(farncll UttioetBttg library 3tl;ata, Hew ^ork Cornell University Library JK1521.A3 B69 1919 Bolshevik propaganda. olin 3 1924 030 480 051 Cornell University Library The original of tiiis book is in tine Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924030480051 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA HEARINGS BEFORE A "SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY UNITED STATES SENATE SIXTY-FIFTH CONGRESS THIRD SESSION AND THEREAFTER PURSUANT TO S. RES. 439 AND 469 FEBRUARY 11, 1919, TO MARCH 10, 1919 Printed for the use of the Committee oh the Judiciary :!JI i'! WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 1919 X COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY. CHAELES A. CULBERSON, Texas, dmirman. LEE S. OVERMAN, North Carolina. KNUTE NELSON, Minnesota. DUNCAN U. FLETCHER, Florida. WILLIAM P. DILLINGHAM, Vermont. JAMES A. REED, Missouri. FRANK B. BRANDEGEE, Connecticut. HENRY F. ASHURST, Arizona. WILLIAM E. BORAH, Idaho. JOHN K. SHIELDS, Tennessee. ALBERT B. CUMMINS, Iowa. THOMAS J, WALSH, Montana. MILES POINDEXTER, Washington. HOKE SMITH, Georgia. LeBARON B. COLT, Rhode Island. WILLIAM H. KING, Utah. THOMAS STERLING, South Dakota. JOSIAH O. WOLCOTT, Delaware. C. W. JUKNEY, Clerk. F. C. Edwaeds, Assistant Clerk. Subcommittee. Mr. OVERMAN, Chair-man. Mr. KING- Mr. NELSON. Mr. WOLCOTT. Mr. STERLING. CONTENTS. Page. Text of resolution authorizing hearings 6 Excerpts from testimony of Thomas J. Tunney in German propaganda hearings 6 Excerpts from testimony of Arclilbald E. Stevenson in German prop- aganda hearings 11 Testimony of William Chapin Huntington 36, 67 Testimony of Samuel N. Harper 88 Testimony of George A. Simons 109, 141 Testimony of E. B. Dennis 163 Testimony of Robert F. Leonard 194, 199 ^Testimony of Robert M. Storey 229 Testimony in executive session 235 Testimony of Mrs. Catherine Breshkovskaya 241 Testimony of Rogers Smith 252 Testimony of 'William W. Welsh 264, 267 Testimony of Roger E. Simmons 293, 308, 339 Letter from Louis Marshall, president American Jewish Committee 378 Statement by Simon AVolf 381 Testimony of Herman Bernstein 383 Testimony of Theodor Kryshtofovich 417 Testimony of Col. Y. S. Hurbau 434, 447 Testimony of Carl W. Ackerman 462 Testimony of Louise Bryant (Mrs. John Reed) . 466 Testimony of John Reed 561 Testimony of Albert Rhys Williams 603, 649 Text of resolution extending hearings 693 Testimony of Bessie Beatty B93 Testimony of Frank Keddie 723 Testimony of Raymond Robins 763, 857, 1007 Testimony of Gregor A. Martiuszlne 896 Testimony of Frederick H. Hatzel 922 Statement of Col. V. S. Hurban 921 Testimony of Oliver M. Sayler 933 Testimony of David R. Francis 935 Letter and statement from Catherine Breshkovskaya 1032 Matters submitted by Edwin Lowry Humes 1034 Documents submitted l)y Senator Sterling 1101 Matters submitted by the Postmaster General 1110 Excerpt from " The German-Bolshevik Conspiracy " 1125 Text of Bolshevik constitution of July 10, 1918 1159 Appendix, translation of Bolshevik laws 1169 3 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. TUESDAY, rEBBtlABT 11, 1919. United States Senate, Subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary, Washington, D. C. The subcommittee met, pursuant to the call of the chairman, at 10.30 o'clock a. m., in room No. 226, Senate Office Building, Senator Lee S. Overman presiding. Present': Senators Overman (chairman). King, Wolcott, Nelson, and Sterling. The subcommittee had on February 11, 1919, concluded hearings, held under Senate resolution 307, on the subjects of pro-German propaganda and activities of the United States -Brevpers' Association and its allied interests' in the liquor business,, which were published in two volumes (2,975 pages) entitled "Brewing and Liquor Interests and German Propaganda." Senate resolution 307 was passed by the Senate on September 19, 1918, and is as follows : Whereas Honorable A. Mitchell Palmer, Custodian of Allen Property, on or about September fourteenth made the following statement : " The facts will soon ajipear which will conclusively show that twelve or fifteen German brewers of America, in association with the United States Brewers' Association, furnished the money, amounting to several hundred thousand dollars, to buy a great newspaper in one of the chief cities of the, ISTation ; and its publisher, without disclosing whose money had bought that organ of public opinion, in the very Capital of the Nation, in the shadow of the Capitol itself, has been fighting the battle of the liquor traffic. " When the traffic, doomed though it is, undertakes and seeks by these secret methods to control party nominations, party machinery, whole political parties, and thereby control the government of State and Nation, it is time the people know the truth. " The organized liquor traffic of the country is a vicious interest because it has been unpatriotic, because it has been pro-German in its sympathies and Its conduct. Around these great brewery organizations owned by rich men, almost all of them are of German birth and sympathy, at least before we entered the war, has grown up the societies, all the organizations of this country intended to keep young German immigrants from becoming real American citizens. " It is around the sangerfests and sangerbunds and organizations of that kind, generally financed by the rich brewers, that the young Germans who come to America are taught to remember, first, the fatherland, and second, America " ; And Whereas it has been publicly and repeatedly charged against the United States Brewers' Association and allied brewing companies and interests that there is in the Department of Justice and in the office of a certain United States district attorney evidence showing: That, the said United States Brewers' Association, brewing companies, and allied interests have in recent years made contributions to political cam- paigns on a scale without precedent in the political history of the country and in violation of the laws of the land; That, in order to control legislation in State and Nation they have exacted pledges from candidates to office, including Congressmen and United States Senators, before election, such pledges being on file ; 5 b BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. That, in order to influence public opinion to their ends they have heavily- subsidized the public press and stipulated when contracting for advertising space with the newspapers that a certain amount be editorial space, the literary material for the space being provided from the brewers' central office in New York ; That, in order to suppress expressions of opinion hostile to their trade and political interests, they have set in operation an extensive system of boycot- ting of American manufacturers, merchants, railroads, and other interests ; That, for the furthering of their political enterprises, they have erected a political organization to carry out their purposes ; That they were allied to powerful suborganizations, among them the German-American Alliance, whose charter was revoked by the unanimous vote of Congress ; the National Association of Commerce and Labor ; and the JIanufacturers and Dealers' Associations, and that tliey ha^e their ramifica- tions in other organizations apparently neutral in character ; That they have on file political surveys of States, counties, and districts tabulating the men and forces for and against them, and that they have paid large sums of money to citizens of the United States to advocate their cause and interests, including some in the Government employ ; That they have defrauded the Federal Government by applying to their political corruption funds money which should have gone to the Federal Treasury in taxes ; That they are attempting to build up in the country through the control of such organizations as the United States societies and by the manipulation of the foreign language press, a political influence which can be turned to one or the other party, thus controlling electoral results ; That they, or some of their organizations, have pleaded nolo contendere to charges filed against them and have paid fines aggregating large sums of money : Therefore, be it Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate, or any subcom- mittee thereof, is hereby authorized and directed to call upon the Honorable A. Mitchell Palmer, Alien Property Custodian, and the Department of Justice and its United States district attorneys to produce the evidence and documents relating to the eharses herein mentioned, and to subpoena any witnesses or documents relating thereto that it may find necessary, and to make a report of the results of such investigation and what is shown thereby to the Senate of the United States as promptly as possible. The present hearings are held under the following resolution (S. Ees. 439) passed by the Senate on February 4, 1919 : Resolved, That the authority of the Committee on the Judiciary conferred by S. Res. 307 be, and the same hereby is, extended so as to include the power and duty to inquire concerning any efforts being made to propagate in this country the principles of any party exercising or claiming to exercise authority in Russia, whether such efforts originate in this country or are incited or financed from abroad, and, further, to inquire into any effort to incite the overthrow of the Government of this country or all government by force, or by the destruc- tion of life or property, or the general cessation of industry. Maj. Edwin Lowry Humes, of the Judge Advocate General's Department, United States Army, detailed by the "War Department to assist the subcommittee in the hearings held under Senate resolu- tion 307, appeared as counsel for the subcommittee in the present hearings. (The following excerpts from the testimony of Mr. Thomas J. Tunney, an inspector of police, police department New York City, before this subcommittee on Tuesday, January 21, 1919, pages 2679- 2681 and 2684-2687 of Volume II of the hearings entitled " Brewing and Liquor Interests and German Propaganda," were ordered in- serted in this record at this point :) Mr. TuNNET. * * * We apprehended and secured evidence against Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman, and they were subsequently convicted for trying to defeat the selective-draft act. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. i Senator Overman. Did you find a list of those people? . Mr. TuNNEY. Yes; we found this original letter that was used in the testi- mony in the Hindu case in San Francisco, and was also used against Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman in the trial in New York. Senator Oveeman. Where is Emma Goldman now? Mr. TuNNET. She is in prison at Jefferson City, Mo. Senator Nelson. In a safe place? Mr. TuNNEY. Yes. She was ordered by the trial judge to be deported after her term expires — both she and Berkman. Senator Overman. What Is her native country? Mr. TuNNEY. I think she is a native of Russia. Senator Overman. She is ordered by the court to be deported after her term is up? Mr. TuNNEY. Yes; that was ordered by the trial judge with regard to both Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman. There was some doubt as to whether she was married to an American citizen or not. Senator Overman. What age woman is she? Mr. TuNNEY. She is a woman about 46 years of age ; a very able and Intelli- gent woman and a very fine speaker. Senator Overman. I know something about her, of course. How long has she been in this country? Mr. TuNNEY. Nearly 30 years. Senator Overman. She is a fine speaker, you say? Mr. TuNNEY. Yes ; she is a very fine speaker. Senator Nelson. She speaks good English? Jlr. TuNNEY. She speaks English very fluently. In fact, I have heard news- paper men say that she is a master of the English language. She and Berkman defended themselves on their trial, and they put in a very able defense, and their cross-examination of the prospective jurors was particularly noticeable. Senator Overman. Is she a handsome woman? Mr. TuNNEY. No ; she is not. I would not call her a very homely looking woman, either. She was a rather good-looking woman when she was young. She is a very stout woman. Leon Trotsky, before he left New York, was a great associate of Emma Gold- man and Alexander Berkman. Senator Overman. That is the Russian leader? Mr. TuNNEY. Yes. He called a meeting of the German socialists and Russians at the Harlem River Park Casino, at One hundred and twenty-second Street and Second Avenue, on the night of March 26, 1917, after the breaking oJ¥ of the diplomatic relations between the United States and Germany, and he spoke in both German and Russian that night, and this was the substance of his speech. Senator Sterling. Who is that? Mr. TuNNEY. Leon Trotsky. Senator Overman. The foreign minister of the Bolsheviki. Mr. Tunney. He said : " I am going back to Russia " — he was going the next morning with about 35 or 40 of his associates, the names of whom, I believe, the Military Intelligence has. There was a report submitted to Gen. Churchill, and previous to that to Col. Van Deman. He said : " I am going back to Russia to overthrow the provisional government and stop the war with Germany and allow no Interference from any outside govern- ments." And he said : " I want you people here to organize and keep on organizing until you are able to overthrow this damned, rotten, capitalistic Government of this country." He did leave the next morning, with his followers, on the Norwegian- American Line ; and from that date until June 1 about 450 Russians left, with various leaders, and they also went back there to roast the American commis- sion that was over there at that time. Two of the men who are now in the government over there were connected with newspaper publications in New York. One of them was named William Schatoff, and is commissioner of railroads. Senator Nelson. Commissioner of railroads where? Mr. Tunney. In Russia, now. Also, I understand, he is the new executioner there in the place of Uritski, who was assassinated by a woman some time ago in St. Petersburg. 8 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. There were some American boys coming out of St. Petersburg, and one of them told me that he came up to them and spoke English to them, and said to give his regards to Broadway, and had the train go back to St. Petersburg, and kept them there until the next morning. The other fellow, Wallen, was connected with the publications Novymlr and Golatruda, Russian publications. Senator NELS0^^ Russian publications in this country? Mr. TuNNET. Yes. Senator Sterling. Who else, may I ask. Inspector, accompanied Trotsky at this time? Mr. TuNNEY, I can not tell you the names. Senator, but the Military Intelli- gence has a complete list of them, or a copy of them. I can get a copy if they have not, from New York. Senator Steeling. Did Lincoln Steffens accompany them? Mr. TuNNET. No ; no Americans accompanied them at that time. They were all Russians, but they were well-known anarchists, well known to some of my men. Senator Overman. I wish you would repeat the statement that Trotsky made to them before lie left this country. Mr. Tunnet. He said to keep on their organization here and they would overthrow the Government of this country. Senator Nelson. And knock out the capitalists? Mr. TuNNEY. Yes. He called It the " damned, rotten, capitalistic Govern- ment.'' Those are the words that he used. Senator Overman. Capitalistic Government? Mr. TuNNEY. Yes. Senator Ovekman. Do you know whether they followed his ad\ice, or whether they are going on with that work? Mr. TuNNEY^. Yes. I would not say that it is very effective, but that is Ihe talk amongst a lot of the same folloAvers now, sometimes in public and some- times in secret conferences that they have. Senator Nelson. You have a nest of those anarchists yet in New York, have you not? Sir. TuNNEY. Yes, Senator ; there are a lot of them there yet. I might say that five of them were, subsequent to the conviction of Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman, apprehended for abusing the President and the Govern- ment of the United States, and in .Tune they were convicted of violating the espionage act ; and they were followers of Emma Goldman and were sentenced to 20 years apiece. That was .lust a few months ago. Senator Overman. What was Trotsky doing in this country before? Mr. TuNNEY. He was ahvays talking to the Russians on organization. He was connected with that ne^^•spape^ publication, the Novymir, and was very ofteH delivering lectures both to Russians and Germans on anarchy while he was here — radical socialism. He believed in the overthrow of all governments. Senator Nelson. He spoke German as well as Russian? Mr. TuNNEY. Yes; very fluently. Senator Nelson. What was his nationality? Mr. TuNNEY. He is a Russian. Senator Nelson. AVas he a Slav or a German? Mr. TuNNEY'. He is a Russian. Senator Nelson. A Russian? Mr. TuNNEY'. A Russian .Tew ; but they do not believe in any religion, of course. They are just as much opposed to the Jewish religion as any other. They call themselves " Internationalists." Senator Overman. Did he speak English as well as Russian and German? Mr. TuNNEY. He spoke very little English. Maj. Humes. You say that these followers of Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman were convicted and sentenced to 20 years? Mr. TuNNEY. Yes. Maj. Humes. Do you remember what the sentence was that was imposed on Emnta Goldman and Berkman? Mr. TuNNEY. They were sentenced to two years each, which was the maxi- mum sentence under the law at that time, the espionage act not being at that time in effect. I also remember that the sentence imposed on the bomb plotters was a year and a half each, which was the maximum sentence under the law at that time ; and then it was a subterfuge to get to try them under that, because it was never BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. \) intended for criminals, but for legitimate shippers of explosives — in other words, that they should notify the common carriers that they were shipping explosises and comply with the Federal laws on that subject. It * « 4; 3(( 4: * Maj. Humes. What do you know about activities, since the armistice, on the part of these people, the anarchists and others? Mr. TUNNEY. They are very active. They hold secret meetings and they plan to organize and disseminate propaganda by means of newspapers, small pamphlets, and letters, and later on adopt other methods, which they have not decided on up to the present time. Senator Stealing. Is there evidence of renewed activity ou the part of these anarchists, Mr. Tunney, since the armistice was signed? Mr. Tunney. There is. Senator ; there is evidence, but hardly sufficient to proceed against them up to the present time, with the right kind of witnesses. You sometimes get this information direct from a secret agent that you can not get him to testify to, because it takes years to get on the inside to find out cer- tain things. You destroy his evidence after you use it in one case, and probably jeopardize his life. Sometimes people think a man's life does not amount to much if he accomplishes a whole lot of good ; that is, a man is willing to give up his life for the cause of his country. Maj. Humes. Do you know anything about the activities of Lenine in this country? Mr. Tunney. No ; I never found any of Lenine's connection here, never ; but I do know about Trotsky and the other people. Senator Nelson. How old a man was Trotsky? Mr. TUiXNEY. I should judge Trotsky was a man, when he left here, of about 35 years of age. Senator Nelson. What was his appearance? Mr. Tunney. He was a typical Russian ; black, bushy, curly hair, and very radical looking in appearance as well as in speech. Senator Nelson. 'Was he a tall man or a short man? Mr. Tunney. No ; he was of medium height. I should judge he was about 5 feet 6 or 5 feet 7. Senator Overman. Was he employed In the hotels? Mr. Tunney. No. I have heard that story. He used to write articles and probably did take on different jobs. I think he used to write articles for various Russian newspapers here. Senator Overman. Did he have any other employment? Mr. Tunney. Not that I know of. Senator Overman. How long was he in this country? Mr. Tunney. He was only in New York for a few months before he left. He had traveled somewhat through the United States. What he did in the other cities I do not know. I know only what he did in New York. Senator Steeling. Did your activities lead you to investigate any newspapers in New York or anywhere else? Mr. Tunney. No ; no direct investigation. From time to time those foreign newspaper investigations were turned over to men who understood the language. Senator Nelson. Did you ever do anything in connection with Viereck's " Fatherland" ? Mr. Tunney. No ; I did not. Senator Overman. Who owns the paper now that Trotsky was connected with? Mr. Tunney. Weinstein is one of the editors, and a fellow by the name of Brailowsky. Senator Overman. Really the same man thrt owned it when Trotsky Mr. Tunney. Weinstein was associated with Trotsky in running it at the time Trotsky was here. Senator Overman. And he is now running it? Mr. Tunney. Yes ; he is now running that paper. Senator Sterling. Did you at that time seize or take into j'our possession, Mr. Tunney, any material at newspaper offices which was meant for publication in newspapers of an anarchistic nature? Mr. Tunney. You mean in the American newspapers, Senator? Senator Sterling. Yes. Mr. Tunney. No ; I did not, with the exception of Emma Goldman's " Blother Earth," and tlie " Blast," which were published in-Englrnd — two anarchistic pub- 10 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. lications. In fact, I never found any of the American or the English papers connected with this movement at all. Senator Nelson. Did Trotsky appear to be a man of education or ability? Mr. TuNNEY. That was his reputation among the Russian people who speak Engll.sh, that he was a man of ability among his own people, and quite a leader of men. Senator Steeling. Did you ever hear him speak, yourself? Mr. TUNNEY. I did not. Senator. I saw him, though. But this information, that I am testifying to, was by one of my o^^•n men, not a stool pigeon, but a policeman who secured this information that I have testified to, and upon which he based his reports at that time. That was turned over at that time to the Military Intelligence, shortly after he made his speech, and I think they turned it over to the State Department. That is on information, however. I do know Trotsky was taken nff the steamer at Halifax and detained for a couple of weeks. And while he was detained there people in New Y(]rk held a protest meeting and demanded his release, and I think they sent a telegram to the State Department in Washington at that time — some of the other radicals did — and some time subsequent to that he was released. Senator Overman. AVhat was the size of the meeting, do you remember, that made the protest ? Mr. TuNNEY. There were about 400 or 500 present. It was in a place called the Lyceum. 64 East Fourth Street. New York. It was in April, 1917. after the declaration of war. But there were over 1,000 present at the meeting the night before he sailed from New York, at the Harlem River Park Casino. Emma Goldman and Berkman were also present that nit;lit and listened to him speak, f'apt. Lester. Do yon know how long Trotsky was in this country altogether? Mr. Tt'NNEY. No : I know he was in New York only a few months. I do not know how long he was in this country altogether. Senator ()vee:man. Do you know who presided over that big meeting in which he made a speech? I\Ir. TUNNEY. ^Vho was the chairman, do you mean? Senator Ovekman. Yes. Mr. TuNNEY. I really do not know, but I think it was a man named Abra- hams, who was subsequently convicted and sentenced to prison for 20 years for violation of the espionage act. But I can find that out, I can get the names of those A^ho were there. Senator Overman. Did you have occasion to investigate the I. W. W. any? Mr. TuNKEY. Yes ; in the early part of the European war they were making a bomb to kill a couple of men here in the United States — three of the I. W. W's. who were also associated with the anarchistic movement. Those men were Carron. Berg, and Hanson. While making this bomb it prematurely exploded and killed themselves, in an apartment house. One hundred and fourth Street. It blew the front out of the building and killed the three of them, and killed a woman up on the next floor. I might add that this fellovir Berg had a sister known as Louise Berg, also referred to as " Dynamite Louise," who went back shortly after Trotsky, with one or the other Russian bunch, to blow up some of the officials in Russia. Senatoi- Overman. Berg was one of the three conspirators engaged in the manufactui-e of bombs? Mr. TuNNEY. Yes. There was a conspiracy to kill three prominent men in this country at one time, and as many thereafter as they could. Senator (Overman. Do you know who were the prominent men they had in view? Mr. TuNNEY. I do. Senator Overman. Who were they? Mr. TuNNEY. John D. Rockefeller, sr., and John D. Rockefeller, jr. It was also discussed amongst them at that time that in order to wipe out families there was no good in killing one or two in the family, that they should kill them all, even to the children, and they used to talk from that time that the best way to do it was to get servants in the employ of the households of these prominent men, so as to get a line exactly on what the family was composed of and what it consisted of. Senator Overman. Have you noticed the carrying of the red flag in New, York? Mr. TuNNEY. No ; they stopped carrying that. They passed a local ordinance prohibiting its being carried. They used to carry it at all meetings. Senator Overman. What effect does that red flag have on a crowd? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 11 Mr. TuNNEY. It has the effect of creating a feeling on the part of Americans that they would like to assassinate everybody carrying the red flag; or at least, a large number of them feel that way. Senator Overman. What effect does it have on the people who are in sym- pathy with carrying the red flag? Mr. Ttjnney. It simply enthuses them, and they indulge in cheering and , waviug it in the air. Senator Ovebman. It inflames them? Mr. TuNNEY. Yes; and all those who are in sympathy with (hem. As soon as the carrying of the red flag was stopped they started in to \Aear red neckties and sometimes red flowers in their button holes. Senator Nelson. Do you not think that the carrying of the red flag tends to promote breaches of the p'.>ace? Mr. TuNNEY. It does ; because it antagonizes Americans who are opposed to them, and naturally there is a conflict right away. Americans claim they only want one flag here, and th it is the Stars and Stripes. Seantor Steeling. The red flag is usually understood to be the emblem of anarchy ? Mr. TuNNEY. Yes ; it is the emblem of anarchy. They sometimes call it Internationalism. There are some modern Socialists who do not believe in the red flag. The radical Socialists do not believe in any form of government at all ; their motto is, " Do as you like," and everybody do the same ; they have no regard for law, and they do not believe in law. Senator Overman. One of their creeds is " Down with capital " ? Mr. TuNNEY. " Down with capital and Government." They claim capital is responsible for all government. They blame the churches for standing in their way. They sometimes say they would like to destroy the churches. I met a man one night some time ago who claimed the only way to destroy every build- ing was to blow it down with dynamite. There was another man present who said he did not believe in destroying buildings of ai't and science and where literature vras kept, but all other buildings he would destroy. He differed to that extent from the other fellow.. Senator Nelson. How many of those anarchists and those radicals, I. W. W.'s and anarchists, have you in New York? As nearly as you can tell, how many are there? Mr. Tunney. Do you mean. Senator, who belong to organizations or associ- ations? Senator Nelson. No ; I mean that belong to such organizations or believe in that gospel. Senator Overman. Who sympathize with them. Senator Nelson. Yes ; who sympathize with them. Mr. Tunney. I believe there are 12,000 or 15,000 in New York. I mean those who sympathize with the real radical movement. I should say we probably have 50,000 who more or less sympathize with them. Senator Nelson. They are mostly foreigners, are they not? Mr. Tunney. Mostly foreigners. Senator Nelson. From what part of the old country? Mr. Tunney. The three principal nationalities that they represent are Rus- sians, Spaniards — I am talking now about the anarchist group — and the Italians, mixed up with some Germans. There are a few radical Irishmen and English- men and a few Americans. There are very few of these English-speaking people with the exception of — well, there is a very small percentage of them that mix up with the real anarchistic groups. Senator Nelson. Are there many Americans mixed up with them? Mr. Tunney. Very few. (The following excerpts from the testimony of Mr. Archibald E. Stevenson, in Volume II of the hearings before the same subcommit- tee entitled "Brewing and Liquor Interests and German Propa- ganda," were ordered inserted in this record:) [From testimony taken on Wednesaay, January 22, 1919, pages 2715, 2716, 2717, and Mr. Stevenson. * * * With the declaration of war by the United States the raison d'§tre for the Emergency Peace Federation and the American Neutral Conference CJommittee ceased to exist, and they became defunct. 12 BOLSHEVIK pkopaga:sda. However, the movement continued to become more radical, and on August 4, 1917, the I'eoplt's Council of America for Democracy and Peace was organ- ized, with offices at 2 AVest Thirteenth Street, New York City. Among the officers and executive committee are found Louis P. Lochner, Leila Faye Secor, Rebecca Shelley, Scott Xearing, Jacob Panken — who, by the way, is an extremely radical speaker, and a judge of the municipal court in New York City ; Aigern in Lee. socialist alderman, New York City ; 5Iax Eastman ; Emily Greene BaU h ; Judah L. Magnes ; Morris Hillquit ; Eugene V. Debs, who is now serving a sentence for violation of the espionage act ; Irving St. John Tucker, who was just convicted with Victor Berger for violation of the same act ; and the treasurer of tliis organization is David Starr Jordan. The advent of tl.is organization was hailed with enthusiasm by the German propagandists, and wide publicity was given to it in the German organs, such as Issues and Events, The Fatherland, etc. The object, of course, was to discourage the military activities of the United States and to bring about peace. In a telegram which was sent by Leila Faye Secor to President Wilson they stated that their membership is 1,800,000. Senator Nelson. Evidently these organizations were all in opposition to Gen. Pershing's organization over in France? Mr. Ste\tsxson. That is certainly the impression that one might get, Senator. This telegram to President Wilson states : " The organizing committee of the Peojile's Council of America, now repre- senting 1,800,000 consituents, believe that a combination of world events makes it Imperative that Congress speak in no uncertain terms on the question of peace and war." Senator Wolcott. What is the date of that telegram? Mr. Steve>:son. This was in August, 1917. Senator Nelsox. After we entered the war? Senator Wolcott. After Congress had spoken. Senator Nelson. Yes ; we spoke in April, did we not? Senator Wolcott. Yes. Mr. Stevenson (continuing reading) : " The eminent position of our country among the Allies and the democratic members of our Government, and the lives and the future happiness of the young manhood of our Nation all demand that Congress should no longer re- main silent and inactive on what is now the supreme interest of mankind, how to bring a just and lasting peace into the world. * * * " The Russian people are united for peace, based on the formula which is gaining acceptance everywhere : No forcible annexations, no punitive indem- nities, and free development for all nationalities. * * * " Senator Wolcott. They might also have added : "And victory for Ger- many "? Mr. Stevenson (continuing reading) : " Thus we have the representative assemblies of Russia, Germany, and Eng- land debating peace terms while only the American Congress remains sijent in this fateful war. " Forward-looking men and women throughout the world are looking expect- antly to Congress. Democracy is shamed by your silence." That was a telegram addressed by this organization to President Wilson personally. This organization is still in operation, and they held a dinner last Monday evening in New York City, at which Scott Nearing presided, and they determined to flood the country with handbill propaganda, because their litera- ture has been denied the use of the mails. Senator Wolcott. What have they in mind now? What is the nature of their propaganda now? Mr. Stevenson. They are taking up the league of nations. They are seeking the amnesty of all political prisoners. They do not want any military estab- lishment here. It is a very mixed type of propaganda. I do not know exactly what they are doing. Senator King. It is practically the overthrow of our republican form of government, and the establishment of a^ Senator Nelson. Bolshevik government? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 13 Senator King. Yes. Mr. Stevenson. There are a large number of persons connected with tlils organization that sympathize with the Bolshevik and Soviet form of govern- ment. Senator King. Class government is what they want. Mr. Stevenson. I think we shall have to wait until we see their propaganda before we know exactly what they are doing. Senator Wolcott. There's no telling what they are going to do? Mr. Stevenson. I do not think so. The outgrowth of this People's Council was the Liberty Defense Union, with offices at 138 West Thirteenth Street, New York City, in which there is a curious mixture of intelligentsia and anarchists, radical socialists and- Senator Wolcott. What do you men by "intelligentsia" — intellectuals? Mr. Stevenson. Intellectuals. Senator Nelson. Senator, it means those anarchists who confine their opera- tions to brain storms and not to physical force. Mr. Stevenson. Among the members of this organization were the Rev. John Haynes Holmes ; Scott Nearing ; Elizabeth Gurley Flinn, who is well known as an I. W. W. ; Max Eastman ; Kate Richards O'Hare — and, by the way, there is an extremely interesting connection. Kate Richards O'Hare is now serving a sentence for violation of the espionage act, but she was an associate of Nicho- las Lenine in the International Bureau, the People's House, in Brussels before the war, in 1914. Senator Wolcott. This question has been running through my mind, Mr. Stevenson : Is it not a fact that these people, after all their efforts and agitation and the expenditure of a great deal of labor and emotional energy, after all did not make any kind of an impression at all on the plain, common-sense Amer- ican people — speaking by and large, I mean ; they did not make any dents, did they? Mr. Stevenson. I think if you really mean the American people, I should say no. Senator. Senator Wolcott. That is what I mean. I mean the ordinary American citizen. Mr. Stevenson. But it is a fact that Senator Wolcott. Of course, they can make some trouble here and there in spots ; but, taking the great body of the American people, were they not too level headed to be influenced by this outfit? Mr. Stevenson. We must remember. Senator, that the American people — - and by that I mean really American people — are not present in very large num- bers in our industrial centers. They have made a very great impression on the foreign element, which we will develop in the progress of the radical movement. I have brought in this pacifist movement in this way because of its direct connection with the subsequent radical movement, which is the thing which is of most importance before the country to-day. In connection with this Liberty Defense Union, Amos Pinchot was also a member ; Eugene V. Debs ; Henry Wadsworth Dana, a late professor of Colum- bia University ; David Starr Jordan ; Abram Shiplacoff, a Socialist assembly- man in New York ; James H. Maurer, of the Pennsylvania Federation of Labor ; and a large number of other persons of similar character. The result of the Ford peace mission was the establishment of an interna- tional committee of women for permanent peace, which was organized at The Hague in 1915. They organized a special branch for the United States and that branch had a subsidiary in New York City, which is now known as the Women's International League. It is rather interesting to note that at a meeting held on the 28th of November in New York City by this league, among the other literature which was dis- seminated was a pamphlet by a man known as Louis T. Fraina, entitled " Bol- shevism Conquers," and the meeting resulted in a riot by some unattached sol- diers that did not like the general tenor of the meeting. Senator Nelson. They broke it up? Mr. Stevenson. Mrs. Henry Villard, the mother of Oswald Garrison VlUard, was the honorary chairman ; Crystal Eastman was the chairman ; and Prof. Emily Greene Balch was also a member of that organization. ******* Before going into the radical movement, I think it might be wise to define the three principal kinds of radical thought which go to make up the radical move- 14 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ment and which are merging in the development of Bolshevism. If you would care for me to give a brief theoretical analysis, I will do so. Senator Nelsox. Yes ; but be brief. . Senator King. Tes ; I was just asliing a member of the committee here whether that would be relevant to the issues which we were to investigate. Would the radical movement now have anything to do with the German propa- ganda or the investigation of the activities of the brewers? Senator Nelson. I think so. I think they are still carrying on that propa- ganda now. Senator King. If that is traceable, of course, to the German propaganda, or is a part of the Germ^an propaganda, I think that would be relevant. Other- wise, I do not see its relevancy. Let me ask you, Mr. Stevenson, is it your contention that this is a part of the German propaganda? Jlr. Stevensox. I think it is a result of the German propaganda. I call your attention to these numbers of Issues and Events, which is a ijropaganda maga- zine. They begin to sive publicity to Leon Trotsky here. [Indicating.] There is a history of Leon Trotsky in this magazine. IFrom testimony taken on Wednesday, January 22, 1919, pages 2729, 2737, 2738, 2739, and 2740 :] Mr. Stevenson. The corollary of the propaganda which was mentioned this morning, and in which a large number of tlie persons engaged in the pacifist organizations have taken part and now take part, is what may be generally classified as the radical movement, which is developing sympathy for the Bol- sheviki movement, and which in many quarters constitutes a revolutionary movement among the radical element in this country. Senator King.. Your contention is that this is the result of German propa- ganda, had its origin in Germany, and therefore would be properly investigated under the resolution of this committee? Mr. Stevenson. Yes. The Bolsheviki movement is a branch of the revolu- tionary socialism of Germany. It had its origin in tbe philosophy of Marx and its leaders were Germans. Senator King. And is this German socialism of this country and BoLshevism of this country the product of or taught by these organizations to which you referred this morning, in part? Mr. Stevenson. The membership of those organizations was in large part made up of persons either members of the Socialist Party or in sympathy with it. Senator Nelson. You mean that the German socialism was imported into this country by these men? Jlr. Stevenson. By some of these men. Senator Nelson. That is what I mean. Mr. Stevenson. Yes. A A * :^ V * * Senator Overman. Here is an exhibit that you put in, Mr. Stevenson, called the California Defense Bulletin, tbe issue of December 2. 1918. It says : " THE SPREAD OF BOLSHEVISM. " Great things are about to happen. In fact something has happened that has sent a thrill of joy through the heart of every true internationalist. " Germany has followed the example set by Russia ; the Kaiser and his mili- tarist gang have been pulled down from their high horses, and the workmen and soldiers have taken over the reins of the government. " The inspiring news was flashed through the world that the soldiers and sailors had joined the revolution, thus avoiding a bloody and long-drawn civil war. It is apparent that the Russian Bolsheviki had carried on an agitation among the German soldiers as well as among the civilian population, and the results are such that we feel inclined to tip our hats to the Bolsheviki and excJaim : ' Well done, brave soldiers of the class war.' " But Bolshevism is contagious. It is now reported that a revolution is brew- ing in Holland. There have been strikes and riots in Switzerland, and In Copenhagen, Denmark. In Sweden there has been a manifesto issued calling the workers and soldiers to unite and organize along the same line as in Russia. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 15 , "The writer is acquainted with conditions, and is aware of the sentiment among those opposing the Swedish Army, and it is safe to predict that the transformation, or rather the revolution will be accomplished without much bloodshed. Our Swedish fellow workers have for years carried on a systematic agitation against militarism, and have gone into the barracks and training camps distributing literature — and that they have been successful nobody who knows the real state of affairs can deny. It is only a question of time, and it may be nearer than we can realize when the Swedes will , straighten up and throw the profiteers and militarists oflf their backs. They are slow in starting, but when they set out to do anything, they usually do a perfect job. " Let the ' patriotic profiteers' howl and shout tJiemselves hoarse. Let -tliem summon all their stony-faced judges and their hypocritic pulpiteers — it will be to no avail. They can not stop the onward march of labor. The day of indus- trial freedom is drawing near. Get ready and do your part to speed the day." Does that indicate, taken in connection with what you have referred to in these other publications, that there is an organization In this country, now, to bring about a Bolsheviki revolution? Mr. Stevenson. I believe that is the desire of a number of the leaders. I would not want to say it as definitely proved. Senator Overman. These papers indicate that that is going on now? Mr. Stevenson. All of these papers seem to indicate that. The other publications of the Socialist Labor Party are the following news- papers: Arbetaren (Swedish), Volksfreund und Arbelter-Zeitung (German), Proletareets (Lettish), A Munkas (Hungarian), Radnucka Borba (South Slavonian). I believe they are also planning to have a Jewish paper. Senator Nelson. They are carrying on this propaganda? Mr. Stevenson. Yes. Senator Oveeman. So that it looks as if it were nearly world-wido — this so- cialism and Bolshevism and syndicalism. This appears to show that this propa- ganda is prevalent throughout the whole -world, advocating a revolution in every country in the world— even in Sweden and Switzerland? Mr. Stevenson. Yes. The prosecution of the I. W. W. enlisted the sympathy and support of the Socialist Party of America. This was shown by an interesting leaflet printed in Yiddish, which was picked up in the I. W. W. hall, 74 St. Mark's Place, New ■ York, in the middle of December last year. The translation of it is as follows: " Socialists attention : " The National Executive Committee of the Socialist Party not long a'go de- clared at a session that the socialist party repeat the declaration of support of all the economic organizations of the working class and declares that listings, deportations and persecutions of the I. W. W. constitute an attack upon evei-y American working man. " And we call attention to the fact that the charges against the I. W. W. on the ground that they burnt crops and forests and destroyed a lot of property having been submitted to a legal test turned out to be all lies. " The socialist party has always lent its material and moral support to or- ganized labor everywhere, and whenever attacked by the capitalistic class, .whatever was the character of the organizations. We therefore pledge our- selves to support the I. W. AV.'s who are to be tried at Chicago and other places, asking for a fair trial and without prejudice, and we ask our members to do everything in their power to help the I. W. W. by informing the public of the true facts, and also to refute the falsehoods and misinformation wherewith the capitalist press poisons and prejudices public sentiment against these workers who are chosen for destruction just as other workmen and leaders have been repeatedly doomed to destruction by the same capitalists. " Socialists collect funds and send to the I. W. W. " Bring the matter up in your local organizations and branch meetings and ask them to send two delegates to the I. W. W. Defense Committee that meets every Sunday at 3 p. m. 74 St. Mark's Place, New York. "All contributions are sent by the above mentioned address to the general office at Chicago. . . " I W W. Defense Committee, 1001 West Madison St., Chicago, 111. "All checks to be made payable to W. D. Haywood, general secretary " Greetings of the I. W. W. Defense Committee of New York." 16 BOLSHEVIK TT.OPXGANDA. That centers attention on the Socialist Party in America and on socialism in general. I should like to point out that socialism may be divided roughly into two principal kinds, one of which is the conservative evolutionary branch, which is sometimes known as the opportunist or possibilist, which desires to bring about its purpose throufjh parlianieutiiry action and tlie power of the ballot. The second branch, which is the revolutionary socialism, otherwise called impossl- bilist, is the official German socialism, and is the father of the Bolsheviki move- ment in Russia, and consequently the radical movement which we have in this country to-day has its origin in Germany. Senator Nelso>;. Is that a part of their kultur? Mr. Stevenson. It was one of the manifestations of their kultur, I believe. Senator Overman. You used the word " impossibilist." Why do they call it that? Mr. Stevenson. Because they found it impossible to cooperate with existing forms of government. Senator Overman. And they wanted to tear down the existing form of gov- ernment? Jlr. Stevenson. Yes. The capture of the Socialist Party in America in April, 1917, by the revolu- tionary socialist element is of particular interest because the members of the committee which brought in the majority report, the committee on war and militarism of that convention, had for its leader Kate Richards O'Hare, and Mr. Victor Berger was a member of that committee. Both of these persons were delegates from the United States to the International Socialist Bureau at Brussels, which carried out its world-wide propaganda from the People's House in Brussels. Representatives from other countries were Nicholas Lenine, the leader of Russian Bolshevism, and Rosa Luxemburg. Senator Nelson. Lately deceased? Mr. Steve>'son. Lately deceased ; who was one of the leaders of the German Bolshevist element known as the Spartacus group, and Karl Liebknecht. Senator Overman. He is also deceased? Mr. Stevenson. Yes ; he is also deceased. Senator Overman. Was Berger in the same convention with Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg? Mr. Stevenson. Yes ; he was a delegate to the same bureau, and represented the United States. Senator Nelson. Oh, he belonged to the same group. Senator Overman. I know he did ; but I did not know that he had attended the convention over there with them. Mr. Stevenson. The adoption of the majority report of the committee on war and militarism at that convention resulted in the withdrawal from the party of the conservative element, of the evolutionary socialists, such as Charles Edward Russell and .John Spargo, who have since done valuable service- to the Government in the prosecution of the war. Senator Overman. AVhere was that convention held? Mr. Stevenson. At St. Louis. Senator Overman. When? Mr. Stevenson. April 7 to 14, 1917. Senator Overman. Messrs. Russell and Spargo quit when they adopted those resolutions? Mr. Stevenson. Yes. Senator Overman. And did valuable service for the Government? Mr. Stevenson. Yes. At this convention the following resolution was adopted : " Now, therefore, be it resolved, that the socialist party being the political arm of the working class in its fight for industrial freedom, and its power rest- ing mainly in its clear-cut, specific declaration of political and economic prin- ciples, rather than in the number of votes passed for party candidates, and the- purpose of the socialist movement being the emancipation of the working class from economic servitude, rather than the election to office of candidates, it is,, therefore, declared to be the sense of this convention that all state organiza- tions facing the solution of this question be urged to remember that to fuse- or to compromise is to be swallowed up and utterly destroyed; that they be urged to maintain the revolutionary position of the socialist party and main,- tain in the utmost possible vigor the propaganda of socialism, unadulterated by BOaSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. IIT association of office seekers, to tlie end that the solidarity of the working class, the principles of international socialism may continue to lav the foundations for the social revolution. " The social revolution, not political office, is the end and aim of the socialist party. No compromLse, no political tradins." * * * * * * * (From testimony taken on Thursday, January 23, 1919, pages 2751, 2752, 2753-2772. and 2776-2779:] Maj. Humes. Mr. Stevenson, will you now resume, please, where you left off last night? Mr. Stevenson. If I remember correctly, I was just giving an illustration of the socialist expressions from the Radical Review of Tuly, 1918. Senator Overman. Where is that magazine published? Mr. Stevenson. It is published in New York, Senator, by the Radical Review Publishing Association, 202 East Seventeenth Street, New York City. Senator Overman. Has it a large circulation? Mr. Stevenson. I do not know what the circulation of it is. It is gotten up in very good style and has no advertisements. It is circulated at all of the radical meetings. At any of the meetings you attend you will pick up a copy of this magazine. ■ Senator Overman. Do you know who is financing all of these associations of the Bolsheviki, the Socialists, and so on? Mr. Stevenson. I was coming to that with regard to the Bolsheviki, Senator. Senator Overman. All right ; do not let me anticipate, then. Just go ahead. Mr. Stevenson (reading) : " True to the dictate of necessity, it flies the red flag of international social- ism "— This is referring to the Socialist Party — ■ " proclaiming the identity of the workers' interests the world over, recognizing only one enemy, the International bourgeoisie, and substituting the national particularism of an obsolete competitive capitalism with the international soli- darity of socialism." Senator Overman. It seems that they have a common flag, and that is the red flag. That is the I. W. W. and the socialists ; have they aU a common flag? Mr. Stevenson. They have. Senator Overman. And that is the red flag? Mr. Stevenson. That is the red flag. Senator Overman. Each one of these organizations carries the red flag? Mr. Stevenson. All of them. And here is the epitome of the whole thing : " The red flag of the Industrial Republic is expressive of all the slumbering and vital forces in society making for progress and true civilization ; it is a banner proclaiming and symbolizing the noble Ideal of social fraternity and industrial equality. The ultimate triumph of the proletarian armies fighting under the re(} flag, therefore, marks the dawn of the universal brotherhood and of the cooperative commonwealth." ^ ^ il; * * Hi * Mr Stevenson. The Anarchist element in this country has always been a small one, but a very active and violent group. Thev came into prominence again with the declaration of war by the United States" and participated in the pacifist movement. They organized the No Conscription League, with headquarters at 20 East One hundred and tweuty-flftl) Street, Nev,- York City, and from that league thev issued the most violent propaganda opposed to conscription. I should like to submit one or two of their leaflets in the record. A large number of anonymous leaflets were distributed, which were signed "Anarchist," and by the underground pass. Among the assistints of Emma Goldman and Berkman were M. Elinore Fitzgerald, Carl Newlander, Walter Merchant, and W. P. Bales. I might say that the official publication of the Anarchist was Mother Earth. Senator Overman. Where was that published? Mr Stevenson. In New York City. Senator Nelson. What is the title of that— Mother Earth? 85723—19 2 18 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Ste\'enson. Mother Earth. Senator Ovkkman. Who is the editor of that magazine? Mr. Stevenson'. Emma Goldman. It is still being published, although it is not coming out now in regular issues. She is conflned in prison for the viola- tion of the espionage act, I believe. Senator Overman. Was she tried under the espionage act after she was tried under the conspiracy act? Mr. Stevenson. Yes, sir. The anarchists have organized a school, known as the Ferrer Modern School, with headquarters at Stelton, N. J., but they have branches in most of the cities of the United States. In connection with this school, I must call attention to the organization of a school for children now being conducted. The head of this movement is Mr. Leonard D. Abbott. On the trial of Emma Goldman and Berkman, Mr. Abbott was called to testify as to the character of Emma Goldman and Berkman, and in the course of the examination he was asked : " Q. Does the Ferrer School teach children to disobey the laws of the country?" To which he replied: "It teaches them to criticize all laws, and to prepare themselves for a free society. " Q. When you speak of criticizing laws, do you include the laws of this gov- ernment? "A. Yes." Senator Overman. \A'hat is the extent of thance, even tliough the capitalist Government of Gleraenceau has not yet been replaced by a workmen's Government of Merheim, just as we have concluded peace with the imperialist government of Germany, with Emperor AYilhelm at its head, whom you, Mr. President, hold in no greater esteem than we, the ^\'ln•kmen's and Peasant's Revolutionary Government hold you, we finally propose to you, Mr. President, that you take up with your Allies the following questions and give us- precise and business-like rejilies: Do the governments of the United States, England and France intend to cease demanding the blood of tlie Russian people and lives of Russian citizens, if the Russian people will agree to pay them a ransom, such as a man who has been suddenly attacked pays to the one who attacked him? If so, just what tribute do the governments of the United States, Eng- land and France demand of the Russian people? Do they demand concessions, that the railways, mines, gold deposits, etc., shall be handed over to them on certain conditions, or do they demand territorial concessions, stome part of Siberia or Caucasia, or ])eriiaps the Murmansk coast? We expect from you, Mr. President, that you will definitely state what you and your Allies demand, and also whether the allowance between your govern- ment and the governments of the other entente powers is in the nature of a combination which could be compared with a corporation for drawing divi- dends from Russia, or does your government and the other governments of the entante powers have each separate and special demands, and what are they? Particularly are we interested to know the demands of your French Allies with regard to the three billions of rubles which the Paris banlrers loaned to the Government of the Czar — the oppressor of Russia and the enemy of his own people? And you, Mr. President, as well as your French Allies surely know that even if you and your allies should succeed in enslaving and covering with blood the whole territory of Russia — which will not be allowed by our heroic revolutionary Red Army — that even in that case the Russian people, worn out by the war and not having sufficient time to take advantage of the beneljts of the Soviet rule to elevate their national economy, will be unable to pay to the French bankers the full tribute for the billions that were used by the Government of the Czar for puiiaoses Injurious to the people. Do your French allies demand that a part of this tribute be paid in installments, and if so. what part, and do they anticipate that their claims will result In similar claims by other creditors of the infamous Government of the Czar which has been overthrown by the Russian people? We can hardly think that your Gov- eernment and your allies are without a ready answer, when your and their troops are trying to advance on our territory with the evident object of seizing and enslaving our country. The Rus.slan people through the People's Red Army, are guarding their territory and are bravely fighting against your Invasion and against the attack of your Allies. But your Government and the Governments of the other powers of the Entente undoubtedly have well prepared plans, for the sake of which you are shedding the blood of your soldiers. We expect that you will state your demands very clearly and definitely. Should we, however, be disappointed, should you fall to reply to our quite definite and precise questions, we wIU draw the only possible conclusion — that we ari' justified in the assumption BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 29 that your Government and the Governments of your Allies desire to get from the Russian people a tribute both in money and in natural resources of Russia, and territorial concessions as well. We vdll tell this to the Russian people as well as to the tolling masses of other countries, and the absence of a reply from you will serve for us as a silent reply. The Russian people will then understand that the demands of your Government and of the Governments of your Allies are so severe and vast that you do not even want to communi- cate them to the Russian Government. People's Commissary of Foreign Affairs, tchitchebin. Mr. Stevenson. The principal publications of the Bolshevikl in New York City are the Novy Mir Senator Nelson. In what language is that? Mr. STEVENSON'. Russian. The Workman and Peasant. Senator Overman. What does "Novy Mir" mean? Mr. Stevenson. The New Era or New Life. These are the accredited official organs in this country of the Bolsheviki government. The Bolsheviki have organized in this country Soviets. Each industrial cen- ter in the United States now has its soviet. Senator Nelson. Is that so? Mr. Stevenson. And, of course, the plan of the propagandists is to extend their influence until they can take on the functions of government. Senator Nelson. What is their system of organization in each case? Mr. Stex^enson. It is merely the election of delegates to a central committee. That is what the soviet is. Senator Nelson. Have they not local organizations? Have they not a local government? Mr. Stevenson. The central committee is the governing committee; it acts as the government. Senator Nelson. Consisting of delegates from these various points? Mr. Stevenson. Yes. Senator O^-ekman. The idea, then, is to form a government within this Gtov- ernment? Mr. Stevenson. Precisely. Senator Overman. And to overthrow this Government? Mr. Stevenson. Precisely. I think that the record should contain a copy of the constitution of the Russian Socialist Federated Soviet Republic. Senator Overman. Will you give us the names of some of the heads of this soviet government? Mr. Stevenson. In this country? Senator Overman. Yes. Mr. Stevenson. Those are largely foreign^-s. They are largely Russians over here now. Senator Nelson. That constitution ought to go in, Mr. Chairman. Senator Overman. Let me see that. Mr. Stevenson (handing paper to the chairman). You will find some extraor- dinarily interesting matter there. The disfranchisement of all persons who employ anybody or pay anyone any wages ; anyone who does that can not vote in the Soviet government. You will find some very interesting political ideas there. Senator Nelson. I think that would be a good thing to go into the record. Senator Overman. Yes; this will go in. (The constitution referred to is printed in the record, as follows:) [Outside of front cover.] constitution of the RUSSIAN SOCIALIST FEDERATED SOVIET REPUBLIC. Since intelligent judgment on the complex problems of Russia requires some knowledge of the purpose and methods of the Soviet Government (which is one of those rare things — a new event in history), we believe that our readers will be glad to have this opportunity to study critically an English translation (taken from a recent issue of the New York Tribune) of the constitution of the Soviets. It has been generally reco^ized in America that so much progress has been made in Russia in working out this new conception of the state and 30 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. its government. Even if the present Soviet Government should fall, or should learn by experience to modify some of its methods, the ideas embodied In this document are from henceforth a mighty force to be reckoned with in the world; and the document itself may well come to rank with the great declarations of history. 1918. [Inside of front cover.]' Read the following books: The Soviets at Work, by Nicolai Lenin. Political Parties in Russia, Nicolai Lenin. Our Revolution, Leon Trotzky. On Behalf of Russia, Arthur Ransom. The Soul of the Russian Revolution, by M. Olgin. THE CONSTITUTION OF THE RUSSIAN SOCIALIST FEDERATED SOVIET REPUBLIC The Soviet Constitution and Declabation or Rights and Duties. I. DECLARATION OF EIGHTS AND DUTIES OF LAB0EIN6 HUMANITY. [Approved by the Commission of the Central Committee for Drafting the Constitution of the Soviets.] We, the laboring people of Russia, workmen, peasants, cossacks, soldiers and sailors, united in the councils of the Workmen's, Soldiers', Peasants' and Cos- sacks' delegates, declare in the persons of our plenipotentiary representatives, who have assembled at the Pan-Russian Congress of Soviets, the following rights and duties of the working and despoiled people: The economic subjection of the laboring classes by the possessors of the means and instruments of production, of the soil, machines, factories, railways, and raw materials — those basic sources of life — appears as the cause of all sorts of political oppression, economic spoliation, intellectual and moral enslavement of the laboring masses. The economic liberation of the working classes from the yoke of capitalism represents, therefore, the greatest task of our time, and must be accomplished at all costs. The liberation of the working classes must and can be the work of those classes themselves, who must unite for that purpose in the Soviets of the Work- men's, Soldiers', Peasants', and Cossacks' delegates. In order to put an end to every ill that oppresses humanity and in order to secure to labor all the rights belonging to it, we recognize that it is necessary to destroy the existing social structure, which rests upon private property in the soil and the means of production, in the spoliation and oppression of the laboring masses, and to substitute for it a Socialist structure. Then the whole earth, its surface and its depth, and all the means and instruments of produc- tion, created by the toll of the laboring classes, will belong by right of common property to the whole people, who are united in a fraternal association of laborers. Only by giving society a Socialist structure can the division of it into hostile classes be destroyed, only so can we put an end to the spoliation and oppression of men by men, of class by class ; and all men — ^placed upon an equality as to rights and duties — will contribute to the welfare of society according to their strength and capacities, and will receive from society according to their require- ments. The complete liberation of the laboring classes from spoliation and oppres- sion appears as a problem, not locally or nationally limited, but as a world ^NoTE BY Majoe Humes at time of submitting this excerpt for inclusion in RECORD OF " Bolshevik Propaganda." — " The above form of constitution is apparently a preliminary draft of that instrument. The final draft was adopted on July 10, 1918, and appears in the present volume immediately preceding the Appendix at the end. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 31 problem and it can be carried out to Its end only through the united exertions of workingmen of all lands. Therefore, the sacred duty rests upon the working class of every country to come to the assistance of the workingmen of other countries who have risen against the capitalistic structure of society. A Dictatorship of the Proletariat. The working class of Russia, true to the legacy of the Internationale, over- threw their bourgeoisie in October, 1917, and, with the help of the poorest peasantry, seized the powers of government. In establishing a dictatorship of the proletariat and the poorest peasantry, the working class resolved to wrest capital from the hands of the bourgeoisie, to unite all the means of produc- tion in the hands of the Socialist state and thus to increase as rapidly as possible the mass of productive forces. The first steps in that direction were: Abolition of property in land, declaration of the entire soil to be national property, and the distribution of it to the workmen without purchase money, upon the principle of equality in utilizing it. Declaration as national property of all forests, treasures of the earth and waters of general public utility, and all the belongings, whether animals or things, of the model farms and agricultural undertakings. Introduction of a law for the control of workmen and for the nationalization of a number of branches of industry. , Nationalization of the banks, which heretofore were one of the mightiest in- struments for the spoliation of society by capital. Repudiation of the loans which were contracted by the czar's government upon the account of the Russian people. Arming of the laborers and peasants and disarming of the propertied classes. Besides all this, the introduction of a universal obligation to work, for the purpose of eliminating the parasitic strata of society, is planned. As soon as production shall have been consolidated in the hands of the work- ing masses, united in a gigantic association, in which the development of every single Individual will appear as the condition for the development of all men ; as soon as the old bourgeois state with its classes and class hatred, is definitely superseded by a firmly established Socialist society which rests upon universal labor, upon the application and distribution of all productive forcea according to plan, and upon the solidarity of all its members, then, along with the disappearance of class differences, will disappear also the necessity for the dictatorship of the working classes and for state power as the instrument of class domination. These are the immediate internal problems of the Soviet republic. Tlw Tnternntional Policies of the fioviet Republic. In its relation to other nations the Soviet republic stands upon the principles of the first Internationale, which recognized truth, justice and morality as the foundation of its relations to all humanity, independent of race, religion, or nationality. The Socialist Soviet republic recognizes that wherever one member of the fiimily of humanity is oppressed all humanity is oppressed, and for that reason it proclaims and defends to the utmost the right of all nations to self- determination and thereby to the free choice of their destiny. It accords that right to all nations without exception, even to the hundreds of millions of laborers in Asia, Africa, in all colonies and the small countries who, down to the present day, have been oppressed and despoiled without pity by the ruling classes, by the so-called civilized nations. The Soviet republic has transformed into deeds the principles proclaimed before its existence. The right of Poland to self-determination having been recognized in the first days of the March revolution, after the overturn in October the Soviet republic proclaimed the full independence, of Finland and the right of the Ukraine, of Armenia, of all the people populating the territory of the former Russian empire, to their full self-determination. In its efforts to create a league — free and voluntary, and for that reason all the more complete and secure — of the working classes of all the peoples of Russia, the Soviet republic declared Itself a federal republic and offered to the laborers and peasants of every nation the opportunity to enter as members with 32 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. equal rights into tlie fraternal family of the Republic of Soviets (through action taken) independently in the plenipotentiary sessions of their Soviets, to any extent and in whatever form they might wish. The Soviet RcpuWc's Basis of Peace. The Soviet republic has declared war upon war, not only in words, but also in deeds ; and in doing so it formally, and in the name of the working masses of Russia, announced its complete renunciation of all efforts at conquest and annexation, as well as all thought of oppressing small nations. At the same time, the Soviet republic, to prove the sincerity of the purposes, broke openly with the policy of secret diplomacy and secret treaties, and it proposed to all belligerent nations to conclude a general democratic peace without annexations or indemnities, upon the basis of the free self-determination of peoples. That standpoint is still firmly adhered to be the Soviet republic. Compelled by the policy of violence practised by the imperialisms of all the world, the Soviet republic is marshalling its forces for resistance against the growing demands of the robber packs of international capital, and it looks to the inevitable rebellion of the working classes for the solution of the question of how the nations can live peacefully together. The international Socialist rebellion alone, in which the laboring people of each state overthrow their own imperialists, puts an end to war once for all, and creates the conditions for the full realization of the solidarity of the working people of the entire world. The Rights and Duties of the Workers. Taking its stand upon the principles of the Internationale, the Soviet republic recognizes that there can be no rights without duties, and no duties without rights, and, therefore, proclaims at the same time, with the rights of the working classes in a rejuvenated society, the following outline of their duties : To fight everywhere and without sparing their strength for the complete power of the working classes, and to stamp out all attempts to restore the dominion of the despoilers and oppressors. To assist with all their strength in overcoming the depression caused by the war and the opposition of the bourgeoisie, and to cooperate in bringing about as speedy a recovery as possible of production in all branches of economy. To subordinate their personal and group interests to the Interests of all the working people of Russia and the whole world. To defend the republic of the Soviets, the only Socialist bulwark in the capitalistic world, from the attacks of international imperialism without spar- ing their own strength and even their own lives. To keep in mind always and everywhere the sacred duty of liberating labor from the domination of capital, and to strive for the establishment of a world- embracing fraternal league of working people. In proclaiming these rights and duties the Russian Socialist Republic of the Soviets calls upon the working classes of the entire world to accomplish their task to the very end, and in the faith that the Socialist ideal will soon be achieved to write upon their flags the old battle cry of the working people. Proletarians of all lands unite I/ong live the Socialist world revolution ! II. GENEBAL PROVISION OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE RUSSIAN SOCIALIST FEDERAL EEPTJBLIC. The fundamental problem of the constitution of the Russian Socialist Federal republic involves, in view of the present transition period, the establishment of a dictatorship of the urban and rural proletariat and the poorest peasantry, the power of the pan-Russian Soviet authority, the crushing of the bourgeoisie, the abolition of the spoliation of men by men and the introduction of Socialism in which there will be neither a division into classes nor a state authority. The Russian republic is the free Socialist society of all the working people of Russia, united in the urban and rural Soviets. The Soviets of those regions which diiferentiate themselves by a special form of existence and national character will be united into autonomous regional BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 33 associations ruled by tlie sessioDS of the Soviets of tliose regions and their own executive organs. Tlie Soviet associations of the regions participate in the Russian Socialist republic upon the basis of federation, at tlie head of whch stands the pan- Eussian session of the Soviets and, in periods between the sessions, the pan- Knssian central executive committee. III. CONCEENING THE BUSSIAN SOVIETS. The right to vote and to be elected to the Soviets is enjoyed by the following •citizens of the Russian Socialists Soviet republic of both sexes who shall have completed their eighteenth year by the day of election : All who have acquired the means of living through labor that is productive and useful to society and are members of the trades associations, namely : (a) Laborers and employees of classes who are employed in industry, trade and agriculture. (b) Peasants and Cossack agricultural laborers who hire no labor. (c) Employees and laborers In the offices of the Soviet government. (d) Soldiers of the army and navy of the Soviets. (e) Citizens of the two previous categories who have to any degree lost their capacity to work. The following pei-pons enjoy neithei- the right to vote nor to be voted for, even though they belong to one of the categories enumerated above, namely : Persons who employ hired labor in order to obtain from it an increase of profits ; Persons who have an income without doing any work, such as interest from ■capital, receipts from property, and so on. Private merchants, trade and commercial agents ; Employes of communities for religious worship ; Employes and agents of the former police, the gendarmerie corps and the Ochrana ; also members of the dynasty that formerly ruled Russia ; Persons who have in legal form been declared demented or mentally deficient and also deaf and dumb persons ; Persons who have been punished for selfish or dishonorable misdemeanors. IV-VII. PEINCIPLES FOB THE ADMINISTEATION OF THE RUSSIAN STATE. The government is based upon the smallest settlements (villages and ham- lets), the inhabitants of which may elect one representative to each 100 persons. The rural Soviets are under the authority of the Soviets of the Wolosts (dis- tricts), and these latter under the Soviets of the TJjesd (larger regions). The urban and Ujesd Soviets elect delegates to .sessions of the government •of Oblast Soviets. Each of these bodies chooses independently its own execu- tive committee. VIIL CONCEENING THE PAN-EUSSIAN CONGEESS OF THE SOVIETS. The Pan-Russian Congress of Soviets consists of representatives of the urban Soviets (one delegate for each 25,000 voters) and representatives of the gov- •ernment congresses (one delegate for each 125,000 voters). The Pan-Russian Congress of Soviets will be called together by the Pan- Russian central executive committee at least twice a year. The extraordinary Pan-Russian Congress will be called together by the Pan- Russian central executive committee upon its own initiative or upon the demand of the Soviets of districts embracing at least one-third of the entire population •of the republic. The Pan-Russian Congress of Soviets elects the central executive committee of not more than 200 members. The Pan-Russian executive committee Is responsible to the Pan-Russian Congress of Soviets. 85723—19 3 34 BOLSHEVIK Ji-KUl-AUAJNUA. The Pan-Russian Congress of Soviets is the highest power in the republic. In the period between its sessions that power is represented by the Pan-Russian central executive committee. Eleven Administrative Departments. It is further provided that the central executive committee shall be divided Into 11 colleges for administrative functions. There are : Foreign policies. Defense of the country (army and nav.y). Social order and security (militia), census of the people, registration of so- cieties and associations, fire department, insurance, organization of the Soviets. Justice. Public economy (with subsections for agriculture. Industry, and trade, finances, railways, food supply, state property and construction). Labor and social welfare. Education and enlightenment of the people. Public health. Post, telegraph and telephone. Federal and national affairs. Control and auditing. Mr. Stevenson. One could continue to give illustrations of the speeches made, and illustrations of the character of the propaganda ; but I hardly think It will be necessary to cumber the record with repetition. Senator Nelson. So far, with the exception of a few cases, they are all confined to foreigners, are they not? Mr. Stevenson. Except that the Socialists approve of that form of govern- ment in a great many instances. Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Stevenson. And express sympathy for it in their publications, and are cooperating with the Bolsheviki. A casual glance at some of the Socialist papers will satisfy anyone that that is the case. Senator Nelson. There is a. community of interest? Mr. Stevenson. Distinctly. I think that the interesting point about the Bolsheviki, which might be brought out, is that prior to their propaganda we had these difCerent branches of radical thought, having somewhat conflicting principles so that they could not cooperate. Senator Nelson. Do you mean by that that instead of having all these organ- izations of various kind.s that we have had in this country, the Bolsheviki in Russia have succeeded in concentrating all the lye, one might say, into one system? Mr. Stevenson. Precisely, and for this reason, that all of the radical people believe that everyone should belong to the proletariat. Senator Nelsox. Yes. Jlr. Stevenson. The Bolsheviki say "Everything should belong to the prole- tariat ; the proletariat should take control now, and we will work out our theory afterwards." That makes a common platform for all of these radical groups to stand on, because the anarchist feels that if the proletariat gets control he can effect his theory, and the same is true of the various other groups of radical thinkers. Senator Nelson. Then they have really rendered a service to the various classes of reformers and progressives that we have here in this country, have they not? Mr. Stevenson. Apparently. Senator Nelson. In concentrating their doctrines into one formula? Mr. Stevenson. They have. * * * * * * * Maj. Humes. You have outlined In a general way the activities of the radical groups in this country, and from your study of the cause advocated by the radical groups in this country that you have referred to and what they are contending for, and your knowledge of the Soviet government In Russia and the activities in Russia, is It or is It not a fact that the elements that you have referred to In this country are the same elements that are now at war with and fighting In the field against American soldiers in Russia? Mr. Stevenson. They are the same element. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 35 Senator Nelson. They are not exactly the same crowd, but they have the same gospel? Mr. Stevenson. They are even the same crowd, Senator, because John Reed is the accredited representative of that government. Senator Nht-son. In this country? Mr. Stevenson. In this country ; and Albert Rhys Williams admits that he is a propagandist for that government in this country. Senator Nelson. Is Reed the official representative here? Mr. Stevenson. Yes. Senator Nelson. Has !ie knocked at the door of the State Department? Mr. Ste\'enson. I believe that he tried to. I am not sure. I know that among his effects, however, he had the official forms supplied by the Soviet govern- ment for Soviet marriages and divorces, and all that sort of thing. Maj. Humes. What are the forms and the requirements for marriages and^ divorces under the Soviet government in Russia? Mr. Stevenson. Simply a statement before the proper commissary that they^ want to be married or that they want to be divorced. Senator Overman. Do they have as many wives as they want? Mr. Stevenson. In rotation. Maj. Humes. Polygamy is recognized, is it? Mr. Stevenson. I do not know about polygamy. I have not gone into the study of their social order quite as fully as that. Senator Nelson. That is, a man can marry and then get a divorce when he gets tired, and get another wife? Mr. Stevenson. Precisely. Senator Nelson. And keep up the operation? Mr. Stevenson. Yes. Senator Overman. Do you know whether they teach free love? Mr. Stevenson. They do. Ma.i. Humes. Can a divorce be secured upon the application of one party to the marriage, or has it to be by agreement? Mr. Stevenson. I think by one party. Maj. Humes. By either party? Mr. Stevenson. By either party. Maj. Humes. They can renounce the marital bond at will? Mr. Stevenson. Precisely. Maj. Humes. Do you know whether or not the element that is active in this country is advocating the same thing here in their public speeches, or their literature? Mr. Stevenson. In considerable of the literature some of the element has done so. I will not say that all have. Maj. Humes. The committee asked you yesterday to rearrange the "Who's Who." Has that work been completed so that it can be submitted to the com- mittee? Mr. Stevenson. It has been practically completed, Major. Maj. Humes. You have not fully completed it? Mr. Stevenson. We will have it completed very shortly. It is more of a task than I realized at first. Maj. Humes. But it will be completed for submission for the -record later in the day? Mr. Stevenson. Yes. Maj. Humes. I think that Is all I have to ask, unless the committee has something further. Senator Overman. You think this movement is growing constantly in this country? Mr. Stevenson. I think so. Senator Overman. Rapidly or slowly? Mr. Stevenson. I think it is growing rather rapidly, if we can gauge it by the amount of literature that is distributed and the number of meetings held. It is a very indefinite sort of thing. It Is extremely difficult to state how effective these sheets are. Senator Overman. You have not discovered that it is growing among the American population; it is more among the foreigners, is it not? Mr. Stevenson. Well, the Rand School of Social Science publishes all of these works, like the Letters from Lenin, and that sort of thing, and that is made up very largely of American citizens, such as Charles Andrew Beard, Henry Wads- worth Dana, Algernon Lee, and Scott Nearing. 36 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. Senator Kklsox. Do you reRarrl this propaganda as a menace to our country? Mr. Ste\'enson'. Decidedly. I conceive it to be the gravest menace to the country to-day. Senator Oveeman. Tour idea is that these people are conducting In tlii.s coun- try an organization within this country for the overthrow of its Government, carrying the red flag, and with the cry "Down with capitalists" as the prin- cipal teaching? Blr. Stevenson. That is true. Senator Nelson. You have given us a good diagnosis. Now, can you give us any remedy or suggest any remedy for It? Mr. STE^fENsoN. It strikes me, Senator, that there are several things which might be done. In the first place, I think that the foreign agitators should be deported. I think the bars should be put up to exclude seditious literature from the country. There is practically no way now to stop this material from coming in. I think that American citizens who advocate revolution should be punished under a law drawn for that purpose. Senator Overman. Then you will hear somebody in the Senate talking about freedom of speech, will you not? Mr. Stevenson. Yes ; but revolution is somewhat different from freedom of speech. I think, however, that that would not be sufficient. I think that one of the things that must be carried on is a counter-propaganda campaign. Senator Nelson. An educational campaign? Mr. Stevenson. A campaign of education. I think that you must employ the same weapons that they employ. The thing that has impressed me more than anything else is that you see all of these papers, all of these documents, and you hear of all of these speeches and meetings, and you do not see a scratch of the pen that reaches these people, hardly, to disprove the arguments which are put forth by these papers. Senator Nelson. But do you find much in our public press, the daily press, the weekly press, or our monthlies, that calls the attention of the American people to these things and points out the danger of them? Mr. Stevenson. Not until very recently. Senator. We have seen this move- merit grow up for the last year and a half in the foreign-language press, and now it has extended to all these other papers. It seems to me that our teachers in the public schools should be trained to combat this thing; and still further, I think if you go back into history you will find a very Interesting parallel in the United States to the condition which we find here now. You will remember that in about 1791 or 1792 or 1793, somewhere along there, we had the great whisky rebellion in western Pennsylvania. That whisky rebellion was brought about through the agitation of civil liberties bureaus, which were the reflex of the Jacobean clubs in France, and In the Life of Washington by John Marshall, he makes a very interesting observation on the fact that as soon as Eobespiere was guillotined In France, and the Jacobean clubs lost their power. Immediately in the United States there came the dissolution of these democratic societies. And it seemed to be that there was a lesson for us to-day In that : That so long as the Bolsheviki control and dominate the millions of Europe, so long that is going to be a constant menace and encouragement to the radical and dissatisfied elements In this country. * * K: ^i- * ,( 4: Thereupon the subcommittee proceeded to take testimony. TESTIMONY OF ME. WILLIAM CHAPIN HUNTINGTON. (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) Maj. Humes. Doctor, where do you reside? Mr. HtTNTiNGTON. With my parents in Elizabeth, A". J. Maj. Humes. Are you connected with any department of the Gov- ernment ? Mr. Huntington. With the Department of Commerce. Senator WoLCOTT. May I interrupt ? Doctor, what is your degree? Mr. Huntington. Doctor of engineering. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. v3X Maj. Humes. From what institution? Mr. Huntington. From the Royal Technical College, Aix la Chappelle, in Ehenish Prussia. Ma]. Humes. Have you a degree from any institution in this country ? Mr. Huntington. From the Columbia University; mechanical engineer. Senator Wolcott. Your degree from the foreign institution was a postgraduate degree? Mr. Huntington. Yes, sir; a postgraduate degree. Senator Wolcott. What is your degree from Columbia ? Mr. Huntington. Mechanical engineer. Senator Wolcott. And your foreign degree is doctor of engineer- ing? Mr. Huntington. Engineering. Maj. HuJiEs. Were you attached to the American Embassy in Pet- rograd at any time? Mr. Huntington. I was designated to the embassy as the commer- cial attache of the Department of Commerce. Maj. Humes. During what period of time were you serving in that capacity? Mr. Huntington. From June, 1916, until September, 1918. Maj. Humes. Were you in Russia during all that time? Mr. Huntington. During the entire period. Maj. Humes. In what parts of Russia were you during that period? Mr. Huntington. I began my work in Petrograd. Subsequently, following instructions of my department, I traveled over, in the summer of 1916, very nearly the whole of European Russia, that is from Archangel as far south as Tiflis in the Caucasus, and as far west as Finland, and down the Volga. Senator Nelson. Were you in the Ukraine? Mr. Huntington. At that period, yes, sir ; in 1916. Senator Nelson. And in Little Russia ? Mr. Huntington. Yes, that is practically the same thing. Senator Nelson. And in Great Russia ? Mr. Huntington. In Great Russia, yes. That is the part which contains Petrograd and Moscow. Senator Overman. Go ahead. Mr. Huntington. Following that trip about Russia, which con- sumed something over two months at that* time, I remained in Petro- grad, only visiting Moscow for a period of time ; and then in February of 1918, when the allied embassies all left Petrograd, I was sent out by Mr. Francis, the American ambassador, to Siberia. So that in the months of March and April, 1918, 1 lived in Siberia. I returned again, on instructions of the ambassador, from Siberia to Moscow, arriving there about the 1st of May, 1918, and remained in Moscow until the 26th of August, when the American consulate general, the Italian consulate general, the military mission, with certain exceptions, one man in each case, and the IBelgians, repre- sented, as it finally happened, by one man, their consul general, were permitted to leave, with the American civilians, the confines of Rus- sia. Senator Nelson. Wliere did you go in Siberia? 38 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. HuNTixGTOx. Primarily to Irkutsk, which is the capital of Eastern Siberia. Senator Nelson. That is in the eastern part of Siberia, on the west side of Lake Baikal ? Mr. Huntington. Irkutsk, yes. I have also been around the lake once, and I also went to Verkhne Udinsk. Senator Nelson. Were you at Kiakhata ? Mr. Huntington. I have never been there. Senator Nelson. Were you down the river at all ? Mr. Huntington. Although I have been on the river on a boat, I ha\-e never been on it to go for any distance. Senator Nelson. Were you down as far as the station at the mouth of the Usuri River? Mr. Huntington. No, sir. Maj. Humes. Will you state what the conditions were as you ob- served and found them during your stay in Russia, and especially outline and give the committee any facts that you have in reference to the actual application of the Soviet government after the revolu- tion. Outline the conditions just as you found them from time to time at the various points you are familiar with. Senator Wolcott. Before you proceed to answer that question: You say that jou left Moscow along with members of the Italian consulate and others? Mr. Huntington. There was a special train made up on that occa- sion, composed of the staff of the American consulate general, of American citizens who comprised chiefly, but not all, the employees of the Y. M. C. A. and of the employees of the National City Bank, which had a considerable staff, and a few others; the Italian repre- sentatives, chiefly the Italian military mission, with their wives, and the Belgians. * As a matter of fact, only one Belgian, the consul general, came. They had not a very large representation in the country at that time. They were the three nationalities to go on that train. Senator Wolcott. You used the expression that you were permit- ted to leave. Were these various officials required to leave, in any wise ? Were they requested to leave, or was the desire on their part to leave, and was it that they got the permission to get this train and thus get out? Mr. Huntington. Yes; the last is the case. They had arrived at a sort of impasse where they were no longer able to perform their functions; so they requested, through the neutral powers — that is, each one of the allied Governments was at that time under the pro- tection of a neutral power, and they requested — permission to leave the country. I say " finally allowed to leave," because there were some negotiations on the subject, and the leaving was made con- tingent upon certain counter concessions to the representatives of the Bolsheviki government in other countries. This is a chapter of the political history which, unless you care to have me, I will not go into. Senator King. The fact is that they murdered — the Bolsheviki murdered — the British representative, and they made the lives of the representatives of the other nations, including our own ambassa- dor, so intolerable, and there was such a constant menace over them, BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 39 that they were compelled to leave? Is not that a fact, that they mur- dered the British officer? I will ask you that first. I had several questions in one. Mr. Htjntington. Rather than to answer that directly, I should say that a party of the Bolsheviki Eed Guard, under a commissar, came to the British Embassy and eame into the embassy, which of course is always recognized as the ground, in every part of the civil- ized world, of the power at home — that is, the British Embassy or the American Embassy is a piece of British soil or of America, as the case may be, in the foreign country — they came in with arms, intent on making a raid on the embassy, whereupon the British naval officer in question, who was there, warned them to leave. They came on and he opened fire on them, defending his own embassy. Senator Nelson. Were you there, and did you see that? Mr. Huntington. No, sir. At that time I was some miles from Petrograd, a very short distance away, in a border town at the Fin- nish border, the name of which in English is White Island. It is about a half an hour distant from Petrograd. The news was brought to us at that point. Senator King. The officer was killed? Mr. Huntington. Yes. . Senator King. You did not state that fact. Mr. Huntington. Yes; of course he was killed. Senator King. Our ambassador is not there, in Petrograd or in Moscow ? Mr. Huntington. At this moment? Senator King. Yes. Mr. Huntington. Oh, no sir. Senator King. He and others were driven out, or conditions were so intolerable that they left, many, many months ago ? Mr. Huntington. Yes; the conditions were made such that they could not remain. Senator King. And one of our representatives now is in jail, or imprisoned by the Soviet, or by the Bolsheviki ? Mr. Huntington. I understand that the former United States consul in Petrograd is in prison in Turkestan. Senator Nelson. Did you meet Mr. Leonard, of Minnesota, who was attached to the service over there? Mr. Huntington. Yes ; on a number of occasions. Senator Steeling. Is Ambassador Francis in Russia still? Mr. Huntington. No, sir ; he has been in London, and was called, so the newspapers stated, to Paris for a conference with our repre- sentatives there. Whether he has returned to London I am not cer- tain. I know no more of his movements there than what the news- papers have told us. Senator Steeling. He remained there some time after the other legations had left ? Mr. Huntington. In Russia ? Senator Steeling. In Russia; not at Petrograd, but in Russia? Mr. Huntington. I should explain that, sir, by saying that the allied ambassadors and ministers in council had agreed at one time to leave Petrograd, and had about agreed to leave the country ; that some of them took steps to do so; that Ambassador Francis finally 4,0 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGAilDA. decided not to leave Kussian soil, but transferred his embassy to a town about 360 or 360 miles east of Petrograd, called Vologda. Senator Nelson. That is at the railroad junction on the route from Archangel to East Siberia? Mr. Huntington. Yes, it is at the junction between the north and south route to Archangel and the east and west route to Siberia. There he was joined by the other allied representatives. Senator Nelson. How far east of Petrograd is that point? Mr. Huntington. My memory tells me it is 360 mUes. I think I am nearly right. Senator Nelson. Yes; and it is about due south from Archangel? Mr. Huntington. Very nearly due south. Senator Nelson. What is the distance from Archangel ? Mr. Huntington. It is very nearly the same ; perhaps a little more. The total distance to Archangel is 760 miles, so that I should say it was about 400 miles from Archangel to Vologda. Senator Sterling. Do you know whether any of the other repre- sentatives were intercepted in their attempts to get out of the country, or delaj'ed by the Bolsheviki ? Mr. Huntington. In February, do you mean, or do you mean later on in the last time ; in the last of August, when I described the de- parture of the Americans, Italians, and Belgians ? Senator Steeling. On either occasion were they delayed or pre- vented? Mr. Huntington. About the time in February I can not state in detail, or from direct personal knowledge, since I left on the train which took most of the American representatives out east, and was sent subsequently with that train by the ambassador to Siberia. Senator Overman. Why did the American representatives leave? Mr. Huntington. At that time, sir? Senator Overman. Yes ; at any time. Why did they leave Kussia ? Mr. Huntington. There were two situations existing, if I may be- allowed to say, at those times. Senator Overman. Yes; that is what I want to know. Why did they leave there ? We were at peace with them. Mr. Huntington. So far as February was concerned, the immedi- ate cause of leaving Petrograd was the feared German advance on the town. The Germans were very near by in the Baltic Provinces,, and the advices were such as to cause very great fear that they would come to Petrograd. That was shared more or less by all, and it was the cause also of the removal of the Bolshevik government from Moscow at the same period. Senator King. Senator Overman wants to know why our repre- sentatives and the representatives of other nations finally left Eussia. Mr. Huntington. Why they left Petrograd at that time? Senator King. No ; why did the representatives leave Russia at all ? Why are not the representatives of foreign Governments there now ? Mr. Huntington. Simply because their treatment of the foreign Governments is such as to make functioning as a Government repre- sentative there at this moment impossible. Senator Nelson. Were they not actually ordered out of the coun- try, finally? Now, is not this the situation, that when they were threatened with the German advance to Petrograd, the Bolshevik BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. , 41 government and the foreign representatives all retired to Moscow and remained there for a while, and finally the foreign representatives were compelled to leave Moscow ? Mr. Huntington. Not quite so, Senator. In February, when the German advance was expected, the American Embassy divided into two parts, a larger part and a smaller part, the smaller part con- taining the ambassador and one or two officers who stayed with him, and the larger part, containing some of the citizens — the conditions in Eussia having become very anarchical at that time, so that it was thought very dangerous for the average person who had not official business there to remain — we sent east in trains thatv passed out finally through Siberia. The remaining, smaller section of the embassy staff, composed of the ambassador and two or three of his secretaries, proceeded after a day or two — those dates could be supplied — to the town of "Vologda and remained there until, I should say — I should wish to check this date absolutely ; it will be on file here in the appro- priate department — I think until July, when the ambassador and the allied embassies and legations left Vologda for Archangel. Senator Nelson. Vologda is northeast of Moscow, is it not? Mr. HtTNTiNGTON. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. About how far? Mr. Huntington. About 250 miles. Senator Nelson. So that our people retired from Moscow up to that railroad junction? Mr. Huntington. No, sir; our embassy at that time did not go to Moscow. Our embassy, what was left of it,- was directed to Vologda. The representatives that we had in Moscow were those of the Ameri- can consulate general always stationed at that place and who did not change their station. Senator Nelson. Among them was Mr. Leonard? Mr. Huntington. Mr. Leonard was a vice consul on the staff of the American consul general. Senator Overman. Were you there when Mr. Summers died? Mr. Huntington. Mr. Summers died while I was en route to join him. I learned of his death while passing through Vologda, on the way to Moscow. Senator King. Would you prefer, Doctor, to proceed in your own way, giving a narrative and your testimony chronologically, or to submit to these rather irregular interruptions, which must disturb the chronological sequence of it? Mr. Huntington. I had thought, if it was agreeable to you, to make a brief chronological record and then submit to any cross- examination. Senator King. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that he go on in that way. Senator Overman. Proceed in that way, Mr. Huntington. Mr. Huntington. As I understand it, what I am asked to appear here and do is to tell as honestly and truthfully as I may what I know of the theory aiid practice of the so-called Bolsheviki government in Eussia. I was sent to Eussia in 1916 as a commercial attache of the Depart- ment of Commerce, accredited to the American Embassy. That means that I was sent there as a Government employee. I had been previously for two years in the Government employ in similar work. 42 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. I was sent to Russia to do my part in developing Russian- American trade relations. I took, up my quarters in the American Embassy, where my office was situated, and was in constant touch with the ambassador and the embassy's staff, so that I had rather unusual opportunities to observe and study. I spent eight months under the so-called regime — that is, under the regime of the Czar Nicolas, from June, 1916, to March, 1917. On the Russian New Year's Day, 1917, I was presented, with the other members of the staff, to the Emperor. In March the same Emperor had abdicated, and a very nearly bloodless revolution took place, after which, first, the provisional gov- ernment of Russia was formed. I then lived under this government and its successors from March until November of 1917. In November of 1917 came, after long preparation, the coup d'etat of the so-called Bolshevik party, and this coup d'etat was successful ; and I then lived under the Bolshevik regime from November of 1917 until September 1, to be accurate, of 1918. Senator Nelson. Was it not the Kerensky government that suc- ceeded the Czar's government in March, until November ? Mr. Huntington. It is most often called the Kerensky government because of the fact that Kerensky's name was the outstanding name. Kerensky was npt the premier of the first provisional government, but sat in it as the minister of justice, and his star was a rising one. His influence grew, or the influence which was attributed to him, so that in the succeeding combinations Senator Nelson. I do not want to interrupt you, only my under- standing is, and I want to bring that before you, that the real Bolshevik government did not succeed until in the fall of 1917. Mr. Huntington. That is very clear, sir. They did not come in — were not able to gain the power — until eight months after the Rus- sian revolution in March, 1917. Beginning with June of 1916, and from that time onward, I had, first, upwards of two months in Petrograd, and then over two months traveling. The country was at war. At that period we were not, so that the contrast was especially sharp to me who had come from a peace country. The transportation system was hopelessly overloaded. Russia is weakly economically developed for her size, anyhow, being chiefly a peasant country, a farming country, although some phases of indus- try are strongly developed. But in general the economic and busi- ness apparatus is a weak one. The transportation was overloaded, which caused food difficulty. In manufacturing, munition manufacturing was going on as best they could, but still not enough. There was profiteering ; there was corruption ; there were reports widely circulated of German intrigue in high circles. The country at large was hard at work at war. Or- dinary society as we know it was very much disturbed, mothers and daughters of families being in the hospitals, and the fathers and sons being at the front. The losses were very great, and there were all the attendant conse- quences of war. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 43 Senator Wolcott. May I interject a question here? From your observation do you think you are prepared to express an opinion as to the wholeheartedness oi the Russian people who came under your observation, in support of the war at that time ? . Mr. Huntington. Those with whom I came in contact in the towns, yes. The Russian peasant with whom I had contact as time went on was, as the Russian peasant is, as a man, a local man, a man with a very narrow vision, a man who has never had any oppor- tunity, and as far as that permitted he was interested in the war. It was always pointed out, universally, that the war as compared to the very disastrous Japanese war, was a popular war, a people's war. Senator Wolcott. So that you think the statement that before the Czar abdicated the Russian people were as enthusiastic in favor of the war as could be, to be a just statement, do you ? Mr. Huntington. Yes. Senator Overman. Proceed with your story. Mr. Huntington. At that time I traveled throughout Russia, and in going through the provincial towns was able to go into many shops and stores as a commercial traveler, so to speak, and to see the absence of goods; was able to see the building operations held up, large buildings in various parts of Russia, in the large towns, with scaffold- ing about them, that could not go on for lack of material and labor; was able to see how overloaded the railroads were ; was able to see the graft which was used to get shipments made ; was able to see the work which the Zemstvo organizations were doing, and without which the war would not have gone on — they and the war industry committees were in helping the Government ; was able to see how hard hit, under the surface, Russia was, as a weakly organized economic and manu- facturing country, having to put into the field the millions of soldiers which she did. Senator Nelson. You speak and understand the Russian language? Mr. Huntington. For ordinary conversational purposes, and for reading the newspapers, yes. For reading economic books, yes. To gain a perfect knowledge of the language several years would be required, and I do not claim to have a perfect knowledge of the lan- guage. Senator Steeling. I would like to have you at some time — you may have it in mind to do so later — describe the Zemstvo and the authority of the Zemstvo, and how it is constituted. Mr. Huntington. I think that could be brought out later. I should prefer, myself, to have documents to explain that. Senator Steeling. Very well. Senator Oveeman. Go on with your story. Mr- Huntington. This situation which I have described, the bad transportation, and the heavy load of the war, failure on the front due to the lack of materiel, the soldiers not being provided with arms and elementary things which they needed, went on. As the winter drew on, the effect of this grew every day. I lived in an apartment, and was able, through my servants, who taught me my first Russian, to find out what difficulties they had in getting food in the shops. Finally, in February and March the situation got to a head. A general strike broke out of the workmen. Senator Wolcott. This was in 1917? 44 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. HiTNTiNGTON. 1917. They could not quell it. The food ques- tion was too acute. There was a universal feeling amongst the masses that there was corruption; that nothing was being done. I had that at that time from the servants, from the common people of the em- bassy and my house, with whom I had come in contact. It was talked about in stores and shops, and on the streets, that there was corruption, and that the Germans were keeping food from the people, and that sort of thing. There were parades in these strikes, and Cossack soldiers were ordered out to stop those parades. For- merly, in years gone by, they would have drawn their weapons and would have fired, if necessary. At this time they did neither. They rode up onto the sidewalks very gently and pushed people off without hurting anybody. If they gathered too much they grinned. They did not hurt anyone. It was freely stated to me by the people, by my servants, that they would not fire, and it was known that they would not fire; and before any of us who had not been through similar things before, knew it, there was mutiny in the regiments at Petro- grad followed by some street fighting. Then came the fighting with the police, the old police, which was the hardest fighting of all, with machine guns. They fought from the housetops. In a few days it was all over, and ,the first provisional government was formed from a committee of the Duma, which was the only i-ep- resentative organization that they had. Alongside of this provisional government there was immediately formed the organization of the Soviets, so-called — " soviet " being the Russian word for " council " — of workmen and soldiers, on the model and pattern of the Soviets of 1905. These were primarily a move- ment of the so-called social democrats, primarily socialistic and not Bolshevistic, at that time. They aspirecl to put through policies and exercise an influence on the government. They did not aspire, at that period, to have members in the government, so far as I know, except- ing their member, Kerensky, who served as a link between them and the provisional government, sitting in both organizations. Senator Nelson. Tell us what the Soviets were. You have not done that yet. Mr. Huntington. The word soviet is merely the Eussian word for council. The Soviets were a form of group organizations which came about first in the revolution of 1905, at the time of the Russo-Japa- nese War, and which was not successful. In the revolution of 1917 the Soviets were by men who were inter- ested in this movement, formed, and immediately put one of their number, Kerensky, into the provisional government which was formed at the same time. They were not themselves the govern- ment, nor did they at that time aspire to be, but they aspired, as a political outer organization, to influence the government. Senator Nelson. It seems to me that your description, right here, is a little wrong. The situation is this, that the Russian peasants settled in villages and communities, called mirs, and those Soviets are organizations of those local communities. They constitute the Soviets. Those organizations of these local communities constitute the soviet, and these local communities send the representatives to the general soviet at the headquarters. Now, is not that the case ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 45 Mr. Huntington. Yes; that grew to be somewhat the case except that, if only because of the very hugeness of the country and the ignorance of the peasants, it was never possible to organize them well, in fact. Senator Nelson. But your explanation did not cover that. Mr. Huntington. I did not intend, primarily, Senator, to go into this, because I did not care to specialize on this point, because I wanted to speak more on the economic side. Senator Nelson. Well Mr. Huntington. The soviet organizations began in the great cities ; began chiefly in Petrograd, which is the political center. They subsequently extended throughout the country. The trained leaders of the movement were in the towns, not in the country. The movement at first did not even include the peasants ; not even in its title. It was called " The Soviet of the Workmen and Soldiers.'' Of course, very many soldiers were peasants. Subsequently the titles of many local Soviets were changed to include the word " peasants." Presently the word " Cossack " was also used, but at that time in Petrograd the organization was not as developed as it subsequently became. There had not been time to extend it. Now, the new provisional government which came into power at that time found itself faced by the conditions which I have recited to you as having been seen by me from the time of my arrival in 1916, conditions of economic breakdown, breakdown of transportation and business and manufacturing, in a country weakly economically devel- oped, and at that time carrying on the greatest war in its history, with millions of men in the field, and unable to back those men up with arms, railway cars, and equipment. There was also the further difficulty of the so-called dual authority, that is of a government, but at the same time, along beside that government, the organization of the Soviets which aspired to control it and had their central executive committee in Petrograd, their local Soviets, as you say, in the prov- inces ; that was a political conflict which went on and which resulted in the changes from one government to the next which I would pre- fer not to discuss, since there are political students who can do that better than I, and resulted in the changing of the composition of the first government, resulted in their resignation and their replacement by other men. and resulted in the prominence, for a time, of Keren- sky, and finally resulted in the Bolshevik coup d'etat of November. in July of 1917 the situation had already, with the economic con- ditions growing constantly worse, become so tense that the Bolshe- viks, as the slang phras'e goes, tried their movement on, and there was for several days, in Petrograd, anarchy. That is, the government went into hiding, could not be found during that period, and troops, the local garrison, marched in the streets, groups of irresponsible men went around in motor trucks with machine guns, men were up in the top floors of houses, shooting out of the windows, etc. The only result of that was 16 dead horses, which I counted in the so-called Liteiny Prospect, one of the principal streets, and a Cos- sack funeral, the Cossacks having been sent out to bring kbout order. The Bolshevik group was active always in the soviet organization. The soviet, as I explained to you, was a movement primarily of workmen of the cities, later expanded to the peasants, and it was 46 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. predominantly Menshevik — that is, the opposite of Bolshevik. The Bolsheviki were represented in' the soviet, took part in the debates, stood for certain principles, were outvoted and were a minority party in the soviet. Senator King. There were some bourgeois in the original soviet? Mr. Huntington. In the original Soviets there were verj' few. I do not know of any so-called bourgeois except for some intellectuals like Kerensky, if you like, and men of that type. I should qualify that, and say if you mean by bourgeois, the edu- cated men who have had greater opportunities in life, yes; there were several of those. Senator Nelson. Can you tell us how the Bolshevik revolution broke out in November, 1917? Can you tell us anything about that? Mr. Huntington. Yes, sir; I think so. I was present the entire time. After the " try-on " in July, which failed because the spirit was not worked up sufficienth', yet, to make it win, thej' were quiet for a time, and we went through further changes in the structure of the nominal government. Senator Nelson. By that, you mean the provisional government? Mr. Huntington. I mean the provisional government headed by Kerensky. Senator Nelson. Now, you have skipped an interregnum there, my friend. Under the Kerensky government they continued to make further war on German}' and to keep on, until finally the army of soldiers refused to fight and became demoralized. That was before the revolution of November, 1917. Now, is not that a fact? Mr. Huntington. Yes, sir; that is a fact. The changes in Petro- grad, the changes in the central government, had not been without influence on the army, very naturally, since war was the chief prob- lem before the government at that time, aside from being fed, and the change from the old regime, the change of discipline, the taking away of the former command, and the introduction into the army, by idealists like Kerensky, of untried principles of discipline, all con- spired to bring about disintegration and lack of interest. That was backed up constantly by the Bolshevik propaganda. The Bolshe- viki were working in the city of Petrograd principally, which was, of course, also the political head of Russia, and at the front, to break down the spirit of war, the spirit of carrying on the war, with Germany. Senator King. Pardon me, right there. Kerensky, Rodzianko, and Prince Lvoff, those who were controlling the provisional gov- ernment, were strong allies of France and England, and the op- ponents of the central powers, and anxious for Russia to do her part in the great struggle for the defeat of the central powers ? Mr. Huntington. There is no question about that. Senator King. And Germany had spies and agents in Russia, and they conspired with traitors in Russia for the purpose of disorganiz- ing the army, undermining the morale of the Russian people and finally compelling the withdrawal of Russia from participation in the war ? Mr. Huntington. That is correct, sir. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 47 Senator King. And the Bolsheviks were there leading the treason against their own government and against the allies ? Mr. Huntington. The Bolsheviks are internationalists, and they were not interested in the particular national ideals of Russia. Senator Overman. What was the nature of the propaganda? Can you tell us what that was? Mr. Huntington. Sending agitators, so called, and pamphlets, to the troops in the army throughout the campaign, telling them if they were to keep on fighting, they were fighting for imperialistic and selfish aims of world power by the allies, who were practically just as selfish in their aims as Germany was in hers. Also advising peasant soldiers to go home so as not to lose their share of the land which, they said, was being divided up. Senator King. Including the United States? Mr. Huntington. Including the United States. Senator King. They made as bitter an attack upon our Government as they did upon England and France ? Mr. Huntington. Yes. Senator King. And their object was to destroy us as it was to de- stroy the other allied Governments? Mr. HuNTiNGTON; Yes. Senator Oveeman. Can you tell us anything about their pamphlets and speeches? Senator King. Just one question. Senator Overman. Ygs. Senator Nelson. Their aim was to commit treason against the cause of the allied Governments, and in favor of Germany and Austria ; that is, to help Germany and Austria win the fight. Mr. Huntington. That would have to be stated differently, Sena- tor. Their aim was an aim of a group of fanatics who have their own game to play. They are perfectly willing to accept aid from Germany in playing that game. Germany had at all times had Russia honeycornbed with spies. Germany knew Russia better than any otlier country. Germany had more people within her borders and out who spoke Russian, and had studied Russia and had been in business in Russia, than any other country. The Bolsheviks were a party who believed in so-called interna- tionalism, who believed in the abolishment of war, who believed in the immediate establishment, in the bringing about, of the socialistic state, and were against this war because, as they say, they believed it to be a war of capitalists. They expected German money to win their cause, which was to stop the war. Germany used them as a military instrument to break down the military power in the east, and when she had broken it down, promptly threw her soldiers over to the west against us. Senator King. The Bolsheviks, then, were really allies of Germany and Austria? Mr. Huntington. They were, for practical purposes; from a military point of view, practically our point of view. Senator King. The Bolsheviks got the Russians to commit treason against their own Government and against the cause of the allies? Mr. Huntington. Yes; because they did not believe in the cause. Senator King. Yes. ■i8 BOLSHEVIK i-KOPAGANDA. Mr. Huntington. Xeither did tlu'y wish the German cause to win, as such, because Germany to tliem is an imperialistic government, or was, and they were quite as anxious to destroy that government as to destroy' ours. They are a third party in the triangle of opinion, if you like, but as they themselves admit, they are quite unscrupulous in the means they take to gain their end ; so they were willing to take the German money and to use it for their own principles. Germany is a crook, who, as we have proven, is perfectly unscrupu- lous in the use of any means that offer, to gain her end ; and they, as equally good croolcs, or I think a little bit better, were using Ger- many to gain their end; so that we have the spectacle of these two using each other to gain their ends. Senator Overman. What was their statement about our country? What is their objection to our Government? Mr. Huntington. What is their objection to the Government? Senator Overman. Yes; to our Government. Mr. Huntington. Their objection is twofold. In the first place, we had joined in the war, and they were against the war. In the second place, we are not a socialistic Government, and they do not approve of us for that reason. Senator King. Is it not a fact that Trotsky and a number of other men who were in this country, undesirables, bad in every way, went back to Russia and did all they could to prejudice the Russian people against our country; that they denounced our country — Trotsky and others — as an imperialistic Government? Mr. Huntington. Yes; they did. Senator King. And they are just as bitterly opposed to the United States, to our representative form of government, and would destroy it just as quickly as tliej' would destroy that of any other country in the world? Mr. Huntington. Exactly. Senator King. And their purpose now is our destruction, as it is the destruction of all orderly governments through the world? Mr. Huntington. Yes. Senator Nelson. Is not this a fact — I want to bring it to your attention — that after the Kerensky government — I call it that for short — came into power temporarily they issued a general pardon for all offenders, especially those that had been sent to Siberia, and that Lenine was one of the men that was pardoned, and that he came back by way of Switzerland and was given a passport by the German authorities to come back to Russia? Do you know anything about that, or have you heard anything about it ? Mr. Huntington. Yes, sir; I have heard, and I remember per- fectly well when Mr. Lenine first began to come into Petrograd and speak on the streets. Senator Nelson. Did you not know that he was one of the men pardoned who Avns in Siberia, and that he came back by way of Switzerland ? Mr. Huntington. I do not believe Lenine was at this period in Siberia. He returned to Russia from Switzerland. Senator Nelson. And got a passport from the German authorities? Mr. Huntington. Yes ; he came into Petrograd. I can not remem ber the time when he began to come. He met, of course, at that time with gi-eat resistance. BOLSHEVTK PROPAGANDA. 49 Senator Nelson. Did you ever see him? Mr. HrrNTiNGTON. Yes; for once, in the constituent assembly -which tried to meet and was dismissed. Senator Nelson. By him and Trotsky ? Mr. Huntington. Yes ; by Lenine and Trotsky. I sat at that time in the press gallery and looked down on him, not farther from him than you are this moment from me. Senator Nelson. Those two are the ringleaders of the Bolshevik movement, are they not? Mr. Huntington. Yes, they are the brains of the movement. Maj. Humes. Is it not a fact that Lenine in going from Switzer- land to Russia went through Germany? Mr. Huntington. Yes. , Maj. Humes. He was permitted td tf aver through Germany for the purpose of reaching Russia ? Mr. Huntington. Yes. Senator Overman. Did you hear him speak on the street? Ml-. Huntington. No ; t have never heard Lenine speak. I have heard Trotsky speak, on the street and in meetings of th6 Soviet. Senator Wolcott. Doctor, would this be a correct statement or way of summing up the purposes of this Bolshevik group as they existed at the time you have just been speaking of, namely,'that they were the enemies of all governments organized along lines other than those that met with their own fantastic notions ; and therefore they were the enemies of the United States or of the allied Govern- ments, and of Germany — enemies, I mean, to those forms of govern- ment ; that they found in their own country a people who were sym- pathetic with the allies, and in order to break that sympathy they accepted money from Germany, whose form of government they did not like, for the purpose of getting the Russian people in line with their socialistic notions; that they hoped to break down the allied sympathies in Russia, and then weld the Russians together into a Bolshevik government, expressing' the Bolshevik idea, in the hope that then they would have such strength as to carry their principles throughout the world and overthrow all established governments? Mr. Huntington. Yes ; that is true. I would like, if I could here, to read some statements of the Bolshevik government from this [in- dicating paper]. Senator Nelson. No, but, Mr. Chairman, if you will allow me; instead of getting this by piecemeal, if you can tell us — we can not stay here always — what the doctrines, and creed, and principles of government of the Bolshevik government are, that is what we would like to know, not these mere scattering quotations. Mr. Huntington. I can do that, sir. I would like, however, to read to you exactly what they say their own doctrines are. Senator Wolcott. It seems to me that is better than the doctor's interpretation of them. Mr. Huntington. In the first place, I have a circular here which I read at the time it came, which is an open circular. There is noth- ing secret about it. It is not diplomatic correspondence. It was sent to every embassy and legation in Petrograd. Senator Wolcott. Sent by whom? 85723—19 i 50 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Huntington. The Bolshevik government then located in Petrograd. The matter at issue was the matter of diplomatic couriers. Senator Wolcott. What is the date of that ? Mr. Huntington. December 15, 1917. [Eeading:] From the people's commissariat of foreign afCairs. For the information of the allied and neutral embassies and legations. * * * The fact that the Soviet Government considers necessary diplomatic relations not only with the governments hut also with the revolutionary Socialist parties, which are stiiv- ing -for the overthrow of the existing governments, is not suflBcient ground for statements to the effect that " an unrecognized government " can not have diplomatic couriers. * * * This is their own statement in a circular letter. Senator Sterling. Who issued that letter? Mr. Huntington. The commissar for foreign affaits. Senator Steeling. Lenine and Trotsky were then at the head of the Bolshevik rule or government? Mr. Huntington. Yes. Senator Steeling. That was during their regime? Mr. Huntington. Oh, yes ; that was within a month of their com- ing into power. Senator Steeling. At that time Trotsky was the commissar for foreign affairs? Mr. Huntington. Yes. Senator Nelson. The meat of that circular is simply this, that even if they had not been technically recognized as a de jure government,, they were in fact the government, and as such their couriers ought to have recognition. Is not that the substance of it ? Mr. Huntington. No, sir ; I beg your pardon. I think the meat of it is that they considered it necessary to have relations., and claimed the right to have relations, not only with established governments in our country and in other countries, but with the revolutionary so- cialist parties seeking to overthrow these governments. Senator Nelson. And did they not put it on the ground that they are a de facto government ? Mr. Huntington. I do not understand you, sir. Senator Nelson. Do you not understand a little law Latin ? Mr. Huntington. I have forgotten, mostly, what I knew. Senator Nelson. Do you know the difference between a de facto government and a de jure government? Mr. Huntington. Yes, sir; but the important thing for us is, in that statement, sir Senator Nelson. Go ahead ; go ahead. Senator Oveeman. Their purpose, then, was to overthrow all gov- ernments? Mr. Huntington. They say so. Senator Wolcott. That circular shows plainly their intention to overthrow all governments, and they wanted to establish relations with all revolutionary^ parties under these governments from which they were seeking vises for their couriers. That is the purpose of that, very clearly, to my mind. They did not pay any attention to the established governments. Mr. HuifTiNGTON. Again, from a statement from "their own lips: Sometime ago there was published in a paper called One Year of the BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 51 Eevolutlon, published in this country, some diplomatic correspond- ence. I have tested this diplomatic correspondence to see whether it took place, and it did, and it is correctly given here. In the course of the reply of Mr. Tchitcherin, of which I have the date here in my notes, he said this [reading] : To the neutral legations who protested against the cruelties of the Bolshevik regime Mr. Tchitcherin, the commissar for foreign affairs, says : " We are convinced that the masses in all countries who are writhing under the oppression of a small group of exploiters will understand that in Russia, force is being used only in the holy cause of the liberation of the people, that they will not only understand us, but will follow our example." Senator Overman. What is that document you read from? Mr. Huntington. That is a letter written by Mr. George Tchit- cherin, commissar- of foreign affairs of the Bolshevik govermnent, to the neutral legations in Russia who protested against the cruel- ties of the Bolshevik regime. It is addressed in care of the Swiss minister, dated September 5. That is only one sentence in it. Senator Overman. But the document itself, was that printed in this country? Mr. Huntington. Yes ; it has been printed in this country. How it got through here I do not know, but it has escaped the censor- ship and been printed in this country, although a diplomatic docu- ment. Senator Overman. What is the red flag on the back of that pamphlet? Mr. Huntington. That is the illustration on the cover. Senator Sterling. Have you that passage marked there, which you read? Mr. Huntington. Yes, sir. Maj. Humes. It was just after or about the time of the writing of that letter that all the representatives of the neutral Governments were compelled to leave Russia, Mr. Huntington. That was September 5 when that letter was written. We had just gone. The others followed us within a short time. Senator Overman. Were you compelled to leave, or did you leave from fear, or were you ordered to leave? Mr. Huntington. We left, sir, because we were unable to perform our functions. I mean by that that the diplomatic and consular officers could not longer treat with the de facto government; that they found it impossible to protect American citizens, which was a part of their function ; that they could not correspond with our Gov- ernment because it was forbidden. We were the only consulate gen- eral in Moscow allowed to send even a wireless, and we have found out since that most of the wireless messages we sent were not al- lowed to pass through. We have also found out that most of the wireless messages which were sent to us, which are serially numbered, never reached us. Being unable to communicate with our Govern- ments ; being treated with discourtesy ; being unable to protect the lives and property of our citizens resident there, we were scarcely in a position to render any service any more. The danger, as such, played no" part in the transaction at all, except for those who had 52 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. no work to do. For us who had work to do, had we been able to con- tinue that work, the danger would have had nothing to do with it. Senator Overman. You were not threatened? Mr. Huntington. As a matter of fact, it was dangerous, of coui'se. The British Embassy representatives were put under ai'rest. The Americans were never, until the time we left, arrested, with the ex- ception of one man who was arrested in the town of Vologda and kept under arrest some 10 days before we knew of it. They never informed us. We found it out by accident. The British and French, however, including the consular officers, were arrested, both civilians and officials. It was in the manifest impossibility of doing any work, of accomplishing anything, of being allowed to communicate with our Government at home, being isolated Senator Overman. Can you state to us the character of those cruel- ties and what was going on while j'ou were there — ^the extent of it ? Mr. Huntington. Yes ; I can to a considerable extent ; and in order to make you understand it, perhaps I could read again from the official proclamations of the Bolshevik government. Reading from the official newspapers of the Bolshevik government under date of September 2, there is the following — this was the day after we passed the border. Senator Nelson. September 2 of what year? Mr. Huntington. 1918. [Reading:] Murder of Volodarski and Urkitski — Urkitski was one of the terrorist commissars who, while our train was lying on the side track in the Finland Station, was shot by a young student who came into his office. [Continuing reading :] Murder of Volodarski and Urkitski, attempt on Lenin and shooting of masses of our comrades in Finland, Ukrania, the Don and Tshecko-Slovia, continual discovery of conspiracies in our rear, open acknowledgement of right social revolutionists party and other counter-revolutionary rascals of their part in these conspiracies, together with insignificant extent of serious repressions and shooting of masses of White Guard and bourgeoisie on the part of the Soviets, all these things show that notwithstanding frequent pronouncements urging mass terror against the social revolutionists. White Guards and bourgeoisie, no real terror exists. Such a situation should decidedly be stopped. End should be put to weakness arid softness. All right social revolutionists known to local Soviets should be arrested immediately. Numerous hostages should be taken from the bourgeois and officer classes. At the slightest attempt to resist or the slightest movement among the White Guards, shootings of masses of hostages should be begun without fail. Initiative in this matter rests especially with the local executive committees. Through the militia and extraordinary commissions, all branches of govern- ment must take measures to seek out' and arrest persons hiding under false names and shoot without fail anybody conected with the work of the White Guards. All above measure should be put immediately into execution. Indecisive action on the part of local Soviets must be immediately reported to peoples commissar for home afiairs. Not the slightest hesitation or the slightest indecisiveness in using mass terror. That is an order from the commissar for home affairs to the Soviets. Senator Overman. Explain who the White Guard are. Mr. Huntington. The White Guard are everybody except the lied Guard. The Eed Guard are nominally the loyal army, gathered BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 53 around the Bolshevik government to fight the so-called class struggle for the social revolution. Senator Wolcott. The Eed Guard are the Bolsheviks and the White Guard are everybody else? Mr. Huntington. Practically speaking, that is it. " If you are not with us, you are against us." Senator Overman. Then that order was to shoot down everybody who was not with them ? Mr. Huntington. And to shoot hostages if anything happened to any of their people. On the 11th of September, about 10 days after our departure from Eussia, the following letter was received by Maj. Allen Wardwell, commanding the American Red Cross in Eussia. Because of the shooting of a large number of people in Petrograd, Maj. Wardwell had written a letter as a Eed Cross officer to the Bolshevik govern- ment, namely to the commissar for home affairs, Mr. Tchitcherin, protesting in the name of humanity against the killings, which did not take place in field fighting, but were shootings of people against brick walls. Senator Wolcott. Massacres ; murders ? Mr. Huntington: Yes. This letter is as follows: [Republique Russe Federative (Jps Soviets Commissariat du Peupie pour Les Affaires etrangeres Le 11 Septeml>re, 1918, Moscow.] Mr. Allen Waedwell, Major Commanding the American Red Cross. Deae Sib : It is only because the body which you represent is not a political organization that I can find it compatible with my position not to repudiate ofE hand your intervention as a displaced immixtion in the affairs of a for- eign state, but to enter in the friendly spirit corresponding to the character of your organization into a discussion of the matter involved. Tou affirm that your organization did not hesitate to condemn acts of barbarity on the part of our adversaries. Where are these utterances of condemnation? When and in vehat form did the American Red Cross protest \yhen the streets of Samars were filled with corpses of young workers shot in batches by America's allies or when the prisons' of Omsk were filled with tens of thousands of the flower of the working class and the best of them executed without trial or when just now in Novorossiisk the troops of England's mercenary AlexejefE murdered in cold blood seven thousand wounded who were left behind by our retreating army, or when the oossacks of the same Alexejeff murdered without distinction the young men of their own race in whom they see a revolutionary vanguard? I would be very glad to learn what the American Red Cross has done in order to publicly brand these untold atrocities, the everyflay work of our enemies, everywliere iiracticed liy them upon our friends when they have the power to do it. But are these the only atrocities around us? In a wider field, at the present period when the oligarchies who are the rulers of the world drench the earth with streams of blood, cover it with heaps of corpses and whole armies of maimed and fill the whole world with unspeakable sufferings, why do you turn your indignation against those who, rising against this whole system of violence, oppression, and murdei' that bears as If for the sake of mockery the name of civilization, those I repeat who in their desperate struggle against the ruling system of the present world are compelled by their very position in the furnace of a civil war to strike the class foes with whom the life and struggle is raging? And in a still wider field are not the sacrifices still greater, still more innumerable, which are exacted every day on the battlefield of labor by the ruling system of exploitation which grinds youth and life force and happiness of the multi- tude for the sake of the profits of the few? How can I characterize the humanity of the American Red Cross which is dumb to the system of every- day murder and turns against those who have dared to rise against It and 54 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. surrounded by mortal enemies from all sides are compelled to strike? Against these fighters who have thrust themselves Into the flre of battle for a whole new system of human society you are not even able to be otherwise than unjust. Our adversaries are not executed as you affirm for holding other political views than ourselves, but for taking part in the most terrible of battles, in which no weapon is left untouched against us, no crime is left aside and no atrocities are considered too great when the power belongs to them. Is it not known to you that by the decree of September 3rd the death sentences are applied only for distinct crimes, and besides Randitism and ordinary crimes they are to be applied for participation in the white guard movement, that is the movement which helps to surround us everywhere with death snares, which unceasingly attacks us with fire and sword and every possible misfortune and wishes to prepare for us, if only it had the power to do so, complete extermination? You speak of execution of 500 persons in Petrograd as of one particularly striking instance of acts of like character. As for the number it is the only one. Among these 500, 200 were executed on the ground of the decision of the local organization to whom they were very well known as most active and danger- ous counter-revolutionaries nnd 300 had been selected already sometime ago as belonging to the vanguard of the counter-revolutionary movement. In the pas- sion of the struggle tearing our whole people, do you not see the sufferings, untold during generations, of all the unknown millions who were dumb during centuries, and whose concentrated despair and rage have at last burst into the open, passionately longing for a new life, for the sake of which they have the whole existing fabric to remove? In the great battles of mankind hatred and fury are even so unavoidable as in every battle and in every struggle. Do you not see the beauties of the heroism of the working class, trampled under the feet of everybody who were above them until now, and now rising in fury and pas- sionate devotion and enthusiasm to re-create the whole world and the whole life of mankind? Why are you blind to all this in the same way as you are dumb to the system of atrocities against which this working class has risen? It is only natural, then, if you are unjust against those whom you light-heartedly con- demn, if you distort even the facts of the case, if you see wanton vengeance against persons of other views there, where in reality there is the most terrible, the most passionate, the most furious battle of one world against the other, in which our enemies with deadly weapons are lurking behind every street corner, and in which the executions of which you speak, executions of real and deadly enemies, are insignificant in comparison with the horrors which these enemies try to prepare for us, and in comparison with the immeasurable horrors of the whole system with which we are at present at grips in a life and death struggle. I remain. Yours, truly, (Signed) G. Tchitchkbin. I think that is probably as good a statement as you could have of the point of view and the aims of the Bolshevik government. Senator Overman. Did you observe any of their cruelties? Did you see any of it yourself? Mr. Huntington. I have seen many arrests. I have been in prisons. I was never personally arrested. I have not been present at shootings. I have known of people being led out to be shot. Very few people are present at shootings. Satisfactory evidence had it that most of them were performed at night and in cellars, and, it was said, with Maxim silencers on the muzzles of the rifles, to muffle the sound. Friends of mine have been in prisons and have seen people daily led out for shooting, who have never come back. I have seen deportations of whole trainloads of people, herded in freight cars, taken away from their homes. Senator Overman. Women and children also? Mr. HtTNTiNGTON. Men, women, and children. Senator Overman. Was there a reign of terror there ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 55 Mr. Huntington. Very decidedly, sir; and there is no denial of it, but a justification of it, in that letter and in the other letters. If you will recall the words which I read from the same Mr. Tchitcherin to the neutral legations, you will recall that he says that the masses of the world will understand what they are doing as violence neces- sary to attain a certain end, and will not only understand it but adopt it themselves in their respective countries. If yOu have nothing more, sir, I would like to take up the economic side. Senator Nelson. I would like to hear, if you will tell us, what their plan and scheme of government is— this Bolshevik government — and what they expect to accomplish. That is more important. I would like to know what sort of a government they are seeking to establish there, and upon what principles? Mr. Huntington. Yes, sir ; I will tell you the best I know. I have been present there throughout the whole time, and I am able to read the papers, and I read them daily. There are no other papers in Russia now, and have not been for many months, but the Bolshevik papers. Long ago they suspended the papers of all parties opposed to them, saying that freedom of the press must unfortunately be sacrificed to the good of their movement. Maj. Humes. Then there is no freedom of the press in Russia under the Bolshevist government? Mr. Huntington. There is no pretense of freedom of the press, sir. Maj. Humes. Is it not a fact that the constitution of the soviet republic provides expressly for depriving people of the rights of free press and free speech, and any other rights that may be exer- cised to the detriment of the revolutionary party ? Mr. Huntington. Yes, sir; that is a part of the principle. In an- swer to your question. Senator, do I make myself plain? Senator Nelson. Well, you have not got at it yet. [Applause.] Senator Overman. What does that mean, that cheering back there? Bring an officer in here, Mr. Clerk. Senator Nelson. I want to know, in short, what their scheme and plan of government is that they are inaugurating, and propose to inaugurate. Mr. Huntington. Yes,. sir; I will tell you that, the best I can. Senator Nelson. And the methods they intend to pursue in in- augurating that government. , That is what we are anxious to know. Mr. Huntington. Briefly, this: The present state of the world is unsatisfactory. We have war. We have injustice to the gi'eat masses of the people, so they say. These are great evils. The present state of the constitution of society, which is known as the capitalist state, has outlived its usefulness ; has shown itself unable to cope with these great injustices, war, and unequal distribution of wealth. The capi- talist state of society must, therefore, go. To get rid of the capitalist state of society, which is a long habit with human nature, is a very difficult task. It is faced primarily by the difficulty that those who have property part with it unwillingly. Now, in order to get rid of this capitalist state of society we are going to have the socialist state of society, loosely, because the definitions of various people differ, but in general, a state of society whereby the government, the state, owns all the means of production, factories, farms, railroads, in- 56 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. dustries, steamship lines, etc., ^Yhereby there is no property ex- cept — I do not know about personal property; that depends on the views of the individual persons — but there is no great property, no industrial property, no fartiing property, in private ownership, but only that of the state ; that by removing from the capitalist class the temptation of money g'etting, by the fact that they can no longer ac- cumulate wealth but become govex-nment servants, like those of us who are to-day in the employ of the government, by removing those temptations, war and injustice are obviated. Senator Nelson. One part of their creed, then, is to divest private ownership of all property and property rights, and confer it upon the state or the government? Mr. Huntington. Very definitely; yes, sir. Senator Nelson. That is one of the primary articles of faith. Then, after they have done that, after they have taken, for instance, the land from the private owners, what do they provide as to the utilization of the land after that ? Mr. Huntington. That is to come later. If 1 may go on, I would like to answer that in a moment. Senator Nelson. Go on; yes. Mr. Huntington. To realize this is very difficult. They have found, naturally, there is great opposition on the part of those who own the property. Their aims, they say, are the aims of the socialist movement throughout the world for many years, but the socialist movement throughout the world, which is opposed to them to-day, , has been unsuccessful because it has tried to work in the parliamen- tary manner, by convincing people, sending representatives to par- liament and voting their measures through. They therefore have to resort to compulsion. To compel, they divest those who have prop- erty of that property by force. Should they resist, they may even kill them, as you have seen, and justify that. Senator Nelson. In short, they propose to divest the ownei-s of their property, by violence, if need be ? Mr. Huntington. If need be. Senator NEL'iON. And without any compensation? Mr. Huntington. Without any compensation. In the interim when their new state is being prepared — an interim of indefinite length — they provide for the so-called dictatorate of the proletariat; that is, to take and arbitrarily divide all mankind into so-called bourgeois, that is the capitalists — and in that they include everj^one from those who own the smallest houses, right through to a million- aire. They arbitrarily divide all mankind into that class — and, on the other hand, the proletariat, who ha^-e no property holdings. They want to push out of the way the upper class. They do not con- template the participation of this class in the government. They contemplate the participation only of the proletariat in the govern- ment, and that is why, on this question of a dictature of the prole- tariat—that is, when they have finished their revolution in Eussiaj not the original revolution but their revolution— they intend to keep the formerly propertied classes from voting in the new government whichi they will have established. The dictature of the proletariat is fraught with difficulty because, especially in a countiy like Eussia, where due to the tyranny and BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 57 laziness of the olcl regime, the proletariat had very few chances, the proletariat are not educated. So they need leaders, a,nd Mr. Lenine and Mr. Trotsky and their associates put themselves forward as the leaders. ' The" result is that whereas there is on paper a complete system of voting, of representation, the central executive committee of all. the Soviets — which, as you have rightly stated, are placed throughout the country wherever their power extends — is dominated by a few brainy men, fanatics like Lenine and Trotskj\ The for- merly propertied classes — and of course in their division they make it arbitrarj', as they like — could not participate in this council, nor is it expected that they will. At some distant date, when this prelimi- nary ground work is carried out, it is contemplated to permit these people who, by that time, perhaps have had a change of heart, or to permit their children, to participate in the new social state which has then been reached.- ■ This is an interregnum in which the proletariat conducts the didtature. Senator Nelson. In that term " proletariat " you include not only workmen but others — peasants? Mr. HtJNTiNGTON.' Yes; that term originally included workmen only, but was exfehded to peasants; but they came from the party of worlarien in the ''eifies in former times, and not the peasants. Senator Nelson. What has become of the old nihilist element? Are they mixed into this new scheme ? Mr. Huntington. I am not competent to pass on that. Maj. Hx;mes.>' Is there nOt a distinction, in their ■ application of their laws and -their administration, between peasants and what they term the " poor " peasants ? Mr. HtJNTiiiGTON. Gn that comes again the question. I told you that they divided; mankind arbitrarily into two classes; the bour- geois, as they sayj-thatis those who have Capital, and the proletariat. Of course, they make the division, they make the distinction, and they put in "their divi^si'dns whom they like, because it is an arbitrary matter. In Russia there are',' in most peasant communities, peasants who have, under the systems which have been provided, bought lands of their ovifri'."- There are certain ones, who, as it happens in every community, are better provided with the good things of life, the harder workers of more energetic, and they are systematically excluded by the Bolsheviks and placed opposite, in the community, to the so-called poor peiasants; those who have little property, who in the old vodka days had been addicted to drunkenness, or who econoiriically. have inade poor progress in life. In the villages those two groups of men are set against each other. Senator Nelson. Is hot this true, when you come back to the peasantry and all, farmers, that the ownership of land is in what they- call the mir^ the village community; that they are settled in villages, in communities, and the title of the land is in the mir or in the community— in the municipality, as we call it here^-and that they from year to year apportion parts of the land to be used by cerfein peasant^*? In other words, the peasants are not cdm- plete'.-owners, iri:the- sense in which our farmers are owners, but the ownership of theiand is in the community, the mir, and the mir distributes the • usfe of the land among the peasants ? Is not that the condition? ' - 58 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Huntington. That is true, Senator, for about 80 per cent of the country. Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Huntington. The remaining one-fifth, we will say, of the lands are in private ownership. Senator Nelson. In large estates? Mr. Huntington. No; I do not speak of those now. I leave those quite out of account. I am speaking of the peasants, the 20 per cent ; and that varies according to the portion of the country. Private peasant ownership is more in the south and west than in the north. They are not only sometimes the holders of the mir, in which they have a part, but they own land of their own, which it was permitted them to buy or arranged for them to buj' under cer- tain reforms introduced by the old imperial government. Senator Nelson. That is mostly in southern Russia ? Mr. Huntington. The majority of it is southern Russia and western Russia. Senator Nelson. In what we call the Ukraine ? Mr. Huntington. The Ukraine is the heart of South Russia. Senator Overman. Now, having got this property, taken from the people who owned it, into the State, what do they propose to do with it? Mr. Huntington. Just the same as the ideal socialists. I sup- pose you are speaking of the fact Senator Overman. What do they propose to accomplish? What is the end? When they get all this property in the State, what do they propose to do with it ? Mr. Huntington. It is proposed that life should go on very much as it does now, except very much better ; that we should have food, and clothing, and transportation, and all those things under the State instead of in private ownership; that all of us will be employees of the State and not employees of private concerns. Senator Overman. All government officers? Mr. Huntington. Yes. Senator Overman. Everybody will be a government officer? Mr. Huntington. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. How do they propose to handle the manufactur- ing industries under the new regime ? How do they propose to oper- ate them ? Now, we will say that the workmen take possession of a big industrial plant under this system, what do they propose to do after they have taken possession, and how do they propose to operate? Mr. Huntington. What happened, sir, was this : In the beginning of their administration they immediately provided for the so-called control of production of the factories by the workmen, and this went into effect; and workmen's committees did actually take over most factories. Senator Nelson. In other words, they were to be run by the work- men themselves? Mr. Huntington. Yes, sir. In the original legislation, as I remem- ber it, the proprietor would be in a manner engaged as an expert assistant. Indeed, it was first provided, I believe, that he should receive a rental for his work, and he would participate in the man- agement. They would get the benefit of his experience. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 59 Senator Nelson. They went so far, however, in their program as to recognize the fact that they needed experts who belonged to the capitalist class, who were termed intellectuals, and to say that they would employ some of them in the first instance to assist them in running the factories ; was not that true ? Mr. Huntington. They took over the factories with a great deal of enthusiasm, but very shortly, in most cases, came to grie£ That is, a variety of things happened; either the grief remamed or in some cases tactful employers made an arrangement with their men whereby really their brains were used in the production, and there was a modus operandi worked out between them and the factory and the factory was enabled to go on. Where that did not take place the factory came to grief, as most of them did. Even where that did take place, under the very unusual circum- stances the operation of the factory was hardly an operation of nor- mal times, where an income has to be earned on the investment. Senator Nelson. Of course they expected to operate all the rail- roads — this government ? Mr. Huntington. Seventy per cent of the total mileage has always been operated by the govermnent in Russia. Senator Nelson. They have been operated by the government, so that the transition was not so great ? Mr. Huntington. No, sir. . Senator Nelson. But what did they propose to do after they had seized the lands and taken possession of them? How did they pro- pose to utilize those lands, and what show did they propose to give the peasants ? ' Mr. Huntington. In the first place, they nationalized the land. It became the property of the state ; and whereas there has not been time in such an enormous place as Russia to work all these things out, in general they gave immediate order to the peasants to take the land of the contiguous estates of the landholders. There was not much order about that, and that has resulted in difficulty; but they were going on this simple plan, to take the land and then divide it up amongst themselves. Senator Nelson. When the peasants divided the land up, were they to get title to their little patches of land ? Mr. Huntington. Oh, no, sir; because the land is nationalized. It belongs to the state. Senator Nelson. They were simply to cultivate it as a species of tenants ? Mr. Huntington. Yes, sir. Maj. Humes. In that connection, a paragraph from the Soviet Re- public constitution might be of interest as to its provisions on that subject. [Reading:] For the purpose of realizing the principle of the socialization of land, private ownership in land is abolished and the entire land fund is declared the property of the people and Is turned over to the toilers without any indemnity upon the I>rinciple of equalization of Innd-allotments. And again: All forests, mineral wealth, water power and waterways of public importance, as well as all live stock and agricultural implements, all model landed estates and agricultural enterprises are declared national property. 60 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. As a first step to the complete transfer of factories, mills, miues, railroads and other means of production and transportation into property of the Workers' and Pensants' Soviet Republic, the law ((iiicoTiiini; the workers' control and concerning the Supreme Council for National Economy, which aims at securing the power of the tollers over the exploiters, is hereby confirmed. Senator Xelsox. That is ^erv good. That ought to go into the record, if it is not in already. Maj. HyjiEs. There are just two or three more sentences covering that subject. [Continuing reading:] The 3rd Convention of the Soviets considers tlie Soviet law concerning the annulling (repudiation) of loans contracted by the governments of the Tzar, the landlords and the capitalists, as the first blow at international banking and financial capital and expresses the conviction that the Soviet government will advance steadfastly along this path until complete vieti>ry of the interna- tional workers against the yoke of capitalism is secured. The principle of the transfer of all banks to the property of the workers' and peasants' state, as one of the conditions of emancipation of the toiling masses from the yoke of capital, is hereby reaffirmed. For the purpose of doing away with parasitical elements in society and of organizing the economic affairs of the country, universal obligatory labor service is established. In order to secure full power for the toiling masses and to. remove every opportunity for reestablishin'g the government of the exploiters, the principle of arming the toilers, of forming a Socialist Red Army of the workers and peasants, and of completely dLsarming the ijroperty-holdiug classes is hereby decreed. Senator Oveemax. Proceed, Doctor. Mr. HuxTiNGTON. Eeturning to the Senator's question about the factories, I would like to complete that by saying that whereas the first phase was the workmen's control, wliereby a committee was formed in each factory to take charge of that factory, the second phase was later introduced by nationalizing of the factories, just in the same manner as the land has been nationalized. In other words, whereas in the first place theoretically the factory was not imme- diately taken out of the hands of the owner, but was to be turned over to the control of his workmen, by the decree of nationalization the factory passed from the ownership of the former owner into th« ownership of the State. Senator Nelson. To be operated by the workmen? Mr. Huntington. To be operated under what was called the Su- preme Council of National Economy. That introduced practical difficulties again, since that factory was then to be operated theoreti- cally as one of a chain, one of a system, and that produced friction and quarrels between separate factories, practically, for the reason, of course, that some factories were better provided with the raw ma- terials than others, and in a system of distribution whereby each was to receive a fair part would have to give up, if they were better provided, perhaps, some of the materials which they had, which would stop their production earlier. The great fact in all the in- dustry there is, of course, that it is not running at the present time, unless you want to say that a few machines, or one isolated factory, or something of that kind, is running; but it is, on the whole,, not running, for the very good reason that there are no raw materials present to work on, neither iron, coal, petroleum, nor cotton; and cotton spinning and cotton weaving is the chief industry in Russia, the biggest one in Russia aside frm farming. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. &1 Senator Nelson. Here is a matter that occurs to me. After the^ have succeeded in nationalizing all the land and all the industries, in other words, taking it over by the Government and operating it by the Government, what is their scheme of taxation for securing revenue to run the Government, and who is to pay the tayxes? Mr. Huntington. That is not clear to me in theory, and in practice there was no system of taxation put through. The only taxation that I have seen was in the matter of contributions levied on the capi- talist class. Take this instance. In the newspapers of Omsk, in Siberia, which I have seen, and of which I have copies, there ap- peared a list of the men or firms in the town who were to pay 25,000 or 50,000 or 100,000 roubles, or whatever it may be. The agency of the International Harvester Co., when our train passed through Novo-Nikolaevsk (in Siberia) in March had just been called upon to pay a fine, I think, of 35,000 rubles, and I Avas asked, as an em- bassy representative, at that time to send a telegram to the local soviet pointing out that this was an American concern and should not be asked to pay this fine. Apart from the contributions, their revenue system is chiefly the printing press. Senator Nelson. You mean printing bills and bonds? Mr. Huntington. Printing paper money, yes; and when the ob- jection is raised to that that they have long since passed any gold reserve, the answer is simply that since the land is now nationalized, all of Russia belongs to the Russian Government, and all of Russia is certainly worth all the paper that has been issued up to this time. Senator Nelson. Yes; but you spoke about collecting the taxes. After they have been divested of all their property, and it has all been condemned and taken over by the State, there are no more capitalists. There can not be any more taxes, can there? Mr. Huntington. There will not be now; but there were at that time. At that time they did not take a man's bank account from him. They forbade him access to his bank account, but his account re- mained on the books, supposedly, of the bank. They could force him to sign a check against that account. They could also force people who had no bank account to dig up cash. I personally lived in Siberia, in Irkutsk, with a former merchant who had such a con- tribution levied on him, and who borrowed the money from his friends to pay it. He did so against the advice of many Russians, and against our advice, because we thought that he would be asked for a second contribution — that he would be askecl a second time ; but he actually went out and borrowed the money from his friends who had it put away in chimneypieces and stockings, or under mattresses — who had been able to save it, in other words — in order to avoid being sent to prison, which was the alternative. Senator Wolcott. You say that in defense of their printing-press money they say that the State owns the land and that Russia is worth as miich money as has been issued. That is their answer ? Mr. Huntington. That is one of their answers. Senator Wolcott. Do you know whether anjj^body eVer suggested to them that that is rather insecure, because if the paper money is issued and is in sight to be collected, the fellow that gets the land will have it taken away from him again? Is there any answer to that, that you have heard ? 6^ BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Huntington. Oh, they have an answer for almost anything. Senator WoLCOTT. It would be a curious one, to that. Mr. Huntington. Most of the answers are curious, from a normal man's view. The thought, processes of those people are not in the usual grooves. About conditions, may I speak as to conditions as they exist there now, as I saw them before I left Senator Overman. That is what we want to hear. Mr. Huntington (continuing). And what they have become since. I beg permission to read here, because I have been so often asked whether there has been starvation in the cities of Russia, three letters written by a woman who was formerly a clerk, a translator in the American Embassy, and written to a friend of her's in this country. The letters are dated September 16, 20, and 23. Senator Wolcott. Of what year ? Mr. Huntington. Nineteen eighteen. That is, they are only a few months old. The first letter I will quote from is as follows. The original is in the hands of the young man to whom it was written. It is dated September 16, 1918. "^[Reading:] I am glad you are not here just now; living conditions are awfully hard. Have you ever seen people dying on the street? I did, three times, twice it was men, workmen apparently, once an old woman. One man fell down in the Furshtadtskaya, the other on the Liteinye, when I walked home from the office last Sunday. Maybe it was from cholera, maybe from starvation. The woman died on the Ussacheff Pereoulck. She was sitting quite a while on the pave- ment, then quietly laid down. Nobody paid any attention to her. Later on a Red Cross car carried her away. But horses are not removed, when they die on the streets they just lie there for weeks, and hungry dogs tear their bodies to pieces. I don't think the people died from cholera, they were not sick, just horribly thin and pale. It's awfully hard ; I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself. These three cases Illustrate to you the conditions of Petrograd better than descriptions. People are dying quietly, horribly quietly, without any groan or curse, poor helpless creatures, slaves of the terrible rgglme of to-day. I think that's really the only thing the Russian people can do well. Altogether Petrograd is a dead town now. People are very, very few, nearly no " eats." Trams are half empty, half of the shops are closed. Heaps of offices opened, " Commission offices " as they call themselves, buying and selling furniture, tableware, linen, articles of luxury, etc., of people who leave the country or who just sell everything they possess so as not to starve. Most precious, vulgar, or intimate things of housekeeping are sold publicly. It's sometimes comical, most times most sad and shocking. There seems to be nothing precious any more in families, everything is to be bought. You cannot imagine what is going on in this country. Everything what is cultured, wealthy, accomplished or educated is being prosecuted and systemati- cally destroyed. But you know it all through papers, don't you? We all here live under a perpetual strain under fear of arrest and execution. Yesterday bulletins appeared on corners of all streets announcing that the allies and the bourgeoisie have spread cholera and hunger all over Russia and calling to open slaughter of the latter. Do you remember the little market on the Basseinaja where they used to sell food stufE? It is now transferred into a place where people of society sell all their belongings, overcoats, furs, shoes, kitchenware, table and bed linen, etc. ; they sell everything right on the streets. The food question is terribly acute. Petrograd lives on herrings and apples. Yes, also on " vobla." That is fish, dried in the sun. The size of it is about the same as of a small herring's, and it smells horribly. But it can be eaten when properly soaked and boiled. We always used to know " vobla " as a swearword. But now I know that it is a flsh, and eatable. You know, Stranger, people here are starving in accordance with four cater gories. The first category (workmen) get i pound of bread every two -days. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 63 i. e., J of a pound a day, and two herrings ; 2 category workmen who do easy work, get i pound of bread every two days, and two herrings. The tliird cate- gory, people who " drink other people's blood and exploit other people's work," i. e., people who live on mental work, (sic!) get two herrings every two days, and no bread, and the fourth category (not mentioned on the inclosed slip) also people who " drink, etc." get nothing at all, sometimes two herrings. I in- Close a slip from our official paper, which mentions these four categories. The paper is called " Severanaja Communa " (The Northern Commune). People may, of course buy food besides the food they get from cooperative stores, mentioned above, and which is at a reasonable price (if a herring a day and iw lb. of bread can be. called food) but the prices are enormous. One lb. of black bread costs Rs. 15. I should say we get more rubles for a dollar in Kussia than you can get in New York. We paid 10 cents for a ruble up to the time of leaving, which was therefore 10 rubles to the dollar, and I shall divide the ruble prices and give you the prices immediately in gold. [Continuing reading:] One lb. of black bread costs $1.50, 1 lb. of white flour Rs. 17 to 20, black flour $1.10 to $1.20. Potatoes cost 32 to 38 cents a lb., butter $2, and so on Do you remember the big store on the corner of Snamenskaja and Kirochnaja, where soldiers used to live and where there were once on the windows heaps ot rotten potatoes? The shop is now occupied by a commissioner's office, who sells everything in the world, and on the corner there is quite a little market, consisting of ladies and children of society, who sell lumps of sugar at Rs. 1.20 apiece and thin slices of black bread, I don't know at what price. I, myself, have seen this, on August 28, 1918. [Continuing read- ing:] And this year Russia has unusually good crops ! People who have a little bit of money left, run away from Russia. They sell everything they possess and just run. They go mainly to the Baltic provinces and to Ukrainia. And you know, its the German consulate there who helps them to get permits and "tickets. I don't know how the Germans manage to do it, but I know for sure that they do. They do it also very willingly if people get them good money in exchange of their Kerenki, which they have heaps. That is, the money of the old regime, of the Czar, in exchange for the kerenki. Kerenki is the little money that was brought out at the time of the Kerensky government, in denominations of 20 and 40 rubles, and which is about the size of my finger, and which is not pretty, and which is often looked down upon by the people ; and they prefer the fine looking bills of the former day. Here is another letter. [Reading:] We have four new decrees now. The first concerns the loding question ; the second, forced hard labor for the bourgeoisie; the third, requisition of warm clothes for the Bed Army, and the fourth concerns distribution of food. First about lodgings. Comrade ZinoviefE, little Jew Apfelbaum, on a meet- ing of the Soldiers' and Workmen's deputies said, that "the bourgeoisie has not been enough ' reduced to beggary ' yet ; that they still have to give back what they have acquired by way of exploiting of oppressions, by way of blood and sweat of the workman. They have now to give their comfortable lodgings and furniture. The war has temporarily diverted the attention of the Soviet power from this point, which can as well be pressed on the bourgeoisie. They still have much. The best houses, the best apartments and shops belong to them. It is time to put an end to it. The workmen, in spite of the decree, still show fear, indecisiveness. Socialism is not carried through in this way. Further, the speaker refers to Engles and other Socialists and Paris com- muneers who discussed the lodging question. "The workmen must come up from their caves into the upper floors. Half measures must not be tolerated. The workmen must take the initiative themselves, they must abandon their psychology of slaves, that in rich houses, not filled up by workmen they will feel uncomfortable. We do not want Nevsky, this street of prostitutes, we want 64 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Kamenoostrovsky, Vassily, Ostroff, etc. Workmen had enough courage, to go on the barricades, to stand against imperialistic bayonets, to .break down the im- perialistic power, but to put their own lives and the lives" of tlieir J;amilies in better conditions they are iifraid. If they will need money or means of transportation they will get them. If a milliard will }}e needed — the Soviet will give it. The lack of courage still proves that a little of a counterrevolu- tioneer still sticks in our souls and shows resistance. Wdrljmen still .consider themselves the fourth class, while they are the first now since a long time. And soon the time will come now, that they will be the first in the whole world." Referring to reasons why workmen themselves hesitate to'' socialize the lodgings. Comrade Zinovieff gives one of them as fear of, workmen families to be sent back to their old lodgings by the " White Guard," i. e., allies, bour- geoisie, etc. " But the proletariat should be quiet in this" respect," he says, " if the White Guard comes. They will send away hundreds of thousands, a whole million, maybe, but not to their former lodgings, but to the other world. But this will never be. Their hands are too short. It is nearly a wjiole year now since the proletariat holds the power in its hands, and this power grows ; gets more and more strong. The women of the working class- must kno>>?' that during the French revolution laundry women understood that they had the right to travel in royal carriages. They took them and travelled. The diffi- culties are now behind us. We are the ruling class. We will" show the bour- geoisie that the revolution has been carried through for the sake of realistic advantages, and everything that formerly belonged to the class of the oppressors will now be taken by the people." He further refers to the example given by the Red Giiard. They showed that they knew how to treat the belongings of the tyrants and oppressors. "After Nikolai Romanoff has been executed," he continues, " about 600 suits of linen have been taken by the Red Guard. And they proved that they could wear them not any worse than their former owner." Maj. HuJiES. Doctor, you have had attention called in that letter to people dying in the streets of Petrograd. What, of your own knowledge, do you know about the actual conditions, the living condi- tions and the terrorism in Russia, and the means that are used by the Government to maintain itself? Mr. HuNTixGTON. Of my own knowledge I know the conditions in Moscow during the last few months, where I lived in the consulate general, and I not only had my own observation, but was at the center, where all the representatives of the consulates placed in dif- ferent parts of the country sent their reports. I have been on two visits to Petrograd, one in June and another when we passed out in August. I have been over the entire trans- Siberian line from Petrograd to Irkutsk, east. I have lived in Irkutsk for two months, and participated in the life of the town as much as anyone would who came into the town. I have dealt with and seen people in the town, school-teachers, merchants.; dealt with the Soviets in business matters, on cases of American goods; have been at the railway stations and have seen the Austro-BLxingarian armed guards, who were armed to fight also for the social revolution, and had been made citizens of this soviet republic ; I have talked to rail- road men, to station masters, to self-made men, to farmers, to peas- ants; I have been in the Maj. HujiES. '\'\Tiat have you seen in all this experience with reference to terrorism and the conduct and practical application of the policies of the Bolshevist regime? Mr. Huntington. I have seen the complete overturn of all we know in our present life, and absolute chaos in all htiman relations. Maj. Httmes. How is the control maintained? Is it maintained because the people are with the Bolshevist government, or is it main- BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 65 tained through terrorizing the people, or in what mani. ^^^|o they maintain themselves? Mr. Huntington. It is maintained absolutely by terror. They gained that power by a sudden coup d'etat in Petrograd and Moscow, by promises to a people who had been duly prepared by eight months of propaganda, for which Germany had contributed large sums. They were able to produce the coup d'etat bj'^ the use of soldiers in the capital, and by promising to the crowds peace, land, and bread. They maintain their power by owning the machine guns and the arms, and getting control of those which they did not have in the beginning; by the use of terror; by the use of taking hostages; by the use of any unsci-upulous methods which, as you have seen by what I have read, they do not denj^, but justify, and by the help of mer- cenaries like the Letts from the Baltic Provinces, and Chinese soldiers, such as they embrace out in Siberia, and out in Siberia in one case where they interested Austro-Hungarian soldiers, as in the case of the trainload armed, which I saw, and which were being sent out to fight. Their present armj^ to-day consists of a corps of Lettish merce- naries and Chinese mercenaries, to which they have added, by i threats — threats perS'onally as to themselves and as to their wives and children — citizens who no doubt serve only because of fear of what will be done by the Bolshevik government to their families, and also because by serving they secure food and clothing. Their present armies are formed in this way. They are not formed of enthusiastic people fighting for a great cause, but they are formed of desperate people who hope by service in the army to be clothed and fed. Maj. Humes. You have referred to this government as a social- istic state. Are we to understand from that that the Government, as now constituted, represents the socialist movement of the socialist elements of Russia, or does it simply represent one party or one ele- ment of the socialist movement in Russia? Mr. Huntington. It represents only one group of the socialists of Russia ; and to show that, I need only say that in the constituent assembly which was finally held in Petrograd and sat — 'at least pre- pared one day and sat for a second day — and where I was present, by having been allowed in there by sailor guards who were posted at the street corners, in that assembly they had a large majority against them, and they disbanded the assembly because of that fact, and the large majority of that whole gathering were socialists, socialists by conviction, chiefly of the so-called social revolutionary party, the party of the peasant socialists. I think that that constituent _as- semblv, which so far as I know is the last really democratic meeting that has been held in Russia, is a sufficient answer to that question. I can also cite, however, the treatment of such great groups of socialists — although these are not political groups — as the coopera- tive societies who are formed chiefly of socialists. These societies find themselves in strong oppostion to the Bolshevik power, but are forced to o-o on with it. For a long time the Bolshevik power feared to touch their organization, because it was democratic, and reaches the hearts and pocketbooks of the people pretty closely ; but lately they have gained courage in that regard, and they have put a com- 85723—19 5 66 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. missarf?t^°Jie organization of the largest cooperative in central Rus- sia and they have also taken over the bank of the cooperative socie- ties — the stockholders of which are peasants — and have their mem- bers among the directors of that bank. Maj. Humes. Have you any idea what portion of the socialist movement in Russia is represented in the present government 'i Mr. Huntington. When the Bolshevik movement began, because of the economic disintegration, because of the anarchy of mind of a people held in political oppression, and with no education, because of the sins of the old regime, they had a considerable vogue, without question, in Petrograd and Moscow, and extended a sort of power — not perfect power, but a sort of power — even out into Siberia. I have seen that. But as time went on and they did not fulfill their prom- ises, they did not get peace and did not get bread, and the distribu- tion of land only caused trouble and friction among the peasants. I have seen late advices from the land, not from the state owners, that peasants in many parts of the country are now wishing to pay for the land, and hesitating to plow the land which they took, because they feel they would like to pay for it, because they have lots of paper money and would like to pay for it and clear the title. When they promised peace, land and bread, and did not get any of them, they began to lose adherents; and they lost, first, the peasants, because the peasants in Russia, who form 85 per cent of that great population, who are not nationally minded, whose education and form of environment have been very local, and who did not take a lively interest as a mass in any movement whose chief motive was to get land — when those peasants had got the land, as they thought, they were out of the game. They were further driven out of the game by the requisitions of food by the Bolsheviks. When our train was lying at one point in eastern Russia in February, 1918, where we lay for several days, the Red Guards arrived with machine guns and sent telegrams through the telegraph office in the station, and I was able to read these tele- grams. Through these telegrams the leader of these Red Guards reported that he had sent his command out into the country among the peasants and that he had been defeated, and he asked in one of his telegrams for reinforcements. Further, while certain of our party were drinking tea in the house of a prosperous peasant, the house was surrounded by Red Guards composed of the riffraff of the village. It is this " peasant poor " that Lenine incited to civil war against their better-off brother peasants. I cite that merely as a case in point, showing how they have sent squads into the country demanding food, and the peasants ask them to give in exchange for the food manufactured articles instead of money, of which they have plenty, and which is useless to them; they ask for shoes and cloth and other articles, and the Bolsheviks refuse to give these articles to the peasants, and when the peasants refuse to sell them food they take it by force, and that only causes the peasants to hide what they have, and in certain cases, where they have arms, to fight. They have lost, therefore, the confidence of the peasants, and the peasants form 85 per cent of the Russian people. Therefore, I can not see how they can claim to-day politically to control the peasants. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 67 Now, as to the workmen, we have the best of advice now that they have lost most of them. The workmen of Eussia are about 7 per cent, or perhaps it is 8 — about 7 or 8 per cent, I think — in the great cities, chiefly. These men have neither food nor peace. They are having almost continuous warfare ever since the peace with Germany, and they are not satisfied, either; and they are not to be reckoned to-day as adherents of the Bolshevik regime, although that regime claims them most vociferously, and in order to secure their support has taken from the factories certain of the elite or pick of the workmen and made them commisars. That has not, however, been enough under the conditions, under their economic failure, to realize the paradise which they promised, and hold the workmen. Therefore, I feel that if the peasants are 85 per cent and the workmen are 7 per cent, that makes 92 per cent, and if they can not be said to have those two — not to speak of the higher classes, which I do not mention in this connection at all— I can not feel that they have to-day a very large following in Russia. (At 1.10 o'clock p. m. the subcommittee took a recess until 2.30 o'clock p. m.) AFTERNOON SESSION. .The subcommittee reconvened, pursua,nt to .thfe^4;aking of the recess, at 2.30 o'clock p. m. *- " TESTIMONY OF MR. WILLIAM CHAPIN HUNTINGTON— Resumed. Maj. Humes. Doctor, this morning you gave us some idea of the comparative strength and following of the various parties in Eussia, which indicated that the present Government represented less than 10 per cent of the people. Now, if that is true, how do they main- tain their power or maintain the de facto government? Mr. Huntington. In the first place, they have the machine guns. They have got the arms. Maj. Humes. How do they use the machine guns? Where have they got them and how do they use them, and what do they use them for? Mr. Huntington. The machine gun is the weapon, par excellence, for use in towns, on the roads, and for use in the country villages if there is a peasant uprising; and also for obtaining grain; and they have not only the machine guns, but the transport. It was due also to the presence of German officers that they have more than once won. They also have the press, because for several months now there has been no liberty for the press in Eussia. They do not permit any of the so-called bourgeois papers, which were formerly published, to come out. Maj. Humes. Do they permit any socialist papers of other groups than their own groups to publish papers? Mr. Huntington. No; there are none except the official organs of the so-called Soviet Government published at this time in bol- shevik Eussia. Having the press, having the arms, and then having the railway lines, although the railway men themselves, particularly 68 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. the higher classes, the locomotive engineers, the conductors, and fire- men and station masters, are not for them, they are able to control the country pretty well. They have, of course, the telegraph. Maj. Humes. Do hostages figure at all in their control? Mr. Huntington. The hostage system which they use is the same as the German system. They take hostages for the actions of some one whom they vvish to control. The father of a young girl who was my secretary, an Englishman who had lived in Russia for many years, was walking one night, smoldng a cigar, in the garden of the Church of the Saviour. He was arrested, with every one else in the garden, and taken off. They found out about it by chance; other- wise thej^ would not have known. The girls went to the Kremlin; where they found out that he had been taken, and asked for what he had been arrested, and were jeered at, and told that he had already been executed. They proceeded and saw the second highest man, and he told them that there was not anything to be done about it; that he did not know anything about their father, and his case would come up when the time came. The other men in the office told them that their father had been killed. They were then told that one of the Red Cross representatives was the only one that would be allowed to find out anything about him, and see him, so that one of the Red Cross representatives went, at my request, to find out about this unfortunate man, against whom there is no accusation whatever, or any charge brought, and he spoke to the assistant to Peters, who received him kindly and said. " Yes; I will do the best I can, and I will make a note of it, but I do not know just what I can do. I have to put so many people to death every day that I am tired at night." That is one of the meth- ods which is used. Another method is the brandishing of force before one. In Irkutsk, in Siberia, where T lived, there was daily machine-gun practice, so called, in a little vard on one of the main streets, so that as the passers-by passed down the street they might hear the noise and rattle of the machine guns; which for people who had just been through the social revolution as they had, was, of course, a little bit annoying, and tended to keep people on edge. The Peter and Paul Prison in Petrograd was filled with hostages of this kind. The system was quite universal. That was another part of the terror. They never have denied the terror. You heard this morning the official proclamation read, in which they are instructed to do this very thing, and they do not deny these methods. They justify them. Maj. Humes. "^'^Tiat is the attitude of the Government, as it is con- stituted, toward the church ? Mr. Huntington. The attitude in practice is very hostile. In theory it is neutral. In theory, the church is a cult, recognized as a cult of people who have the right of congregation like any sect or cult, and this sect or cult occupies a church building nationalized by the Government — because of course the church properties are na- tionalized, as is other property — and they can meet in this church, and I believe, are supposed to pay rent. I do not know whether the rent has been paid or not. That is the theoretical status. Theoreticallv, I think, any religion, any cult, is tolerated. In practice the attitude is BOI^HEVIK PBOPAGANDA. 69 one of extreme hostility, if only for the reason that the leaders of the movement are, of course, very much opposed to orthodox Chris- tianity. Senator Wolcott. Are they in favor of any particular religion? Mr. Huntington. Not the leaders of this movement themselves; no, sir. The leaders of the movement, I should say, are about two- thirds Russian Jews and perhaps one-sixth or more of some of the othemationalities, like the Letts or the Armenians. The assistant in the foreign office was an Armenian. Then there are the Georgians; that is, the so-called Gruzinians of the Caucasus, and the remaining number Slavs. The superiority of the Jews is due to their intel- lectual superiority, because the average Jew is so much better edu- cated than the average Russian; and also, I think, to the fact that the Hebrew people have suffered so in the past in Russia that it has inevitably resulted in their cherishing a grudge which has been worked out by the movement. It is only fair, however, to say that the best of the Hebrew people in Russia, among whom are some of the finest in the world, and the greatest strugglers for human liberty in the world, have dis- approved of this thing and have always disapproved it, and fear its consequences for their own people. Senator Overman. What was the established religion there? Mr. Huntington. The so-called Eastern Orthodox Church, which came from the church of Constantinople in the ninth century. Mis- sionaries were sent out from Constantinople who converted Russia, and it has gone on ever since. Senator Wolcott. Commonly called the Greek Church? Mr. Huntington. Commonly called the Greek Church, which separated from the Roman Church at the time of the schism, and it has gone on its own way ever since. Maj. Humes. I want to read this from paragraph 13, page 32, of the Soviet constitution : For the purpose of securing for the toilers real freedom of conscience, the church is separated from the state, and the school from the church, and the freedom of religious and antlreligious propaganda is secured for all citizens. What became of the church property in Russia ? Mr. Huntington. Theoretically, the status of the property is that of nationalization. Practically, where it was needed as they thought for any purpose that they might have, it was taken over, which in the eyes of the pious was, of course, desecration. In Irkutsk the theological seminary was taken over, and they could not rest with taking the ordinarj' rooms, but they desecrated the chapel. In the Kremlin there was an old monastery very much revered amono- Russians, an ancient citadel, and from that the monks were expelled. Priests have often been arrested. Sometimes they have been put to death. The persecution is constant. It is, however, I think, having a salutary effect on the church, which from being a spoiled creature of the state in former times is now, under suffering, reforming and being cleansed; but the sufferings of the people and the church- o'oers are very great. In the end the church will be strengthened. 70 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Maj. Htjmes. What was done with the personal pi'operty of the church, gold and silver ornaments, or anything of value, of a per- sonal nature ? Mr. Huntington. You probably i*efer to the altar, the sanctuary ornaments, I imagine. There there were cases of looting, but how general I do not know. I know of specific cases which have come up before us, but I do not know how general that looting has been. Maj. HuJiES. There has been, you say, in particular instances that you know of? Mr. Huntington. Yes, sir. Maj. Humes. You stated this morning that you had 'attended meetings of the Soviets in the constituent assembly. How was the constituent assembly conducted? Was it a representative body that controlled its own deliberations or was it controlled by some one else ? Mr. Huntington. The constituent assembly was a bone of conten- tion in Russia for a long time. Sometimes the Bolsheviks claimed to want it very much, and other times they did not. The constituent assembly, of course, as you all know, is supposed to be representative of the entire nation, and was to decide the constitution of the future Eussia. It was elected in a time of stress. It was elected even at a time when there was great Bolshevik influence. But in spite of that it turned a large majority against the Bolsheviks. When it was finally allowed to meet, about which there was considerable discus- sion, it had the majority against the Bolsheviks, and it lasted two days. On the second day the sailors appeared in the gallery with machine guns and told the deputies to go home, and they went home. I speak from knowledge, having been in the assembly. Maj. Humes. The sailors side with the Bolsheviks, do they? Mr. Huntington. Yes, sir; the sailors were Bolsheviks, and they were very often used by the Bolsheviks because they were better educated than the ordinary soldiers, and they were very fierce at that time. They were amongst some of the hardest of such people that I have ever known. Senator Overman. How are the Cossacks? How are their feel- ings? Mr. Huntington. The Cossacks were the former frontiersmen of Eussia, and they had special charters under old Eussia, and lands would be granted to them, and that has affected somewhat their atti- tude toward Bolshevism, because they did not want to have their lands taken away from them. The Bolsheviks have sometimes made concessions or made it appear that they did not want to take the Cos- sacks' lands ; that is, they were making a special case of them. They did at the time win some of the Cossacks, but the main body of them, so far as we could see, they have never won. There are people in Cossack Eussia, however, who have been in the Bolshevik movement. The sailors have been complained of so much that it may not be amiss to say, in speaking of their ferocity, which is not sentimental or joking but a fact, that I stood one day on the quay, the bank of the river Neva, in the building occupied by the National City Bank, and looked out of the office and had pointed out to me by the manager of the bank a spot on the street in front, which was red — a dried-up pool — and he told me that it was blood, and that he and his assistant had stood in the window of the bank that morning and BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 71 a squad of sailors had marched along the street, which ifuns along the river front, and walking along on the walk had been,' a man in an officer's coat, who was walking along by himself, empty handed, and that before they came opposite to this man one of them raised his musket and shot the officer on the spot, and he was left there, and the march of the men was not even stopped to see whether the job had been done or not. Afterwards he was picked up. Senator Wolcott. He was an officer in the Navy ? Mr. Huntington. No, sir; an army officer. Senator Wolcott. An army officer? Mr. Huntington. Of what grade I do not know. They were not wearing epaulettes then, and you could not tell from the coat; only from the cap you could tell that he was an officer. Maj. Humes. You have cited one instance of the father of a clerk of yours who was arrested and executed. Are you familiar with any other instances of similar conduct on the part of the government authorities ? Mr. Huntington. I am sorry if I have given the impression that I said he was executed. I do not know whether he has yet been executed or not. He was in prison up to the latest advices which we had, up to a month or so ago. Senator Wolcott. I understood you to say that this man told the daughters that he had been killed. Mr. Huntington. They told them that, presumably to terrorize and scare those girls. Senator Wolcott. And the daughters learned afterwards that he had not been killed? Mr. Huntington. So far as we could find out. No one ever got inside to see. They admitted no one. In this case they did not even admit the Ked Cross to see this man, although they said they would. They did admit the Ked Cross to some prisons. People were con- fined in there whom nobody knew about, who people thought had fled to other parts of the country, in Moscow, as was the case with our own associate Mr. Simmons, who was in prison for 8 or 10 days, although he wrote letters and sent telegrams, which went to the com- mission, who refused to forward those letters of a supposedly friendly consulate. Maj. Humes. What tribunal imposes the death penalty and causes the execution? * Mr. Huntington. The so-called extraordinary committee for combatting the counter-revolution. That is headed in Moscow by a man who has become famous as Peters, a Lett from the Baltic Provinces, who speaks English and is an educated man, and is one of the most cruel and fanatic men connected with the entire move- ment. Maj. Humes. What does this committee consist of ? Does it consist of one man or more than one man ? How is it organized ? Mr. Huntington. I can not tell what the system is of selecting the people who sit on it. Maj. "Humes. Do they pretend to try persons who are accused, or is it a summary proceeding? Mr. Huntington. I think there is a pretense of trial, but nobody knows anything about it, and they do not have to show any record or any reason to the -outside world. 