901 (31 Stat. 861) it is provided that certain claiins shall be submitted to the Senate of the United States for determination and within two years from the ratification of the agreement the Senate shall make final determination thereof and in this section it is further provided, -^ •, o^ ^ "That anv other claim which the Creek Nation may have against the United btates may be pro'secuted in the Court of Claims of the United States with right of appeal to the Supreme Court, and jurisdiction to try and determine such claim is hereby conferred upon said court. " .,,.,. * ^^ j.-^, a^ ^^rv^ On June 30, 1902, Congress passed an act entitled, "An Act to ratify and confarm a supplemental agreement with the Creek Tribe of Indians and for other purposes. ^^"1*^1' en^ted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States ofAm^- ica in Congress assembled. That the following supplemental agreement submitted by certain commissioners of the Creek Tribe of Indians as herein amended is hereby ratified and confirmed on the part of the United States, and the same shall be of full -force and effect if ratified by the Creek tribal council on or before the first day ot bep- SernSen hundred and two, which said supplemental agreement is as fol owsj "'This Sreement by and between the United States, entered into m its behalf by the ComnSfsLrto the^ive Civilized Tribes, Henry L. Dawes Tarns Bixby Thomas BNeeXs and Clifton R. Breckenridge, duly appointed and authorized thereunto, 668 INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. and the Muskogee (or Creek) Tribe of Indians in Indian Territory, entered into in behalf of the said tribe by Pleasant Porter, principal chief, Roley Mcintosh, Thomas W.Perryman, Amos Mcintosh, and David M. Hodge, commissioners duly appointed and authorized thereunto, witnesseth: That in consideration of the mutual under- takings herein contained it is agreed as follows : '"2. Section 2 of the agreement ratified by act of Congress approved March, 1901 (31 Stat. L., 861), is amended and as so amended is reenacted to read as follows: '''All lands belonging to the Creek Tribe of Indians in Indian Territory, except town sites and lands reserved for Creek schools and churches, railroads, and town cemeteries, in accordance with the provisions of the act of Congress approved March 1, 1901 (31 Stat. L., 861), shall be appraised at not to exceed $6.50 per acre, excluding only lawful improvements on lands in actual cultivation. "'Such appraisement shall be made, under the direction and supervision of the Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes, by such number of committees with nec- essary assistance as may be deemed necessarj^ to expedite the work, one member of each committee to be appointed by the principal chief. Said commission shall have authority to revise and adjust the work of said committees, and if the members of any committee fail to agree as to the value of any tract of land the value thereof shall be fixed by said commission. The appraisement so made shall be submitted to the Secretary of the Interior for approval.' "3. Paragraph 2 of section 3 of the agreement ratified by said act of Congress approved March 1, 1901, is amended and as so amended is reenacted to read as follows: If any citizen select lands the appraised value of which is $6.50 per acre, he shall not receive any further distribution of property or funds of the tribe until all other citizens have received lands and moneys equal in value to his allotment.' " By the terms of the treaties and acts of Congress referred to it is strongly contended that the citizens of the Creek Nation are legally entitled to an equalization of their allotments, and inasmuch as the Government of the United States stood in the rela- tion of guardian to these citizens, every consideration of justice and equity demand that these allotments be equalized. It is well known to all of those who have been thrown in contact with the Creek Tribe of Indians that it has always been their cherished hope that they would be permitted to remain upon the land selected by them and ceded by the Government to them and to own and-occupy it in common. They were persuaded by representatives of the Government to relinquish their right to hold the land in common guaranteed to them by every treaty that had ever been made with them upon the express agreement that they would each receive an equal share of the land of the tribe in the distribution of their property under govern- mental supervision. It is well known that the full-blood Indians find theii' domicile if possible among the hills where the land is of little value, on account of which by the discrimination that would be made in a failure to equalize the allotments the very class of Indians who need the protection of the United States would be most iajured by the refusal of the Government to live up to the agreement to allot the lands in equal shares. When these lands were being allotted the Interior Department recognized the force of the agreements to equalize the allotments, and to every citizen of the Creek Nation who received an allotment a certificate was issued, a sample copy of which is as follows: Equalization Certificate. C. 7684. Taylor, Timothy (full). WSEof 28-16-8— 5 B. -^ ^ - ^ SSW of 28-16-8— 7 B 5 B. $1, 040 value 560 Due. 480 There is now on deposit to the credit of the Creek Nation the sum' of $3,885,054.78. Under the acts of 1901 and 1902, 15,790 citizens of the Creek Nation received allotr ments and under subsequent acts of March 3, 1905, and April 29, 1906, 2,920 new-boms received allotments. ^ All we are now asking this committee to do is to permit the use of the money now m the Treasury to the credit of the Creek Nation, m equahzing allotments so far as they can be equalized with such sum to permit a suit to be brought in the Court of Claims to determine the liability of the United States for the payment of the out- standing duebills of which the above is a copy. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 569 In justification of the provision of the amendment intended to give authority to bring suit in the Court of Claims to recover the value of lands lost to the Creek Nation by reason of an erroneous survey of the west boundary line, I submit herewith copies of letters from the United States General Land Office, Washington, D. C , under dates of July 11, 1905, and April 5, 1906. Respectfully submitted. R. C. Allen, National Attorney for the Creek Nation. equalization report. April 4, 1914. My Dear Mr. Stephens: In response to your request of February 21, 1914, for a report on H. R. 13608, introduced in the House of Representatives on February 19, 1914, by Mr. Davenport, of Oklahoma, and entitled "A bill providing for equahzation of the Muskogee (Creek) Nation of Indians allotments, and for other purposes," and to be advised whether there are Creek tribal funds available to make such equahzation payment on the basis fixed in the bill, I have the honor to transmit herewith a state- ment showing that there was on deposit to the credit of the Ci>sek tribe in the United States Treasury on February 23, 1914, the sum of 12,784,797.93, and there had been deposited of Creek tribal funds in the National and State banks of Oklahoma under the act of Congress approved March 3, 1911 (36 Stat. L., 1058-1070), with accrued interest, the sum of $1,100,256.85, making a grand total of $3,885,054.78 of Creek tribal funds. The Creek tribal hinds on deposit in the National and State banks of Oklahoma under the above act may, under section 7 of the regulations approved October 27, 1911, as amended February 21, 1912, to carry into effect the above act, "be withdrawn at any time*by direction of the Secretary of the Interior without prior notice thereof." The Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes, Muskogee, Okla., under date of March 4, 1914, advised the Commissioner of Indian Affairs that $3,059,939 is required to equalize Creek allotments (excluding new-born children) to the value of $900, and under date of April 3, 1914, he further advised that to include new-born children (2,875 in number) on the same basis ($900) would require $1,413,565 additional, thus making a total of $4,473,504 required to equalize all Creek allotments to the value of $900, for which there are only $3,885,054.78 of Creek tribal funds available, leaving a deficit of $588,449.22 . So it will be seen that there are not sufiicient Creek tribal funds available for equalization of all Creek allotments to the value of $900. Therefore, I suggest that the figures $900 occurring in line 5, page 2, of the bill, be changed to $800. Out of a total of 18,704 Creek citizens, about 4,500 have aheady received land and money exceeding in value the sum of $80Q, wMch number includes 850 who have received allotments of 160 acres of the value of $1,040. Of this last number, under the provision that precluded the appraisal of land "not to exceed $6.50 per acre," 158 allottees received allotments in excess of $1,040, such excess being $1,600.69. Of the 15,784 persons enrolled under the original Creek agreement, approved March 1, 1901 (31 Stat. L., 861), and the supplemental Creek agreement, approved June 30, 1902 (32 Stat. L., 500), who may be called "agreement Indians," 11,263 of them have re- ceived allotments of 160 acres of land of less value than the standard value of $1,040, and additional payments, in varying amounts, to each, but totaling $1,826,633, will be required to equalize their allotments on the basis of $800, as now suggested, and not $900 as proposed in the bill. Of the 2,920 persons enrolled under the subsequent acts of Congress approved March 3, 1905 (33 Stat. L., 1048), and April 26, 1906 (34 Stat. L., 137), who may be termed "new borns," 2,858 of them have received allotments, of 160 acres of land, but 6t less value than $800, for whom it will take $1,116,940 to bring their allotments up to a value of $800 each, thus making a total amount of $2,943,573 required to equalize all Creek allotments to the value of $800 each, which amount subtracted from $3,885,054.78 of Creek tribal funds will leave a balance of $941,481 available for current Creek tribal expenses. However, I suggest that of the $2,943,573 required to equalize all Creek allotments to the value of $800, that $1,116,940 required to equalize the allotments of "new-born" children be set apart and withheld from pay- ment at this time until it is determined judicially that "new-born" children are entitled equally with "agi'eement Indians" to have their allotmej^ts equalized upon the same basis as "agreement Indians." If distribution be made only to the "agree- ment Indians" upon the basis of $800, as suggested, and under the terms of this bill, there will remain in the Treasury sufficient funds, $1,116,940, to answer an award of equal amount to "new-born" children and a balance of $941,481 to meet current 570 INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. Creek tribal expenses. The following table will show the amounts required on the basis of $800 instead of $900 as proposed in the bill: For 7,277 citizens by blood $1, 244, 500. 00 For 3,986 freedmen: 582, 133. 00 Total required for 11,263 citizens by blood and freedmen (ex- cluding new borns) $1) 826, 633. 00 Total required for 2,858 "new borns" citizens by blood and freedmen 1, 116, 940. 00 Total required for 14,121 "agreement Indians" and 2,858 "new borns " 2, 943, 573. 00 Total amount in Treasury 3, 885, 054. 78 Balance for current expenses 941, 481. 00 The question arises as to whether the United States guaranteed to all Creek allot-i, tees, including the newborn children, an allotment of land of the standard value of $1,040, as claimed by the Creek Tribe. The original Creek agreement with the United States, negotiated March 8, 1900, approved March 1, 1901, ratified by the Creek Council May 25, 1901, and proclaimed by the President June 25, 1901, section 2 thereof (31 Stat. L., 661) after providing for the appraisal of lands belonging to the Creek Tribe of Indians in the Indian Territory at their true value, excluding only lawful improvements on lands in actual cultiva- tion, pro^dded further in section 3 thereof for an allotment of all tribal lands among the citizens of the Creek Tribe so as to give each an equal share of the whole in value, as nearly as may be in manner as follows: One hundred and sixty acres of land valued at $6.50 per acre shall constitute the standard value of an allotment, and shall be the measure for the equalization of values. This original Creek agreement remained in force about one year, when tt was super- seded by the supplemental Creek agreement approved June 30, 1902 (32 Stat. L., 500), which was ratified by the Creek National Council on July 26, 1902, and pro- claimed by the President on August 8, 1902, whereof section 2 changed the method of appraisement of the lands at their true value, as provided in section 2 of the original agreement, which was amended to read that all lands "shall be appraised at not to exceed six dollars and fifty cents per acre, excluding only lawful improvements on lands in actual cultivation." Section 3 of the supplemental agreement amended paragraph 2 of section 3 of the original agreement to read: ' If any citizen select lands, the appraised value of which is $6.50 per acre, he shall not receive any further distribution of property or funds of the tribe until all other citizens have received lands and moneys^equal in value to his allotment." Creek tribal officials sought the enactment by Congress of the act of March 3, 1905 (33 Stat. L., 1048), under which 2,099 minor children, both blood and freedmen, bom after May 25, 1901, and prior to March 4, 1905, and living on said latter date, were enrolled, and the later act of April 26, 1906 (34 Stat. L., 137) under which were enrolled 821 minor children, both blood and freedmen, living on March 4, 1906, whose parents had been enrolled, making a total enrollment of 2,920 newborn children enrolled under the above acts. The Creek tribal officials claim that at the time they sought the enactment by Congress of the two above acts enrolling the newborn children, they had no knowledge of the exact number of Creek citizens enrolled under the original Creek agreements, nor of the amount of land already allotted to them. Believing that there would be a surplus of unallotted tribal lands, and that all of their children were equally entitled as allottees, they sought the enactment of the above acts enrolling their newborn children born after May 25, 1901 , up to and including March 4, 1906, numbering 2,920 minor chil- dren, of whom 1,135 are Creek freedmen, newborns, minors. Had the enrollment been completed and sto]>ped with the enrollment of minor children living on May 25, 1901, there would have been sufficient lands and tribal funds to equalize all allotments on the basis of $1,040, as provided in the original and supplemental agreements, to the 15,784 persons enrolled under the original and supplemental agreements. An additional enrollment of 2,920 new-born minor children, under the subsequent acts of March 3, 1905, and April 26, 1906, produced the deficiency, of which the Creeks now complain, and charge that the United States is liable to make good the deficiency, and ask that jurisdiction be conferred upon the Court of Claims to hear and determine whether the United States guaranteed that every Creek allottee, including new-born children, should have an allotment of the standard value of $1,040, and whether the United States is liable to the amount of $3,028,878.17, required to equalize all Creek allotments on that bavsis. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 571 To settle the controversy, whicli has arisen at several sessions of Congress, I offer no objection to a reference of the matter to the Court of Claims for adjudication, and as this is a tribal and not an individual claim, the Creek tribal attorney, who is capable, should alone appear on behalf of the Creek Tribe. I suggest that the words "principal chief" be inserted in lieu of the word ''governor," appearing in line 19, Sage 2, of the bill, as the proper designation to be given the executive of the Creek [ation, and that after the words "Creek Nation," appearing near the beginning of line 20, page 2, of the bill, there be inserted this language: "And the Attorney General shall appear on behalf of the Government of the Umted States and defend the action herein authorized." I suggest further, that in lieu of the words "subsequent agree- ments," appearing in line 7, page 1, of the bill, there be substituted the words the supplemental Creek agreement approved June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and two (Thirty-second Statutes, page five hundred)." Inasmuch as section 34 of the Creek agreement, approved March 1, 1901 (31 Stat. L., 661), provided that "the United States shall pay all expenses incident to * * * allotments of land made under the provisions of this agreement," it is beUeved that the expense of equalizing Creek allotments on a mone> basis, which will be in Ueu of land, should be borne by the United States, and it is suggested that immediately after the figures $1,040, occurring in line 6, page 2, of the bill, there be inserted the following language: "And the sum of $10,000 is hereby appropriated out of any moneys in the United States Treasury not otherwise appropriated to pay all the expenses incident to the equalization of Creek allotments under this provision." To afford proper protection to restricted allottees from imposition, I suggest that the bill be amended by adding thereto the following provision: "That all payments hereunder to restricted Creek allottees shall be made by the United States Indian superintendent, Union Agency, Muskogee, Okla., under the same supervision as is now exercised over the payment of individual funds accruing from the sale of restricted lands of allottees." With these suggested amendments, I urge the enactment of the bill into law. Very truly, yours, A. A. Jones, First Assistant Secretary. Hon. John H. Stephens, Chairman Committee on Indian Affairs, House of Representatives . Mr. Allen. The Creek Indians have begged Congress at every ses- sion for years to give them what they are legally and justly entitled to receive. They have not been able to do that, and so they went out and employed other lawyers, and contracts have been entered into with various attorneys, none of which have been approved, and Mr. Bentley, as I understand it, is a beneficiary to a large extent m one of the contracts. Mr. Bentley. If you will pardon me, not in reference to any enrollment. Mr. Allen. You are in reference to the equalization money. Senator Owen. Is that true, Mr. Bentley? , ,.x« Mr. Bentley. It positively is not true. I am mterested in the dit- ference between the amount of money now in the Treasury and the amount that might come to them. Senator Clapp. Would you get a dollar Mr. Bentley. Not one cent. Senator Clapp (continuing). In case these 62 were put on the rolls to-day '( Mr. Bentley. Not one penny. Senator Clapp. That is the decisive thing. Mr. Allen. I do not claim you will. Senator Lane. Wait a moment. I understood you to say he would not, and that would have something to do with our decision here, if he is interested in these contracts which you are talking about. You' intimated he was, and he says he is not. 572 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Allen. Let me explain that. The Creeks were persuaded sev- eral years ago that Congress was about to pay out the money iJJ^the United States Treasury to their credit on a per capita basis. They then organized the Creek Alliance Society, or something of that kind, and attorneys were employed — Mr. Bentley is interested in that con- tract, I think — by which it was agreed that these attorneys should get this money for them for equalization purposes on a percentage basis, bring suit in the Court of Claims agamst the United States for enough money to finish equalizing the allotments— between $800 and $1,040 — and that is the contract I understand he is interested in. Senator Clapp. You do not understand that would be involved in the proposed amendment? • Mr. Allen. Any blocking of this legislation, I think Senator Clapp. No; you do not understand me. Mr. Allen (continuing) . Would inure to the benefit of these people. Senator Clapp. Supposing we put on this bill the 62 names and provide for giving them the $1,040 apiece, you do not understand that Mr. Bentley will get anything out of that? Mr. Allen. I do not understand that he will get anything out of any funds now to the credit of the Creeks. Senator Owen. But the point he makes is that if Mr. Bentley blocks this legislation it makes it more necessary to employ him to unblock it. Senator Clapp. But Mr. Bentley does not seem to be trying to block this. Senator Owen. I do not know what Mr. Bentley 's attitude is, but if he insists on putting two things together, one part of it being sub- ject to a point of order, it will defeat the whole matter, and it does accomplish that purpose. Senator Clapp. But when I explained here that we proposed in this very bill to provide for these 62, 1 understood Mr. Bentley to take the position that that was better than to chance a point of order on your amendment by yoking the two together. Senator Townsend. I hold in my hand a report marked *' Senate Report 7625," signed by W. C. Pollock, assistant attorney Senator Owen. That is not a Senate report. Senator Townsend. It is marked Senate No. 7625 Senator Owen. Those were papers published without the authority of the committee, and done at the request of one member here, at the instance of attorneys representing this citizenship group. Senator Townsend. Assuming that, is it a correct report of Mr. Pollock? Is this a correct report? Do you know that, Mr. Meritt? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; that is a correct report of the department. Senator Townsend. However it comes here, I am reading from a paper that is marked a report and signed by W. C. Pollock, assistant attorney, and in that he gives the list of persons approved and enti- tled to enrollment in the Creek Nation, but whose names were omitted because no application was made or by reason of a mistake or oversight. He mentions 62 names here. BLe gives their history— quite a little sketch of each one, I think, although I wish to say to Mr. Bentley that I do not find any of these old men Siat he talks of in here. Mr. Bentley. I understood there were some of them. Senator Townsend. They are all young men. One woman had been entitled INDIAN" APPEOPKIATION BILL. 57B Mr. Bentley. There should be the name of two iii there. They may never have gotten included in this list, but they are very old men. Senator Townsend. What I was getting at was if the department knows whether that report of Mr. Pollock's represents the correct situation with reference to these Indians. He says here that these are Creeks entitled apparently to go on the rolls. Mr. Allen. I would be glad for them to go on the rolls if the Com- missioner of Indian Affairs finds that thev are entitled Senator Townsend. I do not want them to go on if they are not entitled. Senator Owen. The Creek authorities are willing to have the commissioner say whether they are really entitled. Mr. Pollock thinks they are entitled. As to the roll of 52 which we mentioned a while ago^ there are two duphcations on that roll, men who are already on the roll; that is an obvious error, but that roll of 62 ought to be subject to inspection by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs so as to prevent those who are already on the roll being duplicated. Senator Townsend. I do not think this is the way to legislate, to put these names on here, calling them by name, t do not want to do that. But here is sufficient evidence for me to believe that the roll ought to be opened so far as these people are concerned, and this Government held responsible for them, and I think it ought to be held responsible for them. Mr. Allen. If you wiH pardon me, I think Mr. Ballinger, who is standing here, has in his pocket or in his possession several hundred names which he claims are entitled to go on this roll. That is the danger of a wholesale opening of our rolls. Mr. Ballinger. If you will pardon me, those parties which you speak of and their claims are indentical with those embraced in that report, and the list has been duly filed, with a statement of their cases, wfth the commissioner's office, and, as I understand, they will be inquired into. n . Senator Clapp. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that we are all agreed here that the 52 should be provided for, with a provision for review by the commissioner. And the only question would strike me as to whether it should all be included in one amendment or put m two amendments. . . Senator Owen. I think it would be better to put it m one amend- ment. Senator Clapp. You do ? Senator Owen. Yes; as to this 52. i, i j i Senator Clapp. No; I mean whether those two items should be included in your amendment, and the whole thing covered by one amendment. , , j. ^r, \. Senator Owen. I do not think they ought to go togeiher, because there is a possibihty of a point of order being made against it. Senator Clapp. That is just the point I am making. 1 think it is agreed here that the 52 and the 62 with the correction should be pro- vided for. Now, the question is whether that provision should be a part of your amendment or a separate amendment. It does seem to me there ought to be a separate amendment. Senator Owen. I think so. 574 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. Senator Townsend. I want to ask you this, Mr. Commissioner: I see here under the same class with different tribes, under Exhibit 6, for instance, there are the names of 281 ; under Exhibit 5 there are 22; and under Exhibit 4 there are 7; under Exhibit 3 there are 125; and under Exhibit 2 these 62 that we have named ; and under Exhibit 1 there are 8. Is it possible for you to have that matter investigated and the report made to Congress as to what you think about those names, whether they ought to be enrolled among the tribes or not ? Commissioner Sells. Yes. Senator Townsend. How long do you think it would take to determine that? Commissioner Sells. Mr. Meritt says he thinks it would be about 60 days, or thereabouts. Senator Townsend, I am perfectly willmg to allow this matter to go if we can have the assurance of the department that we are going to have a report on this proposition instead of allowing it to rest here as it has for years, in order that we may determine whether we owe any obligation to these Indians or not, and if so, whether we ought not to pay it. Commissioner Sells. We are very agreeable to speedy action upon it. Senator Owen. Let us have an understanding, then, with the commissioner that he will examine the matter and give a definite report on it. Commissioner Sells. You may have that understanding if it is desired that it be done. Senator Townsend. In order to get the sense of the committee, I make the motion that the commissioner make this investigation and report. Commissioner Sells. Speedily. Senator Townsend. As soon as possible. Senator Owen. Question? The Chairman. The question is on the motion of the Senator from Michigan, that the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs be authorized and directed to investigate the status as to whether or not there are any Indians in Oklahoma who ought to be enrolled Senator Townsend. No; I want to have reference to these reports of Mr. Pollock's on these Indians who have been presented here, whether those Indians are entitled to go on the rolls. The Chairman. With especial reference only to the Indians who are mentioned in Judge Pollock's report here. (The motion was agreed to.) The Chairman. The question is now upon the amendment pro- posed by the Senator from Oldahoma, Calendar No. 110. Senator Lane. You said you wanted to make a talk on that, Mr. Ballinger. Is there any objection to doing it at this time? The Chairman. Do you request that Mr. BaUinger be heard? Senator Lane. Yes; if he will not be too long. Mr. Ballinger. I will be brief. INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 575 STATEMENT OF MR. WEBSTER BALLINGER, ATTORNEY AT LAW, WASHINGTON, D. C. Mi\ Chairman, I think the committee may change its request for information a little bit if you will allow me just a few minutes time in which to call your attention to these matters. The facts have not been fully nor properly brought to your attention in connection with this Creek situation. The list of 62 referred to here is only a part of those who are in identically the same class. Mr. Pollock, who con- ducted this investigation, was engaged in it only for a month or two, and before he concluded the investigation he was called back to Washington. This is only a hst of those Mr. Pollock found. Others possessing identical rights were not investigated and included in this report, and I submit that it would not be fair to limit it absolutely to those in the report. Now, gentlemen of the committee, in view of the statements made by Mr. Meritt — I am sure Mr. Meritt would not intentionally make a misrepresentation — I want the committee to know, and I am going to speak now absolutely from the records, as to how this situation was brought about. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Ballinger, may I ask what statement of mine you referred to ? Mr. Ballinger. Your statement that there were 52 of 62, and further*, your representation that legislation upon this matter had been prevented by the attorney representing these people. Mr. Chairman, I take pride in the fact that probably if it had not been for my efforts in behalf of these people they would have been excluded. I have worked for them, I have been here incessantly, and I believe I have performed an honest, conscientious duty. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, I would like to state that I did not have Mr. Ballinger in mind when I referred to the fact that there were certain attorneys holding contracts in regard to this Creek equalization, and who had prevented the settlement of this question for several years. I did not have Mr. Ballinger m mind in connection with this matter. Mr. Ballinger is representing certain Indians who claim they have a right to enrollment in the Five Civilized Tribes, and I have never had Mr. Ballinger in mind in connection with the Creek equalization. Senator Owen. How many does he represent ? Mr. Meritt. I would prefer that Mr. Ballinger answer that ques- Senator Owen. How many do you represent, Mr. Ballinger? Mr. Ballinger. I can not say offhand, but I represent probably more than 2,000 in the Five Civilized Tribes. The Chairman. Is your argument going to be directed toward the fact that we should cause the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to inves- tigate the status of 2,000 people? . .i . . . Mr Ballinger. No; but what I am asking is that before you provide for this distribution of $800 per head you know the facts so that it can not be said in the future that your action was taken prematurely. Let me call your attention to the fact that this very condition now confronting you and existing m the Creek Nation with reference to their property affairs has alt been brought about by amendments adopted to Indian appropriation bills hurriedly and 576 INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. without a proper consideration of the matter, and subsequently and when Congress learned the facts it was then too late to correct them. Let me call your attention to the fact that under the agreement with these Indians of 1901 there were ample property to have taken care of those contemplated. But in 1905 the representatives of the Creek Nation came to Washington, composed of and representing that class which had received all that they could possible receive under the existing law, and asked Congress to include their new-born children, born subsequent to the date when they could be enrolled, and up to March 4, 1905. And Congress, without knowing the facts, included such a provision in its legislation. Senator Owen. I object to a statement by Mr. Ballinger that these people had received all that they could receive under that treaty, when confessedly they had not received about $6,000,000, in order to equahze the value of those certificates. Now, Mr. Ballinger, when stating facts to the committee, wants to confine himself to the facts. Mr. Ballinger. Senator, as you put it, you are correct, and as I put it I was correct. The situation was this, and I repeat my previous statement that the gentlemen who came here — that is, thje Indians themselves who came here — and asked for that legislation, every mother's son of them, had received $1,040 worth of land, and Congress acted upon their requests. Now, the result was that you added to the list of Indians the newborn children and correspondingly dimin- ished the individual property rights. Then they came back here — again the same gentlemen came back here in 1906 — and secured the inclusion of another amendment by the Senate committee without a full knowledge of the situation in the act of April 26, 1906, enrolling further the children born up to March 4, 1906. Then the deficit occurred. There was not property to go around. And if you adopt this amendment you will produce another situation that is equally bad and add to a complicated condition instead of adjusting it, and it is for that purpose that I ask you to hear me in order that you may know the facts, so that you may act intelligently and in the light of those facts. I am not here to try to prevent those people from getting their money. God knows they ought to have had it long ago. But this situation has been brought about by piecemeal legislation; by an amendment here and an amendment there, inserted at the behest of some interested party and no proper consideration at any time of the entire subject, so that the men acting upon the matter could have had the entire situation in mind. That is the point I want to call to your attention, the situation now. Now, whajt is it ? By section 2 of the act of April 26, 1906 (34 Stat. L., 137), it was provided that the work of preparing the citizenship and freedmen rolls of the Choctaw, Chickasaw, Cherokee, Greek, and Seminole Tribes should be fully completed on or before March 4. 1907, and that the Secretary should have no jurisdiction to add to said rolls the name of any person after said date. When that bill was under consideration in the House, inquiry was made of the gentlemen in charge as to whether or not this work could not be completed by March 4, 1907, and assurances were given each and every member that it would be fuUy completed by that date. The bill came to the Senate, and the Senate in addition to the work the department was required by existing law to do, added the provi- INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. 57 '7 sion. for the enrollment of the new-born children, which meant a great amount of additional work to be performed. ,v^ What was the result? Under date of January 10, 1907, the then Secretary of the Interior advised the then chairman of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs that the enrollment and allotment work could not be completed by March 4, 1 907, and that it was necessary that Congress extend the time at least one year. In this report (S. Doc. No. 1139, 62d Cong., 3d sess., p. 131) the Secretary of the Interior said: The department concurs in the views of the Indian Office. Unless the time is extended, many persons entitled to enrollment will not be enrolled. The Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes and the commissioner have been for years taking testimony and rendering decisions in cases involving complicated questions of citizenship in these tribes, and some of the cases have not yet reached the department. While the department has disposed of most of the citizenship cases which have come before it, it apparently can not give due consideration to all the cases still pending and to be submitted by the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes and the Indian Office within the time prescribed by the second section of the act of April 26, 1906 (35 Stat, 137). Now, what happened ? When the Secretary's report, dated March 10, 1907, was received by the chairman of the Comniittee on Indian Affairs the Indian appropriation bill was under consideration by the committee. Accordingly a provision was inserted in the bill granting an extension of one year i.n which to complete the enrollment work. When the bill came before the Senate a Senator interposed a point of order against the amendment on the ground that it cnanged existing law and the point of order was sustained by the chair (Cong. Rec, vol. 41, pt. 3, 59th Cong., 2d sess., Feb. 7, 1907, p. 2415). Senator Townsend. Who did object to that? Mr. Ballingek. Senator Long of Kansas then interposed the ob- jection. I will not comment further. He subsequently appeared as an associate of Mi\ McMurray in his contracts with these tribes. Representative Davenport. He was not responsible for doing that. He did that at my request, representing the Cherokee Nation. Mr. Ballinger. I differ with my friend from Oklahoma; he is mistaken in the man. He sent his letter, which appears in the Record, to Senator McCumber. Representative Davenport. I sent it both to Senator McCuniber and Senator Long. Both of them were on their feet at the same time, and Senator Clapp took part in the colloquy. Mr. Ballinger. Your objection was that there should be no pro- vision inserted allowing further apphcations for citizenship. Representative Davenport. I would not want you to make any reflection upon Senator Long that his subsequent employment had anythine: to do with the matter. ^ ■, ^ ^ ikr. Ballinger. Under date of March 1, 1907, the department transmitted a communication to the President of the Senate m which the Senate was advised as to the condition of the enrollment 1 March 2 1907, the President of the Senate was further advised concerning' the number of cases pending before the clepartment. Under date of March 4, 1907, the Secretary reported to the Presi- dent of the Senate (S. Doc. No. 390, 59th Cong., 2d sess.) as follows: In further response to Senate resolution dated February 28 1907 relative to the numbCT^f indfrn^d freedmen enrollment cases pending before the Commissioner 578 INDIAN APPKOPKIATION BILL. to the Five Civilized Tribes on February 25, 1907, also in the office of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs on review and before the department I have the honor to advise you that since my report of the 2d instant the department has received on March 2, 168 cases; March 3, 192 cases; March 4, 141 cases, making a total of 501 cases, aggre- gating 1,549 cases received by the Secretary since February 25, 1907, and making a total of 2,023 cases for examination and decision after February 25, and on or before March 4, 1907. In some cases there was but one applicant, and in some cases th^re were 50 applicants in a case, and 2,023 cages were received by the department for consideration on and after February 25, 1907. The rolls closed on March 4, 1907, or seven days thereafter. Then what happened ? Many complaints having been made to the department and to Congress that a large number oi full bloods, minor and orphan children, incompetent Indians, and other members of the tribes had failed, by reason of the closing of the rolls before the enroll- ment work was completed and for other causes, to secure enrollment, and thereby secure allotments of land and other property rights as members of either of said tribes, Mr. J. W. Howell, an assistant attor- ney in the oflSce of the Secretary of the Interior, was, in the fall of 1908, instructed by the then Secretary of the Interior to make a thor- ough investigation of the matter and report thereon. And I want to add one word with reference to Mr. HoweU. I think the commissioner and everyone in the department will agree with me that he is one of the most conscientious and one of the most careful, painstaking, and eflGicient officers or employees of that department. The report shows that, as it is the most comprehensive report ever made upon the subject. Representative Carter. I should like to ask ^Ir. BalUnger a question. Mr. Ballinger. Certainly. Representative Carter. Did you ever know of IVIr. Howell render- ing a decision against an apphcant or writing up a decision against an applicant ? Mr. Ballinger. Why, he has written hundreds, and probably thousands. Representative Carter. Will you name just one case and let it go in the record ? Mr. Ballinger. Mr. Carter, you ask me offhand with reference to a matter involving thousands of cases. I can not name a particular case right now, but I can go to the record and find many. He did not decide cases. He merely prepared reports or decisions in cases for review by his superior officers. The record will disclose his action in each case. Representative Carter. He wrote the • recommendation about them to the Secretary. Mr. Ballinger. Under date of March 3, 1909, Mr. Howell sub- mitted a report, which appears in Senate Document 1139, Sixty- second Congress, third session, pages 103-282, inclusive. In speak- ing of the condition of the enrolhnent work on March 4, 1907, the date Avhen the roUs were arbitrarily closed by operation of law, Mr. Howell (id., p. 130) says: With the extra work imposed by the act itself in connection with the enrollment of the newborn children, it became absolutely impossible for the department to complete the work within the time prescribed, and to-day it may be said with per- fect truthfulness, that the word "complete" falls far short of describing the condition of the enrollment work and the citizenship rolls as of March 4, 1907. INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. 579 • , Mr. Howell cites numerous instances in which large numbers of Indians were deprived of their rights by erroneous rulings made during the closing hours of the enrollment work and when there was not time in which to properly consider the cases; in one instance (id., p. 130) where 500 children lost their rights by an error committed by the commission and discovered too late to be corrected. W. C. Pollock, a law clerk in the office of the Secretary, investi- gated a number of claims of minors and incompetents who had not been enrolled and, under date of January 15, 1912, submitted a report to the Secretary, accompanying which is a list of approxi- mately 500 full bloods, minor and orphan children and others, who should have been enrolled but who were not. The Senator inquired why the names of older members did not appear in this list, or why that list contained the names of minors largely. Mr. Pollock was instructed to investigate only the claims of the children. That is why only the children and minors appear in that report. And you will find the instructions of the Secretary under which he made the investigation in the same report. Assistant Secretary Adams, in a report dated April 22, 1912 (id. pp. 2-13, inc., at p. 12), reported that there were 2,726 cases which should be reconsidered. These cases include several claimants to the case, the average being three persons to each case, making a total of 7,178 claimants whose cases Mr. Adams recommended be reconsidered. Now, what is the situation ? Not only are these persons enumerated LQ Mr. Pollock's report relating to the Creek Tribe entitled to con- sideration, but these other Indians, whose cases were in the depart- ment by March 4, 1907, but which have never been adjudicated or considered. Would it be opening the rolls to turn to those cases and adjudicate them on the existing record? Would that be unfair? Congress is the guardian of these Indians. In common fairness, in the performance of a conscientious duty, will you deny them any consideration of their cases when the faitoe to consider them was because of the law of Congress prohibiting the consideration of these cases after March 4, 1907. In common fairness wiU you not give them some consideration ? They are your wards, and will you not deal with them equitably? In addition to these 62 there are the others whose cases were not considered. The records are complete. All I ask you, as their attorney, is to have them adjudicated upon the existing records. Now, Senators, in addition to those there are, I should say, probably 100, and perhaps 150 full-blood Creek Indians and minor children, some of whom are orphans, not enrolled. Nobody made an appHca- tion for them. Nobody cared about anything them. I have filed in the Indian Office Hsts of probably 100 or 150 of that class of people, and I am asking you, when you investigate these matters to let the department inquire into those cases as well as the cases unadjudicated, together with the names on the lists I have filed in the office, and report upon aU, and then you wiU have done substantial justice to these people. And I ask that you go that far, and go that far. Sena- tors before it is too late to do anything for them, before you have disbursed all their money, and before there is nothing left to do any- thing for them with. ri^ 39746— PT 2—14 11 580 INDIAN APPBOPRIATION BILL. Senator Clapp. How many Creeks do you claim are included out- side of the lists we h-ave had under consideration ? Mr. Ballinger. Senator, I can not state that accujately, but ap- proximately there are from 750 to 1,000 who are entitled. Then there is one otlier suggestion, Senator, your question leads up to, and that is in relation to the shares they should receive. You have been talking about $1,040, which some one suggested would be more than these children and others to be enrolled would each be en- titled to. Senators, all those who have been enrolled received land that merely for purposes of allotment received an artificial and ficti- tious valuation. Land that was worth $30, $40 and more per acre was allotted on a basis of $6.50 an acre. Land worth $5 to $10 an acre* was allotted upon a basis of $2 or $1.50, as per the classification, each Indian and freedman was entitled to, $1,040 worth of land, ac- cording to the classification, or if he did not take all in land he was entitled to the difference in money. Every one of these Indians that are on the rolls have received 160 acres of land that in actual value is worth $1,040, and in some instances $500,000. Therefore it would be manifestly unjust to these people to give them but $1,040 worth of property, and to give to those heretofore enrolled not only the lands which they already have, but additional pa5maents so as to bring their values up to $1,040. Senators, this is a big question. It is a question which ought to be considered caref uUy. You ought to know definitely what you are do- ing, and it i\^ a matter, while I hope that some relief can be given to these people, and given to them speedily, I trust before you do any- thing with it you will delve into it and know definitely and certainly what you are doing. It is the only way you can proceed fairly. Senator Owen. I should like to ask Mr. BaUinger if he did" not, be- fore the committee of the House, on May 17, 1912, urge a bill propos- ing to pay $800 to these same Creek Indians ? Mr. Ballinger. I did, Senator, but if you will examine the then proposed bill you wiU find a provision in that bill for the ascertain- ment of these people and their enrollment. Senator Owen. Yes; and taking care of the attorneys also. I do not wish to impute any blame to the attorney, but I just mention that as a part of the bill which was advocated by you at that time. Mr. Ballinger. Senator, I want to be perfectly candid with the committee. I have worked hard for some of these people for a num- ber of years. I have contracts with some of them Senator Owen. With how many Indians have you contracts? How many do you really represent ? Mr. Ballinger. I have in the Five Tribes contracts with more than 2,000. Senator Owen. How many more than 2,000 — 3,000 or 4,000^ Mr. Ballinger. Originally I had contracts in the Choctaw and Chickasaw Tribes with 15,000 people. That is, when they would write to me about their cases JL would take a contract. I invest! gated their cases, and eliminated the greater majority of them. Senator Owen. When did you eliminate them? Mr. Ballinger. Oh, they have been eliminated for severaJl years. Senator Owen. Two years ago you said you represented 15,000 Indians before the committee. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 581 Mr. Ballinger. I think not. That may have been under ;my old contracts, but I do not now represent more th^n 3,000 clalmant^ altogether. If you will examine this same document you will find a list of cases briefed by me from the records, and certified copies of the records included in them. My object was to present a prima facie c,ase that would entitle them to some kind of consideration. With reference to the contracts, Senator, I want to add this: I have repjesented thege people, some of them since 1906. From the day I commenced to the present time I have never received oi^e dollar directly or indirectly for my services. And in addition to that Senator Owen. Your services to whom ? Mr. Ballinger. To these people — these claimants. Senator Owen. That is, on this particular Creek equahzation case? Mr., Ballinger. No; all the claimants I represent in the Five Tribes. Senator Owen. You mean you never collected anything from the people who employed you to represent them in citizenship cases ? Mr. Ballinger. Absolutely not a dollar — not a dollar have I received. Senator Townsend. You do not stand alone in the reference to representing Indians, nor did you beffin the system. That has been in existence a good many years. Men have had contracts with Indians as their attorneys and have collected their fees. Mr. Ballinger. This is my first experience, and I expect it will be my last one. Now, let me add just this, Senators: In the prosecution of these claims I carried two or three cases to the Supreme Court of the United States, and I prosecuted numerous suits m the local courts in Oklahoma. I have spent myself, and others who have assisted me, nearly $50,000 in the prosecution of the claims of these people — not the Creeks alone, but all of them — and when you know tne facts with reference to their rights you will do justice to them, and when you do do justice to them, Senators, you will do justice to me in the question of my fee. I will leave my case in your hands, the same as I leave the case of my clients. Senator Owen. In commenting on Mr. Ballinger's representing these people I had no intention to impute to him any fault in repre- senting as many people as he pleases, nor how many contracts. Only I think the record should show what the interest of the speaker is, so as to have the record show what the case is. I wish to make a statement with regard to these citizenship cases, because this is, after all, a case of paying these Creeks the moneys which have been so long due them; but it has been diverted into a question of citizenship. The Congress of the United States sent the Dawes Commission to the Indian Territory in 1893, 21 years ago, for the purpose df getting those tribes to agree to distribute their prop- erty among their own citizenship by the allotment plan and mth,a view to establishing a State of the Union. The commission went down in 1893, discussed this matter with the various t^bes, and the tribes were reluctant to change their method of life. They M^ere not willing to give up their old method of tribal holdings. They regarded it^s a sort of religion. They were very much opposed to it, and the Goyernment .made no. progress until finally, in 1896, a violent step 582 INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BILL. was taken by the Government; ignoring tlie treaties with the ^^^^ Tribes and declaring that the Dawes Commission should without delay take the old tribal rolls and make up a roll of the citizens of the Five Tribes. They began that work about July 1, 1896. In 1897 a further act of Congress was passed authorizing the commis- sion to purge the rolls and to take the records of the tribal authori- ties into their own hands and complete these rolls. In 1898 Congress went still further and authorized the Dawes Commission to divide the land up among the owners of it. The Indian people, seeing that the Government of the United States was determined to ignore their treaties, break theh treaties to pieces and change the existing order, yielded; the Choctaws and Chickasaws first bv making the agreement of 1897, which was con- firmed by Congressmen June 28, 1898, at the time when the Curtis Act was passed, the Curtis Act being the act which practically destroyed the tribal government utterly, doing away with their legislatures, doing away with their courts. The courts had been done away with the year before, 1897, but confirming that act. And doing away with their executive department, and leaving nothing but a mere skeleton. The chief, and in some cases the tribal legislature, was left^but not to be reelected. They could not have any more elections lawfully, and practically the tribes were dismantled of their governniental powers. The tribes felt that very sensitively, and they desired to have the right to make up their own rolls, because they knew their own people and could identify their own people with a greater degree of certainty. At least, they thought so, and they urged that view, but they were not permitted to make up their own rolls. The Dawes Commission was charged with this authority, and the Dawes Commission exercised it. And immediately there came a flood of people from the ends of the world demanding the right to be admitted into the tribal membership, because the lands owned by these tribes amounted to a very large value, probably $100,000,000 altogether. So that citizenship in the Choctaw Nation, for example, was probablv worth $4,000, $5,000, $6,000, $7,000, or $8,000, and if a man chose to exercise his right as an allottee judiciously and get it upon some particularly valuable piece of land, the land might be worth $40 or $50 an acre instead of the average price which was used as a basis of distribution. So that the question of citizenship became a matter of great moment as a means of acquiring a large amount of property in these tribes. Congress had passed an act, and a very wise act, in 1898, declaring that no person who had not previously to June 28, 1898, established bona fide residence in the tribe where he claimed citizenship should not be considered by the Dawes Commission. Because of that a part of those who were admittedly kin to myself were excluded from citi- zenship in the Cherokee Nation. For instance, the children of my uncle's wife, she having come to Virginia and having had children there, part of her children moving to the Territory and the other part remaining in Virginia, one-half of the family was put on the roll and the other half left off the roll under that act of Congress. I repre- sented them as their attorney. I began representing them when the roUs J&rst began to be made up. I went before the Dawes Commission and I presented the reasons why they should be admitted in 1896. The Dawes Commission turned down part of that family and admit- INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 583 ^t^ P^^^ ^^ them. As to those that were turned down, I pursued that by an appeal to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and by an appeal to the Secretary of the Interior, and when they confirmed the previous judgment of the Dawes Commission I then appealed to the Attorney General of the United States. Then I appealed back again to the Interior Department, ajid then I appealed to Congress, and I got an act through Congress, but did not get it through in very good form, and the commissioner turned it down again and the Secretary turned it down, and they never did get on. But I had 11 years in which to fight that fight, and I have fought it from one point to another, and finally lost out as to half of that family because they had not estabhshed residence within the country where they were claiming the right of citizenship prior to the date fixed by Congress. The Chairman. But they had the opportunity to estabhsh it, of course ? Senator Owen. They had the opportunity, and for 11 years, from 1896 to March 4, 1907, that battle waged over this question of deter- mining who these citizens were. Now, the tribes had a complete set of rolls of those whom they recognized. It was easy to elimi- nate them. The Dawes Commission would take a roU, go into a tribe, and call upon people to identify themselves according to that roll, and when they identified themselves, being nothing to prove that the roll itself was fraudulent, they were admitted. Now, the Dawes Commission was to hear those cases about which there was dispute, and people came from everywhere, people partly of negro blood and partly of mixed blood of all sorts, to demand the right of enrollment. The Dawes Commission carried this on for many years, and appeal after appeal was made from this commission to the Com- missioner of Indian Affairs, the Secretary of the Interior, and to the Attorney General, and on some technicality or other would be sent back to the Dawes Commission to be heard over again and over again, until finally Congress being worn out with this controversy deter- miaed to conclude it on March 4, 1907, and stipulated in the act that the Secretary of the Interior should not after that day put anybody on the rolls, that the people who occupied the citizenship of the Five Tribes were entitled to their peace, and that after 10 years of controversy over the citizenship question that the question ought to be closed. It has now been closed seven years. There were 52 persons who were reported by the Interior Depart- ment as really entitled, but what I want to call the attention of 'the committee to is, that the most abundant opportunity was afforded during 10 years' controversy — or 11 years ol controversy — to enroll anybody who was entitled to be enrolled. And I want to call the attention oi the committee to the fact that while it was true that withtQ the last few days within which the Secretary of the Interior might put anybody upon the rolls, that they confined everv case ap- proved by the Dawes Commission, and enrolled those people without any turther review, not cutting them out, which might have been done if the Interior Department received them in time. The Dawes Commission might have been reversed in a number of cases, but as it was, the Interior Department simply approved the finding of the Dawes Commission, whether it was. lor or against the tribe, so that even those who complained that they had no hearing, had had 11 584 INDIAN APPROPRIATION ^iLt,. years to be heard in, and had their cases heard l^y the Dawes Com- mission at least once, and determined adversely by the Dawes Com- mission. So that if the matter is ever to be terminated the time had arrived after 1 1 years to terminate the question ol hearing those rolls. Obviously, if we should open those rolls now, and saying that others should be omitted, there would be another group coming up right away and saying, ''Here, we are entitled.'^ We never would g6t through. It has been 21 years since the Dawes Commission was sent down to this country to divide that property and determine the ques- tion of distribution. It has had a baneful effect upon the attitude of many of those people toward the Government of the United States, because the Government overrode their sentiments, theh patriotic sentiments, with regard to their own Kttle government. The Government of the United States, by its superior power, took from them the right of self-government, destroyed theii* old method of holding in common, and the Governmeut of the United States forced its will upon those people and compelled them to allot. The Government of the United States denied those people the right to make their own roll, although the Government acknowledged they were intelligent, and had for half a century called them the Civilized Tribes and dealt with them as civilized people. But finally even the Government agreed that the time had come to close ihose rolls, and they were closed seven years ago. In so far as this roll of 52 is con- cerned, I am quite willing to have them put on. None of the tribes have objected to the 52 going on. But I am not willing to have those supposed to be involved in the report by Mr. Howell. I do not agree with the approval given to Mr. Howell's attitude by Mr. Bal- linger. I strongly disapprove of Mr. Howell's attitude. I do not think that Mr. Howell's view has been fair to the tribe, and after the words of warm commendation which Mr. Howell has received I feel obliged to express my dissent, which I do with great regret, because in truth I have not so far critically inquired into the case or cases which Mr. Howell has passed on to really be justified in saying that his derision was absolutely wrong in any case. But from a general knowledge of what was going on and his general attitude and the representations made to me by the representatives of the Five Tribes, I gradually grew to believe that Mr. Howell was always unduly favor- able to admitting applicants for citizenship, and that he was in this point of view unfavorable to these tribes. The Kepresentative from Oklahoma from my immediate home dis- trict, Mr. James F. Davenport, who has been elected time and time again by the people of his district, showing their confidence in him, and who was long a representative of the Cherokee Nation, the}* hav- ing elected him to one office after another whenever he ran, repre- sented the Cherokees in connection with this citizenship matter, and I should be glad to have him say to the cOmriiittee what he knows about this question, because he is intimately faraiiliar with it, far more so than I am. That is all I care to sav. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 585 STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES F. DAVENPORT, A REPRESENT- ATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA. Mr. Chairman, I had hoped that in the future legislation, after March 4, 1907, that night would never come to my memory again. I was so unfortunately situated^-or fortunately, one or the other — as to be one of the attorneys representing the Cherokee Nation in the makmg of the rolls of the Cherokee Tribe of Indians. And I did mention it, or very nearly so, without calling names on April 12, 1912, in a speech which I made in the House of Kepresentatives that this condition existed, and that being the facts as Mr. Bailinger stated, that the Secretary of the Interior had sent out letters saying that he did not have thne to finish that roll, perhaps I should not have men- tioned it again, because it is the blackest piece of history since I began to be connected with Indian tribes. I want to give you the history. There was a treaty, as Senator Clapp and others know, with the Cherokee Tribe of Indians by which they were to make all of their slaves equal heirs to their lands and moneys, known as the treaty of 1866. When the date was fixed for closing the roUs, March 4, 1907 — but prior to that for seven years, I began on April 1, 1901, to help make the Cherokee tribal rolls and ended at 20 minutes after 10 o'clock at night, March 4, 1907, in the office of the Secretary of the Interior. There were a number of freedmen, or negroes, as we caU them, they were classed as freedmen in making the rolls — made application. And the case I am going now to speak of, known as the Riley case, came to the office of the Secretary of the Interior twice, and I think by preliminary motions, as spoken of by Senator Owen, was sent back for further testunony. Each time the Com- missioner of the Five Civilized Tribes and the corps of lawyers had decided against the enrollment of the Riley negroes. Senator Owen. How many times ? Representative Davenport. Twice. It was sent back a third time and they again decided against the enrollment of the Riley negroes, and by that time testimony had been taken from lola, Kans., and Ossawa- tomie to the old Indian Territory, showing that those negroes had resided in Kansas, near Garnet, 20 years, almost, after the war. After the 25th of February, which has been mentioned by Mr. Bailinger, there were a number of cases which came from the Com- missioner of the Five Civihzed Tribes to the Secretavy's office to be passed upon. Mr. Wright sent one of his men here to locally represent him. Mr. Wright was the Commissioner c»f the Five Civilized Tribes, and Mr. A. F. McGarr, as able a lawyer as we have in my section of the country, came to Washington from the office at Muskogee, to represent the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes. He did see that the cases were gotten before the commissioner and the Secretary of the Interior as fast as they were received in the mail There were about 800 names included in the cases of freedmen which came to the Secretary's office. In that 800 were 93 negroes, connected with the Riley family. >r i_ . The Secretary reviewed a lot of the negro cases before March 4, 1907, and affirmed all except the Riley case. But the only way, in my judgment, that you can ever correct this enrolbnent is to specifically take those that Commissioner George Wright found were entitled to be enrolled, and place them on the roll 586 INDIAX APPROPEIATIOK- BILL. and say they are entitled. We had 70,000 applicants in 1896 in the Cherokee Nation, and it went on then for 10 or 12 years, and you will never end the citizenship question. I do not want or I do not ask that anybody be denied the ri^ht, but I am going to be frank— the Commissioner of Indian Affairs is here, and I want to say to you now that, although I am but one of 434 Members of the House, when a bill comes to the House proposing that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs or the Secretary of the Interior, either one, shall have absolute jurisdiction to take testimony and hear enrollment cases you are going to find me one of those Members resisting that as long as I have any power to do so. Mr. Ballinger. Let me offer one suggestion. Would you object to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Interior Department making inquiries and investigating the cases in the Cherokee Nation, and then transmitting a list of names of those found entitled to be enrolled to Congress, so that those found to be entitled may be put on the roU by name so that you may know definitely what you are doing? Ml*. Davenport. This has already been done so far as the Cherokee Nation is concerned. Mr. Ballinger. This is not a complete list. Representative Davenport. You and I disagree. I have been working on it seven years. You represent the other side. I say it is, and I will resist such legislation on the part of the Cherokees, and the Creek people can accept anything they desire, but so far as I represent them I will oppose it for the Creek Tribe. Mr. Ballinger. I beg to advise you that within the last three months I have filed a list in the Indian Bureau of more than 300 full bloods in the Cherokee and other tribes tliat are not included in this Pollock list. Representative Davenport. I have not undertaken to say what the list contains. Whatever the list does contain, if they are named byname, I would agree to it, because I know there are some of them that ought to be on the rolls. Mr. Ballinger. Would not that simplify the matter ? Representative Davenport. Not at all. It would complicate it, and it would never be ended. I know if the commissioner himself could go out there and do a thing that would probably be done, but the peculiar way in which you have to take that testimony — I can prove that anyone was a negro if you let me get out there and get one of these citizenship attorneys and a few of those willful perjurers we had to convict down there, if you will involve a question of citizenship in it. We had statements by man after man out there that he came into that country in 1866 on a railroad when there was not a railroad within 75 miles. Yet everyone would swear they came in there on a railroad on cross-examination. Representative Carter. Would not the principal effect of turning over a general survey of citizenship applicants to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs be to encourage applicants to pay these attorneys and make contracts with attorneys to get upon the rolls. Would not that be the principal effect? Representative Davenport. That would be the principal effect, and it simply means a never-ending condition. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 587 Senator Townsend. You can remedy that by making a provision in the law that they shall not receive a fee beyond a certain amount. Representative Davenport. I would amend that by saying the Government should represent them, that no attorney should be per- mitted to appear, but make a Government officer himself the repre- sentative 01 the claimant. Then there is this Creek equahzation matter. That is a matter that ought to be attended to. There was a statement made by Mr. Mentt a while ago, and some controversy raised between him and Mr. BaUinger about attorneys' contracts. I would not under- take to use the exact language, but I am going to make this state- ment, and it can not be truthfully denied, that the Creek equahza- tion bill would have been reported out of the Committee on Indian Affairs in the Sixty-second Congress if it had not been for two sets of contracts, one represented by Mr. Beiitley and Mr. Moxey, known as the Powell contracts, and the others represented by Butler and Vail and Kappler and Merrilat. These gentlemen blocked action upon the bill. Mr. Ballinger. If it had not been for that contract that you referred to, and any work done by Sam Powell under that contract, is it not a fact that the funds you are now talking about distributing would have been distributed per capita and there would have been nothing left for equahzation, and that the situation would have become dreadfully confused ? Representative Davenport. No; in the hearings in the Sixtieth Congress you will find I introduced a letter, which had been written by Capt. G. W. Grayson, favoring a per capita payment instead of equalization. I appeared myself bejfore the committee and chal- lenged the right to do so under the treaty. Senator Owen. It never would have passed this committee, either. Representative Davenport. If you will get the hearings of the Sixtieth Congress you will find that I, as a Representative of the third district, said in substance, not in exact words* that it looks Hke we can not get an equahzation bill through Congress, but that I would never agree to a per capita pajnnent. Mr. Ballinger. What I referred to was six years before you came here. Representative Davenport. I do not know, but in the Sixtieth Congress I produced that letter myself. Mr. Ballinger. You have been here and you have actively pro- tected their interests ? Representative Davenport. I have tried to to the best of my abiUty, and i hope I have not failed, but I feel Uke I have almost failed, be- cause we have been assaulted on every side. But we would soon get this equalization if it were not for those two sets of contracts. _ Representative Carter. I want to ask Mr. BaUinger a question. I beheve you said, Mr. BaUinger, that you had never received any money either directly or indirectly from any claimant ? Mr. Ballinger. I think that is correct. . Representative Carter. What became of the $1 per capita that you collected in the poUtical letters sent to my district, advismg the j^eople down there that the only thing that kept them from getting on the roll was keeping me in Congress ? 588 INDIAN APPROI>RIATION BILL. Mr. Ballinger. Mr. Carter, I never knew of the existence of stich a letter. Representative Carter. That letter had your name signed to it. Mr. Ballinger. No, Mr. Carter; you are mistaken. My nam« was( not signed to it. Representative Carter. Well, printed to it. Mr. Ballinger. No ; not printed to it. I learned about two months afterwards — I think Mr. Carter himself called my attention to that matter^that there had been such a letter sent out. But it waS signed by the name of Albert J. Lee, and not my name. Representative Carter. Well, your name. Mr. Ballinger. Let me add further to that. I immediately , demanded to know by what authority he was sending out such a communication, and I have an affidavit in my office that I obtained from him at that time, that that letter was sent out without my knowledge, consent, or approval, and that not a dollar was collected imder it. Some few Indians, I think, had sent in a dollar apiece, and the money was returned to them. But it was not with my knowledge or consent, and I never had anything directly or indirectly to do with it. Representative Carter. You are positive your name was neither signed nor printed to that letter ? Mr. Ballinger. I am absolutely positive. Representative Carter. Mr. Lee was your partner, was he not ? Mr. Ballinger. Yes; he was my partner on this citizenship busi- ness in Oklahoma. I was here actively engaged in it. It is barely possible that some of those letters were sent out in the firm name of BalUnger & Lee, but they were signed by Albert J. Lee. My name was never signed to it with my knowledge or consent, and as soon as I learned of it I promptly protested and put an end to it, and I have an affidavit from Albert J. Lee exonerating me in every respect. Representative Carter. There was some money collected by that letter, was there not ? Mr. Ballinger. I think, Mr. Carter, there was not more than $10 collected by it, which was returned. Representative Carter. I think from the number of letters I received about it they must have sent Out at least 10,000. Mr. Ballinger. I do not know how many they sent out, but I know I never received anything directly or indirectl5^ STATEMENT OF MR. M. C. BUTLER, ATTORNEY AT LAW, WASHINGTON, D. C. Mr. Butler. Mr. Chairman, I am a member of the firm of Butler & Vail. Senator Owen. I move that Mr. Butler be given an opportunity. The Chairman. If there is no objection, Mr. Butler will be heard. Mr. Allen. I wish to ask a question, Senator Butler. This matter, of course, is foreigii to this amendment. You were one of the attor-^ neys for this Creek Tribe of Indians, I believe ? Mr. Butler. I am. I have a contract that is not approved Mr. Allen ; Is your firm opposing this amendment ? Mr. BtJTLER. Opposing the amendment offered by Senator Owen t Mr. Allen. Yes. INDi'AN APPROPRIATION B^tLlL. 58^ Mr. Butler. My firm is not only not opposing it but we are heartily in f ^v6r of it. Mi^. Allen. I thought the committee fiaight get the idea that your firm ^as bpposiog it. Mr. Btri*LEii. 1 am very grateful to Von for asking the question, because.it had never occurred to me that anybody could draw that conclusion, or had any reason to believe that we were opposing the Owen £imendm6nt to ^y out the money in the Treasury tJlat is due ' the Creek Indians. We have a contract which has not been ap- proved, but it is one that is subject to the approval of the Interior Departrilent under another amendment pendmg here covering what is Kno^vn as the equalization claim if it should be adopted by the committee. My contract with the Indians, made with the chief and the tribe, distinctly provides that we are to be paid nothing out of the money that is in the Treasury. We were not employed to represent them specifically in that, but since we have been employed by the tribe we have done all that we could to help advance their desire to get their money in the Treasury to be paid out, though we are paid nothing for it. But then We have asked that they should be allowed to go to the court to teist their right luider the agreement for the balance that is due them to equalize their allotments under the agreement to $1,040. We have done this much for them in that respect, since it has been mentioned, that in 1909 when an effort was made to compromise with these Indians and get them to accept $800 in full settlement for what was promised them under the agreement of 1901, which guaranteed to them $1,040 each and a distribution per capita of the balance above that; when there was an effort to get them to accept $800 and receipt in full and surrender all of their claims under the agreement, my firm came before the Indian Committee and asked to be heard. We were not paid to do that, but we felt Uke representing them in one matter so closely related that we would not be doing our duty to sit still and not protest that such action be taken. As a result of the argument we made before this com- mittee, or at least following that— I do not say as a result; pardon me for saying that — but the fact is that the legislation instead of passing as drawn providing they should receipt in full and surrender everything under that agreement was changed, as we had requested, providing that that law should not go into effect unless the Indians acce;pted it in council. The Indians met in council and by a unani- mous vote refused to accept the tender of $800 apiece, and that is why the money. Senator Owen, has not yet been paid. Now it is tendered to them without any strings to it, and I hope this c6*mmittee will pay it to them. It should have been paid long ago. I get not a dollar out of it. I would not accept a dollar to help them get nioney that is their own out of the Treasury unless their right to it was being denied, and, as I understand it, their right to this money has never been denied. It has been a question of whether it is wise to i)ay it out and the only time we have inter- fered was when there was an attempt to make them accept it in full and then ^^e caitie ^nd protested, and we got what we asked lot 'that they should have a right to say whether they would accept ii iii full. They acted on that right and refused to do it. 590 INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BILL. Your next amendment is one permitting them to test their rights in the courts for the difference between the $800 which this bill offers to psij them and the $1,040. When that is reached, if there is any objection to it, or if there is any question anyone would Uke to ask, or if the committee will give me the privilege, then I should like to make a few remarks. I thank you for your courtesy. • The Chairman. The question is on the amendment presented by Senator Owen, which is Calendar No. 110. Senator Townsend. There is one thing that has been settled here clearly. Everybody who has spoken on the subject has agreed that that is true. That is, that there are some Indians here who are en- titled to this money just as much as the other Indians. Knowing, as I do, the progress of legislation through the two Houses, and the absolute impossibihty of putting a separate bill throug;h here, I am going to object as strenuously as I can to this proposition, believing that if we have this matter held up we will get this other matter adjusted in some way. Otherwise, we never will, because I have become absolutely discouraged with any agreement being reached, and therefore I must oppose the amendment. Senator Owen. I wish to say in this connection that as long as I have the honor to represent the State of Oklahoma I shall carry out the instructions of the Oklahoma Legislature with regard to the re- opening of these roUs, I never will agree under any circumstances to reopen these rolls. I am not wilhng to go one step further than to permit the Commissioner or Indian Affairs to review the rolls made up by Mr. Pollock. Beyond that I will never consent to go. I have studied this matter very carefully, and have made up my ^mind on it finally, and as far as one member can express hunselt, I wish that to be understood. Senator Lane. Mr. Chairman, I wish to say that it is quite evident to me that the foundation and the basis, of nearly all these claims is the act of the Government — or, rather, the laches of the Government in doing its duty by the Indians in the first place. If it had cheerfully and promptly done its duty the claims would not exist. They had their birth either in the legislation of the Congress or its neglect. And I am of the opinion from the way we are handhng the lands and making appropriations at this time and at the last session that there will be attorneys here as long as the Indians have a doUar left. This is a matter I do not understand the merits of. It seems that there are some Indians who are entitled to this money who are not at this time going to receive it, but after a while, abba nay, manana, in the sweet hj and by, maybe they will get it, if everything goes off nicely. There will not be so much left; there will not be so much to quarrel about; but if God wiUs they will get it. In the meantime I am going to go along with them and help distribute the funds to all alike. The Chairman. The cfuestion is on the amendment of the Senator from Oklahoma, which is to adopt amendment Calendar No. 110. Senator Townsend. I ask for the yeas and nays. The Chairman. The Senator from Michigan asks for the yeas and nays. Before the roll is caUed, Senator Thompson retired a moment ago and asked the Chair if the roU was called to cast his vote for the amendment. Is there any objection to that? [After a pause.] There being no objection, it is so ordered. INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. 591 The secretary will call the roll. The secretary called the roll; and the result was announced — yeas 6, nays 2, as follows: Yeas: Senators Robinson, Thompson, Owen, Clapp, Gronna, and Ashurst. Nays: Senators Lane and To wnsend. So the amendment was agreed to. Senator Owen. Mr, Chairman, I would hke to ask the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs if he will not prepare the form of an amend- ment to provide that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs might pass upon the 52 Hst reported by Mr. Wright, and upon the names sub- mitted by Mr, PoUock, so that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs shall finally determine the number of persons on those rolls referred to that might be found reaUy entitled to enrollment. Senator Clapp. And in time to go on this bill. Senator Owen. So that we could take it up with a view to its going on this biU, The Chairman. You have heard the motion of the Senator from Oklahoma Senator Gronna. I make no objection to that, Mr. Chairman, but I would rather prefer to have a subcommittee appointed, and in- cluding the commissioner. Senator Owen. That would be agreeable to me. Senator Clapp. But, Senator Gronna, it is not proposed now that this amendment shall settle the names. Senator Gronna. I understand that. It is the form. I think the committee is as interested in the form as anything else. I shall make no particular objection, however. Senator Owen. I would be agreeable to a subcommittee. The Chairman. How many do you want on it — ^ three or five ? Senator Gronna. Three. Senator Owen. Three is enough. The Chairman. Should the committee choose the subcommittee ? Senator Gronna. I will leave that to the Chair The Chairman. The Chair will appoint Senator Gronna, Senator Owen Senator Gronna. I do not wish to be on that committee. I am not a lawyer. The Chairman. Do you decUne to serve ? ' Senator Gronna. Yes, I decline to serve. The Chairman. The Chair will appoint Senators Owen, Robin- son Senator Robinson. I have so much work on hand I do not believe I could devote the time to it. I am working 16 hours a day now. Senator Gronna. I would suggest Senator Clapp. The Chairman. The Chair will appoint Senator Clapp. Senator Clapp. I can not take the time on this. I want to say that inasmuch as this amendment is only to authorize the commis- sioner I do not think, and have not thought, that it is necessary to have any subcommittee. I think the commissioner could submit an amendment to the committee to-morrow and we could pass on it. Senator Gronna. It depends altogether on the form of the amend- ment. ■yi-- -.-i^ 592 INDIAN APP?lOPBiIATION BILiL. The Chairman. The Chair will appoint ^ subcommittee, an, Senator Townsend. What year? Senator Sterling. January, 1913. Senator Robinson. Is there anyone here who appears m opposition to this claim ? ^ ^ . • .r .i i • Representative Davenport. In that connection, il the chairman will permit me, I want to ask permission to file a brief showing the attitude of the Cherokee Nation, and the reasons which perhaps 606 INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BIIX. were not stated originally by the gentleman, Mr. Breckons. There was a partnership condition which existed in this case, and the older members of this committee have had a copy of that argument so often it is hardly worth while to take up the time of the committee to present it or call your attention to tliat argument. If the position of the Cherokee Nation is not tenable, it would be the duty of the committee to pass on that, to do what is right. But the John W. West contention did not figure in it at first, but later on after the Cherokee Nation had paid the other West party for it then John W. West came in and asserted he had a haK interest, or some interest in it. Senator Clapp. A third interest. Representative Davenport. Well, some interest in it. That was* subsequently taken up by the commission, and different reports have been made back and forth on that. Senator Robinson. Do you mean that the claim has been paid once ? Representative Davenport. That claim had been paid to one of the West family who at that time claimed to be the owner. That is my recollection of the record. Senator Townsend. That is, the whole claim was paid to one? Representative Davenport. It was so understood at the time, and then subsequently the John W. West interest developed — the other name does not come to me. The Chairman. Bluford West. Mr. Breckons. Nancy Markham, the heir of Bluford West, was paid $12,000 on account of the interest of Bluford West in the prop- erty, Bluford West being the owner of two-thirds of the property and John W. West one-tlurd. She was paid $12,000. Representative Davenport. At that time it was not contended that there was any other interest except the Bluford West interest. Senator Clapp. A total award, as I recall it. Representative Davenport. A total award at that time, and Mrs. Markham, or whoever was the legal representative of Bluford West, at that time was paid the full amount, and then subsequently the John West interest was brought forth, and the records have been referred to by Mr. Breckons. Senator Robinson. Was this award alleged to be in favor of John West made after that? Representative Davenport. Oh, yes; some years after that. My recollection is that the John West claim was not presented to the Cherokee authorities for some years, until after the Bluford West claim was settled. Senator Robinson. He was not a party to that proceeding? Representative Davenport. No; and as far as I know, from the record, nobody knew there was any claim of John West. Senator Robinson, What I want to know is, as a matter of law, what is the effect of the John W, West award ? Is it not the same as a judgment? Representative Davenport. As the national attorney for the Cherokee Nation is not here, and as I am only a representative, and one of its citizens, I ask leave to present to the committee a brief from the Cherokee Nation presenting their theory of the case to the IliTDtAN At»PROPilIAttON BILL. 607 dbmiiiittee before you pass upon this item, and if, as I said before, T^heii you have examined it Senator Clapp. How soon can you file that? Representative Davenport. I think I can get it here in ian hour. Senator Robinson. Where is the attorney? Representative Davenport, Mr. Hastings is back at home at the present time, he not knowing this matter was coming up. Senator Robinson. What I am particularly interested in is this: What is the effect ol the legal question as to that award? I am of the impression that an award of that character has all the force and effect of a judgment, and can not be questioned but for fraud. Senator Clapp. The House committee and this committee several times had decided either unanimously or overwhelmingly on the merits of this claim in favor of the claimant. I shall vote to put this amendment on the bill, but the trouble is alter these amend- ments are put on in the Senate the Senate conferees are almost powerless in conference. They can not hold up a great appropria- tion biU indefinitely on items oi this kind, and they go off in the conference. Senator Robinson. As a new member of the committee, T can not take judicial notice of what has occurred in the minds and con- sciences of the older members of the committee, and can not be bound by that. Senator Clapp. Of course not. Senator Robinson. Wliat I want to get at is the real merits of the controversy. My understanding is that the legal effect of an award of this character is in the nature of a judgment, and that it is res adjudicata as to all questions which appear on the face of the award that have been determined. Representative Davenport. If the gentlemen wiU go where we tried to persuade them to go we will meet that legal proposition. We have always been willing, as the representatives of the Cherokee Nation, that they might have a provision in this bill to let it go into the Court of Claims, and let that court say whether that is such an award as would be res adjudicata against an Indian tribe who were the wards of the Government when this contention was going on. Senator Owen. If I might be permitted, while my memory is not altogether clear about the details of the case, I think this is sub- stantially the defense of the Cherokee Nation: That while this award might be said to have been made the Cherokee Nation objected to the finding of Mr. D. W. C. Duncan, who with the United States Indian ao-ent there made the finding that they were imposed upon by fraudulent testimony, in this, that it was represented to them that John West was a western Cherokee, that the treaty of 1846 which provided for the payment on account of the salines owned by the western Cherokees, and that this commission was imposed upon by the representation that John West was a western Cherokee, when the truth was that he was not a western Cherokee, but was an eastern Ci\ erokee The Chairman. And on the rolls of the western Cherokees? Senator Owen. Yes. ^,.1.1 Representative Davenport. That is shown to-day. • Senator Owen. What the real facts are I am not sure Representative Davenport. You are correct in it. 608 INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. vSenator Owen. I think that is why they held that the finding of the Indian agent, Mr. John Q. Tufts, at that time, should not be held binding. Senator Robinson. The Court of Claims would not have jurisdic- tion, it not being a claim against the United States — or would it ? Senator Owen. I think the United States would have a right to allow the Court of Claims to determine. Senator Robinson. The validity of the claim against the Chero- kees? Senator Owen. Yes, because the United States is acting as a trus- tee for the Cherokees, and if it had the power to pay out the funds it would have the right to determine whether the fund is chargeable with it. Senator Robinson. Since the question of the good faith of the award is raised, what is the objection to their passing on it, Mr. Breckons '? Mr. Breckons. Nothing particularly, except this Senator Robinson. It is perfectly apparent that this process of putting the claim in in the Senate, if it is put in, and taldng it out in conference, is getting nowhere mth it, and what has been done before will probably be repeated again. It is also apparent that Members of the House and Senators contest the good faith of the claim, the bona fides of the claim. They have done it right here. Mr. Breckons. A statement has been made, if you will permit me — I did not understand Senator Owen to contest the validity of it, but just stating the objection of the representative of the Cherokee Nation to the award. Senator Robinson. Certainly. Mr. Breckons. I do not take it that he fathers or takes that position himself. Senator Robinson. You do not believe he would state it at all unless he thought there was enough consequence in it to merit con- sideration ? Mr. Breckons, That question was thoroughly gone into before both of the secretaries, and in addition to that the attorney of the Cherokee Nation appeared before the committee and said if satisfac- tory evidence was submitted to the committee — and I think Senator Owen will remember that probably — that John W. West was a western Cherokee that would be the end of the question. We then went to the trouble of ascertaining from the records in the Indian Bureau whether or not John W. West was a western Cherokee, and we found, if you will permit me to read, or care to have it read Senator Robinson. No; do not read all that. Just tell us about it. Was the finding of the committee, as a matter of fact, that he was a western Cherokee? Mr. Breckons. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. If that is the case Mr. Breckons. It will not take me a second to read this. Repre- sentative Burke, in order to clear up the question as to whether or not John W. West was a western Cherokee, and to forever settle that question, addressed a letter to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs on the 1st of April, 1913, asking him whether his name appeared on the rolls of the Cherokees who had emigrated prior to 1835. All the INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BILL, 609 Cherokees who emigrated prior to 1835 were ipso facto western CherokeeS; and in answer to his letter I read: Department of the Interior, Office of Indian Affairs, Washington, April 3, 1913. Hon. Charles H. Burke, House of Representatives, Sir: I have the honor to ackno-wledge receipt of your letter of April 1, 1913, re- questing to be advised whether according to the records of this office John W. West, a Cherokee Indian, emigrated west prior or subsequent to May 23, 1836. You are advised that there is in the files of the Indian Office a statement signed March 21, 1835, by Elbert Herring, who was then Commissioner of Indian Amirs, said statement setting forth that it was a "statement showing the names of the Chero- kees who have with their families enrolled for emigration west since the 1st day of July, 1833; the amount of valuation for their abandoned improvements; the amount of debts acknowledged by them to be justly due to individuals residing east of the Mississippi; the amount of debts due upon satisfactory proof and which the creditors had no opportunity of presenting before the departure of the emigrants, and the balances payable to the emigrants upon arrival west of the Mississippi." In said list there appears, on page 4, opposite No. 110, the name of "John West," from Alabama. Said statement, therefore, shows that "John West," listed thereon, enrolled for emigration west since July 1, 1833, and departed west prior to the date of said statement, which was March 21, 1835. Your attention is invited to the fact that the name "John W. West" does not appear in the list referred to. Other papers in the files of the office seem to indicate that John W. West was sometimes spoken of as John West. Respectfully, C. F. Hauke, Acting Commissioner. Senator Robinson. What evidence have you to identify that John West as the John W. West whose heirs invoke the action of this committee to secure the payment of their claims? Mr. Breckons. I have a voluminous research made by Mr. Per- sons, who represents this claimant, and I have not the proofs with me, but his statement shows exactly the investigation he made, and that, I think, Mr. Hastings agreed with him that John West and John W. West were one and the same party. Senator Robinson. That is a pretty broad statement. You think so. What evidence have we to know that your thought is correct about the subject? That is not evidence, you know. Mr. Breckons. I understand that. I am giving you the best I have. Senator Robinson. I understand. What I wanted to find out was, Was there a stipulation entered into between thdm, an agreed stipulation of facts, that they were one and the same party ? fc. Breckons. No,. I think not. I do not think there was. I do not thmk they went that far, but I think it was definitely understood and settled between the parties that this letter from the Acting Commissioner settled the question as to John West bemg a western C]r\ pfo kee Senator Robinson. That is not a question of thought at all. That is a question that a Senator or Representative can have an opinion on just as well as you. Mr. Breckons. Exactly. Senator Robinson. It is not at all clear as a matter ol law and as a matter of fact. The statement is that the names are different, and the further statement is that there are some circumstances tending to show that they are the same. 610 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BIIiL; Senator Owen. I think Mr. Hastings subnttitted a brief here ih which he set up these lamilies and showed that the John W. West referred to as the claimant was not the John W. West ol this par- ticular family. I am not sure ol the details to present to the com- mittee, but I think that was his attitude. Representative Davenport. If the committee will permit riie, between now and tomorrow morning, I will present you with a copy of the Cherokee Nation's rolls, and in that connection if you will examine what is known as the Eastern Cherokee rolls you will find that his son or grandson is now enrolled as an eastern Cherokee. Mr. Breckons. Are you speaking of the roll ? Representative Davenport. No, I am speaking of the Guy Miller* roll, a modern roll, showing who are eastern and who are westerti Cherokees, and showing who is entitled to participate. Senator Robinson. Let me see if I understancf the issue: If as a matter of fact it appears that John W. West was a western Cherokee then this claim ought to be paid? Does everybody concede that? Representative Davenport. I do not. Let me file Mr. Hastings's brief. Tliat will discuss the whole question, and I will not take up the time of the committee any further. Mr. Breckons. Just one more statement, and I will be through. I just wanted to call your attention to this paragraph, that Secretary Teller and Secretary Lamar, in deciding the case and refusing to revise or change the approval that they had given, definitely stated in their report that it was immaterial whether John W. West was a western Cherokee or not, so far as that award was concerned; that the property was the property of Bluford West, who was admittedly a western Cherokee; and that the commission appointed to investi- gate this question was entirely within their rights, irrespective of whether John W. West was a western Cherokee or not. And if you will read their opinion you will see that they decided that it made no difference whether he was or was not, but on account of Mr. Hast- ings setting up the plea that John W. West was not a western Chero-,, kee, and that therefore the commission had acted beyond its powers, Mr. Persons made the investigation and the search that he did, and when Mr. Davenport offers his brief I should like to give Mr. Persons's findings. Senator Robinson. Let me see if I understand you. Is it your view that the finding of this award precludes any question into the facts ? Mr. Breckons. Yes, sir. Senator Robinson. That is res adjudicata ? Mr. Breckons. It is res adjudicata beyond any question — abso- lutely. Senator Robinson. Was that the theory upon which these two Secretaries you have referred to held it was immaterial whether he was a western Cherokee or not? Mr. Breckons. No. Senator Robinson. What was that ? Mr. Breckons. It was not res adjudicata until it had had their approval. After they approved it Senator Robinson. Why is it material whether he was a western Cherokee ? INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. 611 Mr. Breckons. They claim this, that if he was not a western Cher- okee, then the commission appointed to investigate this question, which was to ascertain as to the property taken from the western Cherokees, acted beyond the power which the treaty gave them, and the two Secretaries of the Interior held that it was immaterial whether John W. West himseK was a western Cherokee or not, because Blu- ford West was. Senator Robinson. From whom the property was taken ? Mr. Breckons. From whom the property was taken — that he was admittedly a western Cherokee. Senator Robinson. And the jurisdictional fact, then, is that he was the owner of the property at the time it was taken; that he must have been a western Cherokee; and that it is immaterial whether his heirs are not ? Mr. Breckons. Yes; his assigns. Senator Robinson. I think I understand you. Senator Clapp. It is not for me to suggest, of course, any course for these people to pursue. But this comes up every session. Person- ally, I am thoroughly convinced that the claim is a just one, and should have been paid long ago, but as I said before, the Senate con- ferees are powerless in a matter of this kind. While I deprecate the expense and labor in a matter of this kind of going to the Court of Claims, I beheve the House conferees would not resist the retention on the bill of an amendment sending it to the Court of Claims, and in that way it would some day be settled. This way it is just sawing back and forth, session after session. Mr. Breckons. I wiU say this to the committee on behalf the man I represent, that if the committee will add an amendment to this Indian appropriation bill, referring this matter to the Court of Claims, we will be perfectly satisfied. But what I fear if that is done is that such an amendment will be subject to a point of order, and the amendment before you now is not subject to a point of order. Senator Robinson. Have you any doubt about the jurisdiction of the Court of Claims upon the matter ? Mr. Breckons. None at all, and we would be very glad to have it go there. Our claim is a just one, and we know that any just tribunal will give us justice, which we have been denied for a half century. That is the reason I think I am appeahng to a just committee. Senator Owen. Before we close this matter, I wish to say that in the record, at page 461, l^t year, is a letter from Archibald Hopkins, chief clerk, addressed to the Hon. John H. Stephens, in reference to this particular John West, identifying him, and it was presented by Mr. Hastings to show that the John West, who was an old settler, was not this John West. HOSPITALS, CHIPPEAVA INDIANS IN THE STATE OF MINNESOTA. The Chairman. The first item for the committee's consideration will be that of No. 67, page 27 of the printed comparison. The Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to withdraw from the TfeaBury of the United States, at his discretion, the sum of $50,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, of the principal sum oh deposit to the credit of the Chippewa Indians m the State of Minnesota, arising under section seven of the act o January fourteenth e^hteeiThundred and eighty-nine, entitled "An act for the relief and cmhzation of 69746— PT 2—14 ^13 'f^l2 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 4,he Chippewa Indians in the State of Minnesota," and to use the same for the purpose 'of constructing, equipping, and maintaining two hospitals, one to be located either 'on the Red Lake or Leech Lake Reservation and one to be located on the Fond du Lac Reservation, the sites to be selected by the Secretary of the Interior, for the use :and benefit of the Chippewa Indians in Minnesota. Senator Townsend. Suppose we take up that amendment which I "K^ffered yesterday. The Chairman. We will take up that amendment, then. There is ■4in amendment pending to that section. Senator Robinson. What is the amendment ? The Chairman. It is Calendar No. 151. Senator Townsend. That was referred to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs yesterday for him to report on it. • Senator Page, Read the amendment. The amendment was read as follows: That no appropriation in excess of 15,000 to be paid from Indian funds or which is reimbursable from Indian funds shall be expended by the Secretary, of the Interior t)r by any other officer or agent of the United States, and no new irrigation project to be paid in whole or in part from Indian funds shall be begun until the Indians whose funds it is proposed to use for the purpose mentioned in such appropriations or for such irrigation project shall have been consulted and given a fair opportunity to express their views thereon, either from their duly authorized business committee or through a general council meeting of said Indians, and unless the Secretary of the Interior ^fter receiving such views and after informing himself as to the actual desires of the aaid Indians shall ascertain that a majority of them are in favor of such appropriation -or project. Senator Robinson. Has it been reported on? Senator Townsend. It was referred-to the commissioner yesterday. Commissioner Sells. There is no formal report to be made. Mr. Meritt can make a statement with regard to it. Mr. Meritt. The Indian Office is heartily in favor of the principle contained in this amendment. The only question is whether it should go quite so far the first year as this amendment goes. We are now paying administrative expenses of the Indian affairs out of the tribal funds on several reservations. For example, on the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota^ the Crows of Montana, the Cheyennes and Arapahoes, the Kiowas, and the Comanches of Oklahoma, and certain other reservations, we use tribal funds. Those funds are used in main- taining schools for the education of the Indians as well as maintaining 4)he agency force. We believe that it might be desirable the jBrst :year for this amendment to close with the word ''Indians/' on page "1?-, line 1, and after the experience has been obtained Congress comd 'then better be guided as to whether or not the full amendment should %e adopted thereafter. •Senator Townsend. You propose to strike out the words "and sunless the Secretary of the Interior, after receiving such views and rafter informing himself as to the actual desires of said Indians, shall ascertain that a majority of them are in favor of such appropriation *Dr project." Senator Robinson. It leaves some discretion with him at the pres- ent time to take care of existing conditions, if I understand it cor- rectly. Is that your idea ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. And it requires him not to do anything with it at all. Senator Townsend. That leaves in the amendraent tlie proposition that it has got to be submitted to the Indians before it can be expended for the benefit of the Indians. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 613 Senator Lane. That leaves him authority to go ahead whether the^ Indians agree to it or not. Senator Robinson. Yes. Senator Lane. It will be just about the same as if it did not say so. Senator Robinson. No; I do not think it would. Senator Lane. Practically it would. Commissioner Sells. We consult them. Senator Lane. Practically it would be as it is now. Senator Clapp. I could not hear your statement, Mr. Meritt, as there was so much confusion here. You made some suggestion as to amendment and I was unable to hear your criticism of this amend- ment and your suggestion as to the amendment. Mr. Meritt. We nave no criticism whatever to offer to the amend- ment. We are in favor of the general principle involved here, and we want the Indians to have a larger voice in the administration of their affairs. If this amendment should be adopted exactly as it is drawn it might in a few cases embarrass the office in maintaining schools for the next fiscal year. For example, if a majority of the Indians on a reservation should oppose the use of their funds in maintaining schools we would have no other appropriation adequate to provide for those schools. Senator Townsend. What makes you think they would oppose it ? Mr. Meritt. I do not know that they would. We do not believe that they would, except possibly in a few cases. Senator Clapp. This, in the first place, would not apply, for in- stance, to the Minnesota fund. That is under treaty. It would apply to these additional appropriations we have made tentatively in this bill. Mr. Meritt. I think this would apply to the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota. That would be my interpretation of the law. Senator Clapp. To the treaty provision ? Mr. Meritt. To the money appropriated by Congress out of their funds. It is a very broadly worded item. It would apply to the Minnesota Chippewas, and it would apply to the Kiowas and Coman- ches of Oklahoma. ' Senator Robinson. There is no limitation to it. Senator Clapp. Except that these appropriations are merely formal appropriations following the terms of a treaty. Each year we repeat the language. Senator Robinson. But Congress is not compelled to carry out a treaty; you well understand that. Senator Clapp. Of course. Senator Robinson. Congress can repudiate every treaty m exist- ence, and if Congress passes this law and the Indians refuse to approve the appropriation, in my judgment it would apply to every reim- bursable appropriation, because the language is plain. There is no exception in it. • ■ • j 4. -j. • Senator Clapp. I know there is no exception in it, and yet it is made in the face of a certain condition that this is not designed to meet. Senator Robinson. The act does not say so. Senator Clapp. But you have to read it in the light of the purpose of it, of course. 614 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Robinson. I think it was the purpose of the department^ or Mr. Townsend, to reach just such cases as you think would be excepted from it, as well as others. Senator Townsend. I intended it to be broad enough to cover all Indian appropriations because while we have some treaty provisions I know there has been very serious complaint on the part of many Indians that that money has not been properly expended, and I had felt that in those cases if it was properly expended there would be no opposition from the Indians, but I had intended it to be broad enough to cover all appropriations, includirg irrigation projects. Mr, Meritt. We have no objection whatever to this item applying to irrigation projects because in the past there has been gross injus- * tice done the Indians in using their funds to construct irrigation projects partly for the benefit of white people. Senator Townsend. I was going to suggest, if the majority of the committee feci that your objections were valid, that there is no reason why that last provision should not apply to irrigation projects. Mr. Meritt. We would be glad if it would. Commissioner Sells. We invite it. Senator Townsend. I certainly object seriously to that restric- tion being removed. Senator Lane. They want that. They are satisfied with it. Senator Robinson. I suggest that you add a proviso, ^^ provided that as to irrigation projects, unless the Secretary of the Interior," etc. I think that will meet the views of everybody. Senator Page. We will all agree to that. Senator La Follette. Do you propose to restrict it to irrigation projects? Senator Townsend. That restricts this last provision, if a majority vote on it. Senator Robinson. That will enable the commissioner to take care of such conditions where a treaty provision requires it to be made. Mr. Meritt. I believe it could be amended by striking out aU after the word '^Indians" on line 1, page 2, down to and mcluding the word '^ project" in line 5, and inserting in lieu thereof a clause reading : Provided tliat no Indian funds shall be used in the construction of an irrigation project unless a majority of the Indians of the reservation shall agree; to such use of said funds. Senator Clapp. That is all right for an irrigation project, but it does not cover the other phase of the project. Senator Townsend. No; it does not. Senaror Clapp. We are appropriating in this bill $75,000 of the money of the Chippewa Indians — I have that in mind — and there are other appropriations similar to that. I believe they should be consulted as to the use of their money outside of the treaties that they have made. Mr. Meritt. We agree with you entirely. Senator Clapp. I am perfectly willing to let this go, as you may agree with Senator Townsend, and then put that provision in a par- ticular item itself, which I first suggested, ''that no part of this fund shall be used without first referring it to the general council of the Chippewa Indians in Minnesota." INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 615 Mr. Meritt. You refer to the $75,000 for hospitals « Sen^itpr Clapp. Yes. Mr. Meritt. That will be agreeable to the department. The Chairman. The question is on the amendment proposed by- Senator Townsend. year, but I still believe that is a right provision, that all of this money that is to be expended should be passed upon by the Indians. I do not know when we are going to give them independence and let them assume responsibility unless we do so. Senator Page. Would you, in regard to schools? Senator Townsend. I would, unless the commissioner tells me that there are conditions now that might prevent any schools al all. But I can not see it myself. Senator Page. It occurs to me that the Indians are not always as anxious \\dth regard to schools as they ought to be — that is, in some cases. Mr. Meritt. I believe we would have no serious difficulty in maintaining the schools under this proviso, but there are possibilities of difficulties. For instance, in Round Valley, Cal., we are having the greatest difficulty in connection with our schools. We have had several school buildings burned, and one school building was de- stroyed recently by the pupils because some of the students objected to going to school. We have even had trouble in Oklahoma. Some of the school buildings have been destroyed by fire there recently, and it is to meet those objections that we are rather anxious for the first year. Senator Page. I am entirely in accord with your ideas with regard to this amendment, and it seems to me in view of what has been said- that we had better accept the assurance of the commissioner that he is in hearty accord with it, except with regard to the schools some- thing happens that is unforeseen, and accept his faith until next year, with a view of then making a limitation in the law so as to bring it within your amendment, unless 3^ou and the commissioner can now provide some proviso here on page 2 of your amendment that will hit the case. Senator Lane. Just put in an exemption, that it shall not apply to the school funds, and let it rest. How will that suit? Exempt the schools, and let it go for the balance. Senator Townsend. Senator Lane suggests a quicker and easier way to do it — if that is what you have in mind — fco make it effective is to make an exception providing that the provision with respect to the consent of a majority of the Indians shall not apply to appro- priations for school purposes. Mr. Meritt. That will be acceptable. Senator Fall. How would that affect the administration of the agency business itself — how would it suit the superintendents ? Senator Townsend. I do not know. Senator Fall. Are you going to leave that aU to the Indians ? Mr. Meritt. If that amendment is adopted, I beheve it would be advisable to increase the contingency fund so that in the event objec- tion is made to using tribal funds for administrative purposes, we 616 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. could use the gratuity appropriatioiij and I would suggest if this item is adopted that the general expense fund be increased probably to $250,000 from $125,000. The Chairman. You mean just double? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; that will obviate any chance of preventing the work that is absolutely necessary in some of the agencies ana schools. The Chairman. The question is on the amendment proposed by the Senator from Michigan. Senator Eobinson. Have you that amendment in shape now? Senator Townsend. I have not drawn it just as it ought to be, but leave it just as it is, as a whole, and add: • " Provided, That the provisions requiring a majority of the Indians shall not apply to school appropriations or appropriations for school purposes carried in this bill. Senator La Follette. What had you in mind in drawing this? Was there anything outside of the irrigation projects that you had specifically in mind ? Senator Townsend. I had that particularly in mind — that we are expending large sums for various purposes. Senator Robinson. Let me read this language, and see if you can not use it: Provided, That as to irrigation projects hereafter authorized no expenditure shaU be made until the Commissioner of Indian Affairs shall have determined that the same is approved by a majority of the tribe whose fund is to be charged with such expenditure. Senator Townsend. That is in the bill now. You do not have to have that provision Senator Robinson. Strike out the last clause suggested by Mr. Meritt, and then if you want to save these treaty stipulations and enable the commissioner to carry them out whether the Indians want to do it or not, use this proviso : Provided, That this shall not apply to appropriations to carry out treaty stipulations. Senator Townsend. The first one is already in my amendment so that the last proviso that you have there, if that covers the ground that the commissioner has in mind— if your last proviso there covers the objections made by the assistant commissioner — all you would have to do would be to add that to my amendment. Read the last proviso again. Senator Robinson. It is as follows: Provided, That this shall not apply to appropriations to carry out treaty stipulations. Senator Townsend. I would hke to confine that to the schools, if that is the only objection that has been made now. Senator Robinson. I just prepared it with a view to helping along. vSenator Clapp. It seems to me that wSenator Townsend's amend- ment covers the suggestion of the office. Senator Townsend. I will write it out. Senator La Follette. I am a little fearful that you have drawn this pretty broadly. It may reach a good many cases that you have not in mind, and, I will ask you, would it not be better to make it definitely apply to those cases, such as irrigation, for example where you have specific injustice ? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 61 T Now, take, for instance, the Menominees, in the timber operations. There is a product where we are trying to work out a plan of ulti- mately having the Indians manage their own timber manufacture — what I hope will be ultimately accomplished there. They have funds, and, from time to time, under the existing law, I think, the Indian Office makes use of certain of those funds perhaps in excess of $5,00D at a time. There is no doubt about that. The details of the man- agement of the mill there and the lumber operations I of course have- no knowledge of; but if it was necessary to use some of the funds there- for some extension of operations in some way — building roads or some- thing of that sort — in connection with the milling of timber from the* existing $5,000 appropriation and the Indians objected to it, thejr might block the whole work. Senator Robinson. That is exactly what they are trying to do, let the Indians Senator La Follette. Let me say this: You can find on that In- dian reservation, as I suppose you can on many others, numbers of Indians who can be prevailed upon by people on the outside to make trouble. There are lumbermen in the State of Wisconsin who have been after that timber for years. It is the finest body of timber in the State of Wisconsin, and I do not want to see them get it. Yet they are aU the time at work upon those Indians through people who are employed to make them dissatisfied with what is being done. I want to move to except the Menominees in the reservation from the terms of this amendment. Senator Clapp. Would that apply to them ? Senator La Follette. I just submitted it to Mr. Meritt and he thought it would. Senator Clapp. Let us see about that. Senator La Follette. I would not want to take any chances about it, and I would rather make the exception, because while I am here I want to see that proposition carried out. Senator Robinson. If 1 may make a suggestion, I believe all that is desired to be accomplished will be accompUshed by striking out the last four lines of the amendment and inserting the proviso that I read a while ago — Provided, That as to irrigation projects hereafter authorized no expenditures shall be made until the Commissioner of Indian Affairs shall have determined the same is approved by a majority of the tribe whose fund is to be charged with said expend- iture. The Chairman. Do you offer that as an amendment? Senator Robinson. I will submit it to Senator Townsend. The Chairman. Do you accept that. Senator Townsend ? Senator Robinson. The amendment is to strike out all after the word ''Indians" in line 1, page 2, and insert m lieu thereof what 1 have iust read. I offer that to get it before the committee Senator Clapp. That would not meet Senator La Follette s sug- gestion if it is necessary to withdraw the Menommee matter trom this amendment. Senator Robinson. Yes; it will. ^^ ^ ^. ^ i u +i. 4- Senator Page. Yes; it withdraws all Indian control by that. Senator Robinson. This would enable the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to carry on the Menominee project if he wanted to even though the majority of the Indians had expressed objection to it. 618 INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL.. Senator Clapp. If the Menominees — using that as a concrete illustration — come at all within the purview of this amendment, would your amendment relieve it ? Senator Robinson. Certainly. Senator Clapp. Let us hear it again. Senator Robinson. I do not think you caught the full force of the amendment as originally drawn. The first provision of it requires the Secretary of the Interior — and it should be, in my judgment, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs— to get the opinion of the Indians as advisory except as to the language which is proposed to be stricken out. After he consults the Indians he can still, if he wishes to and thinks it is in their interest, go ahead and carry out an improved <, policy. But if my amendment is adopted he could not do that as to any new irrigation project. He would have to take the consensus of the Indians as to that, but as to all other expenditures which are authorized, after he had consulted the tribes affected, he could pur- sue a course that was deemed wisest, and that would emable hin to cover, if he thought it ought to be done, the case of the Menominees' sawmill and the case of the schools which have been referred to by Mr. Meritt, and other cases which he deemed to be meritorious, and place on him the responsibility of proceeding contrary to the formal wishes of the Indians affected. Senator Townsend. I will say, Mr, Chairman, that I originally presented this in two separate amendments, one applying to irriga- tion projects and the other to other projects, and then 1 combined them. I submitted them here and presented them to the commissioner for the purpose of their going into it and teUing me whether there were any administrative difficulties in the way of it. The general principle of it is right — absolutely right — that the Indians should have an opportunity to decide this question. Now, if the committee -will follow me I think it is unnecessary to put in the Senator's amend- ment. If all you want to do is to make this apply to irrigation projects, if you mil do that, strike out all beginning with line 5 of page 1 down to line 5 of page 2, which reads: and no new irrigation project to be paid in whole or in part from Indian funds shall be begun until the Indians whose funds it is proposed for the purposes mentioned in such appropriations or for such irrigation projects have been consulted and ^ven a fair opportunity to express in writing their views thereon, either through their duly authorized business committee or through a general council meeting of said Indians, and unless the Secretary of the Interior after receiving. such views and after inform- ing himself as to the actual desires of said Indians shall ascertain that a majority of them are in favor of such appropriation or project. Senator Robinson. That narrows and confines it exclusively to irrigation projects. Senator Townsend. I understand that is what they wanted done. Senator Robinson. But according to the amendment you present here it relates to every appropriation made out of reimbursable funds for whatever purpose, and this new amendment is an entirely differ- ent proposition from the one you first presented. Senator Townsend. I know it, but I supposed that was the wish of the committee — what we have been talking about. Senator Robinson. I understood it was the view of the Commis- sioner and the wish of the committee that the Indians should be consulted when their moneys were to be expended for any purpose, and it was to be absolutely binding when they undertook to establish INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 619 a new irrigation project. I think that is right, and I am wiUing to concede the proposition. Commissioner Sells. We are thoroughly \vith you on that. Senator floBiNSON. I ofter that amendment. The Chairman. The amendment of the Senator from Arkansas is to strike out all after the word ^^ Indians" on line 1, page 2, and insert a period, and after the word '^Indians" insert the following proviso : Provided, That as to irrigation projects hereafter authorized no expenditures shall be made until the Commissioner of Indian Affairs shall have determined that the same is approved by a majority of the tribe whose fund is to be charged with said expend- iture. Senator Townsend. That is all right. The chakman put the question on the amendment and declared that it was unanimously adopted. The Chairman. Is there any objection to the adoption of the sec- tion with this amendment ? The section was agreed to. Senator Clapp. I shall ask, in view of that action, that the appro- priations made by the bill with reference to the Chippewas, in excess of $5,000, shall be subject to approval by a majority of the Indians voting in council. The Chairman. Is there any objection to that? Senator Robinson. What is that amendment? Senator Clapp. I say I shall now ask, in view of the change that was made here, that as to the appropriations in the Minnesota items, in excess of S5,000, they shall only be available on approval by a majority of the Indians in council. Senator Robinson. Is that not true, anyway? Senator Clapp. No. You really have not done a thing here except to tie up future irrigation appropriations. Senator La Follette. Yes; we have. Senator Robinson. We have done a whole lot. I shall oppose your amendment if you want to insist upon it. What we have done here by this amendment is to give the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, who has expressed his sympathy with the plan, the opportunity of consulting the Indians whenever their funds are to be charged with an extensive expenditure. We have not taken away from him the power to prevent the expenditure when Congress makes it, if the Indians do not want it to be made, for the reason that it may greatly disturb at present the administrative affairs in matters now in process of administration. But I do not think it wise to say that no fund under any circumstances appropriated by Congress out of the Indian funds shall be expended until the Indians have been consulted for the very reason that Senator La Follette has suggested. Some- times outside influences that are not in sympathv with the Indian will work up a political scheme to get them to object to an expenditure that is plainly in their interests, and I think some discretion ought to be left with the commissioner as to that class of cases. I can not conceive of a new irrigation project that that should apply to, and for V at reason we have limited it to that. The amendment expresses at the present time just what I think ought to be done m this particular It gives the Indian a vote every time a dollar in excess of $5,000 of 620 INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. his money is to be charged or is to be expended. He has a voice in it, and he ought to have it. Senator Clapp. Senator Robinson, to-day, without one line written into this bill, the Indian Commissioner could invite the Indians on any reservation to hold a council and express their preference. Senator Robinson. Certainly he could. Senator Townsend. This compels him to do it. Senator Clapp. I know, but he is not bound by that expression except as to irrigation. Senator Robinson. But the great trouble Senator Clapp. Let me finish my statement. I think in this very item here where they ask for 125,000 we have now given $75,000. Senator Robinson. I have not a bit of objection to your amend- ment. I think it is a pretty good amendment. The Chairman. If there is no objection it will be agreed to. Senator Robinson. Do not let us be in too big a hurry. There is this objection, however. If every Senator offers an amendment like that it will destroy the symmetry of the provision and the first thing we know it will destroy the effect of it. I am perfectly willing to let the commissioner take the advice of the Indians on that, and if they do not approve of it and he still thinks it ought to be expended in their interest, as might possibly be the case, let him do it. But if you want to insist that ne should not do it at all unless they did approve of it — ^you being more familiar mth the situation. Senator Clapp. I would not feel like sitting here and voting $75,000 of their money for this purpose without either first or last getting their consent to it. Senator Robinson. Let me make this suggestion to you, that you redraft your amendment so as to provide that on the approval of the Indians in such form as you want it, that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs may go ahead and establish these projects. Senator Clapp. That is my proposition. It does not need any suggestion. Senator Robinson. No, it is not. Your proposition was to except from the general provisions of the amendinent a specific case. Let your own amendment be drafted in the form you think it ought to be in. Senator Clapp. That was my suggestion, but you amended Senator Townsend's amendment. He said he wanted to cover these specific cases. Senator Robinson. No; you said you wanted to except them from the provision. The effect is the same. There is no use of a controversy about it. Senator Clapp. You misunderstand me. I did not mean to accept Senator Townsend's amendment at all. I was referring to the Minnesota items. I said as to the Minnesota items I wanted a provision that these items shall not be enforced until approved by the council. You misunderstood me if you thought I meant to affect his. Senator Lane. This amendment of yours, then, provides for a specific instance wherein this other amendment, you think, will not reach the case ? Senator Clapp. Yes. INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. 