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X 
 
41ST CONGEESS, } HOUSE OF EBPEESBNTATIVES. ( Eepokt 
 
 { 
 
 2d Session. i } No. 31. 
 
 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATIOlf. 
 
 Makch 1, 1870. — Ordered to be printed and recommitted to the Committee on Banking 
 
 and Currency. 
 
 Mr. Gakfeeld, chairman of the Committee on Banking and Currency, 
 
 made the following 
 
 EEPOET. 
 
 The Committee on Banking and Currency, having been directed by a resolu- 
 tion of the Souse of Representatives, passed December 13, 1869, " to inves- 
 tigate the causes that led to tlie unusu(fl and extraordinary fluctuations 
 of gold in the city of New York, from the 21st to the 27th of September, 
 1869," beg leave to submit the following report : 
 
 In obedience to the order of the House, the committee resolved to 
 examine the following topics, in the order named : 
 
 First. The Gold Exchange and the Gold Exchange Bank ; their his- 
 tory, the character of their ordinary operations, and their relations to 
 the gold panic of September. 
 
 Second. The alleged conspiracy of September, to raise the price of 
 gold ; the persons engaged in it, and the instrumentalities made use of. 
 
 Third. Whether any offlceiB of the national government were directly 
 or indirectly engaged in the alleged conspiracy. 
 
 The peculiar character of the operations to be investigated, and the 
 secrecy with which they were carried on, made it difficult for the com- 
 mittee to find the clue to many transactions, a knowledge of which was 
 essential to a full understanding of the subject ; and the large number 
 of persons engaged in the movement and the reluctance of many of 
 them to disclose their own transactions, have protracted the investiga- 
 tion and swelled the volume of the testimony to an extent w5iich the 
 committee regret, but could not reasonably avoid. 
 
 In narrating the facts developed by the investigation, the committee 
 have used the language of the witnesses themselves wherever it could 
 conveniently be done, and have, in the main, followed the chronological 
 order of events. 
 
 The history of the gold panic will itself include all the topics above 
 named, and they need not, therefore, be treated separately. In order 
 to exhibit the full history, it wUl be necessary to review briefly the 
 movement of gold during the year previous to September last. 
 
 On the 1st of September, 1868, the price of gold was 145. During the 
 
2 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 autumn and winter it continued to decline, interrupted only by occa- 
 sional fluctuations, tiU in March, 1869, it touched ISOJ, (its lowest point 
 for three years,) and continued near that rate until the middle of April, 
 the earliest period to which the evidence taken by the committee refers. 
 At that time, Mr. Jay Godld, president of the Erie Eailroad Company, 
 bought seven millions of gold, and put up the price from 132 to 1-40. 
 Other brokers followed his example, and by the 20th of May had put up 
 the price to IMf , from which point, in spite of speculation, it continued 
 to decline, and on the last day of July stood at 136. 
 
 The first indication of a concerted movement on the part of those who 
 were promment in the panic of September was an effort to secure the 
 appointment of some person who should be subservient to their schemes, 
 as assistant treasurer at New York, in place of Mr. H. H. Van Dyck, 
 who resigned in the month of June. In this effort Mr. Gould and Mr. 
 A. E. Corbin appear to have been closely and intimately connected. II 
 the testimony of the witnesses is to be believed, Mr. Corbin suggested 
 the name of his step-son-in-law, Eobert B. Catherwood, and Mr. Gould 
 joined in the suggestion. This led to an interview with Catherwood, the 
 object of which is disclosed in his own testimony, as follows : 
 
 I went the next day to Iiave a conversation witli Mr. Gould and Mr. Corbin, and I 
 found that the remark was simply this : That the parties could operate in a legitimate 
 way and make a great deal of money, and that all could l>e benefited by it in a legiti- 
 mate manner. I satisfied myself that I could not fill the bill. 
 
 And again, (p. 441 :) 
 
 Mr. Gould, Mr. Corbin, myself, and some other associates, had an understanding that 
 we would go into some operations, such as the purchase of gold, stocks, &o., and that we 
 would share and share alike. 
 
 And, (p. 441:) 
 
 I declined to go into this sub- treasury business. 
 
 On what grounds Mr. Catherwood declined to be a candidate does 
 not appear. 
 
 The parties next turned their attention to General Butterfleld, and, 
 both before and after his appointment, claimed to be his supporters. 
 Gould and Catherwood testify that Corbin claimed to have secured the 
 appointment, though Corbin swears that he made no recommendation in 
 the case.* General Butterfleld was appointed assistant treasurer, and 
 entered upon the duties of that office on the flrst of July. 
 
 It is, however, proper to state that the committee have no evidence 
 that Catherwood's name Avas ever proposed to the President or Secretary 
 as a candidate for the position, nor that General Butterfleld was in 
 any way cognizant of the corrupt schemes which led the conspirators 
 to desire his appointment, nor that their recommendation had any 
 weight in securing it. In addition to these efforts, the conspirators 
 resolved to discover, if possible, the purposes of the President and the 
 Secretary of the Treasury in regard to sales of gold. The flrst attempt 
 in this direction, as exhibited in the evidence, was made on the 15th 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION'. 6 
 
 of June, when the President was on board one of Messrs. Fisk and 
 Gould's Fall Eiver steamers, on his way to Boston. At nine o'clock in 
 the evening supper was served on board, and the presence at the table 
 of such men as Cyrus W. Field, with several leading citizens of New 
 York and Boston, was sufficient to prevent any suspicion that this occa- 
 sion was to be used for the benefit of private speculation; but the testi- 
 mony of Fisk and Gould indicates clearly the purpose they had in view. 
 Mr. Fisk says, (p. 171:) 
 
 On our passage over to Boston with General Grant we endeavored to ascertain what 
 his position in regard to iinances was. We went down to supper about nine o'clock, 
 intending while we were there to have this thing pretty thoroughly talked up, and, if 
 possible, to relieve him from any idea of putting the price of gold down. 
 
 Mr. Gould's account is as follows, (p. 171 :) 
 
 At this supper the question came up about the state of the country, the crops, pros- 
 pects ahead, &o. The President was a listener ; the other gentlemen were discussing ; 
 some were in favor of Boutwell's selling gold, and some opposed to it. After they 
 had all interchanged views, some one asked the President what his View was. He re- 
 marked that he thought there was a certain amount of flotitiousness about the pros- 
 perity of the country, and that the bubble might as well be tapped in one way as 
 another. We supposed, from that conversation, that the President was a contractionist. 
 ' * * His remark struck across us like a wet blanket. 
 
 It appears that these skillfully-contrived efforts elicited from the 
 President only one remark, and this opened a gloomy prospect for the 
 speculators ; for Mr. Gould testifies that early next morning he was at 
 the telegraph oflce, and found there one of his associates telegraphing 
 to New York to sell out his stocks. 
 
 Upon their retiirn to New York, Fisk and Gould determined to bring 
 a great pressure upon the administration, to prevent, if possible, a further 
 decline in gold, which would seriously interfere with their purposes of 
 speculation. . 
 
 This was to be effected by facts and arguments presented in the 
 name of the country and its business interests ; and a financial theory 
 was agreed upon, which, on its face, would appeal to the business interests 
 of the country, and enlist in its support many patriotic citizens, but 
 would, if adopted, racidentally enable the conspirators to make their 
 speculation eminently successful. That theory was, that the business 
 interests of the country required an advance in the price of gold; that, 
 in order to move the fall crops and secure the foreign market for our 
 grain, it was necessary that gold should be put up to 145. According 
 to Mr. Gould, this theory, for the benefit of American trade and com- 
 merce, was suggested by Mr. James McHenry, a prominent English finan- 
 cier, who furnished Mr. Gould the data with which to advocate it. This 
 theory is exhibited very fuUy in the testimony of Mr. Gould (pp. 4 and 5,) 
 and of Mr. Fisk (pp. 171 and 172.) 
 
 The chosen instrument through whom these views were to be laid 
 before the President was Mr. Corbin, who soon became a willing con- 
 vert to the theory. The previous purchase and carrying of two millions 
 
4 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 of United States bonds by Mr. Gould for Corbin's profit may have aided 
 in his conversion. Gould says, (page 152 :) 
 
 sir. Corbin is a very slirewd old gentleman ; much more far-seeing than tlie news- 
 papers give Mm credit for. He saw at a glance the whole case, and said that he 
 thought it was the true platform to stand on ; that whatever the government could do 
 legitimately and fairly to faciltate the exportation of breadstuffs, and procure good prices 
 for the products of the West, they ought to do. 
 
 Having thus secured a concord of purpose to put up the price of gold 
 for the public good, their next step was to press these views upon the 
 President. Corbin also testifies (page 243) as follows : 
 
 I had been out of politics for a good many years, but stiU a remembrance remained 
 with me ; and I vaas now the more interested, as I had a natural desire for the success 
 of the administration of the brother of my wife, especially during its first year. While« 
 at homo Mr. Gould used to call at my house occasionally ; and as I had heard that he 
 was a Wall street operator, I always improved the opportunity to talk with him. I 
 took advantage of every occasion to impress upon him what I thought was a vital 
 point, and that was, to let the farmers and mechanics and manufacturers have good 
 prices for their productions. 
 
 Mr. Gould testifies, (page 152 :) 
 
 Corbin was anxious that I should see the President and communicate to him my view 
 of the subject. Being connected in my railroad business with the matter of transporta- 
 tion, and knowing the views of those managing the other trunk Hues, he thought that 
 I knew the substance of the concentrated views of these people ; and he was anxious 
 that I should see the President and talk with him, and he made an appointment with 
 me to do so. I went to Mr. Corbui's and was introduced to the President. 
 
 It appears from the testimony that in these interviews secured by Cor- 
 bin, great care was taken to urge only the patriotic side of the question, 
 and its relation to the great business interests of the country. Still, Mr. 
 Corbin says that the President engaged in these conversations with reluct- 
 ance, and the moment any allusion was made to the future policy of the 
 government he became very reticent, and on one occasion reprimanded a 
 servant for allowing Mr. Gould such ready access. 
 
 In pursuance of this system of espionage, Mr. Fisk, hearing that the 
 President had gone to Newport, followed him. He says in his evidence, 
 (page 172:) 
 
 General Grant started to go to Newport. I then went down to see him. I had 
 seen him before, but not feeling as thoroughly acquainted as I desired to for this pur- 
 pose, I took a letter of introduction from Mr. Gould, in which it was written that there 
 were three hundred sail of vessels on the Mediterranean from the Black Sea, with 
 grain to supply the Liverpool market. Gold was then about 34 ; if it continued at 
 that price we had very little chance of carrying forward the crop during the fall. I 
 know that we felt very nervous about it. I talked with General Grant on the subject, 
 and endeavored as far as I could to convince him that his policy was one that would 
 bring destruction on ns all. 
 
 This visit of Mr. Fisk brought no comfort to him or his associates. 
 On his return he found that Gould had joined with two brokers, W. 
 S. Woodward and Arthur Kimber, and had bought a large amount of 
 gold, but had not been able greatly to advance the price. 
 
 All their efforts had thus far failed to secure any promising prospect 
 of a rise in gold, and Gould was stiU unable to induce Fisk to co-operate 
 in his purchases. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 5 
 
 A new scheme was started. If by any means they could make the 
 people believe that the Treasury would not seU gold for a month or two, 
 this belief would be almost as valuable to them as though it were true. 
 They therefore sought by stratagem to make an impression to that effect 
 on the public mind, through the press, and in this they came very near 
 being successful. 
 
 On the 5th of August, the Hon. John Bigelow, editor the New York 
 Times, had an interview with the President during which the flnan 
 cial condition and prospects of the country were discussed. 
 
 The statements in two editorial articles which appeared in the Times 
 of August 6th and 7th were understood to represent the President's views, 
 ►if they were not directly iaspired by him. 
 
 On the 19th of August the President passed through New York, and 
 immediately thereafter the conspirators sought to use the columns of the 
 Times for the publication of an article which should appear to be a semi- 
 official declaration of the financial policy of the administration, but which 
 should have the effect to raise the price of gold, and thus aid their spec- 
 ulation. 
 
 At the suggestion of Jay Gould, Mr. Corbin, on the 23d of August, 
 had completed an article (the manuscript text of which, in his own hand- 
 writing, is in possession of the committee) in which it was declared to 
 be the policy of the administration to advance the price of gold, and in 
 which the transportation theory of Gould and Fisk was advocated. This 
 article was headed " Grant's financial policy." It was agreed that it 
 should be published as a leading editorial, for only in that form could 
 the purpose of its authors be accomplished. Its publication was to be 
 managed by Mr. Gould, and lest his personal application to the editor 
 of the Times should carry with it a flavor of "Wall street, he secured the 
 servicesof Mr. James McHenry, a prominent English capitalist, and a per- 
 sonal friend of Mr. Bigelow, who called at the Times office and presented 
 the article as the expression of a person in the intimate confidence of 
 the President, and whose utterances were faithful pictures of the presiden- 
 tial mind. The article was put in type and double-leaded, for a leading 
 editorial ; but, on reading it over, suspicions were aroused, and the 
 financial editor, Mr. Norvell, was sent for. He testifies, (p. 276 :) 
 
 Not knowing where the article came from, yet, from whatever source it originated, 1 
 suspected there might he, from the statements of the last paragraph, a sinister purpose 
 to bull gold ; so the double leads were taken out, the tail of the article stricken off, and 
 the article, as it appears, published on the 25th. »***■*** 
 The intention, I have no doubt, was that it should appear just as much semi-ofificially 
 as the other article of the 6th of August, which Mr. Bigelow himself wrote after hi 
 mterview with the President. 
 
 The article as it was written, and the amended article as published, 
 appear in parallel columns in Mr. Norvell's testimony, (p. 276.) 
 
 A comparison of the doctrines of the two wiU show how cunning was 
 the fraud attempted. 
 
 Hoping still to make this article useful, Mr. Gould addressed a letter 
 
6 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 to the Secretary of the Treasury, August 30, with the manifest purpose 
 of drawing out a denial or admission that the article in the Times cor- 
 rectly reflected the intended financial policy of the administration for the 
 next three or four months. This letter is made a part of Mr. Boutwell's 
 testimony, (p. 372.) The brief and formal reply of the Secretary gave 
 Gould no clue to the purposes of the government. 
 
 About the 1st of September, and just before leaving New York, 
 the President wrote a letter to Secretary Boutwell, who was then at 
 his home in Massachusetts, in which the President spoke of the financial 
 condition of the country, and suggested that it would not Ise wise to sell 
 gold in such large amounts, to force down the price, while the crops were 
 moving, as it might thus embarrass the West. , 
 
 This letter was received by the Secretary on the 4th September, and 
 though it gave no order, but left the whole subject to his discretion, 
 yet he determined not to sell so large an amount during September as 
 he had done in the preceding months, and telegraphed the Assistant 
 Secretary at Washington not to sell any gold in addition to the amount 
 required for the sinking fund. 
 
 Whether the conspirators obtained any knowledge of this letter and 
 telegram, the committee have been unable to determine; but on the 3d 
 and 4th of September gold again commenced to rise rapidly, and on the 
 6th touched 137f . 
 
 All this time Grould continued to make large purchases. But, as Fisk 
 well said, "the whole country was against them," and one after another 
 of Gould's associates became alarmed. W. S. Woodward testifies, (p, 
 220,) that he bought far more than he intended to, and that he got Gould 
 to take all but four millions off his hands. Other brokers felt the same 
 alarm. It was evident that the movement was wholly artificial. The 
 confidence in United States bonds increased in Europe every day. The 
 prospect for abundant crops was flattering. 
 
 In spite of many forced operations, the export of specie was unusually 
 light. Gold came pouring in from all quarters, and even commenced to 
 return from Europe. Jay Gould himself testifies, (pp. 135, 136 :) 
 
 I did not want to buy so muoh gold. * » * i jj^d to "buy or else to tack 
 down and show the white feather. * * »• j ^^^^ forced into it by the 
 
 hears selling out. They were bound to put it down. I got into the contest. And 
 aU these other fellows deserted me lite rats from a ship. Kimber sold out and got 
 short. « 
 
 In Mr. Gould's efforts to force up the price of gold he seems to have 
 left no means untried to open every avenue of information, and to buy 
 or conciliate all possible influence and aid. He placed General Butter- 
 field under obligation to him by a private loan, and by inviting him to j oin 
 in buying a controlling share of the stock of the Tenth National Bank; 
 and he swears, though General Butterfield denies it, that he bought and 
 carried, during August and September, on the general's order, and for 
 his profit, $1,500,000 of gold. 
 
 To secure the more earnest aid of Corbin, and his pretended knowl- 
 
GOLD PAKIC INVESTIGATION. 7 
 
 edge of the views and purposes of the President, he bought, in two lots, 
 and carried for Oorbin, one and a^half mUlions of gold. Tliis is admitted 
 by Corbin, and the memorandum of the purchase, dated September 2, is 
 a part of the evidence. On the 6th September, Corbin received from 
 Gould $25,000, the profits which had accrued in one week on the smaller 
 of the two lots. These purchases were made by Gould without margins 
 or security. 
 
 In addition to the influence thus obtained by purchase, he pretended 
 that the President had become a convert to his theory of putting up the 
 price of gold to aid the business of the country; and he had heard the 
 President tell Corbin that he (the President) had countermanded Bout- 
 well's order to seU gold during the month of September. Oorbin swears 
 that he never heard the President make such a statement, and Mr. 
 Boutwell testifies that the President gave no order on the subject. 
 
 Such were the means employed by Gould to secure influence in his 
 effort to depreciate the currency of the country. 
 
 With all the purchases he had made up to the middle of September, 
 he had not been ^ble to hold the price above 135 and 136. Deserted 
 by Woodward and Kimber, and unsupported by his old associate, his 
 situation grew desperate, and he once more invited Fisk to join him. 
 
 Fisk replied that the skies did not look bright; that the tendency of 
 gold was downward; that everybody was opposed to an upward move- 
 ment, and that if they should buy much the treasury would sell. 
 
 It would appear that nothing but the scent of corruption could sharpen 
 the appetite of Fisk for the game which his leader was pursuing. His 
 own testimony on this point (page 173) exhibits his singular deprav- 
 ity and the kind of influences which could move him to act in opposition 
 to his own judgment. 
 
 He was told that Corbin had enlisted the interest of persons high in 
 authority, that the President, Mrs. Grant, General Porter, and General 
 Butterfield were corruptly interested in the movement, and that the Sec- 
 retary of the Treasury had been forbidden to sell gold. Though these dec- 
 larations were wickedly false, as the evidence abundantly shows, yet the 
 compounded villainy presented by Gould and Corbin was too tempting a 
 bait for Fisk to resist. He joined the movement at once, and brought to its 
 aid all the force of his magnetic and infectious enthusiasm. The malign 
 influence which Catiline wielded over the reckless and abandoned youth 
 of Eome, finds a fitting parallel in the power which Fisk carried into 
 Wall street, when, followed by the thugs of Erie and the debauchees of 
 the Opera House, he swept into the gold-room and defied both the street 
 and the treasury. Indeed, the whole gold movement is not an un- 
 worthy copy of that great conspiracy to lay Eome in ashes and deluge 
 its streets in blood, for the purpose of enriching those who were to 
 apply the torch and wield the dagger. 
 
 With the great revenues of the Erie Eailway Company at their com- 
 mand, and having converted the Tenth N"ational Bank into a manufac- 
 
8 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 tory of certified checks to be used as cash at their pleasure, they terrified 
 all opponent^ by the gigantic power qf their combination, and amazed 
 and dazzled the dissolute gamblers of Wall street by declaring that they 
 had in league with them the chief ofBcers of the national government 
 On this point, Mr. Hodgskin testifies, (p. 35 :) 
 
 When they had purchased a large amount of this gold, prohahly thirty or forty mil- 
 lions, they began to circulate the rumor, or at aU events the rumors began to be afloat 
 —about the middle of September, as nearly as I can recoUect— that the parties who, as 
 the expression was, were manipulating the gold market had in league with them pretty 
 much everybody in authority in the United States, beginning with President Grant 
 and ending with the doorkeepers of Congress. The President was reported as having 
 a large interest, as well as every member of his cabinet, especially the Secretary of the 
 Treasury ; also, a large number of the members of Congress. There is no doubt but 
 that these stories were set afloat by these men themselves, in order to frighten people 
 into buying gold. 
 
 Possessed of these real and pretended powers, the conspirators soon 
 had at their command an army of brokers, as corrupt as themselves, 
 though less powerful and daring. They opened an account for the 
 " pool," which they styled the national gold account, hoping thus to 
 strengthen the pretense that officers of the national government were 
 interested with them. 
 
 They gradually pushed the price of gold from 135J, where it stood on 
 the morning of the 13th September, until on the evening of Wednesday, 
 the 22d, they held it firm at 140J. Eussell A. Hills, clerk for WiUiam 
 Heath & Co., had bought seven millions for the clique. James EUis, 
 partner of the same firm, had bought for them $6,895,000 more, under 
 orders to put up the price and hold it there. 
 
 Woodward testifies that he bought eighteen millions, of which ten 
 mUlions were taken by Gould. 
 
 H. K. Enos testifies that he bought ten millions. 
 
 E. K. Willard testifies that he bought ten mOlions. 
 
 Chas. E. Quincy, of Heath & Co., testifies that he held over fourteen 
 millions. 
 
 On the evening of Wednesday, the 22d, gold stood at 140J, and ac- 
 cording to Fisk's testimony the conspirators held calls from fifty to 
 sixty millions. Mr. Gould thinks it was not more than twenty-five mil- 
 lions, but his partner (Smith) testifies that they held from forty to fifty 
 or fifty-five millions, in the purchase of which they had employed from 
 fifty to sixty brokers, ^o better proof was needed that the natural ten- 
 dency of gold was downward than the fact that it required these 
 enormous purchases, with all the accompaniments of fraud, to hold it 
 three cents higher than it had stood sixteen days before. 
 
 During the ten days in which these purchases wer3 made, the con- 
 spirators were disturbed by the movements of the Secretary of the 
 Treasury. 
 
 About the lith of September it became known in New York that 
 within a few days Secretary Boutwell would pass through the city and 
 that he had accepted an invitation to dine at the Union League Club. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. » 
 
 It was noised about that the dinner was gotten up by parties short of 
 gold, who expected to use the occasion to influence the Secretary in 
 favor of increasing his sales of gold, and breaking up the supposed 
 clique. Mr. Gould became alarmed at the confident manner in which 
 the Secretary's intentions were spoken of, and solicitous as to what effect 
 the bears and business men might have on the Secretary's policy. 
 
 He called on Oorbin, and communicated his fears. The testimony 
 shows that he distrusted Corbin's pretended influence. For nearly a 
 fortnight he had called twice a day, and while studying the situation 
 was narrowly watching Corbin's behavior. He knew that every cent of 
 advance in the price of gold added $15,000 to Corbin's profit from the 
 gold movement, and that this fact might explain Corbin's pretense of 
 knowing the President's purposes, and of being able to influence them. 
 
 Corbin continued to assure Gould that there was no danger, and on 
 the evening of the 17th September it was agreed that the former should 
 address a letter to the President, urging him not to interfere ia the 
 gold market by ordering or permitting sales from the Treasury. During 
 that night Corbin wrote a long letter on the subject, which was not 
 considered worth preserving, but was destroyed soon after it was 
 received by the President. The testimony shows that the letter con- 
 tained no reference to the private speculations of Corbin, but urged the 
 President not to interfere in the fight then going on between the bulls 
 and bears, nor to allow the Secretary of the Treasury .to do so by any 
 sales of gold. The letter also repeated the old arguments in regard to 
 transportation of the crops. Its contents are exhibited in the testimony 
 of both Corbin (p. 249) and Gould, (p. 155.) 
 
 While Corbin was writing it, Gould called upon Fisk to furnish his 
 most faithful servant to carry the letter. W. O. Chapin was designated 
 as the messenger, and early on the following morning went to Mr. 
 Corbiu's house and received it, together with a note to General Porter. 
 He was instructed to proceed with all possible haste, and telegraph 
 Fisk as soon as the letter was delivered. He reached Pittsburg a little 
 after midnight, and proceediag at once by carriage to Washington, 
 Pennsylvania, thirty miles distant, delivered the letter to the President, 
 and, after waiting some time, asked if there was any answer. The Presi. 
 dent told him there was no answer, and he hurried away to the nearest 
 telegraph ofiftce and sent to Mr. Fisk this dispatch : " Letters delivered 
 all right," and then returned to Few York. 
 
 Mr. Fisk appears to have interpreted the " aU right" of the dispatch 
 as an answer to the doctrine of the Corbin letter, and says he proceeded 
 in his enormous purchases upon that supposition. The relation of this 
 letter to the whole transaction is sufilciently important to warrant a 
 fuller statement in regard to it. The messenger Chapin, in his evidence 
 before the committee, details, with great minuteness, his part in this 
 transaction. He says he delivered a letter addressed to General Porter 
 in the parlor, and that a few minutes afterwards, as the President 
 
10, GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 entered the porch, of the house, he delivered the letter addressed to him. 
 Chapin's testimony, (page 232,) is as follows : 
 
 Question. Were any words said either by tlie President or General Porter giving the 
 least information as to what these letters contained ?— Answer. No, sir ; there was not 
 
 Q. Were you informed before you left New York what the substance of the letters 
 was ? — A. No, sir ; I was not. I had no knowledge of it in any way. 
 
 Q. Did you mean by your telegram to say that the President answered that the con- 
 tents of the letter were aU right ?— A. No ; I did not know anything about th.e contents 
 of the letter. I meant to say that he had received the letters and read them ; that they 
 had been delivered aU right. 
 
 Q. You did not, in your telegram, allude to the contents of the letters or the subject- 
 matter of them ? — A. No, nothing of the kind. 
 
 The account given of this transaction by General Porter is asfoUows: 
 Evidence, (page 444 :) 
 
 WhUe we were stopping at Washington, Pennsylvania, the President and I were 
 engaged one morning playing a game of croqiiet in the yard. I was told that there 
 was a gentleman there who wanted to see me, and I sent him word to wait till we had 
 finished the game. I then walked into the parlor, the President taking a seat in the 
 porch, near the window. A gentleman in the room handed me a letter, which I opened 
 It was to this effect : 
 
 "New YorJc, (I forget the date.) 
 
 " The bearer has a letter which he desires to deliver to the President. Please afford 
 
 him an opportunity of do'ing so. 
 
 "A. E. COEBm.'' 
 
 I called to the President, and he stepped into the parlor, and a letter was handed to 
 him by this messenger. The President walked out, I think, on the stoop, reading it, 
 and in a few minutes I walked out in another direction. The messenger was still sitting 
 in the parlor alone. A few moments afterward the President returned, and this gentle- 
 man arose, hesitated a moment, and said : " Any reply ?" or " Anything further ?" The 
 President said " No answer ;" and the messenger started off, got into a buggy, and drove 
 away. I said to the President, " Who is that man ?" He said, " I do not know. Why ?" 
 I said, " I merely asked on account of the peculiarity of the letter of introduction which 
 he brought to me ; his name is not mentioned in it." He said, " Letter of introduction 
 from whom?" I replied, "from Mr. Corbin of New York." He said, " Is that messen- 
 ger from New York ?" I said, "He appears to be." He seemed quite surprised, and 
 was silent for a few moments, and then, and in some subsequent conversation, he gave 
 me the impression that he supposed this man was a messenger from the post office, who 
 had merely brought the mail up. It had been customary for the postmaster himself, or 
 one of his clerks, to bring the mail to the President, and deliver it in person. 
 
 Question. In what the President said to the messenger, did you understand that any 
 reference was made to the contents of the letter ? — Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is the letter which you received in existence ? — A. It is not. It was an ordinal^' 
 note, which I tore up a moment afterwards. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the letter addressed to the President is in existence or not ? — 
 A. My understanding is that it is not. It was destroyed at the time. 
 
 Q. State what is the habit of the President in that respect ; whether he is in the 
 habit of destroying letters addressed to him or not ? — A. He destroys a great many, all 
 that are not of importance fpi the files. 
 
 Q. Do you keep his files ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 •Q. If that letter were in existence, would you have knowledge of it ? A. It 
 
 would be in my custody in all probability. 
 
 This letter, which Corbin had led his co-conspirators to trust as their 
 safeguard against interference from Mr. Boutwell, finally proved their 
 ruin. Its effect was the very reverse of what they anticipated. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 11 
 
 * General Porter testifies, (page 448 :) 
 
 The letter would have been like himdrecls of othet letters received by the President, 
 
 ' if it had not been for the fact that it was sent by a special messenger from New York 
 
 ■ to Washington, Pennsylvania, the messenger having to take a carriage and ride some 
 
 ' twenty-eight mQes from Pittsburg. This letter, sent in that way, urging a certain 
 
 policy on the administration, taken in connection with some rumors that had got into 
 
 ' the newspapers at that time as to Mr. Corbin's having become a great bull in gold, ex- 
 
 ' cited the President's suspicions and he believed that Mr. Corbin must have a pecuniary 
 
 interest in those speculations ; that he was not actuated simply by a desire to see a 
 
 certain policy carried out for the benefit of the administration. Feeling in that way, 
 
 he stiggestedto Mrs/ Grant to say, in a letter she was writing to Mrs. Corbin, that rumors 
 
 had reached her that Mr. Corbin was connected with speculators in New York, and that 
 
 she hoped that if this was so he would disengage himself from them at once ; that he 
 
 (the President) was very much distressed at such rilmors. She wrote a letter that 
 
 evening, which I did not see. That, I think, was the night after the messenger arrived, 
 
 and while we were still at Washington, Pennsylvania. 
 
 Both Mr. Grould and Mr. Corbin have testified in regard to this letter, 
 and they state its contents substantially as given by General Porter. 
 
 It was received in Kew Tork on the evening of Wednesday, the 22d. 
 Late that night Mr. Gould called at Corbin's house. Corbin disclosed 
 the contents of the letter, and they sat down to consider its significance. 
 Both have detailed at length in their evidence what transpired between 
 them that night and the following morning. (See Gould's evidence, pp. 
 15G and 157, and Corbin's evidence, pp. 251 to 253.) 
 
 This letter created the utmost alarm in the minds of both these con- 
 spirators. It showed Corbin that his duplicity was now strongly sus- 
 pected, if not actually discovered. It showed Gould that he had been 
 deceived by Corbin's representations, and that a blow from the Treasury 
 might fall upon him at any hour. 
 
 The picture of these two men that night, as presented in the evidence, 
 is a remarkable one. Shut up in the library, near midnight, Corbin was 
 bending over the table and straining with dim eyes to decipher and 
 read the contents of a letter, written in j)encil, to his wife, while the 
 great gold gambler, looking over his shoulder, caught with his sharper 
 vision every word. 
 
 The envelope was examined, with its post-mark and date, and all the 
 circumstances which lent significance to the document. In that inter- 
 view Corbin had the advantage, for he had had time to mature a plan. 
 He seems to have determined, by a new deception, to save his credit 
 with the President, and at the same time reap the profit from his specu- 
 lation with Mr. Gould. He represented to Gould the danger of allow- 
 ing the President any reason to believe that he, Corbin, was engaged in 
 speculation, and said he had prepared a letter to the President denying 
 that he had any interest in the movement, direct or indirect, and said 
 he must send the letter by the first mail, but that in order to send it it 
 must be true. He proposed, therefore, to Gould that they should settle 
 the purchase of a million and a half by Gould, paying to him the ac- 
 crued profits, which, as gold stood that night, woidd amount to over 
 $100,000 in addition to the $25,000 he had already received. 
 
12 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Goiild was unwilling either to refuse or accept the proposition. Fear- 
 ful, on the one hand, of losing his money, and on the other of incurring 
 Corbin's hostility, he asked a delay until morning, and in the mean time 
 enjoined and maintained secrecy in regard to the existence of the let- 
 ter. The next morning they met again, and concerning this interview 
 their testimony disagrees. Corbin says that Gould, offered him 8100,000 
 on account if he would remain in the pool, but swears that, by an heroic 
 effort of virtue on his part, and urged by the entreaty of his Mfe, he 
 declined the offer. Gould swears that Corbin insisted on receiving full 
 payment and discharge. Corbin says that Gould gave him a look of deep 
 distrust, exclaiming, "If the contents of Mrs. Grant's letter is known, 
 I am a ruined man." Corbin promised secrecy, and the conference 
 broke up. 
 
 Gould went from Corbin's house to the ofiQceof the Brie railroad, still 
 keeping Mrs. Grant's letter a secret from Fisk. Later in the day he 
 disclosed only enough of the truth to make Fisk jointly responsible for 
 whatever amount of money he should pay to Corbin. Of this transao- 
 tion Mr. Fisk says, (page 31 :) 
 
 Mr. Gould says to me, " Old Corbin feels troubled and nervous about some gold; he 
 wants a hundred thousand dollars." " What do yon think of it ?" Said I, " If he wants 
 that money to deal out to people, and it wUl help to strengthen our position in regard 
 to this gold, we will give him one hundred or two hundred thousand." " Well," said he, 
 " do as you please." I went immediately and got a check for a hundred thousand 
 dollars and gave it to Gould, who said he would give it to Corbin that night. 
 
 Mr. Gould testifies that the check was drawn but never paid to 
 Corbin. 
 
 Mr. Fisk knew only of Corbin's nervousness, but Gould knew far more. , 
 He says that Corbin had deceived him in pretending to possess know- 
 ledge of the President's purposes, and of being in any way able to 
 influence them. He saw the whole extent of the danger and the rain 
 which a Treasury sale would bring upon him. New victims were pre- 
 pared and a new scheme devised to save himself. 
 
 Mr. Gould's plan appears to have been that Fisk and others should 
 push on the work of buying and crowding up the price of gold, but that 
 he himself would buy only enough to keep up appearances, while he was 
 quietly and rapidly selling as large amounts as possible without excit. 
 ing the suspicions of his associates. William Belden, a former partner 
 of Fisk, became a ready tool for the accomplishment of this purpose. 
 Bringing with him a crowd of fresh brokers, he went noisily into the 
 street, proclaiming everywhere that gold was going up much higher, and 
 gave unlimited orders to buy. That he might have the credit on which 
 to base his purchases, he referred to Fisk and Smith, Gould, Martin & 
 Co., and his principals and backers. Whether it was an afterthought 
 to cover the retreat of the conspirators, or a device prepared in advance 
 to enable them to repudiate their purchases, is a matter of doubt- but 
 it appears in the evidence that Fisk held a letter from Belden which 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 13 
 
 gave him unlimited authority to purchase gold at Belden's risk, aud to 
 give any orders he chose to Belden's brokers. Belden swears he has no 
 remembrance of this letter. Early Thursday morning Belden brought 
 into his back office Mr. Albert Speyers and introduced him to Fisk, 
 Gould, and Smith, telling him to take orders from Mr. Fisk, and made 
 the undoubted impression on Speyers's mind that he was to act as broker 
 of the whole party. Armed with this authority, and in common with 
 many other brokers, Speyers proceeded to buy gold. His first order 
 was " buy quickly two millions ; " and a few miautes later, " continue to 
 buy." When he hesitated he was told to go on and buy without fear. 
 Mr. Stimson bought many millions under an order to put gold to forty- 
 four. Many other brokers bought vast sums under similar orders. But 
 while these tools and victims of the clique were buying, Gould himself 
 was selling. He says of that day's business, (p. 142 :) 
 
 My purcliases were very light. I was a seller of gold that day. I purchased merely 
 enough to make helieve that 1 was a hull. 
 
 While Gould was quietly selling many millions, and Belden buying 
 more millions than he knew of, Fisk spent half an hour in the gold-room, 
 ' the scene of the greatest excitement, received the adulation of his 
 .. satellites, and struck terror into the hearts of the bears by offering to 
 ! bet any part of $50,000 that gold wotlld seU at 200. After gloating 
 ! awhile over the impending ruin which they had planned he withdrew to 
 
 collect his forces for the next day's work. 
 i Thursday afternoon gold closed at about 144, and the conspirators, 
 flushed with apparent success, held a meetuig that evening to lay plans 
 i for the next day's campaign. The operations of the gold clearing-house, 
 which usually amount to seventy millions, had reached that day two 
 hundred and thirty-nine millions. The clique held calls for more than 
 one hundred millions of gold, and as there were not more than fifteen 
 millions of actual gold and gold certificates in New York, outside of the 
 sub-treasury, they seemed to be masters of the situation. Every man 
 that had bought or loaned gold owed it to them, and must buy it of 
 them or settle at such ruinous i'ates as they might dictate. They had a 
 full list of all who were short of gold, including more than two hundred 
 and fifty prominent firms in JTew York, many of them leading bankers 
 and merchants, whose legitimate business required large purchases of 
 gold. 
 
 At that meeting it was proposed to publish this list next morning in 
 all the city papers, stating the amount each firm was short, and how 
 much gold the clique held, and informing the victims that if they did 
 not settle at 160 before 3 o'clock a higher rate would be demanded. 
 
 So strongly did this shameless proposal commend itself to some of 
 the conspirators that they sent for counsel to inquire whether there was 
 any legal obstacle in the way. They were informed that such a course 
 would constitute a conspiracy under the statutes of New York, and for 
 this reason, or perhaps for fear of popular fury, the scheme was aban- 
 doned. 
 
14 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 It was finally determined to put gold up still further and to continue 
 tlie work of the previous day on a still larger scale. Early on Friday 
 morning Pisk and Gould drove down to Wall street, reading on their 
 way from the morning papers the unmistakable signs of the wrath in 
 store for them. Nothing can more strikingly exhibit the artificial and 
 unnatural character of speculation in gold than one of the answers of 
 Mr. Fisk when asked why he feared any sale the Treasury could 
 make, while the clique held calls for six times as much gold as there 
 was in ISTew York outside the sub-treasury, and much more than both 
 the Treasury and the city could command, he answered, "O, our 
 phantom gold can't stand the weight of the real stuff." 
 
 They made Heath's office their headquarters, and, with bullies standing 
 as guards at the door and a crowd of runners at their elbows, issued the 
 final orders for their grand assault upon the commercial community. 
 
 Belden was the man of straw, in whose name all purchases that day 
 were to be made. Fisk was to give the orders to buy, so as to leave it 
 to be inferred that they were for account of himself and Gould, other- 
 wise brokers would not have executed the orders. Willard was to at- 
 tend to the loans and to force the collection of all the money they could 
 by way of margins from borrowers. Speyers, deceived and confiding, but 
 utterly imprudent and injudicious, was to be the convenient tool to bid 
 up the market in the gold-room. Smith, Osborne, Dater, and Timpson, 
 and other leading brokers of this clique, were to frighten the borrowers 
 of gold into private settlements in their office, and Jay Gould, the guilty 
 plotter of all these criminal proceedings, determined to betray his own 
 associates, silent and imperturbable, by nods and whispers, directed all. 
 He knew that day better than ever the value of silence, and as he testi- 
 fied to the committee, (p. 143 :) 
 
 I had my own plans, and did not mean that anybody should say that I had opened 
 my mouth that day, and I did not. 
 
 At 9 o'clock Speyers received his first instructions. He testifies (p. 
 64) that he met Belden coming out of his office, who said : 
 
 "Come with me to Heath's office." He also said, "This will ho the last day 
 of the gold room. We have got over $110,000,000 of calls, (meaning that they 
 had a right to call for |110,000,000 at a certain price,) and we have an im- 
 mense amount of money and can buy aU the gold the government dare to 
 seU. You need not be afraid of any orders that are given you; you will bo all 
 right." We had now reached Mr. Heath's office, (this was said fin the way to 
 Heath's office,) where I found Fisk and Gould and others. Pisk told me to buy all tho 
 gold I could get at 145, or under. Re spoke loud in the hearing of everybody. Tho 
 market price (that was before the board) was then 143^. I then went to the gold- 
 room and began to buy cautiously until it passed my limit of 145. Then, while I 
 was standing thore, a slip of paper was handed to me, on which was written, " Put it 
 to 150 at once," signed "James Fisk, jr.," and addressed "A. Speyers." I continued 
 to buy until I got it up to 150. I went back to Mr. Heath's office several times during 
 my purchases, and reported to Messrs Fisk and Gould, showing both of them what I 
 had done. Fisk said, "All right. Go back and take all what you can get at 150." 
 
 Again, (p. 65 :) 
 
 I then went back to Mr. Fisk and told him what had happened, [viz: that gold had 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 15 
 
 gone atove 150.] He said lie had heard of it, and he added : " Go and bid gold up to 
 160. Take all you can get at 160. But you will be too late, for I have given orders to 
 other brokers already to buy at 160." I then went back and bought gold until I got it 
 up te 160. After I had bought a lot at 160, 1 reported again to Mr. Fisk, and he told 
 me I should continue to buy at 160. 'Gold passed 160 and went up to 163«}. 
 
 Before noon Speyers bad purchased nearly sixty millions, and other 
 brokers had so swelled the amount that Belden swears he has no means 
 of knowing how much gold was bought in his name. 
 
 In the meantime Osborne, and Willard, and Smith were taking the 
 borrowers of gold, one after another, into their private offices, and by 
 working on their fear^ and threatening them to advance the market to 
 200, frightened and bullied them into making private settlements at 
 ruinous rates. At short intervals Willard, and Smith, and others, came 
 into the office where Gould was sitting, and reported these settlements, 
 and stUl Speyers was ordered to buy, buy, buy, and to not let the price 
 go below 160. 
 
 One thing was, of course, essential to complete success that day. The 
 clique needed vast sums of money so as to be able to pay for the gold 
 that parties who declined to place margins in their hands might return 
 fo them. For this Gould had made, as he thought, ample provision. 
 He had some time before purchased a controlling interest in the Tenth 
 National Bank, and used that institution as a convenience to certify the 
 checks of his firm. To this bank he wrote a letter the day before the 
 panic, guaranteeing them from loss through certifying the checks of 
 WiUiam Heath & Co. 
 
 Eussell A. Hills, clerk of Heath & Co., says, (p. 398 :) 
 
 He told me that the Tenth National Bank had agreed to certify to an unUniited ex- 
 tent, day by day. A short time afterwards one of the officers of the bank camo into 
 the office of William Heath & Co., and said that it was impossible for the bank to cer- 
 tify, as there were throe bank examiners in there to prevent it. 
 
 It is in evidence that on Thursday the bank certified checks to the 
 amount of twenty-five millions, and on Friday, notwithstanding the 
 presence of the examiners, certified fourteen millions more. 
 
 While this desperate work was going on in New York, its alarming 
 and ruinous effects were reaching and paralyzing the business of the 
 whole country and carrying terror and ruin to thousands. Business 
 men everywhere, from Boston to San Francisco, read disaster in every new 
 bulletin. The price of gold fluctuated so rapidly that the telegraphic 
 indicators could not keep pace with its movement. The complicated 
 mechanism of these indicators is moved by the electric current carried 
 over telegraphic wires directly from the gold-room, and it is in evidence 
 that in many instances these wires were melted or burned off in the 
 efforts of operators to keep up with the news. 
 
 In the meantime two forces were preparing to strike the conspirators 
 a blow. One was a movement led by James Brown, a Scotch banker of 
 New York, and supported by many leading bankers and merchants. 
 The situation of all those whose legitimate business required the pur- 
 chase of gold was exceedingly critical, and the boldest of them, under 
 
16 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 t 
 
 the lead of Brown, joined the great crowd of speculative bears in des- 
 perate efforts to break down the conspiracy and put down the price of 
 gold by heavy sales. The other was a movement at the national capital. 
 The President returned from Pennsylvania to "Washington on Thurs- 
 day, the 23d, and that evening had a consultation with the Secretary of 
 the Treasury concerning the condition of the gold market. The testi- 
 mony of Mr. Boutwell shows that both the President and himself con- 
 curred in the opinion that they should, if possible, avoid any interference 
 on the part of the government in a contest where both parties were 
 struggling for private gain ; but both agreed that if the price of gold 
 should be forced still higher, so as to threaten a general financial panic, 
 . it would be their duty to interfere and protect the business interests of 
 the country. The next morning the price advanced rapidly, and tele- 
 grams poured into Washington from all parts of the country, exlilbitihg 
 the general alarm and urging the government to interfere and, if possi- 
 ble, prevent a financial crash. Soon after eleven o'clock the Secretary 
 called at the Executive Mansion. Concerning that visit Mr. Boutwell 
 says, (pp. 345, 346 :) 
 
 He [the President] expressed the opinion, almost at the beginning of the conversa- 
 ,tion, that we ought to sell $5,000,000. I recollect expressing the opinion that we 
 should sell $3,000,000, because that was the amount that I had in my mind when I left 
 the office, and I thought it would be sufficient for the purpose. We had very little 
 conversation beyond that. I' returned almost immediately, without saying to him 
 whether I would order the sale of $5,000,000, or of $3,000,000, or of any other sum, ex- 
 cept that it was agreed that gold should be sold. ' Upon going back to my office, I 
 came to the conclusion that I would advertise the sale of $4,000,000 ; and immediately 
 upon my return to my office I dictated a dispatch, which was taken by Mr. Bartlett, 
 my short-hand writer. The following is a copy : 
 
 " Teeastjey Department, September 24, 1869. 
 ."Daniel Buttbefield, Assistant Treasurer U. 8., New York: 
 
 " Sen four millions ($4,000,000) gold to-morrow, and buy four millions ($4,000,000) 
 bonds. 
 
 "GEO. S. BOUTWELL, 
 
 " Charge to department " Secretary Treasury. 
 
 "Sent 11.42 a.m." 
 
 The message was not in cipher, and there was no attempt to keep it 
 secret. It was duplicated, and a copy sent over each of the rival lines. 
 The one sent by the Western Union line was dated at the Treasury 11.42, 
 Washington time, and reached General Butterfleld 12.10, New York 
 time. That sent over the Franklin line was dated at the Treasury 11.45, 
 and was delivered to General Butterfield at 12,05, New York time. The 
 actual time occupied in transmitting the dispatch from the Secretary 
 to General Butterfleld, including messenger travel at both ends of the 
 line, was eight minutes, the same over each line ; but in the branch oflftce 
 of the Western Union Company, at Washington, there was a delay of 
 eight minutes before the operator could get control of the wire. The 
 committee, after careful examination, found no evidence that any ofBcers 
 or employes of either company were unfaithful to their duty in regard 
 to this dispatch. Its contents may have been heard in some of the tele- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. . 17 
 
 graph offices in 'Sew York, by outside experts standing near the instru- 
 ments, and thus the news may have been known in the gold-room w 
 advance of its publication ; but the evidence on that point is not conclu- 
 sive. A few minutes before noon, when the excitement in the gold-room 
 had risen toatempest,JamesBrown offered tosell one million at 162; then 
 another million at 161 ; and then five millions more at 160 ; and the mar- 
 ket broke. About ten minutes afterwards the news came that the Treas- 
 ury would sell, and the break was complete. Within the space of fifteen 
 minutes the price fell from 160 to 133, and, in the language of one of the 
 witnesses, half of Wall street was involved in ruin. 
 
 It was not without diflculty that the conspirators escaped from the 
 fury of their victims and took refuge in their up-town stronghold — the 
 office of the Erie EaUroad Company. 
 
 During Thursday and Friday they had sold out, at high rates, a large 
 part of the gold they had previously j)urchased, and had made many 
 private settlements at rates ruinous to their victims. They at once 
 repudiated all the purchases they had made through Belden, amounting 
 to seventy millions, and it is evident that, either before or after the fact, 
 they bought Belden's consent to this villainy. 
 
 The gold clearing-house, with its almost unlimited facilities for set- 
 tling the accounts of gold gamblers, was suffocated under the crushing 
 weight of its transactions, and its doors were closed. 
 
 Whatever may have been the final pecuniary results to the conspirators, 
 it is evident that on that day Mr. Fisk, at Icasfe, supposed they had suf- 
 fered enormous losses. He called on Corbin and overwhelmed him with, 
 threats and denunciations. In his evidence concerning this interview 
 he says, (p. 175 :) 
 
 I knew that somebody had run a saw right intto ns, and said I, " This whole thing has . 
 turned out just as I told you it would, I considered the whole party a pack of cowards;'' 
 and I expected that when we came to clear our hands they would sock it right into us 
 I said to him, " I don't know whether you have lied or not, and I don't know what ought, 
 to he done with you." He was on one side of the tahle weeping and wailing, and I was 
 gnashfiig my teeth. 
 
 Goiild seemed to have hope that Corbin might still be of some service, 
 by goiug to Washington and representing to the President that the 
 effects of the disaster on all parties might be mitigated by suspending 
 the government's order to sell gold. Fisk joiaed in this proposal with 
 but little hope, and said in regard to Corbin's going : " I thought that 
 the further off he was the happier I should be." Two days before this 
 Corbin had written to the President denyiog, in the most positive terms, 
 that he had any interest, direct or indirect, in the gold movement, and 
 ventured to go to Washington on Saturday night, and on Sunday 
 attempted to talk with the President on the subject. According to his 
 own testimony, and also that of General Porter, the President cut him 
 short with the remark that that subject was closed up. Corbin pursued 
 the attempt no further, and that night returned to New York, The fact 
 H. Eep. 31 2 
 
18 GOLD PAIJIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 that they received no dispatch on Sunday, and that the next morning 
 further sales of government gold were ordered, showed Fisk and Gould 
 that Corbin's mission had failed. He made no report, and the three con- 
 spirators never met again. Pisk says of this mission of Corbin's, (p. 176:) 
 
 Matters took such a turn that it vra.3 no use. It was, each man drag out his own 
 corpse. 
 
 On Monday, the 27th, Fisk and Gould tried another method of saving 
 what they could from the ruins of Friday. To answer the demand for 
 settlement, made by scores of victims, they obtained from some of the 
 courts of New York City, in a single day, twelve injunctions and judi- 
 cial orders, which placed the gold-clearing house in the hands of a 
 receiver ; restrained its ofacers from making settlements, except on the 
 order of the courts ; restrained the officers of the Gold Exchange from 
 enforcing against the conspirators their rules to compel settlements 
 among its members. The committee do not consider it necessary to 
 foUow the history of the settlements further. 
 
 In reviewing the whole subject, the committee submit the foUowing 
 conclusions : 
 
 First. The Gold Exchange and the Gold Exchange Bank are creations 
 of this country and this decade alone. All their operations are founded 
 on the difference between the price of gold and of paper money. All 
 the foreign trade of the country, and indeed aU transactions where the 
 commodity is purchased in one currency and sold in another, require a 
 purchase, loan, or sale of gold to comi^lete the transaction. To meet this 
 legitimate necessity of business these institutions were organized, k 
 18G2-'63, but they soon became the instruments of reckless speculation. 
 The prominent bankers and merchants who testified before the commit- 
 tee were nearly unanimous in the opinion that there was no sufficient 
 reason for the existence of these institutions; that they were the 'source 
 of measureless evils, and ought to be destroyed. The testimony of 
 William E. Dodge, sr., expresses the opinion of the committee and of 
 many witnesses. He says in regard to the gold-room, (Evidence, pp. 186, 
 187 :) 
 
 My opini on is, that -without that organization it -would, have been utterly impossible to 
 have got up that panic. In the open market no such excitement can occur. In the gold- 
 room, gold — or, rather, the o-wnership of gold — changes hands at fictitious values; men 
 of almost no capital huy and sell gold, -which they do not, in reality, possess, merely 
 or purposes of speculation. There is no legitimate business about it, and the commerce 
 of the country is obliged to make settlements at the current rate of gold, according to 
 the. fictitious prices established by those gamblers. Unscrupulous and irresponsible 
 men, -without a hundred dollars in the world, either in gold or currency, buy and sell 
 to the extent of millions, at fictitious prices ; and every merchant in the United States 
 is at their mercy. The legitimate gold transactions are very large, but they bear no 
 kind of proportion to the amoimt that changes hands in the gold-room, solely as a mat- 
 ter of speculation. On a return to specie payments, there would be no necessity for a 
 gold-room or Gold Exchange Bank, in the regular course of commerce — not the least in 
 the world ; it might exist for a time as a mere gambling house, nothing else. Take 
 the gold-room out of the way, and the commerce in gold -wiU regulate itself. I look 
 upon the whole thing as a gambling operation. Such transactions ought to be Dlaoed 
 entirely outside the pale of commerce. The law ought to treat it as gambling xov that 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 19 
 
 IB -ivhat it is ; gambling in the very life-blood of the nation, in the currency of the 
 country, in Trhich every person throughout the land is interested. 
 
 It is proper to add, that the testimony of Mr. Hodgskin (Evidence, 
 page 25) gives the strongest points that have been presented in favor 
 of these institutions. 
 
 Second. The gold conspiracy has already been so fully exhibited that 
 but little more need be said. It is evident that the tendency of gold 
 was downward, and that the movement of the conspirators was wholly 
 artificial and unnatural, and that its effects were most disastrous to the 
 legitimate business of the country. It dealt a heavy blow to our credit 
 abroad by shaking the faith of foreign capitalists in the stability of our 
 trade and the honesty of our people. At home its effects extended far 
 beyond the circle of those who participated in it. One produced another, 
 and hundreds of firms engaged in legitimate business were wholly ruined 
 or seriously crippled. Importers of foreign goods were for many days 
 at the mercy of the gamblers, and suffered heavy losses. For many 
 weeks the business of the whole country was paralyzed-^a vast volume 
 of currency was drawn from the great channels of industry and held in 
 the grasp of the conspirators.' Hundreds of active, ambitious men were 
 lured from the honest pursuit of wealth by the delusive vision of sudden 
 fortune. 
 
 The effects of the panic are thus stated by Mr. George Opdyke, 
 (Evidence, p. 334 :) 
 
 It produced an impression on the mercantile and financial mind, not only in this 
 country but all over the world, that -we here are a set of gamblers, and that it is not 
 safe to enter into any contracts with us when it is possible for a small combination of 
 speculators to monopolize one branch of our cvirrency, the coin, which performs its 
 functions now as it did before the suspension of specie payments, so far as our foreign 
 trade is concerned. 
 
 This shook was so universal, not only in America but abroad, that our railroad and 
 other securities, which before that had been selling very freely on the continent, es- 
 pecially in Germany and Holland, have since found but little market abroad. 
 
 The foundations of business morality were rudely shaken, and the nu- 
 merous defalcations that shortly followed are clearly traceable to the mad 
 spirit engendered by speculation. Btit, however strongly we may con- 
 demn the conspirators themselves, we cannot lose sight of those causes 
 which lie behind the actors and spring from our financial condition. 
 The conspiracy and its baneful consequences must be set down as one 
 of the items in the great bill of costs which the nation is paying for the 
 support of its present financial machinery. For all purposes of internal 
 trade gold is not money, but an article of merchandise ; but for all 
 purposes of foreign commerce it is our only currency. 
 
 So long as we have two standards of value recognized by law, which 
 may be made to vary in respect to each other by artificial means, so 
 long will speculation in' the price of gold offer temptations too great to 
 be resisted, and so long may capital continue to be diverted from enter- 
 prises which add to the national wealth, and be used in this reckless 
 gambling which ruins the great majority of those who engage in it, and 
 
20 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATIOK. 
 
 endangers the business of the whole country. Not the least among tho 
 evils which grow out of the condition of our currency is the necessity which 
 makes the national government a dealer in gold. Whether the surplus 
 gold be hoarded or sold, it creates an artificial interference in the busi- 
 ness of the country, and devolves upon the offlcers who manage it most 
 delicate and difficult duties. 
 
 The committee iind that the custom adopted by some of the national 
 banks of certifying checks which do not represent cash deposits, and 
 which if presented immediately cannot be paid, is a dangerous and per- 
 nicious practice, and that the use of such checks greatly aided the con- 
 spirators. It is in evidence that one bank, the Tenth ll^Tational, certified 
 thirty-nine millions of dollars of checks in the course of two days, and 
 with all its cash reserve was unable to make settlement, and only by 
 large loans was saved from breaking. 
 
 Third. In regard to the relation of officers of the government to the 
 gold movement, the committee find that the wicked and cunningly de- 
 vised attempts of the conspirators to compromise the President of the 
 United States or his family utterly failed. 
 
 Mr. Oorbin, using the opportunities which his family relationship to 
 the President afforded, and under that worst form of hypocrisy which 
 puts on the guise of religion and patriotism, used aU his arts to learn 
 something from the private conversations of the President which could 
 be made profitable to him and his co-conspirators. But with this and 
 all the efforts of his associates, the testimony has not elicited a word or 
 an act of the President inconsistent with that patriotism and integrity 
 which befit the Chief Executive of the nation. 
 
 Even Mr. Gould, notwithstanding all his attempts to discover the 
 purposes and influence the opinions of the President, testifies as follows 
 (pp. 159:) 
 
 I am satisfied that the President has never had any connection, directly or indirectly 
 with any of these moTemonts that have been made. * * .^ » » , 
 
 Nothing ever occurred in any of these interviews that did not impress mo that tho 
 President was a very pure, high-minded man j that if he was satisfied what was the 
 best thing, that was what he would do. 
 
 Question. By the Chairman: Was there anything said or intimated at any of these 
 interviews to the President; or in the President's hearing, that -would have led him to 
 suppose any private purpose of speculation or gain was sought to be reached through 
 these interviews, so far as you know ? — Ansjver. No, sir. 
 
 The following letter to the Secretary of the Treasury exhibits both 
 ,the wisdom of the President's opinions and the prudence of his conduct 
 in reference to the gold movement : 
 
 New York City, September 12, 1869. 
 Deak Sm: I leave here for western Pennsylvania to-morrow morning, and will not 
 reach "Washington before the middle or last of next week. Had I known before making 
 my arrangements for starting that you would be in this city early this week, I would 
 have remained to meet you, I am satisfied that on your arrival you will be met bv 
 the bulls and bears of WaU street, and probably by merchants, too, to induce you to 
 sell gold, or pay the November interest in .advance, on ttie one side, and to hold fast ou 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 21 
 
 the other. The fact is, a desperate struggle is now taking place, and each party wants 
 the government to help them out. I write this letter to advise you of what I think 
 you may expect, to put you on your guard. 
 
 I think, from the lights heforo me, I would move on without change until the present 
 
 struggle is over. If you want to write me this week, my address will he Washington, 
 
 Pennsylvania. I would like to hear your experience with the factions, at all events, 
 
 if they give you time to write. No doubt you will have a better chance to judge than 
 
 , for I have avoided general discussion on the subject. 
 
 Yours, truly, U. S. GEANT. 
 
 Hon. George S. Boutwell, 
 
 Secretary of Treasury. 
 
 The message sent to Corbin, when his duplicity was first suspected, 
 and the final order, which laid the strong hand of the government upon 
 the conspirators and broke their power, are the most significant declara- 
 tions that the President held and treated them as enemies of the credit 
 and business of the country. 
 
 It is impossible to say whether the groundless and wicked charge, 
 that Mrs. Grant was interested in this speculation, originated with Pisk 
 or with Oorbin ; and the charge is only made on the hearsay testimony 
 of Mr. Fisk. He swears that Corbin told him that $500,000 of the gold 
 ' >at Gould was carrying for Corbin's account was for Mrs. Grant, and 
 that the $25,000 profit paid to Corbin by Gould had been forwarded to 
 Mrs. Grant. This statement is denied by Corbin, and unsupported by 
 Gould. The committee required Mr. Gould to produce the original 
 check for $25,000, and required Oorbin to show whp-t use he made of it. 
 The check was produced, and Corbinproducedthe account of the officers 
 of the Bank of America, showing that immediately on the receipt of the 
 "heck, Corbin paid it on a debt which he owed to the bank. Corbin 
 :^,-vears that he never sent or promised to send any money to Mrs. Grant 
 or to any of the President's family ; and that he never proposed to give 
 any of them any interest in this gold speculation. And Mr. Gould swears 
 that he did notbelieve that any member of the President's family had any 
 knowledge of this gold speculation. 
 
 The pretense of Mr. Fisk, that Horace Porter, private secretary of the 
 President, was interested in this speculation is utterly groundless. 
 
 Pisk admitted that he knew nothing on the subject except what 
 Gould and Corbin had told him. Corbin swears positively that he never 
 proposed to Mr. Porter to take any interest in their speculation, and 
 never told Pisk that Porter had any such interest. 
 
 Mr. Gould was asked if he knew of any officer of the government 
 who was interested in the gold movement, and, during a long and search- 
 ing examination, he not only gave no intimation that Mr. Porter was, in 
 any way, connected with it, but his testimony makes such a conclusion im- 
 possible. Moreover, it is in evidence that Gould once proposed to buy 
 gold for Mr. Porter, and received from that worthy officer a prompt and 
 merited rebuke. 
 
 In regard to General Butterfield, it appears from the evidence that, 
 during his administration, the affairs of the sub-treasury were managed 
 
22 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 ■n-ith vigor and iatelligence, and all tlie public funds intrusted to his 
 charge were faithfully accounted for. 
 
 It is not conclusively proved that he was interested with the conspir- 
 ators in raising the price of gold ; though on this point the testimony is 
 conflicting. Mr. Gould swears positively that he bought two lots of 
 gold for General Butterfleld, amounting in all to $1,500,000, and on 
 cross-examination details the conversation that occurred between them 
 when the order was given. General Butterfleld, under oath, denies this 
 statement. He admits that Gould proposed to buy gold for him, but 
 says he made no response either of assent or dissent. 
 
 Both Fisli and Gould swear that they received messages from But- 
 terfleld, and answers to messages which they sent him during the days 
 of the panic, in reference to news from Washington, and this statement 
 receives some support from the testimony of JKobert P. Brown, a mes- 
 senger of the sub-treasury. General Butterfleld swears that he 
 answered all inquiries sent to him, but sent no other messages to these 
 men. But it is proved by the testimony that during the days of the 
 panic two firms of brokers, not acting for the conspirators, sold gold on 
 General Butterfleld's order and for his profit, and that during his 
 whole ter;a of office he was dealing in United States bonds on his own 
 account. Early in the week of the panic he sent for Joseph Seligman, 
 a i)rominent broker, to come to the sub-treasury ; told him he thought 
 that the treasury would interfere, and that the price would come down, 
 and gave him orders to sell. During the 22d, 23d, and 24th of Septem- 
 ber, while the panic was reaching its crisis, Seligman sold on this order 
 $700,000, on which General Butterfleld made a net proflt of $35,000. 
 Morton & Oo. also bought bonds and sold gold for General Butterfleld 
 while he was in the sub-treasury ; and other flrms bought bonds for him. 
 
 The explanation of General Butterfleld that the gold sold for him 
 was not really speculation in gold, but an incident to dealing in bonds 
 on a gold basis, does not, in the opinion of the committee, change the 
 real nature of the transaction. And if it did, it is in evidence that his 
 sale of gold through Seligman was made independently of the purchase 
 of bonds,' which had been bought before, and the profits on which were 
 used as a margin for the sale of gold. 
 
 It does not appear from the testimony that General Butterfleld dis- 
 closed the dispatches of the Secretary before making them public ; but 
 it is in evidence that during the last day of the panic he received im- 
 portant dispatches from the Secretary, and sent several to him, in which 
 he exhibited the state of affairs in the gold market. Before the'break 
 in the market he sent the following dispatch : 
 
 Franklin Tblege.\jh Company, September 24, 1869. 
 I am requested to represent to you condition of affairs here. Gold is 150. Much feeling 
 and accusations of government complicity. The propositions of Weatherspoon, Duncan, 
 Sherman & Co., and Seligman, if accepted, would relieve exchange market and be judi- 
 cious. Should be done hy telegraph. 
 
 DAN'L BUTTEEFIELD. 
 George S. Boutwell. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 23 
 
 The proposition referred to ia this letter will be seen in the letter 
 of Duncan, Sherman & Co., the writing of which was suggested by Gen- 
 eral Butterfield himself, and was that the government should loan gold 
 to certain banking-houses, and thus relieve the market and bring down 
 the price. 
 
 While giving this advice, and while holding, next to the Secretary 
 of the Treasury, the most important financial trust confided to any 
 officer of the United States, General Butterfield knew that whenever 
 the price of gold was pushed down one cent by the action of the treas- 
 ury, it would make him a profit of $7,000 dollars on his sales through 
 Seligman alone. In a letter to Secretary Boutwell, of October 22, 1866, 
 (which is made a part of the evidence,) General Butterfield writes as 
 follows: "The charge that I have used my private means in speculat- 
 iag in gold, or authorized others to do so, is whoUy false." 
 
 When asked by the committee whether he knew of any officer of the 
 United States who was directly or indirectly interested in gold, he an- 
 swered unqualifiedly in the negative. But when ^afterward confronted 
 with the testimony of Joseph Seligman concerning his purchases of gold, 
 he admitted that it was true. (See Seligman's testimony, pp. 238, 239.) 
 In conclusion, the committee beg leave to call attention to the valu- 
 able facts and suggestions on the financial situation of the country in 
 relation to gold and currency, as given incidentally in the testimony of 
 Messrs. Low, Opdyke, Dodge, Schell, Vermilya, Stewart, and Hodgskin, 
 the consideration of Avhich cannot properly form a part of this report. 
 
 JAMES A. GAEFIBLD. 
 
 JOHN LYB^OH. 
 
 NOEMAH B. JUDD. 
 
 JOHN OOBUEK. 
 
 WOETHINGTON C. SMITH. 
 
 JOHN B. PACKEE. 
 
 ISEABL G. LASH. 
 
 HOEATIO C. BUECHAED. 
 The committee recommend th« adoption of the following resolutions : 
 Resolved, That the Committee of Ways and Means be instructed to 
 inquire into the expediency of reporting a bill to levy such a tax on 
 such transactions as those of the Gold Exchange and Gold Exchange 
 clearing-house, as, in their judgment, the interests of the country shall 
 require. 
 
 Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary be instructed to in- 
 quire into the expediency of reporting a bill to define and punish con- 
 spiracy against the credit of the United States and the business of its 
 people. 
 
 Resolved, That the Committee on Banking and Currency be instructed 
 to inquire whether any further legislation is necessary, to prevent the 
 improper use of certified checks by the national banks, and that they 
 have leave to report by bill or otherwise. 
 
TESTIMONY. 
 
 WashinCtTOW, January 15, 1870. 
 
 James B. Hodgskin sworn and examined. 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Question. Please state your place of residence and occupation. — An- 
 swer. My business is broker and banker at 14 Broad street, JN^ew York. 
 I have been in that business about four years. 
 
 Q. State whether you are a member of the Gold Exchange ; and if so, 
 what is your position in that body ? — ^A. I am a member of the Gold Ex- 
 change. I am an of&cer of the executive committee, and also chairman 
 of the arbitration committee. 
 
 Q. State the class of business you are doing as a broker. — A. I buy 
 and sell stocks, gold, government bonds, and foreign exchange. 
 
 Q. Please state, in your own way, the history and character of the 
 Gold Exchange, giving its origin, nature of its business, its mode of con- 
 ducting business, and the general amount of its transactions. — A. I 
 think I ought to begin by stating that no understanding of the nature 
 of the business, especially of the Gold Board, can be arrived at by any 
 man not directly familiar with it, unless we begin by disposing of the 
 idea that its busines is all speculative. That is a perfect mistake. The 
 great bulk of the business of the Gold Board is absolutely and fairly a 
 legitimate business, just as essential and unavoidable as the. business 
 done at the Produce Exchange. The whole foreign business of the coun 
 try absolutely requires, so long as we have a fluctuating paper currency, 
 that there should be some exchange where the transactions of the whole 
 foreign importing and exporting trade can at all times be promptly 
 liquidated, and transfers made from gold into currency, and from cur- 
 rency into gold. That can be done only by buying and selling gold at 
 all times. There are occasious, of course, when the legitimate business 
 of the gold-room has been frightfully perverted, as you know, by the 
 wildest speculations ; but the business of the room is, in the main, 
 legitimate and necessary, and these frightful speculations are always 
 brought about by men who take advantage of legitimate business to the 
 great injury of the merchants, respectable bankers, and the people en- 
 gaged in legitimate trade. That is exactly what this last gold specula- 
 tion did. I might go on and state that when you read these fabulous 
 transactions at the gold-room, as they appear in the papers, you are 
 drawn into another element of confusion. The daily statements of the 
 business done in the gold-room comprise the amount of gold transac- ■ 
 tions which are cleared through the bank. Each transaction is quoted 
 doubly, because the bank reports for every transaction — both the sale 
 and the purchase. If I sell a million dollars of gold, I report it to the 
 bank as sold, and the person buying reports it to the bank as bought. 
 Therefore each amount is stated twice over in the report. In the next 
 place, the largest amount of business done at the Gold Exchange is done 
 on time. That is to say, I make a contract to sell a mUlion of gold to- 
 day. I have not the gold to deliver, and may not have it for some days ; 
 
26 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 but, as I have sold, I must deliver it, and for that purpose have to bor- 
 row it. When I borrow the gold, that transaction is reported in the 
 clearing-house, both by the party who is the borrower and the party j,. 
 who is the lender. But it appears again in this way. I borrow gold 
 to deliver to-day, not knowing when I may get it. Each day I have to 
 renew that loan, and each day the clearing-house reports that miUion 
 of dollars as borrowed and as loaned, so that you can understand that 
 the original transaction of selling a million dollars of gold will be first ^ 
 reported as four millions in the clearing-house, and the same million » 
 dollars may be reported over again every day for a month as borrowed 
 and loaned. That is the way in which the fabulous amount of business 
 which appears in the reports as having been transacted is made up. 
 
 The ordinary business of the Exchange involves the purchase or sale 
 of gold sufficient to provide for every dollar of foreign goods imported 
 at all the ports, amounting to about one miUion and a quarter a day. 
 It involves about the same amount of transactions for the goods exported 
 from all parts of the country. It has also to provide for the now enormous 
 transactions in government bonds, State bonds, and railroad bonds, ex- 
 ported from and imported into the country, all of which have to be 
 settled by gold transactions in the nature of exchange. It is well known 
 that the export of government bonds alone during the past year has 
 averaged about a million a day. Add to this the State bonds and rail- 
 road bonds, and you have perhaps half a million a day more. The 
 whole gold product of the country averages about seventy millions of 
 dollars per annum, the bulk of which is sent abroad. We are also in 
 receipt from abroad, according to different estimates, of from twenty- 
 five to forty millions doUars in gold, brought here by emigrants and 
 other travelers, and that which is brought from the West Indies, and 
 from all parts of South America and Central America for goods pur- : 
 chased here, and which comes in small lots by merchant steamers and > 
 sailing- vessels, all of which has to be settled through the Gold Exchange. 
 My estimate is that the legitimate inevitable transactions at the Gold , 
 Exchange, in the present condition of theforeign trade, are not less than j 
 from five to eight millions a day, and multiplied, as these transactions 
 are in the reports, as I have stated, the amount appears to the public 
 as between forty and fifty millions a day. 
 
 It is easy to understand in a general way that so long as the people 
 of the United States persist in transacting their business in a currency 
 which bears no direct and established relation to the currency in use , 
 anywhere else, just so long will they absolutely require a gold-room, or 
 some similar establishment, in which their transactions with the outer 
 world can be translated from the vicious, fluctuating, unsettled, local, 
 greenback currency into the sound, stable, international, gold currency, / 
 which alone is recognized in all other parts of the world. But it is not 
 quite so easy to understand, or indeed to explain, in few words, the 
 precise practical working of these transactions. With the permission 
 of the committee I would like, therefore, to read a more elaborate expla- 
 nation of these transactions, which I prepared some time ago for publi- 
 cation : ,. 
 
 "The cotton croj), our largest export staple, is now going forward. ' 
 Its value in round figures, say 3,000,000 bales, at ^100 a bale, is three 
 hundred millions ($300,000,000) of dollars. Of this about one-third is 
 worked up in our home factories, and two-thirds, say to the value of 
 two hundred millions of dollars, are exported. The process of export- 
 ing this cotton is practically as follows : 
 
 *' The Liverpool cotton merchant telegraphs to the Kew York commis- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 27 
 
 ' mission house : ' If you can buy one thousand bales of middling cotton 
 
 [ so as not to cost me more than ten-pence, or twenty cents, gold, per 
 
 I pound, laid down here in Liverpool, you can do so.' The commission 
 
 merchant finds that the Irfeight, insurance, and other charges will 
 
 ' amount to about two cents. He can, therefore, afford to give eighteen 
 
 I cents, gold, for the cotton itself. He goes into the cotton market and 
 
 ' inquires the price of cotton per pound in gold. The dealer answers 
 
 ' that cotton is sold for currencj^ not for gold. The planters at the South 
 
 ' have to pay their laborers in currency ; they buy their provisions, their 
 
 ' agricultural implements, and their manures for currency ; they owe 
 
 ' their debts in currency ; they can tell what their cotton costs them in 
 
 , currency, and they don't want to sell it except for currency. Th^ com- 
 
 ' mission merchant telegraphs to Charleston, Savannah, Mobile, New 
 
 '• Orleans. Prom all these places he gets the same answer : Middling 
 
 ' cotton is selling for about twenty-seven cents a pound in currency ; no 
 
 ' price can be given in gold. Finding that he cannot buy the cotton for 
 
 ' gold, but knowing that he is authorized to pay eighteen cents gold per 
 
 ' pound, he next proceeds to the gold-room to ascertain the price of gold, 
 
 ' so as to know how much, in cm'rency, he can afford to pay for the cot- 
 
 ' ton without exceeding the orders of his Liverpool correspondent. He 
 
 I finds gold selling at 150 ; in other words, his eighteen cents gold are 
 
 ■ worth exactly twenty-seven cents in currency, per pound, for his 
 
 ' middling cotton, without exceeding his correspondent's orders. Now, if 
 
 ' business were all as simple as some people imagine, the proceeding of 
 
 ' the commission merchant would be simple enough. He would only 
 
 [ have to take as much gold as would pay for the thousand bales of cot- 
 
 ' ton, to sell it at 150, and with the currency pay the cotton dealer, and 
 
 I the whole transaction would be concluded. But, to begin with, he has 
 
 not got the gold. The Liverpool cotton merchant did not send the gold 
 
 ' to pay for the cotton ; and if he had sent it, it would not arrive for 
 
 ;' some time, as the order came by the Atlantic cable, which is not yet 
 
 arranged for the transportation of specie. The way in which the I^ew 
 
 York commission merchant expects to get the necessary gold is this : 
 
 He receives the order by cable on Monday, and concludes the purchase 
 
 of the cotton the same day. He then has to engage a vessel to take the 
 
 cotton to Liverpool, the arrangements for which occupy the next day. 
 
 On Thursday or Friday the vessel is ready to take her cargo on board, 
 
 a process which is perhaps completed by next Monday. The captain of 
 
 the vessel signs the receipt for the cotton on a document called a bill of 
 
 lading ; the merchant makes out a bill for the amount of the cotton at 
 
 the price in gold which his Liverpool- correspondent authorized him to 
 
 pay, attaches the bill of lading to it as evidence that the cotton has 
 
 been shipped, and takes the bill to one of the foreign banking houses, 
 
 like Belmont's or Brown Brothers', who thereupon pay him in gold the 
 
 amount of the bill, less a small commission for forwarding the biU and 
 
 collecting it from the merchant in Liverpool. Two or three days are 
 
 lost in negotiating and settling with the banker, so that at least ten or 
 
 twelve days elapse between the time of contracting for the cotton and 
 
 obtaining the gold to pay for it. With this gold the merchant goes to 
 
 the gold-room in order to seH it at 150, and obtain the currency to pay 
 
 for the cotton. To his disappointment he finds that 'gold has fallen to 
 
 145, and that instead of getting twenty-seven cents currency for the 
 
 eighteen cents gold, which his Liverpool correspondent authorized him 
 
 to pay for the cotton, he only gets twenty-six cents currency, while he 
 
 has actually bought the cotton and agreed to pay twenty-seven cents 
 
 for it. In other words he has lost one cent on every pound of cotton 
 
28 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 purchased, or $5,000 on the thousand bales. It is very true that it 
 might have been the other way. The market might have gone up five 
 per cent., instead of down, and then the merchant would have gained 
 $5,000 instead of losing. But that is not what he wants. He does not 
 want to speculate on the market— to gamble. His is legitimate bua- 
 ness. All he wants is to convert his gold into currency so as to pay 
 for the cotton he has bought. He wanted to buy his cotton for gold, in 
 accordance with his orders, but the owners would not sell to him for 
 gold. They compelled him to buy currency, and in doing so compeMep 
 him to run the risk of all the fluctuations of the gold market from the 
 time he purchased the cotton until the day when he sold his bill. Not, 
 this is a risk which no priident busiuess man will run, or, indeed, can 
 run, without degenerating into a mere gambler. But the risk is forced 
 upon the business community by the existence of our present currency, 
 Of course the risk is evaded. Unless it could be evaded there would 
 be a total stoppage of all foreign trade, as was the case dui lag the great 
 September panic in the gold-room. But it was the attempt to evade 
 this improper risk, forced upon the business community by our mmatn- 
 ral currency, that delivered the merchants, bound hand and foot, into 
 the arms of the desperate clique of gamblers and cheats, who made 
 havoc of Wall street in September last. 
 
 " We have supposed that gold was 150 on the day when the commis- 
 sion merchant executed his Liverpool correspondent's order for a thou- 
 sand bales of cotton, and that, if he had had the gold at that moment, 
 he could have sold it at 160 and thus evaded the risk of all future fluc- 
 tuations of the market. He did not have the gold then, but he knew 
 he would receive it in ten days or a fortnight. What was to prevent 
 him from borrowing the gold, selling it at once at 150, and then returii- 
 ing it as soon as hfe had sold his bill on the Liverpool cotton merchant 
 and obtained his own gold? There was nothing to prevent him, and, 
 indeed, the bulk of the export of the country has for years past been 
 conducted oh the same basis. 
 
 " The merchant who expects to receive gold to-morrow, next week, 
 month, six months, or a year hence, for goods which he exports to-day, 
 borrows the gold and sells it immediately, in order to avoid all risl 
 from the fluctuations of the premium. This is the reason why so manj 
 merchants are borrowers of gold, and why it was in the power of the 
 gold clique to inflict so much injury upon business." 
 
 I have stated what makes the apparently large amount of businesi 
 in the room, and what is the real amount of legitimate business whicli 
 the merchants cannot get along without. I now want to explain more 
 fully why the fact of the merchants having to borrow gold, as I have 
 just explained, exposes them to the terrible losses which these specula-, 
 tive gamblers may inflict upon them. The practice of borrowing gold 
 is this : The borrower receives from the lender, say one hundred thou- 
 sand dollars in gold, and has to give him, as security for that gold, the 
 market price of it in currency on the day the loan is made. That is, 
 gold being 125 to-day, I, borrowing a hundred thousand in gold, deposit 
 with the lender $125,000 in currency as security. As soon as I return 
 him the gold he retm'ns me the currency. But if, at any time after! 
 have borrowed the gold, the price of gold rises in the market, I am a! 
 once obliged to dejjosit with the lender as much more currency as gold 
 is worth more by its rise in the market. The additional amount of cur- 
 rency which I pfiy to bring up the deposit to the market price is called, 
 in Wall street parlance, a "margin." For instance, having borrowed at 
 125, and the price having subsequently risen to 130, the lender calls 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 29 
 
 I upon me for five per cent, more margin, and this is the meaning of the 
 ' term used in Wall street, " calling up margins," or " marking up gold." 
 ' When these conspirators began to hay gold the price *was about 131 
 i or 132. They bought a large amount of it, of course lending it in the 
 I ordinary course of business to merchants who^ had to borrow. After 
 that they continued to buy gold, and to spread the report about of their 
 i ability to control the market, and about the extent to which government 
 'official^ were mixed up with them; and they frightened a great many 
 'people into buying gold and thereby assisting them in advancing the 
 1 price. As the price advanced they called upon the merchants to whom 
 I they had loaned gold for their additional margin, as they were entitled to 
 i do ; and the more gold they bought the more the price advanced, and 
 i the larger became the amount of currency in the shape of margins, 
 i which came in to them without selling a dollar of gold on their part. 
 ' The committee will understand by this statement h&w these men were 
 ! enabled to possess themselves of an enormous amount of currency with- 
 ' out selling a dollar of the gold they had bought. As the price went up 
 : day by day, they called upon the merchants for their margins. 
 
 By -Mr. Cobtjen: 
 Q. Had they any right to call for these additional deposits every 
 I day"? — A. Certainly; and every hour in the day. If gold is 135 
 in the morning and goes up to 136 an hour after, the lender has a right 
 ito call for the additional percentage of margin. This explaina how 
 these men were enabled to go on buying all the time; and by this means 
 they were enabled to reap a profit from the merchants to whom they 
 loaned gold, just the same as if they had actually sold the gold. And 
 when gold went up to 160 they were possessed of all the currency which 
 their gold would have given them if they had sold it out at 160. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 ' Q. But when gold began to decline the' rule worked the other 
 way, did it not ? — A. Yes ; the merchants then called upon them to 
 ireturn their currency. But in the case of this gold panic these men 
 ■were all prepared with injunctions by the courts of E"ew York, prohibit- 
 ing them from giving up the currency. 
 
 By Mr. Cobtjen : 
 
 Q. How could these injunctions be prepared in advance? — ^A. I 
 am not familiar with the machinery of this matter, but within a 
 very short time after gold began to drop, every one of the brokers who 
 were known as the brokers of the clique was enjoined, by different 
 orders of different courts in New York, from paying out any money to 
 anybody or in any amount. 
 
 Q. But previously to that there had already been a considerable drop- 
 ping of gold, had there not? — ^A. Yes; butduringthattimeso great was 
 the confusion in the street that men were not disposed to insist upon 
 their rights to demand the return of currency imnjediately. I wUl now 
 proceed in my statement of the workings of the Gold Exchange Bank, 
 and endeavor to explain another point upon which a great misunder- 
 standing exists in the public mind. The Gold Exchange Bank is just as 
 much a necessity as the Gold Board itself. It has not existed quite so 
 long as the gold-room, because its necessity was not felt untU after the 
 establishment of the gold-room. Up to the time of the establishment 
 of the Gold Exchange Bank everybody who sold gold for legitimate 
 business, or otherwise, was obliged to take gold in his hands and deliver 
 it to the person he had sold it to, and take a check for it. Now, the gold 
 
30 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 in the country, and more particularly the amount of gold at the~disposaI 
 of merchants and bankers in New. York, is, comparatively speaking, 
 small ; but the»delivery of a certain amount of gold, by counting it, or 
 by making out a check in payment of it, involves a certain amount of 
 time, and it was found that people who had a large business to transact, 
 such as the large foreign bankers, absolutely could not press the amount 
 of business they desired to transact into the business hours of the day. 
 The process of receiving and delivering the large amounts involved sacli 
 an extraordinary amount of time and so many clerks that it practically 
 could not be done, and day after day the deliveries were delayed until 
 late in the day, during every day in the week, until people became unable 
 to comply with their contracts. The most responsible houses in New 
 York were frequently unable to meet their engagements, and seemingly, 
 though of course not really, insolvent, because they absolutely could not 
 get the gold involved in their transactions fast enough to pay it out as 
 their contracts required. Great risk was also incurred in the transportar 
 tion of these large amounts in coin, or in the delivery of certificates,, 
 which were made payable to bearer, and for months it was not too mucli 
 to say that scarcely a week, and frequently not a day, would elapse without 
 some messenger being knocked down and robbed, or without some mes- 
 senger or clerk running away with gold or gold certificates. The tempta- 
 tion was too great. The facilities for getting away with actual money 
 ^ ere so large that the temptation proved irresistible for weak men. The 
 merchants and brokers of New York found that this whole business would 
 come to a dead lock and be exposed to frightful risks, expensive delays, 
 and lead to interminable confusion, unless some remedy was applied by 
 which all parties could meet at some one place and each pay over or 
 receive the money due as it might be from one to the other, just precisely 
 as the same business is done by the banks in New York, who found it 
 impossible to take every check handed them on every bank and get the 
 money for it, but established a clearing-house, where they all meet, and 
 a general statement is made out, exhibiting how much each bank owes 
 each other bank, and often showing in their very large transactions 
 only a small balance due to one or the other. The New York Gold Ex*? 
 change Bank is to the gold 'business of New York precisely what the' 
 clearing-house is to the entire currency business of the country, and the 
 latter could just as little be carried on without this machinery for clearing 
 as the former. The Gold Exchange Bank, of New York, is nothing more 
 than an institution where dealers in gold come and present their state- 
 ments with all the other dealers, and the general settlement is made of 
 all the accounts of each day, instead of there being a separate delivery 
 of each transaction; the bank makes up its general statement, and 
 divides up the balance among the different parties to whom it belongs. 
 In that way theynotonly save the necessity of making separate deliveries 
 for each transaction, but the small balance due is not necessarily taken 
 out of the bank at all, so that actual deliveries of gold are done away 
 with, except to a very limited extent, and the business formerly requiring 
 six or eight hours, and which was attended with great risks, is now 
 done in one hour and a half and with no risk whatever. 
 
 When the legal-tender act was first adopted, in 1862, gold at once 
 became worth a small premium; the New York banks and the banks 
 throughout the country had suspended specie payment ; no one was 
 obliged to pay any debt contracted in gold ; the gold seemed to disap- 
 pear &om the market, and no one could get it when wanted, except by 
 going to the foreign houses, who always kept it on hand ; many people 
 began to have the idea that gold would probably go up to a high pre- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 31 
 
 mium, and if they had gold on hand would decline to sell it, unless they 
 could make something by it. For some time after the legal-tender act 
 was passed, gold was furnished by these foreign houses, and by some of 
 the banks, at a merely nominal premium ; bat, as gradually the war 
 extended, and the export demand for gold threatened to become large, 
 the owners of it were no longer willing to sell at this nominal premium. 
 Not only was there fear of a demand for export, bat people throughout 
 the country, who were in doubt as to what depreciation might take place 
 in the currency, bought large amounts of gold and hoarded it. There 
 were thousands of people in the country possessed of wealth, who did 
 not know whether, if they took greenbacks, they were ultimately to be 
 worth anything. They had heard so much about the French < ' assignats," 
 and the Austrian and Eussian failures, that they were fearful lest the 
 United States legal-tender currency would go in the same way ; and in 
 order to make sure of a little something, they bought gold and hid it 
 away, and it was largely on account of this, although a great many 
 never could understand why gold was at a premium, and attributed the 
 advance merely to the influence of persons unfriendly to the government, 
 or to the war, that gold steadily and rapidly advanced. The heavy 
 premium on gold was the consequence almost solely of the hoarding of 
 it by timid people. I have in my possession tables which I think are 
 indisputable — at any rate, which have often been published and never 
 been disputed — shpwing that the amount of gold hoarded in the United 
 States, between November, 1861, and the first of December, 1862, was 
 over eighty-seven millions of dollars, besides the whole amount that was 
 in the hands and pockets of the people on the first-mentioned date. 
 
 As the premium went up, for the causes I have mentioned, it of course 
 began to attract the attention of illicit speculators. There never was 
 anything more erroneous than the belief that the establishment of the 
 gold-room caused this illicit speculation. . There was no speculation in 
 gold until gold began to go up and people began to see that they could 
 buy gold and sell it out at a profit. When the dealings in gold began to 
 be large the bulk of the business fell naturally into the hands of the 
 large bullion dealers in New York, who had been always buying and 
 selling foreign coin brought here, and buying and selling gold bars of 
 our own domestic production. Gradually the dealings became so large 
 that in front of the ofBices of two or three of these principal bullion deal- 
 ers so great a crowd of people collected as to obstruct the streets, and 
 the police commissioners of New York passed a resolution, some time 
 in the summer of 1862, detailing squads of police oflcers to keep the 
 sidewalks of Wall and William streets. New York, clear, they having 
 become entirely impassable owing to these crowds. Up to this time 
 most of the dealings in gold were comparatively small in amount. The 
 brokers were principally insignificant people who had nothing else to 
 do. Finding themselves driven away from the sidewalk, they gathered 
 in a small room in a restaurant, near by. After a while transactions 
 became so large that it became necessary to rent a larger room ; but so 
 many were the delays, disputes, troubles, and quarrels arising out of 
 the transactions in this room, and so large had the business become, 
 that a number of bankers and large bullion dealers recognized the im- 
 portance of having their purchases and sales made in some recognized 
 plactf, and of appointing some of their own confidential clerks to go and 
 attend. And then this New York Gold Exchange was founded. The 
 organization was in a very loose and informal way, by thirty or forty 
 of these men meeting together and agreeing that they would rent a lit- 
 tle hall, fit it up with some chairs, and allow any respectable man who 
 
32 GOLB PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 chose to pay $100 a year to come in and buy knd seU gold. This was 
 some time late in the fall of 1862. In the spring of 1863 the business 
 had become so large that it was found necessary to perfect a more regu- 
 lar organization, and these men got together, adopted a constitution, 
 and incorporated themselves. Under that constitution, which was very 
 carefully and prudently drawn, the business has since been carried on, 
 and under it the organization is now existing.. All these transactions 
 are carried on in accordance with the strictest rules, and, until recently, 
 with the utmost good faith. The organization has no regular charter. 
 It was urged by many that a charter should be obtained, but it was 
 feared at the time, on account of the great and unreasonable prejudice 
 existing against dealings in gold, and the belief by the great mass of 
 the people that that business was carried on exclusively by the enemies 
 of the country, that they might not get a charter, and that some action 
 might be taken which would prevent them &om incorporating them- 
 selves. Hence, we are bound together only by a compact, which every 
 one who enters into the association is obliged to sign, under which he 
 engages to transact all his business in accordance with the regulations 
 of the board, and to submit all matters of dispute to, and abide by the 
 decision of, what is called a committee of arbitration, upon the penalty 
 of losing his seat in the board. I would furthermore say that I doubt 
 whether there is anywhere in the world any body of the same number 
 of members that the G-old Board has that represents a larger amount of 
 capital or business intelligence, or' a larger amount of high character 
 and general fair dealing. The gold-room is often a scene of confusion 
 and play, from the fact that there are hours of the day when, owing to 
 various circumstances, very little business is transacted ; when the large 
 houses are only represented by clerks, frequently by boys, whose only 
 duty is to be there, and, in case any great change should arise, to notify 
 their principals, and also to attend to any small transactions that may 
 be required. Gentlemen who have heard of the scenes transpiriug there 
 can understand precisely how boys, who have nothing to do, sometimes 
 for four or five hours in the day, will make a good deal of fun and mis- 
 chief, and how it is that serious men who are obliged to stay there, with 
 Mttle to do, will sometimes join in the laugh. The Gold Board numbers 
 about four hundred and fifty members, including, almost without excep- 
 tion, every leading foreign banker in New York, and also the leading 
 bankers of the United States, both domestic and foreign. It iacludes, 
 also, almost all of the highest class of our foreign and domestic mer- 
 chants, who do not, perhaps, habitually transact their business them- 
 selves, but have it transacted through brokers, yet who are members of 
 the Exchange in order to have the privilege of being there, going ta and 
 out, and, if they choose, transacting business themselves. 
 
 Q. Can you state what amount of capital the members of that Exchange 
 represent? — A. I cannot ; but, as I have stated, they include most of the 
 largest mercantile and banking houses in New York. I make this state- 
 ment because, however it may be understood by this committee, it is not 
 generally understood by the mass of the community that this Gold Ex- 
 change comprises a larger amount of wealth, character, responsibility, 
 and honofrable, fair dealing than any other organization with which I am 
 acquainted anywhere in the world. And it does business involving 
 hundreds of millions of dollars, without the first shred of paper, upon 
 the good faith and simple word of its members. No written contracts 
 pass between its members. AU is done with the knowledge that the 
 bulk of its verbal contracts could not be enforced in a court of law. 
 And yet, untU a quite recent time, there has never been a case where a 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 33 
 
 member of that exchange has repudiated a contract for five dollars, or 
 for any other sum. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 Q. What do you mean by contracts which cannot be enforced by law ? 
 —A. Most of the contracts made by the gold exchange could not, at 
 least until lately, be enforced in law. There was a law, in the first place, 
 which absolutely prohibited buying and selling gold for a premium, but 
 which was afterward repealed. In the second place, there was a law, 
 which I believe is still upon the statute book, which forbids the lending 
 of currency upon gold security, except at par. Besides, the.legal-tender 
 act itself riiakes every contract for gold payable in greenbacks. At any 
 rate, it has not until recently been supposed that it was possible to 
 enforce in the courts any contract made in the gold-room; but, in the 
 face of this, as I have stated, until recently every contract made in the 
 gold-room has been complied with in good faith. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Q. You gave during your general statement an explanation of some of 
 the terms used in gold transactions. Please explain precisely the tech- 
 nical meaning of "long" and "short," as used in Wall street? — ^A. 
 A person who has gold is said to be "long," and the broker or 
 dealer who has gold on hand, whether in large or small amounts, is 
 said to be " long," to that extent. I could not give you the origin of 
 the expression ; it has been in use in the stock exchange for twenty 
 years. Any one who has sold gold which he does not possess, but ex- 
 pects to get, is said to be " short." If I to-day sell a hundred thousand 
 dollars of gold, which I have not got, but expect to get in some way, 1 
 am said to be a hundred thousand dollars " short." 
 
 Q. Please explain the character of the duties of the arbitration com- 
 mittee, of which you are chairman. — ^A, I have been chairman of that 
 committee only during the last few months, covering, however, the gold 
 panic of September. The duties of the arbitration committee are sim- 
 ply to take cognizance of, and exercise jurisdiction over, all matters of 
 dispute between members of the board arising out of any of their con- 
 tracts. Members are obliged to bring any dispute which they cannot 
 settle amicably before the arbitration committee for its decision ; and 
 they are obliged to abide by that decision. 
 
 Q. Does your committee sit in the character of a court ? — ^A. To some 
 extent. 
 
 Q. Administer oaths, and take testimony ? — A. Tes, sir, 
 
 Q. State to the committee whether any action has been taken by 
 your committee touching the recent gold panic ; and if so, what has 
 been its general character? — A. Yes, sir; the committee has necessa- 
 rily had before it a great many disputes arising out of the panic in 
 September ; and in examining into the facts connected with those dis- 
 putes so as to settle the same, I have, of course, become possessed of a 
 large amount of evidence relating to the matter. 
 
 Q. Have you had before you as witnesses a large number of persons 
 connected with the' panic ? — A. Yes; sir. 
 
 Q. Was it shown before your committee that any considerable num- 
 ber of persons concerned in it refused to make their settlements ? — ^A. 
 Yes, sir ; a very large number. 
 
 Q. What class of men refused, the buyers, or the sellers ? — A. Both. 
 
 Q. From your ofdcial position in the Gold Board, as chairman of this 
 arbitration committee, and having had before you the testimony of a 
 large number of persons concerned in the gold panic of the 23d and 
 R TfATi SI s 
 
34 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 24th of SepteiBber, and from your expert knowledge as a practical bro- 
 ker, as well as your general personal knowledge on this subject, please 
 state to the committee what is your understanding of the origin, pro- 
 gress, and results of that movement, its connection with the gold-room, 
 and the Gold Exchange Bank, giving the history in chronological or- 
 der.— A. With the permission of the committee, I will proceed to state, 
 as clearly and in as connected a manner as possible, the history of the 
 gold panic, and its causes so far as I understand them, and will try to 
 state as far as possible the sources of my information— whether the 
 facts come to me from evidence taken before the committee, or by hear- 
 say only. 
 
 Early in the sprmg of 1869 the price of gold was lower than it had 
 been for a long time previously. The merchandise exports of the coua- 
 try had been larger and of greater value than had been anticipated. 
 The amount of bonds of the United States government, and of States 
 and corporations, sent to Europe, had likewise been large ; and the so- 
 called balance of trade against the country was judged by experts and 
 merchants to be less than it had been for many years previous. The 
 probability therefore was that no large exports of coin would take place 
 during the summer of 1869 ; and these facts caused the price of gold to 
 decline to the neighborhood of 130. The merchants and bankers were 
 all anticipating continued large shipments of merchandise and securities 
 to Europe during the summer of that year, and were therefore in expect- 
 ation of having a large amount of gold to sell during the summer, 
 against these shipments of merchandise and securities. The conse- 
 quence was that during the summer months the great mercantile and 
 financial interests of New York were at all times what is technically 
 called " short" of gold ; that is, they had sold gold which they did not 
 expect to get until they had sent the bonds, securities, and merchandise 
 to Europe, which they knew, or anticipated, they would have orders for. 
 During the summer months, three or four attempts were made by differ- 
 ent persons, whom I do not know, to put np the price of gold by spread- 
 ing reports which should induce these merchants and bankers to stop 
 sending bonds to Europe, and buy back at an advanced price the gold 
 which they had sold. These efforts were mainly unsuccessful. They 
 succeeded in putting up gold two or three times to the neighborhood of 
 135 or 136, never much above that. The price of gold, during the entire 
 summer, ranged from 130 to 136 or 137. I have said that the mercan- 
 tile and financial people of New York expected that large shipments of 
 merchandise and gold would be sent to Europe during the summer and 
 fall. They could not send it all at once, nor could they send it to all 
 points at once, because the transactions were too large. But they had 
 advices from their correspondents on the other side that the disposition 
 of the people of Europe was to buy large amounts of American bonds. 
 When American bonds are sent abroad they are paid for abroad in gold, 
 which gold is brought here and sold to pay for them. That is to say, 
 the bonds are paid for here in currency, sent to Europe, and paid for 
 there in gold. The banker here has gold to sell, when he sends bonds 
 to Europe, although he does not actually bring the gold from there, be- 
 cause, except in exceptional cases, the current of gold is from here to 
 Europe. But, by whatever process the exchange is made, the bonds 
 are paid for in gold there, and in currency here. Knowing that these 
 transactions were to take place, nearly all the merchants and bankers 
 were, as I have said, largely "short" in gold. 
 
 Some time in the month of August, according to common report a 
 large speculative clique was formed, consisting, as is known, of James 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 35 
 
 Fisk, jr., Jay Gould, the firm of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., "WiUiam 
 Belden, and E. K. Willard, and probably a number of other persons, 
 whose names are not known to me. They formed a plan to take advan- 
 tage of the position of the merchants and bankers so as virtually to rob 
 them of a large amount of money. Their plan was to buy up aU the 
 gold there was in the market, and as much more as foreign agents and 
 bankers or speculators were willing to sell them for future delivery; and 
 then, by maneuvers which I will hereafter explain, put up the market price 
 so high, and produce such a panic among these men as to oblige them to buy 
 the gold back from these men constituting the clique, at a much higher price 
 than they sold it for. They began to buy, so far as we have ascertained , in 
 the early part of September, when gold was in the neighborhood of 131 
 or 132. They bought more or less every day, and sometimes sold a little, 
 until the 22d of September, up to which time they are reported to have 
 bought about fifty millions in gold altogether. On the 23d of Septem- 
 ber they bought about sixty millions more. On the evening of the 23d 
 they are said to have had one hundred and eighteen millions in gold. 
 There were altogether in the market about thirty millions in coin, or in 
 United States certiiflcates representing gold. They had bought all or 
 nearly all this, and in addition eighty milUons more, which had been 
 sold to them by foreign agents and bankers, and to a certain extent by 
 speculators who had sold them the gold when they did not have it, but 
 who, in order to make their deliveries, had to borrow it. All this, of 
 course, was not generally known at that time, or previous to the 24:th. 
 There is reaUy very little gold to be had outside of the Treasury; but 
 the fact I have stated that those parties, on Thursday night the 23d of 
 September, had in their jJurchased possession one hundred and eighteen 
 millions of dollars of gold, comes to me on the sworn statement of one 
 of their principal brokers. When they had purchased a large amount 
 of this gold, probably thirty or forty millions, they began to circulate 
 the rumor, or at all events the rumors began to be afloat — about the 
 middle of September, as nearly as I can recoUect — ^that the parties who, 
 as the expression was, were manipulating the gold market, had in 
 league with them pretty much everybody in authority in the United 
 States, beginning with President Grant and ending with the door-keep- 
 ers of Congress. The President was reported as having a large interest, 
 as well as every member of his cabinet, especially the Secretary of the 
 Treasury; also a large number of the members of Congress. There is 
 no doubt but that these stories were set afloat by these men themselves 
 in order to frighten people into buying gold. And I might say here, 
 that so far as my investigations have led me, I have found nowhere the 
 slightest tittle of evidence connecting any one with this gold clique ex- 
 cept the known members thereof. But these rumors were circulated 
 with a pertinacity which showed that it was being done with an object. 
 A great many people became seriously alarmed, and began to think, from 
 the bold action of these men, and from the recklessness with which these 
 statements appeared every day in the public prints, and also from some 
 actions of the Secretary of the Treasury about that time, which I most 
 fully believe were entirely straight and upright on his part, but which 
 seemed to confirm the belief some people had that he was mixed up with 
 them — I say a great many became seriously alarmed, and began to buy 
 back the gold they had sold, And a great many nervous people, who 
 had no gold, and who had nothing to do with gold in a speculative way, 
 fearing the country was going to wreck and ruin, also went and bought 
 large amounts of gold. A large number of speculators also bought 
 more or less gold, because they thought they saw an opportunity to 
 
36 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 make a great deal of money. The consequence was, what with the 
 amount of gold which the clique had already bought, and these other 
 large purchases, nervous people became still more frightened, and about 
 the middle of September the price of gold began to rise rapidly, advan- 
 cing to 33, 34, 35, 40, and as high as 42, when people became more and 
 more convinced that these stories must be false, and those who had 
 gold generally sold it out; and not only sold what they had, but, be- 
 lieving that the price of gold was preposterously and unnecessarily high, 
 and that it was at any rate totally impossible for it to go higher, sold 
 for purposes of speculation large amounts in addition to that which they 
 had previously bought; in other words, sold large amounts of gold 
 "short." The' bulk of the gold brought on the market and sold was 
 bought by this clique, all this time, until, as I have before said, on the 
 22d of September they are believed to have had somewhere near fifty 
 millions of dollars. They then began to develop their plans more fully. 
 On the 23d, they bought up sixty millions, putting the price up from 137, 
 where it was the day before, to 144 and 145. On Friday they bought 
 seventy-five millions more of gold, which put the price up to 160. On 
 Thursday the clique had a meeting; precisely where, I have not been 
 able to ascertain, nor do I know to a certainty who attended it. But at 
 that meeting various plans were discussed for realizing the profits which 
 they expected to make from these operations. James Fisk, jr., is reported 
 to have suggested the following plans: That on the morning of Friday, 
 September 24, every newspaper in New York should contain an adver- 
 tisement, in a prominent place, stating in substance that "the under- 
 signed, brokers for the gold clique, are the possessors of one hundred 
 and eighteen millions of gold; that the following named gentlemen and 
 firms are known to be short of gold in the following amounts — giving a 
 list of the prominent brokers and dealers in gold, each being short sev- 
 eral millions ; that these parties own all the gold in the banks, and all 
 the gold which the brokers and firms named had borrowed; and giving 
 notice that until three o'clock that afternoon gold could be obtained of 
 the clique at 160, and that parties not willing to pay 160 during that day 
 would have to pay 200 for it the next day." After some discussion it 
 was agTeed that this plan was too hazardous; that the government would 
 not permit a thing like that to be done, and the project was therefore 
 abandoned. But they did adopt the following plan : They were to select 
 two or three of their principal brokers who were to go into the market 
 on Friday morning and buy all the gold ofiered for sale by anybody ; and 
 they were not to be satisfied with buying all the gold offered for sale, 
 but they were to bid for gold even when there was none offered, and buy 
 at high prices, in accordance with instructions which might be sent in 
 to them from time to time. 
 
 Gold opened that morning at 143. Two or three of the brokers con- 
 nected with the clique were early at the Exchange, and bought large 
 amounts at 143, 144, and 145. They went on buying at increased figures, 
 up to 160, buying during the day not less than sixty mOlions of gold at 
 prices varying from 145 to 160. It was no doubt prearranged that these 
 men should not receive that gold, or pay for it, but that, as soon as the 
 price had been put up to 160, they were to force people who were " short" 
 to come to them and buy gold. They were then to repudiate the brokers 
 who had been buying for them, and refuse to acknowledge that they ever 
 had anything to do with them, but let them go by the board. The 
 brokers employed for this purpose were William Belden, Albert Speyers 
 and W. F. Livermore & Co. I can produce detailed evidence of their 
 transactions, if the committee wish it. The plan undoubtedly was to 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 37 
 
 send these three firms into the market, and then to put up prices to 
 160, and keep them there. Several of the orders given these brokers 
 have been presented before me in the course of my investigations. One 
 of these orders directs them not to buy gold, but to put up the price to 
 150. Another order says, put gold up to 155 at once. The third order 
 said, put it up to 160 right away. These were the terms' of the instruc- 
 tions which these brokers received from the members of the clique. As 
 soon as they had the prices up to 150 or 155, they instructed their brokers 
 to send for the mei'chants, bankers, and brokers to whom they had 
 loaned gold belonging to the clique, and to get them whenever they 
 could into their private ofilces, and frighten them by showing them 
 statements of the position of the clique, threatening them if they did 
 not buy back the gold on such terms as the clique should dictate they 
 would be compelled next day to pay 200 for it. The statements which 
 they repeatedly made on these occasions were that they had all the lead- 
 ing men in Washington with them ; that Grant and all his family were 
 with them ; that no one would dare to interfere with them ; that they had 
 money enough to buy all the gold in the United States treasury, if the 
 Treasurer should dare to sell ; and that if these parties did not buy gold 
 at once, at 155 or 160, or whatever price they chose to ask them, they 
 would be compelled to pay 200 the next day. On the strength of these 
 representations, and with the fact actually before them that gold had 
 risen to 160, no one could teU whether they had not the ability to put up 
 the price to 200 ; and most of those who were " short" of gold bought this 
 gold back of them at their own figure. It is believed, though not known 
 positively, that they sold in that way not far from fifty millions of gold 
 on that Friday morning, at prices ranging from 148 to 155. But they 
 did not sell anything like the amount which they expected, and there- 
 fore gave further instructions to their brokers to continue buying at 160, 
 and they did buy gold in large amounts at that figure. 
 
 The effect of these sales, and the appearance of the market during the 
 morning of the 24th, cannot be better shown than by reading, as with 
 the permission of the committee I will do, an extract from a newspaper 
 published about that time : 
 
 In the spacious Exchange room of the Gold Board, crowded as it had never heen 
 crowded, even in the wildest excitement of war times, amid the strangest variations of 
 deathlike silence and tumultuous uproar, the pallid, half conscience-stricken brokers of 
 this gamhUng clique appeared, one after another, to do their dirty work. 
 
 By the little fountain which plays in the center of the floor, and around which the 
 principal business is transacted, first one bid arose, 145 for $100,000, and there was no 
 response. Then another bid, 146 for §100,000, and again no answer. 146, 147, 148, 149 
 for |100,000, with a pause between each, all amid deathlike silence. 
 
 The hundreds gathered there, and the thousands who read the ominous words on all 
 the telegraphic indicators in the principal business offices in the city, and the hundreds 
 of thousands who watched the telegraph offices throughout the country, stood appalled. 
 Each one per cent, advance involved losses of millions ; the gain was with the clique. 
 Who could teU what would be the end ? There was no resisting such power. They 
 could advance to 200 if they chose. And the usually surging, bustling, shouting mass 
 of humanity crowded there was held silent, almost motionless, as by a magic spell. 150 
 is now bid for $100,000, and despair suddenly gives back life to many. They rush 
 eagerly to bid and buy. Orders come in by telegraph to buy at any price. Messengers 
 from all parts of the city, the great bankers, the merchant princes, from up-town and 
 down-town, force their way in through the crush, and give back to the brokers the 
 sense of reality which they seem to have lost amid the dream-like terror. The stillness 
 is suddenly succeeded by frantic excitement. Transactions of enormous magnitude are 
 made amid the wildest confusion and the most unearthly screaming of men, always ex- 
 citable, now driven to the verge of temporary insanity by the consciousness of ruin, or 
 the delusive dream of immense wealth. But amid all the noise and confusion the pene- 
 trating voices of the leading brokers of the clique are stiU heard advancing the price 
 at each bid, and increasing the amount of their bids at each advance, until at last, with 
 voice overtopping the bedlam below, the memorable bid burst forth, " 160 for any part 
 
38 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 of five millions." Again the noise was hushed. Terror became depicted or^ every coun- 
 tenance. Cool, sober men looked at one another, and noted the ashy paleness that 
 spread over all. Even those who had but little or no interest at sta-ke were seized with 
 the infection of fear, and were conscious of a great evil approaching. And irom the 
 sDence again came forth that shrieking bid, "160 for five miUions," and no answer; 
 " 161 for five millions ;" "162 for five mSlions," still no answer; " 162 for any part of 
 five millions." ATid a quiet voice said, " Sold one million at 162." 
 That quiet voice broke the fascination. The bid of 162 was not renewed. But 161 
 ' was again bid for a million, and the same quiet voice said, " Sold ;" and the bid of 161 
 was not renewed. But 160 was again bid for five millions. Then dimly it dawned 
 upon the quicker-witted ones that for some reason or other the game was up. As if by 
 magnetic sympathy the same thought passed through the crowd at once. A dozen men 
 leapt furiously at the bidder, and claimed to have sold the whole five millions. To 
 their horror the bidder stood his ground and declared ho would take all. But before 
 the words had fairly passed his lips, before the terror at his action had had time to gain 
 men's hearts, there was a rush amid the crowd. New men, wild with fresh excitement, 
 crowded to the barriers. In an instant the rumor was abroad, the Treasury is selling. 
 Quick as thought men realized that it was not safe to sell to the clique brokers. 
 Scarcely any one now wanted to buy. All who had bought were mad to sell at any 
 price, but there were no buyers. In less time than it takes to write about it the price 
 fell from 162 to 135. The great gigantic gold bubble had burst, and half Wall street 
 was involved in ruin. 
 
 This break in the price evidently created a very decided disarrange- 
 ment in the plans of the clique. They had sold large amounts of gold 
 at private sale, as I have already stated, but nothing like as much as 
 they expected to sell ; and the consequence was, they were left, by this 
 sudden fall in the price, the holders of a large amount of gold, which 
 had cost them much more than it could be sold for in the market. Kot 
 only that, but they had loaned this gold to a great many merchants and 
 bankers, from whom they had received currency as security, in many 
 cases as high as 155 or 160 ; and according to the rules of the board, 
 the moment the price fell to 135 they were in a position to be called 
 upon by everybody who had borrowed gold of them or of their brokers, 
 to return their margins, and if they were not able to respond byre- 
 turning those margins, they would be declared bankrupt, and the gold 
 would have been sold out for their account, at the board, by the per- 
 sons who had borrowed it, in order to get as much as they could of their 
 money back. It was, therefore, a very great object with them to pre- 
 vent any one from being allowed to sell any gold for their account, un- 
 der the ruling of the board; and in order to prevent that, they ob- 
 tained, in a very extraordinary space of time, some of them as early as 
 the next Monday, injunctions from various courts in the State, prevent- 
 ing the board, or any member of the board, from selling out any gold, 
 for account of any one of the numerous string of brokers who had been 
 doing business for them ; and, also, against their own brokers, restrain- 
 ing them from settling any contracts ; and, also, against the Gold Ex- 
 change Bank, restraining it from paying over any balances ; and against 
 the officers of the board, restraining them from trying any of those 
 members for their default. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 Q. In the course of your testimony you stated that the conduct of 
 the Secretary of the Treasury was such as to give the impression of his 
 beiug in some way or other in league with the gold clique. What was 
 that conduct to which you refer ? — A. That he had for some time pre- 
 viously diminished or suspended his sales of gold. I do not remember 
 the precise time when the last gold was sold by him previous to that. 
 As near as T can remember, there was no gold offered in September un- 
 til after the panic ; whereas, in previous months it had been sold with 
 some degree of regularity. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 39 
 
 Q. State any otlier facts on wMcli that supposition was based. — A. 
 I cannot mention anything else, except the reiterated statements on the 
 part of the persons supposed to be interested. They asserted that the 
 President, and, as the expression was, "Boutwell," was in with them. 
 
 Q. Please state to the committee, as near as you know, who made 
 profits, and who lost, in these operations.— A. The great gainers by 
 the operation were the clique, and some few speculators who joined 
 hands or fell in with them. The principal losers were the merchants 
 and bankers of New York. 
 
 Q. Were any considerable number of the merchants, bankers, and 
 men doing a legitimate business, losers by these operations '? — A. Yes, 
 sir, a very large number ; almost every one of them, to a greater or less 
 extent. 
 
 Q. Can you make any approximate estimate of the amount lost 
 by the whole transaction? — A, I can estimate from some state- 
 ments made by their brokers, not under oath, but private statements 
 made by them on the day of the panic, that the clique must have real- 
 ized over twelve millions of dollars profits. In the latter part of the 
 day, they no doubt lost severely ; for they were large sellers of gold at 
 lower prices than they bought for. Most of the gold bought for them 
 on Friday they have not acknowledged, nor has it ever been received 
 by them. 
 
 Q. If they had settled all their transactions, according to the rules of 
 the Gold Exchange, what would have been the result ? — A. They would 
 have lost twenty millions of dollars at the least. 
 
 By Mr. Lynch: 
 Q. Do you mean to say that they really made twenty millions or more by 
 not selling ? — A. Exactly. In their own offices, or in the offices of their 
 private bankers, they made, on that Friday, not less than twelve mil- 
 lions of dollars; and if they had succeeded in selling all their gold 
 loans, they probably would have , made not less than thirty millions. 
 But on a part of the gold they lost, instead of making; and lost heavily 
 on that last day. • 
 
 By Mr. Judd: 
 
 Q. Did they pay aU those losses? — A. Yes, sir; on the transactions 
 which they chose to acknowledge. But, as I have said, not on the 
 transactions of their brokers, at the high rates of Priday. In fact, it 
 is well understood, although there is no positive proof of it, that there 
 was a preconcerted plan that those brokers were to fail that day. 
 
 Q. Please state whether the brokers, which I understood you to say 
 were about twenty in number, in the employ of the clique, were 
 thoroughly posted in what they were doing. — A. Some of them were ; 
 others were not. 
 
 Q. Who were the ones taken into their confidence? — A. E. K. Wil- 
 lard, Osborne & Cammack, Ohapin, Bowen & Day, are generally be- 
 Ueved to have been in their confidence; and I might mention others 
 about whom I am more or less doubtful. 
 
 Q. State in what respect the clique violated the rules of the Gold 
 Exchange in their transactions. — A. In almost every respect. Their 
 brokers refused to receive gold which they had bought, and refused to 
 deliver gold which they had sold. 
 
 Q. What action, if any, has your Gold Exchange taken with reference 
 to these violations of their rules? — A. None. 
 
 Q. Why not?— A. Because it has been forbidden by the courts. 
 
40 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Please exhibit to the committee the injunctions or decrees of the 
 court preventing your board from bringing these people to their respon- 
 sibility under your rules. 
 
 The injunctions were here exhibited, and are as follows: 
 
 Supreme court. 
 
 William H. Lloyd and Charles H. Hamilton, plamtiffs,Jg^j^jjjpj,g£gj^gjjg£ Qo^. 
 
 against , ^ , ^ ( plaint served. 
 
 The New York Gold Exchange Bank, defendant. > 
 
 To the defendant : 
 
 You are hereby summoned and required to answer the complaint in this action, of 
 which a copy is herewith served upon you, and to serve a copy of your answer to the 
 said complaint on the subscribers, at their office, No. 4 Pine street, in the city of New 
 York, within twenty days after the service hereof, exclusive of the day of such sorvioo, 
 and if you fail to answer the complaint within the time aforesaid, the plaintiffs in this 
 action will apply to the court for the relief demanded in the complaint. 
 
 Dated New York, October 4, 1869. 
 
 FIELD & SHERMAN, Plaintiffs' Attorneys. 
 
 Supreme court. — city and county of New York. 
 
 "William M. Lloyd and Charles H. Hamilton, plaintiffs, ) 
 
 against > Complaint. 
 
 The New York Gold Exchange Bank, defendant. ) 
 
 The plaintiffs complain and allege — 
 
 First. That the defendant is a banking corporation, duly organized under the laws 
 of this State, located and doing business in the city of New York as a gold clearing- 
 house. 
 
 Second. That the plaintiffs are creditors of the said corporation in an amount ex- 
 ceeding twenty-one thousand dollars. 
 
 Third. That the said corporation has admitted to the plaintiffs that there is a large 
 balance to their credit in its hands, but declares its inability to make out a statement 
 of such balances, or to ascertain the amount thereof, and has refused to make any such 
 statement or to pay the plaintiffs any part thereof, although the plaintiffs requested it 
 to do so. 
 
 Fourth. That, as the plaintiffs are informed and believe, the said corporation is in- 
 Bolvent, and is indebted to various persons to the amount of several millions of dollars, 
 which it is unable to pay. 
 
 Fifth. That the affairs of the said corporation are in a state of entire confusion ; it 
 das been unable to make up its accounts for several days, and there is great dauger 
 that unless its affairs are wound up by this court, its funds will be paid out to persons 
 not entitled to receive the same, and its assets wasted and irretrievably lost. 
 
 Wherefore the plaintiffs demand judgment — 
 
 1. That the defendant be dissolved. 
 
 2. That the defendant, its ofaoers, agents, and servants, be restrained by injunction 
 from exercising any of its corporate rights, privileges, or franchises, from collecting 
 or receiving any debts or demands, and from paying out or in any wav transferrin"' or 
 delivering to any person any of the moneys, property, or effects of the'defendant. 
 
 3. That a receiver be appointed to take charge of the property and effects of the de- 
 fendant, to collect, sue for and recover the debts aud demands that may be due and the 
 property that may belong to the defendant, and in general to wind up and settle its 
 
 FIELD & SHERMAN, Plaintiffs' Attorneys. 
 
 City and County of New York, ss : 
 
 Charles H. Hamilton, being duly sworn, says that he is the plaintiff in the above 
 entitled action ; that the complaint herein is true of his own knowledge, except as to 
 the matter therein stated on information and belief, and as to those matters he believes 
 it to be true. 
 
 CHARLES H. HAMILTON. 
 
 Sworn to before me, this 4th day of Octobei, 1869. 
 
 T. B. ELLIOT, Mtary Public. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 4i 
 
 Supreme court. 
 
 Benjamin F. Carver akd others ) 
 
 against > Notice of appearance. 
 
 The New York Gold Exchange Bank. ) 
 
 Sir : Please take notice that we are retained by and appear for the defendant in the 
 above entitled action, apd hereby demand that a copy of the complaint, and all other 
 papers in said action, be served on us, at our office, No. 31 Nassau street, (comer of 
 Cedar, Bank of Commerce Building,) in the city of Now York. 
 
 Yours, &c., , „ „ , . 
 
 MAETIN & SMITH, Attorneys for Defendant. 
 
 H. SMAI.E8, Esq., PlainUff^ Attorney. 
 
 Supreme court. 
 
 Benjamin F. Carver and Watts Carver, plaintiffs, ) Summons for relief Complaint 
 
 against > served 
 
 The New York Gold Exchange Bank, defendant. ) 
 
 To the defendant: 
 
 You are hereby summoned and required to answer the complaint in this action, of 
 which a copy is herewith served upon you, and to serve a copy of your answer to the 
 ■said complaint on the subscribers, at their office, No. 4 Pine street, in the city of New 
 York, within twenty days after the service hereof, exclusive of the day of sucli service, 
 and if you fail to answer the complaint within the time aforesaid, the plaintiffs in this 
 action will apply to the court for the relief demanded in the complaint. 
 
 Dated New York, October 5, 1869. 
 
 FIELD & SHERMAN, Flaintifs' Attorneys. 
 
 Supreme court, city and county of New York. 
 
 Benjamin F. Carver and Watts Carver, plaintiffs, 
 against . 
 
 The New York Gold Exchange Bank, defendant. 
 
 The plaintiffs complain and allege^ — 
 
 First. That the defendant is a banking corporation, duly organized under the laws 
 of this State, and doing business in the city of New York as a bank and gold clearing- 
 house. 
 
 Second. That the plaintiff's are creditors of the said corporation in an amount exceed- 
 ing fourteen thousand dollars, that amount having been received by the defendant 
 for the plaintiffs' use, and the defendant having remsed to pay the plaintiffs any part 
 thereof, although requested by the plaintiffs to do so, and although the defendant has 
 admitted to the plaintiffs that the same is due to them. 
 
 Third. That, as the plaintiffs are informed and believe, the defendant is insolvent, and 
 is indebted to various persons in very large amounts which it is unable to pay, and it 
 has paid out large sums of money to persons not entitled thereto, to the prejudice of its 
 real creditors. 
 
 Fourth. That the affairs of the defendant are in a state of entire confusion, and it 
 has been unable to make up its accounts for several days, and there is great danger 
 that unless its affairs are wound up by this court, its funds wiU be paid out to persons 
 not entitled to receive the same, and its assets wasted and irretrievably lost. 
 
 Wherefore the plaintiffs demand judgment — 
 
 1. That the defendant be dissolved. 
 
 2. That the defendant, its officers, ajgents, and servants, be restrained by injunction 
 from exercising any of its corporate rights, privileges or franchises, from collecting or 
 receiving any debts or demands, and from paying out, or in any way transferring or 
 delivering to any person, any of the moneys, property, or effects of the defendant. 
 
 3. That a receiver be appointed to take charge of the property and effects of the de- 
 fendant, to collect, sue for, and recover the debts and demands that may be due, and 
 the property that may belong to the defendant, and in general to wind up and set- 
 tle its affairs. 
 
 FIELD & SHEEMAN, Plaintiffs' Attorn^s. 
 City and Cotintv of New York : 
 
 Benjamin F. Carver, being duly sworn, says that lie is one of the plaintiffs in the 
 above entitled action ; that the complaint herein is true of his own knowledge, except 
 as to the matters which are therein stated to be upon information and belief, and as to 
 those matters he believes it to be true. 
 
 BENJAMIN F. CAEVEE. 
 Sworn to before me this day of October, 1869. 
 
 EDWARD ENSIGN, 
 Notary Public, New Yorlc County^ 
 
42 
 
 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Supreme court. 
 
 Cham.es J. OSBORN, plaintiff, ) Summons for relief. Complaint 
 
 against V served. 
 
 The New Yoek Gold Exchange Bane, defendant. ) 
 
 To the defendant : 
 
 You are hereby summoned and required to answer tlie complaint in this action, of 
 ■wWcli a copy is herewitli served upon you, and to serve a copy of your answer to the 
 said complaint on the subscribers at their ofiace, No. 4 Pine street, in the city of New- 
 York, within twenty days after the service hereof, exclusive of the day of such service, 
 and if you fail to answer the complaint within the time aforesaid, the plaintiff m this 
 action will apply to the court for the relief demanded in the complaint. 
 
 Dated New York, September 28, 1869. 
 
 FIELD & SHERMAN, Plaintiffs' Attorneys. 
 
 Supreme court, city and county of New York. 
 
 Charles J. OsBOEisr ) 
 
 against > Complaint. 
 
 The New York Gold Exchange Bank. ) 
 
 The plaintiff complains and alleges — 
 
 First. That the defendant is a corporation duly organized by and under the laws of 
 the State of New York, located and doing business in the city of New York, as a gold 
 clearing-house. 
 
 Second. That the plaintiff is a creditor of the said corporation in an amount exceed- 
 ing $31,000. 
 
 Third. That, in addition to its usual banking business and in its character of a clear- 
 ing-house, it is the custom and business of the said corporation to reeei ve from its 
 dealers daily statements of their transactions between each other in gold clearing, the 
 amount due to or owing by them to each other. The said bank then makes a clearance or 
 general balance of said several accounts of its dealers, and places to the debit or credit 
 of its dealers, as the case may be, upon its books, the balances which in such clearances 
 appear to be due to or from them, respectively ; the dealers having balances to their 
 debit pay the same into the bank, which then undertakes, forthwith, to pay to the 
 other dealers the balances standing to their credit respectively. 
 
 Fourth. That, by reason of such a course of business and custom, the correctness of 
 such general clearance of such debits and credits is entirely dependent upon the cor- 
 rectness of such several daily statements, so as aforesaid made to it, and the ability of the 
 said bank to pay its several dealers any balances due to them is also entirely dependent 
 upon the payment to the bank of the accounts or balances due to it from its dealers;, 
 and so numerous are the transactions of its dealers among themselves that the failure 
 of any one of them to pay to the bank the balance due from him will inevitably throw 
 into confusion the accounts of a large number of its other dealers, so that said bank 
 cannot safely pay to any of its dealers any balances due to them until all and every 
 of the accounts or balances due from the other dealers are paid. 
 
 Fifth. That, as the plaintiff is informed and believes, there is a large amount to his 
 credit and to the credit of many other persons in its hands, but the officers profess an 
 entire inability to make a statement of such balances or to ascertain the amount thereof, 
 and have refused to make any such statement or to pay the plaintiff any part of the 
 balance due to him, although the plaintiff has requested it to do so. 
 
 Sixth. That the said company is insolvent and indebted to various persons in the 
 amount of several millions of dollars which it is unable to pay. 
 
 Seventh. That the affairs of the said company are in a state of entire confusion • it 
 has been unable to make up its accounts for several days, and there is great danger 
 that unless its affairs are wound up by this court its funds will be paid out to persons 
 not entitled to receive the same, and its assets wasted and irretrievably lost. 
 
 Wherefore the plaintiff demands judgment — 
 
 1. That the defendant be dissolved. 
 
 2. That the defendant, its officers, agents, and servants, be restrained by injunctions 
 from exercising any of the corporate rights, privileges, or franchises, of the defend- 
 ant ; from collecting or receiving any debts or demands, and from paying out or in any 
 way transferring or delivering to any person, any of the moneys, property or effects in 
 its possession, and from receiving from its dealers any balances due from them and 
 from clearing any of the accounts of its dealers, and from paying to any person or per- 
 sons whatsoever any balances which may appear by its books, or by said accounte of 
 its dealers to be due to them. 
 
 3. That a receiver be appointed to take charge of the property and effects of the 
 defendant ; to collect, sue for, and recover the debts and demands, balances which may be 
 due, and the property that may belong to the defendant ; to receive the statements and 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 43 
 
 accounts of its said dealers, and to make a clearance thereof, under the direction of 
 tTie court and in eeneral to wind up and settle the affairs of the said defendant. 
 
 ' ^ . FIELD & SHERMAN, Plaintiffa' Attorneys. 
 
 City and County of New York: 
 
 Charles J. Osborn being duly sworn, says that he is the plaintiff in the above en- 
 titled action, and that the foregoing complaint is true, of his own knowledge, except 
 as to those matters therein stated on information and beUef, and as to those matters 
 he believes it to be true. C. J. OSBOEN. 
 
 Sworn to before me the 28th day of September, 1869. 
 
 ' MORTIMER SMITH, 
 
 Notary FMic, New York. 
 
 Supreme court, city and county of New York. 
 Charles J. Osborn 
 
 The New York Gold Exchange Bank. 
 
 City and County of New York, ss : 
 
 Charles J. Osborn, being duly sworn, says : 
 
 l^st. I am the plaintiff in this action. 
 
 Second. I have read the complaint herein, and except so far as the same is true of 
 my own knowledge, the statements therein are founded upon admissions made to nie, 
 or in my presence, by officers and agents of the defendant, having full knowledge of 
 its affairs. 
 
 Third. The accounts of the defendant for its transactions on Thursday last, Septem- 
 ber 23, 1869, covering many millions of dollars, were not made up when the defendant 
 closed business on Saturday, the 25th of September, 1869, and the balances due upon 
 such accounts were not paid at 12 o'clock, noon, of this day, if they have been paid at 
 all, and the defendant's officers have openly declared their entire inability to make a 
 statement of such account, or to settle the balances thereon, unless some of their cred- 
 itors would advance to the defendant a very large sum of money to pay debts due the 
 defendant from other persons, which it was nnable to collect ; and one or more of its 
 creditors have advanced a considerable part of this sum, but have, nevertheless, not 
 attained a settlement of the said account. 
 
 Fourth. The transactions of dealers with the said bank, on Friday last, September 
 24, 1869, amounted to several hundred millions of dollars, and that the said defendant 
 has not yet begun to make any statement of such transactions ; and the officers of the 
 defendant, having charge of its affairs, have not duly declared their entire inability to 
 make up the accounts of the said Friday, until the said Thursday's accounts have been 
 settled, but refuse to say whether they would be able to make a settlement of Friday's 
 accounts in any case. 
 
 Fifth. I am informed by some of the officers of the defendant that it has made con- 
 siderable payments, on account of its transactions on the said Thursday, to a few favor- 
 ite creditors upon a basis of a statement of the accounts, which was afterward found 
 to be unreliable, and I believe that the payments thus made have so far reduced the 
 assets of the defendant as to have destroyed its ability to settle the accounts upon 
 their true basis. 
 
 Sixth. The defendant's capital is only five hundred thousand dollars, and I am in- 
 formed, and believe, that its liabilities, by reason of the said payments and the general 
 confusion of its accounts, exceed its good and collectable assets by much more than 
 that sum. 
 
 C. J. OSBORN. 
 
 Sworn before me this 28th day of September, 1869. 
 
 MORTIMER SMITH, 
 
 Notary PuMic, N. Y. 
 
 By Mr, Smith: 
 
 Q. State whether certified checks on national banks were used by this 
 gold clique to enable them to inflate the price of gold. — A. I have heard 
 they were, to a very large extent. I have been told that the Tenth Na- 
 tional Bank, on the 23d of September, certified for brokers of the clique 
 to the extent of thirty millions of dollars, but I do not know it to be 
 the fact. 
 
 Q. Please state your opinion of the effect upon the commercial inter- 
 ests of New York of a law forbidding national banks from issuing cer- 
 
44 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 tifled checks.— A. I think such a law would be highly injurious. The 
 right of national banks to certify checks is very easily abused, just as 
 the right to do business at the Gold Exchange, and the right of clearance 
 at the Gold Exchange Bank, have been shamefully abused. But it is 
 most essential to the transaction of business down town that the banks 
 be allowed io certify checks. 
 
 Q. Is not the practice as now carried on a practical inflation of the 
 currency ?— A. I think not. This certification of checks by the banks 
 is not equivalent to an inflation of the currency, because it is simply a 
 piece of machinery. The main use to which certified checks are put is 
 this : For example, suppose I do business for three or four of the largest 
 banking-houses in New Tork, buying and selling large amounts of gold 
 and government bonds for them. I frequently may buy over a million 
 of bonds at one time for one large house which exports the bonds to 
 Europe. It is very important for the secret and proper way of con- 
 ducting business for that firm that it should not be known who I buy 
 those bonds for. A house, for, instance, that has prior information of 
 some event in Europe, buys bonds, perhaps, through half a dozen dif- 
 ferent brokers ; and if its purchases were immediately known on the 
 street, it might frequently prevent their buying more for the same per- 
 son. The fact of broker buying is of no importance, whereas if the 
 fact is known that a certain house is buying, it sometimes alfects the 
 market to the extent of from three-quarters to one per cent. Now, if I 
 were prevented from receiving those bonds myself, I would be obliged 
 to declare to the seller that I had bought them for account of this house, 
 and their, plans would be interfered with. The party of whom I pur- 
 chased would not be willing to deliver to me the bonds unless I gave 
 him a certified check ; and as I am not rich enough to have three or 
 four hundred thousand dollars lying in bank, the bank officers, knowing 
 that my representations are trustworthy, agree to certify mj^ checks for 
 these large amounts, with the understanding that the certified checks 
 of the parties on whose account I make the purchase will be delivered 
 and deposited in exchange for my certified checks. That is the legiti- 
 mate use which is made of certified checks in the ordinary transactions 
 of business. They greatly facilitate the transaction of business. Again, 
 the denial to my bank of the privilege of certifying to my checks, would 
 compel me to give up the name of my principal in the transaction, dis- 
 closing the nature of his business without any corresponding benefit 
 ensuing. One reason why I think it would be injurious to the banks 
 themselves to deny them the privilege of certified checks is, that they 
 would be strongly tempted to accept on deposit checks not certified, sub- 
 jecting them to a much greater danger than now ; for, although my 
 bank may certify my check to the amount of two hundred and fifty 
 thousand dollars, it would not receive from me any check until it has 
 been certified by a bank. When my bank, however, certifies my check, 
 it incurs a moderate risk ; but it is a very limited risk ; and by this 
 means they facilitate business greatly, and by allowing this medium of 
 exchange they obtain a certified check from the party who is my prin- 
 cipal, upon the bank in which his money is deposited. But if they refuse 
 to certify my check, they cannot expect that checks which I deposit, 
 drawn on other banks, shall be certified. 
 
 Q. Is there any way by which the abuses which are practiced from 
 
 the use of certified checks can be prevented by legislation ? A. No, 
 
 sir; the only way in which those abuses can be prevented is by the 
 strictest investigation of such abuses whenever they come to the knowl- 
 edge of the government officers. In other words, their correction is 
 
G01,D PANIC INVESTIGATION. 45 
 
 rather with the administrative than the legislative branch of the 
 government. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 Q. You think we cannot make a law prohibiting the use of certified 
 checks ? — A. You can make a law, but it will not do any good. It will 
 only drive the banks to the adoption of some other plan, much more haz- 
 ardous to themselves and to the community. I know of no way to pre- 
 vent it, except by the strictest control over the national banks, and 
 frequent investigations by the proper officers — investigations by men 
 high in rank, character, and standing in the community. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. I understand you to say that, so far as you know, there was never 
 any such institution in existence as the Gold Exchange until after the 
 suspension of specie payment? — A. No, sir, not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Can the Gold Exchange Bank exist after the resumption of specie 
 payments ? — ^A. No, sir, not in its present condition. These transactions 
 must necessarily cease immediately upon resumption. 
 
 By Mr. Buechaed : 
 Q. State whether brokers are engaged in dealing in gold exclusively °l — 
 A. A very small number are ; a very much larger number are engaged 
 in dealing in stocks, bonds, foreign exchange, &c. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. You are a broker, as I understand you, representing what house ? — 
 A, I represent my own house, only. 
 
 Q. State whether your house, or the members of any of these firms, 
 suffered by this gold panic? — A. Yes., sir; some of them did, more or 
 less. Our own house, however, and most of our friends, suffered only 
 to a limited extent. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Did you purchase or sell gold speculatively during the September 
 panic ? — A. No, sir ; not a dollar, for my own house or any other, so fax 
 as I know. 
 
 Q. What is the name of your firm, and the precise nature of your 
 business?— A. The title of my firm is Hodgskin, Eandall & Hobson. I 
 do an exclusively commission business for a number of the leaders, 
 bankers, and merchants of New York. 
 
 Q. If you do not violate any business secrets in doing so, state as many 
 as you can recollect of "the names of the principal bankers and merchants 
 of New York for whom you do business? — A. I do more or less busi- 
 ness for Duncan, Sherman & Co., Eugene Kelly & Co., the Bank of 
 British North America, the firm of F. Schushard & Sons, J. & W. 
 Sehgmann & Co., GrinneU, Minturn & Co., Howland & Aspinwall, 
 Fabbri & Chauncey, and a number of others. I have only referred to 
 the principal names. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 Q. Have j^ou hitherto done a speculative class of business?— A. 
 Scarcely ever— I may say never. I will state that, representing the 
 interests of these houses, doing a very large business, I had for some 
 time previous to the panic been watching the operations of this clique 
 and had become convinced that there was danger of their causing very 
 great and serious trouble. I was so thoroughly convinced of this that 
 I had repeatedly consulted a number of the leading bankers and busi- 
 
46 
 
 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 w York, to see whether there was no means of preventing 
 3. In order to be better able to follow up the matter, I 
 
 ness men of New 
 
 their operations. ^ 
 
 had watched the operations of the New York brokers until I knew pretty 
 well who were the brokers of this clique; and I specially avoided any 
 transactions or any connection with them. In this way I escaped the 
 severe loss which otherwise would have inevitably fallen upon me and 
 my clients. 
 
 By the ChaIEMAN: 
 
 Q. WiU you state how, in your opinion, the difficulties and misfortunes 
 arising from that panic could have been avoided, and can be avoided in 
 future?— A. I know of no legislation that could be beneficial, unless it 
 would be such as would enable the board to enforce its own laws and 
 rules. The board, if it had not been deprived of its authority, could have 
 prevented that panic. If these men had not know^n that they could defy 
 the board, they never would have dared attempt what they did. 
 
 Q. Was not that board the theater of all those transactions? — A. The 
 unwilling theatre — yes. 
 
 Q. Is there no other federal legislation that you can suggest, which 
 will prevent such transactions ? — A. None that I can now mention, unless 
 it be the resumption of specie payment. 
 
 The following papers were subsequently furnished : 
 
 A. 
 
 At a special term of the supreme court of the State of New York, held in and for the 
 county of New York, in the court-house in the said city, this 29th day of September, 
 1869. Present: Honorable Albert Cardozo, justice. 
 
 ChAELES J. OSBOKN 
 
 agaimst 
 The New York Gold Exchange Bank. 
 
 On reading and filing the complaint herein duly verified and the affidavit of Charles 
 J. Osborn, plaintiff; and on motion of Field and Sherman, plaintiff's attorneys, it is 
 ordered that the defendant, the New York Gold Exchange Bank, its officers, directors, 
 agents, attorneys, and servants, each and every of them, refrain from exercising any of 
 its corporate rights, privileges, or franchises, and from collecting or receiving any debts 
 or demands, and from paying out, or in any way transferring or delivering to any per- 
 son or persons, any of the moneys, property, or efiects in the possession of-the defend- 
 ant, and from receiving from its dealers any balances due from them, and from clearing 
 any of the accounts ot its dealers, and from paying to any person or persons whom- 
 soever any balances which may appear by its books, or by said accounts of its dealers, 
 to-be due to them, until the further order of this court. 
 
 And it is hereby further ordered that the defendant show cause before a justice of 
 this court, at a special term thereof to be held at chambers in the city of New York, on 
 the first Monday of October, 1869, at ten o'clock a. m., why a receiver of all the moneys, 
 property, effects, and franchises of the said defendant should not be appointed, pursu- 
 ant to the provisions of the revised statutes in such cases made and provided with the 
 powers and authority conferred upon receivers in such cases, and why the plaintiff 
 should not have such other and further relief as may be just ; and in the meantime and 
 until the hearing and decision of the motion, Augustus L. Bro^vn, esquire, is hereby ap- 
 pointed such receiver, upon his presenting to this court, or a justice thereof, a good and 
 sufficient bond to the people of this State, to be approved by said court or a justice, in 
 the penalty of ten thousand dollars. 
 
 A. C. 
 
 A copy. j\ s'.'c 
 
 Chas. E. Loew, Clerk 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 47 
 
 B. 
 
 Inventory of property in the New York Gold Exchmge Bank, received from Augmtns L. 
 Brown, receiver, iy Conrad N. Jordan, receiver. 
 
 New York, OetoVer U, 1869. 
 
 Mutilated bills, Bixty-seyen dollars |67 00 
 
 Fractional currency, six hundred and seventy dollars 670 00 
 
 American silver, twenty-seven dollars and twenty-seven cents 27 27 
 
 Currency, one hundred and seventy thousand three hundred and seventy- 
 
 fivedoliars 170,375 00 
 
 Fractional currency, twenty-eight dollars and five cents 28 05 
 
 Nickels, three dollars and fifty-eight cents 3 58 
 
 Currency, two thousand and seventy-six dollars 2, 076 00 
 
 Fractional currency, one hundred and thirty-seven dollars 137 00 
 
 Check, payable in currency to B. H. Bixby, at Irving National Bank, two 
 
 hundred dollars - 200 00 
 
 One buckskin bag, containing twenty-three dollars and eighty-eight cents 
 in currency and fractional currency, and nine dollars and sixty-nine cents 
 in coin, and memorandum ticket signed "Sancton," for twenty-five dol- 
 lars gold 58 57 
 
 Silver coin, forty-four dollars and fifty cents 44 50 
 
 Gold coin, four hundred and thirty-two dollars 432 00 
 
 One coupon. No. 163,262, for thirty dollars, (payable January 1, 1870) 30 00 
 
 One packet, marked H. L. Chichester, containing two silver watches 
 
 One package, marked $24, one marked |50, one marked $15, and eleven dol- 
 lars in nickel coin, (rolls) 100 00 
 
 United States gold certificates, one hundred and thirty-two thousand seven 
 
 hundred and twenty dollars 132,720 00 
 
 Gold coin, one thousand three hundred and fifty-two dollars 1,352 00 
 
 Fractional currency, seventy cents 70 
 
 Gold coin, fifty-two hundred and forty dollars 5, 240 00 
 
 One bag gold coin» marked "Bank of England," containing five thousand 
 
 dollars (by weight) 5,000 00 
 
 Fifteen bags gold coin, containing each, by weight, five thousand dollars. . 75, 000 00 
 
 One bag gold coin, containing, by weight, thirty-four hundred doUais 3, 400 00 
 
 One bag nickel coin, fifteen dollars 15 00 
 
 Five dollars, two cent pieces 5 00 
 
 Six dollars lq cents in twenty-four packages 6 00 
 
 One tin box, (oak colored,) containing, in nickel coin and ourrency, seven- 
 teen dollars and seventy-four cents 17 74 
 
 One check (certified) on the Bank of New York, by Naylor & Co., payable 
 
 in gold coin, $19,222 22 19,222 22 
 
 Three certificates of deposit in Sixth National Bank, Nos. 1781, 1782, and 
 1783, each by C. Darling, president, issued to Mrs. E. W. Haven for $200, 
 
 $200, and $100, respectively, in gold 500 00 
 
 One memorandum, "Wm. Bird 100 I. H. Gold." 
 
 Two memorandum gold checks on New York Gold Exchange Bank, No. 823 
 and 830, dated August 16 and 18, 1869, respectively, one for $100,000, the 
 
 other $150,000, each drawn by August Belmont & Co 
 
 One check (president's) to order Dakin & GiUespy, one hundred dollars cur- 
 rency, Septembers, 1869 
 
 Memorandum of settlement Van Schaick & Co., September 27, 1869 
 
 One package memorandum 
 
 Three boxes, marked one "commissions from dealers," one "first division," 
 
 and one " second division " 
 
 One box marked " Brennen," one marked " H. C. Eogers," one "William Fos- 
 ter, jr.," said to have been left for safe-keeping and not the proi^erty of 
 
 the bank 
 
 One empty tin box 
 
 Sundry securities, supposed to be worthless; one thousand dollar bond 
 Brooklyn Steamship Company; $2,000 bonds Pittsburg, Maysville, and 
 Cincinnati Eailroad Company; $2,500 Logan Co. bonds; one|l,000 bond 
 Fremont & Indiana Eailroad Company ; one hundred shares New York 
 Consolidated Coal Company ; eight hundred shares St. Domingo Copper 
 
 Company 
 
 One large iron safe, office furniture^ desks, chairs, tables, inkstands 
 
 One set scales for weighing gold, with weights 
 
 Gas fixtures 
 
[EBS, ) 
 
 48 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 One telegraph apparatus for stock operations ; ■■'■■vx"V 
 
 Lot of miscellaneous books in use, consisting of check books, division booKS, 
 ledgers, &c " 
 
 Lot of new check books in safe 
 
 Lot of old books for reference in safe , 
 
 Lot of vouchers in safe 
 
 F. L. EAMES, 
 FEANCIS M. BIXBY, 
 J. K. CUMING, 
 WM. F. MATHEWS. 
 C. 
 
 At a special term of the supreme court of the State of New York, held at the court- 
 house in the city of New York, on the 9th day of October, 1869. Present : Hon. Albert 
 Cardozo, justice. 
 
 ChaS. J. OSBORN 
 against. 
 The New York Gold Exchange Bank. 
 WrLLiAM M. Lloyd and others, 
 agt. 
 The same. 
 Benjamin F. Carver and others, ' 
 agt. 
 The Same. 
 
 On reading the orders to show cause why a receiver should not be appointed, entered 
 in these actions, and the verified complaints herein, which are now on file, and on iiling 
 the affidavit of Edward Ensign, verified on the 8th day of October, instant, and the 
 consent of the parties herein, it is hereby ordered — 
 
 First. That Augustus L. Brown, esq., receiver herein appointed ad interim, be author- 
 ized and directed, and be is hereby authorized and directed, to pay out of the moneys 
 in his hands as such receiver, and out of the assets of the said New York Gold Exchange 
 Bank, for the expenses of the legal proceedings had in respect to his appointment, the 
 following sums, to wit : To the plaintiff's attorney, five thousand'doUars ; to the de- 
 fendant's attorney, two thousand five hundred dollars ; to James Elliot, esq., of coun- 
 sel for the defendant, two thousand five hundred dollars, and to A. J. Vanderpoel, esq,, 
 of counsel for the said receiver, five thousand dollars. 
 
 Second. That the said receiver be, and he is hereby, authorized and directed to pay 
 out of the moneys aforesaid the following sums to creditors of the defendant, to wit : 
 To Edward K. Willard & Co. the sum of seventy-five thousand dollars ; to William 
 Heath & Co. such balance as may be due to them in coin and currency, from pay- 
 ments actually made to the said bank in their account and from deposits, and also the 
 balance coming to said Heath & Co. from C. C. Parks, according to the statement fur- 
 nished by Heath & Co. to the said bank. 
 
 Third. That the present and any future receiver appointed in these actions, or any 
 of them, be and are hereby directed to pay to the said William Heath & Co. such further 
 sums as may fall due to them, in coin and currency, from moneys hereafter paid to sach 
 receiver or to said bank for account of said Heath & Co., such sums to be paid over as 
 soon as received. 
 
 Fourth. That the fees and compensation of the said Augustus L. Brown, esq., for his 
 services as receiver be, and the same are hereby, fixed and adjusted at the sum of fifteen 
 thousand dollars, and that he be further allowed the sum of five hundred dollars for 
 his disbursements herein ; and that he is hereby authorized to deduct the said several 
 sums from any funds in his hands as such receiver before turning over any moneys or 
 property to any other receiver to be appointed in these actions or any of them. 
 
 CHAS. E. LOEW. 
 D. 
 
 New Y'ork supreme court. 
 Charles J. Osbokn i 
 
 agt. ' > 
 
 The New York Gold Exchange Bank. ) 
 
 William M. Lloyd and Charles H. Hamilton i 
 
 agt. \ 
 
 The Samb. ) 
 
 Benjamin F. Carver and Watts Carver i 
 
 agt. V 
 
 The Same. ) 
 
 Received, New York, October 11, 1869, from August. L. Brown, receiver of the defend 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 49 
 
 ants in the above-entitled actions, and in whose place and stead I have been substi- 
 tuted as receiver by order of this court, entered in the above entitled actions and dated 
 the 9th day of October, 1869, all the property, money, eifects, and franchises of the 
 defendant which came to the possession of the said Augustus L. Brown, under the order 
 of this court dated the 29th day of September, 1869, entered in the first above-entitled 
 action, a copy whereof is hereto annexed, marked A, and which receivership was ex- 
 tended afterwards by orders duly entered in the second and third entitled actions, a 
 true inventory of which property is hereto annexed and marked B, being a copy of the 
 oiigiual inventory taken by said Augustus L. Brown as such receiver, on the said 29th 
 day of September, 1869, excepting only therefrom the following sums of money, which 
 have been paid out by said receiver, Augustus L. Brown, under the order of this court 
 dated the 9th day of October, 1869, a true copy whereof is hereto annexed, marked C. 
 
 1. To the plaintiff's attorneys, five thousand dollars in currency, ($5,000.) 
 
 2. To the defendant's attorneys, two thousand five hundred dollars in currency, 
 ($2,500.) 
 
 3. To James Emott, esq., counsel for defendants, two thousand five hundred dollars 
 in currency, ($2,500.) 
 
 4. To A. J. Vanderpoel, counsel for receiver, five thousand dollars in currency, 
 ($5,000.) 
 
 5. Edward K. Willard & Co., seventy-five thousand dollars in currency, ^$75,000.) 
 
 6. William Heath & Co., two hundred and ten thousand dollars in coin, ($210,000.) 
 
 7. William Heath & Co., thirty-three thousand three hundred doUars in currency, 
 ($33,300.) 
 
 8. To the receiver for fees as such, fifteen thousand dollars in currency, ($15,000.) 
 
 9. To the receiver for disbursements, five hundred dollars in currency, ($500.) 
 
 Also, received from said Augustus L. Brown the sum of seven hundred and thirty- 
 nine dollars and sixty-two cents in coin, and the sum of six thousand one hundred and 
 twenty-eight ^ dollars in currency, received by said Augustus L. Brown from the 
 National American Exchange Bank on the 8th instant, being the proceeds of collections 
 by said last-mentioned bank on accounts of the defendants. 
 
 C. H. JOEDAN, ad interim. 
 
 E. 
 
 At a special term of the supremp court of the State of New York, held at the oourt- 
 ':ou8e in the city of New York, on the 13th day of October, 1869. Present : Hon. Al- 
 lert Cardozo, justice. 
 
 ChAEUSS J. OSBORN ) 
 
 against \ 
 
 The Nkw York Gold Exchange Bank. ) 
 
 William M. Lloyd aito othbks i 
 
 against > 
 
 The New York Gold Exchange Bank. ) 
 
 Benjamin F. Carver and others 1 
 
 against > 
 
 The New York Gold Exchange Bank, y 
 
 An order having been heretofore made by this court at a special term thereof on the 
 twenty-ninth day of September, 1869, in the first above entitled action, by which Augns- 
 tus L. Brown was, pending a motion for the appointment of a receiver therein, ap- 
 pointed receiver in the meantime, of the moneys, property, effects, and franchises 
 of the New York Gold Exchange Bank, and said Augustus L. Brown, as required by 
 said order, executed, together with two sureties, a bond to the people of the State of 
 New York in the penalty of ten thousand dollars, which was approved by a justice of 
 this court, and filed on said twenty-ninth day of September, 1869; 
 
 And thereafter in each of the two other above entitled actions, the said Augustus 
 L.Brown was also appointed receiver of the same property in those actions; 
 
 And another order in the three above entitled actions having been made by this court 
 at special term thereof, on the ninth day of October, 1869, directing certain payments 
 to be made by said Augustus L. Brown, and authorizing him to retain certain fees and 
 disbursements ; 
 
 And thereafter on the same day another order of this court having been made at 
 special term thereof, appointing Conrad N. Jordan receiver of the New York Gold Ex- 
 change Bank, ad interim, in the place and stead of Augustus L. Brown, and on the 
 eleventh day of October, 1869, said Augustus L. Brown having transferred and deliv- 
 ered to the said Jordan, as such receiver ad interim, all the property, moneys, effects 
 and francliises of the said the New York Gold Exchange Bank which came to the pos- 
 session of said Augustus L. Brown under the said order Of this court, dated September 
 twenty-ninth, 1869, excepting only therefrom the sums of money which were paid or 
 H, Eep. 31 i 
 
50 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 retained by the said Augnstus L. Brown, under the' said order of this court dated the 
 ninth day of October, 1869, as appears by the receipt of the said Jordan filed here-with; 
 Now on reading and iiling the said receipt of the said Jordan and the schedule of 
 property talsen by said Augustus L. Brown, as such receiver, and by him transferred 
 to said Jordan and the other papers annexed to said receipt, showing that said Augus- 
 tus L. Brown has accounted for, transferred and delivered to said Jordan as such re- 
 ceiver ad interim, all the property, money, effects and franchises of the said bank 
 which came to his hand, excepting only the sums jiaid out and retained therefrom un- 
 der said order dated October 9, 1869, and on motion of A. J. Vanderpoel, of counsel lor 
 said Augustus L. Brown — 
 
 It is ordered that the said Augnstus L.Brown be, and he hereby is, discharged from 
 all duties and responsibilities as receiver vmder the said order dated the 29th day of 
 September, 1869, and under the several orders made in the second and third above en- 
 titled actions appointing him receiver therein ; and further, it is ordered that the bond 
 executed by said Augustus L. Brown and his sureties, and filed in this court on said 
 29th day of September, 1869, is hereby cancelled and discharged, and said Brown and 
 his said sureties released and discharged from all liability thereupon ; and the clerk of - 
 this court is directed to cancel the same. 
 
 I, Charles E. Loew, clerk of the said city and county, and clerk of the supreme court 
 of said State for said county, do certify that I have compared the preceding with 
 the original order discharging receiver and canceling bond and receipt of C. N. Jor- 
 dan and schedules and papers annexed thereto on file in my oiSce, and that the same 
 are correct transcripts therefrom and of the whole of such originals. 
 
 In witness whereof, I have hereunto subscribed my name and affixed my official seal 
 this 13th day of October, 1869. 
 
 ti" 8.] CHAELES E. LOEW, Clerk 
 
 Supremo court. 
 
 Henky N. Smith, Jay Gouhd, Hbney H. MAKTm, and 
 James B. Bach, plaintiffs, 
 against 
 John F. Underhill, as president of the New York 
 Gold Exchange, Thomas P. Akers, as secretary of said 
 Exchange, James B. Hodgskin, Thomas F. B. Parker, and 
 Eiohard B. Whittemore, John Bonner, and Arthiir L. Sew- 
 ell, defendants. 
 
 It appearing satisfactorily to me by the complaint duly verified by the plaintiffs that 
 sufficient grounds for an order of injunction exist, I do hereby order and enjoin, 
 
 1. That the defendants, James B. Hodgskin, Thomas F. B. Parker, and Richard B. 
 Whittemore, refrain from arbitrating or deciding or attempting to arbitrate or decide 
 the claims of the defendants, John Bonner and Company, against the plaintiffs, or either 
 of the said claims. 
 
 2. That the defendants, John F. Underbill, Thomas P. Akers, and the New York 
 Gold Exchange, and each of its officers and members, refrain from expelling or attempt- 
 ing to expel the plaintiff, Henry N. Smith, from the New York Gold Exchange, and 
 from suspending or in any manner interfering with him in his right and privilege of 
 attending the said Exchange and transacting business therein. 
 
 3. That the defendants, John Bonner and Arthur L. Sewell, their ao-ents, attorneys, 
 and servants, refrain from pressing their pretended claims against the plaintiffs, or 
 either of them, before the arbitration committee of the New York Gold Exchange and 
 from taking any proceedings thereon or in relation thereto, except in this action ' 
 
 GEOEGE G. BABNAED, J. S. C. 
 New Yore, Deoemier 29, 1869. 
 
 ■Injunction by order. 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 15, 1870. 
 
 Henet M, Benedict sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chadbmajm : 
 
 Question. Please state your residence and occupation.— Answer. Hive 
 at Greenwich, Connecticut ; my business isin New York. I have been out 
 of the business which I followed for some twenty years. I took charo-e 
 of the affairs of the Gold Exchange association four years ago and 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 51 
 
 organized the Gold Exchange Bant, of which I was president for three 
 years. I resigned in October last. Since then I have some business 
 connection with two or three enterprises which occupy my time. 
 
 Q. Please state in your own way what you know of the causes, history. 
 and results of the gold panic in September last ; also, state the history and 
 character of the Gold Exchange Bank with which you were recently 
 connected. — ^A. The bank was organized on the 11th of December, three 
 years ago — in 1866 — for the purpose of carrying on a clearing system, 
 for the transactions by leading houses doing business in the two cur- 
 rencies of gold and paper. The object was simply to diminish the risk 
 and expense of those exchanges. The forms adopted were based upon 
 the clearing-house practice, as organized partially in London, and also 
 in New York, among the banks, for settling their balances, instead of 
 detailed statements.- Perhaps it would be desirable to present to the 
 committee the clearing plan, which can be done in a few words. I can 
 also exhibit before the committee the papers and blanks used in that 
 process. The bank was organized under the .general banking law of tha 
 State of New York, for the purpose, primarily, of receiving and deliver- 
 ing gold. That is the language of the charter, I believe. The capital 
 of the bank was for a million 6f dollars, with the privilege of increasing. 
 
 In the settlements made two classes of documents were used ; one 
 blank for receiving from, and the other for delivering to. Two men 
 make a bargain ; one buys and the other sells, or one borrows and the 
 other lends ; one is to receive, the other to deliver. These transactions 
 are multiplied during the day, according to orders received and busi- 
 ness to be done. A great many such transactions will have to be set- 
 tled by the same house with various houses. Before the organization 
 of the bank, the system was for the banker to receive the gold and 
 draw his check on some bank for every item. He had to receive a 
 dozen, twenty, or thirty different lots of gold during the day ; the gold 
 would be delivered in coin or certificates, or on check drawn for the 
 amount. To avoid the multiplicity of checking for each transaction, 
 the clearing system was adopted, under which a statement is made of 
 all the transactions of the day, and balance struck and paid over, what- 
 ever it may be, to the proper party. 
 
 There are, I think, about four hundred members entitled to use the 
 clearing-house, who belong to the Gold Exchange, and out of these, 
 probably two or three hundred will send in their statements each day. 
 Balances are made in the case of each statement, and the money paid 
 over ; so that we paid out exactly the amount we received in settling 
 all these transactions. There were some other leading houses, such as 
 Brown Brothers & Co., not members of the Gold Exchange, who had 
 the privilege of clearing at the Gold .Exchange Bank. I have hei-e 
 some specimen sheets, showing the settlements made on the 24th of 
 September. Here is the settlement of Brown Brothers & Co. for that 
 day, showing that they delivered only four parcels of gold, which they 
 paid into the bank, and received from the bank the amount in currency. 
 In addition to these blanks there were two others, called tickets of ad- 
 vice. A would sell gold to B, and they would exchange tickets of ad- 
 vice, corresponding with their settlement of accounts, which were pre- 
 sented at the bank, so that we had two signatures for every transaction 
 with the bankj each party sending his statement and also his advice- 
 ticket, furnishing a perfect check against errors in these settlements. 
 
 The object in organizing the bank was to accomplish safety and econ- 
 omy in these settlements, and under it the settlements were made in 
 perhaps one-fourth of the time, labor, and expense, incurred under the 
 
52 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 old system of exchanges and settlements. The average amount of busi- 
 ness which the books of the bank show, has been about sixty or seventy 
 millions in gold every day during the year. The first year of the bank 
 the average was about sixty millions ; the last year about seventy mil- 
 lions. It should be stated, however, that in making this aggregate 
 each transaction is counted twice over, each sale appearing as so mucli 
 gold sold, a^nd again appearing as so much gold purchased; so that, for 
 the first year, the real transactions would be thirty millions a day. 
 
 On the 24th of September the first interruption in the business of the 
 bank took place which had ever occurred. The difficulties in making 
 settlements for that day grew out of the large number of failures Avhich 
 occurred. We have had before that several failures occurring in one day, 
 but comparatively limited in extent. I have here, for instance, the settle- 
 ment sent in for the 24th of September by Jay Cooke & Co., in which, of 
 the houses named, there were not less than twelve or fifteen failures. 
 These failures grew out of the fact that there had been a very extensive 
 combination made to buy all the gold there was. The estimate of the 
 amount is, of course, vague and indefinite, but probably running up to 
 sixty or eighty millions of dollars. The amount was suddenly called in 
 on that day, and the forcing of a setliement of the entire amount, 
 obliging people to respond and furnish the gold, resulted in these fail- 
 ures. When the settlements came into the clearing-house there wns 
 titter confusion, as you will see from this statement. There would be 
 from a dozen to two dozen mistakes in every settlement ; and the em- 
 barrassment with the bank was in having received thirteen millions of 
 money that day, to find out to whom it belonged. About eight millions 
 of gold had been received, and five or six millions of currency, in certified 
 checks and such dealings as go to make up the usual banking move- 
 ments of that city. The bank was intrusted with the work of finding 
 out to whom that money belonged. We had been in the habit of re- 
 ceiving three, four, and five millions, and in some instances running up 
 to eight millions a day ; but on this day the very large amount received 
 was, as I have stated, complicated by the numerous failures that took 
 place. To have retained in the bank this large amount of money until 
 the time necessary to make the settlement complete had elapsed would 
 have caused the failure of a good many leading houses. For instance, 
 there was a balance due to J. & W. Seligmann & Co. of six hundred 
 and fifty-one thousand dollars. Their statement was tolerably accurate, 
 so that we were enabled to pay over to them the approximate amount 
 of their balance ; and by paying these approximate amounts we endeav- 
 ored to get enough put to prevent a large number of houses from trouble, 
 and possibly bankruptcy. We retained enough in each case, however, 
 to make the bank good in the final adjustment of accounts. It may be 
 asked how a system which had worked for three years without a single 
 mistake or interruption, and with perfect success, should be overthrown 
 in one day. I can only answer that it was because it was in the power 
 of certain men to combine and make contracts to the extent of sixty or 
 eighty millions, and to wield an amount of capital which would give 
 them credit and position sufQcient to do it, and then, by a sudden call- 
 ing in of their contracts, to force people to a settlement, and make their 
 own price out of it. There is the secret of the difaculty of the gold 
 movement on the 24th of September. The bank officers used aU their 
 energies and their best discretion in unraveling the difficulty. 
 
 The rule has been adopted to pay nothing until all the balances were 
 paid in, but in this case it was absolutely necessary to deviate from that 
 rule. Ordinarily, all the balances must be paid by half-past twelve 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 53 
 
 o'clock, and by half-past one o'clock the bank is ready to pay out its 
 balances. 
 
 By Mr. Judd : 
 
 Q. Were you in the habit of doing business as a bank as well as a 
 clearing-house?— A. The two departments were kept separate. We al- 
 ways did business as a bank, made loans, and carried on a general bank- 
 ing business. The money received through the clearing department 
 was paid into the bank, and again checked out by the clearing depart- 
 ment. 
 
 Q. Previous to this time, had it been your habit to pay out mar- 
 gins, through your banking department, while the current business of 
 the day went on, and before you struck your balances 1 — A. The bank 
 had no margins. We knew nothing of the nature of the transactions, 
 which might be by purchase and sale, or by loaning. We simply re- 
 ceived the statements and made the settlements. 
 
 By Mr. Sjhth : 
 Q. Were Gould and Fisk customers of the bank ?— A. James Fisk, 
 jr., was not a customer of our bank, nor did we know him in any way 
 whatever. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Did your banking department certify checks during these two 
 days — the 23d and 24:th of September ; and if so, to what amount ? — 
 A. I cannot say as to the amount we certified checks. We had, per- 
 haps, two or three hundred depositors, and we certified the checks of 
 dealers as they came in, as other banks do, but not a dollar beyond the 
 amount of money on deposit in each case. Our bank has never certified 
 checks unless the money was in the bank on deposit ; and that rule was 
 not violated on these days, to my knowledge. The only instance, if any 
 at all occurred on that day, was of some of these parties who had bal- 
 ances coming to them in the clearing department having them trans- 
 ferred from the clearing to the banking department. 
 
 Q. Who did that ? — A. Not more than two or three parties. 
 
 Q. Did the firm of which Jay Gould is a partner get any balances in 
 advance? — ^A. No, sir. They had that day a balance in currency 
 against them, which they paid. They had no currency account in the 
 bank ; they had a gold account, which, however, did not amount to 
 much. They did not bank with us as a rule. I think they had no bank 
 transactions with us that day at all. 
 
 Q. State the amount of transactions of your clearing department 
 on the 23d and 24th of September?— A. The 23d of September there 
 was no difftculty in our business; the exchanges and clearances went 
 on as usual. The amount which the books of the bank show was 
 about three hundred millions; I think, perhaps, three hundred and 
 twenty millions. Of the transactions of the 24th of September we have 
 never yet had a footing. I should say they would exceed three hundred 
 millions. That is to say, one hundred and fifty millions sold, and one 
 hundred and fifty millions delivered. One reason why these large 
 amounts figure on our books is that the entire loan movement in gold is 
 subject to renewal every day. There is a market price of loans as well 
 as of gold, and the market fluctuates, causing a constant changing of 
 loans; and these loans renewed every day figure as a large proportion of 
 the business of the clearing-house ; and this is a business entirely legiti- 
 mate and proper. Nearly the entire foreign trade of this country is carried 
 on through these gold transactions, and must be as long as we have two 
 
54 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 currencies. Here are twenty people whose business involves gold amounts 
 to perhaps a million or two millions a day in their transactions with dif- 
 ferent houses. They borrow gold, and agree from day to day on the 
 rate at which it shall be carried, varying according to the fluctuations 
 of the market. And these transactions appear from day to day as a 
 part of the transactions of the clearing-house. A. T. Stewart & Co., 
 for instance, will have two or three mDlion dollars to loan, which will be 
 borrowed by one broker one day, and by another broker the' next day, 
 and all this going through the clearing-house. We have nothing to do 
 with making these transactions ; the parties make their own bargains, 
 and send their tickets of advice to the banker ; A sending B's ticket, 
 and B sending A's ticket ; one says receive that, and the other says de- 
 liver that. The responsibility of the transaction is between themselves, 
 and we know nothing about it-. 
 
 By the Chaiejmaw: 
 
 Q. I understand your bank was closed on the 24th. Please state the 
 reason of that ? — A. No, sir, the bank was not closed ; it was kept open 
 for the purpose of endeavoring to find out who owned this money. We 
 continued to pay out and to adjust settlements on the 24th and 25th ; 
 Sunday was the 26th. We commenced again on Monday the process of 
 settling up, and had succeeded in paying out, within a half a million of 
 dollars, all the money which came to us on the 24th, when there was a 
 receiver appointed, and the affairs of the bank went into his hands. 
 They became very much involved on account of the large failures that 
 occurred after Monday morning. 
 
 Q. When did the clearing department open regularly for business 
 again? — A. It opened again in November. During that time we were 
 engaged in endeavoring to settle up transactions of that day, at least 
 the receivers were for us. 
 
 By Mr. Judd: 
 
 Q. What do you mean by paying out approximate balances 1 — A. If 
 a balance of half a million was apparently due a party we would reserve 
 perhaps a hundred thousand, paying four hundred thousand dollars. 
 
 Q. What brokers drew out balances during the business hours of the 
 24th '3 — A. Probably two-thirds of those having transactions at the clear- 
 ing-house. I suppose such balances were paid out to over a hundred of 
 them. I paid out between seven and eight millions dollars in that way 
 to brokers who had sent in their statements, which statements appeared 
 to be tolerably within the rule. 
 
 By Mr. SMITH: 
 
 Q. State whether the banking department was responsible for pay- 
 ments to the clearing department ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Judd: 
 
 Q. Had you an idea that there was a gold clique or ring whose opera- 
 tions caused these very large transactions ? — A. Yes, sir. I knew some- 
 thing was going on, of course. 
 
 Q. Did you know the names of the brokers who were understood to 
 be operating? — A. Yes, sir. I do not know that I was ever told that 
 one broker or another was in the rjng, but I judged from facts that came 
 before me of the relationship existing between them. 
 
 Q. Would your books show what amount was drawn out by brokers 
 supposed to be in the ring, in the shape of approximate balances dur- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 55 
 
 ing the business hours of the 24th of September ?— A. I think they 
 would. 
 
 Q. Could you make up such a statement ? — ^A. Perhaps I could. The 
 diflftculty is, however, that theparties who were operating for the leading 
 men also had separate transactions of their own, and for account of other 
 parties. Such a statement, at any rate, would be of very little service to 
 you, for you will recollect there were no balances actually struck. These 
 parties simply drew out approximate balances, and a statement of these 
 would give no indication as to whether the parties made or lost money. 
 
 Q. Take, for instance, the case of Speyers, who was aseller that day ; 
 could you state how much money he obtained from the bank during the 
 business hours of the day ?— A. The balances, as a general thing, are 
 very small, and would give no idea of the magnitude of the actual 
 transactions. 
 
 Q. Was it your custom, in the operations of the bank, to pay approxi- 
 mate balances ? — A. No, sir. We did it that day for the simple reason 
 that there was thirteen million dollars, which, if we retained until the 
 actual balances could be ascertained, would produce very heavy failures. 
 
 By the Chaieman: 
 
 Q. Do you keep separate accounts, exhibiting the clearing business 
 and the banking business separate from each other ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there any reason for closing the bank, outside of the compli- 
 cations in these settlements of the 24th? — A. Injunctions were served 
 on the bank as early as Saturday, to prevent the settlement of certain 
 accounts, which we at once threw out of the movement. The receiver- 
 ship, which was the great trouble in making our settlements, was sued 
 out on the petition of Charles G. Osborne, who was supposed to be one 
 of the brokers of the ring. This was when we had paid out all the 
 money received on that day, except about half a million of dollars. Suit 
 was brought for this amount, and without a hearing, without any chance 
 of showing our case at all, and without any standing in court properly, 
 Judge Cardozo grants this receivership, and puts us into the hands of 
 the sheriff and receiver. This was on the 29th of September. Mr. 
 Osborne's application was on the allegation of thirty thousand dollars 
 being due to him for an account, while we had in the bank a receipt for 
 that amount, with his signature to it. Yet, on that allegation the judge 
 gtants the receivership, and takes out of our hands the papers and books 
 and funds of the bank, and without giving us a hearing in court at all. 
 And we not only had the receipt of Osborne for that amount on which he 
 sued out the receivership, but he never presented his demand at all sub- 
 sequently, and he was not recognized at all in the final settlement which 
 was made. 
 
 Q. What other injunctions were served upon you? — A. The other in- 
 junctions were simply to restrain us from paying out money to certain 
 parties. They did not interfere with the general opei'ations of the bank, 
 afld these cases were all settled out of court. 
 
 Q. Were there any injunctions ordering you to pay specific sums ? — 
 A. That was in a second order of the court appointing another receiver. 
 Tliefirst receiver was appointed temporarily; the second receiver was 
 appointed, as was supposed, in the interest of the bank. But the judge 
 ordered the first receiver to pay nearly the entire amount of balance on 
 hand to certain parties before he was to be discharged from th^ receiver- 
 ship. The order stated specific sums, and the names of the parties to 
 whom they were to be paid. 
 
 Q. Were you represented in court by counsel? — Yes, sir; but there 
 
56 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 was no hearing, and we never had any standing in court at all, except 
 by arrangement. These proceedings cost the bank in lawyer's and re- 
 ceiver's fees about sixty thousand dollars. 
 
 Q. How much was paid to the receiver ?— A. The judge gave to Mr. 
 Brown, the first receiver, fifteen thousand dollars ; and gave his partner, 
 who was a lawyer, five thousand dollars. The first receiver continued 
 in charge for ten days, and the next for fifteen or twenty days ; then we 
 got the bank back. 
 
 By Mr. Burchaed : 
 
 Q. State whether this order, on which these specific sums were paid, 
 was not a compromise order. — A. Yes, sir; it was an order in which the 
 lawyers employed by the bank are supposed to have acquiesced. 
 
 Q. Did the plaintiff give bonds upon getting this preliminary injunc- 
 tion 1 — A. I am not aware of it. The receiver, however, gave bonds to 
 the amount of ten thousand dollars. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. State whether the bank, aside from the expense which you have 
 stated, incident to the receivership, lost any money in consequence of 
 the panic; if so,' how much? — A. The bank lost, for numerous claims, 
 undoubtedly, b<^tween one hundred and seventy -five and two hundred 
 thousand dollars. Some of the claims are good, and probably a consid- 
 erable portion of them may ultimately be realized. They are now in 
 process of suit. The bank lost, altogether, in consequence of these 
 transactions, between three and four hundred thousand dollars. The 
 loss occurred by precipitating the settlement of disputed accounts, in 
 addition to what was lost by the receivership. These claims are mostly 
 against parties who ordered us to make certain deliveries, and the parties 
 to take the gold from the bank. We called upon them to take gold, but 
 they refused to do it. 
 
 Q. State whether you or any of the ofdcers or stockholders of the 
 Gold Exchange Bank were engaged or interested in purchasing or sell- 
 ing gold on the 23d and 24th of September. — A. None of the officers of 
 the bank were engaged, to my knowledge, to the extent of a dollar, iu 
 these transactions. As far as I am concerned, I had no interest in gold 
 or stocks, and had not had for a long time. As to the stockholders, 
 most of them were members of the board, and I suppose most of them 
 were interested iu the market in one way or another. 
 
 By Mr. Judd : 
 Q. Can you give the names of any of these ? — A. There are seventy 
 or eighty stockholders ; probably fifty of them are members of the Gold 
 Exchange, and were doing business in gold. 
 
 By the Ghaikman: 
 
 Q. Have you a printed list of the names of the stockholders of the 
 bank? — A. Not here; I can furnish it tg the committee. * 
 
 Q. State what interviews, if any, you had with Fisk and Gould, or 
 with Smith, Gould & Martin, during the day of the 24th of September; 
 
 and state the substance of such interview A. I saw Fisk for the first 
 
 time to talk with him on the morning of the 24th of September. Knowing 
 the excitement there was in New York on the subject of gold, I was un- 
 der an apprehension that the bank would not be able to complete its busi- 
 ness during that day with the large movement then pending. I found 
 Mr. Fisk sitting with Mr. Gould in the back office of William Heath & 
 Co. I said I had called to ask whether this was to be the settling day 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 57 
 
 for closing these contracts. Mr. Fisk hesitated at first, and then said, 
 "I might as well teU you that this is the cjay." I said tliat I did not 
 propose to get between the upper and the nether millstone in this move- 
 ment, and that I did not propose that the bank should clear any of his 
 transactions that day. He was very indiiferent about it; said he came 
 down to do business, and expected no trouble. I went awayajjid con- 
 sulted with some of the leading men. I found that they were nofwilling 
 the action 1 had proposed should be taken. We had contracted to con- 
 duct the business of the clearing-house; but it became a serious ques- 
 tion whether, if we declined balances when parties offered them, we 
 would not be responsible; whether, having been appointed to receive 
 these balances, we were not bound to goon; and whether we would 
 not be responsible for any failures that might occur, if we did not. I 
 found that none of the directors or dealers were willing to take the 
 course I had suggested; and, therefore, I gave it up. I afterward saw 
 Mr. Smith, of Smith, Gould & Martin, who said they were making a great 
 many settlements outside. This was about ten o'clock. I said that I 
 thought Mr. Fisk did not talk right. He said^ " Fisk does not know 
 what to say," and remarked that they were settling outside, and that he 
 thought we would have no trouble; that they would help us all they 
 could; that transactions were being rapidly settled outside. He called 
 his partner, Mr. Gould, who gave assent to what he had said; and I left 
 in the hope that through the assistance of these outside settlements we 
 probably could get through the business of the day. 
 
 Q. Had you any other interviews with any of those men? — A. I saw 
 Mr. Smith later in the day, when he came in to pay his balances, and again 
 on Saturday and Sunday; and knowing that they had large interests in 
 the movement, and in getting the various parties to settle up their bal- 
 ances, I asked him whether they would not guarantee the bank against 
 loss in passing accounts of certain dealers, amounting in the aggregate 
 to four or five hundred thousand dollars, supposing it would be for 
 their interest to do so in facilitating the settlement. 
 
 By Mr. Judd : 
 
 Q. Who were these parties you wanted to make good? — A. There 
 were fifteen or twenty brokers named, who had failed to make their 
 amount good. I did not then know much about the relationship which 
 existed between certain brokers and this movement. But in the settle- 
 jtnent of the accounts, if the statements in these papers were thrown 
 out and their balances not paid, it would throw back a large amount of 
 high-priced gold upon them; and I thought, therefore, it would be for 
 their interest to have the settlement. 
 
 Q. You understood who these parties were when you caUed on Fisk ? — 
 A. I had a pretty good idea who they were. 
 
 Q. From all you had ascertained, whom did you understand to be at 
 the head of the movement ? — A. I had no opinion about these matters, 
 derived from any accurate information ; but I had made up my mind to 
 apj)ly to Gould and Fisk, the head of the affair ; and from the manner 
 in which they handled various transactions, as they came up, I was 
 satisfied that they were the parties. 
 
 Q. And you were further satisfied that the brokers, whose accounts 
 you wanted them to guarantee, were in their interest 1 — A. Not entirely 
 so ; but, as I said, it was for their interest to have these transactions 
 settled ; and if the accounts of these fifteen or twenty brokers were 
 thrown out, it would so complicate matters as perhaps to throw back on 
 them a large amount of higl^-priced gold. After considerable conversa- 
 
58 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 tion, I reduced the number of accounts to be protected to three or four j 
 but they were under no obligations to take care of any of them ; it was 
 simply a matter of whether they were to make money by the operation 
 or not. The mistake on the part of the bank was in assuming certam 
 statements to be good, which proved otherwise. 
 
 Q. "Whose statements were these?— A. There were some fifteen or 
 twentj*, I do not now remember the nam^s of all of them. I think 
 Chase & McOlure was one; James Boyd another; Galway Hunter 
 another; J. C. Anderson & Co., David Tweedie, C. C. Parks & Co., 
 Durant & Irwin, and others, whose names I do not recollect. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation, during the days of the panic, with 
 any offtcer of the government of the United States, or of the sub-treas- 
 ury? — A. ]l!}^o, sir; I did not. 
 
 Q. Did any such officer make any settlement in your bank ? — ^A. Xo, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Did any broker of any officer known to you, Tiave any account in 
 your bank on those days ? — A. Not that 1 know of ; there is no business 
 relation between our bank and the Treasury Department. Originally 
 there was between O. M. Myers & Co., who sold gold for Mr. McCulloch. 
 All that ceased at the close of the last administration. 
 
 [The witness was here directed to prepare and furnish to the commit- 
 tee a list of all the loans of the Gold Exchange Bank, for the week pre- 
 ceding and including the 24th of September, 1869 ; also all the certiiied 
 checks of the bank for the same period ; also a list of- the stockholders 
 of the bank, and of those who received apijroximate balances on the 24th 
 of September, with the amount under such balances ; also the order of 
 the court, requiring specific sums to be paid in the settlement of bal- 
 ances.] 
 
 By Mr. JuDD : 
 
 Q. Is it not a fact that every party to whom these sums of money 
 were ordered to be paid by court, was a broker in the ring? — ^A. Yes; I 
 think they were understood to be. 
 
 Q. How much, under this order of the court, was paid out ? — A. My 
 impression is, between three and four hundred thousand dollars. 
 
 By Mr. Btjkchakd : 
 Q. You say there were facts which led you to understand there was a 
 movement among the brokers that would result in raising the price of 
 gold. What were those facts ? — A. The general course of operations in 
 gold; the tendency on the part of a set of men to buy and hold gold; 
 that everybody who wanted to borrow gold had to apply to certain 
 parties. The remark was made generally, " you cannot get any gold 
 this morning, unless you buy of those in the ring." These facts, in con- 
 nection with the statement by some leaky persons, who gave out that 
 there was to be a movement on foot which would corner gold, led me to 
 the conclusion I have stated. Gold was not scarce before this day ; on 
 the contrary, it was rather heavy upon the market. These parties who 
 bought gold, would lend to anybody who wanted to borrow. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. Do you know where these parties kept their gold on deposit ? A. 
 
 It was not kept on deposit ; it was loaned out to parties. 
 
 Q. Who were the parties that loaned it ? — A. The brokers of this 
 ring; the principal of whom were William Heath ,& Co., E. K. WiUard 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 59 
 
 & Co., and Lockwood & Davenport. I think there were about twenty- 
 brokers who were supposed to be operating for the clique ; I do not 
 remember all the names. • 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. Was there any of their gold or certificates of deposit in your 
 bank?-;- A. No, sir; we had none of their gold. 
 
 By Mr. LYNCH : 
 Q. Was or not the fact that this movement was to culminate on this 
 day a matter of newspaper talk ? — ^A. Yes ; it was a matter of common 
 talk in the papers ; and my impression is that the money articles of that 
 period would convey about as nearly a statement of the facts that 
 existed as you can get. 
 
 'By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. Have you any reason to believe, or have you any information upon 
 which to predicate any belief, than any officer of the government was 
 interested in this gold panic, or in the speculations of this clique ? — A. 
 I have no personal knowledge of it. I gather through statements made 
 publicly that one or more patties interested in the government had to 
 do, directly or indirectly, with this movement. I have no personal 
 knowledge. 
 
 Q. Have you had any information, directly or indirectly, jfrom any 
 officer of the government, or anybody speaking for them, in relation to 
 this matter at that time, or since ? — A. I never exchanged a word with 
 any officer of the government, nor with any parties speaking for them. 
 I have heard brokers say that certain parties were interested. 
 
 Q. What brokers said so 1 — ^A. 1 have only heard it repeated as the 
 general rumor of the day. No communication has been made to me of 
 any names of parties connected with the government. 
 
 Washington, January 17, 1870. 
 
 John Bonner sworn and examined. 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Question. State your residence and occupation. — ^Answer. I reside in 
 Eichmond County, New York. I do business in the city of New York. 
 I am a stock-broker, and president of the Bankers' and Brokers' Asso- 
 ciation. 
 
 Q. Were you acquainted with the general movement in gold during 
 the month of September last ? — ^A. I was. 
 
 Q. State how the price of gold ruled during the week ending the 25th 
 of September.— A. I think gold opened in that week at about 37. It 
 rose on Friday to 62J. It fell subsequently on Friday and on Saturday 
 to about 33, 1 think. 
 
 Q. Explain, in brief, the circumstances attending its rise, as you know 
 them. — ^A. There was a powerful clique engaged in bulling gold, and 
 they forced it up by their pui'chases to 43J on Friday morning. It was 
 then suddenly advanced in the course of two hours by the clique brokers 
 to 62J, which price it reached between 11 and 12 o'clock on that day. 
 It fell as rapidly under sales, by other clique brokers, to 33 before the 
 close of the day. 
 
 Q. Were you a broker for the clique?— A. I sold gold for the clique. 
 
60 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. State to the committeo what persons you understood, from your' 
 knowledge as one of the brokers, to have been members of the clique ?— 
 A. So far as I know, the members of the clique were Jay Gould, J. Fisk, 
 jr., Henry M. Smith, Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., WiUlam Belden, E. K. 
 Willard, and others, of whom I am not certain. 
 
 Q. State how many firms these persons whom you have named repre- 
 sented ?— A. The brokers of the clique were Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., 
 and William Belden & Co. 
 
 Q. Do these two firms include all the persons you have named as 
 belonging to the clique 1 — A. They do not. J. Fisk is in no firm. He 
 is a speculator and a director of the Erie railroad. 
 
 Q. By whom were you employed to buy or sell gold? — ^A. By Carver 
 &Co. 
 
 Q. Did you understand that they belonged to the clique? — A. .They 
 represented the clique. They were brokers of the clique. 
 
 Q. What instructions, if any, did you receive in respect to your pur- 
 chases of gold, as to the rate at which you were to buy, and as to the 
 persons with whom you were to make transactions ? — A. I made no pur- 
 chases ; they were all sales. I was instrupted not to sell to Speyers or 
 Belden. 
 
 Q. Was any reason assigned in your instructions why you were not 
 to sell to them ? — A. I do not think there was. It was obvious to my 
 mind. 
 
 Q. What, in your judgment, was the reason? — ^A. Because they 
 were buying for the parties that 1 was selling for. 
 
 Q. Did you receive orders from anybody else, besides the persons 
 named ? — A. I did not. . 
 
 Q. Have you any claim against the clique, or had you any dealings 
 with the clique which have led to any claim or difficulty ? — A. I have 
 large claims against the clique. 
 
 Q. State the characterer of them? — A. They arose from sales of 
 gold made to Speyers. 
 
 Q. Have you made your settlements, or attempted to make them ? — 
 A. I have attempted to collect the money due to me without success. 
 
 Q. In what way have you attempted it, and what has been your dif- 
 ficulty in the way of settling them ? — A. I have sued the clique, that is 
 to say. Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., before the arbitration committee of 
 the Gold Exchange, and have been stopped by injunction issued by Judge 
 Barnard. 
 
 Q. Have you that injunction with you ? — A. I have a copy of it. 
 
 (Witness presents copy of the injunction, which is annexed to the tes- 
 timony of Mr. Hodgskin.) 
 
 Q. Was this injunction served on you personally ? — ^A. It was. 
 
 Q. By whom ? — A. By a clerk of Field and Sherman, counsel for 
 Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. The concluding paragraph enjoins me 
 from pursuing my claim and from taking any proceedings thereon except 
 in that action. 
 
 Q. How has that placed you; what remedy have you now, if anyf 
 and have you tried to use that remedy ? — ^A. I am advised by my law- 
 yer that I am enjoined by that injunction from proceeding in any court 
 or before any arbitration committee to coUect the money that is due 
 to me. 
 
 Q. In what way, if any, are you permitted to proceed? — ^A. I am 
 permitted apparently to proceed only in an action in which I am defend- 
 ant and in which the parties whom I am suing are the plaintiffs, (Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Co.) 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 61 
 
 Q. Do you understand therefore that you are shut up merely to de- 
 fense ? — A. Merely as defendant. 
 
 Q. At what time was this injunction served upon you, relatively to 
 the time that you brought your suit before the arbitration commit- 
 tee? — A. I cannot recollect the dates precisely. I brought suit. They 
 sought delay to put in their answer. It was granted to them. At the 
 expiration of the delay they sought fresh delay. I resisted the applica- 
 tion, and the committee overruled their request. Within half an hour 
 of that time they served notice on the committee declaring that they 
 withdrew from their jurisdiction. The committee thereupon rendered a 
 judgment by default in my favor, and within 10 minutes of their render- 
 ing judgment by default the injunction was served forbidding them to 
 proceed with the case and forbidding me to prosecute the case. 
 