72 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Maj. Humes. The trials are not public, then, if there are trials? Mr. Hui^TTNGTON. I do not know of any o'f those trials being pub- lic. Ther^ have been trials before a revolutionary tribunal which have been public, but that was in an earlier day, such as the trial of the woman who was the minister of public welfare under the Keren- sky government. But since the establishment of the extraordinary commission, I do not Imow of any such trial. There are replicas of this extraordinarj' commission in other places. There is one in Petro- grad. They are made up, usually, from amongst the most fanatical and fiercest of, the local terrorists. Maj. Humes. Do you know how many serve on this commission? Mr. Huntington. No, sir ; I can not tell you. Maj. Humes. I think this morning you were just getting ready to take up the economic situation in Russia.. Will you go ahead and state to the committee the economic conditions there ? Mr. Huntington. The situation has two aspects, as it seems to me. It has the moral aspect and the economic aspect. I mean moral in the broad sense, of all morality; not sex morality, of course, which is the frequent narrow use of the word here. The moral aspect has rather been touched upon by the description of the terror — of the actual cases, many of which can be cited. I never have personally had any great interest in telling thrilling stories to make people's nerves tingle. There are .plenty of stories, and you may hear others, and I think the case is sufficiently put by the state- ment of the Bolshevik Government, in which they do not deny the use of terror, but justify it. The moral side is one side. The other side is the economic side. In other words, has the move- ment succeeded in bringing about any kind of an economic prosper- ity ? I do not mean a paradise, or anything like it. To that I can only answer most decidedly no ; that there is a complete chaos in Russia ; that there is as near to anarchy as there could be and anything go on at all ; that the center of the whole thing is really the railroad system, which is conducted out of previous habits of good order, and because there is the need of living by the railroad men themselves, who, I might say, deserve great credit for this, in my opinion. That serves to connect the various parts and keeps, to a certain degree, things going. The railroad transportation is slowly declining, day by day. When we passed out through Siberia and passed back again the side- tracks at the stations were filled with locomo'tives, some of them American, all rusty, with parts missing, with perhaps a connecting rod off, or a throttle taken off, or a cab boarded up, every one of them lacking this or that or the other part. Engines had broken down, and they had taken this or that or the other part off of one of these en- gines to make repairs. The rolling stock wears out day by day, and there is no repair shop, and the repairs can not be executed for lack of material and because the labor conditions are so unfortunate. The production in any factories that have material has dropped off^ very greatly, in enormous percentages, anywhere from 500 to 1,000 per cent. There is lack of discipline in the factories and there is lack of food. Senator Wolcott. What do you mean by 1,000 per cent? Mr. Huntington. I mean 10 times, sir; 10 times 100 per cent. There is lack of food. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 73 Senator Wolcott. Just what do you mean? Mr. Huntington. I mean that a factory, for instance, that might make formerly 10 locomotives a month now makes 1; such as the Kolomensky works. The cotton factories are closed down. There was next to no cotton raised in Turkestan this last year on account of the disturbances. Senator Overman. Heretofore they have been spinning all their own yarn and not importing it. The cotton they use comes from where ? Mr. Huntington. Oh, about one-half of it from outside, from Egypt and from us — it did come — and about one-half from them- selves, as I remember it. They produced a great part, the principal part, of their own needs in cotton goods, and they have some very, very large factories for this purpose, founded by Englishmen. A German began the movement, but brought over English foremen and superintendents, and their successors remain there still, to this day — ■ or did. There is in the factories not only the lack of discipline and chaos in the administration, except where there has been effected a sort of agreement between the men and the foreman-proprietor, who gives his brains to the running of the factory, which has sometimes oc- curred, but there is hunger. A factory inspector of the Young Women's Christian Association, who visited practically every fac- tory in Moscow, and whose report I have read, says that in many cases there was lack of work because there was lack of food, in addi- tion to the other causes. There is no banking, in the accepted sense. It is impossible to transfer money from one town to another to^^n. If there is any pay- ment to be made, it is paid in cash. If you want to make a payment, you send a man, preferably, with a suitcase with the money in it. The banks, formerly private banks, are now called departments 1, 2, 3, and 4. of the People's Bank of the Federated Socialist Republic of the Soviet. So that you have perhaps the Siberian bank of Petrograd being called department No. 1, and the international bank, depart- ment No. 2, etc. They carry on no banking business, ordinarily so- called, except the passing out of paper money which is paid out to factory organizations, those who are still running at all, for the pay- ment of workmen. Senator Overman. Did they abolish liquor while you were there — vodka ? Mr. HuN'i-iNGTON. That was done before I arrived. Senator Overbian. Did they really abolish it? Mr. Huntington. It vvas very efficacious, and for the masses there was no liquor when I arrived in Russia. Tliei'e was liquor for people who could get it by corrupt methods whicli have always prevailed in Russia, ancl have never prevailed there to the extent to which they prevail to-day. When we left Russia, passing out, although we had the vise of the authorities of Moscow, as soon as we got to Petrograd we were held by a commissar, who was unfortunately killed while we were there, and he finally let us go. He said he would not recognize the authority of the men of the foreign office in Moscow. I mention this at this' point to show you that whereas they have a sort of authority, the authority of their so-called government is not very 74 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. firm, and when it comes to issuing a constructive or definite restrain- ing order they can not do it. An order to loot or to take they can get obeyed, but many times they can not get obeyed the other orders they issue. We were held up, although we had our passports in order. When we got to the border we had to pay tribute to get out of the country, and did pay tribute to the Red Guard, who were at the border and who hustled the baggage, and also to the official at the border who conducted it. Senator Overmax. Is the Eussian naturally a cruel man ? Mr. Huntington. Xo, sir; I should say not. He is naturally a kind man, a very easy-going man. Senator Overman. Are they hospitable people? Mr. Huntington. Very, under normal circumstances. Senator Overman. Under present conditions, under this Bolshevik movement, the very contrary is the case ? Mr. Huntington. A peasant, for instance, who has been taught that his landlord is his enemy — although that may not have been the case, because many landowners were kind to the peasants — a work- man who has been taught the creed of Lenine and Trotsky, which is the class warfare; and which says distinctly that your employer is your natural enemy, naturally, when he has been so taught, and he is hungry, will strike the employer, and he may regret it a week after- wards. On the walls of the stairway in the Metropole Hotel in Moscow when I went in there the last time in August with two others, in perfectly good English, undoubtedly written by Mr. Tchitcherin, there was a copy of a poster which they were planning to launch up on the Murman coast, for the Bri^is^i and American soldiers. This piece was well written, and ^ ery logical, and the only trouble was with the first statement. I can not quote it exactly, but it started in this way :" Comrades, workmen of Great Britain and America, wliy do you come to our shores of this workmen's republic? You liavc nothing in common with your employer. He is your enemy. Turn around and go home and fight him, and you will achieve hajppiness." That is the creed, and when it is taught to simple people who are hungry, it produces that effect. The people are, apart from that, very kind, and easily led, easily to be had for any idea. Senator Overman. What proportion of the people are educated? Mr. Huntington. The estimates vary about that. The best esti- mate I have ever seen for the army which I thought was trustworthy was 50 per cent for the army. I have seen others higher, but I caia not, from personal experience and contact with these men, believe them. If we accepted 50 per cent for the army, then you would have to figure that the army is only a portion of the population and does not include the women, and the women have had much less oppor- tunity than the men, and our percentage of literacy in the country would seem to me, even with a very broad definition, certainly to be low; would certainly not be much more than a quarter, on a very broad definition of literacy — I mean, not asking that a man know too much, but that he be able Senator Overman. Do women take part in these mobs, these lynch- ings and murders ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 75 Mr. Huntington. In mobs there have been women present. In many murders, no, sir. I have seen the victims of murders after they were killed, but I have' not been present. As, for instance, one morning in the embassy news was brought of the killing of the liberal minister of finance in the Kerensky government, Mr. Shingaryov, who had been a little doctor in south Russia and had come up to the Duma had learned state finances and had been one of those who fought officials of the old regime in putting their schemes through of getting money for the Czar's favorites. This man was arrested and was lying in the prison of Peter and Paul with another of the Keren- sky ministers, Kokoshkin, who was ill, and they allowed him and another man to go to the hospital of the Liteiny Prospect. Into that hospital one night at 11 o'clock armed men got by the guards and got up to the room of these men and shot them in their beds as they lay there. That story came to the embassy on Sunday morning and was jiot believed, and so I went, at the special request of the ambassador, to the hospital on the Liteiny and personally passed through the crowd and into the morgue and passed along by the marble slabs in the morgue and stopped before the slab on which lay the body of Mr. Shingaryov, and next to him this other man, and, knowing him per- sonally, I readily identified his body and went back and reported. Such things I have no desire, as I say, to tell. I have no desire to tell thrilling stories, but of such incidents I can call to mind a good many. Maj. Humes. Are you familiar with any atrocities of the kind com- mitted against women? Did you come in contact with anything of that kind? Mr. Huntington. No. Personally, the only atrocities that I know of, the only mistreatment that I know of on the violent scale, I know from the town of Irkutsk, from the actions of the guards on entering certain houses there to loot, and who pretty roughly handled the women, but did not kill them. I believe there are undoubtedly such cases, but I, personally, have not seen them. Maj. Humes. Proceed with the economic matters. Mr. Huntington. The keynote is entire absence of production. That is why I am mystified, sometimes, when I read accounts that production is going on well. There must be entire lack of produc- tion, because there is not only lack of discipline but lack of material. The government is founded on demagogy, and therefore has not been able to work constructively. We have tried to work with them con- structively on a number of occasions. We tried, for instance, to feed the city of Moscow from the Volga, and had practically a plan for doing that under the International Red Cross when Trotsky blocked that, because, for some reasons of his own, he feared it would react unfavorably upon his regime. Besides the lack of real administra- tive ability amongst these men, there is also the constant additional difficulty that they are not interested in building, but they are inter- ested primarily in propagating. Propagation of their doctrines is the prime idea. The prime idea is to get these doctrines propagated, to get the social revolution, as they see it, throughout the world, and then do your constructing. Such constructing as they have conducted to-day at home has been only 76 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. such as was forced on them or such as they wanted to do for the effect on the outside world. Now they are constantly trying to evince that their construction is a success. They are not, from a normal man's standpoint, capable of constructive work. What constructive work is done, is done by neutral people whom they employ on occa- sion ; as, for instance, an engineer friend of mine in the ministry of railways, v^'hom they appointed director of transportation. He found it impossible to keep on with them, because when he issued any orders that were not satisfactory to the workmen they were not obeyed. And when he went to the soviet, which guaranteed him aid and protection — even going so far as to say they would shoot people who did not obey, because they were bound to put the country in shape and Mr. Lenine said that production was what was needed — when he went to them they were afraid of the people in his offices, and these people appealed to demagogy and said that they would not stand to have this or that measure put through, and the so\'iets, of course, gave in. Having founded their power on demagogy, they could not do otherwise. They would gladly have made use of us and of other foreigners. The foreigner, as a rule, has had a better chance than a Russian. Among the foreigners theie were clever men and trained. Some of them in Russia are some of the cleverest men in the world. The Bolsheviks made offers of '' cooperation " to the American Embassy, and wanted men for constructive work. This was in December, a month after thej- had been in power, and they would promise any- thing. They wanted to get experts from America. They knew that the people were very badly disciplined, and they thought if we would send special men to help them build up their new socialistic state, they would punish workmen or peasants who would not obey them. They were bound to have discipline and were bound to have the work done. Unfortunately, like all the rest of it, it does not get beyond words and the paper that it is printed on. Senator Wolcott. According to their program, if people do not do like they want, shoot them; if they will not work, shoot them; if they will not work to suit them, shoot them ? Mr. Huntington. Yes; but that is all, of course, because a great good is coming out of all this ; and the fact that a few hundred people are killed, in their minds does not mean anything. Senator Wolcott. Yes; of course, 'the worst tyrants that ever lived always appealed to the ultimate good in their behalf. Maj. Humes. What about the production of raw materials? Mr. Huntington. As to the basic raw materials like coal, for in- stance, European Russia is not well provided with coal, to begin with. Coal has been in the Ukraine, and they have juggled with the transportation and juggled the situation with the Ukraine so that there is none coming from there. The petroleum came from the Caucasus, but they brought about a political situation and an industrial situation in Baku by which no more petroleum is produced, and petroleum no longer comes up the Volga. As for cotton, on account of the conditions in Turkestan, where the social war has been going on, and especially on account of the local religions and tribes there, cotton production has been very low, so that they have not cotton. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 77 Food there is considerable of, in various points. There was food in the south of Russia. There is food in the north of Caucasus. There is food in Siberia. But the political situation which they have brought about and the breakdown of transportation have made it impossible to tap that food ; and more than that, there is food in the hands of peasants, and would be more — that is the chief difficulty — but their treatment of the peasants has made it impossible for them to get any food into the towns. The peasants will not give up the food, in the first place, because no goods are exchanged, nothing but money, and money is valueless. In the second place, they will not give it up at the fixed prices, which bear no relation to the other things which they have to buy. In Siberia, where there was much food, but under the Bolshevik regime I have been in towns where it was very difficult to obtain, and yet close outside of those towns there was plenty of food, but the peasants did not bring it in. We had meat brought to our house in Irkutsk by a peasant girl who had raised the calf and killed it and brought it in to sell. She was stopped by a Eed Guard, who took the calf away from her. She said that she was a peasant girl, and she said, " I am going to take this calf in and sell this meat." She said, " I am a poor girl, and I am going to sell this meat." The Red Guard said, " You will have to sell it to me and you will have to sell it at the normal, set price for meat." She refused to do this, and the result was a battle of words between her brother, who happened to be fairly good sized, and herself, and this man ; so that finally the calf, in that instance, was given up, and we ate it. Maj. Humes. Go on with any other phase of the economic situa- tion that you have in mind and are familiar with. Mr. HuNTiKGTON. Evidently here it is very difficult for people living under normal circumstances, as we do, to make any picture of life there. In the towns like Petrograd and Moscow, as soon as you come into them you immediately mark a strangeness. In Petrograd, in September, the town in the first place was very empty. As many people had gone away as could. The streets, which are very wide and fine, were almost empty. A sorrowful aspect over the whole place was very terrible. When I arrived there I fortunately had food with me, as every one else had. Everyone brought his food. An old servant of the house where I lived offered to share her one- eighth of a pound of black bread with me, so that I had a chance to see how big that portion was. As far as the theaters are concerned, it is often urged that the theater is an amusement place, and as the theaters are running, life there must be normal. I can only say that some of my principal lessons in the Russian language were taken from one of the best actors there — one of the second-rate actors, I mean, who never played the first role — of the Alexander Theater of Petrograd, and that he was heart-broken over the whole matter, and recounted to me the reaction of all his actor friends to it, and I was able in the theater afterwards to see the reaction on the performance of these people. These theaters, like the Art Theater of Moscow, which is perhaps the cleverest in the ■World, seen in 1918 and seen in 1917 were two different pictures ; and doubtless the people act in order to get bread, but there is no heart in it. 78 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Overman. What is the normal size of Petrograd? Mr. Huntington. Petrograd and Moscow are nearly the same size — ^2,000,000 apiece. Population in war time swelled by the influx of refugees. Senator Overman. ^^Tien you left there, how many people were left in Petrograd? Mr. Huntington. I do not know. I have seen and heard esti- mates, but I have no waA' to tell except by the general aspect of the lown and the lack of people on the streets; no more movement, no life, no " go " about it ; the shops, many of them, boarded up. Senator Overman. Did the people leave the city on account of the terror ? Mr. Huntington. Terror and lack of food. Senator Overman. It is so in Moscow also? Mr. Huntington. Moscow was a little better placed, because Mos- cow is nearer the center of the country and it has more railroad lines running into it, and is nearer the food-producing area. When I speak of the better class of people I do not refer to the old court, necessarily, at all. The favorite comparison is made now as if Russia was only in two parts, the old court and the new Bolsheviks, and as if the Bolsheviks had made the Russian revolution, which they did not; but it was made by those people, liberal people of all kinds, people who have been fighters against the old regime in bygone days. Senator Overman. Where did those better people go; where did the merchants and bankers and men of substance go when they left the city ? Mr. Huntington. Most of them ran to Scandinavia. Some of them went to the Ukraine, some of them into the Baltic Provinces, which at that time were better places. Some ran to Finland, but that got difficult because the Finns did not want more people over there. They had too little food themselves. The better class, the richer class, including some of the wealthiest class, whom Lenine thought he had brolien, are to-day to be found in Copenhagen, London, Paris, living along quite all right, while some of the finest of the old Liberals and strugglers are living in Moscow in apartments, like some friends of mine there, not knowing when they will have to get out of the apartment; having people thrust on them ; being peremptorily told that this and that man will come and live with them to-morrow ; and on their sayin'g, " We have not any room ; every room is occupied," being told, " Well, you will have to double up." They may never have seen this man, but that makes no difference. One has no personal liberty. And then, as they have grown more desperate the terror has increased, and there comes the constant risk that one's life may be taken. Maj. Humes. Have you any idea how many of those people came to this country ? Mr. Huntington. I think comparatively few came to this coun- try, because it was very difficult to get passports, very difficult to get out — to get out through the west gate. To get out through the gate running from Petrograd to Stockholm you had to get a passport from the Swedes before you could leave Russia, because Sweden had a rationing of food and did not want to take refugees, and if you could get your passport frotn America, then you took it to the BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 79 Swedish and Norwegian authorities, and then with those and a Bolshevik passport you could presumably leave and get away if you could pass the German blockade on the Baltic Sea on the way across. It is rather interesting, since the international point of view of these people does not seem to be comprehended here, and the fact that they worked for an international movement, to recount the story of how Mr. Eansome went to Stockholm. He is an English writer of very considerable brilliance and he was in very close relation with the Bolshevik government. I hav€ not seen him doing so, but some< of our Americans reported to me seeing him in the Bolshevik foreign office chatting and shaking hands with the German representatives. That, of course, was perfectly in line with his creed, which he never denied, so far as I know, of being an internationalist and not recog- nizing the German as his enemy. He came to the Swedish consul general one day in Moscow and asked the consul general for a passport — to vise his Bolshevik pass- port; not his usual passport, but his Bolshevik courier's passport; that is, the passport of a courier carrying documents, which covers the courier and the documents in a sealed bag, which he carries. He did not show his British passport. He had a Bolshevik passport. He asked for a vise on this. The Swedish consul general looked at him and said, " Why, you are an Englishman." He said, " Yes." He said, "There is no use my viseing your passport. You will get on that boat and they (the Germans) will put you off at Helsingfors," which was the prominent point where their boats stopped. " They will take you off the boat there." He said, " No ; they will not." The consul general said, " I am not going to make a fool of myself and vise your passport." Kansome came again and was refused in the same way. The consul general said there was no use to talk about it. He said, " You will be arrested. I do not care to be foolish about it." Finally he came a third time, and he had with him Mr. Karl Radek, who was the representative of the Bolshevik foreign commissariat in charge of western European affairs, whose name has prominently figured in the Bolshevik group in Germany recently as directing their operations or advising with them. Mr. Radek told the Swedish consul general that they wanted Mr. Eansome's passport vised. He was told by the consul general, " It is useless for me to do that. The Germans will take him off, with a passport vised. They know he is an Englishman." Mr. Radek said, "You leave that to us. Mr. Ransome is going out to the outside, to tell the truth about our work." This is rather interesting, at a time, of course, when no messages for any of the allied countries could pass out, nor could the newspaper correspondents pass out except at great risk, through underground channels; yet to tell the truth about their movement Mr. Ransome was being sent by the Bolsheviki, and on his voyage to Sweden guaranteed against capture by the Germans, to do this work. Senator Wolcott. As a sequel to that, did Mr. Ransome — I do not know anything about the man, but did he get out with the rest of the world ? Mr. Huntington. Yes; he got out into Stockholm. I do not know where he is now. In Stockholm, I suppose he is. 80 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Wolcott. Do you kno\\- whether he is writing any arti- cles for the papers for publication? Mr. Huntington. Yes ; I think so. Senator Wolcott. Any that are being published in this country? Mr. Huntington. Yes; he is a very interesting writer. Senator Wolcott. From what you say, we are entitled to say that anything Mr. Ransonie puts out in this country ovqv his name is the expression of an agent of this Bolshevik bunch of people in -Russia? Mr. Huntington. It is certainly- the expression of a man whom they regard as a good propagandist, or interpreter of their spirit and work; yes. Senator Wolcott. Have you seen any of his articles in this country ? Mr. Huntington. No, sir ; I have not. Senator Overman. Have you observed in this country, since your return, any Bolshevik jDropaganda going on — any appearance of it in this country? Mr. Huntington. I have been here a short time, and I have made very little study of the matter up to this time, since I have been mostly engaged with the organization of my own work, v.-hich is Russian-American trade relations, preparing for the future. It seems to me, though, that this is hot a case for fine-drawn distinc- tions. If it be urged that the Bolshevik Government is honest and fair and true, if it be urged by speakers here that it be recognized and dealt with, when you had read to you this morn- ing that its object is to upset every government in the world — to urge people to have such friendly relations with it is tantamount to urging them to have relations with an agency which contemplates their ultimate destruction. Unless it "has repealed and taken back these principles which it has, all along, been enunciating (of which I do not know), by actual design or favorable consideration and the condoning of the terror it seems to me one makes it easier for these same people to then spread the doctrines which they preach, and which there is no hypocrisy about, it being a matter of public record in our country and other countries. Senator Overman. Did you notice, when you were over there, any effort to make propaganda of these and other doctrines in other countries ? Mr. Huntington. Constantly. That is the chief thing they have tried to do — the chief thing they have done up to this time. Senator Wolcott. Are you going to some other subject now, Major? Maj. Humes. I was going to take that right up. Are you familiar with any particular instances where the agencies of the Bolsheviki regime went into neutral countries for the purpose of carrying their propaganda, financed from Russia ? Mr. Huntington. Wlien I was in Sweden in September, it was brought to my attention by a Socialist friend, who arrived on a boat from Petrograd, that the former commissar of finance, Mr. Gukovsky, had come on that boat with a young lady, and Mr. Gukovsky had 18 trunks and the young lady was reported to have had three, fl.nd the chief contents of the trunks, or one of the chief articles BOLSPIEVIK PROPAGANDA. 81 contained in the trunks, was said to be upward of 60,000,000 rubles of old currency, or at least currency printed on the dies of the old regime — the fine old bills. Those bills were worth in Stockholm at that time, where there was a considerable market, about 52/100 of a Swedish crown, depending upon the market, whereas the new so- called Kerensky money, printed from the new designs, was only 41/100 of a crown. The small shin plaster " kerenki," in denomina- tions of 20 and 40 rubles, brought about 30/100 of a Swedish crown. Maj. Humes. What is the money of the Bolsheviki regime worth, then? Mr. Huntington. At that rate, that quantity of money would rep- resent something like 30,000,000 Swedish crowns, or by the exchange of that day, about 10,000,000 American dollars, for propaganda pur- poses. Senator Overman. For Bolshevik propaganda^ Mr. Huntington. For propaganda purposes. For propaganda purposes in Sweden they had a legation. I did not go into it, but of course many people have been in it. They had there a score of people. In Copenhagen they had another such legation. In Bergen they had their agent ; but chiefly in Copenhagen and Stockholm they had large legations that were steadily at work all' the time putting out propaganda into the Swedish and Danish nations, with the idea of catching the workmen in those countries. Senator Overman. Do you know of any effort in this country? Mr. Huntington. I have made very little study of it, sir; but there ure appearing lately, apparently in the last few days, journals which I have seen, which certainly advocate a very friendly attitude toward the Bolshevik, in which certiiiu articles, written by them, appeared. As, for instance, a journal called " The Liberator," in which an ar- ticle by Mr. Lenine appeared ; and others like that, advocating their system, have appeared. Senator Overman. It seems from what you say that they have a large fund outside of Russia for this propaganda work in order to overturn all the governments of the world. Mr. Huntington. That is my understanding. Senator Overman. Do you think they go into England and Ger many also, with their propaganda? Mr. Huntington. I know that they have been in Germany, work ing as hard as they can. In England they are working, yes, too. Senator Overman. And in France? Mr. Huntington. Yes ; oh, yes. Senator Wolcott. Coming back to this man Ransome — what is his full name? Mr. Huntington. I think his first name is Arthur. I do not know any other name. Senator Wolcott. It runs in my mind, in a rather hazy way, that I have seen some articles in newspapers in this country by that man. Mr. Huntington. He wrote for the New York Times, for a serv- ice in which they were partakers, and for a long time, I was told by one of their editors, they printed his articles because they thought they were interesting and because it gave the other side of the story. They said they used to print them and put a headline over them 85723—19 6 82 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. explaining who he was. I have never seen that. I was not here at that period. Senator Wolcott. He came out of Russia when ? Mr. Huntington. I could get the exact date, perhaps, out of a diary or a notebook. I should think it was in July. Senator Wolcott. In 1918? Mr. Huntington. Yes; maybe in August. Senator Wolcott. Apparently the Russian Bolshevik official who induced the Swedish consul to vise his passport had some connection with the German authorities which wag of such nature that this man Ransome would be allowed to go on to his destination, showing that there was some connection between the Bolsheviks and some- l30dy in Germany. Were the Spartacans at that particular time in the ascendancy in Germany? Mr. Huntington. No; the change in Germany had not taken place. Their relations were founded upon a treaty of peace and comity. Senator Wolcott. Oh, yes; that was in July, 1918. Of course, that was before the armistice? Mr. Huntington. Yes. That treaty was with the Imperial Ger- man Government. Senator Wolcott. The Kaiser was still on the throne ? Mr. Huntington. Yes. Senator Overman. They carried the red flag. That is what it means, " the Reds "? Is that what these Bolsheviks carry? Mr. Huntington. The flag is, of course, simply of the socialist revolution. Senator Overman. It is simply revolutionary ? Mr. Huntington. Yes. Senator 0^^;EMAN. Do the socialists carry it. also? Mr. Huntington. Yes. Senator Overman. And do the I. W. W. carry it, also? Mr. Huntington. Yes. Senator Overman. The I. W. W. have a red flag, the Bolsheviks have a red flag, and the socialists have a red flag. What does that all mean — the red flag? Is it just an emblem of revolution? Mr. Huntington. It means not always the same thing. Senator Overman. On the railroads something like that means danger ahead. On automobiles, in the rear, it means danger. Mr. Huntington. In the case of the Bolsheviks it means interna- tionalism without regarding nationalit}'^, and the spirit of the social revolution throughout the world. Senator Overman. What does it mean with the socialists? Mr. Huntington. In the case of the socialists, in the case of the honest socialists, as far as I understand it — of course I am defining it as an outsider — it means a symbol of the emancipation of society which they hope to achieve by honest methods. Senator Overman. What does it mean in the I. W. W. ? Mr. Huntington. I do not know about the I. W. W. I have not been in contact with that organization. Senator Overman. Is it not very significant that all these asso- ciations have the same flag, the red flag? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 83'' Mr. Htjntington. That has occurred to me, but I have not fol- lowed it. Senator Overman. That thej' all should adopt one flag, is not that significant ? Maj. Humes. At the time of the Ransome incident, is it not true' that the Bolshevik government had an ambassador in Germany? Mr. Huntington. Oh, yes; they had Maj. Humes. That was after the treaty of peace, and they were officially represented in Germany ? Mr. Huntington. Yes; they were in friendly relations with Ger- many. There was no reason in the world why they should not have relations with Germany after the signing of the treaty of peace with them. Maj. Humes. So that they were at that time on friendly terms with the German Government and in touch with the German Gov- ernment through their diplomatic service? Mr. Huntington. Oh, yes. Senator Overman. Do you know what sort of flag the nihilists have ? Is that a red flag also ? Mr. Huntington. I do not know. Senator Overman. And how about the anarchists? Mr. Huntington. The anarchists have a black flag. Senator Wolcott. Do you know whether or not there are any speakers or writers in this country who are acting in the interests of • this world-wide Bolshevik movement ? Mr. Huntington. I do not know. I only can tell anything at all by reading the speeches and contributions of people in the press, and where they appear to be not only friendly to the Bolshevik govern- ment, but to desire that it be aided and helped ; and either they do this in ignorance or they do it hoping that the ideals of the so-called soviet government will be realized in this country or other coun- tries where they may be working. Senator Wolcott. At all events, you do see in the public prints in this country, at one time and another, things that are entirely in harmony with these Bolshevik expressions? Mr. Huntington. Yes. Senator Overman. Did you go to this meeting at Poll's Theater that people have been talking about ? Mr. Huntington. Yes. Senator Overman. Was that speaking there in line with that? Mr. Huntington. What was done there was very definite. There were two speakers, a gentleman and a lady, who each one in his own way handled this question, and who spoke from experience in Russia, and who praised the movement there, and who justified its activities there. Senator Overman. Were they American citizens? Mr. Huntington. I think so. Senator Wolcott. They had just come from Russia? Mr. Huntington.- I do not know how lately. I do not know the exact date of their arrival here ; within a few months, I think. Senator Wolcott. My recollection is that that meeting was a n)e«i-.iin« that was called for the nurnose of telling the people herp> 84 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. in the Capital the truth about Russia. Was not that the express purpose of the meeting? Mr. Huntington. That was the caption in the newspaper adver- tisement. Senator Wolcott. They used the same phrases exactly as were employed by the Bolshevik man over in Russia when he was inducing the Swedish consul to vise the passport oi Mr. Ransome, who, ac- cording to the Bolsheviki, was going out into the world to tell the truth about Russia? Mr. Htjntington. Yes. Maj. Humes. Were you present at that meeting? Mr. Huntington. In Washington, here? Maj. Humes. Yes. Mr. Huntington. Yes, sir. Maj. Humes. What do you say as to the statements made by those persons being the truth about Russia ? Mr. Huntington. Well, I took careful note of many of them, and it seemed to me that, in the light of my own knowledge, they were not true, at all. What this was founded on, whether on poor obser- vation or ignorance of the subject or willful misrepresentation, I do not know; but I do not believe that the audience heard the truth about Russia. Maj. Humes. Do you or do you not know, as a fact, that the man who spoke on that occasion came to this country purporting to offi- cially represent the Bolshevist government? Mr. Huntington. I do not know. I have heard that, but I do not kno^v of my own knowledge. Maj. PIuMES. Do you know from your own knowledge of an at- tempt made, while you were in Russia, by an emissary of the Bol- shevist government to present credentials of the Bolshevist gov- ernment in this country? Mr. Huntington. I know of it simply because of having been em- ployed in the American Embassy, that there was a request made by the Bolshevik commisar of foreign affairs, the date of which I do not recall, since it was not my business — it was told to me as a matter of interest only by another whose business it was — to accredit Mr. John Reed as consul general of the people's soviet government in New York. Senator Overman. Is he the man that is interned now? Maj. Humes. No; he has been indicted. Senator Wolcott. Was it his wife that was at this meeting, speak- ing? Mr. Huntington. I understand so. Senator Wolcott. Did she call herself Mrs. Reed ? Maj. Humes. No; Louise Bryant was the name she went by here. Senator Wolcott. She is the wife, then, of an aspirant to the office of consul of the Bolsheviki? Senator Overman. Did she speak here ? Maj. Humes. Yes, sir; under the name of Louise Bryant. Senator Overman. I noticed a communication in that document you had, from John Reed ? Maj. HmsiEs. Yes. Senator Overman. And there is one from Lenine. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 85 Maj. Humes. Can you point out some of the erroneous statements that were made by these two speakers at the meeting in question ? I do not want to go over their addresses in detail, but just as you think of them, just the high spots. Mr. Huntington. If that would be of value, I have notes, but not with me, on that. I could take those up if it should be thought de- sirable to do so. Maj. Humes. I do not know whether the committee would care to take that up in detail or not. Mr. Huntington. I think it is rather long. Senator Overman. I think he has told generally about it — that it is the Bolshevik doctrine that they are preaching there, and it is not true. Maj. Humes. You stated a few moments ago that the Bolslieviki were represented in Germany by an ambassador. What other coun- try received ambassadors or ministers? Mr. Huntington. They had relations with the neutral Scandi- navian countries, Sweden, Norway, and Denmark, and they also had relations with Holland and Switzerland. Holland's minister has left, and the Swedish minister and all the consular officers have been recalled, and I understand the Norwegian also, and it has since ap- peared in the papers that the Danish minister appeared in Paris at the peace confei-ence. The papers also stated that the Swiss minister had some -difficulty in getting away. I can not say whether he has finally left or not. Senator Oveeman. Do you know whether this Bolshe^-ik move- ment is in Switzerland, Norway, and Denmark? Mr. Huntington. They are all free countries, all democratic countries, and from time immemorial Switzerland has been a country in Europe where people might say what they liked, and take refuge, and these people have enjoyed Switzerland's hospitality like many others. Senator Oveeman. Is there an eifort to infuse that doctrine among the Swiss? Mr. Huntington. Most decidedly. Maj. Humes. You said something with reference to graft in Russia. What do you know about the question of graft in the pres- ent regime? Mr. Huntington. Well, I can only repeat the words of a business man who was trying to do business there. When I asked him that question, he stated he had never found it so expensive to do business as now. As a matter of fact, the places in the ministi'y, or so-called commissariats, are filled by chance men, and these men are changed often, and lots of times these men are simply men who have never had much opportunity in, life, and therefore perhaps have not built up strong characters or principles, and also because they think they may need the money. As a matter due to the lack of morality, and an anarchical condition, the use of money for such purposes is very fre- quent and usual. Senator Oveeman. Was not that so under the old regime, that there was bribery and corruption? Mr. Huntington. There always has been in Eussia, which par- takes of the Orient in that way, but never to such an extent as now. 86 BOLSHEVIK PE0PAGA2!TDA. Senator Over Ji an. If you wanted things done you would have to grease them I Jlr. HuNTiNGTox. Yes: but strangely enough under the monarchy the bargain was observed, and if the grease had been given, as a rule it was thorouglily standardized — if you will overlook my apparent cynicism — and the promise that was given was kept, while at present people have no hesitancy in accepting money and turning on the giver, which seems to be a little worse than the other, although neither is defensible. The difficulty under the old regime was the oriental character of the people, and was in numy places also due to the low pay of the government officials, who came to regard these fees which they received as a part of their income. An official in the ministry of commerce, we will say, through wlwse hands certain applications and papers p)assed, and who by signing a paper quickly could forward it and get a matter through, instead of the slow prog- ress it usually made, would accept a fee for it, salving his con- science by saying that he ought to receive it from the government, and since they did not pay it he Avould take it from these men. Senator Wolcott. Coming back to this Washington meeting for a moment. You say 3'ou were down there and took notes. While there was praise of the soviet government of Russia, was there or not any criticism or denunciation of our form of government in this country ? Mr. HrXTiN(!TOX. I was at the meeting from -1 o'clock until about half past 4. That was the period of the two speeches and of the introductions. There was no more criticism of our form of govern- ment in that time, as far as the introducer or the speakers were concerned, than would be usual in a political discussion on their part. During the period I was there the criticism was only by implication; that is, thev defended and advocated and urged aid for and consideration for, and justified, a government whose avowed purpose is to' overthrow ours. They did not, during the time I was there, say anything directly about the overthrow of the Gov- ernment. Senator Wolcoit. Doctor, do you know anything of an incident or a rather gruesome thing that occurred in Eussia that had to do with throwing some dukes or grand dukes down into a well and firiiio- band grenades in on them? ]^.Ir. Hux-JiNGTOx. There was a thing of that kind reported in the Ural JMountains, in the cit^' of Ekaterinburg, which is a sort of capital in the I^rals, a city of some size, and a mining center. It was in this city that the Czar and his family were confined. Also grand dukes had been confined there, and .some others at times. The letter, Avritten in November by an American business man, who was there, states it as a fact that this was done, and that the bodies were re- 102 BOLSHEVIK ±-±iu±-AViAiNUA. whether or not they are true? In other words, is there a tendency or an elioit on the part of boino agitatoro to inisrcprcsoiit the veal facts, in tlioir literature or in their publications I Mr. Harpek. It seoius to me that a general atatenient without luiy background, ■without any filling in of detailed facts, that the Bol-lu>- vik experinieiit hay lx»en a successful experiment, or if not entirely successful, is a hopeful experiment, is not a true picture of what has been going on in Russia since the Bolsheviki came into power. Ore gets that very general statement that it is a hopeful experiment, and one gets the more specific statement that it has been a suc.essful ex-- periment. developing that general idea by describing the election of the Soviets, and not paying any attention to the statements that have been published by Americans who have come out, by neutrals who have come out, by Eussians, as to the methods used by the Bolsheviki to control the elections. Senator "Wolcott. And you say ynu do not agree with those state- ments ? Mr. Haeper. I do not agree with those statements on that basis. In other words, I accept the other set of statements. It has been very difficult to decide between those two sets of statements. As I have said, it was my special study, and I have devoted my time and what intelligence I have to the verification back and forth. I give it as my personal opinion, based on a careful study, that the set of statements with regard to the Bolshevik experiment, the set of st;ite- ments that describe it as having cost the country enormously in values, in lives, the set of statements that state that at last the workmen and peasants have become disillusioned, and are opposed to the soviet regime and the Bolshevik regime, that set of facts is the one that I have accepted. Of course, we have had misstatements back and forth. We have had a good niany exaggerated statements from Russia, ' arried on our cables to the newspapers. We have had exag- gerated statements or misstatements from both sides — from both groups. Senator OxT.nMx^. You do not think we are getting the truth abou', Russia? ilr. Harper. It is difficult, of course, in view of the chaos, to get jdl the facts. Senator Wolcott. Is there not one fact upon which they all agree, that the Bolshevists have seized and confiscated property of indi- viduals and have taken it over from the people, and run on a career of theft and robbery ? Mr. Harper. According to our conceptions here in this country, on that point there is no difference of opinion. There is difference of opinion as to the extent of the terrorism. Senator Wolcott. Then, can there be any doubt in your mind that that thing is an abominable failure, that it is a program of con- fiscation. Mr. Harper. When I speak of it as a failure, I qualify it to this extent : That it has proven itself a failure for the Russian workmen and the Russian peasants. Senator Overman. You do not agree with the teachings of Lenine and Trotsky, do you? Mr. Haeper. I do not. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 103 Maj. Humes. Professor, you are familiar somewhat with political parties and groups in Russia. What proportion of the Eussian socialist movement do the Bolshevists represent? Mr. Haepee. In June of 1917, in the first all-Russian congress, the Bolsheviki were polling about 20 to 25 per cent, on certain occasions ; on other occasions, less. That was in the all-Russian congress of Soviets. In the Petrograd soviet, which was composed of the work- riien of Petrograd and the garrison soldiers of Petrograd, the Bol- sheviki had a majority. In Moscow the Bolsheviki were strong — in the Moscow soviet. We have, then, certain votes on which to base an estimate of the strength of the Bolsheviki as a party. The elec- tion returns of the constituent assembly as a result of the elections held during November, when the Bolsheviki were in power, would indicate that the majority were against the Bolsheviki. Maj. Humes. Now, Professor, we hear of persons who are advo- cating Bolshevism in this country, or the recognition of the Bolshe- vist government in this country, insisting upon even a greater free- dom of press and freedom of speech in this country than we now have. Do they, in their form of government, recognize the right of freedom of the press and freedom of speech, or is it their policy to deprive individuals of any of their rights that may be used to inter- fere with their particular form of government and its activities ? Mr. Haepee. They definitely state in their constitution that during the period of transition they must protect themselves against those whom they have thrown out, and that they can not allow the use of freedom of the press. During the first weeks after the Bolshevik coup d'etat a great many bourgeois papers continued to come out — ^a great many non-Bolshevik and nonsocialist papers continued to come out. I was able to get hold of many copies of papers published in Novem- ber, 1917, in which the non-Bolshevist socialists attacked the Bol- sheviki and spoke of them as adventurers and as traitors, so that during these first months the non-Bolsheviki could express their opinion. But my interpretation of that fact was that during those first months the Bolsheviki did not have time or did not feel secure enough to suppress freedom of the press. But now in no case, accord- ing to the constitution, do they allow the publication of non-Bolshevik articles. Senator Ovekmax. You think they were justified in that, do you not? Mr. Haepee. No, sir. Maj. Humes. Then they are advocating free speech and free press in this country, but are not permitting it in their own country. That is the first proposition that we can accept, is it not ? Mr. Haepee. They complain that they are not getting an oppor- tunity to present the facts of the situation to the American people. _ Senator Wolcott. They complain more than that. I read an arti- cle in one of the Washington papers the other night, in which a man was complaining that the criticism of this meeting that was held in Poll's Theater Sunday night, I believe a week ago, was_a suppres- sion of free speech ; that the very fact that they were criticized for expressing their views constituted a .suppression of their constitu- tional right. Mr. Haeper. I do not follow the reasoning. 104 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. Senator Wolcott. I do not follow the reasoning, either. I think it is nonsense. I am telling you what they claim. They claim more than you stated a moment ago. If there is anybody on earth who ought to stand abuse and criticism, it is that crowd. Mr. Harper. The complaint that I have read is, first that the capi- talistic press does not publish certain facts, certain statements in regard to what is going on in Eussia, that come into their hands, and that they publish without proper discrimination all sorts of reports coming from all sorts of sources which are gross exaggerations, as proven by later developments. I think perhaps that there is no question that we have had in the American press a good many misstatements with regard to Russia. Just for an illustration that came to my attention, it was called to my attention recently that a well known Eussian revolutionary leader, Catherine Breshkovskaya, called, popularly, " The Grand- mother of the Eussian Eevolution," was reported either killed or as having died in prison several times in the course of the last year. The other side also reported with regard to Catherine Breshkovskaya, insisting that we were not getting the truth about Eussia. They insisted that the press was simply sending these reports that Cath- erine Breshkovskaya had been killed, in order to stir up antagonism to the Bolsheviki. In an article written in a publication called " One Year of Eevolution," printed in November, 1918, this other state- ment is given, what the writer, Mr. Nuorteva, claims is the true state- ment with regard to Catherine Breshkovskaya. [Eeading:] Catherine Breshkovskaya has never been imprisoned by the Soviets. When she died, — not of privation, but of old age, — the soviet government, although she was its opponent on many questions of tactics and principles, gave her a public funeral and hundreds of thousands of Moscow workers, members of the soviet, turned out to pay their respects to " The Grandmother of the Russian Revolution." Senator Wolcott. Neither one of them is right. Mr. Harper. I believe Catherine Breshkovskaya is coming to Washington. I had several hours' talk with her in Chicago the other day. Senator "Wolcott. One said that she was killed, and the other said she was given a respectable funeral by the Soviets, and both are wrong. Mr. Harper. But on the question of the use of terrorism, and on the question of the confiscation of the property of the bourgeois, there is no difference. There is no difference of opinion between these two groups. Senator Wolcott. No ; that is fundamental, of course. Mr. Harper. One group will say that it is not against the taldng over of property, and admit that there was a certain amount of ir- regularity which we can characterize as looting ; and the other set of statements, in covering this question of the confiscation of property, says that it was irregular, mere seizure, mere legalized loot, and that in many cases it was the bribe tliat gained temporary support for the bolshevist program by workmen groups, peasant groups, and some soldier groups. Maj. Humes. To summarize for a minute, professor, as I under- stand it from your outline of the present regime, we can gather this conclusion : That in order to maintain themselves they are conducting BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 105 a reign of terrorism, keeping people in fear ; secondly, they are de- priving people of the right of the press and the right of free speech, and preventing them from getting information as to what is ac- tually going on; thirdly, they provide for a compulsory military service for their purposes ; they provide force for the disarmament of everyone that is not in sympathy with their cause and does not belong to the particular element with which they are affiliated, and of which they are a part. Then to establish their control further in elections, they have limited the right of suffrage as to the persons who have been grouped, so as to prevent their overthrow in a popular election, by way of disfranchisment, have they not? Mr. Harper. Up to the last statement, the last point, every point is supported by their own decrees or by provisions in their constitution. Maj. Htjmes. The last statement is that they have, in order to make it possible to control elections, disfranchised a considerable element of the population. Mr. Harper. By law they have disfranchised, of course, the bour- geoisie. Maj . Humes. Is that all ? I call your attention to this provision of their constitution; if this is not disfranchisement I would like to know what it is : " The following persons, even if they should belong to any of the above-men- tioned categories, may neither elect nor be elected : " a. Persons using hired labor for the sake of profit." That would include anyone that had anyone in their employ for the purpose of conducting a business, as a merchant who had a clerk in his employ. Mr. Harper. He would be a bourgeois. Maj. Humes. And the person who had a domestic would also be deprived of the right of suffrage under that provision. Mr. Harper. He is getting profit from the work of that individual. Maj. Humes. Wherever help is necessary to conduct a business, it contributes to the profit, does it not ? And those people are Mr. Harper. Those would be the bourgeois classes. Maj. Humes (reading) : " Persons living on unearned increments such as : interest on capital, income from industrial enterprises and property." Now, everyone that has an unearned income is disfranchised? Mr. Harper. Yes ; that is what they call the bourgeois class. Maj. Humes (reading) : "Private traders, trading and commercial agents;" Whom does that include? That would include all persons engaged in any undertakings as the representatives of individual concerns, would it not? The salesmen class would be included in that, would they not ? Mr. Harper. Yes. Maj. Humes. Would not merchants be included? Mr. Harper. Certainly. Maj. Humes. All merchants are traders? Mr. Harper. That is directed against them. Maj. Humes (reading) : " Monks and ecclesiastical servants of churches and religious euUs." 106 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ^Ir. Hakpee. Yes; it is directed against them. Maj. Humes. Well, then, the disfranchised include that element of the population. It also includes the disfranchisement of clergy- men and persons in the service of the church, does it not? Mr. Harper. Yes. Maj. HtJMES. It includes clei'gymen. Why? Mr. Harper. I do not know just why they do. Maj. Humes. They would not be comprised in the term "ser- vants ■" ? Mr. Hari^er. I have never seen any of their statements with regard to the clergy except that clause Avhich you have read, in the accounts with regard to Russia, and I do not know what reasons they give for that. Maj. HuJiES. I do not care about the reasons. We are talking about the application of this thing and just what they are doing. That includes the clergymen and the priests in the service of the church. That would include even the janitor, under that class that the constitution here disfranchises, would it not? We have all that class eliminated from the Government? Mr. Harper. As to the question of the janitor, if the house has been taken over by the State, or by the local soviet, then the janitor be- comes an employee of the Slate. Maj. HuJiEs. We will disregard that. Senator Wolcott. Let the janitor vote. jMaj. Humes. Yes; we will let him vote. Senator Overman. He is about the only man that can vote, so far. Maj. HuTNiES (reading) : " Employee.'! and agents of the former police, of the special corps of gen- darmes and of branches of secret police departments, and also members of the former reigning houst^ of Kussia." Of course that relates to those that were connected with the mo- narchical form of government^ Mr. Harper. It says " members of the secret police and of the ruling house." That would not exclude necessarily, on that ground, the landlord. Maj. Humes. But as the landlord was receiving an income from property, that would exclude him. Then, Mr. Harper, it is a fact, is it not, that under the Soviet Eepublic, instead of giving universal suffrage as is proclaimed from the platform by many advocates of bolshevism, and b_v many newspapers that are supporting bol- shevism, instead of creating uniA'ersal suffrage, instead of according universal suffrage to persons over 18 years of age, men and women alike, a very large percentage of the population is disfranchised, is it not? Mr. Harper. They do not, in the first place Maj. Humes. Just answer the question. Mr. Harper. A very large percentage. Maj. Humes. Now, what percentage? Mr. Harper. I should say that theoretically, according to this law Maj. Humes. It is not theoretical, it is practical. It is the consti- tution. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 107 Mr. Harper. That would exclude at least 10 per cent. It would not exclude — the difficulty in answering that question is because of the status ol' the peasants after this nationalization of the land. If a peasant, as was said this morning, had bought and owned land Maj. Humes. How many peasants can operate any quantity of land without having hired help ? Mr. Harper. Very few. , Maj. Humes. Then if they have hired help they are excluded because of that fact, so that would exclude all the peasants that had any considerable amount of land under cultivation. Mr. Harper. That would exclude at least 10 per cent of the pop- ulation, but it would not exclude more than 20 per cent of the popu- lation. That is to say, after this exclusion, 80 per cent of the popula- tion would have the right to vote. Senator Overman. What class would be allowed to vote? Mr. Harper. The peasants, the workmen, and those of the edu- cated class who were not tillers of the soil or workmen in the fac- tories but who had thrown in their lot with the workmen and the peasants. Maj. Humes. But how could a man in that class live unless he had some income from interests or investments, or something of that Mnd? Senator M^olcott. As soon as he gets in that class he is disfran^ chisecl. In other words, is a man disfranchised who accumulates enough property to get an education for himself: is he at once dis- franchised by virtue of the other clauses of the constitution? Mr. Harper. Of course, they have contended Senator Wolcott. Is not that the practical application of it ? Mr. Harper. They contend that as thej^ work out the system- Senator Wolcott. I am not asking what they contend. I am ask- ing what the facts are. Mr. Harper. They have given up their property and have become -\\ orkers, and are therefore eligible to vote and eligible to election. Senator Overman. It is a pretty good constitution, you think, do you not? Mr. Harper. No. Senator Wolcott. Now that industries are paralyzed, where are those people working? There is no work, and where are they work- ing? Mr. Harper. That question I have often asked myself and have put to a great many men with whom I have talked. How does the country go on ? You know that the industries are not working, that the means of transportation are breaking clown. The answer was that there are accumulated goods, shelter and food on which the industrial and urban populations still manage to exist. The peasants have sufficient food of certain kinds. The peasants before the indus- trial changes in Russia often supplied many of their needs, and manu- factured articles through their household industries, and those in- dustries are being developed so that the peasant does manage some way or another to get enough cloth, and to hammer out enough iron to put ends on his wooden plows, and the country is continuing to exist, it is my opinion, on the accumulated goods, manufactured goocls, and (On the f oad and shelter that is accumulated. 108 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Overman. It is a great country over there. jMr. Harper. I have had statements from several men who left there as late as October who said that in view of the conditions that they saw in the cities, they do not believe that those urban centers will be able to avoid literal famines and epidemics during these win- ter months. Now, as to the extent of these famines and epidemics in the last months we do not know, because our reports from Eus- sia, particularly in the last month, have been very inadequate. , (Thereupon, at 5.45 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee ad]'ourned until to-morrow, Wednesday, February 12, 1919, at 10..30 o'clock a. m.) (The following was subsequently ordered inserted here in this record, having been handed in too late for inclusion in the hearings under Senate resolution 307:) JIayoe Thompson's Pledge to United Societies. expression op views by candidate for public office to the united societies fob local self-govern itent. The undersigned respectfully represents that he is a candidate for the office Of Mayor on the Republican Ticket of the City of Chicago at the election to be held, Tuesday April 6th, A. D. 1915. That he favors and will promote in every way the objects for which the United Societies for Local Si^lf-Government ^vere organized ; namely : Personal Liberty, Home Rule, and Equal Taxation. That he believes every citizen should be protected in the full enjoyment of all the personal rights and liberties guaranteed him by the Constitution of the United States and the State of Illinois. And, that if elected Mayor of the City of Chicago, he will use all honorable means to promote such objects : 1 : That he will oppose all laws known as " Blue Laws " and that he espe- cially declares that he is opposed to a closed Sunday, believing that the State Law referring to Sunday closing is obsolete and should not be enforced by the City Administration. And that he is opposed to all ordinances tending to cur- tail the citizens of Chicago in the enjoyment of their liberties on the weekly day of rest. 2 : That he is in favor of " Special Bar Permits " until three o'clock A. M., being issued by the City of Chicago to reputable societies or organizations for the purpose of permitting such societies to hold their customary entertainments. 3 : That as mayor he will use his veto power to prevent the enactment of any ordinance which aims at the abridgment of the rights of personal liberty or is intended to repeal any liberal ordinance now enacted, especially one repealing or amending the " Special Bar Permit " ordinance now in force. 4: That he will oppose the further extension of the Prohibition Territory within the City Limits, unless such extension is demanded by a majority of the residents in a district in which, at least, two-thirds of the building lots arc improved with dwelling houses. 5 : That he is unalterably opposed to having the Anti-Saloon Territory Law extended to the City of Chicago. 6: I hereby declare, that I have not signed the pledge of the Anti-Saloon League, any other so-called " Reform-Organization " and have not given any pledge to any newspaper. Chicago, March — A. D. 1915. (Name) Wm. Hale Thompson, (Address) 3200 Sheridan Rd. Received and placed on file, iNIurch 20th, 1915. Aman Beennan, Sei the Russian mind and psychology, and it is my contention that if there had not been such a large number of political parties Kerensky might have won the day with a provisional government. Soon after we noticed a pro-German current quite marked Senator Wolcott. Soon after when? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Ill ^Ir. Simons. After the great revolution of the winter of 1917. Senator Wolcott. In March? Mr. Simons. Let us say it made itself felt within two months. I can not tell you just when Trotsky and Lenine came in. I have no data here. Senator Wolcott. You speak of the revolution of the winter of 1917. We had it referred to yesterday as of March, 1917. Is that what YOU mean by the winter of 1917, along about March? Mr. Simons. Yes. Senator Wolcott. I did not want any confusion in the time. Mr. Si3ioNS. They had the old calendar system there, which is 13 days behind ourg. Senator Nelson. It culminated in March? Mr. SiMoxs. Yes; the new style, I should say. We then soon noticed that whereas at the beginning of the- so-called new regime there was a disposition to glorify the allies and to make a great deal of what the French Revolution had stood for; within from six to eight weelis there was an undercurrent just the opposite, and things began to loom up in a pro-German Avay. I could not bring any of my papers that we had collected over there along, because everything .was examined as we passed the border — the Russian- Finland border — last October, but in our church archives we have all these papers, and we have saved every scrap; and I think at least 50 of my friends have collected data for us. Senator Nelson. Let me call your attention to this. Was it not one of the first acts of ^^hat we call the Kerensky government to issue a general pardon to offenders? Mr. Simons. Yes. Senator Nelson. And did not that result in bringing back Lenine from Siberia? Mr. Simons. Lenine, as you recall, did not come from Siberia, but came from another part of Europe, passing through Germany. Senator Nelson. But he Tiad been gent to Siberia ? Mr. Simons. Yes. Senator Nelson. He had been sent to Siberia either as a convict, or had been deported, and he came back by way of Switzerland and Germany. Mr. Simons. Well Senator Nelson. Do you not know that? Mr. Simons. We knew that he came from Switzerland. Senator Nelson. With German passports? Mr. Simons. With German passports, and the Germans expe- dited his transit, and the exit of those who came into Russia at the time when this movement had already been under way. Senator Wolcott. Which movement had been under way? Mr. Simons. The movement which became known as the Bol- shevik movement. Senator Wolcott. Well, you do not mean that he came in after this pro-German undercurrent had developed ? Did he come after the appearance of that pro-Germanism, or before? Mr. Simons. He came while that thing was growing. Senator Wolcott. And, of course, he did not try to stop it any, did he? 112 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. IMr. SisroNs. Kerensky was spending a good deal of his time run- ning up and down the front, trying to hearten the B,u=;sian soldiers in their warfare, and he was generally accredited with being a fine orator and doing splendid work, and I do not doubt but what he did manage to keep the men longer than they otherwise would have stayed in, but we were told there were hundreds of agitators who had followed in the trail of Trotsky-Bronstein, these men having come over from the lower East Side of New York. I was sur- prised to find scores of such men walking up and down Xevslty. Some of them, when they learned that I was the American pastor in Petrograd, stepped up to me and seemed very much pleased that there was somebody who could speak English, and their broken Eng- lish showed that they had not qualified as being real Americans; and a number of these men called on me, and a number of us were imjDressed with the strong Yiddish element in this thing right from the start, and it soon became evident that more than half of the agi- tators in the so-called Bolshevik movement were Yiddish. Senator Nelsox. Hebrews? Mr. Siiiox'.s. They were Hebrews, apostate Jews. I do not want to say anything against the Jews, as such. I am not in sympathy with the anti-Semitic movement, never have been, and do not ever expect to be. I am against it. I abhor all pogroms of whatever kind. But I have a firm conviction that this thing is Yiddish, and that one of its bases is found in the East Side of New York. Senator Nelson. Trotsky came over from New York during that summer, did he not? Mr. Simons. He did. Senator O^teehiax. You think he brought these people with him? Mr. Simons. I am not able to say that he brought them with him. I think that most of them came after him, but that he was responsible for their coming. Senator Over Ji an. Do you know whether the Germans furnished them any money to come? Mr. Simons. It was generally understood that Lenine and Trotsky had been financed by the German Imperial Government. Docu- ments were afterwards issued showing that these leaders of the Bolshevik movement had received German funds. Mr. Nicholas A. Zorin, a personal friend of mine, who is the vice president of the so- called society for promoting mutual friendly relations between Eus- sia and America, worked out a treatise, as he called it, showing that the German Imperial Government was backing this thing, and he had gotten hold of certain documents, and he issued this thing privately, and scores of copies were sent to us for distribution. These were mimeograph copies. I could not bring one over with me, but I suppose the contents of his treatise are kno'\^■n to the State Department, because I handed copies to our embassy and our consulate. Senator Nelson. Have you got copies yourself, at home? Mr. Simons. No; I did not dare to bring that across the border, because it might incriminate me. Senator Nelson. We ought to get that document and put it in the record. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 113 Mr. Simons. I think you will find a copy in the Russian division, of the State Department. I am pretty sure they have one. Senator Overman. It would be a very remarkable thing if the Bolshevik movement started in this country, financed by Germans, would it not? Mr. Simons. I do not think the Bolshevik movement in Russia would have been a success if it had not been for the support it got from certain elements in New York, the so-called East Side. Maj. Humes. Doctor, you have referred to Lenine coming from Siberia through Switzerland. Is it not a fact that Lenine went from Siberia to Switzerland about the time or shortly before the out- break of the European war in 1914, and Avas in Switzerland from that time up until the time he returned to Russia? Mr. Simons. I have not paid particular attention to that phase of Lenine's career. I only know he was given the privilege by the German Imperial Government to have a hasty transit through Ger- many, and that they evidently seemed to be very anxious to get him as quickly as possible over to Russia. May I state at this juncture that before the outbreak of the war — that is, before Russia entered into the war — we were apprised, and it is a fact, that hundreds of thousands of rubles had been put at the disposal of certain labor leaders in St. Petersburg, as it was then known, to create a strike in the factories. A large number of fac- tories in Petrograd, as well as in Moscow and other parts of Russia near these large centers, have been controlled by British and Ger- man capital. It was apparent at that time that Germany was trying to cripple Russia economically by getting her into the throes of an awful strike. I have spoken with men who were high up in official life in Petrograd, and they said they had proofs. The thing after- wards came out in the Russian press, and, of course, there was a very strong anti-German feeling there as the result of that. Well, that strike did not prove successful because the old regime had so much power that it succeeded in squelching it. I have noticed again and again in Russia that there is a strong German element there. I gave a copy to our ambassador. Gov. Francis, of a so-called German yearbook which was suppressed, as well as a German daily newspaper, the oldest newspaper, so they claim, in all Russia, which was suppressed soon after Russia's en- trance into the war, and when the Bolsheviki came into power all these things were started up again. German papers were not only published, and everything that was German and pro-German fos- tered, but we also knew that at the outbreak or before the outbreak of the Bolshevik revolution of October, 1918, there were several Ger- man officers in the seat of the Smolny government, so called. There were two institutes « that had that name, and one of the buildings Lenine and Trotzky and their forces took even while Kerensky and the provisional government were governing, and one of the oldest teachers in the Smolny Institute had occasion to come over to the building where the Bolsheviki now had their guns, doing their work of propagandizing the Russian j)roletariat. She is a lady over 50 years of age, and had been teaching in the Smolny Institute, I presume, over 20 years, and has been attending our church for about 10 years, and is related to some of the most 114 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. distinguished Eussians. She came to see me and said, " I have had an opportunity, because of being a teacher in the Smolny Insti- tute, to visit certain rooms in the building now occupied by the so- called Bolshevik government. I have seen with my own eyes Ger- man officers sitting at the long table around which sat the leaders of the Bolshevik movement. I have heard German spoken there. Because they believed in me I have had the privilege of passing through certain rooms, having to take certain things over for our teachers and our pupils, and what not, and several times I have noticed German documents on the table, with the German stamp''; and one time she told me that she had become impressed by one thing in the Smolny Institute, that more German was being used there than Russian. It may be she heard Yiddish, because Yiddish is partly German. It seems strange to me, but when you talk with the average man from the lower East Side he is not going to speak English or Russian, but he is going to speak Yiddish. It may be that she heard Yiddish and thought that she heard German; but anyway, that was her testimony. Senator Nelson. The Yiddish language is distinct from the He- brew? Mr. Simons. It is German. It is a mistum compositum. Senator Nelson. It is a mixture of Hebrew and German, is it not? Mr. SiMONSif There are some Slavic terms, some Russian, and somB Polish iii it, and it may have some English, too. The Yiddish that is spoken on the East Side of New York has ever so much of the Eng- lish in it, and the Yiddish that is spoken in Petrograd, Moscow, War- saw, and Odessa, would have quite a lot of Russian in it. Senator Overman. This institute was the nest, the beginning, of this government, was it not? That was where it started, was it not? Mr. Simons. Yes. Senator Wolcott. You have made one statement here which to me is very interesting, largely because it may be intensely significant. Some time back in your testimony you said that it was your con- tention that if it were not for these elements that had come from the East Side of New York City, the Bolsheviki movement would have been a failure. That to me is very interesting, because if it is true it is very significant. There are many people in this country, I think — I am sure there are many people— ^who rather look upon this Bolsheviki movement as just a passing fad, and of no deep signifi- cance ; but, of course, if the success of this monstrous thing m Russia is due to the men who came out of New York City, then this country has not anything to deal with that is trifling, at all. Now, because of the very significance of that, can you tell us any- thing in the way of detail that leads you to the conviction that the presence of these East Side people in Russia contributed to the suc- cess of the Bolsheviki movement ? Mr. Simons. The latest startling information, given me by some one who says that there is good authority for it — and I ani to be given the exact figures later on and have them checked up properly by the proper authorities — is this, that in December, 1918. in the northern community of Petrograd, so-called — that is what they call that section of the Soviet regime under the presidency of the man known as Mr. Apfelbaum — out of 388 members, only 16 happened to BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 115 be real Russians, and all the rest Jews, with the exception possibly of one man, who is a negro from America, who calls himself Prof. Gordon, and 265 of the members of this northern commune govern- ment, that is sitting in the old Smolny Institute, came from the lower East Side of New York — 265 of them. If that is true, and they are going to check it up for me — certain Eussians in New York who have been there and investigated the facts — I think that that fits into what you are driving at. In fact, I am very much impressed with this, that moving around here I find that certain Bolsheviki propagandists are nearly all Jews — apostate Jews. I have been in the so-called People's House, at 7 East Fifteenth Street, New York, which calls itself also the Rand School of Social Science, and I have visited that at least six times during the last eleven weeks or so, buying their literature, and some of the most seditious stuff I have ever found against our own Government, and 19 out of every 20 people I have seen there ha^e been Jews. And as I move around to give my lectures, usually I am pursued by Bolsheviki propagandists, and in one big church in New York I was interrupted, on the east side of the church — it so happened that they were sitting on the east side of the church — by two Bolsheviki agita- tors. I suppose they were agitators because they tried to agitate while I was giving my lecture on Russia, and they grumbled and growled, and the assistant pastor stepped up to them and tried to calm them, and they instantly remarked to him — I hate to repeat it,. but if you want to know I will tell you — " Everything that man says is a damn lie." When the pastor assured them that that language was not quite proper in the church, and so on, and asked them to speak with the speaker himself afterwards, they said it was no use speaking with him, " He knows nothing. But this book will tell you all about the thing, and give you the truth," and they handed him this book bj' Albert Rhys Williams, " 76 Questions and Answers on the Bolsheviki and Soviets," and he turned it over to me. On several other occasions men have tried to disturb our meetings^ using this pamphlet of Williams. I have analyzed certain questions and answers, especially with re- gard to this paragraph on religion, and I have no doubt in my mind that the predominant element in this Bolsheviki movement in America is, you may call it, the Yiddish of the East Side. Senator Wolcott. You said that you met many of these New York East Siders on the streets in Petrograd, did you not? Mr. Simons. I met a number of them on the Nevsky Prospect in Petrograd, yes; and spoke with them, and a number of them have visited me. Senator Wolcott. That was how long ago ? Mr. Simons. That was, I should say, well, along in, I think, June- and July. I have all these things checked up over in Petrograd, but they are put away in a trunk just now in the embassy, so, of course,. if i do not strike a date right Senator Wolcott. Approximately. Mr. Simons. I should say it was just before they made their first attempt in July, 1917, to oust Kerensky, but he had enough strength to put them down. Senator Wolcott. Are you able to say whether or not the appear- ance of these East Side New Yorkers, these agitators, was a sudden; 116 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. appearance there ; did they seem to come all at once, a flock of them, so to siJeak, or had they been around, but just started to talk^ iNIr. SiJioxs. I was impressed with this, Senator, that shortly after the great revolution of the winter of 1917 there were scores of Jews standing on the benches and soap boxes, and wliat not, talking until their mouths frothed, and I often remarked to my sister. " "Well, what are we coming to, anyway? Tliis all looks so Yiddish." Up to that time we had very few Jews, because there was, as you may know, a restriction against having Jews in Petrograd ; but after the revolution thev swarmed in there, and most of the agitators happened to be Jews. I do not want to be unfair to them, but I usually know a Jew- when I see one. Senator Overman. You mean they are apostate Jews ? ^Ir. Simons. Apostate Jews; yes. Senator Wolcott. You mean Christianized Jews? Mr. Simons. No, sir. Senator Wolcott. What do you mean by the term '' apostate " ? Mr. Simons. An apostate Jew is one who has given up the faith of his fathers or forefathers. Senator Wolcott. But he lias not accepted any other ? JMr. Simons. He has not accepted any other, except the Bolslievik faith or anarchistic faith, whatever it may be. Senator O^'erjian. AVere any of these men you met over there afterwards promoted by Trotsky or his people in the cabinet? ]Mr. Simons. Some weelcs before 1 left Petrograd 1 became quite well acquainted with one member of the Soviet government, who was the commissar of the post and telegraph, Sergius Zorin, and I tried to get a dictum from him as to what would happen to me if I stayed there, inasmuch as a decree had been issued by the Soviet government that all subjects of allied countries remaining in Russia, from 18 to 45 years of age, would be considered as prisoners of war. Our em- bassy had urged all Americans residing in Russia, in the fall of 1917 and the winter of 1918, to leave that territory. Finally, Consul Poole, who was in Moscow up to about the middle or end of Septem- ber, 1918, wrote a letter to me stating that the American Government demanded that all American citizens should leave Russia immedi- ately, and that I should use whatever influence I had with the other Americans in Petrograd to have them leave also. 1 then and there decided that I ought to find out just what would happen in case 1 could not get out — wliat would happen to me and my sister. I was not quite 45, but was within six months of my forty- fifth birthday, and I wanted to get from some of these commissars what they would do to me. The president of the northern commune section would not receive me. They told me he was not receiving anybody, that he was strongly guarded, and never slept in the same room twice. Senator Nelson. What was his name? Mr. Simons. Apfelbaum. That is his real name, but his assumed Russian name, like many of them, is Zinovyetf. His real name is Apfelbaum. Senator Nelson. That means apple tree, does it not ? Mr. Simons. Yes. But his second or third secretary — they were all Jews there — referred me in a rather vague way to any other com- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 117 missar that I might see. There had been threats made to kill not only Lenine and Trotsky, but Apfelbaum, and just prior to that another man, who, as was said, held the lives of all of us in his hands, and who was responsible for the killing of so many people without even a trial given them, was assassinated by a Jew. There was an awful terroristic atmosphere in Petrograd, and we were expect- ing still worse things to happen every day. With a view to finding out what my real status quo was in Soviet tei'ritory, and not having had any success with Mr. Apfelbaum, I Avent to the commissar of the post and telegraph, Sergius Zorin. I had learned that he had come from New York, whei'e he had spent eight years. Senator Nelson. What was his real name? Mr. Simons. I never asked him, but Avhen I called on him — I will get up to that point presently — he told me that so long as the Ameri- can troops did not take the offensive on Russian territory, we Ameri- cans residing in Russia would not be considered prisoners of war. I cabled that immediately to our authorities in New York, through the Norwegian Legation, who had the protection of American citizens and interests in Russia at that time. Senator Nelson. Did he speak to you in English, this man? Mr. Simons. He spoke in English. His English was quite fair. Senator Nelson. He had come from this country ? Mr. Simons. He had been in this country. Senator Nelson. From the East Side? Mr. Simons. I imagine so. Senator Wolcott. How do you spell his name ? Mr. Simons. Sergius Zorin, the commissar of the post and tele- graph. Commissar Zorin was very gracious, not only to me but also to Capt. Webster,' with whom he soon after became acquainted,, who was the head of the American Red Cross mission to Russia, While discussing different things Zorin told me that he was anxious to hear from his brother, a certain Alexander Gumberg, who he said was the secretary of Col. Raymond Robins. Senator Nelson. Where was he? Mr. Simons. He had left Russia, and Zorin was anxious to hear something from him. He said he had not heard from him for a long time, so he asked me if I, getting any papers from the outside or any mail, could get any word out to his brother. I said I would be glad to do that for him, and I wrote a letter to that effect to Col. Robins, which I believe he has never received. When last I met him he said he had not received it. Senator Nelson. Who is this Col. Robins? !Mr. SiMoxs. Col. Raymond Robins was identified with the Ameri- can Red Cross missimi ito Russia. Senator Nelson. Was he there in Russia, or here? Mr. Simons. At the tim.e I was speaking with Mr. Zorin he vas here in Amerirn, and Mr. Zorin spoke of him highly and said that he was the greatest American of all, and he hoped that he would be ambassador to Russia. , , .„ . -r. Senator 0-\terman. He is the chairman of the Progressive Party, is he not, Raymond Robins? Mr SiMoxs. I do not know very much about him, except what i have seen in Who's Who. I had always thought highly of Mm 118 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. until he came over to Russia and embarrassed our embassy in many ways and got into the press, and our ambassador was obliged to come out again and again with certain statements, and finally the unpleasant controversy, if we may call it such, Avas brought to an end by a statement made by Ambassador Francis that he and Col. Eobins were friends, and he did not know who Avas trj'ing to cause enmity between them, or something to that effect, and he hoped now that this thing would be put at an end. I read all those things in the Russian press, and we felt very much distressed over it. because we thought that our ambassador, who was doing such magnificent work over there, ought to have the support of every last American. There was no reason why anybody should pose even as a candidate, so called, for the ambassadorship to the Soviet government. Senator "Wolcott. AVhat was the nature of the controversy that you speak of between the ambassador and Mr. Robins, that was pub- lished in the papers? Air. Simons. I have not the papers here. I think Prof. Harper is probably in possession of those papers, or they must have them in the Russian division of the Department of State. Senator "Wolcott. Can you not tell us in a general waj' what it was? Mr. SiAiONS. As I recall the whole thing, the Soviet government was feeling very strongly about the attitude which the allies and America, for that matter, had taken in regard to the Lenine-Trotsky regime in not recognizing them, and withdrawing their representa- tives, their ambassadore, and so on, and Gov. Francis issued, several times, messages in the Russian press to the Russian people assuring them of the good will of America, and so on; and coming out very plainly with this statement, that the Brest-Litovsk treaty would not be recognized at the peace conference, and in our Thanksgiving service in the American church in Petrograd in November, 1917, the ambassador said a similar thing. I have a copy of that speech. There were quite a number of distinguished Russians present, and that speech of his irritated the Bolsheviki very much. Then, his Fourth of July message, which was given in Vologda, on the 4th of July, 1918, distressed them very much, too. That was afterwards printed in thousands of copies in Russian and widely circulated, and Gov. Francis in that message, of course, even more strongly than ever stated that the Brest-Litovsk treaty would not be recognized at the peace conference, but that America would stand by the Russian nation and had a real affection for the Russian nation. 1 am only quoting in a general way, because I have not the data here before me. Col. Robins was quoted again and again as being the typical American, having been a workingman himself, having been down in the mines, and whatnot, and he knew the needs of the laboring people, the laboring element, and so on; and then our Ambassador Francis was placed as being a typical capitalist, and they rang off a good deal of that, and he was persona non grata with the Bolsheviki officials for that reason. The criticisms against the Root mission were just along that same line. Senator Wolcott. Was all that accompanied by the suggestion that Mr. Robins ought to be ambassador ? BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 119 Mr. Simons. That came out again and again,- that he really was going to be, and he ought to be, the American ambassador to the soviet government. Senator WoLCOTr. Is that what Mr. Apfelbaum wanted, too ? Mr. Simons. I have not spoken with Mr. Apfelbaum. Senator Wolcott. I mean the other fellow. Mr. Simons. Mr. Zorin? Senator Wolcott. Yes. j\Ir. Simons. Zorin was very enthusiastic about that proposition. Then he asked me if I could get in touch with his brother, Alexander Gumberg, who was supposed to be with Col. Robins somewhere in America ; but when I came here I did not find him. I was told that he had gone back to Europe, and possibly was going to Russia. Senator Overman. Did Robins make any statements over there, showing he was ambitious for this place and was siding with the Soviet government? Mr. Simons. He was reported as having said certain things, but I am not in a position to say that he really made those statements. I only know this much : There was a strong feeling on the part of the real Russian element against this thing. It became very nauseating to the people who really had admiration for America, and for our own American representative. Gov. Francis, whom I esteem most highly, as also his staff. I think we were most fortunate in hav- ing those men over there. I do not know any finer set that we ever had. Senator Nelson. Now, to bring you back to the chronological order of events, after Kerensky got in charge of the government, he at- tempted to prosecute the war against the Germans, did he not ? Mr. Simons. Kerensky, I believe, was sincere in that. Senator Nelson. He carried that on for a while, and was success- ful, until finally the Russian Army got demoralized and insisted on controlling their officers and everything else, and refused to fight, is not that true ? Mr. Simons. That is true. Senator Nelson. Do you know anything about how that movement demoralizing the army was inspired; by what element? Mr. Simons. I have heard from somebody recently, and I could check it up within a few days, 'that there was one American in the Y. M. C. A. that actually saw German money being passed over from the German front to the Russians. Senator Nelson. Among the Russian soldiers ? Mr. Simons. And to the men who were authorized to receive the money for propagandist purposes. Senator Nelson. Among the Russian Army ? Mr. Simons. Yes; and I do happen to know that soon after the great revolution of the winter of 1917 tens of thousands of copies of the communist manifesto, in Russian, were circulated among the Russian soldiers. It contained the official program of the Bolsheviki. That is the communist manifesto, and this is the thing that made the Lenine-Trotsky propaganda successful over there. This is an Eng- lish translation. Senator Nelson. Was not the collapse of the Russian Army, and the demoralizing of that army, by which the soldiers refused to 120 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. fight, and even went over to the enemy, one of the means of helping Trotsky and Lenine to get control of the Go\-ernment? Mr. Simons. Most assuredly. Senator Overmax. And did these Yiddish from the East Side, who Avere there assisting Lenine and Trotsky, discuss this question of Bolshevism with you, or how did they impress you ? Mr. Simons. They were very guarded, because they knew that as a 100 per cent American, and as a Christian clergyman, I would not be in sympathy with the ideals and spirit, and the means which they were thinking of employing; but when I spoke with these men I always told them that our Methodist Episcopal Church in America, in the general conference of 1916, had passed very fine resolutions with regard to labor reform, and what not, and that ours was really the people's church. I had said that, and said also that I was a Christian Socialist, of course reserving for myself the definition. I am a Christian Socialist in the sense that every Christian who takes the New Testament as his ideal would be, standing very much where Charles Kingsley and Morris stood, believing not in revolutionary socialism, but evolutionary socialism, taking the Sermon on the Mount of Christ, and the thirteenth chapter of First Corinthians, as the ideal, believing that not by force but by moral persuasion shall we really succeed in making a brotherhood out of the Avhole human race. Senator King. You recognized that a brotherhood was compatible with the maintenance of orderly government ? Mr. Simons. I certainly would. Senator King. And your ideal of Christianity did not mean the subversion of government? Mr. Simons. First, last, and all the time I stood for Avhat we con- sider the most ideal government the world has ever had, the Govern- ment of the United States of America ; and I had no sympathy at all with the red flag propagandists. Senator King. You believed in a government that recognized the right of contract, the right of acquisition and the possession of prop- erty, and all those personal rights which we enjoy under our repre- sentative form of government? Mr. Simons. I certainly do. Senator King. You believe in this form of government? Mr. Simons. I certainly do. Senator King. You do not believe in any socialism which has for its object the destruction of our form of government? Mr. Simons. I absolutely repudiate all that. Senator King. So your classifying yourself as a Christian So- cialist does not mean an opposition to our form of government? Mr. Simons. Wlien I say Christian Socialist I mean that I take that tenn and I put it as high as it ever could be put, taking the teaching of Jesus Christ Avith regard to the principle of the father- hood of God and the brotherhoocl of man, standing by what Christ taught, the very best kind of socialism the world could ever hope for. That is Avhere Kingsley and Morris stood. That is where I think every real man would stand who knoAvs anything at all about the New Testament. If, of course, they had known what I had back in my mind, they would not have recognized me even as a tenth- rate Socialist. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 121 Senator Nelson. You were there Avhen the treaty of Brest-Litovsk was entered into? Mr. Simons. I was. Senator Nelson. Can you tell us anything wliich actuated the Bol- sheviki in entering into such a treaty? By that treaty they re- linquished the Ukraine, they relinquished Finland, they relinquished Courland and the Baltic coast, all, to the Germans. At all events, they gave up all, so that they left Russia with no access to the sea except at Petrograd; and they also got considerable gold from the Russian Government or from the Bolsheviki. Senator King. You ought to add to that, Senator, the Aland Islands, which are at the mouth of the sea, so it made the harbor of Petrograd valueless. Senator Nelson. The Aland Islands are southwest of the Finnish coast. Senator King. But they are really a protection, as a naval base, very largely, to the entrance to the harbor that goes in to Petrograd — that arm of the sea that extends into Russia. Senator Nelson. Now, what information can you give us about that. Doctor? Mr. Simons. I am not a military expert, as you know. I read the papers and I heard the account of their proceedings at the Brest- Litovsk meeting, and so on, with scores of others who were in the British, American, and French colonies in Petrograd and Moscow, and Russians who were well qualified to pass judgment on the thing. I also had a strong conviction that the Brest-Litovsk performance was largely a German thing, and that for the simple reason that while Lenine and Trotsky ancl their helpers were saying all kinds of bitter things about the allies, I hardly ever, up to that time, caught them saying anything very bitter against Germany. I had seen their proclamations, and only last summer, in July and August. One particularly I have in mind, which was addressed to the whole civilized world and posted up all over Petrograd, and that referred in no delicate language to the allies as being flesh-eating and blood- drinking allies. Senator King. That included the United States, of course, in that category. Mr. Si^ioNS. Well, then they went on to speak of England and France. As I recall, I do not think they mentioned us, but in a number of conversations that I had with officials in the Soviet regime I discovered that there was a tendency to remain, if possible, friendly with America, which was interpreted by men in the diplo- matic service of the allied countries as being an attempt, if possible, to separate America from her allies. And then again, when the Bolsheviki regime would fall to pieces there might be an asylum to which the Bolsheviki demons might escape. Excuse me for calling them demons, but I have seen so much that I have not been able to find a better word to characterize thera. Senator Overman. Do you know this man Gordon that you spoke of — ^this negro from the United States? Mr. Simons. Yes ; I knew him. He came over to me to get married to a so-called Russian lady, who was an Esthonian. He lived with her only a short time. 122 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Overiiax. Where did he come from, do you know? Mr. Simons. He came from America. He was a pugilist, and issued cards as being a professor of physical culture, boxing, and ■what not, and for a certain time he was the doorkeeper in our American Embassy in Petrograd. Senator Overman. You spoke of him as being mixed up with this Bolshevik crowd in the institute. ]\ir. Simons. I think that is the same Gordon — Prof. Gordon. Senator Overman. You spoke of his being in with these Bol- .sheviks. ^Ir. Simons. That is the last statement that we had. Senator Overman. That he was with them? INIr. Simons. That was the last statement. Senator Xelsox. Do you not think the Germans absolutely con- trolled the situation at the time that the treaty of Brest -Litovsk was entered into, and that they practically had their own way? Mr. Simons. I certainly do. Senator Nelson. Do you not believe that Trotsky and Lenine were really in the toils of Germany and willing to do what Gennany wanted ? , Mr. Simons. I have been led to believe that most of the men in the Bolsheviki service, who are real Bolshevists — there are some who are not — most of them are avowedly antially, and have a strong hatred toward England, and an affection for Germany. That has come out again and again. Senator Nelson. "Were j'ou there when the revolution of Lenine and Trotsky, as distinguished from the former revolution, took place, in November, 1917? Mr. Simons. T was present. Senator Nelson. Can you tell us about what took place then? Mr. Simons. It is a long story. To give you a graphic picture of it would take hours. I can only say this Senator Nelson. Give us an outline. Mr. Simons. I can onlj' say this, that the air was pregnant with the most hellish terrorism that any fine grained person could ever expe- rience. I dressed up again and again as a Russian workman and put on a Russian shirt that hangs down almost to the knees, and I put on an old slouch hat and nickel spectacles so that my sister said I really looked like a Bolshevist, and I went out and moved among those fellows and I heard their talk. I moved into the barracks. I wanted to get inside information inasmuch as I was preparing a book. I felt that history was being made, and I believed in Russia, I loved Russia, but I did not believe in this thing, and I wanted to see just what it would do to the Russia that I expected to live, and I wanted to get first-hand information, and as I moved among the hoi poUoi, I found that the average man did not know the difference between his elbows and his knees. These agitators would come and speak for Lenine and Trotsky, and they would say, " That is entirely correct, entirely correct." And then, after those agitators had left with their truck auto, another auto would come along, and there would be some other agitators. Senatoi^ Nelson. "Who were those agitators ? Were they workmen ■or soldiers, or of what class or community? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 123 Mr. Simons. They were made up of professional agitators, and some of them had on the Russian uniform, and some of them were simply clad as workmen, with the black robosa or workman's shirt. Senator King. Had any of them been in the United States, and gone back? Mr. Simons. Some of them had. Senator King. From the East Side? Mr. Simons. From the East Side, as I happen to knoAv. Senator Wolcott. This man Apfelbauni was not from the East Side? Mr. Simons. I do not k^ow. I have not been informed as to his antecedents, and so on. I have a paper here which was circulated when Lenine and Trotsky were asserting themselves, in August, Sep- tember, and October of 1917, giving a list of about 20 names, showing the Jewish in one column, and then the assumed Russian name in the other. That thing was considered a very dangerous document, but it was being circulated everywhere, and one copj' came to me. In that ■document I found Apfelbaum's name, and his assumed name. Be- yond that I do not know anything about Mr. Apfelbaum. Senator King. I interrupted, you when you were answering Senator Nelson's question. Senator Nelson. I would like to have you go on further and tell us. Mr. Simons. We could not escape this observation, that the suc- qess of the Bolsheviki revolution was largely due to the fact of having ■employed terrorism. Senator Overman. What was the nature of the terrorism? Mr. Simons. They had practically all their men armed. The work- ingman there got so inspired with the holy zeal of the great cause, which was to kill off -the capitalist and enthrone the proletariat, that he felt he was in a holy crusade for humanity's sacred cause. That is the way those men talked : and these men were given arms. I have •one paper here which shows that they used it as a slogan. It reads something like this, " The surety of the proletarian cause lies in put- ting the gun into the hand of the workman." It was that thing that made the Bolsheviki revolution a success. Without having the so- called proletarian element armed. I do not believe it would have suc- ceeded. Senator Nelson. The masses of their people, then, were armed, and paraded the streets in armed bodies, did they not? Mr. Simons. Many of them ; yes. Senator Nelson. And that parading of these armed men bred this spirit of terrorism? Mr. Simons. They then took opportunity to oppose all political parties that were not in favor of the Bolsheviki program. The differ- ■ent parties were defined, and they were still hoping that they might succeed in having their constituent assembly, but soon after the Bolshevist revolution had succeeded, even those banners were torn down, and it was considered the most dangerous thing to even speak in favor of a constituent assembly. Senator King. A constituent assembly representing all of them? Mr. Simons. All of the parties. Senator King. Which gave them all a chance to participate? Mr. Simons. Yes. 124 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator King. The peasants, the workingmen, the laboring men: proletariat and capitalistic classes? Mr. Simons. Yes. Senator King. A sort of general democratic government? Mr. Simons. Yes. Senator Wolcott. Were there any threats manifest at that time to kill those who had property or were intellectual people? Mr. Simons. After the Bolsheviki came into power one paper after another that stood out against them was suppressed, and it was not long before we had only one kind of press there, and that was the Bolshevistic or anarchistic. I h^ve a few copies here, and in these papers they employ the harshest terms that I have ever found, in regard to putting out of the way all groups or institutions that were not in sympathy or in accord with the Bolshevik ideal, spirit, and program. Senator King. Do you mean assassination and murder to accom- plish that end? Mr. Simons. It became quite evident that they had that as their — what shall I say? — trump card, and many of their proclamations breathed not only an intense diabolical class hatred, but also murder, and for weeks and weeks they were fine-tooth combing the dif- r«nt sections of Petrograd — and ^loscow, for that matter — trying to get hold of the officers who up to that time had been holding out against them. Many of them had already made their escape and gone over to the allies. Senator Nelson. You mean the army officers ? Mr. Simons. The army officers. And they were rushing from one home to another. Some of them even came to us and asked whether they could not spend the night with us. They said, " It will be only for one night " ; but we never did that, for the simple reason that we did not want to be found guilty of that sort of thing. Scores of these officers — and some of them who were high up in the Russian Army under the old Government and imder the provisional govern- ment — called on me when the embassy was no longer there, and asked me to give them either a card or a letter to our embassy in Vologda, which I did. These men gave me a good deal of information, too. I have made memoranda of some of these conversations, but all that lies in the trunk over in the American Embassy in Petrograd, await- ing the day when I can go there and use it for later publication. Senator Xelson. Can you tell us of the acts of barbarism and the destruction of life and property that took place there? Can you tell us anything about that i ]\Ir. Simons. I beg your pardon. Senator Xelson. You have spoken of the terrorism they engen- dered by beinp' armed. Can you tell us wlmt they did ? ilr. SuroNs. Here are a few things that came under my own im- mediate observation : It was a short time before Ambassador Francis left Petrograd that we invited him to have dinner with us. It must have been either in December or January — I am not sure, but I am inclined to believe it must have been in January or February, 1918 — but about an hour and a half Ijefore he came, accompanied by two of his secretaries, one of the most horrible things I have ever witnessed hapjoened right in front of our American proj^erty there. I was m BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 125 my office at the time, speaking with our head deaconess, and I heard shots and groans, and looked out of the window, and right in front of our property there was a crowd of people, all ex:ited, shouting, and two Russian soldiers running, with several Eed Guards — Bol- sheviks — right after them, and I witnessed tlieui shoot each of those men as they Avere falling, three or four times in the head. Our own household became '^omewhat alarmed. We did not know just what the nature of this was. Possibly it was something that would involve us. I at once < ailed for the sexton or janitor — in this case he was both — of our church, and asked him to investigate. He then learned that these men had been in a tea-drinking room down the street, and had been charged with having tried to steal, but whether or no they were guilty never came out. But the Bolshevik Red Guards never stopped to ask whether a man was guilty or not ; they would shoot on the spot. I have seen that again and again. I had an in- stance of that brought to my attention in the case of two brothers, where the one they wanted was not there, and they shot the other man by mistake, and the other one went free. In this particular instance we felt queer, because in a minute the ambassador might come to see us, and it did not look quite palatable to have a pool of blood with two dead bodies, like that, in front of one's house, when a distinguished man like Gov. Francis was to come to dinner. But he came, and it was then already dark, for- tunately, and he did not see any of that. I told him about it, and he seemed to enjoy it. I mean he was keen on hearing any of these things. He was a brave soul, and referred to his own fearlessness, and incidentally always having a good little friend in his back pocket — a Browning. This did not unnerve the ambassador in the least. He then told me a number of things that showed that he had experienced possibly more than we had. On another occasion the Bolshevik Eed Guards, of a morning, about half past 2, tried to bi'eak into our house. They were climb- ing up the emergency ladder, and our janitor, like most other people in Petrograd, who were only getting dried fish to live on — there was hardly any bread to be had — was afflicted with the same malady that others were suffering with, and he was up that night, fortunately, and he looked around and saw two men climbing up the emergency ladder, trying to get into our house and to break into the garret. A few days before that time the door leading to the garret had been tampered with, and I suspected that something was being done, and I had the old lock taken off and a new one put on, and then a second door properly fixed up with a padlock, so they would have a kind of a hard time getting into our premises. At all events, he approached them and he said, " Comrades, what are you desiring ? What do you wish ? " They said to him, " You hold your mouth shut, and you will get 5,000 rubles," and quick as a flash he answered and said, " You think I am a Jew 1 " And then they remarked to each other, " Let us go," and they ran as fast as their feet could carry them through the yard and over the fence. I investigated that thing afterwards and found there was a plan to get me to pay money. I was looked upon by certain Bolshevik officials as being a capitalist. I was the trustee of our property, be- cause it was found up to a certain time that we could not very well 126 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. have our legalizing papers, but we took counsel with our law3'er, who was also the lawyer for the ambassador, and he said the best thing to do was to keep your property for the time being, until things became normal and Russia had a new law, in your own name. I was, because of being known as a property owner, put in the fourth cate- gory, which, of course, was to be starved out and in due time ex- pedited. I happen to know that some of the Americans who had property over there were blaclanailed ; one man in particular, Mr. Hervey, with whom I had had long talks up to the time I left. They had arrested him, and he was to pay a fine. He had a factory over there, and he had invested something like $100,000, so he told me, and the reason he stayed there was to protect his property. For some viola- tion of a decret, he had to pay a fine. They were getting out new decrets every week, and a man did not know what he could do and what he could not do, because of the multiplicity of decrets. Senator King. They were the basis of confiscation, were they not? Mr. SiMoxs. Yes. They were working out, if you please, a new scheme of government, which touched e^•ery conceivable thing in a man's social and economic existence. We at times felt so nervous that we did not know what next to expect. Where we used to have to pay 3 rubles a year as a dog tax — we had two English fox ter- riers who did excellent police duty for us — under the Bolsheviks we had to pay 50 rubles for each clog. The telephone bill used to be something like, as I recall it, 85 rubles. Under the Bolsheviks it was in the neighborhood of 300 rubles — that is, for our class. For a business man it would be, I suppose, from 500 to 600 rubles. And so all along. If you had a bathtub, or if you had more windows than ordinarily a man ought to have, or if you had a piano, or an organ — and the last thing, that distressed us very much was that all type- writers were to be registered. I tried to get our new American type- writer put in the embassy, and the old Russian one as well. Those were never registered. I was advised by the secretary, who is still there, to do as others had been doing. Senator Overman. They had the idea of fixing a tax on type- writers ? Mr. Simons. They had the idea of laying their hands on every- thing. They could not get away from that, because they simply had a diabolical zest for gTabbing; and they were putting it really through in such a cruel way; they came in with such a diabolical glee and they would be so offensive in their language. I have had occasion to speak with some of these men, who were usually Jews, and I would never mince matters with them. I would say, "Do you know who I am, and what I have done for Russia?" and so on. "Why do you proceed in this way?" Usually when I got through they would be ready to kiss my feet, which was not necessary ; and I have this impression, that there is a large criminal element in the Bolsheviki regime. Anybody that knows anything about Russia Ivnows this, that when the great revolution of the winter of 1917 came, all the courts with their documents were destroyed. For days and days we saAv tons of old documents smoldering "on the streets. They threw those things out of the buildings and set fire to them, and Avhat not. The same thing happened to the police buildings. We had BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 127 a police precinct, so called, diagonally opposite our property, and I was on good terms with the captain, so called, of that precinct. He was a fine gentleman. I knew the other men in the office very well. That is only on the side. Out of the prisons which were destroyed hj fire — they placed machine guns on them — out of the prisons, out of the houses of detention, out of the other institutions where certain people had been kept by order of the court, came thousands of the worst type of criminals. Kerensky and the provisional gov- ernment tried to rearrest some of those. They succeeded in getting some of them back under cover. But when this Bolsheviki, anar- chistic movement effervesced, in the summer of 1917, there were groups that would swarm around certain of these places to get their comrades out, and so by the time the Bolsheviki revolution was pretty well under swing there were practically no criminals in a place where they ought to be kept, and we know it to be a fact that some of the worst characters have been holding positions under the Bolsheviki. Senator King. And those that were not elevated to such posi- tions Mr. Simons. "VYere engaged as agitators. Senator King. And many of them were armed and constituted a part of the Bolsheviki armies? Mr. Simons. And afterwards, because of their relation to the Bol- sheviki regime, and having their protection, went out and raided houses ; and when the banks were to be confiscated, socialized, and na- tionalized — ^those were the three terms we were hearing there all the time for their damnable robbery — there were men who were known to be criminals going into these banks and helping to do that sort of thing. That is a well-known fact, and you can get the names over there. Senator Nelson. Did not the Bolsheviki also absorb and take into their fold in one form or another the old nihilists? Mr. Simons. They would take anybody in. They would even take a monarchist in, provided the monarchist would say, "I will help you to run this department." Senator Nelson. Doctor, Avill you go on and tell us what you saw in reference to the efforts of the proletariat to take possession of the property of the capitalists? Senator King. If I may be pardoned, you asked him a question a few moments ago, in answer to which the doctor gave one or two instances of cruelty that came under his own observation. Generally speaking, without going into details, what can you say as to there being a reign of terror involving murder, assassination, and the driving of people from their homes, and the starving of men, women, and children, particularly those who did not belong to what might be denominated the Bolsheviki ? Mr. Simons. I could speak for hours on that and prove that the thing is diabolically terroristic, and that they have a strong animus against everybody who is not in their class, which they call the Black Workmen's Class. As a property owner there and the head of our church I had a good deal to do with them administratively. We were sought by the hour to write out all kinds of documents, according to their scheme, and we were having to run to and fro. They were nearly all Jewish persons we had to deal with, and they 128 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. were all nasty in their way of speaking of the people of the other class, offensively so. and they would sometimes come into the house and begin to stamp around, until they were given to understand they were not dealing with a Russian citizen but with an American citizen. A dozen armed men came in there and surrounded my sister and abused her. Two of them came in there armed one night, for no other reason than that they suspected I was anti-Bolshevik, and, consequently, I must be an anarchist. They banged away at our back door, and my two fox terriers ran after me, and I had to throw them first into the kitchen. I was losing time, and in the meantime these men were get- ting impatient, and they were just about to break through the door when I opened it. I had to lose some time there because we had a Yale lock, and a bolt, and then an old-fashioned Russian lock on the aoor, and I had to turn the key in that Russian lock twice, but when I got it open thej' ran right up to me and held out two revolvers against my chest and threatened to shoot me. charging me with being an anarchist. I smiled and called them " Comrades," and told them there must be a mistake; that I was not a Russian, to begin with, but that I was an American, and was a born democrat and never knew what it was to luive any monarchistic ideas at all, and that 1 was for a republic first, last, and all the time, and long before they were born. Senator Xelson. And I presume you told them you were a Chris- tian Socialist? Mr. SiMoxs. Well, afterwards that came out; but they stormed around there for a while. But when they saw they had made a mis- take they asked whether we had a telephone. Senator Nelson. Did you talk with them? Mr. SiMOxs. I certainly did. Senator Xelson. Did they speak English? Mr. Simons. They spoke Russian. Those two Red Guards were not Russians; they were Letts. The way they spoke Russian I could tell they were not real Russians, but were Letts, and the Letts, by the way, are, perhaps, the most cruel element that we had in the revo- lutions of 190.5 and the revolutions of 1917 and 1918. Senator King. The Letts constituted about 25 to 30 per cent of the Bolshevik army, as it was constituted about six months ago, and the Chinese about from 50,000 to 60,000, and the criminals about 100,000, with a few Russians, a number of Germans, and a few Austrians scattered among them. Is not that about the situation as it was about six months ago ? Mr. Simons. I think you are quite correct, generally speaking. I have learned that there are thousands of German prisoners of war, and Austrian prisoners of war, Austrians and Hungarians, who be- came infected with the Bolshevist idea while they were in prison camps in Siberia. I have met a few men who were Russians, and had been out there and investigated the thing, and they told me that even last August those men said, " We do not care one way or the other about the Bolsheviki government. What we care about is having plenty to eat and good clothes and '" — I beg pardon for say- ing this — " all the women we want." There has been a strong appeal BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 129 to that thing. The immoral element is so ever present that I hate to say it in this promiscuous company, but I am a Christian clergy- man and I know you want testimony. I am not responsible for ladies being here, but the thing is so immoral that it distresses me, especially when ladies are around. Senator Nelson. Who are the Letts, as contradistinguished troni the Eussians ? Mr. Simons. The Letts are from that section in and around Riga and they constitute a very large part of the population of Riga. When the Germans came in there and suppressed the revolution of the Bolsheviki proletariat in the Baltic Provinces, these Letts, who had done very good fighting under the old regime and were ■considered the best fighters in the Russian Army, were forced out, and they came from what they considered their own fatherland down into Russia proper, and were, if you please, without their bearings, and Lenine and Trotsky made use of them, offering them large sums of money; and although these Letts are known to have never had any affection for the Germans, especially for the Baltic Germans, and very little affection for the Russians, here came the question of having plenty of food, good shelter, and warm attire, and — I repeat what they ha-^e said themselves — the privilege of doing- whatever they wished in the cities of Petrograd and Moscow. Lenine and Trotsky both have said, and they have borne it out in their actions, that they would not rely on Russians to protect them, but they would rely on the Letts: and the Russians, on the whole, have no affection for the Letts. I believe the average Russian thinks less of a Lett than he does of any other nationality or race. Senator Nelson. The Letts are an offshoot of the Finnish race, are they not ? Mr. Simons. No: the Esthonians are an offshoot. Senator King. The Letts are Slavs, and the Finnish are ]Mr. Si3i0NS. The Finnish are related to them, and they understand ■each other quite well. If a Finn is speaking, an Esthonian will catch everything he says, and vice versa. Senator King. The Chinese formed a considerable portion of the Red Guards, did they not? Jlr. SiMOKS. Chinese coolies, quite a number of them, were up in Finland at that time, doing work under the old regime in Rus- sia, chopping down trees, and doing other manual labor there, and when the Red movement in Finland was suppressed thousands of these Chinese, who were also called coolies, came into Russia proper. We saw quite a number of them in Petrograd ; and we had quite an epidemic of smallpox, which was due to these people. Senator King. Were they not employed in building that road up on the Kola Peninsula, and the harbor there on the Murman coast? Mr. Simons. I did not have occasion to go up there, so I can not say. "Senator Kixg. But those Chinese were employed on building that road. Doctor, of your own knowledge, would you say that the Chinese and the German and Austrian soldiers who claimed no citi- zenship anywhere, men who had been prisoners in Russia, consti- tuted a part of the Bolshevist military establishment? 85723—19 9 130 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. jSiMONS. I will go this far in saying that but for this element there never would have been a nucleus to the Bed army. Senator Kixg. So, then, these former German prisoners and former Austrian prisoners, and the Chinese coolies and the Letts, with some Kussians, constituted the major part of the army? Mr. Simons. Yes ; and, of course, they were getting thousands of Russian workmen. That we saw with our own eyes, that thej- no longer could get any work, because nearly all their factories were put out of business; and there is a long story connected with that which involves German agents, and much machinery was destroyed for no other purpose than that, as we knew, Russia was to be crippled economically and made dependent upon Germany for various prod- ucts ; and we also knew — and this I state emphatically — that at the time of the Brest-Litovsk treaty, thousands of commercial men from Germany were already walking the streets of Petrograd and Moscow and other large centers, taking ordere. Senator Nelson. For German goods? Mr. Simons. For Geiinan wares; and it looked very much as though Germany had it in her mind to cripple Russia economically, and the Bolshevik regime had Senator Nelson. Winked at it? Mr. Simons. Helped it very much. Whether they did that know- ingly or not I do not know; I am not going to say; but it looked rather suspicious to many of us who were eyewitnesses. I knew men who were at the head of the work at the factories, and they said, "Just to think of it ! These workmen came in here and they stormed around, and they pulled the finest machinery to pieces, and when we tried to prevail with them not to do this, that it was bread and but- ter, they said, ' Ha, our bread and butter ! We are now demolishing capitalism.' " That was put into their heads, " We are now abolish- ing capitalism;"' but they were killing the goose that laid the golden egg. They did not quite see the connection between having a fac- tory that was kept intact and the possibility of having a livelihood. The sad part of it all is that most of those jDeople were illiterates, and it was a foregone conclusion that manv of these things could not be otherwise. Senator Xelson. Doctor, will you go on and describe to us the soviet plan of government, their scheme of government, and the way thej' propose to put it into practice? Senator King. Before that, if you will permit me, right there in sequence: You spoke about their cruelties and atrocities. What did it result in with respect to the bourgeois? Mr. Simons. It resulted in this, that thousands of the best people of Petrograd and Moscow and other parts had been losing all their property, and in many cases were having members of their own households arrested. Ever so many of these things came under my personal observation. They had only one wish, and that was to get out of Russia. But the Bolsheviki were not letting people get out of Russia. It was the hardest thing to get permission from them if you wanted to leave Russia. But they were making their escape by all kinds of methods. I will not go into that. Many of them suc- ceeded, and we succeeded in getting some very distinguished people out of Russia ourselves by hook and crook, because some of them said : BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 131 '■ If we do not get out we know we are going to be murdered, because our names are on the lists of the thousands who are held as bour- geois hostages." Senator Overman. Hostages? What does that mean? It is not used in the ordinary sense, I understand. Mr. Simons. To state it popularly, their idea was to hold certain people of the bourgeois class, whose names they had down to be ar- rested, and perhaps put out of the way if anything befell the Bolshe- vik government; for instance, like the attempt to kill Lenine, or the successful assassination of Uritzky, commissar in Petrograd, who was killed by a fellow Jew ; and these people were held as hostages. Senator King. To illustrate, they are holding now as hostage the wives and the families of some of the Russian officers whom they have forced into their army? Mr. Simons. They are. Senator King. And if they do not run the army as they think they ought to, they threaten to kill their families? Mr. Simons. I do not know whether I ought to come out with this statement, but scores of them have come to me and said that it was breaking their hearts. They say, " We have to do this, but we t]\iuk you and others ought to know, and hope you will square us with the allies." Some of the finest men I have known have said, " If we do not go in they will shoot us right down." Some were shot; some made their escape ; some were in hiding for months and months, never sleeping in the same place two nights in succession. Some of these horrible things were being enacted for weeks and weeks right in our own section, and some Americans were arrested and then afterwards released. You asked me about their terroristic methods. I was an American and was known to be a friend of Eussia, and a friend of the working people, and yet in our open meetings it became so apparent that there was a strong feeling against the Christian religion, against every- thing that was Christian, especially against the Young Men's Chris- tian Association and the Young Women's Christian Association and the Salvation Army, and all Christian bodies, that threats were made like this : A group of ill-clad workmen stood in front of our house at the close of an open-air meeting which I had conducted one Sunday afternoon, which we have been doing ever since the great winter of 1917. One of our members overheard one of them say, " Before sundown we ai'e going to stick out the eyes of that man with the spectacles." They never got as far as the spectacles. Another case was this, where an intoxicated self-confessed Bolshe- viki was moving around the pulpit. We had to take our pulpit and put it on the stone stoop that we had on the side of the house, and then we would have hundreds of people facing us, and he would move around that pulpit and I would talk kindly with him, and I told him that it was evident that he was tired, and so on, and wouldn't he take one of those chairs. We had a few chairs out there for some of our elderly people. He refused to be seated, and he came back to the pulpit again. One of our oldest members talked with him and he said " I am going to put that man out of business," and he lingered around our property for a couple of hours. After the meeting was over this one member felt very nervous about it. He had been im- 132 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. bibing, so this friend of ours, a member of mir church, took him all arovmd those streets near the garden, as they call it, or Haven of Petrograd — so that he finally, ^Yhen it grew dark, did not know where he was — and then left him, and we never saw him again. I could relate a few other things — how they tried to break into our house early in the morning, and one of the men was promptly killed bj' a Eed Guard. Senator King. Doctor, what I was trying to get at is the extent of the terror and the etfect on the bourgeoisie and the mass of the higher chi.sses; whether they are forced to starve to death or not? Jlr. SuroNs. Yes. We saw them as walking shadows in the streets of Petrograd. I have seen with my own eyes people dropping dead. First, before they pass away over there, their faces bloat up; and wq had at one time, when we were not getting bread, an average of 60 horses dropping dead on the street. Senator King. Per day? ?i[r. Si:mons. Sixty horses per day. I have seen many of them my- self lying there. A Mohammedan and a Jew came up, and they would dicker Avith each other before the horse had gone to the place of his fathers, and they would say, " If we could keep him alive a few hours more, he would be worth more." They would sell horse- flesh. I have seen people standing there — I recollect in one instance a ni:ii! in a general's uniform, a man with a white lieard, stood on Bol- shoi Prospect with tears on his cheeks, asking, " For God's sake, give me a few kopecks.'' Xone of the workmen would give him any. He stood there. I almost collapsed myself, because I had suffered my- self and seen so much of this diabolical business, this antihuniani- tarian I'egime; yet I wanted to see that. T thought that would be effective in my book. And some people of the second and third and fourth categories, who had a few spare stamps — we had no coins any more — would give him '20 ov 30 kopecks. I Ivavq been in homes where they had not had any bread for weeks, and I recall one case now ■ Senator King. Would these be the bourgeois? jMr. Simons. Yes. But they were also putting the screws on people who wei-e not bourgeois, but who were — I presume the best thing would be to call them the middle class — people that believed in the use of a clean handkerchief once in a while, having perhaps a gold ling; but that immediately would put thcni under the condemnation of being bourgeois. I had occasion to speak with people Avho were woiiving and people who were not bourgeois. I interviewed hundreds, and I asked them. ' Well, what do you think of this thing T' " Well, we know that it is first of all German, and second, we know that it is Jewish. It is not a Russian proposition at all. That became so popular that as you ujoved through the streets in Petrograd in July and August and September and the beginning of October, openly they would tell you this, " This is not a Russian Government ; this is a German and Hebrew Government." And then others would come out and say, "And very soon there is going to be a big pogrom." As a result of that, hundreds of Bolshevik officials who happened to be Jews were sending their wives and their children out of Petrograd and Moscow, afraid that the pogrom would really come. I cabled something of that in a quiet way to our authorities, and it came to them through the State Department. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 133 Senator Wolcott. I gather from what you say, Doctor, that this vhole regime over there is sustained by a small minority of these slements that are entirely out of sympathy with the great Russian jeople, and that they are imposing their will upon that nation by iorce and terror. Is that correct or not? Mr. Simons. Absolutely correct, and I have seen with my own eyes lOw they have been marching hundreds of people down the Bolslioi Prospect, on which our property was situated, and I have seen themi marching hundreds of them down to the garden or haven, and from :here they were taken down to Kronstadt and put in the fortress :here; and then through members of the Noi'wegian legation, tbo Danish legation, and the Swedish legation, we would learn that scores of them were being killed. ' Senator King. Was that a constant occurrence? Mr. Si:moxs. That was. Senator, after the assassination of Commis- sar Uritzky. Senator WoLCOi'-r. By the way, have you ever had any occasion to make a rough estimate of the number of murders committed by this Bolshevik regime from the time they got in the ascendancy in No- vember, 1917, until the time you left? Mr. Simons. It was almost impossible to get any statistics on that. Senator Wolcott. Not even approximate? Mr. Simons. I would not dare even to guess. Senator Wolcott. In the hundreds or thousands? Mr. Simons. I should say that if what they have said in their speeches, in their proclamations, and in their Bolshevik press, would be any indication, already thousands of the bourgeois class have been killed ; because they came out openly and said, " For every one of the proletariat that is killed we shall kill a thousand of the bourgeois class." Senator King. What do you say as to the starvation, the extent of it among the bourgeois and the better classes ? Mr. Simons. They had a system which divided the population into four classes. The first category — they used the term " category " — was made up of the black workmen's class. They were to have any food that might be available. Senator King. The soldiers came first, did they not? Mr. SiJcoNs. And tlie Red army; yes. Senator King. Then the black workmen ? Mr. Simons. Well, I am speaking now of this particular thine: they were sending around to us. I have a copy with me here, 'and I could show you that in translation. The first category was the black workmen's c1;isr. That constituted, if you please, the nobility of the proletariat. Then came the second category, of men who were working in the stores and offices. If anything was left after the first category got theirs, they came in. Then came the third category, which included the professional people, teachers, doctors, lawyers, clergymen, artists, singers, and so on. I belonged to that category, as a pastor. Then came the fourth category, made up of the property owners and the capitalists. The third and the fourth classes, they said openly in their Bol- shevik press and proclamations and speeches, were to be starved out. If I have heard it and read it once, I have come across that state- 134 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ment scores of times, and they even had cartoons showing how the people of culture and refinement were being treated like dogs who are watching for a crumb that falls from the table. I have seen some of the most inhumane pictures in the month of August, Iflis. As a member of a category I was entitled for the whole month to one- eighth of a pound of bread, and my sister likewise. Our head deaconess was treated in the same way. We were doing charitable work, too, but all that had no influence ; and the fact that we were trying to get food into Eussia, and they Icnew that we were cabling, and all that, did not weigh with them at all. We were simply put in tlie same category. We ought to be starved out. Senator Wolcott. Let me ask j'^ou : Suppose a workingman living in Petrograd had, by his hard labor, saved enough to buv himself a little home, and lived with his wife and children in his home, which he had been able to buy by hard labor and saving all his life, what class would he have fallen in? Mr. Simons. If he had worked in a factory and was a member of the factory unit in the so-called workmen's book, with his portrait in it, that came in under the Bolshevik regime as a substitute for the passport; he would usually be considered as a workman, and under the present Bolsheviki would not be molested because of owning property. Senator Wolcott. Suppose he was not working any longer? Mr. SiiroNS. If they had suspicions that he had a bourgeois spirit and ideals and wanted to wear a white shirt and to use certain things that we people of refinement are accustomed to, he might fall into disgrace with them. Senator Wolcott. He would be marked for starvation, would he? Mr. Si:mons. Well, now. that is hypothetical. Judging from what I have seen there, I would say that they would mark him. I think so. Senator Wolcott. When a man is marked for starvation, are his wife and children in the same category with him, under their way of reforming the world ? Mr. Simons. You are speaking in a general way. There are ex- ceptions over there. I know of many cases where even people of the third and fourth categories, by properly manipulating the subway resources, have been able to get almost everything they wanted. The Bolsheviki official is just as weak to accept bribes as the officials Tvere under the old regime, and if you have enough monej' you can have almost anything you please ; and if you find that you are listed to be arrested and killed, if you have enough money your life will he spared. I have had such cases under my observation. Money talks, over there. Senator King. By confiscating property have the}' been able to get money to pay their men and soldiers and officials? Mr. SisroNS. I am not informed as to how much real money they got into their hands. I understood that when they rifled ever so many safe-deposit vaults there was a great disappointment. They did not find all the gold they expected to get. Senator King. They are using paper money almost exclusively? Mr. Simons. Yes ; but they were after gold. Senator King. Has the population of Petrograd and Moscow been largely reduced by reason of the terrorism and starvation? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 135 Mr. Simons. The last I heard was that Petrograd, which used to have — I am speaking now of the period under the great war — a population of over 2,000,000, and it got up to about 2,300,000, as I recall, has dropped down, so we are told, to 600,000 or 800,000. Senator King. Up to the time you left ? Mr. Simons. Up to the time I left. Senator King. Could you witness a great reduction in the popu- lation ? Mr. Simons. Why, I noticed this, that we had very few of the middle class left, and of the so-called aristocracy hardly any. At that time they were making arrangements to have the working class enter the palaces and mansions and the fine homes and apartments. The president of the northern union came out with a very red-hot proclamation — I think it was in July or August, 1918 — in which he began by saying, " The English have a saying, ' My house is my castle.' " That was his theme. Then he used a good deal of inflam- matory language, and upheld to the hoi poUoi, the proletariat of Eussia, to take what belonged rightfully to them. All property belonged to the proletariat. It was the blood of their forefathers and fathers and brothers and themselves that had paid the price for it, and now they should take what belonged to them; and he closed his proclamation — I am only giving you this as I have it in my mem- ory — by saying, " Yes ; my house is my castle, and the Eussian work- ingman is going to defend it with a gun." Senator Nelson. Are Lenine and Trotsky Yiddish? Mr. Simons. Lenine is from a very fine old Eussian family, so we are told, and is intellectually a very able man. A fanatic, he was called the brains of this movement. Trotsky is a Jew. His real name is Leon Bronstein. Senator King. Why are they so bitter toward religion, especially the Christian religion ? Mr. Simons. There is a gentleman here in America who last night called on me. Dr. Harris A. Houghton, I think is his full name. I knew him out in Bay Side when I was the pastor of that church. He called on me last night. He is a captain in the United States Army. 1 had not seen him for six years. He asked me whether I knew any- thing about the anti-Christian element in the Bolshevik regime. I said, " Indeed, I do. I do know all about it." He said, " Did you ever come across the so-called Jewish protocols?" I said, "Yes; I have had them." " I have a memorandum," he said, " and last win- ter after much trouble I came into possession of a book which was called ' Eedusti, anti-Christ.' " Now, Dr. Houghton in the mean- time had investigated this. He had come into possession of this book, which is quite rare now, because it was said that when the edition came out it was immediately bought up by the Jews in Petrograd and Moscow. That book reflects a real organization. That book is of some consequence. But the average person in official life here in Washington and elsewhere is afraid to handle it. Houghton says that even in his intelligence bureau they were afraid of it. Senator King. Tell us about the book. What is so bad about it? Is it anti-Christian? 136 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Simons. It is anti-Christian, and it shows what this secret Jewish society has been doing in order to iiiake a conquest of the world, and to make the Christian forces as ineffective as possible, and finally to have the whole world, if you please, in their grip; and now in that book ever so many things are said with regard to their program and their methods, which dovetail into the Bolshevik regime. It just looks as if that is connected in some way. Now, I have no animus against the Jews, but I have a great pas- sion for truth. If there is anything in it, I think we ought to know. The man who wrote it is considered a truth-loving man, a man held in the highest esteem by the authorities of the Russian Orthodox Church. Senator King. Of course, that book or any teachings in that book would not appeal to the Letts or the Chinese coolies or the German soldiers, or to some who are controlling these Bolshevik mo^'ements. What I am trying to get at is. for my information, why Bolshevism is bitterly opposed to all sorts of religion or sacraments of the church — Christianity; because I suppose they recognize that Christianity is the basis of law and order and of orderly government. I was Avon- dering if you had discovered why they were so bitter against Chris- tianity, and if you found that all the Bolsheviks were atheistic or rationalistic or anti-Christian? Mr. Simons. My experience over there under the Bolsheviki regime has led me to come to the conclusion that the Bolsheviki religion is not only absolutely antireligious, atheistic, but has it in mind to make all real religious work impossible as soon as they can achieve that end which they are pressing. There was a meeting — I can not give you the date offhand ; it must have been in August, 1918^ held in a large hall that had once been used by the Young Men's Christian Association in Petrograd for their work among the Rus- sian soldiers. The Bolsheviki confiscated it ; put out the Y. M. C. A. In that large hall there was a meeting held which was to be a sort of religious dispute. Lunacharsky, the commissar of people's en- lightenment, as he was called, and Mr. Spitzberg, who was the com- missar of propaganda for Bolshevism, were the two main speakers. Both of those men spoke in very much the same way as Emma Gold- man has been speaking. I have been getting some of her literature, and recently I have been very much amazed at the same line of argu- mentation with regard to the attack on religion and Christianity and so-called religious organizations. Senator King. She, is the Bolshevik who has been in jail in this country and who will be deported as soon as her sentence is over ? Mr. Simons. I do not know as she will be deported. Senator King. I think she will be. Mr. Simons. She ought to be put somewhere where she can not issue any more of that literature. Lunacharsky and Spitzberg came out with pretty much the same things that she has been saying and printing. This is one of these theses : "All that is bad in the world, misery and suffering that we have had, is largely due to the supersti- tion that there is a God." Senator King. I noticed in j^esterday's paper that in their schools the children are being taught, wherever they have schools at all, positive atheism. Did you verify that? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 137 Mr. Simons. Lunacharsky, as the oiRcial head of the department of education, commissar of the people's enlightenment, said, " We now propose to enlighten our boys and our girls and we are using as a textbook a catechism of atheism which will be used in our public schools." Yet he had the audacity to say : " We are going to give all churches the same chance." And a priest replied to him, saying: "Then you ought not to put your catechism of atheism into the schools." Senator King. Did you find, then, that atheism permeates the ranks of the Bolsheviki? Mr. Simons. Yes, sir. And the anti-Christ spirit as well. Senator Nelson. In this book that you refer to is there anything that goes to show that this Bolshevik government of Russia are sup- porting, directly or indirectly, this book of protocols ? Mr. Simons. Before answering that question I should like to see that translation, because I do not know how this thing has been done. (A pamphlet was handed to the witness.) Senator Nelson. You have seen the original book? Mr. Simons. Yes. Some very finely educated Russian generals of note have told me that they considered this as an authentic thing, and thej' say the marvelous part of it is that nearly all of that is being executed under the Bolsheviki. Senator King. Before you leave that, one other question: I have seen a number of translations — have seen the Russian and the trans- lations of what purported to be decrees or orders of some of the so-called Soviets, in effect abolishing marriage and establishing what has been called " free love." Do you know anything about that? Mr. Simons. Their program you will find in the Communist Mani- festo of Marx and Engel. Since we left Petrograd they have, if the newspaper reports are to be relied upon, already instituted a very definite program with regard to the so-called socialization of women, each woman from 18 to 45 being obliged to appear before the com- missariat and be given, nolens volens, a man with whom she shall live. Senator Nelson. In marriage? Mr. Simons. You can call it marriage or whatever you want to call it. I have seen a number of people over there under the bol- shevistic modus operandi. One was an American. He married a Russian girl. He was married in the commissariat and had to an- swer a; few questions and sign his name, and she signed her name, and among other questions that they asked were these : " How do you propose to be married?" "How many children do you propose to have ? " And things of that kind. And then later he came to our headquarters and we married the couple there in Rus- sian and English; and other cases have come under my observation. But what they are doing now I am not in a position to say, authorita- tively, except what has been in the papers. Senator King. Doctor, you have read and heard of and come in con- tact with the I. W. W^.'s of this country, and their destructive creed, their advocacy of the destruction of our form of go^vernment. I will ask you whether or not, from your observations of the Bolsheviki and the I. W. W., you see any difference? 138 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Simons. I am strongly impressed with this, that the Bolshe- viki and the I. W. W. movements are identical. Zorin told me, the commissar of the post and telegraph Senator Oveema^^ He had been an American? Mr. Simons. He had been eight years in New York, and knew some of our leaders here in our own Methodist Church. Maj. Humes. Had he been naturalized in this country? Mr. Simons. He had not; no. But he said he had been eight years in New York, and had been in religious disputes with some of our own leaders. .Zorin said to me, " We have now made our greatest acquisition, Maxim Gorky, who used to be against us, has come over to our side. He is now with us and has taken charge of our literary work. You know we have conquered Russia. We next propose to conquer Germany and then America." Senator Nelson. A big job. Senator King. Do you know to what extent they sent out their representatives in the surrounding countries of Europe, giving them money with which to carry on the propaganda of Bolshevism? Mr. Simons. We had heard again and again that they had been sending out sums of money into different parts of Europe, and when nobody except people of the diplomatic class were permitted to send out anything at all they were sending, day in and day out, from Petrograd over to Stockholm, and over to Copenhagen, large bags. Now, what those bags contained we can not say with any surety, but it is suspected that those bags contained very likely Bolshevik literature, and perhaps money, and perhaps also valuables which were being confiscated, because many of the rare old jewels and historic things which have been kept intact for decacles in the past, and so on, have disappeared and no one knows where they are. Senator King. One other question : Did you see any coordination, if I may use the term, between the German troops, after Germany sent troops into Eussia, and the Bolshevik troops, in the Bolshevik government ? That is to say, did you find that they worked together ? Mr. Simons. I was not in a position to follow that up, but I have heard that it is true. I have heard that from Eussian officers and members of the military mission ; and they used the same kind of literature in both camps. Senator King. Did you learn whether or not the Bolsheviki aided the Germans as against the allies, surrendered them their guns and munitions, and some of M'hich they had been accumulating in the Eussian Army to be used against the allies, including the United States? The point I am trying to get at is, did any of the munitions that the Eussian Army possessed when, through the action of the Bolshevists, the armies were disintegrated fall into the hands of the Gertaians ? Mr. Simons. That statement has been made. I do happen to know this, that came out while I was passing from Stockholm. A man who had been in the military mission at one time and was at last working with the war council at Petrograd, told me what they had discovered on a Eussian battleship in the Neva ; that the ship had the archives, so called, of the Eussian Navy, showing where the forts and fortresses were, where the mines were laid, and the whole naval posi- tion with regard to Eussia ; and that there was found a letter which • BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 139 had been signed by Trotsky to the effect that under certain circum- stances the archives of the Russian Navy would be turned over to certain German officers. Senator King. Well, Doctor, I did not care for hearsay. What I had in mind was what you Imew personally. Mr. Simons. We knew that they were preparing millions of rubles for propaganda purposes in China, for instance, in India, and in other parts of the world. Senator King. South America? Mr. Simons. That appeared in their daily press. That was well known. They made no secret of that. Senator King. For the purpose of destroying all other govern- ments and bringing them under Bolshevism ? Mr. Simons. Yes, sir; and putting all other institutions out of commission that stood, if you please, for the class that they wanted to destroy. Lunacharsky and Spitzberg said in that meeting, and they sent it out in their proclamations, " The greatest enemy to our proletarian cause is religion. The so-called church is simplj^ a camouflage of capitalistic control and they are hiding behind it. and in order to have success in our movement we must get rid of thp church." Now, a frank statement like that seems to me to indicate their antireligious and anti-Christian animus. Senator King. Then, would this be a fair statement, from your knowledge of Bolshevism, that any persons in this country, mis- guided or sinister, who get up in theaters or other places on the lec- ture platform and advocate Bolshevism or defend it or apologize for it, are first approving the course of the Bolshevists in disintegrating the armies, to that extent making the cause of our Government and of the allies in defeating the central powers more difficult ? It would have that effect. The effect of their conduct would be an indorse- ment of their course? Secondly, an indorsement or appi*oval would be the indorsement or approval of a course of a party that stands for the grossest kind of materialism and atheism, and is against marriage, against the right of property, against the democratic form of gov- ernment, such as that which we have, and against the civilization which has been builded up under our form of government ? Mr. Simons. Yes, sir. Senator King. Bolshevism stands for all those things? Its apolo- gists are our enemies, enemies to our country and to our form of Government and to civilization? Mr. Simons. Whether they know that they are enemies, or they have no clear notion as to what the American spirit means, I think it is safe to say that they are mush-headed and muddle-headed. Senator Nelson. Are you acquainted with Albert Rys Williams, who has issued that pamphlet? Mr. Simons. I know him. Senator Nelson. Have you met him in Russia ? Mr. Simons. I have met him in Russia. Senator Nelson. Can you tell us about his activities and whom he associated with there? Mr. Simons. I do not know whether it would be wise for me to say what I did see. I am not sure whether he is an American citizen. I should first like to know whether he is an American citizen. A gen- 140 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. tleman came up to me Avhen I spoke before the preachers' meeting in Philadelphia and said that he had learned that Williams was not an American. If he is not, then I am free to speak. Maj. Hu^iES. I maj' tell you that he was born in this country. Un- less he has renounced his citizenship he is an American citizen. Senator Overman. He is distributing tliese pamphlets on the East Side of New York where Bolshevism has been nourished ? Mr. Simons. Yes. Senator Overman. And you were approached l\y this Yiddish fellow with this catechism in his hand i Mr. Simons. AYell, I only wish to saj' this, that if he is an Ameri- can citizen I should like to show him the courtesy due one of my com- patriots, and I do not want to say anything in your presence until he has had a chance to speak for himself. Senator 0^■ERMAN. He may be able to speak for himself. Senator King. Was he associating Avith the Soviets over there, and making speeches for tliem ? Mr. Simons. We knew at that time that he was not only very sym- loathetic with the Bolsheviki, but he was helping them in many ways. We know that ; and he was embarrassing our own embassy and con- sulate in a very effective way. Senator Nelson. Perhaps we had not better go into it further now. but we .would be glad to hear you later on this subject. Senator King. Just one other question. I will ask you whether or not you noticed any difference in the personnel of the soviet after Lenine and Trotsky got control; that is to say, when Lenine and Trotsky came into poAver the Soviets existed, and as I understand it, many of the soA^ets Avere elected by the people and the representa- tives of the Soviets were fair representatives of the people. Now, AA'hat I am trying to get at is, after Lenine and Trotsky came in, whether or not the personnel of the Soviets changed. My informa- tion is, and I want to knoAv Avhether it is correct or not, that they would frequently send out from Petrograd and Moscoav their tools, and they would supersede the Soviets in various administrations and put in men who shared the views of Lenine and Trotsky. Mr. Simons. Yes ; that was a well-known fact. That came under our observation again and again. Senator King. So, then, Avhereas the soviet in the beginning might be called a fair representative of the people, noAv it is merely a tool of Lenine and Trotsky and the BolsheAdk administration ? Mr. Simons. That is correct. I happen to know that shortly be- fore I left Eussia fully 90 per cent of the peasants were anti-Bolshe- vik, and it Avas said by people qualified to judge of the situation over there that fully three-fourths of the workmen Avere anti-Bolshevik, and they were hoping that Bolshevism would soon be defeated. Senator Wolcott. I want to ask you. Doctor, if during the noon hour you will refresh your recollection and be prepared when we meet again to give us a list of all the commissars that you knoAV or did know, with their correct names and their assumed names and the nationality of each indicated ? Make up such a list, in so far as your memory can carry you. Mr. Simons. I think I have mentioned the names of those that I really know. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 141 Senator Wolcott. None outside of those? Mr. Simons. There were minor officials. Senator Wolcott. But you can add to them any others you may remember, as you think over it. (Thereupon, at 1.30 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee took a recess until 2.30 o'clock p. m.) AFTER RECESS. The subcommittee met at 2.30 o'clock p. m., pursuant to the taking of recess, and at 2.40 o'clock proceeded with the hearing of Jtlr. Simons. TESTIMONY OF REVEKEND MR. GEORGE A. SIMONS— Resumed. Senator Overman. Doctor, I understood you to say that you be- longed to the Northern Methodist Church ? Mr. Simons. The Methodist Episcopal Church North. Senator Overman. As contradistinguished from the South? And you were head not only of your mission over there but you were the head of an educational institution, as I understand it? Mr. SuroNS. Yes, sir. Senator Overman. What was the name of that? Mr. Simons. We called it the English School of the American Church. That was one name, and we also had a theological seminary located there. Senator Overman. You had a regvdar curriculum and faculty ? Mr. Simons. Oh, yes. I hope that I will not be misunderstood with regard to the facts that came out in my testimony concerning the Jewish element in this Bolshevik movement. I am not anti-Semitic and have no sympathy with any movement of that kind, and some of my best friends in Eus- sia and America are Jews, and as I have been moving around making the matter clear before large audiences in churches and factories, many Jews have come up and have thanked me for having said what they regarded as true, and they assured me that the better class of Jews — and there are hundreds of thousands of them in America — would stand shoulder to shoulder with the Christians in fighting the red flag. Senator Overman. I understood that all the time you were speak- ing of what is known as the Mr. Simons. The apostate Jews. I only wish to be properly quoted, because I should not like to offend those fine American citi- zens who happen to be Jews, for they are just as good morally every way as we Christians are. Senator Overman. I think our newspaper reporters will make that understood in their reports, that you are not speaking of anybody but the apostates. Mr. Simons. There are hundreds of rabbis who will help us in this matter. I thank you for permitting me to clear that up. Senator Wolcott. Do you have any names to add to the list I asked you for? Senator Overman. There is a lady here who has a complete list of all those names. 142 BOLSHEVIK i-BUi-AUAJMUA. Senator Wolcott. And giving their nationality, and where they are from? Maj. Humes. I think so. Senator Wolcott. All right; we will get it from some other wit- ness. Senator Overman. Did you see this list of names that Mrs. Sum- mers handed in? Mr. Simons. I have seen at least four different lists, and the first that came out I have in my possession here. This came out about August, 1917, and was widely circulated in Petrograd and Moscow [reading] : Real name. 1. Chernoff Von Gutmann. 2. Trotsky Bronstein. 3. MartofE Zederbaum. 4. Kamkoff Katz. 5. Meshkoff Goldenberg. 6. Zagorsky Krochmal. 7. SuchanofC Gimmer. 8. Dan Gurvitch. 9. Parvuss Geldfand. 10. Kradek Sabelson. Real name. 11. ZinovyefE Apfelbaum. 12. Stekloff Xachamkes. 13. Larin Lurye. 14. Ryazanoff Goldenbach. 15. Bogdanoff .Tosse. 16. Goryeff Goldmann. 17. Z\yezdin Wanstein. 18. Lieber Goldmann. 19. Ganezky Furstenberg. 20. Roshal Solomon. And then the last one did not change his name. That is the first list that we had. Senator O^'erman. Do j'Ou know how many of those came from America ? Mr. Simons. I do not. I have not investigated. Senator Wolcott. That is the list of men who were oiRcially con- nected with the Bolshevik government? ' Mr. Simons. When this statement came out it was suggested that '• These are the men who are now working against the provisional Government with might and main and to bring in the Bolshevik rule." Other lists followed. Senator Overman. Why do you suppose they wanted to change their names? Mr. Simons. Soon after the outbreak of the war there were many people in Russia who had German names and who had them changed to Russian names, because- there was a strong anti-German move- ment, and they were very much discriminated against, and to have a German name was in fact to be insulted almost anywhere. It took some time before, on the whole, that feeling subsided. When the Russian revolution came along there was none of that to be seen any more, and some of these people took their names back, changed them back from the last form to the old German form ; but when the Bol- shevik movement came on we noticed that there were ever so many people who were Jews and had real Jewish names, who were not using them. They had assumed Russian names. Now, there may be two or three explanations given for that. One that has been offered now and then is as follows: Some of these men had two or three passports. You could get a passport if you needed it. from certain agents in Russia, and we were told that even in New York City there were certain people who were dealing in Russian passports. We knew that there were such people in different parts of Europe, es- pecially near the German-Russian border, and the Austro-Hungarian- Russian border, who made a regular business of selling or loan- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 143 ing out Eussian passports. A man would take a passport like that, and then he would use that particular name. Now, that is one explanation. Another explanation given is that among the real Eussians there would be an antipathy against the Jew, and a man having a real Jewish name would be discriminated against. Then there is another reason given by some of our friends who are always up in the literary world in Eussia — and one is a famous editor. These have said that perhaps the psychology of it could be stated thus : We want to make this thing appear as a purely Eussian thing, and if our real names, which ai'e nearly all Jewish names, ap- pear, it will militate against the success of our experiment in social- ism and government. People — millions of real Eussians — will say '• That tiling is not Eussian. The names all show that." Senator Overman. Did you know Trotsky? Mr. Simons. I did not know him. I have been quoted in the papers as having had conversations with Trotsky and Lenine, and having shown them our discipline. I do not know how that story ever be- came current, because I never said such a thing, never wrote it, and never dreamed it, but the newspaper men will sometimes imagine things. Senator Overman. Did you hear him speak? Mr. Simons. I have not. Senator Overman. He did not change his name? Mr. Simons. His name is Bronstein. Senator Nelson. He is Yiddish ? Senator Overman. Is he one of these Yiddish Jews? You call them Yiddish instead of Jews, and I want to distinguish. Mr. Simons. When we speak of the lower East Side, we are think- ing of hundreds of thousands of people who are speaking and read- ing several other languages as well as Yiddish. I might mention this, that when the Bolsheviki came into power, all over Petrograd we at once had a predominance of Yiddish procla- mations, big posters, and everything in Yiddish. It became very evident that now that was to be one of the great languages of Eiis- sia ; and the real Eussians, of course, did not take very kindly to it. Senator Nelson. Now, I should be glad to have you describe the Bolshevik plan and system of government, their scheme and plan of government, and as they proclaimed it and outlined it to the people. This is the second time I have asked it. Senator King. I want to ask, for my own information, do you mean as they idealize it or as they apply it ? Senator Nelson. Both. I want it so far as the written documents are concerned, and as they apply it, both. Mr. Simons. So far as the mechanical part of their government is concerned, I think they have been quite consistent in carrying out that end ; and as far as their proclamations have been concerned, we regret to say that they not only consistently carry most of them out but put in a lot more than was bargained for, if you please, and to that extent that all kinds of atrocities and cruelties were committed under the authority of this or that decree or proclamation. Senator Nelson. What I mean is, what is the plan and scheme of government that they offer to the people ? Outline their constitu- tion. 144 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Simons. It is, as you have seen in most of the papers here, a government that is to be, first, last, and all the time, predominantly a government of the industrial workers. It is to be a government of the so-called " workmen's councils," and it is a government of the proletariat. ISIany of their phrases they have taken from the communist manifesto of March, and one in particular, " a dictator- ship of the proletariat."' A Bolshevik official would be asked, " Well, how about liberty?" The chances are that he would answer as Lenine and Trotsky did on several occasions, '' We do not believe in liberty. We believe in the dictatorship of the proletariat." Now, when I ha^ e mentioned that, Senator, I have given you, if you please, the heart of their government scheme, and everything moves around that. The other part is quite, to mj' way of thinking, of little conse- quence — the machinery. They have what they call 'the soviet govern- ment, built up on the lines of a social democratic representation, excluding, of course, everybody that is not Bolshevik. Or if he is not Bolshevik, if he consefits to work with them and to just submerge his own political opinions, well and good. He can hold office. In fact, we know tliat right in Petrograd and Moscow there were hundreds of men, scores of them, like myself, who were not Bolsheviks, that had been in certain ministries under the old regime, and they had con- tinued under the provisional government, and in order to save their own lives and the lives of their families and to have food and com- fort and what not, and be protected, they remained in office, although for a time some of them had held out in wliat was called sabotage. I knew some of these men and some of the things that we were able to do. Favors that-Avere shown us as an American institution were made possible through men who were anti-Bolshevik, but were in the Bolshevik government; and if you will allow me to go off on a tangent — it has come to my mind while I am speaking at random — some of these men have told me, "We are staying in office in the hopes that one of these days Bolshevism will weaken and we shall be able to play the Trojan horse trick. They still had the hope that something like that would happen — either the allies would come in and do something or something else would happen — and then they would be there. As a matter of fact, one of the greatest men of Kussia, with whom I have had a good deal to do — he was formerly an editor of the journal that was considered semiofficial — told me shortly before I left, " Strange to say, I have been trying to get to Kiev all these weeks, and I have had to go through more red tape than under the old regime, and in their so-called department for in- vestigating the character of the applicant, I found the same officials seated at the desks as under the old regime. I recognized them and they recognized me and they smiled." Now, they were not Bolsheviks -at all. I knew it. I had occasion to get a certain permission prior to leaving Russia, and it was after the regular hours and I rushed into that one ministry and. lo and behold, I found one of the most active of the anti-Bolslieviks holding a prominent position there, and he said, "Why, I will get that through for you," and he did. He said, " You know I am not Bol- shevik. I have been trying all these months to get out of Eussia." So there are hundreds of them. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 145 Senator OvEEistAN. What is the character of the nionev thev issue there ? Mr. SiMoxs. They have jiow been issuing hirgelv small currency, which is stamps. That [indicating] is a 1-kopeck stamp. On the other side it says, " To be used on a par with metal money." Then they have what they call " kerenki," little bits of paper' about an inch and a half or 2 inches square, without any registration num- ber, simply " 20," and then a little .statement to the effect that it is to be honored as legal tender, and then the other denomination is " 40 " — stamped 20 rubles and 40 rubles kerenki. It became almost valueless and the people would not accept them any more. Perhaps, Senator Overman, the committee would like to know what happened to us as we tried to get over the border, with regard to our money. The ruling of the Bolshevik government Avas that no one leaving Eussia. even though he were a foreigner, had a right to take more than 1,000 rubles with him. The old money had largely disappeared, but still could be bought at a premium of 10 rubles on a hundred. So a couple of weeks before we left 1,000 rubles of the old money would cost 1,100 rubles. Senator Kixg. That is the other way, is it not ? Mr. SiMOKS. Xo; wait a second; it was 20 rubles on a hundred. So I bought 1,000 rubles of old Russian money, Catherine bills, those famous old bills with Catherine's portrait invisible — you would have to hold it up to the light and then you could see it; they are very rare now, but by paying a premium of 20 rubles you could get them — I bought 1,000 rubles' worth and paid 1,200 rubles in kerenki. Also for my sister I tried to get the same amount. When we reached the Russian-Finnish border, we were held up by a Bolshevik official, who took out his own pocketbook, opened it, and began to count out in kerenki 2,000 rubles. They made a very thorough search of my sister and myself, such as had never been made under the provisional government, or even under the old regime, and they discovered that we had this amount. They wanted me to sign up on certain blanks, and what not, and when they discovered that we had 2,000 rubles of good old Russian money the officer began to count out the kerenki and said to us, " You can not take out that old money. That is against the law." I said to him, " Is not that regular Russian money ? " " Yes, it is ; but we can not let you take it out, and here you have 2,000 in kerenki.'' I looked at him — he was a young man about 20 or 21, and looked like a rogue — and I said, " Young man, I have been told by Zorin, the Commissar of the Post and Telegraph, that if any disagreeable things happened to me on the border, I might telephone or telegraph him and he would straighten things out." He then grew pale, and telephoned to a gentleman higher up, who was on the next floor, and said that he had a difficult case here, and this was an Ameiican clergyman who had 2,000 rubles in Russian money, which he said he could not take out, but then this clergy- man had said that Zorin was going to come to his assistance if there • was any trouble; and quick as a flash he took back his kerenki and he says, " You can have your money." Senator Ovebman. How much in our money is this stamp ? Mr. Simons. The Russian ruble when h.A. wc were there was worth 10 cents. We could get 10 rubles for $1. 85723—19 10 146 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGA^^^DA. Senator Xelson. In normal times how much was it I ]Mr. SiMuNs. A ruble was abont 51 cents, so we roughly speak of a half a cent for a kopeck. Senator Xelson. There are 100 kopecks in a ruble '? Mr. SuroNS. Yes. Senator Xelson. A ruble is in round numbers a half a dollar? Mr. SiiiONs. Yes. It is now worth about 10 cents or less. Senator Overmax. How much is that in our mone}', that kopeckf Mr. SiJioNS. Well, that would be about one-twentieth of a cent. Senator King. The Bolshevik government has issued a large amount of paper money, has it? Ml'. SijioNs. Yes; very much. Senator King. Going into the billions of rubles ? ]Mr. SiJioNs. Yes. sir. Senator Overjian. Is it a misdemeanor or felonj- not to take that money? Suppose a man declines to take it? ]Mr. Simons. Yes; they have decrees, I understand, to that effect. The peasants got so disgusted with them that they would not t.ike them any more. But it was no use ; they were obliged to, and that of course put up the prices of commodities very much, a pound of but- ter selling for a hundred rubles. Senator Wolcott. Was there any attempt made by the leaders of this Bolshevik movement to spread in a systematized waj' these immoral ideas to which you referred this morning ? Mr. SiJioxs. It came under mj' observation that often in an avowed way, quite a self-evident way, immoral forces were being encouraged. I will try to be guarded in my remarks, knowing that there are ladies here. Senator Overman. Had we not better take that question up later and ask the ladies to retire ? Senator Wolcott. The doctor knows what he wants to say and he can say it. IMr. Simons. Let me use a concrete case. I will try to say the thing in a way that will not be offensive to anybody. A few days before I left, the president of our Ladies' Aid Society, a scholarly woman who has been a teacher for more than 25 years in one of the famous imperial institutions, called on me. I will not give you the name of the institute because I would like to reserve that for some other occasion, as I do not want this to get into the press and back to Russia. She said^ bursting into sobs, " You know what a fine big building we have. I want you to tell the women of America this," she said with much emotion, as she buried her face in her hands. '• I am sorry I lived to witness all this." I said. " This is so distress- ing to you that you had better not try to tell me. Write it out and send it to me some time." But she said, '" No ; I must tell you." She said, " On the first floor of our spacious institute, which used to be a palace, you know those large rooms that we have on the first floor. These Bolshevik officials have put hundreds of red soldiers, sailors, and marines of the red army and the red navy and given orders that in the other half of the same floor the girls of our institute should remain, girls who are from 12 to 16 years." This affected her so much that she burst out into tears. " I wish I had died before I witnessed all this. But I want you to tell the women of America." BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 147 Senator Wolcott. Just a moment. That was not the doing of just an irresponsible crowd of soldiers, or of a soldier mobi That was the arrangement, do I imderstand you tc]oay, of the Bolshevik officials ? ' Mr. Simons. That came under their admiiiistration. Senator King. Of course, that meant that these poor girls were left to the brutal lust of the red guards ? Mr. Simons. You can draw your own conclusions. Senator King. Was there any doubt about that, that it was the purpose of it ? Mr. Simons. I have seen so much of it that I would have to say yes to what you ask. Senator King. Is there any doubt of it? Mr. Simons. No doubt in my mind. I am a little distressed here because of the presence of ladies. Senator King. You are stating it in a proper way. There is noth- ing improper in stating that you have observed brutality and bestiality. Mr. SiJioNS. They are the dirtiest dogs I have ever come across in my 4.5 years. They are so nasty that I can not find words to express mj feelings. Some people have asked me if I was not exaggerating, and I tell them no, to go over there and see with their own eyes. Some of our own people are there as witnesses. Well, she then went on and said, " But that is not all. The other day the assistant of Lunacharsky, who was the Commissar of the Peo- ple's Enlightenment, happened to be with a group of our girls from our institute in a movie on the Nevski Prospect, and he turned around to those little girls of 12 and 15 and 16 years and said, ' Lit- tle girls, where are your bridegrooms? ' And they flushed and said, ' We have no bridegrooms.' ' Why don't you go on the Nevski Pros- pect and do as the prostitutes are doing and get yourself one ? ' " Excuse me for repeating these words. Senator King. As far as I am concerned, I think that individual acts would be material onljr as they reflect the conduct of the whole organization. I would not want to blame the Bolsheviki for the misdeeds of any individuals. If they are the acts of the individuals it would not be right to blame the Bolsheviki for that, but if those acts are the acts of the entire organization, or supported by the organization, that would be relevant. Do you get the distinction ? Mr. Simons. All right. I can only give you concrete examples. The tenor of the whole regime, of course, has been quite immoral. There is no getting away from that. Senator King. Well, to be frank, do the Bolshevik guards and the Bolshevists, the males, rape and ravish and despoil women at will ? Mr. Simons. They certainly do. We happen to know that the Lett regiment which Trotsky has been courting assiduously for months refused to go to the front, and remained near the Tsarskoe Selo Vogzal, or railroad station, and were there living on the fat of the land, and the sanitar for that regiment — I will not mention his name as he was a personal friend of mine and I must not get him into trouble — reported these things to me, and he said that when there was a scarcity of bread in town — many of us had not had bread for weeks — they were having 2 pounds a day, three days l)?fore 148 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. Trotskj' came, and they,' were told. " You will also have pancakes, 2 pounds of bi'ead arday. and extra flour; and then when Trotslrp comes there is lioino- tf be an extra celebration," and they did have it. And then he said " Everythini;- in Petrograd belongs to you." I hate to say it, but their boast was that they could have all the women they wanted, and they could break into the houses with impunity. .Senator Ki>(;. Did they pay the soldiers large sunis of money to keep them in the army I Mr. SiJio^'S. The reds were being given an extra wage. I under- stand, and were shown extra favors. Senator King. Senator Wolcott asked you about their propaganda. Do j'ou know what efforts they made to extend their propaganda into other countries '. ilr. Simons. The statement was made again and again and vouched for by people of high standing in Russia and over in the Scandi- navian countries, to the effect that down in Leipzig they were printing Russian money for the Bolshevik government. I have not been able to get any substantiation for that. But I got this from a man who was in the military mission of one of the allies, and he said that 10,000,000 rubles had been printed in Leipzig by order of the Bolshevik government, for progapanda purposes. Senator King. Do you know of people who were in Russia going into other countries and engaging in Bolshevik progapanda? For instance, John Reed; do you know of his having been there? Mr. Simons. Yes. Senator King. Do j^ou know whether he came to the United States and engaged in Bolshevik propaganda ? Mr. Simons. I have not investigated that. Senator King. Did he come to the United States ? Mr. Simons. He came to the United States; yes. Senator King. Do you Imow a woman who calls herself ^liss Bryant? She was his wife? Mr. Simons. I know of her. Senator King. Was she in Russia, and did she and Mr. Reed asso- ciate with the Bolshevists? Mr. SiitoNs. They were reported to be very close to them, and were spending a great deal of time in the Smolny Institute. Senator King. Did you know that? Mr. Simons. That was generally known in Petrograd. Senator King. How long did you know of their being there? Mr. Simons. I could not answer that off-hand, because I did not have any particular interest in following them up, and did not know that they would figure in this thing. Senator King. Is she the woman who spoke in Poll's Theater under the name of Miss Bryant ? Mr. Simons. I understand she is the same woman. Senator King. Do you know whether Mr. Reed is still in this country ? Mr. Simons. I understand so. Senator King. Major, he is under indictment, is he not? Maj. Humes. Yes, sir. Senator King. He was there connected with the Bolsheviki? BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 149 Mr. Simons. He was persona grata with the Bolshe\'ik .govern- ment to the extent that they wanted to make him their representative here in Kew York. Senator King. By the genuine Americans who were there, Avas lie regarded as an American or aa a Bolshevik? Mr. Simons. As a Bolshevik. We had a number of those Bolshe- vik sympathizers there, and we thought ot them as — let me use the proper expression — mush-headed and muddle-headed. Senator Overman. Do you know of anybody being sent to this country by the Bolsheviki for propaganda purposes ? Mr. Simons. I have no direct proof. Maj. Humes, Doctor, do you know whether or not any of these Americans were exercising the rights of Russian citizenship and are exercising the rights of Russian citizenship under the constitution of Russia? Mr. Simons. I can not speak as an official investigator, but it has been brought to my attention that some of those men who were over there had Russian passports and also American passports. Maj. Humes. I call your attention to a section of the constitu- tion Senator King. You mean the Bolshevik constitution? Maj. Humes. The Bolshevik constitution. [Reading:] Basing Its actions upon tlie idea of solidarity of tlie toilers of all nations, tlie R. S. F. S. R. grants all political rights of Russian citizenship to foreigners, who live upon the territory of the Russian Republic, are engaged in productive occu- pations and who belong either to the working class or to the peasant class that do not exploit the labor of others. Is that the provision of the constitution that makes it possible for American citizens to go over there and participate in the Russian Government as Russian citizens and exercise all the rights of citi- zenship ? Mr. Simons. I should say so, without being unfair to any of my compatriots. One case was brought to my attention within the last six months, when an American was seriously thinking of becoming a citizen of the ^o-called Bolshevik Russia. I do not want to mention his name, though. Senator Wolcott. You do not know it as a matter of fact? Of course, ii you know as a matter of fact you would be glad to tell his name, I suppose. Mr. Simons. If it is desired, I could tell you in executive session who he was. Senator Wolcott. If I knew that there was such a man who was desiring to acquire citizenship with that outfit, I should be glad to tell it. If you are only informed of it, that is another matter. Mr. Simons. I will tell you in executive session who it was. Senator Kiia!. Then, if we determine it is proper for the record, it will go in. Mr. Simons. I have pretty good proof that there was some con- nection. Maj. Humes. Is there any formality required in order to acquire Russian citizenship? The constitution automatically, apparently, forces it on residents in Russia. Mr. Simons. I have not seen the operation of that, at all, and do not know the modus operandi in actual operation. 