621 Senator Lane. I think that is about the trouble with this amend- ment. The last one we put through amended Senator Townsend's proposition, but this is a case where the commissioner issues an invitation to these people to participate, you know, and whether they do or not the matter is left in his hands to go ahead and do what he pleases. There is nothing obligatory about it. It is an R. S. V. P. invitation. He has the same power now. Senator Clapp. I think Senator Robinson is right, to this extent — in the main: Let there be consultation, but to sit here and vote away en bloc a whole lot of money of those Indians, without first having a chance to confer with them, is wrong. I think it ought to be safe- guarded. Senator Lane. I think so too. I favor your amendment. Senator Townsend. That apphes to page 22. The Chairman. It will be inserted after the word ' 'Minnesota'' on line 2, page 28, of the comparison. Senator Townsend. Does that provide for maintaining two hos- pitals? The Chairman. Three, Senator. Senator Robinson. All you have to add is that the Indian whose fimd is to be subject to expenditure shall be consulted about it. Senator Clapp can arrange it. SELECTION OF AGENTS OR SUPERINTENDENTS BY BALLOT OF INDIANS. Senator Owen. Mr. Chairman, may I at this point suggest a similar amendment that I think the committee might be wiUing to consider, to this effect : Whenever any tribe or band of Indians deem their superintendent or agent undesir- able to a majority of said Indians on account of his methods of conducting these affairs the business committee, if any, or a council of said tribe or band of Indians, upon a general notice of 30 days according to their tribal custom or otherwise, shall fix a date upon which a general election of said tribe or band shall be held under such rules and regulations as said business committee or council shall decide, and by a vote by the Australian ballot of the male adults over 21 years of age may be taken to determine whether said superintendent or a^ent shall be retained among them or not in his position. And if two-thirds of said male adults vote against the retention of said agent or superintendent, the Secretary of the Interior and Commissioner of Indian Affairs may discharge such agent or superintendent, and shall within 60 days thereafter appoint his successor. EXPENSES OF THE BOARD OF INDIAN COMMISSIONERS. The Chairman. The question now is for expenses of the Board of Indian Commissioners, $4,000, including not to exceed $300 for office rent, item 13, page 10 of the comparison, page 233 of the hearings. Senator Townsend. There is an amendment pending, I believe, to increase that to $10,000. The Chairman. The Senator from Michigan has an amendment pending to make that $10,000. MONUMENT TO SCARLET CROW. Senator Gronna. If there is no business before the committee, pe?id- ing the return of Senators La Follette and Owen, I want to brin^ up a small matter before the gentlemen return. It is an appropriation to mark the grave of the Indian chief. Scarlet Crow. He was buried in 622 INDIAN APPKOP^IIATION BILL. the Congressional Cemetery here iiT Washington and his grave has never been marked. I have some correspondence here from the com- missioner. I am quite sure there would be no objection to it. Senator Clapp. I do not think it necessary to take time on that. That is a matter that has recently been given a great deal of publicity, and I think everybody is agreed there ought to be a stone placed there. Senator Page. What amount does it call for? Senator Gronna. $100. Senator Page. I move it be allowed. The motion was agree to. The Chairman. Senator Gronna, if you will furnish the secretary with a copy of the amendment, it will be inserted at the proper placer EXPENSES OF THE BOARD OF INDIAN COMMISSIONERS. The Chairman. The next item is No. 13, page 10, of the printed bill. Senator Thompson. We had better ^et a time to vote on that item, so that all the Senators will have an opportunity to be present. There are a number of Senators not here, and I think all ought to be present. The Chairman. I will say that to-day is the only time I have seen all members of the committee present. All are present except two, who are ill. Senator Thompson. Go right ahead, then. The Chairman. What is the pleasure of the committee? The Senator from Michigan has an amendment pending increasing the amount to $10,000. Senator Lewis. May I ask what that amendment is ? The Chairman. On page 10 of the comparison, line 4, it is pro- posed to strike out the figures ''$4,000" and insert ''$10,000." Senator Lewis. The object, as I understand, is to increase the sup- ply and increase the amount to be provided ? The Chairman. Yes; to increase the amount of money that the Indian Commissioners can use for their expenses. Mrs. Kellogg, do you wish to be heard ? Mrs. Kellogg. Yes, sir. The Chairman. If there is no objection, Mrs. Kellogg will be heard. STATEMENT OF LAURA CORNELIUS KELLOGG. Mrs. Kellogg. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I want to apologize for some parts of this statement as being somewhat of an antichmax to the commissioner's speech the other day, but it bears out the argument I finally propose, so I shall not cut it up. It is with no small degree of pain and embarrassment that I am obliged to strain the point of delicacy to put in a word here con- cerning the Board of Indian Commissioners. I want to be understood above all things that I do not come in a spirit of fault-finding, but rather of sorrow and desperation. And that I have no desire to put at the door of this board all that has befallen the Indian. Indeed, when I see the excellent spirit of fairness which the committee has shown us, I feel a certain part of the Indian's misfortunes is due to his own reticence rather than to anyone outside. INl)IAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 623 But he has so long occupied the false position of being a recipient of go-called benevolence that he is dying of delicacy and kind- ness. So, perhaps, it is not altogether unpardonable that he should be heard from now, when the question of a great change is before yoti. Moreover, I feel in duty bound to explain my own position m the matter, since Ivcame before this committee a year ago and pleaded in behaK of this board. At that time I had a sense of gratitude akin to affection for this body, as I shall always have for some of its members, and for any- one who has ever done anything for the Indian. They represented the highest element in the American Nation — that element who in turn represent the brains, the culture, the fine feelings, and that large sense of responsibility for the weak which characterized the admirable forefathers of the most of you here. Now, as I think of it, mj impressions of this board came from my personal knowledge of Warren K. Moorehead, of Andover, and Father Ketcham. I was convinced they knew the actual conditions among the race and that they deplored them no less than I did. I looked forward to marked achievement on the part of these able men and of the organi- zation to which they belonged. There never was a time when the Indian did not appreciate the higher type of American man. Our traditions are full of beautiful allusions to him. When there was peace at our fires the children were taught to cherish the memory of WilUam Penn and his kind. So thoroughly did I believe in the representation of this type of man in our affairs that I even incorporated in my reform measures under the Lolomai Industrial Community a similar board to take the place of the bureau. My conviction then was that the bureau needed supervision more than the Indian. And with all due respect to the new commissioner and his assistant, I am not yet convinced I am wrong. I do know for a fact that even with a right disposition on the part of the head of the bureau, that great pains are being taken by some of his subordinates to misinform mm of the actual conditions in the field. In a year's time I have been awakened to more hideous facts in the Indian situation which must now be reckoned with as emergencies. To-day a great many Indians are starving to death on the various reservations. The Blackfeet of Montana are no better off this year than they were last when I saw letters from them unploring for rehef , and telling that some of their people had been so reduced as to have gone through the garbage of their white neighbors looking for bread, and declaring that something must be done, that such conditions had never been known to the pride of the Blackfeet. The Secretary of the Interior tried to ascertain the trouble by tele- graphic communication and in response to his inquiry the agent wired bacK that everything was prosperous with those Indians. That agent is still there, and has been long enough to be responsible for these conditions. . Amono- the Yankton Sioux of South Dakota the same conditions prevail. ^ Aged Indians who were rich in lands, and in many instances had money on deposit at the agency, died of want. Among the Creeks of Oklahoma I saw such abject poverty among the masses that I asked one of their paleface attorneys in whom both Indians and palefaces had confidence, what he thought of the 624 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Creek situation, and he replied, "I should not be surprised if we should wake one morning and find the Creek population in the streets of Muskogee." Among the Crows I am told there is want and starvation as a direct result of a lease of their cattle range to the Beef Trust against their protest. In fact the condition of poverty is so general that I want to ask the Board of Indian Commissioners, have they not known of these dire conditions in the population and have they not protested against it ? Do they not know who is so largely responsible for these conditions ? But starvation is not all. There are outrages that are even worse than starvation. What of the acts of physical violence that are committed on some reservations? What of the treatment of one George Black Owl among the Sioux ? He had been ostracized from his home and his family because of some controversy with Indian Office oflScials. His family became ill and distressed and he came home to them. Immediately the agent had him arrested. He was taken by brute force by the police and so beaten to the agency jail that he had hemorrhages of the kidne^^s. At this same agency an Indian woman with a sick child not a year old was arrested and brought to the agency jail. The police drove with her over 8 miles at zero weather, and she was confined to a cold and filthy cell. Her child died that night and the agent would not even bury it, so her Indian friends took up a collection and buried it themselves. That agent is still lording it over the Yankton Sioux, Why ? On another reservation an unspeakable outrage was attempted by the agent upon a woman prisoner in the presence of her 6-year-old b*Dy. An instance where mob lynching would have been justifiable on the part of the Indians, but too decent for this man. He, too, was one of the favorites of the last administration. He, too, still remains in the service. Wherefore ? In the Congressional Record of February 26 is a long list of charges against the present secretary of the Board of Indian Commissioners. Could the chairman of the House Indian Committee so err as to make such charges without their being susceptible of proof? I can not believe it. We do believe that the Hon. John H. Stephens is a man of honor and discretion. In his long association with Indian affairs we have never heard otherwise of him. The secretary of an organization sometmies has more power than the president. In this instance he is the executive, the man on the ground. He has his hand on the pulse of the organization. Have the Board of Indian Commissioners, men so eminent for their intel- ligence, put themselves into the hands of a man whom ex-President Taft would not nominate for the commissionership of Indian affairs ? Why was it necessary that a campaign for his commissionership should be made in New York City, as it was done by one of his superintendents? Has this board, which has existed for 45 years, not become aware that Indian affairs constitutes one of the largest political trading posts in the United States ? Did not the Indians' candidate for the commissionership receive a message that if he wanted the commissionership he should come to New York Citv? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 625 We do not blame this board for their half-hearted measures in our behalf, for it is a well known fact that anyone who takes up the Indians' fight in serious earnest must run the gamut of vilUfication, arrest, indictment, jail, and every possible form of persecution by members of the old ring in the Interior Department. To illustrate, there are several people in the room who have had this experience, but I want to call up the case of Joseph Estes, who came before the committees of Congress last year to ask for the alleviation of the suffering among the Yankton Sioux, and what happened? Immediately on his return home, persecution by mem- bers of the Interior Department and the local agency began. He was ordered off the reservation, forced to move his store and his home, and a separation between him and his wife attempted by the agent. He was practically ruined financially. This is not unusual mth us. This has always awaited anyone who tried to uncover the corruption in the bureau. We do not ask that our friends should go to the cell for us. But when this Board of Indian Commissioners put themselves into the hands of a man who is the Corhss engine in a machine notorious for its corruption, gentlemen of the committee, they have presumed upon our simplicity too far. With our people dying in the field as a result of outrages; with one Indian out of every three afflicted with trachoma and the great white plague; with the three agents of progressive degradation^sickness, vice, poverty — intrenched among us as the result of our relations with a corrupt bureau; with the altruism of the best of American citizenhood not only deteriorating into a half-hearted, hollow- chested cry for justice, but becoming a positive force for the per- petuation of the conditions which have been our undoing, the hour for a clean new order is here. While benevolence has turned out a veritable farce, let me remind you that government without the Indians representation has turned out a tragedy. What twentieth-century civilization has done with the noblest type of primitive man is a matter of interest to the enlightened world. Sooner or later the truth of the Indian situation must get before the public, in spite of suppressed documents in the Interior Department, in spite of professional perjury, in spite of jails. This Indian question can no longer be pinned to the thumbscrews and the stake of Government tyranny. It must be taken to the open arena, there to test your democracy before the eyes of the world. I do not know how long this committee intends to pass upon details of an order which has been tried and proved fallacious over and over again. Before yesterday there were but two new departures you had made from the old way that we have been able to detect. One is the reimbursable feature of this bill, to encourage Indian industry. The Indian Office claims credit for that, but I notice that the industrial feature was never played up by the bureau till after the speech at an Indian conference on the Lolomai Industrial Com- munity plan, and the press and public sentiment had passed upon it as the only new note of hope in the Indian situation. As the author of that idea, I take this occasion to enter my objection to having the idea garbled and then introduced into a system for which no Indian who has the welfare of his kind at heart has any respect. 626 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. This was written before Senator Thompson's amendment. The other departure to which I referred is the creation of the Joint Com- mission of Congress to Investigate Indian Affairs. We want to thank and congratulate this committee for the creation of this com- mission, and we want to see the powers of supervision settled on them, and the appropriations concentrated upon it. In the short time of its existence it has already shown results that are far-reaching toward the hope of a new era in Indian affairs. Nothing the Gov- ernment has done in niany years has so touched the Indian's beaten brow with balm, and lifted up his head with hope, as to know he has a hearmg at least before a body of men v/ho are not indefinite in their search for truth and right, and who possess that all-important quality in achievement— force. The Chairman. Is there any further discussion of this item ? Senator Thompson. I have information that Geri. Pratt wanted to be heard. STATEMENT OF GEN. R. H. PRATT. Gen. Pratt. If I did not think the present organization of the Board of Indian Commissioners was a menace to good administra- tion I would not appear here. I have prepared a short paper, if you will allow me to read it: At the close of a recent session of your committee, one of the Indians present asked me what the Board of Indian Commissioners did. He said he had never heard of it and did not think that any of the members had ever visited his reservation, and that the conditions of health and poverty among moat of his people were bad and had been Rowing worse for years. I told this to Senator Ashurst and he asked me to read it into the record. This led me to expect I might have a chance to express views long entertained and to prepare this brief paper. ^ What this Indian said about his people on the Blackfoot Reservation, in Montana, is true of a majority of the reservations. The report of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs for 1869 shows the reasons for crea- ting the board, gives President Grant's regulations, the instructions of Indian Com- missioner Gen. Ely S. Parker, an Indian, and the first reports of the activities of the board. A very large proportion of the Indians were then turbulent and had to be brotight under control on reservations through the War Department. Congress had given $2,000,000 as a special emergency fund to be used in pacifying them. A new method of supervision through agents and employees selected by the churches was to be in- augurated, and President Grant was authorized by Congress to create a commission of 10 men, eminent for intelligence and philanthropy, to help in discovering the causes of discontent and in applying remedies and to have joint responsibility with the Secretary of the Interior in the disbursement of this money. It is plain the functions of the board were to be directed by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and their reports all show complete subordination to this provision. I was adjutant general of the district of the Indian Territory in August, 1869, wien, soon after their appointment, three members of this board — ^Mr. Bruno, Mr. Dodgfe, and their wives, and Mr. Bishop, came to Fort Sill in execution of their duties. They traveled in wagons from the railroad at Fort Harker, Kane., via Fort Dodge and Camp Supply, over 400 miles, under military escort. They spent four days at Fort Sill in daily conference with the Indians, the agent, Army ofl&cers, and all persons from whom they could get inforrnation. One of their special objects was to find ways by which the "humanization, civilization, and Christianization " of the Indians which the Commissioner of Indian Affairs had enjoined could be accomplished. Ten years after- wards when I began the school at Carlisle, members of this board visited and at once showed much interest in its purposes and welfare. On Mr. Bruno's solicitation, in 1881, I took a dozen students to Pittsburgh to present -at the public meeting the objects and the purposes of the Government in establishing the school, and we were his and Mrs. Bruno's guests in their home. Mr. Bruno personally took a day after the meeting to show us over the city and explain its great interests. I speak of this to show the earnest spirit of the board. It was valuable help. I have known the INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 627 board and its work intimately ever since, and can say that the personal activities and high interest of these first members throughout the field has not been equaled by any members subsequently appointed. Practically all the emergency conditions which led to the organization of the board passed away long ago, and the Indians have for many years been in our hands to mold according to our wQl. The Indians have always suffered from the lack of strong and personally interested friends, determined to advance their civilization into capable citizenship, and this has been the large field alwajrs wide open to this board. The public has accredited and the board has assumed this sponsorship. My knowledge tells me that Congress, through its committees, during the last two years has found out and exposed more of the increasingly deplorable conditions among our Indians than the Board of Indian Commissioners have revealed in the last 30 years of their service. Lack of proper investigation and exposure is in large part responsible for the present degenerate conditions. The Government, both legislative and administrative, should always have had a far more thorough and impartial exposure of the actual conditions in every tribe than it has ever had. A commission of three fearless, able, and interested men, acting jointly under direction of the commissioner, giving full time mostly in the tribes to get into all the conditions and Government relations, could easily become a responsible and most important factor in helping the Government administration. Members of the present Board of Indian Commissioners, amply paid, giving their whole time and so du-ected, would be vastly more valuable than the full board has ever been. Three of our most capable Indian inspectors so directed and investigating together could do the same service and their past experience gives good equipment. To assume that such limited charitable aid as we now have, given by ever so able persons necessarily anxious about their own affairs, operating sporadically and poorly directed, as the present Board of Indian Commissioners have long been, can be mate- rially valuable and wise help, is absurd. Their pronouncements are inevitably weak and misleading because of inadequacy of research. The early training of our Indians to equality of usefulness and independent citizen- ship, always easily accomplished under favoring influences, would have been great glory to the country for all time. The able and earnest commissioner, commanding in this crisis, can, if properly supported and not hindered by divided supervision, work out these problems in a large way and bring early and most gratifying results. The Chairman. Is there anyone else who wishes to be heard? STATEMENT OF MR. H. C. PHILLIPS, OF MOHONK LAKE, N. Y. Mr. Phillips. I speak simply for the reason that I happened to be secretary of the board during a temporary appointment of about 19 months, and during that time I had reason to study somewhat fully some of the things which Gen. Pratt has well stated have not been brought out. That is, I think there is a vague sort of notion about the Board of Indian Commissioners. I think there is a reason for it, and I think I can state it very briefly. The Board of Indian Com- missioners, as Gen. Pratt stated, was created in 1869. It was cre- ated by an act of Congress, or, perhaps more correctly speakmg, authorized by an act of Congress, the purpose of which act was, m the main, to promote civilization among the Indians and also, as Gen. Pratt said, to maintain peace among and with the various bands of Indians. The President was authorized to create an unpaid commission of 10 members to assist him in this work. Congress assigned no' duties to the board beyond stating that the board niight, if the President should so direct, exercise joint supervision with the Secretary of the Interior over the disbursements of the particular appropriations carried by the act, namely, $2,000,000. Apparently the President did not see fit to so direct. Instead, m an Executive 39746 — FT 2 — 14 ^14 628 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. order of, I think, June 3, 1869, the President defined the duties of the board, and his order is interesting in that it charges the board to do particular things and empowers it to do certain others. The defined charge contained is that the board shall — and I think I am quoting pretty nearly the exact language; I can give it exactly, if the committee wishes — the board shall, at its board meetings, deter- mine upon and submit the recommendations as to plans of civiliza- tion or dealing with Indians; and it was also provided that if the board saw fit it might, in like manner, submit recommendations as to the instructions to superintendents, the methods of purchasing goods, and of conducting the affairs of the Indian board. Those are the directions. The board was empowered but not directed to be, present at purchases of supplies for the Indian Service; to visit and inspect Indian agencies; to have full access to the records of the Indian Office; maintain its own organization and keep records of its proceedings. I mention this, Mr. Chairman, because there appears in certain hearings on this subject an impression that the board was created primarily for a business purpose in respect to the purchase of Indian supplies. This Executive order clearly shows the board was in- tended (and it is also shown by the act of 1869) to assist the President in civilizing or dealing with the Indians, and it was to do this through impartial advice, based on study of the Indian country, as was clearly implied by the unlimited authority to visit and inspect Indian agencies. The following year, 1870, Congress enacted a law wliich made it incumbent upon this board to supervise all expenditures of money appropriated for the benefit of the Indians within the United States. This entailed a vast amount of work, as the records will show, and it was done for two years; every cent, as I understand it, appropriated for the benefit of the Indians was personally expended under the supervision of this board. In 1-872, and I think, although I am not certain, at the request of the board, which found the task was almost beyond its resources, this direction was made optional with the board; they might exercise such supervision. This continued for 10 years, during which time they did exercise considerable supervision, but during all of which time, as from the beginning, they devoted a good part of their time to investigation and to advice, some of the time to the Secretary ojf the Interior, and some of the time to the President, apparently in view of some uncertainty as to the proper party to whom they should report. In 1882, after 10 years of the optional privilege, Congress passed an act providing, incidentally, for the appropriation for the board, and stipulating that $3,200 of the amount appropriated should be used for office expenses. It continued the power to visit and inspect Indian agencies aod other branches of the Indian Service, and pro- vided instead of the commission having the initiative of the pur- chase of supplies, that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs should consult with the board in the purchase of Indian supplies, which has since been the rule. Senator La Follette. What year was that? Mr. Phillips. That was in 1882, May 17, I think. This act, I believe, is the last piece of constructive legislation regarding the INDIAN APPEOPKIATION BILL. 629 board, excepting a very slight change in the appropriation bill of a <50uple of years a^o, providing the board might select a secretary from outside its membership, and it is particularly interesting on that account. Now, under that act of 1882 we have three provisions: First, it removes the power, afterward made optional, to supervise the ex- penditures in the Indian Service; second, it continues the power to visit and inspect agencies; and, third, it sets a standard of ofRce expenses, namely, $3,200, allowing the balance of the appropriation, which I think is $1,500, for traveling expenses. Senator La Follette. Has that been the amount of appropri- ations since 1 882 ? Mr. Phillips. No, sir; the appropriations in the early days were much larger. Senator La Follette. No; I say since 1882. Mr. Phillips. $4,700 was carried in that bill; but I ought to state that the appropriations pretty nearly up to that date, I think they were not always carried in the Indian appropriation bill and carried in lump sums from $2,500 to $1,500 Senator La Follette. What have been the appropriations since 1882? Mr. Phillips. Since 1882 I can not state for a few years after that. Late in the eighties the appropriation was something like $5,000; beginning I think about 1890, I think for the fiscal year 1890, they began to appropriate regularly in the Indian appropriation biU $5,000. In 1895 the amount was reduced to $4,000. It has since remained at $4,000. Mr. Chairman, having said that, I want to take up very briefly some of the remarks raised in the statements of Mrs. Kellogg and Gen. Pratt. As I caught from Mrs. Kellogg' s remarks, her first point was that the board — or rather, she asked the question. Did not the board know of conditions in the Indian field during the past year, and, if so, had they not reported them ? The second point was with reference to the employment by the board of its secretary. The second point I need not concern myself with, except merely to point out that the board selects its own secretary and that an appeal to the appointing power, accompanied by proof of unfitness, would probably result in the desired end. As to the first point, whether the board knew of conditions in the field during the last year, I think I would have no hesitation in say- ing that probably the board did not. I think also I would have no hesitation in saying that probably the board has not known for the last 20 years half of the things going on in the Indian field, although here we have an advisory board with important duties. It happens, also, that while I was secretary of the board I was its disbursing agent, and I want to show this committee why the board does not know these things and why it can never know them under present conditions. This is how an appropriation of $4,000 works out: ' The board's office costs at present— and when I say at present I . mean about a year ago, at the time I left the office, and I think it is the same now — costs at present practically $3,200, the amount car- ried in 1880. The board must hold its annual meetings. It has two regular meetings yearly, the expenses of which are very small, con- 630 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. sidering the distance members have to travel, but the cost approxi- mates $500. That is, the disbursing agent would not be justified in withholding less than $500 for the two meetings. That makes $3,700, leaving $1,300. Then, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs is required to consult with the board on the purchase of supplies. if the board should fail to have a representative present at some awarding of the contracts, it is conceivable that the legality of the award might be questioned under the existing law. The board there- fore tries to have a representative present at the two important lettings of contracts in Chicago and St. Louis, at a cost approxi- mately of $200, which does not allow as much work as it should. Then for the primary duties of the board, assisting the President or the Secretary of the Interior— since the act of 1880, as I neglected to state, provided the report should be made to the Secretary of the Interior. For the primary duty of advising the Indian Office and securing knowledge on which to base advice, the disbursing agent can promise $100 to investigate the Indian field — just $100. It might happen, through sickness, absence of members from some meeting or a vacancy in the office, that the board might have $300, $400, or $500 ; but what is that to investigate Indian conditions ? Now, Mr. Chairman, I submit it is a practical impossibihty for the board to know these things. But in order that the committee may know what the board is doing I have taken recent reports of the board and I have taken these from records to show what has been done in the two years, just taking the recent years as an example, with these resources. In order to be sure that I am right, I shall ' have to refer to some statistics I have here. The annual report of the board for the fiscal year 1912 indicates that the chairman of the board spent several weeks, approximately one month, among the Five Civilized Tribes and in other parts of Oklahoma. The following fiscal year, 1913, another member of the board was five weeks in eastern Oklahoma, besides which the board was represented on a commission to treat with the Apache board at Fort Sill, and the hearings of a subcommittee of the House on this bill, and the records of the board indicate that so far in the fiscal year 1914 that several members have made investigations among the Navahos, Papagos, Pueblos, and Pima Indians, as well as conducting investigations at many Wisconsin points and several points in CaU- fornia, all of which investigations, I think, have been reported except possibly those in California. Now, from my knowledge of the board, I know what that means. That means only one thing, that members have gone down into their pockets to make some of these investigations in order that they may be able to perform at least part of their duty and not be subject to the humihating experience of begging Congress for money. Also from my experience on the board I can say that I have repeatedly heard members of the board say that they would do almost anything, but they would not be placed in the class of lobbyists by coming to Congress and saying they must have more money. If Congress did not consider their services worth more money they would do the best they could. Moreover, many times I know mem- bers have been inclined to resign but have been dissuaded from doing so on the groimd that work of the kind they were doing, even if it were imperfect, was needed. And right along that line I can not INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 631 quite bear out Mrs. Kellogg in her conclusion that because the board has not prevented crimes and frauds in the last year, that the board should, therefore, cease to exist. The same might be said of the Indian Office or the Department of the Interior, and as to the need of an advisory body of this kind, I see no stronger argument for that than the eloquent speech of the Indian Commissioner here day before j^esterday. He made a strong plea for men on whom he could rely to inspect Indian conditions and this committee was inclined to grant his plea, even at the sacrifice of some civil service conditions. Now, for 20 years — since 1895 — there has been in existence a body of 10 men who have been ready at any time to investigate Indian affairs to the extent of their abihties, and have uivestigated them, I am convinced from the record, more than the average body of men would have done with the same resources, for I know they have gone down into their pockets time and again paying their expenses even at board meetiugs. This commission has been in existence for the last 25 years on an annual appropriation of $4,000, from which, as I have already stated, they could get no money to travel. It is not the point whether the board can do the work or not; it is the point whether they can get the money to do the work. I am not pleading for the present Board of Indian Commissioners. If the Board of Indian Commissioners has unfit members or unfit officers, the appointing power can remove them, but I contend there should be an advisory board of recommendation, free from pohtics, non- sectarian, and not subject to change of administration — a sort of continuing advisory body in the management of Indian affairs. Senator Lewis. When I was a Member of the House 10 or 12 years ago, I was on the Indian Committee, and I remember something about this board, but time has so intervened that I lear I may not be ac- -curate now. What date was the Indian Commissioner's office es- tabhshed ? Do you happen to remember ? Mr. Phillips. That 1 could not tell you, except that it was prior to 1869. Senator Lewis. Prior to the establishment of the board? Mr. Phillips. Prior to the estabUshment of the board; yes, sir. Senator Lewis. Under whom is this board? Under what super- vision as now existing under law ? Mr. Phillips. The board is appointed by the President without ad- vice and consent of the Senate. It is answerable existing law of 1882 ; it reports to the Secretary of the Interior. Senator Lewis. The Indian Commissioner, therefore; has no super- vision over the board ? Mr. Phillips. Except as I can say, the Interior Department would naturally consult the commissioner. Senator Lewis. There is no way to avoid conffict between the ex- ercise of his duties and those of the board, it there should be such a conffict, save to appeal to the Secretary ol the Interior ? Mr. Phillips. That would be somewhat of a legal question, but 1 think you are right, although I am not certain about that. I might add that about two years ago, in acting on another matter, the Comp- troller of the Treasury ruled that the board was not a bureau or divi- sion of the Interior Department, although they are directed to report to that department; that is, they do not come in the same class with 632 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. the bureau of the Interioi^ Department, and therefore would be some- what different in character from Indian ofEcers. Senator Page. Has there ever been conflict between the com- mission and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, as far as you know ? Mr. Phillips. I think not on questions of authority. I am not certain on questions of policy. Senator La Follette. Has the Board of Indian Commissioners any authority whatever ? Mr. Phillips. No authority whatever, except an advisory authority. Senator La Follette. So there can be no conflict between the com- missioner, who is invested with authority under the law, and the Secre- tary of the Interior and this board that is simply given an oppor- tunity to visit these reservations and make a report ? Mr. Phillips. I think that is right. Senator La Follette. That is the limit of their power? Mr. Phillips. That is it. They are to advise, as I understand it, the administration, the Government. Mi-. Chairman, it is my idea that if this board had money it could and should properly do three things: First, it should keep the committee, as I believe it could, almost constantly in the Indian field looking out for wrong conditions and also getting material for constructive recommendations. Senator Robinson. Tell me why that work should not be done by the regular agents of the Government — by the bureau itself f Mr. Phillips. Well, Senator, I should think, in answer to that question, I should say that the speech of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs the other day was a sufficient answer. Senator Robinson. That is not a sufficient answer for me. It may be for you. But he was not discussing that at all. I should like to have your answer, if you have one. I heard the very excellent speech of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and I should be very glad to have his views on the subject or the views of his representatives when you have concluded, if he desires to be heard; but I did not understand at all that he took any position concerning this subject at that time. Mr. Phillips. I beg pardon; I understood you to say -he did. Senator Robinson. I asked you why this work of investigation and reports concerning conditions in the field should not be made by agents of the bureau charged with the responsibility of administering Indian affairs itself, and why the report should not be made to them by its agents ? Mr, Phillips. You are simply asking my opinion? Senator Thompson. Yes. Mr. Phillips. My opinion, as you s bated the other day the in- spectors of the Indian Office at the present time can not be relied upon absolutely. They are salaried officers and have only small salaries ; they are subject to great temptations. The Board of Indian Commissioners is a nonsalaried body, absolutely removed from politics and other temptations and hampered in no way that I know of, except lack of funds to make investigation. They get no salary whatever. Senator Lewis. They are only called upon to give what time they choose. INDIAK APPROPEIATIOlSr BILL. 633 Senator Thompson. The}^ give their time, whatever time they yield to it they give and sometimes, as he has said, they spend their own money, pay their expenses when the appropriation is not suflQ.cient. Senator Lewis. Still they are under no obligation whatever to give any particular time to the subject matter or investigate certain matters if it conflicts with their private interests or time. Senator Thompson. No; the existing statute, as I understand it, restricts their du'ies to one particular field of work and that is the purchase of supplies. Mr. Phillips. In that, Senator, I think you are mistaken. If I may repeat just a little of what I have said. The act of 1869 created the board to assist the President in civilizing and maintaining peace among the Indians. It empowered the board, if the President should so direct, to exercise some supervision over that particular appror priation at the time. Senator Thompson. I am not speaking of the act of 1869, I am speaking of the act which is now being enforced. There was one act passed limiting specifically their duties. I do not have the act before me, but there was an act passed and which is still in force, saying that their duties hereafter shall be as follows, according to the memo- randum furnished me by the commissioner, act of May, 1882. The commission stiall only have power to visit and inspect agencies and other branches of the Indian Service and to inspect goods purchased for said service, and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs shall consult with the commission in the purchase of supplies. The commission shall report their doings to the Secretary of the Interior. They have the power to visit and inspect agencies. Senator La Follette. They have visitorial powers. Senator Thompson. Yes. Mr. Phillips. The acts of 1870 and 1882 added duties. Senator Thompson. That is, acts still in force ? Mr. Phillips. Yes; the acts of 1870 and 1882 added duties and power to those given the board by the original Executive order, being the duties of supervising expenditures; and this act of 1882 obviously removes that power and says that hereafter they shall only have formal powers given in Executive order. The second thing I think this board could do, Mr. Chairman, would be as it has done on several occasions, to act as a sort of buffer between the administration, the Interior Department, and the public. I recall now of only two cases from the minutes of the board where that has happened; one case where a commissioner of Indian Affairs was accused of grave charges, and requested the board to act as a tribunal to investigate the charges and thereby satisfy public opinion. The other case was where a Secretary of the Interior requested the board to perform the same service with regard to certain charges of mismanagement in the Indian Office. In the third place, which I think is the least in importance, the board could continue to cooperate with the administration on the purchase of suppHes. If there are any other questions, Mr. Chairman, I shall be glad to answer them. I do not know that I have anything more to say. The Chairman. We thank you for your statement. Are you ready for the question ? 634 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Thompson. Mr. Chairman, the commissioner and his assist- ant are both here and if either of them desire to be heard, or the com- mittee desires to hear them, I suggest that we hear them. The Chairman. Mr. Commissioner Sells, do you wish to be heard on this item ? Senator Lewis. May I ask the commissioner a question? I regret my absence from the committee has been such as to necessitate the inquiry. Mr. Commissioner, I should hke to ask you, sir, whether in your judgment this board performs any functions which the office of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs could not perform with equal relief and benefit ? Commissioner Sells. Mr. Chairman and Senators, I would prefer* that the question had not been asked me. I have undertaken to keep mys^f in as nearly a judicial frame of mind as I am capable of in this matter, for I have reafized since becoming commissioner that it has been a much-discussed and to my mind in some respects a dehcate situation. I could do no less than say that for every member of this board, so far as I have met them, and I have met most of them, I have great respect. They are among the first citizens of the country, men of large intelligence and undoubted patriotism. it is my understanding that this board was called into existence in 1869, at a time when the Indians on their reservations were under the supervision of the War Department. I understand the fact to be that President Grant thought that situation demanded that there should be a civilian balance wheel, and I am of the opinion that it was a wise view. I am of the opinion that this board has in the past performed many excellent and helpful functions. Since the change was brought about by transferring the supervision of Indian Affairs to the Department of the Interior, eliminating the War Department, I have wondered whether there was not something of delicacy dominating the situation, and, as was suggested by a Senator a day or two since, but for the respect which they deserve and always have had, there would have been a similar change long ago affecting this* board. If there is to be an Indian board, this board is satisfactory. I would hesitate to say at this time that there should be no Indian board. As to whether or not there should be two Indian bureaus is quite another question. As to whether there should be announced from an auxihary body policies concerning which the Indian Bureau is not consulted and of which it has no knowledge in some instances, and as has occurred during this session of your committee— namely, the appropriation for irrigation purposes on the Flathead irrigation project this year, it having been understood as a result of a conference between the Secretary of the Interior, the Montana delegation, and myself that the appropriation should be substantially reduced. After it had been agreed upon and after it had been put in writing and trans- mitted to this committee, the spokesman of the Indian board comes here and proposes a $500,000 appropiration, twice the amount, for this project, in conflict with the ideas of the Indian Bureau and the Department of the Interior and the Indians of that reservation, and without any knowledge on the part of the Indian Bureau that it was to be done. A matter about which the board could not have the same information, the same dependable information, as the Indian INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 635 Bureau, which was giving it the best of consideration and seeking to bring itself within the amendment adopted here to-day — the patriotic amendment adopted here to-day; the very businesslike amendment adopted here to-day — proposed by the Senator from Michigan. Grentlemen, I mention this in a spirit that I want to have you under- stand is not prompted by any narrow view. It has been my purpose from the day I took the oath of office as Commissioner of Indian Affairs to invite counsel, not only of this committee and of Congress, but of the Indians; of the full-blood Indians, too. There never has been an Indian come to Washington sine the 4th day of June, when I took the oath of office, that the door of the commissioner was not wide open to him and he was not taken into my confidence, and that he was not urged to tell me the conditions with which he was sur- rounded and asked to suggest a remedy. I beheve in conamon counsel and think the man who arrogates to himself the Phariseeism of ''better than thou'' is not a good administrator. So that when I suggest my trend of thought, without wanting to be too positive about it, I hope you will not misconstrue my mind. I have grave doubt of the wisdom or of the probability of the best results being obtained unless there is cooperation and with no sort of influence having ulterior motive or the possibility of misdirected pur- pose. Assure me of that and my hand would never be lifted nor my voice even in indirect suggestions, as I may be possibly making it now. But to take you into my confidence and to speak with frank- ness, I have not at all times been pleased during the last six months with the things that have emanated from the Board of Indian Com- missioners. I have never yet, per se, on a specific thing had a con- ference with that board. I am in the Indian Bureau all the time, with my latch string out, but the numerous things that have been suggested by this board, many of which do not require legislation and which were already receiving administrative action by the Indian OfiBtce, have not first been submitted to me, nor hare I been con- sulted about them. I say these things reluctantly, because I do not want to point in disparagement toward any single man. I am not given to criticism. I prefer to build up rather than to tear down. If I am to be Coni- missioner of Indian Affairs; if I am to continue making the sacri- fices — you will pardon me if I tell you that I am making sacrifices both to my purse and to my health— I need support; I need cooper- ation; I need the strengthening of my right arm, and I do not want any indirections. I do not want to be understood as suggesting an indictment or giv- ing credence to anything that may have been launched against any man, because I have had experience enough in my long contact with the courts and in the various ramifications and responsibilities of life to know that it is easy to accuse and it is sometimes hard, even though innocent, to protect the good name of a lifetime. I do not want to be misunderstood in that respect, but 1 say to you, m answer to the question which I hoped would not be asked, that having stood judicial minded all the time, having refused to criticize, mvitmg cooperation, as the board is now in part organized I am apprehen- sive as to whether it is helpful to the Indian Service. Mr. Phillips. I should like to say just a few words m connection with the statement of the commissioner. He mentioned the board as 636 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. being created before the change from the War Department to the Interior Department. Commissioner Sells. I do not know just when it was. Mr. Phillips. As a matter of fact, Mr. Commissioner, it was created after the change. Commissioner Sells. I do not know about that. Mr. Phillips. And, in that connection, Mr. Chairman, I have here a copy of the laws relating to the board, which was printed in the forty-second annual report of the board, as printed by the Secretary of the Interior, constituting a little over one printed page. Senator Townsend. I ask that that be included in the record. The Chairman. That wiU be done. ACT OF APRIL 10, 1869 (l6 STAT., 40). ******* And be it further enacted, That there be appropriated the further sum of two millions of dollars, or so much thereof as may be necessary, to enable the President to main- tain the peace amon^ and with the various tribes, bands, and parties of Indians, and to promote civilization among said Indians, bring them^ where practicable, upon reservations, relieve their necessities, and encourage their efforts at self-support; a report of all expenditures under this appropriation to be made in detail to Congress in December next; and for the purpose of enabling the President to execute the powers conferred by this act, he is hereby authorized, at his discretion, to organize a board of commissioners, to consist of not more than ten persons, to be selected by him from men eminent for their intelligence and philanthropy, to serve without pecuniary compensation, who may, under his direction, exercise joint control with the Secretary of the Interior over the disbursement of the appropriations made by this act or any part thereof that the President may designate; and to pay the necessary expenses of transportation, subsistence, and clerk hire of said commissioners while actually en- gaged in said service, there is hereby appropriated, out of any money in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated, the sum of twenty-five thousand dollars, or so much thereof as may be necessary. ******* executive order of june 3, 1869. Executive Mansion, Washington, D. C, June 3, 1869. A commission of citizens haying been appointed, under the authority of law, to cooperate with the administrative departments in the management of Indian affairs * * * the following regulations will, till further directions, control the action of said commission and the Bureau of Indian Affairs in matters coming under their joint supervision: The commission will make its own organization and employ its own clerical assist- ants * * *. The commission shall be furnished with full opportunity to inspect the records of the Indian OflHce and to obtain full information as to the conduct of all parts of the affairs thereof. They shall have full power to inspect, in person or by subcommittee, the various Indian superintendencies and agencies in the Indian country ^ * *, They are authorized to be present, in person or by subcommittee^ at purchases of goods for Indian purposes, and inspect said purchases, advising with the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs with regard thereto. Whenever they shall deem it necessary or advisable that instructions of superin- tendents or agents be changed or modified, they will communicate such advice, through the office of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, to the Secretary of the In- terior; and, in like manner, their advice as to changes in modes of purchasing goods or conducting the affairs of the Indian Bureau proper. Complaints against superin- tendents or agents or other officers will, in the same manner, be forwarded to the Indian Bureau or Department of the Interior for action. The commission will, at their board meetings, determine upon the recommenda- tions to be made as to the plans of civilizing or dealing with the Indians, and submit INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 637 the same for action in the mauner above indicated ; and all plans involving the ex- penditnre of public money will be acted upon by the Executive or the Secretary of the Interior before exp^enditure is made under the same. ******* All the officers of the Governinent connected with the Indian Service are enjoined to afford every facility and opportunity to said commission and their subcommittees in the perfornaance of their duties, and to give the most respectful heed to their advice within the limits of such officers' positive instructions from their superiors; to allow such commissioners full access to their records and accounts, and to cooperate with them in the most earnest manner, to the extent of their proper powers, in the general work of civilizing the Indians, protecting them in their le^al rights, and stimulating them to become industrious citizens in permanent homes, instead of following a rov- ing and savage life. The commission will keep such records or minutes of their proceedings as may be necessary to afford evidence of their action, and will provide for the manner in which their communications with and advice to the Government shall be made and authenti- cated. U. S. Grant. REVISED STATUTES OF THE UNITED STATES. Sec. 2039. There shall be a Board of Indian Commissioners, composed of not more than ten persons, appointed by the President solely, from men eminent for intelli- gence and philanthropy, and who shall serve without pecuniary compensation. (Apr. 10, 1869, 16 Stat., 40.) Sec. 2041. The board of commissioners mentioned in section two thousand and thirty-nine shall supervise all expenditures of money appropriated for the benefit of Indians within the limits of the United States; and shall inspect all goods pur- chased for Indians, in connection with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, whose duty it shall be to consult the commission in making purchases of such goods. (July 15, 1870, 16 Stat., 360.) Sec. 2042. Any member of the Board of Indian Commissioners is empowered to investigate all contracts, expenditures, and accounts in connection with the Indian Service, and shall have access to all books and papers relating thereto in any Gov- ernment office; but the examination of vouchers and accounts by the executive com- mittee of said board shall not be a prerequisite of payment. (May 29, 1872, 17 Stat. , 186.) ACT OP MAY 17, 1882 (22 STAT., 70). For the expenses of the commission of citizens, serving without compensation, appointed by the President under the provision of the fourth section of the act of April 10, 1869, |4,700, to be distributed as follows, namely: For secretary, $2,000; for messenger, $600; for rent of office, $400; for traveling expenses of the commission, $1,500; and for contingent expenses of office, $200. And hereafter the commission shall only have power to visit and inspect agencies and other branches of the Indian Service, and to inspect goods purchased for said service, and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs shall consult with the commission in the purchase of supplies. The commission shall report their doings to the Secretary of the Interior. ******* STATEMENT OF MR. F. H. ABBOTT, SECRETARY BOARD OF INDIAN COMMISSIONERS. Mr. Abbott. I had not intended to ask this committee for any tinie to-day to hear from me. The members of the board had their hearing before this committee. You have had the reports of the investigations made by members of the board before you. You have had at the request of your honorable chairman a memorandum of the recommendations made by the legislative committee of this board concerning the Indian bill. The chairman of the board especially requested me, as the sec- retary of the board, to make no argument an3nvhere in support of an appropriation for the payment of the board's expenses. I am impelled now to ask you for a moment merely that the committee 638 INDIA]Sr APPROPRIATION BILL. may understand that the board is not acting contrary to precedents of the board in making recommendations of legislation to this com- mittee. On the contrary, the Board of Indian Commissioners to-day is gong one step further in its utmost endeavor to work in the most hearty cooperation with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Secretary of the Interior by submitting every single recommenda- tion respecting legislation of whatsoever kind, either in a general way or specifically, to the Secretary of the Interior. Ever since the organization of this board down until the last two or three years there have been the following standing committees of the board: A committee on education, a committee on agriculture, a commit- tee on legislation, and a committee on purchase. I can read you pages from the minute books of the Board of Indian Commissioners showing resolution after resolution recommending legislation and directing the secretary of the board to transmit those recommenda- tions direct to Congress, without going to the Secretary of the Inte- rior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. The recommendations on irrigation as referred to by the honorable commissioner, I submit you will find, gentlemen, in the memorandum which was submitted to you, and the recommendation of $500,000 for the Flathead irriga- tion project was made after it was carefully examined by the legisla- tion committee of our board. That recommendation went to the Secretary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. It was not in conflict with the recommendations made by the Indian Office for Flathead, because it was conditioned upon the adoption by this committee of a complete amendment offered by this board to go into the merits of the whole question, the subject of irrigation. Even if that were not true, I submit to you, gentlemen, that if this Board of Indian Commissioners is to be of any value to the Indians of this country it must have an independence that will permit it when it sees fit to make its recommendations, if necessary, in direct opposi- tion to the Secretary of the Interior and leave it to the wisdom of Congress to determine whether the board is right or the Indian Office is right. It is certainly a right that is not denied to any private citizen if he sees fit to make recommendations contrary to the recom- mendations of the Board of Indian Affairs. This brief on irrigation, gentlemen, which has been printed by your committee, was a month before the Board of Indian Affairs, or weeks before the Board of Indian Affairs. -It was sent there before it came to you, and, as I say, that is an innovation in the procedure of the Indian commissioners, and it was an innovation that was introduced and adopted by our board with the idea of working in the utmost cooperation with the Commissioner of Indian Affabs. Our board has been before Commissioner Sells and Secretary Lane repeatedly, and we have asked them to call upon us at any time for any service which they wanted performed for them. Comuiissioner Sells. So that there will be no misunderstanding, you mean they were there for a call, on a visit, but not for a specific discussion ? Mr. Abbott. I mean to discuss specifically. : Commissioner Sells. Will you name the matters ? Mr. Abbott. Yes; aU the matters of the reports, Mr. Commissioner. Commissioner Sells. I have no recollection of any discussion. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 639 Mr. Abbott. The reports which were printed and submitted to this comniittee. Commissioner Sells. I do not want to interrupt you or take issue with you. Mr. Abbott. I do not want to have an issue with the Indian Com- missioner. I simply want to say this to you, gentlemen, since I have been referred to personally, thait I have worked before this committee before the honorable commissioner was here. I hope that I have the peisonal regard of the members of this committee. I did not seek the position that I held in the Indian Office before I came to this board. I did not seek my present position with the board. The Chairman. I congratulate you. You are the only man I have met in Washington who did not want either a job or a higher salary. Mr. Abbott. Mr. Chairman, I am not going that far with you, but I state the case correctly as to this position. I hope that this ques- tion will be considered on its merits. Gentlemen, I want to say just this one word. If my five years of experience of Indian affairs is worth anything it teaches me that Indian affairs to-day, more than anything else, need a permanency of tenure of the managing head. I want to say, furthermore, that any man having the executive duties of the Indian Office upon his shoulders, if he understands the tremendous difficulties, as Mr. Sells will understand them after he has been in the harness three or four years, he will welcome all the assistance he can get from a disinter- ested body. I want to say, further, that the chief work that this board can ac- complish of value to the Indians of the country is not in the matter of investigations, although that is of great importance, but it is in the I work which can be done in the office of the board here in Washington, following the lines which I' have tried to follow as secretary of the board in this work on irrigation. Gentlemen, there are thousands of laws that need to be codified. The main difficulties in the Indian Service are not, with all due respect to ^Ir. Sells, due to the inefficiency of men in the Indian Service. They are due to the system of com- plex laws and rules and regulations that have grown up from year to year, that tangle the feet of the most honest men so that they can not walk as accomplished things. And I want to say to you, gentlemen, that there never will be relief for the Indian situation untfl you cut the heart of the proposition and get these conflicting statutes on the table; make a digest of them, and then, on top of that, build some constructive, remedial legisla- tion that will untangle the hands of the men who are trying to do things for the Indians of the country. And the Board of Indian Commissioners, or somebody who stands apart from the executive responsibilities of the office; that occupy somewhat the relation to the executive head of the Indian Bureau that is occupied by the di- rectors of a large bank or by the trustees of a university — until you work out something of that kind, gentlemen, so that from year to year, continuously, you can have some men working along the con- structive lines that 1 have suggested, you will never have a complete working out of the difficulties. Senator Robinson. The Board of Indian Commissioners has no authority of law now to codify or revise laws, relating to Indians ? Mr. Abbott. It undoubtedly has. 640 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Robinson. It has? Mr. Abbott. Undoubtedly. Senator Robinson. I did not so understand ifc. Where is that authority derived from; from what act? Mr. Abbott. Senatorj would you question that anybody would have authority to take the statutes and work out and codify them? Senator Robinson. No more than you or I would have the right to go out in front of the Capitol and talk of ourselves. Of course, there is no law preventing any man from doing so, but I am asking you if there is any authority of law for the Board of Indian Commis- sioners to codify or amend the laws ? Mr. Abbott. I wiU answer your question directly, basing my answer on the statute. I think that is what you want ? Senator Robinson. It would have to be based on the statute. Mr. Abbott. The statute which gives the Board of Indian Com- missioners authority to investigate various branches of the Indian Service would, where it was determined that the trouble with the proper administration of Indian affairs related to the statute relating to that particular subject, undoubtedly that would lead the board to make a study of the statutes, and such compilations or codification. as would be necessary for the board to work out remedial suggestions. Senator Robinson. I agree with you that the laws ought to be codified and revised, but I do not agree with you that the Board of Indian Commissioners has that power under any existing statute. I do not think anyone has that power, and I have introduced a biU which, along with other things, is intended to accomplish that end. That bill is pending before this committee. I do not think that the power of investigation or the power of visitation which is conferred upon this board gives it the power to codify or revise the laws. Senator Page. Would not the right exist if they wished to do it ? Senator Robinson. Yes; but it does not exist under its official power. It exists as my right Commissioner Sells. Or th^ of any citizen? Senator Robinson. Any citizen to do anything he wants to do, but when he has done it it would have no official standing at all or recognition; would be merely the voluntary act of the board. There is no law forbidding your commission to codify the laws any more that forbidding them to do many other things that are not illegal, but under that charter power, under the authority that was quoted here a little while ago, the power is not conferred on them to prepare a code or to revise. Mr. Abbott. I want to say that the board repeatedly recommended a codification of laws and I hoped the bill would pass, and the board's duties stiU should follow along constructive lines based upon the codification made by anyone else. Mr. Chairman, I thank you for the time I have taken. I am sorry to have imposed upon you for so long as I have. The Chairman. What is the pleasure of the committee ? Senator Fall. I should like to hear some discussion from some of the older members of the committee on this subject. I think it is quite an interesting subject. I will admit that I do not understand just why we can not run the Government business — I have not been in the Senate long enough to understand why we can not run the Government business like we run a private business. It strikes me INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 641 that this department of the Government needs getting down to a business basis about as badly, or a Uttle bit worse than any other department of the Government. Individually, I am always in favor in any business enterprise of holding somebody responsible; putting some one in a position of responsibility and giving them all the power and all the authority and all the money necessary and stajdng with them until they prove they are incompetent, and then discharging them and getting some one else. I can not exactly understand at the present time the necessity of a board. A year ago I was very seriously in favor of the appointment of a legislative committee to investigate Indian matters, and my imderstanding at that time was that the committee, which was later appointed, consisting of Senators Robinson, Townsend, and Lane, and Members of Congress Stephens, Burke, and Carter, were not only going into Indian affairs generally, but were going to suggest to the Congress of the United States some business method of running Indian matters. If the Department of Indian Affairs, with its commissioner, is not the proper body to have the sole authority and responsibility, then let us fmd some other method of treating the Indian affairs. If the commissioner is not capable of doing it, with the assistance of the Congress of the United States, then, if this commission should have any power at all, it should have power over the commissioner, it strikes me, and if they are going to be of assistance they should be assistants of the commissioner and under the commissioner.' Some one should be held responsible. That is my judgment. I am not prepared to say that I am thoroughly enough informed on this matter to take action at this time. I should like to know from those who have been on this committee what their ideas are. I will say frankly that my impression at this time is this, that if the Board of Indian Commissioners is necessary for the public service and it needs S10,000 or $25,000 or $50,000, you should not cut it off with $4,000. If the board is not necessary, why, then, it is not worth $4,000. There is no necessity of throwing away $4,000 and simply putting somebody in position where they can disagree with the men who should be charged with the authority and responsibility. Senator Robinson. The Senator from New Mexico probably was not here when some of us on the joint commission to investigate Indian affairs made a statement concerning this matter the other day. Senator Fall. I was not. Senator Robinson. I am loath to repeat any part of the statement I then made, and I do not know that it would contribute to either the literature or to the illummation of this subject, the literature having grown quite voluminous already. The joint commission in investigating Indian affairs has made extended investigations as to some of the reservations, agencies, and schools, and we have made some recommendations to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and I believe that without one single exception they have been indorsed and put into operation, and we expect in due course to submit our report to Congress. As to the value of the Board of Indian Commissioners, that has not been the subject of consideration or determination by the joint commission. We have not entered upon an investigation of that subject, and under the strict letter of the authority conferred upon 642 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. the joint commission perhaps we would not have the power to investi- gate the Board of Indian Commissioners. However, we have not considered that proposition. For my part I have no hesitancy in saying that I think the existence of this board is an anomaly and that only the high character of the members who constitute it is a justification for its existence at a!l. Senator Fall. Eight there, if the Senator will pjardon me just a moment. I wish personally to say that I have just as sincere a regard for the personnel of this board as the Senator. Senator Robinson. I am sure that is true. It has not been questioned by any member of this committee or by anyone who has spoken to the committee. Nevertheless, I do not beheve that it is based upon sound administrative or executive policy. I said the other day, and I repeat it now, that the only way in the world to ever successfully reform Indian affairs is to place upon some one man or several men constituting a commission the responsibility of the conduct of Indian affairs and give them the power to discharge their duty and hold them responsible for a failure to do it. Now, you may say it is not a division of responsibihty, but we have an example here to-day of where the Board of Indian Commis- sioners has come in direct contact with the pohcy of the adminis- tration of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. After having agreed upon the course to be pursued, it was stated by Commissioner Sells, the Board of Indian Commissioners saw fit, through their representa- tives, to change their recommendations and present another recom- mendation to this committee. Mark you, I agree there is much force in the suggestion that if this board exists at all it ought to have some more definite powers than it now has, but as it is now consti- tuted and — as suggested by one person who made a statement here this afternoon as it is now being operated — I do not beheve that it is conducing to the benefit of the Indians, or will do so. I believe that you ought to concentrate responsibihty upon the Indian Bureau, and I beheve that that bureau is capable, with the support of this Congress, with the support of this committee, of working out the great problems that are pending before the bureau. Now, the Board of Indian Commissioners and the bureau have both been in existence a great many years and it is sufficient to say that the administration of neither of them, nor of both of them, have been such in the past as to meet the highest standards of efficiency in the public service. What will you accomplish by increasing this appropriation to $10,000, as was impliedly suggested by the Senator from New Mexico and by Mr. Phillips, the former secretary of the board ? That sum is so small that it can not enable it to perform any very valuable function, and if you want to create a commission to handle Indian affairs I am with you on that; but I am in favor of creating it and placing it in charge of the affairs and making it responsible for them and placing the present Commissioner of Indian Affairs at the head of that commission. Senator Fall. I think I would agree with the Senator there, if he would formally present it. Senator Eobinson. I have introduced a biU to accompUsh that end. As to whether it will meet the approval of this committee I do ;iot know. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 643 Senator Page. Do you expect that bill to come before us before we get through with this appropriation bill ? Senator Robinson. I do not know. Senator Page. It is now 5 o'clock. I should like to hear further on this subject and I should like to see your bill. You are opening up a new field there. Senator Robinson. I do not think we can determine it in connection with this question. I had not expected to do so. It could not be incorporated in the appropriation bill, because it is new legislation, and would be subject to a point of order, which, of course, some one would make because legislation of that importance would never meet with unanimous approval. For my part, I would be glad to have it inserted as a part oi this bill. Senator Page. Personally I have always been kindly disposed toward this commission. I believe they are men of such high char- acter that they are worth more than they cost us; stiU I would not have any commission that I thought was working in hostility to the administration, but I do not think the fact that they disagree with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs is any reason why they should be wiped out of existence. Senator Robinson. That might be their most valuable service under some circumstances. I agree with you there. Senator Page. They are men working under the most patriotic influences and, as I said before, I have been in favor of continuing this commission, but if you have some new ideas that would enhghten us I should Uke to hear them before we depart from this subject. Senator Robinson. I have some ideas. I do not know whether they would enlighten the committee or not. Senator Page. I move that the committee adjourn until Monday next at 2 o'clock p. m. Senator Owen. Before that motion is put, I should Uke to ask per- mission of the committee to correct my remarks in regard to Mr. HoweU, whom I think, perhaps, I criticized a httle too harshly, but should like to correct it if I did. The Chairman. Very well. (Thereupon, at 5.15 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until Monday, April 13, 1914, at 2 o'clock p. m.) MONDAY, APRIL 13, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Ashurst (chairman), Pittman, Lane, Robiuson, "Thompson, Lewis, Clapp, La Follette, Page, Gronna, Townsend, Fall. creek equalization allotments. Senator Townsend. Mr. Chairman, at our last meeting I made a motion to include all of the Indians that had been reported upon by Judge PoUock in that report. The record shows that the motion was agreed to. That included not only the Creek Indians that that report covered, but a number of other names, and I mentioned them all in the various reports — seven of them, I think — that had been reported favorably upon by Judge Pollock. 39746— PT 2—14 15 644 INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. ♦ Mr. Allen. Mr. Chairman, in regard to this matter that Sen^^or Townsend speaks of, if you will remember, this matter came up a few man's haiid where he lives is against him and his real friends are few. Against the white man he is helpless. The younger members of the tribe have now their full inheritance. This is being; wasted and destroyed. It may so be that I will be the last chief of this race which 18 soon to be no more. Before me have been many other chiefs for so long a time that I do not know, who have served their people as best they could and have passed away. To my people in their last stand against the white man I owe the duty of doing, what is right. When I do this I know that I will be doing my duty to my people, to. myself, and to those chiefs who have gone before me. As the last of these, should this be, should I not do what will be a credit to them, too? I do not want to be known as the chief who showed that he was afraid to stand up for his people, but the man who Ijiad proved he was their friend. For many years the Government has used the money of the people to help the Indian. This has been done and the Indians have not asked to have the right to say who should be hired by the Government and paid out of this money. All these years the Government by the use of much money in this way has not been able to stop the grafting by the white man in Oklahoma, From year to year and one by one the safe- guards of the Government have been taken away from the Indian and he has been left alone to deal with his enemies. This has been done because the people of Oklahoma and the men they have sent to Congress have wanted it done and have made the other men in Congress believe that the Indians wanted it done. All this is what has made the Indian in such a bad way to-day. We now want to see if we can't do something for ourselves, and I can not understand why those who have always been against us and who have always fought for the things that have done us the most harm should have anything to say about who we shall hire and pay with our own money to protect us. It is not right, and as chief of my people I stand against it and insist that these men have no word in it. Mr. Mott has had six contracts hiring him as lawyer for my tribe, and not one time has any Republican from Oklahoma or anywhere else been behind him, and so he has never owed anybody any duty but the people who hired him. He has always said it wasn't the business of any politician to say what lawyer we should hire so long as the tribe was well served, and I have always felt that way about it too. When I ask that this'probate work go on and that Mr. Mott. who has served us so llbng, so well, and so faithfully, be given the right to go on with it, I am doing what I know is right and what I know is for the best. I am a soldier, and fought for four years on the side of the South in the Civil War. I have been in many battles. Never have I run, and I will not run now. The war upon the Indians has been going on for years and years. It looks as though the Indian may get the worst of it in the end. There are few to fight for him. As their chief and their leader, I will not leave them now when they need me. You, as the representative of the chief of a great Government and people, are charged with the duty to help in this fight. I appeal to you for the help which you can give. With good will, Yours, truly, MoTY Tiger, Principal Chief of the Creek Nation. ■ Interpreted into English by G. W. Grayson, official interpreter to the chief . INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 661 Mr. MoTT. Now; Mr. Chairman, the other reference to me was to the effect that the payment of the funds in the Treasury to the credit of the Creek Nation had been delayed because he, Mr. Davenport, suspected that Mr. Mott had an interest in a contract that had oeen favorably recommended by the Creek council, and executed by the chief, looking to their employment in connection with the deficit to make up the $1,040 under the agreement to equalize the Creek allotments. In 1908 Mr. Merrilat and Mr. Kappler appeared before a committee of the House on behalf of the individual members of the tribe relative to the equalization of the allotments. I appeared before the com- mittee, and heard their representations. After the committee meet- ing adjourned I made my protest there. I said to them that I thought if they were going to represent the tribe in the matter they ought to have some authority either from the tribe or from the de- partment; that I had no objection to their employment; that I favored the Creek council passing resolutions looking to their em- ployment contingent on their securing a judgment against the Gov- ernment fc r the deficit. Senator Butler had been employed by the Creeks in connection with the loyal Creeks' claim in which they had recently, or some time prior to that, been paid $600,000. Gen. Porter, before his death, went to Senator Butler in connection with this matter, and some of the tribe thought it would be well to include Senator Butler in that contract. So I myself am responsible for the resolution presented to the Creek council favoring tne employment of Kappler and Merrilat and Butler and Vaile, but I hedged it around with such safeguards that they were to get no compensation what- ever except in the event they secured a judgment in favor of the tribe against the Government. They were to nave no compensation whatever out of any funds that were in the Treasury, and in no sense were they to receive any compensation unless in the event of a judg- ment against the , Government. If I were attorney for the tribe to-day I would favor a similar contract with anybody. I want to state to you gentlemen that I have no special feeling and no special resentment in the references made to me. As I say to you now, I am perfectly content with my situation in the matter. I only ask to be let alone. I bear no resentment toward anybody. I simply do not want and do not think that I should permit a statement to stand in the record of the committee that is prejudicial to me, and I want to say that I think you have accorded me an unusual courtesy in permitting me to make this statement. I appreciate that fully. I have no interest in anything that is on the Indian bill. I have not been in the Capitol this winter. I have not seen a Senator or Member of Congress until I spoke to Senator La FoUette and another Senator and told them I probably would make a statement here to-day. With that exception I do 'not anticipate having any future interest in Indian matters. Mr AUen, my successor, is entirely agreeable to me, and il there is anything I can do to further the interest of the tribe or to give him any support I would be glad to do it. I hope the opportunity will not present itseK again to make it necessary for me to be called on in connection with this matter, or any other matter. I siniply do not want to be left in a light before the committee that is calculated to prejudice and wrong me. 662 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Townsend. I want to ask you a question, Mr. Mott. You mentioned a little while ago in your statement that you had been in- strumental in uncovering certain frauds affecting the Indians in Oklahoma. Will you tell us what you did in that respect, and what the situation is ? Mr. Mott. I think the greatest opposition brought against me was because of a report that I filed nere last December a year ago with the department, which the Secretary transmitted to Congress, affecting conditions in the probate courts of that State. The report has been prmted in the Congressional Record and I think that con- tributed to the opposition to me, and I think the men affected by that report were the ones who were most persistent in their demands on the delegation that I be eliminated. I have filed a great number of suits down there in connection with the Creek town-sites frauds against a number of prominent citizens and individuals, and recovered a quarter of a million dollars in money and property, and that brought me much opposition. I filed the celebrated Manchie Tiger case, which resulted in an annulment of all deeds executed by full-blood heirs under a decision of the Supreme Court of the United States, the benefit of which has been the saving of millions in property to the ^ve tribes. I was also instrumental in litigation that nullified the act of Con- gress declaring certain lands of the Indians in Oklahoma nontaxable; and then, latterly, in the fall — Judge Allen being on the bench as dis- trict judge — called a grand jury and gave me an invitation to appear there and offer what testimony I might have against any parties affecting the maladministration of estates under the jurisdiction of the probate courts. I did so, and it resulted in the indictment of a number of prominent attorneys and business men, and I think that intensified the opposition. The chief's letter sets out in full all mat- ters of detail in the way of my services to the tribe. Senator Townsend. Did you acquire any interest while you wer^ there with the Indians in any of their property ? Mr. Mott. None whatever. I never owned a foot of dirt in Okla- homa, a town lot, or anything of that kind during my service as their attorney. I never had any mterest in any property there. Senator Townsend. Your contract was terminated with the Indians, was it, or was not approved rather — the last one ? Mr. Mott. I beg pardon ? Senator Townsend. Your last contract was not approved by the department ? Mr. Mott. No, su-; it was not, but since I have been asked that question I want to say this: I have never known a man in my life for whom I entertained a more profound regard than Secretary Lane. As to the Secretary, I can understand his position about it. The Oklahoma courts had jurisdiction of unrestricted minors' lands and. over the estates of lands of full-blood heirs. Certain members of the Oklahoma delegation stood up in my presence in the face of the Secretary and said that if I were not eliminated they, the courts, would not cooperate with the policy of the commissioner in the cor- rection of those abuses that had theretofore existed. The depart- rctent was powerless in the matter. In other words, the situation was simply this, from the standpoint of the delegation: We hold within our grasp the property rights and destiny of thousands of unrestricted INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 663 babes iii swaddling cloths and the property rights of restricted full- blood heirs. The price for theii' liberation was Mott's head. That was the question. That is what they meant when they said to the Secretary, ''If you do not do this we will not cooperate." It was once said to a howling mob, ''I find no fault m Him, but take Him out and crucify Him." The Secretary of the Interior felt that it was my head or a massacre of babes, and he said, ''I find no fault in him; take him; I wash my hands," in the verbiage of this letter, and ''commend him for his courage, his ability, and his faithfulness." Senator Townsend. Did you take this matter up with the courts by correspondence or in any other way after that, at any subsequent time? Mr. MoTT. Yes. The Secretary of the Interior received telegrams from Rve of the probate judges making up the eight counties m the Creek Nation, in which they protested against the approval of my contract. The Secretary acquainted me with the telegrams. I immediately mred each of those judges myself as follows: ''Would my being tribal attorney for the Creek Nation in the least affect your disposition, your purpose, or your willingness to correct the abuses' existing in your courts in the administration of the estates of tribal minoi^?" Each of the judges, with, one exception, responded that it would not. The Secretary himself wired those respective judges and re- ceived a reply from part of them that their objection was poUtical, But, as I have stated to you, the prestige of these gentlemen in Con- gress impressed the Secretary, and it was their position that the whole plan of the commissioner and the department would fail in the correction of these abuses unless I were ehminated, and it was upon that theory alone that the Secretary reached his conclusions and based his final action, and I have no criticism or complaint to make. I think the Secretary can well maintain and sustain himself for what he did. Senator Townsend. This plan that you speak of about the pro- cedure in the courts, did you have anything to do mth that? Mr. MoTT. It was the only plan and did not require any farsighted ingenuity or any unusual amount of ability. The plan itself is sug- gested in this report of mine made in December, 1912. The only remedy was the employment of attorneys to represent either the tribe or the Government in those respective courts, and that is what the present commissioner has succeeded in doing, or is under- taking to do, and has already secured favorable action by the Indian committees on appropriations to enable him to do. That plan, of course, was suggested in that report of mine because there was no other plan. Senator Townsend. Did you engage in politics when you were out there as attorney for the Indian tribes ? Mr. MoTT. No, sir; I did not. The point was made that I had, but if I deserve any criticism it is for nonactivity. " I think every man ought to be active one way or the other, and my own failure was such that I think for that reason alone I was entitled to some criticism. But it was not because of the Indian situation that I did not. I really had not contemplated staying in the State or on the reservations, and had concluded that probably I would leave it, and it was not until a couple of years ago or 18 months ago that I made up my mind to 664 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. remain. I went there when it was a Territory. An Oklahoma Member of Congress spoke of me a year and a half ago as a carpet- bagger. If I was a carpetbagger I do not know who is out there who is not. I went there as attorney for this tribe. I did not take any active part in pohtics. Senator Robinson. Mr. Chairman, I think we might resume the consideration of this bill now. STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES S. DAVENPORT, A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA. Representative Davenport. Mr. Chairman, I want to say to the committee that I would hke to make a statement in connection with Mr. Mott's upon the question of the amendment and on that one point only if I may be granted permission. I am not going to have any quarrel with Mr, Mott about what took place in the Secretary's office relating to the approval of his contract^ because that was reported by an official stenographer, and you can have access to that, and I will say now to the committee that I will help pay the transcribing of that. I will pay half of it, and if there is one word in there that anyone who said that the courts out there would not do their duty unless Mr. Mott's contract was not approved; I wiU pay all of it. Secretary Lane during the hearing, as I under- stand, produced a copy of a message — he sent a message to the probate judges in that part oi the Indian Territory that was formerly in the Creek Nation, and they replied to Secretary Lane, and they are in existence and will tell you what the message was that Secretary Lane sent them and what the reply was. That is past histor^^ so far as I am concerned. Mr. Mott is not representing the Creek people at this time, and I refuse to take up the time of this committee any further Senator Robinson. Let me interrupt you. It was upon the state- ment you made, or purported to have made, before this committee the other day that made it necessary for this committee to hear a statement made by Mr. Mott. I myself was not present when you were reputed to have made the statement severely criticizmg him and expressing an opinion that it was for the benefit of the Indians of Oklahoma that his contract had not been approved. Now, while I do not think this is really a proper matter of inquiry by this com- mittee, if such statements were made by a Member of Congress, re- flecting either upon the integrity or efficiency of an officer, it is proper that this committee should hear them, but I do not think it lies in your mouth to say that you dismiss the whole matter after having brought out all this discussion. You have heard his statement that he was dismissed because through his efficiency and diligence he had incurred the antagonism of the local courts. If that statement is true it is not very much to the credit of anybody connected with the transaction. Representative Davenport. Very well, if the committee please. My statement related to a contract and not about the investigation before the Secretary of the Interior at all, and that is what I was com- ing to. INDIAN APPEOPBIATION BILL. 665 My statement made the other day — which is in the record, or will be when the manuscript is printed— was, and I woukl not now under- take to be accurate as to what I said then, but I will gixi^ it in substance, as I see it now and saw it w^a>- back in the Sixtieth Congress. In the Sixty-second Congress, if it had not been for the two sets of contracts, in my judgment, the Committee on Indian Affairs in the House would have reported out a bill— whether it would have gotten through the House or not I do not say - and i gave the names of the firms of Butler & Vaile and Kappler & Merrilat, and I said that Mr. Mott was the national Creek attorney at that time, and I have no hesitancy now in giving my reason for saying that, and that was that in the hearings it was developed that at one session of Congress what was known as the Sam Powell contract had been before the Indian Com- mittee of the House, and I thought either Mr. Kappler or one of his firm had appeared for a specific purpose on the Powell contract side of it. What interest the>" had in it I do not sa\ , but it developed in the hearing as to what were the circumstances of their employment. Later on it developed that Mr. Mott, who was the then attorney for the Creek Nation, nad gone to the Creek council that had met in its capital in the Creek Nation and had there gotten through contracts (drawing the resolution, he stated, himself) employing Butler & Vaile and Kappler & Merrilat to represent the nation in the matter of the equalization for whatever of their funds were sufficient to equalize to the amount of SI, 040, which was the standard allotment. In the Sixty-second Congress every time there was a hearing in the Indian Committee Mr. Mott was present and he never, at any time, said that the Creek national attorney would bring that suit. I introduced a bill by request, mentioning the firms of Kappler & Merrilat and Butler & Vaile, and a copy of that contract was brought to my office by Capt. Grayson and Mr. Mott. Then, I wrote one myself, of which I mailed you gentlemen a copy the other day — pro- viding that suit should be brought by the Creek national attorney, to be brought in the name of the Creek Nation, verified by the governor or chief of that tribe. I did not get that bill through the Sixty-second Congress, and reintroduced it in the Sixty-third. At no time during that time did Mr. Mott ever come before the committee and say that he, as the attorney for the Creek Nation, would bring a suit, or could bring it. He was being paid a stipulated salary out of the Creek funds; he was being paid his expenses away from home, and I beheved then, as I do now, that the Creek national attorney ought to bring that suit and not incur any expenses for recovery, if any should be had. . • t Senator KoBiNSON. I am not reflecting on you. The question I asked has eficited your answer, but I am curious to know what the matter that you inject— this controversy— has to do with this bill. Is it germane ? , , i ^ j.r, ^ i 4. a Representative Davenport. I injected only that part that related to this amendment which the committee will consider, if it has not considered it before to-day, before I got here, in which there is a proposition permitting the Creek people to sue m the Court ol Claims to test out whether or not under the treaties there should be an ap- propriation made by the Government to recover a judgment agamst the United States for a sufficient amount of funds to equahze their aUotments up to a standard of 11,040 after the fund they have m the 666 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Treasury has been exhausted, and that was my statement the other day, and it did not relate to the business transactions of the past in any way whatever, and that is the only statement that I have to make, because this amendment is coming up and I do insist that Judge AUen, or I insist that Mr. Mott, or anyone else who might be Creek national attorney, ought to bring that suit on behalf of the people, because they are getting a salary to do it. They are com- petent to do it, and they should do so. 1 do not believe there ought to be any contracts providing for a per cent out of recovery, but I thmk the attorneys for the Creeks ought to be permitted to bring that suit whether they have any right to recover or not. It is a question as to their treaty right. Mr. Mott. May I ask a question. Is not the trouble not the bringing of the suit, but getting the consent of Congress to go to the Court of Claims ? Is that not the trouble ? Representative Davenport. Well, that is the amendment that is here pending, as I understand, if the committee has not acted upon it to-day, and T would be glad to see the amendment go in here, giving them the right to go to the Court of Claims. Senator Fall. Do you want it restricted, so that they can not employ any other attorneys at their own expense at aU? The attorney that they have as tribal attorney might need assistance. Representative Davenport. I think the tribal attorney is com- petent to bring it and he ought to do it. Senator Fall. You would not do it in your own private business. If you thought you wanted more than one attorney, you would want to employ him. Representative Davenport. In my own private business, if I hired an attorney and paid him so much, I would feel that he was competent to attend to my business, and if I found that he was not I would discharge him and get aiiother attorney. He is being paid a stipulated salary. Senator Fall. Of course, it is a matter of judgment, but in the event you had a lawsuit and had a regularly retained attorney by the year would you think you should be precluded by law from emplo3nLng another attorney at your own expense to represent you in a particular suit ? Representative Davenport. Not if I were untrammeled, but if we are going to represent these people as guardians we ought to protect their funds. Senator Robinson. Mr. Chairman, I move that we take up the bill. The Chairman. Are you through, Mr, Davenport ? Representative Davenport. Yes, sir. STATEMENT OF HON. CHARLES D. CARTER, A MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA. Representative Carter. Mr. Chairman, I have something of a personal matter of privilege that I want to bring to the attention of the committee. I had not expected to be called upon to say any- thing to this committee to-day and I am sorry to have to obtrude myseK upon you, and but for the coming of the second Messiah I do INDIAN APPROPBIAIION BILL. 667 not believe I would have been called upon to say anything with respect to this second crucifixion. I appeared at the department and asked that Mr. Mott not be appointed as attorney for the Creeks. The statement that he has made to you gentlemen was made, if it was ever made at all, not in my presence, and I was there at every meeting, and there was nothing said except what was said in the public hearing. The gentleman has done what he is such an adroit master at doing— he has distorted a statement which was made and exaggerated it into something which means a great deal more than anyone intended to say, or that anyone did say. What was said was this: That Mr. Mott had created such a feeling of antipathy among these people who had jurisdiction of the settlement of mherited estates in Oklahoma that it was thought his presence as an attorney, and his taking part in those cases, would tear down and completely ruin the good sentiment that had been built up by the commissioner on his last trip down there. The difference in the manner in which Mi\ Mott approached this matter and in which the Commissioner of Indian Affairs approached it was that of a friendly grasp of the hand and a slap in the face. The courts of Oklahoma have full jurisdiction m all probate matters, and I am as much interested in protecting these people as any man on the face of the earth, and they can only be protected in the courts of Oklahoma because there is where the jurisdiction rests. I do not want to antagonize those courts in any manner. I want them to get along on the best of terms by those who are trying to protect the Indians, to wit, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Secretary of the Interior, and I felt that the appointment of Mr. Mott, after his action in the past, would be like throwing a firebrand into a powder magazine. Now, I had several other reasons why I did not want Mr. Mott appointed. The first was that he had been the Creek national attor- ney ever since have been in Congress, and if he had ever turned his hand at any single time for the benefit of the Creek people, it had escaped my notice. He stated he was responsible. He stated he was responsible for litigation — I would not say litigation — it w^as to set aside the law making the estates of the Indians in Oklahoma taxable. He made that same contention before the Secretary of the Interior, and according to his own admission there, and I think you will find from the printed testimony, also, he claims responsibiUty for the act that made the land taxable. Now, the only time Mr. Mott appeared before a committee of which I have been a member— and I have been a mem^ber of the Indian Committee since most of my service in Congress— was the one time which my colleague, Mr. Davenport, told you of, and that was in the matter that is coming up, for the Creek equalization, and the burden of his argument then was to settle a fee on certain attorneys rather than to go through the Creek equalization matter. I have no antipathy to Mr. Mott; I have not made any accusations against him of corruption, or anything else, but I do not think he did his duty as Creek attorney, and therefore I voted against him, and I did not tell the Secretary, nor did anyone else in my presence tell theSecretary, that the Oklahoma delegation would not cooperate with him in protecting the Indians if Mr. Mott was appointed. I thank you, gentlemen. 668 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Ml*. Allen. Mr. Chaii'man, may I make a short statement ? I will promise to be brief. In the statements here it has appeared that I have been the bene- ficiary of this fight between Mi\ Mott and the Congi-essmen, and in order that I might be properly understood, and appear in the proper light before this committee, I want to say that I took no part in the Mott fight. The papers in my home town came out every evening and morning giving my position one way and another upon the Mott inquiry. Finally it was stated before the Secretary of the Interior that I had indorsed Mr. Mott, and that was pubUshed. I simply wired the Secretary of the Interior that I indorsed Mi\ Mott's conduct^ before the gTand jury that I called in the city of Wagoner; that I was* not indorsing him or any other man for appointment as Creek attor- ney. I had no idea of being appointed. I was not a candidate for appointment and I had never been suggested that I knew of, and finally dm-ing the- last days of that inquiry I received a telegram from Mr. Sells to come to Washington. I came here and went into his office without any knowledge or intimation of what I was beii^g called here for and he there tendered to me the appointment as Creek national attorney. I went with Mr. SeUs then to Secretary Lane's ofiice. The Secretary called for Chief Tiger, Capt. Grayson, and Mr. Mott. They came into the Secretary's office and there I said to the Secretary: ''I am not sure that I will accept this appointment. I am incUned to accept it. I am wiUing to enter into the contract provided that it is satisfactory to everybody." I knew the Oklahoma delegation, every man on it was my friend. I have the highest regard for the integrity and abiUty of every man representing the State of Oklahoma in Congi'ess. Now, gentlemen, a bad situation has been pictured here of the con- ditions existing in the probate courts of Oklahoma. Mr. Sells was down in Oklahoma recently. I never saw anything in my life as enthusiastic as the greeting he received at Muskogee, and at every other place he visited. It was like a big revival meeting. It was apparent to every man who attended those meetings that the citizen- snip of Oklahoma, as well as the county judges who were assembled, were in favor of purif^dng the conditions that have heretofore existed in the county courts of that State. The Chairman. We will now recur Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, before the committe dismisses this subject I would like to call attention to House Document No. 758, Sixty-third Congress, second session, which contains the rules of pro- cedure in connection with probate estates of the Indians in the Five • Civilized Tribes, and also some resolutions which were adopted by the county judges' association while Commissioner Sells was in Oklahoma recently. I might say that the probate situation in Oklahoma, in connection with the estates of Indians, has not been satisfactory. Those estates have been charged entirely too much during the last few years in connection with the administration of their affairs. The records show that in some cases the expenses have been as high as 20 per cent of the amount of the estate of the Indian. We have had in Oklahoma a large number of officials of the Indian bureau and a number of attorneys who have up to recently failed to correct this condition. Commissioner Sells visited Oklahoma about three months INDIAN APPROPEIATIOX BILL. 669 ago, and h*^, by his efforts, got the county judgrs and the local authori- ties to reach an agreement as to the method that should be pursued in handling these Indian probate cases. Those rules and regulations are set out in this document. It only contains eight pages, and con- tains full information concerning this whole subject, and in view of the fact that this matter has been given so much publicity I would like to have inserted in the record those rules of procedure and this document showing how the matter is going to be handled and is being handled at this time. The Chairman. In the absence of objection that matter will be inserted in the record. The matter referred to is as follows: (House Document No. 758. Sixty- third Congress, second session.] Rules of Procedure, Five Civilized Tribes — Rules of Procedure in Probate Matters Adopted by the County Judges of the Five Civilized Tribes Por- tion OF Oklahoma, Together With the R-esolutions and Statements op Approval Thereto Attached. Hon. William H. Murray, of Oklahoma, submitted to the House, to be printed as a public document, the rules and statements hereinafter; and he states for the purpose of providing a plan of cooperation between the 40 county judges in the east half of Oklahoma and the department, together with the probate attorneys and field clerks representing the Indians and the department, to the end that there may be an effi- cient, speedy, economical, and honest administration and probate of Indian estates, including the following: First. Resolutions of procedure in probate matters adopted by the county judges of the Cherokee, Creek, and Seminole Nations at Muskogee, and by the county judges of the Choctaw Nation at McAlester and of the Chickasaw Nation at Ardmore, and as revised and agreed to by each association and approved with the certificate of ap- proval by the County Judges' Association of Oklahoma. Second. Certificate of the secretary of the Oklahoma State Bar Association indors- ing the changes in rules and procedure as hereinbefore made. Third. Resolutions unanimously adopted by the county judges of the Cherokee, Creek, and Seminole Nations at Muskogee. Fourth. Resolutions adopted by a meeting of the county judges of the Choctaw N^ation at ^ioA-lester Fifth. Resolutions adopted by the county judges of the Cliickasaw Nation at Ardmore. , ^. .., Mr. Murray, of Oklahoma. Mr. Speaker, in presenting these rules, together with the resolutions of approval by the county judges' association and the State bar asso- ciation, it is with an assurance that the frauds in the probate of Indian estates pub- lished to the world will not again occur. These resolutions on the part of the county judges' association is sufficient proof of the integrity of the county judges on the east side of our State, and I but bespeak the integrity of the citizenship both Indian and white, who elected these judges and who stand behind and applaud their ettorts. The Hon. Cato Sells, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, has performed a distinctive service in securing this cooperation in this, that he has united the forces who stand for honesty and integrity, and has aided them in an effective orgamzation to combat an organized element of graft and greed always prevalent where much property is involved and possible to obtain. These resolutions, which are among the best that possibly could be framed for any State, are the work of the county judges themselves, and will constitute proof positive that the citizenship of Oklahorna, chafing, as they are, under the unsavory notoriety of certain of their public officials-a mere incident to a new and rapidly developing population-has reached that Period wherein t^^^^^ are determined to elect to every public office only men of known honesty sobnety and character, and behind this movement stand all the moral forces of our State and they heartily approve and applaud the work both ot Commissioner Sells and the county judges. 670 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Rules of Procedure in Probate Matters Adopted by the County Judges of THE Five Civilized Tribes' Portion of Oklahoma. rule 1. The days of each month are hereby set apart and designated as the dates on which the court will hear guardians' reports, provided that such reports have been on file and notice given as provided in rule 3. rule 2, All guardians are required to make annual or semiannual reports, unless otherwise directed, under oath, showing fully and completely the description, character, kind, and value of all property held for their wards. All items of receipts and disbursements ^ must be in detail and receipts produced and filed for sums paid out. All securities and assets should be listed in each report and copies of deeds, mortgages, etc., evidencing same, recorded and attached thereto as exhibits. Upon an approval of any order of court to invest the funds of a ward, guardians shall attach to their reports copies of evidence of title or other investment. The date and amount of guardians' bond, pre- mium paid, if any, as well as the names, addresses, and solvency of sureties thereon, must be given. The name, age, «sex of the ward, and relationship, if any, to the guardian should be stated, and the school advantages disclosed. All reports must be self-explanatory. A failure or refusal to file reports as due will be grounds for removal. RULE 3. Upon the filing of the reports and fixing of the date for hearing thereof, the judge shall cause notice to be given of the date of such hearing to the person having custody of the ward, the representative of the Interior Department, or the probate attorney, at least 10 days before the date of the hearing. Any person or persons interested may appear and make objections, if so desired, to the approval of such reports and offer evi- dence to support such objections. RULE 4. No receipt from the ward upon the final accounting of a guardian will be accepted or considered unless the ward be brought into open court, and upon the hearing of said final receipt, the stenographic notes shall be transcribed and a copy thereof filed with the papers in the case. In the consideration of any reports, annual or final, any item included in any previous report may be reviewed. RULE 5. Petitions for the sale of land of minors and incompetents will be heard of each month. On the hearing of petitions for sale the guardian, person in custody, and the ward himself, when over 14 years of age, must be present, and must be exam- ined as to the necessity for said sale and the truth of the allegations of the petition, and furnish such additional evidence as the court may require. The evidence offered must be taken down and transcribed and a copy thereof filed with the papers in the case. No bid will be considered by the court unless a certified check m the amount of 10 per cent of the amount of the bid be deposited either in court or with the guardian offering the land for sale. RULE 6. In the sale of minors' lands or minois' interest in land, the guardians shall be required to render to the court, for its approval, before confirmation of sale, an account of sale, showing each item of expense incurred in such sale, and in no case shall abstract fees be charged against the minor's estate except by a special agreement with the court at or prior to the time of filing bid. Confirmation will not be had except on the . RULE 7. Under the sale of real estate by guardian no fees in excess of the following shedule of fees will be allowed attorneys: On the first $500 or less 10 From $500 to $1,500, inclusive 5 From $1,500 to $3,000, inclusive - ' 2 For all above $3,000 ' " ' i INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. 671 But in no case shall the fee exceed the sum of $300. The minimum fee will be $25, unless the court, in granting the petition for the sale, shall stipulate that the fee and costs incident thereto shall be borne by the purchaser. RULE 8, No petition for the sale of ward's property, or voucher for the payment by the Interior Department of money to the guardian, will be considered if said guardian is delinquent in making reports or filing inventory as required by law. RULE 9. No oil and gas, or other mineral lease, covering lands belonging to minors or in- competents will be approved except after sale in open court to the highest and best responsible bidder. All petitions for the approval of oil and gas leases shall be filed at least five days before the same are sold, as provided herein, and notice of such sale must be given by posting and by publication, where publication is practicable, and shall be on of each week. ' RULE 10. Deeds conveying inherited lands of full-blood Indian heirs shall be approved only on the verified petitions of grantors, which shall set forth the names of the parties, description of the land, roll number of the decedent, and grantors and quantum of blood, the permanent residence of the deceased allottee at the time of death, and the character and extent of the interest sold. Said petitions shall be set down for hearing not less than 10 days from the date of filing, and on one of the two days hereinbefore provided for the confirmation of sale by guardian, advertised in the county where the land is located for one week, and probate attorney or local attorney for the tribe . of which the grantor is a member shall be notified upon the filing of the petition. Said land shall be appraised and testimony of disinterested parties may be required as t^ the value of the land conveyed when deemed necessary by the court. The grantors shall be present and be examined in open coiu-t and before such deeds shall be approved, and the court must be satisfied that the consideration has been paid in full in the presence of the court. No petition will be considered when any deed has been pre- viously placed of record upon the land or taken within 30 days after the death of the allottee. The evidence taken shall be transcribed by the stenographer and filed of record in the case, the expense of which, including attorneys' fees, must be borne by the grantee, When it shall appear for the best interests of the Indian, approval will be withheld unless the grantor agrees in writing for the deposit of the proceeds derived from the sale of the land, to be expended subject to the approval of the county court. RULE 11. Guardians shall not expend for or on accoimt of their wards any sum unless first authorized by the court, except in case of sickness of the ward, or other emergency, in which event notice must be given immediately to the court. RULE 12. The national attorney, or any of the probate attorneys for the Five Civilized Tribes, or the representative of the Department of the Interior (or department of justice in the Seminole Nation) will be recognized in any matter involving the person or prop- erty of a citizen of such nation . RULE 13. Trust funds must be deposited by the guardian as trustee, and not to his personal account, and where an individual is guardian for several persons or estates the accounts shall be deposited and kept separate and apart. RULE 14. In the settlement of a guardian's account, where the guardian is the parent of the ward no allowance will be made from the ward's estate for board and keep, except it is made to appear a positive injustice would result from the enforcement of such rule, and unless said parent is unable to support said ward. 672 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. RULE 15. All guardians shall be required to secure loans for funds in their hands belonging to their wards, with real-estate first-mortgage security, not to exceed 50 per cent valua- tion of the land, approved by the county court, for such length of time as will insure the collection of the principal and interest before the arriving at majority of the wards. RULE 16. No will or other instrument purporting to be a will covering the lands of a restricted Indian of the Five Civilized Tribes, whether such land be his individual allotment or inherited land, when submitted by the allottee or other person to the proper pro- bate court, as required under existing law, shall receive the acknowledgment of nor be admitted to probate by such probate court until after notice shall have been given to the local probate or tribal attorneys for the tribes or for the Department of the In- terior, or a representative thereof. RULE 17. These rules shall also apply to executorships and administrations in so far as they are applicable, especially inasmuch as sales of property and accountings are con- cerned. RULE 18. All advertisements not requii*ed by law may be waived with the consent of the county court upon the approval of the probate attorney or tribal attorney. January 9, 1914. The above and foregoing rules were recently promulgated by the county judges of the counties of the Creek, Cherokee, Seminole, Choctaw, and Chickasaw Nations, con- stituting the Five Civilized Tribes in Oklahoma, and meet with my hearty approval. N. M. Williams, County Judge, Grady County, President County Judges'' Association, of Oklahoma, Oklahoma City, January 12, 1914. Hon. Cato Sells, CoTYvmissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Dear Sir: At the annual meeting of the Oklahoma State Bar Association held in Oklahoma City, Okla., in December, 1913, the committee on jurisprudence and law reform submitted the following recommendation, which was unanimously adopted: "We favor radical reform in the probate procedure of this State, looking to the decrease in the expense of administering estates and guardianships, and to the speedy settling up of such estates, and to the further end that the property of estates of dece- dents, and especially minors, be safeguarded by more rigid rules.'*' W. A. Lybrand, Secretary of the Oklahoma State Bar Association. Resolution Unanimously Adopted at a Meeting of the County Judges of THE Cherokee, ( January 5, 1914. THE Cherokee, Creek, and Seminole Nations Held at Muskogee, Okla., WTiereas Hon. Cato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, has called a conference With the county judges of the Creek, Cherokee, and Seminole Nations, at Muskogee, Okla., on January 5, 1914, in which conference he has impressed us with the earnest- ness and_ interest he has in the welfare of the Indians of this country and of his great desire to cooperate with the county courts, and has appointed probate attorneys to assist the county judges in the discharge of their duties and to assist them in every way possible in the protection of the estates of minors and deceased persons: There- fore be it Resolved, That we, the county judges of easteTn Oklahoma in conference asseinbled, express our hearty appreciation to the Hon. Cato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs) INDIAN" APPROPRIATION BILL. 673 for the assistance that he has tendered ns in the appointment of probate attorneys to cooperate with the probate courts to the end that the estates of minors and deceased persons may be better protected; and be it further Resolved, That we desire to say that his assistance, and the assistance of his sub- ordinates, is most heartily welcomed. We appreciate the spirit in which he has come among us and the earnest, patriotic address delivered to us upon the occasion of our being assembled in conference; and be it further Resolved, That we, as such county judges, hereby pledge our hearty support and cooperation in the carrying out of his policy, to the end that equity and justice may be given to the Indian people, and will gladly welcome the assistance of department and his attorneys. Resolution Unanimously Adopted at a Meeting of the County Judges of THE Choctaw Nation Held at McAlester, Okla., January 6, 1914. Whereas we welcome as the dawning of a new day the coming among us of the honor- able Commissioner of Indian Affairs to study our great problems at first hand; and Whereas we confidently believe that as a direct result of his study of our conditions at first hand, and the copoerative spirit manifested by him, great and lasting good will result both to the Indian and white citizen alike; and Whereas it is our earnest desire to cooperate with him to the end that his policies, which look to the speedy, honest, and economical settlement of our Indian affairs, be effectively carried out: Therefore be it Resolved, First, that we do express our deep appreciation to the commissioner for his visit, and the earnest and purposeful manner in which he approaches the considera- tion of our problems; second, that we do express to him our earnest purpose to Cor- dially cooperate with him to the end that his policies may be speedily and efficiently carried out; third, that we consider it a reason for congratulation, that we desire to express, that the national administration in its wisdom selected such an earnest, capable, purposeful. Christian genetleman as Commissioner Sells to be the heod of the Indian Bureau of our Nation. Resolution Unanimously Adopted at a Meeting of the County Judges of the Chickasaw Nation Held at Ardmore, Okla., January 7, 1914. Whereas, being sensible of the desire of all concerned and the necessity that the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs have first-hand information of the great Indian problems of this State; and Whereas we are sincerely convinced that such information, together with the co- operative spirit manifested by him, will result in invaluable good; and Whereas we desire to cooperate with him in putting into force and effect his policies looking toward an honest administration of Indian affairs, to the end that justice will be meted out: Therefore, be it Resolved, First, that we tender to the commissioner our sincere appreciation of his visit and the earnest, frank, patriotic expression of his purpose in approaching these common problems; second, that we tender and pledge to him our cooperation with him to speedily and efficiently carry out effectively his policies; third, that we con- gratulate ourselves that the national administration has selected for Commissioner of Indian Affairs a citizen who possesses the qualifications, of honesty, earnestness of purpose, industry, ability, vitality, and firmness in such a degree as that that charac- terizes Commissioner Sells, Resolution Unanimously Adopted at a Conference of the County Judges of the Cherokee, Creek, and Seminole Nations Held at Muskogee, Okla., on January 5, 1914, and at a Conference of the County Judges of the Choctaw Nation Held at McAlester on January 6, 1914, and at a Confer- ence OF THE County Judges op the Chickasaw Nation Held at Ardmore on January 7, 1914. Whereas by an act of Congress approved May 27, 1908, the county judges of Okla- homa were given jurisdiction to approve deeds executed by full-blood Indian heirs of the Five Civilized Tribes; and . . i ^ • Whereas in said act in conferring this jurisdiction no provision was made confernng upon said courts or upon any other officer or authonty the power to supervise and control the expenditure of the proceeds of the sale of such inherited lands; and 674 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Whereas great frauds have been perpetrated upon such heirs in the handling and disposition of such proceeds and no adequate authority now exists whereby these funds may be conserved for their benefit; and Whereas the incompetence of such heirs which makes the approval of deeds by them by said courts necessary to their protection, also makes imperative the estabhsh- ment of some adequate means whereby such funds may be conserved: Therefore be it Resolved hy tfu county judges of Oklahoma from the counties comprising the Five Civ- ilized Tribes, now in session in Muskogee, Okla., at the call of Eon. Cato Sells, Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs, That it is the expressed sense of this meeting that the Depart- ment of the Interior tlirough its Commissioner of Indian Affairs recommends to Con- gress the passage of a law so amending the act of May 27, 1908, as to provide that the county courts of Oklahoma shall have the power to supervise and control the proceeds of the sale of such lands, to the end that they may be conserved for the benefit of such heirs, and that the Oklahoma delegation in Congress be requested to* initiate and support legislation in Congress to accomplish this purpose. Representative Davenport. I wish you would insert in the record the date that the commissioner visited Oklahoma, so that it will show that it antedated any controversy. Senator Gronna. He just stated about three months ago. Eepresentative Davenport. I think the commissioner can give it more accurately. Mr. Meritt. It was right after the hoHdays in January of this year. Representative Davenport. He reached Muskogee on the 31st of December or the 1st of January. Senator Town send. I want to ask, in connection with this matter, to have printed as part of the record these reports of Mr. Mott, made in November, 1912, to which reference has been made. There being no objection, the matter is inserted in the record, as follows : REPORT OF M. L. MOTT. Muskogee, Okla., November ^7, 1912. The honorable the Secretary of the Interior, Washington, D. C. Sir: The report which I here submit relates directly to the administration of the affairs of the minor members of the Creek Tribe of Indians in the probate courts of Oklahoma under the jm-isdiction over such matters conferred upon said courts by the a-:t of Congress of May 27, 1908. Before proceeding with the facts and details with which the report deals, I think it appropriate to make a brief reference to my position when this matter was under consideration heretofore by Congress and the department in the winter of 1907 and 1908, when the subject was first dealt with after statehood. It was my opinion at that time, as freely expressed to the department and as represented to the committees of Congress, that the best interests of the Indians would not be subserved by con- ferring the administration of the probate affairs upon the local courts in Oklahoma. My convictions then were due to my observation and knowledge of such matters, which had led me to the conclusion that the Indians' interest can not be properly and adequately protected when administered in tribunals subject entirely to local environments and influences. This well-recognized fact has from the beginning been the ground upon which Federal jurisdiction has been maintained over the Indian and his affairs, and this fact has been recognized by the Supreme Court of the United States from the time of Chief Justice Marshall to the present day, and this is true re- gardless of the locality or State in which the affairs are administered. The act of May 27, 1908, was the first act pertaining to these affairs passed by Congress after statehood. While that act was pending in Congress and at the time a report upon same was under consideration by the department, I took the position that if practicable to do so, or, in other words, if there were not insurmountable constitutional objections, there should be created and provided a special Federal jurisdiction over the probate affairs of the Indians in Oklahoma, insisting at that time that the probate affairs of the Indians could not be administered to their best interests in purely local tribunals INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 675 and tvithout Federal supervision. My position, however, on these matters waa strongly antagonized at the time by all the members of the Oklahoma delegation, in Congress, and I likewise found myself without the support of the other officers and attorneys representing tl^e other Indian tribes in this State. However, the force of my position was at that time appreciated by the department, and as a practical and possible solution the department recommended a provision for district agents, to be appointed by the Secretary, whose duties it should be to give to the Indian all possible assistance consistent with the jurisdiction of the probate courts in the administration and management of his probate affairs and to report and keep the Secretary advised upon those matters. While this agency force has been of ^reat value to the Indians, especially in the assistance given the full bloods and restricted Indians, in the man- £^ement of their affairs, as the following report will show, it has nevertheless been totally inadequate to the protection of the Indians in the administration of probate matters purely, which I think is partially due to the inadequacy of the plan itself under existing laws and conditions in Oklahoma. Prior to this time there has never been prepared and promulgated any complete report of the administration of the probate affairs of the Indians under the jurisdiction given the Oklahoma courts in the said act of 1908. I have for a long while been of the opinion that no correct understanding of the situation could be had without such a report and record. As long as two years ago, when the district agents were assembled here in a body for the purpose of making reports, conferring, etc., in regard to their work, I went before them and urged the necessity of their goin^ into the records of the various probate courts throughout the five tribes and preparing correct and com- ?lete data as to the administration of the affairs of the Indians in those courts. This thought was necessary for the proper information of the department, and Congress as well. No action, however, was had on the suggestion leading to anything more than a report on an isolated case here and there, which, of course, is not sufficient as a basis of any general deduction or conclusion. Subsequently and about a year ago at a similar meeting of the agents I renewed the suggestion for a full report on the ad- ministration of the probate matters, which was likewise never carried out except to the limited extent above referred to. Still being confident that such a report waa necessary to an understanding of the whole situation, on September 5, this year, I submitted to the department, for approval by the President, a supplemental contract authorizing the expenditure under my supervision of a sum not exceeding $5,000 be- tween that date and the 30th day of June, 1913, in investigating the administration of probate affairs of the Indians in the Creek Nation, making report thereof, etc., and for taking other steps for the protection of minors. This supj)lemental contract was approved and proceedings thereunder began at once. I have in the preparation of the report here submitted expended ai)proximatel> the sum of $2,500 in compiling data from the records of the various counties. The general plan of the work, mapped out under the authority of said supplemental contract, was to ascertain from the records of the courts in the various counties, the names of' the minors whose affairs are being administered, name of guardian, amount handled, sale of lands, allotted or inherited, fees allowed the attorneys for the guard- ians, court costs, fees allowed guardians, and the total cost of administration. Ac- companying this report is submitted exhibits in the form of bound volumes, one for each county, which includes the data, taken from the probate records pertaining to every guardianship case in the county where reports and settlements of guardians have been made. The correctness of the matter contained in these exhibits is verified by the affidavit of the party employed to compile the data, each affidavit showing that the report is a correct statement of facts appearing upon the official records of such conrta; and for the purpose of comparison, and that only, data has been taken m each county from the administration of guardianship matters where white people alone were concerned. -r-, -^ ■ i • i. xi. The information submitted is divided into three classes: First, cases m which the administration has been in the hands of professional guardians (by which is meant a class of persons who make acting as guardians a business to a large extent); second, where the administration has been in the hands of competent relatives or business men; third (for the mere purpose of comparison), the guardianships m cases where white minors only are involved. ,.