 Q. Did you summon any witnesses in your case ? — ^A. I had not got 
 so far. They never joined issue. 
 
 Q. Have you had any trouble in getting at your witnesses ; has any 
 difficulty interposed between you and that purpose? — A. I had sought 
 testimony and inquired for witnesses. The principal witness, after de- 
 murring to my request that he should come and be a witness when the 
 case came on, has since, unexpectedly, and suddenly, and under circum- 
 stances of secrecy, departed lor Europe. His name is William Heath. 
 Other important witnesses, Lounsberry and Eanshaw, have also gone to 
 Europe. 
 
 Q. What do you know of the past history and present situation of 
 the Tenth National Bank of New York ?— A. The Tenth National Bank 
 was originally a branch of the Shoe and Leather Bank. At the time the 
 stock business became very active in New York, about six years ago, 
 the banking business among the brokers became very profitable, and 
 the Shoe and Leather Bank established a branch in Wall street, to carry 
 on this business. This branch existed some two or three years, or per- 
 haps four, untU the bank examiner or the bank authorities' decided that 
 it was not competent for a bank to have two banking houses in the same 
 city. The Wall street branch of the Shoe and Leather Bank then ceased 
 to exist, and a certain quantity of stock was issued to represent it. 
 That stock was taken by directors of the Shoe and Leather Bank, and a 
 new bank was established under the name of the Tenth National Bank; 
 and this bank has ever since then continued to exist in Wall street. A 
 few months ago the bulk of the stock was acquired by Gould, Pisk, and 
 others, and about a week or ten days ago a change in the direction was 
 made, in which the old direction has gone out, and an entirely new di- 
 rection gone in, composed of the leaders of what is known in New York 
 as the Tammany Eing. 
 
 Q. State what transactions, if any, you have had with that bank 
 during or near the time of the gold'panic?— A. The only transactions 
 of any consequence I had was, 1 think, on the 23d of September, or at 
 all events during that week. A report reached me that the bank was 
 in trouble. I went to the Bankers and Brokers' Asssociation, of which 
 I am president, and inquired if we had any of their checks. I found in 
 the drawer a certified check of theirs for about $28,000. I went over to 
 the bank with that check and demanded greenbacks for it. They evaded 
 my demand and asked for delay. I sent the check to the maker of it 
 (Stokes & Saltenstall,) and told them the circumstances, and they gave 
 me another and a good check. The Tammany Eing were owners but not 
 directors then. 
 
 Q. What reason was assigned for the non-payment of the check ?— 
 A. No specific one, and no specific refusal was made. I think the pres- 
 
62 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 ident said " What should we do if everybody came upon us for green- 
 baclis P 
 
 Q. In general, have you any other personal knowledge of matters 
 directly in consideration before this committee ? — ^A. I do not recollect. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge as to who the owners of the Tenth Na- 
 tional Bank were during the panic ? — ^A. The purchase of stock had 
 taken place prior to the panic. 
 
 Q. How do you know it 1 — A. I know it by statements of officers of 
 the bank. 
 
 Q. Who were the officers of the bank ? — A. Mr. Stout was the cash- 
 ier, and Mr. Dickinson was the president. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Corbin interested in that bank in any way ? — ^A. I think 
 not ; I never heard that he was. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Butterfleld'?— A. I never heard of it 
 
 By the Chaikman : 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of your own of any officer of the gov- 
 ernment of the United States, either in Washington or in Kew York, 
 having anything to do with that gold panic ? — A. I have not. 
 
 Q. Prom your knowledge of the whole transaction upon those two 
 days, is it or is it not your opinion that the fall in gold was caused by 
 the sale, or by the notice of sale, of Treasury gold 1 — A. I do not think 
 that that had much to do with it. It was one'of many circumstances. 
 
 Q. State what you think was the principal cause of the break in 
 gold ?^A. In my opinion, the cause of the fall in gold was the settle- 
 ments that were made by persons who were short of gold — private and 
 public settlements. Many of the shorts bought their gold in open mar- 
 ket at 160 ; others went privately to Smith, Gould, Martin & Co.'s office 
 and settled in large amounts. From the hour of those settlements there 
 was no further object in putting iip the market, and the sale of govern- 
 ment gold was, I think, only one of the incidental causes of the Ml. 
 
 Q. Do you think that the panic would have been any more severe if 
 the government had taken no action whatever ? — A. If the government 
 had sold gold the day before, I think the panic would never have taken 
 place. I do not think that the sale of gold on that day made much dif- 
 ference. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. How much did the government sell ? — ^A. Five millions, I have 
 understood. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. How would it have relieved the market to have sold on the day 
 before ? — A. It would have broken the morale of the movement. If the 
 government could sell five millions, it could sell fifty millions. The gov- 
 ernment had eighty millions at the time, and if it had begun to sell, it 
 would have demoralized the bull clique. 
 
 Q. Was it understood that the government could or would sell gold 
 in advance of the amount advertised ? — ^A. Precisely the contrary was 
 understood. The government did not give notice till five minutes before 
 the sale. The prevailing impression was that the goverument would 
 not sell any more gold than was advertised for sale, which was a small 
 amount — a million at a time and at wide intervals. It was understood 
 by the parties in the confidence of the clique that the government would 
 sell no more than that. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 63 
 
 By Mr. Packer : 
 Q, Do you mean that the clique had made their sales of all the gold 
 that they expected to sell to the shorts, and had thus made all the profit 
 they expected to make, and that for that reason they stopped running 
 up the market? — A. Precisely. 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 17, 1870. 
 
 Albert Spetees sworn and examined. 
 By the CHAiEMiN : 
 
 Question. State your place of residence, your place of business, what 
 your occupation is now, and what it was in September last. — Answer. 
 My residence is New York ; my place of business is 33 Broad street ; I 
 was a gold broker in September last, and am still such. 
 
 Q. Are you personally familiar with the moTcment of gold during the 
 latter half of the month of September last, and specifically on the 23d 
 and 24th days of that month ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What part did you take in that transaction? — ^A. I acted as 
 broker. 
 
 Q. For whom ? — A. Principally for WUliam Belden" & Co., on Thurs- 
 day. 
 
 Q. State your relation to the transactions on those two days, naming 
 the parties for whom yon bought or sold ; the total amounts which you 
 bought or sold ; the returns that you made ; and the interviews that 
 yon had with the parties concerned, so as to make a connected history 
 of the whole transaction. 
 
 Witness. I suppose that there is no objection to my referring to some 
 notes that I have. 
 
 The Chairman. You may use any memoranda to aid your recollection. 
 
 Witness. I have it all in writing, and therefore I may refer to my 
 notes. The first principal transactions that I had with Wm. Belden & 
 Co. were on Tuesday the 21st of September. I was asked by Mr. Belden 
 to buy a million of gold at 137J, which I could not get at the price fixed. 
 I got $790,000. At the same time I loaned out for Mr. Belden & Co. 
 that day $500,000 in gold, which he sent in. The next day I bought 
 the balance up to the million, and got some small further orders. On 
 Wednesday I bought for the same firm of Wm. Belden & Co. about four 
 and a half millions. Mr. Belden required me that day to loan out some 
 gold for him under compensation, as he had too much to do in his own 
 business. I had that day to loan, altogether, $3,170,000. I only loaned 
 out $1,670,000. The rest he took himself. 
 
 Now we come to the 23d of September, Thursday. I went to Mr. 
 Belden about 9 o'clock of the morning of that day. When I entered, 
 Mr. Belden told me he was sorry I had not come before ; that he had 
 sent for me, and had given large orders already. With that he said, 
 " Come to my back office now with me." There he introduced me to 
 Mr. risk and Mr. Gould, whom I did not know before. Mr. Smith, 
 of Smith, Gould & Martin, was also present. Him I had known before. 
 After a few minutes Mr. Fisk nodded his head to Mr. Smith and said, 
 " Here is Mr. Speyers." Then Mr. Smith told me to come quickly over 
 to his office. Before I got into his private ofSce, in the back part of his 
 office, >he said, " Buy quickly two millions of gold and report to Belden." 
 That was on Thursday morning. I began to buy gold in the gold-room, 
 
64 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION, 
 
 and in the mean time Mr. Belden came in and told me, " Continue to 
 buy." This was before I had completed the two millions. I hesitated 
 a moment, the amount being so large already. Then he said, " You 
 need not be afraid. In all our purchases the gentlemen whom you saw 
 this morning in my back office are equally interested." These are the 
 gentlemen I have named. 
 
 A little while after Mr. Smith came to the gold-room, Mr. Belden being 
 also present. I said to them, " How about loans f (We had every day 
 to loan the gold.) Then Smith told me not to loan the gold at less than 
 one-sixteenth of one per cent, per day, to be paid by the borrower. I 
 gave the order to my clerk who attends to the loans, but he could not 
 loan at that rate, as other borrowers were loaning at one-thirty-second 
 of one per cent. I reported to Mr. Smith this fact. Then he told me 
 to loan at one-thirty-second, also, and I loaned a little at that rate; but 
 1 Could not loan any large amount, for the same reason that other 
 brokers loaned at less. 
 
 Then Mr. Belden came over, and, on reporting to him my inability to 
 make loans, he told me to loan at the best rates I could, Mr. Belden 
 again repeating that he would pay me liberally for my trouble, as he 
 could not attend to the business. I succeeded in loaning all but 
 $1,740,000, which I could not loan. That day's purchases were not 
 loaned at all. What I purchased that day was to be loaned the next 
 day. What I loaned was the gold that I bought the day before, and the 
 gold which they had sent in for me at about half past 12. I received a 
 message from the Gold Exchange Bank to send in my clearance, as they 
 were waiting for my settlement. Mi\ Belden then took me over to the 
 office of Wm. Heath & Co. after I had reported that I could not loan 
 that gold. In the back part of that officte I found Mr. Fisk, Mr. Gould, 
 Mr. Heath, (of Heath & Co.,) and Mr. Smith, (of Smith, Gould & Mar- 
 tin,) and several other gentlemen whom I did not know. I stated to 
 them that I had about two million dollars over, which I could not loan. 
 Mr. Fisk then asked me why I had not loaned it. I answered, " On 
 account of the limit which Mr. Smith has given me." Mr. Smith then 
 replied that he had only given me two limits — one-sixteenth and one- 
 thirty-sgcond. Mr. Fisk said, " Smith, you can take a million ; and, 
 Heath, you take the balance." I then entered these amounts on my 
 clearance sheet to Smith and Heath, and they received, probably, the 
 gold from the cleariug-house, for which they were obliged, of course, to 
 give certified checks. That cleared my transaction for the day. As I 
 said before, it was $1,740,000 which these two persons took off my 
 hands— Smith, $1,000,000 ; and Heath, $740,000. On that Thursday I 
 had bought between five and six millions of gold altogether. 
 
 Now we come to Friday, the 24th. I again went down town at 9 o'clock, ■ 
 and met Mr. Belden coming out of his office in New street. He said, 
 " Come with me to Heath's office." He also said, " This will be the last 
 day of the gold-room. We have got over $110,000,000 of calls, (mean- 
 ing that they had a right to call for $110,000,000 at a certain price,) and 
 we have an immense amount of money, and can buy all the gold the 
 government dare to sell. We are all one family — Smith, Gould, and 
 Martin and others, (he did not tell me who the others were,) and my 
 partner is Mrs. Fisk's brother-in-law." 
 
 Q. Who is that f — A. I do not know what his name is. He went on 
 to say, " You need not bo afraid of any orders that are given you ; you 
 will be all right." We had now reached Mr. Heath's office, (this was 
 said on the way to Heath's office,) where I found Fisk and Gould, and 
 several other i^ersons whom I did not know. Fisk told me to buy all 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 65 
 
 the gold I could get at 145 or under. He spoke loud, in the hearing of 
 everybody. The market price (that was before the board) was then 
 143 J. • I then went to the gold-room again, to buy cautiously, until I 
 passed my limit of 145. Then, whUe I was standing there, a slip of 
 paper was handed to me, on which was written, " Put it to 150, at once," 
 ■signed " James Pisk, jr.," and addressed " A. Speyers." I will produce 
 that paper before the committee. I continued to buy until I got it up 
 to 150. I went back to Mr. Heath's oflce several times during my pur- 
 chases, and reported to Messrs. Pisk and Gould, showing both of them 
 what I had done. Fisk said, " AU right ; go back and take aU that 
 you can get at 150." 
 
 I returned and bought some more at 150, and again reported to Fisk 
 and Gould ; and after all that he said : " Go back and take all you can 
 get under 150." During the time I was bidding 150 a Mr. Horton, a 
 stock bf oker and gold broker, came to me from the stock board into the 
 gold-room (the stock board is in the next building) and told me that if 
 1 continued to bid I certainly would be shot down, as there was a great 
 excitement among the stock brokers. I went at once to the stock board, 
 mounted the platform in spite of the excitement, and told them that I 
 was a member of the stock board ; that I had been threatened to be 
 shot, and that I came to tell them that I would continue to bid, and 
 that I merely wanted to see the cowards and scoundrels who intended 
 to shoot me ; that I was there as the target and told them to shoot 
 away. They did not fire off, though, but the board was very miich fired 
 up. I then went back to Mr. Fisk and told him what had happened. 
 He said he had heard of it, and added, " Go and bid gold up to 160. 
 Take all you can get at 160. But you will be too late, for 1 have given 
 orders to other brokers already to buy at 160." I tlien went back and 
 bought gold until I got it up to 160. I bought some for less. After I 
 had bought a lot of gold at 160, 1 reported again to Mr. Fisk, and he 
 told me not to report so often; that I was perfectly safe; that they had 
 their own way of doing business ; and that I should continue to buy at 
 160. Gold passed 160 and went up to 163 J, and of course I did not buy 
 at that price. It then began to break down to 160, and I reported 
 again. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. Can you tell what time it was when the market turned ? — ^A. I can- 
 not tell exactly ; I could give a guess merely. I reported again and 
 Mr. Fisk stated, " Do not let it drop, but take all you can get." 
 
 Q. Do you mean not to let it drop below 160 or below 163 J ?— A. 160. 
 I remember that Mr. Heath came in and bid at a higher rate than 160, 
 I suppose also for them. When gold passed 160, Mr. Heath came in and 
 bought at a higher rate. By the bye, Mr. Heath also told me when I 
 stood at the platform of the Stock Exchange that if I would not bid, he 
 would. Whenever I ^aw Fisk and Gould, there always were some gen- 
 tlemen present whom I did not know. Gold began to break to 155 first 
 when I reported. StiU Mr. Fisk told me that I should not mind it at all ; 
 that I should bid 160 and take all that I could get at 160 ; that I Was 
 merely a broker and should not mind the market. He was sitting there 
 in his shirt-sleeves, and with a big cane in his hand. Finally the market 
 broke down to 140, and stiU Mr. Fisk, in spite of my objections, told me 
 always that I was perfectly safe ; that I was merely a broker ; that they 
 had their own way of doing business ; to keep up that status, (that was 
 the elegant language he used,) to keep up that status of 160; and, turn- 
 ing to Gould and Smith, they approved of it. Finally gold broke down 
 H. Eep. 31 5 
 
66 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 to 133, when I broke down too. I really was so exhausted that I stated 
 I could do nothing more, and they requested me then to send my clerk. 
 But they could not get any more even at 160. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Q. Why could you not get bids accepted at 160 ?— A. On account of 
 the absurdity of the thing, when people were offering at 133. I bought 
 a million at 160 from the man next to me, who bought it at 140, and 
 who thought he had made two hundred thousand dollars by the trans- 
 action. The result of it was that Mr. Pisk did not take the gold at 160, 
 and the party who bought at 140, instead of making money by the 
 transaction, probably lost a good deal. In fact, I know that a good 
 deal of that gold which I bought was sold through their awn brokers 
 to me. This I found out afterward from the brokers themselves. In 
 fact, I can name one man of whom I had bought two millions at 160, 
 and who, when gold got down to 133, came to my of&ce and told me 
 that he called to strike it out ; and when I refused to have it struck out, 
 he said it was all for the same parties. The firm was Gray & Prince; 
 I do not know whether the man who came to the office was Gray or 
 Prince. He told my clerk to strike it out. Another example: Mr. 
 Marks, of whom I bought a million at 160, came to me in the gold room 
 to strike out the transaction, which I refused to do, stating that I did 
 not do that kind of business. I then went over to Fisk & Gould, and 
 stated the circumstance of Mr. Marks's telling me to strike out that 
 million, and they said : " Well, if Marks said so, you better strike it 
 out." And so I did. And so I learned that a great part of this gold 
 which I bought at 160 was sold to me through their own brokers. I 
 bought some of Mr. Parks, but it never was claimed, unquestionably 
 because it was sold for the same parties. 
 
 Q. State whether you found out in the course of the whole business, 
 and subsequent examination of it, that a large part of the gold which 
 you bought, was sold to you by the brokers of the clique "? — A. Tes ; 
 I have stated these cases. I then returned to my office, after I 
 myself had broken down in strength. I bought altogether, that day, 
 over twenty-six millions. That was the last day — ^the day of judgment. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Did you have any money at all to buy gold with 1 — ^A. Ko, sir; 
 no margin at all. It was not customary. On Saturday morning 1 went 
 over to the gold room and stated publicly that all the gold which I 
 bought on Thursday was for Belden & Co., and associates, and that all 
 the gold that I bought on Friday was for J. Fisk, jr., and associates. 
 I stated that to all the brokers. I gave up my principals at once. I 
 really cannot tell whether that was on Saturday or Friday, but I will 
 come to it later, and I will remember it. 
 
 The account of all my purchases I tried to hand in to Mr. Fisk or Mr. 
 Gould on Saturday, but I could not see them. I sent several times to 
 the Grand Opera House, which is their ofSce, and they would neither 
 leb the person whom I seirt come in, nor would they receive any papers, 
 so I was obliged to send the accounts by mail. The purchases of Thurs- 
 day I sent to Mr. Belden, addressed to William Belden & Co. and asso- 
 
 put all the trouble on our shoulders, as they refuse to give margins." 
 So I left with an empty pocket. I wanted the margins, because I was 
 called upon by other parties for the margins; among them was Mr. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 67 
 
 James Brown, of the firm of James Brown & Co., of whom I had bought 
 seven millions of gold for their account. I introduced Mr. Brown, say- 
 ing, " Mr. Fisk and Mr. Gould, here is Mr. Brown, of whom I bought 
 for your account seven millions of gold. He wants a margin, but as 
 you have not given me any I leave him in your hands to settle with." 
 I then withdrew. After that I tried to get into the office, but was re- 
 fused admittance, two men keeping guard all morning at the office door. 
 This was on the morning of the 2lth, Friday. I did not see them on 
 Saturday at all. When gold was at 160 Mr. Fisk told me if I could 
 settle with any parties at 150 to do so, but I could not make any settle- 
 ments at all. In an interview with Mr. Fisk he told me that he had 
 received my reports. I had no chance to see Mr. Fisk for the next fort- 
 night, until he sent for me one day to come to his office — the Brie rail- 
 way office. 
 
 Q. State any interview that you had subsequently to the week of the 
 gold panic with Mr. Fisk or Mr. Gould or either of them, and state the 
 whole circumstance of the interview. — A. I went in the afternoon with 
 Mr. Belden to the Opera House, Mr. Belden telling me that Mr. Fisk 
 would like to see me. There I found Messrs. Fisk and Gould. When I 
 arrived Mr. Fisk told me, "Mr. Speyers, you can ask anything of us — 
 money, capital, or service. What do you care about the brokers'? Yon 
 have a family of children. The brokers are all rascals. I have got in 
 my desk here accounts from twenty-seven brokers who owe me four 
 hundred thousand dollars on stock transactions. I have, for instance, 
 sold fifteen thousand shares of New York Central at 180 which I bought 
 in at a much lower rate, and now they will not pay it. They want to 
 mix it up with the gold business." I told him that all T wanted was 
 that he should place me where I stood on Wednesday. He understood 
 that to mean that he should fulfill his engagements with me. I stated 
 to him that I wanted him to put me where I was on Wednesday. He 
 said that that would put him in a very awkward position, referring to 
 written contracts which I had given to the different parties from whom 
 I had bought gold in the name of James Fisk, jr., and his associates, 
 and which I supposed made them liable. I told him that he put me in 
 a far worse position, and that I wanted him to get me out of it. With 
 that the conversation broke up. Some time later — I suppose about a 
 week later, which would be about three or four w^eks after the gold 
 panic — I either went up again to see Mr. Belden or I was sent for to the 
 Opera House. I think 1 went to see Mr. Belden, when I found Mr. Fisk 
 and Mr. Gould there again, and he told me that Mr. Shearman, his law- 
 yer, would like to see me. I had an interview with Mr. Shearman in a 
 private office in the same buUding, when Mr. Shearman asked me who 
 my lawyers were. I told hi m that Mr. Charles A. Rapallo was my lawyer. 
 His answer was, " Ah, he will be, of course, agaiust us ; he is Mr. Van- 
 derbilt's lawyer. He will not give you two hundred thousand dollars to 
 get you out of this scrape." I told him that I did not expect a lawyer to 
 give me $200,000; that if Mr. Eapallo had got me into such a scrape, 
 he would try to get me out of it at any amount ; that all I wanted was, 
 as I had told Mr. Fisk before, to be placed in the same position in which 
 I was on Wednesday, when my credit was good, when my name was 
 good, and when I had a good business, and that the whole of it was 
 ruined by their proceedings. I had a third interview with young Mr. 
 Dudley D. Field in respect to a transaction in the purchase of gold from 
 Mr. Joslyn. He, Mr. Field, was a member of the legal firm of Field & 
 Shearman. He sent for me in the evening to the Opera House. The 
 transaction with Mr. Joslyn was this : I had bought on that Friday half 
 
68 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 a million of gold from Mr. Joslyn for Pisk and associates, at 160. As 
 I could not see well I requested Mr. Eeed, who stood next to me, to write 
 my purchases down in my book. Among other purchases which he 
 wrote down was one miUion bought of Dzondi, Springer & Co., at 
 160, also for the Fisk party. The name of Dzondi was not clearly writ- 
 ten, and when the entries from my first book were transferred to my 
 principal book in the oflace the name of Joslyn was entered instead of 
 Dzondi, the latter being so badly written. Instead of an entry of a half 
 million bought from Joslyn, the entry was for a million and a half bought 
 from Joslyn, and Mr. Joslyn accepted the purchase, as gold was then 133. 
 Mr. Joslyn afterward came to my ofilce and instituted a suit against the 
 clique, for the sale of a million and a half of gold. The mistake had not 
 been discovered then, and not till a few days later, when the comparisoa 
 was made between my first notes and the principal book. Then it was 
 found that I had only bought half a million from Joslyn and not a mil- 
 lion and a half. I stated the mistake to my lawyer, Mr. Eapallo. I 
 then met Mr. Joslyn, in Broad street, and said to him : " There is a mis- 
 take. I only bought of you half a million of gold at 160, and the other 
 miUion I bought of Dzondi, and not of you." He said : " Mr. Eapallo 
 told me you said you did not buy any gold of me." I said : " No, that 
 is a mistake. I bought a half a million of you, but no more." Mr. Jos- 
 lyn said : "I will come over and see about it." He did not come to see 
 me for a day or two, and then I repeated in writing to him what I stated 
 verbally, that it was a mistake, and that I had not bought taut half a 
 million of him. At the same time I reported to Pisk and associates, also, 
 the circumstance that I had only bought half a million of Mr. Joslyn, 
 and not a million and a half. Mr. Joslyn never contradicted it, and never 
 touched that subject again. That was the cause of Mr. Field coming to 
 see me, and to get my affidavit stating that circumstance. Then Mr. 
 David Dudley Pield himself sent for me about a week or two later than 
 the interview with his son, requesting me to state to him the whole cir- 
 cumstances of the transactions of those two days, as he had not been 
 in town then, and he wanted to know all that had taken place; which I 
 stated to him fully. Since then, I have seen neither of those gentlemen. 
 
 Q. In that connection, state what you understood to be meant by the 
 suggestion that Yanderbilt's lawyer would not pay you $200,000 1 — ^A. 
 I understood that it was merely holding out that kind of a bribe to me; 
 that if I would accept $200,000 they would give it to me. My idea was 
 that then I should hold them clear, and take the whole thing on my 
 shoulders. 
 
 Q. State to the committee whether we are right in understanding 
 you, from the drift of your testimony, that Pisk, Gould, and associates, 
 repudiated a large portion of your purchases of gold ? — A. Mr. Pisk 
 told me, in the first interview I had with him after the transactions, that 
 he did not deny that he gave me all those orders ; but that it was on 
 account of Belden, and Mr. Belden said at the same time : " You know, 
 Speyers, that you did it all for me." I said: "Mr. Belden, and Mr. 
 Pisk, that is all nonsense to talk to me so. B'ot only did you, Mr. Pisk, 
 not tell me that it was for account of Mr. Belden, but you, Mr. Belden, 
 told me all the time that all those transactions were for one family, and 
 you named the parties yourself— Smith, Gould, and Martin, Mr. Fisk, 
 and several others. It is no use to talk to me in that manner." I 
 thought, perhaps, that the suggestion of the $200,000 was a hint that 
 if I would accept the $200,000, and say that my purchases were for 
 account of Belden or for my own account, I could have any amount of 
 money. 
 
GOLD PAKIC INVESTIGATION. 69 
 
 Q. Have you ever received, since the transaction, any amounts of 
 money from what is known as the clique, or from anybody else who is 
 known as connected in the matter ? — A. iTo, sir ; not a dollar. 
 
 Q. How much money did you ever receive from the clique during the 
 transactions for purchases, commissions, or anything else ■? — ^A. I never 
 received a dollar commission ; I did not receive any compensation. 
 
 Q. Did you receive no funds from them with which to make pur- 
 chases? — ^A. No, sir; I had bought some gold for them at lower rates 
 which I loaned out at higher rates, depositing the amounts in trust 
 companies. 
 
 Q. To whose credit ? — A. I deposited to my credit, but I had to give 
 it up ; it was a margin, in the first place ; then, also, I called in large 
 amounts of margin on that Friday. 
 
 Q. To what amount ? — A. I do not know ; I suppose, $100,000. 1 
 returned all the certified checks that I had received as margins ; I did 
 not deposit one of them in the banks, but returned them to the original 
 givers. 
 
 Q. How much gold, in aU, during the whole transaction did you buy 
 for the clique ? — ^A. I suppose about thirty -five millions ; that is as near 
 as I can come to it without my books. 
 
 Q. How much did you loan ? — ^A. I have stated the loans ; I did not 
 loan anything else. The purchases of Friday were not received ; they 
 did not go to the clearing-house. 
 
 Q. As the results of this whole transaction what is now your relation 
 to the Gold Exchange ! — ^A. I, of course, lost my seat in both the Gold 
 Exchange and the Stock Board by claims being made against me which 
 I could not meet. They were all for account of the clique. I did not 
 buy any for my own account during the two days. I did not do any 
 business at aU for myself, and I do not suppose that for the whole month 
 I bought or sold for myself $200,000. I did not do anything whatever 
 during the time of speculation. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 Q. What do you estimate as your aggregate losses in the transaction ? — 
 A. My business is ruined. With that exception I do not suppose I will 
 have any losses. It wiU be pretty much made up by what I deposited 
 in the trust companies with that which I got from the loans. 
 
 By the Ohairmaj>i : 
 
 Q. What interest or compensation did you receive for the purchase of 
 gold made by you during those two days ? — A. I had no interest except 
 my commission, which I have never received, 
 
 Q. If you had received commissions on the usual terms, what amount 
 would you have received from your transactions ? — ^A. Mr. Belden told 
 me that he would pay me a liberal commission. My commission was 
 never fixed. I would call a liberal commission one-sixteenth of one per 
 cent., or even less. Mr. Belden told me to hand in my account for com- 
 missions, and that I would be entitled to one-eighth of one per cent. 
 That is the general rate of commission for a broker, but in the gold 
 business they do it for less, and I undoubtedly would have done it for 
 less. 
 
 Q. Vhat charge did you present ? — A. At one-eighth of one per cent., 
 amounting to about forty-odd thousand dollars. I would not have 
 charged them one-eighth if Mr. Belden had not told me so. I would 
 have left it to what they thought fair. 
 
 Q. State to the committee what efforts you have made, if any, to 
 
70 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 procure a settlement of your transactions for the clique. — A. I was 
 advised by my lawyers not to begin any suit. They told me, m tact, 
 that I could not begin any suit, because I had not received the gold, 
 except for my commissions. My lawyers told me further, that it was 
 much better for me to stand neutral and be a witness, and let others sue 
 for their claims. They said that if they were willing to make a settle- 
 ment they would do it without my suing, because others were there 
 who would sue, and who have sued. 
 
 Q. Have you given your testimony hitherto before any court?— A. 
 Yes. I have given, in the first place, the testimony which I have here 
 in manuscript, by order of the superior court before Judge Freedman. 
 ("Witness exhibits the manuscript of his testimony.) 
 
 Q. You have also, in addition, given your testimony before the arbi- 
 tration committee in New York ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Both under oath ?— A. Yes, sir. I believe the testimony in the 
 arbitration committee is not finished yet. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge that any officer of the United States 
 was in any way concerned in the gold transactions of those two days ?— 
 A. No, sir ; not the slightest. 
 
 Q. Had you yourself any personal conference during those days, or 
 near that time, with any officer of the government of the United States?— 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or with anybody representing them ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Had you any conversation or communication with any officer of 
 the sub-treasury in New York "? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You know who the leading officer of the sub-treasury was ? — A. 
 Mr. Butterfield was at that time. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. I would like you to explain a little more explicitly how it was that 
 you made no loss ?— A. For instance, I bought gold for the clique at 
 138, and loaned it out at 140. That left a balance in my hands. Oa 
 the first transaction I sent a check for the balance of $15,000 to Mr. 
 Belden for loans. The next day I had in my hands about as much as 
 would cover the deposits which I made on margins with the trust com- 
 panies, which, of course, when the gold went down I gave up to these 
 parties. For instance : I remember $25,000 from Kamlah, Sauer & Co., 
 and $5,000 from Drexel, Winthrop & Co., which was deposited in the 
 way of margins, and when gold went down I handed over to them 
 that money in a friendly suit. Fisk «& Gould would have nothing to do 
 with it. 
 
 Q. You had a written order from Fisk 1 — A. I had that little order 
 from Fisk. 
 
 Q. Who brought you that order ? — A. It was handed to me while I 
 was in the gold-room by a little boy. 
 
 Q. Do you know Fisk's handwriting ? — A. No, sir ; but others saw it 
 who knew Fisk's handwriting. 
 
 Q. You did not know that it was Fisk's handwriting? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And you acted on that order? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. How was it phrased ? — A. " Put it up to 150 at once." Signed, "J. 
 Fisk, jr.," and addressed, "A. Speyers." 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Did Mr. Fisk ever deny that he sent you this note? — A. No, sir; I 
 do not think it came up. I did not show to him.- He never denied to 
 me any purchases that I made for him. In fact, the subject was only 
 touched once. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 71 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Belden fail? — ^A. He told me that he had gone into bank- 
 ruptcy, and I saw the schedule of his assets. He claimed all the gold 
 which he had loaned out to parties, and claimed that gold without re- 
 turning the currency which he had received for it. He claimed five or 
 six or seven millions, and told me when he got that money he would 
 pay me. 
 
 Q. So that the clique said to you, "We ordered you to buy on account 
 of Belden, and you must look to Belden ?" — ^A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. And Belden stiU says to you that if he ever recovers his money 
 he will pay you? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So you understand that you are dropped in this matter through 
 the supposed failure of Belden ? — A. Yes. I believe that it was the in- 
 tention to induce me to take that bribe, because when I said to Fisk, 
 " It is all nonsense to talk to me in that way ; you never told me that it 
 was for Belden, and Belden, on the contrary, told me that it was for you," 
 he never said one word more. 
 
 Q. Did this gold clique at anytime let you into their confidence so far 
 as to explain to you what they were going to do? — A. No, sir; only that 
 it was a general report that gold was going up, and that the government 
 would not sell. I never had seen Fisk or Gould until that Thursday 
 morning, and I had never done any business for them before. 
 
 Q. The testimony which you have given before this committee has 
 been given from .full memoranda which you made in the regular order 
 of business during the transactions themselves ? — ^A. I made the mem- 
 oranda the very next day, and the very day of the transaction. 
 
 Q. Which original -memoranda you possess ? — A. Yes, I have the orig- 
 inals in my pocket. I wrote these memoranda on the very next day. 
 
 Q. State whether you have, in the course of your business as a broker, 
 a book in which you enter instantly every transaction as it takes place ? — 
 A. Yes ; the very moment 1 make a purchase or sale, it is entered in 
 my book. 
 
 Q. And your statements to the committee have been made on the 
 basis of these memoranda, as well as from your private recollection ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. What time did it dawn upon your mind that this was a conspiracy, 
 and that you were being used by these parties ? — A. First, when I asked 
 for a margin and they refused to give it. Their transactions were all so 
 mysterious, that even when they bought gold at 160 while it was selling 
 at 140 I thought it quite natural for them. 1 thought that probably 
 they knew something about it. Mysteriously they issued forty millions 
 of Erie stock, and put the money in their pockets. When I went to 
 them over and over again, they said, "It is none of your business; you 
 are perfectly safe;" and so I thought it quite natural that the gold which 
 I bought at 160 was sold to me by their own brokers. 
 
 Q. Were you very much excited during the day? — ^A. Not the slightest. 
 I was excited, of course, in doing this kind of business. It was very 
 natural that persons should think me excited when I was buying gold 
 at 160 that was offering at 140 ; but I was no more excited than I am 
 now. 
 
 By the CHAiRaLAN: 
 
 Q. Did a poem which appeared in the New York Tribune, which de- 
 scribed yourself and your bids on that day, express the spirit of the 
 transaction, so far as you are concerned? — A. I have never seen it. A 
 gentleman told me that he passed the Evening Express office in the 
 
72 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 afternoon, and saw on the bulletin that Speyers was a raving maniac. 
 I believe that these men themselves spread that report. 
 
 By Mr. Bttechakd : 
 Q. Did you loan out gold on Friday?— A. No, sir; I did not make any 
 loans on Friday. 
 
 By Mr. Pacicer : 
 
 Q. Did you say you did not bid over 160 when gold ran up to 163 J ?— 
 A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Whatamountwassoldthatdayatapriceabovel60? — A. Iknowone 
 man, Mr. Oakley, who bought over $200,000 at 163 J. During the time that 
 gold went up from 160 to 163^ I went over to these parties, and ia 
 the meantime gold ran up to 163J. I know that Mr. Oakley bought 
 $200,000 or $300,000 at 163 J, and took it at that price. 
 
 Q. Was any bought for any persons of the clique above 160 ? — A. I 
 understood that gold was bought at 163J for an importing house, and 
 they paid for it. They were afraid it might go up to 200 ; in fact, I under- 
 stood Mr. Smith to say that it woul^ go up to 175 or 200. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. At what time, as near as you can fix it, did you buy seven mil- 
 lions from James Brown ?— A. I bought $500,000 at 150 ; $500,000 at 
 155, and $600,000 at 160. But when I bought at 160 gold had broken 
 down and was already offered all around at 140. I bought immediately 
 half a million at 155 and half a million at 150. Then, when I began to 
 buy at 160, gold had already broken down to 140, and, in fact, I under- 
 stand that Brown bought the gold at 140 which he sold to me at 160. 
 
 Q. Had there been any acceptance of bids for some time before that 
 at '160 ?— A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. My understanding was that there had been a considerable pause, 
 and that you were offering 160 for gold, and that your offer was not 
 accepted. — A. No. I think that in the beginning my bids were accepted 
 to very large amounts. All who had bought gold at 140 came around 
 me and were very anxious to sell at 160. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. In any of the interviews which you had with the parties connected 
 with the gold clique, was the object or purpose of the parties in forcing 
 up gold stated or alluded to ? — A. No, sir. In this combination Mr. 
 Woodward played a great part, but he got out of it. He was in the 
 combination, as far as I understand, to drive gold to a certain price. 
 The idea was to bring the gold up to 145. That was the report. Neither 
 of these gentlemen spoke to me about it. Mr. Woodward was one of 
 the parties. I understood he had three or four millions of gold ; but I 
 understood that he sold it to the very parties with whom he was in con- 
 nection to drive gold up. 
 
 Q. Was it for the purpose of affecting the price of stocks generally, 
 or of government bonds ? — A. That I do not know. I only understood 
 that they wanted to put gold up, and as I had not been doing anything 
 in bonds and stock, I took no notice of it. 
 
 Q. I supposed that something might have transpired that indicated 
 their real object. — ^A. No, sir; they did not speak to me about it. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. What did you understand by the expression- of Mr. Belden, on 
 Friday, that that was to be the last day of the gold room ? — A. I sup- . 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 73 
 
 posed it meant that they would break the gold room down, and that 
 they would drive gold very high. It-was Mr. Belden that told me that. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 Q. What was the effect of this inilation of gold on the general 
 market ? — A. It broke down stocks. I do not know how far it affected 
 government securities. It ruined a great many people and broke down 
 the gold room. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How long was it before the stocks rallied from the shock of those 
 transactions 1 — A. I do not know. I did not take any interest in the 
 stock market. 
 
 Q. Were other brokers of the clique beside yourself broken down ? — 
 A. Livermore & Co. bought at 160 for their account, and were broken 
 down, and Mr. Harrison and many others were broken down. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. Do you know a man by the name of Corbin ? — A. No, sir. 
 Q. You have never heard of him ? — A. N^othing more than in the 
 newspapers. 
 
 Washington, D, C, January 18, 1870. 
 James M. Ellis sworn and examined. 
 
 Witness, at his own request, was permitted to make the following 
 statement : 
 
 My partner, Mr. Heath, has gone to Europe simply on account of his 
 health, at the solicitation of his family and his physician, and with no 
 desire to evade giving his testimony here or elsewhere. He would be 
 perfectly willing, were he here, to give the committee all the informa- 
 tion he possesses. He left before the service of the process of this com- 
 mittee, and without any idea of such service being intended. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. State your place of residence, your business, and your place of 
 business % — A. New York is my place of residence and place of busi- 
 ness. I was formerly partner in the firm of Wm. Heath & Co., and I 
 am now closing up the affairs of the firm. 
 
 Q. State the business of that firm. — A. Stock-brokers. 
 
 Q. You were a member of that firm during the month of September 
 last? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 A. Had you been in the habit, before September last, of doing business 
 for any of the following parties: Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., Jay 
 Gould, Henry Smith, James D. Bach, J. Fisk, jr., Wm. Belden & Co., 
 E. K. WiUard ; and if so, for which of them ?— A. At times for nearly 
 all of them ; but as to one or two whose names you have mentioned I do 
 not recollect. For the principal ones whose names are here mentioned, 
 we have executed orders for the last three years. 
 
 Q. Did you in September last buy gold for any of these parties ? if 
 so, specify the amounts bought and the circumstances. — A. (Referring 
 to the books of the firm.) We seem to have bought gold for Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Co., Jay Gould, and J. Fisk, jr., on those days; dif- 
 ferent amounts and at different times. 
 
 Q. K you have entries so as to be able to give us items and prices, 
 do so — A. We commenced buying gold for Smith, Gould, Martin & 
 
74 
 
 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Co. on the 8th September, There is a long list of gold bought for them 
 at different prices, 1110,000 at 135|, $390,000 at 135J, $490,000 at 135i. 
 These purchases were made on the 8th of September for Smith, Gould, 
 Martin & Co. 
 
 (Witness subsequently furnished the following figures in answer to 
 the question:) 
 
 WiUiam Heath & Co. bought by order of Jas. Fisk, jr., the foUowing amounts of 
 gold: 
 
 Sept. 11, $750,000 at 135i; Sept. 22, $550,000 at 137*, $200,000 at 139*, $705,000 at 
 140*, $100,000 at 140|; Sept. 23, $95,000 at 142*, $275,000 at 142J, $100,000 at 144*. 
 $150,000 at 142; Sept. 24, $100,000 at 145. Total, $3,025,000, as appears by records. 
 
 William Heath & Co. sold and delivered by order of Jay Gould the following 
 amounts of gold : 
 
 Sept. 11, $50,000 at 135|, $585,000 at 135J, $200,000 at 136, $365,000 at 135|, $200,000 
 at 136*, $200,000 at 136*, $400,000 at, 136|, $300,000 at 136*, $95,000 at 136*, $405,000 at 
 136*, $500,000 at 136^, $375,000 at 136f, $170,000 at 136}. Total, $3,845,000, as appears 
 by records. 
 
 William Heath & Co. bought for Messrs. Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. the following 
 amounts of gold : 
 
 Sept. 8. $110,000 at 135|, $390,000 at 135*, $490,000 at 135*, $10,000 at 135, $1,000,000 
 at 137*, $1,000,000 at 137*, $75,000 at 138, $1,145,000 at 139, $50,000 at 139J, $980,000 at 
 139*, $280,000 at 139*, $600,000 at 140, $1,765,000 at 140*. Total, $7,895,000, as appears 
 by records. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. Had you bought any considerable amount before that ? — ^A. No, 
 sir. This is about the first of the large purchases for them. 
 
 Q. Had you any knowledge of a clique being formed at that time 
 for the purpose of dealing in gold? — A. No, sir. The bulk of the gold 
 we bought on the 22d of September for Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. 
 
 By the Ohaikman : 
 
 Q. State fdlly the transactions of that day, — A. We bought two mil- 
 lions at 137J; $75,000 at 138; $1,145,000 at 139: $50,000 at 139A: 
 $980,000 at 139i; $280,000 at 139^ ; $600,000 at 140, and $1,765,000 at 
 139J. That seems to have been all the gold bought for Smith, Gould, 
 Martin & Co., on the order of Mr. Smith, one of the partners of the 
 firm. He came into our office and gave those orders verbally. 
 
 Q. Tou have stated aU that you bought for this firm ? — A. That is all 
 &om September 8 up to and including September 22. 
 
 Q, Now state what you bought for James Fisk, jr,, during the same 
 period,— A. We bought from September 11 to September 23, inclusive, 
 $3,025,000, at an average of about 138J, on James Fisk's order. We 
 do not appear to have bought any gold for Mr. Gould. We sold gold for 
 Mr, Gould, We sold $3,845,000 between the 11th and 18th of Septem- 
 ber at an average of about 136|, 
 
 Q, Did you loan gold for any of those parties during that time?— A. 
 Yes, sir. By the order of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co,, we loaned gold 
 from day to day. 
 
 Q. About the same amounts that you bought? ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you buy or sell or loan gold for Belden & Co.?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or for any other of the firms that I named in my former question ?— A 
 I should have to refer to the books for E. K. Willard, We may have 
 bought or sold some little gold for him, but not to any amount 
 
 Q, For Carver & Co.?— A, No, sir. 
 
 Q, You have stated substantially the amount of your transactions in 
 gold from the 8th to the 22d of September, inclusive?— A, Yes, sir. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 75 
 
 Q. State now what transactions in gold your house had on the 23d of 
 September with any of these parties.— A. The memorandum which I 
 gave you for Mr. Fisk includes all the transactions that we did for him. 
 We bought $3,025,000 for him. For Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. we 
 bought on the 23d of September, or received on purchase from other 
 brokers, (you understand, of course, that one man could not execute all 
 those orders himself,) $3,400,000, at an average of about 141. That is all 
 the gold that we bought previous to Friday, the 24th of September, for any 
 of the parties whom you have named. 
 
 Q. Proceed to Friday, the 24th, and state your transactions on that 
 day.— A. On Friday, the 24th, we bought no gold except $100,000 for 
 Fisk at 145j and that is included in- the statement of $3,025,000. That 
 we bought in the morning early. Our transactions on that day were 
 entirely for other parties, and to a very limited amount, our attention 
 being entirely devoted to loaning gold already bought, and in trying to 
 avert the storm which we saw coming. 
 
 Q. Did you sell gold on the 24tM — A. No, sir; not for any of the parties 
 named. 
 
 Q. Did you loan gold ? — A. We loaned all the gold that we had bought 
 by the order of those parties, and which we had not sold. 
 
 Q. To whom did you loan the gold ? — A. To various parties in the 
 street, bankers and brokers — thirty or forty different firms — whoever 
 would take it. 
 
 Q. Did the parties to whom you loaned gold understand that you were 
 the brokers of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. and Fisk in doing so ? — ^A. 
 Yes, sir. They understood that we had been for two weeks buying gold 
 for them. 
 
 Q. Did you make private settlements during that day with parties 
 who were short of gold 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you make any adjustment of margins on that day privately 
 with parties ? — A. None, except to notify, parties who had gold from us 
 to make it up to market prices; to send checks for currency. 
 
 Q. From what person of the firm of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. did 
 you receive your orders ? — A. From Mr. Smith almost entirely. Occa- 
 sionally orders would come from Mr. Gould by telegraph from his rail- 
 way office, in which case they always confirmed it and took it. 
 
 Q. Did you have interviews with any of those parties during that 
 time ?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you informed of the purpose of their movements ; of what 
 they intended to do ? — ^A. I ought to state that I was not present during 
 that week. All the facts that I am giving you are from my books. 
 
 Q. You are giving your testimony as an accountant, knowing the books 
 to be correct ? — A. Yes ; I have examined them. All the information I 
 can give further would be as to what has taken place since in interviews 
 which I have had with Fisk and Gould. 
 
 Q. You have had interviews with Fisk and Gould since in the settle- 
 ment of your affairs ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. To what extent did parties make their purchases good ? — A. About 
 ten millions of gold were loaned out to different parties on the street 
 through the clearing-house. It would be impossible, without sending 
 on to my office, to say to whom we loanedigold. We loaned to all the 
 brokers and bankers on the street who were in good credit, and as fast 
 as gold rose on Friday w& sent to them to change the price of gold from 
 145 to 150 or 155, as the case might be. We sent to all of them, and 
 some of them responded. 
 
76 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 By Mr. Judd : 
 
 Q. Can you give us an idea to what the additional margins on that 
 day amounted?— A. I should think perhaps five or six hundred thou- 
 sand dollars. 
 
 Q. Not more than that?— A. I should think not more than that on 
 that day. Previously gold had been made up on that day to 145. 
 
 Q. Was this increase as to the 24th of September ?— A. Yes, sir; the 
 day of the culmination. 
 
 Q. How about the preceding day?— A. It is our custom always to 
 make parties to whom we loan gold keep it at the market price. Con- 
 sequently, if we loaned gold at 137 and it went up to 145, we sent around 
 to the parties who borrowed it to give us checks to make the gold 145. 
 
 Q. How much margin did you get on the 23d?— A. The quickest way 
 to answer that would be to say that when the market broke and went to 
 135 we owed the street about '$1,000,000, which had been money placed 
 in our hands through the clearing-house belonging to parties who had 
 been compelled to make it up to the high prices— all the way from 145 
 to 155 and 160. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. State how much gold Heath & Co. were carrying on the 24th of 
 September for Smith, Gould, Martin & Co.— A. About $7,800,000. 
 
 Q. Has that all been settled with Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. ?— A. 
 Yes, sir. This does not include Fisk's. 
 
 Q. What person of the firm of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. settled 
 with you ? — A. We had interviews with several of the firm ; with Mr. 
 Smith and Mr. Gould. The negotiation extended from the 25th of Sep- 
 tember until within about a week. The conferences generally have been 
 with Mr. Smith, or with his agent in the matter, Mr. Willard. Mr. Wil- 
 lard seemed to act as the confidential agent of Smith, Gould, Martin & 
 Co., and had most of the interviews with our counsel in the settlement. 
 
 Q. Has that firm settled with you in the usual way? — A. Ko, sir. 
 The manner of settlement has been in the usual way, but they have not 
 settled at the rates customary in transactions of smaller magnitude. 
 
 Q. Did Smith, Gould, & Martin repudiate any of your transactions 
 made by their orders during those days ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did any of the firms whom I mentioned in the beginning, as pro- 
 bably belonging to the gold clique, repudiate any of the transactions 
 which you did for them during those days ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. In other words, they recognized the validity of the transactions be- 
 tween you and them, and settled them ? — A. Ultimately they did. At 
 one time there was a difficulty about the Fisk gold. 
 
 Q. But these differences have been settled. — A. Smith, Gould, Martin 
 & Go. assumed and settled the Fisk gold. 
 
 Q. Was that settlement a settlement in the nature of a compromise, 
 or a settlement based upon the validity of the transaction ? — A. It was 
 in the nature of a compromise. 
 
 Q. Was it a pecuniary compromise, putting the rates down ? — A. Put- 
 ting them up. That is, gold was settled on a basis of 135, when the 
 market price of gold ranged between 129 and 133 during the settlement, 
 lasting five or six weeks. 
 
 Q. Did your firm receive for your services on that occasion anything 
 else than the usual commissions ? — A. We could not get the usual com- 
 missions. We were obliged to compromise that, too. 
 
 Q. Did you receive any bonus other than commissions, or in Ueu of 
 commissions, as a consideration for the settlement ? — A. Not a cent. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 77 
 
 Q. The $7,800,000 gold wMch you carried for Smith, Gould, Martiu 
 & Co., on the 24th, has all been settled 1 — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And your account with J. Fisk,jr., has also been settled? — A. The 
 $3,025,000 was transferred to the account of Smith, Gould, Martin & 
 Co., and was settled. 
 
 Q. Is there a balance left unsettled? — A. There is a disputed matter 
 upon nearly $2,000,000 of gold which we have no connection with, but 
 which a street broker bought on the orders of Mr. Pisk. 
 
 Q. What is his name ? — A. Livermore & Co. That gold has nevei 
 been settled by any one, although I believe Mr. Fisk does not dispute 
 giving Mr. Allen, of Livermore & Co., the order, or to some party who 
 gave the order to Mr. Allen. 
 
 Q. How were you connected with that ? — A. No way, except that Mr. 
 Fisk was in our private office when he gave the order, and the broker 
 who executed the order claimed that one of our clerks gave him to un- 
 derstand in some way that we were to take care of the gold, which was 
 not the fact. Mr. Fisk has that matter to settje. 
 
 Q. Were all the orders from those parties received by you in the usual 
 manner ? — A. Yes ; they were verbal orders, or telegraphic, or in writ- 
 ing. 
 
 Q. Did any dispute arise between you and those parties concerning 
 the validity of any of them ; did they claim that any of them were not 
 their orders ; was there any attempt to repudiate any of them ? — ^A. 
 Ko, sir. 
 
 Q. When was this, final settlement that you speak of? — ^A. I think it 
 was about two weeks ago. 
 
 Q. Before Mr. Heath sailed for Europe ? — A. Yes, sir ; ten days be- 
 fore. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Heath a party personally to the settlement? — ^A. Of 
 course ; I myself with my counsel acted in those matters. 
 
 Q. Are you and the other members of your firm members of the Gold 
 Exchange ? — A. Mr. Heath and myself are temporarily suspended. 
 
 Q. Why were you suspended from the Gold Exchange ? — ^A. We were 
 not precisely suspended. Certain parties claim that we have not paid 
 differences to them, and so, under advice of our counsel, we have with- 
 drawn from actual participation in dealings. 
 
 Q. Have you had any suit, either as plaintiffs or defendants, before 
 the arbitration committee of the board ? — ^A. As defendants we have 
 been summoned before the arbitration committee. 
 
 Q. Have you, through your counsel, obtained any injunction or order 
 from the court against any of these parties ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What orders or injunctions have you obtained ? — A. An injunction 
 restraining the arbitration committee frbm arbitrating certain, cases 
 brought against us. 
 
 Q. Have all those injunctions been withdrawn? — A. The temporary in- 
 junctions have been dissolved. 
 
 Q. Have you any permanent injunctions against them ? — A. ISo, sir ; 
 the court refused to make them permanent. 
 
 Q. Whatjudge granted the injunctions?— A. Judge Loew, of the com- 
 mon pleas. 
 
 Q. Who was your attorney ?— A. Messrs. Martin & Smith. 
 
 Q. In any of the transactions did you give up your prtucipals? — A. 
 No, sir ; that was the reason why we had such large orders. We were 
 confidential, and gave up no one. 
 
 By Mr. Coburn : 
 
 Q. What do you mean by giving up your principals ?— A. Generally, 
 
78 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 when a broker buys, for example, a Imndred thousand dollars of gold, 
 he states for whom he buys it, and the names of the principals are put 
 down. We did not do that in any case. Of course, if we did in this 
 case, it would have injured the operation of the bull party. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. If you are buying gold for another man, and the person of whom 
 you buy begins to doubt whether you are responsible for it, he says that 
 you must either settle or tell him who is responsible behind yon ? — ^A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And when you conclude to do the latter thing you give up your 
 principal? — A. Yes, sir; if they are not satisfied with the brokers they 
 usually insist on the principals. Unfortunately, in this case, they were 
 better satisfied with the brokers than they were with the principals. 
 
 Q. Who gave you the orders to loan the gold that you loaned during 
 those days? — A. Mr. Smith, of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., generally 
 regulated the loans. I'he general instructions were simply to loan the 
 gold. 
 
 Q. Did you receive any orders from Mr. Belden during that time ?— 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you loan to the shorts altogether ? — A. Entirely, with the ex- 
 ception of a few hundred thousand dollars, which we were obliged to 
 loan outside. 
 
 Q. Did you have any transaction on either of those days with Albert 
 Speyers ? — A. Not for any of those parties. I think there was $100,000 
 of gold bought from him, and $100,000 of gold sold to him from outside 
 parties. 
 
 Q. Did you understand for whom Albert Speyers was acting during 
 those days ? — A. I not being there, could not understand personally any- 
 thing about it. All the brokers in the street knew that Speyers was 
 operating for the clique. 
 
 Q. How many brokers did your firm understand the gold ring had in 
 their employ during those days? — A. It would be impossible to teU. 
 
 Q. Have j^our accounts yet been cleared through the Gold Exchangfe 
 Bank ? — A. They have been all settled, but not through the Gold Ex- 
 change Bank. All those transactions of Friday were obliged to be set- 
 tled ex-clearing-house. The bank failed to clear Friday's transactions, 
 and they were put in the hands of a receiver and new clearances were 
 made. As far as we are concerned, I believe that there is only $30,000 
 not cleared. 
 
 Q. Was your firm directed not to sell to any particular brokers or any 
 class of brokers ? — A. We had no orders to sell on Friday. The 18th 
 was the last day that we sold any. 
 
 Q. Were you directed not to buy of some particular brokers ? Were 
 there any brokers on the street or in the room from whom you were 
 directed not to buy ? — A. No, sir. O.ur general directions were to buy, 
 of course, fi'om good parties who would fuMU their contracts. 
 
 Q. Were there persons in the gold room selling gold from whom you 
 did not as a rule buy, either from instructions or from your own judg- 
 ment in the case ? Were there responsible brokers, from whom you 
 as a firm did not buy and would not buy ? — A. No, sir ; unless we felt 
 that they were poor parties. The firm of Wm, Heath & Co. was em- 
 ployed by Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., and by Pisk & Jay Gould, to 
 buy large amounts of gold. The reason, was the reputation of my part- 
 ner, Mr. Heath, for the ability with which he executed orders, and the 
 secrecy with which he kept his business to himself. On Wednesday we 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 79 
 
 bought the last gold that we bought, our books showing then that we had 
 about eleven millions. That was too much for one firm of brokers to 
 have. Therefore, on Thursday and Friday we executed no orders of any 
 consequence for the purchase of gold or sale of gold. We bought $100,000 
 on Friday morning for Mr. Fisk. The amount of gold that we had 
 bought for Gould and for Pisk, and for Smith, Martin, Gould & Co., 
 was so enormous that we did not care to take any more. Therefore, 
 on Thursday and Friday we were simply engaged in taking care of the 
 gold, or loaning the amounts of gold that we had. We bought for the 
 firm of M. Dodge & Co. $200,000 in gold for a mercantile house at 162. 
 Beyond that I think that hardly anything was done by us. 
 
 By Mr. Cobtjen : 
 Q. Is there a regular commission established for gold transactions? — 
 A. There is a regular scale ; one-eighth of one per cent, is the regular 
 commission to outsiders. With brokers, between themselves, they di- 
 vide the commission. The regular rate would be one-eighth to any one 
 except bankers and brokers. They make any terms that they please. 
 
 By the Chaikman : 
 
 Q. In the instructions that you received from Fisk or Gould or any of 
 the parties, was there anything more than a simple order to buy or sell 
 or loan, as the case might be ; or did they explain the purpose they had 
 in view 1 — ^A, There was not a word in explanation. 
 
 Q. Was your firm in the confidence of those people as to their plans 
 or purposes ? — A. Not in the least. 
 
 Q. Had you knowledge of their plans or purposes ? — A. Not in the 
 least. 
 
 Q. Did your firm or any of them know that Mr. Speyers was a pur- 
 chasing broker for these people? — ^A. Of course we knew it on Friday. 
 I wiU state that Fisk and Gould gave most of their orders on Friday in 
 our private of&ce, and Speyers was seen passing in and out from our 
 main office to our private oflEice, and receiving his orders fi*om those 
 people. 
 
 Q. Did any of those people say to your firm, or any of them, that they 
 would raise the price of gold ? — A. I did not hear anything of that kind. 
 There was no correspondence as to anything except orders, and that was 
 telegraphic. 
 
 Q. In the transactions which you carried on for these parties, did you 
 receive currency or gold with which to make purchases? Did they 
 furnish you with money to carry on such transactions, and if so, to what 
 amount ? — A. They did not. On Friday Mr. Gould, at the request of 
 my partner for more margin, said that he would instruct the proper offi- 
 cer, or would write a letter to the Tenth National Bank to instruct them 
 to make a loan, or to certify checks ta some way, to give us credit, which 
 might facilitate our business transactions for his firm. 
 
 Q. Did you receive such certified checks ? — A. No. That was pre- 
 vented by the presence of bank examiners, as I was informed by Mr. 
 Heath, who would not permit any certification beyond the funds which 
 were there. As I understood it, the presence of those examiners was 
 the cause that the promise was not kept. He wrote the letter how- 
 ever. 
 
 Q. What amount did he promise to send you in the way of margin? 
 
 A. A half million dollars, I think. This is mere hearsay from my 
 partner. 
 
 Q. And he wrote to the bank to give a certified check ? — A. Yes ; or 
 
80 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 to give us a loan— to give us that necessary margin, so that we should 
 feel safe as brokers — so my partner informed me. . 
 
 Q. Did he give you anything in lieu of that certified check?— A. No, 
 sir : not then. He made no offer until subsequently. 
 
 Q. Did your firm win or lose as the results of these transactions?— 
 A. The only result to us has been an entire stoppage of our business, 
 and very heavy losses, besides some claims now in dispute and in 
 lawsuits. 
 
 Q. What character of claims are they ?— A. Certain parties have sued 
 us in lawsuits, and before arbitration committees, on the ground that 
 we were brokers for more gold than we acknowledged. It is a mere 
 question of fact to be settled by a jury. 
 
 Q. Who are those parties ? — A. Joslyn has three suits against us. 
 The result to us has been almost ruin as far as our business as brokers 
 is concerned. We are utterly unable to go on, and we have made very 
 heavy losses in our stock business consequent on this panic. 
 
 Q. How would your firm have come out of the transactions of those 
 two days, if those stoppages or collisions had not occurred — if your real 
 transactions, as you admit them, had gone through without any inter- 
 ference ? — A. If the panic had not occurred, we should probably have got 
 our full commissions, which we did not succeed in getting. That would 
 have been the only benefit we should have got. They only allowed one- 
 half the usual commissions, and we would have saved, of course, all the 
 losses consequent upon the panic, which were very large. 
 
 By Mr. BurchABD : 
 Q. What was the shape in which you held the eleven millions of gold 
 which you had on Thursday ?— ^A. Of course it was loaned out. Our 
 capital was not sufficient to carry so much. For instance, I bought 
 $100,000 in gold at 137, and immediately loaned it to you at 137, and 
 you paid me for it, therefore I would be just square on that transaction. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. In these various loans of gold, was gold really transferred ? — A. 
 No, sir ; it was done through the clearing-house. The clearing-house 
 was the machine by which those parties were able to handle so large an 
 amount of gold, and was' the cause, in my opinion, of all this trouble. 
 You make a statement of the amount of gold you have on hand, and 
 give it to the party who is short of gold, and he puts it through the 
 clearing-house. It is merely a transfer of tickets. 
 
 By Mr. BuECHAED : 
 
 Q. So that no gold passes ? — A. Of course it would be utterly impos- 
 sible for any one in the street to deliver or receive five hundred millions 
 of gold. Gold that is actually bought for use by the merchants comes 
 to the of&ce of the broker from the clearing-house. 
 
 Q. You had the right then to call for eleven millions of gold ? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; from thirty or forty different brokers. 
 
 Q. And it was your option to demand the gold or its price ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You could refuse to take the gold, and could demand the market 
 price ? — A. No, sir ; we could not refuse to take the gold. That was 
 where Smith, Martin, Gould & Co. compelled the street to settle upon 
 their terms. The street had the power to deliver to them all the gold 
 which they had loaned. Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. said they could not 
 take the gold, but that they would pay the difference in currency; 
 Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. claiming that they could take aH the gold 
 whenever the clearing-house was reopened. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 81 
 
 By tlie Ohaieman: 
 
 Q. What persons did you understand formed the gold clique forwjioui 
 you did business on those two days ? — A. I can only speak of it from 
 the interviews I had on the Sunday following. 
 
 Q. Name the persons who you understood belonged to what is known as 
 the gold clique. — A. I have no means of knowing anything further than 
 mere street rumor and talk. 1 can only speak of what I saw myself a day 
 or two after the panic. I came back to New York on the Sunday following 
 the panic, and ascertained from my partner the state of affairs of our con- 
 cern. I saw, as I supposed, that we were hopelessly swamped by the ac- 
 tion of those parties. I then went with him to see Jay Gould and Mr. Fisk 
 at the opera house on the evening of Sunday, to ascertain what they pro- 
 posed to do. My partner was hardly in his senses, and knew not what 
 to do. I had it, consequently, on my shoulders to see those people. I 
 saw them at the opera house on Sunday evening. The room was occu- 
 pied by Fisk and G-ould and their counsel, by offlcers of the Gold Ex- 
 change Bank and their counsel, and by several brokers, and the subject 
 of conversation seemed to be how they should get the Gold Bank out of 
 its difficulties. I went to Fisk and Gould, and asked them personally 
 whether they proposed to protect us as their brokers in these matters. 
 They said they did. 1 then said, " We shall expect to-morrow collateral 
 security or checks sufficient to protect us against all possible loss." They 
 then promised to give some bonds and some cash, mentioning some of 
 the bonds, and stating what they would do the next day. Subsequently 
 the whole party, counsel and all, went down to the Gold Exchange Bank 
 to see what arrangements could be made for the purpose of getting out 
 of the bank the money which belonged to different parties ; and the 
 operations for the next two days were devoted by Fisk and Gould and 
 their counsel, and our counsel, and the counsel of other brokers' houses, 
 to get the bank running again, so as to get the money. Finally, by the 
 hands of a receiver, it was obtained. After that, I went repeatedly for 
 ten days to the opera house, two or three times a day, and two or three 
 times a night, to try to procure interviews -nith Fisk and Gould, but I 
 was always refused admittance, and 1 never succeeded in getting bonds 
 or cash. I only inferred, from what I saw and heard, that Fisk, and 
 Gould, and Belden were the managers of this gold combination. 
 
 Q. Did you receive any money in settlement from the receiver of the 
 Gold Exchange Bank ? — A. Yes, sir, we received nearly all the money 
 that was due to us. 
 
 Q. Prom which of the two receivers ? — A. I think it was from Mr. 
 Jordan. 
 
 Q. Were any payments made to you by order of the court ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. The court ordered some specified sums to be paid to you ? — A. No, 
 sir. The court ordered that our account should be settled ; that what- 
 ever was due us should be paid as soon as it was ascertained what it was. 
 The Gold Bank owed us a million of dollars on the evening of Friday. 
 
 Q. And these payments were made by order of the court? — ^A. Yes, 
 gradually, as the statement was found to be correct. The order of the 
 court was to pay us, as the amounts were found correct. I believe 
 that the priority was given in certain matters by order of the court — ^not 
 to us particularly, but to certain houses — ^before they should pay out 
 generally. That is what I have understood. I have never seen the 
 order of the court. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge that any officer of the United States 
 H. Eep. 31 6 
 
82 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 government had anything to do, directly or indirectly, with -what is 
 known as the gold ring ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Have you had any transactions with a man named Corbin ?— A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. You do not know Corbin in this business ? — A. I do not know 
 him. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. How long previous to the gold panic had you left the city ? — A. I 
 had been away for over two months on my vacation. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say that without the existence of the- gold 
 clearing-house it would have been impossible for those parties to have 
 carried on this movement in gold 1 — A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. Explain why it would have been impossible for them, or for other 
 parties so disposed, to have brought about this condition of things 
 without the aid and assistance of this clearing-house ? — A. It is very 
 clear from the condition of the gold market from the 25th of Septem- 
 ber, for thirty days, when there was 'no clearing-house, and when 
 gold was steady between 29J and 31, that all the legitimate business 
 in gold that merchants required can be done without the assistance 
 of any clearing-house. Only those who could pay for the gold when 
 they bought it, bought any gold. With the clearing-house in existence, 
 a man who has got $1,000 can go into the Gold Exchange and buy 
 $100,000 of gold. Sometimes a man with only that capital will buy 
 half a million of gold, expecting to sell it out shortly at a quarter of one 
 per cent, profit for example — what they call making a turn. Now, if this 
 clearing-house was not in existence, and if Heath & Co. bought $500,000 
 in gold, they would have to receive the gold and pay, say, $650,000 in 
 currency for it, or in certified checks. And the man who buys that 
 same gold from them has got to have the money and pay for it. That 
 he is not able to do, for he is only worth $1,000. But the clearing-house 
 says : " We will take this $500,000 claim and pay the quarter of one per 
 cent." Five hundred millions of gold were attempted to be cleared by 
 that clerical machine. Mr. Speyer's bids for millions and millions of 
 gold would not have been attempted, probably because he would have 
 been required to give checks for the amounts. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Do I understand you to say that the gold bank is to the gold 
 business of New York a good deal what the gambling-house at Baden- 
 Baden is to people who have a little money to risk ? — A. It does not 
 occupy exactly the position of the keeper of a gambling-house. It is the 
 machinery, of course, by which people can speculate, and by which legit- 
 imate business is done with more safety. It offers the facilities for a 
 man of small capital to deal in large amounts of gold. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. Were you in business at the time the gold clearing-house was 
 established? — A. Yes^ 
 
 Q. What did you understand to have been its origin and purpose ?— 
 A. You must recollect that the Gold Exchange Bank was started in the 
 last year of the war, or early in 1867, I believe. The speculations in 
 gold were very great. There were two reasons for establishing it; first, 
 for the purpose of facilitating exchange in dealing with those large 
 amounts of gold. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 83 
 
 Q. Facilitating speculation? — A. Or assisting principally in cstab- 
 lisMng differences ; it amounts to the same thing. The other reason 
 was to prevent the constant robberies that were attempted on boys and 
 men carrying gold checks or coin about with them. 
 
 Q. Then it was really established, as you suppose, in the interest of 
 those who wished to speculate in gold 1 — A. Not altogether in ' their 
 interest. Some of the leading bankers and brokers in New York not 
 doing a speculation business were connected with it ; and are still, I 
 believe, on the board of direction. 
 
 Q. But I understand you to say that operations in gold can be carried 
 on better without it ? — A. Certainly ,jexcept for the matter of convenience 
 and of danger, which is very material ; and it aids in the transactions 
 of legitimate gold business. "What I mean to have the committee 
 understand is, that in my opinion the September gold panic could not 
 have happened but for the facility which the clearing-house gave for 
 handling large amounts of gold. 
 
 Except so far as relates to facts, and figures taken from the books of 
 the iirm of William Heath & Co., now in my possession, the above testi- 
 mony, so far as it relates to transactions previous to September 23, is 
 simply hearsay, as I did not return to New York till September 23. 
 
 Washington, January 19, 1870. 
 Witness recalled and examination continued. 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. You stated in your examination yesterday that youhave had in- 
 terviews with Fisk and Gould since the 24th of September. Was anv 
 distinction made in those interviews between the gold belonging to Fisk 
 and Gould, and Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., or was it all considered as 
 one account? — Answer. They were so considered by us. 
 
 Q. Did you settle with them as one. account? — A. Yes, sir; Smith, 
 Gould, and Martin settled everything. 
 
 Q. They settled for Fisk? — A. Yes; they settled everything. On 
 that occasion I remember this circumstance: Mr. Gould had an account 
 of the Fisk purchase of $3,025,000 in his hand on the evening when I, 
 with Mr. Heath, saw him. He handed it to Mr. Heath and said: ''I do 
 not require this. Fisk has got a notice of that purchase." Whereupon 
 Mr. Heath said : "Mr. Gould, you know that the understanding is that, 
 although we bought by order of Mr. Fisk, you were also interested in it, 
 and it was a joint account." Whereupon, Mr. Gould said : "Very well, 
 Mr. Fisk has all the notice necessary." Then Mr. Heath repeated again 
 the understanding that it was a joint account affair, and Mr. Fisk said, 
 "Well, we prefer to have it in this way. Whatever I do, Mr. Gould 
 stands by me;" and Gould said: "That is so, but I jjrefer for certain 
 reasons to have it as it is." We both had the understanding that Fisk 
 and Gould were to stand by each other. 
 
 Q. That they acknowledged themselves partners in the whole matter ? — 
 A. Yes; in the three millions. There was no dispute about the gold 
 for Smith, Gould & Martin. The stocks and gold and everything else 
 that Gould has bought and sold for the last three years have been ta- 
 ken care of by Smith, Gould & Martin. 
 
 Q. State whether their brokers were Smith, Gould & Martin. — A. I 
 cannot say positively. My impression is that in those gold transactions 
 
84 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 they employed generally all who would work for them in the street. 
 Those specially interested were Speyers, Dornin, and Bocock, (who were 
 brokers for Belden & Co., and Belden & Co. were supposed to be brokers 
 for the clique,) Gray, Prince & Co., Carver & Co., Dzondi, Springer & 
 Co.; and there were Various banking-houses in the street, not strictly 
 brokers, that were carrying gold for them upon commission — carrying 
 the actual coin and locking it up in the bank with the understanding 
 that they should not part with it. 
 
 Q. When Smith, Gould & Martin assumed and settled Fisk's gold, was 
 any reason given why they did so? — No, sir; the reason Smith gave was 
 that although they were not in any way responsible for Fisk's gold, 
 he wanted us to understand that if we would help them to settle their 
 eight millions in the way they proposed, (and that way was by compro- 
 mise,) they would help us out of our difficulty. That is the reason that 
 Mr. Smith gave, disclaiming at the same time all interest in Fisk's gold. 
 
 Q. Did the firm of Smith, Gould & Martin make any threat against 
 your firm in regard to sottlements ; and if so, what ? — A. I remember that, 
 one day when there was some difficulty caused by a misunderstanding 
 on the part of Smith in regard to $750,000 of gold which was received 
 for their account from Speyers, Mr. Smith, supposing that it was a pur- 
 chase of gold not previously reported, came into our ofS.ce in a very ex- ' 
 cited and angry condition, and wanted to know what I meant. He then 
 threatened that if we did not take care, he would " smash us all to 
 pieces," and that he could do it. I oniy recollect the threat ; I do not 
 remember the precise language that he used, except the words that he 
 would "smash us all to pieces;" I remember that. I then explained 
 that it was the gold already reported, and that he had misunderstood it, 
 which explanation was satisfactory. 
 
 Washington, January 18, 1870. 
 
 John H. Stout sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Question. State your place of residence, your business, and place of 
 business. — Answer. I reside in Brooklyn, New York. My late business 
 was cashier of the Tenth ISTatioual Bank of the city of 1S&\7 York. 
 
 Q. During what period were you cjishier of that bank? — A. From the 
 organization of the bank till the 11th of January last. 
 
 Q. During which period you were familiar with its history and affairs? 
 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the capital of the bank? — A. A million of dollars. 
 
 Q. State what transfers of the stock of that bank, if any, were made 
 during the past summer, and state by whom the majority of the stock 
 is held. — A. I have here a statement of the entire transfers from the 
 1st of January, 1869, till the 1st of January, 1870. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with those men in New York commonly known 
 as the members of the gold clique? — A. Some of them. 
 
 Q. State to the committee whether any of them are, to your knowl- 
 edge, or have been during the past summer, stockholders in the Tenth 
 National Bank. — A. Some of them have been and still are. 
 
 Q. To what extent were they holders of stock? — A. I now refer to 
 the firm of Smith, Goiild & Martin. There were at one time a little over 
 five thousand shares of stock — half a million — ^transferred to Jay Gould, 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 85 
 
 and he transferred in a few days afterward a large portion of that to 
 several other parties, not, I presume, connected with the gold clique. 
 The only transfer that was made at any time to any parties having any 
 connection with the gold clique, that I know of, was this transfer of over 
 five thousand shares to Jay Gould. 
 
 Q. At what time was this purchase of half a million of stock made by 
 Jay Gould? — A. On the 5th of August. 
 
 Q. Did the transfer give him all the rights of a stockholder at that 
 time? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was that a majority of the stock? — A. Yes, sir; he had 5,010 
 shares transferred to him on that day, making $501,000 wortji at par 
 value of the capital. 
 
 Q. From whom did he purchase this stock; from one or from several 
 parties? — A. It was standing in the name of several parties. I perceive 
 that there were prior to that, on the 27th of July, fifty -six shares trans- 
 ferred to Jay Gould, and also on the 29th of that month, forty -five 
 shares. 
 
 Q. State to the committee whether any change of the officers or 
 managers of the bank was made shortly after or immediately after the 
 transfer to Jay Gould? — ^A. No change was made in the officers of the 
 bank until the 11th day of January last. 
 
 Q. When what occurred ? — ^A. When there was a change in the officers 
 and directors. That was the day of election, and there was an entire 
 change both as to officers and directors. 
 
 Q. According to the rules of the bank, have the stockholders any 
 power over its management except through the annual election ? — A. 
 None whatever. 
 
 Q. So far as you know was there any change in the policy or manage- 
 ment of the bank after the purchase by Jay Gould, and before the elec- 
 tion ? — ^A. There was no change whatever. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Gould keep his accounts in that bank ? — A. Gould, Smith, 
 Martin & Ob. opened an account with the bank shortly afterward. 
 
 Q. Has their account since that time been a heavy one ? — A. It was 
 a heavy and active account up to the day before the gold sijeculation 
 culminated. 
 
 Q. On the day before the panic what was the amount of deposits held 
 in your bank to the credit of Goiild, Smith, Martin & Co. ? — A. I have 
 not brought the memorandum of that with me. I did not understand 
 the summons to include that. Their balance during that week varied 
 from $40,000 to $120,000. 1 have brought with me a memorandum of 
 the amounts they deposited, and the amount they drew each day of the 
 week. 
 
 Q. Please state the transactions of the bank with the firm of Gould, 
 Smith, Martin & Co. during the days of the panic ? — A. On Monday, 
 September 20th, they deposited $1,737,807 25 in currency, and drew 
 $1,739,262 50; on Tuesday, September 21st, they deposited $1,360,661 37 
 in currency, and drew $1,363,047 99 ; on Wednesday, September 22d, 
 they deposited $1,000,000 in currency, and drew $996,085 47; on Thurs- 
 day, September 23d, they deposited $7,829,637 48 in currency, and drew 
 $7,640,809 86; on Friday, September 24th, they deposited $167,823 71 
 in currency, and drew $303,358 62 ; on Saturday, September 25th, they 
 deposited nothing, and drew $105,482 50. 
 
 Q.Was there in every case an actual deposit of currency on their 
 part? — A. There was an actual deposit of certified checks. 
 
 Q. Checks certified by the different banks ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
86 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. How many banks should yon think had certified checks in the list 
 that they deposited with you ?— A. I should judge from six to ten. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect how large the largest single check was ? — ^A. I do 
 not. It would not come to my knowledge at all. The deposits arc re- 
 ceived by the tellers, and, unless there was some special reason for me 
 to examine them, I would not know. 
 
 Q. State to the committee what amount of checks was certified by 
 your bank during those days ?— A. As it was a very busy week I can 
 scarcely say. I suppose that on one day there probably was an amount 
 of twenty-four millions certified ; that was very much the largest of any 
 day. 
 
 Q. What day was that?— A. That I think was on Thursday. 
 
 Q. How much on l^riday? — A. I cannot answer that question. The 
 large bulk of the money that was drawn out upon that day, and every 
 day, was upon certified checks. 
 
 Q. During the month previous to that, and for some months, what 
 was the average amount of checks certified by your bank ? — A. From 
 five to twelve millions, twelve millions being the largest amount. This 
 one of twenty-four millions that I spoke of was very much larger than 
 on any other day. 
 
 Q. State what amount of checks was certified for Smith, Gould & Martin 
 during that day ? — A. I presume that all that they drew was certified, 
 or a A'ery large portion of them. The whole amounts that I mentioned 
 as drawn by them were, as a general principle, certified checks. 
 
 Q. Did J. Pisk, jr., have an account in that bank? — A. ^o, sir; his 
 name has never been on our books in any form or shape, or for any 
 purpose. 
 
 Q. Did Heath & Co. h-ave any account with that bank ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 Allow me to state that when I say we certified this amount of checks it. 
 was only upon the receipt of other certified checks. 
 
 Q. State the amount of checks certified for William Heath & Co 1— 
 A. I will give you the total amounts which they drew upon the several 
 days of that week, and I suppose the bulk of them was on certified checks. 
 On September the 20th they drew $394,800 91 ; on September the 21st 
 they drew $323,722 45; on September the 22d they drew $249,365 80; 
 on September the 23d they drew $1,979,099 87 ; on September the 24tli 
 they drew $400,362 95 ; on September the 25th they drew $102 25. 
 
 Q. State whether Mr. Belden kept an account with your bank ? — ^A. 
 He did not. I had no transactions with him. 
 
 Q. Did any other person or firm, commonly supposed to belong to the 
 gold ring, have accounts in your bank so far as you know ? — A. Not 
 any. 
 
 Q. Did any of the persons to whom you have referred overdraw their 
 accounts on those days ? — ^A. William Heath & Co. did. 
 
 Q. To what extent? — ^A. Their account was overdrawn to about 
 $145,000. 
 
 Q. Did Smith, Gould & Martin overdraw their account? — ^A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. In your subsequent settling of these transactions did you find any 
 difficulty in making settlement with the checks which you had received, 
 and for which you issued your certified checks ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. State, as near as you recollect, what proportion of the deposits 
 made in your bank were in currency, and what proportion in certified 
 checks ? — A. A mere trifle was in currency. The main portion of it was 
 in certified checks. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 87 
 
 Q. Did your bank always transact business upon tbe same principle 
 that you acted upon that day? — ^A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. State to the committee what surety you have that there is money 
 behind a certified check which you receive, and upon which you issue 
 your certified check ? — A. The only surety that we have is that the bank 
 certifies it, and that the bank is obliged to pay it whether the party has 
 any funds there or not, 
 
 Q. And do you understand that other banks do in that regard as 
 yours has been 'doing? — ^A. The other banks all do the same thing. 
 
 Q. That is that twenty-four millions may be certified by the bank 
 when but a very small portion of currency has been received on de- 
 posit? — A. Yes, sir; a very small portion, a mere bagatelle of currency 
 is received. 
 
 Q. Did you receive or have presented at your counter, during either of 
 . those days, a check for about $28,000, certified by your bank and held 
 by John Bonner? — A. I have no recollection of such a case. 
 
 Q. Or did John Bonner present a check? — A. It may have been so. 
 I would have said no if Mr. Bonner had not told me since I have been 
 here that he did. 
 
 Q. Did he present a check and demand currency, which was refused or 
 delay asked by your bank ? — A. He may have presented a check there which 
 we may have not asked delay for, but objected to paying on the ground 
 that, as we had received but a' certified check for it, the custom of busi- 
 ness did not warrant him to draw legal tenders upon it on the day it 
 was given, for the implied understanding with the parties was that it 
 was not to be paid until the following day through the exchanges. 
 
 Q. State what occurred in regard to an examination of the bank on 
 the 24th of September, by persons sent from the Treasury Department. — 
 A. There were three examiners sent from the Treasury Department 
 present upon that day examining the bank, 
 
 Q. Did they make any orders iu regard to the business of the bank ? — 
 A. Not any. 
 
 Q. Did the business continue while they were examining? — ^A. It did. 
 
 Q. Did they give no directions restricting the operations of the 
 bank? — A. None. 
 
 Q. Was any change made in the business of the bank or in the mode 
 of doing its business in consequence of their being there? — ^A. Not any, 
 
 Q. Has the bank been closed at all this summer? — ^A. It has not. 
 
 Q. Did it suffer any losses in consequence of the transactions of that 
 week, and if so, to what amount? — A. There is one amount of $75,000 
 not yet paid, 
 
 Q. Why has it not been paid? — A, The party says he has not the 
 means to pay it, 
 
 Q, Was the party connected with these transactions? — ^A, It is Wil- 
 liam Livermore, who charges that he sold gold to Smith, Gould, Martin 
 &Co. 
 
 Q. How large was the amount of checks drawn by him during these 
 transactions ?— A, On the 20th he deposited $262,266 67, and drew 
 $268,940 46 ; on the 21st he deposited $193,590 22, and drew $204,031 ; 
 on the 22d he deposited $194,987 36, and drew $200,632 35 ; on the 23d 
 he deposited $459,486 36, and drew $457,138 75; on the 24th he de- 
 posited $250,242 63, and drew $242,862 50 ; on the 25th he deposited 
 nothing and drew nothing, 
 
 Q. You say you cannot tell what the amount of checks certified by 
 the bank on Friday was ? — ^A, I cannot tell now, I wO send a state- 
 ment of the amount when I return to New York. 
 
88 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Can you tell the committee on what bank Smith, Gould & Mar- 
 tin gave a check for $1,400,000 to pay for a million of gold which they 
 carried for Speyers on the 24th ?— A. I cannot. I have no knowledge 
 of such a check. I have no knowledge whether such a check was given 
 or not. 
 
 Q. State if any examination, aside from the one you mentioned that 
 was made by the three ofiacers of the Treasury, was made of your 
 bank near that time, before or after ?— A. There was, in August. 
 
 Q. By whom?— A. By Mr. Callender, the bank examiner. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Callender in ycur bank, or did you see him during the 
 days of the panic f— A. I saw him on Saturday. He was there ou 
 Saturday. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conference with him in relation to the examina- 
 tion going forward in the bank ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you make any couimunication as cashier to the authorities in 
 Washington in reference to the examination ? — A. None. 
 
 Q. When was it discontinued ? — A. The examiners were examining 
 on Friday, and also commenced on Saturday, but they stopped before 
 the day was out. 
 
 Q. Why ? — A. They gave no reason. I was exceedingly busy that 
 day. It may be that they were through. I had no communication with 
 them. 
 
 Q. I understand you to say that they gave no orders ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Except when they showed you their authoritv in the first place?— 
 A. That is all. 
 
 Q. What was that authority, a general one or a special one ? — A. It 
 was not shown to me. I really do not know whether or not it was 
 shown to the president. The examiners got there before I did, and they 
 must have shown their authority to the teller. 
 
 Q. I understand that you are not now an officer of the bank ? — A. I 
 am not. 
 
 Q. So far as you know, what interest does the present board, elected 
 on the 10th of January, represent, or what people does it represent?— 
 A. It represents, I presume, Jay Gould, William M. Tweed, Peter B. 
 Sweeney, J. H. lugersoll, James Watspu, and a number whose names do 
 not appear here, as the transfers of their stocks were made since the 
 first of January. Jaj Gould, Peter B. Sweeney, Richard B. Connolly, 
 Hugh Smith, Henry Smith, and I believe all the rest are what is usually 
 known as the democratic ring of New York. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any oliicer of the government having any con- 
 nection, directly or indirectly, with the gold panic on the 23d or 24th of 
 September 1 — A. I know nothing about it. 
 
 By Mr. Packer : 
 Q. Was this bank examination brought about by any special circum- 
 stances at that particular time? — A. It was so rumored. I do not know 
 anything about it. The rumor was that parties on the street engaged 
 in speculation reported to the department that we were engaged in the 
 locking up of gold, and I understand that that was the object of that 
 examination. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. State in that connection how much gold you carried in your vaults 
 upon this occasion.— A. On Monday, September 20, we had $124,380 51; 
 on Tuesday, September 21, we had $119,275 58 ; on Wednesday, Sep- 
 tember 22, we had $66,226 54 ; on Thursday, September 23, we had 
 
OOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 89 
 
 $259,795 47; on Friday, September 24, we had $78,422 69; on Satur- 
 day, September 25, we had $17,388 74. 
 
 By Mr. Packer : 
 
 Q. Was that to the general credit of the bank, or was it subject to 
 any orders or checks 1 — ^A. It was the ordinary regular every-day de- 
 posit, and was subject to ■check. I volunteer to say here that no portion 
 of that money belonged to any party having any connection with or en- 
 gaged in the gold speculation of the day. 
 
 Q. Did you certify at any time checks for parties who had not credit 
 in your bank for that amount or more ? — ^A. No, sir. The instructions 
 always were not to certify a check for anybody who had not the amount 
 deposited iu bank to his credit. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Corbin ? — A. I do not. 
 ■ Q. Has he had any transactions at your bank ? — A. None whatever. 
 
 Q. Neither for himself nor anybody else ? — A. His name has never 
 appeared in it. He may have had some interest in something there, 
 but his name never appeared there to my knowledge or to the knowledge 
 of any of the other officers of the bank. He has never had any 
 transactions with the bank whatever. 
 
 Q. Have you had any transactions with General Butterfleld in any 
 way, either directly or indirectly ? — A. I suppose I might answer that 
 question, no. The only transaction we ever had with General Butter- 
 fleld was that he sent a note to the bank requesting us to open an ac- 
 coimt with a party, a commission merchant in Detroit, saying that he 
 might possibly want to overdraw his account to a small amount, and if 
 so, requesting us to allow it, and he would be responsible for that over- 
 draft to the amount of $3,000. 
 
 Q. Was that during the panic ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What time was it ? — ^A. I think it was about the month of July or 
 August last. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Do you recollect the name of the party in Detroit? — ^A. J. G. 
 Irwin. That is the only transaction we ever had with General Butter- 
 field. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Q. Does General Butterfleld, for himself or anybody else for him, so 
 
 far as you know, hold any stock of the Tenth National Bank? A. No, 
 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Has he ever held any ? — A. He never has. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Did you open the account with Irwin ? — A. We did. 
 
 Q. Was it overdrawn? — A. It was overdrawn, and is now overdrawn, 
 to the extent of $2,500. ' 
 
 Q. And Mr. Butterfleld is held responsible for it ? — ^A. We hold him 
 responsible for it. 
 
 Q. What reason does he give for not settling it? — ^A. We have not 
 called on Mr. Butterfleld to settle it. 
 
 Q. Why so? — ^A. Because of the understanding and arrangement- 
 made with him that the party was to overdraw, and that he would be 
 responsible. I wrote to Mr. Irwin a short time ago requesting him to 
 remit, to pay up. He has not done so, and, as yet, or up to the time of 
 
90 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 my leaving New York, nothing had been said to Mr. Butterfleld about 
 it, except that I did one day state to Mr. Butterfleld, before he left the 
 sub-treasury, that the account was overdrawn, and asked hiin if he 
 understood it. He said he did ; that it was all right, and he would see 
 that it was paid. 
 
 Q. You do not know what the consideration was between Irwin and 
 Butterfleld "?— A. I do not know anything about it. I supposed they 
 were personal friends. 
 
 Q. It had no connection, that you know of, with the gold panic?— A. 
 I presume it had none whatever ; it was some considerable time before 
 this gold matter. I think it was in the month of July or August last. 
 
 The following letter was subsequently received by the committee, and 
 directed to be appended to the testimony : 
 
 Tenth Nationai, Bank, 
 25 Broad street, corner Exchange Place, 
 
 Nev) York, January 20, 1870. 
 Dear Sir : In accordance with, your request, I herewith send you a statement of the 
 amounts certified by the ahovo bank for all their dealers during the week from Sep- 
 tember 20, 1869, to September 25, 1869 : 
 
 Monday,20th ...: $14,081,120 32 
 
 Tuesday, 21st 12,401,143 21 
 
 Wednesday, 22d .' 14,270,301 38 
 
 Thursday, 23d 25,530,912 51 
 
 Friday, 24th 14,240,950 45 
 
 Saturday, 25th 903,527 73 
 
 I would again state that these certificates were against nearly similar amounts 
 deposited with us and certified by other banks. 
 
 Yours, respectfully, 
 
 JOHN H. STOUT. 
 General Garfield, 
 
 Chairman Committee on Banking and, Currency, 
 
 Souse of Eeiiresentatives. 
 
 "Washington, Jamuary 19, 1870. 
 
 Lewis. A. Stimson sworn and examined. 
 By the OSAIrman: 
 
 Question. State your place of residence, your place of business, and 
 your occupation. — Answer. My place of residence is Elizabeth, New Jer- 
 sey ; my place of business is 18 Wall street, New York City; my occu- 
 pation is stock broker; the style of the firm is Litchfield, Dana & 
 Stimson. 
 
 Q. Were you engaged in your business on the 23d and 24:th of Sep- 
 tember last i — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Had you any power of attorney, and if so, from whom 1 — A. I had 
 a power of attorney to operate in the gold-room for William Belden. 
 
 Q. State what your instructions were from him. — A. My general 
 instructions were to fill aU his orders; to buy and sell for him as orders 
 were given. The special instructions that I had on Thursday, the 23d, 
 I believe, were to put gold to 144 and to keep it there. 
 
 Q. Were your instructions wholly received from Belden? — A. Yes, 
 sir ; from nobody else. 
 
 Q. Did you understand, when you received those instructions, that 
 the business was for Mr. Belden's personal account, or for other parties 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 91 
 
 ■with him? — A. I had no understanding on the matter. I simply 
 received my orders from him. 
 
 Q. State your transactions on those two days under the orders of Mr. 
 Belden.— A. On the 23d, about eleven or half-past eleven o'clock, I 
 received this order from Mr, Belden to put gold to 144 and to keep it 
 there. In execution of that order I bought about seven and one-fourth 
 millions of gold. While I was purchasing Mr. Belden came to the gold- 
 room, and I looked up to him, in an inquiring way, to know whether I 
 was to continue purchasing ; he nodded that I should do so. A little 
 later I wrote a note to him asking him if he wished me to stay there all 
 the day, and he sent back word that I might return to the office. That 
 purchase of seven and one-fourth millions was all that I did for him 
 that day. The next day he sent me to the gold-room to lend all the 
 gold that I could ; that was on Friday morning. 
 
 Q. What instructions did he give you ? — A. Specially to lend all the 
 'gold that I could. I went back and told him that other brokers were 
 there, offering to lend gold for Wm. Belden & Co. at rates above seven 
 per cent., and that they were interfering with my business, particularly 
 one man named Zerega. He told me to send this man to him. I after- 
 ward went back and told him of the high rates, and he told me to lend 
 gold at any rate, but to lend it. I do not know how much I loaned, but 
 I think it was perhaps one-quarter million ; not more. I am now speak- 
 ing of Friday. 
 
 Q. That is all you loaned on that day ? — A. I do not know the amount, 
 but I should not think that it was above a quarter of a million. 
 
 Q. Did you buy any gold for him that day ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you sell any ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have any transactions or conversations with Mr. B. K. 
 Willard ? — A, Tes ; on Friday Mr. WiUard met me in the gold-room, 
 and said to me, "Tell Belden to mark his gold to 160." That was the 
 sentence he used. 
 
 Q. What relation did Willard sustain to Belden which gave him the 
 right to make an order concerning Belden's gold ? — ^A. This was simply 
 a message which I bore for him to Mr. Belden. I know of no existing 
 relations between them. 
 
 Q. Did you bear the message ? — A. I tried to, but I did not find Mr. 
 Belden, and I gave the message to one of Belden's partners. 
 
 Q. In whose behalf did you believe that WiUard spoke to you ? — A. 
 I supposed he spoke for the clique. 
 
 Q. Whom do you mean by the clique 1 — A. Fisk and Gould were 
 popularly supposed to constitute the clique. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Belden a member of the clique ? — A. That I do not know ; 
 I never thought that Mr. Belden had an interest in the cliqufe. 
 
 Q. That is, you did not at that time ? — A. From what I knew of Mr. 
 Pelden, I did not think that Mr. Belden would have a share either in 
 the risks or profits of the clique. 
 
 Q. What reason had you to suppose that WiUard belonged to the 
 clique ? — A. I only supposed that WUlard was a broker for the clique ; 
 I did not know he was a member of it. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of WUlard's relations to J. Fisk, jr. ? — A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of your own that toy officer of the gov- 
 ernment of the United States had anything to do with that gold cUque 
 in IS'ew York on any of those days 1 — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any personal acquaintance with any officers of the gov- 
 ernment ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
92 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Did you see auy of them -whom you supposed to be officers of the 
 go\'ernmeut, and who appeared from anything that you saw to be con- 
 cerned in it in auy way '?— A. Ino, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Fisk and Mr. Gould?— A. I know them both 
 by sight. 
 
 Q. And Mr. Heatli 1—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation, or did you hear any conversation 
 of theirs on any of those days '?— A. liio, sir. I did hear a conversation 
 of Fisk's on that Friday ; I heard him say to a gentleman, " These are 
 high old times." That 'was just before he made his departure from Wall 
 street, at half past one o'clock in the afternoon. 
 
 By Mr. CoBUEN: 
 
 Q. You did not hear him give any directions to any agent as to the 
 mode of transacting business "? — A. No, sir. 
 
 .Q. Did your firm lose anything by the transactions of the day ? — A., ' 
 I was not a member of the firm then. I was operating that day as a 
 clerk for Mr. Belden. 
 
 Q. Concerning the gold which you bought and loaned for Belden, was 
 it cleared regularly, and settled for according to the usual rules ? — A. I 
 think not. Mr. Belden's statement for that day was only made for 
 about five millions, and I alone the day before purchased for him seven 
 millions. His statement was thrown out from the clearing-house. 
 
 Q. Did you give him up as your principal ? — A. I was acting on his 
 power of attorney. 
 
 Q. So that you were not personally responsible for any of your trans- 
 actions 1 — A. No, sir ; not for the transactions in gold. 
 
 Q. Did you buy of the clique brokers, as far as you know ? — A. I do 
 not know. 
 
 Q. At how high a rate did you buy ? — A. The highest rate that I 
 bought at was 144; I think I bought one hundred thousand at that. 
 
 Q. Did you pay anything for the gold that you bought, in currency 
 or otherwise ! — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You bought seven millions, for which you paid nothing? — ^A. For 
 which I i^aid nothing ; but I gave up Wm. Belden & Co., who were 
 bound by my pov/er of attorney to complete the contract. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 ' Q. Did Mr. Willard give you any other orders beside those you Have 
 already mentioned °! — A. After my return from the office Mr. Willard 
 met me and asked me if I had seen Belden ; I said I had not, and he 
 replied, " Damn it, find him." 
 
 Q. Did he give this order to you with a tone of authority ; did you 
 understand that he had a right to give such orders concerning the mat- 
 ter, or did you consider him an intermeddler 1 — ^A. No, sir ; he gave me 
 individually no order ; he gave me simply a message for Mr. Belden. 
 
 By Mr. Cobtjen : 
 
 Q. What is the business of Mr. Willard? — ^A, He is a stock-broker; 
 his office is on Exchange Place. 
 
 Q. Is he in business with a firm? — A. He is now E. K. Willard & 
 Co., but last summer he was B. K. Willard. 
 
 By the Chaikman : 
 
 Q. You understood him to be acting as their agent on that day ? A. 
 
 Yes, sir. During two years past he had done a good deal of business 
 for Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 93 
 
 Washington, JantMry 19, 1870. 
 
 Edwin S. Chapin sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State your residence, your place of business, and occupa- 
 tion? — Answer. I reside at 111 West Forty-fourth street, New York; my 
 place of business is 17 Broad street. lama broker. The firm, previous 
 to the first of January last, was Chapin, Bowen & Day. It dissolved 
 on the first of January. 
 
 Q. State whether you were doing business as a broker in the month 
 of September last as a partner in the firm you have named ? — ^A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. State whether you have been in the habit of doing business before 
 September last for any of the following i^arties : Smith, Gould, Martin 
 & Co., Jay Gould, Henry M. Smith, James D. Bach, J. risk, jr., Wm. 
 Belden & Co., B. K. Willard, Heath & Co., Carver & Co. I— A. I have 
 done business for Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. for probably a year pre- 
 viously. I have never done anything for Mr. Gould or Mr. Fisk that I 
 recollect. I do not think I ever executed an order for either of them 
 individually ; but I have done large business for Smith, Gould, Martin 
 & Co. I have done business for Mr. Smith individually, but for none of 
 the others. I do not think I have ever executed any order for B. K. 
 Willard or for Carver & Co. 
 
 Q. Did you in September last buy gold for any of these parties? if 
 so, specify the amounts bought. — A. (Eeferring to part of the purchase 
 and sale book.) We bought for Smith; Gould, Martin & Co. gold as 
 follows : On the 20th of August, $750,000 ; on the 21st of August, 
 $2,050,000; on the 25th of August, $200,000; on the 27th of August, 
 $200,000 ; on the 2d of September, $1,315,000, at 134J ; on the 3d of Sep- 
 tember, $170,000, at 136 ; on the 4th of September, $185,000, at 136| 
 and 137 ; on the 6th of September, $440,000, at 137 ; on the 10th of Sep- 
 ber, $170,000, at 135 ; on the 15th of September, $50,000, at 136 ; on 
 the 16th of September, $825,000, at 136J. That is the last of the pur- 
 chases made by us for Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. 
 
 By Mr. BuKCHAED: 
 Q. Were those orders to buy at discretion or at fixed rates ? — A. In 
 almost every case the orders were limited to buy at a certain price. 
 
 By the Chaieman: 
 
 Q. Who gave the orders to buy this amount of gold ? — A. Mr. Smith 
 of the firm of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. ' 
 
 Q. After buying these amounts of gold what were your instructions 
 to do with the same?-^A. Sometimas we were instructed to clear it 
 through the clearing-house, and to send it to them ; but almost all of 
 this gold was kept by ourselves and loaned in the market for them. The 
 bulk of the gold was carried by my firm by lending it out to different 
 parties from day to day. 
 
 Q. Now proceed with the statement of your sales. — A. On the 23d 
 day of September, which is the first day of sales, we sold $8,100,000. 
 
 Q. Give the items. — A. We sold to the following parties : Wm. Belden 
 &Co., $200,000 at 143^; C.C. Parks & Co., $200,000 at 143f; Albert Speyers 
 
 & Co., $2,500,000 at 143|; GrinneU, $100,000 at 143|.; W. W 
 
 Belden & Co., $3,100,000 at 143 ; W. W. Belden & Co., $fJOO,000 at 143f • 
 
 Patterson, $100,000 at 143f ; W. W. Belden &Co., $200,000 at 143 • 
 
 W. W. Belden & Co., $100,000 at 143f ; Albert Speyers, $100,000 at 143' ; 
 
94 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Jno. Ponder, $50,000 at 143 : W. W. Belden & Co., $100,000 at 143 ; W. 
 W. Belden & Co., $100,000 at 143*; Albert Speyers, $100,000 at 143 J; 
 W. W. Belden & Co., $150,000 at 143|. ; W. W. Belden & Co., $100,000 
 at 143f . The order to sell this gold was given to me by Mr. Smith, on 
 the 23d of September, with instructions to give it to other parties 
 to sell. Wm. M. Parks & Co. sold seven millions of that gold for us. 
 Stout & Dickinson sold $850,000, and Whitely & Nielson $250,000. I 
 did a very large business for them, and very seldom did it myself. I 
 generally gave out three-fourths of the business. 
 
 By Mr. PACKER : 
 
 Q. You were recognized as the broker of Smith, Gould, Martin & 
 Co ? — A. One of the brokers ; they employed quite a number. 
 
 Q. What was the object of giving their business to so many people I— 
 A. To cover up transactions, I suppose ; that is generally the object. 
 On the 24th of September the sales were $2,825,000, at prices from 
 135 to 138. Mostly all the sales were made about 135. These 
 sales were scattered over nearly all the brokers of the board. This 
 was after the break, between twelve and one o'clock, after it was under- 
 stood the thing was up. 
 
 Q. Did you buy none before the break on that day ? — A. No, sir 5 we 
 neither sold nor bought. 
 
 Q. How much were you carrying on the night of the 23d of Septem- 
 ber ?— A. We were carrying for Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. $2,925,000. 
 
 Q. Can you state at what average rate the whole of that was sold 
 out ! — A. It is hard to tell. We had been carrying at one time as high 
 as five millions. We would deliver a lot of gold to Smith, Gould, Mar- 
 tin & Co., and thus we kept decreasing our line. 
 
 Q. How much were you carrying at any one time ? — A. I do not think 
 we were carrying more than five millions at any one time. Here was 
 $8,100,000 that we sold some time during the middle of the day of the 
 23d, so that that night we had really on our books sold more gold than 
 we were carrying, and next day they would have to give us gold to 
 make these surplus deliveries. 
 
 Q. Who gave you the orders for the buying, selling, and loaning of 
 this gold f — A. Mr. Smith. 
 
 Q. Did you receive all your orders from Mr. Smith ? — A. I think I 
 received every order I got in gold from Mr. Smith. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. State what orders you received from him for your transactions 
 in gold previous to the day of the panic ? — A. He gave me an order 
 to buy so much gold, $200,000, $300,000, $400,000, or $500,000, at a 
 given price. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you at any of your interviews with him what his pur- 
 pose was — what his general line of policy was ? — A. Nothing, except 
 that he said gold was going up. 
 
 Q. Did he express that as an opinion of his, merely as to the current 
 course of business 1 — A. He would express it generally in my presence; 
 not particularly to me, but in my presence. I often heard him say that 
 gold was going up. 
 
 Q. Well, now coming down to the day of, or the day before, the panic, 
 the transactions you allude to include the 23d, and were carried on in 
 obedience to special orders received that morning or the evening be- 
 fore ?— A. Yes ; the 23d. I got instructions about the middle of the day, 
 Thursday. 
 
 Q. Did you receive a note or go to his offtce?— A. I was sent for to 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 95 
 
 come to the office. It was within two or three doors. He gave me the 
 order verbally. 
 
 Q. What occurred beside merely giving you the order 1 — A. He told 
 me to sell iu the neighborhood of ten millions of gold. The thing 
 was done as quick as a iiash ; he just gave me the order and away he 
 went. 
 
 Q. Did he fix the rate ? — A. I do not remember whether he did or 
 not. The price was then, if I recollect rightly, about 43. , 
 
 Q. Were you ordered to sell on the market? You certainly must have 
 had some instructions. — A. If there was any limit set I forget what 
 the limit was. 
 
 Q. How did you act in respect to rate ? — A. I gave an order to Wm. 
 M. Parks & Co. to sell three millions of gold. I afterward sent another 
 order telling them to sell four millions more. He did not mention any 
 special party ; I selected Parks and Co. of my own free will and ac- 
 cord. 
 
 Q. Who else was present? — k. I think no one else at all was present. 
 I went to his office; whether it was in the front part or the back part of 
 the office, I forget. 
 
 Q. Did you understand that this was for Smith, Gould & Martin 
 alone, or for them with others ? — A. I asked no questions. I understood 
 it was for Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. 
 
 Q, In your clearing-house transactions next day, in whoso name 
 did you make settlement 1 — A. In the name of Wm. M. Parks. I made 
 the bank a statement also as broker. As the bank broke that day, 
 however, the statement amounted to nothing at all. 
 
 Q. Did you finally complete your settlement for this firm during 
 those two days, regularly and satisfactorily ? — A. Tes, sir ; except the 
 three or four hundred thousand dollars I have before mentioned, which 
 was sold after the break, and which was not settled. It was some ten 
 days before the thing was finally closed up, and it was not then closed 
 in regard to this three or four hundred thousand dollars. 
 
 By Mr. Cobuen : 
 
 Q. Was the failure to settle this last amount in consequence of the 
 action of Smith, Gould & Martin, or persons of whom they bought? — 
 A. O, no; it was the persons who bought gold of them and then didn't 
 take it. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Did you report the names of the persons to whom you loaned gold 
 from time to time ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did Smith, Gould & Martin give you any orders to report for their 
 information the names of the persons to whom you loaned gold? — A. 
 Sometimes they did ; and when they did the names were always given. 
 
 Q. What do you suppose was their object in asking you to specify 
 the names of the parties to whom you loaned gold? Is that usual? — 
 A. No, sir, it is not. I can merely say that I did as I was directed. I 
 presume, however, they wanted to know who was "short" in gold. 
 
 Q. So far as you know, what was the object of the parties to whom 
 you made loans of gold in borrowing it of you ? — A. The fair presump- 
 tion is that they were "short." 
 
 Q. When people are "short" of gold are they compelled to borrow ? — 
 A. That is the custom. If they make a contract to deliver a certain 
 amount of gold, they are obliged to have the gold, and unless they do 
 have it they must borrow it. 
 
 Q. Do you understand that the most, if not all, the gold that you 
 
96 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 loaned on those days was borrowed on tl^t account ? — A. That I cannot 
 say to a certainty. As I remarked before, it is only a fair presumption 
 that the borrowers were short of gold. 
 
 Q. Did any other brokers, acting for the same parties as yourself, to 
 your knowledge make similar reports of persons to whom gold had been 
 lent by them "! — A. I do not know positively. 
 
 Q. Did you receive your orders to sell, and your orders to buy, and 
 your orders to loan, all of the same party ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And that party was Mr. Smith? — A. Yes, sir; I do not think I 
 got any order for anything of that kind from any one else but Mr. 
 Smith. Certainly never from Mr. Gould or Mr. Fisk. I may have 
 received orders in particular cases from Mr. Bache or Mr. Martin, both 
 members of the firm. My instructions came from the members of that 
 firm, and so far as I remember, all orders came invariably from Mr. 
 Smith. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. Were you advised by any member of the firm as to parties who, 
 in their estimation, were short of gold? — A. No, sir; I do not recollect 
 anything of that kind. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Was the amount you were directed to sell limited? — ^A. As I said 
 before, I do not recollect in regard to that, except that the order was to 
 sell about ten millions of gold. I sold only $8,100,000. 
 
 Q. Were you directed, on the 23d or 24th of September, not to sell 
 to any particular brokers? If so, state their names. — ^A. I had no such 
 instructions on the 23d. On the 24th, after the break, I had instruc- 
 tions to sell, not below 35, but not to sell to Mr. Belden or Mr. Speyers. 
 
 Q. Did you, without instructions, from your own observation as to 
 how matters were moving, refuse to sell to any particular persons during 
 the 23d or 24th, and before the break ? — A. IsTo, sir ; I never refused 
 anybody's bid. 
 
 Q. When you sold did you always sell to the highest bidder ? — ^A. 
 Yes, sir ; I generally took the best bid. 
 
 Q. Did you always, during this transaction, sell to the highest bid- 
 der? — A. If you will state particularly what transaction you refer to, I 
 will answer definitely. 
 
 Q. State whether, in sales made by yourself, or by other persons for 
 you, you ever sold for less than the highest bid offered? — ^A. Bo, sir. 
 
 Q. While you were selling, or while your agents were selling, did 
 Albert Speyers bid for gold at a higher rate than you were selling for ?— 
 A. On the 24th, whatever gold was sold at all, was sold either by 
 myself or by my brother. 
 
 Q. Did you sell any to Mr. Speyers? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Why not?— A. I had instructions, after the break, not to sell any 
 to Belden or Speyers. 
 
 Q. Who instructed you thus? — A. Mr. Smith. 
 
 Q. Did he give you. any reason?— A. No, sir. That was all he said. 
 He gave me his order, quick as a flash, on the sidewalk. I remember 
 it distinctly. He said I was to sell five millions of gold, not below 35, 
 but not to sell to Belden or Speyers. 
 
 Q. That was while Speyers was bidding GO by the million ? — ^A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. What was the meaning of that order not to sell to those parties, 
 when they were bidding higher than you were selling for? — A. I do not 
 know ; I simply obeyed instructions. I did not understand it myself. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 97 
 
 Q. Did you not believe that Mr. Speyers was buying for tbese same 
 parties for whom you were selling ? — ^A. I did not know. 
 
 Q. What do you think 1 — ^A. I do not think that Speyers was offering 
 for Smith, Gould & Martin; my belief is that he got his orders &om 
 .Pisk; not that I know anything about it — ^that is merely what I should 
 imagine. 
 
 Q. I understand you to say that you gave orders to other brokers to 
 sell for the parties you have named. Did you instruct them not to seU 
 for Speyers and Belden? — ^A. No, sir; that was on the 23d. 
 
 Q. That instruction you carried out yourself? — ^A. That instruction I 
 carried out myself, on the 24th. 
 
 Q. Did any person with whom you transacted business, or for whom 
 you transacted business, call on you for margins, or did you demand 
 margins of them, on either of those days ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Why not? Was it not usual for one side or the other to demand 
 margins? — ^A. Yes, sir; for houses with outside customers; and a part 
 of my business is to transact these outside operations for other houses 
 who want their transactions covered. I may say that is our particidar 
 business. Of course we never demand margins of them, for we have 
 confidence in them. We never gave nor received margins in any of the 
 transactions to which I have referred. 
 
 Q. I understand you to say that the gold you purchased for those 
 parties in the earlier part of the month was before the great rise in 
 gold? — A. The transactions commenced about the 21st of August, 
 while I was absent in the country ; the first purchases were made by 
 my brother while I was still away. 
 
 Q. There was no currency actually paid by you, or received by you, in 
 any of these transactions, as purchase money ? — A. I had occasion two or 
 three times to take gold from the clearing bank for these very persons. 
 Of course, we had to give the bank a Currency check in order to get the 
 gold. I recollect giving a check for $700,000 in gold, which I drew out 
 at one time. I had to give a currency check before I could receive the 
 gold. 
 
 Q. What bank certified that check?— A. The Tenth National Bank. 
 
 Q. What did you deposit in that bank for that certified check'? — ^A. 
 I think we got a check from Smith, Gould & Martin for a large por- 
 tion of the amount. linow the Tenth National would not certify that 
 amount for us alone. 
 
 Q. So you had your check certified by the Tenth National Bank, on 
 that day, for $700,000?— A. Yes, sir ; $700,000, in gold, which was some- 
 thing over a million in currency. 
 
 Q. How large a check will the Tenth National Bank certify for you in 
 your ordinarv business ? — A. I think they have probably certified' as 
 high as. $250,000 or $300,000. 
 
 Q. What proof did you give the bank that Smith, Gould' & Martin 
 would stand by you in this matter, so that the bank would' be sure of 
 getting its money ? — A. I did not give any proof at all. I took; it for 
 granted they had confidence in my statements. I deposited, the check 
 from Smith,. Gould & Martin in the bank, in the first place. I do not 
 remember what the amount of that check was, but it was sufficiently 
 large to make them willing to certify our check for the entire amount. 
 
 Q. Besides the gold sold by you, and by your orders, for account of Smith, 
 Gould & Martin, did you act for them in making settlements and com- 
 promises with any one with whom these transactions took place ? — ^A. 
 No, sir; we were situated differently from almost aU the other brokers; 
 you will find that we were not carrying any gold at the time the breaktook 
 H. Eep. 31 7 
 
98 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 place; on the contrary, we were actually " short," for I had sold the day 
 before eight millions of gold. On the morning of the 23d we were car- 
 rying nearly three millions ; but during that day we sold eight millions ; 
 so that we were actually carrying no gold at all for Smith, Gould & Mar- 
 tin on the 24th of September. 
 
 Q. Were your settlements all made in gold's— A. So far as they could 
 be. The final settlement was not made for some days, on account of 
 the bank breaking. 
 
 Q. And you ultimately settled without compromising anything ?— A. 
 Certainly ; we had no occasion to compromise, for we were carrying no 
 gold. 
 
 By Mk. Smith : 
 
 Q. I think you gave the prices of the eight millions you sold on the 
 23d as from 43 to 44, and that the price of gold after the break was 
 about 35 ; then I understand that the difference between these prices, 
 so far as that eight millions was concerned, was all profit for yourself, 
 or your principals ? — A. You do not understand it. When I received 
 the order to sell gold not below 35, 1 really had no gold, for Smith, 
 Gould & Martin were " short." I supposed then that everything had 
 gone through the clearing bank in the ordinary course of business, at 
 half-past twelve. 
 
 By the Ohaieman : 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear that there was a clique in gold at that time; 
 and if so, do you know who composed it ? — A. I do not know who com- 
 posed it, if there was one. I heard a street rumor that there was a 
 clique in gold. 
 
 Q. You have no information upon the subject yourself? — A. K"o, sir; 
 I have none. 
 
 Q. What information led you to suppose there was a clique? — A. 
 Mere current rumor on the street, as I have said ; I did not know any- 
 thing niore positive about it. 
 
 Q. Do you know, or have you any belief, whether Smith, Gould & 
 Martin had anybody else associated with them, or interested with 
 them, in regard to the movement in gold ? — A. I do not know that they 
 had. 
 
 Q. Did you see Jay Gould during the transactions of these two days?— 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see James Fisk, jr., on either of these two days? — A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did youseeE. KWillard during that time? — A. Yes, sir; I think 
 I met him. 
 
 Q. Did you have any communication with him on this subject ? — A. 
 Np, sir. 
 
 Q. Did. you receive any orders from him ?'— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or from William Heath & Co., or any of their firm ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or from William Belden & Co., or any of that firm? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any injunction served upon you in regard to 
 settlement? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever serve any injunction upon any other party in regard 
 to settlement ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it your belief that the extraordinary rise in gold during this 
 time, from about 31 to 60, was caused by any combination of parties 
 to raise the price of gold, or otherwise ? — A. Nothing more than the 
 fact of hearing Mr. Smith say, in my hearing, several times, that gold 
 was going up. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 99 
 
 Q. Is that the only reason, in your mind, why it did go up ? — A. I 
 knew that Smith, Gould & Martin were baying gold ; that was all I 
 knew about it. 
 
 Q. As a broker, you must have an opinion of your own as to the 
 cause. Did you think it was their buying gold alone that was the cause 
 of the rise ? — ^A. I do not know whether there were any other parties 
 connected with Smith, Gould & Martin or not ; I know that they were 
 large buyers and large lenders in the market ; that they were carrying 
 a large amount of gold, and loaning it through several other brokers, as 
 well as myself. 
 
 Q. Did no member of the firm of Smith, Gould & Martin teU you 
 whether they were associated with other parties, and who they were 
 that were joined with them in this movement ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. There was no statement, in your presence, indicating that there 
 were others with them ? — ^A. No, sir, 
 
 Q. Were you ever present at any conversation between any member 
 of the firm of Smith, Gould & Martin, and any other person connected 
 with them in the gold business, during those two days ? — ^A- I had occa- 
 sion to go into B. K. Willard's ofl&ce, at one time, on the 23d, I think ; 
 and I saw Arthur Kimber in there ; and from the conversation that 
 took place, I gained the impression that Kimber was interested with 
 Smith, Gould & Martin in gold. I do not know anything about it, how- 
 ever. • 
 
 Q. When was that ? — A. Some days before the break hx gold. 
 
 Q. Was there any conversation on the subject between them ? — A. 
 Not that I recoUeot. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything of a meeting in Mr. Heath's of&ce on the 
 23d of September ?t-A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Or in Mr. Belden's office on the morning of the 23d 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any meeting that took place at Mr. Belden's ofQce 
 on the evening of the 23d ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or of any that took place in Mr. Smith's office on the morning of 
 the 24th ?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Nor any other except the one you have already mentioned ? — ^A. 
 No, sir. And in regard to that, I merely say that I saw Mr. Kimber in 
 there, and understood that he was in some gold transactions. 
 
 Q. Your impression was that the conversation they were having had 
 reference to this 1 — A. I presumed that he had dealings in gold. I did 
 not hear any conversation at all. 
 
 Q. At any meetings, or elsewhere, during this panic or afterward, 
 did you see Judge Barnard 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or Judge Oardozo 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or any judge of any court in New York?— A. I do not recoUect 
 that I did. 
 
 Q. Did you see the attorneys of Smith, Gould & Co ?— A. I do not 
 know who their attorneys are. 
 
 Q. Did you see David Dudley Field, or Mr. Sherman ? — A. I do not 
 know that I did. I should not know Mr. Field if I did meet him. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of any officer of the United States, 
 in Washington or elsewhere, having been concerned, directly or indi- 
 rectly, in the movement in gold during the month of September last ? — 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with any of the officers in the sub-treasury at 
 New York f — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know them by sight ? — A. No, sir, 
 
 Q. Did you see any persons who were alleged to be officers of the 
 
100 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 government of the United States, who had anything to do with the 
 matter? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What do you think was the cause of the breakdown in gold on the 
 24th of September ? — A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Tou must have some opinion regarding the matter. — A. I heard 
 that the government was selling gold ; that is all I know about it. That 
 was the report I heard on the streets, and that I did not hear until after 
 the break had occurred. 
 
 Q. In looking over the whole field, have you in your own mind a 
 sufftcient explanation of the breakdown in gold ''i Supposing you were 
 writing to a friend the story of that transaction, when you came to 
 speak of the breakdown in gold, what would you tell him was the prob- 
 able cause of it 1 — A. That the government was selling gold. I should 
 think it very natural if the government was selling gold that the break- 
 down should occur in that way. That is aU I know about the matter. 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 19, 1870. 
 Heney K. Enos sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Ohaieman : 
 
 Question. State your residence, your place of business, and occupa- 
 tion. — Answer. My residence is New Yoni ; my place of business is 11 
 Wall street ; I am a broker of the firm of Quinen & Enos. 
 
 Q. Were you in the business of a gold broker in the month of Sep- 
 tember last ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State for what parties you did business as a broker during the 
 22d, 23d, and 24th of Sebteintaer last!— A. Principally for Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Co. 
 
 Q. Did you do business for any others during those days 1 — A. No' 
 business exceeding more than $200,000, and this was for some Balti- 
 more customers. 
 
 Q. State what were your transactions for Smith, Gould, Martin & 
 Co., during those days, and if you had any considerable transactions 
 during the week previous; go back to the beginning. — A. I do not 
 think that that week I bought more than probably at an average a mil- 
 lion a day. 
 
 Q. During two or three weeks previously, had you bought much for 
 them 1! — A. I presume that altogether for two or three weeks previously 
 I bought about $10,000,000 of gold for this firm. 
 
 Q. Did you loan gold also 1 — A. We loaned gold for them. 
 
 Q. Did you sell any 1 — A. I never sold for them ^before Friday, the 
 24th. 1 do not think that I bought on the 23d more than $500,000 for 
 them. 
 
 Q. Did you perform any other business for them on the 23d ? — A. No, 
 sir. I never did any business for them except in gold. I did not do 
 general stock business for them. 
 
 Q. State the orders that you received from them, and what you did 
 in pursuance of those orders. — A. On the 24th I bought about $400,000 
 of gold at 150, by the order of Gould & Fisk jointly. That order did 
 not properly come from Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., as all the previous 
 orders had come from them ; but the gold was reported to the hous^of 
 Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., and they became responsible for it, and the 
 gold was received by them. I received the orders from Gould ; I recog- 
 nized nobody but Gould. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 101 
 
 Q. Why did you connect the names of Pisk and Gould ? — A. Because 
 the two were in the room together: but I recognized no one but Gould. 
 I never did any business for Mr. Msk. 
 
 Q. From the conversation at the time of receiving the order, did you 
 understand that they were in company in the matter, and that the 
 business was really for, them both ? — ^A. I presume I could not help but 
 think that they were jointly interested. 
 
 Q. Did they join in the conversation ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And what was said to you was said as of two gentlemen talking 
 to you ? — A. As of two gentlemen, one saying something now and the 
 other something again. 
 
 Q. And although you held Mr. Gould as the responsible party, you 
 understood that both gentlemen were discussing the business with you ? — 
 A. I presumed that Mr. Fisk could claim an interest in it. I did not 
 recognize him in the transaction at all. 
 
 Q. "What was the amount that you bought? — ^A. I think about 
 $400,000. 
 
 Q. What was the amount of orders to buy for them ? — ^A. I had no 
 limit. 
 
 Q. What was your order ? — A. To put gold to 150. 
 
 Q. Of course you understood that as an order to buy ? — A. As an 
 order to buy. 
 
 Q. What time in the morning did you get this order? — A. I should 
 think about 9J in the morning. 
 
 Q. State that conversation as fully as you can. — A. 1 went in there 
 to see Mr. Smith. I had never had any intercourse with Mr. Gould pre- 
 vious to that, or with Mr. Pisk. I went in looking for Mr. Smith. They 
 asked me what the price of gold was, and I told them. It was probably 
 146 or 147, or something of that sort. Mr, Gould, as I was going out of 
 the door, came up to me and said, " Bnos, go and put gold to 150." 
 As I went out of the door, Mr. Fisk, in a rather gesticulating way, told 
 me to hold it there. Using some rather emphatic expression he told me 
 to hold it there — ^rather in a decisive manner. I cannot tell word for 
 word what the conversation was previous to that. It was in reference 
 to the condition of the market, who was buying and who was selling ; a 
 general conversation relating to the condition of the market. 
 
 Q. State what you did in pursuance of that order A. I went and 
 
 bid gold up to 150. 
 
 Q. Did you bid 150 immediately. — A. There was no gold bid under 
 150, 1 presume. I remember distinctly that I bid for as little as possi- 
 ble, and with a view to hold the market. 
 
 Q. How long ? — A. I do not think above ten minutes. 
 
 Q. Did you report ? — A. I did not report individually. . I simply re- 
 ported to Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., on a shp of paper, and Mr. Smith 
 sent back word that I had no orders from him. All my previous orders 
 had come from him individually. I sent word back that the order was 
 for Mr. Gould. The gold was put down to Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., 
 and they became responsible for it. 
 
 Q. Were you settled with for that transaction? — A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you do anything further in the execution of the general order 
 which they gave you ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Why did you not go on ? — A. I saw others bidding for it and buy- 
 ing more than I cared to buy. I thought I had executed my order in 
 putting it to 150. I think the exact amount I bought was $430,000. 
 
 Q. Did you loan any gold that day ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much ? — A. I should think aibout four millions. 
 
102 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. For these parties ? — ^A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. When did you get instructions from them to loan?— A. About 10 
 o'clock. 
 
 Q. After you had executed the order to buy ?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State what conversation occurred at the time you received orders 
 to loan.— A. When I went back to report to Mr. Gould that I had bought 
 this sum, he asked me, I think, how much it would take to put gold to 
 160. I told him I did not think it would be prudent to talk of puttmg 
 it to 160 until the gold was loaned, as untU it was loaned we could not 
 call for margins. The suggestion was acted upon, and then he gave me 
 orders to go and loan the gold. 
 
 Q. Did he limit you as to the amount you were to loan ? — A. No, sir, 
 I doubt very much whether he knew how much gold we had, or anything 
 about the details of the office business. 
 
 Q. Who do you mean when you say "we"? — A, I mean our firm of 
 Quinen & Bnos. My instructions were simply to loan it and fix up the 
 loans, and then come back. There was nothing said as to rates, or any- 
 thing of that sort, but simply to fix the loans and get up aU the margin 
 we could. 
 
 Q. State any conversation that took place as to the general movement 
 that was being made. — A. I^Tone whatever, except what I have reported. 
 
 Q. State what you did in obedience to the order. — A. I went and 
 loaned the gold, as it is customary to do, at different rates ; some of the 
 rates were quite high ; some, perhaps, J for carrying gold, some i, and 
 some A-, and all sorts of prices. 
 
 Q. To what amount did you loan that day ? — A. About four millions. 
 
 Q. In large or in small lots ? — A. I do not think that any lot was as 
 high as $500,000 ; the majority were smaU lots— $50,000, $100,000, and 
 $200,000. 
 
 Q. From aU your interviews with those parties you had no doubt that 
 Mr. Fisk and Mr. Gould were acting together as one family in the mat- 
 ter ? — A. That was the first time I ever saw them together, or had any 
 reason to suppose that they were together. 
 
 Q. AU these transactions that you did for these parties were set- 
 tled?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 •Q. Eegularly, according to the rules of the board ? — A. They effected 
 some settlements themselves ; I do not know what they were. So far as 
 I was concerned, everything was settled with me. 
 
 Q. E"one of your transactions were repudiated or disputed ? — A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation during those days with William 
 Belden ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or with E. K. WiUard?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or with any other persons who are commonly supposed to belong 
 to the clique ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. State, now, what interviews you had or were present at between 
 any of the parties to whom you have referred, after the panic. — A. I 
 never had any general interviews with them. I went once to see Mr. 
 Fisk and Mr. Gould in reference to making our account good. I went 
 to the opera house. 
 
 Q. Then, you Avere present at a private meeting at the opera house? — 
 A. I do not know that you would call it a private meeting ; there was 
 no one there but Mr. Gould and Mr. FiSk. I went to see Mr. Gould, 
 and I had no conversation with Mr. Fisk. 
 
 Q. State what occurred during that interview. — A. It referred to an 
 overdraft of ours on the Tenth National Bank. The Gold Exchange 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 103 
 
 Bank owed ns about $30,000, and we owed tlte Tenth National Bank 
 about the same amount. I wanted Mr. Gould to guarantee the Tenth 
 National Bank out of the proceeds which would come from the Gold 
 Exchange Bank. 
 
 Q. Why did you need a guarantee 1 — A. I presume that the opera- 
 tions of the Gold Exchange Bank have been explained to you more fuUy 
 than I can explain to you. We gave our checks, and they were put 
 into the Gold Exchange Bank until 1 o'clock, when we must make our 
 account good. That day the Gold Exchange Bank failed to make 
 returns, and we had overdrawn our account in the Tenth National Bank 
 about $30,000. It all pertained to the business of Smith, Gould, Martin 
 & Co., and therefore we wanted them offtcially or legally to recognize 
 the transaction, which they did afterward. That was the business on 
 which I made the caU at the opera house. 
 
 Q. State what conversation was had there concerning the gold 
 panic. — A. I do not recollect that any occurred ; Mr. Gould was ia one 
 room and Mr. Fisk in another room. . I saw them both, but I did not 
 have conversation with them both. 
 
 Q. What did they say to you with reference to guaranteeing your 
 overdrafts — A. Mr. Gould said that he would see Mr. Fisk — that he did 
 not know anything about the details of the ofi&ce business. I did not at 
 that time effect a settlement. 
 
 Q. When did you ? — ^A. We got orders to deliver our gold at the time 
 the injunction was served restraining brokers from receiving any gold. 
 At that time Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. owed us about $130,000. 
 When they paid us that and when we got our money from the Gold Ex- 
 change Bank we paid the Tenth National Bank. 
 
 By Mr. Cobuen : 
 Q. For what was that $130,000 due to you ? — ^A. For differences in 
 gold and for interest and commissions. Our commissions were about 
 $10,000, and the balance we owed in the street. 
 
 By the Chaikman : 
 
 Q. When you loaned the gold did you report the persons to whom you 
 loanedit in every case? — A. Always; in every case. Prom the begin- 
 ning of the transactions I reported each day every loan made and the 
 rates at which made. 
 
 Q. Was any restriction laid upon you with reference to the persons 
 with whom you should deal ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. At what place and time, as far as you know, was this pool in gold 
 formed 1 — A. I have no idea. I have no knowledge of any pool. 
 
 Q. Have you stated recently that the pool was originally formed in 
 your office ? — A. I believe that the first transactions were made by us ; 
 at least we commenced buying gold in the latter part of July or the first 
 of August, and continued to buy to the end. 
 
 Q. What did you mean by stating that the pool began in your 
 of&ce ? — A. I made no such statement, for I had no knowledge of any 
 pool. 
 
 Q. You allude now to the fact that you were probably the first to 
 make purchases of gold? — A. That we began to buy gold. 
 
 Q. Was any explanation made to you, when you began those purchases, 
 what was to be the course of things ? — A. None at all: I simply obtained 
 my orders. I never had a general interview with them, and never received 
 any written order from them. 
 
 Q. To your knowledge, was~ any officer of the government of the TJni- 
 
104 gold' PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 ted States, either in Washington, New York, or elsewhere, connected, 
 directly or indirectly, with this so-called gold pool or gold movement?— 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with any officers of the United States?— A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see any officer of the United States during those days, or 
 any one who is said to he an officer of the United States, who seemed to 
 be' taking any partjn the transactions ?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any person who acts as broker for any officer of 
 the United States ?— A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. I understand you to say that your account in the Tenth National 
 Bank was overdrawn ?— A. Yes ; about $30,000. We had kept our de- 
 posits there for a year previously. 
 
 Q. Did they allow you to overdraw without a certified check ?— A. 
 We generally gave them a certified check. 
 
 By Mr. Packer : 
 Q. If you drew against a certified check they would not call that an 
 overdraft 1 — A. I do not suppose they would ; this amount overdrawn 
 was in excess of certified checks. 
 
 By Mr. BuRCHAED : 
 
 Q. You mean that you had drawn out on your checks more money 
 than you had there "? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were the checks on which those overdrafts were made certified?— 
 A. That I cannnot say, because I did not keep the bank account, and 
 did not attend to any of the details of the office business. We gave 
 the checks, and they might be certified or not, according as the parties 
 required. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 Q. What is the condition of that overdraft ? Has it been adjusted ? — 
 A. It has been all settled. 
 
 By Mr. Packer : 
 
 Q. How much was the first order you received for purchase of gold, 
 from Smith, Gould, Martin, & Co. ? — A. I think about a million dollars. . 
 
 Q. What was done with the gold when you purchased it ? — A. We 
 kept it and loaned it for their account. 
 
 Q. Immediately? — A. The next day. 
 
 Q. When they gave you that order, was anything said as to what 
 they desired to have done with the gold ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there no purpose stated ? — A. No, sir. I never had any con- 
 versation with them in reference to their projects in gold, their plans or 
 their purposes. 
 
 Q. Except on one occasion, when you advised them not to put it up 
 higher than 150 witjiout loaning the surplus ? — A, Yes, if that can be 
 called such. 
 
 By Mr. OoBURN : 
 Q. Have you stated how much gold you bought for all of them from 
 the beginning of the transactions in July up to the end ?— A. (Eeferriug 
 to the book of purchases and sales.) The first purchase that I find was 
 in August. We bought, on August 12th, $375,000; August 30th, 
 $260,000; September 1st, $625,000, at 133^; September 2d, $1,100,000, 
 at 133f ; September 3d, $25,000, at 135§ ; September 4th, $20,000, at 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 105 
 
 136|; September 9th, $500,000, at 135|; September 15th, $800,000, at 
 136; September 16th, $1,000,000, at 136^; September 20th, $400,000, 
 at 136f ; September 22d, $1,100,000, at 137J, 139J, 140J, 141J; Septem- 
 ber 24th, $370,250, at 150. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Did you have any transactions with E. K. Willard during any of 
 those days ?— A. I think I bought $100,000 from him. 
 
 Q. Did you see him during the days of the panic 1 — A. Tes. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with him in reference to the 
 panic? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What relations did Mr, Willard sustain to the gold clique, as you 
 understood? — ^A. I do not know of any other than that he was one of 
 their brokers. I know nothing beyond that. He seemed to be a con- 
 spicuous broker — one of their principal ones. 
 
 Q. To what cause do you attribute the rapid rise of gold in that 
 week? — A. That I cannot teU. 
 
 Q. Tou must have an opinion on that subject. State what your 
 opinion is. — A. I should think that it was owing to large purchases 
 more than anything else. 
 
 Q. Do you think it was owing to any preconcerted purpose on the 
 part of some brokers in E^ew York to cause it ? — A. I did not see any 
 evidence of it before the day in which the movement culminated. 
 
 Q. Did you see Judge Barnard at any time near the transactions of 
 which you have spoken ? — ^A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Do you know him personally? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know Judge Cardozo ?. — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge concerning an injunction on the bro- 
 kers ? — A. None beyond what was served on us. 
 
 Q. What injunction, if any, was served on you ? — A. Eestraining us 
 from receiving any gold bought on account of Smith, Gould, Martin 
 ,&Co. 
 
 Q. What judge granted that injunction? — ^A. I do not recollect. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see the complaint that accompanied it ? — A. No, sir. 
 It was restraining us from receiving any gold bought or loaned on ac- 
 count of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. 
 
 Q. Was that injunction dissolved ? — A. I do not know that there was 
 any formal dissolution of it. It dissolved itself with us. 
 
 Q. At whose suit was that injunction served on you ? — A. I do not 
 recollect. I believe it was in the interest of Smith, Gould, Martin & 
 Co. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of any consultation preliminary to get- 
 ting that injunction, in Which the question of getting the injunction 
 was discussed ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you never hear any such conversation at the opera house ? — 
 A. Not until after the thing was consummated. I was asked once to get 
 out an injunction on the Gold Exchange Bank. 
 
 Q. Who asked you to do that ? — ^A. I think it was> Mr. J. A. Lane. 
 
 Q. On what ground ? — A. That the bank did not pay its balances. 
 1 Q. Did you get out such an injunction? — A. No, sir. I got out 
 another injunction, on the gold-room itself, restraining them from selling 
 out gold on anybody's account. 
 
 Q. Before what court did you get that injunction ? — ^A. I do not recol- 
 lect. 
 
 Q. Who was your attorney? — A. Field and Sherman. 
 
 Q. Was that injunction got out ? — A. Tes, sir. 
 
106 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. What complaint did you make on which it was based?— A. That, 
 owing to the large transactions made on that day, and the confused 
 condition which the Gold Exchange Bank was in, and as all the trans- 
 actions had to be settled through the Gold Exchange Bank, no trans- 
 action should be closed arbitrarily by the rule of the board until the 
 Gold Exchange Bank was in operation. 
 
 Q. Who advised yon to sue out that injunction ?— A. I think the in- 
 junction was got out in the interest of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co.; I 
 think they asked me to get it out. 
 
 Q. Atwhattimedid theyaskyoutogetitoutl— A. I have forgotten; 
 probably a week or ten days after the panic. 
 
 Q. Did they assume the expense of getting out the injunction ?-^A. 
 They did, so far as I know ; I never paid any attorney's fees for it. 
 
 Q. How many snch injunctions did you get out ? — A, But the one. 
 In this case I acted simply as their brokers. 
 
 Q. Did you give them up as your principals, or did you settle in your 
 own name for your transactions in the purchase or loaning of gold ?— 
 A. We did it all in our name, and settled all in our name, till the day 
 after the panic, when I gave up the principals. 
 
 Q. You gave up Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. as your principals 1— 
 A. Yes, after the day of the panic ; not previously. 
 
 Q. Did you give up any other persons as principals ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen the injunction which you served on the Gold 
 Board?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. By what judge was it granted ? — ^A. I do not recollect now. It 
 was done entirely at the instance of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., and 
 I did not take particular notice what judge it was before. I had a large 
 interest in it myself at the time. 
 
 Q. When Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. advised you to get out an 
 injunctioii, what reasons did they give other than those you have men- 
 tioned? — A. None. 
 
 Q. Did they say anything about other parties getting out injunc* 
 tions ? — A. At first I refused, and they said that other brokers had done 
 the same thing for their protection. 
 
 Q. Did you receive any consideration from them for getting out the 
 injunction ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Directly or indirectly ? — A. Neither directly or indirectly. 
 
 Q. Did you see Field and Shearman 1 — A. I saw Mr. Shearman. 
 
 Q.What occurred between you and him in reference to the gold 
 panic ? — A. Nothing at all. 
 
 Q. What did you say to him ? — A. I simply read the complaint and 
 signed it. 
 
 Q. Who wrote the complaint ? — A. That I do not know. I understood 
 that he did it. 
 
 Q. He presented the complaint to you for you to sign it ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. I gave him the grounds of the complaint and he wrote it out. 
 
 Q. In your presence ? — A. No, sir ; it came from that office. I do not 
 know whether he wrote it individually himself. I gave him the grounds 
 of the complaint, and it was written out, and I signed it. 
 
 Q. Then you had two interviews with him ? — A. Yes, sir ; the first 
 was some time in the morning, and the other one in the afternoon. 
 There was, probably, some two or three hours between them. 
 
 Q. At the opera house ? — A. No, sir ; at our office. 
 
 Q. Had you any transactions during those days with Heath & Co.?— 
 A. No, sir, except that one of our purchases of ten or twenty thousand 
 dollars of gold was from Heath & Co. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 107 
 
 Q. Had you any conversation with any one of that firm concerning 
 the panic ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or with WUliam Belden during any of those days concerning the 
 panic'? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see Mr. Field in the course of the injunction business ? — 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How long was it after you signed, the complaint before the injunc- 
 tion was issued ■? — ^A. I think the next day. It may have been the same 
 day. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the judge who granted it was sitting in 
 open court or in chambers ? — ^A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Have you no memoranda from which you can ascertain by what 
 judge it was. granted, or in what court ^^-A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What other brokers, known to you, got out injunctions for those 
 parties f — A. None that I know of positively. I know by common 
 report. 
 
 Q. Did you feel any necessity for the transaction of your own busi- 
 ness to get out that injunction ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Why, then, did you first refuse? — A. Because I thought they 
 would take the responsibility themselves ; and as they did not, I thought 
 I was justified, under the circumstances, in doing it. 
 
 Q. Tou had already given up Smith, Gould, Martin & Go. as your 
 principals ; did the persons with whom you had transacted the business 
 accept the surrender ? — A. No, sir ; they held us both. 
 
 Q. Why not ? — A. Because Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. had failed, 
 and we had not, and they thought they had better hold two than one. 
 We had three millions to be delivered. Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. 
 could not protect us, and we stood in the gap for whatever gold we had. 
 We had sold gold at 134 and 135, and it was then down to 130. 
 
 By Mr. Cobtibn : 
 . Q. Did you employ a lawyer in the suit in which you were served 
 with an injunction ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you pay any attention to that suit at all 1 — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What was the reason ? — ^A. I simply obeyed the injunction not to 
 receive the gold. I paid attention to that and nothing else. 
 
 Q. You did not employ a lawyer to defend the suit ? — ^A. No, sir; there 
 was no suit. 
 
 By the Ohaieman : 
 
 Q. Did you get the injunction dissolved ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Why not? — A. We did not see the necessity of it. AU of our 
 business, except $200,000 or $300,000 in gold, was for Smith, Gould, 
 Martin & Co. 
 
 Q, And as you had given them up, you did not care so much for it 
 personally ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Paokee : 
 
 Q. Were Field & Sherman the attorneys for Smith, Gould, Martin 
 &Co.?— A. I do not know. ^ 
 
 Q. Did not Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. direct you to go to Field & 
 Sherman 1 — A. No, sir ; 1 think I first saw Mr. Sherman ia the ofBce 
 of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. 
 
 Q. Were you consulted by Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. in reference 
 bo the iajunction which they had issued against you before it was served 
 on you? — ^A. No, sir'; I knew nothing about it until it was served 
 upon me. 
 
108 gold' panic investigation. 
 
 By the Ohaieiiian : 
 
 Q. How came you to go to Mr. Sherman ?— A. I believe I saw him 
 first in the ofQce of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. 
 
 Q. Did you understand that he was their attorney ?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then you made him your own attorney?— A. I really did not know 
 whether I was to pay the expense or not. I was acting at the request 
 of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co.,^s their broker. 
 
 Washington, January 20, 1870. 
 Samxjel W. Boocock sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Please state your residence, occupation, and place of busi- 
 ness? — ^Answer. I reside in the city of Brooklyn; I do business in New 
 York City as a broker; I am a member of the firm of Dornin & Boo- 
 cock. 
 
 Q. What kind of brokerage? — A. Stock and gold, both. 
 
 Q. Have you been in the habit of doing business for the firm of Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Co., William Belden & Co., James Fisk, jr., or others 
 connected with them?*— A. Unfortunately I have done business for Wil- 
 liam Belden & Co. 
 
 Q. Did you in September last buy gold for any of these parties; and, 
 if so, specify the amount bought and the dates of purchase? — A. I do 
 not think it would be possible for me to give the exact dates, but I will 
 do so as nearly as I can. I bought, in the early part of September, for 
 Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., $750,000. Instead of purchasing fpr them 
 again, I loaned a million, which was purchased by another broker. It 
 was a loan by our house, and was considered equivalent to a purchase; 
 that is, we carried it for this firm. I think these are all the transactions 
 I had with Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. On the 23d of September I 
 bought for William Belden & Co., as nearly as I can remember, 
 $1,260,000 of gold, I think, at, between 43 J and 43^; and loaned 
 $2,000,000 at about 43. So far as I can remember, these are about all 
 the purchases I made for that house. 
 
 Q. Who gave you orders for those transactions ? — A. The order for 
 Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. was given me by E. K. Willard ; the order 
 for William Belden & Co. was given me by William Belden in person. 
 
 Q. Is E. K. Willard a member of the firm of Smith, Gould, Martin & 
 Co. ? — A. ISTot to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. How, then, came he to give the order for that firm? — A. I should 
 say he gave it as agent in their employ; I should judge this from the 
 fact that he gave me orders to loan a million, and report the loan to Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Co. 
 
 Q. What instructions, if any, did he give you in connection with 
 these orders? — A. Nothing more than to make the loan, and report to 
 them, and to agree upon the rate of commission. I think that was all 
 the conversation that occurred. 
 
 Q. What limits did he fix as your rates for lending? — A. He did not 
 fix any. 
 
 Q. bid you carry out your orders for Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., 
 according to the terms in which they were received ? — A. I did. 
 
 Q. And reported your loans to Smith, Gould, Martin & Co.?— A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
GOLB PANIC INVESTIGATION. ■ 109 
 
 Q. Did they receive your report and acknowledge the validity of the 
 order? — A. They did. 
 
 Q. WhatordersdidMr. Beldengive?— 'A. He gave me an order to loan 
 any part of five millions. Our business was generally a stock business; 
 we were more in stocks than we were in gold. In fact, we only carried 
 this amount of gold for Belden one day before he failed. Not wishing 
 to carry so large an amount, I said to him that I would loan for him 
 two millions, if we could agree upon the terms. I stated the terms, and 
 he accepted them; but he has never fulfilled them. He told me to loan 
 at the market rates; and to satisfy me as to his responsibility for com- 
 plying with the terms, he told me that he had plenty of money in his 
 possession, and that I would be amply protected; he would mark it 
 down as low as we wished; but he failed to do it. I presume your 
 honorable committee would like to ascertain more particularly who Mr. 
 Belden was doing business for. I made a general statement before the 
 arbitration committee of the New York Gold Exchange, of which Mr. 
 Hodgskin was chairman; which statement, as I am told, is before your 
 committee. That would give you very clearly the whole transaction, 
 because I gave in it the conversation which ensued at that time betnr6en 
 Mr. Belden and myself, as to whom he was doing business for. 
 
 (The statement was here shown to the witness.) 
 
 Q. You are famUiar with this statement? — A. 1 never read it. I 
 think Mr. Bonner, who was acting as secretary of the arbitration com- 
 mittee that day, wrote it down as I gave it. 
 
 (The following statement was then read in the hearing of the wit 
 ness) : 
 
 SAMDEL BOOCOCK. — BVIDBNCB BBFOEE THE AEBITEATION COMMITTEE. 
 
 . Was doing brokers' business on the 23d and 24th, under the firm name of Bornin & 
 Boocock. Loaned and bought gold for Belden on the 23d. The first transaction -was on 
 the 21st. When I bought $100,000 gold for him I gave him np. On Wednesday eTeniug,' 
 22d, Belden asked me if I wanted to do business for him. "According to what it is," 
 was my answer. He said : " Loan a lot of gold for mo in the morning — any part of five 
 millions. See me in the morning." I asked him if he was in a strong position. He 
 said : " Phsaw ! There is only $18,000,000 of cash gold in the market and we have taken 
 up half and paid for it, and we intend to take up the other half." I inquired, " Who do 
 you mean by w&— Smith, Gould, Martin, & Co. ? " He answered, " Who else do you 
 suppose I mean ? " I said : " Then you are both buying for the same parties." He an- 
 swed : " Certainly ; its all one thing." I saw him on the following morning, when he 
 said : " If you don't want to lend five millions, lend two or three." I answered : " If 
 there is a fall in the market of ten per cent., are you so situated that we would be 
 well protected?" He answered: "Certainly." On Thursday, the 23d, when we had 
 loaned his gold, I found he had delivered us the gold at a high price. I remonstrated 
 with him. He said: "Go into the gold-room and buy all the gold you can get from 
 143J to 144." I bought $1,260,000, and I was frightened at the way they sold me the 
 gold, at i per cent, below Speyer's bid. I reported to Belden and said : " I would 
 rather buy no more. I will give you up on it." He said : "AU right ; " and turning 
 to one of the boys, said : " Go over to Heath's office and tell Fisk to send in some other 
 brokers ; they are spotting ours." 
 
 Belden gave me to understand that he was doing business for Fisk and Gould. I was 
 at Belden's office at 9 a. m. on the 24th. He had told me on the previous evening that 
 
 fold would sell at 200. In the morning ho reminded me of this and said : " What 
 id I tell you? Gold is selling at 150." Tasked him to mark down my gold. He said 
 he would mark it down as low as I wanted, and told me to call upon the parties to whom 
 I loaned twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty per cent, in the Trust Company. He then desired 
 me to lend five millions instead of two millions — all I could. I said I could loan no 
 more than I had already. I met Messrs. Gould, Fisk, Smith, and Spoyers, at Belden's ■ 
 office on Wednesday, between 1 and 2 o'clock p. m. 
 
 When I began to buy gold for Belden he told me he was buying for Fisk and Gould. 
 He said repeatedly that they were his principals. He said he (Fisk) had intended to 
 make hiij (Belden's) house the largest in Wall street. I saw Fisk and Gould there more 
 than once, and thus believed they were his principals. His offer to put large amounts in 
 
110 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 the company strengthened this belief. After the failure, Belden said that he had never 
 
 I saw Gould at the Erie Railway office after the failure. I asked " Why he had taken 
 -ire of Fisk's gold with Heath (three millions) and left me unprotected?" He said: 
 " That was the only gold of Fisk's I did take care of, and he (Heath) had money of 
 ours which I wanted to get possession of." 
 
 I saw Smith, of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., on Friday, and told him I held him for 
 aU Belden's gold. I held him on the ground that Belden had told me it was all one 
 thing. 
 
 Mr. Newcome, a customer of Belden's, told me that on the 24th Belden told him that 
 this was his last day in Wall street. 
 
 Witness continues : That statement is generally correct, but not as 
 full as it might be in one or two points. I asked Mr. Belden who were 
 the parties concerned. This was in conversation, before I had done any 
 business for Mr. Belden. From what he said in regard to persons in 
 high position I did not think he referred to officers in our own goverur 
 ment, but to politicians in high position in New York. His remark 
 was: I would be surprised to know what parties were in it; that there 
 were in it persons in high position. He gave me no impression as to 
 who the parties were; in fact, he was very- reticent in his conversation. 
 He had told me that Fisk was his principal. 
 
 Q. What was the total amount of your transactions for those two 
 firms ? — A. Leaving out the $750,000 which they received themselves, 
 it would be nearly four millions bought and loaned for these parties. 
 
 Q. Did you require or give any margins, in any way, in the course of 
 these transactions'? — A. I did not. I took this gold from Mr. Belden at 
 about 41 to 43. Gold suddenly went up to 60. The houses to which I 
 loaned the gold were all of them excellent houses, and I did not deem 
 it necessary to call for margins. 
 
 Q. Was it usual for you to call for margins ? — ^A. Yes ; but gold went 
 up so suddenly, and then within three-quarters of an hour went back 
 again, that, the fact is, we did not give that matter a thought; because 
 our loans were so heavy on that day that our entire time was occupied 
 in getting our statements ready, and we had no time to call upon those 
 houses, if we had thought of it and had desired to do so. Mr. Bel- 
 den has never protected me in this gold which I loaned and bought for 
 him. Three millions or more have been thrown back upon our house. 
 
 Q. When did they repudiate these obligations? — A. On the 24th, 
 when gold commenced falling rapidly, becoming alarmed and anxious, 
 I went to Mr. Belden's ofiice, but he had gone away. I was told that 
 he would probably return about half-past two ; but at half-past two I 
 found that he had run away with Fisk and Gould. My authority for 
 that is Mr. Stimson, who told me that he saw him with Fisk and Gould 
 going down Wall street. After that he remained locked and barred up, 
 so that it was impossible to get at him for some time, although I tried 
 repeatedly to do so. 
 
 Q, How longbefore yousucceeded ingettingan interview with him?— 
 A. I think I saw him once, at the Gold Exchange Bank, one night 
 about twelve o'clock, but simply to speak to him. He said to me: "You 
 will be protected !" The Gold Exchange Bank had brought him, with 
 others, there, to see if anything could be done to straighten out its own 
 affairs. The first time I saw him to have any conversation with him was 
 some two weeks afterward, and then the conversation was the most un- 
 satisfactory I ever had. He denied everything ; denied that he ever told 
 me Fisk and Gould were his principals. I think he went before the 
 grand jury and stated that all the gold he bought on those days he 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. Ill 
 
 ■bought for his own account, and that if five millions had been made out 
 of the transactions he would have made it entirely himself. 
 
 Q. Did he refuse absolutely to protect you? — A. Yes, sir; he said he 
 had no money. 
 
 Q. He acknowledged the order which he gave you ? — ^A. O yes ; he 
 acknowledged the order, but refused to make me good, on the ground 
 that he had no money. 
 
 Q. State to the committee as fully as you can what grounds you have 
 for believing that Fisk and Gould were Belden's principals 1 — A. Well, 
 he had a telegraph wire running from his offiee to the office of the Erie 
 Eailroad building that day and for some days before. And he not only 
 at that time, but at a good many other times, told me that Fisk was in- 
 terested in him ; that he had placed his brother-in-law, a man by the 
 name of Hooker, in partnership with him ; and many times he told me 
 that Fisk was doing a great amount of business with his house. And 
 that momiag I stated distinctly to him, before I loaned him the gold, 
 that I must understand whether he would mark it down to me. He 
 said he certainly would. I said to him : " Suppose gold suddenly falls 
 ten per cent., have you money enough to protect us V His reply was 
 that nearly all his gold averaged 30 and below, and that we should 
 run no risk. He further said : " When you loan, call your men up thirty, 
 forty, or fifty per cent, in the Trust Company." I had not absolute con- 
 fidence in his statements at that time, but believing from what he said 
 that he had money, I took the risk of carrying that gold for two or three 
 days, and for the purpose of making the liberal commissions which 
 were agreed upon. 
 
 Q. You say this gold was thrown back upon you and repudiated by 
 the parties for whom you were loaning it. Have you yet made your 
 own settlements ? — A. We are making them as rapidly as possible. 
 
 Q. Did you have any injunction served upon you 1 — ^A. 'No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were any injunctions served at your instance on others ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Upon whom? — A. Upon Cammack & Osborn, restraining them 
 from paying any money over to the firm of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., 
 or to B. K. Willard, or their agents. 
 
 Q. And did that protect OsbOrn & Cammack, whom you supposed 
 were doing business for these agents? — A. 1, myself, had purchased 
 gold for them at 43J, and our loss on the purchase would have been 
 fifty or sixty thousand dollars at least. I immediately sued out an in- 
 junction and placed it upon Osborn & Cammack, who directly signed a 
 paper relieving me of that purchase. 
 
 Q. Were you recommended to get out this injunction; was it by 
 your direction ? — A. No, sir. It was of my own motion ; but after con- 
 sulting my attorney, Mr. C. T. Jenks, he indorsed what I had done fully. 
 
 Q. Was the injunction granted ? — A. It was. 
 
 Q. By what judge ? — A. By Judge Gilbert, of Brooklyn. 
 
 Q. Is that injunction still standing ?— A. No, sir. It was dissolved 
 by settlement. Osborn & Cammack agreed to sign off, releasing me, if 
 I raised the injunction. My impression is that Mr. Osborn had been 
 selling gold and had probably sold more than this amount, so that he 
 could release me without difficulty from the third party who signed the" 
 release. I finally concluded this had no relation to Smith, Gould, Mar- 
 tin & Co. 
 
 Q. Did you understand that he was doing business for Smith, Gould 
 & Martin f — A. I thought he was. 
 
 Q. Did you get out an injunction against anybody else? — A. Yes; I 
 got out an injunction against Gray, Prince & Co. 
 
112 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATIOK. 
 
 Q. For a similar purpose 1 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In what way were your settlements with Smith, Gould & Martin 
 effected 1—A. I had a million of gold. I had loaned $600,000, and I 
 sold $400,000, just the balance of the million. The transaction would 
 leave a balance in my favor of something like $10,000, which they paid. 
 None of the brokers who were doing business for them were permitted 
 to suffer in any way. 
 
 Q. Then in your transactions with the firm you lost nothing?— A, 
 Nothing. 
 
 Q. Did you lose anything from the operations of the Gold Exchange 
 Bank ! — A. Yes, sir. We have a suit against them for $31,000, which 
 occurred by their having delivered gold to the extent of $235,000 to 
 the firm of Livermore & Co. They claimed that they never delivered 
 the gold ; whereas Livermore & Go. had received the gold, and, as we 
 delivered none, of course the bank delivered it. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Osborn in any way connected with the $31,000 ?— A. No, 
 sir ; no one but ourselves. Mr. Osborn's relations with our house have 
 all been settled satisfactorily. 
 
 Q. State to the committee, from your knowledge of the whole transac- 
 tion, what persons you understand to compose the gold clique ? — ^A. I 
 have always believed it was composed of Fisk, Gould, and Others ; and 
 who the others were I am unable to say. 
 
 Q. What do you think about Belden & Co. and Willard ? — A. I think 
 that Willard did not do anything for his own account. 1 think he was 
 merely an agent for others. I do not think Belden did anything for Ms 
 own account beyond half a million dollars or so. He has always struck 
 me as a very timid man who was easily frightened. I, for that reason, 
 did not think that he was making the transactions on his own account. 
 I think he bought for Fisk and others, and that since these transactions, 
 for the sake of pay, he turns around and shelters them by declaring 
 that all this gold was bought for himself. I believe that if Belden gets 
 before this committee he will state that he bought this gold for himself, 
 and he will state a wicked falsehood. He seems to be thoroughly under 
 the influence of this man Fisk. ' 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of yotir own that any officer of the 
 government of the United States had anything to do, directly or indi- 
 rectly, with this gold clique ; if so, give his name, and state what you 
 know in regard to it. — A. My memory is not clear enough to state any- 
 thing without danger of doing great injustice, and it would be no more 
 than hearsay anyhow. 
 
 Q. Do you know by sight any officers of the United States whom you 
 saw have anvthing to do, apparently or really, with this movement in 
 gold ?— A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Did any of the parties that you have transactions or business with 
 make any statement to you that any government officer had any connec- 
 tion with this movement ; if so, who made the statement, and what was 
 the statement when made ? — A. No statement of that kind has ever been 
 made to me. 
 
 Washington, D. C., January 20, 1870. 
 Chas. J. OSBOEN sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Question. State your residence, place of business, and occupation.— 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 113 
 
 Answer. I reside on West Thirty-second street, New York; my business 
 office is 34 Broad street; I am a banker and broker. 
 
 Q. What was the general run of your business during the season prior 
 to September last ? — ^A. Almost entirely gold. I had very little in stocks. 
 
 Q. Were you dealing in gold during the month of September ? — A. 
 Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. For what parties mainly did you deal during the early part of that 
 month down to the morning of the 23d ? — A. For A. B. Stockwell & Co., 
 James Groesbeck, E. K. Willard, Henry Hart, and others occasionally, 
 whose names I do not now recall, 
 
 Q. Are you aware of an extraordinary rise in gold during the month 
 of September ? — A. I am. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion of the cause of that rise in gold ? — ^A. It was the 
 enormous speculations, engendered by the way in which business has been, 
 done there, through the medium of clearing-houses; irresponsible parties 
 being enabled to do enormous amounts of business without any capital ; 
 so that designing men, whoever they may be or whatever their reputa- 
 tion, are enabled to bring about changes in the gold market to accom- 
 pUsh their purposes. If a man has a thousand dollars he can go and 
 buy five millions of gold, if he feels inclined, and transact his business 
 through the medium of this clearing-house. To tell you the truth, that, 
 in my judgment, has been the main-spring of all the troubles there have 
 been in the gold market since it has been in existence. 
 
 Q. Who, so far as you know, belonged to that class of designing men 
 who have organized and, developed the gold ring or clique? — A. I think 
 Fisk was the main man in the whole thing, so far as illegitimate pro- 
 ceedings were concerned. 
 
 Q. What persons do you understand were associated with him? — ^A., 
 Belden & Co., William Heath & Co., and Albert Speyers, I think he- 
 made his headquarters around their offices. I do not know that he did: 
 in the office of Speyers, but Speyers was used by him, and the mischief 
 was practically done mostly through these parties. 
 
 Q. Did you know any other firms concerned in this general movement 
 of gold ? — A. Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. wont very heavilj' into it.. 
 They employed E. K. Willard, as I suppose. At any rate, he gave out. 
 large orders, and most of the business that I did was for him. 
 
 Q. Please give the committee a statement of your purchases and. 
 sales or loans of gold made for any of those parties you have named, 
 during the week beginning with the Monday before the break ? — A. I 
 had on hand, I think,^from three to four millions of gold for E. K. Wil- 
 lard, who was my man of business at that time. I did not actually go. 
 into the market and buy it. They sent it in to me and put up margins 
 for it, and I carried it for them. I think two hundred and twenty 
 thousand was the extent of my purchase. They made me their lugger,. 
 so to speak ; I just carried it for them. After returning from a trip to 
 the White Mountains, the first day after my arrival inlifew York, in the 
 neighborhood of the 16th of September, Mr. Willard asked me if i 
 would be able to carry half a million dollars of gold on the market. I 
 told him I most certainly was able to carry that much gold. It was 
 only a question as to whether I should assume something I did not want, 
 and prevent me doing something I did want to do. But I said that if he 
 would put up the money I would carry the gold for them for a liberal 
 commission. He soon brought me in half a million of gold, which I 
 paid tor ahd used in the course of my business. A day or two after- 
 ward he asked me if I would loan some gold for him. I did loan for 
 him a million and a quarter, assuming the contracts myself. This he 
 H. Eep. 31 8 
 
114 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 margined down to me at 30, and whenever afterward I loaned gold for 
 him he margined it down to 30. The gold I was carrying on the market 
 he margined down to 25. All the balance of my gold was taken in that 
 way. Whenever I received gold to loan, he sent in a check- to make it 
 down to 30. 
 
 Q. Up to the 23d, how much had you done for him during the week 
 previous ? — A. Between four and five millions, or in that neighhorhood. 
 
 Q. On the 23d, did you transact any business for Mr. Willard?— A. 
 the two hundred and twenty thousand I have mentioned was the only 
 gold I bought for him in the whole transaction. This was on the 24tl^. 
 I bought it at 50. On the 23d, I kept this gold on hand in the market, 
 
 Q. Did you have any orders from. Mr. Willard on the 23d?— A. I had 
 an order from him, but I did not fill it. Gold went from 36 to 38 up to 
 .43 or 44, and had gone up so much when I received his orders that I 
 did not fill them. 
 
 Q. Did you receive orders from him on the 24th? — A. Mr. "Willard was 
 an intimate friend of mine ; I always told him I should protect myself; 
 that whenever it looked as if things were going to destruction, I should 
 protect myself under any circumstances. Said he, if gold breaks 42, 
 turn in and sell out. In the meantime he told me to sell all the gold I 
 could at 50. 
 
 Q. Did you sell out the gold you were carrying ?^A. I did. 
 
 Q. How much gold did he give you orders to sell ? — A. To sell aU I 
 had ; and I did. 
 
 Q. At what figures ?— A, At from 50 to 32^. What I sold and which 
 went out was in the neighborhood of five millions. What I sold and 
 did not go out was in the neighborhood of three or four millions. 
 
 Q. Why did not this go out? — A. Because the parties were irresponsi- 
 ble. I sold, fpr instance, a million to Speyers, and a million to Ward 
 & Co. , 
 
 Q. To whom did you sell the five millions? — A. In promiscuous lots; 
 there were three or four batches of it. 
 
 Q. Did you sell, during these days, for anybody else but Mr. Wil- 
 lard ? — A. Yes, I sold flye hundred thousand for Henry Hard, and for 
 others, merchants and others, for whom we had discretionary orders to 
 sell. 
 
 Q. For whom did you understand Mr. WiUard was acting ? — A. My 
 supposition was that he was acting for Smith, Gould & Martin. 
 
 Q. What led you to that supposition? — A. Seeing them together a 
 great deal, and seeing the magnitude of the business transacted, which I 
 thought nobody else was able to do. My impressioh always has been that 
 Jay Gould was the partner of that firm principally concerned in these 
 transactions. 
 
 Q. What has given you that impression 1 — A. Because Mr. Smith has 
 always assured me that he was not a speculator ; had no interest in gold ; 
 and knowing Mr. Gould pretty well, besides knowing what I did of him 
 by hearsay, this whole affair struck me just like being one of his move- 
 ments. 
 
 Q. In your interviews with Mr. Willard or other parties connected with 
 the handling of gold during those days, what did Mr. Willard say in 
 conversation concerning these matters ? — A. I was very nervous, and 
 rather desirous to keep out ; I did not like so much desperation. Wil- 
 lard said, " You need not worry yourself; my parties can see gold to par." 
 I saw Mm but very little, except in hard business transactions. I made 
 myself safe, and I had no reason to ask whys or wherefores. I may have 
 had some suppositions. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATIOIT. 115 
 
 Q. What did he ever say touching this movement; did he make no 
 remark in regard to what was being done, or what would be done, with 
 gold? — A. IlTo, sir; he always kept me in the dark about that. I always 
 supposed it was a close corner. I was very much surprised to see gold 
 go up to 60. 
 
 Q. In whose presence did you have your consultations with Mr. Wil- 
 lard ? — A. They were always in my back office, and with nobody present 
 but my partner. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see him in his office ? — ^A. I may have gone into his 
 office to report gold. I never went into his back office at all. 
 
 Q. Did you see any of the firm of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. during 
 any of those days ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you converse with them in regard to this movement ? — A. Ko, 
 sir ; I never spoke to Jay Gould until the morning of the 24th ; and I 
 never spoke to James Pisk, so far as I know, but once in my life. 
 
 Q. Did you hear any of those parties say anything about gold move- 
 ments during any of those days ? — A. No, sir ; not at all. 
 
 Q, Did you see Belden during those days ? — ^A. I was introduced to 
 him in the gold-room, when gold was about 38 ; but 1 never had any- 
 thing to do with him or his party. They were men I had a perfect de- 
 testation of ; they were no company for me. I should not have spoken 
 to them at all under any ordinary circumstances. 
 
 Q. All the transactions you had with WiUard were settled in the 
 ordinary way, and cleared at the Gold Exchange Bank ? — ^A. Yes, sir ; all 
 up to the 24tli. 
 
 Q. Settled without compromise ? — A. Yes, sir ; I never made any com- 
 promise. 
 
 Q. Were your transactions of the 24th settled ? — ^A. So far as I was 
 concerned everybody who had a right to do so called upon me, and I 
 gave my checks ; being amply protected myself, I had no excuse for not 
 doing so. When it came to making the clearing outside of the gold- 
 room, I just checked out my gold and delivered it. 
 
 Q. Did you have any trouble in settling with Mr. Willard ? — A. lifone, 
 I think. 
 
 Q. Or with any other parties with whom you transacted business ? — 
 A. None. 
 
 (^. Did you have any trouble in settling at the Gold Exchange Bank ? — 
 A. Yes, sir. There was a balance of fifty-eight thousand, currency, in 
 my favor at the Gold Exchange Bank. I deposited my check for that 
 amount in my bank, as I always do. Next day the cashier sent me word 
 that my check was only partially good ; in other words, that it was not 
 all paid at the clearing-house ; that out of the check for fifty-eight thou- 
 sand dollars twenty-seven thousand was good, but the balance was not. 
 Thereupon I took advice of my counsel, and on stating the facts in the 
 case to him, he advised me to have the bank put into the hands of a 
 receiver. 
 
 Q. Did you, on or about the 28th of Sptember, bring suit against the 
 Gold Exchange Bank ? — A, I merely applied for an injunction, and to 
 have it put into the hands of a receiver. 
 
 Q. WTio was your counsel ? — A. Mr. Lane. 
 
 Q. Your claim had not been paid previous to the commencement of this 
 suit? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you in the final settlement give the Gold Exchange Bank a 
 receipt for the amount of your claipi ? — A. I think not. I simply gave 
 my check, I think ; it is not usual to pass receipts in such a case. I do 
 
lis GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 not think I did on tMs occasion ; however, I would not like to say for a 
 certainty. In those days I do not know what I may have done. 
 
 Q. Has your suit been discontinued ?— A. Yes, sir; a long time since. 
 
 Q. At whose instance?— A. I told Mr. Lane some time aiterward, 
 when my check had been paid, that I had no further occasion to con- 
 tinue the injunction, and to withdraw the suit. I think some other par- 
 ties were taken up and put in my place. 
 
 Q. Did you receive from the bank the amount you claimed in that 
 suit? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When?— A. Pour, or five, or six days afterward; I do not remem- 
 ber exactly. My cashier notified me, first, that ten thousand dollars had 
 been deposited ; then there was another installment ; and finally it was 
 all paid up. 
 
 Q. Did you withdraw your suit on consultation with anybody else ex- 
 cept your counsel ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you make a compromise with any other parties ? — A. I made 
 no compromise; I got my money iu full. Mr. Benedict sent for me 
 one day. I went into the offtce, and he asked me what I had applied for 
 an injunction for ? He said there were plenty of securities in the bank 
 to pay my check, &c. That is all I remember. 
 
 Q. At whose instance did you bring that suit ; was it on the advice 
 of Mr. Willard, or of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. ?— A. Not on their ad- 
 vice, certainly; that was the general impression on the street, 1 know; 
 but it is false. 
 
 Q. How came you at first to bring the suit ? — A. I was mentioning my 
 troubles to Mr. Lane; he said to me, "Put the bank in the hands of a 
 receiver and you can get your money." I replied, very well; then I 
 would employ him as my counsel, and told him to go ahead. I knew 
 that a man had to strike quick if he did anything at all, in those days. 
 I was at work, day and night, trying to get myself out of those difficul- 
 ties. I hardly slept at all. 
 
 Q. Did you bring more than one suit against the bank ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And that suit was for an injunction and for appointing a receiver ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. JVlio was the receiver appointed ? — A. Mr. Brown, at first ; then 
 afterward Mr. Lane told me that Mr. Brown was going out, and that 
 they were going to appoint Mr. Jordan, at the request of the bank, and 
 asked my consent for them to do so. 
 
 Q. Did you employ Mr. Lane and settle with him yourself? — A. Yes, 
 sir; he acted as my attorney, and Field & Sherman as my counsel; I 
 made the settlement with them myself; I handed the check either to 
 them or to Mr. Lane, I now forget which. They sent to me one day and 
 wanted a retainer. 
 
 Q. In what way did Mr. Lane explain to you the appointment of a 
 receiver would benefit you ?— A. In looking over the affairs of the bank, 
 while I was there one evening, I found that they would lose a very large 
 amount of money if they went on to clear ; it looked to me as if the 
 directors in the interest of the bank wanted to save it, they would have 
 to get a receiver appointed of their own, throw out all doubtful accounts, 
 protect themselves, and let the community suffer, although the bank 
 was alone to blame. My idea was that if the bank was put into the 
 hands of a receiver at the instance of somebody else, the bank would be 
 largely the loser, as it ought to be, and everybody else would get their 
 money. 
 
 Q. How did the appointing of a receiver actually benefit you ? ^A. It 
 
 hurried up the business. When my cashier sent me word that my check 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 117 
 
 was not paid, it annoyed me considerably. Mr. Lane said the appoint- 
 ment of a receiver wonld get me my money. 
 
 Q. Did it in fact get you your money ?^A. I think it hurried it up. 
 
 Q. Was the money paid to you ? — A. The money was paid on my 
 check, through the medium of the clearing-house, to my bank. 
 
 Q. The entire thirty-one thousand dollars ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it paid in the ordinary way, or in pursuance of an order from 
 the court ; or did you, or some of your firm or clerks, settle with the re- 
 ceiver? — ^A. I did not go to settle with the receiver. My idea is that 
 the bank had a certain amount of gold pledged in the clearing-house for 
 this check. That I do not know, however. I only know that the check 
 was paid. 
 
 Q. Do you know how the settlement of your claim was brought 
 about? — A. It was by the receiver himself, on his own motion. 
 
 Q. It was not done by an order of the court ?— A. I can merely tell 
 you what I know. I took dinner with Mr. Jordan, subsequently, and 
 he told me that he had hauled up my cashier and given Mm fits about 
 this thing, and had the money paid, and that is all I know. 
 
 Q. Did your suit against the bank prevent its continuing its opera- 
 tions in clearing 1 — A. STo, sir; I do not think my injunction did. I 
 think they were incapacitated before the injunction came. 
 
 Q. Supposing they were not incapacitated, would your injujiction have 
 stopped them 1 — A. I think it would. 
 
 Q. Do you know of injunctions against the bank brought by other par- 
 ties ? — A. No, sir; I had nothing to do with anything of that kind. You 
 will find that my business was conducted for myself alone, and to take 
 care of myself. 
 
 Q. Were you enjoined by any person, or by any court, from doing any- 
 thing ? — A. Yes, sir ; Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. enjoined me from re- 
 ceiving or delivering any gold for their account. I went over to see Mr. 
 Smith, and asked him what the meaning of that was, for I had had no 
 transactions with them. He said it was an error, and set down and 
 wrote a note relieving me from the injunction, and stating that it was an 
 error. I came back, made my. statement, and was ready to deliver gold 
 in fifteen minutes afterward. 
 
 Q. What r'eason did you give Mr. Smith for asking him to release 
 you 1 State what conversation you had with him. — A. I asked him why 
 he had enjoined me, and said I had had no transactions with him. He 
 said it was all a mistake. 
 
 Q. Did you make any threats, or say anythiag of that sort? — A. I 
 told him I should go on to receive and deliver gold, whether the injunc- 
 tion was taken off or not. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Smith or Mr. WUlard tell you it was a merely formal mat- 
 ter, to keep those whom they could not trust from playing the devil, or 
 words to that effect 1 — ^A. He said that so far as X was concerned it was 
 a mistake. , 
 
 Q. Did they say anything to you about enjoining anybody else ?— A. 
 That was already done ; the thing was aU done in a lump, taking in a 
 dozen names. 
 
 Q. What did you understand the purpose of the injunction to be ? — 
 A. I have since understood that the purpose of the injunction was to 
 prevent their being overwhelmed all at once ; to prevent their brokers 
 from receiving all this gold immediately, and to give them time to turn 
 around ; to receive it piecemeal, and adjust their transactions. 
 
 Q. Then it was an interference of the court to enable them to get 
 through with their business ? — A. That is my opinion. 
 
118 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Did you understand that a simple note from Mr. Smith would re- 
 lieve you from the order of the court enjoining you ? — ^A. Certainly. I 
 think if you will look at the injunction you wiU find that the right is 
 there given to Mr. Smith to raise the injunction, when he felt disposed to. 
 
 Q. You understand, then, that it was in the power of the parties who 
 enjoined you to dissolve the injunction in regard to any one individual, 
 and shut down in regard to another'?— A. Certainly; Mr. Smith really 
 had the whole thing in his power. However, as I had had no transac- 
 tions with Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. at all, I should have disregarded 
 the injunction; but in order to have an understanding, and guard 
 against any mistake whatever, I went over to see Mr. Smith about it. 
 He said that so far as I was concerned it was an error, and then wrote 
 me a release. 
 
 Q. Will you furnish the committee with his order releasing you from 
 the injunction ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. So you understand it did not require an-y decree of the court to 
 relieve you from the injunction ? — A. I do eo understand it. 
 
 Q. Did you then proceed to make a settlement of your matters, with- 
 out regard to the injunction ? — A. Certainly I did. 
 
 Q. And you proceeded with the injunction of the court stiU over you ? — 
 A. I did not say that. The decree of the court could not affect me in 
 any case, because I had had no transactions for these people ; besides, 
 the decree itself gave Mr. Smith the power to set it aside, and he did 
 grant me a release. 
 
 Q. Give to the committee an account of a meeting up town on the 
 25th of September, Saturday ; also of a meeting the same day at Wil- 
 lard's office; also of a meeting Sunday evening, the 26th, at the bank — 
 at which meetings the committee understand you were present. — A. I 
 never spoke to Jay Gould to my recollection, until Sunday, the 26th. 
 He was going into the Gold Exchange Bank, and I was introduced to 
 him by his partner, Mr. Smith. We went into the bank and tried to 
 cook up some plan for getting the clearing-house straight and putting 
 it through. I could not record any particular conversation. It was a 
 continuous business conversation. 
 
 Q. Who were there?— A. Mr. Benedict, Mr. Gray, Mr. Smith, Mr. 
 Tanner, Mr. Underhill, Mr. Gould, myself, and jjcrhaps others I do not 
 now recollect. 
 
 Q. What was said in regard to settlements, and what was said in 
 regard to these injunctions'? — A. There were no injunctions out at that 
 time, unless it may have been in regard to particular accounts. 
 
 Q. Was anything proposed to be done in the way of injunctions, in 
 order to prevent settlements being made ? — A. I really cannot remember. , 
 You must take into consideration that I was laboring under great 
 excitement. If anything was said on that subject I have really for- 
 gotten it. 
 
 Q. State as fully as you can what transpired there. — A. K I were to 
 do that I should say just about nothing. We were talking of receipts, 
 examining accounts, and seeing if we could not arrive at some plan by 
 which the bank could be extricated from its difficulties. That was the 
 main topic of conversation, and who said anything, or did anything, I 
 cannot tell. 
 
 Q. Did you have a meeting with any of these parties up town on 
 Saturday? — A. No, sir. I never saw any of them until Sunday. 
 
 Q. Are any of your matters connected with these transactions unset- 
 tled yet? — A. I have nothing unsettled with the Gold Exchange Bank. I 
 have several contracts not fulfilled. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 119 
 
 Q. Are you a member of the gold board ? — A. I am. 
 
 Q."Have yon had any difficulties in the gold board? — A. I have 
 brought suit before the arbitration committee against C. Ward & Co., 
 who bought a million of gold of me, which is still unsettled. 
 
 Q. Did they belong to the gold clique 1 — A; I think not. I think 
 they were heavy sufferers by it. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge that any ofScer of the government, either 
 in Washington, New York, or elsewhere, was concerned, directly or 
 indirectly, with the gold panic ? — A. No, sir. I can only speak from 
 common report. 
 
 Q. Are you personally acquainted with the officers of the government 
 in New York 1 — A. No, sii-. 
 
 Q. Did you see any of these officers there, during the days of the 
 panic, having any conversation with any of the parties supposed to 
 belong to the gold ring ? — A. No, sir. I would not know Mr. Butter- 
 field if I was to see him. Mr. Corbin I do not know. My business in 
 all this matter'was straightforward business transactions. The street, 
 generally, think I know more than I do, because I saved myself. 
 
 Q. Were not consultations in regard to settlements, after the panic, 
 carried on between Mr. Willard, Mr. Gould, Mr. Fisk, and yourself, and 
 were not all these parties frequently, consulting together in regard to 
 settlements 1 — ^A. Not to my knowledge. All the transactions I had 
 with Mr. Willard occurred in my back office. I may have met him on 
 the street and talked with him casually, but not otherwise. 
 
 Q. Did you have any intercourse with Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. in 
 regard to settlements — were they not concerned in your settlements ? — 
 A. Subsequent to the 24th ; no, sir. 
 
 Q. On the 24th? — A. On the 24th they were concerned in the bulk 
 of the business that was done. Due bills passed from one to another in 
 these transactions, and in that way I was brought into intercourse with 
 them. 
 
 Q. Is there any doubt in your mind that E. K. Willard was acting for 
 or in connection with what is now known as the gold clique to raise the 
 price of gold ? — A. I think Mr. Willard was operating for Smith, Gould, 
 Martin & Co. entirely. There seemed to have been two separate rings 
 in this matter : one a ring of rascals, and the other not much better. 
 Still, one letting everybody operating for them go to the devU ; the 
 other settling their contracts. Mr. Willard was acting with the one that 
 settled their contracts. What compromise they made I do not know ; 
 but they certainly stood by the brokers they employed, and made every- 
 body good. 
 
 • Q. Who lost by these gold operations'? — ^A. The merchants lost very 
 heavily, and speculators lost very heavily. It made no difference on 
 which side they were, the fluctuations were so rapid and so great, they 
 all lost. 
 
 Q. Who do you understand made by the transactions ? — A. I have 
 figured them over pretty carefully, and I cannot find anybody who 
 made out of them, unless it was this man Belden. 
 
 Q. Do you think he made all that the rest lost ? — ^A. Oh, no ; it was 
 distributed around. 
 
 Q. Do you know of Belden having gone into bankruptcy ? — A. No ; I 
 only know that I never spoke to him but once in my life. 
 
 Q. Have you had any consultation with any of these parties since you 
 were summoned to testify before this committee ? — A. No, sir ; I have 
 seen some of them, but not to have any conversation on this subject. 
 
120 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 21, 1870. 
 Charles J. Oseoen recalled and examined. 
 
 By the Chaxema.n : 
 Question. You stated in your evidence yesterday that you had brought 
 suit before the arbitration committee of the Gold Exchange, against Ward 
 & Co., for a million of gold sold them September 24. State to the committee 
 where that gold was sold and the circumstances connected with it. — ^A. 
 Ward came into my back office on that day. I had called him for a 
 million of gold at 37^. He said he had no gold on hand to make that 
 delivery to me, and begged me to sell to him. I settled the call for a cus- 
 tomer of mine at 150, for which he paid the money. Then he said that 
 would do him no good, as he had still further calls, and requested me 
 to sell him a million more, which I went out and got for him. That was 
 the cause of the suit. 
 
 Q. How came he to buy the gold of you, in your private office, instead 
 of buying it at the exchange? — A. Mr. StockweU, a gentleman who had 
 called on him, was very much alramed on finding that he did not have 
 the gold ; and I being Mr. Stockwell's business man, he brought Mr. 
 Ward down to my office, for me to settle the matter with him. 
 
 Q. State what you said to him, and what induced him to buy this 
 gold. — A. I told him, from the looks of the market, unless these short 
 gold contracts were settled, there was no telling what price it might 
 run to. I do not know that I m ade any particular representations to him, 
 any more than in speaking of the general condition of the market. 
 
 Q. How long did Mr. Ward remain in your office ? — A. Perhaps five 
 minutes, or in that neighborhood. 
 
 Q. During the time he was in your office, did you leave it and come 
 back again ? — A. No, sir ; he left it for a short time and came back. 
 
 Q. Did you, during that time, go out and consult with any one on 
 .the subject?— A. I did. 
 
 Q. With whom did you consult ?— A. With E. K. WiUard. 
 
 Q. Did he give instructions which you obeyed ? — A. Ko, sir ; I asked 
 him if he would allow me to sell a million of gold at 50, and settle for it 
 for his account. 
 
 Q. What were the terms of agreement in regard to that, on this occa- 
 sion, between yourself and Mr. Willard % — A. None, except the mere 
 matter of purchase and sale. 
 
 Q. Did you see Mr. Willard with Mr. Smith ? — A. Ko, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you, on that occasion, see Mr. Willard and Mr. Smith 
 together ? — A. TSo^ sir. 
 
 Q. Was anybody else with Mr. Willard besides yourself at that intej- 
 view ; if so, Who ? — A. His clerks may have overheard the conversation. 
 I should think not, however ; he was there all alone. 
 
 Q. Did you make any other private sales and settlements, in your 
 office, on the 24th of September ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State the amounts, persons, and prices. — A. I made one of $55,000 
 with Howes & Macy. I think that was all. 
 
 Q. Did you know that similar settlements were being made, at the 
 same time, in Smith, Gould, Martin & Co.'s office? — A. Ko, sir; I did 
 not until some time afterwards, when I heard that the thing had been 
 done. 
 
 Q. Did not Mr. Willard and Mr. Smith both tell you that they had 
 made or were making such private settlements? — A. I did not see Mr. 
 Smith until that evening, until after the whole thing was over. 
 
 Q. Did they, when you saw them, tell you that they had been making 
 
GOLD PANIC INVKSTIGU.TIOK. 121 
 
 such private settlements? — ^A. Willardtoldmeso; I had no such conver- 
 sation with Smith. 
 
 Q. State the total amount of gold sold by you privately on the 24th ; 
 both that which was received by the buyers and that which was not 
 received. — ^A. That is more than I could tell you without reference to 
 my books. 
 
 Q. State it approximately. — A. Including Ward's and all, I should 
 think in the neighborhood of seventeen or eighteen hundred thousand. 
 
 Q. To whom did you account for the gold sold? — A. To E. K. Willard. 
 
 Q. After the 23d, were all the ixansactions you had for account of 
 E. K. Willard, and by orders of Smith, Gould & Martin?— A. The only 
 instructions I had were from E. K. Willard. 
 
 Q. Was not the gold you had on hand delivered to parties who had 
 received it from Smith, Gould & Martin, or their brokers, for their 
 account? — A. All the gold I delivered was on actual sales of my own. 
 
 Q. From whom did the parties to whom you delivered have to receive 
 their gold? — A. They had to receive it from me. 
 
 Q. For whose account? — A. For account of E. K. Willard. 
 ■ Q. Were you not instructed to pair off for this gold, as the term is, 
 with parties who had gold coming to them from Smith, Gould & 
 Martin? — A. Willard instructed me to pair off with several houses 
 through which it seemed gold was coming round to him. 
 
 Q. Please explain to the committee what you mean by pairing off. — A. 
 For instance, I may sell to a parly who sells to another, and the other 
 sells to me. We do not actually pass any gold; we just circulate due 
 bills round. 
 
 Q. Suppose you wanted to have the gold market affected, is that a 
 process by which it is accomplished ? — ^A. Tes ; that would be what is 
 called "washing." This was not a " wash." 
 
 Q. Explain the term " washing." — ^A. A man comes and buys fifty 
 thousand of me and gives me an order to sell fifty thousand; if I should 
 happen to sell, that would be a "wash;" but that is too low a trans- 
 action for parties often to engage in. These transactions were not of 
 that description; they came in the ordinary course of business; it only 
 happened that it passed around in that way. 
 
 Q. It happened to come out as though it had been a " wash ? " — ^A. No ; 
 because there were two or three parties through whom it passed, show- 
 ing that it was not a "wash." A "wash" is between two individuals. 
 
 Q. If there was any doubt in your mind, prior to the 24th of Septem- 
 ber, that E. K. Willard's orders to you were for account of Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Co., was there any doubt left in your mind after the 
 24th? — A. I cannot say there was; of course, however, that is merely 
 my individual conclusion. 
 
 Q. Was your position, on the morning of the 24th of September, long 
 of gold, for E. K. Willard, or short of it? — A. It was long. 
 
 Q. State the amount as nearly as possible.^ — A. It was long, between 
 four or five millions. 
 
 Q. At the close of the 24th, how was it? — A, My books would have 
 shown me short some three millions. 
 
 Q. Did you sell any gold on the 24th on your own account? — A. There 
 may have been one transaction of twenty or thirty thousand. 
 
 Q. All the rest you sold for E. K. Willard? — ^A. There was some sold 
 for other customers of mine, in the ordinary course of business. 
 
 Q. Have you stated to the committee all the facts within your knowl- 
 edge relating in any way to the movement in gold, in September last, 
 and the subsequent settlements ? — A. AU I can say is this, as regards 
 
122 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 the movement in gold I was as ignorant as any other broker on tlie 
 street, up to the time of the movement. Subsequent settlements led me 
 to believe that there was some combination or other in gold; precisely 
 what, I could never find out. 
 
 Q. Try to recall, if you can, what transpired that Sunday evening, or 
 Sunday night, at the Gold Exchange Bank. What was the drift of the 
 investigations into accounts that took place there ? — A. I really cannot 
 tell -you anything at aU about that; 1 did not really know anything 
 about what transpired ; it was all trying to fix up matters of the bank. 
 
 Q. Were all the accounts examined indiscriminately, or did they 
 single out accounts 1 — ^A. I think they singled out some of the accounts 
 that they considered as bad. 
 
 Q. Do you remember which accounts were specially singled out ?— A. 
 I remember those of 0. C. Parks, T. B. Giinnell, P. H. Williams, Dornin 
 & Boocock. There is a printed statement somewhere in existence of the 
 accounts thrown out at that- time, from which you could get a more fall 
 idea than I could give frpm memory. 
 
 Q. You did not understand that that meeting was for the purpose of 
 helping the bank out of its difficulties ? — A. There was some proposition 
 for Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. to assist the bank in helping it to get 
 through its clearing. There was nothing, however, AThich transpired in 
 reference to it ; but that was the drift of the conversation. 
 
 Q. Was not all of the investigation that took place there for the pur- 
 pose of ascertaining whether it would be possible to protect the brokers 
 of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., Heath & Co., and E. K. WUlard, 
 &c. ? — ^A. I really think not ; I think that matter was not considered 
 there. 
 