150 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGAXDA. Senator Kix<;. You kne^v Mr. Albert Rhys Williiinis there, who spoke with IMrs. John Reed ? Mr. Simons. Yes. Senator King. Do you know whether he was participating in any meetings Mith the Bolshe-^iki ? Mr. Simons. Yes, he was; he was taking part in their meetings there. He -nas reported first in the jpapers as having taken part. Senator King. Was he making speeches in favor of Bolshevism, in their meetings, or combating their views ? Mr. SiJioNs. Certainly not combating. He was heart and soul with them. I met him a number of times in our embassy and also in our consulate. When I happened to express myself in a very strong way against the Bolsheviki, he was on the other side. Senator King. Defending them? Mr. SiJiONS. Speaking in very tender terms of them. Senator King. Do you know how long he associated with them there ? Mr. SiJiONs. I think he was associated with them almost from the incipiency of that movement. Senator King. Did he pretend to be a Red Cross representative ? Mr. Simons. No; he Avas a journalist. But there was another Wil- liams who re^Dresented the Christian Herald. I should not like to have him taken for this one. He spoke in our church once. He is a fine Christian gentleman, 100 per cent American. I hope no one will confuse the two. Senator King. Did Mr. Albert Rhys Williams tell you that when he left there he was coming back to the United States, or did you learn from him in any way that he was to return to the United States? Mr. SiJiONS. The last time I met him was in the embassy, and things Mere then topsy turvy. My recollection is that he was going back to the front to investigate things. That is as I recall. Senator King. Do you know when he left ? Mr. Simons. I do not. Senator King. Do you know about his landing in San Francisco? Mr. Simons. I do not. Senator King. Do you know the character of literature that he brought with him? Mr. Simons. I understood that lie brought some literature over which was partly in Russian, partly in English, and it was Bolshevik literature, supporting the soviet government. Senator Overman. Did Raymond Robins participate in any of these Bolshevik meetings? Mr. Simons. I do not know. He is spoken of very highly by the Bolshevik leaders. Senator Wolcott. They liked him. did they? Mr. Simons. Well, judging from some of the things said concern- ing him, he was reputed to be the best American of all. Senator King. Give the names of some other Americans over there that you know of who affiliated with the Bolsheviki. Mr. Simons. I do not know whether it would be fair to answer the question offhand, because of that expression " affiliated." Senator King. I will withdraw that question. I would not want to do any injustice to anybody. Do you know of any Americans over BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 151 there now, or those that may not be Americans but -who are now in here apologizing for or speaking for or carrying on any propaganda for the Bolsheviki ? Mr. Simons. I reserve my answer to that for executive session, for 1 should not like to be quoted as having Senator Overman. We have had some trouble about giving names. Perhaps we had better reserve it for an executive session. Senator King. I want to say tliat, as far as I am concerned, these hearings shall be absolutely public, and whatever you tell us, I would feel that it ought to be made public after you have verified it, because everybody ought to know just what this committee does. But I am speaking for myself. I withdraw the question now. Maj. Humes. With reference to the treaty between the Bolshevik government and the German Government, was tliat treaty ever published in full in the Bolshevik papers, so that the people of Eussia could know all of the facts in connection with that treaty I Mr. SiMOxs. The statement was made again and again by well- informed people in Russia that the treaty had not been fully pub- lished, ancl that the Eussian translation which came out was a very poor piece of work. And then it was said that another translation would be made. But even then it was an open question whether or no the full treaty had been made public. It always came out that Lenine and Trotzky had kept certain things secret. What those things were we never learned. Maj. Humes. Do you know the capacity in which Albert Ehys Williams came to this country from the Bolshevik government? What is his capacity to-day in this country ? Mr. Simons. I could not add any word from personal informa- tion, but from what I have found in the press and what I have heard from certain people who claim to know — I have been investigating this thing — he is a self-confessed representative of Lenine and Trotsky in this country. Maj. Humes. And came over to organize a representative informa- tion bureau in this country, did he not, in behalf of the Bolshevik government ? Mr. Simons. I understood that he had work of that nature to do. Senator Overman. Is that the man who spoke here? Maj. Humes. Yes. Senator Nelson asked you a few moments ago with reference to the form of government, in regard to the representation. Is the representation in their Soviets and their several bodies proportioned uniformly over the coimtry, or do they discriminate in different districts ? Senator Nelson. He has not answered my question, yet. Maj. Humes. No; I realize that. Senator. Mr. Simons. Why, it came out again and again that they were putting in dummy delegates and controlling certain places by send- ing down their own Bolshevik agitators, and what not, and thus suppressing an anti- Bolshevik movement, which seemed quite immi- nent in certain parts of the so-called Bolshevik country. We hap- pen to know that there were villages in and around Petrograd and Moscow — I have talked with a lot of people who had instant infor- mation on this — where the people were anti-Bolshevik, but that the 152 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Bolshevik authorities had a way of manipuhiting things so that everything would look, at least on paper, as if the Bolsheviki were ruling everything in sight. But, as a matter of fact, there were scores of villages which would not even let a Bolshevik official come into the precincts of the village. They had machine guns on either end of the main road which would go through the village. Now, I have spoken with people who came from the villages. "We had churches in some. They said that they had guards watching day and night, and the moment a Bolshevik hove in; sight the}- would kill him. And they had a regular system by which they were keep- ing the Bolsheviki away. Senator King. As a matter of fact, up to the present moment the Bolshevik government is merely a military dictatorship under the rule of Leniiie and Trotsky? Mr. Simons. Yes. And they are using their dictatorship to put the proletariat in harmony with the communist manifesto in order to please the hoi polloi. Maj. Humes. The point that I was raising is, is it not a fact that the representation in the old Russian soviet was based on 1 to each 125,000 people in the cities, while the representation is 1 to 25,000 people in the provincial districts and the less thickly popu- lated districts? Mr. Simons. I have not gone into that. Senator Xelson. Well, the Russian farmers are settled in villages, mostly ? Mr. Simons. Yes; as a rule. Senator Xelson. And their village communities, or mirs, as I be- lieve they call them. Mr. Simons. Yes. Senator Nelson. And they own the land, do they not; the mir owns the land? ^Ir. Simons. Yes; and it is parceled out. Senator Nelson. Parceled out for use from time to time? !Mr. Simons. Yes. Senator Nelson. Now, each of those mirs is supposed to have its own soA'iet system of government, to elect a local soviet council, is it not? ]Mr. Simons. That is the scheme. Senator Nelson. That is part of the scheme. And the same thing takes place in cities or wards or sections of cities, in proportion to population ? They Iuia'c also local Soviets I Mr. Simons. Yes. Senator Nelson. And these local so\iets send representatives to the general soviet assembly. Mr. Simons. Yes. Senator Nelson. And that constitutes the soviet government? Mr. Simons. Yes. Senator Nelson. A good share of the farmers or the peasants, we Diight call them, are not in this soviet government; that is, I mean, the Bolshevik soviet government? Mr. Simons. I can not tell you what percentage of the villages are Qot talring part in that Bolshevik government, in the Bolshevik BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 153 territory. But it is generally stated bj' people Avho know something about the Russian situation, and nearly all of us Americans who came out about the same time are a unit in saying, that fully 90 pvr centof the peasants are anti-Bolshevik. From that you would con- clude that they would not' take part in the Bolshevik go\'ernment. And another statement made — I think 1 made it this morning — is that at least two-thirds of the Avorkmen are ant'i-Bolshevik. Senator Nelson". Noav. have not the anti-Bolshevik forces — and in that I include the Czecho- Slovaks, the sound Russians, and the English, and French, and the Japanese — have they not practical control of the Siberian railroad as far west as Perm — west to Omsk? Mr. Simons. Well, I am not qualified to tell you how things stand there to-day. I am not omniscient. But from what I have learned all these months, I judge that they do hold control there. Senator Nelson. Have you visited the southern part of Russia, the Ukrainian country? Mr. Simons. Not recently. It was almost impossible to get down there without having influence with the leaders of the Bolshevik government. Senator Nelson. Did they have control of things in the Ukraine? Mr. Simons. You had to get special permission to go down there. There were distinguished people who sat there for months and months waiting for permission. Senator Nelson. Is not that the heart of the Russian population along the vallej^s of the Dneiper and the Don, and their tributaries ; is not the heart of the Russian population confined to those regions — and the Volga — take the western rivers, the Dneiper, and then Kiev, ■ the capital of Ukrainia, which is situated on the Dneiper? Mr. Simons. I think it might be roughly stated so, yes. Some of them claim that the heart of the Russian nation is found in the Rus- sian church ; that is where the soul is. Senator Nelson. The spiritual heart. But I mean the rural heart. Is not that in the Black Belt? Mr. Simons. I should hate to make a sweeping assertion, because in normal times we have in Moscow 1,000,000 people, and in Petro- grad 2,000,000, and there, of course, you find hundreds of thou- sands of real Russians who represent, if you please, in a very real way the heart of Russia, and most of them at some time or another came from a village. Senator Nelson. You have never carried on your operations in southern Russia? Mr. Simons. No. Senator Nelson. In Kiev or Odessa? Mr. Simons. No. I have been down among the Molokanes, or milk drinkers ; I have been familiar with that section of the country. You could hardly call that the heart of Russia, although they are. patriotic Russians. There are hundreds of thousands of Stundists, or Molokanes, and tens of thousands of so-called German colonists, but I would not like to speak of the heart of Russia as being confined to any particular territory. Senator Nelson. But Little Russia was the center of the Slav race at one time, was it not ? Mr. Simons. Yes. 154 BOLSHEVIK peopaga:n-da. Senator Xelson. They started from there, and that is the center of it. The capital was Kiev, was it not? Mr. Snioxs. That is the old historic capital. Senator Nelson. Have you ever been at Nijni Novgorod ? Mr. Simons. I have never been there. Senator Nelson. That is not a great ways from Moscow, on the upper Volga. Mr. Simons. I had to put off many of these things because of extra duties connected with our church during the great war. For almost six years I even have not been in America, and our bishop has not been over since the summer of 1913, so, of course, all those duties devolved upon me and I could not very well travel around. Senator Nelson. Then you are not able to say how all of tliat big southern part of Russia stands on this Bolshevik government? Mr. Simons. Except from certain reports. I happened to have some of my men down there and they wrote up and told me, and I might tell what came up from that section ; but there have been such kaleido- scopic changes taking place that what would hold true of September and October would not hold true of November and December, and might not hold true now. Senator Nelson. That is true. Mr. Simons. But I think it is safe to say that the Bolshevik area does not take in more than one-fourth of the real Russia. I think it is safe to say that. Senator Nelson. Does it take in anything of Russian Poland? Mr. Simons. Yes; I think it does; I think it takes all of that section there. I have not a map here, so of course, I can not go into details. Senator Overman. Do you know whether or not they are going on with their propaganda in England and Germany and France ? Mr. Simons. I have heard from men who are investigating that, with whom I have had long conferences in Stockholm and Chris- tiania, that very active propaganda is being carried on in England. Senator Nelson. Did you meet Mr. Leonard over there? He was connected with the consular service ? Mr. Simons. He was in Russia as one of the several secretaries of the Y. M. C. A., under Dr. Mott's supervision, and when the Bolshevik revolution came on, he and another Y. M. C. A. man by the name of Berry, I think, both went into the consular service. They were later arrested, and the reports we got were to the effect that they were imprisoned for almost three months, and recently they have been released and have returned to America. Maj. Humes. Senator, for your information — you wei'e asking about the propaganda — here is a translation of one of the orders of the Bolshevik government on the question of propaganda. This is the official order published December 13, 1917 [reading] : Order for the appropriation of 2,000,000 rubles for ttie requirements of the revolutionary internationalist movement. Whereas the soviet authority stands on the ground of the principles of the international solidarity of the proletariat and the brotherhood of the workers of all countries, and whereas the struggle against the war and im- perialism can lead to complete victory only if conducted on an international scale, BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 155 Tlie Council of Peoples Commlssai-ies consider it absolutely necessary to take every possible means including expenditure of money, for the assistance •of the left internationalist wing of the workingman movement of all countries ■whether these countries are at war or in alliance with Russia or are maintain- ing a neutral position. To this end the Council of the Peoples Commissaries orders the appropria- tion for the requirements of the revolutionary internationalist movement to be put at the disposal of the foreign representatives of the Coinniissariat of Foreign Affairs, ten million rubles. (Signed) Xenine. Tkotsky. Senator Overman. It would seem from that order that they ^^'ere using propaganda for the entire world. Senator Nelson. Did you say you have any other lists besides the one that you have there? Mr. Simons. No; not with me. Senator Nelson. Could you supply that other list? Mr. Simons. I will look over my papers and see if I can find it. Senator Nelson. And you can send it in to the chairman, if you can find it. Senator Overman. Do you know if any official of the Government of this country is Bolshevik? Or would you rather not answer as to that except in executive session? Mr. Simons. I have no proof. I think in executive session 1 might giv& you some information which would be helpful, at least in a way. If you could find out whether any men are out and out against the Ted flag, and if they are not, why you can form your own conclusions. Senator Nelson. You mean out and out for the red flag? Mr. Simons. I put it in the negative way. You can find out if they are really against the red flag, and if they are not, I have nothing more to sav*. Senator Overman. Are there any I. W. W.'s in Russia? Mr. Simons. I understand that quite a number of those men who came over to Petrograd soon after Trotsky arrived had been identi- fied with the I. W. W. here in America, and it is remarkable that a good deal of the literature which I have seen among the Bolsheviki in Russia is like the I. W. W. literature that I find here in English, and their tactics are pretty much the same. Take, for instance, the I. W. W. song, To Fan the Flames of Discontent, and so on. Take this red-flag hymn — possibly you are familiar with it — also The In- ternationale, as they call it; have practically all of that in Rus- sian, too. And I find that there is quite a similarity between the Bolshevik movement and the I. W. W. Senator Overman. How many verses are there in that red-flag song? Mr. Simons. The Red Flag? Shall I read it? Senator Overman. I wish you would. Mr. Simons. It is sung to the tune of Maryland, My Maryland, ar- raxiged by Finstenberg. The words are by James Connell. [Reading :] 15f) BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. The Red Flag. By James Co-nxell. The workci-s' flng Is deepest red. It shrouded eft our martyred dead; And ere their limbs grew stiff and eold Tlieir life-bhxid dyed its every fold. C'HOIUS. Then raise the scarlet standard high; Beneath its folds we 11 live and die, Thougli cowards flinch and traitors sneer, We'll lieep the red flag flying here. Loolv 'round, tlie Frenchman loves its blaze, The sturdy (Jerman chants its praise ; In ilt year. ^laj. Humes. How long had you been there? Jlr. Dex'xis. Since Xovember 1. Maj. Hx-MES. 1917? Sh: Dexxis. Yes. ^laj. Humes. In what capacity did you go to Eussia ? ilr. Denxis. I went to Eussia for the American Y. M. C. A. ilaj. Hi 3IES. How long did you continue in the service of the Y. ^I. C. A., and what did you then take up? ]\rr. Dexxis. I changed from the Y. il. C. A. to the Consular Serv- ice on April 1, as I remember the date. ^laj. Humes. AYheri' did you fii-st go in Eussia? ]Mr. Dexxis. I entered at ^"ladivostok and went across to Moscow- went south to the Caucasus — to Eostov-on-the-Don and Xovo Tcher- kask. Then Ave came back to the Ukiaine. to Kharkov, and from there to Moscow and Pctrograd. Senator Xelsox. Were you at Kiev? Mr. Dexxis. The Germans were there. Senator Overmax. Do you speak the Eussian language? ]Mr. Dexxis. I can splash about in it now. I can understand it i-easonabjy well, or could when I left there. I lived for about tvro and a half months at Eostov, a month in the city of Petrograd, three months in Xijni Novgorod. Maj. Hx':\rEs. If you arrived there in November, 1917. Avas that before the Noveml)er revolution? ^Ir. Dex^xts. That took place while we were on the trans-Siberian. _\Vc arrived in Moscow immediatelj^ following that. ilaj. Hu:wES. Will j^ou go on in your own way and tell us the conditions as you found them, and about the conditions as they de- veloped from time to time, the character of the government, the way the government was maintaining itself and perpetuating itself at the different points where you Avere residing? Mr. Dexxis. You give me a Avide-open question like that and I am liable to talk vou to death, because I can make a long answer to that. ^laj. Humes. That is Avhat Ave Avant. We want a detailed ansAver of just the situation as you found it. Ml-. Dexxis. I had a good chance to see hoAv it Avorked in the city of Eostov, because in that district Kaladines and Korniloff made their attempt. Senator Nelsox. That is in the T'kraine, is it ? i\[r. Dexxis. That is in the Don Cossack basin, a little farther east. Senator Nelsox. Is it on the Don? Mr. Dexxis. On the Don: 30 miles from the mouth of the Don Eiver Avhere it floAvs into the Sea of Azov. I Avas there when Kala- dines connnitted suicide, and I Avas there AA-hen Korniloff made his final defense of that city and it Avas taken by the Eed Guard. Senator Neesox. You call the Bolshevist government troops the Eed Guard ? ^fr. Dexxis. Yes: the reds are Bolshevik and the Avhites are to the contrary. I think the oxpei-ience there Ava- not much different fro..i elscAvhere. Thev trok the toAvn. after a AA'liile. Korniloff knew BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 16f. that he waw going to be defeated, and made a rear guard defense of the citj', and the Red army, officered by Germans, took the city. Senator Nelson. How big a phice is llost ov V Mr. De>->,^i.s. Tliree hundred tlionsiind. Senator Xelsox. Go on. Mr. Dexn:s. For four t to be inside, because armored cars with " Death to the rich " — that is, death to the '' boorzhooie " — would go around town and stop at a street corner and send a spurt of machine-gun fire up and down the side street and then go on to the next corner and do the same thing. The_y had a few mortars and cannon, and with them a few buildings Avere destroyed. In the home of one wealthy man whom I had known very casually they dropped a shell right in the middle of his dining- room table. Senator Nelson. When they were firing in the streets in that way, at the crossroads, were there people on the streets ? Mr. Dennis. Yes; I saw a number of them killed. Senator Nelson. So that they did not take any pains to avoid killing people '( Mr. Dennis. I saw a nmnber of )nen killed by the machine guns. On the fourth day the_y started something which I think was rather typical. They said that there were people in the buildings firing at these red soldiers out of the windows, and then it tui'iied loose, and everywhere it was " pop, pop, pop." I was on the fourth floor of a building, where the angle was rather high, and they could only shoot through the upper sash, but you could see those soldiers down in the street taking a pot shot at anyone in the windows of the build- ings. I saw two soldiers cash in because while they were in the street, shooting, along came one of these machine guns and stopped at the corner of the street and turned loose. Senator Nelson. And killed them, too'^ Mr. Dennis. Two of the soldiers of the Eed Guard got it, them- selves. Everj^ day and every moment, you never knew ; it would be " bang, bang " on the door, and in would come four or five soldiers who would search the place, looking primariljr for guns, revolvers, etc. We had five Englishmen and Americans and four Englishwomen there, and we had a sign on the outside of the door, '" Under the pro- tection of the British Government " ; but much good it did ! They searched us four times that night up to 12 o'clock. They accused us of shooting out of the windows. Two boys came in, about IG years old, and they placed revolvers under our noses and asked for immediate results. Senator Nelson. Have you any idea how many people they killed there at that time? Mr. Dennis. No, sir; I have not. I do not think anybody knew. There had been a number of young boys — what we would call high- school boys — there, who had joined this volunteer army, and some of them foolishly, instead of getting out of town, went home, thinking they could hide out, and a number of them were caught and killed. Senator Nelson. Which volunteer army ? 66 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ^ilr. Dennis. Koriiiloff's. Senator Nelson. He was one of the old Russian generals? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. You heard his name first in connection with Kerensky, in that affair at Petrograd. Maj. HrjiES. When you saj^ this Red Guard was commanded by German officers, do you mean by that only the higher ranking officers, or were the officers generally German? Mr. Dennis. German officers did not appear before the public. All the men who appeared before the public in Rostov were Rus- sians of one kind or another. One or two were Letts. The head man was a Lett. The Letts have been in the Russian armies in numbers. But in the hotel in which I lived there were 13 German officers. The son of the proprietor, whom I had gotten to know very well because he had lived in America for a number of years, told me that there were six of those men who could not talk Russian. I used to hear their stein songs, and there was around there a very pleasant German atmosphere. The soldiers knew they were German officers. The beggars in the street spoke German. They spoke to me in German. I had on a semimilitary uniform, and they took me for a German, and spoke to me in German — the first and only time it happened to me. Senator Wolcott. You say they would instigate stories that the civilians had fired from the windows on them? Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator 0\'eeman. That was a purely fictitious story? Mr. Dennis. I do not know, but I had the feeling" that that was told to turn loose this terrorism, because the Red soldiers believed it. Many of them went mad. Senator Nelson. What were these soldiers composed of, Letts and Russians ? Mr. Dennis. Yes ; all kinds. Senator Nelson. All kinds ? Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator Overman. It was a conglomeration of every discontented sort of man in Russia? Mr. Dennis. It was very interesting in Rostov. I have a feeling that in Russia this propaganda to take the industries and the land met with the approval of the poor people who were in bad shape due to the economic conditions of Russia. That was at the begin- ning. But within two weeks public sentiment in Rostov had quite changed. With the coming of the Red Guard the wealthy people left their homes in large numbers, put on their oldest clothes and sought refuge with people of less importance and with less pretentious homes. I knew a number who did that, and very wisely, I think. Within two weeks the feelings of the proletariat had changed, be- cause they had been promised cheap bread, but the price of bread went up, and discontent and talk began to grow. That discontent has grown constantly all over Russia since that. Senator Nelson. You were in Rostov in November, 1917 ? Mr. Dennis. I stayed there until February. Senator Nelson. Did conditions change while you were there? Mr. Dennis. No. After I left there. I have only the letters which I received from people living in the city, describing the situation, BOLSHEVIK PROPAGAISTDA. V^ . 167 and that is my only evidence as to what has happened in Eostov since I left there. These letters state that some 600 sailors took the town and looted it for a week, held it for a week, and finally the Bol- sheviks overthrew them, and then the Germans took control of the town. I left there a month or two before the Germans took control of the town. Senator Nelson. Are they in control now ? Mr. Dennis. When I left Eussia they were in control. What they have done since the armistice I do not know. While this could hot happen every day, it was rather typical of conditions in Eussia. I left Eostov with two other Americans on the private car of a man who was an adjutant of some kind for Antonoff, who was one of the big men in the Government. Senator Overman. You mean one of the big men in the Bolshevik government ? Mr. Dennis. Yes. This young fellow — it was like being with Capt. Kidd, except that you worked on land instead of sea — this fellow had an engine and a private car at his disposal, which took him wherever he wanted to go. He was going back from Eostov to Kharkov. We were glad to go with him. Trains were not running, and the conditions were terrible. For three days we went down every day and sat on the platform of his car waiting for him to' come down, because he said that he was going, and then we went back home every evening. On the last day we went to the sta- tion and were waiting for him. The station at Eostov, like all stations in Eussia, was jammed with hundreds and thousands of people. That station platform must be at least 1,500 feet long. When this fellow came down to his car he made his driver drive down the entire length of that platform, right through the crowd, a thing that would not have happened even in the days of the old regime except with some drunken individual. Then he got out and went and got on his car. He was showing off his authority. He wore two guns, a sword, and a dirk, and was dressed in an aviator's leather uniform. That seemed to be very popular with those fellows. It made them more smart than anything else they could wear. This" chap had with him a woman and two children, and they had in that car all kinds of loot. They had gone through the stores of Eostov and taken what they wanted — requisitioned it. He showed it to us with considerable pride, and the 270,000 rubles that he had. Instead of getting to Kharkov in 15 hours, we were five days with this gentleman on his car. Finally we went through a little town in the Ukraine where he lived, and he took the loot off this car and took it home and cached it in his cellar. He stayed a day there, and they had a great celebration. We did not celebrate much. At the end of five days we arrived in Kharkov. On the second day after we arrived there I saw this same chap with his woman and three cabs loaded to the guards with stuff that he had taken out of the stores of Kharkov. He waved his hand to us gaily, and went down to his car. We bade him farewell, and we were through. Senator Overman. What was he in the government? Mr. Dennis. He was some sort of an adjutant for Antonoff, ac- cording to his story. Senator Nelson. What was Antonoff's position? 168 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Denxis. He is one of the big men. I can not remember his portfolio. Perhaps one of tliese other gentlemen here can tell you. A Bystaxdeb. .He \Yas military commander. Antonoff conmianded the army which fought in Rosto^•. Ho is a ci\'ilian, but he was in command of the army. Senator Xelson. Did they destroj' much property in Rostov \ Mr. Dexxis. Not while I was there. Not a great many shells fell in the town. There was no such destruction as there was in Moscow, for the reason that the Red Guard made its defense outside of the city, and the shooting in the city was mostly done by machine guns and rifles, which do nothing more than break windows. Senator Nelsox. In what direction did Korniloff retreat? ilr. Dexxis. South, into the Caucasus; and later, up with the Kuban Cossacks, according to report. Senator Nelsox. Down on the lower Volga? !Mr. Dexxis. No; it is considerably west of the Volga. Senator Overman. Who were in command of these people; were they German officers? Mr. Dexxis. They conmianded the military end of it. They did not appear before the public. Senator Overman. Were these Red Guards drilled? Had they been soldiers ? Mr. Dexnis. They all had been soldiers; wore soldiers' uniforms. I I'emembei' I was going home one day, and I saw a boy not older than 14 or 15, a little shrimp of a lad, hammering on the front door of a wealthy man's house there, and threatening to shoot everybody in the house unless they opened on the instant. That was rather typical of the attitude to the bourgeois. But this was done for in- timidation. They levied a tax of 12,000,000 rubles upon Rostov. The first thing they did was to levy a tax of 1:2,000,000 rubles on the city. That was later added to by 10,000,000 rubles more. Senator Nelsox. Was that paid? Mr. Dennis. I think it was. I knew the managers of a large cigarette factory there, and they paid something over 900,000 rubles in cash. They doubled the price of cigarettes every time they were taxed. Senator Wolcott. Do you knoAv where that tax money went? Mr. Dennis. No, sir; I doubt if anybodj' does. There were two wealthy men in the town who Avere taxed for 1,000,000 rubles apiece. Senator Nelson. Did you go to other storm centers there? Mr. Dexnis. That was the only real fighting on any scale that I saw in Russia. I went back to Kharkov, and then to ^loscow and Petrograd. Next to Petrograd and Moscow, I presume that Kharkov is one of the largest manufacturing cities of Russia. Senator Nelson. Were you at Moscow when they had the revolu- tion ? Mr. Dexxis. I just missed that. The buildings were still burning when I got there, in a few cases. Senator Wolcott. Have j^ou any knowledge of atrocities com- mitted by the officials of the Bolshevik regime, "who were acting in what I might call a civil capacity rather than in any military en- gagement, for the purpose of terrorizing and intimidating the popu- lation ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 169 Mr. Deniviis. At Xovo Tcherkawk, in that city, a .small Kusriian toAYii, Kaledines liad his headquarters. That is' a really important part of the Don Cossack iiegion. When they knew that they were going to give up the city of Rostov, the volmiteer army got together a hospital train and took some 300 officers, went into the hospitals and rushed these wounded men into this hospital train, and ran them to Novo Tcherkask. They got them out of Rostov just about two days before the town fell. They thought at that time that Novo Tcherkask would not be taken. It was then, and the officers who were so badly wounded that they could not be removed from Novo Tcherkask — they could not get out by the railroad because the rail- roads were cut off, and any men who were so badly wounded that they could not be gotten out any other way and who remained there in the hospitals and private homes — those officers were all killed, and their bodies were left in the streets of Novo Tcherkask for four days before anj^one dared to touch them. Senator Oveeman. That is horrible. How many were there? Mr. Dennis. Between 140 and 150. That was a matter engendered by the hatred between soldiers and officers. Senator Overman. Were they Cossack officers? Mr. Dennis. No; only a few of the men who joined "Korniloff's arn(iy were Cossacks ; a very few. Senator Nelson. Did the Cossacks, as a rule, join the Red Army? Mr. Dennis. I heard of Cossacks who had been at the front who went Bolshevik. At Christmas time they sent them all home for Christmas vacation, hoping that the old people could straighten them out, because they were against the movement. Senator Nelson. The old Cossacks were opposed to the Bolshe- viki? Mr. Dennis. Yes. They owned land and had no desire to give it up. The peasants who owned land in Russia were I do not know what percentage, but a small percentage, of the peasants of Russia ; and, of course, the Cossacks who owned their land were against this. movement, naturally. Senator Nelson. All settled Cossacks owned their land? Mr. Dennis. Yes: by the Government grant. Senator Nelson. The hetman of the Cossacks did not join the Red Guard? ^ Mr. Dennis. No, sir. I do not know this as Pdo about Kaledines, but the man who took his place as hetman was later killed. The story runs that he attempted to escape and was shot. We question it very much ; but I do not know the facts. Senator Overman. Did they attempt to divide the land up amongst the people while you Avere there ? Mr. Dennis. Yes ; that was done in many cases. Senator Overman. And they took the land away from the land- owners ? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. Senator Overman. How did they divide it; do you know? Mr. Dennis. Well, there Avas no special way of doing this thing. It varied, I think, with every community or every village. Ninety per cent of these peasants, I should say — although the figures vai-y — do not own their own land, but they own it as a community, and in 170 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. many cases it got to be a quarrel between one village and the next adjacent as to which one was to get this estate which lay in between. Senator Nelson. They are all settled in villages, are they not? Mr. Dexnis. They live under an old " Bible-time " communist system. Senator Nelson. They are settled in villages and communes, and the land is owned by the village or commune ? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. They call them niirs, do they not ? Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator Nelson. The mirs own the lands and they simply appor- tion them out to the peasants: each man has his particular parcel to cultivate? Mr. Dennis. Yes; the lands are allotted. Senator Overman. Are they allotted to the individuals or allotted to the county or town? ]Mr. Dennis. You are talking about the old allotments? Senator Overjian. I am talking about the old allotments. Mr. Dennis. Yes; that is right; to the individual. Now, the ques- tion arose in many cases as to which village was to get this interven- ing land. While these people generally get along in peace, oftentimes there is a good deal of jealousy between two villages. Here is one of 15,000 people and here is one of .5,000, and the question arises as to who shall get this land in between, and in that event the village of 15,000 is likely to get it. Senator Nelson. Did the Bolsheviki attempt to disturb the old system of mir allotments? Did they attempt to break up the sys- tem of allotments that prevailed there wheie the mirs owned the land? Mr. Dennis. I believe not, though it may be; but in any investiga- tion of that kind, because the condition of things was so kaleidoscopic, almost anything you want to state about it is true, whether it is typical or not. Senator Nelson. I suppose the operations under the Bolsheviki were confined to the confiscation of land from the big landowners ? Mr. Dennis. Yes; but they also started that same class hatred between the peasants who lived upon their own land and those who lived under the comi]|une system. A number of years ago they en- deavored to get the peasants to live upon their own lands, because this system they have is like the case of a one-year tenacy in this country, where nothing is put back on the land; and in the Volga Valley, which is the richest in the world, the land had been fatmed for thousands of years, with nothing being put back on the land. Lenine started a class war between those who owned their lands that way and those living in the communes. Senator Nelson. Is this town where you saw this big riot that you have described in what they call the black belt of Eussia ? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. A rich agricultural prairie country? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. The term " steppe " there is about the same as " prairie " here ? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir; prairie. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 171 Senator Overman. What did thej do with the big merchants and stores ? Mr. Dennis. They had on paper a plan for the taking over of this land and the taking over of industry, and how it should be organized and run, but that is not so simple when you turn loose 100,000,000 people with hate in their hearts. It did not go according to the plan. They took over a lot of factories, and in most cases a lot of different things happened. Every group, every community, was a law unto itself. Senator Overman. Did they loot the stores? Mr. Dennis. Yes ; but it is not called looting. It is called requi- sitioning. Senator Overman. The soldiers had the right to requisition what they wanted? Mr. Dennis. They did, seemingly. In Nijni Novgorod the Gov- ernment officials took over all the shoe stores and clothing stores and hardware stores. Senator Nelson. Were you at Nijni Novgorod? Mr. Dennis. I lived there three months. These officials took over all those shops without compensation. Senator Nelson. That is a big city of 600,000 people? Mr. Dennis. I doubt if it is that large. It is a city of some size; between 250,000 and 350,000. No one ever knows in Eussia. Senator Nelson. That is where they hold that great fair? Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator Nelson. Do they hold it yet? Mr. Dennis. According to the soviet newspapers of Eussia, they had a magnificent fair there last summer. There was no more fair there than there is on this table. Senator Nelson. Which side of the Volga is it on ? Mr. Dennis. On the low side. The town is divided into the high town and the low town, on the east side which lies right along the river. The soviet newspapers, however, had out reports that this fair was running very successfully. Senator Nelson. Had the Bolsheviki or Eeds gotten control of the town when you were there? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. They were in possession? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. Senator Overman. Did the government undertake to run them, when they took over these stores ? Mr. Dennis. They took over these supplies and then peddled them out. You had to go to a certain commissar and get a permit to buy a certain pair of shoes, and then go and stand in line. I was told there were not more than 2,000 pairs of shoes in the city. Senator Nelson. These men who finally got the shoes, did they have to pay for them? Mr. Dennis. They bought them from the government. Senator Nelson. The government confiscated them and then sold them ? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. Senator Overman. That is a way, in addition to taxation, in which the government gets money ? 172 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Dennis. It helps. There was no thought of compensation. Of course, it was specifically understood, when they took vjver all of the land, that there was to be no compensation. Senator Xelson. How did they operate when the Soviets took over the manufacturing industries* Mr. Dennis. They just took them, with or without the consent of the OAvners. The owners did various things. I question if you covdd iind any specific case that w'as typical of all the owners here and there. Senator Nelson. They took possession, but when they took posses- sion did they undertake to operate ? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. In what manner? Mr. Dennis. Under a committee of workmen, and under the eco- nomic committee, which, besides w'orkmen, may be made up of college professors, or whoever happens to be in it. But I fail to understand, and it is quite beyond my comprehension, how the other men who have returned from Russia state that the industry' of Russia is run- ning, because it is not. My basis for the statement lies in the fact that I saw factories in three cities closed. In Nijni Novgorod, a large manufacturing town, when I left there there was only one small factory running. Senator Nelson. At what place? Mr. Dennis. Nijni Novgorod — one small factory. Senator Nelson. That is a town of half a million people? Mr. Dennis. Three hundred thousand, I think, would be nearer the facts. They had a factory there that had run at its height with 25,000 men. When I first came there they Avere running with from 12,000 to 14,000. Statistics are hard to get in Russia. Nobody knows anything accurately. The factory was closed. That factory, to my mind, is a good example of the Bolshevik methods in Russia. Senator Overman. What was that factory manufacturing? Mr. Dennis. They had manufactured locomotives, and they changed it to munitions and back to locomotives. The week I got there they demanded of their soviet a new- election, as you are supposed to do under the constitution. As I understand it, any time that you are dissatisfied with your representative of the soviet, you can call a m-eeting and elect a new representatiA'e. They demanded that elec- tion. They could not get it, so they went on a strike for a week, and finally got it, and they elected 67 per cent of the new representatives from anti-Bolshevik parties. But that is not according to the way they play the game in Russia, so that election was declared null and void, and the old representatives of the Bolsheviki held over. Across Volga River there is a pontoon bridge which they use in summer time and take up in winter, as they use the ice in winter. That bridge was not laicl for a month and a half later than usual because they Avere afraid the Avorkmen in this factory would come across the river and take the town. I have tried to go to that town and have run into a line of Red Guards hiding around in the grass Avith machine guns, who had this town surrounded, Avatching it, because they were afraid these Avorkmen were coming over. Senator 'Wolcott. I gather that the Avorkmen in this town you speak of had become disgusted with the Bolshevik croAvd? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 173 Mr. Dexxis. I should say that is exactly the state of mind of a large majority of the workmen and the peasants at the present time in Hussia. Senator Nelsox. Did there seem to be any head or system to their city government there ? ^Ir. Dexxis. So far as I could get information on such things, in talking with other men from other cities, I think they had about as efficient a local soviet in Nijni Novgorod as any place. They had three men who did some things with executive ability. Two of' these men were men of some education. One of them had been to a Rus- sian university. But in the last month I was there they fired the two top men in the soviet. One of them, who was what they call the state commissar, said that they fired those two men and put in men who were of more radical beliefs, who were of a more radical state of mind, because those men were too conser^ iitive; and that tendency, I think, can be found all over Eussia. Senator Overmax'. You say that three-fourths are against the Bolsheviki. Why do they not rise up and overthrow the Bolshevik government ? Mr. Dex^xis. One answer is to shrug your shoulders and say " That is Russia ; that is the Russian character." The Russians, Avhile they know how to cooperate in business and in cooperative societies (and they did organize long before the war and during the war in a busi- ness way), when it comes to politics are absolutely hopeless. They do not know the meaning of the word "' compromise."' If 3'ou were to gather around this table representatives of the Methodist Episco- pal Church, of the Presbyterian Church, of the Catholic Church, and of the Jewish Church, and of all the other sects that we have in this country, and ask them to form one church, you would have the same situation you would have in Russia if you were to ask these political parties to get together. Senator Nelsox. The peasants — ^that is, the real Russian peasants — belong to the Greek Church, do they not? Mr. Dennis. They do not call it the Greek Church, but the Rus- sian Church. Senator Nelsox^. I mean the Russian Church. Mr. Dexx^is. Yes, sir. Senator Overmax. Do you suppose that some great patriotic leader like Nicholas, or a great general in the army, could organize these people into an army ? Mr. Dexnis. I very much have my doubts. I like the Russian people very much — the ones that I have come in contact with I like personally very much — but if you try to do anything with them, to organize "them, you can not do it, because they will not get together. There is a saying in Russia which very plainly describes the Russian characteristics, and which is true, that any time you get three Rus- sians together you have five opinions, and I think that any man who has tried to do things with them will agree to that statement. Senator Wolcott. Then the fact that the Bolsheviki vigorously pursued their terrorism served to restrain at least 75 per cent of the people from asserting their wish in overthrowing the Bolsheviki? Mr. Dex^xis. They" very thoroughly Jntimidatecl them by standing them up against a wall and shooting them, and by imprisonment, and 174 BOLSHEVIK jmurAUAJN JJA. by a general lack of safety, and the requisitioning and taking over of houses and all that sort of thing. They had them very thoroughly intimidated. The Eussian peasant has fought again and again and is fighting against the Red Guard. Why ? On account of fixed prices for food and fixed prices on grain, at which he must sell, and because on the things that he needs to buy, which, as a general rule, he can not get because there is A-ery little of them, there are no fixed prices. The sky is the limit. I have seen at the bazaar in the city of Nijni Xovgorod the Eed Guard go down there and just take the food away from the peasants at the fixed price, which is far below the market price. They feel about this the same as the American farmer would if you put a price of '2-2 cents on his wheat to-morrow, instead of $2 — or whatever it is. Wlaen the soldiers came out to take the food there were many fights, because the peasant had been told to take his gun home, and he did, and in some cases he took a machine gun, and he had been told to use it, and had been told he was a free man ; and the peasants fought, and the Eed Guards many times got the worst of it. Of course, while it is not written in Eussia, and I do not know that they Avould agree with this at all, it would seem that there is only one rule under which the Bolsheviki work in Eussia, and that is that the end justifies the means. Senator Overjian. The whole population is a mob? It is just anarchy ? Mr. Dennis. Of course, if you are not a Bolshevik, " Get out. We will not feed you. And if you work against us, we will kill you." I can not imagine that it was any more dangerous under Ivan the Ter- rible for a man to speak openly against the government than it is at the present time. Senator Nelson. Can you give us, in brief, an outline of their scheme of government, of the national Bolshevik government; what their plan is? Mr. Dennis. The leaders of this government were advanced social- ists of the radical type and believed in going the full length of social- ism, and going it by the most radical methods, by force. Other precepts they have; that there is no such thing as private capital, or private property, and that everything must belong to the state, all land and all sources of production ; and they have had it specifically nominated in the bond that there shall be no discussion as to how it shall be done. They take these things by force, without compensation for them. Senator Nelson. Then do they follow it up and sav' how the state is to utilize this property ? Mr. Dennis. I think that on paper they had a pretty good scheme, from their viewpoint; but it is not the easiest thing in the world to organize, with a vast country and a terribly disorganized people who are amazingly unintelligent, so far as reading and writing are con- cerned. They cut themselves out a big piece of work, and they started something they could not control. When they got ready to give a man orders, they found they could not give him orders. Senator Nelson. Take, for instance, the matter of land. Their scheme was that all of the land belonged to the state, was it not, and the use of it shonld be distributed among the peasants? Mr. Dennis. Yes. sir. BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 175 Senator Nelson. And when you come to the manufactuiing indus- tries, their scheme was to take possession of them and have them operated by the government ? Mr. Deistnis. They belonged to the people, through the government. They say everything belongs to the people, because that is a more popular way of putting it. Senator Nelson. What about the banks? Mr. Dennis. Ditto. Senator Nelson. They were to be taken over by the Mr. Dennis. They were taken over. Senator Nelson. Were they to be run by the Bolshevik men ? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir; for the people. Private property goes out of the thing. Senator Nelson. There is no longer any private property ? Mr. Dennis. From which you receive an income — no. I had a very interesting conversation with the bank commissar in Nijni Novgo- rod. I think I could bust any good bank there is in this city in about a week, if they would let me run it. I do not know anything about a bank. This chap had very interesting ideas about it. Inasmuch as we know that money is the root of all evil, this chap's idea, as he ex- pressed it to nie, was to get rid of money. He said, " I hope to see the day when a chicken will cost 5,000 rubles, and that will mean that money will have no value, and we will get rid of it. We will not need any money." Senator Nelson. He would go bacli to the system of barter and ex- change that prevailed before we got any money ? Mr. Dennis. I do not think he thought much beyond the point of getting rid of money ; it is the root of all evil, tear it up, and that kind of idea. That was from a man who had charge of all the banks in his district. Senator Nelson. The money they have in circulation now is all paper money, is it not? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. Irredeemable paper money, which they are print- ing and issuing almost without limit? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. What have they done with the gold that was in the banks? Mr. Dennis. There were several gold centers. At Nijni Novgorod they had a lot of gold. I at one time knew the amount of gold in Nijni Novgorod. Senator Nelson. Did they not, as a consequence of the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, take over about $200,000,000 of gold of the towns? Mr. Dennis. I do not know. There was some talk about it, but I do not know the facts. I know they brought to Nijni Novgorod from Eiga a large amount of gold, stocks, bonds, and collateral of all kinds, brouo'ht with the German bankers who had -run those banks. Those Germans I knew personally in Nijni Novgorod, and they were sitting around hoping and praying they could get their hands on this Senator Overman. When you got your check from the United States for your salary, how did you get the money on it? Mr. Dennis. I always got the money directly. But it was possible to go out and sell it, jjecause many wealthy people who had money 176 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. hidden, who s;nv this thing coming and got tlieir money out of the banks in cash, were getting nervous because all the time they were having searches and it was possible that this money would be discovered and be confiscated, and they were very glad to exchange money for a draft on America, because it was easier to hide it. Senator Wolcott. This gentleman who had these interesting finan- cial views you speak of, the commisar of the banks, I am curious to know whether he was in a position of large responsibility. How much territory did he have under his jurisdiction where he was going to put into effect these ideas? Mr. Dennis. He was running the banks of Xijni Novgorod. Senator Woixott. That is how large a place? j\Ir. Dennis. Three hundred thousand, with a lot of big banks there, with big supplies of money. Senator Wolcott. Did he stay in that office as long as you were in the countrv? Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator Xelson. Were you in southern Russia, on the border of the Black Sea. at Odessa, and in the Crimea? Mr. Di:x>"is. Xo. sir. Senator Xeeshn. Were you on the Siberian Eailroad? INlr. Dennis. Yes; Ave went across by the trans-Siberian, going in 1)y Vladivostok to Moscow. Senator Xelson. What time did vou go in? ^fr. Den>is. The 1st of Xoveniber. 1917. Senator Xelson. I understand, now, and I want to know if it is not your information, that what I call the anti-Red Guard, the anti- Bolsheviki, control the railroads as far west as Omsk, and perhaps as far west as Perm ; is not that correct? ]\Ir. Dennis. I have only newspaper reports on that. Senator Xelson. Is not that your understanding, too? ^Ir. Dennis. Yes; from what I read. Senator Xelson. Do they not control that whole line from ^"ladi- vostok out as far as Perm, which is the largest town west of the Ural Mountains? Mr. Dennis. That might be true to-day, and to-morrow be not true, because my experience with the railroads in Russia was that you ne^er Imew. You got on a train, and perhaps you got there and per- haps you did not. Senator Overman. You did not know Lenine and Ti'otsky? ]\Ir. Dennis. Personally, no, sir. Senator Over .man. Were they men of ability, brains, and educa- tion, by reputation? yir. Dennis. Yes. sir: I should say thev were very able men and thoroughly believed that this was the way to bring about heaven on earth, and to end the ills of society. Senator Wolcott. Their route to heaven, though, seems to have been first through hell? Mr. Dennis. The route was circuitous. However, as you know from reading the Liberator, the American magazine, Mr. Lenine answers any criticism which I might make, or any other man tcstifv- iu£r here, and say.: "Of course this happened and that happened; BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 177 of course it did. We have made mistakes, but what can you expect ? Look where we are going and what we are aiming at — what we want to do ! He meets almost all those criticisms in that article in the Liberator. Senator Nelson. Their aim, theoretically at least, is a pure socialistic government, is it not? Mr. Denxis. With one class only. Senator Nelson. With one class only, and that is what they call the proletariat ? Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator Nelson. That includes the peasants and the working men, I suppose? Mr. Dennis. In Russia they would say it was rather simpler than in any other country because "they have more of the proletariat. The proletariat are the larger per cent of the people, and the so-called upper classes are a smaller per cent, and the scheme was to have only one class when they got through. Senator Nelson. They did not make any provision for what we call in this country the large body of consumers, did they? They did not have any idea on that, did they ? ^Ir. Dennis. They look upon everybody as a producer' and con- sumer and, according to the plan, everybody has plenty. There is no difference in class, no difference in caste. Senator Overman . Is any attempt made toward education ? Mr. Dennis. Yes ; they have very fine plans on paper. Senator Nelson. Was not the country invaded a good deal by German business men? Mr. Dennis. German business men and commissions were in Nijni Novgorod. I hardly ever went out of the house except some- body, paid by a German, followed me around. Senator Nelson. And the Germans seemed to have the upper hand among the Reds? Mr. Dennis. Very much so. Senator Nelson. In other words, there is an affiliation and com- bination between the Bolsheviki, the Red people, and the German people who were there in Russia ? Mr. Dennis. An affiliation to this extent. This is purely my per- sonal opinion, as is all of it, from my observation. There was an affiliation to this extent, that each group was trying to use the other group. It was not that they had any great sympathy with Germany at all, but if they could use Germany, well and good ; and Germany was trying to use them. Senator Nelson. But, I mean there were a good many German missions there, business men and spies and others that were con- stantly operating there? Mr." Dennis. Yes, sir. I was very well aware of it in Nijni Novgorod. They had large commissions there, and ostensibly these men were looking after the welfare of the Central Eiripire prisoners. That is why they were there, on the surface. They were there when I left. Senator Nelson. Carrying on the business of propaganda in Russia ? 85723—19 12 178 BOLSHE\aK PROPAGANDA. ilr. Dennis. They were. I knew of two cases where they had bought stock, and they carried the gamble through to the last minute, buying stock in industries, and buying estates. Senator Nelson. You seem to be well posted. If there is any- thing else you have not told us about this matter that you think we ought to know, or the American people ought to know, I wish you would tell us. Mr. Dennis. I do not know whether this belongs in this hearing or not, but a thing that interested me very much was to discover a number of men in positions of power, commissars in the cities here and there in Russia, who had lived in America. Senator Nelson. Who had been graduated here? Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator Nelson. Where had they lived mostly, in New York? Mr. Dennis. In the industrial centers. I met a number of them, and I sat around and listened to attacks upon America that I would not take from any man in this country ; but I took it over there be- cause I was asking favors, and I was not in a position to get into an altercation, as I did not want to get in jail. Senator Nelson. Were the men who had lived for years in this country, and had gone back there, occupying prominent positions in this Bolshevik government? ^Ir. Dennis. Yes, sir. Senator Wolcx)tt. In the main, of what nationality were they ? Mr. Dennis. Hebrew. Senator Wolcott. German Hebrews? Mr. Dennis. Russian Hebrews. The men that I met there had lived in America, according to their stories, anywhere from 3 to 12 years. Senator Nelson. You know, years ago they colonized a lot of Ger- mans over there in southern Russia. We call them Mennonites. Mr. Dennis. Yes ; we call them that in this country. Senator Nelson. Do you know what their attitude was? Mr. Dennis. I do not know what their prejudice was, but I judge that they had a prejudice, from the information I got that they at the end were pretty badly treated by the Russian Government. They were deported and sent into Siberia. Senator Nelson. They were settled there originally because they did not believe in war. They were permitted to emigrate to Russia, and were given land, and given immunitj' from military service; but that militaiy immunity was afterwards revoked. Now, were they with the Bolsheviki, or were they with the other side ? Mr. Dennis. I could not answer that question. I could only say that these men in the last year of the war, and some of them before, in large numbers, were dispossessed and sent into Siberia and put in the internment camps, because of supposedly pro-German senti- ment. Senator Nelson. They occupied that territory around the lower Don, did they not? Mr. Dennis. Yes ; there were numbers of them there, and then they were pretty well scattered. Spncitnr Nei^on. In the black belt, on the verge of the arid countrv. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 179 Senator Overman. Are these people over there, who have lived in the United States, taking part in this Bolshevik movement? Mr. Dennis. This is a thing that, in my opinion, backed up by the opinions of other Americans, Englishmen, and Frenchmen with whom I talked when we got into Moscow, and were waiting there three weeks before we got out, and comparing notes, seems more in- teresting than the fact that they are there in positions of power, that these men were the most bitter and implacable men in Russia on the progi'am of the extermination, if necessary, of the bourgeois class. Senator Nelson. They constitute the Red element, do they not? Mr. Dennis. In many cases. Senator Nelson. In most cases? Mr. Dennis. In many cases. I would not say in most, but in many. Senator Nelson. Trotsky himself came from this country, did he not? Mr. Dennis. Yes ; he had lived in this country. Senator Overman. You say they are in favor of the extermination of the bourgeois ? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. I never met a more implacable individual than a man that they called the war commissar in Nijni Novgorod. He had been in this country for a number of years. Senator Nelson. They were Hebrews that had been in this coun- try? Mr. Dennis. These men are ; yes, sir. Senator Overman. Do you know of any effort they are making to carry that propaganda to this country? Mr. Dennis. I can not go into court and prove it, but I have some very definite suspicions, and some facts which would indicate considerable; yes, sir. Senator Nelson. Give us what you have. Mr. Dennis. I believe the information on that score that I have is already in the hands of the Government, through other sources; but, going to their meetings as I have done in the city of Chicago, there is no question at all about their approval of the Russian system and of their desire to bring it to pass in this country. Senator Nelson. Are there many of that class of people in Chi- cago? Mr. Dennis. The first meeting I went to was in the Chicago Coli- seum, which was packed. Indeed, they had overflow meetings, and all the speakers had to go out and double up. Senator Nelson. And that was a socialist meeting? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. _ Senator Nelson. Publishing Russian propaganda? Mr. Dennis. A red-flag meeting. Senator Overman. Is there any affiliation between them and the I. W. W. of this country ? Mr. Dennis. As to any affiliation in fact or in organization I do> not know ; but they are absolutely affiliated, I should say, inasmuch as they are both going to the same place. Senator Overman. As they both tend to the same thing? Mr. Dennis. They both want the same thing. Senator Nelson. All aiming for the same end ? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. 180 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. By the same methods? Mr. Dennis. I see no difference between them at all; but as to whether they have any affiliation in organization I do not know. That is bound to come, I think. If the movement goes on they will get together, of course. Senator A'elson. Are they circulating much Bolshevik literature out in Chicago? Mr. Dennis. Have you seen copies of the American Bolshevik, published in Minneapolis? Senator Nelson. Yes; and I had something from that printed in the Congressional Record. ]\Ir. Dennis. That is a fair example of it. I have here some of the handbills they were distributing, which call for immediate action. Senator O^terman. Did you see that great handbill that they were sending all over the country and posting up, " The War is over, now for revolution " ? Mr. Dennis. I have not seen that; no, sir. But nothing of that kind would surprise me, after what I have learned in Chicago. Senator Wolcott. What is the seating capacity of the Coliseum? Mr. Dennis. I do not know. Several times I asked what it was, but I could not get definite figures on it. I think it runs from six to ten thousand. Senator Wolcott. At this large meeting which you attended, at which they had to have overflow meetings, did the meeting seem to be in sympathy Avitli the ideas expressed, or was it made up largely of people who were there just to look on ? Mr. Dennis. There were there a number of observers like myself, and a good many Go^-ernment observers were there, but with the first mention of the names of Lenine and Trotsky the crowd arose to its feet and applauded for five minutes. Thej' had on the wall. I re- member, a long stiip of paper containing a list of the soviet repub- lics of the world. This list was a little premature, I think. Neverthe- less it was there. It began with Russia, Germany, Norway, Sweden, and went on down through the list, and at the bottom was a large question mark, "Which is next?" And every speaker, not by actual words, but by inference, said that America w'ould be the next one; and everj' time that was done there was sure to be applause. Senator Nelson. Did you observe the character of the people there, or their nationality ''( Mr. Dennis. It was a very well-dressed, intelligent-looking crowd; not starving people by any means. Indeed, I have always maintained that Bolshevism is not a cry or demand for bread; it is a state of mind, and it must be met as such. They were a pretty well-dressed, intelligent crowd. Senator Nelson. I mean as to their nationality. Were they native- born Americans, or were they foreigners? Mr. Dennis. One could only tell by the applause when the speeches were made in the different languages, as to the predominant number of people there. We had speeches in Polish, Yiddish, and German, but when the Russian delegate got up and said, "Com- rades," which is a great word in Russia, I should say at least 70 per cent of that audience got to their feet. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 181 Senator Wolcott. Which tongue seemed to rank next to the lius- sian at that meeting? Mr. Dennis. I would say Yiddish. There was an American work- man, about 50 years old, who sat immediately to my riglit, with whom I talked a good deal; a well-dressed, first-class looking workman. It was really my first contact with that type of man, and I will tell you that I would just as willingly try to dri^e a tenpenny nail into a cement block as to try to get an idea into that man's head. I never found any greater hatred than that man had for the capitalistic class, as he called them. Senator Wolcott. Then he was of American nationality '( Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. From what you have seen since you came back, there at Chicago, j'ou would think there is propaganda going on here in this country ? Mr. Dennis. Very definitely. Senator Nelson. Bolshevik propaganda ? Mr. Dennis; Yes. Senator Nelson. As I understood you awhile ago, you found some of the very prominent men in the Bolshevik government over there that were men who had lived in this country and gone back to Eussia. Mr. Dennis. The interesting thing about it was not their promi- nence but their bitterness. Senator Nelson. They were most bitter? Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator Overman. Did you recognize any speakers of prominence at that meeting? Mr. Dennis. I beg pardon? Senator Overman. Were any of these speakers men of prominence in Chicago or in this country? Mr. Dennis. Oh, yes; all the men who have been on trial before Judge Landis spoke there. Senator Nelson. Can you give the names of these speakers at Chicago ? Mr. Dennis. Steadman, Victor Berger, and what is the man's name that begins with Er? He is a Norwegian. All the men who have been on trial before Judge Landis spoke at that meeting, and a num- ber of others. Senator Overman. There has been more than one meeting? Mr. Dennis. Yes; I have gone to some smaller meetings. Senator Nelson. They have small ward meetings, do they not, in the localities where they live ? Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator Nelson. And ha-\e local speakers there? Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator Nelson. And they are at it continually, are they not? Mr. Dennis. I think this can be proved. There are now some paid traveling speakers. The organization has a paid staff. Senator Nelson. Have you come across any of these men who have been in Eussia and have come back here and are carrying on propaganda here? Mr. Dennis. No. Senator Nelson. Are you acquainted with this Mr. Williams? 182 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Dexxis. I do not know Mr. Williams or Mr. Eeed. I have read their stuif, and John Williams'w wife's book. Senator Nelson. You did not come across them in Russia? Mr. Dennis. Both of these men had left Soviet Russia before I got in there. Senator Nelson. Do you find many native-born Americans work- ing in this propaganda here? Mr. Dennis. I am not prepared to say. I do not know the men and their history well enough to say, sir. Senator Overman. What is the meaning of the word " soviet"? Mr. Dennis. The nearest translation would be " committee," or " conference.'" '' Conference," I think, would perhaps be the nearest English equivalent. Senator Overman. What percentage of the people of Russia are educated I 3Ir. Dennis. The figures vary. The figures as to illiteracy run anywhere from 70 to 85 per cent. It depends upon what man you happen to be reading. I do not think they Imow Sinything about accurate statistics in Russia. Senator Over:man. Under the old regime, did they have any pub- lic schools? Mr. Dennis. Yes; about 5 per cent of the people, under the old regime, were permitted a real education, according to the best au- thority that I can get. There are some figures on that, which, so far as I know, are accurate enough, as to education, schools, and so forth, and how many children actually had a chance to go to school in Russia. Senator Nelson. But the Russian peasants, as a rule, are illiterate^ Mr. Dennis. Yes. I do not know of anybody who knows the situation thoroughly, who talks about the situation in Russia as a democracy. I have heaixl many people talk about it as a great de- mocracy. To my mind that is an absolute misnomer, and is not in accordance with the printed and spoken statements of Lenine and others, who ought to know wliat kind of a show they are running over there. They do not call it that. They specificallj' state that it is not a democracy. Senator Overman. Not a democracy? ]\Ir. Dennis. No ; and it is not supposed to be. It is an autocracy of the proletariat. Senator Overman. They do not want liberty? ]\Ir. Dennis. Well, they would say they did. They would not agree with that. But they want it in a way that is peculiar, accord- ing to our ideas in this country. Senator Nelson. Thev have in these different mirs or villages, and in the wards or portions of cities themselves, their local Soviets, or local councils? Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator Nelson. And they send representatives to the national soviet ? Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator Nelson. The head soviet. Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator Nelson. And that constitutes their government, really? BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 183 Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator Nelson. Of course, the general soviet has to have admin- istrative officers? Mr. Dennis. It would be democratic if the people away back in the villages and in the factories could elect and send up anybody they wanted to, but the fact remains that up to date they have not been permitted to. Thej^ have to send Bolsheviks. Senator Nelson. Or they will not be received? Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator Overman. If they elect one of their own men who is an anti-Bolshevik, what is the result? They just do not receive him? Mr. Dennis. Well, that case I spoke of in the factory at Novgorod would be typical. They declared the election null and void and held over the old representatives to the soviet. In some cases they told the people, " You must elect Bolsheviks and Bolsheviks only." Indeed, there is going to be just one class, and one party in this class. Senator Nelson. Of course it is only in the territory that the Bol- sheviki control, either permanently or temporarily, that they have succeeded in forming these local Soviets ? Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator Nelson. In the other part of Russia that is in the control of the white guard, or the anti-Bolsheviki, they have not adopted that system? Mr. Dennis. I do not know, because all the time I was there after I got in I was in soviet Eussia, and I have no information about the outside other than this information. Senator Overman. That general congress or assembly representing the government is not called the Duma now, under the new system ? Mr. Dennis. No. Senator Overman. What do they call it? Mr. Dennis. It is called the central soviet. Senator Nelson. The have abolished the legislative duma, have they? Mr. Dennis. It is very interesting to note that these Soviets all the way around will not take orders from anybody unless they want to. If it fits in with their plan, well and good. If it does not, they do not obey. It is the same way with the committee. If they do not do the right thing, they fire them and get another that will, and they get quick action. Senator Overman. Will they have a general law for the general soviet itself? Mr. Dennis. Yes; if it happens to tally with what they want to do. Of course, there has been a flood of " decrets." Every man in a town that has any power issues a decret, and sometimes they are wise decrets and looking to the best interests of the people, but at other times they are the most idealistic things you ever saw, and at other times they are perfectly wild and harebrained ; but nevertheless they are issued and plastered up on the walls of the town. Senator Nelson. Is it not a fact that the only cohesive principle there is in theii' government at present is the reign of terror they carry on? Mr. Dennis. I should say that in the beginning its power was de- rived from machine guns. 184 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Overman. Are they manufacturing munitions? Mr. Dennis. I know of only one plant that ran for a short time, but they had enough out of the supplies of old Russia to keep them going for their military operations. Of course, with this new army which they are getting I do not know what they will do. They had called five years to the colors when I left, and they were very much afraid of that army. They did not know what to do with it, whether to arm it or not to arm it. Of course, they keep the army up now, because if a factory closes down and the workmen are thrown out oi a job and have nothing to do, they put them in the army and pay them a certain amount each month. It was 400 rubles when I was in Xijni Novgorod. I think it is higher now. They supported the men and their families. That is the kind of coercion that keeps the red army together. Senator Overman. Have the Bolsheviki got woman suffrage? Do the women take part in these meetings? Mr. Dennis. I never saw very many of them in these meetings, but they have it on paper ; yes, sir. Maj. Humes. The money they pay to the soldiers simply comes from the printing press. They make money on the printing press as they need it to pay these soldiers, do they not? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. I had at one time the figures, put out by the head man of the government, of the deficit on the railroad — ^the esti- mated deficit — amounting to I forget how many hundred millions of rubles, and the amount of tlie factory and industry deficit, and so on. On the Volga River all the traffic had stopped and there were at least 200 boats, some of them passenger boats, the finest I ever saw on any river, standing idle, and the workmen with their families were living on them and being paid by the government from time to time as they could get the money down to them. Senator O^'eksian. The commerce on the river then, had practi- cally ceased? Mr. Dennis. Virtually so. It was down at the lowest ebb, on ac- count of the absence of coal or oil. The thing was petering out be- cause of no fuel. Senator Nelson. In normal times there was an immense water commerce on the Volga? Mr. Dennis. Yes; it is a great center, with vessels of all kinds there. The flour mills there were closed, and all the factories were closed except one when I left. Senator Overman. Was there any schedule on the railroads ? Mr. Dennis. It is an amazing thing that the railroad organization has kept going. The railroad guild, perhaps you might call it, has kept going against tremendous odds, and they have maintained a passenger service. The freight service is badly disorganized. In all Russia, in about 10 months while I was there, I never but once in any state anywhere in Russia saw carpenters or masons working. Never but once did I see men with hammers and nails and feaws in their hands. Senator Nelson. There was not any building going on? Mr. Dennis. Absolutely nothing. The whole thing was going to destruction. I saw a band stand being built. That was the only thing I ever saw in process of construction in Russia. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 185' Senator Overman. What are the houses of the peasants con- structed of? Mr. Dennis. Logs, where they can get them. They are fine log houses. Senator IS'elson. With thatched roofs? Mr. Dennis. Sometimes ; but log houses, well built. Senator Wolcott. Were the schools in operation? Mr. Dennis. Not during the summer, and there was much dis- cussion in Nijni Novgorod as to whether they would open this fall or not, on account of financial difficulties. ijenator Overman. Were the farms in operation, or had many of them left the farms? Mr. Dennis. I read an article not long ago in some American magazine, by an American Avhom I knew over there, in which he said that the acreage this year was about 10 per cent. That, to my mind, is not anywhere near the fact in the case. In the districts which I loiew from my personal knowledge and from information which I got in Nijni Novgorod and from information which we got from people from the other sections who came into the consulate in Moscow, 75 would be very much nearer the truth. Senator Nelson. Seventy-five per cent? Mr. Dennis. Yes. Others even put it higher than that. But in my opinion, the crops were very good. I am not a prophet, but if they had the brains for organization and could get their traffic organized so that they could distribute it, I believe there ig enough stuff in soviet Russia to feed the Russians; not well, but to keep them from starvation. Senator Nelson. What is their wheat? Is it spring wheat or win- ter wheat? ■ Mr. Dennis. Both, I believe. We could go from Nidjni Novgorod down the Volga River and up jthe Kama River to Perm, and buy white flour pretty reasonably. A friend of mine went, and got flour for 12 rubles a pood, or 36 English pounds. Senator Overman. Are these peasants most hospitable in their nature ? Mr. Dennis. As individuals; yes, sir, they are. You could buy flour for 10 rubles a pood, but they would not allow you to take it out of the city, or into a different State. You could not take it across the line. My man got back because he Avas working for an American, and mj' English friend got back because he had a British passport, but a man who lived within two blocks of me in Nijni Novgorod had the flour taken away from him. Maj. Humes. He was a Russian? Mr. Dennis. He was a Russian. It was possible for a German to go there and buy flour by the thousand poods and take it out without any difficulty. He got it out of that State, but it did not go into Germany. There was great ojDposition on the part of the people to Germany getting stuff out of Russia, and trains of cars had a wav of being sidetracked and turning up somewhere else. Senator Overman. I should think that after this war and so many people being killed, they would have a great antipathy to the Ger- mans. 186 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. Mr. Dennis. I think the sentiment of the bourgeois class could be summed up by what a man whom I knew pretty well said to me. He said : " I know it is a mistake for us to want the Germans to come in here. I know in the end we will regret it, and we would much rather have somebody else come, but nobody else will come, and it is ' any port in a storm.' If the Germans come, my life and my property will be safe." I do not blame them at all for feeling that way about it. Senator Wolcott. Is there any breakdown of the moral standards in this Bolshevik regime? Mr. Dknxis. There has been a lot of talk about it, and about these proclamations which have appeared in American newspapers, and those proclamations in two cases I loiow of were actually put up; but whether they were put up by the government or not is a very large question in my mind. Senator Wolcott. Did they purport to be official proclamations? Mr. Dennis. They were put up in the city of Samara, signed by the anarchists, and about two days later, as quick as they could get out an answer to it, the anarchists came out with another proclama- tion which they pasted up over the town, saying that the first one had not been sent out by them, but had been sent out by the enemies of the anarchists to discredit that group. I am inclined to believe that story. It was about the nationalization of women. Senator Nelson. The}^ are opposed to religion, are they not? Mr. Dennis. The Bolsheviks? Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. And they advocate a sort of what in this country we call " free love," do they not ? Mr. Dennis. I have never seen any official statement of that kind. They are opposed to religion, and were very much opposed to the Y. M. C. A., here and there. Senator Nelson. What was their grievance against the Y. M. C. A. ? Mr. Dennis. A tool of capitalism. Senator Overman. How did they feel toward the Red Cross? Mr. Dennis. All right, so far as I know. Senator Wolcott. Was the Salvation Army in Russia? Mr. Dennis. I never saw it — yes, I did. I saw two of them. Senator Wolcott. Did you ever notice any outcry against the Salvation Army people? Mr. Dennis. I know nothing about that. The two that I saw were taking care of an orphan asylum where there Avere a lot of little chil- dren. I imagine they were very glad to have them do it. The organi- zation, or lack of organization, was so very bad in Petrograd that during the last week in April, when they dumped into Petrograd the first 1,500 prisoners who came back from Germany — Russians released from the German prisons; they dumped these men into the great station in Petrograd, all of them sick, and very few of them able to walk, and there was no organization in that great city to look after those men — that was the most terrible thing that I saw in Russia. Senator Nelson. They looked starved and emaciated? Mr. Dennis. Terrible. You could not overpaint that picture. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 187 Senator Nelson. And were terribly broken? Mr. Dennis. You could not overpaint the picture of those men. The few who were able to go out came down the Nevski Prospect. Petrograd is a pretty blase city by this time, it has been through •a good deal, and it takes something to stir them up, but these men in knots of two and three would stand on the street there and beg, and they poured money into their caps — the people on the streets — but there was no organization to take care of them at all. If there ^ver was anybody who needed a Red Cross outfit, and needed an efficient one, with nurses, it was that crowd of 1,500 men. After that the American Y. M. C. A. tried to do something. I think -certain Eussian representatives wanted tlie Americans to be allowed to endeavor to go on and accomplish something ; but what they have clone I do not know. Senator Oveesiax. How is the ordinary peasant as a family man? Does he love his family and love his children ? Mr. Dennis. So far as I know, yes, sir; and I wish to say that in general I liked them very much. I do not know of any foreigner who has lived in Russia for any length of time who does not love the Russian people and their qualities. They are what we call, out in the •country that I come from, home folks, neighborly; but, of course, under these conditions, naturally, with a mob spirit turned loose in a crowd, they are a very different people. I presume that is true of any primitive people. Besides, up until August 3, when they arrested all foreigners with the exception of Americans, up to that time, outside of tfulking with men who had lived in America, I never received anything but reasonably courteous treatment, and mostly absolutely courteous treatment — warm, courteous treatment — from any Russian to whom I said merely, " I am an American." I did not have to tell him what my business was or anything about it. Senatoi' Oveeman. They did not seem to have any feeling, much, against the Americans? Mr. Dennis. Every Russian peasant, even though he does not know what America is or where it is, perhaps, has a warm asso- ciation of feeling about America — that it is a free country. Senator Wolcott. How many of these people who had come from America and were in office under the Bolshevik government would you estimate that you saw, speaking in proportion ? Mr. Dennis. That I personally saw and talked with ? Senator Wolcott. Or that you know of, either by your own observation or from those in whom you have confidence? Mr. Dennis. Our general opinion in Moscow was that anywhere irom 20 to 25 per cent of the commissars in Soviet Russia had lived in America. Senator Wolcott. Did you form any estimate as to the number in office in Petrograd ? Mr. Dennis. No. Senator Wolcott. They were not all from New York City, I take it from what you said a while ago, but they were from different parts of the United States— congested centers? Mr. Dennis. Always from industrial centers. Senator Overman. Do you know any of them that have been natu- ralized in this country? 188 BOLSHEVIlv PROPAGANDA. Mr. Dennis. Xo. At least, not one of them would say he had been. I asked two, I recall, and they said they had not. One had lived here 13 years, according to his story, and tallied English very well. Senator Xelson. Did you find them to be from Chicago, usually? Mr. Denxis. I found them to be from industrial centers near Chi- cago. One man when I bade liim good-by said, " Good-by. I will see you in about 10 years. We are coming over to America to pull off this same show." I told him I would be there. Senator Wolcott. These men who were from America who were in oiEce there were of what nationahty ? Mr. Dexnis. I beg pardon^ Senator "Wolcott. Ihese men who had been in America, and were in office over there, were of what nationality ? 'Sir. De-\nis. With ,only one exception, of my personal knowledge, Hebrew. Senator AVolcott. "\Miat nationality was that one exception? Mr. Dennis. Russian. Senator Wolcott. You said a while ago that you were convinced in your own mind that there is organized propaganda in this country to spread this Bolsheviki thing to America. In substantiation of that statement you cited this Chicago meeting Avliere you lieard the doctrine preached and well received. Have you any other substantiul facts that point to the theory that there is an organized propaganda here, financed here, to spread this soviet government to America ? Mr. Dennis. Xothing that I thinlv is not already in the hands of the Government ; nothing new. Senator Overman. Have you made any report to tire Department of Justice or the Secretary of State? Mr. Dennis. When I returned to America I came here to AA'ashing- ton and rejjortod to the consular staff. Senator Overman. To the State Department? Mr. Dennis. To the State Department. I was then interviewed by a number of men in various departments, the Russian war board, and one or two others. Maj. Miles, I believe, was one. Senator 0^t5rman. Will j'ou send us a copy of that report? Mr. Dennis. I made no report at that time. I have just returned to America, and came directly here from Xew York, about Novem- ber 1. Senator Overman. You made no report about tliis organization over here? ]\Ir. Dennis. Xo, sir: I knew noticing about it at that time. Amer- ica had been a closed book to me for one year. Senator Wolcott. You saj^ the information that this propaganda is afoot in this country is now in the hands of the Government ? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir: such information as I have. Senator Wolcott. Is the information you refer to now as being in the possession of the Government information that you yourself gave or discovered? Mr. Dennis. Only in part. Some of it I ran across, and some of it I got from those who were investigating the situation. Senator Overman. Maj. Humes, have you investigated that matter with the department ? Maj. Htjmes. I have been in touch with all of the departments. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 189 Senator ^WoLcoTT. We will eventually get that information, will ■we? Maj. Humes. I think so; yes, sir. Senator Wolcott. I think we should ha-^e it, because that is the main thing we are after. 'Senator Overman. That is \\ hat we are investigating, principally — the basis of this investigation. Speaking from your own knowledge and from general information, what do you think is the extent of this propaganda in this country? Mr. Dennis. AVell, there are undoubtedly people who are inter- ested in spreading this propaganda, who have a pretty fair organi- zation that extends from New York to San Francisco. They have divided this country up into sections and put it out under various leaders to handle. Senator Overman. Do you know, fronv what you have heard, whether it is growing? Mr. Dennis. No; I do not. I should say the growth of it would depend in large part upon the industrial conditions during the com- ing months — employment or unemployment. Senator Wolcott. Did you come across Col. Thompson in Eussia ? Mr. Dennis. He had left before I got there. Senator Wolcott. Did you come across Mr. Eaymond Kobins 'i Mr. Dennis. I met him a couple of times in Moscoav. Senator Wolcott. In what capacity was he acting at the time when you met him ? Mr. Dennis. The only one that he had — as the head of the Red Cross. As far as I know, that was the only official position he had a,t any time. Senator Wolcott. Did you have any opportunity to observe his relations with the Bolsheviki? Mr. Dennis. Very little. I talked with him at length one day concerning the Bolsheviki there, because he had been in Moscow longer than I had. I got there after the revolution. I missed that, and I A\-anted to know more about it. Senator Wolcott. Was his attitude one of sympathy with it or otherwise? Mr. Dennis. As I understood him at that time, his attitude was that of — well, sympathy is not exactly the word — recognition of them, because they were the people who were in, control; not because of what they stood for or their methods, but because they were the people in control. I remember specifically that he used the phrase, " They are the people Avith the guts." Senator Nelson. And they ought to be recognized, because they were in control. Was that his theory? Mr. Dennis. Yes ; they were the only people who seemed to have an organization and the ability to run the show. Senator Nelson. And, therefore, he was for them? Mr. Dennis. Therefore, as I understood it, he was in favor of dealing with them as representing Eussia. He knew them all and was on speaking terms with them and kept in touch with them — the leaders of the movement. He was in Moscow at that time. Senator Overman. Did you know Trotsky? 190 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. Mr. Denxis. 'No, sir; I never met him personally. I beard him talk once. Senator Otermax. Where did you hear him talk, at Petrograd or Moscow ? Mr. Dexxis. Moscow. As I judge the situation, Trotzky was the firebi'and of this group, taking the three of them, Lenine, Tchitcherin, and Trotslfy. Senator Nelson. Who was the firebrand? Mr. Denxis. Trotsky. He is a highly emotional chap. Senator Overman. Does he make a good speech? Mr. Dennis. Yes; he makes a very fine, fiery speech, and he is a chap who believes, as we understood the situation, in carrying this thing through according to plan with absolute implacability toward the bourgeoise group. From what I iinow of the situation, this story that appeared in the American newspaper a while ago, that there had been a break between Trotsky and Lenine, sounded quite reasonable, because it was Trotsky who, when they arrested all the English, French, and other allies, Americans excepted, wanted to hold them as hostages. Senator Nelson. Did he want the Americans arrested, too ? Mr. Dennis. I never knew. I never could find out why they were not arrested. Senator Nelson. Were the Americans arrested ? Mr. Dennis. Individuals were in outlying cities, like Mr. Eoger Simmons, at Vologda, Mr. Leonard and Mr. Berry, at Tsaritzin, and there may have been others. Senator Overman. When did you leave? Mr. Dennis. On September 2. Senator Overman. Why did you leave? ]Mr. Dennis. It was getting a bit warm. All the allied powers had withdrawn from Russia, and there was no place to go. Senator Nelson. Which way did j'ou come out? Mr. Dexxis. I was with Dr. Huntington, who testified here, I believe. We were all on the same train. Senator Wolcott. You all came together? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. Did you have to go around by Sweden? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. We wanted to go to Archangel, but you could not get across the Volga. There were some tentative advances made to the German Government to issue us a safe conduct across the Baltic to Stockholm. Senator Nelson. The Germans were in possession of Finland at that time? Mr. Denxis. Yes. We asked them to guarantee us a safe conduct, and we waited for some time, and finally the Diet of Finland guar- anteed us a safe conduct through Finland. Dr. Huntington must have told you of our experience in Petro- grad; how they nearly refused to let us go, and refused to respect the orders of Tchitcherin, Lenine, and Trotsky. Senator Overman. That man Tchitcherin is a Russian, I suppose? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. Senator Overman. Where is he from? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 191 Mr. De]^nis. He is a man of some rank ; a nobleman by birth, I have forgotten what; a well-educated man, and a man of wealth at one time ; a very able gentleman. Senator ISTelson. The last legation to get out of there was the Norwegian Legation, and I was reading an account last night in the newspaper of how long it took them to get out of Petrograd over to Finland. They were held up time and again on the journey. Evi- dently they wanted to bleed them and get money from them. Mr. Dennis. I do not know how successful they were with them. We were bled. Senator Nelson. They were not bled, but they were delayed. Mr. Dennis. We paid and got out. Senator Wolcott. Did you ever come across Dr. Harold Williams over there? Mr. Dennis. Dr. Harold Williams ? No, sir. The only Williams I knew was not a doctor, but was a banker from Waterloo, Iowa ; the only man by the name of Williams I ever met in Eussia. Senator Nelson. Were there many Americans in business over in Eussia ? Mr. Dennis. I heard much of other nationalities. I should think there were a few. The Germans were in business very largely, but there were very few Americans in Eussia. Senator Nelson. Did you notice the agricultural implements that they had on the farms there? Were they American implements or were they German ? Mr. Dennis. I do not know, except that the International Har- vester Company has been in Eussia for a long time, and has a great plant and has a big business there. Mr. over here can tell you more about that company's establishment than I can. Senator Overman. Did they shut up their shop ? Mr. Dennis. It Mas running when Mr. left. He can tell you more about what happened than I can, because it was his busi- ness to run that factory. Senator Overman. Maj. Humes, have you any more questions? Maj. Humes. You have spoken about the terrorism toward the bourgeoisie. Was that terrorism confined to the bourgeoisie, the so- called upper classes, or was it directed against some groups of the proletariat as well? Mr. Dennis. It was at tijnes directed against the proletariat when they did not follow orders, when they went out to take food at fixed prices. There have been some very good sized fights between the peasants and the red guard over that food question, because the peasant was not to pay taxes; and personally I am quite convinced that when the peasant got land, the man who actually got the land was through with the revolution right then and there, and if they had let him alone he would have been all right. But what can he buy? What can he do with his money when he does get money? And they come out and take the food supplies away from him at fixed prices away below the market price. He is very bitter against it. I have had a number of them tell me themselves what they thought about it, and that the old days were better. Senator Overman. This red fiag, is that on their public buildings, and on the streets, everywhere? 192 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Dennis. Oh, yes. Senator OvER:^rAX. Just a pure red flag; nothing on it? Mr. Dennis. Sometimes it had mottoes on it, but they varied. I do not know this, I do not laiow that anybody does, but I felt quite sure that if the Eusisan people, supposing that the peasants are 80 to 85 per cent of the population, were let alone to organize their form of government, it would be an advanced socialistic govern- ment, because of the fact that 95 per cent of them have lived all their lives in this conununistic form of government. But they would do it by peaceful means. It is the object of the Mensheviki, as of the Bolsheviki, to establish a socialistic form of goverimient, but the one wants to do it by the most drastic revolutionary methods, and the other by evolution. Of course, in industry, the fact that all industry has gene to pot is due to a number of causes; lack of ability to get raw materials, first, and secondly, lack of trained brains. Senator Nelson. And a disinclination of the men to work, too? Mr. Dennis. Yes. The Russian people very much love to talk, and this gives them a free opportunity. Senator Nelson. Then the system will break down from three causes, lack of raw materials, lack of competent men to run it, and disinclination of workingmen to take hold and work? Mr. Dennis. Yes; and lack of ability of the right juan, when they find him, to give orders to anybody and be sure that they will be obeyed. I have known a c:isp where the trained men have gone back, nt the request of the government, and endeavored to do this and that on the railroads and in the factories, and they would put in a certnin reform and want to change a certain thing. It did not please the workman. All right, that settled it. The government has not the authoritj' to go down there and do it, unless it is with the machine gun. Every man is a law unto himself, in this dispensation. Maj. Humes. Under the constitution, all agricultural implements become the property of the state. What has been done in carrying that provision into effect? Mr. Dennis. I du not kn( w, hut I would say nothing had been done. There is an amazing number of things on pa]oer that ha'^c never leen canied into effect, l)ocause they have no authority or organization. Russia is more like a kaleidoscope than anything else. It switches all the time, and it is a wise man who can plot the thing, and make a blue print of it. Maj. Humes. You say that the Russian people like to talk? Mr. Dennis. Yes. Maj. Humes. Does the soviet government permit, either in the public press or in public meetings, free expression of sentiments other than in support of their own activities and government ? Mr. Dennis. At the present time there is no public press except the soviet press. There are only Bolshevist newspapers at the present time. Maj. Humes. And they will not allow the publication of anything else but Bolshevik newspapers ? ]\Ir. Dennis. No, sir. There is nothing else. Senator Nelson. They do not know anything about freedom of the press, then ? Mr. Dennis. Oh, no ; oh, no. Senator Nelson. Or free soeech? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 193 Mr. Dennis. I can not imagine that any discerning- Senator Nelson. Or anything but Bolshevik speech ? Mr. Dennis. I can not imagine that any Russian would attempt to speak in public attacking the Bolsheviki. His shrift would lae very short. Senator Nelson. It is strange that when they come over here they advocate free speech and freedom of the press, and complain against our Government, and they will not apply that paregoric over there. Mr. Dennis. They will undoubtedl3' have free speech when all their people are one class, and all are Bolshevik. [Laughter.] Senator Nelson. Yes. Senator Wolcott. I have heard this story, and I am going to tell it to you and see if you know of any similar occurrence, and see if you think it ties in with the general attitude of mind of the Bolshe- vik masses over there. At an election I understand they vote by holding up a hand, and on one occasion an election was held and the Eed Guard was on hand and the people were asked, "All in favor of such and such a thing, hold up their hands." Of course, most of them put up their hands. Then the question was put, "All who are opposed, put up their hands," and three or four very unwise crea- tures put up their hands in opposition to the Bolshevik side of this election, whereupon they were hauled out by the Eed Guard and shot. It was, therefore, a unanimous vote. Mr. Dennis. Yes. Senator Wolcott. Did you ever hear of any such occurrence as that? Mr. Dennis. I have no evidence of that. Oh, that is quite pos- sible. Why not? Senator Wolcott. You think it would not be a surprising thing if that is done under this regime over there ? Mr. Dennis. Why, no. I know of things which are quite equal to that — ^actually know of them; but not exactly like that. Maj. Humes. What instances do you know of, similar to that? Mr. Dennis. For example, they have in Eussia an extraordinary commission for the suppression of the counter-revolution, sabotage, and — what else is it ? — speculation, which can do anything it pleases ; which has absolute authority. They arrest people, try them, convict them, execute them, and do not have to say a word to anybody about that. You take a country overturned like that, and turn loose a lot of men, some of them honest, some of them dishonest, some of them able to see things clearly, and others fanatics of the wildest type, and put them in there with that power, and what will happen? It is bound to happen. • Mr. Leonard, who is here, will tell you mterestmg things about that extraordinary commission and their doings. Senator Nelson. You are acquainted with Mr. Leonard? Mr. Dennis. Yes, sir. Mai. Humes. Mr. Leonard is here to-day. Mr. Dennis. I just happened to hear his voice over here, so that I knew that he was here. -^ ,t.. Senator Overman. Is there anything else, Ma]or, with this witnGSs E Maj. Humes. I believe not. We are very much obliged to you, sir. 85723—19 13 194 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. TESTIMONY OF ME. ROBERT F. LEONARD. (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) Senator Otekmax. Where are you from? Mr. Leonard. St. Paul, Minn. Senator Overman. How long is it since you returned from Eussia? Mr. Leonard. I left Petrograd on the 16th of November, and returned here on the 3d of December. Senator Overman. You came out with this colony? jNIr. Leonard. No, sir. Senator Overman. What were you doing in Eussia? Mr. Leonard. I went over there with the Y. M. C. A. to work with the soldiers in the field, and then was with the Eussian soldiers at the front, and then acted as vice consul. Senator Overman. You worked on the front with the soldiers, did you ? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir ; for quite a time after the revolution, from August until November, 1917. Senator Overman. Did you observe in their army this Bolshevik propaganda going around among the soldiers? Mr. Leonard. One could not help noticing it. The soldiers were selling all their things to the Germans. They were selling machine guns for 5 rubles. They would sell a 6-inch gun for a bottle of brandy, and then start for home. Senator Wolcott. Were they selling any American-made ammuni- tion to the Germans? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Wolcott. And American-made guns? Mr. Leonard. Yes; and you would see a lot of Winchester am- munition over there — U. M. C. Senator Wolcott. That is, munitions and guns that we, in America, had made and sent to Eussia ? Mr. Leonard. It was practical}}' all, though, munitions that had been bought before we entered the war. That is, it was bought on contracts between American manufacturers and the Eussian Govern- ment, and was not furnished by our Government. Senator Wolcott. It was their property? Mr. Leonard. It was their property. Senator Wolcott. And not the property of the American Govern- ment? Mr. Leonard. No. Senator Overman. Did you have any speakers or preachers there? Mr. Leonard. We had them at the Kiev front. They sent 400 men through the lines who could speak the Eussian language, and who were to conduct propaganda. Most of the propaganda came from behind the lines, though. There were, of course, many who were fraternizing on the front, but the most deadly propaganda was that carried on behind the lines. Senator Nelson. Among the soldiers ? Mr. Leonard. Among the soldiers ; yes, sir. Senator Nelson. Who were the men who were carrying that on? Mr. Leonard. Members of the Bolshevik party. Senator Nelson. Were there any men who had been in this coun- try? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 195 Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelsox. Do you knoAv many of them? Mr._ Leonard. No, sir ; I did not. Maj. Humes. Do you know who they are, so that you can hand the committee the names of any of them ? Mr. Leonard. No, sir; I would not know that; and when I say that, it is not of my personal knowledge. I talked with some soldiers who told me that some of these agents had been in New York for a year or two. Senator Nemon. Where were you when the Kerensky government came into being? Mr. Leonard. I was out in Siberia at that time. Senator Nelson. You were in Siberia? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelson. When did you go into Bussia? Mr. Leonard. I went into Eussia in August of 1917. Senator Nelson. That was shortly before the Bolshevik govern- ment of Trotzky and Lenine came in? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelson. They came in in November? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelson. Where were you stationed then? Mr. Leonard. I was down with some of the troops not far from Kiev. Senator Nei^son. Near Kiev? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelson. Were Russian troops engaged in fighting the Germans at that time? Mr. Leonard. No, sir. They had practically laid down. A very, very small detachment had remained on the front, but there was no fighting. Senator Nelson. The soldiers had quit fighting? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. They had organized themselves to control the ap- pointment of officers and run the whole thing? Is not that so? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelson. And refused to fight? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelson. And was not that one of the main causes that led to the fall of the Kerensky government and the advance of the Lenine-Trotzky government? Mr. Leonard. The Russians now state that one of the causes of the fall of the Kerensky government was that advance that they at- tempted in June. Senator Nelson. They made a successful advance at first? Mr. Leonard. For about a day. Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Leonard. But that advance was made by a very few. The onlv forces that charged were made up of volunteer officers who took rifles and then the Czecho-Slovak troops. The others refused to ad- vance with them. In many cases they retreated, so that the officers who advanced, and the Czecho-Slovaks, were very badly cut up. 196 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. Where were you when the acute portion of the revolution broke out, in November? Mr. Leonard. I was down near Kiev, 18 hours from Kiev, with some troops. Senator Nelson. What general violence or anarchy took place there that you observed? Mr. Leonard. None took place right there. These troops were half-way loyal, and so they remained quiet; but in Kiev there were two distinct fights, one occurring some time in November, and the other, I think, was in Februar3^ Senator Nelson. Yes. Kiev is in the Ukraine country — the capital ? ]Mr. Leonard. The capital of the Ukraine, on the Dneiper River. Senator Nelson. Who were in possession of Kiev at that time, the Russian forces? Mr. Leonard. The Russian forces were in possession ; and then the first fight was when the Bolsheviki took the power, and the later fights were between — there were all sorts of fights, the LTkrainian parties wanting the independence of the Ukraine and the Bolsheviki opposing, and it was a very complicated situation. Senator Nelson. Did not the Bolsheviki stir up and help to organize the so-called Ukrainian Republic? Mr. Leonard. No, sir : I think the first Ukrainian party was a party ■■iesiring the independence of the Ukraine, and was more of the "bourgeois class. Senator Nelson. Oh, yes. Mr. Leonard. The Ukrainian movement had been fostered for the last 10 or 15 years in the Austrian part of the Ukraine, in Galicia, and after the government was crushed, the Bolsheviki sent their agents in there, and there is a very strong Bolsheviki party in the Ukraine. Senator Nelson. And you recollect that at the time the treaty of Brest-Litovsk was formed that the Ukraine had representatives there, and by the permission of Trotsky they were permitted to sign that treaty ? ]\[r. Leonard. Ye3, sir. As I understand it, the Bolsheviki did not desire their presence there, and wanted to carry out the whole thing themselves. However, the Ukrainians sent their delegation and forced — I do not know in what way, but they forced — their recogni- tion there. Senator Nelson. Where were you when the treaty of Brest-Litovsli was entered into? Mr. Leonard. Also down near Kiev. Senator Nelson. You were still there? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelson. How long did you remain at Kiev ? Mr. Leonard. I beg your pardon. I left Kiev the 1st of December, and then Senator Nelson. Were the Russians then in possession of Kiev? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. The Bolsheviki? Mr. Leonard. The Bolsheviki. Senator Nelson. The Bolsheviki had gained possession? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 19 T Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelson. Was there any bloodshed or riot when they took possession ? Mr. Leonard. There were two fights in Kiev, both of which I missed; very heavy fighting. I think the heaviest street fighting occurred in Kiev ; as heavy as that which occurred in Moscow. Senator Nelson. Between what parties, between the Reds and the Whites? Mr. Leonard. Yes ; between the Reds and the Whites. Senator Nelson. That is, the Bolsheviki and the anti-Bolsheviki ? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelson. And the Bolsheviki were finally successful, wera they? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. And got possession of the town? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelson. Was there very much destruction of life and property ? Will you tell us what went on there at that time ? Mr. Leonard. The city was bombarded, and of course there was great destruction of the buildings and many people were killed. I do not think that many were killed after the second day. They did not have anything organized there, and after they got organized there was no more indiscriminate shooting. They would not shoot a. man unless they knew who he was. Senator Nelson. What did the Bolsheviki do after they got con- trol of the city? Did they loot property — confiscate property — - commandeer it? Mr. Leonard. I think the first thing they did was to levy a con- tribution of 10,000,000 rubles on the city. Senator Nelson. Oh, that was the first thing? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelson. What else did they do ? Mr. Leonard. They put in their agents and took control of the mdustries ; put their commissars m there. Senator Nelson. Are you acquainted with any of those commissars? Mr. Leonard. No ; all I have is what I got in just passing through Kiev several times. It was never my headquarters. Senator Nelson. Were there any men who had graduated in America, over there? Mr. Leonard. I would not know them in Kiev. I had no official communication with them. Senator Wolcott. May I interrupt there, for a question ? Senator Nelson. Certainly. Senator Wolcott. I would like to know what is the purely English- word that is the equivalent of " commissar "? Mr. Leonard. There is none. It is a term that at first was very loosely applied to any man bearing a commission from the Soviet o-overnment. If you are given any job to-day you are called a com- missar. Now they have tried to limit that word to a few people,, corresponding with these highest councils. That is, in the govern- ment they would have their council and commi^ars — a few commis- oo^c. "Rnf ihat has been without any success. Everybody who has. 198 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. It practically means the same as the English word " coinnussioner," in a general way ? "We speak of such and such a man as a commissioner, and they call him a commissar. That is ifi Mr. Leonaed. I guess so. They have adopted the terminology of the French revolution, and in some cases they have followed it cor- rectly, but in other cases they have not. For instance, any officer in control of a station we would call a station master; but they would have two men there, a station master who is a railroad man, a technical man, and then they would have a commissar, a member of the committee, a member of the Bolshevik Party, who would be there to control' him and see that he did not do anything against the party — to control his actions. And so in any little place they would have commissars. Senator Nelson. How big a town is Kiev? How manj^ people has it, about? Mv. Leonabd. I do not know exactly. Its population is over a million, but it has such a large refugee population, varying from tim;^ to time. Senator Nelson. Is it a manufacturing town? Mr. Leonard. A manufacturing town to some extent; yes, sir. It is a great commercial town. It is the center of the sugar trade. Senator Nelson. What did the Bolsheviki do, when they got con- trol of the town, about carrying on the industries or operating; or what did they do in the way of comnuindeering and taking property over ? ^Ir. Leonard. I do not know. As I said, I just passed through Ki^y several times. I was always going through. Senator Nelson. "Where did you go to from Kiev after that? Mr. Leonakd. I vi'ent to Moscow, and then in January and Febru- ary I took a trip through the southern and eastern part of Russia, trA'ing to find out if there was an army. Senator Nelson. Did you go clown the "V^alley of the Don? Mr. Leonard. No, sir. I went down through Kazan. Senator Nels'ON. Dowm the "\^olga liiver? ]Mr. Leonard. Yes. I crossed the "\"olga and then went to Ufa and down to Orenberg, and then back. Senator Nelson. Did you go up the Kama Eiver? Mr. Leonard. No, sir. Senator Nelson. Did you go clown near the mouth of the Volga? Mr. Leonard. At a later time, but not at this time. Senator Nelson. Down at Astrakhan? Mr. Leonard. I was stationed at Astrakhan several months later. Senator Nelson. How are conditions there? Mr. Leonard. In Astrakhan? Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Leonard. The town has suffered a good deal. There was fight- ing there in 'February, and so the center part of the town is pretty well burned down. The Bolsheviki are in control, and there is some industry there. Of course, the city is the center of the fish trade, and the trouble is that they can not ship the fish away. The trans- portation and delivery has practically stopped, so that the town is in bad straits. BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 199 Senator Nelson. The country you mention, is not that the country of the Don Cossacks? Mr. Leonard. That is the country to the west of the lower Volga. Senator Nelson. To the west? Mr. Leonard. Yes; and immediately on either side of the river there is the desert. Some nomad tribes are there with their stock. Senator Nelson. How big a town is that, again? How many people has it, about? Mr. Leonard. I should say about 70,000—100,000. Senator Nelson. And the Bolsheviki are in possession of that? Mr. Leonard. They were at that time. Senator Nelson. At what other jjlaces up north and west of that were you at? Mr. Leonard. I was in Samara, Saratov, Tsaritzin. Senator Nelson. Were those towns in control of the Bolsheviki? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Also I was at Ekaterinodar. Senator Nelson. Did you go as far north as the railroad junction at Viatka ? Mr. Leonard. No, sir. Senator Nelson. That is between Perm and Vologda? Mr. Leonard. No, sir; except when I came through from Siberia and passed through there. Senator Nelson. Tell us what you saw of the operations of the Bolshevik influence, and how they carried on things there. Mr. Leonard. I think the first thing is that the Bolshevik govern- ment is a government principally on paper. In Petrograd and Mos- cow, where they have the most able men in the Bolshevik party, they are able to some extent to make things go, but in the provinces or in any other state aside from those two it is pure chance. They pay no attention to the orders from the center. I was down at Ekaterinodar. (At this point the subcommittee took a recess until 2.30 o'clock p. m.) AFTER RECESS. (The subcommittee met at 2.30 o'clock p. m., pursuant to the taking of recess.) TESTIMONY OF MR. ROBERT F. LEONARD— Resumed. Senator Overman. Are you the gentleman that one witness stated had been imprisoned ? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Overman. Who imprisoned you? And where were you imprisoned ? Mr. Leonard. At Tsaritzin. Senator Overman. What size town is that? Mr. Leonard. About 70,000. Senator Nelson. Which way is it f rona Moscow ? Mr. Leonard. Southeast on the Volga River. CiariotrvT- DvTi^RMAN. Go On aud tell why they put you in jail, how 200 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Leonard. I do not know why we were arrested. Senator Overman. Were there others besides you? Mr. Leonard. There was another American vice counstil, an inter- preter. We had received orders to leave the country. The consuls were leaving from Moscow, and they sent us word to leave. It was impossible to get to Moscow because the river communication had been cut, and the Cossacks had control of the river up above, and so we started south. About 12 hours after we left they sent a boat for us and brought us back. There was a plot to overthrow the Bol- shevik government in the town, which was to have taken effect that night, six hours after we left. They discovered this plot and also found about 10,000,000 rubles buried in the ground, and I guess they thought that money had belonged to us. ho they took us back. We denied any connection with the government or with the neutral government, or with the local soviet. We were arrested by this ex- traordinary commission whose purpose was the combating of coun- ter revolution, speculation, and sabotage. We were kept in that place about six weeks. Senator Overman. You were arrested by soldiers? Mr. Leonard. By a commissar with an armed guard. Senator Nelson. Who was that commissar? Do you know his name? Mr. Leonard. No ; I do not. Senator Nelson. Was he a Eussian? Mr. Leonard. A Eussian; yes, sir. There were two. One was a Eussian and the other was a Jew. About three weeks later this Jew commissar was himself arrested. He had tried to steal 2,000 rubles from the government. We were kept there for six weeks, and it was only because a Bel- gian who was living in that town saw us through the window that they got any word in Moscow. He took word up to Moscow that we were there, and as soon as our consul, Mr. Poole, laiew it, he took the matter up with Tchitcherin, their foreign minister, who, to our knowledge, sent down at least two telegrams to this extraordinary conunission. Senator Nelson. The Belgian sent them? Mr. Leonard. The Belgian took the word up to Moscow that we were in prison, and then Consul General Poole went to see the foreign minister about our case, and Tchitcherin sent two telegrams, to our knowledge — he may have sent more — ordering them to release us un- less they had incriminating evidence against us, in which case order- ing that we be sent up to Moscow. They kept those telegrams in Tsaritzin, and it was only when a Danish vice consul came down to take out the French colony — there was a French colony of 50 people there, and the French vice consul had been notified, and he came down to get them out — that he threw a bluff and said that we were under his protection, and took us up to Moscow. We were in Moscow about another three weeks. Senator Nelson. Were you under arrest in Moscow ? Mr. Leonard. We were in, solitary confinement. Senator Nelson. At Moscow? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelson. In what kind of a prison ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 201 Mr. Leonard. The best one I have ever been in. Senator Wolcott. Also the vi^orst? ■ Mr. Leonard. No ; we were in four different ones over there. Senator Nelson. You have not told us about the prison where you were first kept six weeks. Mr. Leonard. We were in a big building that had been comman- deered for the use of this extraordinary commission. I think the only way you can understand this extraordinary commission is to compare it with the inquisition. It has full powers, and in order to pass the farce along quickly, it combines the functions of the prosecuting attorney and judge, and this building was used as their guard room' and barracks for their guards, and the prison. Senator Nelson. That is where you were kept ? Mr. Leonard. Yes; 14 of us in three little rooms were there for three weeks. Then they took us over to the city jail. Senator Nelson. What sort of a place was that? Mr. Leonard. They put us in a cell that the old regime meant for one person, 6 by 13 feet. Senator Nelson. How many were in that? Mr. Leonard. Five. We were there three weeks, until they took us £0 Moscow. Senator Overman. Did you have any bed to sleep on? Mr. Leonard. The floor. Senator Overman. Was it cold ? Mr. Leonard. No ; it was in the early autumn they arrested us, the middle of August. Senator Nelson. How were you supplied with food ? Did you get enough food to eat? Mr. Leonard. In the first prison, we had quite a bit of black bread and soup, meat, and potatoes once a day. In the other place they gave us a half a pound of black bread in the morning and a dish of soup at noon and some hot water. Senator Nelson. And what in the evening? Mr. Leonard. Hot water. Then they took us up to Moscow and kept us there three weeks. Senator Nelson. What kind of a prison did they keep you in there? Mr. Leon'ard. Very good. The rooms were clean and dry,. and they had a straw mattress for us. Senator Nelson. You had plenty to eat ? Mr. Leonard. The Red Cross — the International Red Cross — sent us in food that had been given out by the American Red Cross. Other than that, we got very little. Senator Overman. Were you under guard all the time? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. While we were in the first prison, they had guards stationed in the halls. Then when we went down into the city jail the doors were locked, of course, and we were supposed to be taken out for a walk every day — a half-hour walk — but the place was so crowded that we got a walk the first day we were there and the last day. The rest of the time we were locked in the cell. Senator Overman. You said you were in solitary confinement? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. 202 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Lf.oxard. They gave you a cell in solitary confinement, kept you alone, and you Mere not supposed to talk with anybody. Senator Oveebiax. You said that you were with three or four other prisoners. Mr. Leoxaed. "\Alien we were first in Tsaritzin we were all to- gether, biit when we were brought to Moscow we were placed in solitary confinement. Senator Xelsox. Each man by himself? Mr. Leoxard. Yes. sir. Senator O^T.E:\rAx. How did you finally get out? Mr. Leoxard. The Norwegian legation was exerting pressure all the time. But. for one thing, the Bolshevik government wanted us to get out. There was a fight all these months between the Bolshe- vik government and the extraordinary commission. The extraordi- nary commission had been created by the central Bolshevik govern- ment, and it had tried to assume all the power to itself, and declared that it was mider no control ; that it was not responsible to anybodv. They fought for about six weeks or two months as to that question, as to whether it was to be independent or not. The ministry of the interior maintained that the extraordinary commis- sion was responsible to it, and that if the commission refused to do what it was directed to do it would be made a separate commissariat and have its own people's commissar. This extraordinary commis- sion refused that. The local s(i\"iets were opposed to this extraordinary commission because it had its headquarters in Moscow, and tlien its branches in every city, and commissioners would come to a city where they did not know tlie situation, did not know the people, did not know the Bolsheviki, and would start to make investigations, arresting whom- soever they pleased. The Soviets claimed that this extraordinary commission should be placed under the control of the Soviets; and they also put forth this demand, that before executing a man, the extraordinary commission should report to tlie soAiet, and the soviet could then look into the matter, and, upon application, could demand a stay of execution for 24 hours for further consideration, and if at the end of 24 hours the extraordinary commission Avanted to shoot him, they could do so. But the commission refused to entertain that idea, and as I said, when we were in prison at Tsaritzin the Bolshevik minister for foreign affairs, Tchitcherin, telegraphed down demand- ing our release, and they ignored it. At the same time in this jail there was a Bolshevik commission that had been sent clown to see about bringing ovTt oil from the Cau- casus, as thei'e was an oil famine in Russia. At the head of it there V, as a man who had charge of the distribution of oil in Eussia. The oil industry had been nationalized, and he was in charge, and his associate was a man detailed from the commissariat of ways and communications as an expert adviser. In Tsaritzin these members of this oil commission were all arrested. There was some bad feeling between the big Bolsheviki in town and the head of this oil commis- sion, Makrovsky, I guess, and they arrested them. About two days after they arrested them they shot Alexieff, who was the railroad adviser, and his two sons, and about three days after that they re- ceived a telegram from Lenine — signed " Trotsky by Lenine " — de- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 203 manding that Makrovsky and Alexieff be sent to Moscow imme- diately; that he kneAv them and would answer for them, and de- manded that they be released. They had already shot Alexieff, and they kept Makrovsky there for at least another three or four weeks, just ignoring this order from Lenine. So there was this fight be- tween the government and this extraordinary commission. Finally the government won out, and when the government won out we were released. Senator Nelson. At Moscow. Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. Then where did you go from there? Mr. Leonard. Then we went up to Petrograd and remained there for approximately two weeks, as the border was closed at that time, and we left Petrograd on the 16th of November. Senator Nelson. What occurred while you were at Petrograd? What did you see of the Bolshevik government and their operations? Mr. Leonard. They had their big celebration, tlieir anniversary of their coming into power. A very interesting thing happened. In the first days of November the Bolsheviki became very nervous and panic-stricken. The situation on the west front before the armistice was signed was such that they knew that the allies were winning, and they were afraid that Germany would be used by the allies, that the allies would join with Germany and march into Eussia and over- throw the entir^ Bolshevik movement, and there were rumors in Petrograd that the Germans were marching on Petrograd, and were alread}!' coming. Tliey were just panic-stricken, and tlie head of the extraordinary commission in Petrograd asked protection of the head of the International Eed Cross. That was a very small or- ganization, a new organization which had been established when, the American, British, and French Red Cross If ft. They had formed this International Eed Cross composed of the Scandanavitui, Dutch, and Swiss, and gave the supplies over to them for the relief of for- eign citizens in Russia, and they came and asked permission to carry on their work; and this man was panic-stricken and excited and he said that he would give this permission if they would in return give him safe conduct. So he was under the protection of this Interna- tional Eed Cross, which indicates how panic-stricken they were. Yet the same people a few days before had refused to obey the orders of Lenine. Then when the revolution broke out iii Germany, they were con- fident that the Bolshevik revolution had come in Germany, and they were going out to lick the world. So they came from this one day when they were absolutely panic-stricken, to two days after- wards when they were very cocky, and then they learned tliat it was not a Bolshevilf revolution and they set about to make it a Bolshe- vik revolution and telegraphed to Liebknecht that they were sending a trainload of flour to the Bolsheviki in Berlin, and the Bolshevik leaders had daily long-distance communication with the Bolsheviki in Berlin ; and then they sent a commission of the ablest agents, the best speakers and best propagandists, into Germany with Bolshevik money. Maj. Htjmes. Mr. Leonard, will you tell the committee what you saw during the time that you were confined in these jails witli refer- 204 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ence to the operations of the extraordinary commission, as to the way they wtre handling prisoners — that is, disposing of them. Mr. Leonard. The}' went on the theory that any man against whom . there was any accusation was guilty until he was proved innocent and they would receive anonymous letters charging, or some one would send warning, that a certain man was engaged in counter-revolution- ary activity, and upon that they would arrest him and hold liim for months, maybe, before his case would be brought up ; and if they had nothing against him they would dismiss him without any explana- tion. He was guilty until proved innocent. They were very prim- itive in their methods. I know the first room we were in when arrested we shared with an Italian, who was guilty, all right, but they tried to press the inquiry, and they would take him out about midnight or at three o'clock in the morning and take him and beat him up with their revolvers. He would tell us about it afterwards and show the scars. They were shooting men against whom they had some proof, some of whom undoubtedly were guilty and others were not. They would come in there and say that they were going to call the roll, and that these men were going to be sent off to prison — that they had been tried and were to be sentenced to two, three, or four years in prison — and the next morning the head of the guard, who was quite a friend of ours, would tell us where the bullet went in. Instead of taking them to prison they would line them up against the ditch. They brought in one workman vrho was supposed to belong to the social revolutionary party, one of the original socialist parties of Russia, and told him to sit down and write all he knew, for he was to be shot that night. They waited until the next day. Senator Nelson. Did they shoot him ? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelson. Did he have a trial ? Mr. Leonard. None that we knew of. Senator Nelson. Was there any trial at which he was present? Mr. Leonard. None that I know of. He may have had something in the last hour or so. Senator Nelson. They tried men without their being present? Mr. Leonard. Yes. This Makrovsky, this big, very prominent Bolshevik, told me this, and he and I shared a cell for a time. He was fighting with the head of this extraordinary commission. Senator Nelson. What is his name? Mr. Leonard. Makrovsky. Senator Nelson. What was his other name? Mr. Leonard. That was his original name. Senator Nelson. Did he not have an}' other name ? Mr. Leonard. None that I knew about. Senator Nelson. Go ahead. Mr. Leonard. Some people were asked if they knew this man Mak- rovskv. A whole line of people were asked, " Do you know this mnn ? '" They all said, " No." He turned around in a curious way and said, " I know none of these people." And then he asked me, " Suppose one of them had said that he knew me, and the others had all denied it? " I said, " What would have happened if one had said he laiew you? " " I would have been shot." BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 2,Q)'5 Senator Steeling. What was the charge against this man with whom you shared this cell ? Mr. Leonard. He was accused of participating in this counter- revolutionary plot. He made this statement. He said that the heads of this commission were degenerates ; that they were not typical Rus- sians. I remember that he said the head of this commission was nothing but a degenerate, and that if he ever got to Moscow and he sa^^" him tliere he would shoot him on the spot, and nobody would say anything to him about it. This man also said that the people in the center did not know what was going on in the provinces; that they had no idea what this commission and people were doing in the various cities and provinces. He said, "Why, if Lenine knew this he would shoot them all." Senator STEELl^G. What did he mean by that; namely, that in the various provinces and cities they were not revolutionists'^ Mr. Leonard. He meant this, that these people who belonged to the Bolshevik part}', who held the Bolshevik offices, and who were doing exactly as they pleased, were not obeying the orders or the instruc- tions or the spirit of the central government. Senator Steeling. The central government as represented by Len- ine and Trotzky ? Mr. Leonard. Yes ; by Lenine and Trotzky. This man Makrovsky had a revolver when he came down there and had a permit signed by the head of the all-Russian extraordinary commission for combat, etc. The local committee took this revolver away from him. He said, " I have a permit here signed by Peters, the head of this commission," and they said, " Do you mean to say that we have no power here?" yi&j. Hl^ies. Did j'ou ever know Peters? Did you ever come into contact with him? Mr. Leonard. No, sir. Maj. Hujies. Do you know whether it is a fact that he formerly was in London ? Mr. Leonard. I never heard that he Avas in London. I know his wife still is in London. He speaks English very well. Maj. Humes. Is he a Russian? Mr. Leonard. A Lett. Most of the extraordinary commission in Petrograd are Letts. I could speak better Russian than most of tlie extraordinary commission in Petrograd, and that is poor enough. They could not write. They got a list of prisoners there, and when they came in to take them out, they could not read the names, and one of the prisoners would have to stand beside them and read the names. Senator Overman. They did not give you any trial ? Mr. Leonard. No, sir. Maj. Humes. How many constitute that extraordinary commis- ,sion? Mr. Leonard. I do not know. The all-Russian commission in INIoscow is a ^ er\' elastic structure, and this man Al Peters is the actual head. There was another man who was supposed to be the head, but Al Peters does all the chair work. It is an extraordinary commission for the government of the state. There are no require- ments — no specifications. Maj. Humes. Now, Mr. Leonard, during your travels through Russia did you come in contact with actual examples of terrorism and brutality? 2W. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Leonard. I had been in Astrakhan. I had been sick. Just before I was arrested I came up to Tsaritzin, hoping to get better. During the first days after we were arrested occurred the attempt on the life of Lenine, and just before that two or three of the prominent Bolsheviki had been shot and attempts had been made to kill others, so the Bolsheviki were getting nervous. There was also a plot in Astiakhan to overthrow the government. They had some fighting there, and it was while we were in jail that they received a message from Astrakhan and published it in the official bulletin, that the mili- tary commissar there, a man whom I had known and had dealings with, telephoned up and said they had shot 300 officers as retaliation for the counter-revolution plot, and as a retaliation for the attempt on the life of Lenine. Maj. Humes. Those were officers of the former Kussian Army^ jMr. Leonard. Yes. That is almost a caste, now. The Bolsheviki just say •■ an officer " and that classifies him as belonging to that caste. Then in July, down in Tsaritzin, they were taking out men who were distinctly of the proletariat but who belonged to this other party, the social revolutionary party, as we could see from our cell. We did not know how many they were shooting, but the ditch there in which tliey were buried grew every night. They were shooting all the time. Maj. Humes. Do you know anything about looting; did you come in contact with any of that? Mr. Leonard. You can not stop it. When they come in to take a town they just take things. Maj. Humes. What did they do with reference to looting houses and going through houses after they had taken a town ? Mr. Leonard. They do not loot. They say they own all the prop- ertj of the nation, that it is all public propertj-, and they just take what they want. Maj. Humes. All the personal property is the common property of each individual in the nation? Mr. Leonard. Yes; and then they go in and help themselves. I got acquainted with a Jew who had been in New York who was a commissar down there; I do not know just what kind. His first act on taking office was to distribute all the silk stockings they found there to all the peasant women and working women — to all those who belonged to labor unions or whose husbands did. The Jew was very scared at this time because the Cossacks were coming, and he was going to use his American library card as an American passport to get out. Senator Nelson. What was his name? Mr. Leonard. I can not remember. Senator Overman. Did you see many of these New York and Chi- cago Bolshevik sympathizers? Mr. Leonard. I was in the provinces all the time. People who came over had an opportunity to get the good jobs, and they were in the center. Senator O^^erman. They were in with the Bolsheviki? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Overman. Did you talk to anv of them ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 207 Mr. Leonard. I talked with just this man. That is the only case I knew. Senator Nelson. Where had he lived in this country ? Mr. Leonard. In New York. Senator Nelson. On the East Side? Mr. Leonard. Xes, sir. Senator Overman. His idea in going over there, Mr. Leonard, Avas that he ijiought it was going to be a good time, I guess. Mr. Leonard. Thought it was going to be a good time. He boasted that he had never done a day's work in his life. Senator Nelson. A Hebrew? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelson. And had never done a day's work in his life? Mr. Leonard. And did not intend to. Senator Overman. And he wanted to come over to this country and do the same thing. Mr. Leonard. No ; he was worried about his life, and he was going to come over here where he would be safe. Senator Overman. Did you know Lenine? Did you ever see him? Mr. Leonard. No, sir. Senator Overman. Or Trotzky? Mr. Leonard. No, sir. It might be interesting to quote this man Makrovsky, a man who ought to know, as he was in the people's council in Russia. Senator Nelson. Who? ]S[r. Leonard. This man with whom I was in jail, this oil commis- sion man. He said that everybody trusted Lenine — that is, of the Bolshevik party — that everybody trusted and respected and admired Lenine. They admired Trotzky. He is their best orator, the most brilliant orator in Russia to-day, but they have not the same faith in him that they have in Lenine. Lenine, they think, is absolutely honest — he is an idealist, a fanatic, but he is honest — whereas Trotzky is capable and brilliant, but they think he has personal ambitions, and very many of them think that he is getting an army — you see he is the minister of the army and minister of the navy — and that he is try- ing to make this army loyal to him as an individual rather than to the government, and that he is seeking an opportunity to rise. I just hand that out as the opinion of a very intelligent, educated, and an ideal Bolshevik. Senator Overman. He is a man of property and yet a Bolshevik? Mr. Leonard. He has no property. He is a man of education. He had been a revolutionist all his life, and had been wounded in the revolution of 1905; was a student, I think, in Italy and a student elsewhere, but a man of no property. Senator Nelson. Trotzky lived in this country for a while, did he not? Mr. Leonard. Trotzky has been here. Senator Nelson. You refer to Lenine? Mr. Leonard. I was referring to this man who gave me these data. Senator Overman. Did Makrovsky tell you what they propose to (Jo — what the plans are of these Bolsheyiki ? Mr. Leonard. Yes ; he told about their ideals, and all of that. As near as I could compare them, it was to bring into operation the 208 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGAJNUA. Golden Enle ; they had fine ideals. But it was very interesting to see that he changed absolutely there in prison. It was not for fear of personal danger, though there was that — he was not afraid of his life — but he had sacrificed everything for the revolution, that had been his religion, and now the revolution had come and as long as he was in Moscow he was fairly well satisfied, because something was happening there, but the minute he got off in the provinces and saw what was taking place, it was a pathetic sight to see him. His faith was broken, and although he came to prison a Bolshevik, when he left he was a Menshe^'ik, absolutely. He said, " The time is not ripe. We can not put the thing through. It must come by evolution and not by revolution.'' Maj. Humes. Can you think of any occurrences that you have not related along the line of the activities of the Bolshevik government? If so, just proceed and relate them. Mr. Leoxard. I will trj- to emphasize this, that Bolshevism is a rule of a minority. The Bolsheviki gained their power in N^ovember. They promised peace and bread, and to the peasants land; peace, bread, and land — peace, bread, and freedom. By freedom they meant giving the workman a chance to nationalize industry, to social- ize industry, to take complete control, and with those three slogans they captured the Russian Army, and everybodv was a good Bolshe- vik as long as it meant getting his land or getting his factory. Then when the government tried to take his wheat from the peasant at a fixed price — a much lower price than he could get in the open market — and when the price of manufactured articles was rising every day, the peasant said it was unjust and that this was the gov- ernment of the factory men. They said, " The first thing they do is to form their committees and lessen their hours of labor, and then they raise their wages and make them retroactive, so that they get this increase of wages for a year or more back, and the result of it is that the prices of goods must rise, and at the same time they are lowering the price of wheat; so we are getting it both ways." That caused the great split between the peasants — the farmers — and the workmen. Then there was a plan in Petrograd and in Moscow to arm these men and send them down into the provinces to take the wheat by force, which, of course, did not appeal to the peasants. The peasant is conservative, more conservative than the industrial worker in Russia, and in a local soviet of peasants sometimes they would not elect a Bolshevik soviet, but would elect a social revolu- tionary soviet, belonging to the social revolutionary party. Then the Bolsheviki would send down and by force of arms would expel that soviet and either restore the Bolshevik soviet or create a new Bolshe- vik soviet. But still the conditions did not satisfy them, and so this last fall Lenine put in the program of these committees of the poor. These are committees made up of the riffraff of the peasants, those people who have not any land or have not any property, people that drank up all the money they ever made, people without any ambition. He put them in control of the Soviets, or to control the action of the Soviets ; and so they have a combined function, they are executive and administrative ; and, of course, that does not appeal to the peasant. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA- 209 The peasant wants to elect his committee and have liis soviet have the power. Then here come these people, the riffraff, and try to take what they want. I know in some villages they could not elect any committees of the poor because they did not haxe any poor peasants. Then they would import them from some place. Senator OvEinrAx. Did the officers take any part in this Bolshevik novement ? Mr. Leonard. Not what you would call reoular officers. Some of the students who had always been I'evolutiouary, and who since the war liad come through quick training camps, came back in the low >-rades as commissioned officers, and also some who had risen from :he ranks, and some men Avho saw a chance to make a career for them- selves, took part in it. Senator Oveuman. Where was the German army while all this was 3'oing on? Mr. Leonaed. The Germans were transferring their ai'my from' the eastern front to the western front. During all this time there was hardly any fighting. After that advance of June, 1918, came a re- treat, and then fighting practically stopped. There was desultory fighting. Senator Nelson. And the German troops were sent to the western front. Senator Oveejian. Did they fraternize with the Germans at all, while 3'ou were there ? Mr. Leonaed. Yes, sir. Senator Overman. The Germans were encouraging the Bolshevik movement? Mr. Leonard. Very much so. Senator Nelson. Did you see any of these Bolshevik troops? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. I mean the troops of the army. Mr. Leonard. Of the Bolshevik army? Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. Did they have German officers among them? Mr. Leonard. None that I ever saw, except in this, that they had what they called international battalions of the red army, made up for the most part of prisoners of war. But there were very few officers among them. There were noncommissioned officers, but very few commissioned officers. Maj. Humes. You mean German nonconmiissioned officers? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. They had this international battalion com- posed of Germans, Austrians, Hungarians, and Chinese. Senator Nelson. Did they have any sailors there — Russian sailors? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. Were they in the Bolshevik army ? Mr. Leonard. They were at first. But they are not idealists, by iny means. They are not fighting for any ideals. The sailors are the roughnecks of Russia. They terrorize. For instance, 30 sailors 3ame to Suma and held up the town, held it for two days, and arrested ill the government officials. They went into the port towns of Novorssiisk and other towns, and they tokl me that when they came to Odessa none of the sailors had less than 40,000 rubles. They had 210 BOLSHEVIK. i-KUi-AUAJNUA. looted the banks. A crowd of 20 to 40 would come into a town and take the hotel and insist they were going to live there. In one town one of the government officials tried to get me a room in the hotel and he could not do it. They did not dare throw the sailors out. Senator Nelson. These were Black Sea sailors? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. They were all the same, Baltic or Black Sea. Senator Nelson. Are the Baltic sailors bad ? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir: they are more of the regular sailor type. Most of the regular army of Russia was killed, but the navy, of course, did not suffer, so they have the old men, still, men who are not afraid, and who have been harshly treated and are out for re- venge and a wild time. Senator Nelson. What was your experience in getting out from Petrograd ? Mr. Leonard. Why, there was no experience, except that when the way was open they gave us permission and we went to a Finnish port. Senator Nelson. Did you have to buy your way across? Mr. Leonard. We had to buy our baggage through the customs and have it carted down, and we went out with a Norwegian courier. Between us we had a good deal of baggage, enough to fill a little handcart, and they carried our baggage through the customs, about four minutes' walk, and charged us a thousand rubles, which went to the government employees there. Senator Sterling. Mr. Leonard, I would like to ask a little more particularly about soviet government in Eussia. Can you say about how many of the soviet governments there are in Russia ? Mr. Leonard. I left there in the middle of November, and there have been so many changes, I can not say. Senator Sterling. The soviet government is an old institution in Russia, is it not ? Even before the revolution, and for a long time, they had soviet governments, had they not? Mr. Leonard. Not to my knowledge. They attempted in the revo- lution of 1905 to establish, the Soviets of soldiers, sailors, and work- men. When the revolution was overthrown in 1905 of course those Soviets were abolished — destroyed — but since then it has been an idea of their own that if they e\'ei' had the power they would establish this government of the councils. Senator Sterling. Coincident with the revolution itself and the overthrow of the Czar, a number of these soviet governments were established there? Mr. Leonard. These Soviets, these councils, were established, but took no part in the government aside from criticizing. At that time there was a dual government under Kerensky — or rather, the first pro- visional government — and thit was really the Petrograd soviet. The Petrograd soviet wanted to have things done its own way but re- fused to take the power itself. Senator Sterling. T^Tiat is the territorial jurisdiction of these soviet councils or governments? Do they have one for the city? Mr. Leonard. On the top they have this all-Russian soviet which meets in Moscow. Then there will be a district of several states BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 211 which has a district soviet, and then each state will have a state soviet, and each city will have a soviet. Senator Sterling. What do you call a state now, in Russia ? Mr. Leonard. One of the old provinces we would call a state. It is a geographical division. They will have a soviet for a state, and then a city will have its soviet, and then a ward will have its soviet ; but they are all tied up together. Senator Sterling. They have the federal supreme soviet, then the district Soviets, then the state Soviets, and then the city and village =oviets ? Mr. Leonard. Yes, and then the agriculturalists will have the county Soviets. Senator Steeling. On the establishment of those Soviets were they in the hands of the Bolsheviki ? Mr. Leonard. No, sir. Senator Steeling. Did the Bolsheviki succeed in capturing them later? Mr. Leonard. The Bolsheviki captured them by propaganda, and the Soviets as first established were more radical than the first pro- visional government ; but at that time they were not Bolshevik, and it was only about in July that the Bolshevik movement got to be seri- ous in Petrograd. Then they were electing their members into these Soviets, so gradually by absorption most of the Soviets became Bol- shevik, and it was only when they found that they had the Soviets in this mariner that they attempted to overthrow the government. The Soviets were not captured by force; it was by absorption. Senator Sterling. Are there any considerable number of soviet governments or councils not in the hands of the Bolsheviki at the present time? Mr. Leonard. At the present time I would say none whatsoever in bolshevik Eussia, because such do not exist. Senator Steeling. What do you understand by bolshevik Russia? I want to know what part of Russia, if any, is not under the domi- nation of the Bolshevik movement? Mr. Leonard. The Ukraine, part of it, is not under Bolshevik gov- ernment. But I see by the papers that the Bolshevists are advancing into the Ukraine. Senator Steeling. How about that territory captured by the Czecho-Slovaks and the Little Russian armies in Vologda for 200 miles along the Volga River? Is that under Bolshevik rule? Mr. Leonard. I think it is, now. It has been recaptured. They drove the Czecho-Slovaks out of Samara in September, I should 3a^^ but for a time the Czecho-Slovaks had control of the Volga River. "Senator Wolcott. Would it be a fair statement tO' say that the Bolsheviki rule over the greater part of European Russia now ? Mr. LroNAPD. ^>Y;>'"!"oul" a map it would be hard to sa'''. hr.t I should iaj it would be a little more than a half. Finland is out, part of Poland, and part of Ukraine. The Caucasus is in, and then the Don Cossacks; so that it leaves Big Russia, what they call Big Russia, in their hands. So I should sav it would be pretty evenly distributed ; perhaps a little more than half. Senator Steeling. How about the government in northern Russia, iround Archangel? 212 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. Mr. Leonard. Of course, that is not Bolshevik. Senator ISteiujng. But thev liave there the soviet councils, do they not? iSIr. Leonard. I reallj^ do not know — I have never been there — but I do not think so. I tliink they hav,e some other form of government. Senator Xelson. That northern part of Eussia, north of the Si- berian Eailroad, around tlie ATliite Sea and Archangel, and up in that country, is very thinly settled? Mr. Leonard. A'ery sparsely settled. Senator Nelson. It is a country of vast swamps and heavy timber? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir.' Senator Xelson. And there are few people there, comparatively? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Xelson. The settlement in Russia is south of what j'ou call the Siberian Railroad t Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Xel.son. Xorth of that it is practically what wo would call largel}' a nonsettled country, is not that the fact? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Sterling. Were you in the northern part at all? Mr. Leonard. No, sir ; I was not. I gained this information from a British major who was in jail in Moscow with us. Senator Xelson. Have not some European capitalists built a road up to the Kola Peninsula, on the Murman coast? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Xelson. It is 600 or 700 miles long? Mr. Leonard. About that distance. Senator Nelson. Then there is an older road from Vologda up to Archangel? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Xelson. And a road connected with Viatka, east of that, a station west of Perm? Mr. Leonard. I passed through there in July. Senator Xelson. How did you go out? Mr. Leonard. I went by the railroad through Ii'kutsk. Senator Sterling. How far east from the European Russian boundary is Irkutsk? Mr. Leonard. It is just about half way across Siberia. Senator Sterling. Where, from Lake Baikal? Mr. Leonard. About 40 miles west of Lake Baikal. Senator Sterling. How about that region in there, is that under Bolshevik rule, along the trans-Siberian road? Mr. Leonard. I can not say now, because it is changing so often. Mr. Storey came from there after I did. Senator X'elson. I think the country from Vladivostok up as far west as Omsk in western Siberia, and perhaps across as far as Perm, is practically under the control of the anti-Bolsheviki, under the con- trol of the Czecho-Slavs, the Japanese, the French, and the Enghsh. Mr. Leonard. I think that for a time the eastern part, near Vladi- vostok, and then the Urals, Avere in the possession of the anti-Bol- sheviki, whereas around Irkutsk they were Bolsheviki. Senator Xelson. But they have been cleaned out of there. Irkutsk is near Lake Baikal and is the capital of eastern Siberia ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 213 Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Sterling. What has become of the Czecho-Slovak Army that was fighting there and holding for a time the Trans-Siberian Eailroad ? Mr. Leoxard. They have had to retreat because tliey had no sup- port at all. It was meant to serve as a nucleus I'or a Siberian' g-ov- ernment, but instead of having one government they had over a hun- dred there. The army of the Czecho-Slovaks were underfed and un- derclothed and had tremendous losses, out of 440,000 troops their casualties Avere 40 per cent, and when no support came they had to withdraw to save themselves. Senator Sterling. Did you meet Col. Lebedeff? Mr. Leonard. No ; I did not meet him. Senator Sterling. You have heard of him '''. He was very much interested in the Czecho-Slovak Army and helped in the raising of a loyal Russian Army. Mr. Leonard. I do not know whether — he M'as across the line, evi- dentlj'. We got very little news thei-e. We got new^s from across the line only once in a while. Senator Xelson. Part of the Ukraine is now held by the Bolshe- viki, is it? Mr. Lkonard. If you can believe the newspapers, they have taken almost as far as Kiev. Senator Nelson. That is in the western part of the Ukraine ? Mr. Leonard. It is in the northeastern part. The Ulcraine runs like that [indicating], and it is in the northeastern part. Senator Nelson. They claim clear from the boundary? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir; but the line runs like that [indicating]. Senator Nelson. How^ is it with the Cossacks on the steppes back of the lower Volga? Do not the Don Cossacks hold that? Mr. Leonard. Yes. sir. Senator Nelson. Then that is not under control of the Bolsheviki, is it ? Mr. Leonard. When I left it was not. Senator Nelson. That country up aroimd the Dvina River, is that in control of the Bolsheviki? Mr. Leonard. No; that was in control of the anti-Bolsheviki. Senator Nelson. So that the center of the Bolshevik power there is in what they call (rreater Russia, and a part of Little Russia, and a part of LTkraine. That is about it? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Its big center is in Moscow. It is an industrial movement. It is a movement of the armed minority of the industrial classes — the factory worlmien. Senator Nelson. Ho that, roughly speaking, they have got about half of Russia proper under their control? Mr. Leonard. It would show approximately a half, I would guess. I -would make no definite statement without a map. Senator Nelson. And they have practically lost control of Siberia? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. A question has been raised here about food. I would say that there is sufficient food in Russia, provided there could be distribution. In the northern Caucasus there are tremendous supplies of wheat. They have not touched the crops for two or three vears' back. They have the crops stored there. 214 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Xelsox. They have poor transportation facilities? Mr. Leonard. Very poor. During the summer they can transport by the river. One railroad was absolutely cut off and the other railroad was cut off a good part of the time ; and it is only a single- track road, anyway. Senator Xelson. Is that railroad from Baku cut off ? Mr. Leonard. When I was there it was cut off by the hill tribes. Senator Xelson. That is in the oil fields on the southwest side of the Citspian Sea? jMr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Xelson. I believe vou said that the Bolsheviki had control of Astrakhan? Mr. Leonard. They had when I was there. I see by the papers that the British are supposed to have entered Astrakhan. Senator Xelson. Ancl a British fleet is outside of Odessa, in the Black Sea ? Mr. Leonard. So the papers say. Senator Xelson. That is the principal town in southern Russia, is it not? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Xelson. It is their greatest wheat market? JNIr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Xelson. Eight face to face with what they call the Black Belt in Russia? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Xelson. And the country immediately around Odessa is not under the control of the Bolsheviki? ]Mr. Leonard. Xo, sir. Senator Xelson. How is it down in the Crimea ? Mr. Leonard. When I was in Russia nobody kiiew what was hap- pening down there. They had different governments down there. Senator Xelson. The Bolsheviki did not have control of tliem? Mr. Leonard. That was a part of Ukraine, so the Bolsheviki were not in control there at that time. Senator Xelson. The country around the north side of the ."^ea of Azov, that is, where the Don enters into it My. Leonard. That is in the hands of the Don Cossacks. Senator Xelsox. And the Bolsheviki have no control there? Mr. Leonard. Xo: they were driven back by the Don Cossacks and by the Germans. Senator Xelson. The Don Cossacks — that is, the older element- are not with the Bolsheviki? Mr. Leonard. Their loyalty is wavering because they have not any money or supplies. Senator Xelson. But if thej^ had monej' or supplies, they would be all right? Jlr. Leonard. T'nless they are all tired. There is that feeling, and there was that split between the Don Cossacks and the younger Cos- sacki, who had been to the front and came back strongly tainted with Bolshevism. For a time they were widely split, and then they came together. The younger Cossacks wanted their own land. Senator X^'elson. Do you not have an idea, Mr. Leonard, that the outcome will be this, that the Russian peasants and the Cossacks and BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 215 the remnants of the old Eussian Army will by-and-by unite and be able to stamp out the Bolsheviki ? Mr. Leonard. Provided they can unite. That has yet to be proved. That has been the trouble over there. That has been the reason the Bolshevik party has been able to hold its position, he- cause not of strength of its own but because of the weakness of its opponents. Senator Nelsox. Do you remember the name of that Eussian ad- miral who has assumed control of the Siberian Eailroad? Mr. Leonard. Admiral Kolchak. Senator Nelson. He is anti-Bolshevik? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir; very much so. Senator Nelson. And he seems to have done pretty well lately in the neighborhood of Omsk? Mr. Leonard. You get more information about that than I do, be- cause when I was in Eussia we got absolutely nothing over there, as to anybody. Senator Nelson. But you have kept track of the papers since you have come here? Mr. Leonard. I gather from the newspapers that he has been a reactionary. Senator Nelson. Naturally, the tendency of the Cossacks would be toward the conservative side, as toward the Eussian side — anti- Bolshevik — would it not ? Mr. Leonard. Yes. The feeling of the Cossacks was that they would defend their own territory, but they were opposed to invading Bolshevik Evissia in order to overthrow the Bolshevik government. Senator Nelson. But they would never submit to the Bolshevik government ? Mr. Leonard. Some of them have done so. Senator Nelson. They would not allow their lands to be taken away from them? Mr. Leonard. Some of them have done so. The trouble in the whole situation was that they would not unite. They would fight among themselves until the Bolshevik party came in, and then when they were powerless and their arms had been taken away they would begin to think about getting together; and eventually they did, but at tremendous cost. Senator Nelson. Do you not apprehend that ultimately there will be dissension among the Bolshevik leaders, and they will break up into sections? Mr. Leonard. They probably will. Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Leonard. That is very probable, except for this, that they are pretty keen men, and they know that their only safety lies in sticking by each other; that the minute the}' start fighting among themselves, the whole thing falls. Senator Nelson. Are there many of those Bolshevik leaders that have lived here in this country? Mr. Leonard. I do not know. In the provinces where I was most of the time there were very few. My friends who have been in Petro- grad and Moscow say that there are a great number of them there. 216 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. The foreign minister of the Petrograd government is n man who has been in America. Senator Xelson. AAliat is his name? jNIr. Leonard. Zorin. Senator Xelson. What is his real name '. Mr. Lec)Nakd. I do not know. Senator Xelson. Is lie a (xerman or a Hebrew? Mr. Leonakd. Xo; he is a Kussian, so far as I could say. Senator Xelson. He is a real Russian!' Mr. Leonard. He is neither a German nor a Hebrew. Senator SaisRLiNG. What is the thought, among those opposed to the federal movement, in regard to allied intervention, and the use of a sufficient military force ''. Mr. Leonard. At first they said " All we need is a nucleus." They said, " Wliy, with a regiment of American, or British, or French soldiers we could take Moscow. AVhy not send us just a nucleus?'' Thej could take the town, but they could not hold it, of course. They now no longer asked for such help, but the people I knew wanted the allies to come in and save them. For instance, the Finns "were asking for help. But the people I met throughout Eussia, as recently stated, had been through the four years of war and suffer- ing, and were apathetic, and they were expecting the allies to come in and save them. Senator Sterling. With a small allied force they could at one time have taken ]\Ioscow and prevented the establishment of the Bolshevik government there? Mr. Leonard. I do not know about that. With all these counter- revolutionary plots that I saw it was easy at any time to take a city. But what is the use of it ? You can not hold it. There is one com- munity there, and all around you are the enemyl You have no way of getting ammunition, and that is the whole trouble. But as to put- ting a nucleus of a military force there, it has been tried in three places and has not been a success anywhere. They gave them 40,000 to 60,000 C'zecho-Slovaks, troops than whom there are no better fight- ers in the world, and the army did not materialize. The Czecho- slovaks for several months fought against overw'helming numbers and finally, because of luck of support, had to Avithdraw. They tried the same thing down in Baku. They asked the aid of the British to come over fi-oni Ensili, which is about 18 hours by boat, and they asked them to send up a small group of British, with British officers and some armored cars, and some guns and ammunition. The British responded. They sent up about 50 officers, if I remember cor- rectly, and several hundred men. and I think vrere to have about 2,000 men and some armored cais in Baku. They could not hold the town. The people did not rally around them. At the same time that the jieople were asking aid of the British they were making Turkish flags as well as British flags in their homes, so that they would be ready to hang up t1ie right flag, whichever side won. There came up a small force, and they fought for about two weeks and then had to go back. The conditions were not very favorable for trying out anything at Archangel, because there were not many troops there, and it seems that the allies had to do most of the fighting there. Senator Nelson. Where is that? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 217 Mr. Leonaed. Archangel. So that at three different, places where it has been tried — two places Avhere it has .been tried under good con- ditions and one place where conditions were not so good — the at- tempts have failed. Senator Nelson. So that more than a mere nucleus of an army would be required to maintain order and keep the Bolsheviki in check ? Mr. Leoxakd. Yes, sir. Senator Xelsojj. "With the port of Archangel and that jjost on the Murman coast, on the Kola Peninsula, and with all the ports on the Black Sea under the control of the allies, and also the ports along tlie Baltic under the control of the British and French fleets, those Bol- sheviki are cut off from the sea in Petrograd, are they not? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Xelson. And Avill not that ultimately lead to their coming down from the high tree ? Mr. Leonaed. It may lead to it ultimately. But on the other hand, Avith a population 85 per cent of whom are peasants who have not any very great demands, they can exist on what they have and what they can raise. Senator Xelson. Xo; but those industrial workers have got to get raw materials. Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelson. To carry on their manufacturing ; and if they do not get to work and earn something, where will they be ? Mr. Leonard. They will print more money. Senator Nelson. The last that they got printed was at Leipzig, I believe ? JNIr. Leonaed. They may have gotten some there, but now they print it in every town. They have commandeered practically all of the lithographing establishments, and are printing the money. Senator Wolcott. Do you know a man by the name of Harold Kellock? Mr. Leonard. No, sir ; I do not. Senator Wolcott. Are you in position to say what acreage was planted in spring grain and in spi'ing wheat in 1918, as compared with ordinary years? Mr. Leonaed. The men of whom I asked that question down in the northern Caucasus, which is a very rich countrj^, said that it was about 75 pel' cent they thought. The big estates have been taken and divided up. On that stretch southwest of Tsaritzin there has been very little j^lanted because of the civil war — fighting all the time. Some Avas planted, but there Avas no har^-est, as there was fighting all the time. In Tsaritzin, they sent out the women into the fields. They gathered all the women and sent them out to do Avhat harvest- ing they could behind the armies. I should say that there is no ques- tion of shortage — of dire shortage — of grain in Eussia, provided they can get it to Moscoav and Petrograd ; provided they haA-e the trans- portation necessary, or can stop the fighting to let the trains go by. I Avas talking with a man Avho had been detailed from a Petrograd factory to get some wheat to Petrograd last spring. At that time the railroad was not cut ; but his preparations for g;etting that wheat consisted of a special train, carrying armed men Avith machine guns. 218 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. They had all the cars and orders to get the grain, but they had to have that protection in order to get the grain through to protect it from the other Bolsheviki. Senator Wolcott. Here is a statement which I will read from a magazine. Senator Steklixg. From what are you going to read ? Senator Wolcott. This is from an article written by Harold Kel- lock in the Good Housekeeping Magazine of February of this year, entitled "Aunt Enuny wants to know who is a Bolsheviki, and why." I read as follows : But in spite of tliese terrible tilings the spring planting was done, and a bigger acreage was sown than at any time since the war. The peasants were working for themselves. Xow, he must have referred to the spring of 1918. "What have you to say as to the accuracy of that statement? Mr. Leonard. I would say, from my knowledge, that it is in- accurate. There are three things opposed to it. In the first place, there has been a lot of civil war — civil fighting. The men were under arms and could not work. In other places where it had been planted the harvest could not be reaped because of the fighting. Around Samara, which is a fertile place, they could not plant because of lack of seed. The seed was gathered up from old estates and distributed, but because of the famine the peasants took the seed grain and ate it. The fact is that the peasant is a hard-headed fel- low. He is not sure who is going to reap the grain that he plants. Under those conditions he does not see any good in jDutting his money into the grain and the seed and his time into the cultivation of it. Still another thing- is that the peasants have more paper money than they want. They have literally thousands of rubles. Ever since the war started, since the prohibition of vodka, the peasant has been putting money into the savings banks and buying things for his house and buying phonographs. Even in 1916 this was true out in Siberia, that a peasant who had 20 acres, and licfore that had planted and cultivated the whole 20 acres, was able to make a living and had been making a lot more money than he did before would say, '' AAliat is the use of planting 20 acres? I can live just as well if I plant only 10 acres." So that he has been planting 10 acres and letting- the other 10 acres lie. Xow, the same thing holds much more when his crop is taken from him at a price which he considers unfair, and when at the same time with the money which he is given in return he can not buy anything that he wants. He is paid for his crop in paper money. He does not know who is going to harvest that crop, anyway; so he is going to plant just enough to keeji himself. Senator Wolcott. You spoke of one district, I think you said, it was down in the Caucasus Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Wolcott (continuing). Where there are abundant quan- tities of grain now, if they could just transport it? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Wolcott. In the spring of 1918 was that district under Bolshevik control I . Mr. Leonard. The district was. The river was in the control, about May, of the Czechs. The central part of the Volga Eiver was in their BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 219 control. Both the mouth and the source of the Volga are held in the control of the Bolsheviki, but the center was under the control of the Czechs, and they could not get anything past. There was a railroad running from there straight up to Moscow, which ran through the Ukraine, but that was impossible to be used. There is one other road that zigzags up Senator Wolcoit. I am not concerned so much about the trans- portation problem. I am trying to test the accuracy of the statement of this article that the author puts in this Good Housekeeping Maga- zine. That is what I am concerned about. Mr. Leonaed. Yes. Senator Wolcott. You said that the statement I read was inaccu- rate? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Wolcott. Confining the statement to that portion of Kussia that the Bolsheviki control, would you say that it was just mildly inaccurate or that it was grossly inaccurate? Mr. Leonard. I would say that it was mildly inaccurate. Senator Wolcott. It is not a gross misstatement? Mr. Leonard. No ; mv estimate would be 75 per cent. He says more than 100 per cent. Senator Wolcoti\ No ; he does not say that. Mr. Leonard. He says more than ever was planted before. Senator Wolcott. At any time since the war. Mr. Leonard. My statement is that 75 per cent has been planted. He says over 100 per cent, whereas I have said 75 per cent. Senator Overman. Have you noticed since you have been home any propaganda of this Bolshevik business going on in this country ? Mr. Leonard. A week ago Sunday I went up on the north side of Minneapolis, Avhere they advertised a play in Russian by the Russian Slavic Educational Society — under the auspices of that society. It was a little one-act play put on by amateurs, which was a tirade against capitalism and the injustice of capitalism; and after that a man who had been a delegate to the so-^'iet congress in New York came out and delivered a speech in favor of Bolshevism, and rather Senator Nelson. Was that in Russian? Mr. Leonard. In Russian — and he rather sneeringly spoke of the United States and its President; but it was an out-and-out Bolshevik speech, for he said that the Russians under the Bolsheviki were living far better than they ever had before, and he held up the Bolshevik government as tlie ideal governmert. Senator Nelson. What is his name? Mr. Leonard. Gregorin. Maj. HxTMES. Is that his first name? Mr. Leonard. No, that is his last name. I think his first name was Alex. The thing that impressed me most was that this audience was fairlv well dressed. Senator Hardwick. How was he received ? Mr. Leonard. He received an ovation. The whole audience stood in honor of the fallen heroes, Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxem- burg. 220 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Wolcott. In this article that I read from a moment ago. I find two pai-agraphs which are calculated to leave the impression on the mind that the chief leaders in this Bolshevik movement are ani- mated entirely by a praiseworthy sentiment of love for the nation and desire to educate the people, and that they have no selfish pur- poses at all to serve. Xow. I want to read you these two para- graphs and see if your observations over there were such as to lead you to agree with the impression that these two paragraphs make upon the mind. [Eeading :] Some reniiirkiible personalities have lipcn included nmoiig these cninmissars. They work for workmen's salaries, 600 i-ubles (aliont ^90) a month, with an extra allowance of 100 ruliles for each dependent. Thus Lenine, wliose wife is employed in the department of educatiim. Rets 600 rubles, and Trotsky, who has a wife and tlnve children, prets 000 i-ubles. Both Lenine and Tchieherin, the Commissar for Foreif;"n Affairs, come of old well-to-do Russian families. Trotsky is the son of a prosperous .Jewish merchant. In Peti-o.srad Trotsky and his family lived in a little garret room in Smolny Institute, the soviet headquai'ters. Tchieherin serveil as a. diplomat under the Czar before he became a revolu- tionary Socialist. While commissar of foreign affairs in Petrograd, he lived in a shabby little lodging liouse in the working qimrter. and members of the American Red Cross mission who had occasion to call upon him at his office would find him transacting affairs of state clad in a soiled sweater and baggj- old trousers. Xow, that conveys to my mind the impression that these men were poor men. and, so to speak, hugged their poverty, notwithstand- ing the,y were in places of power. ]Mr. Leonard. It is both true and untrue. They are very demo- cratic and do not care hoAv they dress, and they do not care in what kind of places they work. But Lenine in Moscow has good quar- ters. The Bolsheviki have taken over the best hotel in town nnd get it rent free. Trotsky lives in the next best hotel. They all have Peerless automobiles, those Avho have not Packards. Senator "Wolcott. They are not living in garrets, then? IMr. Li:nxAKD. When working they can not keep a room in order: so that this room, after two weeks under Bolshevik rule, would' look like a room in a svreat shop: and in the next room, if there was a pre&s of work, Lenine and Trotsky Avould live, night after night. So that is true. But they live pretty well, aside from that. As to what he says about their being idealists, and all of that. I think most people in Eussia agree that Lenine is actuated entirely by ideal mo- tives. You can not agree with them; but some of the leaders- most of the leaders — are, the people say. But most of their workers, most of their associates, are not idealists. This statement was made to me by a man who had been in Eussia, and a man who was sup- posed to know. He says that To per cent of the leaders are honest. They are fanatics, and you can not agree with what they are doing: but 75 per cent of the leaders are honest. But 7.") per cent of the men are dishonest. Senator Wolcott. Are you in a position to entertain and to express a reliable opinion, to make a reliable statement, as to whether this assertion that they are working and getting only 600 rubles or 900 rubles a month is true. Is that all they are given? ]Mr. Leonaed. That is true, officially. It has since been raised because of the high cost of living. Lenine is now getting 1.200 BOLSHEVIK PnOPAGAIvTDA. 221 rubles. That Avas raisecl by act of law. That is Avhat they are making officially. What some of them get in other ways is' hun- dreds of thousands. Others do not take a cent in that wav. Senator Wolcott. It is well known that they are getting a lot on the side? Mr. Leonard. Some of then^ are. Others are not. This man who was in jail with me, Makrofsky, was getting his 1,000 rubles a month, and that was all, and there was absolutely no graft ; w'hereas an old Jewish fish merchant who was doA\-n iii Xavorossisk made himself minister of finance, and it was not many weeks before he sent his Avife out of the country with millions. Senator Wolcott. He was not an idealist? ]Mr. Leoxaed. He was not an idealist. Senator Wolcott. He was not restricted to his 1,000 rubles a month ? Mr. Leonard. Xo. Senator Wolcott. Here is this statement [reading] : For the first time a real school system has been formed, and everj' child in Soviet Russia goes to school. Mr. Leoxaed. That is the best department they have. Senator Wolcott. The schools are running, are they? Mr. Leonard. They are, in a differeiit fashion. Everything is State. They do not allow the private schools or private gymnasia to function any more. They are trying to put on great reforms in feeding the children in the schools, and in playgrounds, and so forth. On the other hand, they put into the faculties, of their schools jani- tors and washv'omen, and let them have a vote in determining the curricula of the institutions. They have clone away with the require- ments for admission to the universities, because they say that vi^orks only to the good of the capitalist class. Only those who come from the capitalist class can comply with the requirements; so they say, ■■ We must admit anybody who comes to the university, equalty." They have a big program and are doing things. / Senator Wolcott. I Avas just going to ask, are they doing things? Mr. Leonard. In several places they are. Senator Wolcott. In other words, they are teaching the three Ks, anrl their educational program seems to support their theory, very largely.? Mr." Leonard. Yes: but if I may be permitted to say this here, the thing that this man said in his speech in Minneapolis, this Russian, was that people accused the Russians of being uneducated. " Tkit," he said, '" I call that man educated who has class consciousness." Senator Nej^son. Was that at north Minneapolis? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Nelson. Was it on the east or the west side? Mr. Leonard. It Avas on the Avest side. Senator Nelson. Were there many there? Mr. Leonard. About 300. Senator Nelson. What AAas the character of the people Avho Avere there? Were they Russians? Mr. Leonard. They are all Russians. The Avhole thing Avas in the lano'uage. And that is one thing they are trying to do in this school, nahielA-. to inculcate class consciousness. 222 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Overman. Now, carrying out the idea of this revolution, 3'ou have told us about one meeting; do you know of any other propaganda in this country ? Mr. Leonard. No; I know of Senator Overjian. In magazines and papers? Mr. Leonard. None ; except that the New Eepublic print, it seems to me, is as one-sided as the stuff of the so-called tools of capitalism print. Senator Overman. This article from which Senator Wolcott has read here, does not that sound a little bit like it might be Mr. Leonard. It seems to me too optimistic. The trouble is that a good many of these writers go to Petrograd and Moscow and meet the most intelligent Bolshevik leaders, who make themselves very nice to them, ancl they can make a very good impression, because they are educated. They talk about this great ideal, and nobody can op- pose them. Then those people come home and say that it is a fine program. I know one magazine writer that came over there and was personally conducted through some of the prisons, and came out in an article saying that the prisons were better than they had been, and were not bad. Well, I was never personally conducted around, but the only good things that I saw were what was left over from the old regime, in the prisons. A.nd this same writer met Al. Peters, " one of the nicest men she ever met." He was assigned as interpreter for the Bolsheviki. He was a man who was shooting people without trial all the time. Senator Nelson. He was the lord high executioner? Mr. Leonard. He was the man who told the Norwegian attache that he was going to shoot us. He said that we were all counter- revolutionists. He said that without looking at our papers. When we got back these papers had not been touched. Senator Nelson. He AViis the kind of man that Byron speaks of in his poem " The Coreair," of whom he says : He was tlie mildest-mannered man that ever scuttled ship or cut a throat. [Laughter.] Senator OvER:\tAN. Their government looks prettj' good on paper, but their actions do not correspond with their theory. It was testi- fied here this morning that these fellows feel that they have a right to do as they please and take what they please, and do as they-please generally. Do you believe that? Mr. Leonard. Do I believe in that? Senator Overjian. Do you believe that that is so ? Mr. Leonard. Yes; that is their program. Senator Nelson. Did you come across Albert Rhys Williams over there ? Mr. Leonard. No, sir. Senator Nelson. You never met him? Mr. Leonard. No, sir ; I knew- that he was there ; but, as I say, I was in the provinces most of the time. Senator Nelson. Did you know anything of his activities? jMr. Leonard. Nothing; no, sir. Senator Nelson. You lost a good deal. Mr. Leonard. I guess I did. BOLSHliVIK PROPAGANDA. 223 Senator Wolcott. Do you know anything about their program looking forward to socialization of women? Mr. Leonard. I was in Samara at the time that came out in the papers, and I have in my possession, some place, their placards deny- ing that. They say that is not true. They say that was put up by the counter-revolutionary element in order to discredit them, and that it was done by a group of anarchists who have since been arrested by the Bolsheviki. Senator Wolcott. Do you know Avhether that placard was put up in their buildings ; or have you knowledge of that ? Mr. Leonard. I have no knowledge on that subject. It was not put up in other places where I had been. Senator Wolcott. Was that the only thing you saw over tliere that indicated, or that gave any justification for the idea, that tlie so- called program for the socialization of women was in their minds? Was that the only piece of evidence you saw ? Mr. Leonard. That was the only piece of evidence I saw. They are aiming toward free love. They are doing away with the marriage ceremony, and they have, of course, adopted a civil ceremony; and in some places they have it for a term of years. Senator WoLcott. I want your opinion on that, because this writer winds up with an article and says that after all the test of it will be this, " How will it ailect the Ijabies of young married folks, and folks who do not get along very well? " You say this is a part of the doctrine of these leaders, that they want to reform the marriage relation and make terms of years for the married state, and inaugu- rate free love? Mr. Leonard. Yes ; that is in their program. Senator Overman. How did you find their morals there, among the men and women ? Mr. Leonard. They have a different moral standard from what we have in America. Senator Overjian. Are they bad? Mr. Leonard. They have more of the oriental attitude. Senator Xelson. That man, Maxim Gorky, I believe his name is, whom they have taken into the fold, is about as immoral as they can make them. Mr. Leonard. There was great rejoicing when he came back to the fold. Senator Xelson. He is bad enough to leaven the whole Bolshevik mass. Mr. Leonard. I do not think they need much leavening. Senator Overman. But they rejoiced when he returned? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. He was over here in New York for a while. Senator Wolcott. Who is his assistant? Mr. Leonard. —■ Senator Wolcott. Commissar of education? Mr. Leonard. Yes. For a time he withdrew from them and was bitterly opposed to them, and scattered editorials against them, and then he came back. Senator Nelson. My recollection is that he was over here in New York a while, and that he left the country in disgrace, because they did not approve of his having a bereft wife with him. -24 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGAXDA. Senator Overtax. Do you know anything about their taking over a lot of young girls in a seminary and putting the Bolshevik soldiers in with them ; Mr. Leonard. I never knew of that. Senator Overman. Is there anything else, ^lajor? ilr. Leonard. I will say that the program and the spirit of the Bolshevik party i.b directly opposed to religion and to what we know as the home. Senator "Wolcott. "What is their argument for declaiming against the home? Mr. Leonard. They say the home does not give the children a fair chance. They have not had a happy home experience, and those who have lived in the poorest quarters say it does not give every- body a fair chance; that everybody ought to start e(jnal, and the children ought to be taken and put in government institutions and given the same education. They say this has grown up from capi- talism : that true love does not enter into marriage ; that now it is a sj'stem of barter for social position and for wealth, and all of that, so they are going to have love, and provide for the children in govern- ment institutions. Senator Wolcott. That is to say, the children will not grow up in home surroundings * Mr. Leonard. No. Senator AVoLcorr. If they cari-y out their program, then, the future men and women will have no recollection of home life or of the home fireside, with their parents there. Mr. Leonard. Xo; the_y are opposed to that. Maj. Humes. The theoi'y is that the children are to be taken care of by the State. ]\Ir. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Xklson. They are to be nationalized? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Maj. HriiEs. Yes; nationalized in that way. Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Xelson. And they do not believe in marriage, because it is a part of the creed of the capitalist class, is not that it? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Overman. Are they in favor of divorce? jMr. Leonard. It is very easy to divorce. Senator Overman. They do not have to go to Reno? They have no Eeno? Mr. Leonard. Xo. Senator Xelson. You do not have to go into court to get a divorce. The man just makes a declaration or writing to the woman and says, "' I divorce you," and that is all there is to it. Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. vSenator Overman. Has the woman the same right to say that she divorces the man? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator Overman. So the women have got equal rights over there? Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Sterling. Do you think, Mr. Leonard, that these prin- ciples appeal to the ordinary Russian peasant very much, or is this the doctrine of the leaders who are pre:iching it? iJOJLSHBVIK PROPAGANDA. ^'^0 Mr. Leonard. I do not think that it appeals to the Eussian peas- ant ; but the unrest has come from the peasants who have been abroad in the industrial cities in Eussia, where they have had poor surround- ings and have been ill paid, and where "the propaganda has lieen going on among them for years, and they have been taught that they are the degraded class, the exploited class, all of them. So there is where the ti^ouble is coming from, and from the industrial workmen, rather than from the peasants. The peasant had one need. The peasant really needed land, and wanted it, and when he got land he was satisfied. Senator Xelsox. They have one advantage now, that they do not have to go to Nevada or any of these western cities to get a divorce. They can get it at home. Mr. Leonard. Yes. Senator Overman. What about the churches? Do they attend their churches? Mr. Leonard. Yes ; the peasants still attend the churches. But the church, of course, has been disestablished, and the Bolsheviki are carrying on an endless propaganda against the priesthood, against the clergy, and they are playing up everything they can against the clergy, and they publish tliat in the papers. Senator Overiman. Can you give any reason for that? Mr. Leonard. To ' discredit the church because the church has been a department of the state. It has been a very conservative in- fluence and has not given the spiritual leadership to the people that the people needed. They call that party opposed to the church the Black Hundred. Senator Wolcott. I supjDOse they recognize the psychological fact that if thej' can destroy the faith of any people they get the people into a condition where the}^ can overthrow anything they want to overthrow ? Mr. Leonard. Yes; and that is just it. The peasant did not know what he Avas fighting for .in this war. He Avas fighting for one reason, because the Czar told him his duty called him ; and the Czar and the church were very closely united, and when the Czar was over- thrown most of their faith fell aAvay. If now the Bolsheviki can discredit the church, the poor peasant is absolutely helpless. He has nothing to cling to. Sena^tor Wolcott. He is driftwood, so to speak? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir. Senator "Wolcoit. He must move the Avaj' his leaders Avant to move him? Mr. Leonard. Absolutely. Senator Nelson. The Eussian Church Avas the backbone of the old Government, and Avas the one connecting link that kept the peasants attached to the GoA-ernment, Avas it not, to a large extent? Mr. Leonard. Yes, sir ; to a very great extent. Senator Nelson. Has the church lost the influence that it had in the past ? Mr. Leonard. It has lost its influence among the industrial classes. Senator Nelson. But among the peasants? Mr. Leonard. The peasants still go to church. Where their priest has been bad, they have gotten a new priest there, but they have not 85723—19 15 226 BOLSHE\^K PROPAGANDA. turned agiiinst the church, and even as hxte as August there was a decree gotten out i:)i-ohibiting the hanging of icons in any public building or any building belonging to the state. Before the war with Germany, in every building there was a little icon hanging up in the corner. Down in the department of the Bolshevik Cossacks they still had all their icons hanging up, because they said they were called for. The soldier commissar tried to make them put them out, and they said they could not do it, for if the Cossacks believed that they were anti-Christian they would not have their support at all. Senator Xelso>'. In the great chaos that prevailed after the death of the imbecile son of Ivan the Terrible there was an interregnum of 29 years in Eussia, and it was through the church that they finally gathered themselves together and elected INIichael Romanoff as the Czar, supplanting the old line of rulers, and it was through the church that they succeeded in rallying the new government together. Xow, do you not believe that in the pi'esent emergency the church will be a great help Mr. Leonard. I have faith to belie ve- Senator Xelson (continuing). In the rallying and gathering to- gether of tlie Eussian people against this Bolshevik system? Mr. Leonard. If the church can help itself and produce a leader who can unite Eussia. Senator Xelson. You recollect that in the French Eevolution they attempted to destroy all religion, and the church altogether, but they failed in it ; and they will fail here in making war on the Eussian Church. Do you not think they will ? Mr. Leonard. That is my opinion. Senator Nelson. The peasants and the church and the Cossacks and the conservative element will get together, and inside of six months they will eliminate that Bolsheviki crowd? Mr. Leonard. Once the}' can all get together. That is the question. Senator Overman. ]\Ir. Leonard, hoAv many of this middle class— the bourgeoisie, as you call them — have fled Eu.ssia on account of this terrorism ? ■]\Ir. Leonard. I could not estimate it, but a gi'eat number. These Scandinavian countries are filled with them. They have not fled Russia, but fled Bolshe-^ik Eussia. Kiev was crowded with them, and Eostov. and the territory of the Don Cossacks; and then, to a somewhat smaller extent, the northern Caucasus, after the anti- Bolshevik forces cleared out of the place. Senator Oversfan. When you left there what was the difference in the population of Moscow from what it was when you first went there ? Mr. Leonard. I do not know about ]Moscow. I was brought up under guard. Senator Overman. How about Petrograd? Mr. Leonard. Petrograd has a population of about half a million now. Senator Overman. How much had it in normal times I Mr. Leonard. Away over a million. Senator Overman. It has been stated here that it was nearly 2,000,000. Mr. Leonard. Yes. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 227 Senator Nelson. In normal times it had about 2,000,000? Mr. Leoxaed. Yes ; the population was told me bv several men. Senator Nelson. At Moscow they had about 500,000 or 600,000 in normal times? Mr. Leonard. I do not know. I should say the population was lario'er than that. Senator Steeling. What has become of some of the revolutionary leaders there — the leaders in the Duma at the time of the breaking out of the revolution — like Miliukoff ? Mr. Leonard. Miliukoff was down in the Ukraine, down in Kiev. One was down with the Don Cossacks, with Gen. Krostoff. I under- stand they have scattered around. Another remained in tlie north- ern Caucasus. Senator Overman. What became of these great generals? Mr. Leonard. Brussiloff was wounded, while lying in bed, by street fighting. Alexieff died last August, and Demetrius Senator Overman. What became of Brussiloff? , Mr. Leonard. He was wounded, and I have heard the rumor that he has since been killed. Senator Overman. What became of Korniloff? Mr. Leonard. He was killed. Senator Overman. Where is Kerensky? Mr. Leonard. He is over in England some place, is he not? Senator Overman. How about Nicholas — what became of him? Mr. Leonard. He was down in the Crimea when the Ukraine was taken by a force of Germans and Austrians. I think he is still in the Crimea — still in Kiev. The Germans said they were going to take him a prisoner of war, but he Avas in the Crimea at that time. Since that I have heard nothing. Senator Nelson. Wliat became of Nicholas? Mr. Leonard. The grand duke? He is the man I Avas just speak- ing of. Senator Overman. He was one of the greatest generals the war has produced, in my opinion. Senator Nelson. Yes; he was a great general. Senator Oatseman. What has become of these first revolutionary leaders? Mr. Leonard. They have gone down to these other regions which I have named, where the class is bourgeois. Some have gone out into the Scandinavian coimtries, but very few. There are none of them in power. Many of them are in Siberia. Senator Overman. The banks have all been taken over, have they not? Mr. Leonard. The banks have all been nationalized, and all the private banks have been reopened as branches of the national bank. When I left all bank deposits had been arrested : and then for a time you could get out 100 rubles a month on check, which was later raised to about a thousand rubles a month by check, and then the people objected to that. Of course there were no deposits under such conditions, and then they put in a condition that of any money you deposited after a certain date you could draw as much as you wanted. Then people deposited money, but when they tried to draw it out the banks said they did not have any money, which was the truth. 228 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGAJJDA. Senator Overman. I suppose everj'body that had money on de- posit took it out ? Mr. Leoicakd. Most of them could not get it. The turnover came too quick. Senator Xelsox. Tliey commandeered all the money? iMr. Leoxaed. Yes, sir. Senator Overman. Did you hear any talk there about doing away Avith all money and not having any money at all? Sir. Lkoxard. Xo; but they might as atcU do something like tliat, because the present money does not amount to anything. In each little district there are a dozen making counterfeit money. Some of it is made in Austria, some is made in Germany, and a great deal is made in Eussia itself. Senator Xelson. No specie circulates there? Mr. Leoxard. Xo, sir. ilaj. Ht::mes. Gentlemen, I have here for the record — I do not know whether you want it all read or not — an excerpt from the official Bolshevik newspaper detailing their state budget for the second half of the year 1918, showing that the total amount of expenditures of the republic for 1918 is estimated at 48.000,000.000 rubles, or about $23,000,000,000. Do you care to have it all read? Senator Overman. No; just put it in the record. (The matter referred to is as follows:) THE STATE BX'DGET FOR THE SECOND HALF-YEAR 1018. The work in connection with the drawing up and examinntion of the budget of the Republic for the second half of 1938 and the general balancing of same has been completed. The total amount of State expenditures for the euri-ent ha!f-vear is estimated at 29,000,000.(100 (17,000,000,000, or 70 per cent above the previous lialf year). The total amount of expenditudrcs of the Republic for 1918 is estimjitetl at 40,000,000,000 rubles. The first place, in proportion to the amount of expenditures, is occupied b.v the military rommissariat, the total amount of the expenditures of which !s set at 9,500,000,000 (7,700,000,000 ordinary expenditures and 1,700,- 000,000 e>:tra(jrdinary). Comparing this with the total for the 0rst half-year (5,800,000.000). the expenditures of the commissariat increased by 3,700,000,000, that is 63 per cent. The second iilaee is held by the expenditures in connection with the organiza- tion of economic and trading conditions of the State and the exploitation of the State enterprises. The expenditures are distributed among the depart- ments as follows : To the commissariat of ways of communication and the chief management of waterways is apportioned 4.2 billion rubles ; to the com- mittee of the State constructions — 1 billion ; to the Supreme Council of State Economics — 1.6 billions ; and 800,000,000 for operating expenses and for the. cover of excess expenditures in connection with the nationalization of enter- prises. The total amount of expenditures of this character entered in the budget is estimated at approximately 8,000,000,000 (27 per cent of the total amount of expenditures). The following place in the budget is occupied by the expenditures for edu- cational purposes. In comparison with the first half-year the apportionment for the commissariat of national education is 5 times greater and is estimated at 2.4 billions (against 0.5 billion for the first half-year.) In general the total amount of expenditures for educational purposes reaches 12.5 per cent of the total budget. The fourth place in the budget (10 per cent of the budget) Is occupied by expenditures which are created by the extraordinary economic conditions of the nation, i. e., expenditures foi' organization of food supply. For this pur- pose, according to the estimate of the commissariat of food supply, the latter BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 229 is apportioned for the current half year 3.1 billions — that is, two and one-half times move than in the first half year. Especially noteAvorthy, in comparison with the budgets of previous years, are the separate estimates for health conservation, social insurance, regulation of labor and insi'iranc« of same. Are insurance, and for work in % the last place is occupied by the Commissariat of For- ei.gn Relations, with an apportionment of 5,000,000 roubles. AVith all its advantages the budget has vital defects, namely, its deficit ; the total of State revenues for the second half year is estimated at about 12.7 billion rubles. Consequently the difference between the expenditures and the revenue is above 16.000,000.000. Takins into consideration the fact that out of the 12.7 billion rubles of the State revenue, 10,000,000,000 rubles are derived from special taxes, that the ordinary revenue of 2.7 billions Is only approxi- mately estimated, and that according to the first half year the income does not come up to expectations entertained when compiling the budget of reve- nues, the deficit of the budget appears to be still of a most serious character. TESTIMONY OF ME. ROBEET M. STOEEY. (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) Senator Overman. Where are you from? Mr. Storey. Urbana, 111. Senator Overman. How long have you been back from Russia? Mr. Storet. I got back in AugTist. Senator Overman. How long were you in Russia? Mr. Storet. About a year and four months. Senator Overman. What position did you hold over there ? Mr. Storey. I went over as the representative of the American Young Men's Christian Association. I was in European Russia for about eight months and in Siberia for the balance of the time, in charge of the work there. Senator Overman. Go on and state in your own way the conditions over there. Mr. Storey. The impression made upon me when I went into Russia was cumulative, to the effect that we were entering a country which had been very seriously worn out by the war. The condi- tions in Siberia were not so bad. Senator Nelson. Did you enter from the Siberian end ? Mr. S'torey. I entered from Vladivostok. Maj. Humes. Where were you with reference to the revolution? ^Ya.s it before the Bolshevik revolution? Mr. Storey. It was after the March revolution, yes; but as you got further into Russia it became more and mere apparent tliat you were in a country that had been at war and the resources of which had been seriously drained. Entering Moscow early in November, I was there daring the strug- gle between the cadets and the supporters of the Kerensky regime generally against the Bolshevist movement. The fighting there lasted for about a week. It wavered back and forth. Troops which were bronp-ht in from the outside to help support the government 230 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. were in almost every case turned to the support of the Bolslievist group, and finally, about a week after the fightinp; started, and after considerable damage was done and perhaps 2,000 lives had been lost, the Bolsheviki were able to take command of the city. Senator Steeling. What influences were brought to bear on those troops to win them over to the support of the Bolshevik movements Mr. Storet. My judgment there is that they probably had been won over before they were brought into reach of the city. Certainly the morale of the entire Eussian Army had been thoroughly rottecl out long before any American visitors reached Russia. Mj own judg- ment is that the damage had already been done before the first revolu- tion took place, and that at no time, probably, after the fall of 191(1 was there any expectation that the old army could be rehabilitated and made into an effective fighting force for any of the causes or appeals which could then be made to them. Certainly at no time after the Your.o,' Men's Christian Association became active in the field Mas there any such opportunity. Senator SteeluvG. That disaffection among the troops at that early tirhe was clue to Bolshevik propaganda? Mr. Stoeey. No; it was not, altogether. It was due to the circum- stances of their life. They were poorly armed, poorly equipped, and they did not know why they were fighting or what they were fighting; for, particularly after they had lost confidence in their leaders, as the.y did. The stories of corruption of the old regime during the war almost paralleled anything that I have met with since. The fall of Riga, I have heard it said many times, Avas the result of a dicker for millions of rubles' worth of supplies. Senator Steeling. The old regime having fallen and the Czar hav- ing been deposed, did not the troops have faith in Kerensky? Mr. Storey. No; I think not. At one time it seemed as though he might rally them. No part of Russia wanted to fight after the revolution. A certain part of it felt under obligation to do so, but I have not encountered any enthusiasm in any part of Russia for con- tinuing war. Senator Steelixg. Did you hear anything of the failure of Ker- ensky in the matter of discipline? Did he not relax the army dis- cipline to such an extent that it aided this Bolshevik sentiment? Mr. Stoeey. I have heard two sides to that. One was that the pro- visional cabinet was responsible for that famous edict, No. 1, which did relax the discipline, and the other was that it was a spurious document that had been sent out and which they did not have the courage to combat quickly enough. Senator Steeling. The soldiers got to understand that they did not have to salute their superior officers? Mr. Stoeet. Certainly; that was true. Senator Steeling. Anct claimed that they stood on the same foot- iiif exactly as an officer ? Mr. Storey. Yes, sir. Senator Steeling. And were entitled to the same privileges and the same accommodations and everything? Mr. Storey. They did not go to that extent all at once, but that was a gradual development as they felt their power. The tendency, as they became familiar with their officers, was to become more so. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 231 Senator Overman. It has been said here that the Bolsheviki had great antipathy to the Yoimg Men's Christian Association. AVhy was that? Mr. Storey. Their attitude toward the Young Men's Christian Association, I should say, was twofold. I ought to say that up to the time the Young Men's Christian Association definitely allied it- self with the Czechs, it Avas tolerated in liussia and was permitted to do considerable work, and was giA en some facilities for its work ; but there came a time when, owing to the fact that it was working also with the Czechs who were fighting the Bolsheviki, they de- manded that it make a choice. As a matter of fact, I think that choice never actuallj- had to be made, because the American Govern- ment ordered its subjects out of Russia; but certainly the association was on the eve of having to make such a choice. The two reasons are, in the main, these, that owing to their past knowledge and con- ception of Christianity as exhibited in the Eussian Church, an instrument of the old regime, they were anti-Christian. To them that was what Christianity represented. The second reason was that they were suspicious that the American Young Men's Christian Asso- ciation "was in Russia for the purpose of assisting to keep Russia in the war, and was an instrument of the American Government and the capitalistic grou^js who supported the association in helping to re- store the moi'ale of the Russian Army, and the soldiers did not want that, nor did, of course, the Bolsheviki care for it; and I think it would be truth to say that the utterances of some of the association leaders as to the reasons for sending men to Russia and for sending men to make the effort there were that it was in order to hold the Russian Army on that front. Whether those utterances ever reached Russia or not I do not know. Certainlj' we had that to combat constantly. Senator Overman. When was it that you left Russia ? Mr. Stoeet. I left there the last of November. Senator Overman. After the signing of the armistice? Mr. STOiiET. Yes; after the signing of the armistice. I was in Siberia the latter part of the time I was there. Senator Overman. Can you go on and give us your judgment of the condition of things over there, the terrorism, and so on ? Mr. Storey. In the main, I think I could summarize the situation, as I looked at it, substantially as follows. May I preface that by saying that my interest was rather that of a student of the Govern- ment, because that has been my teaching field, and I was interested in it from the standpoint of politics and political science as mudfi as any other. During the time that I was in Russia I spent some time in Moscow, some time with the troops, and some time in Petro- grad. I was in Finland during the revolution in Finland and dur- ino- the period of the German occupation there. I was back in Russia and in Petrograd some time after the allied embassies left it, and in Moscow at the time of the peace conference, and have been in Siberia with the Czechs during the greater portion of their stay there, and was there prior to their arrival a. short time. In my dealings with the Bolshevik leaders I have generally had a courteous and, I should say on the whole, a frank reception and treatment. There was that satisfaction in dealing with them, in the 232 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. main. If you were at the source of authority, they did not mince words about what they would do or what they would not do. One of them told me frankly that they were tolerating our activities until they would be able to take over that kind of work. They did not propose to tolerate us anj- longer. One of them said frankly that they were anti-Christian, and said why, pointing to the past history of the Eussian Church as an illustration. I think this is a reaction, from talking with them and reading their pamphlets and their papers, and hearing them speak. They aspire, undoubtedly, to a world-wide rule of the proletariat. They do not stop at means which it is necessary to employ in order to achieve those ends, but on the other hand, there is this to be said, in part, for that. They have lived under a regime which knew no exceptions to the processes by which it attained its purposes, either, and I am disposed to think that a great many of the excesses and the outrages which un- doubtedly took place were the result of nervousness on the part of un- trained and ill-disciplined soldiers, or of armed groups, from an army many units of which were disbanded with their arms. ^lany of these soldiers wandered about over the country for weeks. They did not know where they were and did not know how to get to their homes. It "was also true that a great many of the men who took up with the Bolshevik movement were poor adventurers, unscrupulous, and went in on it because that was the way the tide was running. Senator Steeling. Did not that class of men have a good deal of influence among the poorer classes ? Mr. Storey. Undoubtedly. There were some very clever men among that group. A great many of the old secret police, I have heard, were actually in this movement, men of training and men of influence, although I know that a great many of the men who are in the movement are idealists of the most sincere type. Senator OvEpaiAx. Did you know Trotsky? Mr. Storey. No; I did not. I have heard him speak. I do not know him personally, however. Senator Overman. What was the character of his speech? What did he preach ? Mr. Storey. Well, he was making an address to a company of about 400 Lettish soldiers who were quartered in a prince's palace or clubroom in Petrograd, and the speech was largely inspirational. Senator Overman . Is he a fine talker? Mr. Storey. Yes; he is a rather striking man to see, and certainly a very imj^ressive speaker. I, of course, had the extreme disad- vantage, which a great many of us had, of having to hear him through an interpreter, and that is not always an accurate and satis- factor}^ method of getting the substance of what is said. Senator Steeling. In talkin.cr Avith those leaders, Mr. Storey, and with the more intelligent of them, did they seem to have the idea that they could form a. permanent society and government on the class principle, in which the proletariat should rule alone, without reference to what thej' termed the bourgeoisie, the tradesmen or middle-class people? ]Mr. Storey. Their conception, of course, of social organization was radically socialistic, and while I got the impression from them that for the present their attitude toward these groups was uncorri- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 233 promising, yet in theory they did recognize differences in ability between men. They would not under normal circumstances, I think, have objected to a teacher soTiet. for example; in fact, they had one in Vladivostok when I reached there, and it sent its delegates to the assembly of the city just as did the ditch diggers and the factory workers, and other groups of workers. I do not have personal knowl- edge of the facts, but I understand that there has since been made a classification of workers which recognizes that there are some people Avho must do inside work, so lo speak, cluur work — that is, work of a sedentary character. They recognize, in other words, brain work, although it is not permitted to claim thereby a larger proportion of the total production of society. Does that answer your question ? I think there is no question that they had that idea. Senator SteeliiSig. The three classes which the Soviet constitution recognizes, as I understand it, are the laborers, the peasants, and the soldiers. Mr. Storey. Those are all member's Senator Steelixg. And they further declare in that constitiltion that no one belonging to the bourgeois class, the traders, or anyone making a profit on any in^•estnlent or receiving an income from in- vestments, shall participate in an election, or be elected to any position or office. Mr. Stoket. Substantially, I think that is their attitude to-day. Senator Sterling. They clo not say that their government is a democracy. Mr. Stoeet. Oh, no. I would say that it was quite a shock to me that I did not meet in Russia anyone, high or low, who had been in the United States, Bolshevik or non-Bolshevik, who cared to see American civilization duplicated in their own countiw. There was a very unfavorable impression as to our Government on the part of Russians that I met with. Senator Sterling. They really do not believe in representative government ; is not that true ? Mr. Stoeey. Their objection was not so much to our representative system as to our industrial system. Senator Sterling. Well, if carried out into government, politically, they did not believe in a government that would represent other than these three classes ? Mr. Stoeey. Their expectation is that they will soon reduce all to those three. They are, for example, achieving that purpose. Undoubtedly certain sections of the middle classes are having to sell themselves to the Soviets. Men with brains and wits are hiring out in order to live. I saw officers sweeping the streets. I have seen refined women selling newspapers. Their quarrel is not with the ability, but with the utilization of that, as they feel it does deprive others of something. Senator Oveeman. They have no respect for the educated lady of property ? Mr. Stoeey. She is forced into this, not by physical violence, as I know, but by necessity. If the funds of a doctor's household or a lawyer's household run out, they have to get out and make their living. Senator Oveeman. They have to do manual Avork? 234 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAUAXDA. Mr. Storey. Yes. Senator Sterling. Well, if they desire to or find it necessary to utilize those who are educated and who are intelligent, do they recog- nize any proportionate reward for services of that kind i Mr. Storey. They would claim, I think, that the reward >houkl be substantially equal. Senator Wolcott. Let me understand that. May I ask a question? I can understand things in concrete terms better than in any other way. Let me see if I understand that proposition. Is it this, that some lazy fellow who is just driven to make a .slight contribution in the way of work, who will not improve himself in anywise, who does not care whether he lives in a pig pen or a comfortable home, but yet does a little work. gets as much for it as a hard-working, eonseientitius, frugal individual ( Mr. Storey. Well, in practice that is the way it would work out. In theory, they do not recognize the human element in it. Senator Wolcott. They go on the theory that everybody does his best and everything should be equal, overlooking the fact that some who are forced will not do their best, but will do as little as they can. Mr. Storey. I have heard it said that it was not necessary for any man to work until his back ached; that enough could be produced without that. I have heard that remark in Russia. Senator Overtax. I want to ask you a question that I have asked others. To what extent have vou noticed anything of a Bolshevik movement in this country? Have you observed anything going on in this country as propaganda ? Mr. Storey. I have not taken particular notice of it since I re- turned, because I have been here on a rather highly specialized mis- sion, and have concentrated upon that. I have noticed in the circn- lars and other articles a keen and active desire to know about it. Invariably, wherever I go, I am questioned about it. As for evidences of organized activity, I simjily have not encountered it. if it exists, probably because I have not been circulating. Senator Sterling. Have you seen any of the publications made by the I. "W. W.. or under the auspices of the I. W. W., in this country, and do you know from them how they regard Bolshevism ? ^Ir. ST()Rf:Y. Xo : I have not. I met a former I. W. W. — I beheve in Siberia — who said he had been in the lumber camps of the West. He was apparently not as extreme as some of the gentlemen who are in authority over him. But my impression about the relation between the I. W. W.'s and t-he Bolsheviki from the other side ^vas this : The Bolsheviki were appealing to all discontented elements in other countries, irrespective of who they were. Beyond that I woidd not be able to make any direct connection between them. Senator Over^ian. They have the same flag? Mr. Storey. They recognize in them a protesting element — some- thing in common. Maj. HtJ3iES. ISIr. Storey, did you see any of the terrorism in Russia for the purpose of perpetuating control, at any of the places where you were ? Mr. Storey. I saw two sides of it. It was equally evident. I think, in Finland, where the reds had control, and on the other side of the line where the whites had control. I can not sav that I have a BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 235 feeling that any one group of the Russian population is moi'e fero- cious in its attitude toward the other than another group is. Maj. Humes. In other words, a state of civil war existed? Mr. Stoeet. Yes. Maj. HuMKS. Everyone is armed, and they are fighting ad libitum. Mr. Storey. Russia demobilized 7,000,000 men within a short period of time, and those men took thair arms with them in a great many cases, thousands, tens of thousands of them, and how much of the terrorism that exists is due to the want of a strong central authority, and how much of it is due to deliberate planning, I can not say ; I do not know. Senator Overman. We want to hold an executive session for an hour. We will excuse you. (Thereupon, at 4.55 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee went into executive [secret] session.) executive session. The following testimony was taken by the subcommittee in execu- tive session, and the name of the witnes.s is not disclosed because of the fact that the lives of his relatives in Russia might be endangered thereby : TESTIMONY OF MR. . (The Avitness was sworn by the chairman.) Maj. Humes. Mr. , suppose you go aliead and state the con- ditions in Russia as you found them, and especially conditions under the soviet government. Mr. . I have been in Russia close on to 15 years. I was located there with a factory, where we had about 2,500 workmen. Our factory is running to-day, and even last year, by our last jJ'ear's production we filled all our orders. But nobody can explain — I could not myself — just exactl_y how that was done or why it was. We seemed to have unusual control over the men there, and because of the fact that we were making machinery which was necessary for the country the workmen stood by us and we ran through. I have heard and read the statement that the present government in Russia is a Avorkmen's government and all that sort of thing. In my estimation that is absolutely false. I have been with the workmen. That is all I have done; I have been with the workmen and peasants. I never met Prof. Dennis there, or anj^ other of these gentlemen here, because I never had time. I was always with the workmen. The workingmen in Russia, in the factories, are not Bolsheviki, al- though they do not dare to say they are something else. Senator Steeling. Do you mean to put it so broad as that? Mr. . I do not mean to say that there are no workmen who are Bolsheviki. I am taking the workmen as a whole. It is the worst element out of each factory, the Avorst element out of the country, that has come to the top, and they are supporting the gov- ernment. They are supporting this government, being paid, of coui'se, large sums, and being given the privilege to loot or anything that they wish. It would not do to question a Red Guard. If he said something — told you to do something — you would not dare to ques- tion it. If you did that it would l)e as much as your life was worth. 236 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. And now, as I say, the government over there is made up of the loafers of the industrial and the peasant vrorld, and all the outsiders have come running in from other countries. If you go into Moscow to do any business with the Bolshevik governmtnt and you come upon any of the people higher up in the government, j^ou never meet anybodj^ that was born and brought up in Eussia up to the date of the revolution. You' meet a man that was born there, prob- ably, and went out and came in from the outside after the revolution was on. Those people are supposed to be worldng at salaries that are often to-day, I believe, below what the workingman was getting, below what it would take a man to live on, a decent living wage that he was supposed to be getting. In fact, they are getting much more money on the side and lots of them are making fortunes. In regard to the industries there, when the revolution started, tlie Bolshevik revolution around the 1st of November, 1917, the worlmien all went with the Bolsheviki. They were all Bolslieviki then, or nearly all, because the Bolsheviki told them '' Everji:hing is yours. Just take it. You have been opj^ressed.'' They sang such songs to those men that it certainly did turn their heads. Senator Sterling. But since that time? Mr. . Since that time things have changed. Three or four or five months after the revolution took place the workmen began to open up tlieir eyes, and saw that things were jiot as they thought they were. Thej^ are afraid to say so. You will very seldom get a workman to say tliat he is not a Bolshevik, but he Avill tell you in secret that he is not a Bolslievik. " But wliat can I do? " he will say. "I do not dare to say anyihing. I can not do anytliing." They are all terrorized, just as the peasants are. Maj. Humes. What are the means used to terrorize them? Mr. . Shooting them. Maj. Humes. Are shootings frequent? Mr. . Yes. Slaj. Humes. Tell us any incidents of that sort. Mr. . I can tell lots of incidents of jDeople disappearing by being shot. You know they are shot, because of the number of persong disappearing. In Russia they have no place to put them in jails. Tliey are just sliot, that is all. Maj. Humes. "Was there an eifort made to seize vour factory? Mr. . Yes. Maj. Hu:mes. ^'\'hat was the manner in which they undertook to seize it? What was tlie method used? Mr. . There was a decree put out that all factories were na- tionalized ; that the factories must be under the control of the work- men's committees, etc. We had a worl^men's committee in our f actor3% but our worlnnen's committee said to us, " We do not want to control this factory. We are perfectly satisfied as it is." Now. tliat is about the only factory in Russia where they have acted in tliat way. Why it is I can not tell you. It is possible that it was because of this. I would aslv, '" How is it that the workmen do not take our factory? Wliat is the difference between the other factories and our own case ? '' Tlicy would say, " In the other factories the owners do not work. They jnst come around occasionally. But here it is differ- ent. You are on the job before I am."' They would say to me, "We find the superintendents on the job before we are. You leave after BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 237 US." In that way we had their confidence and we were able to carry the. thing through. Xow, it wa,s not true in other factories in Russia that the managers were ahvays on the job. They were sometimes never onthe job. It is true that they were not as strict as we were about being around. Some of them would come around for an hour and look around and go away. So they took those factories, and ours they did not take. Senator Overmax. Where is your factory? Mr. . In European Eussia. Mr. Dennis. What happened to the factory? Mr. . I was at the factory in September. It shut down — absolutely shut down. Senator Steeling. Those were not the factories, were they, where the committee visited the manager and told him that they had come to take over the factory, that they were the owners of it now, and the manager just said, "All right, gentlemen; I must pay out 30,000 rubles next Saturday. Here are the pajjers, etc.; take them"? And thev replied to him, saying, "That is your job." Mr. . Yes. Senator Sterling. And he told them in reply that if they wei-e going to take the factory they must take the responsibility. Mr. . Yes. Senator Sterling. And that changed the color of things. Mr. . That is true in many, many cases. Let me tell you what I saw at one factory. The factory was shut down. They had a lot of good men that had worked for years, and I tried to get some of them. I was sitting with the manager talking as one of the men came in and left a note on his table. He said, " Just a minute." In a few minutes the same man came back and said, " They will not wait. They Avant you right away." He said, ■' You see I am busy. What can I do? " " It is the committee." " I can not do anything : it is the workmen's committee and I can not do anything with them." I said, "What is up now? " He said, "I do not know. Let them come in." So I said good-by and went away. He told me afterwards, " They came in and ordered me out of my house, took mj household furniture and everything, and I am out in the street." He was cleaning up papers and things. That is what happens to 90 per cent of the factories. Maj. Humes. How long did they operate that factory? Mr. . They never operated it. Maj. Hu3iES. Just closed it down? Mr. . Just closed it down. Senator Oa'erman. What became of the operatives, the workmen? Did they go into the army? Mr. — . The workmen just scattered, looking for food. Senator Overman. Looting, I suppose. Mr. . Yes. Well I will say, in regard to why our factory was not nationalized, that the workmen, Avould not allow the government to nationalize it sayino", " If 3^011 nationalize this factory you will close it up the same as the others, and we want ' our ' factory to work." Senator Sterling. Because of the goods produced? Mr, . Possibly. And we had kept telling the workmen right alono-, "Do not jump at these things. Keep back, and let the other 238 BOLSHEVIK propaga>:da. fe]lo\\-s try out their experiments, and if it is good perhaps we wil] do it." So when they saw what the other factories did, that they Avere all shut up in a week or two, our workmen thought that they had better not do this. The government sent down to a committee to say they would shoot our workmen's committee if they did not take over our factory, and oui' workmen's committee came to us and said, " "What can we do '. They are going to nationalize the factory and shut us doAvn." '" Well," we said. '" hold on, and let us stand together and we can probably do something."' We fought it out with the government and the workmen said that they would not work for the government, and that if they touched any of us they would go out on strilve and woukl not work. They said that the gov- ernment could never turn out a macliine. So, in that way that affair blew over. AYc went into that matter pretty well with our work- men's committee and found out what the cause of this was. and what started it. It had gone ^long 8 or 10 months without talk of nationalizing our factory, they had kind of gone around us. but suddenly it came uf). After we went into it we found it was about the same as in other case-., somebody looking for the job of manag- ing the factory. When they find a factory they will go to the Bolsheviki and say, '" Here is a job. Give me this f jictory and I will run it." Senator Overman. Does he run it or not? Mr. . Whether it ^-uns or not, he gets his pay ; and if it does not run, if they do not manufacture anything, the government gives him money to pay the men Avith. I know an instance of a factory a few miles fi'om ours where the gOA'ernment spent 60,000,000 rubles to run the factorv for three months, and in that time they produced goods Avorth 400,000 rubles. Xoav. if it took 60,000,000 rubles to pro- duce goods Avorth 400,000 rubles, that explains the Avay factories are run under Bolsheviks. Senator Overman. What sort of a factory Avas it I Mr. . A locomotive Avorks. Senator Sterling. If that is a fair sample of the Avay in Avhich the goA ernment runs them, nationalizing them is not an entire suc- cess. Mr. . Yes: they have failed to keep the workmen satisfied and they have killed the hen that laid the golden egg. In order to keep the Avorkmen quiet tliey pay them, and the workmen drink tea and read newspapers and smoke cigarettes in the shops instead of Avorking. Senator Sterling. What about the value of that money? ]Mr. . It is the only means of purchasing they have got — that money. Senator Sterling. It is paper money representing rubles? ]Mr. . Yes, and Avith that they buy AA'hat they can. But they can not buy much. Senator Sterling. Has not that money been depreciating all the time ? ^Ir. . Certainly: you can go and buy something to-day that would cost 30 rubles and to-morrow it Avould co-t 80. Senator Sterling. Do you knoAv Avhat the extent of the deprecia- tion is in the Eussian ruble ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 239 Mr. -. I do not know. Let lis take it this way. I used to buy a suit of clothes for 60 or 70 rubles. Now, I doubt if you could get one for 2,000 rubles. Mr. Dennis. And you would hare to hunt for it to buy it at that. Senator Steeling."^ Two thousand rubles for that which thereto- fore cost 60 or 70 rubles ? Mr. . Yes ; almost forty times. Senator Overjeax. When did you leave Russia ? Mr._ . I crossed the frontier on the 7th of October. Maj. HiTMES. What experience did you have with fines — as to being fined '. Mr. . The g'overnment tried to fine us in every way, shape, and manner — that is, to levy taxes. We refused to pay. The govern- ment used to get at the workmen's committee and ask, " What kind of a revolutionary shop are you running? " We told the committee, "Do not be hard on us or we will get out." In most cases they did just the opposite ; but they tried to put taxes on us in every way. They were afraid to use force on us, and our committee backed us lip by refusing to do what they wanted it to do ; and then we had 300 armed men at the factory. We had 300 men fully armed and trained, so that if anything happened they would start a little row. It is pretty close to the city, and they would not want anything started there. It went along for a long time, and I left Eussia, and it was not paid. None of the taxes were paid. One tax was 900,000 rubles. In one of the reports that has been made since I came back one of the men writes that they are being pushed pretty hard to pay. Senator Steeling. The taxes were imposed by the Bolshevik gov- ernment ? Mr. . Yes. Senator Overiman. Nine hundred thousand rubles ? Mr. . Altogether, about four and a half million rubles; that is, in ordinary tax. If they think a man has anything at all, they will tax him for all he has got. Senator Sterling. Were you taxed pretty high under the old regime ? Mr. . Xothing like that. If we paid a tax of .50,000 rubles, we thought that was pretty big. The figures now run into millions. Now, if you pay this tax to-day, in two weeks maybe they will come around to collect the same tax again. We pay that into the local soviet, but we do not know Avhere it goes to. AVe have not any idea. Before I came over from Eussia I tried to get out by way of Siberia to the Czecho-Slovak front, and I was in Nijni Novgorod, where Prof. Dennis was. I even called to see him, but he was gone. I had about a month going from door to door with peasants, go- ing right through the country, just knocking on the door and asking them to let me in at night. I spoke Eussian well, and I used to have some pretty good talks with the peasants, and I tried to get their idea of the Bolsheviki situation. The peasants in Eussia are abso- lutely opposed to the Bolsheviki. Before they would let me into the house they would ask. "Are you a Bolshevik?" And when I told them I was not a Bolshevik but that I was an American, then they would open everything and give me anything that I wanted, when they knew that 1 was an American. But they Avould not let me in 240 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. until they knew that I was not a BoLhovik. They treated me very fine. Now, as to elections in Eussia. I will tell you of an election that I saw in this town. I talked with a man that participated in it. At one place they had a soviet which was elected just at the beginning of the Bolshevik revolution, and it ran along for a whole year. Thev were in jDower, but the Czecho-Slovaks were coming up and the peo- ple, the peasants all around, would say. "' When are they coming? Why do they not come ''. ^Vhy do the allies not come I The allies are right close up." They used to point to some place where you could say that the allies were. I do not know how they used" to find it out, but it passed from mouth to mouth. In the city which is the capital of the state of Xovgorod, where there was a soviet, they heard that the soviet in this town of Xijni Xovgorod was not as Bolshevik as it should be, and the ]:)eople around there were pretty anxious that the Czecho-Slovaks shoulcl come in; so one day they sent their men down there, three delegates, to meet and talk with them, and the soldiers rounded up as many of the members of the soviet as they could and shot some of them, but some of them got away. Senator Sterling. Just for the reason that they were not Bol- shevik, they were shot? Mr. . That is all. Then they called a meeting of all the peasants who were elected to represent the diiferent villages around— this was a county' seat; that is what it Avas. Senator Steeling. A county soviet? Mr. . They called them in to hold another election and one of the men told me this story. Here are the very words that they used at this election. They called these peasants in and one of these men from the capital said to them, "' We have got to elect a new soviet. This soviet is going to be Bolshevik. If you elect any man to this soviet that is not a Bolshevik we will shoot him. Any man who is here that is not a Bolshevik can get out." Well, they pretty nearly all went out. A few stayed around. 1 do not know whether they were Bolshevik or what they were. They had some elections, but they did not elect enough men. Whether they could not find enough candidates or whether there were not enough If^ft in the paity I don't know. So one of them just went around the village asking who were Bolshevik, and they went over the village and picked out men for that soviet. I looked into the character of one man protty well and I found that he was a drunk- ard, had never owned, you might say. the shirt on his back; just a thug. He was one of the representatives. He was called in there and put in, and told " You are elected." That is the way they car- ried on the election there, and I think you will find that that story is typical of how they elect their Soviets all over Eussia. Senator Sterling. How are those members of the soviet appor- tioned among the population ; what is the ratio ? Mr. . TJiat I have forgotten. I think it is 1 to every ^.I.OOO workmen and 1 to every 42.">,000 peasants. There has been a com- plaint about it on the part of the peasants. (Thereupon, at .5.30 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee adjourned until to-morrow. Friday, February 14, 1910. at 2.30 o'clock p. m.) BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. FRIDAY, rEBRTTAKY 14, 1919. United States Senate, Subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary, Washington, D. G. The subcommittee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 2.30 o'clock p. m., in room 226, Senate Office Building, Senator Lee S. Overman presiding. Present: Senators Overman (chairman), King, Wolcott, Nelson, and Sterling. Senator Overman. The committee will come to order. Maj. Humes, will you please call the next witness? Maj. Humes. I will call Madame Breshkovskaya. TESTIMONY OF MES. CATKERINE BEESHKOVSKAYA. (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) Maj. Humes. When did you leave Eussia? Mrs. Breshkovskaya. I left Russia two months ago. Maj. Humes. When you left Eussia what was the condition of the schools in Eussia ? Were they in operation ? Mrs. Breshkovskaya. We had no schools, we had no teachers, we had no pencils, no inks. Even when I was in Moscow, for months we could not get ink. When you did get it, it was very bad. Maj. Humes. Do you know whether the schools are in operation in any part of Eussia? Mrs. Breshkovskaya. There were schools last year, but now they are empty. The teachers were thrown out by the Bolsheviki, and many had nothing to do, because they had no furniture, no materials to teach the children. There were also no books. I was asked by my teachers to come to America and to pray, and pray very deeply, to bring some millions of books back to our peasant children, for we had no books. Maj. Humes. When you loft Eussia, were any of the factories in Russia running? Mrs. Breshkovskaya. Perhaps you have read in your papers and perhaps you have learned from your own people in the Eed Cross and the Young Men's Christian Association in Eussia that there is no clothing, no food, and no goods. Even our cooperations have noth- ing to sell to the peasants, for we have no industry now at all. The factories are destroyed, and there are no importations, for we have no transportation ; no railroads for transportation. Eussia gives the privilege to every American to come there, and it is our custom and habit to give preference especially to the Ameri- 85723—19 16 241 242 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. can people. For many years we were accustomed to treat the Ameri- can people as our friends. Up until this time the Russian people were fond of the American people, and they were not afraid of their, intervention. Industry is quite destroyed, and we have no furniture for the use of our schools. We have no machines ; we have no tools, no scissors, no knives, or any of such things. We have here many merchants who came to beg something for Russia, some goods ; but nothing is running to transport them. Senator O^^erman. Where is your home, madam ? Mrs. Beeshkovskata. My home, sir, is Russia. Senator Overman. What part of Russia? Mrs. Breshkovskaya. All over. I have no home of my own; no house, no home. Senator Nelson. What part of Russia were you born in ? Mrs. Beeshkovskata. You know, perhaps, that half of my life I spent in prison and in Siberia. Senator Overman. How long were you in prison ? Mrs. Beeshkovskata. Thirty-two years. Senator Overman. Thirty-two years in prison ? Mrs. Breshkovskata. Yes; in prison, in exile, and at hard work, altogether, in the hands of our despotism, for 32 years ; that is all. Senator Overman. What is your age now ? Mrs. Beeshkovskata. Seventy-five. Senator Wolcott. For what were you in prison ? Mrs. Breshkovskaya. For socialist propaganda among my people. We have had a dynasty of moiiarchs, who were terrible despots, in Russia. Perhaps you have all heard that 15 years ago I was in America, and I told all that to your citizens. Senator Overman. How does the condition of the Russian people to-day compare with the condition when you first came over here? Mrs. Beeshkovskata. We Russian socialists and revolutionists were so happy to see Russia free two years ago, and we hoped when we got quite free to get excellent laws for her freedom all over Russia, under the government of Kerensky. We got political free- dom and personal and social freedom, and we hoped to begin to build the Russian State on a new form. We could do it, for the government was in the hands of the people, and all the peasants and all the workmen and all the soldiers were together and accepted those laws. We hoped to get land for all, and the Kerensky govern- ment wrote many times in the papers and announced that the people ATOukl get the land, but that we should wait until there could be a national assembly which would confirm all these new laws. So I say that for six months the Russian people were free, and had in their hands every possibility to have order and to have freedom, and to have land. Senator Overman. Have you freedom there now? Mrs. Breshkovkaya. Perhaps you know, sir, that many years ago the German Government sent her spies over to Russia and pi'e- pared this war ; and not only the Germans, but many Russians who were abroad. When the revolution Avas on and everybody was free, and Russia was about to have a constituent assembly, out of Germany BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 24 £ came Lenine and Trotsky with their group, and all these traitors of Russia came to begin their propaganda. Perhaps you will say it was the fault of our provisional government not to take them and put them into prison. Perhaps you will say it ; but the government was so liberal and hoped to see our people so happy with new possibilities, that it would not make any arrests. It was too liberal. And, as vou will remember, it was a time of war, and Russia was weary of this war, and there were 20,000,000 Russians, grown up boys and men, who were sent to the front, and for three years Russia was forced to work only for these 20,000,000, making nothing for herself. The people were tired and weary, and our soldiers, when they got the propaganda from Germany and from the Bolsheviki who came into Russia, were very glad to hear it. They believed that the German population were brothers of our Russian soldiers, that the German soldiers and the Russian soldiers were brothers, so they had no reason for continuing the war. Then Lenine and Trotsky, with the aid of German money, over- flowed Russia with their propaganda. We also have now many, many millions of paper money printed by Lenine and Trotsky, and it is a great misfortune for Russia. All the people who served our tyrants in Russia, the old bureaucratic class, the gendarmes, all those of the old regime, became Bolsheviki, and they made a large company who would overthrow the regime of Kerensky in Russia. After October of 1917, when we saw that the Kerensky govern- ment was overthrown, with all faithful servants of our people we immediately addressed our hopes and our prayers to our so-called allies. I myself, 14 months ago, wrote a letter to the ambassador ot America, Mr. Francis, exposing to him all that was done; that we had no national assembly in which people could express their views ; that it was overthrown by the Bolsheviki, and instead we came under two gendarmes, Lenine and Trotsky. Our people, believing perhaps at first that they would do some good, even listened to them. Lenine said himself, " Nothing will be of us. There will be another czar after the Bolshe^'iki. But a legend will remain in Russia after us." But now, these days, all say Russia is in fault. I wrote to your embassy in Russia that if you would be so good as to give us some support (from 50,000 good soldiers of your armies) the Bolsheviki would be overthrown. Yet I got no answer. Meanwhile in Siberia, and over all Russia, the criminals were set at liberty, and after the Brest-Litovsk peace we got in Moscow two mighty rulers, Lenine, and Gen. Mirbach from Prussia. He was there, and he was all over Russia. He asked to get all the Germa.i and Magyar prisoners to be gathered and armed, to malce new troop.i against Russia. He asked, too, to disarm at once the Czecho-Slovaks, who forced their way to Vladivostok to get to France. Lenine obeyed these orders and sent troops to do it. The Czecho-Slovaks had no more desire to remain in Russia. They wished to go to France. Rus- sia, after the Brest-Litovsk peace, could not use their forces, so that they tried to get to Vladivostok, and their little army of 80.000 troops were dispersed over the Volga and awav about Siberia. Mirbach understood that this was so much good for those soldiers to j::3i "> France and come back against Germany, so he gave the order to^ 244 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. disarm them. The first troops, who were nearest to ^Moscow, were disarmed. Yet they left some arms with them. Then IMirbach ordered to disarm tliem all — every Czecho-Slovak soldier. Then came some Eed Guards from the part of the Bolsheviki out of Moscow, with some oificers, and they asked the Czecho-Slovaks to be disarmed. The Czecho-Slovaks understood that if disarmed they would be as prisoners and left in Siberia, and that Mirbach would make of them all he wished ; so they decided not to go to Siberia and not to he disarmed, but to turn toward the west, and they began to fight — these gallant soldiers. First, they took the town of Nicolaievsk, and then Omsk and then Tobolsk. All the time Lenine and Trotsk}' and all the so-called Bolsheviki were entertained and given support from Germany by the German Kaiser and liis Government. I do not know if the German people were in this complot. Certainly German soldiers, many of them, were, for they would make show of their brotherhood to our soldiers. After disorder grew, after all our factories and mills were de- stroj'ed in Moscow and Petrograd, all our depots and supplies which had been provided by our zemst^'o, by Kerensky's government, all that was given to the Germans. The Bolsheviki could not oppose in any wav. They were quite dependent on the German Government and Mil-bach and the other German generals, for we had no army, and he would have the support of the German Government. Senator Steeling. Were German soldiers helping the Bolsheviki against the Czecho-Slovaks ? Mrs. Beeshkovskata. Help themi Against the Czecho-Slovaks? Certainly, and the Czecho-Slovaks combated vtry well with the Ger- man people and the Magyars. They hated them, yes. Now they are entirely for themselves, and as they have their own republic, they would go back. Now Russia will be left quite alone. Yes ; if we had our own forces ; the Russian forces against the Bolsheviki. We had no organization to fight with them. The Bolsheviki grew and grew in forces. Idle men, who did not have any work, for all the factories were shut, nolens volens became Bolsheviki, too, because there was nothing to eat. The industries were all gone. The factories were shut, and there was no material to work on and no desire to work on the part of the workers. They said all the bourgeois had to be over- thrown, and the workmen would work alone to make our industries. Not so many, but a few, of the Bolsheviki gave the example of giving the factories into the hands of the workmen. In one or two months it all was destroyed. Nobody worked, and they could not continue be- cause they were inexperienced in these matters. Our peasants alone are working in the villages. There is not any industry since then. For instance, take the coal mines; it is so easy to use them. But they could not use them. You must feel, yourself, the need of the Russian people. We ask you for everything. We ask you to give us paper, to give us scissors, to give us matches, to give us clothes, to give us leather to make boots. We ask everything; not because we are so poor, but all our riches are under the ground. Russia is destroyed in industry and husbandry. There is no industry at all. What'we need is to" have handicrafts in Russia, to have schools, and to spin and weave, and to BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 241 make boots; because we are naked. I am ashamed to expii^ss myself that we are like mendicants now; that ^^'e must ask everything,' ever things like this [indicating a penholder], but it is so. Vou'know when you send your Eed Cross you send your medicines and (•vi>r\ sort of necessity. If you came without your own medicines and othei things, without your clothing, you would do nothing, because there if nothing to work with. ' Also I assert that the Bolsheviki destroyed Enssia and divided h and corrupted the people of Russia. They turned loose on the peo- ple all the criminals that were out and in the prisons. They are mm with the Bolsheviki. They have ne\-er a yoA ic-< com|:0£;:;;l ^,J all h ,.:. ji people. They are the refuse of our people in Euasia. And now you ask, how does the people support such conditions '( Dear me, our people supported for 300 years our desj^otism, and when 15 years ago 1 was here in America I was asked '' If youi despotism is so bad, why do you people stand it? " Our peoi^le arc illiterate. Our people never had access to the government ; never hac sense to deal with the political questions; ncA-er were pei'mitted tc read papers where was stated the truth. Our people are like children There is a person here who has spent three years in Russia, ami he ■says to me, " Oh, yes ; to understand the psychology of your people one must understand the psycholog}' of children." They are good- hearted and openhearted, and they ha^■e confidence in everv'.ue especially in those who after so many hundreds of cycles of repres- sion and poverty and suffering will promise them to ha^o peace, as did the Bolsheviki ; to have bread, to have schools, to have everything They did believe it. Now. they do not believe anyone. But thcic i; nothing now to have. And after that, I do not hope that any of oui allies will be so generous — I will say so bold — as to give us armed help. I do not hope. I see everybody" is so much involved with their own affairs and in- terests, that Russia is left alone. Yet the Russian people woidd be raised up by those who would give them help, Avho would give them tokens of their friendship not only with words and not only with promises, but with real help ; to secure our railroads, for instance; tc have for us school books ; to have for us merchandise and several sorts of machines; for our peasants began to be accustomed t" have machines out of Germany and out of America. Now, we have none at all. All that wc had before is used up, now. For five years we have not been working for ourselves; for five years, three years with Germany and noAv two years in civil war. Lenine and Trotsky prom- ised to make peace and to have peace in Russia, a'^d after their peace with the Germans in Brest-Litovsk they said. " We will rec-.niSLruct Russia "; and when German troops came into west Russia, and made every sort of disorder, then Trotsky exclaimed, " We shall have a crusade against Germany: " yet in tw,o weeks Lenir.c made a decla- ration, " We are not so "foolish as to begin again to make vrar with somebody, for certainly otherwise our efforts to deepen and dcoi)en the revolution would fail," and instead of beginning to make war with the German people, they began to make civil war in Russia ; and instead of having one front, between Russia and Germany, we have now, I will not say five, but I will say hundreds of fronts all over Russia, for everywhere we have gangs and bands. Now. the 246 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. people, being starving, being naked, they will go and serve Trotsky or any leader or any general, who will make them brigands. Here they turn around, and Avith Germans, and others, prisoners of Russia, all Eussia is robbed, and all Russia has nothing now, and all Russia will fight, perhaps, for many years among themselves, before they get out of this boiling pot, and will find out an issue for themselves. 1 will not say anybody is in fault, no; but we are left alone, and we do not now hope to get any support from any side. It will be very hard for us to fight in our own countiy for five, six, I do not know how many years, before we begin to be reasonable and strong- minded, and understand our own interests. Yes, the people is depressed, morally and spiritually depressed ; and it is not so fresh, you know, not at all. Depressed, the people is. And now bolshevism will not be finished in Russia so soon, for we see now that it spreads more and more around Russia. When I was talking to one member of our elected government. Gen. Boldoreff, he said, " See. in some years we are going to give help and restore order in Europe." Certainly, Russia shall help herself, and have rest and order, and then it is quite sure that this venom of Bolshevism will die out. You in America, you mix together Bolshevism and socialism. I have been a socialist for 50 years, and 1 wished to get my people free, and have all political rights in Russia;' and when two years ago we got them, then I would say to myself, '" Now we will construct, and not destroj\ We will construct; we Avill raise our people and build and construct and create, to make a beautiful place out of Russia." And the Bolsheviki are now saying, " We must destroy, and destroy, and destroy." I have a letter from one of m}'' young partners who brought his wife from Petrograd to ^Vladivostok. Everywhere where the Bolshe- viki are, there are no intelligent people; there is no intelligence; all killed or hidden, for they destroyed not only our factories and our mills, and not only our schools, but they destroyed, they killed, all the intelligent people, the best professors, the best professional men, the best men we had in Russia, hundreds of them; and I myself was hidden for two months in Petrograd, and for six months in Moscow before I left it. Thousands of old socialists, revolutionists, are killed by the Bolsheviki as being reactionary and counter-revolutionists. Senator Overman. Why did you hide^ jMrs. Breshkovskava. Oh. dear me ! I was illegal in Eussia. I have friends who hid me. I expected to live in Russia, in this part where there are not Bolsheviki, and to work with my iDeasants. Our peasants aie everywhere; and evcrj' peasant is so tired of tlie Bol- shevism that he only says. "' If only some good people would come and rescue us ! " Very oiten I have said, " For shame ! You ask help of them, and you ask the American people. Why do you not help your- selves? " " Oh, we are so tired; and we are disarmed." You see, the (yerman Government was so clever, had so much foresight ; and all our soldiers who were discharged were disarmed before this coup detat. Senator Sterling. So that the peasants had no arms '. Mrs. Beeshkovskaya. \o ?rnis, no powder. They were without anv arri-s. And the Bolsheviki have all things. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 247 I will finish my speech by repeating what I have said, if you Americans could help us and aid us to have in Eussia a national con- stituent assembly, it would appease all the people. When it is said that you Americans do not know how you can act, it is not essential, to my mind. You could act ; and in Eussia you can not understand how it is. It is quite simple. We are an original people, perhaps; but we need what all other people need. We need order ; we need to work ; we need political freedom ; we need all that is due to every free nationality; a quite democratic government; not, as they claim, any Lenine and Trotslcy, but a government elected by the people. We must have good transportation. We have now none. Also, we must have schools. Maj. Httmes. Which government treated the i^eople of Eussia the best, the old regime government or the Trotsky-Lenine government ? Mrs. Bkeshkovskaya. Ah, perhaps many people are now, espe- cially among the peasants, calling for the Czar again. They were denied paper and newspapers and education, but they could work; and that is now impossible. Everywhere we have fighting fronts, and everywhere the people are persecuted, and everywhere we have Sov- iets, and the Soviets are composed of people sent out from Petrograd and Moscow, that rule the district. Certainly the mindful would never have a tsar again; never, never! Even the most of the people never would have him again ; and we will fight until we have a democratic government. But when we compare this view with the conditions under Lenine and Trotslcy, if it would endure twenty years, for instance, Eussia would be dead. The people would be kept corrupted. Senator Nelson. Do you believe that Lenine and Trotslcy were the tools of Germany ? Mrs. Beeshkovskaya. I do not believe it ; I am sure of it, sir. Senator Nelson. Do you believe that they received German money ? Mrs. Beeshkovskaya. Yes. They also make this paper money and flood Eussia with it. Every pood of our rye bread now costs 500 or 600 rubles. Senator Nelson. Do you believe that the bolshevik government of Lenine and Trotsky is a tyranny and a danger and a menace to Eussia ? Mrs. Beeshkovskaya. It is. But more than a danger, it is destroy- ing Eussia. It is on the verge of being quite destroyed. Senator Nelson. Do you believe that this government will be de- tructive of the liberties of the Eussian people ? _ Mrs. Beeshkovskaya. Alrea,dy we have no liberty in Eyssia. No newspapers except the bolshevik newspapers are permitted, sir, and therefore you read only bolshevik newspapers. There are no universi- ties no colleges, and no schools. All of them are shut. Certainly Eussia will struggle and will shed her own blood for many, many years to become free. We have no freedom in Eussia. Senator Nelson. Is this government by Lenine and Trotsky worse for the Eussian people than even the bad government of the Czar ? Mrs. Beeshkovskaya. What a question do you ask, sir ! I, for in- stance would suffer for twenty years not to have a czar; but simple people' who work for their bread would certainly prefer a czar to 248 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Trotsky and Lenine. I can not believe that 180,000,000 people \TOuld have to suffer and struggle without any peace. It is impossible. It will be finislied. And if Eussia will have a czar, if Eussia will have dictators, if Eussia will have bolsheviki, it will be the fault of our allies, because they do not help us. Senator Nelson. What is the feeling of the Eussian peasants to- wards the bolshe^•ik government? How do vou stand with reference to it? ^Irs. Beeshkovskaxa. They are all against the bolsheviki. When the bolsheviki come to the village and ask for bread and grain and po- tatoes and meat, they fight with them. They fight with sticks against them. They will not be robbed. They have been robbed by German troops and robbed by the bolshevik troops, and robbed by Magyar troops. The bolsheviki consider the peasants bourgeois if they have a cow, some grain, and some potatoes. Only proletariat, only those who have nothing at all, can go about Eussia and rob everyone. We have no banks, we ha^-e no stores or shops, we have no ships, we have nothing now, and we have thousands and thousands of people without work, who join the troops and go all over Eussia. Senator Steeling. I would like to ask what you think of the withdrawal of the allied forces from Eussia — the French, British, and American troops, that were there? Mrs. Beeshko^'skaya. You ask only about the American troops? Senator Steeling. All allied troops. Mrs. Beeshkovsivata. I shall be frank and say that the French and British troops, especially the British troops in Omsk, were in fault for the last coup d'etat. Certainly if thej^ had not had those troops they would not have made us appoint dictators instead of electing people. Senator Steeling. I do not quite understand. Mrs. Beeshkovskata. The French and British troops in Omsk are responsible for the coup d'etat which put a dictator in in place of an elected assembly, and of course we are not in favor of such kind of troops. Senator Steeling. But aside from that, do you think the presence of allied troops, American, French, and British, aside from the cir- cumstance that you name, would be helpful to Eussia ? Mrs. Beeshkovskaya. If they should fight with us against the bolsheviki they would aid us, but when they leave the bolsheviki to do what they wish to do, it will not help us. Eussia has no arms, no munitions, nothing, and the allied forces are coo few; 1,000 British, 2,000 French, and 1,000 Italians. Already our neighbors, the Japanese, are sending in their troops, and instead of having in Eussia the American intervention, American aid, we will have the intervention of Japanese troops, with very selfish intentions. And perhaps some dictator will be able to use them to give the whole of Siberia to the Japanese people and to keep Eussia for some years more in civil war. I assure you, sir, there will be a time when the Japanese and German people will have an alliance; and certainly the first who will suffer will be Eussia. You will not help us unless you keep out such invaders as the Japanese, and help us to get rid of the criminals such as the Bolsheviki. Of that I am sure. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 24 { Senator Sterling. Do you think a sufficient allied force in Russis would help to restore the constituent assembly to power and giv( you a democratic government? Mrs. Beeshkoyskata. Not only a lai-ge force of troops would help but if committees would come to Russia and ask to have an assembl] formed in Russia, it would help. If you had come to our help i year ago, perhaps 20,000 of your troops would have been sufficient Now it will take 50,000; not less and perhaps more. Fifty thousanc armed troops that would fight would help us to reestablish the con stituent assembly. Senator Sterling. Do you think, Madame, that an army of 15,00( or 20,000 allied troops would have prevented the establishment of i Bolshevik government in Moscow? Mi's. Breshkoyskaya. I am sure of it. Even yesterday a Czecho Slovak said to me that if they were not supported they could not hole out; they could not fight alone. The Russian people have no arm and the BolsheYiki would be sure to get through into IJkrainia, anc with the aid of the German troops they would go straight througl the country. When you ask how many troops would be needed, r depends. If you put a million troops in a place and they did noth ing, they would not be as good as 50,000 troops who could fight. I you get 50,000 troops that will fight, that will be enough. Senator Steeling. Do you think such troops would be welcome( by all but the Bolsheviki? Mrs. Breshkovskay'a. Certainly, if they asked for them a year age They are crying, " Sa^•e us. Come and defeat the Bolsheviki, for w can not exist. There is no work in Russia." Senator Steeling. Suppose this BolshcY-ik rule goes on, and as ; result of Bolshevik rule there is disorder nnd chaos in Russia, will i not lead eventually to the domination of Russia by Germany ? Mrs. Beeshkovskay'a. Certainly. Senator Steeling. You think it would? Mrs. Beeshkovskaya. If Bolshevik rule ctmtinues, Japan and G;er many will cut Russia into pieces. That is quite plain, for havini no forces to fight against them, and always occupied with her in terior disorders, certainly those two neighbors will come in and mak of Russia their own colonies. The Japanese have already begun t' make them. They already have bought houses and materials an( goods in the east of Siberia, and have openly confessed that it is t their interest to have Siberia in their hands, to keep for themselves and they say, " We can not permit anyone, including the America] people, to ask us to take a subordinate position." Senator Steeling. Is there any possibility of America helping in dustrially as long as the Bolsheviki rule? Mrs. Beeshkovskaya. While the Bolsheviki rule ? Would you as. us to sit at the table with criminals and deal with them? If all Rus sia is "destroyed, and all the people shot or hung, it means nothiuj to them. All they want is to sit and rule, after they have corruptei our people, corrupted our soldiers, and corrupted our sailors am corrupted our workers. Only peasants they could not corrupt, be cause in every village there are only a very few Bolsheviki. Senator Steeling. And on that question you feel that you can no treat or deal with the Bolsheviki? 260 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mrs. Breshkovskata. Certainly not; not when they deceive every- body and destroy e\ eryone, especially honest people. Honest and in- telligent people are destroyed in Russia. I say to you that for the head of Kerensky they promised 100,000 rubles — only to have his head. Senator Sterling. Madam, have you read the appeal of the Eus- sian Economic League to the people of America in regard to the withdrawal of American forces from Russia ? Mrs. Breshkovskata. No, I have not. Senator Sterling. It is an appeal by five or six whose names I do not now recall. jNIrs. Breshkovskata. I do not remember. I read, sir, two months ago that your good President wanted to give from your American bank $5,000,000 to aid commerce between America and Russia and Russian corporations and people. That is very well. But I ask you what will be the use of this proposition if we have already Ameri- can goods in Vladivostok, many millions of tons, and we can not move them, and speculators get hold of them and hold them for high prioi'S, and thej' can not move them because there are no rail- ways^ Sugar costs 20 rubles in Kharbin, and they sell it for 800 rubles in Omsk. It is impossible to get goods from that place. We have no sugar. To'day- some lady asked me Avhy we had no sugar. A short time ago we had no grain, and we had no oil — no kerosene ;;il. We have no bread. There is some bread in the villages, but in Moscow tliere is not. Neither is there any in Petrogracl. They have no grain. \\\ of our provinces are depending one upon another, and will have to do so until we have railroads and communication on the rivers. Until then we Avill always be depending upon one another. All improvements in husbandry and in agriculture have been stopped, and any improvements in industry have been stopped. We have none now. Bolshevists got their principles mainly from the socialists, and misused them. Instead of creating in Russia they began to destroy and overthrow what was done until now. I am surprised that you, who are so clever and so mighty, you do not go and see yourselves what has happened to Russia. But do not see only the Bolsheviki, in some towns, but go thi-ough all towns and ask our people and our workmen what is their idea. Russia is 12,000 miles long and 6,000 miles broad, and it can not be known by any except those that spend all their lives, as to what is there, what is their people, and what is their country, and what are their suffer- ings, and what are their needs. For 2.5 years I had to learn and for 50 years to struggle against every evil and every misfortune which our people suffered. Senator Sterling. To what extent, madam, are there soviet gov- ernments in Siberia? Mrs. Breshkovskata. There are none. Perhaps somewhere there ^re, but I do not know of any in Siberia. Senator Sterling. In European Russia are there any soviet gov- ernments that are not controlled by the Bolshevik element ? Mrs. Breshkovskata. Every soviet government now springs up controlled by brigands, like bubbles out of the water. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGAWDA. 25 Senator Steeling. They do not have to be residents of the town o •district in order to beccane members of the soviet? Mrs. Breshkovskaya. Now, they come with guns and take posses sion of the Soviets. If the Eussian people could have been organizec they -^^ould have overthrown the Bolsheviki and the Soviets long age But there has been a collapse of forces, a collapse of spirit, and w can not accuse our people. They have suffered all through the cen turies, as serfs under a despotic government, and now in this terribl v.ar they ha-^-e suffered much. Many mothers had six boys at th front. They are quite ignorant of their country. The people in th provinces have no conception of what is going on around them Every peasant knows only his village, his district, and nothing more Yet we will work, and we will learn, and some day we will be strong, religious people. We are religious. Maj. Humes. Is there a greater amount of crops planted unde Bolshevik rule than under the old regime ? Mrs. BRESHKovsiiAYA. Planting is diminishing. The landlords ar not so bold to risk, and the peasants are not so sure the land will b for them, and thei-efore they will not even attempt to cultivate mud land, and without horses they can not, so the planting diminishe and diminishes. "We have not exported any grain for five years. Al was left in Russia. Nevertheless they are quite near starvation What does it mean? It means that for instance in many province the peasants are hiding their grain. They will not sell it into th towns. They are always saying, " Give us goods. Give us machinery wares and goods, sugar and tea, all Y>e need, and we will sell you ou grain. Otherwise, you give us some paper money, and what shall w do with it? Nothing at all." And they think, too, that they must sel at the price fixed by the Bolsheviki where there are Bolsheviki. am this price is not high ; but when they 'want to get anything in town— to buy anything else — thej^ must pay for a pound of sugar 40 rubles Therefore they will not sell their grain to the Bolsheviki, an( brigands are going over Russia and robbing them, so that they ari hiding their grain in the ground — making great holes in the grounc nnd putting the grain in — and much of the grain is x'otting. All ove: Russia it is destroy, and destroy. There is no order, no industry and no work. Senator Steelinc. Do you have any idea, madam, how man; people have been killed by the Bolsheviki? Has there been an}' esti mate made? Mrs. Breshkovskata. It is said that the war against the German took only half of those who are killed now. Twice as much as w( Irad in casualties during the war have been killed by the Bolsheviki It is not imaginable to you. They shoot, for instance, thousands anc thousands of them at once. Ever}' man and every woman who ii against them, as they believe, is shot cr hanged. Senator Over^iax. How many people have fled the territory oi account of this terrorism ? Mrs. Bkeshkovskava. All the provinces are overflowed with refu '"■ees. There are refugees in every town now, and we have committeei for refuo'ees. They come out of the towns quite naiked. They comi in durina"the night, women with children, and old women, and man] 252 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGAI^DA. of tliem come from the towns quite naked. And of sickness, there is ty]^hiis everywhere. Senator Wolcott. Do you know of any agents who are spreading the Bolshevik propaganda in this country? Mrs. Beeshkovskaya. I have lieard of them. I have heard that you have 3.000,000 Eussian Bolshevik refugees. Perhaps it is not quite ^o much. But I am sure that all the Bolsheviki, all these criminals who are making propaganda in Russia, will make the same propaganda everywhere. They will not work, but they always have means to put out this propaganda. Here in America your democ- racy could be so well organized against Bolshevism. I am sure there is liberty of association here, of assembly, of unions, and so we socialists hoped to have such an organization in Eussia during the first three or four months after the revolution; but until now man- kind has many bad instincts, it is true; and when one comes to the poor people and demonstrates his worst side of nature, certainly they will find things pretty bad. And so it was in Russia. But I am glad to say that all the Russian people are not corrupted. Yet it is quite enough to have some 100,000 of such corrupted people, to In-ing misfortune over the whole country. It is quite enough. We have no navy, we have no factories, we have no guns, we have no transporta- tion. All of those which we had the Bolshe-\-iki have sold to the German people. ^A'hen I spent six months in hiding in Moscow, every day there was a train going to Orsba, a town down near Germany. Every day they sent down cars loaded with goods from Moscow to Germany. Every day goods were carried out. So that our national riches, our best art productions, and all of that, has gone to Germanv. All of that they sent to Germany and nothing was left for the people. Ask anybody if the organization of the Bolsheviki is for the welfare of our people, and nobody will answer you that it is. We have no schools, no colleges, no universities. You will read in the papers that everybody is working and learning. But the fact is that there are no factories, no mills, nor anything. TESTIMONY OF ME. ROGEUS SMITH. (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) Maj. Htjmes. Mr. Smith, where do you live? Mr. Smith. Brooklyn, N. Y., at present- Ma]'. Humes. What is your business? What are you connected with ? Mr. Smith. The National City Bank. Maj. Hr^iEs. Were you connected with the National City Bank in Petrograd? Mr. Smith. I was. Maj. Htjmes. When did you leave Petrograd? Mr. Smith. September 2. Senator Wolcott. What A^ear? Mr. Smith. 1918. Maj. Humes. In September, 1918? Mr. Smith. Yes. Senator Ovehmax. Did you come away with this American colony? Mr. Smith. Yes, I came out with Mr. Lee's party. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 253 Senator Ovehjiax. Why did you leave there? Mr. Smith. Why, tlie American consul, Mr. Poole, had received word from the Government to get all the Americans out, and we look the opportunity to get out. Conditions were certainly get- ting worse and there was no good in our remaining. Maj. 'Humes. Mr. Smith, will you just describe in your own way the condition of affairs as you found them in such parts of Eussia as you visited, commencing with the November revolution and the events leading up to that revolution, through to the time you left? Mr. Smith. I came in there in June, 1917, in the early part of June, and was present at the time the Bolsheviki in July first tried to take power and were put down by Kerensky, who brought up forces from the front. I was there during the summer, and at the time when the Bolsheviki wore finally successful, when Kerensky was forced to flee. They had the provisional government in the Winter Palace — that is, the ministers — and the final taking of the Winter Palace took place in the early morning, and the following morning we saw prisoners being led out by these sailors from Kronstaclt, after the Bolsheviki were in full control of the city. Maj. Humes. What were they leading the prisoners out for? Mr. Smith. "\'\1ien they had gathered them in the palace, they brought the ministers over to the fortress of Sts. Peter ancl Paul, The Bolsheviki had really obtained control then. They had this big program — land, peace, and bread for everybody — and they brought over all the troops in Petrograd, the soldiers that were stationed there, to help them. Of course it was really started by the workmen of the factories, and they had managed to convert the soldiers gar- risoned in Petrograd to their ideals, with this platform. Maj. Humes. Now, what was that platform? Mr. SstiTH. Land, peace, and bread. Peace with German}', land for everybody — the peasants — and bread. I do not think that any oi this has really been successful. It is quite evident. Senator Overman. Did they get bread and peace? Mr. Smith. They haven't much bread. They give bread to those that work. Those that were against them they did not permit to have bread. Senator OvEiorAX. Did they divide up the land among the people? Mr. Smith. They did not exactly divide it, or at least there was nc special plan of division. They simply took it. If a man next dooi had any more land than they had, they would simply take it. There was constant strife, as far as I could determine. And as soon as one got a little more land than his neighbors, he was declared to be bour- geois. Senator Wolcott. It went up and down all the time? Mr. Smith. Yes; constantly. Senator Wolcott. If a man got up, the penalty was that he had to go down again? Mr. Smith. Yes. The food conditions were getting terrible in Petrograd. especially in February, 1918. In addition to that, the Germans were within 50 miles of the city. No one could tell whether they could get up there or not. Contradictory reports were printed in the newspapers. 254 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. In fact the Bolsheviki themselves did not know. They were com- ing so near that people were getting out of town. A German commission took real control of the city. The troops, of course, neA'er entered, as is well known. At the time Mr. Treadwell, Mr. Brown, ]\Ir. Stephens, ]Mr. Welsh, and seveial others, the last Ameri- cans in Petrograd, it was said, evacuated on March 19, ]\Ir. Treadwell Went to the bureau where they are supposed to get passports Senator Wolcott. That was when ? Mr. Smith. March 19. 1918. He was unable to make himself understood in English or Eussian. The clerk spoke only German. They got on the train, and in the station the train was held there for some time. The usual thing is for the commissar of railroads to come through and collect the passports. The commissar came through and he looked into the apartment in which these men were, and he said in broken English, " Well, boys, are you going to take a little trip ? " This man was named Shatoff. He was known by ilr. Brown. He was a Jew from the East Side of New York. Senator Nelson. What was his other name ? Mr. Smith. That is the only name I know. Senator Nelson. What was his official position ? Mr. Smith. The commissar of the Nicolai Kailroad — ^the chief commissar. Senator Nelsox. He was a Hebrew from the East Side of New York? Mr. Smith. Yes, sir. Senator Wolcott. As the commissar of that railroad, what were his duties? Was he what we call a superintendent of the railroad? Mr. Smith. No; he was supposedly the Government control officer appointed for the railroad. He had no knowledge of the technique of the railroad, or anything of that sort. It was up to him to con- trol more or less the operation of the railroad. Senator Wolcott. Was it a large railroad system, or just a little short line? Mr. Smith. It is the line between Moscow and Petrograd. Senator Wolcott. A very important line, is it? Mv. Smith. It is the best operated line in the country at this present time. Senator Steelixg. What had this man's business been in New York? Mr. Smith. I do not know what he did. We did not get any per- sonal history from him. Mr. Brown can tell you if you get in touch with him. Senator Nelson. Could he talk English? Mr. Smith. Perfectly. Senator Overman. Continue with what you were about to say when you were interrupted. Mr. Smith. He collected the passports, and went through the train, and later came back and said, " Well, boys, I am afraid you will have to stay in Berlin to-night ; you can not go over to Brooklyn to-night.'' I said, " What is the matter " ? He said, " There are only about five or six passports of the people on the train that are in order." That was his announcement at that time. We were moved partly out in tiie yard, and held up for a long time, but finally tlie train did actually BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 255< go through. That was a little incident that I wanted to bring in. I have noticed several inquiries here before as to whether Jews are in control of the Government, or in the government. That is the only incident I directly know of. Senator Overman. Did you see any other East-side men over there? Mr. Smith. I saw no other men from New York, or from America, myself. I have heard many stories, but I do not remember them. I have heard plenty of stories, and I have seen plenty of Jews in tli£ government. The man that arrested us on December 26, 1917, the man in command of the party, was a red-headed Jew, a Russian Jew. Maj. Humes. You say arrested. Do you mean at the time they undertook to take over, or did take over, the National City Bank ? Mr. Smith. Yes ; when they took over all the banks. Senator Nelson. Did they take over your bank? Mr. Smith. They did not take it over in the way they did the others. On the morning when they were to take over all the banks, they sent a squad of soldiers down, and the chap in command who entered the bank said we were all arrested, that the bank was arrested and belonged to the people. The manager and the assistants con- ducted negotiations witli this man who was sent down there, and got him so confused that he did not know just what his orders were, and we telephoned quite a lot. Finally we succeeded in getting him tO' take the manager and the secretary to the State bank of Russia to see the chief commissar of finances, and the man in charge up there took them under arrest. They went up to the State bank. Senator Oveeman. Did this fellow speak English? Mr. Smith. No : not this one that came in. He was quite Russian.. They went up to the State bank and wished to enter the offices of the chief commissar up there. There was a big line of people waiting,. and they started to go in ahead of the line, and the people all ex- claimed, " No; go down at the end of line." They said, " We are ar- rested." They said, " That does not make anj^ difference ; go down to the end of the line." They finally saw this chief commissar, and after consideiable nego- tiations, we arranged that they should not put a commissar, that is a special commissar, in charge of our bank ; that we would be permitted to go on revising our boeks and getting them in order, and taking care of our clients, under certain provisions. After five days they withdrew the guards. Our only commissar was the chief commissar of the State bank at Petrograd. Of course, he was not in the bank, nor did he directly control us. We agreed to abide by their decrees, that is, in the matter of paying out certain sums of money. It was not only our own best policy, but it fitted Fery well, under the circumstances, to agree to do that. Senator Overman. How much did they let you pay? Mr. Smith. They allowed us to pay 150 rubles a week to Russians and foreigners, with the exception of Americans. Tliere was no special exemption, but we were allowed to pay 500 rubles a day. Senator Overman. How much did they tax you? Mr. Smith. They did not tax us anything. Senator Steeling. That meant to pay out on deposits ? Mr. Smith. Yes; the depositors could draw that quantity of money each day; and as I said, they withdrew the soldiers, and we were never bothered with them again in the bank. 256 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Sterlixg. AVhat reason was given for restricting the pay- ments out on deposits? Mr. Sjiith. Lack of currency ; and at the same time, they had not settled on the policy as to just what they were going to do. They wanted to see that nobody drew out a large amount of money and used it for counter-revolutionary purposes to hurt the government, which ^^■as a very good reason. The currency stringency had existed for a long time before that. Maj. HuiiES. Did you have any way to pay out money except by currency ? My. Sjiith. We could issue a check on the State Bank, and then it was up to the depositor to receive that check and try to get tlie currency. Maj. Humes. Was there any specie passing current at that time? ]Mr. Smith. Nothing at all. Maj. Humes. Was it ever possible for anybody to get specie instead of paper money? Mr. S:mith. The current rate, when I first came to Russia, was 10 rubles for 1 gold ruble. Of course, there were no gold rubles, but 5 or 10 rubles in gold amounted to 50 or 100 rubles in paper. Senator Sterling. Is that true now ? Mr. Smith. With gold? Senator Sterling. Yes. ]Mr. S^MiTH. Yes, sir. Senator Sterling. There is a very great scarcity ? Mr. SiiiTH. \^erv great : yes, indeed. I did not see any gold in Russia in a great many days. Another vei'v interesting thing was what they called the revision of the safes and safe deposit vaults. The way they acted is rather amusing. The Bolsheviks declared that all the property which was in the vaults of the banks — that is, the safe-deposit vaults — should be confiscated; that is, all the jDroperty, such as gold and silver, and things of value of that sort. Maj. Humes. Securities? Mr. Smith. Securities were exempt. Only gold and silver; and. of course, coins. It was necessary, however, for everybody to ap- pear there, who had a safe, and open it in^heir presence, and they would examine everything in it, and take away what they felt they were going to confiscate, giving a statenient showing that they had taken it, but no promise to pay or return it. It was a rather touching sight. Fortunately we had no gold or anything of value in these safes. We had securities, that was all, and they could not confiscate them. Senator Nelson. Did they levy any tribute in any form on your bank? Mr. Smith. Never. Senator Overman. On the other banks, did they? Mr. Smith. They did not levy any tribute on the other banks. They nationalized them. Senator Nelson. That is, they took possession of them and ran them themselves? Mr. Smith. Yes, they ran them to a certain extent. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 257 Maj. Humes. Did they subsequently take possession of your bank? Mr. Smith. No, they did not take possession of it. They told us to evacuate our bank. We were in Vologda at that time. We were forced to evacuate from Petrograd and go to Vologda. Maj.. Humes. Did you take the bank with you? Mr. Smith. We took the bank to Vologda. Maj. Humes. Was the bank afterwards taken over, too — the Peo- ple's Bank? Mr. Smith. Never. Maj. Humes. What is the state of the bank now? Mr. Smith. It is just closed. Senator Nelson. You took it over to Vologda? Mr. Smith. We moved out to Vologda, because of the food crisis and the imminence of a German invasion. We really never believed the Germans were coming into Petrograd, because we could not see how they would dare do it. Further than that, they did not have the force to run the city; it was too enormous a task, and it would be • no advantage to them to have the city, except for political purposes for their own people, to say that they had captured Petrograd. Maj. Humes. What was the extent of your deposits when you closed the bank, approximately? Mr. Smith. The deposits would amount to, including valuables — you mean securities and so on ? Maj. Humes. Yes. Mr. Smith. About 300,000,000 rubles. Senator Overmax. Was there a reign of terrorism while you were there? Mr. Smith. The onl}^ teiTorism 1 could testify to was the searches. Everybody was in constant fear of search. Maj. Humes. They were in fear of search. Were they actually searched ? Mr. Smith. Yes; plentj' of them. I was awakened one morning about 4 o'clock by a loud pounding on the door, and, of course, the rumor had gone around that they were going to make searches; that was in Vologda in July, 1918. Senator Nelson. After you moved your bank there? Mr. Smith. Yes ; this was where I was living. I heard this pound- ing on the door, and went over to the curtain and looked out to. see what it was, and I saw another Jew with three soldiers — armed sol- diers — pounding on the door of the upper part of the house. There is a stairway leading to the second story, something like a Washing- ton flat. Finally they were admitted, and we heard all kinds of rumblings and poundings upstairs. In the course of an hour or two they went away. The3' had taken aAvay all supplies of provisions. They did not search the lower part of the house. In the lower part lived the president of the local soviet of the Bolsheviki. That was probably the reason. But similar searches went on that night. I know of 20 actual searches. There may have been a great deal more that same night. They went across the street and searched, and took 60,000 rubles away from a man, and all his silverware. Senator Sterling. Were the searches that were made searches for money and valuables? 85723—19 17 258 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. Mr. Sjiith. Principally for food, but they took anything they could find. It was the commission against counter-revolution, specu- lation, sabotage, etcetera, etcetera. Senator Xelson. Did they take possession of buildings? Mr. Smith. Yes : they requisitioned buildings wherever necessary. Senator Xelson. And they requisitioned private houses? Mr. Smith. Yes. Senator Nelson. And turned the people out? Mr. Smith. Yes. Senator Nelson. xVnd put their own people in? Mr. Smith. Yes; that brings out a very interesting fact in rela- tion to the schools in Russia. Of course, it was in the summer time then, and the schools were not running, and there was no real neces- sity for keeping those buildings empty. They turned most of them in Vologda into barracks for the soldiers, and I heard that they had not decided whether they were going to open those schools or not in the fall. We left on the 5th of August, and we do not know what happened later, but everybody seemed to believe that the schools were really at an end. Maj. Humes. You went from Vologda to Moscow? Mr. Sjiitii. From Vologda to Moscow. "We arrived there at mid- night. Vologda was the first city we had been in where there had been seeming peace, where we did not hear constant shooting of machine guns every night. There would be an occasional shot doTvn near the station where a lot of hooligans, as they called them, con- gregated. Senator Nelson. That is on a branch of the Siberian Eailroad, is it not? Mr. Smith. Yes, sir. When we got to Moscow the first exclama- tion we made was, " We are back home again." There was constant shooting of machine guns, and everything. We stayed in the Moscow station for several days. We had heard that the English and French had all been arrested, but the Americans had not been touched ; but it was rumored that they might be, and we felt we would be on the safe side if we did not go into the city, so we arranged to get a cottage about 30 miles outside of Moscow, where all the boys went — the boys on the staff. There were some 20 people in the party at that time, who lived in this empty cottage. We had no beds or furniture of any sort, but slept on the boards. Senator Steeling. Speaking of the schools, if I may call your at- tention to them again, are you acquainted with the conduct of the schools prior to the time they were closed there ? Mr. Smith. Not very familiarly; no. Senator Steeling. What kind of schools were they that were closed, common schools, graded schools, or higher educational schools. Mr. Smith. The schools in Vologda which were occupied by the soldiery were of all sorts. There were children's schools for children of 8, 10, and 12 years of age, and then there were schools for young men and women, more or less equivalent to our high schools. But it is not significant that the schools were closed, because it was in the summer time, in vacation time, and in Vologda the conditions were not as bad as they were in Petrograd or Moscow, by any means- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 259 Many of the old local authorities seemed to be holding high positions there. Senator Nelson. But the significant thing was that tliey were oc- cupied by the soldiers? Mr. Smith. Yes, sir; but that can be very avcU explained by the IlecessitJ^ They had soldiers stationed there, and these buildings were empty, and not being used for many months. What I wish to point out is that it was the general opinion in the city, of the people I talked with, that the schools would not be reopened. The school- teachers who taught in these schools were tryinf>- to &v.A out whr''hor they would be opened, and whether they would bo able to secure their positions back again, and they never met with any actual assurance. Senator Steeling. Wei'e these Russian schools, so far as you know, open to all classes? Mr. Smith. Yes, sir. Senator Sterling. There was no discrimination? Mr. Smith. There was no discrimination after the revolution. Senator Steeling. Do you Iniow as to whether prior to the revolu- tion there was discrimination or not? Mr. Smith. I do not know definitely, but I understand there was discrimination against certain classes. Maj. Humes. What did you find in Moscow with reference to a^iy terrorism or machine-grm firing? Mr. Smith. The machine-gun firing and the rifle shooting that you heard there at that time, in August, 1918, you could not trace to am^ definite contest bet^.veen different parties. It was more or less out- breaks in one quarter or another, private quarrels, the result possibly of forced searches where people resisted. There was no orcler, and no real police which was effective. Thej' had police to a certain extent, thej? had militia, but you could not call it an orderly city such as we have here. That brings up another interesting thing, if you would like to hear about it. A man whom I knew quite well in Petrograd was forced, in order to earn money to get food, to join the Bolshevik searching parties, and in that way he made his living. These parties were promised three-quarters of the sjooils when they would make searches for provisions, valuables, or whatever had been declared matter for confiscation by the government. These parties would re- ceive three quarters of the spoils. The other quarter supposedly went to the city; I do not know Avhere it went. At any rate, this chap was in one of these parties, and was able to make a livelihood, and I guess made some money out of it. When we came back to Petrograd this last time, we inquired for him and found that he had ))ee!i killed. We wanted to know how it happened — why he had been killed. He was out searching one night and they met another searching party in the same house, and they came to blows, and he was killed. Maj. Humes. How much loot does a man have to acquire before he becomes part of the bourgeois ? Mr. Smith. I do not know. The only time that I had special ref- erence to that was in the case of the peasants. We were brought in touch with that when we were in this place outside of Moscow. There was a peasant there who in former days just had his little cottage and a small piece of land, and he had grown rich and sue- 260 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. cessful, and the other peasants were very jealous of him, and thej insisted that he was a bourgeois. That is a Russian expression. Maj. Httjies. You sa.j_ he had become rich. What was he worth? What do you mean by rich, as riches go in Russia at this time ? Mr. Smith. Well, it is very hard to tell. You can not get statistics of any sort in Russia. The man may have had 50,000 rubles right in his baclv yard under the earth ; but he had food, that was the main thing, and he was able to buy shoes and clothing. That indicated to his neighbors that he was wealthy. Maj. HuJiEs. Then a man who had plenty to eat, plenty of food and clothing, was looked upon as wealthy, and he was in the bour- geois class that was to be discriminated against ? Mr. Smith. Yes. Senator Wolcott. The possession of what we call necessaries here was an evidence to them of riches ? ]Mr. S^riTH. Yes. indeed; inasmuch as a pair of shoes cost 400 rubles, or $200 under the old exchange value. Senator Wolcott. Was that price a post-revolutionary price? Mr. Smith. It is the price that was current when I left Russia, 400 rubles in Moscow for a pair of shoes. Senator Wolcott. Was that after there had been a great flood of this printing-press money? Mr. Smith. Yes, sir. It was due to the flood of money, and at the same time it was the constant shortage of shoes. There were no shoes coming in. The people who had a few stocks were selling out at enormous prices ; but they were constantly getting down to the zero IDoint where there is nothing left. I have heard in these questionings before us some question of the crop conditions. I know from talking to peasants and people in Vologda that they did not plan to plant any more in their own acreage than was sufficient for themselves, because they knew it «'(iuld be confiscated. Senator Nelson. Is that a good farming country around Vologda? !Mr. Smith. It is a dairy country — and vegetables. Senator Nelson. Is it a prairie country or timber country? ^Ir. Smith. A timber country. There are a great many places that are quite open and taken care of under cultivation. That Avas especially true in sections where the Bolsheviki were not in complete control. When we went to Moscow, and came again from ^loscow to Petrograd — when we went from Moscow over to Vologda and then back again to Petrograd — I noticed that the lands all along the rail- road were under cultivation, and wheat and rye flourishing, big crops, and I was very much surprised imtil I questioned some Rus- sians about it, and I was told that these were all Bolshevik farms. They were close to the railroad, which, of course, was under the control of the Bolshevik military ofEcers in the different villages along the way. and they saw that the land' was tilled and the crops raised. I suppose there was some understanding with the farmers whereby they would pay for any surplus, or see that they should be properly paid. ]Maj. Humes. They made a point of cultivating the land along the line of the railroad ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 261 Mr. Smith. That is all I could see, of course, and I wondered why- it should be under cultivation, knowing the peasants were disinclined to raise crops. Of course, that is a very high section of the country,, and is not a wheat country, and that does not indicate the conditions in the rest of Russia. Maj. Humes. Have you any idea how much gold and silver and currency was confiscated from the banks or from individuals? Mr. Smith. No figures were published. I can tell you only from rumor. Maj. Humes. Well, in banking circles, among the people that had some idea as to how much money there was — how much currency there was for business — can you give us some estimate of probably how much there was? Mr. Smith. There was a train which took these valuables to the State Bank of Petrograd, that is the head office of the State Bank of all Russia — a train took the valuables, including gold, silver, 'and securities, to Nijni Novgorod — and it was said that this train carried 74,000,000,000 rubles' worth of treasure. A great deal of that, of course, was stocks and bonds, and I can not tell the proportion of gold or silver or valuable coins of any sort in what was on the train, nor can I tell Senator Nelson. Do you know the condition about that time of the Russian State Bank, how much gold reserves it had, and how much paper currency it had outstanding? Mr. Smith. I can not remember. I had the figures in Russia. Senator Nelson. Well, approximately. Mr. Smith. I could not tell you. Senator Nelson. My recollection is that they were supposed to have had the equivalent of $400,000,000 in gold, and I have no idea how much paper currency. But Avhatever they had was taken away to Nijni Novgorod ? Mr. Smith. Yes. That was the time they expected the Germans in Petrograd. Senator Nelson. Do you know what became of it after it got to Nijni Novgorod? Mr. Smith. No, I do not. Senator Nelson. Did they take everything from the bank? Mr. Smith. They did not take everything ; that is, it has not' been proven that they took everything. Senator Nelson. But they took the gold? Mr. Smith. That is what I understand. There may be some left still in the bank. They may not have been able to get everything on the train. Senator Nelson. Were you in the country when the treaty of Brest-Litovsk was entered into? Mr. Smith. Yes. Senator Nelson. Is it not your understanding that the Germans got a good deal of gold at that time? Mr. Smith. It was a part of the treaty that they should receive a certain indemnity. Senator Nelson. Yes; $200,000,000 of gold, it seems to me. Mr. Smith. Something like that. It is my understanding that a great'deal of that was sent over to Germany." 262 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. I remember it because under the terms of the armistice that treaty of Brest-Litovsk was canceled, and they were ordered to return that gold. Do you recall that? Mr. Smith. Yes, that is true. Senator Nelson. Did you ever come across either Lenine or Trotsky or any of their followers? Mr. Smith. Well, I came into frequent contact with their fol- lowers, but I never came in contact with Lenine or Trotsky. Senator Nelson. Did you ever see men there who had been over here in America? jNIr. Smith. That was the only instance, that I have cited. Senator Nelson. Who were connected with their government — government officials? Mr. Smith. You mean American Government officials? Senator Nelson. No, officials of this Bolshevik government? Did you see such men who had been over here ? Mr. Smith. That is the only case that I know of, the one that I mentioned of Mr. Shatoff. Senator Nelson. That railroad commissar? Mr; Smith. I did not see that, but I have it from the testimony of men upon whom I can rely. Senator Nelson. And he was from the East Side of New York? Mr. Smith. Yes. Senator Nelson. You graduate pretty good commissars there, do you not? Mr. Smith. I know that on the day that I went to Russia, in May, there were 300 Russians, some of them going back to their country. Senator Nelson. From this country? Mr. Smith. Yes, sir; some of them Jews, but most of them real Russians. Senator Steeling. That was in May, 1917? Mr. S.^riTH. May. 1917 ; yes, sir. There was a very interesting and nmusir.g incident that took place. One of these fellows was parading up around the first-elass cabins, on the promenade deck, and he wiis politely requested by one of the junior officers to go on his own deck in his own class. He said, "No, 1 am a free man. Russia is free, and I can go anywhere on this ship." Senator Sitieling. Did any of those men going back to Russia in- dicate an intention to take part in a counter-revolution, or a Bolshevik revolution, against the revolution of March, 1917? Jlr. Sjiith. I did not come in contact with any of them. They were in the steerage class, and they were talking mostly in Russian or some foreign language that at that time I did not understand. Senator Nelson. Did you come across Kerensky? Mr. S311TH. I have seen him, but I never talked with him. Senator Nelson. Were you in any other place in Russia other than those places you have mentioned? Mr. Smith. Only three places. Senator Nelson. Petrograd, Vologda, and Moscow? Mr. Smith. Petrograd, Vologda, and Moscow; yes, sir. Senator Nelson. Novgorod? Mr. S:mith. Never. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 263 Senator Sterling. Where were you at the time the Duma was in session, at the time the revolution broke out? Mr. Smith. Petrograd. Senator Sterling. When the Tsar was deposed? Mr. Smith. When the Tsar was deposed ? Senator Steeling. Yes. Mr. Smith. I was m America. Senator Sterling. You were in America then ? Mr. Smith. Yes, sir. I thought you meant the dissolving of the Duma by the Bolsheviki. Senator Steeling. No. Senator Nelson. The Duma was extinguished by the Kerensky Government. Mr. Smith. No. Senator Nelson. Yes, it was frozen out by that government. Mr. Smith. That is news to me. Senator Overman. Were any of the better class of people, the bourgeois, holding any offices? Mr. Smith. I do not know of any in the government proper. I know that a great many of the factory owners and the former direc- tors of the banks were working with the Bolsheviki, but I do not know of any in the government. Senator Overman. Was that for their protection, do you think ? Mr. Smith. For protection, and from a desire to save their own properties ; to do what they could by their presence to guide the oper- ation of the factory, for example, properly. Senator Overman. They pretended sympathy with the Bolshevik movement? Mr. Smith. I do not know how strongly they professed themselves in favor of the Bolsheviki movement. I think it was more or less a compromise on the part of both. The Bolsheviki wanted somebody there who understood the business, and on the man's part, he wanted to look after his interests as well as he could. He could not get out of the countrj^, and his family would starve to death if he refused, so the best thing for him to do was to stay in the concern and operate it. Senator Overman. Did many of them get out? Mr. Smith. A great many of them did. Thirty-six thousand Rus- sians were supposed to be in Sweden. Senator Nelson. When you left, had things gotten settled in Fin- land? Mr. Smith. In Finland everything seemed to be quite orderly. It wa,s a complete contrast to Russia. Senator Nelson. Had the Germans left Finland at that time? Mr. Smith. No, they had not. We saw Germans marching; and in every important station — Viborg, for example — we saw German officers sitting in the waiting rooms. Senator Nelson. Did you have much difficulty getting out of Russia ? Mr. Sbiith. No difficulty. We had difficulty getting across Russia. Senator Nelson. That is what I meant. Mi . Smith. Yes. I did not know what you meant. Senator Nelson. That is, across the border into Finland. 264 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGAXDA. Mr. SiriTH. Yes, sir. Senator Ovehmax. Did }^ou have to bribe the officers to get through? Mr. Smith. We paid them — I do not knoAA- the exact figures. Mr. Huntington, I think, can tell you. We paid the commandant some nionejr to carry the luggage about 100 feet across the border. Dr. Huntington can confirm the exact amoimt. Senator Xelson. Did you have to pay anything for moving the train ? Mr. Smith. Yes ; we had to pay the cost of that. Senator Nelsox. I mean, did they stop at stations and want extra pay from you? Mr. Smith. No; not that I know of. If anything like that was done it was not known generally among the occupants of the train. Senator Steelixg. When you had to pay the cost of the train, that was something beyond the usual fare, was it not? Mr. Smith. I do not know how it worked out, but I do not think we were cheated in any way on that. We got a special train and pretty quick service all the way through. They put a dining car on the train, and were very attentive. This was for the American con- suls, the American colonj' and the Italian mission. Senator Wolcott. Were you acquainted with anyone in Russia who seemed to be very intimate with the Bolsheviki leaders, and who is now in this country again enlightening the people here about Rus- sian conditions? Mr. Smith. Xo; I am not. Senator Nelson. What did you do with the assets of your bank =^n you left? Did you leave them in Russia, or take them along? ivlr. Smith. In Russia. Senator Nelson. You left them there? Mr. Smith. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. -Whom did you leave them in charge of? Mr. Smith. May I decline to answer that question publicly? Senator Nelson. Yes; I have no objection. Senator Oveejiax. Were there many people on the streets during the time you were there, walking up and down the streets? *>r. Smith. In the early days there were. The last time that I was m Petrograd, the streets were quite empty. Senator O^eejniax . Were there any ladies on the streets ? Mr. Smith. Yes. Senator Oveejian. What was the Bolsheviki treatment of the ladies ? Mr. Smith. I have never seen any cases of brutality or persecution, but the conditions were such that many women of the better class were forced to dig potatoes in the field and sell newspapere on the streets, and do really demeaning work for a woman. Senator Oveeman. In order to get something to live on? Mr. Smith. Yes. TESTIMONY OF MR. WILLIAM W. WELSH. (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) Senator Oveeman. Where are you from, Mr. Welsh ? Mr. Welsh. New York City, I should say now. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 265 Senator Overman. How long have you been in this country ? Mr. Welsh. Twenty-seven years. Senator Overman. "When did you leave Eussia? Mr. Welsh. I left Russia at the same time as Mr. Smith, the 1st of September last. Senator Overman. How long were you in Russia ? Mr. Welsh. Just lacking a month of 2 years. Senator Overman. What was your office over there? Mr. Welsh. I was in the National City Bank. Maj. Humes. In what capacity? Mr. Welsh. As a junior officer; subaccountant. Maj. Humes. Mr. Welsh, will you just state in your own way your observation of conditions from the time you reached Russia, during the revolution, and the conditions as they existed in Russia during that time, to the time of your departure? Mr. Welsh. We arrived in Russia in October, 1916, which was several months before the March revolution, the first revolution. After we had been thei-e some time, a month or so, and learned a little Russian, you could hear an undertone of protest against the Czar, and especially against Razputin and the Czarina. The revolu- tion was looked for at the end of the war, when the soldiers returned, but came, though not as a surprise, yet earlier than people had ex- pected. The first days of the Russian revolution were perfectly wonderful. Madame Breshkovskaya yesterday spoke of the wonderful spirit of everyone at that time. I can confirm that ; that the people,' from the aristocracy right straight through to the soldiers on the streets, showed a wonderful feeling of brotherhood which, of course, was expected to be capitalized for the welfare of Russia, but which seems to have been perverted by the Bolsheviks. Senator Nelson., Were you there when Razputin was killed? Mr. Welsh. Yes. One question that has been asked and wliich I noted was this : What class of people came to Russia from America after the first revolution? I met most of the people that came into the bank, and met a great many of the Russians wlio came from New York to Russia, and in almost every instance they had been in this country from 9 to 10 years, from the time of the first Russian revolu- tion in 1905 until this second revolution. This was not an unusual statement by many of them, and it was given by one in particular. When I asked him why he came back, he said, " Because I have come back to a free country." He asked me, " Do you think America is a free country?" I said, "I know it is." "Well," he said, "do you know you can not say anything you want or do anything there you want to?" I said, " No, not in time of war." (At 4.55 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee adjourned, to meet to- morrow, Saturday, February 15, 1919, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.) BOLSIiE VIK rJiOPA ANDA . SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 15, 1919. United States Senate, SuBCOMSriTTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JuDICIAEY, Washington, D. C. The subcommittee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10.30 o'clock a. m., in room 226, Senate Office Building, Senator Lee S. Overman presiding. Present: Senators Overman (chairman), King, Wolcott, Nelson, and Sterling. Senator Overman. The committee will come to order. TESTIMONY OF MK. WILLIAM W. WELSH— Resumed. Maj. HrMES. Mr. Welsh, -wiil you take up 3'our statement where you left off last night and tell us the concutions as you saw them and found them? Mr. Welsh. I think I was relating about the influx of the Eussians from America just after the revolution, and of the fact that as they came into the bank to bring in their American dollars for exchange, and to make change, it was not unusual at all to have them interro- gate you and &a.y, " What kind of a country do you think you have got over there in America? I suppose you think you have got freedom. Do you suppose that a person can. like they can in Russia, go out and say anything that he wants to with perfect freedom of speech?" I said, "No, the United States is at war, and every loyal American ought to keep his mouth shut." Many showed very strong antagonism to the United States. I made it a point to ask as many as possible how long they had been there. Most of them had come into the United States in 1905 and had remained in the United States fl or 10 years. In almost every case none of them had applied for or taken out any citizenship papers, and they came back there con- demning the United States. Senator Nelson. And they were leaving the United States and coming back to Russia because there was no libertv in the United States ? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Because there was no liberty in the United States. Senator Nelson. They were coming back to Russian freedom? Mr. Welsh. Yes, they were coming back to Russian freedom. Of K'Ourse, Russian freedom to them is freedom, because they are now on top. Many of them are Bolshevik leaders, like Shatoff. who has been .■spoken of. ^ 267 268 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGA]S"DA. Senator Xelson. But freedom to them meant the right to exploit everytliing and everybody else but themselves. Mr. Welsh. Yes, sir. Senator Oveejiax. To take what they wanted, do what they pleased, and shoot down whomsoever they pleased, if necessary. Mr. Welsh. Yes, sir. Senator Nelsok. Were they well supplied with money? Mr. Welsh. No, not necessarily. They were well clothed, as com- pared with the Russians, because a laboring man in this countiy would be a bourgeois in Russia. Senator Wolcott. You say a laboring man in this country would be a bourgeois over there? Mr. Welsh. Yes, according to Russian standards. Senator Wolcott. What makes him a bourgeois? Suppose he is not a house owner, but he does own household property, has got a piano and has a home and comfortable bedding, beds, bureaus and such things — a home nicely furnished — would that constitute him a bourgeois in Russia ? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Wolcott. Even though he does not own his own home I Mr. Welsh. Not only that, but if a man is well dressed and wear> a white collar. Senator Wolcott. He is a bourgeois ? Mr. Welsh. To the average hooligan, as they call the Bolshevik supporters, who are the fough necks there, every man that wears a white collar, or a woman that wears a hat, is a bourgeois. Senator Nelson. The Russian worlanan wears a blouse, does he not? Mr. Welsh. Yes, sir. Senator Nelsox. With a kind of belt around it? Senator Oveemax. A woman who wears a hat is in the bourgeois class ? Mr. Welsh. Yes. It was not uncommon at all to hear conversa- tions in the street cars of the peasant women, or working women, addressing women who had on hats, saying, " You people who wear hats, you think so-and-so," and then going on in a tirade against them ; but the distinction was, " You women who wear hats." Senator Wolcott. What I am trying to get at is this. When Ave speak of the bourgeoisie, many people have the idea that they are the class referred to in this country as the well to do, the people who have laid up some substance, saved a little something, and have got a little, bit invested, but that is not the case, from what you say now. It simply means a person who is enabled to live in comfortable, decent surroundings, without necessarily owning any property other than household goods, comfortable household equipment and so on. Now. that is the bourgeois, is it, that kind of person? Mr. Welsh. Yes, sir. Senator Wolcott. In other words, the typical laboring man would be a bourgeois in Russia ? Mr. Welsh. The laboring man in this country, as he lives, with what he owns and the conditions of his life, that condition of life put into Russia would make him a bourgeois? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 269 'Senator Wolcott. And would mark him as a person to inctir the enmity of this ruling crowd there? Mr. Welsh. Yes, of the Bolsheviks. Senator Wolcott. And they would take away what he had ^ Mr. Welsh. They might take it away. But what surprises me is this. There are a great many supposed Bolsheviks in this country, who, if they were to step on Russian soil, would be immediately taken as bourgeoisie, and before they had been there very long would be considered counter revolutionists? Senator Wolcott. They would soon find themselves in the class marked for starvation? Mr. Welsh. Yes ; they would be in that class. Senator Nelson. Did these Americans that came over to Russia — I mean these East Side fellows that came over, that you have de- scribed — actively enter the ranks of the Bolshevik crowd ? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. And become officials among them? Mr. Welsh. Yes. There were some — not many, but there were some — real Russians ; and what I mean by real Russians is Russian- born, and not Russian Jews. Senator Nelson. You mean Slavs? Mr. Welsh. Yes ; people who had been really political exiles, who came over in the hope, as Madam Breshkovskaya expressed it yester- day, that they now had realized their revolution. Those people are now in Russia, and if they have not starved, they are starving, be- cause they can not work with the Bolsheviks, and with the Bolsheviks there is no compromise ; j^ou are either with them or against them. Senator Nelson. There wei'e a few there that were real Russians, you say. What were the balance? Were they Russian Hebrews? Mr. Welsh. There were many, yes. Senator Nelson. Did the Hebrew element predominate among them? Mr. Welsh. I can not say it predominated, but it was very notice- able. Senator Nelson. They joined the Bolsheviki, did they not? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. They were not like the others that jon have de- scribed, that were disappointed? Mr. Welsh. No. It might be Avell to explain a little the general fact that most of the Bolshevik leaders are Jews, in order to avoid misunderstanding. In Russia it is well known that three-fourths of the Bolshevik leaders are Jewish. This fact does not prove, how- ever, that the Bolsheviks are pro-Jewish or that the Jews are pro- Bolshevik in Russia. In many cases it happens that decidedly the opposite is the case. The Bolsheviks claim to be first and last inter- nationalists and anticapitalistic. I know of several cases in which Avell-to-do Jews have been persecuted in quite the same way as the other Russian bourgeois. A Jewish factor}^ owner, whom I knew very well, was hounded for months by the Bolsheviks and spent most of his time away from his own home in the houses of his friends. He had iinallj' succeeded, however, in buying off the Bolsheviks. He recited to me the instance of a friend of his, a Jew, who was arrested by the Bolsheviks and held for 100,000 rubles. His wife, on the ad- 270 BOLSHKVIK PROPAGANDA. vice of friends, protested that ^he could not pay that much. They told her to get Avhat she could, and she returned with 50,000 rubles. They then said that she had gotten that so easily she could go and get some more. She returned the second time with 10,000 rubles, which she paid over. She was then told if she wanted her husband she could have his body. Bolshevism can not be explained along racial line,-> alone. The Bolsheviks are made up of the very worst elements of many races. It is important, however, that Jews in this country should not favor Bolshevism because of any liberties or privileges .which they may think are being accorded to the Jews in Russia by the Bolsheviks. They should study the facts carefully and not be prejudiced by any racial feeling, or they are sure to bring the odium of Bolshevism unjustly to the door of the Jew. The best Jews in this country would do well to brand the Jewish Bolsheviks in Russia as anti- Jews, which they really are, for they bring nothing but discredit to the Jewish race. Senator Ovterjian. It was testified yesterday that they had search- ing parties that went into people's houses at all times of the day and all times of the night, and took food and everything they found. Were these people that went over from this country who were there, this crowd you described, in the searching parties, in order to maraud, raid, steal, and kill ? Mr. Welsh. No, the searching is done by the soldiers and people lower down. Tlieso people who come over from the United States, being intelligent, educated peojole, became naturally the leaders. As an instance of wlio might make up these searching parties, take this case: The sweetheart of our maid -nas the son of a Bolshevik commissar, though he himself was not a Bolshevik, and we had con- versations many times in our house. He had been working for the Trayolgolnik Rubber Company, there, which was shut down because they expected the Germans to come in. That is the largest rubber company, perhaps, in the world. There was no work. Although his father was a Bolshevik, he was not a Bolshevik, yet he joined in with these searching parties; for, as he said to nic, "If I do not do it, somebody else will, and I have to live." I have with me some coins that he sold to me that were taken in these searches. Some of his y^oung Red Guard friends who used to come to the house and have tea with my^self and the others would say, " Of course, we are working for the Bolsheviks, because we have got to live." But I remember in the month of June last, when every- one was anticipating the overthrow of the Bolsheviks, these same two were saying that the}'', too, expected their overthrow, and I asked, "Then what?" "Then we will have a constitutional government, perhaps the cadets, or social revolutionists, and we will work for them." I spoke on a Tuesday night in ]\Iay vrith this particular young boy, the sweetheart of the maid. On Thursdav morning at 5 o'clock I was awakened by soldiers coming into my bedroom and asking for my passport. They were polite and said. " Do you know Victor Stron- berg? " I said, " Yes." They said, "Who 'is he? " I said, "He is engaged to our maid." They said. " Have you seen him lately? " I said, " I saw him two or three nights ago." " Did you see him last BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 271 night ? " I said, " No." " Did you see him the night before ? " " No." '■ That is all." They went out. I put on a bathrobe and went out into the kitchen, where woldiers were stationed. In the dining room they had my maid and another young Russian who had also been a soldier, but was not a Bolshevik. They were cross-examining them. I asked the Bolshevik commissar what it was all about. He said, " These things we do not talk about in public." They took the maid and the soldier off at 7 o'clock in the morning. They were held under arrest until 7 o'clock at night. They were brought before the commissar and the commissar said to the maid, "Do you know Victor Stronberg? " The maid answered, "Yes; I was engaged to marry him." The commissar said, " I simplj' want to tell you that he was shot last night." There was no reason given, and, as far as I know, even though the father of the boy was a Bol- shevik commissar, they had not been able to ascertain why he was shot. There were conjectures, but they did not give reasons. They did not need to. Senator Steeling. Have you reason to suppose that there were many such executions as that, summary executions without trial or hearing? Mr. Welsh. Yes. I want to put in here one statement. A person that comes out of Eussia and who has been out of Eussia one month is not in a position to state what is the condition in Eussia at the present time. You can tell what the trend of events has been. But for people who have come out of Eussia a year ago to stand wp and talk as authorities on Eussia is ridiculous. People might ask me if I personally knew of British or Americans who were persecuted while I was there. I left on the 1st of Sep- tember. My answer would be, no. The British were not allowed to leave; that is, the young British of military age were not allowed out of Russia. However, a young Englishman who was connected with our bank succeeded in escaping from Eussia one month later. TVe came out the week when the terrorism began, when Lenine was shot at and Uritsky was killed in Petrograd, and the next week came out the statement, " For every Bolshevik, 1,000 bourgeoisie."' Senator Sterling. What did that mean ? Mr. Welsh. That meant that they would stand up against the wall 1,000 bourgeoisie for every Bolshevik that was shot. We, of course — ■ many of us that were leaving there — ^^said, " Why did the\' not get Lenine? We were sorry they missed him." The Englishman who came out a month later said, " I know you said that when yon came out, but we who remained were down on our Imees every night pray- ing God that they would not get him. knowing that if they did, they would go through with their threat and stand us up against the wall ; " and he stated that for 10 nights straight— every night for 10 nights straight — in Moscow they shot 150 boui'geoisie ; arrested them at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning and shot them before daybreak. He was a man that had won the Georgian Cross — the Russian Georgian Cross. Senator Sterling. What is that cross awarded for ? Mr. Welsh. For bravery at the front. He had been Avith one of the correspondents at the Galician front during the great advance and durino- the retreat. He liad been in Russia during all the revolu- 272 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGAIilDA. tions, and, as he told me aftenviirds, "As you know, we got so that we did not mind the promiscuous shooting you heard every night going on, because tliey were holdups, usually, and soldiers shooting guns off in the air, but the thing that tsot on your nerves was this, that in the daytime you would see a group of 30 or 40 well-dressed people surrounded by Keel Guards walking through the streets, and then at 12 or 1 o'clock you heard the shots going " putt, putt, putt," knowing that for each shot some one was being stood up against the wall, without any question." He said that was the thing that un- nerved 3'ou. They not only stood them up against the wall, lint pub- lished their names in the papers: and if such papers could be gotten out of Russia you could get the names of the leading people who were shot. Xot only that, but they published the names of others that they held as hostages, saying these, too, would be shot if any more attempts were made on the lives of Bolshevik commissars. I have gotten away from your question, but I wanted to make the point that I could not say from what I had gone through personally that the Americans or foreigners were persecuted, because the Ameri- cans were fairly well treated: but this Englishman who came out one month later described a condition that was completely changed. He himself for five nights did not sleep in his own house, but had to sleep from place to place. At one time he heard a searching party come into the courtyard demanding to know were there any bourgeoi- sie there. He was on the top floor with a Swedish fi-iend of his, a young journalist and very poor, and the Russian doorkeeper down below said, " Xo, there is only one family of poor foreigners upstairs, who have nothing, so there is no need to look for them." But for five nights he himself did not sleep in his own house. Senator Nelson. Did you notice any activity of the Germans in connection with the Bolshevik forces? Mr. Welsh. As related yesterday, when we came to evacuate from Petrograd and applied for our permits, Consul Treadwell, who had come back to see the last of us Americans out — there were five or six of us, the manager of our bank and his English secretary, the Ameri- can correspondent, Graham Taylor, and myself — Consul Treadwell, who had come back from Vologda on what was then a perilous trip, to get us out, said that when he applied for the permit to get' out of Petrograd, they spoke only Gerjnan at the commission. Senator Xelson. "Were there German officers there — military offi- cers ? Mr. Welsh. There was a German commission from Germany in Petrograd at the time. The German war prisoners were at perfect liberty; and the thing that aroused your enmity was to see them walking about the streets in groups. And not only that, but the Ger- mans had sent in and reclothed them with the parade uniform that had been discarded by the old German army, and they would appear on the streets with 'fine scarlet red coats, with white braid, and blue coats, with yellow braid, parading up and down the streets of Petrograd. Senator Nelson. With the old German military uniform? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. And they were unmolested? BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 273 Mr. Welsh. Unmolested, speaking German on the streets of Petrograd. Senator Nelson. There seemed, then, according to that, to be an affiliation or sympathy between these German soldiers and the Bol- sheviki ? Mr. Welsh. Yes, at that time. As I say, the embassies had evac- uated in February, and our bank and a nvimber of the other in- terests evacuated on the 9th of March, Mr. Treadwell engineering all of this, taking care of all of it ; and then he returned and came back with us, the few that I have spoken of that were left. We were in daily communication as to the progress of the Germans. As you know, they took Riga, and came on and took Eeval, and came on and took Narva, and came on and took Luga, and they were within four hours of Petrograd, and might have walked in at any time. There was no defense whatever. We, of course, were anx- ious to stay to the very last minute, but we did not wish to be caught. We were told by the neutral embassies that if we did not leave on the next day, which was the 20th of March, we would be caught by the Germans, so naturally we went out on the night of the 19th of March. Mr. Smith yesterday recited the incident of our train being stopped after we were three-quarters of an hour out of Petrograd, and Bill Shatoff, the commissar, putting his head through the door, saying, "Well, boys, you are taking a litle trip?" And we answered in American slang, " Yes, Bill, we are going down the line." " Well," he said, " I've got to look you over." So we gave him our passports, and he came back in about half an hour and said, " I am sorry, boys, but you have got to sleep on the Island to-night. You can't get over to Brooklyn; the subway ain't running." We asked, " What is the big idea ? " " Well," he said, " you can't run the Siberian express through to Vladivostok for four or five people, can you? Besides yourselves, there are only five or six people that have got passports to go on." " Well, what's to be done? " He said, " I don't see any- thing to do but to go back to Petrograd." That was most promising for us, just pulling out, and knowing that the German Government was already in Petrograd, and German- speaking people in charge of the department where we got our per- mits to leave Petrograd, to be told that there was nothing to do but to go back again. Brown knew Shatoff because he had seen him and been with him a little there in Petrograd, so he took it upon himself to take Bill Shatoff aside and see what could be done, and he said he would see what he could do. Shatoff came back in half an hour or so, makino- it about an hour that we were held up, and said, " Well, boys, it is all fixed up. You may run along now. Give my regards to Broadway." He was then the head commissar of the Nicolai Kail- road which is the chief railroad between Moscow and Petrograd, and also the Siberian line. Senator Nelson. He wanted to be seen, did he not ? Mr. Welsh. Well, he didn't mind a little side play. I think it can be verified — I do not know for sure, but he is something like the chief of police, or the chief of the military forces in Petrograd at the present time. 85723—19 18 274 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Steeling. Do you Icnow what his business had been before going to Eussia ? Mr. Welsh. I do not, but it could be verified easily enough. Senator Nelson. Did he live in America '? Mr. Welsh. Yes; otherwise he would not have known Brooklvn and the island so Avell. Senator Nelson. He had graduated on the East Side ? Mr. Welsh. Perhaps you might put it that way. Senator Nelson. You have a Bolshevik school there, have ym not? Mr. Welsh. Well, I have been in Eussia for two years, and I cuii hardly speak for what is happening here now. There is one point I would like to make, too, that a great many real Eussians came back at the time of the revolution. A train was sent out specially to release Babushka and bring her to Petrograd, and it was a wonderful feeling that all the Eussians showed. I have a friend — a friend because she came to work in our bank — the wife of a Eussian secretary to a neutral country, who returned after the revolution. She had been always a revolutionist. Her father had been worth millions at one time. She had been worth several millions in her own name. Maj. Humes. You are speaking of rubles, now? Mr. Welsh. Y^es, rubles; which before the war were worth .50 cents to our dollar here. Her father during the war lost his money. She lost hers trying to help him. She came back, and there being no livelihood, the Bolsheviks having confiscated all the sernuitii't and tied up all the deposits in the banks, she went to work in one of the banks. I got to know her very well, a very refined woman, from a family that has been 300 years in the imperial court. She had been in the Eussian court since her debut ; had been in the neutral court. She was a very refined woman. Some of us went back and forth from Petrograd to Vologda try- ing to attend to our interests. There were only just a few of us Americans who did that, and going back and forth we used to bring food. She wrote me in Vologda that she had gone to the doctor, who had ordered her to have an operation for appendicitis, but, going home, she had found her maid sick with influenza. She said, "I am nursing her night and day." I returned on the seventh day of the maid's illness to Petrograd. This woman, who had been ordered by the doctors to have an operation for appendicitis, was waiting on her maid night and day, attending to her. It only goes to show the fine feeling that is shown by many of the aristocracy and well to do and educated people for their servants. The maid died after 12 daj^s, and the woman was practically a wreck. She had not been able to have her operation, and her condi- tion was such that she could not have stood one. We had been able to bring some food from Vologda, and she used to laugh and say, " The doctor has told me that I should have white bread, that I should have butter, that I should have chicken broth." She said, " Just imagine it ! " There was absolutely nothing of that kind in Petrograd. We brought in some white flour and we brought in some fresh eggs, and we brought in some butter. I succeeded in getting a little from the American Eed Cross for her. The Bed BOLSI-IEVIK PROPAGANDA. 275 Cross supplies were jnst then running out. She regained, not her health, but some strength, and was able to get up and go around, [(nd she went back to the bank, working. When we came out on the special train from Moscow on the 26th of August to Petrograd, we were in Petrograd five days, held up by the Bolsheviks ; but on the 1st of September we left. ' Senator Sterling. The first of this last September? Mr. Welsh. Yes. I got to see this woman again, and to ask her what she was doing. The Bolsheviks were giving people in the fourth class nothing to eat at all. Further than that, they had insti- tuted a house-to-house inspection where they reported if people were caught buying outside the regular system of cards. If they did that they were reported as engaged in speculation ; and people buying even at exorbitant prices were subject to charges of speculation for buying food, if on the card system they were not entitled to it, the Bolshe- vik's theory being, " Let them get out and work." This woman, who, as I say, was highly refined, had been in the imperial court for years, in answer to my question as to what she was doing, said, " For the past week I have been digging potatoes, up to my knees in mud, for a pound of bread and 8 rubles a day." You can know what 8 rubles means when I tell you that butter was 30 rubles a pound, sugar was 30 rubles a pound and bread was 1'2 rubles a pound; and yet this woman was digging potatoes for a pound of bread and 8 rubles a day. Senator Steeling. What kind of bread was it? Mr. Welsh. It was a black bread, which at one time almost ruined our stomachs, but it was the only thing you could get. If you can imagine a bread made out of the scrapings of the bottom of a bran bin, you have a description of the bread. This woman told me she had contemplated committing suicide, and would have done so except for her son; and while she was nursing her maid she had said, " Out of my personal acquaintances in the court, 23 women have committed suicide since the revolution because of the conditions." She added, " Now, imagine what that would mean to you if you could pick out 23 women acquaintances that you knew of that had committed suicide." Maj. Htjmes. This compensation of 8 rubles a daj' and a pound of bread, that was paid by the Bolshevik government, was it not? 'Mr. Welsh. Yes. Maj. Humes. They were paying that? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Maj. Humes. That was their wage scale ? Mr. Welsh. That was their means of getting the bourgeoisie into the working classes. Maj. Humes. Yes. Mr. Welsh. It is all very well for a Russian peasant woman, who is as strong as a man, and mucli stronger than the average American, I dare say. She can go out and dig potatoes and eat black bread, and things of that kind. But for a highly cultured woman of that class of people, to demand that she and that class of people go out and do the same thing is brutal. Senator Wolcott. You used the expression awhile ago that they had to get out and work. I want to Icnow what that expression means when it is used by a typical Bolshevik. 276 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. Mr. Welsh. Digging potatoes. First or second class work. That is,»manual labor. You can get the most on your bread card for that kind of labor. Senator Wolcott. Do they consider, for instance, clerical work as working? Mr. Welsh. Yes. that is second class. Senator Wolcott. That is not favored, then? Mr. Welsh. It is favored, but a person who does that does not need as much sustenance as the laboring man. Senator Wolcott. How do they regard practicing medicine? Is that regarded as work? Mr. Welsh. That is in the third class, as far as I remember ; and the lawyers are also in the third class, or in the fourth class. Senator Wolcott. What is a school-teacher ; we will say, a college professor? Mr. Welsh. I think Madam Breshkovskaya made the point yes- terday that there are not any universities or schools going except those run by the Bolsheviks, and that means this, that in all the universities and all the schools that were going, the Bolsheviks turned out the teachers, or they were stopped because of the influenza, or be- cause of lack of funds and things of that kind. Then the Bolsheviki tried to reorganize these with their teachers, but a great many- teachers throughout Eussia are not in a position to teach. Senator Wolcott. Well, do you know how the Bolsheviks regard the profession of teaching? Mr. Welsh. Those who are teaching for them as Bolsheviks, of course, receive their bread allowance, and so forth. Senator Wolcott. No, but I mean the people who teach the young; not those who teach them to read and write, but those who go into the little branches of education a little bit higher — mathematics? Mr. Welsh. The people who have been teaching the young and doing that, who could not find it compatible to become Bolshevik, of course they have, no occupation, and enter into the class — well, it is open to them to fall into either of the other two classes. They can go out and work by the day, and many of them do. I know per- sonally of some who have taken up shoemaking, the sewing of shoes, the making of shoes by hand — anything to earn a living. But their old teaching professions, from the old schools, have been done away with. My Russian teacher, who had taught in one of the universi- ties — girls' universities — and two or three other places, was turned out in every case. She had always been a social revolutionist. The last I heard of her, her brother had come in to visit from Viborg. She had met him, but his passport had to be turned in when coming into Petrograd. They were plarming to go to their family in Kiev. The brother went, a week later, to get his passport, and he never I'e- turned. She spent a week or ten days going through all the prisons in Petrograd, and finally located him. She went to Uritsky, the chief commissar, to find out why he was arrested, and what prospect there was of his being released. He said, " Your brother was in Finland with the White Guard, and is a White Guard." She said, " You have .no proof of it." "Well, he is an officer, and he was there, and," he added, "if we did to him like the White Guard did to the Red Guard, you could have his body by now, and I do not see any reason why we f-hould not do it vet." BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 277 We had brought some flour from Vologda for her, and as urgent as the need of flour was, she never came for a week to get it, because of her efforts in trying to get some relief to her brother, and she told me they had to resort to all the old methods that you may have heard of, of the Russian exile, baking a loaf of bread and putting into the middle of it a note, and all such subterfuges, to get com- munication with her brother. That is one case that I know of. Senator Wolcott. Do you know whether her brother was shot or not? _ Mr. Welsh. I never got to see the teacher again, but the possibili- ties are that he was, because they were shooting prisoners because they could not feed them. One month later, after we came out, one of the employees of our bank, who was a Serb, who came out later because he could not come out with us, told me that his landlord was arrested. That was at night, because they always come in the early morning and the night. The landlady went to the Bolsheviks the next morning to see if she could do anything for her husband, bring him some food, or any- thing, and they said, " What do you think we are running, a hotel ? If you want his body, you may have it." Senator Nelson. Did you see any looting or taking possession of houses and buildings? Mr. Welsh. I heard of any amount of it. Senator Nelson. Can you describe some of it? Mr. Welsh. I did not see it personally, although this happened to be one of the members of the British Embassy. He was going through what they call Narodny Dom Park — that is, the People's House Park — with another friend. He was held up. It was in the late afternoon. His fur coat and valuables were taken away, and while he stood there, people passing by within 20 feet did not dare to give any assistance. They hurried along so that they would not be stopped. If this is the time, I would like to give a description of what hap- pened to the Eussian banks ; but in answer to this other question, let me say this: Almost all banking in Eussia is done in cash. If it was a large sum, if the people had the necessary permit for you to give them a large sum of money, which took three or four days to get, you would give them a check on the State Bank, and they would go to the State Bank, and after getting a permit to stand in line they would go the next day and stand in line, and if successful would get their cash the next day. The operation would take about four days. Inside of the State Bank there were spotters. Senator Nelson. Spotters? Mr. Welsh. Yes, spotters for hooligans or highwaymen outside, who would pass the word along, saying, " Such and such people are coming out with 100,000 or 200,000 rubles in cash." Then as they would go along the street with the cash, an automobile would drive up to the curb, men would jump out and hold them up, take the cash, and drive off with it. It was a constant danger in sending out bank messengers and if a man stayed out over two or three hours, it was the thought that possibly he was held up. In May there were two instances where bank messengers, or fac- tory messengers, I forget which, that is messengers sent out by large 278 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. factories to get cash to pay the workmen, were held up, or rather, shot. The automobile drove up to the curb and the men jumped out and shot the bank messenger and then took the money off the body, in broad daylight. Senator Overman. How did they treat the women? Wliat were their morals? Mr. Welsh. AVell, I can not say personally, because I do not know. I should think that Dr. Simons, or somebody who was more or less interested in the social conditions,' in that way, would be a better authority. I was interested more in what happened to the banks. Maj. Humes. Tell about the Russian banks. Senator Nelson. Eussia has only one central bank, has it not? Mr. Welsh. When, now or Senator Nelson. No, they did have? Mr. Welsh. No, Russia had as many as 35 banks. They have but one, now. Senator Nelson. They had 35 banks in Russia? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. Government banks? Mr. Welsh. No. Senator Nelson. That is what I mean; how many government banks did they have ? Mr. Welsh. They had one State bank. Senator Nelson. That is what I mean; one government bank. Mr. Welsh. Yes; but besides that, they had 30 or 35 very large banks. Senator Nelson. But they were private banks? Mr. Welsh. They were private banks. Senator Nelson. They were not state banks? Mr. Welsh. Not state banks. Senator Nelson. The government had only one, the Imperial Bank there at Petrograd ? Mr. Welsh. Yes, sir. Some of these banks were larger than any we have in the United States. Senator Nelson. The gold reserve was kept in this state bank, as you call it ? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. For the whole country? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. Do you remember what that was before the revo- lution ? Mr. Welsh. I am not sure. It could be verified. There are statis- tics in this country on that. I think it was 1,000,000,000 rubles gold. Senator Nelson. Yes; about $500,000,000 in our money? Mr. Welsh. Yes ; $500,000,000. Senator Nelson. What was their paper circulation at that time— I mean, before the revolution? Mr. Welsh. Before the revolution ? It is better to go to the actual statistics on that, which may be had in this country. Senator Overman. I would like to know the amount of paper issued now. Mr. Welsh. Well, it is reported that the budget for the Bolsheviks for the year was something like 70,000,000,000 rubles, which must be printed. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 279 Senator NELso^f. What became of that gold reserve in the State Bank? Mr. Welsh. You may have read in the papers that as a part of the Brest-Litovsk treaty a payment in gold was made to Germany. Senator Nelson. About $200,000,000? Mr. Welsh. $200,000,000? Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Welsh. And the actual gold v^as transferred to Berlin. Senator Nelson. And what became of the balance? Did the Bolsheviki take it ? Mr. Welsh. Well, you say the Bolsheviki. The Bolsheviki have taken over the State Bank and all the private banks. Senator Nelson. Yes; so that they took it over — the whole thing? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nei^on. Are they running the State Bank now ? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. Through their officials ? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. Have they taken it out of the hands of the old officials ? Mr. Welsh. Oh, yes, sir; the Bolsheviks came into power on the 7th of November, our style — ^the 25th of October, Russian style. Senator Wolcott. Do you know who the head man is, on top, of all these banks, the way they are now ? Mr. Welsh. He chan'ges. I do not know who he is now. Senator Wolcott. Have you known any of them? Mr. Welsh. Not personally. Senator Wolcott. But do you know about him? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Wolcott. Was he a banking man? Mr. Welsh. No ; I think he was a lawyer. Senator Wolcott. A lawyer? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Wolcott. He became the head of all these banks? Mr. Welsh. Yes; I think it would make it clearer just to sketch what happened to the Eussian banks, and then you can question me. Senator Nelson. Yes ; that is what I would like to know. Mr. Welsh. When the Bolsheviki came into power they siezed the State Bank on the 25th of October, Russian style (the 7th of Novem- ber) . The other banks went on a strike, so to speak, and would not have anything to do with the State Bank. They were at a disadvan- tage, however, because their cash reserves were in the State Bank, and under the uncertainty people would not deposit money — cash. Therefore the banks soon ran out of actual cash. They were forced, from circumstances, to come to some kind of an understanding with the Bolsheviks, which they tried to do. It was unsatisfactory, both to the bank people and to the Bolsheviks, and the Bolsheviks cut the Gordian knot by seizing all of the banks on the 14th of December, Russian style, the 27th of November, our style. On that morning a group of soldiers entered each one of the banks and seized it in the name of the People's Bank. They seized the books. All the Russian clerks went on a strike. Those clerks remained on a strike for six months. 280 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. In those banks? Mr. Welsh. In those banks. Now, if you will kindly keep these facts in mind, you can get a picture of the chaos and try to apply it to the United States. You can see what happened. These clerks re- mained on strike for six months. The Bolsheviks, wholly un- daunted, put in their own men to run the banks. The banks re- mained closed three or four weeks, and after that the Bolsheviks announced that they would open four branches of the People's Bank, Into those four branches they threw Senator Nelson. Where were those places? Mr. Welsh. They picked out four of the largest old banks, and called them the domiciles of the first, second, third, and fourth branches of the People's Bank. Senator Nelson. At what points were those located ? Mr. Welsh. I am speaking only of Petrograd. Senator Nelson. Oh, yes. Mr. Welsh. This was only in Petrograd, because the head offices were in Petrograd. Senator Wolcott. Just a moment. The 35 banks j'ou spoke of a moment ago were all in Petrograd ? Mr. Welsh. Yes; the bank system of Russia is these 35 banks, having offices, branches, all through Russia. Their head offices are in Petrograd, and it is not like it is here, where we have thousands of State and national banks. There were 35, very large banks, with branches all through Russia, so that the seizure of those banks meant the seizure of the banking system of Russia. Into each of those four or five former banks were put branches of the People's Bank. Now, you can get the picture by imagining that if the Guarantee Trust Co. was picked as one of the branches, the books from the First National Bank and the National City Bank, and, perhaps, from the Chatham Bank and three or four others would be taken to those premises and put into that bank. Everyone had to go to the one bank for money. Senator Nelson. That is, the 35 banks were consolidated into four? Mr. Welsh. Into four. Many of the books were lost. Many of them were retained by the old employees, hidden by them. The Bolsheviks could not get them. Many of them were lost in trans- porting them, because the soldiers knew absolutely nothing of the value of those books. In fact, in the former Siberian Bank they were unable to find one of the current account books for six months. Senator Nelson. In the Siberian Bank? Mr. Welsh. Yes. It was literal chaos. You could not get any- thing done, and every bank transaction that was done, in order to get it through you had to send some one personally . I have gone many, many times to the Russian banks to see a transaction put through, and it would take perhaps three weeks, following it up continuously, to get a transaction effected which in this country is done through the clearing house within one or two hours on the same day. Senator Nelson. How did the public get along under those condi- tions? How did they manage to get money out of the banks? Mr. Welsh. They did not get it out of the banks. They made a ruling that the workingman being unable to live on 600 rubles a month, no one was allowed to draw more than 600 rubles a month BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 281 from their current account. That meant that people ran out of cash. They had to sell their valuables and what they could, or go out and dig potatoes, as I have said, in order to gain a livelihood. In Petro- grad when we left, all over on the central streets there were, by tens and twenties, commission shops where you could buy some of the finest old antiques, gold and silver and everything you could think of, at ridiculous prices, sold by bourgeois who were selling them for money in order to get food. Senator Nelson. There was a perfect chaos then prevailing in the bank business ? Mr. Welsh. Perfect chaos ; and the same thing took place in the factories, in industry. Senator Nelson. Did these leaders abstract any of the funds of the bank ? Did they help themselves to the funds of the bank ? Mr. Welsh. I can not answer that authoritatively, but I can cite one or two cases which may throw light on it.. No one was allowed to withdraw money, as I said, over the amount of 600 rubles a month, except factories for the purpose of buying materials or paying the workmen, and then only when the committee of the workmen in charge of the factory gave their O. K. These committees in the beginning oftentimes would come to the employer and say, " Our salaries are such and such, and we need so much;" and there was sev- eral hundred per cent increase in salaries. They would say, " You draw a check on your account for it and we will get the money." A manufacturer might protest and say, " We have no funds in the bank." " That does not make any difference. You draw a check and we will get the money." Many, many accounts have been debited with checks, in which there were not sufficient funds to pay, up, I should say, into the millions. How the bank officials, the Bol- shevik bank officials, are ever to make the adjustment, a banker can not imagine. Senator Nelson. And you can not tell, with regard to these men who profess to draw money out for manufacturing purposes, whether they apply it to that or not ? Mr. Welsh. No. The situation became such that if a manufac- turer protested they simply came in to him with guns and said, " Either you do as we say, or get out." Senator Nei^on. Did the workmen take possession of the fac- tories ? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. And they appointed committees to run them? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. Did they succeed in operating them ? Mr. Welsh. They succeeded for perhaps a month or two, until materials ran out and until funds ran out, and they could not realize on anything. Senator Nelson. What did they do then ? Mr. Welsh. Then they quit. Senator Nelson. And what became of the workmen ? Mr. Welsh. They went back to the villages. Senator Nelson. Oh; in the country? Mr. Welsh. Yes. In Petrograd at the time of the revolution there were upward of 3,000,000 people. In Petrograd at the present time, 282 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. or, when we came outj it was stated that there were not over 500,000 or 600,000. The workmen have gone back into the country. Senator Nelson. Among the peasants? Mr. Welsh. Yes. The bourgeoisie have tried to find refuge where they could, and what few people there are left now are starving to death. There can be no doubt about it. Senator Nelson. Do you not think those workmen, after they get back among the peasants, after they have failed in their efforts to run the factories, will see a new light? Mr. "Welsh. I think most of them have. Senator Nelson. And they will be cured? Mr. Welsh. Most of them are cured. As Babushka pointed out yesterday, there is very little Bolshevism in the country among the peasants. There is Bolshevism, if you want to call it such, in so far as the Bolsheviks promised the land to the peasants ; but that was a promise which all friends of Russia made to the peasants. When the peasants, then, were allowed to take the land, they had no further interest in Bolshevism, and they are anti-Bolshevik. Senator Nelson. Are you familiar with the land system of Russia? Mr. Welsh. Well, somewhat ; but I am not Senator Nelson. As I understand it, and I want to see if I am cor- rect, after the serfs were emancipated, the lands were assigned to the village communities — what they call mirs over there — and were not in absolute, individual ownership, but were assigned to the com- munities, and then these village communities, through their authority, allocated lands to the peasants, either from year to year or for a period; is that correct? Mr. Welsh. That is correct; yes. Senator Nelson. Then there grew up a number of peasants who would buy out their land allotments ? Mr. Welsh. Buy them out; yes. They now would be landowners and bourgeoisie. Senator Nelson. Yes. They would be capitalists. Mr. Welsh. Yes ; they are capitalists ; and yet born peasants ; per- haps their gi-andf athers were serfs. They themselves peasants, and the backbone of Russia, as our American farmers are the backbone of America. Senator Nelson. This land confiscation^ mainly, whatever there is done so far, is to confiscate the estates of the big land owners ? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. Down in the black belt, in the Ukraine and that country, there are large landed estates in private ownerships, or were before the revolution ; is not that the case ? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. And it is probably those lands they are confiscat- ing and attempting to apportion among the peasants ? Mr. Welsh. Yes ; but there is no system. The peasants living upon a great estate would take it upon themselves to take the estate, and the way they would take it would be that instead of saving the cattle and swine, and things of value, they would come in and bum the houses, and destroy the cattle, chickens, etc., because they have no conception of preservation. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 283 Senator Nelson. The peasant farmers over there do not, like our farmers, live each on his own individual piece of land, but they live in villages, do they not? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. And then they go out from these villages each day and cultivate their patches of land ? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. And they for many years under the Czar's gov- ernment have had a sort of local government in those villages, and have elected their oAvn communal councils, have they not? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. So that they had a sort of local government, under the old system? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. Now, this new system of the Bolsheviki is to establish what they call Soviets in all these villages, is it not ? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. And also in the cities ; and have these Soviets elect delegates to the general soviet at Petrograd, is not that it? Mr. Welsh. That in theory is it. Senator Nelson. I mean that is their theory. Mr. Welsh. It is not the way it practically works out, because it works out practically that Moscow sends out from Moscow representa- tives who call themselves and make themselves the Soviets in the towns and the villages. Maj. Htjmes. Senator Nelson, I have the land regulations, if you woxild like to have them read at this point. Senator Nelson. You have the present regulations? Maj. Humes. Yes. Senator Nelson. But not the old regulations? Maj. Humes. No, but I have the Lenine order. Senator Nelson. You might put that in the record, if you have it. Maj. Humes. I was going to put it in the record, but I thought perhaps you would like to read it. Senator Nelson. I know something about their present land regu- lations. I was referring to the old system.. Senator 0^'EEMAN. Is there anything else from this witness ? Maj. Humes. Did you know Mr. Treadwell? Mr. Welsh. I got to know him very well and to think very highly of him. Maj. Humes. What position did he occupy? Mr. Welsh. He was the American consul in Petrograd at the time of the evacuation of the allies from Russia. Maj. Humes. Was he arrested by the Bolsheviki? Mr. Welsh. He was not arrested at that time, but under orders from the consul general at Moscow, he was sent into Tashkend, Turke- stan, where he took over not only the American interests but the allied and British interests, and he was arrested there and held by the Bolsheviks. Senator Nelson. That is down below the Caspian Sea ? Mr. Welsh. Yes ; and as far as I know now, he is still held by the Bolsheviks. Senator Overman. You say Treadwell is held by the Bolsheviks? 284 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Welsh. Yes; our American counsel at Petrograd is held in Tashkend by the Bolsheviks. Senator NELSOisr. Did you become acquainted with Albert Rhys Williams over there? Mr. Welsh. No ; personally, I did not. Senator Nelson. Do you know anything of his activities there ? Mr. Welsh. Personally, I do not. In fact, he was a stranger to me until I heard of him over here. Senator Nelson. He did not do any business with your bank? Mr. Welsh. Not that I know of. Senator Nelson. Or with any of these Kussian banks ? Mr. Welsh. He may have with the Russian banks. Senator Overman. Where did the Eed Cross keep their money ( Mr. Welsh. Largely in our bank, I believe. Senator Overman. Who managed the Eed Cross funds over there? Mr. Welsh. Well, while Col. Thompson was there it was handled under him as chairman, and under whoever was the authorized rep- resentative of the Ked Cross. Senator Sterling. Were you there at the breaking out of the revo- lution in March, 1917? Mr. Welsh. Yes, sir; I went to Petrograd four or five months before that, and remained almost two years during this whole period. Senator Overman. Was Col. Thompson over there? Mr. Welsh. Yes ; he was in Russia. Senator Overman. Did he affiliate with the Bolshevik people? Mr. Welsh. Well, it is a question just what you mean by affiliat- ing. Of course, we all had to work with the Bolsheviks because there was no other government. Senator Overman. I got a letter this morning — I do not know whether there is any truth in it or not — stating that he had con- tributed funds to the Bolshevik Government. Do you know any- thing about that? Mr. Welsh. Personally, I do not; but it can be verified from other sources — ^that is, verified whether it is true or not. Senator Overman. I am getting letters from all sorts of people, and I do not know whether they are true or not. Senator Wolcott. It can be verified from M'hat sort of other sources — individuals, or through banking records? Mr. Welsh. Not through bank records, I do not think. Senator Nelson. Was he not carrying on propaganda there to have himself appointed minister from this country to the Bolshevik Government ? Senator Overjman. That is Robins you are thinking of. Mr. Welsh. I do not think Col. Thompson did. I might say here that when the Bolsheviks came in they came in with their prin- ciples and promises which, on the face of them, as Breshkovskaya said, were taken over from the socialists and people who agreed with the latter, and many of us felt a certain sympathy, you might say, with the Bolsheviks and what they were trying to do ; but afterwards, when the best Bolsheviks found that it was incompatible for them to stay in with the other robbers and people who were at the head of it, who had begun to pervert all the principles and things they BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA.. 285 were standing for, everyone was out of sympathy with them, and ■jnany of the Americans, who may have been in Russia at tiie time when Bolshevism was in good favor, may have carried away that impression and still hold it, but it is an erroneous impression which would have been corrected if they had stayed in Russia and seen ho^ the Bolsheviks perverted these same principles down through the months that followed. Senator Steeling. You say you were there at the time of the revo- lution, when the Tsar was deposed ? Mr. Welsh. Yes, sir. Senator Sterling. The Duma was in session then, was it not ? Mr. Welsh. Yes, sir. Senator Sterling. I would like to have your opinion in regard to that. Was there confidence expressed in the Duma and the leaders of the Duma at that time, as to the kind of government they might work out. Mr. Welsh. There was a wonderful confidence. The spirit of the Russian Revolution was perfectly wonderful. It was like a great moment in the life of a nation. And that is the hopeful thing about Russia, because the Russian people showed at that time what was in them. They may have gone back, they may be depressed now, and the people are suffering with melancholia, but that is the great sustain- ing hope that people like Breshkovskaya have; and the hope for Russia is, without question, that Russia is going to right herself. Senator Steeling. Was there faith in such leaders as the president of the Duma, and Miliukov, and others of that class? Mr. Welsh. Yes, at that time; and later with Kerensky and the others. I have heard Breshkovskaya state that they became en- tangled in their legalisms, as to whether or not a thing was legal and they lost sight of the fact that the thing to do was to put things into action. So the people became impatient with them, and when the Bolsheviks said they could do what the Kerensky govern- ment and the others could not do, the Bolsheviks succeeded in getting into power. Senator Steeling. When Kerensky came in power there was gen- eral confidence in him? Mr. Welsh. Yes, there was remarkable confidence. He was the man of the hour at that time. Senator Steeling. What was the reason for his failure? Mr. Welsh. I think Breshkovska^^a stated here that he was lost m the intricacies of his legal mind. He would debate as to whether a thing was legal to be done, when the thing to do was to decide whether it was to be done or not immediately. He hesitated. Senator Oveeman. I was impressed with what you said as to the state of mind there now being one of melancholia. Mr. Welsh. As I said a few minutes ago — going back to that — from the time we evacuated on March 19th, up until June 24th, I made four trips to Petrograd, and then again was in Petrograd during the week from the 26th of August to the 1st of September. Going out from where we werft in Vologda, where there was a little food, a little refreshment, and life seemed a little brighter, to come back into Petroo-rad was terribly depressing. All your friends that were left there "^all the people that you knew, were suffering from melancholia, 286 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. and you just could not help but feel terribly depressed at the hope- lessness of the whole situation ; and then people would turn and ask, '• What is America going to do?" And we, as Americans, would try to encourage them, and would say that America was going to come to their help, and we believed it would. Senator Sterling. In what way did you think that America would come to their help? Mr. Welsh. Every foreigner in Russia at that time looked on the Archangel expedition as a real movement for intervention. We were at Vologda at the time. There were no Bolshevik troops there except 300 Lettish troops, and the commandant of the Lettish troops said himself that they would not fight if the allies came, because they were there for police duty. In fact, a Lett who was not a soldier, but had married and was a very respectable man, told us that he could get these same Letts to take a boat, arm it, and escort us to the allied lines. Senator Oveem.an. What would be the result if intervention took place? Would these peasants that are sad and depressed, together with the bourgeoisie who are starving, appreciate America's com- ing in there, and rally to the cause? Mr. Welsh. Yes, absolutely. They looked forward to it, and we looked forward to it when we were in Vologda. We expected each week that the allies were coming down. They had the whole rail- road, and they might have come on a train right straight down to Vologda, without any interference at all. We expected it. And the Bolsheviki in Moscow expected it, and arrested the British and French embassy officials as hostages. They did not come. Many of the people who were interested in throwing the Bolsheviks out showed this, and became marked by the Bolsheviks, and later had to paj' the penalty with their lives. They expected the allies to come in and give them relief. They tried to do what they could, and when the allied help failed them, thej' were taken by the Bolsheviki and executed. Senator Steeling. How much allied help do you think would have been required for the Czecho-Slovaks and the loyal Russian Army, such as there was of it, to have saved Moscow ? ilr. Welsh. At that time, when the allies took Archangel, 20,000 troops, we all believed — although we were not military authorities- might have taken Moscow and Petrograd and established order out of chaos. Senator Steeling. Did not the Czecho-Slovaks take several towns there. Samara among them, against greatly superior forces of Bol- sheviki ? ]Mr. Welsh. Against tremendously superior forces. They took Samara ; they took Kazan ; they took Perm ; they took most of those places. Senator Sterling. Ufa is one. Mr. Welsh. Yes ; Ufa — without any resistance whatever. In fact, while we were in Moscow, Kazan was taken by the Czecho-Slovaks, and the report of the Bolshevik commandant was, " We have evacu- ated from Kazan without the loss of a single man;" and he was awarded a medal for bravery for having a hole put through his hat. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 287 Senator Nelson. And those forces that you refer to there coming up from Samara, working northward, were expecting to get help from the allies ? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. And because they were disappointed in that, they met with reverses. If we had had a small force then, and met them there at Vologda, and furnished them ammunition, and cooperated, they would have gotten the upper hand then, would they not, as what ihej needed was ammunition and arms? Mr. Welsh. That Avas the belief of those who were there. They were moving on, seeking to take Perm, and they were going on to Viatka, which they could have taken. We looked for them to come in on the Siberian line through Viatka and make a junction with the forces from Archangel and Vologda, thus making a front and clean- ing up the situation. Senator Nelson. There were two forces, one coming in from the Siberian line, and the other coming in from the south. Mr. Welsh. From the north. Senator Nelson. And then our forces from the north? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. And both of those two other forces were expect- ing to get help from our forces coming down from Archangel ? Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. Expecting more ammunition and supplies than anything else, and they did not get it? Mr. Welsh. Not only that, but Senator Nelson. That Archangel move was as fatal a move as the move of the allies at the Dardanelles. If they had had a force of 50,000 men there, or 25,000 men, with ample supplies of ammunition and everything else, the Bolshevik government would have been at an end ? Mr. Welsh. That was our belief. It was our belief that the forces they had there were sufficient if they had moved, if they had come down. As Breshkovskaya pointed out yesterday, a million troops that stand still are no good to Eussia, but 60,000 that will fight and move are a help. Senator Sterling. What would be your opinion as to the effe;:t of a reasonably large allied force in Eussia to-day, as a stabilizing, conserving force that would prevent the disorders and excesses of the Bolsheviki, and enable them to work out a stable government ? Mr. Welsh. I tried to make the point that it is hard for anyone who has come out of Eussia a month previously to speak with author- ity on it. We can speak of conditions when we were there, but you must consider this, that when at that time we felt that that force of 20 000 could have taken it, we knew the sentiment of the Eussian peo- ple. Since then the Eussian people have had to submit to the disap- pointment of their hopes that food would be brought to them and that the allies would come and take the Bolsheviki off their neck. That hope has been deferred, and what it has turned into I can not say. Whether it has turned into distrust sufficient to make allied intervention a failure now I can not say. Senator Overman. Mr. Welsh, the Eussian people in all their wars have been brave fighters and good soldiers. Why, in your opinion. 288 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. does not some leader rise up and organize these soldiers and over- throw these Bolshevild among themselves? Mr. Welsh. I think Breshkovskaya tried to make that plain yes- terday. The people have been systematically starved by the Bol- sheviki for eight months — the leaders and the people. They have searched on the streets and in the houses for arms of every kind for the last six months. There are no arms except in the hands of the BolsheviM ; there is no food except in the hands of the Bolshe- viki. Those leaders whom you might have looked to at that time that I spoke of, when we were expecting the allies to come in, those leaders came forward, but were seized by the Bolsheviki and executed. After such drastic measures when people who had the courage came forward on the strength of the hope of belief in the allies, when that hope was not realized, how can you expect the people to rise up? The other point is that the peasants, who are the great body and mass of the Russian people, are self-sufficient unto themselves. They are back in the villages, where there are no Bolsheviki. If the Bolshe- viki come out they fight them with pitchforks or anything they can get. I, personally, with two other companions, was almost mobbed in a little village 5 miles from Vologda, because they thought we were Bolsheviki. We had come out to see an historic monastery there, and were going through the place. Just before us had been some Russians who may have been Bolsheviki. At any rate they were exceedingly impudent to the monks. They left, but we re- mained in the monastery. Some people came up to us and asked what we were doing. AVe said, " Xothing, just looking around." They said, " 'V^1lo are you? " We said, "Americans; allies." They said, " That is very well. Make yourselves at home." That was a group of 15 people. We went farther on, and later the group grew to 50 people. These were not satisfied, and while some of them were demanding that we should get out, others who had been there earlier spoke to us and tried to apologize, saying, " Some Bolsheviki haA'e been here trj'ing to requisition the food of the mon- astery, and our peasants are afraid that you are Bolsheviks. There- fore it is best that you should leave." " Well," we said, "if that is the case, we will leave," and we started to go ; but by this time there was a very large crowd, of 150 women and men. Luckily for us, there were no large sticks or stones; but we, not being Russian but being Americans, tried to take it humorously and if possible make the best of it, whereas an ordinary Russian might have lost his temper and fought back, and would have been mobbed by them as Bolsheviks. This was 5 miles out of Vologda. That is convincing to me of the peasants' attitude toward the Bolsheviks. Senator Overman. If some leader should rise up and lead these peasants against these Bolsheviki, they would have no munitions, no guns? Mr. Welsh. What would they lead them with? With pitchforks and clubs, with the Red Guards having machine guns and all modern equipment? They have the complete equipment of the Russian Army ; that is, all that was not given to the Germans. Senator Steeling. Would not allied intervention in sufficient force be reassuring to those peasants, and would they not, although at present not armed, give their moral support to such intervention? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 289 Mr. Welsh. I think a Russian can answer that question better, but Breshkovskaya answered that question yesterday by saying yes. For myself, I feel that the great need of Russia at the present time is food. If the allies could go in with food and provisions and with enough armed force to see that that food was not given to the Bolsheviki and did not fall into the hands of the Bolsheviki, but was given to everyone alike, and if they wanted to give to the Bolsheviks, well and good — ^because you can not tell whether a man is a Bolshevik or not by what he says to-day, and I can cite an example of that — but to go on, you can not expect people to make an orderly government when they are starving to death. But give them food, give them clothing, and help them to a self-respecting position, and they will work themselves out. But if this thing is allowed to run on, the intelligent and educated people are going to be systematically starved out and the restoration of Russia is going to take years and years instead of a few years. Senator Overman. There has been a great starvation of those people, has there not? Mr. Welsh. Breshkovskaya stated yesterday, in answer to one of your questions, as to how many the Bolsheviki had killed, and said that the casualties of the war with Germany were only one-half of what the Bolsheviki had killed. The word " killed " in that sense, I believe, should be interpreted to mean not only killed by guns, but by actual starvation. Senator Overman. You think, if this thing goes on, that thousands of people will be starved to death? Mr. Welsh. Thousands have starved to death. There is abso- lutely no question but that in the city of Moscow to-day there is absolute starvation. We had been on what you might call starva- tion rations for eight months, with no sugar, no butter, no white bread. Senator Overman. No meat? Mr. Welsh. Horse meat; and when it is asked if horse meat is appetizing, it is appetizing, but when you go down the street and see three or four horses that have dropped dead yesterday, and come back to-morrow and find one of them half cut away, and go back the next day and find the same horse still lying there, cut still fur- ther away — and I have seen one horse lying for five days, to my actual knowledge, in one place, and being continually cut up — you do not enjoy horse meat under those conditions. Senator Overman. I should think that would produce disease among them. Mr. Welsh. If you ask a person coming out of Russia at the present time, " Have you the flu? " he will say, " Oh, yes." The flu is not anything to them. Over here it is terrible ; but in comparison to what life means in Russia the flu is a minor thing. Senator Overman. What will be the result, then, if this state of affairs goes on for another year? Mr. Welsh. There is positive starvation in Petrograd and Mos- cow and, as Breshkovskaya pointed out yesterday, the north of Russia is not self supporting. It gets additional food from Siberia and the south. What grain they had coming on was reaped in August. We left there in September, one month later, and there 85723—19 19 290 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. was already a shortage. If there was a shortage after one month, how could that crop last through September, October, November, December, January, and right straight through until spring? And it will be spring before they can get any edibles at all — any potatoes, any grain, or anything of that kind. It should be perfectly plain that under such conditions there can be nothing but starvation. In the winter of 1917 the American Eed Cross kept thousands of children from starving to death by the very well-organized and worked-out distribution of milk — condensed milk. Their supplies ran out in May, 1918. Since then there has been absolutely nothing of that kind to be given to the children and babies of Petrograd and Moscow. There is only one answer, and that is starvation. The mother of my assistant in the bank, as far back as March, 1918, was making bread, for which they paid 20 cents a pound, out of meal from which they make linseed oil that is used to feed to cattle. She was malring bread out of that meal to feed the family. That was as far back as jMarch, 1918, almost a year ago. People in this country have absolutely no conception of it. For instance, Breshkovskaya j'esterday was as- tounded at the ignorance of the American people. We always feel, '■ Why ask these questions? Do you not know these things? "" It is terrible that people in this country can not picture or realize what is happening in Eussia at the present time. Senator Nelson. The food-producing and grain-producing por- tions of Eussia are all south and east of these centers of the revolution. Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelsox. That is, around Petrograd and around Moscow and around Vologda, and all those places there in the northern part of Eussia, they do not produce enough for their own support. Mr. Welsh. They do not produce enough for their own support. Senator Nelson. The food must come either from the Ukraine country or from Siberia. Mr. Welsh. Yes. Senator Nelson. But do you not think that if they had transporta- tion facilities and could distribute what there is in Siberia and south Eussia, they could supply themselves? Mr. Welsh. They could ; but the key to the situation is this, that in the sections where there is food the peasants will not sell it for the money they have in Eussia. which deteriorates from month to month. They say, " Give us shoes, give us implements, give us anything, and we will give you our grain." So that no one can go in there and take it. The Bolsheviks can not take it away from them and neither can anyone else. Unless you can send from this country supplies of other kinds to be exchanged for their food, they will not release it. Senator Nelson. The starvation you speak of is not confined to the peasantry in the country? They have enough food to live on? It must be confined to the people in these large cities ? ]Mr. Welsh. It is confined to the people in the large cities ; and yet there is a very stringent shortage among the peasants. We asked our maid in Vologda, atIio was quitting then, in August, to go back to the harvest, how much land they had. She said, " I do not Imow." " Well, how much crops do you raise ?" She said, being exceedingly ignorant. " I do not loiow how many bushels, etc. I know it is not sufficient for our family." That was the way she measured it. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 291 Senator Nelson. Their lack of desire to laise more food is due to their, fear that it will be captured by the Bolshe^iki? Is there not something in that ? Mr. Welsh. There is something- in that; but she stated that for many years past the land they had in their family was not sufficient to support the family. She was working in Vologda and earning money to support herself, and sending money to the family. Senator Steeling. What do you say as to'the condition" involved in Senator Nelson's question, namely, that the peasants are not pro- ducing sufficient grain because of their fear that it will be taken by the Bolsheviki ? Mr. Welsh. I think that is true; and Breshkovskaya yesterday stated it as a fact, and she ought to Ifnow. Maj . Httmes. Mr. Welsh, are you familiar with the method of elect- ing these Soviets and the way they conduct their elections ? Have you any instances that you can relate ? Mr. Welsh. I do not think anj^one can be familiar with that, be- cause there are no elections. Maj. Humes. Give us a sample of one method, if you know of such. Mr. Welsh. Well, in Vologda, where we came in closer contact with it, the soviet authorities there were outsiders, and not Vologda people. They had come from the outside. Vologda had been a very progressive city, and therefore the change through Bolshevism was very slight. That is, they retained the city organization of the dis- tribution of food, etc., and the Bolshevik president of the soviet was a fairly moderate, liberal .man, so they got along very well until in July the Moscow government sent up a commission from Moscow which threw out what had been the bolshevik soviet, and took entire charge of the situation, and organized a committee of five in whom full legislative and military powers over the city of Vologda were placed. Maj. Humes. Were these five people residents of Vologda, or out- siders ? Mr. Welsh. They had come from Moscow. One of them was our friend Eadek, who was with Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg in Berlin. Senator Nelson. Who recently has been arrested in Germany? Mr. Welsh. Yes. He. I believe, is an Austrian. Maj. HtiMES. How did they run the city, and what was the reason they found it necessary to depose the original soviet? Mr. Welsh. All the reasons I do not know, though one reason that was given was the presence of the allied troops in Archangel, and they came under that pretext. Maj. Humes. How did the new soviet conduct the affairs of the city, as compared to the way they were being conducted by the original soviet? Mr. Welsh. They simply issued mandatory decrees. The other soviet which was made up of liberal socialists and liberal Bolsheviks, had tried to conduct a semblance of an elective government, which was true in the beginning of the Bolshevik government throughout Russia but as in Vologda — and Vologda is only illustrative of what has happened all over — the Bolsheviki, to preserve themselves, found it necessary to send in a dictatorship and take over the government. 292 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. And when some people talk about the Bolsheviki, telling us about a constitutional government, what is said may have been true when the Bolsheviki first came in, but what you want to know is the state of conditions at the present time, and in Vologda at the present time the government is in the hands of a commission of five. Senator Nelson. This Vologda commission was sent from Moscow? Mr. Welsh. Yes, with Eadek at the head of them. They issued mandatory decrees of an}' nature that they felt necessary. Then, too, it is a well known fact that the Bolsheviks dispersed the National Constituent Assembly which met shortly after they came into power, for the reason that it did not have a Bolshevik majority. Senator Nelson. And took possession of whatever property they wanted, buildings, houses, furniture, money, and I suppose every- thing. Mr. Welsh. Yes, and at that time they started in and arrested some hundred or so of the leading people of Vologda and held them sev- eral weeks. Twenty of them they took as hostages to Moscow, and I do not doubt at all but that those twenty have been killed. Senator Nelsox. How big a place is Vologda ? Mr. Welsh. It was 40,000 ; but Vologda is characteristic of where the peasants have grown up, and the leading people were only one generation removed from the peasants themselves; and yet those same people fled from this commission when it entered the town, and had to hide themselves wherever they could. Senator Nelson. So that the people of that town, the rank and file and the masses of the people, were not in sympathy with that com- mittee of five that was sent there?- Mr. Welsh. Not only that, but, as I stated, the Lettish troops who were there, supporting them at the time, would not have resisted the allies had they come down. That is the statement of their com- mandant, who had offered, through their friend, to help us get to the allied lines, if necessary. One of the reasons for the strength of the Bolsheviki at the present time — the strengthening of the Bolshekivi at the present time — in my opinion, is this : They were on their last legs when the allies came in, or were coming in. Lenine was for coming to an understanding with the allies. Trotsky said " No, we must arm the German and Austrian prisoners, and institute a period of terrorism and go to the front and beat back the Czecho-Slavs, and win out that way," because in those months it looked as if Germany was winning. So they armed the German prisoners and the Austrian prisoners — ^the Austrians not so much, because they were more in sympathy with the Russian people— and sent them out against the Czecho-Slavs, and that was successful. In the revolt at Yaroslav, that took place, I think it was, in July, the White Guard held it for three weeks against the Eed Guard, without any possibility or outlook of the Red Guard winning out until they took the German officers and German prisoners from around Moscow and sent them up there ; and as we passed through Yaroslav three or four weeks later, the whole north of the town looked like a picture of northern Belgium, completely wiped out, trees standing there without a leaf, and with houses burned and razed to the ground, in the section where the White Guards had been. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 293 Maj. Humes. Do you know anything about financial support for the Bolsheviki coming from any source other than the confiscated funds in Russia ? Mr. Welsh. I do not know of any from the outside, if that is what you mean. Maj. Humes. I tliought possibly you might have some knowledge of that. Mr. Welsh. I do not know of any, but they have done such things as the following: At the time we were leaving Moscow they had requisitioned all the goods, all the clothing in the dry goods stores, and an order was issued that they should requisition all furs — that is, furs in stores and storage. It was contemplated that there would be a requisition of all fur coats and a redistribution from the bourgeoisie to those who needed them, and a week or so later when we came out and were held up in Petrograd, I had an oportunity to talk with the manager of the English magazine there, and he had received his orders that his store had been requisitioned, and an in- ventory taken of his entire stock, and the whole thing was under the control of the Bolsheviki,, to be sold at their price, and he was to get a selling commission. Maj. Humes. He was to get a commission? In other words, re- quisitioning is confiscation. Mr. Welsh. They confiscated goods for which perhaps he would have paid 100 per cent, and sold them and gave him 15 per cent as a commission. TESTIMONY OF ME. KOGEK. E. SIMMONS. (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) Maj. Humes. Where do you reside? Mr. Simmons. Hagerstown, Md. Maj. Humes. You are connected with the Department of Com- merce, are you not? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir; trade commissioner. Maj. Humes. Have you been in Russia during the last few years? Mr. Simmons. Eighteen months. I just returned 10 days ago. Maj. Humes. During what period of time were you in Russia last? Mr. Simmons. From July, 1917, up to November, 1918. I came out in April to Stockholm through Finland to write reports and establish contact by wire with the Department of Commerce in Amer- ica, and then went back to Russia. Maj. Humes. Will you state to the committee in your own way the conditions, as you observed them and found them in Russia during that period of time, with reference to the manner in which the Bolsheviki Government is controlling things, and the actual condi- tions that exist as to their policy in Russia and the economical and manufacturing conditions there? Mr. Simmons. My work, generally, was study of the lumbering industry and the exploitable forests of Russia, in connection with the rebuilding of the devastated portions of Europe. It was quite neces- sary the lumbermen of this country thought, as well as the Depart- ment of Commerce, that we should know where the vast amount of the supplies that would be required for that work was to come from. 294 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGAXDA. If America has to supply all or a great part, it. will draw enomiouslv on our forestal resources. If America only had to contribute a nominal portion of the demand, it was necessary to know how much so that we could make our aiTangements to meet the obligation. For the investigation a commission of four men was appointed. Two went to countries that would consume the lumber in reconstruction, France, Belgium, Italj', and Greece. The other two went to produc- ing centers, one to Scandinavia, Norway and Sweden, and one— myself — to Russia. I entered at AHadivostok on the 1st of July, 1917, and for six or seven months worked through Siberia, touching the important centers of lumber production and investigating areas where there was a pos- sibility of ]Drofitable exploitation of the forests. Senator Xelsox. In that connection, before you proceed further Avill you indicate where in Siberia you found the lumber areas? Mr. Simmons. Where I found the best forests? Senator Xelsox. Yes. Mr. SiMMOXs. The best forests, in terms of merchantable stands, I found in eastern Siberia, the basin of the Amur. This basin, you will recall, also embraces northern Manchuria, vast areas of which also possess excellent and valuable stands. Senator Nelsox. How about on the Usuri? Mr. SiMMoxs. That is a part of the Amur. Here the woodlands are valuable. Senator Xelsox. And along the Sungari Eiver? Mr. SiMMOxs. The Sungari runs through northern Manchuria. As I told you, the forests are very excellent. Senator Xelsox. Is there much timber in the valleys of those streams ? Mr. SiMMoxs. Yes; and very excellent timber in many places; the best that is to be found in the whole of Siberia. The next area going west is southeast of Lake Baikal. Senator Xelsox. The valley of the Shilka River? Mr. Simmons. In the valley of Shilka River the stands are medi- ocre. Here exist, as is characteristic of much of Siberia, vast areas of swamps. Out of these swamps rise ridges, and on these grow ex- cellent timber. Between these ridges the extent of these swamps is so great that generally the valley does not afford excellent opportuni- ties for exploitation. Senator Nelson. Going west, what other points did you strike wliere there is good timber ? Mr. SiMMOxs. Regions of small valleys the rivers of which eitlier have their source or empty into Lake Baikal, especially south and southeast of Lake Baikal. Senator Xelsox. Then farther west ? Mr. SiMMOxs. Farther west, we come next to the valley of the Yenisei, where stand the best and most extensive areas of timber that are to be found in the whole of central Siberia. Senator Xelsox. Is that pine timber? Mr. SiiiMONS. Yes, sir ; first pine ; two kinds of pine ; one we call Pinus sylvatica, or Scots pine, and the other Pinus cembra, or Kehdr pine. The latter is similar to white pine of •ur Lake States — Min- nesota, Michigan, and "Wisconsin. This wood is similar in texture BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 295 and grain to white pine, although slightly darker in color. The spe- cies perhaps the most predominant is spruce, Picea abovata. Larch and fir are other soft woods commonly met with. Birch and alder are the most frequent of the hardwoods; neither met with in stands of value for lumber production. Senator Nelson. Is the spruce the same kind that we have in America ? Mr. Simmons. The Siberian spruces are, comparing the mechanical and physical properties of the woods, not the sam;e species ag grown in this country, not as valuable as the Sitka spruce of Washington or the spruce of the Appalachian Mountains, usually called West Virginia spruce. Senator Nelson. How does it compare with the Scandinavian spruce? Mr. Simmons. The predominent species is the same. Senator Nelson. Where did you next strike the belt of timber? Mr. Simmons. In western Siberia. Here the situation is ex- tremely interesting in that there is an insufficient lumber supply to meet the market demand. The reason is that the rivers gravitate to the Arctic, and the forest stands are north of the populated centers. According to their system of lumbering it is unprofitable to raft timber upstream. The market supply comes from the Altai Moun- tains down the Irtysh River. By the rotation system of cutting timber, conducted according to forestry principles, and therefore much ahead of America, not a large enough supply is available from areas close to transportation to meet the demands of 8,000,000 people. Senator Nelson. Is there not a lot of timber in the valley of the Ob? Mr. Simmons. There is. There is a lot in the valley of the Ob and its chief tributaries. But remember that in this region the land area is exceedingly vast. The timber stand is not merchantable over all of this vast expanse nor over three-fourths of it. The conditions here are similar to those that I have told you exist in the valley of the Shilka, ridges rising out of swamps like islands, distinctly separated, upon which grow stands that are merchantable. Senator Nelson. In going across the Ural Mountains, do you strike any timber there ; for instance, in the valley of the Kama ? Mv. Simmons. Yes ; excellent timber in many localities. Senator Nelson. Is it pine timber? Mr. Simmons. High grade pine, spruce, larch, and birch. Birch, generally, is not merchantable; trees do not grow to proportions large enough for saw logs. Senator Nelson. Did you examine the territory north of the Siberian Eailroad between Perm and Petrograd ? Mr. Simmons. Yes. Senator Nelson. That country bordering on what I call the Arctic region? . » -r. • , Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir. In that section of Russia the country drains to a considerable extent toward the Caspian Sea, this is the upper part of the Volga Basin. The major portion gravitates to- ward the Arctic, comprising the valleys of the North Dvina River, 296 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. the Onega, Mezen, Pochora, and Kola Rivers. The divide is in the southern part of the country you speak of, Senator Nelson. Senator Nelson. Is there not timber around the White Sea, in the Archangel region? Mr. Simmons. Yes, most excellent ; not in close proximity to Arch- angel. Senator Nelson. South of it? Mr. Simmons. South from about two to eight hundred miles is the region where the best merchantable stands abound. Senator Nelson. Is there a large quantity of timber there? Mr. Simmons. The separated areas are often very large. Over 60 per cent of the timber resources of European Russia are in this region. Senator Nelson. That is a region of swamps and timber? Mr. Simmons. That is a region of swamps and timber. Senator Nelson. Not very well settled, is it? Mr. Simmons. Very sparsely. Senator Nelson. Not much of a farming country ? Mr. SiMaioNS. The only farming is for individual family needs. The chief occupation is lumbering. The people live in villages. Senator Nelson. That is north of the Siberian Railroad ? Mr. Simmons. That is north of the Siberian Railroad; in that section you referred to. Senator Nelson. Were you up on that new line that they have built from St. Petersburg north to the Kola Peninsula ? Mr. Simmons. Yes, Senator ; or rather I should say, I was down it. Senator Nelson. Well, down it? Mr. Simmons. I came from Murmansk down, investigating the character of forests and locating, of course, the best timbeiiands available in that region of Russia. Senator Nelson. Is not that good timber? Mr. Simmons. It does not bear comparison to the timberland tributary to Archangel. Senator Nelson. Taking the extent of the country, there are large forests around Lake Onega? Mr. SiMjioNS. There are forests not immediately around, but on rivers and streams directly flowing into the lake. Senator Nelson. And on the other side of Lake Ladoga is the situation, generally, similar? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. I have understood that was a good timber country ? Mr. Simmons. It is. Relatively, however, it does not measure up to regions around Perm and toward Archangel. Senator Nelson. Now, you go on with your story. I was trying to get at the timber. _ Mr. Simmons. You know the geography wonderfully well. Well, as you see, my work in Russia was to investigate lumbering and forests. Naturally, this brought me largely in touch with peasant villages, and into contact often with the laborers and in the woods and at the sawmills. The sawmill industry is the second largest manufacturing industry of Russia. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 297 Senator Nelson. Have they up-to-date sawmills there that com- pare with our up-to-date mills in this country ? Mr. Simmons. The system of manufacturing is entirely different. They use gang frame sawmills. I doubt if you have seen them in this country. By one operation the log is sawed into boards, planks, or timbers. The band saw on the carriage system used in America, taking the log back and forward against the saw, is rarely seen in Eussia. The machinery of some of the Russian sawmills is up-to- date; in others it is quite primitive. In the rural parts I was thrown particularly with peasants and laborers working in the woods. When I came into the large civic cen- ters, seats of governments, of provinces, I was largely connected with officials of the local forestry bureaus, while in big cities and port cities I had contact with the exporters and jobbers of lumber and lumber associations. When I arrived in Siberia the revolution had taken place. Kei'en- sky was then in the saddle. The economic conditions in eastern Si- beria were very good, compared to what I found them in European Russia. Of course, they were not up to normal, because of the world's war. People generally were all longing for peace ; and they were looking forward with great expectation, as soon as the war was over, to the reestablishment of greater economic activity and ex- tension of industry, which they anticipated would be very marked. I met the Bolsheviki in Irkutsk. Senator Nelson. Do you mean by that the Kerensky officials? Mr. Simmons. No ; the Bolsheviki. Senator Nelson. Or the Lenine people ? Mr. Simmons. Yes; the followers of Lenine. Senator Nelson. Of Lenine and Trotzliy? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. That is a good plan. Call one the Kerensky and the other the Bolsheviki. Mr. Simmons. Very well, sir. Senator Nelson. That is a good distinction. Mr. Simmons. When I got there, the Bolshevik revolution had started, and I could see the difference at once. I saw the banks and stores were being closed, lumber mills not running, business gen- erally at a standstill. I then became interested, as I saw the revolution directly affected my investigation. It started the thought, " Is this revolution going to disrupt the lumber industry, and is Russia, the greatest producer of export material in the world, going to step out from furnishing its normal supply ? " I therefore began to regard political movements more closely, i soon learned that the Bolsheviks were striving to establish " au- trocracy of the proletariat," according to Lenine's pet theory. The Russian proletariat represents 95 to 97 per cent of the population, whereas the bourgeoisie classes, containing the royalty, the intel- ligentsia (influential because of high learning) , and the capitalists, rM)resent only from 3 to 5 per cent. You can see that if an au- tocracv of the proletariat could be established it would in a large measure be quite representative of the Russian Nation. But the proletariat is composed of various classes and elements. The peas- 298 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. aiitry is the largest. Jobbers, clerical forces, rank and file of mam- professions — clergy, dentists, etc. — students, small manufacturers, seamen, soldiers, industrial workers, fishermen, trappers, among all of these there Avere demoralized elements. It was these, led by agita- tors, that held the reins of government in Irkutsk. Senator Wolcott. That is, the demoralized element? Mr. SiMJiONS. The demoralized element ; those who heretofore had not been thrifty and saving; largely indigent and careless. Senator Xelsox. Living by their wits? Mr. SiMMOXs. Perhaps so, sir. They did not, in my opinion, repre- sent the substantial laboring forces of Siberia. So I proceeded westward and arrived next at Krasnoiarsk. Here I saw part of a battle between Cossacks and Bolsheviki soldiers. Senator Xelsox. Where is that I Mr. Siji:moxs. Krasnoiarsk. I confirmed my view that the rank- and-file Bolsheviki were the least desirable element as to morality and substantial citizenship. In carrying on my investigation I had to get in touch with the best of these men, those important among employees of the government, who directed and assisted administra- tion of forestry organizations in different governments. In my inter- views it was evident they were not men of sufficient intelligence to qualify for the work in hand, and with little conception of forestry principles. Proceeding westward, I came to the cities of Tomsk and Omsk and Novo Nikolaievsk. Here was observed the same trend toward industrial and economic disintegration as in Irkutsk, which I just described, by the closed shops, factories not operating, general busi- ness stagnation, all resulting in honest toilers being thrown out of employment. I began to speculate that if this state of affairs existed in Siberia, it would also be found in Russia. In Perm, Vologda, and Petrograd the same conditions were evident, but apparently not so well de- veloped. Along the trans-Siberian line, proceeding slowly, I had a chance of reading the literature that the Bolsheviki were distributing in con- nection with their active propaganda ; also the decrets, proclamations, apd the public formal announcements of all kinds of the local and national authorities. Many of these sounded plausible, aimed to be constructive, ostensibly, and in their idealism and promises were golden. I could see how people would be attracted, and for the first 8 to 10 weeks understood their sanguine hopes. But after this time disintegration was rapid and I saw the awful results. The modus operandi was not in line with theories. They talked ideals but did not act ideals. . Practices showed there was decided immorality ; de- cidedly, the game was not being played squarely, the people being deceived by the leaders. I suspected it from the very beginning from what I saw in Siberia. If you will let me, I will read to you a sig- nificant admission in that connection. This statement was written to me, at my request, by an American that it could be given to the American consul general. It reads as follows : '■ Bonch Bruevitch, the executor of the acts of all the people's commissars, not a strong man, but a close friend of Lenine s, who, working in the same office, is able to influence Lenine strongly. A BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 299 power in the government as long as Lenine lives. He states that the Bolsheviki have not worked out a code of morals yet, and until they do, the end justifies the means. Any lies or dictatorial methods are worth using as long as they are in the interests of the working classes. A close friend of his says he has no compunctions, lying whenever there is an advantabe to be gained from it for the Soviets." The movement is immoral, absolutely. When the revolution began, those in power were face to face with three great problems, as I saw it. They were confronted with the question, " What are you going to do with the army and with the war ? " The Eussians were then still in the war. " What kind of government are you going to form ? " " What are you going to do with the land question, and will you stop economic disintegration? " You recall what they did with regard to the war. That disgraceful, humiliating treaty of peace of Brest- Litovsk is the answer. Senator Nelson. They laid down and quit. Mr.' Simmons. They laid down and quit ; but in doing that the Bolsheviki gained the favor of 10,000,000 soldiers, who wanted peace. They wanted' peace because the conditions under which they were fighting were unbearable. What were they going to do in the formation of a government? It was a long debate, face to face with the question, Should they make this a political revolution and establish a government as a political and social basis together, or should it be solely a social revolution, to work out their great aims in life and Lenine's dream, " the dictatorship of the proletariat " ? They decided on the last course, relegating the political revolution to the background. The soviet government, composed solely of Bolsheviks, of a portion only of the " manual proletariat," is a government in name only. Rightly stated, it is a well-organized institution functioning to further the social revolution, the overthrow of all recognized standards of moral- ity and civilization. It is purely a social revolution, absolutely. Everything that you will hear given you in testimony of men who have been in Russia looking on this movement from a disinterested standpoint will sustain this. Let me, please, right here in this con- nection bring in one remark. The American Government never had better officials, more loyal men, more conscientious in work, and thor- oughly honest in every endeavor they made, than the men who represented us in Russia. The laudable work of the ambassador is generally known. I refer particularly to the embassy officers, of the Department of State, our Consular Service to a man, the representa- tives of the Department of Commerce, one of whom you have listened to, and the American military mission. I know them all and have seen them in action under dangerous and trying conditions. Aside from the Government, I wish to mention the personnel of the Y. M. C. A. and part of our Red Cross. All these men, sir, whose Americanism can not be questioned, or their patriotism, did their work conscientiously and efficiently. If they are to appear before you which I trust they will, I can assure you almost all of their resp'ective testimony will generally agree. I have talked to all of the'm. They denounce Bolshevism. Senator Wolcott. Why do you say " part of our Red Cross " ? 300 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Simmons. I only came in contact with a part of the Red Cross. I am only taking those men with whom I came in contact. Being a social revolution, of course the worst parts about it are the results of the awful class hatred the Bolsheviki leaders are incit- ing. They are inciting it in every part of the country by their pub- lications and in all their efficient propaganda. It has not been any more disastrous in any parts of Eussia, I believe, than it has been in many villages among the peasantry. Their policy has as an underlying motive the arousing of class antagonism, the proletariat hating the bourgeoisie. In practice it means that the less fortunate in every industry and institution bear animus against those qualified to hold better positions. This has been indirectly the cause of most of the incidents of terrorism wit- nesses have spoken of, more of which I will tell you about later. When it was seen that the peasantry did not rally to the support of the Bolshevik cause and that they refused to sell grain for rubles without value, the Bolsheviki took the class issue to the villages. Lenine calls this movement awakening class consciousness of the peasantry. He organized for this work " poor committees " as they are called in translation. These committees of soldiers go out to the villages to inflame the dissatisfied elements and to extract by force food from the peasants. You know these villages are organized, having men who work land according to the communal system. Others own small holdings in fee simple, while another class of peasants have no land and work as hired labor. The last-named class I should not think would represent much more than 20 per cent. Those that have land to work are satisfied to some extent. Many need more land, their apportionment being too small ; and besides, the peasantry, of course, want sufficient land given to meet the demands of all. But Lenine sends the poor committees, agitators, to incite peasants who have no land to conspire against those who have, and to take the guns he gives them for fighting, robbing, and plundering neighbors in their own and neighboring villages. Senator Nelson. Who have land ? Mr. SUMMONS. Who have land. When you come later to read, gen- tlemen, the history of the Russian revolution, some of the bloodiest fights, you will find, and woi-st horrors, have occurred in villages. Those simple, peace-loving people have been living among themselves for centuries in more or less harmony under their communistic sys- tem. But all of a sudden Lenine, by his nefarious policies, sets the passions of the demoralized class aflame and turns them against the other two classes. Instead of promoting brotherly love and helping to make the sentiment of the nation one for the good of all, as we are striving to do in America, the Bolsheviki are trying by jealousy and animosity to disintegrate the population of various localities into classes with a view of the honest toiler being overcome and subjected. Now, this is a serious matter. The peasantry represent 85 per cent of the 160,000,000 Russians. In Russia class hatred is seen manifested everywhere. I "will men- tioji one illustration which I saw in Petrograd — the undressing of a woman. I had heard about it before. It was about 6.30. growing dark, as I was walking down Nevsky Prospect on my way home. I heard a yell of distress from a woman up a street running perpen- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 301 dicularly to the Nevsky. There two soldiers were removing the cloak — a very good substantial cloth coat — from a woman. And when protests were made by the standers-by, the answer was, "We have blacked your boots and washed your clothes for many years. Now you bourgeoisie have got to bow to us and wash our clothes and black our boots." Undressing to steal clothes went on to a consider- able extent in Moscow, Petrograd, and Kiev, according to reports. It went as far as taking off besides cloaks the very dresses of women, and where they could handle it, taking also the clothes and overcoats off men. Senator Wolcott. I take it from what you say that this was not an elegantly dressed woman, but just an ordinarily dressed woman. Mr. Simmons. Of course, the elegantly dressed women were simi- larly treated, but they would be careful not to walk on the streets except in daylight. But this particular instance that I wit- nessed was of a woman 30 years old, I should say, who belonged to the middle class. She did not have on a sealskin coat or anything very expensive ; merely a heavy, warm, substantial cloth coat. Now, you can see that all their practices aimed to invite people to do acts of that kind showing intense hatred — I wish I could think of another word, it is more than hatred — detestation — against peo- ple that they thought were a little higher up. Now, remember, as I pointed out in the first place this hatred is against a good many of these people in the cities, and people like the peasants who had land, who belong to the proletariat. But because they did not agree, they call them bourgeoisie. You can see that they are fighting parts of the very class for whom they say they are trying to establish a dicta- torship. They are not trying to put the proletariat in power, but the most demoralized elements of that class, which represents, gentle- men, a very small per cent. Now, this class hatred is a matter we have got to consider, I think, with a great deal of interest and a great deal of seriousness, because it is the basis of their international movement. If you will let me take the time to read to you a statement made by Lenine, I think it will bear out that this is the Bolshevik inter- national aim. This appeared in a newspaper, the Severnaia Com- muna, No. 139. The date is not given, but this number of the paper would be about November 12 last. This translation was made by one of my interpreters. The following remarks were made by Lenine in his speech at a sitting of the central executive committee in Moscow : " "We were," said he among other things, " never so powerful as we are now. On the other hand, we never ran such a danger as now. The west European capitalists, together with the American capital- ists now have grasped that bolshevism is a force not to be neglected and resisted in order to destroy it by common effort." Mr. Lenine puts his hopes as usual in the international revolution of wage earn- ers. He points out to the sympathies of the independent labor party in England, of the socialist party in Scotland, as well as of many trades unions (syndicates) in France. But he is especially opti- mistic with regard to the help which he hopes to get from Germany. " In all countries," said he, " the revolution grows by channels which in different countries differ widely. In some the revolution can come 302 BOLSHEViiV i-KUi-AUAJN DA. one or two years later than in others. All have to pass certain politi- cal developments. But the wage eariiers of the whole of Europe begin to wake up and go forward with gigantic steps. The enemies of bolshevism direct their efforts chiefly against us. We must con- centrate all our attention toward the southern front. There will be decided the fate not only of the Hussian but of the international revolution. We have, however, many chances for victory as people's minds have undergone an evolution. They know now they are de- fending, not the power of imperialists, but their own interests, their own land and freedom, their own factories, their own liberties. " The discipline in the Eed army is growing. We have already organized good officers who passed new schools. Our southern front is the front against the united Anglo-French imperialism. But we are not afraid of that fight. We know that this imperialism will have soon to fight with the inner enemies. The power which crushed the imperialism in Germany will crush also America and England. This force will grow. The more the Anglo-French troops will ad- vance into Russia they will meet increasing danger, and they will help our cause to spread like the Spanish disease." I have several other matters here along the same lines, but I do not believe you want to take the time. Senator Nelson. Hand them to the secretary for the record. Mr. Simmons. Here is a short one. Lenine said at the Moscow congress, according to the Izvestija, No. 223, November last: For all those who took part in the workmen's movement for some time past it is evident that in this year a real dictatorship of the wage-earning classes is going to be established. In the Severnaia Communa, No. 51, one of the commissars in con- cluding recommended various measures. [Reading:] I advocate a propaganda on a large scale among the German prisoners, with which the formation of an international regiment can start. Now, gentlemen, these people have a wonderful propaganda, not only in Russia, but in western Europe and Scandinavia. I am going to show you their policy in their own words. In the same paper, the same number and the same date as the one quoted, it goes on to speak about the organization of the army which this commissar hopes can be made to reach 3,000,000. He says : The most interesting part of the scheme is the organization of the huge propaganda work in the towns and villages as well as in the army itself. "We must mobilize our papers, our journalists, our artists," says Poddosky, "Let every day dozens of trains spread our papers, our proclamations, our posters and our drawings. Let us organize in every village, in every company, groups of readers and lecturers. Let the cinemas spread our ideas. Let the gramophones, which now are to be had in every village, make propaganda for us." In Russia they are carrying that out quite effectively. Senator Nelson. They are carrying it out, too, in this country, are they not? Mr. Simmons. I can not perhaps verify it, gentlemen, but I heard that Americans that I had seen in Petrograd had left Russia to come to America as Bolshevik agents to establish a bureau of intel- ligence or propaganda in line with this policy. Senator Nelson. Americans that were there in Russia ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 303 Mr. Simmons. Yes; and tliey brought with them Eussians, I be- heve. This I do not know positively,, yet I got it from good au- thority. Senator Nelson. They came over here to establish Bolshevik propaganda in this country? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir. Right along that line, I was sent out to make an address before the annual convention held last week of the rotary clubs. ' Senator Nelson. Where? Mr. Simmons. At Grand Eapids, Mich. It was of the clubs of the ninth district. About 800 delegates were present. Michigan is vitally interested in the Russian situation because a large portion of the American troops in Archangel are Michigan troops. I was utterly astounded when I saw the ideas prevailing, in that it seemed to give some justification to the Bolshevik experiment, as they under- stood it, but particularly in that these Americans of marked intel- ligence did not seem to know that the movement was absolutely immoral, anarchistic, and a menace to Europe, America, and the world. Senator Nelson. At what place was that? Mr. Simmons. Grand Rapids, Mich.,; delegates from all over that section. Senator Wolcott. Just a moment. The Rotary Club is an organi- zation made up in the various cities, is it not, of one prominent rep- resentative from each business? Mr. Simmons. Aimed to be the top notch. Senator Wolcott. The class of people you talked to represented the cream of the business world ? Mr. Simmons. Yes, Senator. The best representatives of business interests of those localities from which they came. In meetings they aim to get at the bottom of questions. In fact, it is one of the pur- poses of their organizations, as I see it, to study national, State, and local questions with a view of trying to help to arrive at the most intelligent solutions. I do not know why people of this class have not got right in- formation upon which to base decisive conviction. This is one of the great dangers of wrong propaganda, its insidious effect. Bol- shevism is a greater menace to the world, gentlemen, even than was German militarism, if you will allow me to express an opinion. The false ideas being circulated are not the truth about this Rus- sian Bolsheviki experiment. I spoke in Grand Eapids for over an hour. They were more astounded when they heard the simple tale that I told, merely relating my experiences and observations, than I was to learn their impressions brought out during discussions on the subject of the withdrawal of American troops from Archangel. Senator Wolcott. You were astounded with their apparent sym- pathy with Bolshevism, as they understood it? Mr. Simmons. Not sympathy so much as lack of conception, as they understood it. Senator Wolcott. You discovered, I suppose, that they had an entirely false impression of what you know to be the truth? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir. They discovered it, and stated it in a resolution. 304 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Overman, Had they gottan their idea about the Arch- angel troops from what they had heard from the Congressional Eecord and other places? Mr. Simmons. I have no idea, Senator. I am only telling you the thing as an example; just to couple it up with what I said regarding Bolshevik propaganda. Being absolutely immoral and insidious, it has to be watched and fought. Senator Wolcott. The important thing, it seems to me, connected with that Rotary Club incident is that by some means or other, devious, perhaps false, ideas had been injected into the minds of those very substantial people. Mr. Simmons. It is certain that far from the right ideas have been or are being circulated. Senator Wolcott. And very clever, unseen propaganda had been at work. Mr. Simmons. Absolutely. Senator Overman. Did you ask them how they got such ideas? Mr. Simmons. No. This was in a formal meeting. It did not occur to me to go into details. You seem to be interested along that line. I met another man. He was a major in the Army. I happened to meet him as an old friend at the La Salle Hotel in Chicago. Again I was surprised to see his impressions, which corresponded to what I told you con- cerning the Rotarians — absence of right intelligence on the Russian subject. From lectures, different periodicals, and pamphlets in some way circulated in the Army camps, the impression he felt was not perhaps one of sympathy with, but of toleration for, the Bolshevik experiment. He said, " "Will you not come right with me and make a speech and tell the soldiers and people at my camp what you have told me? " He saw the importance of spreading the truth. And I tell you. Senators, on my way back to Washington, after talking to men on the train and seeing the same thing confirmed, I realize that good Americans are up against a great work. And I think yon— this committee — in starting this investigation are doing the country wonderful service if these hearings bring out the truth, and I think they will. It is a matter, gentlemen, that we have got to look at seriously. Every consideration that made necessary the formation of the league of nations counsels protection of the world's common security against Bolshevism. If you had lived in prisons, as I did, and had had the experiences of us in Russia to the last, and seen the suffering and heard the wails of the people of all classes all over that big country, you would agree with me absolutely. Senator Wolcott. Do I understand the purport of this statement to be that Bolshevism, in its practical operation, is as bad as war, which the league of nations is hoping to obliterate ? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir. I should say that the same considerations that make that institution necessary to prevent war make the world's common fight against this foe, Bolshevism, just as necessary. Senator Wolcott. You have been told, you said, that Americans have come back from Russia for the purpose 6f spreading this Bolshevik propaganda in this country ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 305 Mr. Simmons. I was told that in Petrograd, before the time they left. Senator Wolcott. Do you know any of them ? Mr. Simmons. I have seen them, yes, sir, and I think I have met them. I am not sure. I saw them many times in Petrograd. Senator Wolcott. I suppose you would not want to brand any- body as a Bolshevik unless you knew of your own knowledge what he stood for ; but do you laiow or did you know in Petrograd any Amer- icans who were intimate with the Bolshevik leaders, who are now in this country ? Mr. Simmons. I saw one right here, in the Capitol. Senator Wolcott. Who was he ? Mr. Simmons. Williams; Albert Rhys Williams. Senator Wolcott. Do you know of any others ? Mr. Simmons. I think I do, but I do not feel justified in saying that they were Bolsheviks. But Williams, I heard, had been employed by the Bolshevik government to come here and start a bureau of publicitJ^ Senator Wolcott. You got that information in Russia ? Mr. Simmons. In Russia, in Petrograd. It was told to me, but not by him. Senator Nelson. No; but by reliable people? Mr. Simmons. From a source that I consider to be very trust- worthy. Senator Nelson. And you have no doubt in your mind that it is so? Mr. Simmons. I am quite sure of it, and would offer the name of my informant except that he is in Russia and it might mean his death. Senator Overman. Do you know of any money being sent over here? Mr. Simmons. Only by hearsay. Senator. I do not know of any being sent. I do know of money being sent into Scandinavia, Sweden, and Denmark, from information that I got from diplomatic oiEcials unofficially. But the very fact that men are under the em- ployment of the Bolshevik government in this country indicates that money is over here. They have to be paid. Senator Nelson. Somebody has got to pay them. Mr. Simmons. Yes. Senator Nelson. Well, now, go on and tell us more about the operations of the Bolsheviki over there, what you saw and heard. Mr. Simmons. I have told you about the policy of propaganda and of its immorality. I have also referred to the scheme of the leaders to keep the power, holding it by having cornered almost all the available food supplies and holding all ammunition and all guns in their possession, and everything that the Czar had accumulated for war with Germany. They took these in that moment when they overthrew the Kerensky government. As they said to themselves, as reported at that time, " We do not know what is going to happen six months hence, nor two months hence ; we have all implements of war in our hands and are the only ones who are practiced in their use, so now is the time to take the power for the workmen." The Kerensky government fell, I think, largely from the fact that those three big questions faced them that faced the Bolsheviki : What 306 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. are you going to do with the war? How are you going to stop this economic disintegration? "What kind of government are you going to form? Kerensky left the solution of these to the constituent as- sembly. Unfortunately, in a big country having no organized elec- tion machinery the constituent assembly could not be elected and con- vened in less than from 8 to 10 months. The unrest of the soldiers, sailors, and workmen, with arms and ammunition in their hands- well, the temptation was too great ; thej' would not wait. The peas- ants were willing and wanted to wait for the constituent assembly. The peasants in the form of the local governments of the zemstvos— the royaltj' and the big land holders at the time of Kerensky had been taken out of these bodies — were satisfied. The zemstvos were for the first time representative of the peasant class, as they should have been. Of course, the peasants wanted a land reform, but they wanted a systematically organized reform, not the promulgation of just an arbitrary land seizure such as the Bolsheviki at the beginning declared. The next point I want to make concerns confiscations. A concrete instance was my own experience. After I had left Petrograd, gone to Stockholm and come back, and I returned to my apartment that I had rented for lodging, on that day piled in the hall were all the bric-a-brac, pictures, furniture, rugs, and other appointments that could be moved. This work was in charge of four soldiers. It hap- pened that the little American flag that I had left was still on the front door. I walked in and asked what this meant. They told me that in the name of the people's government they were dispossessing- Col. Poncheledjiff, whose rooms I had rented, of his property. I spoke to them and said, " You can not touch this property. This property belongs to me. Go back and tell your superiors that an American official has paid the rent of these rooms furnished, and then if they want you to move these effects come back and see me again."' They never came back. They went around and plundered houses and apartments in that way. The worst part was that often after they confiscated appoint- ments they made the owners, for instance if they lived in 10 rooms, occupy 3 or 4, and assigned the other rooms to workmen and soldiers, who in temperament and mode of living were incompatible and un- desirable to live with. It made life a perfect hell for the owners because, too, of the class hatred existing. In some cases, gentlemen, they went so far as even to make defenseless women give up their two or three room apartments and get out on the streets without a place to lay their heads. I can not give you a concrete instance of this, but I heard it many, many times from men of the ^Vmerican colony, men that I knew well and could believe, and the very names of the people were often given at the time they told me about it. People would be turned out from homes they owned or rented, with no place to go. You will find to-day that most of the bourgeois that remain in Rus- sia, and also many belonging to the better elements of the proletariat, are living in cellars, in undesirable quarters, and the very best rooms are being occupied by the Senator Nelson. By the rabble? Mr. Simmons. Largely by the rabble and by fanatics and the de- moralized classes. With their power, of course, they took away the BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 307 itles of property. They made the bold declaration, " You do not lave to pay any more rent to your landlord, for your apartment be- ongs to the state." And, of course, no more rents were collected un- Bss they were collected by the .state. All the property owned by irivate ownership was taken away, and owners were compelled to I ay rent. Senator Nelson. And the people were simply tenants? Mr. Simmons. Simply tenants. Senator Nelson. And the state wan a great landlord? Mr. Simmons. And the state was a great landlord. Then they went further. You heard it rehearsed to you yesterday, 'hey started what they called "the search for food." They would ;o into people's homes, and if they had there a little larger supply f flour, sugar, meal, or potatoes than they thought they ought to ave, a few days' supply or more, they would compel them to give up tiis food. Often at the same time they would arrest the occupants. Senator Nelson. Take their food supplies without paying for [lem? Mr. Simmons. Without paying for them, take their food supplies, 'hen, of course, as you know, they took over the big landed estates, n confiscating them people resorted to pillage and arson — wide- pread destruction. They not only confiscated the landed estates — T m coming back to this land question a little later — but they tried to equisition also the land of the peasants. Senator Nelson. In the communes? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir ; and the small 'holdings that the peasants in iter years, under the Czar, were allowed to own in fee simple. When icy came to take over the peasant holdings they found that they had big problem on their hands, because they met with formidable jsistance. All of the practices in connection with the subjects I refer to roused widespread opposition, and the protests became widespread 3 such an extent that the Bolsheviki became alarmed. They said was necessary, then, on account of these protests to start an organi- ition which would handle this counter-revolution, as they called lese protests. You see, the people could not make organized protest scause they did not have arms, ammunition, or food. To make rganized protests you have got to have backing — sources of supplies, hey had nothing of the kind, nor did they have any connection with le outside world from whence they could get assistance. Protests by idividuals and bodies banding themselves together in meetings and jf strikes, and by newspapers, they considered all of this counter- svolution or sabotage, and because it became so universal they eatab- shed a special' council, with autocratic powers, called "the special luncil to combat counter-revolution, sabotage, and speculation." You ive often heard of the secret police of the Czar and the terribly brutal ino-s that they did. This special council is many times worse than :at%ecre.t police organization ever thought about being. They be- in to deal with counter-revolution in a high-handed, tyrannical, and spotic way. Right there, gentlemen, when you hear people say that e formation of the Red Guard army was because of allied inter- ntion put it down as untrue. The beginning of this formation of e Red Guard was for the purpose of putting down these public 308 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. This opposition at home? ill-. SiMMOKs. This opposition at home. In the formation of that Eed Guard they nsed machine guns, and withheld food — did every- thing to drive men, up to the age of 50 or 55, to take up arms. They went over to Courland. to the Letts, and made the young men bi" promises of hirge ])ay and much food, and it was through the Letts— tliey could not get Russians at first — and through the Chinese in Russia and through the German prisoners in Russia, that they formed the nucleus of the Red Army. I was told concerning the German prisoners. I did not see them as privates. Senator Xelson. Did not the Germans cooperate with them? Mr. Simmons. I will come to that later, if you please. Foreign soldiers were the nucleus of the Red Army at a time early in the revo- lution. I want to get the idea into your minds that the intervention of the allies, or the occupation of Archangel or Odessa, wherever they may have made occupation, was not the cause for starting this Red Army. Senator Overman. It is now half past 1, and we will take a recess until 2.30. (Thereupon, at 1.30 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee took a recess until 2.30 o'clock p. m.) AFTER RECESS. (The subcommittee reassembled at 2.30 o'clock p. m., pursuant to the takino- of the recess, and at 2.45 o'clock proceeded with the hear- ing of Mr. Simmons.) TESTIMONY OF MR. ROGER E. SIMMONS— Resumed. Senator Overman. The committee will come to order. Mr. Sim- mons, you may proceed where you left off. Mr. Simmons. I was saying that the formation of the Red Araiy was started due to protests springing up all over Russia, which were termed, by tlie Bolsheviki, counter-revolution; then I spoke about the organization of the special council to combat counter-revolution, sabotage, and speculation. This cmmcil was despotic, tyrannical, and unprincipled in its methods. They had power that it was said publicly was greater than Lenine himself possessed, and it was largely due to the workings of this special council that much of the terror- ism that followed was brought about. I will begin to speak of terrors after I refer to my own experiences. I was working in the A'ologda forest district. It was in July, 1918. I had in my pocket a letter from the commissar or the minister of commerce, Bronski, a letter from the commissar of agriculture. Kerelencho, and a letter fi-om tlie chief of the forest service, a bureau under the department of agriculture. These letters called on the soldiers and the employees of the northern governments to lend me every assistance possible. These commissars realized my mission to Russia was a peaceful one, and one which \ery likely would result to Russia's good-^they wanted the American public and the English-speaking pubhc to know about the forestal riches of Russia, and for that reason they were especially anxious that my work should be facilitated. About that time Lenine called on the allied embassies and legations that BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 309 were then located in Vologda to remove to Moscow. They refused, knowing the fate of the ambassador of Germany which had taken place just recently, and at the same time they felt that Vologda was a point where they could better struggle with the problem of the scarcity of food, on account of Vologda affording better transporta- tion facilities. This city, you know, is at the junction of the Trans- Siberian and Archangel-Moscow Railroads. Senator Nelson. It is the best way to get out of the country. Mr. Simmons- Lenine insisted on his proposal to come to JMoscow, and the American Ambassador, wlio was the dean of the corps, said that if there was any moving to be done he would mo^e to Arcn- angel, which he did. After he left, the only Americans — in fact, about the only foreign- ers — left, were the employees (jf the National City Bank, one of tlie embassy secretaries, and myself. A few days later the local Bolshevik leaders made these men leave Vologda and go to Moscow. The embassy's secretary refused, tliough they ordered him to go first. He told them he was not going to leave a station where there were American citizens for whose safety he was responsible. They made him leave — compelled him at the point of the bayonet. At 2 o'clock in the morning they came for him, so he told me. They put him on the train which took him to Moscow. Senator Overman. What was his name? Mr. Simmons. His name was Norman Armour, a man who put duty ahead of all personal consideration and safety, and a man that was a thorough American. Senator Steeling. He was secretary of the American Emljassy * Mr. Simmons. Yes; second secretary. Shortly after this the manager and the emplo.yees of the National City Bank, compelled to go to Moscow, departed from Vologda, and that left me the only foreigner in the community. I did not go, being sick with pneumonia, and I could not at that time leave my bed. After I got well I attended to v.ork in the immediate vicinity of Vologda, and then, wishing to change my base of opei'ations, I ap- plied to Kedroff, wlio was the commissar of that conununity, for permission to leave the city. One liad to have permission to leave any city or town, not any village. He replied, after looking over my papers and seeing that I had these from high ^loscow officials, that a man with such papers could go any place. He said, " Come back the day after to-morrow — I will not be here to-morrow — and then I will let you know." This delay disturbed me somewhat. The next day there appeai-ed in a newspaper of Vologda, wiitten ay Kedroff, a public declaration calling upon al] soldiers, peasants, md workmen to slioot at sight any American, Englishman, or Frenchman that they ran across; that citizens of these capitalistic 30untries were absolutely foes to the workmen's gOA^ernment, and my of these foreigners in the three northern governments over which le Kedroff, was supposed to be presiding were enemies to Eussia. According to his instructions, I came back to his office the next day md was presented to his assistant. His name was Iduke. Iduke is I Lettish Jew, a man of a very irascible nature, and, on account of lis experience in the uprising in Yaroslav, where the protest against 310 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. the Bolshevik regime had become quite formidable, he had the reputa- tion of being the cruelest and the most bloodthirsty Bolshevik leader of the revolution. He culled for the papers in my case, which I had left previously for Kedroff to look over. Picking up my diplo- matic passport, he looked at it, folded it one way. and tried to tear it as he threw it on the floor. As he did so he exclaimed that that passport was madi^ at the American Embassy in Eussia — which it had been, because I had my other passport stolen that I obtained in Washington — and he said that no such instrument so made would le recognized. It was signed hj the ambassador of the United States. David R. Francis. He then scrutinized hurriedly some of my other jiapers and said, " Your case requires me to put you in prison." There was an inter- ruption at this juncture of two Kronstadt sailors excitedly appear- ing at the door, which I may refer to later under another subject, but in about 30 minutes I was taken by the Eed Guards, three of them, and cast into a prison car. This car was attached to this field-staff train, the same wliere the officials mentioned had their offices. This car that Kedroff used was said formerly to liave been one of the private cars of the Czar. It was a very beautiful wagon. I was im- prisoned about 12 o'clock, the middle of the day. At about 4 o'clock in the afternoon I sent my secretary to ii>k Iduke the cause of my detention and to give me permission to estab- lish contact by wire with the American consular officials in ^loscdw. He came back apparently much distressed and worried. Tears were in his eyes. He said. "' Iduke says that the American consular and diplomatic officials in ^Moscow are in prison. No more are Americans recognized officially in Russia. As for tlie cause of your detention, if vou will ever know in this world, you will know to-morrow morn- ing at (;.;]o."" In this cell with me was a man who had been arrested previously. Although born in Russia, he had gone to school and graduated at Oxford, I think, or one of the universities of England. Liking the English people and England so much, he became naturalized. He returned, however, after some 12 or 13 years to visit his parents, who li\'ed within the Kostroma government. Governments in Eus- sia correspond to our States. He was not in anyway perturbed o\er his arrest when I met him in this Russian cell, the cause of which he did not know. He was a man humorous, light-hearted, and jolly. We played chess together. ^ly secretary happened to have a small chessboard in his portfolio. Tliis English subject was called before Iduke. I presume it was Iduke. Anyhow, he was called to headquarters about 4.30 p. m. He came back mentally much perturbecl. He said: "I do not like the situation. I do not understand these peoi^le. They are not Russian. I do not know why they accuse me nor what they are going to do with me." Abut a quarter to 7 that evening three soldiers came in with bayo- nets on their guns, in some sort of formation, and took him out. He wanted to take his coat — it was in the sununer time and he did not have his coat on — but they told him it was not necessary, and he left his coat, thinking, as I thought, he would return. He never re- turned. Later, on the way to Moscow. I learned — one of the guards told mv secretary — that he had been shot. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 311 Of his own volition, late in the evening my secretary wrote a declaration to Kedroff , outlining his personal activities in the interest of the Kussian revolution, stating that he had been in exile for 11 years under the Czar, and how he had assisted Kerenskjr after the first revolution. He gave as reference the minister of justice in Moscow under the Bolshevik regime. Senator Steeling. Do you recall who that minister of justice was, or is, if he is minister of justice? Mr. Simmons. I can not tell you that, sir. I just know he was the minister of justice. He also gave as reference a man by the name of Rosen, who was head of the Lettish division, formerly an editor in Boston of some socialistic paper. I had met him myself, previously. The word came back over the phone that this man who was my secretary was responsible, had been in thorough sympathy with the revolution, and belonged to the social revolutionist party. On the strength of such a good report, about 2 o'clock in the morning Ked- roff's secretary came into my cell, found me writing what I con- sidered my last letters, f.ucl stated that I would be sent the next day to Moscow for trial before the " speiial council to combat counter revolution, sabotage, and speculation." Up to that time I fully thought that mj' end was momentarily growing near. This was a wonderful relief, because I realized that of the people and government officials that I knew in Russia, many were in Moscow. The next morning about 10 o'clock they took me out of the prison car for a parade up the front streets of Vologda, soldiers in for- mation of four men making a square, with me a center, and we marched around the city. Being identified with the American Em- bassy, making it headquarters as T would come in and out of the city, this was done, presumably, to show the public what measures Bolsheviks were going to take against foreigners who represented the capitalistic countries. I was then, that same evening about 6.30, put on a train under special guard of three men. Two of them stayed in my coupe all the time and one in the corridor guarded the door. Just previously to leaving Vologda Iduke arrested xnj secretary because he had aided the Kerensky regime. They put him on the same train, also under guard, in another coupe. This secretary, I want to tell you, was a man of honor, and a socialist with a constructive point of view. I engaged a socialist as a secretary because of my many dealings with the Bolsheviki, and because I needed a man not antagonistic, who could make some impression upon the Bolshevik officials. This man had done work for, and knew well, Albert Rhys Williams. Being a liberal socialist, for the first two months of the Bolshevik revolution he was quite sympathetic to the Soviets. To-day, like all foUoAvers of liberalism, he is one of the strongest opponents of the Bolsheviki. Senator Nelson. This secretary of yours? Mr. Simmons. Yes. Senator Nelson. You say he had done work with Albert Rhys Wil- liams? Mr. Simmons. He knew him as a fellow socialist and had worked for him on translations, or something of that sort. On the train we 312 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Xelsox. Both of you? Mr. SiJiMONS. Botli of us. There, after being paraded up front streets, we were thrown in Lubanka prison. In the cell in which I was confined there were 85 men. Senator Xelsox. How big was the cell? Mr. SiMMOxs. About half the size of this room, sir; and there were sleeping accommodations for not over 30. We slept on the concrete floor. After photographing us they took away all bedding — of course, in Russia everybody has to carry bedding — all our food, our luggage and clothing, and even toilet articles. They took away every- thing except the clothes on my back, including all my notes and documents, and all money. Senator Sterling. Of what nationality were the men in that cell? IMr. SiMMOxs. If you please. Senator, I am coming to that in a second. I am giving you first this personal experience. I stayed in Lubanka prison three days. The third day about 4 o'clock they called my name. I walked forward, and the guards ordered me to follow the escoit of soldiers, who put me into an automobile ambulance, what we call a Black Maria. This vehicle hurried us through space, and after about 20 minutes' ride I got out in front of a large handsome building which was Beturka prison in Moscow. There, after going tlirough a long way of winding corridors. I was put into a cell with 25 men. There were sleeping accommodations for 23 in the cell. Again I had to take the floor, but only for one night. The next day tT\o from the cell were shot and one released. I stayed in Beturka five days, making my imprisonment a matter of 11 days, but, like in the first prison, I used almost every minute trying to think of some way of establishing contact with the American officials or officials of some of the other governments, principally the neu- tral nations, met from time to time during my stay in Russia. None of the letters that I wrote were delivered, and no declarations ad- dressed to Bolshevik ministers brought results. I wrote to the Red Cross, telling them I needed medicine; to tlie Y. M. C. A., telling them I needed food, because I had had none. I did not write, of course, to individuals, because that would have connected them with me in prison and resulted in their immediate arrest. I wrote also to the Swedish consul general, to the Norwegian minister, to the American consul general, to Commercial Attache Dr. Huntington, all, of course, officially ; but none of these letters were ever delivered. It happened that one of the guards in this part of the prison was a Lettish soldier who had been to America. He had lived in Law- rence, Kans. Having been there myself upon one occasion, I would jolly him as he passed to and fro, and got to be on rather good terms. I decided that I was going to try to bribe this man, as the only means of escape, for I was faced with the conditions that I either had to starve to death, or be shot in execution or if caught bribing, the penalty for which was death. In this cell of Beturka prison with me were fiive English sailors, who wei'e so weak from starvation that they could not walk across the room. They and every one in that cell warned me against attempting to bribe. They said it would mean my own death, and likewise the death of the prison guard. I could see no other way. Coincidentally, the day I wrote the letter to the Swedish consul general — ^thinking all BOI^HBVIK PROPAGANDA. 313 ;he American officials were in prison some place — one of the prisoners n my cell received 80 rubles baked in a loaf of bread sent in from his tamily. I borrowed this, and for the other 20 used a few rubles that oay secretary had hid in his sock, which they did not find when they searched him, and 10 rubles additional I go,t from one of the English jailors. This letter I wrote to the (Swedish consul general told him that [ was in prison; that I had, as he knew, a diplomatic passport; that r was. conscious of no wrong ; that my mission to Russia was entirely % peaceful one ; that T had taken no part in politics ; and I asked him for every assistance. This letter I took to this guard and said, " In- closed in this envelope, together with a letter, is 100 rubles. I am not offering it to you as a bribe. You do not have to take any money from ne. Deliver this letter and 100 rubles will be given you and more." Of course, this was a bribe. I said it was not, to him, being my crude iiplomacy. He refused to take it, explaining the instance of one of Lhe guards being shot for the same offense about two weeks before in ;liis very same prison.- The man who offered the bribe was also shot. But I replied that I was unjustly being held; that I had done every- thing in my power by correspondence to get my case brought to trial, knowing my documents alone would be sufficient to exonerate me, md that I thought he and every Russian was sufficiently interested in having foreigners of diplomatic status taken care of while in Russia. He refused the aid I sought. I went back to my cell very discon- solate. There was in the door of our cell the usual little peephole covered with a blind, such as is the door of every cell in a Russian prison. About two hours afterwards he opened the blind of the hole, calling my name. This guard said, " Simmons, if you have that letter with you and can put it through to me immediately, I will try," and he no more than said it before that letter addressed to the Swedish Consul General was through the hole, and down it went into his boot. I saw that through the peephole. During 36 hours elapsing after that I was one nervous man. But at the expiration of that time a calling card bearing Dr. Huntington's name, with a package having a loaf of bread and a few toilet articles, was given me, veritably a godsend, and on the back of the card was written, " Hold your nerve. We will have you soon." Four hours after that the Swedish consul general, accompanied by the acting American consul general, came in an automobile to the prison and effected my release. Now to come back to my point, I in this prison came in contact with a great many people. It gave me a very excellent opportunity, gentlemen, to see the kind of men that were in there, and to learn their opinions, and to hear about the causes causing their arrest. In Lubanka prison, where I had 85 fellow prisoners, the personnel sur- prised me. I expected to find princes and men of all titles, and capitalists and men of the caliber classed with these. There were a few of these but the majority I would term the middle class, me-, chanics printers, peasants — many peasants — small manufacturers, soldiers' priests, workmen, officers (army and navy), and professional men, students, etc. Senator Steeling. Merchants? :314 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. SiM:\roNs. Merchants: many small merchants. This situation interested me so much that I felt that it was my duty to use the opportunity. There was a forester among the prisoners, and there were sawmill owners. I ooi considerable information along the line of my in\-estigation in the parts of the country where these men were located. Xot only were many of these prisoners not of the upper •classes, but I know that I will surprise you when I tell you that 80 per cent did not know the cause of their arrest — not 80 per cent. Senator Sterling. Did you say that 80 per cent did not know why they had been arrested? ^Ir. SiiiMONS. Eighty per cent did not know why they were ar- rested. Arrests generally were being made without giving the charge. On the second day in this prison there was a lawyer by the name of Velenken, a very cultured fellow, a high-type Jew. He had been the legal counsel for the British consulate in Moscow. He was about -U years of age. He was a real patriot, actuated by high motives. He had many opportunities to leave Eussia, but he would not do it, because he said in revolution was the time that the intelli- gence of Eussia ought to stand by the country. After his arrest the special council gave him one short hearing, and they sentenced him to be shot. He came to me at 2 o'clock in the morning and aroused me from sleep off the floor, and he said, " Simmons, will you come and talk with me? I die at 6. Tell jne about Siberia." He had never been there. " Tell me about America. Tell me anything to keep my mind off my awful fate." I got up and went over and sat on the side of his bunk. He had unfortunately been in prison a great while and could occupy a bimk. I talked, trying to cheer him, for over an hour and a quarter. He then wrote a letter to his sister, which he gave me to deliver. I afterwards delivered it. He sent a verbal message of esteem and good-by to Ambassador Francis. Soldiers came about half an hour afterwards. They led ^Ir. Velenken out in the usual formation that all prisoners realized meant to be shot. He never returned. His brother later told me he had been shot, and the officials refused to surrender his body. That same day they led out a young prince. He rebelled, in con- trast to the nerve and resignation of Velenken. Senator Sterling. "\Yhat was he charged with? Do you Imow? ^Ir. SiMJioxs. Velenken had been charged with counter-revolution. Dnt he had done, he told me. nothing to overthrow the Bolshevik government. During his hearing they said, " If we let you off, will you promise to help us and do all you can to extend our cause? " He replied. " No; I can not." And he walked to death with resignation. That was the most pitiful sight that I ever saw. The sad duty fell to me of relating the details to his brothers in London, as I came through. The prince, whose name I thought I had, was led out for execution without trial. There was not a day passed that the same soldier formation did not take men out of that cell, and many of them went to death without accusation or trial. Xow, this is not hearsay. You have heard of these terrors, but I was present and saw them. Senator Overman. Expecting every minute to be shot yourself? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 315 Mr. Simmons. I did not know. They told me I was to be tried. No one knew his fate. When they called out my name that day when 1 was moved from one prison to another, they tell me I turned very white. Senator Sterling. So far as a trial was concerned, do you know anything about their form of trial? Mr. SmMONS. No; only what I was told. The lawyer who was shot said it was a perfect farce. The head of this council, a young- man by the name of Peters, had been in England and, I believe," there was convicted of crime. Of that I am not positive. Senator Wolcott. Some one has described him here as a man of pleasant manners, this particular lord high executioner. Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir; he was a man of rather pleasant appear- ance and very youthful looking. At the same time he was a man without principle and with no compunctions about ordering death penalties. The consul general, I think it was, of Italy, told me at the consulate of an experience happening at the time they were aid- ing me to get my effects away from the Bolsheviks after my libera- tion. He saw Peters sign an order for the execution of 71 officers, and never even I'ead the names. While Peters was talking to him he picked up his pen and wrote perfunctorily his name, ordering every one of those men to death. Senator Nelson. Those were officers of the old army ? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir. Now, one day while I was there they took out 21 with the same formation, only more soldiers. I heard that those men all went to their doom because outside they had 26 who had just been arrested, and they had to make room. I can not testify to the actual execu- tion of these men, but they went out under similar formalities, which the prisoners considered prima facie evidence. Senator Nelson. And never came back ? Mr. Simmons. Never dame back. Senator Steeling. With reference to many of them, they could have had no better excuse ? Mr. Simmons. None whatever. I want to tell you of the sad case of a peasant that I got particu- larly close to. There were many peasants prisoners, but this man met his doom while I was there. He was shot because he would not give up his food he had raised. I guess he" was tr\-ing to organize men in his particular village to resist the action of the poor commit- tees. The campaigns of those poor committees, as I explained, were to requisition food and to incite class antagonism among the peasants. He was an illiterate man, but not an ignorant man. You hear about the illiteracy of Kussia, especially among the peasants. Their close •connection with the soil, in trying" to make ends meet on the farm, engenders a judgment, a common sense, which makes them, although illiterate not ignorant. I am sure that we ha^e in our respective ■communities men who can not read and write, on ffirms, who are per- fectlv qualified to vote. This pea,sant was that kind, and in them is the hope of Kussian democracy. Another victim was a mechanic, a specialist on compound marine engines. He had worked for the navy under the Czar, under the iprovisional government, and was returned by the Bolsheviki on the 316 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. same job. They called on him to hetome afliliated with the workmen^ government, or the Bolsheviki. He refused, saving, " I am not a politician. I am entirely wrapped up in my work. I am happy in work. I do not want to join any organization." But that would not do. They arrested him. He was of as quiet and easy a temperament as any man I ever met. Thej' brought him to prison. When I left he had had a trial and was expecting to be shot. A high priest of the church was there. He had been preachinjz- ser- mons publiclj' denouncing the immorality of the Bolsheviki. They imprisoned him and shot him. This priest told me that he was a great admirer of Dr. ^lott, of America. Senator Xelsox. Dr. von Mach? Mr. SiJiMONs. Dr. Mott, of the Y. M. C. A. Senator Wolcott. John E. Mott. Mr. Simmons. He had been in Russia on the Eoot commission. He told me that he had taken some of Dr. Mott's writings and translated them into Eussian. He thought a great deal of him. He also told me about the relationship of the church, which I think it may be well to bring in here. His name was Vestor Goif. He explained that he was a priest — they call them " popes " in Eussia — and that it was his duty to denounce immorality, wrong, and injustice wherever he saw it, and he said, "Although I know I will die for this, I am glad I did it." He was a wonderful old man. I became very fond of him. I ijlaj'ed chess with him, and came to know him quite ^^•ell. Senator Steeling. He was an old man, you say ? Mr. Si:mmons. A man about 64 or 65 years old. but very alert, mentally as well as physically. He told me of an instance in Baku where a priest referred to the Bolshevik movement as " an emana- tion from hell." For that they arrested him. Over 3,000 men, women, and children stormed that prison and got the priest out and carried him around the streets of Baku on their shoulders. He said that the Bolsheviki could not open their mouths in the Eussian Cliurch, and he said that the awful terrorism that the Bolsheviks had been perpetrating, -which had existed and did exist, had driven people closer to the church than ever he had seen them before. Now that they found that every other means was taken from them, every possible retreat closed, they were crowding the chui-ches to the doors. Senator Nelson. Do you not think that the church in the end will prove the rallying center for the anti-Bolshevik forces ? Mr. Simmons. I think it certainly will be one of the principal fac- tors ; no doubt of it. That priest took the occasion, knowing that I was an official of the American Government, thinking that it was the last duty he could perhaps perform for Eussia, to beg me to go back and tell the American people, " For God's sake, send us help." He was speaking, gentlemen, not for himself, but for the large class of people that he represented. Senator Sterling. What kind of help did you understand him to mean ? Mr. Simmons. Eelease from this terrible oppression, this tryanni- cal rule of a small class that represented the depraved elements, largely ; people carrying on propaganda to engender class antagonism. They are the ones that constitute the Bolsheviki to-day. I ought to say, partially to correct the statement that I made this morning, that BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 317 there are among- the followers of the Bolsheviki some honest people who have been caught up in the psychology of the theories of Bol- shevism, and others who, in their terribly distressed physical con- dition, believe that in this is the only means left for them to pre- serve their lives. Senator Nelson. They rule, then, to a large extent by a reign of terror ? Mr. Simmons. Yes; that is what I am trying to prove now. Are these instances interesting to you? Senator Overman. Yes. Mr. Simmons. I can give you many more. I just want to use enough to illustrate the point. One man was the owner of a sawmill, a very intelligent fellow, and because he would not give over his industry and because the employees of his industry begged him not to give it over — for he knew that his product was needed in the city to meet local needs, his being the only mill that was running at that time — they threw him into the prison. His case had not come to trial when I left. Another man was a small merchant who had some goods to sell that he had saved and stored. There was not a large amount. I can not say exactly how much, but there was relatively a small quantity of textile goods. Because he offered them for sale at a time when all of these particular goods were supposed to have been confiscated — they had taken over all warehouses and deposits with big stocks in the country — they arrested him and threw him into prison for speculation. Now, gentlemen, when these men went to prison, what do you think becaime of their families ? They had no money that they could get their hands on, and they felt compelled to be there to protect their homes, because at this time lives were more or less in danger (_-yerj hour of the day. To be away from their homes produced a ter- rible worry in the minds of conscientious men, and the psychology of that cell was the most depressing experience that I ever expect to have. Those men could hardly be made to talk, eat, or sleep. They walked the floors like caged lions, wondering why they were there, what all this meant, and what was going to be their end. Senator Steeling. And wondering about their families? Mr. Simmons. And wondering about their families at home. Xow, I will go just a minute to the other prison and give you an idea what was in that prison. I told you about the five English sailors that came on H. M. S. Attentive to the White Sea. This was before any formal landing at Archangel ; a party of five sailors and an officer were out on duty of reconnoissance. They were in a motor boat. Overtaken by a large armed boat — Bolshevik cruiser — they wore forced to get aboard after being fired on and made to stop. Thev were sent down to Moscow prison as prisoners of war. Those men had not the strength, after 28 days, to walk across that cell. Our food, gentlemen, which is the same in all prisons, was two serv- ino's of weak soup, made out of dried fish, and if you ever tasted anythinrofessional criminals. Senator Xelsox. And had been sent to Siberia as criminals? Mr . Yes. c'crator Xelsox. They wei'c distinguished from that other class of people who were sent to Siberia for political rea,sons? Mr. . Yes. Senator Xelsox. They were sent there to live there and be confined there, but not in prison '. ilr. . A certain number of those prisoners in Siberia were political, but the greater number were just ordinary everyday crimi- nals. Xow, all of those fellows are posing as having suffered for the cause of freedom, and they have got themselves into high posi- tions in Bolshevik circles. Senator Xelsox. And their forces there in Petrograd are recruited from these criminal classes? Mr. . Yes, sir. Senator Steelixg. X"ow, may I ask, were the ordinary criminals sent to Siberia and allowed to live there without being imprisoned, or were they put in prison in Siberia, and the exiles, those who had been guilty of political offenses, sent there without being imprisoned? Mr. . No; I have seen myself prisoners going from Russia to Siberia, criminals and political prisoners mixed indiscriminately, and when they got to Siberia they were all confined in jails for a certain length of time, and then, if their behavior was good, they were let out on ticket of leave, and were allowed to carry on any business they could within certain well-defined limits. Senator Nelsox. The criminals were sent to work in the mines? Mr. . The criminals were sent to work in the mines, but if a criminal and murderer after being put in jail, after a certain length BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 327 of time, gave reason to believe that he was going to lead a decent life he would be given certain privileges. Senator Nelson, He would get a ticket of leave? Mr. . Yes, sir. Senator Overman. Did you know Lenine? Mr. '—. Never met Lenine. Senator Steeling. Or Trotzky ? Mr. . Never met Trotzky. Trotzky, as vou know, had lived for some years in New York, and I remember it struck me as being rather comical that when Kerensky was in power he asked the Ameri- can Government to give passports to Trotzky, because he thought he would be able to help him out. And he did help him out. Senator Nelson. They were both of Hebrew descent? Mr. . No ; Lenine is not. Senator Nelson. I mean Kerensky and Trotzky? Mr. . Well. I can not say absolutely or clefinitely about Ke- rensky, but I have heard on several occasions from different people in Russia that Kerensky's mother was a Jewess and his father was a Slav or non-Jew. The name Kerensky is more Polish than it is Eussian. Senator Steeling. Did you know any of the leaders of the Duma about the time of the breaking out of the revolution in March, 1917 ? Mr. . I knew Eodzianko, and I knew him well ; and I knew Miliukov. Senator Steeling. What would you say as to the ability and pa- triotism of these men ? Mr. . I think their patriotism was beyond any question, and the Duma was really the deciding factor of the revolution. If Eod- zianko and the other members of the Duma at the critical moment had said, " No ; we are opposed to the revolution," it would have fizzled out, but by getting back of the Duma and the news spreading over the country, the people were glad to take up the side of the revo- lutionists. Senator F-teflixg. Tlie attitude of the Czar and those who were influencing him, like Eazputin, the monk., etc., turned the leaders of the Duma, did they not, against the government ? Mr. . Yes; the thing got to be an open scandal, and the people could not stand it any longer. But Eazputin, if you remem- ber, was killed, not by socialists, but by members of the aristocracy, by a nobleman, the young Prince Usupoff. He was married to one of the cousins of the Czar. Senator Steeling. That was because they were determined to rid the Government of that evil influence? Mr. . Yes. Senator Nelson. Did you observe while you were there the opera- tions of the Germans and the German propaganda in Eussia? Mr. . Yes. Senator Nelson. Can you tell us about it? Mr. — ^ . I do not think I can tell you anything that I can say is absolutely unquestioned. Of course, the Germans had a greater liold on Eussia before the war than any other nationality. Senator Nelson. Economically and commercially? Mr. ■■ Economically and commercially, and also in their in- fluence at the court. The Czarina was a German, and although they 328 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGAITDA. say that when a woman marries a foreign husband she becomes a foreigner hei-self, that is not so. The leopard can not very well change his spots. Though they may be covered up, they are still there. Senator Nelson. Even the mother of the Czar, although she came from Denmark, was really a German? Mr. . Yes. Senator OvEEMA>f. The influence of the court was German? Mr. . Almost entirely. Senator. Nelson. And some of their officers and generals were of German descent and had German names? Mr. . Yes; had German names. The minister of the court was Baron Friedericks. He was a German. One of the most prominent generals was Gen. Rennenkampf, a German. And there were many others. Senator Steeling. How was the prime minister — Stiirmer ? Mr. . Pro-German. Senator Steeling. And the minister of the interior? Mr. . Protopopoff? He was a Slav. Senator Steeling. He was a Slav? Mr. . Yes, sir. Senator Steeling. But pro-German? Mr. . He was a timeserver. He was like a weathercock on a building. He would turn whichever direction the wind blew, and sometimes he would turn before it actually started to blow. Senator Nelson. Stiirmer was a dangerous pro-German? Mr. . Yes, sir. Senator Wolcott. What was the belief among the well-informed peojDle there concerning the report that the grand duke was removed from his command by pro-German sympathizers, because he was too Slavic? Mr. . I have talked with a great many people in Eussia about that, and the feeling throughout the country, both among the civilians and the army men, was one of great disappointment when the grand duke was banished. Senator Oveejian. He was considered a great soldier, was he not? Mr. . Yes; he had the confidence of everybody. Senator Wolcott. Was it their belief that the German influences removed him? ISIr. . Yes; the minister of war, Gen. Soukhomlinoff. He was pro-German. Senator Nelson. And is it tiiie as it was claimed in the papers that they failed to provide the army with munitons and military supplies as they ought to ? Mr. . Yes ; that is quite true. How much of it was due to general shiftlessness, lack of foresight, and how much was due to pro-German influence it is rather hard to differentiate, but the fact is that when the war broke out there was a great insufficiency of all weapons of war, and men, many of my own men that worked for me in the factory came back, and told me that they had been sent into action with bare hands, waiting to pick up the weapon of some one who had fallen before they could fire a shot. Other men have said that they went into action with clubs. But in spite of those enormous BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 329' drawbacks, in spite of the insuperable obstacles, the Russians in the first part of the war did heroic service, not only for Russia but for the allies, and it is my belief that had Russia not made that first excursion into Prussia, Paris would have fallen. Senator Nelson. I think that was a great help to the allies in 1914. That was under Rennenkampf. Mr. . Yes. But that was the time that Col. Massoyerdoff sold out to the Germans. That was the prime reason of the defeat at Tannenberg. Senator Nelson. That was at the time of the defeat in the battle of the Masurian Lakes ? Mr. . Yes ; and this fellow Massoyerdoff was related by mar- riage to the minister of war. Gen Soukhomlinoff. It was a nasty" German intrigue. Massoyerdoff was hanged, but that was too late. Senator Nelson. I think there was some treachery in that disaster at Tannenberg. Mr. . I think that is very well established. Senator AVolcott. Why was this such a victory for von Hinden- berg if there was so much rottenness on the other side? Mr. . One of the men that was in that campaign told me that he ran for about 20 miles stark naked because he wanted to get back. The neck of the bottle was closing in so quickly that they abandoned everything, even their clothing, and ran. Now, with regard to the Bolshevik leaders. One of the witnesses this afternoon mentioned the name Peters. Now, I have been very credibly informed that this Peters is a Russian anarchist, or probably a Lett, who had been living in Lon- don, and you gentlemen will no doubt recall some years ago an incident in White Chapel, I think it was on Sydney Street, where a band of dangerous anarchists were besieged in a house. Winston Churchill took charge of the operations, I believe. This Peters was one of this crowd, and this is the man now that is exercising the power of life and death over the decent element in Russia. Senator Nelson. Evidently he has taken a post graduate course to fit him for that job. Mr. . Yes. Then the feeling toM'ard this country — I would like to speak about that. During the war and after the revolution up to the time I left. The feeling toward this country after the war was a very friendly one. People thought that this country was dis- interested in its friendship to Russia, for I recall it is one of the Russian traditions that years ago at the time of the famine this country sent over ships with grain to help the people, and that had been passed down as a tradition. But after the revolution, when so many of these men that had been living in New York and Chicago came back to Russia, one of their first acts was to spread the reports around that America was not friendly to Russia, that it was a capi- talistic country, and that all they wanted was gain and to get money. All these returned Russians coming back to that country had been working in the sweatshops where they had been sweated by men of their own race, the Jewish race, and some of them may have spread these reports in good faith, had not known a better life in this coun- try had been sweated and had been exploited, their living condi- ticms had been bad, and the cost of living was high, and they spread 330 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. these reports over there that America was not that heaven on earth which some people had said, bnt was a miserable, grinding, capitalis- tic country. That began to have an effect upon the wide masses of population over there. Senator Nelson. Now, what is your idea of the food supply in Russia ? If they had means of transportation and distribution, do you think they have enough grain in Russia if it were distributed, if they had means of distribution, to supply their own people? Mr. . I can not give you an answer out of my own knowl- edge, but from people who have returned from Russia — Americans— and there are a large number of them now in Xew York that I know quite well, I believe that the stock of provisions in Russia is quite ample to feed the entire population, if they could only be distributed. Senator Xelsox. Xow, my recollection is that in normal times Russia had upward of 200,000,000 bushels of wheat for export — from 100,000,000 up to 200,000,000. IMr. . Yes. Senator Xelsox. They always had a few Provinces in the south- east of Russia that were in the arid belt, where crops frequently failed. That has been a frequent occurrence in the past, has it not? Mr. . That has been a very frequent occurrence. I can re- member in the years that I have been in Russia, probably three or four occasions that there were popular subscriptions to help the people who were starving. Senator Xelsox. Those were the provinces on the Lower Volga and the Don? Mr. . The last one was lower, as far as Orenburg, down through there. I remember our men in the factoiy took up very liberal subscriptions. Senator Xelsox. If they had transportation facilities so that they could distribute their food, they no doubt would have ample supply for their uses? Mr. . I think so. The manager of our company was over here in Xew York recently. We cabled him last fall to come over and let us know what was going on in his territory. His headquar- ters are at Irkutsk. It is about halfway across Siberia, near Lake Baikal. He arrived in Xew York the latter end of Xovember, and is probably back in Vladivostok now. He told me, with regard to the food supply, that all through Siberia there were large supplies, but that they were unavailable on account of the breakdown of the transportation system. Siberia has been a great butter country. Senator Sterlixg. Does this factor enter into the distribution of the food supply — the reluctance or the refusal of the peasants to give up their wheat, to sell it ? ^Ir. . Yes ; that is also a very important factor. I do know that even before I left Russia in our district, while it was not an agricultural district, that it was not comparable with the black-earth belt, is very much less productive, but in the outlying villages the peasants had dug holes in the ground — pits — in which to put their surplus grain. Then they had felled small trees and laid the trunks across and covered the trunks with earth, and covered them over so that nobody could find it. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 331 Senator Nelson. That was to keep it from the Bolshevik gov- ernment? Mr. . There was not a Bolshevik government at that time; • but the food situation was getting to be so serious, and parties were going out looking for food and taking it by force. This was a means which the peasants took to avoid that. Senator Nelson. I suppose that the peasants would not be unwil- ling to sell at a fair price ? Mr. . Money began to lose its value, and they did not want the money. I know of one case of a rolling mill near Moscow where the wages of the men had risen to such an extent that at the homes they Mere keeping this jDaper money in bundles, and one woman brought a bundle to the office and asked to have it changed, because the mice had eaten the corners off of it. Senator Wolcott. If a man wanted to buy a suit of clothes, he would have to haul the money down in a cart ? Mr. . A suit of clothes when I left cost 1,000 rubles. Senator Nelson. They had in Russia a species of cooperative com- pany, did they not? Mr. . Yes. Senator Nelson. Can you tell us briefly what their plan of opera- tion was? Mr. . The cooperative idea had taken firm root throughout Eussia and over through to Siberia. Senator Nelson. Is it among the peasants and the traders? Mr. . It is among almost everybody. There were all sorts of cooperative societies. There woulcl l)e one cooperative society among the peasants for the buying of seeds and the buying of agricul- tural implements. Senator Nelson. Are these cooperative societies buying societies or are they for both buying and selling? Mr. . Both buying and selling; buying and distributing. Senator Nelson. That is, they operate in their buying through these societies — these corporations? Mr. . Buying and selling equally. Senator Xklson. How has it worked; how has it succeeded? Mr. If a few people wanted to start a cooperative society, thev first draft by-laws, take them to the authorities and have them confirmed, then each one puis in a certain amount of money. It is •a sort of stock system. Senator Nflson. ^Vhat I mean is this, not just how they form them, but I mean what has been the result of the actual operation? Have they proved useful ? Mr. "- . I should say that they have proved distinctly useful, and they have increased very much since the revolution. Senator Nelson. And are they carrying on those cooperative societies now? Mp -. Yes: I believe they are, and the operations of them are much larger than before, from the point of view of the money turned over, but. of course, that is explained very largely by the denreciation of the ruble. Senator Nelson. Do they carry on bankmg m that way, too, through cooperative societies? 332 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. . Yes. Senator Nelson. And creamery business? Mr. . Yes. Senator Xelson. Siberia is a great butter country, is it not? Mr. . It is a great butter country. Senator Xklson. Is their butter made in creameries? Mr. — . Yes ; in creameries, and they are largely in cooperative creameries. Our man that I spoke of, our Siberian manager, tells me that there are thousands of tons of butter in Siberia now, and that in view of the lack of proper lubricants for railroad cars and wagons and trucks, they are using butter. Senator Nelson. It is a pity that we have iiot some of that here. Is it really good butter? Mr. . Splendid. I spoke awhile ago about the feeling in Russia toward the United States, that up to the time of the revolution it was friendly. But when these fellows came back and spread these reports about this country-, the feeling changed. There was at that time a little Bolshevik newspaper that has now become one of their chief organs, called the , which means The Truth, in which they had some very insulting articles directed against Minister Francis of the United States. This country went into the war after the revolution. Up to that time when any new country had declared war on the central powers, they had rejoicings and street processions and speeches. But when this country came into it there was nothing of the sort. The thing fell absolutely flat. Senator Overjian. AVere you there when the Eoot commission came over? Mr. . Yes, sir. Senator Overman. What was the feeling about that \ Mr. . I do not think there was any feeling; that is, no seri- ous feeling. It did not touch the great bulk of the people of Russia. Senator Oveejian. You said that they circulated the report that this commission represented the capitalists? Mr. . Yes ; although on the commission, as you know, almost everj' section of society was represented. Senator Sterlixc;. Do you think the cold reception which they gave our entrj' into the war was due to propagancla that was going on over there poisoning their minds? Mr. . That was probably the primary factor. ]Maj. Humes. Is it, or is it not, a fact that Lenine declared that there was a state of war existing between Russia and the United States? Mr. . He is said to have done so. Maj. Humes. In a public utterance? ^1y. . In a speech before the central soviet in Moscow, and then Tchitcherin qualified that by a long rigamarole which said they were not at war with the working classes of the United States, but that they were at war with the capitalists. Senator Nelson. From what you know about Russia, how do yon look upon the situation ? Do you think the bulk of the Russian peo- ple, the biggest share of them, are substantially anti-Bolshevik? Mr. — . I have no doubt of it. Senator Nelson. And they would be glad to have us give them a helping hand ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 333 Mr. . They are praying for it. Senatof Nelson. And what they need really more than anything else is ammunition and guns — military supplies? Mr. -. Yes ; I am of the opinion that it would require a very small American or allied 'force to bring about order in Russia, and it might not even be necessary for these fellows to fight, but to give moral support, and to act as a guard to the munitions which they would bring in with them. Senator Nelson. I understand — see if I am correct, and I gather this from what I have seen in the newspapers — that practically the anti-Bolshevik forces, those that are opposed to Lenine and Trotzky, have control of the whole Siberian line clear Txp as far west as Perm. Is that correct? Mr. — . That is my understanding. Senator Nelson. And that the Bolshevik government has no power in that country? Mr. . No. Hei'e is a map of Siberia and the greater portion of European Russia. [A map was shown and described to the members of the com- mittee.] According to newspaper reports the other day, the Omsk govern- ment has made arrangements with Japan to provide men, munitions, and money in return for iron and coal concessions along here [indi- cating]. This is very rich. Senator Overman. What province is that? Mr. . The pre- Amur, "pre" meaning at or adjoining the Amur River. Senator Steeling. Well, what -would you say with regard to the feeling in Russia generally as to Japan and Japanese intervention? Is there a prejudice against Japan, or a fear of Japan? Mr. . There is a certain fear of Japan, more particularly in Siberia, it being nearer. But in Russia, at the time I left, they were getting so pessimistic, and that was before the Bolshevik upris- ing, that they would have welcomed the devil himself if he had come to help them. There has been a very general feeling in that country and also in some of the European, countries that one of the contribu- tary causes of the revolution was the very bad labor conditions in Russia. I would like to go on record as saying that I do not consider that the labor conditions, as a whole, were bad. Senator Nelson. Wages were low, compared with our wages, and the hours of labor were long? Mr. . In our factory, and we are not an exception to the general rule, we worked exactly the same hours that we do in our factories in the United States. Senator Nelson. Eight hours? '^j-_ . Nine* hours. We are working eight hours now. That is the basic day. Senator Nelson. How do your wages compare with ours « ]y[j._ . About half, but the cost of living was about half. That is to say for all practical purposes the ruble may be considered as a dollar. No matter which way you take it, whether buying or selling. There are very large cotton mills on the line running from Moscow to Nijni Novogorod, and these mills are among the best in 33* BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. the world, magnificent buildings, well ventilated, with sanitary ar- rangements, excellent sanitary arrangements, and dormitories, both tor the married employees and also for the unmarried. Senator Nelson. Have they any woolen factories there? ^ir. . Yes, sir. Senator Xelsox. How are the flour mills l ^Ir. . A'ery good. Senator Xelsox. But I understand that their warehouse and ele- vator facilities are verv poor down in the black belt? Mr. . Yes. ' Senator Xelsox. That is, that they do not handle grain as we do in this country '. Mr. . Xot to the same extent, although down on the Black Sea, at Xovorosiisk, for instance, there is probably one of the largest grain elevators in the world, not far from Odessa,' along the shores of the Black Sea. Senator Steelixg. AVhat kind of wheat do they grow there, both winter and spring wheat, accordina' to latitude? Mr. . Yes. Senator Steeling. And is the sprini;- wheat grown farther to the north a hard wheat ? Mr. . Yes, sir. Senator Steeling. Will it compare Mith our hard wheat, such as is grown in the State of Minnesota, or the Dakotas ? Mr. . I am not an agriculturist and know very little about it, but from what I have heard I imagine it will compare very favor- ably with Minnesota wheat. Senator Xelsox. We have some of our vaiieties from there. They raise a good deal of rye in Russia, do they not ? Mr. . Yes. Senator Overjiax. They do not raise nuich corn? Mr. . Xo; not a great deal of corn. Senator Oveemax. How far is that from ^Moscow, where the allies are? Senator Xelsox. I think it is about 100 miles. This Kola line [in- dicating on the map] runs up to the Alurman coast. The Eussians built that after the war commenced. ' Air. . Incidentally, the Chinese coolies that were working on that line now form the nucleus of the Bolshevik army. Senator Xelsox. That road must be 700 or ,S00 miles long. Mr. . This military situ.ition in the north looks to me. going back to history to find a parallel, like the abandonment of Gen. Gor- don in Khartum in 188.5. Air. Gladstone was so much occupied with parliamentary reform that he did not take action until his colleagues in the ministry threatened to resign, and then he grudgingly sent a small force, but it arrived too late. Senator Xelsox. I think that if we had 20.000 men at Archangel, good soldiers, fighting men, and plenty of ammunition, and guns, tO' sui>]Tly the Rui^sians. it would end the Bolshevik government. Air. . Yes, sir. Senator Sterlixg. Of the two alternatives, the withdrawal of the allied forces in northern Russia or reenforcing those allies, which would be the better, do you think ? Mr. . To my mind, reenforcements. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 335 Senator Nelson. But we must remember now that this winter we can not get any ships into Archangel nor can any ships get out of there. That is the situation. The only way we can get relief is to send ships by the Murman coast and have them come down that way [indicating]. We could not get anything into Archangel now nor could the Archangel troops get out. Mr. . I do not know whether this road [indicating] is in working order or not. But even as it is there will be a long march across country. Senator Nelson. And they would have to control the railroad. Mr. . But they not only would ha^e to control the road that runs to Kola, but they would have to go across a tract of country some 300 or 400 miles. Senator Nelson. They would have to go down as far as St. Peters- burg. Mr. — . Yes ; they would have to cut south of Lake Onega and cut across here [indicating]. One of the witnesses the other day, I saw in the New York Times report, gave the assumed names and the real names of a lot of Bol- shevik officials. I have had in my possession quite a while a much shorter list and as the names in my list are included in the other one I do not think it is of any use. Senator Nelson. Does it include any names not on the other list? Mr. . It includes two or three. This is a list of the members of the executive committee of the Petrogracl Council of Workers' Deputies, constituted in 1917. Senator Nelson. Let us have them. (The list referred to is here printed in the record, as follows:) Members of the Executive Committee of the Petrograd Council of Workers' Deputies as constituted in 1917 ■ Known as : Real Name : Soukhanoff Himmel Kamenoff Rosenfeld Stekloff Nakamkes Zinovieff Apfelbaum Martoff Cederbaum Pargoul Helfand Zagodsky Xroknian Trotsky Bronstein Mr. . There is one other thing, if I may take a few minutes of your time. There was a certain Col. William B. Thompson, who was out in Russia for the American Red Cross. He returned to this country before I did, or about the same time, and this little pam- phlet that I have in my hand contains a speech of Hon. William M. Calder, of the United States Senate, January 31, 1918, embodying an address by Col. William B. Thompson at the Rocky Mountain Club, New York City. Col. Thompson's statement is very much of a brief for the Bolsheviki, and I consider it is the most insidious sort of propaganda that has been put out. There are statements here that time has proved to be entirely false. He said [reading] : At the time I reached Petro.grad that noble Russian patriot. Alexander Kerensky — and I am delil)enite in calling him a noble man — was attempting a coalition u'overnment, a government representing the rich and the poor. The rich, however, were not satisfied to work with the poor. That is not so. Known as : Real Name : Gorefe Goldman Meshkovsky Goldenberg Larln Lourier Bogandoff Silberstein SkobelefC lAll Grueinians. Their Cheidse > names are their real Tseretelli J names. 336 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGATS'PA. And again [reading] : The terrorism under which the llmitetl property-owning class is living in Russia is slight compared with the terrorism in which the workinintian and the peasant lives in contemplating a return of the power of the old regime. Nonsense. He says [reading] : I will say right here that if at any time during my travels I was a witness of deeds of wanton destruction and violence, it was not in Russia. If at any time I was subjected to any discourtesy or incivility, it was not in Russia. If at any time I was in danger, it was not in Russia. And again [reading] : When I sa.\ that they want peace, I do not say that they want a separate peace. Democratic Russia, in my opinion, will never make a separate peace with autocratic Germany. The present government has not ordered the sol- diers a\\ay from the trenches. On the contrary, it is filling the places of de- serters with new soldiers recruited from the reh guard. And others of like language. Senator Nelson. When was that printed? ilr. . This was printed in 1918. It was printed in the Gov- ernment Printing Office in "Washington. ^laj. Humes. When was the speech delivered? Mr. . In the Senate the 31st of January, 1918. Senator Nelson. Delivered here in the Senate? Senator Overman. Yes; I remember Senator Calder put it in. I remember when he put it in. Mr. . The iDoint I would like to emphasize about this thing is not so much the statements here but the propaganda possibilities, because I have a niece who is a teacher in the New York public schools, and these things were distributed among the teachers to give to the children. That is what I call Bolshevist propaganda of an in- sidious kind. Senator Nelson. Did you know him when he was in Eussia? jNIr. . I never met him. Maj. Humes. Do you know whether he assisted the Bolsheviki there? Mr. . There were rumors to that effect, but I do not know whether he did or not. I can not say. Senator Nelson. He is reported to be a very wealthy man, is he not? Mr. . Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. A millionaire? Mr. . Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. How did he acquire his millions? Mr. . By the sale. I believe, of copper stock. Capt. Lester. I would like to ask JMr. a question or two about the work of the Creel bureau in Petrograd, the Bureau of Public Information. Did you observe any of the activities of that bureau there? Mr. . I think all I can say about that is this. When our very efficient and very faithful consul, Mr. Summers, was in Moscow and sacrificed his life for his country's service, he asked me one day whether, in view of the ramifications of our organization through- out Russia, we would consent to distribute material, and I told him I would be glad to do so, and I furnished the list of names of our BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 337 office managers throughout the country, and he said he would under- take to send them this material, but I can not say whether it was done or not. It was shortly before I left the country that he asked me about it. Senator Overman. Is there anything else that you wish to state? Mr. . No, I think not, sir; but I can only express my own personal gratification of the highest kind that you gentlemen have undertaken this inquiry. I have been back in this country for more than a year, and I felt like a prophet in the wilderness. Nobody seemed to care what I had to say about Russia. But you under- stand that what I have said in criticism of the Eussian people applies only to the Bolsheviki, and there are no doubt large numbers of people calling themselves Bolsheviki simply because the only way to get something to eat is to profess Bolshevik doctrine. Senator Overman. Do you think that Bolshevism is a menace here now? Mr. . I think it is a very severe menace, and as I think I said when I began to give my testimony, the fact of this taking place in Russia is merely incidental; that if this country had presented the same conditions as Russia did when these fellows started their active campaign, it would have been this country, or it might have been France, or Portugal, or it might have been Brazil. They, with intense cunning, selected their ground, the ground that promised the best fruits, and I think they made the best selection they could possibly have made, but I do think it is a severe menace not only for this country but for the rest of the world. Senator Nelson. The documents in this country show that they are now engaged in a propaganda of the most vicious kind. I have documents in my room that came right from Minneapolis, in the State of Minnesota, where I live, a city about the size of "Washington, and I am surprised at the number of Bolsheviki they have out there. (Thereupon, at 5.45 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee adjourned until Monday, February 17, 1919, at 2.30 o'clock p. m.) 85723—19 22 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. MONDAY, PEBEiUABY 17, 1919. United States Senate, Subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary, Washington^ D. C. The subcommittee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 2.30 o'clock p. m., in room. 226, Senate Office Building, Senator Lee S. Overman presiding. Present: Senators Overman (chairman), Wolcott, Nelson, and Sterling. Senator Overman. The committee will come to order. Mr. Sim- mons, you may proceed. TESTIMONY OF MR. ROGEH E. SIMMONS— Resumed. Mr. Simmons. We were speaking, at the close of my testimony on Saturday, of the acts of brutality and other terrorism which I saw while I was in prison. There are a few things that I want to tell you about, which I noticed when I got out of prison. The first is that by force of arms men and women were compelled to labor ; not at any labor that they chose, but at any labor that the Bolsheviki assigned to them. Much of this labor was of a character for which they were totally unfit — even physically unfit. For instance, men who had been making a living by their brains — lawyers, merchants, clerks, school-teachers, etc. — many of whom had reached an age when it was hard for them to buckle down to physical labor, were compelled, with machine guns behind them, to go into the ditch, to street cleaning, to unloading railroad cars of wood, coal, flour, and other heavy freight, and to haul cumbersome materials on wagons, such as stone, brick, and lumber. Further — although I did not see it, still I have heard of it many times — ^that many such people were compelled to dig the graves in which their own class and others were soon to be buried. I remember one instance of a lady. I was walking from the Eu- rope Hotel to the American Embassy. Senator Kelson. In Petrograd? Mr. Simmons. In Petrograd ; yes, sir. There was a gang cleaning the streets with picks and shovels by loosening the snow which, of course, by being driven over for days, had become very packed, almost ice. To remove it required the use of picks. Among this force was a young lady of, I should say, perhaps the age of 22 or 23 years, dressed in a sealskin coat, and whose general appearance showed that she belonged to the upper classes. Her manipulation of the pick was one of the most amusing instances I saw. She was barely able physj- 339 y4U BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. cally even to raise the pick. She toiled with great labor. I walked over to her and said that apparently she was incapable of doing such work. Her reply ^yas that she was compelled to, for the little money tliat her father had left her mother and herself had been lost when the banks were confiscated, and that she could not buy any food with- out money. Food was at a very high price, therefore it was necessary for her to work, and that the only work they would assign her to do was this using the pick and shovel. Senator Wolcott. Do I understand that they would not permit her to work at something else if she could have found it ? Mr. Si3iM0NS. There was little else available except what officials would assign. Senator Wolcott. They had the reins so in their hands that they could Mr. Simmons. They directed all labor; yes, sir. Senator Wolcott. They were the task masters, so to speak, of the nation ? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir. Senator Wolcott. And put the people to work in whatever way they wanted? Mr. Simmons. Yes. Senator Wolcott. Eegardless of the aptitude or condition of the particular citizens? Mr! Simmons. Yes, sir. And to show you the character of this woman, I offered her — of course, I pitied her — a small sum of money. She refused, and turned her back and walked away, saying that she could not stand the strain of this labor, but she refused the money. Virtually, she implied by so doing that she did not want charity; she wanted work. Another instance. I was carrying from the American consulate a heavy package — fairly heavy, because the distance was long — and I guess I showed I M'as laboring under it a little. A very neat-looking girl of the middle class came up to me and asked permission' to carry the package. When I looked at her frail stature I told her that she could not do it. She replied that she had to make money, and she wanted to do any work possible. I offered her a little money; she also refused to accept it. As for the men, it was a very frequent sight to see them, as I told you, laboring with horses and carts, shoveling material off the carts, etc., and many of them you could see were neither experienced nor capable of such work. Many of them also were sent to dig trenches at the various fronts, I remember hearing. Senator Overman. Could you tell from the faces of those people whether they were hunger-pinched or starved ? Mr. Simmons. As to these particular ones I can not say that I noticed that, sir; but I very frequently noticed people whose faces indicated hunger, manj^ people unable to get on their feet as the result of hunger, and some dead, who they said died of hunger. -^? to these particular ones, I did not notice it. Senator Wolcott. When you use the expression " get on their feet," do you use it metaphorically, or is that literally true? Mr. 'Simmons. In a literal sense. Perhaps you do not know that hunP'er affects people in that manner. The first thing, they sit down, BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 341 and then they fall over as if from exhaustion, and then they say death conies slowly. There were many of them, very refined looking and very substantial people, whom you could see sitting on doorsteps, on curbs, and places of that kind, who would tell you, begging, that they were in dire need of food. Senator Sterling. Did you hear, Mr. Simmons, of the case where old men were made to dig the graves of their sons condemned to death and who were thot ? Mr. Simmons. Of their sons? Senator Steeling. Yes. Mr. Simmons. I do not think T ever heard that phase of it, sir; but I heard many, many times that they were compelled to dig the graves of friends and people of their own class, and often their own graves. Senator Overman. Even to dig their own graves? Mr. Simmons. Yes ; and I would hear that they would be arrested soon afterwards because they would protest, or on some pretext, and as a result would be thrown in prison, and die thei'e or be executed ; but. as I say, they were rumors, and I did not see the occurrences. The men were not only compelled to labor, but they were com- pelled to go into the army. Alexander Schultz was a friend of mine. "When the war broke out he was in Switzerland, where he had a home — work of some kind — and he had small means, inherited from his father. He sold his property at the outbreak of the war and went back home and put his funds into bonds, because he wanted to help in the prosecution of the war. Senator Wolcott. Put it in Russian bonds? Mr. Simmons. Russian liberty bonds. He went back to Russia, enlisted in the army, and worked himself up. When I saw him — ■ just after the army was demobilized — he was a lieutenant. Bolshe- viks compelled Mr. Schultz to go into service to help the organiza- tion and disciplining of the Red Guard Army, and he told me that they compelled him by force to do it. He said he loathed it and that he would do anything in his power if he could only get away to go up north and join the allies. He spoke of many other officers among his acquaintances who would do likewise if this duress of arms was not behind them, and if they were allowed to leave the country. One of the guards of my prison was a Lett. He spoke English, having been in England. I said to him, " Why are you a Bolshe- vik? " He came right back and said, "I am not a Bolshevilst" He said, " I would get out of here in a minute if I could, but I can not leave even the city without permission. If I do not stay and do my duty as a guard and as a soldier, I will be shot, as others have been." I was saying that men were compelled to serve in the army, and that by the policy of force the Red Guard organization had been largely built up. It started, as you know, with the Lettish troops, who were brought into Russia with promises of big pay and plenty of food and grain from other sources, I presume as the result of plunder. Letts, with contingents of Chinese, and German prisoners, were the nucleus of the Red Army. The Bolsheviks had great trouble in get- ting numbers of Russians to join and help them. It was after the leaders saw the protests of the people rising universally that 342 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGAJJDA. they resorted to the force of arms, the machine gun and the bayonet, to mobilize the Red Army. Conscription was from the age of 16 or 18, I do not know which, to 55 years. Senator Overman. By means of these Lettish troops they were able to disarm the, people and get munitions and guns, were they not? Mr. SiMMoxs. Yes, sir. Senator Overman. Their purpose in disarming the people was in order that they might force or compel this terrorism ? Mr. Simmons. Yes; one of the worst things in regard to the terrorism was the " leveling of intelligence," as was made public in one of the speeches of either Trotsky or Lenine. I am sorry I have not the documentary' proofs of this, as I did not have time before I left home to get them, but I think that you will find from witnesses who follow me — and I trust that one of them at least will be able to submit to you documentary proofs — that this aim of the leveling of intelligence was one of the most ghastly aspects of the terrorism. Men who were thought to have more intelligence than was healthy for the cause of the social revolution were arrested and imprisoned, and I am sure I am right when I say many of them on this ground were put to death. This leveling of intelligence followed a declaration in a public speech — I do not think it was a decree — of one of the leaders, and this policy, if grasped, will show you how dangerous this whole international campaign of the Bolsheviks, based on class antagonism, is. Famine, gentlemen, was widespread, especially in the cities, and by the use of food, as well as by the use of arms — ^because the Bolshe- viks had mobilized the food supplies available for distribution, and they used it as they used arms — they compelled people to bow to their behests. I remember that this man Alexander Schultz, of whom I spoke, who was a lieutenant, told me of officers who were fighting against the English and the entente and the Americans, as well as the Czecho- slovaks, because the authorities said, "We have the food, and if jou want to save your family, your wife and your children, from starva- tion j'ou will have to take up your gun or your sword and go into the army." Aside from that the prices of foods, as you know, were extortionate; and even if you had the money, it was almost impossible to buy it outside of the community stores ; and the food, of course, there would not be'feold except on cards, under a rigid system of distribution. All of this terrorism, gentlemen, the result of Bolshevism, I think was instigated by Germany, for the Bolsheviks had been put in power by Germany. I do not think this story I am going to tell you has ever been printed, and I doubt if more than a few of the Americans formerly in Russia know anything about it, but it makes a strong case. The man who told me this was the man who directly did the work, and when he told it to me I thought it was of sufficient importance to take him to Moscow and make him repeat it before the American consul general under oath. Senator Wolcott. By the way, did he go with you and make his statement under oath? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir. Wlien the war broke out this man was teaching in a school in Germany. He was a socialist and a Russian; BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 343 had been in exile in Siberia under the Czar and had worked for many yea.rs to bring about revokition in Russia. He was a socialist, but a socialist of the conservative type that believed in bringing about socialism by evolution and not by revolution. One day a man came to him and said, " The imperial chancellor wants a Russian to go to Switzerland to study the schools of socialism." Senator Nelson. Who was the imperial chancellor at that time, Stiirmer ? Mr. SiMMOis's. No; HoUweg. Senator Nelson. You mean the imperial chancellor of Germany? Mr. Simmons. Yes. I do not remember exactly at that time, but this was just before the Russian revolution — ^the first revolution, of March, 1917. Senator Nelson. It was Bethmann-Hollweg, I think. Mr. Simmons. That is what I thought. They wanted a man to go^ to Switzerland because that republic was the seat or the headquarters' of the different schools of socialism — Russian socialism particu- larly — and they wanted a study made with a view to finding out the most radical school. He tried to induce the socialists to undertake this, knowing he wanted to bring about revolution in Russia, or, in other words, to overthrow the Czar. • They said the German Govern- ment was willing to appropriate 5,000,000 marks if that school, or the men representing that school, would go into Russia and start a propaganda. This man, mj' informant, being a Russian intern and knowing that the war was going on, could not exactly figure out how to sum up this proposal. He took it to an American who was interned also, or stayed there. I do not believe we were at war then, but he was stay- ing there because his aged mother, in" delicate health, could not be moved. He is well known as a prominent American, and, I believe, to-day is in Hamburg. To him he took the proposal of ^he imperial chancellor for advice, and after a long discussion the American ad- vised my informant to accept the job, thinking that it might lead to something of importance to the allies. He therefore accepted the work, and went to Switzerland to visit and mix among all of the Socialists. In a 300-page report to the imperial chancellor's office he stated that the school headed by Lenine was decidedly the most radi- cal, but recommended that no connection be made with Lenine, be- cause if his ideas were practiced it would bring about utter chaos in Russia, economical, social, and otherwise. He was highly commended and well remunerated for this work, and by means of it he was able later to reach a position so as to effect his escape from Germany. When he got back to Russia the first revolution had taken place, and he put all information and his services at the disposal of Kerensky, Kerensky giving him quite an important position for it. Now gentlemen, if you will take that story and then the facts as they have been made public subsequently, of Lenine being ushered through Germany into Russia from Switzerland Senator Nelson. You mean from Switzerland, through Germany, into Russia? Mr. Simmons. Into Russia when the war was going on, and then take the documents brought out by Mr. Sisson that you have had, I 344 ' BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. guess, presented to you, that shows that the German Government was giving them money to carry on the Bolshevik government and with the fact of German officers being found in tlie Red Army, you can see it is a very strong case ; that there was collusion between the Ger- mans and the Bolsheviks. Now, I do not say that Lenine was an out-and-out agent and did the will of the German Government. I should make a guess and say that he said to them something of this order, " If my ideas and my propaganda and my efforts will j&t in with your plans, all right; but my plans as I have outlined them," and he had outlined them in his books, and everybody knew them. " will have to fit into German aims." I do not know that Lenine has been the tool of Germany, I do not know that he was the agent and did the will of Germany, and I do not want to leave that idea with you as coming from me. Senator Wolcott. Whether he did as they said or not, he did what 'they desired? Mr. Simmons. He did what they desired; that is the point. I think Lenine almost acknowledges that there was an understanding, if not an absolute agreement, if I may read this excerpt of this speech he made, which appears in a certain issue of the paper Izvestija, No. 223. Senator Nelson. A Russian Bolshevik paper? Mr. Simmons. Yes, Senator. This says, " The capitalists have not yet disappeared (meaning quite disappeared from Russia). Ger- many has now sent awaj- our representative, pointing to our revolu- tionary propaganda. We became dangerous only after tliey were crushed in war." I think that that implies that there was some relationship. There was a battle between those protesting against Bolshevism and the Bolsheviks in Yaroslav. I happened to pass through shortly after the battle began, and our train was delayed over 11 hours because the fighting was going on very actively around the station. Senator Nelson. That is northeast from Moscow, is it not? Mr. Simmons. Northeast from Moscow ; almost north. It is on the railroad that goes from Vologda to Moscow. It is about halfway between. After this battle, which was won first by those protesting, or what they fall the White Guard, and subsequently by the Red Guard, who, alter driving out the White Guard, murdered many non- combatants, including women, there was a photograph taken, which the Bolsheviks had made themselves, of the officers engaged in this battle. Among the officers were German officers in German uniforms. Senator Nelson. That was of the officers of the Red Guard ? Mr. Simmons. Of the Red Guard, and the German officers were wearing iron cross decorations. This picture I saw myself, and it fell into the hands of a friend of mine who showed it even out of Russia. Senator Wolcott. You saw it in Russia and then you saw it after you left ? Mr. iSiMMONS. I saw it in Russia, but I understand he carried it out. Here is a statement which bears on this. " I had frequent opportunities," writes this friend of mine, " for visiting Bonch Bruevitch at his home in the , as well as visiting an intimate friend of his, , the secretary of the famous writer, Tolstoi, and a man of unquestioned sincerity. Stated bsolsheVik pbopaganda. 345 that told him that the Bolshevists had already entered into a definite agreement with the Germans to receive help against the English in the north and against the Czecho- Slavs in the east, if that proved necessary. The Germans had agreed to respect the Soviets and not to interfere with the government, but confine them- selves strictly to military operations. Already stated that some heavy artillery and some German officers and soldiers had passed around Petrograd on their way north." Now, Bonch Bruevitch, if you will remember, on Saturday I told you was the private secretary of Lenine. He is in Lenine's office and is intimately connected with him, and has considerable influence over him. Another story that will interest you in this connection, and I think you should know, is this: If you will remember, I told you that as I was sitting in the office of Iduke, after I was taken prisoner, there was an interruption. That interruption was the entrance of two Kronstadt sailors. They said to Iduke, " We have a train out here of some 400 or more sailors that are going to the White Sea front, but we refuse to go any farther unless you give us more bread. We are only getting a pound and a quarter per day." Iduke, in his irascible way, very insolently refused, and ordered them to leave his office. They replied in the same spirit in which he refused, that if he would come to Kronstadt he could then learn enough system to be an efficient officer and to ration his units. That so enraged him that he beckoned to his Red Guards who were stand- ing by and said, " Put these men under ground in 20 minutes," and I was told by my guards that took me to Moscow that those men were under ground in 20 minutes. Senator Nelson. Four hundred of them? Mr. Simmons. No; the two that represented the 400, that came into the office. But in about three-quarters of an hour they learned that these men had disappeared, and those 400 men got out of that train and riddled the car in which Iduke had his office — not Kedroffs car, but they riddled his car — so that it looked like a tin can that had been shot at a hundred times, and I tell you their action was quick. To stop that mutiny they brought down a company of Lettish troops that was garrisoned in the town of Vologda. They finally made the Kronstadt sailors go back. In the maneuvers back and forth the Lettish troops came past the window of my prison car, led by two men in civilian clothes whom all three of us — there was another prisoner, you will remember, an Englishman, that was in my cell, and my secretary who was standing outside talking to us through the bars — agreed were Germans. They possessed the facial dis- tinctions. Senator Wolcott. Let me ask this as a matter of curiosity. The sailors did not kill Iduke, did they? Mr. Simmons. No. They thought he was in that car, but he was not, I am sorry to say. Now, ydu have heard of the Bolshevik government. I want to tell you that in a literal sense it is no government, there being little coordination and no cohesion in the different branches of this gov- ernment. One branch does not recognize another branch, and often one authority in one town or one province will not do the will or 346 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. obey the orders from Moscow. I think you have already heard that when the American authorities left Moscow, when they got as far as Petrograd, even though all of us had the ^■ises of Tchitcherin, the minister of war, on our passports, the Petrograd commune refused to recognize that vise; and in many other parts of Eussia, as, for in- stance, in certain towns on the Volga, the authorities in those towns in many cases — ^not in all cases — where they did not consider it was to their special advantage would not recognize the orders of Moscow. There are seven or eight principal political parties in Eussia, and I want to call your attention, gentlemen, to one very important fact, and that is that these parties represent a relatively small per cent of the populace. The great mass are unorganized — have no party affilia- tion. They do not know what socialism means or what democracy means. They do know that they do not want czars, monarchy, and they do know that they do not want Bolshevism. But in this revolu- tion the unorganized masses and this vast unorganized body of Rus- sians are the great sufferers. Senator Nelson. That is, the peasantry? Mr. Simmons. Principally the peasantry, the women, and others connected even with industrial classes. Senator Sterling. Traders and merchants? Mr. Simmons. And the small shop keepers and inanj^ of the people who go to make up the middle classes. The socialists, except unprin- cipled socialists, are not hand in glove with the Bolsheviki. In two of my prison cells were socialists who were expecting to be led to death; in fact. I saw two led out for execution. I did not see the actual shooting. The socialists of Scandinavia have made open declarations abso- lutely opposed to Bolshevism. The Bolsheviki are enemies of the socialists just as much as they are in favor of shooting monarchists and the clergy. So, therefore, I want to say that the Bolshevik government is a very poor institution and should not be considered as a government at all. It does not represent Eussia in any way, form, or manner. Senator Nelson. I suppose they have different departments there, or pretend to have, at Petrograd, but they each work on their own hook, do they not? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir; considerably so. Senator Nelson. That is, they have a department of foreign af- fairs and a treasury department? Mr. Simmons. Yes; and a department of commene, and of agri- culture, etc. Senator Nelson. But there is no cohesion between those different departments ? Mr. Si:Nr5ioNs. In tlie city of Moscow, where they are all together, I think there is, but where there is a representative of the department of foreign affairs in a town, say, like Saratov — departments have representatives in nearly all the principal provinces — there exists little or no cohesion. The government that administers the region around Saratov does not bow to the orders given from Moscow in all cases, just like I showed you the case of the Petrograd commune not recognizing the vises given by the Moscow national government to the Americans leaving Eussia. BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 347 Another thing in regard to this government I learned from the peasants, and that is that you hear the name soviet as a system that they are following. The soviet bases its representation on a numeri- cal labor-class unit. In other words, for every thousand — I think it is a thousand — iron workers, there is a soviet representative ; for every thousand wood workers in a particular line there is a representative; for every thousand textile workers there is a representative. The unit of representation is based upon labor classes, whereas we base ours on geographical limits. Xow, when this system of Soviets is applied to all classes of labor, men doing work, whether they be pro- fessional men, brain workers, or men who aid in production of wealth and are helping the common welfare, which was, as I under- stood, the original idea of the soviet, it then takes the form of a democratic government. You ma}' be surprised to know that this form of government originated in the brain of an American — Daniel de Leon — so Lenine has told us. The Bolsheviki claim they have adopted the soviet, but the educated peasants say they, by perverting it, have robbed it of its true significance and value, first, because they have infused the class issue. Instead of allowing all classifications of labor and constructive work to be represented, they limit representa- tion to manual laborers. Secondly, at first they allowed all political parties, or nearly all, except monarchists to be represented, but when they saw that the parties opposed to them were in the majority in the all-Russian soviet, then the Bolsheviki used their bayonets and drove out all parties except a part of one party, which stooped to become quite nearly in sympathy with them. This so-called democratic in- stitution or form of government soviet was perverted into a virtual autocracy. Senator Nelson. They drove out everybody else but manual laborers ? Mr. Simmons. Manual laborers. But not all manual laborers are in any sense represented, because many of the manual proletariat do not subscribe, as I tried to tell you on Saturday, to the Bolshevik idea. Senator Ovebman. So this Lenine government is really an auto- cratic government, and not a democratic government ? Mr. Simmons. That is right, yes; and an autocracy of the worst order. So bad, in fact, that the pendulum has swung from a mon- archy to absolute anarchy. Senator Nelson. Instead of being merely an autocracy at the top, as the Czar's government was, this is a sort of autocracy by step- ladder from down up, and from up down? Mr. Simmons. Yes, Senator. Senator Nelson. These local bodies, Soviets, are autocracies, and then you come to the larger Soviets, which are autocracies, and then the central one is an autocracy, so it is one autocracy built on another ? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir; precisely. Senator Nelson. Is not that the situation ? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir ; it appears that way. As one man stated to me in Scandinavia, the Czar's govern- ment was Bolshevism of the upper classes, whereas the Bolshevik ^bvernment is Bolshevism of the demoralized classes, and the point 348 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. that the peasants made, and I have talked to many of them, is that the true conception of the soviet form of government has all been perverted by limiting representation to a few labor classes and to one political party, so that when the Bolsheviki use this word " soviet," calling the government a soviet government, they are using the word more as a camouflage. To the minds of many it conveys a wrong meaning, and this point is a very good idea to keep in mind. Senator Steeling. Under the present system the members of any local soviet may be imported from elsewhere ? Mr. SiMMOxs. Absolutely; they can come from any place. And that leads me to the subject of land. You may not remember that when the Bolsheviks took hold of power, they gave the soldiers peace at once with the Brest-Litovsk treaty, and the peasants land by promulgating an arbitrary confisca- tion of land, and that rendered impbssible any organized land re- form. The soldiers went on those large estates, as did the peasants who were land thirsty, and in the scramble ruined property. They would burn the houses and buildings, kill live stock, destro}' implements, and often murder the owner in their greed for possession and the biggest slice. As it stands to-day there has been no equitable dis- tribution. If the revolution was settled to-day, the land question, you would find, would be as imminent as before the revolution. I told you about the poor committees, and hoAv they incited the landless peasants against what they called the bourgeois peasants. This caused tremendous bloodshed in the little peasant villages. Before the Bolsheviki took possession of the government you may remember that the mir and the zemstvo — I guess you all know what the mir and the zemstvo organizations are — -were entirely freed from the influence of royalty and the owners of large estates. The peasants were vei y well satisfied, and especially when Kerensky promised a sensible, organized land reform as soon as the consti- tituent assembly should meet. They were patient, would have waited for the constitituent assembly, and in fact did wait. For this rea- son the Bolsheviks have had trouble Avith the peasants and have never gotten them on their side, except the landless peasants, to whom they appealed by promise of gain ; and incited class hatred in their minds and hearts. But they have never gotten the rank and file, even 80 per cent of the peasantry, on their side. I want to talk to you about the nationalization of industry. One of the worst jobs done by the Bolsheviki was in what they undertook in connection with the banks. You have already heard consider- able about it. I only intend to mention it. I refer to the nationali- zation of the banks. Having been employed in a bank myself for three years, I never saw such a chaotic, mixed up state of affairs. They took over all of the banks and tried to consolidate them into one. The details of this work — and yon can assume how tremen- dously voluminous must have been the details of this consolidation, as large as many of the banks were — fell into the hands of people who knew little about the business, principally into the hands of sailors, I noticed, factory hands and workmen who had otherwise made their living by manual work. Men of this caliber undertook this gigantic task, and I remember in one instance where a man told BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 349 me that his balance before the banks were taken over was, we will say, 10,000 rubles, and after consolidation his balance was 1,000 rubles. A anan who had 1,000. rubles to his credit before the taking over of these institutions would very likely have found 10,000 to his credit. The Department of Commerce wired nie $1,000. Nationalization having taken place, it came to one of the branches of the Bolshevik consolidated bank. This branch sent word to the embassy that the remittance was there. Senator Wolcott. You mean the bank sent word to the embassy? Mr. Simmons. Yes, Senator. The embassy clerk who attends to those matters went down to secure this money. After standing in line for maybe five or six hours he was told that the money was not there ; they could not locate it. I went down there the next day and stood in line for six hours. Because of the length of the line, I was never able to get into the bank. The following morning I put my secretary in line at 6.30, and the line then was a block and a half long — people wanting their own money. Finally we got into the bank that afternoon about 1 o'clock. I found that in that big institution, which previously must have had 100 or 150 clerks, two men were carrying on all the business, and one of those, the principal one, had taken to a little office divided off by partitions. It was necessary for every one to go within and talk to him privately. When I got an interview, finally, he said to me, " I am sorry to tell you that we can not find the record that we have received this money," and this notwithstanding the fact that their formal written notice was in my hand and before his eyes. This money was never gotten. Before leaving Petrograd we had to leave ■word if this remittance turned up to send it back to America. That was in the month of January. In the month of August the money was returned. This shows you the mixed-up situation of the bank. Many people were unable to draw their own money that was formally on deposit, or even small amounts of their deposits, to enable them to live. Maj. Humes. Would compensation to the man in charge of the bank affect the method of adjusting your balance ? Mr. Simmons. Well, I do not know about, the balance, but I can tell you that a great many men who wanted more money than the law allowed, which was 150 rubles per week, could get it if they made the compensation sufficient. Maj. Humes. If they paid the banker? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. If they were generous? Mr. Simmons. If they were generous. When I left Eussia the per cent that they were paying was from 15 to 20 of the amount drawn ; and more if a man, wanting to leave the country, desired to draw his entire deposit. Maj. Humes. That is, he had to give that amount to the banker? Mr. Simmons. Give that amount to the men that were at the head of the banks. Now. then, transportation in Eussia has gone down to about 20 per cent, if not lower, of normal efficiency. They have no way by which they can repair rolling stock. I wish I had brought with me 350 BOLSHEVIK PSOPAGAIfDA. pictures to illustrate this, showing 15 to 20 locomotives in one place, standing on sidings, absolutely cold, useless because they can not be repaired. This, of course, affected the food and raw-material distri- bution, as well as that of coal. Senator Nelson. Does that come from lack of material, lack of shops or facilities, or lack" of labor ? Mr. Simmons. I should say, first, lack of materials, then labor troubles, one or the other requiring the shutting down of shops; and closed shops forcing industrial workers, as the only alternative, into the red ai-my. The same condition exists with reference to steamboat transporta- tion. Russia has a wonderful system of river transportation. They have de-^eloped that to a remarkable extent, and you would be sur- prised how much territory one can cover by water. They connected, in a number of places, two distinct river systems by means of canals. Senator Nelson. They have joined the lower Don and the Volga, have they not, where they come close together? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir ; and by means of the canals and rivers, you may know, they can bring lumber, for instance, from Perm to Petro- grad. The steamboats and tugs that ply on those bodies of water have become much out of repair, and, in fact, many are out of com- mission because of want of materials to repair them, and, like the railroad situation, this has wrought a tremendous hardship upon the people. Senator Nelson. They had a scheme there for a canal connecting the waters of the Dvina, I mean the western Dvina • Mr. Simmons. The western Dvina; yes, sir. Senator Nelson. The one west of Petrograd, and the head waters of the Dnieper. Has that canal been built? Mr. Simmons. No, sir. It was started, but has never been com- pleted. Senator Nelson. That was to have connected the Baltic with the Black Sea? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir; and it' was to do away with the necess^ of exporting lumber material out through Germany, and by this canal to divert it to Russian ports. Maj. Humes. Are you familiar with the searching of trains at various points in Russia? Mr. Simmons. Searching trains ? You mean people, on trains? ' Maj. Humes. Do you know anything about the searching of people on the trains? Mr. Simmons. No, sir; I never saw that. I have heard of it. I am very glad you mentioned this, as I intended to state that all terrorism is organized. I do not know that I can say all is the result of organization, but many many of the things of .which I have told you have been perpetrated by the order of government authorities and by government forces. Senator Nelson. Have they an organized police and spy system there? Mr. Simmons. They have : yes, sir ; as I was informed, a very good spy system. I can not give you any specific instances of its opera- tions. The police system is not well organized. Almost every able- bodied man they can get hold of is conscripted for the Red Guards. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 351 Where enough Eed Guards are available they are used on police duty, but I do not think the Bolsheviki have any distinct police organization, as we understand the term police. In line with their policy of dispossession they have a systematic robbers' organization, and a number of Americans . lost money by pickpockets. I had an experience of that, for instance, when they released me from prison. When the Bolsheviks put me in prison they took my money, and when they let me out through the efforts of neutral con- suls general they returned my papers and money. As I walked away from the prison I went to a bank. I had given that money to my secretary, and I needed more money, inasmuch as I was going to Archangel. I came out of that bank with 14,000 rubles in my pocket, but'toned in the inside pocket of my coat. I never carried amounts of that kind, because it was dangerous, but in instances like this — going from the bank to the consulate — it was necessary. They had that 14,000 rubles before I could get home. Senator Overman. How did they get it? Mr. Simmons. I took a street car, crowded as all street cars are in Russia, because there are very few cars in operation, due to need of repair. I had an engagement for luncheon at the consulate. Before I had ridden very far I felt a tug at my coat. Looking around, there was a man, partly dressed in uniform, making his way out of the street car through this compact crowd. I followed, running after him over three blocks. He turned into a side street, went through a door, up a pair of steps, and through another door. I was afraid to enter here because of the danger that it would be locked behind me and I would again be imprisoned. Senator Nelson. That is where your rubles went? Mr. Simmons. That is where my rubles went; I am sorry to say this was Government money. Men like, for instance, the treasurer of the International Harvester Co., were robbed. He was robbed four times in succession at short intervals — a man who handles money like he does — and after each robbery he made special effort, he told me, to be more particular ; but the organization of pickpockets was too efficient. One man connected with the military mission lost money in the same way ; Y. M. C. A. officials likewise, and, if I am not mistaken, an officer of the Red Cross. It was very general, this pocket picking and robbing, and it was evident, as many of us agreed, that it was thoroughly organized and connived at by the Bolshevik government. Senator Nelson. Systematic propaganda of the Red Guard? Mr. Simmons. Of the Red Guard and others in sympathy with them. Now, as to the factories in the nationalization of industry. I speak of -this particularly because it was in connection with my offi- cial work in studying the lumber industry. The local soviet appoints a committee that looks after the national- ifsed industry, called a factory committee, and each industry has a manao-ing committee which administers that particular factory. The managing committee, with the consent of the factory committee, has the right to decide upon scale of wages, extent of the working day and all matters of that kind. Gentlemen, to make it short, out 352 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. of three industries that I watched very closely, lumber mills wideh" separated, every one closed down, failed, for capital was difficult to secure from the banks or elsewhere. The managing committee failed to make ends meet, because cost of production was too great and thev could not satisfy labor demands. The men did not seem to recognize the authority of the committee in charge. Men who, for instance floated logs up to the skidder in the millpond would demand the same wage as the skilled laborer who handled the saw. If it was not granted they said, " That man, the sawyer, is bourgeois." This class issue has run away with the Bolsheviks. They have instilled it so thoroughly into the minds of the common people that they find it hurled back at them in instances like that I have just related. Senator Nelson. In other words, they believe in the same level of wages for all hands ? Mr. Simmons. For all hands. Senator Nelson. Regardless of the character of the work per- formed ? Mr. Simmons. Yes ; but that is not the intention of the Bolsheviks. The Bolsheviks aim to classify industrial workers. But I say the men who are less fortunate in having the meanest work, on the idea that there is to be no class distinction, require that they be given the same wage as those above them. It ended in the mills stopping. And then workmen, not satisfied, because no means of - livelihood was in sight, in their desperation plundered the sawmills. I have seen mills dismantled. Brass cups, belting, and portable parts that could be taken were carried away and sold. The stocks of lumber in the yards, deals and planks, were also appropriated at will to be used for fire- wood and other private uses. Another very significant illusti'ation was that of the International Harvester Co.'s plant near Moscow. Laborers of this company were thoroughly satisfied. I was told by one of the managers of the In- ternational Harvester how the Bolshevist laborers of a competing factory making harvesting machinery or implements came over and tried to prevail upon the laborers of the International Harvester io take over this factory as the government had suggested. They re- plied that they would not, because they were getting along well and had every consideration that they could expect. Several different times, similarly approached, they refused. In the argument they were told, " We are getting at our nationalized plant 60 rubles a day. You, with the International Harvester, are only getting 35 rubles a day." It was not many weeks after that the competing concern had to close, and the laborers of the International Harvester, seeing a few of the workmen of the failed industry, said, " You were getting 60 rubles a day and we were only getting 35, but we to-day have work, and our 35 rubles, while you have neither yqur 60 rubles nor any wage because you have no work, your plant having failed." Industry generally is absolutely closed; absolutely closed! A very amusing incident in regard to this class issue, showing how it has run away, is in regard to the hospital in Moscow. The people who are doing the more lowly part of the work — orderlies, menial attendants in positions of that sorl^ — struck, demanding, " Unless you pay us as much as you pay the doctors and nurses we will not stay in our places " ; and, gentlemen, they accepted the terms ; they gave these people the same pay that they gave the doctors and the nursee. BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. 353 In an English factory, a textile mill, they had gotten along ex- cellently since the revolution, and their employees opposed having their institution taken over by the decree of nationalization. One day they had a meeting of employees to protest against the Bolsheviks trying to compel them to have this institution put in the hands of the workmen. While they were in that meeting the Red Guards came and dispersed it and killed two or three of the leaders, the prim* movers; and these were the employees, the workmen, of that insti- tution. Then they went after the manager and the assistant managers, whom they arrested. One of the assistants escaped, taking refuge in the American consulate, where he told his pitiful tale. He was aided to get out of the country before they could arrest him. Another particularly interesting point in regard to this industrial problem is that Germany, after the industries began to fail, started to buy some of them. They bought 13 sawmills, some of the best- equipped sawmills. I kept very close watch on this. I saw that if the Germans were going to take possession of the lumber industry, competition under their administration would be much more for- midable than it had been under the Russian. They negotiated for 13, and got them at a very low price as compared with prices before the revolution, but a high price at that time ; and I could not under- stand how they figured to operate these industries, and therefore, I could not see why they were paying those prices. Senator Nelson. After the Germans had bought those mills and factories that you refer to, did they attempt to operate them or did they leave them alone ? Mr. Simmons. Of course they were not running when they bought them. Many of them had been partially dismantled by machinery parts being plundered. They had no opportunity nor material to put them in shape for operation; but the fact that they purchased them indicated that they hoped to dominate the industry in Russia eventually. Senator Nelson, The Germans have a great economic hold on Eussia, have they not? Mr. &MM0NS. The Germans? Senator Nelson. Yes ; the Germans. Mr. Simmons. They did have. Senator, before the war. Senator Nelson. That is what I mean. Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir; they had before the war, and they were strengthening their hold under the Bolshevik regime up to the time of the end of the world's war. Senator Nelson. And the Bolsheviks are giving them a free hand, are they not ? Mr. Simmons. Commercially, yes, sir; they were. One other matter I want to bring in in regard to industry is that all unions do not support the Bolsheviks ; and that in organizations that do support them, a great many in the unions have bolted because they could not subscribe to the policies. Senator Nelson. They have labor unions over there as w» have here? Mr. Simmons. Yes. 85723—19 23 354 BOISHEVIK PROPAGANDA. iSenator Nelsox. And these unions are not affiliating with the Bol- sheviki ? Mr. SiMMOxs. A number are not, as I understand; and of those unions that have done so, the better elements have left them. Gen- erally, the unions would most likely have affiliated with the Bol- sheviks, but the substantial, better classes of workmen, many of them, on account of Bolshevism have left the unions. Senator Sterling. It is a fact that the unions, or many of them, have taken formal action identifying themselves with the Bolsheviki, and on account of such formal action, a number of the better ele- ments of the unions have deserted them ? Mr. SiJiMOxs. Yes. Senator Sterling. That is the situation? Mr. SiJiMONS. Yes. To show how the unions act when assistance comes to Eussia, after the occupation of Archangel, the North Rus- sian Union Labor Corporation, which is composed of 10,000 wood- choppers — 10,000 woodmen — ^you know what I mean by "wood- men " ; the men that cut the logs for all sawmills in that district. Senator Sterling. Lumbermen? Mr. Simmons. Lumbermen, generally, but we call them timbermen. Senator Sterling. Yes. Mr.. Si:mmons. The minute that occupation took place they came to offer their services to the allied troops, and they have rendered, I am told, most valuable service. Senator Sterling. That is up in the neighborhood of Archangel? Mr. SiJiMONS. The headquarters of this union is in Archangel, but the men who compose this union are spread throughout the governments. You understand I mean by governments provinces, as Archangel, Vologda, and Olonetz. Senator Sterling. They are lumbering in the valley of the Dvina? Mr. Simmons. A part in the valley of the Dvina and some in the Onega. Now, the most shameful thing, gentlemen, is the nationalization of women. I have two decrees, or translation of a decree, the first issued by the Bolsheviki of Vladimir, and published, in the official soviet organ. Izvestija. I read from it as follows: Every girl who has reached her eighteenth year is guaranteed by the Local Commissary of Surveillance the full inviolability of her person. Any offender against an eighteen-year-old girl by using insulting language or attempting to ravish her is subject to the full rigours of the Revolutionary Tribunal. Anyone who has ravished a girl who has not reached her eighteenth year is 'considered a State criminal and is liable to a sentence of 20 years' hard labour unless he marries the injured one. The injured, dishonoured girl is given the right not to marry the ravisher if she does not so desire. A girl having reached her eighteenth year is to be announced as the property of the State. Any girl having reached her eighteenth year and not having married is obliged, subject to the most severe penalty, to register at the Bureau of Free Love in the Commissariat of Surveillance. Senator Overman. Where is that commissary? ]Mr. Simmons. This comes from the Bolsheviki of Vladimir. [Con- tinuing reading :] Having registered at the Bureau of Free Love, she has the right to choose from among men between the ages of 19 and 50 a cohabitant-husband. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 355 Kemarks: (1) The consent of the man in the said choice is unnecessary; (2) the man on whom such a choice falls has no right to make any protest whatsoever against the infringement. Senator Sterling. One might think that free love is a misnomer, right there. Mr. Simmons (continuing reading) : The right to choose from a number of girls who have reached their eighteenth year is given also to men. The opportunity ta choose a husband or a wife is to be presented once a month. The Bureau of Love is autonomous. Men between the ages of 19 and 50 have the right to choose from among the registered women even \Aithout the consent of the latter, in the interests of the State. Children who are the issue of these unions are to become the property of the State. The decree states further that it has been based on the excellent " example " of similar decrees already issued at Luga, Kolpin, and other places in Eussia. Here is another one, on a rather larger scale, from Saratov, which is a rather large province, and one of the industrial cities along the Volga. [Eeading:] ANABCHIST PEOCIAMATION. This decree is posted in and about Saratov (about March l.oth, 1918). Some people with their daughters have been excited into leaving the city altho the power Is In the hands of the BolshevikI and it is very doubtful if the Anarchists can succeed in the enforcement of the proclamation. This decree is proclaimed by the free association of anarchist in tlie to\^'n of Saratov. In compliance with the decision of the Soviet of Peasant Soldiers and Workmen's Deputies of Kronstadt, the abolition of the private possession of women. Senator Sterling. They at least give themselves the right name, there. Mr. SiMatONS. What is that? Senator Steeling. In speaking of themselves as anarchists. Mr. Simmons. Yes; but do not miss this point, that this is posted by the soldiers' and worlanen's deputies of Kronstadt. That is, as you know, the cradle of this revolution. Senator Steeling. Yes. ' Mr. Simmons (continuing reading) : Social Inequalities and legitimate marriages having been a condition in the past which served as an instrument in the hands of the bourgeoisie, thanks to which all the best species of all the beautiful have been the property of the bourgeois, have prevented the proper continuation of the human race. Such ponderous arguments have induced the present organization to edict the present decree : 1. From March 1 the right to possess women having reached the ages ]7 to 32 Is abolished. 2. The age of women shall be determined by birtb certificates or passports or by testimony of witnesses, and, on failure to produce documents, their age shall be determined by the Black Committee, who shall judge them according to appearance. , . „ , ., ^ 3. This decree does not affect women having five children. 4. The former owners may retain the right of using their wife without their tnm. 356 ' BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 5. In case of resistniu-e of the Imsband he shall forfeit the right of the formpr paragraph. 6. All women according to this decree are exempterl from priviite ownersliin and are proclaimed the property of tlie whole nation. 7. The distribution and the management of the appropriated women in com- pliance with the decision of the above said organization are transferred to the Anarchist Saratov Club. In three days from the publication of thi.s decree all women given by it to the use of the nation are obliged to present themselves to the given address and give the required Information. 8. Before the Black Committee is formed for the realization of this decree, the citizens themselves will be charged with such control. Remark : Each citizen noticing a woman not submitting herself to the ad- dress under this decree is obliged to let it be known to the Anarchists' Club, giving the full address, full name, and father's name of the offending woman! 9. Male citizens have the right to use one woman not oftener than three times a week for three hours, observing the rules specified below. 10. Each man wishing to use a piece of public property should be a bearer of a certificate from the Factories ronimittee, Professional Union, or Work- man's Soldier's, and Peasant's Council, certifying that he belongs to the work- ing-family class. 11. Every working member is obliged to discount 2 per cent from his earn- ings to the fund of general public action. Remark : This committee in charge will put these discounting funds, with the specifications of the names and lists into the State banks and other insti- tutions handing down these funds to the popular generation. 12. ilale citizens not belonging to the working class, in order to have the right equally with the proletariat, are obliged to pay 100 rubles monthly into the public funds. 13. The local branch of the State bank is obliged to begin to reserve the payments to the National Generation Fund. 14. All women proclaimed by this decree to be the national property will receive from the funds an allowance of 238 rubles a month. That is $23.80, in other words, now. [Continuing reading:] 15. All women who become pregnant are released of the direct State duties for four months, up to three months before and one month after childbirth. 16. The children born are given to an institution for training after they are one month old, where they are trained and educated until they are 17 years of age at the cost of the public funds. 17. In case of a birth of twins, the mother is to receive a prize of 200 rubles. 18. All citizens, men and women, are obliged to watch carefully their health and to make each week an examination of the urine and blood. Remark : The examinations are made daily in the laboratories of the popular Generation Health. 19. Those who are guilty of sjireading venereal diseases will be held respon- sible and severely punished. 20. Women having lost their health may apply to the Soviet for pension. 21. The chief of Anarchists will be in charge of perfecting the temporary arrangements and technical measures concerning the realization of this decree. 22. All those refusing to recognize and support this decree will be proclaimed sabotage, enemies of the people and counter anarchists and will be held to the severest responsibilities. ( Signed ) Council of the City of Sabatov, Rtrssu. Senator Steeling. How large a city is Saratov, Mr. Simmons, if you know? Mr. SnxMONs. Over 100,000, sir. Gentlemen, it requires no comment that Bolshevik propaganda, which is going around in America trjdng to justify Bolshevism, can not possibly stand before public opinion of this country when facts are known. Senator Overman. Have you any information about their respect for religion and their belief about religion ? Mr. Simmons. Who, the Bolsheviki? > ■; Senator Overman. Yes. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 357 Mr. Simmons. I told you, sir, on Saturday how they opposed re- ligion and the church. Senator Overman. Yes. Mr. Simmons. Of course, you know they separated the church from the State, which, of course, I think was a very good move. In fact, I have met priests who do not really object to that. The Bolsheviki have got the church against them, and anybody, who has any moral instinct at all is' against them. I think one of the most significant bits of my testimony was that statement of Bonch Bruevitch in which, as I read to j'ou, he said that the Bolsheviki had no moral code — that they had not yet formed a moral code — and until they had formed a moral code, any means to the end was justifiable. Senator Overman. They have no respect for ^'irtuous women and none for religion? Mr. Simmons. None for religion. They could not have and be back of practices as you have heard given in testimony before you. And, gentlemen, furthermore, religion is in jeopardy — rthe Chris- tian religion, the Jewish religion, or any other kind of religion — by permitting this Bolshevik campaign to proceed. I say it does not matter, if Russians want the nationalization of land, all right. If they want the nationalization of industries, all right. If they want the soviet or any other socialistic form of government, all right. Leave all questions, according to the principle of self-determination, to the Russian people. But when they try to institute reforms by force, or a government that in its practices is absolutely in violation of the ordinary usages of right, of the law of morality and of all laws of God, I say that that is a menace to the peace of the world, and it should be put down. Senator Overman. They have this propaganda going on in this country. Do you think that is all over the world ? Do you think it is in France? Mr. Simmons. I can not say as to France, Senator. It is in the three Scandinavian countries, where I had almost positive proof of sums of money being sent to Denmark and Sweden. I knew the- man at the head of the Bolshevist bureau of publicity in Sweden. Senator Sterling. Mr. Simmons, concerning the atrocities of the Bolsheviki, you will remember that I asked you a while ago about whether you knew the fact that old men had been required to dig graves for their sons condemned to death. I would dike to call at- tention, Mr. Chairman, to an article that was the foundation of that report, 'an article by George Kennan in the Outlook of December 5, the article being entitled, "The Struggle of Russian Democracy with Bolshevist Tyranny." I just quote briefly. [Reading:] The uprisings in Yaroslavl and Murom were temporarily successful ; but in most places the half-armed people were mercilessly slaughtered with artillery and machine guns. This article by the way, is to refute the Col. Lebedeff pamphlets. [Continuing reading :] " In one instance," says Col. LebedefE, " in the village of Semenikha, the Rea Guards shot about a hundred young peasants and forced old men to dig graves for their sons killed in the presence of their families." Murom and Yaroslav were finally recaptured by the Bolsheviki, after artillery fire had reduced them to ruins and filled their streets with heaps of dead. 358 ■ BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Simmons. Oh, j'es; that fits in with all their practices, as you have heard. Xow, I think, after hearing of this nationalization of women, and having heard of all the atrocities, that the primary need in this country and in other countries is to let the people know the truth. The truth in itself will counteract the Bolshevist propaganda. I can not think of any single person, I do not care of what religion or political party he may be, that can uphold the immorality of tliis movement in Russia. Senator Oveiuiax. Your remedj- in this country is publicity. Mr. Simmons. Publicity. Senator "\^^olcott. A very excellent remedy would be for these pople who like it to be sent over there to live with it. Mr. Simmons. But they would not do that for a minute. Senator Overman. What do you think about stopping their litera- ture preaching this soviet and Bolshevik doctrine from being sent through the mails? Mr. SiMJioNS. I think when it reaches the point where it is sedi- tious it ought to be suppressed by all means. I am not in favor of going ahead and meting out drastic punishment to each man or woman who seems to have indorsed the theories of this idea, be- cause I think martyrs bring sympathy. Senator Overman. You think pains and penalties will do more harm than good? Mr. Simmons. I think what you want is to give the public the truth. I do not believe that any man, woman, or child that has been to these hearings and heard the facts as presented can possibly up- hold this movement. Senator Nelson. What do you think of a man like Williams, who has been over there and faced the facts, and then comes over here and pronounces a benediction on it ? Mr. Simmons. I think Mr. Williams came from Russia before the terrorism took place. A good many have become obsessed with the theories of the Bolshevilri, as I told you on Saturday, but the theo- ries and the doctrines are one thing and the practices another. I came through Archangel the last place. I left northern Rus- sia on the 3d of November. There was a socialistic form of gov- ernment in power. The allies were asked to come in to Murmansk last June, I think it was about that time, by the Murmansk soviets. and if you will let me I will make a part of the record of this in- vestigation pictures showing the president of the Murmansk soviet, Urieff, and his assistant, Capt. Vesalago, formerly a commander in the Czar's Navy. These were the Bolshevik representatives at the time that they invited the Americans and the English troops to come in.. I happened to be present at one of the meetings afterwards, and took the pictures myself. I am sorry that I have not got them with me, but if you will allow me to send them later and put them in I shall be glad to have you use these pictures in the record. When the occupation was made in Archangel it was made vir- tually without the firing of a gun. The revolution had taken place before the allied troops arrived. Tschaikovski was in the saddle even when the English arrived, and the Americans came shortly afterwards. Tschaikowski's government invited them, and the Kus- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 359 sians met them with open arms and with great rejoicing, ringing of church bells, blowing of f actor j- whistles, etc. After you come out of the middle of Russia, as I did, having seen the chaotic situation there, the awful distress of famine and economic disintegration, and then go up into Archangel and see how much happier and bet- ter off the people are, with food, with schools, churches unmolested, business recovering, a stable currency established and people able to sleep at night, not expecting to be disturbed with bayonets and machine guns, you see the difference at once. I have told you of that labor union that came at once and offered themselves and assisted the allies upon arrival, and when you read the records of the last few years in history, later on, you will see that some of the greatest deeds of bravery have been done by men in Northern Russia, of any place where there has been fight- ing participated in by Americans. Senator Nelson. It is a timbered and swampy country, is it not ? Mr. Simmons. Yes. And those men are fighting to protect that country from this very campaign of Bolshevism; that is, the ruth- less brigandage we have had outlined here to-day and Saturday. It is unquestionably a humane, justifiable fight, in my mind, quite as much justified as the fight against the militarism of Germany, and I tell you, gentlemen, that from the American soldiers in Archangel that I talked to I found they are imbued with this fact. I was sur- prised on my return home when I heard of the clamor that is being made for the withdrawal of our forces in northern Russia. Why, every inch that we have had to give to the enemy has resulted in the massacre of every man, woman, and child in the newly retaken dis- trict. If all soldiers would withdraw to-day, it would mean the greatest massacre in the Archangel government of any that has ever been known, and the blood would be on the hands of the United States and our allies. Senator Nelson. Our troops went in there in the first instance to take care of a large quantity of military supplies. Mr. Simmons. And to keep the Germans out; and to keep them from using it as a submarine base. Senator Nelson. And there. were a lot of military supplies there? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. And shipping? Mr. Simmons. A great deal of it had been taken away by the Bol- sheviki. A great deal of it had been sent south. We saw trainload after trainload of American automobiles and trucks and machinery and ammunition and every material possible being brought down to the center of Russia. Senator Nelson. Taken from there before the English and our troops came there ? Mr. Simmons. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. You are acquainted with the topography of the country. How far south of there did our troops advance? They went east of the railroad, as I gather, down to the valley of the Dvina River. t ^ Mr. Simmons. I can answer you very explicitly, but for military reasons I doubt if I should. But I want to say that those boys up there have done an excellent piece of work. iJGU • BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. And do you not think that what there are of Rus- sian people there are in sympathy with them and will cooperate wiUi them? Mr. Simmons. They have, certainly. They have organized quite large Russian army units, and the Russians are doing a large part of the fighting. That has been the American policy, as it appeared to me, in Russia where the allies have taken the field. They encourage organization of native troops of those wanting to fight Bolshevism, and help to equip, clothe, feed, and discipline them. Senator Nelson. Those people there, to a large extent, are kimber men who worked in the saw mills and in the woods ? Mr. Simmons. Yes. Senator Nelson. And fishermen? Mr. Simmons. Yes. Senator Nelson. It is not much of an agricultural country, is it? Mr. Simmons. Not at all. It is too far north. There is no tree growth around Archangel. You have to go almost 200 miles up the Dvina. Senator Nelson. It is not a farming country? Mr. Simmons. Not until you get in the neighborhood of Kotlas, a town on the Dvina River. Senator Overman. Our policy is to let the Russians do the fighting? Mr. Simmons. So it appears to me. We supply them with their needs and the assistance they want. Of course, it is very hard on American boys up there to exist and fight in that cold country. It is very cold. But they are well clothed and well fed, and when I left there, on the 3d of November, they were in very good spirits. I told the people in Michigan that very fact. And one man in the assembly, after he heard the narration of those facts that I gave in a simple story of Russia, said, " Gentlemen, I have been clamoring for the withdrawal of those troops. I have a brother there. But if he is fighting, and fighting against that kind of a movement, I want him to stay." Senator Steeling. How many American troops are at Archangel? Senator Nelson. I do not think it would be wise to publish that. i\Ir. SiMiioNS. If you do not mind, I would rather not say, for military reasons. I should be very glad to tell you in an executive session anj- thing you want that I can tell you. Senator Steeling. I thought it had been mentioned by somebody on the floor of the Senate, or I would not have asked it. Senator Overman. You think it would be a great mistake to take them out of there now ? Mr. Simmons. You could not take them out. Senator ; impossible. Senator Oveeman. You mean that we could not take them out ou account of physical conditions? Mr. Simmons. You mean the ice ? They have ice breakers. They possibly could get out with the use of ice breakers. Senator Nelson. We do not want to go into that except in execu- tive session. Mr. Simmons. No; I meant on account of the massacres which would happen if the allied troops withdrew. Senator Nelson. You can get out and get in? Mr. SiiMiioKs. I did not mean that, and I do not thinlt the Senator did. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 361 Senator Overman. To withdraw would leave those people to be massacred ? Mr. Simmons. Yes. Those boys have been there a long time and have done their part. Others could be substituted, and it would be all right. But, surely, we can not leave all these Russian people to starve. and to be massacred, as they will be; because we have found it so every place that the enemy have compelled us, or for reasons of strategy we have been compelled, to fall back. In those few instances the Bolshevik troops have massacred the people in the reoccupied territories. People of the Archangel country generally, of all classes — and they are of all classes, as you may assume, in a sawmill industrial center — are quite well satisfied with the protection of the allies, and are praying that we may never move so long as Bolshe- vism lasts. Senator Sterling. What can you say. Mr. Simmons, about the cooperation between the allied forces there? Mr. Simmons. I am very glad you mentioned that, sir. Thank you. I would say, first, that it is impossible to cooperate. You mean in Archangel ? Senator Steeling. Yes; cooperation between the allied forces there. Mr. Simmons. Oh, cooperation there? Senator Sterling. Yes ; between the allied forces. Mr. Simmons. "Will you please state your question again? Senator Sterling. What can you say about the cooperation be- tween the allied forces in Archangel and vicinity, as to whether there is cooperation between them or not? Mr. Simmons. There is cooperation; yes, sir; but I do not think we had better go into that. Senator Nelson. Are there any French there? Mr. Simmons. Yes, .sir. In answer to Senator Sterling I began to speak about cooperation of America with the Bolsheviki, coopera*- tion of the American Red Cross and the American Y. M. 0. A., two institutions that did excellent work. You have heard how these or- ganizations remained to the last and worked with returned Russian prisoners from Germany, and with civil relief. They helped to dis- tribute medical supplies and food. They did excellent work. Maj; Allen Wardwell led that work, with the support of able assistants, and I saw their operations while in the prisons where I was detained. I heard what prisoners had to say favorably about the American Red Cross. They did excellent work, gentlemen, in the same line. I do . not believe that any American Y. M. C. A. institution ever did bet- ter work than the Y. M. C. A. in Russia. The very presence of men of that character and caliber was a great thing in itself for Russia at that time, and the people generally were very f avorably_ disposed toward them. But we could not continue cooperation with them, finally. All cooperation became impossible, and both of these in- stitutions—the Red Cross and the Y. M. C. A.— had to leave Russia. The Y. M. C. A. had to guard their headquarters with guns. _ Think of organizations that were doing as good work as these, in the interest of the people, being forced by intolerable conditions to quit their humanitarian efforts and leave the country. Now, gentleman, talking about cooperation, the neutral countries not in the world's war, that had diplomatic officers in Russia, could 362 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. not remain and in line of their duty cooperate. They would not, of course, recognize the Bolsheviki. But for the Eussian people they could not do anything ; and it became impossible for them to live in Russia. I talked with the Swedish consul general, the man who got me out of prison in December, who afterward returned to Stockholm and also with the Danish minister, and they said that when they left Eussia life was absolutely impossible there, and that they had to leave their posts. Now, if organizations like the Eed Cross and the Y. M. C. A. and the diplomatic corps of the neutral countries can not get along in Eussia with the Bolshevists in power, cooperation to my mind seems impossible. Senator Overman. No neutral countries are represented there? Mr. Simmons. No neutral coimtry is represented. Senator Nelson. The last legation that went out of there was the Norwegian legation. Mr. Simmons. I think the Danish was the last. Senator Nelson. No. They helped to get out Mr. Leonard. Mr. Simmons. That is right. Senator Overman. Are there any German representatives there? Mr. Simmons. No ; they have not been there, I think, since Mirbach was killed. They removed the embassy across the line into Poland where they could stay in safety and run into and out of Russia as duty required. But whether they still remain, I do not know. Seantor Nelson. Are there many German officers in the Bolshevik army ? Mr. Simmons. There were some when we left ; but, of course, peace had not then been declared. There may be more now, if I should make a guess. If there are any questions that I can answer I shall be very glad to do it. Senator Overman. I think you have done the country a very great service and we are very much obliged to you. Senator Nelson. I would just like to have a few words with him in secret session here. Mr. Simmons. I will be at your disposal. Senator Overman. We are going into executive session to hear another witness now. (Thereupon, at 4.45 p. m., the subcommittee went into executive session. The following testimony was taken, the name of the witness being withheld at his urgent request.) EXECUTIVE SESSION. TESTIMONY OF MR. . (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) Senator Wolcott. Is your home in New York City? Mr. . My home is in New York. Senator 0^'ER]^tAN. When did you leave Russia? Mr. . I left Eussia on the 2&th day of last February, the day after the embassies left. I was not in Eussia during the revolution which led up to the abdication of the embassy. I had returned to BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 363 this country, and was on my way back to Russia when that occurred. I returned by the Siberian line and arrixed in Petrograd in the first week in May, 1917, so I lived in Eussia Iroui May, 1917, until the end of February, 1918. Therefore I have no particular evidence that is worth while, or any testimony that is worth while, after 1918, except that I have been a careful reader of the newspapers. But I have nothing from observation. Therefore my testimony will be very simple. I was quite intimately connected with Mr. Francis, and saw a good deal of the workings of the Kerensky government in consequence of it. My own business was gradually going to pieces during that sum- mer. 1 returned to find that my whole office force of about 50 clerks was on strike, and they laid down to me conditions which made it impossible to work with them, notwithstanding I tried very hard to compromise. This was before the Bolsheviki came in, but it was the outcome of the revolution and the labor excitement at that time. In spite of all I could do in the way of reasoning with them I was obliged in September to dismiss the whole force and move my whole office, which was at Petrograd, to Moscow, where conditions were considerably quieter. There was not the same revolutionary spirit at that time in Moscow that there was in Petrograd. Senator Nelson. Let me see if I get my bearings correct. You came there in May ? Mr. . Yes. Senator Nelson. That was a month or two after the Kerensky revolution, and the Trotsky-Lenine revolution occurred in Novem- ber? Mr. . The 7th of November, yes. Senator Nelson. Now, go on. Senator Steeling. Was there not an interval before Kerensky came into power, after the March revolution ? How long a time in- tervened there? Mr. — . Kerensky, you will remember, was minister of justice in the first cabinet. Kerensky came into power as premier and minister of war about the 15th of May. Senator Steeling. Did you meet Col. Lebedeff while you were there? Mr. . I met him several times in Petrograd. Senator Steeling. How are you impressed with him ? Mr. . He is an extremely live fellow, very well acquainted, and a very intelligent man. Senator Steeling. He tried to organize a force, did he not ? Mr. . He organized an army and would have accomplished things with that army. If he had had a little more support after the capture of Kazan he would have been able to reach Moscow. Have you read his book? Senator Nelson. If our Archangel forces could have gotten down there at that time and given them a little help they would have ex- - tinguished the Bolshevik government. He makes that plain in his Mr. - — . That seems to have been the original plan, to establish a force at Archangel to connect up with the force at Omsk by way of Perm. 364 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. Will you please tell us what they had done with the banks when you were there ? Mr. . The banks had been entirely nationalized before I left. I lived through that and all the inconvenience of it. Of course I was very intimately acquainted with the various banks there, and I need only say, in view of what I have heard said here — ^I do not have to repeat — ^that this sudden action was taken by the Bolshevik government because they were suspicious of the activities of these banks. They were under the impression, they claimed, that a number of these banks were financing Korniloff, Kaladines, and their forces in the southern part of Russia, and in order to cut off that financial support which they thought was going south, they took all of a sud- den, much sooner than thej' expected to do, all the banks in charge. Senator Nelson. The gold reserves of the coimtry were kept in the imperial state bank, were they not ? Mr. . They had always been kept there ; and, as I said, they were all removed in the first fifteen days of the war in 1914, to the various branches of the state bank on the Volga, and that was how it happened that Lebedeff was able to get so much money in Kazan. I think that is probably a true statement. The banks were taken over, and chaos reigned there for about 10 or 15 days, and then they worked out an organization of this sort. All the private banks were put into categories of the state bank, first, second, and third catego- ries, and you could draw money from these banks only to be used in payment for labor. Private citizens having credit there could draw 150 rubles per week, when I left. In order to get that 150 rubles per week it would take you three clays of that week to get the necessary vises and permissions in the various parts of the town. I was not put to that inconvenience because at the same time I had a large account in the National City Bank, and special arrangements were made bj' the Bolshevik government which enabled Americans to draw up to 500 rubles at one time from their account in the National City Bank, and as I had a large balance there, I simply had to send the boy down every noon and get 500 rubles and hold a reserve in ray office, as I was afraid we might get short of money, and I left a great many signed checks when T left, to enable them to go on and draw in that way ; but the bank closed about a week after I left. Senator Steeling. In what form was the ruble with which you were paid. Was it in specie or pppcr? ^Ir. . There was no specie after the outbreak of the war, and they were using the Kerensky money ; that is, the dies which were adopted during the Kerensky regime. The denominations were 1,000- ruble bills, 250-ruble bills, and 40 and 20 ruble bills. These 40-ruble pieces and 20-ruble pieces were about the size of four post- age stamps, made out of the margins of the paper that was formerly thrown away in making the imperial money. Senator Sterling. What was the value of the ruble at that time? Mr. . The value of the ruble when I left varied anywhere from 10 cents to the ruble. I would say that the ruble had from 8 to 10 cents purchasing power, instead of 50 cents. Senator Steeling. Then the nominal value is 50 cents? Mr. . Fifty cents. This money was taken with great re- luctance when I left, a year ago. Mr. Simmons, of course, knows that BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 365 there was much more opposition later on, but this money was taken with great reluctance, especially these little 40-i-uble and 20-ruble pieces. They continued to print the 1-ruble, 3-ruble, and 5-ruble pieces from the old imperial dies. The 10-ruble note and the 100- ruble note of the imperial dies were at a premium, and it was getting more and more difficult to get hold of those pieces of money. They were at a premium because evidently Germany was buying them up, and I think a little experience of mine will show you Germany's activity right there. When I left the country, you were allowed at that time to take out 500 rubles per person. Senator Steeling. That is, the Americans were ? Mr. . The Americans were. Now, to take out 500 rubles per person, you were supposed to be examined at the frontier. I had my 500 rubles of this money ; none of this Kerensky money, but of the old imperial dies of the smaller denominations, 10-ruble pieces and 25-ruble pieces, and to make doubly sure I took the chance of put- ting under my arm 10,000 rubles of the 500-ruble pieces. Senator Wolcott. Of the Kerensky money ? Mr. . No; the imperial, with the face of Peter the Great watermarked in it — a very beautiful bill — and I got through without being searched, and I got that money landed in Stockholm. I was allowed to take, as I said, 500 rubles. I had with me my wife and sister, which allowed me to take 1,500 rubles altogether. When I ar- rived in Finland the ruble was worth less than the Finnish mark. The Finnish mark was worth ll cents. I had an indefinite stay in Finland before me, and it was costing me 100 marks per day per per- son, so you can see how far 6,500 rubles would go. Fortunately, I met an American there who wanted to get his money out of the country, or I should have had a hard time. As a matter of fact I stayed in Finland 25 days, negotiating with the authorities, before we got through, and it cost me 5,000 marks. When I got to Stockholm with that money I wanted to realize on it, and there was pointed out to me a little money dealer who was buying this money, and I went in with my 500-ruble bills and I realized 26 cents per ruble on them. That aroused my curiosity and I said, "Why such a price for this money here? " Strange to say, I realized 26 cents per ruble for the good bills, but a bill which was slightly worn or a trifle torn I could only get aibout 23 cents for, per ruble. " Well," they said, " there is a great demand from Germany for this money to put into use in the occupied territories in Eussia. The Germans have not been able to get the mark accepted there, and the old imperial ruble is the only money they can use, and therefore thev are paying that price for tliis money." You can see that in that way I benefited innocently from this German manipulation with the Eussian money. The banks, as I say, were all organized in this way. This is merely a little incident that, perhaps, will show you the kind of man- agers they are. They took the great bank of the Volga, where I-had a very large balence and where I had my safe deposit box for the company and myself. That Volga Bank bore to Eussia about the same relation that the City National bore to the United States. They put in charge of that bank a fellow who kept the back court of 366 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. the bank clean. He was a man that I had met when I went in there. I could do nothing at that bank except to talk about the condition of my safe deposit. There was no question of drawing any money there. I had lost all control of the account, and there was nobody who could give me any information about the account. My safe deposit was there. Shortly after assuming control of the banks there was a decree put out that all the holders of these safe deposits must appear and open them and let the contents be examined, and that all specie would be confiscated, and all jiaper money would be taken and put into the state bank to your credit. I put off this examination as long as I could, until there came out a decree that those whose boxes which were not opened by such a date would be forced open — blown open — so I took the American consul, who was then Mr. Treadwell, who is now in prison down in Tashkend, over there to make a formal protest, and see what would happen, and we met this almost illiterate commisar. who was in charge of the bank, and Mr. Treadwell protested in the name of his office and the I'^nited States that they had no right to interfere with the prop- erty of an American citizen or an American firm. This commisar said that he was not taking his instructions from the consul of the United States, and that the instructions he had he would have to carry out. He opened the box and he took hold of the money. An- other protest was made then by our consul against the taking of the property of a foreign citizen. The same answer. The result was that this money which I liad tliere was taken. I had always carried quite a good deal of cash in my safe deposit as an emergency fund, not knowing what might happen at any time, and there happened to be .57,000 rubles there at that time, which was counted out in spite of the protest of the consul and my own protest, and a young student who was there, who was able to write, wrote out a receipt saying that this was in the state bank. T have never heard anything about those 57,000 rubles since then. Senator Nelson. Was it paper? Mr. . It was paper money. I had no specie there. My own personal effects, which wei-e Russian silver, etc., were at that time not disturbed. I do not know what their condition is now. All my personal effects are in Russia still. That shows you the high- handed way in which they treated the property of other people, especially Americans. Senator Nelson. You have never heard what became of them, since ? Mr. . No; that is the last I heard of what became of the 57,000 rubles. That was in the city of Petrograd, in connection with one of the largest private banks of Russia. Senator Steeling. Did they have any force there to do the busi- ness of the bank at that time ? Mr. . No. Senator Nelson. Were they doing any banking business ? Mr. . No ; they were not doing any banking business. There were only three or four there — ^that is, the commissar and his assistant and a boy or two — and 30 or 40 soldiers standing around all the time with their bayonets fixed, to take care of any disturbance that might arise among the people wno came there to have their business done. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 367 Senator Nelson. The soldiers were supposed to do the banking business ? Mr. . The soldiers were supposed to do the banking busi- ness. From the time that they closed the Russian banlts I could do no business with them, and I simplj^ relied upon the account I had in the National City Bank, where I could draw up to 500 rubles at a time. Strange to say, our business went on and has been going on since then, so far as it has been possible. I have the conviction that all this Bolshevik money will be re- pudiated as soon as there is a responsible government in Russia. This money is printed, and has been printed, as I understand, for the last year without date and without number, and without signature also, using those dies, and that makes it pretty bad ; so I never expect a responsible government, if there ever is one in Russia, to redeem that money. Senator Nelson. I understand a great deal of it has been printed at Leipzig, Germany? Mr. . That money, I think, was printed from the old im- perial dies, and while I do not know anything about it, I understand that a great deal of the money has been printed in Germany from the old dies. There were times when Russia could not get that money printed, and those dies were kept in Germany when the war broke out. With reference to the political phases I have not very much to say, except one fact that I have not heard brought out. When the Bol- sheviki took control of Petrograd in November, 1917, for sometime thereafter it was quite impossible to get a call on the telephone unlesp you spoke German. That was a pretty good evidence of German inr fluence in the town at the time. Senator Nelson. Were there many Germans in the town at that time? Mr. . There were a good many Germans, ever since the war started, who had the run of the place. T never was in a position, and I do not think anybody was in a position, to say that the Germans were there officially. This I do know, and this fact, I think, is signifi- cant, that when the Brest-Litovsk treaty was in process of negotiation there came to Petrograd 160 — so the papers said — German commercial agents, and the hotel was cleared out, the Russian occupants of this hotel were ejected, and these 160 Germans lived at that hotel, and a gala performance was_ given them in the Imperial Opera House. Those men stayed for atout 15 or 20 days, and as the negotiations pro- ceeded and were not altogether agreeable, these men found that their life in Petrograd was not altogether agreeable and, perhaps, not safe, and so they rather disappeared; but before these particular agents had left town, they declared that while they had read in books about anarchy and disorder, they never knew what those terms meant until they had seen them in operation in Petrograd. We were shot up practically every night by Red Guards really trying to keep order. The soldiers had broken loose and begun a systematic looting of the wine shops and the drinking up of the liquors, and it took them 20 or 21 days, and each night there was a collision between the irresponsible soldiers who were doing this looting, and the Red Guards, who went out to make a pretense of keeping order. Senator Nelson. There were two elements, then ; there were thesf looters this rabble, and then there were the Red Guards ? 368 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. . The Red Guards. I have a little higher opinion of the Red Guards than some people who have spoken about them. They were, up to the time I left, a rather serious organization. They were made up largely from inexperienced young fellows from the factories who had never had any military experience, and they were turned loose in the town with a rifle on their shoulders, and they tried to keep order. When the Bolshevik overthrow took place, on the 7th of November, the three preceding weeks before that, there had been dis- orders in Petrograd reported in the newspapers. I do not know how many there were, but I counted in the newspapers 450 cases of robbery, attempts on life, murders, etc. Senator Nelson. In the Russian newspapers? Mr. . In the Russian newspapers, in the three or four weeks preceding the Bolshevik revolution. That was under the Kerensky regime; showing how thoroughly demoralized the town had become under the Kerensky government. . Now, immediately after the Bolsheviks got control, we looked for a general massacre and throat-cutting, etc., but nothing of the sort happened. We had vastly better order in the town for the next three weeks than we had had for the preceding two months. While they were under the glow of success, and so on, that continued, but at the same time there were upward of 400,000 soldiers and sailors in Petro- grad, and they were quite beyond control, and these small Red Guards .were quite unable to keep order, and gradually we drifted into chaos. Before the 1st of January we had gotten into chaos again worse than before the Bolshevik revolution, which continued up until the time I left. I left Petrograd not necessarily because the town was so uncom- fortable to live in, but it was because the Germans, after the failury of the Brest-Litovsk treaty — the first one — were advancing and were within three or four hours of the town. That was the time when the embassies all left, and I left the next day to go to Finland. I arrived in Finland, and we found civil war in progress there, and conditions vastly worse, and in the beautiful town of Helsingfors the conditions were worse than they were in Petrograd. The reds were hunting out the whites, and there was a man hunt going on, with ;i great many encounters in different parts of the town, and shooting going on constantly. Our party, of which Mr. Simmons was one, all had diplomatic passports, and therefore we were in a position to get some consideration from the red authorities. Senator Nelson. They were in control at that time ? Mr. . They were in control of southern Finland. There was a battle line thrown across the whole country from east to west. Senator Nelson. The whites were in the northern country? Mr. . Yes, and the reds were in the south. The whites had control of the largest amount of territory, but the reds had the busi- ness end of it and the big estates. When I came in contact with the authorities and was engaged along the line of trying to get a passport to get through, I went to the chief of staff of the Red army and I came up against a fine young man about 36 years old, who spoke English perfectly, and whose name was August Wesley. That was the way it was spelled in English. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 369 Senator Nelson. He was Swedish, then? Mr. -. No, it is a good Finnish name, Oesslei, which comes out Wesley, if you pronounce it fast. Mr. Wesley had been 12 years in Seattle as an organizer in the I. W. W. He showed me every courtesy in the world, and endeavored to make arrangements at the next town farther west for getting through there. He called up police headquarters jxnd there found out that there were horses to be gotten, and a conveyance by way of the Aland Islands to Stocldiolm. I went back to my family and made all arrangements, and then as I got about ready to start, I was called up and told that the Ges-- mans were at the Aland Islands, and I had better not undertake tliat trip. I telegraphed to my friend at the north, and the man who re- ceived my telegram said that I was overcautious, and that he would undertake it ; and he did undertake it, and was captured by the (Tcr- mans and kept eight months in Germany. Senator Nelson. He tried to get away by way of the Aland Is- lands? Mr. . Yes, sir ; but I went back and began negotiations with the Minister of War, a gentleman whose name was Sirola; and thi ; Mr. Sirola had been formerly in Illinois as an organizer of strikes among the coal miners. Senator Wolcott. Did you find the real names of these people? Were those their real names ? Mr. . Those are their real names, and they are real fellows. They showed me no discourtesy. They tried to discuss these things, but I refused to discuss them at all. I simply said to them, " Gentle- men, you do not want us here eating your food, and perhaps if you will let us out, we will be able to get some food for you." Senator Wolcott. They both talked English? Mr. . Very well, and as the food situation there was catastro- phic at the time, it was perhaps due to their idea that we could prob- ably send them food that they were so considerate. Wesley, as I said, offered me all facilities for getting horses to go on the ice to tlie Aland Islands. Sirola put at my disposal two cars to go to the north- western part of the red line, and he allowed us to hold those cars for fully two weeks. Another very interesting man in this Government of the Reds was a man named Tokol, and I speak of him merely to show what hap- pened subsequently. When the Whites got control and beat back the Eeds they drove out these leaders from Finland, and there was a oreat massacre, of course, in connection with that victory. Then our friends Wesley, Sirola, and Tokol were driven down into Rus^,'" where they had a chance to see Bolshevism in full operation, and after wandering about there for four months, they became convinced that it was not a working program. They drifted then up to Arch- ano-el and joined forces with our people in Archangel, where Tukoi, the spokesman and most intelligent of the three — I will not say that either of those other two was not intelligent— writes a very strong letter a wonderful letter, to Mr. Nuorteva, the Finnish Red pub- licity 'man in this country — and by some chance that letter got pub- lished in the New York Evening Post — wherein he showed that the Bolshevist program under no conditions can work ; that in Russia it S5723— 19 24 370 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. attracts to itself onlj' the people who have nothing and the criminal element, and that the only way to work out a socialistic program is through democratic channels, and asking him to please use his influ- ence in America to stop this "whole movement. He was the prime minister of Eed Finland, writing to his friend in this country. Maj. Humes. Have you that letter in your possession? Mr. . I have not that in my possession. That letter was pub- lished in the New Yorli Evening Post of October 22. Maj. Humes. That would be interesting in connection with this testimony. Senator Nelson. How did the writer of this letter spell his name? Mr. . Tokol. Senator Nelson. That is a Finnish name. Mr. . It is a Finnish name. Senator Wolcott. He is right here in Washington and has been at- tending our hearings. Senator Overman. Did he speak English? Mr. . I did not meet him. I met only the two, the foreign minister and the chief of staff. Senator Nelson. How do you spell the foreign minister's name? Mr. . Sirola. Senator Nelson. That may be either Polish or Finnish. Mr. . Sirola, it was pronounced. Maj. Humes. What do you know about the activities of Col. Thompson and Raymond Robins, and the distribution of funds by them? Mr. . I was very intimately connected with those gentlemen for some time. I supposed you might ask me this question. As I told you at the beginning, I was appointed by the allied governments in charge of publicity work in Russia. My appointment was con- firmed by the President, but the President, when he confirmed it, said to make no expenditures without special authorization from him. We never got this authorization, and no money ever came to us until ]Mr. Thompson arrived. The Ajnbassador, of course, was trying to get these funds. He thoroughly realized how important it was to get the press in order in Russia, but succeeded in getting no money. When this matter was presented to Col. Thompson he became very much interested, and began to use his influence at Washington, through the Red Cross, to get f imds. Senator Wolcott. When did Col. Thompson arrive; as of what date; about when? Mr. . I am speaking of the month of August, 1917. He arrived right after the Root commission, about the time that the Root commission left. Col. Thompson became very much interested, and saw how vital this was, the question of straightening out the Russian mind, and he laid out a program with me to spend $3,000,000 per month for eight months, and we wanted a guarantee of three millions per month for eight months. Maj. Humes. Do you mean dollars or rubles? iSiv. . Dollars. We meant to corner the paper market in Russia and choke off the Bolshevik press. A great many j)apers were published at the front that we wanted to suppress, to give us a chance to establish a good many papers among the soldiers, and BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 371 put on their feet a number of struggling papers that were sound in doctrine. This work we proposed to do through a committee known as the Breshkovskaya committee. Madame Breshkovskaya was at the head of it, and there was working with us Tchaikovski and other persons of considerable standing. When Col. Thompson did not succeed in getting any ihoney, he ordered a million dollars of his own money from Washington sent over. That money, I think, all went through my hands, and I know it was spent in support of the Kerensky Government through this Breshkovskaya committee, and the person in charge of that Breshkovskaya committee, the lead- ing person, was Tchaikovski for some time, in addition to the repre- sentatives of the northern government. When that was spent, we put about 17 papers on their feet and had a very good press there in Petrograd, but we did not have very much influence with the press at the front, which was the most vital point. No money came from America, and, of course a million dollars does not go very far in supporting 17 newspapers. I do not think that any more money of Col. Thompson's was spent in that way. I have no reason to believe that he spent any money in support of the Bolsheviki. My recollection is that Col. Thompson, at the time the Bolsheviki overthrew the Kerensky Government, had no interest in them; but he and Col. Eobins seemed to think, " Here is the only Govern- ment that is left. For two or three weeks they have kept law and order, and we have got to work with somebody, and we had better work with them." Maj. Humes. The statement is made by Williams that Col. Thomp- son contributed $1,000,000 to the Bolsheviki. Mr. . I would like to hear him make that statement under oath. I have no reason to believe that Col. Thompson ever spent any money in support of the Bolsheviki. Senator Wolcott. Do you know anything about whether he did or not? Have you any facts upon which to base a reasonably re- liable opinion? Mr. . I do not think he did, because unless he had some special channels for getting money over there, he could not have gotten it over there. My money was marooned. I had $5,000 due me on the 7th of November. I have never seen that $5,000. Senator Steeling. Was Col. Thompson there when you came away? Mr. . No; Col. Thompson left about three weeks after the Bolshevik overthrow of the Government. Col. Thompson was — — Senator Overman. What was he doing there? Mr. . After the departure of Dr. Billings, who was in charge of the Red Cross there, he was put in charge as lieutenant colonel. Senator Wolcott. When did Mr. Eobins leave? Mr. . Well, Col. Thompson left, and he turned the Red Cross over to Col. Eobins. Col. Eobins I do not think left until June of 1918. He was there when I left, but not in Petrograd. He was in Moscow when we left. Senator Sterling. Do you know what his relations were with the Bolshevik Government ? 