-,.r- ,xx„- at,,« I now call attention to the facts pertaining to guardianship of minors estates in Mus- kogee County Okla., since statehood, so far as the records of same were avaUable, the data of which will be found in Exhibit A submitted herewith: ^ , . ^, , „ It will be found that in this county 584 guardianships are in the hands of the class of professional guardians. 39746— PT 2—14 ^17 676 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. The amount handled by this class is $1, 172, 000.65 The amount of attorneys' fees paid is 120, 350. 78 The amount of court costs 43, 090. 57 The amount of guardian fees 72, 503. 91 Total expejise of guardianship 235, 945. 26 Cost of administration 20.13 per cent of the amount handled. It will be seen also that 112 guardianships are in the hands of competent guardians. The amount handled by this ^^^' ^^ Total cost of administration 8, 463. 12 678 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Cost of administration, 4 per cent of the amount handled . These two claaaee include only guardianships of tribal minors in this county. - • v, u • There are 24 guardianships of white minors reported in this exhibit, the same being the only available guardianships of this class from the records of Tulsa County. Amount handled $67, 568. 19 Attorney fees 897. 15 Court costs 695. 74 Guardian fees 100.00 Total expense of guardianship 1, 692. 89 Cost of administration, 2.5 per cent of the amount handled. The oflBcial data with reference to guardianship of minors' estates in Creek County will be found in Exhibit E, submitted herewith. ... * It will be found that the professional guardians have 245 guardianships in charge in this county. Amount of funds handled $431, 386. 05 Attorney fees paid 29, 050. 30 Court costs 9, 507. 23 Guardian fees 40,631.47 Total expense of administration 79, 189. 00 Cost of administration, 18.3 per cent of the amount handled. There are 86 guardianships in the hands of competent guardians. The amount handled by this class is $579, 165. 62 Attorney fees paid 5, 967. 83 Court costs 3, 915. 20 Guardian fees 11,494.48 Total expense of guardianship 21, 377. 51 Cost of administration, 3.6 per cent of the amount handled. These two clasfles include only guardianships of tribal minors. In this exhibit there will be found 22 guardianships of white minors, being the number available from the records of Creek County. The amount handled $15, 858. 02 Attorney fees 459. 25 Court costs 207. 51 Guardian fees 374. 45 Total expense of guardianship 1, 041. 21 Cost of administration, 6.5 per cent of the amount handled. I now call attention to the facts pertaining to the guardianship of minors' estates in Okmulgee County, Okla., since statehood, so far as the records of same are available, the data of which will be found in Exhibit F. The class of professional guardians have 320 guardianahips in charge in this county. Amount of funds handled by this class $662, 005. 31 Attorney fees 49, 056. 83 Court costs 8, 468. 75 Guardian fees 56, 231. 03 Total expense of guardianship 113, 756. 61 Cost of administration, 18.2 per cent of the amount handled. It will be seen that there are 50 guardianships in the hands of competent guaTdiaMs. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 679 The amount handled $86, 013. 14 Attorney fees 1, 105. 93 Court coats 801. 38 Guardian fees 947. 76 Total expense of guardianship 2, 855. 06 Cost of administration, 3.3 per cent of the amount handled. Guardianships of tribal minors only are included in these two classes. In this exhibit will be found seven guardianships of white minors, this being all the white guardianships available from the records of this county. Amount handled by this class $7, 259. 15 Attorney fees paid 128. 00 Court costs 52. 50 • Total expense of guardianship 180. 5 Cost of administration, 2.4 per cent of the amount handled. In Exhibit G, submitted herewith, will be found the facts relative to the guar- dianships of minors' estates in Okfuskee County. In this county there are 148 guardianships in the hands of the professional guardian. Amount of funds handled $136, 860. 24 Attorney fees paid 11, 153. 63 Court costs 5, 096. 14 Guardian fees 8, 853. 40 Total expense of guardianship 25, 103. 17 Cost of administration, 18.3 per cent of the amount handled. In this exhibit will also be found 59 guardianships in the hands of competent guardians. Amount handled by this class $33, 756. 26 Attorney fees 1, 395. 12 Court costs 459. 37 Guardian fees 136. 50 Total expense of guardianship 1, 990. 99 Cost of administration, 5.8 per cent of the amount handled. These two classes , include only guardianships of tribal minors. There is no report on the guardianships of white minors included in this exhibit, there being no such guardianships available from the records of Okfuskee County. I call attention next to Exhibit H, which contains the official data relative to minor guardianships in Hughes County, Okla. It will be found that in this county there are 133 guardianships in the hands of the class of professional guardians. Amount of funds handled $117, 398. 64 Amount of attorney fees paid 9, 804. 98 Amount of court costs 3, 244. 93 Amount of guardian fees paid - 8, 783. 65 Total expense of guardianship 21, 833. 56 Cost of administration, 1S.5 per cent of the amount handled. It will also be found that theje are 17 guardianships m the hands of competent guardians : Amount of funds handled by this class $33, 683. 42 Attorney fees paid 1' ^^^- ^ Court costs:.. ::..■ f|^.8& ;iGuardian fees paid ^^^^ ^^ Total expense of guardiansliip 2, 520. 83 680 INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. Cost of administration, 7.4 per cent of the amount handled. In these two classes are included only guardianships of tribal minors. In Exhibit H will be found 10 guardianships reported of white minors, the same being the number available from the records of Hughes County. Amount of funds handled by this class $9, 695. 06 Attorney fees paid 122. 84 Court costs 1' 2. 79 Guardian fees 49. 50 Total expense of guardianship 345. 13 Cost of administration, 3.5 per cent of the amount handled. Summing up the aggregate of the eight counties in the Creek Nation we find that the , total number of professional guardianships is 2,320. Total amount of funds handled $3, 896, 693. 06 -■■L — * ^^ Total amount of attorney fees 346, 095. 39 Total court costs 138, 205. 46 Total guardian fees 279,182.49 Total expense of guardianship 763, 483. 34 Total cost of administration, 19.3 per cent of the amount handled. The total num- ber of competent guardianships is 534. Total amount of funds handled..... $1, 346, 523.07 Total amount of attorney fees 21, 762. 41 Total court costs 11, 295. 92 Total guardian fees - 19, 972. 58 Total expense of guardianship 53, 030. 91 Total cost of administration, 3.1 per cent of the amount handled. These two classes include only guardianships of tribal minors. The total number of white guardianships is 203. Total amount of funds handled $328, 536. 00 Total amount of attorney fees 3, 117. 94 Total court costs 2, 625. 51 Total guardian fees 2, 012. 40 Total expense of guardianship 7, 755. 85 Total cost of administration, 2.3 per cent of the amount handled. The above includes all guardianship cases in the Creek Nation where the record was available, and it should be borne in mind how much this immense cost would in the aggregate have been increased had the records in the 4,339 remaining cases been available. In the foregoing there has been designated three classes of guardians, namely, the professional guardian, the relative, and the guardian of white minors. There might be as a subclass carved out of the class of professional guardians one which could be properly described as an incompetent and thoroughly irresponsible class. This class IS composed of adult members of the tribe who have dissipated or been swindled out of their own estates after the removal of restrictions who have little regard for the wards in their care and who can be and are in many instances used by others connected with the administration. I suggest, further, in this connection, that in a great many instances in the class ol professional guardians the guardians are attorneys, licensed to practice in the courts, and that the extravagance and waste in the administration, which will also be later referred to, is not due to incompetency of guardians, because men qualified to practice law, as a rule, would not be incompetent, and in cases where they are guardians the cost of administration is as high on an average or a little higher than in other cases. This report is not intended to include the management of the estates of the minors apart from the cost of administration as set forth above, because I have had neither time nor facilities to fully report upon the former question, but sufficient investigation has been made to warrant me in Baying that in a great number of instances bad man- agement and great waste have been the rule. Extravagant and totally unwarranted INDIAN APPROPRIATION BlUb. 681 allowances for maintenance and personal expenses of wards have been made, all of which can be verified by the probate records, and where the allowances are aggra- vatedly large and unnecessary the presumption is that some one other than the ward 18 getting the benefit of the excessive amount. A^ain, in addition to the above, Mr. D. H. Bynum, former chief clerk to the Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes and recently probate attorney for the district agents, has reported to me after extensive investigation that in a great number of instances large suras of money of minors have been loaned by the guardians on totally inadequate securities, many loans being made to guardians tiiemselves and members of their families, etc., and that in many in- stances the bondsmen of the guardians are totally insolvent. I also call attention here to the fact that in the eight counties of the Creek Nation there are 4,339 cases of guardianships in which the guardian has made no report, or the papers and court files are in the hands of attorneys or guardians and therefore inaccessi- ble, and in all. of these cases it has been impossible to make a report because of these facts; and I think it is quite probable that m many of these cases the administration of the affairs of the minor has been so extravagantly and wastefully^ conducted that the. parties responsible therefor have a personal interest in withholding the facts from public record and inspection as long as possible. To my mind this report in connection with the data upon which it is based reveals an appalling state of affairs with reference to the administration of the affairs of the minor members of the tribe. As pointed out above, in the administration of the estates of white minors the average cost upon the money handled is less than 2^ per cent, while the cost of administration of the estates of Indian minors amounts to the unprecedented amount of 19.3 per cent, both of which are administered in the same jurisdiction and under the same law. 1 1 is not necessary for me to comment upon this great discrepancy in the cost of administering the estates of white and tribal minors in the courts of Oklahoma. The facts speak for themselves and show a most unjust and destructive discrimination against the Indian minor. I have made this classification to answer in advance any suggestion or argument that might be made to the effect that the ex- pense of administering such matters is greater in the new State of Oklahoma because of other conditions than elsewhere, which might have been urged had the report contained no data except as to the administration of the estates of Indians. It can therefore not be contended in the face of this discrepancy that such wasteful and unjust expense in the administration of the estates of the Indian minors is due to a natural condition applicable alike to the administration of all estates. I can not, without extending this report to undue lengths, refer specifically to a great number of individual instances, and yet I can not resist pointing out a few cases as illustrations or examples. It will be seen on examination to Exhibit B, containing the abstract from the records of these matters in Wagoner County, that there are many instances where in the administration of small estates the total cost and expense of administration runs from 25 to 45 per cent upon the gross amount of the funds handled , and this is true in a great number of instances where the amount of funds handled ranges from $500 to $3,000. As an illustration of this situation, I call specific attention to the following cases reported in Exhibit B for Wagoner County: No. 458. Amount handled, $1,985, at cost of $1,467.35, or 73.8 per cent. No. 497. Amount handled, §8,385.35, at cost of $3,329.29, or 39.7 per cent. No. 812. Amount handled, $3,922, at cost of $2,777.26, or 70.8 per cent No. 884. Amount handled, $3,980, at cost of $2,172.35, or 54.5 per cent. No. 1265. Amount handled, $1,474.12, at cost of $li015.86, or 68.9 per cent I also call attention for the same purpose to the following cases found m Exhibit A for Muskogee County: No 81(a). Amount handled, $3,404.30, at cost of $1,481.68, or 43.5 per cent. No. 550. Amount handled, $11,560, at cost of $2,629.85, or 22,7 per cent. No. 626. Amount handled, $2,085, at cost of $1,494.93, or 71.2 per cent. Nos 1411-1412 Amount handled, $65,266.92, at cost of $19,315.23, or 29.4 per cent. No "ll33. Amount handled, $3,286.94, at cost of $1,721,52, or 52.3 per cent. No. 1556. Amount handled, $41,502.16, at cost of $21,953 60, or 52.8 per cent. The following cases will be found in Mcintosh County, Exhibit C: No. 32. Amount handled, $1,328.52, at cost of $937.89, or 70.5 per cent. No 310. Amount handled, $600, at cost of $305.50, or 50.9 per cent. No. 359. Amount handled, $1,960, at cost of $695 £0 or 35,4 per cent. No 428 Amount handled, $17,944.26, at cost of $3,043.07, or 16.9 per cent. No! 669: Amount handled, $1,787.50, at cost of $609 49, or 34 per cent. In Exhibit D, for Tulsa County, will be found the followmg cases: No 7 Amount handled, $14,944.37, at cost of $3,267, or 21.8 per cent. No lio Amount handled, $2,094.28, at cost of $1,274.75, or 60.8 per cent. No 273 (a) Amount handled, $9,520.12, at cost of $2,487.67, or 26.1 per cent. 682 INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. No. 273 (c). Amount handled, $29,296.76, at eost of 16,523.15, or 22.2 per cent. No. 1014 (b). Amount handled, $19,534.12, at cogt of $3,644.30, or 18.6 per cent. Exhibit E, for Creek County, contains the following cases: No. 16. Amount handled, $13,675.37, at cost of $3,099.60, or 22.6 per cent. No. 36. Amount handled, $54,968.10, at cost of $10,650.43, or 19.9 per cent. No. 182. Amount handled, $64,863.42, at cost of $11,810.59, or 18.2 per cent. (The above three cases were under the same guardianship.) No. 42. Amount handled, $1,740, at cost of $793.75, or 45.7 per cent. No. 188. Amount handled, $1,347.78, at cost of $759.37, or 56.3 per cent. The cases below will be found in Exhibit F, for OJonulgee County: No. 10. Amount handled, $8,688.21, at cost of $2,243.85, or 25.8 per cent. No. 280. Amount handled, $2,855, at cost of $1,038.82, or 36.3 per cent. No. 152. Amount handled, $1,321.50, at cost of $1,196.50, or 90.5 per cent. No. 136. Amount handled, $2,026.55, at cost of $778.95, or 38.4 per cent. No. 540. Amount handled, $2,570, at cost of $1,684.64, or 65.5 per cent. In Exhibit G, for Okfuskee County, will be found the following cases: No. 271. Amount handled, $3,270, at cost of $911.96, or 27.8 per cent. No. 237. Amount handled, $698.60, at cost of $364, or 52.1 per cent. No. 179. Amount handled, $3,208.05, at cost of $983.10, or 30.6 per cent. No. 98. Amount handled, $1,674.40, at cost of $482.57, or 28.8 per cent. I also call attention to the following cases found in Exhibit H, for Hughes County: No. 223. Amount handled, $2,372.50, at cost of $909.58, or 38.3 per cent. No. 305. Amount handled, $4,939, at cost of $1,147, or 23.2 per cent. No. 480. Amount handled, $1,950, at cost of $717.95, or 36.8 per cent. No. 984. Amount handled, $2,847.79, at cost of $744.44, or 26.2 per cent. No. 1030. Amount handled, $806.40, at cost of $407.64, or 50.5 per cent. It will thus be seen that these methods and practices apply generally throughout the Creek Nation, and while they may exist in a greater degree in one county than another, the general situation is substantially the same. It is reasonable to presurbe also that in that large number of cases, as above pointed out, to wit, 4,339, where no reports of guardians have been made and where files are out, equally bad or even worse conditions prevail. While the enormity of this extravagance and waste seems to me to be self-evident, I was not satisfied to submit the report without a showing of the comparative cost of the administration of such matters in Oklahoma and other jurisdictions. I there- upon addressed a series of letters to the courts exercising probate jurisdiction in the various States throughout the Union, and my responses to these inquiries furnish data upon the cost of administration in 30 different States, to wit, Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, •Maryland, Minnesota, Missouri, Michigan, Nebraska, New York, North Dakota, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, South Carolina, Texas, Vermont, West Virginia, and Wisconsin. I have bound together in a separate volume the reports from these different States, which is marked "Exhibit I " and submitted herewith, and will say in a general way that these repprts show that the average cost of administration in kindred matters in those jurisdictions does not exceed 3 per cent, and it is not improper to note in this connection that the administration in those States is not lower than the administration of the affairs of white minors in Oklahoma. A mere glance at the record upon which this report is based is sufl&cient to con- vince any unprejudiced mind that a great injustice and wrong is being suffered by the minors of the Indian tribes in the administration of their property affairs in the probate courts of Oklahoma, but the labor and expense of gathering tl^e data and facts in this report would have been incurred to no purpose, so far as the unrestricted members of the tribe are concerned, unless it shall lead to some plan by which their rights in the future can be protected against the continuation of these wrongs. It has been demonstrated, and this report is sufficient evidence of that fact, that the district agency plan as applied to the administration of the affairs of minors in the probate courts is inadequate for that purpose, but the opposition heretofore maintained to the agents has not been upon the ground of their inability to cope with the subject, but upon the ground that the probate courts of Oklahoma were adequate to the protec- tion of all interests coming within their jurisdiction and that the Indian minors need no assistance; but this report is a complete answer also to that position. There can be no doubt that the district agents have been of great service to the department in the administration and handling of the affairs of the restricted Indians and property under the jurisdiction of the Secretary, but as to Indians from whom restrictions are removed whose matters come in these courts, as shown in the report, these agents have not been able to give them the proper protection, though without them the situation might have been even worse. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILmL. 683 Now as to the remedy. The jurigdiction of these matters has been fixed. It is too ^te to deal with that question now. The restrictions have been removed from the Indians and they have passed, in a measure at least, out of the jurisdiction of the (jeneral Uoyernment. What is done must be done in consistency with those fixed conditions. One thing is evident from the report; that is, that a very large item of the extravagant expense of administration since statehood is the item of fees allowed attorneys for guardians, which fees have been equally extravagant where the guardians have themselves been attorneys; nor in such cases have the fees of the guardians been any less than in other cases. The amount allowed as fees for attorneys for guardians in the Creek Tribe since statehood in the various counties in the cases reported is in the aggregate $367,857.80. In Muskogee County alone the allowance for this purpose amounts to $124,638.90. There are eight counties in the Creek Nation. One properly equipped attorney could render all necessary and proper legal services for all the guardians of Indian minors in any two counties, and four such attorneys could perform such duty for all the guardians of that class of persons in the Creek Nation. This could be done on an annual expenditure, including all expenses, of $25,000; this to include the salary of the attorneys, office, traveling, and stenographic expense necessary. With a force of this kind properly equipped and authorized and with full notice and publication of the fact to all courts and all guardians there would remain no excuse, much less any reason, for guardians not availing themselves of the privilege of this legal advice without expense to their wards; nor would there be any reason why the courts would refuse to cooperate, for it is to be assumed that the courts would be interested in the economical administration of the estates of wards under their jurisdiction and would recommend that they take advantage of the services of counsel thus provided without expense to their wards and would refuse to make allowances for the unnecessary payment of other attorneys. Among the duties of these attorneys would be these: To aid in the selection of proper guardians in the first instance, to bring about the removal of incompetent guardians, to prepare all legal papers on the appointment of guardians, and the _making of reports, etc., to see that delinquent reports are made as to past transactions, and to cause regular and proper reports to be made in all cases in the future, and, on the whole, to perform any and all legal eexvices that might be required bj^ any guardian of any Indian minor in the proper administration of the matters in his charge. I say that four competent men, working under the direction of the tribal attorney, with proper faciUties can transact all this business upon the theory that to the ex- tent that the guardians are competent and proper persons for such a position that the work required of an attorney is minimized, and that in many instances, as a matter of course, very little or no service would be required of the attorney except a formal inspection of matters. In the case of competent guardians the chief work of the attorney would be services in cases of the sale of land and four attorneys would be amply sufficient to perform this service and also have time for other required duties above noted. And such attorneys would not be interested, and would not encourage unnecessary and im- provident sales of the minors' lands, of which there have been many. It will be seen from the foregoing that much of the larger part of the allowances for attorneys' services is for such services in connection with the sale of minors' land. In the entire record there are not a half dozen instances where the fees allowed were based upon services rendered in contests over the property rights of the ward where such fees might be justified. . After giving this whole subject much consideration I am thoroughly of the opinion "ttiat the plan here suggested presents the only feasible and practical solution of the present deplorable situation, and it is quite probable that the operation of such a plan for a couple of years would be sufficient to break up the present system and bring about healthy conditions, after which there would be little danger of the old system being reestablished. Now, the next question is, How should the expense of this plan be provided? Should it be paid out of the General Government or borne by the tribes? I have given that matter considerable reflection, and will here submit my observations: There are approximately 7,905 adult members of the Creek Tribe on whose lands restrictions have been removed. The aggregate amount of land received by this number amounts to 1,264,800 acres. I can say with much assurance that of this large acreage not exceeding one-eighth of the amount now remains in the hands of these adults, the remaining part having been disposed of since restrictions were removed. As to those members whose lands have been disposed of, it can be said with ecjual assurance that they are practically all without property of any kind. This is verified by the tax rolls, as comparatively none of them pay a property tax; and these adults 684 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. who have disposed of their lands and have dissipated or been swindled out of the proceeds are dependent upon their minor children for homes and abiding places. And because of the large number of adults in this situation who would be benefited by the protection of the estates of the minors, I am satisfied that the expenditure of such an amount of money as suggested out of the tribal estate for the purpose of pro- tecting these minor estates is thoroughly and amply justified ; and as a further support to this conclusion it should be stated here that the full-blood minor and rastricted Indian are also beneficiaries of the plan, because they would likewise receive tbe services of these attorneys. Therefore the administration of these affairs in this man- ner is in the interest and to the benefit of practically all the members of the tribe, and that it could with much accuracy be said to be a tribal matter. While this report is dealing particularly with the administration of minor Indian probate affairs, it is, nevertheless, apparent that it throws much light upon the Indian situation as a whole in this State, and therefore may afford some guide to the depart- ment and Congress in their dealings with Indian matters now still remaining under the control of the Government. The same persistent clamor will be heard for the re- moval of restrictions from the full bloods and other Indians still under restrictions which was heard in favor of the removal of restrictions from the surplus and home- steads of other members of the tribes. Whenever heretofore the question of the removal of restrictions has been under consideration the claim was tenaciously ad- vanced that the Indian was competent to manage his own affairs, and that his best interest demanded that he be given an opportunity so to do; but the deplorable con- dition of that lai^e number of adults from whose lands restrictions hav3 been removed, as pointed out above, is a complete answer to that fallacy. In considering any future policy regarding these matters two questions naturally present themselves, because of the fact that there are two interests involved. To the extent that the interests of the white people of Oklahoma are to be considered, then the advantage of removing restrictions does not admit of argument, because it must be conceded that the inter- ests of the white people will be best subserved by the removal of all restrictions from the Indian lands, and even by the sale of all Indian lands and the abandonment of the country by the Indians. As a commercial and sociological question, this is unde- niable; but, on the other hand, if the Indians' interest to to be considered, that inter- est in this State of which Government is the trustee, then quite a different conclusion is inevitable. This report shows unmistakably and clearly that the greatest wrong and injustice has been visited upon the minor members of the tribe from whose lands restrictions have been removed. If conditions are such in Oklahoma that the minor Indians of the tribe, the most helpless class, will be made the victims of a public policy so vicious that their estates are devastated, what is to be expected when that other helpless class, including their children, have their interests subjected to the same destructive policy? As I said above, this report is intended to deal purely with the present situation, but I can not refrain from making the above suggestion for whatever it is worth in throwing light upon the situation to be dealt with in the future, and I wish to here thank the department for furnishing me the facilities for making this investigation and record before my services to the tribe terminated. I have taken the liberty of preparing a number of copies of this report for the use of Members of Congress concerned directly with legislation affecting the subject of the report. For convenience there is attached a blank form of the report secured in each pro- bate case. Respectfully submitted. M. L. MoTT, Attorney for Creek Nation. The Chairman. We will now recur to the item No. 13, on page 10 of the printed comparison with reference to the expenses of the Board of Indian Commissioners. The question is on the motion of the Senator from Michigan (Mr. Townsend) to raise that amount to $10,000. Senator Page has left the room and has asked that his vote be cast by Senator La Follette or by Senator Clapp. Is there any objection to that? There being no objection it was so ordered. The Chairman. I have submitted requests of certain absent Senators — Senators Stone and Myers — that their votes be cast in their absence. Senator Robinson. Is there any objection to that ? INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. 685 The Chairman. I do not want to act without the approval of the committee. I have laid these communications before the com- mittee. Senator Townsend. I do not want to object to the inconvenience of somebody, but I never knew any such thing to occur before in a committee of which I have been a member, where a man who had never attended one of the hearings nor given consideration to the matters could be voted. I know, of course, that it would mean put- ting it over until they could be here, and I do not want to do that. I certainly never have asked it because I think it is a bad precedent. I think that Senators who have discussed the bill in committee should pass upon the bill and not Senators who have never attended a single meeting of the committee. I am sorry it has been asked. Senator Kobinson. Mr. Chairman, I myseu do not like this kind of procedure, but I will say that on a number of other committees of which I am a member this course has been pursued all winter; for instance, on the Committee on Agriculture and the Committee on Interstate Commerce. Senator Clapp. Has it been where the matter was contested at aU ? Senator Robinson. There has been no objection made to the re- quest. Requests have been made a number of times in those com- mittees where Senators who are absent have left their proxies, so to speak, with the chairman, and have been permitted to have their votes cast. That has been done uniformly. The Chairman, Permit me to make this observation. The Senator from Michigan says he is sorry it has been asked. Those Senators who asked me to do, this charged me in the most specific terms to lay this before the committee, and the chairman could no nothing else blit lay it before the committee. Senator Townsend. Mr. Chairman, I am not criticising your action. I said I was sorry it had been asked. I never knew it to be done in the Interstate Commerce Committee except for the purpose of a quorum. Some committees wiU not permit that even. But I know we could not get along at aU if we did not permit it. But to vote on a proposition that they have never considered, I have never heard of it, and^I think it is a bad precedent. Senator Lane. Last year they asked to vote and voted hke Senator Page is doing now. Senator Gronna. I understand that the objection is to an absent member voting. Senator Townsend. I do not want to make that objection il it simply means the inconvenience of the committee. I do Jiot think Senators ought to ask it. I would not ask to be considered as voting on a proposition that I had not considered. The Chairman. Is there any objection to the four absent Senators, who asked to have their votes cast in a certain specific way ? Senator Gronna. What are we going to vote on? The Chairman. The question is on Senator Townsend s amend- ment to increase this item from $4,000 to $10,000. Senator Gronna. That is the expenses of the commission i The Chairman. Yes. Senator Gronna. T object. ^r i t^ i ^ v * ^ The Chairman. The Senator from North Dakota objects, and manifestly those votes can not be cast. 686 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Robinson. I renew the suggestion I made the other day, for the reason I gave the other day, that we fix a time to vote on this bill, so that absent Senators may be present. It is not a matter of criticism of Senators, because they can not always be here. We have had this matter up several times, and they can not always be here. So I renew the suggestion that we fix a time to vote on this matter. The Chairman. Will you name a day, Senator? Senator Fall. I move that it be fixed at 2 o'clock to-morrp^ afternoon. Senator Robinson. I would move to vote on it now, or as soon as possible. ♦ The Chairman. I have done my duty to those absent Senators. I am willing to vote now. I want the record to show that there is objection made. The question is on the amendment of Senator Townsend to increase this item from $4,000 to $10,000. I presume you want a roll caU on that proposition ? Senator Townsend. I want to be heard on that, Mr. Chairman, before the vote is taken. I regret very much that this matter should come up in this way, which would even have the suggestion of politics in reference to its consideration. I think everybody will acxjuit me from the time I entered this committee until this present time of trying in any way to bring politics into the consideration of matters before the com- mittee. I am inclined to beUeve that politics is involved in this matter, and that the result will be detrimental to the Indian Service. I do not believe that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, if left to himself, would have recommended this kind of proposition at this time. Senator Lane. I beg your pardon. What kind of a proposition do you mean ? Senator Townsend. This proposition to practically aboUsh, while this amendment is for the increase of salary. The argument that has been made thus far has been against the usefulness of that com- mission and against the propriety of having such a commission. That is not directly involved in this amendment, but maybe involved in a subsequent one. Now, if we are to have this commission I think that most Senatois would agree that it ought to have sufficient funda to do the work which would naturally be required of it. But I want to speak on the question itself, namely, whether we ought to have a commission at all or not; that is, whether we should abolish the commission. I can see great good to the service through the operations of this commission. It is a nonpartisan, disinterested board, composed of high-grade men, who can have no other object in view but the gpod of the Indian. That commission has been limited in its operations in the past by lack of funds. Its powers of visitation, or the benefits to be derived from visitation, have been materially limited because of lack of fuads. Nowit is intimated by the commissioner, or his assistant, that possibly this board of Indian commissioners is in some way or other antagonistic to the performance of the full duties of the com- missioner; that in some way it has infringed upon the rights of the commissioner; that it has seen fit to make certain recommendations which -first ought to have been submitted, according to the com- INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 687 missioner's views, to the commissioner, notably that in reference to irrigation projects. The fact of the matter is, as has been disclosed, that the commission had always a right to report directly to Congress, directly to the President, and it was intended it should do so. It has no power of legislation. It has no power of administration so far as the affairs of tlie department are concerned, but it can make recommendations after investigation. It makes those investigations, and much good hfts come from them. In spite of all that has been said, many of the suggested reforms that have been proposed to the commissioner, or to this committee, originated through investigations of the Indian Commission. Some of the reforms which have been alluded to here to-day, or within the last few days in the consideration of this bill, originated and had their inception with the Board of Indian Com- missioners. Now, it is a strange proposition to me that this board, which is working at no expense to the Government except the pittance of $4,000— and $10,000 is proposed in this bill — the influence which the conunissioner invokes; he wants some help and he needs it — that influence we propose to abolish. Now, I have stated that it looks to me like politics, and for this reason: The Board of Indian Commis- sioners nave commended in their report three men in Oklahoma — ■ Mr. Mott, Mr. Wright, and Mr. Kelsey. In all of my experience with the investigations on the special committee I have never heard one word against those gentlemen. Those gentlemen seem to have escaped criticism, and I think they are the people who have been sacrificed, or it is proposed to sacrifice, in this bill. We are abolish- ing" the positions held by Wright and Kelsey and establishing in their stead, outside of the civil-service rules, a single superintendent or commissioner. Mr. Mott has already been separated from the service, while it seems from all that has been said and admitted here that he is the one man who should have been retained. I believe he would have been retained had it not been for political influences in Oklahoma. Instead of reheving the commissioner, we are binding him more strongly with partisan bonds from which he can not escape. I do not believe we ought ever to have invaded the civil service. I believe there are powers enough there and opportunities enough so that the commissioner could have acquired all the men that he needed and just such kind of men as he needed without being sub- jected to political influence as to appointment to those various new places that we have created in the bill. I believe it would have been for the good of the entire country, and especially for the Indians in Oklahoma, if Mr. Mott's contract had been renewed. It is undisputed here that it was he instigated, at least, the suits against the offenders out there in Oklahoma. Those cases necessarily incurred enmity to him. Yet, with a letter commending his coiu-se as an honest, capable, proper man for the position, he is separated from the service and those other officers are separated from the service. Mr. Chairman, we are making a bad ending of otherwise very excel- lent work. The commission ought to be given more money. It ought to be given a freer hand and even if its findings do not agree with the findings of the Indian Commissioner, as the conmiission is composed of honest men and the commissioner is an honest man, 688 INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. they can compromise their differences, or compose them by looking over various reports and accepting the one that is right. I am look- ing for greater usefulness to the commission instead of lessening the usefulness of that body. It has been intimated here by one witness who has testified against this commission — and the only one — that possibly the connection of its secretary is objectionable and therefore the commission should be aboHshed. I hold no brief for Mr. Abbott, nor do I wish to say one word with reference to him, but I simply say that it is not a good argument, because if he is the wrong man the commission can ehminate him. If there is anything against him which ought to be disclosed the special commission on Indian Affairs could investigate him, and I will be the very last one to defend him against a single wrong thing that he has done, because I want the truth disclosed. It is not a convincing argument to me that people who have been indicted because of the activity of the secretary of this comimission, or by somebody else, find fault with him. He is not on trial here. It is a question as to whether that commission should be retained or not, and if we have anything against Mr. Abbott that can be proved it should be disclosed, because an unfit man should not be connected with the service. So, Mr. Chairman, kaowing as I do, having read the record, and as you do, Mi*. Chairman, that this commission has been of great service to the Indians of the country, we ought to give them a larger opportunity, and it ought to be allowed to continue its work in behalf of the Indians of the country. I think it is a serious mistake to abolish the only nonpartisan, disinterested, high-grade men who have connection with the service — I do not mean that to be invidious, as I know we have other high-grade men, but I mean combining them all. Those qualities do not exist under any other one man or set of men connected with the Indian service. They are not subject to political influence. They have manifested a grasp of the situation. Thev have the confidence of all who are not seeking for graft or special privileges, and who are trying to work out the destiny of the red man. Therefore, I repeat, Mr. Chairman, that I think it is a great mis- take to either cripple or abolish the Board of Indian Commissioners. Senator Gronna. You are speaking of abolishing the commission. Would it mean to abolish it ? Is that included ? Senator Townsend. No; I said that to begin with, but all the arguments that have been made against this matter have been in favor of doing away with it entirely. I have not heard a single argument made against the increase of the salary, but all the argu- ments have been that the commission is a useless concern and ought not to exist. Senator Lane. Mr. Chairman, I believe I was one of the com- mittee who made the plainest talk on this subject, perhaps, and Senator Townsend seems to think there are some politics in it. As far as I know there are none. I had not thought of politics in any way. The condition as it presents itself to me is this: Here we are, and I am one of the number, partially resi)onsible for the condition of these Indians, and I will be held responsible, and should be. Now, what is the best thing to do for them ? That is the question which I ask. Here is a commission, an independent commission INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 689 which had some sort of letters of marque granted to them in 1869, and they have been in the service ever since that time. Later, during their administration, the authority was curtailed. They had a rather large authority granted them in tlie first place, and what do we find ? What is the condition of the Indians to-day ? Now, I do not and did not allege that the commissioners were to blame for that. The more I look into it the more I have found that Congress is pretty largely to blame for it. Then the Indian Bureau is responsible. Yet all the time since 1869 down until to-day the condition of the Indians has grown progressively worse. They are worse off now than they ever were perhaps before in their history, on the average. There is among them a death rate of three times that which prevails among the wmtes from tuberculosis. That is the lowest estimate. The Indian is becoming impoverished. His lands are being frittered away; so are his means — ^his money. There have been hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of dollars of his money wasted; literally ne has been defrauded out of it. To-day there are tribes of Indians with hundreds of thousands of dollars, and in some cases millions, with income from' their property — many thousands of doUars a year — that are going hungry and some dying of starva- tion. One Indian the other day wrote to a stockman and asked permission, in order to save himself and his family from hunger, to secure such dead cattle as he might have upon his range, promising to pay for those dead cattle when he had the money, which he did not have at the time, to pay for them. You know that case came under your notice on that reservation — you know about it, and the balance of those Indians, many of them, are eating flour and potatoes mixed with water. There is the same condition among other tribes; it is no theory. It is a condition which exists at this time. Now it strikes me that here is a commission with power, and upon whom the moral obligation exists to put a stop to it if they can. If it is not in their power to put a stop to it, to at least protest; and, if their protest was not recognized or not heard or anyone turned them away with a deaf ear, to get upon their feet and make themselves heard by an appeal to the public of this countrjr. Here is a commis- sion of the best men in America; but silent acquiescence in this condi- tion of affairs is a certificate to the people of this country that this corruption and dirt;^ low-down cowardly stealing which has been practiced on the Indians by the department, with the participation and consent of Congress, either did not exist or was all right. It could have been stopped any day that they protested it, and it was their duty to raise an outcry and help stop it, and we never heard a whisper from them. Senator Townsend. May I interrupt you? Senator Lane. Yes, sir. . Senator Townsend. They did make reports on these things. They had no authority to act. Senator Lane. They had authority to appeal to the public and to the President and to the people of this Nation. Senator Townsend. And they did. , , , , 1 1 , Senator Lane. And with the standing they had they could have gone to the press ; they could have raised a riot, and Congress would have set up nights in special session to have remedied the condition. 690 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator Townsend. I have read in the newspapers articles written by Mr. Moorhead and others disclosing the conditions they found. They have been pubhshed in the newspapers. The commission had $4,000 and the Indian Bureau had a million. They had no right of action except to visit, and they reported. Senator Lane. They have reported the conditions, have they, which exist among the IndiaAS? Then if they have, I will with- draw the remarks I have made. I have seen no such reports. They have not been presented here since I have been a Member of the Senate. There are enough reports printed by this Government to fill this Capitol Building and no one can read them. A man wotild go insane if he did. He would die of old age before he got through with them. But if they found that the condition existed as it does, it was their duty to keep right on the trail with their protest until they compelled the Indian Department and Congress to change it, or to make them refuse to do so, or to resign, iteeping them here, if they do not do in the future better than they have done in the past, is a certificate to the people of this xountry that the condition of the Indian's affairs is good enough, when it is not. It is rotten bad, if you will pardon the term. It is as bad as it could be. It is a disgrace to the American Nation. It is no credit to Congress, and I am ashamed of my share in it. But for the fact that 1 am trying to the best of my little abihty to remedy it, I would go right off this committee for very shame. I would wash my hands of it. I would not not allow this innocent blood to be on my hands. That is why I said, if they are going to do something in the future, pay them, and pay them weU. If they are going to do no more in the future than in the past, I see no reason for their existence. There is another thing which I wish to say and that is this: You can not carry on any executive department or manage a business with divided responsibility. You need one business man at the head of it, and hold him responsible. You can not fight battles and win with a committee of generals. You have got to have one general in command. ''Too many cooks spoil the broth." And I believe in concentrating power upon the present commissioner, or some other commissioner, and then hold him responsible. If these gentlemen, as I say, are to do better than they seem to have done so far as I know in the past, it is a different proposition. But looking upon them as I see them, and looking into these affairs as they have come to the surface here in the last year since I have been associated with them, I have not a great degree of respect for anybody who has been connected with them. I consider he either lacks, or has been lacking in some way, has been either acting ignorantly or did not care, and in either case it was not to his credit. But there is no pofitics in it. It is far and above that. It is simply a protest against a species of theft that has been carried on here until it nas become a disgrace to the Nation. I say that without any disrespect to any member of the board. I think they have gone along, as I was doing here for awhile and as many others have done, without knowing what the facts were — perhaps not having enough time of their own to inquire into them. I do not think they could have known them to exist and have stood for them as they have otherwise. Senator Gronna. Mr. Chairman, I just want to say a word. I am one of those who do not believe in divided responsibility, but I want INDIAN APPROPKIATIOK BILL. 691* to s^y that I can not agree with the statements that have heen made here that this commission should be held responsible for any mal- administration in the office of Indian Affairs. Senator Lane. May I ask the Senator what they are ? Senator Gronna. I Imow I have read reports signed by Mr. Moorehead. I have read many of the reports since I came to Con- gress where he has called attention to conditions that have b6en wrong. If I thought for a moment that to give this commission a dollar would in any way interfere with the splendid work that the present commissioner is doing I would not be willing to appropriate a single dollar, but whether we appropriate |4,000 or $10,000 i ca:n not see that that would make any great difference. The commission certainly has done some work that is commendable, and* that has been beneficial to the Indians. There is no question about that. I would be opposed to the proposition as advanced by Senator Robinson the other day to appoint a commission and give them the power. I am in favor of giving the Commissioner of Indian Affairs the sole power. I remember what Col. Goethals said to me In Panama — "If you gentlemen will give me authority, individually to build this canal, I wiU build it, but I do not want any divided responsibility." I am in favor of giving aU the responsibility that it is i^ the power of Congress to give to the commissioner, or to any commissioner who proves himself to possess the ability, and not only the ability to who has the best interests of the Indians at heart, and I know the present commissioner has that. But I can not for the life of me see that it will interfere with the good administration of the Indian Office to appropriate $10,000 to the commission that is only acting in an advisory manner. The Indian Commission has no power except advisory, as I understand it — ^if I am not mistaken in tnat. Senator Robinson. Visitorial power. Senator Gronna. Visitorial power, I mean, and for that reason I shall vote with Mr. Townsend on this proposition. The Chairman. The question is on the motion of the Senator from Michigan, which is to increase the item to $10,000. Senator La Follette. Mr. Chairman, I simply want to say a word. I have no desire to prolong this discussion. I voted two years ago in favor of — indeed, I think I made the motion— to give the commission which is now under discussion an appropriation of $15,000, and I have been in favor, whenever the subject has been under considera- tion before this committee, of furnishing them such means as are necessary to make their service of greater value to the Secretary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. I can not understand the spirit that has appeared in the course of this discussion, which would put upon this commission any respon- sibility whatever for the evil conditions or wrongful conditions found in the Indian Service. Why, just think for one moment how this com- mission has been treated by Congress. In the first place it was given larger powers, as I understand the law — I have not looked up the act which created it. I think it had larger powers in the beginning; if I am in error I should like to have Mr. Meritt correct me. Commissioner Sells. That is right. 39746— PT 2—14 18 692 INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. > Senator La Follette. But steadily the commission's powers have been curtailed and the appropriations for enabling it to do this work have been reduced. I can not understand another thing, that there should be a feeling on the part of anyone most friendly with the officials charged with the administration of the laws relating to the Indians, against the commission appointed by the President visiting the Indian reservations and making their reports to the Secretary of the Interior, and having their reports criticized as to anything they find going on on the reservation. That criticism can not stand for one moment against the administration of that service if that admin- istration is sound and right. In this committee it is asked — not only now, but I have heard the same inquiry heretofore^ — ^'What has this commission done? We never see their reports. , We never hear anything about their work." You forget that the law requires the filing of their reports with the Secretary of the Interior and not with Congress. I believe it should be amended. I believe that a high-class commission, such as every- body admits this to be, so far as the personnel of the commission is •concerned, clothed with visitorial power, such as this commission has, furnished a liberal appropriation, unsalaried as they are, should be furnished sufficient money to enable them to pay their expenses, as they are contributing their time, so that they might visit every reservation in the country. I can see that nothing but good could possibly come if they report to the Secretary of the Interior or report directly to the President, and the reports which they make are trans- mitted to the committees of the two Houses having Indian affairs in •charge. I do not know what their reports have been except as I .have seen some statements printed in the newspapers. One of the members of this cominission placed in my hands a report within the last two or three months made upon an investigation of a reservation in Wisconsin. I have not looked at one line of that report, because I know that the law requires that the report be made to the Secretary of the Interior, and I felt if I possessed myself of the information it contained and made use of that information that I would possibly subject the commission, or that commissioner, to some criticism for Slaving furnished me a copy of the report. I am satisfied that he did it without understanding that, strictly construed, the law requires liim to make his report to the Secretary of the Interior. I do beheve that much good would come from just such investiga- tion as these gentlemen might make on these Indian reservations if their reports could not only go to the President, but to the Secretary of the Interior, or the Indian Commissioner, and the committees of Congress having charge of this subject with respect to legislation. Now, supposing those reports did criticise some conditions that were found on those reservations, I am confident that the present oommissioner should be glad to be informed of anything that is going on on those reservations that is wrong, which he does not ascertain through the regular channels of his office. I think it has been intimated in the course of these hearings on this bill that the inspection service is faulty; that oftentimes rela- tionships are shown to have sprung up between those inspectors' who are sent to visit reservations and the agents, and oftentimes «,buses are not reported. Now, we will be very much more likely INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. 693 to have those reported if another body of men who could not possibly have any relations with the agents or any of those administering the law in the field could go and make their examination and come and tell the Commissioner of Indian Affairs what they find, as well as the Secretary of the Interior, the President, and this committee. I was a member of one committee that visited the reservations. It was a subcommittee of this committe. . We spent some three or four weeks upon the reservations. We got a vast amount of valu- able information, but our visits necessarily were hurried. We could spend only two or three days upon a reservation. These gentlemen, who are largely men who have retired from business, and a member of that commission can go to a reservation and stay there for weeks, if necessary, if he finds matters there which the interest of the Ind- ians and the interest of good administration require to be investi- gated, and how it can be conceived that harm can come to the serv- ice for those men to make thorough investigations and make their reports to the Indian Commissioner I am unable to understand. It does not divide the responsibility. They have no responsibility except for finding the truth and reporting it, and if it is only the truth that they are reporting it will be known that it is the truth, and it will stand an investigation that will be made of it by the Sec- retary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and if they have reported foohshly or wrongly in any way that report will fail. It is only as they bring meritorious criticisms and meri- torious reports that those reports can stand the light of investiga- tion and examination such as the Indian Commissioner would be able with his force, trained all over the country, to apply to them. Take the national banks of the country. We do not let the national banks of the country run those banks without some visi- torial authority. We send bank examiners. We do not take the responsibility away from the national banks, but we send bank examiners to look through their books. Just stop for a moment to think what this is. This is not an outside party, a volunteer, hunting down opportunities to criticize and find fault with the Indian commissioner or the Secretary of the Interior. This body of men is appointed by the President, the man who appoints the Secretary of the Interior and the Indian com- missioner, and the theory of it is sound. This law says we will have a body of men who are entirely outside and apart from aU pohtical interests, a body of men who can have no interest in the Indian con- tracts, a'body of men who from the very bent of their minds and the breadth of their experience must, when they have made an investiga- tion and reported honestly upon it, bring t)ack something to those charged with authority which will be valuable. It would just look as thouo-h Congress did not quite have the courage to destroy this commission, but had years ago so limited it with funds that it could not look into the Indian Service. I beheve the commission should be given $25,000 instead of $4,000. Senator Robinson. I was just going to suggest that the argument that you are now making would apply ahnost with equal force to the $10,000, because that sum is totally inadequate. Senator La Follette. I agree with you, Senator Kobmson. Senator Robinson. It could not be adequate for any material serv- ice or investigation which the commission might make. 694 , INDIAN APPEOPKIATION BILL. Senator La Follette. They have been able with their limited appropriation to go into two or three places. They have gone into Oklahoma, and it is rather significant that a report which has been made irom Oklahoma on the Oklahoma situation approved the work of this gentleman who appeared here to-day, Mr. Mott, and it almost suggests to one, you know, that the same influences that wanted to get rid of Mr. Mott because he went down into that country and found that estates were being plundered, are hostile to this commission, because Mr. Moorhead's report is somewhat along the same Unes as that of Mr. Mott. I believe ttis bill carries, Mr. Chairman, an appropriation from the Federal Treasury of $85,000 to employ attorneys — and what for? Against my protest and that of other men on this committee, I think, an innovation was made in the law. Oklahoma with its milUons upon millions of property belonging to the Indians was taken out from under the general statutes, which provided that the Secretary of the Interior should administer the estates of minor Indians. For some reason or other this wonderfully rich field in Indian property was lifted out by a special act and turned over to the probate court to settle. And I said when that was proposed in this committee, "You will have chicanery, robbery, and fraud in those courts." And now this bill carries $85,000, to employ attorneys to prosecute the scoun- drels who have been using the local courts to pillage these Indians of their property. Gentlemen of this committee, publicity never hurt anything that was honest. Investigations can not do wrong. Or if it is twisted and distorted to serve a purpose, when you turn the light on it it goes to pieces. This commission can make no report upon Mr. Sells^ administration of office — I know it would never have the oppor- tunity — that will be hurtful to Mr. Sells. It may uncover something on tms reservation and on other reservations that is wrong and bring it to the knowledge of an honest administrative officer, who could not find it out from his own agencies, but when he has his attention called to it, the responsibility is his then, and I know this man well enough to know he will say, ''Is that so? I will go personally if necessary. ' I will see, myself, if these Indian inspectors have been misleading me. Or I will find some man who knows and I wiU put him in there. This puts me on my inquiry." I tell you they can not do any harm. Let us retain this commis- sion and give them, that authority, that power, and an appropriation which wiU enable them to satisfy my friend from Oregon. I move to amend the motion made by the Senator from Michigan by striking out the figures ''$10,000" and inserting the figures "$25,000." Senator Clapp. I second the motion. The Chairman. The question is on agreeing to the amendment which is proposed by the Senator from Wisconsin. Senator Lane. I want to say right there, Senator La Follette, if these people have no power Senator La Follette. They have a right to go upon the reserva- tions under the law. They would not have any right to go upon the, reservations as private citizens, but we give them the right to go upon the reservations, and give them no power — and you do not want to give them that power, according to your own statement — and I would not give tnem power to cross lines with the commissioner. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 695 Let the commissioner have all the power, but give the board authority to do nothing except to bring in the facts. Senator Lane, i understood you' to say, Senator, that under the present law they have no power to do anything, and if they have no power, this money will be of no avail. But if you are going to have them, I believe in paying them well and have them come here with facts. Senator La Follette. Then I am going to move later, if they are retained, and an appropriation made amply sufficient to enable them to do some better work, more thorough work, to amend the law so that their reports shall come to the chairman' of the Committee on Indian Affairs as well as to the Indian Commissioner and the Secretary of the Interior. Then we can confer about it. That will give us informa- tion about what is going on on these reservations, and I can not see that anything but good can possibly come from it. Senator Pittman. I did not intend to say anything on this matter, and I only intend now to say a few words, which are drawn out largely by the suggestion of one of the Senators, that possibly there is some politics in the matter of the vote on this matter. I want to assure Senators that I have not that in consideration, and to assure them I want to give my reasons. The appointment of a commission of this kind, if it is good in the case of Indian affairs, should be good in the case of the national banks; it should be good in all branches of the Interior Department : it should be good in the Department of Justice, and in fact it should follow everywhere. In other words, it is on the theory that the departments that you have created are either inca- pable or dishonest. I can not conceive of it in any other waj^. Now, then, it is the duty of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Mr. Sells, to seek out these wrongs. If he does not seek out these wrongs, he is not doing his duty. I can not conceive that he will not do his duty. I beheve he will do his duty. The Treasury Department has its bank examiners, but those bank examiners are under the Treasurer of the United States, through the Comptroller of the Currency. The bank examiners are not a separate body hke this commission. The Treasury Department is responsible for these bank examiners. It is a part of the system. It is the means that the Treasury Department uses to detect a wrong in their department. Commissioner Sells does not have to depend on his Indian agents for information. He can send out unknown special inspectors for the purpose of getting this very information, the same as the bank examiner is sent out to the bank at an unknown date and an unknown time, and then they change bank examiners. The com- missioner has exactly the same power in this particular, and I beheve that the existence of this commission is a reflection on the Indian Department. I think that if you should create such a commission in connection with every other department of this Government, it would be an admission of either the dishonesty or the inefficiency of that department. I am not only opposed to the amendment in- creasing the amount from $4,000, but 1 think that the commission is entirely useless, and not only useless, but that it is a reflection on the department. I beheve that the Representatives and Senators from the State of Oklahoma are in a position to discover whether or not this commission is doing its duty in regard to those Indians. I have enough faith in those Senators and Representatives to beheve if they 696 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. are not that they wLQ ask for the removal of the commission and the substitution of another authority instead of the one existing. I am absolutely opposed to having two commissions at Washington. If wo are going to have two commissions, let us have three. Senator Fall. I will suggest to the Senator that we have a legis- lative commission now, members of this committee, who are domg that very thing, as I understand, investigating the different agencies and different matters connected with the Indian affairs. I can not see where there would be necessity for that. I admit that I am in accord with the Senator from Nevada. I can not see why we should have a commission on the outside appointed by the authority that appoints the Secretary of the Interior and the Indian Commissioner,^ and that commission report simply to the same authority that the Indian Commissioner reports to, unless we want to make them a legislative committee. If the Senator from Wisconsin had preceded his amendment by the amendment suggested to make this com- mission of some good to somebody, invested with some authority or some power, then I could see the necessity for continuing it. The Chairman. The clerk will call theroll. Senator Lewis. A parliamentary inquiry, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. The Senator will state it. Senator Lewis. I have paid but little attention, I regret to say, to the work of this committee, having been removed from an Indian country too long. The amendment of Senator Townsend does not comprehend the abolishment of the power, I take it? The Chairman. No; it does not. But the question is on the amend- ment to the amendment which is proposed by the Senator from Wisconsin Senator Lewis. Which I am not advised of. The Chairman (continuing). To increase the appropriation from $10,000 to $25,000. Senator Lewis. It is upon that that we are going to vote ? The Chairman. It is upon the amendment to the amendment pro- posed by the Senator from Wisconsin (Senator La FoUette). The clerk proceeded to call the roll. Senator Lane (when his name was called). I will give them a year's trial on that, and I vote ''Yes," to give them another year's trial with enough money to do the work. The result was announced, as follows: Yeas: Senators Lane, Clapp, La Follette, Page, Gronna, Townsend, and Ashurst. Nays: Senators Robinson, Thompson, Lewis, Pittman, and Fall. So the amendment to the amendment was agreed to. Senator Townsend. I accept the amendment very gladly. The Chairman. The question is on agreeing to the item as amended. The item as amended was agreed to, providing for $25,000 instead of $4,000. The Chairman. Before we go, in that section I want to direct your attention to some language. On page 10 of the comparison, line 4, the concluding words are: ''Including not to exceed $300 for office rent." Senator Gronna. What does that apply to? The Chairman. It apphes to the Board of Indian C^o nmissioners. Senator Gronna. Do you want to retain that item ? INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. 697 The CiiAiRMA^ST. Somebody has either written the chairman or spoken to me that that ought to be changed because it limits the office rent to $300. What have you to say about that, Commissioner Sells ? Commissioner Sells. I do not know anything about that. Mr. Abbott. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Vaux reminded you at the time of his hearing before the committee that the board had rooms in the Bureau of Mmes, furnished by the Secretary of the Interior, so that we have no rent to pay under the present arrangement. That is the reason for limiting it. Commissioner Sells. I wish to rise to a question of privilege. I wish all the Senators were here. I have tried very hard in this matter of the board to be judicially minded and as high class as it was possible for me to be. I have conceived the notion during the entire discussion, and preHminary thereto, and at this time that my proner attitude was one of as nearly noncommittal on the matter as could be. Your action iust now seems to cause Mr. Meritt to feel quite concerned, and under these circumstances I am constrained to suggest that he ought to be heard upon the matter of your action. Since he has been associated with the Indian Bureau as chief law clerk, and later as my first assistant, and as a man in whom I have great confidence, and who has had knowledge of the details of the Indian Bureau and its ramifications, everything considered, I feel that I can not do less than my duty to ask you to hear him. The Chairman. I shall now make a short statement regarding the vote, not that my vote needs explanation. I do not believe very much in explanations. As Elbert Hubbard says, they never explain. I try to do my duty and face the future uncomplain- ingly rather than with explanations. There are no men connected with the present administration for whom I have a higher regard, personally, than the honorable commissioner, Mr. Sells, and his first assistant, Mr. Meritt, and I shall not permit my vote to be con- strued as a reflection in any way upon the useful work of those two gentlemen. I retain to myseK the right to vote as I see fit on these matters. I believe that the vote I have just cast mil give the honorable commissioner much assistance. I reahze, of course, that the Board of Indian Comniissioners n^ade some mistakes. It has made some criticisms, possibly, that it should not have made, but I am convinced that the board's existence is a wise thing. I believe ^ on the whole, that the board accomphshes much good for the Indian Service. We who are on the Indian Committee and those who are in the Indian Bureau must, of course, be aware that we are at all times, respecting Indian affairs, sitting on a volcano, and at any time there may come an eruption. Therefore, it would seem that we should all welcome the assistance of these 10 men who represent all political faiths; who are in large measure men who have retired from business, all of whom are of humanitarian impulse, and seeking no special favor, and who will point out the pitfalls and abuses to us, and who will suggest remedies. Surely we ought not to occupy the attitude of declining to receive suggestions. The first assistant commissioner, whose name I men- tion with respect, must know that I have the highest regard for his public service, for down in my State there is a strategic point on the Gila Kiver called the Box Can3^on. The Southern Pacific Railroad 698 INDIAN APPBOPEIATION BILL. tried to get its railroad right of way through there. The Santa Fe also attempted to do so, and there was some litigation between the two, trying to get hold of this strategic point, and if the other com- pany had been successful the possibility of an irrigation project being constructed there would have been precluded. As it was, the rail- road companies were required to elevate their track, and now I have great hopes that an irrigation project will be established to irrigate the rich alluvial lands of the Indians lying below. It was none other than Mr. Meritt, as chief law clerk, who made the examination and who investigated the evidence, and defeated the machinations of the railroad company. I have repeatedly praised him for this, and many other conspicuous works in behalf of the pubhc which he has performed, ^nd instead of my vote on this subject tending in any way to hamper him or his work, I have simply voted in accordance with what I beheve is the strengthening of his hands. Senator Townsend. I move that the committee adjourn. The Chairman. Mr. Meritt, what do you say? Mr. Meritt. I prefer to make my statement before the full com- mittee. The Chairman. Very weU; we wiU then adjourn. Thereupon, at 5.15 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until Wednesday, April 15, 1914, at 2 o'clock p. m. WEDNESDAY, APBIL 15, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m., pursuant to adjournment. Present: Senators Ashurst (chairman). Lane, Robinson, Thomp- son, La Follette, Page, Gronna, and Townsend. SALARY INCREASE. The Chairman. The honorable commissioner can not be present to-day, but I am conscious of one matter, at least, that we might take up in his absence. I received the following letter from the Secretary or the Interior, dated April 13, 1914: Department of the Interior, Washington, April IS, 1914. My Dear Senator: Referring tx) the bill S. 4164, I am very heartily in favor of an increase in the salary of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, proposed in that bill, and of the provision found in section 3 providing for the appointment of three men who shall do certain work on behalf of the Indians set out in that section. The wisdom of establishing a commission which shall be independent of this or any other department I am inclined to doubt. The Indians, I think, would look with some suspicion upon the establishment of such a board, which would remove tiiem from the President, who is their great chief and whom they can visualize as their pro- tector. With the general purpose of your bill I am in full sympathy, because it tends to exalt the position of Commissioner of Indian Affairs by increasing his salary (which is inadequate now and calls for a large sacrifice on the part of the right man) and the extension of the term to six years, which gives an opportunity for the carrying out of a determined line of policy. Cordially, yours, Franklin K. Lane. Hon. Henry F, Ashurst, Chairman Committee on Indian Affairs, United States Senate. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 699 Senator^EoBiNSON. A suggestion was made last year that the salary be increased to $7,500. I do not know whether it was put in the bill. The Chairman. It went out on a point of order in the Senate. Senator Clapp. I would be in favor of increasing the salary of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, but I do not think salaries should be increased except by the Appropriation Committee having charge of the legislative, executive and judicial bill. Senator Kobinson. Let me make this suggestion. I have intro- duced a bill increasing his salary to $7,500. Ordinarily I am not in favor of increasing salaries, but we all know that this man does his work well, has more work than almost any Cabinet officer. He has an enormous task, and for my part I do not object to his having $7,500. If you thmk he ought to have it, I shall ^e glad to introduce a bill and have you give me permission to report it to that end, just carrying that provision, unless you want to put something else on it, and saving the other questions in my original bill to a further hear- ing. If you are in favor of that I will introduce the bill tomorrow. It is subject to a point of order here, and even if some member of this commistee does not make it, some Member of the Senate, not famihar with the matter, would feel that the committee ought to report it as a separate measure. Senator Townsend. When are we likely to get the legislative appropriation bill out ? Senator Kobinson. I do not know. Senator Townsend. That would be proper in that biU. Senator Robinson. No; not an increase in salary. You would first have to authorize the increase and then make the appropriation. The way to do it, if you think favorably of the increase, is to authorize a bill to be reported, ''that from and after the passage of this act the salary of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs be $7,500," and then take care of the appropriation in that bill, but if you put a provision in there increasing hi,s salary that will be subject to a point of order. I will make a motion, in order to get it before the committee, that a bill be reported authoriziQg an increase in the commissioner's salary to $7,500. Of course, this bill will meet with some opposition, but the Commissioner of Indian Affairs has more work to do than an ordinary bureau head. Senator Townsend. I am in favor of it if we can give him more money, and you can do that without making it necessary to increase aU the salaries of the other chiefs of divisions in the same way. This is a matter of some importance, but that will have to be discussed, of course, when it comes before the House and Senate. I think this man is worth more than $5,000 if he does what he has set out to do. The Chairman. I assume there is no opposition to that ? Senator Page. Yes, I have. In my judgment the Commissioner of Indian Affairs has set out to do more than he can do. He seems to me to be a man in a very highly overwrought state of nervous tension. I believe that if he undertakes to carry out what he has set out to do that he is going to break. I say that with a feeling of great sorrow. The question of the enlargement of salaries of some of the officers of the Government corresponding to this has been discussed to-day m the committee where I was present, and the discussion there mdicated that if this was opened it would mean a flood of bills for taking up 700 INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. other officers; but for all that there was a general feeling that this particular officer ought to be increased from $5,000 to $6,000. I feel very kindly toward our commissioner and I would vote for an increase to $6,000, but I would not feel like voting for an increase to $7,500, because it would disturb the equilibrium which exists among officers of the same line. Senator Clapp. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that it would avoid friction, and by that I mean it would avoid what might seem to me a criticism of him and his office to resist the increase to $7,500 by only making it probably $6,000. I had that in mind before Senator Page spoke. Senator Page. I think that perhaps it would go through, but you and I, I think, without being invidious, can understand that Dr. Galloway is a man that can command $7,500 in a minute to go outside. He is now working for the Government at $5,000. Senator Robinson. But his salary has been increased today by the Committee on Agriculture. Senator Page. To $6,000 only. Senator Robinson. So far as that is concerned, Mr. Chairman, there is no comparison between the amount of work and responsibility which rests on the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and tnat which rests on Dr. Galloway. While his work is of a scientific character and is very valuable, and while I do not for a moment discredit it, yet tne multiphcity of details which devolve on the Commissioner of Indian Affairs overwhelms me. I agree with what you said awhile ago that they are likely to destroy a man who takes them very seriously. He will either be compelled to trust impHcitly to the integrity and effi- ciency of underlings, employees that he has no direct responsibility for, or he must work more than any one other man is capable of doing. Senator Page. Absolutely, Senator. He will find very soon that he has got to transfer some of these burdens to his subordinates. I have no more doubt than I have that I am sitting in my chair to-day that that man will break if he carries the load he is now trying to carry. Senator Robinson. It is my idea that a commission ought to be created. I think we shall come to that in the end. If you^ave, for instance, a commission charged with responsibility directly to all matters relating to education and agriculture — because agriculture in its present stage, at least, is educative among the Indians — and put the responsibihty on that commission, wth a certain right of consultaion and advice in the whole commission, the right of veto, we might say, on the part of the whole commission, and then take another and make three commissioners, divide the work up that way, they could then fairly well do the work which they are supposed to do. But now it is a very grave vice in this system, and I think anyone who has had experience in it will agree with me, where the Commissioner of Indian Affairs can not even read the document he signs. If he read the documents on which he puts his O.K., and that he either signs or somebody else signs for him, he would work 10 or 12 hours a day. Now, that system is all wrong. You can not justify it. The man who becomes responsible on the record for any docu- ment ought to have the opi)ortunity, at least, of knowing at first hand from his own investigation what it contains and what its value and importance is. INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 701 The Chairman. There are something like 9,000 letters. Senator Robinson. That system is all wrong, and there has got to be a change before you get very far. As it is, some man whose name is never known does the real work; makes the real investigation; writes the letter that goes; determines the matter, involving per- haps enormous sums of money, and the commissioner signs it. It becomes officially his act, whereas morally and actually he does not know a thing about it any more than a man who has never seen it, or but httle more. Senator Clapp. I do not think. Senator, that anyone at the head of a large matter of that kind can read all the correspondence. Senator Robinson. That is true. Senator Clapp. Even as a Senator it is impossible for me to read my letters after they have been written. They are prepared; they pass through three hands, and I have simply got to rely upon my subordinates. Senator Thompson. You can not read all you receive, even ? Senator Clapp. No, sir. Senator Townsend. That is one of the duties which are imposed upon our commissioner. We have never had any discussion of that matter; in fact, we have not got through our investigation. I agree with you that we have got to reorganize in some way, but I was in hopes we could do this other work first and then sit down and take the time afterwards to go over this matter and see if we can not devise some relief. ^ Senator Robinson. I think that is the better way, and I did not mean to imply by anything I said a moment ago that I thought we ought to write the legislation now. There is no difference between you and me on that point. Senator Page. Would you suggest that we go over this question of salary now ? Senator Townsend. Would it not be better to make that $6,000, if that is what they are doing elsewhere ? Senator Lane. What does he get now ? Senator Page. Seven thousand five hundred. Senator Gronna. I am in favor of giving the commissioner $7,500, and I beheve that is hardly enough compared with what the Cabinet officers get, and I beheve that the position of Indian Commissioner is one of just as much responsibility as any position held by a Cabinet officer. I would make the suggestion to introduce a separate bill and allow whoever introduces it to report it out for $7,500, and then write a provision in this bill for $7,500, and if it does not go out on a point of order in the Senate, which I do not beheve it will, then the work is all done. Senator Page. I should be pretty certam it would go out on a point of order if you made it $7,500. I think at $6,000 it would not. Senator Clapp. I would support $7,500, but I would think it the better plan to make it $6,000 myself. Senator Robinson. We have discussed about all we need to. My motion was, and I will put the motion, that the bill be reported carrying $7,500 per annum for the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Senator Clapp. And that you be authorized——- Senator Robinson. That some one be authorized Senator Clapp. I will put the motion that Senator Robinson be authorized to report favorably a bill providing for the fixing of the 702 indiajst approfriatiok bill. * salary of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs at $7,500, to take effect from and after its passage. Senator Townsend. I am going to vote for that, but I have to reserve the right to consider it when we get on the floor in reference to other matters that will come up from other places which might make a serious difference in my mind. Senator Clapp. I also might wish to modify that to meet condi- tions on the Senate floor. I am willing to report it that way. Senator Lane. Once I took a public position on a fixed salary and the legislature offered to increase it. I said: ''I hired out for a fixed sum of money and you will have to make that increase for my suc- cessor." It will not look right. In this case it will appear, unl^ess we make the purpose very clear, that the commissioner himself wa;nts this done, and it is liable to hurt him with the public. Senator Robinson. I think perhaps that is a good suggestion. I think perhaps the act ought to become effective March 4, 1915. Senator Lane. I think that might relieve it from criticism. Senator Page. I should like to have an opportunity to vote on your proposition exactly as you offer it. I move to amend the motion of Senator Robinson by strikng out $7,500 and making it $6,000. The Chairman. The Senator from Arkansas moves that we report this bill fixing the salary of the Indian Commissioner at $7,500 a year. The Senator from Vermont moves an amendment by striking out $7,500 and inserting $6,000. Those in favor of the amendment proposed by the Senator from Vermont say ''aye." Those opposed say ''no." The noes have it. So the amendment was rejected. Senator La Follette. Why not let it begin with the beginning of the 'fiscal year? Senator Robinson. I thhik that is the logical thing to do. The Chairman. The amendment having been rejected, the ques- tion now is on the motion of the Senator from Arkansas, that is that this committee report a bill fixing the salary of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs at $7,500 to commence woth the beginning of the next ensuing fiscal year. Those in favor will say ''aye." Those opposed "no." The amendment was agreed to, Senator Page voting "no." Senator La Follette. That is a separate bill? Senator Robinson. Yes; because on your motion last year it went out on a point of order. The Chairman. In the absence of the commissioner there are some matters we might discuss if the Senators so desire. I have a letter from Mr. Brosius, agent of Indian Rights Association, who wishes certain documents in relation to the Kickapoos. That letter will go to the subcommittee. Is there anything further, Senators? reinterment chippewas, WISCONSIN point, wis. Senator La Follette. If the committee will take the time to listen to the reading of two letters here regarding a matter on one of the reservations in Wisconsin I would like to present them at this time, with an amendment that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs has submitted carrying an appropriation of $4,500 for thp purposes INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. 703 set forth in this letter. The first letter I should like to read into the record is one directed to me by Coligressman Lenroot. The reserva- tion and the cemeteries to which this relates are located in his dis- trict. The letter is as follows : House op Representatives, Washington, March 25, 1914. Hon. R. M. La Follette, United States Senate. My Dear Senator: Witli reference to tlie removal of some 200 bodies of Chippewa Indians belonging to Minnesota bands from their burial grounds on Wisconsin Point, Wis., to an established cemetery, concerning which 1 talked with you yesterday, I inclose herewith letter received from the Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs Uiis morning, from which you will see that he recommends that an appropriation be made in the present Indian bill for that purpose. In regard to this matter, I will say that I have a personal knowledge of all the cir- cumstances in this case, and the facts are that from time immemorial there has been an Indian burial ground on Wisconsin Point, opposite the city of Superior. It was always supposed by the Indians that this burial ground was public property and that they had a perfect right to use it for this purpose. Recently the United States Steel Corporation has acquired this, together with practically all of the property in this vicinity, and it is the expectation that it will shortly be used for docks, railroad yards, etc. The Steel Corporation has notified the interested parties that the bodies must be removed, and this matter for the past two years has been the subject of a great deal of correspondence between the department here and the Indian agent having charge of these Indians and other interested parties. Two years ago the department authorized an expenditure of $500 for this purpose, then believing that there were but 50 bodies to be removed. Upon further investiga- tion it was determined that the number of bodies would closely approach 200. Bids were received for the removal and it was found that the removal could not be made and space secured in anotiier cemetery for less than $18 per body, or approximately $3,500. The Indian agent recommended that if this removal was made, that tomb- stones be placed upon each grave, and bids were received for this, and they would cost $10 apiece or between $1,500 and $2,000 additional. The agent in charge recom- mended to the Department that $5,000 be appropriated for this purpose. As this siim was so large, the department informed me mat it did not feel warranted in making this appropriation out of any existing funds without a special authorization from Congress, and my interview upon the subject resulted in the letter from the department which I enclose. The relatives of practically all of these Indians are poor and most of them never received any allotments or lands from the Government, but only the small annuities which the other Minnesota Indians received in addition to their allotments. This matter did not come to my attention until the other day and hence I made no effort to secure this appropriation in the bill when it was pending in the House. I eincerely hope that the committee will see its way clear to adopt the recommendation of the department in this regard. Yours very sincerely, I. L. Lenroot. The Chairman. What is the amount ? Senator La Follette. Four thousand five hundred dollars. And Mr. Lenroot inclosed in his letter to me the following letter from the Assistant Indian Commissioner, directed to him: Department op the Interior, Office of Indian Affairs, Washington, March 24, 1914. My Dear Mr. Lenroot: With reference to your personal call at the office yes- terday, requesting information concerning the removal of about 200 bodies of Chippewa Indiais from burial grounds in the vicinity of Wisconsin Point, Wis which burial ■ grounds have passed into private hands and will shortly be used for commercial purposes, and Sesiring information especially as to whether the department without FeSion will provide for the removal of these, bodies to an estabhshed cemetery, S further, as to whether or not, under all the circumBtances, this would be a proper matter for general appropriation, I have the honor to advise you that, from data SSed bf this office, (t is believed that some pro^osign should be made for the rem^al of these bodies and their reinterment, and for payment of the necessary expenditure connected therewith. 704 INDIAN APPROPBIATION BIUL. It is believed, however, that such expenditure should not be from the general Indian appropriation but should be made out of Chippewa funds. From estimates received covering removal of 200 bodies from the present burying ground, convey- ance to a cemetery in Superior, Wis., payment for 200 lots in a cemetery, reinterment, and placing a wooden marker at each grave, it is believed that all can be accom- plished at an expenditure not to exceed $4,500, this to include a plain but suitable general monument, properly inscribed. As no funds are now available for this pur- pose, however, it will be necessary to make provision in the Indian appropriation bill now under consideration. An item similar to the one here suggested would meet all requirements, in the opinion of the office, if inserted after the words "as amended" in line 17, page 19, under "Minnesota, section 8, " in H. R. 12579, " In the Senate of the United States." ^^ Provided further, That $4,500 of this amount, or so much thereof as may be neces- sary, may be expended in the removal of Chippewa Indian bodies from the burial grounds in the vicinity of Wisconsin Point, Wisconsin, and their reinterment in an established cemetery in the city of Superior; said amount to cover markers for each grave or oae monument, as may be found most suitable." If this amendment is adopted, the total amount of the appropriation should be increased accordingly. Very truly, yours, E. B. Meritt, Assistant Commissioner. Hon. Irvine L, Lenroot, House of Representatives. Senator Robinson. How much would it have to be increased? He does not say there. Senator Page. By $4,500. Senator La Follette. He says the total amount in the paragraph to which this would be an addition would have to be increased to the amount of this amendment. That is, it would have to be in- creased $4,500 if this amendment is adopted. Senator Clapp. I do not know whether that should be borne by the fund of the Chippewas in Minnesota. That is the only question in my mind. Senator La Follette. I know nothing about it excepting what appears by this letter. Senator Clapp. They are probably Lake Superior Indians. Many of their families now are probably at Bad River. Do you know any- thing about that, Mr. Beauleau. This relates to the graves in Wis- consin at a point opposite Superior. Mr. Beauleau. Some are at Bad River and some are at Fond du Lac Reservation. Senator Clapp. I mean the people. Mr. Beauleau. I say whose relatives are buried there, some are hving at Bad Lake and some at Fond du Lac. Senator La Follette. If you want time to look into that I will simply let it rest until you have an opportunity to make inquiry about it. Senator Clapp. I was going to suggest this, and I have no doubt you will consent to it. Mr. Beauleau advises me that perhaps in this same connection there should be some similar provision made with reference to some graves that are in Minnesota. Mr. Beauleau. Yes. Senator Clapp. You can take this in its present form, subject to a later suggestion from me, including the other, so that wiU leave this provided for in any event. Senator La Follette. My recollection is that the United States Steel Co. offered to contribute $500 toward the removal of these bodies, and it is my impression that that is to be added to this amount INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BELL. 705 of $4,500, making the appropriation $5,000, which I think they say is about what it will cost. Senator Page. I see the suggestion of $1,000 apiece for gravestones, and then there is a later suggestion made that you provide for wooden headstones. Senator La Follette. That is in the event that the department should conclude to build a general monument with their names on instead of separate stones, costing $10 each for each grave. The amendment as offered, T think, leaves that entirely at the discretion of the office. The Chairman. The question now is, at page 39 of the bill, Une 18, it is proposed to insert after the words, ''as amended," the following: Provided further y That $4,500 of this amount, or so much thereof as may be necessarys may be expended in the removal of Chippewa Indian bodies from the burial ground, in the vicinity of Wisconsin Point, Wis., and their reinterment in an established cemetery in the city of Superior, said amount to cover markers for each grave or one monument, as may be fpund most suitable, and for the removal and suitable burial and marking of graves of Indians bodies at Mille Lac, Gull Lake, and Sandy Lake. The question is on inserting that language and then changing the total to correspond therewith. Senator Page. Do you think this is a proper charge in Minnesota ? Senator Clapp. Senator Page, technically speaKng, probably a portion of this should be paid, either by the Government or charge to the Indians in Wisconsin, but it is one of those matters that it would be almost impossible to figure out a division, and it does cover several of the families of the Chippewas of Minnesota, and I do not think they would take any exceptions to it. Senator La Follette. Mr. Meritt says there that the amount needed in this paragraph as a total amount should be increased. Senator Thompson. The Clerk can do that. The Chairman. On Hue 25, page 38, would that not make that item read $169,500? Senator Clapp. Not necessarily. That has all gone to conference under these amendments, and the purpose of this amendment will be accomphshed if this authorization is made. Senator Page. We do not need to take up the clerical work here, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. All right. It there is no objection, it is agreed to. (The amendment was agreed to.) chippewas in MINNESOTA. Senator Townsend. I notice under the Minnesota items you have that amendment which we adopted the other day in reference to the expenditure of money and the notification of the Indians. Will that be construed to apply simply to the Chippewas ? Of course, that amendment was not to apply simply to the Chippewas, but to apply to all. , , 1 r 1 Senator Clapp. You are quite right, and that was probably my Senator Robinson. Here is what actually happened. That is Senator Clapp's amendment he put in there, but your amendment is somewhere else, the general amendment, if it is m there at aU. 706 INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. Senator Townsend. I think that ought to be numbered as section 26 at the end. Senator Robinson. Make a separate section of it ? Senator Townsend. Yes. The Chairman. In the absence of objection the new matter, com- mencing with line 6, page 42, and concluding with the word ^^ex- penditure" on line 20, on page 42, will all be luted and set as section 25 after the word ^'Indians," on line 7, and the present section 25 will be amended to read section 26. The amendment was agreed to. (Thereupon, at 3 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned untU to-morrow, Thursday, April 16, 1914, at 2 o'clock p. m.) INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. THURSDAY, APRIL 16, 1S14. Committee on Indian Affairs, United States Senate, Washington, D. C. The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m. for the purpose of resuming consideration of the bill H. K. 12579. Present: Senators Ashurst (chairman), Pi ttman, Lane, Thompson, Owen, Clapp, La Follette, Gronna, and Townsend. The Chairman. The committee will come to order. equalization of creek allotments. Senator Owen. May I bring up the amendment which I propose, 115 of our record, authorizing the Creek citizens holding the certifi- cates of equahzation to bring a suit in the Court of Claims for adjust- ment of that matter. May I read it to the committee? The Chairman. Yes; if you please, Senator. Senator Owen (reading) : That to carry into effect the agreement between the United States and the Musko- gee (Creek) Nation of Indians ratified by act of Congress approved March first, nine- teen hmndred and one (Thirty-first Statutes^ page eight hundred and sixty-one), and the supplemental agreement of June thirtieth, nineteen hundred and two (Thirt)^- second Statutes, page five hundred), and other laws and treaties providing for a mini- mum allotment to each Creek citizen whose name has been placed on the roll by the Government of the United States under authority of said agreements and laws, of the standard value of $1,^040; and in order that the claim of said citizens of the Creek Nation who have received allotments in land and money of a less value than the standard allotment of one hundred and sixty acres of the standard value of $1,040 might be determined and finally adjudicated, jurisdiction is hereby conferred upon the Court of Claims, with right of appeal as in other cases, to hear, determine, and- render final judgment against the United States for such amount as may be necessary to equalize all of such allotments up to the treaty standard value of allotments of $1,040; also to hear,, determine, and render final judgment, with right of appeal as herein provided, in the matter of the claim of the Muskogee (Creek) Nation against the Umted States based on alleged errors in the survey of the boundary of said nation, and the actions herein authorized may be brought in the name of the Muskogee (Creek) Nation and against the United States. Said suits shall be begun by petitions filed within six months after the approval of this act, which petitions shall be verified by the principal chief of said nation or the national attorney for said nation, and said suit or suits shall be prosecuted by the national attorney for the Creek Nation and by attorney or attorneys, if any, employed by said nation or tribe, or its duly authorized representatives or individual members of said tribe, to prosecute said claims: Pro- vided, That no attorney shall be authorized to represent said nation, or individual members of said nation, by reason of any contract or agreement made with the tribe or members thereof unless such contract of employment shall have been, subsequent to the passage of this act, approved by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Secretary of the Interior: And provided further, That in the event of the employment of additional attorneys, as herein set out, the said attorney or attorneys shall not be paid out of any funds now to the credit of the Creek Nation, but his or their fee shall 707 708 INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BILL. be fixed by the Cominissioner of Indian Affairs and the Secretary of the Interior after final judgment, and in event of a recovery, and shall then be taxed and paid as other costs of the actions in which such attorney or attorneys may be authorized to appear. The money accruing under any judgment or judgments rendered under this act shall be distributed by the Secretary of the Interior to the persons entitled to partici- pate therein under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe, payment to minors and restricted Indians to be subject to the conditions affecting the payments above authorized. To effect a speedy settlement of the affairs of the Creek Nation said suits shall be advanced for hearing by the Court of Claims and by the Supreme Court if the same shall be appealed. I think that for the members of the committee who are not familiar with this matter I ought to make a brief statement in regard to it. When the Creek agreement of 1901 was made it was provided that the Government would give $1,040 of land or money to these peo- ple out of their property. Afterwards the Government enrolled a number of new-born children, which took up a part of the surplus land and made a deficit in the amount of property which was at that time believed to be available, and it made a deficit of nearly $3,000,000, so I want the committee to understand what this suit means. It involves a sum of nearly $3,000,000. But the Government, or some representative of the Government, took the position that this division of land to the new-born children was justified by the attitude of the Creek council asking that that might be done. The Creek council, consisting of about 150 persons, which has represented the Creeks by a sort of implied agreement, they not having been reelected from time to time, but which was the last council, have been allowed to meet and act as a sort of execu- tive committee, so their action was not protested, as I understand it. The questioii therefore is, Were the Creeks bound by this action of their council body? The Creeks said they were not; that this was not a national matter; that this was an individual matter; that the persons having these certificates were individuals, and not orga- nized with anybody representing them; and that the Government of the United States can not ignore their right or the promise made them because the Government has distributed this land to minors. It is in this state of facts that the Creeks had permission to go into the Court of Claims. Heretofore a point of order was made against this matter because it was legislative in character. I do not know how the Senate would pass on it. The Chairman. Have we not some other matters which are going to be referred to the Court of Claims by this bill, the West claim and others, so that if a point of order would lie against one it would he against all, would it not. Senator Clapp ? Senator Clapp. No; the West claim probably would be sustained on the ground that the bill was to carry out the award. Senator Owen. If it meets the pleasure of the committee that this should be acted upon favorably I would be glad to be permitted to record it as a bill as well as an amendment, so if it does go out on a point of order it still might be considered by the Senate in due time on its merits. The Chairman. Is there any objection to that? Senator Lane. A question was raised yesterday about this legis- lation. Something went through the other day about the Creek Nation making this allotment of $1,040". Senator Owen. That was an allotment of $800. INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BILL. 709 Senator Lane. Yes; the question was raised by some one whether that carried with it some attorneys' fees under the contract ? Senator Owen. No. / Senator Lane. And whether there was not involved in it a large fee which will develop after awhile, and which we legalize or authorize to be paid ? Senator Owen. I do not know whether you observed the reading of this. Senator Lane. It says, ''By, attorneys, if any employed." Senator Owen. Shall be approved subsequent to this act, so no fee will be approved subsequent to the act itself ? Senator Lane. Whom is it to be approved by? Senatgr Owen. By the Commissioner of Indian Affairs or the Secretary of the Interior, under the provisions of the act. Senator Lane. I do not know. Senator Owen. It is provided otherwise that it shall not be paid out of any funds that are in the possession of the Creek Nation now. Senator Lane. I beg pardon. Senator Owen. Provided that no attorneys' fees be paid out of moneys in the possession of the Creek Nation now ? Senator Lane. Yes; 1 notice that. But is there no way of fixing a percentage in here and making it a fixed one, so that the Secretary of the Interior will have no trouble in ascertaining? How much does this amount to in all ? Senator Owen. About $3,000,000 to cover the fuU amount of the claim. Senator Lane. I think there ought to be some limitation put upon the amount to be paid — about one-half of 1 per cent. Senator Owen. I would be perfectly willing to have any suggestion you care to make. Senator Lane. I do not know that I am competent to make it. I am not familiar enough with this class of business, but if they agree to 3 or 4 or 5 per cent, or 10 per cent fee on it, it will run into an enormous sum. Senator Owen. I think a limitation might be suggested in here, not to exceed a certain amount. I was assuming that the Govern- ment officers would adjust that according to what would be just and right. Senator Lane. The Government officers have done some awfully funny things with the money of the Indians. Senator Owen. I would be quite willing to have a limitation put in the bill. The Chairman. Senator Lane, on page 3 of the amendment it pro- vides that the Secretary of the Interior shall fix the amount of the fee. Senator Lane. Yes. The Chairman. You want a limitation on that? Senator Lane. I think there ought to be a limitation. Senator Owen. What would you suggest, Senator Lane? ^ Senator Lane. I do not know. Can we not let this go over until to-morrow and got a fuU meeting here, and have these gentlemen present who are better informed respecting this and arrive at some amount to be definitely fixed ? Senator Owen. That would be entu-ely agreeble to me. 710 INDIA:Bf APP|K)PR3f4T|02Sr BII.L. Senator Lane. How much work is there going to be attached to this ? Senator Owen. That is the thing that is uncertain, because there may be an appeal to the Supreme Court. I do not think there would be such a very great deal of work about it. It is a question of argu- ment on the legal phases of it. . Senator Lane. I must say that I am a little timid about the legis- lation we put through here. We have had such bad luck with it — the Indians have in the past — that I should like this pretty well guarded. Do you know anything about this, Senator Clapp ? Senator Clapp. Yes; I know a good deal about it. Senator Lane. Will you let us hear some of it? Senator Clapp. I do not know how they will ever get it straight- ened out unless they can go to the Court of Claims on it. Senator Owen. What do you think about a limitation of fee? What do you think would be advisable as to that ? That is the real point Senator Lane is interested in, I think. Senator Lane. Yes. Senator Clapp. You propose there to leave it to the Secretary of the Interior or to the court ? Senator Owen. To the Secretary of the Interior and the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs, both. Senator Lane. I object to that. Everything that has been left to those officers in the last 25 or 30 years belonging to the Indians is about gone. Senator Owen. The Creek attorney is here, Judge Allen. I think it would be well to hear from him. Mr. Allen". In regard to the fee to be paid the attorneys, as pro- vided for in this amendment, heretofore, several amendments have carried the provision leaving the fixing of the fee to the Coi^rt of Claims. The contracts under which some of these parties are claim- ing the right to represent the Creeks, which this bill provides shall have no effect unless subsequently to the passage of this act the same are approved by both the Secretary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs provided, I think, a fee of 5 per cent. I assisted in the preparation of this amendment and gave consid- erable thought and time to the preparation of this provision of this amendment. I thought at the time, and I believe now, that it would be impossible to arrive at any fixed amount. I have no interest in the matter except the interest of the Creek Nation — and I think it is perfectly safe to leave this fee to the Secretary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, as it is a contingent fee and as the amount that will be recovered is indefinite. For instance, in the event that the court should hold that the newborns are not entitled to an equalization of their allotment, then the amount of the judgment would be considerably less, so that upon the whole I think it would be impossible to restrict this provision and limit the amount of the fee; that the amount to be fixed by the Secretary of the In- terior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs will be based upon the actual service that the attorneys perform if their contracts are ap- proved. As the representative of the Creek Nation, and in accord with other representatives here, we are entirely satisfied with this provision and I think it is the only just way that the matter can be settled. INMAN APP3^PJ^4?50N Ml^U 711 Senator Owen. I will say to tke conimitteG that I introduced the bill as drawn by the representatives of the people who are concerned, flowever, I thmk it would be more satisfactory to the committee if there should be a hmitation, and I should be glad to have the com- mittee indicate what they think it would be worth. Senator Lane. Do you wish to be heard, Mr. Ballinger ? Mr. Balunger. Yes ; for just a moment. The Chairman. Let me ask you what Senator wishes you to speak ? Senator Lane. He spoke to me and said he had some information on this subject, and any information we can gain I think this com- mittee ought to hsten to. God knows we need it badly enough. Mr. Ballinger. Senators, I want to make it plain why I want to be heard briefly in this matter. I have personally no interest in it, but Attorneys M. B. Maxey, who now resides at Muskogee, and Sam Powell were in 1907 employed by what was known as the Creek Agree- ment Indian Association to protect their rights in this very claim. I am heartily in favor of some disposition of the matter, and they desire that it be disposed of. They are heartily in favor of a refer- ence of the matter to the Court of Claims. Now, I have made plain my position. I appear here at their request, merely to present their views with reference to it. I desire to make one or two suggestions to the committee with reference to the amendment. That is all. Senators, under exist- ing law, under the agreement with the Creek Indians of 1901, there is a provision by which any claim of the Creek Nation then existing could be referred to the Court of Claims, and I will read the pro- vision. Provision is made for the reference of the loyal Creek claims to the Court of Claims, and then follows: Any other claim which the Creek Nation may have against the United States may be prosecuted in the Court of Claims of the United States with the ri^ht of appeal to the Supreme Court, and jurisdiction to try and determine such claim is hereby conferred upon said courts. That, Senators, gives the Court of Claims, under existing law, jurisdiction of any claim of the Creek Nation against the Govern- ment, so that there is no necessity for any additional legislation to refer any claim of the Creek Nation against the Government to the Court of Claims. It is necessary, however, in order that these particular claims may go to the Court of Claims that additional jurisdiction be conferred. Why? Because these are individual claims. Attention has been called to the fact that when some of these parties; that is, I now speak of what is known as the agreement class of Creek Indians; that is, those Indians who were in being prior to May 25, 1901. Those that were born and enrolled sub- sequent to that date are commonly known as newborns, but those born prior to that date are what are known as the agreement Indians. Under the agreements with the tribes it was provided that they should receive allotments and moneys, either in land or m moneys, up to $1,040. Some of them, in fact, practically all of them, took lands of less value than $1,040, and a certificate Senator Owen. How long will it take you to make your statement i Mr. Ballingek Just a few minutes. The Chairman How many minutes ? 712 INDIAN APPEOPKIATION BILL. Senator Owen. I have not time to listen. I am willing to have the hearings, but I do not want my time consumed day after day with matters that are of no consequence whatever, and I should like to retire and return when this gentleman closes. Mr. Ballingek. I want, Senator, to call your attention particularly to this matter here, and I will make it very brief. Senator Owen. I wish you would, because really it ought to be made brief now. Mr. Ballingek. I will make it brief, and I desire to direct it to your attention particularly, because it is a matter in your own State, and naturally comes under your own supervision. Senator Owen. You are enlarging upon the question of this agree- ment when in point of fact the agreement relates to the claims of the tribe and this is not a claim of the tribe; the agreement relates to claims existing then and this claim arose afterwards, and to go into the reading of that treaty and all this preamble takes a lot of time which I think is a waste of my time and a waste of the time of other members of the committee. I should be glad to have the gentleman make any suggestion he wishes, but I do think it ought to be done promptly and without waste of time. Mr. Ballingek. Senator, I will make my suggestion then, and eliminate any statement in the matter. Senator Owen. Make what statement you please, as far as I am concerned, but do not waste time. Mr. Ballingek. The point I was getting to, Senator, was simply this: There are two distmct classes of these Indians — the agreement class and the new-born class. The new-born class are claiming par- ticipation in the remaining funds equally with the agreement class. The agreement class deny the right of the new-born Sass to partici- pate in the remaining funds at Si, their contention being under the laws of Congress they were entitled only to ajU allotment and nothing more. When the case goes to the Court of Claims, it is the contention of those I represent that there should be representation there of both the new-born class and of the agreement class. Now, I am making no suggestion as to the employment of attorneys, the compensation to be paid, or anything pertaining to that; but there are two distinct claims over the same fund, and under this provision — as it is pending the reference would be made to the Court of Claims, the claim to be prosecuted in the name of the Creek Nation— no representation or pro- vision made for the representation of the two distinct classes. That is all that there is in the question, so far as I am concerned, and that is all that my clients are mterested in; but they do think that some provision ought to be made whereby the antagonistic inference may havt representatives before the court so that their claims may be properly presented to the court for decision. Senator Lane. That is, one class of the Creek Indians claims to be entitled to a portion of this money that are not provided for in this 1 Mr. Ballingek. Senator, in the report Senator Lane. I ask you, '^Yes or no" ? Mr. Ballingek. Yes, sir; and in the report of the department on this same matter that is pointed out. Senator Lane. This committee would do a lot better, I think, than it has done in the past, if it would take the time to ascertain INDIAN APPEOPRIATiON BILL. 713 facts, and I am going to get all the information I can, if I can possibly do so. Senator Owen. I was unaware of any claim being offered ; no one had suggested to me there was a claim offered on the part of the newborn children that they should have a right to donation for cer- tificates never issued to them. They were granted land by the Government acting in accordance with the resolution of the Creek council, but nobody had suggested to me that they claimed a right to bring a suit upon certificates which had never been issued to them and which had not been quaranteed by the treaty. If they desire to bring a suit, I think they ought to present their claim through some authorized representatives and have it considered as a part of the record. The Creek representatives brought this form of submission to me and I looked it over and I thought it was reasonable, except I think there ought to be a limitation as to the attorneys' fees, and that is why I make the suggestion. Senator Lane. What I claim, Senator La Follette, is it is left to the discretion of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Secretary of the Interior wdthout any definite reservation as to the amount to be paid out. They could pay it aU out if they wanted to for attorneys' fees, and I have said here that the conduct of the Indian Bureau and the discretion of the Indian Commissioner and the Secretary of the Interior have not been used in a manner which has inspired me mth a great deal of confidence in trying it any further, and I think it is up to this Congress to ^ that fee, and it is up to this committee to see that they shall be represented. Senator Owen. I suggest that Senator Lane propose a limitation. Senator Lane. I said I did not feel competent, but I will make one if I have to, one-haLf of 1 per cent. Senator Gronna. I suggest not to exceed 5 per cent. Senator Owen. The Senator from South Dakota suggests that it not exceed 5 per cent. ' Senator Lane. I claim that is too much. Senator La Follette. How much is involved ? Senator Lane. Three million dollars. The Chairman. Will you suggest a percentage, Senator Lane ? Senator Lane. I should like to hear from Senator La Follette. Senator La Follette. How long have the attorneys been employed in the case ? Senator Lane. They are not employed yet. They are yet to be employed, although I do not know whether that wipes out the claims of old attorneys, although it may. Senator Owen. The Creek authorities ought to know how long this has been running. They tell me it has been running since 1907. They have been arguing before the committees and before the depart- ment for some years, I know. The Chairman. We have a message requesting all to come on the floor and vote in executive session. I just lay that before you. Senator Owen. I shall be glad if the conmuttee will make some suggestion, in regard to this matter. The Chairman. What do you wish to do. Senator? Senator Owen. The Creek attorney suggests a possible maximum of 5 per cent. 714 INDIAN APPBOPBIATJON BILL. Senator Lane. On $3,000,000 that would amount to $150,000. That would be a nice fat fee for two years' work. I would suggest one-half of 1 per cent. Senator La Follette. Could not the matter of the attorney's fee be left open for consideration and investigation ? Senator Owen. Yes. Senator La Follette. I should not hke to do any injustice to the attorneys, but I am opposed to the enormous fees which have been going in these cases. Senator Lane. Why not put these attorneys on salary, say $10,000 a j^ear for three years 1 Senator La Follette. That would be businesslike. That is« what you would do if it were your own business. Senator Lane. And then contingent on their winning the case, you know; no cure, no pay. But if you place them on a salary of $10,000 a year you will save money for these Indians and get better work, too. And do you think under, the circumstances, in view of the statement made by Mr. Ballinger that this provides for but one-haK of the Indians, a large number of the others not being allowed representa- tion under this, that it is proper legislation ? Senator La Follette. I should think that all interests should be represented when the matter is submitted, and if there are con- flicting interests, certainly the conflicting interests ought to be represented. No one representing one side can take care of their interests if there be any conflicts. Senator Lane. Mr. Ballinger said this was done without this Senator Owen. I explained it awhile ago, but you walked out, and I thought you rather intimated in your language that some facts had been suppressed. Senator Lane. JN'o; I did not intimate anything of the kind^ but I did intimate, and I do wish to say it plainly, that they were not so plainly expressed that I understood them. Senator Owen. Here is the fact with regard to it, that there were certain newborn children, as I explained, who had no right to these certificates under the treaty. But afterwards, upon a resolution of the Creek Council, acting in the nature of an executive committee, the Government of the United States allotted 160 acres to these new- born children. Senator Lane. Did you say that council is not recognized by the Nation as being their representatives ? Senator Owen. These certificates are in the hands of individuals; it is not a national claim; it is Tom, Dick, and Harry, this man and that man had these different certificates, each one for a different amount. The Creek Council therefore did not represent them, according to, their contention. These children, however, were granted the addi- tional land, and that consumed the money that was to pay these certificates. Now these people who have these certificates come in and say: ^'You have used up the funds with which we were to be paid and we ask you to let us sue you to make good that deficit. Now, Mr. Ballinger comes in and thinks these childi^en would Uke to sue also for the deficit that might be allowed to them provided they had certificates, or that they might be allowed to contend that they ought to have a certificate, I suppose. INDIAN ^PEOPPIATJON BJI.L. 715 Senator Lane. Is that t)ie matter Senator Townsend was talking .^out the other day, that Jie wanted these children to have repre- sentation ? Senator Owen. But nobody has presented any claim here asking that these new-born children should bring a suit on a deficit they had not got. I have no objection to their suing on the certificates they have not got, if^ou like to have it put in the bill, but there was a very good reason why I had no occasion to present it, because I did not Jknow anything about it. Senator Lane. That statement made by Mr. Ballinger a few days ago was that we were closing the rolls against 52 or 54, or some odd number of people really entitled to their share of an allotment, and it would have gone through just hke that if somebody else outside of those officially here, I think, had not called attention to it, and I did not know but this might be another case of that sort. They say there are still several hundred others that are left out even yet. We have not corrected an injustice which this Government has visited upon certain of its wards. That is why I am particular about this. These people have no voice. Senator Owen. The question of the opening of the citizenship laws, of course, is another question, and if rolls were opened and if some addi- tional people were put on them, the number of these individuals claiming $1,040 might be increased by 15 or 20, or some such number. Senator Lane. If some are left off entirely and we go ahead and dispose of the money to other people, we never will Senator Owen. The Indians in this case, if put on the roUs and held in that amount Senator Lane. So, then, as agents for the Government and the Indians, it is our duty to look into these claims thoroughly and care- fully. That is the point I make. The Chairman. What is the pleasure of the committee ? Senator Owen. I ask that this matter go over, because there is some suggestion The Chairman. It will go over until to-morrow. Senator Gronna. I do not want to take up the time of the com- mittee, but as I am going away to-night to be gone a couple of weeks^ I ask to take up the bill which we considered a few minutes ago, Calendar No. 159. The Chairman. Have you got a departmental report on that? Senator Gronna. Yes; Senator Lane has the original report in his ojffice. It is a favorable report; in fact, this is a biU drawn by the department. The Chairman. We ought to have that report here to read it. Can you not send for it, Senator ? Senator Lane. The report was sent to me a few days ago and then I caQed upon the Commissioner of Indian Affairs for the documents containing the facts. They came into my office yesterday, and I have not had time to read them yet, but I can come in with the report to-morrow. . i . i -jr The Chairman. I have no objection. I just wanted to know it the committee wished to report the biU. ^ ^ Senator Gronna. I talked with the assistant commissioner about the bill. He knows what it is. It is simply allowing a certain claim ; 716 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. allowing some Indians to go to the Court of Claims; it is a bill, as I say, drawn by the department. I have made three or four minor changes which I have reported to the assistant commissioner and which he says are satisfactory. The Chairman. If you report the bill, will you make the depart- mental letter a part of your report ? Senator Gronna. I was going to ask this, that we report the bill out subject to the approval of the Senator from Oregon, Senator Lane, who really has this in charge. If he does not approve of it, of course the report will not go in, and I wanted to ask mm to make a report on it, if that is satisfactory to the committee. The Chairman. Is there any objection to that course being pur-* sued ? Senator Lane. I have none. The Chairman. The bill will be reported by Senator Lane, and you will make the departmental report favoring the legislation a part of your report ? Senator Lane. I will return the report with it. The Chairman. You have some items, Mr. Meritt, you wish to take up ? Mr. Meritt. There are some items others want to submit, Mr. Chairman, and I thought it well to be present. Senator Lane. Before you go into the appropriation bill I want to ask Mr. Meritt a question or two. Last year there were passed as live appropriations two or three deficits, one amounting to over $100,000, and another amounting to $250,000, which were reported and carried in the bill as appropriations — not appropriations, but as authority to appropriate money for the present fiscal year, which does not close until June. Except by close hunting there was no evidence by which ^ny one could ascertain that fact, and I want to know if this bill is carrying any such items as that, and if so, what they are, and if there are such deficits that they be properly named — that attention be called to the fact that they are deficits, so that he who runs may read and he who reads may run if he wants to. Are there any deficits ia thisbiU? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; no deficit that I now recall. vSenator Lane. There is an item of appropriation ia there of $250,000 which we are making for some Indians down south that was used last year to pay off a lot of bills that had been made the year before. Is there something like that in this bill? Mr. Meritt. We are asking for that same appropriation this year. Senator Lane. And for the same purpose ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; they have paid off their bills, and this is simply to advance that money of their own now in the Treasury of the United States. Senator Lane. I am glad to hear it. That is what I wanted to know. Then these appropriations will be live, existing appropria- tions for use during the next fiscal year all through ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; the $100,000 appropriation to which you refer was probably in connection with the purchase and transportation of goods. Senator Lane. I do not remember now which one it was. Mr. Meritt. There probably will be a small deficit for this fiscal year. We are trying to avoid it if we possibly can, but it is almost INDIAN APPEOPKIATION BILL. 717 impossible to state the exact amount of money that will be required to pay the freight charges on goods that are purchased in the Indian Service. Senator Lane. There is no objection to making a legitimate deficit if it is stated that it is a deficit and not carried as a live appropriation. Mr. Meritt, We are not asking for any deficit hi connection with the appropriation in this bill. Senator Lane. All right — nor any other ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; not that I now recall. Senator Lane. And none exists, and there are no deficits, you said ? Mr. Meritt. I should not want to make a broad statement like that, because there may be a small deficit on one or two of the appro- priations. Senator Lane. You will report that if there is ? Mr. Meritt. If there is, we shall be glad to advise you. I wish to state in that connection, Mr. Chairman, that I believe never before in the history of the preparation of Indian bills has there been sub- mitted so much detailed information as has been submitted to the House and Senate committees in connection with this bill. Wo have not attempted to conceal a single thing. We are glad to give this committee any information they may wish and which is within our power to give. The Chairman. I am sure I speak for the committee when I say you have given us a vast deal of help and taken us over the rocks a good many times. What further poiats are there, Senators ? Senator Clapp. In regard to the West matter, Senator Pitman and myself are agreeable to putting it on the bill. We have not been able to see Senator Lewis, and i should like to have it understood that if it is agreeable to Senator Lewis we will put the item on the bill, referring the same to the Court of Clauns for judgment. Senator Pittman. We may not agree exactly on the form of it; we will take it up later. The Chairman. All right. Senator Clapp. That we can fix when we get ready to put it in the bill. Senator Pittman. That is, to refer it to the Court of Clam.s for adjudication ? Senator Clapp. Yes. Senator Lane. There is a report from Senator Thompson here. Senator Thompson. It is a bill of the subcommittee of which I was chairman, now under consideration. I wanted to speak to Senator La Follette once more before we finally made report. Sena- tor Lane and I agreed on the bill with a slight amendment. Senator Lane. Then vou would not be prepared to report to-day ? Senator Pittman. I would rather speak to Senator La Follette and see if we can have a unanimous report. I think it will be unanimous. , . .^i ^i o at? There is another matter I have m connection with the bac and J^ ox Indians, Brown County, Kans., referred to the department simply, as I understand it, to give them the right to distribute certam funds already in the Treasury, are they not, belonging to this tribe i I have submitted it to Mr. Meritt, and he said he had drawn- a certain 718 INDIAN APPROPRIATiaN Bttt, amendment that is necessary. He does not have it to-day, btit wiJ have it to-morrow. Mr. Meritt. We will have it to-morrow. Senator Pittman. You have looked into that and ascertained i is proper ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; perfectly proper legislation. We hafe i few amendments we should like to submit to the committee befor( the bill is finally closed. It was our idea that some other matter would come up this afternoon, and that is the reason they are noi here. The Chairman. We shall not report the bill until the first of th( week, at least. Mr. Meritt. We will have the items here to-morrow. The Chairman. And you will have some of your other items her< to-morrow or Saturday, will you not? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I think this wiU be the last day anyone will \n heard. Is there anyone who wishes to be heard at this time? Mr. Butler. I have been here several days waiting the pleasure of the Senators on the equalization item, and I should Tike to make g brief statement before that is acted upon. It has gone over unti to-morrow, and if agreeable to the committee I prefer to make a briei statement at that time. The Chairman. Is there anyone else who wishes to be hBard here' Senator Lane. I should think if any item comes up to be considered hereafter, and if anyone has any information on it they ought to b( allowed to be heard. There are not many more items to. be con- sidered. Why close the hearing? Senator Owen. One reason is that Senators do not hke to come Uf here atid sit aU day listening to a lot of immaterial matter. I objed to it very sttongly. The Chairman. Is there anyone else? Mr. Brosius, do you wani to be heard ? Mr. Brosius. Possibly, as Senator Lane suggests, if the Mexicc Klckapoo matter came up, I might have some information that ] would ask to go in the record. Senator Owen. Why not give the gentlemen who wish to be hearc an opportunity, but let us have some settlement about it so we shal not keep on over and over again. I do not care who is heard providec the time be adjusted. Mr. Brosius. The matter I wish to present to the committee is t matter of record. I make a request that I be allowed to insert thh in the record as a matter of information. The Chairman. That is the communication addressed to me? Mr. Brosius. It is concerning that. The Chairman. I will read the communication. Mr. Brosius is the agent for the Indian Rights Association. Senator Owen. I do not wish to cut Mr. Brosius off, only I thoughl we ought to come to some understanding as to the time at which w( shall conclude the hearings. Senator Lane. For instance, supposing it comes up that som( Senator does not understand — myself, for instance — I should like th< privilege to ask for information concerning it from any person wh( has intimate knowledge of it, for my benefit and for the benefit of th( INI^IAN AI>PtlOiPBtATlON BILL. 719 u^?f It^-^^i* . ^. ^/^ ^^^ eomujue any more time than is necessary, but 1 thmk It IS better m th^ long run that we know the facts, if we can ascertam them. Is there any objection to that? Senator Owen. What I object to is Wasting my time. I have no objection to your a^scertdning any facts you Eke, but I do not want t© come up here and be ^ompeHed to sit around hour after hour waating for something to be done. Senator Lane. We are engaged at this time on this bill and I want to ascertam the facts pertaimng to it as nearly as I can without -v^astmg time. Senator Owen. That is all I wish to do, to avoid wasting time. Senator Lane, It depends a good deal on what a person calls a waste of time. Senator Owen. Yes; I think so. The Chairman. I know I am not myself a model of perspicacity and clearness of statement, but witness after witness has talked here without mdicating whether he was fdl- or against a proposition. They talk aU sorts of irrelevant and immaterial matters and we have to guess at the conclusions. They should state, at least, whether they are for or against a proposition. They ought to preface their statement with the statement as to whether they are for or against it. Senator Jjane. They may be neither for nor against it but may wish to state the facts. The Chairman. Senator Butler, what did you wish to present ? creek INDIAN ALLOTMENTS. STATEMENT OF HON. MARION BUTLER, ATTORNEY, WASH- INGTON, D. C. Mr. Butler. It was the Creek amendment which has been offered and which you have just had under discussion. The Chairman. Calendar 115. Mr. Butler. I sat here hoping to see a vote in favor of the bill and did not intend to say a word, and I will not now and prefer to wait until the committee acts, unless, if the committee pardon me, I will say that I am thoroughly familiar with everything connected with that item, with the Creek history, and everything about it. I do not suppose that anyone could be more familiar, for I know I am famiUar with it and with everything connected with it that would throw light on the subject for the committee, and the contract not having yet been approved pending the amendment, which leaves it to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Secretary of the Interior. But I have, since 1908, when the Creek Council employed me, been diligently pressing this claim and have become familiar, I think, with the whole matter. Now, what I have tried to do is to get results, not to be heard. I have filed and I have been heard by the Secretary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs several times and have been heard by this committee several times, and several bills have been favorably reported, and they have been heard on the other side, and I do not care to say anything more, unless it is in the interest of a clear understanding of the matter and unless it would conduce to the winding up of this matter in a just way. 720 INDIAN APPKOPEIATION BILL. I have sat here and hoped that the necessity of my being heard would be avoided; I did not want to be heard. I hoped to see the item voted upon, and if it was voted on and put in the bill those people could be heard in court. If they were white people, they would have had their case through the courts long ago, and I thmk they would have had their money long ago. We are makuig white people out of them, or citizens, and we are denying them the rights that a white man has. They have become citizens, and it is a poor privilege that they ask to go before our courts for a determination of their rights. It does seem to me to be a simple proposition, and the only question would be, as Senator Lane suggested, when you do it, that the legislation should be in such shape as would result in justice. That certainly seems to me to be the only question, and it was just on one point that I rose and upon which I asked to be heard, if at all. Now, I could make the statement very briefly and cover the whole case. ■• Senator Owen. I would like to ask you one question. Do those newborns claim the right to receive a certificate of equalization and the right to sue on that certificate ? Mr. Butler. No; no newborn has ever, so far as I know, ex- pressed individually any such desire among the Creek people — — Senator Lane. Pardon me. How old are the newborns? Mr. Butler. They are of different ages. Some of them were born right after che agreement, in 1901, and some of them were six years old when the last legislation was passed. So to-day the oldest one is the one born in 1901. Senator Lane. They would not be old enough to be heard. Mr. Butler. No. The Creek people have always handled theii matters — even the loyal Creek fund — by the Nation. Senator Owen. Your answer does not seem to answer. You said you had not heard of any of those children — of course those children are pretty young. Who is asking it for them ? ;\!t. Butler. The Creek people are asking that the courts or Con- gress shall determine how much is due them under the treaty whicl they made with the Government. Senator Owen. Given them. Who do you mean by that ? Mr. Butler. Given by the Creek people, who are entitled to s share according to the law. Senator Owen. Do you understand that the Creek authorities ar( asking a suit to be authorized in behalf of those newborn children Mr. Butler. All they ask is that the agreement be carried out they ask that every person who has been allotted and received a cer tificate and who has not received his $1,040, as the agreement pro vided, shall be given the additional amount. Senator Owen. You still do not answer my question. Did thi children receive a certificate? Mr. Butler. I do not think the children did. Senator Owen. Then they are not included in that description. Mr. Butler. I think the books of the Dawes Commission carry ai account with them showing the balance that would be due. Senator Owen. Do you understand that there is a suit pending oi behalf of those children up to $1,040? Mr. Butler. If a bill INDLA.N-^SPPEDPEIATIO]Sr BILL. 721' Senator Owen. No '4f" about it. Do you understand that, Sen- ator? Mr. Butler. Now, Senator, it is difficult to answer that, because it is a construction of what the treaty means. Senator Owen. No, it is not; it is a question of fact, whether these people are urging this claim or not. Do they urge it ? Mr. Butler. They urge that everyone that the Government has put on the rolls be paid from the appropriatiop $1,040. They claim they are not responsible Senator Owen. That includes these newborn children? Mr. Butler. They are not responsible for who is put on the roll. Senator Owen. I do not care about responsibility. I am ques- tioning you in regard to who is bringing this suit. Senator Lane. He wants to know who are the persons entitled to bring this suit. Does this bill cover those newborn children ? Mr. Butler. It covers them if the court should find them entitled to it. Senator Owen. You think this bill is broad enough to cover any litigants ? Mr. Butler. It is. Senator Owen. Have you passed on the form of this biU yourself ? Mr. Butler. I have; I drew the bill which was worked over by Judge AUen. He made some changes in it, but it is substantially the same biU. Senator Owen. Then you think this bill is broad enough to cover all ? Mr. Butler. Unquestionably. This puts the whole question so that there can never be any question raised, and that was the idea of the Creek people; it was the idea of Judge Allen, and it is the idea of everyone that I have talked to connected with the matter that they wanted every question connected with this claim and their rights xmder the treaty and the law determined, and this does it. Senator Owen. I think it is drawn too broadly. Mr. Butler. The courts may hold that The Chairman. May I ask you a question if it does not interrupt you? It seems to me that Mr. Balfinger, speaking a moment ago, mdicated that he did not think it was broad enough. You take issue with him, do you ? Mr. Butler. The language is broad enough; there is no question about it. It gives the court jurisdiction to determine who are entitled. The Chairman. Then you are in opposition to his position. You do not agree with Mr. BaUinger when he says it is not broad enough to cover them ? Mr. Butler. I disagree with him on that point. This bill gives the court authority to determine whether the Indians who were put on — what is called the agreement Indians — shall be considered entitled to a full share of the $1,040, or whether aU of the people put onto the roUs, including the newborns, shall be entitled, and then they can determine whether either or both are entitled. But there is a distinction between those put on under the agreement and it wiU arise in the court, and those put on by legislation subsequent to the agreement. There is a difference of opinion, I think, among the Creek people about whether the newborns should have the $1,040 or not. Tiiere has always been a difference of opinion whether they 39746— PT 3—14 2 722 INDIAN APPEOPKIATION BILL. should have had an allotment of 160 acres. Some thought they should and some thought they should not. The Government did that mthout the permission of the Indians. Senator Owen did not intend to misstate the facts, and did not technically^ when he said that it was on account of a resolution passed by the Creek council asking that the newborns up to a certain date — from 1906, those that were born between 1901 and the date of the agreement, up to 1906, — should be put on the rolls. It was the result of that request that Congress passed what is called the newborn legislation, supplement- ing the agreement and putting on some 800 or 1,000 more. The Creeks did pass such a resolution, but when they passed it they said they did not know how many names were on the roll, and whether there were enough funds to give them $1,040 to every one. The question was raised, and the other Five Civihzed Tribes are following the course, and they wanted to follow it if they had enough money. As the record shows — I have not it here but I. could turn to it m a moment if I had it — Chief Porter asked the Dawes Commission to furnish him with information as to how many people* had been enrolled. All he knew was that he and his tribe turned the rolls over to the Dawes Commission; a little less than 13,000 names were on it. Those were Creeks that they recognized. Those were the roUs of the Creek people when their tribe decided to break up, or this Govern- ment decided to break it up and make citizens of them. The Dawes Commission was authorized to take that roll and revise it. It was the duty of the Dawes Commission, Mr. Chairman, to cut that roll down if they found anybody on it who ought not to be on it; that was their duty if they found that some one was on it who should not be. Chief Porter and his people begged here time and again, as the record shows, to help the commission to determine who should be on the roll; they were denied that right. When this resolution was passed Chief Porter officially addressed an inquiry to the Dawes Commission asking to be furnished with the rolls as they had been fixed — as the Dawes Commission had made them up. He got no answer. He took his national attorney and went to the Dawes Commission and made a personal request. They took his personal request under advisement, and it was the end of two years before he got an answer, when his request was denied. Then he put in his desk, pigeonholed, that resolution at the conference with his people. Why? If there was not enough money to pay $1,040, land and money to everyone, he did not want to pass it; he did not want that resolution to become effective, and that resolution was found in his desk when. he died, unapproved by him, and it had never been sent here by him, or anywhere else. Now, the law provides that no resolution of the Creek Council shall be effective without it is approved by the President or the Secretary of the Interior. That never was sent here for approval. It is true that some f ewindividuals probably came up here — it is so stated — and asked before congressional committees that that be done, and they stated that the council passed the resolution, but they did not bring it. It was never brought here. They were that careful that they did not commit themselves, and that is a question that the court will have to pass upon — whether they were committed by that action or not. It will be a question that the court wiU have to determine whether it bound them or not, and it is one of the many questions that will INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. 723 have to be passed upon by the courts. If the courts should find that they were bound, the court would then say that everybody put on by the Dawes Commission were entitled to a share in the property. Then the court would say whether the Government was responsible for the deficit; and if so, they would render judgment. If the Gov- ernment was not responsible it would render no judgment — not one cent. So, gentlemen, this may wind up with their not getting one farthing. It may wind up by the court determining that the agreement Indians were entitled to $1,040 and that what the Government gave the newborns was a gift, and they were not entitled to anything else. But as the amendment is drawn the whole question is before the court and the court must determine it, because you have given them the jurisdiction. So it would clean up the matter entirely and then there would be a judicial determination of it, which it seems to me is desirable, because there would not be any hereafter. Now, there were two thousand eight hundred and some odd put on by the Dawes Commission more than the Creeks recognized. That was the first step before a deficit, and then under the newborn legis- lation there were 2,700 more added, and that, with various other things that were done, caused the deficit, which I could easily explain to the committee. It is a long history and it is a httle complicated, but it can be stated very plainly. I do not have to read any of it for I know it all, as to why there is a deficit. But there is tliis much plain. Senators: When they employed me I advised them to appeal to the conunittees of Congress to pay them the money instead of going to court, because it is a doubtful question whether they could win in the court, and I still think so, as I thought then. The first bill which I prepared — or my associates who were em- ployed by the Creek Council — provided for paying, as a direct appro- priation to these people the difference between what they had re- ceived and the $1,040. After a heariug the committee almost unanimously, as I remember, decided that there were so many points of controversy, there were a number of questions asked about the new borns, and whether they were boimd or not bound — that almost unanimously they decided that it was a question the committee did not have time to pass upon and hear all the controverted points, and it would be sent to the court. This very bill reported by this committee is one to send their claim to the Court of Claims — and so several favorable reports are, and there have been, session after session, amendments on Indian appropriation bills carrying this, and- there have been hearings in the other House, and if we are finally driven to go to the court, they may not recover a cent. The Chairman. If you will pardon me, there seems to be conflict- ing views; you gentlemen fail to harmonize, in this: It seems that Mr. Ballinger's opposition to the proposed legislation flows from the ^fact that he feels that one attorney should represent the Creek Nation and another attorney should represent the new borns. He indicates the feeling that one attorney might not be zealous in representing both sides — in fact could not represent both sides. It seems that if there were a provision added that the new borns should have an attor- ney, or an attorney were chosen, there could not be any opposition to the legislation. Mr. Allen. There is no conflict. 724 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Butler. There is no conflict tliat I can see, and I have always contended — and Judge Allen agrees with me, as he has just stated — that there can be no conflict. If I present this case to the court, there is nothing you can do. You are dealing with a court. They are not dealing with babes, but lawyers. You present all the law and the facts. Your first statement is a statement of facts as to the status of the agreement Indians and the newborns. If the court shall find that the newborns are entitled to the guarantee of $1,040, as provided by the agreement, then we would ask for a judgment for all, which would be something over $3,000,000. If the court should hold that the Government was not responsible for the deficit except as to the agreement Indians, then there would be a judgment for $1,600,000. Now, as to conflict, Mr. Chairman and Senators, consider yourselves an attorney with a contingent fee for which you had been author- ized by the Secretary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to prosecute these cases. Why, naturally, if we simply act for the tribe in just an attorney's position, nobody's interest would suffer, because we want to recover all we can convince any court we are justly entitled to. That is the duty of a lawyer, and I certainly should put everything before the court that was true and every phase of it that was tenable and just as to the claims of all of them, out I will say to you frankly that my judgment is that the court may find — and the chances are in favor of it finding — that the agreement Indians are entitled to an equalization of $1,040, and if they should find that, then the judgment will be, in round numbers, $1,600,000 instead of $3,000,000, and that will be all there will be to it. Mr. Allen. It would not be that much now. Mr. Butler. No ; it would not be that much, but this we figured before the last money was received. They collected some money in suits down there — I have not the figures as to how much they have collected, but they have some in. It will be less than that. That was what it was the last time I figured it up. Now, how there can be any conflict is beyond my capacity as a lawyer to see. The Chairman. Mr. Ballingei*, why^do you object to what Mr. Butler has said ? Mr, Butler. Please let me finish my statement. Since I have been representing these people I have agreed to every suggestion of every kind that has been made that would not defeat their interests, but would further them. I have agreed to every bill that has been reported by the committee heretofore, and they have recognized me and my firm as the attorneys, and we have been directed to bring" this suit. There was no question left about it. We were the first attorneys who ever appeared here and the first ones who secured a bill that was reported favorably. Since 1907 we have been appearing before the committees of both Houses of Congress, appealing for their rights. Every bill that has been reported has named me as attorney, or my firm and Kappler & Merrilat, whom we employed at the same time. When Judge Allen suggested, as he did to me, that he thought we had bee.n fighting here so long that if this were left to the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs and the Secretary of the Interior there would be a big confhct arising about attorneys, there being a citizens' association down there that would employ other attomevs: that if INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 725 we would leave this whole matter to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Secretary of the Interior to determine whether, first, one attorney should be employed, and, if so, whom — I said, ''Judge, if you think that is necessary and will not retard this le.2:islation I shall not say a word." So Judge Allen wi'ote into this bill, as it is Jiere, that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs should consider the contract made by the Creek Nation, as ours was made, or by indi- viduals, and he made it as broad as all outdoors, so as to transfer the matter fromi this committee to the Department of the Interior, and I understand he conferred vnth. the Interior Department before doing this to decide that question. It might decide to employ none and require him to prosecute the suits. When we were employed, the national attorney not only was up to his ears every minute in business, but he had to employ extra counsel to help him. There were so many cases in court that one man could not deal with all of them, and they might ignore our service. They can do it under this law. I agreed to it. If it advances this legislation, and I can not convince the Secretary of the Interior and the Coimnissioner of Indian Affairs that we should represent them., and that we are entitled to consideration for what we have done, I have not a word to say. That is why I did not say a word when I sat here and this legislation was brought up. I have not talked about myself or a fee. I have not taken the time of the committee with that, but since the question has arisen I wiU make that statement. But that question is not an issue here. The Chairman. Mr. Ballinger, why is it this is not broad enough to cover the newborns ? Mr. Ballinger. The provision would undoubtedly enable the court to pass upon any question in the case. The Chairman. If it enables the court to pass upon any question, what is the objection? That is what you want, is it not ? Mr. Ballinger. Certainly, and I am only anxious to get the case squarely before the court, which I do not think it can be under this law, and I will tell you why. The Chairman. You just said it would permit the court to pass upon it ? Mr. Ballinger. It would not let the case go squarely before the court. A could not represent B and C if B and C had diametrically opposite claims, and that is the situation here. The Chairman. You think there should be one attorney to repre- sent the newborns and one attorney to represent the others ? Mr. Ballinger. That is exactly what I think. The Chairman. That is what you think? . Mr. Ballinger. Precisely; and, further than that, I find m the departmental report The Chairman. You need not read any of that to us. We want to find out what you think. Mr. Butler. I will say Senator Lane. Just briefly, what does the department say? There has been a long talk on the other side, and this man, I thmk, is entitled to just as much consideration as the other. Mr Butler That very question, Senator, was considered m the drawing of the bill that Judge Allen drew. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Secretary have power to employ an attorney 726 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. to represent the individuals as well as the nation if he sees fit. It is broad enough for him to do anything and we thought that trans- ferred the whole question to the court. Senator Clapp. Senator Butler, I have gone over this matter a great many times but it is a long case, and of course there have been a great many other cases presented. Is there anything in this case that would lessen the recovery of what we call the "agreement Indians" in case the new-borns were covered? Mr. Butler. Not at all. Senator Clapp. That is my understanding of it. I simply wanted to get an expression from you . Mr. Butler. There is no conflicting interest because if the new * born Indian gets $1,040, they get it. Senator Clapp. The treaty or agreement would get just as much whether the new-borns were allowed to come in or not ? Mr. Butler. Why, certainly. They get $1,040 or nothing. The court could hold, if the court were to agree, that the new-borns are to get $1,040. It does not take away from the others. It simply increases the judgment against the United States. The Chairman. The attorney representing the agreement Indians would have no motive in trying to preclude the newborns because the agreement Indians would not receive any less? Mr. Butler. There could not be any conflict that I can see. I have never tried to argue it, but there can not be, in my judgment, and the Secretary could, if he saw fit, even employ attorneys to do that. Senator Clapp. Mr. BalUnger, I want to ask you if your under- standing of this case is that the recovery of the newborns would lessen the amount which the agreement Indians could recover? !Mr. Ballinger. Yes, sir; in one respect it would. Senator Clapp. How? That is the vital question. Mr. Ballinger. Let me explain to you that that is the very ques- tion at issue here. If the agreement Indians made a recovery against the United States it would be upon the theory that they had not recommended the legislation under which the newborns were en- rolled, and therefore their claims would be conflicting. Senator Clapp. WeU, that does not demonstrate it. How would the recovery by the newborns lessen the amount which of the agree- ment Indians would recover, supposing that the courts held that both were entitled to recovery? Mr. Ballinger. It would lessen it in this way: Suppose no judg- ment at all was recovered against the Government, and the question of the division of the funds now on hand was before the court and the court would pass on that. Then the question arises, shall the agreement Indians receive all the funds on hand for the purpose of equalization, or shall those funds be divided equally between the new- borns and agTeement class ? Now, there is a direct issue. Senator Clapp. Senator Butler, what have you to say to that? Mr. Butler. That is a question that is not before the court. Tlje only question this bill sends to the court is to determine whether or not they are entitled to have the difference between the allotment and the $1,040, and they wiU get that or nothing. Senator Clapp. That is what I understand. INDIAN APPEOPKIATION BILL. 727 The Chaieman. What possible objection could there be, then, to providing that the newborns should have an attorney of their own selection as well as the agreement Indians ? Is that satisf actor}^ to yoQ? Mr. Balltnger. Certainly. Mr. Butler. I have no objection to that except this— which is not an issue here unless we change the bill. Then of course, I should urge before the Interior Department that under my contract I should represent the agreement Indians, for we are employed by the tribe, and that would simply restrict us in our argument for the claun of the agreement Indians and the other attorneys, if the department saw fit to recognize them, would simply duplicate our arguments prac- tically for the others. But it leaves it up to the court, and I have no objection to such an amendment. The Chairman. Senator Owen, have you any objection to such an amendment ? Senator Owen. None at all. I thought the amendment should be broad enough to cover any individual claim. But there is another amendment that I wish to suggest to the bill. . I am not satisfied with the way it is dra^vn. I move to insert in the bill on line 10, page 2, after the word '' amount '^ the words ''if any, as may be found by the United States and." The Chairman. If there is no objection that amendment will be made. Senator Owen. I think that is involved in the language, but it ought to be made perfectly plain. Mr. Allen. There is just one statement I want to make in view of the statements of both Mr. Ballinger and Senator Butler. I, as this committee knows, am employed by the Creek Nation iipon a yearly salary. I draw this amendment at the request of Senator Owen, because he was busy. After I had drawn it Senator Butler came to the office where I am working and asked me about it and I told him I had dictated an amendment, and he submitted one that he had drawn. His amendment provided for the reccgnition of the contract that he has with the tribe, and that the Court of Claims should ^1^ a fee. I took both amendments and tried to prepare one that I thought would do justice to the people I represent. He came back and complained about the provision in the amendment requirmg the fee to be fixed by the Secretary of the Interior and the Com- missioner of Indian Affairs, and also about the fact that it did not recognize the contract. He also asked me to go with him to see Senator Owen and talk to him about the question of point of order being made, and I said, ''I do not want to treat with you; I do not want to confer with you. I think m all human probabihty I will resist the payment of any money to any outside lawyers. I think I ought to bring these suits under my employment as attorney for the Creek Indians, but in order that this amendment might be passed I have consented reluctantly to a provision authorizing the recognition of any other contract." I do not thmk that Senator Lane need fear any ill effects from this amendment, because I will insist at all times upon a very small fee being fixed, if any at all is paid. I think this amendment IS m good form --- The Chairman. In its present form you thmk it is salutary i 728 INDIAN APPRO PEIATION BILL. Mr. Allen. Yes, sir. For years and years the people I represent have msisted upon this committee passing legislation authorizing them to go into the Court of Claims, and it was because of the failure to secure such legislation that the;y- in desperation went in search of outside counsel. There can possibly be no conflict between the claims of the new borns and the agreement Indians. The maximum amount that any one of them — new borns or agreement Indians — could possibly receive under the treaty would be $1,040. The claim I would make in this suit — and that is what this amend- ment authorizes me to do — is that every member of the Creek Tribe of Indians who has been allotted 160 acres of land or who has been admitted to the roll, regardless of when he was admitted to the roll, ^ is entitled to recover the sum of $1,040. I would insist, of course, representing as I would every member of the tribe, upon the right of every citizen of the tribe, regardless of when he was enrolled, to recover $1,040, or the difference between $800 that has been paid him by the former amendment and J 1,040. I would insist to the last upon that — to the last court that I could appeal to. If the court should hold that the new borns are not entitled to an equalization of their allotments — as I am inclined to think they might do — then, of course, only the agreement Indians would be paid the distributive share, but in that sort of litigation I would urge for all the citizens of my tribe, regardless of when enrolled, all that the treaty provides that they could get, and I can not see how any man can contend for a minute that the interests of the new borns and the agreement Indians could possibly come into conflict. Senator Clapp. Back of this bill is there not this condition — -I am asking for information — that the failure of the newborns to recover would increase, not the recovery by this bill of the agreement Indians, but would increase the distributive share in the existing fund of the other Indians ? Mr. Allen. In reply to that. Senator Clapp, a few days ago an amendment was passed authorizing the payment of $800 to the agreement Indians. The Secretary of the Interior — and I quite agree with him — thought it best to reserve something like $1,200,000 of the Creek funds, leaving in the Treasury of the United States to the credit of the Creek Nation a balance of over $900,000 to take care of those who may be allotted hereafter. So that if it is determined latei that they are entitled to a share with the agreement Indians, they are to be paid that money. Now, this suit will have a dual effect. I will contend strongly that the newborns and the adult Indians are entitled to an equalization of their allotments upon a basis of $1,040. If the Court of Claims should hold that they are not entitled to an equalization of their allotments, of course Congress would then pass an act authorizing the distribution of the remaining $1,200,000 among the agreement Indians, but that is not involved and could not possibly be in- volved in any way in this litigation. The Chairman. It would not be involved directly in this litigation ? Mr. Allen. Not in any way. Senator Clapp. Well, would not the final residuum be larger per capita to the agreement Indians if the newborns were held not to have any rights in the suit brought under this bill ? INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. 729 Mr. Allen. No, sir; if I can recover in a suit brought under this bill the $1,040. The Chairman. Where will this residuum go ? Mr. Allen. To demonstrate; if there were enough money now in the Treasury of the United States to pay the agreement Indians $1,240, instead of $1,040, for example, then there might be a conflict between the claims of the newborns and the adult Indians in the Court of Claims, because in such event the loss by the newborns in that litigation would result in the agreement Indians recovering not $1,040, but $1,240, a siu'plus of $200; but there is not enough money in the Treasury to equalize the agreement Indians upon the basis of $1,040. So they are as much interested as the newborns are in the Court of Claims rendering a judgment in favor of the Creek Nation for enough to equalize all allotments upon a basis of $1,040. Do I make myself plam? Senator Clapp. Yes. Mr. Allen. Because there is not enough m the treasury to equalize the agreement Indians upon the basis of $1,040, there can not be .^ny conflict. Senator Lane. You all seem to be in agreement on that, that there is no disposition to keep these newborns, or whoever they are, out of any money ? Mr. Allen. I am going to contend that there is. Senator Lane. Why not write it in the bill? Mr, Allen. It is. Senator Lane. Perfectly plain and specifically ? I understood you to say that you would assure me that the attorneys would not get an excessive fee; that you would not consent to it. Mr. Allen. I say I will resist the payment of any. Senator Lane. You would not have much to say about it, would you ? Mr. Allen. No, sir; except as attorney for the Creek Indians. I am more interested than any one else in the tribe by reason of my connection with them, and I am going to do my best to protect them, a-nd I would not offer an amendment here that I thought could pos- sibly do violence to them, though I have no objection to lunitmg the amount. Senator Lane. That would make it safer, would it not, and more snecific ? Mr. Allen. Yes, sir; I am not very much impressed, frankly, with the argument urged for a big fee. I thmk the service that has been performed by all the attorneys connected with this matter has been not so much in the interest of the Indians as it has been m the interest of the fee agreement that they have with them, and I am not saymg that in criticism of the lawyers, because it is perfectly legitunate to recover the fee if, by the good graces of this committee, they are per- mitted to do so. 1 X X 1. • 4-- ^ ^ Senator Lane. In what I said a while ago about not being satisfied to leave it to the Secretary of the Interior, I meant no reflection upon the present occupant of that position, I mean such titular oflicials. They come and go, and so do the Secretaries; and they have come and gone in the past, and I can not see much evidence tnat the Indians have ever acquked much benefit from their existence, or that of anybody else, as far as that is concerned; also, I doubt whether 730 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. we could make it specific, without offending the dignity of some person, but it will not hurt them to have it specific. It makes it easier for them to decide. It lightens their burden and also the burden of the Indians. Mr. Butler. If you will pardon me, I am sure Judge Allen did not mean to pervert what I said to him, but his statement is calculated to give an erroneous impression. The judge said I insisted upon my contract staying in the bill and to go to Senator Owen with it. The judge will remember the circumstances and he will not insist that I asked him to go to Senator Owen about a fee. Now just what oc- curred, let me state ^ Mr. Allen. I want to say Mr. Butler. I am perfectly clear about it, and I am sure you will not contradict me when I have stated it. Mr. Allen. I did not say that. Mi\ Butler. The bill that I took to you. Judge, is exactly the bill that has passed the Senate or that has been reported by this com- mittee twice, and I agreed perfectly to the changes you had niade when you stated your reasons, that you thought it would facilitate this matter to leave the wbole thing to the Secretary of the Interior. The only point on which I suggested going to Senator Owen— and I asked if you would not go along — was to whether this amendment and the one paying $800 should be all one amendment or two, and you thought we had better talk to Senator Owen and ascertain whether he thought it would be subject to a point of order and we might lose both. I said, ''Well, I think I will talk to the Senator if you will go along," and you said as attorney you would rather not appear to take sides with any attorney. I did not want to bother Senator Owen with the suggestion of the matter of fees, and I do not want that impression left, and I am sure you do not want to leave it. Mr. Allen. I intended that statement to be disconnected from any reference to the fee, and in order that I may make myself perfectly plain I want to say that it was after the final draft of this bill and after Senator Butler had stated that it would be satisfactory to his, but he insisted that this provision be connected with the provision distributing the SSOO. Mr. Butler. In one amendment. Mr. Allen. I told him that Senator Owen said the matter might go out on a point of order, and he thought if it was introduced at all it ought to be introduced as a separate measure. Senator Butler contended that the provision referring the matter to the Court of Claims was not subject to a point of order. I said I did not know anything about that but I said, ''I suggest that you discuss that with Senator Owen." It was the point-of-order feature of it and that is the only matter that I had any reference to Senator Owen about. Mr. Butler. That was exactly it. Mr. Allen. I told him then what I thought about recognizing them. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, it is the opinion of the department that this bill is sufficiently broad to cover both the Creek-agreement Indians and the newborn Creeks. I beheve, however, that it might be amended so as to make it a little bit clearer on line 10 of page 2. The Chairman. Senator Owen has suggested an amendment that has been adopted. Have you another amendment ? INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 7S1 Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; beginning with the comma on line 8 begin- ning with the words ''with right of appeal, if any, as may be necessary/^ insert after the word ''necessary" the words "in addition to the." Senator Owen. "As may be found due by the United States," I suggested there. The Chairman. Senator Owen's amendment proposed to insert after the word "amount" the words "if any, as may be found due by the United States and." Mr. Meritt. I did not know that language had been incorporated in the bill. That wdl cure it. The Chairman. Does that meet your view ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Now, for the purposes of the record, I understand you to take the view that this is sumciently broad to cover both the agreement Indians and the new borns, and under this amendment the rights of both classes may be considered and adjudicated by the Court of Cla^s ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; and also to meet the objection raised by Senator Lane and to reheve the department of any embarrassment, 1 would suggest that you insert, after the word "judgment," in hne 15 page 3, the words "in no event to exceed SI 5,000." Senator Lane. Senator La FoUette said he wanted to be heard on that. Senator Clapp. I do not understand that we are going to conclude this bill to-day. Senator Lane. That is one-half of 1 per cent. I am in favor of one- half of 1 per cent, or $15,000 — not to exceed that amount. The Chairman. If there is no objection, the followmg language will be inserted after the word "judgment," making a Umitation of the fee, limiting the same to one-half of 1 per cent, "but in no event to exceed $15,000." Is there objection to that? Senator Lane. You have not a quorum here, Mr. Chairman. Senator Clapp. I do not expect that anyone will oppose the adop- tion of this amendment this afternoon. I understand that we are simply finishing the bill. Senator Owen. I think it ought to go over. Senator Clapp. We are simply making tentative amendments. The Chairman. The amendment is on page 3, hne 15, of the bill, after the word "judgment," to insert a hmitiation of the fee, that it shall not be more than one-half of 1 per cent. Senator Clapp. Not to exceed in any event $15,000. That makes it shorter and means the same thing. Senator Owen. The committee this afternoon made a report on a biU relating to the Cheyennes for 5 per cent. What is the idea of the committee in putting it at 5 per cent in one place and makmg it $15,000 in another? , ^ .^ •. .» The Chairman. That was referred to a subcommittee, was it not f Senator Owen. It was done by this committee. It was in Senator Gronna's bill. . ^ .. ^^u + i.n The Chairman. Senator Lane, you are gomg to report that bill. Senator Lane. It has not been reported. They adopted it subject to my approval, but I have not heard aU the facts, and I want to say to the commissioner that the history of it is not complete; some of the records are not complete in regard to the treaty or agreement, and 732 INDIAN APPROPHIATION BILL. I think all facts ought to be ascertained. I think Senator Owen is right. We ought to ascertam the amount involved and then estimate it on a percentage basis. I am with you on that in all such cases. Senator Owen. I think it is well enough to have the reservation. Senator Lane. I think so. Senator Owen. I do not think we ought to follow that general pohcy, because we ought not to have it in a slipshod way, sometimes one way and sometimes another. Senator Lane. I think you are right. There is this question in regard to the Blackfeet Reservation: Under the law which was passed in 1907 it seems that those Indians, under the reclamation scheme, have but a limited time in which to secure their water rights, and if i they do not do certain things — ^which seem to be impossible for them to do under the circumstances under which they are placed — they will lose then water rights, and with them, of com'se, all of their val- uable property. Now, that law should be amended, and the defect, which is a serious one, should be cured. I am going to ask the Assistant Commissioner if he would care to or wishes to draw up an amendment which will cure the defects of that bill of 1907 as it relates to the Blackfeet and all other Indians where the same con- dition exists. The Chairman. Did we not take care of that in this legislation? Senator Lane. Did you? I was not aware of it. The Chairman. I think we used the greatest care in that regard. Senator Lane. On the BlacMeet? The Chairman. Yes; and the commissioner's estimates take care of that. The House committee struck it out, and the Senate com- mittee has remserted it, and has substantially provided that failure or lapse on the part of the Indians shall not destroy their rights. Senator Lane. I am very glad to hear it. The Chairman, And it substatially says that all laws and parts of laws in conflict with that are repealed. KICKAPOO INDIANS. t Mr. M. J. Bentley. Mr. Chairman, this is a matter that pertains to your discretion The Chairman. I have no discretion at all. Mr. Bentley. It was suggested that those who had anything to offer should make it known now. Mr. Brossius has suggested that he intended to put into the record such things with reference to the Kickapoos. I have represented the Kickapoos for many years and am probably the only person who knows anything about their con- dition in Mexico personally, and I am going to ask if anything is offered to appear in this record that I may be heard. I think it would only be fair to me if Mr. Brossius has anything to say that he make his statement orally and that I be given an opportunity to- reply to it. The Chairman. I believe that Mr. Brossius handed me certain matter for insertion in the record, and if there is no objection it will go into the record. Mr. Bentley. I wish to say that I had nothing to do with the preparation of the item now in the bill. The Indian Office prepared it. INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. 733 The Chairman. This is what Mr. Brossius says Senator Clapp. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest that you will have to read that again when certain membei^ of the committee who are now absent are present. What Mr. Bentley wants is this, if there is anything put in the record here that he be given an opportunity to answer it. Senator Lane. And he is entitled to do that. The Chairman. I am sure you will be given an opportunity to answer it, and anyone else. Senator Lane. I move that the committee do now adjourn until to-morrow at 2 o'clock. The motion was agreed to, and the committee at 4 o'clock and 50 minutes p. m. adjourned until to-morrow, Friday, April 17, 1914, at 2 o'clock p. m. APRIL 17, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock p.m. Present: Senators Ashurst (chairman), Lane, Thompson, La Toi- lette, and Townsend. The Chairman. The committee will come to order. TRIBAL funds, SAC AND FOX LANDS. Senator Thompson. Mr. Chairman, there is a matter I spoke of yesterday regarding the Sac and Fox Indians that I would like to call the attention of the committee to at this time. I have prepared an amendment upon the subject, and Mr. Meritt can explain the matter. The amendment is as follows : That the Secretary of the Interior be, and he is hereby authorized, in his discretion, under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe, after the assessments made on Sac and Fox tribal lands by drainage district No. 1, in Richardson County, Nebr., shaU have been paid, and after the Indians whose allotments are vrithin the drainage dis- trict shall have received their proportionate shares of the tribal funds as authorized by the act of May 13, 1910 (36 Stat. L., p. 368), to distribute and pay per capita to the remaining members of the tribe entitled thereto the tribal funds on deposit, in the Treasury of the United States to the credit of the Sac and Fox of the Missouri Tribe, under the above act, in the same manner as provided by the act of April 21, 1904 (3S Stat. L., p. 201). That is where certain members of the tribe were paid property and part of their fund, and it is part of the share of those who did not have any lands and who received no funds for drainage purposes. Is that right, Mr. Meritt ? That is as I understand it. Mr. Meritt. There is about $29,000 now in the Treasury belonging to these Indians, and under previous legislation we have no authority to pay it out to them. This legislation is explained in the letter of the department dated March 4, 1914, and as it is short I will read it to the committee: Department of the Interior, Washington, March 14, 1914- My Dear Senator: The act of June 14, 1906 (34 Stat. L., 262),auth9rized the payment to Sac and Fox allottees within the boundaries of the drainage district No. 1 of Richardson County, Nebr., their proportionate share of the ''paper principal" less the assessments which might be made on the land not exceeding $7 an acre. The act of May 13, 1910 (36 Stat. L., 368), amended this act by increasmg the assess- ment to not to exceed $9.50 an acre. 734 INDIAN^ APPROPEIATION BILL. The act of March 1, 1907 (34 Stat. L., 1015-1031) authorized the Secretary of the Interior to pay per capita to members of the Sac and Fox of the Missouri Tribe of Indians entitled thereto the remainder of their "paper principal," amounting to $100,400. All the members of the tribe, consisting of 88 persons, shared in the per capita payment made under this act and the fact that the act of June 14, 1906, provided for the payment to allottees within the drainage district of their proportionate share in the "paper principal" seems to have been overlooked. On October 20, 1913, this department authorized the superintendent of the Kickapoo School to expend $27,847.15— ^$19.63 in paying the assessment on tribal lands and the remainder so far as necessary in settling the assessments against allotments. Where the assessment was less than the proportionate share of the allottees, the super- intendent was authorized to pay the remainder to the allottee if he was an adult competent and to return the remainder in the case of incompetents and minors to the Treasury for deposit to the credit of individual Indians. The act of June 14, 1906, retained $57,000 for the payment of assessments on tribal lands, and the proportionate shares of allottees whose lands were included within the district. Since all the members of the Sac and Fox Tribe have received their propor- tionate shares in the $100,400 payment, they are entitled to share in that part of the "paper principal " appropriated by the act of 1906, but this department had authority to pay shares only to those allottees who are within the drainage district. In order that the remainder of this money, amounting to $29,152.85, may be distributed among the remaining members of the tribe, I have prepared and submit herewith a draft of a bill to authorize the payment of this money and recommend that it be enacted into law. Very truly, yours, A. A. Jones, First Assistant Secretary. Hon. William J. Stone, Chairman Committee on Indian Affair Sj United States Senate. We did not pay out all the $57,000 provided for drainage purposes, as authorized by the act of 1906, and there is now remaining m the Treasury to the credit of these Indians $29,152.85 which we would like to have authority to pay to those Indians, Senator Lane. How many are there ? Mr. Meritt. About 100. The Chairman. And this proposed legislation is exactly as the department wishes it to be ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. It does not require any appropriation. It simply authorizes the use of the funds of the Indians, and they want those funds distributed pro rata. Senator Townsend. Is there any question of enrollment involved? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Townsend, Are there not people who claim they are entitled to go on the roUs who have been left off ? Mr. Meritt, No, sir; that question does not arise. The Chairman. Did you look at the bill. Senator Thompson, to see where you desired to insert this amendment ? Senator Thompson. No; I will say that I have no personal interest in the matter and no personal knowledge of it. One of the Indians whom I am acquainted with in Kansas City came here and called my attention to it, and also Congressman Anthony from this district said it was a matter that had been overlooked and that it ought to be included in this bill. It is simply a question of authority to pay money that should have been distributed. The Chairman. What State are these Indians in? Senator Thompson. Kansas and Nebraska, Mr. Meritt. There is a member of the tribe present and the coin- mittee might hear him. The Chairman. Very well, we will hear him. iJNDlAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 735 STATEMENT OF CHARLES RUBERDON, RESERVE, KANS. The Chairman. Do you wish to make a statement or to be inter- rogated ? Mr. RuBERDON. I have nothing particularly to say only that I submitted this matter to Senator Thompson and to a Representative of our State to present this matter to you for consideration, and it was referred to the Office of Indian Affairs several times, but in some way it was prone to linger, and I was sent here to urge the matter along. The Chairman. What tribe do you belong to ? Mr. RuBERDON. I belong to the Sac and Fox. The Chairman. How many of those Indians are there? Mr. Ruberdon. About 99, if I am not mistaken. Senator Thompson. There are about 99 that this sum is to be distributed amongst? Mr. Ruberdon. I think so. Senator Thompson. There are more than that in the entire tribe, are there not ? Mr. Ruberdon. Yes, sir; a little more than that, I think, but those who are enrolled number 99. Senator Thompson. As I understand it the owners of the land in this drainage district received their proportionate share of this sum originally, of the $100,000? Mr. Ruberdon. Yes, sir. Senator Thompson. And there have been a few of the members of the tribe who did not have the advantage of this money in the drain- age district and who are not owners of the land and who have not received their share, is that it ? Mr. Ruberdon. That is it. Senator Thompson. That amounts to about $29,000 ? Mr. Ruberdon. Yes, sir. Senator Thompson. And that is the purpose of this amendment to enable those who did not participate to have their share ? Mr. Ruberdon. Yes, sir; that is it exactly. The Chairman. Are there any members of the tribe who are opposed to this proposed legislation ? Mr. Ruberdon. No, sir. The Chairman. They are in favor of it, are they? Mr. Ruberdon. Yes, sir. j. i o ^ -c^ Senator Lane. How many are there altogether of the bac and J^ ox Indians ? Mr. Ruberdon. About 99. . • ^ -u o Senator Lane. Do you mean all that are m the entire tribe ( Mr. Ruberdon. Yes, sir; the whole tribe. i . ., i. Senator Lane. I thought you said it did not apply to those who had land, and I supposed there might be some others Senator Thompson. That was my understanding of it. I thought there were 200 of them. . -u ^i, o^.^^-p^^^ The Chairman. Are there only 99 of your tribe, the Sac and J^ox < Mr. Ruberdon. That is about all. The Chairman. I thought there were about 200 i Mr. Ruberdon. There are about 99. The Chairman. Where do they live now i 736 INDIAN APPKOPRIATION BILL. ^Ir. RuBERDON. Part of them live in Nebraska and part live in Kansas. The Chairman. What percentage of them? How many live in Nebraska ? Mr. RuBERDON. About one- third. The Chairman. That is, about 33 of them ? Mi\ E-UBERDON. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And the other one- third live in the State? Mr, RuBERDON. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What towns do they live in; are they all in one place ? Mr. RuBERDON. Yes, sir; all in one place. The Chairman. In what town in Kansas do they live ? Mr. RuBERDON. In Hiawatha, the county seat. The Chairman. In what town in Nebraska do they live ? Mr. RuBERDON. They are located around Falls City, Nebr. The .Chairman. How many miles pvpart are those two places? Mr. RuBERDON. About 20 miles. The Chairman. And the Indians in Nebraska and Kansas, do they hold friendly relations, or communicate with each other frequently? Mr. RuBERDON. Yes, sir. The Chairman, And does one division of the tribe know what the other is doing with respect to this legislation and other matters re- garding the property of the Indians ? Mr. RuBERDON. Yes, sir. Senator Townsend. You said a moment ago that there were 99 of the Sac and Fox Indians enrolled. Are there some there who are not enrolled ? Mr. RuBERDON. Just those children who were recently born. Senator Townsend. That is all ? Mr ..RuBERDON. That is all. Senator Townsend. When was this allotment made, do you re- member ? Mr. RuBERDON. No, sir; I do not. Senator Townsend. How many children have been born since that allotment was made ? Mr. RuBERDON. I do not know; I could not say. I do not know just how many have been born. Senator Townsend. You are very certain that there are no In- dians who claim to belong to the Sac and Fox Tribe who are not enrolled, except the children ? Mr. Ruberdon. Yes, sir. Senator Thompson. Did you know how many Indians received their proportionate share of this $100,000? Mr. Ruberdon. No; I do not. Senator Thompson. Do you know how many this $29,000 is to be divided up amongst? Mr. Ruberdon. I have no figures; I do not know exactly. Senator Lane. I understood you to say 99 ? Mr. Ruberdon. Altogether. Senator Thompson. They are landowners, as I understand it, who cUd receive money from this distribution ? Mr. Ruberdon. In the drainage district; yes, sir. INDIAN APPROPBIATION BILL. 737 Senator Thompson. And those who were not owners of land did not get any of the fund; is that it? MX, RuBERDON. Who Hve in the drainage district. Senator Thompson. Are you one of this number ? Mr. RuBERDON. In the drainage dustrict; yes, sir. Senator Thompson. Are you a land owner ? Mr. RuBERDON. Yes, sir. Senator Thompson. Then you have received your share, have you ? Mr. RxJBERDON. Yes, sir. Senator Lane. And you would not get any of this ? Mr. RuBERDON. No, sir. Senator Thompson. You will not have any interest in this fund ? Mr. RuBERDON, No, sir. Senator Thompson. Who was it who had you come here to look into the matter ? Mr. RuBERDON. The tribe; they sent two of us. Senator Thompson. Who was the other ? Mr. RxjBERDON. John Connelly. Senator Thompson. Is he here ? Mr. RuBERDON. No, sir; he retm-ned home. Senator Thompson. He hved at Everest ? Mr. RuBERDON. He lives right aroimd where I live, at Reserve. Senator Townsend. Did I imderstand you to say that you get nothing out of this ? Mr. Ruberdon. No, sir; I have alreadv received my share. Senator Townsend. And therefore you have no interest personally iii this matter at all ? Mr. Ruberdon. No, sir. I was sent here by the tribe. Senator Lane. Are those Indians fairly good farmers ? Mr. Ruberdon. They are all industrious. Senator Lane. Are they making a good hving? Mr. Ruberdon. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Well, Senators, what is your pleasure with regard to this matter ? Senator Thompson. I am going to be guided by what the depart- ment says with respect to the matter. They seem to want authority to use this money. The Chairman. Is there any objection to this item gomg into the bill? There being none, it is so ordered. SHOSHONE INDIANS, WIND RIVER RESERVATION, WTO. Senator Thompson. Mr. Chairman, I was appointed on a sub- committee, together with Senators La Follette and Lane, to consider Senate biU 5036, which is a bill authorizing the Shoshone Tribe of Indians, residing on Wind River Reservation, Wyo., to submit claims to the Court of Claims. The matter was very ably pre- sented by an attorney from Omaha, Mr. Tunison, I beheve his name is, and I think all of the committee agreed that this matter should be submitted to the Court of Claims. The only disagreement amongst the members of the subcommittee is as to the provision of the bill relating to attorneys' fees. I think we all agreed that we would leave that matter to the entire committee, at least that 39746— FT 3—14:- 738 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. is the way I understood Senators La Fo^lette and Lane. I think the matter is in such shape that the entire committee had better pass upon it. Senator Lane. What fee is provided in the bill ? The Chairman. I might say yesterday the committee decided that in no event should the fee be over 1 per cent. Senator Lane. I do not think that was determined upon. The Chairman. In a certain bill it was so determined. Senator Lane. Yes; but there was an intimation that if it went into that bill it ought to be the same in all other bills. Senator Thompson. This has the usual provision, as I understand, of bills of this character. It says : ^ Upon the final determination of such cause the Court of Claims shall decree such fees as the court shall find reasonable to be paid to the attorneys employed by the said Shoshone Tribe, and the same shall be paid out of any sum or sums found due to said Shoshone Tribe, or out of any sum or sums which may be placed to the credit of said Shoshone Tribe as a result of said cause: Provided, That in no case shall the fees decreed by said court be in excess of the amount stipulated in the approved contract nor amount to more than 10 per cent of the amount and value of the judgment covered, in said cause. Senator Lane. Did you hear that, Senator La Follette ? Not to be more than 10 per cent. Senator Owen gave notice yesterday that in- asmuch as we decided that the fees in some other cases pertaining to Oklahoma — thcv Creeks down in that country — should not amount to more than one-half of 1 per cent, or $15,000 for a couple of years of work, that he would want the same rule appUed to all other fees in this biU. Senator Thompson. I wiU say for the benefit of the committee that the case is really one for damages, an unliquidated amount. It would be hard to ascertain the exact amount that could be possibly recovered in advance. As I understood the attorney it may be small or it may be a large sum according to how they may be able to present it to the Court of Claims, either including or excluding certain amounts that they have charged the Shoshone Indians. Senator La Follette. I understood from the attorney yesterday that the recovery ought to be somewhere in the neighborhood of a million or million and a half dollars. Senator J'hompson. That is the claim that is in dispute, as I under- stand. Senator La Follette. There is not much dispute to it, as I under- stand it. The Department of the Interior thmks that this matter should go to the Court of Claims, and the facts, I think, are pretty well understood and pretty well agreed upon that the Arapahoes were quartered upon tne Shoshones on this reservation without any authority of law or without having obtained the consent of the Indians, and they were allowed part of the lands that belonged to the Shoshones by treaty, and have those allotments now. Senator Thompson. The amount of recovery would be more or less speculative, would it not, Senator ? Senator La Follette. The value of the land in that valley was stated to me as being approximately worth SIO or S12 an acre, and the amount involved and the number of acres are well understood. Senator Thompson. About 75,000 acres, I think. Senator La Follette, About 100,000, as I remember. INDIAN APPROPRIATION" BILL. 739 Mr. TuNisON. I might say there, Senator Senator La Follette. I will say that I am depending upon the statement made by the attorney himself. Mr. TuNisoN. The department letter shows an allotment to the Arapahoes of 75,328. I stated to Senator La Follette yesterday, as I said here, that it was about 100,000 acres, and I think this depart- ment letter is a little in error on that. I think the allotment rolls out there, which I have seen myself, show allotments of 98,000 acres. Now I will say that this letter which I have here was submitted by Mr. Hayden before the House committee in considering this point. This is a letter which he received from the Interior Department giving the data on the question. Assuming that these allotments are 100,000 acres to the Arapahoes, the amount to which the Sho- shones would be entitled depends entirely on when the court would appoint the time, or fix the tune when this conversion of land is to be taten. If it is taken at the price of Government land, which was $1.25 and acre, the Shoshones would be entitled to nothing. If it is fixed at about $10 an acre, the amount would be about $1,000,000. If it is fixed at $15, the amount would be $1,500,000. This biU provides, under an amendment that was put in by the House, that the courts shall deduct aU gratuities paid to these Indians, which amount, as shown by this letter, to $464,000. The irrigation system which has been constructed on that reservation, as shown by this letter, is $561,000, which is a reimbursable appropriation. So, as you gentlemen will see, the amount which the Snoshones wiU recover depends entirely on what the court allows them for the land. If the court allows them ten or fifteen dollars an acre, the amount of their claim will be a million or a milUon and a half doUars, subject to deduction of the cost of the ditch and these gratuities, as provided in the bill. Senator Thompson. Do you conceive that it will be all right to deduct $506,000, the cost of the irrigation plant, from that fund ? ^ Mr. TuNisoN. I have proceeded on that theory aU the way through, and that was the view that the House committee took of it — that it was a reimbursable appropriation. They have never had any money with which to reimburse the Government, and if their claim is allowed for the land that has been taken from them, I have no doubt that the Government would promptly proceed to reimburse itself out of any moneys they get. Senator Thompson. Under the terms of this bill it is expressly stated that they would be entitled to credit for the gratuities-r- amounting to how much ? Mr. TuNisoN. $464,000. The Chairman. The point at issue before the committee is what limitation, if any, you are going to put on the attorneys' fees. Are you submitting the report of the subcommittee ? Senator La Follette. We are favorable to the bill, and the only matter upon which we did not arrive at a conclusion are the terms of the biU fixing attorneys' fees. Senator To WNSEND. What does that bill provide? Senator Thompson. It is the usual provision, as I understand. 1 think all of these bills are about the same, Mr. Meritt. The Court of Claims should fix the fee according to approved contract, and m 740 INDIAK APPBOPKIATION BILL. no event shall it be more than 10 per cent of the amount recovered, or the value of the judgment. Mr. TuNisoN. I will say that before I drew this biU I got a form from the Indian Office, which they had approved, and these are the same words as appear in their approved form. We have no con- tract with the Shoshones in any sum whatever. We have made application to make a contract with them and the Indian Office has informed us that their policy is to permit no contracts until the jurisdictional act had passed Congress. Senator Thompson. How long have you been working on the case ? Mr. TuNisoN. It will be two years in October. Senator Thompson. How many attorneys or firms are interested! in it? Mr, TuNisoN. No one but our firm, the firm of Jeffries & Tunison, of Omaha, of which I am the junior member. We are the only people who have anything to do with it in any way, shape, or form, as far as I know. Senator Thompson. Have you any idea how much time you took and how much additional time it will require before you can get the matter determined ? Mr. Tunison. The act provides that the action shall be taken within a year. I would say that it would take at least a year to get the case in shape to file after the act is passed, and I think it would hurry us to get it in in that time. There will have to be a going over of accounts to see what share of the Shoshones' lease money from tribal lands have been divided up among the Arapahoes. There will have to be an appraisement, I take it, of each tract of land that has been allotted to the Arapahoes. Senator Townsend. I take it you will have to have some attor- neys, or the Indians will, to present this case to the court. Is that correct ? Mr. Tunison. Yes, sir. Senator Thompson. If no attorney took the case then it would not be prosecuted. The Government does not provide for prose- cuting these cases, does it? Senator La Follette. There is a recommendation in favor of this bill by the department — in favor of a reference to the Court of Claims, I mean. Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. The subcommittee reports favorably, ex(3ept that they leave the question open as to an;v limitation of fees, and the department favors the legislation. What is the pleasure of the committee ? Senator La Follette. I am not in favor of leaving these fees to the Court of Claims. I thmk the Court of Claims has been altogether too liberal in their allowances of fees to attorneys in these cases of the Indians. Some enormous, and, I think, unconscionable, fees have been allowed them. I would like to see reasonable, and even liberal fees allowed to attorneys in these cases, based upon the amount of work they do, but for my part I would rather leave it to the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs or the Secretary of the Interior, with a limi- tation in the gross amount as to what may be allowed in a given case. The Chairman. Mr. Commissioner, have you anything to suggest 1 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 741 Senator La Follette. I would like to hear a suggestion from Mr. Meritt. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, this question is one that is constantly- arising in the Indian Office and the department. We have attorneys who want to represent various Indians and Indian tribes. Senator La Follette has correctly stated that in the past very large fees have been awarded to attorneys in the Court of Claims cases. Only a few years ago a fee of $750,000 was allowed in an Indian claim 'by the Choctaw and Chickasaw citizenship court, and the Indian Office has been criticized very severely for that action. Senator Lane. To whom did you say it was allowed ? Mr. Meritt. I would not care to open up that subject, Senator, if you will pardon me. The Indian Office has also been criticized very severely because of the action of the Court of Claims in allowing large fees to attorneys, and we had nothing whatever to do with it. Since that time we have desired that there be incorporated in the jurisdictional acts submitting Indian claims to the Court of Claims, a proviso giving the Secretary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs some authority in limiting the fees that might be paid attorneys. Senator Thompson. Why was it not done in this case? !Mr. Meritt. Under this language the Secretary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs could control the maximum fee. The Chairman. Under that language? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; the language reads: Provided, That in no case shall the fees decreed by said court be in excess of the amount stipulated in the approved contract nor amount to more than 10 per cent of the amount and value of the judgment recovered in said cause. Under existmg law, sections 2103, 2104, 2105, and 2106, of the Revised Statutes, attorney's contracts with tribes are not valid with- out the approval of the Secretary of the Interior and the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs and the fee question would be controlled under the wording of this bill. Senator Thompson. The Court of Claims would not have anything to do with it then? Mr. Meritt. They would have something to do with it, but the department would have the final say as to the maximum fee that might be allowed. We would also have no objection to following out the suggestion of Senator La Follette that the maximum amount be named in the bill, for example, not to exceed The Chairman. Blank dollars ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; blank dollars. Senator La Follette. Let me ask you, Mr, Meritt, this question: This bill provides that there shall be some finding by the Court of Claims as to the amount of fees that should be allowed m this case, does it not, and is there not a proviso in it that gives them the oppor- tunity to express themselves m some way upon it ? , _ , . Mr Meritt. Yes. sir; the language reads: ''Upon the final deter- mination of said cause the Court of Claims shall decree such fees as the court shall find reasonable to be paid to the attorneys employed by said Shoshone Tribes, and the same shall be paid out of any sum or sums found due to said Shoshone Tribe/' etc. 742 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. Senator La Follette. And, further down, it contains^ this pro- vision^ which gives you some final word as to the amount that shall be allowed, but the trouble with that is that I should think you might find yourself embarrassed somewhat by the recommendation of the court, which has shown a very liberal, and it seems altogether too liberal, a disposition with regard to the payment of attorney'^ fees in these cases, and for my part I should prefer the provision allowing the Court of Claims to have a say about it be stricken out of the bill, leaving it entirely to the Secretary of the Interior, without any recommendation from the court or anybody else. The Secre- tary of the Interior will know what services are paid for in these| cases, or can easily find out, and what is true of this case is equally true of any case, with a limitation of some fixed amount above which the fee should not be enlarged. Now, here you have an illustration. I understand the attorney in this case — who is a very frank man, and I was favorably impressed with him — to say that his firm began work on this case a year ago last October. A good many of the members of this committee are lawyers and understand perfectly well that this firm has not been giving aU of its time to this case since that time. This gentleman who appears here, the junior member of the firm, is evidently a law- yer of ability. He has handled this case, I think, up to the present time well, but he is occupied, or his firm is occupied, with other busi- ness. If an allowance should be made in this case of a million dollars or a million and a half dollars, it affords an opportunity for the Court of Claims to make a recommendation^ and it would be foUowed by the Secretary of the Interior; and, as I say, if the Court of Claims has recommended a large fee, the Secretary of the Interior can be urged pretty strongly on that to make the allowance in accordance with the recommendation. They might allow a fee of S100,000 or $150,000. Now, I laiow enough about the law practice to know that that is an excessive fee for the amount of service that would be rendered in this case. Judge Allen here is employed at S5,000 a year — an able lawyer, with experience on the bench — and, as I understand, by the terms of his employment he gives all of his time at $5,000 a year to the inter- ests of the Creek Nation. I feel that it is dishonest business for this committee, which is serving in a measure as trustees for these Indians, to leave any open- ing whatever for any further excessive fees to be paid; and while I have respect for my profession, and would see a man reasonably and fairly paid, I think we ought to do this business somewhat upon the basis that we would transact it if it were our own. If the members of this committee had a case of this sort, and were making terms with a lawyer to conduct it for them, they would be inclined to make more liberal terrns because the fee was contingent, although I do not think that there is much contingency about this fee. There will be a re- covery and a good fee. They would put in a stop-gap in the proposi- tion and say there shall not be more than fifteen thousand or twenty thousand or twenty-five thousand dollars, gauging it somewhat by the length of time that the matter is likely to take. I would be very glad for my part to listen to any suggestions from the attorney as to the amount of work that has actually been de- voted to this case up to the present time and the amount of time, INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. 743 from his knowledge of the case, it wih take to conipleto it to final judgment. Mr. TuNisoN. I will tell the cojumittee the exact amount of time that has been put in. Two years ago the first of October I came to Washington and after securing the permission of the autiiorities of the Indian OfRce, I made an exhaustive examination of the records there to ascertain whether or not there htid been any cession by the Shoshones to the Ai-apahoes of any rights on this'' reservation. I had a couple of stenographers copy a great deal of matter which I presented to the committee in the form of a brief. I was here, as I remember, about a month at that time. I came down last January with n delegation of the Shoshones and Anipahoes and appeared^ before the House committee -- Senator Thompson. I^ast Januar; or January a > ear ago ? Mr. TuNisON. I beg pardon — a year ago last January. I first appeared before a subcommittee and tlien before the full committee. I was here, I believe, five weeks at that tune. I then came here the first part of March and appeared before the House committee, first a subcommittee and then the full committee, and the House com- mittee reported the bill out in the shape in which it was introduced in the Senate. I will say this about this claim, and in it I take no little pride. Senator Clapp introduced a bill in 1902 in the Senate to submit the claims of the Sho.shones to the Court of Claims. The department reported adversely on that bill. The bill was never reported out of this committee. He mtroduced the bill again in 1903 and it met the same fate. The bill was again introduced in 1906, and met the same fate — an adverse report from the department. I think you gentlemen will be interested m knowing how that came about. In 1877, when these Arapahoes were put on the Shoshone Reserva- tion, the agent, Earlman, who had been agent for the Shoshones, went up there and asked the consent of the Shoshones to put the Arapahoes on this reservation that winter, which consent he got for that winter. He wired back that he had held a council and made peace between the Shoshones and the Arapahoes. That fall when the Commissioner of Indian Affairs came to write up his annual report he put it in this statement: ^'In a formal council held by Agent Earlman with the Shoshones last fall their consent to the arrangement desired by the Arapahoes was obtained, and the Arapahoes had been removed thither," or words to that effect. When these tliree former bills were introduced in the Senate a Senate committee wrote to the department for a report on the bills; the department in a written report turned back to that printed page in the report of tiie Commissioner of Indian Affairs for 1877, and said, ''Why, here it says that the Shoshones con- sented to this in formal council. That settles it.'' Now I, by my own efforts in presenting this matter to the department, showed them that the statement by that commissioner was simply a conclusion based on no evidence whatever, and showed them a letter from Agent Earl- man himseK wherein he called attention to these unfounded state- ments in the annual report of the commissioner, which I think was the deciding thing which prevailed upon the department to report fav- orably on this legislation. 744 INmAW APPROPRIATION BILL. I have stated the time I have put in on this matter. As to the time it will take to try the case, you gentlemen who are lawyers can say as much about it as I can tell you. I can not say how long it will take. If we are awarded the contract for this tribe I expect to try to get every cent that is due them. As I said a few minutes ago, I think it will take the greater part of a year to get the matter in shape to try. How long it will take to try it I do not know. I am not familiar with the practice in the Court of Claims. Senator Thompson. You have to advance your expenses in matters of this kind, do you not ? Mr. TuNisoN. I will say on that matter that we have spent over a thousand dollars already, and my time of which I have told you here, and have received not a cent from any source. The Shoshones have no money. We expect to take it on a straight contingent basis, and in view of the variable amounts of these recoveries, in view of the fact that we have advanced our own expenses, and I suppose it would take several thousand dollars to take testimony and print it in the Court of Claims — I really feel that under all the circumstances the language which the department has approved in this bill is as fair as anyone could ask for. The Chairman. Would it interrupt you if I asked you a question? Mr. TuNisoN. No, sir; I am through. The Chairman. You spent some nine weeks in Washington on behalf of your firm in this case ? Mr. TuNisoN, Yes, sir. Senator La Follette. Added to the time he has spent here this year. The Chairman. Yes; in addition to the tim.e from March 1 ? Mr. TuNisoN. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I hope you won't think this too personal, but have you had any other matters pending in Washington ? Mr. TuNisoN. Not any whatever. The Chairman. It has been solely on this matter? Mr. Tunison. Yes, sir. Senator Thompson. What do you estimate as a reasonable amount of recoveiy ? Mr. Tunison. Senator, I have spoken just as frankly as I can on that subject. I do not know. It will depend on what the court allows the Shoshones for this land. Senator Thompson. You concede that they are entitled to a credit of nearly $1,000,000 — or to an ofiPset of nearly $1,000,000 against any claims ? Mr. Tunison. Yes, sir; I do not see how they can get away from it under the language of this bill. Senator Thompson. And if they found the land was only worth $1,000,000 you would not recover anything? Mr. Tunison. Yes, sir; that is it. Senator Lane. As a matter of fact, are not the lands worth a good deal more than you have stated? Are they not worth $30 or $40 an acre ? Mr. Tunison. I think not. Senator Lane. Or $25 or $30 ? Mr. Tunison. If they would take the land now under the ditch down at the lower end and give the Shoshones the market value of INDIAN APPKOPKIATION BILL. 745 that land to-day, it would run up to about $27.50. I think last year they sold a few tracts of heirship land out there, and as I re- member it the highest was about $27.50, but I have not dared to hope that the court would allow them the value of that land to-day. Senator Lane. What will they base it on — on what year will they base the value ? Mr. TuNisoN. I do not know, I say that frankly. Senator Lane. They will about have to base it on its market value at the time the case was submitted for trial. Mr. TuNisON. Before the House committee one member proposed that the price of this land that was taken be restricted to the price of pubhc land, $1.25 an acre. The Chairman. That is all conjecture as to what may happen. Mr. TuNisoN. Yes, sir. The Chairman. No man can tell that. Mr. TuNisoN. No, sir. Senator Thompson. As a matter of fact, would it not be the value of the land at the time it was appropriated from a local standpoint ? Mr. TuNisoN. If they took it at the value of the land at the time it was appropriated and had not allowed interest on it, the Shoshones would not get a cent. They would get a judgment against them. The Chairman. It is almost idle to discuss that. Mr. Tunison, Yes, sir; it really is almost idle. The Chairman. Are there any further suggestions to be made '^ Senator Lane. Senator Owen filed one yesterday, you will re- member. Senator Townsend. I have this feeling about it ; I agree with Senator La FoUette that the Indians have been robbed a great many times through their attorneys, but at the same time, I recognize that many of those Indian claims would never have been brought to Ught, and the Indians never would have had any show anywhere on earth, if it had not been for some of those attorneys. I would not want to deny the Indians the opportunity to get good counsel, good attorneys to prosecute their claims, which I know has been heretofore denied them. I know they have rights which ought to be looked after. We all know, as attorneys, that there are a great many accidents which arise in the course of a trial of a case which can not be antici- pated. You can not tell what may happen, whether there will be a mistrial and you will have to apply for a new trial, or something else arise that will involve a great deal of expense. Now, I want, as Senator La FoUette suggests, to provide for a Hberal fee, and I want to know that they have earned their money. If it can be done I am inclined to think it would be well to leave the matter with the guard- ian of the Indians, assuming that he is an honest man and is looking out for the interest of the Indian, his ward, to ^ the fee, inasmuch as he makes the contract, or approves the contract. So if I could have my way about it I would leave this fee out of consideration. You might make a hmit. Ten per cent would not be too much in some cases, while it would be infinitely too much in other cases. Yet if we want to fix a Hmit I have no objection to that, but I think I would be prepared to leave it to the Secretary of the Interior or the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. - , , - , ' - The Chairman. You mean to strike out some of the language ot the present bill ? 746 INDIAN APPEOPEIATION BILL. Senator Townsend. I do not think we can safely leave it to the court, because it is a busy court. It is crowding those things through, and the attorneys make their representations, and an amount has been allowed, as' we know, which has been in many cases unjust. The Chairman. It is always an amount that may not be exceeded; that has been my experience. Senator Lane. Yesterday there came in a claim of the Creeks amounting to some $3,000,000, and there was some such provision as this or perhaps there was no provision made as to fee; some question was made about it the day before by a newspaper reporter, that it was a matter that they were watching out for pretty sharply. I called attention to it and we finally — a small membership being pres^ ent — worked that down to one-half of 1 per cent, and Senator Owen immediately notified us that if that was going to be the case with the Creeks, he wanted it to apply to all these other fees, and asked particularly what fee had been stated in here. I did not know at that time whether it had been decided on or not; I do not think it had. At any rate it was his opinion that all should fare alike, which is fair play, you must allow. I think perhaps Senator Owen would like to be heard on this proposition. The Chairman. May I make an observation here ? After we had concluded our discussion as to the fee the attorney for the tribe arose and stated that he did not intend to reflect upon the contending attorneys, but that so far as attorneys were concerned he did not need any legal assistance* that with his pay or his salary of $5,000 per annum, he was amply compensated and would, without further fee, take care of the matter and prosecute it in the courts, he said he did not wish any assistance. That I think helped to move the committee to reduce it to one-half of 1 per cent of what might be recovered. You will recall tliat the attorney arose and said he did not wish any assistance; that he did not need it. You remember that? Senator Lane. Yes; I think I do. Senator Thompson. Was the amount of recovery more definitely ascertained ? The Chairman. The recovery in the other case was certain. Senator Thompson. That, of course, makes a difference. Senator La Follette. I would like to ask the Assistant Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs, who has some knowledge of this case, what he thinks — if he wiU state — would be a reasonable limitation to fix in this case as a lump sum ? Mr. Meritt. I believe if this bill were amended by adding after the word '^ cause," on line 1, page 4, the words '4n no event to exceed $15,000," that ample compensation would be paid the attorney who handles this case before the Court of Claims. I might say further that the Indian Office will ultimately be required to do a considerable amount of work in connection with this claim. We are anxious that these Indians who have claims against the Government shaU have an opportunity to go into the Court of Claims. That has been my belief for several years, and since I have been connected with legis- lation in the Indian Office we have been submitting favorable reports on aU jurisdictional acts submitting claims to the Court of Claims where the Indians have had the semblance of a claim against the Government, and I believe with Senator La Follette, that if there were a reasonable limitation in these bills more tribes would get an INDIAN APPROPKIATIOlT BILL. 747 opportunity to go to the Court of Claims to get their claims adjudi- cated. There has been so much dissatisfaction and so much feeUng aroused on this question of attorneys' fees connected with Indian claims that there seems to be an impression in the committees of Congress and in the department, as well as among the public, that the Indians get but little and that the attorneys get the ton's share. If a reasonable limitation were allowed in these bills, I believe more Indians would get an opportunity to go to the Court of Claims, Senator Townsend. Would this claim of the Shoshones have ever been brought to light if this attorney or some other man had not taken hold of it and brought it into courts as it is being brought in here? Mr. Meritt. This claim had been under consideration for some time prior to the connection of this attorney with it. Senator Lane. The Shoshones have been complaining about this ever since it happened. Senator Townsend. But as I understand it they have had their claim brought into Congress, and it has been discounted and they could not get a pleasant look in reference to the matter until some matters were dug out by this attorney, as I understand him. Mr. Meritt. Under the new policy of the department we are anxious that the Indians who have claims against the Government shall be permitted to go to the Court of Claims and have those claims adjudicated under properly worded jurisdictional acts. These juris- dictional acts can be so worded that they will either be unjust to the Government or unjust to the Indians, and we think we have worked out a jurisdictional bill that will be just both to the Government and to the Indians. Senator Townsend. It would seem to me that you first have to pass on these contracts with these attorneys for the Indians. It would seem to me, as I have said, that as guardian of the Indians, tne department should look to it and see that those Indians were not being overreached by attorneys. On the other hand, since I have been connected with Indian affairs I have concluded that there are many rights of the Indians which have been buried beyond resur- rection until some sort of Gabriel attorney has come along and sounded the horn and brought them to light. Now, I do not want to prevent that, if 1 can help it. I want the Indian to have his rights protected, and I do not want liim to be robbed, either, by un- conscionable attorneys. STATEMEI^T OF CHARLES H. MEERILAT, ATTORNEY, WASH- INGTON, D. C. Mr. Merrilat. 'As an attorney who has been engaged in the Indian practice and who is retiring as fast as he can close up his matters from any participation in Indian affairs, I would like, if I may, to say just a few words. The Chairman. Is it with respect to this bill? Mr. Merrilat. It i.; upon the general subject of Indian attorney- ship fees and contracts. I think what I have to say has pertinency and materiality to this matter. . , . , i i i About 1905 I formed a partnership which contemplated the prac- tice, in part, of Indian attorneyship law. I decHned to withdraw 748 IliTDIAlJT APPROPBIATION BILL. from my general practice, working both day. and night because I;did not know what I was getting into. Among the cases we took up was one of some Indians that Senator La Follette will recognize — ^we are widely apart on the question of fees — but it was the claim of the Wisconsin Pottowattomies. Their claim had been denied for 40 years, the Indian Office always saying that the Indians had no rights; that they had forfeited them. In 1902 a contract- was submitted to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, who said he thought the Indian had no claim, but 15 per cent instead of 20 per cent was a proper fee. It was made, and two years ago, for the first time, with three sets of attorneys working, we suc- ceeded in getting legislation recognizing that claim, the Indian Office four years before having for the first time recanted from its position, or adverse reports upon the biU, finding that its previous reports that the Indians had forfeited their claim was not good. That was one instance. I had another instance which was in con- nection with the Creek equaUzation claim that is here. I was em- gloyed in connection with another attorney in the matter, and what appened ? In looking into it I delved into it and came to the con- clusion that the Creek equaHzation claim was a good claim and I made that contention for the first time before the House Committee on Indian Affairs in the year 1908. I was scoffed at by the Indian Office when I arose, and afterwards by the Interior Department, and finally, pressing the matter along, got it to where apparently it was to go to the Court of Claims. Again, take another instance. In 1907 the Secretary of the Interior, with one stroke of his pen, on March 1, 1907, struck a host of Indians off the rolls and declared that they were not Indians. I brought a mandamus suit to compel their restoration to the rolls. It was fought up to the Supreme Court of the Uhited States, and I succeeded in getting the first mandamus or injunction against the Secretary of the Interior in 12 years. The moment that I got it they were declared to be Indians, and I could not get any fee, and in many instances I have not to-day, for those people that I got upon the rolls, received one single dollar. I fought the Belle Frost mandamus case, involving a town site, through the action of the Secretary of the Interior and the commis- sioner denying Belle Frost the right to allotment of an adjoining town site. I fought that through the Supreme Court, winning all along. How much pay have I received? Two hundred dollars, which I got at the beginning, and not one cent more, and we never have been able to get it. Now, what is the other side of that picture? When I found this situation, that I was constantly going to haggle over a question of my fees and have nobody before whom I could present it — for I insisted I ought not to present it to anyone except one was a trained lawyer — I then decided to sever my partnership and did sever my partnership with Mr. Kappler, simply providing for a continuation of all other business. WTiat is the consequence ? T am now in three will cases — one of them which we are at present trying in the courts of the District involving three hundred and eighty thousand and odd dollars. My contingent fee contract — I will be very glad to give it to all the Senators here, but I do not want to give it in this public room, bat everyone of you gentlemen can have it. INDIAN APPROPKIATION BILL. 749 I have been employed in another will case in which the amount involved is from two and one-half to three million dollars — the Stil- son Hutchins will case — and I have been taken in in another will case of $126,000. Just one week ago to-day in a syndicate railroad case, the judge told me he would sign a decree in our behalf for something over $30,000 for the woman, and I have two or three more of those in the usual average run of business. Now, I certainly think that my renunciation of any claim to Indian contracts has been thus far a profitable one. As far as it concerns any tribunal at all, Mr. Chairman, I would have been willing, and am willing, to lay any matter of mine before any committee of Congress or subcom- mittee of Congress, or the Assistant Attorney General of the Interior Department, or any others who are attorneys, who will give me a hearing, and after the}'" have given me a hearing will announce what I am entitled to. But to say that a man to go ahead and he can have neither one of two things — ^he can neither have the fee fixed in advance, looking at the desperateness or reasonableness or otherwise of the case, that he can not have a contingent fee named which he will get if he wins, and he can not have the matter left open and have it decided whoUy upon a quantum meruit, wiU in my judgment result in those people who will give the most efficient service to the Indians not getting their authority to emplo}^ them. You say that case is certain. I can remember a case that passed through the courts referring the Van an Adair case to the Court of Claims. The attorney in that case — and Mr. Meritt knows it — in July filed his petition to get $185,000 out of the Osage Indians; and he asked me if I would not agree to close up the case by Thanksgiving — and regarded the fee as being in his pocket. I told Mr. Hemphill, "Let us see if that is true. I will agree to nothing until I file my answer/' I filed the answer, according to the normal practice in the Court of Claims, of 60 printed pages. I spent a month down in the Indian Office digging out old files and came away every day with the necessity of talcmg a bath to get the grime of the old papers off my hands. The result was that, in January, I was pleading with him to close the case. Under the rules of the Court of Claims he could not get it closed for a year; and I fought that claim of $180,000 entirely. We took it upon a basis of $5,000 if we won. Now, Mr. Chairman, I am saying this in the interest of Mr. Tunison. I realize that you have adopted a certain policy. That is for you, of course, and I have my right to retire^ entirely. I would not have been here to-day, except Mr. •Kappler canie to me yesterday and asked me to come up here. That is the whole situation. It refers to every case I have. I have been perfectly ready to submit it to anybody who will agree, as a court will, to sit down and let me present the services that have been rendered and the conditions under which they had been rendered, and then have whatever seems to be equitable and just. I am not saying this with reference to myseK, because, as I say, I am largely withdrawing and am only in this matter to close out the exist- ing things with regard to which I am engaged under authority. Senator La Follette. Now, Mr. Chairman, I move that the com- mittee adopt the amendment suggested by Mr. Meritt, the Assistant Indian Commissioner, to this bill. in, . i The Chairman. The amendment is that in no case shall the tee be over $15,000. Is there objection to that ? There being no objection, 750 INDIAN APPBOPKIATION BILL. it is adopted. I wigh the commissioner would take that language and prepare a bill which will be reported as a substantive biQ. Senator La Follette. No; it is an independent bill. Senator Thompson will report the bill. Senator Townsend. Let me ask you this question, Mr. Tunison: Are you going to continue in this case ? Mr. Tunison. I will have to consult with my partner, but I doubt it very much. I do not think that in view of what I have done and what I expect to do that that is a proper fee. I wiU say further that we have had no experience in tliis class of business. If that fee, in the judgment of the committee, appears ample — and the probability is that you base your action on some experience that you will be able to get competent peaple, or that these Indians will be able to get competent people, to handle this claim for that fee — I do not beheve it can be done by competent people in our part of the country, considering all the elements of the case that we have encoun- tered heretofore. Senator La Follette. The Creek Indians have a pretty competent attorney here who receives $5,000 a year. Senator Lane. Is it not in the power of Congress to submit these cases to the Court of Claims for fuiding of facts on their own initiative and report on the same, which would result in the same thing without any cost to the Indian whatever ? Senator Townsend. But they would not get the case presented. Senator Lane. Can we not have one of the Assistant Attorneys General to present it ? Senator Townsend. A good many of these cases are against the Government itself. The Chairman. If there is no objection the biU will be reported favorably by Senator Thompson, with the amendment proposed by Senator La Follette. Now we will recur to the appropriation bill. CREEK INDIANS — COUNCIL MEETING. Mr. Allen. I have an item here that I would Hke to have go into the appropriation bill respecting the Creek people. The Chairman. What page do you wish to insert it on ? Mr. Allen. I am not sure just where it should be inserted. I will read it: That the Commissioner of Indian Affairs is hereby authorized to permit the principal chief of the Creek Nation to hold a special session of the aational council of said nation, and for such purpose there is hereby appropriated, out of any funds in the Treasury of the United States to the credit of the Creek Nation, the sum of $10,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, to paj^ the mileage and per diem of members and other incidental expenses of such council meeting upon approval of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs: Provided, That the Commissioner of Indian Affairs shall fix the time for calling said session of the council, the length of time such council may remain in session, and the amount that shall be allowed members attending. I want to say in justification of this item that for a year or more the Creeks have not been satisfied with the conditions existing in the nation and with the way their affairs have been handled in Washington. They have not been able to meet. They now have valuable property. They have $3,380,000 in the Treasury of the United States, and there is no authority for calling the council to- gether to advise them as to how their affairs are bemg handled, and INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. * 751 it has resulted in mass meetings being called all over that nation in the eight comities comprising the Creek Nation, and resolutions strongly condemning the principal chief and other officers of the tribe have been passed by those mass meetings because of his failure to call a meeting of the council. They are ignorant people, a majority of them are. They can not understand why he is not vested with authority or with power to call these meetings. I want simply to give the Commissioner of Indian Affairs authority to permit him to call a session of the council. Then it will be left at his discretion whether a council meeting is necessary or not. The Chairman. You have*submitted this amendment to the com- missioner, have you ? Mr. Allen. I talked it over with him. The Chairman. I wish you would renew it to-morrow. Mr. Allen. I told him I would offer it myself as an item. The Chairman. There has been a special request by Senator Owen that no Oklahoma matters be taken up in his absence. You may renew this to-morrow. Have you some matters that you desire to submit, Mr. Commissioner ? RELIEF OF the CHETTIMANCHI BAND OF INDIANS, LOUISIANA. Mr. Meritt. We have three or four items that we would like to have incorporated in the bill before the hearings are finally closed. I have one item now that I would like to call to the attention of the cominittee. It is an amendment introduced by Senator Ransdell, of Louisiana, for the relief of the Chettimanchi Band or Tribe of Indians of Louisiana as follows : a That $1,500, or as much thereof as may be necessary, is hereby appropriated, to be extended for the relief and for clearing the title to the lands owned or possessed by the Chettimanchi Band of Indians of Louisiana, and for the purchase of such lands as may be necessary to put them on a self-supporting basis: Provided, That the Secretary of the Interior may, in his discretion, require that the legal title to all property purchased, or the title to which is to be cleared, with the funds hereby appropriated shall be in the name of the United States, for the use and benefit of the Indians. There are 300 Indians who are members of this tribe and they own a small trsct of land in Louisiana. It seems that certain members of this tribe have clouded the title to this land and there is a judg- ment against it. A lady named Miss Sara Avery Mcllhenny, the sister of the civil service commissioner, has advanced $1,200 to pre- vent the loss of this property belonging to those Indians. We would like to get this appropriation on the Indian appropriation bill so that it could protect the property of these Louisiana Indians who are practically self-supporting and who have not coij^e to the Government asking for any appropriation heretofore. It seems to be a worthy case, and is saving the home of those Indians in Louisiana. Senator Lane. Was this presented to the House ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; it was not presented to the House because this matter has come here since we had the Indian bill before the House. Senator La Follette. I move the adoption of that amendment. Senator Townsend. You have investigated it, have you, Mr. Com- missioner ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; and it seems to be a very worthy case. 752 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. The amendment was agreed to, to be inserted under '^General Items," page 20, after line 17. Senator La Follette. I move that the committee do now adjourn until Monday next at 2 o'clock p. m. (The motion was agreed to and the committee adjourned until Monday, April 20, 1914, at 2 o'clock p. m.) SATURDAY, APRIL 18, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock p. mr, pursuant to adjournment. Present: Senators Ashurst (chairman). Lane, Thompson, Owen, Clapp, La Follette, and Townsend. The Chairman. The committee will come to order. PAYMENT TO M. L. MOTT. The Chairman. The following item has been submitted to the committee, which I will read : ITEM. That the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to pay, out of any money in the Treasury of the United States belonging to the Creek Nation, to M. L. Mott the sum of $472.22 for services rendered the Creek Nation from January 15 to Feb- ruary 18, 1914, inclusive, and $210.20 as reimbursement for actual expenses incurred in connection therewith. MEMORANDUM. After the letter of February 13, 1914, from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to the Commissioner of the Five Tribes, ieiuthorizing this payinent, was written, the pay- ment was suspended because it was feared that a technical construction of the law might not permit of it being paid out of that fund. The expenses provided for in the item include the following: Railroad and Pullman fare from Washington to Muskogee, Okla $40. 20 34 days' subsistence, at $5 per day 170. 00 Total 210. 20 Department op the Interior, Office of Indian Affairs, Washington, February IS, 1914- The Commissioner to the Five Civilized Tribes. Sir: The contract of Mr. M. L. Mott as national attorney for the Creek Nation expired on January 14, 1914. The duties of that office will be assumed February 18, 1914, by Hon. R. C. Allen, of Muskogee, Okla. While Mr. Mott's regular employment terminated as stated, his presence has since been required in Wasmngton at the instance of the principal chief of the tribe and on invitation of the Secretary of the Interior. The principal chief therefore considera that Mr. Mott is entitled To compensation, at the rate of $5,000 per annum, together with a proper allowance for actual and necessary expenses, for the period from January 14, 1914, to February 18, 1914, inclusive. I concur in this view. The principal chief will draw a warrant in favor of Mr. Mott for the proper amount from the fund available for contingent expenses of the principal chief's office. You are authorized to approve tnis warrant and to refer it to the superintendent of Union Agency for settlement. Respectfully, Cato Sells, Commissioner. Since the writing of that letter some fear has arisen as to whether or not a technical construction of the law might prevent this being paid out of that fund, and they wish authority to do so. INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. 753 Senator Lane. In other words, they wish us to legislate the authority to pay the money ? The Chairman. Exactly. The item was agreed lo, KICKAPOO INDIANS. (On motion of Senator Clapp it was agreed that this item would be considered by the committee Wednesday morning, April 22, at 10 o'clock a. m.) BAD RIVER RESERVATION, WIS. (Upon motion of Senator Owen, it was agreed that this item would be considered by the committee on Monday, April 20, at 2 o'clock p. m.) The Chairman. On page 11 of the committee print, the committee inserted the following amendment after the industrial item: Provided further, That the unexpended balances of this appropriation for the fiscal year 1913 are hereby made available for expenditure by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs in providing quarters for farmers and for such other industrial purposes as he may deem necessary: And provided further, That no money appropriated herein shall be expended on and after January 1, 1915, for the employment of any farmer or expert farmer whose salary shall be in excess of $60 per month, unless he shall first have procured and filed with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs a certificate of com- petency setting forth his ability to instruct others in the art of agriculture or stock raising, as the case may be, such certificate to be certified and issued to him by the president of the State agricultural college or university of the State in which his services are to be rendered, or by the president of the State agpcultural college or university of an adjoining State, and appointments to said positions may be made without reference to the civil service laws, under such rules, regulations, and con- ditions as the Commissioner of Indian Affairs may prescribe. The proposed amendment is as follows : Provided further, That the unexpended balances of this appropriation for the fiscal year 1913 are hereby made available for expenditure by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs in providing' quarters for farmers and for such other industrial pxirposes as he may deem necessary: And provided further, That no money appropriated herein shall be expended on and after January 1, 1915, for the employment of any farmer or expert farmer whose salary shall be in excess of $50 per month, unless he shall first have pro- cured and filed with the Commissioner of Indian Affairs a certificate of competency certifying that he is a farmer of actual experience and qualified to instruct others in the art of practical agriculture, such certificate to be certified and issued to him by the president of the State agricultural college or university of the State in which his services are to be rendered, or by the president of the State agricultural college or university of an adjoining State. Mr. Meritt. That amendment apphes to farmers only. The Chairman. Is the proposed amendment understood ? Senator. La Follette. I do not remember that that last provi- vision was a part of it when it was offered before. The Chairman. Yes. , v i i Senator La Follette. Could you not get these peoipie who had these certificates certified to you under the civil service ? ^Jir IVIeritt Y^es sir. Senator La Follette. I am going to suggest this further change— "and appointments to said positions will be made without refer- ence'^ Senator Owen. What positions are those ^ 39746— PT 3—14 4 754 INDIAN APPROPRIATION BILL. The Chairman. F^rraers. Senator La Follette. The thing we sta'rted out to secure, Sena- tor Owen, was the appointment of farmers wto had had some special training, so that we would get Senator Owen. Men really quahfied to teach, you mean ? Senator La Follette. Yes, so that; we would get a better quali- fied lot of farmers. Senator Owen. Did not the provision require theiri to be certi- fied by an agricultural college ? . . ; Senator La Follette. Yes, that they must have a certification by the agricultural college or by the president of the university of the State. Senator Owen. You are also suggesting that they should have an eian^nation by the civil-service board in some way ? Senator La Follette. Yes, in order to prevent their being made just upon a pohtical basis. Senator Clapp. That is agreeable to the office, I understand ? Senator La Follette. As I understand Mr. Meritt that is agree- able to the office, that they shall be certified by the Civil Service Commission . Senator Owen. So that they will have to be ^examined at both places? Senator La Follette. Yes; so they would have to present ikeir certificates to come up through the civil service. I think a Httle care ought to be exercised on it. Senator Ov/en. I see no objection to that. Senator Clapp. Mr. Meritt, I want to make this suggestion, that in the place of the w'-ord's ''adjoining States," you had better insei^t "or the State from which such person is appointed." Otherwise^ you might find a hmitation in making transfers. Let him be certi- fied by the State where employed or the State from which he is appointed. Senator La Follette. The reason given for taking him from the adjoining State or from the State in which the reservation is lo6at6d is to secure the services of people who have some knowledge of the sort of agriculture that is apphcable to that section. Senator Clapp. That is true. Senator Owen. It is quite important. Senator La Follette. It is quite important. You take it in a dry-farming section, in their agricultural colleges they train their students with reference to dry farming, and to needs of the particular locality. We turn out very good men from the agricultural depart- ment of the University of Wisconsin, but I doubt very much if they would be trained especially so as to fit them for service, say, on some reservation in Montana. Senator Clapp. That is true, but you might have a man who was peculiarly adapted to a place, and yet, not being certified by the adjoining State, he could not be put into the field where you would want to put him. Senator La Follette. Mr. Meritt, I suggest you take that amend- ment and make it serviceable for the situation. The Chairman. Yes. Then we will have it ready to-morrow. Mr. Meritt. We will do that. INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. 755 9UAP4W AGENCY, OKLA. The Chairman. There is an amendment submitted by Se^iator (jrore, as loUows : The Secretary of the Interior is authorized to remove the restrictions from Indian aUottees under the jurisdicti&n of the Quapaw Agency, in Oklahoma, whenever neces- sary to enable the trustees of any school district to acquire a site for a school building, not to exceed five acres in extent; and also to enable the board of county commis- sioners to acquire rights of way for public buildings. There is a report on that signed by the Secretary of the Interior, which reads as follows : ' Department of the Interior, Washington, April 11, 1914. My Dear Senator: I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your letter dated March 25, 1914, inclosing a copy of an amendment intended to be proposed by Mr. Gore to bill (H. R. 12579) making appropriations for the current and contingent expenses of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, for fulfilling treaty stipulations with various Indian tribes, and for other purposes, for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1915; and which amendment reads: "The Secretary of the Interior is authorized to remove the restrictions from Indian allottees under the jurisdiction of the Quapaw Agency, in Oklahoma, whenever necessary to enable the trustees of any school district to acquire a site for a school building, not to exceed 5 acres in extent; and also to enable the board of county commissioners to acquire rights of way for public highways." There is no existing law authorizing the removal of restrictions from lands of aUottees under the Quapaw Agency except upon application of the allottee, and this applies only to adults (the Modoc Tribe being excluded altogether). There is also no authority of law for the sale of inherited land except upon the application of the heirs. Furthermore, the allottees have to retain 40 acres, designated a home- stead, from which restrictions as to alienation can not be removed even upon appli- cation, although the allottee, if a competent adult, holding his land under a deed with restrictions as to alienation, may apply for and receive a certificate of com- petency covering all of his allotment. It is apparent that the purpose of the proposed amendment is to authorize this department, in its discretion, to remove restrictions from any restricted Indian lands under the jurisdiction of the Quapaw Agency, when needed for school-site purposes. Some of the tribes under this agency hold allotments under trust patents; others under a deed with restrictions as to alienation, or what is known as a restricted fee patent. The department, under the act of March 3, 1909 (35 Stat. L., 751), has been approving orders removing the restrictions from the surplus lands of all adult allottees under this agency (Modocs excepted), whether the lands were held under restricted fee or trust patent. Recently, however, it has been brought to the attention of the department that loan companies and other commercial organizations refuse to recognize such orders as a release of the trust held by the United States. While the amendment proposed would give this department the authority desired, yet I believe the inclosed draft, if accepted and enacted into law, would serv^e the purpose better and leave no doubt as to the extent of the authority of the Secretary. Concerning the provision for public highways, I would invite your attention to the act of March 3, 1901 (31 Stat. L., 1084), which authorizes the Secretary to grant per- mission for highways to be opened or established across restricted Indian lands. This act is applicable to the restricted Indian lands within the jurisdiction of the Quapaw Agency. In view thereof, there seems to be no present necessity for special legisla- tion for this particular purpose. With the amendment wooded as in the attached draft, I have the honor to recom- mend favorable action thereon. Very truly, yours, Franklin K. Lane. Hon. Henry F. Ashurst, Chairman Committee on Indian Affairs, United States Senate. Senator Owen. Why would it not be well to allow that plan pro- posed for that agency to apply anywhere that it was desired to estab- 756 INDIAN APPROPEIATION BILL. lish. sites? Is there any objection to that that you can think of, Mr. Commissioner ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Owen. It might be well to have some uniform rule apply- ing everywhere throughout the country than just a rule for the Qua- paw Agency, having a slightly different^rule for some other agency, Mr. Meritt. Because of the complicated laws that are connected with the lands under that agency the loan companies have refused to recognize the legality of the removal of the restrictions, and we are not having that difficulty at other agencies. We thought this specific legislation here would cure the local conditions. Senator Owen. Have you considered it in reference to the various ' other agencies, as to whether or not you have the general right every- where else? Mr. Meritt. I think we have the general right. Senator Townsend. You have had no trouble in the other reser- vations ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Senator Townsend. Are you sure this only applies to the school sites ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; it is limited to school sites. Senator Townsend. How many school sites are you after out there on this reservation? Mr. Meritt. I presume not exceeding 10 school sites altogether. Senator La Follette. What determines the number of school sites ? Mr. Meritt. The application of the local authorities. Wherever they want a school site we are always glad to cooperate with them. Senator Owen. The number of children in that immediate neigh- borhood determines it? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. Senator La Follette. Could this provision be abused by getting the restrictions removed for m_ore lands than were needed for school- site purposes, and in that way dispossess the Indians, for commercial purposes ? Mr. Meritt. No, sir; we would only have authority to remove the restrictions under this item for school purposes. Senator La Follette. I know; but supposing after the restriction is removed for school purposes the school is abandoned, what then? Mr. Meritt. I doubt if they would have authority to sell it for commercial purposes under that Is w. Senator La Follette. Why would it not be well to have this pro- vision provide, then, if it is not used for school purposes at any time, it shall revert to the allottee to whom it belonged, and the restriction shall again apply ? Mr. Meritt. We would have no objection to that amendment, Senator. Senator La Follette. Would you have any objection to that, Senator Owen ? Senator Owen. No; I have no objection. Senator Clapp. There can not be any objection to that. The Chairman. Will you kindly take it up, Mr. Meritt, and insert the amendment as suggested by Senator La Follette ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The probability is there would be no abandonment because the population would be gradually increasing. INDIAN APPEOPRIATION BILL. 757 Senator Townsend. Would that mean if you sold the land of a minor or the allottee, and paid him the money, then you would again give him back the land that was not used ? Mr. Meritt. That is the suggestion contained in the Senator's amendment. Senator Townsend. The way this strikes me, although I have no doubt of the object that you have in mind, is that we are backing up to the proposition instead of leading directly up to it. It seems to me the purpose should have been stated first, '^for the purpose of acquiring a site for a school building on property belonging to an Indian, a minor, or restricted Indian, the Secretary of the Interior shall have authority to sell it." Perhaps it gets at the same thing, but you have to stop and think over it. Senator Lane. I think it is complicated and hard to understand. Senator Townsend. The object, as I understand it, is to acquire lands for school buildings ? Senator Lane. Why not say so ? Senator Townsend. Then when you determine that it is necessary, you want that authority to sell not to exceed 5 acres of land, to place the schools upon ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You will revamp that amendment ? Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir. (Thereupon, at 3 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until Monday, April 20, 1914, at 2 o'clock p. m.) APRIL 20, 1914. The committee met at 2 o'clock p. m. Present: Senators Clapp (acting chairman). Lane, and La FoUette. The Acting Chairman. Senator Owen telephoned me to-day saying that he would like very much to be present when certain Oklahoma matters were taken up. He said he could be here to-morrow, and I told him I would make that announcement to the committee. I also telephoned him after talking with Mr. Meritt, that the matter would come up to-day, and unless he could be present, he would lose an opportunity of being present. Senator La Follette. If it does not inconvenience anybody else for us to defer the further considertion of the bill, and as it would accommodate him and enable us to attend upon the session of the Senate when a matter of such importance is pending there, I would prefer to do that. The Acting Chairman. In view of the situation, the committee win take a recess until to-morrow morning at 10 o'clock. (The committee accordingly at 2 o'clock and 11 minutes p. m. took a recess until to-morrow, Tuesday, April 21, 1914, at 10 o'clock, at which time, owing to the consideration by the Senate of the Mexican situation, an adjournment was taken to meet on the call of the chairman.) X riiHi^