 Q. Were not several plans proposed and rejected because, in each 
 instance, they involved assuming the transactions of Speyers, Dornin 
 & Boocock, and others ? — A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Was it not finally decided to abandon the settlements of that sort 
 and to prevent the money which Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. had in 
 the bank from being drawn out by them, by having the bank enjoined, 
 and a receiver appointed ? — ^A. Not to my knowledge ; if there was such 
 a thing I did not know it. ' 
 
 Q. When did you consult Mr. Lane, in regard to your injunction 
 against the bank ? — A. The day I received my check &omthe bank, and 
 a day or two after the meeting. 
 
 Q. Did you meet him by accident ? — A. Tes, sir. , 
 
 Q. How much did you pay him ? — ^A. That is a matter about which I 
 could not give you any correct information from memory. I could find 
 out exactly by reference to my books. 
 
 Q. How and when did you pay him ? — A. That I cannot remember. 
 
 Q. If you do not now remember, please send to the committee, from 
 ISTew York, a copy of the check which you gave Mr. Lane, and any cor- 
 respondence you had with him in regard to this matter. — A. I will 
 do so. 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 21, 1870. 
 John P. Bigelow sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Question. State your place of residence, and the position you hold 
 under the government of the United States.— Answer. I live in Wash- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 123 
 
 ! ington-; I am chief of the loan branch, in the ofiflce of the Secretary of 
 ; the Treasury. 
 
 Q. What duties, if any, are you accustomed to perform in regard to 
 the national banks ? — ^A. None in particular. I have been sent off, by 
 ! the Secretary, in two or three cases, for examination. 
 i Q. During the month of September, 1869, were you sent by the Secre- 
 1 tary for examination into any national bank? — ^A. Yes, sir; into the 
 1 affairs of the Tenth National Bank of New York. 
 i Q. State what were your instructions. — ^A. They were as follows : 
 
 " Trbasukt Depaetment, 
 " Office op the Comptrollbe of the Teeastjey, 
 
 " Washington, September 23, 1869. 
 ! "Albert Wyman, John P. Bigelow, and John W. Magruder, are 
 i hereby appointed and authorized to examine the Tenth National Bank 
 t in the city of New York, with power to make a thorough investigation 
 of its affairs, and to examine any of the officers or agents thereof, under 
 fi oath, as provided in section flfty-four of the national currency act. 
 : " Witness my hand and official seal this 22d day of September, 1869. 
 ; " H. E. HUELBUED, Comptroller. 
 
 " Countersigned and approved. 
 
 ' GEO 
 
 " Secretary of the Treasury P 
 
 "GEO. S. BOUTWELL, 
 
 ,j Q. State what you did in pursuance of that order. — A. We reached 
 
 New York on the morning of the 24th of September, at seven o'clock. 
 
 J We took possession of the bank at half-past eight o'clock, the same 
 
 J morning, before any business had been transacted, and before any of 
 
 their safes or vaults had been opened. 
 J Q. Who was in charge at the time you took possession ? — A. Some of 
 [j the clerks of the bank ; no officer of the bank was there. 
 .. Q. State what you did, what you found, and the result of the investi- 
 , gation. — ^A. I think that the general remarks in our report, a copy of 
 " which I have here, will cover the substance of my examination ; and I 
 ' submit this as an answer to that question. 
 
 Q. State what relation you found, from the examination you gave the 
 ' bank, it sustained to the brokers, and what was the condition of bro- 
 kers' accounts in that bank ? — A. Most of the brokers had very light 
 , deposits there. It appeared to us that two or three firms of brokers 
 were, in fact, running the bank. 
 
 ' Q. Name the brokers. — ^A. Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., Stout & 
 Dickinson, Seligmund, and William Heath & Co. 
 
 Q. Did it appear to you that their transactions were too large for the 
 amount of their deposits ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How did they compare i. — A. That we could not tell. The firm of 
 Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. had certified over seven millions in one 
 day. How their deposits were made for these certified checks we could 
 not tell. There were no dates showing the time of day they were made. 
 Q. The books of the bank were not in such a condition as to enable 
 yon to say whether this seven millions was properly secured or not ? — 
 A. I have here a statement of the securities which they held for a tem- 
 porary loan. It was these securities which made the clearing-house 
 good and helped them out. 
 
 Q. State how you divided your duties and what each separate man 
 did in the examination of the bank. — ^A. Mr. Magruder principally ex- 
 
124 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 amined the certified checks and brokers' accounts, also the country bal 
 ances. Mr. Wyman and myself took the account of funds on hand 
 examined the securities on which they had made temporary loans, anc 
 made memoranda of these. We also examined the accounts of deposib 
 of country banks. 
 
 Q. You found that the bank had out, as shown by the books at th( 
 moment of your arrival, the amount of seven and a half millions. Whaj 
 did you find as to the actual deposits of the bank at that time ?— A, 
 We found eighteen and a half millions of certified checks of otliei 
 banks, which they had received that day or the day previous. In othei 
 words, they owed this Tenth National Bank, through the clearing-house, 
 eighteen and a half millions. 
 
 Q. What amount of deposits in the bank did you' find other than the 
 certified checks of other banks? — A. We found deposits of brokers, 
 $2,221,000; due from national banks, $400,000; due from other banks 
 and brokers, $10,000. 
 
 Q. What were the deposits of brokers in ? — A. Cash. We could not 
 tell, of course, what their deposits in cash were. We simply found the 
 balance of accourits due. 
 
 Q. How long did you three gentlemen continue your examination!— 
 A. We stopped on the morning of the 25th, at 10 o'clock. 
 
 Q. Why did you stop ? — A. Mr: Oall«nder appeared with an order of 
 the Comptroller of the Currency to suspend the examination. 
 
 Q. Did the order suspend the examination absolutely or turn it over 
 to Mr. Callender ? — A. It turned it over to Mr. Callender, who went on 
 and finished the examination. We received on the morning of the 25th 
 a dispatch "to examine the National Currency Bank. Examine afly 
 bank that you think needs it. Probably you had better remain until 
 Monday night." On the morning of the 26th we received another dis- 
 patch from Washington, as follows: "Examine no more banks; com- 
 mittee may return. By direction of the Secretary." I think there was 
 a letter also, which came to Mr. Magruder the morning of the 26th, ask- 
 ing us to suspend examination. 
 
 Q. When you were ordered to stop examination had you completed 
 what you intended to do? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What further had you to do ? — A. We expected to stay there until 
 Monday night, and until they had got through with this panic excite- 
 ment, and then to make a thorough overhauling of their books. They 
 were working niglit and day, and wanted to keep the bank running. We 
 were interrupted a great deal in the examination by their being obliged 
 continually to refer to the books. This day of the panic there was rnn 
 upon the bank, and it was impossible to do business. 
 
 Q. State whether you have any knowledge in what way Mr. Callender 
 assisted the bank to settle its balances? — A. By borrowing money on se- 
 curities which they had left for call loans or temporary loans. 
 
 Q. From your knowledge of the duties of a bank examiner was that' 
 a usual or an unusual course ? — A. Unusual, I think. 
 
 Q. Did you see Mr. CaUender that day ? — A. I saw him in the after- 
 noon of the 25th. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Callender assist the bank in the manner which you 
 have suggested in your report at the request of the officers of the bank 
 or on his own motion ? — A. I could not say as to that. 
 
 Q. How do you know that Mr. Callender assisted the bank in settling 
 its balances ? — A. I saw him go out several times and return bringing 
 money and delivering it to the officers of the bank. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 125 
 
 The following is the examiner's report referred to in the above tes- 
 timony : 
 
 Nvunber of Bank 307. — Examiner's report of the condition of the Tenth National Bank, 
 located at New YorTc City, in the county and State of New ¥crrle, at 8J o'clooTc a. m., Sep- 
 tember 24, 1869; J. B. DicUmon, President; J. R. Stout, Cashier. 
 
 AmoTuit. 
 
 EESOUECES. 
 
 Notes and bills discounted 
 
 Overdrafts .-. 
 
 United States bonds to secure circulation 
 
 "United States bonds to secure deposits 
 
 United States bonds and securities on band . . . 
 
 Otber stocks, bonds, and mortgages 
 
 Due from approved associations in New York . 
 
 Due-fi*om other national banks . '. ^ , 
 
 Due from otber banks and bankers 
 
 Banking house -.. 
 
 Other real estate 
 
 Furniture and fixtures 
 
 Expense account, including taxes 
 
 Premiums 
 
 Suspense account 
 
 Cash items 
 
 Exchanges for clearing-house 
 
 Stamps 
 
 Bills of otber national banks 
 
 Bills of State banks 
 
 Fractional currency 
 
 Specie, via; 
 
 Goto 
 
 Gold treasury notes 
 
 Gold checks on other banks 
 
 Legal tender notes 
 
 Clearing-house certificates 
 
 Three per cent, certificates 
 
 Cash short 
 
 Total. 
 
 Capital stock paid in. 
 
 Surplus fund 
 
 Discount 
 
 Exchange 
 
 Interest 
 
 Premiums 
 
 Profit and loss 
 
 Circulation received from Comptroller $915, 000 
 
 Less amount on band $1,800 
 
 Amount returned for bumine; '. 3, 000 
 
 4, 800 
 
 Amount outstanding 
 
 State bank circulation outstanding 
 
 Individual deposits, viz : 
 
 Subject to check 
 
 Demand certificates -' 
 
 Time certificates 4 
 
 Certified checks ■ 
 
 Cashier's checks outstanding 
 
 United States deposits 
 
 Deposits of United States disbursing officers 
 
 Brokers' deposits 
 
 Due to national banks 
 
 Due to otber banks and bankers 
 
 Notes and bills rediscounted 
 
 ' Bills payable 
 
 Unpaid dividends 
 
 Cash over 
 
 Total.. 
 
 Jl, 833, 682 80 
 
 69, 100 85 
 
 1, 036, 000 00 
 
 83, 258 ID 
 687 05 
 
 10, 000 00 
 20, 092 02 
 174, 124 83 
 50, 906 13 
 20, 544 70 
 18, 543, 810 62 
 
 10, 652 00 
 
 ""7,449'33 
 
 1, 909 45 
 
 226, 800 00 
 
 29, 335 70 
 
 256, 890 00 
 
 410, 000 00 
 
 22, 785, 303 73 
 
 1, 000, 000 00 
 
 43,000 00 
 
 14, 510 04 
 
 46 42 
 
 55, 275 54 
 
 182, 416 65 
 
 910,200 00 
 
 334, 113 32 
 14, 610 00 
 
 17, 582, 166 18 
 
 % 221, 423 82 
 
 416, 370 84 
 
 10, 409 92 
 
 22, 785, 303 73 
 
 Records and other books : Found correct — not very neatly kept. 
 
 President, cashier, directors, .and stockholders : Examining the bank for a special 
 purpose, it was not deemed necessary to inquire into the character of the ovraers and 
 managers of the bank particularly, the more so as they are probably well known to the 
 Comptroller of the Currency. 
 
126 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Office : Well situated, but smaU and IncouTenient for a bank doing so large a busi- 
 ness as this. „ I , 
 Safe : Two ftre and burglar proof safes, large size. Herring's make. JNo vault. 
 
 DIVIDENDS AND SURPLUS. (SECTION 33.) 
 
 Date of last dividend, July 1, 1869. Amount, $42,105 36. Carried to surplus, $3,000, 
 
 CLASSIFICATION OE LOANS AND DISCOUNTS. 
 
 Commercial or business paper ) » 
 
 Bona fide biUa of exchange... > $fa4b,089 59 
 
 Accommodation paper ) 
 
 Bad debts, (as defined by section 38) - ■ 
 
 Past due paper, (exclusive of bad debts) - 
 
 Unsecured loans - 
 
 Loans secured by real estate - - 
 
 Loans payable on demand 1,187,593 27 
 
 Indebtedness of directors as principals _ 
 
 Indebtedness of directors as indorsers -" 
 
 Loans exceeding the limit prescribed by section 29, viz : None. 
 
 GENERAL REMAUKS. 
 
 The Tenth National Bank is essentially a "brokers' bank," as is evident from the ac- 
 companying statement of its liabilities and assets, and consequently its prosperity de- 
 pends in a great measure on that of Wall Street speculators ; every convulsion in the 
 street being felt by the bank to a degree which, in times of panic, renders the preser- 
 vation of its credit a matter of some difficulty. This was clearly seen during the 
 examination. 
 
 The breaking down of the gold market on the 24 th instant affected the credit of bro- 
 kers who had large dealings with the bank, and depositors supposing the association 
 involved with those brokers checked out their funds so rapidly that a forced suspension 
 of payments seemed imminent. 
 
 On the morning of the 25th inst. the bank was debtor to the clearing-house $72.3,000, 
 the payment of which was only effected late in the day by the greatest exertion on the 
 part of the regular examiner of the New York City banks, who, after the officers of the 
 bank had failed in doing so, succeeded in borrowing a sufficient amount of money on 
 part of the collaterals held for the demand loans to pay the balance due the clearing- 
 house, and with the funds on hand meet the demand of depositors, who, as stated 
 above, were drawing out their funds as rapidly as possible. 
 
 These facts are merely mentioned to show that the Tenth National Bank is used to 
 facilitate the speculations in stocks and gold carried on in Wall Street ; and that its 
 operations are not, as they should be, confined to legitimate business. 
 
 Checks of brokers are certified, in many cases, apparently without any bona fide de- 
 posits having been made as the basis of such certifications, though of this there was no 
 positive proof, as the business of the day before (23d) was written up before we entered 
 the bank, and, of course, no illegal certifications were made while we were there looldng 
 on. Among the exchanges t() be sent to the clearing-house on the morning we com- 
 menced the examination, there were, however, some uncertified checks on other hanks, 
 which had been credited to depositors the day before and their checks on such de- 
 posits certified as good. 
 
 There was no evidence that the bank was engaged in actually locking up money; 
 but that it greatly aided those who were, by that or other means, daily raising the 
 price of gold is proved by the amount of certifications, which were as follows : 
 
 September 23, $18, 727, 000, the bank being debtor to the clearing-house on the next 
 day, $162,000. 
 
 September 24, $14, 500, 000, the bank being debtor on the next day $723, 000, a large 
 proportion of the checks certified being those of the principal operators for a rise in gold. 
 
 On the 25th, when the operations in gold were very light, the certifications were 
 merely nominal, and the bank was credited at the clearing-house on the following hns- 
 iness day, (Monday, 27th,) $518,000. 
 
 The collaterals held for the loans payable on demand are not of the best class, and 
 many of them do not seem to have any market value, though the cashier claims that 
 the margin at which they are held njakes the loans secure beyond a doubt. 
 KespeotfuUy submitted. 
 
 A. W. WYMAN, 
 JNO. P. BIGELOW, 
 J. W. MAGEUDEB, 
 
 To THE Comptroller of the Currency, WasUngton, D. C. 
 
GOLD PANIC mVESTIGATIOlir. 127 
 
 ■ No. 68. — leiith National Bank. — Settling elerk'a statement, September 24, 186D. 
 
 No. 
 
 Banks. 
 
 Debit. 
 
 Bank of New York, National Banking Association . 
 
 Manhattan Company 
 
 Merchants' National Bank 
 
 Mechanics' National Bank 
 
 Union National Bank 
 
 Bank of America 
 
 Phenix National Bank 
 
 National City Bank 
 
 Tradesmen's National Bank 
 
 Fulton National Bank 
 
 Chemical National Bank 
 
 Merchants' Exchange National Bank 
 
 Gallatin National Bank 
 
 National Butchers' and Drovers' Bank 
 
 Mechanics' and Traders' National Bank 
 
 Leather Manufacturers' National Bank 
 
 Seventh "Ward National Bank 
 
 JNational Bank of the State of New York 
 
 American Exchange National Bank 
 
 National Bank of Commerce 
 
 National Broadway Bank 
 
 Ocean National Bank 
 
 Mercantile National Bank 
 
 National Bank of the Republic 
 
 Chatham National Bank 
 
 People's Bank. 1 
 
 National Bank of North America 
 
 Hanover National Bank. 
 
 Metropolitan National Bank 
 
 National Citizens' Bank 
 
 Nassau Bank 
 
 Market National Bank -_.... 
 
 St. Nicholas National Bank 
 
 National Shoe and Leather Bank ..--.. 
 
 Corn Exchange Bank 
 
 Continental National Bank 
 
 National Bank of the Commonwealth 
 
 Marine National Bank 
 
 Atlantic National Bank 
 
 Importers and Traders' National Bank 
 
 National Park Bank 
 
 National Mechanics' Banking Association 
 
 Grocers' National Bank 
 
 North River Bank.- 
 
 ITourth National Bank 
 
 Central National Bank 
 
 Ninth National Bank 
 
 irirst National Bank 
 
 Third National Bank 
 
 New York National Exchange Bank 
 
 New York Gold Exchange Bank 
 
 2, 175, 729 17 
 
 101, 435 24 
 
 33, 853 21 
 
 502, 977 64 
 
 1, 936, 320 82 
 
 . 86, 982 64 
 
 1, 014, 434 IS 
 
 216, 287 04 
 
 1, 346 34 
 
 169 05 
 
 1, 796 26 
 
 829 13 
 
 48, 625 00 
 
 1, 326 89 
 
 146 00 
 
 260, 941 24 
 
 675 80 
 
 681, 159 03 
 
 469, 065 59 
 
 264, 009 46 
 
 1, 380 00 
 
 1, 428 16 
 
 6,441 87 
 
 163, 106 61 
 
 923 40 
 
 1, 393 60 
 
 213, 436 82 
 
 93, 417 04 
 
 310, 326 25 
 
 2, 119 09 
 
 53, 181 47 
 
 8, 911 69 
 
 86, 179 33 
 
 488, 889 3% 
 
 630, 217 2f 
 
 908, 746 64 
 
 i, 743, 898 It 
 
 31, 915 86 
 
 14, 300 00 
 
 10, 391 75 
 
 56,980 90 
 
 913, 253 87 
 
 85 04 
 
 2, 150 22 
 
 !, 237, 770 54 
 
 3, 913 08 
 
 8, 499 01 
 
 208 98 
 
 336, 072 42 
 
 69 00 
 
 321, 092 87 
 
 Total. 
 
 18, 543, 810 32 
 
 brokers' balances. 
 
 stout & Dickinson S87,025 23 
 
 Gold 
 
 Lookwood & Davenport 66,363 04 
 
 Gold 32,412 18 
 
 Meyer 14,253 82 
 
 Gold 19,348 31 
 
 Frank & Bros 23,085 55 
 
 Gold 2,284 00 
 
 J.&W. Seligman 96,964 97 
 
 Smith, Gould, Martin & Go 249,738 55 
 
 R. Hatoli&Co 25,000 00 
 
 Wm. Heath & Co 
 
 KimbaU 130,796 11 
 
 H.L. Horton 38,705 61 
 
 Edward Livermore 43,540 46 
 
 A.W.Sheppard 52,732 25 
 
 B. &D. Chapin 38,678 66 
 
 Kidd, Pierce & Co 370,398 91 
 
 Soutter&Co : 2,967 93 
 
128 GOLD PAMIC INVESTIGATION, 
 
 Edward Tausig , • $18,895 01 
 
 Benedict. 83,793 49 
 
 E. Dzondi 20,657 77 
 
 E. W. Martin, jr., & Co 110,508 05 
 
 Gold.-.-! 14,023 95 
 
 Edward F. Root -- 21,649 44 
 
 Eeed, Leo & Content 26,614 21 
 
 Hoyt & Gardner , 7,639 82 
 
 Quinman 49,796 31 
 
 J. N. Ewell 13,074 85 
 
 W.G.Wiley 30,994 88 
 
 Pitoli&Bowen 4,653 37 
 
 Martin, Maas & Co 31,953 77 
 
 Lavenbnrg & Bro - - 23, 218 84 
 
 Wirth 8,96193 
 
 Ginter, Colquit & Co 1,366 89 
 
 L. G. Ploranee 11,805 78 
 
 Markham 27,962 28 
 
 George W. McLean - 15,255 82 
 
 J.T. EoUins 5,476 36 
 
 Jno. A.Eiston 12,573 60 
 
 Speyers&M 26,600 49 
 
 Suydam & Vincent 11,149 86 
 
 B.F. Kendall - 73,424 62 
 
 S & Nason 1,773 79 
 
 , Westervelt & Co 3,34192 
 
 Whitaker&E 11,426'90 
 
 Bollea&Co 14,306 02 
 
 Keep & Co - - 15,880 82 
 
 MitcheU 20,733 18 
 
 Mills ^ - 5,047 39 
 
 Wm. P. EUery 18,734 04 
 
 Ward 1,454 38 
 
 P & Brewster , 1,412 59 
 
 National Stock Exchange. 7,989 23 
 
 Nordlinger 5,439 29 
 
 Eising 9,934 73 
 
 Jackson... - . 4,525 51 
 
 Nathan 417 17 
 
 Hanahnrg 70 48 
 
 Priedman 170 79 
 
 E.J. Hanks 1,656 52 
 
 Fearing 32147 
 
 E. C. Stedman 958 67 
 
 P. Burras 948 17 
 
 F.H. Smith 22 17 
 
 Walters 588 00 
 
 C. N. B. Wetzlar 140 00 
 
 N. H. Messenger 831 08 
 
 EoliertWaUer 168 42 
 
 Sargent 151 67 
 
 B. P. Munroe 826 41 
 
 E. Lambert &Co 625 08 
 
 S. B. Hard 253 22 
 
 L. Joseph • 12 94 
 
 M. Prank & Co 796 28 
 
 AlhertAub 7 06 
 
 White 759 02 
 
 G.Prank 1,029 69 
 
 C.F. Pfeiffer 238 76 
 
 Hall 1,257 13 
 
 Joslyn „. 19 12 
 
 Livingston 27 00 
 
 S.A. Joseph 617 96 
 
 Cohen - 349 20 
 
 Stehhins t - 381 48 
 
 Yelverton 3,316 72 
 
 Shepard&Co 141 05 
 
 A. G. P. Speyers 328 04 
 
 Wetter & J 4,073 30 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 129 
 
 Stokes &S $19,922 70 
 
 Nichols ., 53,108 03 
 
 Hall&G 9,282 71 
 
 Sundry accounts 1, 881 37 
 
 Bukman 5 00 
 
 Bacon Bros. & Starr 100 
 
 Ashley 1,000 00 
 
 Quinan(gold) 100,000 00 
 
 g, 261, 649 93 
 40,926 11 
 
 2,220,723 82 
 
 General ledger $2,221,423 82 
 
 Brokers' ledger 2,220,723 82 
 
 *700 00 
 
 * See account of Kimhall & Co., ledger 2, p. 1189. 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 21, 1870. 
 EiCHAED SCHELL swom and examined. 
 
 By the OhaikmAN : 
 
 Question. State your occupation and place of business. — Answer. 1 
 am a broker, at No. 50 Wall street, Kew York City — at least I am 
 called a broker. My business is rather that of a speculator. 
 
 Q. Were you engaged in business as a broker during the month of 
 September % — A. I was speculating. 
 
 Q. Were you engaged in dealing in gold during that month % — A. 
 Fo, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you accustomed to dealing in gold ? — A. Very seldom. 
 
 Q. Were you familiar with the movement in gold during the month of 
 September ? — ^A. Nothing more than to hear the general news of the 
 street. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with the effect of that movement on the general 
 business of New York % — A. I am. 
 
 Q. State to the committee from your knowledge of business in New 
 York what was the general effect on the business of the country of that 
 movement in gold. — A. It checked the whole business of the country. 
 
 Q. For how long a time % — A. Fully ten days, and afterward it had 
 a bad effect in depreciating the value of stock. 
 
 Q. Has that bad effect ceased at this time, or do you still think it is 
 influencing business % — A. We are still feeling the effects of it. . 
 
 Q. In what way did it affect business injuriously % — ^A. By, breaking 
 up firms and breaking up confidence. 
 
 Q. Did it result in a large loss to persons engaged in legitimate busi- 
 ness % — A. It did on WaU street to speculators and brokers. . 
 
 Q. Did it affect injuriously merchants and others generally % — ^A. I 
 should think it did. 
 
 Q. What do you understand to be the cause of this extraordinary rise 
 in gold % Was it the legitimate result of proper and legitimate business, 
 or was it brought about by artificial means ? — A. By artificial means 
 solely; by speculative movements. It was done for the purpose of 
 making a corner, as is generally believed, on the street, and as appears 
 on the face of it. 
 
 H. Eep. 31 9 
 
130 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. State from yottr knowledge of business if it is clear to you that it 
 ■was an artificial thing produced on purpose by somebody for the pur- 
 pose of affecting the price of gold. — A. There is no doubt about it. 
 
 Q. From your extensive acquaintance with public men, state whether 
 you know any of&cer of the government of the United States being 
 directly or indirectly concerned in this gold movement ? — A. I do not 
 know of any oflcer being concerned directly or indirectly. 
 
 Q. Are you personally acquainted with the leading officers of the 
 United States in New York ■?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Would you be likely to have known if they had been thus en- 
 gaged ! — A. I think I would. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. State whether in your opinion there is any way to prevent such 
 combinations to bring about such results 1 — A. I have an impression 
 that if the clearing-house in gold were broken up entirely, and business 
 allowed to go back to its proper course on the street, it would check 
 these large operations in gold. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with the operations of the Gold Exchange 
 Bank ? — A. Ko, sir ; not much. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with its history, when it originated, &c.? — A.. 
 Ko, sir. 
 
 Q. State to the committee whether in your judgment the Gold Ex- 
 change Bank is necessary to the legitimate business of transactions in 
 gold 1 — A. I should think it was not. 
 
 Q. Do you transact your business through it ? — A. I sometimes do a 
 little business in gold through the brokers, and I presume they carry 
 on their transactions through the clearing-house. 
 
 Q. State, from your knowledge of the business in New York, whether^ 
 in your judgment, the Gold Exchange Bank, in its clearing-department, 
 gives facilities to these men to get up such a corner, and whether they 
 could have done it so easily if there hadbeen no Gold Exchange Bank?— 
 A. I do not think they could have done it at all if there had been no 
 clearing department. 
 
 Q. State to the committee your reasons for that opinion. — A. For 
 instance, I am a broker, and buy and sell gold. The transactions are 
 settled through the clearing-house, and through that medium I can 
 probably buy a million of gold on five or twenty thousand dollars 
 capital. A settlement of aU the transactions of the day is made up, 
 and the differences, often amounting to very little, are then settled. 
 Let me say that one of the best judges in regard to this matter in New 
 York is William B. Duncan. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. You state that this gold bank was produced in the interest of a 
 ' certain class of persons ; who were prominent in that class? — ^A. I do 
 not know of my own knowledge. I can tell you what rumors are on the 
 , street. 
 
 Q. Who have you reason to believe were most prominent ? — A. I have 
 , no reason to believe anything except from rumor. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. How was the gold business, in New York, transacted during the 
 ; period in which this Gold Exchange Bank remained suspended after 
 : the panic ? — A. I do not know. 
 
 .Q. Do you know whether there was any difficulty in transacting busi- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 131 
 
 ness in consequence of that suspension ? — A. No, sir ; I think there was 
 not. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Were the prices of stock affected in proportion to the rise and fall 
 of gold ? — A. Yes, sir ; the panic in gold caused a terrific panic in 
 stocks. 
 
 Q. Why was that ? — A. It weakened a good many firms who were 
 speculators in gold and stocks, and they were obliged to force their 
 stocks on the market to make' up their differences. 
 
 Q. State whether this movement in gold had any effect upon the 
 volume of currency available for active business purposes ? — A. It took 
 a great deal of money from active business purposes to carry this gold. 
 They came into the market as bidders for currency at high rates. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Did they pay higher rates for money than were paid by persons in 
 legitimate business 1 — A. Oh, yes. 
 
 Q. And to that extent kept it away from the legitimate channels of 
 business. — A. Yes. 
 
 Washington, January 22, 1870. 
 
 Jay Gould sworn and examined. 
 By the Chaieiiian : 
 
 Question. State your residence and place of business. — Answer. New 
 York ; my business is railroading and steamboating. 
 
 Q. State whether you are engaged in any other business ? — A. I am 
 not engaged in any other business. I have a house in Wall street, but 
 I do not do business there. I am a member of Smith, Gould, Martin 
 &Oo. 
 
 Q. In order to get the truth out, I have drawn up a list of questions 
 leading in the direction in which I desire to get testimony. Were you 
 familiar with the doings in and the price of gold during the month of 
 September last? — A. Yes, sir; I have been familiar with the price of 
 gold for the last two years. 
 
 Q. I believe you stated, before the grand jury in New York, that Messrs. 
 Woodward and Kimber and Oorbin were associated with you, in Septem- 
 ber last, in advancing the price of gold 1 — A. I do not understand that 
 they were associated with me. Mr. Kimber sold exchange for one 
 foreign house, the house of Stern Brothei'S, and he would buy gold when 
 he thought it was cheap, with a view of selling exchange against it in 
 the future. So far as he was ever connected with me it was merely his 
 entertaining the same general views as I did as to the future course of 
 the commodity. At that time he had no gold with me, that was in the 
 pool, so to speak. Mr. Woodward had some gold. Whether he sold it 
 prior to the last movement or not, I do not know. I never exchanged 
 a word with him on the subject. We bought gold together, and each 
 would take his own gold and pay for it. The reason we bought it 
 together was that if two or three parties were in the market buying 
 gold at the same time they would bid it up ; but if only one party bid 
 for the whole, he would buy cheap. This was the reason why we bought 
 it together and divided it pro rata. 
 
 Q. Was the suggestion for this movement first made by Mr. Wood- 
 ward to you? — A. No, sir; I never had any conversation with him 
 about any movement in gold. 
 
132 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. When did you first begin to buy gold largely!— A. I bought gold 
 along in the spring. Business got very dull after the inauguration. 
 Gold went down to about thirty and stopped the movement of produce. 
 Our business in consequence fell off very much. I went in and put gold 
 up. The bears sold gold down on the inauguration of President Grant 
 and the appointment of Mr. Stewart as Secretary of the Treasury. I 
 took it at their price and put it up four or five per cent., which started 
 up business a little, and I sold my gold out. I sold it about April or 
 May. Other parties took hold of it and carried gold up to about 42 or 
 43. That was shortly after Mr. Boutwell was appointed. He went in 
 and threw a large amount on the market, taking in greenbacks for it 
 and making money very stringent. That stopped business the second 
 time, and it got so that Ve were not doing anything. Then I went in a 
 second time. That must have been in July or August. I went in witli 
 a view of piltting gold up. At that time the fact was established that; 
 we had an immense harvest, and that there was going to be a large sur- 
 plus of breadstuffs, either to rot or to be exported. I had a careful 
 examination made, and I found that with gold at 40 or 45, Americans 
 would supply the English market with breadstuffs ; but that it would 
 require gold to be at that price to equalize our high-priced labor and 
 our rail transportation with the low-priced labor and the water trans-' 
 portation from the Mediterranean. With gold below 40 we could not 
 export, but with gold above 45 we would get the trade. 
 
 Q. How did you make that calculation ? — A. Much of my information 
 I got from a gentleman very conversant with that business, who had 
 originally introduced American produce in England — Mr. James Mc- 
 Henry — and who had spent almost his whole life in studying it in com- 
 petition v/ith the Greek and Mediterranean produce. I got my flg-ures 
 from him. I got him to give me about the basis upon which we would 
 get the trade. We figured it at about 40 to 45. That we considered 
 the true commercial price of gold. That was a price which would give 
 American produce a market abroad. 
 
 Q. How will the rise in gold give American produce the foreign mar- 
 ket ? — A. The farmers West are pretty rich, and they sell very reluc- 
 tantly unless they get a profit iipon their products. Labor and rail 
 transportation are high, and rather than do business at a loss they will 
 let their produce lie; but as the price of gold goes up the price of wheat 
 goes up. Last spring, when the Secretary sold gold, we had in one day 
 orders stopped for 400 cars that were ordered to ship grain. The sale of 
 gold fell like a pall upon the country, just as this last movement has 
 fallen. Every ruib-oad man knows that the whole movement from the 
 West now is stopped. Gold wfent down in July to about 31 or 32, and 
 my idea was to put gold up to about 40 or 45, not higher. 
 
 Q. When did the September movement begin, so far as you were con- 
 cerned ? — A. My only rule in buying was to buy when gold declined 
 below a certain i)rice, and to sell when it rose above a certain price. 
 
 Q. When did you begin to buy largely ? — A. I bought in the fore 
 part of September and in the last of August. 
 
 Q. To whom did you give orders to buy! — A. I do not recollect; to 
 different brokers. I gave no personal orders. I gave the orders through 
 my house, but they were distributed. 1 think the most of my business 
 was done through Chapin and Willard. 
 
 Q. Were Ohapin and Willard in company ? — A. Ko. But the brokers 
 there are a lot of speculators, and when a man goes into the market 
 who they think has some power, they watch him, and if he gives them 
 an order to buy a hundred thousand dollars, they will first buy three or 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 133 
 
 four hundred thousand dollars on their own account ; so, in order to 
 conceal the movement, we would sometimes give an order to sell while 
 we were really buying. 
 
 Q. To whom else, besides Chapin and Willard, did you give orders to 
 buy? — A. It appears to me that a Mr. Enos had some orders; I do not 
 know his given name. 
 
 Q. Any one else ? — A. I do not recollect any other. 
 
 Q. To whom else, so far as you recollect, did your firm give orders? — 
 A. I do not recollect any other. 
 
 Q. Did you, when Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., and other firms were 
 buying gold for you, also sell gold occasionally? — ^A. Yes; I was selling 
 all the time. ^ 
 
 Q. That is, after buying a large amount you generally sold? — A. I 
 commenced selling at thirty-five and sold all the time. 
 
 Q. Would you say that generally through the latter part of August 
 and the first three weeks of September you and your firm, or your brokers 
 for you, bought almost every day more gold than you sold during those 
 three weeks of September! — A. I guess they sold more than they 
 bought. 
 
 Q.' Take the five weeks ending the 23d of September, and how was 
 'it? — A. I do not believe there was a difference of over a million between 
 the purchases and sales tor the whole period. 
 
 Q. Did you have a general knowledge of those operations yourself? — 
 A. Yes, sir; I had a general knowledge of them. 
 
 Q. Was a daily statement prepared in the ofi&ce of your firm, showing 
 the amounts of gold purchased by the different brokers, the amounts 
 sold, and the amounts loaned, and the persons to whom loaned 1 — A. 
 No; I carried the whole thing in my "head, what 1 knew about it. 
 
 Q. Did you keep no books of those transactions, nor have any kept? — 
 A. No, sir; I never kept a book in my life. 
 
 Q. Were no statements prepared for you from time to time, and the 
 results of those purchases and sales and loans communicated to you? — 
 A. No, sir; I do not recollect any. 
 
 Q. How did you know when the brokers made transactions for you 
 what the amounts were? — A. For instance, one broker sold a million 
 and another bought $900,000, there was $100,000 left to begin with the 
 next day. 
 
 Q. You simply took a note of the difference? — A. That was all. If 
 you undertook to write up such a thing as that in a book, it would take 
 a very large book. A good many of those transactions are merely 
 paired off'. 
 
 Q. Explain what you mean by pairing off? — ^A. To illustrate it, gold, 
 we will say, is at 40J. A broker goes in and buys half a million at 40J. 
 In the course of the day it will get up to a quarter, and he will sell half 
 of it at that price, and one-half at the same price he got it at. He will 
 go to the broker to whom he sold at 40 J and say, "I bought this morn- 
 ing for A, $250,000 at 40|, I will pair off with you." That settles the 
 transaction without going through the clearing-house. 
 
 Q. That would merely show on the books without being a real trans- 
 action? — A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. What was the largest amount that you and your firm, and those 
 associated with you, held or controlled about the middle of Septem- 
 ber or at any time in September ? — A. I cannot say. It would have 
 been some millions. 
 
 Q. Was it not about fifty-six miUions on the 22d of September? — A. 
 No, sir. 
 
134 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATIOIf. 
 
 Q. How near tliat?— A. It was some millions, but mucli less than 
 that. 
 
 Q. How much less should you suppose?— A. I should think that half 
 of that would be a large flgaire. 
 
 Q. But did you not know how much you owned and controlled ?— A. 
 Not from memory. I have had large transactions since, and they have 
 passed out of my mind. 
 
 Q. And have you no memorandum to show it? — A. No, sir; not a par- 
 ticle? 
 
 Q. How much gold and gold certificates do you estimate that there 
 was in all New York, outside of the treasury, on the ■22d of September?— 
 A. I think there were about sixteen or eighteen millions. I think 
 there were about eighteen millions of certificates outstanding, and there 
 were about two or three millions of that scattered in Boston and 
 Baltimore and Philadelphia, used in the ordinary course of trans- 
 actions there, which were issued from the New York sub-treasury. 
 Then there was more or less gold that was in vaults and which would 
 have come out. Belmont had a lot of doubloons, and some other houses 
 had a lot of doubloons, which they would have converted into certifi- 
 cates if gold had become scarce, but gold was not scarce at any time. 
 
 Q. Taking the gold certificates and the gold altogether, not counting 
 the sub-treasury, how much do you think was in New York at that 
 time ? — A. I should say there were about fourteen millions of gold cer- 
 tificates, and I think that there were about three or four millions of gold. 
 
 Q. You would say, then, that there were not more than twenty milliong 
 of gold certificates and gold together ? — A. Not over that. Some of the 
 Montreal banks send gold down to New York. They are large specula- 
 tors. They throw gold on the market there and convert it into certifi- 
 cates. 
 
 Q. At the close of business on the 22d of September you held or con- 
 trolled more gold than there was in the city, outside of the sub-treasury ?— 
 A. Yes sir, I think I did. 
 
 Q. When you bought five or ten or eleven millions of gold, did you 
 have money enough to pay for so large an amount of gold ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How did you pay for it ? — A. The foreign banking-houses and a 
 good many private gentlemen were heavily short of gold. That is, they 
 had sold gold, expecting to buy it in at a decline. They had over sold 
 the market. They took this gold and carried it. It took no money to 
 carry it : For instance, your friend on the left is short a miDion of 
 gold and you are my broker. I tell you to go and buy a million of gold. 
 You go and buy it, and I tell you to loan that out. You go to that gen- 
 tleman who is short, and he borrows it fi'om you and pays you the 
 market price of it. It takes no money. It takes merely credit to carry 
 it. But if you make a corner in gold, if you make gold scarce, then it 
 takes money, because you have to take the gold out of the market. Then 
 it becomes like buying a hundred cargoes of grain ; you have to pay for it. 
 
 Q. Then I understand that as soon as you bought gold you loaned it 
 to parties who would give currency for it ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did not your brokers lend the whole of the gold bought for you as 
 soon as it was bought ? — A. All that we could was loaned out. I gave or- 
 ders to make gold as plenty as they could. 
 
 Q. To whom was it loaned ? — A. To the bears, to the foreign banking- 
 houses, and to some large operators. 
 
 Q. Was it loaned to the shorts ? — A. Yes. sir. 
 
 Q. What do people generally borrow gold for as a business transac- 
 tion now carried on in New York * — ^A. Because they are short of it. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 135 
 
 Q. That is, they borrow it to meet the engagements that they have 
 already made? — A. Certainly. They borrow it to offset speculative 
 sales. 
 
 Q. They borrow it because they have sold what they did not have ? — 
 A. That is it. That is what produces all the great fluctuations in the 
 market. 
 
 Q. If there were only twenty millions of gold in New York, and if you 
 bought about thirty, was it not evident that yoa had bought at least ten 
 millions which others had sold that they did not have? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Now, when the daily statement was prepared ia your of&ce, or in 
 the office of your brokers, or whatever statement may have been made 
 to you showing the amount of gold controlled by you or your firm, or 
 by the brokers for you, and showing the amounts loaned and parties to 
 whom loaned, could you learn from that statement who was short of 
 gold; was there any chance to learn that from it? — ^A. Oh, yes; that 
 would show. 
 
 Q. If you knew who had sold gold who did not have it, and if you had 
 bought the gold so sold, and had bought besides all the gold that there 
 was in the city, would not the parties who sold this gold to you be 
 obliged to buy from you, if they were obliged to buy at all; was not that 
 the situation? — ^A. No, sir; they would keep short of gold and import 
 
 it- . , , 
 
 Q. If they weire obliged to buy it immediately they would be compelled 
 to buy from you? — A. Yes, sir; or else of some other person long of 
 gold. 
 
 * Q. If they wanted to buy gold to deliver, which they had sold, must 
 they not then have bought of you or of some one else who would seU? — 
 A. That would not necessarily follow. They could buy of any other per- 
 son who was long of gold. For instance, I might buy long twenty mil- 
 lions of gold, and there might be ten other men in New York twenty mil- 
 lions long. Suppose there \^ere two hundred millions short, then there 
 must be two hundred millions long, or rather there must be two hun- 
 dred and twenty millions if there are twenty millions in the market. I 
 estimated that there were two hundred millions short, and there must 
 have been two hundred and twenty millions long of gold in New York. 
 
 Q. You say that that was your estimate at those times? — A. Yes, sir; 
 Belden, I believe, was long about seventy millions of gold. 
 
 Q. Who else was long of gold to your knowledge? — A. Some of the 
 banks held gold and were long of it; and then there are always lots of 
 old fogies who keep gold to look at, and the foreign banking-houses 
 keep it. 
 
 Q. Was it not the plan of yourself and associates, in your efforts to 
 advance the price of gold for the purpose of facilitating the exports of 
 the crops, to buy all the gold that there was in the city, and then to buy 
 as much more as people who did not have the gold would sell you, and 
 then force those who had sold what they did not have to buy back from 
 you at whatever price you chose to fix? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. In what respect is that not a fair statement of the case? — A. I did 
 not want to buy so much gold. In the spring I put up gold from 32 to 
 38 and 40 with only about seven millions; but all these fellows went in 
 and sold short, so that in order to keep it up I had to buy or else to back 
 down and show the white feather. They would sell it to you aU the 
 time. I never intended to buy more than four or five millions of gold, 
 but these fellows kept purchasing it on, and I made up my mind that I 
 would put it up to 40 at one time. I had no idea of cornering it. I al- 
 ways made it plenty. 
 
136 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Havingin viewalltlie time themerelighteningof prices?— A. That 
 is it. I thought to put it up so a,s to start business, and then quietly to 
 sell mine off. 
 
 Q. Did you expect to bold gold to 40?— A. No. My theory was that 
 if gold could stay at 40 or 45 until after the 1st of January, we could ex- 
 port about a hundred millions of produce, and that would turn the cm-- 
 reat of exchange in our favor, and gold would flow in here from Paris 
 and London, and that would create a downward tendency in gold, and 
 it would fall just as a ripe apple. That would have been a natural, 
 legitimate commercial decline. I think that gold would have gone to 25 
 or 20, and business be prosperoiis all the time, because we would have 
 turned the balance of trade in our favor and brought gold liere from 
 abroad. That was my theory. 
 
 Q. What did you intend to do with your own gold? — A. I tell you, 
 originally I commenced selling at 35, and intended quietly to get out of 
 it at from 37 to 40. But what put gold up so high, was that these bears 
 got frightened, and they commenced jumping over each other's shoulders 
 for it. The worst panics ever produced are bear panics. These people 
 know when they go to sleep that they have been selling what they have 
 not; and when they begin to rush in to cover, that puts up the price. 
 Gold went from 42 to 60 that day without a dollar changing hands. The 
 bears just marked it right up themselves. 
 
 Q. What were the terms of agreement between yourself and Kimber, 
 and Woodward, and other parties, concerning the movement in gold?— 
 A. I never had any agreement with any one; we merely bought gold; 
 we entertained similar views of the market; we would go in and buy a* 
 certain amount of gold and divide it. Each one would take his one- 
 third, and each one was at liberty to do with it what he pleased. 
 
 Q. What other persons besides Kimber and Woodward were in that un- 
 derstanding whose views coincided with yours ? — A. There were a good 
 many. I do not know all. These were tjie only parties who bought 
 gold and divided it in that way, but other people went in and bought it 
 on their own hook. 
 
 Q. How much did you understand that Woodward and Kimber were 
 themselves to buy ? Was there not an agreement as to the amount which 
 you would severally buy in that movement? — A. N'o, sir. 
 
 Q. Was nothing said about the amount? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there no understanding at all? — A. Oh, no; on the contrary, 
 Mr. Kimber, as I have been informed since, sold out gold at 37. He got 
 short of it and went uj). 
 
 Q. Was it not your understanding that by buying about thirty millions 
 yoii would advance gold so much that the shorts would get frightened 
 aud be obliged to cover and buy back, and that you could then sell the 
 gold you had bought?— A. No, sir; we went into it as- a commercial 
 transaction, and did not intend to buy such an amount of gold. I was 
 forced into it by the bears selling out. They were bound to put it down. 
 I got into the contest. All these other fellows deserted me like rats 
 from a ship. Kimber sold out and got short. 
 
 Q. Did you lend large amounts of gold to banks and brokers who you 
 supposed were not short of gold? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How much do you think you loaned in that manner? — A. I think 
 that quite a number of millions were loaned out. 
 
 Q. About seven millions? — A. More than that, I guess. 
 
 Q. How much do you think? — A. I guess there were some houses 
 short four or live millions. I estimated the short interest in the whole 
 city at the time at over two hundred millions. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 137 
 
 Q. About how much do you think you loaned? — A. I must have loaned 
 out most of it. I loaned out all I could. 
 
 Q. How much do you think? — A. I would say about fifteen millions. 
 
 Q. Did you instruct E. K. Willard and other brokers to be very par- 
 ticular to keep account of the number of all the gold certificates that you 
 had loaned to banks and brokers, so that you might ascertain whether 
 the persons to whom you loaned the gold went into the street and sold 
 it again, and thus defeated the object which you had in view ? — ^A. These ' 
 certificates do not pass. It is done through the clearing-house. 
 
 Q. Tou passed no certificates at all in any of these transactions? — 
 A. Kyou buy gold and I sell it, each one sends a ticket to the clearing- 
 house, and there the transaction is passed and the balances are settled 
 by gold checks. They keep what is called a gold account and draw a 
 check for the balance. 
 
 Q. Did you give the instructions that I have suggested to Mr. Wil- 
 lard? — A. No, sir. 
 
 (Question repeated.) 
 
 A. No, sir ; I do not recollect anything of the kind. 
 
 Q. You think you gave no such instructions to anybody? — A. No, sir; 
 I think it likely that I did this ; in lending out our gold, of course we 
 wanted to lend out all we could. If we borrow money on gold, we do 
 not want the parties from whom we borrow to use those same certificates, 
 because if they did they would be in the market lending out gold instead 
 of us. If you go to a house and borrow money on gold, you do not want 
 them to go in the market and sell out gold. I think it more than likely that 
 "that may have been done, although I do not remember it to have been 
 so. Brokers would need no instructions of that kind, because every 
 house in New York that keeps books properly would keep a record of 
 every certificate that passes through, and whenever you make a loan 
 there is a loan book in which is entered the number of each certificate, 
 and it is a penal offence to use them ; there is a very stringent law on 
 the subject, so that a thing of that kind would not be usual. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say a little while ago that some of these men 
 broke faith ; therefore I want to know whether you took precautions of 
 that sort to prevent yourself being thus treated "? I understood you to 
 say that some of your associates, in their efforts to advance the price of 
 gold did not adhere to the arrangement, but turned upon you? — A. 
 I had no associates ; but these parties had similar views with me, and 
 were operating in the same line. That is a mere street rumor too. 
 
 Q. Was the whole result of the movement in accordance with your 
 and their anticipations ? — A. I did not suppose that the government 
 was going to sell gold. So far as that was concerned, it was contrary 
 to my anticipations. 
 
 Q. But as to gold going up ? — A. I had no idea of gold going up. 
 Probably I was the most astounded man in the street. 
 
 Q. I understand you to say, then, that the price advanced much more 
 than you expected ? — A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. Did you not find on the 21st of September, when gold advanced 
 to 37 or 38, that you would be obliged to buy a good deal more gold 
 than you had calculated upon, in order to advance the price as much as 
 you expected ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Did not your partner (Smith) become alarmed, at the readiness 
 with which your brokers found that gold was sold to them by responsi- 
 ble houses, and principally by foreign bankers, and by the representa- 
 tives of cotton-shippers in New York and at the South ? Is that a fair 
 
138 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 statement ?— A. No, sir ; they were never frightened. All they know is 
 to obey orders. They do not know any such thing as fear. 
 
 Q. They have no light to be frightened when you give the com- 
 mand 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Woodward and Mr. Kimber become alarmed ?— A. I never 
 had any conversation with them on the subject of any fear. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect any meeting that took place at the of&ce of Mr. 
 Woodward on the evening or afternoon of the 21st of September ? 
 
 Witness. Meeting with whom 1 
 
 The Chaieman. Meeting with those gentlemen, and any others, at 
 that office on the evening of the 21st. Were you present at that oflce 
 on the evening of the 21st ?— A. No, sir ; not in the evening. I may 
 have been in the afternoon. There is nothing to fix my mind upon the 
 21st. 
 
 Q. That is the second day before the great movement. Thursday 
 was the 23d, Wednesday the 22d, and Tuesday the 21st. — A. I have 
 nothing now to fix my mind on the 21st. 
 
 Q. Did not Mr. Woodward and Mr. Kimber both, or either of them, 
 state, at a meeting there about that time, that this thing had gone far 
 enough ; that they did not intend to go any further : and that if you 
 intended to put gold higher, they must part company with you ? Was 
 any such conversation had about those times ? — A. No, sir ; I remember 
 no conversation of the sort. 
 
 Q. You recollect no meeting at which an arrangement was made that 
 these men. Woodward and Kimber, should be allowed to withdraw and 
 sell out their gold ? — A. No, sir. They did not need my assent to that. 
 
 Q. They would need it on this account : that you were acting on a 
 general similarity of views ? — A. Kimber told me that he bought his ■ 
 gold to sell his exchange against it; that he was using it in that way; 
 that he did not have it to sell. What I have said about him is a mere 
 street rumor. I do not know it of my own knowledge. I never passed 
 a word with him on the subject. 
 
 Q. How do you know that they went back on this general arrange- 
 ment and got scared ? — A. I did not say that Woodward did. I said 
 that there was a street rumor that Kimber did ; and I presume Mr. 
 Woodward may have sold his gold. I never asked him. That is a pri- 
 vate matter of his own. I do not wish to interfere in other people's 
 business. I do not know but they have got the gold now. 
 
 Q. Did their action in any way disconcert your plans, and necessitate 
 any different conduct, upon your part, from what you had expected to 
 jpursue ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Had William Belden, prior to the 21st of September, bought any gold 
 for you, or for those associated with you, in the effort of advancing the 
 price of gold to facilitate the movements of produce I — A. No, sir. I 
 never had any business with Belden. He never bought a dollar of gold 
 for me in the world. I never Iiad but one business transaction with 
 him in the world, and that was an operation at one time in two hundred 
 shares of stock. That is the only transaction I ever had with him that . 
 I remember. I never had a gold transaction with him in the world. 
 
 Q. Did any of your firm have anything to do with Belden during 
 those days ! — A. No, sir ; except, perhaps, in dealing in the street they 
 may have bought from or sold to his brokers, 
 
 Q- Did you see Mr. Belden during those days ? — A. Yes, sir. I used 
 to see Mr. Belden occasionally. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of any orders given by any of your firm to Mr. Bel- 
 den in those days ? — A. No, sir. Our firm never did any business with 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 139 
 
 Mr. Belden, except it might be in buj ing or selling. They had no 
 business association with him. 
 
 Q. Were you present at a meeting at the office of William Heath & 
 Co. on the evening of the 22d of September ? — A. I was in Mr. Heath's 
 office at some time in the afternoon, I think. I do not recollect any 
 particular meeting there. 
 
 Q. Were not orders given on the 22d or 21st by you, or by Mr. Pisk 
 for you, to Belden to buy large amounts of gold ? — A. Mr. Pisk never 
 gave any orders for me. 
 
 Q. Did you give any to Belden ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or order any to be given to him ? — A. No, sir. I have said that I 
 never did any business with Mr. Belden. 
 
 Q. Who was present at that meeting in Heath's office ? — ^A. I do not 
 recollect any meeting. I remember being in there that afternoon. It 
 is a sort of run-in place. 
 
 Q. Do you remember seeing Mr. Belden, Mr. Pisk, Mr. Smith, Mr. 
 Willard, and Mr. Heath there ? — A. I do not recollect whether they 
 were there or not. 
 
 Q. Was it not decided at that meeting, that the movement was to 
 be continued by Belden & Co., and those whom he was to employ ? — 
 A. There could not have been any such decision. Why should I ask 
 those men? They had no interest. I had all the interest there was. 
 I was the party to decide. I did not want their opinion. I had my own 
 opinion. I would listen to what they had to say, and very likely I did ; 
 but there was no decision. You do not suppose that I would go and 
 tell a broker, what I would do the next day. 
 
 Q. Were no orders given there at that time to any broker ? — A. No ; 
 not that I remember. 
 
 Q. And there was no agreement to give any order. — A. No, sir ; not 
 that I remember. There could not be any agreement, because there was 
 nobody to agree. 
 
 Q. You do not know whether any order was given, or agreed to be 
 given, to Belden to purchase heavily all through Thursday, the 23d, by 
 Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., with a view to put up the price as high as 
 possible, so that the shorts would be compelled to settlement ? — A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. There was nothing of that sort said ? — A. O, no ; I did not know 
 anything about Belden's operations. 
 
 Q. Were you present in Belden's office on the morning of the 23d, the 
 day before the break-down ? — A. I do not recollect being in there that 
 day. I may possibly have stepped in as I went along ; I do not recol- 
 lect it. I am quite positive now that I was not in there at all that day — 
 quite positive. 
 
 Q. If you were there, would you probably remember if you had seen 
 Albert Speyers there ? — A. I did not know Albert Speyers. I never 
 knew him until a person was pointed out to me, on the morning of the 
 movement, as Speyers. I never knew him before that. 
 
 Q. Was he not Introduced to you on the morning of the 23d f — A. I 
 do not recollect. My recollection is that the first time I saw Speyers to 
 know him was on the morning of the 24th. I remember being in Heath's 
 office, when Belden brought a man in there, a slim man, and told Pisk 
 that that was his broker, that he himself was very busy at the time, and 
 that he would like to have Mr. Pisk give him some orders while he 
 (Belden) was engaged in fixing his clearances, &c. That was on the 
 morning of Priday, the 24th. I do not recollect that 1 met Speyers be- 
 fore that. 
 
140 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. J. N. Smith present at that time?— A. O, no; he did 
 not know anything about it. 
 
 Q. Belden, Heath, Fisk, and yourself were there at the time that you 
 speak of ?— A. I do not know that Heath was there at that time. It was 
 in a private back-room of Heath's. There was a private entrance to it. 
 I do not think that Heath was in there. 
 
 Q. Who gave Speyers his orders at the time you referred to ?— A. I 
 was saying that Belden brought him in there and introduced him to 
 Fisk as his broker, and told him that he had a power of attorney from 
 him (Belden) to represent him in the gold-room, and he said to Fisk: 
 " I am going to be very busy fixing up my clearances, «&c., and would 
 like to have you give some orders to Speyers for me while I am engaged." 
 
 Q. Did he give those orders ? — A. He gave Speyers some orders. I do 
 not know what they were. I think he gave him some orders in accord- 
 ance with Belden's instructions. 
 
 Q. What were the relations between Belden and Fisk? Were they 
 partners for any purpose ? — A. Not that 1 know of, except that Belden 
 relied a good deal on Mr. Fisk. They used to be in business together. 
 I do not know anything about their relations. I did not give a single 
 order on Friday to buy gold. 
 
 Q. Did you know that on that day, the 23d, your partner, Smith, gave 
 Mr. Speyers his instructions in reference to loaning Belden's gold ?— A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you never known of that ? — A. No, sir. I do not think I 
 ever had, any transaction with Speyers, or that I employed him to do a 
 dollar of business. 
 
 Q. Do you know that on that day your broker, Willard, was, by in- 
 structions from your partner, Smith, giving instructions to other brokers 
 about the loaning of other amounts of gold bought by Belden under 
 orders from you and Fisk ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think that is not true ? — A. I never gave orders to him to 
 buy gold. 
 
 Q. I am speaking of orders given by your partner. — A. No, sir, I 
 do not think that can have been so. 
 
 Q. On the 23d of September, after leaving Belden's office, did you and' 
 Fisk go over to Belden's office and spend a great part of the day there?— 
 A. I do not think I was in Belden's office that day. 
 
 Q. Did you spend a good share of the day in Heath's office ? — ^A. I 
 was there a portion of that day. AH the time that I was down town, I 
 think I was in the back room of Heath's office. 
 
 Q. Were you present in Heath's office when Speyers reported to you 
 and Fisk, and to Smith, that he was unable to loan Belden's gold, on 
 account of the limits that your partner, Smith, had given him ; and did 
 Fisk, in your presence, instruct your partner, Smith, to receive and pay 
 for a portion of that gold ; and did Fisk instruct Heath to receive and 
 pay for the balance ? — A. I never heard anything of the sort. 
 
 (Question repeated.) 
 
 A. I knew nothing about Mr. Belden's or Mr. Speyers's transactions. 
 They would not, of course, tell their business to me. They did not know 
 how I stood in gold. 
 
 Q. Did anything like that occur in your presence ? — A. I do not re- 
 collect anything of that sort. 
 
 Q. You know of nothing like it ? — ^A. No, sir ; nothing that is like 
 it. That is one of the detail transactions that I would not inquire into 
 or know anything about. It is a very usual thing for a broker who has 
 gold or stocks over -to go to another broker who has money over, and 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 141 
 
 say, " Here, I have got a million of gold over, and if you have got a 
 million and a half in currency, do you carry the gold over night for me." 
 That is a very usual transaction. Such a thing may have occurred. I 
 would not be the party to know that. I never pay attention to these 
 details. 
 
 Q. Were you present at a meeting which took place up town on the 
 evening of the 23d, and ^t which Willard, Heath, Osborn, Pisk, Smith, 
 and others were present? — A. If I remember, that evening I was in my 
 oflftce at the Opera House transacting business. There are always parties 
 coming in and out there. These parties may have come in there. 
 
 Q. That evening, at the Opera House, was there any discussion as to 
 the plan to be adopted by which the shorts should be compelled to set- 
 tle ; and if so, what ? — A. As I said before, I had my own views about 
 the market, and had my own fish to fry, and I would listen to every- 
 thing that everybody said. I sat there transacting business, and very 
 likely I listened to what was said, but it went in one ear and out of the 
 other. I was all alone, so to speak, in what I did, and I did not let any 
 of those people know exactly how I stood. 
 
 Q. Still you had partners in your firm, and you could scarcely be 
 alone as to them 1 — ^A. They woiild not necessarily know. 
 
 Q. It depends upon whetherthey were real or only apparent partners. — 
 A. There are other ways of having things done. 
 
 Q. State what was said or what occurred there that evening in regard 
 to the settlement of these gold transactions. That certainly must have 
 been a proper time for a council of war in a campaign like that. — ^A. I 
 was transacting my railroad business, and whatever occurred there 
 probably went in at one ear and out of the other. I got no ideas from 
 anything that was said there. I had been selling gold from thirty-five 
 up all the time, and I did not know until that morning (the next morn- 
 ing) that probably there would come an order about twelve o'clock to 
 sell gold. 
 
 Q. Was there a proposition made that evening, in your hearing, to ad- 
 vertise the amounts that different parties were short of gold in the papers 
 next morning, and invite them to buy gold at 160 or else they would be 
 compelled to pay higher for it afterward ? — A. I remember hearing par- 
 ties there discussing, giving the names of houses that were short, and 
 some one suggested that if they advertised the names and showed that 
 they were two hundred millions short, beginning with Jay Cooke, so many 
 millions, and that they could get the gold from 40 to 45, it would frighten 
 them, and they would all come in and settle. I think there was some 
 such talk as that, but I never heard any price mentioned over 45. It 
 was never intended to carry gold over from 40 to 45. 
 
 Q. Did that plan meet with much support among those who were 
 present? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Why was it not adopted ? — A. There may have been parties there 
 who were short of gold, being in there to hear what they could, and that 
 conversation may have been merely to let them know that there was a 
 very large short interest. 
 
 Q. Do you think that that was the object of the conversation ? — A. If 
 I had been engineering it, that would have been my tactics. If there 
 were four or five men there heavily short of gold, that very conversation 
 would make them sleep very uneasily that night, to say the least. 
 
 Q. Who took part in the conversation ? — A. I do not recollect. I was 
 transacting my regular railroad business. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Fisk take part in it ? — ^A. I do not know what occurred at 
 
142 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGA.TI01T. 
 
 V that time. 1 have a recollection of a lot of brokers getting together, 
 and the thing was talked and laughed over. 
 
 Q. What opinion did you express on that plan?— A. I do not think 
 that my advice was asked. 
 
 Q. Do you remember having remonstrated against the proposal, say- 
 ing that the government would not stand that, that it would be sure to 
 interfere ? — A. I do not know what I may have said. I do not recollect 
 that I was applied to. I have just a recollection of hearing such a thing. 
 I think that if I had been applied to, my judgment would have been 
 rather against that. My view was that gold would go to about 40 or 45, 
 and would stay about there until we got the produce pretty well moved 
 off, and then that it would naturally sink of its own weight. I had no 
 idea of making any splurge. That was not my motive at all. 
 
 Q. How much gold did you, or others for you, or in connection with 
 you, buy on the 23d, the day before tbe breakdown? — A. I do not re- 
 collect. My recollection about these transactions is very indistinct. The 
 thing was over, and I banished it from my mind. I have been full of 
 other things since. 
 
 Q. You coidd not quite banish such an important fact as that. What 
 should you think the amount to be ? — A. I cannot say. 
 
 Q. Fifty millions ?— A. Oh, no, sir. 
 
 Q. l^ot more than forty? — A. I think my purchases were very light. 
 I was a seller of gold that day. I purchased merely enough to make be- 
 lieve that I was a bull. For instance, through brokers who had been buy- 
 ing for me, I would keep buying a little if I was selling through some- 
 body else. 
 
 Q. Speaking of this meeting of people at your ofSce on the evening 
 of the 23d, and the discussion of their plan to publish, in the papers, 
 the names of the persons short of gold, and the proposition to settle at 
 some rate between 40 and 50, was it finally settled, at that meeting, that 
 gold should be put up to 160 next day, and that, if necessary, Belden 
 and his brokers should be allowed to fail, and that all should be ar- 
 ranged so that, if the worst came to the worst, only Fisk should be held 
 responsible for Belden's contracts? — ^A. JSTever. 
 , Q. Was anything of that sort said in your hearing ? — A. Oh, no. 
 , Q. You heard nothing of that sort? — A. Certainly not. They did 
 not know my business. I was attending to my railroad business, and 
 heard just as little as I possibly could. 
 
 Q. Did you not go down to your ofSce early on Friday, the 24th, and 
 there, with Fisk, instruct H. K. Enos to jiut gold up to 150 ? — A. I was 
 not in my office on Friday, if I recollect right. No, sir; 1 was not in 
 my oflice that day. I never knew this man Enos until the thing was 
 over. 
 
 Q. Did you, either directly or indirectly, or did any person connected 
 with you, instruct him to put gold up to 150 ? — A. No, sir. , 
 
 Q. What instructions were given him by you ? — A. I do not recollect 
 of giving him any. I believe that he came to me afterward. I was in- 
 troduced to him, and he claimed that he had had an order to buy, and 
 that he had bought. My judgment all the time was that, as there was 
 a good deal of excitement, he bought this gold on his own hook, expect- 
 ing to sell it out, and that it was left on his hands, and that he came to 
 me and told me this pitifnl story to get me to take it off his hands. I 
 did not know Enos until afterward. 
 
 Q. Did you know that Enos, on an order said to have been given him 
 by you or Fisk, or by both of you jointly, bought about $400,000 of 
 gold, at 150, and that that gold was received and paid for by your 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 143 
 
 firm ? — A. I remember that this man Enos came to me afterward. I 
 found that he was a broker, whom our folks had used. He came to me 
 and told me this pitiful story, and I, out of sympathy, and believing all 
 the time that he had really bought this gold on his own account, took it 
 off his hands to keep him from breaking. That was the amount of it. 
 1 could not have given an order to him that day, because I had my own 
 plans, and I did not mean that anybody should say that I had opened 
 my mouth that day ; and I did not. That was Friday, the 24th. I did 
 not give any orders that day. 
 
 Q. Did you, on that day, after leaving your own office with Pisk, go 
 to the ofiace of Heath & Co. ? — A. The only offlce I was in that day was 
 Heath's. 
 
 Q. Did you, there, have an interview with H. M. Benedict, President 
 of the New York Gold Exchange Bank ? — ^A. Yes. Mr. Smith brought 
 Mr. Benedict there. 
 
 Q.' Did he then state to you his fears as to the inability of the bank 
 to clear the enormous transactions that you were having, and that fail- 
 ure would result and trouble ensue 1 — A. I remember his having an in- 
 terview with me in relation to clearing. There were some rumors about 
 the bank, and he came to see me about it. I had a short interview 
 with him. 
 
 Q. State the substance of that interview. — A. I think there was a 
 rumor around that the bank had, contrary to its rules, advanced cer- 
 tain favored firms gold on their statements. The rumor was injuring 
 the credit of the bank, and Mr. Benedict was brought to me. He was 
 in a great state of excitement. After the bank had made these ad- 
 vances, some brokers, who had sent in their statements, failed, and the 
 question was, whether it would not leave the bank liable for all the 
 statements. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Fisk, at that time, in your presence, and with your knowl- 
 edge, state to Benedict, " I may as well tell you that this is settling 
 day," or words to that effect '? — A. Mr. Fisk had some conversation with 
 Mr. Benedict. I do not know exactly what the tenor was. Mr. Bene- 
 dict was afterward brought to me, and I had a conversation with him. 
 
 Q. What did you tell him in relation to that? — A. I told bim that he 
 had better go on and do his business in the usual way, 
 
 Q, Did you tell him that that was settling day ? — A. No, sir ; I do not 
 recollect saying that. They were settling at that time. A great many 
 of those persons who were short were settling at that time, privately. 
 
 Q. Did you hear nothing like that said by anybody in the room', in- 
 forming Benedict that that was the day of break-down, the day of set- 
 tlement, the day of winding up the corner ? — ^A. He and Mr. Fisk had a 
 conversation. I did not listen to it. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Fisk, with your knowledge and consent, and in your pres- 
 ence, send an order for Livermore & Co. to buy a large amount of gold ? — 
 A. I did not know Livermore. 
 
 Q. Did he send an order to him ? — A. Never, that I knew of, except 
 what has come out since. I had no knowledge of it at the time. I did not 
 know the firm. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge that Mr. Livermore refused to buy for 
 Mr. Fisk, but offered to buy on account of Heath & Co. ? — A. No, sir. " 
 
 Q. Then you do not know whether Fisk told Mr. Livermore to buy it 
 for account of Heath ? — A. I did not know Livermore at all. I never 
 met him in my life to know him. 
 
 Q. During that morning, did Belden bring in Mr. Speyers, and did 
 Mr. Fisk, in your presence, tell Speyers to put gold to 150 ?— A. The 
 
144 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 only conversation I remember, is tlie one that I told you before, (repeat- 
 ing it.) 
 
 By Mr. CoBURN : 
 
 Q. What did Fisk say ?— A. I did not hear him say anything. 
 
 Q. Was he utterly silent ■?— A. I was up in one corner of the room. 
 What orders he gave I do not know. 
 
 Q. How did you hear Belden, and not hear Fisk?— A. Belden intro- 
 duced Speyers to him. 
 
 Q. And you listened to Belden and not to Fisk'?— A. I do not know 
 what orders he gave. 
 
 Q. Do you say positively, that you did not hear Fisk say anything at 
 that time ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. But you heard Belden 1—A. Yes ; I heard Belden introduce him. 
 I do not know that Fisk gave any order at that time. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Did Fisk, subsequently, give any orders to put gold up to 155 
 right away ? — A. I did not pay any attention to what orders he gave. 
 I sat in one corner of the room reading. 
 
 Q. You do not know, at a period later than the last referred to, 
 Speyers was ordered to put gold to 160. and buy all that he could?— A. 
 I know it only by hearsay. I do not know it of my own knowledge. 
 
 Q. You heard no such order given in that office that day ? — A. No, 
 sir, 
 
 Q. By hearsay, what do you refer to ? — A. It has been talked of since. 
 I heard Speyers say so. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear Fisk say anything about it? — A. I heard him 
 talk. I do not know that I have heard him say that. 
 
 Q. Have you heard him say anything about his transactions with 
 Speyers ? — A. Oh, yes. 1 did not want to seem to be listening to their 
 business. 
 
 Q. Did not Mr. Speyers, repeatedly, during that day, return to the 
 office and report to Fisk ? — A. I saw him in the office twice, I think, 
 after that ; once in the forenoon, and then after the thing broke. 
 
 Q. What was he doing there; what was he saying when he came the 
 next two times? — A. He came in to report the price of gold. 
 
 Q. To report his purchases ? — ^A. No, sir ; to report the price. 
 
 Q. Did you not know the price without his telling you ? — A. We were 
 in a private room, and knew nothing except what was told us. 
 
 Q. Did you hear Mr. Fisk say to him : " Do not report so often !"— 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you hear nothing said to Speyers about anything dm:lng 
 those visits in the room ? — A. Nothing that strikes me at this moment, 
 except that he came in and told the price of gold and that there was a 
 good deal of excitment, &c. 
 
 Q. Did you know or believe that any orders were given to Speyers, 
 during those interviews, to buy ? — ^A. I supposed that orders were given 
 him. 
 
 Q. At what rate ? — A. I did not know about that. 
 
 Q. Had you anything to do with regulating that? — A. No, sir. I 
 suppose that the orders given were given in accordance with Mr. Bel- 
 den's instructions. 
 
 Q. Was it not pre-arranged between you, Belden, WUlard, and 
 Smith, or understood between you, what was the course that you should 
 adopt in reference to these transactions that day, in that office ? — A. 
 No, sir. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 145 
 
 Q. Were you mere, accidentally, individuals happening together there, 
 without concert or arrangement ? — ^A. Mr. Willard was my broker and 
 came to see me. 
 
 Q. What orders did you give Mr. Willard that day? — ^A. I gave Mr. 
 Willard orders to keep selling gold. 
 
 Q. Did you limit him or did you tell him to sell on the market ? — A. 
 I told Mm to keep selling. 
 
 Q. Did you limit him as to the amount in price ? — A. I think I 
 told him not to sell below 35. 
 
 Q. But as to the amount, you gave him unlimited orders ? — ^A. Yes ; 
 gave him discretionary orders. Mr. Belden came to see Mr. Fisk. They 
 have been partners. 
 
 Q. Did you know that dpring all the time you were in the office that 
 day, on the 24:th, and when Fisk was, in your presence, giving orders to 
 Mr. Speyers to buy large amounts of gold, your partner Smith was set- 
 tling large amounts of gold through Carver and'Willard and other 
 brokers 1 — A. I knew that Mr. Smith and Mr. Willard were selling and 
 settling gold, and I supposed that Mr. Fisk was giving orders. 
 
 Q. Were those private settlements ? — ^A. They were the usual settle- 
 ments between brokers. 
 
 Q. I^Tot settlements through the clearing-house? — A. They should 
 pass through the clearing-house, but the clearing-house did not clear at 
 that time. The bank was suspended, so that the settlements were 
 necessarily private. 
 
 Q. And these settlements that were made in the private office of 
 your firm, with parties who were short, were not made through the clear- 
 ing-house ? — A. No ; the bank was suspended. 
 
 Q. What hour of the day did the bank fail? — A. The hour for clear- 
 ing was 12 o'clock, I think, and when 12 o'clock came they found out that 
 the bank did not clear. 
 
 Q. Did you know that at the same time all the brokers of your firin 
 had instructions to do the same thing — ^that Willard was making settle- 
 ments, and that Carver, and Osborn, and Cammack, and others were 
 making settlements by order of your partner Smith? — A. I presume 
 that that was so. 
 
 Q. You would not have the committee to understand that you were ig- 
 norant of the orders given, by your partner to make private sales to the 
 shorts ? — A. They merely had a general order to go on and sell all they 
 could sell, or to settle; but as to each individual's transaction and 
 through what it was done, or anything of that sort, I cannot tell. They 
 had just one general order. 
 
 Q. Was not your partner Smith in frequent communication with you 
 during that day ? — A. No, sir ; they were so very busy that they could 
 not come to see me. They had their general instructions and went 
 ahead. I may have se6n them perhaps four or five times daring the 
 day. He came with Benedict, and some other clients. 
 
 Q. Did he tell you how the settlements were going on in general ? — 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Did you not instruct Belden to make private sales to the shorts 
 at 150 or thereabouts, when Speyers and others were bidding 160? — A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were any such instructions given to anybody to your knowledge? — 
 A. No, sir. I had nothing to do with Mr. Belden in any shape or 
 form. I heard fl?om Belden afterward that he had settled gold. 
 
 Q. Did you know that all the brokers engaged by you that day in sell- 
 ing gold had instructions not to sell to Belden or Speyers ? — ^A. It was 
 H. Eep. 31 10 
 
146 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 more than likely that they would have those instriTctions, because these 
 parties were known to be rather weak, and it is customary in giving 
 orders to brokers to say, "that such and such houses are weak, and if 
 you sell to them, either call up, or else be careful." 
 
 By Mr. CoBtTRN : 
 
 Q. That was the fact to your knowledge ? — A. I gave no such order 
 myself, and I do not know of any such order having been given. I think 
 it more than likely that it was given, for the reason that two or three 
 diiys before thev had sold some gold and had not been able to take care 
 of it. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you know that when brokers, selling for your firm or their 
 agents, Willard and Carver, reported large sales to Speyers, they were 
 instructed to cancel the sales f — A. We afterward canceled the sales, 
 because Speyers failed. 
 
 Q. Did not your firm have sales to him canceled and the brokers 
 ordered to sell the gold over again before the breakdown, during the 
 period of these transactions ? — A. I do not know, of my own knowledge. 
 
 Q. Had none of your partners reported such a fact to you? — A, 
 They reported to me that they sold gold to Speyers. 
 
 Q. Did they not report to you that they had canceled that sale, and 
 had ordered the gold sold over again before the breakdown? — A. I do 
 not recollect. 
 
 Q. You do not know that they did not ? — ^A. No ; of my own know- 
 ledge, I do not know anything about it. 
 
 Q. Do you believe that they did ? — A. No; I should hardly think it. 
 They would not know until later in the day whether he failed or not; 
 and they would hardly take the risk of selling it over until the first party 
 to whom it was sold had failed. 
 
 Q. Do you know that brokers who had sold to Speyers and Belden 
 were told by your agents that they were selling back to the clique, and 
 warned not to do so 1 — A. No, sir; that is not true. 
 
 Q. You say that it was not true? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who was president of the Tenth National Bank of New York in 
 September last f — A. Mr. Dickinson, 
 
 Q. Did you have interviews with him during that month? — A. Yes; 
 I think so. 
 
 Q. Have you recently become a purchaser of the controlling interest 
 in that bank ? — A. I am a large stockholder. 
 
 Q. Did you hold at any time a majority of the stock? — A. No, sir, 
 
 Q. You or persons associated with you ? — A. Friends of mine owned 
 the majority of it. 
 
 Q, At what time did you and your friends become owners of a major- 
 ity of the stock ? — A. We bought it some time in the summer. This 
 interest was owned by the Shoe and Leather Bank, and 1 think the comp- 
 troller notified th§m that they must sell their interest, and we bought it. 
 
 Q. Did you have an arrangement with the president of that bank 
 that in an emergency the president would certify checks for you without 
 depositing curreucj' or certified checks therefor? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation of that kind with any officer of 
 that bank?— A. I may have gone there in individual instances to get 
 certifications. It is a very usual thing with houses in New York, if they 
 are going to have large certifications, to deposit securities. 
 
 Q. Y'oa did that on those certain occasions ? — A. Every day ; per- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 147 
 
 haps not with that bank, but with other banks in which we keep ac- 
 counts. , 
 
 Q. Do banks usually allow that ? — A. Certainly ; in all cases. The 
 whole business of Wall street is done in that way. 
 
 Q. Do you know that the president of that bank told Heath that he 
 would, on a certain day, certify his check for an unlimited amount, or for 
 any amount? — A. Mr. Heath wanted some certification and the bank 
 would not give it. Heath came to me, and I, believing Heath to be a 
 very honorable man, (he had done a good deal of business for me, and 
 wasdoing business for. me then,) gave him a letter to the Tenth National 
 Bank, stating that he ^ranted a certification for a certain purpose and 
 that I would guarantee it. 
 
 Q. What was the extent of that certification? — A. I do not recollect; 
 several thousands. 
 
 Q. What date was that? — A. I do not know. It was along about 
 that time. I have nothing to fix the date. 
 
 Q. Do yon recollect the appearance of some treasury examiners at 
 the Tenth National Bank during the days of the panic ? — A. I remem- 
 ber hearing of them. 
 
 'Q. When did you first hear of them? — A. On the morning of the 
 break. 
 
 Q. Did the president of that bank call at your office and tell you 
 that he could not carry out the arrangement about the certification on 
 account of those bank examiners? — A. No, sir. I had no arrangement 
 with him. He called to tell me that the bank examiners were there and 
 that the bank would not be able to certify that day. 
 
 Q. Why did h« say they would not ? — A. The bank examiners, I think 
 he said, were making an examination and therefore they would not 
 certify. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that they would not certify when actual de- 
 posits were made ? — A. Oh, yes ; I jiresume they would do that, although 
 they did not want to do it that day, because they were afraid that the 
 banks would send right in and take greenbacks. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by that ? — A. A party may go in and deposit 
 a million in certified checks and then draw a check and have it certified 
 against those deposited ; and the party receiving this certified check might 
 go to the bank and demand greenbacks for it. No bank would do that 
 under ordinary circumstances ; but there was a rumor out against the 
 Tenth National Bank that day, and I told Mr. Dickinson that they had 
 better not do any business. 
 
 Q. Are you aware of the amount of checks certified for your firm by 
 that bank during those two days — 22d and '23d of September ? — A. The 
 certifications must have been large. I do not knpw what they were ; I 
 do not know whether they got their certifications at that bank or at 
 other banks. Wherever they got them, they were large. 
 
 Q. Do you know what the total amount of certifications for your firm 
 was on both these days? — A. No, sir. They commenced in the morning 
 getting certificates, and then they made a deposit, and kept doing that 
 all day. 
 
 Q. It is in evidence before the committee that there were nearly eight 
 millions of certified checks in the Tenth National Bank for your firm 
 on that day; are you aware of that fact? — A. No, sir ; not personally. 
 
 Q. Do you know how much your deposits were in the Tenth National 
 Bank at that time ? — A. Th6 deposits must have been larger than the 
 certified checks, because we always keep a large balance. 
 
 Q. It is in evidence before the committee that your deposits were 
 
148 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 only about $300,000, and your certificates about $8,000,000 ?— A. That 
 was not so, of course. 
 
 Q. Tou tliink that could not have been so ?— A. I know it. When a 
 bank gives a certification to a broker it has to be made good by a deposit 
 before 3 o'clock. 
 
 Q. Do you knoV that the Tenth National Bank did not certify beyond 
 the amount deposited on that day ?— A. I do not know it of my own 
 knowledge, other than I have mentioned. 
 
 Q. You had no active direction of the bank?— A. Not at all. I 
 never was in the bank more than three times, I suppose. 
 
 Q. Did the presence of the bank examiners, and the stoppage of certi- 
 fication through that bank, in any way disarrange the business or plans 
 of yourself or firm during those days ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How came the bank examiners to be sent there at that time 1^-A. 
 I do not know, of my own knowledge. 
 
 Q. What is your idea as to the cause of their being there at that 
 time 1 — A. I think that the bears procured it to make a panic. They 
 were short of stock. 
 
 Q. What bears? — A. A good many houses were short. The regular 
 bank examiner was not sent. As soon as the regular bank examiner 
 came he went to the bank and said, " I know all about this bank ; it is 
 strong." As soon as he came there the panic was stopped. Otherwise, 
 I think a good many banks would have failed. 
 
 Q. Who is he"? — A. Mr. Callender. 
 
 Q. Did you know him personally ? — A. Yes, sir ; I have met him. 
 
 Q. Did you meet him during those days? — A. I met him after that. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with him in regard to these special 
 examiners from the treasury? — A. No, sir. I merely met him and 
 asked him as to the condition of the bank, whether it was perfectly 
 solvent, and whether it was safe to leave money there. He made a very 
 careful examination of it and said that it was. 
 
 Q. Did it require a large amount of currency or certified checks to 
 carry on your transactions in gold during those days ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. From what other sources beside the Tenth National Bank did you 
 draw funds for those transactions ? — A. I do not know what banks we 
 kept accounts in. I think the Continental and the Commonwealth. 
 
 Q. Did you draw from any other sources besides banks ? — A. No, sir. 
 It takes very little real money to do these transactions. 
 
 Q. What per cent, of real money does it take to transact that class of 
 business? — A. A man with .$100,000 of money and with credit can 
 transact a business of $20,000,000.' 
 
 Q. How would he use credit instead of money ? — A. He would use it 
 in the shape of certifications, and for credit in the street, and for credit 
 with the houses that he dealt with in his transactions. 
 
 Q. Certification of checks 1 — A. Yes, or they will take your checks 
 without certification. All that you pay one man you have coming back 
 from another man. 
 
 Q. If a bank believes you sound and certifies your check, it will serve 
 the same as money ? — A. Certainly. Business Cannot be done in Wall 
 street in any other way. 
 
 Q. What effect do you think it would have on business if banks were 
 restrained from certifying checks at all ? — A. So far as I am concerned 
 I think it woidd be a very good law to allow banks to certify, but to com- 
 pel them to have securities on hand. We usually do that. When we 
 have certifications, we deposit securities; but banks do not require it. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 149 
 
 By Mk. Cobuen : 
 Q. So as not to certify beyond the amount of securities? — ^A. Yes, 
 sir. The business of Wall street has been done so long in that way that it 
 is almost impossible to change it. They would have some way of getting 
 around it. They would form banks under the State -law o'n purpose to 
 do that certifying. There was a law passed last winter in relation to the 
 certification of checks, and firms now keep two accounts. They cheek 
 on one bank to deposit in another bank, and vice versa, and they use 
 these as special deposits. 
 
 By Mr. Lynch: 
 Q. K a law were passed prohibiting banks from certifying checks, 
 would it not be possible to get an order from a New York judge com- 
 pelling them to do it? — A. I do not know. I hardly think that a New 
 York judge would interfere with an act of Congress. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Did you know on Thursday night that Friday was to be break- 
 down day — settling day? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Had you any reason to believe that it would be so? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Fisk, by your direction or at your suggestion, or with 
 your knowledge, provide a number of armed men to protect your own 
 ofSco, and Heath's, WUlard's, and other oflflces of brokers during those 
 days? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know that a number of armed men did guard those offices 
 during the day? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you, while at Heath's office, hear Fisk give orders that no 
 one should be admitted? I am speaking now of the 24th. — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you know when you returned to your own office that armed 
 men walked with you; that armed men received you at your doorstep, 
 and that the office was guarded by armed men? — A. No, sir. I went 
 from Wall street to the Boston steamboat, and went from there to my 
 office all alone; that is, Fisk and myself. 
 
 Q. As soon as you ascertained that the clearing-house statement 
 would not go through, did you leave Heath's office and go to your own 
 office? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What time of the day of the 24th did you leave Wall street, and 
 where did you go? — A. It must have been in the afternoon. I left 
 there and we went over to the North Eiver side to where our boats 
 leave, and from that we went to the Erie office. 
 
 Q. What time in the afternoon did you leave Wall street? — ^A. It 
 must have been in the middle of the afternoon. 
 
 Q. Was Wm. Belden in the office of Smith, Gould & Martin that 
 afternoon? — A. Not that I liuow of. 
 
 Q. Did Belden leave with you when you went up town? — ^A. No, sir. ' 
 
 Q. Did Fisk leave with you? — ^A. Yes; we went up town together. 
 We went first, I think, up to some gentleman that we had business 
 with, and then we went right over to the steamboat landing, and from 
 there to our office. 
 
 Q. State what occurred that evening at the Opera House, at your 
 office. Did WiUard, Carver, Smith, Enos, and others visit you at the 
 Opera House that evening? — A. I do not recollect. 
 
 Q. You do not recoUect whether any of them were there? — ^A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. What did you do on Saturday? Tell the committee where you 
 were the day after the panic. — A. I was ia my office, and have been 
 
150 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 there ever since, from half-past eight in the morning till ten at night, 
 except two or three days that I have been sick. 
 
 Q. Did you spend almost all Saturday and Sunday with Lane, David 
 Dudley, Field and Sherman, Smith, Fisk, Carver, or any of those 
 men? — A. I was ia Hhe ofQce all that day, if I recollect. 
 
 Q. Were those men, or any other, with you? — A. I think it more 
 than likely that they were there. They were there almost every day. 
 I do not recollect that particular time. I know that I have been in my 
 office all the time since. 
 
 Q. State whatever transactions were had in regard to injunctions on 
 the Gold Exchange Bank, or on any brokers who had had any transac- 
 tions in the street, either for you or for others. State aU that you 
 know in regard to the procurement of injunctions or orders of court in 
 reference to these settlements. — A. As I told you, the Gold Exchange 
 Bank failed to make their clearance; and before they failed it turned 
 out that they had made advances to certain parties on their statements, 
 which very much complicated the affair. 
 
 Q. You mean that the bank had paid to some parties before fuE 
 statements came in? — ^A. Yes. These contracts were made to be set- 
 tled through the clearing-house, and as the bank had failed, they could 
 not be settled through the clearing-house. Then the only way would be 
 for these brokers to go and get the gold and deliver it; and in this way, 
 unless they were restrained by some legal process, a great many of 
 those brokers would have failed. I wanted to save them. They were 
 restrained from settling in any other way except through the clearing- 
 house, in accordance with the contracts. Then when the bank finally 
 got on its feet again, they went to work and cleared these transactions. 
 They were transactions which were to pass through the clearing-house. 
 It was a part of the contract. If you buy gold from a member of the 
 Gold Board, you being a member, the gold has not to pass, but it is to 
 be settled through the clearing-house, where no gold passes; and it 
 makes an immense difference to a firm. They can do a million dollars 
 of business through the clearing-house without requiring $50,000 at the 
 outside. I wanted to save as many as possible from failure. That was 
 the point; to keep firms from failing. 
 
 Q. What injunctions or orders did you ask to have made in pursu- 
 ance of that purpose of yours to save people from failing? — A. I think 
 there was an injunction against settling gold except through the clear- 
 ing-house. 
 
 Q. Did you ask for that injunction? — A. Not myself. 
 
 Q. Yoa had it done? — A. It was done, I think, by some brokers. I 
 do not know now who they were. 
 
 Q. Who were your attorneys? — ^A. Field, I presume — Field & Sher- 
 man; either they or Mr. Yanderpoel. 
 
 Q. Did you procure the appointment of receiver for the bank ? — A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you, or those associated with you ? — ^A. I do not know who 
 procured the receiver ; I think there were several suits started by dif- 
 ferent parties on account of the condition of the bank ; and the re- 
 ceiver was finally granted, on that of Mr. Osborn, as the first one. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Osborn your broker during the period of the panic ? — A. 
 Mr. Osborn did business for us, I think, among others. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Osborn bring that siut on the recommendation of your 
 firm, or any of them ? — A. I do not think he did on our recommenda- 
 tion ; I think Mr. Osborn talked with me about the suit. There were 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 151 
 
 rumors that other parties were moving ; it was plain that the bank 
 must go into the hands of a receiver. 
 
 Q. Were you, at any time, consulted in regard to the salary or fees 
 to be paid to the receiver, for his services 1 — A. Yes, sir ; parties ap- 
 pealed to me on both sides, to say what amount would be fair. There 
 seemed to be a difference in their views. 
 
 Q. Did you give any advice as to the sum ? — A. I declined to name 
 any sum. After they had come very near together, I advised them to 
 meet. 
 
 Q. State to the committee if you know Mr. Gorbin. — ^A. Tes, sir ; I 
 know him. 
 
 Q. How long have you known him 1 — A. Perhaps, something over a 
 year. 
 
 Q. Did you, in the month of September last, have any transactions 
 with him ? — A. I bought some gold for him ; I do not know whether it 
 was m September or August. I think in the early part of September, 
 
 Q. How much 1 — ^A. I bought several lots at different times ; I think 
 it amounted, all together, to about'two millions. • 
 
 Q. Please fix the rate. — A. It was in the thirties, I think, at differ- 
 ent prices. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Oorbin associated with you in this purchase of gold other 
 than as a person for whom you bought 1 — A. That was all. ♦ 
 
 Q. Did you have any conference with him in regard to the move- 
 ment, either in the way of seeking his advice, or giving your advice to 
 him ? — A. I used to see him frequently. 
 
 Q. On this subject ? — ^A. Yes ; and on the subject of the state of the 
 . country, the movement of the crops, and the result these things would 
 have on gold. 
 
 Q. Did you take Mr. Oorbin into your counsels in regard to your own 
 movement, as to what you were going to do ? Did he know your j)ur- 
 poses and plans? — ^A. He knew that I believed gold would advance 
 some. 
 
 Q. And that you intended to make it advance some ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Was he, iu any sense, a partner in your gold operations ? — A. No, 
 sir ; no more than that I bought this gold for him, and carried it for 
 him. 
 
 Q. How long did you carry it ? — A. I have it yet, I think ; that is my 
 impression. 
 
 Q. Then your transaction with him has not yet been closed? — A. Not 
 closed yet ; no, sir. 
 
 Q. Is it held on joint account ? — A. It is not. I bought it for him. 
 
 Q. Were these amounts the only gold you ever bought for him ? — A. 
 They are all. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any ofiftcer of the government, either in Washing- 
 ton or New York, or elsewhere, who had anything to do, directly or in- 
 directly, with the movement in gold durtug the month of September 
 last, or who was personally interested in it ? 
 
 Witness. Of my own knowledge ? 
 
 Chaieman. Yes ; of your own knowledge. 
 
 A. The Secretary of the Treasury put gold down by selling it. 
 
 Q. That is a public fact, and not an answer to my question. — ^A. I do 
 not see how I could answer that question, without explaining ; because 
 I do not know whether the question in the abstract is not too broad. 
 
 Q. Make your own answer in your own way. — ^A. I supposed it was 
 the policy of the administration to let gold work up until after the fall 
 
152 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 crops were moved ; and I had good reason to suppose that was to be 
 so, or I should never have gone into this movement. 
 
 Q. State what your reasons were.— A. During the summer I had an 
 interview with Mr. Corbin. He came to see me ; wanted to make some 
 money in some way, and asked my opinion, as one gentleman would 
 meet another. He asked me how he could make some money. I told 
 him if we were certain we were going to have a big harvest, and if the 
 government would facilitate it, I could see how it could be done. Then 
 I explained to him my theory, just as I have explained it here, that the 
 country had been over-trading ; that the figures were over a hundred 
 millions ; and if we could manage to pay that debt with what we raised 
 here, by exporting these crops, the price of gold would go up while the 
 movement was going on, and afterward drop down again; that we 
 could make money both ways by buying it then, and selling it on the 
 rise. This first interview waS about the time Mr. Van Dyke was ap- 
 pelated sub-treasurer in New York, as .nearly as I can state the date. 
 
 , By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q, How was this interview brought about; at your instance or that of 
 Mr. Corbin ? — A. It does not occur to me at this moment whether I 
 sought him or he sought me. I used to meet him occasionally. He 
 owned some real estate in Jersey City, where I was building a horse- 
 railroad, through some of our own lands, and also through his. I met 
 him frequently on that subject, and at one of these meetings this matter 
 was brought up. Now I will tell you about Mr. Corbin. Mr. Corbin is 
 a very shrewd old gentleman, much more far-seeing than the newspapers 
 give him credit for. He saw at a glance the whole case, and said that, 
 he thought it was the true platform to stand on ; that whatever the 
 government could do legitimately and fairly to facilitate the exportation 
 of breadstuffs, and produce good prices for the products of the West, 
 they ought to do. He was anxious that I should see the President, and 
 communicate to him my view of the subject. Being connected in my 
 railroad business with the matter of transportation, and knowing the 
 views of those managing the other trunk lines, he thought that I knew 
 the substance of the concentrated views of these people, and he was 
 anxious that 1 should see the President and talk with him, and he made 
 an appointment with me to do so. I went to Mr. Corbin's, and was 
 introduced to the President. 
 
 Q. At what time was this 1 — A. It was along about the time of the 
 peace jubilee in Boston. I did not know what the President's views 
 were. But we took him over on our boat, on his way to Boston. 
 
 Q. Whom do you mean when you say "we?" — A. There were several 
 gentlemen along — Mr. Fisk , Cyrus Field, and others. I mean the owners 
 of the boats. He was our guest. We had supper about nine o'clock or 
 ten o'clock going over. At this supper the question came up about the 
 state of the country, the crops, prospects ahead. Sac. The President 
 was a listener ; the other gentlemen were discussing. Some were in 
 favor of Boutwell's selling gold, and some were opposed to it. After 
 they had all interchanged their views, some one asked the President 
 what his view was. , He remarked that he thought there was a certain 
 amount of flctitiousness about the prosperity of the country, and that 
 the bubble might as well be tapped in one way as another. That was 
 about the substance of his remark. He then asked me what I thought 
 about it. I remarked that I thought if that policy was carried out, it 
 would produce great distress, and almost lead to civil war ; it would 
 produce strikes among the workmen, and the workshops, to a great 
 
GOIiD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 153 
 
 extent, would have to be closed ; the manofactories would have to stop. 
 I took the ground that the government ought to let gold alone, and let 
 it find its commercial level ; that, as a matter of fact, it ought to facili- 
 tate an upward movement of gold in the fall. The fall and winter is 
 the only time in which we have any interest in it. That was all that 
 occurred at that time. We supposed from that conversation that the 
 President was a contractionist. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Oorbin in this party ? — ^A. Oh, no. 
 
 Q. Please state who were the members of the party. — A. There were 
 at the table, I think, the President, Mr. Fisk, myself, Mr. Simonds the 
 general manager of the boat, William H. Marston, Cyrus W. Field, and 
 a few other gentlemen, whose names do not occur to me at this moment. 
 I remember Mr. Marston being along, because the next morning I 
 was out early at the telegraph of&ce, and found him there telegraphing 
 to his broker to sell out his stocks; so that he had the same impression 
 that I had. Then the President traveled about, meeting, of course, a 
 good many business men ; and I afterwards met him at Mr. Corbin's 
 again. 
 
 Q. At what time ? — ^A. If I had my testimony before the grand jury, 
 I could give the date of the conversation more definitely than I now can. 
 It was after he had returned from Saratoga, and when he was on his 
 way to or from attending General EawMns's funeral, that I met him the 
 second time, at Mr. Corbin's. Mr. Corbin invited me to come round in 
 the evening. He had, in the mean time, become very much interested 
 in my theory on this subject. I had explained my views to him, and 
 at that time I think it had become a sort of monomania with him. I 
 think any idea of making money for himself had ceased to weigh with 
 him. He was very anxious that I should come round, I did so, and 
 talked with Mr. Corbia and the President. 
 
 Q. Who was present at this conversation ? — ^A. No one, except Mr. 
 Corbin, the President, and myself. The President had changed his views, 
 as I, at once discovered. The President said then that he was satisfied 
 the country had a very bountiful harvest ; that there was to be a large 
 surplus; that unless we could find a market abroad for that surplus it 
 would put down prices here ; and he remarked that the government would ■ 
 do nothing during the faU months of the year to put down the price of 
 gold or make money tight. On the contrary, they would do everything 
 they could to facilitate the movement of breadstuffs. He seemed to 
 take a very deep interest in it ; it seemed to have been a matter of 
 study with him. I was surprised at the clearness with which he seemed 
 to comprehend the whole question. I knew what I felt in my business. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Did he say he would use his influence in that way? — A. He did 
 not speak about his influence. The expression of his views was upon 
 the broad platform, that he seemed to be satisfied as to what the true 
 interests of the country were, and that he intended, as far as he could, 
 to pursue such a course as would bring these results. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 Q. He spoke of the govemment,notof himself?— A. He spoke of the 
 government. The government was buying bonds aU the time, and I 
 did not see how they could keep up their purchases without selling 
 gold, and, of course, very naturally suggested that. . In reply to that ho 
 said the revenue was beyond their expectations ; that they were issuing 
 
154 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 fractional currency; that the issne was to go on tintil fifty millions had 
 been put in circulation, and it was supposed that would give the govern- 
 ment ample means to keep up the purchase of bonds, without sellmg 
 gold. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Have you given substantially all that occurred at that interview ?— 
 A. Yes, I met him, I think, once after that, at the time he was going to 
 Pennsylvania, to Corry. He wanted to go to Corry, and I arranged to 
 give him a train on the Erie road. He wished also to return by the 
 Philadelphia and Erie, and I went down to see General Diven, and be- 
 tween us we arranged the trip for him. When we were about going away 
 Mr. Corbin wanted me to step back a moment. I went back and had 
 another conversation with the President, while General Diven waited 
 for me in front. I staid there perhaps half an hour. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Oorbin present during this conversation ? — A. Tes. 
 
 Q. How long was this before the fluctuation or panic occurred?— A. I 
 am very poor at fixing dates. I remember his telling Mr. Corbin that 
 Boutwell had given an order to sell, and that he, being at Washington, 
 saw of it or heard of it, and countermanded the order. This interview 
 must have been after his return to Kew York from the funeral of General 
 iiawlins, because it was on his return from that funeral that he told Mr. 
 Corbin that he had countermanded the order; and when he got back he 
 found a letter from Secretary Boutwell, saying that he fuUy acquiesced 
 in the President's views. I supposed that the President explained his 
 views as to the state of the country to Mr. Boutwell, and that Mr. Bout- 
 well acquiesced in that statement. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. You are holding some gold for Mr. Oorbin at this time? — A. Tes, 
 T have some gold for him. 
 
 Q. Was your purchase of gold for Mr. Corbin previous to any of these 
 interviews ? — ^A. My purchase for him was after the first interview and 
 before the second. The interview on the way to Boston was a wet 
 blanket ; the other interview was more satisfactory. I did not buy any 
 gold for Mr. Corbin until I was assured from the President that the 
 government would not do anything to put down the price of gold; and 
 it may, therefore, have been after the second interview, and before the 
 third, that I bought gold for Mr. Corbin. 
 
 Q. State what occurred at the third interview. — A. The third inter- 
 view was just a repetition of the second. 
 
 Q. Was any person present at these interviews with the President ex- 
 cept Mr. Corbin ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You stated generally that the third interview was a repetition of 
 the second. Let me ask you whether all these interviews were concern- 
 ing a public policy, or whether any conversation took place concerning 
 a private policy and private movements ? — ^A. liiTothing ever occurred in 
 any of these interviews that did not impress me that the President was 
 a very pure, high-minded man ; that if he was satisfied what was the 
 best thing, that was what he would do. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Was'there anything said or intimated at any of these interviews 
 to the President, or in the President's hearing, that would have led him 
 to suppose any private purpose, or speculation, or gain, was sought to 
 be reached through these interviews, so far as you know ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. On the contrary, do you say there was not anything said of that 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 155 
 
 nature 1 — A. I should say there was not. The reason Mr. Corbin asked 
 me to go there was this. He said to me: "Tou have large interests 
 here; you have large railroad and steamboat, interests in several dif- 
 ferent lines; you have more interest in the matter of transportation than 
 any other man in the country; and I am anxious that the President 
 should come in contact with practical men and talk with them. That 
 was the excuse he gave for asking me to go. All this is preliminary to 
 answering your general question. Then the President went west after 
 this third interview. Of course I knew there were parties in New York 
 who were short of gold. I heard there was to be a dinner party to be 
 gotten up to Secretary Boutwell, and that certain parties were to be 
 invited. I felt solicitous as to what the effect might be on the Secre- 
 tary. That dinner wAs given, I think, while the President was in Penn- 
 sylvania on this trip. 
 
 Q. Was it very soon after your last interview at Mr. Corbin's house 1— 
 A. Yes. I went to see Mr. Corbin about it; he said he did not think 
 it possible, the President had so thoroughly made up his mind, or had 
 so thoroughly marked out his policy that nothing could change him ; he 
 knew the man so well. He knew that when he had arrived at his con- 
 clusions after a good deal of deliberation and examination, he would not 
 change them. 1 suggested to him that the Secretary might sell without 
 consultiQg him. He said in reply to that, that the President had written 
 a letter before departing on his trip and left it with him, and that he 
 had left it with General Butterfleld to deliver immediately to the Secre- 
 tary on his arrival in New York, giving the President's views. But that 
 did not satisfy me. I asked him if he knew what was in the letter. He 
 said he did not ; but he said he was very certain as to what was in it, 
 because the President stopped in the middle of a conversation, in which 
 he had expressed his views, and wrote the letter. That was Mr. Corbin's 
 answer to me ; and Butterfleld afterward stated to me that he delivered 
 the letter. He (Butterfleld) did not know what was in it, although he 
 supposed it to be the same thing that Corbin did. The next morning, I 
 think it was, I went round again to Mr. Corbin's. I used to see him 
 every day then, every morning and night. He told me he did not know 
 what pressure might be brought, and that he had prepared a letter to 
 the President, and if 1 would send him a special messenger he would 
 send it to the President. He read to me the letter, or rather, he read 
 extracts from it. He went on and said, in the letter, that in his judg- 
 ment there were two parties; one party that represented a great deal of 
 money and a great deal of wealth, having many prominent men it, in 
 the city, who were short of gold ; that they would naturally like the 
 government to come in and help them ; that there was another party, 
 long of gold, who would try to induce the government to keep its hands 
 off. He said he thought the true interests of the government were in 
 the direction of the opinions he had so often expressed. He went on, 
 page after page, to describe the effects of low prices and high prices 
 upon the products of the country. That letter he sent to the President. 
 I did not furnish the messenger, but Mr. Fisk did. 
 
 By Mr. Lynch : 
 
 Q. Where was the President at that time ? — A. He was stopping in 
 the western part of Pennsylvania. 
 
 Q. Why was it necessary to send it by a messenger 1 — A. In order 
 that it might certainly reach him. He was back some ways from Pitts- 
 burg, and some ways from any line of raHroad, and it might have been 
 delayed in the mail ; for that reason it was sent by a special messenger. 
 
156 GOLD PANIC INYESTIGATION. 
 
 By Mr. Packek : 
 
 Q. About what time was this letter written ?— A. Some three, four, 
 or five days before the 23d. 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. How near the time of this dinuer you have spoken of, to be given 
 to the Secretary 1 — A. It was either just previous or just about the 
 time. It seems to me it was a day or two after the dinner. The mes- 
 senger took the letter and delivered it. That is all I know of that. 
 
 Q. Who was the messenger ? — A. The messenger was a man by the 
 name of Chapin ; W. O., I think, were his initials. 
 
 By Mr. PACKER : , 
 
 Q. Where does he live ? — A. He lives in Xew York. 
 
 Q. If there was an answer, state what you know about it. — ^A. I only 
 know that Mr. Corbin showed me a letter that Mrs. Grant wrote to Mrs, 
 Corbiu in reply. 
 
 Q. At that time ? — A. Yes ; they sent it by mail. 
 
 Q. Ifc did not come by Mr. Qhapin ? — A. 'No, sir. 
 
 Q. Mr. Corbin showed you that letter ? — A. He showed me some ex- 
 tracts from it. 
 
 By Mr. Lynch : 
 
 Q. Did he show you the letter itself? — A. Yes ; he did. 
 
 Q. Did you I'ead it ? — A. There was quite a portion of it about family 
 matters, about the children, &c. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that Mr. Corbin showed you a letter written 
 by Mrs. Grant to his wife ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 (i. Did you see the signature ? Do you know it was a letter written 
 by Mrs. Grant to Mrs. Corbin ? — A. I saw the enveloiie, post-marked at 
 the place where they were stopping. It was in a lady's handwriting. 
 
 Q. Do you know that it was a letter addressed by Mrs. Grant to Mrs. 
 Corbin ? — A. No, sir ; I do not know that it was. 
 
 By Mr. JoNES : 
 Q. Did Mr. Corbin tell you that it was ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. Did ybu see the signature of the letter ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Ltnch : 
 
 Q. Did you not say that you did not know it was her letter ?— A. I 
 did not know the signature. 
 
 Q. How was it signed? — A. It was signed by Mrs. Grant's given 
 name. 
 
 Q. What was that ? — A. I do not know that. 
 
 Q. Addressed to whom ? — A. I think it commenced, ''Dear Sister," 
 or "Dear Jennie," and was addressed to Mrs. Corbin. I had never seen 
 the handwriting before, and could not swear that it was not a forgery. 
 
 Q. I understand you to say there was a certain portion of the letter that 
 you did not read. I want to ask whether you could have seen the sig- 
 nature and the address without reading the contents of the letter "?— 
 A. A part of it was not designed for my reading. 
 
 Q. Was any part of it concealed from you t— A. I took the letter in 
 my hands, and of course I had to glance at the whole of it. He called 
 my attention to the particular parts. 
 
 Q. Then you had an opportunity to read the whole of it? A. I cotdd 
 
 have read the whole. I saw that it was about family matters, and he 
 called my attention to particular portions. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 157 
 
 ' By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. What was in the letter, in the portions you read 1 — A. The sub- 
 stance of it was this : She says, " Tell your hvisband," or "tell Mr. Cor- 
 bin, that my husband is very much annoyed by your speculations. Tou 
 must close them as quick as you can." That was the substance. 
 
 Q. Was that all you saw.? — A. That was all — the substance of it. 
 There were some intimations about Cuba; but that was all that inter- 
 ested me. 
 
 Q. Was this previous to the panic, or during the time 1 — A. It was 
 just previous to the panic ; two or three days before the Secretary began 
 to sell gold. This letter was written from Pennsylvania, and the dtty 
 the President arrived in Washington the Secretary had advertised to 
 sell gold. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any purchase of gold by any gold broker for Mrs. 
 Grant ? — A. Not to my Imowledge. 
 
 Q. Why did Mr. Corbin show you that letter ? — A. Mr. Corbin wanted 
 me to take his gold off his hands. I had had some governments, carry- 
 ing for him. He sold them out at a loss of fifty thousand dollars. I 
 think I had, probably, two millions of governments for Mr. Corbin 
 about the time the government was going to commence purchases. He 
 brought them then, of course supposing they would go up on his pur- 
 chases. He figured up that his gold, at the price it then stood, if sold, 
 would give him about one hundred and fifty thousand dollars profit, and 
 he wanted me to take his gold off his hands. He figured that, deducting 
 the fifty thousand dollars loss on the governments, it would leave a profit 
 of a hundred thousan d dollars on both transactions. I think I had already 
 sold half a million of his gold. He wanted me to give him a check for 
 a hundred thousand dollars, and just take the gold off his hands. I 
 told him I did not want to do that, but 1 would give him a check for a 
 hundred thousand on account ; that I did not want to throw his gold on 
 the market at that time. The check never passed. I saw by that let- 
 ter that he did not want to buy any more gold. 
 
 Q. He was disposed, then, to follow the advice of the letter, close up 
 his account, and get out of the speculation ? — ^A. Tes, sir. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Q. How do you know that the letter from Mrs. Grant to Mrs. Corbin 
 was in response to Mr. Oorbin's letter to the President ? — A. Mr. Corbin 
 told me so. 
 
 Q. Did the letter acknowledge itself to be a response to his let- 
 ter to the President? — A. So far as this expression went I consider that 
 it did. 
 
 Q. Was there anything in the letter that Mr. Corbin sent to the Presi- 
 dent in regard to his speculations in gold ? — A. I think Chapin took 
 two letters, one from Mr. Corbin to the President, and one from Mrs. 
 Corbin to Mrs. Grant. 
 
 Q. But the letter to the President, I understood you to say, or the ■ 
 substance of it, was simply devoted, so far as you saw it, to discussing 
 general questions — ^the general poMcy of the government— and that the 
 letter of Mrs. Grant to Mrs. Corbin spoke about speculations of Mr. 
 Corbin. How could that be a response to his letter to the President ? — 
 A. That is a point that has occurred to me. 
 
 Q. What do you say as to that point ? — ^A. I think the papers had 
 used Mr. Corbin's name, and that the President probably thought he 
 had some interest ; indeed, he might have told him. 
 
 Q. Do you know that the President had ever been informed by Mr. 
 
158 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Corbin, by yourself, or by any other person, that Mr. Corbin was Specu- 
 lating in gold? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you believe he had been so informed when he was in New 
 York at the time of any of the interviews he had with you or Mr. Cor- 
 bin? — A. There never was a word passed between the President and 
 myself, or in my hearing, tbat would lead me to suppose the President 
 knew anything about his movements. But this letter of Mrs. Grant 
 might look as though he did. 
 
 • By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Corbin ever say to you that he had told the President, or 
 intimated to him, that he was speculating in gold? — A. NOj sir. 
 
 Q. Can you state the exact time when this letter was written? — A. It 
 was written, I think, the day Mr. Chapiu got there, and mailed the next 
 day. 
 
 By the Chaikman : 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Chapin bring back any message or any letter ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there anything in the letter of Mrs. Grant that acknowledged 
 the receipt of Mr. Corbin's letter ? — A, No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there any reference to Mr. Chapin in the letter ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know that there ever was any answer by the President, or 
 by his authority, to the letter Mr. Chapin delivered to him ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Did Mr. Corbin tell you what the object was in writing the letter 
 that he sent by Mr. Chapin? — A. I have already stated that it was 
 feared the Secretary would sell gold, without the President's sanction. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. I understand yoii to say that Mr. Corbin's alleged motive in writ- 
 ing the letter was, that he feared the Secretary might sell without the 
 President's knowledge or sanction, and he therefore wrote, urging on 
 him the general policy that had been talked of before ? — A. Yes. , 
 
 Q. Have you completed all the statement you think it necessary to 
 make preliminary to a full answer to the general question propounded 
 you a long time ago ? — A. After the 24th — I think it was Saturday 
 morning after the Friday of the panic — I saw Mr. Corbin. He came 
 round to the ofiice, and he was much agitated ; seemed very much dis- 
 appointed, and proposed that he and his wife should go to Washington 
 and get the order revoked. I said to him I thought it looked as though 
 he had been rather assuming on the President ; that he had- assumed to 
 know what the President would do, and had counted without his- host. 
 He said that he and his wife would go down Saturday night to Wash- 
 ington, for the purpose, as he said, of getting the orc^er that had been 
 issued to sell revoked. The' order was advertised Friday, T think, to 
 sell on the following Monday. He came back on Monday without hav- 
 ing accomplished his purioose. 
 
 Q. Did you see him on his return? — ^A. I think I did not see him; I 
 think Mr. Fisk saw him on his return. ' 
 
 Q. Had you any communication from him as to the result of his visit 
 here? — A. I think I have not seen Mr. Corbin since his return. I think 
 Mr. Fisk saw him. I might possibly have seen him once. On his re- 
 turn, I think, he sent for me ; that I was out, and that Mr. Fisk went 
 there. 
 
 By Mr. Ltnch : 
 
 Q. In reference to this letter, let me ask you whether it was a family 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 159 
 
 letter on family affairs, in which this matter was incidentally alluded to, 
 referring to transactions that were known to the President ? — A. Yes ; 
 that was it. 
 
 By Mr. JONBS : 
 
 Q. What did Mr. Corbin say to you when he showed you this letter of 
 Mrs. Grant to Mrs. Corbin ; what was his object in showing it to you, if 
 it was simply a family matter, about family affairs 1 — A. All the excuse 
 which he gave me was this : He said that the President probably thought 
 he had some interest in governments or gold, and that he wanted to get 
 out. He, therefore, showed me this letter. " Now," said he, " I want to 
 write a letter to the President which will reach him when he gets to 
 Washington;" and he showed me a letter which he had prepared, and 
 which commenced by saying that he had not a dollar of interest in gold 
 or governments, and then went on to say, " I tell you now, as a man 
 who has studied this matter impartially, that if you give an order to 
 sell gold you will commit a great mistake." Having seen this last re- 
 mark I did not bite at it. 
 
 Q. Did not bite at what ? — A. I did not want to take the gold off his 
 hands. 
 
 Q. And you understood the object of Mr. Corbin, in showing you the 
 letter, was to induce you to take his gold off his hands, and help him 
 out with his speculations ? — ^A. Yes, sir ; I told him I \<rould give him 
 the $100,000 on account, and that when I sold, if he liked, I would give 
 him the average of my sales. I did not feel like buying any gold of him 
 then. 
 
 Q. How did Mr. Corbin come out of the whole transation in his specu- 
 lations 1 — A. He has not come out ; he has been sick ever since. Ht 
 says he does not know anything about any transactions. 
 
 Q. He says so to you ? — A. He has not said so to me, for I do not think 
 I have seen him since the morning of his return from Washington. 
 
 Q. If his accounts were now settled with you, would he stand a loser 
 or winner? — A. I could not say. If I give him the average of sales, or if 
 he took his gold up now, it would pay him a loss, of course. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Can you now give a definite answer to the ' general question 
 asked ? — A, I know nothing further than I have stated. I will state, 
 however, that I am satisfied that the President has never had any con- 
 nection, directly or indirectly, with any of the movements that have 
 been made. 
 
 Q. After your full statement of these transactions in detail, and of 
 your interviews with the President, have you any reason to suppose 
 that the President was cognizant, himself, of any private speculations 
 in gold, or that he was aware of doing anything, on his own part, that 
 would help any private speculation ; or that he was consulted by any 
 parties to any private speculation in regard to that movement ? — A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. And you have no reason to suppose that he had ? — A. No, sir ; on 
 the contrary, everything that I have seen has satisfied me that he is a 
 very high-minded, pure man. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Or that any of his family had any private speculation ? — ^A. I do 
 not think they had any knowledge, unless this letter I have mentioned 
 would indicate it. 
 
160 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Are you acquainted with General Butterfleld, late assistant treas- 
 urer iu New York'?— A. I have some acquaintance with mm. 
 
 Q. Did you have any business transactions with him during tne montn 
 of September ? — A. I bought some gold for him. i j. * a i. 
 
 Q. When?— A. It was the first part of September or last ot August. 
 It was about the time I bought some for Mr. Corbin. ^ ,, . , ., 
 
 Q. How much did you buy for Mr. Butterfleld ?— A. 1 thmk it was 
 a million and a half. • t -j 
 
 Q. At what rate 1— A. It was in the thirties; about the price 1 paid 
 for Mr. Corbin's gold. . 
 
 Q. Did you seek an interview with him, or he with you,.preluninary 
 to this purchase?— A. I could not say as to that. He used to come to 
 see me, and I sometimes went to see him. 
 
 Q. You were accustomed to converse on the financial policy and the 
 movements in gold ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he request you to buy this gold fbr him? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he give you any instructions as to the amount you were to pur- 
 chase for him, and the rate at which you were to purchase it ?— A. The 
 first order he gave me was an order to buy. I gave a part of that gold to 
 Mr. Corbin. Gold went down some from that point, and when I saw the 
 general I advised him to -buy some more of the cheap gold for the pur- 
 pose of averaging it so as to reduce the loss on the first. In my sug- 
 gestion he acquiesced, and I did buy more gold for him. 
 
 Q. Did these purchases together make a million and a half, or was the 
 first purchase a million and a half ?— A. The two made a million and a 
 half. 
 
 Q. Did you make any other purchase for him ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you settled for that transaction ?— A. No, sir. There is a 
 difference of opinion between us. He says he never gave any order. 
 
 Q. You can swear, without any doubt of the truth, that he did give 
 the order ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you state the time and place where he gave you the order ?— 
 A. Yes, sir. It was in his office at the sub-treasury, either the last of 
 August or the fore part of September, I should say. One or the other 
 mouths. 
 
 Q. Was any person present besides you two ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he give the order in writing ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. State the words he used in giving the order as nearly as you can 
 remember ? — A. He asked me what I thought of gold. I told him I 
 thought the tendency of gold would be up. He said he thought so too. 
 He believed the policy of the government was pretty well settled, and 
 he thought gold would work up. He asked me to go in and buy some 
 for him. 
 
 Q. Fix the date as near as you can ? — A. I cannot fix the date any 
 nearer. I did purchase for him. 
 
 Q. At what rate ? — A. That was about 37. On referring to the list of 
 quotations for gold I can now say that this purchase was made earlier 
 than I suggested. It was either in the fore part of August or the last of 
 July. The gold was bought at about 37, and afterward declined. I 
 should say the purchase must have been in July. The second purchase, 
 made to average the price, was some time afterward. 
 
 Q. You had a second interview with General Butterfield after gold, 
 had fallen, in which you advised him to buy more gold in order to 
 average it. Where was that interview held ? — A. I do not know where 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 161 
 
 that was. I sometimes met him at the club ; sometimes I saw him at his 
 house, and sometimes at mine. 
 
 Q. You met him very frequently on those days ? — A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. What did he say in giving you that second order ; give us the 
 words as near as you can remember ? — A. It was that he would leave it 
 discretionary with me. 
 
 Q. Did he fix the amount that you were to buy of cheap gold ? — A. 
 No, sir; I bought about the same amount. It was a sort of rule in Wall 
 street, if you buy an article which goes down on your hands you are to 
 buy a similar amount, and that averages, the other. 
 
 Q. Did you have any other communication with him in regard to these 
 two transactions at any other time previous to the breakdown ? — A. I 
 went to see him on information I had that something was going to be 
 done, and to see whether he knew anything about it. 
 
 Q. When was that? — A. That was the morning of the breakdown. 
 
 Q. What did he say? — A. He said he had heard nothing. 
 
 Q. At what hour was that 1 — A. That was quite early in the morning. 
 A little while afterward I heard that Seligman, whom I knew was inti- 
 mate with Butterfleld, was selling gold. I was satisfied he would not be 
 selling unless he knew what he was about, so I sent another message 
 there at a later period on Friday. 
 
 Q. Before noon ? — ^A. Yes, before noon. He sent word back that he 
 had received nothing. A little while afterward I sent up again, and then 
 he returned answer that he had a message. 
 
 Q. Had the message then been made public ? — A. Yes, sir. He then 
 sent me a copy of the message from the Secretary to sell gold. This 
 must have been a little past twelve. Gold was then down to 35. 
 
 Q. Did he send any messages to you during the day ? — ^A. No. 
 
 Q. Do you know of a message having been sent to you, or to Mr. Fisk, 
 or to any of your partners, during that day, from General Butterfleld, 
 putting this question: "Has bottom been reached?" and of an answer 
 being sent out from your oflce, " Bottom has been reached ?" — A. I do 
 not. I was not in my ofiice that day. 
 
 Q. Wherever you were, do you know of his having sent any kind of 
 message to any person doing business in the street as a broker other 
 than you have described ? — ^A. No, sir ; that was the only communica- 
 tion that I knew anything about. 
 
 Q. General Butterfleld's answer came to you in writing ? — A. It did. 
 
 Q. Is it in existence yet ? — A. I think not. 
 
 Q. What did you do with it?— A. It was just on a little sheet of paper, 
 which was torn up, I think. Mr. Fisk saw it. 
 
 Q. How is it then that yon made the answer you did, that aside from 
 what you had said in regard to the President and Secretary you knew of 
 no government officer having any interest in this gold movement ? — A. 
 General Butterfleld had no interest in the movement. He had this 
 interest in gold before the movement. 
 
 Q. You were carrying it for him ? — A. I carried it for him, but it had 
 no effect on the movement. It was purchased long before. 
 
 By Mr. Jones: 
 Q. Did General Butterfleld intimate to you that he knew the policy of 
 the government would be favorable to this speculation in gold, or any- 
 thing like that? — A. Yes; he said the views and policy of the govern- 
 ment were, that they would not sell any gold until after the crops had 
 been sent to market. 
 
 H. Eep. 31 11 
 
162 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 Q. What was his authority for making that statement ? — A.' I suppose 
 that he got it from Mr. Oorbin or from the Secretary of the Treasury. 
 He dined with the Secretary, 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Do you know that was so ? — A. He told me of conversations that 
 occurred in dining with him. I know nothing of my own knowledge. 
 
 Q. Do you know of General Butteriield having purchased any gold 
 through anybody else except ;^ourself, in September '>. — A. He told me 
 when the Secretary was in New York, at the time of this dinner, that he 
 took him up to A. T. Stewart's ; that he said to A. T. Stewart : " Here are 
 parties pressing the Secretary on both sides ; one pressing the Secretary 
 to sell, and the other not to sell. Now, you are a high-minded, disinter- 
 ested person. I should like to know your opinion as to what the govern- 
 ment ought to do." Mr. Stewart replied : " I am interested, and I am 
 interested in having gold come down, but I, nevertheless, unhesitatingly 
 advise the government not to sell, not to go into the market as a specu- 
 lator." General Butterfleld related to me that this conversation occurred 
 in his presence. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any conversation with General Butterfleld in 
 regard to purchasing stock of the Tenth National Bank ? — A. Yes, sir; 
 1 think I did. I think that was one of the first times that I damein con- 
 tact with him. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Do you say that General Butterfleld requested you to buy that 
 gold for him, and asked you to let Corbin have a part of it ? — A. No. I 
 bought the gold, and after it was bought I divided it and gave Corbin a 
 part. 
 
 Q. And that was notat the suggestion of General Butterfleld 1 — A. Oh, 
 no. 
 
 By Mr. Lynch : 
 
 Q. Was there any definite amount fixed upon by General Butterfleld 
 in the order he gave you to buy ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. He simply said you were generally to buy gold for him ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Is that the usual way to give an order to buy gold without fixing 
 the amount ? — A. It is not usual. I suppose they had a better opinion 
 of me then than they probably have had since, and thought it was pretty 
 safe to depend upon my judgment. 
 
 Q. Did you understand that an unlimited order was given you to buy 
 gold for him in that way, or did you understand that it was to be left 
 to your discretion, and that there was to be a division between the par- 
 ties ? — A. Oh, no ; that was no matter of agreement. 
 
 Q. How could you understand that anj- such order was given to buy 
 gold without any definite amount, unless you were interested in it ?— A. 
 They had confidence in me, I suppose, that when I was going to sell mine 
 I would theirs. 
 
 Q. And they left an unlimited order with you, having no interest in 
 the order whatever ?— A. They left it unlimited to me. The amount 
 specified by Gener^il Butterfleld was two millions. I did not buy thpt 
 amount. 
 
 By Mr. Cobtjrn : 
 
 Q. But you advised him that you had purchased a certain amount; 
 did he then accept or reject that amount ? — A. He accepted it. Of course 
 if there was a loss he was bound to pay it. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 163 
 
 By Mr. BuECHAED : 
 Q. Didn't you first say there was no limit in the amount you were to 
 buy ? — A. There was no limit when, we talked about the average. At 
 first the order was for two millions. 
 
 By Mr. Lynch : 
 
 Q. Then you alter your statement to that extent ? — A. There was no 
 limit made in our talk about averaging. If I said otherwise I wiU change 
 it. The original order, I think, was for two millions. 
 
 Q. Did eithter Corbin or Butterfleld give any margins in this pur- 
 chase? — A. No. ' 
 
 Q. Tell the committee why it was that you bought and carried that 
 gold for these two men without their putting up any margin. Is that 
 exactly business, to buy and carry for two gentlemen, with whom you 
 are not very well tujquainted, a considerable amount of gold for a con- 
 siderable length of time without margins or settlement in any way? — 
 A. No ; that is not on business principles. 
 
 Q. On what principle did you do it?-— A. I did it as a friendly thing. 
 
 Q. Was it to interest them in establishing the policy of the country? — 
 A. I supposed that what interest they had would be thrown in that way. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. And yon considered that an anchor thrown to the windward, did 
 you ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were Butterfield and Corbin on intimate terms to your knowl- 
 edge? — A. Oh, yes; Corbin got Butterfleld's appointment for him. They 
 had been intimate for years, I think he told me he was intimate with 
 Butterfleld's father. 
 
 Q. State what occm-red at the interview you had with General Butter- 
 field in regard to the stock of the Tenth National Bank ? — A. After I 
 was asked to become interested in the purchase of that stock, they 
 wanted to make up a party to buy it. General Butterfleld's name was 
 connected with it in some way, I do not now recollect who, but some one 
 connected his name with the purchase in making up the party; but 
 when we came to respond and pay for it, he did not respond, and others 
 took his interest. 
 
 Q. Did he agree to take a part of the stock? — A. It was arranged that 
 he was to take a portion of it. 
 
 Q. What portion ?— ^A. I do not know that any amount was fixed. It 
 was decided that each one should take what he wanted of it. 
 
 Q. Was he to take it on the same terms as the others? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do you know why he did not take his share? — A. I suppose he 
 may not have had the money convenient. 
 
 Q. Did you make purchases in stocks for General Butterfield during 
 the month of September? — A. No, sir; I never had any stock transac- 
 tions with him, and no other transaction in gold. 
 
 Q. You have stated in your testimony that you had messages going 
 back and forth from General Butterfleld in regard to the Treasury orders 
 on that Friday of the panic. Had you been in the habit of having such 
 communications with him before that in regard to orders from the 
 Treasury? — A. No, sir; I never heard of any orders beBig given. TJie 
 orders were always given from here and telegraphed' to the papers. 
 
 Q. Did General Butterfleld before that day communicate to you any 
 correspondence or dispatches that he had received from the Treasury 
 Department? — A. I remember none. 
 
164 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 By Mr. LynoH : 
 
 Q. Was it ever designed that this transaction -with General Butter- 
 field should be settled, or was it intended that it should be a quidprg 
 quo for information that you were to obtain through him'?— A. No, sir; 
 I did not consider his information as of any value whatever. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that he denied giving you these orders to pur- 
 chase gold, and ignored the whole transaction ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And Mr, Oorbin the same thing?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What is the general effect upon the gold market of large exports 
 of grain, provisions, cotton, or any product of the country ? Is not the 
 general eifect to cause a decline in the price of gold ? — A. That would 
 be the ultimate result. It might not have that immediate effect. The 
 result of a large export would be to throw the balance of trade in our 
 favor, and draw gold from foreign countries, and the effect of that would 
 be to put gold down. 
 
 Q. Was not the attempt to put up gold at a season when these ex- 
 ports were expected to be so large, really an attempt tp put up the price 
 of gold, when its natural tendency was downward? — A. Gold in the 
 month of September, for the last thi-ee years, has ranged from about 41 
 to 45 or 46, and there was no reason why the same rates should not be 
 reached this year. 
 
 Q. Suppose those who thought as you did had made no effort to put 
 gold ujj, was it not tending, and do you not think it would have gone 
 down to some degree instead of going up, during that very month ? — A. 
 My idea is this : If gold had gone down, and there had been no exports, 
 some time in the winter it would have gone up to a pretty high rate, un- 
 less the government stopped it. 
 
 Q. Would it have gone down but for this movement ? — A. Somewhat ; 
 but I do not think it would have gone beyond thirty. Gold is kept down 
 artificially now. 
 
 Q. You stated something in another part of your testimony concern- 
 ing an editorial that was being prepared. Did you have anything to do 
 with the preparation ofthat editorial; and if so, what? — A. Mr. Corbin 
 prepared an editorial, submitted it to me, and wanted my views of it. 
 He said it embodied the policy of the administration. I looked it over 
 very carefully, and it agreed with my views. Then he wanted me to get it 
 in the paper. Mr. Bigelow was then the editor of the Times. I gave 
 it to James McHenry, and he had it put in. 
 
 Q. Did it appear as it was prepared, or as you saw it ? — A. It was 
 changed slightly, but not substantially. This article said that the 
 government would not sell gold while the crops were being moved. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect what the date of that was? — A. It must have 
 been in August. It was when gold was 30-something. 
 
 Q. What was your relation to Mr. Fisk in regard to the gold move- 
 ment ?— A. Mr. Pisk did not know anything about the movement at all 
 until gold had become very active. He then supposed that I was in it, 
 and asked me to tell him ho w I stood. He then went into the movement, 
 bat our interests were entirely separate. He had his own gold and I 
 had mine. 
 
 Q. You did not share each others' gains and losses in the matter? — ^A. 
 We had some little gold together. 
 
 Q. Didn't he settle your gold, and you his?— A. Not except some gold 
 of Mr. Heath. 
 
 Q. Why did you mutually arrange to settle Heath's gold ? — A. Mr. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 165 
 
 Heath was a man who had done business for both of us, and when the 
 question came up affecting Mi". Heath's interest, we were either of us 
 ready to aid him, probably to our last dollar. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. How did you get out of this ? — ^A. I think I have communicated 
 very freely to the committee aU that I know in regard to this movement 
 that can be of any general interest, and, unless the question is pressed, 
 I would rather not answer it. 
 
 By Mr. Bxjechabd : 
 Q. Was gold sold by the government previous to Monday ? — ^A. The 
 advertisement was out on Friday. It was sold on Monday. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the news of the fact that the Treasury was 
 going to sell reached anybody in New York before it was oflcially an- 
 nounced ■? — A. I guess everybody knew it pretty neayly. 
 
 Q. Do you know the fact that it did get to New York and was known 
 before the official announcement of it 1 — ^A. I only know it from evi- 
 dences of observation which are very difficult to describe. 
 
 Q. Eepeating the same question, do you say yes or no ? — ^A. I should 
 not want to say either very positively. 
 
 Q. From your knowledge of the transactions of that day, do you be- 
 lieve that it was known in New York that the Secretary of the Treasury 
 had ordered the sale of gold before the official announcement of the 
 fact? — A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. How long before ? — A. I think it was known an hour in advance. 
 
 Q. What made gold break down ? — A. It broke down because I was 
 selling, and had been selling all the morning. 
 
 Q. Did the Treasury order cause gold to break down ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did it break before the order came ? — ^A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. Did it break before the order was known to be issued ? — ^A. No. 
 The announcement of the order had no effect on gold at aU. I had 
 been selling all the morning, and I expected the order would come. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. How did you become satisfied in your own mind that the govern- 
 ment was going to sell gold ■? — A. An editorial came out in the New 
 York Times that morning, which went on to state that parties interested 
 in gold used very freely the name of the highest potentate in the land, 
 his brother-in-law, the Secretary of the Treasury, &c. I understood 
 that that editorial was written for the purpose of being telegraphed to 
 Washington to frighten the officials down here, and that it would prob- 
 ably have the effect it did. I didn't want any further information to 
 come to me anyhow. That editorial led me to believe that the govern- 
 ment would sell, and I acted accordingly ; I sold all the morning. 
 
 Q. Did you have any other means of information ? — ^A. No, sir ; not 
 that I remember. 
 
 Q. Anything to corroborate that belief in addition to the editorial you 
 speak of? — ^A. No. There were oceans of telegrams being sent all the 
 time to everybody here. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Did you see Mr. Corbin during the two days' panic ? — A. I was 
 down town during the day-time. I saw him at night and in the morn- 
 ing. In the day-time he came around to my office continually. There 
 
166 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 are indicators iu my office showing what is being done in Wall street. 
 Under ordinary circumstances I seldom go down town. The indicators 
 iu my private office show how things are going. There is a gentleman 
 in town who was with him in my office on the 23d or 24th, and I do not 
 know but oh both days. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether or not the telegraph wires between Wash- 
 ington and New York were tapped during any of those days ?— A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any reason to believe that they were, and if so, what?— 
 A. I have no reason to believe it. 
 
 Q. Do you believe it ? — A. That would be a difficult question to an- 
 swer. For instance, I have a wire in my office that connects with all 
 parts of the country. 
 
 Q. I mean surreptitiously tapped by unauthorized parties ? — ^A. I do 
 not know. I did not care anything particularly what the Secretary was 
 doing. If he had wanted to sell gold while I was buying, I should 
 have bought his gold. He gave his advertisement while I was selling, 
 and when I had pretty nearly sold out. 
 
 Q. Was communication by telegraph between your office and Wash- 
 ington shut off on that day while these telegrams were passing 
 through?— A. 1 was not in my office. I suppose not. I suppose they 
 were open as usual. 
 
 Q. Does not the Secretary have a wire of his own ? — A. I presume 
 he has. 
 
 Q. What I ask is, whether you believe that the Secretary's wire was 
 tapped by any other than the Secretary's authority during that day ?— 
 A. I do not think the information came that way. 
 
 Q. Please answer my question. — A. I do not know that the Secretary 
 has a wire. No such thing took place to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Tou stated that you believed the news reached New York one 
 hour before it was officially published. What reason have you for that 
 belief? — A. My reason for stating that belief was, that parties who wk-e 
 generally very well posted Were selling gold. 
 
 Q. You were selling gold, and therefore shall we say that you had 
 news an hour in advance ? — A. I considered that I pretty nearly had it. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that any parties in New York had any other 
 news in advance than such as you had ? Prom your general knowledge 
 of the facts, do you think any other person had any earlier news of this 
 order than you had ?— A. Yes, I do. 
 
 Q. What persons other than the officer of the sub-treasury who di- 
 rectly receives it ? — A. I think it was known. I do not want to call the 
 names of houses that we are doing business with all the time. 
 
 Q. Do you know that it was known ? — A. No, I do not. It was sim- 
 ply an opinion founded ui)on what I saw. 
 
 By Mr. Lynch : 
 
 Q. You spoke of an editorial in the Times ; was that an editorial or 
 a special dispatch from Washington ? — ^A. It was an editorial. 
 
 Q. Did you suppose an editorial in the Times would foreshadow the 
 policy of the administration in Washington ? — A. This editorial was 
 written in a style that if an officer of the government read it he would 
 naturally say, " Unless I do sell gold they will say I am interested." 
 
 By Mr. BuECHAED : 
 Q. Did you think it was an aTmouncement of the policy that wonld 
 be pursued, or that it would influence the administration? — A. That k, 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 167 
 
 would influence the administration ; that it would say to the adminis- 
 tratipn, " If you do not sell you are in the movement." 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Q. Tou said a little while ago that an hour before the order came 
 from Washington you felt that you almost knew of the order. Tell us 
 how. — A. A man who is liable to rapid thinking very often arrives at 
 conclusions without being able to tell the process, and yet he is sat- 
 isfied the conclusions are correct. 
 
 " Q. Tell us, as far as it is possible for words to describe, how you 
 knew, or Ojlmost knew, this fact an hour beforehand. — A. I. hear of a 
 great deal that happens. I can only say that it is one of those conclu- 
 sions that a man sometimes arrives at intuitively, that are correct in 
 themselves, and yet if you undertake to give the evidences by which 
 they were reached you could not tell how it was done. 
 
 Q. But you had such evidence that you felt in your bones that your 
 conclusion was correct. — A. I did* 
 
 Q. Did you have any doubt about it 1 — ^A. Not a particle. 
 
 By Mr. Cobuen : 
 
 Q. Did you have any word or message from anybody on the sub- 
 ject ? — A. Only those I have mentioned. 
 
 Q. Was a part of the ground of your conclusion the behavior of 
 certain parties in S'ew York, whom you supposed knew or would have 
 more chance of knowing the secrets of the Treasury than yourself ?—^A. 
 That was the only ground. 
 
 Q. Who were those parties ? — A. I think, as I told you, that Selig- 
 man was selling, and knowing his relations with G-eneral Butterfield, 
 and the fact that Butterfleld's answer to me was not very frank, was one 
 thing J and then having intimations, as I told you, that this editorial 
 was being telegraphed off to a great many prominent men, and tele- 
 graphed to the government, convinced me that it was time to seU. I 
 knew there were multitudes of telegrams going to Washington, and I 
 had no difficulty in arriving at a conclusion as to what I should do. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. Were you informed, or did you believe, that anybody in New York 
 ,was advised of the purport of that official telegram before it was pub- 
 lished? — A. I had no advice other than I have stated. 
 
 Q. Did you believe it ? — A. I believed it, certainly. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Q. What person do you believe had that knowledge ? — A. I believe 
 that one of the persons who had it was the one I have named, ]Mr. Sel- 
 igman. 
 
 Q. Anybody else ? — A. No other name occurs to me. 
 
 By Mr. Lynch : 
 
 Q. State whether you know of anybody connected with the telegraph 
 giving out this information which they received in advance of its being 
 commanicated to the parties to whom it was sent. — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any information being obtained in that way ? — A. 
 No, sir. I should think that parties would be most likely to get it 
 from the Secretary, or from his clerk who has to copy the letter, or 
 something of that kind. Telegrams of this description, I take it, arc 
 sent in cipher. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 t^. Have you any reason to believe or do you know that the Secretary 
 
168 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 had any sign which he communicated to General Butterfield in New 
 York, indicating what his orders were to be in the future ?— A. ITo, sir. 
 The witness subsequently communicated the following note : 
 
 "Willard's Hotel, Washington, D. C, January 23, 1870. 
 Dear Sir : Upon reflection since my examination, I think I omitted to 8ay that I 
 paid Mr. A. E. Corbin twenty-five thousand dollars ; the check I have in my possee- 
 sion, and will send copy should you desire it. 
 Very truly, your most obedient servant, 
 
 JAY GOULD. 
 Hon. J. A. Garfield. 
 
 The committee having requested the original check to be furnished, it 
 was transmitted with the remark that " This check was deposited to the 
 credit of A. E. Corbin in Bank of America." 
 
 The check is as follows : 
 
 Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., 11 Broad street. 
 No. 5148.] " New York, September 6, 1869. 
 
 National Bank of the Commonwealth, pay to the order of Jay Gould twenty-five 
 thousand dollars. 
 
 $25,000. ^ SMITH, GOULD, MAETIN & CO. 
 
 Indorsed across the face : Certified^by the National Bank of the Commonwealth. 
 
 [stamp.] 
 
 Indorsed on the back, " Jay Gould." 
 
 Washington, D. C, Jmiuary 22, 1870. 
 James Fisk, jr., sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State your residence, place of business, and occupation.— 
 Answer. I live at 313 West Twenty- third street, New York. My busi- 
 ness is railroading, steamboating, and I suppose I may add speculating. 
 
 Q. Were you familiar with the course of gold during the last summer 
 and fan 1 — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you particularly familiar with the course of gold during the 
 week in September commonly known as the gold panic week ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Were you engaged in either buying, selling, or loaning gold 
 through yourself or others during these days? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. With whom were you associated ? — ^A. With no one. I think that 
 all the interests I had were personal. That question, however, may 
 admit of some explanation on my part. I could say that no one was 
 interested with me personally, or I might convey a clearer impression 
 to the committee of my exact position by going into an explanation. 
 At the outset, I may say that the transactions of Mr. Gould and myself 
 are joint, and that our usual custom is to have no one else with us. At 
 the time he started in to purchase gold, if I recollect right, he was with 
 •some other parties, perhaps with Woodward and Kimber, in the street. 
 They spoke to me about it, and he said, I think, something to me about 
 buying some gold. I replied that I did not believe in it ; that I believed 
 the pressure was against us on the street. At that time I was called 
 away for three or four days ; and when I came back, he had started in 
 with Messrs. Kimber and Woodward, as I understood, and had com- 
 menced buying at about 37 or 38. You have had Mr. Gould before this 
 committee, and have probably ascertained that he is a rather peculiar 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 169 
 
 man. Gold having settled down to 35, and I not having cared to touch 
 it, he was a little sensitive on the subject, feeling as if he would rather 
 take his losses without saying anything about it. It went along in that 
 way for three or four weeks, when one day he said to me, "Don't you 
 think gold has got to the bottom?" I replied, that I did not see the 
 profit in buying gold unless you have got into a position where you can 
 command the market. He then said he had bought quite a large amount 
 of gold, and I judged from his conversation that he wanted me to go 
 into the movement and help strengthen the market. Upon that I went 
 into the market and bought. I should say that was about the IJjifch or 
 10th of September. I bought at that time about seven or eight mMions, 
 1 think. As I said, our custom has been, in all transactions with which 
 we have been connected, to make up a settlement and divide the results, 
 wliatever they are. This, I think, is the only case in which that was not 
 done. It so happened that I started out with Heath & Co. The trans- 
 actions of Smith, Gould & Martin, owing to the excitement that 
 occurred, I think have never been fully settled. At any rate, Mr. Gould 
 and I have never passed a word as to whether I was to be interested in 
 his profits or losses, and there wasuounderstandingthat I was or was not. 
 When the settlement is made in full, if there should be a loss, I should 
 be very glad to help him to bear it, and if there are any profits I should 
 not say no to a proposition to divide them with him ; that is not my 
 nature. I came into this movement simply to strengthen the market. 
 I came in individually, and placed my own margins. There was no 
 understanding between us any more than a general understainding that 
 we did business together. 
 
 Q. Did you buy gold through any other house than that of Heath & 
 Co.? — A. Some of my gold must have gone into the house of Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Co., and perhaps Carver may have had some ; I think 
 it probable that he did. 
 
 Q. How much did you buy, or order to be bought, during the week 
 of the panic ? — A. I should think the aggregate of gold that I bought 
 lor myself during that week was, perhaps,.ten or twelve millions. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Corbin ?^A. Yes, sir. 
 . Q. Did you transact any business for him during these days ? — A. I 
 did not. 
 
 Q. Did he have any interest in your operations so far as you know 1 — 
 A. Not in mine. I know of an interest that he had in the market from 
 information which I derived from him, and from information which I 
 derived from Mr. Gould. 
 
 Q. State what occurred at an interview in Mr. Heath's ofiice between 
 you and Albert Speyers on the 23d of September. — ^A. That I can 
 perhaps give more clearly by referring to memoranda which I have 
 here. Let me say that the firm of William Belden & Co. was com- 
 posed of William Belden, George Hooker, and Andrew McKinley. Mr. 
 Hooker married a sister of mine, and I had seen a good deal of Mr. 
 Belden personally, on Wall street, for three or four years. At one 
 time we were in business together. At the time I started in to buy 
 gold, say on the 16th or 17th of September, I think Mr. Belden was 
 absent; at least I do not think I saw him until the Tuesday, if I 
 remember right, before what was called black Friday. On the afternoon 
 before Friday — ^that is, on Thursday afternoon — Mr. Gould and myself 
 went down to Mr. Belden's back office. We went there because it was a 
 little more out of the way than Wall street. It is on Broadway. I there 
 gave some orders to Mr. Heath, and to Smith, GouW , & Martin, 
 brokers, that afternoon. That was the first interview, I , think, I had 
 
170 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 with Mr. Belden in regard to gold. That afternoon when I came out, Mr. 
 Belden says, " I will meet you at the Opera House to-night." You must 
 bear in mind that we had no idea then of the position we were drifting 
 into. I had an idea that it might result in a transaction of fifteen or 
 twenty millions of gold, which was not a very large amount of gold for 
 us to carry. I met Mr. Belden at the Opera House that night at 8 o'clock, 
 He said to me, " evidently you have got a corner on this gold market, and 
 I want to buy some gold to-morrow. I can just as well carry it as riot. 
 I wish you would tell me what to do." I replied to him, " Mr. Belden, the 
 greaftujotto on which we have acted is to do our own business our- 
 selv^,.and then, if anything happens, there are no lame ducks to take 
 care of but ourselves. I do not see that any harm is likely to come of 
 it if you want to buy gold, and if you want to give some orders I will 
 attend to them." He said, "I will bring a broker to you, and you can 
 give him the orders." I said, " If you want me to do anything for you, 
 come to me in the morning." The next morning he gave me this order : 
 
 Septembek 24. 
 Deak Sib: I hereby authorize you to order the purchase and sale of gold on my 
 account during this day to the extent you may deem advisable, and to report the same 
 to me as early as possible. It is to be understood that the profits of such order are to 
 belong entirely to me, and I will, of course, bear any losses resulting. 
 Yours, 
 
 WILLIAM BELDEN. 
 James Fisk, jr. 
 
 That is a copy of the original. 
 
 Q. You know this to be a true copy? — A. Yes, sir; I have the origi- 
 nal in New York. In the morning when we came down town we went 
 to Mr. Heath's back office. I should think about half-past ten Mr. Bel- 
 den came into the offlce and said, " I want to introduce to you Mr, Spey- 
 ers. Mr, Speyers will receive from you any orders for purchases or 
 sales of gold on my account." I think there were two or three parties 
 in the room who heard this conversation. Two of my own parties, 
 Kingsley and Hicks, and two or three persons whom I had taken down 
 to keep people out of the room, were within hearing. 
 
 Q. State how large a room this was. — A. About half the size of this. 
 
 Q. Was this conversation carried on loud enough to be heard by any- 
 body in the room ? — A. Certainly ; everything could be heard as plain 
 as we could be heard in a room half the size of this room. I think 
 gold was then about 43. I said to Mr. Speyers while Mr. Belden stood 
 there, that Smith, Gould & Martin had just started for the market 
 through Mr. Willard ; that we were buying gold up to 45. He started 
 out. I should think he was gone half an hour; he then came back and 
 said he did not get any at that price. By that time gold had jumped 
 to 50, He came back and said Smith, Gould & Martin's brokers 
 are buying gold at 50, I said yes, and he started right down again. 
 He came in, stating that he had bought about seven or eight millions. 
 It was then about half-past eleven. During this time gold had been 
 up to 63 and 64, and gone back to 50, He said he had bought gold at 60, 
 He was in a condition of great excitement. He said he had bought 
 gold at 60 when it was selling for 50. I said to him, " You have gone 
 crazy." " Well," he said, "I do not know where I am." I told him he 
 had better keep quiet. As I afterward understood, Mr. Belden, seeing 
 the position he was in, told him to go into the market and buy gold up 
 to 60 and hold it there. That was about the last time I saw Mr, Speyers 
 for two or three weeks, I think he was in the ofiftce some two or three 
 times that morning. He went back to the market, and some of our 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 171 
 
 people told me he was on the curbstone buying at 60 when gold was 
 selling for 34. I have been in Wall street for a long time, and been in 
 the haJbit of seeing people very much excited. I have seen respectable 
 people out in the streets with their hats off, seemingly regardless of 
 everything ; but my opinion of Speyers that afternoon was that he was 
 as crazy as a loon. The excitement then had got so high that not de- 
 siring to stay there any longer, Mr. Gould, Mr. Heath, and myself went 
 out by a side door, took a carriage and drove up to our ofllce, and that 
 was the whole of our transactions for this day. 
 
 Q. What was your object in putting up gold that day ? — A. "VJe had 
 no object at all. We had intended to put it up to 45. That was the 
 point we had decided upon. 
 
 Q. Please state in your own way what your object was in pursuing 
 the policy you did ? — A. Before my starting in for the purchase of this 
 gold, and as far back as the time when General Grant went to Boston 
 on the occasion of the peace jubilee, which was in June, he went over 
 on one of our boats, and we went with him. 
 
 We have employed on the Erie road some twenty thousand men, all 
 told ; a stock of eight hundred locomotives, with the other equipments 
 of the road on a corresponding scale. I am aware of no way in which 
 these men and equipments can be used to advantage unless the crops 
 come forward from the West. The actual amount of transportation due 
 us on the moving of the crops would be about three and a half million 
 dollars. Now if these crops should be held over and com6 on late in 
 the sj>ring, they would come right on the transportation of the mercan- 
 tile people, when we could not carry the whole of them, and they would 
 seek other channels, canals, &c., while we would lose the benefit; or, 
 again, if they came forward very early in the fall, it would be at a time 
 when we were doing a large business in package goods for the mer- 
 chants, which pays better remunerative prices than produce. Our policy, 
 therefore, is to encourage the crops to move forward at a time when 
 other trade is quiet. I have been with the Erie road now some three 
 years, and during my connection with it in the falls of 1866, 1867, and 
 1868, while the crops have been coming forward, gold has ranged from 
 41 to 45, and our freights were full all the time. When we began to 
 figure at the precise position in which we were in regard to these 
 freights for the last fall, we found that unless our western produce 
 moved eastward early, the foreign market would be supplied from the 
 Mediterranean, the Black Sea, and all that section of country. We 
 had lying upon our table advices of three hundred sail of vessels 
 with wheat, on its way from these waters. Our cars were at that time 
 doing a fair package business, but we were doing none of this produce 
 trade at all. It was of vital consequence that our large railroad stock 
 and steamers running from Buffalo for us should get this trade started. 
 If we could have this produce trade of three and a half millions, with 
 all the facilities we had for carrying it, about a couple of millions would 
 be clear money, which in carrying on our road is too large an item to let 
 go if we could help it. 
 
 So that on our passage over to Boston with General Grant, we en- 
 deavored to ascertain what his position in regard to the finances was. 
 We went down to supper about nine o'clock, intending while we were 
 there to liave this thing pretty thoroughly talked up, and, if possible, 
 to relieve him from any idea of putting the price of gold down, for if 
 his policy was such as to permit gold to go down to twenty -five, our 
 transportation would have been snapped right up. We talked there 
 until about half-past twelve. When we first commenced to talk, I 
 
172 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 could see that he was for returning to a specie basis. I remember the 
 remark he made that we might as well tap the bubble at once as at 
 any other time, saying that it had got to come to that. That was in the 
 first part of the conversation. He entered into the conversation with 
 a good deal of spirit, and I made up my mind that he was individually 
 paying a good deal of attention to the finances, which he would to a 
 certain extent control, so far as the action of the government was con- 
 cerned. That being his idea, it looked as if it was the policy which 
 we should have to work up to in the faU. I know that when we got to 
 Boston, Mr. Gould and myself made up our minds that the prospect 
 did not look promising. 
 
 When we got back to New York the next thing we did was to write 
 to Mr, Boutwell something in regard to the matter. I think it was some- 
 time in August that General Grant started to go to Newport. I then 
 went down to see him. I had seen him before, but not feeling as 
 thoroughly acquainted as I desired for this purpose, I took a letter of 
 introduction from Mr. Gould, in which it was written that there were 
 three hundred sail of vessels then on the Mediterranean from the Black 
 Sea, with grain to supply the Liverpool market. Gold was then about 
 34. If it continued at that price we had very little chance of carrying 
 forward the crop during the fall. I know that we felt very nervous abour. 
 it. I talked with General Grant on the subject, and endeavored, as far 
 as I could, to convince him that his policy was one that would only 
 bring destruction on us all. He then asked me when we should have 
 an interview, and we agreed upon the time. He said " During that time 
 I will see Mr. Boutwell, or have him there." Now, then, gold had con 
 tinued to go down until it sold for 130 or 132, though when the crops 
 began to move forward I knew that gold would work up again without 
 the necessity of buying to bring it up. I did not like the looks of 
 affairs then. It was upon that theory that Mr. Gould had commenced 
 to purchase gold. I told him that J did not think the skies looked clear 
 enough to go into that operation, but he started to buy gold with a firm 
 conviction that there was a short interest in the market, and I have no 
 other idea than that it was his conviction that he could put ujj gold to 45, 
 if he felt any sort of confidence that he would not come into competition 
 with gold sold by the government. The theory was that it was safe to 
 buy gold for the purpose of putting up the price, to enable us to secure 
 this transportation for our road, and in the course of the operation we 
 would get rid of our gold without loss ; but the thing began to look 
 scary to me, and I did not go into the transaction until I considered that 
 Mr. Gould was undertaking to carry a pretty heavy burden, when I said 
 that of course my entire resources were at his disposal. There was never 
 any understanding regarding there being any corner in gold, nor had I 
 ever had a word with any human being, except Mr. Corbin, on this sub- 
 ject. Mr. Gould started in again on the 17th of September, and seeing 
 his position I said, " I will join you." During the week before there had 
 been a little coldness between us, which did not often exist, for the reason 
 that he had taken upon himself a pretty heavy load, which he did not 
 want me to share, and, therefore, he was not in the habit of saying any- 
 thing about it. I remember the morning I started in that I illustrated 
 his position by the story of a man who goes out on a spring morning to 
 yoke his oxen. Putting the great elm bow on the neck of Brindle, and 
 holding the other end of the yoke, he undertakes, by main force, to carry 
 the yoke and draw Brindle over until he can yoke Star, and I described 
 Mr. Gould as being in pretty much the same condition. He had a very 
 heavy load to carry. He would not have invited me to help him, but I 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 173 
 
 coucluded I would help him to draw Brindle over. In the first place, 
 however, I wanted to ascertain exactly how he stood, and I said to him : 
 " How much gold have you got V I said to him that it was my firm 
 conviction that if we bought gold up the government would unload their 
 goldontous. Said he, "That is all fixed. Isupposeyouhave seen nothing 
 to convince you of that fact." General Grant was then in the city. It 
 has always been our policy never to mix in politics unless it is in our 
 business, but Mr. Gould said to me that morning : " This matter is all 
 fixed up ; Butterfield is all right ; Gorbin has got Butterfleld all right, 
 and Oorbin has got Grantfixed all right." That, in his opinion, they were 
 interested together. That was a point I had not taken into considera- 
 tion. I did presume that Mr. Corbin had prevailed upon General Grant 
 to make him believe that 45 was the proper point at which to carry oif 
 this crop. Up to that time I did not believe that General Grant, or any- 
 body connected with him, had any interest in the movement whatever, 
 but it startled me when it was suggested that Grant was in this move- 
 ment, and I determined to go right around and see Corbin. I had known 
 him before through a son-in-law of his, by the name of Catherwood, 
 wh*om I had met in railroading, but I said to Mr. Gould : "You give 
 me a letter to him, so that he will talk confidentially with me." He did 
 so and I went to see Mr. Oorbin. When I met him he talked very shy 
 about the matter at first, but finally came right out and told me that 
 Mrs. Grant had an interest ; that five hundred thousand of gold had 
 been taken by Mr. Gould at 31 and 32, which had been sold at ,37; that 
 Mr. Corbin held for himself about two millions of gold, five hundred 
 thousand of which was for Mrs. Grant, and five hundred thousand for 
 Porter. 
 
 Q. Was that General Porter ? — A. I did not ask whether he was a 
 general or not ; I remember the name of Porter. This was given out 
 very slow. He let out just as fast as I did. When he found that Mr. 
 Gould had told me about the same thing, I said: "Now, I have had 
 nothing to do with your transactions in one way or the other ; but you 
 can make your pathway clear and straight by emptying it all out to me, 
 because Mr. Gould and myself stand together. We have no secrets 
 from each other. We have embarked in a scheme that looks like one of 
 large magnitude. Mr. Gould has lost, as the thing stands now, and it 
 looks as if it might be pretty serious business before getting it straight 
 again. The whole success depends on whether the government will un- 
 load onto us or not." He says ; " You need not have the least fear.". I 
 said : " I want to know whether what Mr. Gould has told me is true. I 
 want to know whether you have sent this $25,000 to Washington, as he 
 states." He then told me that he had sent it ; that Mr. Gould had sold 
 $500,000 of gold belonging to Mrs. Grant, which cost 33, for 37, or some- 
 thing in that neighborhood, leaving a balance in her favor of about 
 $27,000, and that a check for $25,000 had been sent. Said I, " Mr. Cor- 
 bin, what can you show me that goes still further than your talk ? " " O, 
 well," the old man said, "I cannot show you anything ; but," said he, 
 " this is all right." He talked freely, and repeated, " I tell you it is all 
 right." When I went away from there I made up my mind that Corbin 
 had told me the truth. Whether he had taken money or not — whether 
 he had lied about that part of it or not — I made up my mind that, either 
 through speculation or for the good of the country in moving these crops, 
 the sale of gold which was to have taken place within two or three weeks, 
 in October, was stopped for October, either upon one basis or the other ; 
 either from motives of personal interest or for the best welfare of the 
 country. I came out with that conclusion. In the evening Mr. Oorbin 
 
174 GOLD PANIC INVESriGATION. 
 
 came round to the Opera House, and I had" another inter\iew with him 
 there. 
 
 Q. Fix that date, as near as you can.— A. I should say, if it did not 
 occur on Sunday, that it was about the 21st of September. It was either 
 Monday or Tuesday night. We talked that evening, and Mr. Gould 
 went home with him that night. In the morning, when Mr. Gould came 
 down, I was over the river, and came into the office about 1 o'clock in 
 the afternoon, but had no intercourse with M^. Gould until about i 
 o'clock. We were then doing our business on Wall street through the 
 telegraph from our office to Wall street. I asked Mr. Gould if he had 
 seen Mr. Corbin that morning. He said : " Yes, everything is all right. 
 If Butterfleld gives any information we will get it in time to get out. I 
 am to see Corbin again to night. I think I can give you some more in- 
 formation to-night, after I see him." It seems that when he started to 
 go home that night he stopped in at Gorbin's house, when he went up 
 or when he came back ; anyhow, he came into the office about 8 o'clock 
 in the evening. Says he to me, "Who is the most confidential man you 
 have got?" I said: "It all depends upon what his mission is." He 
 says : " I want a man who is a quick traveler ; says nothing, but passes 
 right along." Said I, " I will give you Ghapin." I sent for Chapin. I 
 said to him, " Chapin, I want you to-morrow morning to be at Gorbin's 
 house at half-past six. You will there receive a letter from him directed 
 to General Grant, at Washington, Pennsylvania. I want you to leave 
 on the eight-o'clock train, traveling as fast as you can, and not stop 
 until you lay that letter in his hands. Wait until he reads the letter. 
 Drive directly from there to the nearest telegraph office (it seems that 
 Washington is several miles from the railroads) and telegraph back to 
 me whether the letter is satisfactory, if you can do so without convey- 
 ing that intelligence to anybody else." I then told Chapin, " You are 
 boarding at a private house ; I will send another man to call you, so that 
 j'ou will positively not be late." My brother-in-law went up in the morn- 
 ing, saw that Chapin was called, took him in a carriage at half-past six, 
 and went to Gorbin's house ; rang the bell ; Corbin came down, and, as 
 Chapin says, delivered him the letter. He took it, went over the Penn- 
 sylvania Central to Pittsburg, left the railroad the next night and- drove 
 to Washington, arriving there about half-past seven in the morning, I 
 should judge. He sent in his card immediately, saying that he was a 
 special messenger from Mr. Corbin. General Grant came in, opened the 
 letter and read it, and said, as he was going out, " You wait a few min- 
 utes." General Grant went out, and in a few minutes returned and said, 
 " AU right." Chapin drove to the nearest telegraph office, according to 
 instructions, and we got a telegram about 1 o'clock, " Delivered. All 
 right." 
 
 I then had one evening another interview with Corbin. We were 
 feeling a little nervous about the position we were then in. I said to 
 Corbin, I hoped everything was all for the best. But, said I, " If we 
 should miss — if the government should sell this gold, it would certainly 
 be a serious matter." Corbin then said to me, " I want you to talk with 
 my wife." Mrs. Corbin came into the room. I had been introduced to 
 Mrs. Corbin before. The thing had gone 'beyond the matter of mere 
 courtesy with anybody I met there. That was the first time I had seen 
 her in reference to this transaction. We sat down and talked the mat- 
 ter over quite fully. I did not cover any matters up. I took it for 
 granted that they had bought gold, and that they had as much interest 
 in the matter as I had. Bue made this remark : " I know there will be 
 no gold sold by the government; I am quite positive there will be no 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 175 
 
 gold sold ; for tMs is. a chance of a lifetime for us ; you need not have 
 any uneasiness whatever." 
 
 i had a phantom ahead of, me all the time that this real gold would 
 come out. I was well aware that we had bought all the gold there was 
 in New York, and had no fear about that coming back on us. The gold 
 we were then buying in Wall street was phantom gold, and could give 
 us no trouble. 
 
 I started away on the strength of that conversation, and I think it 
 was on the morning of* Thursday we left our carriage back of the post- 
 office, and when we came up to get into the carriage, as I came along up 
 street, we stopped right below Duncan & Shearman's offlce. Mr. Gould 
 says to me, " OldCorbin feels troubled and nervous about some gold; he 
 wants a hundred thousand dollars ;" and said Mr. Gould to me, " What 
 do you think of it?" Said I, " If he wants a hundred thousand dollars 
 to.feed out to parties in interest, he had better have it." I think this 
 was on the afternoon of Thursday. Mr. Gould asked if that didn't look 
 as if there might be some blow up. I said, " If he wants that money to 
 deal out to people, and it will help to strengthen our position in regard 
 to this gold, we will give him one hundred or two hundred thousand." 
 " Well," said he, " do as you please." I told him I would go and get 
 the money ; and I went immediately to Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., got 
 a check for a hundred thousand dollars, and brought it and gave it to 
 Mr. Gould in the carriage. Mr. Gould said he would stop there when 
 he went home that night and give it to him. 
 
 I was not, aware but what Mr. Corbin had received that hundred 
 thousand doUars until the afternoon of Friday, after the blow up, when 
 I said to Mr. Gould, " I'll bedamned if that old scoundrel shall have that 
 hundred thousand dollars ; I wiU stop the payment of that check." Mr. 
 Gould replied, " He has not.got it ; I have got it." I told him I was glad of 
 that ; there was that much saved, anyhow, Mr. Gould said Corbin had 
 the twenty-five thousand dollar check, but he (Gould) had the hundred 
 thousand dollar one in his pocket. 
 
 I went down to the neighborhood of Wall street Friday morning, 
 and the history of that morning you. know. When I got back to our 
 of&ce you can imagine I was in no enviable state of mind, and the 
 .moment I got up street that afternoon I started right round to old Cor- 
 bin's to rake him out. I went into the room, and sent word that Mr. 
 Fisk wanted to see him in the dining-room. I was too mad to say any- 
 thing civil, and when he came into the room, said I, " You damned old 
 scoundrel, do you know what has happened f This was, of course, after 
 everything had blown up. Said I, " Do you know what you have done 
 here, you and your people ? " He began to wring his hands, and " Oh," 
 he says, " this is a, horrible position ; are you ruined ?" I said I didn't 
 know whether I was or not ; and I asked him again if }ie knew what 
 had happened. He had been crying, and said he had just heard; that 
 he had been sure everything was all right; but that something had 
 occurred entirely different from what he had anticipated. Said I, " That 
 don't amount to anything ; we know that gold ought not to be at 31, 
 and that it would not be but for such performances as you have had 
 this last week ; you knew damned well it would not if you had not 
 failed." I knew that somebody had run a saw right into us, and said I, 
 " This whole damned thing has turned out just as I told you it would; 
 I considered the whole party a pack of cowards;" and I expected that ■ 
 when we came to clear our hands they would sock it right into us. I 
 said to him, " I don't know whether you have lied or not, and I don't 
 know what ought to be done with you." 
 
176 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATIOy. 
 
 He was on the other side of the table, weeping and wailing, and I was 
 gnashing my teeth. " Now," he says, " you must quiet yourself." I 
 told him I didn't want to be quiet ; I had no desire to ever be quiet 
 again, and probably never should be quiet again. He says, " But, my 
 dear sir, you will lose your reason." Says I, " Speyers has already lost 
 his reason ; reason has gone out of everybody but me." I continued, 
 "Now what are you going to do; you have got us into this thing, 
 and what are you going to do to get out of it?" He says, " I don't 
 know ; I wUI go and get my wife." I said, " Get her down here." The 
 soft talk was all over. He went upstairs and they returned, " tottling" 
 into the room, looking older than Stephen Hopkins. His wife and he 
 both looked like death. He was tottling just like that. (Illustrated by 
 a trembling movement of the body.) 
 
 Finally I said, " Here is the position of the matter. We are forty 
 miles down the Delaware, and we don't know where we are. I don't 
 know but we may be rich ; but it looks devilish like as if we were poor. You 
 have got us into this scrape, and now what is going to be done ?" She 
 said she could not think this had been done with the President's con- 
 sent. She thought Boutwell had done it in violation of the strict or- 
 ders of the President not to sell gold. Said I, " That don't help matters 
 at all. I can't tell you where we stand." We had sold large amounts 
 of gold, which I was afraid would not go out. "Now, Mr. Corbin, what 
 do you mean to do ?" The old man straightened up in front of the table 
 and said, " I will go down to Washington, and lay it at their door ; I will 
 fathom this thing." Said I, " When will you go — to-nightf "No," he 
 said, " they had both been abed all day, and could not go that night ; 
 but," said he, " we will be in Washington Sunday morning; we will ride 
 all night Saturday night, and go to the Executive Mansion Sunday morn- 
 ing. You stand right still until Monday morning, and we will stop 
 all sales of gold. We will mend up the matter; bind up the wounds, 
 and all will be right." 
 
 I had made up my mind that Corbin's influence was pretty well 
 played out, but I thought that the further off" he was the happier I 
 shou.ld be, and so I recommended him to go. He came down Saturday 
 night, as I afterward heard, and came back Sunday night, spending the 
 day at the mansion. I have never seen him from that day to this. Of 
 course matters took such a turn that it was no use. It was each man 
 drag out his own corpse. Get out of it as weU as you can. 
 
 This is a statement as nearly as I can give you of this gold operation. 
 The whole movement was based upon a desire on our part to employ 
 our men, and work our power, getting the surplus crops moved east, 
 and receiving for ourselves that portion of the transportation properly 
 belonging to our road. That was the beginning of the movement, and 
 the further opexations were based upon a promise of what Corbin said 
 the government would do. Whether Mr. Corbin has lied or not regard- 
 ing Mrs. Grant's having half a million dollars of this gold, and about 
 Porter's being interested in half a million of gold, I do not know; I 
 have no reason to believe that he did. 
 
 Q. What Porter do you refer to ?— A. I think he said General Porter; 
 I know it was the Porter who was with General Grant, in Washington, 
 Pennsylvania. I heard my man say that Porter had an interest in half 
 a million of dollars in this gold. You have heard of the interest that 
 •Speyers had in this gold. We had nothing to do with Speyers that 
 day. Whatever transactions he had were with Belden. My transac- 
 tions were done through Heath & Co., and were merely to support the 
 gold market, without any understanding that there was to be any cor- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 177 
 
 ner ; witliout any understanding whatever, of any name or nature, fur- 
 ther than to assist Mr. Gould in this transaction. He had started out 
 with the view of giving work for our men, and our power during 
 the fall and winter. 
 
 To show you where we stand to-day : before I started to come to 
 Washington yesterday morning, I asked Mr. Vanderbilt to come to our 
 office, for the purpose of seeing whether he was situated as we were. 
 I said to him, "We are going down to Washington, and we wish to see 
 whether you are situated as we are ; and perhaps it may have some 
 weight upon our future position, so far as this ^affair is concerned. I 
 would like to know whether, representing as you are a line as large as 
 ours, you are employing as many men as you have been heretofore. Our 
 men are on three-quarter time ; we are ten days short in our payments, 
 and our side-tracks are filled with empty cars. We yesterday took out 
 one hundred and twelve cars, against three hundred and seventy-five 
 last year; and," said I, "where do you stand?" He replied, "Ihave 
 just ordered extra side-tracks to put empty cars on. Our men are on 
 three-quarter time, and so far as our matters are concerned, they are 
 just like yours." 
 
 The Atlantic and Great Western road, about which I presume the 
 chairman of this committee knows something, took in $480,000 for the 
 month of December of last year. This year they received $248,000 for 
 the same month. Eailroading to-day is not furnishing more money 
 than is required to pay for the labor and the oil used. We are not 
 situated differently to-day from any other road in that respect. There 
 never was such prostration as has settled over these thirty-five or forty 
 millions of people — as rests on us all here. I am now speaking to illus- 
 trate where this man, Grant, has brought us to. 
 
 Q. Tou are speaking of the policy of the government 1 — A. I am 
 speaking of this man. Grant, who has brought us to this position. You 
 have brought Mr. Gould and myself here to testify, and I am testifying 
 what I know about these transactions ; about the position we have been 
 placed in. As the representative of the largest corporation on the 
 American continent, I say to you that we are to-day starving to death.. 
 
 (Mr. Burchard suggested that the witness was traveling out of the 
 sphere of the investigation.) 
 
 Witness. I must state that I must ask you, gentlemen, to summon, 
 witnesses whose names I shall give you. My men are starving. When 
 the newspapers told you we were keeping away from this committee, I 
 say to you there is no man in this country who wanted to come before 
 you as bad as Jim Fisk, jr. I have thirty or forty thousand wives and 
 children to feed with the money disbursed from our ofQce. We have 
 no money to pay them, and I know what has brought them to this con- 
 dition. 
 
 By the Ohaieman : 
 
 Q. In the beginning of this movement in gold, how far did you intend 
 to carry it? — A. To where we could ship these crops. 
 
 Q. Towhatpointinthepriceof gold?— A. That would depend entirely 
 upon various circumstances. The point might have been reached at 40, 
 and it might have been 46 or 47. 
 
 Q. Did you expect to carry it as high as 50? — ^A. 'So. 
 
 Q. What, with that view of the case, was the influence which resulted 
 
 in carrying it above 50 and above 60? — A. It went up to 60 for the 
 
 reason that there were in that market a hundred men short of gold. 
 
 There were banking-houses which had stood for fifty years, and who did 
 
 H. Eep. 31 12 . 
 
178 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 not know but what they were ruined. They rushed into the market to 
 cover their shorts. 1 think it went from 45 to 60 without the purchase 
 of more than $600,000 or $700,000 of gold. It went there in consequence 
 of the frightened bear Interest. 
 
 Q. What frightened the bears 1 — A. There was a feeling that there 
 was no gold in the market, and that the government would not let any 
 gold go out. 
 
 Q. Mr. Belden has stated under oath to the grand jury that you and 
 Mr. Gould gave him a great many orders to buy gold. Have you stated 
 all the orders that you gave ? State in full the orders you gave to Mr. 
 Belden upon these two days of the panic. — A. We were buying and 
 selling. Of course, in working a market like that we were continually 
 buying and selling gold. I think I telegraphed two or three times on 
 Thursday to Belden to buy a million of gold. The next morning I sokl 
 a million. I know in my conversation with Belden the first night there 
 was no relative difference between his purchases and the sales for our 
 account. 
 
 Q. What order did you give him on the 24th ? — ^A. I gave him no 
 order. 
 
 Q. Did he execute any order you had previously given? — ^A. Ko; all 
 orders expired at sundown. This is the rule of the street. 
 
 Q. 0. 0. Allen has also stated to the grand jury that you gave him 
 orders to buy gold ; please state what orders you gave him. — A. Allen 
 is a man whom I never saw, so far as I know. Allen claims, and has 
 brought suit, that he has a written order to buy a million of gold for 
 William Heath & Co. The facts of the case 1 wiU state as they were 
 told to me. When gold was at 43, 1 gave a young man by the name of 
 Orother an order to buy $500,000 of gold. It seems he could not exe- 
 cute the order, and he says he gave the order to this man Allen. I then 
 had no idea of gold going up to 60 or anything of that kind ; and when 
 he came back he said to me, " Suppose I can get a million, what shall I 
 do ?" Said I, "Take it." I remember that, and that is all I ever knew 
 about it. Pretty soon he came back and said he did not get anything 
 at all. This was just before the jump from 45 to 60. Then Crother 
 comes back to me and says: "You sign right at the bottom of this 
 paper," which he handed me, " and I will see if I cannot execute the 
 order." In a hasty moment, I tore the margin off a Few York Herald, 
 and wrote, "Buy a million of gold. Wm. Belden & Co." I was going 
 to send it to Belden, as I supposed Heath & Co. had all the gold they 
 wanted. They said that I told them to send it in to Heath. Three 
 days afterward Orother comes to me and states that he gave the order 
 to this man Allen, and that Allen had executed it at 60. Said I, " If 
 he has executed it let him take it." During this time Belden had failed, 
 and AUen then tried to put it off on to Heath. 
 
 Q. It is in evidence before the committee that you gave large orders 
 to WiUiam Heath & Co. ; please state what orders you gave to them.— 
 A. I think, on Friday morning. Heath bought four or five hundred 
 thousand dollars in gold. 
 
 Q. There was a meeting on the night of the 23d at the Opera House, 
 in which these transactions and the situation in which you were was 
 discussed, and in which a proposition was made to publish in the papers 
 the next morning the names of the men who were short of gold, for the 
 purpose of forcing them to a settlement; please state to the committee 
 what your plan was?— A. That was never mentioned at the Opera 
 House. 
 
 Q. Is not the Opera House the place of your up-town ofSce ? ^A. Tes. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 179 
 
 Q. State where this meeting occurred and what occurred. — A. There 
 is a theory to which you seem to refer, and the only tltiiig I can imagine 
 you refer to, that to a certain extent has originated wit5^ Daniel Drew : 
 that when parties were largely short of Erie, the names of parties and 
 the amounts could be published, so that the parties themselves in look- 
 ing over the list, seeing that such a list of the parties were down as short, 
 one man at a thousand shares, and another at another rate, each would 
 find his name there and believe the statement was correct, as to every 
 other name. Upon glancing over a list like that they would see that 
 they were cornered, and would come right down at such prices as they 
 could get. That has been a theory I have always had in mind as 
 among the things which might be tried in an emergency, until one day 
 I asked our counsel about it. The counsel told me it would partake of 
 a conspiracy, and that it could never be used. The only thing I remem- 
 ber to which you can possibly refer is, on the afternoon before black 
 Friday, I recollect saying in the office, to Mr. Gould, I think, Mr. Wil- 
 lard, and perhaps Mr. Smith, that this would be a good time to adopt 
 that theory of advertising the list of names and of carrying out that 
 plan. Some one says: "Why don't we do it? We are in a good posi- 
 tion enough ? There is gold enough short!" Said I, " Ton cannot do 
 it." "O, yes," they said. Said I, "We cannot; I have taken counsel 
 on the subject, and they say it cannot be done." In order to convince 
 these gentlemen, I sent up to Mr. Sherman's ofSce Thursday afternoon, 
 and he came down to Heath's office where we were talking. I asked him 
 to explain just what he told me about this theory, which he did, stating 
 that it could not be done ; that it was one of the acts which would be 
 considered as unlawful. 
 
 Q. State what was the plan agreed upon for your operations next 
 day.^A. ISo plan whatever. The idea the next morning was to make 
 gold about 45, and to keep it right there stUl. That was my idea. We 
 did not have any particular talk of any plan ; but my idea was to get 
 gold up to 45, and then to loan it out at that price. We could make 
 just as much money in loaning it out as we could in selling it, because 
 parties had to come to us to buy their gold. 
 
 Q. How much do you think you and your associates held the night 
 before the breakdown? — A. I cannot say fqr myself and associates, 
 for the reason that I do not know. I can say for myself, and the dif- 
 ferent parties whom I knew to hold long gold, based upon the belief that 
 the government would not sell, that we held, perhaps, sixty millions. 
 
 Q. In other words, sixty millions of calls? — ^A. That is exactly it; of 
 course we knew there was only about thirteen or fourteen millions of 
 gold that could come in onto us. 
 
 Q. Was your situation such that everybody who had gold must buy 
 of you ? — A. If we called in the thirteen millions, these parties must 
 take the gold of us. I told them, as I stated, that our plan was to put 
 gold up to 45, and that we were perfectly safe then, for we could loan 
 the gold four times over and make as much money as if we sold it, but 
 to wait until this excitement was over ; for, I assure you, I never have 
 made money in an excitable market. I preferred, therefore, to wait 
 until the prices were steady at about 45; when they dropped down to 43 
 we would buy it over again, and so make a great deal of money without 
 bringing on any comer in gold at aU. If our plan succeeded, we had 
 nothing to do but to make money all the time. 
 
 Q. Did your associates who discussed the matter with you concur 
 with you ? — A. They concurred in my view so far as this : there is no 
 fright as great as the fright in WaU street when the bears get fright- 
 
180 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 ened, for the very reason that they have sold what they have not got. 
 There are so many orders for Gold Exchange by the English and Ger- 
 man bankers , whom we knew were short of gold, that we were afraid 
 what might be the result of the fright they would get into. 
 
 Q. You knew, pretty well, who were short of gold ?— A. Of course 
 we had a list of all their contracts. 
 
 Q. About how many were short ? — A. It commenced with Jay Cooke, 
 and probably went through two hundred and fifty houses. In fact, it 
 included every firm in this country of any magnitude whatever. 
 
 Q. And they were all dependent upon you ? — A. Yes ;. we had called 
 in sis or seven millions of this amount, enough to make a sharp demand, 
 The banks held about as much more. And we therefore substantially 
 held all there was available. 
 
 Q. Who do you mean by " we " ? — A. I mean Smith, Gould, Martin 
 & Co., Mr. Willard, Mr. Belden, Heath, and the brokers they em- 
 ployed. 
 
 Q. When did you call in that six or seven millions ? — A. During 
 Tuesday and Wednesday. Our intention was to bring in enough to 
 make a sharp call for gold, enough to make quick loans, so that we 
 could get it right out of the way. 
 
 Q. When the movement began on Friday, and gold started up, did 
 not a large number of " shorts " come in to settle ? — A. That I have un- 
 derstood. None of them came to settle with me. My gold went from 
 Heath's back to Smith, Gould & Martin's from the clearing-house. 
 They told me they had settled my contracts with Heath, leaving about 
 eleven hundred dollars profit, out of eleven or twelve millions transac- 
 tious. They said, " We have settled so much gold and sold so much 
 gold ; we will take your gold at a certain price." Said I, "Very well ; you 
 take the gold and turn it over to Smith, Gould & Martin." 
 
 Q. Why did the prices break down that day ? — A. On account of 
 this sale by the government. 
 
 Q. Did it not break down before the orders to sell were known?— A. 
 Not before they were known. 
 
 .Q. At what time in the day did the break occur ? — A. I should think 
 at half-past eleven. 
 
 Q. How soon did you know the news? — A. I will state what I know 
 on that subject. I never had met General Butterfleld but once before 
 this. They considered him all-important. I did not see how we could 
 get much benefit from him. Nevertheless, I could see that if they had 
 a claim upon him, if he got the news first, he would give it to them. 
 On Friday morning, when I went out into the street, everybody was 
 wild. The first thing I suppose every man did who was a friend to 
 BoutweU was to telegraph to Washington. An article also appeared 
 that morning in the Times, saying that the administration was mixed 
 up in this movement, and that the time had come when they should 
 break up these cliques. It was a dirty article, but I found that it would 
 break down gold; that it would be telegraphed to Washington, and 
 that when the time came, these men would not stand fast. I beUeved 
 it that morning, the moment I got into the street. I had three or four 
 runners with me, and I started a man from my office right up to But- 
 terfield's every fifteen minutes. Butterfleld kept sending down word to 
 Mr. Gould that everything was all right. This continued until about 
 twenty minutes past eleven, when gold, which had gone up to 63, all of 
 a sudden broke down to 40. My man had then been gone about half 
 an hour. He reported that he could not for a good while find Butter- 
 field. I believe that when Butterfleld got the information he gave it to 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 181 
 
 Seligman, and that he withheld the information from the others as long 
 as he could, until he could get out some of the gold he had there. That 
 is the jElrst knowledge I had of this order. 
 
 Q. Do you know that of your own knowledge? — A. No; I cannot say 
 anything more than that it was the general belief. 
 
 Q. Why would the sale of four millions of gold break down the 
 market ? — ^A. It would break our corner. 
 
 Q. The " longs" then were not so strong but that four millions wotilC 
 break them ? — A. It would when they knew the government had eightj 
 or ninety millions right behind it. The theory was adopted in a moment 
 that the government had made up its mind to break up this clique. 
 They gave real gold that took the money to pay for it every time. 
 
 Q. Explain to thfe committee what you mean by " phantom gold?" — 
 A. I mean "short" gold. That is the common title. You are a mem- 
 ber of the board, suppose, and you say, I will seU you gold at twenty- 
 one, and I say I wiU take it. Tou and I exchange tickets ; to-morrow 
 you have got to give me that gold ; but you come to me and buy the 
 gold, or you borrow it and give it to me. It is nothing really but a 
 piece of paper. Again, suppose I have a million of gold ; you come to 
 me and want to borrow a million; you loan the gold or sell it to another 
 man, and he to another, and so on, until a million of gold would settle 
 twenty millions of transactions, and no gold has really passed at all. 
 In fact millions of transactions pass through the clearing-house with 
 never a dollar of real gold at all. 
 
 By Mr. Buechard : 
 
 Q. Where was the thirteen or fourteen millions of gold which you say 
 was in existence? — A. Supposed to be in the banks, but the banks 
 always kept it loaned out. 
 
 Q. In these purchases to which you have referred, did your parties 
 have any actual gold? — A. Tes; we had probably three or four millions 
 actual gold. 
 
 By the Chaieman: 
 
 Q. Did you receive any messages from Butterfleld during that day? — 
 A. Nothing, only what was brought by my man, who kept going back- 
 ward and forward to my office. In the first place Mr. Gould and my- 
 self fixed our headquarters for the day at Heath's office, and these 
 messages were sent over there. Butterfield would send back word, 
 everything is all right ; no news from Washington ; and so we kept 
 passing our messages until half-past eleven, when, as I said, the mes- 
 senger was gone for half an hour, during which time the break came. 
 The messenger says he could not find Butterfield ; but I have always 
 ■ made up my mind that, when Butterfleld's testimony before the grand 
 jury comes out, you will find that he gave the first information to Selig- 
 man, and to Morton, Bliss & Co. Of course I have not seen that testi- 
 mony, but I think he admitted that, and that it was the cause of his 
 removal. I have always thought they wanted to make Butterfield a 
 bulwark to fight over so that it would not reach the Grant party. I 
 have always held to the belief that they would have supported Butter- 
 fleld as long as they could, if he had not in his own admissions acknowl- 
 edged that he was speculating with Seligman and Morton; otherwise I 
 do not believe they would ever have removed him. 
 
 Q. During the time did General Butterfield send this message to you : 
 "Is bottom touched?" and did you return for answer "Bottom is 
 touched?" — A. I do not remember anything of the kind. 
 
182 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Did you state this during that day iu Heath's office, "This is the 
 last day of the Gold Exchange?" — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you say so any where ?— A. ISTot that I remember. I made up 
 my mind that afternoon that the Gold Bank and the Gold Exchange were 
 both bursted. I did not think they could go through, but I did not 
 make any remark of that kind. 
 
 Q. Prom your knowledge of business, do you think the gold-room and 
 Gold Exchange Bank are necessary to the transaction of business?— 
 A. I think the Gold Exchange is a legitimate way of transacting that 
 description of business, but I think the clearing-house they have there 
 is as much a tempter of sales as if somebody should say to a reformed 
 drunkard, " I will set a bottle of gin on that shelf and then go away 
 and leave you." I believe it is as much a temptation, for the reason 
 that you can make more transactions with five thousand dollars through 
 the clearing-house tlian you could with a hundred thousand dollars 
 without it. 
 
 Q. From your own knowledge, do you know of any officer of the gov- 
 ernment of the United States; either in Washington, New York, or 
 elsewhere, who was directly or indirectly concerned in purchasing, or 
 interested in the results of the gold movement in these two days 1— 
 A. I can state that I have told you what I know to be the connection 
 of officers of the government with the gold transactions with which I 
 was connected. 
 
 Q. Beyond what you have stated, have you any other knowledge?— 
 A. I should say no. 
 
 Q. I understand you to refer to your history of Oorbin's statements 
 to you ; do you know of your own knowledge that Gorbin spoke by 
 authority, or that he spoke truthfully, when he represented that he had 
 arrangements made for everything ? — A. I only know that he told me 
 that his arrangements with General Grant were perfect, and he reiter- 
 ated it over and over again. 
 
 Q. With all the facts that have transpired, do you believe that ho 
 spoke the truth ? — A. Yes, sir ; I do. 
 
 Q. You have spoken of money having been paid ; do you think money 
 was ever paid to Mr. Gorbin ? — A. Yes ; I know that a check of twenty- 
 five thousand doUars was given to him, and that it was afterward re- 
 turned to the bank. 
 
 Q. Drawn by whom? — A. Drawn on Smith, Gould & Martin, by 
 Jay Gould. This check was tracked up, and found to have been pre- 
 sented to the Bank of the Commonwealth without Gorbin's signature, 
 which of itself has a suspicious look. We found that it came through 
 the bank in which Gorbin keeps his account, bearing the number of 
 Gorbin's account, showing that it went to his credit. Evidently he de- 
 clined to indorse it, thinking it might place him more in our power. 
 
 Q. You know that that twenty-five thousand dollars was paid and 
 placed to Mr. Gorbin's account ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of your own knowledge the fact of more money 
 having been paid by any other parties connected with the government 
 in connection with this matter ? — ^A. I only know of this twenty-five 
 thousand dollars, and what I have stated in regard to the hundred 
 thousand. 
 
 Q. But that, you say, was not paid ? — ^A. No ; but I went, at the re- 
 quest of Mr. Gould, and got a check payable to Gorbin's order, which I 
 gave to Mr. Gould, as I stated. 
 
 Q. But you do not know that it was ever delivered to Mr. Gorbin ? — 
 A. 1 do not ; no, sir. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 183 
 
 Q. Can you name any other person who heard any of these conversa- 
 tions between yourself and Corbin than those you have named? — A. I 
 think Dr. Pollard did. 
 
 Q. At what interview was he present 1 — A. I think he was present at 
 two or three meetings at Corbin's house, and also that Mr. Catherwood 
 was in an adjoining room when Corbin was at the Opera House. I never 
 did know it until two or three days ago, when he recalled it to my mind 
 that he had heard Corbin make certain remarks. 
 