372 BOLSHEVIET I'KUi'AUAJN LIA. Mr. . I think I do. It is all a question of motive. I do not feel myself qualified to speak about his motives. I think Col. Rob- ins's idea was, " Here is the only organization, the only thing that has governmental po^ye^, in Eussia. Let us do what we can to get some- thing done with them." I do know that he saw a great deal of the officials at the head of the Bolshevik Government, like Lenine and Trotsky and Tchitcherin. Senator Sterling. Did you come in contact with Trotsky and Lenine ? Mr. . Xeither one of those at all, except to hear those gentle- men speak when they had the platform, several months before the overthrow. Trotslvy was a man who was holding meetings nightly in a big auditorium near my house, and very frequently, after the over- throw of the Government by the Bolsheviki when they felt their power wavering, he was always suggesting the propriety of setting up the guillotine in the Palace Square. Three times I remember his doing that ; a piece of work which I never could comprehend, coming from an intelligent man addressed to the people of Russia, whom he must have loiown as I knew them. Senator Nelson. You used a phrase there which should be correct- ed in the notes. You spoke once of the Bolshevik overthrow. It should be the Kerensky overthrow. Mr. — . The Kerensky overthrow ; yes. Senator Nelson. By the Bolsheviki. Mr. . Yes; by the Bolsheviki. Senator Nelson. That is the way it should be put. Maj. Humes. Do you know whether the Committee on Public In- formation spent any money 'I Mr. . Yes ; Mr. Sisson had the first money to spend on pub- licity and information that the Government spent over there. I did not work with Mr. Sisson. I had had a bit of experience in trying to get something oA-er, a month previous to that, and I had lost all interest in it. Mr. Sisson went to work by himself and got a great deal of matter published, like the President speeches and other mat- ter, and published daily bulletins, and, so far as it was possible to get them in, daily bulletins were published and transmitted to the daily press. My. Sisson, however, found himself soon in opposition to Raymond Robins and those people and worked by himself and acquired through mysterious channels those documents which I l.iy chance read in the original on the 4th day of March. When I read those documents there Avas not the first shadow of doubt in my mind that they were original. Senator Nelson. How? Mr. . I was sure that thej' were all genuine. Senator Nelson. Your impression was that they were all genuine? Mr. . Yes; that was my impression. I am familiar with the ordinary Russian official documents, as I had been mixed up with them for IS years previous, and I saw no reason to doubt the genuine- ness of these documents. Senator Nelson. What were they ? Mr. . They were documents that had passed between differ- ent departments of the Bolshevik Government, especially concerned with orders given and taken by the Germans to the Bolsheviki. I am BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 373 speaking this strictly in confidence. Some of them concerned put- ting our American Embassy under watch by the Germans. I had seen enojigh of Germans about there to know what they were to con- trol, and directly opposite our embassy there was a window where a German sat all the time, to see who entered the embassy and who went out. All these documents concerned German activities and Ger- man Bolshevik operations. Senator Nelson. There was cooperation between the Germans and the Bolshevik men, the leaders ? Mr. . Yes. Senator Nelson. What was Mr. Sisson doing, gathering up those documents ? Mr. . He saw the importance of getting that information out of Eussia, and it was a very delicate piece of work, getting those documents out, because if he had been caught with those documents on him, he would never have gotten out of Russia ; but he got them out, and I have no doubt of their genuineness, as I was able to read all of them in Eussia, originally. Senator Nelson. Then the documents that he got out were genuine? Mr. . I regard it as one of the most remarkable pieces of work that has been done in our Secret Service. Senator Nelson. Did he bring out the originals or copies? Mr. . He brought out a great many originals, I would not attempt to say how many. Maj. Humes. There were 53 originals. Mr. . I will tell you, I think some of them Avere photographs. We have either the originals or photographs of the originals, so that in reading them you have no doubt, when you read a photograph of an original. Senator Nelson. And they show conclusively the cooperation be- tween the Germans and the Bolshevik government? Mr. . Yes, sir. Senator Overman. Did you know a man by the name of Martens? Capt. Lester. Eichard Martens? Mr. . Who is at the head of Martens & Co. in New York? Capt. Lester. Yes. Mr. . I knew him. I never knew him in this country ; only in Eussia. I would like to say, for Mr. Martens, that I have seen his work, and I would like to say that I think he has got the most re- markable and useful data relating to economic Eussia that exist — maps, and so forth. Senator Overman. He has been over there, has he? Mr. . Yes; he knows his Eussia, and I think he is Eussian by birth. Senator Wolcott. Do you know whether Col. Thompson saw these documents prior to leaving Eussia ? Mr. . I do not know. I have no reason to believe that he ever did. Senator Nelson. Did he appear to be in conflict with the Bolshevik Government ? Mr. • He was very opposed to the Bolshevik government up to the time of the Kerensky overthrow. 374 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Xelson. Yes; but I mean after that? Mr. . He was the scaredest man, for a week, that I ever saw. Senator Xelson. I did not catch that. Mr. . I say for a \yeek after the Bolshevik overthrow of the Kerenslry government, he was the scaredest man I ever saw. Senator Nelson. You mean after the Bolshevik capture of the government ? Mr. . Yes. Senator Steeling. And the overthrow of the Kerensky govern- ment ? Mr. . Yes, after the overthrow of the Kerensky govern- ment. Xo, I am sure he was tremendously depressed by that, be- cause he really hoped to be able to do something to bolster up Keren- sky and make a success of the provisional government. Senator Xelson. You were there in February, 1918, and they got in control in November. Can you not tell us something about their activities, how many houses they occupied and how many people they killed, or something of that kind? Mr. . Very little, because I was not a newspaper man, and during that whole winter it was unsafe to be on the street at night. I attended to my business in the daytime, and I stayed at home nights. All rny friends who went into the streets, almost without exception, were robbed — lost their fur coats, or their money, or boots, or some- thing : they were held up on the streets and robbed ; and it was not a question of fighting, so that I did not care to go into it. Senator Xelson. There was a reign of terror and chaos prevail- ing? Mr. . When I left, there were 28 of the large houses of Petrograd that had been sequestered. A constant threat was held over the house where I lived, that it would be sequestered. Senator Xelson. They threatened to take that? Mr. . Yes: and we had it all arranged what to do, if thev did. Senator Xelson. Were they confiscating all kinds of property; I mean, were they taking it over? ]Mr. — • ■. For instance, if you started out with your automobile in the morning — if j'ou had one — the chances were that you would come home on foot. I do not think there was a private automobile in Petrograd left, when I left there ; they had all been taken over. Senator Xelson. Were there factories there? Mr. . Are there factories there ? Senator Xelson. Were there, before the revolution ? Mr. . Yes; that was quite a factory center. There were at least 400,000 workmen in Petrograd. Senator Xelson. Had they taken possession of those, too? Mr. . I do not know of any factories which were seriously in operation, excepting those connected with munitions. The Pouti- loff Works were running when I left. Senator Sterling. Those were munitions works? Mr. . Those were very large munitions works; the largest in Eussia. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 375 Senator Wolcott. Speaking of Col. Thompson, and the week of fear that he underwent _ Mr. . I will tell you, that was natural, because he was a very rich man and he thought that he would be a natural target for loot- ers. He imagined the looting would begin at once; but there was not anything of that kind happened. Senator Wolcott. Is it not a fact that his statements favorable to the Bolshevik were made to appease them, and to protect himself, when he was over there ? Mr. : I do not know. Col. Thompson came home and made three extraordinary statements, which were not borne out by the facts. Those statements were these. He had lived there three weeks under the Bolsheviki. He came back and spoke for them, and said. " The Bolsheviki will never make a separate peace with Germany." That fell. That is one statement. Then he said, " The Bolsheviki will never repudiate the public debt.',' That fell. Then he said, " The Bolsheviki are very anxious that a constitu- tional assembly meet." I saw that constitutional assembly dispersed with bullets. So that those three great statements Avhich he made in regard to Russia were not justified by the facts. Senator Wolcott. Here is a statement which he made. My eye is attracted by this, in view of the fact that you say that he was in such mortal fear during such a period, there. He said : " If at any time I saw danger, it was not in Russia." Mr. . Yes ; I saw that statement also, and I wondered what he meant by that. Senator Overman. How long was that after he gave this money to the Kerensky government? Mr. . That money to the Kerensky government had all been given before that. That was given in the early weeks of September. Senator Overman. How long did he stay there after the BoIsIk;- viki came in ? Mr. — . He stayed there until about the 1st of December. Senator Overman. May he not afterwards have gotten in touch with the Bolshevik government and contributed to them? Mr. ■ . I do not know. Maj. Humes. Wliat do you know about the Bolsheviki or any other element turning over to Col. Thompson large amounts of pillaged property which he now has stored in Stockholm ? Mr. . I do not think there is anything in that at all. I think — this is only my personal opinion — that there was a great deal of American money unwisely spent in Russia, ostensibly Red Cross money. I think it was not Red Cross money. I had no reason to believe it was. But Mr. Thompson was at one time interested in purchasing some private collections from peOple who had become practically bankrupt, and who were glad to depart with what they could get for their goods, and left those things. He never inter- ested himself in it at all, and I know he did make purchases. Senator Overman. How was Raymond Robins's administration of the Red Cross funds? , . , ^ ,, . -, . , , j^lj. . I do not think Robins had anything to do with the R^d Cross management. I think that was almost exclusively in the 376 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. hands of Mr. "Wardwell and Mr. Thacher, who, so far as I could judgGj were honest, conscientious workers. Ma]. Humes. Was not Wardwell sent to Petrograd to relieve Eobins, and had not Eobins been in charge up to that time ? ilr. . When I left, Robins was still in charge. Maj. Humes. Yes. Senator Nelson. How did you finally get out of Finland? Air. . Well, as I say, the prime minister gave us some cars and we went up to the end of the Red line, about 150 miles northwest of Helsingfors, and there we camped for 11 or 12 days, negotiating with the local guards and headquarters in Helsingfors, and we finally got permission to go through. Meanwhile we had not been able to get in communication with the Whites on the other side, and we took our chances as to the reception we would get. Senator Xelson. You had to go by way of Haparanda? ]Mr. . Yes ; but I mean going through the line we took our chances. We took our chance on going through the White line, as to the reception we would get. Meanwhile we had gotten the Reds to agree, and the red flag and a wliite flag on the ramparts stopped the firing on the other side. Senator Nelson. The White guards were friendly to you, were they not? Mr. . No more than the Red. Senator Nelson. No more than the Red? iSlv. . No more than the Red ; no. We received just as many ( curtesies from the Reds as from the Whites, and probably more. iNIaj. HrMEs. You had two Americans to deal with in the Red guard ? Mr. . Yes. I will tell you what our trouble was, when we got into the Whites. The officers we met at the lines were very fine fellows, but as we got into the interior we came in contact with yeagers. There were from 3,000 to 5,000 Finnish soldiers who had been in the German army, and who came up there and organized the White army, and those fellows were very anti-Ally, and we were not sure we would get by them. Senator Overman. You say Helsingfors is a very pretty city? Mv. . Yes ; a beautiful city. I expect to be there in a few weeks. Senator Overman. You sav that it has how many people? Mr. ■ . It is a city of 250,000. Senator Nelson. It has a university with from 800 to 1,000 stu- dents. Senator Overman. Is there anything else, gentlemen? Senator Nelson. Is there anything else you would like to tell us? Mr. . No; I think not. Senator Nelson. Anything bearing on this matter? Mr. . No: I think not. Senator Overman. What Avas Col. Thompson doing there? What was his business ? ]Mr. . He was in charge of the Red Cross there, to which he had made very heavy contributions. Senator 0\erman. Was he appointed in this country? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 377 Mr. . He was appointed in this country, and I think he spent a great deal of his own money in the support of the work after he got there ; but I know, as a fact — I will state that as a fact because I saw so much of him that he could not have done anything of that sort without my knowing it — that he refused absolutely to meet anybody who came to talk business with him, and he said to me, " I want no interests whatsoever in Eussia^no business interests in Russia." That rumor is not foundefl. Senator Wolcott. You can answer this question or not, as you de- sire. Were your differences with Col. Thompson on a personal mat- ter over the merits of Bolshevism ? Mr. . Just on the merits of Bolshevism. Senator Overman. You speak Russian, do you? Mr. . Yes, sir. Senator Steeling. Did you meet some of the leaders of the first revolution — Miliukoff, and those men? Mr. . Yes, sir ; I know those gentlemen well. Senator Steeling. How did those men impress you? Mr. . Well, they are men rather above the average in bril- liancy of intelligence, and, like all Russians, highly educated men, they do not know the first letter of compromise. They can not get together and agree on anything. Every man is cocksure. Miliukoff is one of the most brilliant men that I ever met, but he launched a proposition which he might just as well have kept to himself, about taking over Constantinople, etc., which cost him his position in the cabinet, and lost his influence with the rest of the revolution. Senator Overman. Were you brought in connection with the Czar at any time? Mr. . Only to see him passing through the streets. Business people did not meet the Czar very often. I have seen him a great many times, and his family. Senator Steeling. Did you ever see that monk? ilr. . Xo ; I never saw him, I am sorry to say. Senator \elson. In a general way, how did you find doing busi- ness under the government of the Czar? Mr. . It was extremely easy. Life there was extremely comfortable, and I always found the courts absolutely fair. That is the chief thing. If the courts are fair, it is a good place to do busi- ness. Senator Xelsox. The Russian peasants who live in the mirs are a fine, good-natured people, you think? Mr. . They are the sof test-natured people in the world, when they are not wild. It is one of the most comfortable countries to live in, from my experience, in Europe. Traveling there was most com- fortable, also. Senator Nelson. And perfectly safe? Mr. . Yes. Collecting your bills was as easy as in the United States. Senator Nelson. And those peasants were a good, honest set of people ? JjIi-. . Very. I could have told stories about them in the revolution; how they came to the rescue. Fellows who worked for 378 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. me in the past, when they heard we were short of food in Petrograd would come in the night time and bring us food. (Thereupon tlie executive session was concluded.) (A letter and inclosure, ordered by the chairman to be inserted in the record, are here printed in full, as follows :) The American Jewish Committee, SI Union Square West, New York, Fehruary 15, 1919. Deab Senatob : I have been following the published reports of the investiga- tion that has been in progress by thfe committee of which you are the chairman, with relation to Bolshevism. The account of the statements made by Dr. George S. Simons and the form of some of the questions which purport to have been addressed to him are of such a character as to satisfy me that, to say the least, there is a grave misunderstanding as to the attitude of the Jews toward Bolshevism. I have accordingly, as president of the American Jewish Committee, prepared a statement covering various of the features of Dr. Simons'? deposition, which corrects the inaccuracies and, what I regard, the unfairness of much that he has said. I should appreciate it if you would make this state- ment, which appeared in to-day's New York Times and of which I inclose a clipping, a part of the records of the proceedings pending before your committee, in order that the antidote may go with the poison. There is such a lack of understanding throughout the country with regard to the East Side, and such a misconception of what it is and what it stands for, that it is to be regretted that those who know are never asked to give information, but that a man like Dr. Simons, who. has apparently been out of the country lor eleven years, is at once looked upon as an expert concerning it and is heralded as such throughout the country. The residents of the Bast Side of New York are, as a whole, a reputable, honorable, and patriotic a body of people as are to be found in any other part of the country. They are industrious, law-abiding, and intellectual ; they per- form the duties of citizenship, they pay their taxes, they participate in elections, they have ideals, they educate their children, they understand the spirit of America, and are in every way entitled to fair treatment. There are but few illiterates among them, no paupers, and no intemperance. They are ambitions and are unwilling to be exploited. The records of our public libraries show that they read more books, and better books, than are read in any other part of the city, and, I may add, in the country. I have attended meetings of pushcart peddlers, where they listened with interest and understanding to lectures on philosophy and the higher mathematics. I have visited classes of boys and girls who worked hard for a livelihood, who were engaged in studying Aristotle's ethics and politics. During the past few weeks I have been engaged as one of the arbitrators in conjunction with Prof. William Z. Ripley and Prof. Felix Frankfurter in adjusting the clothing workers' strike, which involved fifty-five thousand East Siders, and I can say to you that America can feel proud of having among its citizens men of the capacity and character of those who were the leaders of the workers and the manufacturers who were concerned in this economic conflict. It has become fashionable for newspaper men who desire copy to treat the East Side as a bugaboo. By this time the average citizen of other Stai;es imagines that the East Side is an inferno and the dwelling place wherein evils of every kind lurk. Consequently, for a stage setting and for dramatic effect, Bolshevism, with gnashing teeth and scraggly beard and dripping dagger, is pictured as stalking through the noisesome alleys in the imaginary East Side. The actual picture of the East Side, which would confront a visitor who pro- ceeds with open eyes and open mind, would lead him to wonder how it is pos- sible in this day and generation, to permit prejudice and ignorance to malign an entire community which possesses qualities which will eventually be recog- nized as constituting one of the most valuable assets in American life. There are to-day prominent in every walk of business, in every profession, in every industry, the products of the East Side, and a sense of sadness possesses me when I consider the injustice which has been inflicted for so long, and which seems never to end. upon these people. I have studied the East Side for 2.5 years. During that period I have been a director of the Educational Alliance, of which the late Isidore Strauss, who BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 379 met death heroically on the Titantio, was the president. I have been privileged to address many meetings in that section of the city and to participate in dozens of activities. I read the Yiddish newspapers and am constantly called into consultation and , conference with respect to every imaginable movement that can concern the public which affects the East Side, and I can therefore speak with authority when I say that there never has been a baser slander uttered than to charge by innuendo that the Jews of the East Side are Bol- shevists. I speak thus feelingly, because I believe that nothing can be more injurious to the welfare of our country than to create artificial divisions between the different portions of our population, than to disseminate false opinions, and to engender hatred and misunderstandings. We are all of us talking too much about differences of nationality and of race. We are accentuating the varia- tions which will always exist where there are human beings. Would it not be better if a real effort were made for mutual understanding to the end that we may constitute a unified people? I am inclosing a report of a meeting in November last .at Madison Square Garden, in which I had the honor to par- ticipate, which represents what to my mind is the ideal attitude for those who are concerned in the future of this country to adopt. Very truly, yours,- LotFis Maeshall, President American Jewish Gommiitee. Hon. Lee S. Overman, Senate Chamber, Washington, D. C. [The New York Times, Saturday, Feb. 15, 1919.] SAYS MASS OP JEWS OPPOSE B0I.SHEVIKI LOUIS MARSHALI,, HEAD OF AMERICAN .TEWISH COMMITTEE, REPLIES TO DR. SIMONS — EAST SIDE NOT A HOTBED — STATE- MENT CALLS TESTIMONY TO THE CONTRARY BEFORE SENATE COMMITTEE " BIDICULOTJS." Louis Marshall, president of the America u .Jewish Committee, has given out a statement taking issue with the testimony of Dr. George S. Simons last Thursday before the subcommittee on the Judicary of the Senate, which is investigating Bolshevism. Dr. Simons testified regarding the activity of Jews in the Bolshevist movement in Russia, and said that the present chaotic con- ditions there are due in large part to the activities of Yiddish agitators from the Bast Side of New York City, who went to Russia immediately following the overthrow of the Czar. Mr. Marshall's statement reads : " I do not know Dr. Simons, who has made a sensational statement affecting the Jews before the Overman committee, but the fact that he seems to love the Russia of 1907 the period when Czarism was at its height, would indicate that his association' with the Jews has been but limited. He is entirely correct in one statement that the so-called Bolshevist Jews of Russia are apostles. They are more than that. Like all Bolshevik!, they bitterly hate all religion, and all that is comprehended in the abhorred word bourgeoisie. " The statements made by Dr. Simons, in other respects, are inaccurate, un- reliable and unfair. The Jews of Russia, as a mass, are the opponents of Bolshevism both because they belong to the bourgeoisie and because they ierisht^ir religion. The Bundists are an organization of Jewish working- men, whom the Bolshevikl are seeking to exterminate. JEWS IN OTHER PARTIES. "ThP Tews are also largely represented in the Social Democratic and the n +. .-^,^01 ^pmocra tic Parties, who are the sworn foes of Bolshevism. S?i''^''^*fTvnT who became the premier of Russia at the outbreak of the When Prince Lvof^^ YoiT was here recently, he stated to me that in his opinion revolution in March lJ17^^as anti-Bolshevist, that there are some men, 95 per cent of ^^e .lews of Russia ^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^ prominent mem- b^'fol'thf pSvlld pai^' and whose sins were seized upon by the anti- Semites for their own illegitimate purposes 380 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. " He told me that shortly before he came to this couutrv he had been for time imprisoned liy the Bolshevlkl, and while incarcerated he wns visited In- nl Pohakoff, A\ho held an office of some importance under the Bolsheviki ' The prince had known him for simie time, and expressed his surprise that he should have affiliated himself with that' party, 'for,' he said, 'you know that, b'eins i Jew, whatever you do will, as usual, be charged against the .Jews as a whole' To this PoliakofC replied : 'Although I was born a .Tew I have no interest what- ever in the .Tews or in any other religious body. I am an internationalist, and I am not in any way concerned with what becomes of the .Tews.' " At about the same time there had been an outbreak, which resulted in the loss of many .Tewish lives, and a committee called on Trotsky to urge upon him the necessity of taking steps for the protecting of their lives. He very coolly answered that he was not interested in the .Tews or in whnt might happen to them, and that he did not regard himself as a .Tew in any sense. CAI.I.S DEDUCTIOXS ILLOGICAL. " The fact that Dr. Simons may be able to prepare a list of Jews who iire Bolsheviki means nothing. I could go to Ossining to-morrow and preiiare from the records there a list of criminals who may happen to be of English, French, Italian, or Slavonik parentage, or who may belong to the Episcopalian, Metho- dist, Baptist, or Catholic Churches and seek to deduce from such lists con- clusions derogatory of the nationality or of the church to which they belong with as much reason as Dr. Simons has to deduce from his list the conclusion which he is apparently seeking to inculcate. In fact, Lenine, who heads the list, is not a Jew, and Martoff, who appears upon it, is strongly opposed to Bolshevism. " He says that Jews from the East Side went to Russia immediately after the revolution and are now active Bolsheviki. It is well known that when the news of the revolution came, there were qviite a number of Russians, both .Tews and non-Jews who returned to their native land. Some of them placed themselves at the disposal of Milukov and Kerensky. Others doubtless joiaed the Bolsheviki. Their return was encouraged by the Russian Government, which supplied them with the means of transportation. The suggestion that any financial or other assistance came from the T>-ist Side is a ridiculous fabrication. " There is an intimation that there are .Jewish Bolshevists in this cnuntr.v, The term ' Bolshevist,' as now used, means anything or everything to which the speaker may for the moment be opposed. I deny that there is ou the East Side any considerable number of those who are opposed to government, or who adhere to or sympathize with the anarchistic conceptions of Lenine and Trotsky. In fact, several of the leading Socialists who knew Trotsky when he was in this country looked upon him as a lunatic, and are unable to conceive how it was possible for a man of his character and mental qualities to attain the station that he now occupies. They deride him to-day as they did when he was a Bronx penny-a-liner. JEWS LOVE LAW AND ORDEB. "Everything that real Bolshevism stands for is to the Jew detestable. His traditions wed him to law and order, make of him a legalist. The Bolshevists are the enemies of law and order. The Jew makes the very center of his life and of his existence the home and the family. The Bolshevists decry marriage and contemn morality. The Jew is .iustly noted for being thrifty and economi- cal, and with recognizing as necessary the institution of property. The Bolshe- vist is seeking the destructicn of the very concept of property. The great mass of the Jews are faithful \n their ancient religion and iire ever ready i» help their brethren in distress. The club of the Bolshevist knows no brother and he despises religion. ' t ^ ti -r "The innuendo is alsn thrown out that the Jews are not patriotic. Le. then record during this war speak for them. They constitute but 3 per cent of the population of this country, yet more than 5 per cent of their number entered our .Army and Xavy, and a larger pro]iortion of the number as vohuite-n's. 1 expect shortly to supply an authentic list of all the men who served under the colors, so as to be able to present to our maligners irrefragable iirool that the .Tews have furnished in proportion to their numbers a larger quota to our military and naval forces than any other part of our population. :bolshevik propaganda. 381 "Let me also refer to the casualty lists to establish the fact that the Jews of this country not only served, but that they were brave and heroic, and were prepared to make the suijreme sacrifice for America because they love it. Let me also refer to the list of citations for exceptional heroism, to the men who fought in the Argonne Forest, to those- who constituted a part of the lost bat- talion, and who participated in every movement of our troops. You will find among them E^st Side Jews in large numbers. ■ " It is difficult to understand the motive behind this attempt to arouse un- worthy passions. Attack Bolshevism as much as you please, and the Jews of America are with you. But ■\\-hat justification is there for charging the Jews with Bolshevism, when in reality there is a smaller percentage of thcni wlw can truthfully be so denominated tlian there is in any other section of the American people? I might illustrate this point by referring to the recently published list of I. W. W.'s who are awaiting deportation, the vast majority of whom are non-Jews." (A statement in writing submitted by Mr. Simon Wolf, of Wash- ington, D. C, is, by order of the chairman, here printed in the record, as follows:) Statement of Mk. Simon Wolf. As chairman of the board of delegates on civil rights of the Union of Amer- ican Hebrew Congregations, and as resident member of the Independent Order of B'nai B'rith, a national and international organization, I beg leave to briefly state that I am in hearty accord with the statement submitted and filed (and made part of your record) by the Hon. Louis Marshall, of New York City. I am not at all surprised that the accusations against a certain portion of the human family entitled the Jewish is always made the scapegoat of every movement. It has been so from time immemorial. I am also reminded of the Irishman who beat the Jew and when asked why he did so said that he had killed Christ. When the answer came that that had been done thousands of years ago, the Irishman replied that he had never heard of it until that day. And. again, when a Jew was walking along the street, a stone was thrown from the opposite side. Naturally the .lew dodged and the stone went crashing into the plate glass window. The owner sued the Jew for damages and the judge decided that the Jew must pay, for had he not dodged the window would not have been broken. A great judge — but the misfortune is that the Jew through- out all history has been dodging those kind of missiles and subjected to such unjust decisions. In my book entitled " The American Jew as Soldier, Patriot, and Citizen," I show conclusively that from the founding of the Republic up to the present day the Jewish contingent of our American citizenship have done more than ■their proportionate share — not more than their duty, but more than their numerical strength would warrant. The same is equally true in the great war thiit has so far terminated. Again we have shown a greater proportion. But, as I have said time and again, no class of citizens show more readiness to live and to die for our great institutions and to uphold our flag than the Jew, for here is our promised land, and from here goes forth the trumpet call for democracy and liberty. „ ,, Senator Vance, of North Carolina, in his famous lecture on The Scattered Nation " truthfuilv stated that the Jews are the gulf stream of history. Do not forget, gentlemen, that whatever the .Tew is, the Christian, being in the majority and in control, has made him. If he equals the best, it is because the opportunity to be so has not been denied him. If he stands on an equality with the worst no one is to blame except his surroundings, and whatever he does whether o-ood or bad, is not done as a Jew but as a human being, and after all the Christian world has not a mortgage on the good or the bad. If crimes and outrages have been committed in Bussia they are not due to the Jews but to oppression and persecution which the Jews, in common with the other governed of that country, have had to endure. . . I incorporate herein a naracrrnph sent me hy an eminent Russian gentleman, an American citizen born in Russia, but whose judgment I highly value: " T note this morning that Lloyd George admits that the Soviets have accumu- lated sufficient military strength to require formidable force to conquer them. I note further that George claims that Wilson positively refuses to participate 382 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. in any armed invasion of Russia, and that the miUtary burden would conse- quently fall on England and France, and that these two nations lack both the strength and the will to undertake such a task. Hence, I conclude that the Russian revolution will boil itself out and through, the same as did the French Revolution. There will be no foreign invasion or participation. The Russian people will decide and determine their own destiny. " How much of the ' reign of terror ' Russia has already gone through is hard to say. Thanks to a strict censorship, we know nothing authentic of doings in the interior of Russia. One thing is sure — the Russian people, and mark, please, that I do not mean the grand ducal families, mostly educated in France, but the actual Russian peasantry, is not bloodthirsty. No guillotine has yet been set up or worshiped. There may be a Robespierre, or several Robespierres, but I am sure there is no Marat. Of course, we have Girondlnes in plenty. Since there is to be no foreign invasion, Russia has no further need for a Dante. So that, on the whole, I say that for the present, there is nothing else to be done or said, except to leave the Russian revolution to boil itself out." I also quote the following extract from the Outlook of last week, entitled " The valor of the east side," which speaks for itself : "A recent letter home from a staff officer in France glories in the splendid mettle and loyal Americanism of the men drafted from the motley foreign-born population of New York's east side. An editorial in the New York Times recently devoted a column to one of them, Abraham Krotoshinsky (said to have been a barber), cited by Gen. Pershing for his heroic exploit in aiding in the rescue of " the lost battalion " in the Argonne Forest. " The following paragraphs in the above-mentioned letter are of more than local and private interest : " ' This division is made up of the puny east siders, who a New York dude thought could never hold their own with the sturdy sons of the West. We have got something to be justly proud of in this, the great melting pot of New York typified and glorified. Our burial lists show the names of the Jew, the Italian, the Russian, the Polack, the Irishman, the German, fighting for the free Government which has aided and protected each. They have offered their lives for their country, and in so doing have become real Americans — ^no matter where they came from and how they spell their names, as good Americans as those of us whose ancestors fought in all our wars. (The writer is one of these. ) " ' War is the great equalizer, the real melting pot. It has welded for us a great people united by the common bond of sacrifice and devotion, courage and suffering in a common cause. It is our regeneration, our rebirth, a revolution such as we have never experienced in all our history. This will not be realized till after the business has been finished up.' " And in this connection I wish to state that when the Spanish War broke out over 600 Jews volunteered from the east side, most of whom had come from Russia, who had fled from persecution and serving in the Russian Army, and yet had volunteered to fight for liberty. There is no danger in this country in the direction of Jewish influence or action, and it gives me great pleasure to state that the danger to our institutions does not come from those who are illiterate or from those who come with brain and brawn, but from those vvho speak seven languages and are patriotic in none. Watch the mouthing, ranting anarchists and the scheming politicians, who cater to their accursed plotting, and all danger will be averted. The Jew as a man and a citizen will aid you to bring about that perfect accord in the affairs of Government without which the Republic would be a mere " scrap of paper." Simon Wolf. (At 6.30 O'clock p. m. the subcommittee adjourned until to-morrow, Tuesday, February 18, 1919, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.) BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. TUESDAY, FEBKUABY 18, 1919. United States Senate, Subcommittee of the Committee on the Jtidiciaey, Washington, D. C. The subcommittee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., pursuant to adjourn- ment, in Poom 226, Senate Office Building, Senator Lee S. Overman presiding. Present: Senators Overman (chairman), King, Wolcott, Nelson, and Sterling. Senator Overman. The committee will come to order. Maj. Humes, who is the next witness? Maj. Humes. The next witness is Mr. Herman Bernstein. TESTIMONY OF MIt. HERMAN BEENSTEIN. The witness was sworn by the chairman. Maj. Humes. Mr. Bernstein, where do you live? Mr. Bernstein. I live in New York ; 2761 Briggs Avenue. Maj. Humes. What is your business? Mr. Bernstein. I am a journalist and correspondent, representing many American newspapers. Maj. Humes. In connection with your newspaper work, have you been in Eussia during the last few years at various times? Mr. Bernstein. I was in Eussia three times since the Eussian revolution. I was there in 1917, and then I was there in 1918, and I have just returned from Siberia, two weeks ago. Maj. Humes. Mr. Berstein, you are representing the New York Herald, I believe? Mr. Bernstein. Yes; the New York Herald, and about 40 other newspapers affiliated Avith the New York Herald. Maj. Humes. Will you give to the committee the result of your observations in Europe or Eussia, on these various trips, of the operations of the revolutionary government. Mr. Bernstein. Gentlemen, first of all, permit me to correct a wrong impression that has been produced with regard to the Jewish people by the testimony of certain witnesses at these hearings. Dr. oimons, who lived for a number of years in Eussia, practically branded Bolshevism in Eussia as a movement of Jewish origin, even though he endeavored to soften the impression by calling the Bol- shevist leaders apostate Jews. He made public a list of names of Jewish Bolshevist leaders. Some of the names in that list are not Jewish and some are not Bolshevists. He also stated that the great 383 334 BOLSHEVIK. FROPAGANDA. majority of the Bolsheviki in Eussiii came from the East Side of Xe^Y York. Senator Wolcott. I do not think he said exactly that, Mr. Bern- stein. I do not think lie said the majority of the Bolshevists came from Xew York. Mr. BEE^•STEI^^ If I remember correctly, I think he mentioned — - Senator "Wolcott. He said a great number. ilr. Bernstein. I think he mentioned a very large number. Senator Oveemax. He said many. He did not say a majority of them or an}' considerable number. Maj. Humes. He referred to one soviet in Mhich ilr. Bernstein. There were about nine-tenths, I think he said. Maj. Humes. The officers of one soviet, the majority of whom were apostate Jews. Mr. Bernstein. Well, I think that such statements are as unjust as they are inaccurate. It would, of course, be quite as absurd and un- just to call Bolshevism a Christian movement because its fitther and founder. Nicholas Lenine. is a Christian, or because the most active and most influential Bolshevist leaders, such as Commissar for For- eign Affairs Tchitcherin, the commander in chief who demoralized the Russian Army, Ensign Krylenko, Commissars Dubenko, Kollon- tay, Lunacharsky, Bonch-Bruyevitch. and Maxim Gorky who first aided the Bolshevist movement, then denounced it, and now supports it again, are all Christians. Senator Overman. You mean Christians as distinguished from Jews? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Overman. You do not mean they acknowledge the Chris- tian religion, because it has been testified here that the}' are against that religion. Mr. Bernstein. That is, so-called Christians. Nor would it be fair to call the Bolshevist movement in this country a Christian move- ment because the leading apologists, defenders, and agents of the Bolsheviki. such as Albert Rhys Williams, John Reed, Raymond Robins, Col. Thompson, and Louise Bryant are Christians. Bolshevism is not a question of religion or race. Xor does the East Side of Xew York deserve the blame for all the wrongs and horrors committed in Russia under the Bolshevist tyranny. Senator Xelson. Did not Trotsky come from the East Side? INIr. Bernstein. Well, Trotsky was two months on the East Side of Xew York and was very unpopular there. Senator Xelson. Did he not stay there almost all the time he was in A.merica ? ]\Ir. Bernstein. Trotsky was two months on the East Side in the beginning of 1917, just before the outbreak of the revolution, and returned to Russia. Senator X'elson. And now he is one of the head men over there? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. When the autocracy of the Romanoffs was overthrown, the provisional government threw the doors of Russia wide open to all political exiles. The provisional government was (Composed of such conservatives and liberals as Prince Lvoff and Paul Milikoff. There was only one Socialist in the first cabinet, Alexander Kerensky, then minister of justice. And from all corners of the earth BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ,385 all sorts of political exiles hurried to Eussia. Some came from America, some from England, others from France, Italy, Switzer- land, and the Scandinavian countries. Among the political exiles there were many ordinary criminals who suddenly styled themselves also political exiles, and these hosts of discontented preachers of un- rest have played an important part in paralyzing Russia. Bolshevism, as a faction of the Social Democratic Party, was born about 15 years ago. Several Russians kept it edixe quietly but ener- getically. Lenine was the founder of the movement. In 1909 a Bolshevist school was established in Capri, Italy, on funds secured by Maxim Gorky. That school was organized by the following men: Lenine, Maxim Gorky, Lunacharsky, Alexinsky, Bogdanov, and Milhallov. .None of these are Jews. The Bolsheviki had representa- tives in the Russian Duma under the Czar's regime, and their leader was Malinovsky, an intimate friend of Lenine's Shortly after the outbreak "of the war it was established that while being a member of the executive committee of the Bolsheviki Malinovsky was also an agent provacateur in the pay of the Tsar's government. When this was revealed, Lenine tried to defend and whitewash him. During the war Malinovsky was in Germany conducting Bolshevist propaganda for the German Government among the Russian prisoners of war. The Bolshevism of Lenine, Trotsky, and Tchitcherin is the natural offspring of the monarchistic Bolshevism of Nicholas II and Wil- helm II. Reactionary Bolshevism breeds anarchistic Bolshevism. The Prussian militaristic government of the Kaiser helped to create the Bolshevist movement that has now transformed Russia into a huge graveyard, into a tyranny over the people by a small but daring set of fanatics and unscrupulous charlatans. It is true there are a number of Jews among the leaders of the Bolsheviki in Russia. They disclaim their Judaism. They say they are neither Jews nor Russians, but internationalists. Besides, it should be remembered that despite the educational restrictions the Jews had a proportionately larger percentage of intellectuals than the Russians ; that the despotism of the autocracy was directed chiefly against the Jews; that all governmental departments wei'e closed to the Jews, no matter how capable they were. The government of the Tsar preferred to employ Germans in the various departments, so that Russia was Prussianized long before the outbreak of the war. While the Bolshevist movement is directed also against the intel- lectuals, the Bolsheviki could not help choosing a number of Jews among the leaders. But the great mass of the Jewish people in Rnsfiia is strongly opposed to the Bolsheviki, for there is no element of the Russian population that has been hit harder by Bolshevism than the Jews. One of the worst Jewish pogroms was made by the Bolsheviki. The entire Jewish population of the town of Glukhov was massacred by the Red Guards last year. Under such circumstances it is both absurd and unjust to charge the Jewish people with the responsibility for the Bolshevist move- ment. ■ Senator Nelson. What is it composed of? Russians? Mr. Beensteix. This social revolutionary- party is the party of Kerensky and the saner elements in Russia who want a democratic Russia. 35723—10 •2- 386 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. That was before the Bolsheviki came in? Mr. Bernstein. No ; while the Bolsheviki were in power. Senator Nelson. I thought it was under the Kerensky adminis- tration. Mr. Bernstein. No ; I say the socialist revolutionary party is the party Senator Nelson. Who wanted this revolution? Mr. Bernstein. No ; this was in April, 1918 ; this was six months after Lenine and Trotzky had already come into power. Senator Nelson. They came in in November, 1917 ? Mr. Bernstein. They came in in November, 1917. Senator Wolcott. Is the socialist revolutionary party in Eussia a typical socialist party, or would it be more properly described in this country as a party advocating a democracy or a people's government? Mr. Bernstein. The socialist revolutionary party is the party that is advocating a democratic form of government for Eussia— a democratic representative form of government. Senator Nelson. The term " social " in that party does not mean necessarily socialism, as we understand it in its various forms in this country ? Mr. Bernstein. It is socialism, but it is the saner form of social- ism. They believe the doctrine of socialism can not be introduced in Russia for many, many years to come. Senator Nelson. Is not this the distinction that we make in this country, that they believe in what you call state socialism — we have the term that we use, and Bismarck was an advocate of it, " state socialism '' — in other words, have the state carry on as many govern- mental activities as possible, instead of private parties. Mr. Bernstein. That is it, exactly. Senator Nelson. And they are distinguished from these other radical socialists who believe in upheavals and the seizure by violence of the property of what they call the capitalists, and taking it in that way and operating it, in that they believe in having it done by legislative and peaceful means? Mr. Bernstein. Exactly. Senator Nelson. Is not that the distinction? Mr. Bernstein. This socialist revolutionary party has been advo- cating all along a constituent assembly. Senator 0^'ERMAN. A representative assemblj'? Mr. Bernstein. A representative, national, constituent assembly; and the Bolsheviki overthrew Kerensky on the ground that they said they also advocated a constituent assembly, and that Kerensky was postponing it too long. But the moment the constituent assem- bly was called they dispersed it because that constituent assembly happened to be against the Bolsheviki, two-thirds of it. Senator Wolcott. The difference seems to have been, then, in its practical manifestations, that Kerensky advocated a constituent as- sembly that was representative of the people, whereas the Bolsheviki wanted a constituent assembly that was representative of them. Mr. Bernstein. That is it exactly ; that is very true. That is a very important point. Senator Overman. Proceed. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 387 Mr. Bernstein. I am glad that our Senate has at last started an investigation into this movement whose purpose is to dynamite the world. I have called attention to its dangers in 1917 and through- out 1918. I have seen it at close range. I have visited Russia three times since the revolution. I was there when Prince Lvoff and Kerensky were the premiers; I have seen Russia under Lenine and Trotsky in 1918; and I have just returned from Siberia, which was liberated from Bolshevik rule by the brave Czecho-Slovaks. I have no fear of telling the truth about Russia. I have published the facts in the columns of the New York Herald, the Washington Post, and other important newspapers in various parts of this coun- try. For many years before the revolution I described in the New Yor)?: Times and Sun the cruelties of the Russian autocracy, but at the same time I familiarized American readers with the better side of Russia, with Russian genius, with Russian literature, and Russian art. I was not afraid to tell the truth about the tyranny of the Tsar, apd I am not afraid to tell the truth about the tyranny of Lenine and Trotsky. Those who believe in democracy, in social justice, in " gov- ernment of the people, by the peop'le, for the people," in freedom of the press, in freedom of speech, in the rule of the majority, de- nounced the tyranny of the Tsar, and now denounce the tyranny of the Bolsheviki. For they have no democracy, .no social justice, no government of the people, no freedom of press, no freedom of speech — they hare a dictatorship over the people including the proletariat. I believe that the only way of disarming Bolshevism is to tell the truth about what it is doing. The Bolsheviki know this too, and that is why they havg strangled the free press in Russia, and allow no news to leave Russia. There are four types of people who have seen Russia under Bol- shevist rule and who nevertheless praise it, advocating its cause, seeking to spread it in this country, and but a short while ago urged the recognition of the Bolsheviki by our Government under the dis- guise of Soviets. These are the Bolshevik emissaries, propagandists, and agents who are paid by the Bolsheviki. Senator Overman. You mean these agents in this country are paid by the Bolsheviki ? Mr. Bernstein. I mean some of them have been employed by them in Russia. Senator Overman. You do not know whether any money has been sent to this country or not? Mr. Bernstein. I do not know about money being sent to this country. Senator Nelson. You believe they have sent agents to this country ? . Mr. "Bernstein. Yes. Second, parlor socialists, reformers, and faddists of all kinds who do not know Russia, who could not speak to the Russian people, who could not read the Russian newspapers, and who get their informa- tion from the Bolshevik leaders just as ambassadors in bygone days received their information about the Tsar's government from the Tsar and his bureaucrats. 388 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Third, the Bolsheviki — or ^TOuld-be Bolsheviki — the extremists of all kinds, wherever they are. Fourth, those ^Tho were pro-German and who concealed their pro-German leanings mider the cloak of Bolshevism, for it must not be forgotten that Russian Bolshevism was nourished in this war by Prussian militarism. Senator Nelson. Let me see if I imderstand you. You believe that Bolshevism in Russia was launched and nourished and put forth by Germany ? Mr. Bernstein. By Germany. The fact that the Bolsheviki handed Russia over to the Prussian militarists at Brest -Litovsk can not be denied. Lenine, who arrived in Petrograd from Switzer- land — not from the East Side of Xew York — by way of Germany one month after the revolution, with a trainload of his followers, commenced to dynamite Russia by his false promises and spurious theories, demoralizing the Russian Army and the working people. It was this destructive work that culminated in the betrayal at Brest-Litovsk. Those who are inclined to praise the Bolsheviki on the ground that they brought about a revolution in Germany do not. face the facts squarely. The German revolution came not because of the Bolsheviki but in spite of them. In fact, they retarded the German revolution. Senator Wolcott. You say the Bolsheviki retarded the German revolution ? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Wolcott. How so? Mr. Bernstein. Well, the socialist elements in Germany saw the horrible example of the destruction of Russia by the so-called socialists, and that, of course, has intensified the reactionary move- ment in Germany and has weakened the more liberal elements. They always pointed to what revolution means to a country, and in that way they have retarded the revolutionary movement in Germany. Senator Wolcott. Then your idea is that the Bolsheviki of Russia retarded the German revolution, not deliberatelj', and intentionally, but in an indirect waj^? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Wolcott. By showing to Germany by horrible example what the thing is in action? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Wolcott. And creating a revulsion against it in Ger- many ? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. To summarize what the Bolsheviki have achieved as destroyers of Russia is to recount the tragedy of the Russian people, who are now suffering untold agonies under the new slavery that has been im- posed upon them with the aid of Prussian bayonets and machine guns. They demoralized the Russian Armv', they demobilized it. they unchained the mob spirit, they incited civil war, they signed the Brest-Litovsk peace treaty which dismembered Russia, they paralyzed the industries, they increased the hosts of unemployed, they intensified starvation and suffering, they encouraged looting. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 389 murder, and teri'or, they strangled the press, they abolished courts of justice, they dispersed the constituent assembly, the representatives of the people, they murdered leading members of the constituent assembly, they shot down working people who made a demonstra- tion against the closing of the constituent assembly, they did ex- actly what the Tsar did on that terrible bloody Sunday in 1905, and then they established a dictatorship over the people of Russia, sup- ported by well-paid red guards, and they hounded the champions of Russian liberty, branding them as enemies of the people. While professing socialism they intensified reactiopi everywhere by their horrible example, they brutalized the Riissian masses, they pro- faned the ideals and symbols of liberty, and they discredited the idea of representative government, and retarded all sane movements for the betterment of mankind. They saved the imperialistic govern- ment of Germany in October, 1917, just when Austria was ready to break away from Germany. The Bolsheviki overthrew the Keren- sky government with the aid of German officers and prisoners of war. They enabled Germany to remove millions of her troops to the west- ern front, transforming Russia into a German colony. In the mean- time they wrecked Russia, they conducted a systematic campaign against the allies and the friends of Russia, particularly against the President of the United States, who on all occasions manifested the deepest sympathy for the Russian people, they attacked England, France, and the United States, they published secret treaties found in the Foreign Office, but shielded the central powers — particularly the Kaiser. They did whatever the Prussian militarists ordered them to do, and when the German ambassador. Count von Mirbach, was assassi- nated by Russian patriots who could not endure the new yoke of Kaiserism imposed upon Russia through the Bolsheviki, the wretched tools of the Kaiser put to death a large number of Russian revolution- ists. But when Shingaryov and Kokoshkin were murdered in a hospital during their sleep by Red Guards and sailors, Lenine did not punish the murderers, even though all Russia knew who they were. For Shingaryov and Kokoshkin were not German officials, they were only great Russian patriots and reformers who devoted their lives to the betterment of the condition of the Russian people — and they were opposed to the Bolsheviki. The Bolsheviki pillaged and looted and robbed the Russian people of the conquests of their revolution, of their liberty. They were corrupt, they were merciless and cynical in their grafting. There was nothing that one could not get by bribing a commissar, begin- ning with a passport and ending with a battleship. On August 14, 1917, 1 cabled an interview with Kerensky in which he made the following plea at the time the Bolshevist wave was ebbing : I wish the great American democracy, especially at this moment, would come to our assistance energetically, for only in the hour of need we can best tept our friends. A deep, strong source of moral power is insufficient just now. It is necessary to add 'material support. On my return from Russia, in September, 1917, I wrote the fol- lowing lines in my note book concerning the Bolsheviki : Those who feared or hated the new freedom in Russia did not remain idle. There were three elements that sought its destruction. The agents of the 390 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGA^TDA. secret police department and tlie gendarmerie of tlie old regime, together with leaders of the Black Hundred, painting themselves red, posing as revolution- ists, spread disorder, race hatred, and provocation against the new revolution- ary government. Senator Wolcott. Just to get it in the record, will you tell us what is meant by the phrase '" Black Hundred "? Mr. Been'stein. The Black Hundred was the reactionary organ- ization in Eussia which had for its program the spreading of Jewish massacres. Senator Xelson. "Was it not the leavings of the old nihilists? ^Ir. Bekxsteix. Xo: I think that Avas an entirely different move- ment. That was a movement supported by the reactionary elements under the Tsar, and it was the purpose of «that organization to create race hatred and to set one oppressed nationality against another. Senator Xelsox. You think this was a movement in favor of the Tsar's government ? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Nelson. I see. Mr. Bernstein. I say this was one of the elements that was nat- urally opposed to the revolution. Then came the Bolsheviki — radical social democrats, irresponsible demagogues, apostles of dissension, of permanent revolution, and unrest — who boldly attempted to overthrow the new freedom. The third element, Avhich was responsible for the activities of the others in a large measure, is the German military clique which conspired against new Russia and attempted to violate her freedom. All these elements worked in the same direction. They cun- ningly circulated among the ignorant Russian masses incendiary propaganda and appeals to demand all radical reforms immediately, to divide the land immediately, to disregard authority, to attack the capitalists, to shout for immediate peace, to distrust the new revo- lutionary leaders of the ^Deople. The vilest slanders against revo- lutionary heroes were spread throughout the land, in the army and the navy, in large cities and little villages. The seeds of discord :=;own diabolically soon commenced to bring forth fruits of demorali- zation. Anarchy, chaos, general suspicion, and A'iolence broke into ithe festivities of Russia's young liberty. I have seen Russia in convulsions, torn by partisan conflicts, quak- ing feverishly from amateurish experiments of every kind, from quack remedies made in Germany and applied by impractical dream- ers of internationalism, by charlatans, by escaped criminal convicts posing as revolutionists, by agents provocateurs. The most fantastic falsehoods were injected into the unthinking gray masses; dangerous slogans Avere circulated, inciting anarchy. I have seen the Bolsheviki, the Leninites, in action. Their destruc- tive propaganda, which was carried on by ii-responsible theorists, hand in hand with escaped murderers, and German provocateurs; their attempts to reap the fruits of their dastardly work during the first months of the revolution ; their efforts to impose the dictatorship of the mailed list upon the majority of the Russian people. I have seen heroes and traitors, saints, martyrs, and cowards, all passing with kaleidoscopic rapidity upon the historic screen of the Russian revolution. I haA^e seen people who gaA^e their all — then' energies, their dreams, their lives — to save Russia, and I have seen BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 391 the great mass of the people who do not know, because they were never permitted to know before, what real love of country means. Having been kept in darkness and oppression the Russian people were dazed by the great flood of the sudden light of liberty. They, who suffered under the reign of the knout and the bayonet, suddenly set free, mistook license for liberty. I went to Russia again in, February, 1918. Upon my return from Bolshevik-ridden Russia, in May, 1918, I wrote the following notes ill my summary of the Russian situation : After the betrayal at Brest-Litovsk, the official organs of the Soldiers' and Workmen's Council boasted with cynical bravado and ■clumsily defended the action of the Lenine government, endeavoring to prove to the masses that the peace procured by their delegates at Brest-Litovsk gave Russia a breathing spell during which the proletariat could gather new strength to continue the social revolution throughout the world. While the government was hurrying away from Petrograd the lines of human beings waiting for food kept growing longer and longer ; the people , seeking permits to leave the city kept increasing rapidly ; confusion and panic were spreading as the rvimors and legends became wilder from hour to hour. But when the government had moved away, when it was announced that the commissars had actually arrived in Moscow, Petrograd heaved a sigh of relief. The people did not know exactly why, but instinctively they felt relieved. Little by little the looting in the streets decreased. It was as though the epidemic of Bolshevism, which had broken out first in Petrograd, was sub- siding in that city first. There appeared a perceptible tendency toward order at once. Fewer people were shot in the streets. If the cost of living was higher in Petrograd than anywhere else in the world, the cost of human life was lower there than anywhere else. The holding up of men and women in the streets, often even in broad daylight, was a matter of common occurrence. Such episodes no longer attracted attention. No one interfered, because it was dangerous to interfere. Men in uniform would stop prosperous-looking passersby, rob them, and some- times kill them. There was no police or militia to defend them, and the people in the streets, pedestrians or izovschiks, hurried on, glancing back furtively to see whether anyone was following them. Men in uniform arrested people in their homes, broke into hotels, searching and robbing them. The pretext was that they were searching for firearms, for counter revolutionists and specula- tors. Red Guards would often lead their victims away " somewhere." Many never returned home alive. They were shot on the way. The usual excuse for such executions was that the prisoners attempted to escape and had to be shot. The newspapers contained daily records of innocent persons shot on the way to prison because they attempted to run away. As a rule the victims were found with bullets in their chests. Some succeeded in bribing their way to safety by large sums of money divided among the uniformed gunmen. Senator Sterling. AVho was the Secretary of War at that time, do you know? That was before Tx'otsky, was it not? Mr. Bernstein. That was before Trotsky. When Trotsky was named Secretary of War, at that time Krylenko was Secretary of War. Senator Overman. You used the word there, and I notice it has been used frequently by witnesses, " speculators." What do you mean bj' that ? Mr. Bernstein. That is a term used by them for profiteers. They have a special office Senator Wolcott. Is that a fair description in (English? A " profiteer," as we understand the term in this country, is a man who makes an unreasonable, or what might be called an unsconscionable, profit out of the Government. Is not a profiteer, or speculator, as 392 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. they think of him, a man who buys and sells for a fair profit ? Would he not be a speculator ? Mr. Bernstein. They established an office in Petrograd, a commis- sariat, on counter-revolution and speculation, and anyone who was opposed to the Bolsheviki could be classified as either a counter- revolutionist or a speculator and dealt with according to their pleas- ure, ilany people were taken there and charged with being either a counter-revolutionist or speculator, and they were later shot in the yard at that commissar's office. The head of it was Uritsky, who was later assassinated. Senator Xelson. At all events, they did not belong to the prole- tariat '. Mr. Bernstein. Xo. Senator Xelson. They were not supposed to belong to them ? Mr. Bernstein. Xo. Anyone who was opposed to them was easily classified by them as either a counter-revolutionist or a speculator. It did not matter whether he was even a workman. Senator Sterling. So it was really a reign of terror there, and by force, murder, and assassination they sought to impose the rule of the Bolsheviki on the people ? ]Mr. Bernstein. Absolutely. On the day the Brest-Litovsk peace was being ratified by the Soldiers and Workmen's Council in Moscow, I interviewed Leon Trotsky at the Smolny Institute, in Petrograd. He told me that neither Germany nor the Bolsheviki considered that peace was of long duration, and added that he had just been appointed head of the revolutionarj' committee to organize the Red army. He defended himself and other Bolshevist leaders against the charge that they were German agents by saying that the allied ambassadors in Russia had made many mistakes which aided the German Government in Russia. He made various sensational assertions on that occasion. One of them was that he knew that there was a secret treaty be- tween Japan and Germany during the war, and he said that Ger- many was to get a part of European Russia and Japan was to get a part of Siberia. He did not go to Moscow at the time, for he had become extremely unpopular on account of his attitude at Brest-Litovsk. Trotzky made way for Lenine, who took the center of the stage. The LeninL view on separate peace prevailed. The eyes of the working people are opening. They are beginning to realize how cruelly they have been deceived. Discontent is brew- ing everywhere in Russia among the working people. Here is a characteristic resolution adopted in May, 1918, by the workmen of the Petrograd arsenal : The only measure which could lead Russia out of her terrible plight is the immediate convening of the constituent assembly and the unification of the democratic forces. Instead of the agreement with Germany there should be an agreement with all the democratic parties in Russia. We demand the free import of products and the increase of the bread rations. There shall be no special privileges for the Red Army or any other organization. All organs supervising the department of provisions shall be reformed and new elections held. This resolution was adopted in Petrograd by 1,500 workmen against 2. There were hundreds of such resolutions recently adopted BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 393 in various parts of Russia, indicating that the Bolshevist epidemic is nearing its end. Russia is paralyzed by bolshevism, but the world must knoAv the facts. The industries, labor, and commerce are at a standstill; the schools are practically closed ; the railroads are crippled ; unemploy- ment is spreading rapidly ; anarchy is struggling to take the place of anarchistic socialism for a while ; the press is absolutely muzzled ; the Russian liberals and sane revolutionary leaders are men with- out a country. Only the presses turning out paper money without end are working uninterruptedly. Graft and corruption have reached the depths of depravity. The small imitators of the French revolutionists, instead of de- fending their country, as the French did, are wrecking it, and though they call themselves the advance agents of the social revolution throughout the world, they strike at the proletariat as well as at the rest of society, not only for the ]3resent but for generations to come ; they give new strength to the forces of darkness and reaction in every land; they undermine the work and achievements of the real reformers. As a famous Russian economist has aptly described the effect of bolshevism to me, the Bolsheviki have made Russia their laboratory and the Russian people their rabbits and guinea pigs upon which they are experimenting. And they are producing the strongest antidote to socialism for the whole world Senator Steeling. Did not Mr. Trotsky tell you in one of your in- terviews, and did he not tell a number of other persons to whom he spoke, that the Bolsheviki movement which culminated in a treaty witli Germany, had for its object ultimately the destruction of the allied governments, including the United States ? Mr. Bernstein. Well, that is the program of Bolshevism — to destroy all other forms of government, to overthrow all other forms of government, and impose the dictatorship of the proletariat through- out the world. Senator Sterling. Did he not state that by Russia withdrawing, it would weaken the allied forces so that Germany would have greater strength against the United States and the allied governments? Mr. Bernstein. No ; he did not make that statement. I mean, the effect of what they have done is known throughout all the world. The things they have done helped Germany more than anything else at any time. Senator Steeling. Did he denounce the United States as a tyran- nous form of government? Mr. Bernstein. No; he praised Germany for her being practical in dealing in realities, and ridiculed the United States and allies for dealing in ideals. Senator Nelson. He must have known, Mr. Bernstein,, that the effect of their propaganda was to help Germany against the allies. Mr. Beenstein. Oh, yes; there is not any doubt that they knew that. Senator Nelson. They must ha^e known that, and they must have intended it by their acts. Mr. Beenstein. Oh, yes; there is not any doubt that it was in- tended to help the central powers against the allies. 394 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Enslaved under Czarism, accustomed to obeying the master's voice and knout, the people suddenly heard another master's voice- that of the Bolsheviki — and they obeyed by force of habit. Thev followed blindly the new leaders, who were not blind but who blinded the masses by false doctrines and insincere promises. If Lenine and Trotsky were sincere when they came to Russia, if they really imagined Russia ripe for the great experiment of social revolution, if they actually believed that the illiterate Russian people, backward in education, commerce, industry, and agriculture, were ripe enough to ser\'e as the model for their Utopian reform — if Lenine and Trotsky were sincere and naive enough to believe this when they came to Russia, they are surely insincere now when they see the results of their destructive schemes, when they see how their childish diplomacy has handed Russia over to German imperialism, how their promises of peace have brought civil war to the Russian people, intensified by the yoke of Kaiserism. They can not be sincere and remain at the helm of the despotism which they call government. They can not be considered anything else than adventurers or mad- men, charlatans and gamblers, with Eussia as their stake and world destruction as their diabolical purpose. Senator Sterling. Mr. Bernstein, is it not a fact that the Lenine- Trotsln' regime executed a large number of men who wanted to con- tinue the fighting with the allies against the central powers? Mr. Bernstein. They executed a large number of men who disa- greed with them on any point. Senator Sterling. Well, were there not a good many Russians who, after the shameful betrayal of Eussia and the allies by Lenine and Trotsky, wanted to continue in the contest, having Eussia as a belligerent with the allies against the central powers, and made such representations to Lenine and Trotsky; and Lenine and Trotsky and the Bolsheviks murdered those men? Mr. Bernstein. Well, they executed a number of people who de- fended the government of Kerensky, which wanted to continue the struggle against Germany with the allies ; and then, of course, when they came to power they began to demobilize the army, and anyone who showed any resistance was either executed or thrown into prison. Senator Nelson. They executed many Eussian officers, did they not? Mr. Bernstein. Yes: large numbers of Eussian officers were exe- cuted. Many of them were executed during the first few days of the revolution when the soldiers were given absolute freedom and they lost control of themselves; but many of them were shot when the Bolsheviki came to power, simply laecause they were regarded as counter revolutionists. Senator Wolcott. The term " counter revolutionist " as applied by the Bolsheviki means what? Mr. Bernstein. Anyone who wants to make a revolution against them. Senator Wolcott. Against them? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. They have been called counter revolutionists by all democratic Eussia, and they are regarded so to-day. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 395 Senator Wolcott. That is the point I wanted to get at. A man might have been a violent and sincere advocate of revolution against the Tsar and the old regime, but if he was not in favor of the Bol- sheviki they called him a counter revolutionist? Mr. Bernstein. A counter revolutionist and an enemy of the people. Senator Steeling. Even though he is a proletariat? Mr. Bernstein. Yes; and that applies to all the best men and women of Russia simplj^ because they are opposed to the Bolsheviki. Senator Wolcott. Was that when you say these officers were shot and murdered? Mr. Bernstein. I mean they simply called them Senator Wolcott (interposing). Because they claimed they were counter revolutionists does not mean that they were in favor of the old Tsaristic regime? Mr. Bernstein. No; that does not mean that. Senator Wolcott. It simply means that they were opposed to the Bolsheviki ? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Sterling. Did you find any substantial sentiment any- where in Russia for the return of the monarchy ; at any rate before the Lenine-Trotsky saturnalia of crime and murder? Mr. Beenstein. I think the Tsar and his regime were so thor- oughly discredited in their last days, especiallj' in the course of the speeches that were made in the Duma, that there was no sentiment for it; but there was a great desire on the part of the people in Russia for the return of peace and order, of any orderly Government, and the danger was that if the Bolsheviki remained too long in power the Russian people might welcome Tsarism in preference to Bol- shevism. Senator Wolcott. That was the thought underlying the idea, that the Bolsheviki were themselves counter revolutionists, was it? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Wolcott. And that by their excesses they might drive the people back to their old regime. Mr. Bernstein. Exactly that. The democratic forces in Russia believed that the Bolsheviki movement was a counter revolutionary movement and that by its extremities it would drive the people into the arms of the other extreme. Senator Sterling. And all of those brave and courageous men and women who have been fighting against Czarism and autocracy for many, many years, whom they did not. murder, they drove from Russia? Mr. Bernstein. Yes; most of them are either exiled now or in hiding. Some of them have been executed — those that I have men- tioned. Senator Steeling. They could not, by any stretch of the imagina- tion, be claimed to be reactionaries or supporters of the Tsar's regiine ? Mr. Bernstein. Well, they are known by their past lives and by their work as champions of Russian liberty. They have suffered for it; they have been imprisoned for it; they worked for it; and now 396 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. all these men and women have been classed by the Bolsheviki as ene- mies of the Russian people. Senator Steeling. The money probably came from Germany. Mr. Bernstein. At first they helped them. When they secured the printing presses themselves they needed no outside help. Senator Sterling. Were yon able to learn how much money Ger- many furnished Lenine when he came into Eussia ? Mr. Bernstein. No; I do not know that; but at the time I was in Russia in 1917, when the July riots took place and the first at- tempt was made by the Bolsheviki to overthrow Kerensky, the minister of justice at that time made public a certain number of documents showing that large sums were transmitted to the Bol- shevik leaders from Germany by way of Stockholm. Senator Steeling. Did they conceal the fact that Germany was financing them? Mr. Bernstein. I do not think the Bolsheviki concealed this. Their answer is, or has been, that they would have taken money for their purposes from anybody ; but the fact is that they did take it from Germany. Senator Nelson. When did you return from Siberia; last month? Mr. Bernstein. Yes; on the SOth of January. Senator Nelson. By way of Vladivostok? Mr. Bernstein. By way of Vladivostok. I went as far as it was possible to go — to the Czecho-Slovak front in the Ural Mountains, at Ekaterinburg, the headquarters of the Czecho-Slovaks. I traveled as far as the capital of the Ural, Ekaterinburg, the head- quarters of the Czecho-Slovaks. I have written a report embodying my observations and impressions concerning the expected readjust- ment of Siberia with allied aid. Perhaps my conclusions with regard to the present situation may be of interest in connection with this investigation. It seems to me that the time has come when the allies in Siberia should take an absolutely definite attitude. They should either leave Eussia entirely and let the Russians fight their own battles while Russia is working out her own salvation, absolutely without interference on the part of any foreign power, or the allies should, first of all, come to a clear understanding and definite agreement with regard to Russia, and really help her to establish order and or- ganize a democratic representative government through a national constituent assembly. If the allies leave Russia to herself just now, there is hardly any doubt in the minds of those who know conditions in Russia that the world will witness in that country a series of unprecedented whole- sale massacres, followed by years of intense strife and bloodshed, by years of terrible civil war, and by the spread of Bolshevism far be- yond the boundaries of Russia. If the allies determine upon a policy of active and effective aid they must create a situation under which the people of Russia could express themselves through a representative national assembly. Should the Russian people at such an assembly express themselves in favor of Bolshevik rule or in favor of monarchy, then there would be nothing else left to do but to let Russia have the govern- ment she wants — the government she deserves. But knowing Eus- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 397 sia, having studied the temper of the Russian people, especially dur- ing my three visits to Russia since the revolution, I feel certain that the Russian people would not choose either of these extx'emes. I be- lieve that the Russian people want true democracy, and the allies should assist them to establish such a democracy for the good of Eussia and the other nations as well. The longer our uncertainty -and inactivity in Russia continues, the nearer the restoration of a monarchy — and in Russia this means a reactionary, mediaeval tyranny — and the greater also the danger of Bolshevism, the fiercer the international bonfire which the Russian so-called com- munists have set ablaze. Bolshevism in Russia is the natural child of Tsarism and Kaiser- ism. Just as Kaiserism and Tsarism destroyed themselves, so will Bolshevism destroy itself in the end; but meanwhile we have a situation in Russia where most dangerous and daring criminals, even murderers, suiround themselves with the nalo of heroism and ideal- ism, calling themselves the saviors of the working classes, the bene- factors and reformers of the world, while they commit savage crimes upon a huge scale. Like Kaiserism, Bolshevism now seeks to dominate the world. Kaiserism and Bolshevism should have been fought simultaneously and ended in this war. If Bolshevism is not checked now intelli- gently. Avisely and energetically, this great war will have served merely as the prelude to the next war, that of the Bolsheviki, of Spartacus, against the world. The war for democracy has been fought and won, but so long as Russia is not readjusted the war is not over, no matter what the peace conference may decide. As long as Russia remains a storm center, the scene of bitter strife and civil war, the breeding place of a grave international menace, as long as 180,000,000 people are writhing in the agony of anarchistic and monarchistic Bolshevism, the war for the safety of the world and enduring peace is not yet concluded. For Bolshevism may gather strength, and, mobilizing the forces of hate. bitterness, ancl dissatisfaction, overrun the Avorld if proper measures are not now adopted without delay to disarm it in time by a wise policv of social justice and equitable peace. Unfortunately the interests of those who have sought to aid Rus- sia were not identical. Some were interested in seeing Siberia weak and disorganized, and these financed and encouraged in various ways the conflicts of several factions against one another. Others, inter- ested in a stronf Russia, unfortunately employed the wrong methods to solidify and "reorganize Russia. Senator Wolcott. IVIr. Bernstein, in the course of your statement you mentioned the fact that many of the people who had been. in comfortable circumstances in the past were forced to work on the street carrv bundles, act as porters, and so on, whereas the Bolshe- viki leaders were living in palaces, riding around in automobiles, and o-enerallv enjoying that kind of life which the very rich in the rest of the worlcl are able to enjoy. Now, I read an article in the "Good Housekeeping Magazine,'" of FebruaiT, this year, by one Harold Kelloek, entitled "Aunt Emmy wants, to know who is a Bol'-'hevi^t. and why ? " The editor states that he selected this au- thor to write this article from a list of, I think, nine persons sug- 398 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. gested to him by the Author's League of America, and that this author Senator Nelson (interposing). This league. Senator "Wolcott. No, this author, wlio Avas one of nine suggested by the Author's League to write on Bolshevism, got his information from Col. Raymond Robins, head of the American Red Cross mis- sion in Russia; the report of Maj. Thomas D. Thatch, and Col. Wil- liam B. Thompson, also of the mission; talked with Mr. Gregory Yarros, the Associated Press correspondent in Russia, recently re- turned, and various other correspondents ; and numerous docunients, official and semiofficial, that have come from Russia. There are two pai-agraphs here which created upon my mind the impression that the leaders of Bolshevism are living in a very modest wa}', a very plain and simple way, and are not grasping the opportunity to give themselves all the luxuries and the comforts that the so-called capitalists have been able to enjoy. I want to read you these two paragraphs and see what you have to say as to their accuracy in describing the manner of life of these men : Some remarkable personalities have been included among these commissars. They work for workmen's salaries 600 rubles (about $90) a month, with an extra allowance of 100 rubles for each dependent. Thus, Lenine, whose wife is employed in the department of education, gets 600 rubles ; and Trotzky, who has a wife and three children, gets 900 rubles. Both Lenine, and Tchitcherin, the commissars for foreign affairs, come of old and well-to-do Russian families. Trotzky is the son of a prosperous Jewish merchant. In Petrograd Trotzky and his family lived in a little garret room in Smolny Institute, the Soviet headquarters. Tchitcherin served as a diplomat under the Czar before he became a Revo; lutionary Socialist. While commissar of foreign affairs, in Petrograd, he lived in a shabby little lodging house in the working quarter, and members of the American Red Cross mission, who had occasion to call upon him at his office, would find him transacting affairs of state clad in a soiled sweater and baggy old trousers. Your statement of the Bolshevist leaders riding around in auto- mobiles and living in palaces arrested my attention, because of these paragraphs I have read from this district. Mr. Berx STEIN. Well, I have seen the manner in which they ride about in Petrograd and Moscow ; I saw the house in which Trotslcy lived in Moscow, when he moved from Petrograd to Moscow. It was a very fine, luxurious house. I traveled in the train from Mos- cow where the commissaries were my fellow passengers. They spoke Russian and they spoke of the fact that only the day before, on our trip, they had to confiscate 1-^ poods — that is, 60 pounds — of choco- late for Commissar Trotsky. Senator Nelson. Commissar who ? Mr. Bernstein. Trotsky. Senator Wolcott. Sixty pounds of chocolate for Mr. Trotsky. Mr. Bernstein. The fact that they have been using cars used by the royal family before is well known. Senator Wolcott. And the automobiles. Senator Overman. And private cars on the railroad? Mr. Bernstein. Private cars on the railroads, and automobiles. Senator Wolcott, They confiscated these things? Mr. Bernstein. For themselv^. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 399 Senator Wolcott (continuing). These luxurious things, for the state. Taking them over for the people — for the state — in its essence amounted to taking them over for themselves? Mr. Bernstein. For themselves, when the children of Eussia could not get any food. Senator Wolcott. Now, this article I have read, so far as it tends to create the impression that these are very plain, simple-living people running this Bolshevik thing over there, you would say is not correct at all? Mr. Bernstein. Well, I would say that the statements are not correct ; that they were probably given to him by people who were prejudiced in favor of the Bolsheviki. It was impossible to draw any more than perhaps 150 rubles a month from a bank ; that is, from the accounts that people had there before the banks were nationalized. It was necessary but to give from 15 to 20 per cent to the commissar in charge of those banksj and they could get any sum they wanted, and I was told that in one instance they got a larger sum than they had there by giving the commissar one-half of it. Senator Wolcott. You could overdraw your account if you would divide the loot with the commissar? Senator Nelson. When did you first go to Russia? Mr. Bernstein. When' did I first go to Russia? I came from Eussia 25 years ago to America. Senator Nelson. I mean since the war began. Mr. Bernstein. Since the war I was in Eussia. I went to Eussia in May, 1917, when the Brest-Litovsk treaty was being consummated. Senator Nelson. When Mr. Kerensky was in power? Mr. Bernstein. When Kerensky was in power. I came back in November and went again in February when the Lenine-Trotsky gov- ernment — so-called government — was established. Senator Overman. You were bom and raised in Eussia? Mr. Bernstein. I was born and raised in Eussia. Senator Nelson. What part of Eussia ? Mr. Bernstein. In the part called " White Eussia " on the Dnieper and Dniester. I was educated there. Senator Nelson. In your visits to Eussia what points did you visit over there? Mr. Bernstein. During the Kerensliy regime I was in Moscow and Petrograd and neighboring places there, and Finland, and I visited these places also during the Bolshevik regime. Senator Nelson. Did you go anywhere into south Eussia — in the Ukraine? Mr. Bernstein. Not this time. I was in the Ukraine before the war. Now it is almost impossible to travel there. It is very diffi- cult, I mean. Going from Petrograd to Moscow is achieving a great feat, because one takes his life into his hands just now. Senator Nelson. Now, you came back on the Siberian Eailroad in November or December last ? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. I went to Siberia in the early part of Sep- tember and left Vladivostok on the 24th of December. Senator Nelson. How far Avest did you go on the Siberian Eail- road ? 400 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Bernstein. I crossed as far as the capital of the Urals, as far as it was possible to go. Senator Nelson. As far as Moscow ? Mr. Bernstein. Oh, I could not go to Moscow. Senator Nelson. Did you go to Perm? Mr. Bernstein. No. Perm was at that time in the hands of the Bolsheviki. Senator Nelson. Coming back on the Siberian railroad, who were in possession of that railroad then, who controlled it from the Ural Mountains to Vladivostock ? Mr. Bernstein. Practically, the Czecho-Slovaks are in control of this railroad up to Irkutsk; and then the Japanese; and further down, the Americans. Senator Nelson. Yes. Senator Overman. Mr. Bernstein, have you observed, since your return, any propaganda in this country by the Bolsheviki, and the extent of itf Please give to us, in your own way, what yoti have on that. Mr. Bernstein. Yes ; I have noticed that. There have appeared in a large number of newspapers and magazines statements of facts with regard to Eussia, misrepresentations as to the beauty of the Bolsheviki regime, by men who were in Russia at about the same time I was; so that I know these things- are not true, because I have seen. I was in Russia about the same time. I could speak to the people without the aid of an interpreter ; I could read the press with- out the aid of an interpreter; I could speak to all representatives in various shades of the political parties, representatives of the political parties, so that I could get my information at first hand; and I find that there is a systematic campaign of misrepresentation in this country with regard to the Bolsheviki. Senator Overman. Did you ever interview Lenine? Mr. Bernstein. No ; it was impossible to do that. He was hiding at the time — he was afraid to see representatives of the press. Senator Nelson. Did you interview Trotsky? ^Ir. Bernstein. I interviewed Trotsky on. the day they ratified the Brest-Litovsk peace treaty. Senator Nelson. By that treaty, among other things, they sur- rendered a lot of gold to Germany, did they not ? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Nelson. $200,000,000? Mr. Bernstein. More than that. Senator Nelson. More than that? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Nelson. Of the gold that belonged to Russia? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Nelson. And by the terms of the armistice that was to be given back? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Nelson. And then they surrendered a lot of provinces? Mr. Bernstein. Oh, yes; they surrendered Senator Nelson. Finland and Esthonia and Livonia and the I^kraine, and nearly all of the Baltic shore except Petrograd, did thev not? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 401 Mr. Bernstein. Yes; they practically signed away the greater part of Kussia. Senator Nelson. Yes ; and a part of the country down around the Caucasus ? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Nelson. It was evident to you that that treaty was a com- plete give-away to Germany, was it not? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. On the opening of the peace conference at Brest-Litovsk I wrote that the Kaiser was offering himself peace through the Bolsheviki. Later I found that that was so. Senator Overman. Do you know of any money coming to this country from the Bolsheviki for propaganda ? Mr. Bernstein. I do not. Maj. Humes. Mr. Bernstein, what can you tell us about the specific acts of violence and terrorism ? Mr. Bernstein. Well, one of the acts that attracted perhaps more attention than the others, although acts of violence no longer attract attention in Russia, because they are common, everyday occurrences, was, first of all, the murder of two of the greatest revolutionary leaders, both of them members of the constituent assembly, both of them members of the constitutional democratic party, people who had devoted all their lives to the betterment of conditions in Russia, especially the betterment of the conditions of the peasantry, and the poor. These men were members of the Kerensky government. One was minister of finance, Shingaryov, a well-lmown physician, and he was first thrown into the prison of Peter and Paul, and then when he took sick he and his friend and associate, Kokoshik, also a member of the constituent assembly, were removed to the hospital. Shortly after they were removed to the hospital. Red Guards and sailors entered the hospital at night and while they were asleep they murdered them both, and took some of their clothing away. The press, of the country that was still not suppressed began to protest, and people began to arrange demonstrations and protests. Lenine issued a statement that he wanted the thing investigated — ^this mur- (Jer — and he wanted reports sent to him every day as to the progress of the case. The fact is that in Moscow and Petrograd everybody knows who the murderers were ; that they were soldiers and sailors who said that they did only what their leaders had ordered them to do ; that they executed and put to death the enemies of the people because they were opposed to the Bolsheviki. Now, although everybody Jmows the names of the murderers, Lenine or Trotsky have not punished them in any way. The second case that attracted attention all through Russia was this: There were six young men who were on the eve of leaving Russia to go to France to join the French Army to fight for the allies, and before their departure a banquet was given to these six men. They were to leave on the following day. At that banquet about 30 Red Guards broke into the house, and under the charge that they were counter revolutionists they took the six men out that night. The woman who was the mother of the girl that arranged this ban- quet and who was a well-known Red Cross worker, said that she would go with them. She wanted to know what would happen to 85723—19 26 402 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. them. They allowed her to go to Smolny Institute, the headquarters of the Bolsheviki GoTernment. Then they sent her away and the six men without any trial were executed — shot. Three of them were the sons of a French professor who had lived in Petrograd for 30 years, and was a teacher at one of the Petrograd universities, and his three sons were going to France to fight for France. Senator Nelson. Another one of the acts of the Kerensky govern- ment was to pardon all criminals and all political exiles? Mr. Bernsteix. Not all criminals, but all political exiles. Senator Nelson. And a lot of the criminals, too ? Mr. Bernstein. You see at that time it was very diificult to say who were exiled for political reasons, so that a number of criminals found it to their advantage to claim to be political exiles, therefore manj' who had no connection with the revolutionary movement re- turned to Eussia, and in many instances the consulates of the old Eussian Government that still had no faith in the revolution, helped anybody to come there and sent them to Eussia, hoping that they would disrupt Eussia, and in that way the old Government would be able to return to power. ' Senator Nelson. And this element that returned under this par- doning power became an element from which the Bolsheviki re- ■ cruited their forces, became a part of the Eed Army? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Now. the Eed Army is perhaps the best paying proposition in Eus- sia to-day. They pay so well to any one joining the Army and they pay each one for any city or any town that they would take, I mean they make an offer of a prize for acts of brutality and acts of cour- age of that kind, and many of the unemployed have joined the Army because that pays better than anything else in Eussia just now. Senator Nelson. Do you not think that it was one of the mistakes of the Kerensky Government? Mr. Bernstein. The Eed Army was not organized Senator Nelson. No ; I mean opening the door to all of those peo- ple and bringing those elements back. Do you not think that was one of the things that undermined the Kerensky government? Mr. Bernstein. Well, there were many mistakes. Kerensky was a great idealist, and he could not believe that people who called them- selves political exiles or revolutionists or socialists would come and overthrow the freedom which Eussia had secured. But he was not prime minister at the time this happened. He was minister of jus- tice, and as minister of justice he issued the first decree liberating the political exiles and prisoners in Siberia, and it was this decree that liberated Madame Breshkovskaya, who testified here, and others of that type, and he looked upon all as upon Madame Breshkovskaya. Senator Nelson. He let out a lot of the criminals? Mr. Bernstein. He let out a lot of the criminals, but just as politi- cal offenders. You see, for instance, Trotsky was in this country and returned after the revolution to Eussia. "He was detained by the British authorities at Halifax. They suspected him ; that is they be- lieved that they had proof that he was going there to preach a sepa- rate peace. They detained him there for several weeks. Then there was a great movement in Eussia asking for his liberation. They ap- pealed to the minister of foreign affairs in Eussia, who at that time BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 403 was Miliukov, a constitutional democrat, a very conservative liberal, and it was he who asked the British Government to release Trotsky. I mean that Kerensky had no connection with this because he was minister of justice, while Miliukov was minister of foreign affairs. Senator Nelson. But the outcome of liberating all those classes furnished some of the means that undermined the Kerensky gov- ernment? Mr. Bernstein. Yes; I think if all these political exiles had been allowed to return a year or two after the revolution, after the gov- ernment had' stabilized itself, Russia would be now a democratic and well-organized government. Senator Overman. Do you know what has become of Kerensky? Mr. Bernstein. I understand that he is in London now. Senator Overman. Do you know what became of Gen. Nicholas, the grand duke? Mr. Bernstein. Grand Duke Nicholas? Senator Overman. Yes. Mr. Bernstein. I understand he is somewhere in the South of Russia — in Crimea. Senator Nelson. Down in the Caucasus? Mr. Bernstein. Crimea. Senator Nelson. Well, now, Mr. Bernstein, you are well posted about this, and I would like to hear your views as to what you think we ought to do in this country — you have stated it partly — what we ought to do both in respect to Russia and in respect to protecting our own people? Mr. Bernstein. Well, of course, these are very difficult problems at the present moment. It would have been so easy, it seems to me, to adjust the problem of Russia about eight or nine months ago. So many mistakes have been made, not only by Kerensky, but by others, at the time Kerensky was in power. But now I think the only way to adjust Russia is to create a situa- tion by which Russia can express herself as a representative Gov- ernment. Senator Nelson. Do you not think that it is the duty of the allies to help them to organize a constitutional government there? Mr. Bernstein. I think it is. Senator Nelson. And do you not think that if we do not help them, chaos will reign for many years? Mr. Bernstein. Absolutely. Senator Nelson. And do you not think further, Mr. Bernstein, that unless something is done, Russia will be a sort of ground on which Germany can carry on her commercial and political propa- ganda ? It will leave the door open for Germany to exploit Russia, unless we help them to restore a stable government? Mr. Bernstein. Absolutely. I think it is in the interest of the whole world that a representative and democratic form of govern- ment be established in Russia. Senator Nelson. While Germany inspired this Bolshevik jjropa- ganda in Russia, and fed it in the first instance, it is now proving to Germany herself to be a kicking gun, is it not? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. 404 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. _ Senator Nelson. She is getting some of the benefit of the Bolshe- vik system? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. I said in 1917 at the Jersey Teachers' Con- vention, at Atlantic City, that Kaiser Wilhelm the Second was the greatest Bolshevik in history, and would be remembered as Kaiser Wilhelm the Last; that he was helping the organization of a move- ment that would eventually destroy him. Although, as I pointed out. I think that the horrible example they have set in Eussia, by ruining Eussia, has retarded in that way the revolution in Germany, and has also made it impossible for the extremists to get control of the Gov- ernment there. Senator Nelson. Now, Mr. Bernstein, as I understand it, about 75 or 80 per cent of the population of Eussia are peasants — what you call peasants? Mr. Bj;rnstein. Yes. Senator Nelson. And their disposition on the whole is not frendly to the Bolshevik government, is it? Mr. Bernstein. No; they are opposed to the Bolshevik govern- ment, but they are not actively and energetically opposed to it thus far for the reason that the Bolshevik government has not been able to collect any taxes from the peasants and therefore the peasants have not been actively opposing them. In one instance, in one of the Kus- sian village, an attempt was made by Eed Guards to collect a large sum from a community, and they held a meeting there and proposed to tax the peasants, but; the peasants declined to give them the silm they wanted. Then the Eed Guards were going to use force. The result was that the 30 men who came to collect the taxes never re- turned from that village. They were buried in the square. Senator Nelson. Do you not think that when the Bolshevik at- tempt to commandeer or requisition the grain and the provisions of the peasants, they will be against it ? Mr. Bernstein. Oh, yes. I mean that they can not continue very long. I think that if the Bolsheviki had known that there was a definite policy among all the civilized Governments of the allies that there should be a representative and democratic government in Eus- sia, they would have collapsed long ago, but because they noticed a certain hesitation, and perhaps a lack of unity in the policy of the allies, they have gained strength in that way; and they have also gained strength by the fact that in Siberia, for instance, the gov- ernment that was perhaps the most representative since the revolu- tion, the government known as the all-Eussian government, headed by a directorate of five, headed by the president, Avxentieff, who was also the president of the all-Eussian council of peasants before that government, was overthrown by the dictator Kolchak. Senator Nelson. He is an admiral? Mr. Bernstein. Admiral Kolchak; yes. And the bolsheviki used that as an excuse for fighting Siberia and that element, by saying that they were fighting counter-revolutionary monarchistic elements. They say that the dictatorship of Kolchak is a monarchistic dicta- torship, and therefore they have been able to gain strength among their followers by saying they are fighting for the revolution against monarchists. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 405 Senator Nelson. What is the attitude of the Cossacks as a class ? Mr. Bernstein. The Cossacks were loyal to the all-Eussian rep- resentative government. I am speaking now of Siberia. But re- cently because a dictator was chosen, this Admiral Kolchak, and be- cause is was brought about in so clumsy and so unjust a way, the other Cossack leaders are eager to be dictators themselves in dif- ferent territories which they control. Senator Nelson. They are not friendly to the Bolshevik govern- ment ? Mr. Bernstein. Oh, no ; they are not. Senator Nelson. That is what I mean. They are not inclined to join them? Mr. Bernstein. No ; they are not. Senator Overman. Why is it, Mr. Bernstein, history shows always that in such conditions of tragedy and chaos there has always arisen some great leader who could rally around him enough of the patriots to overturn such a government. Why can not that be done by the Grand Duke, or some other man ? Mr. Bernstein. Well, you see Russia was oppressed for many centuries and there has been no room for real popular leadership, and when Kerensky came to power he was, perhaps, the most popu- lar — ^he was the most popular — man at the time ; but many blunders were made then even by the friends of Russia. Many people did not realize that the Bolsheviki would be in position to overthrow the provisional government. He did not realize it himself. At the time he was prime minister Trotsky was in prison, and he released him on 3,000 rubles bail, which is $300, about. And, of course, the Bolshe- viki overthrew the Kerensky government on the eve of the trial of the Bolsheviiri, at which all the documents were to be brought out connecting them with the German Imperjal Government. Senator Overman. And feeling the sadness and recklessness among the people, they have about given up and surrendered to this Bol- sheviki movement? Mr. Bernstein. I think, as far as I could judge, there is great bitterness against them; but the Russian people are exhausted and disorganized. Senator Overman. I do not suppose they have any arms? Mr. Bernstein. And the Bolshevik groups had the assistance of experts in arms. They were helped by German officers to overthrow the Government, and they have succeeded since then in getting con- trol of most of the firearms, machine guns, and so forth, and that is how they have been able to gain the control of Russia. Senator Overman. They have practically taken all the arms from the people ? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Nelson. All the arms and ammunition are under the con- trol of the Bolsheviki, are they? Mr. Bernstein. Oh, yes. Senator Nelson. What is the feeling there — is there much feel- ing — against the Japanese in the country, and is there feeling against their troops coming into the country ? Mr. Bernstein. There was a feeling of fear. That feeling has been there ever since the Russo-Japanese War, and they feared that the Japanese intentions were to establish themselves in Siberia. But, 406 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. of course, that has been changed, especially since the armistice has been signed. I notice that if there were any other intentions on the part of Japan, Japan has changed her attitude toward Russia, and she has withdrawn. Senator Nelson. And they have been withdrawing their troops? Mr. Bernstein. They have been withdrawing their troops. Senator Nelson. Back to Vladivostok. Mr. Bernstein. I suppose in agreement with the allied policy. Senator Nelson. What is the feeling toward our people there, among the people ? Mr. Bernstein. Where there is no artificially created hatred against America, such as has been spread by the Bolsheviki, America •is the best-loved and most trusted of all countries, of all democracies in the world, in Eussia. Senator Nelson. Do you not think that if Kerensky had had sense enough to keep Lenine and Trotsky out of the country, his govern- ment would have survived ? Mr. Bernstein. It seems that that is so. Senator 0\terman. The Bolsheviki, you say, are spreading propa- ganda of hatred against this country ? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. I have here a newspaper that was published by the Bolsheviki, in the German language. Senator Nelson. Where? Mr. Bernstein. Published in Petrograd, for distribution in the German trenches. It is both in the Russian and the German lan- guage. It is the organ of the international Soviets of the soldiers' and workmen's and peasants' deputies, and the first page of it con- tains a vile attack on the President of the United States, especially in connection with his Senator Nelson. Have you a translation? Mr. Bernstein. I have a translation which I can read. Capt. Lester. What is the date? Mr. Bernstein. January 16, 1918. On January 16 the Peace of the Nations, the oflGtcial organ of the Soviets of workmen, soldiers', and peasants' deputies, published in German for distribution in the Ger- man trenches an attack on President Wilson and his message of January 8 — that is, the speech in which the 14 points were mentioned. The paper first quotes the following from the President's speech : It Is the voice of the Russian people. They are prostrate and all but helpless, it would seem, before the grim power of Germany, which has hitherto known no relenting and no pity. Their power, apparently, is shattered. And yet their soul is not subservient. They will not yield either in principle or in action. Their conviction of what is right, of what is humane and honorable for them to accept, has been stated with a franlmess, a largeness of view, a generosity of spirit, and a universal human sympathy which must challenge the admiration of every friend of mankind, and they have refused to compound their ideals or desert others that they themselves may be safe. It then continues : Thus spoke recently Citizen Woodrow Wilson, the Executive of American capital. Senator Nelson. Of "American capital " ? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. [Reading:] Mr. Wilson is obliged to admit that the fight of the Russian delegation is undoubtedly animated with the sincere desire to obtain a general peace — BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 407 That is, with regard to the Brest-Litovsk peace conference— on the basis of national self-determination, " Not selfish aims, but the com- mon weal of humanity " have the delegates of the soviet government in view, declares the President of the United States. And he hastens to add that as a result the entire sympathy of the American people is with the " noble Russian revolution." Of course, we do not for a moment entertain the slightest doubt concerning the true value of the compliments of the representative of the American stocl£ exchange. We have no faith in the friendship and the noble sentiments of the servitor of American capital, who " in the name of peace " furnished Europe — the allies as well as their enemies — for three years with all the means necessary for war and the annihilation of men. We know that Wilson is the representative of the American ipiperialistic dictatorship, which strikes with imprisonment, forced labor, and the death penalty those workers and the poor who are opposed to the war and the ideas of government, Morgan, Rockefeller & Co. In the words of the most notorious diplomatic rope dancer one finds without trouble the old mottoes of war to the bitter end, of exploitation under the. mask of self-determination of nations and disguised demands for indemnities. There is nothing surprising in this, for Wilson is just Wilson, and seeks to cover up with words his real opinions. However that be, the admission of Mr. Wilson shows that the American bourse considers it not only necessary to reckon with the power of the Bolsheviki, but also. In any case, to make obeisance to it. This naturally does not prevent the American ambassador to favor — perhaps even to-morrow — the participation of the agent of the American invasion in the counter-revolutionary conspiracy against the power of the Soviets. But only if this is done not officially but publicly. Publicly the American Government not only does not break with revolu- tionary Russia, the Soviets, but even makes avowals of sentiments of friendship for her and readiness for "a common fight for peace." This admission has been reached through the fight of the revolutionary power of the Soviets, by that method the Governments have been forced to make public answer concerning their war aims and to count with the attitude of their own people. At the same time the undoubted fact of the growth and consolidation of the power of the Soviets (the workers' and soldiers' deputies' councils) in Russia must needs deepen the contrast between the interests of the various im- perialistic robbers. There can be no doubt that In no case can America admit the exaggerated exertions (ambitions) of England or of Japan. The stubborn rivalry of America with the young imperialism of the Bast and the growing conflict with English hegemony appears, therefore, as one of the grounds for Wilson's atti- tude, which no doubt aims to set limits to the appetites of Japan and Britain. Senator Oa^erman. You have thrown very much light on this sub- ject and we are obliged to you. Senator Wolcott. Just a moment. Do you know anything of the so-called policy of the nationalization of women by the Bolsheviki ? ■ Mr. Beenstein. Yes, I have heard their project. It was published in one of the newspapers. Senator Wolcott. Is that a publication of what purports to be the official attitude of the Bolsheviki? Mr. Bernstein. That was the plan, but I think it was not adopted. I have seen that published as a project: I had that Saratov news- paper, but I have not seen that they adopted any of those sugges- tions. Senator Wolc»tt. The newspaper to which you refer was pub- lished by the Bolsheviki? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Wolcott. It was an official organ, so to speak, was it? 408 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Bernstein. Yes ; it was. You see at the present moment no other newspapers are permitted to appear. First of all the Bol- sheA'iki devised a novel waj' of killing newspapers. They Mlled them off by prohibiting anybody to advertise in newspapers that were not official organs of the Bolsheviki. Nobody under any cir- cumstances is allowed to insert any advertisements in newspapers that are not official organs of the Bolshevik government. That is first. They have, secondly, been suppressing any organs of the press that appeared without advertisements but that in any way criticized or censured their activities. Senator Xelson. They have suppressed all papers except Bolshe- vik papers? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Xelson. And. practically, you can say that all the papers that are published now are their organs? Mr. Bernstein. They are their own organs or organs that are servile to them. Senator Wolcott. At any rate, they are organs that express views that do not displease the Bolsheviki. Mr. Bernstein. They are organs that are not permitted to teU the truth as to what is happening at the present moment in Russia. Senator Overman. What is their position on the subject of re- ligious freedom? Mr. Bernstein. They tried to separate the church from the state, and they did it very crudely and very cruelly by attacking some of the priests during religious services; and later, when they saw there was a strong religious movement growing up in various parts of the country, that is opposed to Bolshevism, they changed their tactics and they ceased to enforce that decree against the church. Senator Nelson. The Russian church was a state church? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Nelson. The authorities of that church, the leading men in it, are not friendly to the Bolsheviki, are they ? Mr. Bernstein. No; the church is absolutely unfriendly to the Bolsheviki. Senator Nelson. Do you not think that the church will be one of the rallying points in restoring order there? Mr. Bernstein. The church could be one of the rallying points, I think. . Senator Nelson. Take the church and the Cossacks and the peas- ants. Mr. Bernstein. I think that the people, if only given an oppor- tunity to express themselves, will express themselves so that every- body will know that they are opposed to the Bolsheviki. Senator Nelson. Did you observe the operations of the Duma while it was in existence? Mr. Bernstein. During the Tsar's regime; yes. I interviewed many of the members of the Duma. I interviewed many of the mem- bers of the Tsar's cabinet at the time of the Duma in 1908, 1909, and 1911. Senator Nelson. Did they exhibit any legislative capacity or legis- lative instinct — any capacity as legislators? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 40& Mr. Bernstein. They did. They were, of course, hampered and interfered with at that time. I think that they have the ability to govern themselves. But, unfortunately, a situation has been created where a small group was helped by a great militaristic power to gain control over the majority of the people by armed force. Senator Nelson. Do you not think that for the Russian people the best form of government would be a limited monarchy, something akin to that of Great Britain or the Scandinavian countries, with a responsible ministry. That is, they are hardly ripe and fit for a rep- resentative form of government such as we have, are they? Mr. Bernstein. I think that Russia will readjust herself as a re- publican state or a republican federation of states, something along the line of the United States. Senator Nelson. With a president ? Mr. Bernstein. With a president. Senator Nelson. You think that ? Mr. Bernstein. Oh, yes; I think that as soon as Senator Nelson. Or something like France ? Mr. Bernstein. Or something like France. Senator Overman. Did you know Eazputin? Mr. Bernstein. I did not know him, but I knew a great deal about him. Senator Nelson. Was he really in tbe control of Germany, as is claimed ? Mr. Bernstein. Well, his influence over the Tsar was used by Ger- man agents in Russia, and in that way, of course, he exerted that German influence on the court. Senator Nelson. Stiirmer was a friend of the Germans? Mr. Bernstein. He was. Senator Nelson. And Protopopov ; he was a friend of Germany ? Mr. Bernstein. Yes; he was advocating peace with Germany all along. Senator Nelson. Even before the Kerensky government? Mr. Bernstein. That was, to a great extent, the cause of the revo- lution. Senator Nelson. Had not the Germans encamped on the Russian Government under the Tsar before the Kerensky revolution had really got control of it? Mr. Bernstein. For more than half a century the most responsible men in the various government departments were Germans. Senator Nelson. Germans or of German descent ? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Overman. I have read something, it seems to me, about spiritualism — that the people in the court believed in spiritualism. Mr. Bernstein. Yes; they were religious mystics; and the Russian Tsar, especially, believed in fortune-telling and spiritualism, and he had about six or seven who influenced the policies, both internal and foreign of the government through these fortune-tellers and spirit- ualists. . Senator Overman. I have read that that prevailed with the Kaiser, too. I do not know. Mr. Bernstein. Perhaps. That is peculiar. 410 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. Senator Overman. And it prevailed among many of the crowned heads of Europe. Mr. Bernstein. Yes. _ Maj. Humes. You referred to having seen the decree that was pub- lished in the Saratov newspaper? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Maj. Humes. Is the Izvestija, a newspaper published in Petrograd, the official organ of the soviet? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Maj. Humes. Have you seen the decree on the subject of women that was printed in that paper? Mr. Bernstein. I have not read that. Maj. Humes. But that was its official organ? Mr. Bernstein. The Izvestija is the official organ; yes. Maj. Humes. But you did not see published there the decree which provided that a girl having reached her eighteenth year is to be announced as the property of the state ? Mr. Bernstein. Well, I read the decree in the Saratov renspaper. Maj. Humes. I am speaking of the one in the Izvestija. Mr. Bernstein. I have not seen it. I have not seen it in the origi- nal Russian. Senator Wolcott. Referring again to the article in Good House- keeping, which I mentioned awhile ago, I want to call your attention to a photograph of two women who seem to be drinking soup or tea, or something. Are they Russian in their costume and the general makeup of that picture? Mr. Bernstein. Yes; they" look like Russian women. Maj. Humes. Did you ever see any cups like that in Russia? Mr. Bernstein. Perhaps in some of the old women's homes they have those costumes, but, of course, I could not tell whether they are Russians or not. Senator Wolcott. Do you know Harold Kellock, who wrote this article ? Mr. Bernstein. I do not know him personally. Senator Wolcott. If you will permit me, I just want to call your attention to certain things appearing in here. This committee pri- marily is interested in the appearance of anything in the nature of propaganda in this country in favor of Bolshevism. This article is headed by this note, which I assume is written by the editor : We read a lot about Bolshevism in Russia, the mass of whose people we think of as being like these war refugees, but do we really know what it means — and whether we want it here? Mr. Kellock is thoroughly familiar with the subject and tells here just what it means to lie a Bolshevist. Are you one — in your heart? Read lief ore you answer. Mr. Bernstein. Well, judging from the sources where he gathered his information, I would expect that he would advocate Bolshevism, because I understand that Mr. Raymond Robins was looked upon by Bolshevist leaders as the American representative or ambassador in Russia. Some of them have told me that they regarded him as such. Senator Oatirman. I wish you would repeat that with regard to Raymond Robins. Mr. Bernstein. They looked upon him as the American ambassa- dor to Russia. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 411 Senator Wolcott. Then they did not recognize Mr. Francis? Mr. Bernstein. No ; they did not recognize Mr. Francis. Senator Wolcott. One of the other sources of information he mentions here is Col. Thompson. Do you know anything about his relations with the Bolsheviki? Mr. Bernstein. Well, Col. Thompson, I understand, favored at one time the Kerensky regime and was endeavoring to help it in every way possible, but when Kerensky was overthrown he remained ia Russia for a short while, and then I understand he met some of the Bolshevik leaders, and he was willing to help them; and then he published a series of interviews here, which I understand were later brought out in pamphlet form translated into Russian, and I can tell you from my knowledge in Russia that the interviews published by Col. Thompson in this country and brought back to Russia have done more harm and have helped more to spread Bolshevism than that which has been done by any American advocating Bolshevism, because they said, "Here is what an American millionaire says about Bolshevism." Senator Wolcott. It is a wonder they would believe a millionaire, he being a capitalist. Mr. Bernstein; Well, a millionaire who is with them is a good millionaire. Senator Wolcott. Do you know about Mr. Thacher, another source of his information? Mr. Bernstein. I do not know. Senator Wolcott. Do you know Mr. Gregory Yarros, the Asso- ciated Press correspondent in Russia, who is another source of his information ? Mr. Bernstein. I knew Gregory Yarros before he went to Russia. I have not read any of his articles about Russia, and I do not know what his views are, or whether his views are authoritative. Senator Overman. Is it your opinion that Raymond Robins is in sympaSiy with the Bolsheviki, from what you have seen and observed ? Mr. Bernstein. Yes, absolutely. I understand he has been advo- cating here the recognition of the Bolshevik government, under the name of the Soviets. Senator Nelson. Do you know anything of Albert Rhys Williams? Mr. Bernstein. I understand that he says he is a representative of the Bolsheviki in this country. Senator Nelson. How ? Mr. Bernstein. I understand he admits he is a representative of the Bolsheviki in this country. Senator Nelson. He admits it, does he? Senator Wolcott. Well, he held an official position over there, did he not? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Nelson. Was he employed by the Bolshevik government over there and did he hold a position under them? Mr. Bernstein. As far as I know, he was a member of their propa- gandist committee over there. Senator Wolcott. Then, he was the head for a while of the Bureau of International Revolutionary Propaganda? 412 . BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. And he used to carry on the propaganda largely in this counti-y, did he not ^ Mr. Berxsteix. Yes. Senator Xelson. Do you know from what source he gets his revenues i Mr. Bernstein. No; that I do not know. Senator Wolcott. Are the industries going along and moving and busy in Russia now ? Mr. Bernstein. "Well, thej; were not at the time I was there. Senator "Wolcott. Are you speaking of last December, when you left? Mr. Bernstein. If you mean Siberia, or the part controlled by the Bolsheviki, I was in Petrograd and Moscow in May, and I am just coming back from the other part of Russia that has been liberated by the Czecho-Slovaks from the Bolshevist rule. Senator Wolcott. But in the part of Russia under the control of the Bolsheviki, is it fair to say Mr. Bernstein. The industries were at a standstill, practically. Senator Wolcott. In this article I have referred to I find this statement, and the author is a bit cautious in the statement, I note. He says : It is likely that most o£ the industries in Eussia to-day are still under private control, but profits are limited by the government, and committees of workers share in the management. The material thing I would like to know is whether they are run- Mr. Bernstein. Judging from his sources of information, he could not get any later information than I had, because Col. Raymond Rob- ins left Russia at about the same time that I did. Senator Wolcott. And Col. Thompson had gone before him ? Mr. Bernstein. Had gone ; yes, sir. So that he is simply making statements that I know are inaccurate. Senator WoLCorr. This statement is inaccurate? Mr. Beenstein. Yes. Senator Wolcott. Now, let me read you this paragraph : The general soviet idea is to make the wealth and productivity of the nation the heritage of all the people instead of a few. Production is organized in the interest of the general needs, instead of for profit. To this end ambitious plans have been projected, such as harnessing the Volga and other rivers to furnish light and power for the cities. Extensive irrigation projects are planned. A systematic control of production has been introduced. Thus, instead of 40 dif- ferent types of plows produced in Russia under individual enterprise, the num- ber has been reduced to 7 normal types. Government purchase of necessary im- ports has been designed on a great scale to eliminate speculation. Half a billion rubles were voted last spring to purchase cotton from Turkestan. Similar appropriations have been made for the import of wool, farming implements, and textiles. The number of cooperative stores has increased remarkably. There were over 30,000 last fall. That is a statement of plans and a statement of some existing facts. With respect to the things that are planned and projected, have any of them materialized, or is it simply all paper stuff ? Mr. Beenstein. They have been publishing and making decrees every day. The newspapers are full of decrees, and the people stopped reading them, even though they could not tell whether some of these decrees affected them directly. They had plans, many of them, daily, but most of them have not been put into effect. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 413 Senator Wolcott. It is all just intangible, filmy, imaginative stuff on paper? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Then, I know that the cooperative move- ment in Siberia, counting millions of members, was definitely opposed to the Bolsheviki. Senator Wolcott. He says here that the number of cooperative stores has increased remarkably and there were over 30,000 last fall. Do you know whether that is true or not — in the Bolshevik part of Eussia, I mean ? Mr. Bernstein. Well, I do not know about last fall. ^Senator Wolcott. Before that? 'Mr. Bernstein. It was not true in May, 191'8. Senator Wolcott. As a matter of fact, it could hardly be said that the stores were open at all, could it ? Mr. Bernstein. Well, the stores were open, but there was nothing in them to sell. Senator Wolcott. They had been looted, had they not, to a very large extent ? Mr. Bernstein. Most of the shops and stores in Petrograd were closed, or they had no goods to sell. Senator Wolcott. Let me read you this paragraph : The complete overtvirn of society in Russia lias, beyond doubt, caused tre- mendous confusion, and much hardship and bitterness among the " nicest " people. By the " nicest " people we mean, of course, the well-to-do people. For many of them there is no immediate place in the new order. Many of them have, no doubt, actually starved because they could find no place. Of course, powerful elements of the old order have resisted the new rfigime, and there has been fighting and bloodshed. A revolution is always terrible. In our Ameri- can Revolution some of our most respestable people — Tories — were chased into Canada and their property confiscated under a sort of mob rule. That sort of thing has been going on on a much larger scale in Russia. After the allied Invasion began, the so-called Red Terror broke out in many places, as it did during the French Revolution after a similar allied invasion. An infuriated populace in many cases turned on all persons suspected of complicity in bring- ing in the foreign armies. How far the Soviet leaders were Implicated in these outrages is a question. Is it true that it was only the " nicest " — using the term in the sense of meaning only the well-to-do — people who were caused hardship and bitterness ? Mr. Bernstein. I know this, that anybody who opposed the Bol- shevist form of tyranny, whether he was a professor, or a teacher, or a laborer, or a millionaire, was classed among the bourgeoisie, and therefore an enemy of society and of the people; but if anyone was willing to cooperate with them, whether he was a millionaire or a member of the old Tsar's government, an agent provacateur, or a member of the secret police department that had been hounding the revolutionists, he was welcomed and taken into their midst and could work for them. Senator Wolcott. Let us come to this specific question : The state- ment that this author has made here in this article is, according to your observation, by no means accurate? Mr. Bernstein. It is not accurate. Senator Wolcott. I notice he draws a parallel here between the manner in which the bolshevists treat these nicest people in Eussia and the manner in which the American patriots of Seventy- six treated the Tories here. Evidently he is attempting to dignify 414 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. the Bolshevik practices with respect to their opponents in Eussia by leading the readers of this magazine in America to believe that that is just what our American patriots of Seventy-six did. Is that a fair comparison ? Mr. Bernstein. That is deliberate Bolshevist propaganda. Senator Wolcott. That is what I am trying to get at ; that that is Bolshevist propaganda. Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Nelson. Senator, that is utterly untrue. It was only the men in this country who sided with the British who were forced into Canada. Senator "Wolcott. Tories. Senator Nelson. Yes, Tories; and not any of the American sol- diers. Senator Overman. There were not any of them forced into Canada. Senator Wolcott. I think, myself, that anybody who attempts to compare the practices of the American Kevolutionary soldiers with the practices of the Bolsheviki and put them on the same level is a Bolshevik sympathizer. Now, Mr. Bernstein, when did the so-called Red Terror break out in Russia? Mr. Bernstein. The Red Terror broke out from the day the Bol- sheviki seized the reins of government from Kerensky, in November, 1917. Senator Wolcott. Do you recall when the allies landed their troops up in the northern part of Russia, and also down at Vladivostok? Mr. Bernstein. I think it was some time in August. Senator Wolcott. Of 1918 ? Mr. Bernstein. Of 1918. Senator Wolcott. That was my recollection of the facts, but I wanted to check up my memory. Senator Nelson. Senator, may I interrupt you ? I understand this paper you are quoting from is one of the Hearst publications. Senator Wolcott. I do not know who publishes it. It is the Good Housekeeping Magazine. Senator Nelson. It is one of the Hearst publications ; is not that so? Mr. Bernstein. I do not know. Senator Wolcott. I do not know who publishes it, but I know it sounds kind of Bolsheviki to me. I want to quote this sentence here. Bearing in mind the historical sequence of events that I just brought out, from the beginning when the Red Terror broke out, and when the so-called allied intervention in Russia took place, it being in August, I want to read you this sentence : After the allied Invasion began — I take that to mean after the allies landed their troops, in August, 1918, or thereabouts — the so-called Red Terror broke out in many places, as it did during the French Eevolutlon after a similar allied invasion. Did it not break out long before that ? Mr. Bernstein. Well, the Red Terror broke out immediately the Bolsheviki came into power, in November, 1917. Then it was in- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 415 tensified greatly after the assassination of Count von Mirbach, the German ambassador, and the Bolsheviki commenced their real Eed Terror in order to avenge the German officials. Senator Wolcott. That was about when ? Mr. Bernstein. That was, I think, in July. Senator WoLCOTT. 1918? Mr. Bernstein. June or July, 1918. Senator Wolcott. Well, that was still before the so-called allied intervention ? Mr. Bernstein. Yes. Senator Wolcott. The significance of this paragraph Mr. Bernstein. Was to connect it with the allied intervention. Senator Wolcott. And, furthermore, to put it on a parallel with the breaking out of the Reign of Terror in France when the Austrians started their invasion of France in the time of the French Revolu- tion under, as I recall it, the Duke of Brunswick, when the foreign armies came into France, in the French Revolution, and the French people rose to meet that foreign army. Then it was, as I recall my history, that the Marseillaise was born, in going to meet that host of foreign invaders. This sentence conveys to my mind the impres- sion that what the Bolsheviki did there in that reign of terror was only parallel to what the Frenchmen did when they went to meet the Austrian invaders under the Duke of Brunswick, whereas the historical sequence of events was just the reverse, in that there was a reign of Red Terror in Russia, and then the allies came in after that in order to protect their supplies, and the invasion of the allies was not what incited the Red Terror at all. Mr. Bernstein. Not only that, but it was in response to a demand on the part of the better elements of the Russian people for help from the reign of terror which was going on there. The only thing is that perhaps the intervention was not sufficiently coordinated to be as effective as it might have been. Senator Wolcott. I have not any doubt in my mind but what that article was written by a man who sympathizes with the Bolsheviki, and is trying to compare this Bolshevik business with the great events of history which were real, genuine movements of real patriots — of America in the one case and France in the other. Senator Nelson. Maj. Humes, what do you know about that paper? Maj. Humes. Mr. Moore, who represents the Hearst periodicals, testified that it was one of the magazines owned and controlled by Hearst, one of the Hearst magazines. (Thereupon, at 12.50 o'clock p. m., a recess was taken until 2.30 o'clock p. m.) - (A letter printed in the New York Evening Post, referred to in the testimony of Mr. Bernstein, is here printed in the record, as follows:) Aechanqel, September 10, 191S. Santeei Nuobteva, Pitchburg, Mass. Deab Comeade : I deem it my duty to appeal, to you and to other comrades over in America in order to be able to make clear to you the trend of events here The situation here has become particularly critical. We, the Finnish refu- gees who, after the unfortunate revolution, had to flee from Finland to Russia, 416 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. find ourselves today in a very tragic situation. A part of tlie former Red Guardists who fled here have Joined the Red Army formed by tlie Russijin Soviet Government, another part has formed itself as a special Finnish legion, allied with the army of the Allied countries, and a third part, whicli lias gone as far as to Siberia, is prowling about there diffu.sed over many .sections of the country, and there have been reports that a part of those Finns have joineil tbe ranks of the Czecho-Slovaks. The Finnish masses, thus divided, may there- fore at any time get into fighting each other, which indeed would be the greatest of all misfortunes. It is. therefore, necessary to take a clear position, and to make all the Finns to support it, and we liope that you, as well, over in America will support it as much as is in your power. During tbese, my wanderings, I have happened to traverse Russia from one ■end to another, and I have seen tbe whole misfortune into which Russia now has fallen, and I have become deeply convinced that Russia is not able to rise from this state of chaos and confusion by her own strength and on her own accord. That magnificent economic revolution, which the Bolshevik! in Russia are trying now to bring about, is doomed in Russia to complete failure. The ■economic conditions in Russia have not even approximately reached a stage to make an economic revolution possible, and the low grade of education, as well as the unsteady character of the Russian people, make it still more impossible. It is true that magnificent theories and plans have been laid here, but their putting into practice is altogether impossible, principally because of the fol- lowing reasons : The whole propertied class — which here in Russia, where small property ownership mainly prevails, is very numerous — is opposing and obstruct- ing; the officials and the educated classes are obstructing; technically trained people and specialists necessary in the industries are obstructing; local com- mittees and sub-organs make all systematic action impossible, as they in their respective fields determine things quite autocratically and make everything unsuccessful which should be based on a strong, coherent, and in every re- spect minutely conceived system — ^as a social production should be based. But even if all these, in themselves unsurmountable, obstacles could be made away with, there remains still the worst one — and that is the workers themselves. It is already clear that in the face of such economic conditions the whole social order has been upset. Naturally only a small part of the people will remain backing such an order. The whole propertied class belongs to the opponents of the Government, including the petty bourgeoisie, the craftsmen, the small merchants, and profiteers. The whole intellectual class and a great part of the worlcers are also opposing the Government. In comparLson with the entire population only a small minority supports the Government, and, what is worse, to the supporters of the Government are rallying all the hooligans, robbers, and others, to whom this period of confusion promises a good chance of individual action. It is also clear that such a rfigime cannot «tay but with the help of a stern terror. But, on the other hand, the longer the terror continues, the more disagreeable and hated it becomes. Even a great part of those who from the beginning could stay with the Government and who still are sincere, social democrats, having seen all this chaos, begin to step aside, or to ally themselves with those openly opposing the Government. Naturally, as time goes by, there remains only the worst and the most demoral- ized element. Terror, arbitrary rule, and open brigandage become more and more usual and the Government is not able at all to prevent it. And the outcome is clearly to be foreseen : the unavoidable failure of all this magnifi- •cently planned system. And what will be the outcome of that? My conviction is that as soon as possible we should turn toward the other road — the road of united action. I have seen, and I am convinced that the majority of the Russian people is fundamentally democratic and whole- heartedly detests a reinstitution of autocracy, and that therefore all such ele- ments must, without delay, be made to unite. But it is also clear that at first they, even united, will not be able to bring about order in this country on their own accord ; I do not believe that at this time there is in Russia any social force which would be able to organize the conditions in the country. For that reason, to my mind, we should, to begin with, frankly and honestly rely on the help of the Allied Powers. Help from Germany can not be considered, as ■Germany, because of her own interests, is compelled to support the Bolshevik rule as long as possible, as Germany from the Bolshevik rule is pressing more •and more political and economic advantages, to such an extent even that all BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 417 o( Russia gradually is becoming practically a colony of Germriny. Russia thus would serve to compensate Germany for the colonies lost in South Africa. A question presents itself at once whether the Allied Powers are better. And it must be answered Instantly that neither would they establish in Russia any socialistic society. Yet the democratic traditions of these countries are some surety that the social order established by them will be a democratic one. It is clear as day that the policy of the Allied Powers is also im- pevialistic, but the geographical and economic position of these countries is such that even their own interest demand that Russia should be able to develop somewhat freely. The problem has finally evolved into such a state of affairs where Russia must rely on the help either of the Allies or Germany ; we must choose, as the s-aying goes, " between two evils," and things being as badly mixed as they are the lesser evil must be chosen frankly and openly. It does not seein possible to get anywhere by dodging the issue. Russia perhaps would have Siived her- self some time ago from this unfortunate situation, if she had understood immediately after the February revolution the necessity of a union between the more democratic elements. Bolshevism undoubtedly has brought Russia a big step toward her misfortune, from which she cannot extricate herself on her own accord. Thus there exists no more any purely Socialist army, and all the fighting forces, and all those who have taken to arms, are fighting for the interests of the one or the other group of the great Powers. The question therefore finally is only this : in the interest of which group one wants to fight. The revolu- tionary struggles in Russia and in Finland, to my mind, have clearly estab- lished that a Socialistic society cannot be brought about by the force of arms and cannot be supported by the force of farms, but that a Socialistic order must be founded on a conscious and living will of an overwhelming majority of the nations, which is able to realize its will without the help of arms. But now that the nations of the world have actually been thrown into an armed conflict and the war, which in itself is the greatest crime of the world, still is raving, we must stand it. We must, however, destroy tlie — a quart, a pint, or what? Mr. KBYSHToroviCH. I think it is half a pint or something like that. Salt fish, like herrings and so on, sold for from 7 to 9 rubles a pound. Salt, ordinary table salt, 3 rubles per pound. Such things like rice or macaroni we did not see for one year and a half. Senator Sterling. How about beans ? Mr. Keyshtofovich. No beans, no peas, nothing of that kind. The time that I started from Petrograd you could eat only a little bread, salt fish, and drink a little tea, and that is all. Senator Sterling. How about beans and peas ? Are they not pro- duced in considerable quantities in Russia ? Mr. Kryshtofovich. They are produced, but the peasants, gen- erally, do not want to give them to this government. We are pro- ducing beans and peas and lentils and rice, and everything, because in the Caucasus we have large rice fields. Senator Sterling. Were the peasants successful in many instances in keeping the grain they produced from the Red Guard and others who were out searching for it? Mr. Kryshtofovich. Well, of course, Russia is a very large coun- try; and although the Bolsheviki are now only in one-quarter of European Russia, in my estimation, under the government are from 12 to 13 governments, because in these houses people are fighting with them, like the Ukrainian people and the Don people and Cos- sacks of the Caucasus and so on, and the northern part of Russia under the Bolsheviki comprises almost one-quarter of the whole of Russia, with from 12 to 13 governments. Senator Sterling. What I want to get at is, would the peasants resist by force the searching parties that went out to get their grain or other produce, or were they successful in concealing it or hiding it, sometimes ? Mr. Kryshtofovich. Well, sir, our people are a very good-natured people. They begin to protest only when they can not bear condi- tions any more. Lately they began to protest, and they even gath- ered together and tried to make some opposition, but they were without arms. When I shall talk about intervention it will be the end of my talk. Sometimes they say the Russian people can not oppose the handful of Bolsheviki because they have no arms. That is the only reason. They tried to protest and they tried to conceal in vain. If a food-searching detachment or a food-searching party comes to some village they can not conceal. How can they conceal? If you put grain into the earth it will rot. They have no special places to conceal it, and the grain is taken, but it does not help much, as you can see from my description of the prices. It does not help much, because besides this condition transportation is in a fearful condition, too. I told you about getting these products in, and about some distribution, but the pity is that the people in this government are completely inexperienced. Sometimes they bring in some vegetables, they bring in a load of vegetables into Petrograd, but they do not know how to keep them, and very often carloads of potatoes and cabbage* are frozen and spoiled or rot, and that is the condition when a pound of potatoes is selling for 10 rubles. Car- loads of potatoes are spoiled on account of the ignorance of these 424 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. people, who do not know what to do with these potatoes. They have had no experience. In Switzerland and in Prance the refugees were talking and talking and writing socialistic pamphlets, who did not know how to keep potatoes or cabbage. Well, sir, it is a very interesting thing. Senator Steeling. I know it is. Mr. Krtshtofvich. And, besides these refuges, most of the peo- ple that are governing Eussia now are Jews. I am not against Jews in general. They are a very capable and energetic people, but, as you Americans say, the right man must be in the right place. Their place is in the commission houses, in banks, in the offices, but not in the government of a fine agricultural country. They do not under- stand anything about agriculture, about production, about keeping materials, and about distribution. They do not know anything about those things at all. Senator Wolcott. You mean those that are in charge of the Bol- sheviki, do you not? Mr. Keyshtofovich. I am talking about the Bolsheviki; because, if j'ou take our Bolshevik government, Lenine is a Russian and all these constellations that are turning around this sun are Jews. They have changed their names. For instance, Trotsky is not Trotsky, but Bronstein. We have Apfelbaum, and so on, and so on. Senator Overman. Are you a Russian? Mr. Ketshtofovich. I am a south Russian; yes, sir. Senator Oveeman. Why did you leave Russia? Mr. Ketshtofovich. I came back. Senator Oveeman. You live in this country? Mr. Ketshtofovich. Yes, sir. Senator Oveeman. Your home is here? Mr. Ketshtofovich. Yes, sir. Senator Oveeman. How long have you lived in this country? Mr. Ketshtofovich. I have lived in this country for 16 years, and my family has been living here for 24 years. We have a farm in California and I came here for a few days, and expect to go to Cali- fornia and humbly ask for citizenship, because I think I have all the rights for it. Senator Steeung. When were you last in Russia ? You may have stated it at the beginning of your examination, but I was not here. Mr. Ketshtofovich. On the 15th of December I left Russia. Senator Oveeman. Did you have any trouble getting out? Mr. Ketshtofovich. Well, I will tell you. It is an interesting thing, too. You see this passport? This is a foreign passport. Under the Imperial Government, if I wanted a passport, I went to a local police office and asked for a certificate that they had nothing against my going abroad, and I took the certificate and went to the OMitral police office and presented it and told them I wanted a pass- port to go abroad, and in a few days I received it. They made every- thing very plain, very convenient, very easy. Under the socialistic government, to get this passport I had to go to our house council, formed of the poorest peoi)le living in this house, and it is called the house poor people's committee, and I asked for a certificate that I was leaving this house. This certificate I would take to the local police station, and they put a stamp on it, and then I go to a judi- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 425 ciary commission and get another certificate that I am not under their jurisdiction for any crime, and return again to the local police station, they put a stamp on it, and there is a man who puts another stamp on it, and then I go to the minister of foreign affairs and ask for this passport, and in from two weeks to two months I may get it, and I pay for it 40 rubles; and any time from two weeks to two months it is given to me, and for it I paid 40 rubles. Then I go to the minister of the interior and ask permission to cross the frontier, and it is given to me. Then, when I wanted to go abroad I was told that I must go to the military control, and in the military control I found a young Jew, about 22 or 23 years old, and he asked me what I wanted. I told him I wanted to go abroad, and he told me I could not go. I told him I had permission from the minister of foreign affairs and from the minister of the interior, and asked him why he did not want to give me permission. He said : " I will not give you permission; I will not give anyone permission." I told hiin I knew of other people who were going abroad, and that there was a steam- ship going to sail the next day from Petrograd to Stockholm, but he said : " I will not allow any steamship to go there." Well, I went to the steamship office and asked them whether their steamer would sail the next day, and they told me it would. I asked them if it would carry passengers, and they told me it would ; and at the same time one little man, a Jew, came in and asked for a ticket and it was given to him. I asked him if he was going to Stockholm, and he said : " No ; I am buying a ticket for another man." " But," I said, " how alpout getting permission of the military control ? " " Oh," he said, " I shall get it." " But the office is closed. It is now 1 o'clock, and the office is open only until 12." " Oh," he says, " I shall get permission." I asked him if he could get permission for me, and he looked at me and said, " No, sir ; I can not." It was for- tunate that I did not get a ticket on that steamer, because I read in the newspapers afterwards that only 10 passengers were on this steamer. They were Bolsheviki who were going there for some rea- son; and in Finland, at Helsingfors, this steamer was detained and aU these people were taken from the steamer and put in jail. Maj. Humes. How did you get out? Go on and finish the story. How did you succeed in getting out? Mr. Ketshtofovich. Well, sir, when I obtained this passport I went to the Swedish consulate; and I have good friends here in America. They asked permission from the American Government for me to come here, and the Swedish consulate received this permis- sion from Washington, and I was given the assistance of the Swedish and Norwegian consulates; but I could not cross the Norwegian border without permission of the military officials, so I tried to escape without permission, and I found an organization that was doing this business. I paid 1,500 rubles for that. From the station Beloostrov I was taken by two men. I had very little with me — only this suit which I am now wearing and four changes of under- wear. One man took my little grip — another one was with me — ■ and we crossed the river, which is the border line between Russia and Finland; and in Finland the three of us were taken by White Guards. They were very kind to us and helped us in every respect. 426 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. From Finland we went to Stockholm, and from Stockholm to Nor- way, and from Norway here. Senator Overman. Then, there are organizations there which, for a consideration, get people out of the country ? Mr. Keyshtofovich. Yes, sir. This system was doing a nice business. It cost me 1,500 rubles. There were three of us, so we paid 4,500 rubles, but on Saturday there were eight people and thev had to pay 12,800. There were four people in this organization, but the head one has been shot by the Bolsheviki. Senator Sterling. Was that the regular charge, 1,500 rubles? Mr. Keyshtofovich. Yes, sir ; that was the charge in this organi- zation, but there was another organization that charged 3,000 rubles. It was a little more complicated and I did not want to use it. This was more risky, because, while Red Guards who were on duty at the border were bribed, sometimes a new Red Guard would come on and he would shoot the people. However, this river is a very narrow one, so, while a person risked much while crossing, he was exposed but two or three minutes. There is another class of people, however, that can not escape, who do not know where to go, who have no means to pay these organiza- tions, and so on. They are staying in Petrograd and most of them are dying from hunger. It is not a fable; it is not insinuation; it is a fact. I have seen on the Nevsky Prospect — it is something like your Pennsylvania Avenue — a girl of 17 or 18 years, very thin and emaciated, crying, " I want to eat, I want to eat, I want to eat," and she was given little pieces of bread, and so on. But the people could not give much; they had none themselves. Many people are lying on the sidewalks and asking for some bread, but nobody can give them much, only a piece as large as the end of your little finger. Even the first category get only half a pound a day. There people are mostly getting thinner and thinner and thinner. Then they are taken to hospitals, but even in the hospitals they can not be fed, be- cause the hospitals do not receive much food. So the people are dying. You see on the streets not a procession, but simply a wagon with three, four, five, or six coffins placed crosswise on each other going to cemeteries. Lately a decree was issued providing that corpses were the property of the government, and prohibiting rela- tives from burying their dead. Only the government can do that. This decree was issued because they have no religious ceremonies with burials. I was there in Petrograd at the time this decree was issued. Senator Oveeman. They had no legal ceremony for the dead at all? Mr. Keyshtofovich. Yes. They did not want it. Senator Oveeman. How are you regarded, as a Bolshevist or as a Red Guard? Mr. Keyshtofovich. What, sir? Senator Oveeman. How were you regarded when you lived there? Mr. Keyshtofovich. Well, sir, in my opinion this Bolsheviki sys- tem is comprised of three parties. One party can be termed lunatics, another party Senator Wolcott. Termed what? Mr. Keyshtofovich. Lunatics. Senator Wolcott. Lunatics? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 427 Mr. Keyshtofovich. Another party are swindlers, and a third party is a two-legged herd. Senator Wolcott. What? Mr. Keystofovich. A tM'o-legged herd. Senator Wolcott. A two-legged herd? Mr. Keyshtofovich. Yes, sir. You asked me my opinion. This is my opinion — a two-legged herd, because other animals have four legs and they make a herd, but these ones have but two. Senator Wolcott. They are two-legged beasts, I suppose. Mr. Keyshtofovich. A two-legged herd. That is my opinion, I say. Maj. Humes. Well, as they classify the citizens of Eussia, did they treat you as belonging to the bourgesie, or what class did they put you? Mr. Keyshtofovich. My position was an exceptional one. As I told you, I lived in a house where workmen lived. Across the street there was about 60 acres of vacant land. The inhabitants of our house wanted to rent that land from the owner and convert it into a vegetable garden, because, as I told you, vegetables were very, very expensive. As I am an agriculturist they invited me to show them how to. plow this land, how to plant their vegetables and take care of them. So I did, and I worked in this garden with them, and we had a large crop of vegetables. When other people, for instance, at that time, in September, bought cabbage from us, we charged them 2| rubles or 3 rubles a pound, while we sold them to ourselves at 1 ruble 90 kopecks. Therefore, they did not look on me as a bourgeois, as a capitalist, be- cause they knew that I was living in a very modest apartment with but little furniture. Almost all my clothes and other things were taken in October by anarchists, so I did not have very much. They had taken everything I had. Maj. Humes. You say you rented that land? Mr. Keyshtofovich. Yes. Maj. Humes. I thought all the land was nationalized. From whom did you rent it? Mr. Keyshtofovich. We rented it from the owner ; but the Govern- ment did not agree with us, and one morning they came to us and told us not to pay rent to the owner because that land belonged to the Government and they would not allow us to pay this money to the owner of the land. Maj. Humes. But they collected the rent, all right? They collected the rent themselves? Mr. Ketshtofovich. Yes. Maj. Humes. Yes. Mr. Keyshtofovich. So, I say they did not look on me as a capi- talist or anyone that could harm them. And besides, I was acquainted with many of these people who were living in our house and every- one knew that I did not belong to any party at all ; and when asked why I did not work with the Government 1 always answered that I was 61 years old, had worked all hiy life, and being tired, wanted to retire; but I was looking mostly to the time when I could escape from this — those socialistic governments. I could not do it. I had a little money in the bank. It was enough at that time to get to the 428 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. United States, but one morning it was confiscated and I was allowed to draw only, for the first time, 150 rubles, then 250 rubles, and finally it was increased to 500 rubles ; so, I drew them little by little, had to spend them for food, and finally had no money at all, and no possibilities to get here. However, fortunately, one of my American friends loaned me money to get away from there. Senator Wolcott. How many people were left in Petrograd when you left there, did you hear it stated ? Mr. Ketshtofovich. In what direction? Senator Wolcott. How many people were in Petrograd; what was the population of Petrograd when you left? Mr. KRTSHToroviCH. Yes, yes. It was 1,200,000 instead of 3,000,- 000 as it was two years ago — only one-third left, because they had nothing to eat; and another thing, they are all terrorized. Terror is not an invention, gentlemen, it exists. I had an acquaintance of mine living in the same house, on the same floor, and one Sunday afternoon I went to visit him. He was clerk in a bank — a bank in- spector — and I stayed there until 9 o'clock in the e\'ening and then 1 said goodnight. As I opened the door to leave I saw seven or eight people, Eed Guards, and the secretary of our house committee, who was with them, told me to go home quickly and I went. Senator Sterling. Were these Eed Guards armed ? Mr. Keyshtofovich. Yes, sir ; yes, sir. This man was questioned from 9 o'clock in the evening until 2 o'clock in the morning, and was then taken and put in jail, and was kept in jail. When he and his wife asked the Government why he was arrested and why he was put in jail no one answered them. They said only: "He is a counter- revolutionary and he is opposed to the Government ; " and, when he said he was working all the time they said, " Never mind, you did sabotage ; you did not work as well as you should," and so on, but the direct cause was not presented against him. Finally, he contracted spotted typhoid fever and was transferred to the hospital, and I do not know about his fate now. This is not an exceptional case, but there are hundreds and thousands of these cases. They are occurring every day. Senator Steeling. So his offense was because he did not engage in sabotage, as you say, did not engage in hindering the operation of the factory or industry ; was that it ? Mr. Keyshtofovich. He worked in the bank, but he did not want to support the Bolshevists, and he did not want to be one of their creed. - Senator Steeling. Yes. Mr. Keyshtofovich. If you go to a Bolshevist and ask for work they say, "AJl right, are you a Bolshevist?" If you answer no, they ask you to what party you belong. If you say you do not belong to any party at all they say they will give you work only on condition that you bring them indorsements from some Bolshevik party or some prominent Bolshevik. Only when you do that are you to be given work, and if you support them. If you do not support them, you do not get work. You read in the papers, of course, that the famous Maxim Gorky is trying to induce intelligent people to work with the Bolsheviki. That is true. They organize meetings and say: " There is enough of discord; there is enough of sabotage; come to BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 429 us; work with us; we shall give you work;" and as soon as anyone asks for work he is told what I have said before — " bring us some certificate that you are on friendly terms with the Bolsheviki." Senator Sterling. What kind of work do they give men who say they are Bolshevists, and are willing to join them? They can not give them work in factories, because they are closed for the most part. Mr. KRysBCTOFOvicH. I say, mostly for intelligent people, for , specialists; but for workmen, workmen mostly do not know to what political creed they belong. They are working in some factories that are running, and they are doing what the Bolsheviki say. Senator Overman. Were you over there representing any interests in this country? Were you a representative of some concern over there? Mr. Kryshtofovich. Here? Senator Overman. Over in Eussia ? Mr. Kryshtofovich. Eussia ? Senator Overman. Yes. What was your business there? Mr. Kryshtofovich. I say, I was working with the Minister of Agriculture. Senator Overman. To this country ? Mr. Kryshtofovich. In Eussia, and for four years I was repre- aeiitative of the Minister of Agriculture in St. Louis. Senator Overman. Eepresentative of the Eussian Government ? Mr. Kryshtofovich. Yes, sir; as agricultural agent. It was my proposition to establish an agricultural agency in the United States for facilitating the buying of machinery, introducing into Eussia American machinery and seeds, and so on; and I established it, or- ganized it, and ran it for four years. Then I asked permission to be transferred to Petrograd to organize a cotton business there, but I was not successful, because the minister at that time was a share- holder of a large company that did not like this work. Senator Sterling. During what year did you represent the Min- ister of Agriculture in this country ? Mr. Kryshtofovich. In this country ? Senator Sterling. Yes. Mr. Kryshtofovich. From 1909 to 1912. Senator Sterling. Inclusive? Mr. Kryshtofovich. Yes; inclusive; but for the last two years I did not work at all. I ate my money that I gathered before — a little sum — and was not living, but starving. I lost 37 pounds at that time. I have been present here for three days and have heard most of the things that have been told you, and would not like to reiterate what has already been said, but I would like to call your attention to some special questions. For instance, they told you about banks. I wish to tell you about the budget of this government. For the last half of the year 1918 their budget, on paper, was 26,000,000,000 rubles, and that is for only one quarter part of European Eussia. Under the Imperial Government the budget for the whole of Eussia was less than 3,000,000,000. It was 2,300,000,000 ; 2,400,000,000, about that amount. But under the Bolsheviki government for one-half year, for one quarter of the whole of European Eussia, the budget was 26,000,000,000 rubles. 430 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Sterling. Why not for the whole of Eussia? Because they did not have control of it? Mr. Krtshtofovich. Yes, sir. Senator Sterling. That was it. Mr. Kryshtofovich. Yes, sir. And this article I read about reve- nue — unfortunately I could not get it out of Russia, because in Fin- land they do not allow the Bolsheviki literature to be brought into the country, but I wish I could show you this article. They say that the budget is twenty-six billion, while the income is only twelve and one-half, while the deficit is made up by contributions from wealthy people. There was thirteen and a half billion deficit. Maj. Humes. You say 13,000,000,000 is the contribution from the wealthy people? Mr. Krtshtofovich. No; ten. Maj. Humes. Ten billions? Mr. Krtshtofovich. Yes. Maj. Humes. They use the word contribution, not as meaning a voluntary contribution, do they not, but a forced payment ? In other words, it is money that is forcibly taken away from the people? Mr. Krtshtofovich. Yes, sir; yes, sir. Maj. Humes. Yes. Mr. Krtshtofovich. You were told about commerce ; you were told about factories. Now I will let you know something about oil and coal production. It is a very interesting thing. When I left Petro- fad, Petrograd had no fuel. A pile of firewood 7 feet by 7 feet by feet was worth 1,800 rubles — ordinary birch firewood. At the same time the city of Petrograd is surrounded by peat lands, and only 130, 140, or 150 versts — or 76 or 80 miles — from Petrograd there are coal mines. Although the forests are plentiful around Petrograd, and peat lands are plentiful and coal fields are plentiful, Petrograd was without fuel. Why ? Because firewood was not brought in. The steamers and barges on the river were nationalized and stayed idle. They do not know how to make peat fuel, ho wto exploit coal mines ; and the winters in Petrograd are very serious, and very long. From October until May you must heat houses day by day. What those poor people are doing now I do not know. Oil could not be brought from Baku in the south. Coal could not be brought from Poland, because they were fighting in the west. Firewood could not be brought on the other railroads from the east, because they were fighting in the east, and firewood could not be brought from the north, because they were fighting in the north. They were fighting in the north, south, west, and east. Senator Overman. How did you keep warm ? How did you keep from freezing ? Mr. Krtshtofovich. I do not know, I do not know what they are doing now. I think besides hunger and starvation, they are freezing now. We have every kind of heating, beginning with Holland heaters down to steam heating and hot- water heating and so on, but no fuel to heat with. Perhaps you want to know what effect is produced by these de- crees, these rulings of this socialistic government, on the social life and the individual life of the people. I can tell you in a few words. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 431 Senator Steeling. Before passing to that, I would like to ask you a question in regard to the fuel supply. Have you any coal mines in Kussia? Mr. KEYSHTorovicH. Yes ; plenty of them. Senator Steeling. Have you any nearer than Baku ? Mr. Keyshtoeovich. Yes, I told you that only 70 miles from Petrograd there are coal mines. Senator Sterling. I did not get that. Mr. Ketshtofovich. They are excellent, and very many of them, and near Petrograd, because I tell everything concerning the north- ern part, and not south of the fifty-second parallel, because the Bol- sheviki have their povper only as far south as the fifty-second parallel. South of that is the Ukraine. I do not know what kind of power they have in the Ukraine, as they are fighting there, too. Everyone is fighting. Senator Overman. Fighting in the nighttime and fighting in the daytime and fighting all over the town. Mr. Kryshtofovich. Yes, sir ; they are fighting, fighting, fighting, and no end. The Bolsheviki are fighting all other parties, and I am sure that if another party should take the power in their hands they would begin to fight the other ones. I will tell about this just in the end. Now, I begin with churches. As you know, gentlemen, the Rus- sians are a very religious people. Like here in the United States, there are very many denominations there, but most of the people be- long to the Greek Church. Of course, the priests and religious peo- ple are not very pleasant to the Bolsheviki, because the Bolsheviki deny any religion or any religious sentiment. They oppose the Rus- sian clergy and the Russian clergy oppose the Bolsheviki, and the Russian priests are treated very badly. For instance, they are set to do street work, cleaning the streets, paving streets, digging ditches, and so on. The workmen told me several times, " The Bolsheviki are sending out priests to work in the streets. Why do they not send their rabbis ? " And that is true. The Jewish rabbis are not sent to work on the streets. The Bolsheviki are opposing religion to such an extent that lately when I was going to Petrograd they raised a question of teaching atheism in the schools. They boast that they have opened so many schools, but they do not say that they closed as many schools as they opened. We had schools in connection with the churches, in connection with every church there was a school, and all these schools are closed now. Senator Sterling. Were those church schools what might be termed free schools? Were they open to all children? Mr. Ketshtofovich. Yes, sir ; they were open to all children, and they had a subsidy from the government like the state schools, only the difference was that in the church schools religion was taught a little more than in the common schools. In the common schools religion was taught some, but in the church schools religion was taught more. Senator Steeling. But there was no tuition to pay? Mr. Ketshtofovich. Yes. Senator Sterling. There was a tuition fee to pay ? Mr. Ketshtofovich. No ; they were all free. Now, about the newspapers. We had not as many newspapers as you have here in America, but still we liad some, and some good ones, 432 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. but in seven or eight months they were all closed except the Bolshevik papers. The Bolsheviki did not allow them to publish any papers except the Bolshevik papers. They did not allow any pamphlets to be published against Bolshevism. No book, no paper, and no pam- phlet; and no word can be told against Bolshevism in Eussia. Senator Sterling. Did some of the papers change and become Bolshevik papers? Mr. Ketshtofovich. No, sir; I do not know any of them. One paper that was edited by Maxim Gorky tried to be between two chairs, as we say in Eussia, but he was not successful and was ordered to quit it. Now, there are in Petrograd only three or four Bolshevik papers and nothing else. Senator Steelijs'G. Where is Maxim Gorky now ? Is he in Petro- grad? Mr. Ketshtofovich. I think he went to Paris as the head of some committee that was sent by the Bolsheviks to try to get into the peace of conference ; but, of course, they Avere denied all the time, and I do not know where he is now. Senator Steeling. He is a recognized Bolshevik, is he not ? Mr. Kexshtofovich. Now? Senator Steeling. Yes. Mr. Ketshtofovich. That is true. Before, he was in opposition to the Bolshevik government, but finally he adopted all their teachings and helped them, and that is a great pity, because he is a very talented man. You have heard about the persecution of the Eussian intelligentsia. The Bolsheviks know very well that intelligent people understand better than the ignorant all their decrees and all their teachings, and they are fighting those people unmercifully. I mentioned that we have in Eussia 25 political parties, and among them several socialistic parties. We have already had two of them governing us, and you see the results. But if some party like the Mensheviks — the Social Democrats are divided into two groups, the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks — if the Mensheviks were in control of the Government, they would fight the Bolsheviks and others, so, in my opinion, if Eussia will be let alone, this continuous fighting will last at least for 20 or 25 years to come. Senator Sterling. What opportunities would that condition of things give Germany in Eussia, for German exploitation of Eussia, if that state of disorder and anarchy should continue for 20 or 25 years, as you say? Mr. Ketshtofovich. Of course, Germany did not count well what results would follow from their efforts to introduce Bolshevism in Eussia. They thought that Bolshevism would ruin Eussia— Eussian industry, Eussian financial power, and so on — and at that time they would conquer the allies and would come to Eussia and establish order and be the masters of all the world; but, of course, you know better than I do that they were not successful in this enterprise. Senator Oveeman. You have lived among the peasants and you have lived among the worldngmen. What is their feeling against the Bolsheviks? Mr. Ketshtofovich. Well, sir, that is a very interesting question, of course. Of course, the workmen were for the Bolshevik govern- BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 433' / ment; but little by little, as I have already mentioned, they /were dis- satisfied with the conditions. They were very glad wheii they re- ceived 400, 500, and 600 rubles a month, instead of 60 and/ 70, when the factories were running, but they were dissatisfied nji^n the fac- tories stopped. Of course, they were paid six weeks' pay, but it was not enough for the seventh week; so they began to protest, but all these protests were quenched by showing them armed red guards and so on. As I told you, they were dispersed from Petrograd to dif- ferent cities, and those that are left in Petrograd are more and more dissatisfied with the Bolshevik government. Xow, about the peasants. The peasants were on the side of the Bolsheviks only for the reason that the Bolsheviks gave them all the' land; but as soon as the peasants were in possession of this land,, they thought that the Bolsheviks were not necessary for them any more, and especially when the Bolsheviks began to take their prodr ucts, as grain, flour, cattle, and so on, they began to be resentful against the Bolsheviks, and now most of the peasants are in open revolt against the Bolsheviks. When I was starting from Petrogxad,. I heard from many people that in the government of Tula they caught the Bolshevik leaders and buried them alive in the earth. Senator Oveejiax. Buried them alive? Mr. KRxsH'roFo\iC'ii. Yes, sir. You ask me now if the workmen are against the Bolshevik government, or if the peasants are against the Bolshevik government, or if the Bolshevik government will exist perhaps one or two months more, and then will be obliged to run' away. It is not quite so, gentlemen. The Bolshevik government has behind it two interesting organizations. These are Lett sharp shoot- . ers and Chinamen. I think that the Lett sharp shooters are between-. 25,000 and 30,000 people. They are very faithful to the Bolsheviks. They are getting a large salary, are fed well, are clothed Avell; and,, besides, they can not go home because at home they will be hanged all as one man. The people at home have told them many times, "Quit this business and go home, otherwise we will not let you go- home." They did not pay attention, and now they can not go home. Tliey must -work for the Bolsheviks to the end. Senator Sterling. To what province do they belong — Esthonia, Courland, or what? Mr. Kryshtofovich. I can not tell, sir. I think they are dissemi- nated from several provinces of the northwest of Russia — Courland, . the government of Grodno and Kovno. Senator Sterling. Esthonia? Mr. Kryshtofovich. Esthonia, yes. As to the Chinamen, there are now 8,000 Chinamen or more in the Russian guard and twa Chinese officers. They are fed well, clothed well, and are happy. Thev have round faces now, shiny, and like to work more and more for the Bolsheviks, and the Bolsheviks want more and more China- men, and I have heard that they sent to China their emissaries to- get more Chinamen from China, to bring them through Turkestan and use them as red guards. As the workmen and peasants, have - no arms, only a little force is sufficient to keep them in subjugation. These two causes — one that we have so many political parties, and' the other that disarmed people can not fight armed ones— puts the- question of intervention to the front. 85723—19 28 434 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senatcn- Sterlixu. With proper encouragement and aid. would the several pkrties in Russia be united against the bolshevisni? Mr. KijYSHToruvKH. Well, it can be done, I think. Seveitd measures b&n be taken in a very peaceful way. As for myself, I would say that two very strong props can be taken from the Bol- shevik system. One is currency, and another one is paper. Xow, look here, gentlemen. Until lately they issued so-called Kerensky paper, greenbacks, Kerensky paper money. Why did thev issue Kerensky paper money and not paper money of their own( We must ask what paper money is. It is a note which when pre- sented to the treasury must be paid in gold or silver, and it must be signed with the name of a responsible uum or representative of a party that the people believe in. They nuide this money and at fii-st this money had some credit, but lately abroad they began to refuse to take it, and at home it was not very favorably accepted. But lately the Bolsheviks have decided to discontinue using Kerensky paper, and to resume the printing of Nicholas money. What does that mean? They take P^mperor Nicholas" name and use it and get credit on it. That is a swindle ; that is a counterfeit. We have in Finland the same kind of precedent. For a short tune the Reds obtained power there and issued their marks, Finnish money, but when they were overpowered by this government, this govern- ment made publication of all the series and of all the numbers of the money that was issued by the Bolsheviks, and this money is looked on now as counterfeit, as spurious. Tlie same must be done with the Bolsheviks now in Russia. All the money that is issued by them must not' be taken by any banker in the world. That is the first prop that can be taken from them. Another one is paper. They are doing an excellent propagamhu and their propaganda is organized in a fine way. One hundred thousand pamphlets and leaflets perhaps are sent to the provinces to be distributed among the peasants and workmen, and doing their deadly work. But even before, the Russian paper industry was not developed, and Russia bought a large quantity of paper from Finland and Sweden. Now, the Finnish and Swedish Governments and the Finnish and Swedish people are against bolshevism, but merchants are always merchants, and everywhere are merchants. They are selling paper to the Bolsheviks in Russia, and this paper is going for Bol- sheviki propaganda. I think that America is strong enough to make the Bolshevists do without this paper. I think that intervention along this line is feasible if this plan were adopted, but, unfor- tunately, for some reason this plan has not been followed, I am sorry to say. TESTIMONY OF COL. V. S. HURBAN. Col. Hurban is military attache of the Czecho-Slovak Legation in Washington. The witness was sworn by the chairman. Maj. Humes. Colonel, were you a part of the Czecho-Slovak army— with the Czecho-Slovak army — that was in Siberia, in Russia? Col. HuEBAN. Yes; I was. Maj. Humes. During what period of time were you in RussIr? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 435 Col. HuKBAN. I ha\e been in Russia since 1908. Since 1908 I have lived in Russia, and been with the general staff. I was aji instructor of officers in the intelligence service. Senator Wolcott. What is your nationality ? Col. Htjeban. Slovak. Senator Wolcoti'. Where were you born ? Col. HuRBAN. In North Hungary — now the cotuitry of Czecho- slovakia. Maj. Hi MES. Will j'ou just relate your observations and experi- ences with the Bolshevik government when in Russia? Col. HuRBAN. I know a good deal about the Bolsheviki. I saw how they started. I dealt with them because I have been a member of the Czecho-Slovak council, in the representative national council which was before we were recognized as a state. Senator Overman. Were you in the war between Germany and Russia ? Col. HuRBAN. As the war started I entered as a volunteer in the Russian army, and I was in the Russian army from the first of August, 1914, imtil the end of 1916, when I became one of the organi- zers of Czecho-Slovak Rvissia. Since then I have belonged to our Army. If you want to understand what happened in Russia, I think it is necessary to tell how it was possible, and I think the present situa- tioij in Russia is absolutely natural and logical, growing out of the conditions that existed before the revolution. We are fighting with the Bolsheviki, but I can not blame them alone for the present situa- tion. The present situation has been absolutely prepared by the old Tsar regime. The people have been held by force in absolute dark- ness and ignorance. The governing classes have been degenerate, corrupt, and treacherous. The Russian people have suffered for four hundred, five hundred, a thousand years, have suffered always, in innocent suffering. They have been held by the old Russian Gov- ernment not as slaves but worse than slaves. I should say that to-day the 180,000,000 people can be terrorized by some people, but it is only because thej' are accustomed to being terrorized, because they have been terrorized during the hundreds and hundreds of years be- fore. The Russian people have absolutely no national feeling as we under- stand it. Nobody in Russia has it. Why ? The Government, the rul- ing classes, have been the supporters of the Tsar's regime. They have been demoralized, degenerated, autocratic, and corrupt, and every- thing they should not be. At this time they have no national feeling. The liberal classes rejected nationality. Under the Tsar's regime only one part of the Russians used national feeling as a tool for propa- - ganda, which has been the so-called Pan-Slavists, and perhaps you know the Pan-Slavists have been the most reactionary people. They dream'ed about a big Sla,v state under the wide rule of the Tsar, a Tsar half divine and half human, who would rule all Russia and all the Slav people. This is the only class in Russia that has spoken about nationality. The liberalists must reject them because they saw that work was absolutely impossible, because they saw in Russia they could do nothing. Their work was to be on an international basis. The in- 436 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. telligent and honest people did not have this national feeling at all. and the largest class of people, the peasants, the ignorant people, did not know anything about national feeling. For example, it has been said that the war has been popular. It has been said that the Russian peasant hates the Germans. That is not the truth. Take a wounded and suffering soldier, and he gives him bread, and gives him tea, and treats him not with hate. The Russian peasant does not like the Germans, bue he dislikes them not because of the basis of national feeling but because of economic reasons, because the Russian peasant and worker Imows that the German worker is much more clever than he is. There is a proverb in the Russian language that everything is invented by the Ger- mans. The Russians did not like the Germans as they went into the ^var, but they did not hate the Germans because of their nation- ality, because of the national feeling, since there was no national feeling. The Ruhsian went into the war because he was told to go into the war, and he has been accustomed through thousands of yoars to obey, to go into war and to fight. Xobody knew where they were going, and they have been going into the war because they have been obedient, and because it was against German}', and because it was for economical reasons; but nobody can truthfully say that the war has been popular. It never has been popular in Russia as it has been in Germany, in France, in England, and last, as it has been in the United States. When the war started the Russian Government was pro-German, corrupt, and dishonest. Senator Si"erling. Do you mean to say that the government as a whole was cori'upt and dishonest, or only a few men under the gov- ernment? Do you mean the Tsar himself was corrupt or that he was pro-German, for example? (^ol. Htjeban. It is difficult to tell about him. I saw him many times and I heard him speak, and I thought he was mentally a feeble man. Senator Sterling. I may not disagree with you in that. He ^vas not a strong man. Col. HuRBAX. He has been nothing. Senator Wolcott. His wife was, was she not? Col. Htjrbak. She was clever. Senator Wolcott. She was German ? Col. Hurban-. Yes. You have the testimony there of Mr. Krysh- tofovich that he wanted to establish a cotton factory there but that one of the ministry had some stock in a factory and that he could not get it done. Such things are absolutely true. I do not know how you translate this Russian word " vziatka," where you put the money in the hand and you get everything. Senator Wolcott. Call it " graft." Col. HuEBAi\\ You have an expression like it? Senator Wolcoit. Graft. Col. HuRBAN. It is such a common word; and if anybody takes money he is not considered a bad man. It is absolutely the natural thing there. Senator Overman. It was not considered dishonest to accept a bribe ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 437 Col. HuRBAN . It was not. I know thousands of men of high posi- tion and everybody knows that they do it. It is all right. Now, you have heard many times of Gen. Deniken. Now, he is the leader of the army in the provinces. Now, everybody knows that his in- tendant Senator Wolcott. Quartermaster or commissary ? Maj. Httmes. Supply department. Col. Htjeban. Supply department, or intendant, it is called. It was known everywhere in Russia that his intendant took bribes. Senator Wolcott. I might say right here that I talked with the foreign sales agent of one of our large munitions concerns in this country, who dealt with all the foreign Governments, and he told me that he had not found a Russian official yet that did not have his hand behind his back. Col. HtiEBAN. It is true. But Gen. Deniken said about this in- tendant that he knew that the intendant was stealing. He said, " He steals, but my army will have shoes and will have bread." Those are the words of Gen. Deniken. When the war started'the government was pro-German, absolutely. Gov. Sturmer and others were pro-German not because they would, perhaps, help Germany, but they knew with the help of the Germans they could keep their autocratic government in Russia. Everybody knows that the head of the Russian general staff was a traitor. The general staff knew, when we started the war in August, 191J:. that they must prepare for the war, and when we went into Galicia we only had shells enough to last a month, and the second month of the war we had no shells. This was because of the ignorant Russian general staff, which were traitors. Senatoi Sterling. Suppose the Russian army had been well sup- plied with munitions and arms and had not grown suspicious or corrupt, perhaps, on the part of some of the leaders — the prime minister, like Stiirmer ; or the minister of the interior — would not the Russian soldiers have had considerable heart in the war and would they not have gone ahead and fought? Col. HuBBAN. By the end of September, when we started toward Cracow, the whole of Galicia was in our hands. We sent the Aus- trian army back with one push. It was all that was necessary. If we had had then 500,000 shells we would have put Austria out of the war. Austria was out absolutely, because, when we came to the neighborhood of Cracow, the Moravians and the Bohemians were waiting for us, and Austria would have been absolutely cut off. It would have been the absolute defeat of Austria. But we did not have those shells and we did not have the rifles. I saw the attack of a new regiment of 15,000 men that came up and did not have a rifle, and they went into the attack with sticks. The Russian soldier is, perhaps, the tallest soldier in history. They went to the attack with sticks and took the position, and they were told that they could find their rifles on the field. They took the position and they captured prisoners. If material had been furnished and they could have been led by honest men and not by traitors or ignorant men, the war would have ended, if not in 1914, in 1915, surely. Senator Overman. Do you know the Grand Duke ? Col. HuRBAN. Yes ; I know him. 438 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Overman. He was not an ignorant man ? Col. HuRBAX. I do not believe in him. Senator Wolcott. What do you mean by that? Col. HuKBAN. I do not believe in his ability. He was at that time like the rest. Senator Wolcott. Like the rest? Col. Httrban. It is impossible to be a man who was educated and lived the life under the circumstances that he did and be honest. He can not be, under such circumstances — having been educated in the Russian court. Everybody said " Nicholas is honest." But that was impossible. Xo one in the country believes he is an honest man. and nobody thought he was a traitor, but he has been at the head of the general staif. That proves that he was a man of no ability. I do not believe in him. Nicholas said in the beginning to the Poles that they would get their autonomy. The Germans entered the Polish Provinces of Russian Poland, but when the military situation got better, nobody spoke about autonomy for the Poles. It proves that he does not keep his promises. I nmst say that, to understand what is happening to-day in Rus- sia, we must not think of anarchy as starting with the Bolsheviki or* with the oveitlii'ow of the Kerensky government. I believe anarchy started on the 27th of March, 1917, when the Tsar was overthrown. I will explain mj' idea. All the laws, all the rules in Russia have been passed, not for the people, but they came from the head — passed by the Tsar. The Russian ignorant peasant never understands a rule, that the rule is necessary to be made for himself; but, on the other hand, he understands the rule is a law because the boss needs it — the Tsar. The psychology of understanding and following a law has been not social, I should say, but it has come from above. The authority was personified by the Tsar, as being very near to God. All the Russian officials under the Tsar's regime were demoralized. A Russian of- ficial never thought of doing his duty toward the people, but his duty was toward his next boss ; and so he ne^er served the people, but he served first the next boss, and so on up to the Tsar. When the overthrow of the Tsar came, then the basis of following the laws was lost to the peasant in his own mind. He had been obeying the Tsar, and as there was no longer any Tsar, though the provisional government ran only a very short time, yet by force of gravity and custom the peasant continued along in the same way ; but the force of gravity grew less and less until complete anai'chy took possession of the Russian peasant. He had no moral basis for himself. He had lost it ; it had been taken away. So I say he had anarchy in his mind, and that anarchy had been caused 50 per cent by the old Tsar regime and 25 per cent by the Kerensky government. Senator Sterling. What is the last statement? Col. Htjeban. If we are to decide who is responsible for the present anarchial condition, I should say that 50 per cent should be blamed on the old regime, 25 per cent on Kerensky, and 25 per cent on the Bol- shevik government. Senator Sterling. Why is it due to the Kerensky government? Senator Wolcott. Let us see if I understand what you are getting at. I think I catch your point. Is it this way? The Russian people, BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 439 the great mass of the people, do not recognize obedience to law in the sense that we Americans do. They only knew obedience to men, which obedience they gave because of the Tsar's claim to divine right, and which obedience they also gave because of fear. They obeyed their rulers, the people did, and they thought of laws only in the sense that they were rules put down on the people by the rulers ? Col. HuRBAN. Yes. Senator Wolcott. Now, when in Marcli the rulers were over- thrown, the Evissian people lost all their ties of authority. They were not. devoted to law. They had been only devoted to the rulers, and the rul- rs wore gone. For a little while the Russian people be- haved themselves by the impetus of past custom, but within a short time that impetus was lost and the people just were left without any authority that they recognized, so that there was anarchy in their minds. And hence when that anarchy grew and grew, and got more, you trace it back and say that it stai'ted from Kerensky's gov- ernment which had creafpcl an anarchy of mind, so to speak. Have I expressed your point right? Col. Htjrban. Yes; p':'rhaps you can make me understand. The rulers who came after the Tsar, the honest men in Russia who came out, ought to have known the mind of the Russian people, but they did not. I did not know Miliukov nor Roclzianko. Miliukov was one of the most able men that Russia had. He Avoidd have stopped the Russian anarchy by giving them the Dardanelles, and he proclaimed that the Dardanelles weie Russian. It was the most foolish thing that he did, because the Russian peasant had been told that this was not a war of annexation, that he wovdd only have peace, and he did not understand why the Dardanelles were for him. They did not have a national feeling. Senator Sterling. While Miliukov may have made that mistake, was he not regarded as an honest and patriotic. man, clevoted to the interests of the Russian people ? Col. HuEBAN. Yes. I can explain again psychologically, if you will, his failure. Even if you are an honest and able man, if you are accustomed from your very youth to work onlj' to destroy, it is very difficult for you if you are one day placed in a position to construct. Miliukov and, all his followers from their very youth never did any constructive work, because it was not possible. They only did de- structive work. All their strength had gone into the work of destroy- ing the then rulers in Russia. Now those rulers are gone, and they lire not able to construct a new government for the people. Russia is many times bigger than the United States, and it is vei'y difficult to expect from them that they do it. That is the reason why the revolution has brought no one big man. There was one in the first revolution that bid fair to become a man of some imi:)ortance, but he was killed by the Bolsheviki in Petrograd while I Avas there. Many thought that Kerensky was the man. Personally I did not like Trotsky, and I disliked Kei-ensky twice as much, r will tell you why. It was not his fault. Kerensky was a very able hiAvyer, and he fought on the side of the people against this destructive work. The Russian revolutionary liberals always worked with the people only in their minds. They thought they had actual power, but they had no real power in this provisional govern- 440 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. ment, it was only imaginary: and they started to give to tliese ignorant people radical ideas which the Russian ignorant man never could understand. Senator Sterling. They were too liberal, in other words ? Col. HrRBAx. Kerensky. as the revolution started, as everybodv knew, was the extreme left member in the provisional government. Senator Sterling. And that means radical socialist? Col. HuRBAN. He had been of the party of the social rexolutionists. Senator Sterling. And a radical? Col. Htjebajt. He had been of the radical wing. His paper, '• Del Naroda," that he started. I remember it very well, and got the first number. The boys cried. " ' Del Naroda,' the paper of Kerensky.'" I began to read, and immediately T thought, I began to hate Kerensky. I think from the first day I saw him in the Duma. All his life he had been a lawyer, 'but as he appeared in the Duma he wore a working blouse. That means that he is an actor. I saw liini in his working blouse. Though he worked for the people as a lawyer and became their minister, yet in order to show his democracy he wore a working blouse. Since that time I have seen his pictures and he is a Tery dangerous actor. He proved it by his lack of ability. I can tell you his attitude toward us. The old regime was against us. Senator Wolcott. What do you mean by " us " : the CzecJio- Slovaks ? Col. Hlrbax. Against the Czecho-Slovaks, because since 1914, when we entered into the Russian Army as vohmteer soldiers, nnr boys began to escape from the Austrian Army, and we organized our units to fight against Austria and Germany. Kerensky knew that we were absolutely against Austria-Hungary, though he would not per- mit us absolutely to form an army, because we had been the biggest enemy against Austria-Hungary, because we never compromised with Austria- Hungary. In our proclamation in the beginning of 1915 our people declared that we would never make compromises with Austria- Hungary, and if the allies should make peace with Austria-Hungary, we would start a new war again within 10 years. The old Tsar regiment was organized as the revolution started. and Miliukov, who was our big friend, was foreign minister and promptly he recognized the government of the Czecho-Slovaks, and we started to form one brigade. At that time we were on the Russian front, under Russian uniform. As the revolution started. Miliukov recognized our government and allowed us to form an army. ^Ye started in, and if we had gone along as we started, by ^lay or June, 1917, we would have had 150,000 volunteers. But unfor- tunately Kerensky came in and stopped the formation of our army. We Avent to him and asked him why it was, and he said that our army was formed on a nationalistic basis; that we were Chauvinists, and our army was on a national basis, which was natural, we having been oppressed as a nation, but Ave could not declare war and form an army as a nation. He could not understand, becaii-e he was so naive in his views. Still he spoke about internationali'^in and such stuff. But he tried to stop our forming an army as large as we wanted. It was more or less anarchy, but we did it. He forbade us, but we did it, arid we succeeded in forming an army of about 50,000 men. It was not allowed, but we did it, because it was an- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 441 nounced in Russia that we could succeed. Kerensky saw in May that he had made a mistake, as the army was gone, and he began to talk about nationalism. He came to the soldiers and began to appeal to their national feelings. He was much uglier than before, because he denied — and he should know — that these people had any national feeling. But now he began to talk about national feeling, and wanted the people to go against Germany, and the people did not understand him. Senator Sterling. He had been preaching internationalism? Col. HuEBAN. Yes. And after a while he started his first drive, and we helped him because we thought we would have an occasion to show ourselves to the world, and when he started his big offensive, as you perhaps know, only our brigade went into the offensive, and our brigade alone had a big victory, although we were surrounded because all the Russian soldiers fled away. Afterwards Kerensky came to us and talked to us because we fought and did such big things, and now he began to understand what national feeling meant. Kerensky's attitude in the beginning was that 99 per cent of the Bolsheviki were German agents, but that was only in the first month. Then Kerensky spoke and said that they could be conquered by force of arms, etc., because they were men, all of them. In June we knew more about them, and laiew that all the Bolsheviki were not Ger- man agents. You have heard Mr. Kryshtofovich say that they were not all German agents. It was not true. They were real Bolsheviki, imd they believed tliat Bolshevism would bring happiness and would bring peace. But Mr. Kerensky comes and he says that the Bol- sheviki are German agents. It was not true, and every Russian workman knew they were not German agents. Senator Wolcott. It was true for about a month ? Col. HuEBAN. It was true in the beginning. Senator Wolcott. But when Kerensky said the Bolsheviki were all German agents, it was not true then ? Col. Htjrban. It had been true all over the country, but it was no more. Senator Wolcott. It had gone all through the Russian people, then ? Col. Htjrban. Yes ; and the Russian people really believed in the ideas of the Bolsheviki. I talked with them. I have been many times in the Soviets, and I spoke with these people, and I know how real it has been and how their minds and souls have been in it. This time there was no longer a possibilitj'^ of fighting against the Bolshe- viki as German agents, because it was not true. Senator Steeling. What do you know about Kerensky's ideas in regard to disciple in the army, and his relaxation of discipline, and what effect it had on the Russian army? Col. Hueban. I can not blame Kerensky entirelj^, because the dis- cipline was gone. I can not blame him, because, as I told you, the Russian soldier had always been obedient. He did not know why, but he knew he must be obedient. Now he was told, " We are all alike, everybody," and therefore that was the end of all discipline. Senator Oveeman. He owed allegiance to nobody ? Col. Htteban. The soldier did not understand. He had been sub- ject to the high command, and that had been overthrown, and now the soldier began not to believe anybody. 