 Q. Did any officer of the United States ever give you any direct or 
 indirect statement that he knew of these private speculations in gold 
 and intended to protect them by keeping the government from selling 1 — 
 A. I have stated about all that I know, to the best of my knowledge 
 and belief, regarding what government officers had to do with our trans- 
 actions, and that is my answer to the question. 
 
 Q. Have you stated anywhere that any officer of the government had 
 told you this ? — ^A. I have stated about what connection I considered the 
 government of&cers had with our transactions. 
 
 Q. In any other way than you have described had you any knowledge 
 of this fact? — A. In the way I have described about the gold trans- 
 actions and the connection they had with government transactions, is 
 the way I understand the matter to be. 
 Q. And the only way ? — ^A. And the only way. 
 
 Q. From your knowledge and relationship to Mr. Gould, is it possible 
 that these facts as stated by you can be true without Mr. Gould's 
 knowing it? — A. I should suppose Mr. Gould would understand the 
 matter as I do ; that would be my supposition. 
 
 Q. Tou know him to have been intimately related to nearly all you 
 have stated ? — A. I know he was in the habit of calling on Corbin twice 
 a day for six weeks. I know that he had three or four interviews with 
 General Grant, and therefore I do not see why he should not understand 
 the matter as I do. The testimony I have given this afternoon regarding 
 the connection of General Grant with this movement, has been given 
 to you by me upon the theory that what I knew about it was told to me 
 by Mr. Corbin and Mrs. Corbin, and I have reason to believe that what 
 they told me is true. It is, however, for those who have judgment in 
 the matter to say whether Mr. and Mrs. Corbin deceived me. It is proof 
 that I cannot doubt. I believed what they said, and acted upon that 
 belief, and placed myself in a position that no one in this country would 
 ever care to be placed in. That is the best reason I can give for my 
 belief in what Mr. and Mrs. Corbin told me. 
 
 Q. When Speyers was introduced to you, did not Belden or some one 
 in the office say, "We are all of one family, and the orders given are the 
 orders for all of us ? " — ^A. No, sir. Belden in these suits has given his 
 af&davit, and has testified in regard to these transactions as to the 
 precise language he used when he brought Speyers in. 
 
 Q. Was not Speyers ordered to report to Mr. Smith any purchases 
 which he made ? — A. H'o, I think not. 
 Do you know whether Mr. Smith gave him any orders ? — ^No, I do not 
 
 Washington, D. C, Jamiary 22, 1870. 
 Chakles W. Pollaud sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chaikman : 
 Question. State your residence, place of business, and occupation. 
 Answer. I reside in New York; my place of business is at the Erie Eail- 
 
184 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATIOIir. 
 
 road office. I have charge of the distribution of cars, and demurrage 
 account of the Erie railroad. 
 
 Q. Were you ever present at .an interview between James Pisk,jr., 
 and Mri Oorbin? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When and where?— A. On Saturday, the 25th of September, at 
 Mr. Corbin's house, in the morning. 
 
 Q. State the circumstances of that interview.— A. Mr. Fisk asked me 
 Saturday morning to go up to Mr. Corbin's house and see him, saying 
 that it was important for me to see him early in the morning. I went 
 up to Mr. Corbin's, and found him feeling so ill and wretched that he 
 said it would be impossible for him to get out, as he had been sick aU 
 night. He asked me to bring Mr. Fisk and Mr. Gould up there as soon 
 as I could. I took the carriage and went back, and Mr. Fisk came right 
 up with me to Mr. Corbin's house. Mr. Fisk and Mr. Corbin went into 
 the library and talked a few moments. I stood in the hall. They then 
 came out. Mr. Corbin took his hat and said, " If it is necessary, I will 
 start to-night, immediately." They got into the carriage and went down 
 to the office. He remained there about two hours in the office, closeted 
 with Mr. Gould and Mr. Fisk. I was not present at the interview. 
 
 Q. Have you stated all you saw and heard on that occasion? — ^A. On 
 that occasion, I have. That was the only interview they had together 
 when I was present. 
 
 Q. Was there any other person present at that interview 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there anybody else in the house, so far as you know 1 — A. No 
 other person was in the library, to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Did you hear the voice of any person other than those two! — A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you near enough so that you could have heard any other 
 voice? — A. No, I think not. 
 
 Q. Where were you? — A. At the vestibule door. 
 
 Q. Have you ever had any other interviews with Mr. Corbin ? — A. He 
 called upon me both Thursday and Friday, at the office. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with what is commonly known as the gold clique 
 or movement during that time ? — A. Having been an .old broker, I am 
 somewhat familiar with the modus operandi. I was not connected with 
 it myself. 
 
 Q. Of your own personal knowledge, do you know anything of the 
 operations on that day ? — A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Corbin at any time in company with Mr. 
 Fisk ? — A. A great many times at the office. 
 
 Q. Did you at Mr. Corbin's house ? — A. No, sir ; I have been at Mr. 
 Corbin's house a number of times, and met him at the offlce, from time 
 to time, for sis: months previous; during all that time I have known the 
 pleasant relations existing between him and Fisk and Gould. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen Fisk or Gould pay him any money ? — A. I never 
 saw them pay him money. 
 
 Q. Did you know of any business relations between them ? — A. Yes. 
 You asked me if I ever saw them pay him money. Of course I have 
 seen the check that passed. My relations with Mr. Catherwood in regard 
 to the railroad we were constructing brought me in contact frequently 
 with Mr. Corbin, from a year ago last August for nearly a year. Perhaps 
 the first time I saw Mr. Corbin was a year ago from this time ; he 
 frequently came into the office, and I met him at the down-town railroad 
 office on Broadway. 
 
 Q. So that there can be no doubt that it was Mr. Corbin you saw at 
 his house that morning ? — A. Oh, no ; I know him perfectly well. 1 
 have letters of introduction to General Grant from Mr. Corbin. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 185 
 
 Washington, January 22. 
 Wm. E. Dodge, sr., sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 Question. State your place of residence and occupation ? — ^Answer. I 
 live in the city of New York ; I am a merchant, and have been for forty 
 years. Business, importer of metals. 
 
 Q. Has your business for the past few months led you to be famUiai 
 with the price and movements of gold ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Ton then recollect the circumstances connected with the extraor 
 dinary rise in gold in September last ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you understand the cause of that rise? — A. I have no doubt it 
 was the result of speculation, attempting to control the gold market and 
 raise the price of gold. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge as to who were concerned in this specu- 
 lation ? — A. I have no personal knowledge on that point. 
 
 Q. Will you tell us the effects of this extraordinary movement in 
 gold upon the general business interests which you represent? — A. 
 During the month of September, and immediately preceding the great 
 culminating speculation, gold was rising so rapidly from day to day that 
 as merchants it had become exceedingly embarrassing to conduct our 
 business. Our goods were foreign goods ; and as gold continued to rise 
 we ceased, as far as possible, making any sales, feeling that gold was 
 unnecessarily high, and must soon recede. On the day of the collapse, 
 more particiilarly, there was a feeling of alarm that put a stop to busi- 
 ness of every kind entirely. Almost everybody was running to and fro, 
 either reporting or inquiring in regard to the continual advances ; and 
 gentlemen who were determined to maintain their integrity at all haz- 
 ards were obliged to buy gold at the current rate of the hour. For 
 instance, at half-past eleven in the morning, a merchant called upon to 
 settle for a foreign importation, the payment for which came due that 
 day, would have been obliged to purchase gold at from fifty to sixty per 
 cent, premium ; but at half past twelve, only an hour afterward, he 
 could have got gold for 31. 
 
 Q. Did any merchants actually settle at any such rates during those 
 daye, so far as you know ? — A. I do not know that I can name any par- 
 ticular individuals who did so, though it was very possible, and indeed 
 probable, that many parties were so situated. Many losses of the kind 
 were suffered up to the culmination of the affair. You will remember 
 the price went to 35, 37, 39, 42, 44, 45 ; but on the day the break took 
 place almost aU business was suspended, and almost everybody deferred 
 making settlement to as late an hour as possible, and thereby was saved 
 from the loss that would otherwise have occured. 
 
 Q. Do you transact your business through the gold clearing-house ? — 
 A. Up to that time we did; but since that time our transactions have 
 been in the open market--refusing to encourage anything connected 
 with such a speculative affair. 
 
 Q. What is the practical use of the gold clearing-house 1 — A. There 
 is no need at all of any such institution. There would be no difficulty 
 in buying and selling gold in the regular course of brokerage business. 
 That would always keep gold at its regular and natural level. 
 
 Q. Mr. Dodge, it has been stated before the committee that the gold 
 clearing-house, or some institution to serve a similar purpose, is neces- 
 sary for the settlement of accounts, because previous to its establish- 
 ment clerks carrying gold in settlement of balances were knocked down 
 on the street and robbed, or would themselves sometimes run away with 
 
186 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 the gold given in their charge to convey from one place to another. Do 
 you know of the existence of any difaculty of that kind, in the absence 
 of a clearing-house, which is obviated by its existence ?— A. irTactically 
 there is no such difftculty. All of us keep two accounts, a currency 
 account and a gold account ; and transfers of gold are made, not by 
 carrying it through the street, but by drawing gold checks on our banks. 
 As I have said, we have been doing our business without going near 
 the clearing-house ever since the panic. 
 
 Q. And have found no diflculty in the transaction of your business 
 and the settlement of your balances 1— A. ISTot the least. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion as to the opportunity offered by the existence 
 of the Gold Exchange Bank for speculative movements? — A. My opinion 
 is that without that organization it would have been utterly impossible 
 to have got up that panic. 
 
 Q. How so f — A. Because in the open market no excitement can be 
 got up. In the gold-room, gold, or rather the ownership of gold, 
 changes hands at fictitious values ; men of almost no capital buy and 
 sell gold which they do not in reality possess, merely for purposes of 
 speculation ; there is no legitimate business about it; and the commerce 
 of the country is obliged to make settlements at the current rate of 
 gold, according to the fictitious prices established by those gamblers of 
 the gold-room. Unscrupulous and irresponsible men, without a hun- 
 dred dollars in the world, either in gold or currency, buy and seU to the 
 extent of millions, at fictitious prices, and every merchant in the United 
 States is at their mercy. 
 
 Q. What is the average amount, daily, of legitimate transactions in 
 gold in K"ew York City ? — A. It is imijossible for me to tell. When we 
 consider the heavy importations that are made, the large dealing in for- 
 eign exchange and government bonds, and other busiaess in which gold 
 is necessarily used, it is evident that the legitimate gold transactions 
 must be very large ; but they bear no kind of proportion to the amount 
 that changes hands in the gold-room, solely as a matter of specula- 
 tion. 
 
 Q. In your opinion, could the gold-room and the Gold Exchange Bank 
 continue to exist, were we to return to specie payments! — ^A. There 
 would be no necessity for it in the regular course of commerce — not the 
 least in the world; it might exist for a time as a mere gambling-house; 
 nothing else. These institutions are built entirely on the difference 
 between gold and paper. 
 
 Q. In the absence of the gold-room, how would the price of gold be 
 determined? — A. Very easily. There are a large number of banking 
 establishments in New York,' among them five or six very large houses, 
 headed by cool, determined, business men, who would take your order 
 for five or six hundred thousand dollars. If you want to ascertain the 
 rate of exchange, go to some of these men— say Brown Bros., Duncan, 
 Sherman & Co., or Belmont. They will give you the figures at which 
 gold is legitimately selling, without a variation of more than one-six- 
 teenth of a cent between them. And there would not be that feverish 
 competition between them that is excited among the gamblers of the 
 gold-room. For instance, I go .to Brown Brothers for $100,000 in gold, 
 and inquire the premium ; they tell me 22^ was the quotation at 12 
 o'clock. I tell them that Duncan, Sherman & Co. are selling at 22J ; 
 "Well," say Brown Brothers, "if they are doing that, that is the price." 
 Take the gold-room out of the way and the commerce in gold will regu- 
 ate itself, and there would not be a daily variation of one-sixteenth of 
 one per cent, in the price of gold. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 187 
 
 Q. State whether the effect of this speculation in gold was felt for 
 any considerable time after the panic ? — ^A. For two or three days the 
 business of the city was completely paralyzed ; the clearing-house was 
 completely loaded, and could do nothing. It was impossible for busi- 
 ness men to do any business. I will refer to my own case. On that 
 very day, when the collapse took place, as I was going down Wil- 
 liam street — gold being, according to the last quotations I had heard, 
 at 57 — a young man came running toward me, and told me that the 
 bubble had broke, and gold gone down to 31. I hastened to the gold- 
 room and found gold at 34. I immediately bought at 34 ; but the next 
 day the party of whom I purchased was unable to deliver it ; the clear- 
 ing-house was bankrupt ; and I had to wait three or four days. I wanted 
 the gold to use the next day, and went into the market and bought it 
 at 30J. He afterward offered to deliver it, but I did not want it then, 
 and would not take it. I afterward found out that he was going to be 
 shut out from the gold-room for not carrying out his contract, and as I 
 knew he was a poor and worthy man, rather than have him suffer I sent 
 him a check for the difference between 30J and 34J, on the amount I pur- 
 chased of him. This is only one instance of what was occurring through- 
 out the city and country as the result of that panic. All over the country, 
 for several weeks, business was almost entirely paralyzed; parties who 
 were expecting gold checks or remittances by each mail, failed to get 
 them, and were greatly embarrassed in consequence. All was disorder 
 and uncertainty. 
 
 Q. In conducting your business is it necessary, frequently, for you to 
 sell gold that you do not have? — ^A. We never do that. We buy gold, 
 biit we never sell. We buy it to use in the regular course of our busi- 
 ness. 
 
 Q. Do you loan gold? — A. K'ever. 
 
 Q. It has been stated before this committee that an importer, in order 
 to secure himself against iluctuation, after he has commenced a trans- 
 action with a European house, must buy his gold ; and that then he 
 can loan it until he needs it for his own use. Is that the ordinary way, 
 and a legitimate transaction, in your opinion? — A. Oh, yes; that is per 
 fectly legitimate, but it is not in our line. A man dealing in the cotton 
 business must do that, in order to do business at all ; otherwise he 
 would be entirely at the mercy of the price of gold at that future time, 
 when his transaction should be completed. 
 
 Q. Is it also legitimate for that class of business men to sell gold 
 which they do not have at the time, but which they expect by-and-by to 
 have, to deliver ? — &.. Yes, sir; that is legitimate. If a merchant knows 
 that he is going to have gold in his possession a fortnight hence, and 
 prefers to make a certain profit now than to run the risk of what the 
 market may be a fortnight hence, it is perfectly legitimate and proper 
 for him to do so. 
 
 Q. In your opinion, was there any combination at the time of the 
 panic for the purpose of putting up gold?— A. I look upon the whole 
 thing as a gambling operation. Such transactions ought to be placed 
 entirely outside the pale of commerce ; but I do not know whether it 
 can be reached by law or not. 
 
 Q. In your opinion, is there anything short of a return to specie pay- 
 ment that can remedy it ? — A. I do not know of anything that.can be 
 done, unless the law can treat it as gambling. That ought to be done, 
 for it is gambling in the very life-blood of the nation. It is the worst 
 kind of gambling. If you gamble in the stocks of a railroad, only those 
 who own stocks in the railroad company are injured by it. You have 
 
188 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 nothing at stake except what you have voluntarily risked. But in the 
 condition of the currency, every single person in the entire country is in- 
 terested. I do not know whether legislation could eifect anything ; but I 
 should like to see government fix, if it were possible, some authoritative 
 standard by which the business of the country could be settled. Then 
 let these speculators gamble among themselves as much as they choose. 
 
 Washington, January 22. 
 
 Geoege U. Stuaet sworn and examined : 
 
 Question. Mr. Stuart, state your residence and your business. — An- 
 swer. My residence is Philadelphia ; I am a merchant — an importer of 
 British dry goods ; have been engaged in that business for thirty-eight 
 years. 
 
 Q. Did you observe the course of gold in September last? — A. I did. 
 
 Q. State the effect of the disturbance in New York, about the 23d and 
 24th of September, upon business in Philadelphia. — A. Business was af- 
 fected very severely. The price of gold was governed, hour by hour, and 
 in fact minute by minute, by the price in New York. We had a tele- 
 graphic indicator in our office, constantly showing the price of gold in 
 the gold-room in New York. In fact, the machines could not work fast 
 enough. 
 
 Q. Are such indicators in use throughout the United States '! — A. I 
 presume they are — at least in the leading cities. 
 
 Q. In your business is it necessary that you should buy a great deal 
 of gold? — A. Daily, sir. 
 
 Q. How did the New York panic affect your business? — A. Yery seri- 
 ously ; put a complete stop to it for weeks. It paralyzed everything 
 connected with foreign dry goods. 
 
 Q. Was this also true, to some extent, of other kinds of business in 
 your city ? — A. Yery generally, sir, throughout Philadelphia. 
 
 Q. Were there any considerable losses as the result? — A. I have 
 heard of a number of houses that lost heavily. One man I know of had 
 to settle for a large amount at 55, when gold fell in a few hours to 35. 
 He has since failed, at 50 cents on the dollar. 
 
 Q. You have heard the testimony just given by Mr. Dodge ; in so far 
 as ho describes the general effect of the disturbance in the gold market 
 upon business, does your opinion coincide with his ? — A. Entirely. 
 
 Q. How do you settle your matters in Philadelphia ? Have you a gold 
 clearing-house there ? — A. A small one ; but our merchants' business is 
 mainly done through our large brokers, who have the New York quota- 
 tions in their offices from ten o'clock in the morning till four in the after- 
 noon. 
 
 Q. Do you think a gold clearing-house necessary for the transaction 
 of such business ? — A. I think the very reverse. We used one for a 
 short time, but finally concluded we could get along better without it. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of any considerable losses resulting fi-om not 
 having a clearing-house ?^A. Never, sir. 
 
 Q. Can you suggest any legislation that would tend, in your judg- 
 ment, to regulate and remove these evils ? — ^A. I have not given the 
 subject sufticieut attention in that direction to be able to suggest any 
 remedy ; but I am convinced, from my own experience with and without 
 the use of a clearing-house, from frequent visits to the gold-room in 
 New York, and from my acquaintance with merchants and the mercan- 
 tile business of various large cities, that there is no occasion whatever 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 189 
 
 for a Gold Exchange, and have endeavored to induce our merchants to 
 transact their business outside of those who operate in the gold-room, be- 
 lieving that for all business purposes, gold, like exchange, can be and 
 ought to be bought and sold at the counters of those whose business it 
 is to deal with it, and its price regulated by the ordinary commercial 
 rules of supply and demand, instead. of by the fictitious values set upon 
 it by reckless speculators, who have nothing to lose and everything to 
 gain. 
 
 Q. Do you think it would aid the business of the country, and give 
 it a more stable character, if Congress were to fix a rate at which paper 
 currency should be received for gold ? — A. As I have said, I have not 
 given that branch of the subject sufficient study to speak in such a 
 manner as I should ; but it seems to me that if some well-digested law 
 could be prepared to regulate the price of gold from month to month, 
 it would have a very good effect upon the business of the country. The 
 one great want of the business men of the country is stability. If we 
 could be certain that for thirty days to come gold would remain at from 
 20 to 22, we could carry on business with some satisfaction — could feel 
 some security. Our own house has purchased a large amount of goods 
 with gold that cost us 21^ per cent, premium ; the goods are in our 
 possession ; in order to get our money back we must sell upon a basis of 
 21J per cent, premium. But if, before these goods are disposed of, gold 
 should go down to fifteen per cent., we should lose by the operation 6^ 
 per cent. True, if gold should go up we should be the gainers. But we 
 do not want to risk our fortune upon a blind chance; we want to do a 
 regular and prudent business, in a business-like way ; but as it is now, we 
 are compelled to be at the mercy of a changeable money-market, whose 
 fluctuations we cannot control nor foresee. This renders aU business 
 very much of a lottery. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. Do you think that such legislation as you propose would prevent 
 the possibility of a comer in gold ? — A. It seems to me that some law 
 might be devised to prevent it. After all is said and done, the gov- 
 ernment owns, really, the gold of the country, and the operations of 
 these gold cliques are aU based upon the probabilities of what the gov- 
 ernment will do. 
 
 Q. But might they not form combinations of capital sufficient to 
 counteract all that the government could do ■? — ^A. I do not think there 
 is near so much gold in New York City as is generally supposed.. The 
 amount in use daily is undoubtedly very large ; but I believe it could 
 be very much reduced if there could be more stability ia the price. For 
 instance, as it is now, at the foreign exchange banker's there is a double 
 operation ; the man who buys foreign exchange has to go into, the mar- 
 ket and buy gold to pay for it ; the man who seUs exchange to the for- 
 eign banker and gets gold in payment has to go into the market and 
 sell his gold, perhaps to the very same banker the other man has bought 
 from, each man paying a brokerage. But if there were to be some 
 price fixed at which currency would be exchanged for gold, much of 
 these large transactions would be done away with. 
 
 Q. With the present state of affairs, can you, as a matter of fact, 
 know anything definite as to the condition of your business ? — ^A. That 
 is one great trouble. A man may apparently be making a good living 
 profit on his goods ; but by the time the year's business is concluded, 
 the difference in the price of gold may so teU against him as to sweep 
 off the entire profits of the year. 
 
190 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. And your only protection against sucha result lies m marking up 
 the price of your goods so as to cover risks ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If gold payments were resumed, or if vre had a fixed rate at which 
 greenbacks would be redeemed, could you or could you not mark down 
 your goods to your customers very considerably below what you can now 
 sell them at ? In other words, if y.ou knew to a perfect certainty that 
 there would be no fluctuation in gold for a year ahead, could you or 
 could you not afford to sell at less figures than you now can'? — A. Most 
 certainly. 
 
 Q. You have to insure yourself by charging enough to cover contin- 
 gencies ? — ^A. Yes, sir ; and even then are not insured. 
 
 Washington, January 24, 1870. 
 
 Henry H. Martin sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State to the committee the reasons why you did not obey 
 its first summons? — Answer. I was notified to appear on a jury before 
 Judge McCunn, on Monday of last week. That notification was before I 
 had received any notice to appear before this committee. I was under 
 the impression that I was excused from that jury duty and that I could 
 come, but upon further examination I found I was not, and accordingly I 
 reported myself to Judge McCunn and served upon the jury. I ap- 
 peared in court from morning to morning. On Friday morning the 
 court was adjourned over and I came on here on Friday afternoon. I 
 had no design to avoid appearing before the committee. 
 
 Q. Did you ask to be excused from jury duty ? — ^A. Yes, sir ; I tried 
 to be excused. 
 
 Q. Did you make your request in open court % — A. A friend of mine 
 made application to Judge McCunn. 
 
 Q. What was the answer % — A. I saw upon my notice that I was not 
 excused, or something to that effect, signed by J. McCunn, or his in- 
 itials. 
 
 Q. State your place of residence, your place of business, and your oc- 
 cupation. — A. My place of residence is Kew York; my place of business 
 is 11 Broad street ; my business is broker. 
 
 Q. What is the firm !— A. Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. 
 
 Q. Is the Gould of that firm Jay Gould?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Were you doing business during the month of September last % — 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What branch of the duties of the firm do you usually perform %— 
 A. My branch of the business that I have charge of is mostly in the 
 way of looking after out-of-town stock-account correspondents. 
 
 Q. Is it largely oflce work? — A. To some extent. 
 
 Q. Do you have a general supervision of the interior business arrange- 
 ments of your firm ? — A. No, sir ; I do not have altogether a general 
 supervision. My duties are of that kind. 
 
 Q. You are generally cognizant of the operations of your firm, so far 
 as they appear on the books ? — A. No, sir ; not always. 
 
 Q. You are generally acquainted with the operations of the firm ? — 
 A. No, sir; not generally. Sometimes I am and sometimes I am not. 
 
 Q. Was your firm large buyers of gold in August and September 
 last ? — A. There was some gold bought in those months. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 191 
 
 Q. Was any member of your firm also member of the gold-room ? — A, 
 Mr. Smith was a member of the gold-room. 
 
 Q. Any other member of your firm ? — A. I think not. 
 
 Q. You are not, yourself? — A. ^o, sir; I am not. 
 
 Q. Were the purchases of gold during these months made for the ac- 
 count of your firm by Mr. Smith himself'? — A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Which one of your firm did make the purchases of gold, ii 
 any ?— A. Not any member of the firm that I am aware of. 
 
 Q. What member of the firm gave orders for the purchase of gold 
 during those months ? — A. I saw no orders given, so that I cannot say 
 who gave the orders. 
 
 By Mr. JxJDD : 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that no orders were given, to your knowl- 
 edge? — ^A. I do not know ; I think two or three orders. 
 
 Q. Name them. — A. I do not know that I know that any orders were 
 given. As I said before, I had no charge of any of those purchases in 
 the business. I attend to my own department and let others attend to 
 theirs. 
 
 Q. Do you mean the committee to understand that you do not know 
 that any orders to buy or sell gold were given by your firm on the 22d, 
 23d or 24th of September last ? — A. I do not see that I can give any 
 different answer than I have already given for the ground I have 
 stated. 
 
 Q. Give any answer categorically to that direct question. — A. There 
 may have been, but I cannot say whether there were or not. 
 
 Q. Do you know that any orders were given on those days either to 
 buy or sell gold by your firm as such, or by any member of your firm ? — 
 A. I cannot say. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that during those days you had no conversa- 
 tion with either of your partners as to the purchase and sale of gold? — 
 A. Not to my recollection. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with your partners as to the trans- 
 actions on the Gold Exchange on those days ? — ^A. Not to my recollec- 
 tion. 
 
 Q. Are there any entries upon your books as to purchases or sales of 
 gold ? — A. It is my impression that there are not. 
 
 Q. Were there any statements of purchases made on those days by 
 your firm ? — ^A. I think there were. 
 
 Q. What were they ? — A. I cannot say what they were. 
 
 Q. Have you examined your books ? — A. I cannot recoUect what they 
 were. 
 
 Q. Have you ever looked at your books to see the result of those 
 days' operations ? — A. No, sir ; I have not. 
 
 Q. Who has charge of your books ? — A. The different clerks in the 
 office. 
 
 Q. Do you ever have occasion to examine them ? — A. Sometimes. 
 
 Q. Have you ever conversed with your partners about the operations 
 on those days ? — A. No, sir ; I have not. 
 
 Q. Have you ever heard them converse with anybody else upon the 
 subject ? — A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say, then, that you know nothing about the trans- 
 actions on those days ? — ^A. I mean to say simply this, that my duties 
 are of the character which I have already named ; that they are sepa- 
 rate and distinct; and these duties I have attended to, leaving others 
 to attend to duties which properly belong to them. 
 
192 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Did ttie members of your firm have any meeting for consultation 
 during those days "? — A. None with me. , 
 
 Q. Do you know of their having any meeting?— A. Ifottomy linovl. 
 edge. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 Q. Do you or do you not kndw that there was a very considerable 
 fluctuation in the price of gold during those [three days?— A. There 
 was a change in the price of gold. 
 
 Q. You know that, do you?— A. Yes, sir. ,^ ^^ ^. „ 
 
 Q. Did you, as a member of the firm of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., 
 have any interest in the rise or fall of gold ?— A. No, sir ; I did not. 
 
 Q. Did your firm, as a firm, have any interest in it ? — ^A. Not to my 
 knowledge. 
 
 Q. Have you ever heard any of the members say that the firm had 
 any interest in it?— A. No, sir. 
 Q. Did you hear any individual member of it say so 1 — ^A. No. sir. 
 Q. Do you believe that the firm had any interest in the movement of 
 gold ? — A. Not to my knowledge ; I never have had any reason to be- 
 lieve that it had. 
 
 Q. Are you a responsible member of the firm ; I mean to say are you 
 responsible for the doings of the firm in part ; are you such a member 
 of the firm as is responsible in part ? — ^A. I am a member of the firm in 
 the ordinary sense. 
 
 Q. If the firm makes a loss, or a gain, are you a sharer ia that loss or 
 gain ? — A. The firm is not interested in profits or losses, to my knowl- 
 edge. 
 
 By Mr. JuDD : 
 Q. Who is interested in the profits or losses of the business?— A. 
 Our customers. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Does it make no difference to you pecuniarily, whether your firm 
 loses or makes in transactions ? — A. I am not aware of the firm being 
 interested in transactions from which profits or losses can be made. 
 
 Q. What is the business of your firm ? — A. Buying and selling. 
 
 Q. And you never make or lose in buying or selling ; is that your 
 answer ? — A. Not the firm, as I understand it. 
 
 Q. Is your business entirely a commission business ? — ^A. Yes, sir; as 
 far as I have any knowledge. 
 
 Q. You do business for others, upon which you receive commission?— 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did your firm upon any of those days buy or sell, or loan gold for 
 others upon commission ?— A. It is quite likely. 
 
 Q. Did it, or did it not?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Name the parties for whom you did buy or seU gold ?— A. I cannot 
 say who the parties were. 
 
 Q. Do you know none of them for whom you transacted business?— 
 A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. How do you know then that your firm did transact business 
 during those days in the way of buying or selling gold? — A. I know by 
 the reports. 
 
 By Mr. JtTDD : 
 
 Q. Reports from whom ?— A. I know by the reports that I saw coming 
 into the oifice. 
 Q. In what shape ? — A. Eeports of brokers. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 193 
 
 Q. What brokers ? — ^A. Lounsbery & Panshawe for one, and Hall & 
 Young, I think, 
 
 Q. What others ? — A. I do not recollect any others at present. 
 
 Q- Was Wm. Heath in your office during those days ? — A. I do not 
 recollect to have seen him in our office. 
 
 By the Ghaieman : 
 
 Q. Did E. K. Willard do any business in the way of a broker during 
 those days for your firm 1 — A. He has done some business for us, but 
 to what extent I do not know. 
 
 Q. Did he do any business for you during those days ? — ^A. Some oi 
 those days he did ; I cannot say what particular days he did. 
 
 By Mr. Judd : 
 
 Q. What did he do ? — A. It is merely a general impression of mine 
 that he did some business, either in the way of buying or selling. 
 
 Q. Did you not tell us a moment ago that you knew it by reports 
 brought by brokers ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were those reports in writing ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What were they? — A. Purchases or sales, as the case might be. 
 
 Q. What was done with those reports when they were brought in? — 
 A. They were handed over to one of our clerks. 
 
 Q. And entered upon your books ? — A. That I cannot say. 
 
 Q. They were handed over for that purpose ? — ^A. It may have been so. 
 
 Q. Do you not know they were ? — A. Kot to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. What did you mean when you first told us that you did not know 
 that your firm had anj'^ transactions on those days ? — A. I supposed you 
 had reference to the firm as a firm. 
 
 Q. It was asked as to individual members, and as to the firm. What 
 did you mean by saying that you did not know anything about it ? — A. 
 I meant that I did not know, of my own knowledge, as to the firm, or 
 its individual members. 
 
 Q. You now say that you do know that tickets were brought in and 
 handed over to your clerks to be entered on those days ? — ^A. But I did 
 not say that I kiiew for whose account those were. 
 
 Mr. Judd. That was not asked at all. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Did Mr. B. P. Carver buy or sell any gold for your firm during 
 those days ? — A. I cannot say whether he did or not. 
 
 Q. Did W. B. Palmer?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did J. P. Persch ? — ^A. I cannot say whether he did or not. 
 
 Q. Did Chapin, Bowe'n & Day, as a firm, or as individuals? — A.. I 
 cannot say as to that. 
 
 Q. Did E. K. Enos?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How do you know he did it? — A. Only from the recollection of 
 seeing some reports of his. 
 
 Q. Did Wm. Heath & Co. ? — ^A. I saw no reports from them. 
 
 Q. Do you know that there was, or was not, any transaction done for 
 your firm, or any member of it, by Wm. Heath & Co., or any of that 
 firm ? — A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Was any business done for you by Dakin & Gillespie as a flrmi?T— 
 A. I think there was. 
 
 Q. By Lockwood and Davenport? — ^A. I cannot say as to that., 
 
 Q. By Polhamus & Jackson ? — A. I cannot say. 
 
 Q. Among several of those parties that I have named you have ihdi- 
 H. Eep. 31 13 
 
194 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 cated some who did buy or sell gold for your firm on those days ; do you 
 recollect anybody else whom I have not mentioned? If so, name them.^ 
 A. No, sir; I 'do not. 
 
 Q. Had those brokers, or any of them, special instructions or general 
 authority to employ other brokers in the execution of orders given by 
 your firm, or by any of its members ? — A. That I cannot say. 
 
 Q. Did not those brokers, or some of them, habitually or frequently 
 employ other brokers to execute the orders given by your firm ?— A. I 
 cannot say what their custom was. 
 
 Q. What was the nature of the reports made to your firm by brokers 
 executing your orders in the sale or purchase of gold ? Give the com- 
 mittee an idea of what those reports are.^ — A. Sometimes they are writ- 
 ten on slips of paper, and sometimes they are more fully written out, 
 
 Q. What did such a report state ; did it give the names of the parties 
 to the transaction 1 — A. Sometimes they would give the names, and 
 sometimes not. 
 
 Q. Were such reports made daily, and frequently during the day?— 
 A. Not frequently. 
 
 Q. Do you say that no entries are made upon your books of such re- 
 ports, or were entries of the reports made ? — A. I have not examined 
 the books to say ; that is out of my department. 
 
 Q. Do you say that you do not know whether they were entered or 
 not 1 — A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. If they were made, who made them ; that is, who usually makes 
 entries of that kind on your books ? — A. There is no clerk in particular 
 for that business ; sometimes one clerk and sometimes another. 
 
 Q. Name those who usually or habitually do so. — A. Mr. Wm. A. Timp- 
 son sometimes enters them, and Mr. T. W. Eiker sometimes. 
 
 Q. What member of your firm has charge of the clerks who keep the 
 books and make the entries ? — A. Mr. Smith has charge of the clerks. 
 
 Washington, January 25, 1870. 
 
 Witness recalled and examination continued. 
 By the ChaIEMAN : 
 
 Question. Where were you on the 22d of September ? — Answer. I was 
 in our offtce, 11 Broad street, to the best of my recollection. 
 
 Q. Were you there during all the business hours of the day ? — A. Ac- 
 cording to my recollection, I was. 
 
 Q. Where were you on the 23d ? — A. W our office also. 
 
 Q. And on the 24th ?— A. 1 think so. 
 
 Q. Were you in the office of William Heath during either of those 
 days ? — A. I cannot say whether I was or not. I may have been, or I 
 may not. They were pretty busy days. 
 
 Q. What were you doing on those three days ? Give a general his- 
 tory of what you did. — A. I was signing checks ; making up loans; pay- 
 ing loans; writing letters; and business of that character. 
 
 Q. What kind of checks were you signing ? — A. Checks on the bank. 
 
 Q. What bank ? — A. The Bank of the Commonwealth. 
 
 Q. Any other ?— A. According to the best of my recollection, that 
 was the only bank. 
 
 Q. Did you sign any check on the Tenth National Bank during either 
 of those three days ?— A. Yes; I may have done so. That I cannot say 
 definitely, whether I did or not. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 195 
 
 Q. What transactions did your firm carry on during those three days ? 
 State to the committee the nature of the transactions. — ^A. The usual 
 business that goes on — ^paying for stocks and paying for loans that may 
 have been called on any of those days. 
 Q. What kind of loans ? — A. Loans on securities. 
 Q. State the amount and nature of the transactions in gold of the 
 firm of which you are a member during those three days, or any of 
 them. — A. That I cannot say, for I do not know. 
 
 Q. State whether your firm had any transactions in gold on either of 
 those days — ^A. "Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What was the extent of those transactions ? — ^A. That I cannot 
 say. 
 
 Q. State, as near as you can, whether you think it was $1,000, 
 $1,000,000, or $100,000,000 for those three days.— A. It may have been 
 five or ten millions, as near as I can recollect. 
 
 Q. Will you swear it was not more than ten millions ? — ^A. ^o, sir. I 
 cannot swear whether it was more or less. 
 
 Q. Did you have no means of knowing wha,t the extent of the trans- 
 actions in gold of your own firm was 1 — A. My business was in a differ- 
 ent branch, and I paid very little alttention to any portion of that 
 business ; consequently my knowledge of it is slight. 
 
 Q. Did you never make any inquiries of other members of your firm 
 what the extent and character and out-go of these transactions in gold 
 were ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it of no interest for you to make such an inquiry ? — A. I an- 
 swer that question as before, that I attended, as I have usually done, to 
 my department of the business, and not further than that. 
 
 Q. If there were checks drawn on the Tenth National Bank to procure 
 currency on gold account, or on account of transactions in gold, would 
 you not have had those checks to sign? — ^A. I did not sign all the 
 checks that were drawn. 
 
 Q. The checks that you did sign were for what account ? Were any 
 of them for gold ? — A. It is very likely that they were. 
 
 Q. Do you know that they were ? — A. I cannot recollect now. 
 ■ Q. Did your firm deal in gold either in the way of purchasing, selling, 
 or loaning, in the month of August, or iu the early part of September, 
 before the panic ? — ^A. Very likely. 
 Q. But did it?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did your firm keep any books of these transactions in gold during 
 these months ? — A. I cannot say to what extent records were made. 
 
 Q. Do you say that you are not famiUar with the books of your firm, 
 or its mode of keeping accounts ? — A. Only to a very limited extent. 
 
 Q. Do you know that there are books of account kept by any member 
 of your firm for the firm ? — A. I suppose so. 
 Q. Do you know so ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many books are kept as your regular account books ? — ^A. 
 Two or three books. 
 
 Q. What are they ? — A, The purchase and sales book,- a blotter, and 
 a ledger, or something of that kind. 
 
 Q. Any others ; and if so, what ? — ^A. The loan book ; that, I believe, 
 is all. 
 
 Q. Who keeps the purchase and sales book ? — ^A. William A. Timp- 
 son. 
 
 Q. Did he keep it during the months of August and September last? — 
 A. It is my impression that he did. 
 Q. Who keeps the blotter ? — ^A. Mr. Eiker. 
 
196 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Did he keep it during August and September ?— A. It is my Im- 
 pression that he did. 
 
 Q. Who kept the ledger during those months ?— A. /John F. Seely. 
 
 Q. Who kept the loan book?— A. A gentleman who was in our oface 
 then, but is not now. His name is Joseph Stettheimer. 
 
 Q. Was he then a member, or an employ^, of your firm 1 — A. He was 
 simply an employe — a clerk. 
 
 Q. Where is he now ? — A. In the city of 'Sew York. 
 
 Q. Did you keep any different form of account during what is known 
 as the panic week, in regard to your purchases, sales, and loans of gold, 
 than you had kept previous to that time? — A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Do you know that you did not keep a different account — a sepa- 
 rate book ? — A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Do you know of your firm, or any member of it, having opened, 
 during the month of September, what was known as the national gold 
 account ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What member of your firm had charge of that account ? — A. That 
 I cannot say of my own knowledge. 
 
 Q. How many books were connected with that account? — A. Not 
 more than the number I have already named, according to the best of 
 my knowledge and recollection. 
 
 Q. Was there a separate set of books kept for that account ?— A. 
 That I cannot say, as to my own knowledge. 
 
 Q. Is it your understanding that there was a separate set ? — A. I 
 have no understanding at all either one way or the other. I cannot say, 
 of my own knowledge, that there was or was not. 
 
 Q. Then how do you know that there was such an account opened?— 
 A. By hearing it spoken of by the boys in the office. 
 
 Q. Of course, you would not swear that you had not seen the account?— 
 A. It is very possible that I have seen the account. I cannot swear 
 whether I have or not. 
 
 Q. Will you state under oath that you have not seen that gold ac- 
 count ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. When did you first see it ? — ^A. I do not recollect when I first 
 saw it. 
 
 Q. Was it before the 1st of September, do you think ! — ^A. I cannot 
 recollect when I first saw it. 
 
 Q. You can surely remember approximately. Was it before the he- 
 ginning of 1869 ? — A. It was some time in the year of 1869. 
 
 Q. Was it before July ? — A. I should say not. 
 
 Q. Was it before August ? — A. That I cannot say. 
 
 Q. Who showed you that account ? — A. I heard the clerks in the offlce 
 speaking of it. 
 
 Q. What clerks?— A. The stock clerk, Mr. Eiker. 
 
 Q. What was the object of that account ? What transactions was it 
 designed to enter under the head of national gold account ? — A. Transac- 
 tions in gold, as I understood it. 
 
 Q. For whom was gold either sold or bought, or loaned, that was 
 entered under that head of the National Gold Account ? — ^A. That I 
 cannot say of my knowledge ; I do not know and have not known to 
 this day. 
 
 Q. You never have heard for whom gold was entered ? — A. Not to my 
 knowledge. 
 
 Q. For whom do you believe transactions were made under that 
 head? — A. I have not any belief on the subject. 
 
 Q. Is that account yet closed?— A. I cannot say whether it is or not. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 197 
 
 Q. Have any efforts been made to close it ? — A. That I cannot say, 
 either. 
 
 Q. Has your firm never discussed the question of closing it or settling 
 it ?— A. Not with me. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Jas. Fisk, jr., interested in any of the purchases or loans 
 of gold made by your firm during the month of September '? — A. liot to 
 my knowledge. 
 
 Q. You stated in your testimony yesterday that several persons, 
 naming them, brokers, bought, sold, or loaned gold for your firm 
 during those days ; was that gold bought, sold, or loaned for your own 
 account or the account of your firm, or was it for other parties for whom 
 you were transacting business? — A. I never understood that it was 
 bought or sold for the firm ; so far as I have ever know nor understood, 
 it was not for the firm's account. 
 
 Q. For whose account was it ? — A. That I have never known. 
 
 Q. For whose account did you believe then, or do you believe now, 
 that it was bought, sold, or loaned ? — A. I have no belief on the subject. 
 
 Q. Have you never made inquiry of any of your firm about it 1 — ^A. 
 Ifot to my recollection. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to state under oath before the committee that your 
 firm transacted, as you have already stated, large business in the way 
 of gold during those mouths ; that it was not done for your firm ; that 
 you do not know for whom it was done ; that you never have inquired 
 for whom it was done, and that you never heard any of your firm con- 
 verse on the subject of or state for whom it was done ; is that your testi- 
 mony ? — A. That is as I understood it. Of course, I will explain as 
 regards that feature of the testimony that, as I stated yesterday morn- 
 ing before the committee, my duties in the offtee were of a dififerent 
 character, (I think I gave them yesterday morning,) and that those 
 branches which belong to me I attended to, and the other business I 
 have little or nothing to do with. 
 
 Q. Still you have stated this morning that you were present in the 
 offtce during those three days, or during the business hours of those 
 days ; that you were signing checks and transacting the ordinary business 
 of the office ; and with all that, you have heard no conversation of your 
 partners concerning those transactions whatever. What members of 
 your firm were present in the office during those three days, or any part 
 thereof 1— A. Mr. Smith was. 
 
 Q. Who else ?— A. Mr. James B. Bach. 
 
 Q. Anybody else? — A. Not to my recollection. 
 
 Q. Who is the company ? — A. Mr. Bach is the company of the firm. 
 
 Q. Then your full firm is Smith, Gould, Martin & Bach?— A. It is 
 Smith, Gould, Martin & Go. ; Mr. Bach representing the company of 
 the firm. 
 
 Q. And there are no other partners ? — A. There are no other part- 
 ners. 
 
 Q, Were you generally present in the office during business hours in 
 the week previous to the gold panic? — A. To the best of my recollection, 
 I was. 
 
 Q. State now, under oath, as near as you can recollect, the names of 
 the persons who during those three days of panic were frequently in 
 your office ; was General Butterfield there during any of those days ? — 
 A. I do not recollect seeing him. 
 
 Q, Was W. S. Woodward there ? — A. I do not recollect. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. A. Kimber ? — A. I do not recollect as to him. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. A. E. Corbin ? — A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
198 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Fisk?— A. Not to my recollection; I do not recollect 
 seeing him. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Pisk interested in those gold operations of your firm?— 
 A. I have never known whether he was or was not. 
 
 Q. Were William Belden & Co., or any of that firm, interested?— A. 
 Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Were William Heath & Co., or any of that firm, interested ? 
 
 Witness. Interested; how? 
 
 Q. Interested there as a buyer, or seller, or loaner, or as a partaker 
 in the benefits, losses, or profits. — A. I cannot say of my own knowledge. 
 
 Q. Why did you make that inquiry of what I meant by " interested;" 
 did you not mean that Heath & Co. stood in a different relation to your 
 firm in that transaction to some of the other persons whom I named; 
 and, if so, in what different relation did they stand ? — A. No, sir ; I did 
 not wish to be understood in that way. 
 
 Q. Did your firm have any account with William Heath & Co. during 
 any of those days, or arising out of any of those days' transactions ? — A. 
 I cannot say, to my own knowledge, whether it did or not. 
 
 Q. Has your firm settled any account since the gold panic with Wil- 
 liam Heath & Co., arising out of those transactions ? — A. I cannot say, 
 for the reason that that branch of the business has not been in the line 
 of my duty in the oflice. 
 
 Q. It is just to state to the committee at this point that it is in evi- 
 dence before the committee that his firm did transact large business ia 
 gold with William Heath & Co., and did subsequently settle large ac- 
 counts with them. With that statement of the case, have you any 
 change to make in your testimony on the subject 1 — A. Gentlemen, as I 
 have repeated to this committee several times, my duties are separate 
 and distinct from those matters ; some duties are assigned to one mem- 
 ber of the firm and some to another, and one attends to his department 
 and the others to theirs. 
 
 Q. Have you ever heard any of the members of your firm say that 
 they had any transactions in gold with Heath & Co."? — A. Not to my 
 recollection. 
 
 Q. Have you never heard your firm converse upon their business re- 
 lations with Heath & Co., since the gold panic, with reference to gold ?— 
 A. Not to my recollection. 
 
 Q. Do you know that there is, or is not, any entry upon your books 
 showing any transaction in gold with Heath & Co.? — A. I cannot say. 
 
 Q. Did not your partner, Mr. Smith, give orders to Albert Speyers to 
 buy ? — A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Or to sell gold ? — A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see Albert Speyers ?— A. 1 did not see him at the 
 time of the excitement ; I have seen him months ago. 
 
 Q. Did you see him in September ? — A. Not to my recollection. 
 
 Q. Do you know that you did not see him during the week of the 
 panic 1 — A. Not to my recollection ; I think I am right in that. 
 
 Q. Are you, or are you not, aware that on the 24:th of September 
 Heath & Co. were carrying a large amount of gold for your firm ? — ^A. 
 I cannot say. 
 
 Q. You cannot say whether you are aware or not aware of it ; you 
 cannot say that you do not know or that you do know ? — ^A. I do not 
 know whether they were or not. 
 
 Q. Are you aware that they were, or are you aware that they were 
 not ? — A. I have no knowledge either way. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 199 
 
 By Mr. Cobtjen : 
 
 Q. Have you liad access to the books of tlie firm since that time ? — A. 
 Yes, sir ; but 1 have not examined them. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen the name of William Heath & Co., or of Wil- 
 liam Heath, upon those books ? — ^A. I do not recollect. 
 
 By the Ohaikbian : 
 
 Q. During those gold transactions of September, were there daUy 
 footings-up of the state of your firm's gold account, so that you knew 
 each day how you stood ? — A. I did not know how we stood. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether any member of your firm knew ? — A. Mr. 
 Smith may likely have known. 
 
 Q. Was such an account as that kept, and such a riecord made up day 
 by day of your transactions in gold?— A. The usual balances were 
 taken, as is customary in those cases. 
 
 Q. How do you know that they were taken ? — ^A. Simply that it is 
 customary. 
 
 Q. Then you do not know that they were taken, if you only know 
 that it is customary. Do you swear that you do not know that the bal- 
 ances were taken by any of your firm, or were upon the books of your 
 firm during those days ? — A. I know that the stock clerk has charge of 
 those matters, and that it is his duty to see that the business is properly 
 seen to. 
 
 Q. Do you know that he took the balances during those days ? — A. - So 
 far as I know, he did. 
 
 Q. How far do you know ? — A. That I cannot say. 
 
 Q. So far as you know, he did ; but you cannot say how far you know ; 
 then what can you say upon the question of whether he did or did not ; 
 can you say yes or no ? — ^A. Only as I answered before ; so far as I know, 
 he did. 
 
 By Mr. Coburn : 
 
 Q. What do you base your knowledge upon ? — ^A. 1 base my knowl- 
 edge upon the fact that it is part of his duty to see to such business. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Q. On or about the 21st or 22d of September, do yon remember any 
 entrv made upon your books transferring a large, amount of gold to E. 
 K. Willardl— A. No, sir, I do not. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of such an entry 1 — A. Kot to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of such a transaction ? — A. Not to my knowl- 
 edge. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear that on or about the 21st or 22d of September, 
 Woodward and Eamber refused to co-operate any farther with the per- 
 sons who were carrying on the gold operations in your office ? — ^A. No, 
 sir ; I did not, to my knowledge. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Who was the member of your firm who specially attended to this 
 gold business 1 — A. Mr. Smith had more charge of the business. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Gould take any part in these transactions 1 — A. Not to 
 my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Smith ever consult with you about these matters ? — A. 
 No, sir ; not to my knowledge or recollection. 
 
 Q. Were you in the city during this panic ? — ^A. Tes, sir, I was. 
 
 Q. And your duty was to sign checks in reference to gold as well as 
 other tilings ! — A. My duty was to sign checks for the payment of stocks, 
 
200 GOLD PANIC INYESTiaATIOK. 
 
 the payment of loans, and indorsing checks for deposit ; although I did 
 not, of course, sign or indorse all the checks that were signed or in- 
 dorsed, r. -4. 
 
 Q. Does your business, in regard to stocks outside the city, require 
 all your attention ?— A. Yes ; it requires considerable time. 
 
 Q. Does it employ you all the business hours of the day ^— A. ihat 
 and the making up of loans, paying off loans, and the signing ot checks. 
 
 Q. Explain what you mean by " making up of loans."— A. I mean to 
 be understood as borrowing money and paying the loans as they are 
 called. Of course, the money is usually borrowed ou call, and is sub- 
 ject to being paid on call. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the service of injunctions upon your 
 firm, or for your firm, or any legal proceedings in connection with this 
 business ?— A. As to these legal matters, I had nothing to do with 
 them. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. You have no knowledge of them personally ?— A. I had nothing 
 to do with them in any form. 
 
 Q. Did you make any affidavit in the proceedings ?— A. Not to my 
 recollection. 
 
 Q.. Were any proceedings served upon you as a member of the firm ?— 
 A. I cannot say whether there were or not. 
 
 Q. That was not in the line of your business ?— A. It was not in the 
 line of my duties. I am not a lawyer. 
 
 Q. You have no knowledge at all of these proceedings for injunc- 
 tions, &c., in the courts ?— A. Only as I saw them in the daily papers. 
 My want of knowledge is simply for the reason I have already stated, 
 that I had no charge of matters of that kind. 
 
 By Mr. Bukohard : 
 
 Q. What was Mr. Gould's department in the business of the firm ?— 
 A. Mr. Gould had no department at all; he was a member of the firm; 
 his duties were connected with the Brie Eailway Company. 
 
 Q. He was not an active member of the firm ? — A. He was not a man- 
 aging member of the firm ; not in the ordinary sense of the word. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. Were the gold transactions of the firm a separate and distinct de- 
 partment from the other business of the firm ? — A. Not to my recollec- 
 tion. 
 
 Q. They were mixed in with stock transactions and loans and the gen- 
 eral business of the firm ? — A. According to my recollection they were ; 
 yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If they were conducted in that way, and if you took charge of the 
 business that you have already described, did not those matters come 
 before you for judgment and knowledge 1 — A. Not necessarily. 
 
 Q. Did all your knowledge of the legal proceedings come to you 
 through the newspapers ? — ^A. According to my recollection, I do not 
 recollect to have had any interview with my partners upon the sub- 
 ject. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Or with any lawyers or judges in reference to injunctions ? — A. I 
 do not recollect having any interviews with any of them. 
 
 By Mr. BUECHAED ; 
 Q. Who signed the checks ? — A. I signed some checks. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. '201 
 
 Q. Who else ? — A. Mr. Bach signed some checks, and Mr. Stettheimer 
 also signed some checks. 
 
 Q. Did any others sign checks ? — ^A. Smith may have signed some 
 checks also. We all had power to sign for the firm. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Gould sign checks for the firm ?— A. According to my re- 
 collection he never signed a check for the firm ; I cannot recoUect his 
 ever signing a check for the firm. 
 
 Q. What was Mr. Smith's department ?— A. As a general gentleman 
 in charge. 
 
 Q. Had he no particular branch of the business, as you had ? — ^A. Ko, 
 sir: nothing special. 
 
 Q. What is Mr. Bach's department?— A. He is more of an outside 
 man in the way either of lending money, if money is to be lent, or of 
 borrowing, if money is to be borrowed for the business. 
 
 Q. Then you are the only member of the firm who had charge of the 
 department inside ? — ^A. I had charge of the department that I have 
 spoken of. 
 
 Q. Who attended to the rest of the business 'I — A. Mr. Smith had a 
 general charge and supervision of a variety of matters. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge, directly or indirectly, or have you any 
 reason to believe, from your knowledge or otiierwise, that any ofiflcer of 
 the government of the United States, any subordinate or other officer, 
 either in connection with the sub-treasury of New York or with the gov- 
 ernment at Washington, had any relations to your firm in this gold busi- 
 ness '! — A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. You had no communications from any of them in any shape or 
 form ? — A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Have you any reason to believe there were any such relations or 
 communications ? — A. No, sir ; I have no reason to believe it. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see General Butterfield in your office 1 — ^A. I do not 
 recollect that I did. 
 
 Q. Do you know him ? — A. It is doubtful whether I should know 
 him. I never saw him but once, and that was some time very soon after 
 his appointment that I saw him in the street. I think that was the only 
 time that I ever saw him, according to my best recollection. 
 
 Q. K I understand the drift of your testimony, you had no connec- 
 tion at all with those gold transactions on Thursday or Friday of the week 
 of the panic ; you were entirely aloof of them, and were not consulted 
 about them at aU 1 — A. That is the way I wish to be understood. 
 
 By Mr. Bukchard : 
 
 Q. Was there no consultation between the members of the firm prior 
 to that time as to going into the "purchase of gold ? — ^A. Not to my 
 knowledge. 
 
 Q. You have no knowledge of any consultation by members of the 
 firm? — A. Not with me; I cannot answer for any of the rest. 
 
 Q. Did you know prior to Thursday or Friday that gold was advanc- 
 ing, or that large purchases of gold were being made 1 — ^A. No, sir ; I 
 did not. 
 
 By Mr. Cobuen : 
 Q. You say you do not know that your firm was engaged in purchas- 
 ing gold, or had any arrangements to purchase gold, in any amount, 
 'arge or small, before this break ; did you not have any conversation 
 
202 GOLD PANIC INVBSTIGATIOIir. 
 
 before that with any of your partners on the subject of the purchase of 
 gold ? — A. Not to my recollection. 
 
 Q. You never had any conversation about that? — ^A. Not to my recol- 
 lection. 
 
 Washington, January 14, 1870. 
 
 Jambs Beown sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State your place of residence, of business, and your occu- 
 pation. — Answer. My place of residence is New Utrecht, Long Is- 
 land ; my place of business is 54 Exchange Place, New York ; I am 
 a broker in gold and foreign exchange. The firm is James Brown & 
 Co. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in that business? — A. I think since 
 1862. 
 
 Q. State to the committee whether you are acquainted with the course 
 of gold, and with the general transactions in gold in September last.— 
 A. I was, and am. 
 
 Q. Did you or your firm, on the 24th of September, sell large amounts 
 of gold in the New York gold-room ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Please state the amount, the price, and the persons to whom sold 
 
 A. We sold a large amount, and the whole of our sales were made to 
 Albert Speyers. We commenced by selling $500,000 at 150 ; then, whea 
 it got up to 155, we sold $500,000 at 155 ; then, when it advanced to 160, 
 we sold one mUlion at 160 ; and then, after a little lull, we sold a further 
 amount of five millions at 160. I think these were the whole of oiu: 
 sales, making a total of seven millions. There were one or two unimpor- 
 tant sales after that to various persons j but there was nothing of any 
 importance. We sold seven millions in all to Albert Speyers. 
 
 Q. In selling to Albert Speyers did you understand that you were 
 selling to him personally, or to his firm, or that he was an agent for 
 some one else ? — A. I did not know whether he bought for himself or for 
 others; but I took it for granted that he was acting for suflicient prin- 
 cipals. 
 
 Q. Did you, at that time, or subsequently, demand to know for whom 
 he was acting? — A. I did. 
 
 Q. What response did he give you? — A. It was about half an hom? 
 after the last transaction of five millions took place. I was hunting him 
 uj) to get a margin from him ; at last I found him and said, " Speyers, 
 
 I want to know who your principals are ; I want you to make a deposit." 
 He said, "My principals are the clique." I said, "I want names; the 
 clique is nobody." He said, " Come with me." This interview took 
 place in Broad street. He put his arm in mine and led me across the 
 street to the office of William Heath & Co. I should think it was about 
 
 II or 12 o'clock ; it was after the breakdown. We passed through the 
 general office and came to a door at the extreme end ; Speyers walked 
 right in; the door was opened for him; three sentinels were outside, 
 and when I attempted to follow Speyers they pushed their arms in front 
 of me and said, " You cannot go through here." I said, "I have busi- 
 ness with that gentleman." They said, "We are instructed not to let 
 any one go in there except those whom we have notice to admit, and 
 you are not one of them." I was obliged to wait for a minute or two, 
 and then the door was opened by Speyers, and he beckoned me to come 
 in. J. Fisk, jr., and Jay Gould were there, and there were other per- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 203 
 
 sons in the room ; William Belden was also in the room ; but I did not 
 notice any others ; and they probably were strangers to me. I did not 
 recognize the face of any of the others ; 1 should fancy that there were 
 some five or six people there altogether. Speyers addressed Fisk and 
 Gould, and said, " Gentlemen, this is Mr. Brown, of whose firm I bought 
 seven millions of gold on your account. He has demanded a margin of 
 me ; you have not given me any, and, therefore, I refer him to you." I 
 stated to them that they were aware of the rule that when one of the 
 parties having transactions chose to make a deposit, and called upon the 
 other parties to do so, they were compelled to do so ; and that, as the 
 transactions between us were very large, I was prepared to make my 
 deposit, and 1 hoped they would make theirs. To the best of my recol- 
 leption. Jay Gould replied and stated that they could not say what they 
 would do in reference to it just at that time. I simply repeated what I first 
 stated, and he made some remarks to the same effect ; that they could 
 not say just then what they would do in regard to a deposit. Mr. Bel- 
 den, who was in a comer of the room on his knees looking ov^ some 
 statements, shouted out that they could not attend to that just now. 
 Fisk had his coat off, and looked like a bull badly baited, puflQng and 
 blowing at a great rate ; he did not appear to make any remarks. I 
 terminated the interview, which did not last two minutes, by saying, 
 " If you do not make the margin to-night I will have your heads." It was 
 just an excited off-hand remark ; there was no further response ; the only 
 thing they said was that they could not state what they were going to 
 do about a deposit. I held the transactions, therefore, with Speyers to 
 be proved to be on their account ; it was a confirmation of Speyers's 
 statement that these were his principals. 
 
 Q. Did that interview convince you of the truth of Speyers's statement 
 that they were his iwincipals ? — A. It did. 
 
 Q. Did the language of Mr. Gould convey to you a conviction that he . 
 was the authorized principal ? — A. It did. 
 
 Q. Did they, when Speyers made that statement, repudiate it, or say 
 that he was not authorized, or make use of any such expression ? — A. 
 Ifot at all. 
 
 Q. Did they use any expression which indicated a want of authority 
 on his part? — A. None, whatever. There was no other inference to be 
 drawn from his remarks than that they confirmed the statement of Mr. 
 Speyers. What satisiied me that I was aU right in having them as the 
 parties to whom I sold was the circumstance of Speyers being admitted 
 freely to the room, while I was prevented going in, and it relieved me 
 very much to find that Speyers had such backers, because they were 
 presumed to have sufficient means to make good their contracts. 
 
 Q. What subsequent steps did you take to effect a settlement ? — ^A. 
 The same afternoon I went around with my young partner, Mr. Kriiger, 
 my son-in-law, to Pisk's office. They had not put, up any margin. I 
 wanted to have an interview with Fisk or Gould, or both of them 
 There was quite a mob of people in Heath & Go's, office, and the number 
 of guards outside the door of their private office seemed to be doubled. 
 There were a great many big fellows there, evidently prepared to resist 
 any attempt of any one to go in. 
 
 Q. Were they armed? — A. Not that I saw. I said to them, "I am 
 Mr. James Brown ; I have important business with Mr. Fisk or Mr. 
 Gould. I want you to tell him that I am here." They said, " Nobody 
 can see him." I said, " Do you tell him that he is not behaving like a 
 man at aU. He has gone into an important transaction and leaves us 
 here without any satisfaction, and I demand to see him, and wUl see him 
 
204 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 at all risks," (speaking very peremptorily.) Two or three persons came 
 to me and said, "It is no use, Mr. Brown, to make a fuss about it. 
 These fellows will not let you pass, and you may as well keep quiet." 
 I waited there for five minutes, and then went away. That same 
 afternoon, immediately after that, not knowing but that Smith, Gould, 
 Martin & Co., who were the screen to some extent to other operar 
 tors, might have instructions to make a deposit, we went to their 
 office, and Mr. Kriiger, in attempting to go in to ask them if they 
 had any instructions to make a deposit to meet such a transaction, 
 was resisted by some of the clerks at the door, and one of them 
 gave him a blow. Mr. Kriiger is a robust young man, and very good 
 tempered, but he gave the clerk a blow in return and knocked him 
 down. Then a couple of private detectives arrested Kriiger and this 
 other young man and carried them off to the police office, and 1 went 
 after them and explained the matter and got them discharged. That is 
 all the further event in connection with that. We could not get at Fisk 
 or Gould that day, nor into the office of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. 
 That afternoon I consulted my counsel, Mr. Southmayd, and the follow- 
 ing day we endeavored to find Mr. Fisk or Gould for the purpose of offer- 
 ing delivery of gold to them. We applied at the office of Smith, Gould, 
 Martin & Co., and were told by Mr. Smith, of that iirm, that neither oi 
 them was there, and he could not say where they were. We went to 
 Heath & Co.'s office and could not find them there. We went to Albert 
 Speyers to say that it was very awkward that we could not find these 
 men in order to give effect to the transaction ; that we wished to tender 
 them the gold. After we had hunted about and watched in the street a 
 good while, and tried in various offices, Mr. Speyers suggested that we 
 would find them in the Erie office, up in Fourteenth street. I first ot 
 all deemed it prudent to make an offer of delivery to Smith, Gould, 
 Martin & Co., thinking Fisk and Gould might have provided funds with 
 them to complete the transaction. I saw Mr. Smith, and took the pre- 
 caution to take a witness with me, Mr. Christiani. I said I was there 
 for the purpose of offering to make delivery of seven millions of gold to 
 Fisk and Gould, and that I thought it not improbable that their house 
 might have instructions to make arrangements. He affected to pooh- 
 pooh it, and made light of it. I made an angry remark and left him. 
 Then I took the carriage and took Mr. Christiani with me and drove to 
 the Erie office in Fourteenth street. We got there between three and 
 four o'clock. We went up stairs into a square apartment surroimded by 
 a series of offices, with a screen all around and doors through the screen 
 to the offices. The first door we came to we asked a gentleman stand- 
 ing at a table if Mr. Fisk or Mr. Gould were in. He said, "I cannot tell 
 you, but if you proceed along the interior there you will see a man at the 
 end who will probably be able to tell you." There was a waiter sitting 
 in the chair there, and we asked him if Mr. Fisk or Mr. Gould were in. 
 He said he wasn't aware whether they were in or not, because he had 
 been out himself; that they were in not very long ago, but he had been 
 out himself and could not tell whether they were in or not. Just as he 
 finished speaking there was a gentleman coming up, and he said, "That 
 gentleman coming up there will be able to tell you where they are." I 
 stated to him the object we were there for. I stated my name, and 
 said that we were there for the purpose of offering to deliver seven 
 millions of gold, and that I understood he could tell me where Mr. 
 Fisk or Mr. Gould were, as I had not been able to find them down 
 town. He said, "1 will not tell you anything about it." He looked 
 rather sour. I said to him, " Will you be good enough to give me 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 205 
 
 your name?" He said, "No." Then I said, "I suppose we must 
 describe you as the gentleman with the long red beard-." We made 
 a minute of the whole thing. As this colloquy was going on a door 
 in the screen opened and first one came out, and then another came 
 out, mitil finally half a dozen big fellows came into the square apart- 
 ment. After having minuted what I have written down, and Mr. Ohris- 
 tiani witnessing it, I took my departure. Afterward we commenced an 
 action for the recovery of the loss we sustained by their not taking the 
 gold. That action is now pending before the United States circuit 
 court. We sued as aliens, and had a little advantage in that respect, 
 and we are hopeful of a favorable result. At least we feel that we will 
 get justice there, and that no influence can be brought to bear to affect 
 the case. That suit has not been yet tried. It is on the list to take its 
 turn, and we expect it will be reached by the April circuit. 
 
 Q. Does that suit cover that transaction in all its parts 1 — A. Yes, sir. 
 I have remained here since then. My family has been in Europe since 
 June. I should have joined them in September, but I have been ad- 
 vised not to go away, because all sorts of interpretation might be put 
 upon my absence ; and this has detained me. 
 
 Q. Have you stated substantially all your transactions with those per- 
 sons ? — ^A. To the best of my recollection, I have. 
 
 Q. What time of the day was it when you made the first sale to Spey- 
 ers? — A. The first sale was before the official opening of the gold-room. 
 I think it was in the neighborhood of 9 o'clock. The gold-room actu- 
 ally opened at 10 ; but the excitement was so great at that period, from 
 the unlooked-for rise in gold from day to day, that there was a consid- 
 erable gathering before the official hour, and frequently a very large 
 amount of business was transacted. Gold left off the previous evening 
 at 144, and the first thing I knew when I came to town on Friday 
 morning was that gold was at 150. We consulted with some of our 
 friends, and were instructed to sell $500,000. Before I was well out of 
 the room gold was way up to 155, and I received further instructions 
 to sell $500,000 more. Before you say Jack Eobinson, as the saying is, 
 gold was up to 160. 
 
 Q. Without asking directly for whom you sold this gold, I desire you 
 to state to the committee whether any officer of the government of the 
 United States was in any way connected with your sales of gold that 
 day, either as an adviser or as a principal for whom you sold, one or the 
 other way. State generally the character of the persons for whom you 
 sold. — A. Our customers were commercial men, not connected with poli- 
 tics or cliques, and men having transactions in cotton which involved the 
 necessity of selling exchange, and they cannot sell exchange except by the 
 sale of gold. The cotton will not come forward for perhaps a month or six 
 weeks ; but in the calculation of the price which they give for the cot- 
 ton is involved the realizing of the then price of the day for gold. The 
 only way for doing that is to sell the gold and remain short of it until 
 the cotton comes forward, when they can get bills of lading and attach 
 those bills of lading to the exchange, give the exchange to the broker 
 who bought it, get the gold in return for the exchange, and deliver it 
 in payment for the transaction entered into. We had transactions of 
 thalt kind on our books, running from the time when gold was 133, 
 and we had paid, paid, paid through that infernal combination that was 
 entered into up to 144, and the question arose with us : " Is this thing 
 to be perpetuated 1 Are we to stand and be flayed by this unscrupu- 
 lous party, when there is nothing in the political or commercial atmos- 
 phere to account for any rise in gold ? ShaU we let this party go on and 
 
206 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 slay and destroy hundreds of houses -without an attempt to resist them V 
 I myself suggested that a bold proceeding, such as giving them all the 
 gold that they would take, would probably kill the bull. If the bull had 
 been twice as strong I would have tackled him. Hence the sales that I 
 made. The suggestion as to these large sales emanated from myself, from 
 a feeling of deep indignation at the unscrupulous heartlessness of these 
 men, injuring hundreds of bustaess commercial men, in the entire ab- 
 sence of any political or commercial cause of the rise in gold. If the 
 bull had been as strong as twenty elephants I would have tackled him'. 
 I got a sort of general acquiescence to do just as I pleased in the matter. 
 I went into the gold-room on the spur of the moment. I never saw Gen- 
 eral Butterfleld myself. I declare my sincere belief and conviction that 
 not one of the parties who were customers of ours, and who were caught 
 in that bull movement, had the most remote connection, directly or indi- 
 rectly, with any government of&cial, or had the least idea of anything 
 coming across the wires. 
 
 Q. When you made sale of gold at 160, had there been any sale 
 very recently — almost immediately before. that? — ^A. Oh, yes; gold had 
 been recorded at 160 on the indicator at our oflSce. 
 
 Q. But had there been any actual purchases at 160 ? — ^A. I have no 
 doubt that there had been. 
 
 Q. How long was it after the indicator had touched 160 that yon 
 made your sale ? — A. Not one moment. 
 
 Q. At what hour did you arrive at your ofiSce on the morning of the 
 24th 1 — A. If our boat was running at that time at 8 o'clock, I would 
 have got at my office at a quarter before nine. If it left at 8 J, as it does 
 now, I would be in my office at 9^. 
 
 Q. State the places you called on and the persons you saw prior to 
 the sale of that gold. — ^A. I called at no place. I walked straight up 
 from Wall street ferry to my office, and met a partner of Geraffy & Co., a 
 gentleman with a curious German name. I asked him if there was any 
 news. He said that gold was at 50. I went right to my office, and 
 after a short time the first sale was made. 
 
 Q. Did you call at the office of Henry Clews & Co. that morning?— 
 A.. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you call at the sub-treasury 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you call at the office of Duncan, Sherman & Co. ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. State as near as you can recollect, the persons who called at your 
 office that morning. — ^A. I do not recollect any one, particularly; and we 
 had no message from any one. 
 
 Q. Di,d you on that day receive any note, message, or communication 
 from any officer of the sub-treasury ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Prom any officer of the United States ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or from any person representing any government officer ? — ^A. No, 
 sir ; not in the remotest degree. 
 
 Q. Or from any person whom you supposed to be connected with a 
 government officer ? — A. From no person whatever, supposed to be con- 
 nected with a government official. 
 
 Q. Had you any telegram from Washington that day? — A. None 
 whatever. I never had a telegram from Washington in the whole 
 course of my business. I never did a political business at all, but only 
 commercial business. 
 
 Q. Did you do any business that day for Henry Clews & Co.? — A. 
 No, sir ; we never did business for them. 
 
 Q. Did you purchase any gold on that day ? — A. Yes, we purchased 
 largely. After our sales we bought considerably ; after the break. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 207 
 
 Q. Did you loan gold that day ? — ^A. No ; we kept out of that net. 
 We did not borrow gold. If we had done that we might have got a 
 rate of interest that would have invalidated the whole proceeding. 
 
 Q. Were you told by any of the sellers to put any part of the gold 
 down to other parties beside the sellers themselves 1 — ^A. I do not re- 
 collect being told so by anybody, Ijut my partner, Mr. Kriiger, was the 
 party who made the purchases. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of your own, or have you any reason to 
 believe that any of the gold that you bought that day was bought di- 
 rectly or indirectly from any officer of the government of the United 
 States 1 — A. Not the most remote. 
 
 Q. Do you believe that it was so ? — A. No ; I do not. In reference 
 to the gold we bought, we found out after the sales that the persons from 
 whom we bought were agents for Fisk and Gould — ^for the clique — and 
 that those wretches were pouring out gold in the market all the time, 
 finding that the bubble had burst, and when they attempted to repudi- 
 ate their purchases from us, they endeavored to force upon us the gold 
 we bought from them. We took the position that the gold we had 
 bought was their gold, and that if they would receive the gold we sold 
 them, we would receive the gold that they sold us. Our supposition in 
 that respect was subsequently confirmed to the extent of all the pur- 
 chases that we made with the exception of $50,000, because Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Co. affected to sell out gold against us on the 26th 
 of November, and to hold us responsible. We had a letter from Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Co., claiming that they had sold out against us through 
 different parties, between four and five millions of gold. I sent them a 
 reply stating that.we did not recognize any such transaction, and that 
 even if it had been so, it was quite too late to take such .proceeding. 
 We understand the situation and are able to prove if need be that all 
 the gold we had purchased that day came from Fisk and Gould ; and they 
 were trying to force it upon us while they took the position of repudi- 
 ating the seven millions which they had bought from us through Speyers. 
 I say that from my knowledge of the whole transaction. 
 
 Q. Had you any knowledge, directly or indirectly, at the time yon 
 made your sales at 160, that the government was going to sell ? — A. Not 
 the most remote. Iwasnotlikely to have. I have no political connec- 
 tion of any kind. 
 
 Q, Did you believe that the government was going to sell ? — ^A. I 
 long thought that the government was very much to blame in not 
 selling. 
 
 Q. Did you believe, and if so, for what' reason, that the government 
 was going to sell ? — ^A. I had expected for many days back that the 
 government would take some step of that kind, and I felt surprised that 
 the government did not come to the rescue, between the public and a 
 notorious combination that was working so much mischief. It was sim- 
 ply a feeling that the government ought to do it. 
 
 Q. State, if you know, what relations William Belden sustained to the 
 clique? — A. He at one time, I believe, was a partner of Fisk, and he 
 seemed to allow himself to be used by him as a convenience in any 
 shape or form. I 
 
 Q. Do you believe from your transactions with Speyers, that Belden was" 
 really Speyers's principal and not Fisk and Gould? — A. Oh, no; Belden 
 was not Speyers's principal. A short time after the interview that I had 
 with Fisk and Gould, when Speyers introduced me, Speyers came into the 
 gold-room, got up at the president's desk, and the president called the 
 gold-room to order to hear a statement of Speyers. This was on Friday. 
 
208 GOLD PANIC IMVESTIGATION. 
 
 Mr. Speyers then made a few remarks to the following effect : (I was 
 present.) " Gentlemen, I want to make a statement to you. It has been 
 said that I have been selling gold and buying gold on my own account. 
 I want to say to you that all my transactions yesterday were on the 
 orders of William Belden, but that all my purchases to-day were on the 
 order of Jay Gould and J. Pisk, jr., and that I have not bought or sold 
 an ounce of gold on my own account." I felt glad that he made that 
 public statement, because it was a further confirmation that they were 
 his principals. 
 
 Q. Was it contradicted by anybody in the room? — A. No. There was 
 not any contradiction by anybody in the room. 
 
 Q. i)id you make your settlements, or attempt to make them, through 
 the Gold JExchange clearing-house ? — A. No, sir ; and for the following 
 reasons : On that celebrated Friday, the 24:th of September, Mr. Bene- 
 dict, the president of the Gold Exchange Bank, addressed a note to Mr. 
 Townsend Cox, the president of the Gold Exchange, stating that, owing 
 to the very large amount of transactions which had to be cleared, it 
 was necessary that members should be punctual in sending in their 
 clearing statements with certified checks by half past twelve, and that 
 any statements after that would be rejected ; but he recommended, for 
 the purpose of aiding the Gold Bank, and also escaping the inconve- 
 nience with which they were threatened, that, as far as possible, they 
 should effect settlements ex-clearing-house. That day we had to receive 
 one hundred thousand dollars of gold from one of the directors of the Gold 
 Exchange Bank. It was on what was called " a call of gold" that had 
 been purchased by one of our customers some three or four months pre- 
 viously, and for which some consideration had been given. The call 
 was made, and we were instructed simply to act as the agent. The 
 negotiation for the caill was not made through us, but was put in our 
 hands with instruction to receive it to-morrow. The requisite notice 
 was given to the party. We sent four times to the ofBice of the party. 
 He held our ticket to receive $100,000 at 40, but we failed to receive his 
 ticket for the $100,000.. They were evidently in extremities. They were 
 in a state of great agitation. I said to Mr. Kriiger that we had better 
 act on the suggestion made by Mr. Benedict, and make our settlements 
 ex-clearing-house. I went across to the gold-room at once and asked 
 the presiding officer to call the meeting to order; that I wished to make a 
 statement. This was done. I said that in consequence of not being 
 able to receive the corresponding tickets for the tickets which we had 
 given in some important transactions, I had determined to act on the 
 suggestion made by the president of the Gold Exchange Bank to the presi- 
 dent of the gold-room, namely, that we would make our settlements 
 ex-clearing-house, and that if parties would come to our office they would 
 be all settled with, and everything attended to. That was received with 
 cheers, and that was all. We kept out of the gold muddle. On Monday 
 morning when I came to town there was a circular in my office from the 
 Gold Exchange Bank, stating that they were proceeding as fast as they 
 could with clearing, but that the statements of the following parties 
 had been rejected as having failed to comply with the rules. In that 
 list of seven or eight or,nine names was the name of James Brown & 
 Co. I felt very indignant when I saw it, because it might irajAj that 
 we had failed, although the words were only that we had failed to comply 
 with the rules. Having made no statements, they had no business to 
 put our name on the list. At the first meeting in the gold-room that 
 day, I asked permission to make a statement, which was granted. I 
 said we were very much annoyed in seeing that statement put in circu- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 209 
 
 lation, and that if it was not more correct in regard to others than it 
 was in regard to ns, it was not deserving any confidence at all. The 
 vice-president, Mr. Hoyt, remarked that I had a right to complain. A 
 little later that day Mr. Townsend Cox, the president of the gold-room, 
 again commenced reading the same circular with our names in it, and I 
 felt much aggrieved at it, and denounced the Gold Bank as being in col- 
 lusion with the cliqiie. 1 made use of some harsh words, saying that 
 they were thieves and robbers, or something of that kind. 
 
 Q. Did you get out any injunction against the bank? — ^A. I never 
 attempted it. 
 
 Q. Was any injunction got out against you by any parties ? — ^A. No ; 
 but I addressed a letter to the president of the Gold Exchange Bank to 
 this effect : That as the directors of the bank were aware Fisk and Gould 
 had made large purchases of gold, I trusted that they, as trustees for 
 the due fulfillment of all bargains with members of the gold-room, would 
 take care not to pay out any money until they ascertained the agents of 
 the parties who were notoriously acting for Fisk and Gould, so that jus- 
 tice might be done before any money was paid away. ISo notice what- 
 ever was taken of that, and I afterward understood that Fisk and Gould 
 had been closeted with the directors of the Gold Exchange Bank, and 
 had arranged with them generally as to the application of that money. 
 I do not know that. It was only an on dit that was passing around. I 
 thought it a wrong thing to pay out any money at all until the whole 
 thing was balanced up, so that there should be no preference given to 
 anybody. I should also say, that fearing from the exciting character of 
 of the time that the Gold Exchange Bank would come to the grief it did 
 come to destruction, I drew out our balance &om that bank on the 
 morning of the 24:th. 
 
 Q. State whether, in your judgment, the Gold Exchange Bank is 
 necessary for the transaction of business in gold ? — ^A. It is necessary 
 for gambling transactions. It is wholly unnecessary for the legitimate 
 business of the country. 
 
 Q. Do you think that it enhanced the opportunity for gambling in the 
 month of September?— A. I am decidedly of opinion that it not only, 
 enhanced them, but that, had it not been for the fact of its existence, 
 and for its furnishing the facilities that it did for large speculative trans- 
 actions, the disasters that took place never could have occurred. A 
 clearing-house is simply a facility for unlimited gambling of people who 
 are irresponsible. 
 
 Q. Is the Gold Board itself, in your judgment, necessary for the trans- 
 action of business? — ^A. I think it is. I think that it is a convenience, at 
 least so long as we are not on the gold basis. 
 
 Q. State to the committee whether, in your judgment, the gold-room 
 or the gold clearing-house could exist if we were at specie payment ? — 
 A. O, no ; it could not. 
 
 Q. Do not know historically of any such institution in any other 
 country? — A. No. I have had thirty years' experience in finances since 
 I commenced my apprenticeship in Scotland. 
 
 Q. Were you a banker in Scotland? — ^A. I served a regular apprentice- 
 ship in Scotland, and was managing director of a Scotch bank for six 
 years. I was also the general manager of a very extensive English joint 
 stock bank for years. 
 
 Q. And in your experience of finances, you know of no such institu- 
 tion as the Gold Exchange Bank of New York? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. It is an opinion held by some that the operations of this gold 
 clique were simply injurious to the parties concerned in it, and that they 
 H. Eep. 31 — -iA 
 
210 aOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 only were the gainers or losers. State to the committee, from your knowl- 
 edge of the case, whether that is true, or whether its effect reached out to 
 legitimate business in other fields "? — A. The ramifications of the injurious 
 consequences arising from the operation of .those conspirators, commonly 
 known as the clique, were vast in the extreme. There is no section of 
 the country, the trade of which was not for the time being paralyzed by 
 the extraordinary fluctuations in value caused by the great rise in gold. 
 
 Q. You say this from your knowledge, irom business men, and from 
 your business correspondents ? — ^A. There is no question about it. It 
 does not admit of a doubt. 
 
 Q. How long do you think the effects of it were felt ? — A. We are 
 feeling the effects of it stUl. Houses were brought to trouble then that 
 will probably never recover from it. That conspiracy caused more 
 mischief ttian any other thing in the history of finance that I ever 
 remember to have read. I certainly never experienced anything to 
 approach it. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of your own that any officer of the 
 TJnited States government, either directly or indirectly," was concerned 
 or interested in the gold movement in September last? — ^A. None what- 
 ever. 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 25, 1870. 
 Edward K. Willaed sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State your residence, place of business, and occupations- 
 Answer. I reside in Hew Yorkj my place of business is at 9 Broad 
 street ; I am a broker. 
 
 Q. Are you a member of a firm? — A. Yes, sir; of E. K. Willard & Co. 
 
 Q. Were you acquainted with the course of gold during the months 
 of August and September last ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were youengaged in handling gold during those months?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Were your transactions for yourself or for others ? — ^A. For otiiers, 
 acting as broker. 
 
 Q. You continued that business during the month of September, did 
 you?— A. I think my first operations were about the first of September, 
 and continued during that month. 
 
 Q. State for whom you bought, sold, or loaned gold during the month 
 of September. — A. Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. were the principal 
 parties. 
 
 Q. How much did you buy, sell, and loan for them through the month 
 of September, prior to the week of the panic ? — A. I cannot tell pre- 
 cisely. I should think somewhere from ten to fifteen millions, perhaps. 
 
 Q. Did you buy, sell, or loan?— A. I bought principally; I loaned also; 
 I did not sell much. 
 
 Q. Please state to the committee the extent of your transactions during 
 the week of the panic, giving your transactions for Smith, Gould, Mar- 
 tin & Co. separately, as far as you can. — A. I do not think I bought any 
 gold that week at all ; if I did, it was very trifling in amount. After 
 gold went up I did not buy any ; they removed their account elsewhere. 
 
 Q. What did you do that week?— A. I loaned gold for Smith, Gould, 
 Martin & Co. 
 
 Q. Did you sell any gold for them?— A. T did the day of the panic, 
 the 24th. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 211 
 
 Q. How mucli gold did you sell on the 24:tli for Smitli, Gould, Martin 
 & Co. ? — A, I think I had reports of somewhere about twenty-six or 
 thirty millions of sales. , 
 
 Q. State to the committee whether you, yourself, made these purchased 
 and sales for Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., or whether they were made 
 through others. — A. As a rule, I did it through others. I did some 
 myself. 
 
 Q. What portion did you do yourself? — A. Very small; probably. not 
 over five per cent, of the whole. 
 
 Q. How much of the gold bought by other brokers have you ever put 
 down to your own firm, and how much was carried by the brokers who 
 bought it ? — A. I carried probably half the gold in my own name, and 
 the other half through other brokers, in which my name was not used. 
 
 Q. During the time these operations were going forward, did you occa- 
 sionally visit the office of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. ? — A. Frequently. 
 
 Q. You were there every day, and a good many times a day, were 
 you ? — A. The fact is, they visited my office oftener than I did theirs. 
 The business was done mostly in my office. 
 
 Q. With which member of the firm did. you transact your business 
 principally ?— A. With Mr. Smith principally ; with Mr. Gould also ; 
 Mr. Martin, so far as I know, never gave an order. 
 
 Q. What part of the office did you go to when you were in their office ? — 
 A. I had access to any part of it. 
 
 Q. Did you know anything about the manner in which the gold ac- 
 counts were kept in their office ? — A. No ; the only account I know about 
 is the account called the national gold account. 
 
 Q. Please state to the committee what you know regarding that ac- 
 count. — ^A. I do not know anything about it except this : One of their 
 clerks asked Mr. Smith one day whom he should put a certain amount 
 of gold to. Mr. Smith said he did not care. The clerk suggested that 
 he should call it the national gold account. Mr. Smith said, "Very 
 well," and it was kept in that way. That is all I know about it. I know 
 it got to be a very big account. 
 
 Q. WTiat account did you understand was included in that term "na- 
 tional gold account ? " — ^A. My idea is, that as almost everybody in that 
 business has accounts he does not care to have the clerks know about, 
 as to who they are for, they put in an initial, or probably some name 
 like this. 
 
 Q. In these large orders that you gave to buy, seU, loan, and borrow, 
 did you make a difference in the brokers employed ? Did you assign spe- 
 cific duties to them in some general arrangement, or did they all pur- 
 chase, sell and loan, indiscriminately ? — A. I had, I suppose, about six 
 or eight brokers. 
 
 Q. Name the particular ones. — A. I had some brokers carrying gold ; 
 Drexel, Winthrop & Co. were the principal. I had also employed Fear- 
 ing & Campbell, Smith, Eandolph & Co., Wood & Eeick, Osborn & 
 Cammack, Polhaimes & Jackson, Gray, Prince & Co., William F. Liver- 
 more & Co., Kuhn, Loeb & Co. ; these were carrying gold for me. 
 
 Q. How much were they carrying in the aggregate 1 — A. About six 
 millions. There were others who were loaning gold for me. 
 
 Q. Who were they ? — ^A. Osborn & Cammack, Dzouck, Springer & Co., 
 and Howard Lapsly & Co. 
 
 Q. You have stated that the principal firm for whom you were doing 
 business was Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. ; were there others you were 
 doing business for 1 — ^A. Not on the day of the panic. During the previ- 
 ous month, I think, I did a little for others. 
 
212 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. For what other firms ?— A. I did business for a couple of brokers. 
 
 Q. Please name them.— A. For Woodward and for Kimber. 
 
 Q. What was their business ? — ^A. Buying gold. 
 
 Q. During what time did you buy for them ?— A. I think it was some- 
 where in the early part of September. I only bought a few lots of gold 
 for them ; I think I made only three purchases altogether. 
 
 Q. Amounting to how much? — A. To several millions ; probably two 
 or tjiree mUlions. 
 
 Q. Did you buy any of the gold to which you have referred for youi. 
 self, or was it bought Tor customers?— A. I bought none for myself. 
 
 Q. Tou stated in your evidence to the grand jury, in November last, 
 that these persons were acting in concert in reference to putting up the 
 price of gold ; how did you know that to be a fact 1 — A. I knew it only 
 in the way that parties are known to be "bulling" in the stock market, 
 We took them to the bulls ; that is, they bought together, and they 
 might have sold the same day. 
 
 Q. State the grounds upon which you gave that testimony before the 
 grand jury, that these parties were acting in concert. — A. When I made 
 that statement before the grand jury I corrected it before I left the room, 
 by saying that I did not know that they were acting in concert. I sim- 
 ply knew that they bought gold at the same time, and that they divided 
 the gold so bought. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any other brokers who were engaged at that time 
 in buying gold for the same purpose that you were buying for? — ^A. On 
 some days, when we were very busy, they asked me to give some in- 
 structions to other brokers. 
 
 Q. Did not you, during these days in September, regulate the orders 
 given to Smith, Gordd, Martin & Co.'s brokers in regard to their trans- 
 actions in gold? — A. During a portion of these days I gave some orders 
 for them. 
 
 Q. Did you give orders to Dakin & Gillespy ; to Gray, Prince & Co. ; 
 to W. B. Palmer ; to J. P. Persch ; to Van Saun & Co., and a number of 
 others, as to how much gold they were to loan, and at what rates ? — A. 
 I have transferred orders from Mr. Smith' to some of them, and some of 
 these were my brokers at times. 
 
 Q. Did you, on the 23d or 24th of September, have charge of notify- 
 ing the different brokers, acting for the clique, to call up the margins on 
 the gold they had loaned for the clique, to certain figures, according as 
 the market might be ? — ^A. No especial orders ; that is usual and cus- 
 tomary. Of course I saw 1diat my brokers had their margins up to mar- 
 ket rates. 
 
 Q. Did you, on the 23d of September, borrow currency or gold through 
 Frank & Menzesheimer for account of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. ?— A. 
 I made a loan for their account through these parties, or thought I had 
 made it. 
 
 Q. Did you, at various times prior to the 24th of September, borrow 
 currency or gold through Prince and others ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have the management of the orders of Smith, Gould, Mar- 
 tin & Co. for putting up gold ? — A. I did not have any general manage- 
 ment ; I acted on Mr. Smith's orders. 
 
 Q. But your management under these orders was very general?— A. 
 Yes. 
 
 Q. You did not act exclusively under their specific orders ? — A. Yes, 
 I did ; I had my instructions from them. 
 
 Q. You acted in general for them, under their general instructions?— 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 213 
 
 A. I cannot say my power was as great as that ; my instructions what 
 to do were given to me from day to day. 
 
 Q. Do you know William Belden 1 — ^A. I do. 
 
 Q. Was he, to your knowledge, lending gold on the 24th of September 
 last? — A. I do not know anything about his business beyond what 1 
 have here stated. 
 
 Q. Do you know a clerk of William Belden by the name of Stimson ? — 
 A. I do, slightly. 
 
 Q. Did you meet him on the morning of the 24th, and say to him, 
 "Tell Belden to mark up his gold to 160," or anything like that? — ^A. 
 I do not know that I did ; if I did, it was simply to deliver a message to 
 him from some one else. 
 
 Q. You. think it was the delivery of the message, instead of your own 
 order?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Did he report to you that he had not succeeded in finding him, 
 and did you answer, "Damn him, find him then," or words to that 
 effect ? — A. If I did dehver any such message as that it was probably a 
 message from Jim Pisk. 
 
 Q. Please state how that order came to be made. — A. I do not remem- 
 ber it ; the fact is, it was a pretty exciting day. I met Fisk frequently 
 during the day, and I may have delivered a message such as that„ If I 
 did, it was something that Fisk told me to tell him, and I probably ran 
 against him somewhere and repeated the message ; I do not recollect it. 
 
 Q. Did you, after that, meet Mr. Hooker, Belden's partner or clerk, at 
 Belden's office, and instruct his clerk or partner to mark his gold up to 
 160 ? — A. I never saw Mr. Hooker in my life, and I never went into Mr. 
 Belden's office in my life. 
 
 Q. Did you not say, " Smith wants you to mark your gold up to 160 
 right away; don't fool with the Mttle fellows, but call in all the big 
 amounts," or words to that effect ? — A. I have no recollection of it. 
 
 Q. Did any one from Belden's office report to you that parties refused 
 to mark up their gold to 160, and that they were calling on him to put 
 up margins in trust companies ? — A. No, not that I recollect. 
 
 Q. Did you, on the 24th of September, give any orders to Gray, Prince 
 & Co., or any of their firm, or any one rfepresenting them, and what was 
 the nature of those orders? — ^A. I gave them orders to sell, I know. 
 
 Q. Please state to the committee what orders ? — ^A. The orders were, 
 " SeU, sell, sell ; do nothing but sell." 
 
 Q. Sell on the market?— A. Yes; not sell to any man who would noi 
 take it ; to sell gold. 
 
 Q. On whose account ? — A. On my account, at that time ; Gray, Prince 
 & Co. knew no one but me in the matter. 
 
 Q. Who gave you the order ? — A. Mr. Smith gave me the order. 
 
 Q. What amount did you order them to seU ? — ^A. I think the amount 
 I mentioned was five millions. I said, very hastily, " Go and sell five 
 millions of gold on the market, quick." 
 
 Q. Was it sold ?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Did Gray, Prince & Co., or any one representing them, report to 
 you any sales made under that order? — A. They reported aU the sales, I 
 presume. 
 
 Q. Did they, or any one for them, report to you that they had sold a 
 portion of that gold to Albert Speyers ? — A. Yes, I think they did. 
 
 Q. Do you remember a message from Gray, Prince & Co., reporting 
 to you that they had sold two miUions of gold to Albert Speyers ? — ^A. 
 I have some recollection of it. 
 
214 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. What was yoiu? answer ?— A. I told them it was not worth a 
 damn. 
 
 Q. What else did you teU them ?— A. I told them not to sell the gold 
 to Albert Speyers. 
 
 Q. What reason did you give them for that ?— A. I don't know that I 
 gave any reason. I had heard of this thing ; Mr. Prince spoke of it. 
 I told him that as a business man I would not sell to any man who had 
 been buying twenty-five or thirty millions of gold at 60. 
 
 Q. Did you not answer him, " God damn it; you are selling right back 
 to the clique brokers ?" — A. I do not know whether I did or not ; I had 
 this gold in my ofiSice, and I wanted it sold to protect myself, and I was 
 not going to sell to people who I knew could not take it. Albert 
 Speyers was buying, I think, at 160, while one of their men was selMng 
 as low as 135. 1 knew no one could stand that sort of transaction, ' 
 
 Q. You will not swear that you did not say it 1 — A. I wDl not swear 
 that I did not say it ; I have no recollection of it. 
 
 Q. What did you understand Speyers was about ? — A. I thought he 
 was crazy ; I thought he was doing what no sane broker would do, in 
 buying gold at 160, when others were selling for 135. 
 
 Q. Did you think he was doing it by orders ? — A. I did not know, and 
 did not care. 
 
 Q. Did the same messenger who made that report about the sales to. 
 Speyers subsequently report to you again, and ask you whether lie 
 should consider the sale to Speyers a real sale, and did you answer him 
 "IlsTo"'? — A. No; I told Mr. Green (one of the firm of Gray, Prince & 
 Co.) not to count Speyers's sale ; to let him off. I did not want to have 
 any such sale on my books. I may have told Mr, Green that ; I do not 
 know. Of course, having a very large amount of gold myself, I wanted 
 to know what became of it. 
 
 Q. How much was this sale to Speyers that Gray reported about?— 
 A. I do not know; a million or two; I did not take any account of it 
 at all. 
 
 Q. How much was sold by Gray, Prince & Co., exclusive of that sale 
 to Speyers ? — A. I think they sold about four millions. - 
 
 Q. How much did they dehvet on that sale ? — A. I think they delivered 
 about three millions. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear of a suit brought by C. J. Osborn against the 
 New York Gold Exchange Bank in the latter part of September?— A. 
 Yes ; I heard of such a suit. 
 
 Q. In what way were you interested in that suit ? — A. In no way at 
 all, that I know of. 
 
 Q. Do you know the nature of the suit and its object ? — ^A. I think the 
 object was for a receiver ; I am not sure about it. 
 
 Q. At whose instigation did Mr. Osborn commence that suit?— A. 
 That I don't know. 
 
 Q. Do you know the nature of Mr. Osborn's claim against the bank?— 
 A. No ; I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you know when the suit was discontinued ? — A. No ; I knew 
 there was something about that suit. I think Osborn found out after 
 they commenced suit that the claim had been satisfied ; but I do not 
 know anything about it. 
 
 Q. Do you know. the nature of the settlement upon which it was dis- 
 continued! — A. I was interested somewhat in the settlement of the 
 claim for Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., not for myself. I had about half 
 a million of dollars in the bank when the bank shut down. I got the 
 money out gradually as I could during the next day, or it may have been 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 215 
 
 Monday. Mr. Gould was willing to put up a certain amount of money, 
 seventy-five thousand dollars, I think, to guarantee the settlement of 
 some of the brokers, so as to help the clearance at the bank. I happened 
 to have money in the bank, and so I left seventy-five thousand dollars 
 for the account of Goiild. When this suit was discontinued that money 
 was repaid, and I got it. 
 
 Q. How much motiey did you receive under that settlement? — ^A. 
 Seventy-five th<>usand dollars. 
 
 Q. What for ? — A. It was money left there on account for Mr. Gould, 
 and that was simply repaid. 
 
 Q. There were three suits brought against the bank, which were all 
 settled by a discontinuance and by agreement xinder which you received 
 seventy-five thousand dollars ; these suits were brought by C. J. Osbom, 
 by Lloyd, Hamilton & Co., and by Carver & Co.; did you have anything 
 to do with making this settlement or agreement ? — ^A. I was present 
 when it was made. 
 
 Q. Can you explain to the committee how it is that when three dif- 
 ferent persons commence suit against a bank for money due them their 
 suits are all simultaneously discontinued without either of the three 
 parties obtaining any money whatever, whUe other parties, who have 
 nothing to do with these suits, are receiving very large sums of money 
 from that bank 1 — A. I presume the suits were commenced to put the 
 bank into the hands of a receiver. The bank was afterward anxious to 
 have its own receiver ; somebody they could control, and the suits were 
 discontinued to allow the bank to do that. 
 
 Q. Did you understand that these three parties who brought suits 
 really brought them for themselves or for others; in other words, was it 
 a power behind the throne that got up these three suits, so far as you 
 know? — A. That I do not know anything about. 
 
 Q. In the settlement of these suits was the amount for which they 
 had been brought paid ? — A. All of them got their money. In the first 
 place, the bank claimed that Osborn had got his money before he com- 
 menced the suit. In the case of Carver, and of Lloyd, Hamilton & Co., 
 they were promised their money as soon as the suits were withdrawn, 
 and they received it. 
 
 Q. How much did the plaintiffs' attorneys receive in this case? — A. I 
 do not know. 
 
 Q. How much did the defendant's counsel receive? — A. I believe 
 Brown, Hall & Vanderpool got five thousand dollars. The bank's 
 counsel got, I think, seven thousand five hundred. 
 
 Q. How much did the receiver's counsel get? — A. Brown, Hall & 
 Yanderpool got five thousand dollars, as I stated. 
 
 Q. How much was the receiver paid? — A. I think the receiver got 
 fifteen thousand dollars. 
 
 Q. Who obtained the order from the court dated October the 9th, 
 under which all these payments were made by the receiver? — ^A. I do 
 not know. 
 
 Q. Do you know that Smith, Gould & Martin obtained various in- 
 junctions in the latter part of September, restraining various parties 
 from paying certain sums of money, and from delivering or settling any 
 gold contracts which they had for account of that firm? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have anything to do with obtaining these injunctions? — 
 A. I obtained one. 
 
 Q. Which one? — A. Against the Stock and Gold Exchange. The suit 
 was in the name of B. K. Willard, against thei president and ofi&cers of 
 
216 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 the Gold Exchange, and of the Stock Exchange, restraining them from 
 selling gold. 
 
 Q. Why did you get out that injunction? — A. I got it out because 
 the contracts were made under a peculiar law of the Gold Exchange. 
 They were made to be settled through the Gold Exchange Bank by 
 clearance, the balances to be paid. I had fifteen millions of gold to 
 receive, which might be sent in that day, while I had on my books about 
 twenty-four millions going out. I knew that it was impossible for me 
 to receive that gold in any other way than through the Gold Exchange 
 Bank; impossible to receive it by separate deliveries. According to 
 my contracts I was not compelled to receive it by separate deliveries, 
 and therefore to save myself I asked for that injunction, 
 
 Q. Were you instrumental in making a settlement of any of the accounts 
 of the brokers affected by those injunctions? — A. Yes; I helped them 
 all, and helped myself. 
 
 Q. Under whose instructions? — A. Under Mr. Smith's and Mr. Gould's 
 instructions. 
 
 Q. Did any of these brokers make any effort to have these injunctions 
 removed ? — A. Not that I am aware of. 
 
 Q. Where is your place of business? — ^A. It is now No. 9 Broad street. 
 It was at No. 30 Broad street. 
 
 Q. Had your office several entrances from the hall-way ? — A. It had two. 
 
 Q. Had you a private office ?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Did any one else have keys to that private office except yourself ?— 
 A. No; I had a key on the outside. I kept it locked to keep people out 
 of my private office, but I left a key on the outside so that persons who 
 imderstood could enter. 
 
 Q. Do you know the private offices of the president and treasurer of 
 the Erie Eailroad Company in the Grand Opera House in New York?— 
 A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been there? — A. Frequently. 
 
 Q. Were you there on the evening of the 23d of September, the day 
 before the gold panic of Friday, September 24th? — ^A. I was there nearly 
 every day. 
 
 Q. State who was present that evening? — ^A. Mr. Fisk, Mr. Gould, 
 Mr. Smith, and, I think, Mr. Belden. 
 
 Q. What was the object of that gathering that evening; what topics 
 were discussed ? — A. General gold business. 
 
 Q. Please state to the committee as fally as you can the transactions 
 of the evening; what was said and done concerning the gold movement.— 
 A. I did not hear much said about it. I was most of the time in the 
 adjoining room. My conversation was nearly all with Mr. Smith. 
 
 Q. Was any report made there, or any calculations, by the different 
 persons, to see how the whole affair thus far stood ?— A. Not that I 
 know of. 
 
 Q. Can you make any statement as to how much gold had been sold 
 and was held at that time ?— A. I never knew. I was as much surprised 
 as anybody when the thing was over to find that they had so much 
 gold. ' There was nothing said about that in my presence. 
 
 Q. How much, from your knowledge of the case named, was carried 
 at that time by the people who met there on that evening ? — A. I should 
 judge that Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. must have had somewhere about 
 seventy millions of gold. What they had outside, or what Belden and 
 these other people had, I do not know ; it would be a mere guess. 
 
 Q. It was clear to you that Fisk, Gould, Belden, Heath, and these 
 parties were working together on some general understanding or plan, 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 217 
 
 were they not? — ^A. Heath, of course, was nothing but a broker. He 
 was in the same position with myself. 
 
 Q. Was it clear to you that Fisk, Smith, Gould, Martin, and Belden 
 were working together in the general movement ? — A. Fisk never could 
 do business with Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. very comfortably. They 
 would not do business for him. It was a very uncertain thing, of course, 
 where Fisk might be. He is an erratic sort of genius. I don't think 
 anybody would want to follow him very long. I am satisfied that Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Co. controlled their own gold, and were ready to do as 
 they pleased with it without consulting Fisk. I do not think there was 
 any general agreement. 
 
 Q. State the particulars of the plan discussed there that evening to 
 publish in the newspapers the next morning the names of those who 
 were short of gold, and the amount in each case, and the rate at which 
 they could settle before three o'clock. — A. That was one of Fisk's bril- 
 liant ideas. Fisk never could do anything regular. 
 
 Q. State as fully as you can what was proposed. — A. I think, know- 
 ing the large short interest there was, he thought it would be a good joke 
 to publish the names of the parties they were lending gold to, and 
 request them to step up to the captain's office and settle. Of course, no 
 business man would entertain such a proposition for a moment. 
 
 Q. How was the_ proposition received by the persons present, and was 
 anything said against it ? — A. I expressed myself against it, and Mr. 
 Smith said the proposition was absurd. 
 
 Q. What did you state as an objection to it ? — ^A. That it was unbusi- 
 nesslike ; that no man could ever again do business in Wall street who 
 had been connected with such an indecent thing. 
 
 Q. Did anybody else favor it besides Fisk? — A. I do not think they 
 expressed themselves particularly about it. At any rate, 1 did not pay 
 any attention to it at all, and Mr. Smith did not. 
 
 Q.. Was anything said to you about its being unlawful ; that it would 
 be treated as a conspiracy 1 — A. That I do not know. I think Fisk told 
 me he consulted with Sherman and found that it would not be right, 
 and that he had to abandon it. 
 
 Q. What was the plan finally agreed upon to be pursued the next day 
 instead of Fisk's plan ? — A. I think the idea was to put the price up. 
 
 Q. How high was it proposed to put it ? — A. I do not think anything 
 definite was settled on, and I know I was very much surprised when I 
 found they had determined to put it up to GO. 
 
 Q. Was anything discussed as to the possibility of the Treasury coming 
 in to sell gold "? — A. Not that I heard. 
 
 Q. The result, then, was a general understanding that the price was to 
 be put up without agreeing upon any specific price ? — A. I did not hear 
 any named. You can never tell in a corner where it may go to. 
 
 Q. Was it understood that night that the corner was perfect ? A. If 
 
 they chose to make it perfect ; but they did not make it perfect, and there 
 is where they failed, I think, 
 
 Q. What was there lacking to make the corner perfect ? — ^A. Nothing 
 but boldness. 
 
 Q. Was not Speyers bold enough ? — A. When you have a corner you 
 do not want to buy — ^you do not want to buy at a high price. 
 
 Q. What, in your judgment, occasioned the breakdown on Friday? 
 
 A. Of course the final reason was the sale by the Treasury. 
 
 Q. Did it not break before a knowledge of the sale came f-^-A. Yes, it 
 did ; but I think that was an accident. Of course, this is merely a 
 
218' GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 matter of opinion. I think that somebody had that information before 
 the public had it, and used it. 
 
 Q. State what ground you had for that opinion.— A. The boldness 
 with which they sold gold. 
 
 Q. Did they sell any more boldly than Speyers bought I—A. Of course 
 it is a kind of a thing you cannot explain. 
 
 Q. Have you any proof that this information was known in ad- 
 vance?— A. No proof; it is simply my judgment. 
 
 By Mr. Cobtjrn : 
 
 Q. Who was selling gold ?— A. The first man who struck the market 
 with any large amount was this James Brown. 
 
 Q. How long before Mr. Brown's striking the market had there been 
 any similar transaction ? — A. There was apparently no gold for sale. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Brown's movement a surprise to the clique ? — A. They 
 did not know anything about it. I do not admit that there was a clique 
 — that is, I do not know of any ; but if so, they did not know it, of 
 course, as this transaction was in the gold-room. When the transac- 
 tion was made, it seemed to take a weight from everybody's mind. 
 
 Q. Who else sold gold? — A. I do not know. I left right away, I was 
 in the room when the first sale was made at 60. 
 
 Q. What is the rate at which the sale was made by Mr. Brown ?— A. 
 I think at 60. 
 
 Q. State what you mean by a corner in gold ? — ^A. It is like a comer 
 in pork, or any other commodity. Parties buy all there is for sale in 
 the market, and then control the price. In this instance, nearly every- 
 body was short of gold all over the country. I suppose it would not be 
 an overestimate to say that ten or fifteen thousand people in the United 
 States were short of gold at that particular time. 
 
 Q. In regard to this gold account at Smith, Gould & Martin's office, 
 do you know what amounts were entered in that account ? — A. Ko^ sir. 
 
 Q, Have you ever looked over it ? — A. 'So, sir. 
 
 By the Ohaieman : 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of your own that any officer of the United 
 States government, directly or indirectly, had any interest in this gold 
 movement in September ? — A. I have not. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with the officers of the government of the 
 United States in New York, and did you see any man whom you knew 
 or suspected to be such, in any of these offices, or in any way connected 
 with these transactions during these days ? — A. No, sir ; I did not. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any gold being bought by any persons connected 
 with the families of high officers in the United States, or by' Mr. Corbin 
 or by any of his family ? — A. No, I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Corbin ? — A. No, sir ; I do not. 
 
 By Mr. CoBUKN : 
 
 Q. Did you see or send any messages to General Butterfield while 
 this movement was going on ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you in Mr. Heath's office that day ? — A. I was in there 
 several times. 
 
 Q. Did you see any messages purporting to be from Gould or Fisk to 
 Butterfield?- A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Tou knew of no such messages having^ been sent or received ?— 
 A. No, I do not. 
 
 Q. Did you hear Fisk or Gould say anything to you respecting a mes- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 219 
 
 sage from General Butterfleld ? — ^A. No, sir ; I do not think I did. I 
 knew nothing about that part of the operation. 
 
 Q. While you were in Heath's office during that day, did you see 
 Speyers in that office ? — ^A. I do not know that I saw him. • I was in 
 there frequently during the day. 
 
 Q. Did you see Belden in Heath's office during that day ? — ^A. Yes. 
 
 Q, Were not Belden and Speyers there at the same time ? — A. I do 
 not think I saw them together. 
 
 Q. When you saw Belden in there, what was he doing? — ^A. I do not 
 know what he was doing ; he was talking about gold. 
 
 Q. With whom ?— A. With Mr. Fisk. 
 
 Q. Was he buying, selling, or lending for Mr. Fisk ? — A. I do not 
 know. 
 
 Q. Do you know what relation Smith, Gould & Martin, or Fisk, had 
 with Belden that day? — ^A. I always supposed that Fisk did business 
 with Belden. I know that Fisk, Gould & Martin never would do 
 business with him. None of us who knew him cared to do business with 
 him. I would not have taken an order from him or have had anything 
 to do with him. 
 
 Q. Who lost in this movement of September 23d and 24th ? — ^A. I do 
 not know ; almost everybody. 
 
 Q. What do you think the total losses were in these transactions ? — 
 A. I do not think anybody has paid out any money except Smith, 
 Gould & Martin. They say Belden has not. I do not think Fisk has. 
 I think Smith, Gould & Martin have paid a great deal of money. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Do you know of any intimation being received by telegraph from 
 Washington here as to what would be the action of the government 
 previous to the reception of the official notice that the treasury would 
 sell gold ? — A. I do not know, of my own knowledge. 
 
 Q. Have you any reason to believe that such information was received 
 in New York ? — A. No j I do not know anything about it. I only knew 
 what rumors I heard— just as you would be apt to hear them yourself. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about telegraph wires being tapped? — ^A. 
 No. 
 
 Washington, January 25, 1870. 
 
 William J. Woodvtaed sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Please state your residence, place of business, and occupa- 
 ti0,n ? — ^Answer. I reside in Brooklyn ; my place of business is in New 
 York ; I am a stock broker, or more properly a stock speculator. 
 
 Q. Are you acting alone or are you a member of a iirm ? — ^A. I am 
 alone. 
 
 Q. Were you engaged in business as a broker during the month of 
 September last ?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And particularly engaged in transactions in gold ? — A. I had very 
 large transactions in gold at that time. 
 
 Q. State to the committee your share in the general transactions in 
 gold during the months of August and September, and particularly 
 during the panic week, as it is called. — A. I have always operated 
 more or less in gold. I think it was early in August when I returned 
 from th.e country. Having no interest in gold at that time, I bought 
 
220 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 some two millions on my own account at about 32. Subsequently I met 
 Mr. Gould and a gentleman by the name of Arthur Kimber, now in 
 London, and a representative of the banking house of J. Stem & 
 Brothers. I remember sitting in Mr. Gould's office. Mr. Gould was 
 speaking of gold. This must have been in August. Mr. Gould pro- 
 posed that we should buy some gold, and we consented to buy three 
 millions apiece, making nine millions. I went over to the gold-room 
 and bought^of course I could not tell how much — ^purchasing in lots as 
 I could. When I had discontinued purchasing I found the amount of 
 gold I had was about ten millions. This was entirely independent of 
 any other operation, and independent of my own purchase of gold, 
 which I first mentioned, and it had no connection either with what was 
 subsequently called the "pool." Subsequently we bought more, until 
 the amount got to be so large, that, in conversation with Mr. Gould, I 
 told him the amount was larger than I was willing to participate in, and 
 larger than I had agreed to participate in. He subsequently took a por- 
 tion of the gold off my hands, so as to reduce my interest to four 
 millions, which I told him I was willing to hold. These operations must 
 have all occurred in August. I had no interest in the pool. I suppose 
 there was a pool in gold of course. That was outside. The transactions 
 in which I engaged were what we called three-thirds, equally divided 
 between Mr. Gould, Mr. Kimber, and myself, without any reference to 
 any other operations. I repeat that I was interested in no operations 
 except this. I never do a commission business. My operations are aU 
 for myself. I did execute an order for Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., of 
 two and a half millions which I bought the day before the panic. They 
 wanted me to go to Lockwood and give an order to buy five millions of 
 gold. I declined to do it. I told them I would not go to Lockwood 
 without taking a margin ; that if they would give me two hundred and 
 fifty thousand dollars, I would go up and order two and a half milhons. 
 They gave me their check for that amount, which I took to Lockwood, 
 and gave the order for two and a half millions. My impression is that 
 the order was only partially filled. I think only twelve hundred and 
 fifty thousand dollars was bought. 
 
 Q. Of whom was that gold purchased ? — A. I do not remember. They 
 purchased it in the Gold Exchange of difterent parties. 
 
 Q. State anything further you know in regard to these transactions. — 
 A. I have nothing further to state, having been connected with no 
 other transaction. 
 
 Q. Did you settle this gold you purchased yourself? — A. ^o, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it ever settled? — A. It was sold; it was not sold at high 
 prices. The bulk of these four millions of gold I undertook to carry 
 myself was not sold until after the panic occurred, when I had permis- 
 sion from Kimber and Gould to seU. It was late in the day of the panic. 
 
 Q. At what price was it sold ? — A. I think at an average of about 34 
 
 Q. Did you have any difiiculty in passing that gold through the 
 clearing-house ? — A. The clearances were effected through the brokers. 
 I think there was no trouble, however. 
 
 Q. During any of this time did you have any difficulty in making your 
 clearances through the gold clearing-house? — A. I did not clear any 
 myself. I could not tell you whether my brokers had trouble or not. I 
 suppose they had, however, as everybody had difficulty in regard to the 
 transactions of this last day. My transactions were settled satisfac- 
 torily. 
 
 Q. Did you execute any orders on this day for E. K. WiUard ?— A. I 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 221 
 
 never executed any order for E. K. Willard. I did not do a commisssion 
 business. 
 
 Q. Did you give any order to E. K. Willard during these days? — A. 
 I think it is probable that I did ; but I did not undertake to make any 
 record of it. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any officers of the government of the United 
 States having been concerned in or interested in the gold movement in 
 September last ? — ^A. I knew nothing more than what I have seen in 
 the papers of the day, 
 
 Q. You have no knowledge of your own touching that point? — A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know A. E. Corbin ? — ^A. I do not. I never saw him, and 
 I had nothing to do with this clique movement, as it was called. 
 
 Q. When you went into this movement with Mr. Gould was it the 
 imderstanding between you and him that gold was to be put up ? — ^A. 
 We of course expected it would go up, or we should not have made the 
 purchase. 
 
 - Q. Did Mr. Gould say to you, in any form, that it was the purpose to 
 put gold up ? — ^A. No ; we thought the natural tendency of gold would 
 be to rise. This was the kind of operation I had made a good many 
 times. If I thought that buying a mOlion of gold would affect the price 
 I would go in and buy it. It was simply a specidation. 
 
 By Mr. Cobubn : 
 
 Q. You spokeof having ten millions on hand ; how much did you buy 
 during the time you were attempting to raise the price of gold 1 — A. I 
 do not think I went into the gold-room personally but two or three times. 
 After the ten millions were bought other purchases were made, until, as 
 I have already stated, the amount was larger than I was willing to 
 carry. I think the aggregate amount was about eighteen millions, and 
 the three-third account we had would give me about six millions, which 
 was subsequently reduced to four. 
 
 Q. How much gold was actually in the market at that time 1— A. Out- 
 side of the sub-treasury, about fourteen millions. 
 
 Q. In whose possession was it? — A. It was in possession of the foreign 
 bankers, and in possession of the banks. 
 
 Q. Does that fourteen mUlions cover the gold certificates and all ? 
 
 A. Yes ; I think that was all of the available gold in the market. 
 
 Q. Was there any gold of any amount elsewhere iu the United States, 
 in other cities ? — ^A. There must have been ; for gold came to New York 
 as the price advanced. 
 
 Q. Was there an effort made to get gold from San Francisco at that 
 time 1 — A. Not that I am aware of. There were some transmissions of 
 gold to the East through the Treasury Department from San Francisco 
 about that time. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether there were any considerable amounts of 
 gold in the banks outside of New York ?— A. I do not. I suppose there 
 were small amounts, but perhaps not very considerable. 
 
 Q. Where should you say the greater part of the gold in the country 
 at that time was ? — ^A. It was iu the sub-treasuxy, and iu the banks of 
 New York. 
 
222 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 25, 1870. 
 HiEAM 0. EoGEES sworn and examined. 
 
 By the ChAIEMAN : 
 
 Question. State your place of residence, your place of business, and 
 your occupation? — Answer. I reside in New York City. My place of 
 business is 58 Broaidway. I am assistant cashier in the Gold Exchange 
 Bank. 
 
 Q. Were you assistant cashier in the month of September ?— A. I was 
 at that time acting as paying teller, though I was assistant cashier. 
 
 Q. State to the committee what was the average daily amount of 
 clearances done by your clearing-house department? — A. I think it 
 averaged eighty millions a day ; perhaps more than that. 
 
 Q. What had it been doing the year previously ? — A. It averaged up 
 to that time seventy millions a day for the year. The year before it 
 was from fifty-eight to sixty millions a day. Last year was the highest 
 average we ever had. 
 
 Q. State what your clearings were the week of the panic ? — A, A 
 thousand millions for the week. 
 
 Q. What was the highest amount any one day ? — ^A. Three hundred 
 and twenty-five millions. That was the day before the breakdown. 
 We never made up the clearings for the 24th. We cleared successfully 
 on the 23d. 
 
 Q. What was the amount of the balance ? — A. On the 23d the gold 
 balance, I think, was about five millions, and the currency balance three 
 millions. I speak from recollection. It was very near that. 
 
 Q. How did that proportion of gold and currency to the total clear- 
 ings compare with the proportion on usual days ? — A. About the same. 
 We often have a large balance with a small clearing, and vice versa. 
 The one is no indication of the other. 
 
 Q. Was your business of the 23d transacted in the usual way ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. There was no difference. We were a little later, perhaps 
 about half an hour, but we got through without any trouble. 
 
 Q. All the ordinary rules of the clearing-house were observed on the 
 23d?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. State to the committee why you could not or did not clear the 
 transactions of the 24:th ? — A. There was a variety of reasons and compli- 
 cations. In the first place the business was enormous. I will not under- 
 take to say how much it would be if cleared — ^probably not less than 
 five hundred millions. But that could have been done if the brokers 
 had made up their accounts properly and sent them in. On that day, 
 however, some of the heaviest dealers failed to send in any statements 
 whatever to the bank— shaving already exchanged orders with other 
 dealers, and their transactions appeared on these other dealers' accounts. 
 When we got through we found that we were very wide of our balance, 
 and everything was thrown out of gear. We had such an enormous 
 amount of money on hand about half-past two o'clock that we undertook 
 to pay on approximate balances so as to get rid of the money. I had 
 in my desk nearly ten millions of gold certificates alone. But if all the 
 balances had come in, the bank would have cleared well enough. 
 
 Q. Was there no reason on account of injunctions ? — A. No; not on 
 that day. 
 
 Q. Were there injunctions subsequently served on the bank ? — A. Oh, 
 yes ; they came in there by the hat full, until finally we did not know 
 what to do. We were enjoined against performing almost every act. 
 
 Q. There was an order of court appointing a receiver — did you ever see 
 that «r4pr ! — A. Yes, mi in- the case of Osborn, 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 223 
 
 Q. Was it preceded by an injunction ?— A. No, sir. The first that we 
 knew of it was the receiver coming in to take possession. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether there was a complaint that preceded that 
 order ? — A. Yes, sir ; there was a complaint. (Witness was directed to 
 furnish the committee with a copy of the complaint.) 
 
 Q. Was there any hearing before the coart, or was there any exhibit 
 made on the part of the bank, by its attorneys or officers, against the 
 order appointing a receiver 1 — ^A. Not until after the receiver was ap- 
 pointed. We had no opportunity. 
 
 Q. Was there a subsequent hearing before the court ? — A. Tes. A 
 temporary receiver was appointed, Mr. Brown, and then we were directed 
 to show cause why the receiver should not be made permanent, which 
 we did, and another receiver was appointed. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any orders given by the court directing the bank 
 or the receiver to pay specific sums to different persons ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were such orders the result of a hearing of both sides ? — A. That 
 I cannot answer. 
 
 Q. Did the offtcers of the bank make any agreement to the effect de- 
 scribed in the orders'? — ^A. Not that 1 am aware of. Mr. Benedict may 
 have done so. 
 
 Q. When did the bank resume its operations after the breakdown ? — 
 A. On the 22d November. 
 
 Q. Is it now continuing its operations in the usual way? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What is the average amount of its clearances now ? — A. Nearly 
 forty millions a day since we started. 
 
 Q. Your transactions have dropped off nearly one-half since the gold 
 panic? — A, Yes. 
 
 Q. What do you understand to be the cause of the decline ? — A. A 
 great many persons were severely injured in the gold panic, who are not 
 doing business now, and those who are doing business are doing it very 
 cautiously. There is a reduction of the volume of business on the Gold 
 Exchange. Then there are some people who have a prejudice against 
 the bank, and who do not clear at all ; but they are very few, I think. 
 
 Q. During the 24th were there what is called approximate balances 
 made out, and settlements made on those approximate balaiices ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. For instance, if we apparently owed a man on his statement 
 $700,000, we gave him $500,000 on account, and agreed to settle his 
 statement afterward. (Witness was directed to furnish the committee 
 with an account of those approximate balances, and the amounts paid 
 thereon. He subsequently furnished the account of currency and gold 
 checks paid on the 24th September, and hereto annexed.) 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Is the Gold Exchange Bank a national bank ? — ^A. No, sir ; it is a 
 State bank, organized under the free banking law of New York. The 
 clearing-house part of it is merely an undertaMng of the bank, by agree- 
 ment between the bank and the gold board, that we should do the clear- 
 ing, for a consideration. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Was there a meeting of the directors of the bank on the 24th or 
 25th of September ? — ^A. There was not any formal meeting ; the di- 
 rectors were all there. 
 
 Q. Was there any consultation between the ofBcers of the bank and 
 directors ? — A. Yes ; they were consulting most of the time. They were 
 there all together. 
 
 ft. Wejpfi there admitted to those consultations any of the brokers who 
 
224 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 were concerned in the Wall street movement, ou the 24th or 25th ? — ^A. 
 I do not know that there were on the 24th, although most of the promi- 
 nient brokers were there that day and afterward. But in the consul- 
 tations between the directors, I do not think, that any brokers were 
 present — not on the 24th, at any rate. 
 
 Q. Did the directors, or any oflflcer of the bank, assent to the sugges- 
 tion of having a receiver appointed ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it by their procurement, knowledge, or consent that the first 
 receiver was appointed ? — A. No, sir ; we had no knowledge of it what- 
 ever. I mistrusted the thing, and suggested a remedy as late as the 
 Sunday night succeeding this Friday ; but they all said that it could not 
 be possiblft ; that it was the interest of everybody not to have a receiver 
 appointed. But I was still of opinion that it would be the case, and 
 that it would come from the quarter from which it did. 
 
 Q. What quarter do you refer to — the clique ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What was the total loss of the bank as the result of the whole gold 
 transactions f — ^A. As it stands now we are out about $480,000, but we 
 have claims that we may get back from $100,000 to $175,000. 
 
 Q. What did that loss consist of ? — A. Clean cash. 
 
 Q. Lost to whom and how ? — A. In this way : The gold came into 
 the bank on these balances, and was put down all the way from 145 to 
 160. The parties to whom it was going could not take it. They failed 
 on us, and we found ourselves, without being in the market, long of gold, 
 as it is termed. That is, we had gold that cost us from 145 to 160, and 
 we were obliged to sell at 130 to settle up affairs. 
 
 Q. Was that loss which you have stated aside of the expenses of re- 
 ceiver ? — A. No ; that includes everything. 
 
 Q. How much was paid as the expense of receivers ? — A. The expenses 
 of receivers and attorneys, and all the fees, were just about $100,000. 
 
 Q, How much did the bank pay to the receivers ? — A. Each receiver 
 got $15,000. 
 
 Q. How long did they serve ? — A. The first one served three or four or 
 five days, or maybe a week. He did nothing but lock up the gold and 
 put a deputy sheriff or somebody in charge. 
 
 Q. Who was he ? — ^A. He was Mr. Brown, of the firm of Brown, Hall 
 & Vanderpoel. 
 
 Q. Was that a commission or percentage, or just a certain sum?— 
 A. The court directed so much to be paid. 
 
 Q. Did the officers of the bank consent to pay that amount ? — ^A. They 
 were not consulted about it. 
 
 Q. Were they not consulted through their attorneys, as to the amount 
 of payment to the receiver 1 — ^A. Not to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Would you have known it if it had been so 'I — A. I believe I 
 would. 
 
 Q. Who was the other receiver 1 — A. The other receiver was Conrad 
 M. Jordan, the cashier of the Third National Bank. 
 
 By. Mr. Cobtjkn : 
 Q. Who is Mr. Brown 1 — A. He is a member of the firm of Brown, 
 Hall & Vanderpool, attorneys. One of the firm, Mr. A. Oakey Hall, is 
 the mayor of the city of New York. The firm of Brown, Hall & Van- 
 derpool had, besides, $5,000 as counsel fees. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. What other moneys did the bank pay for attorneys' fees besides 
 the $5,000 to that firm "?— A. It paid $25,000 each to four or five lawyers ; 
 $2,500 or $5,000 went to Mr. Dudley Field. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 225 
 
 Q. In short, did the bank pay all the sums ordered by the court to be 
 paid ? — ^A. Tes, sir. The receiver took possession of the money and re- 
 turned these payments as part of the money. 
 
 Q. Has the bank anything on its books except the report of the re- 
 ceiver, to show the payment of this $100,000 1 — A. Not at all. We had 
 nothing to do with these disbursements. The receiver was directed to 
 make these payments, and in rendering his account he turned them in. 
 
 By Mr. JONES: 
 I Q. From what fund was all the money paid ? — ^A. The receiver came 
 to the bank and took the money, and made these payments. They were 
 paid out of the capital and assets of the bank. The receiver when he 
 came in took possession of everything in the bank, about $500,000, and 
 out of that money he made all these payments, and turned the balance 
 over to the bank. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. What was the amount of money received by Mr. Brown as re- 
 ceiver ? — ^A. About half a millioii of doUars. 
 
 Q. And assets? — A. It was all money— gold and currency — ^the total 
 balance being about $500,000 in currency. 
 
 Q. Did the receiver take charge of the whole banking concern ? — A. 
 Certainly. 
 
 Q. And of the clearing-house department ? — ^A. The bank is a bank 
 alone. The clearing department is simply a clerical duty that it per- 
 forms ; it has no assets at all. 
 
 Q. The clearing department is not such a separate department as to 
 h^ve assets of its own? — A. Ko, sir; it is simply a department of the 
 bank. 
 
 Q. And the receiver had no other responsibility but to take that money 
 and keep it safe, subject to the order of the court? — A. That is all that 
 the first receiver did. 
 
 Q. Did he put ofi&cers in the bank ? — A. He came and took possession of 
 the money and put a guard over it one day, and then had it removed to- 
 the Broadway Bank. 
 
 Q. Did the receiver give a bond? — A. The first one gave a bond for 
 $10,000. The other gave bonds for $100,000. I believe Mr. Brown did 
 not attempt, and it was not understood that he was, to settle up the af- 
 fairs of the bank. He was simply to hold this property ad interim un- 
 til the receiver was made periaanent. 
 
 Gold checks paid on account Sejatember 24, 1869, New York Gold Exchange Bank. 
 
 R 
 
 14li 
 
 143 
 
 64 
 
 96 
 
 190 
 
 361 
 
 210 
 
 58 
 
 330 
 
 273 
 
 80 
 
 93 
 
 161 
 
 280 
 
 204 
 
 Dealers' name. 
 
 Geo. H. Bend 
 
 MoKim Bros. & Co 
 
 Lockwood & Co 
 
 G. H. & H. Eedmond. . . 
 W. F. LiTCi-more & Co . 
 
 Lan^e, Boell & Co 
 
 Geiston & Bussing . 
 
 Oddio&Co 
 
 Lounsbery & Fanshner 
 
 Julian & Co ^ 
 
 L. Von Hoffmann & Co. 
 
 Baker & Bushong 
 
 Ed. Sweet & Co 
 
 Lewis Daniel & Co 
 
 Dabney, Morgan & Co. 
 
 $40, 000 00 
 20, 000 00 
 
 150, 000 00 
 
 300, 000 00 
 75, 000 00 
 
 126, 500 00 
 3D, 000 00 
 30, 000 00 
 
 105, A)0 00 
 S, 000 to 
 97, 500 00 
 40, 000 00 
 50, 000 00 
 15, 000 00 
 10, 000 00 
 
 
 Dealers' name. 
 
 Davidson & Jones 
 
 C. S. Sloane & Co 
 
 Watts & Eedmond 
 
 J. X Bums 
 
 A. 1. Seton cfc Co . . . ; . . 
 Winslow, Lanier &. Co 
 DuMieine, Cox & Co. : . 
 
 Wm. Heath &Co 
 
 J.Eobb,Klng&Co.... 
 Dzondi, Spinger & Co . 
 
 Cone & Aufermann 
 
 G. H. & H. Eedmond. . 
 
 Total 
 
 Amount. 
 
 300, 
 150, 
 40, 
 200, 
 510, 
 89, 
 15, 
 30, 
 20, 
 85, 
 108, 
 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 074 00 
 354 45 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 424 87 
 
 2, 546, 853 32 
 
 H. Ben. 31 15 
 
 H. C. KOGEES, J.sst. Cashier. 
 
226 GOLP PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Currency checks paid on account September 24, 1869, New Torlc Gold Exchange Bank. 
 
 
 331 
 331 
 182 
 176 
 310 
 113 
 130 
 
 74 
 135 
 9 
 244 
 172 
 140 
 
 30 
 4 
 
 75 
 165 
 
 68 
 
 1 
 
 263 
 
 64 
 196 
 157 
 9 
 346 
 1 
 307 
 
 39 
 331 
 144 
 395 
 
 90 
 
 38 
 393 
 194 
 361 
 
 19 
 327 
 
 57 
 
 57 
 322 
 
 93 
 105 
 272 
 
 Name. 
 
 Dabin & G-illespy 
 
 Do 
 
 Morewood & Co 
 
 "Whittemore & Co 
 
 Hatch, Eoote & Co 
 
 Trevor & Colgate 
 
 Clark, Dodge & Co 
 
 Marvin Bros. & Co 
 
 A. "WmterhofE 
 
 Gr. C. Magoim 
 
 E. L. Cutting, jr., & Co. . 
 
 Dater & Timpson 
 
 H. A. Heiser's Sons 
 
 D. E. Jonje & Co 
 
 C. Ashworth 
 
 Marx &Co 
 
 Vermilye &Co 
 
 Leland Bros. & Co 
 
 J. & W. Seligman & Co . 
 
 Wood c& Eeiok 
 
 Lockwood & Co 
 
 "W. F. Livermoro & Co. . 
 
 J. B. Tilford & Co 
 
 G. C. Magoim 
 
 Duff, Timmerman & Co 
 J. & "W. Seligman & Co . 
 
 Jay Cooke & Co 
 
 Ketchum, Phipps & Bro 
 
 Dakin & Gillespy 
 
 Manning & De Forrest. . 
 Duncan, Skerman & Co . 
 
 Northrup & Chick 
 
 RH. Foote 
 
 Hodgskin, Kandall & Co. 
 
 P. Hayden 
 
 Lange, Boell & Co 
 
 Baker Sl Graeff. , 
 
 E.K.WaUard 
 
 Wm. Heath & Co 
 
 Do 
 
 H. T. Godet cfc Co 
 
 Baker & Bushny 
 
 Philip Speyer & Co 
 
 Julian & Co 
 
 "W.C.Mumford 
 
 Amount 
 
 50, 
 
 30, 
 
 120, 
 
 200, 
 
 600, 
 
 400, 
 
 280, 
 
 10, 
 
 305, 
 
 50, 
 
 71, 
 
 140, 
 
 33, 
 
 125, 
 
 100, 
 
 300, 
 
 53, 
 
 500, 
 
 50, 
 
 200, 
 
 61, 
 
 40, 
 
 100, 
 
 60, 
 
 75, 
 
 168, 
 
 50, 
 
 175, 
 
 25, 
 
 100, 
 
 200, 
 
 20, 
 
 30, 
 
 140, 
 
 20, 
 
 30, 
 
 31, 
 
 385, 
 
 100, 
 
 4, 
 
 67, 
 
 25, 
 
 3, 
 
 175, 
 
 787 50 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 
 000 m 
 
 000 00 
 000 CO 
 000 00 
 
 goo 00 
 000 00 
 
 OOO 00 
 562 50 
 
 000 00 
 
 750 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 
 000 00 
 
 512 50 
 
 noo 00 
 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 
 000 00 
 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 500 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 500 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 000 00 
 
 
 Nome. 
 
 Wotherspoon & Co 
 
 C. Ashworth 
 
 Vermilye & Co 
 
 Morton, Bliss & Co 
 
 E. Bell & F. Gundey 
 
 Fiskcfe Hatch 
 
 Dater & Timpson 
 
 Clark, Dodge & Co 
 
 Geo. C. Magoun 
 
 Do 
 
 Pearl & Co 
 
 Geo. C. Magoun 
 
 Watts & iSsdmond 
 
 Dibble & Gambles 
 
 A. M. Ferris &. Bro 
 
 Laranbury & Bro 
 
 Brown Bros. & Co 
 
 F. P. James & Co 
 
 Gelaton &. Bussing 
 
 W.C.Taylor 
 
 E. C. Benedict 
 
 Ecid. Leo & Content . . . 
 
 F. Grant ; 
 
 L.E.Schultz 
 
 C. Ungre &.Co 
 
 Tanner & Co 
 
 John Pondir 
 
 P. M. Myers & Co 
 
 TaSissig, Fisher & Co.. . 
 
 Cone & Aufermann 
 
 Otten & Taege 
 
 S.D.Da\da ,. 
 
 J. E. Gimbemat 
 
 Freeman, Petty & Bond 
 
 J. P. Perscli 
 
 F. W. Jackson 
 
 T.Eeed&Co 
 
 Ward & Co 
 
 W. C. Mumford 
 
 W. B. Sancton 
 
 T. Braine & Co 
 
 Dzondi, Spinger & Co . . 
 
 Total 
 
 Amount. 
 
 *34,200 00 
 59, 990 59 
 10, 106 25 
 30, 000 CO 
 
 300, 000 00 
 17, 062 50 
 41, 906 25 
 
 100, 000 00 
 
 ICO, 001) 00 
 
 300, 718 75 
 28, 323 00 
 60, OOO 00 
 75, 000 00 
 6, 181 25 
 14, 300 00 
 16, 300 00 
 56, 925 00 
 22, 173 00 
 29, 233 00 
 15, 702 50 
 14, 375 00 
 30, 800 00 
 23, 715 00 
 6, 498 75 
 
 104, 154 81! 
 16, 359 09 
 
 460, 443 75 
 9, 755 00 
 15, 987 50 
 
 112,226 12' 
 31, 456 25 
 25, 458 27 
 33, 962 50 
 29, 512 50 
 33,318 75 
 13, 791 05 
 57, 924 31 
 29,812 50 
 90, 581 23 
 9, 100 00 
 10, 9T8 99 
 
 114, 756 25 
 
 8,228,258 88 
 
 H. C. EOGEES, Asst OasMer. 
 
 New Yokk Gold Exchange Bank, 
 58 Broadway and 29 Nevi street, New York, January 28, 1870. 
 Deak Sir : I forward herewith statement showing payments made by this hank 
 ;l>oth in gold and currency, on September 24, 1869. The other documents you desired, 
 .Tiz., the complaint in the case of Osborn and others vs. the Bank, Mr. Eussell sent you 
 d-aring my absence. I regret that you did not receive them before I left Washington, 
 as I could have shown that Osborn really had no claim on the bank at the time his 
 complaint was made, nor has he ever made any claim against us since. 
 Very respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 H. C. EOGEES, Assistant Cashier. 
 Hien. J. A. Gakfield, Chairman, fc. 
 
 Washington, JanvMry 26, 1870. 
 John W. Magexjdbe sworn and examined. 
 
 By Mr. Smith: 
 Question. State your residence and occupation. — Answer. I liveta 
 Georgetown, and am employed in the Treasury Department, in the 
 office of the Comptroller of the Currency. I have charge of the division 
 of reports in the office of the Comptroller of the Currency. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 227 
 
 Q. State to the committee ^rhether you were ordered by the Secrs- 
 taxy of the Treasury to visit Hew York on the week of the gold panic 
 for any purpose; and if so, what? — ^A. The Comptroller of the Currency 
 came to my house on the 23d of September, and told me that I had to 
 go to New York. He handed me this order: 
 
 Tkeasury Dbpaetment, 
 Office of Comptroller of the Currency, 
 
 Washington, September 23, 1869. 
 Albert U. Wyman, John P. Bigelow, and John W. Magruder are hereby appointed 
 and authorized to examine the Tenth National Bank of the city of New York, with 
 power to make a thorough investigation of its affairs, and to examine any of the officers 
 or agents thereof under oath, as provided in section fifty-four of the national currency 
 act. 
 Withess my hand and official seal, this 23d day of September, 1869. 
 [SEAL.] H. E. HULBUED, 
 
 Comptroller of Currency. 
 
 Countersigned and approved. 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, 
 Secretary of the Treasury. 
 
 We reached New York very early on the morning of the 24th, having 
 left here in the night train on the 23d. Before the Tenth National 
 Bank had its doors open we went in there. We were there in time to 
 see the vaults opened, and we did see them opened. We counted the 
 cash in the bank to determine the object of our visit, which was to 
 determine whether the bank was engaged in locking up greenbacks or 
 not. 
 
 Q. Did you take possession of the bank; was that included in the 
 order? — A. It was included in this way, that everything in the bank 
 was subject to our order. During the examination the business of the 
 bank went on; that is, when we got through counting the cash we gave 
 it up to the tellers to go on with their daily business. 
 
 Q. State the result of the examination. — A. The result of the exam- 
 ination satisfied me that the bank was not locking up greenbacks, but 
 it was impossible to tell whether or not it was assisting others in doing 
 so. There was no. immense amount of greenbacks found in the bank to 
 create a scarcity of money. The books of the bank were aU balanced, 
 and there was not a disproportionate amount of cash on hand. 
 
 Q. Was the report of your examination made to the ComproUer of 
 the Currency? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you participate in the report? — ^A. I made it, and the other 
 gentlemen signed it. 
 
 (Witness presents his written report, a copy of which appears in the 
 testimony of Mr. Bigelow.) 
 
 Q. At what time did you complete the examination? — A. On Satur- 
 day, the 25th of September; I do not recollect exactly at what hour. 
 
 Q. Did you receive any orders from the Comptroller of the Currency 
 or the Secretary of the Treasury to suspend the examination ? — A. Not 
 of that bank. 
 , Q. Did you of any bank ? — A. I had received papers ordering an ex- 
 amination of other banks, and on the 25th of September I received a 
 telegram of which the following is a copy : 
 
 [Telegram.] 
 
 WASHiNGTOlsr, SeptenCber 25, 1869. 
 John W. Magkudbr : 
 
 Call at National Currency Bank. Examine any bank that you think needs it. 
 Probably you had better remain until Monday night. 
 
 H. K. HULBUED, Comptroller. 
 
228 GOLD PANIC nSrVESTIGATION. 
 
 Before any action was taken on that order it was rescinded by a sub- 
 sequent telegram directed to myself or Mr. J. J. Knox, of which the 
 following is a copy : 
 
 [Telegram.] 
 
 "Washington, September 26, 1869. 
 John W. Mageudbr or Jno. Jay Knox : 
 Examine no more banks ; committee may return. By direotions-of the Secretary, 
 
 H. E. HULBUED, Comptrolla; 
 
 That telegTam was dated on the 26th of September, which was Sun- 
 day morning. I do not recollect when we received it, but I reckon that 
 it was on Sunday. 
 
 Q. Did you make any further examination ? — A. No ; we did not go 
 in auy other bank. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Calender, the general examiner of New York, call upon 
 you to confer with you in regard to the examination of the Tenth Na- 
 tional Bank ? — A. The orders that I received from Mr. Hulburd, the 
 Comptroller of the Currency, were to go there, and to say nothing to any- 
 body about the examination of. the bank untU we had determined 
 whether the bank was engaged in laying by greenbacks ; to say nothing 
 to Mr. Calender, or anybody else. When the examination was nearly 
 over I saw Mr. Calender, and then the orders had ceased to be of any 
 effect, because we had determined the point upon which the Comptroller 
 had instructed us. But the examination seemed to create a want of 
 confidence in the bank on the part of the public, and there was a great 
 run on it. Then Mr. Calender consulted with me and the bank offtcers 
 a.s to what it was best to do, he being the ofQcial examiner for the banks 
 of the city of New York. He did not know how to act ; whether to do 
 niiy thing or to let the bank go. A committee of* the clearing-house 
 association of New York City had been in consultation with the officers 
 of the bank, and, as I understood, the oflcers had told them that some- 
 thing would have to be done to save the bank from failure. Then that 
 committee, as I understood, took a part of the collaterals held by the 
 bank to secure demand loans, in order to raise money to save the bank 
 from failure. The committee came back, and when they said they could 
 not do anything, Mr. Calender took the securities and went and raised 
 money on them so as to save the bank from having to shut its doors. 
 That is his connection with the examination, so far as I know. 
 
 Q. Did he make any objection or complaint as to the examination 
 which you were making? — A. No, sir ; not at all; not the slightest. 
 
 Q. Was anything said by him as to his coming on to Washington t» 
 confer with the Secretary and the Comptroller of the Currency in refer- 
 ence to it ? — A. Yes ; if I remember right, I think he said that he would 
 come on that night and see what the Comptroller and the Secretary 
 thought of it. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether he did come on ? — A. I know it from haying 
 been told that he did. 
 
 Q. What was the last hour that you saw him on Saturday ?— A. I 
 suppose it must have been about five o'clock in the afternoon, and I saw 
 him again on Monday, about ten or eleven o'clock in the morning. 
 
 Q. Did he state to you whether he had been on to Washington ?— A. 
 T think he did. 
 
 Q. Did he state to you the object of his visit ?— A. I think he stated 
 that he just came on to consult with the Comptroller of the Currency 
 and the Secretary as to the situation of affairs. 
 
 Q. Did he advise with you at all, or express any opinion as to the 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 229 
 
 examination of any of the other l^ew York banks ? — ^A. No, sir ; I -was 
 instructed before I left, by Mr, Hulburd ; and knowing this business, I 
 did not have any consultation with anybody about it. It was a sort of 
 secret matter. 
 
 Q. What time on Saturday did you leave the Tenth IJTational Bank ? — 
 A. We went away about five o'clock. 
 
 Q. Was your examination at that time complete, as you under- 
 stood? — ^A. Yes, sir; the examination was altogether complete before 
 that time. On Saturday there was a very severe run upon the bank, 
 and the examination throughout that day was rather desultory than 
 otherwise. We had to take things as we could catch them. This state- 
 ment (a copy of which is attached to Mr. Bigelow's testimony) is fuller 
 than the general statement also already in evidence, because in that 
 general statement there are several items added together. For instance, 
 in this statement appear the names of the several banks that have bal- 
 ances due them from the Tenth National Bank, and those that owe to 
 the Tenth National Bank ; but in the other statement the amounts are 
 aU added together in one sum. 
 
 Q. This item of cash, about nineteen and one-half millions, what did 
 it consist of? — ^A. It consisted of bills and checks, and a Little gold and 
 three per cent, certificates. 
 
 Q. What kind of checks ? — ^A. Certified checks on other banks. 
 
 Q. Did you take any list of the individual deposits, showing who the 
 depositors were ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any list of certified checks issued to brokers, consti- 
 tuting this item of seventeen and one-half millions ? — A. I have a list 
 of brokers' balances, but I have no list of the checks issued. It was 
 impossible to get them. I would have liked to have had them, but they 
 could not be got. They had a brokers' ledger in that bank, keeping the 
 brokers' account separate from other accounts. That was done just as 
 a matter of convenience. 
 
 Q. The item of broker's deposits amounting to $2,221,000 is the item 
 of actual deposits to the credit of brokers ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there anything by the way of deposit or security to repre- 
 sent this item of seventeen and one-half millions of certified checks is-, 
 sued to brokers'? — A. No, sir; these were the checks certified upon 
 their balances the day before, and went to decrease their balances. If 
 we had taken the account the day before, before these checks were cer- 
 tified, instead of the brokers having seven*^^een and one-half millions of 
 certified checks, the bank would have had nineteen and one-half mil- 
 lions to the credit of brokers. That is, the brokers had practically 
 drawn out all their balances excepting two millions. I suppose you 
 understand the New York system of clearing. These checks were to 
 be sent to the New York clearing-house at ten o'clock the next morning, 
 and exchanged for outstanding checks on national banks, and any bal- 
 ance either way was to be paid in money. 
 
 Q. Would it not seem from your statement that upon the general 
 clearing on that day there would be a milhon of dollars due to that 
 bank from the clearing-house ? — A. It might appear so from the state- 
 ment, but then there may have been other checks outstanding from 
 previous days which would come in upon that day and thus lessen that 
 balance. I do not know that I can make you fully understand it. The 
 real state of the balance that day, when it came back from the clearing- 
 house, was that the bank owed the clearing-house $162,000. 
 
 Q. Did it grow out of the transactions of that day ? — ^A. No, sir ; 
 because the clearing was for checks drawn before. 
 
230 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION, 
 
 Q. It would seem as if there was a millioa of dollars due to tlie bank 
 by the clearing-house 1 — A. Yes, if there was nothing but these cer- 
 tified checks to come against the bank ; but other banks may have held 
 checks on the Tenth National Bank that were not certified. The checks 
 which came into the clearing-house to be paid by the Tenth National 
 Bank, instead of being only $17,000,000, amounted to $18,727,000, so 
 that a part of them must have been checks that were not certified. 
 
 Q. What, according to the requirements of the banking law, was the 
 amount of greenbacks that the bank was required to hold "? — A. It was 
 required to hold in greenbacks and three per cents, and gold and silver, 
 twenty-five per cent, of its net liabilities. 
 
 Q. Have you upon your exhibit the amoimt of greenbacks held by 
 the bank f — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you find the amount to be within the requirements of the 
 law ? — A. I think the bank had more than its lawful reserve. It needed 
 $715,574 80, and it had $893,690. It had $226,000 in gold treasury 
 notes, $256,900 in legal tenders, and $410,000 in three per cents, but the 
 operations of that day took every cent of cash that it had. The bank 
 had to borrow money upon its collaterals to save it from suspending. 
 
 Q. Was there anything in the management or condition of the bank 
 that day which led you to suppose that it was concerned in the gold 
 movement ? — A. I do not know about that. I cannot say that there 
 was. It was known as a matter of common report that the bank was 
 certifying for those brokers whose names were bandied around in con- 
 nection with the gold speculations. Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. kept 
 a large account there. 
 
 By Mr. Jxjdd : 
 Q. Would your examination show how much was certified for each of 
 those brokers ? — A. No, sir. * 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 Q. Do you know whether any report was required at that time of Mr, 
 Callender, or whether he made any report of the condition of that bank 
 subsequently to your report? — A. I do not know what the Comptroller of 
 the Currency or the Secretary may have, but I know that no report of 
 any examination has come into the division of reports subsequently to 
 my examination. 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 27, 1870. 
 
 WiLLiAJVE O. Chapin sworn and examined. 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Question. State your residence and occupation. — ^Answer. My residence 
 is New York. I am in the employ of the Erie Eailroad Company. 
 
 Q. In what capacity? — A. I don't know exactly in what capacity you 
 would call it. I do all sorts of things. I have some contracts to settle, 
 and to sell the accumulated material of the company, and different kinds 
 of duty to perform. 
 
 Q. Are you a clerk, attorney, or detective? — ^A. I am a clerk. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in the employ of the company ? — A. Since 
 a year ago last November. 
 
 Q. Were you in their employ in the month of September last ? — A'. I 
 was. 
 
 Q. Did you carry any message for Mr. Fisk, or under his direction, 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 231 
 
 into Pennsylvania, from the city of New York, at any time in the month 
 of September? — ^A. I carried letters nnder hisandMr. Gould's direction, 
 
 Q. Letters, or a letter ? — ^A. Two letters. 
 
 Q. When was that 1 — A. I am under the inipression it was the 17th 
 of September. I made no minute of it, and could not state positively. 
 
 Q. State all the instructions you received, the interview that led to 
 the instructions, and all that was done under them. — ^A. I was at home 
 in the evening reading ; a gentleman came there, rapped, and said they 
 wanted me at the offlce. I put on my boots and went down there. 'Mr. 
 Gould and Mr. Fisk were there in the ofi&ce. I cannot repeat the con- 
 versation just as it occurred. The idea was, that I was to go to Wash- 
 ington, Pennsylvania, which, as they thought, was about eighteen miles 
 from the railroad at Pittsburg. I was to go to Mr. Corbin's house the 
 next morning, get letters from him and take them, that is, if I could not 
 go that night, as I found I could not. We looked over the railroad 
 schedules and found that I could go, I think, at nine o'clock, or half- 
 past eight, the next morning. The next morning I got into the carriage 
 which I had ordered sent to me from the Fifth Avenue hotel, and went 
 around to Mr. Corbin'sTiouse. 
 
 Q. Who awakened you in the morning ■? — A. A servant girl, 
 
 Q. Did anybody go from the railroad of&ce to be sure you were 
 awakened? — ^A. The servant girl awakened me and awakened Mr. 
 Hooker, They wanted Mr. Hooker to be sure that I got off in the train. 
 
 Q. Who is Mr. Hooker ? — A. A gentleman in New York, Mr. Fisk's 
 brother-in-law. I went around to Mr. Corbin's house, rang the bell at, 
 I think, about half-past seven. The servant came to the door and I told 
 him to tell Mr. Corbin that I came from Mr. Gould and Mr. Fisk to take 
 what he had to the President. The servant called me inside, and I 
 stepped into the vestibule. Mr. Qorbin appeared at the top of the stairs 
 in his night-gown, and gave the servant two letters to hand to me. 
 He said I was to give these in person to the General, There was one 
 for General Grant, and one for General Porter. He said he desired me 
 to give them in person, and if the General was busy or engaged, to use 
 his name ; that would be sure to give me access to him. I took the 
 letters, and arrived at Pittsburg at one o'clock that night. When I 
 got there, they told me it was about thirty miles over the mountains, 
 and they, did not think I could get any one to take me. I said I must 
 go. I went around to the stable at first, and after sending for the pro- 
 prietor of the stable, he finally sent down word that two horses were to 
 be hitched up for me. We started, lost our way once on the trip, but 
 finally got there ; I think it was about nine o'clock in the morning. I 
 proceeded immediately to the house where I heard that the President 
 was staying, but learned from the lady there that he was up at Mr. 
 Smith's house, some way out of town. I got another pair of horses, and 
 the driver took me to Mr. Smith's house. A lady came to the door. I 
 told her I had a letter from Mr. Corbin which I was to deliver to the 
 President in person. She showed me into the parlor. General Grant 
 was playing croquet on the lawn, he and General Porter. I do not know 
 whether anybody else was engaged in the game or not. General Porter 
 came up soon and spoke to me, and I gave him his letter. I told him I 
 had also one for the President. When the game had been finished. 
 General Grant stepped up to the porch and spoke to me ; I told him I 
 had a letter from Mr. Corbin, and delivered it to him. By this time, 
 General Porter had opened his letter and was reading it. General Grant 
 broke his letter open, started down to the window of the parlor facing 
 me, and read it. He seemed to be reading some of it twice ; then I 
 
232 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 think some one said Mrs. Grant wisTied to see Mm. Before that, Gen- 
 eral Porter had read his letter two or three times over, as I thought. 
 General Grant got up, went out, and was gone some fifteen minutes or 
 so. In the mean time. General Porter got up, went up stairs and came 
 down again ; I think, went through the parlor, went up stairs again, 
 and returned and inquired of me how Mr. Corbin was ; I made some 
 i^eply. A little while after^ General Grant appeared again and walked 
 by me almost up to the wmdow, stopped, and walked back again. He 
 stiir had the letter in his hand. I was waiting, expecting all the time 
 he would give me some instructions, or send a message by me in return. 
 He seemed to wait so long, that, as I wanted to get back, I said to him, 
 " is it all satisfactory f or something like that. He says, " yes." I asked 
 him if there was any reply. He said, "no, nothing," and he wished me 
 a good morning. I drove straight back to Pittsburg, and telegraphed 
 to New York that the letters were delivered all right, and took the night 
 train back to New York. 
 
 Q. Have you a copy of that telegram 1 — A. No ; it was written in 
 pencil and left at the telegraph ofQce. 
 
 Q. What were the words of the telegram 1-^A. That the letter or 
 letters were delivered all right. It was in one sentence, and signed by 
 myself. 
 
 Q. What was the exact language you addressed to General Grant?— 
 A. I cannot, under oath, repeat the exact language ; I said, "Is it all 
 satisfactory?" or " all righf?" implying that I wanted to know whether I 
 had done my part all right. 
 
 Q. The substance of that inquiry of General Grant was, whether he 
 had anything further for you ? — A. I thought he would naturally give 
 me some message. I supposed the matter must be something very im- 
 portant to require such a trip as that, and I supposed he would give me 
 some message to assure me that it was aU right. I wanted to know 
 whether he wished to send any reply back. To the first part of my 
 inquiry he said, "yes;" to the next, "no;" and then I think he repeated, 
 " No, no reply." 
 
 Q. Was that all General Grant said to you on that occasion ?— A. Yes ; I 
 think that was all ; I do not remember his saying anything more. 
 
 Q. Did you put into, your telegram that he said " no reply?" — ^A. No. 
 
 Q. Did General Porter send any reply by you? — A. No; I think Gen- 
 eral Porter joined in some little conversation, some common-place 
 remarks, perhaps, something about New York. 
 
 Q. Were any words said either by the President or General Porter, 
 giving the least information as to what these letters contained ? — A. No, 
 sir ; there was not. 
 
 Q. Were you informed, before you left New York, what the substance 
 of the letters was 1 — A. No, sir ; I was not. I had no knowledge of it 
 in any way. 
 
 Q. Did you mean, by your telegram, to say that the President answered 
 that the contents of the letter were all right ? — ^A. No ; I did not know 
 anything about the contents of the letter. I meant to say that he had 
 received the letters and read them ; that they had been delivered aU 
 right. 
 
 Q. You did not, in your telegram, allude to the contents of the letters, 
 or the subject-matter of them ? — A. No, nothing of the kind. 
 
 Q. Did you carry any other message except those letters from any 
 person ? — A. No^ sir. 
 
 ' By Mr. PACKER : 
 Q. Was anything said by Mr. Fisk, or Mr. Gould, about the object of 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 233 
 
 your mission ? — A. No, sir. The night before I started, when I went 
 down to the ofiSce, I knew there was a movement in gold, but I knew 
 nothing further than that. 
 
 Q. Did they say that this trip of yours was in connection with any 
 movement in gold ? — A. ITot a word. 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 27, 1870. 
 
 Thomas Sampson sworn and examined. 
 By the Chaikman : 
 
 Question. State yoar residence and occupation. — Answer. I am a 
 United States detective by occupation, attached to the sub-treasury of 
 the United States in New York ; I reside on Staten Island. 
 
 Q. How long have you been a detective for the Treasury ? — A. I have 
 been in the sub-treasiu-y since 1863. 
 
 Q. What are your duties in that position ? — A. To investigate any 
 frauds attempted against the government; when over -payments are 
 made, to get it back ; to arrest persons stealing the government funds, 
 and the general duties of a detective ofScer. 
 
 Q. Were you on duty at the sub-treasury buildiag during the month 
 of September last ? — A. I was. 
 
 Q. Were you there every day of what is known as "panic week," 
 ending the 25th of September ? — A. Yes, sir ; every day that week and 
 for two or three weeks before. 
 
 Q. What were your special duties during the panic week ? — A. I can- 
 not remember any particular duty just now. Large payments were 
 being made of interest, &c., and I had to keep the lines of persons call- 
 ing to receive payments in order. 
 
 Q. Did you have anything to do with the messengers or servants 
 about the building ? — A. Yes, sir ; all the messengers are my immedi- 
 ate subordinates. 
 
 Q. About how many subordinates have you ? — ^A. I think I have six 
 immediately under me, and others who are incidentally so. 
 
 Q. If messages are sent out from the sub-treasury to any part of the 
 city by any of the messengers would you know it ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. In what way ? — A. The messenger is required to notify me when 
 he is going out, so that I may know how long he is to be absent and 
 where he is. There may be times when he would go out without speak- 
 ing to me about it ; but that is the general rule. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any messages being sent by General Butterfield 
 during what is known as " black Friday " % — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What messages were sent, so far as' you know? — ^A. There was one 
 messenger there who was not under my control. It was said that he 
 was an orderly of General Butterfield. I do not know his name or 
 what his business was ; and he carried a good many messages which I 
 did not see. There was a messenger by the name of Eobert P. Brown, 
 who carried a good many messages, sometimes to Belden, a number of 
 times to Smith, sometimes to William M. Tweed, and, I think, to Mr. 
 Seligman and to Mr. Fisk. 
 
 Q. How do you know that the messages were sent to those persons ? — 
 A. These messages became so frequent previous to panic week, that I 
 took especial pains to detail this man Brown for that special purpose. 
 I had never done that before, nor have I since ; but he had to go so 
 much that I made up my mind to dispense with his other services and 
 
234 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 detail him for that business. When he would go out he would say to 
 me, "I am going to such a place," showing me the name. 
 
 Q. Did you take note of the persons to whom he sent messages ?— A. 
 No, sir ; nothing but memory, and at that time I did not attach any 
 importance to the matter, except that the messenger was kept very in- 
 dustriously at it. 
 
 Q. Did he carry an unusual number of messages to these parties ?— 
 A. Decidedly. 
 
 Q. Was it customary, previous to that time, to carry messages to 
 those parties during business hours ? — A. No, sir; it was very unusual. 
 
 Q. How many messages, as near as you can remember, were sent on 
 those days ? — A. I really could not say ; I do not suppose less than a 
 dozen, and there may have been forty. Sometimes he would wait, how- 
 ever, and would not go out at all for an hour. 
 
 Q. How many times do you remember of his having taken messages 
 to James Pisk, jr. ? — A. I do not remember more than two or three 
 times. After I notified him to stand at the door and carry messages for 
 General Butterfield, I did not see any more of these messages, and he 
 did not report to me the parties to whom he carried them. 
 
 By Mr. Smith: 
 
 Q. At what time did you detail him? — A. As I remember, about the 
 10th of September. 
 
 Q. And after that you did not know to whom the messages were 
 directed ? — ^A. Except in this way : I would be sometimes called out on 
 business, and in going out I would say to Brown that I wanted him to 
 be here, and he very likely would say that he had to go out himself, 
 showing me the letters. 
 
 Q. When did you see these messages particularly ? — A. I should say 
 from the 12th to the 23d or 24th, to within one or two days of the 
 panic. 
 
 Q. On the day of the panic did you see any messages ? — ^A. No, sir ; 
 I did not see any message to Mr. Fisk. He took messages out that 
 morning, but whom they were addressed to I do not know. 
 
 Q. Then none of these messages you have spoken of were on that 
 day 1 — A. No, sir ; not on that day. 
 
 By the Chaikman : 
 
 Q. Did you ever see General Butterfield in conversation with Mr. 
 Corbin, and if so, when ? — A. I did, on no less than three occasions 
 previous to the panic. I never saw him in the of&ce after the panic. 
 
 Q. State as nearly as you can the days when you saw him there. — 
 A. I should have to guess at that ; I should say probably within two 
 weeks of the panic, or three at furthest. 
 
 Q. Where did these interviews take place! — A. In General Butter- 
 field's room. 
 
 Q. You could not give the dates of these interviews more exactly 1 — 
 A. No ; within ten days or two weeks. 
 
 Q. How did you know he was Mr. Corbin ? — A. He was pointed out 
 in the of&ce as Mr. Corbin, the brother-in-law of the President. On the 
 first occasion when the President visited the sub-treasury there was a 
 great crowd. After that I think he came alone. 
 
 Q. Did you know any of the messengers whom James Pisk, jr., em- 
 ployed on that Friday 1 — A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Or any messengers outside of General Butterfleld's, coming that 
 day ? — ^A. A great many came in very hurriedly and excitedly. I could 
 not say who they were. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 235 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about the time the telegraphic dispatch 
 ■was received by General Butterfleld from tUe Secretary of the Treasury 
 to seU gold ? — A. Of my own knowledge I know very little. It was re- 
 ceived, I remember, by a messenger who took it in to General Butter- 
 field. It was in the course of the morning ; I should think, about 10 
 o'clock. 
 
 By Mr. Packee, : 
 
 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Fisk or Mr. Gould come there ? — A. I do not 
 know that I did. The broker who came there most frequently was Mr. 
 Seligman. He would come thei'e a great deal and stop a long time. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. How did you know this telegraphic dispatch was from the Secre- 
 tary of the Treasury? — A. That was what the messenger at the door 
 said. I do not know of my own knowledge. I think I gathered it from 
 him, for it was one which was expected at that time. 
 
 Q. Did you see the messenger who brought it ? — A. I think I did. I 
 think it was a boy thirteen or fourteen years of age. 
 
 Q. From what oflice did the sub-treasury get its messages from "Wash- 
 ington ? — A. I think they came from the offtce at the corner of Liberty 
 street and Broadway. 
 
 By Mr. Packbe : 
 
 Q. How long was it from the time the message got there until it was 
 publicly annoxmced, or until you knew what its nature was 1 — A. I really 
 cannot answer that. I have been asked that question a great many times 
 in New York. I could not tell how long it was. I should think from 
 the time the messenger went in with it, it was at least two hours before 
 I knew what it was. 
 
 Q. After it was received were there messages sent to any of these 
 brokers you have been speaking off — ^A. Mr. Brown will be able to testify 
 to that. After the panic Mr. Brown's labors in taking out these mes- 
 sages were very limited, and I returned him to his ordinary duties. 
 
 Washington, January 37, 1870. 
 Benjajvein F. Caetee sworn and examined. 
 
 To the GhaiemaN : 
 
 My place of residence is at 7 West Twenty-fifth street, New York City; 
 my place of business 7 Broad street. I am a broker. The style of the 
 firm is Carver & Co. We deal in stocks and gold and government 
 bonds. 
 
 Question. You do business, I believe, for Smith, Gould, Martin & Co.? — 
 Answer. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Both in gold and stocks? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Also for James Fisk, jr. ? — ^A. No ; I did no business for James 
 Fisk, jr., for a number of months. 
 
 Q. Did you do business for him during the month of September last? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. State in general for whom you did business in the month of Sep- 
 tember last. — A. We did business for quite a number of parties. 
 
 Q. For Smith, Gould & Martin?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. For Heath & Co.?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. For Belden & Co.?— A. No, sir. 
 
236 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Do you buy and sell and loan, yourselves, or do you employ others 
 to do it for you ? — A. I employ others mostly. 
 
 Q. State the extent of the transactions for Smith, Gould, Martin & 
 Co. during the month of September last, prior to the breakdown.— A. 
 1 believe my transactions for them were not very large. I may have 
 had one time prior to the breakdown probably four and a half millions of 
 gold. 
 
 Q. Upon the order of which one of the firm did you buy this gold?— 
 A. I believe I usually got my orders from Mr. Smith. 
 
 Q. What were the terms of the order as to amount and price ? 
 State your general instructions. — A. They varied with the market. 
 
 Q. Were you limited as to the amounts you were to purchase? — A. 0, 
 yes. 
 
 Q. At what rates did you purchase? — A. I do not recollect. 1 think 
 that most of my purchases were at about 37. 
 
 Q. Did you also loan this gold that you bought? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. From day to day to different parties ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you buy or sell or loan gold for the firm of Smith, Gould, Mar- 
 tin & Co. on the 22d, 23d, or 24th of September? If so, state the amount.— 
 A. I have no recollection as to the amount. I undoubtedly loaned gold 
 for them during those days. 
 
 Q. About how much should you say ? — ^A. I should judge probably 
 three millions in all. 
 
 Q. Did you buy or sell for them on either of those days ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 I think there was a little something done all the time each day. 
 
 Q. Who were your brokers who bought, sold, or loaned gold for you 
 during those days ? — A. I had different brokers. A good deal of this 
 business is done by my clerk. I recollect that E. W. Martin, jr., H. 
 Knickerbocker & Co., Wood & Eeick, and James Julian were brokers 
 for me. 
 
 Q. You made settlements with parties with whom you transacted 
 business? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you make your settlements through the clearing-house, or pri- 
 vately ? — A. Some of them were made through the clearing-house and 
 some privately. The clearing-house stopped, and shut up shop. 
 
 Q. Please state what persons Mr. Smith suggested to you to compro- 
 mise with in regard to transactions of that day. — A. I sold a good deal 
 of gold at 35, and all of it wentfout with the exception of a trifling amount; 
 I do not think the difference was $5,000. 
 
 Q. Was there anybody in the gold-room to whom you did not sell, or 
 authorized gold to be sold to ? — A. There was a man named Speyers in 
 the room. The rumor got around the street that he was insane; he 
 was bidding 10 or 15 per cent, more foff gold than the market price really 
 was, and I may have told my brokers not to sell to him. 
 
 Q. Did you tell any of them to sell in small lots, and not to sell to 
 Belden or any of those who were buying in large lots at 160 ? — A. I 
 rather think that probably I did. 
 
 Q. State what was your object in giving that order ? — A. Belden is a 
 man in whom I never had any confidence in any way. He did not belong 
 to the gold-room, to begin with ; he was not one of the parties to the 
 organization, and for months before that I would not have taken him 
 for a gold transaction. 
 
 Q. Did you give any orders on the 24th to John Bonner to sell gold, 
 and did you instruct him not to sell to Belden or Speyers ? — A. I may 
 have done so ; Mr. Bonner sold some gold for me. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 237 
 
 Q. What is your understanding of the cause of the extraordinary rise 
 in gold during ".those days 1 — ^A. It was caused by very large purchases. 
 
 Q. Made for the purpose of raising the price ? — A. I should think so. 
 
 Q. Who was in the combination to raise gold, as you understood ? — 
 A. I do not know ; nothing more than what rumor says. I do not think 
 there was really any pool in it. 
 
 Q. Wore you the plaintiff in any suit against the New York Gold 
 Exchange Bank in September last ? — ^A. I believe I was. 
 
 Q. State the nature and object of that suit?— A. I cannot do it. It 
 was a time of great excitement. I had $15,000 in money in the bank, 
 and I think I applied for a receiver, if I recollect right. 
 
 Q. Was the injunction granted? — A. No, sir; it was aU fixed up 
 before anything came out of it. 
 
 Q. By whose direction or advice or order did you commence ■ the 
 suit 1 — A. I do not think by any one's advice ; I think I consulted with 
 Mr. Smith about it. 
 
 Q. Who was your counsel ? — A. Field & Sherman. 
 
 Q. Did you settle with the counsel and pay his fees ? — ^A. There was 
 nothing done. ** 
 
 Q. You began the suit ? — ^A. I began the suit, and Mr. Fielrl told me 
 that he should want a retainer, I think of $1,500 ; and he sent down to 
 my offtce a number of times to have me come up there. I had inquired 
 into the situation of the Gold Exchange Bank, and had made up my 
 mind that it was perfectly good, and so I never went near the ofilce. I 
 wrote him a note saying that I did not wish to carry on the suit, as I 
 was satisfied I should get my money in a few days, when I did receive 
 my money in full from John Ponder. 
 
 Q. How came he to pay you the money ? — A. He owed the bank some 
 money. 
 
 Q. And the bank ordered him to pay you and thus cancel the trans- 
 action ? — A. Yes, sir ; what they call a " stand-off" among brokers. 
 
 Q. Was the suit then discontinued ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. By your order ?-^A. Yes, sir ; by my order to counsel. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Field ever demand any fee for his services ? — A. Not after 
 that. 
 
 Q. And you never paid any ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Who did pay ? — ^A. I do not know. He did not get anything out 
 of me. 
 
 Q. Do you consider that you owe him anything? — ^A. I suppose I may 
 have owed him $25 or $30. 
 
 Q. Did you not consider this suit really more for Smith, Gould, Mar- 
 tin & Co. than for yourself, and that they ought to pay the fee ? — A. 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you consulted by anybody with regard to discontinuance of 
 the suit, and the manner in which it was to be settled ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you not a party to the suit when the first receiver was ap- 
 pointed ? — A. Not that I recollect. 
 
 Q. Did you bring any other suit than the one you have spoken of? 
 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you by name a party to any other suit ? — ^A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Were you present at the Opera House, about the time of the panic, 
 at any meeting of the parties interested in the movement ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of any ofScer of the United States having 
 been interested, directly or indirectly, or having taken any part in the 
 gold movement ? — A. No, sir. 
 
238 
 
 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Washington, January 27, 1870. 
 Joseph Sbligman sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 Q. Please state your residence, place of business, and occupation. — ^A. 
 I reside in New York. My place of business is 59 Exchange Place. I 
 am a banker. 
 
 Q. In what business were you engaged during the months of August 
 and September last ? — ^A. As usual, in foreign exchange and United 
 States government bonds. 
 
 Q. Were you acquainted with the course of gold during these months 
 in New York 1 — Yes, sir. 
 Q. Did you have transactions in gold? — A. We had, almost daily. 
 Q. State the extent of your transactions during the month of August 
 and the iirst half of September ? — A. I should think our transactions 
 are generally on an average of about a million and a half to three mil- 
 lions a month. 
 
 Q. State what the extent of these transactions was during the week 
 known as the panic week, ending 25tjj of September ? — A. During that 
 week I should think I sold, it may be, a million or a million and a quar- 
 ter of gold. I purchased very little, and the gold we purchased was 
 after the break. I do not think we purchased more than a hundred 
 thousand dollars. 
 
 Q. For whom did you transact business during that week ? — A. We 
 sold chiefly for ourselves. I also sold some gold during the week for 
 another gentleman. I presume I might as well state what I suppose 
 you refer to at once. I sold gold that week for General Butterfleld. 
 
 Q. How much did you sell for him that week !— A. I should think 
 near seven hundred thousand dollars. 
 
 Q. State the dates. — A. On the 22d or 23d of September I sold about 
 four hundred thousand in gold, on an average, from 41 to 43. I could 
 not, from memory, state the amount sold each day, but on that week, up 
 to black Friday, the total amount was seven hundred thousand, aver- 
 aging from 34 to 43 — the majority 41. 
 
 Q. State what orders General Butterfleld gave you, and what instruc- 
 tions in regard to these sales. — ^A. He told me about how much to sell. 
 One order was for half a million, and on it we sold three hundred thou- 
 sand. 
 Q. Were these orders given in writing ? — A. No ; verbally. 
 Q. Did he come to you in person ? — A. He sent for me. 
 Q. Did you go to the sub-treasury ? — A. I did. 
 
 Q. State as nearly as you can what the conversation was. — A. I had 
 been operating for some weeks for General Butterfleld in the purchase 
 of United States bonds, which is our chief business. I told him, of 
 course, that I thought gold at 40 was a good sale in connection with the 
 purchase of bonds on the other side. He told me he wished I would 
 sell for him about half a million of gold, which I did, and we sold two 
 hundred thousand afterward. He told me afterward that these oper- 
 ations were for Mrs. Butterfleld, his wife. I had a general order from 
 him to sell. I had no special orders for particular sales. 
 
 Q. Did he put up a margin with you? — A. He did not, but he had a 
 profit on bonds we had purchased previously, so that that acted as a 
 margin. 
 
 Q. So that your business with him was a regular one, in which you 
 had regularly secured yourself? — A. O yes, I paid him his profits. He 
 made on the sale of gold, I should think, about thirty-five thousand dol- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 239 
 
 lars, whicli we settled with him for part in currency and partly in United 
 States bonds, which we carried. 
 
 Q. What amonnt in gold and bonds have you transacted for him ? — 
 A. About a million dollars. 
 
 Q. During any of these days of the panic week did you receive any 
 messages from General Butterfleld, aside &om the one you have men 
 tioned ?— A. I think I did. 
 
 Q. What messages, if any ? — A. Only to come up and see him to op 
 erate either in bonds or gold for him. 
 
 Q. How often did you go during that week ? — A. I think not exceed- 
 ing three or four times. 
 
 Q. What messenger did he send to you asking you to come ? — ^A I do 
 not know ; some subordinate of the treasury. I do not know his name 
 if I should see him. 
 
 Q. Did General Butterfleld say anything to you about the probability of 
 gold being sold from the Treasury, in any of these conversations ? — ^A. 
 Yes ; I think he thought that Mr. Boutwell's plan would probably be con- 
 tinued for the following month. 
 
 Q. When did you first learn of the order to sell' on that day ? — 
 A. After the market had broken. 
 
 Q. Not before ?— A. No. 
 
 Q. How did you first hear of it 1 — A. I really cannot speak posi- 
 tively. I am satisfied I did not learn of the order through General 
 Butterfleld. I had no interest in that, even for General Butterfleld, in- 
 asmuch as we were not long of gold, but rather short. I think 1 heard 
 at first in my own offl.ce. 
 
 Q. Did you call on General Butterfleld during that day, and before 
 the break? — A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Did you call on him on the 23d? — ^A. I am not positive ; I think 
 it likely I did. 
 
 Q. Do you remember any specific thing which he said to you of what 
 the Treasury would be likely to do? — A. No ; I did not know certainly, 
 but thought the Secretary would probably continue to seU gold and pur- 
 chase bonds for the ensuing month. 
 
 Q. Did he show you any correspondence or dispatches? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Had he been in the habit of showing you dispatches? — ^A. He 
 showed me a week or two before a letter he had written to the Secretary. 
 
 Q. What was the substance of the letter? — A. I think it was a gen- 
 eral letter, advising Mr. Boutwell to go on with the plan of selling gold 
 and purchasing bonds. I would not be positive, but I think that was 
 about it. 
 
 Q. Was it the understanding, iu the transactions with him, that he 
 was to keep you informed of any changes of policy in the government 
 in regard to selling gold? — A. There was no particular understanding 
 about that. I suppose he thought it would be to his own interest to 
 do so. 
 
 Q. Have you had any transactions for General Butterfleld other than 
 those you have mentioned ? — A. Except in a few stocks which I once 
 carried for him, I think not. 
 
 Q. When did you first begin to buy, sell, or loan stocks, bonds, or 
 gold for General Butterfield ? — ^A. Some time in July General Butter- 
 fleld sent for us to say that he had received an order from the Treasury — 
 General Spinner — ^to sell, on account of some western banker, some 
 10.40 United States bonds, which he wanted us to dispose of and render 
 an account. That was our first transaction with General Butterfield. 
 Then I became acquainted with him. 
 
240 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Did you have any transactions with General Butterfleld after the 
 break 1—A. Yes ; after the break we bought in gold. We were short of 
 gold previous to the break. 
 
 Q. When did you settle these transactions with him ?— A. ihey are 
 not settled. There are some bonds I am carrying for him. I have paid 
 in the money for sales we have made. 
 
 By Mr. Coburn : 
 
 Q. State whether you sold any gold for General Butterfleld on Friday 
 the 24th of September; and if so, how much and at what price?— A. I 
 think I sold two hundred thousand at about 34 on that Friday. This 
 was a part of the seven hundred thousand which I have mentioned. 
 
 Q. At what time on Friday did you sell that gold ? — ^A. After the 
 market had broken ; an hour perhaps. 
 
 Q. Before that who was the first man you discovered selling gold after 
 the market broke 1 — A. I do not know. I did not go into the gold-room 
 personally. When I saw gold was quiet at 45 I told my broker to sell 
 two hundred thousand to a good man. He went over and said the room 
 was in great confusion ; that he could not find a good man. He finally 
 sold at 34 to a good man. 
 
 Q. Who was your broker 1 — A. William H. Eeed. 
 
 Q. You had heard that gold was broken before you directed Eeed to 
 sell it? — ^A. Yes ; it ran down from 60 to 35 in ten, fifteen, or twenty 
 minutes. I have a telegraph indicator in my own office. 
 
 Q. How close is your oflice to the gold-room ? — ^A. Very close ; diag- 
 onally opposite. 
 
 Q. Who first told you of the order of the Treasury to sell gold ?- 
 A. I cannot state positively who told me. I expected it would come, 
 I had no doubt but that Mr. Boutwell would break gold on that day. 
 When I went down town I had a conversation with Mr. Korville, the 
 financial editor of the Times, and he said so too. In fact, no reasonable 
 man expected anything else but what the government would step in 
 that day or, at all events, the following day. 
 
 By Mr. BuRCHAED : 
 
 Q. Did you sell any gold that day ; and if so, how much ? — A. Yes, 
 I think I sold probably from one to two hundred thousand dollars. 
 
 Q. After the break or before 1 — A. After the break. I did not sell 
 any before on that day. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Please state whether you had any gold transactions for any other 
 person connected with' the sub-treasury. — A. I had not. 
 
 Q. Did you have any other transactions for any member of the family, 
 or any oflcers of the Treasury ? — ^A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Aside from what you have said in your testimony hitherto, do you 
 know of any officer of the government of the United States, either in 
 ]Srew York, Washington, or elsewhere, who had any interest, or took 
 any part in the interest, in gold during the month of September ?— A. I 
 do not. 
 
 Q. What do you think, as a banker and an expert business man, wa« 
 the cause of the break down in gold ? — ^A. Mr. BoutweU's order to sell. 
 
 Q. Did not gold break down before notice of the order came ? A. I 
 
 think it did. I cannot tell. It is just as possible it may have broken 
 down before the order came. It had run up to such a fearfiil price that 
 no reasonable man would deal in gold at 50 or 60, when it was worth 
 
 out/ ^5, 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 241 
 
 Q. What was the cause of the sadden rise in gold ? — ^A. There is no 
 question but what the pool drove it up by their tremendously large pur- 
 chases. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by the pool ? — ^A. I mean a combination of 
 gamblers. 
 
 Q. Do you know that there was such a combination? — ^A. I do not 
 "know it, except as you know by the papers. 
 
 Q. Have you any doubt in your own mind that there was ? — ^A. I have 
 no doubt. 
 
 Q. Prom your knowledge of the transaction, who made money out of 
 this movement? — ^A. Very strange to say that out of a hundred people 
 I have spoken to ninety-nine have lost money. It occurred in this way : 
 I did not go and purchase gold to strengthen the pool, but I had a cer- 
 tain amount of gold short, believing that it was commercially too high. 
 Of course I had necessarily to take in gold from others at certain prices — 
 suppose I took in gold at 140, the price at which gold was on Thursday, 
 or 160, the price to which it rose the next day, these men came and 
 wanted to get their margin. I, being an experienced banker, was rather 
 careful who I gave margins to. When people came in whom I did not 
 know I told them to put up your margin in the Trust Company, and I 
 will put up with you. Others who put up margins on that day could 
 not get it back again on the next day; and even as careful as I was, in 
 one instance I received money from a very respectable firm by the name 
 of Belden, and on the day following they could not respond, and I was 
 out some ten or twelve thousand dollars. I do not think there was much 
 money made by anybody. The men who were alleged to have formed 
 the pool overdid the business. I do not believe they made much money. 
 There are sometimes financial transactions in which nobody makes any- 
 thing. 
 
 By Mr. Cobuen: 
 
 Q. How much gold do you think was in the market, all told ? — A. I 
 do not believe there were twenty millions in the market. 
 
 Q. Does that estimate cover the whole country as well as New York 
 City ? — ^A. I mean in Wall street, exclusive of the Treasury. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of the amount held in the country out- 
 side of New York ? — ^A. I have no knowledge. I should think that out- 
 side of New York, iacluding California and Nevada, there ought to be 
 near two hundred millions. 
 
 Q. Where is this gold outside of California and Nevada? — A. Texas 
 had a great deal of gold. They sell' their cotton for gold. I should 
 think there were eight or ten millions in that State. Louisiana has a 
 great deal of gold, and a great many people aU over the country have 
 small sums. We can only tell from the production of gold in California 
 dtiring the last fifteen years, and the export of gold, from which I should 
 say there must be about three hundred millions of coin in the United 
 States, exclusive of the amount of gold in the Treasury. 
 
 Q. How is it possible with so large a supply in the country to get 
 such a corner on twenty millions? — ^A. You could not get it in time. 
 What gold there was in Philadelphia and Boston was sent in. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about an effort to get gold from California 
 at that time? — ^A. I telegraphed to San Francisco for gold. 
 
 Q. Did they send it on ? — ^A. Yes. My opinion is that, at any time, in 
 
 spite of the government, a corner can be gotten up in the gold-room in 
 
 New York by a number of jvealthy gamblers — owing to the fact that 
 
 this gold-room is composed of hundreds and hundreds of men, a great 
 
 H. Bep. 31 16 
 
242 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATICXN. 
 
 majority of whom have no capital, who would not be trusted for five 
 thousand dollars, and yet who deal by millions. If you can enact a Im 
 requiring them to lay down the gold within a few hours after a sale, you 
 can stop such panics in the future ; otherwise you cannot. Ton must 
 stop in some way these tremendously large operations by people who 
 have no money. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. "What is the effect of short sales of gold upon the price of gold?— 
 A. A number of short sales in gold, if they are not too large, will steady 
 the market and keep it from going up ; but if too large a number of 
 men come in and sell too largely short, and the bulls find that out, then 
 they win put up the price and endeavor to frighten those who are short. 
 
 Q. So that the effort in regard to gold in this panic was to endeavor 
 the shorts to cover? — A. I think not; because the gamblers as a gen- 
 eral rule run short. The merchants and solid people who thought gold 
 too high at 140 were short ; but I do not think there was any large short 
 interest in the gold-room. 
 
 By Mr. Burchaed : 
 
 Q. You say you sold four hundred thousand for General Butterfield 
 0nthe22d; did you sell that regular? — ^A. Yes; and dehveredit the 
 next day. 
 
 Q. Were there any profits? — A. There were profits, but we did not 
 cover the shorts until after the panic. 
 
 Q. Did not somebody have to carry that? — A. I carried it until after 
 the panic. 
 
 Q. So that you, on his account, was short ?— A. I was. 
 
 Q. Does the clearing-house contribute to operations of this kind in 
 panics? — A. I think it does. I think without the clearing-house there 
 could not be these gigantic operations in gold by men of short means, 
 who are enabled to deal by the million without any capital to go upon. 
 
 Washington, D. 0., JoMuary 27, 1870. 
 Abel Eathbone Cobbin sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State your residence, place of business, and occupation. — 
 Answer. I have resided these last seven years in New York ; I have 
 been out of business a great many years, and now simply manage my 
 own real estate. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with the course of gold during the month of Sep- 
 tember last? — A. I do not know how to answer that; I, who never in 
 my life bought or sold gold for speculative purposes. Having been 
 always an active man, and having in my younger years, after 1 gained 
 my knowledge of the law, gone to St. Louis, where I was persuaded by 
 Colonel Benton to become an editor, I tried to be familiar with every- 
 thing. So in New York. Although I never buy bank stocks, or gold, or 
 anything of that sort, my attention is ever directed toward them, and 
 the events which took place there in the course of the summer made me 
 pay considerable attention to gold and the effect that its price was likely 
 to have on the products of this country. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Fiskand Mr. Gould, or either of them, ever meet the Pres- 
 ident of the United States at your house; and if so, when, for the first 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 243 
 
 time? — ^A. To my knowledge, Mr. J. Fisk, jr., never was in my house in 
 Ms life until after the break of gold on the 24th of September — ^never. 
 It is possible that he may have been there on the occasion of the Pres- 
 ident going to the Boston Jubilee, to see him to the boat. Several gen- 
 tlemen were there when I was not there, but I do not think that he was. 
 Hence these various reports as to what Mr. Pisk stated to these report- 
 ers (and which I cannot think he ever said to them, as some reporters 
 are in the habit of drawing a long bow,) must necessarily be false; he 
 never was there on any occasion, with the possible exception I have 
 stated. He never was in my house in his life prior to the 24th of Sep- 
 tember. As to Mr. Gould, I met him, I think, three or four years ago at 
 Saratoga. I made a general acquaintance with him, and he called occa- 
 sionally during the summer. I was gone much of the summer. I spent 
 some time in Kanesville, in the extreme western part of Pennsylvania, 
 and then passed into the mineral region of that State. I went to Long 
 Branch twice during the summer, and spent some time there. I also 
 went to Saratoga. I had been out of politics for a good many years, 
 but still a remembrance remained with me ; and I was now the more 
 interested, as I had a natural desire for the success of the administration 
 of the brother of my wife, especially during its first year. While at 
 home Mr. Gould used to call at my house occasionally ; and as I had heard 
 that he was a Wall street operator, I always improved the opportunity 
 to talk with him. I took advantage of every occasion to impress upon 
 Mm what I thought was a vital point — and that was to let the farmers 
 and mechanics and manufacturers have good prices for their productions. 
 I never was in his broker's office nor in the gold-room in my life. I was 
 impressed with the idea that gold should be high if we would have good 
 prices for the crops; and as he was engaged in the management of a 
 railroad which was very much stigmatized, I told him I thought that 
 the true road to popularity lay through the field of usefulness, and I 
 think so now. If the crops brought but low prices we could not ship them 
 with profit. That was enforced again and again, I insisting that gold 
 ought to be high in order to move the crops. Mr. Gould concurred in 
 all that, and gave a good many reasons himself. He talked to me much 
 on the subject of gold. He had one or more interviews with the Pres- 
 ident. But the President was always hitching a little from him when- 
 ever he began to go at all into the policy of the government. The Pres- 
 ident would talk on general principles^ but the moment the conversation 
 led to the subject of what the administration would do, he uniformly 
 became very reticent. 
 
 Q. State the first time that Mr. Gould ever met the President at your 
 house — A. (Eeferring to a pocket diary,) the first time that the Pres- 
 ident came to my house was on Thursday, the 15th of June. 
 
 By Mr. JxTDD : 
 Q. Did Mr. Gould meet him at that time? — ^A. I am not certain. 
 Several gentlemen came. The President merely left his family in my 
 house, and left directly for the boat. (Beading from an entry in the 
 diary under that date as follows : " General Grant and family arrived at 
 our house this afternoon.") 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. Doyou keep a regular diary?— A. 2:5"o, sir; except this may be called 
 so. It is a little expense account, and sometimes events are noted. The 
 President arrived at my house that afternoon from West Point, and left 
 at 5 o'clock for Boston, to visit the Peace Jubilee. That was Tues- 
 
244 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 day, the 15tli of June. He returned to my house on Thursday night, 
 June 17. 
 
 By Mr. JuDD : 
 Q. What gentlemen went with him from your house to the boat 1 — A. 
 There were quite a number, almost all of whom were strangers to me. 
 I am not much acquainted with politicians. I think there were some 
 persons from Boston — perhaps the governor and his staff. I w&s intro- 
 duced to several persons, but there were so many strange faces that I 
 do not recall them. The President came back on the 17th, and with his 
 family, left on the 21st. One thing which attracted the President to my 
 house was that I lived very quiet, and he was comparatively very Uttle 
 troubled with company there. In that time, Mr. Gould may or may not 
 have had interviews with him. I do not recall definitely whether he 
 had or not. The President was there long enough for him to have talked 
 with him many times if he chose ; but I believe, without recalling any- 
 thing special, that there was not much conversation. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Did you go with the President to the boat? — A. No, sir; I did not. 
 
 Q. State any other visit of the President to your house while Mr. 
 Gould was there. — A. Very shortly after that I left the city and went 
 to Covington, Kentucky, to visit my father-in-law, and remained there 
 from the 24th of June to the 7th of July. My wife's (and General 
 Grant's) father and mother came back with us. On the 3d of August 
 General Grant and family came to my house again, accompanied by 
 Mrs. General Comstock. On the 6th of August they all went up to 
 Governor Fish's country house. There was no interview then with any- 
 body. He spent a short time there, and on the 9th he and Governor 
 Fish came back, dined at my house, and left for Washington City, the fam- 
 ily remaining at my house. On the 12th of August he came back from 
 Washington, accompanied by General Porter, his private secretary. 
 The next day, (the 13th,) himself and family, and my wife and myself, 
 went out to West Pennsylvania, to Kanesville, and made quite a trip 
 through Pennsylvania. Here is a memorandum under date of August 
 19 : " Eeturned this afternoon from Pennsylvania with General Grant 
 and family, who went on to Newport without stopping at all." When 
 he came back from Pennsylvania, he went direct to the Fall River boat. 
 That was on the 19th of August. On the 2d of September he came to 
 my house to breakfast, and without seeing any one except one gentle- 
 man from New Jersey, he started in the 10.30 train for Saratoga Springs 
 to join his family. On Sunday evening, the 6th of September, he left 
 Saratoga Springs for Washington to see General Rawlins. He did not 
 stop at my house at all, but his family came the next day — ^Monday. 
 General Grant next came to my house on the 10th of September follow- 
 ing, after the funeral of General Rawlins. That night he visited the 
 Mechanics' Fair, I believe, and the next day went with his wife and two 
 children to West Point. Mr. Gould could not have seen him that day. 
 He returned that afternoon, and he possibly might have seen him that 
 night. The next day was Sunday. He dined at A. T. Stewart's, and 
 Mr. Gould could not have seen him there. Monday morning, September 
 13, General Grant and family left for Washington, Pennsylvania, It is 
 not likely that in the trip, between the 10th to the 13th, Mi-. Gould saw him. 
 It is possible, but not at all likely. From Washington, Pennsylvania, 
 he went directly home. He has not been north since, and that was his 
 last visit to my house, I think. Instead of his visiting the Mechanics' 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 245 
 
 Fair the first night that he came, it may have been the second night after 
 he came back from West Point, but I think it was the first night. 
 
 Q. The first visit of the President to your house, as I understand, was 
 on the 15th of June, on his way to the Peace Jubilee ? — A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you say that Mr. Gould was not at your house during the 
 President's stay at your house on his way to the Peace Jubilee ?— A. 
 No ; he could not have had an interview, because the President arrived 
 in the afternoon, and was off the same afternoon, accompanied by some 
 gentlemen, I think from Massachusetts. Possibly Mr. Gould may have 
 been present. But as Hhe President arrived in the afternoon and went 
 to the boat with a crowd at five o'clock, it was practically impossible 
 for any gentleman to have had any private interview with him. 
 
 Q. I am not speaking of any private conversation with Mr. Gould at 
 your house ? — A. I cannot say. There was a Crowd there requiring my 
 attention, and I was much occupied. The only probability would be 
 that going on their boat, Mr. Gould may have joined the committee. 
 
 Q. He may or may not have been there to go with the President. 
 Tou do not know ? — A. I do not recollect seeing him at all. 
 
 Q. On the return of the President from the Peace Jubilee, from the 
 17th to the 21st, state whether Mr. Gould was or was not at your house, 
 while the President was there. — ^A. The next day, the 10th, the Presi- 
 dent rode out with Judge Pierrepont. Mr. Gould may or may not have 
 seen him. He might very easily have done so, but whether he did or 
 did not, I do not recollect. 
 
 Q. Then you swear that you do not recollect whether Mr. Gould 
 called during those four days or not 1 — ^A. I cannot recollect. I recall 
 no event which fastens it upon my mind. He could very weU have done 
 so, and may or may not have done so. 
 
 Q. When was the visit of the President to your house on his return 
 from Saratoga? — A. August 3, General Grant and family arrived with 
 Mrs. GenerS Comstock, on Tuesday. He rem'ained Wednesday and 
 Thursday. He visited the sub-treasury — ^probably his first visit. He 
 staid with me all of Wednesday and Thursday, and I think they went 
 away tolerably early on Friday, the 6th, to Governor Fish's country-place. 
 
 Q. Was he on his way to Saratoga at that time 1 — ^A. No, sir. On the 
 9th, after dinner, the President and Governor Fish left for Washington 
 City. He came back from Washington on the 12th5 accompanied by 
 General Porter, private secretary. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 Q. Have you any memorandum as to the President's movements be- 
 tween the 21st of June and the 3d of August ? — A. I have nothing be- 
 tween June 21 and August 3, except that the President and his family 
 came up from Long Branch on the 22d of July, shopping, and returned 
 by the 4 o'clock boat to Long Branch. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. Have you reached the date when the President went to Saratoga 
 from your house? — A. I went myself to Saratoga on the 26th of 
 August, and therefore know that President Grant and family arrived 
 at the springs (after the trip through New England) at 9 o'clock on 
 Saturday night, the 28th of August. On August 30th I returned 
 to New York, accompanying President Grant in a special car. He 
 went immediately on to Washington. I think Governor Fish was 
 with us, though I see no notice of it in my diary. The next Thursday, 
 September 2, President Grant, accompanied by his secretary, and 
 General Porter, arrived at my house and took breakfast. After a 
 
246 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 brief interview with a gentleman from New Jersey, they left by 
 the Hudson Eiver Eailroad on the 10.30 train for Saratoga Springs, 
 where he had left his family. General Grant left Saratoga Springs for 
 Washington on the night of Sunday, September 5, to visit General 
 Eawlins, and did not stop at my house. 
 
 Q. At one of the President's visits to your house, not far fl?om the time 
 of his visit to Saratoga, did Mr. Gould call upon him at your house ?— 
 A. Mr. Gould had an interview, but it would be impossible for me to fix 
 its date. I tax my memory in vain, 
 
 Q. Fix the time as near as you can. — ^A. There is nothing to arrest 
 my attention. There is nothing relative to the date that is marked upon 
 my memory. A notable thing connected with it is this : that after an 
 interview the general turned and spoke to Patrick — ^the boy who attends 
 the door — not angrily, (for he rarely shows anger,) but a little peevishly. 
 I do not recall the expression used, but the purport of it was, that he 
 was a little too easy in allowing Mr. Gould to have an interview. Thus 
 indicating annoyance. But the date of that incident, whether June or 
 September, I cannot fix. I remember the fact, because it was such an 
 unusual thing for the President to exhibit impatience. He then turned 
 around to his wife, who sat near by, and remarked, half ejaculatory, that 
 Gould was always trying to find something out of him. 
 
 Q. Did you invite Mr. Gould to your house on that occasion 1 — A. I 
 think not. 
 
 Q. Did you ever invite him to your house ? — A. It is possible. The 
 word " invitation" is pretty wide. In commenting on the importance of 
 the general theory which I explained a few minutes ago 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. Answer the question.; — A. I wish to answer it directly ; but by 
 making the answer circumlocutory I can make it more specific: I 
 amplify, not to dodge, but to develop the facts more fully. My impres- 
 sion is that I did tell him, specifically, that I desired him to call ; that 
 he would not find the President difflcult of access, or likely to be mi- 
 willing to have a full and free talk on the general subject of the currency 
 and business of the country. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Did he call, iu consequence of that remark of yours 1 — ^A. He may 
 or he may not have done so. Mr. Gould listens well, but quietly selects 
 lor himself his times and methods of approach towards men and meas- 
 ures. 
 
 Q. Who was present at his interview with the President ? — ^A. I pre- 
 sume no one. 
 
 Q. But yourself ? — A. I do not think I was present. The President 
 almost always gave separate interviews to , gentlemen who called upon 
 him, and I was rarely, if ever, present. 
 
 Q, Did you ever hear a conversation between the President and Mr. 
 Gould in relation to public policy'? — A. I think not. I may have done 
 so, but I think not. In talking amid a company it would scarcely be 
 considered a conversation between the President and any one else. 1 
 recollect hearing a very long and fuU conversation at Saratoga between 
 the President and Mr. Stewart — a conversation of several hours, and 
 covering the whole ground ; but I recollect no such conversation with 
 Mr. Gould. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Gould come to your house and see the President just 
 previous to the President's going to Washington, Pennsylvania? — A. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 247 
 
 Let me see how long the President was there, and what the chances 
 were. 
 
 The Chairman. It is not a question of chances. 
 
 The Witness. I do not recollect such an event. You can easily im- 
 agine that an old man, with the President's family and his own family 
 around, was fully occupied, and whether this gentleman called, or that 
 gentleman, on a given occasion, I cannot say. Mr. Stewart and Gov- 
 ernor Fish, and an immense number of gentlemen of more or less ijrom- 
 inence in the community, were there. My house was like a tavern ; and 
 for me to recoUect whether Mr. Gould came at such a time, or at such a 
 time, would be impossible. It would be unjust toward Mr. Gould for 
 me to affirm that he did or did not. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect at any of these interviews that the President told 
 you, in the presence of Mr. Jjould, that Secretary Boutwell had given 
 an order to sell gold ; and that he, being in Washington, saw it, or heard 
 of it, and countermanded the order ? — ^A. No ; never. I did not hear a 
 word of that in my life, and I do not believe a word of it. My belief is 
 that the President and Mr. Boi^weU have been always in accord. I 
 never heard of any discord between them. 
 
 By Mr. JuDD : 
 
 Q. As a general proposition, are we to understand that you do not 
 now recollect having, at any time, appointed for an interview between 
 Mr. Gould and the President? — A. I do not, specifically; but I do rec- 
 ollect having said to Mr. Gould that I desired he would have, and that 
 he should have, every facility to procure such interview ; and I may 
 have done so. I should say so, in justice to Mr. Gould. 
 
 Q. Do you mean it to be understood that, if such interview occurred, 
 you do not recollect any of the conversation that took place ? — A. Oh, 
 no. 
 
 Q. You mean us to understand you that you were not present so as 
 to listen to the conversation or take any part in the conversation ? — A. 
 I was not. I want to answer so as to be just. On two or three occa- 
 sions there were five or six or seven gentlemen present in my library, 
 which is a spacious one, among whom was Mr. Gould ; and whether he 
 may have made declarations then, or not, I really do not recollect ; other 
 gentlemen may. 
 
 Q. I was trying to direct your attention as to whether you recollect 
 that Mr. Gould ever had an interview at your house with the President 
 alone when you were present. — ^A. That is, all three being present. 
 There may have been such, though I cannot recall it, nor do I think it 
 likely. If you can mention some particular remark that was made, per- 
 haps I can teU you. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear them talk about the movement of the crops in 
 the interest of the country — this theory of yours and Mr. Gould's ? — 
 A. I do not recollect, but I have talked it myself much. 
 
 Q. Have you heard the President and Mr. Gould talk over these mat- 
 ters — over anything connected with the policy of the government in 
 relation to it ? — A. I do not recollect it. Mr. Gould was as full of it as 
 I was, and I feel assured that he did talk of it, but I do not recall that 
 I heard it. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Gould and the President tg,lk on the policy 
 of the government in relation to the currency? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Or about anything connected with the sale of gold 1 — A. I heard 
 
248 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 the President and Mr, Stewart talk it over, but I never heard any other 
 man talk with him about it. That is the only time I ever heard the 
 President speak unreservedly on the subject. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Gould talk to the President about it — the 
 President being reserved about it ? — A. I will not say that I did not, 
 because, as I have said before, it is possible ; but I really do not recall 
 anything of the kind. Mr. Gould could have talked with him, and did 
 talk with him several times. 
 
 Q. What was the subject of conversation between Mr. Gould and the 
 President and yourself at any of these interviews 1 — A. I must first 
 recollect the interview in order to tell what I said. 
 
 'Q. Do you mean to say that you never were present at any conversa- 
 tion Mr. Gould and the President had ? — A. I say this : that Mr. Gould 
 was there, I should think, two or three tinjes, and that there were con- 
 versations ; but whether they took a financial turn, or otherwise, I do 
 not know. But that he did talk with the President specifically, I know, 
 because of the President's feeling as though Mr. Gould — a sharp and 
 very able man — wanted to pry into tlie policy of the government. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. When the President was at your house, on his way to Pennsylva- 
 nia, do you recollect Mr. Gould and General Diven, either or both of 
 them, coming to your house and making arrangements for the trip to 
 Pennsylvania, and that, when they were about to depart, yourself say- 
 ing to Mr. Gould " Step back a moment;" that he then went back and 
 had a conversation with the President, while General Diven waited for 
 him in the front on the street for perhaps half an hour, at which time 
 you were present and a conversation was had in reference to the policy 
 of the government ? — A. Well, that recalls it. I do not recall whether 
 it -was on the first or second trip to Pennsylvania, but I do recollect that 
 General Diven did call. He is an acquaintance of mine. General 
 Diven was there. The going-out part I do not recollect. 
 
 Q. He did not stay in your house forever, did he ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. The question was whether you recollect that, as Mr. Gould was 
 about going away, you called him back, and that you and the President 
 and he were parties to a conversation in which the general financial policy 
 of the country was discussed ? — A. I do not think that that is likely. Gen- 
 eral Diven and Mr. Gould called ; that much is certain. General Diven is 
 a very pleasant gentleman; but that conversation part I do not recall. 
 
 By Mr. Judd : 
 
 Q. Do you n^ean us to understand that no such thing occurred as 
 your calling Mr. Gould back ? — A. Ah, that may be. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that you do not recollect it ? — ^A. I do not 
 recollect it. 
 
 Q. Do you mean us to understand that you do not recollect any con- 
 versation between yourself, the President, and Mr. Gould ? — A. No, sir ; 
 I am afraid of giving offense by my answer. If you allow me to" answer 
 in my own way 
 
 Q. Do you mean us to understand you do not recollect 1 — A. I do not. 
 I want to add a word of explanation which, I think, will be satisfactory. 
 I do not recall anything of that sort. I certainly told Mr. Gould thatJ 
 would aid him to procure an interview ; and therefore, if I thought 
 there was a chance then, I very likely may have said, "Mr, Gould, step 
 back and see the President." 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 249 
 
 By Mr. Cobuen : 
 Q. State whether any such conversation did or did not occur. — ^A. No 
 such conversation occurred in my presence. The President will tell you 
 that I always made a bow and retired, and was not present when he 
 had an interview with anybody. It is very likely that if, at that time, 
 I thought there was a good opportunity for Mr. Gould to have a talk 
 with the President, I may have told him so ; but I do not recollect it, 
 and I do not believe that the President, or anybody else, will say that I 
 was present at that interview, if there was one at that time. 
 
 By the' Ohaikman : 
 
 Q. Did the President teU yon that Mr. Boutwell had given an order 
 to sell gold, and that he, the President, had countermanded it? — 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. He never told you that 1 — A. No, sir ; nor do I believe that there 
 ever was such a transaction. 
 
 Q. Did you write a letter to be sent to the President while he was at 
 Washington, Pennsylvania ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Who carried that letter? — A. One of the messengers of Mr. Gould. 
 He sent a man up and I wrote a letter to General Porter, saying that 
 this was a messenger bearing a message to the President, and asking 
 him not to detain him, but to let him have an interview at an early and 
 convenient time. 
 
 Q. What was his name ? — A. I do not know ; he was a perfect stran- 
 ger to me. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Gould see that letter before it was sent ? — ^A. My impres- 
 sion is that I read it to him, but I am not sure of that. 
 
 Q. Did you write that letter on Mr. Gould's suggestion ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State the conversation which you. and Gould had preliminarily to 
 the writing of that letter. State it as fully and concisely as you can. — 
 A. He came to me and said, "I have made an honest effort to maintain 
 the price of gold," and believed that it would be carried over to Christ- 
 mas, and that his road would be benefited so and so. "And now," said 
 he, "here is Mr. Boutwell, represented by all of his leading friends in 
 the city as being disposed to crush down the market, to change the 
 policy of the government, and throw a vast amount of gold on the mar- 
 ket, and thus bring down its price. This report he does not deny, and 
 his silence causes it to be belifeved by the operators that there is to be 
 a great thrust of gold on the market." He desired that I should write 
 to the President, and say that it was believed by many that a change 
 in the policy of the government was about to take place. I sat down 
 and wrote a strong letter, and quite a long one, in which I took up all 
 these old theories very much at length — ^that is, the effect that a change 
 of policy would have ; that it would affect the elections very seriously, 
 and most certainly would affect the prosperity of the country, to cut off 
 even ten per cent, of the value of the crop of the country. I repre- 
 sented that the government should not reverse its policy and arbitrarily 
 interfere to |)ut down the price of gold just as the crops were maturing 
 and nearly ready to be marketed. (This was about the 16th or 17th of 
 September.) I said that all desired to see gold fall, and that it would 
 fall if the government was economical ; if the government collected its 
 revenues and lessened the interest on the public debt by funding it at 
 lower rates. 
 
 By Mr. Jtjdd : 
 
 Q. Was this in the letter ? — ^A. This was, in substance, in the letter ; 
 
250 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 also, that if we would fund the government bonds at lower rates, and 
 collect the revenues closely, it would ultimately and with certainty reduce 
 the price of gold. 
 
 Q. At the time you sent that letter, did or did you not know that Mr. 
 Gould was engaged in speculating in gold ? — ^A. I knew that he was 
 buying gold. That is, as near as I recollect, the scope and substance 
 of the letter. I kept no copy of it. It was written hastily at night in 
 my own library. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Gould there? — A. I am not certain whether he was pres- 
 ent while I was writing it. 
 
 Q. What time of night was it ? — A, It was on the night of the 16th 
 or 17th of September, and I probably got through with the letter at 
 about 9 or 10 o'clock. 
 
 Q. What did you say in addition? — A. That I believed cheap gold, the 
 desire of the government and of the people, could be attained just as 
 well after the crops were marketed as before that event. I assumed 
 that last year's balance of trade against the country was about one 
 hundred millions, and that if the price of gold was loWj'the balance of 
 trade against us would be increased ; that if, on the contrary, gold was 
 high, the balance against us would be lessened, the crops would be 
 marketed at high rates, and that if foreign balances against us were 
 lessened gold would be cheaper. If the crops were sold at low rates the 
 country would be left more in debt both at home and abroad. That was 
 the argument, and I therefore expressed a hope that no violent change 
 in the policy of the government would take place without most careful 
 consideration. 
 
 Q. How many pages did that letter cover? — ^A. I do not know. I 
 forget whether I used two sheets or not. 
 
 By Mr. Judd : 
 
 Q. How much gold was Mr. Gould carrying then? — A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. About how much? — A. He never told me. He is not a man to 
 needlessly communicate his affairs. He told me early in September that 
 he had bought largely — using some such word. He may have used that 
 or some other word; but he said that he was buying, or that he had 
 bought largely. I said to him, " Suppose gold should faU, woiild not 
 that be very injurious to you?" He said he thought not unless the fall 
 was considerable, because the accruing interest on the gold which he 
 had bought in order to control the market, would make it profitable of 
 itself. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Was there anything said in your letter in relation to Mr. Gould 
 and his purchases of gold? — ^A, I think not. His name was not 
 mentioned. 
 
 Q. Did you allude in the letter to any parties in New York having 
 bought largely of gold? — ^A. I did not. I can speak positively that I 
 gave expression to no personal interests in the letter. It was simply 
 protesting, on general principles, against a change of governmental 
 policy. I was not insensible to the fact that Mr. Gould applied to me 
 from motives which probably had become largely other than railroad 
 motives. I must take that offense, if it be one, on my own shoulders. 
 But I said nothing of a private character in the letter. 
 
 Q. When was that letter delivered by you to the messenger? — ^A. 1 
 think it was early in the morning of the day after it was written. 
 Mr. Gould, I now recollect, could not have read the letter. Mr. Gould 
 came to see me and I promised to write the letter, telling him I would 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 251 
 
 not go to bed until I had finished it, so that I could hand it next morn- 
 ing to his messenger who was to call for it. Therefore no human eye 
 did, in fact, see it. I think he gave the messenger a note to me so that 
 I should be certain to deliver it to the right person. 
 
 Q. Did you receive any answer to that letter? — ^A. IJo, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you receive any message, subsequently, from any person in 
 reference to the letter? — A. No, sir; and that was the cause of my mor- 
 tification. It received no more notice than if it had not been written. 
 
 Q. Did the messenger never send any word to you? — ^A. Ko. Mr. 
 Gould himself remarked that the messenger had telegraphed that he 
 got there. 
 
 Q. Did you after that show any letter to Mr, Gould, received from 
 any member of the President's family ? — A. I did ; yes. I should say 
 that that question is not rightfully phrased. I did not " show " any 
 letter ; but I read to him so and so. 
 
 Q. What did you read to him ? — ^A. "Well, I do not know. Let me 
 task my memory. It was a letter written to my wife — written appa- 
 rently in great distress. 
 
 By Mr. JoNES : 
 Q. "Written by whom ? — ^A. It was written by " Sis." 
 Q. Who? — A. It was written in a hurry — an affectionate letter; written 
 
 in haste. 
 Q. Who wrote the letter? — ^A. I am answering as specifically as human 
 
 phraseology can do it. 
 
 By Mr. JuDD : 
 
 Q. Who do you mean by " Sis ?" — A. I am seeking to explain. 
 
 Q. You can state the name ? — ^A. I am explaining, and cannot do it 
 in any better way than I am doing it. 
 
 Q. Will you answer that question ?— A. I will. I wiU not evade it, 
 nor am I capable of evasion. 
 
 Q. Who do you mean by " Sis ?"— A. I mean just what I say. That 
 was the signature to the letter. I am so agitated, and I wish the com- 
 mittee would notice I am a little excited, very weak, and very nervous. 
 I am perfectly broken down, and there is but a wreck left. A letter 
 came, as I was saying, signed " Sis." I have no doubt about it ; that is 
 the way in which many western ladies write. They sit down and write a 
 note and sign " In haste, Sis." I never received a letter from her, and 
 cannot swear to the handwriting of it; but have no doubt of its author- 
 ship. This letter came to my wife, evidently written ta great haste. I 
 think it was written in such a hurry in consequence of the family being 
 about to leave. The place where it was written was, I believe, not put 
 down. I have not seen the letter for four months. But in the mean 
 time I have no doubt of the fact that the place was not named. The 
 writer then speaks of the distress of the President (making use of the 
 word " distress") at the rumor which had reached them that the husbaad 
 of the lady addressed was speculating in WaU street. I think it was writ- 
 ten on Monday afternoon ; but it is difiScult to say. It was post-marked I 
 think, at Pittsburg ; possibly at some place on the road, near Washington 
 Pennsylvania. It probably was mailed on Tuesday. At any rate, it came 
 to me on Wednesday, September 22. I was very much excited, and my 
 wife still more so— such rumors were so disgraceful, as she thought. 
 Engaged in buying and selling gold ; what a terrible thing ! The world 
 is about to come to an end immediately ! And yet I never did have a 
 more unhappy day than I had when witnessing the distress which that 
 letter inflicted upon my wife. I must get out instantly— instantly! 
 
252 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Did the letter say that ? — A. 'So, sir ; my wife said it. 
 
 By Mr. Oox : 
 Q. Get out of what ? — A. I have answered that I was interested — not 
 myself directly ; but another being was, in whom I took a great interest, 
 to wit, my wife. 
 
 Q. Your wife said that you must get out instantly ? — A. That I must 
 instantly sell out her interest and retire from Wall street. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. Did I understand you to answer my question by saying that you 
 were not interested, but another was ? — A. Another was. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. State exactly the language of the letter, as nearly as you can. — A. 
 In that letter she says : The President was greatly distressed at the 
 rumor that your husband was speculating in Wall street, and hoped he 
 would instantly disconnect himself with anything of that sort. She 
 spoke with such directness and feeling that, while but few words were 
 used, they evidently were upon the assumption that there was something 
 about it so terrible, so disgraceful, that it wonderfully excited my wife, 
 to whom the letter was addressed. When Mr. Gould came in that 
 night, I at once read to him the substance of this letter, which had so 
 agitated my wife ; and then it was that I told Mr. Gould, at once, that 
 1 7niist go out of this matter ; that it had created a great deal of feeling 
 in my own family, as well as on the part of the President, and that the 
 matter must now end. 
 
 Q. What was the authority of the rumor ? Did it refer to any letter 
 of yours or your wife's about being interested in gold ? — A. There was 
 not a word said in the letter as to the authority. It only said the Pres- 
 ident is greatly distressed at the rumors that your husband is speculat- 
 ing, or interested in speculations in Wall street ; if it is true, he hopes he 
 will disconnect himself at once. 
 
 Q. Ton read that letter to Mr. Gould that evening, as I understand ; 
 did you put it into his hands ? — A. No, sir. The correspondence was 
 between two ladies. 
 
 Q. Did you show it to him so that he could see the handwriting 1 — A. 
 No, sir. We were in my library, sitting under one of the chandeliers, in 
 front of the table, so that he might possibly have looked over my shoulder 
 and seen it ; but I think him too much of a gentleman to do that. I was 
 looking over it some time, trying to decipher it ; it was written in pencil, 
 and my eyesight is dim ; it is possible he may have seen the handwrit- 
 ing, but not at aU likely. 
 
 Q. Is this the substance of the letter: "Tell your husband [or tell Mr. 
 Corbin] that my husband is very much annoyed by your speculations, 
 and you must close them as quick as you can f — A. No, sir ; not quite : 
 for instance, the word " annoyed " should be " distressed," and she said 
 the " President," and not "my husband." 
 
 Q. Have you stated the whole substance of the letter 1 — A. I think 
 so. It appears to me, but I am not sure of it, that there was a sentence 
 or two about the children. ,But whatever else there was in the letter 
 was about family matters. 
 
 Q. The letter of which we are speaking was signed " Sis," but you 
 have not yet stated whom you understood the letter to be from ? — A. I 
 can give you my belief on the subject. I had never seen the hand- 
 writing, so I could not by that means identify it as belonging to any par- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 253 
 
 ticular person ; but I have no hesitation in saying that I believe it was 
 from Mrs. Grant. 
 Q. It was so treated by your wifb? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Was the word "husband" used in the letter? Did it say "my 
 nusband " is distressed 1 — A. I think not. 
 
 Q, Are you sure it was signed " Sis 1" Or may not the letter have 
 been signed by the writer's full name, and the postscript signed " Sis ?" 
 A. I am very sure that "Sis" was the signature to the letter. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Gould ever buy any gold for you, or on your order? — A. 
 Never, in his life. ^ 
 
 Q. Did he ever propose to buy any gold for you? — ^A. Yes, sir ; or 
 rather he offered to let me have some of what he then possessed. 
 
 Q. When 1 — A. The documents will show, (referring to memoranda.) 
 It was on the 2d of Septemiber, 1869. 
 
 Q. What was it that occurred on the 2d of September between your- 
 self and Mr. Gould ? — ^A. If you will be patient with a nervous old man 
 I wiU state the matter fully. My first wife had children ; I had none. 
 I had been in the habit of buying bonds for her account, on which I 
 made for her handsome sums. I desu'ed to repeat the same practice for 
 my second wife. On the 24:th of July, I therefore purchased and depos- 
 ited in the Bank of America, where I always do my business, two hun- 
 dred and fifty thousand dollars in bonds, indicating to my wife that she 
 was to have a named share of the profits which I presumed would accrue 
 from the rise in bonds, which I anticipated would take place in conse- 
 quence of the economy of the government, and for other reasons. I 
 state this to show that my conduct was in accordance with my theory 
 about the appreciation of good securities. Time ran on through July 
 and August, and the tendency, as you will recollect, was all the time 
 downward, and instead of profits coming in, losses were accruing on the 
 $250,000 of bonds on which I had told my wife I was going to give her 
 a portion of the profits. I got home from Saratoga on the 30th of Au- 
 gust, and Mr. Gould called to see me very soon thereafter. He spoke to 
 me, as he had repeatedly done before, about taking a certain amount of 
 gold owned by him. I finally told Mr. Gould that for the sake of a 
 lady, my wife, I would accept of $500,000 of gold for her benefit, as I 
 shared his confidence that gold would rise. 
 
 Q. Did you execute an order for Mr. Gould to buy that sum for 
 you? — A. No, sir. I never gave him an order to buy anything. He said 
 itie was the owner of a large amount of gold, and would let me have 
 $500, 000. I told him I never had bought a dollar of gold, and at my 
 time of life I was not going into a gold speculation ; but that for the 
 sake of my wife I would for her accept his offer. 
 
 Q, Did you accept it as a present?— A. Oh, no ; he said he had it, 
 and would let me have it. There was no present about it. I will use 
 his language as near as I can. He said, " I have so-and-so, and I wiU 
 let you have this amount." 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. The substance of it. was, you were authorized to place $500,000 in 
 gold to your wife's credit as a purchaser? — A. If you will let me use his 
 exact language you will understand what was meant. Said Gould : "I 
 have a large amount of gold, and I wiU let you have, at cost price, with- 
 out charging you any advance, half a million." I replied, "I will accept 
 it for my wife." My understanding was that she took the gold with all 
 its responsibility ; that she stood in his shoes, so far as that was con- 
 
254 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 cerned. The idea of going into the market and buying gold was some- 
 thing that never entered my mind. The price of the gold, I think, was 
 132 or 133, I forget which. He afterward insisted that I should 
 take a million more, and I did so, on the same conditions, for my wife. 
 He then sent me this paper. I desired that the whole matter should 
 ■ throughout be treated confidentially. I told him it would hurt me if it 
 came out, and I did not want it to get out that I was in any way con- 
 nected with gold. In order that it should not, he responded by sending 
 me this paper, in which he puts down a transaction with his firm and a 
 blank party, thus making the transaction informal, confidential, and de- 
 pendent upon the honor of the two parties. 
 The paper is as follows : 
 
 Smith, Gould, Mabtin & Co., Bankers. 
 11 Broad Street. 
 
 New Tokk, September 3, 1869. 
 
 Mr. : 
 
 Dear Sir : We have bought for your account and risk — 
 
 500,000 gold, 132, E. 
 1,000,000 gold, 133f, E. 
 wbicli we will carry on demand, with the right to use. 
 
 SMITH, GOULD, MARTIN & CO. 
 Simpson. 
 
 This paper was carried in my pocket for a long time. I had forgotten 
 that I had such a paper. 
 
 Q. iEow came that in your possession ? — A. It seems it must have 
 been given me after the second transaction, for, as you see, the two 
 transactions are stated on the same sheet. So far as the paper was con- 
 cerned, it being in blank, it was no conveyance to anybody, and conse- 
 quently of no value ; so it passed wholly out of my mind. The whole 
 thing was a matter of honor ; he could pay me or not, as he chose. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Did not you understand it to be a memorandum of this transac- 
 tion ? — A. It looked to me to be a mere memorandum of honor. 
 
 Q. Did you not keep a bank account 1 — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Was not this gold entered in your bank-book ?— A. No ; I did not 
 even enter it in my own private memorandum-book. 
 
 Q. Did you keep no note of it as a private transaction? — A. No; I 
 do not keep books myself. I never kept any memorandum in regard 
 to it. 
 
 Q. Did you deposit any money as a margin ? — ^A. No ; nor my wife. 
 
 Q. Did he ask you to deposit any?— A. No. I never had such a 
 transaction before in my life. 
 
 Q. Did you understand it to be a bond fide business transaction when 
 you accepted it? — ^A. Yes ; but it is all a mere matter of promise ; he 
 gave me nothing to show for it. He simply said, " I will let you have 
 this;" he said nothing about any margin nor consideration. 
 
 By the Chaikman : 
 Q. State to the committee what the reason was, so ftir as you know, 
 or can judge from the whole matter, for Mr. Gould's offering to carry for 
 your wife a million and a half of gold ? What relations existed between 
 you and Mr. Gould that led him to make such an offer ? — A. I can say 
 nothing about that, of course ; I can only tell you that Mr. Gould wanted 
 me to do it. He said he was loaded very heavily, and would be very 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 255 
 
 glad to let me have some. At Ms request, I had written an article for 
 publication, in which I had advocated thie upholding of the public 
 credit. 
 
 By Mr. Smith: 
 Q. "Was there anything you were to say or do in consideration of this 
 transaction ? — A. O, no ; I wiU do Mr. Gould the justice to say that 
 neither he, nor anybody else, so far as I know, ever in their lives pro- 
 posed to give any money, or stock, or anything else, to operate upon any 
 offlcer of the government. 
 
 By Mr. JONES : 
 Q. Was there any understanding between you and Mr. Gould that if 
 he did you this favor you were to exercise your influence with the Presi- 
 dent or any officer of the government to prevent the sale of gold by the 
 Secretary of the Treasury ? — ^A. Never. Never even spoken of. 
 
 By Mr. JuDD : 
 
 Q. When was it that you wrote that letter ? — ^A. I think it was on the 
 17th of September. 
 
 Q, When you wrote it you had this interest of a million and a half? — 
 A. No, sir ; on the 6th, I think it was, I told Mr. Gould that gold had 
 gone up to 137, and I should like to have this mutter realized. This 
 was two days after the receipt of the paper or memorandum. I said to 
 him I would like to realize on that half million. He had merely said, 
 " I will let you have so and so, but gave me, as I supposed, no legal 
 control over the $500,000; therefore I said to him, let me realize on that 
 and get the proceeds, and I will be obliged to you. He said, " Certainly, 
 I will do it." Whether he actually sold the gold or not I do not know. 
 I think the amount he reported as coming to my wife was five per cent, 
 of the investment. As the whole matter was confidential, I do not know 
 what he did, only as he reported to me ; he brought me a check on the 
 6th, which I deposited in my bank on the morning of the 7th Septem- 
 ber. I see by my memoranda that I started that morning for Danbury, 
 Connecticut, in company With the President's wife ; I must therefore 
 have gone to bank early to be able to deposit that check that day ; I 
 know I added a thousand dollars to it, and made payment with it on a 
 note I owed the bank, $26,000, on these bonds of the United States 
 which I had purchased for my wife and myself on the 24th of July, 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 Q. How was that check drawn? — ^A. I think itVas drawn payable to 
 Mr. Gould, so that I need not sign it. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Q. Did you enter into this transaction with Mr. Gould on your own 
 motion, or at tbe request of other parties ? — ^A. It was at the sole request 
 of Mr. Gould himself. 
 
 Q. Did your wife at that time know that you had made that transac- 
 tion ? — A. No ; I informed her afterward ; she had no knowledge of the 
 transaction until I told her what I had done. 
 
 Q. State what you did when the letter came requesting you to get out 
 of any speculation you might be engaged in. — A. I was very much dis^ 
 tressed about the matter, and told Mr. Gould that this thing must end ; 
 I must write; and it must be true that I had not a particle of interest in 
 the business, either direct or indirect ; that I must write to the President 
 that night. I told Mr. Gould that as I had no legal claim I was wholly 
 in his power, and he could pay something or nothing, as he chose. Gold 
 
256 aOLD PAifIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 was then, as I remarked, 140 or 141. I said, " Mr. Gould, I want you to 
 pay me the full amount of the difference at 141 — or whatever the price 
 was — if you will ; if you will not do that, I will take three-fourths, or I 
 will take one-half, or I will take a thousand dollars — it depends entirely 
 upon you ; I leave it wholly to your honor." Mr. Gould said he was very 
 much concerned ; he interpreted that letter to mean that the President 
 was offended ; that was the interpretation he placed upon that hasty 
 letter of the lady. " Now," said he, " if I close this transaction, as you 
 suggest, there may be a breakdown in the market, and will be, if the 
 government should interfere, and how can I afford to pay you?" He 
 seemed very much oppressed, and said to me, " Will you please say 
 nothing until you see me to-morrow morning ? " Next morning he came 
 to my house and said, " Mr. Gorbin, I cannot give you anything if you 
 will go out." Here we parted — my wife preferring a settlement to 
 the brilliant offer. This was on the morning of the 23d — Thursday. My 
 wife, who had followed me to the head of the stairs, said to me before I 
 met him, " I do not care what is done, but you mmt give that up." And 
 then I did what I think it would have troubled almost any other busi- 
 ness man to consent to do — refuse $100,000 on a rising market. Mr, 
 Gould said, " If you will remain in and take the chances of the market 
 I will give you my check for $100,000." If I had not been an old man 
 married to a middle-aged woman I should have done it, (of course, with 
 her consent,) just as sure as the offer was made. I said: "Mr. Gould, 
 my wife says, ' No ; Ulysses thinks it wrong, and that it ought to end.' " 
 So I gave it up. Mr. Gould stood there for a little while looking very 
 thoughtful — exceedingly thoughtful. He then left — about 10 o'clock — 
 and went into Wall street; and twenty-six hours afterward gold stood 
 at 164. He seemed to have gone into the movement with the despera- 
 tion of a man who thought that everything was dependent upon instant 
 and energetic action ; and my impression is that he it was, and not the 
 government, that broke that market. I know not, but believed his mind 
 devised the successful upward movement of the 23d and 24th. 
 
 Q. What did Mr. Gould say when you refused to take the check ? — ^A. 
 My impression is that he was as much astonished as a man well could 
 be ; and he looked at me with a look of severe distrust, as if he was 
 afraid of treachery in the camp. He remarked, "Mr. Corbin, I am un- 
 done, if that letter gets out." 
 
 Q. Eeferring to Mrs. Grant's letter 1— A. To this letter of "Sis "to 
 my wife. My response to that was something like this : that when a 
 person sends me a letter saying that he is distressed at rumors at my 
 expense, I am not going to publish it; and therefore, I said, you need 
 not have any anxiety of mind on that account. And I never did read 
 any part of that letter to any man living, except Jay Gould ; and 
 whether he named it to any one — even to Mr. Fisk — I do not know. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Gould ever do anything in settlement for that million of 
 gold 1 — A. No, sir, he did not. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether he ever drew a check for that himdred thou- 
 sand dollars ? — A. He may or he may not have drawn it ; if he did, I 
 never saw it. He did not exhibit a check to me. 
 
 Q. Did you ever, at any time, either by word or by letter or by mes- 
 sage, inform the President or any of the President's family, or any of 
 his officers, clerks, associates, or other persons attached to his oificial 
 household in Washington, of this transaction between you and Gould? — 
 A. To that question, in its broadest sense, I answer " No, never." 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. Do you know how Mrs. Grant came to hear that you were con- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 257 
 
 nected with these speculations 1 — A. No. She may have seen reports to 
 that effect in the newspapers; the President and Mr. Boutwell, I think, 
 have heard many offensive reports against, me; I do not know from 
 what source those offensive rumors flowed. 
 
 Q. Your wife never knew of this transaction until it was completed? — 
 A. Not until Mr. Gould had said to me, as I have stated, " I will let you 
 have it." I never gave an order to buy, but accepted for her what h-^d 
 been bought theretofore. 
 
 Washington, January 28, 1870. 
 A. E. OoRBiN recalled and examination continued. 
 
 By the Ohaieman : 
 
 Q. When we left off yesterday afternoon you were completing the 
 history of your interviews and transactions with Jay Gould. The last 
 one which you detailed was that wherein Mr. Gould offered you a hundred 
 thousand dollars to continue in the gold transactions between yourself 
 and him, and you refused it. Was that interview the last of your inter- 
 views with Jay Gould before the breakdown? — A. I think it was, but I 
 am not certain. This was on Thursday, the 23d, in the morning after 
 breakfast, and he may have called on Thursday night, but I do not recol- 
 lect it, and 1 do not think it is likely. 
 
 Q. When next did you see Mr. Gould after the breakdown ? — A. I 
 think he sent round a note on Friday evening to say that he would like 
 to see me at the Erie office on Twenty-third street. 
 
 Q. State the substance of that interview. — ^A. Not much was said. 
 Mr. Gould looked very sedate. There appeared to be in his room a con- 
 siderable number of persons, and instead of going in he took me to a 
 small room adjacent, where we could have a few words. But little was 
 said. I thought he was depressed — quite depressed; but stiU it is diffi- 
 cult to read a man reticent as he. 
 
 Q. State particularly what he said about the transactions of the 
 day. — A. I think he described no particular transaction. He thought 
 the gold market was broken down ; that it was entirely prostrate ; that 
 the whole thing was at an end. 
 
 Q. What thing do you refer to? — ^A. The whole of his gold operations, 
 whatever their extent. 
 
 Q. Why did he send for you? What did the transaction disclose as 
 to the object of his sending for you ? — A. I have no particular idea ; I 
 think he had learned to look upon me as a man of sense in such mat- 
 ters, and as truly friendly to him. He was very much in the habit of 
 coming to my library and talking with me, with confidence and respect ; 
 and I think I was entitled to both, for I never trifled with him ; and 
 when a great calamity came upon him he sent for me, as he would for 
 any other respectable citizen whom he visited frequently. He looked 
 sorrowful, and I think he felt so. Toward the close of the interview, 
 which was short, Mr. Fisk came into the room, and I think he said that 
 his sistfer, or his sister's son, was ruined, and made a few general decla- 
 rations relative to his losses, which I recollect to have thought very 
 severe. That was on Friday night. 
 
 Q. If you recollect anything else that was said, please state it. — ^A. 
 Nothing, except in a very general way ; Mr. Fisk, for instance, remarked, 
 speaking of the extent of ruin to himself personally, that Governor 
 BoutweU sent about noon a dispatch, and had thrown gold upon the 
 market, and that the market had gone right down. 
 H. Eep. 31 17 
 
258 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Did he complain of you in that interview ? — A. There was not a 
 word or thought of complaint against me by either of them ; no series 
 of words contained a word reflecting on me. On Saturday Mr. Gould 
 requested me to come around to the Erie oflBice 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Before you proceed to Saturday let me ask you as to this Friday's 
 interview; whether anything was said about your transaction for a mil- 
 lion and a half of dollars ? — A. ]S"ot a breath. 
 
 By Mr. JoNES : 
 Q. Did not Mr. Fisk come up to your house on Friday? — A. No, sir; 
 . I think not. I think that the first talk that I ever had with Mr. Fisk 
 upon money matters was when he came into the side room where I was 
 with Mr. Gould. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. I want you to follow Gould, and not to take in Fisk in your narra- 
 tive, except where he comes in with Gould ? — A. I think it would be as 
 difficult to separate them in this matter of Saturday's interview as it 
 would be to divorce the Siamese twins. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with .T. Fisk, junior ? — A. I know him. 
 
 Q. Wlien did you first see him 1 — A. I do not know ; perhaps at the 
 Fifth Avenue Theater. When General Grant was at my house we went 
 round to that theater by invitation one night, and I think that was the 
 time that I was first introduced to Mr. Fisk. 
 
 Q. Then you first saw him in the summer or fall of 1869 f — A. Tes, 
 sir ; that is my first recollection of meeting him ; the first time he made 
 any imi^ression upon me. 
 
 Q. Were you ever introduced to him by a man named Catherwood 1— 
 A. It may have been he who introduced me. Mr. Fisk was one of the 
 owners of the Fifth Avenue Theatre, and was there. I do not think 
 Mr. Catherwood Avas there. If Mr. Fisk was introduced to me by him, 
 it probably was upon a later occasion. 
 
 Q. Previously to the day of the breakdown did Mr. Fisk bring a let- 
 ter of introduction to you from Mr. Gould or anybody else ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Fisk ever call upon you at your house previously to the 
 breakdown Friday? — A. Never. 
 
 Q. Tou swear that with absolute certainty of recollection? — A. I 
 swear it with absolute fullness, that I had no conversation upon financial 
 matters with him, in any shape, prior to the breakdown. 
 
 Q. Let me read some words to you, for your assent or dissent, (reading 
 Mr. Fisk's testimony as to his going to see Mr. Corbin with a letter of 
 introduction from Mr. Gould.) Does that statement represent the 
 truth ? — A. It does not, in any form. 
 
 Q. Does that statement represent any truth ? — A. None whatever ; it 
 is absolutely untrue ; it is all coined. 
 
 Q. Did any such interview as that between yourself and J. Fisk, jr., 
 ever occur ? — A. Never ; before nor after the breakdown ; nothing of 
 the sort. It is impossible for it to be true. 
 
 Q. Did you ever tell Mr. J. Fisk, jr., that Mrs. Grant had any interest 
 in any gold or stocks purchased through you, or by any other person iu 
 connection with you ? — A. No ; in no form. I never told him anything 
 of the sort ; and he knows it. On Saturday, the 25th, I told him the 
 reverse. 
 
 Q. Or that anything was ever purchased through you, or in connec- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 259 
 
 tion witli you, for General Porter ? — A. Never. I never had a transac- 
 tion with General Porter in any form to the amount of a dollar. 
 
 Q. Did anything of the kind I have described occur on Monday cr 
 Tuesday night previous to the breakdown, or on Sunday ? — ^A. At no 
 time. Mr. Fisk never was in my house in his life until after the break- 
 down, so far as I know, ever heard, or believe. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. State whether you had ever bought any gold or stocks for Mrs. 
 Grant or any of the family of the President ? — A. Never in my life have 
 I bought a dollar, directly or indirectly, for Mrs. Grant or any member 
 of that household. > 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Do you know of any gold being purchased for Mrs. Grant by any- 
 body? — ^A. No, sir; I do not. 
 
 Q. She had no interest, directly or indirectly, in that matter ? — A. No 
 interest, directly or indirectly. 
 
 Q. Did you ever tell anybody at any time that she had ? — ^A. Never. 
 I had never heard of such a transaction, and therefore never even 
 thought of making such a statement. 
 
 By Mr. JUDD : 
 
 Q. What did you do with that $25,000 that Mr. Gould paid you ?— A. 
 The check was dated on the 6th of September, and was brought to me 
 on the evening of the 6th. Next morning I went to the Bank of America 
 and deposited it, and here is the entry of the deposit in my bank book. 
 The entry says " September 7th, $25,000," with the let,ter " W," being 
 the initial of the receiving teller, Mr. Watson. On that same day I 
 drew a check in favor of the bank, which I now present to the committee. 
 
 Witness presented the original check, of which the following is a copy : 
 
 $26,000. New York, September 7, 1869. 
 
 Bank of America: 
 Pav to Bank of America twenty-six thousand dollars. 
 
 A. E. COEBIN. 
 
 Witness also produced a statement rendered to him by the Bank of 
 America of his account with that bank. The following is a copy : 
 
 Loan of July 24, 1869. 
 
 A.E.CorlDin $302,637 45 
 
 Less paid August 27 $19,526 94 
 
 Less paid September 7 26, 000 00 45, 526 94 
 
 Amount due October 7. .'. 257,110 51 
 
 Accrued interest to date 4, 049 88 
 
 261, 160 39— Margin at 12 per cent., $292, 499 
 Collaterals. 
 $245,000 United States sixes of 1867, at 117=$286, 650. 
 
 By Mr. PACKER : 
 Q. Then this check for $26,000 was applied to an indebtedness which 
 originated as early as July 24, 1869 ? — ^A. Tes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Oox : 
 Q. You paid no money since to any person on that account ? — A. No, 
 sir : not a dollar or a cent. 
 Q. To any human being'? — ^A To no human being. 
 
260 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. You are under no obligation or promise to pay any human being ?— 
 A. Not even an intimation of any kind. I state that in the broadest 
 and most ^lnqaalifled way. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 The memorandum book that you exhibited to the committee yester- 
 day, were the records in it made up at the time of the dates therein 
 named or since ? — A. They were made up at the time of the dates. 
 
 By Mr. BurCHAED : 
 
 Q. For whose account was that purchase of bonds, mentioned in that 
 bank statement ? — A. That purchase of $245,000 United States bonds 
 was made on the 24th of July, on account of myself and my wife. 
 
 Q. Was it for the benefit of any other person 1 — A. ISTo, sir ; no per- 
 son but myself and my wife had an interest therein. 
 
 By the Ohairman : 
 
 Q. Did Mr. J. Eisk, jr., call at your house on Thursday morning, the 
 morning before the breakdown ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he meet you anywhere on that morning ? — ^A. I do not know, 
 but believe he did not. 
 
 Q. I will fix it more specifically. There were two interviews with 
 Gould to which you have testified. One when Mr. Gould made the 
 offer of a hundred thousand dollars, which was in the evening, and the 
 other the next morning, when you declined the offer. Did Mr. Pisk 
 call upon you between those two interviews of Mr. Gould ? — ^A. He did 
 not. Gould came to my house in the morning immediately after break- 
 fast. 
 
 Q. Can you swear with positive certainty that Mr. Pisk did not call 
 upon you between the two interviews with Mr. Gould? — A. I can. Mr. 
 Gould was there in the night of Wednesday and came back in the morn- 
 ing of Thursday, before I went out, and there was no opportunity for 
 Mr. Fisk to come in the meantime, unless he came at an unusual hour, 
 that no one would be likely tO' forget. 
 
 Q. Let me read to you a statement of Mr. Fisk's, (reading from Mr. 
 Fisk's testimony as to an interview with Mr. Corbin on Thursday even- 
 ing before the breakdown;) did that interview take place according to 
 the statement I have read ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. On Thursday morning before the breakdown ? — A. At no time. 
 
 Q. On Wednesday evening before the breakdown ? — A. I have an- 
 swered no, and repeat the answer. 
 
 Q. Did the interview, as there described, or any such interview, take 
 place before the breakdown ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. At any time before the breakdown on Friday, did J. Fisk^ jr., call 
 at your house and have an interview with yourself and your wife ? — A. 
 Never. 
 
 Q. Before that time, did J. Fisk, jr., ever say to you that he wanted 
 to see your wife on the subject ? — A. Never. 
 
 Q. Pre\dously to the breakdown, did you at any time or place say to 
 Mr. Fisk that you wanted him to see your wife ? — ^A. No, sir ; never. 
 I never thought of such a thing. 
 
 Q. Do you on your oath swear that the statement which I have read is 
 a false statement?— A. I say there is no truth in it, and therefore it is 
 false. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. J. Fisk," jr., call at your house on the day or on the even- 
 ing of Friday ? — A. I think not, without being certain. 
 
. GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 261 
 
 Q. Tou think he did not ? — ^A. I think not ; I was at the Erie office 
 Friday night. 
 
 Q. Did you meet Mr. JFisk anywhere on Friday or on Friday evening ; 
 and if so, where ? — ^A. I saw him in tliat little room where I had the 
 conversation with Mr. Gronld, in the Erie office. Mr. Fisk came in 
 toward the close of the conversation and spoke of the ruin of his sister, 
 or of his sister's son, I forget which, and the great loss which he and 
 relatives had sustained. He came in there incidentally, and half apolo- 
 gized for the intrusion. I never had had any transaction with him. 
 That was the first time he appeared on the stage to even tallc about gold. 
 
 Q. Let me read this statement to you, (reading from Mr. Fisk's testi- 
 timony as to his return from Wall street on Friday afternoon, and his 
 visit to Corbin's house ;) is that statement generally true ? — A. No, sir ; 
 there is no truth in it. 
 
 Q. Did no such interview take place between yourself and Mr. Fisk, 
 at your house, at any time on Friday, the day of the breakdown ? — A. 
 'So, sir. 
 
 Q. Did any iuterview 'W^hatever take place between you and him ? — 
 A. To the best of my recollection he was not in my house that day or 
 night. 
 
 Q. Where were you Friday ? — A. On Friday I was over in New Jer- 
 sey. I did business with my agent there, and I did business at the city 
 hall in Hudson County, New Jersey. When I came home, I received a 
 note from Mr. Gould, requesting me to go to the Erie office. 
 
 Q. What time did you get home ? — A. It was late in the afternoon, 
 for I recollect buying a copy of an evening paper when I was crossing 
 over from Jersey City, and reading an account of the breakdown in 
 gold. That was the first account of it which I obtained. 
 
 Q. You have testified that you saw Mr. Fisk that evening at the Brie 
 office ; did any conversation between yourself and Mr. Fisk occur ; any- 
 thing like what I have read to you "I— A. Oh, not at all; everything was 
 polite and gentlemanly. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Fisk say to you upon that occasion that you were the, 
 cause, or in part the cause, of the breakdown ? — A. No, sir. There was 
 not a particle of reproach, in any form. 
 
 Q. Did he reproach you in any way with your part in the transac- 
 tion ? — A. Oh, no. Not a word. I thought him worried with a then 
 belief that he had sustained losses. 
 
 Q. Did he in any way allege that you were at fault in the transac- 
 tion ? — A. No ; neither he nor Mr. Gould. 
 
 Q. Was your wife present at the interview in the Erie railroad office ? — 
 A. No, sir; that jvas no place for a lady; it was a public business 
 office. 
 
 Q. Did such an interview as here described occur at your house on 
 Saturday, the day after the break ? — No, sir ; nor at any" other time. 
 
 Q. Did you have any interview either with Fisk or Gould on that 
 Saturday? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Where did it occur? — ^A. At the Erie office, on Twenty-third 
 street. * 
 
 Q. At about what hour ? — ^A. I think it was some time in the after- 
 noon of the day. 
 
 Q. Who was present at that interview ? — A. Mr. Fisk and Mr. Gould. 
 For a few minutes Mr. Fisk was alone, but Mr. Gould soon came in.' 
 
 Q. Were any other persons present at that interview besides Fisk and 
 Gould ?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. No other human being known to you was present 'J — A. No other 
 
262 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. . 
 
 human being, it being wholly confidential ; once or twice some one came 
 to the door on matters of business, and the conversation then ceased 
 until the person left and the door was again closed. 
 
 Q. Now, what occurred on that occasion ? — A. Mr. Fisk was there 
 when I went in. I asked Mm how Mr. Gould felt after the great calam- 
 ity the day before. He remarked ; '' Oh, he has no courage at all. He 
 has sunk right down. There is nothing left of him but a heap of clothes 
 and a pair of eyes." Pretty soon Mr. Gould came in, and Fisk began to 
 work himself up into a state of excitement. I could not, at first, pene- 
 trate his object. 
 
 By Mr. JuDD : 
 
 Q. Tell us what he said ? — A. After a little conversation, as before 
 stated, Mr. Gould came in. Mr. Gould throughout behaved with man- 
 liness and character ; Mr. Fisk began to tell again, as the night before, 
 of the ruin of his sister or his sister's son, and that he was going now 
 to have a general reckoning — going to have everybody come up and 
 settle. After expressing himself very freely, and very loudly, and with 
 great strength of voice, and wonderful gesticulation, he went on to say 
 he had determined that Butterfleld should pay so and so, and had sent a 
 man after him, and all that ; and he was going to do this, and do that. 
 He was very declarative. 
 
 Q. What did he say ? — A. Speaking of General Butterfleld, he said 
 that if he did not come right up and settle, he was going to sell him out. 
 He spoke that, as I began to suspect, as a kind of preface to approaching 
 me ; and then, for the first time, I heard of Mrs. Grant in connection 
 with gold operations, and I instantly supposed that an attempt was to 
 be made to make me shell out some of what ho supposed my superflui- 
 ties to protect the character of the family of my brother-in-law. He 
 began to say : " Hov/ is this, how is this ? I have been deceived by some- 
 body ! " "Not by me," said I, " for you and I never exchanged a word on 
 thissubject. You have not been deceived by me!" "Well," said he, "if we 
 had not had confidence in you, do you suppose we would have gone on ? " 
 "I do not make any supposition about it," said I, " only that I never 
 attempted to inspire you with confidence," and so on, interspersed with 
 some sharp passages. Among other things he said : " Where is that 
 $100,000 that Gould gave you?" I turned upon him and said: "Mr. 
 Gould never gave me $100,000, and he will tell you so." Mr. Gould, show- 
 ing a good deal of excitement, said : " That is accounted for." " Accounted 
 for or not accounted for," said I, " I never have even seen any $100,000." 
 " Well," saidMr. Fisk, " where is the $25,000 for Mrs. Grant?" " Stop that," 
 said I, "Mrs. Grant's name never has been mentioned in that connection by 
 any human being, and you shall not mention it. It is as false as anything 
 can be, and it is not to be named to me." Mr. Gould sat there perfectly quiet. 
 I should have lost my self-possession had the siibject been pursued. The 
 interview la.sted for about an hour, and perhaps longer, and ended with 
 quieting down all around. Mr. Fisk, toward the close of it, made a 
 suggestion which I thought was a sensible one. He said that the bears had 
 been buying very extensively within the last two or three days at 140,145, 
 150, and 155, while the bulls had been also buying at yet higher rates; that 
 the market was broken ; and that, if Secretary Boutwell would adver- 
 tise on Monday that he would not sell any gold until November, they 
 could go around on Sunday and see the principal operators of both 
 parties, and agree upon a settling price for gold, and thereby save large 
 losses to all concerned. That struck me as very sensible, and I said : ' 
 " Very well, I think the government will do that." I did not know, of 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIOATION. 263 
 
 course, that it would. I was quite unwell and had been unwell for sev- 
 eral days, and it was a serious thing for an old man to make a night jour- 
 ney of 250 miles; but I told them I would undertake it. Then Mr. 
 Fisk made what I believe to have been his first appearance at my house. 
 So anxious vrere they that I should start for Washington that night, 
 that they came around to my house some little time before the hour for 
 starting. My wife, as I was ill, said she would go with me to Washing- 
 ton; and coming down to the library with me, saw Messrs. Pisk and 
 Gould ; but there was no conversation except what was entirely polite 
 and kind in tone and temper. There was no special conversation about 
 gold, only that Mr. Fisk said : " You telegraph us to-morrow if the gov- 
 ernment will forbear ; and anything you say we will act upon, for we 
 have perfect confidence in you." 
 
 Q. In the conversation in the Erie office which you have detailed, was 
 the subject of your investment, or of Gould's investment for you, dis- 
 cussed ? — A. Only in the way I have named, mere general denunciation. 
 We were all angry except Mr. Gould ; he was perfectly cool. 
 
 Q. Was the million and a half of gold which Mr. Gould bad bought 
 for you specifically discussed that evening ? — A. Not at all. 
 
 Q. Were there any propositions to settle ?— A. S"ot at aU. 
 
 Q. On your part or their part ? — A. Not at aU. That had been settled 
 by Mr. Gould and myself on Thursday morning. 
 
 By Mr. Packek : 
 Q. State whether you had seen Fisk at any time on Friday previous 
 to the interview at the Erie raUroad office ? — A. No, sir. I went to New 
 Jersey on that day and he to Wa;ll street. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 Q. How was the interview at the Erie railroad office brought about? — 
 A. I was sent for. 
 Q. Who sent for you? — A. Mr. Gould. Mr. Fisk never sent for me. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Was anything said at the Erie office about Mr. Boutwell acting in 
 violation of the strict orders not to sell gold ? — A. I think not. 
 
 Q. What was said about the Secretary of the Treasury there ? — A. I 
 do not recollect th^^t his name was mentioned at all at that interview ; 
 yet it may have been. 
 
 Q. Was anything said about Boutwell acting in connection with the 
 bears? — A. They firmly beheved that he was acting in connection with 
 the bears, and may have said so on that occasion, but I think not. 
 
 Q. Did they say anything about it in that interview ? — A. Not at that 
 interview, I think, but they, (that is Mr. Gould,) firmly believed he was 
 with the bears. 
 
 Q. Did they mention any of the bears by name ? — A. I guess not. I 
 know Mr. Gould used to say that the bears had sent on Prank Howe to 
 Massachusetts to indoctrinate the Secretary on his way from Massachu- 
 setts to New York. 
 
 Q. Was any other name mentioned in connection witk bearing gold ? — 
 A. Yery likely, but I do not recollect. 
 
 Q. Was there anything more specific said on that occasion about But- 
 terfleld ? — A. Yes. Mr. Fisk said that he had written a note to General 
 Buttertield to come up and settle or he would sell him out. 
 
 Q. Did they mention to you any transaction which they had with 
 Butterfleld in that business ? — ^A. No. Mr. Fisk said they sent for him 
 to settle or they would sell him out. I told theln at once : " If Butter- 
 
264 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 field has made a contract with you I certainly think he will do the hon- 
 orable thing ; do not push ; see him." 
 
 By Mr. JONES : 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Fisk charge you in that interview with having deceived 
 them in having led them to believe that yoa knew the intentions of the 
 President ? — No, sir. I had never claimed to possess them. 
 
 Q. Was any reference made during {hat interview to the letter sent 
 by you to the President ? — A. Ko, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. We now come down to Saturday evening after the interview at 
 the Erie railroad office ; at what time did Pisk and Gould come to your 
 house ? — A. Just before we started. We started at 8.30 or 9.30. 
 
 Q. State as substantially and briefly as you can what occurred at that 
 interview? — A. They merely came, so far as I recall the occasion, to see 
 that I would go off, and to enjoin me to telegraph the result promptly. 
 I do not recollect anything special at that interview. 
 
 Q. Did they come into your parlor? — A. No ; they were shown into 
 the library. 
 
 Q. Who commenced the conversation when they came in ? — A. There 
 was very little conversation. 
 
 Q. What was the subject of it 1 What did they say they came for ?— 
 A. I think that the great point was that I should be sure to telegraph, 
 so that they might have a chance to go about on Sunday and arrange 
 with operators of the two parties as to a settling jjricefor gold. I think 
 Mr. Grould gave me the number of his house in Fifth avenue, so that a 
 message would be sure to reach him, whether the government would 
 give the pledge that it would not offer any gold before November. I 
 think the great point was to make sure that I should not forget to tele- 
 ■ graph early in the day, as time was imiiortant. 
 
 Q. Who managed the conversation on their side, Pisk or Gould ? — 
 A. I do not know; I think Mr. Gould made the remarks about his ad- 
 dress. 
 
 Q. Did either of them upbraid you with your part in that transac- 
 tion f — A. Not the slightest. 
 
 Q. Did either of those gentlemen request to see Mrs. Corbin 1 — A. 
 Neither. 
 
 Q. Did Mrs. Corbin come in while the interview was in progress ? — ^A. 
 No ; she came down with me. She came from my chamber with me to 
 the library. 
 
 Q. Did either of those gentlemen ask any questions of Mrs. Corbin 
 concerning the transaction f — A. I think not. I have no special recol- 
 lection, but I think not. 
 
 Q. Did Mrs. Corbin make any statement to them concerning the 
 transaction? — A. None. 
 
 Q. Were you present all the time that you were in the library ? — A. 
 I think so ; the interview was but a brief one. 
 
 ' Q. Do you recollect anything that Mrs. Corbin said on this occasion 
 touching these transactions ? — A. I do not recollect her saying a word 
 about them. 
 
 Q. How loug do you think they were in your house ? — A. They may 
 have beeh five or ten minutes. 
 
 Q. Did they leave before you and Mrs. Corbin left for Washington ?— 
 A. Yes ; they went right off. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. Was there any agreement made as to the mode by which you were 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 265 
 
 to telegraph, whether hy cipher or otherwise ? — A. Not by cipher. I 
 do not recollect anything as being very peculiar in regard to it. I was 
 to telegraph the assent of the government, if obtained, to Mr. Gould at 
 his house in Mfth avenue, at as early an hour in the day as possible. 
 
 Q. Telegraph what 1 — A. To say whether they could rely on the gov- 
 ernment that there would be an announcement in the newspapers next 
 morning that no more gold would be sold by the government till No- 
 vember. 
 
 Q. And you proposed to send a dispatch of that kind through the tel- 
 egraph without concealment, in that open language ? — A. Of course, 
 because the information was. good for nothing, unless both bulls and 
 bears agreed to fix a certain i3rice for gold. 
 
 Q. A telegraph of that kind would be known to all the world. — A. 
 That was the very object of my journey, to have the matter made pub- 
 lic, so as to enable both sides to settle. 
 
 Q. Your telegxaph was to have been sent on Sunday ? — A. Of course f 
 for unless there was time to fix it that day, it would be impossible to 
 have an agreement between the .bulls and bears before the business 
 hours on Monday. The object was to have it in all the papers by day- 
 light on Monday morning. A private dispatch could do nothing. But 
 if Mr. Boutwell would send his advertisement that he was not going to 
 sell any gold until November, they could go to the leading operators 
 and could agree upon some price at which gold sales should be settled. 
 I thought that the idea did credit to them. Mr. Pisk started the idea 
 first. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 Q. You said it was Gould who proposed it first? — ^A. I am inclined to 
 think it was Mr. Fisk who first made the suggestion of having a settling 
 rate agreed upon between the two parties, though it may have been 
 Mr. Gould. 
 
 By Mr. COBUKN : 
 
 Q. In that interview which you had with Fisk or Gould, or either of 
 them, either on Saturday afternoon or Saturday night, did they pretend 
 to represent anybody's interest other than their own ? — A. O, no ; nei- 
 ther of them. Mr. Fisk sometimes said " we," as though he wanted to 
 ring me in. Mr. Gould never, then, or before, or after, proposed to 
 identify me with him. 
 
 Q. I am talking now about any parties who may have gone into an 
 arrangement of that sort to have the administration influenced in refer- 
 ence to its course of policy. — A. I have no knowledge of any one attempt- 
 ing to influence the administration. 
 
 Q. You were coming to Washington for that purpose ? — A. I merely 
 came to Washington to present the facts. 
 
 Q. Did anybody else besides Fisk and Gould consult with you as to 
 any suggestion that should be made here at Washington ? — A. Oh, no. 
 
 Q. It was then just a matter between you three ? — A. Entirely. 
 
 Q. Neither they nor you represented any board of bankers, or brokers, 
 or moneyed association ? — A. No. 
 
 By Mr. BUECHAED : 
 
 Q. Do you recollect Mr. Charles W. Pollard calling at your house on 
 Saturday morning ? — A. I do not. He may have done so. I received 
 many messages requesting me to go to the Brie ofiice. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect whether he came with Mr. Fisk to your house on 
 Saturday morning ? — ^A. I do not. I doubt whether Mr. Fisk was there 
 
266 _ GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 on Saturday morning. Let me see, (referring to Ms diary.) It merely 
 states that I left for Washington City that night. 
 
 Q. How many inmates were there at that time in your house ?— A. 
 At that time I think there was no one there except my usual family and 
 the servants. 
 
 Q. How many servants were there, and what were their names ? — A. 
 There was Patrick, who attended the door, and Julia, a colored woman, 
 and I forget what other girl was there at that time. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect whether at those times you waited on the door 
 yourself, or that one of those servants did ? — A. Patrick usually waited 
 on the door. If he was out, Julia, the colored woman, opened the door. 
 
 Q. Do you know Patrick's other name °! — A. Patrick Hussey, I think. 
 
 Q. Where does he reside now ? — ^A. With me. 
 
 By Mr. JONBS : 
 
 Q. At that interview, previous to your departure for Washington, 
 how did you consider your relations with Mr. Gould in that business 
 matter 1 Did you consider yourself as still bound ? — A. No, sir ; I had 
 closed up the matter Thursday morning. 
 
 Q. But you had not closed up ? — A. Yes, that was all settled on Thurs- 
 day morning before Mr. Gould left my house, and I so wrote to General 
 Grant. If I had cared to remain in, I should have received from Mr. 
 Gould the $100,000. 
 
 Q. Then what was your object in going to Washington ? — A. I was 
 actuated by a -spirit of kindness to them, and a desire to diminish the 
 losses of the community. 
 
 By the Ghaieman : 
 
 Q. You and Mrs. Corbin went to Washington on Saturday night? — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When did you arrive 1 — A. On the morning of Sunday. 
 
 Q. Did you call upon the President of the United States? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. State the substance succinctly and fully as you recollect of the in- 
 terview between yourself and the President in reference to the business 
 on which you went 1 — A. On that topic the conversation was extremely 
 brief. I merely stated to the President that it was believed that, if the 
 Treasury Department would announce the next morning — and allow it 
 to be telegraphed to-day — that the Treasury would not interfere with the 
 market by the sale of gold beyond the ordinary course of proceedings 
 until the-lst of November, it would be of great benefit both to the bulls 
 and bears in settling up, and that it was, therefore, desired that such 
 course might be taken. The President said at once : " This matter has 
 been concluded, and I cannot open up nor consider the subject ; " and 
 he dropped it directly there without giving any reason. 
 
 Q. Did you say anything more on the subject f — Did you make any 
 response 1 — A. No, sir ; I made no other points than that. 
 
 Q. Did the President say anything further on the topic ? — A. No, he 
 said nothing himself, nor did he afford me an opportunity to talk at all 
 upon the subject. When I got to New York next morning I learned that 
 the sales of government gold were to go on, settlement or no settlement. 
 
 Q. Was anybody present at that interview besides yourself and the 
 President ? — A. His wife, and her father and children, may have been 
 sitting there ; it was in the parlor ; others may also have been there, 
 but I do not recollect any one. 
 
 Q. Did any other person take any part in the conversation on that 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 267 
 
 topic besides yourself and the President ? — A. ISo, sir ; I think not. It 
 was exceedingly short and definite. 
 
 Q. When did you return from B"ew York ? — A. The same Sunday 
 night. 
 
 Q. Did you report by telegraph to Mr. Gould, according to agree- 
 ment ? — A. I did not telegraph to any one. I was to telegraph in case 
 the government would assent to the plan, 
 
 Q. Ton sent no dispatch to Mr. Gould or to Mr. Pisk, or to anybody 
 connected with them ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. On your return to New York, did you visit Mr. Gould or Mr. Fisk 
 on the subject ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see them on the subject 1 — A, No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did they visit yon on the subject ? — ^A. Possibly Mr. Gould came 
 round on Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday ; but I think not. I had 
 taken a violent cold during those two rainy nights, and was seriously ill. 
 They knew, from my failure to telegraph, that the plan had faUed — were 
 too busy to pay idle visits. 
 
 Q, In your interview with the President on Sunday, did you inform 
 him that you had an interest in gold '? — ^A. I said nothing about it. I 
 wasn't proud of it. I had written to him on Thursday, and my wife had 
 written to him on Thursday night, enclosing mine, saying that I had 
 no interest in gold. The President said to me : "I got your letter yes- 
 terday, and you cannot imagine how much relieved Ifelt, after the reports 
 that were made that you were engaged in gold speculations, to know 
 that you were not engaged in that disgraceful speculation." Well, that 
 exonerated me a little further than I had asked for ; but I did not feel 
 called upon to enter into an explanation of a matter personal to myself. 
 
 Q. What response did you make to that remark of the President ? — 
 A. I had nothing to say. 
 
 Q. You did not undeceive the President in his opinion that you were 
 entirely out of the speculation ? — A. No, sir ; I didn't say that I never 
 liad been in it, but that I have no interest. 
 
 Q. You spoke in the present rather than the past tense 1 — A. Yes, I 
 said nothing of the past. 
 
 Q. Have you now stated substantially all that you recollect on that 
 topic in that interview ? — A. Oh, yes ; it was very brief. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Had the President* anything to say in reference to his change of 
 mind as to the public policy in regard to gold 1 — ^A. I never heard him 
 say anything about the contraction or expansion of gold. He is a man 
 who will sit and listen, but rarely expresses opinions. The most I have 
 ever heard him say on that subject was to the celebrated Mr. A. T. 
 Stewart. 
 
 Q. I speak in reference to what he said in that last interview with you 
 in reference to gold ? — A. He did not allude to the price of gold. He 
 merely answered the whole thing by saying that the subject was con- 
 cluded and the policy fixed. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. State what you understood by the word "concluded?" — A. That 
 the Treasury Department had arrived at a decision. 
 
 Q. That they had a policy fixed upon, and he could not open it ? — A. 
 Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. You went there — out of no selfish motive ? — A. Not at all ; I had 
 no money object to achieve. 
 
268 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 By Mr. OoBUEN : 
 
 Q. When you got back to New York, did you have any verbal com- 
 munication with Mr. Pisk in reference to the business ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. And never since ? — A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Did you have any verbal communication with Mr. Gould on your 
 return, or ever since that time ? — A. I believe I had ; and if so, it was 
 not of a business character, but merely an informal account of the trip. 
 He came round to my house, I think, two or three days afterward, and 
 I told him, as he already knew, by not getting a dispatch from me, that 
 an adverse result was reached. I merely related the fact that I had 
 failed, and alluded to the physical sufferings which I had endured during 
 those uncomfortable nights. Beyond the mere casual mention of the 
 results, I recollect nothing else of interest. 
 
 Q. Did you have any written communication with Mr. Fisk concerning 
 that visit? — A. I think not; I recollect nothing. 
 
 Q. Did you have any with Mr. Gould ? — A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Did you, after you returned, send a messenger to Mr. Pisk, convey- 
 ing any information ? — A. I do not recollect doing so ; but it is possible I 
 may have told some one to go down and tell him my object had failed. 
 
 Q. If you sent such a person, do you recollect who it was ? — A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Did you send a message to Mr. Gould giving him information?— 
 A. I think not, but still I may have done so. 
 
 Q. Did you send a dispatch to both or either of them? — A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Have you had any communication with any other person in regard 
 to that visit ? — A. I never had any communication with any other per- 
 son prior to the President's refusal to consider the plan. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. What have been your relations to Pisk and Gould since your visit 
 to Washington ? — A. There never was an unkind word between Mr. Jay 
 Gould and me, and the last time I saw Mr. Pisk his conduct toward me 
 was perfectly polite, respectful, and gentlemanly. 
 
 Q. Do you consider the relations between you and these gentlemen as 
 friendly ? — A. I do not know why they should be otherwise than friendly 
 to me, as I have always acted justly toward them, and treated them 
 ■\\ith kindness and courtesy. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. At the time you wrote the letter to the President that was carried 
 to Washington, Pennsylvania, did you write another letter to General 
 Porter that was sent by the same messenger ? — A. I have answered that 
 by saying that I wrote a letter to General Porter, in which I said I would 
 be obliged to him if he would introduce the bearer to the Chief Magis- 
 trate, so that he should not have any unnecessary delay. 
 
 Q. Was that the substance of the letter ? — A. That was the substance. 
 
 Q. Did you discuss the financial questions in that letter ? — A. No, sir; 
 not at all. 
 
 Q. Did you write in the letter that you had discussed financial mat- 
 ters in your letter to the President ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say that you wrote an article which was sub- 
 • sequently published in the New York Times ; what time was that ? — A. 
 I do not recollect ; it was some time in the summer. 
 
 Q. At whose instance did you write that article ? — A. Mr. Jay Gould. 
 
 Q. Did you or Mr. Jay Gould look the article over after it was writ- 
 ten ? — ^A. I undoubtedly carefully looked over the article after it was 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 269 
 
 I 
 
 written, and possibly may have read it to htm ; its publication was left 
 to him. 
 
 Q. Did you and he consult with each other as to the points that ought 
 to be made in such an article ! — A. Oh, no ; one day after traveling 
 over the subjects treated in the article, Mr. Gould said to me that it 
 would be admirable if I would prepare an article setting forth the views 
 I had just expressed to him. I said very well, I will submit to the labor 
 of writing one, and I did. 
 
 Q. Was that article published ? — ^A. I handed it to him, and he had it 
 published. 
 
 Q. In what paper ? — ^A. I believe it appeared in the New York Times. 
 
 By Mr. Paokbe : 
 Q. Was that before or after you had been asked by Mr. Gould to take 
 part in the purchase of gold ? — A. It must have been a good while before 
 it; I think it must have been in July or August. 
 
 By the Chatbman : 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with General Butterfield ? — A. I am. 
 
 Q. How long have you known him ? — A. Ten or fifteen years. 
 
 Q. Did you meet General Butterfield during the months of August or 
 September last ? — A. I met him occasionally, but not often. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with General Batterfield on the 
 general financial policy of which you have spoken ? — ^A. Not much, if 
 any. I do not know that I can swear that I really talked with him at 
 all on that subject ; still I may have done so. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Mr. Gould in reference to 
 General Butterfield? — ^A. Mr. Gould wished to have Mr. Oatherwood 
 appointed the assistant treasurer, and I frankly told him and Mr. 
 Oatherwood that I could not recommend it. I also very frankly told 
 him that General Butterfield was a friend, and that I should like to see 
 him appointed, and I told General Butterfield that I would recommend 
 him for assistant treasurer ; but after thinking it over, I, at a later day, 
 withdrew my promise, and gave no letter of recommendation. I thought 
 upon reflection that that was an of&ce so exceedingly important that the 
 members of Congress, and the party organizations, and the leading 
 business men should be consulted about it exclusively. Hence, I con- 
 cluded to recommend no man to any important ofiice in New York, and 
 I have recommended no one whatever. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any conversation with Mr. Gould in reference 
 to Butterfleld's management of the sub-treasury ? — ^A. I do not know 
 but that I may have had. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any communication with General Butterfield in 
 reference to the sale of government gold ? — A. I think not, unless in 
 very general terms. 
 
 Q. Were you ever requested by any person to see General Butterfield 
 in regard to the course of gold, or the purchase and sales of gold ? — ^A. 
 Oh, no ; never. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any ofBcer of the government of the United States, 
 or any connection with the families or subordinate or employ^ of any 
 officer of the government, ever having any interest in, or any part in, any 
 transaction in gold in the month of September, either directly or indi- 
 rectly ?— A. No, sir ; in no form, directly or indirectly, through any 
 employ^ or in any other form. 
 
 By Mr. Bueohaed : 
 
 Q. Was any portion of this gold that Mr. Gould was carrying for you 
 
270 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 intended for General Porter ? — ^A. Oh, no ; I have not the slightest idea 
 that General Porter in any form or manner had any interest in any 
 such transaction. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Have you ever exchanged any word with the President of the 
 United States or any of his family, before your interview on the Sunday 
 you have spoken about, as to financial matters or your gold business or 
 stock speculations ? — A. Never ; only, as heretofore stated in my testi- 
 mony, I may at some time have said I owned bonds. 
 
 Q. Do you mean that the committee shall understand that the only 
 influence and the only consideration of your writing this letter to the 
 President when he was at "Washington, Pennsylvania, was to carry the 
 elections and help the country, or did your letter to the President refer 
 to the elections in so many words ? — A. I believed the course I recom- 
 mended would be for the best good of the country, and also for the polit- 
 ical good of the party. 
 
 Q. You say you have not seen that letter which was written, called 
 the " Sis." letter, for four months ; where is it now ? — ^A. It does not 
 exist ; it vras destroyed at once by my wife. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Why ? — A. She was angry because I read it to Mr. Gould. 
 
 Q. Have you since yesterday corrected your memory as to the means 
 by which the President learned of your speculations ? — A. How it came 
 to his knowledge, or who were tattling against me, I have now no 
 knowledge. Whether it was by the anxious operators to head off Mr. 
 Gould on the street or personal spite, I cannot say. There are always 
 men enough to convey such ill news among friends. He may have 
 learned the gossip from the newspapers. 
 
 Q. Did you ever buy any gold or stocks for any person in any' way 
 connected with the government or their households ; if so, when, how 
 much, and what ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Or intend to buy any ? — A. For my intentions I am responsible to 
 Almighty God, and not to a member of Congress. I never did it ; that 
 is enough. 
 
 The committee at this point directed the witness to retire, and, after 
 consultation, ordered the following question to be propounded : 
 
 Have you had any conversation with any officer of the government 
 or with any of his household in reference to the purchase of gold or 
 stocks, or your design of so purchasing ; and if so, what? 
 
 Witness having been again called in, stated that if he had said any- 
 thing disrespectful to the committee, or any member of it, he de'sired to 
 apologize for it ; that he did not wish to say anything indicating a want 
 of entire respect to the dignity and character of the committee. 
 
 The question directed by the committee to be propounded to the wit- 
 ness was then put to him. 
 
 Witness. When my toes are tread upon, and the character of others 
 are at stake, I at once accept the issue. I ask for the reading of the 
 resolution authorizing the committee to make this investigation. 
 
 (The resolution was read by the clerk of the committee.) 
 
 Witness. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully ask what this resolution has 
 to do with the conversation I have mentioned informally ? What has a 
 little intended gift in stocks last summer to do with the fluctuations of 
 the gold market in September ? Am I compelled to develop a proposi- 
 tion in regard to stocks, made in the summer, and which was declined, 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 271 
 
 in an investigation in reference to the gold fluctuations late in Sep- 
 tember ? 
 
 (The chairman stated that the committee considered the question a 
 proper one, and directed its answer.) 
 
 Witness. In relation to gold, I answer no ; in relation to stocks, I 
 appeal to the committee whether I ought to answer the question ? 
 
 (Witness was again directed to answer the question.) 
 
 Q. Then my answer is, as I have already stated, that I purchased on 
 the 24th of July two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in bonds, and 
 paid for them by a note in bank ; after which,, I offered to let Mrs. 
 Grant come in for one half, which was declined. She did not accept 
 the proposition. 
 
 Q. Have you answered the question completely ? — A. I think so. 
 
 By Mr. PACKER : 
 
 Q. At what time did you tell Mrs. Grant that she could have an 
 interest in this purchase, and at what time did she decline ? — A. The 
 conversation was probably Avithin one or two days after the purchase. 
 
 Q. Had she had any conversation with you in reference to it previous 
 to the time of the purchase ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was she in any manner a party to the purchase ? — A. ISo, sir ; 
 she knew nothing of it until it was consummated. 
 
 Q. Then, as I understand, it was simply an offer upon your part to 
 give her a portion of these bonds, and an instant refusal upon her part 
 to accept it ? — ^A, Yes, sir ; that was it. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Did you expect, when you made this proposition to Mrs. Grant, 
 that she would pay her portion of the margin, or did you expect, if she 
 accepted it, she would not pay anything, but that you would simply 
 give her the profits ? — A. The latter, if there were any profits. 
 
 Q. Had you any ftmds of hers in your hands for investment ? — ^A. Ho, 
 sir. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. What was your design in making this tender to the wife of the 
 President '? — A. My desire was to please her. She was my sister-in- 
 law. 
 
 Q. Do you say on oath that no other design was in your mind ? — A. I 
 do. This was on the 24th of July, remember. 
 
 Q. It had no reference to any influence on the government, or ex- 
 pected to be exerted in reference to your speculations ? — A. No, sir ; I 
 had no speculations then. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge that the President was aware of your 
 proposition to Mrs. Grant 1 — A. I have not. I thiak he was not. 
 
 Q. You stated that you lost upon the stocks you bought ; did any- 
 body share that loss ? — A. No one was iaterested but my wife with me. 
 The loss was a little over nineteen thousand doUars on a purchase of 
 two hundred and fifty thousand. 
 
 Q. Did you not deceive the President in respect to your being in gold 
 speculations ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was not your letter written with a view, or intent, to deceive him 
 in that regard? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was not the letter intended to assure him that you were out of 
 these speculations when you had so recently been in them ? — A. My in- 
 tention was to assure him that I was out, and I told him the truth. 
 
 Q. But you did not tell him the whole truth, as I understand ? — 
 
272 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION, 
 
 A. Toil may understand that I told him the whole truth of what I was 
 talking about. 
 
 Q. How did these losses occur on the bonds ? — A. By the fall of 
 prices. 
 
 Q. Did bonds decline with the decline of gold ? — A. I am not sure. 
 
 Q. If gold advanced, would not the currency price of bonds advance ?— 
 A. I do not know that I could give an intelligent answer that would 
 be satisfactory to myself. 
 
 Q. Was not your understanding that Mr. Gould's pro'p.osition to ad- 
 vance gold primarily would at the same time advance the currency price 
 of these bonds you were carrying ? — ^A. I am not sure how that would 
 be. The price of gold is now 20. The bonds of 1867 which I purchased 
 are now, I think, at 114. I am not sure of the exact price. When gold 
 was 140, bonds were not 134, which is $20 higher than 114, the present 
 Ijrice. I think there has been sometimes quite a contrast in the move- 
 ments of gold and bonds. Not being a dealer I cannot point out the 
 true connection between the two. 
 
 Q. Have you ever paid any money, or given any present, directly or 
 indirectly, to any one, either as profits of gold speculations or in consid- 
 eration of stock sales ? — A. If ever. 
 
 Q. At the time Mr. Gould offered half a million of gold at the price 
 he paid for it, how much was the profit up to that time? — ^A. I don't 
 know. I suppose the price he charged me was the market price at that 
 time. An examination of the market prices will show. 
 
 Q. You have no recollection as to the fact ? — ^A. I have not. 1 sup- 
 posed it to be the same. 
 
 Q. Who is the Simson, or Limson, whose name is signed to the memo- 
 randum you gave yesterday ? — A, I do not know ; I never was in Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Co.'s office. 
 
 By Mr. Packer : 
 
 Q. Were you to have the gold from this firm at the prices they bought 
 it for, or for the market price the day it was offered to you ? — A. The 
 firm I never saw or had any acquaintance with. Mr. Gould offered to 
 let me have gold at what he called cost price, and sent that paper which 
 I have submitted here in fulfillment of his promise, without impeaching 
 the truth of the paper. 
 
 Q. Did he state when he had purchased ? — ^A. He did not say. The 
 date of the transaction with me was September 2. 
 
 Q. Then it would be the market price of that day, would it not ? — ^A. 
 I was to have gold at 132 and 133f ; that is the fact. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Do you know whether Mrs. Oorbin ever informed the President or 
 his wife of the interest you had given her in bonds or in gold ? — ^A. I 
 presume not. I do not know it if she did. 
 
 By Mr. Oox : 
 
 Q. Have you stated fully the amount of your interest in government 
 bonds at the time of the panic, or shortly preceding the panic ?— A. 1 
 have excepted those I hold regularly as a permanent investment, and I 
 had sold a few bonds out of this two hundred and fifty thousand. I 
 should think I had probably two hundred thousand, or a little more, at 
 the time of the panic. 
 
 Q. Have you any litigation in New York in reference to this busi- 
 ness ? — A. No, sk ; I never had a law suit in my life. 
 - Q. To whom did you give the article for the newspaper which yon 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 273 
 
 \vrote ? ^A. I did not give it to any one ; I handed an article to Mr, 
 
 Gonld, and he selected the paper. It was wholly confidential. I did 
 not wish it to have any influence other than the merits of the article 
 entitled it to ; it was to be strictly anonymous. 
 
 Q. Did you ever state to any one that Fisk or Gould had never been 
 in your house since the President was there, about the time of the Peace 
 Jubilee in Boston ; did you state that to a reporter? — ^A. I stated dis- 
 tinctly to a reporter, as I have said to this committee, that Mr. Fisk 
 was never in my house prior to September 24. I did not state that m 
 regard to Mr. Gould. I do not think the papers ever accused me of say 
 ing that of both gentlemen. 
 
 Q. Have you ever said to any one that you were in no way connected 
 with the operations of Gould and Fisk ia gold or otherwise ? — ^A. Possi- 
 bly I may, as, in fact, I was not. My wife had a specified interest. If 
 you come to technicalities I really had none ; not a dollar. 
 
 By Mr. BUBCHAED : 
 Q. Tou say you wrote to General Porter ; did you receive any letter 
 from him? — A. Fo; I got no reply. I heard afterward, and it was a 
 good while after, that the answer the President gave to the bearer of my 
 letter was " No answer." 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Did you ever teU the President himself that you were speculating 
 in stocks or gold ? — ^A. No; I did not. I felt that I had a right to buy 
 stocks or bonds the same as any other gentleman ; at the same time it 
 is but just to myself to say that I am not likely to thrust my affairs upon 
 the attention of other people. 
 
 Q. Did you in the conversation with the President you have apoken 
 of, on Sunday, refer to the letter you had written to the President which 
 was carried by Mr. Chapin ? — A. I believe I have told you the few brief 
 words that passed, and that the whole matter was closed. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. Do you know Doctor Pollard ? — A. I have seen him. 
 
 Q. When did you see Mm ; was it on the 23d of September, or about 
 that time ? — I do not know when I last saw him. 
 
 Q. Did you ever call on him at the Brie Eailroad building ? — ^A. I think 
 not ; I do not recollect of any such call. 
 
 Q. Do you remember any interview you ever had with him ; if so, 
 what? — ^A. I think he was the man who came and wanted a letter of in- 
 troduction to Governor Fish, stating that Mr. Fisk wished to get a brass 
 band, or something like that, from Belgium. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with him about this gold business, 
 or your speculations ? — ^A. I never have to my recollection. He is a 
 clerk in the Erie building, for Mr. Fisk, I beUeve. 
 
 Q. You never told him, at an interview in the Erie building, " How 
 does Mr, Fisk bear his losses ; it is terrible for us;" did you ? — ^A. That 
 is the Sun's story. No. 
 
 Q, Tou never made such a remark as that to him ? — A. My dear sir, 
 I never recollect saying one word to him of any kind whatsoever about 
 gold. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see anybody, after your return from Washington, 
 who was connected with this business ; anybody representing Fisk or 
 Gould ?— A. Not to my recollection. 
 
 Q. Any lawyers or agents ? — A. I had a talk with my own lawyer. 
 H. Eep. 31 ^18 
 
274 GOLD JPANIC INVBSWGi.'Ti<)!V. 
 
 'Q. I mean reipreseating Fisk or Gould, afbeSr yout i&bnvn from Wash- 
 uigton? — A. No. 
 
 By Mr. JoNJBS : 
 Q. Do you think there is any matter unsettled between you and Fisk 
 and Gould ! — ^A. I would refer you for an answer to his lawyer amd 
 mine. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. Did yoii have any relations or commutiications about this gold 
 business with General Butterfteld or any of his subordinates during the 
 pendency of this movement ? — A. 0, no ; none at all. 
 
 Q. You had no intimation by telegraph from Washington, or any other 
 place, in reference to the sale of gold by the Secretary of the Treasury?— 
 A. Never, either directly or indirectly. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Are we to understand you to say that you had no interview with 
 General Butterfteld during this gold panic or crisis in New York from 
 the time gold began to go up ? — A. If by the word interview you mean 
 to ask whether I ever saw him, I should say I presume I did see him, 
 for we were in the habit of meeting pretty often beifore his appointment 
 and occasionally afterward. I presume I was not at his house during 
 August and September. He may have been at mbie upon a visit, but 
 nothing ever occurred in reference to any matter 'of business that I re- 
 member. We have had no transaction in gold, nor had any other busi- 
 ness connections together since the time he came into his treasury office. 
 
 Q. You never asked him, and he never gave .you, what was the policy 
 of the government? — A. I do not think he had anything to give. I do 
 not tSink Mr. Bbutwell ever trusted him or any one else ; at any rate, 
 I answer the question in the negative. 
 
 Q. Your relations with the President are friendly now, are they ?— 
 A. Entirely so. 
 
 With the permission of the committee, I desire to make one general 
 statement. I wish here to aver that I have formed no plans to cause 
 fluctuations in the gold market, and no man, "so far as I know, ever at- 
 tempted to execute any plans derived from me to cause such fluctu- 
 ations, with or without any assistance of mine. I have never put up a 
 dollar of money or credit for any such purpose. I have never put up 
 any credits or stocks with any view to cause the price of gold to fluctu- 
 ate, nor to create any revulsion in the market. I have never given in- 
 formation, and have never obtained information, of a character that 
 would benefit any attempt to create any fluctuation. No officer ever 
 furnished me with any such informa/tion, and I have never sought any 
 such information. I wish to state these facts in this general way. I 
 think it is due to the officers of the government that I should make this 
 statement, and also that I should say that I have tiever obtained any 
 information from any subordinate other than from'thoise high in author- 
 ity. I wish to say, also, that I firmly believe -that these fluctuations 
 were produced by these extraordinary specuMiotis in Wall street, and 
 that it was a spasm which occurred very suddenly, as I 'believe, with- 
 <out any plan about it of more than a few hours' duration. 
 
 BylMr. Cox: 
 Q. Do I understand that you had no design in your conver- 
 sation and editorials, in .your letters written to the President, in your 
 visit to Washington, of a selfish character; that you had no design 
 
GOiD FAXaC INVESTIGATION. ^Ih 
 
 to create a fluctuation in gold for the benefit of yourself and yonr 
 friends? — A. Entire .exemption from seMsliness I cannot claim. J 
 have not quite attained perfection, though I struggle for it. I am wilt 
 ing to admit that I have something of human selfishness, but so far as 
 creating fluctuations is concerned I certainly have no desire to accom- 
 plish that purpose. I did desire to see gold at 140, and to see it held 
 there until the crops could be taken to market and good prices obtained. 
 I did not desire any fluctuation or aigitation in the money market. 
 
 Washington, Jcmuary 28, 1870. 
 
 CiXiBB C. NoRVBLL sworn and examined. 
 By the ChAibJiIAN : 
 
 Question. State your place of residence and occupation. — ^Answer. My 
 place of business is the Kew York Times ofBce. I am one of the editors 
 of the Times ; more particularly the financial editor. 
 
 Q. Were you acting as financial editor of the New York Times during 
 the months of July and August last ?— A. Yes, sir j ever since the for- 
 mation of the paper. 
 
 Q. Was there an editorial on finaaicial subjects presented to you for 
 insertion in the 'Se.w York Times some time in the months of July or 
 August by Jay Gould ? — A. No, sir; not by Mr. Gould, nor by anybody 
 from Mr. Gould. Mr, Bigelow took charge of the editorial department 
 of the Times about the 1st of August. About the 5th of the month he had 
 an interview with the President; probably at Mr. Corbin's house. On 
 the 6th appeared an editorial wholly irrespective of any matter of 
 gold. Mr. Bigelow ^requested me to furnish him the figures to which 
 reference had been made in his interview with the President. I wrote 
 out a general article, which was published on the Tth- This article of 
 the 6tb, which had nothing to do Wfith the gold speculations, seems to 
 have been in some way confounded with the article of the 25th. 
 
 Q. What article was that ?^A, That was what we call in oiir office 
 an "outside article." Articles come to us well written on the rtopics of 
 the day, and we adopt them as our own. How this article reached the 
 office lonly know from hearsay. As to whether Mr. Gould, Mr. Cor- 
 bin, or who sent it, I have no knowledge. I did not see the manu- 
 script for some time after, and not until this controversy arose. That 
 article was represented to have come from some particular friend of the 
 President. I have every reason to believe that it was put in type just 
 as it was written, and double-leaded, to be published as an editorial 
 leader. I had gone home to Staten Island, and my assistant in the 
 money department told Mr. Bigelow he had better leave it over until he 
 could see me ; that, whether it was writtSn in the interest of the ad- 
 ministration or not, it certainly seemed to compromise the administra- 
 tion, and utterly to stultify our own position inregardto.gold ; especially 
 the last paragraph, which was most illogical, and seemed to be a plau- 
 sible plea for the highest possible gold that the market could be brought 
 up to. I will do Mr. Bigelow the justice to say that he could not have 
 believed that it came from any inspired source. General Grant had 
 left the city on the 20th. This came to me about the 23d. It was to 
 have appeared on the morning of the 24th ; and when the suggestion 
 was made to Mr. Bigelow that it was in my department, as he had just 
 come into the ofQce, and had not watched our course on this subject, it 
 was proper that he should leave it over, which he did, and which I am 
 
276 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 sure he would not have done if he had believed that General Grant had , 
 seen it before it came into the office. I have no doubt that it was sent 
 under false pretences, and I do not think Mr. Bigelow had any doubt, 
 after the occurrence of September, that it was intended to be imposed 
 upon us as a semi-official expression by the President. 
 
 Q. Have you the editorial as first set up in your office V — A. I have; 
 and I also have the manuscript with me. When Mr. Bigelow left 
 our office a few days before the row occurred in September, I thought 
 I would endeavor to get the facts before the public. It was a delicate 
 business for the Times to publish a full statement of the facts, and I got 
 the Commercial Advertiser to publish the interview with Grant on the 
 5th of August, the results of which appeared in our paper of the Cth, in 
 the leader, which was looked upon as a manifestation of the views of the 
 President on the payment of the debt, and the reduction of the expenses. 
 On the 14th of October some of our neighbors still misrepresented us 
 as to our responsibility for the gold panic. In the meantime there came 
 out a statement from Mr. Gould to the reporter of the Sun that the ar- 
 ticle of the 25th had been reversed in its position by some editor in the 
 office ; that it was not published as set up ; that the purpose was to 
 "bull" gold, and that some person in the ofllce had interla,rded two or 
 three lines so as to give it a different application, and had left out the 
 closing paragraph altogether. In this article in the Commercial Adver- 
 tiser the precise changes which were made in the original article appeared. 
 Mr. Bigelow handed me the article and told me to do with it as I liked. 
 I told him the honest argument of the article, if it meant anything, 
 meant that the President and Secretary did not mean to sell gold and 
 lock up currency in the treasury; that they would sell no more gold 
 than they could disburse currency for, and that further, if bonds should 
 be very favorable, the Secretary had the right to buy bonds for the sink- 
 ing fund directly with gold. This fact is inserted in the body of the arti- 
 cle, that he might perhaps exchange gold for 5-20 bonds direct. There 
 is where Mr. Gould said the argument had been mutilated and reversed. 
 I did it for two purposes. In the first place, I thought if the argument 
 meant anything it meant that the President and Secretary did not intend 
 to lock up currency during the busy season; and in the second place, not 
 knowing where the article came from, yet from whatever source it orig- 
 inated, I suspected there might be from the statements of the last para- ' 
 graph a sinister purpose to "bulP'gold, sothedouble lead was taken out 
 of the article, and the tail of the article (which you will find here) stricken 
 off and the articleas it appears published on the 25th. The original arti- 
 cle was headed "Grant's financial policy." Mr. Bigelow, after we had 
 changed it to conform to our own views, and to what we believed woul d be 
 of service to the administration, said : " Suppose you head it, as Boutwell 
 has been brought into it, ' Thjp financial policy of the administration.' " 
 That heading was given, and it so appeared in the paper the next day. 
 I now furnish to the committee the article as it was originally set up, 
 and as it was actually published, showing what changes were made. 
 
 Article as set up from manuscript, double ArUole as reduced and otherwise changed, as 
 leaded. in italics, and publislied in ordinary leaded 
 
 type. 
 
 grant's FINANCIAI. POUCY. PtNANCIAI, POLICY OF THE ADMINISTRA- 
 
 TION. 
 
 Thus far in his administration of the Thus far in his administration of the 
 
 government President Grant has not set government President Grant has not set 
 
 forth, in an official form, the policy by forth, in an official form, the policy by 
 
 which he is governed when acting upon ■which he is governed when acting upon 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATIOlir, 
 
 277 
 
 fiscal affairs. This utterance cannot reas- 
 onably be expected prior to the meeting of 
 Congress in December next. In his annual 
 message, and in the report of the Secretary 
 of the Treasury, we may expect to see a 
 clear and full development of the policy 
 of the President; and in the subsequent 
 acts of Congress that policy will be aided, 
 strengthened, and, perhaps, modified. 
 
 In the mean time the acts of the Adminis- 
 tration enable us to form decided views of 
 its policy and intentions. Mrst. The Pres- 
 ident evidently intends to pay off the "five- 
 twenties" as rapidly as he may in gold. Sec- 
 ondly. In order to be able to make this pay- 
 ment 800»,thePresident is laboring to large- 
 ly appreciate the credit of the government; 
 he is struggling to lift its securities into 
 the high position occupied by those of 
 Great Britain and France. When this end 
 is measurably attained, the President will 
 then be able to negotiate a loan at par, in 
 gold, at 4 or 4^ per oeut., with the proceeds 
 of which to pay off twelve or fifteen hun- 
 dred miUious of the public debt; thus, by 
 a mere saving in the rate of interest, lessen- 
 ing our annual payments of interest, in 
 fold, 125,000,000 or $30,000,000. Thirdly. 
 'o enable him to build up the government 
 credit and lessen the interest upon the pub- 
 lic debt, the President has sedulously and 
 with success labored to collect the revenues 
 without loss or waste, and with less ex- 
 pense ; also, to introduce a rigid economy 
 into every branch of the public service. 
 Great savings have been realized in the 
 Military and Treasury branches ; creditar- 
 ble savings in the State and Interior De- 
 partments have been effected, and consid- 
 erable savings are hoped for from the Navy 
 and Post Oflice. 
 
 So far as the current movements of the 
 Treasury are concerned, until the crops 
 are moved, it is not likely Treasury gold 
 will be sold. The entire surplus of cur- 
 rency in the Treasury, on the contrary, 
 will be employed in the purchase of bonds 
 as heretofore, that money may be abun- 
 dant and cheap at the time crops are to be 
 paid for and moved by transporters to mar- 
 ket. At a time of the year so critical to 
 producers, the President will not withdraw 
 currency from the channels of trade and 
 commerce ; he will not send gold into the 
 market and sell it for currency to lock up 
 in the Treasury vaults. Such a procedure 
 would reduce the value of our entire pro- 
 ducts ; to buy and lock up our currency 
 now, and thus make money scarce and dear, 
 would distress all of the producers of the 
 country, and benefit nobody but usurers 
 and speculators. This error wiU not be 
 committed. No administration can desire 
 a money panic, and thereby low prices for 
 produce, upon the eve of the fall elections. 
 
 The policy vof the President is, then, as 
 revealed by his acts, to appreciate the 
 values of all government securities pre- 
 paratory to the making of an effort to les- 
 sen the rates of interest on the public debt; 
 
 fiscal affairs. This utterance cannot reas- 
 onably be expected prior to the meeting of 
 Congress in December next. In his annual 
 message, and in the report of the Secretary 
 of the Treasury, we may expect to see a 
 clear and full development of the policy of 
 the President ; and in the subsequent acts 
 of Congress that policy will be aided, 
 strengthened, and, perhaps, modified. 
 
 In the mean time the acts of the Admin- 
 istration enable us to form decided views 
 of its policy and intentions. Mrst. The 
 President evidently intends to pay off the 
 " five-twenties " as rapidly as he may in 
 gold. Secondly, In order to be able to make 
 this payment soon, the President is labor- 
 ing to largely appreciate the credit of the 
 government; he is struggling to lift its 
 securities to the level of the securities ol 
 the wealthiest European States. When 
 this end is measurably attained, the Presi- 
 dent will be able to negotiate a loan at 
 par, in gold, at 4 or 4^ per cent., with the 
 proceeds of which to pay off twelve or fif- 
 teen hundred millions of the public debt ; 
 thus, by a mere saving in the rate of inter- 
 est, lessening our annual payments of in- 
 terest, in gold, $25,000,000 or $30,000,000. 
 Thirdly. To enable him to build up the gov- 
 ernment credit and lessen the interest upon 
 the public debt, the President has sedu- 
 lously and with success labored to collect 
 the revenues without loss or waste, and 
 with less expense ; also to introduce a rigid 
 economy into every branch of the public 
 service. Great savings have been realized 
 in the Military and Treasury branches; 
 creditable savings in the State andlnterior 
 Departments have been effected, and con- 
 siderable savings are hoped for from the 
 Navy and Post Office. 
 
 So far as the current movements of the 
 Treasury are concerned, until the crops are 
 moved, it is not likely Treasury gold will 
 be sold for currency to be locked up. The 
 entire smrplus of currency in the Treasury, 
 on the contrary, will be employed in tlie 
 purchase of bonds as heretofore, that money 
 may be abundant and cheap, at the time 
 crops are to be paid for and moved by 
 transporters to market. And it may he that 
 further purchases of bonds will be made di- 
 rectly with gold. At a time of the year so 
 critical to producers, the President wUl not 
 withdraw currency from the channels of 
 trade and commerce ; he will not send gold 
 into the market and sell it for currency to 
 lock up in the Treasury vaults. Such a 
 procedure would reduce the value of our 
 entire products ; to buy andlock up our cur- 
 rency now, and thus make money scarce 
 and dear, would distress all of the pro- 
 ducers of the country, and benefit nobody 
 but usurers and speculators. This error 
 wiQ not be committed. No administra- 
 tion can desire a money panic, and, as a 
 consequence, low prices for produce, upoa 
 the, eve of the fall elections. 
 
 The policy of the President is, then, as 
 revealed by his acts, to appreciate the val- 
 
278 
 
 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 ues of all government securities prepaxa- 
 tory to the making of an effort to lessen 
 the rates of interest on the public debt ; to 
 honestly collect the revenues ; to reduce 
 expenditures. This poUey, if suocessfnl, 
 will enable the administration to place 
 our finances upon a solid foundation, ami 
 to reduce tile taxes. 
 
 Such is the financial policy of the Presi- 
 dent, as developed by his acts. It is at 
 once simple and efficient. By strengthen- 
 ing our credit we carry our bonds to par in 
 gold ; by becoming able to obtain money 
 at 4 or 4J per cent, we can save 1^ or 2 per 
 cent, per year upon our whole debt. Con- 
 tests between government and bondhold- 
 ers are likely to lessen the value of bonds 
 and destroy our hope of reducing the rate 
 of interest from 6 to 4 per cent, per annum. 
 The policy of the President is wisest and 
 best. It is honest, simple, and statesman- 
 like. It will succeed if adhered to and 
 vigorously sustained. 
 
 to honestly collect the revenues; to re- 
 duce expenditures. This policy, if suc- 
 cessful, wiU enable the administration to 
 place our finances upon a solid foundation, 
 and, to reduce the tcciles. 
 
 Such is the financial policy of the Presi- 
 dent, as developed by his acts. It is at 
 once simple and efficient. By strengthen- 
 ing our credit we carry our bonds to par 
 in gold ; by becoming able to obtain money 
 at 4 or 4| per cent., we can save IJ or 2 
 per cent, per year upon our whole debt. 
 Contests between government and bond- 
 holders are likely to lessen the value of 
 bonds and destroy our hope of reducing 
 the rate of interest from 6 to 4 per cent, 
 per annum. The policy of the President 
 is wisest and best. It is honest, simple, 
 and statesmanlike. It will succeed if ad- 
 hered to and vigorously maintained. 
 
 [It may be objected, that the disburse- 
 ment of currency to the largest convenient 
 extent, and the retention in the Treasury 
 of unneeded gold, will cause gold to rise 
 again to 135 or 140. Suppose it should 
 thus result. This would secure large ship- 
 ments of breadstnffs, provisions, butter, 
 cheese, petroleum, cotton, tobacco, &c., at 
 increased prices ; and, to the amount snip- 
 ped, would save to our people an equal 
 value of gold. Hence, as gold accumula- 
 ted, the less would be the premium upon 
 it ; high prices for gold before the sale of our 
 products would cause lower prices of gold 
 after the sale of exports. It is better for 
 our country to ship prodtice to pay for our 
 imports than gold or bonds. The objection 
 to the retention of gold in the Treasury, 
 until our productions are marketed, is un- 
 sound ; for the retention of gold will make 
 both gold and the productions dearer at 
 the time of the sale of the productions ; if 
 gold is not needed for shipment, the pre- 
 mium on it would fall. Large exports of 
 produc^ stimulated by the temporary high 
 price of gold, would soon cause gold to 
 bear a lower price. Hence, a high price 
 for gold, during the next three months, 
 would be productive of great good to ex- 
 porters of produce. The fall of gold, at 
 this time", to twenty-five per cent, would 
 bring rniu upon the agricultural, mechan- 
 ical, and manufacturing classes ; injury to 
 these would entail injury upon the mer- 
 chants and upon laborers. If gold is made 
 cheap it will be exported; if too dear to 
 export, then produce will be shipped in lieu 
 of it. Hence, government will not so act 
 as to lessen the value of this year's abun- 
 dant crop, but will labor to increase its 
 value and promote its exportation to for- 
 eign countries.] 
 
 Q. Do you know who presented this article to your ofBce 1 — A. Only 
 from hearsay. I have reason to believe, though I cannot tell you pre- 
 cisely how I got the information, that before the grand jury Mr. Gould 
 repeated what appeared in the Sun, and in one or two other papers, at 
 the time, that Mr. James McHenry, of London, who was intimately 
 acquainted with Mr..Bigelow, brought the article as from Mr. Corbin. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 279 
 
 Now, the President had oiily left town on the 20th of August. This was 
 brought on the 23d, and the intention, I have no doubt, was that it 
 should appear just as much semi-ofacially as the other article of the 6th 
 of August, which Mr. Bigelow himself wrote after his interview with the 
 President. 
 
 Q. Was an editorial published in the New York Times on the 24th of 
 September on the gold movement? — A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. What was the drift of the article f — ^A. I have it here. Mr. Bige- 
 low said to me, "Tou write an editorial about the excitement ; you have 
 been in the midst of it ; write it up." There had been two days of the 
 excitement ; this was before the great panic. On one of these days there 
 had been great fluctuation in stocks. I wrote this article, and gave strong 
 points of rumors that were current tha,t Fisk had gone into the gold- 
 room and wagered any part of $50,000 that gold would go above 145; 
 this was the day before the panic, I said in that article : 
 
 [From the Ne'w York Times, September 24.J 
 THE EXCITEMENT IN WALL 8TKBET. 
 
 The second sensation related to tlie speculation and pratical comer in gjold. And here 
 ahout 3 o'clock on Wednesday afternoon appeared on the scene the inevitable and irre- 
 pressible Fisk, jr. His presence in the gold-room was signalized by the rapid rise in 
 gold from 137J to 141^ per cent., and by the offer of wagers for any part of ^50,000 that 
 the price would reach 145 per cent. The other engineers of the movement were not 
 idle, nor had they been through the earlier part of the day. They not only hilled goli 
 with a will, but talked freely of the warrant which they had from Washington that 
 the government would not interfere with them. The highest official in the land was 
 quoted as being with them, and he, of course, controls the action of the Secretary of the 
 Treasury and the New York assistant treasurer. Although this mnsthave been known 
 to be false, there Tvere abundant rumors and suspicions insidiously spread around the 
 street to create the belief or fear with good men that the administration would not 
 interpose by further sales of gold from the Treasury, or extra purchases of United 
 States 5-20s in exchange for gold. Among these rumors was one that the Gould-Fisk 
 party were about to secure the services and influence of Mr. Corbin, (the brother-in- 
 law oif the President,) as president of'the Tenth National Bank, which they have 
 recently purchased, in connection with Messrs. Tweed and Sweeney. The considera- 
 tion was to be $35,000 per annum, equal to President Grant's, own salary. This was 
 too monstrous for serious belief, We have reason to know it is wholly out of the 
 chapter of probabilities with Mr. Corbin himself. 
 
 Yesterday the Central and Hudson affair was comparatively quiet, but the gold sensa- 
 tion was renewed with greatly increased intensity. The Gould-Fisk brokers bid the 
 price up to 144 per cent, Tl^e party, without demapding their gold, compelled the 
 sellers and borrowers who had contracts with them to place five or seven per cpnt. 
 additional advance in price in their own hands, or else settle at the price of the day. 
 
 This scene may be amusing enough to our readers, as a Wall street fight between hull 
 and hear, but it has a more serious aspect. The business of the Produce Exchange, and 
 the conduct of the ordinary foreign exchanges of the market, are paralyzed by this 
 heavy rise and cor»!<r in gold, through a sheer gamiling opfration. The government is 
 scandalized by false rumors of complicity ; the public credit damaged by the fall in the 
 funds, and the general trade of the country agitated and unduly alarmed by a panic in 
 money coincident with, if not directly superinduce* by, the lock-up in gold. When or 
 where the trouble is to end we have no present means of telling. 
 
 I have met Mr. Corbin himself, to-day, for the first time. When this 
 monstrous story began to get about, that they meant to debauch the 
 administration of General Grant, I went first to Mr. Seligman, a director, 
 and a republican director, in the Tenth National Bank, which it was 
 said the Gould party had bought up and intended to make Mr. Corbin 
 president. I told him that the thing must stop ; that it was monstrous. 
 Mr. Seligman, while denying that such a thing had taken place, his 
 manner suggested that such a thing had at least beeu suggested. I 
 then went to an official of the government, Mr. Calendar, and stated to 
 him what 1 had heard, saying that if there was any truth in it, it must 
 
280 GOI;D PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 be stopped ; tbat it was a great outrage ; that it would scandalize the 
 administration ; that it was his duty as an examiner of national banks 
 to set the thing right at Washington. 
 
 Q. What day was that? — A. I think it was the day before the panic. 
 He was, I saw, a good deal excited. He said, '' I can tell you, Mr. Cor- 
 bin is not going to have that position. It is not in the chapter of pro- 
 babilities that he is going to get it." 
 
 Q. Was this article of the 24th, so fa.r as you know, telegraphed to 
 Washington? — A. I have heard that it was. 
 
 Q. Did you telegraph? — A. I did not. I have often blamed myself 
 for not telegraphing the. night before; but as further explanatory of the 
 feeling I had on the subject, I will state that after writing this article, 
 never having met Mr. Boutwell personally, I sat down late at night 
 and wrote a letter to Mr. Crounse (Times correspondent) asking him to 
 say to Mr. Boutwell that if he would come to IJfew York and hear what 
 was said about the streets in regard to high oflcials at Washington, ho 
 would see it was necessary for the administration to do something. 
 
 Q. Are you able to state, from your own knowledge, that parties 
 concerned in bulling gold during these days did freely say that they 
 were backed up by persons high in authority? — A. I can only say that, 
 professionally, I hear in my intercourse a thousand things on the street, 
 sometimes a dozen times in an hour, without being able to place the 
 responsibility of the statement on any particular person. I can only 
 say, to the best of my knowledge, that I believe that what I stated in this 
 article is true: that they said they had the sub-treasury, and that Gen- 
 eral Grant would not permit Boutwell to sell gold. They "did not pre- 
 tend they had bought up Boutwell. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge that any oflcer of the government had 
 any part or interest, direct or indirect, in the gold movement of Septem- 
 last? — :A. Not from my own knowledge. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. Do you know General Butterfield ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any connection he has had with the gold move- 
 ment? — A. Not until afterward, when the general talked freely with 
 me, denying his complicity in any gold operations. He gave me very 
 frankly a history of his dealings with Jay Gould. 
 
 Q. Do you know w;ho it was who wrote the long explanatory article 
 of Mr. Butterfleld's conduct, which appeared some time afterward in the 
 New York Times? — ^A. It was one of the reporters. I forget who wrote 
 it. It was what we call "an outside article." It was regarded by many 
 as coming from General Butterfield himself. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether it came from him? — ^A. I did not inquire 
 into that. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything ftbout any of the facts stated in that arti- 
 cle? — A. Not at all. I think General Butterfleld's friends rather regret- 
 ted that they had stirred the thing up. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. You say that General Butterfield told you of his relations with 
 Jay Gould. What, in brief, did he tell you they were ? — A. That he 
 had had transactions with them up the river. He assured me that he 
 did not know anything about their putting gold down to him. Accord- 
 ing to his story, Mr. Lane went to them and claimed they had put down 
 a million of gold for him ; that he was wholly ignorant of it ; that he 
 did not know until this man Lane came to him about it, what he was in 
 for, or what it was about. 
 
aOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 281 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. Please state what, in your opinion, would be proper federal legis- 
 lation with a Tiew, if possible, to prevent these fluctuations and panics 
 in the gold market? — A. I do not know that my opinion would be of 
 any value. I have always considered that what is called the gold- 
 room in New York should have ceased with the restoration of peace 
 in 1865. I think it has been a great calamity, and that it would be a 
 misfortune if what is called the Gold Exchange Bank should be 
 revived. This Gold Exchange Bank, with its clearing-house, furnishes 
 machinery which enables a man with $2,000 to gamble in gold to the 
 extent of $100,000, while if he had to pay $5,000, or in money, he could 
 not get his check certified for that amount. This Gold Exchange Bank 
 gives him a false credit. He may transact business to the extent of 
 $100,000, and if at the close of the day there is a balance of $1,000 
 against him, he pays that. If at the end of the next day there is 
 another $1,000 against him, he pays that and is at the end of his rope. 
 But as long as these $2,000 hold out he has the same credit that Brown 
 Brothers have. 
 
 Q. You think it gives great facility for gambling in gold? — A. If that 
 should be abolished,, and every national and State banking institution 
 should be prohibited from being used as a place for clearing and settling 
 gold, I think the effect would be good. 
 
 Q. How would you have gold cleared? — A. As it is done now. When 
 a man buys in the gold-room $10,000 of gold, he wiU give his check for 
 $12,000 of currency. 
 
 Q. Would you extend your proposition to the general bank clearing- 
 house? — A. No, sir. The associated bank clearing-house is simply for 
 settling checks between themselves. 
 
 Q. Would you have the gold-room abolished entirely? — ^A. I would 
 have the clearing-house for gold abolished. 
 
 By the Chaikman : 
 
 Q. Could the Gold Exchange clearing system continue to exist if a 
 return to specie payment should take place ? — ^A. Of course not. 
 
 By Mr. CoBTJEN: 
 Q. How much specie is there to resume specie payment on ? — A. I do 
 not know. The only tangible amount is one hundred and five or one 
 hundred and ten millions in the Treasury, and about fifty of that is owned 
 by the public in the shape of certificates. , 
 
 Washington, D. C, Jmuary 28, 1870. 
 Henky M. Smith sworn and examined. ■ 
 
 By the Ghaieman: 
 
 Question. State your place of residence, business, and occupation. — 
 Answer. I reside in New York; my place of business is 11 Broad street; 
 I am a stock, gold, and commission broker. 
 
 Q. Connected with what firm? — A. The firm of Smith, Gould, Martin 
 & Co. 
 
 Q. Were you engaged in transactions in gold and stocks during the 
 months of August and September last? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What part of the duties of the firm do you usually perform? — A. 
 Outside, I manage the whole business of the firm; I give orders and do 
 everything. In matters in the office, I do not do anything. 
 
282 QOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. In the part of the business you perform were reports of the trans- 
 actions made to you ordinarily? — A. That was just as I ordered; if I 
 ordered them to be made to me individually, they were made to me; I 
 kept them as long as I wanted them, and then turned them in to the 
 firm; otherwise they were made directly to the firm. 
 
 Q. State how the accounts of the firm are kept; whether you have 
 books and keep full accounts of your transactions ordinarily? — ^A. 
 yes; we have books. 
 
 Q. Which member of the firm has the general charge of the books?— 
 A. I do not know that any one has especial charge. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with the way the accounts are kept? — ^A. Yes; I 
 look over the accounts sometimes. The accounts are kept in the vay 
 that such large transactions usually are in our business; the names of 
 parties to large transactions do not appear in the books; they are rep- 
 resented by figures or something of that kind, indicating the persons to 
 whom they relate. 
 
 Q. State whether your firm were large purchasers of gold during the 
 latter part of August and the early part of September. — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What amount? — A. That is impossible for me to state; I do busi- 
 ness through various oflcers in the street; I may buy and sell a good 
 deal of gold, and it may come out very nearly even at night, the object 
 being to shake the market up and make it lively; I would not make any 
 report to the office of these transactions; they would be settled through 
 the clearing-house, and I should report the balance to the office, there- 
 fore I could not give you any statement of the amount I have bought 
 and sold ; I can state generally that the amount is large. 
 
 Q. Did you buy more than you sold during the month of August?— 
 A. I think I did. 
 
 Q. What balance had you on hand at the end of the month, as near 
 as you can remember? — ^A. I could not tell you, even from the books, at 
 all. 
 
 Q. Did you continue to buy more than you sold during the first half 
 of September?— A. Yes; I think I did. 
 
 Q. Coming down to the week known as panic week, about the 20th of 
 September, about how much gold do you think you- were carrying; in 
 other words, how much had you the right to call for? — A. Taking it up 
 to about the 22d, I should say the largest amount of gold we held at any 
 one time was probably from $40,000,000 to $50,000,000 or $55,000,000. 
 
 Q. In what shape was this held; simply in the right to call? — ^A. 0, 
 no; the gold was purchased and loaned out. 
 
 Q. But you could call for that amount of gold? — A. Yes; if we had 
 the money to pay for it. 
 
 Q. How much did you increase the amount of your purchases and the 
 amount you were carrying during the 22d, 23d, and 24th? — A. I sold 
 very largely on the 24th, and on the 23d I sold more gold than I bought. 
 
 Q. Did you buy any on the 24th? — ^A. Yes; a little, but I sold a great 
 deal more. 
 
 Q. Through whom did you transact your business during that week?— 
 A. Through a great many persons. 
 
 Q. How many brokers did you employ? — I would employ one broker 
 and he in turn would employ several others; it is impossible for me to 
 say anything about it. 
 
 Q. In your judgment how many do you think were employed by you 
 and for you through others?— A. Probably fifty or sixty; it is impossible 
 to give a correct estimate. 
 
 Q. For whom did you buy gold?— A. The only very large customer I 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 283 
 
 know was Jay Gould, of my own flrm; we had some gold for Woodward 
 and some for dttier small customers. 
 
 Q. Down to what time was Woodward with you in gold transactions ? — 
 A. He is a large customer of ours; he bought some gold in August, and 
 during that time also sold some gold; he has been for a long time one of 
 our regular customers. 
 
 Q. What was the general policy of your flrm during the month of 
 September; was it to put gold up? — A. The flrm had nothing to do with 
 it; the firm is a commission house; we do business for Jay Gould; Jay 
 Gould speculates, but the firm does not speculate. 
 
 Q. During the month of September were efforts made to put up gold 1 — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How many persons do you know who transacted business with you 
 
 who were engaged in putting up gold? State their names ^A. There 
 
 were no prominent parties; we always have more or less customers who 
 will buy gold, perhaps a hundred thousand dollars at a time, not with 
 any view of influencing the market, but for the purpose of making money 
 if gold goes up. 
 
 Q. Did you do business for Mr. Kimber? — ^A. He had an account with 
 us. 
 
 Q. What relations did your flrm sustain to E. K. WUlard? — ^A. E. K. 
 WUlard was a broker for us, and has been for some time; that is, I 
 employed him. 
 
 Q. Where did yon spend most of the days of the 23d and 24th of Sep- 
 tember? — A. I was in the office, about the street, and aU over. 
 
 Q. Were you in the office of William Heath & Company considerably 
 during that day? — ^A. No great portion of the time. I may have been 
 in there. 
 
 Q. Did you see Albert Speyers on tfiat day in that office? — ^A. 1 pre- 
 sume I did, 1 am not certain. 
 
 Q. State what, if any, orders yon gave to Speyers? — ^A. I did not give 
 him any orders. 
 
 Q. Did you hear anybody give him any orders? — ^A. Not to my 
 knowledge. 
 
 Q. Did you not give Speyers an order to loan gold? — ^A. I do not 
 think I did. 
 
 Q. Did you not give Speyers directions as to the rate at which he was 
 to loan gold? — ^A. No, sir. I never gave him any directions. He did no 
 business for us at hU. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect Speyers coming into the room and stating that he 
 could not loan gold ; Mr. Fisk asked him why ; and he said the limits 
 Smith had given him were such that he could not loan it on the street? — 
 A. I do not remember it. I was busy attending to my own business. 
 I do not think I had anything to do with Speyers or made any remark 
 to him. 
 
 Q. Did you have any transactions that day with William Belden? — 
 A. We may have in borrowing and loaning. I do not remember. 
 
 Q. Did you with William Heath & Company? — A. Yes, sir. William 
 Heath & Company, however, bought no gold for us on the 23d or 24:th. 
 Up to that time 1 had been employing them with Carver and other 
 brokers to buy gold and loan it out on the market for us. 
 
 Q. ^ere you present at a meeting in any place in New York on the 
 evening of the 23d of September, in which the general condition and 
 situation of the gold market was discussed? — ^A. I do not think I was. 
 
 Q. Were you at the offices of the Erie Eailroad Company during that 
 
284 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 evening? — A. I may have been about the 23d. I was up very frequently 
 in the evening. 
 
 Q. Do you remember a discussion about the general situation, in the 
 course of which a proposition was made to publish a statement of the 
 situation, giving the names of those who were short, and how much, and 
 make a j)roposition for them to come and settle before three o'clock-at 
 60? — A. I do not remember it. 
 
 Q. Didyouever hear of that proposition? — A. I do not remember that 
 I did. Certainly if a proposition of that kind had been made to me I 
 should have rejected it, because, although I had no interest in it, yet 
 my credit was at stake. I should have rejected it at once because it was 
 a thing that would not do at aU. 
 
 Q. Why not? — A. It would be very foolish to advertise your position. 
 I do not remember hearing of it at all. 
 
 Q. You made, did you not, a large number of settlements on the 24th 
 in the early part of the day ? — A. You may call it settlements or what- 
 ever you like. Parties came to me and wanted to buy gold, and I sold 
 to them. I was selling gold all day. A part of the time I was selling 
 without orders. 
 
 Q. How much gold did you sell that day? — A. I do not remember the 
 amount. I sold from forty-five to flffcy-flve million. Perhaps the amount 
 may have been even larger than that, taking into account the sales 
 which were not delivered. 
 
 Q. At what prices did you sell? — A. I sold from 50-odd down to 35. 
 
 Q. State what you mean by settlements. — A. I suppose a settlement 
 would be something like this : If I had gold loaned to a party and he 
 came to me — the price oeing 50 — and told me he could not pay that price 
 for the gold, and I should sell him the gold at 40 and take his money at 
 that price, that would be a settlement. 
 
 Q. Can you state the amount of your settlements during that day? — 
 A. It is impossible to state the amount. A settlement amounts to a sale 
 in one sense of the word. If a party cannot pay 50 for gold and I settle 
 with him at 40, that is a sale at 40. I have given you the amount (rf 
 sales, and you may take it as the amount of settlements. 
 
 Q. Were these settlements effected, or sales made in your office, or 
 were they made at the Gold Exchange Bank ? — A. They were made in 
 my office, made on the street, and made by the different brokers who 
 received their orders from me. 
 
 Q. Is that the ordinary mode of settlement ? — ^A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Did you clear your gold at the clearing-house ?-^A. I attempted 
 to clear ; Thursday's business was cleared on Friday. On Friday they 
 were in such a jumble that they could not make their clearances. My 
 Thursday's business was settled by one o'clock. I was anxious to get 
 the clearances through, for I thought if I could get settlements made 
 quick, my gold would come out. 
 
 Q. These settlements you made on Friday were nearly all in the 
 nature of compromises, were they not? — A. O, no. 
 
 Q. Were or were they not settlements made by parties who could not 
 settle at the fuU figures ?— A. There were some of that kind. 
 
 Q. How many parties do you think you made settlements with that 
 day ? — A. I could not say, at all. 
 
 Q. A hundred ? — ^A. I do not know ; I have no idea. 
 
 Q. A thousand? — A. O, no; we made a great many sales; I do not 
 know how many settlements. 
 
 Q. State whether you had any difficulty in making your settlements 
 through the Gold Exchange Bank.— A. A great many parties failed 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 285 
 
 and could not make their settlements good. The bank went on paying 
 out portions of accounts ; if the bank had not paid oat a dollar until 
 the clearances were made, it would have been all right. Their difficulty 
 was that they paid parties portions of their amounts in order to get at 
 their money ; and they paid parties, too, who failed and were not able 
 to make good their settlements. When these failures were known the 
 bank got its matters all mixed up. 
 
 Q. Did you or any member of your firm bring any suit against the 
 Gold Exchange Bank ? — A. I really do not know whether we did or not. 
 I do not think we did. 
 
 Q. Did any parties operating for you, bring suits ? — ^A. Parties we 
 had business with may have brought suit. They brought them, I be- 
 lieve, in their own names. I think the bank did not owe us any money. 
 If I remember right, on Thursday I sent in a statement showing about 
 nine millions of gold short. I afterward borrowed gold in the clear- 
 ing-house and made my statement right in gold ; so that I had some 
 two hundred and odd thousand dollars in currency due the bank. I do 
 not think, therefore, we brought any suits against the bank, because we 
 owed the bank money. 
 
 Q. Have any suits been brought against your firm in consequence of 
 these transactions 1 — A. I think there have ; I really cannot tell what 
 they are. Any such matters are turned over to our attorneys, and we 
 pay no more attention to them. 
 
 Q. What part did your firm take in procuring injunctions against the 
 Gold Exchange Bank? — ^A. I could not tell; I think I got up three or 
 four injunctions in one night myself. I brought suits against the Gold 
 Exchange Bank, for the purpose of enforcing our contracts in respect 
 to this gold, as I made them. We have a rule in the Gold Board by 
 which, if there is nothing expressed more than a man's saying, " I will 
 sell gold at 50," and another man's saying " I will take it," that the 
 gold is to be cleared through the Gold Exchange Bank. When this 
 thing got mixed up on Friday and Saturday, they adjourned the Gold 
 Board for a day or two, and then attempted to get up another clearing- 
 house entirely outside of this. I held back for my settlement for some 
 time, because I considered that that was intended evidently to be 
 against us. In other words, -they wanted us to take gold when they 
 would not receive it from us. I did not clear through this outside 
 house ; I never agreed to, and never did, and they broke it up when 
 they found they could not make us clear there. Then they held and 
 made an endeavor to make us settle ex-clearing-house. That I knew 
 could not be done. There was no house in the United States, and no 
 three houses that could do it. Therefore, we got out injunctions re- 
 straining the Gold Board, and restraining all the brokers who had con- 
 tracts for us, from receiving gold. 
 
 Q. Before what courts did you get these injunctions ?— A. I think the 
 supreme court ; I do not remember. 
 
 Q. Who were your attorneys ? — A. Field & Sherman, I think. 
 
 Q. Did your firm pay the fees, or did others assist you in paying 
 them 1 — A. As our firm did not do business for itself, I did not intend 
 that the firm should pay the fees. I intended that Jay Gould, for whose 
 benefit we did the business, should pay the fees. 
 
 Q. How is it that Jay Gould, who is a member of your firm, transacts 
 his business as an individual through your firm ? — A. He operated per- 
 sonally through the firm as any one else would do. 
 
 Q. Did you say that your firm is not responsible for his operations? 
 
 A. I do not know that they are, except in this way : Of course, if he 
 
286 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 should fail in his own private operations, his interest in our house 
 would suffer, and it might affect the interest of the firm. We were in- 
 terested in his operations, therefore, so far as his ultimate liability would 
 be concerned if he should fail. The firm had no interest in the rise oi 
 fall of gold. 
 
 Q. How much currency did you use in the transactions extending to 
 the forty or fifty millions you have spoken of? — A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Can you state anything about it? — A. We never use any money 
 in our ofi&ce. The only currency we use there is what we have for our 
 own private expenses. Our business is done entirely in checks. 
 
 Q,. To what amount were checks used in that instance ? — A. Various 
 amounts ; I cannot tell you anything about it. 
 
 Q. What bank usually certified your checks on those days ? — A. I 
 think the Bank of the Commonwealth. The checks, however, give no 
 measure of the amount of business done. We only pay our diftierences 
 in checks. 
 
 Q. What was the occasion of the breakdown of the 24th? — ^A. I sup- 
 pose it was because I sold gold so heavily. 
 
 Q. Did you sell for the purpose of breaking down the market ? — A. I 
 sold for the purpose of selling my gold. I would have been very glad 
 if it had not broken down. 
 
 Q. What reason have you to suppose your selling broke the market !— 
 A. Because I sold so large an amount. 
 
 Q. Do you think that was sufilcient ? — A. I suppose it was ; I did 
 not sell for the purpose of breaking the market j I only wanted to sell 
 my gold. 
 
 Q. Why did you v.-^^nt to sell gold? — A. I felt that I had too much. 
 I sold the fore part of the day without orders, and the latter part of the 
 day I had orders. 
 
 Q. From whom? — A. Prom Mr. Gould. 
 
 Q. What led you to think that you had too much? — A. Because the 
 amount was so large. 
 
 Q. Tou had as much the day before, and yet you did not sell ? — A. 
 Not so much to sell;' and I did sell some the day before; I sold seven 
 or eight millions the day before. 
 
 Q. You had some other reason than the mere amount you carried, 
 because that had not alarmed you before. What peculiar reason was 
 there that day? — A. We always sell when we have a market to sell. If 
 we buy gold and it goes up, we want to sell to realize the profit. 
 
 Q. Did you sell gold to Speyers during the day? — A. I do not remem- 
 ber; I presume so. 
 
 Q. If you did, did you settle? — A. If we did, he failed, and it did not 
 go out. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Gould give you any reason for selling gold that day?— 
 A. It was noised around the street that the Treasury was going to sell. 
 
 Q. Did you hear Mr. Gould talk on that subject?— A. I do not think 
 I did. I went to hiim in the morning. I felt as if there was something 
 wrong in the market; it acted feverish. There are some things in con- 
 nection with the market that a man familiar with it understands perfectly, 
 and yet cannot describe. I told him early in the morning I was afraid 
 the Treasury would be selling. It went up too rapidly. It was not my 
 desire to have it rise so rapidly. I went to Mr. Gould and asked him 
 to let me seU. He said, "No, do not sell any;" and I disregarded his 
 orders. 
 
 Q. At what time in the day was it that he said that? — A. This was 
 ten or eleven in the morning; I do not know the exact time. I sold 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 287 
 
 ■without orders because I was fearful that if anything should happen, 
 gold might decline so as to break us. I was protecting myself, regard- 
 less of orders or anything else. 
 
 Q. Did the gold market in fact break before the order of the Treasuiy 
 to sell was known? — A. I do not know; what time the notice became 
 public. 1 do not say but what the notice that the Treasury was going 
 to sell may have broken tlie market. 
 
 Q. Did you not say that it did not?— A. Ko; I did not say that it 
 did not. I said my sales, I thought, broke the market. My sales may 
 have broken the market for the moment, and if the Treasury had not 
 advertised to sell gold the market might not have gone so low, and it 
 might have immediately recovered itself. 
 
 Q. When did you first receive a knowledge that the Treasury was 
 going to sell? — A. I do not know; it was some time during the day; it 
 was told me by some one. 
 
 Q. Did you receive any communication during the day in regard to 
 the Treasury sales before the news came?^A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Did you send any message to the sub-treasury? — A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any having been sent by any individual? — A. I 
 do not. 
 
 Q. Do you know of Mr. Fisk or Mr. Gould's having sent any mes- 
 sage? — A. 'Ko, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any person in New York who received any mes- 
 sage from the Treasury? — A. I do not know of any one. 
 • Q. Do you know any officer of the United States government who 
 had any interest in, or took any part in the movement in gold during 
 September last, directly or indirectly?^ — ^A. I do not know of any one. 
 
 By Mr. JONES : 
 
 Q. Did you buy any gold for Mr. Corbin? — ^A. No, sir; not to my 
 knowledge. ' 
 
 Q. Did you buy any for any member of Ms family, or the President's 
 family? — ^A. Not to my knowledge. I only bought gold on Mr. Gould's 
 order. I do not know of any gold having gone to them. Their names 
 are not on our books. I never had any orders to buy any for them. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What is the name of the clerk in your office who makes up notices 
 
 of purchases for any person? — .A. We have a man by the name of 
 
 . Timpson, another by the name of Bicker, and another by the name of 
 
 Seeley; they are bookkeepers. Sometimes small boys make out notices 
 
 of this kind. There is no particular one who makes these notices. 
 
 By Mr. Packer : 
 
 Q. When you speak of having forty-four or forty-five millions of gold, 
 do you mean that as the result of the operations of that day, or the 
 whole sum you had? — ^A. The whole sum,; I meant that sum was sold. 
 It did not all go out; it was not all taken. 
 
 Q.' What was the amout of these settlements which you made on the 
 23d and 24th?— A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Could you not approximate to the amount?— A. I could not. Seti 
 tlements are usually made in this way: We have loaned a man gold, 
 which we have made to him at 43 or 40. If he had made it up to 40 
 and settled for 45, then there Would be five per cent, payable by him. 
 
 Q. That would be the amount of your profit?— A. No; it would 
 not be the amount at all, because the gold was loaned out to him, and 
 he may have been called up on that gold half a dozen times before. 
 
288 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 When gold goes up, word will be sent to the man to whom it is loaned to 
 make that gold to the market price. If it falls we have to make it up 
 to him ; so that any final settlement made would not give any indica- 
 tion of the actnal profit or loss on the gold. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. What was the cause of this remarkable rise in gold? — A. I do not 
 know; large purchases, I suppose. 
 
 Q. When did you first suppose gold was going up? — ^A. I was away 
 in the country when Mr. Gould first began to buy gold. The price was 
 then down on him. He asked' me how he had better get out of it. I 
 told him I thought he had better buy some more. 
 
 Q. Is there any person who is entitled to the credit of putting up 
 gold ? — A. They gave us the credit for it. 
 
 Q. What was your object in putting up the price of gold? — A. Our 
 object was to make a profit. 
 
 Q. You did not consider it necessary for the benefit of the country 
 generally that it should go up ? — A. A man may have his private ideas 
 about this thing. My own private idea is that it would have been a 
 great benefit to the country if gold had remained at 40 or 45. 
 
 Q. You knew Mr. Gould's theory upon that subject? — A. I have talked 
 with him upon the subject. I have always thought that the market 
 price of gold at a higher rate than its actual value was beneficial to the 
 business of the country — much better than the low price at present. 
 
 Q. But your object in putting up the price was to make profit? — A.. 
 Of course. A man does not buy gold except to make money, and does 
 not sell short except to make money. 
 
 By the Chairman. 
 
 Q. Do you know James Brown ? — A. I have seen him. He is a broker. 
 
 Q. Did he call on you Friday before the breakdown ? — A. I presume 
 so. There were more than forty men at one time in the of&ce. I had to 
 get up and make a sort of speech to clear the offlce. I was half crazy 
 that day. 
 
 Q. Did anybody in your firm buy gold of James Brown, or sell to 
 him? — A. I think there was quite a large amount sold to him — of 
 several millions. 
 
 Q. Has that gold been settled for?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Why not? — A. He did not take it. Thereisno enforcing contracts 
 made in the gold-room. 
 
 Q. Is it his fault that a settlement is not made ? — A. Certainly. I 
 should be very glad to deliver him the gold; but, under the law, con- 
 tracts in the gold-room, unless they are in writing, are not valid. You 
 may seU a man a million of gold, but you cannot compel him to take it, 
 except by the rules of the board. 
 
 Q. What did Mr. Brown say to you on that subject that day?— A. I 
 do not remember. I remember seeing him sometime, and he was quite 
 angry. 
 
 Q. Did he not try to make a delivery of seven mdlions to you or yom' 
 
 firni? A. I do not know that he ever did. I do not remember that he 
 
 did. I sold that gold to Mr. Brown through other brokers. 
 
 By Mr. Oobuen : 
 Q. Did you have, any communication with any ofBcer of the govern- 
 ment in Washington or New York, during that day?— A. No, sir. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATIOlSr. 289 
 
 Washing-ton, D. C, January 29, 1870. 
 
 A. A. Lo"W sworn and examined. 
 To the Ohaeeman : 
 
 I reside in Brooklyn, and do business in New York. I am a mercliant 
 in the trade with China and Japan. I have been in that business since 
 1840. 
 
 Q. "Were you lately president of the New York Chamber of Com- 
 merce ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with the course of gold during the months of 
 August and September last? — A. Generally. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with the effect of the late movement in gold upon 
 the general business interests of New York in particular, and of the 
 country in general f — ^A. The effect of constant changes in the value of 
 gold is very prejudicial and very embarrassing to all who are engaged in 
 commerce, especially in foreign commerce. It is embarrassing in many 
 ways. It is embarrassing to the vendor of goods, because all foreign 
 imports are paid for in exchange, and exchange is bought with gold ; 
 and oftentimes the merchandise that is imported from abroad is sold 
 in advance of the time when it is paid for ; or paid for with high gold,, 
 and afterward sold when gold is less valuable. Sometimes goods are 
 imported and paid for, and being unsaleable are kept on hand, and 
 changes in the value of gold from time to time are embarrassing, and 
 often injurious. As an importer, I sell goods to the jobber. The jobber 
 is the distributor; not the man who distributes in the country, perhaps,., 
 but who distributes to the smaller dealers throughout the country. I 
 may sell to him teas, for instance — a staple with which I am most, 
 familiar — and he must buy them from me for gold, which, at the time^ 
 of purchase, may be thirty per cent, premium. Me -sells the goods for- 
 currency, and his purchaser, .as well as himself, is guided by the value- 
 of gold at the time. If the price of tea be 50 cents a pound, and the- 
 premium on gold be 30 per cent., the currency price of the tea would be- 
 65 cents. The jobber having bought his teas for gold, stipulates to jiay 
 for them at the expiration of 30, 60, or 90 days, as the case may be,, 
 and he proceeds to sell his goods for currency. Of course, if the price 
 of gold advances from 30 to 35 or 40 per cent, between the time of sell- 
 ing and the time of payment, all Ms profit may be swept away. There- 
 is no stability — there has been none in the price of gold for many years, 
 for reasons which I can explain to you by and by. I have mentioned 
 one of many ways in which the constant fluctuation in the price of gold 
 affects those who are interested in the importation of goods and those 
 who buy the goods from the importer here. 
 
 Q. What measures do you take as importers or sellers of foreign 
 goods to protect yourselves against the dangers and losses arising out 
 of these fluctuations ?— A. Diiferent men are governed differently. 
 Some men have the idea that gold is always cheap, and they will take 
 the chance of buying gold. Other men guard themselves by borrowing 
 gold until they can reimburse themselves from the goods which they 
 have for sale. 
 
 Q. Are you not all compelled to mark u]3 the price of your goods in 
 consequence of this uncertain element ? — ^A. Of course ; we should not 
 mark them up in gold. 
 
 Q. I mean those who sell in currency 1 — ^A. Certainly; the jobbers 
 must mark prices up or down, according to the fluctuations in gold. 
 Generally speaking, of late years, an advance in gold has been prejudi- 
 cial to those who sell goods for gold, because in view of the ups and 
 H. Een. 31 19 
 
290 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 downs in gold the currency price of mercliandise has ceased to respond 
 readily to the speculative changes in the gold premium, and the conse- 
 quence of a rise or fall is a temporfijy cessation of business. 
 
 Q. Do you know about what percentage those who sell foreign goods 
 for currency usually increase the price of goods, for the purpose of in- 
 suring themselves against fluctuations in gold ? — A, There has been such 
 an incredulity in regard to any continued advance in gold, that it has 
 been very difficult to advance the price of goods in curreiicy. The price 
 in currency, especially during the period to which you refer, was not mucli 
 changed because of those violent fluctuations in gold. It was exceed- 
 ingly difficult to get any advance in currency, because there was a want 
 of belief in the stability of that advance in gold. It was understood by 
 everybody to be a speculative movement, and intelligent men did not 
 believe in any permanent advance of such a nature. 
 
 Q. But as a general rule, in ordinary times, during the suspension of 
 specie payment, the sellers of imported goods, who sell for currency, do 
 necessarily mark up the price to cover their risks ? — A. ^Necessarily ; they 
 must mark up the price of the goods, to compare with the fluctuations 
 in gold. 
 
 Q. And the cost of those fluctuations is ultimately paid for by the 
 consumer of those products ? — A. Unquestionably. And it is impossible 
 to goard against losses by these fluctuations; it would be impossible for 
 me to guard against them. For instance, it is a part of our business to 
 send merchandise to China for sale. We send cotton goods, the product 
 of our own looms. The price of cotton is necessarily governed by the 
 price of gold — ^the foreign market to a certain extent, and that a very 
 large extent, determining the value of cotton at home ; so that, if we 
 buy cotton goods, they are based upon the value of cotton in gold. "We 
 send them to China for sale ; they remain there a long while unsold ; and 
 in the mean time gold, instead of remaining at forty per cent, premium, 
 falls to twenty per cent. The final conversion of the proceeds into currency 
 is thus attended with a loss of twenty per cent., whether the result in other 
 respects has been good or ill. We are all the time liable to suffer loss on 
 goods shipped to foreign countries, and few are disposed to incur such 
 a risk ; for we regard a downward tendency as most natural. 
 
 Q. What do you think is the average daily amount of transactions 
 arising froni a foreign trade in gold, where we must pass either from 
 paper to gold or from gold to paper, in completing the transactions 1 — 
 A. It is impossible for me to answer that question, except upon some 
 general knowledge of our importations. 
 
 By Mr. Jtjdd : 
 Q. You did not quite finish yom' answer as to how merchants protect 
 themselves against these fluctuations in gold. — A, I said that some are 
 willing to take the risk, believing that gold will be higher or lower, as 
 may best suit their individual cases. Others borrow gold ; and the mode 
 of borrowing is to give the value for the time being in currency, taking 
 the gold and giving currency for it. That temporarily liquidates the 
 transaction. If the price of gold advances, the man who receives cur- 
 rency for the gold generally provides that a margin shaUbe paid to him, 
 so that he shall be fuUy covered; and, vice versa, if it falls, the holder 
 of the gold requires a margin to be paid to him. It depends, of course, 
 upon the character of the parties whether such conditions would be 
 nicely observed or not. 
 
 BytheCHAiEMAN: 
 Q. What is the machinery in New York by which transactions of that 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 291 
 
 kind are carried out? — A. Transactions of that nature are made most 
 generally with brokers ; men who have access to parties who actually 
 hold gold. I do not think that such transactions would reach what is 
 known as the Gold Exchange. 
 
 Q. From your acquaintance with that class of business, do you think 
 that the Gold Exchange is a necessary machine of exchange ? — ^A. My 
 impression is that it is not. I think it might be made useful, but that 
 the abuses of the institution far exceed its uses. 
 
 By Mr. Judd: 
 Q. Could not all the regular, legitimate business for the purpose of 
 exchange be done in New- York without this Gold Exchange? — A. As I 
 said before, I think the Gold Exchange would be very useful if it were 
 confined to legitimate business; but the illegitimate business so far ex- 
 ceeds the legitimate, that I think it is a great bane. I know no legit- 
 imate business that could not be transacted withotft it. Your own ob- 
 servation will have shown you that when we had no Gold Exchange, 
 during the temporary suspension of the Gold Exchange Bank, gold was 
 steady ; with but little perceptible variation. 
 
 By the Ohaieman: 
 
 Q. Did you find any diflEiculty in transacting your business during 
 that period? — A. None at all. I think the merchants generally deprecate 
 the revival of that institution. 
 
 Q. State a little more specifically what you regard as the evil of the 
 Gold Exchange Bank. — A. The one grand evil is that it is a gambling 
 institution, and demoralizing in its nature. 
 
 Q. In what way is it a gambling institution? — A. Transactions there are 
 of a gambling character. Gold is bought and sold and exchanged there ; 
 but more frequently, and far more extensively, gold is bought and sold 
 when no gold changes hands. 
 
 Q. Can a man, as a matter of fact, make large purchases and sales of 
 gold through that institution, without having any considerable amount 
 of capital to go on ? — A. In answer to that, I shaU speak without actual 
 knowledge, but everybody understands that the majority of those who 
 operate there are men of limited means. There are hundreds of them, 
 certainly, who are men of small means, while there are many respecta- 
 ble men who go there because the institution is established, and because 
 it is a place where much legitimate business is transacted. While it ex- 
 ists it absorbs that which is legitimate and proper in connection with 
 all that which is illegitimate and improper. 
 
 Q. You have now stated in general the influence of fluctuations in 
 gold upon the foreign trade of the country ; now state, as a matter of 
 factj what was the influence of that gold panic in September upon the 
 trad.e of New York. Did you observe any special hardship arising out 
 of it to business ? — A. Prom my own knowledge, and my own experi- 
 ence, I cannot speak of many cases. I know that there was a transac- 
 tion of this nature. It is customary for certain institutions and for cer- 
 tain individuals in the city to receive from other parts of the country 
 biUs of exchange drawn on England for sale, and orders are transmitted 
 from Savannah, Charleston, and other parts, to sell exchange that is on the 
 way. The party to whom the instructions are given (and I refer to one 
 instance in particular) has been accustomed to sell his gold deliverable f\n 
 the day when the exchange would fall due, and to sell the exchange de- 
 liverable the same day. I know of one very respectable institution 
 which in the month of September, about the time of the great disturb- 
 
292 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 ance, liad sold the probable proceeds of exchange then on the way, de- 
 pending on the due receipt of gold for exchange to cover the sale ; but, 
 ^•hen the day came, it was impossible to get money for exchange within 
 fifteen per cent, of its real value. Under the urgency of the circumstances, 
 the gentleman having sold his gold, was constrained to step into the street 
 and sell that exchange on account of his corresponding bank, and he 
 actually sold it for ninety -five cents on the dollar, instead of 106 or 107, 
 which he could have got for it when he returned to his office five min- 
 utes after. When he left his oflce gold was at 160 ; when he returned, it 
 was at 135. That single transaction illustrates hundreds of others. One 
 instance is as good as many, and that is one of many. This man was 
 the president of an institution whose capital is two millions, and in as 
 high credit as any other in the city of New York. The loss was six or 
 seven thousand dollars in that single transaction. It involved the bank, it 
 involved the intermediate agent, and it involve d the broker, and each was 
 a sufferer. Just at that time there were probably many merchants who 
 had borrowed gold, who, not understanding the influence that was at 
 work, were intimidated, as men are apt to be when there is a rise in gold, 
 and led to go in and protect themselves by buying gold at 50 to 60, to 
 pay off gold which they had borrowed at 35. It was one of the evils of 
 the institution to which you refer ; that it became a theater where all 
 the most malign reports were put in circulation. In September we 
 heard much of the strength of the combination that had the speculation 
 in gold in hand, and some brokers were especially busy in spreading 
 abroad this idea that the combination was all-powerful. In the Eve- 
 ning Post of the very day upon which the speculation culminated, there 
 was an editorial in which the writer says that, if the government should 
 sell gold, it would give those strong men the coveted opportunity to get 
 more, and that, upon a rumor that the government would sell gold, 
 the price advanced two or three per cent. The article was not dry Irom 
 the pen before the speculation broke, and the prediction of that editor 
 was set at naught. The press, or the financial columns of the press; 
 appear to have been controlled by men who have been interested in these 
 speculations, and constantly articles have been published which, to all 
 appearances, were intended to blind and mislead the community. The 
 Gold Exchange has been the fruitful source of falsehoods which disturb 
 trade and aggravate the trouble of doing business with two currencies. 
 
 Q. What do you understand to have been the cause of the extraordi- 
 nary rise in gold during the month of September? — A. The immediate 
 cause I understand to have been the combination of men to raise the 
 price of gold for purposes of their own ; men who acted on the belief 
 that the government would continue to hoard its gold, as it had been 
 doing, depriyiag the country of the use of that gold. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion of the effect of the government holding this 
 large amount of treasure in its vaults continuously upon the business of 
 the country; and state whether you know of any good reason why it 
 should be so held?— A. It is fair to say that my own views are not in 
 accord with the views of a great many others with whom I meet.' I 
 believe that the holding of gold by the Treasury to so large an amount 
 has been greatly prejadicial to the interests of the country. I think it 
 has placed the securities of our country at the command of Europe at a 
 much cheaper price than they could otherwise have been obtained at. I 
 think it has aided conspirators against the public weal in their efforts , 
 to advance the price of gold ; in fact, it is the capital upon which they 
 act. Whether they had assurances or not that the government would 
 or would not sell gold, they acted upon the policy, which, without being 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 293 
 
 declared, was certainly apparent, that the government would hold its 
 gold. That made speculation a matter of pretty easy calculation. A 
 certain number of men combined and absorbed what gold there was in 
 the marketi and then, by a process of manipulation, they could advance 
 the price. I believe that it could have been advanced to 200 if the gov- 
 ernment had left them to their work ; but the general effect of withhold- 
 ing gold from the market is necessarily to enhance its price ; gold, like 
 other things, is an article of merchandise. At present it is aibsolutely 
 necessary for the functions of trade ; it is absolutely necessary for all 
 business transactions with foreign countries, and probably the ques- 
 tion which the chairman asked me some time ago might be answered by 
 taking the imports of the country at their known value, some three or 
 four hundred millions, which would give over a million of dollars a day. 
 That would answer the question approximately ; but goods change hands 
 many times, and exchange operations are extensive, and the uses of gold 
 various and not easily measured ; then the government receives, day by 
 day, some half a million of dollars in the city of New York for duties, 
 and that makes an unceasing demand for gold. 
 
 Q. Upon the government's side, what need is there for the government 
 to hold so much gold for its own sake ? — ^A. I understand that it is pre- 
 judicial to the country in that regard too, because the government is 
 losing the interest on a very large amount of money, and the infliience 
 upon business is prejudicial to the country. 
 
 By Mr. COBUKN: 
 Q. If this gold was sold out of the treasury down to the bare 
 amount sufficient to pay the interest on the public debt and the 
 current expenses of the government, would not the brokers have 
 a greater control over the market than they have at present with 
 the threat which the Secretary of the Treasury can hold over them '? — 
 A. My own belief is that the price of gold is governed, like the 
 price of everything else, by supply and demand. If there is a large 
 supply in the market, the price is cheap; if there is a small supply, it 
 is dear, inevitably so ; and any plan for holding gold with a view of 
 finally bringing about specie payment seems to me to be entirely falla- 
 cious. The idea of the Secretary's requiring a large amount of gold, so 
 as to control the market, is the argument of the men who are interested 
 in keeping up the price of gold. They ply the Secretary with every 
 kind of argument to induce him to hold gold. They tell him that if he 
 holds aU the gold, then the people have confidence in the notes of the 
 government. They tell him -that he can at all times hold it as a threat 
 over the market. But the object is to induce him to hold it, so that 
 they may speculate upon the balance. They do not want to deal with 
 much gold, if they can deal with little. If there are only ten millions 
 in the market, they can handle that and elevate the price; but the price 
 of gold, like the price of every other commodity, must finally depend 
 upon supply and demand. 
 
 By the CHAlKjiiAN : 
 Q. If the government should buy about three-fourths of all the wheat in 
 the country and hold it in government storehouses, do you think that the 
 effect on the wheat trade would be quite parallel to the effect upon the gold 
 trade of holding so much gold? — A. Exactly the same. If any one will take 
 three-fourths of the tea in the market, a better price can be got for 
 what remains than if the whole were on the market for sale ; and the 
 argument is as true of gold as it is of tea or flour. At one time the Assist- 
 
294 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 ant Secretary of the Treasury sold some fifteen or twenty millions gold, 
 under general instructions, in a very short time, and, in view of war 
 then imminent in Europe, very unwisely. Of course, there is some dis- 
 cretion to be exercised in regard to the sale of gold. When our foreign 
 exchanges are high and gold is in demand for shipment abroad, I think 
 it unwise to sell gold as freely as when exchanges are in the condition 
 in which they have been lately, because the country has no great 
 amount of gold to spare, and the only check xipon the export must be in 
 the advance of the premium. Therefore, I think that a sound discre- 
 tion would restrain the sale of gold under certain conditions of our 
 foreign exchanges. There was a time at which the price of gold was 
 sustained more than it has been lately by the profitableness of foreign 
 imports. When gold was forty -five to fifty per cent, premium, two or 
 three years ago, it was easy to import goods and sell them in currency 
 and convert the money into gold and ship it abroad. There was a 
 large profit in that business. I do not think it is so this year. The 
 inducement to imiiort has not been great, and with the market for gold 
 tending downward, as a general thing, the profitableness of importation 
 diminishes. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. As to the effect of the high price of gold on the moving of 
 crops ; I ATOuld like to know the result of that sort of policy on our 
 crops ? — A. That sort of argtmient would seem to me to be without 
 much force. The value of breadstuffs in currency ought to corres- 
 pond with the price abroad, and ought to be higher in currency if the 
 price of gold wCre higher than if the price of gold were lower ; and, 
 perhaps, with a higher price in currency our farmers might be more 
 ready to sell. But I do not think that, however plausible or however 
 true such an argument, it had much to do with the speculation in gold 
 in September, a thing which had to culminate in one or two days. 
 
 Q. After the gold should decline again, what would be the result on 
 the farming interest! — A. After the bubble burst a reaction would take 
 place. This speculation in gold indicated a desire on the part of those 
 who wera acting to get rich rather hastily; not by any slow transporta- 
 tion of cereals on our railroads. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. State what in your judgment caused the breakdown in gold on 
 that Friday? — A. The {idvertising of the public gold fbr sale. 
 
 Q. As a matter of fact, did the break occur before the news of that 
 sale, or after!— A. As a matter of fact I cannot tell you, because how 
 soon the parties who were most largely interested got the information, 
 I do not know; but I have no doubt that either when it was promul- 
 gated, or before it was openly promulgated, they knew that it was 
 coming, and that broke the price. 
 
 Q. You think that the shadow of the coming news fell upon themf— 
 A. I think so, unquestionably ; else I do not know why the operators 
 for a rise might not have forced the price up much higher, squeezing 
 the sellers for margins and growing stronger all the time, till they had 
 bankrupted their victims. 
 
 Q. Were you present some time during the month of September, at a 
 dinner given to Mr. Boutwell at the Union League Club? — A. I was 
 present. 
 
 Q. Was the subject of the general financial policy of the country there 
 discussed ?— A. No, sir; only so far as this, after the dinner Mr. Grinnell 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 295 
 
 gave the Secretary an opportunity to say a few words to those who 
 were present. The Secretary was very discreet and very general in his 
 observations. He confined himself, I think, to indicating that it would 
 be the policy of the government to pay its debts honestly and justly in 
 coin. Beyond that, I think, he did not go. 
 
 Q. Did the Secretary of the Treasury on that occasion, so far as you 
 know, give any, the least, indication of the policy of the government in 
 reference to the sales of gold ? — ^A. I am not aware that he did. 
 
 Q. Are you aware of any efforts on that occasion to draw from the 
 Secretary an expression on that subject? — A. I am not. After Mr. 
 Boutwell had spoken, the president of one of our banks (I think with- 
 out invitation) rose to develop his own views in regard to the subject of 
 specie payment, and he shocked some of the gentlemen present by sug- 
 gesting that the country was in a high condition of prosperity, and that 
 the true pohcy was to drift along. Mr. Grinnell did not ask for any 
 general expression of opinion, but rather yielded to the wishes of several 
 gentlemen who were present to repudiate such a financial policy — the 
 Secretary having disclaimed having any financial policy of his own. 
 Among others I took occasion myself to say to the Secretary that the 
 price of gold, which was then commencing to rise, could not be kept 
 down if the government pursued its policy of holding seven-tenths of 
 all the gold in the country, when there were such manifold uses for it, 
 for the payment of duties, and for all other purposes of trade ; and I 
 took occasion further to say, that it was an opportunity which a mer- 
 chant had hot often to speak, and that I hoped I should not go beyond 
 what was becoming and proper. I said that the financial columns of 
 our press were, or appeared to be, very largely in the hands of specu- 
 lators, and that while there was a great hue and cry if a few millions of 
 greenbacks were withdrawn from the market, seven-tenths of all the gold 
 in the country was locked up in the treasury of the United States, instead 
 of being utilized, and was withheld from the uses of the country. That 
 is about aU that transpired, audibly, in regard to gold. Whatever may 
 have passed between individuals I do not know. (Mr. Greeley had pre- 
 viously spoken of the patriotic duty of subscribing to a 6 or 4 or 4J per 
 cent, loan, and, I believe, in favor of gold sales ; also, Mr. Stewart in 
 favor of hard money. 
 
 By Mr. Cobtjrn: 
 
 Q. You say that about seventh-tenths of all the gold in the country is 
 locked up in the treasury ; will you state to the committee the means of 
 knowledge which you have, and the facts that you have in your posses- 
 sion, in reference to the amount of gold in this country? — a'. I have said 
 that seven-tenths of all the gold was locked up in the treasury. I do 
 not mean to say that I spoke with any degree of accuracy, but as illus- 
 trating my argument. 
 
 Q. We are all at sea on the question of proportionate amount of gold 
 in the treasury, and would like to hear your views on the subject ? — 
 A. I have no amount of knowledge in reference to it ; but I apprehend 
 there is very little gold in the country, except what is in the vaults of 
 the government treasury. I believe that the government treasury here, 
 and at other points, holds the greater part of all the gold in the country, 
 and that there is really very little gold out of it. I should not know 
 where to look for any more than a few gold pieces with any individual or 
 any institution. Some who require to use gold may have a little in their 
 own keeping. Our banks have some, but it is generally in the shape of 
 certificates of gold. Still there is some gold in the city of New York out 
 
296 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 of the public treasury ; but beyond the city of New York, and beyond 
 the treasury and banks of the country, I do not think there is much. 
 There must, of course, be considerable in CaUfornia. I remember read- 
 ing a speech of Senator Morton in -which he spoke of the hoarding of 
 gold in the country, and of the amount that, probably, exists in the 
 country ; but I never met the man in New York who believed in a 
 general hoarding of gold. I do not think there is any such hoarding. 
 Then we export a great deal of gold. Last year we exported seventy. 
 millions. The apparent export this year has not been so much. In '68 
 the export of gold was more apparent to the public eye ; because it 
 came to New York in the Pacific mail steamers, and passed from there 
 to Europe and was reported. Now, the gold that leaves San Francisco 
 goes to the Isthmus, and from there direct to England, and is lost to the 
 common eye, so that we appear not to be exporting while we are all the 
 • time exporting gold. Our stock of gold is not replenished now as it 
 was before by receipts from California. My own impression is that 
 one hundred and fifty millions of gold, for the whole country, would be 
 a pretty large estimate. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Do you believe that Congress can do anything to prevent such 
 catastrophes to business as occurred in the gold panic in September; 
 and if so, what? — A. I have always believed that with a moderate 
 amount of gold in the treasury, such an amount as the treasury has had 
 hitherto, it could regulate the price of gold. I still believe in that fully. 
 I believe the government has the power to regulate the price of gold. 
 That has been shown lately. The government has done something to 
 regulate the price of gold. It has done something to prevent its falling. 
 When it advertised lately to sell gold, if it had sold at the price offered, 
 gold would have gone lower, but the government took a stand and fixed 
 the price of gold, so that the community immediately said, " There is a 
 price below which the government will not sell." 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. Is there any other remedy for these mischiefs except to come to the 
 currency of commerce? — ^A. I do not think there is any other remedy 
 than for the government to redeem Treasury notes at their face. I 
 believe in that remedy. 
 
 Q. WiU not these fluctuations always occur if the Secretary goes on 
 from time to time to sell gold and undertake to regulate its price ? — A. 
 If the government treasury were pretty well supplied with gold, and 
 should indicate its purpose to redeem Treasury notes it could maintain 
 the position, because these Treasury notes are scattered all over the 
 country. They are unlike our old bank circulation. They are not local- 
 ized about New York or about Boston, but are scattered all over this 
 vast country, and they are nowhere in any considerable amount. Our 
 banks could not part with a dollar of them. If the government should 
 undertake to redeem them, the banks could send none in for redemption, 
 because they need all the United States notes they have at all times as 
 a reserve. The moment a demand was made on them for these Treasury 
 notes that moment they would have to curtail their discounts ; and, 
 therefore, there is no danger of any pressure on the treasury for redemp- 
 tion. If the banks were to send them in for redemption they would be 
 compelled to use specie instead of legal-tender notes, or expose them- 
 selves to this necessity. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 297 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. Do you know of any officer of the United States, either in Wash- 
 ington or ISew York, or elsewhere, who was directly or indirectly con- 
 cerned in, or interested in, the recent speculative movement in gold in 
 September last ? — ^A. No, sir ; I do not. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. What would be your remedy by federal legislation to avoid the 
 ' disasters consequent on these fluctuations ? — A. I do not think that I 
 have any remedy to suggest, except that which looks to the return of 
 specie payments. I believe myself that if the government of the United 
 States would receive a small portion of its legal-tender notes, say five or 
 ten jjer cent., in payment of duties, it would bring the country back 
 gradally to specie payments, which is the grand remedy for all these 
 evils. I do not know that any partial legislation would do any good, 
 except the adoption of a scaling price by which the value of legal-tender 
 notes would be brought down gradually to ijar. 
 
 ByMr. Packek: 
 Q. If the government should reduce its fund of gold to a sum barely 
 sufficient to meet the demands on the Treasiuy, what power could control 
 the market and prevent speculators from advancing the price of gold 
 without fear of interference with their movement ? — A. The Treasury 
 has recuperative powers in its customs receipts. But when the gold is 
 in the market it must yield to the common interpretation of its value. 
 What you have seen is a wicked combination of men to raise the price of 
 gold to the injury of the common interest of the country, basing their 
 calculations on the policy of the government to withhold so much gold, 
 that they could manipulate the balance ; but with eighty or ninety mil- 
 lions of gold in the market there is no probability of any such combina- 
 tion. There are few who have means, and few who have the nerve or 
 the will to enter into such combinations. 
 
 By the Chaibman: 
 Q. The load would be too heavy ; they could not manipulate such a 
 mass 1 — A. No, they could not manage it. The plan or conspiracy in 
 September was conceived on the belief that the government would adhere 
 to its determination not to sell gold. I believe that the government has 
 been imposed upon. I believe that the press of New York has been made 
 the engine for blinding the eyes of men in power, and that they have 
 been blinded. A broker, perhaps an emissary of that very combination, 
 came to me as if to make inquiries, and intimated to me that if the gov- 
 ment should sell gold the strongest combination that had ever existed 
 had the matter in hand, and would buy all the gold that the government 
 would offer, and yet the very advertisement of the sale of four millions 
 broke the whole thing. I urged upon the broker referred to that the 
 Secretary of the Treasury should drown the operators in gold, giving 
 them so much gold that they would not want any more. 
 
 ByMr. Packbe: 
 Q. Then you think there could not be a combination sufUciently strong 
 to absorb the whole of the gold in the country, including that held by 
 the Treasury ? — A. There are many men who honestly believe in higher 
 prices of gold, and who think that gold is cheap now. My experience 
 of men is that there are not many men who willfully conspire against 
 the common interests in that way, and that with an ample supply on the 
 market a combination is altogether unlikely. 
 
298 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. Do you know of any combination of men to " bear" gold as a sort 
 of response or counterplot to tbe conspiracy to raise the price of 'gold?— 
 A. I do not know of any such. There may be a conspiracy of bears us 
 well as of bulls ; and, therefore, I said before that in the main the price 
 of gold depends on the supply and demand. "While men may be brought 
 together to act on such an assumption as that we have considered, (the 
 hoarding of the greater part of gold in the country in the government 
 treasury,) there are other men who, looking at the probabilities, will sell 
 gold which other men buy. In fact, there will not be bulls without bears, 
 or bears without bulls. But after all the main thing to determine the 
 price of gold is supply and demand. It all finally rests there. If there 
 are multifarious uses for gold, and if there is very little gold, a legitimate 
 demand for that little would make the price advance inevitably. 
 
 By Mr. CoBtrRN: 
 ■ Q. How are we going to increase the supply of gold in this country?— 
 A. We cannot increase it with the balanpe of trade against us. It will 
 finally advance in spite of us when our bonds cease to attract buyers 
 abroad. If we export one hundred million of government bonds at 
 seventy-five cents on the dollar, foreigners prefer them to gold I suppose; 
 but if we should lose in another year some forty millions of gold, the 
 supply being small, it will advance again. 
 
 Q. If we export cheap bonds, would not the effect of that be to relieve 
 gold here ? — ^A. Yes, while the bonds last, but meantime see the effect 
 of the increase in the price of gold. Here is Mr. Stranahan, the head 
 of our Brooklyn Park Commission, who has been selling Brooklyn city 
 bonds at ijar, when Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., et id omne genus, ad- 
 vanced the price of gold from 35 to 45 per cent., the currency price of 
 Park bonds did not change at all. Bank stock yesterday sold at 123, 
 which would not have brought 123 when gold was worth from 145 to 
 160 per cent. Well, with gold at 160, see how much cheaper that bank 
 stock is to the foreigner who buys with gold. We are at the mercj' of 
 the foreigner all the time ; and while the government aids in keeping up 
 the price of gold by hoarding it, we are parting, at seventy-five to eighty 
 cents on the dollar, with our securities, which we are to pay at par by 
 and by. You see in this what is pernicious in principle and damaging 
 in practice. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. When gold went up under the movement inaugurated by Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Co. what was the price of Brooklyn bonds? — A. They 
 were at par. 
 
 Q. Did they depreciate ? — A. Theyneither depreciated nor advanced; 
 they remained just the same, but they were 25 per cent, lower to the 
 foreigner at one time than another. He buys in gold, but to us there is 
 no difierence in the price, because we pay in currency. They are so 
 much cheaper to the foreigner as gold is dearer than currency. 
 
 Q. What is your opinion of the general impression of the country as 
 to the intrinsic value of gold, considering our immense debt and our de- 
 preciated currency ? — A. There are a great many opinions in reference 
 to it ; the market price necessarily reflects the common j udgment. I have 
 endeavored to show that the action of the Treasury with respect 
 to selling and holding has much to do with the price. Proceedings in 
 Congress are also watched very closely, as well as political affairs abroad. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 299 
 
 WashingtoNj D. C, January 27, 1870. 
 
 William Bblden sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State your residence, place of business, and occupation.— 
 Answer. I reside in New York; I am a banker and broker in Wall 
 street. 
 
 Q. Were you engaged in business as a gold broker in the month of 
 September last ? — A. I was. 
 
 Q. Had you been in the habit of doing business before September last 
 for any one of the following parties : Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., Jay 
 Gould, Henry M. Smith, James B. Burch, James Fisk, jr., B. K. Wil- 
 lard, WiUiam Heath & Co., and Carver & Co. ?— A. I had been doing 
 business for Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., for Jay Gould, and James 
 Fisk. 
 
 Q. Did you, in September last, buy any gold for any of these parties? 
 If so, specify the amounts you bought and the dates of purchase, so far 
 as you remember. — A. I do not know that I can state that I did buy any 
 for them. 
 
 Q. Can you state that you did not buy any for any of them ? — A. I 
 bought no gold whatever for their account that I remember. 
 
 Q. Did you sell any gold for any of these persons or iirms during the 
 month of September ? — A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Did you loan any gold for any of these parties ? — A. I did not. 
 
 Q. If you did not buy, sell, or loan gold for any of these parties, for 
 whom did you buy, sell, or loan during the month of September ? — A. 
 For myself 
 
 Q. For yourself only ?^— A. For myself principally. 
 
 Q. To whom did you, during the month of September, give orders to 
 buy, sell, or loan gold i — ^A. I was in the habit of giving orders to any 
 brokers that I saw ; but they almost always gave me up ; which amounted 
 to the saro.e thing as if I had done it myself. 
 
 Q. State what brokers were transacting business for you. — A. Mr. 
 Gimbemat and Mr. Speyers have done business for me ; it is pretty dif- 
 ficult to recollect the names of all. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Boocock? — A. He did somewhat; not to a very large 
 amount. 
 
 Q. What amount of gold did you buy in the month of September, 
 previous to the breakdown on Friday, the 24th % — A. There may have 
 been some twenty millions; I think that would be a moderate esti- 
 mate. 
 
 Q. Do you think it was less than forty millions ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you think it was less than thirty millions ? — ^A. I have so many 
 contracts in dispute that it is difficult to say. I think twenty millions 
 would be a fair approximate of the amount. 
 
 Q. Did you see James Fisk, jr., Jay Gould, Mr. Smith and Mr. Spey- 
 ers together at any one place, on the 23d or 24th of September ; and if 
 so, where ? — ^A. I could not state positively whether I did or not. 
 
 Q. Did you go into Mr. Heath's office during either of these days ? — 
 A. I did. 
 
 Q. Did you take Mr. Spejsers in there with you? — A. I don't remember 
 whether I took him there or not. 
 
 Q. State what order you gave to Speyers, if any, on the 23d. — ^A. I 
 could not now state what orders I did give. I don't remember. It is 
 so long ago that it would be very difficult to make a positive state- 
 ment. 
 
300 
 
 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Going back to the 21st of September, did you order Speyerstobuy 
 a million of gold at 137^ ?— A. I think it is very probable, I cannot 
 answer positively. 
 
 Q. How much did he buy for you under that order f — ^A. Mr. Speyers 
 bought for me considerable gold ; he bought quite a large proportion of 
 the twenty millions I have mentioned ; I suppose at least one-third of it. 
 
 Q. On your order ? — A. I think it was. 
 
 Q. Who gave him any directions in regard to the ptlrchase, sale, or 
 loan of your gold, except yourself? — A. I told him that if Mr. Fiskgave 
 him an order, he might execute it for pie. I cannot be certain when 
 that was. 
 
 Q. What relation between you and Mr. Fisk led you to authorize him 
 to give orders to Speyers ? — A. We were all buying gold, and I was wil- 
 lijig to take what I thought I could hold. 
 
 Q. Were you buying for Fisk, or he buying for you ? — A. I was buy- 
 ing for myself, and I suppose Mr. Fisk was buying for himself, through 
 their office ; I don't know whether he was or not ; he never told me that 
 I remember. 
 
 Q. Did Fisk give Speyers any orders, so far as you know ? — A. I can- 
 not state i30sitively about that; the excitement was so great, and I was 
 very busy. 
 
 Q. How came you to authorize Fisk to give directions or orders to 
 Speyers with regard to buying gold for your account, unless there was 
 some previous agreement between you and Fisk in regard to it? — A. 
 Mr. Fisk and I had been partners for several years, and were more or 
 less connected in a great many transactions. He thought gold was 
 likely to go up, as I understood, and t believed it was. I had no desire 
 to interfere with him in the market. The " short" interest was enormous, 
 so far as I could see. I think it is very probable that I gave such an 
 order. I didn't give the matter such close attention as I know I ought 
 to have done. 
 
 Q. What was the aggregate amount of the " short" interest, so far as 
 you knew, before the breakdown, say on the 23d?— A. An answer to 
 that would be mere gaess-work. 
 
 Q. What was your own "short" interest? — A. I suppose, tweuty 
 millions. 
 
 Q. Did you have any consultation with any one else as to how much 
 they had ; for instance, as to how much Fisk had ?— A. I don't know 
 that he ever told me. 
 
 Q. Did you never ask him, or did you never hear him say, how much 
 he held ? — A. I don't know whether I did or not ; I don't remember it. 
 
 Q. From all you do remember about it, what is your impression of 
 the amount he held at that time ? — A. 1 suppose the house of Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Go. held the largest amount. What interest he had 
 with them I do not know ; and the only way I had of judging of the 
 amount which they held was from the gold that was being loaned in the 
 market. 
 
 Q. How much do you suppose they held at that time ? — A. I suppose 
 they must have held fifty millions, at the very least. 
 
 Q. Did you allow Mr. Fisk to make orders for the purchase, sale, or 
 loan of gold as he pleased, holding you responsible for all such transac- 
 tions, without regard to his own responsibility in the matter ? — A. That 
 is a pretty sweeping question. 
 
 Q. And you can probably answer it sweepingly 1 — ^A. I^To, sir, I can- 
 not answer it. 
 
 Q. To what extent did you give Mr. Fisk authority to buy, sell, or 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 301 
 
 loan gold for which you were to be responsible 1 — ^A. I don't think I 
 ever gave him any such order to loan gold. I know I gave him some 
 authority to buy, but what it was I do not know. 
 
 Q. Did you give it to him in writing, or verbally 1 — A. I could not 
 state. 
 
 Q. Tou cannot state whether you wrote him a letter to loan gold foi 
 you? — A. I do not remember any. 
 
 Q. Tou don't think you wrote such a letter ? — ^A. That is my impres- 
 sion. 
 
 Q. Did he, as a niatter of fact, order the purchase of any gold on your 
 account 1 — ^A. That I do not know. 
 
 Q. Was any purchase reported to you as having been made by his 
 order on your account ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. By whom ? — A. By Speyers. 
 
 Q.. To what amount f — A. T6 a very large amount ; I don't know how 
 much ; so large that I never acknowledged it. 
 
 Q. How did you treat the transaction ? — ^A. It is not settled yet. I 
 think I declined to do anything about it. 
 
 Q. How did you treat it at the time it was reported ? — A. It was not 
 reported at once ; it was some days before he reported it ; I don't recol- 
 lect what I said. 
 
 Q. Did you ever direct him to report to Mr. Smith any of the pur- 
 chases he might make ? — ^A. I don't remember having done so. 
 
 Q. Can you swear that you did not ? — A. It is a very difficult matter 
 to swear that I did not do anything in those days. That is something 
 that I would not have been likely to do. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Boocock report his purchases to you, or to whom did he 
 report them? — A. I presume the purchases he made on my order he re- 
 ported to me. 
 
 Q, Did you acknowledge them ? — A. That I cannot say. 
 
 Q. Were Gould and Pisk in your of&ce during either of the days of 
 tLie panic ?^— A. They were there a day or two before that Friday. 
 
 Q. Let me read a paper to you : 
 
 " Sbptembbe 24, 1869. 
 " JAJMES FiSK, Jr. — Bear Sir : I hereby authorize you to order the 
 purchase and sale of gold on my account, during this day, to the extent 
 you may deem advisable, and to report the same to me as early as pos- 
 sible. It is to be understood that the profits in such order are to belong 
 entirely to me, and I will of course bear any loss resulting. Tours, 
 
 " WILLIAM BELDEK" 
 
 Did you write that letter ? — ^A. I don't remember having written any 
 such letter. 
 
 Q. Did you authorize anybody to write such a letter as that for you ? — 
 A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see that letter before ? — ^A. I remember something 
 said about a letter ; I think, to be positive about it, I should have to see 
 it ; if the letter was shown me, I could say whether it was mine or not. 
 
 Q. Have you seen Mr. Pisk within the past three weeks'? — ^A. I 
 have. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Pisk say anything to you in regard to that letter within 
 the last three weeks 1 — ^A. I do not think he has. 
 
 Q. Has anybody representing Mr. Pisk, or acting for him, said any- 
 thing to you in regard to this letter, or any such letter, within the last 
 three or four weeks ? — A. I saw what I presume is the same thing pub' 
 Ushed in the papers, and it occasioned some talk : that is about all. 
 
302 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Before Pisk came on here and gave Ms testimony, did he, or any- 
 body for him, talk with or communicate with you concerning such a 
 letter as that ?— A. E^o, sir. 
 
 Q. State, as positively as you can, the history of that letter, if you 
 know anything about it. — A. I think I have said all I know about it. 
 
 Q. Do you think you would be likely to give any man such a sweep- 
 ing authority as that over your affairs 1 — A. If you will imagine the 
 circumstances, you will understand why I could not tell positively what 
 was done. 
 
 Q. Do you think it possible you could have given an order of that 
 kind, in writing, without remembering it definitely and distinctly ? — A. 
 These were days of very great and extraordinary excitement, and it is 
 several months since. 
 
 Q. Have you ever written such a letter as that, since the days of the 
 panic ? — A. I don't think I have ever written any such letter. 
 
 Q. Can you swear you did not write this letter after the facts had all 
 transpired, that is, after the breakdown, and post-date it? — ^A. I never 
 wrote a letter in my life and post-dated it, to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. You can swear, then, positively, that you did not write this letter 
 after the date it bears 1 — ^A. I think I have already stated that I do not 
 remember having written any such letter. 
 
 Q. Did you ever sign this letter, or a similar letter, addressed to James 
 Pisk, jr. ? — A. As I have said already, these were days of such excite- 
 ment that I cannot undertake to swear what I did or did not do. If the 
 letter was before me I could state whether I wrote it or not. 
 
 Q. Do you believe there is in existence a letter with your own sign 
 manual, which you put to it, such as this I have read ? — A., If it were 
 shown to me I could answer the question ; I have seen parties mistaken 
 when they have been very positive, indeed, so often, that, as I said be- 
 fore, if anything I have done is brought to me, I can give a positive an- 
 swer, but not otherwise. 
 
 Q. What is the best of your belief about it? — A. I would not like to 
 give an opinion about it. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Do you state, to the best of your knowledge and belief, that you 
 never wrote nor authorized such a letter ? — ^A. I would lilce to give a 
 clear and explicit answer about it. My impression is that Mr. Pisk is 
 mistaken, if he thinks he has such a letter. 
 
 By the Chairmajst : 
 
 Q. Is it your impression that he is mistaken if he thinks that you ever 
 wrote or signed, or authorized such a letter? — A. I do not know what 
 you want to get at ! I don't want to state directly that Mr. Pisk is 
 entirely mistaken in the matter, because I might be mistaken. I don't 
 think Mr. Pisk ever had such a letter. That is my impression. 
 
 Q. Did you say to Mr. Speyers, on the occasion of your going into the 
 room, where you met Mr. Pisk and some other gentleman, " Mr. Pisk, 
 this is Mr. Speyers ; we are all one family ; any order Mr. Pisk may give 
 you will be all right ?"— A. I don't remember ever having made a remark 
 about any family relation at all. 
 
 Q. I mean that you were in one line — that you understood each other's 
 movements. — A. I never said so. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Pisk give Mr. Speyers any orders, so far as you know or 
 believe ?— A. I think it is likely that he did. 
 
 Q. Were you responsible for the results of these orders yourself? — 
 
 A That T do not, know. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 303 
 
 Q. The committee must know, as far as you can tell them, what these 
 transactions of Mr. Speyers were; by whose orders they were given ; 
 the circumstances, and what your understanding was of these trans- 
 actions. — A. Mr. Speyers did an enormous amount of business. I don't 
 think any broker is justified, upon any order, to go to the extent which 
 he did. There is a limit in everything. 
 
 Q. What orders did you give Speyers as to the amount and limit of 
 his purchases ? — A. That I do not remember at all. 
 
 Q. Did you give him any order ? — ^A. That 1 could not tell you ; I do 
 not know. I cannot remember what order I gave him, if any. 
 
 Q. You don't mean to say that you don't remember whether you gave 
 him any order on auy day of the week of the panic 1 — A. I remember 
 giving Speyers orders frequently before Friday ; I probably gave him 
 orders frequently before then ; I thought you referred to that day. 
 
 Q. How large an order did you give on Monday, if any ?— A. That I 
 do not know. 
 
 Q. How large on Tuesday ? — A. I can only say that he operated for 
 me during the week, and took up probably five millions of gold pre- 
 vious to Friday. 
 
 Q. On your order? — ^A. I believe so. 
 
 Q What instructions did you give him as to the amount and rate ? — 
 A. That I do not remember; that would have depended upon the market 
 price. 
 
 Q. How much did you order him to buy during any days of the week 
 previous to Friday? — ^A. As a general thing, I presume I limited him as 
 to amount and price. I think I always limited him as to price. As to 
 amount, it is very probable that I may have told him to keep gold at 36, 
 36J, or 37. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by keeping gold at any given figure 1 — A. To 
 take what is offered at that price. 
 
 Q. In other words, you gave an illimitable order to buy as long as it 
 could be bought at that price ? — A. It might literally mean that ; but no 
 broker would understand, if he was told to keep gold at a certain figure, 
 that he was to buy a fabulous amount ; such an amount as we could 
 uever pay for or take care of at all. 
 
 Q. Did Speyers report to you from day to day his purchases for you 
 previous to Friday ? — ^A. He did. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Fisk, in your office on the 23d, in presence of Mr. Smith, 
 tell Mr. Speyers to buy quickly two millions and report to Belden ? — A. I 
 lio not know anything about it. I do not think, in the first place, that 
 Fisk or Gould was in my office on the 23d; I am pretty certain they 
 were not. 
 
 B. Did you, on that day, anywhere introduce Speyers to Smith or 
 &ould or Fisk?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you, on or before the 23d of September, introduce him to Mr. 
 Fisk, Mr. Gould being present? — ^A. I remember bringing him into my 
 office when they were there ; whether I introduced him or not I do not 
 know. I think they both knew him. 
 
 Q. What did you bring him into your office for?— A. I think I brought 
 him there to buy gold. 
 
 Q. What did you say to him there?— A. I don't remember having 
 said anything ; if I did, I don't remember it. 
 
 Q. How do you know, then, that you brought him there to buy gold, 
 if you do not remember to have said anything to him ? — A. I merely 
 remember the fact that I took him there, and I suppose I brought him 
 there for that reason. 1 don't remember anything about it. 
 