442 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Sterling. Did Kerensky issue some order that the enUsted man should pay no particular respect to his superior officer ? Col. HuEBAN. No ; it is not Kerensky ; no. He can not be blamed. That was the situation on the second day of the revolution, as the Petrograd soviet formed, because on the 26th of February, as the riots occurred, and on the iTth of February, nobody would believe that the revolution would be, and those liberal people who were in the Duma were surprised, themselves. Xobody believed in it. I liave been in Petrograd and watched the streets, and I have been in the Duma, and nobody believed it was true. The revolutionary workers organized a soviet of soldiers and workers the first day. absolutely. The Duma did not know what to do. The workers on the second diiv issued an order, order Xo. 1. This was the woi-k of German agents, I believe, this order Xo. 1, and there were some people with idea'., too, who did not believe in it. It was afterwards explained. Ker- ensky can not be blamed for it — for the nonsense of the order No. 1 which was issued by the Petrograd soviet — and it was bad for the discipline of the old regime. Under such circumstances he was absohitely preparing the action for the Bolshevilii. Xow, I will say something about that. Yon know what is the idea of Bolshevism. I do not think I need to ex- plain that. In other words, while in former times the proletariat had been oppressed by the cai^italistic class, it is now vice versa, and the capitalists are now oppressed by the proletariats. It is absolutely the same. Senator Overman. The bottom rail is now on top? Col. HuRBAN. It is absolutely the same thing. As the Bolshevists started their action in Petrograd I was in Petrograd, and I have been over the streets and I have talked with them, and I saw those agents, and I have many proofs that the Bolshevists who first came to Russia were German agents. Is Lenine a German agent, and are Trotsky and these different people? This question can be answered from absolutely different points of view. From our point of view I can tell you he is a German agent, but from his point of view he will tell you he is absolutely not. He is, from his point of view, absolutely honest. I do not think Lenine will deny that he got German money. He got it and came through Germany ; but it is very interesting that he denied it afterwards. There is no doubt that he came because thev helped him. If anybody gives him money, he takes the money to realize his own ideas. I have heard Lenine talk manv times, and I think he is a foolish man — a fool. How is he a foolish man? He does not believe in facts. After the treaty of Brest-Litovsk was in- twpreted, Trotsky refused to sign the treaty, and said, " We will not fight." He said, " I can not sign this horrible peace, but we will demobilize " ; and the Gei'mans took the Russian front. Then Lenine said that everybody was on the front, and there was a very big danger that we would be surrounded. Lenine told our representa- tives that the German soldiers who were advancing were German White Guards; that the Germans had formed a special army of the bourgeois, which was coming to Russia. He said they were not the German socialists because they were starting a revolution, but they were forming a special army of White Guards — a bourgeois army. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 443 a German bourgeois army with only the bourgeois class in it — and they were advancing on Russia, and that no workmen and no peas- ants were in this army. We gave them proof, because we dealt with the Bolsheviki from the beginning. We have been with them absolutely neutral, and we saw them and gave them proof. We had many prisoners, and we showed them these people. " No," they said, " they are bourgeoisie." Such, I think, is Lenine ; all his life a man that has worked only destructively, who has worked on his table in Switzerland, in our country, and in Prague, and I do not know where. His ego is such that he absolutely goes contrary to the facts. Why should such a man as Lenine exist, or why should such a man as Stiirmer exist, who believes in a tyranny of some classes of the people, and they, too, educated men? If they should not exist, one might say. Why should Lenine, who believes the contrary, exist ? He is not necessarily a traitor or a German agent. Really he has been a German agent, de facto ; but if he got help from the Germans, if he betrayed us on the order of the Germans, he did not do it because he wanted to help the Germans ; he did it because he thought it would help to bring through his idea. You could not make Lenine believe that the allied army crushed Germany or that the Kaiser is gone because the German Army is crushed. He thinks it was his propa- ganda that caused it. Senator Wolcott. That is what Mr. Albert Rhys Williams, who was the head of the Bolshevik propaganda in Russia, says. He says that the Bolsheviki of Russia caused Germany to be beaten. Col. HuEBAN. I can not tell you, because as we retreated from Courland we were surrounded by the Germans, and we had a very difficult withdrawal from Ukrainia. We had a big- battle, and we beat the Germans there very badly, and got some prisoners, and we sent them to Moscow as examples of those White Guards, and they were all workers and socialists, and they had come into Russia. But you could never make Lenine believe it. Senator Overman. He believes he ended the war, does he not? Col. HuBBAN. He believes he brought about the restoration of peace ; and you could never make him believe that only victory made it possible, and that Wilhelm lost his throne only because he was beaten. I can not explain Trotsky like Lenine. Trotsky is much more of a real man. Trotsky is satanic. . Senator Wolcott. In other words, he is a devil ? Col. Htjbban. Yes; if you please. I can not explain myself. I have heard him speak many times, and I am of the belief that he is acting — I can not explain — because he is a very real thinking man. He does not believe in what he writes. I always .had the impression that Lenine really believes what he says; but Trotsky, never. He does not believe what he says. I can give you an example, to illustrate. It was the first attempt to overthrow the provisional government. As you know, the main force of the Bolsheviks in the beginning were the sailors at Kron- stadt and I think it was the 1st of July, 1917, or the 3d — I do not remember exactly now, as I have not got those dates right here— but the sailors from Kronstadt came to Petrograd, and they were 444 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. then a force of 10,000 men, armed from their heads to their feet, and they came on battleships and transports to Petrograd and they all disembarked and went to the Duma. I was interested to see them, and as they marched through the street in Petrograd I went out to see them, as I wanted to see them march and to look at them. All of a sudden something happened, like it always does in Kussia — somebodv shoots a shot and is gone. It was more or less an everyday occurrence in Petrograd, and if somebody shot, nobody paid any attention. The shooting came from near the houses, you know, and the bullets stmck the wall and ricocheted, and it looked like the shooting came from i;here. They had these smokeless powder cartridges. Then everybodv began shooting. In less than 15 seconds no one was on the street. I found myself alone on the corner, because they were shooting from everywhere ; they shoot, they shoot, and they shoot, in the windows of the shops and everywhere, and the whole army of 10,000 men escaped. Senator Wolcott. You mean the sailors ran? CoL Htjrban. The sailors ran, but I stayed on the corner of the street with one older man and a boy, and he used a very nasty, bad Russian word about them because they all escaped in the houses, and began to loot, and after two or three hours they came out of the houses and this disorderly crowd came before the Duma. Everybody in Petrograd knew what had happened with the heroes of Kronstadt who now came out, and naturally Trotsky knew it, too. Trotsky came out on the balcony, and I was there because I was anxious to know and to see these people, and he says, " This is the beautifulness and proudness of the Russian revolution." Those were his words. Excuse me, but how can I believe him? He is clever enough, but how can I believe him ? Afterwards in his dealings with us he tried to explain, but he will have to explain to me many times. Perhaps I choose a very difficult question when I speak of the role of the Jews in the Russian revolution, but I think something has been told which is not quite true and not just. The Jews in Russia have not been treated like human beings. Whenever a Russian spoke to a Jew he always addressed him by the use of some insulting epithet which I can not translate into English because I do not know the words, and they have always been treated in such a manner by the old Russians, and all the people have been allowed to treat them in that way, and they have really always felt themselves betweeii two enemies threatening to kill them ; but you know the Jewish people are a ver\' energetic people, and are not so ignorant as the lower classes of the Russians. Now, is it not absolutely natural that now that the revolu- tion is over and everybody is alike, everybody is free, the Russian peasant, who has been looking on, as the Jew, and especially the Russian Jew, who has been working under a very difficult task, should have gone forward. It is natural that everywhere he should liave had enough of the ignorance of most of these incapable Russians. It is also logical that the morals of the officials should be corrupt I can not deny it, because it is a fact, and it is useless to deny it, that in the Soviets from the beginning there have been a very large per- centage of Jews. It can not be denied. I can explain myself. "^ should not blame them, because it is just their revenge. It is a BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 445' human thing. He who does not believe in revenge is an idealist. Revenge is an absolute human feeling. And I think many of the men who have been in the Russian revolution are men of feeling, too. It is only natural. I can not blame them. But the Russian Jews generally, who number 8,000,000, are suffering as the Russian people are suffering. They are against the Bolshevists, the workingmen. The masses of the Jews who live in Poland are against the Soviets of the Bolsheviks, just like the Russian people, and yet they have been blamed.. That is Avhy I question it. So, as to the succegs of Trotsky, I can only explain, under such conditions, that it is nice to woi'k for Trotsky. We must not look at this from one side. Is it not worth M'hile to throw away principles and be satanic ? It is a great thing, and he will be a man who has accomplished a career. Is it not -W'orth while to deny all moral principles for such a thing? Every man is something of an actor, and he is an actor, and it must seem quite nice to him to go from the bottom to be, as he is to-day, the director of the whole of Russia. Is it not nice to kill and to do everything? Trotsky, perhaps, took money from Germany, but Trotsky will deny it. Lenine would not deny it. Miliukov proved that he got $10,000 from some Germans while he was in America. Miliukov had the proof, but he denied it, Trotsky did, although Miliukov had the proof. Senator Overman. It was charged that Trotsky got $10,000 here. Col. HuRBAN. I do not remember how much it was, but I know it was a question between him and Miliukov. Senator Overman. Miliukov proved it, did he? Col. HiTEBAN. Yes, sir. Senator Overman. Do you know where he got it from ? Col. Hurban. I remember it was $10,000 ; but it is no matter. I will speak about their starting the propaganda. The German Government knew Russia better than anybody, and they knew that with the help of those people they could destroy the Russian army. (At 5.45 o'clock p. m. the subcommittee adjourned until to-morrow. Wednesday, February 19, 1919. at 10.;!0 o'clock a. m.) BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 19, 1919. I"fiSTrED States Senate, SUBCOMJHTTEE OF THE CoAIAIITTEE (IN THE JUDICTARY, Washington, D. C. The subcommittee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., in room 226, Senate Office Building, Senator Lee S. Overman presiding. Present: Senators Overman (chairman). Wolcott, Nelson, and Sterling. TESTIMONY OF COL. V. S. HURBAN— Resumed. Senator Overman. Colonel, you had just arrived at the statement about the Bolsheviki, I believe. You may proceed, now. Col. Hi'RBAN. Yesterday I tried to explain what had been before the big Russian revolution. All was well prepared for the anarchy which is to-day in Russia. I would explain that the Bolsheviks alone, as they are, could not be the cause of this anarchy. Bolshevism is, as I see it, an absolutely natural social business. A good, honest government in a state has in it the germs of this disease also; but if it is a government that has been honestly democratic, it goes through slight influences only. On the other hand, a dishonest government, an autocratic government, must succumb. So suc- cumbed Russia ; and, as you see, is succumbing, partly only, Germany. Senator Nelson. What you mean is that where they get this Bol- shevik germ and have lived under a bad government like that of Russia under the Czar, it takes them longer to get over the disease than Avhen they are under a mildei- form of government ? Col. HuBBAN. Yes; that is what I mean. These germs are every- where. The germs are in e\"ery state, and it is an absolutely natural occurrence; because everybody who is not content does not know why he is not content. He has not natural possibility to get money, or he is unable to get money, and he is discontented. He tries to help himself, and if he can not get it the honest way he tries to make it otherwise. . Senator SteklijSkj. Wliat do you think the leaders of the Dunui, or through the Constituent Assembly, might have been able to ac- complish if it had not been for Kerensky and the Bolshevik element that followed? Col. HuRBAN. I did not understand one word, then, Senator. Senator Sterling. Do you not think that the leaders of the Duma would have been able to work out, through the Constituent Assembly, 447 448 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. a good, demociiitic government if they had been let alone: if Kerensky had not come in. or the Bolsheviki later ( Col. hiiiBAN. It is very hard to answer such a (jiiestion because, as I know the Eussian people — and I ha\'e been 10 years in Russia and I know the Russian people — as I believe, it ^^•as in an anarchistic state of mind since the first day of the revolution, and the honest and the liberal leaders of the Duma, and otherwise, they have been not prepared for this work. Senator Sterling;. I know, but now if tlie extremists had ndt got in their work, do you not think that a democratic form of government Avould have been worked out through the Constituent Assembly? Col. Hi^RBAX. Oh. yes: that is true. It is absolutely true, and there would not have been such a disorganization as there has been. If vou could see the Russian people — the Russians haxe been drunken with the ideas of the Bolsheviks. They were a drunken people. If yuu could see them you would look on this not as merely the work of agents, but in the start it was absolutely natural. I can not deny the jDOSsibility of some people having their ends — to oppress. It is a very human thing. Why should only the upper classes oppress, as they knew before ? Why shoidd not the lowei' classes oppress ? And such a thing is absolutely imdemocratic — that idea of democracy has nothing to do here — because the Bolshevik doctrine has absohitely nothing to do with justice, has absolutely nothing to do with honesty, and has absolutely nothing to do Avith culture or with progress. It has absolutely nothing in common with those things; and anyliody who says otherwise — who has been in Russia and who says other- wise — is blind, stupid, or dishonest and a liar. I told about my experiences, first directly about the Bolsiieviki. what I saw first, and in Petrograd, as they began the action, until afterwards there came the official connection with them and I dealt with them, and as they betrayed us : I told yesterday about the Bol- shevik German agents ; I told about the leaclers ; I told about Lenine and Trotsky and others. But, as the revolution started, there came to Russia many, many agitators. I speak now about the first week or the first month. I believe that I am telling the truth, and I want to tell the truth. I believe 99 per cent of the Bolshevik agitators in the beginning were paid German agents. I can illustrate how it was. There was the system of meetings; after the revolution came the meetings, on the street, everywhere: e\'erywhere meetings. There would be standing on the sti'eet three or four talking, or perhaps there may have been 200 of them, and one of these men began to talk, and he agitated the question about all power to the Soviets: peace, bread, etc. No- body told the people, but it was demagogy — speeches. I listened to these people many times and I could find only one man who was a Russian and who believed in these things, who did this. All the other men who spoke had been prisoners of war, Germans and Aus- trians who had learned some Russian; Finns, Swedes, and different people that the Germans sent. They knew how the Russian people were sentimental, and how they had been drunken about this idea of liberty, freedom, and law. They believed it. Once there was a big meeting on the street, and I was going by and I listened to these men. Senator Oveemax. Very few of them ai'e Russians? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 449 Col. HuKBAN. No; these people were Eussian soldiers and sailors. Senator Overman. I mean the people who were talking to these Eussians ? Col. Htirban. Yes. The first word that I heard I knew he was not a Eussian who was speaking. I speak German, too, and I heard the Germans talking. T know their accent. If somebody talks Eus- sin — an Englishman, a German, or a Frenchman — I know him, be- cause I know them ; I know their languages. I immediately saw that it was a German speaking, and he was speaking against the war, against the provisional government; he was saying that the army should be d'emObilized, and that there should be peace, peace, peace. Generally, I was a very patient listener, and I did not mix up, but this time I wps excited, and I asked him, " Who are you, that you advocate so for these people? Who are you; what nationality are you'? Where are you coming from, and what from? " The answer that I got, not from him, will show you how it is possible that such a big trouble came in Eussia. I was stopped in my questioning bj^ the Eussians — the real Eussians. They attacked me and asked me, "What do you speak about the nation for? It is notliing who he is, what he is, or from where he comes. The difference is what he says." I was stopped, and I had to go away, because they said " There is nothing in nationality." They believed it; and he laughed at me; and I had to go. If I had told them, ''Listen, it is a German ! He advocates his cause; he does not advocate your cause," they woidd say, "No, no; no nationality. We are all brothers. We must make peace." Under such circumstances was started the action. AVho supported, in the first start of the revolution, the Bolsheviks ? They were abused by demagogues. Trotsky was not there in the beginning, but there were those other people; and there were German agents, and those who are all agents, all the policemen and all these people who had been employed by the provisional government; because the police and the gendarmes, they had been abolished, and they went to the Bolsheviks and they began to agree with the Bolsheviks. I knew a policeman — I can not say a friend of mine, but an officer whom I knew — and I talked to him. In about the second or the third month after the revolution I met him in one of the Bolshevik organizations. I asked him, " Listen, you do not mean to say that you have had this quick turning of your mind, and everything? " He looked at me, and he said, "What could I do? I mvist live." On that the supportei's of the Bolsheviks in the beginning were of these two ele- ments from the old regime. You would find everybody there. All thes^ spies, if I can use this word, the high-cultured spy system of the old regime — because if anything was high, absolutely, it was the spy system in Eussia, the interior spy system — all these people have gone "to the Bolsheviks. I am talking about the first month and the second month. These ideas must make drunk, not those who were ignorant but a very good hearted and sentimental people like the Russians'. It made them drunk; and really, in July, all the workers and all the soldiers, a big per cent of them, were Bolsheviks. They thought that they were. It was not based deep in conscience, but a Russian man, an average Eussian peasant worker, understands lib- Brty I should say, " zoologically," if I can use that word. To illus- 85723—19 29 450 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. trate, many times I talked to such a soldier, and I saw how lie under- stood it. It was, " What is thine is mine, and what is mine, vou nave nothing to do with it." That is first. Second, the Russian peasant is a proprietor, a first-class proprietor. He wants his own soil. He wants to be the owner ; that is, the first-class owner. Senator Sterling. The proprietor, you mean? Col. HuRBAN. Yes, sir; he wants to be the owner. He wants to •own in that sense, as we understand it. Senator Nelson. He is land hungry? Col. HuRBAN. Yes; the fact is that he has been land hungry; and they commenced to gi^e him soil, and in this matter I must say not only how it has been done all the time, not only the Bolsheviki are guilty, but the provisional government and all the social parties es- pecially, are ahead of everyone, because no one told to the people tlie fact that liberty brings a burden, and he who will be free, he must work. Nobody told the Eussian people, the Russian workers or the Russian peasants, " You are free, but you have some duties. You must work." All the time there was not work. No one worked; not under the provisional government, not under the Bolsheviki; but they spoke, and the Bolsheviki were more demagogic about the rights; and the Ruasian is an ignorant man, he understands about the rights, that it is that he can do what he wants, and that is the liberty. You have joked, many time, about how they say " Now is freedom." Senator Nelson. Were vou in Russia during the revolution of March. 1917? Col. HuRBAN. Yes; I was in Petrograd. Senator Nelson. You Avere in Petrograd? Col. Htjrban. Yes. Senator Nelson. You are a Czecho-Slovak? Col. HuEBAN. Yes. Senator Nelson. How came you to be there? How came you to go there ? Were you a prisoner of war ? Col. Htjrban. No; but I was, before the war started, in Russia, and in the Russian Army as a volunteer. Senator Nelson. You served in the Russian Army? Col. Htjrban. Yes. I served in the Russian Army. Senator Nelson. And you were stationed with the army, in Petro- grad? Col. Hueban. No; when the revolution started I was a member of our provisional government of the Czecho-Slovak National Coun- cil, of the Russian branch of the Czecho-Slovak National Council. Senator Nelson. You fought in the Russian Army ? * Col. Hueban. Yes. Senator Overman. Were you wounded? Col. Htjrban. Yes, sir. Senator Overman. How many times? Senator Nelson. Did you go into the provisional council, you say? Col. Hueban. No; we had our own organization. Senator Nelson. In the army? Col. Hueban. No; we formed, in Russia, from the provisional arm}' BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 451 Senator Nelson. No; I am coming to the army. You were with the Russian Army ? Col. Htjrban. Yes. Senator Nelson. Where were you stationed when you were in the army? Col. HuEBAN. I have been on the front all the time. Senator Nelson. When did you leave the army ? Col. HuEBAN. I began to work about the organization of our army in the end of 1916. Senator Nelson. No; when did you quit the army? When did you leave ; when did you quit the front ? Col. HuEBAN. Since 1916 I have been in Petrograd. Senator Nelson. How came you to be in Petrograd at that time? Was your detachment or regiment sent there ? Col. HuEBAN. No; 1 have been sent to work, to Petrograd. Senator Nelson. Who sent you? Col. HuiiBAN. From the Russian command. Senator Nelson. What were you to do at Petrograd ? Senator Overman. What were you engaged in? Senator Nelson. What did they send you to Petrograd for ? Col. Htjeban. About the organization of the Czecho-Slovak Army. Senator Nelson. About the organization of the Czecho-Slovak Army? Col. HuEBAN. Yes. Senator Nelson. Were there anyCzecho-Slovaks at Petrograd at that time? Col. Hueban. We have been there ; we have been on paper ; we had our organization — political organization — there. Senator Nelson. Oh, you had, in Petrograd ? Col. HtJEBAN. Yes ; and we tried to form our army under the old regime, but the old regime was against us, and we participated in the fighting with the old regime to bring through our army. Senator Nelson. Then you went there to help organize the Czecho- slovaks who were in Petrx)gracl, who had been there before the war, and you started to do that? Col. Htjeban. No, no ; that is not so. Senator Nelson. I understood you to say that there wus an asso- ciation of Czecho-Slovaks. Col. Hueban. Our people were all through Russia. Senator Nelson. No; come down to Petrograd. Was there any organization there? Col. Hueban. Yes; but they had been all over. That had been the center. Senator Nelson. There was no organization? Senator Wolcott. May I ask a question there ? Senator Nelson. Yes ; certainly. ' Senator Wolcott. When did the Czecho-Slovak people set them- selves up as a Republic? Col. Hueban. The Czecho-Slovak people declared war in manifests given out in August, 1915. We forhially declared war against Austro-Hungary and Germany. Senator Wolcott. August 4, 1914? Col. Hueban. In 1915. 452 BOLSHEVIK PE0PA6ANDA. Senator Nelson. When did you leave the front and go to Petro- grad ? Col. Htjrban. It was in 1916. Senator Nelson. How long did you stay in Petrograd? Col. Htjeban. I have been in Petrograd since 1916, and until — no* I have been going from Petrograd to see our army and to the front' biit I have been in Petrograd from March 1, 1918. Senator Nelson. 1917? Senator Overman. 1918, he said. Col. HuRBAN. 1918. I have been six months in hospital. Senator Nelson. During all that time? Col. Htjrban. Yes, sir. Senator Sterling. Did you belong to a Czecho-Slovak organiza- tion while in the Russian Army ? Col. HuRBAN. Oh, no. While I was in the Russian Army I was in the Russian Army absolutely as a Russian volunteer. Senator Sterling. I did not know but what you had a regiment of Czecho-Slovaks with the RuSvsian Army. Col. HuRBAN. Yes. Senator Sterling. To which you belonged; is that right? Senator Overman. You stated yesterday that you had 50,000, and you wanted 100,000. Col. HuRBAN. It was our own army. We had afterwards our own army. Senator Nelson. But the Czecho-Slovak forces did not go to Pet- rograd, nor they did not go to Moscow. Col. HuRBAN. Why Senator Nelson. The Czecho-Slovaks did not go to Petrograd or even to Moscow? Col. HuRBAN. No. Senator Nelson. They were in Siberia. Col. HuRBAN. No ; we have not been. We have been on the front. Senator Nelson. The Czecho-Slovaks were in Siberia. Col. HuRBAN. No; it is not so. Senator Wolcott. He is referring to Czecho-Slovaks who went out of Austria — left Austria — and went into Russia and joined the Eus- sian forces. Col. HxiRBAN. On the front. Senator Wolcott. You were born in Hungary ? Col. Htjrban. Yes. Senator Wolcott. He was born in Hungary, and when the war broke out he went into Russia and volunteered in the Russian Army. Col. HuRBAN. Yes. Senator Wolcott. A great many other Czecho-Slovaks did that too, did they not ? Col. Htjrban. Yes ; and then we started our trip from the Russian front, where we fought with the Germans; we started our tnp through Russia — to France through Siberia. That is the reason we were in Siberia. Senator Wolcott. After the war started a great many Czecho- slovaks deserted the Austrian Army and surrendered ? Col. Htjrban. Yes. ' , Senator Wolcott. And you took them into the Russian Army and organized a brigade, did you not ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 453 Col. HuRBAN. Yes. Senator Wolcott. And you fought with them as a brigade of Czecho-Slovaks under the Eussian command ? Col. HuRBAN. Yes. Senator Wolcott. And you were with that brigade? Col. HuRBAN. No; I was not with this brigade, because I had been detached to Brussiloff's staff. I was on his staff. Senator Overman. You were on the general staff? Col. HuRBAN. Yes; I was on Brussiloff's staff. Senator Wolcott. Where is he — up in Petrograd ? Col. HuRBAN. No ; he is in the army yet. Senator Wolcott. You went up to Petrograd afterwards ? Col. HuRBAN. Yes. Senator Wolcott. And why did you leave the general staff and go to Petrograd ? Col. Htjrbax. Because I wanted to work with our own people in our own work. Senator Wolcott. What do you mean by " our own work " ? Col. HuRBAN. Because we were at that time organized all through the war work in our struggle against Austro-Hungary, and because we had many war prisoners in Russia, we tried to make from them a force to help Bussia against Austro-Hungary. This division of men which has been known from our own country, which worked with the people, they started this work. , Senator Wolcott. You went to Petrograd to do that work, did you? Col. Htjrban. Yes. Senator Wolcott. To organize the Czecho-Slovak prisoners into a fighting force ? Col. HrrKBAN. Yes. Senator Wolcott. That was your business at Petrograd? Col. Htjrban. Yes; that was my business at Petrograd; and at that time it was a very difficult business, because at that time the old regime was against us. But I had been in Russia a long time, and I had many friends, and so, through other people, more or less secretly we organized our force ; and as the revolution came our organization grew very quickly. I will explain afterwards about our dealings with the Bolsheviki. I will not argue more with the ideology of the Bolsheviki. I want to show you how they put their ideas into practice. Nothing about these things has been said, very much, here, nor can I say much of them that is really true. Senator Nelson. Just tell us what the practices were of the Bol- sheviki. That is what we want to know. Col. Htjrban. Yes ; that is what I will tell you. The reason the Bol- sheviki succeeded so very quickly at first, you know, they promised peace and bread and Senator Wolcott. They promised land ? Col. Htjrban. Yes; and land. The provisional government prom- ised that, too; -but they promised peace and international brother- hood at the beginning of their agitation. As the Eussian Army began to collapse the provisional government again introduced the death penalty. It was very drastic action to 454 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. take against them, and the Bolsheviki really succeeded with their argument against the death penalty; but you know that since the Bolsheviki have been in power they have enforced the death penalty. That is everyday bread for them. That is one thing they put into practice. You know how it has been in Petrograd. I want to tell you several stories in order to illustrate the attitude of the Bolsheviks toward us. When the Kerensky government col- lapsed the only military force left in Russia was ourselves. Senator Wolcott. That is, the Czecho-Slovaks ? Col. HuKBAX. Yes; composed of 50,000 men, and we could have done with Eussia what we wanted. We had all of Siberia in our hands, and we could do in Eussia absolutely what we wanted. There was no force to do anything against us, because the Bolshevik armies did not exist. The army which had been on the front fled in dis- order, looting, and at this time the Germans and the Bolsheviks had only one force which was a real force, and that was the Letts. At this time they had about six regiments of Letts. Senator Sterling. Making how many men, the six regiments? Col. HtTRBAN. About 15,000 men. Li regard to the Letts, the Letts are a great people, and they fought the Germans. They hated the Germans. They are the greatest enemies of the Germans, and they fought very bravely in the Eussian ranks against the Germans, as voluntary regiments. After the collapse of the Eussian armies, the Germans occupied their territory, and the Lettish regiments stayed in Eussia. The Bolsheviks promised them money and everything, because the Bolsheviks counted that they would be best supported by people who did not understand them, a foreign people, and they tried to convert those Letts. The Letts suffered from the German landowners, and we must not wonder at their revolutionary ideas because of the treatment they have received from the German landowners in Eussia, the Russian and German landowners who had been supported by the old regime. They have suffered so that their radical socialistic ideas are for them very nice and verj^ agreeable. The Letts were away from their homes, and they had nowhere to go, and had nothing to live on, and the Bolsheviki promised them money and plenty of money, and why not take it? It is a good life, and you know what it means for a soldier who has fought one year or two years in the trenches. His moral judgment is not such as yours who are here in peace and in orderly circumstances. If you see your friends die every day, and these other horrors, your mind is changed and your judgment is altered. I do not wonder that the Letts have been won so quickly and so easily as they have been won to the Bolsheviks. Senator Nelson. Go on and tell us what they did there. Col. Htjrban. At this time, as I told you, the Bolsheviks had only those Letts, because is to the Eussian units of Eed Guards, it is to laugh. Senator Xelson. Did they form what they call Eed Guards? Col. HuEBAN. It is for children; it is for boy scouts. Senator Nelson. The beginning of the Bolshevik army, then, was this detachment of Letts. Did they recruit any more? Col. Htjrban. I can not say it was the beginning of the Bolshevik armv. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 455i Senator Nelson. Did not the Bolsheviki form an Army ? Col. HuRBAN. Yes, they did. Senator Nelson. And they started with the Letts, did they not? Col. HuEBAN. No; the Letts have been fighting three years. They have been a ready army. Senator Nelson. Did they not take the Letts into the Red army ? Col. HuEBAN. Yes; they took them. Senator Nelson. I say they started with them. Now, where did they get the rest of their forces — from what sources ? Col. Htteban. At this time they had a sort of burglars' army, but it was not a military force. We had been retreating from the Ukraine because the Germans were advancing. The commander in chief of the armies of the soviet socialistic republic was the title of the commandant of the Bolshevik army, .and his army consisted of about — I do not know how many thousands. Senator Nelson. Did tliey get together an army of some kind there in Petrograd? Did the Bolsheviki get together an army in Petrograd ? Col. HxJEBAN. In Petrograd were the Red Guards, but they had only the Letts there, and it was not a considerable force. Senator Nelson. Well, after they got the Letts did they increase their army. Did they get any more into the Red Guards ? Col. Htjeban. Yes. Senator Nelson. Where did they get them from ? Col. HuEBAN. From the people. Senator Nelson. From the people ? Col. HuEBAN. Yes. Senator Nelson. What class of people? Col. HuEBAN. Pardon me. and I will explain. You can not un- derstand if I jump around. Senator Nelson. How big a Red army did they get? Col. HuEBAN. When? Senator Nelson. Well, when it started. Col. HuEBAN. It is very important when. Senator Nelson. Tell us about the Red army. Go on and tell its about it. Col. HuEBAN. In the beginning there were nothing but the Bol- sheviks. Senator Nelson. I understand there was nothing in the begin- ning, but go on and tell us how they got their Red Army. Col. Htjeban. Pardon me, and I will explain my experiences and what the attitude of thei Bolsheviki has been toward us, and I thint if I explain it you will have a picture of their attitude, and after- a while I can answer all your questions. I have not prepared any- thing, and I must fight with the language, too. As I told you, when the Bolsheviki started we were the only force. All of the Russians asked us to overthrow the Bolsheviki, but since the Bolsheviki assumed power we have been absolutely neutral, aiid we had many reasons for that attitude. First, we have- been guests in Russia, and we did not have the right to mix our- selves in absolutely Russian questions. That was one thing. The- second reason was that we saw the absolute inability of the pro- visional o-overnment and of the other socialistic parties to get, out' 456 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. of this trouble, and we thought that the Bolslieviki, because thev have nice ideas, would die from themselves, and through the trouble there would arise in Russia a real force which would unite the whole nation. That was our point of view, and that is why we maintained absolute neutrality toward the Bolsheviki. ^^Hien the Bolsheviki assumed control, at that time we were on the front in the I'kraine. and the Bolsheviki took Petrograd, and afterwards took Moscow, and then took the headquarters of Milinkov, and now the only province which is not under the soviet government of the Bolsheviki is the Ukraine. ' Now, the Bolsheviki formed some kind of an army from the Letts, because the Letts had been held in Petrograd and Moscow to save the gOA^ernment, and they made some kind of an army from the people that they got there, but it was not many thousand men. Then, what they call the Red Ciuards went to the X^'^kraine. and in the Ukraine there was the Ukrainian Army which was as absolutely worthless from a military standpoint as the Bolsheviki. As a mili- tary organization, they were as absolutely worthless as the Bolshe- viki. We were in the middle between them. Now, what did we do? '^A'e maintained absolute neutrality. We only guarded the people and saw that there was no murder and no looting in the zone where we were ; but if the Ukrainian army came throug|h our place we let them pass, and if the Bolsheviks came we let them pass; but we proved absoluteh' to the Bolsheviks that we were not against them. We did not sympathize with them, every- body knows, but we were not against them, because we had no right to be against them. Second, if we would fight with them we could not go to anyone whom we could trust. There was nobody in Russia to form a govern- ment ; no one party, no one organization ; nobody was there. That is the reason our attitude toward the Bolslieviki was absolutely neutral. We helped to maintain order. At this time one of their commanders, ■wlho had formerly been a supporter of the old Tsar's regime, got some hundred million of rubles and went away. I do not know whether he has been killed or not. At this time most of the Bolshevik commissars were from the former guard officers. I will tell you about two of them to illustrate how these people have acted. They came to the Ukraine and they fought, they came to Kiev and they fought, and in Kiev there were many Russian officers, who ^-ere unorganized, and they were murdered like chickens. ^ It is true that perhaps we could fight such a thing, because it would only take one battalion to beat their armies — ^that is, one bat- talion from our real military force — but we could not do it, because we fought for our cause and we were saving our army to fight the Germans; and at this time. we agreed with the allied commander that our armjy would be a part of the allied armv, a part of the French Army. We accepted the highest command of the French, and our army has been regarded as a part of the French Army. At this time, as I say, we had found a way to get out of Russia and to fight for our cause, because when the peace conference came, if the Czecho- slovaks had an army, the peace conference must hear us. They could not refuse," because we would not demobilize. It was our plan that we must have an army. We must be represented as a nation in the BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 457 peace conference. We would not let our army be demobilized by any- body. It was our plan, and we brought it through, as you know, and our representatives are in the peace conference. Senator Ovehman. Now, Colonel, can you not tell us something of the terrorism '( Col. Htjebax. I can tell you about the Bolsheviki. They main- tained a secret diplomacy. When the Bolsheviks came into power we dealt with them, and we have dealt with them from the begin- ning. I told them, " You are here, and it happens that we are here. Let us go out. We do not care about you. Let us ^o out from Rus- sia. Our plan is to go to France. We have helped to crush Austria- Hungary, which forced upon you the Brest-Litovsk treaty." Senator Nelson. Did you go out of Russia to France? Col. HuEBAX. We started to go. Senator Nelson. How far did you go? Col. Htjkban. I myself came to the United States. Senator Nelson. I do not mean you. I mean the Czecho-Slovak army. Col. Htjrbax. As you know, many of us were in Vladivostok, and that is what I will tell you. Now, not to make a long story, we dealt with the commissars of the Bolshevik Government and asked them to let us go out, and one waj' was through Siberia. We said: " We are absolutely loyal to you. Let us go through Siberia." At this time it was in the beginning of March. After the Brest-Litovsk treaty the German representatives came to Moscow, in the foreign department of Mr. Tchitcherin. I do not Imow whether Mr. Reed from America has been there, but Mr. Williams can tell you that he met there German representatives, German officers, who acted as Russians. Mr. Reed has been there and talked to them, and he must know it. Our 50,000 men on the western front was nothing, but the political force of our army has been bigger than our one army. The political force of our army corps of 50,000 men has been three or four times stronger than any of the allies, because we have been a regular army from this state against which we are fighting. You understand me? So the Germans made a pressure to disorganize us and stop us. They did that. They tried it. We made an agreement with them that we would prove our neutrality, and we gave them all our arms. We disarmed. We had a great deal of arms. We disarmed, and the Bolsheviki allowed us to go out, but afterwards, after we started our trip, part of our force was in Vladivostok and the other part was on its way to Siberia, 6,000 miles away. When our 50,000 men were on their way to Siberia, 6,000 miles away, we were attacked by the Bolsheviki ; not by the Bolshevik government, but these attacks were made by German and Austrian prisoners. The Bolshevik government organized the German prisoners and the German younger officers, not socialists. The commanders of the Bolshevik armies against us were not socialist Germans, but were Prussian officers, different noble- men and everything, and they attacked us, stating that we were going to help japan, and imperialistic government, and in view of that they attacked us and attempted to destroy us. It was the order of Trotsky to disorganize us and send us to the prison camps as prisoners, and we were disarmed. You know the strength of the Bolsheviki. We 458 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. had been disarmed and our train had only about 10 rifles and some hand grenades, and, as you know, we were attacked by thousands armed with machine guns ; but everywhere we succeeded, and all of Siberia was in our hands in one week. Everywhere the red armies were disarmed, and we started our trip to go out. Afterwards, as you know, came the intervention, and we have been asked by the allies to stay there and hold the Ural front, and not to let the Germans get into Siberia a foot. Senator Overman. Now come down to Petrograd and the condi- 1 ions among the people in Petrograd, and the terrorism. Col. HuRBAN. One question which is asked many times is, " How . is it possible that 3 per cent can reign over 180,000,000 ? How is it possible ? "What you say is not true. The Bolsheviks must be more in Russia." It is absolutely true. I agree with those who have told you that the workmen are not Bolsheviks, the peasants are not Bolsheviks, but the Bolsheviks are only people who are starving, who haAe not got food, and go in the red army because there they get food. They are the Letts and the Cliinese and the Magyars and Germans. The Bolsheviks are ruling absolutely only by tenor. The Eussian people are accustomed to terror. They liave been obedient to tlie old regime because the old regime governed by terrorism. The Bol- sheviks are clever men. They know with whom they are dealing, and they use the same methods, only ill a more brutal manner. The red army is now a real, organized military force. It has been organized by German officers, and a large number of the former Russian officers have been forced into it, ha^'ing no other way to live. The red army is now cruelly disciplined, much more cruelly than it was under the Czar's regime, and with such units you do not need much terrorism. Without any scruples, with shooting and looting and killing you 'can reign with a few people over many, many men. The other Russian organizations to-day, the socialists parties, the bourgeoisie, the democratic parties, and the libertal parties, are ab- solutely unable to do anything. Senator Overman. On account of the terror? Col. Htjrban. On account of weakness and the inability to unite themselves and understand the big task that is before them. If you were to throw out the Bolsheviks to-day and leave only the Russians you would have exactly the same condition as you have under the Bolsheviks. You would have the Mensheviks, the social revolution- ists, the Lettish, the Siberian government, the Bolsheviks. You would have 20 governments, and no one government could make order. You see, half of Siberia is not yet free. They can not organ- ize a strong government, and that is why they now reign absolutely by terror. Senator Overjiax. You are making an argument which we all agree is a good one, but I want to know the facts of the reign of terror in those countries. Col. HuRBAN. I can tell you what I saw in Petrograd. Senator Nelson. That is what we want you to tell us — what you saw. We do not care to have any argument. We do not want your argument. We want you to tell us what you saw and heard. Col. HuRBAN. These are facts that I tell. Everybody has his way. It is verA' hard to tell. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 459- Senator Nelson. What did you see the red guard do in Petro- grad? Col. HuKBAN. Just as I have described here. The red guard has been absolutely undisciplined. They are absolutely criminals. You have looting, killing ; and in Kiev many officers — I do not know how many, but I heard 5,000 — have been killed like chickens. Senator Overman. What became of the old Russian officers in the irmy, who fought so well? Col. Htjrban. Some escaped to Siberia. Some stayed there, and a great number of them have been killed. Senator Nelson. By the Bolsheviki ? 'Col. Hurban. By the Bolsheviki, yes; the greater number of' ihem. Those who did not j6in with them, most of them have been killed. It is not such a stoi-y. I had been in the hospital, and the first time I went out I went on the street, and I saw a Russian officer who had been wounded. I had civilian clothes on, and he had a uniform. We came to a red guard, and he shoots him down with me. Such things we have every day. Senator Overman. Thev are shooting people on the streets every day? Col. Hurban. Yes. Senator Nelson. When did you leaA^e Petrograd ? Col. Htjrban. In the beginning of March, 1918. Senator Nelson. Last March? Col. Hurban. Yes. Senator Overman. You were sent over here by your country as a representative ? Col. Hurban. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. You are a delegate from the Czecho-Slavs? Col. Hurban. I am now military attache here in our legation. Senator Nelson. You have a legation here ? Col. Hurban. Yes, sir. Senator Overman. AVho is your minister? Col. Hurban. Mr. '-. Senator Nelson. The government you hope to form in Europe Col. Hurban. We have formed it. Senator Nelson. That is not a part of Hungary ; it is Bohemia and Moravia? Col. Hurban. Slovakia is a part of Hungary. Senator Nelson. The government you propose to form there, or have formed, as you say, is Bohemia, or what the Germans call Perma, and then Moravia or Moraine, and what you call Slovakia. Col. Hurban. Silesia and Slovakia ; yes. Senator Nelson. And that constitutes the new State of Bohemia? What name have you given it? Col. Hurban. We do not care about the name. We have much more. Senator Nelson. You have given the state some name, have you not? Col. Hurban. Yes. Senator Overman. What do you call it? Col. Hurban. I do not know, myself, yet how it will be. Senator Nelson. You are likely to call it Bohemia, are you not ? 460 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Col. Htjrban. No ; we do not like that name. Senator Nelsox. That is the old name. Col. HuRBAN. Because many people, if yon say Bohemia, think they are gypsies. Senator Nelson. What is the Czech name for Bohemia? Col. Htjrbax. The Czechs. What they call it now is not Boheniia, ;but Czechs. Senator Nelson. You call them Czechs? Col. HuRBAN. Czechs and Czecho-Slovaks. Senator XELStix. Is that the name bf the country, Czechs? Col. HxjRBAN. No: Czechs is like English. Senator Nelson. Well, that is the name of the people. What do ,Vou call the country in your language — in the Czech language? Col. HtjRban. Czecho, and Czecho-Slovaks are the people. ■ ■. Senator Nelson. We call it in English Bohemia, and the Germans {*all it Perma. Now, what do you call it? What do the Bohemians -call it in their language ? Col. Hurbax. They call a part Bohemia, because Bohemia is only •one part. Senator Nelson. Well, you do not answer the question. Why do you not tell us something? Have not the Bohemians a name for their .^country ? Col. Htjrban. Now; the new state? Senator Nelson. No ; have they not had a name for their country '. Col. Htjrban. Sure. Senator Nelson. In the Bohemian language ? Col. Htjrban. Czecho. Senator Nelson. Is that the name of it? Col. Htjrban. Yes. Senator Nelson. That is the Bohemian name for the country? Col. Htjrban. Yes ; for one part of it, one state. Senator Nelson. What is the Czech name for Moravia? Col. Htjrban. It is Moravia, and then Silesia and Slovakia; but how it will be called the next time, I do not know. Senator Nelson. The capital of your new state is Prague? Col. Htjrban. Yes; Prague. Senator Nelson. Do you take in any part of Silesia ? Col. Htjrban. It is a question for the peace conference now. Senator Overjian. Where is Prague — in what province? Col. Htjrban. It is in Bohemia. Now, I want to tell you about this terror. As we started our trip the Bolsheviki everywhere tried to attack us, and they used this terror. Senator Nelson. In order that we may get a clear idea — ^how did you get out of the country? You left there in March. Which way did you come out of the country? Did you come by Vladivostok? Col. Htjrban. I was with our troops, and we came with the first train which was on the way, and we came to Vladivostok. Our presi- dent has been here in this country. Senator Nelson. Tell us what you saw on your journey. What did the Czecho-Slovaks do there ? Tell us about that. Col. Htjrban. I have been going as a member of our provisional government. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 461 Senator Nemon. I know, but coming through on the railroad to- Vladivostok, did you not see any Czecho-Slovak forces ? Col. HxTEBAN. 1 have been in those forces. Senator Nelson. Then, why not tell us ? Col. HuBBAN. That is what I am telling. Senator Oveeman. Go ahead. Col. HtiEBAN. I can tell you something like that. The train that I was on had about 900 soldiers on it — one battalion- -and as we- came through we gave our arms away to prove our loyalty toward the Bolsheviks. At every station where there was a soviet we were- siirrounded by red guards — so-called red guards, for the most part Germans — and we had some arms, and in the night we were all sur- rounded by machine guns, and they came in and said we must give up all the rest of our arms or we would be shot down. We began to talk with the Russians, but not with the Germans. The Germans we did not talk with ; we killed them. You could argue with these people because they knew we were not afraid s Bryant. I suppose they are. Senator King. You, of course, kne^v of your husband's propaganda work in Russia I ]\Iiss Bryant. Of course I did. Senator Kino. And participated with him in that work? Miss Bryant. Oh, I object when you say propaganda work, ilay I be allowed an explanation? Senator King. Very well, you participated with him in propa- ganda work? ]Miss Brfant. I never did. Senator Kino. When did vou leave Russia? Miss Bryant. I left after the Constituent Assembly had been dissolved. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 471 Senator King. What date? Miss Bryant. That was in the hitter part of January. Senator King. Of last year, 1918 ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator King. You then went to Stockholm ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator King. And you carried with you when you went to Stock- holm this statement or passport given by the Bolshevik govern- ment, did you? Miss Bryant. Yes: I did. I went as a courier. Senator King (reading) : This is givpn to a representative of the American Social Democracy, an inter- nationalist and comrade — Louise Bryant. Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator King (reading) : The military revolutionary committee of the Petrograd Council of Workers' and Soldiers' Deputies gives her the right of free travel Miss Bryant. No ; that is another. There are two passes. One is a reporter's pass to the front. Senator King. You are denominated a " comrade " by the Bol- shevik! ? Miss Bryant. All persons in Russia are comrades who are not enemies, so that has no significance. Just as in the French revolution people were called citizens, in the Russian revolution they are called comrades. Senator King. Would they have called a representative of this country " comrade " ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Robins was called " comrade." Senator King. Would they call Mr. Francis " comrade " ? Miss Bryant. Mr. Francis was not popular in Russia and they did not think that he represented America. They thought Col. Robins did. Senator Nelson. Who thought so ? Miss Bryant. The Russian people very largely; all the Russian people felt that Col. Robins was a true representative of America; that he was a more representative American than Ambassador Fran- cis was. They considered Mr. Francis to be an old man, entirely out of sympathy with the revolutionary movement. Senator Wolcott. And they felt that he — Mr. Robins — was in sympathy with the revolutionists ? Miss Bryant. Not exactly; but they felt that Mr. Francis was hostile to the Socialists, and they felt that Robins was the better man to bring about amicable relations. Senator Nelson. Did you not know that Mr. Robins was not the representative of our country ? Miss Bryant. Col. Robins was the head of the Red Cross there. Senator Nelson. But the Red Cross did not represent our Govern- ment. Miss Bryant. Nevertheless, we worked with Col. Robins. In fact, Col. Robins acted as the intermediary between Ambassador Francis and the Soviets, because Francis felt that he could not get in touch with them, that there was a certain feeling of hostility, and so Rob- 472 . BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ins went to them in place of Francis, and if you will call Kobins he will tell you all this himself. Senator Wolcott. Do you know where he is ? Miss Bryant. He is in New York, and I know absolutely that he is very anxious to testify before this committee, and he has not been asked. Senator Wolcott. What is his address? Miss Beyaxt. Care of his sister, Mary Dryer. I could get him myself on short notice. Senator King. I want to call attention to one other matter. You had a certificate, did you not, dated January 7, 1918, as follows [reading] : The bearer t>f tlaiis certificate. Louise Bryant, is going to Stockiiolm as a courier of the People's Commissar of Foreign Affairs and is talsing along sealed bags and packages. It is requested that all those in authority show her assist- ance on her journey, and particularly with her baggage. Miss Bryant. Yes, sir. Senator King (continuing reading) : Assistant to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Zalkind. Stamp of the People's Commissar of Foreign Affairs. Now, you have such a certificate? Miss Bryant. I had such a certificate. Senator King. That was issued by the Bolsheviki ? Miss Bryant. Yes, sir. There was no one else to issue it. Senator King. You were called a courier of the Bolsheviki? Miss Bryant. Yes. sir. Senator King. "The People's Commissar" of the Bolsheviki? Miss Bryant. Yes, sir. Will you please let me explain ? Senator King. You were authorized by the Bolshevik government to take such bags and packages, and were denominated their courier, so that when you came to this country you came as a courier of the Bolsheviki ? Miss Bryant. I did not. I explained all that in my book, and that is a matter Senator King. We will come to that. Did your duties as courier cease when you got to Stockholm ? Miss Bryant. Of course; yes. Senator King. But you were a detailed courier as the representa- tive of the Bolshevik government ? Miss Bryant. Not a courier to anybody. The fact was that there was only one way to get through the fighting lines, and that was to go as a courier. So they gave couriers' papers to a number of Americans that TS'ent there. Prof. Ross went as a courier, and Madeline Doty, and Miss Bessie Beatty put her papers in her bag, so that they would not be molested. And I brought things like this [indicating], because I wanted to come home and write my books and articles, and I did not want them to be taken away from me. Senator King. Did your husband go with you ? Miss Bryant. No ; he came later. Senator King. When did you come to the United States? Miss Bryant. In March. Senator King. When did Mr. Eeed come? BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 473 Miss Beyant. About four months later. Senator King. When did Mr. Albert Ehys Williains come to the United States* Miss Bryant. He came very much later. He has not been here very long — just about two months. Senator King. Mr. "Williams was there engaged in propaganda work ? Miss Bryant. Oh, yes. Senator King. And since he came here he has been engaged in propaganda Avork, has he not? Miss Bryant. Now, if you just let me answer '' yes " or " no " I do not tell you anything. Senator Overman. I think she is entitled to explain. Senator King. Mr. Williams came to the United States after he had been in the employ of the revolutionary government, the Bolshe- vik government ? Miss Bryant. Yes; Mr. Williams was organizing the foreign legion, which was organized to fight the incoming Germans, after the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, but most all the foreigners and war pris- oners in Russia did not believe in the invasion of Germany into Kussia, but Mr.. Williams organized that foreign legion and that was one of his last activities in Russia. Senator Overman. You said you wanted to explain. Miss Bryant. Yes; Mr. Williams came back to this country with a paper which was read by the naval intelligence or the military in- telligence, I do not know which, and which they have since returned to him, saying that he had come to open a bureau of information for the soviet goveminent, in order to bring about more amicable rela- tions and to tell the truth. He never has denied that. Senator King. He is the representative, then, of the soviet govern- ment? Miss Bryant. He is not a representative. He is simply a man who wants to open an information bureau, but Mr. Williams can tell you about that better than I can. Senator Overman. Is he employed by the Bolshevik government? Miss Bryant. I do not imagine he is in their employ. I imagine he does it just to give information to people who want to know about Russia. Senator Overman. You said your husband was in the emploj'ment of the Bolshevik government. • Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Overman. Were you in their employ ? Miss Bryant. I was never in their employ. Senator Overman. But your husband was ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Overman. What salary was being paid him ? Miss Bryant. The same salary which they all got — the same salary as Lenine and Trotzky — $50 a month. Senator Overman. And what they could pick up on the side ? Miss Bryant. No; they could not pick up anything. It was very dangerous. Senator Overman, to " pick up " anything in Russia. Senator Wolgott. They picked up hotels and palaces. . 474 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss Bryant. Why do j'ou say that ? You were not there and I was. Senator Wolcott. We have had testimony here that they hved in beautiful palaces and rode in Pierce- Arrow automobiles. Miss Bryant. I do not know of any that lived in palaces after the Soviets came into power. I knew Trotzky quite well, and I Imow that he lived with the utmost frugality. Senator Overman. Did you know him before you left here? Miss Bryant. No ; I met him simply as any reporter would, in Eussia. I used to go to Smolny Institute and to his office and ask him if he would tell me about current events in Russia, which he very gladly did. Senator Overman. What did you go to Eussia for ? Miss Bryant. For the Metropolitan Magazine and the Philadel- phia Public Ledger and a number of ma^gazines. Senator Overman. Are you a correspondent for that paper now? Miss Bryant. I am not now. -I am a foreign correspondent. I mean I was in France before and then I went to Eussia. Senator Overman. What foreign papers do you correspond for? Miss Bryant. Not for foreign papers. I am an American corre- spondent and go to foreign countries and write about conditions in foreign countries. My articles were sold by the Ledger and printed in conservative papers in almost every city in the United States and in Canada and in South America — ^these very same articles you are reading here. Senator Overman. Suppose you tell us what the condition in Eussia is under this Bolshevik government. Miss Bryant. I will be very glad to do it. Senator Sterung. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Humes ask such questions as he cares to and then that the witness make any general statements that the committee feels proper. Senator Overman. I think she wants to tell us about Eussia. Miss Bryant. I want to tell you about one thing before anything else — about the so-called nationalization of women, which has been so largeljr discussed here. You see, I was particularly interested in how women would act under the revolutionary government in Russia, because I had always known that Eussian women had gone to Si- beria, as many as the men, and sometimes more, and that they were particularly interested in freedom, and I wondered how they would act. I was particularly interested, so naturally I feel very badly that we are so co^;^fus?d over these decrees, because the decrees Senator Overman. Do not go into that. Miss Bryant (continuing) . The decree of Saratov. I have got to go into that before I can explain anything to you. Senator Overman. Was there a decree about the nationalization of women ? Miss Bryant. There was a decree, but it is not true that there was a soviet decree. Senator Overman. That is all we want to know, whether it was true or not. Miss Bryant. That can not be all you want to know, because all the other witnesses went to great length to tell you it was true. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 475 Senator Overman. They said there was such a decree, and fur- nished a copy of it. Miss Bryant. By an anarchist club in Saratov. Senator Overman. You say that was not issued by the Bolshevik government ? Miss Brtaist. No. I want to say, Senator Overman, further, that anarchists of the sort that would issue such a decree who were not imprisoned were shot for issuing this decree and for other disorders, and surely no one here would want a more severe punishment meted out to them. Mr. HTTirES. Is Izvestija an official paper of the soviet govern- ment? Miss Bryant. Yes ; but everything printed in it does not mean that the Soviets agree to it. Mr. Humes. Have you seen a decree on the nationalization of women which was published in Izvestija? Miss Bryant. I think it is just exactly what I have here. Mr. Httmes. Whom was it signed by? Miss Bryant. I am mistaken; I do not have it here, but I will tell you about it. The decree of Saratov had nothing to do with the Soviets. Mr. Hfmes. I am not talking about Saratov; I am talking about a decree that was published in the official soviet organ, the Izvestija. Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Have you seen that decree? Miss Bryant. Yes; but not in the Izvestija. Mr. Humes. Was that decree not published with the authority of the soviet government ? Miss Bryant. No; that decree was published — you see, for in- stance, Maj. Humes, if the American Government would publish something and say it was the work of a certain anarchist club, that it was the work of a certain group of anarchists, that would not mean that the United States Government approved of the action of that club. • Mr. Humes. I am not talking about an anarchist decree. Miss Bryant. There never was a soviet decree. Mr. Humes. You say the Izvestija did not publish a decrSfe in which, among other things, the following was contained : A girl liavin.s reached her eighteenth year is to be announced as tlie property of tlie state. Any girl having reached her eighteenth year and not liaving mar- ried is obliged, subject to the most severe penalty, to register at the bureau of free love in the commissariat of surveillance. Was that ever published in Izvestija? Miss Bryant. I read such a decree, but not in Izvestija. Mr. Humes. Just answer the question and explain afterwards. Was not that published in Izvestija? Miss Bryant. I can give you an explanation. Mr. Humes. What was the explanation? Miss Bryant. The explanation is that it was not a soviet decree and Mr. Humes. Have you got the paper in which those explanations appear ? 476 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ]\Iiss Beya>;t. Xo; but I have a very important statement here, issued very recently by the head of the Y. M. C. A., saying that he himself — 1 refer to Mr. Da^-is — investigated the whole thing, and that he was in Saratov at the time. Mr. Humes. Let us get away from Saratov. Miss Beyaxt. Vladimir also; and it is the same thing in both towns. I have the statement which he issued, and I certainly believe he knows what he was talking about. Senator "Wolcott. Let me interject a question. What paper wns that statement of the Y. M. C. A. man published in? Miss Bryant. The copv I have here was published in the Xew York Call. ^Ir. Htj^ies. When was the statement made? Miss Bryant. The statement was made, I suppose, day before ycs- terdaj'. It was in yesterday's Call. Senator Sterling. A Socialist paper? iliss Bryant. But Davis was the head of the Y. ^I. C. A. in Rus- sia, and I suppose it was printed in a good many other papers, but I do not know. Mr. Hu^iES. Mr. Davis has been defending the soviet government and the Bolshevik government of Russia since his return to this country ? Miss Bryant. A great many heads of departments also have done more or less the same thing. It is the undersecretaries of the Y. M. C. A. and various organizations and the bank clerks who have been against it. Mr. Humes. When did you secure your passport to leave this country for Eussia ? Miss Bryant. In August ; earlv in Ausrust. Mr. Humes. In 1917? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. When did you sail I ^Nliss Bryant. I believe it was on the 9th ; I am not sure. ]Mr. Humes. The 9th of August ? Miss Bryant. Yes. t jNIr. Humes. When did you arrive in Russia ? Miss Bryant. I arrived Mr. Humes. I mean approximately. Miss Bryant. Early in September. Mr. Humes. "WTiere did you arrive, at Petrograd ? Miss Bryant. It was just at the time of the Korniloff revolt. I came through Finland — around that way. Mr. Humes. You arrived in Russia while the Kerensky government was in power ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. HuiviEs. In September? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. You were there for a time up until the revolution of October, or rather Xovember? Miss Bryant. Yes : I was there a long time after that. Mr. Humes. You were there before that time ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Were you in Petrograd during all of that time? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 477 Miss Bryant. A good deal of the time. ' Mr. Humes. Where else were you ? Miss Bryant. In Moscow. Mr. Humes. How long were you in Moscow ? Miss Bryant. I went there at the time of the street fighting. I Avanted to go down and get the story, and I went down there at the time the fiercest fighting was on. Mr. Humes. At the time of the internal disorders ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; at the time of the internal disorders the fiercest street fighting took place in Moscow, and I Avent down. Mr. Humes. That was while the civil war and rioting was in progress in Moscow ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. How long were you there ? Miss Bryant. Three or four days, and then I Avent back to Petro- grad. Mr. Humes. Then you AA-ent back to Petrograd. AVhen AA'as that AA'ith reference to the time the BolsheAaki rcA^olution broke out ? Miss Bryant. I was in Petrograd at the time the Bolshevik revo- lution broke out. Mr. Humes. How long before that time had you been there ? Miss Bryant. I had been there since I came to Russia. I\fr. Humes. I mean between the time you left Moscow until the ■ Miss Bryant. Well, you see, I did not go down to Moscow until after the Bolshevik revolution began. Mr, Humes. You were in Petrograd continually up until the Bol- shevik revolution? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. And that occurred early in November, according to our calendar? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. How long after the Bolshevik revolution and the Bol- shevik regime did you remain in Petrograd ? Miss Bryant. I stayed until after the constituent assembly. Mr. Humes. When did they meet? Miss Bryant. They met in January. Mr. Humes. In January, 1918 ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Then when did you leave Eussia for Stockholm as a courier ? Miss Bryant. I just said I left in January, the latter part of Jan- uary. Senator Wolcott. You say the constituent assembly was in Janu- ary. 1918? Miss Bryant. Yes ; the 6th of January. Senator Sterling. Where did it meet? Miss Bryant. It met in Petrograd. Mr. Humes. The constituent assembly met in January and was dissolved by the Bolshevik government? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Do you remember the date? Miss Bryant. Not exactly, but if you want the exact dates I hav« them in my book. 478 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ^Nlr. Humes. I do not want it exuctly. but just approximately. Miss Brtant. I am a reporter and go a good deal on my notes, but I think it was January 6, 1918. INIr. Humes. Were you present at the time of its dissolution? ^liss Brtaxt. Yes, sir; I was present at the dissolution of the constituent assembly. Mr. Humes. It was dissolved forcibly, was it not ? Miss Brta^'t. I do not know that you would call it forcibly. It was held in a room like this, and a couple of sailors stepped in and said, "All the good people have gone home; why don't you go?" And they went. ]\^r. Humes. Were they armed ? Miss Bryant. Yes, sir; the two sailors were armed. You see tho politicians sat around and everybody else had gone home. Mr. Humes. Was there any constituent assembly ? Miss Bryant. That was the constituent assembly. Mr. Humes. There was not any other constituent assembly while you were there ? Miss Bryant. Xo ; the idea seemed to be very dead, and it did not seem as though the adherents had vitality to do anything more. Senator King. Did you see any other armed forces there at that time besides these two sailors I Miss Bryant. Yes ; there were guards around the palace. Senator King. They were around the building there, were they ? Miss Bryant. Yes, sir. Petrograd was under martial law. Senator King. They were Bolshevik guards, were they not ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; Lettish guards. Senator Sterling. Lettish, did you say, ]SIiss Bryant? Miss Bryant. Yes ; spme were Letts. Mr. Humes. Was anj'body killed in the dissolution of the con- stituent assembly? Miss Bryant. No. Some one was killed before then in some sort of demonstration, but not Mr. Humes. Some member of the constituent assembly ? Miss Bryant. Xo ; not a member of the constituent assembly. Mr. Humes. How many guards were around there outside of the constituent assembly ? Miss Bryant. I do not know. Mr. Humes. The only armed men j^ou saAv on the inside were those two sailors? Miss Bryant. Yes; and the sailors that were standing by the door. ]\Ir. Humes. How many people were in the room at the time the two sailors came in ? Miss Bryant. The hall was not as crowded as it was at the begin- ning, because after the soviet defenders read their challenge and the right wing of the constituent assembly did not agree to it, they, the left wing, got up and went out, and the right wing stayed there and discussed the situation. They talked and talked until about 2 o'clock in the morning, and the sailors stayed there, and seemed to get more sleeply and more bored with the whole thing, and finally they came in and asked the politicians to go home. Mr. Humes. Was there any business being transacted ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 479 Miss Bryant. ISTo, there was not; they were simply talking about what they had intended to do. The constituent assembly had fallen to pieces. The people, the masses, were weary of politics and left and went over to the revolutionists, the Bolsheviki had bolted the meeting. The masses followed the Bolsheviki. Mr. Humes. These Bolsheviki and some other revolutionists had bolted the meetings ? Miss Bryant. Yes; the Bolsheviks and the left socialist revolu- tionists had — the left socialist revolutionists are the largest party in Eussia. Mr. Humes. At that time the provisional government was trying to maintain a constituent assembly, and was trying to organize a permanent government? Miss Bryant. They, the Soviets, were also trying to organize a permanent government, but it was a soviet government. Mr. Humes. Rather than a representative government? Miss Bryant. They consider it a representative government. Mr. Humes. When you got to Russia, what were the food conditions there — when you got to Petrograd? Miss Bryant. The food conditions were never very good, and, as I understand, they have not been very good since the beginning of the war. Shortly after mobilization began in Russia the railroads M'ere in disorder, and theji- were right straight along, and so, of course, the suffering was intense from the very beginning of the war. Mr. Humes. How did you supply yourself Avith food while you were there? Miss Bryant. I did not supply myself with food any better than anybody else did. In fact I was hungry a part of the time, and I lived on black bread and cabbage soup and things like that. Mr. Humes. How did you get it, on food tickets ? Miss Bryant. Why, no. During the Kerensky regime I lived in a Russian boarding house, and the woman who managed it was allotted food tickets for each guest, and she got food in that way for all of us. Later I lived in the government hotel. Since the beginning of the war the correspondents have been treated more or less as guests of the government — that is, they can live in government hotels like the officers. Mr. Humes. What periodicals did you have credentials to rep- resent ? Miss Bryant. I had credentials from the Metropolitan Magazine, the Ledger, Seven Arts, and Every Week. Every Week is a magazine that has since ceased publication. Senator Sterling. The Philadelphia Ledger ? ■ Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator King. Since you left there this last January you have not been back? Miss Bryant. No. Senator King. So you know nothing of the conditions since you left, except from hearsay? Miss Bryant. I know as much as Mr. Bernstein and some of the other witnesses whose testimony I have heard. Senator King. You know nothing except from hearsay ? Miss Bryant. I know more than hearsay. 480 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator 'Wolcott. ^Ir. Bernstein was there more recently than that. Miss Bryant. Well, just a week or two afterwards, because I met him myself in Stockholm and talked to him there. Senator Wolcott. But he came here and went back. Miss Briaxt. But he ATent to Siberia, and I am speaking of central Eussia. Senator King. Then what j'ou know as to the conditions there now is hearsay, in the sense that you have not seen the conditions with your own eyes, but have derived your information from somebody else. Miss Bryant. I know a good deal that is happening now. Mr. HuiiES. Where did you get your information ? Miss Bryant. I got it from several places. One place, the Finnish information bureau. JNIr. Xuorteva, the head of the bureau, recently sent a letter to Senator Overman, saying he was receiving some funds and information from Eussia from time to time, and that he wanted to tell the committee about it. He said, " If there is Bolshevik pro- paganda, I am it, and I want to testify." Senator Overman. Who did that '( Miss Bryant. Mr. Xuorteva, of the Finnish Information Bureau. Mr. HtTJiES. In other words, you have information you have re- ceived from Mr. Xuorteva ? Miss Bryant. Part of it. Mr. HuatES. Did ISIr. Xuorteva show you the letter that the former officer of the Bolshevik government wrote to him, in which he told him that the experiment was a failure? Miss Bryaxt. Yes. Mr. Humes. You have seen that, too, have you? Miss Bryant. Yes ; I have seen that. It is not important. It was the expression of an easily disappointed Socialist, I should say. Mr. HcjiES. Have you got any official information from the Bolshevik government '. Have they furnished you with official infor- mation? Miss Bryant. Xo ; but I saw some very official information in Col. Eobins's apartment, which he showed to me. Mr. Humes. Is Col. Eobins in official connection with the Bol- shevik government? Miss Bryant. I do not think he is now. Mr. Humes. You say he has official information in his office? Miss Beyaxt. He brought back information which he showed to many of us. Mr. Humes. When did Col. Eobins leave over there? Miss Bryant. I think some time after I did. I suppose you know when he left. I do not. ]Mr. Humes. It was early in 1918 that you left, Avas it not? Miss Bryant. I think he stayed longer than that. He certainly stayed until after the embassies left. Senator King. When I use the word "hearsay." I think, Miss Bryant, you probably do not get the meaning that lawyers attribute to "the word. If I tell you something and then you go out and teL somebody else that I told it to you, that would be hearsay. Xow. M'hen I asked you if you had been there, and you said " no," and I asked you if you knew anything of the conditions there of your own knowledge, obviously, if you were not there you would not know. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 481 Miss Bryant. If I read documents and papers and things of that Tdnd, I would know that. Senator King. But I asked you if you knew anythin"- about the •conditions, of your own knowledge, since you left. Miss Betant. I have seen people Senator King. You only know what somebody has told you. Miss Betant. Yes ; except I have read Russian papers. Senator King. You have answered my question. That is all. Miss Bryant. I want to ansAver that I have gotten information from people who were in direct communication with the soviet gov- ernment. Mr. Nuorteva was allowed by Mr. Polk to send messages to the Bolsheviji government about the Prinkipo conference. Mr. Humes. Is your husband in direct communication with the Bolshevik government? Miss Bryant. No. The only direct communication I loiow is what has been sent through the State Department. Mr. Humes. Was he not appointed by the Bolshevik government as consul general to New York? Miss Bryant. Yes; he was. Mr. Humes. Has he been acting in that capacity? Miss Bryant. No ; he did not come here as consul general. Mr. Humes. Has he undertaken to perform any of the duties of ■consul general although not recognized? Miss Bryant. Of course not. I think he was consul general for a period of about four days, but before he was given his passports the whole scheme was changed. Mr. Humes. He was designated as consul general of the Bolshevik government, at Petrograd, was he not ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; certainly. Everybody knows that. Mr. Humes. Then he accepted that responsibility for the Bolshe- vik government in that particular, in violation of his sworn promise to the government when he secured his passports, did he not ? Miss Bryant. I think he accepted that with the sanction of our officials there, and I think he can explain it. He can tell you about it better than I can. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that he made that statement at the time he secured his passports ? Miss Bryant. He made a statement. I do not know what he did afterwards to counteract that or what conclusion he came to. I am sure that Col. Robins can tell you, probably even Ambassador Francis, and certainly my husband can. Senator Overman. You said some time ago that when you came out on your passports you had a certain sealed package. Were they your own papers? Miss Bryant. Yes; and Miss Beatty's, who is the niece of Admiral Beatty, of the British Navy. She was with me, and I also took her papers. She is now the editor of McCall's Magazine, of New York, and was then a correspondent for the San Francisco Bulletin. She came with me, and I kept her papers as well as my own. Senator Overman. You had no official papers? Miss Bryant. No. Couriers' passports were given us just to enable us to pass through the lines. 85723—19 31 482 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGAXDA. Senator Sterling. If your husband did accept this position, it would have been in violation, would it not, of his passport and of his obligation as an American citizen? Miss Bryant. No, sir. Senator Steeling. It would not? Miss Bryant. It would not, because — I do not know all the details but I think his oath only concerned participation in the Stockholm conference, but I wish you would ask him about it. He is in the room and I suppose you could do it. I am firmly of the opinion that Col! Robins or Ambassador Francis could tell you something about that, and he certainly could. I was not there at the time, you see, so I do not know about it. ■ Mr. Httjies. After the Bolshevik revolution, what were the food conditions ? Miss Bryant. They were just about the same as they always have been. Mr. Humes. "Was there any rioting or fighting in the streets, or the searching of houses, during that period of time ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; what was known as " requisitioning " began way back, as far as I can understand, at the time of the Kerensky government. The government used to send notices to the upper-class Russians asking them for shoes, overcoats, and for things like that to send to the destitute soldiers at the front, but they were pro- German and would not support the soldiers in any way. They would not even pretend to do so ; they just simply refused to do anything or to obey any of those demands which were sent out under the Kerensky regime, so when the Soviets came into power they requi- sitioned the banks to carry on the revolution in the same way that Benjamin Franklin in our levolution took over His Majesty's post-office funds, which was the property of the British Government. Mr. Humes. You mean they confiscated them? Miss Bryant. They confiscated them, only they nationalized the banks. ^ Mr. Humes. And they confiscated private property of individuals? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that the Red Guards went into the houses of private citizens and demanded money and foodstuffs Senator Nelson. And jewelry ? Mr. Humes. And jewelry, clothing, and that sort of thing, and took it by force? Miss Bryant. I never heard of them demanding jewelry. I do not think they made any demand for that, but they may have taken clothing. Mr. Humes. Did not the Bolshevik government, by this so-called process of requisitioning, take all of the precious metals they could in the shape of platinum and material of that kind because of its commercial value? Miss Bryant. I do not believe so; I never came across such an instance. Mr. HuJiES. You never saw any of that? Miss Bryant. I never saw anything of that kind. Mr. Humes. Did not killings occur on the streets frequently during the time you were there ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 483 Miss Bryant. No ; I went around more or less alone all the time and I did not see any killin^-s there on the streets, except once, and that was not an ordinary killing. Mr. Humes. When was that? Miss Bryant. It was at the time of the last stand of the officers, when they came down the streets of Petrograd in an armored car and turned it on a group of civilians, of which I was one. I saw that. Mr. Humes. Was that after the Bolsheviki came in? Miss Brtais't. That was just after the Bolshevik revolution, dur- ing a counter-revolution. Mr. Humes. Did you ever see people starving ? Miss Bryant. No. Mr. Humes. And falling on the streets ? Miss Bryant. No ; I never saw anything like that. Mr. Humes. Did you ever see horses falling on the streets? Miss Bryant. No. Mr. Humes. Did you ever see people there cutting off horse meat for the purpose of food ? Miss Bryant. No. Mr. Humes. You never saw anything of that kind ? Miss Bryant. I never saw it. Mr. Humes. Then, from the time of the revolution, in November, up until you left in January, except for a few pangs of hunger that you yourself felt, you never saw any disorders, except the one inci- dent of the motor car that you referred to ? Miss Bryant. Yes; and just the ordinary things that would go with civil war and with fighting. I suffered no more hardships with regard to food than I did when I was in France. Mr. Humes. How many civil wars have you seen ? You say there were just the things that ordinarily go with civil war. Miss Bryant. I mean that from what history I have read it seems to me that in our own Civil War we suffered a great many priva- tions ; and, of course, the Russians had to do the same thing. Mr. Humes. Then, the privations that are incident to war are to be expected, are they not? Miss Bryant. Yes ; that is what I felt. Mr. Humes. There is nothing in the privations incident to civil war that warrants any very serious thoughts ? Miss Bryant. I think that an American traveling there would find his stay very uncomfortable, but he could always leave ; and I think that is the way the Russians felt about foreigners. I could leave, my- self, if I did not like it. Mr. Humes. You say one could always leave, although it was necessary for you at least to represent yourself to be an official of the government in order to get out. Miss Bryant. No; you see, this is the situation: If I had gone through Siberia, it would not have been necessary ; but from the be- ginning of the revolution — the first revolution — the Finns were fight- ing the Russians; and when anybody came through Finland they took absolutely everything away, whether it was foodstuffs or whether it was papers. I did not want that to happen to me in Fin- land. I knew that they respected a courier's passport, and so when 484 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. I Avas ready to leave I simply went to the soviet officials and said " Can you give me a courier's passport? " and tliey said, " Yes "; and they did it. Mr. HuiiES. Then the situation was this, that it was difficult to get out of Eussia through Finland ? Miss Brfant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Or out of Eussia proper to the west, but it was, ap- parently, easv to get out of Eussia to the east, through Siberia? Miss Beiaxt. Yes. Mr. HuJiES. ^^Iien Mr. Eeinstein went over did you go over with him? • Miss Beyant. No ; I did not know him until I saw him over there. Mr. Httmes. You got there before he did ? Miss Betant. No; not until much later. He used to teach me Eussian. Mr. Humes. When you got there, did you find him connected with the Miss Bryant. Soviet government ? No : not at that time. Mr. Hr:NrES. Was he connected with the soviet revolutionary party ? Miss Bryant. No; he was a Menshevik internationalist — a very small party in Eussia. Mr. Humes. When did he become a member of the Bolshevik gov- ernment? INIiss Bryaxt. He became connected with it after they tried to bring about the revolution in Germany ; he is a student of interna- tional affairs, and they wanted him to be the head of the bureau. Mr. Humes. What was Eeinstein's business? Miss Bryant. He has always been a writer. I think he wrote for a socialist paper, the Weekly People, over here for a great many vears. Mr. Humes. Living in Buffalo, N. Y. ? Miss Bryant. Yes; I believe so. I did not know him before I went over there. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that his wife is a doctor in Buffalo ? ]\Iiss Bryant. Yes ; she is. Mr. Hi'JiEs. At the same time that you were there, was Mr. Eein- stein, with whom you became acquainted, you and your husband? I\Iiss Bryant. And many other people. Mr. Hu:\[Es. What other people from America, or Americans, did YOU find and get acquainted with while you were in Petrograd? ]Miss Bryant. With Arno Dosch-Fleurot, the World man, and especially with !Miss Beatty. We were the only two American women reporters there most of the time, so we saw each other a great deal. xVnd v.ith Col. Thompson — I lieg your pardon: not Col. Thompson- Col. Eobins and Maj. Thacher. 1 came from Stockholm on the same boat with Gen. Jndson. I met him in Christiania, not in Eu&sia. Mv. Hu.MEs. He was military attache in Eu&sia? ]Miss Bryant. He was the head of our military mission there. ]Mr. Humes. I do net think you quite imderstand me. What other- people ficm America were connected Avith the operations of the Bol- shevik government while you were there? ^liss Bryant. You mean Americans ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 485 Mr. Humes. Yes ; Americans, or people who had come from Amer- ica to Petrograd. Miss Brya:nt. There were a number of exiles that came from over here and went back. Mr. Humes. Name them. Miss Bryant. There was William- Shatoff. Mr. Humes. What is his position in the Bolshevik government ^. Miss Bryant. I do not know what he is now. Mr. Humes. Is he a commissar of some kind? Miss Bryant. No ; he is not a commissar. He was organizing what they called the factory shop committees. ■ Mr. Humes. But he had an official connection with the goveinment ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; he is a Russian. Mr. Humes. How long had he been in this country ? Miss Bryant. I do not know. He is not an American; he is a Eussian. Mr. Humes. He is a Eussian, is he? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Sterling. Was he in any Avay connected with the railroad administration ? Miss Bryant. I heard a witness testify to that effect, but he must have been :(Tiistaken, because he was not a railway expert. He was working in the factory shop committees there when I was there, and I think that he would not be changed, because that is what he is particularly fitted for. Senator Wolcott. You do not know whether he was changed or not. ■Miss Bryant. No; but I do not imagine so. Senator Sterling. The witness Smith testified to that effect. Miss Bryant. I do hot think it makes any difference at all, only I am telling you what he did when I was there. Senator Wolcott. While you were there he was not the head of any railroad? Miss Bryant. No. Mr. Humes. What other person that had come from America did you find over there in some official capacity ? Miss Bryant. I told you Eeinstein and Shatoff, and I guess that is all that I know. Mr. HuJiES. Of course, Trotzky was there, and he had been in thtf United States. Miss Bryant. But I did not know him here. Mr. Humes. I do not mean whom you knew here! I mean people you discovered when you got there that had been in the United States, had come from the United States. Miss Bryant. Trotzky, of course. Mr. Humes. Who else? Miss Bryant. I do not know. Mr. Humes. I am talking about Americans you came across over there. Miss Bryant. I saw, for instance, Alexander Gumberg, a Eussian, who worked for Col. Eobins, and later worked for Mr. Sisson. He has returned to this country. 486 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. He had an official connection with the Bolshevik gov- ernment, did he? ^Ii>^s Brtant. He came back here to establish a pre-^s agency for them, the Petrograd News Agenc}', I believe, and he got certain con- cessions from them to do that. Mr. HriiEs. Did he ever establish it? Miss BEYA^'T. T do not'know. I know he received $5,000 from ili. Sisson for his work. I\Ir. HrjiEs. For his work in Eussia? Aliss Bryant. Yes; for securing certain documents, and other work. Mr. Hu:>rEs. Was he in the employ of the government? Miss Brtant. Yes ; he was in the employ of the government. He also pretended to be a close friend of Trotzky, and he was in the employ of Sisson, and I do not know who else or what other mys- terious business he performed. Mr. Humes. Did he ever organize that information bureau in this countrj' ? Miss Brtant. I do not know. Mr. HuiEES. Or press bureau, or whatever you call it? Miss Brtant. It was called the Petrograd Press Agency. That agency is a real plum. Mr. Humes. Is he still in America? Miss Brtant. Yes. Mr. Homes. What other Americans did you come across over there in government circles? Miss Brtant. That is all I can think of. Senator Sterling. Did you know Mr. Shatoff before you knew him in Eussia? Miss Brtant. I once heard him speak at a meeting of Kussians here. Senator Sterling. Where, here ? In what city ? Miss Brtant. I believe it was in Paterson. Senator Sterling. In Paterson, N. J.? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Sterling. "V^lien was that speech made? INIiss Brtant. About three years ago. Senator Wolcott. Did you know a man over there by the name of Zoren ? Miss Brtant. I did not know him. I heard that he was there, I believe in Kronstadt. Let me see Senator Wolcott. He was a commissar, was he not? Miss Brtant. Yes. I mentioned him in my book, I believe, but I do not remember in what connection now. Senator Wolcott. He was from America? INIiss Brtant. Yes; he had been in America. ]Mr. Humes. You say that Col. Eobins had an information bureau over there? Miss Bryant. You see, it was this way: Col. Eobins was very anxious to know everything that was going on in Eussia, and he realized that the socialists, of course, would be closer to the soviet government, and would have their confidence. Therefore, he Tvas very anxious to know through them what was going on, and also he BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 487 wanted to know what they were doing about organizing a revolution in Germany, and whether they were pro-German or not, and when there were meetings we went to them and reported to him. I went to one of the meetings of the German war prisoners with Mr. Dosch- Fleurot, and I made a report to Col. Eobins and also to the American consul, Mr. Treadwell. We went to as many meetings of all kinds as we possibly could. Mr. HtJMES. Will you tell us how many of those were employed by Col. Eobins in this information bureau? Miss Brtant. I do not think you would call it an information bu- reau ; and I know that Miss Beatty worked for the Red Cross. Mr. Humes. This was an information bureau of the lied Cross, was it? Miss Bryant. Why, yes, in a way ; and we all worked very closely with the Red Cross and Col. Eobins with the American Embassy. Mr. HuJiEs. You have mentioned two people that were employed besides the assistance that you gave him. Now, whom else did he have working for him? Miss Betant. At one time he had Mr. Reinstein. I was never em- ployed. I did my work gratis. Senator Overman. Is he the man who is now in the Bolshevik gov- ernment? Miss Brtant. Yes. Mr. Humes. When was that with reference to the time when Rein- stein became an official of the Bolshevik government ? Miss Brtant. That was at a previous time. They used to give Col. Robins accounts of all meetings, public and otherwise, that they could get into, meetings in the prisons and elsewhere, so that he would have news besides what he covered himself. Mr. Humes. Were there any other informants besides the ones you have mentioned ? Was Williams one of his informants ? Miss Brtant. Why, yes. Mr. Humes. Was your husband ? Miss Brtant. Yes. I would like to give testimony at this point, if you will let me, about certain things they did. Mr. Humes. Now, Miss Bryant, when you left Russia, how did you get out of Finland? At what point did you leave Finland? Miss Brtant. I went by way of Haparanda, and the sailors — you see, there was a good deal of confusion and there was fighting going on. and the Kronstadt sailors who were on my train were taken off and taken out and shot, and " (Senator Nelson. Shot by whom ? Miss Bryant. By the White Guard and the Germans. You see, the Germans were fighting against the Red Guards in Finland, be- cause the White Guards wanted to put a German king on the throne of Finland, and the Bolsheviki were sending up people to reenforce the Red Guards in Finland. Mr. Humes. Then you were on that train Miss Brtant. I was on the last train that got through. Mr. Humes (continuing). On which there were some of the rep- resentatives of the Bolshevik government who were Miss Brtant. No ; they were not representatives of the Bolshevik government. They were simply sailors, in another car. 488 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGABTDA. Mr. Humes. They were Kronstadt sailors? Miss Bkyant. Yes. Mr. Htjmes. Were they not sympathizers with the Bolsheviki? Miss Bryant. Yes, they were sympathizers; they were Bolshevik sailors. Mr. Humes. They were sympathizers ; and the White Guards came on that train and took them off and shot them ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. That was because of their connection with the Bol- sheviki ? Miss Bryant. Yes, and because the sailors were anti-German. Mr. Humes. How does it happen that you, an official messenger of the Bolshevik government Miss Bryant. They did not know that I had courier's papers. Mr. Humes (continuing) . Did not fall into the hands of the White Guards, if they were after all the Bolsheviks ? Miss Bryant. Because they simply thought that I was an Ameri- can, and did not pay any attention to me. Mr. Humes. They did not even ask you for your credentials? Miss Bryaxt. They may have looked at my American passport. I would not have given them the other, certainly. Mr. Humes. But you had in your possession bags with papers, with the official seals on them of the soviet government, did you not? Miss Bryant. You are making a jjicture that is not quite true. They were only looking, as they came through the train, for certain armed persons, for soldiers sent up there to fight them. They went through the train and took the soldiers away and went right on and paid no attention to us. Mr. Humes. They did pay some attention to you, because you say they looked at your American passport. Miss Bryant. I mean, it was like this: People were always going through the train and looking at your passports. You are shut in these compartments, you know; the train is all made up of compart- ments, and they would come and open the door and say, " Give me your passport," and you would hand it to them. The thing was that when we got to the border the Bolsheviki, who were in charge of the border — you see, the way it Avas, some points M'ould be held by the White Guard and some by the Red. The Bolsheviki still held the border, and when I got up there I gave him my credentials and they let me bring my bags through. . Mr. Hughes. The AVhite Guards you came in contact with simply demanded credentials of the Americans and others on the train be- sides the sailors that were coming on there for military purposes 1 Miss Bryant. They did not stay on the train two minutes. They simply said, " Show us your passports," and marched away, and we went on. ]Mr. Husies. The White Guards you speak of respected your Ameri- can passport and American citizenship ? Miss Bryant. They did not have time to respect it or not respect it. They simply wanted to get all the armed people out of the way. Mr. Humes. The fact remains that they did respect it ? Miss Bryant. No ; I do not know that they did. I could not tell whether every different group of people that passed through my train were White Guards or Eed Guards. BOtSHBVIK PROPAGANDA. 489 Senator Nelson. They did not shoot you like they did the sailors ? Miss Bryant. They would have if T had been armed. Senator Nelson. Why? Miss Bryant. Well, they would have, in any case, if I had re- mained, because if I had been in Finland and the White Guards were trying to put a German king on the throne, I would have been fighting with the Red Guards. Senator Nelson. Did you not say that they took those sailors out and shot them ? Miss Bryant. I did not see them shot. I did not run after them when they took them put. Mr. Humes. How do you know they shot them ? Miss Bryant. I found that out in Stockholm afterwards. Mr. Humes. Now, you say you do not know whether the people who came in and took these sailors oS the train were White Guards or Eed Guards ? Miss Bryant. Oh, yes ; I do know about those particular people. Mr. Humes. You said a moment ago that you did not know which they were. Miss Bryant. You are trying to confuse me now, major. Mr. Humes. No ; I am not trying to confuse you. You said a moment ago that you did not know whether they were White Guards or Eed Guards. Miss Bryant. Will you let me straighten this out ? » Mr. Humes. Yes. Miss Bryant. In time of revolution, American coi'respondents usually carried passes from both sides, and often both sides gave us passes, and especially in Great Russia. Correspondents were not armed and not detained. Senator Nelson. Did you have passes from both sides ? Miss Bryant. No ; I did not in this particular case ; but in Russia I often had passes from the reactionaries and passes from the Red Guards, and they gave them to other correspondents. They all gave us passes, so that we could go and report the truth. Senator Overman. I notice your passports here say that you are a representative of the American social democracy and an interna- tionalist. You did not go there, then, as a correspondent, but as a representative of the internationalist? Miss Bryant. No. You see, Senator Overman, when you go and ask the soviet officials for a pass they make it out in their own way. They make it out so that their own soldiers will understand it. Senator Overman. They did not make this out to show that you were a correspondent, but they made it out to show that you were an internationalist. Miss Bryant. Oh, as for that, being an internationalist is not unique. Anyone is an internationalist that even believes in the league of nations and things of that Irind. Senator Overman. All except one of your passports is signed by Peters, who is said to be the " high executioner." Miss Bryant. Yes. I would like to tell you about Peters. Mr. Humes. Do you know anything about the activities of Peters as executioner recently ? • Miss Bryant. I do not know ; but I know how he felt about capital punishment. He knew all the correspondents very well. One reason^ 490 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. for that was because he had lived in England, and he spoke English very well. Mr. Humes. What is his nationality ? Miss Bryant. He is a Lett. Mr. Humes. How long had he been in England? Miss Bryant. He had escaped from Russia during the 1905 revo- lution and had been over there ever since. Mr. Humes. Has he ever been in the United States ? Miss Bryant. No. "V\1ien we found out that this man spoke Eng- lish so well we, of course, alM'ays went around and asked favors of him, asked if he would tell us about certain things, and if he -would give us certain credentials. He was very friendly to the corre- spondents at that time. Mr. Humes. Is it not a- fact that it was not at all difficult to find people who spoke English in the soviet government ? Miss Bryant. No; it was not difficult at all. Mr. Humes. People who spoke English as well as Peters ? Miss Bryant. Yes; there were a good many of them that spoke English, but he had a good deal of authority and could render assistance. Mr. Humes. That is what I want to find out. Who were these people that spoke English and had learned it in the United States? Miss Bryant. They did not necessarily learn it in the United States, Russians who ^re educated often speak five or six languages. They do not have to go to the country to learn the language. Mr. Humes. Then I understand you to say that, so far as you have knowledge, you only discovered the three or four or five persons that you have mentioned in Russia who had formerly lived in the United States ; is that true ? Miss Bryant. I think that is true ; but I would like to refresh my memory. Mr. Humes. The only people you came in contact with ? Miss Bryant. I mentioned four or five people in my book. If there are any more there than I mentioned — let me see the book for a moment. Mr. Humes. Can you tell us who the others are who came from the United States by reference to your book ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; I will tell you. Kollontay, the minister of wel- fare. Mr. Humes. What position did he hold ? Miss Bryant. She. Mr. Humes. She ? Miss Bryant. She was minister of welfare. Mr. Humes. What was her nationality ? Miss Bryant. Russian. Mr. Humes. How long had she been in the United States ? Miss Bryant. I do not know. I did not know her in the United States. Mr. Humes. Did you not hear from her how long she had been in the United States? Miss Bryant. No. In the democratic congress we were seated in the reporters' boxes. They always reserved a place for the reporters. She came up one evening and asked, "Are you American correspond- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 491 ents? " We replied, " Yes "; and she said she had been in America; and from that time on we all came to know her A'ery well. Mr. Htjmes. Where had she lived in the United States ? Miss BRrANT. I do not think she had lived here. I think she went on a tour of the United States. Another person I knew over there was Catherine Breshkovskaya, who testified here. I saw her. more or less, during the time she lived in the Winter Palace. Mr. HtTMES. She had only been in this country touring ? Miss Bryan.t. Oh, yes; liut she had also liA'ed some tinie in this country. Mr. Humes. Well, now, whom else did you find who had been in this country? Miss Bryant. Let me see. Mr. Humes. Did you meet a negro by the name of Gordon ? Miss Bryant. I did not meet any negroes. I did not see but one negro while I was there, and he had nothing to do with the soviet. He was a professional gambler. Mr. Humes. Did you meet a man by the name of Murieff ? Miss Bryant. I did not. Mr. Humes. You did not meet him ? Miss Bryant. I do not remember Mr. Humes. If you can think of any other Americans or persons who had been in America, by reference to your book, any other person Avho had been in this country, I wish you would tell us who they are. Miss Bryant. Let me see; you mean Americans who were con- nected with the soviet government? Mr. Humes. Americans who were connected with the soviet gov- ernment, and Russians who for a period of time had been residents of this country. Miss Bryant. There was one man over there, who worked on an English paper, by the name of George Sokolsky, who may or Avho may not have been a Russian. He claimed to be a Russian here and he claimed to be an American in Russia. Mr. Humes. Was he connected with the Bolshevik government ? Miss Bryant. He had no connection Avith the Bolshevik govern- ment, but he had other connections. The Bolsheviki distrusted him. Senator Steeling. Had he lived in America ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Steeling. Where? Miss Beyant. In New York. Mr. Humes. Had you known him in this country ? Miss Bryant. No. I met him there ; he came up to me on the street in Petrograd and spoke to me and to Mr. Reed. Sir. Humes. Do you know with Avhom he was connected in this country ? Miss Bryant. No; I do not know with whom he was connected, particularly in America or in Stockholm. He worked on this English paper and he wrote certain things that always seemed to me to be Avritten just to anger the Russians — that is, to alienate them from America. He seemed to take particular delight in saying "An Amer- ican says this and that about Russia." at a critical moment. None of the reporters trusted him. 492 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Htjmes. Was he connected with Morris Hillquitt in New York? Miss Bryant. No ; not at all. He is not a Socialist. Senator O'^TiRitAx. Who is Alexandra KoUontay? Miss Bryant. She is the minister of welfare. She is an excep- tionally cultured woman, who wrote 10 books on welfare before she became connected with the government. Senator Wolcott. ]May T ask who Mr. Dosch-Fleurot is? Miss Bryant. Yes; he is the World correspondent. Senator Wolcott. Was he or not sympathetic with the Bolsheviki ? Miss Brfant. He changed every now and then. Now he is veir much against them. At times I think he Avas not so much against them. At the present time I think he is quite against them. Senator Wolcott. , How was he over in Eussia? Miss Bryant. In Eussia he went through various changes. He did not seem to remain of the same opinion, at all. Senator Sterling. What was lie to begin with '>. Miss Bryant. I do not know. He has been a correspondent of the World abroad for a good many years. Senator Sterling. But what were his sympathies to begin with! Did he sympathize with the Bolshevik government? Miss Bryant. Oh, no; not at the beginning. I think he was quite against it. Senator Sterling. Afterwards, did he become identified with the Bolsheviks? Miss Bryant. No. I brought back to the World an article, which was printed by the World, telling how Mr. Dosch-Fleurot felt about Eussia at that time. The article was featured and caused a good deal of comment in other papers. Mr. Humes. Now, JNIiss Bryant, you say your husband and Boris Eeinstein and Williams were engaged in propaganda work. Were they engaged in a propaganda work as distinguished from this cor- respondent that you have referred to, which was intended to create a friendly feeling between Eussia and the United States? ^liss Bryant. Why, their principal task was to break down the German forces on the front. Mr. Httimes. "Were they undertaking to do that by an attack on the United States Government and upon the officials of the United States Government? Miss Bryant. Why, no: of course they were not. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that this newspaper was published as one of the papers that was published by them [indicating] ? Is not that one of the papers that they published over there in German? Miss Brjant. Yes; but everything in it they did not write. Mr. Humes. I do not know whether you can read Eussian or not, but on the front page of that paper that is published Miss Bryant. This is not Eussian, it is German text [indicating another paper]. Mr. Humes. In that paper that they published is there not a violent attack upon the President of the'United States and upon the attitude of the United States ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; but they did not write it. Mr. Humes. How did it happen to be in the paper that they were publishing under the supervision of Col. Robins if they had no control over it ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 493 Miss Bryant. Well, if you will ask Col. Robins, he will tell you a Tery interesting story cabout it, and he could tell you why, much better than I could, because he knows much better. Mr. Humes. You made the statement that this one newspaper correspondent was putting, as you understood, squibs in the paper from time to time that you felt were calculated to estrange the Americans and Russians? Miss Bryant. Oh, yes ; but he had no connection with this paper or with the Soviets. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that the activity — that your activity and the activitj^ of Boris Reinsteih Miss Bryant. My activity ? I did not confess to any activity. Mr. Humes. Well, we will omit you, then. Is it not a fact that the activity in which Boris Eeinstein and your husband and Wil- liams were engaged was calculated to create prejudice and a feeling of animosity against the United States and against the officials of the United States? Miss Bryant. Absolutely not. Mr. Humes. How do you account for this article; and who did write that article? Miss Bryant. As I understand it, someone not an American, wrote that; someone who was very unfriendly toward the United States; but they (the Americans) did not even know tjiat it was going into the paper until after they actually saw it in print. Mr. Humes. Then they were running an information bureau Miss Bryant. No ; you do not let me answer you, Mr. Humes, and that is why I can not tell you anything clearly. This paper that you have particular reference to, they did not have supervision of that. Mr. Humes. Did they not have anything to do with this paper ? Miss Bryant. Yes; but they did not edit that [indicating paper in the hands of Mr. Humes]. They edited this [indicating another paper], an illustrated sheet. Mr. Humes. Let me call your attention to your husband's own article. Miss Bryant. That is not my husband's article. Why do you not ask my husband about it ? Mr. Humes. I want to call your attention to your husband's own article. After about a dozen numbers of Die Fackel it was changed to Der Volkef riede. I do not know what the pronunciation is of that, but it was changed to this paper [indicating]. Miss Bryant. Yes; it was first Die Fackel — the Torch — and then it was changed. Mr. Humes. Now, in this article he says that the publication of this paper is under himself, Williams, and Boris Eeinstein. Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Now, if he had nothing to do with this, and was not the editor of the paper, who did control the things that went into the paper ? Miss Bryant. If you would ask him, he would tell you. Mr. Humes. Do you know? Miss Bryant. No ; I simply know about this point. Mr. Humes. You do not know anything about the detailed activi- ties, then, of your husband and Williams and these other English papers at that time ? 494 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss Bryant. No. There were no English papers. There were Russian and German papers. I did not work in the foreign office. The English paper was not published by the Soviets. Mr. Humes. They worked in the foreign office, did they ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. "Woi'king in the foreign office, they assumed, as pro- vided by the constitTUion, the duties and the responsibilities and riglits of Russian citizenship i iliss Bryant. I do not know. Senator Sterling. Who was the minister for foreign affairs under whom they worked? Miss Bryant. Trotzky. Senator Overman. I notice that you have a picture in your book which is before me here, " The Red JBurial held in Moscow in Novem- ber. Five hundred bodies were buried in one day." Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Overman. Were those Red Guards who were buried? Miss Bryant. Yes; Red Guards that were buried, shot by the White Guards? Mr. Humes. Did you at any time, except on the one occasion you related about the armored car, see any open assassination on the streets of Petrograd? Miss Bryant. Xo ; I was in the Winter Palace the day that it fell. I was in the Winter Palace with the Kerensky officials and the junkers. I stayed there all day. They expected that they would have to surrender, and I wanted to be there when the palace fell. I wanted to see what it would be like, and to get the story. About 5 o'clock I decided that there was not going to be any attack, and I asked permission to leave. They told me that I could go, and I went out, and I found that there was a huge meeting going on in Smolny Institute, and I went to that meeting. Wliile we were at the meeting, we heard firing, the firing of cannon on the Winter Palace, and we rushed out and saw a big motor car just going down, and we asked permission to ride in it, and they let us ride. '\A"e went down the Nevsky Prospect, and when we got near the Winter Palace we found that it had just fallen, and we ran in with the first troops. I was with Miss Beatty, and Mr. Reed was there, and Mr. Williams. Mr. Hu3[ES. Of course, you saw some people killed at that time? Miss Bryant. Xo. Mr. Humes. No one was killed? Miss Bryant. I did not say no one was killed. I did not see any- one killed. Mr. Humes. The Bolshevik revolution and the overthrow of the Kerenskv government was entirely bloodless? Miss Bryant. No ; I say I did not see anybody killed. There were a number of Bolsheviki killed outsidfe of the Winter Palace, but it Avas night, so I did not see them, but there were no junkers killed. T did not say that the revolution was bloodless. In fact, I just stated a moment ago that I was on the street when many people were killed. Mr. Hujies. All connected with that one occurrence of the motor car. I said, with that one exception, did you ever see anyone killed BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 495 there in street fighting, or shot down and killed on the streets of Petrograd, Avhile you were there? Miss Bryant. Yes; I saw one man killed. I was walking on the street, and some sniper shot from a roof top, and he dropped down. ]\Ir. Htjmes. That was after or before, the Bolsheviki came in? Miss Bryant. That was after the Bolsheviki came in. Mr. Humes. Then what happened? Miss. Bryant. Then sailors ran out of the government hotel and Ixom evei'ywhere, and cried out " provocateur," because they thought that it was some one trying to start a riot, and they were rushing around the streets, trying to find who it was. That is the only time. Mr. HnMES. That is the only time? Besides the persons you saw killed from that armored car, you only saw one other person killed on the streets of Petrograd ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; except wine pogroms. Mr. Humes. Do you not know, as a matter of fact, that it is an everyday occurrence, and was while you were there, on the streets of Petrograd, to have people shot down in cold blood ? Miss Bryant. I do not know that it is so, and I am sure there are 10 witnesses who Avill testify to the opposite, and they were the heads of the official organizations sent over from the United States. They did not see it, either. Mr. Humes. Then the testimony of all the reputable people who have testified here as to the things that they actually saw with their own eyes is false? Miss Bryant. Did they testify that they actually saAV those things? Mr. Humes. Yes. Miss Bryant. I have been in the room most of the time, and I did not hear people say that they actually saw such things. Mr. Humes. There has not been a witness here that has not testified that they with their own eyes saw these things. Miss Bryant. They may have. I did not. You do not want me to testify to things that I did not see, do you ? Mr. Humes. As a reporter, yes, you did not see them ? Miss Bryant. As a reporter, I did not see such things. And please remember, it would have made a much more lurid story if I had, but I did not see it. Mr. Humes. Who was paying you while you were over there? Miss Bryant. Well, I went on a contract of fifty-fifty; that is, 50 per cent of the amount of money for the articles I wrote was paid to me by the Philadelphia Ledger when I returned. My husband paid my expenses. It is not a matter of money at all. I did not take any money for what I did over there. Mr. Humes. Did you receive any money from anybody in Russia,. I mean by way of pay for services? Miss Bryant. No ; I did not work for pay while I was over there ;^ not even for Col. Eobins. Mr. Humes. You did not work for pay. You were there for love ? Miss Bryant. No ; I was not there for love. I was there because I wanted to see the revolution, and because I am a reporter, and because the revolution caught my imagination. 496 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ]\Ir. Humes. .\.nd during all your time over tliere you saw no evi- dence of disorders or of starA-ation on the streets — people fallinw dead? * Miss Bryant. Xo; I did not see anybody fall dead. i\Ir. HuaiEs. Xo horses falling dead on the streets of Petrograd? Miss Brxaxt. Xo. jNIr- Humes. And you left there in the middle of January? Miss Bri-axt. Yes. Senator Sterling. Did you see anybody begging for bread or food or amthing of that kind ? Miss Bktant. There are always many beggars in Russia, but I understand there are less there now than before. Senator Sterling. But you saw no beggars on the streets ? Miss Betant. Very few beggars. No more than I see here in the United States. Senator Nelson. Is not that because they have joined the Eed Army, that there are no beggars? Miss Bryant. If they are old or weak, of course they can not join the Red Army. It is composed mostly of young men. Senator Wolcott. There are much fewer people in Petrograd than there were? Miss Brtant. There may be less people there now. I have read reports claiming great decrease in population since I was there, but at the time I left the population had not diminished. In fact, it was very hard to get accommodations at that time, because so many delegates came in for the various congresses and all sorts of political meetings that were going on. Senator Nelson. You came there before the Kerensky government had lost its power? Miss Betant. Yes. Senator Nelson. The Kerensky government was trying to carry on the war against Germany, was it not? Miss Bryant. Yes; and so did the soviet government. Senator Nelson. Did the Bolshevik government that succeeded them ; did they try to fight the Germans ? Miss Betant. They not only tried, but they have succeeded. Sen- ator Nelson, so that they have pushed the Germans clear back almost to their original borders. Senator Nelson. They succeeded in culminating in the treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Miss Betant. But, Senator Nelson, do you know that at the time of the treaty of Brest-Litovsk the soviet sent a series of questions to the United "States asking for assistance, saying if this assistance was given them, if we would back them up, they would break the nego- tiations and not sign the treaty of Brest-Litovsk? Senator Nelson. No. Miss Betant. And Col. Robins has that original document in his possession? Senator Nelson. I never heard of that. Miss Betant. That is true, and I have seen it and at least 20 other persons have seen it. Senator Oveeman. Did you notice any German officers there? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 497 Miss Bryant; I certainly did not. I saw some German prisoners ; and the Bolsheviki, of course, were organizing them to fight against their own government. Senator Steeling. And they were succeeding in organizing Ger- man prisoners to fight against Germany? Miss Bryant. Yes ; and one way they used them before the armi- stice was as smugglers of propaganda, sending all sorts of things back into Germany to overthrow the German Government. Mr. Humes. When these troops were organized, where did they do any fighting against Germany? Miss Bryant. They have been fighting steadily against Germany. Mr. Humes. That was the Czecho-Slovaks. It was the Czecho- slovak unit that was organized, was it not ? Miss Bryant. Not altogether. Mr. Humes. What unit was organized by the soviet government that did any fighting against Germany ? Miss Bryant. They fought with the soviet army and have been fighting Germany and have been pushing the Germans back to the Eussian borders, as you must know. If you will follow the line, you will see they have gone down as far as Kiev and Riga. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that the only fighting force besides the Red Guards, that was organized to perpetuate the Bolshevik power", was the Czecho-ISlovak unit ? Miss Bryant. I would not say that that was the only organization. Senator Overman. You may let the crowd come back now, if they will keep quiet. Miss Bryant. My feeling for the Czecho-Slavs was that that body of men should have been allowed to go back to their own country, and that is exactly what they tried to do. Mr. Humes. That is what they were trying to do ? Miss Bryant. Yes. (At this point the doors of the committee room were reopened, and the subcommittee resumed its public session.) Senator Overman. Now, I want to say to those in the audience, I have let you in, and I hope you will observe the warning not to make any noise or allow any more cheering in here. If you do not observe it, I will have to clear the room again. I hope I will not have to do it. Mr. Humes. Now, Miss Bryant, you say when you came out of Russia as a courier you brought many papers with you? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Wliat official papers of the Bolshevik government did you bring out? Miss Bryant. I did not bring any, as I have already stated. You have seen all my papers, Mr. Humes, because, of course, they were all gone over when I came into the United States. Everybody's papers are. And you have returned all these papers, both to myself and to Mr. Reed and to Mr. Williams. Everyone's papers have been returned. Mr. Humes. Have the papers of Mr. Reed been returned ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; months ago. I think three or four were lost, but almost all were returned. 85723—19 32 498 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. The trunk of literature that was taken from him has all been returned? Miss Bryant. Yes, sir ; Mr. Williams's papers were also returned. Mr. Humes. Then the material that you brought out was purely your own notes and property. They belonged to you ? Miss Bryant. I did not bring much ; just what I needed for my stories in books and papers. Senator Overman. I want to ask you whether or not at that time the people were starving? Miss Bryant. Well, you see. Senator Overman, the cutting off of the supplies by the Germans in the south and by the allies in the north, of course, made starvation Senator Overman. Answer the question, whether or not there was starving. Miss Bryant. They were very hard up. I was trying to answer. I did not see anybody fall on the street. Senator Overman. You did not see it, but you know that they were starving. Miss Bryant. I think they must have been, in some communities, especially where they were carrying on retreats; and the suffering of the children was very great. The American Ked Cross did all it could to bring milk over for the babies of Russia, but it was not very successful. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that all the food that was in Petro- grad was in the custody of the Bolshevik government? Miss Bryant. Yes, sir ; the soviet had taken it over. Mr. HmiEs. The soviet government issued the foodstuffs that they had to those that were affiliated with their own government and their own organization and let the other people starve ? Miss Bryant. That is not true. There never was a time while I was in Petrograd that you could not go into a store and buy certain supplies. You could do that. Mr. Humes. Was there plenty of money there when you were there ? Miss Bryant. People seemed to have money. Mr. Humes. Specie? Miss Bryant. Just paper money. Mr. Humes. Well, it was the money of the Bolshevik regime and the Kerensky regime, or of the old regime? Miss Bryant. They seemed to have a combination of all kinds, but it did not seem to make any difference to them. Mr. Humes. All passed at the same value? Miss Bryant. There were various kinds in Petrograd which all passed the same way, but I noticed when we got to the border of Sweden, for instance, we had some Kerensky notes, and they said they were not worth very much, and they would only give us a hun- dredth part of what they were worth. Mr. Humes. What did they give you for Bolshevik notes? Miss Bryant. We did not have any, or very little money when we got there. Mr. Humes. You did not have any money of the old regime? Miss Bryant. No. Mr. Humes. Now, when you were in Petrograd, were the news- papers permitted to publish anything that they wanted to print? BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 499 Miss Betant. Yes, sir. Will you let me bring evidence to show ? • Mr. HxjMES. If you have the nevs^spapers. Miss Betant. Oh, yes. I have files which I shall be very glad to show you. I wanted to state at the beginning — ^but you would not allow me to make a statement — that I would not say anything that I could not prove myself or could not give you the source of infor- mation in the United States. These [indicating] are what they call " Satirikons," satirical magazines, cruelly denouncing the Bolshevik revolution. Mr. HtTMEs. What are the dates of those? Miss Bryant. Api;il and December, two December, 1918, numbers. That is long after the Bolsheviki came into power. Senator Wolcott. December, 1918? Miss BErANT. Yes; 1918, after the Bolshevik uprising. These [indicating] are cartoons of Trotzky and various people. Mr. Humes. This paper has been since suppressed, has it not ? Miss Bryant. Not that I know of. Mr. Humes. Do you not know, as a matter of fact, that there is not a newspaper published in Russia except the Bolshevik journals? Miss Betant. I do not believe that is so. Mr. Humes. Do you not know that the constitution of the Bolshevik government itself provides for the suppression of all newspapers ? Miss Bryant. I am certain it does not. Mr. Humes. I will call your attention to the constitution itself. Senator Overman. What was the purpose of that meeting that you had at Poll's? Miss Bryant. The subject? Senator Overman. The purpose. Miss Bryant. The purpose was to protest against intervention in Eussia. I, as an American, believing in self-determination, can not believe in intervention. I do not see how we can fight for democracy in France and against it in Siberia, or for self-determination, either, and I believe we ought to take our troops out of Eussia, because I think it would be better for both nations to have friendly relations. Senator Nelson. You are anxious to have the Bolshevik govern- ment established in Eussia ? Miss Bryant. I am anxious Senator Nelson. Answer my question. Are you anxious to have the Bolshevik government there as a permanent thing? Miss Bryant. I think the Eussians ought to settle that. Senator Nelson. I am asking you if you think the Bolsheviki ought to be established there? Miss Brtant. I answered you. I said I believed in self-determina- tion. T. 1 1 Senator Nelson. Are you anxious to, have the Bolshevik govern- ment as they are operating it now, established in Eussia ? Miss Bryant. Why, if the Eussians wish it, yes. If the Eussians do not wish it, no. . ■■ j. , i Mr. Humes. I call your attention to this paragraph from the con- stitution of the soviet government [reading] : Guided bv the interest of the working class as a whole, the Russian Socialist Federal Soviet Republic deprives individuals and separate groups of any rights which they may be using to the detriment of the socialist revolution. 500 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Now, does that not deprive the people of Russia of freedom of the press and freedom of speech ? Miss Bryant. No; it deprives them of — for instance, if thev wanted to bring about a counter-revolution, that is, if they are traitors. IMr. HuiiES. That is, if they are against the Bolshevik govern- ment ? Miss Bryant. No; if they bring about a counter-revolution. Mr. Humes. There is only one purpose of a counter-revolution, and that would be against the soviet or Bolsheviki, would it not? jNliss Bryant. No; the Bolsheviki is only a political party. The largest party is the left socialist revolutionary party. Mr. Humes. The Bolshevik party is not the largest party? Miss Bryant. That is true. It is not the largest party. The left socialist revolutionary party is the largest and it works in the soviet. Mr. Humes. You say that anyone who is opposing the present government in Russia is a traitor? Miss Bryant. By force of arms, of course, or asking for outside help. The same thing is true in our country, Mr. Humes. Mr. HuJiES. Do you mean to say that anybody in this country who would try to overthrow the government is a traitor? Miss Bryant. By force or by outside aid, every government official would consider them such. Mr. Humes. Would you consider them such? Miss Bryant. Yes; I do not want the government to be over- thrown by force. I do not think that anj'thing like that will happen here unless there is frightful suppression. Mr. Hu3iEs. But anyone that would overthrow the Bolshevik government would be a traitor, and the government has a right to oppose and suppress their activities, the Bolshevik government, has it not? Miss Bryant. I am explaining that Mr. Humes. Under your contention. Miss Bryant. Not under my contention. I am explaining to you not what I believe, but what the Russians believe. Mr. Humes. I am asking you how the government is being ad- ministered, the actual facts and conditions. Now, is it not a fact that under the Bolshevik government, every person who is opposing the Bolshevik government Miss Bryant. Who is trying to overthrow it; yes. Mr. Humes. Is treated as a traitor? Miss Bryant. Who is trying to overthrow it, naturally. Mr. Humes. Anyone who is trying to overthrow the government is treated as a traitor ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. And is shot? Miss Bryant. I do not know that that is always so. Mr. Humes. If his guilt is established. Senator Overman. Did you not know that they have disarmed them? Miss Bryant. I did not know that they have disarmed them. I would sav that most evervbodv in Russia has arms. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 501 Senator Overman. That is, the Bolsheviki have arms, but those who are not Bolshevild have all been disarmed. Miss_ Bryant. The social revolutionists? Perhaps the 2 per cent capitalist class is disarmed, but the workmen and peasants are armed. Senator Wolcott. Did they not disarm the Czecho-Slav brigade, I believe it was, that set out to leave Russia? Miss Bryant. Yes ; I believe so, but that is a long story. It has all sorts of complicatio.is. They believed that the Czechp-Slavs were trying to bring about a coimter-revolution. But as I was not there I can not tell you about the Czecho-Slovaks. Louis Edgar Browne, the correspondent of the Chicago Tribune, can tell you a good deal about it. He wrote a good many articles about it when he came back. He is now in this country and he can tell you the whole trouble. Senator Overman. Do you not know, Mrs. Reed, that they entered the homes of people and disarmed the people and looted the houses ? Miss Bryant. No, sir. Senator Sterling. Have you any reason to believe that the disarm- ing of the Czecho-Slovaks was at the instigation of the German agents ? Miss Bryant. No ; I do not think that it was. Senator Sterling. You have heard that and heard it repeatedly ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; I have heard many things repeatedly that I do nr-t believe. Senator Sterling. You are not satisfied that that was the f act ? Miss Bryant. No ; I am not satisfied that that was the fact. I io not think you can say that the Soviets are in favor of Imperial Ger- many, because by all logic they could not be. They are opposed on every point. The two governments could not exist side by side. Senator Nelson. Is not the soviet government attempting to establish itself by force? Miss Bryant. Oh, yes; all governments, including our own, did that. Senator Nelson. And force against the Russian people who do not agree with them? Miss Bryant. Yes; we used force also against the King of Eng- land and his army. Senator Nelson. And why should not the rest of the Russian people have the right to express themselves? Miss Bryant. Why should not our Tories have had the right ? Senator Nelson. Why should they go to work and use force and disarm anybody? Miss Bryant. That is the way revolutions are brought about. Senator Nelson. Do you call that freedom? Miss Bryant. It is a transitory stage that is always necessary in establishing new governments. We had to do it; we had to disarm our Tories, and we even shot some of our Tories. Senator Nelson. You compare the Russian people, then, who do not agree with the Bolsheviki, with the American Tories, do you? Miss Bryant. I compare the Russian upper classes with the Tories ; yes, sir. Senator Nelson. You think that those who do not agree with the Bolshevik government and Avith their reign of terror are Tories, 502 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. •and they ought to be killed and disarmed and driven out of the country ? Miss Bryant. I do not say that they should either be killed or disarmed or driven out of the country. Senator Nelson. What would you do v?ith them? Miss Bkyaxt. I vFould let the Russian people decide, just as thev let us decide in our Civil VYar. Senator Nelson. You would let them go on and slay one another! Miss Bryant. I am in favor of the Russians working it out them- selves; yes. Senator Stealing. Miss Bryant, you know as a matter of fact, do you not, that the Russian Red Guards entered prisons and took men out without a trial and had them shot, again and again ? Miss Bryant. I do not know that of my personal knowledge. Senator Sterling. You have every reason to believe that is true from what you have heard? Miss Bryant. No; I do not, because so many stories have been started about Russia that I can not believe it ever happened. Senator Sterling. Do you disbelieve the stories told by witnesses here, who were in those prisons, who saw the guards take them out! Miss Bryant. I think there is no doubt that there is terror in Russia at the present time, both red and white terror. Senator Sterling. You will admit that? Miss Bryant. Yes ; it is the natural course of a revolution. Senator Nelson. You stand for the red terror ; you pick the red terror for your mission ? Miss Bryant. For my mission ? I do not understand. My point is simply this, that I believe in self-determination, and I think the Russians should decide all questions for themselves. Senator Nelson. Self-determination at the point of a gun? Miss Bryant. All governments have had to be self-determined at the point of a gun. There never has been a government established except after a war. Senator Nelson. Oh, yes; lots of them. Miss Bryant. Yes ? Senator Nelson. Have you studied this league of nations ? [Laugh- ter.] That is supposed to be accomplished without bloodshed. Miss Bryant. Seventeen millions of lives were lost, and they have not done anything yet, you will agree. Senator Nelson. There is a big plan laid out. Senator Wolcott. Mrs. Reed, I had formed the impression from what I have read in the newspapers from time to time and from what I have heard, that you have been engaged in this country in expressing words of very hearty approval of the soviet government. Now, was that impression correct on my part or not? Miss Bryant. Why, I have always spoken against the hysteria, against the scare word we have made of Bolshevism. I have spoken in favor of an understanding, or trying to find out who these people are and what they want. There is a conception in my country that the Bolsheviki are anarchists. They are social democrats. They are against anarchism, and they have put it down with force of arms. I think those things must be made known. All people coming back from Russia are asked to speak again and again. People really are BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 503 hungry to know about Kussia, and they ask you to speak, and they lask questions, and you tell them what you thiiik. That is all. Senator Wolcott. You have not answered my question yet. Do you recall what my question was ? ; Miss Bryant. If I have spoken favorably of the soviet ? Senator Wolcott. Yes. ; Miss Bryaxt. Well, I have said that it was by no means what it was represented to be ; that these people are really struggling — — Senator Wolcott. You do not answer my question at all. 1 Miss Bryaxt. How do you mean, in favor of the soviet — that I ask .10 have a soviet government immediately in the United States, for instance ? 1 Senator Wolcott. If we get down to definite questions, I will ask you that. Miss Bry'ant. I am not advocating anything of the kind. n Senator Wolcott. Now, I will ask you if you have not before American audiences and through the American press, in your writ- ings, praised the soviet government as a good thing for the Rus- sians ? ,: Miss Bryant. Why, I have said that it is my belief that it is the government desired by the majority of the Russian people, yes. I have said it fits Russia. Senator Wolcoit?. You have not lent it your own personal in- dorsement ? Miss Bryant. I have said this, that I think it is a government that .properly fits Russia. : Senator Wolcott. It has your personal indorsement for Russia ? Miss Bryant. Yes; but I would not fight for it or against it. I would not ask for intervention to keep it in Russia. I think the Rus- sians ought to settle their internal troubles, and I think it is a shame to have Ajnerican boys killed determining what form of government there should be in Russia. That is my personal opinion. Senator Wolcott. I will ask you this. You mentioned a while ago your opinion of it as it was applied to our situation in this country. Do you think it would be a good thing for this country ? ; Miss Bryant. I think each government has to work out its form of government, and I should not talk about it. Senator Wolcott. But I have had the impression that you have backed it as a good thing for this country, and I want to know. » Miss Bryant. I do not personally see how the soviet government ,would be established here, and I do not say anything like that. f Senator Wolcott. Then you do not want to express an opinion ? , Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Wolcott. Would it be a good thing for America ? That is a plain question. Miss Bryant. I do not think it would fit America at the present time. • Senator Wolcott. That is the answer I was after. •i Senator Nelson. Do you regard yourself as a missionary for the Bolshevik o-overnment to the people of the United States ? \ Miss Bryant. No, sir; I do not. Senator Nelson. Why are you preaching their propaganda here? ' Miss Bryant. I did not sav that I was. 504 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. Why are you advocating it ? Miss Bryant. You say that in the same way that all the other people have been saying things against it. I am "telling what I know about it. Senator Nelson. You have no fault to find with the cut-throat policy of the Eed Guards, the killing of everybody that does not agree with them? Miss Bryant. I do not think they do kill everybody. Senator Nelson. And disarming everybody else, and going through the buildings of people and taking out all their food and property, and looting it ? Miss Bryant. You see. Senator Senator Nelson. You do not think they have done that ? Miss Bryant. I think Russia is in a state of civil war. Senator Nelson. Has not the Eed Guard done that ? What are the constituents of the Red Guard ? What are they composed of ? Miss Bryant. Peasants and workers, young men generally, in Rus- sia. Senator Nelson. Are they not composed to a considerable extent of criminals ? Miss Bryant. Why, I would not say so ; no. Senator Nelson. Are there not many of the criminal class in their midst ? Miss Bryant. I did not notice it when I was there. Senator Nelson. Do you not know that since they have got into power they have shot many of the Russian officers of the old Russian Army? Miss Bryant. Yes ; and I can understand that. Senator Nelson. You think that is good ? Miss Bryant. I would not say that is good exactly, or exactly bad. Senator Nelson. Your idea is that they have got to pass through a Bolshevik purgatory in order to land on terra firma in Russia ? Miss Bryant. I did not say anything of the kind. I stated that I can not say what they should do. Senator Nelson. But you have come to tell the people of this country how good the Bolshevik government is ? Miss Bryant. Not particularly. I have come to explain. Senator Nelson. What is your mission about the Bolshevik move- ment? Miss Bryant. If you will let me explain, I would like to do it. Senator Nelson. Wherein do you differ from those people who have been over in Petrograd and seen the slaughter and seen the killing and the commandeering? You have not seen any? Where have you kept yourself while you were in Petrograd ? Miss Bryant. I kept myself out and in danger a good deal more than the Y. M. C. A. secretaries and the bank clerks did. Senator Nelson. But they were men who were over there all through this business. Miss Bryant. If you ask the head of our military mission, the head of the Y. M. C. A., the head of the Quakers, or the head of the Red Cross — the heads of these various organizations — ^they will t^ll you just what I have told you. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 505 Senator AVolcott. Did the Quakers have a representative over there ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; and they have requested that he be heard. Senator Overman. Who is that? Miss Bryant. Mr. Frank Keddie, of Philadelphia. They have published a statement saying that they have not been heard. Senator Overman. Has he been over there? Miss Bryant. He was over there for several years. And also Davis, who is the head of the Y. M. C. A., was over there for two years. Senator Overman. When did Mr. Keddie leave there? Miss Bryant. I think he has just come back. Senator Nelson. Were you at any other place in Eussia than Mos- cow and Petrograd? Miss Bryant. I was there all the time. Senator Nelson. Only those two places? Miss Bry'Ant. Those were the places where most of the struggle went on. Senator Nelson. That is the storm center? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Nelson. And you did not see any of the storm ? Miss Bryant. I told you some of the storm. Senator Nelson. You say you saw ordinary battles but did not see massacres. You saw soldiers fighting against soldiers? Miss Bry'ant. Soldiers fighting against soldiers. Senator Nelson. Where? Miss Bryant. Well, when Kerenskj^ marched with the Cossacks on Petrograd I saw the Red Guards, composed of men and women, smash his forces. Senator Nelson. Did you think that Kerensky would establish a fair government? Miss Bryant. I believe he was a fair man, but he was not backed by the allies and that is why he failed. Senator Nelson. You do not think he was quite as good as the Bolsheviki ? Miss Bryant. As the soviet government, no, because he was only tolerated by the Russian people. It was only a provisional govern- ment tolerated by the Soviets. They did not like the way he acted, so they threw him out. Senator NeijSon. Why do you call the Bolsheviki a provisional government ? Miss Bryant. I did not do so. It is a political party, just like the Democrats, who are in power now. Senator Nelson. It is a political party ? It is no government ? It is chaos — the soviet rule in Russia ? Miss Bryant. Not at all. You do not follow me. Senator Wolcott. You do not know what the conditions are? Miss Bryant. I can only state as to what they were when I was Mr. Humes. The present government is a dictatorship ? Miss Bryant. Yes; it is a transitory period. Mr. Humes. It is an absolute dictatorship? Miss Bryant. Of the proletariat; yes. It has been called that. It is the rule of the many against the few, a dictatorship of the many. t> 506 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. Have you studied the constitution of the Bolsheviki? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Do you approve of tlie form of government, and have you defended the government as it is outlined ? Miss Bryant. I have not been defending it, and it is of no impor- tance to anyone whether I approve of it or not. Mr. Humes. I am asking if you have advocated it ? Miss Bryaxt. No ; I have advocated self-determination in Russia. Mr. Humes. And you have not given your approval to their form of government? Miss Bryant. Just as I have said, I believe in self-determination. Senator Sterling. I note one sentence in your book here. Miss Bryant, which reads as follows: The high place and the respect accorded Trotsky gives evidence of the real feeling of the people. Miss Bryant. " Toward the Jews," if you will go on and finish it ; '' the feeling of the people concerning the Jews." Senator Sterling. Does that relate to the Jews? Miss Bryant. That relates to the fact that after I came home to America I found that there were stories afloat that there were pogroms among the Jews, and what I said was that the high place accorded to Trotzky — the minister of war — proved that that was not so. Senator Sterling. Then you did not mean the whole people of Eussia ? Miss Bryant. I mean to say 95 per cent. Senator Sterling. The Jewish people? Miss Bryant. Ninety -five per cent of the people. Senator Sterling. You think that 95 per cent of the Russian people have this high respect for Trotzky ? Miss Bryant. I think all the people in the soviet have it. Senator Sterling. All the people in the soviet. Are there peas- ants in the soviet? Miss Bryant. Certainly. They have been in there for a year. Senator Sterling. Do you think the peasant population of Rus- sia — the farmers — are upholding Trotzky? Miss Bryant. I can prove that to you. Senator Sterling. They are terrorized more or less, are they not, by the Trotzky government? Miss Bryant. I should say that they are not terrorized. They are armed, and they have taken their land and they are working it. Senator Sterling. And they send out the 'Red Guards to get sup- plies from the peasants? Miss Bryant. The peasants have their own land and have equal representation in the government. Senator Sterling. Answer my question. Do they not send out Red Guards to take by force gram and supplies from the peasants? Miss Bryant. No : not that I know of. Senator Overman. You say the pea.sants are armed? Miss Bryant. Yes. Of course the old Russian Army was com- posed originally of peasants, and when they went home they took their arms with them. BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. 507 Senator Ovekmak. Do you not know that it has been testified here that the Bolsheviki have taken all the peasants' arms, and they have got nothing to fight with except pitchforks and sticks ? Miss Betant. That is not the truth. Senator Overman. How do you know it? Miss Bryant. The Russian armies were composed of peasants. Mr. Humes. Were not the Russian armies disarmed when they were demobilized? Miss Bryant. Thoy were not. They were sent home with their arms. Mr. Humes. Those that belonged to the Bolsheviki were given their arms. Miss Brtant. All the rest that did not have arms were given arms. Mr. Humes. Did it not occur while you were there that the Red Guards searched the houses and went through all the territory that they could reach, diasarming the people who were not a part of the Bolsheviki ? Miss Bryant. I heard stories like that, but I did not see any of it. Mr. Humes. You heard of it but did not see it? Miss Bryant. No. You see, the left socialist party is the peasant party, and it is the biggest party in Russia, and works with the Soviets. Now, Marie Spirodonova, whom I describe in my book, has been twice elected president of the all-Russian congress of peasants, meeting in Petrograd, and she has always worked with the peasants. She told me how the peasants came into the soviet, and all about it, and I think she is very good authority. Senator Overman. People who have lived out among them — dis- tinguished men in this country who have lived in Russia — say that they have been deliberately going to the homes of the people and robbing them and taking all their food, and also disarming them. You do not believe that ? Miss Bryant. I do not believe that is true, because Prof. Ross does not think so, and he was there, and was out among the peasants, and he said it was not true. Senator Overman. You heard these people? Miss Bryant. Bat I do not think they knew the peasants in Russia. Mr. Humes. When did Dr. Ross leave Russia ? Miss Bryant. In March. Mr. Keddie has just come back, and he will testify to the same thing. He knows the peasants. Mr. Humes. When did Mr. Keddie leave? Miss Bryant. I do not know. It was just a short time ago. Mr. Humes. Now, you say that the Bolsheviki are only a political party ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. How many political parties are there in Russia? Miss Bryant. There are a lot of political parties, and they are all socialists, except the cadets. You see that that is the mistake that they make there, the mistake that Breshkovsky, the old grandmother of the revolution, that came in here, makes. She differs from the Bolsheviki, but they are all socialists, as this old woman is. That is what she was put iii prison for, for being a socialist. 508 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Overman. And yet she came here and said that the people are starving. Miss Bryant. I do not think she knows. Senator Overman. And she says the people are praying for us to help. iliss Bryant, ilost of her own party has gone back in the soviet. I think she is an old lady with a grand past and a pitiful present. Senator Xelson. Do you think that if you had been 20 years in Siberia Miss Bryant. I think my mind would hare broken, too. Senator A'elson. She graduated from Siberia. iNIiss Bry'ant. She did, and so did many others who are now coin- misars in the government. Senator "\Volcoti-. Did Trotzky? Miss Bryant. Certainly. His name, Trotzky, was a jail name that he had in Siberia. Senator Wolcott. Was Lenine in Siberia? Miss Bryant. Yes; and Lenine's Ijrother was one of the greatest maityrs ever executed in Russia. Senator Wolcott. How many years was Trotzky in Siberia^ Miss Bry'ant. I do not know how many years, but he escaped. Senator Wolcott. And he came to .^.merica from there soon after the 1905 revolution? Miss Bryant. Yes ; he escaped from Russia. Senator Wolcott. Yes. Having graduated from Siberia, having the record behind her that this old grandmother of the revolution has, you do not agree that that old lady has any interest in Russia? Miss Bryant. I do not contend that at all, but I think she is being used. Senator Overman. By whom? jMiss Bryant. By the coiinter-revolutionists, by the !Mensheviks, and by various organizations. Senator Overman. The very people she has been lighting for 3't years ? Miss Bryant. Down in Henry Street House, when they were ex- pecting Breshkovsky, all the old ladies who have known her a life- time were very much concerned about what was going to happen to her over here, because one of the first things she asked about was, " Wliere is my dear Emma ? " meaning Emma Goldman, with whom she lived when she was here before. They told her she was in prison, and Breshkovsky said she wanted to go to her, and they told her it was a long ways and she could not do it, and she felt very badly about it. "V^lien she talks to you she does not know what you think, at all, and 3'ou do not know what she thinks. You do not understand each other. You are not the same kind of people. Senator Overman. I know what she said. She said that in Petro- grad, under the Bolshevik government, the people are all sad, de- pressed, and begging and starving to death. Miss Bryant. How would j'ou people feel if somebody from here went over to Russia and asked them to send an army over here? Ij Emma Goldman would come out of prison and do so, now that woiim be jusi as reasonable, I think. Senator Overman. You have nc . m\ich r- ^pect for the old lady? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 509 Miss Bryant. I have a great deal of respect for her. That does not prove disrespect. Senator Wolcott. You think she is afflicted with senile dementia, do you? Miss Bryant. I think she does not understand. I would like to tell you a story about Tchitcherin, the minister of foreign affairs. At the time she was in hiding in Moscow, a Jewish editor came from New York and he went to Moscow, and the first thing he said to Tchitcherin, the foreign minister, was, "Can you tell me where Breshkovsky is? They have stories out in America that she has been killed." Tchitcherin said, " She is right down the street only a short distance from here, but do not tell her we Iniow, because the old lady is under a delusion. She thinks we want to murder her, and it will make her much happier if she thinks that we do not know where she lives. If she intends to leave Eussia, we will shut our eyes." Mr. Humes. Was it not published in the official organ of the Bol- shevik government that the old lady was dead, and that they had given her a decent burial ? Miss Bryant. She was reported dead several times. Mr. HusiES. Was it not published by Nuorteva, the official repre- sentative of the Soviets, over his own signature? Do you not know that as a matter of fact? Miss Bryant. No; I think you should ask Nuorteva about it. Senator Nelson. You think the old lady is deluded yet ? Miss Bryant. You see, Breshkovskaya said there were no books printed in Russia and that there was no furniture even, and no schools. You remember she made that statement here. She made the state- ment that no books had been printed in Russia. I could bring you books that have been printed since the Soviets came in power, and I know that there were thousands of new schools established. Senator Nelson. You need not go into that. It is sufficient that you just said that the old lady was deluded. Miss Bryant. I want to tell you about the conditions in Russia, to prove she is mistaken. Senator Nelson. You have said the old lady is deluded ; that is •nough. Mr. Humes. Did you ever read this article of Nuorteva, the official representative over here, in which he says the following : Catherine Breshkovskaya has never been imprisoned by the Soviets. When she died — not of privation but of old age — the soviet government, although she was its opponent on the question of tactics and principles, gave her a public funeral and hundreds of thousands of ^Moscow workers, members of the soviet. turned out to pay their respects to the " grandmother of the Russian revolu- tion." You say that an effort has been made by the enemies of the soviet government to misrepresent her in this country. Has not Nuorteva misrepresented her? Miss Bryant. Not at all. Our entire press has made the same statement that Mr. Nuorteva has made. Senator Nelson. But do you not think the old lady is deluded be- cause she would not stay dead? Miss Bryant. I think. Senator Nelson, it was very hard on some people that she did not stay dead, because they wanted to prove that the Bolsheviks had killed her. 510 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. You testified that Nuorteva has been the official rep- resentative of the Bolsheviki since he came back to America. After reading that article of Nuorteva, do you think the information you would get from him is entirely reliable ? Miss Brtant. I do not think any information you get from Kussia is entirely reliable, because it is so hard to get it. The govermnent makes it so difficult to get information about Eussia. We do not really actually know about the Czecho-Slavs or anything else, be- cause we can not get information. Mr. Humes. Nuorteva is apparently not reliable there. Miss Brtant. I think that the majority of the information he has is entirely reliable. I do not attach any importance to this mistake. Mr. Humes. When the information is satisfactory, when it serves his purpose. Senator Sterling. Madame Breshkovskaya was a socialist, was she not, and is ? Miss Bryant. Yes, sir. Senator Sterling. And a revolutionist? Miss Bryant. Yes, sir. Senator Sterling. Did you not prove that she was working, up until the time that the Bolsheviki came into power, as a socialist and a revolutionist in Eussia ? Miss Bryant. I thought she was a very great character in those days. Senator Sterling. But she opposed the methods of the Bolsheviki ; and because she did, you think she is deluded ? Miss Bryant. Well, as you see, she stood for the provisional gov- ernment and she is partisan. My point, as I said, is that I did not want to see America embroiled in a long war because of the opinion of an old lady, or the opinion of anyone — a Y. M. C. A. undersecretary or anyone else — because I wanted Eussia to work out her own des- tiny. Senator Sterling. There were thousands upon thousands of social- ists in Eussia, were there not? Miss Bryant. Eussia is composed mostly of socialists. Senator Sterling. There were thousands upon thousands of them who were not Bolsheviki ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Sterling. Kerensky himself was a radical socialist, was he not? Miss Bryant. Well, I would consider him not even a radical socialist. Senator Sterling. He was considered so, was he not, as a member of the Duma ? Miss Bryant. Yes; but the Duma, you see, was very reactionary, and he naturally would be considered radical as a member of the Duma. Senator Sterling. Were there not a number of the leaders in the Duma who were socialists and revolutionists ? Miss Bryant. Not many of them at that time. Senator Overman. Why did the Bolsheviki have such an antipathy toward Ambassador Francis, so that he could not get in communica- tion with them except through the Bolshevik representative, who was Mr. Eobins ? BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. 511 Miss Bhyant. I do not call Mr. Eobins the Bolshevik represen- tative. Senator Overman. Well, what was he ? Miss Bryant. He was the head of the American Eed Cross. Senator Overman. I will take that back. You called him the " go- between," I think. Miss Bryant. Yes; he went to the Soviets whenever Ambassador Francis wanted him to, I believe, because it was easier for him to get in touch with them. For one thing, they liked his personality, and he seemed to be absolutely willing to find out what they wanted. Senator Overman. Mr. Francis is a very agreeable man. "Wliy was it that they had such an antipathy to him ? Miss Bryant. I do not know what it was, except that they did not seem to trust him the way that they did Col. Robins. Senator Overman. Was not propaganda circulated in the country that he represented the capitalists of this country ? Miss Bryant. I do not think so, any more than Col. Robins and Col. Thompson, because Col. Thompson is a Wall Street man, as you know, and they liked him very well; and they liked Maj. Thacher, who is also a Wall Street man. Senator Wolcott. He gave them a great deal of money, did he not — Col. Thompson ? Miss Bryant. I know that he gave the Kerensky government money, and I do not think they questioned it. I think they thought he was a fine man all the way around. Senator Wolcott. But he gave money also to the Bolshevik gov- ernment, did he not? Miss Bryant. I do not know whether he did or not. Senator Wolcott. You know he gave money to the Kerensky gov- ernment? Miss Bryant. I know he did that. Senator Nelson. Is it not true, Mrs. Reed, that the Bolshevik gov- ernment or the soviet government has segregated the people into two classes, capitalists and the proletariat? Miss Bryant. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. Are you a capitalist or a proletarian? Miss Bryant. Well, being a newspaper reporter and having abso- lutely Senator Nelson. Answer the question. Do you belong to the cap- italistic class or the proletariat ? Miss Bryant. Well, I am very poor, so I belong to the proletariat . I have to be a proletarian. Senator Nelson. You could not carry out your mission without be- ing a proletarian ? Miss Bryant. I do not know that I have a mission; but if you war.t to give me one, all right. Mr. Htjmes. Miss Bryant, in discussing Breshkovskaya a moment ago, you started to say that she was opposed to the constituent as- sembly, or was in favor of the constituent assembly and opposed to the soviet republic, or the Soviets. Miss Bryant. No ; she was not opposed to the constituent. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that the opposition of the Bolsheviki to her is due to the fact that she is in favor of the constituent as- sembly ? 512 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss Bktakt. No ; not at all. Mr. Httmes. I asked her how she stood, in order to get a clear correct diagnosis of her position. Miss Beyant. My only opposition to her is because she believes in intervention and I do not. Mr. Humes. She has always believed in a constituent assembly, has she not ? Miss Bryant. That is not my business. Mr. Humes. Are not the Bolsheviki now opposed to a constituent assembly ? Miss Beyant. Yes; they do not want a constituent assembly, and neither do the left social revolutionists or any of the other parties. Mr. Tchernov, the chairman of the constituent assembly, has accepted posts in the soviet government ; so even he does not stand for a con- stituent assembly any more, and I do not see why we should. Senator Wolcott. That is not very good logic. Miss Beyant. Why not ? If the Eussians themselves do not want a constituent assembly — the foremost champion does not — ^why shoukl we bother ourselves about it ? Senator Wolcott. I understood you to say that some man who used to be in favor of a constituent assembly Miss Beyant. He was the president of the constituent assembly. Senator Wolcott (continuing). Now has a post in the soviet gov- ernment, and therefore he is not in favor of a constituent assembly. Miss Beyant. Nearly all of them have done the same thing. Senator Wolcott. That does not strike me as good logic at all. They may be just making the best of the situation as they find it, and still be in favor of the constituent assembly. Mr. Humes. The distinction 1 etween the soviet government and the constituent assembly is the difference between the rule of a class and the rule of the people. Miss Bryant. It is the rule of 95 per cent, which is a larger repre- sentation than the masses have in any other country in the world. Mr. Humes. Do the Bolsheviki represent 98 per cent of Russia? Miss Beyant. No ; but all the parties represented in the Soviets do. Mr. Humes. Do you mean to say that all the other parties are rep- I'esented in the soviet ? Miss Beyant. I know there are quite a number of them in the Soviets. Mr. Humes. Do you not know, as a matter of fact, that in the control of the Soviets the parties, other than the Bolsheviki, are not permitted to participate, but by terrorism they are kept out? Miss Bryant. Of course I do not. I have been in soviet meetings. Mr. Humes. Since January, 1918? Have you been in any since January, 1918? Miss Bryant. No; but I was present at soviet meetings during three months. The Soviets have never been composed solely of Bol- sheviki. They have always been composed of social revolutionists of all the parties, except the cadets and, for a time, the right socialist revohitionists and Mensheviki. Mr. Humes. Are you talking of their paper organization or their actual operation? Miss Bryant. Of the organization ; and the soviet government has never been cgmposed of just Bolsheviki. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 513 Mr. Htjmes. Then, anything that people have testified to with respect to other parties not being represented in the soviet is not true? Miss Bryant. It certainly is not ; and if you will let me give my testimony on that here, I will prove that it is perfectly true that other parties have worked with the Soviets right along. Mr. Humes. We have had testimony here that they worked with them because they had to do it. Miss Bryant. But it was my particular job. I had to follow the political situation. I worked very hard to get the political situation straight in my mind. Mr. Humes. But since January, 1918, no official documents have come from Russia. Miss Bktant. Some came to Nuorteva. Senator Wolcott. But his official documents are not very reliable, apparently, because he put out one about the death of Breshkovsky. Miss Bryant. But he has documents that have come from Russia. Senator Wolcott. But anything that comes out from that man we can not depend on. Miss Bryant. Then we can not depend on anybody, for that matter. Senator Wolcott. But he put out a story about the death of Mme. Breshkovskaya, and we have heard her talk here. Miss Bryant. If you would let me talk, I could contradict some of the testimonj^ that has been given here. Even our most conservative papers gave ont the same story. Senator Wolcott. But this information that he gave out we know is not true, because the woman was here talking to us. Miss Bryant. Do you not think, in all fairness, it is right to ask the heads of the official organizations to tell what they have seen over there? Senator Wolcott. We may 4iave some of them later on. This in- vestigation is not over yet. Miss Bryant. They have not been asked to come here so far. Senator Nelson. Mrs. Reed, I will honestly tell you that I think you are more deluded than Mme. Breshkovskaya. Miss Bryant. Why is that. Senator Nelson ? Senator Nelson. And I am sorry for you. But you are young, and you may reform. Now, I want to ask you one question in all serious- ness. The Bolshevik government of Lenine and Trotzky has been in control over there at Petrograd and at Moscow, I think, since November, 1917? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Nelson. Over 14 months. Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Nelson. Have they during all of that time attempted to have an election in Russia and elect a constituent assembly, a rep- resentative body, such as the Duma was before, or such as we have in free countries? Miss Bryant. They do not want that sort of government. Senator Nelson. Have they ever done that? Have they at- tempted to hold a representative election? Miss Bryant. They are against a constituent assembly. Why should they hold an election for it ? 8572.S— 19 33 514 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. They constitute themselves a constituent assem- bly. Miss Bryant. They have a regular elective government within the Soviets. Senator Nelson. Then they hold such elections, do they? Miss Bryant. Do you know how a soviet government works? They can have an election any time they want it. Senator Nelson. Are you familiar with the land system of Eussia? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Nelson. Of what does it consist? Miss Bryant. The land system? Senator Nelson. Yes. Miss Bryant. There is only one system. Senator Nelson. Do you not know that the Russian peasants are settled in villages and do not live on their farms, by themselves, as the farmers do in this country? Miss Bryant. I do not see that that is a big factor, because each peasant has land. Senator Nelson. They are floating around now, are they not? Miss Bryant. No; they have their own pieces of land, on which they live and work. Senator Nelson. Has not that been the system up until this time- that they lived in villages ? Miss Bryant. The great landlords Senator Nelson. No ; answer my question. Has not that been the fact, that the Russian peasants have lived in villages, which they called mirs? Miss Bryant. Yes; but the mirs went out of existence 40 years ago. Senator Nelson.^ And the land has belonged to the mirs, or the communities? . Miss Bryant. No ; it has belonged to the great landlords. Senator Nelson. And they allotted it from year to year, or after a period of years, to the peasants to work ? Has not that been their land system? Aliss Bryant. Yes. Senator Nelson. Well, they have that land yet, have they not? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Nelson. What is the Bolshevik government going to do with it ; divest the community and then assume ownership of it, and then have the state own it? Miss Bryant. Yes. But it is the same thing, and they need not pay rent. Senator Nelson. Instead of the community? Miss Bryant. Well, the community and the state are the same thing. You can understand that. The peasants themselves can work communistically, as they have done in the past. Senator Nelson. And if the state owns the land, and if it con- tinues to own it, what will the peasants be that are working there, other than tenants? Miss Bryant. What difference does it make ? Senator Nelson. They will not be any more than tenants. Ther will not be owners, will they ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 515 Miss Bryant. No. Senator Nelson. You do not believe that the peasants should own the land ? Miss Beyant. I think they should decide that themselves. Senator Nelson. If the state owns it, if the soviet g-overnment or if the government of T«otzky and Lenine or the Bolshevik govern- ment, or whatever you want to call it — Beelzebub is called by different names in the Bible, as you know, but whatever you might call this government — they have confiscated all the land and said it belongs not to the rural communities, as heretofore, but it belongs to th6^ state, and the state will continue to own it. Is not that so ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; that is the idea. Senator Nelson. Then, somebody has got to cultivate that land, have they not ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; the peasants will cultivate it, as before. Senator Nelson. Then, the people that cultivate it will be nothing more than land tenants, will they not? Miss Bryant. Why Senator Nelson. Will they be anything more than tenants ? They will not be owners ? Miss Bryant. But they do not care anything about that. Senator Nelson. They will not own it as you own the hat on your head. Miss Bryant. I would not care if it was owned by the govern- ment and they allowed me to wear it. It would not make any dif- ference to me. Senator Nelson. You think the Eussian peasants should be nothing but tenants of the state, which should own all of the land ? Miss Bryant. Public ownership is the socialist idea and always has been. Senator Nelson. Then, it is your idea ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; I am in sympathy with socialism. All social- ists believe that. Senator Nelson. You believe that, do you not? Miss Bryant. Every socialist in the United States and in every country believes that. Senator Nelson. You believe that this country should take the land — condemn it — and the Government should possess all the land, and that the tillers of the land should be nothing but tenants ; is that your belief ? Answer my question. Miss Bryant. Well, you have just discovered socialism. Senator Nelson. Do you believe that? Just answer the question yes or no. Miss Bryant. I believe that; yes. That is socialism. You have discovered socialism just there. . _ Senator Nelson. Yes ; I am aware that that is socialism- And that is what you are trying to preach in this country, is it not? Miss Bryant. Not at all. I am not a scholar on socialism. I have never preached it. Senator Nelson. What are you trying to preach here i Miss Bryant. I am not preaching. I am trying to tell what went on in Russia while I was there. 516 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. Do you believe in the system there? They have taken possession of the banks, they have taken possession oj all property in Russia, and they call it the property of the State. Miss Bryaxt. Yes. Senator Nelson. The people that use that property are nothing but tenants, and cotters, and you would redute all the Russian people and all the Russian peasants to simply a state of tenancy and make them tenants and cotters. Miss Bryant. But under the circumstances Senator Nelson. You would throw civilization back a thousand years. Miss Bryant. Thev think it advances it a thousand years. Senator Nelson. It has been the ambition — as you yourself should know, if you have read history — of all the tillers of the soil, who were originally serfs and tied to the land, almost like slaves, it has been their ambition for centuries to become owners of the land that they tilled, owners themselves, and you want to undo it and go back to the olden plan and make them simply tenants. Is that your gospel ? Miss Bryant. It is not my gospel. It is the Soviets' gospel. Senator Nelson. You believe in that soviet gospel ? Miss Bryant. I believe in socialism. Senator Nelson. You believe in that gospel I have stated. Miss Bryant. If the government wanted the land; yes. Senator Nelson. And you would make the bulk of the people simply cotters, and tenants, who cultivate the land ? Miss Bryant. I do not call them cotters and tenants. I think thev would be very free imder such an arrangement. Senator Nelson. You do not want the man who tills the soil, the man who handles the hoe and shovel and does the hard work, to be anything but a mere tenant ? Is that your gospel ? Miss Bryant. I want him to decide it himself.- Senator Nelson. Is that your gospel? Answer my question and do not equivocate. Miss Bryant. I do not Avant to force anything on any people. Senator Nelson. Do not equivocate. Tell me where you stand. We want to know. You come here as the luminary of the Bolsheviki. Now, give us all the light you can. Miss Bryant. That is what they belicA-e. They believe in govern- ment ownership : yes. Senator Nelson. And you believe in it? Miss Bryant. I think it all right if they want it. Senator Wolcott. I want to make sure that I understood you a while ago, Mrs. Reed. I understood you to say that in your opinion this soviet form of government, as you got acquainted with it in Russia, would not be a good thing for our country. Miss Bryant. That is what I said. You see, it is very difficult to tell you, for you will not let me talk in order to explain. Senator Wolcott. I will let you talk if, before you start, you will just confine vourself by my question and make your answer responsive to it. ' Miss Bryant. You see, all socialists believe in government owner- ship, and that is government ownership. But whether it would ever be worked out in this countrv as it worked out in Russia I am not able BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 517 to say, and that is why 1 said 1 doubted very much if it would work out exactly as it did in Russia. Eussia is more of an agricultural country. I have not been advocating it one way or the other in the United States. I have simply been telling how it worked in Russia, Mnd I am telling the facts about it now. Senator Overman. Do you prefer that government to this? Miss Bryant. I do not know. I have not thought about it. Senator Steeling. Do you believe that the peasants of Russia believe in that system ? Miss Brj-ant. I certainly do ; the greater number of them. Senator Sterling. You believe that they believe in that system ? Miss Bryant. I believe they do. I know they do. Senator Sterling. That the peasant who holds his land in the community of which Senator Nelson has spoken is ready to give up his land and let the state own it, and then be a tenant of the state ? Miss Bryant. There have always been communes in Russia, and they like that way of living. They work that way with the state, and they get help from the state. Senator Nelson. Do you know, Mrs. Reed, that there are two classes of socialists, which are generally designated as those who be- lieve in socialism by evolution by peaceful methods and those who believe in socialism by revolution? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Nelson. Does not the Trotzky-Lenine government belong in the latter class — to the revolutionary socialists ? Miss Bryant. Well, they believe that Senator Nelson. Answer my question. Do they not belong to the revolutionary class? Miss Bryant. All socialists belong to it in a way, if there is no other method of bringing about their desires. Senator Nelson. Well, I am asking you about this concrete case. Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Nelson. Do they not belong to the revolutionary class? Miss Brtant. Yes. Senator Nelson. They do not believe in securing it by evolution? Miss Bryant. They do if they can; but they could not do it in Russia. Senator Nelson. But if they can not, it is by revolution? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Nelson. By blood and sword, rapine, murder, and fire. Do you believe in that? Miss Bryant. No ; I do not. I did not say that. Senator Wolcott. Then, if I got your point of view, it is that you are a socialist in that you are in sympathy with socialistic ideas ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Wolcott. You believe, however, in socialism obtained by lawful processes if, under the form of government in the particular country, it is obtainable in that way ? Miss Bryant. That is it, exactly. Senator Wolcott. Undoubtedly in this country it is obtainable by law if the people want it by law ? Miss Bryant. Yes. 518 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Wolcott. Therefore, in this country, you would be op- posed to the use of violence such 51s its representatives have perpe- trated in Eussia? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Wolcott. I am very anxious to get that from you, because it is commonly understood that you advocate in this country such a program as has been going on in Russia. Miss Betant. At our meeting in Washington all of this came up, and that was the statement gotten out by the Washington Post, be- cause they are in sympathy, as I understand it, with the old Czar's regime; so they wanted to discredit our meeting as much as possible; so they said we advocated the violent overthrow of the United States Government, and I did not say anything about it at all. The Secret Service has a full report and they will verify this statement. Senator Wolcott. You want to go on record as being opposed to violence in carrying out this program in this country? Miss Bryant. I am opposed to violence ; and I am also opposed to the right of free press and free speech being taken from the American people. I am opposed to all kinds of curtailments of free press and free speech. Senator Overman. Would you be opposed to the circulation through the mails of those papers that advocate murder and assassi- nation to overthrow the Government? Miss Bryant. No, I would not be; but I do not think there are such papers — certainly not socialist papers — that advocate the violent overthrow of the United States Government. Senator Overman. I am not asking you if there are such, but if you would be willing to support a law to stop such papers from going through the mails ? Miss Bryant. Most of our laws are made in such a way that they curtail all kinds of things that they are not supposed to curtail. Take the espionage act, for example. Senator Overman. I asked you if you would want to stop this pro- paganda that advocates the overthrow of the Government by force from going through the mails? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Overman. I am glad to hear you say that. Miss Bryant. But I believe that the wisest course at the present time is tolerance, and I do not think we show any tolerance at all. We exhibit nothing but hysteria. When I came into this room, simply because it was to give a sympathetic view of the soviet rule, I was attacked in a manner that no one else has been. Senator Wolcott. You were not attacked, Mrs. Eeed, when I was here. Miss Bryant. You were not here. Senator Wolcott. You mean in the very beginning, when you were asked these questions about your beliefs? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Wolcott. They are questions that are commonly asked in court when a witness has taken the stand, when it is desired to have information in answer to the questions that will be pertinent. Miss Bryant. But they were asked in a rather cutting tone, and with a certain rough manner that was not used with any other witness. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 519 Senator Wolcott. Well, those questions were not asked of any . other witness. Senator Overman. I believe Senator King asked those questions. He is a judge, and I believe those questions are not infrequently asked when it has been testified that a person has certain beliefs. Of course, it has been testified that the Bolshevilti do not believe in the Christian religion, and we wanted to know whether you had the same doctrine as the Bolsheviki. You could not complain of that. Miss Bryant. It does not matter now. I am very glad I could tell you anything. I told you that I was at the service of this committee. Senator Overman. We did not want to show you any disrespect, but these questions were asked you Miss Bryant. If I recollect, you asked no ether witnesses those questions, because they are against the Soviets. Senator Overman. It has been reported to us by other witnesses that the Bolsheviki did not believe in God, and we asked those ques- tions because if you did not you would not be a competent witness. Miss Bryant. I see. Senator Overman. I will ask you that question, since we have come to it. Does the Bolshevik government believe in the Christian re- ligion ? Miss Bryant. You do not understand what the Soviets did ? They did as the French did in 1910, they separated the church and state, and that is the basis of all French politics to-day. You can be a member of any church or you do not need to be a member of any. It is just as it is under the American Government, do you see ? You may .belong to this church or that church. They allow freedom of religion. Senator Wolcott. If that is all it is, nobody is opposed to that. Miss Bryant. That is all it is. Senator Wolcott. Now, in regard to this Washington Post article you spoke of, did that article state — and I am asking you because my recollection is that it did — that anyone at that meeting you spoke of advocated the overthrow of government by force ? Miss Bryant. I tell you it did. I had the clippings and I went over them. In the first place, a man by the name of Brown called me a female Trotzky and made all sorts of accusations against me which were not true in any way. I do not know whether I am a fe- male Trotzky or not, but I know the other accusations are not true. Senator Wolcott. I do not recall that it stated that anyone advo- cated the overthrow of government by force. Miss Bryant. Yes; and.it even put in certain delicate little touches about our camping a block from the United States Treasury, but I do not know that that had any significance. Mr. Humes. Did you ever attend the trial of a case in a soviet court ? Miss Bryant. Yes; I followed the revolutionary tribunal as long as I was in Russia. Mr. Humes. Was the death penalty ever administered while you were there ? Miss Bryant. I think they did administer it afterwards, but not during the time that I was there. Mr. Humes. The death penalty was abolished by Kerensky, was it not ? 520 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Then, after the Bolshevik government came into power, they restored the death penalty ? Miss Bryant. Yes; there are three conditions under which you can receive the death penalty. I have them here. Mr. Humes. Under what three conditions was the death penalty imposed ? Miss Bryant. One for speculation in the necessities of life, that is, in food and other products that are needed by the starving popu- lation; for grafters inside of the soviet government itself; and for people who tried to take up arms against the government or to bring in foreign troops. Mr. Humes. That was equivalent to treason? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. People trying to take up arms against the govern- ment ? Miss Bryant. Well, that is what I have tried to explain to you. Senator Wolcott. You could not call that equivalent to treason, because there was no established government as yet. Miss Bryant. But they considered it established. Senator Nelson. But they did not apply that doctrine to the Germans? Miss Bryant. Do you thinli they treated the Germans delicately? They forced the Germans out of Russia. Senator Nelson. No; they kept them there — German officers; plenty of Germans in the iSoviet Red Guard. Miss Bryant. That is not so. Senator Nelson. You do not know anything about it. You did not see the Red Guard, hardly. You left over a year ago, about. Miss Bryant. But you Avere not there at all, at any time. How can you say it is true ? Senator Nelson. You do not know what the Red Guard is to-day? Miss Bryant. But I can imagine it is not true. I can tell you how you can see what it looks like right now, if you want to. Mr. Humes knows that the military intelligence or the naval intelligence, I do not know which, has a film owned by the soviet government, in their possession, which was brought over here by a newspaper enterprise association man. Senator Nelson. We have had testimony here that they had many Germans and German officers, from people who have come from there since you were there and have seen the guards. Miss Bryant. All right ; but I do not believe that it is so. It is not true that that film does exist and you have it ? Mr. Humes. Did you ever see the film that you are talking about? Miss Bryant. I did not see it, but I know it exists. Mr. Humes. Do you know what is on that film ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Is there anything in that film to picture the industry of the soviet government in the construction of buildings? Miss Bryant. Yes; it shows the construction of the new station at Moscow, for one thing. Mr. Humes. That is the same station, is it not, that was under process of construction when the war broke out and was abandoned BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 521 by the government because of the lack of labor and materials; and is it not in the same state, practically, that it was in at the time of the outbreak of the war, and the soviet government put that in this film in order to try to point out, so to speak, soviet industry ; is not that the fact? Miss Betant. I do not think that is quite true. Mr. Humes. Did you see that station in Moscow ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Were they working on it when you saw it ? Miss Betant. No. Mr. Humes. When you saw it it was just in the state that it was in when the European war broke out, was it not ? Miss Betant. I suppose so. I do not know what state it was in when the war broke out. Mr. Humes. It is still in the same state it was in at that time? Miss Betant. I do not know, I am sure. But I know they show public play grounds for peasant children on the former great estates of the landlords ; and I know they show new schools, new hospitals ; and I know they show the Red Guard army on parade with all kinds of equipment that they have, and all sorts of things like that. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that that whole film is a fake film in order to misrepresent the situation? Miss Betant. I do not think so at all. Mr. Humes. Well, if it represents that this station in Moscow has been constructed by the Bolsheviki, it is a misrepresentation, is it not? Miss Betant. They may show what they have done on that sta- tion, and that they have completed it. Mr. Humes. But the station, when you saw it, was practically the same station it was when the war broke out. Miss Betant. I did not see it when the war broke out, so I do not know what condition it was in then. Mr. Humes. But there was nothing whatever done with it at that time. Miss Betant. At that time they were having a frightful civil war and they could not do anything. It must have been long before this film was taken. Senator Sterling. You spoke about three instances in which the death penalty was inflicted ? Miss Betant. Yes. Senator Steeling. Let me ask you if one of the conditions of in- flicting the death penalty in those three instances was first a trial and a judgment of the court? Miss Brtant. Yes. Senator Steeling. It was ? Miss Betant.. Yes. Senator Steeling. Are you sure about that? Miss Brtant. It always was so. I do not know why it should not have been in these cases. j. ^. a . Senator Sterling. Did you hear the testimony here to the enect that members of the Eed Guard came into the prisons and took men out and shot them without any trial at all or chance to be heard ? 522 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss Bryant. I heard witnesses testify that the Red Guard had come and taken people out, but they did not know what happened to these men. They did not say that there was no trial. They could not testify to that. Senator Sterling. Have you any reason to believe that there was a formal trial ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; I believe there was a trial. Senator Sterling. Do you believe there have been many cases of trials of that kind since you left, in January, 1918 ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Sterling. Do you not believe that many death penalties have been inflicted without trial ? Miss Bryant. No ; I do not. Senator Sterling. Have you reason to believe that the death pen- alty has been inflicted on men suspected of being anti-Bolshevik without trial ? Miss Bryant. I do not know. Senator Sterling. You do not know ? Miss Bryant. No ; I can not say. I was not there. Mr. Humes. Do they have a jury in those trials? Miss Bryant. They have a revolutionary tribunal, who sit in front of a table, just as these people sit along here [indicating the members of the committee] , and hear the testimony of various people. Mr. Humes. It is more like a court-martial ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; it was more like a court-martial. In the cases that I saw tried the penalties were very mild, indeed. We were rather surprised, because we anticipated that in the fervor of the moment perhaps the guillotine would be set up, like in the French Revolution, and we were very much surprised to see that they dis- missed these people often with a sentence like, " We turn you over to the contempt of the people," and things like that. Senator Nelson. They had plenty of cases to mention ? ■ Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Is it possible that the guillotine has been established in Russia as a means of inflicting the death penalty ? Miss Bryant. No; I have never heard of it. Because in the French Revolution they had the guillotine, I wondered if they would. Mr. Humes. Do you speak Russian? Miss Bryant. A little, and I can understand it. Senator Sterling. The matter of establishing the guillotine was discussed, was it not ? Miss Bryant. I suppose it was. Senator Sterling. It was discussed by some of the Bolshevik leaders, was it not? Miss Bryant. It was discussed, but nobody ever was in favor of it. Senator Sterling. Nobody ever was in favor of -it? Miss Bryant. People spoke in heated moments of establishing it, but then everyone said " No, we will not countenance that." Senator Sterling. Did some of the leaders speak about establish- ing it? Miss Bryant. There was a newspaper story, when I was in Rus- sia, to the effect that Trotzky said, " If conditions get any worse, if BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 523 there is any more terror on the part of the White Guard, we will establish the guillotine." Mr. Humes. Did not conditions get worse, and did they not es- tablish the guillotine ? Miss Bryant. No; they never have. Did any witness testify that they had? Mr. Htjmes. No; I asked you if they did. Miss Bryant. No ;_ and I do not believe anybody testified to that. Mr. Humes. I am just asking you if they did. Miss Bryant. I do not believe so. Mr. Humes. Did you use an interpreter? Miss Bryant. Yes; sometimes. Mr. Humes. Who was the interpreter? Miss Bryant. I had \'arious ones. I sometimes had this man Gumberg, who was also used by Sisson; but as there were always Kussians that spoke English, like all these leaders, we did not need them even at first. Mr. Humes. You said something about the schools. Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Will you give us the exact location of any school that you know of being in operation? Miss Bryant. I can do better than Ihat. I can give you the name of a witness who can tell you all about it. Mr. Humes. I mean the location of one that you saw when you were there, a school that was in operation. Miss Bryant. I was there in the winter, and the schools were not going at that time, even in Kerensky's time. Later on some opened in Petrograd — the ordinary schools — and the new schools were just being established. Mr. Humes. Up to the time you left they had not gotten the schools organized and opened yet? Miss Bryant. No ; some of the schools were running, but they had not established the new ones. But I know that many new ones were established, because Mrs. Tobenson, whose husband was head of the far-eastern soviet, and who started the workers' institute in Chi- cago — a Russian — told me a great deal about the schools, and she is in New York, and I am sure would be glad to testify, and she told me much about the schools; in fact, she even taught in one of them. Mr. Humes. Is Tobenson a member of the government now in Eussia ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; and he was the head of the far-eastern soviet. Mr. Humes. He came from Chicago ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. You did not mention him a while ago as one of the members of the government who had been in the United States? Miss Bryant. You said those that I saw, Russians that I saw, and I never saw him in my life. I could not say that I had seen him when I had not seen him. I only know his wife. Mr. Hujies. All right ; but he came from Chicago ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Now, you say you were in Petrograd and in Moscow ? MissBRY'ANT. Yes. Mr. Humes. You were not out among the peasants, were you ? 