304 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Can you swear that you didn't give him general orders to buy gold, 
 or that Mr. Pisk didn't have you give him general orders to buy gold ?— 
 A. No, sir, I cannot swear that. 
 
 Q. Can you swear that Mr. Fisk or yourself, or both of you, did not 
 give him orders to buy gold? — ^A. I don't remember what took place ; I 
 was busy, and don't know what Mr. Fisk or Mr. Gould may have 
 done. 
 
 Q. Let me . read you this passage: " On the 24th ImetBelden; he 
 said, 'Come with me to Heath's office; this will be the last day of the gold- 
 room; we have got over 110,000,000 of claims, and we can buy all the 
 gold the government dares to seU.' " Is that a correct statement? — A. I 
 should say not. ' 
 
 Q. Can you swear that it is not a correct statement ? — A. I can state 
 that I don't believe I ever said anything of the kind. 
 
 Q. I read again : " I met Belden at Heath's'office, and he said, 'Pisk 
 and Gould want to put all the trouble on our shoulders, as they refuse 
 to give margins.'" That was after the breakdown. Is that statement 
 true? — A. I don't remember it at all. 
 
 Q. I read again: " Belden said, 'You know, Speyers, you made all your 
 purchases for me.' I said, 'Belden, that is all nonsense ; you told me 
 aU the time that these transaction were for Smith, Gould & Martin, Fisk, 
 and others.' " Is that true or false ? — ^A. I remember something about 
 Speyers having said he bought for somebody else. I told him that, so far 
 as I knew, all the gold he bought was for me ; that I did not know any- 
 thing about anybody else. 
 
 Q. State to the committee, as near as you remember, your transactions 
 in gold, whether for yourself or others, or for yourself through others, 
 during the week of the panic. — A. As I have said before, previousto 
 the Friday I bought about twenty millions of gold ; on Friday the con- 
 fusion was so great that I cannot tell what gold I bought, for the reason 
 that I do not know what gold I ought to take, or what I ought not to 
 take. There were so many different prices, so many brokers running 
 about and claiming that they had made contracts, that I was bewildered 
 and could not tell anything about it. I was nearly the whole day on 
 Friday endeavoring to make up my clearing for Thursday, at the gold 
 clearing-house, and for that reason I had no time to pay attention to 
 anything else. I didn't know even what the price of gold was. I learned 
 from time to time ; but the information I had might have been old by 
 the time I got it. I was trying to get worked up at the clearing-house 
 for the day before. That was my great effort on Friday. I devoted my- 
 self entirely to the settlements of that day, and did not attend to any- 
 thing else. I neglected aU my stock business, and everything else, and 
 tried to get that statement completed. I finaUy had to give it up, be- 
 cause the Gold Exchange Bank didn't know whether they could take my 
 statement or not. 
 
 Q. At what time in the day on Friday did you leave WaU street ?— A. 
 I think it may have been between two and three o'clock. 
 
 Q. With whom did you leave? — A. I went up town with Gould and 
 Fisk. 
 
 Q. Where did you go ?— A. To the Erie office. 
 
 Q. What was said between you three persons concerning the move- 
 ments in gold on that day ? — ^A. I don't know that I can recall any fea- 
 ture of the conversation. 
 
 Q. What in your opinion was the cause of the breakdown that day?— 
 A. I was utterly at a loss to know what the cause was. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Gould give his opinion as you were going up town ; if so, 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 305 
 
 what did he say about it? — ^A. If' he gave any reason, I don't remember 
 what his idea was. 
 
 Q. What was Mr. Fisk's opinion? — ^A. I do not remember. 
 
 Q. Was that the subject of your talk on the way up, and after you 
 got to the Erie office ? — A. I presume we must have talked of it all the 
 time, but I don't remember what was said; of course, Wall street was 
 ia such a state of excitement that I did not know what was going on. 
 
 Q. Were there any threats of personal violence to yourself or Mr. 
 Pisk in Wall street before you left? — A. Not particularly. There was a 
 good deal of loud talk. 
 
 Q. Did you go out through the usual passage ? — A. I remember going 
 over to t^e office of Mr. Heath, where Gould and Fisk were, for the 
 purpose of trying to get some help to get my settlement ready. 
 
 Q. What help did you ask for 1 — A. I wanted some kind of assistance. 
 The price of gold had changed so that I could not make my settlement 
 at all. I supposed they would take an interest in the price being kept 
 up. K I could not get my settlement completed it would bring trouble 
 upon them ; and I went over to see what could be done. 
 
 Q. What did you ask them to do ? — I don't know what I did ask them 
 to do. I think very likely that I might have stated what my trouble 
 was. 
 
 Q. Did they offer you any help ? — ^A. My impression is that they did 
 make an arrangement to take some of my gold ; the arrangement was 
 not consummated, however, and I could not say whether they really 
 did make it or not ; I think they did. 
 
 Q. Do you know of their having at any time taken a part of Speyers's 
 sales, in order to settle balances, one or two days before the break- 
 down ? — A. It seems to me I recollect that Speyers was talking with me 
 once about them ; what was done I do noj; know. 
 
 Q. That was gold which Speyers bought on your order ? — A. I do not 
 know ; we had so much gold, and had so much to do to take care of our- 
 selves, that I did not take much notice of what was said. 
 
 Q. What were you buying this gold for ? — ^A. To sell to others. 
 
 Q. Expecting a rise in price ? — ^A. I was not so confident about a 
 great rise in price ; I never expected to see gold go very high ; I was, I 
 presume, as much astonished as anybody could have been to see it go 
 up to 160 ; the " short" interest on the streut was enormous, I suppose; 
 from what I saw going on. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any difficulty with Mr. Boocock in settling 
 your transactions with him? — ^A. They are not settled yet. I have en- 
 deavored to get a statement from Mr. Boocock ; I have asked him for 
 it, and have demanded it of him, but have not yet succeeded. 
 
 Q. Did you buy, sell, or loan any gold for Mr. Fisk, or Mr. Gould, or 
 any of their firm ? — A. I bought some gold for Mr. Gould earlier in the 
 week, I think ; but afterward, when we all got so busy, I took that 
 gold myself, so that I may say it was all for me. 
 
 Q. At what time was it that you took that for yourself? — A. My im- 
 pression is that it was about Thursday. I never reported any purchases 
 to anybody after Wednesday. 
 
 Q. Up to that time you had been reporting ? — ^A. I never made any 
 report that I recollect. I remember that Mr. Pisk gave me some orders, 
 but I don't remember having made any report to him. 
 
 Q. Did you expect to settle all these purchases of gold you made 
 from Speyers, Boocock and others, and which were made by Fisk and 
 others for you? — ^A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. Why did you not do it ? 
 H -^ - -~ 
 
306 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Witness. In what way have I not done it? 
 
 Chairman. I understand you to say they are not settled. 
 
 A. It is impossible for me to determine in my own mind satisfactorily 
 as to whether these large purchases of gold were made in a bona fide 
 manner or not. 
 
 Q. Are there, or not, large sums due you, or due from you, in conse- 
 quence of these transactions, as you understand it; if so, what amount?— 
 A. We have not arrived at any adjustment or settlement whatever of 
 Friday's transactions ; until that is done, it wiU be impossible to say 
 what amount. 
 
 Q. Have you never made any statement to your sureties in regard to 
 these transactions ? — A. No, sir. . 
 
 Q. Have you not filed in bankruptcy a statement of your assets ?— 
 A. I have filed in bankruptcy a statement that is incomplete, and that 
 I may now complete, and shall complete whenever I can get the state- 
 ment jnade up. 
 
 Q. What was the amount of assets you filed? — ^A. I do not know; 
 there were large numbers of gold contracts. 
 
 Q. Amounting to about how much? — A. I do not know; as I said, 
 the statement is not yet complete. 
 
 Q. So far as it has gone, how much does it amount to ? — A. I did not 
 foot it up ; at the time I made application I got permission to complete 
 it at as early a day as possible, and until I get it figured up I cannot 
 tell. 
 
 Q. Did you ever clear your transactions of that week from the clear- 
 ing-house f — ^A. I believe they were all cleared up to Friday. 
 
 Q. What was the amount of your clearings for Thursday ? — A. I sup- 
 pose it might have been ten millions. 
 
 Q. Do you know how much^our clearings would have been for Fri- 
 day, if they had been settled ? — A. Possibly — no, I could not tell. 
 Upon reflection, I do not think Thursday's clearings could have been so 
 large. 
 
 Q. Why did you not make them on Friday ? — ^A. The price of gold 
 fluctuated so rapidly that I could not get the statement written out ; it 
 was physically impossible to write it out. 
 
 Q. Why were not your clearances made subsequent to Friday ? — A. 
 I had sent a partial statement to the Gold Exchange Bank, but it was 
 thrown out. Then parties would refuse to take gold I had sold to them, 
 and I could not tell anything about it. The fact is we got into such a 
 muss that we have never been able to get out of it. 
 
 Q. Were you at the Erie ofiiee on the night of the 23d, before the 
 breakdown ? — A. I think I was ; I often went up there. 
 
 Q. Please state to the committee a proposition which was made there 
 that evening to publish in the newspapers the next morning the condi- 
 tion of gold in Wall street, stating who were short, and how much, and 
 proposing that they should settle during the next day. — ^A. I believe 
 that Mr. Fisk proposed, to avoid the confusion the next day which was 
 anticipated, to show the merchants and others who were gold specula- 
 tors, who had been selling large amounts short, (for very few had been 
 buying as much as they sold,) to prevent their coming into the market 
 and selling, nobody knew how much ; he proposed to tell them that we 
 would sell to them, or settle with them at a fair price. I was not will- 
 ing to accede to that proposition. 
 
 Q. Why not?— A. Because I was not willing to make my affairs 
 public. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 307 
 
 Q. Did you say that there ?— A. I probably objected to the proposi- 
 tion. 
 
 Q. Did anybody else object to it besides you ? — A. I do not remember 
 of any other broker being there. 
 
 Q. What did Mr. Gould say about it ?-^A. I do not remember what 
 he said. 
 
 Q. Was anything said that it would be a conspiracy under the laws 
 of Ifew York ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was an attorney or counsel called in to give any opinion on that 
 point ? — ^A. Not so far as I know. 
 
 Q. What was the course finally thought best to take in lieu of that 
 plan? — ^A..I do not know of any at all. 
 
 Q. Was there any other plan discussed than that ? — A. I do not know 
 that that was discussed particularly ; I know Mr. Fisk proposed it, and 
 I know I told him I did not care to exhibit my business. If there was 
 any consultation, I was not the person consulted. I do not know who 
 should have consulted with me about what I should do. I should do 
 what I pleased. 
 
 Q. Were you a party to any suits, injunctions, or orders of the court in 
 regard to any settlement ■?— A. Not at all ; not one of them. 
 
 Q. Have you yet settled your accounts with the Gold Exchange 
 Bank ? — A. I do not think I have anything open at the bank. 
 
 Q. Are you now continuing business as a broker 1 — A. I am not in 
 active business just at this moment. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of any oflcer of the government of the 
 United States being interested in, or taking any part in, the gold move- 
 ment of that week or month ? — A. I have no information whatever. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Gorbin ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you see him during the week of the panic ? — A. I do not re- 
 member having seen him. I might have met him. ; I never exchanged 
 a word with him about gold. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. What did you talk with Mr. Corbin about? — ^A. No business trans- 
 action at all. 
 
 Q. Have you seen Mr. Fisk or Mr. Gould since they gave testimony 
 before this committee ?-^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. And conversed with them or either of them in regard to their tes- 
 timony before this committee? — A. I think I said something to Mr. Fisk 
 about his. We did not hold any conversation. I only saw him for a 
 moment. I have only seen Mr. Gould to bow to him. 
 
 Q. Did you say anything to him about this letter that was spoken of 
 in his testimony? — ^A. I do not remember. All I rememuer was that I 
 thought he had done very wrong in talking to the reporters as he did. 
 
 Q. Had you then seen what the papers said about his testimony? — 
 A. I had been very sick, confined to my bed, and I did not read much. 
 
 Q. Did you read that letter? — A. I do not remember whether I read 
 it or whether my attention was called to it. I read it or heard it read 
 one day. 
 
 By Mr. JoNES : 
 
 Q. Do you know of any gold being purchased by any ofllcer of the gov 
 ernment, or any of their families, or either of them? — ^A. I do not know 
 anything whatever. 
 
 Q. Who are your partners in business? — A. Andrew McKinley and 
 George W. Hooker. Neither of them knew anything at all about the 
 
308 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 gold business. In fact they did not take a very active part in business, 
 either of them. 
 
 Q. Were they not interes}ied with you in your commissions and pur- 
 chases of gold? — A. I suppose they were, but I did not consult them. ] 
 did just as I chose to do entirely without any consultation whatever. 
 
 By the Chaieman: 
 
 Q. Are not they responsible for the general results of your transac 
 tions?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you have a telegraph wire from your office connecting with the 
 Brie ofllce? — ^A. I did, and have had for a long time. 
 
 Q. Have you not stated repeatedly since this gold movement began 
 that you were interested with Mr. Fisk in it? — ^A. ISTo, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you never stated that? — ^A. It is not my habit at all to state 
 who is interested with me or with any one of what goes on in my office. 
 
 Q. Have you ever stated it at all? — A. I do not remember ever having 
 said so. 
 
 Q. Who is Mr. Hooker, your partner? — ^A. He is a brother-in-law of 
 Mr. Fisk. 
 
 Q. Did you ev^r give any testimony before the arbitration committee 
 of the Gold Board relating to these transactions? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Were you ever summoned before them? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you ever been summoned to give testimony before any court 
 in regard to these transactions? — ^A. I was summoned by the grand 
 jury. 
 
 Q. Are you willing your testimony before the grand jury should be 
 made a part of your testimony here; is it testimony that you will swear 
 to as the truth, to come in as a part of this statement? — A. It is the 
 truth whatever I said. 
 
 Q. Have you seen it as printed? — A. I think not. I do not think it 
 will give you any facts that you haven't here. 
 
 Q. When you ordered Speyers to buy gold and he raised some question 
 about your ability to protect him in so large an amount, to whom did 
 you refer him as standing behind you who would back you in your pur- 
 chases? — ^A. You have supposed a case that did not exist. You have 
 supposed something that did not take place. 
 
 Q. Did Speyers at any time raise the question as to your ability to 
 protect him in all the transactions done for you? — A. Speyers always 
 solicited business from me and never hesitated a moment when I gave 
 him an order, and never asked me a question about money matters. 
 
 Q. Did he ever talk to you about a margin? — A. Never. 
 
 Q. Do you know that he, on having margins demanded of him, gave 
 up his principals? — ^A. I suppose he did a great many things. I have 
 heard he did this. I do not know. 
 
 By Mr. Packer: 
 
 Q. Did you give orders for the purchase of this five millions of gold 
 personally to Speyers, or did you do it through another person? — ^A. As 
 near as I can recollect I gave them myself. 
 
 Q. You think you did not give these orders through Mr. Fisk? — A. I 
 think I gave them myself. It is possible Mr. Fisk may have given them. 
 I do not remember. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. Was Speyers much excited that Friday ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 Q. Did you see him around the street and the gold-room? — ^A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 309 
 
 Q. Can you give the committee a descriptiou — a sort of photograph of 
 his appearance?— A. I do not think that is my forte. 
 
 Q. Had he the appearance of a man being perfectly wild that day in 
 the gold-room?— A. I think he gave that impression to a great many. 
 
 Q. Did he to yon? — ^A. I do not think I was impressed with his steadi- 
 ness. He was more excited than I ever saw a broker before. 
 
 By Mr, Packer: 
 
 Q, Did you give orders to Speyers to buy, personally, or did you tell him 
 he might take his orders from Mr. Fisk?— A, I gave him no order on 
 Friday at all. 
 
 Q. When he purchased this five millions, what order did you give 
 him?— A. I think certainly not to go above 44. My impression is that 
 the orders I gave him were not to go above about 37. 
 
 Q. You stated that you at one time had a partnership with Mr. Fisk. 
 At what time was that and in what business? — A. In the banking and 
 brokerage business for about four years previous to the spring of '68, 
 
 Q, Had he any interest in your firm in September '69? — A, No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Jones: 
 
 Q, What was the result of this whole movement upon the brokers of 
 WaUstreet; didtheymakemoney, anyof them, outof it? — ^A. Isuppose 
 some made and some lost. I do not know what the result was. 
 
 Q. As these immense transactions have never been closed up, I sup- 
 pose the brokers generally — ^the bulls and bears — stand about as they 
 did when the thing began, do they not? Do you know of any parties 
 who made largely?— A. No, sir 5 I do not think any one made any money 
 of dny consequence out of it. 
 
 Q. Did you make any? — ^A. No, sir; I did not realize adoUar from it 
 
 Washington, D. C, January 29, 1870. 
 
 Daniel Butteepield sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman: * 
 
 Question. State your place of residence and occupation. — ^Answer. I 
 reside in New York. I am an officer in the army. 
 
 Q. What is your rank? — A. Colonel, and brevet major general. 
 
 Q. State what was your occupation in the months of August and Sep- 
 tember last? — ^A. I was assistant, treasurer of the United States in the 
 city of New York. 
 
 Q. What was the date of your appointment and the date of your resig- 
 nation? — A. I was appointed somewhere about the 1st of July. I think 
 I entered on the duties of the office on the 1st of July. The date of my 
 resignation I cannot state without referring to my correspondence. It 
 was some time in the m.onth of October. My resignation was not ac- 
 cepted, and I came on to Washington to press its acceptance, and I was 
 finally relieved on or about the 15th of November. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with the general course of gold during the 
 month of September last? — ^A. I was generally. 
 
 Q. From your knowledge of general business transactions in New York, 
 what was the cause of the extraordinary rise in gold during the month 
 of September? — A. Speculation. 
 
 Q. The course was artificial and not natural? — ^A. Entirely so. 
 
 Q. Do you know what persons were the managers of the speculative 
 
310 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 movement? — A. Only by general report. It was pretty well understood. 
 I do not know of my own knowledge, but I know sufficiently well to con- 
 vince me from what information and conversation that came before me 
 from time to time. 
 
 Q. While you were assistant treasurer at New York, did you ever re- 
 ceive orders from any officer of the government at Washington to sell 
 gold? — A. Jiist before the 1st of every month. 
 
 Q. How were those orders communicated to you? — A. With the ex- 
 ception I will note, they were communicated by mail. The orders would 
 be found on my table on Monday morning when I would goto my ofttce, 
 signed by the Secretary himself, with a letter marked "Private," and 
 inclosed in an envelope marked " Private and personal," addressed to 
 myself. I would most always receive these orders for the monthly pro- 
 • gramme on Monday morning. I spoke to the President and to the Sec- 
 retary of the Treasury requesting that any orders coming to me affecting 
 values in any way should be always given to the public through the As- 
 sociated Press before they were given to me. This course caused me to 
 know what the orders were by the telegram in the Monday morning 
 newspapers. The exceptional order was the telegraphic order which 
 came on- the 24th of September to sell $4,000,000 of gold. That came 
 by telegraph about 12 o'clock. 
 
 Q. State your mode of executing those orders, usually. — A. When- 
 ever any order, or any direction whatever, came from the Secretary of 
 the Treasury, I immediately wrote out the substance of the order and 
 direction in full, signed my name to it, and had it posted plainly on the 
 bulletin outside my door, simply saying that by order of the Secretary 
 of the Treasury the Treasury will sell so much gold and purchase so 
 many bonds during the month. The notice was brief first, so as to give 
 promptly the whole information. I would then take it up in detail, and 
 prepare the advertisements for the press, saying that, by order of the Sec- 
 retary, I would, during the month, sell every week so much gold, and, as 
 the order might specify, on alternate Wednesdays and Fridays, or what- 
 ever day it might be, would buy so many bonds. The advertisement 
 would appear in the newspapers that afternoon. 
 
 Q. State whether you received any communication from the Secretary 
 of the Treasury, or from any other officer of the government, during the 
 month of September, on the subject of the sale of gold, i^revious to the 
 telegram of which you have spoken ? — ^A, None, other than the regular 
 orders which have been made public. \ 
 
 Q. You have stated that you received a telegraphic order from the 
 Secretary of the Treasury on the 24th of September to sell $4,000,000 
 of gold. Was that in cipher ? — ^A. No. 
 
 Q. Have you a copy of that order with you ? — A. I have not. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect the words of it ? — A. The substance of it was, 
 "You will announce that you will sell $4,000,000 of gold and purchase 
 $4,000,000 of bonds on Saturday, or Monday," (I do not recollect which.) 
 
 Q. At what precise hour of the day did you receive that message ?— 
 A., It would not vary five minutes, I think, from twelve o'clock. I think 
 I entered it on the dispatch itself in the office. There were quite a 
 number of people there when it was received. 
 
 Q. Who brought that dispatch to you ? — A. I do not know ; a tele- 
 graph messenger. 
 
 Q. Where were you when it was received ? — A. Sitting in the assist- 
 ant treasurer's office. 
 
 Q. Who was present at the time the order was received ? — A. I think 
 Mr. Hutton was present, and I think Mr. Garland, one of the leading 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 311 
 
 men of the house of Jay Cook & Co., was present. My doorkeeper, Mr. 
 Cordray, was also present, and there were numbers of other gentlemen 
 present and going in and out. I do not remember who they were. They 
 were business men, some of them men who offered bonds to the govern- 
 ment, and had business at the treasury. I know their faces, and can 
 probably ascertain the names of half a dozen or more of them who were 
 present in the ofBce. 
 
 Q. Was the message brought to you by the ordinary messenger 1 — 
 A. A star as I recollect, it was brought by the ordinary messenger. 
 
 Q. Had you any knowledge, du'ect or indirect, before the receipt of 
 that message that such a message was to come ? — A. Only a suspicion 
 that it would come, from a dispatch that I had sent. 
 
 Q. What dispatch had you sent ? — A. On the morning of that day, 
 when I came to the offlce, there were several gentlemen there who stated 
 to me what the price of gold was and the condition of affairs in Wall 
 street, and they said, moreover, that there were accusations of govern- 
 ment complicity ; that I was accused of being a party to the specula- 
 tion ; that the Secretary of the Treasury and the President were also 
 accused : and they asked me if I did not think it wise to advise the Sec- 
 retary of the condition of affairs. I assented, and sent a dispatch to the 
 Secretary of the Treasury something like this : " The price of gold this 
 morning at such an hour is so and so, (150 perhaps;) there are open 
 accusations of government complicity; I would recommend some 
 measures." What they were I do not now recollect. I think the accept- 
 ance of some propositions made by some business firms in my dispatch 
 to the Secretary will give the facts. 
 
 Q. At what hour was that dispatch sent! — A. When I arrived at the 
 ofilce, about 10 o'clock in the morning. Then, again, in half an hour or 
 three-quarters of an hour afterward, some of the gentlemen who were 
 present when I sent the dispatch, or who knew of its having been sent, 
 would come in to see if any reply had been received. That is the way 
 that they happened to be there when the reply did come. I would tele- 
 graph to the Secretary, for instance, that at 11 a. m. the price of gold is 
 155 ; then at 11.20, for instance, information would come in that the 
 price of gold was 160, and I would telegraph to the Secretary, " 11.30 — 
 price of gold, 160." Thus 1 sent him three or four dispatches that morn- 
 ing. As the price changed from time to time, I gave him the informa- 
 tion. 
 
 By Mr. JoNES: 
 
 Q. You said that certain persons came to you from the street and told 
 you the price of gold, and that there were genera) charges of the com- 
 plicity of the government in the matter. Who were those persons? — 
 A. I will not be positive. I should make explanation as to my being in 
 that position. When I went into the office I was determined that every- 
 thing should be public. I would not allow my door to be closed. I had 
 no private interviews with anybody nor private information for any- 
 body; that saved me a good deal of trouble. People were often coming 
 to the office to know what was to be done. I told Mr. Boutwell the first 
 time I met him that he would relieve me from great embarrassment if 
 he would never give me an order which the public did not know before- 
 hand, as then I should be free from any accusation of using it for my 
 own benefit. Thus, when I made any purchases or sales on my own ac- 
 count, I did it on the same basis as anybody else. I suppose that fifty 
 people came into my oflce that day to ask me if there were any orders 
 to sell gold. If my memory is correct, Mr. William E. Vermilye, or Mr. 
 Hutton, or some of those who called, said that there were accusations 
 
312 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 of governmeut complicity spoken in Wall street ; that had been inti- 
 mated to me before. 
 
 By the Chaibman: 
 
 Q; Have you completed the statement of dispatches which you sent 
 to the Secretary of the Treasury that morning ? — A. Yes ; and I will 
 furnish the dispatches themselves. 
 
 Q. State to the committee what you did on the receipt of the message 
 from the Secretary. — A. When the message came in there were several 
 . gentlemen present. I supposed that the message was from the Secre- 
 tary. I sat behind my table, these gentlemen in Ixont. I took the mes- 
 sage, opened it, put ray hand before it, took a sheet of paper this way. 
 (indicating,) and wrote — "Notice: By order of the Secretary of the 
 Treasury, the assistant treasurer will sell $4,000,000 of gold and pur- 
 chase $4,000,000 of bonds" on such a day, or words to that effect. I 
 signed it, gave it to the doorkeeper, and said: " Put that on ihe bul- 
 letin." I then offered the dispatch for examination to all iDresent, or 
 read it, after which they generally left the office. 
 
 Q. At the moment of reading that dispatch, had gold broken in the 
 market or not 1 — A. I think ib had broken about five minutes before 1 
 got that dispatch. I think that Mr. Wm. Seligman, or some other gen- 
 tleman, I cannot state positively who, walked in and said : " Gentlemen, 
 gold is 139," or 35, or some such figures. That was just before or at the 
 moment the dispatch was received. I wrote to the Secretary afterward 
 that the price of gold had fallen before I got his dispatch, and I 
 suggested that somebody had tapped the wires or had got hold of the 
 information in some shape. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge, direct or indirect, of any person or per- 
 sons who obtained any news in advance of the sending of that dis- 
 patch ? — A. I have not. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge that the wires were tapped between 
 Washington and New York ? — A. Only from theory and suspicion. 
 
 Q. Have you any reasonable ground to believe that the wires were 
 tapped ? — A. I was told by somebody, 1 do not recollect now who it was, 
 because so many people came into my ofSce telling me so many things, 
 that some of the operators in the street were aware of the telegraph 
 line that the Secretary of the Treasury used for his dispatches, and that 
 they hired an old operator of that line, who knew which the Washing- 
 ton instrument was, who could read by sound, to be in or about the 
 ofiBce, and listen to the dispatches and bring it to them. The story 
 seemed so plausible that I was inclined to credit it. 
 
 Q. Did you make any investigation as to the truthfulness of that 
 story? — A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Did any one else to your knowledge make an investigation? — A. 
 No. 
 
 Q. Was any additional light thrown on that theory? — A. Not by me 
 or by my instrumentality. I informed the Secretary of the Treasury 
 of the fact, and suggested that he should have a cypher for such dis- 
 patches. 
 
 Q. Did you sell gold in accordance with the order ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And bought the bonds?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge that any officer of the goverment of the 
 United States, either in Washington or New York, was in any way con- 
 cerned in or interested in the movement in gold during the month of 
 September ? — A. None whatever. (On reading over his testimony, the 
 witness makes the following note relative to the above answer : " I do 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 313 
 
 not change my reply to this question for two reasons — first, it did not 
 occnr to me when it was put that it applied to myself ; second, it was 
 never any part of my purpose to make a speculation in gold, but to put 
 my bonds on a gold basis, a matter thoroughly understood by bankers.") 
 
 Q. What officers of the government, if any, did you see or converse 
 with in the month of September and before the breakdown concerning 
 the movement in gold?— A. The Secretary of the Treasury. 
 
 Q. Anybody else? — A. I think not. 
 
 Q. When did you see the Secretary of the Treasury? — A. When he 
 passed through jSTew York on his return to Washington from his sum- 
 mer visit home. The Secretary wrote me before he left his home, invit- 
 ing me to dine with him at the Astor House on his arrival in New York. 
 I think the letter said he wished to see me before he saw anybody else. 
 I met him and dined with him that evening. That was my first conver- 
 sation and first meeting with him. I had a long conversation then with 
 regard to all the business of the treasury, and also with regard to the 
 movements of gold. It was in September, and some days before the 
 breakdown. 
 
 Q. State what was the substance of your conversation on that occa- 
 sion with the Secretary in reference to gold ? — A. The substance of my 
 conversation was generally this : " That there were two parties in gold 
 in the street, as nearly as I could get at it from what I had heard and 
 could find out, one a party of railroad men, who put it on the ground 
 that they wanted to get higher price for their transportation, and higher 
 price for grain, to get freights, &c., but I thought they wanted to make 
 a little money without much regard to the farmers, the country, the 
 administration, or anything else ; and on the other side, a great many 
 merchants, who were innocently and without really intending to become 
 speculators in gold, from the necessities of their business ; and then 
 there were brokers, who were betting against the price of gold and sell- 
 ing it short. And I said that the best thing he could do would be to 
 see aU. parties then he could, listen to both sides, hear what both sides 
 had to say, and to take it for granted that both of them wanted to make 
 money ; to make up his mind about his course and to keep it secret, and 
 when he did make orders, to make them so that the whole public would 
 know them at the same time. That I would invite as many prominent 
 gentlemen in Wall street as I could to meet him, and give them an 
 opportunity to talk with him. I did subsequently invite all the bank 
 presidents and leading bankers I could conveniently reach in a brief 
 time to meet him. I think every bank president in the city was asked, 
 and most of them came. That whatever he did I desired he would do 
 so that the public would know it all at the same moment as far as prac- 
 ticable." This conversation occurred at the Astor House. 
 
 Q. On that occasion did you go with the Secretary to A. T. Stewart 1 — 
 A. I did; after dinner. 
 
 Q. Was any conversation had there in reference to gold; if so, state 
 the substance of it ? — A. Yes ; the Secretary and Mr. Stewart had a 
 general conversation. I said to Mr. Stewart, I think, " the Secretary 
 wiU be besieged to sell gold, and he will be besieged <not to sell gold, 
 and he ought to have honest advice on the subject. Now, Mr. Stewart, 
 what is your advice to the Secretary?" I think that was about the con- 
 versation. 
 
 Q. Did you have any other interview with the Secretary of the 
 Treasury previous to the breakdown in gold? — A. Yes; I was invited 
 to dine with the Secretary at the Union League Olub. That was on the 
 first or second day after this meeting at the Astor House. 
 
314 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. State what conversation, if any, occurred between yourself and 
 the Secretary there in reference to the sales of gold ? — A. I had no con- 
 versation with the Secretary. It was a general dinner party, and 
 I avoided engrossing him or occupying him to the prejudice of other 
 gentlemen, whom I thought ought to have an opportunity to talk to him 
 and express their views. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say that you had no conversation with any other 
 government offtcial except the Secretary of the Treasury during this 
 mouth of September in. reference to gold ? — A. I will not be positive as to 
 that with reference to the month of September. On some occasion during 
 the summer, (myimpression is that itwasinAugust,)Iwentup the river to 
 West Point with the President. 1 had a general conversation withthe Presi- 
 dent on all matters pertaining to the Treasury, and incidental to it was 
 a conversation about gold and the sales of gold and the purchase of 
 bonds. It was of a general character, nothing specifically. I think I 
 said to the President that the people in Wall street were all apparently 
 very patriotic, but that most of them wanted to make money, and that 
 whatever they said on either side had to be pretty carefully weighed. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with Jay Gould? — A. I am. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with J. Pisk,jr. ? — A. I am. 
 
 Q. Did you see these gentlemen or either of them during the week of 
 the panic ? — A. I did not see Mr. Fisk, I know. I do not recollect 
 whether I saw Mr. Gould or not. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with them during the week of the 
 panic 1 — A. None whatever. 
 
 Q. Did you send any message to them or receive any message from 
 them ? — A. As I stated, my ofdce was open, and there were at least fifty 
 messengers coming in or out. I did not know whom they came from. 
 Some of them may have come from Mr. Gould or Mr. Fisk, or from any 
 firm or party. I did not know or ask where they came from. 
 
 Q. Did you send any message in writing to either of these gentle- 
 men 1 — A. l^ot to my knowledge. 
 
 Q. Did you send any message in writing to any member of the firm 
 of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. during any of the days of the panic !— 
 A. Not knowingly.' Sometimes a messenger would come in with a sUp 
 of paper on which was written : " Please ask General Butterfield if there 
 are any orders from Washington." The messenger would hand it tome 
 and I would write " No" on it and hand it back. Where the messenger 
 came from I never asked at all. Perhaps I had fifty of them on the day 
 of the panic from as many different people. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Jay Gould, or anybody for him, during the month of Sep- 
 tember or the month of August, previous to the breakdown, buy any 
 gold for you ? — A. Not by my knowledge, consent, authority or advice. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Jay Gould ever say to you that he had bought gold for 
 you, or that he was holding gold for youn account or your profit ? — A. 
 He said once to me that he was going to buy some gold for me. 
 
 Q. State the time ? — A. I cannot recall the date. I have no idea of 
 the date. 
 
 Q. Where was it ? — ^A. I cannot recall that. 
 
 Q. Exactly what did he say ? — A. I think he said : " Had I not 
 better buy some gold for you," or " I wiU buy some gold for you." I 
 cannot recollect which. 
 
 Q. What did you respond ? — A. I made no answer whatever. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any other conversation with him in regard to 
 that matter ?— A. Never. 
 
 Q. Did he ever tell you that he had gold for you, or that he was carry- 
 
GOLD PANIC - INVESTIGATION. 315 
 
 ing gold for you ? — A. He made a claim in writing on tfie Saturday 
 after the panic that he was carrying one and a half millions of gold for 
 me in a pool. 
 
 Q. Have you that in writing?— A. I think I have. 
 
 Q. Did you make any answer to that writing 1 — ^A. I made a verbal 
 answer to the person who brought it. 
 
 Q. What was your answer ? — A. My answer was that there was some 
 mistake about the matter ; that if Mr. Gould had any gold for me, he 
 had it without my authority and without my knowledge, consent or 
 advice; that if he had bought gold for me, he bought it on somebody 
 else's order, and I wanted to know who had taken the authority to give 
 him that order, and all the circumstances about it; and that I would 
 like to see him in regard to it. 
 
 Q. Are you quite sure that there never occurred but one interview 
 between you and Mr. Fisk or Mr. Gould in reference to that matter ? — 
 A. I never exchanged a word on the subject of gold with Mr. Fisk in 
 my life, to the best of my recollection. 
 
 Q. Please state as near as you can recollect everything that occurred 
 between you and Mr. Gould on the occasion of his proposing to buy 
 gold for j^ou, so that we may see as near as possible the whole transac- 
 tion? — A. My impression is, without being positive about it, that we 
 were walking down Fifth avenue together, and our conversation was 
 on railroad and steamboat matters ; and it ran into the general condition 
 of affairs. He said something about that he thought gold would go up, 
 and he asked, or rather he made a remark tendiag to throw out a feeler 
 to me that he had better buy some gold for me. I made no reply. I 
 thought the remark was thrown out to get an opinion from me as to the 
 course of gold which would commit me or commit the government or be 
 used in some way for the ijurpose of speculation. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything further on the subject ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Did that part of the conversation cease utterly at that point ? — A. 
 We parted very shortly afterward, 1 to go down town, and he to go 
 down Twenty-third street. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Gould ever meet you subsequent to that conversation and 
 say, or did he in any way take means to inform you, that he had bought 
 gold for you, that the price had declined, and that he advised you to 
 buy some cheap gold for the purpose of averaging it so as to reduce the 
 loss on the first? — ^A. Never. 
 
 Q. Did he at the time of the first conversation referred to, say any- 
 thing about buying gold for Mr. Oorbin ? — A. Not a word. 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Oorbin ? — A. Very weU. 
 
 Q. Did any conversation ever take place between yourself and Mr. 
 Gould in reference to buying gold for Mr. Oorbin or in reference to Mr. 
 Oorbin buying gold? — A. l^ever. 
 
 Q. Or in reference to his having any transaction in gold? — A. Never. 
 
 Q. (Heading from Mr. Gould's testimony as to General Butterfleld 
 ^ving him an order to buy gold, and as to his advising General Butter- 
 field when the price, of gold went down to buy some cheap gold for the 
 purpose of averaging it.) What have you to say to that statement ? — , 
 A. So far as I am concerned it is false, whoever stated it. 
 
 Q. Did anything of that kind'ever occur between Mr. Gould and any- 
 body else speaking for you, or assuming to speak for you ? — ^A. Never, 
 by my knowledge, authority, advice, consent, connivance, directly or 
 indirectly, in any way whatever. • 
 
 Q. Did your silence, in the first conversation to which you have re- 
 ferred, give Mr. Gould any right to assume your consent to the sugges 
 
316 
 
 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 tion ? — A. Not the slightest. People used all sorts of means to draw- 
 something out of me with reference to what the government was going 
 to do; and I wag constantly, as you may say, skirmished at to express 
 some opinion or to do something, as I supposed, to give ideas for their 
 operations. My desire was to avoid that ; and when I saw or thought 
 a question or a proposition put to me assumed that shape, I kept per- 
 fectly still and said nothing, whenever such a course was possible. 
 
 Q. Why did you not allow Mr. Gould to buy gold for you ? — A. I 
 thought it was an improper thing for a government officer to enter into 
 any transaction that elevated the price of gold, and thereby discre^ted 
 the currency of the government ; and I wholly declined all propositions 
 to purchase gold on that ground. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. When, therefore, Mr. Gould made a proposition to you to buy gold 
 for you, why did you not peremptorily decline it ? — A. I thought it un- 
 necessary to offend anybody^ or to say anything that might be construed 
 into a supposition that I believed, or had any knowledge or information, 
 that gold might go the other way. 
 
 By the Chaikman : 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any conversation with" Mr. Jay Gould in refer- 
 ence to purchasing stock of the Tenth National Bank ? if so, state the 
 time when, and the subject of the conversation. — A. Mr. Gould made 
 a proposition to me at some time, I think before I went into the Treasury, 
 to take some stock in the Tenth National Bank. I told him that I would 
 consider the matter. He sent me an invitation (I do not recollect the 
 time) to meet some parties. I did not attend the meeting, and had no- 
 thing to do with the matter. I made up my mind that it was not right 
 for me to do so, and I did not enter into it. I held no stock in any 
 bank. 
 
 Q. Did you say anything to Mr. Gould, subsequently, communicating 
 your decision? — A. I do not think I did. I do not think the subject 
 ever came up again. It seemed to be dropped. 
 
 Q. When Mr. Gould sent you a statement of your alleged gold 
 account with him, what was the state of that account, in your favor or 
 against you? — A. It was, simply a letter brought to me, stating that he 
 was carrying for my account a million and a half of gold, and that I 
 must either put up a margin with Smith, Martin, Gould & Co., or take 
 the gold and carry it myself. , That was about the substance of it. 
 
 Q. That was after the breakdown? A. I think it was the day after. 
 
 Q. To that you say you made no written response? — A, I made no 
 written response. 
 
 Q. But to the messenger you said what ? — A. That there was s^me 
 mistake about the matter; that if Mr. Gould bought any gold for me 
 he did it without my authority, knowledge, or consent, and that I wanted 
 to understand who had taken the liberty to give him the order to do it. 
 
 Q. Did you receive any answer to that message? — ^A. No, I do not 
 think I did. I never have seen Mr. Gould since. 
 
 Q. Please state to the committee whether you had any other conver- 
 sation with Mr. Gould concerning the course of gold during the months 
 of August and September than that which you have stated ? — A. I think 
 I had. 
 
 Q. How frequently did you meet him during those months? — A. Three 
 or four times. 
 
 Q. Where, generally ? — A. I think he was in my office two or three 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 317 
 
 times. I think I was at his house once. I will not be positive about 
 that, I think I met him in the street once. 
 
 Q. On those occasions was the subject of the sales of gold or the rate 
 of gold discussed? — ^A. Sometimes it was. The discussion was gener- 
 ally on the condition of affairs and the course of finance. I always 
 expressed my opinion that the real value of gold was not more than 120. 
 
 By Mr. Cobubn: 
 
 Q. Had you any communication, written, verbal, by dispatch, or 
 otherwise, with the President of the United States in reference to the 
 sale of gold during September ? — A. l^one whatever. 
 
 Q. Publicly or privately ? — ^A. Publicly or privately, in any way or 
 shape. 
 
 Q. Or mth any member of his family? — ^A. No. 
 
 Q. With no member of his family? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Had you such communication in the month of August with him 
 or with any member of his family or household ? — A. I think that this 
 conversation that I spoke about, on the West Point steamboat, occur- 
 red, possibly, in the month of August. 
 
 Q. Had you any in the month of July ? — ^A. If the month of July 
 was the month when the President was at Long Branch, I may have 
 had some incidental conversation, but it had no direct bearing in any 
 shape, more than a general conversation on policy. I did say to the 
 President at Long Branch that I would be especially obliged if, under 
 any and all circumstances, any information or any orders given to me 
 for the purchase or sale of gold or bonds should be always made known 
 to the public first. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. You say that you never violated that arrangement of yours from 
 the time you took ofilce until you left it, that the public should know 
 everything before any ijrivate person should? — ^A. Never. 
 
 Q. Detail the conversation between A. T. Stewart and the Secretary 
 of the Treasury and yourself with reference to the policy to be pursued 
 in the sale of gold? — A. I think I gave you the whole of it. 
 
 Q. You did not say what Mr. Stewart said to the Secretary. — ^A. I 
 think Mr. Stewart advised the Secretary not to interfere on either side. 
 Mr. Stewart's ideas and my own always agreed upon the subject. If I 
 had been the Secretary of the Treasury I never should have sold a dol- 
 lar of gold. 
 
 Q. He advised him then not to sell at aU? — ^A. Mr. Stewart's reply, 
 I think, was generally, " I should not sell." I think these were about 
 the words he used, " I should not sell, if it were me." 
 
 By Mr. Btjeohakd : 
 
 Q. Perhaps you have seen in the New York papers at that time a 
 statement in reference to a $10,000 check given by Smith, Gould, Mar- 
 tin & Co. to Jay Gould, and by him indorsed to you; was there such a 
 check?— A. There was a $10,000 check. 
 
 Q. What explanation have you to make to the committee in relation 
 to it? — A. It had no connection whatever with gold, and I do not know 
 that this investigation is to go into anything else but the gold question. 
 Still, I should like for the satisfaction of the committee, and without 
 having it made a part of the record, to state the transaction. The thing 
 begins back of my entrance into the Treasury, and is a matter in which 
 my family and private matters are mixed up, indirectly, a little. I have 
 never come forward with any explanation of it; I considered my own 
 
318 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 reputation sufBcieut to shield me from the imputation of being so foolish 
 as to take a bribe of $10,000. Prior to my going into the Treasury, or 
 to there being any such idea, the Erie EaUroad had built, or was building 
 and about to finish, a direct cut-off from their road to make a short Hue 
 to Newburg, New York, which line would make the distance from New 
 York to Newburg, by the Brie road, the same as by the Hudson Jliver 
 j'oad from New York to Fishkill, and would enable the Erie Eailroad 
 Company to run its trains on the same time. My wife's family had a 
 farm of some four hundred and eighty or five hundred acres, some twenty 
 miles above Newburg. I had bought for my brother-in-law the estate 
 of Mr. Astor, within about a mile of that. I owned myself a little farm 
 there, and my wife's brother had married into a family by which his witie 
 was a party in large interest in another large farm there. There were 
 four farms between us ; all looked to me, as having some influence and 
 acquaintance with public men, to promote the west-side railroad, and to 
 do something to aid in benefiting their property. I called on Mr. Gould 
 two or three times, and made him a proposition, when that railroad was 
 completed, to put on a fast steamboat to run from Newburg to Eondont, 
 touching at the docks on the west side of the river, my object being to 
 benefit that property, and setting forth to him the benefit that would 
 accrue to the Erie railroad by making that country up the river for thirty 
 miles tributary to the road. We very nearly came to an understanding 
 that a boat was to be put on. I agreed to put on the boat, provided the 
 Erie road would pay the boat a subsidy, as it would not support itself 
 entirely. That subject was up between us; and the time that Mr. Gould 
 came into my oifice we commenced conversation about that. When I 
 first assumed the duties of my ofl&ce I was very much driven, and had 
 hardly any time to give to anybody, and I endeavored to make all my 
 interviews with everybody as brief as possible. I wanted to organize 
 the ofiice so that I should feel less the burden and great weight of the re- 
 sponsibilities of having so much money in charge, for which myself and 
 bondsmen were responsible, and to organize a system by which I would 
 have more real control and knowledge of it than then existed. I worked 
 sometimes from 9 in the morning to 5 or 6 in the afternoon. That day, ■ 
 when Mr. Gould came in, I had to make a payment the next day on a 
 real estate transaction of $10,000. That thing was on my mind," and I 
 rather wanted to cut short that interview with Mr. Gould, and I said 
 to him, "You wUl have to excuse me, Mr. Gould; I have a good deal to 
 do ; I have to go out and borrow $10,000 for a real estate operation, for 
 which the money will not be in for some little time yet from my own 
 resources." Gould said, "I have plenty of money lying idle, and I will 
 lend you $10,000 with pleasure." I accepted his offer, and he sent me a 
 check for $10,000 within fifteen minutes. I indorsed it and deposited 
 it in my bank. That is the whole history of that transaction. That 
 was early in July. 
 
 Q. Was the conversation that you were then having with him about 
 the steamboat matter ? — ^A. Yes. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You have stated that you gave Mr. Gould no authority to buy 
 gold for you; did you ever give him authority to sell gold for you?— A. 
 No. 
 
 Q. In all that you have said in relation to gold transactions, you cover 
 buying, selling, loaning, and the whole class of transactions that may 
 occur in gold? — A. Yes; as an operation exclusively in gold, and having 
 for its purpose profits from purchases or sales of gold. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 319 
 
 Q. And all your answers iri reference to that subject and your opinions, 
 while you were not engaged iii gold transactions, referred to buying, 
 selling, or loaning gold ? — ^A. Yes. 
 
 ByMr. Jones: 
 
 Q. What was the consideration for that $10,000 check; was it simply 
 a loan? — ^A. Simply a loan. ' 
 
 Q. Without security ? — ^A. Without security. 
 
 Q. Was your note taken? — ^A. No. 
 
 Q. You said you could have borrowed $10,000 from the government; 
 what did you mean by that? — A. I could, if I had chosen to do what I 
 had no business to do. 
 
 By Mr. Judd : 
 Q. Have you paid that 10,000?— A. lifo. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 Q. Were you at any time, while you were assistant treasurer, made 
 aware of the purpose, intention, or policy of the government in reference 
 to selling gold or buying bonds, ia advance of the actual orders re- 
 ceived? — A. No. 
 
 By Mr. JuDD : 
 Q. Did Mr. Gould ever ask you to return this $10,000 ?— A. No. I 
 have never seen him since some time before the 24th of September. 
 
 By Mr. Packer : 
 Q. Has nothing been said about it ? — ^A. No. 
 
 By Mr. SMITH : 
 Q. Did you regard it as a call loan ? — A. Yes. 
 Q. Not a time loan ? — ^A. Not a time loan. 
 
 By the Ohaieman : 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with P. A. Lane ?— A. I have no acquaintance 
 with him other than that he was the messenger who brought that letter 
 from Mr. Gould, which I spoke of, in reference to the alleged purchase 
 of gold. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see him before that time?— A. Never. I did not 
 know him when he came. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything about that transaction to you?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What did he say ?— A. He said he was sent down by Mr. Gould to 
 settle up the matter^ and that I had better settle it, or that the whole 
 thing would be put mto the newspapers. 
 
 Q. Did he say that in the nature of a threat?— A. Not in the nature 
 of a threat of his own ; but rather in the nature of friendly advice of 
 his own, and a threat of others; that I had better make some compro- 
 mise or do something. 
 
 By Mr. Judd : 
 
 Q. What was your reply?— A. My reply was that I should do nothing 
 m the premises, untU I knew the authority and orders he had, and 
 saw the evidence in the matter, and then I would make my decision. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with Joseph Seligman?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Did you give Mr. Seligman, at any time during the month of Sep- 
 tember, before the breakdown, any orders to buy gold?— A. No 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Seligman buy any gold for you, or seU any gold for you 
 
320 
 
 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 or did you give liiiii an order to buy or to sell ? — A. Mr. Seligman bought 
 bonds for me, and he may have bought gold or sold gold in connectioa 
 therewith to put the bonds on what is called a gold basis. If you buy 
 bonds on a currency basis, trusting entirely to the value of the bonds in 
 currency, no gold transaction comes in ; but if you want to purchase bonds 
 on a gold basis here, the custom is to buy a certain amount in bonds, 
 and to sell an equivalent amount in gold, so that you make your trans- 
 action on a gold basis. If you buy your bonds in Europe, you buy a 
 certain amount of gold to cover the purchase there, so as to put them 
 on a gold basis ; that is customary with foreign bankers in dealing in 
 bonds. 
 
 Q. When did Mr. Seligman begin to buy bonds for you ? — A. I do not 
 recollect. I think he bought some bonds for me as early as July. 
 
 Q. What was the total amount he bought for you while you were in 
 the Treasury ? — A. That I cannot tell you without referring to records. 
 
 Q. State it as near as you can. — A. I think he bought as much as 
 three-fourths of a million dollars of bonds for me. 
 
 Q. Was that prior to the week of the panic, or during the week of the 
 panic ? — A. It was some time prior to the week or month of the panic. 
 
 Q. The purchases of which you speak were prior to the week of the 
 panic ? — A. A long time prior. 
 
 Q. Did he come to your ofiQce during the week of the panic ? — A. I 
 cannot say positively that he did, and I cannot say positively that he 
 did not. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether during that week he did or did not buy or 
 sell bonds for you? — A. I do not know without referring to records; but 
 my impression is that he did not buy or sell bonds for me that week. 
 
 Q. (Reading from the testimony of Joseph Seligman, stating that he 
 had sold for General Butterfield during th6 panic week gold to the 
 amount of $700,000.) State concerning what I have read, whether it is 
 true or untrue? — A. That I think may be very nearly correct, and the 
 only person who could make such a statement must be Mr. Joseph SeUg- 
 man himself. 
 
 Q. If that statement was made by Mr. Joseph Seligman, was it a true 
 statement or a false one ? — A. I think it very nearly true. 
 
 Q. How canae Mr. Seligman to sell gold for you ; was it at your ordei 
 or request ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. When did you give him the order ? — A. I cannot say when I gave 
 him the order. I think it must have been the week before the panic. 
 
 Q. Was it given in writing 1 — A. I think not. It may have been. 
 
 Q. Did he come to you of his own accord, or did you send for him ?— 
 A. That I cannot say. 
 
 Q. Did he come to the sub-treasury to see you ? — ^A. He was one of 
 the frequent visitors at the sub-treasury. 
 
 Q. Was it during a visit of his to the sub-treasury that that order 
 of yours to sell gold was given to him by you ? — A. I will not be positive 
 as to that. It is more than likely. 
 
 Q. Did you put up a margin ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Did you have any account with him whereby he was your debtor,- 
 so that he had money of yours in his hands ?— A. We had a running 
 account. 
 
 Q. At the time you gave that order how did that account stand— in 
 your favor or his ? — A. I do not know how it stood. We have a running 
 account in the purchase of bonds and sale of gold. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. Has that account ever been settled? — A. No ; it has not been set- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 321 
 
 tied. It is an open account still. I have made transactions witli Mr. 
 Seligman within a short time. 
 
 Q. What conversation occurred between yourself and Mr. Seligman 
 on the occasion of giving this order touching the course of gold? — A. I 
 do not recollect distiuctly the conversation. I remember the general 
 idea. 
 
 Q. State it as well as you recollect it. — ^A. My impression is that I 
 said to him (what I know was my belief at that time) that I never be- 
 lieved gold to be worth over from 120 to 125; that the then value was 
 fictitious and could not be maintained ; that it was artificial by specula- 
 tion, and that it would certainly fall by its own weight. 
 
 Q. Was this transaction itself settled or approximately settled, so that 
 you know whether you made or lost in the transaction ? — A. No. It was 
 carried into the current account. 
 
 Q. Did he pay you any profits arising out of that transaction? — A. I 
 drew some money from Mr. Seligman on one or two occasions — small 
 amounts that were charged to me m the accounts. They could not be 
 said to have arisen from that transaction. They arose from a general 
 account ais between individuals. I never considered them as coming 
 from that transaction. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. (Beading from the testimony of Joseph Seligman, stating that on the 
 sale of gold General Butterfleld had made about $35,000, which was 
 settled partly in currency and partly in United States bonds, which the 
 firm carried.) Is that statement correct or incorrect? — A. That would 
 make it a correct statement, my drawing a portion of the money and his 
 still carrying bonds for me. That would make it, as I stated, an open 
 account. 
 
 Q. Did you, after the order had been given to Mr. Seligman, send any 
 messages to him during the panic week? — ^A. I do not think I did. 
 
 Q. Did you send word to him to come up and see you? — A. 1 might 
 have done so. 
 
 Q. Did he come up and see you during that week ? — A. Possibly he 
 did. I will state why I am indistinct about that. Mr. Seligman had 
 large transactions with the Treasury. He had an arrangement wjth the 
 Treasury before I went there, made with General Spinner at Washington, 
 for the transfer of currency from California, and for his placing gold in 
 the treasury here and taking it out in California, thus saving the gov- 
 ernment the exj)ense of transportation. Sometimes a transaction of 
 that kind would come up in a shape that I did not understand clearly, 
 and I would send for him to make an explanation. Two or three times 
 these transactions came up in a shape that I would not carry them out 
 till after I telegraphed to Washington about them ; and in that way I 
 frequently sent for him to ask him as to the state of the case, and what 
 correspondence and evidence he had on the point; and he often called 
 on these matters personally. 
 
 Q. In any of these interviews did you converse with Mr. Seligman 
 concerning- the course of gold and concerning your transaction with him, 
 and how it was faring? — ^A. I cannot recoUect now; I may have done 
 so. Mr. Seligman's memory is probably more correct in regard to it. 
 
 Q. Do you regard Mr. Sehgman as a truthful man? — A. I think so; 
 I have every reason to believe so. 
 
 Q. Can you say that you did not have a conversation with him con- 
 cerning your transaction in gold with him during the week of the panic, 
 
 H. Rep. 31 21 
 
322 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 and concerning the probable behavior of gold at that time? — A. I can- 
 not say that I did not. 
 
 Q. If Mr. Seligman should testify that you did would you contradict 
 him? — A. I would not until I knew what he had said. He might mate 
 some statement as to what I said which I would know positively I did 
 not say; but if he should say that I expressed an opinion that gold was 
 not worth more than 120, or that the government would not be able to 
 resist the pressure of public opinion and would be forced to sell gold, 1 
 would believe it to be true. 
 
 (The chairman here read the testimony of Mr. Seligman relating to 
 messages sent to and received from the witness during the panic week.) 
 
 Q. What will you say of these questions and answers ; are they true 
 or false? — A. I think it very likely they are true. I have said to a great 
 many people that although I had no knowledge or information at all, I 
 had no doubt that Mr. Boutwell would continue the policy he had pur- 
 sued right along, of buying bonds and selling gold; I probably said 
 that to Mr. Seligman. 
 
 Q. Under your orders for Mr. Seligman to seU gold did you tell Mm 
 you were selling it for yourself or for anybody else? — ^A. I may have 
 told him I was selling it for my wife. 
 
 Q. Did you so teU him? — ^A. I will not say I did not. I may have 
 said so. 
 
 Q. So far as you recollect what do you think you did in that regard?— 
 A. I will not undertake to state what I said, because I have no positive 
 recollection. 
 
 By Mr. JuDD : 
 
 Q. You state that you received some money from Mr. Seligman grow- 
 ing out of these operations; how much did you receive? — A. I have 
 drawn from him either ten or fifteen thousand dollars. Then Mr. Selig- 
 man has executed some orders for me in Paris. For instance, I sent 
 over to have many articles purchased there. I took a letter of credit 
 from Mr. Seligman on his house in Paris to cover the amount of these 
 purchases, and these amounts are charged to me. I do not know what 
 they are. They extend over considerable time and different amounts. 
 
 Q. Will they amount to thirty-five thousand dollars in the aggre- 
 gate? — A. S'o. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Did you have any business transactions while you were assistant 
 treasurer with Mr. Corbin? — A. IsTone whatever. 
 
 Q. Did you know of any gold having been bought, sold, or loaned, or 
 carried for Mr. Corbin ? — A. No. 
 
 Q. Or for yourself and him jointly ? — A. TSo. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Did you have interviews with Mr. Corbin previous to this panic 
 and during the panic as to the probable policy of the government in 
 relation to selling gold, the state of the market, and all that ? — A. I 
 would state as a general answer to that question that I have known Mr. 
 Corbin some twelve years, and had some business transactions with him 
 about two years ago, as near as I can remember. I formed a business 
 acquaintance with Mr. Corbin in connection with the overland mail 
 stages from St. Louis to San Francisco, and I have seen a good deal of 
 him since then. I have been in the habit of meeting him frequently at 
 his house for years. After I came into the sub-treasury in ISew York 
 Mr. Corbin would talk to me in regard to the policy of the administra- 
 
GOLD -PANIC -INVESTIGATION. 323 
 
 tion, about wliat lie considered that policy was, and what it ought to 
 be ; that it ought to have a better price for gold ; that it ought to have 
 a better price for the crops to help the farmers and make the adminis- 
 tration popular, for all of which he gave his reasons. 
 
 Q. Did he come to you about the time of the panic, or a little before, 
 and endeavor to impress upon you the idea that gold ought to go up, 
 and that the government ought not to hinder it 1 — A. That was the 
 general tone of his conversation whenever we met. 
 
 Q. Did you see him frequently about this time? — A. I should say 
 once or twice within perhaps a fortnight. 
 
 Q. Did he ever endeavor to get you to exercise influence to this end, 
 or to do as much as you could 1 — A. I think the tone of his conversation 
 was intended to impress me with the idea that that was the wisest thing 
 to do, and that I ought to be a convert to his views. I do not think 
 he ever attempted to induce me to exercise any influence, but he endea- 
 vored to impress me with the idea that the policy of the government 
 ought to be to encourage good prices for cotton, grain, wheat, flour, &c., 
 to be sent abroad. 
 
 Q. At this time did he speak of any speculations in gold or stocks, or 
 tell you that he had any on hand for his wife? — A. ISTo. 
 
 Q. Did you go into any speculations in gold or stocks for any of the 
 President's family, or did you know of any gold or stocks being bought 
 for them? — ^A. No. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. Did you ever do anything in pursuance of Mr. Corbin's influence 
 or advice with the administration or Secretary of the Treasury to influ- 
 ence their action in any way ? — ^A. In no way whatever, and I will be 
 very glad if the committee will address a communication to the President 
 and Secretary of the Treasury on that subject, asking them that question. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Did you ever propose to invest any money for any member of the 
 administration while you were assistant treasurer in I^ew York, or for 
 any member of their families ? — A. No. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. Did Mr. Corbin have anything to do with your appointment as 
 sub-treasurer in New York ? — A. Not to my knowledge, any more than 
 from his friendship. I supposed, of course, that as an old acquaintance 
 he would speak in my favor. 
 
 By Me. Jones : 
 
 Q. Did you see him after the breakdown in gold ? — ^A. I went to his 
 house once, when he sent for me, after these statements came out in the 
 press. He was sick in bed. Mr. Wm. M. Evarts, his counsel, was there 
 when I went into his room. We had some conversation about these 
 charges and accusations, and he made some statements about them. 
 I do not remember particularly the conversation, but denying them 
 generally. 
 
 By Me. Cox : 
 
 Q. I asked you whether you took the office of assistant treasurer in 
 New York under any promise or obligation, expressed or implied, to 
 assist in any operations in Wall street, iu connection with stocks or gold 
 or other transactions ? — ^A. With no living human being ; not the slightest 
 promise or obligation, expressed or implied. 
 
 Q. Did these transactions with Seligman begin before you took the 
 ofSce? — A. I am not positi ve as to .that. 
 
324 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 By Mr. Judd : 
 Q. What is your impression ?— A. I think not. I have for a long 
 time bought government securities and sold them; and I have done 
 this through different parties, for others and as a trustee, frequently, and 
 sometimes for myself. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. It is perhaps due to you to explain a seeming inconsistency of a 
 former answer, in which you stated that you had no transactions in gold 
 except the purchase of bonds on a gold basis ; you afterward acquiesced 
 in the statement of Mr. Seligman that he sold gold foryoa. — A. That is 
 a part of the general transaction to make the bonds that he or others 
 were carrying for me on a gold basis. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by a gold basis ? — ^A. My meaning is this : Sup- 
 pose to-day the price of gold is 122, and the price of 5-20s, 114. I want to 
 buy one hundred 5-20s of 1867 on a gold basis here. I buy that amount 
 at that price, and sell the same amount of gold at 122. I know very 
 welV when I make that purchase, with the European markets cornering 
 the price of gold, that, if bonds go down five per cent, below the par of 
 gold on the other side, they must fall here. If I think gold is going to 
 fall, if I think it is not going to maintain its standard, I go and sell a 
 hundred thousand dollars of gold ; and if gold falls five per cent., and 
 bonds fall the same, the bonds will stand, being on a gold basis. Bonds, 
 however, do not fall quite as much as gold, and the purchase will be a 
 profitable one when the gold is sold against these bonds. 
 
 By the Chaibman : 
 
 Q. Do transactions in bonds on a gold basis depend for their profit or 
 sale upon the premium in gold ? — A. ISTo. 
 
 Q. Does a transaction in bonds on a gold basis depend in part for its 
 liront or loss on the premium in gold? — A. They have a relation to eacli 
 other. You have a good many Wall street witnesses, however, and if 
 you will put this question to them, they will explain it more clearly than 
 I can. 
 
 Q. At the time of your giving the order during the panic week to sell 
 gold, was it subsequent to your main transaction in bonds, growing out 
 of which there was a balance in your favor on the books of Seligman?— 
 A. I am inclined to think so. 
 
 Q. The sale of gold during the panic week was not then, as I under- 
 stand, made in connection with any bond transaction, other than the 
 fact that you had a credit in the account on Seligman's books growing 
 out of the transaction ? — A. I think Seligman was, if not he, others were, 
 holding some bonds for me at that time, and a faU in gold would have 
 wiped out any credit to my account. 
 
 By Mr. Bxikohaed : 
 
 Q. Do I understand you that generally an advance or decline in the pre- 
 mium on gold is followed by an advance or decline in the currency value 
 of bonds ? — A. Very often it is. It depends on foreign prices and mar- 
 kets sometimes. 
 
 Q. Do nofthey usually sympathize with each others — A. There are 
 a good many nice questions to explain in that connection, which I do 
 not think that I can make clear. For instance, a foreign banker, if gold 
 falls here, can sell bonds and import them from the other side, acting 
 constantly on a gold basis ; and if gold rises here, can buy bonds with 
 currency and send them to the other side. That has its influence and 
 effect on these prices. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATIOlSr. 325 
 
 Q. If, after Seligman had sold the gold for you during that week, the 
 price of gold had steadily gone up, or had held up, how would that have 
 affected your transaction, favorably or otherwise ? — ^A. It would have 
 made me his debtor possibly. 
 
 Q. If, on the contrary, after the sale of gold for you, gold had fallen, 
 could you have been a gainer by the amount of that fall? — A. Not en- 
 tirely, for I was carrying bonds. It would ha^e been partially so. 
 
 Q. State whether you had, during the months of August and Septem- 
 ber, previous to the breakdown, any transactions in gold or bonds with 
 the firm of L. P. Morton & Co., or any member ^thereof ; if so, to what 
 extent ?— A. I did. 
 
 Q. Please state to the committee, in your own way, the extent and 
 character of the transactions ? — A. I could give the transactions in ex- 
 act figures if I had brought my papers with me. Mr. Morton purchased 
 for me some bonds in London, and he made one or two diiferent pur- 
 chases at different times in different amounts, I think three or four hun- 
 dred thcrasand dollars; in all possibility more, and possibly less. I 
 stated to Mr. Morton that my impression of this administration was 
 this : that in the first place they were determined to collect all the reve- 
 nue of the government as faithfully as they could, and that in the sec- 
 ond place they would administer the government as economically as 
 possible, making as few expenses as they could ; that the public senti- 
 ment would not sustain the Secretary of the Treasury in locking uxj the 
 money which would accumulate under these circumstances in the Treas- 
 ury ; that he would be compelled to invest it in the purchase of bonds ; 
 that I believed, although I had never had one word on this subject — and 
 lere I wiU state that 1 had then never seen the Secretary of the Treas- 
 ury, and did not untU he came to New York the time mentioned in my 
 testimony, and never exchanged a word with him verbally — that, I be- 
 lieved his policy would be to so improve the credit of the government 
 as to make it possible to fund the debt at a lower rate of interest ; that 
 I thought it was everybody's duty to put his shoulder to the wheel, and 
 that as far as my means and credit would allow me, I should go in for 
 that ; that I did not think it took a very wise man, or a very shrewd 
 man, to calculate as to what would be done up to the time Congress 
 came together and fixed some policy in regard to the accumulation of 
 the revenues ; that I knew General Grant well enough to believe that 
 would be his course ; that he might make some mistakes in the road 
 he traveled, but that his objective point would be certainly reached. I 
 think I said that to other people when they asked me what I thought 
 of the policy of the government. I had had no totimation from any 
 ofScial sources as to what the policy was to be, but it was plain to me 
 that that would inevitably be the policy ; and for any man to know what 
 the extent of Mr. BoutweU's operations would be, he had only to look at 
 the monthly statements and inform himself of the means he would have 
 for purchasing bonds. T said to Mr. Morton, " I think that if I were 
 the Secretary of the Treasury, I would announce publicly that policy, 
 and would require my subordinates to publish every Saturday night the 
 receipts and expenditures of the government. I would say that all the 
 surplus receipts over the expenses should be applied to the reduction of 
 the debt, and then it would be for Congress to say how much that sur- 
 plus should be by fixing the revenues through the tariffs and revenue 
 laws." 
 
 Q. About what time was this ? — ^A. I h-ave said that same thing to 
 other people. I could not fix any time, but think it was at the time 
 purchases were made. I moreover said, and it might be used against 
 
326 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 me, that I would never sell a dollar of gold if I were the Secretary of 
 the Treasury, and my reason for it is this : I would loan gold, but I 
 would not sell it, because, in the first place, we want to reduce the rate 
 of interest on the public debt, and foreign governments look specially 
 to the amount of gold that is in the Treasury. Tou will not convince 
 them as you convince our people of our abundant resources. If they 
 see in the monthly statement of the Secretary of the Treasury so many 
 millions of gold in the Treasury, they are ready to put their funds in 
 bonds; and a large amount of gold in the Treasury would therefore 
 enable the government more easily to fund its entire indebtedness at a 
 lower rate of interest. I would provide that the Secretary of the 
 Treasury should be authorized to loan gold to the national banks, to the 
 extent of a certain per centum on their capital, on the four or four-and- 
 a-half per cent, bonds in which the debt could be funded. Then the 
 merchant or banker, who has gold duties to pay to the government, 
 could borrow it of the banks. In such a country as this, and with such 
 resources, gold is not worth more than par, and such a policy, if ^idopted, 
 would bring gold to par. No combination could ever be made success- 
 ful to put up the price of gold when they knew it was in the power of 
 any man who held four or four-and-a-half per cent, bonds to go into 
 the Treasury and borrow the surplus gold. I have often promulgated 
 that view. 
 
 Q. Please state the amount of your transactions with Morton & Co.!— 
 A. I have said that Morton iirst purchased some bonds for me, the 
 amount I do not recollect. 
 
 Q. State what gold transactions, if any, you had with him ? — ^A. I do 
 not think there were any gold transactions', except those made by him 
 incident to the purchase of bonds, with no reference to the purchase or 
 sale of gold by itself. 
 
 Q. What amount of gold did he ever sell for you in that way ? — ^A. I 
 do not think he ever sold a dollar. He may have bought some and sold 
 it again without my giving any specific directions. 
 
 Q. Did you give any specific order in regard to the purchase or sale 
 of gold through him. ? — A. Never. If he did it at all, he did it upon the 
 general authority which he had from me. 
 
 Q. Has this account been closed by Morton, or was it before you left 
 the treasury ? — A. I had a statement of it. By reference to my letters 
 and correspondence I could give you the exact condition of the account. 
 
 Q. State with what other firm or firms you had similar transactions 
 as these with Morton and Seligman while you were in the sub-treasury.— 
 A. I had transactions in bonds with other firms. 
 
 Q. Had you any transactions in bonds with other firms in the same 
 way as you have stated you had with these firms ? — A. I have felt a 
 desire to be entirely frank with the committee, and still I have felt that 
 the committee and myself, if you will excuse me, are going beyond the 
 record when they go outside of anything but gold. I had no other 
 transactions in bonds upon a gold basis. 
 
 Witness was here directed to retire, and the committee, after consul- 
 tation, directed the follov/ing question to be propounded : 
 
 Q. Did you, for yourself or others, have any other transactions in 
 bonds during the month of September, previous to the breakdoiN^ m 
 gold ; if so, what was the amount, and did you dispose of them before 
 the breakdown, or did you hold them over? 
 
 The witness was again called in, and the above question propounded 
 to him. 
 
 The witness stated to the committee that he desired to consult counsel 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 327 
 
 before answering the question. Leave was granted, and the witness 
 was allowed time to consult counsel. 
 
 By Mr. Jones: 
 Q. What led to the resignation of your offtce? — ^A. Before this gold 
 transaction I found the duties of the office wearing upon me very 
 severely. I wrote to the Secretary of the Treasury that my physician 
 advised me either to take a leave of absence or resign my position. I 
 wrote that fact to the Secretary of the Treasury in a private letter. The 
 Secretary replied that he should be very sorry to have me resign, and 
 that I should have a leave of absence if I desired it. I had made up my 
 mind fully to resign. When this thing came up, and these charges 
 were made, I then withheld my resignation, because its effect would be 
 merely to confirm the charges and accusations made against me. When 
 the first accusation was made against me I wrote immediately to the 
 Secretary stating that charges were made in the newspapers; that I 
 considered my administration of the Treasury and its management as 
 beyond question, and that I did not intend to take any notice of these 
 accusations. If, however, the accusations made any impression upon the 
 mind of the Secretary of the Treasury or the President, I deemed it due 
 to myself and to them to ask for an investigation. The Secretary 
 replied that on mere newspaper accusation of that kind he did not con- 
 sider it worth whUe to pay any attention to it. Then a statement came 
 out in the paper signed by Frederick A. Lane. When that appeared I 
 wrote to the Secretary of the Treasury that as I was an officer in the 
 army I would like to have a thorough investigation of this matter, and 
 asked for a court of inquiry, or such other investigation as might seem 
 best to him to be made. He sent the Solicitor of the Treasury Depart- 
 ment, Mr. Banfield, to me in New York, with a letter stating that while 
 .the public mind was justly sensitive in regard to the charges of officers 
 being engaged in speculation, it was due to the public that an investi- 
 gation should be had, but that he did not see how it could be had while 
 I held the office of assistant treasurer. My first reply to Mr. Banfield 
 was that I would not resign while these charges were pending against 
 me; until my skirts were entirely clear of the charge of having used my 
 official position for my own private advantage. My counsel and friends, 
 however, advised me to change my determination in that respect, and 
 to send in my resignation at once, and ask for an investigation, which I 
 did. I was then suffering very severely with what my physician termed 
 premonitory symptoms of an attack of congestion. No action was taken 
 for some time. When I sent in my resignation, after some days, I 
 received a' reply from the Secretary acknowledging the receipt of the 
 letter, and stating that he would address me shortly upon the subject. 
 Some days afterward I received a telegram from the Secretary that 
 Solicitor Banfield and Senator Frelinghuysen, of New Jersey, would call 
 upon me. They did call upon me, stating that they had come in accord- 
 ance with my request to make an investigation into this matter; that they 
 deemed it due to me to state how they proposed to make that investiga- 
 tion. They proposed to receive any statement which parties had to 
 offer, but not to receive any affidavits. From the peculiar nature of 
 their commission, being without legal power, they could not compel the 
 attendance of witnesses. They, therefore, proposed not to take any 
 formal testimony, nor to allow any counsel to be present. If I was pre- 
 pared to submit to such an ivestigation as that, without the formality 
 of affidavits, they announced that they were ready to proceed. After 
 consultation, I said to these gentlemen that it did not seem to me that 
 
328 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 it would amount to an investigation ; tliat if it was to be entered on at 
 all 1 wanted the witnesses to be under oath, and to have the opportunity 
 of confronting them, and producing formal evidence and refuting false 
 statements f that I must decline such an investigation as was proposed, 
 I said that the session of Congress was near, and that in all probability 
 Congress would order an investigation into the matter ; if not, I would 
 propose that it be made through a court of inquiry into my conduct as 
 an of&oer of the army. These gentlemen returned. I came over to Wash- 
 ington, and saw the President and Secretary of the Treasury, stating to 
 them my unwillingness to enter into such an investigation which would 
 leave me at the mercy of any parties, who, without being under oath, or 
 subject to any responsibility, could make any statements they pleased 
 against me; that this office was wearing upon my health and using me 
 up, and I begged them to appoint my successor. The Secretary of the 
 Treasury assured me that my successor would be appointed very soon, 
 and within a short time my successor was appointed. 
 
 By Mr. JoNBS : 
 , Q. Then you resigned at your own instance ? — A. I have stated the 
 facts as they occurred. I think you will make that inference. 
 
 Q. You are still an officer of the army ? — A. I am still an ofScer of 
 the army. When I was appointed to the sub-treasury I agplied to the 
 Adjutant General for a leave of absence until the session of Congress, 
 announcing my intention to resign my position in the army whenever I 
 should be confirmed as assistant treasurer. An indefinite leave of ab- 
 sence was granted. I ceased to draw pay, of course, as an officer of the 
 army from the date of my entering upon duty as an assistant treasurer. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. How much money had you in charge in the sub-treasury when 
 you commenced the duties of your office ? — A. I think about eighty mil- 
 lions in gold, twenty odd millions in currency, one hundred thousand 
 or more in the revenue stamp department, and in the assay office, bars, 
 two or three millions ; about one hundred millions in all that I became 
 responsible for. 
 
 Q. Have you settled up all your transactions there ? — ^A. My funds 
 have been counted and my accounts approved and , settled, with the ex- 
 ception of three or four little items, Avhich they have referred back to me, 
 and which have not been allowed. One, for instance, was for some re- 
 pairs of the building ; another was for a transaction which occurred in 
 this way : I addressed the Secretary a letter, during my occupancy of 
 the office, asking permission, to subscribe, as my predecessor ]iad done, 
 one hundred dollars to an association for information, which expendi- 
 ture was authorized and afterward placed in question with other minor 
 items through the auditor. The whole amount is inconsiderable and only 
 of such a character as is of frequent occurrence with disbursing officers. 
 I consider my accounts fully and substantially closed and settled, with 
 these exceptions, which are trifling and will probably be allowed. 
 
 Q. What amount of money passes through that office in the way of 
 disbursements and receipts in the course of a week? — ^A. It varies- 
 very greatly. The receipts from customs some days run up to seven or 
 eight hundred thousand dollars in gold; others as low as three hundred 
 thousand. The treasurer keeps an account. Many disbursing officers 
 keep accounts, and I think the aggregates of their balances are as high 
 as six or seven millions a week ; sometimes as high as twelve, and some- 
 times as low as four millions. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 329 
 
 Q. No question was made on your resignation except what you have 
 stated ?— A. Nothing at all. 
 The witness subsequently furnished the follo^g papers : 
 
 My DE.Ui SiK : In reply to tlie inquiry laade by your committee tp answer in. writ- 
 ino-, under oath, and for which purpose time was given me to consult counsel, I would 
 state that my counsel is absent from the city, and will not return this week. Without 
 waiting for him, I therefore now reply fully to this, as I have to others, under protest 
 as to any right to inquire into and publish my private and non-official purchases and 
 investments, for myself, my relatives and friends ; all of which were part and parcel 
 of the amounts of investments, purchases, and sales alluded to in my testimony. Pro- 
 testing against the right or justice of such a course, I leave it to your committee to 
 decide and establish the precedent, whether by means of or through the process of a 
 congressional investigation, the private business of an individual is to be made mat- 
 ter of public record, through his own testimony, or that of others, as to his business 
 transactions, such transactions being in no wise official. Your committee must be well 
 aware that any refusal on my part to answer fully any questions as to myself or ans' 
 officer of the administration with regard to these matters, might give color to ground- 
 less accusations. Hence I am, by the situation, and my desire to leave nothing for 
 conjecture, deprived of a course (which you would doubtless have sustained) ol 
 silence, and declination to reply to all questions raised which do not bear directly upon 
 participation in a combination or course to influence the price of gold. Should I evade 
 or fail to meet your inquiries, and leave you to suspect complicity of others, I should 
 place both myself and them in a false position. While courting an investigation as to 
 myself, and any complicity on my part, officially or o iherwise, with any speculation or 
 combination to affect gold, I did not anticipate any inquiry into my private and non- 
 official business, or that of my friends. I have never considered that, in accepting an 
 office of great rSsponsibility and care, I divested myself of the right or privilege to 
 use my own resources as freely as I pleased, so long as in such use of them I took no 
 advantage of information or knowledge gained from my official position. I bought 
 bonds prior to the breakdown. My entire purchases of bonds between the day I ac- 
 cepted the office of assistant treasurer and the day I left, for my own account and in- 
 vestment, amount, by careful and accurate examination of records, to the following 
 sums : 
 
 In Frankfort, London, and other European markets, seven hundred and thirty-seven 
 thousand, or 737 bonds. In this country five hundred bonds. I still hold nearly half 
 of these amounts. I have made purchases and sales of bonds for several years last 
 past : there never was any secret on my part in regard to the matter. The evidence of 
 Mr. Seligmau would seem to convey the impression that I was making a pure and simple 
 gold transaction and gaining thereby a large profit, while the real and exact state of 
 the case is, that it was but part of a general series of transactions in bonds on a gold 
 basis ; and the profits arising out of all my investments, purchases, and sales during 
 my term of office would not reduce the cost to me of the bonds I hold at this moment, 
 (and held when before your committee for examination,) two and a half per cent, be- 
 low their market value. None of my transactions were calculated to, intended, or made 
 for any purj)ose connected with fluctuations in gold. I have never made a purchase or 
 sale intended or calculated in any degree to affect the price of gold or bonds, other 
 thau such as would show my implicit faith in my government, and aid (rather than 
 injure, if of any effect) its credit. I am thus open in my statement, that none may 
 suffer by my silence. All sales of gold by me were to put bonds on a gold basis, and 
 not gold speculations. I do not change my reply to one of your questions concerning 
 the fact whether I had any knowledge that any government official was in any way 
 interested or concerned in the gold movement, tor the reasons stated in my note ap- 
 pended to your report of the testimony. I desire to correct the inference arising from 
 my testimony, that I kept silent when questioned as to the policy of the government, 
 so that it shall be understood in all cases to apply to efforts for information, or ideas 
 toward gold speculation. I never hesitated to' converse freely upon the general poUoy 
 of the government. I find upon examination that the sales of gold made for my ao- 
 Cjjimt testified to by Mr. Seligman, were part and paircel of my transactions in foreign 
 ''ud domestic account, and were made by me to place bonds on a gold basis that were 
 lid partially by him and partially by others. I inclose the original dispatches as re- 
 ^jeived from the Secretary, September 24th. I find that one was received by each line 
 . and the time noted as stated. I desire them returned for the files of the Treasury here. 
 "* give herewith a copy of the letter of Jay Gould, concerning his claim' on me for par- 
 ticipation in his pool, j)romised in my testimony, and submit the original for examina- 
 tion ; the original letter I desire returned. I correct the evidence with regard to this, 
 upon refreshing my memory by the letter itself, so far as to state in reply to the ques- 
 tion as to threats, that the threat was made to sell it publicly for my name and ac- 
 count, if I did not carry the gold ; also, that the whole thing would be published in the 
 newspapers, and he said would ruin me. I give herewith the letters of the Secretary 
 
330 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 of the Treasury, referred to in mj- testimony, and my own referred to -with regard to 
 resignation, &o. I desire the original to he returned. I desire the corrections noted 
 below to he made to my testimony on the subject of bonds upon a gold basis, and re- 
 plies thereto, which your permission was given me to re-examine by reason of errors 
 on my part, or your reporter's part, in clearly conveying my ideas or expressions. Thoy 
 are as follows : Question. " What do you mean by a gold basis ?" Answer. " I mean 
 by a gold basis, so conducting the business that it would be equivalent to purchasing the 
 bonds for gold ; as currency is different in value from gold, and is at the same time lawful 
 money here, the transaction is made by buying bonds and selling gold. For instance, I 
 buy one hundred bonds for currency, seV^^ the equivalent of gold, and use the currency 
 for payment of the bonds ; this leaves the bonds on the same basis as if bought in Lon- 
 don or Frankfort, a very customary thing with foreign bankers." Question. "Do 
 •transactions iu bonds on a gold basis depend for their sale or profit upon the premium 
 on gold ?" Answer. " Not necessarily." To the answer as to whether the sale of gold 
 made by Seligman being in connection with bond purchase. Answer. " Sellgman and 
 others were carrying bonds for me, and a fall in gold, unless I placed the bonds on a 
 gold basis, by an equivalent sale of gold, would have caused me to lose by the purchase 
 of the bonds." To the answer, " it would have made me his debtor possibly," add 
 " depending, however, upon the ruling prices of bonds abroad or in gold." To the an- 
 swer to the question as to whether I would have been a gainer by the amount of the 
 fall, read. Answer. "Not entirely." I was holding bonds with him and others; it 
 would have depended upon value of bonds in London, or on gold basis. Morton & 
 Co.'s purchases for me were a little under $200,000, and they sold gold on account of 
 these bonds in July to the amount of §200,000. The bonds were sold October 7th. 
 
 Copy of letter of Jay Gould. 
 
 " New York, September 25, 1869.. 
 " Sib : I am can-ying for you $1,500,000 gold, being your interest in the pool. Please 
 provide a place to-day for the same, or give Messrs. Smith, Gould, Martin &. Co. a satis- 
 factory margin this morning, and let the bearer know, or they will be compelled to sell 
 it out for your account under the rule. 
 " Yours, &c., 
 
 "JAT GOULD." 
 
 I further remember a threat with it shown in writing : " Tell him if he don't, we 
 will sell it publicly in his name," which the letter itself brings to my mind. 
 
 Copy of telegrams. 
 
 Washington, September 24, 1869, (Franklin line.) 
 Daniel Butteefibld : 
 Sell four millions of gold to-morrow, and buy four million bonds. 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, 
 
 Secretary Treasury. 
 Eeoeived at 12.05. — Originals herewith. 
 
 Duplicate, same as above, by Western Union, received at 12.10. 
 
 Telegrams sent Secretary Boutwell September 24, and referred-to in my testimony. 
 
 September 24, 1869. 
 Hon. Geo. S. Boutwell, Secretary Treasury, Washington, D. C. : 
 
 I am requested to represent to you condition of affairs here. Gold is 150. Much 
 feeling and accusation of government complicity. The propositions of Wotherspoon, 
 Duncan, Sherman & Co., or Seligman, if accepted, would relieve exchange market, 
 and be judicious. 
 
 " DAN'L BUTTEEFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Measurer. 
 Sent about 10.30 a. m. 
 
 September 24, 1869. 
 Price of gold at eleven o'clock and twenty, minutes is 158. 
 
 DAN'L BUTTEEFIELD, 
 
 ■Assistant Treasurer. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 331 
 
 Sepjbmbek 24, 1869. 
 
 Gold one hundred and sixty, (160;) moving up every hour. 
 
 DAK'L BUTTEEFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Treaswer. 
 
 This last dispafcoh left the office about fifteen or twenty minutes to twelve o'clock. 
 
 Telegram, {^sent on receipt of dispatch, to sell four millions.) 
 
 Sbptember 24, 1869. 
 Dispatch received. Notice made public at once. Gold for cash fallen to 140, at 
 12 o'clock. 
 
 DAIflEL BITTTERFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Treasury. 
 
 Copy of Utter asking investigation. 
 
 United States Tebasuey, Octoier 22, 1869. 
 
 Dbab Sik : I know of no other way that the charges and statements affecting my 
 conduct as an officer and a gentleman can be so fully, thoroughly, and fairly investi- 
 gated as by the method I have this day requested from the President, and forward 
 herewith through you. Acting under the advice of friends and counsel, I have re- 
 mained silent, and taken no notice of the charges and aspersions made. The charge 
 that I have been a party, or had any interest in any combination to affect the price, or 
 have bought any gold for such purpose, or with such parties, or authorized any person 
 or party whatever, in any way to do so, is wholly and unqualifiedly false. The charge 
 that I have received any pay, emolument, or profit for any service, information, or 
 assistance to any such persons or parties, is wholly and entirely false. The charge 
 that the gold or funds of the treasury have been sold, or used in any manner other 
 than under your directions and orders, and those of the Treasurer of the United States, 
 all of which are public, is wholly false. The charge that I have used my private means 
 in speculating in gold, or authorized others to do so, is wholly false. 
 
 I cannot enter into details, item by item, of the various accusations made against 
 me, otherwise than by a proper and thorough investigation. As I still hold my com- 
 mission in the army of the United States, which commission, as well as the position I 
 now occupy, I am unworthy to hold, if the various charges made against me are true, 
 I sincerely trust that you may think proper to indorse my request. I am advised by 
 my counsel and friends that this course is the true one for me to pursue. I should 
 feel unsatisfied with any less formal and exact investigation and examination. Such a 
 commission would have fuU power to Investigate, and summon and compel attendance 
 of witnesses. If composed, as I trust it may be, of officers of the highest standing 
 and character in the army, its investigation and decision should be fully satisfactory. 
 It wiU be so to me. 
 
 I ain, very respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 DAJS'L BUTTEEFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer. 
 
 Hon. Gboege S. Boutwbix, 
 
 Secretary of tlie Treasury. 
 
 P. S. — I adopt this method as one certain to bring a result. Should you deem any 
 other course preferable, I would be glad to adopt it. 
 I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 DAN'L BUTTEEFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer. ' 
 
 Copy of letter pf Secretary Boutwell, which fixes date of his visit to Neio TorJc, referred to in 
 
 testimony. 
 
 Geoton, September 13, 1869. 
 MyDeaeSie: Will you dine with me at 6^ p.m. Wednesday next, at the Astor 
 House, where I then expect to be ? No one else. I wish to see you before I see others 
 in New York. 
 
 Very truly, 
 
 GEO.. S.- BOUTWELL. 
 
 Hon. DAN'L BUTTEEFIELD. 
 
 P. "S.— I shall bo in New York on Thursday, as well. 
 
332 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Copy of letter of resignation. 
 
 New York, October 25, 1869. 
 My Dbar Sib: After an interview with Mr. Banfield, Solicitor of the Treasury, bear- 
 ing your letter, I find that such an investigation as I have asked for cannot Ijo accorded 
 me, while holding my office. In order that your department may not he embarrassed 
 in any examination of my transactions as assistant treasurer, and also that I may se- 
 cure the investigation I have asked, I respectfully tender, through you, to the President 
 of the United States, my resignation, to take effect as soon as a successor can be ap- 
 pointed and qualified, and receipt to me for the funds and public property. 
 
 Eenewing my request for a formal and authoritative examination, that may forever 
 settle the truth of the charges raised against me, 
 
 I am, verv respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 DAN'L BUTTEEFIELD. 
 Hon. Geo. S. Boutwell, Secretary of the Treaawy. 
 
 Copy of Secretary BoutweWs reply. 
 
 Trbasuey Department, Novembe)- 10, 1869. 
 Sir : Your letter of the 25th ultimo tendering your resignation as assistaht treasurer 
 at New York, was duly received, and I am now directed by the President to inform 
 you that your resignation is accepted, to take effect when your successor is duly quaU- 
 fied. Hon. Charles J. Folger has been appointed to the office, and he will probably enter 
 upon the discharge of its duties without unnecessary delay. 
 
 In thus accepting your resignation, I am able to say that you have shown great en- 
 ergy and industry in the office, and I am satisfied that the changes introduced by yon 
 will tend to accuracy and safety in the maugement of its affairs. 
 Very respectfully, 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Secretary. 
 Hon. D^unBL Butt'erpibld, Assistant Treasurer, Neiv Yorlc. 
 
 My delay in forwarding these documents is caused by the difficulty in getting at 
 them all, and must be my apology therefor. The original documents referred to herein 
 are in the hands of the bearer, who wiU lay them before your committee. 
 I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 DAN'L BUTTEEFIELD. 
 General J. A. Garfield, M. C, 
 
 Chairman Committee on Banking and Currency. 
 
 Note. — I consider this, entire, as an answer, under oath, to the question I- was given 
 time to answer. — Dan'l Buttbrpield. 
 
 Personally appeared before me Daniel Butterfield, and made oath to the foregoing 
 statements, subscribed by him before me this 4th day of February, 1870. 
 
 LSKAL.] CHAS. S. NEWCOMB, 
 
 Notary Public, City and County of New TorTc. 
 
 Washington, January 31, 1870. 
 Gboege Opdtke sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State your place of residence, place of business, and occu- 
 pation. — Answer. I reside in tlie city of New York ^ I am in the bank- 
 ing business in that city, as private banker. 
 
 Q. How long have you been in the banking business ? — A. A little 
 less than two years. 
 
 Q. What was your previous occupation ? — Al, Dry goods merchant 
 and importer and jobber of dry goods. I was in that business for a 
 quarter of a century. 
 
 Q. State to the committee whether you were familiar with the price 
 of gold during .the past season. — ^A. Yes, sir; I watched its move- 
 ments carefully. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATIof. 333 
 
 Q. State whether you are personally familiar with the causes and ef- 
 fects of the extraordinary fluctuations in gold in September last. — ^A. I 
 cannot say that I have any direct personal knowledge of them, but I 
 have knowledge inferential. I became satisfied, a considerable time be- 
 fore the bubble burst, that a combination had been formed in New York 
 to monopolize aU the marketable gold there was in the city ; at least, all 
 that was free from government ownership, and to make contracts for as 
 much more as they could find speculators willing to sell "short," and 
 thus control its price, both for use and for sale. I am entirely satisfied 
 that such a combination existed. 
 
 Q. What was the immediate effect on the business of New York of 
 these fluctuations in September last 1 — A. The effect on business was 
 very injurious; it produced a universal distrust of the future ; and when- 
 ever that feeling obtains in the market it produces an almost entire 
 paralysis of trade. No one is willing to take a step forward until he 
 can see more clearly what is awaiting, when such a combination as that 
 can be formed, and can so fully accomplish its purposes. 
 
 Q. Were there considerable actual losses resulting from it in the city 
 of New York ? — A. Yes ; not so large, probably, as community in gen- 
 eral suppose ; but still, very considerable ; and of course there were cor- 
 responding gains. 
 
 Q. State to the committee whether many legitimate business men 
 generally suffered much actual loss ; also those doing any other kind of 
 business? — A. Merchants engaged in the foreign trade, as well as 
 bankers, a part of whose business is in foreign interest, and in which 
 interest gold is necessarily involved, must always have prospective 
 obhgations to meet in gold. Every day's transactions create new obliga- 
 tions, payable in future, and liquidate others. These transactions at 
 some times increase very largely, and at other times diminish ; so that 
 it is utterly impossible for a merchant or a banker to keep himself 
 entirely free, so far as the gold branch of his business is concerned. He 
 must, at some times, have larger obligations to pay than he has assets 
 in gold to meet them. And it is the universal custom, I think, among 
 intelligent merchants and bankers^ and others largely engaged in busi- 
 ness which requires gold to settle it, to judge of the future ; and if they 
 suppose gold is going to be lower, (taking into consideration the condi- 
 tion of the markets of the country and of the export trade,) they are 
 very likely to borrow gold, so as to meet their immediate obligations, 
 believing that they can buy in future at a lower rate ; which is specula- 
 tion in one aspect of the case. Nobody engaged in business can give 
 an order for goods abroad in which there is not speculation. Con- 
 sequently a judicious man endeavors to so arrange his gold interest as 
 to have a surplus on hand when he thinks the price of gold is going to 
 advance, and to be a borrower, or be " short" of gold when he thinks it 
 is going to be lower. At the period preceding the September panic, so 
 far as my knowledge extends, importing merchants generally believed 
 that our large cotton crop, the payment of the interest of the national 
 debt, and many other concurrent causes, would keep exchange in our 
 favor, and reduce the premium on gold ; consequently, the most of them 
 were borrowers, in the expectation of buying gold at cheaper prices. I 
 think that the chief part of the " short " interest that existed imme- 
 diately before the combination for that September speculation, was on 
 the part of the importing merchants. Nearly every man was acting 
 under the belief that he had better borrow at least a portion of his 
 gold than to buy it, thinking that in future he would be able to get 
 
334 (foLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 it cheaper. Therefore my opinion is that the chief sufferers were the 
 importing merchants. 
 
 Q. Can you state, with any approximation to accuracy, what the total 
 loss of the importing merchants of ISew York was, in consequence of 
 that rise in gold ? — A. I do not think it could be very large. The lowest 
 jDoint gold had touched before this combination was formed was 31 per 
 cent, premium. It advanced to 40 or 41 by gentle gradation, a little every 
 day, when, by a sudden startling movement, it was put up to 60. Matters 
 were so mixed in the transactions in gold, from 41 to 60, that it is utterly 
 impossible for any one to know, unless he were a party in interest, who 
 gained and who lost. No exact settlements with reference to that day 
 of the panic were ever made. They all compromised. Heath & Co., 
 the brokers for the combination, comi^romised at 1^5 at the time when 
 gold had fallen to 131. 
 
 Q. You have stated the directly injurious effect of that combination on 
 iinporters ; will you now state what injuries were directly effected upon 
 bankers, and the banking business ? — A. Bankers who were in the same 
 category as merchants, especially those engaged in foreign excbange, 
 suffered considerably, I have no doubt ; and others doubtless gained- 
 depending upon the precise condition in which they happened to be at 
 the moment, in relation to their gold interest. 
 
 Q. Did it affect in any way injuriously the interest and business of 
 the national banks? — ^A. ISTo, not directly. 
 
 Q. You have stated the primary and immediate effects of the move- 
 ment ; will you now state the incidental general effects upon business, 
 other than you have already mentioned ; was the effect felt upon business 
 generally for any considerable time after the panic was over ? — A. The 
 injurious effects have not yet passed away. 
 
 Q. Point out in what way it has left its injurious results upon the gen- 
 eral business of the country. — A. It produced an impression upon the 
 mercantile and financial mind, not only in this country but all over the 
 world, that we here are a set of gamblers, and that it is not safe to 
 enter into any contracts with us, when it is possible for a small combin- 
 ation of speculators to monopolize one branch of our currency, the coin, 
 which performs its functions now as weU as it did before the suspension 
 of specie payments, so far as our foreign trade is concerned. The shock 
 was so universal, not only in America but abroad, that our railroad and 
 other securities, which before that had been selling very freely on the 
 continent, especially in Germany and Holland, have since found but 
 little market abroad. We have had some of these securities ourselves 
 to offer to the foreign market ; and aU the German bankers with whom 
 I have conversed upon the subject inform me that that event has greatly 
 shaken the confidence of German capitalists, which has not yet been 
 sufficiently restored to induce them to purchase our securities to any 
 extent. 
 
 Q. Did it affect the price of our securities, as well as the readiness of 
 their sale ? — A. It affected government securities very little ; but some 
 German bankers have mentioned to me certain railroad securities that 
 have since been returned upon their hands by their correspondents 
 abroad, at a loss of from five to seven and a half per cent, on the price 
 that was originally paid for them. 
 
 Q. Can you trace this result directly to a lack of confidence inspired 
 by that movement in Wall street ? — A. It is attributable to that, and 
 to that solely. The effect on government bonds was not very material, 
 and was but temporary. They fell two or three per cent. 
 
 Q. Did the fluctuation in gold last September affect in any way trans- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 335 
 
 actions ■^hoUy in currency ? A. It produced a universal feeling of dis- 
 trust, which made it difficult to obtain currency, and injured, for a time 
 very seriously, the general business of the country. 
 
 Q. Were there, in fact, a considerable number of failures of business 
 houses in consequence of that event ! — ^A. Failures were not numerous. 
 There had been a good degree of prudence generally manifested by the 
 mercantile community since early in the summer. We had quite a 
 stringent money market in June, which led to a general apprehension 
 that when the crops were moved, in the fall, that stringency would be 
 so far intensified as to threaten a commercial revolution, and that super- 
 induced a good degree of caution among merchants. To this fact alone I 
 attribute the fact that so few failures occurred. I think the failures of 
 1869, in fact, were only about as numerous as those of the year previous, 
 according to the statistics of the commercial circulars. 
 
 Q. State whether you think this panic, and similar movements in gold 
 for speculative purposes, have had anything to do with the numerous de- 
 falcations of cashiers, and others, concerning which we have recently 
 heard and read so much 1 — A. Speculation in general is, no doubt, one 
 of the main causes of these defalcations. Speculation in stocks, specu- 
 lation in gold, speculation in real estate, speculation in other things. 
 They all spring from kindred movements. But there is this about 
 ■speculation in gold which makes it more dangerous, and, perhaps, more 
 tempting than speculation in almost anything else, viz : that it requires 
 scarcely any capital to speculate in gold. A man with a very little 
 money may speculate to a very large amount. 
 
 Q. What is the usual margin required in gold speculation? — A. . I have 
 never been sufficiently indentifled with it to speak with accuracy as to 
 the general custom; but I think the general custom is that, with a man 
 who is regarded as responsible, no margin whatever is required, and 
 where a man's responsibility is not acknowledged, I think they require 
 only one or two per cent, margin day by day. 
 
 Q. So that ten thousand dollars margin would enable a man to specu- 
 late in gold to the extent of a million dollars 1 — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State whether, in your opiaion, the Gold Exchange, and the Gold 
 Exchange Bank, and its clearing department, are necessary iustruments 
 in the transaction of business? — A. They are not absolutely neces- 
 sary, but they are labor-saving machines. They enable operators to 
 receive and deliver with less trouble and less risk, and to borrow and 
 lend with less risk than they could do without them. Before they came 
 into use operators did their business through the national banks where 
 they kept their accounts, and it involved the necessity of receiving gold 
 and paying for it by a certified check in currency ; and after that was 
 done it involved the necessity of selling the gold and getting the cur- 
 rency for it, to make good that certification. Now the whole matter is 
 transacted without the use of any certified checks at all. Both the pur- 
 chase and the sale go to the same bank, and are changed from one credit 
 to another. I am not persuaded that this gold clear tug-house is inj urious 
 in its operations and tendency. It is, as I said before, merely a labor- 
 saving machine. Perhaps speculators in gold can operate a little more 
 largely by means of it. 
 
 Q. What was the fact with regard to the facility or difficulty of trans- 
 acting business during the month after the breakdown, when the Gold 
 Exchange Bank was closed ?-^A. Business was done as it had been 
 before the establishment of the gold clearing-house, by getting a certified 
 check, and paying for the gold, and then delivering the gold to a third 
 party, and getting the currency, to make good the certified check. 
 
336 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 By Mr. Smith: 
 
 Q. Does not the existence of such an establishment stimulate specu- 
 lation in gold ? — A. Slightly, I should think. If an operator were com- 
 pelled to go through the triangular process of buying and paying for, 
 and then selliug and delivering, the gold, he certainly could not do so 
 much business, for time would not permit it. Further than that I do not 
 know that it tends to increase or encourage speculation. It is just the 
 same as the bank clearing-house system, a machine of the same character^! 
 and which saves an immense amount of labor. 
 
 Q. What do you think, from your knowledge of the business of New 
 York, is the average daily amount of transactions in gold; I mean real 
 bone fide transactions ? — A. I never have made any very careful esti- 
 mate upon that ; we know that something over half a million of dollars 
 daily is required for the payment of duties ; we know that the duties 
 average about fifty per cent, of the cost of the imports ; consequently 
 the payments in exchange or gold would be about one million a day— 
 that is, one million for the imports, and half a million for the duties. In 
 the exports, gold is not included. 
 
 Q. Do you not send exports abroad for gold ? — A. Tes, but in their 
 case settlement is made by means of bills of exchange, which are sold 
 abroad ; or, if sold in our own market, they are sold for currency. I 
 suppose that in the city of ISew York, at least one-fourth of the imports 
 are sold for gold instead of for currency, which would be, covering du- 
 ties, about half a million of dollars. So that two million dollars of gold 
 per day would seem to be about the amount of gold transactions, out-" 
 side of Texas and our Pacific States. 
 
 Q. Would you not mention anything in reference to bonds and secu- 
 rities ? — A. No ; there are none sold for gold with us. There is no gold 
 involved in the transaction unless the proceeds are brought home gold. 
 Here the bonds are purchased in currency and are sent abroad, and ex- 
 change drawn against them. Taking in everything, I should say that 
 the gold transactions of IJfew York amount to about three millions 
 daily. And in doing business in the market this would be counted 
 twice ; so that on that basis six millions of dollars would be the daily 
 exhibit of regular business transactions in gold. 
 
 Q. What do you understand to be the average annual transactions 
 in the gold clearing-house ? — A. I have never noticed the annual ave- 
 rage struck. 
 
 Q. If the daily average is about seventy millions, as exhibited on the 
 books of the clearing-house, how much of that do you suppose to be le- 
 gitimate business 1 — ^A. I suppose at least half of that, and probably 
 more, would be loans and exchanges growing out of speculative business 
 in gold. For instance : A buys from B a hundred thousand dollars in 
 gold, to be cleared the following day ; it is cleared ; the purchaser has 
 to loan out the gold the next day, and so he loans it every day until he 
 parts with it. So I suppose that more than one-half the transactions of 
 the gold clearing-jhouse consist in the daily borrowiug and lending the 
 exchange of gold for currency, and Dice versa. 
 
 Q. Is there a technical expression in Wall street known as dealing 
 in bonds on a gold basis ; and if so, what does that expression mean ?— 
 A. I have never heard the term used, and have never known of bonds 
 being sold in market for gold. It is the universal custom to sell for 
 currency. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any transaction in bonds, as for instance the pur- 
 chase and sale of United States bonds, which require the handling of 
 gold as a part of the transaction ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION, 337 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 Q. Are you aware of any practice of transferring the purchase of 
 bonds on a gold basis, that is, changing from currency to a gold basis, 
 as a thing usual or customary ? — ^A. I never heard of it at all. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. (Beading from General Butterfleld's testimony as to his purchase 
 of bonds on a gold basis.) State to the committee whether this is 
 a custom with which you are familiar? — A. I am not famihar with 
 it ; but I am inclined to think, if I gather his meaning correctly, that 
 it is a somewhat common transaction with foreign bankers who deal 
 in government bonds for the foreign market. If I understand him 
 his position is this : he is advised of a given price for government 
 bonds in the foreign market — ^that is one element ; he has two other 
 elements here ; the price in the foreign market is in gold ; he has 
 the price in currency here, and gold has also a price here. Thus all the 
 three elements are in his possession. In order to make a transaction 
 that will insure a profit, he buys his bonds and sells an equivalent 
 amount of gold, and his correspondent sells his bonds abroad the same 
 day. There are three transactions which, when completed, give him a 
 certain amount of profit. That I have no doubt is often done; if I have 
 understood what you have read, that is what the witness means. 
 
 Q. Would not, therefore, such a transaction in bonds on foreigii 
 account legitimately increase the amount of gold transactions in this 
 Qountry 1 — A. I should think that, to a certain extent, they would. 
 These are speculative transactions. 
 
 Q. Would a man buyjng bonds here, not for the foreign market, but 
 for himself, have any business to sell gold in that transaction ? — A. No, 
 sir. He might do it with a speculative purpose, and with an uncertainty 
 in the future ; but the case that I have stated is a triangular business 
 transaction which gives him a small profit. 
 
 Q. Suppose you were to have a precisely similar business transaction, 
 and this committee were to ask you whether you had, during the period 
 covering that time, bought or sold gold, or had any dealings in gold, 
 what ought you to answer that would be a truthful answer ? — A. Yes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Could you answer "no," and by any ratiocination that would be 
 still true, cover up your answer? — ^A. No; no nearer than to call white 
 black at the same time. 
 
 Q. Suppose you had ordered a broker to deal in bonds in the way that 
 you have described, that is, on foreign account, and that in the course 
 of his business of doing so he had transacted exactly what you described, 
 would you have been justified in saying that you had not yourself, or 
 through your brokers, been dealing in gold ? — ^A. Clearly not. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any evil results growing out of the present habit 
 of certifying checks ? — ^A. No, sir ; none that are of any magnitude at 
 aU. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with the Tenth National Bank of New York? — 
 A. I am not acquainted with its ofiBcers. I know that there is such a 
 bank. I think that that bank and one or two others rather abused the 
 matter of certifications. 
 
 Q. State how that bank abuses the privilege of certifying checks ? — 
 A. By certifying checks when it has not the money depo'sited. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by money in that sense ? — ^A. I mean when it 
 has not an amount of deposits standing to the credit of the party to the 
 amount of certification. 
 
 H. Rep. 31 ^22 
 
338 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Which deposits may, in part, or in the whole, consist of other cer- 
 tified checks ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. What is there to limit a bank in the amount of its certification ; is 
 there any limitation in the bank laws 1 — A. I think not. My impression 
 is that there is none, even in the national banking law. The proper 
 place to correct any evil of that kind, and to guard against danger, 
 would be in the banking association of New York, what is called the 
 clearing-house. The clearing-house has power to adopt any system of 
 rules for the intercourse of the banks with each other. It is a quad 
 partnership. For example, if the Tenth National Bank, as was reported 
 the morning after the panic, were unable to meet its certifications or to 
 redeem its checks at the clearing-house, the loss, if the bank had become 
 insolvent, would have been distributed jjro rata, in proportion to their 
 capital, among all the associate banks. So, if the banks felt that there 
 was any real danger in certifying checks, I presume they would interpose 
 for their own protection. Bat, I think, with very rare exceptions, there 
 is no danger there. My impression is that the views which the head of 
 the currency department of the country has expressed in his reports 
 have not been financially sound, because they would have led to the 
 entire disuse of certification, which would have increased the cost of 
 banking in New York immensely and increased the hazards. It would 
 have led to the necessity of counting the money for all the transactions that 
 are now settled by certified checks — counting it twice and transporting 
 it twice from one bank to another. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. You think it would be a bad thing for Congress to forbid the cer- 
 tification of checks by national banks ? — A. Very bad. That is one of 
 those labor-saving machines which is just as useful as banking itself. 
 
 By Mr. Jxjdd : 
 Q. Do you apply that to cases in which they have funds or have not 
 funds ? — ^A. I think that their own safety is sufficient to protect them 
 from any serious errors, without any provision of law. The banks in 
 New York have very rarely suffered from over-certification. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Do you know the amount of certifications by the Tenth National 
 Bank on the day of the panic ? — ^A. No, I do not. 
 
 Q. The Tenth National Bank certified to the- amount of $24,000,000 
 on the 23d of September, and $15,000,000 on the 24th ; do you not think 
 that such an amount of certifications aided the parties in the combina- 
 tion to carry on their conspiracy ?— A. My impression is that that was 
 an effect, not a cause. 
 
 By the Chaibman : 
 Q. How came there to be such an amount of checks and currency on 
 hand on those days ; how was such an amount used in the gold market?— 
 A. On the 24th, when the premium on gold went up from 41 or 42 to 60, 
 the parties who were long of it, and from whom those who were bor- 
 rowers had borrowed it, required margins to be put up from 40 to 60. 
 Now, if the amount of gold loaned was $60,000,000, as it is supposed to 
 have been, twenty per cent, upon that would be a very large sum. That 
 is one of the items ; and then there were, besides, absolute payment 
 'transactions. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 339 
 
 Q. How much gold do you think there was in the city of Kew York, 
 outside of the sub-treasury, during those days ? — A. I knew at the time, 
 because it was manifested in the bank exhibits ; I think it was $14,000,000 
 to $15,000,000, 
 
 By Mr. JnDD : ' 
 
 Q. Do you mean actual gold ? — ^A. Oh, no ; there probably were not 
 $3,000,000 of gold, but the certificates of gold were called gold. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you know anything about what could be called a counter-plot 
 in those days against the bull movement in gold ? — A. No, sir ; I know 
 nothing of that sort ; I do not suppose that any existed. 
 
 Q. What do you suppose the course of gold would have been during 
 the month of September if there had been no artificial disturbance ; 
 would it have been upward or downward? — ^A. Its tendency was down- 
 ward. 
 
 Q. How had it been ruling previously to that artificial movement, for 
 a month or so? — A. There were temporary fluctuations, as there always 
 are, but the general tendency was downward. 
 
 Q. Have you no doubt in your own mind that that upward movement 
 was artificial ? — ^A. I have not the slightest doubt of it. 
 
 Q. What did the real business of New York require — a resistance to 
 that movement, or an opposition to it ? — A. I think that the business 
 interest of New York, and of every other place, is promoted by letting 
 the natural laws of trade vindicate their own supremacy, as they will 
 in spite of any efforts to thwart them ; I think such efforts were injurious. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. We have the theory presented here, of which you have probably 
 read, that the enhancing of the price of gold after the crops were ready 
 to be moved would not only increase the price of grain very much, but 
 would give transportation to the railroads, so as to enable them to com- 
 pete with the European grain markets. That is Mr. Fisk's theory, and 
 Mr. Gould's, and Mr. Corbin's. Can you state to the committee the 
 effect of the rise in gold on the crops and on our foreign produce trade, 
 not only in its immediate, but its resulting, effect ? — A. I will give you 
 the same answer that I gave to Mr. Boutwell, in New York, when this 
 theory was first started, and just after it became known that the com- 
 bination for putttug up gold existed in New York. Mr. BoutweU asked 
 me my opinion of that theory. My opinion was then, and is now, that 
 if the situation of our finances and of our foreign trade had been such 
 as to have i)roduced by natural causes any enhancement on the pre- 
 mium on gold, it would have been better for the business of the country, 
 and especially for the agricultural interest of the West; but that an 
 attempt to produce that result by combination, or by any other artificial 
 means, was certain to fail in the end, and that the reaction would pro- 
 duce infinitely more mischief than the temporary advantage ; that it 
 would load parties who were relying upon the permanenfcy of the 
 advance with large quantities of those products, and that, when the 
 thing collapsed, the grain would be left on their hands, and would pro- 
 duce bankruptcy, and that in every way it would be injudicious. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge that there was such a theory as that 
 held in good faith as a doctrine of policy f — ^A. No ; I have not. 
 
 Q. You think that there was such a theory held in good faith ?— A. I 
 think not. There may have been parties who were satisfied that that 
 would be the effect, but I think that the parties who put forward that 
 
340 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 idea were only interested in the effect it would have upon their own 
 pockets. I know that the thing was reported to Mr. BoutweU. 
 
 Q. When was this interview with Mr. BoutweU, that you spoke of ?— 
 A. On his return to Washington from his summer sojourn at home. 
 
 Q. Was that the Hime of the dinner given to Mr. BoutweU at the 
 Union League Club 1 — ^A. That was the time. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. Do you know of any combination or plot to bear gold before this 
 conspiracy to buU it was formed ? — No, I know of none. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. In your judgment, could the advance in gold to the point of 
 enabling the crops to be moved have been legitimately brought about 
 by the government withholding salfes of gold so as to have made it safe? 
 A. My judgment has been that the best policy for the Treasury Depart- 
 ment to pursue is to keep stronger in the ownership of gold. I think it 
 has been rather injurious to the business interests of the country, and 
 especially to the agricultural interests, that so large an amount of gold 
 was sold by the government, which has unquestionably tended to 
 depress gold more rapidly than it would otherwise have fallen. I think 
 the error, if error it be, occurred in the months of June and July. The 
 government was then a free seUer of gold, when the amount in the mar- 
 ket was very large. That depressed the premium quite low. In the 
 autumn less was sold. That of course tended to aid the temporary 
 advance of gold. Since then the government has been selling very 
 freely. I have always felt that the true poUcy for the government to 
 pursue was to keep the amount of gold in the market as nearly uniform 
 as possible. It could not be rendered absolutely uniform, because the 
 government pays out in four large quarterly instaUments the mass of the 
 interest, and that at such periods the gold in the market will . be much 
 larger than at other periods. But the sales of gold by the government 
 should be so timed as to mitigate rather than increase that want of 
 uniformity. In all currencies, whether gold or paper, one of the great- 
 est essentials for the security of the business interests of the country is 
 to have it uniform in amount. 
 
 Q. Was it not announced some time previous to September, early pre- 
 cedent to it, that the treasury would not seU gold in September 1 — A. 
 I think the proposed programme of the department was announced at 
 the beginning of each month, 
 
 Q. What was the programme as announced on the 1st of September ?— 
 A. That I have forgotten ; but the Secretary always reserved the right 
 to accept bids for a larger amount, or to reject them, according to his 
 judgment and discretion. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 Q. What is your judgment as to the policy allowing the Secretary to 
 sell gold at his discretion or caprice ? — A. I have always felt that there 
 might be a' better policy adopted. I presented, in a letter to Senator 
 Conkling two years ago, a plan which I thought then, and think still, 
 would relieve us from most, if not aU, those difQculties from fluctuations 
 in the premium on gold. It was simply for the government to announce 
 that it would sell gold for custom-house purposes at a certain premium 
 for one, two, or three months, and at the end of tiiat term, watching the 
 operations of gold, the amount on hand, and other conditions, to fix the 
 premium for another -period, at the same price or a shade lower, and so 
 go on, dropping the rate of premium each period untU we got back to 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 341 
 
 specie payment. If the market price of gold got below the price fixed 
 by the government, of course the gold for custom-house purposes would 
 be bought in the market; but if the price got above it, then the gold for 
 custom-house purposes would be bought from the government, and in 
 that way there would be a steadiness maintained in the price of gold. 
 
 (Witness hands to the committee a copy of the letter referred to by 
 Mm.) 
 
 By the Ohaibbian : 
 
 Q. Do you think there is any necessity for legislation in reference to 
 certified checks ? — ^A. My impression is that there is no necessity for it. 
 I suppose that if the necessity exists in reference to any banks, it would 
 be in reference to the banks in the city of New York, where the certifi- 
 cations are so large. Take the Fourth National Bank, of which I am a 
 director, and which is regarded as being as free and liberal in its certifi- 
 cations as any bank in the city. I suppose its certifications average 
 seven millions a day, and I believe I am not in error in saying that it 
 has never lost a dollar in that way. We used to certify a very large 
 amount without equivalent deposits before the law was passed prevent- 
 ing that. Since that we have, of course, conformed to the law. 
 
 Q. From your acquaintance with the Gold Exchange, and with its 
 mode of doing business, is it an institution whose operations can be 
 enforced by law ? — ^A. I think that is a question in doubt in minds of 
 the legal profession in New York. It is a question which has never been 
 decided. I understand it to be pending at present. As a layman, I 
 should express the opinion that the courts would enforce the rules of 
 the board. I have never been a member of that board. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge that any officer of the government was, 
 directly or indirectly, interested in or concerned in the movement in gold 
 during what was known as the panic week in September? — ^A. I have 
 no personal knowledge on the subject. 
 
 Q. Have you any farther information that you can give the commit- 
 tee, touching this general subject, which you think could be of interest 
 to the country? — A. I do not know of any. 
 
 Q. Has Congress any power to protect the people from that class of 
 fraud? — A. It is to be hoped so, because the community is getting in a 
 very dangerous position. If men who have the power of controlling 
 large amounts of money can with impunity combine together to dis- 
 turb, to a degree that becomes dangerous to business, the volume of the 
 circulating medium, whether that be in paper or in gold, I regard that as 
 one of the most threatening dangers to the fature of the country that has 
 ever manifested itself 1 know of no way to correct it except by proper 
 le^slation to punish for conspiracy against the public good. I suppose 
 it is in the power of Congress to frame a law that would reach such 
 a transaction. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any law of the State of New York, under which 
 such a transaction as that in September last can be punished? — A. It 
 is the impression that we have such a law if it were properly enforced. 
 I think the law should make such combinations as infamous as possi- 
 ble. All else may be safely left to the natural laws of trade. 
 
 Q. Could such operations in gold have taken place except when 
 specie payments are suspended? — ^A. I see no reason why they might 
 not. I think the return to specie payment wiU not increase our secu- 
 rity against these combinations. They are just as liable to attack gold 
 or paper by locking it up; and in doing that they can affect the market 
 price of everything. 
 
 Q. What do you suppose would be the feasibility of enforcing such a 
 
342 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATlbN. 
 
 law against combinations? — ^A. From the best consideration that I have 
 been able to give the subject, I certainly believe it feasible, and I be- 
 lieve that public sentiment would sanction, and, as far as possible, co- 
 operate in, the punishment of such acts. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 Q. "Would you not extend that to all combinations — ^in wheat, coffee, 
 tea, bank stock, railroad stock, and everything else? Are they not all 
 liable to be subject to conspiracies? — A. All such conspiracies are inju- 
 rious, but not in the same degree; nor is the magnitude of the offense 
 anything in comparison with that of tampering with a circulating me- 
 dium of the country, in which every citizen is interested. Every citizen 
 is interested in the stability and uniformity of volume, both of our 
 paper currency and of our- coin. They enter into the business of every 
 man, and every man therefore is interested in protecting them from any 
 violent disturbances of that kind. 
 
 Washington, February 1, 1870. 
 
 Geoegb S. Botjtwell, Secretary of the Treasury, sworn and ex- 
 amined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. State to the committee what sales of gold, with the amounts 
 and dates, you have made since you have been Secretary of the Treasury.— 
 Answer. I am unable, at present, to give you the amount of sales since the 
 1st of January. I have a tabular statement of the sales made previ- 
 ous to the 1st of January. From the 29th of April, when the first sale 
 was made after I came into the Treasury Department, up to and includ- 
 ing the 31st of December, the sales made directly by me and by Gen- 
 eral Spinner, who invests the interest that accumulates upon the bonds 
 purchased and owned by the government, amounted to $53,399,000. The 
 table which 1 present to the committee shows the dates of the sales. 
 (The table is annexed to the testimony.) 
 
 Q. Was there any month in that time in which there was no sale?— 
 A. TSo, sir. The sales in April only amounted to one million. 
 
 Q. State to the committee what has been your mode of giving orders 
 to sell gold, whether by letter or telegraph ; and usually at what time?— 
 A. Usually by letter to the assistant treasurer at New York, and by 
 telegraph through the Associated Press, and another association of the 
 press here of which Mr. Evans has charge. Since I have known that 
 he was in chai'ge of dispatches to certain newspapers, I have also given 
 him the dispatch as well as Mr. Gobright. I have given it to the 
 agents of the press. There may have been exceptions in the beginning, 
 but that has been the general practice. I have usually sent these dis- 
 patches out on Sunday nights, either the last Sunday night of the 
 month or the first Sunday night of an opening month, in order that dis- 
 pat<3hes might not in any way be made use of, as possibly they might 
 be if tt^ey were sent on a business day. I did in the beginning send 
 one or Wo dispatches on business days; and, whether they were mis- 
 used or nbtfthe circumstance gave rise to saspicion that they were 
 misused. I hav<; since generally written a letter myself on Sunday 
 evening, in season far the mail, to the assistant treasurer at New York, 
 giving him instructions, and have at the same time given to the two 
 agents of the press the substance of that communication, so that the 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 343 
 
 newspapers on the following morning wonld announce the sales of gold 
 and the purchases of bonds for the month. 
 
 Q. So that, as a matter of fact, the newspapers would have the intel- 
 ligence sooner than the assistant treasurer? — A. That has been the 
 design, and generally, I suppose, has been the fact. 
 
 Q. At what time have the sales been made ; on Monday?— A. No, sir. 
 Our sales of gold for the sinking fund purpose have usually been on 
 Thursday. Por a time we sold gold on Wednesday for the special fund, 
 but more recently, when we sold two millions in one week on account or 
 the special fund, we have sold one million on Tuesday and one million 
 on Friday. 
 
 Q. And these sales have been made by means of sealed bids? — A. Yes, 
 sir; these were the instructions, to receive sealed proposals up to 12 
 o'clock on the day of sale, and then to open them in the presence of the 
 people in the room. 
 
 Q. So that it was a public matter? — A. Yes; and I believe that those 
 instructions were followed. I was present on one occasion when the 
 bids were opened, and that was the fact then, so far as I saw. 
 
 Q. State to the committee what purchases of bonds were made in 
 consequence of the sale of gold. — A. Before giving a direct answer to 
 that question, I ought perhaps to state that I have proceeded in the 
 sale of gold and in the purchase of bonds upon the plan of selling two 
 million dollars of gold a month, or rather $26,000,000 a year, on account 
 of the sinking fund, and of purchasing about $2,000,000, or at the rate, 
 as near as might be, of $26,000,000 a year, of bonds, for the sinking fund. 
 But it is also true that the proceeds of the sale of gold on this account 
 have been received into the treasury with other receipts, except that 
 they are specified. The payments for the bonds designed for the sinking 
 fund have been made out of the treasury, but the bonds themselves, 
 to the amount of about $500,000 a week, have been marked as belonging 
 to the sinking fund, and have been kept separate as the sinking fund, 
 under act of 1862 ; being a substantial compliance, as I understand it, 
 with thg requirements of that act. The proceeds of the gold sold in 
 excess of $26,000,000 a year have been received into the treasury, and 
 the bonds purchased in excess of those pm'chased for the sinking fund 
 have been regarded as a special fund and have been so marked, and the 
 account has been kept separate from the sinking fund in the treasury. 
 The sijecial purchases have not corresponded in amount with the pro- 
 ceeds of the sales of gold in excess of what has been sold on account of 
 the sinking fund, but we have purchased bonds, in excess of those pur- 
 chased for the sinking fund, according to the means of the treasury 
 derived from all sources. On the last day of December, the bonds 
 belonging to the sinking fund amounted to over $22,000,000. That 
 includes the amount purchased by the Secretary of the Treasury directly 
 from funds in the treasury, and also includes the amount purchased by 
 General Spinner (who by an order of the Secretary of the Treasury was 
 made custodian of the sinking fund) with the interest on bonds pre- 
 viously purchased. The other bonds purchased by the United 
 States amounted on the last day of December to $64,908,350, and that 
 amount represented not only direct purchases by the Secretary of the 
 Treasury, but also the .purchases made by General Spinner, as custodian 
 of that fund, from the interest accrued and collected upon the bonds 
 purchased by the Secretary of the Treasury. This table (annexed to 
 the testimony) exhibits the bonds purchased upon both accounts from 
 the 12th of May, when the first purchase was made, to the 30th of 
 December, when the last purchase was made in the calendar year 1869. 
 
344: GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 The total amount of bonds purchased is $88,478,800. There will appear' 
 to be a slight discrepancy between the amounts purchased, as shown by 
 this table, and the amount held in the two funds, as appears from our 
 monthly statement; but I suppose that that is due to the circumstance 
 that the purchases made on the 30th of December had not been reported, 
 nor the bonds received from New York, so as to go into the monthly 
 statement. There is also another discrepancy, due to the fact that this 
 table does not show the bonds purchased by General Spinner. It only 
 represents the bonds purchased by the Secretary of the Treasury. 
 
 Q. These two explanations, going with that table, will make the matter 
 apparent, will they? — A. Yes, sir; I think so. There are other facts 
 presented in the table. It presents, for instance, the average rate of 
 each purchase, and the total average, &c. 
 
 Q. Please state the circumstances of your order of September 24 to 
 sell gold ; how you came to give that order, when it was determined, 
 when the order was sent, and how sent. — A. I was in Massachusetts 
 the larger part of the month of August, and returned to Washington 
 about the middle of September ; I am not sure about the day. I stopped in 
 New York one day and, perhaps, a part of another. While there I be- 
 came satisfied that there were speculative movements in gold, the nature 
 of which 1 did not learn more than that there appeared to be an opinion 
 that Pisk and Gould were concerned in it. I heard what was said and 
 got what information I could about it. I came to Washington, and on 
 the 23d of September, the Thursday preceding the Friday, I became 
 satisfied that the matter was very serious. I think gold was reported 
 that day at about 145, and I was apprehensive from what I heard that 
 it might advance to a still higher price the next day. I went that 
 evening to see the President and told him what the state of the market 
 appeared to be from the information I had received. We had a consult- 
 ation about it, the result of which was that if gold advanced materially 
 the next day, it would be our duty to sell, not for the purpose of forcing 
 down the price of gold as a primary and specific object, but because we 
 thought the business of the country was in danger. Our custom receipts 
 had fallen off, and I was myself apprehensive (I do not recollect that I 
 mentioned jt to the President) that if banking institutions should 
 become involved and break, we might have a repetition of such disas- 
 ters as we had in 1857. I left the President without any specific under- 
 standing as to what should be done, except in a general way that if the 
 excitement continued and gold advanced, it would be our duty to sell. 
 
 Q. But still without a purpose as to the amount, or even as to the 
 fact 1—A. No ; there was no specific understanding as to the circum- 
 stances under which gold should be sold, except that if the excitement 
 continued and there was an advance it would be our duty to interfere. 
 But the President was anxious, as I was, that we should not interfere 
 unless it seemed to be an absolute necessity for the protection of the 
 business interests of the country. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Was there any rate of gold fixed on at that consultation at which 
 it was advisable to sell 1 — A. There was no price named, as I recollect, 
 at which we would sell, but simply there was an understanding that if 
 the advance continued and that, in our judgment, it shpuld threaten the 
 business interests of the country, it would be our duty to interfere. 
 
 Q. The President and yourself were in perfect accord on that point ?— 
 A. We were in perfect accord ; there was no difference between us. On 
 the morning of the 24th I received various dispatches from New York, 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 345 
 
 some of them from Mr. Batterfleld, the assistant treasurer, and some 
 from other persons, merchants and brokers, (I do not recollect their 
 names,) all to one effect, that gold was advancing, and that the price was 
 being rapidly forced from 150 to 158 and perhaps to 160. 
 
 Q. Have you any of those dispatches that you can make part of your 
 testimony ? — A. Here are three dispatches from Mr. Butterfleld. The 
 dispatches from other persons I have not brought, nor do I remember 
 from whom they were. Here is the first dispatch I received on the 24th 
 of SeiJtember, from Mr. Butterfleld : 
 
 [By telegram from New York.] 
 
 Fhanklin Telegraph Company, September 24, 1869. 
 To Hon. G. S. BoDTWELi,. 
 
 I am requested to represent to you condition of affairs here. Gold is 150 ; much 
 feeling, and accusations of government complicity. The propositions of Weatherspoon, 
 Duncan, Sherman & Co., and Seligman, if accepted, would relieve exchange market 
 and be judicious. Should he done by telegraph. 
 
 DAN'L BUTTEEFIELD. 
 46—1 48. 
 
 This dispatch was received before the order for the sale of gold was 
 issued 
 
 Q. What was the proposition referred to in that dispatch? — ^A. I pre- 
 sent the committee with a copy of the letter from Duncan, Sherman, 
 & Co. I thought it a letter which I should not answer, and, as I recol- 
 lect, I did not answer it in any form. Here is another dispatch from 
 Mr. Butterfleld, ot the same date. It was also received before the order 
 for the sale of gold, but I cannot say at what time : 
 
 [By telegraph from New York.] 
 
 Peanklin TEtEGRAPH COMPANY, SepixMber 24, 1869. 
 To Hon. G. S. Boutwell. 
 Gold over one hundred and sixty, (160.) Moving up every hour. 
 
 DAN'L BUTTEEFIELD. 
 11— coU. 43. 
 
 Here is another dispatch of the same date : 
 
 [By telegraph from New York.l 
 
 Fkanklist Telegraph Company, Septemler 24, 1869. 
 To Hon. G. S. BouTWEii. 
 Price of gold at eleven o'clock and twenty (11.20) minutes is one hundred fifty-eight. 
 
 DAN'L BUTTEEFIELD. 
 15 — 55. Now 162. — Garland, operator. 
 
 I cannot say which of these two last dispatches was received first. 
 Upon the receipt of those dispatches, and something after 11 o'clock by 
 our time, I went over to the President and told him what the state of 
 the market was, upon the information that I had. I went over with the 
 idea of saying to him that I thought the time had come when we must 
 interfere. I had a very strong conviction upon that point. I stated to 
 him the condition of the market. Whether I said to him first that we 
 ought to sell three million dollars of gold, or whether he said that he 
 thought we ought -to sell five million dollars, I cannot say; but he ex- 
 pressed the opinion, almost at the beginning of the conversation, that we 
 ought to sell $5,000,000. I recollect expressing the opinion that we 
 should sell $3,000,000, because that was the amount that I had in my 
 mind when I left the ofiflce, and I thought it would be sufficient for the 
 
346 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 purpose. "We had very little conversation "beyond that. I returned 
 almost immediately, without saying to him whether I would order the 
 sale of $5,000,000, or of $3,000,000, or of any other sum, except that it 
 was agreed that gold should be sold. Upon going back to my olBce, I 
 came to the conclusion that I would advertise the sale of $4,000,000; 
 and immediately upon my return to my office I dictated a dispatch, 
 which was taken by Mr. Bartlett, my short-hand writer. The following 
 is a copy : 
 
 Tkeasuky Depaetment, September 24, 18C9. 
 Daniel BuTTEEFrELD, Assistant Treamrer U. S., New York : 
 
 Sell four millions ($4,000,000) gold to-morrow, and buy four millions ($4,000,000) 
 bonds. 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, 
 
 Secretary Treaamy. 
 Charge to department, 
 gent 11.43 a. m. 
 
 This dispatch is marked, " Sent 11.42 a. m.," but Mr. Bartlett has 
 stated to me within a few days that he made an allowance for the time 
 that he supposed it would take to deliver the message at the telegraph 
 office at the other side of the street. He says he advanced the time two 
 or three minutes on account of sending it across the street. Then ap- 
 prehending that there might be trouble, or that some interested par^ 
 might get possession of it, I sent by the Franklin line also the following 
 dispatch : 
 
 [By Franklin line. — ^Telegram.] 
 
 Tbeasury Depabtment, September 24, 1869. 
 Gen. Daniel Butterfield, Assistant Treasurer V. S., New York : 
 
 Sell four miUions ($4,000,000) gold to-morrow, and buy four millions ($4,000,000) 
 bonds. 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, 
 
 Secretary of the Treasury, 
 Charge to department. — G. S. B. 
 Sent 11.45 a. m. 
 
 This is marked, " Sent 11.45 a. m." 
 
 Q. Did you also write a letter at the same time ? — A. Not at that 
 time. I think I wrote a letter during the evening. 
 
 Q. Did you receive an acknowledgment of the dispatch, or any an- 
 swer from General Butterfields, howing that the dispatch was received?— 
 A. Tes, sir. Here is a dispatch from General Butterfield : 
 
 [By telegraph &om New York.] 
 
 Fkakkun TEtEGRAPH COMPANY, September 24, 1869. 
 To Hon. G. S. Boutweix. 
 
 Dispatch received. Notice made public at once. Gold, for cash, fallen one forty at 
 twelve (12) o'clock. 
 
 D. BUTTEEFIELD. 
 17—61. 
 
 The hour of the dispatch is not given, and it does not appear what 
 time it was received. I have no recollection sufflfciently accurate to 
 testify about the time, except that it was received very soon, I believe, 
 after our own dispatch went. 
 
 Q. Did you receive any other dispatches from General Butterfield 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION.' 347 
 
 during the day ? — ^A. He]% are three other dispatches of September the 
 24th: 
 
 [By telegraph from New York.] 
 
 Franklin Teiegeaph Company, September 24, 1869. 
 To Hon. G. S. Boutweix. 
 Shall I anticipate registered November interest of hanks ? 
 
 ^ ^ DAN'L BUTTEEFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Treaaurer. 
 8—40. 
 
 Answered by letter of same date. 
 
 [By telegraph from New York.] 
 
 Franklin Telegraph Company, September 24, 1869. 
 To Hon. G. S. Boctwell. 
 
 Dispatch receired too late for first notices, as you did not specify whether gold or 
 bonds. I have annomiced that right was reserved to accept excess of bids over fonr 
 millions for either gold or bonds. Send me detailed instructions by mail to-night. 
 
 DAN'L BUTTEEFffiLD. 
 43—139. 
 
 [By telegraph from New York.] 
 
 Franklin Telegraph Company, September^, 1869. 
 To Hon. G. S. Boutwell. 
 
 I should be reinforced with currency for to-morrow by express to-night. My balance 
 is too small to execute orders under the rules of business here. Can I trespass on 
 package of reserve sent by General Spinner, Wednesday, if necessary ? My letter to- 
 night will explain. Answer by this liiie. It is more prompt than any other telegraph 
 company. 
 
 DAN'L BUTTEEFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer. 
 44—142. 
 
 The dispatch to which that refers was this : 
 
 Treasury Department, September 24, 1869. 
 Gen. Daniel Butterfibld, Assistant Treasurer U. S., New York : 
 
 Say in notice that the government reserves the right to accept all bids, even in 
 excess of four millions, ($4,000,000.) 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, 
 
 Seoretary of the Treasury. 
 Charge department. — G. S. B. 
 
 I intended that to relate to bonds exclusively when I dictated it ; but 
 upon his receiving it, of course he did not know whether it referred to 
 bonds or gold. Upon the receipt of his dispatch I said : 
 
 Treasury Department, September 24, 1869. 
 Daniel Butterfibld, U. 8. Assistant Treasurer, New Yorh : 
 
 The government reserves the right to accept bids for the sale of bonds in excess of 
 four millions, ($4,000,000.) Sale of gold to-morrow not to exceed |4,000,000. 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, 
 
 Secretary of (lie Treasury. 
 Charge to department. — 6. S. B. 
 
 Q. Was anybody present at your interview with the President on the 
 morning pf the 24th? — A. No, sir; I think not. 
 
 Q. Had you conversed with anybody in the treasury before you went 
 over to see the President in relation to your purpose? — A. Ko, sir; not 
 upon that subject, giving any opinion as to my iatentions. 
 
348 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. You had made no expression of your subject to anybody ?— A. 
 Not that 1 am aware of. 
 
 Q. Was anybody present when you dictated your dispatch to your 
 stenographer ? — A. My recollection is that there was no person present. 
 
 Q. Have you any reason to believe that the wires were tapped, or 
 have you made any investigation of the subject ? — A, I have not made 
 any investigation. I have heard such rumors afloat, but I have not in- 
 vestigated the subject. 
 
 By Mr. JoNBS : 
 
 Q. Have you any reason to believe that your orders were not as 
 promptly executed by the assistant treasurer in New York as they 
 should have been? — ^A. No, sir; without having any evidence upon the 
 point, except from the character of the dispatches that I received and 
 from such information as was open to the public generally, my own im- 
 pression was, finally, that the dispatch was transmitted without interrup- 
 tion to him. Whether it may have been taken off and obtained simul- 
 taneously, or even earlier, by somebody else, I cannot say. I have no 
 reason to suppose that it was, except that the suggestion was made. 
 
 Q. Have you any recollection now that there was unnecessary 
 delay? — A. No, sir; my impression was then, and is now, that it was 
 promptly transmitted, and that General Butterfleld gave prompt notice; 
 but I have not that information which amounts to positive certainty on 
 that point. I have no reason to doubt, however, that that was the 
 fact. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. To whom did you intrust these dispatches for delivery at the tele- 
 graph office? — A. I cannot say; I think Mr. Bartlett, my clerk, deliv- 
 ered them to the young man, the messenger, who has charge at my door. 
 His name is Johnson, but he has two or three subordinates. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. I suppose these messages were sealed before they left your office 1— 
 A. I cannot say about that, as they were not delivered by my own 
 hand. I dictated them and signed them, and Mr. Bartlett had charge 
 of them afterward. All that I know is that we felt the importance of 
 having them transmitted promptly and secretly. 
 
 Q. When did you get news first of the breakdown in gold ? — ^A. I 
 think this dispatch from General Butterfleld was the first information 
 of it I received ; and yet there were other dispatches sent to the oface, 
 I think, from other parties not connected with the government, who tel- 
 egraphed the price of gold. 
 
 Q. What was your impression that day as to the relation in point of 
 time of the delivery of your order to the breaking down in gold, as to 
 which occurred first ? — A. That day I thought the breakdown in gold 
 was due entirely to our offer to sell. 
 
 Q. That is, that the offer was published, and then that the breakdown 
 came. — A. Yes, that was my impression that day; afterward I had 
 some doubts about it, as to whether the breakdown did not occur be- 
 fore, but I never was satisfied upon that point. 
 
 Q. During those days of panic did you receive from Mr. Pisk and Mr. 
 Gould, or from either of them, a proposition to make a loan to them, to 
 help to steady the market; if so, what was it? — A. I received a com- 
 munication from Mr. Jay Gould, of which I will furnish a copy to the 
 committee. I find inclosed in a letter from General Butterfleld, dated 
 September 23, the proposition of Duncan, Sherman & Co., just referred 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 349 
 
 to. I did not, as I now recollect, answer this letter of Duncan, Sher- 
 man & Co ; and if I alluded to it in any letter to Mr. Butterfleld, it was 
 to decline it. Whether I did or not I cannot say without looking into 
 the correspondence ; at any rate nothing was done about it in any form. 
 I will also furnish the committee copies of several letters" from Mr. 
 Butterfleld, dated the 24th September, and relating most of them to the 
 events of that day. In consequence of that letter of the 24;th, and of 
 the dispatch of the 25th, my attention was called for the first time so 
 seriously as to comprehend it. I may have known it before, but I did 
 not, up to that time, comprehend the practice that prevailed in the sub- 
 treasury of receiving certified checks from purchasers of gold and 
 others dealing with the sub-treasury. Under the circumstances in 
 which we were then acting 1 was very apprehensive of trouble, and I 
 telegraphed to Mr. Butterfield by both lines as follows : 
 
 Tebasitky Dbpabtment, September 25, 1868. 
 General Daniel Buttekfield, Assistant Treasurer, New York : 
 Gold must be paid for on delivery in all cases. Acknowledge receipt of dispatch 
 
 immediately. 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Secretary Treasury. 
 Charge department. — 6. S. B. 
 
 (Witness here read from the correspondence attached to his testi- 
 mony.) 
 
 In reply to Mr. Butterfield's letter of the 24th (numbered 27) I tele- 
 graphed to him ou the morning of the 25th of September as follows : 
 
 Franklin line, telegram 203. 
 
 Washington, Septemter 25, 1869. 
 To Daniel BurrERPrBLD, Assistant Treasurer, New Tork. 
 
 Twenty-seven correct ; subject to limitation in letter of last evening. 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Secretary. 
 Charge treasury. — G. S. B. 
 
 To Same, &c., &c. 
 Twenty-six approved. 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Secretary. 
 Charge treasury. — G. S. B. 
 
 On the morning of the 25th I sent the following dispatch to Mr. But- 
 terfleld: 
 
 FrankUn line, {copy,) telegram 202. 
 
 Washington, September 25, 1869. 
 To Daniel Butterfield, Assistant Treasurer, New York. 
 Do not deliver gold except for money. Have you received my letter of last evening ? 
 ' GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Secretary. 
 
 Charge treasury.— G. S. B. 
 
 In reply to that I received the following dispatch : 
 
 [By telegraph from New York.] 
 
 Franklin Telegraph Company, Se/ptemiber 25, 1869. 
 To Hon. G. S. Botjtwell. 
 
 Letter and dispatches received. Price of gold last night late, one hundred and 
 thirty-two. 
 
 DANIEL BUTTEEFIELD, 
 
 Asnstant Treasurer. 
 15-55, 
 
350 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 On the morning of the 25th, before the sale of gold, I received from 
 Mr, Butterfield the following dispatch : 
 
 [By telegraph from New York, 25th.] 
 
 FKANKLr»j TELEGR.tpn COMPANY, September 25, 18G9, 
 To Hon. G. S. Boutwbll. 
 
 Committee from Gold Exchange have waited on me and asked suspension of gale of 
 gold and purchase of bonds. They say if gold is sold below 35, or thereabouts, it will 
 produce disaster. My own opinion is that I should make pubUo your instructiona in 
 letter and poUoy, as in twenty-seven (27) last night. Then go ahead. I have kept 
 your instructions secret. Answer. 
 
 DANIEL BUTTERFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer, 
 65—205. 
 
 The following is my dispatch in reply : 
 
 [W. U. telegram.— Cipher.] 
 
 Treasury Department, Washington, September 25, 1869. 
 Hon. Daniel Botterfield, Assistant Treasurer, New Tork : 
 
 You may exercise your discretion about suspending sales. If best, you may r^ect all 
 bids under thirty-four, (34.) I am not anxious to sell gold. If business wUl be injured, 
 omit sales for to-day. If you do not sell gold you must not buy bonds. 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Secretary. 
 Charge dep't.— G. S. B. 
 
 Here is another dispatch from me to him : 
 
 [W. U. telegram, to be sent in cipher.] 
 
 Treasury Department, September 25, 1869. 
 General Daniel Butterfield, Assistant Treasurer, New Tork : 
 
 If price is not above thirty-two (32) decline aU bids ; if between thirty-two (32) and 
 thirty-four (34) accept — amount between one (1) and two (2) millions. Unless above 
 thirty-four (34) limit sale to two millions (2,000,000) or less. 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Secretary Treasury. 
 Charge dep't.— G. S. B. 
 
 And here is another : 
 
 [W. U. telegram.] 
 
 Treasury Department, September 25, 1869. 
 General Daniel Butterfield, Assistant Treasurer, New Tork : 
 Eeport to me prices bid for gold before awards are made. 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Secretary Treasury. 
 Charge treasury. — 6. S. B. 
 
 Here is his dispatch in relation to sales of gold : 
 
 [The Western Union Telegraph Company.— Dated New York, September 25, 1869. Re- 
 ceived at comer Fourteenth street and Pennsylvania avenue, 12.41 p. m.] 
 
 To Hon. George S. Boutwbll, Secretary Treasury. 
 
 Bids opened under your dispatch directing sale between thirty-two (32) and thirty- 
 four, (34,) and only two millions (2,000,000) to be sold. Second (2d) dispatch too late 
 for suspension. Bids of gold nine millions (9,000,000) and over at rates from one hon- 
 di-ed three (103) up to one hundred thirty-four, (134.) Have announced two millions 
 (2,000,000) will be sold at from thirty-two (32) to thirty-four, (34.) Offerings of gold 
 between thirty-two (32) and thirty-four, (34) two and three-quarters millions (2,750,000.) 
 Offerings of bonds amount to six millions four hundred thousand, (6,400,000,) at prices 
 from one hundred sixteen (116) seventeen (17) to one hundred twenty-one, (121.) Shall 
 I accept any more bonds than the amount realized from the sale of gold ? I think it 
 would be weU to accept four millions (4,000,000) of bonds in the present condition of 
 affairs. 
 
 DANIEL BUTTERFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Treaswrer. 
 
 128 collect 394.— S. N. 
 
GOED PANIC INVESTIGATION. 351 
 
 My answer to the last part of Ms dispatch is as follows : 
 
 Western Union Telegraph Compauy, September 25, 1869. 
 To General Daniel Butteri'IELD, Assistant Treasurer U. S., New York : 
 Accept bids for bonds to the amount of three millions, (3,000,000.) 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Secretary Treasury. 
 Charge dep't.— G. S. B. 
 
 Q. Was there anything upon the face of the transaction that showed 
 it to be a good thing not to accept bids for over $4,000,000 of gold ? — 
 A. I had in my mind a reason for such a suggestion. It was that there 
 was considerable stringency in the money market, or there were appre- 
 hensions of a scarcity of money ; and I could understand that people 
 engaged in financial affairs in New York should desire the government 
 to pay out as much money into the market as possible. Here is another 
 dispatch from Mr. Butterfield : 
 
 [The Western Union Telegraph Company. Dated New York, September 25, 1869. Ee 
 ceived at comer Fourteenth street and Pemjsylvania avenue 30^ p. m.j 
 
 To Hon. George S. Boctweix, Secretary Treasury: 
 
 Dispatch received. Two millions (2,000,000) gold sold. Three miUionB (3,000,000) 
 bonds accepted. 
 
 DANIEL BUTTEEFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer. 
 
 On the same day I received the following dispatch : 
 
 [By telegraph fi?om New York, 25.] 
 
 Franklin Telegraph Company, Septemler 25, 1869. 
 To Hon. 6. S. Boutwell : 
 
 Gold-room closed and adjourned until Monday. Grold Exchange clearing-house make 
 no settlements vmtil Monday. 
 
 DAN'L BUTTEEFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer. 
 16—58. 
 
 Q. State what you said, if anything, in regard to Jay Gould's letter 
 to youl — A. My recollection is that I said nothing. 
 
 Q. State to the committee whether there was anything in the official 
 conduct of Mr. Butterfield to lead you to suppose that he was in any 
 way interested in gold or bonds during any of those days of the panic, or 
 immediately previous? — A. If you mean to confine your inquiry to the 
 time up to and including the 25th of September, I will answer, no. 
 There was nothing that had awakened any suspicion in my own mind. 
 I had heard charges or suggestions made that he was concerned in the 
 speculations ; but they were not of a character to produce any impres- 
 sion upon my mind, and they did not. During the events of the 24th and 
 25th, I did not suppose that he had any connection with the transactions, 
 except what was official and proper. 
 
 By Mr. Cox, (at the request of General Butterfield as per letter 
 on file:) 
 Q. Have you any knowledge or reason to suppose that General But- 
 terfield had at any time, from you or any of the officers of the Treasury, 
 any information or advice of the intended policy in the purchase or sales 
 of bonds or gold, that would have given him any notice in advance of 
 the public so as to make purchases or sales for his own advantage ?-^A. 
 I have no reason to believe that he had any such knowledge. Early in 
 the season we transmitted some dispatches, I think, ordering the sale of 
 
352 GOLD PANIC INYESTIGATI'ON. 
 
 gold and the purchase of bonds, which may not have been simultaneously 
 given to newspapers. This was before we had seen the objection to 
 sending them direct to the assistant treasurer, and to him alone ; but I 
 think there was only a small number of such cases, when we flrst com- 
 menced the business of selling gold and buying bonds. Very soon I 
 came to the conclusion that the announcement of purchases and sales 
 should be made through the Associated Press here simultaneously with 
 the transmission of the orders by mail to the assistant treasurer, so that 
 the public at large should be informed in the morning papers of the pur- 
 pose of the department for the ensuing month, before the letter ordering 
 the assistant treasurer to make sales and purchases would be received 
 by him. But I think there were one or more instances in the beginning, 
 when in the ordinary way I sent to the assistant treasurer an order and 
 left it to him to make the announcement in New Tork. I am not sure 
 that there was even one such a case ; but if there was there was only a 
 very small number. 
 
 Q. Was that rule of yours to give information to the Associated Press 
 simultaneously with the assistant treasurer, in consequence of any sus- 
 picion you had of General Butterfleld? — A. Not the least. It was 
 because of suggestions made in the newspapers that parties obtained 
 advantage; and therefore it was that I sent the dispatches on Sunday 
 evening, so as to avoid having anything to do with the business there. 
 
 Q. State whether General Butterfleld has ever attempted, by letter 
 or otherwise, to influence in any manner such purchases or sales or their 
 policy 1 — A. Of course I cannot say what he may have attempted to do 
 through letters which he has written. I can only say that I never dis- 
 covered in the letters which I received- from him any purpose to iniiu- 
 ence, improperly, the action of the department, in reference to the sales 
 of gold and the purchase of bonds. I think the correspondence will 
 show that he occasionally gave some information or stated some facts 
 as to the condition of business or of the money market in New Tork ; 
 but his motive in doing it I cannot speak of. 
 
 Q. What was the character of General Butterfield's administration of 
 the office of assistant treasurer for efficiency, integrity, and otherwise ; 
 and how did he discharge his duties ? — A. 1 should say that his admin- 
 istration of the office was vigorous, efficient, and on sound business prin- 
 ciples, as far as his adininistration was disclosed to me. I speak now of 
 the administration of the office independent of any circumstance con- 
 nected with these gold transactions. I think he introduced some 
 changes into the management of the office that were beneficial. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. State in that same connection whether, on his leaving the office, 
 you found the accounts in every way right, and the full amount of funds 
 of all sorts in the sub-treasury, as you ought to have found them ? — A. 
 There was a committee appointed to make the examination, and that 
 committee has made a report. I have not myself examined the report; 
 but I am informed that it shows that the cash and funds in the oflice 
 were correct. 
 
 Q. Please state to the committee what led to the resignation, and the 
 acceptance thereof, of General Butterfield's position as assistant treas- 
 urer in New Tork 1 — A. I should like, in that connection, to furnish the 
 committee with the correspondence on the subject. (The correspondence 
 is annexed to the testimony.) I wiU state what I think will appear from 
 the correspondence, that my letter to him suggesting that some explana- 
 tion or statement of his alleged connection with the gold transg,otions 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 353 
 
 that culminated on the 24th of September was rendered necessary by 
 the publication in one of the New York papers — I think iu the New York 
 Sun — of a letter from Mr. Lane, charging him in some form of language 
 with being concerned in the arrangement which culminated on the 24th 
 of September. Mr. Banfleld, the Solicitor of the Treasury, was sent to 
 New York on that subject, and had interviews with Mr. Butteriield, and 
 learned something of the condition of public sentiment there which, as 
 reported to me, was very strong in the opinion that he had been con- 
 nected with the gold speculation. I ought to say that, while I had no 
 sufficient testimony showing that he was concerned in the combination, 
 and while my own mind was in great doubt whether he was implicated 
 in it, I was clear in the opinion that his usefulness in that office was so 
 diminished, and the public mind was so strong in the opinion that he was 
 implicated, that it was a duty on the part of the government to ask him to 
 resign, even if he were innocent. I thought it was one of those cases 
 where, as a public officer, I was bound to insist on having a man in that 
 position on whom such suspicions did not rest, although they might be 
 unfounded, and although it would be a great personal sacrifice to him 
 to leave the office under such circumstances. Yet still it was my duty 
 to insist upon it. How .far the correspondence will disclose that expres- 
 sion of opinion I cannot say, because I have not read it of late. I only 
 know that my efforts were directed to a change in the office with as lit- 
 tle personal annoyance or humiliation to Mr. Butterfleld as was possible 
 under the circumstances. I think that there is one letter to General 
 Butterfleld sent by Mr. Banfield, which was not actually delivered to 
 him. This letter was dated, I think, October 22. (This date is fixed 
 from subsequent examination of the copy of letter.) 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Were these facts presented to you indicating his complicity in the- 
 gold transactions, or did you request his resignation from mere rumors, 
 only, from newspaper allegations and charges ? — A. The statements in 
 that letter of Mr. Lane were very specific. Mr. Butterfleld came here, 
 and in conversation explained some of the matters alluded to there, and. 
 perhaps denied others. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Can you state how long Mr. Butterfleld was retained in the office 
 after these transactions? — A. I should rather rely upon the record for 
 that. It was some little time, probably three or four weeks. 
 
 Q. Was his retention in office for so many weeks after those transac- 
 tions in consequence of your failure to get a successor 1 — ^A. We had 
 some difficulty in that respect ; that is to say, there was some delay 
 grovring out of that circumstance. 
 
 Q. Was he retained in the office for so long a time in consequence of 
 any request of the Executive ? — A. No, sir. I think the President left 
 it very much to me. 
 
 By Mr. Smith: 
 
 Q. State whether the policy has been urged on you of purchasing 
 bonds directly in gold, instead of in currency? — A. Yes, it has been 
 presented to me; I will not say that it was urged upon me. 
 
 Q. What, in your judgment, would have been the effect of such pro- 
 ceeding on the gold market, and on the bond market? — A. Before I com- 
 menced the purchase of bonds, I considered that matter, and there were 
 reasons satisfactory to me in favor of the course which I took as against 
 the proposition to purchase directly with coin. One of those reasons 
 
 TT T?Pn .<^1 ^H 
 
354 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 was that the transactions would be limited. If we offered coin for 
 bonds, we should offer coin to those only who had bonds, or who could 
 get them ; but if we offered coin for currency, we offered it on the face 
 of things to a larger number of people. If a man could not get coin out 
 of the treasury, escept by first getting bonds, it would lead to business 
 difficulties in the way of merchants and others who might want to buy 
 gold to pay duties, or for other legitimate purposes. They would be 
 obliged first to buy bonds. It would place a monopoly in the purchase'of 
 gold in the hands of men who owned or who could purchase bonds. I 
 thought that a serious objection to the proposition. In addition to that, 
 at some seasons of the year, our receipts of currency from ordinary 
 sources are less than our currency expenditures ; while at other seasons 
 of the year the currency receipts are considerably in excess of the cur- 
 rency expenditures. By selling coin for currency, I can arrange the con- 
 dition of the treasury without going into the market, and ostensibly or 
 openly selling coin for the purpose of raising currency to meet the ori- 
 nary currency expenditures of the government. It enables the Secre- 
 tary of the Treasury to have command, not only of the gold balance in 
 the treasury, but also to make his currency balance meet the existing 
 condition of things. For instance, this month I have advertised the 
 sale of four millions of coin, and propose to buy only two milUons of 
 bonds for the sinking fand. JSTear the end of this month we shall be ob- 
 liged to advance several millions of currency for pensions, due on the 
 4th of March. We shall have to transmit currency to distant parts of 
 the country. I therefore anticipate, unless the receipts Ixom internal 
 revenue are very large, that our currency expenses this month will ex- 
 ceed our cmTcncy revenue; therefore, I buy only two millions of bonds, 
 and offer to sell four millions of gold, in order to strengthen the treas- 
 ury with currency. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. State whether, during the months of August or September, the 
 consideration was pressed on you that gold should not be sold while the 
 grain crops were being sent to market, so that, by gold being retained in 
 the treasury, and by the price of gold being allowed to go up in the 
 market, the crops could be sent forward from the west over the rail- 
 roads, and exported abroad at enhanced prices ; whereas, if there were 
 -considerable sales of gold during that period, it would produce a stag- 
 nation in that class of busiaess, and thus produce distress in the coun- 
 try. State whether that policy was urged on the administration?— A, 
 Such representations were made to me. 
 
 Q. Please state what your opinion was, or is, concerning the wisdom 
 of such a policy as that, during that period; or whether it made any im- 
 pression on you as a thing that ought to be considered 1 — ^A. It never 
 made much impression upon my mind. It is undoubtedly difficult to 
 move the crops on a falling market in gold. If the market is station- 
 ary, I should suppose that it is rather immaterial, so far as the crops are 
 concerned, whether the price of gold is 20, 25, or 30. By that I mean to 
 say that I should not feel it my duty, as Secretary of the Treasury, to 
 undertake to regulate the price of gold, with reference to that matter; 
 and, I may say, to regulate the price of gold at all. I have not acted on 
 that theory. I consider it for the interest of the country that the pre- 
 mium on gold should diminish, and I hope the time will come when 
 there will be no premium on it. But I think that that result must be 
 wrought out by the development of the industry of the country; and 
 that for the Treasury to force down the price of gold at any time below 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 355 
 
 what the natural condition of the country would dictate, wOuld be bad 
 policy. There would be a reaction which would bo more pernicious 
 than to allow gold to take its natural course ; and I would like to say 
 that, in the sale of gold, which I ordered on the 24:th of September, my 
 object was to arrest a movement which I thought was calculated to di- 
 minish the revenue of the country, to paralyze business, and which 
 might possibly result in failures that would be very disastrous, and for 
 which there was no necessity in the natural condition of things, if the 
 copibination had not been formed. 
 
 By Mr. Packer: 
 Q. Tou thought the rise in gold speculative entirely, not natural 1 — 
 A. Tes; and I want to say that I would only interfere to arrest a spec- 
 ulative movement when I had good reason to believe that it portended 
 serious evils to the country. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Your theory is quite different from that of Mr. Gould, who wished 
 to raise the price of gold ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. When you threw this gold upon the market in Ifew York did you 
 buy lip a corresponding amount of bonds'? — A. Yes, sir. We adver- 
 tised to sell four millions of gold ; but there were representations made 
 which I thought had some foundation, that the sale of that amount of 
 gold would be injurious, that it would force gold to a very low price, 
 that there would be a reaction, and that it would tend to increase specu- 
 lation. Therefore, we sold but two millious of gold and purchased 
 three millions of bonds. 
 
 Q. What did you get in exchange for gold? — A. Currency. 
 
 Q. What did you buy the bonds with ? — ^A. With currency. 
 
 Q. Did you buy a $1,000 bond for $1,000 in currency?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Suppose a bondholder came out and said that he wanted to sell a 
 $1,000 bond, would he receive $1,000 in national bank notes or green- 
 backs for it? — A. I had no such offer. If anybody should offer to sell 
 to the government a $1,000 bond for $1,000 in greenbacks, I do not 
 know but I should feel justiiied in accepting it; but I had no such offer. 
 
 Q. Wheu you purchased these bonds why did you not offer currency 
 for them, dollar for dollar? — ^A. I supposed it useless to do it. I have 
 never really thought of it. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. These two letters from Jay Gould, on the 30th of August and 20th 
 of September, which you have laid before the committee, were they 
 answered? — A. The letter of the 30th of August was received at 
 Washington while I was in Massachusetts, and Judge Eichardson sent 
 it to me. I wrote a short answer to it, of which I kept no copy. I 
 think it was formal and indefinite. I do not think there was anything 
 in the answer that was directly responsive to anything that the letter 
 contained. I saw published in a newspaper in New York a letter from 
 me, which I presume was a true copy of the letter which I wrote him ; 
 but I have not even that copy. The letter of the 20th of September 1 
 made no reply to. 
 
 Q. State what action you took in reference to the Tenth National 
 Bank, and your reason for such action ?— A. On the 23d of September, 
 the day before the crisis, I had a suspicion that there must be some 
 banking institution in New York concerned in that affair. I sent for 
 Mr. Hulburd, Comptroller of the Currency, and asked him if he had 
 iiny information that would enable him to designate any bank that 
 
356 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 would be open to a suspicion of being concerned. He mentioned thi 
 Tenth Ifational Bank, and stated to me, I think, (I am not certain tlia 
 I got the information from him ; but on that day, or about that time, ] 
 obtained the information,) that Fisk & Gould owned $501,000 of tl 
 million of capital. He also mentioned two other banks which he thougl 
 might possibly be concerned. On that I determined to send a commi 
 tee to New York to investigate the Tenth National Bank, and wij 
 power to examine other banks, if it should be thought necessary, 
 selected three persons, upon consultation with Mr. Hulburdand Genen 
 Spinner, who were reputed to be good accountants in the departmeil 
 to go to New York. I sent word to them to remain after business hour 
 Mr. Hulburd had prepared a commission specially for the examinaMo 
 of the Tenth National Bank, and, as I recollect, a general commissio 
 for them to examine other banks, and they were dispatched to Ne' 
 York that night, with instructions to visit the Tenth National Bank s 
 the opening of business iu the morning. They had a letter of instru( 
 tious to examine the Tenth National Bank and other banks, if they foun 
 it necessary. My reasons for sending this committee to New York a 
 that time w«re two : One was to ascertain whether any banks ver 
 engaged in a movement such as this was understood to be. My pthe 
 reason was this : I was under the impression that if Fisk & Gould 
 and the parties associated with them, were using the Tenth Nations 
 Bank, or any other national bank, and relying upon it for support ii 
 their operations;, that if the combinations to carry up the price of gol( 
 did not break from other causes, this check upon their base of operation 
 might prevent the advance of gold on the 24th. I directed Mr. Bige 
 low, under certain circumstances, to prevent the certification of checki 
 by the bank if they were carrying it on to such an extent as to endan 
 ger the condition of the bank. One reason I had was the hope tha 
 in that way we might prevent the continuance of the combination b; 
 cutting off their supplies. 
 
 Q. Did you order the committee to stop their investigations befori 
 they had completed them, or did they complete their examination an( 
 make a full report ? — A. I am not quite sure as to the circumstance! 
 under which they were directed to suspend operations, but I understooc 
 then, as I understand now, that they continued their investigation unti 
 they ascertained the connection of this bank with these transactions 
 Whether they examined the bank as examiners do when they go intt 
 its entire operations to ascertain its standiug, I am not sure. Thej 
 were not sent there specially for that purpose. They were sent then 
 for the purpose of ascertaining what connection this bank, in any of its 
 operations, had with the combination to put up the price of gold. 
 
 Q. What impression was left on your mind as the result of th( 
 investigations concerning the complicity of the bank with the golc 
 movement ? — A. I have no definite opinion as to how far they were inter 
 ested in it as participators in the profits or losses of these proceedings 
 but I had a very distinct opinion that the proceedings, as they wen 
 reported to me, were hazardous in the extreme, and wholly unjustifiable 
 
 Q. And were made use of by the clique in gold"? — A. I understooc 
 that parties had their checks certified there on the 23d and 24:th to a veri 
 large amount. 
 
 Q. State to the committee whether you believe the certification o 
 checks can be broken up without serious injury to the transaction o 
 business'? — A. It would be an impediment to business. 
 
 Q. A sufficient impediment to more than counterbalance the advan 
 tages of refusing it?— A. No, sir; I think not. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 357 
 
 Q. Tou are still of the opinion you expressed in your report? — A. 
 Yes, sir ; I am still of the opinion that it is, practically, very dangerous 
 in times of trouble, and will aggravate the disasters of a panic. 
 
 Q. To what extent would you recommend its being prohibited? — A. 
 Not that they should not certify checks when currency or gold is depos- 
 ited with them, but that they should not certify on other checks. If 
 currency were actually deposited and the certified check were charged 
 off against the deposit, the objections would be very much diminished. 
 I do not think they would be serious, but the law passed by the last 
 Congress, as I am informed, is in a great degree inoperative, and I con- 
 sulted, I may say here, with the Attorney General as to whether we 
 had the power to enforce that law according to the idea which I had of 
 the purpose of Congress in passing it. I was advised by him, and my 
 own opinion concurred with his in the matter, that we had no power to 
 enforce it; that if one certified check was brought by a depositary and 
 deposited, and the bank took the responsibility of passing the amoimt 
 of the check to his credit as cash, he might then draw upon that bank for 
 an amount not exceeding the balance due to him, and they could cer- 
 tify that check, which check could be deposited in another bank by a 
 customer of that bank, who could draw against that balance, and so on. 
 
 Q. Please state to the committee whether in your transactions through 
 the sub-treasury in New York, in the sale of gold for currency and the 
 purchase therewith of bonds, you make any use of the Gold Exchange 
 or the Gold Exchange clearing-house in New York. — A. I can only say 
 that it has never been brought to my knowledge that we do. My atten- 
 tion has never been directed to that point. I have never made any 
 inquiry in regard to it, but I have never supposed that we had. 
 
 Q. Please state to the committee whether you know sufficiently the 
 doings of that institution to have a definite opinion as to its value as an 
 institution for trade and business. — A. No, sir. I have never had oc- 
 casion to have an opinion whether it was necessary or otherwise. 
 
 Q. Please state to the committee whether Mr. Oorbin has pressed 
 upon you or your department any particular financial policy at any 
 time, either personally or in writing. — A. I am not aware that he ever 
 has. I have no knowledge that any letter has ever been received at 
 the department from him. I have never received any myself, and I 
 have no knowledge of Mr. Corbin, except that I believe he called upon 
 me at the Astbr House when I stopped there, in September last, previ- 
 ous to the panic. 1 have no recollection of any conversation I had with 
 him. There were a good many persons who called, and I recollect 
 among the cards on my table seeing his card, and upon thinking over 
 the persons who had called I had in my mind a man whom I supposed 
 was Mr. Corbin. He probably did not stay long. I had no recollection 
 of the conversation I had with him, for at the time it did not occur to 
 me that he was Mr. Corbin. After I saw his card it did occur to me 
 that he was the President's brother-in-law. 
 
 Q. Did he call upon you the Sanday after the breakdown ? — A. No, 
 sir ; I have no knowledge of ever seeing him since. 
 
 Q. Was the leading editorial of the New York Times, Friday morn- 
 ing, September 24, telegraphed to you or to your department, as far as 
 you know? — A. I have no recollection that it was. I ought, however, 
 to rely upon the records of the department rather than my own memory 
 as to the fact. I can say that if it was telegraphed it made no impres- 
 sion upon my mind, for I do not remember it now. 
 
 Q. You received a large number of dispatches upon that day, did you 
 not ? — ^A. Yes ; we were receiving numerous dispatches. 
 
358 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Please state to the committee what was the general drift of the 
 financial discussion at the Union League dinner which was given to you 
 as you came through New York, so far as you can remember it.— A. The 
 dinner, I think, was about the middle of September, and occurred on 
 my way from my residence in Massachusetts to Washington. My recol- 
 lection is that there were two opinions upon the subject. I observed 
 from the speeches that were made that there were some persons who 
 thought gold was high enough, or, perhaps, too high, and others who 
 thought it would be advantageous if gold were higher even than it was 
 then. 
 
 Q. Did you on that occasion observe anything that appeared like a 
 concerted , effort to impress upon your mind the necessity of putting 
 gold down f — A. No, sir ; I did not. I was invited by Mr. Grinnell to 
 this dinner. I did not suppose that it had any significance except as 
 an act of friendship on his part to me. I went there without dreaming 
 that there was a plan upon the part of anybody to induce me to do or 
 not to do any particular thing. I heard the views expressed at the 
 table, and saw that there was considerable feeling uj)on the part of 
 some men in regard to financial affairs. 
 
 Q. Did you give any expression of views there that would lead the 
 persons present to understand anything specific as to what your finan- 
 cial policy would be? — A. I did not design to. My impression of what 
 I said is that it was chiefly ui^on the importance of funding a portion of 
 the natioual debt at a lower rate of interest. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. About the time of this panic in New York, when the President was 
 at Saratoga, did he give you any instructions or suggestions as to selling 
 gold ? — A. Not at Saratoga. He never gave me any instructions as to 
 selling gold at any time. 
 
 Q. I mean suggestions as to the loropriety of selling gold at this parti- 
 cular time ? — A. About the 4th day of September, I suppose, I think 
 on the evening of the 4th of September, I received a letter from the 
 President, dated at New York, as I recollect it ; 1 am not sure where it 
 was dated. 1 have not seen the letter since the night I received it. I 
 think it is now at my residence in Groton. In this letter he spoke, I 
 think, somewhat of his purpose of returning to Washington, and when 
 I should be here. In that letter he exi^ressed an opinion that it was 
 undesirable to force down the price of gold. , He spoke of the import- 
 ance to the West of being able to move their crops. His idea was that 
 if gold should fall the West would suffer and the movement of the crops 
 would be retarded. . The impression made upon my mind by the letter 
 was that he had rather a strong opinion to that effect, but at the same 
 time, in the letter he said he had no desire to control my purpose in 
 regard to the management of the Treasury ; that he was entirely satisfied 
 with it, &c., and he left the matter to my 'judgment entirely. I saw 
 from the letter that it was his opinion that the sale of gold in any con- 
 siderable quantity might carry down the price of it, and that if the 
 price were to fall the West would be embarrassed ; that they would not 
 be able to move their crops and get a return. 
 
 Q. Then just previous to this panic did you receive any suggestions 
 from him on the subject? — ^A. He also wrote me a letter which I have 
 with me. 
 
 By Mr. Cobxjen : 
 
 Q. Did you know of any order in relation to the sale of gold given 
 directly to General Butterfield from the President ? — A. Oh, no ; I do not 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 359 
 
 think tlie President would interfere about that. The letter to which I 
 kave last referred is as follows : 
 
 New Yoek City, September 12, 1869. 
 
 Deab Sib : I leave here to-morrow morning for Western Pennsylvania, and will not 
 reaoli Washington before the middle or last of next week. Had I knowu before mak- 
 ing my arrangements for starting that you wonld be in this city early this week, I 
 would have remained to meet you. I am satisfied that on your arrival you will be 
 met by the bulls and bears of Wall street, and probably by merchants too, to induce 
 you to sell gold, or pay the November interest in advance, on the one side, and to hold 
 fast on the other. The fact is, a desperate struggle is now taking place, and each party 
 want the government to help them out. I write this letter to advise you of what I 
 think you may expect, to put you on your guard. 
 
 I think, frpm the lights before me, I would move on, without change, until the pre- 
 sent struggle is over. 
 
 If you want to write me this week, my address will be Washington, Pennsylvania. 
 
 I would like to hear your experience with the factions at all events, if they give you 
 time to write. No doubt you will have a better chance to judge than I, for I have 
 avoided general discussion of the subject. 
 Yours truly, 
 
 U. S. GEANT. 
 
 Hon. George S. Boutwbll, Secretary of the Treasury. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. The letter you now exhibit to the committee is the original letter. — 
 A. Yes, sir; it is the President's writing throughout. When I left 
 Washington about the 1st of August I had an understanding with 
 Judge Eichardson that the sales of gold for the purposes of the sinking 
 fund would go on in the month of September ; that any additional sale 
 would be a subject of consideration. Indeed, all along we have proceeded 
 upon the idea that sales for the sinking fund should be made in any 
 circumstances likely to arise. On the 1st of September I wrote to 
 Judge Eichardson this letter. (Letter appended to the testimony of 
 this witness.) Upon the receipt of the President's letter on the even- 
 ing of the 4th of September I telegraphed to Judge Eichardson this 
 dispatch : " Send no order to Butterfleld as to sales of gold until you 
 hear from me." The intention of this was to limit the proposals for 
 the sale of gold for the month of September to sales of gold for the 
 sinking fund. The paper already presented will show what was done. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say previous to the reception of this letter of 
 September 4 that you had ordered the sale of gold and the purchase of 
 bonds, and that after the reception of that letter you had revoked the 
 order and confined it to the purchase of bonds for the sinking fund ? — 
 A, Tes ; I sent this dispatch which Judge Eichardson understood to 
 refer to sales of gold over and above what was necessary for the sinking 
 fund for that month, except that Mr. Spinner made during that month 
 the sale of an amount of gold, probably eight huildred thousand dol- 
 lars, which he had collected as interest on the bonds already owned by 
 the government. 
 
 Q. Then you were acting rather in accordance with the suggestion of 
 the President not to push down the price of gold.— A. The suggestion 
 of the President, that he thought a faU in the price of gold would affect 
 unfavorably the bringing of the crops from the West, led me to counter- 
 mand the order for that month, so far as it authorized anything beyond 
 what was necessary for the sinking fund. 
 
 Q. How did you consider the letter of the 12th of September, in which 
 the President said " I would move on ;" did he mean to say that he 
 would act in pursuance of his policy — that is, not to endeavor to check 
 
360 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 the price of gold?— A. I understood it to mean that in the existing con- 
 dition of things in New York, as they appeared to him on the 12th, he 
 would advise no change in our programme for the month of September. 
 
 Q. That was the only letter you received from the President after 
 that of the 4th of September «— A. I think so. 
 
 Q. What policy do you understand to be referred to in the President's 
 letter of September 12, which he thinks ought to be carried out for Sep- 
 tember?— A. As I understood it, it was that he would allow the existing 
 order to remain, which was, as I recollect it, to sell a million of gold on 
 alternate weeks for the benefit of the sinking fund during the month of 
 September. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Was the action of the government in any way changed or thwarted 
 during that month? — A. On the 24th of September we issued an order 
 for the sale of four millions of gold extra. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Did you receive any other letter from the President after this of 
 the 12th of September, or any suggestion from him in any way what- 
 ever, as to the policy of selling gold or withholding ? — A. No, sir ; I came 
 to Washington very soon after this, and the President also returned to 
 Washington. 
 
 Q. Did you receive any communication from the President while he 
 was at Washington, Pennsylvania ? — A. My impression is, not. I have 
 no recollection of receiving a letter from him. I certainly received no 
 communication from him, unless it was in writing, and I should remem- 
 ber it if I had received such a commuhication. 
 
 Q. Then I understand you, after the writing of that letter, you received 
 no communication iirom the President, written or otherwise, in reference 
 to the sale of gold. — A. Not until I met him at Washington. 
 
 Q. When did you meet him in Washington ? — ^A. I am not able to 
 say. The first time I recollect having a consultation in reference to 
 the price of gold in New York was on the 23d, the day preceding the 
 explosion or crisis. I went over to the Executive Mansion that evening 
 for the purpose of talking in reference to the condition of the country 
 growing out of this movement in regard to the price of gold. 
 
 Q. What were his views then? — A. His views were that if the price 
 of gold advanced materially the next day, as we apprehended it would, it 
 would be the duty of the government to sell gold to save the country 
 from the disasters of a panic. 
 
 Q. What was the price of gold on that day ? — ^A. My recollection is 
 that it was about 145. 
 
 Q. Was it the President's opinion that, unless it advanced, it would 
 not be politic to sell gold ? — A. I do not think any opinion was expressed 
 on that point. I know this, however, that .the President deprecated 
 exceedingly the high price of gold at that moment. He thought it 
 was an injury to the country, as I did myself. He thought it was an 
 unnatural price for gold. 
 
 Q. The inference from that letter of September 4th was that the sales 
 of gold ought not to be pressed ? — ^A. No, sir ; I do not think the Presi- 
 dent, in writing or in any other way, indicated his desire that gold 
 should advance. The suggestion was that it should not be forced down 
 during the mouth of September when the crops were to be moved ; that 
 they could not be moved as well upon a falling market as upon a sta- 
 tionary market. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 361 
 
 Q. Did he think in this interview of the 23d the price of gold was 
 too high 1 — A. Yes ; that it had been forced up by a combination ; that 
 there was no natural cause that justified the then existing price. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Was there anything in either of the letters of the President that 
 you regarded as an order ? — A. No, sir-; I was left entirely free, and by 
 the terms of the letter received September 4 he stated that he did not 
 wish to control my action. 
 
 Q. Has the President, at any time since you have been Secretary of 
 the Treasury, given a direct order to you as to the sales of gold ? — 
 A. Never. I want to say that in all the sales of gold and the purchases 
 of bonds, although I have sometimes consulted with the President — and 
 I have not always consulted him — I consider myself officially responsi- 
 ble for all that has been done by the Treasury Department in regard to 
 purchases and sales, as well previous to the letter I received on the 4th 
 of September as subsequent to it. I did not then regard any material 
 advance in the price of gold as probable, and I thought it was compar- 
 atively immaterial whether we sold four millions during that month or 
 refrained ; but I saw the President had an apprehension that the price 
 of gold might be forced down fa the injury of a large section of the 
 country, and I respected that opinion. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. Have you stated in that connection the law or laws which author- 
 izes you, as Secretary of the Treasury, to sell gold ? — ^A. I understand 
 the law as giving me that authority. 
 
 Q. What is the law which authorizes you to seU gold for any pur- 
 pose ? — ^A. I have not the statutes before me. 
 
 Q. Could not you refer to the law by date so that I can consult it ? — 
 A. I could not at this moment. I have examined the act so as to satisfy 
 myself that there is lawful authority for the sale of gold. 
 
 Q. Will you furnish to the committee a reference to that authority ? — 
 A. I will do so. (Statutes XII, chapters 33 and 142.) 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Tou stated in answer to the chairman that the President had never 
 ordered sales of gold. In this letter of the 12th of September he makes 
 a suggestion as regards your policy, and says, " I would move on ;" has 
 it been his habit to make suggestions on this subject, or has he ever 
 done so in other letters to you ? — A. I think these two letters to which 
 I have referred are the only letters in which he has made suggestions 
 to me about the financial policy of the government. I ought to say that 
 when he was here I consulted him not in reference to every step, but we 
 frequently conversed together. 
 
 Q. What did you understand bj- the term " move on ?" — A. I under- 
 stood by it that he would then advise no changes in our programme for 
 the month of September. 
 
 Q. That he would go on in the same way you did for the montii of 
 August?— A. No. 
 
 By the Chaebman : 
 Q. Has there been any correspondence between the Treasury Depart- 
 ment and General Butterfield, other than what you have already men- 
 tioned, touching gold transactions or gold certificates 1 — A. I understand 
 there was a correspondence between General Butterfield and Judge 
 Eichardson, the Assistant Secretary, in reference to the amount of gold 
 
362 GOLB PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 certificates outstanding lield by the banks of the country, but I have 
 not read that correspondence. 
 
 Q. Please famish the committee with a copy of that correspondence?— 
 A. I will do so. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of a check of ten thousand dollars of 
 General Butterfleld which is alleged to have been carried in the accounts 
 of the sub-treasury ? — No, sir ; I have not. 
 
 By Mr. Lynch : 
 
 Q. What connection has the certification of checks by the banks with 
 any operations of the government or the Treasury Department ! — A. 
 As far as the business of the sub-treasury is concerned, especially in 
 New York, where my attention has been more particularly directed, I 
 have endeavored to prevent the custom absolutely. I think formerly 
 they have been received ; that there has been a disposition on the part 
 of the sub-treasurers to use them as a matter of convenience. I think 
 the orders I have issued have broken up that practice entirely. 
 
 Q. State whether the general certification of checks by the banks of 
 the country, which appears to be disapproved by the department, has 
 any connection whatever with the operations of the Treasury, or whether 
 it only concerns the general business of the country. — A. I think it 
 should be said, as far as I know, that it concerns almost exclusively, if 
 not entirely so, the general business of the country, and not at all the 
 business of the Treasury Department. I understand that there is a 
 practice among the internal revenue officers of receiving checks in pay- 
 ment of taxes. I have no knowledge as to how far it extends. 
 
 Q. Let me ask you whether, so far as the government is concerned in 
 its operations, it has not the power to protect itself entirely in regard to 
 these certified checks without any legislation upon the subject ? — A. I con- 
 sider it unlawful for any agent of the Treasury Department to receive 
 a certified check on account of the government. 
 
 Q. Then no legislation is necessary to protect the government ?— A. 
 No, sir ; I do not understand that there is. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. If the national banks should certify checks to a very great extent 
 might they not ultimately come back on the Treasury through the guar- 
 antees we are compelled to give them, and thus indirectly affect the gov- 
 ernment finances ? — A. There is a possibility of that, but in the first 
 place their circulation is protected by a deposit of bonds, and the banks 
 that are made depositories of government funds by the deposits of col- 
 lectors of internal revenue or disbursing oflcers are required also to 
 make a deposit of government bonds, and we intend to keep the de- 
 posits in each bank at an amount less than the amount of bonds in the 
 hands of the Treasurer of the United States as security for such deposits. 
 It does, however, sometimes happen in the course of business, when the 
 receipts from internal revenue are large, that the deposits in a particular 
 bank may exceed the amount of securities in possession of the govern- 
 ment. We endeavor to avoid that, and to require that the security shall 
 always be ample. 
 
 By Mr. Lynch : 
 
 Q. Do you communicate through the telegraph any cipher?— A. I 
 think two communications were made in the cipher of the company on 
 the 25th of September in regard to the bids. The cipher would be un- 
 derstood by the operator. There was no cipher used on the 24th. 
 
 Q. It has been testified before the committee that the purpose of the 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 363 
 
 department to sell gold was known in 'Sew York some time before it 
 came from the sub-treasury. Is there a government telegraph opera- 
 tor? — ^A. No, sir; so far as I know the department has no facilities in 
 respect to the telegraph beyond those which every individual has. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you know of any officer of the government of the United States 
 who was interested, directly or indirectly, or concerned in the specula- 
 tive movement in gold in September last ? — A. I do not. The only per- 
 son on whom any suspicion rests in my mind is General Butterfleld. 
 
 Mr. Cox presented the following letter as giving the data on which he 
 had asjied certain questions of the witness : 
 
 The Ablington, 
 Washington, D. C, Monday, a. m., January 31, 1870. 
 
 My Dbak Sir : As you are the only member from the city of New York of the Com- 
 mittee on Banking and Currency, hefore which I was examined Saturday, I address a 
 note to you to make a request in your oflicial capacity, as being the only representative 
 from my home on that committee. I respectfully ask, before your committee doses its 
 labors, that the following gentlemen may be summoned before you, viz: Hon. G. S. 
 Boutwell, esq., of the Treasury, Hon. W. A. Eichardson, late Assistant Secretary of the 
 Treasury, and General Spinner, United States Treasurer. 
 
 I desire these gentlemen to be asked fuUy whether they have any knowledge, or 
 reason to believe, that I had at any time, from themselves or their subordinates, any 
 information or advice of their intended policy or purchases or sales of bonds or gold, 
 that would have given me any notice in advance of the public, to make purchases or 
 sales for my own advantage ; also, whether I ever attempted, by letter or otherwise, to 
 influence, in any manner, such purchases or sales or their policy ; also, what was the 
 character of my administration of the office of assistant treasurer for efficiency, integ- . 
 lity, or otherwise, and how I discharged my duties. 
 
 I ask Judge Eichardson to be summoned, because he was the acting Secretary for a 
 month during Mr. BoutweU's absence, in order that the whole time may be covered ; 
 and [ ask General Spinner to be recalled for the reason that he must have abundant 
 opportunities to estimate and know with regard to these questions. Evidence on this 
 point is called for by many considerations of justice and fairness to myself ; also, 
 because I have been examined touching other officials and witnesses. 
 
 If not improper, I respectfully request that this letter may be made part of the record 
 of the committee. 
 
 Very respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 DAN'L BUTTEEFIELD. 
 
 Hon. S. S. Cox, of New York. 
 
364 
 
 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Purchase of ionds hy file Secretary of 
 
 Date. 
 
 On -what account. 
 
 Act of— 
 
 Act of March 
 3, 1865. 
 
 FehniaiyaS, 
 1862. 
 
 Mar. 3,1864: 
 5-208. 
 
 June 30, 1864. 
 
 May and No- 
 vember. 
 
 1869. 
 
 May IS 
 19 
 
 
 $300, 000 
 
 46, 000 
 
 70, 000 
 
 635, 000 
 
 255, 000 
 
 
 $700, 000 
 50, 000 
 
 
 
 $70,000 
 
 ?130,000 
 
 20 
 
 do 
 
 26 
 
 do 
 
 
 265, 000 
 33, 000 
 
 100, 000 
 95,000 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 16 
 
 do 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 do 
 
 
 
 1,000 
 
 
 23 
 
 do ... . ... 
 
 90, 000 
 
 225, 000 
 
 40, 000 
 
 74, 000 
 
 307, 000 
 
 
 
 26 
 
 do 
 
 
 
 140,000 
 
 Jaly 1 
 
 do . 
 
 
 20, 000 
 
 40, 000 
 
 225,000 
 
 470, 000 
 
 
 
 53,000 
 140,000 
 
 9 
 
 do 
 
 
 14 
 
 do 
 
 
 15 
 
 
 
 
 
 21 
 
 
 95, 900 
 535, 000 
 461, 000 
 505, 500 
 144, 000 
 149, 000 
 455, 800 
 266, 750 
 272, 000 
 258, 500 
 480, 000 
 
 68, 000 
 238, 100 
 
 11, 000 
 117, 500 
 185, 950 
 240, 200 
 
 83, 000 
 
 12, OOO 
 
 5,000 
 
 190,000 
 
 35, 000 
 
 105, oor 
 
 3,000 
 
 32, 000 
 
 255, 000 
 
 802, 600 
 208, 000 
 
 65, 000 
 544, 150 
 414, 300 
 
 48, 000 
 350, 700 
 255, 000 
 164, 000 
 640, 500 
 316, 000 
 227, 700 
 159, 650 
 187, 150 
 392, 000 
 109, 000 
 636, 450 
 114, 000 
 
 58, 000 
 
 411,500 
 
 72,000 
 
 20, 000 
 
 179, 800 
 
 67, 000 
 
 235,000 
 
 129, 500 
 
 860,000 
 
 110, 000 
 
 314,000 
 
 125, 000 
 
 59,050 
 
 21, 300 
 
 227, 400 
 
 150,000 
 
 146,200 
 
 81,250 
 
 123, 500 
 
 2,000 
 
 28 
 
 do 
 
 29 
 
 
 Ang.^4 
 
 Special purcliase 
 
 do 
 
 12 
 
 Sinfeing fund 
 
 18 
 
 
 25 
 
 do 
 
 26 
 
 
 
 Sept. 1 
 
 8 
 
 Speciaf purchase 
 
 
 
 
 10 
 
 Sinlsing fund 
 
 
 15 
 
 
 
 22 
 23 
 
 ■ ----■do ^ 
 
 10, 000 
 
 25 
 
 Special pxircliase 
 
 
 89 
 
 
 400 
 
 Oct 6 
 
 do 
 
 7 
 
 
 
 7 
 
 
 
 13 
 
 
 34, 000 
 50, 000 
 
 
 85, 300 
 123, 000 
 
 4,100 
 
 20 
 
 
 
 21 
 
 
 
 
 27 
 
 
 6,000 
 132, 000 
 190, COO 
 
 46, 500 
 110, 000 
 110, OOO 
 605, OOO 
 
 33, 300 
 264, 600 
 617, 600 
 437, 700 
 
 74, 250 
 1,015,500 
 219, 750 
 149, 500 
 273, 100 
 158, 550 
 
 25,000 
 
 1,000 
 
 38, 000 
 288, 800 
 115, 000 
 23,000 
 70, 000 
 165, 000 
 18, 000 
 48, 100 
 293, 500 
 319, 100 
 543, 200 
 449, 100 
 211, 250 
 240, 600 
 220, 000 
 401, 150 
 290, 100 
 337, 000 
 
 5,000 
 50,400 
 
 2,000 
 17, 000 
 
 6,300 
 58,000 
 
 'Sov. 3 
 
 
 4 
 
 
 
 4 
 
 
 
 5 
 5 
 
 Sinking fund, (interest purchase) 
 
 Special fund, (interest purcliase) 
 
 15, 000 
 
 10 
 
 
 17 
 
 
 
 12, 000 
 275,000 
 106, 000 
 
 80,000' 
 
 28,000 
 237, 450 
 133, 000 
 186, 000 
 
 78,300 
 339, 550 
 
 68,000 
 
 17 
 
 Special purchase" . -. 
 
 
 24 
 
 do 
 
 
 Dec. 1 
 
 do 
 
 8,000 
 
 2 
 
 Sinking fund 
 
 8 
 
 
 25, 000 
 
 15 
 
 do 
 
 16 
 
 
 1,000 
 
 22 
 
 
 29 
 
 
 "* 
 
 30 
 
 Sinking fund 
 
 
 
 Total 
 
 
 
 11, 192, 550 
 
 749, 400 
 
 11, 773, 400 
 
 5, 670, 600 
 
 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 Treamry to December 31, 1869. 
 
 365 
 
 Act of March 3, 1865. 
 
 
 
 1^ 
 
 i 
 
 
 g 
 
 1 
 
 
 
 
 Total. 
 
 Amount paid. 
 
 a^ 
 
 > 
 
 h^ 
 
 ?-9 
 
 u 
 
 Consols. 
 
 18678. 
 
 18689. 
 
 
 il 
 
 1 
 
 hi 
 
 
 1-9 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 < 
 
 ^ 
 
 ■< 
 
 H 
 
 
 
 
 $1,000,000 
 1 000 000 
 
 tl, 155, 070 00 
 
 1, 168, 512 10 
 
 81, 718 00 
 
 1, 153, 581 50 
 
 1, 164, 058 90 
 
 115. 50 
 
 115. 50 
 
 1381 
 
 83.66 
 
 83. .56 
 
 
 "'$764,"6o6' 
 
 
 116. 85 
 
 116. 18 
 
 14l| 
 
 82.43 
 
 82. 99J 
 
 
 
 70, 000 
 1, 000, 000 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 116. 74 
 
 116. 20 
 
 144i 
 
 80.93 
 
 82.93 
 
 
 
 
 115.35 
 116. 40 
 
 115. 92 
 116. 04 
 
 140f 
 139S 
 
 82.03 
 83.52 
 
 82.63 
 
 ■■"$75,'6oo' 
 
 """4i5,"66o' 
 
 "$i25,'6o6' 
 
 82.85 
 
 100, 000 
 
 820, 000 
 
 80, 000 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1, 161, 967 00 
 
 116. 19 
 
 116.07 
 
 139 
 
 83.59 
 
 83.00 
 
 
 1,000,000 
 
 
 1,000,000 
 
 1,000 
 
 1, 620, 000 
 
 1,000,000 
 
 1, 152, 950 00 
 
 115.29 
 
 115. 94 
 
 137g 
 
 83.92 
 
 83.15 
 
 
 
 
 i5,"66o' 
 
 271, 000 
 
 "i,'5i5,'666' 
 
 264, 000 
 
 
 "'l,'876,'462'56" 
 1, 158, 228 25 
 
 lis '45' 
 
 115. 83 
 
 'i37 
 137 
 
 84.16 
 
 83.37" 
 
 '""ioo.'ooo" 
 
 115.82 
 
 115.83 
 
 84.23 
 
 83.47 
 
 275, 000 
 
 665, 000 
 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 3, 000, 000 
 3,000,000 
 
 1,158,098 75 
 3, 496, 474 00 
 3, 518, 044 00 
 
 115. 81 
 
 115.82 
 
 137 
 136 
 136 
 
 84.23 
 
 83.55 
 
 260, 000 
 868, 000 
 
 2, 571, 000 
 1, 425, 500 
 
 
 116 55 
 
 116. 00 
 
 85.15 
 
 83.93 
 
 ""'si'soo' 
 
 117:27 
 
 116.24 
 
 86.15 
 
 84.35 
 
 1, 713, 000 
 
 617, 000 
 
 200, 000 
 
 3, 000, 000 
 
 3, 607, 622 90 
 
 120.25 
 
 116. 88 
 
 1371 
 
 87.53 
 
 84.86 
 
 210,000 
 1, 118, 000 
 
 790, 000 
 396, 000 
 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 3,000,000 
 
 1, 201, 850 00 
 3, 600, 028 89 
 
 120 18 
 
 117. 05 
 
 130i 
 135 
 
 87.89 
 
 85.01 
 
 '"'i7i,"6o6' 
 
 120! 00 
 
 117. 44 
 
 88.89 
 
 85.53 
 
 1, 295, 000 
 
 200, 000 
 
 500, 000 
 
 3,000,000 
 
 3, 604, 859 00 
 
 120. 16 
 
 117. 76 
 
 13Bi 
 
 88.19 
 
 85.84 
 
 313,500 
 
 61, 000 
 
 44, 500 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1, 201, 570 55 
 
 120. 15 
 
 117. 85 
 
 135S 
 
 88.43 
 
 85.93 
 
 542,550 
 
 97, 000 
 
 26, 000 
 
 2, 000, 000 
 
 2, 431, 136 80 
 
 121. 55 
 
 118. 11 
 
 
 89.40 
 
 86.18 
 
 1, 032, 700 
 
 161, 500 
 
 177, 500 
 
 2,000,000 
 
 2,422,038 27 
 
 121. 10 
 
 118. 30 
 
 135^ 
 
 89.37 
 
 86.39 
 
 
 336, 000 
 303, 000 
 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 2, 000, 000 
 
 1, 198, 931 70 
 
 119 89 
 
 118. 35 
 
 134} 
 133 
 
 88.89 
 
 86.47 
 
 475, 000 
 
 """3i,'o66' 
 
 2, 378, 781 81 
 
 118. 94 
 
 118. 39 
 
 89.43 
 
 86.64 
 
 412, 300 
 
 190, 450 
 
 15, 500 
 
 2, 000, 000 
 
 2, 389, 539 01 
 
 119. 47 
 
 118. 45 
 
 133i 
 
 89.66 
 
 86.81 
 
 429, 000 
 
 4,000 
 
 21, 000 
 
 1,000,000 
 
 1,196,247 80 
 
 119. 62 
 
 118.48 
 
 133i 
 
 89.44 
 
 86.88 
 
 188, 000 
 
 580, 000 
 
 19,000 
 
 2, 000, 000 
 
 2, 401, 991 00 
 
 120. 10 
 
 118. 56 
 
 133i 
 
 90.22 
 
 87.06 
 
 771, 000 
 
 202, 000 
 
 46, 000 
 
 2, 000, 000 
 
 2, 356, 000 00 
 
 117. 80 
 
 118. 53 
 
 136 
 
 86.62 
 
 87.03 
 
 423, 500 
 
 208, 750 
 
 13, 000 
 
 1,000,000 
 
 1, 183, 972 53 
 
 118.40 
 
 118. 52 
 
 135i 
 
 87.62 
 
 87.05 
 
 1, 041, 550 
 
 491, 400 
 
 48, 000 
 
 2,000,000 
 
 2, 369, 639 55 
 
 118. 48 
 
 118.52 
 
 136 
 
 87.12 
 
 87.05 
 
 1, 274, 650 
 
 261, 800 
 
 28, 000 
 
 2, 000, 000 
 
 2, 337, 657 62 
 
 116. 88 
 
 118. 45 
 
 1375 
 
 84.93 
 
 86.96 
 
 147,000 
 
 120, 000 
 
 73, 500 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1, 165, 548 50 
 
 116. 55 
 
 118. 41 
 
 1413- 
 
 82.44 
 
 86.86 
 
 1,252,200 
 
 1, 214, 150 
 
 92, 500 
 
 3,000,000 
 
 3, 537, 158 16 
 
 117.90 
 
 118. 38 
 
 133. 42 
 
 88.37 
 
 86.95 
 
 1, 605, 500 
 
 424, 700 
 
 11, 500 
 
 3, 000, 000 
 
 3, 473, 533 12 
 
 115. 78 
 
 118.23 
 
 130. 50 
 
 88.72 
 
 87.05 
 
 681,500 
 
 979, 500 
 
 18, 500 
 
 2, 000, 000 
 
 2, 319, 139 18 
 
 115. 95 
 
 118. 15 
 
 130 
 
 89.19 
 
 87.13 
 
 231, 000 
 
 672, 000 
 
 25,000 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1, 159, 945 10 
 
 115. 99 
 
 118. 11 
 
 131i 
 
 88.37 
 
 87.15 
 
 23, 300 
 
 96, 200 
 
 34, 000 
 
 153,500 
 
 178, 1H7 69 
 
 116.08 
 
 118. 10 
 
 131i 
 
 88.44 
 
 87.16 
 
 683, 500 
 
 1, 169, 600 
 
 3,500 
 
 2,000,000 
 
 2, 318, 883 53 
 
 115. 94 
 
 118. 03 
 
 130i 
 
 89.01 
 
 87.22 
 
 196, 000 
 
 1, 611, 000 
 
 20,000 
 
 2, 000, 000 
 
 2, 314, 079 00 
 
 115. 70 
 
 117. 95 
 
 130i 
 
 88.91 
 
 87.28 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 950, 000 
 
 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 2,000,000 
 2,000,000 
 
 1, 152, 000 00 
 2, 292, 600 00 
 
 115. 20 
 
 117. 91 
 
 1301 
 130J 
 127S 
 
 88.53 
 
 87.30 
 
 "i,'6o6,'6o6" 
 
 4,150 
 
 
 114. 63 
 
 117. 80 
 
 88.09 
 
 87.32 
 
 1, 522, 150 
 
 i'soo" 
 
 2,257,255 21 
 
 112. SO 
 
 117. 65 
 
 88.60 
 
 87.36 
 
 276, 250 
 
 404, 750 
 
 12, 000 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1,129,090 29 
 
 112. 90 
 
 117. 58 
 
 127 
 
 88.89 
 
 87.39 
 
 723, 950 
 
 148, 050 
 
 41, 500 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1, 126, 843 74 
 
 112. 08 
 
 117. 50 
 
 J 27 
 
 88.72 
 
 87.41 
 
 
 
 
 433, 000 
 
 201, 300 
 
 2, 000, 000 
 
 492, 158 94 
 
 227, 580 43 
 
 2, 259, OOO 00 
 
 113. 66 
 
 117. 48 
 
 127J 
 
 89. 94 
 
 87.42 
 
 100,000 
 
 
 
 113. 06 
 
 117. 47 
 
 89 46 
 
 87.43 
 
 415, 000 
 
 ""'827,'66o' 
 
 "'135,' 665' 
 
 112. 95 
 
 117. 34 
 
 88.85 
 
 87.47 
 
 394, 100 
 
 472i 500 
 
 40, 000 
 
 2,000,000 
 
 2, 256, 513 69 
 
 112.82 
 
 117.21 
 
 127J 
 
 88.75 
 
 87.51 
 
 660, 900 
 
 309, 000 
 
 197, 000 
 
 1,000,000 
 
 1, 129, 039 02 
 
 112. 90 
 
 117. 15 
 
 1274 
 
 88.81 
 
 87.52 
 
 1, 420, 100 
 
 422, 700 
 
 114, 500 
 
 3, 000, 000 
 
 3, 382, 483 67 
 
 112. 75 
 
 116. 98 
 
 1261 
 
 89,21 
 
 87.59 
 
 833, 100 
 
 40, 000 
 
 64, 000 
 
 2, 000, 000 
 
 2, 20G, 992 21 
 
 110. 35 
 
 116. 80 
 
 121i 
 
 90.64 
 
 87.67 
 
 263, 050 
 
 151, 100 
 
 34, 500 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1, 102, 659 61 
 
 110. 26 
 
 116. 72 
 
 122i 
 
 90.19 
 
 87.70 
 
 388, 000 
 
 113, 800 
 
 9,000 
 
 2, 000, 000 
 
 2, 248, 236 56 
 
 112. 41 
 
 116. 61 
 
 123f 
 
 90.93 
 
 87.78 
 
 l,274,-200 
 
 125, 950 
 
 500 
 
 2,000,000 
 
 2,239,710 90 
 
 111. 98 
 
 116. 50 
 
 121i 
 
 91.98 
 
 87.88 
 
 436,200 
 
 7,300 
 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1, 118, 412 34 
 
 111. 84 
 
 116.45 
 
 121i 
 
 92.05 
 
 87.93 
 
 1, 170, 350 
 
 77, 600 
 
 566' 
 
 2, 000, 000 
 
 2, 215, 985 83 
 
 110. 79 
 
 116. 31 
 
 120i 
 
 91.94 
 
 88.03 
 
 1,077,550 
 
 140,250 
 
 4,000 
 
 2,000.000 
 
 2, 220, 427 12 
 
 111. 02 
 
 116. 19 
 
 120 
 
 92.52 
 
 88.13 
 
 360, 000 
 
 220, 000 
 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1,110,507 80 
 
 111.05 
 
 116.14 
 
 119J 
 
 92.93 
 
 88.18 
 
 
 
 31,388,650 
 
 25,090,700 
 
 2, 613, 500 
 
 88, 478, 800 
 
 102,754,943 98 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ir<-i 
 
 
 
 
366 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 The i'ollowing papers are referred to in the testimony of Mr. Boutwell : 
 
 Sales of coin and average price paid for tlie same to December 31, 1869. 
 
 Date. 
 
 Amount sold. 
 
 Amount realized. 
 
 Average. 
 
 Total av- 
 erage. 
 
 1869. 
 April29 
 
 ?1, 000, 000 
 1, 000, COO 
 1, 000, 000 
 1, 000, 000 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1, oco, oco 
 1, oco, ooo 
 
 1,000,000 
 1, 000, 000 
 1,000,000 
 
 1, 000, coo 
 
 1, coo, 000 
 1, coo, 000 
 
 1, 000, oco 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1, 000, oco 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 500, 000 
 
 500, ooo 
 
 2,000,000 
 
 897, 000 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1, oco, oco 
 1, oco, coo 
 
 1,000,000 
 1,000,000 
 
 1, 000, coo 
 1, 000, coo 
 1, coo, ooc 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 1, 000, 000 
 1, oco, 000 
 1,000,000 
 1, 000, coc 
 
 1, 000, coo 
 1, coo, coo 
 
 1, oco, 000 
 1, 000, 000 
 1, 000, 000 
 1, 000, 000 
 1, 000, 000 
 1, oco, 000 
 1, oco, 000 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1, coo, coo 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 
 1, 000, oco 
 
 483, coo 
 
 1, coo, coo 
 
 1, 000, 000 
 20, 000 
 
 $1, 340, 125 00 
 1,361,925 00 
 1, 384, 100 CO 
 1, 438, 225 00 
 1, 431, 110 00 
 1, 388, 630 00 
 1, 385, 470 00 
 1, 382, 647 50 
 1, 386, 512 50 
 1, 389, 491 25 
 1,391,835 25 
 1, 378, 775 62 
 1, 367, 600 00 
 1, 366, 795 00 
 1, 375, 003 75 
 1, 355, 350 CO 
 1, 352, 359 37 
 1, 3(il, 300 00 
 1, 330, 730 00 
 
 1, 336, COO 60 
 681,480 CO 
 682, 130 00 
 
 2, 668, 350 00 
 1, 17C, 490 50 
 1, 304, 630 15 
 1, 399, 408 85 
 1, 399, 414 37 
 1, 313, 030 75 
 1, 303, 632 CO 
 1, 300, 279 50 
 1, 300, 198 00 
 1,300,311 CO 
 1, 311, 300 00 
 1, 300, 543 35 
 1, 288, 580 25 
 1, 285, ICl 00 
 1, 975, 233 75 
 1, 267, 600 00 
 1, 270, 992 25 
 1, 265, 644 00 
 1, 265, 782 5C 
 1, 270, 739 50 
 1, 265, 359 20 
 1, 365, 468 75 
 1, 253, 150 75 
 1,245,795 35 
 1, 221, 030 00 
 1, 227, 849 00 
 1,335,853 80 
 1, 238, 311 50 
 1, 221, 907 50 
 
 584, 944 30 
 
 1, 204, 849 31 
 
 1, 200, 557 00 
 
 24, 003 CO 
 
 $34.01 
 36.19 
 38.41 
 43.82 
 42.11 
 38.86 
 38.55 
 3a 26 
 38.65 
 38.95 
 39.18 
 37.88 
 36.76 
 36.68 
 37.50 
 35.53 
 35.34 
 36.13 
 33.07 
 33.66 
 36.39 
 36. 42 
 .33. 42 
 30.49 
 30.46 
 29.94 
 39.94 
 31.20 
 30.26 
 30.03 
 30. 02 
 30.02 
 31.13 
 30.05 
 28.86 
 28.51 
 27.53 
 26.76 
 27.10 
 
 26. 56 
 26.58 
 
 27. 07 
 26.53 
 26.55 
 25.21 
 24.58 
 23.10 
 22.78 
 23.58 
 32.83 
 32.19 
 21.36 
 20.43 
 20.05 
 20.01 
 
 134.01 
 
 May 6 
 
 35.10 
 
 
 36.20 
 
 May 30 
 
 38.11 
 
 May 34 
 
 38.91 
 
 
 38.90 
 
 May 31 
 
 38.85 
 
 
 38.78 
 
 
 38.76 
 
 
 38.78 
 
 
 38.82 
 
 
 38. 74 
 
 
 38.58 
 
 
 38.45 
 
 Jime 28 
 
 38.39 
 
 Julys 
 
 38.21 
 
 July 22 
 
 37.45 
 
 
 37.93 
 
 
 37.67 
 
 
 37.97 
 
 
 37.44 
 
 
 37.42 
 
 
 37.07 
 
 
 36.82 
 
 September 30 
 
 36. 5T 
 
 
 36.31 
 
 
 36.08 
 
 
 35.90 
 
 October 13 
 
 35.71 
 
 
 35.60 
 
 
 35.31 
 
 
 35.17 
 
 October22 
 
 35.07 
 
 
 34.90 
 
 
 34.73 
 
 
 34.56 
 
 
 34.36 
 
 
 34.08 
 
 
 33.98 
 
 
 33.86 
 
 
 33.63 
 
 
 33.46 
 
 
 33.30 
 
 
 33.15 
 
 
 32.97 
 
 
 32. V9 
 
 
 32.56 
 
 
 32 36 
 
 
 32.17 
 
 
 31.90 
 
 
 31.80 
 
 December 17 
 
 31.70 
 
 
 31.48 
 
 December 28 
 
 3127 
 
 
 31.37 
 
 
 
 
 53, 399, oco 
 
 70, 095, 336 83 
 
 
 
 _ 
 
 COEKESPONDENCE BETWEEN THE TREASURY DEPARTMENT AND THE 
 ASSISTANT TREASURER AT NEW YORK IN REGARD TO GOLD AND GOLD 
 CERTIFICATES. 
 
 1. From acting Assistant Treasurer to Comptroller of Ciirrency, August 30, 1869, ask- 
 
 ing copy of circular to national banks, of August 25, 1869. 
 
 2. From same to same, September 10, 1869, inclosing bank statements of coin assets, &c. 
 
 3. From Comptroller of Currency to Assistant Treasurer, New York, September 20, 
 
 1869, inclosing coin accounts of national banks. 
 
 4. From same to same, September 21, 1869, exhibiting items counted as specie in 
 
 national banks. 
 
 5. From Assistant Treasurer Butterfielcl to Assistant Secretary Richardson, August 18, 
 
 1869, in regard to prevention of fraud in gold certificates. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 367 
 
 6. From Assistant Secretary Eiohardson responsive to Assistant Treasurer Butterfiold, 
 
 August 19, 1869. 
 
 7. From Assistant Treasurer Butterfield to Assistant Secretary Eiohardson, August 20, 
 
 1869, statement of gold certificates agrees with Treasury records except as to 
 $15,000. 
 
 8. lYom Assistant Secretary Eichardson to Assistant Treasurer Butterfield, August 21, 
 
 1869, number of coin certificates held by national banks. 
 
 9. From Assistant Treasurer Butterfield to Assistant Secretary Eichardson, responsive, 
 
 August 23, 1869. 
 
 10. From Jay Gould to Secretary Treasury, August 30, 1869, in regard to the Secre- 
 
 tary's financial policy. 
 
 11. From same to same, September 20, 1869, suggesting forty-five per centum as price 
 
 of gold. 
 
 12. From United States Treasurer Spinner to Secretary Treasury, September 28, 1869, 
 
 with statement of amount of gold certificates. 
 
 13. Keport of committee, gold coin and bullion in sub-treasury Now York, December, 
 
 3, 1869. 
 
 No. 1. 
 
 United States Tbeasuet, 
 
 Nmo TorTc, August 30, 1869. 
 Sir : WUl you please cause to Tie forwarded to nie ten of your circular letters to 
 national banks bearing date August 25, 1869, and accompanying forms of statement to 
 be rendered September 8, 1869, of coin, &c., on hand, and oblige, very respectfully, 
 
 . W. G. WHITE, 
 Acting Assistant Treasurer. 
 Hon. H. E. HuLBURD, 
 
 Comptroller of Currenoy, Washington, D. C. 
 
 No. 2. 
 
 United States TeeasCey, 
 
 New Torlc, September 10, 1869. 
 Sir : I beg to inclose herewith the statements of some of the city banks, not national, 
 as to the items making up their coin assets, on the morning of September 8, 1869. 
 
 The Gold Exchange and others, whose statements are inclosed, express a desire to be 
 furnished with the statement of the general result. I should wish to have given them 
 all the information you furnish. 
 Very respectfully, 
 
 W. G. WHITE, 
 AoUng Assistant Treasurer. 
 Hon. H. E. HuxBURD, 
 
 Comptroller of the Currency, Washington, D. C. 
 
 Note. — ^The statement hereto appended, marked A, is a copy of the consolidation of 
 the original detailed statements. 
 
 A. 
 
 Statement exhihiting the items embraced in the coin or specie account of the thirteen State banks 
 ofNeio Tork City, at the .commencement of business on tlie morning of Wednesday, Seatemr 
 6er8, 1869. 
 
 Gold coin §263,645 00 
 
 Gold bars 
 
 $263,645 00 
 
 Silver coin 124,054 59 
 
 Silverhars ..„. 
 
 134, 054 59 
 
368 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 GOLD CERTIFICATES. 
 
 Tens *^%'oA 
 
 Twenties J„'i„„ 
 
 Hundreds 122,200 
 
 Five hundreds 352x 
 
 Thousands ^-^"'nnH 
 
 Five thousands 360,000 
 
 Tenthousands 60,000 
 
 1865,380 00 
 
 Checks payahle in gold 45,491 31 
 
 Coupons payahle in gold - - 55 50 
 
 Other items counted as specie : 
 Description 2,855 21 
 
 Total 1,301,48161 
 
 , Cashier. 
 
 To CoMPTROLLBE OF CURRENCY, Washington, D. C. 
 
 No. 3. 
 
 Treasury Department, 
 Office of Comptroller op Currency, 
 
 Washington, /September 20, 1869. 
 
 Sm : I inclose herewith statement exbihiting the items Of the coin accounts of tie 
 national hanks of the United States on the morning of the 8th instant, and wiU to- 
 morrow send you a detailed statement showing the different items of specie held by 
 the hanks of the several States and Territories. 
 Very respectfully, 
 
 H. E. HULBUED, Comptroller. 
 General Dan'l Butterfield, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer United States, Neio YorTc City. 
 
 Note. — Statement appended marked B, with supplement marked C. 
 
 B. 
 
 Statement exhibiting tlie items emiraced in the coin w specie account of the national tanks of 
 the tfnited States, at the commencement of buMneas on the morning of Wednesday, September 
 8, 1989. 
 
 Gold coin ^5,489,572 57 
 
 Gold bars 43,919 36 
 
 ^,533,49193 
 
 Silver coin 545,815 97 
 
 Silver hars 20,340 34 
 
 566,156 31 
 
 GOLD CERTIFICATES. 
 
 Tens 
 
 Twenties |34,700 
 
 Hundreds 366,300 
 
 Five hundreds 283,500 
 
 Thousands 1,034,000 
 
 Five thousands 8,390,000 
 
 Tenthousands 380,000 
 
 10,488,500 
 
 Checks payable in gold 339,354 33 
 
 Coupons payahle in gold...-. 183,576 25 
 
 Other items counted as specie : 
 Description 37,062 64 
 
 Total 17,148,141 46 
 
 , Cashier. 
 
 To Comptroller of Cokrency, Washington, D. C. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 369 
 
 Trbastjey Depaetmbnt, 
 Office of Comptroller of the Cubeency, 
 
 Washington, August 25, 1869. 
 Sir : WiU you do me the favor to fill up the form fumished herewith, so as to ex- 
 hibit a detailed statement of the items of which your corn or specie account is com- 
 posed? The information is desired for general or statistical purposes, and not with 
 any reference to the condition of the banks in this respect. 
 
 In order that the returns may be simultaneous, yon are requested to mate the state- 
 ment at the commencement of business on the morning of Wednesday, September 8, 
 1869. Please mail the return promptly on that day. 
 Very respectfully, yours, 
 
 H. E. HULBUED, 
 Comptroller of the Currency. 
 To , Esq., Cashier National Ba/nk. 
 
 C. (Supplementary to Exhibit B.) 
 
 Statement exUliting the items enibracei in the coin or specie account of the national ianJcs of 
 the city of New York, at the commencement ofiusiness on the morning of Wednesday, Sep- 
 tembers, 1869. 
 
 Gold coin $2,395,254 50 
 
 Gold bars 39,845 78 
 
 Silvercoin 217,372 54 
 
 Silverbars 16,822 84 
 
 gold certificaxes. 
 
 12,435,100 28 
 234, 195 38 
 
 Tens 
 
 Twenties |33,860 
 
 Hundreds 354,200 
 
 Five hundreds 280,000 
 
 Thousands 998,000 
 
 Five thousands 8,250,000 
 
 Teh thousands 380,000 
 
 10,296,060 00 
 
 Checks payable in gold 205,187 24 
 
 Coupons payable in gold 48,638 50 
 
 Other items counted as specie : 
 Description 7,413 94 
 
 Total 13,226,595 34 
 
 , Cashier. 
 
 To COMPTROLLEE OF CURRENCY, Washington, D. C. 
 
 Treasury Department, 
 Office of Comptroller of the Currency, 
 
 Washington, August 25, 1869. 
 Sir : Will you do me the favpr to fiU up the form furnished herewith, so as to exhibit 
 a detailed statement of the items of which your coin or specie- account is composed ? 
 The information is desired, for general or statistical purposes, and not with aoiy refer- 
 ence to the condition of the banks in this respect. 
 
 In order that the returns may he simultaneous, yon are requested to make the state 
 ment at the commencement of business on the morning of Wednesday, September 8, 
 1869. Please mail the return promptly on that day. 
 Very resijeotfully, yours, 
 
 To , Esq., Cashier National Bank. 
 
 H. Eep. 31 ^24 
 
 H. E. HULBUED, 
 
 Comptroller of the Currency. 
 
370 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 No. 4. 
 
 Tkbasuky Dbpartmbnt, 
 Office of Comptkoller of the Cukeency, 
 
 September -Zl, 1869. 
 
 SiE : I inclose you herewith a statement exhibiting the items counted as specie held 
 hy the national hanlss of the several States and Territories, on the mornmg of the 8th 
 instant, which wiU, I hope, he satisfactory. 
 
 Very respectfully, ^ ^ HULBUED, Cor,.ptroller. 
 
 General Daniel Btjttkkfibld, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer United States, New York City. 
 
 Note. — ^The statement accompanying the above was a large, bulky one, exhibiting 
 the State and Territorial distribution of the items forming the aggregates of the con- 
 solidated statement A for the whole United States. 
 
 No. 5. 
 
 United States Tebasuey, 
 
 New Tork, August 18, 1869. 
 
 Deae Sie : I have labored under much apprehension with regard to gold certifi- 
 cates, ever since I have taken charge of this treasury. I am trying to bring the mat- 
 ter to such a system, as far as we are concerned here, that any attempt at any iraud in 
 connection with gold certificates may be immediately detected. I see no reason to 
 prevent fraudulent gold certificates being kept concealed and unknown to govemr- 
 ment in any of our banks, should the bank officers have failed to detect them and 
 received them as good. Again, if at any time there should have been an over-issue it 
 could not ' be detected short of calling in and canceling all outstanding certificates. 
 While such things may not have occurred, and I have no positive idea that they have; 
 still it is a portion of my duty to exercise every possible precaution in the x^remises. ., 
 
 My attention is more particularly called to the matter, from the fact that the origi- 
 nal design of canceling all gold certificates upon their return to the treasury and not 
 reissuing them, has been departed' from — why, I do not know — and again, that my 
 record here shows outstanding only $33,164,940 of gold certificates. 
 
 We have in our own cash for daily use, and in readiness for interest payments, the 
 
 sum of ' 110,12-2,980 
 
 The banks report last week (gold) 24,154,499 
 
 There is usually with brokers and dealers, merchants, &c., say 1, 000, 000 
 
 35,277,479 
 
 If the statement is true that the banks hold their specie all in certificates, then there 
 is good reason for apprehension. I would respectfully suggest that the national baiik 
 examiners in New York, Boston, PhUadelphia, and Baltimore, on a given day, say next 
 Saturday, as that is bank statement day, be directed to visit aU the banks on that day 
 and run over their specie items, taldng a brief record of the amount held in gold and 
 the amount held in certificates, the latter record to be taken so as to show the mim- 
 ber of notes and denominations. This record taken on the same day, simultaneously 
 at the points named, would develop any irregularity if such a thing exists. It might 
 be done without an examination, possibly by sending a circular to the banks, directing 
 them to make a specific return as above, at a given time. 
 
 It would be better here in New York to have an examiner familiar with gold cer- 
 'tificates. 
 
 I trust that I may not be considered as going beyond the line of my duty by the 
 suggestion. 
 
 I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 DANIEL BUTTERFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer. 
 Hon. William: A. Eichaedson, ' 
 
 Acting Secretary of fhe Treasury, WaaMngton, D. C. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 371 
 
 No. 6. 
 
 Teeasxjky Dbpaetmbstt, August 19, 1869. 
 SlE : The subject of your letter of the IBtli instant, in relation to the possibility of 
 frauds in the issue of gold certificates, had been somewhat considered before the receipt 
 of your letter. It was for the purpose of guarding against such cases that the numbers 
 of gold certificates redeemed elsewhere were forwarded to you, that the fact of their 
 cancellation might be noted on your books. As all tiaese certificates are numbered 
 and recorded both in your office and hero, is not that a sufficient guarantee against 
 duplicates ever being redeemed ? If you think it is not, we wiU take such other meas- 
 ures as on consideration you may deem best. 
 
 I think there is very little probability that all that which the banks represent as 
 coin in their reports, is composed of gold certificates. 
 
 Most banks undoubtedly have some gold, and they often reckon matured coupons as 
 specie, I think. 
 
 Yours, respectfully, 
 
 WM. A. RICHAEDSON, 
 
 Acting Secretary. 
 
 No. 7. 
 
 United States Tkbasuey, 
 
 New Tork, August 20, 1869. 
 Sir: In reply to your letter of the 19th instant in regard to gold certificates, we have 
 checked up by records here with the statements ftirnisned from your office of our issue, 
 and have thus far been able to make everything apparently straight, with the excep- 
 tion of $15,000. The cause of our being unable to make this compare wiE be furnished 
 in detail by my cashier, who has been directed to prepare a letter giving detailed in- 
 formation upon the subject. You ask me whether the numbering and recording of the 
 certificates, both in your oiHce and here, is not a sufficient guarantee against duijlioates 
 over being redeemed ? "While this, possibly, might be a sufficient guarantee, a still better 
 precaution would be famished by as defibnite a knowledge as possible of the fact as to 
 the existence or non-existence of a greater amount of gold certificates than our records 
 would show to be properly issued. 
 
 I am still of the opinion that the best course to pursue with regard to the subject is 
 to have the various treasuries and the national banks furnish, on a given day, to be fixed 
 sufficiently in advance to make the statement simultaneous, a detailed account of 
 their gold balance, giving the amount in gold coin, and checks for gold on other banks, 
 and their gold certificates, the denominations and numbers. 
 
 These statements aggregated would undoubtedly show any unauthorized or counter- 
 feit issue of gold certificates in existence. A careful comparison of the record of de- 
 nominations and numbers of gold certificates outstanding with this return would make 
 me feel more comfortable upon the subject. 
 
 I am, sir, your obedient servant, , ' 
 
 DANIEL BUTTEEFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer, 
 Hon. Wm. a. Eichaedson, 
 
 Acting Secretary of the Treasury, Washington, D. G. 
 
 No. 8. 
 
 Tkbasuey Depaetmbkt, August 21, 1869. 
 Sie: I have consulted the Comptroller of the Currency in relation to obtaining from 
 the national banks the number of coin certificates held by them, and he is quite willing 
 to undertake to obtain the information you desire. In your letter of yesterday on the 
 subject you seem to incline to think it best to obtain a "detailed account of their gold 
 balances, giving the amount in gold coin and checks for gold on other banks, their gold 
 certificates, denomination and number." This would complicate the inquiry somewhat. 
 Would it not be sufScient for all the purposes you mention to ask simply for informa- 
 tion in regard to gold cerldficates ? 
 Yours, respectfully, 
 
 W. A. EICHAEDSON, 
 
 AclAng Secretary. 
 Hon. Daniel Butteepibld, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer U. S., Nm Torlc. 
 
372 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 No 9. 
 
 tTjsfiTED States Treasuey, 
 
 New TorJc, August 23, 1869. 
 
 Mt Dear Sir : Yours of 21st in relation to gold certificates, &c., received. I think 
 that it would be better to ask for the statement entire. If the gold certificates are all 
 correct and right, we would not ]ik6 it to appear that we had any idea or suspicion tS 
 the contrary. If it is the custom of the banks to count checks upon each other as gold, 
 it is desirable to know that fact, and to what extent it exists, it being a question haTing 
 much to do with the gold resources of the country, and one that I suppose the Secre- 
 tary would be glad to be well advised about. 
 
 The President asked me, when here, what amount of gold I supposed there was in 
 the country. I could give him no idea, for the reason that the banks probably count 
 their gold in this way. Should you ask for a statement of the gold certificates alone, 
 it might give rise to rumors or alarms that would be used for speculative purposes,' oi 
 to malign the Secretary or the oifioers of the treasury at Washington. I desireno other 
 information than the specific information with regard to "gold certificates," but it 
 seems to me much better to make the circular and inquiry broad enough to prevent its 
 call from being used for malicious purposes. Say that they should be requested to re- 
 port as follows, viz : 
 
 Gold, viz : 
 
 Gold coin or bars I 
 
 Gold checks on other banks 
 
 Gold certificates 
 
 Total 
 
 Of the gold certificates there are in — 
 
 lO's. 
 
 20's 
 
 50's 
 
 lOO's , 
 
 lOOO's 
 
 5000's 
 
 Total 
 
 This report would, it seems to me, be more likely to avoid confusion and error tliau 
 to cause it. My purposes and wishes will be fully served by a complete return of the 
 gold certificates. The quicker I get it the better I shall be pleased and made to feel 
 comfortable, if it is found correct. 
 
 I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 DANIEL BUTTEEFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer. 
 Hon. William A. Eichaedson, 
 
 Acting Secretary of the Treasury, Washington, D. C. 
 
 General Sphwtek : 
 
 Can you ascertain from all the assistant treasurers the amount, &c., of gold, eerUJmta 
 held by them at the opening of business on the morning of Wednesday, September 8? 
 Mr. Hulburd will to-day issue a circular to the banks for the same information from 
 them. 
 
 WM. A. EICHAEDSON, Acting SecreUry. 
 
 Treasury of the United States, August 27, 1869. 
 EespectfuUy returned to the Secretary with the information that circular has been 
 addressed to the assistant treasurers and United States depositaries to procure the iu- 
 formation desired. 
 
 F. E. SPINNEE, Treasurer United States. 
 
 No. 10. 
 
 urn 
 
 Office of the Erie Eailway Company, 
 
 President's Office, Nmo Yorh, August 30, 1869. 
 My Dear Sir: If the New York Times correctly reflects your financial policy during 
 the nest three or four months, viz : to unloose the currency balance at the treasury, 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATIOIT. ' 373 
 
 or keep it at the lowest possible figure, and also to refrain during the same period from 
 selliag or putting gold on the market, thus preventing a depression of the pre- 
 mium at a season of the year when the bulk of our agricultural products have to be 
 marketed, then I think the country peculiarly fortunate in having a financial head 
 who can take a broad view of the situation and who realizes the importance of settling 
 the large balance of trade against us by the extent of our agricultural and miner^ 
 products instead of bonds and gold. You no doubt fully appreciate the fact that in the 
 export of breadstuffs to European markets we have on our side high-priced labor and 
 long rail transportation to compete with the cheap labor and water transportation of 
 the great grain-producing countries of the Black and Mediterranean seas, and it is 
 only by making gold high and scarce that the difference is equalized, and we are 
 enabled to compete in the London and Liverpool markets. It is not merely the agricul- 
 tural and producing classes all over the country, north, west and south, that are 
 enriched by your poUoy of furnishing a foreign market for the surplus products of the 
 country, at good and remunerative prices, but as well the manufacturing and commer- 
 cial interest. When the former classes are prosperous they buy and consume liberally ; 
 thus bringing prosperity and wealth to the latter interests. This policy wiU also greatly 
 benefit the vast railway interests — which can only prosper when the general business 
 of the country is prosperous. 
 
 I sincerely believe that when the fruits of your policy come to be practically realized, 
 all classes, the poor as well as the rich, will accord your services a generous apprecia- 
 tion. 
 
 With many apologies for thus troubling vou, I remain, yours, respectfully, 
 
 JAY GOULD. 
 Hon. Geo. S. Boutwell, 
 
 Secretary of the Treasury, Washmgton, D. C. 
 
 No. 11. 
 
 Eeds Railway Company, 
 President's Office, New Tork, Septeniber 20, 1869. 
 My Dear Sir ; On the subject of the price of gold and its effect upon the producing 
 interests of the West, permit me to say that during the months of September of the 
 past two years the price has averaged about 45. Gold must range this year at about 
 that premium to enable the export of the surplus crops of wheat and corn. We have 
 to compete with the grain-producing countries bordering on the Black and Mediterra^ 
 nean seas, and it requires a premium of over 40 per cent, on gold to equalize our high- 
 priced labor and long rail transportation to the seaboard with their cheap labor and water 
 transportation. As a practical proof of this proposition, there are now afloat for Lon- 
 don and Liverpool, from Greek ports alone, three hundred cargoes of dom, averaging 
 300 tons per cargo ; while here, the great trunk lines of rail between New York, 
 the seaboard, and the West, are suffering for remunerative freights. My theory is to 
 let gold go to a price that we can export our surplus products to pay our foreign debts, 
 and the moment we turn the balance of trade in our favor gold will decline from 
 natural causes. In my judgment, the government cannot afford to sell gold during the 
 next three months, while the crops are being marketed, and if such a policy were 
 announced it would immediately cause a high export of breadstuffe and an active fall 
 trade. 
 
 Yours, respectfully, 
 
 JAY GOLTLD. 
 Hon. Geo. S. Botjtweix, 
 
 Secretary Treasury, Washington, D. C. 
 
 P. S. — ^In addition to the above, if gold were put upon the market, government bonds 
 would decline to at least 15, leaving the purchases made by the government in the past 
 few months open to criticism as showing a loss. 
 
 J. G. 
 
 No. 12. 
 
 Treasury of the Uotte0 States, 
 
 Washington, September 28, 1869. 
 Sir : I send herewith a statement of the amount of gold certificates on hand at the 
 opening of business on the morning of Wednesday, September 8, 1869, in the ofSces of 
 the Treasurer, assistant treasurers, and depositaries. 
 
374 
 
 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 The last of the reports upon wMcli the statement is 1)88601 was received from tlie 
 depositary at Mohile yesterday ; otlierwise the statement would have been famished 
 sooner. 
 
 Very respectfully, 
 
 F. E. SPINNER, 
 
 Treasurer United, States. 
 Hon. G. S. BOUTWELL, Searetary of tJie Treasury. ' 
 
 Note. — ^This statement, marked D, was, so far as known, never furnished to Geneial 
 Butterfield, nor did he call attention to the omission, so far as the department is aware. 
 
 D. 
 
 Statement of the number, denomination, and amount of gold certificates on hand at the opemng 
 of Inisiness On the morning of Wednesday, the 8th of Septenibo; 1869, in the offices of flie 
 Treasurer, assistant treasurers, anA depositaries of the United States. 
 
 
 Denominations. 
 
 Amount 
 
 
 ?20. 
 
 Sioo: 
 
 S500. 
 
 §1, 000. 
 
 §5000. 
 
 SIO, 000. 
 
 Treasurer TTnitcd States, "WasMngton, D. C . . 
 
 1 
 
 9 
 
 580 
 4 
 
 3 
 
 40 
 
 1,964 
 
 198 
 
 
 
 
 
 $320 
 
 346,180 
 1,018,500 
 
 196, 880,- 
 
 Assistant treasurers United States. 
 F. Haven, jr., Boston, Mass 
 
 8 
 207 
 160 
 
 3 
 
 347 
 92 
 
 67 
 
 72 
 1 
 
 
 Daniel Butterfield, New Tork, K T 
 
 r|-p.nro|p. M. "R^y.ifl+rPirj PhilnYlp.lphifi.j Pjlr 
 
 A. G. Edwarda, St. Lonis, Mo 
 
 J. D. Geddings, Charleston, S. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 1 
 
 2 
 
 
 
 
 
 C. K. Felton, San Francisco, Cal 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Designated depositaries. 
 Samuel J. Holley, Buffalo, 'N.Y 
 
 69 
 67 
 5 
 
 28 
 
 133 
 
 6 
 
 
 
 
 
 4 W4 
 
 John L. Thomas, jr. , Baltimore, Md 
 
 40 
 1 
 
 49 
 12 
 
 40 
 
 3 
 
 312' 64i)i| 
 
 
 13 m 
 
 H. H. Stephenson, Cincinnati, Ohio 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 .■vS 
 
 "William Miller, Mohile, Ala.' , 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ■M 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ,'A 
 
 Henry Warren, Oregon City, Oregon 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Thomas Steel, Pittsburg, Pa. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -■/s 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 735 
 
 2,373 
 
 418 
 
 503 
 
 180 
 
 3 
 
 ' l,894,dOoi 
 
 Ji^mes P. Luse, depositary at Louisville, Ky., reports three of §1,000 each sent to 
 assistant treasurer, New York, on September 4, 1869. 
 
 No. 13. 
 
 Beport of ths committee on the examination of the gold coin and bullion in the si 
 and assay office. New Torh, December 2, 1869. 
 
 United States Sub-Tkbasury, 
 
 New Tork, December 2, 1869. 
 
 Sm : In compliance with instructions conveyed in your letter of the 20th ultimo, to 
 the Hon. Chas. J. Folger, assistant treasurer United States, appointing a committee to 
 count such money or bullion as might be desired by him, we have the honor to report 
 that owing to the absence of General Butterfield from the city we were unable to com- 
 mence the count until the afternoon of Tuesday, the 23d ultimo. 
 
 At that time Frederick D. Tappen, president of the Gallatin National Bank of this 
 city, having been chosen by both General Butterfield and Judge Folger as a member 
 of the committee to represent their interest, the work was begun by taking up the 
 bullion in the assay office, and the silver coin, and odd lots of gold coin in this office, 
 the only key and combination of the lock on the door of the assay office vault, and all 
 the keys and combinations to one door to each of the two vaults in this office, being 
 taken possession of by the committee, and kept throughout the entire examination, so 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 375 
 
 that no person could obtain access to any one of the vaults, except in the presence of 
 one, a memher of the committee. All the gold and silver coin, in its transmission from 
 the vaults to the weighing room, and during the process of -weighing, and on its return 
 to the vaults, was at all times kept in immediate view by at least one of the committee. 
 The gold coin was found in compartments in the vaults, containing each $500,000 in 
 bags of $5,000 each. The process of ascertaining the amount of each bag was by 
 counting one or more hags from each compartment, and proving the balance of the 
 bags in said compartment by actual and careful weight, as against the counted bags. 
 When any variation occurred in the weight the contents of such bag was carefuBy 
 counted, and when completed all were returned to the vault, placed in the compart- 
 ment in the presence of a custom-house officer, one from the navaJ office, and one or 
 more members of the committee, who made a record of the number of bags returned 
 to the compartment, which, when filled with $500,000, was securely locked and placed 
 under the seal of the United States Treasury. The sUver coin was treated in like 
 manner, looked up in various compartments, and sealed in the presence of the com- 
 mittee. 
 
 ASSAY OFFICE. 
 
 The committee found in the vault of the assay office an amount of 
 
 gold bars, valued at $4,225,201 90 
 
 Silver bars, valued at |13,872 80 
 
 Gold bars, valued at 248,351 12 
 
 Total 262,223 92 
 
 On which last amount there has been advanced by the assistant treas- 
 urer, ia gold coin 149,000 00 
 
 Total 4,374,201 90 
 
 SUB-TBEAStTRT. 
 
 The committee found in the vaults of this office : 
 
 old coin $74,960 000 
 
 Silver coin 43,100 
 
 Total 75,003,100 
 
 The following is a statement of the denominations of the gold coin, as near as it was 
 practicable to asoertaia them : 
 
 Double eagles , $38,570,000 
 
 Eagles 5,500,000 
 
 Half-eagles 14,225,000 
 
 ■ Quarter-eagles 9,930,000 
 
 Dollars 6,735,000 
 
 74, 960, 000 
 
 Your committee found in the vault of the sub-treasury packages of legal-tender notes, 
 which, upon being counted, were found to amount to $10,000,000. It was represented 
 to your committee that these notes were a special deposit with the sub-treasurer, to be 
 used only by direction of the Secretary of the Treasury. These notes were placed 
 under the seal of the Treasury Department, Washington. 
 
 The following are the denominations of said notes : 
 
 1000s 7,000,000 
 
 5003 3,000,000 
 
 For the balance of the assets of this office, your committee respectfully refer to the 
 report of Messrs. Calhoun and McCartee, appointed by Judge Folger and General But- 
 terfield to count the same. 
 
 Your committee beg to submit the foregoing report, and, in conclusion, take great 
 pleasure in stating that, notwithstanding the magnitude of the busiaess in the coin 
 department of this office, it is conducted with the greatest exactness, dispatch,, and 
 fidelity, and that the members of your committee have been treated by all the officers 
 
376 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 and employes of this office -with uniform courtesy and attention, and every fecility 
 afforded them in the proper discharge of the duties which devolved upon them m this 
 examination. • ^ ^ ^^^^^ 
 
 LEWIS D. MOOEE. 
 JNO. P. BIGELOW. 
 S. GUTHKIE. 
 Hon. George S. Boutwell, 
 
 Seoretary of the Treasury. 
 
 UiOTED States Treasury, 
 
 New York, July 31, 1869. 
 Sir : You mily give notice that you wlU receive proposals until 12 o'clock noon, on 
 each Wednesday of the month of August, for the sale of two millions of 5-20 honds to 
 r he government. The terms and conditions on which honds were purchased during 
 the month of July will he applicable to the purchase herein authorized. 
 
 This order wUl not interfere with or qualify the standing order for the sale of gold 
 and the purchase of one million of bonds on alternate weeks, on account of the sink- 
 ing fund. 
 
 Very respectfully, 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Seoretary. 
 General Danibi, Buttbrfield, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer United States, New York. 
 
 Fersonal. 
 
 Uotted States Treasury, 
 
 New York, August 28, 1869. 
 Sir : You will please continue the purchase of bonds and the sale of gold during the 
 month of September, to the same extent and in the same manner as in August. 
 Yours, respectfully, 
 
 WM. A. RICHARDSON, 
 
 Acting Secretary 
 Gen. Dakibl Butteefibld, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer United States, Neto York. 
 
 Groton, September 1, 1869. 
 
 My Dbae Sir : I think it will be necessary to sell four or six millions of gold during 
 
 this month — the latter sum probably — andl think you had better give notice, say Sunday. 
 
 If four millions will answer I prefer the sale of the least sum. Butterfield writes 
 
 me a second letter about funds, and I have telegraphed you this morning to reinforce 
 
 him. 
 
 Yojirs, truly, 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL. 
 Hon. Wm. a. Eicharbson, 
 
 Ai^g Sec. .Treas'y. 
 
 United States Tkbasuby, 
 
 New York, September 2, 1869. v 
 
 Dear Sir : I have not had sufiScient leisure to write concerning my advertisement 
 
 for bonds for this month. Do not know that I should have thought of doing so but for 
 
 the fact that the newspapers have been talking of my order being an error. I presume 
 
 it is correct, or I should nave heard to the contrary. 
 
 I inclose the two letters which marked out my course. These brought it simply to 
 the continuation of the sinking fund purchases on alternate Thursdays, and the weekly 
 purchase on Wednesdays of two millions. 
 If any error has been committed I should be glad to be advised of it and to correct it. 
 The low condition of my currency balance has aided in buying the bonds favorably 
 and cheaply, as it has been presumed that government would be compelled to cease 
 purchases. 
 
 I am, very respectfully, yours, &c., ' 
 
 DANIEL BUTTERFIELD. 
 Hon. Geo. S. Boutwell, 
 
 Secretary of Treasury, Washington, D. C. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 377 
 
 Nbw York, September 22, 1869. 
 Sin : There is a panic ia Wall street, engineered by a bear combination. Tliey have 
 •withdrawn currency to sncb an extent that it is impossible to do ordinary business. 
 The Erie Company requires eight hundred thousand dollars in currency to disburse to 
 the employes between New York and Cincinnati each month. Much of it in Ohio, 
 where an exciting political contest is going on, and where we have about ten thousand 
 employed, and the trouble is charged on the administration. Unless some instant re- 
 lief can be furnished by the government, trade and business will be at a dead-lock. 
 Eepresenting, as I do, a corporation of this magnitude, and of the disbursements re- 
 quired until the heavy crops are moved, cannot you, consistently, increase your line of 
 currency by giving to the banks some of the reserve which you have on hand ? You 
 will consider the exigencies of my corporation my excuse for troubling you with this 
 dispatch. 
 
 JAY GOULD, 
 President Erie Bailway- 
 Hon. Geo. S. Boutweli., 
 
 Secretary Treasury, Washington. 
 
 UxiTED States Tkbasxtry, 
 
 New TorJc, September 23, 1869. 
 
 My Deae Sik : Messrs. Duncan, Sherman & Co., a house of the highest respecta- 
 bility, submit the inclosed proposition. They desire to effect an arrangement whereby 
 they can relieve the exchange market, and aid in moving the crops. They propose 
 that their house, the Barings, of Loudon, will ship gold direct to nic ; that upon tele- 
 graphic advice from such official as you designate of the shipment of gold to me, they 
 will deposit any required amount of security in bonds or currency in order to receive 
 the gold prior to its arrival here. The house, which is one of the highest honor, pledge 
 themselves in no manner to operate for a rise or fall of gold, bat simply to sell exchange 
 and buy as a ready means to relieve the merchants. They would like a telegraphic 
 reply. • 
 
 I am, very respectfully, yours, &c., 
 
 DANIEL BUTTEEFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer. 
 Hon. Geo. S. Boutweix, Secretary Treasury. 
 
 Office of Duncan, Sherman & Co., Bankers, 
 
 New York, September 23, 1869. 
 My Dear Sir : At your request I report to you in writing my inquiry of this morn- 
 ing, viz: "If I furnish to the Treasury evidence that I have shipped from England 
 English sovereigns will the Treasury deliver me the gold at once, and in the meantime 
 what security will they require?" The object of this operation would be to afford some 
 relief to distressed merchants, who now are unable to move cotton or other exportable mer- 
 chandise, because they are unable to negotiate their exchange owing to the manipula- 
 tions of the operators in gold. Could I make some arrangement of this sort with you I 
 should invest every dollar in exchange, (sterling,) which could not but cause gold to de- 
 cline, increase the supply of gold in the country, and produce a most favorable impres- 
 sion upon the credit of the United States abroad.' If you can give me a favorable 
 answer I will at once make ajrangements for availing of it. 
 "With much respect, yours truly, 
 
 W. BUTLEE DUNCAN. 
 D. S. Butterfield, Esq., Assistant Treasurer. 
 
 Treasury Department, SeptcMber 24, 1869. 
 
 Sir : General Spinner has already written you that if absolutely necessary you can 
 use any portion of the $5,000,000 of United States notes forwarded on Wednesday last. 
 He has, however, sent forward to-day an additional sum of §1,000,000 for the purpose 
 of enabling you to make payment for to-morrow's purchase of bonds. The purchase of 
 bonds should not exceed the sale of gold to-morrow, as we cannot afford to reduce the 
 currency balance in the treasury. 
 
 The provision in the noti ce giving you the right to accept all bids for the sale of bonds 
 in excess of four millions of dollars was introduced now with nsference to the future, 
 when it might be desirable to accept bids in excess of the amount named in the adver- 
 tisement, and also for the puri)Ose of preventing fictitious bids. This provision you can 
 insert in the notice for the purchase of bonds hereafter. 
 
378 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Should the Wds for gold fall below 134 you wiU limit the sale to two imUions, and 
 accept hoads to a corresponding amount. . . . - 
 
 I have not replied by telegram to your dispatch asking authority to anticipate inter- 
 est on registered bonds, inasmuch as the books are not ready, and the sale of gold 
 probably removes the reason for the rec[uest. 
 Very respectfully, 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Secretary. 
 General Daiwel Buttebfibld, 
 
 United States Assistant Treasurer, New Torlc. 
 
 CORRESPONDENCE IN REGARD TO ALLEGED COMPLICITY IN THE GOLD 
 
 CORNER. 
 
 1. Assistant Treasurer New York to Secretary Treasury, October 6, 1869, bonds 
 offered, &o. 
 
 2. Secretary Treasury to Assistant Treasurer New York, October 8, 1869, leave fo 
 absence. 
 
 3. Assistant Treasurer New York to Sflcretaxy Treasury, October 11, 1869, complaining 
 of charges of complicity, &c. 
 
 4. Secretary Treasury to Assistant Treasurer New York, October 21, 1869, Lane's 
 letter *o Gould, published in New York Sun. ' 
 
 5. Same to same, October 22, 1889, advising resignation. 
 
 6. Assistant Treasurer New York to Secretary Treasury, October 22, 1869, inclosing 
 letter to the President United States, asking investigation. 
 
 7. Same to same; October 23, 1869, same subject. • 
 
 8. Same to same, October 22, 1869, positively denying complicity, &c. 
 
 9. Secretary Treasury to Assistant Treasurer New York, October 24, 1869, military 
 court of inquiry not advisable. 
 
 10. Assistant Treasurer at New York to Secretary Treasury, October 25, 1869, offering 
 official resignation. 
 
 11. Secretary Treasury to F. T. Frelinghuysen, November 1, 1869, requesting him to 
 act with Solicitor of the Treasury, &c. 
 
 12. Mr. Frelinghuysen to Secretary Treasury, November 2, 1869, agreeing to serve. 
 
 13. Secretary Treasury to Mr. Frelinghuysen, November 3, 1869, appointing him to 
 act with Mr. Banfield. 
 
 14. Secretary Treasury to Messrs. Frelinghuysen and Banfield, November 3, 1869, with 
 instructions. 
 
 15. Report of Messrs. Frelinghuysen and Banfield to Secretary Treasury, November 
 6, 1869. 
 
 16. Secretary Treasury to Mr. Butterfield, November 10, 1869, accepting resignation. 
 
 No. 1. 
 
 \_Prwaie, unofficiafi 
 
 United States Treasury, 
 
 New York, October 6, 1869. 
 My Dear Sir : I inclose the various slips which have come' in to me to-day. Money 
 works easier among the banks and bankers. Our offerings of bonds to-day were large. 
 If you will examine the list sent you, you will observe that there were many offers at 
 high prices. The accumuiated interest on 6 per cents, for instance, would be, with 
 gold at 30t, $2 10 in currency. Some people here have the idea that these offerings are 
 made to depress the bonds, knowing that they would be above the market and would 
 give the impression that there was a large amount hanging over the market. Mr. 
 Clews's reporter, you will perceive, alludes to our uneasy feeling, although there seems to 
 be'plenty of money. This latter fact is confirmed by absence of any 3 per cent, certifi- 
 cates coming in to-day. I fear that the work pressing upon me here, together with the 
 anxiety and responsibility, is making such inroads upon me, that I shall have to take a 
 flirlough ; perhaps, if it continues, have to resign. I mention this privately and confi- 
 dentially, hoping for a better turn in my condition physically. 
 I leave for home considerably exhausted always, sometimes entirely so. 
 Very truly yours, 
 
 DANIEL BUTTERFIELD. 
 Hon. George S. Boutwell, Secretary of the Treasury. 
 
 Inclosed: Various slips which came in during day from H. Clews & Co., and others. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 379 
 
 No. 2. 
 
 , October 8, 1869. 
 
 Dbae Geneeal : I regret to leam fcom your letter of the 6th instant that your health 
 is impaired. My earnest desire is that you should continue in the oflSce of assistant 
 treasurer, unless you find it necessary to resign in order to preserve your health. 
 Of course, if you desire it, leave of ahsenoe wiU tenanted. 
 Very truly, 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Secretary. 
 Gen, Daniei, Butterfield, 
 
 United, States Assistant Treasurer, New Yorlc. ' 
 
 No. 3. — {Personal.) 
 
 UiaTED States Tebasuey, 
 
 If^ew York, October 11, 1869. 
 My Deak Sir: Certain attacks having been made upon me, which I have not seen, 
 (hut heard of only,) alleging, as I understand, that complicity with the gold operations 
 has existed here in the treasury, it is my desire that in the event of these rumors mak- 
 iug any impression upon yourself or the President, you should inform yourself (by such 
 esamliiatiou and iuspeotion of books, clerks, records, employes, &c., here as yon may 
 think best) as to the probability of there being the slightest shadow or foimdation for 
 any truth in such statements. As to my own course privately, and unofftoially, I do 
 not propose to notice or reply to any of these attacks. My ofiScial acts and records are 
 open always to any of the newspaper people, as I have informed them. Further than 
 this, which i deem due to the President and yourself, I do not propose to respond to any 
 of the assaults. 
 
 I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 DANIEL BUTTEEFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer. 
 Hon. Geo. S. Boutwbll, Secretary of the Treasury. 
 
 No. 4. 
 
 Treasury Department, October 21, 1869. 
 Dear Sir : I have seen, as you have no doubt seen, a letter published in the New 
 York Sun of the 20th instant, written by Frederick A. Lane to Jay Gould. Generally 
 I am not disposed to regard newspaper statements ; but the public mind is properly 
 sensitive in reference to the management of the treasury, and I therefore feel that it 
 is my duty to call your attention to Mr. Lane's letter. 
 
 The suspicion that any person connected with the Treasury Department is engaged 
 in speculation is a misfortune ; but if the suspicion is without foundation, it can easily 
 be removed, or it will speedily disappear. 
 
 Mr. Lane's letter is particular in its statements, and so much in detail, that I am 
 satisfied it must make a serious impression upon the pubUo mind. In this view it 
 seems to me that it cannot be passed over in silence. All previous statements affect- 
 ing yon in the matter of the gold speculation have been indefinite in character, and 
 without the responsibility of a name, and I have, therefore, regarded them ae unworthy 
 of attention. 
 
 Not doubting that you will be able to relieve the public mind of any suspicion that 
 you were concerned in the speculation as alleged by Mr. Lane, I have the honor to 
 remain, 
 
 Very truly, yours, &c., 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Secretary. 
 General Da^s^iei, Buttereibed, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer XPnited States, New Torh. 
 
 • 
 
 No. 5. 
 
 October 22, 1869. 
 Sir: While I sincerely desire to avoid doing or Suggesting anything which shall 
 embarrass yon, I am yet constrained by a sense of duty to advise you to resign the 
 office of assistant treasurer at New York. 
 
380 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 This suggestion, I ought in. all fi-ankuess to say, is rendered necessary on my part 
 solely in consequence of the statements made that you were engaged in the recent 
 speculations in gold in that city. I regret the necessity of taking this step, for I am 
 of opinion that in the administration of the office you have been efficient, and therefore 
 deserve the approbation of the government. 
 
 It is not to be disguised, however, that in so important a trust entire abstinence 
 from all speculative operations depending in any way upon the action of the govern- 
 ment should be avoided. 
 Very respectfully, 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Secretary. 
 General Daniel Buttekfield, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer United States, New Yorh. 
 
 No. 6. — (^Personal.) 
 
 TJ^^TEI> States Teeasuey, 
 
 New Torlc, October 22, 1869. 
 My Dear Sib : I inclose correspondence to the President and yourself, which explains 
 itself. If approved by you, I wish that you would make public the letter to the Presi- 
 dent, or authorize me by telegraph to do so. I am advised by my friends and counsel 
 that I cannot and should not undertake a newspaper war with people as unscrupulous 
 and unprincipled as those who assail me. That this course affords the true one for 
 properly setting the matter straight and getting a proper refutation of these assertions, 
 I trust that my course wiU meet your approval. 
 
 I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 DANIEL BUTTEEFIELD. 
 Hon. Geo. S. Botjtwell, Secretary Treasury: 
 
 No. 7. 
 
 United States Treasury, 
 
 New York, Octobei- 22, 1869. 
 
 Dear Sir : I know of no other way that the charges and statements affecting my 
 conduct as an officer and a gentleman can be so fully, thoroughly, and fairly investigated 
 as by the method I have this day requested from the President and forwarded herewitli 
 through you. 
 
 Actmg under the advice of friends and counsel, I have remained silent, and taken no 
 notice of the charges and aspersions made. 
 
 The charge that I have been a party or had any interest in any combination to affect 
 the price ol or have bought any gold for such purposes, or with such parties, or au- 
 thorized any person or party whatever in any way to do so, is wholly and unqualifiedly 
 false. 
 
 The charge that I have received any pay, emolument, or profit for any service, inform- 
 ation or assistance to any such persons or parties, is wholly and entirely false. 
 
 The charge that the gold or funds of the treasury have been sold or used in any man- 
 ner other than under your directions and orders, and those of the Treasurer of the 
 United States, all of which are public, is wholly false. 
 
 The charge that I have used my private means in speculating in gold, or authorized 
 others to do so, is wholly false. 
 
 I cannot enter into details, item by item, of the various accusations made against me 
 otherwise than by a proper and thorough investigation. 
 
 As I still hold my commission in the army of the United States, which commission, 
 as well as the position I now occupy, I am uuwortliy to hold, if the various charges 
 made against me are true, I sincerely trust that yon may think xarojier to indorse my 
 request. I am advised by my counsel and friends that this course is the true one for 
 me to pursue. I should feel unsatisfied with any less formal and exact investigation 
 and examination. 
 
 Such a commission would have full power to investigate and RnmmnTi and compel 
 attendance of witnesses. If composed, as I trust it may be, of officers of the highest 
 standing and character in the army, its investigation and decision should be fully satis- 
 factory. It will be so to me. 
 
 I am, very resx^ectfully, you obedient servant, 
 
 DAN'L BUTTEEFIELD. 
 
 I adopt this method as one certain to bring a result. Should you deem any other 
 course preferable, I should be glad to adopt it. 
 Hon. George S. Bodtwbll, 
 
 Secretary of the Treasury. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 381 
 
 No. 8. — {PeraonaX and private.) 
 
 United States Tbbasuey, 
 
 Neil] YerJc, Octolier 22, 1869. 
 My Dear Sik : Since sending yon my letters of to-day, and upon reading retained 
 copy and reflection thereon, -while not desiring to bring my private affairs before the 
 public, I doem it due to you to say and affirm positively that I have never owned ten 
 thousaiid dollars in gold since I entered the sub-treasury. That my i^urchases of gold, 
 other than those made necessary in the execution of orders from proper authority have 
 been simply to pay little expenditures incurred for me abroad from time to time by 
 relatives. The whole amount would not exceed twenty five hundred dollars. Also to 
 say to you that F. A. Lane's statement referred to by you is false, and that Ms character 
 is not of sach a nature as to make his statements worthy of any consideration by reason 
 of his former transactions, well understood and known in this community. Previous 
 to the publication of his statement I had no knowledge of him or his character. What 
 I have since learned would have justified and prevented me from allowing him to enter 
 my office, and forbids me laying any stress or weight upon his accusations. 
 
 These things I cannot weU say for public print, but I can properly say them privately 
 to you. 
 
 I am, very respectfully, yours, 
 
 DANIEL BUTTEEFBELD, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer. 
 Hon. Geoege S. Boutwdll, 
 
 Secretary of the Treasury. 
 
 No. 9. 
 
 Tkeasuky Dbpaetmbnt, Washington, October 24, 1869. 
 My Dear Sir : Your letters of the 22d instant, to the President and to me, were 
 received yesterday morning. An inquiry into the truth of the charges made against 
 you seems to be demanded by the circumstances, but it does not appear to be practica- 
 ble to proceed by a military court of inquiry. 
 
 It is the earnest desire of the President, as it is my own earnest desire, to give you 
 
 an opportunity to show the facts of the case, which, we trust, will fully exonerate you. 
 
 We cannot, however, be indifferent to the duty of so conducting the investigation as 
 
 to leave ho room for complaint or criticism by any one. This can, I think, be best done 
 
 by first putting the office into other hands. 
 
 -In thus suggesting that your resignation will be accepted, I am anxious to so act 
 as to relieve you as far as possible from embarrassment. 
 
 Mr. Banfield, who will ]present this letter, is possessed of my views as set forth in this 
 communication. 
 
 I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELLj Secretary. 
 General Daotel Butteefibld. 
 
 No. 10. 
 
 United States Treasury, New TorTc, Octoher 25, 1869. 
 My Dear Sir : After an interview with Mr. Banfield, SoHoitor of the Treasury, bear- 
 ing your letter, I find that such an investigation as I have asked for cannot be accorded 
 me while holdin'g my office. 
 
 In order that your department may not be embarrassed in any examination of my 
 transactions as assistant treasurer — and also that I may secure the investigation I have 
 asked — I respectfully tender, through you, to the President of the United States my 
 resignation, to take effect as soon as a successor can be appointed and receipt to me for 
 the funds and pubUo property for which I am accountable. Eene wing my request for 
 the formal and authoritative examination that may forever settle ttie truth of the 
 charges against me, 
 
 I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 DANIEL BUTTEEFIELD, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer. 
 Hon. Geo. S. Boutweix, Secretary of the Treasury. 
 
382 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 No. 11. 
 
 Tkbasury Department, November 1, 1869. 
 
 Sir : At the request of the President I- write to ask you to aid in a service ■which is 
 not likely to he agreeahle to you, hut which under the circumstances seems necessary. 
 
 General Butterfleld very much desires that there should he an investigation of the 
 charges made against him of participation in the recent speculations in gold at New 
 York, hefore he leaves the office' of assistant treasurer, his resignation heing already 
 in my hands. He asserts his entire innocence and his confidence that he shall he ahle 
 to show it clearly if an opportunity is given him. 
 
 As an act of justice to him, and not in any way inconsistent with the puhlic interests, 
 the President desires, hefore General Butterfleld leaves the office, that such an investi- 
 gation shall he made as the cii'cumstances permit. As testimony cannot he taken under 
 oath, the most that can he done is to hear the statements of those persons who assert 
 General Butterfleld's complicity in the transactions referred to, and also his own state- 
 ment and the statements of any other persons that he may desire to hring forward. 
 
 I do not anticipate that the examination will he protracted, and as at present advised 
 I should not allow counsel to appear on either side. 
 
 Mr. Banfield, the •Solicitor of the Treasury, has already some information upon tlie 
 subject, and I desire to associate him with you in the investigation. You will find 
 him a gentleman of ahility and honor, who will act entirely in the puhlic interest. 
 
 I anticipate that it is possible that you may not he able to reach a satisfactory con- 
 clusion. If such should be the case we shall still have done what was in our power 
 under the circumstances to ascertain the truth, and neither General Butterfleld nor his 
 friends will have reason to complain of the department or of the President as to the 
 result. 
 
 I trust yon will be ahle to give us your aid in this matter, and also to name an early 
 day when you can enter upon the investigation. 
 Very respectfully, 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Seoretanj. 
 
 Hon. F. T. Frelinghuysbn, 
 
 NewarJc, New Jeisey. 
 
 No. 12. 
 
 Newark, New Jersey, Noveniber 2, 1869. 
 It being the request of the President and yourself that I should he associated with 
 Mr. Banfleld in the investigation of General Butterfleld's alleged complicity in the re- 
 cent gold speculations, I cannot decline, and I will meet the Solicitor of the Treasury, 
 in New York, at such early day and at such place as he may indicate. 
 Very respectfully, 
 
 FEED'K T. FEELINGHUYSEN. 
 Hon. Geo. S. Boutwell, 
 
 Seoretary of the Treaswry. 
 
 Inclosed : Telegram of October 23, 1869, to Secretary, from Fred. A. Lane, proffering 
 testimony in investigation. 
 
 No. 13. 
 
 Treasury Department, November 3, 1869. 
 My Dear Sir : I am much gratified that you have accepted the duty of making the 
 investigation referred to in my letter of the 1st instant. 
 
 Mr. Banfield will leave here to-morrow afternoon, and will he at the Fifth Avenue 
 Plotel Friday morning, where he will be pleased to meet you. 
 I am, very truly, 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL. 
 Hon. Frederick T. Frelinghuysen, 
 
 Neivark, New Jersey. 
 
 No. 14. 
 
 Treasury Department, Noveniber 3, 1869. 
 Gentlemen : By direction of the President you are hereby authorized and requested 
 to inquire into such charges as may he preferred hefore you against General Daniel 
 
GOLD PAJ^IC INVESTIGATION. 383 
 
 Bntterfield, relative to an alleged participation by him in the recent gold speculations 
 iu the city of Now York, and you wiU also hear and consider his own statement and 
 any statements or evidence submitted or introduced by him in his behalf. 
 
 Under the circumstances yon will be under the necessity of receiving such state- 
 ments without the solemnity of an oath ; but you will endeavor as far as practicable 
 to be governed in the inquiry by the ordinary rules of practice in the courts of law. 
 
 As at present advised I do not think it will be necessary to allow either party to in- 
 troduce counsel, believing that your own judgment and familiarity with modes of pro- 
 ceeding will enable jow with equal certainty and greater facility to reach just conclu- 
 sions. 
 
 It is desirable that the investigations should be brought to a conclusion as speedily 
 as is consistent with the object in view. 
 
 The only persons who have preferred charges against General Bntterfield to the de- 
 partment, or indicated a desire to offer testimony implicating him in the transactions 
 referred to, are Frederick A. Lane and Timothy C. Dwight, esq., both of whom are, I 
 believe, residents of New York. Should they not present themselves, I desire that 
 they should be notified that you are prepared to hear what may be offered by them in 
 reference to the matters committed to you. 
 
 Very respectfully, your obedient servant, 
 
 Hon. F. T. Feelinghuysen and 
 E. C. Banfibld, Esq. 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Secretary. 
 
 No. 15. 
 
 New Yokk, November 6, 1869. 
 
 Sir: The undersigned, appointed by yon, at the request of the President, to investi- 
 gate the alleged complicity of General Daniel Bntterfield, assistant treasurer of the 
 United States, in the recent gold speculations in New York, respectfully report, that on 
 the 5th instant we waited upon General Bntterfield, at his office in this city, and in- 
 formed him that we had been appointed to conduct an investigation in reference to the 
 matter above referred to, and we told him at the same time the manner in which the 
 investigation would be conducted, namely : that not having the power we could not 
 take testimony under oath, <cr compel the attendance of witnesses, and could not try the 
 question by affidavits ; that wo would hear such allegations as might be made in refer- 
 ence to his participation in those speculations, and would also hear such answer as he 
 desired to make to such charges, and also hear statements from other persons either to 
 maintain or disprove the charges, if any, brought against him ; that ftom the nature of 
 the investigation we had concluded not to permit counsel for either party, but that each 
 party could be present during the investigation ; that it would be our purpose not to 
 give publicity to our proceedings, but at the same time, from their very nature, they 
 would to a greater or less degree become known to the public ; that all the statements 
 would be taken down in writing, and be required to be signed by those making them, 
 after which we would make report to your department whether in our opinion he had 
 or had not participated in those speculations ; and we then desired to know of General 
 Bntterfield whether he was prepared to submit to this investigation, and when we 
 should proceed with it. 
 
 General Bntterfield then informed us that he desired to take until this morning to 
 give US an answer to our inquiry. We waited upon him this morning, when he said 
 that while he was very desirous of having a suitable investigation iu order that any 
 cloud might be removed from his official conduct, yet from the nature of the case he felt 
 that it would be injustice to liimself to submit to an investigation where the charges 
 against him were not verified by oath, and where the tribunal investigating had no 
 power to compel the attendance of witnesses ; that a portion of his reply to any charges 
 would be of such a character, affecting the credibility of witnesses, that witnesses would 
 be unwilling to volunteer their statements, and that he would be reluctant to go into 
 such an inquiry as that proposed in his present condition of health without the aid of 
 counsel, and without further reflection, and as at present advised he felt unwilling to 
 enter upon an investigation of this nature. 
 
 As our duty in reference to this matter, as we understand it, is based on General But- 
 terfield's voluntarily submitting his case to us, wo have taken no further action in the 
 premises. 
 
 We are, very respectfully, 
 
 FEED'K PEELINGHUYSEN. 
 E. C. BAjSTFIELD. 
 
 Hon. George S. Boctwell, 
 
 Secretary of the Treasury, Washington, D. C. 
 
384 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 No. 16. 
 
 Teeasuey Depaetmbnt, NmieMber 10, 1869. 
 Sm : Your letter of the 25th ultimo, tendering your resignation as assistant treasurer 
 at New York, -was duly received, and I am nowdu-ectedhy the President to inform yon 
 that your resignation is accepted, to tate effect when your successor is duly qualified. 
 Hon. Chas. J. Folger has heen appointed to the office, and he will probably enter upon 
 the discharge of its duties without unnecessary delay. 
 
 In thus accepting your resignation I am able to say that you have shown great energy 
 and industry in the office, and I am satisfied that the changes introduced by you will 
 tend to accuracy and safety in the management of its affairs. 
 Very respectfully, 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, Secretary. 
 General Daktel Butteepield, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer Vnited States, New Torlc. 
 
 "WASHINGTON, February 2, 1870. 
 E. C. Baetlett sworn and examined: 
 
 To the Chairman: 
 
 I am private secretary to the Secretary of the Treasury; I have held 
 that position since the 15th of March last. 
 
 Question. Do you recollect writing a dispatch, at the dictation of the 
 Secretary, near noon of the 24th September, to General Butterfield, 
 assistant treasurer at New York?-^Answer. Tes; I wrote fcwo dis- 
 patches, both the same, one to be sent by the Western Union Telegraph 
 Company, and the other to be sent by the Franklin Telegraph Company; 
 one left the office at 11:42 a. m., and the other at 11:45 a. m.; I marked 
 the time on the dispatches. 
 
 Q. Was any person present when you wrote the dispatches?— A. No 
 one but the Secretary. 
 
 Q. Are you a short-hand writer to the Secretary? — ^A. I am. 
 
 Q. The Secretary dictated to you, and you wrote it down? — A. Tes, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Did you take a copy of those dispatches before they were sent?— 
 A. I gave them to the messenger, and he took a press copy in the usual 
 way. 
 
 Q. How long a time after the dispatch was written was it before it 
 was sent to the office? — ^A. I think about two minutes; it would not he 
 much over that, because I told the messenger to hurry. 
 
 Q. Did you seal the dispatches up in an envelope? — ^A. E"o, sir. 
 
 Q, You delivered the dispatches open to the messenger? — ^A. Yes; I 
 gave it to the messenger, Johnson, to have it copied. 
 
 Q. Which one did you send first?— A. I think I sent the one to the 
 Franklin telegraph office first; the two offices are on Fifteenth street, 
 immediately opposite the Treasury ; they are about three or four doors 
 from each other. 
 
 Q. Have you any other direct knowledge of your own in regard to 
 sending the dispatches, except what you have now ^iven? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 (Witness afterward appeared before the committee and corrected his 
 testimony as follows :) 
 
 On subsequent reference to the press copies of the dispatches above 
 referred to, I find I was mistaken in supposing that the first was taken 
 to the Franklin telegraph office ; it was taken to the Western Union 
 office; the time at which the dispatches left the Secretary's office was 
 written by me on the press copies, instead of on the original dispatches. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 385 
 
 Washington, February 2, 1870. 
 Hbney Johnson sworn and examined: 
 
 To the Chairman: 
 
 I am messenger to Secretary Boutwell; my duties are to carry mes- 
 sages from the Secretary's office to other rooms in the building, and out- 
 side; I was on that duty in the month of September last; I remember 
 having carried a dispatch on the 24th of September last; Mr. Bartlett 
 gave me that dispatch; it was on the usual printed form. 
 
 Question, Was it in an envelope? — ^Answer. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What instructions did you receive? — ^A. I received no particular 
 instructions, except to take it immediately to the press office and have 
 a copy taken thereof, and then to take it to the telegraph office; the 
 press office is on the other side of the hall from the Secretary's room; a 
 man named BeU copied it, and I stood by his side while it was being 
 copied; I do not suppose I was in the room one minute; I then took the 
 telegram and gave the press copy to another messenger at the door, 
 (Burrill Nickson,) and took the telegram proper immediately to the tel- 
 egraph office, and delivered it to the operator. 
 
 Q. From the time you received this dispatch from Mr. Bartlett until 
 you reached the telegraph office, how long was it? — A. I do not suppose 
 it was more than from three to five minutes ; I first went to the Franklin 
 telegraph office, and then came back and carried the other telegram to 
 theWestem Union office; I delivered the dispatch in the Franklin office 
 to the gentleman who is behind the counter, Mr. Garland, I beUeve; from 
 the time I received it I carried it with the face down, and handed it to 
 him over the counter. 
 
 Q. Did you read it yourself? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you say anything to him at the time of delivering it? — A. Not 
 a word. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything in response? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What did you do on your return from the Franklin office? — A. I 
 had scarcely got back before Mr. Boutwell's bell sounded agaim and I 
 went in, and another dispatch was given me to bring to the Western 
 Union office; I took the same course with it, and delivered it at the 
 office of the Western Union Telegraph Company, which is situated some 
 doors from the Franklin office; I delivered that dispatch to a lady who 
 is now present in the committee room. 
 
 Q. Did you read the contents of that dispatch? — A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Did you say anything to the person to whom yon delivered it? — A. 
 Not a word. 
 
 Q. How long a time intervened from your receipt of the first dispatch 
 until you delivered the last? — A. I should not suppose five minutes. 
 
 Q. Did you show either of those dispatches to any person on the way ? — 
 A. Not to a solitary person; I had not a word with any one between 
 the Secretary's office and the telegraph office; I do not recollect that Mr. 
 Bartlett gave me any particular instructions; we always act upon the 
 supposition that telegrams are to be acted on immediately; we have 
 
 feneral orders to have the utmost dispatch in delivering a "telegram; I 
 ave been accustomed to deliver such telegrams; iu that instance I 
 delivered the dispatch with the accustomed promptness and rapidity, 
 no more and no less. 
 
 (Witness afterward appeared before the committee and corrected his 
 testimony as follows :) 
 On referring to the copies of the dispatches on file in the department, 
 H. Eep. 31 25 
 
386 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 I find I must have been mistaken in saying the dispatch was first taken 
 to the Franklin ofiace; the indorsements show that it was first sent to 
 the Western Union. 
 
 Washington, February 2, 1870. 
 BuREiLL HiCKSON sworu and examined. 
 
 To the Chairman : 
 
 I am a messenger in the ofl&ce of the Secretary of the Treasury, I am 
 stationed at the door of the Secretary's office. I was acting in that 
 capacity in the month of September last. I remember receiving a dis- 
 patch that came from the room of the Secretary of the Treasury on the 
 24th of September, near noon. It was given to me by Mr. Johnson, the 
 messenger. I have no knowledge of its contents. I took the press copy 
 to the Secretary's room, and put it in a bakset where private papers are 
 generally kept. I did not read its contents. I do not recoUect that I 
 took any other message about that time. That is my ordinary business. 
 
 Question. Did you let any one see the paper that you carried?— 
 Answer, ifo, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you meet any one who requested to see it ? — A. I did not. 
 
 Washington, February 2, 1870. 
 E. Oakeie Cook sworn and examined. 
 
 To the Chairman : 
 
 My present residence is at 669 New Jersey avenue. I am a telegraph 
 operator. I was employed as a telegraph operator on the 24th Septem- 
 ber last in the office of the Western Union Telegraph Company on 
 Fifteenth street. I recollect receiving a dispatch from the Secretary of 
 the Treasury to General Butterfield near noon of that day. I think the 
 dispatch was delivered to me by one of those gentlemen who has given 
 his evidence. I do not know his name. I knew him to be a messenger 
 who had often brought messages from the Secretary of the Treasury. 
 
 Question. State, as near as you recollect, what the contents of that 
 dispatch were? — Answer. It was a dispatch to General Butterfield, at 
 New York, authorizing him to sell $4,000,000 of gold and to buy $4,000,000 
 of bonds, as far as I recollect. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect the time of day at which the message was re- 
 ceived ? — A. I think it was a little before noon. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 ,Q. Did the message come in a sealed envelope? — A. I think not; as 
 far as I recollect, it came open. That is the usual way in which they 
 come from the Treasury. Occasionally they come in envelopes. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Was it in cipher? — A. No, sir; it was written out distinctly. 
 
 Q. Did you send it over the wires ? — A. I did. 
 
 Q. How soon after you received it did you commence sending it?— 
 A. If I recollect distinctly, I broke in on a wire as soon as I could to 
 send the message, as we are authorized to do with very important mes- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 387 
 
 Q. now long did you require to transmit it? — A. About one minute 
 and a half, or two minutes. 
 
 Q. Was anybody else in the office at the time ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. You were the only person who saw it after it was delivered at the 
 office ? — ^A. The only one. 
 
 Q. Was there any person inside the office who could have seen it ! — 
 A. No one. 
 
 Q. Did any one come in with the messenger? — A. As far as I recollect, 
 he^came^alone; and I do not think that there was any other customer 
 in the offliee at the time. 
 
 Q. Did you send a duplicate of that message to any person ? — ^A. No, 
 sir: I do not think that I did. 
 
 Q. Did you communicate the substance of that message to any person, 
 except as you sent it over the wires ? — A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Did any person on that occasion ask you any question about the 
 message and its contents ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect whether you sent any other messages about that 
 time relating to the sale of gold 1 — A. I think 1 did send several for dif- 
 ferent parties in the usual course of business. 
 
 (Witness was requested to send to the committee a memorandum of 
 other dispatches sent by her that morning relating to gold.) 
 
 Q. Duiing that whole period of several days did you send a good 
 many messages on that subject? — A. I did, in the ordinary course of 
 business. 
 
 Q. Did you send the dispatch directly to New York ? — A. I did not ; 
 I sent it to the main office, corner Pennsylvania avenue and Fourteenth 
 street. 
 
 Q. Why did you not send it directly to New York ? — A. I endeavored 
 to do so, but could not get possession of the thr^gh wire, and so sent 
 it to the main office. -' 
 
 Q. State, to the best of your recollection, how long it was after you 
 received the message before it went over the wire ? — A. I am fully confi- 
 dent that it was five minutes. 
 
 Q'. Are you fully confident of it from your own recollection, or from 
 the marks on the original f — A. From my own recollection. 
 
 Q. What were you doing during that five minutes! — ^A. Walking from 
 one instrument to another, trying to get it off. 
 
 Q. Did you get it ofi as soon as possible under the circumstances ? — 
 A. I did. 
 
 Q. What do you do with the office copies of messages sent over your 
 wire ? — A. I send them to the main office on Fourteenth street. They 
 remain in the office every night, locked up, and are sent to the main 
 office every morning. 
 
 Q. Was there any mark on the dispatch which you received made at 
 the Treasury, or made before you received it, indicating time ? — A. There 
 was,, not, if this is a correct copy, as furnished by Mr. Tinker. 
 
 Q. Is the entry 11.45 your entry ? — A. It is my entry. 
 
 Q. Do you know how the clock in your office compared that day with 
 the clock in the Treasury ? — ^A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you know how the clock in your office compared with the clock 
 in the main office ? — A. I cannot say. 
 
 Q. AVhat was the habit, at that time, as to adjusting these clocks? — 
 A. The order is to get observatory time at 12 o'clock, over all the wires 
 every day; but the clock which I had in my office at the time was not 
 a correct time-keeper. I timed it every morning by my watch, and I 
 
388 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 often timed messages by my watcli ; but tbat morning I timed the mes- 
 sage by the clock. 
 
 Q. Is your city -wire, over which you sent this message to the main 
 office, connected with Willard's Hotel?— A. It is not. 
 
 Q. Is it connected with any other place except the main office?— A. It 
 was connected at that time with the Post Office, and, I think, with the 
 Metropolitan Hotel. 
 
 Q. Could an operator tell, by the ear, in either of those offices, what 
 you were sending to the main office ?— A. Tes, sir. Every operator can 
 read what is going over the wires. I ca,n read aU the messages passing 
 from the South to !N"ew York. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the message, sent feom the main office, was 
 sent over the Bankers' and Brokers' wire ? — A. It was. 
 
 Q. Have you been accustomed to work over the Bankers' and Brokers' 
 wire? — A. t have. I send aU the bank business and aU Jay Cooke's 
 business by it. 
 
 Q. Do you know what connections that brokers' wire has between 
 Washington and B'ew York ?— A. I believe it has connections in Phila^ 
 delphia and Baltimore. 
 
 WASHEsraTON, Fehnmry 2, 1870. 
 J. G. G-AELAND sworn and examined. 
 To the Ohaieman: 
 
 I reside in Washington city. lam manager of the Franklin telegraph 
 office here. That is an opposition line to the Western Union. The two 
 lines are in no way connected. I was an operator in the Frankh'n tele- 
 graph office on the 24th September last. I recollect having received on 
 that day a dispatch to be transmitted from the Secretary of the Treasury 
 to General Butteriield, assistant treasurer at New York. I sent the 
 dispatch myself, and I think I remember the wording of it. 
 
 Witness subsequently furnished the committee with the following 
 copy of the telegram referred to : 
 
 [Telegram. — By Franklin line.] 
 
 Tebastjky Dbpaetment, September 24, 1869. 
 
 General D^vnibl Butteefibld, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer U. S., New York: 
 Sell four millions (4,000,000) gold to-morrow and buy four millions (4,000,000) tonds, 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, 
 
 Secretary of the Treaswy' 
 Chg. to dep't.— G. S. B. 
 
 " This telegram was handed in to me by Mr. Johnson, one of the Secretary's messea- 
 gers, at 11.38 a. m., and New York gave " O. K." to it at 11.40 a. m. 
 " Respectfully, &c., 
 
 "J. G. GAELAND." 
 
 I have had that telegram brought to my mind before on account of 
 reports that I saw in the newspapers. I took the dispatch myself 
 right out of the hands of the messenger of the Secretary of the Treasury, 
 and I forwarded it mysehf to New York, all inside of the space of one 
 minute. 
 
 Q. Who gave you the dispatch ? — A. This young man, (indicating the 
 witness, Henry Johnson.) 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 389 
 
 Q. Has lie been in the habit of bringing messages from the Treasury 
 to your offtco ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he say anything when he delivered the dispatch to you ? — A. 
 Not that I am aware of. 
 
 Q. Did you say anything to him ? — A. I think not. 
 
 Q. "Was there anybody.in the office at the time besides yourself? — 
 A. I think there was no one there but my assistant. 
 
 Q. Did you show the dispatch to your assistant before you sent it? — 
 A. No, sir. I did not show it to any one. I took it right out of the 
 hands of the messenger, and sent it myself. 
 
 Q. Did he make any inquiry ui reference to its contents? — A. No, sir. 
 My desk is quite close to where I was when I took the dispatch from 
 the messenger. I immediately put the number on my number book, sat 
 down at the instrument, called New York, and sent the message. 
 
 Q. You sent no intervening message? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you send any message to any person other than General Bnt- 
 terfleld in reference'to that message ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did yon during that day communicate to any person the fact of 
 having sent such a message?— A. No, sir. Mr. Boutwell does his busi- 
 ness generally through our office, and I take great pride in doing it. I 
 have always issued strict instructions to the messenger who takes a dis- 
 patch from Mr. Butterfleld or Mr. Polger to the Secretary to wait at the 
 Secretary's door and get an answer. 
 
 Q. What is the name of your operator who received this dispatch of 
 the 24th of September at the other end of the line ? — A. That I do not 
 know; but I know that the manager of the office, in aU cases, either 
 takes these messages himself or follows the messenger boy, who takes 
 them right to the door of Mr. Folger. 
 
 Q. How long has your line been in the habit of sending dispatches for 
 the Treasury Department? — ^A. Only since Mr. Boutwell's administra- 
 tion commenced. We never could get in before that. 
 
 Washington, D. C, February 2, 1870. 
 Chajbles Oallender sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chaikman : 
 
 Question. State your residence and occupation. — Answer. My resi- 
 dence is at 45 Fulton street, Newark, N. J. My occupation is that of 
 examiner of national banks under the Comptroller of the Currency. 
 
 Q. How long have you held that office? — A. Four years, I think, in 
 January. 
 
 Q. Yo» were acting in that capacity in the month of September last. — 
 A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. State whether you made any examination of the Tenth National 
 Bank during the month of September. — A. No, sir, I did not. 
 
 Q. State whether you were familiar with the affairs of that bank dur- 
 ing that month or any part of it. — A. I was, so far as a general obser- 
 vation of the affairs of aU the banks in the city. 
 
 Q. Was that bank distressed in making its settlements any time dur- 
 ing that month ? — A. The only day that it was distressed was on Satur- 
 day, the 25th of September, after the black Friday. 
 
 Q. What was that distress?— A. On Friday the bank had had a se- 
 vere run, consequent upon the gold panic, and on Saturday morning 
 
390 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 it came up largely indebted to tlie clearing-house. The bank did not 
 meet its indebtedness as promptly as it ought to have done. It was not 
 paid up to two o'clock. I do not recollect the exact amount of indebt- 
 edness. They were straining every nerve to pay the drain upon them 
 over their counter, and I supposed that had left them without means to 
 pay their indebtedness to the clearing-house. 
 
 Q. How much were they short?— A. They were short about $152,000 
 at two o'clock. 
 
 Q. Were they short by any more than that amount at any time dur- 
 ing the day? — A. They had arranged duriug the day all but that amount 
 of balance. That was aU the balance they were reported as deficient, 
 
 Q. How much cash had they on hand at any time ? — A. I cannot say. 
 I had made no examination of it. 
 
 Q. What assistance, if any, did you give the bank in settling this 
 balance? — A. I found the bank debtor to the clearing-house at tw 
 o'clock, and I put myseK in communication with the bank clearing-house 
 committee, of which Mr. J. D. Vermilyea, president of the Merchants' 
 Bank, was chairman. I had nothing to do about looking into the mat- 
 ters of the bank. There was a special committee in the bank examining 
 it. That committee was sent on by the Secretary of the Treasury. I 
 had been absent from the city attending the funeral of my mother-in-law. 
 I left town Thursday afternoon, and advised Mr. Knox, deputy comp- 
 troller of the currency, who was in New York at that time. 1 asked 
 him to write to the Comptroller, and say to him that I was obliged to 
 leave, owing to the death of my mother-in-law. I came from the funeral 
 on Friday night, and found the difficulty in New York. I.went to the 
 clearing-house to see if they had cleared their balance, and I found 
 there was a deficiency of $152,000. Mr. Dickinson, president of the 
 bank, stated that while he held certified checks on other banks for a 
 larger amount than that, he was unable to collect these checks because 
 of the banks refusing to pay him greenbacks upon them under an 
 arrangement with the clearing-house that one bank shall not present to 
 other banks certified checks for greenbacks, but that the checks shall 
 be settled by the clearing-house and not over the counter. I said to the 
 clearing-house committee, that if they would give me fifteen minutes I 
 thought I could arrange that balance and prevent the failure of the 
 bank. They asked me how. I told them that I would arrange so that 
 I could draw these checks. Then I went to one bank, which I knew 
 was a large creditor and which had plenty of greenbacks, and asked 
 them to take these certified checks and let me have $152,000 for them, 
 in order to pay the balance of the Tenth National Bank. This was the 
 Bank of New York, which is in the same building with the clearing- 
 house. This was done, of course, with the consent of the president of 
 the Tenth National Bank, after a little hesitation. I urged him to it so 
 as to prevent the failure of the bank, because I said to him that it was 
 all in the plan to have one bank fail and to follow it with the failure of 
 another. 
 
 Q. In what plan ? — A. There was a combination there to break some 
 of our national banks. It had its origin in a purpose to seize that 
 ojiportunity to make confusion and to bring about a financial crisis. 
 
 Q. Did you understand that that combination was the same as the 
 gold combination ? — A. No, sir. It was an opposition to the gold com- 
 bination. It was not strictly an opposition to the gold combination, but 
 it was another combination formed in the exigencies of the moment. 
 Certain parties who were in favor of the State bank system, and certain 
 parties who were largely interested, I think, in the Gold Exchange Bank, 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 391 
 
 and other State organizations, and certain capitalists who were "?ears in 
 stocks, seized the opportunity of the crisis in gold to undertake to make 
 a crisis in stocks. 
 
 Q. State all your reasons for believing that such a combination 
 existed. — A. I became satisfied mat the movement to send on a special 
 commission to examine certain national banks in ISTew York had its 
 origin in one clique that desired to break this gold conspiracy, and in 
 another clique that was desirous of "bearing" stocks; and, I think, 
 they moved together. I cannot give you the names composing these 
 cliques. I have tried very assiduously to ascertain definitely the names, 
 and I have not been able to reach satisfactorily to myself the names 
 of all the parties concerned. I should not wish to give any names to 
 the detriment of other parties ; but I was satisfied from the manner in 
 which they manipulated the thing that there was that determination, 
 from the fact that the committee which went on to 'New York said to 
 me confidentially, that they had instructions to examine the Tenth 
 National Bank, ajid then they mentioned other banks. I knew what 
 that meant. I thought it was reaching further than merely the gold 
 clique. 
 
 Q. Prom whom did they report that they had instructions? — A. From 
 the Secretary of the Treasury and the Comptroller of the Currency. 
 That was said to me in conversation, and nobody else knew it. I kne^ 
 that the influence which brought them there to examine the Tenth IsTa- 
 tional Bank meant a great deal more than mere opposition to the gold 
 clique. I had to form my conclusions hastily. Everything is done in a 
 hurry in New York City, and especially in such an exciting time as that. 
 When I raised this money for the assistance of the Tenth National Bank 
 I did it with a full conviction in my own mind that the failure of that 
 . bank would be followed by raids on other banks, and that the determi- 
 nation was to effect a general crash and a distrust of our national bank- 
 ing system; and subsequent developments in the matter of the Gold 
 Exchange Bank confirmed me in that opinion. I was invited by the 
 clearing-house committee to meet with them when they were discussing 
 the matter. They had their counsel present. There seemed to be an 
 apathy on the part of all the State bank officials in regard to the matter. 
 I could not understand it. The superintendent of the State bank de- 
 partment of Albany (Mr. Schuyler, I think his name was) was sent for 
 by the committee at my suggestion. The Gold Exchange Bank had 
 been placed in the hands of a receiver by the court, and there was np 
 power, seemingly, to get at the books of the bank to ascertain whether 
 it was solvent or not. In the course of settlement with the Gold Ex- 
 change Bank it became an element of necessity almost for the clearing- 
 house committee to understand what the condition of the bank was. 
 They were fearful of attachment. They brought their counsel, Judge 
 Emott, there, and he decided that there was no power to examine the 
 books of the Gold Exchange Bank, so as to haye an intelligible ex- 
 hibit. I suggested then that it M-as perfectly proper for them to send for 
 the superintendent of the State bank department at Albany, and that 
 he certainly had the power. He was telegraphed for, and came down 
 by the steamer that night. That was the Wednesday or Thursday of 
 the week immediately following this black Friday. When he came in to 
 the clearing-house committee next morning he decided that he had no 
 power to examine that bank. It had been placed in the hands of a 
 receiver by the court, and he doubted his authority to go in and examine 
 whether the bank was solvent or not. It was a matter of great surprise 
 to me because I knew that by our law it could be done. Judge Emott 
 
392 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 ^vas of the opinion that he had the authority. All the subsequent de- 
 velopments convinced me that the opposition to the national banking 
 system had united at the time, thinking that it was a good opportunity 
 to make a raid, and that the gold panic was really seized upon by other 
 parties than those immediately interested in gold. As it always is in New 
 York City you cannot get up a skirmish in one thing but all other in- 
 terests are involved more or less before you get through. I went to the 
 Bank ofNew York and arranged with Mr. James H. Banker, the vice presi- 
 dent, to pay the balance due the clearing-house by the Tenth National Bank, 
 $152,000, he taking certified checks on other banks, which the Tenth 
 National Bank had received that day in payment of loans which it had 
 called in. This was on Saturday, I then went to the Tenth National 
 Bank and found a large crowd outside and inside, and a good deal of ex- 
 citement, and I found that the bank was very low in greenbacks. I 
 asked them for whatever they had in the shape of securities. They 
 gave me certain certified checks on other banks, on which those banks 
 had refused to pay greenbacks. I went with those certified checks to 
 the banks and got greenbacks for them. As soon as I presented the 
 checks, the greenbacks were paid without any question. They said : 
 "Oh, yes, we will pay them to you." If any bank had not paid them I 
 ^ould have protested such bank. I made a report to the Comptroller 
 of the Currency. 
 
 Q. Why would not the clearing-house receive the certified checks 
 which the Tenth National Bank held against other banks ? — ^A. By the 
 rules of the clearing-house it cannot receive anything in payment for 
 balances but legal-tender notes or clearing-house certificates. 
 
 Q. Will not a certified check of a national bank get a clearing-house 
 certificate ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. SMITH : 
 Q. They are used in the clearing-house to determine balances!— A. 
 Oh, yes. They send all their certified checks there in the morning, but 
 the balance"- due the clearing-house must be paid in greenbacks. 
 
 By the Chaibman : 
 
 Q. And in this case, the Tenth National Bank was unable to pay its 
 balance except in certified checks 1 — A. The bank was unable to pay its 
 balance in greenbacks. The rules of the clearing-house forbid banks 
 presenting certified checks to other banks for payment over the counter, 
 and the clearing-house itself would not receive them. But I went with 
 those certified checks to those other banks, and demanded greenbacks, 
 and got them. I paid the balance due to the clearing-house by the 
 Tenth National Bank, and furnished over $100,000 to the bank with 
 which to meet the run at its counter, and to enable it to pay everything 
 on demand. 
 
 Q. Have you, since that time, examined theT^ank, to see whether it 
 lost anything by those transactions ? — A. Yes ; I looked over their 
 ajffairs, cash items and loans, and I know that there are some things in 
 abeyance now unsettled, but nothing that invalidates the capital of the 
 bank in the least. The bank has a surplus, and I am satisfied that its 
 stock to-day is worth 105. It is selling at 107. 
 
 Q. Did the bank violate the law, during those days, in any respect, 
 so far as you know ? — A. I think not. The committee that was exam- 
 ining the bank during those two days, Friday and Saturday, would be 
 competent to tell ; I cannot tell. 
 
 Q. From your own knowledge and information, formally and inform- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 393 
 
 ally, you cannot say whether the bank did or not ? — ^A. I think it did 
 not. That bank, of all other banks in New York City, had been exam- 
 ined by myself, and pretty thoroughly overhauled on violations of law. 
 
 Q. At what time ? — ^A. In April last. That was my last previous ex- 
 amination ; I made four or five reports, which are on file. 
 
 Q. You said, in your testimony a little while ago, that you regarded 
 the movement which led to the appointment of these examiners as one 
 hostile to the national banks. What do you know about the immediate 
 causes that led to the appointment of these examiners ? At whose in- 
 stance, and on whose complaints, as far as you know, were they ap- 
 pointed'? — A. It is a general knowledge. I cannot specify names; 
 but I have my information from several bank presidents. The primary 
 movement was made by parties who were largely short of gold, and were 
 opposed to the clique generally. They said : " Here, we cannot break this 
 clique; it is too powerful, as a gold clique, for us to break it; but there 
 is one thing we can do. If we can get a special committee from Wash- 
 ington to examine that bank, we can perhaps prevent its certifying 
 checks for them, and thus prevent their banking facilities for carrying 
 gold, and that will break the clique." As soon as this special committee 
 makes its appearance in 'Sew York City, these parties go right to work 
 and tell other parties, and they get up an excitement in the stock board 
 by saying that a select committee of investigation of three is in such a 
 bank, and that that bank has got to fail. Away go stocks. People 
 sell out. They say that if a bank is going to fail, it is going to make 
 trouble. They let their stocks go, and then these people who have 
 money and who understand it all, buy these stocks low. 
 
 Q. Do you now think that there was anything in the condition of the 
 Tenth National Bank which required a special examination ? — A. No 
 more than any other broker's bank. Indeed, I suppose, and am quite 
 convinced, that the transactions of the gold clique were carried on as 
 much through other banks as through the Tenth National Bank. 
 
 Q. What relations, if any, do you understand the gold clique had to 
 the Tenth National Bank ? — A. They were supposed, by the public, to 
 own a controlling interest in the stock. That is, the Erie railroad was 
 supposed to own half a million of stock of the Tenth National Bank. I 
 knew that they had parted with a large portion of their interest to other 
 parties. 
 
 Q. Friendly or unfriendly to them? — A. Friendly, of course. 
 
 Q. Did the fact of their parting with a portion of their interest change 
 the fact of their having really a controlling influence in it? — ^A. No, sir ; 
 except that they did not have a majority of the direction of the Tenth 
 National Bank at that time. 
 
 Q. To what extent, or in what respect, did the gold clique get help 
 from the Tenth National Bank ? — A. I do not think they got any, be- 
 yond what other firms got. 
 
 Q. To what extent did tho Tenth National Bank certify checks for 
 any member of the clique, so far as you know 1 — A. I have not the 
 figures before me. They certified very largely. But the Tenth National 
 Bank would not have certified checks for the gold clique, except to the 
 amount that other banks had certified checks previously, and that those 
 checks had been deposited in the Tenth National Bank. Every certi- 
 fied check multiplies itself. 
 
 Q. Would you regard 24,000,000 of certification, by that bank, on 
 ThurMay, as an undue amount? — ^A. Yes, sir; but still it has been 
 larger in other banks of less capital, at times of great stock excite- 
 ment. 
 
394 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 By Mr. Bubchaed : 
 
 Q. When you say that every certified check multiplies itself, do you 
 mean to say that, if the First National Bank, for instance, certifies a 
 check for $100,000, and that check is taken to the Tenth M'ational Bank, 
 and deposited, that it is thereby doubled 1 — A. Yes. It is doubled iu 
 the clearing-house accounts, and it may go in the same way through a 
 dozen banks, so that in the clearing-house it would represent $1,200,000. 
 
 Q. Did you come on to Washington on any of those days ? — A. I did. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with the authorities at the treas- 
 ury, in reference to the appointment of the commission? — ^A. No, sir. 
 The appointment was made entirely without my knowledge. I was 
 away when it was made, and knew nothing about it. They went on 
 Thursday night, and I left New York the same night, on my way to 
 within fifteen miles of Albany. This commission made its appearance 
 at the bank on Friday morning, and I knew nothing about it tiU Satm'- 
 day morning, when I returned. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the commission completed its examination 
 or noti — A. They assured me, at one o'clock on Saturday, that they had 
 completed it. 
 
 Q. Do you know the reason why they were recalled fi?om their general 
 work of examining national banks ? — A. They were not sent as a gen- 
 eral examining committee. They were sent with specific instructions. 
 
 Q. But they had also instructions wider than that bank alone ? — A. 
 Yes. I do not know the reason why they were recalled. I came to 
 Washington Saturday night, telegraphing to the Secretary and Comp- 
 troller of the Currency that I would like to see them on Sunday. When 
 I saw Mr. Boutwell in the morning, he said to me, before I said any- 
 thing: "We recalled that committee last night. They will make no 
 further examination." I spent Sunday in Washington, and went back 
 Sunday night. I do not know what reason led them to recall the com- 
 mittee, except that they were satisfied that I could attend to the duties. 
 I have received assurances, both from the Secretary and the Comp- 
 troller of the Currency, that they did not deem it prudent to have the 
 committee remain. They had recalled them before I came on to Wash- 
 ington. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. Did either of them say what induced them to recall the commit- 
 tee ?^A. I do not think they did. I simply said to them, and I think 
 they agreed with me in a measure, that in a time of excitement like 
 that, it would break almost any banls; to have it known outside that a 
 special committee had been sent to examine its affairs. It would be 
 magnified at once as denoting weakness. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Have you ever been directed since to make an examination of that 
 bank ?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you known anything of its transactions since which led you 
 to suppose that it should be examined ? — A. No, sir ; I know enough of 
 its transactions to know that its business is very limited. I was in the 
 bank every day, more or less, for a week after that affair, and when they 
 wanted to open brokers' accounts and to go on in the same way, I said: 
 " No, gentlemen, it is not safe." And 1 counseled the general declining of 
 all these accounts, and tried to make arrangements for transferring the 
 bank to a location where it would do a legitimate commercial business. 
 In that I have succeeded. There has been an entire transformation in 
 the board of direction, and they have secured rooms in a building up 
 
GOLD PANIC mVESTIGATION. 395 
 
 town — ^the New York Life Insurance building. They will move there on 
 the 1st of March, and the bank will be a commercial bank. It has not 
 done any brokerage business since the panic. I know that you could 
 not offer any inducement to the present direction of that bank to stay 
 there and do brokerage business. 
 
 Q. Do the national banks generally do a brokerage business? — A. 'No, 
 sir ; not generally. A few of them do. 
 
 Q. Did you have any knowledge of an arrangement between the presi- 
 dent or any other officer of that bank and any of the clique brokers during 
 that week, that the bank was to certify checks for them to an,unlimited 
 or to a very large amount? — A. No, sir; I have no such knowledge. 
 Indeed, I did not suppose that Mr. Dickinson could have said anything 
 of the kind. I had thought that I had satisfactory assurances from the 
 president of the bank that the law would be observed. 
 
 Q. Have you now any knowledge, with the affairs aU passed, that there 
 was any such arrangement as that? — A. No, sir; I have not. I know 
 that Mr. Dickinson claimed that he of his own accord notified these par- 
 ties that he could not certify their checks, but that finally he gave as a 
 reason that there were examiners at the bank. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any officer of the government of the United States 
 who was directly or indirectly interested in or connected with the gold 
 movement in New York in September last ? — A. I have never supposed, 
 from all the observation and inquiry I could make, that there was more than 
 one, and I do not know of my own knowledge that there was any. Of 
 course it was a matter of public comment that General Butterfleld, the 
 assistant treasurer, was involved. 
 
 Q. Is that the one to whom your supposition refers? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 By Mr. PACKER: 
 
 Q. State whether the Tenth National Bank did give certified checks 
 that day without having other checks certified to the same amount 
 deposited. — A. I could not say that from personal knowledge. If I had 
 spent the entire day with the bank I could answer the question. 
 
 Q. Did you make any examination subsequently for the purpose of 
 ascertaining? — A. So far as I was able to I did. It is impossible to 
 teU in a broker's bank, unless you are there right straight along through 
 the day, whether the bank certifies to checks beyond the amount de- 
 posited or not, for the reason that at 3 o'clock, for instance, you can only 
 ascertain the results of the entire day's transactions, and you are not able 
 to ascertain definitely whether at any particular hour in the day checks 
 have been certified beyond the amount deposited or not. This could be 
 done by making an examination every fifteen minutes during the day, 
 but no person would be very likely to make any over certifications that 
 day while the examiner was present. 
 
 Q. At the time you went to raise the hundred and odd thousand dol- 
 lars for the Tenth National Bank, upon whose certified check did you 
 raise that money? — A. There were various certified checks of parties 
 who had paid their loans. The bank had call loans, and the parties came 
 iu and paid them by certified checks on the different banks of the city. 
 I could not now give you the names. I was indignant at the position 
 which some of the banks assumed" on that day, and I state frankly to 
 the committee, that the enforcing the rule of the clearing-house made for 
 the ordinary transaction of business, in an exigency which involved the 
 failure of one of their number, I considered an outrage ; and I said that 
 if there was a national bank which certified a check for which they were 
 not ready to pay the greenbacks, and the fact came to my knowledge, I 
 
396 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 would send it to Washington for such action of the department as might 
 be considered proper. I believe that when a bank certifies checks it 
 should be able to pay in greenbacks, should they be demanded. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. Give the names of any banks in ISew York whose action at this 
 time was intended to break down or injure the national banks. — A. It 
 was a wide-spread feeling there. In the first place there are State 
 banks which are desirous of accomplishing such a purpose, and I regard 
 the whole action at Albany, in the facilities they furnish for starting new 
 State banks, as being intended for that purpose. 
 
 Q. I speak now of individuals or banks in connection with the gold 
 panic. — A. I could not give you the names of parties from personal 
 knowledge ; I only speak of the development of general facts. I could 
 refer, for instance, to the Gold Exchange Bank. 
 
 Q. Who were largely interested in that bank ? — A. Mr. Benedict, and 
 Lockwood & Co. Lockwood & Co. subsequently failed. They were sup- 
 posed to have been strengthened by the Gold Exchange Bank to the 
 extent of its ability. The failure of the Gold Exchange Bank was caused 
 by its favoritism to some of these parties, or others of their friends. 
 Their rule was not to pay out anything until all the transactions were 
 settled; but for the purpose of assisting their favorites 1 hey paid out 
 balances to particular parties. Then other parties failed, and the fail- 
 ure of the bank was the consequence. 
 
 Q. Do you know what representations were made to the Secretary of 
 the Treasury and Comptroller, which induced the appointment of these 
 parties to make an examination of the Tenth National Bank 1 — A. No, 
 sir ; I would give considerable to know that. I do not know Vho made 
 the application. I would like very well to have the committee know. I 
 have no feeling about it, but I think the effect would be of some value. 
 I do not think there would ever have been an opportunity afforded to 
 this "buU" party in gold if there had not been first a "bear" party who 
 had been selling gold short on the strength of the expected crops ; it is 
 so every year. Gold was unusually and rapidly depressed in price by 
 the merchants, bankers, and others, who sold short. In my judgment, 
 and in the judgment of the best men of New York City with whom I 
 have conversed, and whose opinions I would regard as most valuable, 
 the short interest was nearly sixty millions at the time this party came 
 in to take advantage of this opportunity. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. About what time did they begin to operate ? — A. About the 15th 
 or 20th of August. Finding the magnitude of the short interest, and 
 knowing that the banks held only ten or twelve millions, they said, "We 
 can easily buy that ; the government is not going to sell, and these fel- 
 lows cannot get their sixty or seventy millions of gold." That was the 
 only inducement for these parties to keep on buying. I want to say 
 further, that this movement was a fight between gofd gamblers. I think 
 it was six of one and half a dozen of the other ; that the parties who sold 
 short in anticipation of the cotton crop should have no more sympathy 
 than the other parties. I do not think it was possible for any adminis- 
 tration of the finances to prevent the result that followed, and it will 
 come again just as sure as the sun rises and sets. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any legislative remedy for it? — A. I think there 
 is a partial remedy that would prevent any very extended operations. 
 Gold is only wanted for the payment of duties and for shipment abroad. 
 If a merchant wanted to pay his duties on goods, I think he could go to 
 
GOLD - PANIC ■ INVESTIGATION. 397 
 
 the collector of the port or the proper authority and obtain a certificate 
 of the amount of duties, which could he taken to the assistant treasurer, 
 and the assistant treasurer authorized to furnish the am,ount of gold at 
 the market price for that day. I think the government could fix the 
 market price of gold for each day through the customs receipts, and 
 that this would prevent piracy upon the mercantile community. 
 
 Q. If they i^aid their customs duties in gold would they not be at the 
 mercy of the rate if the street fixed the market rate ? — ^A. 1 do not see 
 how the street could fix the market rate if there was no demand for the 
 purchase of gold. 
 
 Q. Could not they themselves combine to push down gold or push it 
 up? — ^A. Possibly, and yet you could not easily form a combination 
 among importers to that extent. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 Q. Would any such plan as that prevent short sales of gold ? — ^A, 1 
 do not think it would fully, and yet it would in a great measure, because 
 they sell their gold short upon a speculative idea. The greatest cause 
 of the evil, however, is perhaps in the system of clearances at the Gold 
 Exchange Bank. If legislation could require the actual delivery ,of gold, 
 and break up this system of exchanges or clearances, it would do much 
 to check the evil. I have tried aU I could through the associate banks 
 to prevent its reorganization. Mere boys in the gold-room are permitted 
 to transact business to very large amounts, actiag, of course, for others. 
 
 By Mr. Packee : 
 
 Q. What is it that produces the short sales of gold to which yon have 
 referred, and what interest do the importers themselves take in that 
 operation 1 — A. Many of the importers held large balances of gold during 
 all that stringency, and did not sell even at the enhanced price. The 
 banks could not sell, because they held it under deposit, and might at 
 any time be called upon to pay it out. X think the foreign bankers did 
 more to induce the rise in the price of gold than the importers. The 
 time was when the banks controlled the money movement. They do 
 not to-day. Foreign capital and outside capital are larger to-day than 
 the banking caxjital. 
 
 Q. Did the importers imite to put down the price of gold when they 
 desired to make heavy payments for importations ? — ^A. To some extent, 
 I think, they did. 
 
 Washington, D. C, February 2, 1870. 
 EtrssELL A. Hills sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chaikman : 
 
 Question. State your residence and occupation. — Answer. I reside in 
 Few York, and am a broker. 
 
 Q. Were you a broker in September last ? — ^A. Tes, sir. 
 
 Q. State to the committee whether you have any knowledge of a com- 
 bination foj'med in the city of New York, in September last, for the pur- 
 pose of advancing the price of gold? — ^A. I knew that there was such a 
 combination formed. 
 
 Q. How did yon know it ? — A. By receiving orders from Pisk and 
 Gould to buy gold. 
 
 Q. Did you receive^ orders from anybody else? — A. From Smith, 
 Gould, Martiii & Go. 
 
398 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q.' Did the mere fact of your receiving orders from them show you 
 that there was a combination ?— A. No ; but I knew it from my experi- 
 ence in business, and from my seeing them together in the office of Wil- 
 liam Heath & Co., the firm that I was in at the time. 
 
 Q. Did you receive any order from those parties for the purchase, sale, 
 or loan of gold during the panic week of September ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Prom whom did you receive the order ? — A. From Mr. Fisk. 
 
 Q. From any other person 1 — A. No ; from Mr. Fisk alone. 
 
 Q. Did you act in that matter for yomself, or for some others ? — A. I 
 acted for the firm of William Heath & Co. 
 
 Q. Did you receive any orders from Mr. Smith, of the firm of Smith, 
 Gould, Mairtin & Co. ? — A. Not during that week. I had received orders 
 from them previous to that week. 
 
 Q. State what the orders, which you received from Mr. Fisk during 
 those days, were. — A. I received an order on Thursday morning to buy 
 a million at 41. On Wednesday the orders came to me through Mr. 
 Heath, in the gold-room. They were to buy three millions at 37J. 
 I gave the orders to different brokers. The limit was subsequently 
 raised from 37^ to 40J. 
 
 Q. Eaised by whom ? — ^A. By Mr. Heath, coming from those parties 
 who were in our ofiice at that time. 
 
 Q. Did you execute those orders 1 — ^A. I bought some of the goldj not 
 all. I think I bought about seven millions. 
 
 Q. From whom ? — A. From one or two hundred different parties. 
 
 Q. In large or in small lots ? — A. In all sorts of lots — ^from ten thou- 
 sand to two hundred thousand. 
 
 Q. Were your orders limited as to the amount you were to buy ? — A. 
 Not at 40 J. My orders were "to hold the market" at 40 J. 
 
 Q. What do you understand by an order to hold the market? — A. Not 
 to let it go below 40J. 
 
 Q. What does that imply? — A. It is an unlimited order to buy, I pre- 
 sume. 
 
 Q. Why do people give an order of that sort ? — A. In order, as we 
 term it, "to biill the market" — to put up the price. 
 
 Q. What assurance had you that your principals could back you in 
 such an unUmited order as that ? Did they say anything about it ? — ^A. 
 No, sir : I presume they conti'olled a good deal of money. 
 
 Q. Did you hear Heath say anything about the resources, or about 
 banks that would stand by them ? — ^A. He spoke of the Tenth National 
 Bank. 
 
 Q. What did Heath say in regard to that ? — A. He told me that the 
 Tenth National Bank had agreed to certify to an unlimited extent that 
 day. That is the way I understood it. There was some question raised 
 as to margin, and he stated that to me. A short time afterward one 
 of the officers of the bank came into the office of William JEeath & Co. 
 and said that it was impossible for the bank to certify, as there were 
 three bank examiners in there to prevent it. I understood him to be 
 the president of the bank. I will not say positively that he was the 
 president, but I knew him to be an official of the bank. Mr. Fisk and 
 Mr. Gould were in the office at the time. 
 
 Q. What response was made by any of those parties to that remark ?— 
 A. I did not hear the conversation myself ■ It was told to me by Mr, 
 Heath. I saw the man come in. 
 
 Q. When Mr. Heath told you this, did he make any expression in ref- 
 erence to it, as though it had disconcerted their plans? — ^A. He seemed 
 rather embarrassed about it. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 399 
 
 Q. Did he tell you that the hank had agreed previously to certify to 
 au unlimited amount ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And that that news which the officers of the bank brought down 
 was a partial breaking up of the old arrangement ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any orders given by any of these parties to the 
 clique besides the orders given to you or to the firm of William Heath 
 & Oo. ? — A. Yes. I heard Mr. Fisk give an order to Albert Speyers. 
 
 Q. What was that order ? — A. I heard him teU him to go to the gold 
 room and raise the price of gold to 55. It was then 50. 
 
 Q. When was that ? — ^A. That was, I think, after IQ o'clock on Friday 
 morning. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Speyers executed that order ? — A. He 
 left the office to do it, and when I went over to the gold-room the price 
 was 55. 
 
 Q. Do you know any other brokers who were buyers of gold for any 
 of those parties commonly known as the clique party ? — A. E. JK. Wil- 
 lard was a prominent buyer for them. In fact, he managed a good deal 
 of their purchases. Quinen and Enos and Mr. Belden were also buyers 
 for them. 
 
 Q. What reason have you to believe that these parties whom you have 
 mentioned were clique brokers ? — A. Because it was the general im- 
 pression. I knew them to be large lenders of gold. 
 
 Q. Did you ever hear anj^ of these men say that they were carrying 
 gold or doing business for any of the clique ? — A. Yes, sir. I was told 
 by Mr. Heath that Mr. Carver was carrying about twelve millions of 
 gold for them. 
 
 Q. Did you hear Mr. Carver himself say anything about it ? — A. IfTo, 
 sir. I am not personally acquainted with him. 
 
 Q. Who was .present besides yourself and Speyers and Fisk, in the 
 office of Heath & Co., when Fisk gave the orders to Speyers? — A. 
 Kobody. I came over to tell Mr. Fisk the state of the market. I told 
 him that the market was strong at 50 bid. Speyers then came in and 
 Fisk gave Speyers an order to go out and raise the market to 55, not 
 saying how much to buy. 
 
 Q. Do you understand that to be an order to buy to an unlimited 
 amount ? — A. To buy all gold offered under 55. 
 
 Q. Was there any other conversation between Speyers and Fisk 1 — 
 A. I did not hear any other. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Belden on the 23d or 24th 
 in reference to the movement in gold ? — A. No, sir. On the 22d when 
 I was buying this gold Mr. Belden came up and asked me how much 
 gold I had bought. I told him I could not teU hiin, as I had not figured 
 it up. 
 
 Q. Did you see Mr. Belden in conversation with Fisk or Gould during 
 any of these days ? — A. Yes, sir : on the morning of Friday. 
 
 Q. Did you have any difficulty in clearing 5l the gold which you 
 bought and sold and loaned 1 — A. No, sir. I loaned all that gold. 
 
 Q. Did you clear it through the clearing-house 1 — A. Yes,, sir. 
 
 Q. Were your transactions of Friday all cleared ? — ^A. No ; they were 
 settled ex-clearing-house. 
 
 Q. What does that expression mean ? — ^A. The Gold Exchange Bank 
 could not clear, and the contracts were settled between members out- 
 side privately. They were aU settled on the basis of 35. That was a 
 compromise. 
 
 Q. By whose order did you make these compromises? — ^A. Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Co. 
 
400 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Had you some of your orders for settlement from Fisk ?— A. No ; 
 none from Fisk ; they were from Mr. Smith. 
 
 Q,. Did Mr. Smith settle Fisk's orders too ?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge that any offlcer of the United States 
 government was iuterested inx)r concerned in the gold movement of 
 September last?— A. No, sir: I have not any knowledge of it. 
 
 Q. At what time on Friday did gold break down ?— A. About 12 
 o'clock, I think. 
 
 Q. What is your understanding of the cause of that breakdown ?— A. 
 The first thiag that broke gold was very heavy sales by Mr. James 
 Brown. He sold about seven millions at 60 to Speyers. It struck the 
 market at the time that these sales were extraordinary, and that they 
 must be for some important account. 
 
 Q. How long after that sale did the news appear on the street that 
 the Treasury was going to sell ? — A. A very short time after. At the 
 time I heard it, it was current in the gold-room. 
 
 Q. Had you any intimation from any source that the Treasury was 
 going to sell before the formal news was declared in the street ? — ^A, 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know anybody who did have such news previous to the 
 sales of Mr. Brown ? — A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Do you believe that anybody in New York on the street had that 
 news previous to the date of the official announcement 1 — ^A. I cannot 
 say that I do. 
 
 By Mr, PACKER : 
 Q. Do you know any person in the Gold Exchange who had the 
 news 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. You had no litigation about that matter ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. What were you doing on Friday — ^buying or selling ? — A. I only 
 bought $100,000 of gold on Friday for Mr. Fisk at 45. We were left 
 with that gold on hand. We sold no gold on Friday — we loaned gold. 
 
 Q. Whose gold?— A. Smith, Gould & Martin's, and Mr. Fisk's. 
 
 Q. How much did you loan ? — A, About ten miUions. 
 
 By Mr. BURCHARD : 
 
 Q. Then your orders were aU from Fisk 1 — A. No ; from Fisk, and 
 from Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. I purchased for them on Wednesday. 
 
 Q. Did you purchase any on Thursday ^ — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. And on Friday you loaned? — A. On Friday we bought $100,000 
 for Fisk at 45. 
 
 Q. Did you settle that on Fisk's order, or the order of Smith, Gould, 
 Martin & Co. ? — A. Mr. Smith ordered the settlement of all of them. 
 
 Q. And you made the settlements ? — A. I did. 
 
 By Mr. Smith: 
 Q. At what rate did you loan on Friday ? — A. All the way from one 
 per cent, to what we call "flat;" neither the borrower nor the lender 
 receiving any premium. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. What is the object of lending gold in that way ?— A. The demand 
 for it occasions it. Sometimes gold is worth a premium for borrowing it. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 401 
 
 By Mr. Bxjechaed : 
 Q. On that order to hold the market, why did you only get $100,000 
 for Fisk ? — ^A. That order to hold the market was on Wednesday, at 40J. 
 This purchase of $100,000, at 45, was on Friday. 
 
 By the Chaiemaj;^ : 
 Q, Were you ordered by Fisk to purchase just $100,000 ? — ^A. Yes. 
 He told me to go into the market, and put the market up to 145 by 
 bidding for $100,000. This was a few minutes after 9, o'clock, just at the 
 opening. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Do you recoUect at what hour on Friday it was distinctly under- 
 stood in the Gold Board, or among business men in Wall street, that the 
 government was going to sell gold ? — A. I think about 12 o'clock on 
 Friday. 
 
 Q. How was that understood? — ^A. By general rumor through the 
 crowd. 
 
 Q. That, I suppose, was not understood at the time Mr. Brown was 
 selHng seven millions ? — ^A. No, sir, not until afterward. The news of 
 the government sale came very soon after that sale of Mr. Brown — a 
 very short time afterward, about 12 o'clock. 
 
 Q. How low did gold. go on that day? — ^A. It fell to 32. 
 
 Q. I suppose it fell almost immediately ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Washington, February 3, 1870. 
 
 Chaelbs E. Qxjincby sworn and examined. 
 To the Chaieman : 
 
 I reside in Brooklyn, and am a clerk for William Heath & Co., stock- 
 brokers, New York City. I was serving in that capacity during the 
 month of September last. My special duties were having the manage- 
 ment of the in-door business of the offtce. I oversee the general man- 
 agement of the office. 
 
 Q. And the books among other things 1 — ^A, Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with the business operations of the firm during 
 the month of September last ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. What business did the firm transact during the days known as the 
 days of panic during September last ? — A. Buying and selling stocks and 
 gold, more particularly gold during that week. 
 
 Q. For whom did they buy gold? — ^A. They bought gold for Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Co., piincipally, and for James Fisk, jr., and E. K. 
 Willard. I remember that one lot of gold was bought for Mr. Willard. 
 We have regular out-of-town customers and city customers, but their 
 business was small. 
 
 Q. What was the total amount of gold purchased or sold or loaned 
 by your firm during those days ?-.-A. From the 7th September to the 
 24th September, inclusive, we bought and borrowed and received for 
 ^account of the several parties I have mentioned $14,015,000 gold, the 
 currency price of which would be, without charges, $19,264,168. 
 
 Q. Did you sell for those parties at that time ? — A. We sold gold for 
 Jay Gould. On his personal account, we sold $3,845,000 from Septem- 
 ber 11 to the 18th inclusive. We sold and delivered, and settled for 
 Smith, Gould, M&,rtin & Co., the balance of the gold. 
 
 H. Eep. 31 26 
 
402 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. What was the highest rate that you paid for gold that you pur- 
 chased for any of those parties ? — A. Forty-four and one-eighth. 
 
 Q. Were all those transactions to which you have referred settled in 
 the ordinary way by the clearing department ?— A. All our gold pur- 
 chases were received in that wa^, and our deliveries were made through 
 the clearing-house. To facilitate the purchase we employed other brokers 
 to execute the order for us which we received from Smith, Gould, Mar- 
 tin & Co., and from Fisk, and the orders to sell gold tbat we received from 
 Gould. 
 
 Q. And were all the settlements through these brokers made in the 
 ordinary way 1 — A. All the settlements on the purchases, and so far as 
 the sales were concerned. We settled a large amount of gold at the 
 rate of 35. 
 
 Q. How do you use the word " settled P In the sense of compro- 
 mise f — ^A. Yes, sir. We sold back to the parties. They bought the 
 gold from us in settlement of their differences at the rate of 35, which 
 was the rate established by Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. for settlements. 
 
 Q. What was the rate at which the gold was bought originally ? — ^A. 
 The gold was bougbt at lower figures and was made up to higher fig- 
 ures ; the parties gave their checks for the differences, 
 
 Q. What amount did you settle in that way ? — A. Between nine and 
 ten millions. I think the amount was about $9,800,000. 
 
 Q. What would have been the difference, as related to loss and giain - 
 to your firm in settling, if it had settled in the regular way on an exact 
 basis of the transactions ? — A. The parties to whom we had gold loaned , 
 were given the opportunity of purchasing the gold back of us at that 
 rate, or of waiting until the Gold Exchange Bank cleared. When it ' 
 cleared, all the gold that was left was cleared by Smith, Gould, Martin 
 & Co., or by us on their account. 
 
 Q. Suppose the transactions could have been cleared directly without 
 any break or difi&culty, what would have been the difference in the loss 
 and gain between the two modes of settlement ? — A. It is impossible to 
 tell, because gold varied between 30 and 35, and many of our settle- 
 ments were made when gold was 32. That would make three per cent, 
 on the gold, and that on the whole amount of ten millions would have 
 been $300,000. 
 
 Q. Bj' whose orders were those compromise settlements made 1 — A. 
 Smith, Gould, Martin & Co.'s, 
 
 Q. Were they made in your ofiSce ? — ^A. Yes, sir. • 
 
 Q. How many people, do you think, came in there to settle in that 
 way ? — A. 1 could tell you definitely if I could see our list. We have a 
 list of all the parties who accepted our settlements. I should say from 
 twenty-five to thirty. 
 
 Q. Who were those people in the main ? — ^A. There were a number of 
 •German bankers and of English, bankers, such as Matthew Morgan & 
 Son, Kamlah, Sauer & Co., Hallgarten & Co., and many others. 
 
 Q. Did anybody else besides Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. give orders 
 for settlements of that kind 1 — ^A. No, sir ; I think the orders came en- 
 tirely from them. 
 
 Q. And the gold wMch you did thus settle was purchased for Fisk 
 and Willard and Gould ?— A. Yes. There was but one item of $500,000 
 bought for Willard, and that was at 37^. 
 
 Q. How was it that Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. gave orders for set- 
 tling Fisk's and Willard's and Gould's account in that way ? Did you 
 accept an order from them as good for all the other parties ? — ^A. Yes, 
 sir: we concluded that it was one and the same thing. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 403 
 
 Q. What led you to think that ? — A. I cannot say, except that the 
 orders appeared to be given in such, a way as to lead us to believe tliat 
 they were one and the same thing. 
 
 Q. You understood really that they were operating as one family ? — 
 A. Yes, sir ; so far as the entire movement was concerned. 
 
 Q. Did they ever do anything or say anything that contradicted that 
 notion ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did they ratify all the settlements that you made ? — A. They rati- 
 fied them in this way : That Smith, Gould, Martin & Go. accepted and 
 gave us the terms on which to settle with parties. That was a ratifica- 
 tion or settlement of the entire account. 
 
 Q. Did you transact business on these days for William Belden & 
 Co. ?— A. S"o, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you transact any for Mr. Woodward? — A. My impression is 
 that we did to the extent of two millions. But that gold was taken 
 from us by Marvin & Co. before the 24th. 
 
 Q. Do you know on what day it was taken ? — A. It was between the 
 22d and the 24th ; I think the 22d or 23d. 
 
 Q. Did you have transactions during those days with Albert Speyers ? — 
 A. We received from Albert Speyers $740,000 gold by order of Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Co. We had a large amount of money over, and they 
 asked how much gold we could carry for them. We consented to re- 
 ceive $740,000 at 40 from Albert Speyers, which we did on the 23d. 
 
 Q. Was that gold which he had purchased on the order of Smith ? — 
 A. I cannot tell that. We simply had an order to receive it from Albert 
 Speyers at that rate, which we did. IIow it was purchased I cannot 
 say. 
 
 Q. Was that settled for in the usual way ? — ^A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Did you see Albert Speyers during any of those days in your back 
 office ? — A. I saw Albert Speyers on the day we received the gold, for 
 I negotiated with him the receiving of the gold. That was on the 23d. 
 It was a verbal transaction between us, and my impression is that we 
 cleared it through the clearing-house and paid at the clearing-house for it. 
 
 Q. Which one of the firm of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. gave you the 
 order ? — A. Mr. Smith. 
 
 Q. Did you see Mr. Speyers during the 24th ? — A. Yes ; he came into 
 our office several times. 
 
 Q. Who was present when he was there ? — A. I can only answer that 
 on impressions, because I was transacting business in another office, 
 and they occupied that dayour private office without asking the privilege 
 of doing so. We had two doorways, and they came in and occupied 
 the private office. 
 
 Q. When you say "they," what persons do you mean? — A. Mr. Fisk 
 and Mr. Goidd ; and my impression is that Mr. Belden was there. 
 
 Q. Did you hear any conversation on that day between any of tliese 
 gentlemen and Mr. Speyers ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What was Mr. Belden doing there, as you understood ? — A. I can- 
 not tell. I never did know Mr. Belden's relations in the transaction. I 
 presume he was a broker for the pool, the same as we, and that he came 
 there perhaps to get orders to buy or to sell, or to make business. 
 
 Q. What persons composed the pool, as you understand it 1 — A. It is 
 impossible for me to say. I do not know who did compose the pool, 
 but, inferring from the orders given, I should say the firm of Smith, 
 Gould, Martin & Co., and Fisk and Gould. 
 
 Q. Do you recoUect the time when Fisk and Gould and Belden left 
 
404 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 the office that day to go out of Wall street?— A, Yes. I think Mr. Fisk 
 and Mr. Gould left about half-past one. 
 
 Q. Was there any appearance of danger about the office about that 
 time; anything that threatened their personal safety, as far as you 
 know ?— A. 'No, sir, I do not know of any. They left by the private en- 
 trance door. 
 
 Q. At what time did gold break down that day ?— Between 11 and 12 
 that day. 
 
 Q. Did it break down before the news of the Treasury order to sell 
 gold came ? — A. I think it was the reception of that news that broke it. 
 
 Q. Did you hear that news before the break ! — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any messages having been sent that day from 
 any person in your back office to the sub-treasurer ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any message having been received'? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any messengers having come or gone between the 
 two places ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any officer of the United States having been in- 
 terested or concerned in this movement in gold ? — A. No, sir. We acted 
 entirely as brokers in the transaction, and we had full reliance on the 
 ability of Pisk and Gould to protect us in any event. 
 
 To Mr. BuECHAED : 
 We had a stock indicator in the front office in the front of the build- 
 ing, and it also indicated the fluctuation of gold. 
 
 By Mr. Paokee : 
 
 Q. What amount of J. Fisk's purchases of gold did your firm sell 1— 
 A. All of it ; $3,025,000. 
 
 Q. Up to what time was that 1 — ^A. Up to the 23d of September. 
 
 Q. Did you make settlements of Fisk's purchases by direction of Mr. 
 Smith ? — A. Yes, sir. I cannot tell how it came about, but I know that 
 Mr. Smith agreed to settle and did settle. He must have done so, I 
 presume, by some arrangement of Mr. Fisk. With parties who did not 
 accept the settlement at 35 they agreed to settle the first day that the 
 clearing-house would be opened, and there, was $225,000 left to that 
 time. It was cleared through the clearing-house at the price of gold 
 that day. 
 
 Washington, D. G., February 3, 1870. 
 
 Jacob D. Veemilte sworn and examined. 
 By the Chaieman : 
 
 Question. State your residence and occupation? — Answer. I reside 
 in New York City ; am a banker ; am president of the Merchants' Na- 
 tional Bank ; am chairman of the clearing-house committee, the execu- 
 tive committee of the clearing-house. 
 
 Q. Please state whether you are familiar with the general history of 
 the so-called gold panic of September last ? — A. I am acquainted with 
 it so far as connected with the clearing-house. 
 
 Q. State what the effect was upon the operations of the clearing- 
 house ?— A. On the morning of Saturday, the 25th of September, the 
 Gold Exchange Bank was debited to the clearing-house to the amount of 
 $1,886,000. This amount they paid us in gold. They could not pay it in 
 currency. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 405 
 
 Q. What gold was that ? — A. I suppose it was gold which they had 
 received the day before from depositors who had sold gold ; they were 
 to receive currency, taut the operations of the Gold Exchange Bank that 
 day were so confused that they could not make the clearing. They un- 
 dertook to draw a line, and say such a man had fulfilled his contract 
 and such a man had not, and the consequence was they did not receive 
 the currency in payment for the gold which was to be delivered to the 
 purchasers. For this gold they gave their checks to the various banks 
 without having the currency on hand. The consequence was, they had 
 run in debt to the associated banks to the amount of one million eight 
 hundred and eighty-six thousand dollars. They paid us the gold during 
 Saturday. In this connection I would say that it is customary in the 
 New York clearing-house for the debtor banks to pay before 1 o'clock, 
 and by two o'clock we pay the creditor banks. But here was a bulk of 
 gold which we could not pay out to the other banks ; we had given our 
 receipt to the Gold Exchange Bank that we had this gold and would re- 
 turn it. To obtain currency in order to make settlement, I had to bor- 
 row it at the different banks. So 1 went out and used the gold in this 
 way : I let the bank of Commerce have $500,000, the bank of America 
 $500,000, our own bank, the Merchants' IJfational $300,000, and other 
 banks smaller amounts, until the whole $1,886,000 had been taken. 
 
 Q. Was that gold actually delivered to these taanks ? — A. Oh, yes ; 
 I delivered it myself. 
 
 Q. I thought you were responsible for its safe return! — A. That 
 was the reason we placed it in these banks, where we knew we could get 
 it. I made arrangements with these taanks to carry it and return it when 
 we were called upon for it. But for that we would have taeen, or might 
 have taeen, thrown into as had a fix as the Gold Exchange Bank was. 
 
 Q. Had the Gold Exchange Bank no currency to give you ? — A. If 
 they had they would not give it. They may have thought that if they 
 could compel us to carry the gold for them until they could make 
 arrangements with their dealers, it would tae so much help to them. 
 That, however, was only a portion of the gold we received. On the 27th 
 of Septemtaer, the Monday after the panic, the Gold Exchange Bank came 
 in creditor at our clearing-house to the extent of $233,000. We used 
 that credit in taking up that much of the gold which we had before 
 loaned out. That settled so much, reducing the total amount to 
 $1,663,000, the balance of the first day's gold received from the Gold Ex- 
 change Bank. September 28, Tuesday, the Gold Exchange Bank came in 
 indebted to the clearing-house $2,443,000. We discovered this taefbre 
 we got through with our clearing, and immediately gave orders to the 
 manager to stop, and not deliver any more exchange to any taank. I 
 went down to the Gold Exchange Bank and insisted upon a settlement, 
 and after some parley they gave me what turned out to amount to ataout 
 $2,569,000 ; of that there was a round mUlion in gold, the taalance was 
 in demand loans, the value of which I did not know until I got them to 
 the bank. I took the gold and box of securities and was glad to get off 
 with them safely. The bank was not yet in the hands of the receiver. 
 We collected the loans as fast as we could, until eventually we realized 
 $2,600,000 out of them and the gold. The first day's gold they took up 
 when Mr. Jordan was appoinlted receiver ; he was the second receiver. 
 In the course of two days they took up about $1,853,000. I went around 
 to the different banks where I had placed the gold, gave them the green- 
 backs which the banks had given me, and got back the gold which I had 
 loaned them. In regard to the $2,443,000 indebtedness to the Gold Ex- 
 change Bank, the million of gold I had obtained from them I used 
 
406 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 precisely as I did tbe flrst'$l,800,000. I gave it to certain banks to carry, 
 and thus paid so much of the debts of the creditor banks of the Gold 
 Exchange Bank, and the balance I reclaimed on those banks which had 
 created this credit. I drew drafts on the banks, on each for its relative 
 proportion -which its debt bore to this $1,443,000, and that is the way we 
 settled that day. We finally completed the settlement by paying the 
 banks which we reclaimed on in installments. On the 30th of Septem- 
 ber we paid 33 per cent. ; on the 1st of October 8 per cent. ; on the 4th 
 of October 27 per cent. ; on the 7th of October 4 per cent. ; on the lltli 
 of October 20 per cent. ; on the 15th of October 8 per cent., which com- 
 pleted the settlement. , 
 
 Q. Does your clearing-house still continue to do business for the 
 Gold Exchange Bank? — ^A. Ifo, sir. They are nominally members of 
 the clearing-house. We have never stricken them off; but we have 
 given orders, if they present themselves, that they shall not be received 
 until we can call the committee together, when we probably should 
 throw them out altogether. I understand that they do not now pretend 
 to do a banking business at aU ; only a clearing-house business. They 
 keep their account with the Metropolitan National Bank, having made 
 such arrangement that their depositors can have the responsibility of 
 the Metropolitan Bank. 
 
 Q. What is the average daily transactions of the N'ew York clearing- 
 house? — A. Prom eighty to one hundred millions of dollars. 
 
 Q. Was it not larger than usual during those days of the panic? — 
 A. My impression is that on that heavy day the amount was one hun- 
 dred and forty-one millions ; not quite double the usual amount. We 
 scarcely ever went below eighty millions. 
 
 Q. What is the usual percentage of balances, compared with the total 
 amount of clearances? — A. It rarely exceeds three million dollars to be 
 actually paid over on settlement. 
 
 Q. K"ot quite four per cent.? — A. ^o, sir. 
 
 Q. Was the percentage greater, or less, than usual, during those days 
 of the panic ? — A. I cannot answer that to a certainty. My impression 
 is that it was somewhat greater. 
 
 Q. State whether you regard the Gold Exchange Bank as a necessary 
 instrument of trade ? — A. I regard it as an unmitigated evil. My rea- 
 son is this : a man not worth a hundred dollars may go and buy gold to 
 the extent of one or two hundred thousand dollars. If gold goes up he 
 is all right; if it goes down even one-half of one per cent., he cannot 
 afford to pay the loss. I think it fosters a spirit of reckless speculation 
 among irresponsible parties. 
 
 Q. Is your bank clearing-house an incorporated body? — A. No, sir; 
 it is a voluntary association. 
 
 Q. Can its transactions be enforced in a court of law ? — A. We have 
 never had that question tested. Perhaps you will understand our mode 
 of doing business better when I teU you that we do not become respon- 
 sible as a clearing-house for anything except merely for the moving of 
 the balances. If currency is paid to us we pay it over to the party to 
 whom it is due ; if it is not paid to us, we are not liable. The banks 
 creating this liability, the amount of which should be paid us, are the 
 losers. 
 
 Q. Is the clearing-house a bank organization, like the other banks of 
 New York — a national bank? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Then no such corporation exists in law as the New York clearing- 
 house?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. It never sued anybody? — A. No, sir. 
 
. GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 407 
 
 Q. And was never sued ? — A. No, sir. We are not in a position to 
 test that question at all. In case of any trouble, such legal remedies 
 must apply, not to us, but to the banks that create the trouble ; we 
 merely operate a machine. Were we to pass exchange, should any 
 bank exchange be ten thousand dollars short, for instance, the bank 
 would not come to the clearing-house, but directly to the bank in error. 
 
 Q. Suppose a bank should do to an individual what the Gold Ex- 
 change Bank did to the clearing-house, rendering it impossible to make 
 a clearance, what relief would the individual have had? — A. There is a 
 great difference between that case and ours. We exchange entirely as 
 between banks ; that case refers to individuals ; the cases are in no way 
 alike. In the panic of 1857 we had precisely that condition of affairs; 
 a dozen banks, perhaps, were unable to respond; but they arranged the 
 matter by paying over to the committee securities, as this Gold Ex- 
 change Bank did to us; and the committee used enough of them to pay 
 the banks who were creditors of the banks which were in debt. 
 
 Q. Did you have any difdculty in making clearances with any na- 
 tional bank? — A. We had a difilculty with the Tenth National Bank. 
 
 Q. Please state what it was. — A. The trouble was of short duration. 
 On the morning of September 27, the Tenth National was in debt to 
 the clearing-house $723,900, which was settled without any reclamation. 
 
 Q. What do yOu mean by reclamation? — A. When a bank does not 
 respond to the banks to which it is indebted, the banks which created 
 this debt are held responsible, and we turn around and draw on them for 
 the amount, so far as they have incurred the debt, so as to enable us to 
 settle. In the case of the Tenth National Bank, as I said, we settled 
 without having reclamation. 
 
 Q. How was the difficulty settled ? — A. At lOJ o'clock, before the 
 exchanges were delivered to the bank, I went down there and stated to 
 them that their debt was $723,000, and that we would not deliver their 
 exchanges until they gave us something to cover that ; they paid me 
 $400,000 in what is called three per cent, clearing-house certificates, 
 which they were holding as reserves ; they gave me call loans enough 
 to cover the difference between four hundred thousand and seven hun- 
 dred and twenty- three thousand dollars, and about twenty-flve to thirty 
 thousand dollars in excess. I sent word immediately to the parties, and 
 they paid me, I think, about one hundred and thirty thousand dollars. 
 
 By Mr. Cobukn : 
 Q. Were any of those call loans against James Fisk, jr., or Jay 
 Gould, or any of the parties connected with the gold clique that got up 
 this panic ? — A. I do not know who were connected with that clique, 
 any further than by general suppositions and street rumors. 
 
 By the Ohaieman : 
 
 Q. Were they against banks or brokers? — A. My impression is, 
 though I may be wrong, that they were against brokers, mostly. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect the names of any of them ? — A. No, sir. I was 
 about to add, that the regular hour for paying in at the clearing-house 
 was Jialf-past one; at twenty minutes past two the Tenth National yet 
 owed one hundred and ninety-three thousand dollars ; but by three 
 o'clock the whole amount was made up, and that ended the whole thing. 
 
 Q. State whether any offlcer of the government rendered you any 
 assistance. — A. My understanding was that Mr. Callender was the 
 means of raising this deficiency of $150,000. 
 
 Q. What was the matter with the Tenth National Bank that day? — 
 
408 GOLD PANIC INVESyiGATION. 
 
 A. They had been certifying pretty largely the day before ; then a com- 
 mittee from Washington came on to examine into the condition of its 
 affairs, and the public got mnd of it, and that created a good deal of 
 excitement, and many demands were made over their counter, and many 
 banks became uneasy and refused to recognize their certified checlss, 
 which made it necessary for the Tenth National to pay out a great deal 
 of cash. 
 
 Q. Did the Tenth National violate any law in the course of those 
 traiisactions 1 — A. That I cannot answer. 
 
 Q. Did they violate any ordinary banking custom ? — ^A. I am not able 
 to answer that either. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether they over-certifled? — A. I cannot say. 
 
 Q. State whether or not you consider the present custom of certifying 
 the checks of other banks is an unsafe one? — A. I think if it were con- 
 fined to the strict letter of the law there would be no danger. 
 
 Q. Do you think the letter of the law is frequently violated in the 
 present method of banking ? — A. I can only guess as to that. 
 
 Q. What would be the effect upon business of forbidding the certifi- 
 cation of checks except upon the actual deposit of money ? — ^A. It would 
 interfere very much with the transaction of business. 
 
 Q. I mean the checks of other banks ; suppose that every national 
 bank was forbidden the certification of its checks on the deposit of the 
 checks of other banks, and the certification of checks confined to the 
 actual deposits of currency ? — A. I do not believe it would be possible 
 to carry on our business. , For instance, our clearing-house shows daily 
 from eighty to one hundred millions of dollars in clearances. A very 
 large part of that arises from the operations of the government, the sale 
 of bonds, &c. Without the use of certified checks it would be impossi- 
 ble to transact this business; the currency is not there; that, and the 
 gold united, would not carry on a single day's operations. We have 
 only thirty millions of gold, and between thirty and thirty-five miUions 
 of legal tenders, which are the only things that can be used ; national 
 bank notes are not used in the settlement of balances at the clearing- 
 house. 
 
 Q. Do you regard it as possible to confine the certification of checks 
 to a safe and legitimate business ? — A. I should think it might be ; it 
 always has been until within the last six or seven years. 
 
 By Mr. OOBURN : 
 
 Q. By what means could the certification of checks be confined to a 
 proper and legitimate business ? What measures could you recommend 
 to insure that result ? — A. The present law, it seems to me, would be 
 sufficient, if it were but properly and rigidly enforced, and banks 
 allowed to certify only on certified checks of other banks, or in case the 
 party wanting to draw shall deposit government bonds, or other ample 
 security. It is not to be supposed that many of the banks would loan 
 money which they would be unable to settle for at the clearing-house. 
 As to abolishing the use of certified checks, I do not think that would 
 be found at all practicable ; I think any law compelling it would cramp 
 the operations of trade so severely that it would have to be repealed. 
 
 Q. Suppose that one bank certifies a check when it has no deposits ; 
 this certified check is taken to another bank, and there made a deposit, 
 and another check obtained upon it, and this process is repeated indefi- 
 nitely ; is it not possible for a large number of fraudulent certificates to 
 creep into the business of all the banks, and many of them be perfectly 
 innocent 1 — A. Tour supposition is that the bank certifies in direct con- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 409 
 
 travention of the law ; that might possibly occur, to be sure, but it 
 would be against the bank's own immediate interests. 
 
 Q. But if one bank should do so, would another bank have any means 
 of knowing it? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. In other words, banks have not, from day to day, any check 
 against the fraudulent certiiications of other banks around them ? — A. 
 i^o. We cannot know the truth of what a bank certifies j but we can 
 judge somewhat from next morning's clearance. 
 
 Q. A bank might certify a man's check for $5,000 when he had not 
 the money in the bank, nor any security ; and if the man failed to pay 
 it, the bank might; in such a case would there be any way of knowing 
 whether that bank certified to the truth or not? — A. Certainly not. 
 Such cases have occurred on a smaller scale. 
 
 Q. Suppose a man says to a bank, "just put me down as having half 
 a million of dollars, and certify a check for me," when he has no money 
 in the bank to back that check, and the bank should certify, would you 
 deem that a legitimate and proper transaction ? — A. If the party in that 
 case should deposit security, and the bank should certify it, I should say 
 that was a legitimate transaction. But if the bank should do it merely 
 to evade the law, without a deposit or security, not intending to be re- 
 sponsible, I should say it was entirely wrong. 
 
 By Mr. Cobuen : 
 
 Q. What is the character of the bulk of these transactions when they 
 run up to ninety or one himdred millions ; is it all real business, or 
 mainly speculative transactions ? — A. My impression is that a large pro- 
 portion of it consists of speculative transactions. 
 
 Q. Does or does not this practice of certifying checks facilitate and 
 encourage speculative transactions ? — A. I think it cannot be so consid- 
 ered. If a party is speculating to the extent of half a million or a mil- 
 lion dollars a day he cannot get his check certified without giving full 
 value for that certification ; of course there are cases where wild, loose 
 speculation is done that I know nothing about. 
 
 " Q. State whether you regard the extraordinary rise in gold last Sep- 
 tember as natural or artificial. — A. Oh, artificial. 
 
 Q. What do you think would have been the price of gold in September 
 but for that artificial interference ? — A. Not far from from 25 per cent., 
 I should think; the general, natural tendency was downward. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any considerable losses having been suffered in 
 consequence of the gold panic? — A. I do not know personally. I under- 
 stand, of course, that losses were suffered. 
 
 Q. State in what way the gold panic was detrimental to business. — 
 A. In mercantile transactions it is quite customary for the merchant 
 who buys his goods for gold to borrow gold to pay his obligations, or, 
 rather, to use the gold, and when his obligation falls due he buys that 
 gold and returns it. A derangement in the currency like that of Sep- 
 tember last necessarily had its effect; as gold went up merchants 
 became frightened ; they were notified by the parties who had loaned 
 them gold that their margins had disappeared, and were .called upon to 
 return the gold or put up more margin ; the consequence was many of 
 them had to buy at very high rates. 
 
 By Mr. Smith: 
 Q. What reason have you for thinking that but for this unnatural 
 interference gold would have been about 25 per cent, in September? — 
 A. I cannot give the origin of my impressions. I have a general idea 
 that the premium would have been not far from that figure. 
 
410 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. It has been a matter of curiosity to me what it is that fixes and 
 determines the price of gold; why and how gold should he worth so 
 much now and so much at another time.— A. That matter i:* governed 
 principally by the wants of trade ; at certain seasons of the year gold 
 ATill command higher prices than at others, because there is more 
 demand for it. If there is a short crop of cotton, or of wheat, you will 
 readily see that it will enhance the price of exchange, and gold will 
 advance; it will requii-e the shipping of gold in place of these to cover 
 our foreign exchange. 
 
 Q. You have stated it as your opinion that the Gold Exchange clear- 
 ing-house is an unmitigated evil ; that it promotes speculation ; state 
 whether the bank clearing-house is open to the same objection. — ^A. 
 There is no speculation connected with that operation ; it is merely a 
 place to balance accounts ; no money transactions except the settlement 
 of the day's business. In former days each bank had to go round with 
 a pouch and exchange and settle directly with each other bank with 
 which it did business. The bank clearing-house consolidates this whole 
 matter. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of any oflcer of the United States gov- 
 ernment being concerned or interested, directly or indirectly, in the gold 
 operations of September last ? — A. I have not. 
 
 Washington, February 3, 1870. 
 
 H. E. HuLBUED sworn and examined. 
 By the Chaieman: 
 
 Question. State your oflcial position. — Answer. I am Comptroller of 
 the Currency. 
 
 Q. Were you conversant with the affairs of the Tenth National Bank, 
 Kew York, during the month of September last ? — A. Not particularly 
 during that month. 
 
 Q. Had you been previously ? — ^A. For a year or more prior to that I 
 had been watching the course of that bank. 
 
 Q. Please state the condition of that bank at the last regular exam- 
 ination prior to September 24, of last j'ear. — A. To do that I should 
 have to refer to the examiner's report. This bank was considered 
 peculiarly a brokers' bank, and was managed, to' a great extent, in such 
 a manner as to facilitate their operations, particularly in the matter of 
 certification. This examination was made after the act was passed pro- 
 hibiting certification except upon actual credits. This bank would 
 arrange with its brokers that they should deposit therein early in the 
 day checks on some other bank. These checks were not to be presented 
 for certification, but were to answer as deposits until 3 o'clock, when 
 they were to be taken up, the account having been made up by this 
 amount over the amount certified. The examiner mentions several 
 cases illustrating the operation of this manner of doing business. For 
 instance, he says : " On Thursday last," that is, the 17th of April, 1869, 
 " Mr. Josephus's account was not made good, and just before 3 o'clock 
 these checks were presented at the Continental ; there being no funds, 
 the Tenth National still hold them, pending a settlement. He proposes 
 to pay $8,000 cash, the balance his own notes, $1,000 payable each 
 month ; his facilities for payment, of course, depending upon his success 
 in business." The examiner continues : 
 
 Finding how the plan had operated in this case, I proposed to test it a little farther, 
 if still continued, and accordingly took (among others) from the casli, of the receiving 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 411 
 
 teller, at 11 o'clock, the following checks for which credits had been made to the parties 
 drawing the checks on other banks, and certiiicateB to large amounts already made : 
 
 Hoyt & Gardner, on Bank of Commonwealth $100,000 
 
 Quman &Enos, on Shoe and Leather Bank 100,000 
 
 W. H. Grauben, on Mechanics' Banking Association 100, 000 
 
 Jesse W. Benedict, on American Exchange Bank 80.000 
 
 And others, amounting to $1,570,000 on various banks. In but three cases out of fifteen 
 were the checks good. Some offered in exchange checks for the same amount, by the 
 same parties, on the Tenth National. Some offered to certify and pay through exchanges. 
 Some replied, " They might be made good by 3 o'clock ;" &c., &c. The first three I pro- 
 tested, sending Llewellyn in a carriage, with a notary and one of the clerks of the bank. 
 This of course created an excitement on the street and in the several banks they visited. 
 Not desiring in this first instance to damage individual credit, or to have it prove det- 
 rimental in any way to the national system, but rather to make it a note of warning to 
 both banks and brokers, I withheld the notices, and inclose the same herewith to you, to- 
 gether with protests, copies of checks, &c. * * "• I inclose the names and amounts 
 for which credits were thus made, and upon which certifications were based : 
 
 Fitch & Bowen $100,000 
 
 Quiuan & Enos 100,000 
 
 Dzondi&Co 100,000 
 
 H. L. Horton & Co 60,000 
 
 W. P. Livermore & Co 50, 000 
 
 Suydam&Co 50,000 
 
 A. Frank&Bro 30,000 
 
 Fearing & Hazelton 25, 000 
 
 J. & W. Seligman & Co 500,000 
 
 A. W. Shepherd $100,000 
 
 Hoyt& Gardner 100,000 
 
 E.F.Eook 100,000 
 
 Beed, Leo & Cartent 100, 000 
 
 C.Benedict 80,000 
 
 M. MitcheU 50,000 
 
 W. J. Hale & Co 40,000 
 
 T. C. Markham & Co 30,000 
 
 W. H. Messinger&Co 25,000 
 
 making a total of $1,640,000. 
 
 The check of J. W. Benedict, indorsed by C. Benedict, on the American Exchange 
 Bank, was dated in March, (no day,) and pronounced by that bank a forgery. A. Frank 
 & Bro. are the same parties who, some months since, failed to make good their account, 
 and who now owe the bank $26,807 55 for the same, on an extension for several mouths 
 —Ability to pay predicated on success in " business," with these certifications as capital. 
 
 Q. As I understand the matter, on this plan, a man draws a check and 
 puts it into the bank, and then uses the bank's credit to do his own 
 business with. — ^A. That is it exactly. 
 
 (The witness here exhibited to the committee the notices, protests, and 
 other papers in connection with the matter set forth above.) 
 
 By the Chaieman: 
 
 Q. How long before the September panic did this examination take 
 place? — A. It was made about the middle of April. 
 
 Q. Did you, as the Chief of the Currency Bureau, consider that condi- 
 tion of the bank a satisfactory one ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What steps, if any, did you' take in reference to that matter after 
 the receipt of the report ? — A. I instructed the examiner to watch care- 
 fully, and if the practice was continued, and if any violation of the law 
 could be proved, to report to me at once. There is some difSculty when 
 matters are not satisfactory in establishing a positive violation of the 
 law. 
 
 Q. State to the committee what led to the appointment of a board of 
 special examiners to be sent to New York on the night of the 23d of 
 September 1 — A. The Secretary of the Treasury informed me that he had 
 received information from New York to the effect that the Tenth Na- 
 tional Bank was engaged in a scheme to lock up greenbacks, and he 
 requested me to designate a man from my office, to join two others, one 
 appointed by himself and one by the Treasurer, to go to New York to 
 examine the bank. I appointed a man for that purpose, and, at the re- 
 quest of the Secretary, commissioned the other two as examiners, and 
 sent them on for that purpose. That is all I know about it. 
 
 Q. Had you any other reason for their appointment than you have 
 stated ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
412 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Were jou ever shown the letters of complaint to the Secretary ?— 
 No, sir. 
 
 Q. What was the impression made on your mind on the receipt of 
 their report as to the conduct of that bank during the days of the panic ? 
 Did you regard its course as in accordance with the law ? — A. No, sir ; 
 not strictly. My opinion, however, was that, if the examiners had not 
 been in the bank on that day, Friday, the certifications of the bank would 
 have been much greater than they were. I gathered that from the re- 
 port made by the examiners, to the effect that parties who came with 
 their checks to be certified were turned away, with a whispered state- 
 ment, that government examiners were in there, and that they could 
 not do it. 
 
 Q. I believe you recommended in your annual report that some legis- 
 lation be had restricting the practice of certifying checks, did you not 1— 
 A. I did last year and the year before, and at the last session of Con- 
 gress a law was enacted upon the subject, which was intended to have 
 a restraining influence. 
 
 Q. State to the committee whether that law is, in your judgment, ef- 
 fective for the purpose which it is designed. — A. Not as Mly as I could 
 wish. I think, however, that it has had a good effect, and that certifications 
 are not carried to the same extent that they were before. Where they 
 are the bank has better security for them. 
 
 Q. Do you recommend any additional legislation ? — A. I do not. 
 
 Q. What is your judgment as to the propriety of forbidding the cer- 
 tification of checks where there are no deposits of money, but only de- 
 posits of other certified checks 1 — A. I do not think that the law would 
 permit such certification now. I am inclined to think that it is done, 
 but it is difficult to get at the facts ; there are so many ways of evading 
 the law. 
 
 By Mr. Btjrchaud : 
 Q. As I understand, there is evidence to show that there were many 
 millions of certified checks deposited in the Tenth National Bank on 
 Thursday, and that millions of certification were issued upon them ? — 
 A. My idea was that certification should be restricted to the actual 
 money in the bank to the credit of the depositor. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Have you knowledge, or satisfactory ground for believing, that 
 there was any combination in the city of New York or elsewhere to 
 disturb or breals: down the national banking system during the period of 
 the gold panic ? — A. I know of nothing to that effect ; I was not there, 
 however, and vi'as not able to judge. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any information lodged with you as an officer 
 of the government to the effect that such a plan was in operation ? — A. 
 I had statements from the examiner, Mr. Callender, that he believed 
 such a scheme was on foot. 
 
 Q. Did you see sufficient reason to lead you to suppose that that was 
 so ? — A. I cannot say positively. I had reason to believe at one time 
 during the last year that a movement was on foot to carry the national 
 banks back to the New York State banking system. I received notice 
 from several banks that they had reconverted themselves to State banks ; 
 and those notices were all on the same printed forms, evidently prepared 
 for the purpose, and used by some banks in Albany, Troy, and New 
 York ; and I was advised that there was a general movement on foot, 
 and that it would result in the transfer of all the old banks in New York 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 413 
 
 City to the State banking system ; but as to the particular movement in 
 September, I have no means of judging. 
 
 Q. Was any effort made during the time that those examiners were 
 on duty as such to procure their recall ? — A. ISo, sir. 
 
 Q. Were they recalled before they completed their examination 1 — 
 A. Not before they completed their examination of the Tenth National 
 Bank. 
 
 Q. 'Have you any knowledge that any officer of the "government of 
 the United States was concerned or interested in the gold movement in 
 September ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Washington, Febniary i, 1870. 
 
 C. A. TlNKEK sworn and examined. 
 To the Chairman : 
 
 I reside in Washington, D. C. I am manager of the Western Union 
 telegraph line, for the city of Washington. I was so employed on the 
 .24th of September last. On that day I saw a message from the Secre- 
 tary of the Treasury to General Butterfleld, assistant treasurer at New 
 York, directing him to sell gold and purchase bonds ; my attention was 
 called to it, in order that it might be hurried over the hue. It was not 
 brought to the main office, corner of the avenue and Fourteenth street, 
 but to the branch office, 450 Fifteenth street. I was at that time in 
 the operating room of the main office. 
 
 Question. Have you any means of stating precisely at what time you first 
 had knowledge of that dispatch ? — Answer. It would be impossible for 
 me to state simply by recollection, because I am often in and out of the 
 operating room. This day, however, I happened to be in this room. 
 Since yesterday, anticipating that you would call upon me in regard to 
 that dispatch, I have examined it to see what were the time marks upon it, 
 I find that it was received at the branch office on Fifteenth street at 
 11.45 a. m. My instructions to the operator at that office are, when a 
 dispatch of importance is received, and she has not the use of the wire 
 to New York, if that is the point of destination, to send it immediately 
 to the main office, where we have wires working constantly. Miss Cook, 
 the operator, held it about five minutes, and then sent it to the main 
 office, from which it was sent through immediately to Ne^ York. The 
 marks upon the dispatch show that it was in the main office three 
 minutes. 
 
 Q. What' is the difference of time between New York and Washing- 
 ton ? — A. About twelve minutes. 
 
 Q. Was there anybody in the main office beside yourself when the 
 dispatch was received from the branch office? — ^A. Yes, sir; there were 
 twelve or fifteen operators there at the time. 
 
 Q. Did any other person except yourself know of the dispatch being 
 received 1 — ^A. The operator who received the dispatch, a Mr. Kerbey, 
 knew of it ; and the operator who sent it to New York, named Burns, 
 knew of it. 
 
 Q. Did you get any response from New York indicating its receipt ? — 
 A. The proper response would be " O. K.," from the operator receiving: 
 it ; and I find that response recorded. 
 
 Q. Did the message " O. K." bear date, so as to show at what time it 
 was received 1 — A. The time marks would be placed upon the dispatch 
 by the operator here. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the clock at the branch office agreed with 
 
414 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 the clock at yonr office that dayl— A. I suppose it did. We have the 
 time at 12 m. from the Observatory, which time is given to all our 
 Ibrancli ofi&ces. 
 
 Q. Is there anything in the branch office which would show whether 
 the dispatch was sent from there, or from your office, directly to New 
 York ? — A. Tes ; the number will show that. 
 
 Q. -Would the operator certainly know, in sending the message, 
 whether it was to go direct to New York direct, or through your office?— 
 A. Certainly ; it would be sent on different wires. 
 
 Q. Aside from the operator who received the dispatch in your office, 
 and the one who sent it to New York, was there any other person, 
 besides yourself, who knew of its existence there ? — A. Yes, sir. Under 
 0U5 system, the messenger boy takes the dispatch and passes it to the 
 number clerk, who records its number ; and the operator checks it from 
 the number. The message would, therefore, have passed through the 
 hands of the messenger boy and of the number clerk, who is also a 
 boy ; but I think neither of them would have been likely to read it. 
 
 Q. Did you give this message any special attention, so as to know 
 that it was sent promptly! — A. Yes, sir; I did. 
 
 Q. Have any brokers any special arrangement in regard to telegraph- 
 ing ? Is there what is called a brokers' wire ? — A. We give for the use 
 of brokers one wire between here and New York, whicli also connects 
 with the brokers' offices in Philadelphia and Baltimore. There are 
 three offices in New York connected with this wire, so that the brokers 
 here have direct communication with the gold board, the stock board— 
 the main office in New York — and with the brokers' offices in the other 
 cities to which I have referred. 
 
 Q. Was any dispatch sent over the brokers' wire concerning the sale 
 of Treasury gold within fifteen minutes before or after this dispatch ?— 
 A. I cannot answer from my own knowledge ; if anything of that kind 
 were sent from the main office the records would show it. The brokers' 
 wire has two termini in Washington, one at the main office and one on 
 Fifteenth street. 
 
 Q. If Miss Cook had sent the dispatch directly to New York, would 
 she have sent it over the brokers' wire ? — A. Yes, sir, over the same 
 wire we would have sent it by. 
 
 Q. And she could have sent it over that wire instead of sending it to 
 the main office ? — A. My inference is, that that wire was occupied at 
 the moment, so that she could not get the message in. If another office, 
 perhaps in Baltimore, for instance, were using the wire to communicate 
 with New York, it would prevent her sending the message at the mo- 
 ment. 
 
 Q. State, as the manager of this line, what records were made in New 
 York of the receipt of this dispatch, and the disposition made of it ?— 
 A. Anticipating the question of the committee, I telegraphed to the 
 manager of the Wall street office. New York, asking by what operator 
 the message was received, and the time of its receipt : also the time of 
 its delivery, and by whom receipted for on the message-book, to which 
 she replies as follows : 
 
 Washington message of September 24 received Ijy Miss S. F. Turner, at 12.09, our 
 time ; receipted at 12.10, by General Butterfield. 
 
 M. E. LEWIS, Manager. 
 
 Q. Now, allowing for the difference of time between Washington and 
 New York, how may minutes actually elapsed from the time the mes- 
 sage was sent until it reached General Butterfield ? — A. From the branch 
 office to the main office was five minutes ; through the main office three 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 415 
 
 minutes ; time occupied in sending it, perhaps, one minute. And the 
 record is that it was delivered to General Butterfleld within one minute 
 of the time of its receipt in New York. I do not know the distance 
 from the telegraph oflBce to the sub-treasury ; but they must be very near 
 each other. This would leave four minutes unaccounted for ; which, I 
 think, is to be explained by the difference in clocks. 
 
 Q. What is the name of the messenger who carried the dispatch from 
 the Few York office to General Butterfleld ? — A. I do not know ; he was 
 a messenger of the Wall street office. The message was delivered to 
 him sealed, and he would have had no opportunity of learning its con- 
 tents ; certainly not within the one minute's time within which it was 
 delivered to General Butterfleld. 
 
 The witness subsequently furnished to the committee the following 
 copies of the dispatch, as received at the branch office on Fifteenth 
 street, and as copied at the main office and sent to !N"ew York : 
 
 [By telegram.] 
 7 W. 
 
 11.45, Sbftembek 24, 1869. 
 To Daniel Butterfield, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer United States, New YorJe. 
 SeU four mUlions (4,000,000) gold to-morro-w, and buy four millions (4,000,000) bonds. 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, 
 Secretary of the Treasury. 
 Charge to Department. 
 lOF. S. 40. Paid. 
 
 Co. & K.— 11.55. 
 
 I certify the within to be a true copy, of original telegram on file in this office. 
 
 CHAS. A.tTINKEE, 
 Manager W. XJ. Telg'k, WasMngion, D. C. 
 7 P. S. 23. Dx. 
 
 WASHmOTON, 24, 1869. 
 (Received at comer Fourteenth street and Pennsylvania avenue, 11.50 a. m.) 
 
 To DaUIKI. BUTTEKPIKLD, 
 
 Assistant Treasurer United States, New Torh. 
 SeU four millions (4,000,000) gold to-morrow, and buy four millions (4,000,000) bonds, 
 
 GEO. S. BOUTWELL, 
 • Secretary Treasury. 
 
 Co. & K. 
 lOF. 8. 40. Paid. 
 
 I certify the foregoing to be a true copy of telegram on file in this ofSce. 
 
 CHAS. A. TINKER, 
 Manager W. U. Telg'h, Washington, D. C. 
 
 Washington, February 5, 1870. 
 C. A. Tinker recalled and re-examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Have you the general charge of the Western Union Tele- 
 graph Company's office in Washington? — Answer. Yes, sir; I have. 
 
 Q. Have you in your possession, or under your control, or are there 
 in the possession of the telegraph company which employs you, any 
 telegrams which were sent over the wires from Washington to New York, 
 on Friday, the 24th of September, 1869, which were filed with you for 
 
416 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION, 
 
 transmission between the hours of 11.15 a. m. and 12,15 p. m,, in relation 
 to the purchase or sale of gold, other than the dispatch of Secretary 
 Boutwell to General Butterfleld, which has already been produced before 
 this committee ? — A, We have. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. The committee desire you to produce them, — A, I cannot comply 
 with the request of the committee, under my present instructions, I 
 will lay the request before the company for instructions, and give a final 
 decision in an hour or two, 
 
 Q. You stated in your former dispatch the offices in Washington, New 
 York, Baltimore, and Philadelphia, with which this brokers' wire con- 
 nected, over which the dispatch from the Secretary of the Treasury to 
 General Butterfield passed. State whether an operator in any of these 
 offices would understand a dispatch sent over that wire ? — A, If he or 
 she were a sound operator it would be possible, 
 
 Q, During the eight or ten minutes' delay between the time this dis- 
 patch was brought to the branch office on Fifteenth street and the time 
 it was brought to the main office, could it have been sent fl:om that office 
 to New York without coming through your office ? — A, It could, but by 
 no one except Miss Cook, 
 
 Q, Could she have sent it to New York without its coming through 
 the main office ? — A. She could have sent it direct. It would only have 
 been heard at the instrument at the main office, without passing through 
 that instrument, 
 
 Q, State whether, during that ten minutes, you heard that dispatch 
 go over the wires from Miss Cook's office to New York? — A.. I can only 
 state from ray memory that I did not, . I was out and in the operating 
 room, and if such a dispatch was sent, I may have heard it without 
 being able to remember it now, 
 
 Q, Have you any knowledge or belief tha.t any person in your office 
 heard that dispatch go over the wires before you sent it, at the time 
 you have testified ? — A, I have no knowledge that any one did. 
 
 Washington, February 7, 1870. 
 
 C, A, Tinker recalled. 
 
 (Witness laid before the committee a dispatch, received by him from the 
 executive committee of the Western Union Telegraph Company. 
 
 Witness also presented the dispatches called for by the committee 
 which were received at the Western Union Telegraph Company ia this 
 city between the hours of 10.15 a, m. and 12.15 p, m, on the 24th of Sep- 
 tember,) 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q, Are these six dispatches that you have produced before the com- 
 mittee all the dispatches that were sent over your wires or delivered at 
 either of your offices (the main and the branch offices) duriag that period, 
 relating to the sale or purchase of gold ? — A, They are, 
 
 Q. Are two of these six the same dispatches that have hitherto been 
 laid before the committee by the Secretary of the Treasury, the first di- 
 recting the sale of gold, and the second giving later instructions con- 
 cerning that sale ? — A, They are. 
 
 On motion of Mr, Judd it was resolved that, as the four remaining 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 417 
 
 dispatches -were of a private nature, and -wholly immaterial to th§ sub- 
 ject-matter of the investigation, they be returned to the witness and be 
 not introduced as part of the testimony. 
 
 Washington, Februwry 5, 1870. 
 
 FoED C. Baeksdale sworn and examined. 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Question. Please state your residence and occupation.^ — Answer. I 
 reside in "Sew York ; I am a journalist. 
 
 Q. State to the committee what your relation to the press was in Sep- 
 tember last. — A, 1 was one of the editors of the Sun ; I remained so up 
 to a few days since, when, for the purpose of being able to contribute to 
 more papers, I resigned. 
 
 Q. Are you acquainted with Mr. Oorbin? — A. I "interviewed" Mr. 
 Corbin, Mr. Gould, and others, and made the "expose," as it was called, 
 in the Sun. 
 
 Q. Do you know General Butterfleld l^—A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. How long have you known Mr. Corbin? — A. Since the first day of 
 October last. 
 
 Q. How long have you known General Butterfleld ? — A. Since about 
 the 10th of October. 
 
 Q. What do you know of your own knowledge with respect to this 
 gold panic and the causes which produced it 1 — A. I have had the story 
 from Mr. Catherwood, Mr. Pisk, Mr. Gould, Mr. Corbin, Mr. Butterfleld, 
 and others. I have no knowledge of my own. 
 
 Q. You know that there was a combination to put up the price of gold 
 in September ?— A. Yes, sir ; from interviews which I have had with the 
 leading parties connected with it. 
 
 Q. State anything you know in reference to the appointment of G-en- 
 eral Butterfleld as sub-treasurer, in connection with speculations in gold, 
 if you know anything about it, either through General Butterfleld, Mr. 
 Corbin, or Mr. Catherwood. — ^A. Colonel Catherwood's statement to me 
 was that he was spoken to for the place of sub-treasurer, prior to the 
 time that General Butterfleld was; that the programme was made out 
 for what he was to do in case he got the appointment, but that he de- 
 clined to flU the entire bill. 
 
 Q. State what you understand by the entire bill. — ^A. It was to give 
 inside news from the Treasury Department to these parties, so that they 
 could make money. 
 
 Q. Who is Mr. Catherwood? — A. He is the step-son-in-law of Mr. 
 Corbin. 
 
 Q. Eelate what you know in relation to the appointment of General 
 Butterfleld as sub-treasurer. — ^A. On Mr. Catherwood's declining. Gen- 
 eral Butterfleld was proposed and pushed by Corbin, Gould, and Dick 
 Schell, as I suppose. I only know positively that Gould and Corbin put 
 him forward, and that he was nominated. 
 
 Q. Give the committee the sources of your information about him. — 
 A. Mr. Catherwood and General Butterfleld. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. You say Mr. Catherwood told you that a proposition was made to 
 him to take the position of sub-treasurer, but that he declined to fill the 
 biU. Did he tell you what persons had proposed to him that he should 
 
 H. Eep. 31 ^27 
 
418 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 be appointed?— A. He did not state any one positively, except Gorbin 
 and Gould. They were referred to directly by Catherwood. He made 
 objections to certain things, and through their influence he was with- 
 drawn. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. State what other information you received from any of these par- 
 ties in relation to this subject of the appointment of General Butterfleld. 
 —A. My information was from Mr. Gould ; also from Mr. Butterfleld. 
 When Butterfleld was nominated, Catherwood says, he agreed that he 
 would give them such information as from time to time came into his 
 hands, by which prior information they could make money. General 
 Butterfle'ld told me that these parties did not come to the sub-treasury, 
 nor to him, at all ; but that their operations were based upon informsij- 
 tion coming to them from Mr. Corbin ; which, they stated, he got from 
 Butterfleld in consequence of securing his nomination. 
 
 Q. This information, then, comes from Butterfleld as well as from 
 Catherwood 1 — ^A. Both from Butterfleld and Catherwood. 
 
 Q. Can you state when these interviews were had? — ^A. The interview 
 with General Butterfleld occurred three days before the article appeared 
 in the New York Times, which was called the defense of General Butter- 
 fleld. 
 
 Q. Were you the author of that article ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Will you send the articlQ to the committee ? — A. I will. 
 
 Q. Who authorized you to write that article ? — A. General Butter- 
 fleld; though I suspect that in writing it 1 went a little too far. It 
 was not intended as a defense of General Butterfleld, but as a defense 
 of President Graflt. 
 
 Q. The facts therein stated came through General Butterfleld ? — ^A. 
 All the facts except the supposed defense of Corbin. That was done 
 for the purpose of drawing out certain, doouments said to be in posses- 
 sion of other parties, and it had that effect. All the other facts con- 
 tained in the article came to me through General Butterfleld. 
 
 Q. The article charges, 1 believe, that sixty thousand dollars worth of 
 paintings and statuary were- sent to the White House, and that when 
 General Grant discovered them he had them reboxed, in the night, and 
 sent back to New York. Did General Butterfleld tell you that fact ?— 
 A. He told me that such a thing was done; that while they were re- 
 pairing the White House, in September, these goods were put into the 
 house as a present to the President, as was supposed. 
 
 By Mr. Jones: 
 
 Q. Did he tell you by whom they were presented? — A.' By the "ring;" 
 he said " Dent" was in possession of the White House at that time; he 
 . said I do not know whether General Dent, or who ; he said they had been 
 ;placed in position on the walls, in corners, and niches, &c.; but that 
 when the President came home and saw them there he asked Dent if it 
 was generally known that he was there ; Dent said it was not ; and the 
 President ordered them to be immediately repacked and sent back to 
 JTew York. 
 
 >Q. How did General Butterfleld say he knew all this ? — A. I do not 
 know what he said ; he did not mention the name of any one as his infor- 
 mant ; he simply said such a thing was done. 
 
 By Mr. Bubchakd : 
 Q. And he asked you to write an article for publication stating these 
 things? — A. I do not know that he then asked me to write an article. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATIOK. 419 
 
 I was then preparing an article on ar larger scale, for the purpose of mak- 
 ing the exposure. That article, however, I have never written. The 
 thing got pretty warm in ITew York City against Butterfleld, and rather 
 lively against Corbin, so I did not write it, as 1 intended. 
 
 Q. Have you ever received any consideration for withholding any of 
 the facts which you learned in relation to this matter? — ^A. No, sir; the 
 real object I had in withholding what I learned, at least some of the 
 things I learned, has been that I intended to write a drama on the 
 thing. 
 
 Q. Have you ever received any money, either through Corbin, Butter- 
 field, or any other person, in consideration of writing or withholding 
 any information you obtained in reference to this gold movement? — A. 
 I have received money from other parties for other purposes, but I never 
 received any money from Corbin or Fisk. 
 
 Q. Have you answered my question fully ? — A. I cannot say that I 
 ever received any money from Mr. Butterfleld for writing on this subject. 
 I received money on two dtfit'erent occasions from Mr. Butterfleld for 
 writing for him. 
 
 Q. For writing either in relation to the gold panic or in relation to the 
 treasury ? — ^A. Not in relation to the treasury. I received a hunc^red 
 dollars after I wrote that article in the New York Times, for writing it. 
 
 Q. From whom ? — A. From General Butterfleld ; under the express 
 stipulation that it was for defending General Grant from complicity in 
 the gold movement. General Butterfleld said that, so far as he himsek 
 was concerned, he would rather have given any amount of money than 
 to have had it written. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen any letters written by Corbin to Butterfleld 
 in relation to the sub-treasury 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you stated fully the interview you have had on this sub- 
 ject? — A. I think Mr. Catherwood, instead of asking the position of 
 sub-treasurer for himself, was desirous that Mr. Eno should be ap- 
 pointed. 
 
 Q. Did they state to you that Mr. Butterfleld was ready to do their 
 work ? — A. They told me that he had ' ' gone back on them ;" that he had 
 not done what he promised to do. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of these facts previous to his appointment? — A. My 
 information previous to his appointment is too indefinite to enable me 
 to state anything on the subject. 
 
 Q. State the particulars of your interview with Corbin on the 1st of 
 October? — ^A. I have that in my pocket in print. 
 
 By Mr. Buechakd : 
 Q. When was it that the conversation occurred in which Mr. Cather- 
 wood told you about this arrangement with General Butterfleld, and the 
 proposition they made to him ? — A. I think it was on Monday night, 
 October 4, at Mr. Catherwood's own house — at least it was the night 
 of the great freshet. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Catherwood say that the position of assistant treasurer of 
 New York had been tendered him ? — A. He said he could have had it. 
 
 Q. Who told him he could have hatl it? — ^A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Did he say any officer of the United States government had ten- 
 dered it to him? — A. No, sir; I do not think he did. 
 
 Q. Did he say any officer of the United States government had told 
 him it could be or would be tendered him? — A. I do not think he did. 
 Catherwood is a very careful talker. 
 
420 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Did he allude to any person or persons as being tlie ones who told 
 him he could have it ?— A. Yes ; he referred tO Corbin. He also stated 
 that he had been deceived by soiae person in reference to the same 
 thing; that the person had not allowed him to know that Mr. Butter- 
 field had been substituted until long after his appointment. 
 
 Q. You mean that Oatherwood didn't know that he could have been 
 been appointed until long after Butterfleld was appointed ?— A. That 
 was as I understood it. 
 
 Q. And after Butterfleld was appointed, Catherwood understood that 
 he could have had it? — A. That is as I understood it. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. State all the information you have in reference to the appointment 
 of Butterfleld ; whether you obtained it from Butterfleld, Catherwood, 
 or Corbin. — A. I think I have stated it all. Catherwood, after this inter- 
 view on the evening of the freshet, before referred to, said that Cor- 
 bin's deceiving Mm in respect to that matter had cost him sixty thousand 
 dollars. How, he didn't tell me. He said that if Corbin had not got 
 weak-kneed on the gold question the thing would have succeeded. 
 
 Q. Did Catherwood say he was interested at all in this gold panic, or 
 movement ? — ^A. He said he was not ; that they kept it a secret from Mm. 
 
 Q. Did he state that he knew who were interested, or give you any 
 hints as to who were interested ? — A. Catherwood said that if the man- 
 agement of the gold ring had been left to him, as was at first suggested, 
 it would have been a success ; that the reason it failed was, that Corbin 
 got weak-kneed. I am not positive that he used Corbin's name, but he 
 referred to the one who had the management of the afiair, and that was 
 Corbin. 
 
 Q. Was that all that Mr. Catherwood said to you about this busi- 
 ness ? — A. No, sir. The next most important interview, I think, was 
 ten days ago, at Mr. Catherwood's office, No. 74 Broadway. His brother, 
 William L. Catherwood, asked me why I had never mentioned the real 
 originator of the gold ring °? He did not mention the name. 
 
 Q. Did he at any time mention his name 1 — A. He did not. 
 
 Q. Do you Itnow who it was 1 — A. I think I do. In reply to his ques- 
 tion why I had not mentioned the real name of the originator of the 
 gold movement, I told him that certain parties had commenced using 
 so much venom on the subject that I would have no more to do with it, 
 and therefore stopped the expose all around before one-tenth of it had 
 come out. In further conversation in reference to this subject Mr. 
 Catherwood said that the man to whom he referred was very wealthy; 
 that he held the republican party of New York State in his hands ; that 
 the proposition to Sir. Catherwood about being appointed sub-treasurer 
 first came through him and to the gold ring in writing. That docu- 
 ment Mr. William Catherwood consideied so important that he suggested 
 to his brother, Eobert L., that he should take it to a notary jrablic and 
 have it certified to, which was done. The name of the person who origi- 
 nated the gold ring has never been mentioned, and I do not know it, 
 although I guessed the names of a good many persons, right there. 
 
 Q. You say there was a letter written and authenticated before a 
 notary public ? — A. Yes, sir. -^ 
 
 Q. With reference to this gold panic? — A. Whether it was in refer- 
 ence to the gold panic only, or to the appointment of the ring, I do not 
 know. This was before the panic. 
 
 By the Chaieman : 
 Q. Did you ever see the letter?— A. No, sir. W. L. Catherwood told 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 421 
 
 me that the clerk of that house took it and had it certified before a 
 notary public. Eobert Catherwood told me the same thing. 
 
 Q. Who was the notary public ? — ^A. 1 do not know that. The impor- 
 tant thing in that letter I understood was the nomination of Butterfleld 
 and his appointment. 
 
 By Mr. Oox: 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of any government officer being con- 
 nected with this movement ? — ^A. No more than that General Butterfleld 
 told me, I believe, that half a million dollars gold was bought for General 
 Porter, and that General Porter refused to accept it. I gave the sub- 
 stance of that in the Times afterward. 
 
 Q. Had you any conversation or communication with Mr. Gould in 
 reference to it ; and if so, what information did you get from him ? — ^A. 
 The substance of the information that I got from him was published in 
 the New York Sun on the 2d of October. 
 
 Q. Had you interviews with Mr. Gould and Mr. Pisk together ?— A. 
 Yes ; twenty or thirty of them, I presume. 
 
 Q. That article of the 2d October was written by you for the Sun ? — 
 A. Yes j everything about it was written by me. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. You were asked a little while ago whether you had received any 
 inoney from several parties, naming them, and^I think you answered in 
 the negative from several of them, but that you omitted the name of Mr. 
 Gould. I ask you if you ever received any compensation from Mr. Gould 
 for any services done by you for him in the way of writing on any of 
 these subjects 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever receive any money from him? — A. Yes, sir ; I asked 
 him once for the loan of one hundred dollars, and he gave it to me. 
 
 Q. Was that in the way 'of compensation for your services ? — A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 * Q. When did you receive this money from Mr. Gould 1 — ^A. After I 
 had stopped writing. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Did you receive any money from Mr. Pisk ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Locate your interviews with Mr. Gould, if j^ou can, and state what 
 they were. — A. The first interview that I had with Mr. Gould was on 
 the morning of the 1st October following the printing of my report of 
 my first interview with Mr. Corbin on the 30th of September. They sent 
 a messenger to the Sun office for one of the managers of the paper, and 
 Mr. Dana sent me. It was to take into consideration Mr. Corbin's note 
 to Mr. Pisk denying that he had any such conversation as was stated in 
 my report of the interview. Mr. Pisk, Mr. Gould, and Mr. Crouch, of 
 the Herald, were sitting together, and Mr. Pisk showed me the note. 
 
 Q. What was the substance of the note ? — A. That he, Oorbia, had 
 not spoken of Mr. Pisk in any way derogatory to him, as was published 
 in ^e Sun. I repeated that Corbin had said so. They said then that it 
 was a question of veracity between Corbin and me. I replied that there 
 was no question of veracity at all, but that Mr. Corbin had said aU I had 
 printed, and a great deal more that was too nonsensical to print — ^that 
 he was a good Methodist, his being a long time in the Methodist church, 
 his not associating with such men, &c. The note was to the effect to 
 assure Mr. Pisk that in his conversation with the Sun reporter yester- 
 day what he had said belittling or derogatory to him was not true. That 
 was two or three mornings following the black Pridd^\ 
 
422 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION, 
 
 Q. Detail any conversations that you had with Mr. Corbin in reference 
 to this gold busmess, and locate them.— A. Mr. Gould and Mr. Fisk 
 asked me if I would, go and see Mr. Corbin again about his denying this, 
 and I said I would, and Mr. Crouch, of the Herald, said that if I went 
 he would go, too. I left the Erie oflce and went up and saw Corbin 
 again. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Did Corbin ever tell you anything about this gold conspiracy?— 
 A. He denied that he had any connection whatever with it, or with 
 Messrs. Fisk and Gould. He said he had never sold a dollar of gold, had 
 never been in the gold-room, and had never speculated in gold ; that all 
 he had ever done in that way was to have the coupons of his bonds sold. 
 After I had been to Corbin's, I went back and saw Gould and Fisk, and 
 they said they were satisfied since I had left, that what I had said yes- 
 terday as to what Corbin had said was true. When I first went to Cor- 
 bin's house on the 30th of September, he sent word back that he was 
 engaged on particular business and asked me to call again at 12 o'clock. 
 When I went back at 12 o'clock, Mr. Fisk was there, and Mr. Crouch, of 
 the Herald, was outside. 
 
 By Mr. Btjkchaed : 
 Q. Do you know that Mr. Fisk saw Mr. Corbin on that occasion? — A., 
 That was proved beyond all doubt. Mr. Corbin so stated himself to me. 
 Mr. Crouch went with Mr. Fisk to the house. Mr. Fisk was in the back 
 room when my card was sent in, and said, " Corbin, look out for those 
 men." So Corbin sent word to me to come back at 4 o'clock. At 4 
 o'clock, when I had my real interview with Corbin, he said that Fisk had 
 not been in the house since a certain time in the summer, when he was 
 there to inquire about General Grant going up to Fall Eiver and New- 
 port, and offered him a passage in one of his' boats. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Fisk or Mr. Gould ever tell you what connection there 
 had been between Mr. Corbin and themselves? — A. They said he was a 
 joint sharer with them. 
 
 Q. Did they fell you that he was to operate with the administration 
 to effect their purposes 1 — A. Yes, sir ; that he had it all fixed with the 
 administration ; that they invested their own money and advanced Mm 
 $25,000 and had put up a check of $100,000 more on deposit ; and that 
 the object of Mr. Fisk's interview with him that day when 1 was to call 
 again, was to demand that he should pay for the loss he sustained on 
 his share. I also saw a note written in the office to Mr. Corbin, demand- 
 ing that he should make an immediate settlement, or that the case 
 would be put in the hands of their lawyers to be enforced. 
 
 Q. Did they tell you what Mr. Corbin was to do, or what parties he 
 was to approach 1 — A. Yes ; they said that he had approached General 
 Grant, and that General Grant's family had shared in this matter. 
 
 Q. Who said that?— A. Mr. Fisk. 
 
 Q. State what Mr. Fisk or Mr. Gould said to you in regard to that 
 . matter, as to what Mr. Corbin's professions or promises had been to 
 them, what he was to do, and how he should do it, and whether the 
 President or any of his family had been interested in the results of the 
 whole thing? — A. I do not think that General Grant alone was men- 
 tioned ; it was always his family that was mentioned. 
 
 Q. State what Mr. Fisk told you — A. That is all stated in these 
 articles. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 423 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. I understood you to say that you were present at an interview be- 
 tween Mr. Fisk and Mr. Oorbin, after the breakdown of gold ? — A. No, 
 sir; I never saw Mr. Fisk in Mi. Corbin's house. I say that when I 
 went back to Mr. Corbin's on Thursday, the 30th September, having 
 been already there in the morning, Mr. Fisk's carriage was outside, and 
 Mr. Crouch, of the Herald, was sitting in it. 
 
 Q. Did you see Fisk and Oorbin together that day ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. How do you know that they were together ? — A. Mr: Fisk told me 
 so, and Mr. Crouch told me so, and Mr. Corbin told me so the next day. 
 
 Q. What do you say as to the truth of this statement, which refers to 
 the Saturday after the panic, " He, Corbin, went down to Washington 
 on Saturday night, as 1 afterward heard, and came back on Monday 
 night, spending the day, Sunday, in Washington ; I have never seen 
 him from that day to this ;" if that is testified to by J. Fisk, jr., under 
 oath, what do you say of it as to its being true or false ? — ^A. That is a 
 statement under misapprehension of one week's time. 
 
 Q. Is the statement true or false ? — A. Here are a dozen different afl- 
 davits to the contrary. There must be a mistake in the time. The day 
 when I went there, and when Fisk was in the back room of Mr. Cor- 
 bin's house, according to Mr. Crouch's testimony and Mr. Fisk's testi- 
 mony, was on the 30th of September. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. Do I understand you to say that you never saw any letter written 
 by any of these parties with reference either to the appointment of Gen- 
 eral Butterfleld, or to the combination to raise the price of gold ? — A. 
 N(X sir ; I stated it in reference to the appointment of Mr. Butterfleld. 
 
 Q. Have you ever seen any letters written by either of those parties 
 with reference to the r&,ising of the price of gold? — A. Yes, sir. I saw 
 Mr. Gould's letter to General Grant, which was delivered at the pier of 
 the FaU River boat, the night when the President was going there. 
 Mr. Gould showed me the letter, stating about three hundred ships being 
 on the sea to carry grain to England. This was the time when President 
 Grant was not accompanied by either of them. ^ 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Did you see the letter delivered to President Grant 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Who showed you the letter ? — A. Mr. Jay Gould. 
 
 Q. Did he say that he had delivered it ? — ^A. He said that Mr. Fisk 
 had delivered it. 
 
 Q. Was what you saw a copy or the original ? — A. I do not know ; 
 it was in Gould's handwriting. 
 
 Q. Do you yourself know that he delivered any letter to General 
 Grant 1 — A. Nothing but from what Mr. Fisk says, and Mr. Gould says, 
 and I think that General Grant himself says so. 
 
 Q. I ask you whether you know that Mr. Gould delivered any letter 
 to General Grant 1 — A. I do not know, but I think they all testify so.- 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. What was the substance of the letter ? — A. The substance of it 
 was to show that if gold was sold out of the treasury it would ruin the 
 business not only of the Brie company, but of the agriculturalists of 
 the country, as, if gold went down, no grain could be exported abroad. 
 
 Q. It was an expression of that theory? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
424 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Was there any reference to personal interests in the rise of gold 1— 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there any reference to a combination to put gold up? — A. I 
 think not. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. Are there any other letters from any of the parties that you can 
 recall?— A. No, sir; I do not think of any. Mr. Fisk does not heMeve 
 there are any other letters. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge from your conversation with either of 
 those parties, or otherwise, as to any officer of the government being in- 
 terested in that gold movement ? — A. They said that General Butter- 
 field was interested in it before his appointment. 
 
 By the Chaikman : 
 Q. Have you yourself any knowledge that General Butterfield was 
 engaged in the gold movement ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Did you talk with Mr. Corbin as to his relations' with the gold 
 movement as affecting the President and his household? — A. No, sir; 
 no more than as I have printed in my account of the two interviews. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Do you know of any of the family of any officer connected with the 
 government that was interested in that gold movement ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Have you any reason to believe that gold was purchased for any 
 person in the family of the President, or for any other officer of the gov- 
 ernment, during that time of speculation? — A. I have not reason enough 
 to believe that any was purchased for the family of the President; I 
 have not sufficient evidence to convince me of that. 
 
 Q. I understood you to say a while ago, in answer to a question of 
 mine, that Mr. Gould told you that Mr. Corbin knew the ropes, and that 
 the family of the President was interested? — A. If you ask me whether 
 they said so, I will say, yes ; but if you ask me whether I have reason to 
 believe it, I cannot say that I have. 
 
 Q. If you have any reason to believe it, from the conversation you 
 have had with Gould and Fisk, I want to know what the reason is? — A. 
 I believe that Mr. Corbin represented that Mrs. Grant had a part in it. 
 
 Q. Why do you believe that ? — A. From his acceptance of the check 
 to divide it. 
 
 Q. Have you any other reason for believing it? — A. That is the best 
 reason, except their word. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Gould tell you positively that Mr. Corbin told him so?— 
 A. Tes; and Mr. Fisk. They never told me any farther than, as has 
 been published, that Mr. Corbin represented that he would divide that 
 money, and that he also received the check for a hundred thousand dol- 
 Mrt on deposit, and afterward returned it ; that it was placed to his 
 credit, and that he refused to take it up. 
 
 Q. Did Gould tell you that Corbin said to him that he would divide 
 this twenty-five thousand dollars ? — A. That he would divide it, or that 
 he had divided it. 
 
 Q. With whom? — A. The President's family, I think he said. 
 
 Q. Are you sure about that ? — A. Yes, sir ; I am pretty sure about that; 
 both Fisk and Gould said so. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 425 
 
 Q. Did he designate what members of the President's family? — A. No, 
 sir; no member was mentioned — but always the family. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect when Mr. Gould told you this? — A. I think on the 
 3d of October; part of it he told me immediately after my returning 
 from my second interview with Mr. Oorbin. Mr. Gould and Mr, Fisk 
 were together. We went to the comptroller's room, and then they con- 
 fessed about the ring being up. 
 
 Q. They both told you the same thing? — A. Yes; they made the con- 
 fession that the ring was up, and that Mr. Oorbin was equally in with 
 them. When they found that Oorbin had gone back on them, they said, 
 " We will make a clean breast of it," and that, as I was on hand, I could 
 have everything exclusively for the Sun. I wrote everything that was 
 written on the subject for about a week, and the other papers copied it. 
 I wrote all the afifldavits. 
 
 Q. You say that Oorbin never admitted to you that any of this was 
 true ? — A. He denied that he ever had any transactions with those men, 
 or that they visited him. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. You stated, I think, that you suspended the publication of these 
 . matters. — ^A. I stopped giving the particulars. 
 
 Q. Why? — A. Because I thought that it was hurting parties that were 
 innocent. 
 
 Q. What parties ? — A. I thought that it was hurting General Grant, 
 and that it was hurting Mr. Butterfleld. 
 
 Q. And you thought that both were Innocent? — ^A. I knew that one 
 was innocent; I knew that General Grant was innocent. 
 
 Q. How did you know it? — A. I knew it from the absence of all proof; 
 I worked to get what proofs there were, and I do not know but that I 
 got all of them ; and there were none to show his connection with the 
 matter.^ 
 
 ByMr. Oos: 
 
 Q. When you speak of General Grant being innocent, do yon mean to 
 include his family likewise ? — ^A. No, sir ; I cannot say his family, for I 
 have General Butterfleld's word that some members of his family were 
 implicated in receiving this amount of goods that I have spoken of, 
 which was intended as a bribe — I mean the sixty thousand dollars' worth 
 of adornments for the White House. 
 
 Q. You confine it to them ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q.. TeU us who the parties are to whom you refer. — A. I refer to one 
 of the Messrs. Dent. 
 
 Q. Did Butterfield say that Dent received these goods? — A. He said 
 he had received them, and that Mr. Dent had supervised putting them in 
 the house, and knew all about them. 
 
 Q. That he knew why they came ? — A. That he knew that they were 
 presents; of course he could not tell the motive of the presents. 
 
 Q. And that this man. Dent, had accepted the presents ? — A. I do not 
 know that he accepted them; but I believe that he supervised their 
 being regulated in the White House. 
 
 ByMr. Jones: 
 
 Q. State how Mr. Butterfleld happened to say that to you — A. He 
 said it to me in the sub-treasury, three or four days before my article 
 came out in the Times. 
 
 Q. What did he say? — A. In speaking of names that I had not men- 
 tioned, he said, " I see you have left out Mr. Dent's name; " and General 
 
426 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Butterfield suggest^ that I should put in an interrogatory form, " Who 
 received the sixty thousand dollars' worth of statuary, paintings, and 
 other gewgaws that were sent to adorn the White House?" He went 
 on to say that when General Grant came home in the evening— when 
 he went there from some watering-place to hold a cabinet meeting— he 
 discovered them, and ordered them to be boxed up and sent back ; and 
 he suggested that I should ask whether Mr. Dent did do it. That is 
 about what Mr. Butterfield said on that point — that about sixty thous- 
 and dollars' worth of goods had been sent to the WTiite House and re- 
 turned. 
 
 By the Chaiemajs : 
 Q. Did he say by whom they were sent 1 — A. He did not. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. I thought you said a while ago that they were sent by the gold 
 ring. — A. ISTo ; I did not say so. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Did he say to whom they were directed in Washington ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he say when they were sent ■? — A. It was when the White House 
 was being repaired, and when General Grant was on his summer trip, 
 
 Q. During the absence of General Grant and his family? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he say to whom they were addressed ? — A. 'No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he say who, if anybody, received them? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did he say that he knew that such goods had been sent? — A. I 
 should say he did. 
 
 Q. I understood you to testify that what General Butterfield said upon 
 that point was put in the form of an interrogatory to you. — A. Why he 
 spoke of it in that way was, that I should mention it, if at all, not as 
 coming directly from him, but as comiag in the form of an interroga- 
 tory. 
 
 Q. And that was 'understood by you to be an affirmation that it was 
 so ? — A. Yes, sir ; most certainly. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. Did you gather from that conversation who the parties were who 
 sent those goods to the White House ? — A. No, not any names; the gold 
 ring generally was mentioned, and other parties who were after certain 
 appointments at the time — quite a large combination. 
 
 Q. What appointments were they after? — A. I do not know; they 
 were after some favors. 
 
 Q. I understand you to say that monej' was raised in New York by a 
 combination, for the purpose of buying this sixty thousand dollars' worth 
 of property to be sent to the White House — a combination of parties in 
 the gold ring, and of parties seeking appointments; is that what I un- 
 derstand you to swear? — A. I will not say that; I do not know that it is 
 safe for me to say that these parties were seeking ai)pointments, or that 
 they were in the gold ring; but this money was made up by people who 
 were in the gold ring and also by others ; that it was not intended as a 
 gold ring bid at aU, but to get general favors. My general impression 
 was, that it was to further this idea of preventing gold being sold out 
 of the treasury. 
 
 By Mr. JoNES : 
 Q. Did you understand General Butterfield to indicate to you by that 
 conversation that an attempt had been made to influence the adminis- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 427 
 
 tration of General Grant, through his family, to yield to that specula- 
 tion in gold? — A. I cannot answer more directly that an attempt was 
 made to influence him. I do not know whether this thing was intended 
 to influence him. 
 
 Q. How did you understand General Butterfleld in the matter? — A. 
 I understood General Butterfleld to mean that it was to buy a favor or 
 favors from Geaieral Grant — to curry favor with him. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that you understand it yourself, or that you 
 understood General Butterfleld to mean that? — A. I understand and I 
 think ho meant it. 
 
 Q. Do you understand that they were sent for that reason, or do you 
 understand that Mr. Butterfleld said so ; which is the statement that 
 you wish to make? — ^A. I say that I understand that it was for that 
 reason, and that I think General Butterfleld meant to convey that idea 
 too. 
 
 Q. Tou say that you understand that these goods were sent in order 
 to purchase favor with the administration; state to the committee upon 
 what ground you base your opinion ? — A. I do not think that men would 
 give away $60,000 for nothing. I do not know anything about it except 
 what General Butterfleld told me, and I think that General Butterfield's 
 impression was the same as mine. 
 
 Q. Did he say that his impression was so ? — ^A. No, sir ; General But- 
 terfleld did not give his opinion upon it. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. What was the occasion of that interview between General Butter- 
 fleld and ygu; was it sought by him or by you? — ^A. It was sought by 
 me. I had a dozen interviews with him. 
 
 Q. What was the object of youx visit ? — ^A. To get all the information 
 I could as to the gold ring, for the purpose of publishing it. Mr. But- 
 terfleld sat down one day and gave me a good deal, that was not pub- 
 lished, as to how Mr. Corbin had got into favor with the President ; 
 how he got into the family ; how he got into courtship ; as to the first 
 business transactions of Butterfleld and Corbin; how Corbin was under 
 the salary of the Batterflelds for years; and how the thing had all got 
 mixed up. I kept the statement, intending some day to have my story 
 after the gold excitement was all over. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Did General Butterfleld ever express an opinion to you as to 
 whether the administration had anything to do with this gold move- 
 ment? — A. General Butterfleld pledged his life and honor that the 
 administration never knew anything about it, except that he informed 
 Mr. Boutwell some ten days before black Friday that such a thing was 
 being put up. It appears that Mr. Boutwell did know of it some ten 
 days before the thing burst. 
 
 By the Chaieman: 
 
 Q. You say it appears So ? — A. General Butterfleld said that he had 
 an interview with Governor Boutwell at the St. Nicholas, when Mr. 
 BoutweU was coming on to Washington. 
 
 Q. And that is the ground of your statement that it appeared so ? — 
 A. It appeared so to me from Mr. Butterfleld's statement. 
 
 Q. Is there any other ground of fact on which it appears to you that 
 Governor BoutweU did know? — A. No, sir; except that after his being 
 
428 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 told this by General Butterfleld, he received dispatches from these par- 
 ties urging him to keep in the same direction. 
 
 Q. Do you know it?— A. Yes. I think the dispatches were repeated 
 back, and I know that he wrote a letter to Mr. Gould. 
 
 By Mr. Jones: 
 Q. Have you any reason to believe that there was any understanding 
 between the gold ring in New York that sent these goods to the White 
 House and any member of the President's family, that the articles were 
 to be sent? — A. No, sir ; I do not think that the President's family knew 
 what they were for. I do not think that the President's family (speak- 
 ing of himself, wife, and children) knew that they were there until he 
 saw them, and then he ordered them away. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 Q. Have you any reason to believe from anything that you heard 
 from Butterfield or from Corbin, that Corbin had anything to do with 
 sendiag on that property ? — A. I do not know. 
 
 By Mr. Smith : 
 
 Q. This letter of Secretary BoutweU's — to whom was it written? — A. 
 To Jay Gould. It was written from Mr. BoutweU's house, in Massor 
 chusetts. It was a very evasive letter, an unimportant letter. I could 
 see that it evaded what Mr. Gould wanted. 
 
 Q. Did it communicate any information as to the purpose of the gov- 
 ernment? — A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Cos : 
 
 Q< Did you learn from Mr. Butterfleld, or from Mr. Corbin, or from 
 other parties, anything with reference to Mr. Oorbin's help in the appoint- 
 ment of General Butterfield ? — A. That is a thing that I have not kept 
 in mind much ; but t am under the impression that Mr. Butterfleld said 
 that Mr. Corbin had helped him in obtaining his appointment. 
 
 Q. With any purpose aside from ordinary friendship ? — ^A. No, sir ; he 
 did not state for what. 
 
 Q. For no motive, whatever, in the way of speculation? — A. I have 
 not heard any authoritative motive. 
 
 Q. What did you mean by saying that Mr. Butterfield gave you an 
 account of the relations between Mr. Corbin and Mr.Butterfleld's family, 
 and all that ? — A. The point of it was that at that time the newspapers 
 were charging that he was in with Mr. Corbin, and he could not come 
 out and deny that he was, because he did not want to go back on an old 
 friend; and then he went on and told me how they had been mixed up 
 and related. He had sent up word to Mr. Corbin by a particular friend 
 to say, " If you have used my name to put up this ring, I will keep my 
 hand down and say nothing ;" and day after day, when these charges 
 came out upon Mr. Butterfleld, he would say, "You see how my rela- 
 tions are;" and he spoke of Mr. Frank Dent having attended Mr. Oor- 
 bin's school in St. Louis in 1835. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. How often were you in Mr. Corbin's house? — A. Four times. 
 
 Q. Did you ever see Mrs. Corbin during your visits? — A. No, sir; I 
 cannot swear that I ever saw her. 
 
 Q. What is Mr. Gould's character in New York as a man of veracity; 
 do you believe him to be a man of truth ? — A. I have no reason to dis- 
 believe him. 
 
 Q, What do you think of Mr. Corbiu, from what you know of him?— 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 429 
 
 A. I think he is the worst and most consummate old hypocrite I ever 
 saw. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. Did you ever tell Mr, Corbin that if you were put on the stand 
 your testimony would compromise Mrs. Grant, or anything like that ? — 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. What do you think of Mr. Pisk ; is he a man of veracity ; what 
 is his reputation in the community ? — ^A. He may have a pretty rough 
 reputation among some people, but they are mostly his enemies. 
 
 Q. What is his general reputation as a man of veracity ; is he re- 
 garded as a man of truth, or not ? — ^A. A good many whom I know do 
 say that he is not a man of truth, but, as before said, they are his ene- 
 mies who say so. I believe he tells the truth in this affair. 
 
 Q. As to the ^eater number that you know, what do they say ? — ^A. 
 I do not believe that I ever heard the greater number that I know ex- 
 press any opinion upon the subject. I would take his word. 
 
 By Mr. Packer : 
 Q. Ton say that Butterfield told you that five hundred thousand dol- 
 lars in gold were bought for General Porter ; did he state that from his 
 own knowledge, or that he heard of it publicly ? — A. He stated that he 
 saw the letters. 
 Q. What did he state as to the reply of General Porter ? — A. That 
 , he repudiated the whole transaction. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Butterfield ever tell you, or intimate to you, that Gould 
 had pmxhased gold for him ? — A. No, sir ; but both Mr. Gould and Mr. 
 Fisk alleged that Butteriield was interested in it, and I saw their de- 
 mands to him to put up his part of the pool. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Have you seen Mr. Fisk since you were summoned to appear be- 
 fore this committee ? — A. Yes, sir ; I saw him last evening in New York. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with him as to the substance of 
 his testimony before this committee ? — A. No, sir ; I had previously ; 
 he told me that all that he stated was pubUshed in the papers. 
 
 Q. Did you have any conversation with him in regard to your own 
 testimony ? — A. I told him that I was going to tell what I knew as far 
 as I was asked. 
 
 Q. Did you say in general what you would state ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there anything in your conversation that gave a basis to the 
 dispatch which I will read to you : " New York, February 4. Eeporter 
 New York Times, Washington. Ford C. Barksdale, a reporter for the 
 Sun, goes to Washington to-night to testify before the Committee on 
 Currency and Banking. Look out for him. His testimony will be full 
 and racy. He will stop at the Ebbitt house. James Fisk, jr." — A- No, 
 sir ; that is aU Mr. Fisk's composition and idea. On the contrary, I do 
 not think that I have given any racy testiinony. 
 
 By Mr. Packer : 
 Q. How did you come to have this conversation with him 1 — ^A. I go 
 to the Opera House on Erie matters about twice a day, and I was there 
 yesterday with two ladies. I had been trying to get up an article in 
 reference to the Erie railroad ; it is nothing unusual for me to be there 
 three or four times a day. 
 
430 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION, 
 
 By the CHAmMAN : 
 Q. Are you on terms of personal intimacy with Mr. J. Fisk, jr. ?— A. 
 I do not know what you call personal intimacy ; I am acquainted with 
 him. 
 
 By Mr. Packer : 
 Q. How did he know that you were coming here to testify ? — A. I 
 told him that I was coming ; I also sent word down to Mr. Catherwood 
 that I had been summoned; and asking him if he was going to Wash- 
 ington. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. How did you happen to communicate with Catherwood about it ? — , 
 A. I am at his office every day. 
 
 By the ChatrmA-N : 
 
 Q. How did you come to suppose that you and Catherwood would he 
 summoned together ? — A. Because we both had been held on so long. 
 
 Q. Who held you on ? — A. I was informed that my name was given 
 in here as one of the first witnesses ; I was informed by letter from 
 here at least fifteen days ago, that my name was handed in. 
 
 Washington, D. C, February 5, 1870. 
 EoBEET P. Brown sworn and examined. 
 
 To the Chairman : 
 
 I reside on Staten Island, New Tork ; I am an officer of the United 
 States Treasury — a detective police officer. I have been employed in the 
 sub-treasury in New Tork .since 1866. I did not hold that office in Sep- ' 
 tember last. I was at that time a messenger in the sub-treasury. My 
 duties were to carry messages, to keep order in the building, to direct 
 strangers to the different departments, and to keep people in a line when 
 they came for their interest. I recollect carrying messages during the 
 forenoon of the 24th of September from the office of General Butterfleld, 
 the assistant treasurer. I was carrying them to Morton, Bliss & Co., 
 H. W. Perkins, John Garland, J. W. Seligman, Mr. Fahnestock at Jay 
 Cooke's, and, I think, one to Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. 
 
 Q. Did you take any message to J. Fisk, jr.? — A. Not on that day. 
 
 Q. Did you take messages to any of these parties the day before the 
 break down in gold ? — A. Yes, sir ; to almost all of the said parties. 
 
 Q. Had you been in the habit for a long time of taking such mes- 
 sages 1 — A. Yes, sir, every day ; sometimes two or three times a day. 
 
 Q. Were these messages in writing, or were they verbal messages? — 
 A. They were in writing, done up in an envelope, and generally marked 
 either " private " or' " personal." 
 
 Q. How do you happen to recollect the names of all these persons ? — 
 A. Because I have been in the habit of doing General Butterfield's busi- 
 ness, and I made daily visits to all of these parties, and had done so for 
 a long time before. 
 
 Q. Did you bring any messages in return ? — ^A. I did most of the time. 
 I sometimes brought back verbal messages. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect any verbal message that you were ordered to de- 
 liver that' day from the sub-treasurer to anybody else ? — No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect any verbal message that you were ordered to 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 431 
 
 bring back during that day, or the day before, from any of those per- 
 sons whom you have named 1 — A. Yes, sir ; one or two. 
 
 Q. State them 1 — A. When I gave the letter they would send word 
 back to say that it was all right. That was the general message. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect anything else that was sent back as an answer 
 aside from that ? — ^A. No, sir, 
 
 Q. Were any of those messages on open slips of paper 1 — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you know anything about the contents of those messages ? — 
 A. I cannot say as to that day, but on several occasions, when I have 
 taken messages to two or three of these persons, they would call- the 
 boy to give them the gold rates. 
 
 Q. Did that occur on the day of the breakdown in gold? — A. Yes, 
 sir, in one case ; that was in H. W. Perkins's. I saw Mr. Perkins put 
 it down in his own handwriting, put it into an envelope, and hand it to 
 me. 
 
 Q. When did you carry messages from General Butterfleld to Mr. 
 Fisk? — A. I should say it was a week or two before the 24th. 
 
 Q. Did you carry back any message in return ? — A. Generally to state 
 that it was all right ; that he would attend to it. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Do you know Mr. Gould ? — A. Not personally. 
 
 Q. Did you carry any message to him from Butterfleld? — A. I carried 
 it to the firm of Smith, Gould, Martin & Co. 
 
 Q. But to Mr. Gould himself personally ? — A. I cannot say positively, 
 but I think 1 brought a message to Mr. Gould. 
 
 To the Chairman: 
 1 cannot say whether I was in the building or not at the time the dis- 
 patch came in with that order to sell gold. I had gone out between 11 
 and 1 IJ o'clock with a message to Mr. Perkins, and another to J. W. 
 Seligman & Co., and when I came back there was quite a party in the 
 room, and I understood that a dispatch had arrived from Washington. 
 I was out between five and ten minutes ; not more than that, I should 
 
 Washington, February 7, 1870. 
 
 Atjgtjstxis L. Brown sworn and examined. 
 To the Chairman: 
 
 I reside in the city of New York. I am an attorney at law. I am a 
 member of the firm of Brown, Hall & Vanderpoel. I was appointed in 
 the month of September last temporary receiver of the Gold Exchange 
 Bank. I think my appointment was on the Friday following the gold 
 panic, which would be the 28th of September. I held my position about 
 two weeks ; my duties were, under the statutes, to take possession of 
 the property of the institution and to hold it, to await the order of the 
 court. I was temporary receiver, pending the hearing on an applica- 
 tion for a receiver. I was custodian of the assets of the bank, with all 
 the powers of receiver. I would have been authorized to go in and re- 
 ceive all the assets of the bank and retain them, subject to the order of 
 the court. 
 
 Question. Whatdidyoudoinpursuanceoftheorderof thecourt, under 
 the statutes relating to your duties ?— Answer. I immediately, on having 
 the order served on me, filed my bond to the amount of $10,000. That was 
 
432 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 the amount fixed in tlie order. It is very usual not to require a bond in 
 tlie case of a temporary receiver, but still in this case it was required. I 
 then immediately went to the institution, served the order on the offi- 
 cers, and gave notice to all the clerks in charge that they were only to 
 look to me, and as soon as possible, on the same day, went to work with 
 half a dozen assistants and made ah inventory of aU the property of the 
 bank. 
 
 Q. What did you find in the way of assets?— A. I took one or two of 
 the bank officials and two or three outside parties and made an inven- 
 tory of everything that was in the safe. There was a considerable 
 amount of gold and of gold certificates and of currency, and there were 
 some obligations of various kinds, in the safe. I made and filed an in- 
 ventory. I have not a copy of it. It is on file in the office of the clerk 
 of the supreme court. 
 
 Q. What else did yon do ? — ^A. I retained possession of the property. 
 I gave notice to all the parties who I could ascertain had money or prop- 
 erty of the institution that they must account to me. I called upon the 
 officers of the clearing-house, where it was said there was a large bal- 
 ance of several hundred thousand dollars due to the Gold Exchange 
 Bank, and I required them to farnish me with a statement of the amount. ' 
 I called upon one banking institution where the Gold Exchange Bank 
 had funds on hand and procured that amount. I was unwilling to leave 
 the amount in the safe, which would have compelled me to remain all 
 the time, and I had this inventory made. I took a portion of the gold 
 the next day and deposited it in the sub-treasury, taking for it the cer- 
 tificate of Mr. Butterfield, the assistant treasurer. The gold certificates, 
 to a very large amount — some two or three hundred thousand dollars— 
 I deposited with the United States Trust Company, and I put the cur- 
 rency and a portion of the coin in the Broadway Bank. My object was 
 to divide the property, and therefore I put it into three different places. 
 
 Q. Did you make any payments to the creditors of the bank? — A, Kot 
 a dollar. I did not feel myself authorized to do so. The- order under 
 which I was appointed was for the Gold Exchange Bank to show cause 
 on a certain day why a permanent receiver should not be appointed, 
 and meanwhile restraining the bank from acting, and appointing me 
 ad interim receiver. Soon after I was under weigh the question arose 
 whether or not the bank would be able to extricate itself, and the ser^ 
 vices of an expert, Mr. Jordan, were secured. He was, I think, the cash- 
 ier of the Fourth National Bank, which" was largely a creditor of the 
 Gold Exchange Bank, and therefore felt a great interest in extricating 
 it. Mr. Jordan came there and, at the request of the officers of the 
 Gold Exchange Bank, and with the consent of the plaintiff in the suit 
 wherein I had been appointed, I permitted him fall and free access to 
 aU the books and papers in the institution. I staid there in person, or 
 by some of my associates, by day and sometimes during the greater part 
 of the night, and all Sunday, so as to enable them, if possible, to get 
 an insight into the affairs of the institution, the object being, if they 
 were able to do so, to make application to have another order drawn 
 relieving me and placing Mr. Jordan as receiver, for the purpose of 
 enabling him to make settlements of these gold difficulties. I had no 
 authority to do it under the order appointing me, and it finally resulted 
 in that way. , 
 
 (Witness identifies copies of the following papers : A copy of the 
 order appointing him, marked A ; a copy of the inventory taken by 
 him, marked B ; ft copy of the order substituting Mr. Jordan in his 
 place, marked C ; Mr. Jordan's receipt to him, marked D ; and the 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 433 
 
 order discharging himself from the receivership and canceling his bond, 
 marked E.) 
 
 Q. State any preliminary conversations that were had with you before 
 your appointment as receiver by any of the parties concerned. — A. I 
 never knew of my appointment, and had no idea of it until the morning, 
 when I understood the order had been made, when Mr. Sterling, one of 
 the plaintiffs' attorneys, of the firm of Field & Shearman, called upon 
 me and stated that I was appointed receiver. It was with some hesita- 
 tion that I accepted it. That was the morning when I took possession. 
 Q. What amount of compensation did you receive for your services ? — 
 A. It was fixed by the court at $15,000. 
 
 Q. Was there any other allowance made to you for attorneys' or coun- 
 sel's fees ? — ^A. By the order, which I had no part in fixing, there was 
 an allowance of $5,000 made to my partner, Mr. Vanderpoel, as my 
 counsel, to guide me in my course. 
 
 Q. Did you have during that time the services of counsel ? — A. Con- 
 tinuously, by day and night. He was frequently with me through the 
 night. 1 was often at the bank until late hours. 
 
 Q. What was allowed for counsel's fees to the parties in the case ? — 
 A. I think they were each allowed $5,000. ' 
 
 Q. What service did the counsel for the bank and the counsel on the 
 other side render 1 — A. The preparation and service <5f papers, attend- 
 ance on various adjournments of the case, for it was adjourned on vari- 
 ous occasions from time to time ; then there were negotiations contin- 
 ually by day and night. 
 
 Q. Did you ever act as receiver before that time in any case ? — 
 A. Never. 
 
 Q. Were you consulted in regard to the compensation that was allowed 
 to you ? — A. On the evening when it was fixed I was consulted, and my 
 ideas were somewhat larger than the compensation fixed. The bank ' 
 officers suggested one sum, and I suggested another, and Mr. Vander- 
 poel, representing myself, and these gentlemen, after meeting together, 
 finally agreed to fix it at $15,000. I suppose that I could very properly 
 have got more by way of a percentage. I had actually in my hands, of 
 currency, about seven or eight hundred thousand dollars. I had claimed 
 possession of a large amount of money that was ia the clearing house, 
 and which I was negotiating to receive. Upon the system of percent- 
 age as allowed in such cases, I presume that my compensation should 
 be at least $25,000. That may seem extraordinary for so short a time, 
 but it was the only receivership I ever had in my life, and I do not pro- 
 pose to step out of my professional affairs to take a receivership at a 
 trifling compensation. 
 
 Q. Who were the plaintiffs in the petition for the receivership ? — 
 A. There were four or five actions. The first was brought by Mr. Os- 
 borne, and then other biUs were filed, and other suits seemed to pour in. 
 There came in three or four afterward, and in each of them the judge 
 continued my appointment — lapped it over ; in other words,.! was made 
 receiver in each case. I understand that there were applications to 
 make special receivers, but the judge refused to do so. 
 
 Q. Were the plaintiifs in these cases paid the amounts which they 
 claimed to be due to them ? — A. I really do not know any more than 
 what the order expresses. I complied with the order. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether that order was the result of an actual agree- 
 ment between the parties 1 — ^A. That I cannot say. I was very careful 
 in scrutinizing the order for my own protection. I found that it was 
 ■Consented to by the bank and by all the parties. 
 H. Rep. 31' 28 
 
434 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge that any of tlie parties concerned claimed 
 about that time, or immediately subsequent, that they had not been 
 consulted, and that they had not consented, and that that agreement 
 did not represent the facts ?— A.^ No, sir ; the point seemed to be this ; 
 The trouble seemed to be to enable the Gold Exchange Bank to settle 
 these gold contracts. I had no authority to do that under my order, 
 and the Gold Exchange Bank desired to get a receiver with power who 
 might go and adjust these cases. You wiU find that the order appoint 
 ing Mr. Jordan authorizes him to go on and settle those accounts, so as 
 to enable the bank to resume business. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether there was actually a hearing before any 
 court previously to the issuing of the order appointing Mr. Jordan ?— 
 A. I do not know anything about that. I suppose the parties attended 
 from time to time. They sent me notices of adjournments from time to 
 time. 
 
 Q. Was the court sitting in chambers ?-^ A. It was what they call 
 special term at chambers. The judge sits a month. A particular judge 
 is designated for a month, and comes on the first Monday in the month, 
 and sits till the first Monday in the next month. The judges are desig- 
 nated a year ahead. 
 
 Q. So that it is really an open court ? — A. Entirely. It could not be 
 an order out of court; it would have to be a court order. It is a special 
 term order. A judge has no authority to make such an order out of 
 court. It might be done, but it would have to be entered as a court 
 order. 
 
 Q. Did you see the judge during the days that you were receiver '?— 
 A. Never once. 
 
 Q. Were any suits brought against you as receiver 1 — ^A. There were 
 
 not. There was a good deal of trouble during that time. They were 
 
 ' issuing attachments against the bank, and there were people trying to 
 
 replevy property of the bank, and all the papers were served on me, 
 
 but I was not a part defendant in any suit. 
 
 Q. Did you bring any suit, as receiver, against any party? — A. I did 
 not. 
 
 Q. Were efforts made on the part of creditors of the bank to get pay 
 from you? — A. Yes, sir; very often they came to ask whether they 
 could have their accounts settled — ^these gold differences. 
 
 Q. Did you have any transactions with Messrs. Fisk and Gould, in 
 reference to the bank, during that time? — A. Never once. I do not 
 ^ think I saw them during the time. I know them very well. 
 
 Q. Had you any transactions with their attorneys or agents, Or any 
 one else acting for them, during that period ? — A. No, sir ; I was per- 
 fectly aware of my position, and was careful to keep myself strictly to 
 my duties. 
 
 Q. Do you know of any officer of the government of the United States 
 being interested in, or directly or indirectly concerned in, the movement 
 in gold in the month of September last ? — ^A. None at all. I know nothing 
 at all about it. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Was Mr. Jordan appointed receiver at the suggestion of any par- 
 ticular class of persons? — A. I think he was rather the representative of 
 the Gold Exchange Bank. He seemed to be in full accord with the ofii- 
 cers of that institution. It required, in order to arrange the differences, 
 that some financial man should go into the market and borrow gold. Mr. 
 Jordan was, in effect, one of their own men. I afforded him every facil- 
 
GOLD PANIC INYESTIGATION. 435 
 
 ity that I could, first taking care to get it in writing from all the parties 
 interested. 
 
 By Mr. Cobxten : 
 
 Q. Repeat your statement about the compensation allowed to you. — 
 A. The iirst suggestion of the bank was $10,000, and I suggested a 
 rather larger sum. The statute, I suppose, would have given me more; 
 it would have given me a percentage, and that percentage might go up 
 to five per cent. 
 
 Q. Not for a temporary receiver 1 — A. Therfe is no difference in that 
 respect, so far as fees are concerned. 
 
 Q. If a receiver did not see fit to continue, would he still be entitled 
 to the same fees as if he had gone on for a year ? — A. I do not mean to 
 say that, but I mean to say that, technically, I might have insisted upon 
 a percentage. If a man is appointed an executor or trustee of an estate 
 to-day, and enters upon the duties, and is to-morrow removed, or changed 
 in any way, I take it that he would be, technically, entitled to the 
 same statutory fees as if he had gone on with it. I received the whole 
 of the funds of the institution and paid them over, under the order of 
 the court. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Paid them to your successor? — A. Yes; and I paid portions of 
 them out tb the creditors. 
 
 Q. Did you make the disbursements ordered in the decree appointing 
 your successor, or did he make them ? — A. I made them. 
 
 Q. That is, you paid yourself and the attorneys and others under the 
 order ? — A. I not only paid those different fees, but I know of seventy 
 thousand odd dollars which I paid under the order of the court to one 
 party, and there was another item of over $200,000 which I paid. 
 
 Q. In other words, you turned over to your successor all the money 
 that you had received, Ifess the amounts which the order appointing him 
 directed you to deliver? — A. Exactly ; and it is expressly so stated ir 
 the receipt. 
 
 Washington, D. C, February 8, 1870. 
 
 J. A. Keebet sworn and examined. 
 To the Chairman: 
 
 I am a telegraph operator. I reside in the city of Washington. I 
 was a telegraph operator in the month of September last, in the employ- 
 ment of the Western Union Telegraph Company. I was engaged in the 
 main oflice in this city, on Fourteenth street and the avenue. 
 
 Q. State whether you transmitted a dispatch, near noon, on the 24th 
 September, from Secretary Boutwell to General Butterfield, assistant 
 treasurer at New York ? — A. I received such a dispatch from what we 
 call the city line, and handed it over to the clerk to re-check it, and had 
 it put on what is called the brokers' wire, which works into the brokers' 
 offlce at New York ; and I saw the message sent. 
 
 Q. What is your custom on the receipt of a message, in reference to 
 noting time ? — A. The rule is to put down the exact time when the mes- 
 sage commences; but the custom about this thing is : For instance, if I 
 sit down to receive what we call a pile of messages, I commence at a 
 certain hour and allow a minute for each message, not looking at the 
 clock for each. The time does not vary probably five minutes in an 
 hour in that way. 
 
436 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. How nearly can you testify to the accuracy of your marks gener- 
 ally ?— A. The only way would be by comparing other business that 
 was done at the same time. 
 
 Q. To what, person did you deliver the message to be re-checked ?— A. 
 When I received the message from the city line I was sitting opposite 
 the operator who was working on the brokers' wire. There had been a 
 number of messages about the price of gold, and I said here was a mes- 
 sage that would knock that thing— or some expression of that kind. 
 The moment I received it I called the attention of the clerk to it, and 
 he took it to number it on the book. Mr. Tinker was walking about at 
 the same time, and I told him that I had just received a very important 
 message from Mr. BoutweU. He and several others of us saw the mes- 
 sage put right through. 
 
 Q. How long do you suppose it was from the moment you began to 
 receive the jnessage until it was transmitted over the IJTew York wire ?— 
 A. It was probably two minutes from the time I commenced to receive 
 it till it was finished, and then, I suppose, it took one or two minntes 
 to get it re-checked. Then it was put on the top of some other bugi- - 
 ness and sent right ahead. I suppose it was probably five minutes 
 altogether. 
 
 Q. Who is the operator that sent it to E"ew York?— A. Mr. P. H. 
 Burns. 
 
 Q. Did you see him send it? — A. Yes. He went right on sending 
 what messages he had there till this one was ready to be sent. 
 
 Q. From the moment yon had the telegraph in your possession till 
 the moment you saw it sent could any person in that offlce have sent 
 the same news without your knowing it ? — A. Oh, yes ; it could have 
 been done. There are about twenty wires working to New York. I 
 showed the message to several operators there and talked about it, 
 S^eral of them knew of it. 
 
 Q. If it were sent, it was not more than a minute before the time that 
 it was regularly transmitted ? — A. Not more than a minute. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge that it was sent surreptitiously?— 
 A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you believe that it was ? — A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Were any operators near enough to your instrument tO hear the 
 news as you received it ? — A. I do not recollect any except the man who 
 was working the brokers' wire right opposite me. He could have heard 
 it if he had listened, but he was working with New York at the time, 
 and it is not probable that he paid attention to my instrument. 
 
 Q. Can a man understand both instruments at the same time ? — ^A. 
 He cannot. 
 
 Q. Can you send a message and at the same time be sending 
 another ? — A. No, sir ; I cannot do it. Some people pretend that they 
 can, but I never saw it done. I have seen operators take and send mes- 
 sages at the same time. I can do that myself. I can listen to a few 
 words of another instrument and keep on sending. 
 
 Q. Do you know how your clock at the main offtce compared with 
 the clock at the branch office that day ? — A. No, sir. Our clock is regu- 
 lated every day at noon by having the time telegraphed from the Naval 
 Observatory. I believe they get the "ball time" at the Treasury too. 
 
 Q. Does the brokers' wire oVer which that message was sent go to the 
 gold-room at New York ? — A. Yes, to the gold-room and several other 
 places. , > 
 
 Q. Could the operators hear that dispatch as sent over? — A. Cer- 
 
aOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 437 
 
 tainly ; not only the operators, but anybody who had been an operator 
 amd who was near by. 
 
 Q. Does an operator take an oath not to divulge messages ? — A. I 
 never took such an oath, and I have been an operator twelve or fifteen 
 years. It is a general understanding among telegraphers that nothing 
 is to be divulged. 
 
 WAsniNGTON, February 10, 1870. 
 EOBEET B. Oatheewood sworn and examined. 
 
 To the Chairman : 
 I reside at 313 East Thirtieth street, IJfew York. My place of busi- 
 ness is at 74 Broadway, New York. My general business is building 
 railroads and water- works and taking contracts. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Question. Are you acquainted with Mr. Corbin ? — Answer. I am. 
 
 Q. What relationship do you bear to him ? — ^A. My wife was the 
 daughter of Mr. Corbin's prior wife. He is called my father-in-law, but 
 he is only so by marriage. He is not my wife's father. 
 
 Q. Do you know General Butterfleld? — A. I do. 
 
 Q. Had you anything to do with the appointment of General Butter- 
 field to the post of assistant treasurer at New York ? — ^A. I had nothing 
 to do with his appointment. 
 
 Q. Did you assist in any way or bring any influence to bear in procur- 
 ing the appointment ? — A. No, sir ; I cannot say that I did. 
 
 Q. Did you attempt to bring any influence to bear ? — ^A. I suggested 
 to a friend of mine that it was the request of Mr. Corbin that General 
 Butterfleld should receive the appointment. I never had any conversar 
 tion on the subject with General Butterfleld. 
 
 Q. Who was that Mend of yours ? — ^A. Mr. Jay Gould. I merely 
 suggested that it was Mr. Corbin's suggestion that General Butterfleld 
 should be appointed. 
 
 Q. Mr. Corbin was the first that suggested to you Mr. Butterfield's 
 name ? — ^A. Yes. In a mere casual conversation that I had with Mr. 
 Gould I said that I had had a conversation with Mr. Corbin in reference 
 to the matter, and that Mr. Corbin thought that General Butterfleld 
 was the most competent man after myself. 1 had been talked of at the 
 time in reference to the position. I consulted with Mr. Corbin in refer- 
 ence to it, and declined to go any farther in the matter. 
 
 Q. What reason did you give Mr. Corbin for declining? — A. My 
 reason was frankly that the position was too confining for me, and that 
 I had too much other interest outside, and that, although the position 
 was an honorable one, I did not think the compensation would justify 
 me in surrendering my other business to take it. 
 
 Q. Whereupon Mr. Corbin suggested General Butterfleld? — ^A. Mr. 
 Corbin suggested General Butterfleld. I went to see General Butter- 
 field in regard to it, but he was not at home, and I left a card for him 
 stating that Mr. Corbin wanted to see him. That is aU that I know 
 about it. 
 
 f Q. Was there any conversation between yourself, Gould, and Corbin 
 as to the object of General Butterfield's appointment aside from his 
 official duties'? Was there anything said about gold or stock operations 
 in connection with the appointment ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What was the reason that Mr, Gould gave you for General Butter- 
 
438 GOLD PANIC INVESTISATION. 
 
 field's appointment?— A. I do not think that Mr. Gould was in favor of 
 General Butterfleld's appointment. He was desirous of myself or some 
 other person. Mr. Corbin had suggested it, and Mr. Gould had a great 
 deal of confidence in Mr. Corbin's judgment and his ability to assist any 
 friend in whom he took an interest, and of course Mr. Gould yielded to 
 him in that respect. 
 
 Q. Did you ever write any letters in reference to that matter to the 
 authorities here, or to any other person, to assist General Butterfleld's 
 appointmenf? — A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Tou say there was no speculation in gold or stocks ever contem- 
 plated in this arrangement for the appointment of Butterfleld ?— A, 
 There was no arrangement of that kind. , I afterward heard of things, 
 but I do not know of any myself. I never had any conversation with 
 any of them about it. 
 
 Q. After the appointment of Butterfield, did you have any conversa- 
 tion with Mr. Gould or Mr. Corbin or Mr. Butterfield in reference to 
 gold speculations'? — ^A. Not with General Butterfield; there were con- 
 versations with Gould and Corbin. 
 
 Q. Nothing in reference to putting up the price of gold ? — ^A. No sir. 
 
 Q. Was anything said by any of those parties about General Butter* 
 field using his official position for the purpose of helping gold specula^ 
 tions, either before the appointment or afterward"? — ^A. Mr. Corbin, 
 Mr. Gould, and myself had a conversation one day. It amounted to 
 this, that men could operate with safety when they were acting . on a 
 certainty — that is, when they knew what they were doing. There was 
 no understanding about anything ; it was a mere casual observation. 
 
 Q. Did they propose in that conversation any mode of ascertaining 
 what was certain about the movements of the government ? — A. Never 
 to me. I will state frankly in regard to that matter that, as soon as I 
 declined the appointment, I suggested Mr. Amos E. Eno, and it was 
 rejected. It was thought that General Butterfield was entitled to some 
 consideration, and that he was a better man. From that time forward, 
 1 was never talked to or consulted in the matter. i 
 
 Q. To whom did you suggest Mr. Eno's name ? — ^A. To Mr. Corbin. . 
 
 Q. Did you ever see any letters written by Mr. Corbin in reference to 
 that matter 1 — A. I never did. I got a little note from Mr. Corbin my- 
 self, in which he said that he had not seen General Butterfield yet. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Corbin wrote any letters in aid of Gen- 
 eral Butterfield's appointment 1 — A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Did you hear of it either from Butterfield, Corbin, or Gould ? — A. 
 Mr. Corbin told me himself that he had written to General Butterfield,' 
 and he read me a letter in reply from General Butterfield, in which 
 General Butterfield thanked him very kindly, and hoped Mr. Corbin 
 would exercise his influence as he had previously done ; that he was 
 under many obligations to him, and that he hoped he would be success- 
 ful. That was about the tenor of the letter as Mr. Corbin read it to me. 
 
 Q. Was a proposition ever made to you to take this office with a view 
 to assisting in speculation; and did you ever decline peremptorily 
 because you could not assist in any such object ? — ^A. Not so emphati- 
 cally as that. 
 
 Q. Put it in your own language. — A. After I was solicited to accept 
 this office, and had the matter under debate, I went the next day to 
 have a conversation with Mr. Gould and Mr. Corbin, and I found that the 
 remark was simply this : that the parties could operate in a legitimate 
 way and make a great deal of money, and that aU could be benefited 
 by it in a legitimate manner. Nothing underhand or illegitimate. The 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 439 
 
 phrase used was " illegitimate manner." I satisfied myself that I could 
 not fill the bill. 
 
 Q. What did this illegitimate manner consist of? — A. I felt in this 
 way. I could not say that it was that, because I was not asked squarely 
 to do any thing ; but I took it for granted that it meant that. I did not 
 look at it in the same light that they did, and I just declined. 
 
 Q. State more distinctly what was this legitimate thing'? — ^A. I under- 
 stood that it was buying gold and stocks and bonds on a certainty of 
 the movements of the government in selling or not selling gold. 
 
 Q. If you can give the exact language of Gould and Oorbin to that 
 very i^oint, please do so ; and fix the date if you can. — A. It was along 
 in the latter "part of May or June, I think. I think I have got a letter 
 in my pocket from Mr. Corbin which will give me nearly the date. 
 
 (Witness refers to a note in his possession from Mr. Oorbin to himself, 
 dated June 4, 1869, in which the following passage occurs : " Will see 
 Mr. Gould about Jersey City railroad. Have not yet seen General 
 Butterfleld.") 
 
 Witness : " Jersey City railroad " is a cipher. It means the sub- 
 treasury. 
 
 Q. Who agreed on that cipher? — A. There was no agreement 
 about it. 
 
 Q. How did you understand it ? — A. I was so intimate with Mr. Corbin 
 that I understood it in a moment. 
 
 Q. Then Mr. Corbin never told you that when he wrote " Jersey City 
 railroad" he meant sub-treasury? — A. No, sir; but I knew the business 
 between Gould and him at that time. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Is it not true that Mr. Gould was building a railroad in Jersey 
 City, and that Corbin owns property over there, and that they had con- 
 stant business communication about the matter 1 — ^A. It is true that Mr. 
 Corbin owns a great deal of property in Hudson City, not Jersey City. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 Q. Yon knew the business of these two parties so well that you 
 understood " Jersey City railroad" to mean " sub-treasury?" — A. That 
 is the impression I got of it at once. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. In after-conversation with Mr. Corbin, did you understand him to 
 have meant that ? — A. I did not ask him whether he meant sub-treasury 
 or not. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. You say you understood the business between Gould and Corbin 
 well enough to know that this Jersey City railroad meant the sub- 
 treasury ? — A. That is my interpretation. I may be right and I may be 
 wrong. I do not know that Mr. Corbin ever said so before or after- 
 ward. 
 
 Q. Hare you stated all that passed between Mr. Corbin and yourself, 
 Mr. Gould and yourself, and General Butterfleld and yourself, in respect 
 to this business of the sub-treasury ? — A. I think so. We had a good 
 many conversations about that time, but, as I stated, they have passed 
 out of my mind. I do not recollect anything else now. 
 
 Q. Was there any mode agreed upon to influence the administration 
 to appoint General Butterfleld 1 — A. Nothing more than that Mr. Cor- 
 bin stated that General Butterfleld had done a great deal of service 
 
440 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 during the war, and lie felt he was entitled to some consideration ; that 
 he had been disappointed in respect to one or two appointments of other 
 kinds ; that he was a suitable man, and had some right to ask for it; that 
 he had been a great Mend of President Grant. 
 
 Q. His military record, then, was one of the modes agreed upon to 
 influence the President ?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Were there any other influences brought to bear upon the Presi- 
 dent, so far as you know ?— A. I do not know of any other. 
 
 Q. You do not know whether influence was obtained from bankers, 
 brokers, and other people?— A. I know nothing of that sort. 
 
 Q. Was any petition got up by Mr. Oorbin for the purpose of appoint- 
 ing General Butterfleld, so far as you know ?— A. Not that I know of. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Oorbin tell you that he could assure the appointment of 
 General Butterfleld ?— A. He did. He told me he had got it ; that is, 
 he told me about the time that it was arranged. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Did he tell you that the President had agreed to give the appoint- 
 ment to General Butterfleld, or to such person as he (Oorbin) might 
 recommend 1 — A. I cannot tell you exactly what he said. The Presi- 
 dent used to be at his house a good deal. He told me afterward that 
 he had it arranged and settled ; that Mr. Polger had been withdrawn. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. In any of these conversations was anything said about General 
 Butterfleld having raised a large subscription to purchase General 
 Grant's house from him ? 
 
 (Question objected to by a member of the committee. Witness di- 
 rected to withdraw from the room. After consultation by the commit- 
 tee the witness was again called, and the following question put to 
 him:) 
 
 Q. Were there any other influences talked of in these various conver- 
 sations between these parties (Gould, Oorbin, and Butterfleld) for the 
 purpose of inducing the aijpointment of General Butterfleld to the sub- 
 treasury 1 If so, what were they ? — ^A. Mr. Oorbin and mySelf had fre- 
 quent conversations in regard to how he would carry this point. Gen- 
 eral Butterfleld and myself never had any conversation at all ; but Mr. 
 Oorbin and myself, and Mr. Gould and myself, particularly Mr. Oorbin 
 and myself, had conversations on the subject. I was at Mr. Corbin's 
 house nearly every morning and evening, and we had several conversa- 
 tions in regard to the appointment of General Butterfleld. Mr. Oorbin 
 claimed that General Butterfleld was entitled, as I said before, to the 
 position from his record ; that he had done a great deal for the admin- 
 istration ; that he had taken a very active part in getting up a subscrip- 
 tion for a house, &c. ; that he was a warm friend and advocate of the 
 administration, and under these circumstances would be entitled to 
 consideration and weight. Mr. Oorbin likewise told me that he would 
 see A. T. Stewart. He told me afterward that General Butterfleld had 
 seen Mr. Stewart, and that Mr. Stewart had taken an interest in his 
 appointment. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : \ 
 
 Q. Subscription for what house ? — A. For the house on I street, here 
 in Washington, which was first purchased of Mr. Oorbin fot General 
 Grant, and afterward for General Sherman. 
 
 By the Ohaieman : \ 
 
 Q. One of the witnesses states that, when General Butterfleld was 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 441 
 
 nominated, Catlierwood said that General Butterfield would give such 
 information as from time to time came into his hands, by which prior 
 information they could make money, and that this information came to 
 him from General Butterfield and from Mr. Gatherwood ; did you ever 
 state the substance of that to any person ? — A. As I have previously 
 stated, General Butterfield and I never had a conversation in the world 
 personally upon that subject, and nothing of this kind, therefore, ever 
 occurred personally between General Butterfield and myself. There 
 was afterward some conversation in regard to operations with certain 
 parties ; that is to say, Mr. Gouldj Mr. Corbin, myself, and some other 
 associates had an understanding that we would go into some operations, 
 such as the purchase of gold, stocks, &c., and that we would share and 
 share alike, dividing the purchase into fourths in respect to our profits 
 and losses. 
 
 Q. These parties were Gould, Corbin, and Catherwood — who else 1 — 
 A. I do not know who the other parties were. They were to be taken 
 care of by Mr. Gould, as I understood. They were presumed to be cap- 
 italists who were friends of his. It was all to be done through one 
 source ; that is, there was to be but one purchaser in the market, so as 
 not to create the excitement of opposition. 
 
 Q. About what time was this conversation? — A. About the latter part 
 of May or the first part of June. 
 
 . Q. How much gold was bought in pursuance of that arrangement I — 
 A. I do not know of a dollar's worth. I will simply state that I declined 
 to go into this sub-treasury business from that time and afterward, for 
 reasons which it is not necessary for me to state. I never was consulted 
 or talked with about it. 
 
 By Mr. Jtjdd : 
 
 Q. Was this conversation preceding or before the time you were talked 
 of for the sub-treasury ? — A. It was about that time. 
 
 Q. Can you state whethet it was preceding the time when your name 
 was pending ? — ^A. I do not think it was, because my name was only 
 pending for oiie day. The next day I declined it. 
 
 Q. Can you tell us whether this conversation and arrangement wias 
 not preceding that one day ? — A. It was not ; I think it was within the 
 next day or two afterward, or along about that time. There was no 
 arrangement that would lead to any great excitement in the market. It 
 was on this basis, that there would be a stability of the money market 
 of sales of gold, &c., from which there was an assurance that we could 
 operate with safety. 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 
 Q. Did you ever express to any one your belief that General Butter- 
 field would give prior information to parties who would combine to buy 
 gold ? — A. I never did. 
 
 Q. Then was the statement I just referred to true or false ? — ^A. I have 
 no recollection of making any remarks to anybody on the subject. I 
 have studiously avoided .talking about this matter from beginning to 
 end. 
 
 Q. Did you ever have any conversation upon the subject of these occur- 
 rences witii a Mr. Barksdale?— A. No, sir. Mr. Barksdale was, I believe, 
 a reporter for the Sun at that time, and the only conversatiop was this : 
 He came to my house the day I was to have started for Washington, but 
 was unable to get off in consequence of the freshet. He sent up his card 
 as Mr. Barksdale. The name, as I read it, was similar to that of an 
 
442 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 architect who was constructing a house for me, and whose card I sup- 
 posed it was. I found, however, on seeing him that it was this reporter 
 for the Sun, who said he had come around at the request of Mr. Dana, 
 of the Sun. I asked him if he would step into the library. I commenced 
 talking about the weather and various matters, when he, seeing that I 
 was driving away from the subject he had come to talk about, said he 
 had come to ask me something about the affairs of Mr. Oorbin, &c. I 
 said to him, that with all due respect to him, Mr. Dana, and to the press 
 generally, I wished him to understand that I had nothing to say to him 
 or to any outside party about the matter ; that if he had come to talk 
 about gold, or about Mr. Gould, he might stay there till noon ; that he 
 never would get any reply from me in any shape or form ; neither did 
 he while he remained in my house. After staying for half an hour, he 
 remarked as he went out, that if Mr. Corbin had acted as I had done 
 there would have been no trouble about the matter, and that he hoped 
 1 would treat other reporters in the way I had treated him. I told him 
 1 had no other information to give, and I gave him no other information 
 whatever. He has since called at my oflce frequently. My office is 
 right opposite that of the Cuban Junta, for which, as I understand, he 
 is the reporter. In these visits he has had several conversations with 
 my brothers, but I have never conveyed to him any information what- 
 ever. 
 
 Q. Are you known as Colonel Catherwood ? — A. No, sir ; I am not. 
 I have three brothers who were colonels in the war. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. Are you the gentleman who has charge of the.Brooklyn water- 
 works as engineer ? — A. No ; I had charge of the water- works at In- 
 dianapolis, and of buildiilg a railroad in Brooklyn. 
 
 Q. Did you ever state to Mr. Barksdale that you were spoken to for 
 the sub-treasury prior to the appointment of Butterlield, but that you 
 declined to fill the entire bill ? — A. I may have said in conversation with 
 my brothers that I was solicited to apply for the appointment of sub- 
 treasury before General Butterfleld was appointed, but as for telling Mr, 
 Barksdale or anybody that any such arrangement was proposed, nothing 
 of that kind ever passed my lips. 
 
 Q. Did you state that General Butterfleld had ever entered into any 
 such arrangements? — A. No ; that is unqualifiedly a mistake. Mr. Barks- 
 dale came into my office the other day and told my brother that General 
 Butterfleld was down upon me ; that he had vilifled me in the most 
 abusive manner. My brother was thunderstruck at hearing that such 
 should be the case ; and when he told me what remarks Barksdale had 
 said 'Gener^fl Butterfleld had made, I said it was very strange in General 
 Butterfleld to talk in that way about me, Avhen I had sustained him to 
 the fullest extent. I had, however, said in a conversation with General 
 Butterfleld that he was a great fool to resign ; that he should have 
 fought it through to the end. That is the only conversation I had 
 with General Butterfleld on this subject. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. I do not understand your statement about this arrangement in 
 which the profits were to be divided into four parts ; do I understand 
 that that arrangement was made between jj-ourself, Mr. Corbin, and Mr. 
 Gould ? — A. Yes ; the arrangement was made verbally, although Mr. 
 Corbin asked to have it put in writing. 
 
 Q. At what time was that ? — A. It was early in June. The matter 
 was settled about the appointment of General Butterfleld before his 
 
GOLD PANIC INTESTIGATION. 443 
 
 atppointment was made ; that is to say, Mr. Corbin gave me to under- 
 stand so. So far as any participation on the part of President Grant in 
 these matters is concerned, I never opened my lips to him on the sub- 
 ject, or he to me, and I have no idea that he knew anything more about 
 this affair than you gentlemen sitting here. 
 
 Q. You were to get one-fourth ? — A. Yes ; and Mr. Oorbin was to get 
 one-fourth ; Jay Gould was to get one-fourth, and some of his friends the 
 other fourth. Who his friends were I do not know. 
 
 Q. Was it mentioned that the other fourth was to be given to the 
 friends of Jay Gould ? what was done in pursuance of that agreement or 
 arrangement? did you have any conference with Mr. Oorbin or other 
 parties in reference to it 1 — A. I had several conferences with Mr. Corbiii, 
 but they resulted in nothing. Mr. Oorbin stated that there was nothing 
 done ; that the arrangement was a failure all round ; that there had not 
 been a dollar of gold bought at all. This was along in the latter part of 
 June and July. I told Mr. Oorbin I thought it was a little strange ; that 
 I had heard reports that these parties were speculating in gold and stocks, 
 and that I thought there was something going on ; but Mr- Oorbin re- 
 plied that nothing was going on at all. 
 
 : Q. Did you ever have any conversation with Mr. Oorbin about the 
 profits he received from operations in gold ?-r-A. I have since this blow 
 up. I went to see him, and told him what Mr. Gould had said to me 
 about it, and his reasons for leaving me out of the arrangement; what 
 his losses were, &c. I knew nothiug about the transaction, except what 
 I heard outside, from the time General Butterfleld was appointed, and 
 have never consulted with him (Butterfleld) except the one conversa- 
 tion before referred to. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Oorbin ever tell you that he had purchased gold for the 
 President's wife, or any of his family 1 — A. I cannot say that he did tell 
 me in those plain words. 
 
 Q. Did he ever intimate it to you ? — ^A. He intimated to me that he 
 had made a purchase of some bonds. 
 
 Q. For whom ?— A. I think he said for himself and Mrs. Grant. 
 
 Q. What do you mean by "intimated?" — ^A. He said in plain English 
 that he had bought bonds. 'B.e said nothing about gold. 
 
 Q. Did he give you any reason why he had purchased these bonds for 
 Mrs. Grant? — A. He told me that Mrs. Grant or the President had a 
 few thousand dollars, the balance, I believe, of the sale of their house, 
 or something of that kind, and that she got him to use it in what way 
 he thought best; that he had a notion to put it into real estate at Hud- 
 son Oity, but flnally purchased some securities for her, as he. would for 
 anybody else. That was his reply to me; nothing else. 
 
 Q. Do you know anything in reference to the letter that was written 
 by Mr. Oorbin to the President while he was at Washington, Pennsyl- 
 vania? — ^A. I know he told me he had written a letter, but I never saw. 
 
 it- 
 
 Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, of any ofi&cer of the govern- 
 ment in Washington, New Tork, or elsewhere, having been interested, 
 directly or indirectly, in the purchase or sale of gold in connection with 
 the panic in September last?-T-A. I do not. 
 
 By Mr. JoNES: 
 Q. Have you any reason to believe any such transaction took place in 
 regard to any of the officers of the government or their families f 
 (Question objected to by a member of the committee on the ground 
 
444 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 that the witness may give any facts within his knowledge, but may not 
 make statements from hearsay. Objection sustained by the committee.) 
 
 By the Chairman: 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of your own that any member of the 
 family of any ofilcer of the government was interested in the purchase 
 or sale of gold in September last?— A. Outside of Mr. Corbin I have no 
 such knowledge. 
 
 Washington, February 10, 1870. 
 HoBACE PoETER sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Ghaieman : 
 
 Question. State your position. — Answer. I am now serving as private 
 secretary to the President. 
 
 Q. Were you serving in that capacity in September last? — A. I was- 
 
 Q. State to the committee whether you received a letter from Mr. 
 Corbin while you were at Washington, Pennsylvania, toward the mid- 
 dle of September last?— A. I did, about the 18th or 19th or 20th of 
 September. 
 
 Q. State the circumstances of the reception of that letter, and the sub- 
 stance of it, as nearly as you recollect; and state in the same connection 
 whether, to your knowledge, General Grant received a letter by the 
 same messenger; and state whatever you know concerning both let- 
 ters. — A. While we were stopping at Washington, Pennsylvania, the 
 President and I were engaged one morning playing a game of croquet 
 in the yard. I was told that there was a gentleman there who wanted 
 to see me, and I sent him word to wait tUl we had finished the game. 
 I then walked into the parlor, the President taking a seat on the porch 
 near the window. A gentleman in the room handed me a letter, which I 
 opened. It was to this effect: 
 
 Nisw York, (I forget the date.) 
 The bearer has a letter, Tihich he desires to deliver to the President. Please afford 
 Mm an opportunity of doing so. * 
 
 A. E. COEBIN. 
 
 I called to the President, and he stepped into the parlor, and a letter 
 was handed to him by this messenger. The President walked out, I 
 think, on the stoop reading it, and in a few minutes I walked out in 
 another direction. When I returned the messenger was still sittjng in 
 the parlor alone. He addressed a few words to me about the weather. 
 A few moments afterward the President returned, and this gentleman 
 arose, hesitated a moment, and said, "Any reply?" or "Anything far- 
 ther?" The President said, "3>ro answer," and the messenger started 
 off, got into a buggy and drove away. I said to the President, "Who 
 isthabman?" He said, "I do not know; why?" I said, "I merely 
 asked on account of the peculiarity of the letter of introduction which 
 he brought to me; his name is not mentioned in it." He said, "Letter 
 of introduction from whom ?" I replied, " From Mr. Corbin, of New 
 York." He said, "Is that messenger from New York?" I said, "He 
 appears to be." He seemed quite surprised and silent for a few mo- 
 ments, and then, and in some subsequent conversation, he gave me 
 the impression that he supposed this man was a messenger from the 
 post of&ce who had merely brought the maU up. It had been custom- 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 445 
 
 ary for the postmaster himself, or one of his clerks, to bring the mail 
 to the President, and deliver it in person. 
 
 Q. In what the President said to the messenger, did you understand 
 that the messenger asked anything in regard to the contents of the 
 letter? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Is the letter which you received in existence? — A. It is not; it 
 was an ordinary note, which I tore up the moment afterward. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether the letter addressed to the President is in 
 existence or not? — A. My understanding is that it is not; it was de- 
 stroyed at the time. 
 
 Q. State what is the habit of the President in that respect; whether 
 he is in the habit of destroying letters addressed to Mm or not. — ^A. He 
 destroys a great many, all that are not of importance for the files. 
 
 Q. Do you keep his flies ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. If that letter were in existence would you have knowledge of it? — 
 A. It would be in my custody, in all probability. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge of the contents of the letter addressed 
 to the President? — A. It has been a frequent matter of conversation 
 between the President, myself, and Mrs. Grant, and they have spoken 
 of it. I did not read the letter myself. 
 
 Q. What was said about the time of its reception concerning the let- 
 ter and proposed response to it? — A. I heard nothing said at that time. 
 
 Q. Have you stated substantially all the contents of your letter from 
 Mr. Oorbin? — A. Verbatim, as nearly as I can recollect. 
 
 Q. Was there any allusion in it to gold, or to speculations in gold? — ^A. 
 None, whatever; it was merely a letter of introduction. 
 
 Q. How soon after the reception of these letters did j'ourself and the 
 President and party leave for this city? — A. We left, I think, on the 
 21st; and I should suppose that this was about two days before we left. 
 
 Q. Did you receivCj while there at Washington, Pennsylvania, any 
 communication from either Jay Gould or Fisk in regard to gold ; if so, 
 state what ? — ^A. Yes ; I received a letter in this way : A few days after 
 we reached Washington, Pennsylvania, I received a package of mail 
 matter from Mr. Corbin, at whose house we had been staying at New 
 York, and who had been directed to forward to us any mail that might 
 arrive after we left. In the package was a half sheet of note paper, 
 not sealed, which read, as nearly as I recollect, in these words : " Pur- 
 chased to-day $500,000 of gold, at such a price, (which I now forget,) 
 which will be placed to the credit of General Porter." This was dated 
 about the 13th or 14th of September. I do not think that the place was 
 mentioned. It was not addressed to any person, and was signed " Jay 
 Gould." 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q, Was there any explanation of it at all? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was there no letter from Mr. Corbin, or anybody else, explaining 
 it?— A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. To whom was it directed ? — A. It was not directed to any one. It 
 was just a memorandum signed "Jay Gould." 
 
 Q. Is that in existence ? — ^A. It is not, to the best of my recollection. 
 I intended to keep it, and put it in a trunk, but in traveling about a 
 couple of months afterward I made search for it, and I have since made 
 thorough search for it, and could not find it. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. State what response, if any, you made to that communication ? — 
 A. As much as I was annoyed at the idea of being drawn into a cor- 
 
44'6 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATIOK. 
 
 respondence on sucli a subject, I feared that if goldhad been purchased for 
 me in New York my silence might be taken for consent. I wrote to Mr. 
 Gould that 1 had never authorized any one to buy gold for me, and I re- 
 quested that no such purchase should be made on my account. I am 
 an officer of the government, and cannot enter into any speculations 
 whatever. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Is that the same telegram that was in the papers under your name?— 
 A. I saw various versions of it, generally given as telegTams, but there 
 was no telegram -, it was a letter, and the communication that I received 
 was a letter or a memorandum. My reply was addressed to Jay Gould, 
 and sealed! 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Was the substance of that communication to you, and of your re- 
 sponse, published in the papers subsequently to that time ? — A. Yes. I 
 did not see a verbatim copy, that I recollect, in any of the papers, but 
 the substance of it was published. 
 
 Q. Did you receive any response to that letter of yours? — ^A. I never 
 heard of the subject since. 
 
 Q. Was that the conclusion of any correspondence on the subject ?— 
 A. That was the conclusion of the correspondence. 
 
 Q. Had you ever authorized Jay Gould, or any other person connected 
 with him, to purchase gold or stock for you ? — A. Never. 
 
 Q. Were you ever told by Mr. Corbin that he had purchased gold or 
 stock for you through Jay Gould and Fisk? — ^A. Never. Mr. Corbin 
 never made any allusion to me that induced me to believe that he was 
 connected with any speculations. 
 
 Q. Were you with the President at Long Branch? — A. Yes, sir, 
 
 Q. Do you recollect that an interview occurred between the President 
 and J. Fisk, jr., at Long Branch? — A. I have no knowledge of any 
 such interview, although it may have taken place without my knowledge, 
 as for a week or so I was staying at a cottage with a friend of mine, 
 while the President was staying at the Stetson House. 
 
 Q. (State to the committee whether you have any knowledge of a letter 
 being sent either to yourself or to the President, or to you for the Pres- 
 ident, from Mr. Cprbin, shortly before the breakdown in gold or shortly 
 after — a letter having some reference to the question of whether he was 
 engaged in speculation or not.-^A. But one letter was received from 
 Mr. Corbin after we returned to Washington City from Washingtony 
 Pennsylvania, and probably the only one that has been received since. 
 That was received on Saturday morning, the 25th of September. 
 
 Q. What was the substance of that letter, if you know it? — A. I only 
 know it from hearsay. It was saying that he was not engaged in any 
 speculation. I did not read the letter. 
 
 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Corbin visited Washing-ton on Sunday, 
 the 26th of September, the Sunday after the breakdown in gold? — ^A. 
 He did. 
 
 Q. Did you hear any conversation between him and the President in 
 reference to gold? if so, state to the committee what it was. — A. Yes.' 
 I was present at breakfast when he came down to breakfast. Mr. Cor- 
 bin, after the ordinary conversation, started to speak upon that subject 
 and commenced in this way: "There has been trouble since in New 
 York. A great many peoplti are ruined. The bulls and the bears have 
 both suffered very severely.'' The President turned round and said, "I 
 
GOLD PAUIC mVESTIGATIOir. 447 
 
 am not at all sorry to hear it, and I have no sympathy with gold gam- 
 blers." I think that that stopped the conversation, at least at that time. 
 
 Q. Did you hear anything further said upon that subject between 
 those parties? — A. Nothing at all that I recollect. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge that any officer of the government of 
 the United States, either at Washington or New York, was interested 
 in, or engaged in, the gold movement of September, 1869? — A. I have 
 not. 
 
 By Mr. PACKER : 
 
 ,Q. Did you mail that letter to Jay Gould? — ^A. I did. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. Have you made any search for the letter which came to the Presi- 
 dent at Washington, Pa ? — A. No, sir; my recollection is that it was 
 destroyed at the time. The question of search has never been men- 
 tioned. 
 
 By Mr. JONES: 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Jay Gould ever intimate to you in any way in the summer 
 that he would buy gold for you? — A. I saw Jay Gould twice or probably 
 three times in my life, and only once when he spoke on the subject of 
 gold operations. That was at Mr. Corbin's house. 
 
 Q. I wish to know whether he ever made a proposition to buy gold for 
 you, or intimated that he would do so ? — A. We spent a couple of days with 
 Mr. Oorbin on our way to Washington, Pennsylvania, from here. Prob- 
 ably the day before we left, or a couple of evenings before we left, the 
 ftesident, Mr. Corbra, Mr. Gould, and myself, were sitting in the room. 
 Persons going out, Mr. Gould and I were left alone in the room for a 
 few moments. He had been talking before about business matters, 
 about his railroad, describing the operations of it in quite an interesting 
 manner. He then spoke of his large operations in New York, and how 
 he purchased and sold a great many things. After some conversation 
 of that nature he said: "I purchase and sell immense sums of gold in 
 New York, and I have means of knowing just when gold is going up and 
 when it is going down, and I sell when it is going down and buy when 
 it is going up. Do you ever purchase or sell gold or stocks?" I said 
 I never did so. He said, "You had better let me get> you some gold; 
 gold is going to rise before long, and suppose I purchase some for you." 
 I said, "Mr. Gould, I have neither the inclination nor the means of pur- 
 chasing gold ; and if I had, I am an offtcer of the government and cannot 
 enter into anything that looks like speculation. It may be perfectly 
 proper for you to do it, but it would be a manifest impropriety for me to 
 doit?" We were then interrupted by somebody coming in. I think he 
 said that he could guarantee me against all loss, or something of that 
 nature. After I made this answer to him there was nothing further 
 said. The only impression left on my mind was, not one of any gold 
 combination, but that it was a proposition of a gentleman of large means 
 to do me a kindness, which he might have thought proper, but which I, 
 as an ofBcer of the government, thought to be manifestly improper. 
 
 Q. Did he say in that conversation that he had purchased gold for 
 anybody in connection with the President or Mr. Oorbin? — A. No, sir; 
 he did not mention such a thing. He said nothing to lead me to believe 
 that he was connected with any other person. 
 
 Q. Have you detailed the full conversation as you recollect it? — ^A. 
 Yes ; that is all that occurred on the subject. 
 
448 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 Q. Have you had any conversation with Mr. Gould since about iti— 
 A. I have never seen him since. 
 
 By Mr. Jones: 
 
 Q. You spoke of a conversation between the President, Gould, Corbin, 
 and yourself. What was the subject of that conversation? — ^A. I think 
 the conversation was carried on principally by Mr. Corbin. He was ad- 
 vocating the policy of letting gold be high so as to send grain abroad 
 and finally pave the way for lower gold. 
 
 Q. Was Mr. Gould advocating the same theory or policy? — A. I do 
 not recollect that while I was in the room he joined in the conversation. 
 He may have made some remarks. 
 
 Q. Did the President seem to assent to or differ from Mr. Corbin ?— 
 A. As is his usual custom, he made no reply at all. 
 
 Q. You spoke in reference to the letter received by the President at 
 Washington, Pennsylvania, and you said that that letter was destroyed 
 and that it was afterward the subject of several conversations between 
 yourself and the President and Mrs. Grant. What were their expres- 
 sions in relation to that letter ? — ^A. The substance of the remarks was 
 to this effect : The letter would have been like hundreds of other letters 
 received by the President, if it had* not been for the fact that it was 
 sent by a special messenger from New York to Washington, Pennsyl- 
 vania, the messenger having to take a carriage and ride some twenty- 
 eight miles from Pittsburg. This letter, sent in that way, urging a cer- 
 tain pohcy on the administration, taken in connection with some rumors 
 that had got into the newspapers at that time, as to Mr. Corbin having 
 become a great bull in gold, excited the President's suspicions, and he 
 believed that Mr. Corbin must have a peculiar interest in those specu- 
 lations ; that he was not actuated simply by a desire to see a certain 
 policy carried out for the benefit of the administration. Peeling in that 
 way, he suggested to Mrs. Grant what to say in a letter that she was 
 writing to Mrs. Corbin, 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. What did he suggest? — ^A. He .suggested to her to say that 
 rumors had reached her that Mr. Corbin was connected with specula^ 
 tors in New York, and that she hoped that if this was so, he would dis- 
 engage himself from them at once ; that he (the President) was vCry 
 much distressed at such rumors. She wrote a letter that evening, 
 which I did not see. That, I think, was the night after the messenger 
 arrived, and while we were still at Washington, Pennsylvania. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. In that conversation, did you hear Mrs. Grant say that any gold 
 had been bought for her, or that any propositions had been made to 
 buy gold for her ? — A. No, sir ; I frequently heard her say that there 
 was none. 
 
 Q. How did she happen to say that there was none ? — A. She said it 
 in the general discussion of this matter, and from it having come out in 
 the newspapers. 
 
 Q. She said that she had never authorized any one to purchase gold 
 for her, and that no one had ever made a proposition to purchase for 
 her?— A. Yes. 
 
 By Mr. Judd : 
 Q. This statement of Mrs. Grant was based on something charged 
 against her in the newspapers ? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
GDJil} PANIC IKVESTWATIOWi 44$ 
 
 Q. "Sou say that that letter sent to the Presidenfr, at Washington, 
 Pennsylvania, was destEoyed ?-^A. No ; I said that it was my under- 
 itandmg that it was. I 6&& not see it destroyed. 
 
 ^. Bow did) you arrive at that understanding ?^— A. The President 
 said it had been destroyed. 
 
 Q. Did" he say why f — ^A. No, sir ; I mentioned in my previous testr- 
 oaony that it is customary for Mm to destroy letters tiiat do not go. on 
 
 aie. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. Do, you know; wh^th^e? any ftumitiw^ st^tuary,^ or g^w-ga^ws, for 
 jlirwishiag the White House, was sent to the White House during the 
 Sftmm^r, unauthorized; If-rr A. There were som,e things sent there unau- 
 lh,4iffized, but through a mistaJke, which 1 will explain: Bro^pi ^ Spald- 
 pg, TRh,© are large jewelAES u^diey thi^ iKl^llopolitaii Hotel,, in New York, 
 were to settd over somte ornaments for the Wiiite Houge. Ms-.. Spalding 
 ]yjP9i^ was he^e, aiM^ Mrs. Grjant ordiered' some statuettes. He mistook 
 iji^ o^der to be for- s^atuafy,i ^nd ^& came with a quantity of statues. 
 The President came down into the vestibule in the morning, and tovkn^, 
 % number of men opening lairge boxes, and taking out statues. H«* ^^- 
 quired about it, and vf as told they had been, ordered. H^ sgiid it was ^ 
 H^^e, and he told 1^^^, m.en to. box them vp ^S^Wh SiO^ DiOt. to open 
 more. They were taken back to New York, 9,iid Mr. I^paldi^ sien,t 
 sim^ tWQnzes for ^he mantel-piwesj.\?hich were paid fiffiby the Gamniis- 
 mmev of Pv^blic Buildings, out of ihfi ^pp>r(^)riatiQ% and which are na\^ 
 m t^ White House, $hia was whe^^ ^hft Whit^ House was being fur- 
 nisjied last summer. That is all that I know on, that subject. Mv^ 
 ^p^(|ing brought the %tati;i^y l^imself , i^steac^ o| s:^;tuettes,, ^:ad it Tf as 
 ^ hiua that General Qra^jit addressed ^¥ese remai'kSk 
 
 By Mr. Packeb : 
 Q, Was this, order for statuettes made under an appropriation of 
 Ooagress? — A. It was; and after consultation, as I understood, 'with 
 the Commissioner of PubMo BuMdiugs,. 
 
 WASaiNOTON, Mbrtfovy 12, 1870. 
 MowBT S. Smith sworn and exami^ed : 
 
 To the Cbaibman : 
 
 I yesjde in Nf>^i? York Citjfk My oeeupation is telegrajiihing. I an 
 flftimeeted "with tbe Frain^^lin telegraph line, I h^ive charge of the 
 COffipany's office, at U Brcvad. Street, ^ew York. I was in charge of 
 th^t office on the 24th of September l^st. I ha^ general oversight of 
 the business, I was familja? with the doings osf the ©ffleej and its 
 records during that day. I know of a dispatch having been received oyer 
 the wiyes OH that day, ^om Sfpretaj^ BontwpJl, ad#r^S8ed to General 
 ButtCTfleld, assistant treasuren, That dispatch was received at 11,§ 
 Q^iock, New York time. I niean, that that was th^ time it was entered 
 on the delivery register \ief<ffe being put out by a messenger. Thftt ijSt 
 the time inajked upon it. ^ 
 
 Question. How long after the a?itnal receipt of the message oyer- the wire 
 TOtil th0 time that the entyy el 11.57 was mar^e4 upon itf-^Answer. It 
 wayM »ot have heen two fflisftles, I toofe the mes^ag'p pyseif ft(w the 
 
 H. Eep. 31 29 
 
450 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 operator to the copying-boy, and he made an impression of it in> s^, 
 two seconds. I then took it to the delivery department, and told the 
 delivery clerk to be careful and rush that lively. Said I, " Let me see 
 the boy that ia going to take it?" He showed me the boy. When the 
 dispatch was enveloped and ready for going out, which probably occu- 
 pied about two minutes from the time it was received, the boy started 
 with it. * 
 
 Q. Who put the time down upon the .message 1— A. The delivery 
 clerk, the man who is intrusted with all that business. 
 
 Q. Was the entry made from his watch or from the clock of thCj 
 oface ? — A. From the clock, right over his head. 
 
 Q. Did you receive from the assistant treasurer any acknowledgment 
 of its receipt ? — A. I presume so. We always do have the signature of 
 the receiver upon the boy's book. I cannot find the book of that month. 
 I looked for it and could not find it. The book now shown me is the 
 kind of book we use in the oflce for that purpose. I expect that the 
 book is sold. We usually keep those books about sixty days and then 
 they are carried to a store-house with old paper and stuff, and sold for 
 waste paper ; and I suppose that book must have gone with the rest 
 of it. 
 
 Q. Do you know how your clock agreed that 'day with the clock in 
 the sub-treasury? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. What time did you keep?— A. New York time. Benedict of Broad- 
 way keeps our clocks in order. 
 
 Q. What is the difference of time between Washington and New 
 York? — A. I believe, twelve minutes; and the difference between New 
 York and Boston is twelve minutes. The photograph now shown me 
 represents the black-board in the Boston gold-room on the 24th of Sep- 
 tember, showing the quotations as furnished from New York. I had 
 charge of that thing for nearly a year. The moment the quotation is 
 flashed from New York it is placed upon the board. This photograph 
 is gotten up by a man who was in charge there at the time. 
 
 Q. State whether the dispatch from the Secretary of the Treasury 
 would have been heard by the operator in Boston without being repeated 
 in New York ? — A. No, sir ; it would have to be repeated. 
 
 Q. How long does it ordinarily take a message to be sent from your 
 ofilce to the sub-treasury and delivered in the usual way ? — A. Our mes- 
 senger boys have special orders to go with that business in a tremen- 
 dous hurry, and when one of them gets a message for the sub-treasury 
 he runs the whole way. I think it should not take more than three min- 
 utes from the time the boy Ijeft the ofQce until the message is delivered. 
 The assistant treasurer shoidd have got that dispatch, certainly, by 
 twelve, or one or two minutes after twelve. There was a great crowd 
 upon the street that day, and it was very dififlcult for the boy to get 
 through, but still it should not have taken him more than five minutes. 
 
 (Witness presents a press copy of the original dispatch from Secretary 
 Boutwell to Mr. Butterfleld, which corresponds with that already in evi- 
 dence.) 
 
 Q. State whether, from your knowledge of the transaction in your 
 office, it was possible for the news of that dispatch to have gone out of 
 your office before the dispatch was regularly delivered at the sub- 
 treasury. — A. No, sir ; I do not think it possible. 
 
 Q. What wire was that dispatch sent over ? — ^A. We had one wire 
 upon which we do some brokers' business, but I took the precaution 
 during those days to take the brokers' offices off that wire, and to put 
 their business upon a separate wire, so that they would hear nothing in 
 their offlcns of wViaf-. was cnmina- or ffoinc. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 451 
 
 Q. With what offices was the -wire-over which this dispatch was sent 
 coanected? — A. The dispatch went through Baltimore and Philadelpliia. 
 
 Q. "Was it repeated in those cities?— A. No, sir; it came directly. 
 
 Q Could any operator anywhere on the line have heard that dispatch 
 except at the New York and Washington offices? — A. Yes; it could 
 have been heard at both the Baltimore and Philadelphia offices and at 
 another little office at LambertviUe, New Jersey, which we have for 
 testing purposes, but the operator is not there generally more than five 
 minutes a day. I know that I have hard ^v^ork enough to raise him 
 whenever I want to get him, except in the morning. 
 
 Q, What persons were in your office at the time this dispatch came? — 
 A. None but the operators ; they were there, of course. 
 
 Q. Did you, or any other person in your presence, mention the fact 
 of the receipt of the message and the substance of it ? — A. No, sir. I 
 also took particular notice of the operator who received the dispatch. I 
 knew him to be a very faithful man, but in case he might mention any- 
 thing I kept a strict eye upon him after the dispatch went out, and he 
 never left the table, and had no opportunity for communicating with 
 anybody without my, seeing him. 
 
 Q. Do you know at what time gold broke down in the New York gold 
 market? — A. This photograph of the black-board in the Boston gold- 
 room will show it ; the time given is New York time. 
 
 The following is copied from the photograph referred to : 
 
 11.53 160 
 
 "•" {iS 
 
 145 
 140 
 
 11.58 150 
 
 11.59 160 
 
 12.05 148 
 
 12.07 140 
 
 Down to 2.53 133f closed. 
 
 Q. State to the committee what the telegraphic arrangement is for 
 indicating the price of gold throughout the country.- — ^A. It is telegraphed 
 from the Gold Board in New York. So soon as a sale takes place a man 
 stationed at a little desk touches some electric keys ; that turns three 
 indicators in the gold-room, and is also connected with, perhaps, three 
 hundred indicators in the vicinity in brokers' offices and in telegraph 
 offices. We have one in our own office. Every change in the price of 
 gold is ticked out by the beU, and it tells these figures, indicating the 
 price ; they are moved by clock-work. A sale has not taken place a 
 moment before the price is known all around. I do not know how many 
 indicators there are in the United States, but I think there are three or 
 four hundred in New York, and twenty or thirty in Boston. 
 
 ,Q. What was the behavior of the gold indicator on that day, as to the 
 fluctuations in gold?— ^A. As gold advanced, of course our indicators 
 had to creep up with it, to show us the gold quotations, but the prices 
 jumped so rapidly that the indicators could not keep pace with the rise. 
 Each revolution shows a difference of one-eighth, and when gold jumps 
 two to three per cent, at a time, it takes a good many revolutions to 
 keep up with the advance. It did better on the rise in gold than it did 
 on the fall, for the rise was a "little more gradual than the fall. At all 
 events, the indicators did not fail until after the fall in gold. The 
 
 11.56 I : 
 
452 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 fall was so rapid that the indicators cotild not keep pace -with it, and the 
 wires were burned off by the electric current, so that w« had no more 
 gold indioatiofls for several days afterward. It took time to repair *the 
 indicators. They had put on so maeh battery that the Vires were 
 ibnrned with the electric current. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge that Hitiy officer of the government of 
 the United States was interested in, or in any way concerned in specu- 
 lations in gold in the month of September ? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 iBy Mr. Packer : 
 Q. You did not yourself deliver the message to the assistant treasurer? 
 — A. Noj sir. The supposition that I did arose out of the circumstance 
 that my chief operator in the office saw me take the message and rush 
 to the delivery office with it, and he thought I had igone with it to the 
 •sub-treasury, but I did not. 
 
 By the ChairSian : 
 Q. State whether you have any knowledge tha;t the wirfes of any tele- 
 graph lines between New York and Washington were tapped on that 
 occasion, so that this dispatch, or any dispatch on that day, was snrre!p- 
 titiou^ly taken possession of. — A. No, sir; I have no knowledgfe of the 
 kind, and it is my impression that the thing was hot done. 
 
 WashinGtgn, February 14, 1870. 
 W. Hargraye White sworn and examined. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 
 Q. Where do you reside ? — A. Washington City. 
 
 Q- What is your occupation ? — A. Bookseller. 
 
 Q. How long have you resided in Washington ?^^A. Twelve months. 
 
 Q. Where did you reside previously to coming here ?— A. In Freder- 
 icksburg, Virginia. I was born in Fredericksburg, and lived there 
 fifteen or twenty years. 
 
 Q. What was your occupation before you came to Washington?— A. 
 Bookseller. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. You delivered a letter to me this morning? — A. I did. 
 
 Q. State if the contents of that letter are true. 
 
 (Objected to by Mr. Judd, and objection sustained.) 
 
 Q. State in whose employment you were last fall. — A. In the empl(^- 
 ment of Coyle & Towers, booksellers. 
 
 Q. In what capacity were you there ?-^A. As book-keeper. 
 
 Q. Were you in the habit of going to the express office for them for 
 packages ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you ever receive their packages by express? — ^A. I did. 
 
 Q. At the store?— A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect when the gold panic was in New York ?— A. I 
 do not recollect the date; I recollect the fact. 
 
 Q. What month was it in? — ^A. I think it was in October or September. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect receiving any package about that time for Coyle 
 & Towers?— A. I do. 
 
 Q. State thfe circumstances connected with the reception of that 
 "|)ackage. 
 
 (Objected to by Mr. Judd, and objection sustained.) 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 453 
 
 Q. Did you see the receipt book for express packages ? — ^A. I did. 
 
 Q. Was it the money hook, as it is called? — A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Is that the technical word for it ? — ^A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. What does it contain ? — A. Simply the entry of money packages. 
 
 Q. Is that the book that yoa signed when you received the package ? — 
 A. Tes, sir. 
 
 ' Q. Did you enter your name there on receiving a package that day ? — 
 A. I did. 
 
 Q. Did you see any other entry in that book of a money package to 
 be delivered to any person on that day ? If so, describe what you saw. 
 
 (Objected to by Mr. Judd, because the book is the best evidence, and 
 it is not produced, and its aon-production is not accounted for. 
 
 Objection sustaiaed by the committee by a vote of 7 to 2.) 
 
 By the Ohaiemajst : 
 
 Q. Tou say that j'ou receipted for a money package. From whom was 
 it received ? — A. I do not know. 
 
 ,Q. To whom was it addressed? — A. Coyle & Towers. 
 
 Q. What was the amount of money for which you receipted ? — A. I' 
 do not recollect. 
 
 Q. What month was it in ? — A. I cannot say. 
 
 Q. What year was it ? — ^A. Last year. 
 
 Q. What was the date at which you made that entry ? — ^A. I cannot 
 say. 
 
 Q. What time of the day was it; morning, noon, or night? — ^A. Morn- 
 ing. 
 
 Q. What day of the week ? — A. I have no recollection. 
 
 Q. Who brought the book to you? — A. The money clerk, or the ex- 
 press man, whose duty it was. I do not know his technical term or 
 name. 
 
 Q. Was he a person whom you had ever seen before ? — A. I cannot 
 say certainly. 
 
 Q. Was he a person whom you have ever seen since? — ^A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Would you know him now if you were to see him ? — ^A. I think not. 
 I Q. Was he a boy or a man ? — A. A man. 
 
 Q. Was he tall and had he whiskers? — ^A. He was tall and had 
 whiskers. That is my recollection, but I am not positive. 
 
 Q. What company was it that that man served ? — A. I cannot say 
 whether it was Harnden's or Adams's. \ They are both in the same 
 building. I did not observe the book. 
 
 Q. Did you not say in the letter which you addressed to Mr. Cox that 
 it was Adanls's express ?— A. I think I did. 
 
 Q. Was that statement correct or incorrect ? — A. I should rather it 
 was not taken as testimony, because I may bo mistaken as to its being 
 Adams's or Harnden's, 
 
 Q. Did yon talk to anybody in reference to that transaction? — ^A. I 
 mentioned it to one or two persons that I had seen this entry. 
 'Q. Who were they? — A. Mr. Coyle, of the firm, was one, and the 
 other was a young man who was clerk in the establishment. 
 
 Q. Is this letter in your handwriting? (Indicating the letter to Mr. 
 Cox.) — ^A. It is. 
 
 Q. Were you requested to send this letter to the committee ? — ^A. IJTot 
 specially. 
 
 Q. Were you generally ? Did anybody suggest to you to write to any 
 member of the committee ?— A. It was suggested. ^ 
 
 Q. By whom? 
 
454 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Witness. I prefer not to answer tliat question, for the simple reason 
 that I do not wish to bring any one into trouble. 
 Witness was directed to answer the question. 
 A. The Rev. Mr. Pitzer. 
 
 By Mr. Jxjdd : 
 Q. Who is he ?— A. A Presbyterian minister in this city. 
 Q. Where were you when he suggested that to you ? — A. At his house. 
 Q. How came he to suggest it to you?— A. That I cannot teU. 
 Q. Were you talking about it? — A. I was not. 
 
 Q. Whom else have you talked with about the propriety of your send- 
 ing such a letter ? — A. No one. 
 Q. When was it that Mr. Pitzer suggested it to you ?— A. Last night. 
 Q. Sunday night ? — A. Sunday night. 
 
 By the Ohaieman : 
 
 Q. Did you begin the conversation ? — ^A. I did not. 
 
 Q. Did he?— A. He did. 
 
 Q. Did he suggest the contents of the letter ? — A. He did not. 
 
 Q. How did he know anything about the matters of which you have 
 testified, so as to make a first suggestion? — A. I had spoken of it pre- 
 viously. 
 
 Q. When? — A. I do not recollect the date; but it was about the time 
 that the occurrence took place. 
 
 By Mr. JUDD : 
 
 Q. You had spoken of it to him ? — A. To him, as weU as I recoUect. 
 I am not positive. 
 
 Q. Where was this letter written ? — A. It was written at his house ; 
 at the house where he boards. 
 
 Q. Was he prese^it when you wrote it ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was he present when there was a draught made of it? — ^A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Was it submitted to him after you wrote it ? — ^A. Yes, sir. 
 
 Q. Did you talk over with him what should be the contents of the 
 letter before you wrote it ? — ^A. No, sir. I do not exactly understand 
 that question. 
 
 Q. Did you talk with Mr. Pitzer as to what you should write in the 
 letter? — A. It was his suggestion to me that I should write the letter, 
 and the contents were my own composition entirely. 
 
 Q. Where does Mr. Pitzer live?— A. At 604 P street. 
 
 Q. Has he charge of a congregation here ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. What congregation ? — A. The Central Presbyterian Church. 
 
 Q. How long has he been in charge of it ? — A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. How long have you known him ? — A. Only since I came here. 
 
 Q. Do you know where he came from here? — A. He came from Vir- 
 ginia. 
 
 Q. Do you know from his statement how long he has been in Wash- 
 ington ? — A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. Did you say that you were going to Missouri ? — ^A. Yes. 
 
 Q. With whom are you going there ? — A. I am going there with a 
 . lady ; simply to take charge of her. 
 
 Q. Are you going there to reside ? — A. I am. 
 
 Q. In what part of Missouri? — A. In the western part. 
 
 Q. How long did you say you have lived in Washington ? — A. Twelve 
 months. 
 
 Q. Immediately preceding the time that you came here, where had 
 you lived? — A. In Eichmond. 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 455 
 
 Q. Where were you during the war ? — A. In the South, in Eichmond. 
 
 Q. Were you in the service in any way ? — A. Not at all. 
 
 Q. You had no connection with it 1 — A. None whatever. 
 
 Q. In that conversation that you had with Mr. Pitzer did he say any- 
 thing of the importance of this being sent to the committee ? — A. He 
 thought it would be important. 
 
 Q. In what view? — A: I dq not know exactly. He did not state. 
 
 Q. Was there not any reason given for it? — A. Not that I recollect. 
 
 Q. Did Mr. Pitzer preach yesterday ? — A. Yes. 
 
 Q. Was it in the evening, or in the morning, or between services that 
 you had this conversation with him ? — A. It was after services. 
 
 Q. Can you teU us what time in the year it was that you saw this 
 receipt book ? — A. I cannot tell you positively. 
 
 Q. Was it as late as the 24th of October ? — A. I have no idea of the 
 date ; not the ranotest ; neither as to the day of the month nor of the 
 week. 
 
 Q. You have no idea whether it was September or October ? — ^A. No, 
 sir. 
 
 Q. Might it not have been as early as August ? — A. Oh, no, sir. 
 
 Q. Are you sure of that ? — A. I think not. 
 
 Q. Are you sure of it ? — A. Not certain. 
 
 43. Might it not have been as early as July ? — A. I have no idea. 
 
 Q. You are certain that it was in the last days of July, about the 
 24th ? — A. I am not sure of the date at all. 
 
 Q. Are you as sure that it was in July as you are that it was not in 
 October ? — A. I am not certain as to what month it was at all. 
 
 Q. Might it possibly have been in June ? — A. I cannot say, 
 
 Q. Can you not come any nearer to it than from June to December ? — 
 A. No, sir ; from the simple fact that I was not interested in the affair 
 at tlie time it occurred. 
 
 Q. It seems that you told what you saw to a good many gentlemen ? — 
 A. I told two or three persons. 
 
 Q. But you cannot tell the oommittee whether it was in June or De- 
 cember, or between those times ? — A. I cannot tell what time it was. 
 
 Q. Do you mean to say that you do not recollect the month in which 
 it was ? — A. I do not recollect the month. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect the day of the week ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect the name of the inan who brougbt it ? — A. I never 
 knew his name. 
 
 Q. Do you recollect the name of the express company ? — A. I do not. 
 
 Q. Was he a white man or a black man who brought it ? — ^A. He was 
 white. 
 
 Q. Do you remember that? — A. Certainly. 
 
 Q. Did he have on a black coat or a white coat ? — ^A. I do not know. 
 
 Q. If you do not recollect the color of his coat, how do you recollect 
 the color of his face 1 — ^A. Because I know that there are no black men 
 employed for that purpose. 
 
 Q. Then you do not know it &om recollection, but because of the 
 mode of business of the company ; is that what you mean ? — A. It is 
 only in that way ; as far as I know there are none but white men em- 
 ployed in that capacity. 
 
 Q. Can you say, from your present recollection, that the man who 
 Carried it there was not a black man 1 — A. I cannot. 
 
 . By Mr. Cox : 
 Q. You have stated that this matter occurred about the time of the 
 
456 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 gold panic — black Friday ; how do you recollect that much of it ? — A. 
 Simply because that was the thing which caused me to notice the entry 
 upon the book. K it had not been for that I should not have noticed 
 the matter at all. 
 
 Q. You recollect the excitement about gold in New York ?— A. I do. 
 
 Q. And by that means you are enabled to recoUect this occurrence ?— 
 A. That is all. 
 
 Q. Was it before or after the gold panic?— A. It was after. 
 
 B^ Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Are you quite certain about that ? — A, J am quite certain, so far 
 as I can say. 
 
 By Mr. Jtidd : 
 
 Q. How long after ? — A. I cannot say. 
 
 Q. Have you not any idea? — A. Probably it may have been a week 
 or ten days ; something like that. 
 
 Q. What is your best recollection about it ? — A. I would not under- 
 take to fix a date. 
 
 Q. May it have been thirty days afterward ? — ^A. Possibly. 
 
 Q. May it have been sixty days afterward^ — ^A. I think it hardly 
 probable that it was so long as that. 
 
 Q. Was it nearer sixty than thirty ? — ^A. I cannot say. The only idea 
 I have is that it was after the panic, probably eight or ten days. 
 
 Q. And it may have been thirty days ? — ^A. It may have beeil thirty 
 days. 
 
 Q. And it may. have been forty-five days ? — A. Possibly. 
 
 Q. And possibly sixty days ? — A. Possibly, but hardly probable. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Do you remember whether there was still excitement in Washing- 
 ton about the gold panic ? — A. It was talked of in the papers at the 
 time. 
 
 Q. Was it talked of in the street 1 — A. I do not know. My deafliess ' 
 prevents me conversing much. 
 
 By Mr. BtJRCHARD : 
 
 Q. When did you leave the employment of Coyle & Towers ? — A. In 
 December; I think the 27th. That is, the concern failed, and was 
 closed up by the sheriff on that day. 
 
 Q. Did you receipt for any other express packages ? — A. None but 
 that one. 
 
 Q. That you receipted for in your own handwriting ^-^A. In my own 
 handwriting. 
 
 By the Chaikman : 
 
 Q. Did you sign your name or the firm's name ? — ^A. My name. 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Did you take this express book into your hand ? — A. I did not. 
 
 Q. How did you receipt it ? — A. It lay on the counter before me, and 
 I simply wrote my name. 
 
 Q. And you saw other entries ? — ^A. I did. 
 
 Q. What other entries did you see ? 
 
 (Objected to by Mr. Judd, and objection sustained.) 
 
 By the ChaiemAN : 
 Q. How many pages of the express book did you see ? — A. 'None 
 other than the one which lay open. 
 
 I 
 
eOIiD PtolC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 un 
 
 By Mr. Lynch : 
 
 Q. Did yoTi say that you do not know anything about the amoimt of 
 money that you receipted for ? — A. I do not. 
 Q. ¥ou counted it to see that it was right ? — ^A. Yes. 
 •Q. Was it as much as one hundred dollars ? — ^A. I cannot say. 
 Q. Was it One thousand dollars ?— A. It was certainly not that much. 
 Q. And you have no^^collection as to the amount ? — A. I have not. 
 Q. But you received it, and counted it and receipted for it?— A. Yes. 
 
 By Mr. Bubchabd : 
 
 Q. Did you make any entry on the caSh-book of the amount lihat you 
 received ?■*- A. Gertainty. 
 
 Q. In the cash-book or in the 'daybook?— A. I do not recollect. It 
 *a8]posted lip, of course. 
 
 By Mr. Jones: 
 Q. You say you are not certain whether it came from Adams's or 
 Harnden's ?-r-A. I am not positive. It was one or the other. 
 
 By the Chairman : 
 Q. Are they separate companies, that bring packages from a dis- 
 tance ? — ^A. I do not know positively. They have T)een heretofore. 
 
 WaKBING^oN, D. C, mbrmry 15, 1870. 
 
 Samuel M. Shoemaker sworn and examined. 
 To the 'Chairman : 
 
 I reside in Baltimore city. I am a'manager and owner Of the Adams 
 Express Company. I have been manager of that company for itwenty- 
 fsix years. 
 
 'Question. Dp.your fluties, as superintendent of the Express Company, 
 make you familiar with the affairs of the office in this city ?— Answer) 
 They do. 
 
 Q. Do you keep books of aU the transactions of the company ? — ^A. 
 ■There are books kept of all transactions. 
 
 Q. Have you a book known as the money receipt boo^ ? — ^A. Yes. 
 
 (Witness produces the money receipt books of the company in this 
 city, from July 22 to November 3, 1869, except those connected with the 
 Treasury Department, and is direeted'to examine for an entry of a money 
 package to Coyle & Towers, booksellers, Washington.) 
 
 Q. You have examined the books from the 24th September and you 
 find no such entry on the books ? — A. There is no such entry as Coyle & 
 Towers on the books. 
 
 Q. From the 24th September forward, on the books that you have 
 produced, is there- any entry of a money package addressed to Mrs. U. 
 8. Grant? — A. There is ; on October 25. I was mistaken. I find it this 
 moment. 
 
 Q. State what that entry (indicating the figures) is. — A. After careful 
 examination I am satisfied that it is $250. 
 
 :By Mr.'Cox: 
 Q. Append that entry to your testimony.— A. The entry is as follows: 
 
 'Description. 
 
 ettetaiiiisg. 
 
 WTiere&om. 
 
 Address. 
 
 OhfiTges. 
 
 Eeceipt. 
 
 IBk - 
 
 vaso 
 
 00 
 
 N.'Xork... 
 
 JMVh TT^ S (?ra^t -White HAnse 
 
 
 
 
 
 
458 
 
 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 Q. Is there any other entry on that page of a money package ad- 
 dressed ta Coyle & Towers ?— A. Yes ; the entry is as follows : 
 
 Description. 
 
 Containing. 
 
 Where from. 
 
 Address. 
 
 Charges. 
 
 Keceipt. 
 
 1 " 
 
 37 
 
 75 
 
 Balto 
 
 Covle & Towers 
 
 " 75c 
 
 W. H. White. 
 
 
 
 
 Q. "Who is the messenger that delivered these packages ? — A. Mr. J. 
 S. Dodge. 
 
 Q. Was not your impression at first that the figures in the entry of 
 the package for Mrs. TJ. S. Grant were $25,000, and did you not so state 
 to the committee ? — A. Yes. I would state, in explanation, that I had 
 been looking last night for a $25,000 entry. I have not slept much for 
 the last two weeks on account of the sickness of my child, so that I 
 was hardly fit to be here to-day. I am very nervous from loss of sleep, &c. 
 
 By Mr. Buechaed : 
 
 Q. Are valuable packages besides money entered on that book? — ^A. 
 
 Yes, sir ; they are. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 Q. Was there any other package sent to Mrs. Grant for three months 
 after the gold panic, that you know of 1 — A. Not to my knowledge. I 
 was entirely ignorant of this one until this morning. 
 
 By Mr. Cox : 
 
 Q. Is Harnden's Express combined with yours ?— A. Yes, sir. It was 
 closed about the 20th of June last. 
 
 By Mr. Cobukn : 
 Q. I see that the package is marked "free." Would you have carried 
 $25,000 free ? — A. No, sir. All small packages to General Grant are 
 carried free. 
 
 By Mr. Packee : 
 
 Q. If it had been $25,000 you would have charged regular rates?— 
 A. Yes. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge about this particular package, except as 
 an entry in the book ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Washington, D. C, February 15, 1870. 
 J. W. BUESON sworn and examined. 
 
 To the Chaieman : 
 
 I reside in Washington City. I am engaged in the office of Adams's 
 Express Company. During the months of September and October, 
 1869, I held the position of money clerk. 
 
 Question. What were your duties as money clerk?— Answer.. To 
 receive all moneys that came to the office ; moneys and small valuable 
 packages. ^ 
 
 Q. Examine the entry now shown you, (as copied in the testimony of 
 Mr. Shoemaker— the package for Mrs. U. S. Grant,) and state whether 
 
GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 459 
 
 you yourself made that entry? — A. I did not make the entry. It was 
 made by Mr. J. M. Croyeau. 
 
 Q. Are you familiar with the signature in the column of receipts ? — 
 A. I do not recollect ever to have seen it before. 
 
 Q. State to the committee, from your knowledge of this book, what 
 these nilings, under the head of ''containing," indicate? — A. The first 
 column is intended for dollars, and the other column for cents. 
 
 Q. What do those figures in that entry indicate ? — A. That entry is 
 one package, value $250, from New York, marked^ Mrs. U. S. Grant. 
 That "!» is not a free mark. It is the regular paid mark. There is 
 nothing in the entry to indicate whether it was free, or whether the 
 charge was paid in New York. 
 
 Q. State whether you have any recollection of that package? — ^A. I 
 have not. 
 
 By Mr. Cox: 
 
 Q. Is there any record of whom that package came from ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Would your books or way-bills show whom it came from? — A, 
 The way-bills probably would^ 
 
 Q. What person goes out with that book and delivers those pack- 
 ages ? — ^A. J. S. Dodge. He is in the employment of the company. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Have you knowledge of any other package sent to Mrs. Grant ? — 
 A. No particular knowledge. 
 
 Q. Have you any knowledge at all ? — A. I have seen small packages 
 going to Mrs. Grant at different times; no packages of any note, to my 
 knowledge. 
 
 By Mr. Jxjdd : 
 
 Q. Were these books kept under your supervision ? — ^A. Yes. 
 
 Q. They were in your custody ? — ^A. Yes. 
 
 Q. You know the character of the books, and what the figures entered 
 on them represent ? — ^A. I do. 
 
 Q. You have no doubt at all, that this entry means a package valued 
 at $250 ?— A. None whatever. 
 
 Q. Is there anything to indicate that this was a money package ? — ^A. 
 No, sir; on the contrary, I suppose it was not. 
 
 By Mr. Jones : 
 
 Q. Why do you suppose that it was not ? — ^A. Becadse it is marked 
 "V," for valued. Packages other than money packages are so marked. 
 
 Q. Are money packages always indicated by the absence of that 
 mark « V"?— A. Yes, sir. 
 
VIEWS OF THE MINORITY. 
 
 Mr. Cox, from the minority, presented the following: 
 
 The minority of the committee, while reserving the right freely to 
 comment upon the majority report, substantially concur with it in^its 
 clear, able, and succinct statement of the immediate "causes" which 
 produced the famous gold panic of Friday, September Sdth, last. 
 
 We forbear comment on the social, politieal, and economic causes, 
 incident to our peculiar currency, or to our two currencies — which af- 
 forded the opportunity to gold speculation. Xo one doubts that if the 
 constitutional currency of coin had remained to us, such panics would 
 have been and would now be impossible. It is a striking commentary 
 on bad fiscal government, that it was possible for men of great audacity 
 and unscrupulous motives, so to combine the means as to effect a rise in 
 gold, by which to attain great gains. However plausible or wise may 
 have been the theory irpon which the "conspirators" acted, and which 
 they succeeded in impressing upon the Executive, viz: that produce 
 would be enhanced, the railroads fully employed in its transportation 
 eastward, and its exportation increased ; nevertheless those who worked 
 this theory did it for their own aggrandizement. No more piolitic plan 
 could be devised for momentary gain. No more dangerous scheme was 
 ever invented for the injury of the people, if we look to the end, to the 
 bursting of the bubble and its reaction. It is an axiom, that the cost of 
 all such fluctuations is ultimately paid by the consumer of products. 
 
 Whatever may be its merits as a theory for transient and designing 
 purposes, it is certain that it allured the President of the United States 
 for a time. However much this theory may have influenced the Execu- 
 tive in his peculiar course, and in giving the interviews and directions 
 about gold sales, hereafter apparent, it is equally sure that the origin of 
 this conspiracy to raise the price of gold had in it a sinister and selfish 
 object. Whether that object was fully accomplished or not, we do not 
 care to know. We are investigating causes only. 
 
 ORIGIN OF PLOT. 
 
 But while this theory seems to have been the hinge on which this gold 
 speculation turned, it is also true that the egg of this conspiracy was 
 laid further back. It was hatched as early as the month of May or June. 
 If Catherwood tells the truth, the confederates were Corbin, Catherwood, 
 and Gould. Who was most prominent is no matter. They are equally 
 H. Eep. 31 30 
 
462 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 responsible for its inception. When Catherwood made his exit, if he is 
 to be credited, it was that Butterfleld should enter. The scheme had in 
 it, as the first move, the appointment of a sub-treasurer at New York. 
 He must be one facile to the uses of the conspiracy. How the plan was 
 contrived, Mr. Catherwood testifies. He thus gives us its basis: "Men 
 could operate with safety when they are acting on a certainty." After- 
 ward, when developing the plot, he was asked to state more distinctly 
 the "legitimate thing" which the "pool" was to attain. He answered: 
 
 I understood that it was buying gold and selling stocks and Tjonds on a certainty of 
 the movements of the government in selling or not selling gold. 
 
 In further development of the plot he even goes so far as to say that 
 the profits of the "pool" were divided into four parts, one-fourth to Cor- 
 
 bin, one-fourth to himself, one-fourth to Gould, and one-fourth to -, 
 
 some one for whom Gould was taking care. On this point Mr. Gould 
 was not questioned. He is therefore silent. In this as in other matters 
 Mr. Corbin forgets or perverts the facts. He denied any such combi- 
 nation, for he denied giving any aid to General Butterfield's appointment. 
 He swears: "I frankly told Gould and Catherwood I could not recom- 
 mend the latter ;" and again he says: "I withdrew my promise to help 
 Butterfleld." He also denies any conversation with Butterfleld as to 
 Gould. He swears that he had no communications with Butterfleld at 
 all during the movement as to the ''gold business. While Mr. Corbin 
 denies generally all plans as to gold fluctuations, he flnally, under pres- 
 sure, confessed that he had not entire exemption from selflshness. He 
 "had not attained perfection, but was struggling for it!" 
 
 Notwithstanding these denials, it is certain, by a letter produced by 
 Catherwood, and written by Corbin to him, that there was a secret de- 
 sign to obtain control of the office of sub-treasurer of New York. It was 
 so secret and bad that Corbin, when writing, used a cipher to convey it 
 to his step-son-in-law, Catherwood. When they said " New Jersey rail- 
 road," they meant "New York sub-treasury." How much reliance is to 
 be placed on Corbin's statements will hereafter further appear. Cer- 
 tainly, on all matters where he is not conflrmed he needs it badly. In 
 our judgment there can be no doubt that Butterfleld was selected to 
 know the "certainty" of the government movements in the sale of gold 
 and purchase of bonds. Catherwood testifies that he was to be pressed 
 on the President, because, 1st, he was a military man, of fair record in 
 the war; 2d, as an old friend of the President's brother-in-law, Mr. Cor- 
 bin; 3d, because he was a friend of the President, having raised the 
 money to pay General Grant a large advance upon the house which 
 Corbin had originally sold to Grant, upon a similar subscription. We 
 forbear any comuient upon these transactions. They are outside of our 
 inquiry. It is enough that Butterfleld succeeded to the office. 
 
 What further was done the majority report faithfully details. We 
 have no doubt that the clearing-house, which is a nuisance to legitimate 
 traffic and commerce, and the Gold Exchange Bank, which was an in- 
 
VIEWS OP THE MINORITY. 463 
 
 by money, (the "phautom gold," which played so conspicuous a part in 
 the drama,) are obnoxious to the sweeping criticisms of the majority 
 report. The clearing-house gave great facilities for gambling. Seventy 
 millions a day was its general average, and not half of it legitimate 
 business. 
 
 "You can," says Mr. Pisk, "make more transactions through the 
 clearing-house with $5,000 than with $100,000 without it." He regards 
 it "a^an irresistible temptation." Men without means are by it enabled 
 to deal in immense sums of gold, or phantom gold. It is well illustrated 
 by this witness : You are a member of the board, suppose, and you say, 
 "I will sell you gold at 21," and I say, " I will take it." You and I ex- 
 change tickets. To-morrow you have got to give me that gold ; but you 
 come to me and buy the gold, or you borrow it and give it to me. It is 
 nothing really but a piece of paper." A million thus may settle twenty 
 millions of transactions, or no gold at all may settle millions. 
 
 The minority concur with Mr. Low, that they "know of no legitimate 
 business that could not be transacted without the Gold Exchange Bank." 
 We concur in the majority report that federal legislation in the form of 
 taxation would be of great utility in destroying this pestiferous institu- 
 tion. The gambling hells of Hamburg or Monaco are not more perni- 
 cious as temptations. Their evils are few compared to those inflicted 
 upon all our country and its business by this time and labor-saving 
 machine to facilitate gold gambling. 
 
 When such a system is understood, honest people outside of Wall 
 
 • street will not wonder that gold dashed up from forty to sixty-three and 
 a half per cent., and dropped as instantly; and this, too, when not a 
 doUar of coin, or even gold checks, changed hands ! Nor will they won- 
 der that the "longs," or those who had the gold "cornered," were not 
 so strong but that four millions of real gold would break them, espe- 
 
 [ cially when it was known that the government, who were to sell these 
 I four millions, had eighty or ninety millions behind. 
 
 GOVBENMENT AID. 
 
 Hence it will be seen how important it was for these speculators to 
 know of a "certainty" what the government intended to do. If they 
 could rely on its action being divulged to them, speculation was safe. 
 The natural laws of trade and commercial honor would thwart any plan, 
 
 * unless the plotters could rely on the government, either to interfere or 
 refrain. When the administration were known to be in favor of infla- 
 ting gold on the " crop theory," it was an element in the accomplishment 
 of the plan. 
 
 To Mr. Gould, a man of remarkable coolness and brains, was commit- 
 ted the management of the practical operations. H« selected his agents , 
 They were brokers of various repute. Some were, like Beldeu, shrei^ d 
 and bold ; some, like Speyers, inflammable, yet manageable. Fisk seems 
 "only to have been the "robustious" element; but, in fact, he was as 
 
 J 
 
464 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 ductile as the " woodbine "about his more vigorous colleague. He seems 
 to us more like a vociferous lieutenant who carried the commands of his 
 quiet captain who willed them. Corbin, who is credited by Gould and 
 the committee with being very sagacious and wily, was relied on to keep 
 the President to the produce theory, and to prevent Secretary Boutwell 
 from being so influenced by the bears as to control the President. He 
 plied his purposes by editorials to the press, and by letters to the Presi- 
 dent. The sanctity of his demeanor, and the shrewdness of his tact, 
 led him to be trusted by Gould even, as well as by others. lie pro- 
 fessed to be anxious for the prosperity of the country, for the high price 
 of breadstuffs, and the balance of trade in our favor, with a view to aid 
 the then pending elections in the interest of the administration and the 
 country. The part played by Eutterfleld is not so very clear. He cer- 
 tainly took advantage of his official position, if not to aid the scheme 
 and help his confederates, in the end to help himself. 
 
 This is shown by the testimony of his banker, Mr. Seligman, as well 
 as by his own evidence. 
 
 The minority of the committee are, however, so far as this inquiry is 
 concerned, utterly careless upon which of these parties shall fall the 
 onus and odium of this plan, or its operation. It is of no importance 
 for the pui-poses of legislation, or for the information of the public judg- 
 ment, what persons gained or suffered ; or whether the suits now pend- 
 ing for the debris of the disaster are just or not. What brokers played 
 their parts, with whom, or how, and with what results, is of little public 
 consequence. But it is of inestimable importance for the people, whose • 
 values and prosperity suffer by these occurrences of panic in gold, to 
 know why such terrible curses come ; how, Avhen they do come, to find 
 the remedy for them, and how to prevent their recurrence. To this end, 
 it is of equal importance to know that it is at any time in the power of 
 unscrupulous nien of means and audacity to so combine as to change 
 all the relations of trade and ruin innocent people. 
 
 Such combinations produce upon business universal distrust of the 
 future ; and, as a consequence, almost an entire paralysis of trade. This 
 was the immediate effect of this panic uxjon the foreign trade, in which 
 gold interests are involved and which depends on prospective obliga- 
 tions in gold. It is impossible to estimate these afflictive effects on 
 foreign commerce. Merchants in the foreign trade often meet their im- 
 mediate obligations by borrowing gold, believing that they can buy at a 
 lower rate in the future. Before this September panic there was an im- 
 mense amount of gold borrowed. Hence, the chief sufferers, as Mr. 
 Opdyke testifies, were the importing merchants. Bankers and brokers 
 were similarly though not equally affected. But the worst effects were 
 too general and indefinite for analysis. These reached over the whole 
 country and over the entire world of commerce. It made men think 
 that we were a nation of gamblers ; that it was not safe to deal with a 
 people under whose policy and government it was possible for such com- 
 
VIEWS OF THE MINORITY. 465 
 
 binations to be made. All our securities suffered, more or less, at home 
 and abroad. But for the peculiar prudence of our merchants, who had 
 been warned in the preceding months, the shock and disaster would 
 I hare been incalculably greater. At the time when our importations re- 
 quired the use of a million of gold per day, and when our custom dues 
 required the half of that sum, it may be readily inferred how such fluc- 
 tuations affected all our domestic trade. In this connection it is well to 
 remember that the jobber buys of the importer, who pays in gold; that 
 the jobber sells for currency, and his purchaser, as weU as himself, is 
 guided by the value of gold at the time; and that profits may be lost if 
 gold rises between the time of selling and time of payment. It will also 
 be remembered that the tariff dues are payable in gold, and the price of 
 the articles imported depends on the price of gold. 
 
 The minority are, therefore, more anxious to point out the sources of 
 these terrible evils than to fix upon any man, or set of men, the stigma 
 of conspirators against the common weal. We are willing to admit that 
 the parties are all that imagination can paint of unscrupulous men ; and 
 yet, stopping here, there can no good result from this investigation. 
 Whether Oorbiu's innoeency of the plot be admitted or denied; whether, 
 as Fisk says, there " never was any understanding regarding a corner 
 in gold;" or whether he ever " had a word or not with any human being 
 on the subject, except with Corbin ;" whether, as Gould testifies, he only 
 intended to run gold up to 37 or 40, but that it was run up without his 
 aid or wish by " frightened bears, who jumped over each others' shoul- 
 ders for it;" whether Pisk was in with Gould or Butterfleld, or with 
 either of them ; or Catherwood with neither; or whether Speyers played 
 his insane part as the broker of Fisk or of Belden ; all this is inconse- 
 quential compared to the inquiry : " How did the government policy 
 affect these disasters ; and how may such disasters be averted in the 
 future f' 
 
 The niinority join with their colleagues in recommending some legis- 
 lation upon this subject ; but they cannot fail to see how impotent aU 
 legislation will be, so long as agents of the government and their out- 
 side confederates can know with " certainty " and communicate with 
 ease the intentions and conduct of the fiscal oflioers in advance of pub- 
 lic information ; or how, being advised of such intention and conduct in 
 advance by a careless and unpractical system, they may adapt their 
 plans to the exigencies of which they are advised. All such legislation 
 is futile so long as a policy is pursued by the Secretary of the Treasury 
 wMch advises such agents and the public what to eapect as to sales of gold, 
 so that speculations may proceed with safety. Mr. Catherwood de- 
 scribes our meaning when he states that the basis of their original plan 
 was that there would be stability in the sales of gold, as an assurance 
 for safe operations. 
 
 It is possible for such combinations to succeed even better than the 
 one now investigated, so long as the treasury is fuU of gold, and so long 
 
466 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 as the head of the Treasury cau dispose of it at pleasure, as upon his 
 present plan. To remedy the evil we should have, first, no such omnip- 
 otence over the currency, markets, and interests of the people ; no such 
 supreme control vested in any one, however honest in intention, over the 
 results of our industries ; and, second, no scheming and untrustworthy 
 subordinate oflcials, and no possibility of such appliances and approaches 
 to the head of the government, which this investigation reveals. 
 
 There is nothing proved in this investigation so clearly as this fact : 
 That the schemers relied and risked their fortunes absolutely upon their 
 belief of what the government would do. Mr. Gould says that the 
 whole speculation was based upon the belief that the government was 
 not going to sell gold. He says that he had good reason to suppose "it 
 was the policy of the administration to let gold work up until after the 
 fall crops were moved, and that he never would have gone into the 
 movement unless he had so believed." He asserts that Mr. Corbin had 
 become very much interested in the " crop " theory ; it had become a 
 monomania with him, and that, after various interviews with Corbin 
 and with the President, the latter, from being a " contractionist," had 
 " changed his views ;" that the President remarked " that the govern- 
 ment would do nothing during the fall months of the year to put down 
 the price of gold or make money tight. On the contrary, they would 
 do everything to facilitate the movement of breadstuffs." The President 
 gave his reasons to Mr. Gould why he would not sell gold. He said to 
 Mr. Oorbin that Mr. Boutwell had given an order to sell, and that he 
 countermanded it, and that afterward Mr. Boutwell acquiesced in the 
 President's views. That Mr. Gould was right is evidenced by Mr. Bout- 
 well's testimony hereinafter quoted. On these assurances Mr. Gould 
 risked largely. He bought gold for Mr. Corbin on and after these 
 assurances of the President. These assurances of the President were 
 repeated to Mr. Gould on the third interview which he relates. More- 
 over, a letter was written, as Mr. Gould states, to Mr. Boutwell by the 
 President, in reference to this matter. This is doubtless the letter 
 on the 4th of September. It was intended as a counterblast against 
 the " bears," who were to dine Mr. Boutwell in 'New York. In pursu- 
 ance of the same plan the letter of Corbin was dispatched by Fisk to 
 the President at Washington, Pennsylvania. That letter is not de- 
 scribed by Corbin and Gould alike. In its absence or destruction the 
 testimony of the President was indispensable to show further what reli- 
 ance was placed by the schemers on the government aid. That testi- 
 mony is refused ; but of that hereafter. 
 
 Mr. Fisk confirms Gould's statement as to their implicit reliance on 
 the administration for their succor. He testified also that Butterfield 
 was considered " all-important." " I could see," he says, " that if they 
 had a claim on him, if he got the news first, he would give it to them." 
 * * * " Butterfield kept sending down word to Mr. Gould that 
 everything was all right." So says Mr. Fisk. Mr. Corbin told him 
 
VIEWS OF THE MINOEITY. 467 
 
 " that his (Corbin's) arrangements with General Grant were perfect." 
 He acted, as he swears, on what Corbin and his wife told him. He 
 swears that Corbin was in the plot because of his relation to the govern- 
 ment officials. Unless Fisk swears to lies by the wholesale, he was most 
 apprehensive of government interference with their plans. " I said to 
 Gould, if we bought gold up, the government would unload their gold 
 on to us." Said he, " That is all fixed." The President was then in 
 the city. " Corbin has got Butterfleld and Grant all right. Corbin has 
 prevailed on Grant to make it 145." To confirm Pisk, Corbin came out 
 and said, " Mrs. Grant had an interest." Corbin said, " You need not 
 have the least fear." This was in answer to me when I asked him 
 whether the government would unload on us. I then said, " I want to 
 know whether what Mr. Gould has told me is true ; I want to know 
 whether you have sent the twenty-five thousand dollars to Washington, 
 as he states ; he then told me he had sent it." For further confirma- 
 tion of this part of the plan to rely on government help, we refer to 
 the interesting extracts, marked A, from Pisk's statement. (See note, 
 pp. 19,20.) They purport to give interviews and conversations be- 
 tween Pisk and Corbin, in some of which Mrs. Corbin is alleged to take 
 part. She added her assurances of executive aid to the hesitating Pisk. 
 These interviews, if not true altogether, have some- verisimilitude, as 
 they culminate in the dispatch qf Corbin's letter to the President at 
 Washington, Pennsylvania, and in a journey by the worthy couple, Mr. 
 and Mrs. Corbin, in the night and in haste, to Washington, D. C. It 
 was not till the climax had been reached, and " every man had to drag 
 out his own corpse," (Pisk,) that this reliance on the Executive assist- 
 ance seems to have failed. 
 
 Whether Pisk fabricates these statements or not, it is certain that 
 the "conspirators" relied on this aid to the last. Whether they had 
 sufficient reason for such reliance, we do not now consider ; nor is it 
 necessary, in our view, to consider at all. 
 
 K'or does Corbin in his testimony expressly deny that this reliance 
 was a part of the plan. While we are as ready to accept Pisk's state- 
 ments as those of Corbin — and no more ready — we find in this matter 
 that Corbin, the brother-in-law of the President, arranges frequent meet- 
 ings for Gould with the President ; that both upon the steamboats of 
 Gould and Pisk and in Corbin's house, the fullest communication takes 
 place with the President. It appears, also, that Corbin designed to pre- 
 sent Mrs. Grant some stocks as early as July, " only to please his sister- 
 in-law ;" and, although Mr. Corbin could not see " what a little intended 
 gift in stocks last summer had to do with gold fluctuations," the House 
 and the people will not fail to see that it was not altogether an insignifi- 
 cant gratuity by a loving brother-in-law to please his sister-in-law. It 
 had some little taint of selfishness, though it may be the designer was 
 unconscious of it. Why Mr. Corbin should call in his wife to the last 
 agonizing interview with these schemers, before they went to Washing- 
 
468 GOLD PAJ^IC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 ton on their pilgrimage, is as mucli of a mystery as the hasty dispatch 
 of letters to the distant President. The mystery is only solved on the 
 theory that the schemers relied on government aid to the very last. We 
 are left in the dark as to how the President learned of Corbin's gold 
 speculations, he was so far from the scene. We are at a loss to under- 
 stand the violent appeals made by Oorbin in the committee room to the 
 Almighty against a member of Congress penetrating by questions into 
 his designs as to the purchase of bonds, &c., for the President's house- 
 hold ; and equally at a loss to understand why he appealed to the reso- 
 lution of this House to protect him from answering questions bearing on 
 such designs ; and still more puzzled at his prevarication and evasion in 
 not answering the half dozen questions as to the authorship of the "Sis" 
 letter,* unless upon the hypothesis that all the plotters in this selfish 
 scheme, including Corbin himself, relied on the assistance of the admin- 
 istration. Plain people will wonder, and poor people will be astonished, 
 that this man Corbin should coolly take one-half million of gold to his 
 wife's credit, as purchaser from Gould, and then again a million more — 
 all for his wife, and all " confidentially ; " confidentially, because '' it 
 would hurt him if it came out" — if he did not rely on the government 
 help to inflate gold, so as to realize upon his patriotic crop theory. 
 Shrewd people "upon the street," even, will be astonished that he suc- 
 ceeded in getting from Gould $25,000 cash, which he deftly hid in his 
 bank on a check requiring and receiving no signature of his, and ming- 
 ling with it another $1,000, so as to make it $26,000, and thus conceal 
 
 * Extract from CorMn's testimony. 
 
 " Q. Did you, after that, show any letter to Mr. Gould, received from any member of 
 tlie President's family ? — A. I did— yes. I should say that that is not the phraseology. 
 I did not show any letter, hut I read to him so and so. 
 
 " Q. What did you read to him ? — A. Well, I do not know. Let me try my memory. 
 It was a letter written to my wife— written in great distress. 
 
 "By Mr. Jones: 
 
 " Q. Written hy whom? — A. It was written hy ' Sis.' 
 
 " Q. Who ? — A. It was written in a hurry — an affectionate letter, written in haste. 
 
 " Q. Who wrote the letter ? — A. I am answering as speoiiioally as human phraseology 
 can do it. 
 
 " By Mr. Judd : 
 
 " Q. Who do you mean hy ' Sis ' ? — A. I am explaining. 
 
 '• Q. You can state the name ? — A. I am explaining, and cannot do it any better than 
 I am doing it. 
 
 " Q. Will you answer that question ? — A. I will. I will not evade it, nor am I capa- 
 ble of evasion. 
 
 " Q. Who do you mean by ' Sis ' ?— A. I mean just what I say. That was the signa- 
 ture to the letter. I am so agitated ; and I wish the committee would notice I am a 
 little excited — very weak and very nervous. I am perfectly broken down, and there is. 
 but a wreck left. A letter came there, as I was saying, signed 'Sis; ' I have no doubt 
 about it, because that is the way in which those western ladies write; they sit down 
 and write a note and sign, 'In haste. — Sis.' I never received a letter from her, and 
 cannot swear to the handwriting of it, but have no doubt of it." 
 
VIEWS OF THE MINORITY. 469 
 
 the transaction — unless lie rendered some aid or gave some considera- 
 tion. Nor will the wonder cease that, after the matter was brnited, his 
 wife should, to use his own language, "prefer a settlement to a brilliant 
 offer " of $100,000 more of profits never earned by his efforts. What 
 could that service and consideration be, unless it was in connection with 
 the Executive, in impressing his " crop theory " of inflating gold ? 
 
 There is not a particle of doubt but that Corbin was interested, and 
 his r61e was that of procuring the aid of the President for his theory. 
 Butterfleld himself frankly states to Gould "that he knew the views and 
 policy of the government were that they would not sell any gold until 
 after the crops were sent to the market." Who contributed to this 
 policy unless it was Mr. Corbin ? 
 
 That this was the policy impressed upon the President by this perti- 
 nacious schemer is placed beyond the shadow of a doubt, by the cor- 
 respondence between the President and the Secretary of the Treasury. 
 The President, either from conviction of the feasibility and utility of the 
 crop theory, or from his indifference and inattention to the designs un- 
 derlying it, accepted it. He never intended that gold should go down. 
 Gould did not expect it. In this was the realization of Ms plan. 
 
 TJnconsciously, or consciously, the President in his letters to Mr. Bout- 
 well worked in unison with the conspirators. 
 
 GOLD EESERVE, ETC. 
 
 It is impossible to prevent large amounts of gold from accumulating 
 in the treasury, especially under our present system of tariffs and public 
 debt. It is a pertinent inquiry, therefore, which, the minority desire to 
 make : how much gold should be retained in the treasury as a reserve, 
 and in wbat manner should the surplus be disposed of? These are 
 among the difficult questions which arise in the administration of the 
 Treasury Department, in the present unfortunate and anomalous condi- 
 tion of the currency. It is important to know how the present system 
 originated. The views and actions of the recent Secretary (Mr. McCul- 
 loch) in dealing with them are thus explained in his reports to Congress. 
 In his report of December, 1866, he remarked, that in order to secure 
 steadiness in the market while business was conducted on a paper basis, 
 there must be power in the treasury to prevent successful combinations 
 to bring about fluctuations for purely speculati ve purposes. He thought 
 specie payments were not to be attained by an accumulation of coin in 
 the treasury, to be paid out at a future day in the redemption of govern- 
 ment obligations, but rather by quickened industry, increased produc- 
 tion, and lower prices, which alone could make us a creditor and not a 
 debtor nation. 
 
 In his report of December, 1868, (pages 48-9,) he used the following 
 language: 
 
 It was, and constantly has been, therefore, the aim of the Secretary bo to administer 
 the Treasury, while horrowing money and funding the temporary ohligations, as to 
 
470 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 prevent a commercial crisis, and to keep the business of the country as steady as was 
 possible on the basis of an irredeemable and constantly fluctuating currency. Whether 
 his efforts have contributed to this end or not, he does not undertake to say; but the 
 fact is unquestioned that a great war has been closed, large loans have been effected, 
 heavy revenues have been collected, and some thirteen hundred millions of dollars of 
 temporary obligations have been paid or funded, and a great debt brought into man^ 
 ageable shape, not only vrithout a financial crisis, but without any disturbance to the 
 ordinary business of the country. To accomplish these things successfully, the Secre- 
 tary deemed it necessary that the Treasury should be kept constantly in a strong con- 
 dition, -with power to prevent the credit of the government and the great interests of 
 the people from being placed at the mercy of adverse influences. Notwithstanding the 
 magnitude and character of the debt, this power the Treasury has, for the last three 
 years, possessed ; and it has l)een the well-Tcnown existence, rather than the exercise of it, 
 which has, in repeated instances, saved the country from panic and disaster. The gold 
 reserve, the maintenance of which has subjected the Secretary to constant and bitter 
 criticism, has given a confidence to the holders of our securities, at home and abroad, 
 by the constant evidence which it exhibited of the ability of the government, without 
 depending upon purchases in the market, to pay the interest upon the public debt, and 
 a steadiness to trade, by preventing violent fluctuations in the convertible value of the 
 currency, which have been a more th^n ample compensation to the country for any 
 loss of interest that may have been sustained thereby. If the gold in the treasury 
 had been sold down to what was absolutely needed for the payment of the interest on 
 thepublic debt, not only would the public credit have been endangered, but the cur- 
 rency; and, consequently, the entire business of the country would have been con- 
 stantly subject to the dangerous power of speculative combinations. 
 
 From these extracts it will appear, first, that the former Secretary 
 kept a reserve of coin, to steady business; that he regarded the loss in 
 interest more than made up in preventing heavy losses to the country. 
 He regarded his power to sell as indispensable to prevent combinations 
 for fluctuations and speculations. He has also sold gold to raise cur- 
 rency when needed, and to save the paper currency from depreciation. 
 Whatever we may think of this immense power, lodged in the breast of 
 the Secretary, it must be confessed that there was great freedom from 
 speculation and panic under the policy of the late Secretary. His op- 
 erations are well described in the following extract from his report of 
 1868: 
 
 Similar complaint has also been made of the manner in which gold and bonds have 
 been disposed of, by what has been styled " secret sales ; " and yet precisely the same 
 course has been pursued in these sales that careful and prudent men pursue who sell 
 on their own account. The sales have been made when currency was needed, and 
 prices were satisfactory. It was not considered wise or prudent to advise the dealers precisely 
 when and to what amount sales were to ie made, (no sane man operating on his own account 
 would have done this,) but all sales of gold have been made in the open market, and 
 of bonds by agents or the assistant treasurer in New York, in the ordinary way, with 
 a view of obtaining the very best prices, and with the least possible disturbance of 
 business. 
 
 From these extracts, and from other passages in his reports, it ai^pearg 
 that Mr. McOulloch considered ifc to be the duty of the government, 
 whUe it keeps in circulation a large volume of notes — which, although 
 depreciated, are still the legal standard of value, and which the people 
 are compelled to receive and use as " lawful money" — to prevent, by the 
 
VIEWS OF THE MINORITY. 471 
 
 use of all proper means, tlieir notes from being depreciated or kept con- 
 stantly fluctuating in value by speculative influences and combinations. 
 Mr. McOuUoch thought, also, when gold was to be sold for the purpose 
 of supplying the treasury with currency, or of redeeming government 
 obligations, that the sales should be made in the manner adopted by 
 business men, with the view of obtaining full current prices. 
 
 The present Secretary entertains different views of the duty of the 
 government in regard to its circulating notes, and he has adopted a dif- ' 
 ferent course in the sale of gold. He thinks that the government has 
 nothing to do with the "money market," notwithstanding it has in circu- 
 lation four hundred millions of irredeemable legal- tender notes, the appre- 
 ciation or depreciation of which affects every man's business and the 
 value of every man's property throughout the length and breadth of the 
 country, In this remark we may except the Pacific States and the Ter- 
 ritories, where gold is the circulating medium. These four hundred mil- 
 lions of paper money may be largely appreciated or depreciated in their 
 convertible value by dealers in money, who are enriched by the very fluc- 
 tuations which are so damaging to legitimate business. He thinks it also 
 wise to notify dealers in advance of the time at which sales will be made, 
 and the amount that will be sold ; thus, when not intending it, giving to 
 them the information they need; that thus they may make profits at 
 the expense of the public. It will be here observed from the testimony 
 of the present Secretary, as well as that of General Butterfleld, that 
 from a mistaken policy on the part of the Secretary — and maybe upon 
 the advice of his subordinate — this open, plausible publicity as to gold 
 sales was adopted. How futile it was, abundantly appears when the 
 testimony of brokers and telegraphers is read. There is not a doubt 
 upon the minds of the minority that these open messages were in some 
 mysterious way, not unraveled by the committee, known to certain par- 
 ties in Wall street and the gold-room, and " upon the street," before their 
 Ipublication to the world. The fact that these messages could be known 
 and the mode of their divulgement concealed by the apparent fairness 
 employed, may'have been one of the inducements to the formation of 
 the plot. 
 
 Now, while we do not desire nor intend to impute improper motives 
 to the Secretary, nor to impugn his integrity, we cannot overlook the 
 fact that it was this policy of the Secretary, and his expected adherence to it 
 under Executive influences, that led to the combination of speculators for 
 advancing the price of gold, or rather to depreciate United States notes. 
 This much the majority should have said in tracing the origin and char- 
 acter of the panic, which it has been made the duty of this committee to 
 investigate. This combination depreciated the property of the country 
 to the extent of many millions of dollars. It gave a shock to business 
 from which it has not yet recovered. It ruined hundreds of men who 
 had no connection with it. It cast suspicions upon our highest ofiScials, 
 which is of itself a loss of credit and values to the country. It has con- 
 
472 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 tributed to the spread of extravagance and speculation — debauching the 
 morals of trade, while affecting all the values of industry. 
 
 What the losses are, incident and consequent, upon this mode of sell- 
 ing gold under such combinations and circumstances, the eminent mer- 
 chants and others who were before us have shown : Mr. Low as to for- 
 eign trade, Mr. Opdyke as to domestic trade, and others as to all our 
 interests, have spoken. 
 
 As to the policy that should be hereafter pursued in the sales of gov- 
 ernment gold, if these sales are to be continued, it is not the duty of 
 the committee to advise. The minority are, however, of the opinion that 
 the power to make sales should not be left to the discretion of any officer, 
 no matter how able and honest he may be. It should be regulated by 
 law. The temptations to an improper use of such a power may be too 
 strong to be resisted, and if resisted, suspicion will still inevitably attach 
 to its exercise. Thus the usefulness of the official will be impaired, and 
 reproach be brought upon the government. 
 
 In reflecting upon the immense strides lately taken in the aggrandize- 
 ment of power in the federal government, whether it has been increased 
 by the sword or the purse, we cannot leave this part of our subject with- 
 out entering a protest as emphatic as language can utter it, against a 
 discretionary power which affects at its will all the values of the country. 
 It may well be doubted whether we shall ever retrace our steps to local 
 or public freedom, so long as one federal official can collect four hundred 
 millions of taxes per annum from the overtaxed public, and " regulate" 
 nearly twice as many millions of paper currency, and at will traffic in 
 gold, which is the currency of foreign, if not the standard of domestic 
 commerce. 
 
 What amount of coin should be kept in the treasury in reserve as a 
 preparation for unforeseen emergencies, and to give steadiness to the con- 
 vertible value of the legal-tender issues, must depend upon contingencies 
 that cannot be anticipated. 
 
 Less, however, will be required than was needed when the work of 
 funding the floating debt was in progress. The indications are that a 
 current reserve of $40,000,000, in addition to the amount for which gold 
 certificates have been issued, will be ample. 
 
 In this view the minority see a proper and logical connection between 
 reducing our taxation and tariff. Less money in the treasury, and bet- 
 ter money in the hands of the people, and there would be less profligacy 
 and corruption, and less temptation for bold adventurers to take advan- 
 tage of the errors of even an honest administration. 
 
 CONNECTION OF OFFICIALS WITH PANIC. 
 
 The public would be glad to know, in connection with this panic, that 
 there are no charges made or sustained against the Executive or his 
 subordinates; they would be glad to know that all suspicions are 
 removed which these extraordinary schemes have engendered. So far 
 
VIEWS OF THE MINOEITY. 473 
 
 as the sub-treasurer at New York is concerned, we refer to his own tes- 
 timony, and concur in the general conclusions of the majority ; so far as 
 the Secretary of the Treasury is concerned, he gave us a frank statement 
 of what we believe to be an honest administration of a most pernicious 
 system. So far as concerns the President, the minority were even more 
 desirous than the majority of the committee to join in a report entirely 
 removing all doubt, even in the minds of the most prejudiced, against 
 the Chief Executive and his family. During tlie examination this was 
 our often-expressed and urgent desire. We could take no partisan or 
 other pleasure in affixing a stain or iuHicting a wound upon the Chief 
 Executive of our country. It is no agreeable office to impugn the personal 
 integrity of our common President. His reserved life and military 
 renown, and the great good will displayed toward him by the people in 
 making him their choice, does and should, in some sort, hedge him round 
 about. Our respect for his offlce, as well as for himself and, friends, leads 
 us to forbear, without the most positive'evidence, to implicate him or any 
 of his, by charge or innuendo, in a plot to trade in or tamper with the 
 currency, or affect for selfish ends the values of the people. We hoped 
 to join heartily with our colleagues in acquitting him of indifference to, 
 or acquiescence in, such schemes. 
 
 This being our wish and motive, it might have been expected that our 
 colleagues would have been cheerfully prompt to assist in carrying out 
 the object, and this was their first design. After testimony had been 
 taken showing that there was, as a part of the plot, a preconcerted 
 design to influence the President in its favor ; after the conferences so 
 often repeated between the President, Fisk, Gould, and Corbin, at the 
 house of the last and on the steamer of the others ; after the dispatch of 
 the letters by the confederates to a distant part of the land, for the eye 
 of the President and his wife ; after the President had himself, as is 
 shown by the testimony of the Secretary of the Treasury, undertaken to 
 intervene in this matter of gold sales, so as to keep gold up ; after the 
 President is shown to be a convert to the crop theory of the conspirators j 
 and after the letter written by Mrs. Grant to Mrs. Corbin, (which, Uke 
 the letter of Corbin to the President, was destroyed;) after all these 
 sworn statements, pointing to the head of the government as having 
 taken, in this, the only instance, some personal responsibility upon this 
 subject of gold sales, and in a matter where the chief of the conspira- 
 tors was his brother-in-law ; and after the testimony before us, showing 
 the origin, progi-ess, and collapse of the scheme, it might have been ex- 
 pected that the committee would not dissolve without giving the Execu- 
 tive an opportunity of explanation. We say of explanation ; but we do 
 not say it as necessarily implying his inculpation ; nor should the major- 
 ity thus insist. But explanation was called for, of the different parts 
 which he played, or was made to play, it may be honestly, in a drama 
 where his wife, his sister, that sister's husband, and himself, were con- 
 stantly appearing as personal. One word vouchsafed from the President, 
 
474 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 one statement from his wife and his sister, would have elucidated many 
 mysteries, and furnished us the opportunity of saying: "We, the oppo- 
 nents of this Executive, in all fair criticism, add our tribute to confirm the 
 partial attestation of his friends, and we do it the more cheerfully be- 
 cause we are bound by our relations to the administration to challenge 
 all its acts." 
 
 Was this opportunity furnished ? Justice to the committee requires 
 us to say that, at first, it was. It was left for the minority to suggest 
 this, but it was unanimously agreed to. We did it with becoming respect. 
 The record shows that Mr. Cox offered the following : 
 
 I move tliat the chairmau of this committee be requested, either in writing or per- 
 sonally, as he.may choose, to confer with the President of the United States in refer- 
 ence to the testimony given hefore the committee which refers to him or his family; 
 and that in said conference he respectfully request of the President, after considering 
 the matter, whether he desires to be heard before the committee, or otherwise, -with 
 reference to said evidence. 
 
 Shortly afterward, on the 4th of February, the honorable chairman. 
 General Garfield, made the following report : 
 
 In pursuance of the instructions of the committee, I called upon the President of 
 the United States, and stated to him that in some of the testimony taken before the 
 committee personal reference was made to himself, and to some members of his family ; 
 and that the committee had authorized me to lay before him that portion of the testi- 
 mony, that he might make any suggestions or statements concerning it if he chose to 
 do so. 
 
 The President desired me to express his thanks to the committee for their courtesy, 
 and to say that he preferred not to see the testimony, nor to make any suggestion or 
 statement in reference to it, during the progress of the investigation. 
 
 On the presentation of this report it was suggested that the President 
 desired to be more formal and official in his relations with the committee 
 of Congress than the resolution seemed to indicate. Thereupon believ- 
 ing that he would be glad to appear and afford us his explanations, (as 
 his secretary had, and as President Lincoln had to a former committee,) 
 and still anxious that we might hear him, so that we might all join in 
 the justification of his personal integrity, as well as of his official con- 
 duct, as to the gold sales, Mr. Cox, on the 4th of February, moved that 
 he be summoned. It was suggested that we had not the power to reach 
 the Executive in this way; that his only mode of communicating with 
 this branch of the government was by message ; that he might have 
 contemplated that mode, and that our only mode of reaching him for 
 official acts was by impeachment. Thereupon, to remove all such 
 objections, and still feeling the necessity of hearing from the President, 
 one of his friends on the committee, and in our judgment his wisest 
 friend, on the motion arising on the 8th of February to summon the 
 Presfdent, moved to amend it " by requesting" the President to appear 
 before the committee. This vote to amend, as the record shows, was 
 lost. 
 
 There was the same result on the original resolution to summon. The 
 committee could not have shown more respect to the President. Indeed, 
 
VIEWS OF THE MINORITY. 475 
 
 it is our own belief that he would not have refused to appear. Even 
 though he may have doubted our power to summon him, he might have 
 waived his right and responded. 
 
 Thus the undersigned are left for their guidance in these matters en- 
 tirely to the mysterious, unexplained, conflictiDg, and nebulous testi- 
 mony which points to, but does not enter, the inviolable chambers of 
 the White House. 
 
 While we accord to the committee the utniost vigilance in prosecuting 
 their researches into the conduct of the sub-treasurer and the haunts of 
 the gold gamblers and their agents, in New York, we cannot accord to 
 them the same thoroughness in the examination of offlcials in the city 
 of Washington. Experts, brokers, bankers, merchants, litigants — men 
 who knew and men who did not know — men who had heard things 
 second and third hand, and men who had only theories to swear to — all 
 appear before the committee without objection ; but some of the chief 
 performers are behind the scenes, and no request, however respectful, 
 brings them forth to the light. The conduct of the sub-treasurer is 
 handled without gloves ; the testimony of the Secretary and his records 
 are spread before us with great frankness ; the telegraph operators are 
 called in, and the testimony of implicated and interested men in all the 
 labyrinths of this most stupendous plot, whose leading feature, as we have 
 shown, was its reliance on Executive aid, is exhaustively given ; but the 
 Executive is not allowed to be heard, even to explain the mischiefs or the 
 virtues of his own expressed policy. If it be true, as Mr. A. A. Low 
 testifies, that the conspiracy was a " wicked combination of men to raise 
 the price of gold, to the injury of the common interest, basing their cal- 
 culations on the policy of the government to withhold so much gold 
 that they could manipulate the balance; " if, as he swears, the immediate 
 " cause " of the " panic" "was a combination of men to raise the price of 
 gold for purposes of their own — men who acted on the belief that gov- 
 ernment would continue to hoard its gold as it had been doing, de- 
 priving the country of the use of that gold ; " and if this policy " made 
 speculation a matter of easy calculation," and when the committee had 
 already shown, by conversations and letters, that the President had been 
 converted to that policy, we demand to know what there is in the 
 Executive office that we should stop short outside of its doors in our 
 investigations. The majority answer : " There is nothing to inculpate the 
 President, and our duty does not call on us to call on him until that is 
 done." But we are not assuming that the President is a criminal. The 
 committee are not an impeaching body. The personal reflection upon 
 him and his family was stricken from the original resolution. We are 
 only to examine the " causes " of the great panic. As these causes were 
 so closely associated with Executive action, it seems to us strange that 
 the majority should assume that there is a charge of Executive compli- 
 city, so as to deny investigation of these "causes." 
 
 The majority lay great stress and give great credence to Mr. Gould. 
 
476 • GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 He gave it as his opinion that the President was pure and had no con- 
 nection -with the movement. What has that to do with our investiga- 
 tion of " causes"?" Suppose this is Mr. Gould's opinion; or suppose Mr. 
 risk (as he does) gives a different opinion. We know it is a part of 
 the plan of these shrewd operators, in matters of this quasi-political 
 nature, where their interests are in question, to balance or divide their 
 opinions between parties. But are these opinions, even if shared by 
 the committee, pro or con, a reason for calling a halt when the investi- 
 gation reaches the door of the White House "? 
 
 But even on Mr. Gould's statement we do not see why the President 
 should not be called. Eeferring to what we have already recounted as 
 to his testimony, and referring especially to the note at bottom of the 
 page* as to the two letters sent to Washington, Pennsylvania, it. is 
 asked of Mr. Gould how could the " Sis letter," requiring Corbin to 
 stop his gold speculations, be a response to Gorbin's letter to the Presi- ■ 
 dent on the crop-inflation theory ? Mr. Gould is evidently staggered, 
 and replies : " That is a point which has occurred to me." And, again, 
 being questioned, he is as much puzzled as the committee was to know 
 how the President and his family, at Washington, Pennsylvania, knew 
 of such speculations, for he says : " This letter of Mrs. Grant might 
 look as though he did know them, though he might have learned them 
 from newspapers, or other sources." 
 
 The minority also believe that it would elucidate the facts connected 
 with what is called the " Sis letter," if the lady who wrote, and the 
 
 * Extracts from Mr. Gould's evidence. 
 By tlie Chairman : 
 
 Q. Did I understand you to say that the letter from Mrs. Grant to Mrs. Corbin was 
 in response to Mr. CorMn's letter to the President? How do you know it was in re- 
 sponse to his letter to the President ? — A. Mr. Corhin told me so. 
 
 Q. Did the letter itself acknowledge itself to be a response to his letter to the Presi- 
 dent? — A. So far as this expression went I considered that it did. 
 
 Q. Was there anything in the letter that Mr. Corbin sent to the President, in regard 
 to his speculations in gold ? — A. I think Chapin took two letters ; one from Mr. Corbin 
 to the President, and one from Mrs. Corbin to Mrs. Grant. 
 
 Q. But the letter to the President, I understand you to say, or the substance of it, 
 was devoted, so far as you saw it, to discussing general questions, the general policy of 
 the government, and that the letter of Mrs. Grant to Mrs. Corbin spoke about specu- 
 lations of Mr. Corbin. How could that be a response to his letter to the President? — 
 A. That is anoint ihat has occurred to me. 
 
 Q. What do you say as to that point ?— A. I think the papers had used Mr. Corbin'e 
 name, and that the President probably thought he had some interest ; indeed lie might 
 have told him. 
 
 Q. Do you know that the President had ever been informed by Mr. Corbin, by your- 
 self, or by any other person, that Mr. Corbin was speculating in gold ? — A. No, sir. 
 
 Q. Do you believe he had been so informed when he was in New York, at the time 
 of any of the interviews he had with you or Mr. Corbin ? — A. There was never a word 
 passed between the President and myself, or in my hearing, that would lead me to 
 suppose the President knew anything about his movements, but this letter of Mrs. Grant 
 might look as though he did. 
 
VIEWS OF THE MINORITY. 477 
 
 lady who received it, were permitted to explaia it. The letter was de- 
 stroyed. It was a delicate matter to' call uj)on the gentler sex. We did 
 not feel as if our function was exactly that of a court of justice, which 
 has no " respect " for the sexes in the matter of evidence. But when 
 the committee summoned a lady, who is in the humble occupation of 
 telegrapher, we saw no reason why, with proper regard to the wife and 
 sister of the President, they could not at least be requested to give their 
 testimony. The motion of Mr. Jones, of Kentucky, was especially 
 guarded, so as to limit the action of the committee to the " taking of 
 their testimony," not by summoning these ladies to app;ear in a room of 
 the Capitol, but by their statement taken where, they chose — in their 
 houses, and in such a way as would comport with a due deference to 
 their sex and position. 
 
 This request, like that afterward to summon General Dent, of the 
 Executive Mansion, was refused. The minority were, therefore, with- 
 out the means of thoroughly sifting such " causes" of the panic as were 
 connected with the action of the Executive arid his familiar connec- 
 tions. 
 
 The minority do not desire to encumber their report with a rehearsal 
 of the points which should and could have been made clear by the testi- 
 mony of those witnesses whom the committee refused to summon. 
 
 The testimony of Catherwood, Oorbin, Pisk, and Gould, in their con- 
 tradictions and confusion, is only explicable in a satisfactory way by 
 the evidence of the rejected witnesses. To illustrate : 1st. Cathetwood, 
 if he is to be believed, says that Oorbin told him there was some interest 
 in the gold sales or purchases held by the President's family in Septem- 
 ber last. He also says that Oorbin told him he had bought bonds for 
 Mrs. Grant. Are these statements true 1 If not, who is to contradict 
 them — the unreliable Oorbin? or must we believe the unimpeached 
 Catherwood ? Again, Catherwood was asked whether he had reason to 
 believe that any member of the President's household was in any way 
 connected with the gold movement. He was going to state what Oorbin 
 told him, when he was stopped, Ah ! Corbin is reliable on some points, 
 but not on others, as it would seem. Hearsay was frequently admitted 
 by the committee, but not on this occasion. Did not this put the com- 
 mittee on inquiry at the source of information 1 What is that source, 
 unless it be the White House ? 
 
 2. As to the letter from Mrs. Grant to Mrs. Corbin, there is not the 
 same description of it given by Gould, who saw it, and Corbin, who 
 showed it. Mr. Gould says it was signed by Mrs. Grant's given name; 
 Mr. Oorbin says it was signed by " Sis." It contained an admonition 
 from the President to close his (Corbin's) speculations as quick as he 
 Bould. In the absence of this letter, or after proof of its destruction, 
 the committee, without indelicacy to the ladies, could have taken their 
 testimony and perhaps made all clear as to the knowledge of the Presi- 
 dent and his family about these speculations. 
 H. Bep. 31 31 
 
478 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 3. This letter of Mrs. Grant's (as Gould swears) was in respone to Mr. 
 Corbin's letter to the President. If so, what was Corbin's letter, that 
 it should call for such a response 1 
 
 Corbin says it had no reference to his speculations ; but it must have 
 had reference to them, else no such answer would have been responsive. 
 If so, both letters should have been produced, or, on evidence of their 
 destruction, the parties most concerned should have testified to their 
 contents and object. Tet the committee deny us the privilege to hear 
 such partie . 
 
 Moreover, Mr. Gould thinks that Chapin took two letters to Wash- 
 ington, Pennsylvania;; one to the President from Mr. Corbin, and the 
 other to Mrs. Grant from Mrs. Corbin. Whether this be true or not, it 
 is a matter of such doubt that the testimony. of Mrs. Grant and Mrs. 
 ■Corbin should have been given to dissipate or confirm the doubt. What 
 was that other letter of Mrs. Corbin to Mrs. Grant ; or was any such 
 sent? All we know is, it had reference to Corbin's gold speculations. 
 On this we have no other answer, as, the only party called is Corbin, 
 and he is not questioned as to .this particular letter; and if he were, he, 
 as we have shown, is unreliable. The majority themselves discredit 
 him more than they do Gould. In fact he says nothing about a letter 
 from his wife to Mrs. Grant, sent to Washington, Pennsylvania, by 
 Chapin. The committee have sealed our lips, by refusing to take such 
 testimony as would unravel this mystery. No explanations are per- 
 mitted. 
 
 After the breakdown in gold, Mr. Gould says that Corbin proffered 
 that he and his wife should go to Washington and get the order to sell 
 gold revoked. What passed at Washington, not only between the men 
 but the women, is not explained. Even if Mr. Corbin is reliable, it 
 does not explain all that transpired. Yet we are forbidden to caU on 
 the parties who know most and best of this singular journey, for this 
 remarkable object. 
 
 4. There were various dealings in stocks, and even a tender of a por- 
 tion of them by Corbin to Mrs. Grant. He says that she rejected the 
 tender; but if he is unreliable, who is to solve the matter? When 
 asked about this and similar designs, Mr. Corbin flares up; appeals to 
 Almighty God and the resolution of Congress to protect him ! Did 
 Mrs. Grant inform the President of these insidious approaches of her 
 brother-in-law to "please her" only, but in reality to influence the con- 
 duct of the President ? 
 
 Certainly Corbin undertook, as he swears, to deceive the President, 
 after his pretended closing of his gold transactions. What was in that 
 letter which Corbin sent to the President about his being m-t of all 
 speculations ? What was his real object 1 What else is tliere ir; i ^. be- 
 side his statement of it ? Where is it 1 Mrs. Corbin had writreu r, Iso, 
 inclosing the letter of her husband, saying that he had no intercut ui 
 gold. What was in that letter of Mrs. Corbin's? As it was conih-jtL'il 
 
VIEWS OP THE MINORITY. 479 
 
 Trith this far-reaching and ruinous panic, which concerns millions of 
 innocent families in this country, we ought to know. This is denied us. 
 Again, it was asked Mr. Corbin: "Did your wife, at that time, know 
 you had made that transaction ? " referring to the gold transaction of a 
 half million with Gould. He answers: "Only as I informed her; as 
 Gould went out, I told her. She had no knowledge of the transaction, 
 until I told her what I had done, and remarked that I hoped it would 
 benefit her." 
 
 Tet another impression was afterward attempted to be created by 
 Corbin, to wit, that he did not tell his wife about his gold speculations 
 till after the breakdown; all of which is important, and Mrs. Corbin 
 only could clear it up. Besides, there were various interviews where 
 Mrs. Corbin was present, and especially the one so graphically, if not 
 correctly, told by Mr. Fisk,* where wringing of hands and gnashing of 
 
 * Extracts from Msk's testimony. 
 fthen had, one evening, another interview with Corbin. We were feeling a little 
 nervous about the position we were then in. I said to Corbin, I hoped everything was 
 all for the best. " But," said I, "if we should miss — ^if the government should sell this 
 gold, it would certainly be a serious matter.'' Corbin then said to me : "I want you to 
 talk with my wife." Mrs. Corbin came into the room. I had been introduced to Mrs. 
 Corbin before. The thing had gone beyond the matter of mere courtesy with anybody 
 I met there. That was the first time I had seen her in reference to this transaction. 
 We sat down and talked the matter over quite fully. I did not cover any matters up. 
 I took it for granted that they had bought gold, and that they had as much interest in 
 the matter as I had. She made this remark : "I know there will be no gold sold by 
 the government ; I am quite positive there will be no gold sold ; for this is a chance of 
 a lifetime for us ; you need not have any uneasiness whatever." 
 
 I started away, on the strength of that Conversation, and I think it was on the morn- 
 ing of Thursday we left our carriage back of the post office, and when we came up to 
 get into the carriage, as I came along up street, we stopped right below Duncan & 
 Sherman's office. Mr. Gould says to me, " Old Corbin feels troubled and nervous about 
 some gold; he wants a hundred thousand dollars;" and, said Mr. Gould to me, "What 
 do you think of it f " Said I : " If he wants a hundred thousand dollars to feed out to 
 parties in interest, he had better have it." I think this was on the afternoon of Thurs- 
 day. Mr. Gould asked if that didn't look as if there might be some blow-up. I said, 
 "If he wants that money to deal out to people, and it will help to strengthen our posi- 
 tion in regard to this gold, we wiU give him one hundred or two hundred thousand.' 
 "Well," said he, " do as you please." I told him I would go and get the money, and I 
 went immediately to Smith, Gould, Martin & Co., got a check for a hundred thousand 
 dollars and brought it and gave it to Mr. Gould in the carriage. Mr. Gould said he 
 would stop there when he went home that night and give it to him. 
 
 [As to a subsequent interview, after the breakdown, Fisk thus testifies to what he 
 said to Mr. Corbin and his wife : ] Said I, " Do you know what you have done here, you 
 and your people?" He began to wring his hands; and "Oh," he says, " this is a hor- 
 rible position ; are you ruined?" I said I didn't know whether I was or not; and I 
 asked him again if he knew what had happened. He had been crying, and said he had 
 just heard; that he had been sure everything was all right, but that something had 
 I'lOocurred entirely different from what he had anticipated. Said I, "That don't amount 
 to anything ; we know that gold ought not to be at thiity-one, and that it would not 
 
480 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 teeth, are, depicted, and Mrs. Corbin was sent for; and for this we must 
 rely on confused and contradictory testimony, when Mrs. Corbin could 
 at once clarify it. There is great difference also between Corbin and 
 Pisk as to what Corbin told Fisk, or whether he told him anything, as 
 to Mrs. Grant's interest of $25,000. A word froni Mrs. Corbin might 
 have set these facts in a truthful and consistent light, as well for our 
 better understanding of these "causes," as for the vindication of the 
 parties. But this is denied to us. 
 
 Lastly. We have before stated that the President himself, for the first 
 time, took a special interest in the affairs of the Treasury in reference 
 to gold sales. About the 4th of September Mr. Boutwell was in Massa- 
 chusetts, and the President in New York — ^both, however, at these points 
 taking care of the government and its fiscal affairs. The President writes 
 to Mr. Boutwell a letter in which (as Mr. Boutwell swears) "he ex- 
 pressed an opinion that it was undesirable to force down the price of 
 gold. He spoke of the importance to the West of being able to move 
 their crops." Mr. Boutwell says he saw the President had " rather a 
 strong opinion to that effect; * * * that the sale of gold in any con- 
 siderable quantity might carry down the price of it; and that if the 
 price were to fall, the West would be embarrassed," &c. This letter, so 
 important, is not produced. Indeed, the most significant correspond- 
 ence is wanting in this investigation. 
 
 Now, this letter proves it to be true the President was strongly im- 
 
 be but for such performances as you have had this last week ; you know well it would 
 not if you had not failed." I knew that somebody had run a saw right into us, and 
 
 said I, " This whole d d thing has turned out just as I told you it would ; I consider 
 
 the whole party a pack of cowards, and I expected that when we came to clear our 
 hands they would sock it right into us." I said to him, " I don't know whether you 
 have lied or not, and I don't know what ought to be done with you.'' 
 
 He was on the othei side of the table, weeping and wailing, and I was gnashing my 
 teeth! "Now," he says, "you must quiet yourself." I told him I didn't want to be 
 quiet; I had no desire to ever be quiet again, and probably never should be quiet again. 
 He says, " But, my dear sir, you will lose your reason." Says I, " Speyers has already 
 lost his reason ; reason has gone out of everybody but me." I continued, " Now, what 
 are you going to do ? You have got us into this thing, and what are you going to do 
 to get out of it?" He says, "I don't know; I will go and get my wife." I said, "Get 
 her down here." The soft talk was all over. He went np stairs and they returned, 
 tottling into the room, looking older than Stephen Hopkins ! His wife and he both 
 looked like death. He was tottling just like that. (Illustrating by a trembling move- 
 ment of the body.) 
 
 Finally I said, " There is the position of the matter. We are forty miles down the 
 Delaware, and we don't know where we are. I don't know but we may be rich ; but it 
 looks devilish like as if we were poor. You have got us into this scrape, and now what 
 is going to be done ?" She said she could not think this had been done with the Presi- 
 dent's consent. She thought Boutwell had done it in violation of the strict orders of 
 the President not to sell gold. Said I, " That don't help matters at all. I can't teU 
 you where we stand." We had sold large amounts of gold, which I was afraid would 
 not go out. " Now, Hr. Corbin, what do you mean to do ?" The old man straightened 
 up in front of the table, and said, " I will go down to Washington and lay it at their 
 door ; I will fathom this thing." 
 
VIEWS OF THE MINORITY. 481 
 
 bued -with the crop theory; he had beea impressed by Corbin and 
 Gould; all pretenses that he kept them, or either of them, aloof and 
 prevented them approach upon this topic, is refuted by this letter. It 
 vas written at an opportune time to keep up gold, and, whether intended 
 or not, it was directly in and of the capital object of the conspiracy. 
 Besides, the President's letter to his Secretary had its effect. Mr. Bout- 
 well telegraphed to his assistant, Mr. Eichardson : " Send no order to 
 Butterfleld as to sales of gold until you hear from me." This was a 
 limitation of the gold sales, to sales for the sinking fund only, for Sep- 
 tember. Mr. Boutwell swears that it was a revocation of the order to 
 sell gold for September, confining the sales only to the sinking fund. 
 The suggestion of the President led him, as he says, "to countermand 
 the order," &c. 
 
 What is still more significant is a subsequent letter which Mr. Bout- 
 well produces. 
 
 This other letter was dated only a fortnight before the black Friday, 
 to wit, 12th September. The President penned it just before he left 
 upon his Pennsylvania trip. We append it as a note below.* It is full 
 of anxiety about gold sales. It is the same letter which Corbin had 
 when he assured Gould of the Executive aid. He refers to the struggle 
 of bulls and bears. He warns the Secretary when he is to arrive in New 
 York to beware — if it means anything — of the bears. That is the mean- 
 ing of it. He writes, " I think, from the lights before me, I would move 
 on without change until the 'present struggle is over.^ Mr. Boutwell swears 
 that by moving on, means, "to sell a million of gold, on alternate weeks, 
 for the benefit of the sinking fund, during the month of September." 
 This never meant the sale of gold extra, like the sale of the four millions 
 on the 24th. It meant, to keep up the price, and not to let it drop. It 
 suited — whether he intended it or not — the designs of the conspirators. 
 They acted on it. 
 
 Tiis procedure of the Executive — issuing suggestions which operated 
 
 * " New York City, Sepiember 12, 1869. 
 . Dbah Sir: I leave here to-morrow morning for Western Pennaylvania, and will not 
 reach Washington before the middle or last of next week. Had I known before making 
 my arrangements for starting that you would be in this city early this week, I would 
 have remained to meet you. I am satisfied that on your arrival you will be met by the 
 bulls and bears of Wall street, and probably by merchants, too, to induce you to sell 
 gold or pay the November interest in advance on the one side, and to hold fast on the 
 other. The fact is, a desperate struggle is now making, and each party want the gov- 
 ernment to help them out. I write this letter to advise you of what I think you may 
 expect, to put you on your guard. I think, from the lights before me, I would move 
 on without change until the present struggle is over. If you want to write me this 
 week my address will be Washington, Pennsylvania. I would like to hear your expe- 
 rience with the factions at all events, if they give you time to write. No doubt you 
 wiU have a better chance to judge than I, for I have avoided general discussion of the 
 subject. 
 
 Yours, truly, 
 
 U. S. GRANT. 
 Hon. George S. Boutwell, Secretary of the Treasury. 
 
482 GOLD PANIC INVESTIGATION. 
 
 as commands — issued by him while away from the capital, under the 
 roof of Corbin, and the iniluence of his confederates, in the midst of the 
 conflict of the money metropolis, and in a line of duty for the first and 
 only time exercised — according to Mr. Boutwell, a duty reserved to the 
 Secretary of the Treasury; or if not so reserved by law, then only be- 
 cause there is no law for the authorization of these sales — is so extraor- 
 dinary, that we are fully justified in demanding explanations from the 
 President himself. How can we investigate the "causes," and leave 
 this pre-eminent influence unrevealed? What were "the lights" before 
 the Executive to direct his path amidst the devious ways of Wall and 
 Broad street speculation? How much illumination was patriotic ? To 
 pursue an investigation to this point, and then suddenly dropping it to 
 say, ^'■from the evidence which we have, we find the President pure," is 
 equivalent, under the circumstances, to saying "the President has a 
 royal prerogative and can do no wrong, and we will not examine into 
 his conduct at all." 
 
 If, after this analysis, any one still doubts the propriety of the first 
 action of the committee in laying "these matters before the President for 
 explanation; or if any one doubts the propriety of requesting hini and 
 the other parties to give their testimony, we ask that the evidence be 
 read and all doubt will vanish. The people, who are no respecters of 
 persons, where the truth is to be shown, would not feel that their Presi- 
 dent was treated fairly if .such statements were allowed to go on record 
 and no opportunity for him to be heard. 
 
 Whatever of value this examination has for future legislation, one 
 value it has not. It has not enabled the committee with unanimity to 
 speak fully of the connection of the highest government official with 
 this extraordinary movement in gold. As the examination was in this 
 regard partial, so must be the report. 
 
 In conclusion, the minority respectfully decline to give any certificates 
 of immaculateness to any parties. The resolution under which we act 
 does not call for or compel us to do so; and, however much it may be 
 desirable in many views, we submit our report in that reticence to which 
 we were enforced by the conduct of the President and the act of the 
 majority. 
 
 The public may draw its own inferences as well from the testimony 
 as from its absence. We have none to draw; and by this statement we 
 frankly say that we make no insinuation or charge. Let the friends of 
 the Executive, if he be in any way damaged by their zeal in shielding 
 him, be held responsible for our silence. 
 
 One of the minority; Mr. Cox, desires to add for himself, in conclusion, 
 that this investigation has no utility, unless it informs the public mind 
 of the absolute necessity, even through temporary distress, and as the 
 only prevention against the recurrence of such disastrous panics, and 
 further, as the only permanent relief for trade and commerce and busi- 
 ness of all kinds, that we should return to gold and silver coin. If this 
 
VIEWS OP THE MINORITY. 483 
 
 is not taught by this investigation, then it has no lesson. The specula- 
 tion, debauchery, profligacy, and extravagance iacident to such a situa- 
 tion, ^vill go on, until it culminates in bankruptcy and poverty. 
 
 S. S. COX, 
 Bepresentative Sixth District New York. 
 
 THOS. L. JONES, 
 Bepresentative Sixth District Kentucky. 
 Washington, February 28, 1870. 
 
 ® 
 
INDEX. 
 
 MAJOBira Eepoet , 1 
 
 J^ilES B. HoDGSEiH, testimony of .".'"..'. S5 
 
 The Gold Board, its origin and operations , 35-32 
 
 The Gold Exchange Bank 29-45 
 
 The gold panic, its origin and progress 34-39 
 
 ll^jiinctlons and similar documents , 40,46-50 
 
 Certified checlis, their use aud abuse 43,44 
 
 Tenth National Bank of New York 43-45 
 
 Henry M. Benedict, testimony of. SO 
 
 The Gold Exchange Bank 51 
 
 The gold panic and its progress 53-59 
 
 John Bokneb, testimony of 59 
 
 The gold panic and its progress 59-63 
 
 Tenth National Bank of New York, and its history 61 
 
 Aleekt Sfevebs, testimony of 63 
 
 The gold panic and its progress 63-73 
 
 Jambs M. Ellis, testimony of 73 
 
 Heath & Co.'s dealings with the "clique" - 73-81 
 
 The Gold Exchange and its operations 82,83 
 
 JohnH. Stout, testimony of 84 
 
 Tenth National Bank and its operations 84-88 
 
 . Certified checks, their use and abuse 85-87 
 
 Tenth National Bank, examination thereof 87,88 
 
 Tenth National Bank and General Butterfield 89,90 
 
 lEWis A. Stimson, the gold panic 90-98 
 
 Edwin S. Chapin, testimony of 93 
 
 Tenth National Bank and certified checks 97 
 
 HenbtK. Enos, transactions as broker 100 
 
 SAMnELW. EoooocK, transactions as broker '. 108 
 
 Chables J. Osboen, testimony of 112 
 
 The gold clearing-house and itB.nse8 113 
 
 Is enjoined and relieved from injunction 116,117 
 
 JohnF. Bigelow, examines Tenth National Bank 123 
 
 BiCHABD SCHELL, testimony of 129 
 
 Effects of gold panic on general business 129 
 
 Opposes clearing-house 130 
 
 JAI GODLD, testimony of ..- 131 
 
 Transactions in |?old 131-150 
 
 Crop-transportation theory 132,151,164 
 
 Gold panic, cause and progress 132-150 
 
 Condition of Tenth National Bank, N. Y. 147 
 
 Certified checks, and their uses 147 
 
 Conversation withCorbin , 151-155 
 
 Conversations with President Grant - 152,154 
 
 Corbin's letter to President Grant 155,159 
 
 Mrs. Grant's letter to Mrs. Corbia 156,157 
 
 Corbin's trip to Washington 158 
 
 Butterfield's connection with the panic. ., 162 
 
 New York Times editorials 164,165 
 
 Gonld pays Corbin 825,000 : 168 
 
 Letters to Secretary Boutwell 372, 3'73 
 
 James Fisk, Jr., testimony of. 168 
 
 Transactions in gold 168-171 
 
 Crop-transportation, project 171,176 
 
 Boat ride and conversation with President Grant 171,178 
 
 Corbin's assurance of government aid 173,182, 183 
 
 Butterfield's connection with the panic 174,180,181 
 
 Messenger from Fisk to President Grant , 174 
 
 Mrs. Corbin's assurance of government aid 174,183 
 
 Angry interview with Mr. and Mrs. Corbin 175,176 
 
 Opinion of the clearing-house 182 
 
 O.W. PoLLAED, Corbin, Ilsk, and Gould's interview 184 
 
 VilllamB. Dodge, testimonyof - 185 
 
 Gold panic and its disastrous effects 185 
 
 Opinion on Crold Exchange Bank 186 
 
 Opinion on Gold Eoom 186 
 
 SkorgeH. Stuaet, testimony of 188 
 
 Consequences of gold panic 188 
 
 Opinion on Gold Exchange 188 
 
 Henry H. MARrm, testimonyof 190 
 
 Gold operations before and during panic , 190-202 
 
 Jaues Bbowh, testimonyof 202 
 
 Dealing with Speyers, Fisk, ia> 202-210 
 
 Opinion on Gold Board aud Gold Ezolumge Bank .,.„....»..< «,......„.. 209 
 
486 
 
 INDEX. 
 
 Page. 
 
 E. K. WiLLAKD, transactions a3 broker oio~m? 
 
 William J. Woodward, transactions as broker Sj 
 
 Hiram C. Eogehs, testimony of *23 
 
 Transactions of Gold Exchange Bank ■ax-WB 
 
 Eeceivei' appointed, and why -.- ^ 
 
 John W. Mageudeh, testimony of ~- ^ 
 
 Examination of Tenth National Bank , '■■■-■ 327-S30 
 
 William 0. Chapin, letter-carrier for Eisk 230 
 
 Thomas Sampson, carries messages from suh-treasury 333 
 
 Benjamin F. Carver, transactions as broker i 235 
 
 Joseph Seligman, transactions in banking 238 
 
 Dealings with General Butterfieia 238,239 
 
 Estimate of amount of gold in United States 241 
 
 Abel Rathbone Corbin, testimony of - - 242 
 
 Crop-transportation project 243,249 
 
 President Grant's movements, summer of '69 243,246 
 
 Corbin's letter to Grant 249,250,268 
 
 Mrs. Grant's letter to Mrs. Corbin 251,253 
 
 Transactions with Gould, bonds and gold 253,256 
 
 Interview with Fisk and Gould after panic - 262 
 
 Journey to Washington 266 
 
 Interview with President Grant 267 
 
 Writes editorial for N. Y. Times 268. 
 
 Corbin's connection with Butterfield 269,274 
 
 An intended gilt refused 270 
 
 C. C. NOKVELL, testimony of 275 
 
 The editorial furnished by Corbin for Times 275-279 
 
 ButterBeld and Gould , 280 
 
 Opinion on Gold Exchange Bank, &c 281 
 
 Henry M. Smith, transactions as broker 278-881 
 
 Gets out ii\|unctiona 286 
 
 A. A. Low, testimony of 281 
 
 General eifects of the gold panic 289-293 
 
 Opinion on Gold Exchange and bank 291 
 
 Opinion on financial policy of the Secretary 293-298 
 
 WiLLiAii Belden, transaction as broker 299-309 
 
 Daniel Butterfield, action as assistant treasurer 309,310 
 
 Transactions with Gould 314-318 
 
 Transactions with Seligman 319-332 
 
 Bonds on a gold basis 320,334 
 
 Hesigns his position 327, 328 
 
 Letter to committee , . $29 
 
 Correspondence with Secretary of the Treasury 330-339f 
 
 Letter to Hon. S. S. Cox 363 
 
 George Opdykb, testimony of 333 
 
 General efiects of gold panic 333-336 
 
 Opinion on Gold Exchange 335,336 
 
 Opinion on certifying checks 337-341 
 
 Crop-transportation theory 339 
 
 Opinions on financial policy generally 340 
 
 Hon. George S. BouTWELL, testimony of 342 
 
 General management of treasury..,. 342,351 
 
 Transactions previous to the panic 344 
 
 Conversation with President Grant 344 
 
 Telegrams, Boutwell and Butterfield 345,351-354 
 
 Crop-transportation theory 554 
 
 Tenth National Bank investigation 355,356 
 
 Opinion on certified checks 356,357,363 
 
 Letters from President Grant 358,359 
 
 President Grant on the crop-transportation theory 358,360 
 
 Table, bonds purchased by treasury 364,365 
 
 Table, sales of coin during 1869 366 
 
 Correspondence, financial , 366-384 
 
 Investigation of charges against Butterfield 383 
 
 B. C. Babtlett, writer of dispatches to Butterfield 384 
 
 Henry Johnson, carrier of dispatches 385 
 
 NiCKSON Bureill, messenger with dispatches 386 
 
 E. Carrie Cook, Washington telegraph operator 386 
 
 J. G. Garland, Washington telegraph operator 388 
 
 Charles Callendeb, testimony of 389 
 
 Examines Tenth National Bank, New York 389 
 
 Assistance to Tenth National Bank, New York 390-395 
 
 General crash of banks intended 390,391 
 
 EUSSELL A. Hills, transactions as broker 397-401 
 
 Tenth National Bank promised unlimited certification 398 
 
 Charles E. Quincey, testimony of 401 
 
 Heatk & Co.'s transactions during panic week 401-404 
 
 Heath & Co.'s transactions with Speyers 403 
 
 Jacob D. Vermilyb,. testimony of 404 
 
 Clearinghouse operations during panic week 404-410 
 
 Opinion on ccrtiiied checks 408 
 
 H. K. HiJLBUijp, testimony, of 410 
 
 Transactions as Comptroller of Currency 410-413 
 
 Examination of Tenth NfltionalBank, New York ., 410,411 
 
 Opinipii. on. certified checks --., 412 
 
 G. A. Tinker, time of sending telegrams 413-417 
 
 Eojd C. Bj\?rsra(.B« reporter ior, Snn, testimony of „. 417 
 
 Interviews Corbin, Gould, &o 417-430 
 
INDEX. 487 
 
 Page. 
 
 BOBBBT P. Bbown, carries messages, &o ^30 
 
 Augustus L. Brown, teBtimonyof • 431 
 
 Doings as receiver of Gold Exchange Bank 431-435 
 
 Compensation as receiver 433 
 
 J. A, Kekbet, Washington telegraph operator, testimony of.. 435 
 
 ItOBEBT B. Cathebwood, testimony of 437 
 
 Kefnaes to he Assisistant Treasurer ". , 337-439 
 
 Corbin works for Batterfield for the place 437-440 
 
 Hobacb Porter, testimony of 444 
 
 Groold notifies him of gold bought for him , 445 
 
 President Grant and Corbin*8 conversation , 446 
 
 Gould's Mnd oflFer to Porter 447 
 
 Corbin's letter to the President , 448 
 
 lib's. Grant's letter to Mrs. Corbin 448 
 
 The presents sent to the White House 449 
 
 MowRY S. Smith, New York telegraph operator, testimony of 449 
 
 Explanation of " gold indicator " 451 
 
 W. Hakgrave White, bookkeeper at express office, testimony of 452 
 
 Suspicious entry in express book 452-457 
 
 Samuel M. Shoemaker, manager of Adams' Express, testimony of 457 
 
 Package sent to Mrs. Grant : 457, 458 
 
 J. W. BUBSON, package sent to Mrs. Grant I....-.'../...: , 458,459 
 
 HlNOEITr BEPOBT t 461-483