524 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss Bryant. I never spent much time among them. Mr. Htjmes. You spent a great deal of time in Petrograd and Moscow ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. You ne\-er went out in one of those mirs and saw them there ? Miss Bryant. There were no mirs. ^Ir. Humes. So that the only peasants you know about are the ones that came into Petrograd and Moscow, and you saw in that way? Miss Bryant. Yes ; and at the great peasant congresses. Mr. HuiiES. The ones that came into Petrograd and Moscow were connected with the Bolshevik goveinment in some way, were they not? Miss Bryant. Not always. Even after the Kerensky government they came in to the great peasant congresses. They met there all the time. Senator Overman. Is it proposed by the Bolshevik government to nationalize their government all over, in all countries, in this country and others; and have you heard about their sending propaganda to this country? Miss Bryant. Yes.; T have heard a good deal about that. It is the socialist idea to have a socialist world. Senator O'S'erman. Part of their program is sending missionaries here and all through the world ? Miss Bryant. I do not know whether it is or not. I have said there is a great deal of talk about it in our American press. Senator Overman. In talking with Trotzlcy, was that his purpose? Miss Bryant. He did not ever discuss anything of that kind Avith me. Senator Wolcott. It is in some of their decrees, showing that that is their purpose. Senator Overman. Yes. Senator Sterling. You speak about these peasant congresses. Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Sterling. How many of these peasant congresses were held at the time while you were there at Petrograd? Miss Bryant. Two, and the peasants came from all over Russia. Senator Sterling. You say you attended those congresses? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Nelson. How many were there ? jNIiss Bryant. Two. Senator Nelson. How many people attended, I mean? Miss Bryant. Thousands of peasants from all over Russia. Senator Nelson. Thousands? Miss Bryant. Yes; delegates from all over Russia. Senator Sterling. What did they discuss there? Miss Bryant. They discussed land, peace, and bread, and showed great dissatisfaction that under the Kerensky government the land was not distiibuted ; that the land committees were not distributing the land, and they protested against it all the time. Senator Sterling. Yes; then they were protesting against the failure to distribute the land to the individual peasants, were they not? Miss Bryant. No; they were not. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 525 Senator Sterling. They were not ? Miss Bryant. They were not asking for individual ownership, and at each of those congresses I would like to point out that they went off to Smolny to make their declarations, and at one time Lenine came down and spoke to them^ust after the Soviets came into power over the Kerensky government — and they marched with Lenine up to the Smolny Institute, where the Bolshevik headquar- ters were, to show their approval and their solidarity. Senator Sterling. When was that? Miss Bryant. That was in November, just after the revolution. vSenator Sterling. Before the revolution? Miss Bryant. After; you see, at that time they were not all in favor of the Bolsheviki ; they were social revolutionists. Many of . the right wing Senator Sterling. They .were with the Whites ? Miss Bryant. No ; right, not white. Senator Sterling. They were not Bolsheviki at that time? Miss Bryant. No; and they are not now. They are simply work- ing with the soviet government; just as you could not say that the Eepublicans here are Democrats. But the majority are now left wingers. Senator Sterling. I understood you to say a while ago that all the peasants were Bolsheviki. Miss Bryant. No; I said they were in the government of the Bolsheviki; that the Bolsheviki are just a political party; that they are just a political party. Mr. HiTMES. What percentage of the provinces of Russia comes under the control of the soviet government? By that I mean what part does the present government control ? Miss Bryant. All except the Cadets. Mr. Humes. No; you misunderstand me. Miss Bryant. Yes? Mr. Humes. All Russia, geographically speaking, has not accepted and reco^ized the present soviet government, has it ? Miss Bryant. Well, it could not if it wanted to. Mr. Humes. Why not? Miss Bryant. Because part of it is under allied control, and they have destroyed the Soviets. Mr. Humes. The part that is not under allied control ? Miss Bryant. The part that is not under allied control I should certainly say was under soviet domination, all of it. Mr. Humes. All of it? Miss Bryant. All of it, so far as I know. Mr. Humes. In your opinion it is? Miss Bryant. Yes ; it is largely. Mr. Humes. Except where there are allied troops ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; all of great Russia. Mr. Humes. It is under the control of the present soviet govern- ment? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Wolcott. You said all of great Russia. You are exclud- ing Siberia ? 526 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss Bryant. Yes; because a good part of Siberia is under the control of the allied troops. They have overthrown the Soviets. Senator Wolcott. The allied troops are not covering much terri- tory at this time. Miss Brtant. Apart from that. I suppose it is all under the Soviets. It was. Mr. Humes. Do you not know that not to exceed one-fourth of European Eussia is under the control of the present government and recognizes the present government in any way ? Miss Brtant. What part of it does not ? Mr. Humes. I say, is it not a fact that only about one-fourth of it does recognize the present government ? Miss Bryant. All of great Eussia does recognize it. Mr. Humes. Do you know that? Miss Bryant. No ; I do not know any more than that it did when I was there. Mr. Humes. You are just assuming. Miss Bryant. Assuming; yes. Mr. Humes (continuing). That because the soviet government is in control of Petrograd and Moscow, therefore the soviet govern- ment controls the whole of Russia ? Miss Bryant. Yes; because j'ou see they send delegates in from local Soviets from every part of Eussia. Mr. Humes. Do you not know that there is testimony that it has only about one- fourth of Eussia ? Miss Bryant. I never understood that. I do not understand it. I do not believe it at all. Senator 0\'erman. There is a roll call on the floor of the Senate, and we will have to adjourn now. Senator Wolcott. Before we adjourn, Mr. Chairman, I would liki to ask just one question. Senator Overman. Very well. Senator Wolcott. In order to get it clear in my mind. Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Wolcott. The so-called Bolshevik revolution was in No- vember, 1917? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Wolcott. That is when they came in power ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Wolcott. You left Eussia in January, 1918 — the latter part of January ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; the latter part. Yes ; about the middle or the latter part. I do not remember the exact date. Senator Wolcott. November, December, January Miss Bryant. November, December, and January ; probably three months. Senator Wolcott. More likely two and a half months? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Wolcott. What day of November was it; November 7th? Miss Bryant. The very first part of November, I think— about the 6th. Senator Wolcott. November 7th, I think, was the date, when the Bolsheviki came in. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 527 Miss Brtant. Yes ; about then. Senator Wolcott. So that your information regarding Russia that you have of your own knowledge that was gathered under the Bolshevik regime was gathered in that two and a half months? Miss Brtant. Oh, yes ; the first-hand knowledge was ; yes. Senator Wolcott. What is that ? Miss Brtant. The first-hand knowledge was, of course. Senator Overman. We will take an adjournment until 10.30 o'clock to-morrow. Miss Brtant. I am to come back at 10.30 ? Senator Overman. Yes. Is there anything else you want to say? Miss Brtant. There are a few things that I would like to show you. I thought you would like to see them, and a few things I want to say. (Thereupon, at 5.40 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee adjourned until to-morrow, Friday, February 21, 1919, at 11 o'clock a. m."> BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. FRIDAY, FEBBTTARY 21, 1910, United States Senate SlTBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIAET, Washington, D. C. The subcommittee met at 11 lo'clock a. m., pursuant to adjourn- ment, in Eoom 226, Senate Office Building, Senator Lee S. Overman presiding. Present: Senators Overman (chairman), Wolcott, and Sterling. Senator Overman, The committee will come to order. TESTIMONY OF LOUISE BRYANT— Resumed. Mr. Humes. Miss Bryant, yesterday you testified that when you went to Russia you had credentials from the Philadelphia Public Ledger. Was that correct ? Miss Betant. Why, if you want to go into the whole arrange- ment, you probably know it very well yourself, that I had credentials from the Bell SjTidicate, which was taken over by the Ledger, and I also had credentials from the Metropolitan Magazine and the other magazines in America, so I do not think there is any point to that at all. Mr. Humes. I am not arguing about it, but I am trying to get the facts ; that is all. You said yesterday that you had credentials from the Philadelphia Public Ledger when you went to Russia, did you not? Miss Betant. I will tell you Mr. Humes. Did you not say that yesterday ? Miss Beyant. I am supposed to be the Philadelphia Public Ledger's correspondent, for which I wrote articles. Mr. Humes. You said you had credentials from them ? Miss Betant. It is not customary to go into the whole arrangements with a newspaper. Mr. Humes. Well, did you have credentials from the Philadelphia Public Ledger? _ _ ^. Miss Betant. From the Bell Syndicate, and when I came back T found that Mr. Wheeler, the manager, had gone to the war, so I switched to the Public Ledger and made a contract with them, and I did write my articles for them when I came back, and was adver- tised as their correspondent. , , , , , Mr. Humes. In other words, when you came back they bought a story from you ? 85723—19 34 530 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss Bryant. They did not buy a story from me : they bought the whole series of stories, '^-2 articles, of 3,000 words each, which were printed in about — I do not know — perhaps 100 newspapers. Mr. HuJiES. Well, it was a war story which was written serially in a number of assignments, was it not ( Miss Bryant. Xo: it was not one story; they were 3'2 separate articles. They were featured evei-ywhere. Mr. Humes. Inasmuch as you made the statement yesterday that you had credentials from the Philadelphia Public Ledger, I want to call your attention to a statement appearing in the Philadelphia Public Ledger this morning, and then ask you whether the Ledger is correct, or whether j'ou were correct in your testimony yesterday. The title of the editorial is " Miss Louise Bryant's wrong start," and it reads as follows : Miss Louise Bryant erred in lier testimony before the >>enate iiropaganda investigating committee when she saW that she went to Russia as a corre- spondent for the Philadelphia Public Ledger or that she had credentials fi'om this newspaper. The first Ivuowledge that the management of the Public Ledger had of Miss Bryant was wlien. upon her return from Russia, sli«> offered for sale a manuscript recounting her observations in that country. The manuscript was bouglit and published under her signature. Miss Bryant, now a propagandist for the Bolshevists, forgets that in her pro- fessional work it is essential that errors of statement sliould be so carefully selected that they can get at least l.'4 hours' start of truth to lie even moderately effective. Is that statement in the editorial correct, or is the statement you made yesterday, that j'ou went to Russia with credentials from the Philadelphia Public Ledger, correct ? Miss Bryant. I did not go with credentials from the Public Ledger, but the Public Ledger made me change my passes which I had from the soviet govermnent and write in the name of the Public Ledger, so that it would appear that I went with credentials from the Public Ledger ; so I hacl to cross out the name of the Bell Syndi- cate and put the name of the Public Ledger in there. I wanted to protect the Public Ledger as much as anyone else ; that is why I did not go into it yesterday. I would just as soon be known as the cor- respondent of the Bell Syndicate, which is just as worthy an organi- zation. I went to France for the Bell Syndicate. Mr. Humes. I am not questioning that. I am only trying to find out just what the fact is. You said yesterday that you went as a war correspondent to Russia i Miss Bryant. Yes ; I did. ]Mr. Humes. And that you went with credentials from the Phila- delphia Public Ledger. Xow, the fact remains tliat the credentials you had were from the Bell Syndicate, and that you had no creden- tials from the Philadelphia Public Ledger ; and that all your rela- tions, contractual and otherwise, with the Public Ledger were en- tered into after your return to this coimtry; is not that true? Miss Bryant. As soon as I got back to this country the Philadel- phia Public Ledger telegraphed me and said, '" Do not write any articles imtil you have seen us. Come to Philadelphia to see our representative," and I went there at their instance; and when I got there they were very anxious that I should not write these articles for the Bell Syndicate, but should write them for them. BOIiSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 531 Mr. Humes. Well, there is no question but that you wrote articles for the Public Ledger, but that is not the issue. The issue is as to whether or not, when you were in Russia, you had credentials from the Ledger. You did not, did you ? Miss Bryant. No. Mr. Humes, may I make a statement here without being interrupted ? It will take me only a minute. Will you give me that permission ? You have let every other witness do this. I ask that permission. I knew that was what you were doing yester- day, but I did not know whether I ought to go into the whole arrange- ment or not. Senator Overman, I want to know if I will be permitted to speak a whole sentence before this committee without being interrupted ? Senator Overman. You may. Miss Bryant. Then, I want to know why, after my testimony yesterday, you sent a telegram to Mr. Williams, whom you accused of spreading Bolshevik propaganda, and said, " Disregard telegram of February 19. Subpoena withdrawn." And if it is also trvie that you withdrew the subpcena to Col. Eobins because you were afraid too much truth would come out here ? Mr. Humes. I do not know that I am on the witness stand, or that it is a matter with which the witness is concerned. Miss Bryant. This telegram is signed by Lee S. Overman, chair- man. Is that correct? Senator Ovee:man. Mr. Humes has authority to sign my name to all subpoenas to witnesses and to discharge witnesses. He has the autliority to sign my name. I did not sign it personally. Mr. Humes sent it personally, I suppose. Miss Bryant. Mr. Williams was continually under discussion here. Senator OvERjfAN. We telegraphed him to come here. Miss Bryant. He will be here at 4.30 this afternoon. Mr. Humes. We wired Mr. Williams to come, and we got no re- sponse, so I canceled the telegram I sent to him. Miss Bryant. Did you not also cancel the one to Col. Eobins? Mr. Hu.MEs. Col. Eobins has never been subpoenaed, so you are quite in error there. Senator Overman. I want to say that we have under discussion what we are going to do, on account of the shortness of the time be- before this session of. Congress expires. The committee has not yet decided. Miss Bryant. I see. But, nevertheless, you have given about two weeks to undersecretaries of the Y. M. C. A. and bank clerks. Senator Overman. Will you let me talk, and I will let you talk. You will let me talk, will you not? I was going to say, and explain to you, that we have imder discussion whether or not we want to ad- journ this over for two weeks in order that the Senators may attend to their business in the Senate. Miss Bryant. And so that they can pass a law first? Senator Overman. Pass what law*? Miss Bryant. Pass a law about free speech and free press which is pending in the Senate? Senator Overman. I do not know what may be done about that. I do not know whether we are going on with this investigation or not. That is a matter for discussion and decision hereafter. The 532 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGAITDA. Senators have been kept from the Senate Chamber while all these great measures have been considered, and we have under discussion whether or not we want to continue. Miss Bryant. Senator Overman, I object to Eussian politicians coming here, and people with all sorts of picayune little grievances that can talk all they want about Eussia, but if any one gets up and says he does not believe that American troops ought to be kept in Eussia, or he believes in self-determination, that American is treated as a traitor. I object to that. Senator Overman. Nobody has treated you as a traitor. Miss Bryant. I think you did yesterday. Senator Overman. In what way? What complaint have you got? I would like to know what complaint you have. Miss Bryant. Well, I was not allowed to speak; I was only asked questions. Senator Overman. I told you to come back this morning and I would hear your statement, did I not? Miss Bryant. Then, will I be allowed to go on? Senator Overman. Certainly. Now, you have complained to this committee, and I want to know what complaint 3'ou have. You seem to want to make a martyr of yourself, when you have not beJen treated unfairly that I can see. You are a woman and you do not know anything about the conduct of an examination such as we have in hand here. We are going to treat you fairly and treat you as a ladj\ Miss Bryant. I do not want to be treated as a lady, but I want to be treated as a human being. Senator Overman. I want to treat you not only as an American citizen, as a witness, and as a lady, but I want to know what com- plaint you have got. Because I closed this meeting the other day and sent the people out, is that your complaint? Miss Bryant. No ; it was the whole conduct of the meeting that I objected to. Senator Sterling. Miss Bryant, let me just tell you that you are managing, it appears to me, or trying, to create a whole lot of sym- pathy. You are trying to work yourself up to believe that you are being martyred here. Now, you have been treated most kindly and considerately. The chairman of this committee could not treat you in anj' other way than that, and I am sure that is also true of the other members of the committee. Miss Bryant. Do you call Senator King's treatment particularly gentle ? Senator Sterling. I did not hear a word of Senator King's exami- nation, but from what I heard about it I do not think there was any- thing in it about which 3'ou can complain. Miss Bryant. I think everybody in this room would testify that it was not very gentle. It was a sort of third degree. Senator Oversian. I tried to explain to you that Senator King has been a judge on the bench and has had these matters come up, fre- quently, of witnesses who were charged with having no faith in the Christian religion, and not believing in God, and he had to go throueh that cross-examination and ask you those questions. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 533 Miss Betant. How would he have treated me if I had been a Jew ? Senator Overman. He would have asked you the same questions, if anybody had charged that you did not believe in God, as it has been charged with respect to these Bolsheviki. Whether you do or not I do not know, and therefore I am not accusing you. I do not know whether I would have asked you those questions or not, myself, but he did it, and I do not think lie intended any disrespect to you. I do not think so. I am sure I want to treat you with the greatest respect. You told me yesterday that you had been asked questions, and you complained that you had not been able to make your statement. I told you that if you came back in the morning I would see that you did make your statement, and I want you to go on and make what statement you have to make. But I would like to know why you com- plain that you have been treated so badly. I do not know what your complaints are except that you were asked a few questions prelimi- nary, by Senator King. If you have any other complaint to the com- mittee, I ask you to state it so that we may know. Miss Bryant. My principal complaint is that the witnesses who know the most about Kussia are not called; people who know most about Russia. People who were sent there in official capacities are not called. Senator Overman. That does not affect you personally. Miss Betant. But it affects me a great deal, because I have been asked what they think. Senator Overman. We have given you every opportunity, and we want you to go on and make your statement, and I will hear any state- ment you have got to make. But this refusing to call other witnesses is a question to be determined. I do not know whether we are going to call them or not. So if you do not know what we are going to do, why do you say that ? Miss Bryant. I have this telegram, and I also heard other nimors to-day. Senator Overman. As far as you are concerned personally, we have not mistreated you, have we? Miss Bryant. I am not admitting that at all. Senator. Senator Overman. I would like to know what your complaint is. Miss Bryant. I do not want to go into it. Senator Overman. Will you not tell us ? Miss Bryant. It was perfectly obvious to everybody that was in this room. I will not go into it. Senator Overman. If you do not explain what your complaint is, I can not correct it. I would like to correct any mistreatment of you, and I want to treat you with the utmost fairness. Now you can go ahead and make your statement. You know you will be treated fairly by me ; you know that. I am the chairman of this committee ; and I think the other Senators will agree with me that you shall be -treated with the greatest respect. Your main complaint is, as I understand it, that we have not called other witnesses. When you came here and asked to be heard. I told you you should be heard, did I not ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; you did the first day ; and the second day you did not promise me. Senator Overman. I did give you a hearing, whether I promised you or not. 534 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. Miss Beyaxt. Yes: you did afterwards. Senator Overjiax. I told you I could not promise any certain par- ticular day. Mr. AVilliams has never asked to be heard, that I know of. Miss Brvaxt. He came up here to the public hearing and asked to be heard. Senator O^-erjiax. You are the only witness that I know of who has asked to be heard, except for a number of letters that I have re- ceived from people asking to be heard. Miss Bryant. But it is the same thing if people have sent letters when they could not come here. Senator Overjiax. Now we understand each other. Mr. Humes. Who have sent letters asking to be heard? Miss Brtaxt. Miss Beatty did, for one; and Mr. Keed did. Mr. Humes. Mr. Eeed ? Miss Bryaxt. Yes. Senator OvERitAX. That is your husband ? Miss Bryaxt. Yes. Mr. HujiES. I have never seen that letter. Senator Overmax. He sent me a note while you were testifying; but I thought if I could put you on the stand it would clear up some of these matters. That is all that I can recollect. Mr. JoHx Eeed. I have written you a letter, too, Senator Overman. Senator Overmax. All right; I will not deny it. I may have re- ceived it. and my secretary may have it on file. I do not know. Mr. Eeed, JNIiss Beatty, and who else? Miss Bryaxt. I am sure that Mr. Keddie and different officials in Philadelphia have sent letters. Senator O^TiRMAx. Is that the man you spoke of — Mr. Keddie? Mr. Humes. Mr. Keddie has not asked to be heard. Miss Bryaxt. Some of those people have, because they published statements in papers saying they ought to be heard. Mr. Humes. Many letters have come suggesting that certain people could prove this or prove that, but there has been no direct request from Mr. Keddie. Miss Bryant. The general impression is, nevertheless, Mr. Humes, that 3'ou are only calling one side here. You must know that that is the general impression. Senator Overmax. Under the resolution, we are investigating the Bolshevik government in Eussia. Mr. Humes. The fact that you are permitted to testify is a complete answer to your statement. That shows there is nothing one-sided about the matter. You are here as a champion of the Bolshevik government. Miss Bryaxt. I am not. I have nothing to do with that at all. Mr. Humes. You say there are two sides. It is only a question of fact. How do you happen to say that ? How do you happen to be talking about " two sides"? Miss Bryaxt. Because these people who have testified before me are absolutely against everything in revolutionary Eussia, and I am neither for nor against. I am trying to tell it as an observer. Mr. Humes. You have not heard their testimony, have you? Miss Bry'ant. I have been right here in this court and heard it. As long as they testified about people starving and people falling down BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ^35 in the streets, and all that, and about there being perfect chaos in Russia, it was all right; but the minute anybody began to testify that Trotzky was an extraordinary person,, or anything lilie that', they were dismissed. Mr. Humes. Have you heard any witness testify here that favored the restoration of the monarchy in Kussia? Have you heard them say that they were in favor of the restoration of the monarchy, or any such thing as that ? Miss Bryant. I heard Kryshtofovich, and you know he worked for the Tsar's Government. I think he is quite in favor of the Czar. He talked as a monarchist. Mr. Humes. You had better read his testimony, if you think that. Miss Bexant. He has not been in favor of either the provisional government or tlie soviet government. Mr. Humes. He was not expressing his own opinion on anything. He told the conditions under all of the governments. Senator Sterling. Your testimony here, taking it as a whole, Avhat- ever you may have said in regard to one or another particular mat- ter, has put you in the position of a partisan and friend and defender of the Bolsheviki. You l?now that. Anybody gets that impression from your examination. Miss Bryant. Surely. Why not? Senator Sterling. Both the examination in chief and the re- examination. You are defending them all the while. Miss Bryant. Of course. Any fair statement appears so to you. And I was given lectures. Senator Steeling. You were not given lectures. You were cross- examined. You must submit to cross-examination when it comes. After you have testified we have to ask you questions on cross-exami- nation, and because we have done so you have gotten the impression that we were hostile to you. Miss Brfant. Even my morals have been suggested by Senator Nelson. He has given me regular lectures as to what I ought to think, and how I might, somehow, come out of this terrible slump that I have gotten into. Senator Steeling. Senator Nelson asked you questions that were perfectly proper, and that were material. Miss Beyant. He did not ask me questions. He lectured me. May I go on ? Senator Overman. I am sorry. I had great respect for you. I thought highly of your ability, and was rather impressed with you yesterday; but now you come in this morning, and from what you say I want to say that I am impressed Avith the fact that j'ou are trying to make yourself out a martyr. Miss Bryant. No.; I am not. Don't you believe it. Senator Overman. I have asked you to state in what way the com- mittee had treated you badly, and you said that you would not state. Miss Bryant. May I go on with my testimony? That is my prin- cipal business here, and I wish that I could. Senator Overman. Yes, you may go on. Miss Beyant. Yesterday, when I offered to read various things out of soviet decrees and other things, Mr. Humes objected and said that those things were not trustworthy : but you will agree that the 536 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGAISDA. Congressional Kecord is trustworthy and fair, will you not? [Laugh- ter.] Senator Overman. No, I would not admit that, I think. Now, let us come down and be serious. Miss Bbyant. On January 29 certain statements were made by Senator Johnson, and some of those statements concerned myself, al- though he did not mention my name. He said the State Department allowed cable messages to be sent to Russia [reading] : The messages were sent not only with the approval of the Government, bat through the Government's agencies and at the Government's expense. * * • These messages were gathered by a person designated by the authorities and were sent to Washington to be forwarded through the State Department to Petrograd. I was given permission to do that, and I collected messages, and these messages were sent over to Russia — this was just after Brest- Litovsk — urging the Russians to come back into the war and stay by their old peace formula. At the same time Mr. Steffens came to me I Senator Overman. State who Mr. Steffens is. J Miss Bryant. Lincoln Steffens. He came to me from Mr. Creel. Senator Wolcott. That does not give me any information. Miss Bryant. If you will let me finish my sentence, you will get it. Senator Wolcott. All right. -^ Miss Bryant. Mr. Steffens came to me and said that he wanted me to sign a cablegram to Mr. Reed, who was then in Stockholm, to go back to Russia and try to pursuade Lenine and Trotzky that Mr. Wilson is sincere. I think if you will call Mr. Reed he will tell you; about that, too. 1 Senator Wolcott. I am still waiting for you to tell me whoj Steffens is. Miss Bryant. Lincoln Steffens? Senator Wolcott. Yes. Miss Bryant. He is one of the best known writers in the Unitedl States — probably the best known writer in the United States. Senator Sterling. A Socialist ? Miss Bryant. Will you please tell me why it makes any differenca whether a person is a Socialist or not ? Senator Sterling. I am not on the witness stand. Miss Bryant. But you say " Socialist " as if it was a condemnation] of him. ( Senator Steeling. I ask you a civil question, and I do not wantj you to go out and complain about that, when I asked you whetherj, he was a Socialist. You pretend to be. That is what has led you'i to your association with the Bolsheviki, the fact that you are a^ Socialist. ", Miss Bryant. How do you know that it is ? -, Senator Steeling. You can not parade before the public the fact,, that you are a martyr when you are refusing to answer a civil question. ' I asked you if Steffens is a Socialist. j Miss Bryant. I think he is a Socialist ; I am not sure. * Senator Sterling. Then, why did you not answer that he was? tj Miss Bryant. Did you ever ask me if a man here is a Republican,, or a Democrat ? BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 537 Senator Steeling. I am not here for the purpose of answering ijji questions, but we are here to investigate these allied organizations :o some extent. j.^ Miss Bryant. You see, Mr. Steffens came from Mr. Creel. You Jprobably know his politics. *: Senator WoiiCOTT. What is it? I do not know. ,"^ Miss Bryant. I suppose he is a Democrat. Senator Overman. Is he a Socialist? •h Miss Bryant. He is not, I am sure. *• Senator Overman. Now, you could have answered that in regard ij^.o Mr. Steffens, whether he is or not. You say you do not know. ■ Miss Bryant. I did answer, but he shouted " Socialist ! " to me. I Senator Overman. That was a perfectly civil question. f Miss Bryant. When I brought certain papers up here yesterday, the ^'Tiinute I started to read them you would say, " Those are printed in ,"1 Socialist paper ? " and surely this implied that there was something wrong about them if they were printed in Socialist papers. Senator Overman. No ; we wanted to know the source from which ;hey came. "" Mr. Humes. Proceed with your statement. ™* Miss Bryant. I sent these messages out, and at that time President !?Wilson had sent his very friendly message to the congress of soviets ;hat were meeting in Moscow. W Senator Wolcott. That was July 3 ? n& Miss Bryant. Yes; that was one message, and we were given to ^understand that America was about to recognize the soviet govern- 'i'^-nent, and that is why I sent those messages ; and those messages ap- Deared in the soldiers' and workers' papers on the front page, and the " I'-Oommittee on Public Information, of course, could not have gotten ihat sort of publicity, because they were discredited in Russia on iccount of Mr. Sisson's activities. I would like also to speak about the so-called Sisson documents, :it;hat were published in this country. If I thought that Mr. Raymond MiifRobins Avas to be called, I would not go into that, because it would lot be necessary to ; but since I do not know, I think it is necessary. ^it Raymond Robins had these documents, "most of them, a long time jefore Mr. Siss' i came to Russia. He gave them to Mr. Sisson as in interestira p^ lample of forged documents. Mr. Robins told me ii.it;hat himselS.T^'"'i-he presence of a good many other witnesses. Senatorj]/ ^eman. Let me suggest this to you IJii!' Missai^-NT. Yes. jjgi Senat^ Overman. Do you know that of your own knowledge? jtV Mifot^.EYANT. Yes; absolutely. UK Sek .or Overman. From whom? IVvBS Bryant. Mr. Robins himself, in the presence of witnesses. Senator Overman. That is not competent testimony. Mr. Robins ,Akn speak for himself. But I have told you to state what you know. ifilfou are on the stand, and we want you to tell what you know. ^ Miss Bryant. I do know that. Senator Wolcott. Apparently you do not know that. ;,,l!| Miss Bryant. Why do I not know it? w Senator Wolcott. You know that Mr. Robins told you that. Miss Bryant. Yes ; I know he told me that. 538 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Wolcott. That is all you know. Miss Bryant. I know more than that. When these documents began to be published I wrote a letter to Mr. Creel, sajdng that I would stake my life on the fact that these documents were fakes and Mr. Creel MTote back to me and said Senator 0^'erjiax. Have you got that Creel letter'^ Miss Bryant. I have not got it here, but it was published in the New York Evening Post, and you can get it. I can give you that letter. Senator Sterling. Of what date was it published? Miss Bryant. It was just at that time, about the third day after the Sisson documents began to come out in the press. Senator Wolcott. They were published by our State Department. Miss Bryant. No; by the Committee on Public Information. Senator Wolcott. Were they given out by that committee as trustworthy documents I Miss Bryant. They certainly were. Mr. Creel wrote to me ami said that he believed in them, but he admitted that a number of them could easily be faked, and then he went on to say that the Government was behind this, and for me to remember it ; and I do not think that Mr. Creel was any better American, printing something he was not sure o,f, causing great hostility between two great countries, than 1 was because I did not think these things were genuine, and therefore should not be given out as genuine. Senator Sterling. When you say " hostility between two great countries." you mean between the United States and what other country — Russia ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator, Sterlinc;. Eussia as a whole, or do you mean simply the Bolshevik government I Miss Bryant. You see, I consider the soviet government — ^there is no Bolshevik government, and I consider the soviet government— as the real government of Russia ; and certainly representing the majority of the people. Senator Sterling. Is this not a fact, that the soviet government of Russia is dictated l)y the Bolsheviks? They are in control, are they not? Miss Bryant. They are a political party. You col ' ^ say that the Democrats, by the same logic, dictated the American Gco:ernment in the same way. It is not really true. Senator Steeling. Just one word about this soviet go 'ernment. The members of the different Soviets in Russia are not necessarily residents, are they, of the districts which they may be seilt there from ? S Miss Bryant. They can not be sent there to those districts, ''hat was air absolutely erroneous statement. Senator Sterling. You heard the statement of several witnesses to that effect, did you not ? Miss Bryant. I only heard the statement of one to that effect, that of Madame Breshkovskaya. She really does not know about the soviet government. Senator Sterling. Do you know anything particularly about it since you left there in January, 1918 ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 539 Miss Bryant. I know the principle it is founded on, and it does not permit that. Senator Sterling. Do not get agitated over the matter, but just answer the question. Do you know, as a matter of fact, whether or not all members of the Soviets have been residents of the districts for Avhich they were members, since you left there ? Miss Bryant. Certainly. Senator Sterling. You know it, do you? Miss Bryant. Tliey could not change that. Senator Sterling. They could not change that? Have not men been sent from Moscow to other districts to act as the soviet repre- sentatives in those other districts? Miss Bryant. No ; it does not work that way. They are sent from the local Soviets into Moscow. That is the way it works. Senator Sterling. Of course, the local soviet may Miss Bryant. It must send its delegate in. Senator Sterling. Yes; it may send its delegate in; but are not delegates to local Soviets sent Miss Bryant. No! Senator Sterling. And members of the local Soviets sent out? Miss Bryant. No; that is not the Avay it works. The delegates are sent in to the contral body. Mr. Humes. Is there anything in the soviet constitution that re- quires residents of the districts to be sent as members of the soviet? Miss Bryant. You understand exactly how it works, do you not? It has been explained how the Soviets work and all that? Mr. Humes. Is there anything in the constitution that requires a member of a soviet to be a resident of the district that he represents in the soviet ? Miss Bryant. Why, surely Mr. Humes. Just answer that question. Miss Bryant. I can not answer a question like that, yes or no. That is where you take advantage of me, or try to take advantage of me, all the time. Major. You ask me to answer yes or no. Mr. Humes. I do not care whether you answer yes or no, but I want a*i answer that is responsive to the question. Miss Bryant. Is there anything in the constitution that requires a man to be a member of the soviet in which he lives ? Senator Sterling. To be a resident of the district? Mr. Humes. Is there anything in the constitution that requires that a man be a resident of the district which he serves in the soviet? Miss Bryant. I would have to look that up in the constitution. I am not sure about that; but I know perfectly well that that is the whole principle of the soviet government. Mr. Humes. You are talking from the principles of the soviet government yourself, and you do not know what the application of them is? Miss Bryant. I do know the application. Mr. Humes. Do you? Miss Bryant. Yes; of course. Mr. Humes. You are assuming Miss Bryant. Yes ; and all the time that I 540 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. You are assuming that the application is in compli- ance with the principles ? Miss Bryant. Yes, of course; and that is the same way Mr. Humes (continuing). And you do not know what the applica- tion is, of your own knowledge ? Miss Bryant. Why, any more than I could say that I do not know of my own knowledge that Senators do not come from the States that they are elected from. I say that the whole principle of our country is such, but I could not say that I know it as a fact. I did not see each one come. Mr. Humes. You know that the Constitution of the United States requires that the Members of the Senate be residents of the States from which they are elected, do you not? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Well, does the soviet constitution require a member of the soviet to be a resident of the district for which he serves in the soviet ? Miss Bryant. Oh, I do not know, but I feel sure it does. Senator Sterling. Have you read the constitution ? Miss Bryant. Yes; I have read it, but I do not remember that par- ticular point. But we have the constitution here, and you can easily find that out. Mr. Humes. I have read it very carefully and I can not find any requirement of residence in the constitution. Miss BRrANT. Why did you think that they did not reside there, because Babushka said that they were all sent out Mr. Humes. Because people have testified here that they were present when members of the soviet were elected and that they were people from outside of the district in which they were elected. That is why. Senator Sterling. More than one witness has testified to that. Miss Bryant. You have several witnesses who worked in the soyiet government and are expert on it who can give you very expert evi- dence on that. Senator Wolcott. It is not a case for expert testimony ; it is a case of observation. Miss Bryant. I want to go back, since it has taken up so much time, to this nationalization of women. I am very much interested in this. In the first place, they have equal suffrage in Eussia, and I can not imagine how anybody would suppose that women would vote for their own nationalization. In the second place, women have always been very important m Russia. I consider that Russian women are even more belligerent than Russian men. I think that Russian men would not dare to sug- gest such a thing to Russian women, and I know the place and the importance of women under the soviet. Madame KoUontay, who is head of the department of welfare, has set up all sorts of splendid reforms for women in Russia. She has established, for one thing) what she calls palaces of motherhood. Women, two months before confinement, are paid their full salaries and are allowed to rest. They do not have to go to work for two months afterwards and their doctors and nurses are paid for by the State. That is one of the reforms. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 541 Senator Overkan. Eight here let me ask you a question. Miss Bryant. Yes. Senator Overman. It was stated here by one witness that they be- haved m taking the children away from the mothers. Miss Bryant. That is not true, and I wanted particularly to go into ■h 1. i- *■ P^^*^®' Ma^iame KoUontay's whole idea is to do away with the dismal charitable institutions like orphan asylums. Her idea was to put the children of peasants back into peasant homes, where they would have individual care and be made a part of the family, and she was working on that and had gotten along a good ways on that when I was there. She had gone a long ways toward working that out. They do not have child labor in Russia. Women are ac- cepted on an equal basis with men, getting equal pay for equal work. They have an equal place in the labor unions. They are not excluded from any kind of work. I never have been in a country where women were as free as they are in Russia and where they are treated not as females but as human beings. When a woman gets up at a public meeting and makes a speech nobody thinks about her being a lady or about what kind of a hat she happens to wear. ' They just think of what she says. It is a very healthy country for a suffragist to go into. They asked me when I was in Russia about how many women we had in Congress and in the Senate. I would like to tell you this, if I may be permitted. Senator Sterling. Yes. Miss Bryant. I told them about Jeannette Rankin, that we had one in Congress, and that we had made quite a fuss over her, and we did not know whether we would ever have another one. They were quite surprised. They could not understand, when we had had democracy here so long, that our women, most of them, were not even enfran- chised. So that you see they criticize us in many ways just as we criticize them. But they never went to the extent that they said that everybody in the United States was a Mormon because there is Mormonism in the United States. They never went to the point where they said all Congressmen and Senators are Holy Rollers be- cause we have Holy Rollers here. They read our marriage laws and understood them, although they consider them ridiculous. But we in United States have taken a little bit of a decree printed by an an- archist club and made it the expression of all Russia ; and that is what 1 want to speak of, because T can not believe that an}' man on this committee can be so gullible that he can believe that the women of Russia are nationalized. Mr. Humes. Was there not something else besides that decree in- troduced in evidence here ? Miss Bryant. No. Mr. Simmons said it was printed in a paper there. That does not prove anything. I would like to tell you about that. Mr. Humes. No; it was not with reference to a decree published in a paper, or not published, but it was with reference to another decree than the anarchist decree. F Miss Bryant. Did you say it was anything else but an anarchist decree ? a Mr. Humes. Absolutely. Now, let me ask you, where is Kronstadt, and what is Kronstadt? 542 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss Bryaxt. It is the naval base. Mr. HtJJiES. A naval base. Just where is Kronstadt? Miss Bryant. It is near Petrograd. Mr. HuJiEs. And is it not the center of much of the Bolshevik revolution i Miss Bryaxt. Yes ; the Kronstadt sailors are Bolsheviks. Mr. HiJiEs. Did you not know that the soviet or the soldiers and sailors of Kronstadt also took action in this matter ? Miss Bryant. I know that is not true, because a woman who was the head of the soviet there Mr. Humes. What is that? Miss Bryant. There was a woman at the head of the soviet in Kronstadt, a Madame Stahl, a very splendid woman, who believed in the equality of women, and she certainly never put over anything like that on her own sex. Mr. HtTMEs. Then, you say that the sailors at Kronstadt never passed such a decree? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. And that the statement to that effect is the anarchist decree, the authenticity of which, you admit, is not correct? Miss Bri'ant. Yes; I believe it is not correct. Mr. Humes. You believe it is not correct ? Miss Bryant. Yes; I am sure it is not correct. How could it be? Mr. Humes. Do you believe that the Izvestija Miss Bryant. Have you the Izvestija? You said this was in the Izvestija, and I found out by looking up my notes that it was never printed in the Izvestija but in this [indicating paper]. I will tell you Mr. Hu3ies. You leceive the Izvestija in this country? Miss Bryant. I see it in this country. Mr. Humes. How many issues of it have you seen ? Miss Bryant. I have seen quite a few. Mr. Humes. Is it a daily paper? Miss Bryant. It has been printed daily. I do not know whether it has always been or not. Mr. Humes. Can you read Russian ? Miss Bryant. Yes; slowly. Mr. Humes. Since you came back, in January, 1918, how many copies of the Izvestija liave you seen? Miss Bryant. Oh, my, I have piles of them that were brought back. Mr. Williams brought back a whole trunkful. Mr. Humes. How many? Miss Bryant. I do not know the exact number. Mr. Humes. When did Williams leave Petrograd? Miss Bryant. I do not know the exact day he left Petrograd, but he has been here less than two months. Mr. Humes. He came out through Siberia, did he not? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. He left Petrograd in the middle of the summer, did he not? Miss Bryant. He left after all this came out. Mr. Humes. How do you know when this came up ? Bolshevik propaganda. 543 Miss Bryant. It was Supposed to be in July, was it not, or some- thing like that ? Mr. Humes. How do you fix the time of it? I thought it never came up at all. Miss Bryant. I fix the time by the fact that Jerome Davis, who was head of the Y. M. C. A., said that he personally investigated the Vladimir story, the one that you are particularly anxious to prove was a soviet affair, and he said that he went there, and it was not true. He is head of the Y. M. C. A., and I should not think that he would make a false statement. Mr. Humes. When did he go there ? Miss Bryant. He went there when he heard this rmnor, and he found that there was nothing in it at all ; that it had nothing to do with the soviet. Mr. Humes. Did he say when he made the inquiry ? Miss Bryant. I mean that he made the inquiry after it came up. He does not say how many days after, or how long after, but he is very willing to testify, and he can tell you. did yesterday. Mr. Humes. It did come up in Russia? Miss Bryant. Yes; of course, it was printed as an anarchist de- cree ; but if you will let me go on I can tell you more about it than I did yesterday. Senator Wolcott. You will get to tell about it. Mr. Humes. We will let you tell anything about whatever you have knowledge of. You say they investigated there this anarchist decree that was published ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. And did he ever tell you of the publication of the decree in the Izestija? Did he say anything about that? Miss Brya>;t. It is not a very large story, but he wants to testify here. He can tell you all about it. He says he has absolute knowl- edge about it. Mr. Humes. Do you mean to say he has asked to testify? Miss Bryant. I hope that he is asked to testify. I believe he has — I hope he is called, because he has all this knowledge; and sni-ely, if you are particularly anxious to know Mr. Humes. I have in my pocket his official report to the Govern- ment. Miss Bryant. Well Mr. HuJiES. I assume that he would testify to the same things that he put in the official report ; do you not suppose he would ? Miss Bryant. I do not know. I suppose so. But I should think he would be the one to testify. Mr. Humes. To judge whether his report to the Government is cor- rect or not ? Do you not think that the official report that Mr. Davis made to the Government would probably answer the purposes of the inquiry ? Miss Bryant. Not at all. I should think there would be no objec- tion to asldng Mr. Davis what he meant by making a public state- ment that he had investigated this matter, and founcl it to be false. Mr. Humes. Mr. Davis is not under investigation. Miss Bryant. He made an investigation, I said. 544 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGAIiDA. Mr. Htjmes. Did Mr. Davis say anything about investigating the action of the soviet at Kronstadt ? Miss Bryant. He said that there were some anarchist societies at that time, but they were afterwards suppressed by the Bolshevik' and that the anarchists of Moscow had to have machine guns brought out to put them out of business. This happened, as you may know around in a great many places in Russia. ' Mr. Humes. Did you ever see it happen? Miss Betant. Yes ; I saw them fighting with the anarchists. Mr. Humes. How frequently? Miss Bryant. Whenever it was necessary. Mr. Humes. How frequently; twice, a dozen times, or how fre- quently ? This is a very material fact in relation to Russia. Miss Bryant. Whenever the anarchists tried to confiscate property without the plan of the Soviets, which was very definite ; and if they went to live in the palaces or acted in any other way than that ap- proved of. The palaces were turned into people's museums, and they were full of precious art, and the Russians love their art, and they did not want it destroyed in any way, so they turned these palaces into people's museums as the French did. Mr. HuaiES. How many people did you see shot at and killed or wounded ? Miss Bryant. Well, there were street battles when I was in Petro- grad, and there was firing going on all the time. Mr. Humes. There was firing going on all the time? Miss Bryant. Of course ; it was civil war, as I have said. Mr. Humes. Usually, when that firing was going on, some one was killed, was he not ? Miss Betant. Not always. By no means. Mr. Humes. Half the time? Miss Bryant. No, sir. Mr. Humes. How many times did you see people killed under those circumstances ? Miss Bryant. I told you. I told you all about that and how many I saw killed yesterday. Mr. Humes. You said there was only one case where you saw any- one killed. Miss Bryant. No ; I said two cases. Mr. Humes. One was when a motor car came down the street and did the firing ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. The other was simply an isolated case of the shooting of an individual? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. You have just stated that these fights with anarchists were a common happening. Miss Bryant. Well, they were ; you see Mr. Humes. And you saw them? Miss Bryant. This is the way it was. When you were going through the streets sometimes there was shooting; I mean we could hear firing; and then again we would ask for reports and the officials told us about various things and what was going on, and in that way BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 545 we found out and knew what it was. "We did not see people actually being killed, but we found that there was fighting going on. Mr. Htjmes. This shooting was going on on the streets ? Miss Bryant. Yes. ■ Mr. Humes. I understood you to say yesterday that it Avas very seldom that there was any shooting on the streets, and here you say^ — Miss Betant. I did not mean you to understand that. I said that there was a state of civil war. I said no one bothered me. I was not armed. Senator Steeling. I got altogether a different impression. I want to ask you the question if you did not seek to convey the impression in your testimony of yesterday that it was quite orderly in Petrograd, and that there was very little destitution ? Miss Beyant. I said there was no more destitution in the Soviets than imder Kerensky ; that it was always disorganized since the be- ginning of the war. Will you let me finish with this decree? You asked me a question. Mr. Humes. We will confine it to this one subject of the nationaliza- tion of women. Miss Bryant. About Vladimir. The first four paragraphs of that decree of Vladimir are the original decree. The rest were added as a satire by a comic paper, the Moocka, which means the fly. It was published in the late spring of 1918 in Moscow, and it was considered nothing but a great joke in Russia. . Mr. Humes. The material that was added, then, in the comic paper in Eussia was such material as we in the United States consider ob- scene matter, was it not ? ■ Miss Bryant. Oh, no ; not at all. Not anyway in Eussia. _ Mr. Humes. Do you mean to say that the, contents of this decree, after the first four paragraphs, is not of an obscene nature that would never be permitted in public print in this country ? Miss Beyant. I will explain to you first Mr. Humes. Just answer the question and then explain. You can make any explanation you want. Miss Beyant. Yes ; but Mr. Humes. It would not be permitted in this country ? Miss Beyant. Yes. Now, let me explain. Mr. Humes. Let me ask you, is it not a fact, then, that the respect for women and respect for morals was not at the high point that you have undertaken to convey, if material of that kind was being printed in the comic papers of Eussia as a joke, and looked upon as a joke, rather than as a serious infringement of any moral code of any civ- ilized race? Miss Bryant. The same thing was printed in France as a comic thing. You see, the Russians and the French, and all European peoples do not have our puritanical ideas about what they should print and what they should not print. They think these things are very funny. We in America would not allow a single line or illus- tration printed in a paper of the ordinary French comic illustrated sheet to pass through our mails. We do not believe in these things, but those people think they are humorous ; they think they are funny. 85723—19 35 546 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. ]\Ir. HuJiES. Then, the moral code of America is very much higher than that of the Eussians ? INIiss Bryant. I would not say it is higher. It is very different ; not so flexible. I would not say it was any higher. I would say that we were more puritanical and less sophisticated than they are over there. Mr. Humes. You think that the Eussian and French practice of printing this obscenity in a humorous vein is preferable to our code of morals which disapproves of such practices? Miss Beta NT. I do not say it is preferable, but like all European things, I think it is not my business as an American to tell the Rus- sians or the French what to print in their papers, so I have looked at it just as a neutral observer, not taking a stand on it one way or another. Mr. Humes. Do you think we are puritanical when we disapprove of that sort of thing ? Miss Bryant. I think we are, as compared to what other countries allow to be printed in their papers. My whole point about Russia is that we are interfering too much in her affairs. In a little while we will be telling the Eussians what they shall put on in their theaters. We do not allow them to do what they desire. Mr. Humes. You approve, do you, of the decrets, the so-called legislation, or dictatorial legislation, that has been enacted by the Eussian government? Miss Bryant. I told you yesterday that I neither approve nor dis- approve. The one point that I have made right straight along, and that I am not going to be swerved from, is that I do not believe in intervention, and I do not believe America has any right to go into Eussia and send a force of American boys there to fight and settle the internal affairs of Eussia ; because no one came into our country during our Civil War, even during Sherman's march from Atlanta to the sea, which was certainly considered a little ruthless by the European world. Mr. Humes. Then you believe that Eussia should have absolute self-determination ? Miss Bryant. I certainly do. Mr. Humes. Do yoii approve, then, of the Eussian government making an appropriation for the purpose of trying to control the political action and political activities in other countries other than Eussia ? Miss Bryant. I do not know that it has, any more than the kind of work our Committee on Public Information does in foreign coun- tries. Mr. Humes. Do you not know that there was an appropriation of a large sum made by the soviet government for the purpose of undertaking to influence the political action in other countries than Eussia ? Miss Bryant. I know Mr. Humes. Do you not know that as a fact! Miss Bryant. I do not know that as a fact; but I will tell you what I do know as a fact. Mr. Humes. Do you deny that? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 547 Miss Bryant. I will explain it. I neither deny it nor affirm it. I will explain it. Mr. Humes. You explain it ? Miss Bryant. I will, because you can not deny nor affirm certain statements without confusing your testimony. Mr. Humes. You have not seen the act or decret that made an appropriation for that purpose? Have you not admitted here that there was money being sent over to this country for propaganda purposes ? Miss Bryant. Will you let me explain? Mr. Nuorteva told you that he got money, and he wanted to come here and explain why he got it, and you have not called him. Mr. Humes. Answer my question now. Miss Bryant. That is in answer to your question. He said he would explain the whole reason why he got the money. Mr. Humes. Let me ask you again, Miss Bryant : Do you approve of the Russian appropriation of money for the purpose of influencing and dominating political action in the United States as to its internal affairs ? Miss Bryant. Let me say Mr. Humes. Just answer the question. Miss Bryant. I have got to answer it in my own way. I can not answer it in any other way. I said that I am principally concerned about what happens in America. I am an American. I do not ap- prove of many things that happen in Japan or many things that happen in Eussia, but that is not my particular business. Mr. Humes. Now, you are concerned, then, about what happens in Eussia, in so far as it concerns the activities of the United States? Miss Bryant. Of course, I am an American, and I have a lot of faith in these United States. Mr. Humes. But you are not concerned about what happens in Eussia if it is intended to influence political action in the United States? Miss Bryant. Why, Mr. Humes, you must know that the monarch- ists are allowed to buy whole half sheets in all our papers to carry on their propaganda. I do not approve of that either, and I would not approve if the Soviets did ; but that goes unhindered. Mr. Humes. Do you mean to tell me and tell this committee that the soviet newspapers are permitting the publication of any material criticising or opposing the activities of the Bolshevik government ? Miss Bryant. Why, there are other political papers being pub- lished there. Mr. Humes. Do you not know that all of the newspapers in Eussia were taken over, under the constitution, by the soviet government ? Miss Bryant. Do you know how they were distributed? I can tell you that. Mr. Humes. Do you not know that they were taken over ? Miss Bryant. I know they were taken over, and for this reason: In our country one rich man can own perhaps 20 papers and can control their policies and can form public opinion, and they decided in Eussia that they did not want that state of affairs, so they changed it and made it a government force ; and it is according to how many members you have in your party, the various printing arrangements 548 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. that you are allowed. That is the way it is run. The social revolu- tionists have their own paper. Mr. Humes. Then you think the proper practice for Russia, and consequently it will be the proper practice in the United States is to take over and control all of the newspapers; is that true? Miss Brtakt. You see, Mr. Humes, I told you yesterday that I am very sympathetic toward socialism. I have never been a member of any party, but I am very sympathetic toward socialism, and the So- cialists have believed in government ownership for 100 years. Mr. Humes. You believe in the government ownership of news- papers ? Miss Betant. Of course, if I believe in government ownership I must believe in it for newspapers. Mr. Humes. Then you believe that the Government should con- trol all of the newspapers ; and you say the Bolshevik is the only po- litical power in power in Russia ; and therefore in this country if the Democratic Partj' was in power the Democratic Party would domi- nate all the newspapers, and if the Republican Party was in power the Republican Party would dominate all the newspapers of the country ? Miss Bryakt. You did not follow me. I just said that the ma- jority would have their own press, j^ou understand? If the Demo- cratic Partj' was a bigger party than the Republican Party it would have more papers, but if it was not a bigger party and if the Repub- lican Party split, as it did at the time of the Bull Moose, then it would not have. Senator Overman. Do you know David Leavitt Hough? Miss Brtant. I do not believe I do. Senator Overman. Nevsky, 1, Petrograd? Miss. Bryant. 1 Nevsky, Petrograd — ISTevsky Prospect? I know the street, but I do not think I know the man. Senator Overman. I have a letter from him this morning, and I just wanted to identify him if I could. Miss Bryant. I do not know him at all. Senator Overman. He says : I know and understand so well the Russian character that I know how hopeless it is that they will ever be able to " self-determine " until the oppor- tunity is made for them so to do by policing- the country from the outside under the direction of some such wise and generous man as Gen. Wood, who did so well in Cuba. Miss Bryant. Xo; I don't know him. I have never met him. Senator Overman. He says he spent a part of his time in Russia. Mr. Hujies. Miss Bryant, in order that we may get your viewpoint— because the viewpoint of a witness is always important in weighing the testimony — you feel that when' the United States interfered in Cuba in order to maintain a stable government, it was inter- fering with the free self-determination of the people of Cuba, and that it was a mistake, and that Cuba ought to havie been permitted to conduct a civil war and settle its own affairs without the assist- ance of anyone else ; is that true ? Miss Bryant. I can not answer you that, because I know very little about Cuba. I could not possibly answer it without speaking unm- telligently. I am glad to tell you, however, that I think that Mexico ought to settle its own affairs. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 549 Mr. HuBiEs. In other words, if the situation in Cuba Miss Betant. I do not know anything about Cuba. I will tell you that from the beginning. Mr. Humes. Wait until I ask the question. If the conditions in Cuba at the time of the American intervention were similar to the conditions in Mexico at this time, or the conditions in Russia, it was wrong for this country to assist in the organization and establish- ment of a stable government and the restoration of peace? Miss Brtant. I do not think it is synonymous at all, from what little I know of it ; but I am not going to discuss it, because I said I do not know anything about Cuba, and you would put me on record as saying something about a country which I do not know anything about. Mr. Humes. You say it is not analogous, and yet you say you df» not know anything about it ? Miss Beyant. I have not concealed my opinion about Russia, and you know that perfectly well, so why drag in Cuba ? Mr. Humes. I am trying to get your viewpoint. Miss Betant. I said I actually believed in self-determination. But a little bit of an island like Cuba can hardly be compared with a country like Russia, with 180,000,000 people. Mr. Humes. You believe that Russia should have self-determina- tion Miss Betant. I do. Mr. Humes (continuing). Without interference from this country, to establish their own government ; but it is proper for them, during the time they are trying to establish their own government, to under- take to interfere with the political affairs of other countries than their own, and to appropriate money for that purpose? Miss Betant, I do not know whether they are doing that or not. You can find out from Mr. Nuorteva. I do not know what they are doing with their funds, or if they are allowed to use funds. Senator Wolcott. May I interject a remark there? I thought I understood you to say yesterday that you knew they were interfering with the political affairs of another nation, to wit, Germany ? Miss Betant. Oh, yes ; in Germany. Senator Wolcott. Now, why do they not let Germany alone? Why do they not apply their doctrine there • Miss Brtant. You do not object to the fact that they brought about the German revolution and stopped the war long ahead of time? It was one of their ways of fighting. Senator Wolcott. It is absolutely not worth while for me to under- take to try to question you. I make the same complaint against you that you make against this committee. You will not let me finish what I am asking. Go ahead and make your statement. Miss Betant. That was one of their ways of fighting, by destroying Germany from the inside- They did it, and they did it very effec- tively ; and any military man will tell you that if it had not been for them the war would have lasted a great deal longer than ijt did. Senator Wolcott. I doubt if a military man would say that. I think a military man would say that the Germans were beaten on the west front, and that is what caused the war to end. 550 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss Beyaxt. But beating tlie Germans on the western front did not necessarily mean that the Kaiser had to abdicate. A military defeat does not always mean a change of government. Senator Wolcott. I think it does. Miss Bryant. Ebert always stood for the Kaiser, and so did Scheid- emann, so why should they be against him at any time ? Senator Wolcott. I do not think you are very well qualified to dis- cuss military problems, and neither am I. Miss Bryant. I agree with you, Senator Wolcott ; I am not ; and that is vfhj I do not think that bank clerks and Y. M. C. A. secretaries, or very old ladies, ought to come to you and tell you that we should have a thousand troops in Eussia, or 10,000 troops in Russia, because I do not think they know anything about military affairs. I would not presume to tell this committee how many troops ought to go to Russia to overwhelm the Bolsheviki. Senator Overman. You are opposed to any troops going there at all? Miss Bryant. Yes. I am opposed to it, surely, because the people in Russia do not want them there. I have two brothers in the Army, who volunteered and went to France to fight for democracy. They did not volunteer to fight the Russians; they volunteered to fighit the Germans. Senator Overjian. I want to say that this committee has to be in the Senate in five minutes, as the appropriation bill is coming up to- day, and so we will have to take a recess. I do not know whether to take a recess until half past 3 or not. Senator Wolcott has agreed to stay and conduct this examination and hear Miss Bryant's state- ment, and I hoiDe, Mr. Humes, you will let her make her statement and not ask too many questions; but Senator Wolcott will conduct the hearing. I am sorry I have to go, but we will just let Senator Wolcott stay here, as he has kindly agreed to do it. I will turn this letter from Mr. Hough over to you, Mr. Humes, as he wants to be heard. I am sorry I can not stay, but I have got to go. Senator Wolcott. All right. Miss Bryant, you may proceed. Miss Bryant. One point I want to make particularly clear is that in all the time I was in Russia I did not hear Russians denouncing America and saj'ing they hated America. On the other hand, they seemed to have a more friendly feeling toward us than they did toward any other nation. Before I left Russia I went to see Marie Spirodonova, who is the most politically powerful woman in Russia, and the last thing that she said was, " Try to make them understand in great America how hard we over here are striving to maintain our ideals." They always had the feeling that we alone would stand out against intervention, would stand out against any real bad conduct of other nations toward Russia ; that if Russia was hard pressed, as it was at that time, that we would not stand for going in there and trying to crush the people. Another point I wanted to bring out was that in all this reign of terror these men here have told you about, it is well to remember that not one American citizen was killed in Eussia during all of that turmoil. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 551 Mr. Humes. May I ask you right there, has not this woman you spoke of been since imprisoned by the Bolsheviki ? Miss Bryant. No, sir. If you will ask Gregory Yarros about that — ^he is the Associated Press man — ^lie can tell you the whole story. She had a fight with the Bolsheviki. She is a very belligerent person. She was one of the people who planned the death of Mir- bach. She is a terrorist, and she did that; and the Soviets at the time, while they were organizing their army and wanted to push the Germans back, still felt that terror was a very bad thing for any country, because it really works against you, as you know, and stirs up all the radicals, and everybody gets blamed for it ; and they did not' want the Germans in Moscow as a consequence, and they thought it was not a good plan; but she really did help plan that assassination, and yet she is still working with the Soviets. Mr. Humes. Just let me catch that. She planned the death of Mirbach ? Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Therefore, she was fighting the Germans ? Miss Bryant. Oh, yes. Mr. Humes. Yet she was put in jail because of her interference with the Soviets in fighting the Germans ? Miss Bryant. I did not say she was put in jail ; but you see what they were trying to do was to prevent terror there, so that they could go on with the regular warfare and put them out. For myself, I do not blame Spirodonova for helping to plan the death of Mirbach. I am not denouncing her for that. I like her better than any other woman I know. Mr. Humes. Go on with your statement. Miss Bryant. Well, the point that I was going to make was that not one American was killed in Russia. I mean by that civilians, people who were not carrying on actual warfare. Senator Wolcott. Men were thrown in jail, however. Miss Bryant. I know, but don't you understand that if they had gotten in the way of the army they should have been put in jail? Americans were put in jail in France and other countries, correspond- ents and others, at the beginning of the war. Senator Wolcott. Were they not put in jail by the civil authori- ties, as distinguished from the military authorities ? Miss Bryant. "When a country is under military control, and in actual civil warfare, the military authorities, of course, are the only authorities. Senator Wolcott. The American consul was put in jail, and is still in jail. Miss Bryant. Yes, because they accused him of starting a counter- revolution, and I believe there is some good evidence of that. One of the witnesses said that an American negro was one of the commissars, and that showed his complete ignorance of Russian af- fairs. There was one American negro in Petrograd, and this Ameri- can negro was a professional gambler. Senator Wolcott. Was that the man that they called Prof. Gordon ? Miss Bryant. I think that is the man they called Prof. Gordon, I don't know. This negro was arrested by the provisional govern- ment and put in jail because they did not want him around there; 552 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. and after the Soviets came into power thej* were always having trou- ble with this negro, but he would not go home, and stayed around there and was always gambling, and they arrested him and took him up to the American consulate and asked him to send him home. He certainly did not get any place in the government. Senator Wolcott. That was up until January, when you left? Miss Bryant. Why should they ? Senator Wolcott. That is the point, and I made that same inquiry, why should they ? Miss Bryant. I want to read something written by a man from the French military mission in Moscow, on July 14, 1918 — a man by the name of Sadou'l. He says, "We will not win the war by killing the Russian revolution." This was at the time we began intervention. Senator Wolcott. What is his nationality ? Miss Bryant. French. Senator Wolcott. He is a Frenchman ? Miss Bryant. Yes : a member of the military mission there. Senator Wolcott. You personally know him ? Miss Bryant. No ; but I knew he was there, and I have seen him. He continues : By committing such a crime we shall not accomplish the task toward civiliza- tion which the allies have set before them and we shall not realize a democratic and just peace, the principles of which have been enunciated by our socialist party and so eloquently developed by Wilsou. The ministers of the entente, misinformed through the blindness of their intelligence service, were in a position to easily delude the masses of working- men and direct them against the power of the Soviets. But the day will come when the allies will be swept aside and the truth proclaimed. What bitter reproaches will then be addressed to the guilty governments for not having known better or not having wanted to know better? What resentment, what hatred will accumulate, and what terrible and unnecessary fights are in store for the future ! But the crime will be irrepar- able ! New ruins will not make old ruins look less ugly. Mr. Humes. When was that statement made ? Miss Bryant. July 14, 1918. Mr. Htjmes. Do you know where this man is now ? Miss Bryant. I do not know where he is now. He was with the French military mission. Mr. Humes. You do not know what his attitude is now, do you? Miss Bryant. I suppose it is the same as it was. Mr. Humes. You suppose that? Senator Wolcott. The substance of what he said was that he would not advise intervention. Miss Bryant. He thought it would be almost irreparable for the allies to start out with such high ideals and then to smash them. ISenator Wolcott. His statement throws no light on the conditions in Russia. Miss Bryant. I will tell you of another man who did throw light on conditions in Russia, and he knew Russia very well. Senator Wolcott. His statement is simply the announcement of his opinion that intervention would be unwise, and he gives the rea- sons for having that opinion. Miss Bryant. Yes. Well, he is a military man, and I should think he would have some idea about it. And then, you see, Arthur Ransome was another man who was brought up here in the testunony, BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 553 and I believe one witness said he was " at large in the United States." Of course, I think that is a rather peculiar way to speak about a man like Ransome. Senator Wolcott. I do not recall that. Miss Bryant. That was printed in one of the papers. I was not here at the testimony. Senator Wolcott. I do not recall it. Mr. Humes. Do you not think that is a better sort of humor than the sort which you say is so frequent in Russian and French papers ? Miss Bryant. As I say, I am not a censor of European morals at all. Mr. Humes. Proceed with your statement. Miss Betant. Arthur Ransome was a correspondent of the London Daily News and also of the New York Times; and I want to say, Mr. Humes, that the New York Times did to Arthur Ransome very much the same thing as the Public Ledger did to me. Arthur Ransome was their correspondent, but as soon as Arthur Ransome came out and gave his opinion about what would happen in case of intervention they no longer wrote of him as their regular correspondent, whose articles they had printed from daily cables. They called him the " mouthpiece of the Bolsheviki." And that is one of the things that I want to bring out here, that newspaper reporters who try to honestly tell what is happening in Russia are intimidated always when they make their statements, and they are intimidated to the point where they not only lose their jobs, but they lose their reputations, and they lose their chance to make a living. That is why most of them can not afford to tell the truth. They remain absolutely silent, or else they tell how many people fall dead in the streets and how many horses they see fall dead in the streets. Mr. Humes. Which particular witness are you applying that to ? Miss Bryant. I am referring now particularly to Mr. Herman Bernstein. Senator Wolcott. Miss Bryant, I want to read you a clipping from the Philadelphia Ledger. Miss Bryant. They read that here to me to-day, I think. Senator Wolcott. This one ? Miss Bryant. The one about myself ? Senator Wolcott. Yes. Miss Bryant. They read that to me when I first came in, and there was a long discussion about it. That is why I mentioned it just now again. Senator Wolcott. I was not present. Mr. Humes. Proceed with your statement. Miss Bryant. The head of the Y. M. C. A. printed in the February 8, 1919, Survey an article telling about how easy it was to cooperate with the Soviets. Mr. Humes. What is his name ? "Miss Bryant. His name is Davis. Senator Wolcott. What is the date of that ? Miss Bryant. February 8, 1919. Senator Wolcott. What is the title of it? Miss Bryant^ " Cooperating with the Commissars." Senator Wolcott. By whom? 554 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss Befaxt. Jerome Davis, the head of the Y. M. C. A. for two years in Russia. I understood he was the chief secretary and that he had charge. We understood that in Petrograd. Mr. Humes. He had charge of a particular district, did he not? Miss Bryant. I am not sure about that, but we always understood he was at the head of the Y. M. C. A. in Russia. He says : National Soviet leaders at almost every interview emphasized tfielr desire for the continuance of our work, their wish that America would send more men and other experts to help in all phases of educational, economic, and relief work. Time after time they spoke of how much they wished an American railroad commission would come to Russia. My personal experience, after hav- ing had charge of the relationships with the Bolshevik government during almost the entire period that the Y. M. C. A. was in Soviet territory. Justifies me in stating that we always received every cooperation from the national Soviet government. A * * * I" * * The great majority of those who have worlved in Soviet Russia under the organization mentioned above will agree with me that it is possible to help the Russian people under the Bolshevik government. Senator WoI/COTT. Did we not send a railroad commission to Eus- sia Miss Brtant. We did ; but you probably know what happened to it. Senator Wolcott. We sent one, did we not ? Miss Betant. Yes ; but it is not working with the people at the present time. Senator Wolcott. Mr. Davis says in there that the Russian people wished we would send a railroad commission. Miss Beta XT. He means the Soviets, of course. Senator Wolcott. The Russian people wish we would send one there to help the Soviets ? Miss Beyant. That was his impression. Senator Wolcott. You do not think we ought to do that, do you ? Miss Beyant. Well, I think we ought to decide that for ourselves. I think a great deal of our unemployment in America is due to the fact that we do not have an open avenue into Russia now, because they need all sorts of supplies, and I think it would be helpful for both countries if we really had more amicable relations. Senator Wolcott. I thought your idea was that the Russian people did not want our business men around. Why should we send anything over there to help them in any way. Miss Beyant. For one reason ; it is good business ; if for no other reason. Every country wants to trade with Russia. You will agree with me on that. Senator Wolcott. Yes ; but this proposition is to send a railroad commission over there to work with the Soviets. Do you favor our going over there and helping the Soviets ? Miss Betant. I think you are the people who ought to decide that. I do not know anything about it. Mr. Humes. I thought Russia ought to decide that. I thought they ought to determine these things themselves. Your position now is that the United States Government ought to settle the question as to whether they will send anything over there to help the soviet gov- ernment, and yet you question as to whether any intervention shall be undertaken against the Soviets ; that that is a matter for Russia to settle. How do you reconcile those two positions ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 555 Miss Bexant. Mr. Humes, I am perfectly consistent. I think we ought to settle what action we should take, and I said the Russians ought to settle their own affairs — ^their own actions. If we decide now whether we shall send a commission or shall not send a commission, that is our business. That is what I said from the beginning. Mr. Humes. Is not that interfering with their self-determination ? Do YOU not think that they ought to determine whether we shall send anyone over there to help or not? Miss Brtant. If they ask us for it, it is for us to decide whether we will do it. Of course, we are not going to send a commission in there just willy nilly, without their asking for any of these things or with- out it being to our advantage to comply. Mr. Humes. You quoted Jerome Davis. I want to read you two sentences from an official report of Jerome Davis to the American Consul General. You have quoted him as an authority. [Reading ;] The legitimate criticism of Government acts was stifled by the suppression of all except Bolsheviki papers, and the opposite parties were either under arrest or In hiding. At the same time the Government gave up all hope of printing to represent all classes and parties of workers and peasants, but there- after busied itself in trying to keep the power. Miss Bryant. Well, that was during the first days, was it not, in the transitory period? Everybody knows that when a people first take over the government, and a city is under martial law, there is not much free press at that particular time. Mr. Humes. This was after the assassination of Mirbach. Miss Bryant. That was also in a critical hour. Mr. Humes. This was subsequent to that ? Miss Bryant. I would like to read you an explanation of Lenine's attitude toward the press. He wrote this : In the serious, decisive hour of the revolution and the days immediately following, the provisional revolutionary committee was compelled to adopt a whole series of measures against the counter-revolutionary press of all shades. At once cries ai-ose from all sides that the new socialistic authority was violating the essential principles of its program. The workers' and soldiers' government draws attention to the fact that In our country behind such a shield of liberalism is hidden an attempt to poison the minds and bring con- fusion into the consciousness of the masses. It was impossible to leave such a weapon as willful misrepresentation In the hands of the enemy, for it is not less dangerous than bombs and machine guns. That is why temporary and extraordinary measures have been adopted for cutting ofe the stream of calumny in which the yellow press would be glad to drown the young victory of the people. As soon as the order will be consolidated, all administrative measures against the press will l)e suspended. Full liberty will be given within the broadest and most progressive measures in this respect; even in critical mo- ments the restriction of the press is admissible only within the bounds of necessity. Mr. HuJiES. Is not that policy being invoked more strongly to-day than it was at the time that statement was made ? Miss Bryant. I do not think so. Mr. Humes. Do you know? Miss Bryant. You understand — I have not been there, but they are still publishing other papers. Mr. Humes. Will you name some other papers that are being published in Russia than Bolshevik papers or papers that are con- trolled by the government? 556 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss Bryaxt. If yon want to bring me the files, I do not know the names, but I can get the papers. Mr. Humes. I will be glad to have you furnish me with Russian papers printed in Eussia that are opposing the Bolshevik govern- ment. You can give me those papers later. Miss Bryant. I will be glad to do so. Mr. Nuorteva will giyg them to you first hand. There is also another thing that I want to bring out, and that is about terror. The white terror in Finland was perhaps the worst terror of the whole war in any country. You know that the White Guard Finns attempted to establish a German king on the throne and the White Guards fought in the German trenches from the beginning of the war. I have some pictures which I want to give you showing the White Guards, and these [indicating] are Red Guards that they shot by machine gun fire. Mr. Humes. Did you take those pictures? Miss Bryant. They were taken just after I had gone through Finland. These were brought over to Mr. Nuorteva by a man who escaped. These are people shot down by machine guns. Mr. Humes. That was the terror in Finland ? Miss Bryant. Yes, as I said, the terror was not always on one side. I just want to prove a point. This is white terror. Mr. Humes. How do you tell whether these are White Guards or Bed Guards? Miss Bryant. By the white arm band, and because the only ones that were killed by machine guns were the Bed Guards. Mr. Humes. Did not the Bolshevik guards use machine guns? Miss Bryant. They did not take bunches of people out in fifties and shoot them with machine gun fire deliberately. Mr. Humes. They did not ? Senator Wolcott. What you mean is that they did not do it while you were there. Miss Bryant. They would not do it because they are not organized against the people. They don't have to shoot great masses. Senator Wolcott. You think they would not do it, because what they have on paper is their practice? Miss Bryant. They are championing the poorer classes of people, and they do not get great masses of people and shoot them generally. Senator Wolcott. You mean that they would not do that if they had been carrying on their principles, but you do not know whether that is so. Miss Bryant. We do not know that they have done that. Senator Wolcott. Witnesses have been here and testified. Miss Bryant. But they did not see them. Senator Wolcott. They saw them led out by the firing squads. Miss Bryant. They did not see them. Senator Wolcoit. They saw them led out, but could not see them shot. Miss Bryant. I did not see any either, but I am discredited when I say that. Senator Wolcott. I am pointing out the unreliability of your information. ^Vhen a man sees the firing squad take out prisoners BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 557 and hears shots, he is justified, I think, in his opinion that they have been shot. Miss Beyant. I tell you that I know very well that this man, Jacob Peters, who was supposed to be the head executioner of the Soviet, was not that sort of man. Peters told me at various times that the only people Avhom he believed in killing were traitors in his own ranks, people who were grafters and who tried to steal every- thing, people in a time like that who did not stick to the high moral principle of revolutionary discipline. Those are the people in many cases who were executed by the soviet, people in their own ranks. Senator Wolcott. That is what Peters said ? Miss Bryant. That was his whole principle of belief, and I believe that is what he would do. Senator Wolcott. Let me ask you. a question: Is it your idea, because a man says that he believes so-and-so, that he never acts con- trary to that ? Miss Bryant. But you see my idea was that — I knew this man Peters, and he is an idealist, a very esthetic young man, not the kind of man who is a real butcher. And because I knew this man and knew what he did or tried to do in Russia, I do not believe that he would permit any butchering. Mr. Humes. You knew that Peters was a member of a big anarchist organization in White Chapel, London, did you not, before he went back to Russia ? Miss Bryant. I can not imagine him being an anarchist, because he is a socialist. It is impossible to be both. Mr. Humes. You deny that he is a member, of the anarchist group in London? Miss Bryant. I can not deny it. I did not know him in London. Mr. Humes. Do you not know that the testimony that has been taken by the committee has established that he was in London ? You said yesterday he was in London ? Miss Bryant. Oh, yes ; he was in London. I know that. Mr. Humes. Do you not know that the testimony here shows that he was a member of an anarchistic group ? Miss Bryant. Wasn't it a socialist club ? . Mr. Humes. That barricaded themselves in White Chapel after the commission of some crimes ? Miss Bryant. I never understood that Peters ever took any part in political activities in London. I knew he was a clerk in a commission house. Mr. Humes. The reason he did not take a part in political affairs in the sense that we generally use " political affairs " is that anarchists are opposed to political activity or participation in politics, and they believe simply m the use of force in the overthrow of the govern- ment. That is the sense in which you say that he took no part \ Miss Bryant. I do not think that is the anarchists' doctrine. 1 am not particularly interested in their doctrine, but their doctrine is that all governments are founded by force — which, of course, is a fact— and therefore they are against all government; but I do not believe they believe in force at all. I do not know that many of them are terrorists. 558 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. Do you not think that the anarchists and the I. AV. W are both opposed to participation in political affairs ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; because they do not believe in governments. Mr. Humes. These pictures are on post cards ? Miss Bryant. They were reprinted. Mr. Humes. They were made for propaganda purposes? Miss Bryant. Oh, no ; they were not ; not that I ever knew of. Mr. Humes. Are they on post cards ? Miss Bryant. They were reprinted. They only had one copy, so I could not have brought it up to show you unless it was reprinted. You would not call that propaganda. Mr. HuaiEs. They are simply in the state that they are sold in public places. Miss Bryant. Are they sold in public places? Mr. Humes. Is not that the form in which they are put on sale? Miss Bryant. Yes; but that is one of the easiest ways to print photographs. Mr. Humes. In other words, it is not a private picture. Miss Bryant. That has nothing to do with it, because it is printed on a post card. That is not logical. Mr. Humes. , You have seen very many German propaganda pic- tures in just that same form, have you not? Was it not the practice of the Germans to put out pictures of that kind ? Miss Bryant. I do not know. You mean the post cards? Mr. Humes. Yes. Miss Bryant. I do not know what that has to do with it. When you have a camera of this size you usually print them on these cards, because they are very handy. It has nothing to do with the picture at all. Mr. Humes. Proceed with your statement, Miss Bryant. Miss Bryant. Well, you mean that I should continue by myself '. Mr. Humes. Go right on. Miss Bryant. I do not care to say any more, except that I hope other witnesses will be called who have been mentioned by me in this testimony. Mr. Humes. Then, there are just two or thrfee questions that I want to ask. In the first place, you have said something about equal suf: frage. Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Was not equal suffrage granted by Kerensky in his regime? Miss Bryant. Kerensky did not grant it; it was granted by the revolution. Mr. Humes. When I say Kerensky, I am only distinguishing be- tween the ending of the old regime and the Bolshevik regime. Miss Bryant. It was granted before the time of the Kerensky government, during the time of Miliukov. Mr. HuBtES. It was immediately after the March revolution? Miss Bryant. No, no; I will explain that. At the time of the first revolution women were enfranchised. The Kussians could not conceive that they did not have equal suffrage. The subject was not discussed, even. Mr. Humes. It was not a new thing after the Bolsheviki came into power ? BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. 559 Miss Bryant. No; but it continued after they came into power. Mr. Htjmes. You said something about Madame Kollontay. Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Had she not, since you were there, broken with the soviet republic, the soviet government ? Miss Bryant. Why, she went to Stockholm. There had been a very short misunderstanding, as usually occurs between politicians ; but she went back into the soviet government afterwards. Senator Wolcott. Why do you think she went to Stockholm ? Miss Bryant. She went there, I suppose, because they were always trying to carry on the work there. Senator Wolcott. You do not think she went because she was afraid she would be put in jail? Miss Bryant. No. Mr. Humes. She was married? Miss Bryant. She was, and that will explain — that was one of the reasons for her quarrel with the soviet leaders. Dybenko, who was at one time the head of the navy, took back into service some old Kussian officers, because they had promised him that they would be faithful to the revolutionary government, and they were fighting at that time against the Germans. Well, these same old officers promptly turned over the port of Narva to the Germans without any resistance. Dybenko, as head of the navy, was held responsible for it, because he had trusted these old-regime men, and for a short time they put him in jail. That is an example of how impossible it is to trust the old officers. Mr. Humes. The fact is that she and her husband both fled ? Miss Bryant. She did not flee. Mr. Humes. They left Russia? Miss Bryant. They came back again. They are still in the soviet. Mr. Humes. When did they come back? Miss Bryant. They did not stay in Stockholm very long. Mr. Humes. About when; while you were there or since that time? Miss Bryant. Afterwards. Mr. Humes. How long afterwards; in the summer or just this last fall? Miss Bryant. They left about March, 1918, and they went back probably in March. I do not know, some time around there. I do not think they stayed away very long. Mr. Humes. What is the source of your information about their return ? Miss Bryant. Well, I heard some of it from various sources. Mr. Humes. And your information that you have heard in that country Miss Bryant. I heard it from some one who came from Stockholm and Imew about it — saw them there. Mr. Humes. You said something about the Philadelphia Public Ledger. Miss Bryant. Yes. Mr. Humes. Who was the man representing the Public Ledger that asked you to change your credentials so as to make it appear that you represented it ? 560 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss Bryant. You see, Mr. Spurgeon has charge of the Public Ledger, he is the editor in chief, and Mr. Watlnns has charge of the syndicate ; and when I went up there and they told me to write these articles for them I said, " Well, how about these passes ? They have on them ' The Bell Newspaper Syndicate,' and what will I do about it?" Mr. Watkins said, "You' can fix that up. Put the Public Ledger in." Mr. HtJMES. What is Mr. Watkins's position with the Public Ledger ? Miss Betant. He is head of the syndicate. Mr. Humes. What syndicate ? Miss Bryant. The Ledger syndicate. Mr. Htjmes, And Mr. Watkins was the man that asked you to change your credentials ? Miss Bryant. I do not remember the exact conversation. It was not extraordinary. Mr. Humes. I understand that you did not represent yourself in Russia as representing the Public Ledger at all. Miss Bryant. No ; as a representative of the Bell Syndicate. I went on the Metropolitan credentials almost all the time. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that Dr. Harold Williams represented the New York Times rather than Mr. Kansome? Miss Bryant. He did not write any more dispatches than Eansome did. They both appeared daily in the New York Times. Mr. Humes. Were they both representatives? Miss Bryant. Yes ; they were certainly considered such. Senator Wolcott. Just a minute. You have said, have you, all that you want to say ? Miss Bryant. Yes ; except, as I said, I want to urge that the people who were at the head of organizations like the American Military Mis- sion, the American Red Cross, and the Y. M. C. A., and the Friends (Quakers), and various other official organizations, should be called instead of underlings, because I have had to make in my testimony a statement as to what I thought they would say, and I had to give their opinion, and I wish they would be called to verify these state- ments. Senator Wolcott. You have not had to do that. You have chosen to do that. I am particularly interested to know whether there are any facts about Russia that you want to state in addition to what you have given. Miss Bryant. No ; just simply to say that, as I stated before, my whole idea is that I believe in self-determination, and I do not think the Russians are such beasts and fanatics as many of the witnesses have tried to make out. Mr. Humes. Just another question. What witness do you know has attempted to say that the Russian people are beasts? Has any witness referred to the Russian people in any but the most kindly way? Miss Bryant. When they say that people are murdered by thou- sands, and that people are starved, and all those conditions exist, I would consider it just exactly the same thing. Senator Wolcott. Certainly they were killed to an extent. Miss Bezant. Of course, they were in our Civil War and in all civil wars. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 561 Senator Wolcott. I notice by the morning's paper the official an- nouncement by the Commissioner of the Interior Litovzky, who says that not more than 13,700 were shot by the orders of the extraordi- nary commission up to the 1st of last January, and the article also states that there were no figures for those that were killed Miss Bryant. I think it would be absolutely impossible to find cor- rect figures like that. Senator Wolcott. That there was no record made of the numbers shot in small towns and villages, as the local authorities have avoided all bureaucratic methods and often acted on simple intuition. Miss Bryant. You see, they do that in the south when they lynch people. Senator Wolcott. So the Soviets are to be compared to the people in the south that lynch ? Miss Bryant. No. Senator Wolcott. Why did you make that statement unless you wanted to infer that comparison ? Miss Bryant. I only wanted to infer that in all countries events occur which other countries do not aprove of, and that we have been prejudiced against the Russians. We think that everything they do is bad and immoral, and I have wanted to protest. Senator Wolcott. I do not think that impression has been created here. Miss Bryant. I hope it has not, but it seems to me that it had, when I was listening. (Thereupon, at 12.30 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee took a recess until 3.30 o'clock p. m.) AFTER RECESS. The subcommittee met at 3.30 o'clock p. m., pursuant to the taking of the recess. Senator Wolcott. The meeting will come to order. Senator Over- man is detained in the Senate for a short time and has asked me to start the hearing. I look for him to come in at almost any moment. Major, you have a witness? Mr. Humes. Mr. Reed. TESTIMONY OF MR. JOHN REED. Senator Wolcott. Hold up your right hand. Mr. Reed. I prefer to affirm. Senator Wolcott. Have you any scruples against taking an oath 'i Mr. Reed. Yes. Senator Wolcott. You are not a Quaker, are you, Mr. Reed? Mr. Reed. No. Senator Wolcott. What is the nature of your scruples agamst taking an oath ? Mr. Reed. I just do not care to take an oath. I have not taken an oath for a year. I prefer to affirm. Senator Wolcott. Do you state that you have conscientious scru- ples against taking an oath ? Mr. Reed. Yes, sir. 85723—19 36 562 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. Senator Wolcott. Hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly affirm that the evidence that you shall give shall be the truth, the A\hoIe truth, and nothing but the truth, and so you do affirm^ Mr. Reed. I do solemnly affirm. Mr. Humes. Mr. Reed, where do you reside? Mr. Reed. 1 Patchin Place, New York. Mr. HuJiEs. Ho^Y long have you resided in New York, approxi- mately ? Mr. Reed. Since 1911. Mr. Humes. Prior to that you ^Yere a resident of Oregon, I believe? Mr. Reed. Yes ; a resident of Oregon. I have not been there for a long time, but I was a resident there. Mr. Humes. You were born in Oregon, were you not ? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. But you lived in Oregon, or that was really your home until the time you came to New York, was it not ? Mr. Reed. Y es ; that is to say, I was in Boston for four years, and around Xew York, in school, for two years, and two years abroad. Mr. Humes. But you have been in Xew York since 1911 ? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. Now, Mr. Reed, when did you first go to Russia; after the outbreak of the European war? Mr. Reed. I went in 1915 ; sailed in March for Italy and Greece; went up to Serbia and Roumania, I suppose it was in April or May, 1915. Mr. Humes. You were in this country at the time of the outbreak of the Avar, were you ? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. When did 3'ou first go to Europe after the outbreak of the war? Mr. Reed. I went to Europe immediately after the outbreak of the war. I was out on the coast the day the war broke out and sailed immediately. I got to Paris just at the Battle of the Marne. Mr. Humes. How long did you stay in France at that time? Mr. Reed. I stayed there three or four months. Mr. Humes. Where did you go from there? Mr. Reed. I went to Germany. Mr. Humes. How long were you in Germany? Mr. Reed. About a month and a half or two months. Mr. Humes. Were you on the firing line during that time? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. In what capacity were you there? Mr. Reed. As a reporter for the Metropolitan Magazine. Mr. Humes. And where did you go from Germany ? Mr. Reed. I went from Germany to England. I bought a ticket to London on the JJnter den Linden^ went to England, and went back to France. Mr. Humes. How long did you stay in France? Mr. Reed. A few days. Then I went back to England and sailed for home. Mr. Humes. And then when did you make your second trip to Europe ? Mr. Reed. Well, I got home about February and I started again about a month or so later. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 563 Mr. Humes. And what countries did you visit on that occasion? Mr. Keed. I visited Italy, Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Roumania, Turkey, and Eussia. Mr. Humes. You were not in Germany on that trip ? Mr. Eeed. No. Mr. Humes. Nor France? Mr. Reed. No. Mr. Humes. About when did you land in Russia? Mr. Eeed. Well, I was saying — I can not remember exactly. I think it was about the end of April or May. Mr. Humes. 1915 or 1916? Mr. Reed. 1915. Mr. Humes. 1915?. Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. How long did you stay in Eussia? Mr. Reed. Well, I stayed there about two months. Mr. Humes. Then you came back to this country? Mr. Reed. Then I came back through Eoumania, Serbia, and Bul- garia, and sailed to this country. Mr. Humes. When did you get to this country, the fall of 1915 ? Mr. Eeed. The fall of 1915. Mr. Humes. When did you next go to Europe? Mr. Eeed. I nest went to Europe — sailed August IT, 1917, 1 believe. Mr. Humes. August 17, 1917? That was the trip on which you took your wife ? Mr. Eeed. Yes. Mr. Humes. You secured passports for that trip, I suppose ? Mr. Eeed. Yes. Mr. Humes. Were there atiy assurances given to the State Depart- ment incidentally to the issuing of these passports ? Mr. Eeed. Yes ; there were. I do not exactly remember the phras- ing of it, but I remember that I was asked to give it so that I would not represent the Socialist Party at the Stockholm conference. How- ever, the thing was so much on my mind that after I did get to Petro- grad, I was asked to make a lot of speeches at different places around — a lot of political speeches — so I went and asked Consul Treadwell what I should do about it, and he said he would not do it if he were I, and so I did not do it. I refused to participate in any political conferences or conventions. Senator Wolcott. Were these assurances under oath? Mr. Eeed. Yes, sir ; I think they were. Senator Wolcott. Do you not know ? Mr. Eeed. I do not remember. I did not have so many conscien- tious scruples then as I do now. I think that I took oath at that time. Senator Wolcott. Have you any objection to stating the nature of your scruples against taking an oath? Mr. Eeed. I do not like to swear because I think it is undignified to have to commit yourself. I trust my own word, and I expect other people to trust it, and I do not intend to tell lies. Senator Wolcott. Then your desire not to be sworn is rather more from a sense of pride than from conscientious scruples. Mr. Eeed. Well, I have conscientious scruples against swearing._ I do not see why I should swear on any particular book, or anything 564 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGASTDA. of that kind. The whole tiling is mixed up with religious dogma, which I do not approve of. Senator Wolcott. We do not swear witnesses on any particular book. Mr. Reed. That is what is in my mind. That is all there is to it Senator Wolcott. Suppose you put yourself in the same class with the other witnesses. Mr. Eeed. Yes. Senator Wolcott. If you will hold up your right hand. then. I will swear you. (The witness was sworn by Senator Wolcott.) Mr. Humes. Did you, or did you not. engage in any political activities when you were in Russia? Mr. Eeed. Yes, sir. Mr. Humes. You were engaged in political activities? Mr. Reed. Yes ; I suppose you might call them political activities. Mr. HuJiES. Then you did disregard on that occasion the oath that you took to secure your passports in doing the thing that you had promised under oath not to do ? Mr. Reed. No; I do not concede that at all, because I promised for a vei-y definite purpose ; and, as I say, I always asked advice. I was thinking of it entirely in a political gathering and not as doing any political work for the Russian soviet government against Germany. And even in that work, I asked advice about that. Possibly I should not have asked advice. I did not consider it part of my oath, any more than when I was invited to go back to Petrograd as a repre- sentative of the American Government, or something of that sort. I consider that political work, but it was not a violation of my oath. Mr. Humes. You did make speeches over there, did you not? Mr. Eeed. I made a few speeches, but not in a political sense. I did not make them as a politician and I did not make them as a repre- . sentative of anybody or any political organization. Mr. Humes. You made a speech before the third congress Mr. Reed. Of Soviets. Mr. Humes (continuing). Of the council of soldiers and workers' deputies, did you not? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. You and Mr. Williams and Mr. Eeinstein all spoke on that occasion? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. What other political activities did you engage in over there ? Mr. Reed. I was a member of the bureau of international revolu- tionary propaganda attached to the commissar for foreign affairs. Mr. Humes. That is the organization of which Mr. Eeinstein was the head? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. For how long a period of time were you connected with that? Mr. Reed. About two months. . , Mr. Humes. Can you give us a more definite account of the penod covered by those two months ? Mr. Reed. I left Petrograd— February 7. January 7, December 7 — perhaps about December 1. I am not quite sure. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 565 Mr. Humes. You commenced that work about December 1 ? Mr. Keed. I think so ; yes. Mr. HiTMES. When did you leave Russia? Mr. Reed. February 7. Mr. Humes. That was February 7, 1918, that you left? Mr. Reed. Yes. I am pretty positive of the date. Mr. Humes. It is my understanding — I may be wrong about it — • that you left there about the 20th of January. Possibly that would be on the Russian calendar. Mr. Reed. That is my recollection of it. I am not quite sure. I think I was trying to make a boat that sailed February 12 on our calendar. Of course, the two calendars are more or less mixed up, but that is my impression. I am basing it on my wife's testimony. She left on the 20th of January and I left 10 or 12 days later. Mr. Humes. You did not leave together, then ? Mr. Reed. No, sir. Mr. Humes. My understanding was that you left together. Mr. Reed. No, sir. Mr. Humes. She was not in Stockholm when you got there ? Mr. Reed. No. Mr. Humes. She had left before you got there ? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. What was the official status of this propaganda bu- reau with which you were coimected? Mr. Reed. The official status? I do not know exactly how to an- swer that question. It was one of the departments of the commis- sariat of foreign affairs. Mr. Humes. What was the business of that organization, to pub- lish newspapers or literature, or Mr. Reed. We collaborated in the publication of newspapers, and my particular job was — that is, as far as the English language was concerned, it was — to see that the decrees and the actions of the soviet government were translated into English. The translation was not my job, but as far as English was concerned. I also collaborated in the gathering of material and data and distributing of papers to go into the German trenches. Mr. Humes. I call your attention to decree No. 8, dated December 23, 1917, and ask you if that is one of the decrees that you translated into English [handing paper to the witness] ? Mr. Reed (after examining paper). No; I did not translate that into English. Mr. Humes. You saw it translated into English? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. That is one of the decrees that was issued during the time that you were working there? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. This is the decree appropriating 2,000,000 rubles for the needs of the revolutionary international movement and for the purpose of carrying on the work of the soviet governments in other countries than Russia. That is correct, is it not ? Mr. Reed. I think so ; yes ; if I remember. That, however, had nothing to do -v^ith our department. 566 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. You said you were translating these decrees, and this is one of the decrees, and I thought that was one of those you trans- lated. Mr. Reed. No ; I did not translate that decree. Mr. Humes. How many newspapers were you publishing or col- laborating in at that time? Mr. Reed. I was a very small cog in the machine. I merely got ma- terial and handed it over to these various groups. I have an article here that tells about it, the press bureau which Radek was the head of and which was publishing those papers. The press bureau edited the papers. They published one paper in German, which changed its name from Die Fackel to Der Volkfriede, and we got out half a million distribution a day of that, and then we got out half a million of a Hungarian paper, and a quarter of a million of a Bohemian paper, and a quarter of a million of a Roumanian paper, and a quarter mil- lion of a Turkish paper ; and then we translated all the decrees, etc. Mr. Humes. Is that a copy of one of the papers that you were publishing [handing paper to witness] ? Mr. Reed. Yes. I was not publishing it. Mr. Humes. Well, I do not want to put words in your mouth. I mean, you were collaborating in the publication of it ? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. Did you furnish the material in connection with the article on the front page of that paper ? Mr. Reed. On Wilson's speech? Mr. Humes. Yes ; with reference to Wilson's speech. Mr. Reed. No ; that was a mighty curious thing. You see, Robins used to go to the soviet government, and ask the soviet government to distribute American propaganda, which they did. They distributed the Wilson speech. They put their own billposting service at his disposal and posted it. He wanted to get his stuff into the German trenches otherwise than by the way he was carrying it, which was sending it down free by the soviet, and also having it distributed by some soldiers' committees, so that he asked me to get Wilson's fourteen points into this paper if I could. Senator Wolcott. Who asked you ? Mr. Reed. Robins. Senator Wolcott. Oh, yes. Mr. Reed. So as to get it down. As a matter of fact, I took it to the Smolny and had it telegraphed to Trotzky, who was at Brest at that time, and Trotzky gave it publicity at Brest. But I tried to get it into this paper. Radek was away, and there was nobody in charge except a subeditor, and he evidently made this thing out of it and put it in. I was very much annoyed when it came out just this way. Mr. Humes. Then that was published in the paper without your knowledge or consent ? Mr. Reed. Yes ; I had nothing to say, anyway, about it. Mr. Humes. And yet that is one of the papers that you were col- laborating on? Mr. Reed. Yes. I can show you two, here, that have fierce attacks on German militarism, and tell the German people to revolt, and so forth and so on. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 567 Mr. Humes. When you got into Eussia, it was along, probably, two months before the Bolshevik revolution, was it not ? Mr. Eeed. Yes, just about; a little more. Mr. Humes. What was the condition of affairs in Russia ? Mr. Eeed. At that time ? Mr. Humes. Wlien you got there. Mr. Eeed. It was just after the Korniloff affair. Korniloff had raised an army and marched on Petrograd and tried to seize the military dictatorship, and the Kerensky government had split. Half the Kerensky cabinet were immediately revealed as partisans of Korniloff. Kerensky issued a decree declaring Korniloff an outlaw, and armed the citizens to repel him. The moment that Kerensky armed the citizens, something happened that he did not expect, be- cause the democratic revolutionary organizations arose and took full control. After about five daj^s they dominated the provisional govern- ment entirely. With their own propaganda and their own organiza- tions, not the governmental organizations, they destroyed Korniloff's army. I have copies of the proclamations with which they did it; and when Kerensky attempted again to assume control after the democratic organization had smashed Korniloff, it was a little too late, because the democratic organizations had proved that they were stronger than the provisional government, and much more determined en smashing Korniloff. Do you want me to go on and tell the situation ? Mr. Humes. I want you to state the actual conditions as to there being peace or civil war, terror or anarchy, or whatever it was. Mr. Eeed. There was civil war. Korniloff was marching on Petro- grad; and as time went on, under the Kerensky government, things got very bad. Then, when I arrived there, the Ukrainian government, which is now considered very patriotic by the allies, was dickering for a separate peace with Germany. Vinnitchenko declared that he was going to make peace with Germany if it suited him, and the Fin- nish senate had declared Finland autonomous. Eussia was breaking upj as it has never broken up since. The provisional government was quite powerless. The provisional government included a lot of So- cialist ministers, who had entered the cabinet promising certain things. Tchernov promised that some disposition would be made of the land question, and when he got in there he was unable to act, be- cause the bourgeois ministers, the propertied-class ministers, would not play. So that when he started out by making a valuation of the land, all he could do after three months, just at the time I arrived, Avas to propose a small bill, proposing that committees be sent around to make valuation of these landed estates, and these commissions were promptly arrested by the landowners and put in jail; the landowners would not obey the provisional government, and the peasants got mad and began seizing the land themselves, and the government could not bring any pressure to bear on the landowners, but they could on the peasants, and so they sent Cossacks to restore order. Mr. Humes. The object was to ultimately secure a constituent as- sembly which might enact the laws providing that the lands might be distributed and that the socialistic measures that he advocated might be carried out ? Mr. Eeed. Yes. 568 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. And he wanted to do that through the constituent assembly elected by the people, and the people became restless because of the delay in the calling of that constituent assembly. Mr. Reed. Yes ; that is so. That is just one of the reasons for which they became restless. Mr. Humes. Where were you at the time of the Bolshevik revolu- tion ? Were you in Petrograd ? Mr. Eeed. I was in Petrograd. Mr. Humes. Will you just describe what took place at that time as you saw it? Mr. Eeed. Why, yes. You see, I will have to go back just for a moment. During the democratic conference held in Petrograd, which I believe was financed by Col. Thompson, of the American Red Cross, Avhich at any rate the American Red Cross at that time was uphold- ing — I am not sure about it financing, but I have been told on very good authority that the Red Cross was cooperating in every way with the Kerensky government ; this was just after the Korniloff revolt— the democratic conference voted one night to have a representative assembly and that the propertied classes should not have any votes in it. It was a pretty democratic affair. Mr. Humes. Can you give us the date of that ? Mr. Reed. It was the middle of September. The moderate Socialist leaders hurried to the Winter Palace, and they said that this thing was getting quite serious ; that it was going to split all Russia in half. Kerensky declared if the propertied classes were not admitted, he would resign ; he said that everything was going to the dpvil and the Germans were landing, or supposed to be landing ; so his spokesmen went back to this democratic conference and said that there must not be a representative assembly without representation of the propertied classes, or the wJiole government would fall. So the moderate So- cialists managed to swing the delegates in the voting in favor of admitting the propertied classes, the very people who had been back- ing Korniloff. The Bolsheviki were for an all-Socialist government, and they declared that this was a trick, so that they walked out and called for a congress of Soviets, of workers' and soldiers' deputies, to meet in October. This congress should have been called in September, according to the soviet constitution, but the Kerensky crowd— I mean the representatives of the moderate Socialists — refused to call this congress. The moderate Socialists were not going to call this congress if they could a^'oid it, because the sov]ets had been becoming one by one Bolsheviki. Mr. Humes, "\¥hen had the First All-Russian Soviet met? Mr. Reed. That was in June. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that the only requirement was that that should meet twice a year? Mr. Reed. No; every three months. The second congress should have been held three months later. Mr. Humes. All right; proceed. Mr. Reed. As the day approached for the meeting of this congress of the Soviets, not only the government opposed it but all the moderate Socialist leaders, who had been losing their constituents to the Bol- sheviki. It soon became evident that either the soviet would meet and declare that the provisional government did not represent the BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA.' 569 people and take over the government themselves, and the provisional government would resign, or else there would be a fight between the two. That strife between the provisional government and the Soviets of soldiers' and workers' deputies had been going on for a whole year. There were two governments existing in Eussia. Now, the congress of the Soviets was to meet November 7. On the night of November 5 the Kerenskjr. government — well, there are several details in that story, one the formation of the military revo- lutionary committee. The Kerensky government, knowing that the garrison of Petrograd was all Bolshevik, had ordered it out of the city, in spite of the will of the soldiers' committees. The garrison did not want to leave without being sure of the regiments that were com- ing to take their places, that they should be composed of soldiers who could be trusted to preserve the revolution ; and if they left they did not know what reaction there might be. So that this strife between the provisional government and the military revolutionary com- mittee, which represented the Petrograd garrison, became very severe, and finally came to an open clash; the military revolutionary com- mittee declared that it would not obey the provisional government until it had representation in the general staff. The Kerensky govern- ment, on the night of the 4th of November, sent a general to the Smolny Institute to say that he would grant this representation, and then Gen. Manikoffsky revoked that offer of Kerensky himself at 2 o'clock in the morning. The next night Kerensky sent regiments of troops to close down the Bolshevik newspapers, and issued warrants of arrest for the soviet leaders. The next day, of course, the gar- rison gathered around the soviet, and that night the Pavloff regi- ment, which was on duty at the genefal staff, heard the general staff drawing up plans for the surrounding of the Smolny Institute and the dispersal of the Soviets. The Pavloff regiment decided that they . ought to take things into their own hands, and their committee met, and they decided to arrest the ministers; they did arrest them and took them to the Smolny Institute, and the Bolsheviki who were meeting there sai>d, "We do not want anybody arrested. This is premature. Nobody has done anything to us yet " ; and they released the ministers, and at 6 o'clock in the morning the military committee got conclusive, indisputable evidence that warrants had already been issued for the arrest of Lenine and Trotzky and all the others, and they sent out detachments from the garrison to seize and hold all the principal points of the city. The Soviets met that night and decided to assume the government in the name of the people of Russia, of which they claimed that they were the true representatives, repre- senting the great mass of the people, and the Winter Palace fell, under bombardment, at 11 o'clock. Mr. Humes. Was that at night or in the daytime ? Mr. Reed. At night ; and from that time on the movement spread in almost identical form with almost identical results practically all over Russia, and also all over Siberia. Mr. Htimbs. How much blood was shed and how much rioting and how much disorder was there in the fall of the Winter Palace, or in the taking over of the government? Mr. Reed. I know that the chief of the militia — that is, of the city militia — was shot when he was trying to arrest the editors of Bolshe- vik papers. Somebody shot him. 570 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. In the taking of the Winter Palace there were 11 men killed on the side of the Bolsheviki, and, as far as I Imow, in the fighting— I was there all the time — I could not find any further casualties. There was not one man killed of the people defending the palace. That was 11 men killed in the taking of the Winter Palace. When they arrested the junkers, the officer cadets, who were de- fending the Winter Palace, they let them go. I saw the red guards come out with them, armed, under arrest, and they brought them to the door and said, " Will you take up arms any more against the risen people? " The junkers answered, " No," and they were allowed to go free. Four days later those same junkers went down and captured the telephone station, and they were again taken prisoner, and this time, owing to the intervention of Albert Rhys Williams, they were re- leased again. Thej' were asked again if they would take up arms, and they again said no, and they were disarmed and sent off. Mr. Htjmes. Each time they were disarmed? Mr. Eeed. Yes. Senator Wolcott. No ; the first time they were not disarmed, did you not say? Mr. Reed. Yes; they were disarmed both times. Wlien the Cossacks came up from the south these same junkers came out and joined Kerensky, after having given their parole twice not to do so, and this time about 20 of them were killed. Senator Wolcott. How many were there defending the Winter Palace? Mr. Reed. There were about 250 of them. When the ministers were arrested they were taken on foot to Peter and Paul Fortress, and there were three attempts by the crowd on the street to lynch them — this was after midnight— but they were defended by the Kronstadt sailors, and none of them were killed. Senator Wolcott. The Kerensky officials were in the Winter Palace, were they not ? Mr. Reed. Yes. Senator Wolcott. Was Kerensky himself in there? Mr. Reed. No; Kerensky escaped to the front in the morning- early that morning — before things happened ; he went down to the front and tried to raise an army. But there is another point that ought to be cleared up here, be- cause it will probably reappear over and over, and that is about the so-called rape of the woman's battalion which was defending the Winter Palace. I took particular pains to verify that, and I have also a report on that from the anti-Bolshevik commission which was sent to Levashovo to investigate. The woman's battalion found itself in the Winter Palace. It was asked to swear allegiance to Kerensky. There was only a very small force there, just about 250 of these women, and 200 junkers ; and the junkers locked the woman's bat- talion in the back of the palace so that nothing would happen to the women. They were locked down in the cellar there, and the Bolshe- viki, the Red Guards, after they came into the Winter Palace, looked all around, and they thought there might be junkers hiding down there, and they opened the door and saw this woman's battalion, and they did not want to hurt them, nobody was very hot at that time. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 571 The Eed Guards said, " What shall we do with these people? " They could not get the women to go out of the place ; they were afraid that they were going to be murdered ; so that finally the Eed Guards went and got a neutral officer of a certain regiment, who had not joined the Bblsheviki, but who was considered an honest sort of fellow, and he told the women that he was not a Bolshevik, and he would see that they were treated fairly. Most of them were carried to the Finland station and sent to Levashovo; but many of them wanted to stay in town, and the Bolsheviki walked around with them almost all night, looking for some place to put them, and finally found a place to put them, and three weeks later all the women were brought into town, and they were given civilian clothes and disbanded as a regiment. The reports were that a great many of these women had been violated, and that some of them were thrown out of windows, and that four of them had committed suicide. The report to the Duma of Petrograd — which was against the Bolsheviki — was that one woman had evidently been violated. No women had been killed: no women had been thrown out of a window ; and one woman only had committed suicide, and she left a note in which she said that she had been disappointed in her ideals. Mr. Humes. You heard about the deaths in this woman's battalion, Mr. Eeed. Whom did you find in Eussia that had formerly been residents in the United States, and what were their names ? Mr. Eeed. I found quite a lot of people, but I do not remember all of their names. I will tell you what I can think of. Mr. Htjmes. As far as you can remember. Mr. Eeed. Shatoff. Mr. Htjmes. When had he been in the United States? Mr. Eeed. He went back at the beginning of the Kerensky revo- lution. Mr. Humes. How long had he been here ? Mr. Eeed. I think a couple of years. Mr. Humes. He was a Eussian, was he not ? Mr. Eeed. Yes ; he was a Eussian. Mr. Humes. WLo else? Mr. Eeed. Then there was a man named Petrovsky. Mr. Humes. Was he a Eussian? Mr. Eeed. Yes. Mr. Humes. Where did he live? Mr. Eeed. I do not know where he lived. I met him in New York, but I am pretty sure he did not live there. I met him before. He was practically the only one that I had met before. Mr. Humes. Do you know how long he had been in the United States? Mr. Eeed. About four or five years, I should say, maybe longer. Mr. Humes. He was a Eussian, was he? Mr. Eeed. He was a Eussian. Mr. Humes. What was his correct name? Did he have another name? . -, ■ . Mr. Eeed. I think he had another name. All Eussian revolutionists have other names, everyone of them. Mr. Humes. What was his other name? 572 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGAinJA. Mr. Eeed. Nelson. Mr. Humes. Who else ? Mr. Eeed. George Melnichansky. Mr. Humes. "Wliere did he live in the United States? , Mr. Eeed. Bayonne, N. J. Mr. Humes. How long had he been here ? Mr. Eeed. I do not know. Mr. Humes. What was his other name ? Mr. Eeed. Melcher. He changed it because no one could pro- nounce it. Mr. Humes. Was he a Eussian ? Mr. Eeed. Yes. Mr. Husies. Who else ? Mr. Eeed. Of course there was Trotzky, but Trotzky was only here about a year ; and Eeinstein, and Zorin, who was commissar of posts and telegraphs. Mr. Humes. What was his other name ? Mr. Eeed. Gumberg. Mr. Humes. Was he a Eussian ? Mr. Eeed. He is a Eussian Jew. Mr. Humes. How Jong had he been in this country ? Mr. Eeed. I think he was only here a few months ; I am not sure, I know he can hardly speak English at all. Mr. Humes. Go on; who else? Mr. Eeed. Manyinin, who was a Eussian business man here. Mr. Humes. What was his other name? Mr. Eeed. That is all, I think. He had nothing to do with the fighting at all. Mr. Humes. Was he a Eussian ? Mr. Eeed. He was a Eussian. He was mayor of the town of Sestroretzk under the Bolsheviki. He was primarily a mechanic and manufacturer. Mr. Humes. Who else? Mr. Eeed. Well, Alexander Gumberg, the man who got the Sisson documents for Sisson. Mr. Humes. What was his position over there in the government? Mr. Eeed. He did not have any position in the government. Mr. Humes. Who else? Mr. Eeed. I am not saying all these people had positions in the government. Is that what you mean ? Mr. Humes. Confine it to the ones who had some position with the government. Mr. Eeed. You could confine it to Trotsky, Eeinstein, Zorin, and I think that is all. Senator Wolcott. Did you ever come in contact with the man who is the head of the Nicolai Eailroad ? What was his name? Mr. Eeed. His name was Krushinsky. Senator Wolcott. Was he from America ? Mr. Eeed. No ; he was not. I will tell you how this story about Shatoff came to be told. Senator Wolcott. There was some fellow there at one time as the head of that railway, according to a witness who testified here, who was very familiar with New York and the island and Brooklyn. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 573 Mr. Reed. Of course, a man who comes through the train and asks you for your passport is not the head of a railway. Senator Wolcott. The witness said he was. Mr. Reed. I take issue with the witness, and I will tell you why. I think it is a natural mistake, because every American that came to Petrograd was told that Shatoff was a great demon, and a most ter- rible anarchist, etc., so there have been people who have written magazine articles who have described that they met some Russian from the East Side who had some obscure little position — perhaps he ■was a ticket agent, and he talked about New York — and they put the name Shatoff to him. This Shatoff who was talked about I know intimately, as I know most of the fellows from America in prominent positions there. Senator Wolcott. You left there, I think you said, in January. Mr. Humes. February 7. Mr. Reed. Yes ; but I know pretty well what Shatoff has been do- ing since then. Senator Wolcott. You have not been back since that time ? Mr. Reed. No ; but Shatoff was not the man to put in charge of a railroad, and they never had him do that. You can look in Izvestija and find out what Shatoff is doing. Senator Wolcott. Was he ever put in charge of the Nicolai Rail- road ? Mr. Reed. Not so far as I know. I think everybody knows Shatoff and what he was doing. Senator Wolcott. Mr. Humes, did not a witness testify here that the man who was the head of that railroad was Shatoff ? Mr. Htjmes. I do not recall what the name was. That may have been the name. He said he was the commissar or superintendent of some work in connection with that line of railroad. Senator Wolcott. He seemed to be boss of the situation, they said. Mr. HrrMES. Who else, now ? Give us the names of the rest. Senator Wolcott. The point I wanted to make was that the man you refer to, who was talked about, never was the head of the rail- road, as you said ? Mr. Reed. Not so far as I know; and I am sure he could not be. His whole job was in another direction. Mr. Htjmes. There might be some other Shatoff. Mr. Reed. There might be some other Shatoff, although I do not know. Then, there was a man, as I said — this is connected with the government, you mean? Mr. Humes. Yes; connected with the government. Mr. Reed. There was a man named Meshkovsky. Mr. Humes. What was his other name? Mr. Reed. I do not remember. I do not know whether I knew it or not. Mr. Humes. Was he a Russian or a Russian Jew ? Mr. Reed. A Russian. Mr. Humes. Who else? Just go right down the list. Mr. Reed. I have not got any list. Mr. Humes. You have in your mind, probably? Mr. Reed. Well, every once in a while people would come there. There was a fellow that I knew who used to call himself Eddie. 574 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGAITOA. That is all I knew about him. He came as the representative of the soviet of Kharkoff, which is away down in the south. Almost every small soviet in the industrial districts throughout Russia had some fellow who had been in America. I know another one also— although I did not know him when I came there — Voskoff, who was the organizer of the carpenters' union in America and did a tre- mendous work organizing a government arms factory just outside of Petrograd. Mr. Humes. What was his other name ? Mr. Reed. That is all I knew. Mr. Humes. Where were his headquarters ? Mr. Eeed. I think in New York. Mr. Humes. He was a Russian, was he? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. Was he naturalized in this country ? Mr. Reed. I do not think so. I do not know. I know he was a very marvelous organizer. Mr. Humes. Among the commissars in Petrograd, how many of them had been to the United States? Mr. Reed. You mean the council of people's commissars? Mr. Humes. Yes ; the council of people's commissars. Mr. Reed. Only one ; Trotzky, I think. Mr. Humes. Trotzky was the only one? Mr. Reed. So far as I can remember. If you will prompt, probably I can tell you. Mr. Humes. Have you a complete list of them ? Mr. Reed. Of the council of commissars? Mr. Humes. Yes. Mr. Reed. Not at this moment. I can work it out in a few mo- ments without any trouble. Mr. Humes. Will you make a list and hand it to us this afternoon! I do not want to take the time now. Mr. Reed. Surely. Senator Woloottt. Who was the commissar of the northern Petro- grad commune? Mr. Reed. At the present time? Senator Wolcott. Who was when you were there? Mr. Reed. There was no such thing when I was there. That was established afterwards; it was established in about April, I think; April or May. Senator Wolcott. Do you know who, he was? Mr. Reed. Zinoviev. Senator Wolcott. My recollection is that some witness testified wko he was, and, as I remember, he was secretary to Mr. Robins. Mr. Reed. Zorin was meant. Zorin may have been chief commissar of the northern commune at one time. Zorin is the man whose name I said was Gumberg ; but, of course, it was his brother who was work- ing with Robins. And that Gumberg was not working with Raymond Robins at that time ; he was 'translator to Sisson. Mr. Humes. When had he been secretary to Robins, before or after he became engaged by Sisson ? Mr. Reed. Before. Mr. Humes. When did Sisson go to Russia ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 575 'I Mr. Eeed. Sisson turned up there — let me see — the end of Decem- ber, I believe ; I think just about the middle of December. Mr. Humes. Decembor, 1917? Mr. Reed. Probably. Mr. Humes. Well, December, 1917. Mr. Eeed. Yes; sure. Mr. Humes. Prior to that time Gumberg had been secretary to Eobins ? Mr. Eeed. Translator, not secretary. Mr. Humes. Well, employed by him ? Mr. Eeed. Of course I do not •want to cormnent on Mr. Eobins's or Mr. Sisson's personal affairs in regard to Gumberg, but that is my understanding. . Mr. Humes. We are only trying to identify the man. that is all. Mr. Eeed. Yes. Mr. Humes. Now, Mr. Eeed, during the period from the November revolution up until you left, on the 7th of February, what was the ; condition of affairs in Petrograd ? Mr. Eeed. Well, in order to tell you that I will have to tell what it was like at the end of the Kerensky regime. Mr. Humes. You did. Mr. Eeed. No ; I did not. Mr. Humes. I thought you covered that. I asked you some time ago, I think. Mr. Eeed. You did not ask me that. You asked me what it was like when I arrived in Petrograd. Mr. Humes. Just go on and tell us what the condition was from the time you arrived up until the revolution, and then tell us what the condition was during the revolution and up until the time that vou left. Mr. Eeed. Well, the last month of the Kerensky regime was marked lirst by the falling off of the bread supply from 2 pounds a day to 1 pound, to half a pound, to a quarter of a pound, and, the final week, no bread at all. Holdups and crime increased to such an extent that you could hardly walk down the streets. The papers were full of it. Not only had the government broken down, but the municipal gov- ernment had absolutely broken down. The city militia was quite dis- organized and up in the air, and the street-cleaning apparatus and all that sort of thing had broken down. The cooperative distribution of food had broken down — milk and everything of that sort. The first five nights of the Bolshevik revolution were marked by an utter absence of crime of any kind. It was probably the most orderly time there has ever been in Petrograd, because the streets were patroled by patrols of red guards and soldiers who were fired by a certain kind of idealism. Mr. Humes. I do not want to interrupt yoii, but you say the first five days of the revolution. You mean the five days following the success of the Bolshevik revolution, I assume. Mr. Eeed. No ; because for two or three, weeks it did not succeed. There were counter revolutions in the beginning, and it was not entirely successful the night that the Winter Palace fell. Mr. Humes. Five nights following the fall of the Winter Palace? Mr. Eeed. Including the fall of the Winter Palace. After that things settled down to normal — well, no. I will withdraw that and 576 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. say that for the first three weeks of the Bolshevik regime the city was excellently policed and excellent order was kept in it. After that time several factors entered into the situation, and one of them was the wine riots. The soldiers of certain regiments got on to the fact that there were wine cellars, and telephone messages were sent to the barracks and also notes were sent to the barracks saying where these wine cellars were, and I think a few of those provocateur notes declared that the soldiers should go and get the wine in the various places. Well, it was very cold, and these soldiers were out on the streets most of the time fighting, etc., and they yielded to temptation — some of them — and broke into the wine cel- lars. For about two weeks you would hear of a sudden in the night a terrible crash — somebody would smash a window in— and the soldiers would go in and pass out the bottles, and there would be a crowd of about 200 soldiers around the wine cellars, and they would drink this wine and go around town firing off guns in the air. They did some' damage, but it was very inconsiderable. Mr. Humes. I understood you a moment ago to say that there was very little disorder and everything was quiet after those first three weeks. Now you have said that the soldiers were on the streets fighting all the time, and consequently they wanted the wine. Now, suppose we reach an understanding about that. Mr. Eeed. I am not talking about civil war; I am talking about crime ; I am talking about unlicensed crime — holding up people and shooting them. I am not talking about two armed forces fighting each other. There were no houses robbed and no hold-ups. I am not talking about civil war. Mr. Humes. But there was fighting on the streets all the tune? Mr. Reed. No ; there was not fighting on the streets all the time. Mr. Humes. To what extent was there fighting? Mr. Eeed. There was only fighting to this extent. There was fighting on the day of the fall of the Winter Palace, that is one day, that was Wednesday. There was fighting the following Sunday and the following Monday, when the junkers made a counter-revolu- tion. There was fighting the following Tuesday at night, and Wed- nesday morning when Kerensky's army was reported to be 4 miles from the city and coming in. Mr. Humes. Was it ? Mr. Eeed. No, it was not ; but that was the rumor. It was 8 miles from the city. Mr. Humes. That was the result of a false rumor as to the location of the troops ? Mr. Reed. The point is that a lot of people rose, thinking that he was coming in, and it upset affairs. Mr. Humes. Go on. Mr. Reed. The Soviets stopped the wine pogToms themselves. They sent first the Kronstadt sailors and tried to stop the looting of the wine cellars by argument, and they also made speeches about it in the Soviets, and they published proclamations, etc., and so on, and they kept that up for about fwo weeks ; but the plundering of the wine cellars still continued, especially by two regiments — ^the lowest element of the regiments — so the Soviets saw that something had to be done immediately. They took a vote on the use of force in the BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 577 central executive committee of the Soviets, and the debate lasted about four and a half hours, at the end of which time they sent out trucks with machine guns strapped on them, and they stopped this business. The commissars would go on and give three warnings to the men who were looting the wine cellars, and if the men left the wine cellars, the commissars would go in and smash all the bottles out in the street and let the wine flow. That is what they did with the Winter Palace wine cellar, which was worth about $4,000,000, and they poured the wine into the Neva. If the soldiers did not leave the wine cellars, they would shoot. Mr. HtTMES. When did that take place with reference to the revolu- tion? Was that at the end of the three weeks' period after the fall of the Winter Palace ? Mr. Eeed. I think it began — this lasted for quite a while. Mr. Htjmes. How long did it last ? Was it still in vogue when you left? Mr. Eeed. No ; it had been stopped. Mr. Humes. How long ? Mr. Eeed. It lasted for about two weeks and a half, because the Soviets could not get their minds made up to use force on these people ; and they had to be more cr less careful politically, too, because they had to educate everybody to this revolution and see that the wrong- doers were punished. Mr. Humes. What change was made in the method of furnishing food to the population when the Bolshevik government came in ? Mr. Eeed. Of course, the Kerensky government had dropped out without leaving any resources at all in the city, or supplies, and the soviet government was faced with strikes in all the ministries. The employees of all the ministries went on strike, the bank clerks went on strike, the employees of large business houses — clerks, etc. — went on strike, even the telephone girls went on strike against the Bolsheviki ; and not only that, but the cooperative associations refused to pro- vision the city unless the Bolshevik goA^ernment was overthrown. Mr. Humes. The Bolshevik government? Mr. Eeed. Well, at that time it was the Bolshevik government for a few days. Mr. Humes. This was before the Bolshevik revolution, though, was it not? Mr. Eeed. No; you asked me what happened after the Bolshevik revolution: Mr. Humes. Pardon me. I wanted to locate the time. Go on. Mr. Eeed. They suspected that the food speculators had great stores stored away in the city, which were being held for high prices, so they went around to the great warehouses which had been reported, to find out if food was being held, and as there was a desperate emergency they proceeded to take this food and distribute it to the people. During all the time I was there under the soviet government there was never so little bread as there had been in the last week or week and a half of the Kerensky regime. When it came to the end of December we were put back to a pound and a half a day again, and the way the Soviets did it was very interesting. You see, it was an emergency govern- ment, without the possibility of using the government machinery, because the government machinery A\'as paralyzed. They could not 85723—19 37 578 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. depend on the higher officinls, bnt only on the organized ^yill of the working people. So they closed the trans-Siberian to all passenger traffic for 24 days, and then they got 13 trains, and they got the shop committees in charge of the different factories to load up these trains with things that the peasants needed, and took a government com- mission with those things — clothing, implements, and everything the peasants needed, and sent them out to exchange these articles for food, because the Kerenskv govei'nment money was not worth anything. Mr. HuJiEs. Where did they get this clothing and these commodities that they were taking out to trade Avith the peasants for food supplies? Mr. Eeed. They got them from the factory workers. Mr. Humes. They were requisitioned? Mr. Eeed. They were requisitioned. Mr. Htjmes. Had those factories been nationalized at that time? Mr. Reed. Well, a great many of them had practically been na- tionalized. That is to say, the owners had fled away six or eight months before and the workmen had continued them. I know sev- eral factories that were operated that way. The workmen continued to manufacture after the factories were officially shut down. The owners had left for foreign parts. Mr. Humes. In effect, they simply requisitioned or confiscated enough material for those 13 trains that were sent out. They were sent out into Siberia or the interior, and took that stuff to the peas- ants and traded that stuff to the peasants for supplies, which they brought back into Petrograd for the feeding of the people. Mr. Eeed. Not only that, but for the government of Samara and the government of Tambov and other Provinces where famine was threatening. Senator Wolcott. Did they take any of those things from stores? Mr. Reed. No; this was a pure cooperation of the factory shop committee in the factories to get together all things that they had manufactured. At that time they did not touch anything in the stores. My. Humes. Are there textile mills in Petrograd? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. Now, when they got this foodstuff, how was it issued? Mr. Reed. It was issued by iDread cards from the special food com- mittee. At that time the special food committee started to strike; but they happened to remember that they themselves would starve, so they decided to go on working. Mr. Humes. How was the population divided, if at all, for the purpose of issuing this food ? Mr. Reed. Well, every citizen at that time was given the ordinary food cards, such as were in use in every country in war time. That, of course, was a government measure, but it had been carried fur- ther. Mr. Humes. They gave those cards to all the people ? Mr. Reed. To all the people at that time. Mr. Humes. Now, subsequent to that time, and while you were there, were the decrees issued dividing the population into classes for the purpose of provisioning? Mr. Reed. No; it was not necessary at that time. Mr. Humes. Subsequently, however, that was done, was it not. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 579 Mr. Reed. I believe it was. I have seen the decree. Mr. Htjmes. And the people were divided into four classes, accord- ing to their business or standing in the community, as viewed by the government? Mr. Eeed. No ; according to their usefulness and their need. You know, the people that did the least Mr. Humes. The usefulness was determined by the government ? Mr. Reed. The people that got the least food Mr. Humes. They were arbitrarily classified according to their alleged usefulness into four classes? Mr. Reed. And the members of the government got the least food, you will notice that. Mr. Humes. I have not seen any evidence of that. Mr. Reed. You will notice it in the degree. Mr. Humes. We will get to that after a little while. Now, that all happened ? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. So you do not know how it 'worked out in practice? Mr. Reed. No. Mr. Humes. Did you see any starvation in Petrograd while you were there ? Mr. Reed. Well, food was not so easy to get. Mr. Humes. Any starvation? Mr. Reed. I have never seen any actual starvation. I have seen people very hungry. There is no doubt about it. I have been very hungry myself. Mr. Humes. But the conditions had not become disturbed when you left ? Mr. Reed. No. Mr. Humes. Were there any pilfering and holdups on the streets up to the time that you left? Mr. Reed. There was very little in comparison with the last week of the Kerensky government. You might also say that the city was about as orderly as it had ever been. There was really very strict policing in Petrograd at that time. Of coure, it would be foolish to say that there was no crime in the city. Mr. Humes. Now, Mr. Reed, is there anything else that you want to say in connection with the things that you saw in Petrograd as to the conditions there. If there is, just make the statement. Mr. Reed. I would like to say one thing about the way that a fac- tory is run, because I think very few people understand that. But first I want to speak just for a moment about this classification. In most countries, you see, when there is a time of famine — and that was true in Europe during the war — the people who suffer the most are the families of the working people ; while in Petrograd, of course, the thing was quite opposite. The working people in their unions had a preference in food, and the working people, the people who did actual work — I do not mean by that manual labor; I mean any kind of labor — the food was distributed in this classification entirely accord- ing to the necessity for food. That is to say, people engaged in heavy manual labor needed more food, and they got more, and the people who needed less got less, and the government employees, who worked with their brains, as it is called, got very little, as compared to the workers. 580 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. The whole industrial machinery in Russia is controlled by what is called the council of workers control, and that council of work- ers control consists of delegates from the all-Eussian trade unions which determine wages, hours, and conditions of each industry, and the all-Russian council of factory shop committees, which controls production at the source. And I would say here that there are 304 industries nationalized, in Russia, and all the rest are in private hands. They are controlled, however, by the workers entirely. Mr. Humes. Then all of the factories have not been nationalized? Mr. Reed. Oh, no. Mr. Humes. That is in disregard of one of the principles of the government, not to nationalize them? Mr. Reed. The government is not one of those theoretical dreams that e\eryone seems to think it must be. The government is extremely practical in Russia. The government knows itself per- fectly well that it is impossible to ignore the capitalist. It knows that if the capitalists do not attack them with arms they would with capital. Senator Wolcott. Is that the philosophy of their international program, to try to make all the world socialistic, and thus, so to speak, make the world safe for socialism? Mr. Reed. I should say it was. I may say that they are not going to do it with an invading army, but by the advertisement of their doctrine. That is international socialism, which has existed for the last 40 or 50 years. Senator Wolcott. People in charge of the soviet government favor that, do they not? Mr. Reed. I should think they did. Senator Wolcott. You said there were 304 industries national- ized? Air. Reed. Yes. Senator Wolcott. That, of course, means more than 304 factories? Mr. Reed. Yes ; it means much more than that. None of those in- dustries are completely nationalized. There are one or two factories that are not in every case. What I wanted to say was that the Russian republic has offered, the soviet government has offered to foreign capital inducements to come to Russia, even as it is. They offered it to the American am- bassador at a certain time. They have offered it to all the European countries, especially the allied countries, in the same way they offered to keep on fighting Germany if they should be given certain aid by the allied countries, which offer was in some cases refused and in other cases ignored. The Russian government, as soon as a man who owns a factory is interested in developing and is interested in the work, and can do something to keep the factory going, and has a definite place in it, and is willing to work, under workers' control, does not nationalize the factory. In other words, it guarantees him an income. Now, as regards the figures for industry, everybody seems to think that there is no industry going on in Russia. But, as a matter of fact, practically 63 to 68 per cent of the textile business of Great Russia is under control of the soviet government, and it is almost normal in production. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 581 Senator Wolcott. Where do you get that information 'from? Mr. Eeed. I got it from the official report of the ministry of com- merce and industry, which also gives all the industries in which production is not normal, in which the industry has fallen off. In some industries it has absolutely ceased. Senator AVolcott. That is a Bolshevik soviet ministry? Mr. Reed. That is a soviet ministry. Senator Wolcott. That puts out this information ? Mr. Reed. It does not put it out primarily for the outside world. Senator Wolcott. From which you got your information ? Mr. Reed. Yes. I have never seen that questioned, by the way. I have a copy of the Survey. Senator Wolcott. The witnesses have questioned it here. Mr. Reed. I have a copy of the Survey of February 1, 1919, with an article called "A new Era in Russian Industry," written in the summer of 1918 by Clara I. Taylor, who is an industrial investigator in this country, and who investigated Russian industry in the summer of 1918, in the worst period of Russian industry, when it was most disorganized; and the picture she paints in many instances shows that the soviet government has not lived up to what it said it was going to do. It shows, however, that there is an immense industry, especially textile industry, around Moscow. She knows what the factories around Moscow are doing; she has investigated them. I have seen two or three very interesting examples of factories worked by the workers. One was at Sestrovetzk, the government arms factory. It may not be believed here when I tell these figures. They can be verified. I think Prof. Ross might verify them. Of course, it was a government-owned factory under the old regime, and therefore full of grafters and very inefficient; but the workers have reduced the expenses of running the factory 50 per cent, have reduced the hours from ll^ hours to 8, and have increased produc- tion 45 per cent. They not only have done that, but they have taken over the town and have built the first sewer system they ever had in the town, and they have built a three-story school building and hospital. I will grant that that was a model factory and a model town, and the people at the head of the soviet had a great experi- ence in organization, as most of the leaders of the soviet were raen who had been in America and had gone back and were able to render valuable service. Senator Wolcott. You say that you saw that yourself? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. That had been a government institution organized to make war material during the war ? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Htjmes. And it had been organized by and under the control of the government prior to the revolution, and the activities there were continued by the Bolshevik government after they came into power ? Mr. Reed. It is a little more complicated than that. Mr. Humes. It was not a plant that had been nationalized and taken over in the sense that private enterprises were nationalized, ■was it? 582 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Eeed. Yes ; it was absolutely the same system of management. Mr. Humes. It was a government plant all the time? Mr. Reed. Yes; but the nationalized government plant and na- tionalized private plant are on an equality as regards management. Senator Wolcott. Did they use the same personnel when they took it over? Mr. Reed. That was an interesting thing. These government fac- tories were built by the old regime, and, of course, when the Czar fell most of the managers ran away. When the Czar abdicated the old managers left or were kicked out by the workmen, who hated them anyway, so the government factories in Russia had practically one year's jump on the private factories in working out workers' control. The Kerensky government had never been able to get control of the factories. They really ran themselves by the workers and not under the domination of the ministries of labor, and commerce, and in- dustry at all. Mr. Htjjies. There was a feeling in Germany and a general belief that under the Czar's regime many of those that were employed in the service of the government were pro-German and not in sympathy with the war against Germany? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. But is it not true that that was an arms and munition factory of the government, and is not that one of the reasons — the inefficiency and ineffectiveness of that plants — which account very largely for the want of equipment of the Russian Army in the field, and their being unable to supply themselves with the necessary imple- ments of war? Mr. Reed. I think that is very possible. But you must remember there is another factor, too, and that was not only the inability to get munitions but the deliberate manufacture of munitions that did not fit the guns. That was done, of course. The trial of Gen. Souk- homlinoff showed very well that the Minister of War under the Czar had had those munitions manufactured so that they did not fit the guns, and that thing was carried on in some parts of Russia even under the Kerensky government. I do not mean to say that Kerensky knew the situation, but his chief of staff, Kornilof , compelled the fall of Riga in order to compel the fall of the soldiers' committee. Mr. HuJiES. In other words, the gross mismanagement in the mu- nition factories was not rectified when Kerensky came into power, but was continued under Kerenslcy. Mr. Reed. That is practically true, except at the places where the workmen took things over. Senator Wolcott. The point proves this, does it not, assuming all the facts you have stated, that soviet management of the munitions business was more efficient than government operation as it mani- fested itself in Russia? Mr. Reed. Oh, yes. I do not think a capitalist government can be efficient in managing anything. Senator Wolcott. The extent of the proof about this factory is that the government management under the Russian regime was less efficient than the soviet management. It does not prove, that par- ticular incident, any excellence of the soviet management, for m- stiince, over private industry? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 583 Mr. Reed. That particular incident does not. I believe there is an American, of the American Railway Mission, who was interviewed in New York — I am not at liberty to give his name, but he is in Wash- ington now — who testified as to the results of the soviet management as compared with private management. Senator Wolcott. You say he was a railroad man? Mr. Reed. I think I can get him and get his name for you. Mr. Humes. How many newspapers were being published in Russia when you left ? Mr. Reed. About 10,000,000, I should imagine. Mr. Htjmes. Were there any being printed that were not being printed under the control of the government ? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. HiTMES. How long was it after you left that the government took over the control of all the newspapers? Mr. Reed. I think my wife was not quite able to get that o^'er to you. There seems to be a misunderstanding. I want to explain what the soviet government did. They sought to destroy the mo- nopoly of the press by the propertied classes. They took over the monopoly not of the newspapers bxit of the ink-printing presses and paper in Russia. A commission was elected, a nonpartisan commis- sion, a commission composed of proportional representatives of all the political parties, to decide upon the distribution of this paper and ink and presses. The municipal elections determined what pro- portion of constituents each party had, and the proportion of con- stituents of each political party determined the amount of ink, paper, and presses which were awarded to that part}' ; that is to say, if the Cadet Party had a third of the votes, it got a third of the available printing facilities. Mr. Humes. There is no Cadet paper that is being printed in Rus- sia, is there ? Mr. Reed. There are two there, and I think I can get them for you. Mr. Humes. Where are they printed ? Mr. Reed. One is Moscow. Mr. Humes. What is the name of it ? Mr. Reed. I do not know that. I have seen the papers of several other parties. There are papers of even the opposing parties pub- lished in Moscow at the present time. Mr. Humes. Can you give us the names of any papers that are being printed in Russia that are not controlled by or not supporting the Bolshevik government ? Mr. Reed. Volia Naroda, a socialist revolutionary paper. Mr. Humes. Where is that brought out ? Mr. Reed. In Moscow. Mr. Humes. When did you last see that? Mr. Reed. Just the other day. Mr. Humes. What was the date of it ? Mr. Reed. I think it was about December, last December. Mr. Humes. December, 1918 ? M. Reed. I think so. I know I have seen many papers. Mr. Humes. Was that a paper opposing the government? Mr. Reed. Yes. 584 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGAITOA. Mr. Htjmes. In what way was it opposing the government? Mr. Reed. Well, the socialist revolutionary party never did make up its mind to go in with the soviet government, and never let up for one minute opposing the dictatorship of the proletariat theory which the Bolsheviki advanced. Now, I have here an account of the meeting of the Mensheviki, which took place in Moscow. This is in a Bolshevik paper, and it devotes space to the three days' session. A great many of the speakers said that they would not have anything to do with the Bolsheviki under any circumstances. Mr. Humes. When was that meeting, the date of the meeting? Mr. Reed. December 10, 1918. Senator Wolcott. You saw the paper yourself? Mr. Reed. Yes. Senator Wolcott. You made the translation ? Mr. Reed. I did not make the translation ; no. This is published in the Northern Commune, a Bolshevik paper, December 12, 1916 [reading] : At the meeting of tie Mensheviki that took place at Moscow Abramovicli pointed out that the entire democratic element is now fluctuating between two sentiments. Let us have anything rather than the Bolsheviki ; let us have a union of all living forces of the revolution. Martov, at the end of his speech, declared that the entire democracy of the west, even its most right elements, should protest against the plans of foreign imperialists, not only in the name of the people of Russia, but also in the name, chiefly, of the preservation of the accomplishment of the revolution, " whatever may be the result of this Bolsheviki experiment on the revolution." And the decisive resolution practically amounted to this, that they would join together, whatever might be the result of this Bolsheviki government. It is evident that they did not agree with the Bolshe- viki. Now, at Sestroretzk, the town of which I was speaking, when I was there after the Bolshevik insurrection, and at the time of the insurrection, when there was fighting with Kerensky and shooting around Petrograd and Moscow, all the halls had been confiscated by the soviet government. The opposition political parties were going around and asking the Bolshevik soviet government for per- mission to use the halls to talk against them, and they were given to them. According to late newspaper reports this is still the case. Senator Wolcott. When was that? Mr. Reed. January, 1918. Mr. Humes. Now, I call your attention to one of the decrees, as follows [reading] : The following organs of the press shall be subject to be closed: (o) Those inciting to open resistance or disturbance toward the workers' and peasants' government; (b) those sowing confusion by means of an obviously columna- tory perversion of facts ; ( c ) those inciting to acts of criminal character, pun- ishable by the penal laws. Now, is it not a fact that pursuant to that decree no newspapers that are not supporting the Bolsheviki are permitted to be pub- lished ? i\Ir. Reed. That is not true. Mr. Humes. Then, they have not carried their decrees into effect. Mr. Reed. Yes; they have; but you do not have to excite to vio- lence against the government to oppose it. The papers that incite to violence against the Government of this country are suppressed. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 585 Mr. Humes. Do you not think they should be? Senator Wolcott. As a matter of fact, I do not think they are Mr. Eeed. That is the theory of the Post Office, at any rate. Mr. Humes. Do you not think that newspapers that advocate the forcible overthrow of the Government should be suppressed? Mr. Eeed. I think it is perfectly natural that they should be. Mr. Humes. Do you not think they ought to be? Mr. Eeed. It depends upon what you mean by the forcible over- throw of the Government. Mr. Humes. I- mean the overthrow of the Government other than such changes in form as may be brought about under the Constitu- tion, in the way that is provided. Mr. Eeed. Well, I believe that our Declaration of Independence says something about the inalienable right of the people to change the form of government whenever they see fit. Mr. Humes. And following that, the Constitution provides the means by which that should be accomplished, does it not? Mr. Eeed. Yes. Mr. Humes. Do you think that any newspaper or any public speaker has a right to advocate a change in the form of government in any other way than the inalienable way that is provided for in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution itself? Mr. Eeed. I do not think that — I would rather make a broader question of this. Mr. Humes. Just answer the question, and then explain. Mr. Eeed. I can not answer the question without making it in my own way. The way I want to answer that question is this : That I think no changes ought to be made in the form of government until a majority of the people are in favor of such change, and I do not think that any obstruction ought to stand in the way of the will of the majority of the people. Mr. Humes. And you believe that when the majority of the people want that, they are justified in disregarding— that justifies any means by which it can be secured ? Mr. Eeed. If it can be secured by legal means, I do not think there is any justification or excuse for force. Mr. Humes. Now, under the Constitution of the United States the people of the United States can change the form of government in the manner provided for in that document. Mr. Eeed. That is the theory of the government. Mr. Humes. Is not that a fact ? Mr. Eeed. If I did not believe it was a fact, I would not vote, and I do vote. Mr. Humes. Then you must believe that any agitation advocating a change in the form of government in any other way than that man- ner provided by the Constitution is improper and should be sup- pressed. Is that true ? Do you believe that ? Mr. Eeed. No ; there are a great many matters Mr. Humes. You do not believe that. You believe that the people have a right to advocate the overthrow of the Government in a man- ner other than the manner proided for in the fundamental law itself, do you ? Mr. Eeed. I prefer to answer that m my own way. 586 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. I want you to answer the question and then explain. Mr. Reed. I can not answer Senator Wolcott. Let him answer in the way he pleases. Mr. Reed. I am trying to answer everything and not trying to evade anything. The fact is that the constitutions and governments of modern nations — the western liberal nations — were established when industrial era was young, and there were not many conditions of industry which required change. We have found that there are certain cases where purely political action seems to be inadequate; that is, where workers with rising prices for food have tried to get a raise in wages and perhaps do not get it. The srtike is perfectly legal, and yet the strike is not provided for in the Constitution. That is an instance of what I mean; different conditions come up at different times in the history of a people which require different methods of changing the form of government. The rights of workers to or- ganize is not provided for in the Constitution, and was at first bit- terly opposed, but it is now legally recognized. That is what I mean, and as long as a people of a country are really responsive, or the gov- ernment is responsive, to the will of the people there is no necessity for any violence whatever. I do not see any necessity for violence in the United States. Mr. Hu.'MEs. The question of the legality of the organization of labor is not a question of the form of government. Mr. Reed. I do not see why it is not. It is a matter for govern- ment. Mr. Humes. We are talking about the form of government. You are discussing a subject that is a question of possible legislation. You are not discussing the matter that goes to the form of govern- ment. Mr. Reed. I am discussing the matter of laws and legislation. Mr. Humes. That has nothing to do with the form of government. Mr. Reed. No. Mr. Hu3tES. Then you do not question the right of the government to legislate on these subjects? Mr. Reed. Question the right of the government? Mr. Humes. Yes. Mr. Reed. No ; I do not, but it is not provided for in the machinery. If you would look at the reconstruction of the British Empire at this time, the British Imperial Government is undergoing a complete change in form, proposed by the ministry of labor, proposed by Lloyd George to recognize self-government in industry and give industry a share in the government. Mv. Humes. You do not distinguish between legislation intended to carry into effect a form of government and the form of govern- ment itself, do you? Mr. Reed. No; I think the form of government, as composed of accretions — I mean, we have in some States the initiative and refer- endum, and we have a great many legislative reforms which are not provided for in the Constitution in any way, but respond to the needs of the people, that is all. Mr. Humes. Now, Mr. Reed, is it or is it not a fact that in the past you have advocated and been affiliated, directly or indirectly, with anarchistic movements? Have you not proclaimed anarchistic doctrines ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 587 Mr. Eeed. T do not remember having done so. Anarchy means against — I do not understand what you mean by anarchistic doc- trines. Mr. Humes. I mean the abolition of all government. Mr. Reed. No, never, not so far as I know. I am very much against that. Mr. Htjmes. Now, Mr. Eeed, for how long a period of time were you on the German firing line and in Germany? Mr. Eeed. Well, as I testified, a month and a half or two months. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that while you were in Germany and in the German trenches, you there, for amusement or some other purpose, participated in the handling of German machine guns? Mr. Eeed. No ; I never handled a German machine gun. Mr. Humes. Have you not so stated ? Mr. Eeed. No. Mr. Humes. Have you not stated that while you were in the German trenches you fired a German machine gun? Mr. Eeed. No ; I never stated it. I think I had better explain this whole incident. You see, I have been brought up before the French Embassy, and have been pursued in every way for this alleged shooting on the French lines. I have denied it in the New York Herald and through the papers several times. I think I had bet- ter tell yon what really happened. There was a man by the name of Eobert Dunn, of the New York Evening Post. He and I went into the German trenches. We went in at night, while there was not anrthing doing at all. In the back of the trenches, the back lines, a German officer who was with us took a gun from a soldier, and he said, " Do you want to see how it works ? " It would not have occurred to my mind to shoot at anyone. I am entirely opposed to anything of that kind. Besides, I have lived in France myself, and have more affection for the French than any other people except my own people. Dunn wrote an article in the Evening Post, in which he called himself and me Franc-tireurs in the trenches; he said that the Germans had offered us a gun to shoot through a peephole, and he took a gun, and he did not take it until after I, who was a pacifist — and that is not true, by the way — until I had shot it. He knew my aversion to such things, and, as a matter of fact, neither of us shot. I do not know how many times this thing must be contradicted, but I am perfectly willing to keep on contradict- ing it. Mr. Humes. That is one of the harrowing tales of the war corre- spondents that is mere fiction? Mr. Eeed. Pure fiction, as far as I am concerned. Mr. Humes. It is some satisfaction to get a light on war corre- spondents. Mr. Eeed. Dunn is now, by the way, or was until recently, an ensign in the American Navy, attached to the French squadron, so that it could not have been very serious. Senator Wolcott. Would you favor for this country the national- ization of industry and of land by direct action, after the fashion of the Soviet government in Eussia? Mr. Eeed. Why, I would favor the nationalization of industry and land but the question of method is only a question of whether it can 588 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. be done anyway. It never crosses my mind that it can not be done perfectly peaceably. I really still hold to the theory that when the majority of the people want that in this country they will get it. Senator Wolcott. I think they will, too, by constitutional legal methods. Mr. Eeed. Any way that they can get it. Senator Wolcott. If they do not get it that way, if it does not come that way, it is proof that they do not M'ant it. Mr. Eeed. It may be or it may not. Senator Wolcott. Do you not think it would be so ? Mr. Eeed. I do not laiow, when such reforms come up, whether our Government is flexible enough to permit them. Senator Wolcott. We would have to change our Constitution be- fore that could be done. Mr. Eeed. We do not have to change our Constitution before "we send troops in Eussia without a declaration of war. Senator Wolcott. No ; we have the right to do that. Mr. Eeed. We do not have to change our Constitution in the phrase which says that the right of free speech shall not be abridged and annulled ; yet it is both abridged and annulled. Senator Wolcott. I do not know where it is. If you mean by the right of free speech that you can preach violence and incendiarism, it ought to be annulled. Mr. Eeed. Why is not the Constitution changed ? Senator Wolcott. That is not free speech. What I was interested to know is this : Whether or not you think that the taking over of private property without compensation to the owner — the so-called nationalization of property — should be tolerated in this country except through the ordinary legal processes provided by our form of government, our Constitution, and our laws. Mr. Eeed. Well, as I was trying to answer you, I do not know how flexible our laws are and how flexible our Constitution is, and how flexible our form of government is. It never has been brought to a real test whether it is possible to follow the will of the people in such a gigantic result. I do not see any reason why it should not be. Senator Wolcott. Have you in the course of your trips over the country advocated the nationalization of industry and land in this country as the Eussian soviet has done ? Mr. Eeed. No; I have said I thought it was a very good thing, and I point to the effect of it in Eussia. I do not think, you know, that these changes have come about in all countries in exactly the same form. They will come about according to the different condi- tions that exist in all countries, but I think they will come about in all countries. That is why, when I talk of the Eussian soviet govern- ment, although I think it is a great thing, and what they are doing is a great thing. I do not mean to say that I think it will come about like that in Germany, or that it will come about that way here. It will come about the way they work to make reforms. It will probably come about here the way the people want it. What that way will be I can not prophesy. The only thing I can say is that I would like to see labor organized ; I would like to see the people educated ui true economics, and to understand their interests and class interests, and taught to work together. BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 589 Mr. Humes. Mr. Reed, on February 8, 1918, you were quoted in Clinstiania, in an interview, as follows [reading] : Conditions in the United States liave long ago become worse than in Russia. Freedom of speech has been suppressed and every vestige of democracy has dis- appeared. Mr. Reed. That is slightly exaggerated. I denied it the next day. Have you my denial ? Mr. Humes. No. You were so quoted, and you denied it? Mr. Reed. It was a misquotation. Mr. Humes. Mr. Reed, did you or did you not make the statement at a meeting in Yonkers last Sunday that there were 3,000,000 rifles in the hands of 3,000,000 Avorkmen in Russia, and that very shortly there would be 3,000,000 rifles in the hands of 3,000,000 workingmen in the United States, to be used in the same manner that they "were being used in Russia ? Mr. Reed. I never said such a thing in my life. How foolish ! How could you get 3,000,000 rifles into the hands of 3,000,000 Ameri- can workingmen? Mr. Humes. What was the reference that you made to rifles in that speech ? Mr. Reed. I did not make any reference to rifles. I remember de- scribing conditions in Russia, and I said that there were 3,000,000 men in Russia organized against the imperialists of the world in defense of the socialist fatherland. Mr. Humes. And you have no recollection Mr. Reed. I could not say anything, Mr. Humes, of that sort. How could 3,000,000 rifles be gotten into the hands of 3,000,000 American workmen for that purpose? That is impossible. Mr. Humes. Well, did you intend to give the impression to the people there that that was a condition or a proposition to be attained in this country ? Mr. Reed. I do not understand how I could have given any such impression. If you could quote my words, I could tell you whether I said them or not. Mr. Humes. Did you intend by anything that you said to convey any such impression ? Mr. Reed. No. I may be misunderstood sometimes, because I am always talking to the working class, urging them to enforce their rights. Mr. Humes. What led you to discuss the arming of workingmen? Mr. Reed. In this country ? Mr. Humes. Yes. Mr. Reed. I never did at all. I have not the slightest recollection of saying anything about arming .the workmen in this country. Mr" Humes. Then there was no connection between your reference to the conditions in Russia and this country ? Mr. Reed. I was talking about the general conditions in Russia, and talking about the Russian situation. I can not understand how that impression could be formed. It would never have crossed my mind to say anything about a revolutionary army of 3,000,000 American workmen now, because they are fairly contented. Mr. Humes. Have you in any of your public speeches advocated a revolution in the United States similar to the revolution in Russia? 590 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ilr. Reed. I have always advocated a revolution in the United States. Mr. Humes. You are in favor of a revolution in the United States? Mr. Eeed. Eevolution does not necessarily mean a revolution by force. By revolution I mean a profound social change. I do not know how it is to be attained. Mr. Humes. Do you not in your speeches \ea\e the impression with your audience that you are talking about a revolution of force? Mr. Eeed. Possibly. Senator Wolcott. Do -\ou mean to leave that impression with them? Mr. Eeed. Xo. My point is this, that the will of the people will be done; the will of the great majority of the people will be done. Senator Wolcott. That is a sound point. Mr. Eeed. That is my point, and if the will of the great majority is not done at the time of the American revolution, it will be done by law ; it will be done by some other way, that is all. Senator "Wolcott. Do you not know, Mr. Eeed, that the use of the word " revolution " in the ordinary meaning carries the idea of force, arms, and conflict? , Mr. Eeed. Well, as a matter of fact, unfortunately, all these pro- found social changes have been accompanied by force. There is not one that has not. Senator Wolcott. Have you not used the word " revolution " to mean force? Mr. Eeed. No ; I did not put it in there. It has been associated with that word. Senator Wolcott. Do you not think, as a matter of fairness to your- self, as well as to your auditors, that you ought to explain that you do not mean force when you use the word " revolution ? " Mr. Eeed. I mean, of course, that the will of the people will be done, and if it can not be done by law it will be done by force. It never has been done peaceably, but I do not see why it should not. I still do not see why it is not. As a matter of fact, if I am saying anything which is contrary to law, I am willing to answer for it. Senator Wolcott. I am speaking only of the matter of fair dealing with the American people and with yourself in the use of a word which carries with it the idea of armed force, whether or not, if you do not intend that idea, you ought not to make it plain in your addresses. Mr. Eeed. I have talked a good deal since the espionage act, and have done a good deal of explaining. I am a revolutionary socialist. But, as a matter of fact, in order to make myself perfectly clear, I have done a good deal of explaining in my talks around the country. Senator Wolcott. By "revolutionary socialism," I suppose you mean the overthrow of the present — what you call capitalistic — sys- tem, by peaceable means ? Mr. Eeed. By peaceable means, by all means, if possible. Senator Wolcott. Yes. Mr. Eeed. By peaceable means, and never before the mass of the people is ready for it. It is impossible. I mean Senator Wolcott. You have a perfect right to advocate that, so far as I can see. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 591 Mr. Reed. And I just want to state that anybody \Yho advocates the overthrow of the majority by the minority is nothing but a criminal, because it means an abortive lot of bloodshed without any object at all, killing for no purpose. It means Napoleon after the French Revolution and everything else. Mr. Httmes. In 1918 you spoke in a hall on East Fifth Street, did you not? Mr. Reed. When was this? Mr. Humes. June 20. In June, sometime. Mr. Reed. I probably did; yes. Mr. Humes. Did you not at that time make, and have you not since made, a statement that you were organizing the Bolshevik movement in America so systematically that you would not be sur- prised to see something doing before the year's end, especially in New York City, Rochester, Detroit, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Buffalo and Cleveland? Mr. Reed. No, sir; I never did. Mr. Humes. The Foreign League was already in existence? Mr. Rejed. No, sir. Mr. Humes. You never said that? Mr. Reed. No. I can not imagine myself saying these things. Such things are impossible. Mr. Humes. You were selected by the Bolshevik government as their consul general in New York, were you not ? Mr. Reed. By the soviet government. Mr. Humes. Yes. You were appointed by Trotzky, I believe ? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. Are you at this time, and have you been since you returned to this country, an official representative of the Bolshevik government in the country? ' Mr. Reed. No. Mr. Humes. Are you in communication with the officers of the Bolshevik government? Mr. Reed. Why, I see people that are going abroad sometimes, and I send notes by them. Mr. Humes. Yoii keep in communication with them through vol- unteer couriers ? Mr. Reed. No ; I have never heard a word, personally, from any of the soviet commissars in the time that I have been here, and I have never sent them a word. Mr. Humes. Do yoii communicate with them through intermedi- aries ? Mr. Reed. No. You mean to say, am I trying to evade your ques- tion? No; I am not trying to evade your question. I have sent word to Reinstein several times and I have sent word to Vorovsky, who is in Sweden. I have never sent any other. That has been done through the State Department. Mr. Humes. You have never understaken to represent the soviet government officially in this country? Mr. Reed. No ; I never have. Mr. Humes. I think that is all. Senator Wolcott. You say you never have represented them? Mr. Reed. No. 592 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Wolcott. Are you aware of anyone representing that gov- ernment in this country? Mr. Reed. Xo ; I am not. Albert Williams has an authorization to open a soviet information bureau. Senator "Wolcott. Do you know who bears the expense of the con- ducting of that bureau ? Mr. Reed. It never has been opened. Senator Wolcott. It never has been opened ? Mr. Reed. No money for it. Senator Wolcott. Do you know whether or not there are any rep- resentatives in this country who receive money for the purpose of explaining the soviet government to the people of this country? Mr. Reed. No. I do not ; except Nuorteva says that he has received some money that was released by the State Department to him, part of which came from the soviet government. Senator Wolcott. Are you confining the question to money that comes from Russia? Do you know of anybody who is receiving money in this country from any source — Russian, American, or what not — for the purpose of spreading information about the Soviet government ? Mr. Reed. Why, when I go to a meeting I usually charge them a fee, because I have got to live, and that is my only source of income. I wanted to open a bureau of information, and I went around to some people in New York from whom I thought I might get some money — and I think I may get some money yet — ^to do it. You know there are some wealthy women in New York who have nothing to do with their money except something like that. [Laughter.] For ex- ample, we publish pamphlets, you know. I will got to a fellow that I know, or one or two fellows, and borrow a thousand dollars and get a translation of a Russian pamphlet of a Russian decree, or some- thing of that sort, and publish it, and then we send it all over the United States through the mails and the express and sell it and get the money back from it, and what we get back we put into another pamphlet. But there are no funds back of this business here. There is no money in talking about Russia in this country. Mr. Htjmes. Except as you may be able to persuade some of the bourgeois ladies of New York to assist in the enterprise? Mr. Reed. Well, that does not go to me, anyway. Mr. Humes. No ; it does not go to you ; but for the expense of it? Mr. Reed. Yes. Senator Wolcott. Well, compensation for telling the truth about Russia ; I believe that is the phrase that describes your talk, is it not? Mr. Reed. Yes. Senator Wolcott. That is derived solely and entirely from the fees that you get when you attend meetings — these various meetings; is that correct? Mr. Reed. Yes ; or sometimes I write an article and get sometmng for it. . ■ J I,' Senator Wolcott. A meeting in Yonkers was just mentioned this last week. Mr. Htjmes. Last Sunday night. Senator Wolcott. Under whose auspices was that held? Mr. Reed. That was the local socialist party — an open meeting. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 593 Senator Wolcott. They paid you for coming over? Mr. Eeed. Yes. Senator Wolcott. Were you at the meeting here in Washington ? Mr. Keed. No, I was not. I am considered too disreputable to attend these big meetings. They do not ask me. Senator Wolcott. Why do they consider you disreputable? Mr. Eeed. I have been indicted a couple of times. I was indicted quite a long time ago for saying some of the same things that Senator Johnson has since said in the Senate, so that they do not press the indictment. Senator Wolcott. Are the charges, the indictments, still pending ? Mr. Eeed. Yes ; one is in New York. I would be very glad to be tried on that, by the way. I have told the district attorney so, but he does not seem to be anxious. Senator Wolcott. I am going to ask the stenographer to read a question which I asked you awhSe ago. (The stenographer i^ead the question referred to, as follows:) Senator WorxoTT. By " revolutionary socialism," I suppose you mean the (ivprthrow of the present — what you call c;ipitalistic — system, by peaceable means? Senator Wolcott. Now, I want to insert in that question the word "legal," so that it will read, " by peaceable and legal means." Mr. Eeed. I want to insert in my answer that law is made by people with power always. The Eussian soviet government has got laws. It has got 41 volumes of law, some of which I have got here. A contract that is carried out there is carried out by law, and I want to say that really this does not go to the heart of the question, be- cause the law of one generation is not the law of another generation. The Connecticut blue laws which arfe now on the statute books of that State, and which forbid a man to kiss his wife on Sunday, are not in force. Senator Wolcott. Will you please explain to me ? I do not know where your logic is leading you, but tell me how that comes in here ? Mr. Eeed. I want to say that I suppose what you are trying to Senator Wolcott. Your mental agility is, I confess, too much for me. I do not know where you are going to. Mr. Eeed. I do not mean, Senator Wolcott, to be too mentally agile. What I was trying to say is to say that I think when you put in that word " legal " Senator Wolcott. I mean, by it, according to the forms of present law. Mr. Eeed. According to the forms of present law ? Not necessarily the forms of present law, because laws are changed according to the temper of people. Senator Wolcott. You see, you change the laws, under the form of the present law so understood. Mr. Eeed. You change the forms of present law, too. Senator Wolcott. Yes ; any new law is a change, but that is legal. Mr. Eeed. All that I am trying to lay down is that the form of the laws and the form of tlie government correspond to the age and the temper of the people and contemporary conditions, just as govern- ment expresses the will of the mass of the people — at least democratic government ought to. 85723—19 38 594 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. HuarEs. You believe that those laws must be enacted in the manner prescribed by the fundamental law ? Mr. Eeed. Which is the fundamental law ? Mr. HuJiEs. The Constitution. Mr. Reed. I think the Constitution can be changed, too. Senator AVolcott. For instance, our present law in this country is that a man's property can not be taken away from him by anybody except by the State, and then just compensation must be paid. Mt. Eeed. What about the distillers ? Senator Wolcott. Just a minute. There you are, tlying oil on something that I do not want to discuss at all. That is a diilerent issue. You can ask the Supreme Court about that. The distilleries are there. Their property is not taken away from them. They have all still got their distilleries. Their license is taken away from them. Under the Constitution a man's property can not be taken away from him except by the State, and then it must be upon due compensa- tion. Let us imagine that the people of this countiw could tiike over all property of the individual, giving him no compensation for it. and they could do it, peaceably — that is to say, without violence. Do you think they should do it without first having changed the Constitution and determined the legal form of the guaranties with which private property should be safeguarded ? Let mfe put it this way: With that clause in the Constitution re- maining there, do you think that it would be at all proper for thfr people of this country to take over the property without tendering to the owners anything else ? Mr. Eeed. It seems to me that that is a hypothetical question, but I will try to answer it. It seems to me that before the people of the United States would do any such 'thing they would pass an amend- ment to the Constitution. Senator Wolcott. That is what they should do. Mr. Eeed. Abolish the Constitution. Senator Wolcott. That is what they should do. Do you not think that is what they ought to do ? Mr. Eeed. Of course, what they ought to do — they ought to accom- plish a thing with the least change and with the least upsetting of order and with the least inconvenience to people. I think that if the great majority of the people of this country wanted to national- ize land and industry, or something of that sort, and the Constitution for some reason — the machinery of government — could not yield to it, they ought to do it anyway ; but I think — of course, I am always in favor of doing it by law when possible. It is only when it is impossible to do it that I am in favor of other methods. Mr. Htjmes. Is there any change in the form of the Government of the United States that can not be accomplished by peaceful means by a majority of the people under the Constitution? Mr. Eeed. I do not know. That is something that I am waiting to see. Mr. Humes. You do not know ? Mr. Eeed. I do not know. Mr. Htjmes. You know how the Constitution can be amended, do- you? Mr. Eeed. Yes. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 595 Mr. Humes. Do you know of any amendment that could not be made to the Constitution in the manner provided for by its terms ? Mr. Eeed. Well, of course, it is a great deal a matter of the ma- chinery — the machinery of government. Mr. Humes. Is it not a matter of votes and not a matter of ma- chinery ? Mr. Reed. Votes are a matter of the machinei'y of government. They are a part of the machinery of government. Of course, I am in favor of doing it ; I have tried to tell you people that I do not know what is going to come up in the future. We have got a new world on our shoulders now, and certainly the fathers who drafted the Constitution could not foresee the industrial age, and we can not foresee Avhat is going to follow this; wp can not foresee the society which is to follow. The British Government seems to be foreseeing it a little, but we do not here. Senator Wolcott. There is one fundamental idea that the found- ers of this Government had, and that is that when a man worked and acquired property he should be protected in the possession of it, and that right is guaranteed in the Constitution. Now, the soviet gov- ernment runs directly counter to that fundamental idea. Mr. Reed. The only reason it does is to carry out that fundamental idea. Senator Wolcott. It destroys that idea. It takes away private ownership. Mr. Reed. It takes away private ownership but not private use. What is the difference ? The reason for private ownership is so that a man may use, without being hindered, the results of his labor. That is what the soviet government stands for. Senator Wolcott. The soviet government wants to substitute private use for private ownership? Is that all there is to it? Let a man use forever what he has got instead of owning it ? Mr. Reed. What is the difference? I do not understand what is the advantage in his owning anything? Senator Wolcott. Because he always has it and can use it again. Mr. Reed. He can always have the use of it under the soviet gov- ernment. Mr. Humes. Until he gets old. Mr. Reed. A workingman. You are talking about a workingman now. Until he grows old ; yes. Mr. Humes. Then he becomes a pensioner of the state ? Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. He is never allowed to accumulate anything for him- self. Mr. Reed. He can accumulate all he pleases during his lifetime. Mr. Humes. He can not accumulate a home. Mr. Reed. He is provided with a home. He can accumulate a home and build it just the way he pleases, under the soviet government. Mr. Humes. On the charity estate. Mr. Reed. Charity? I do not know whether it is charity or not. It is his government. Charity means that somebody else gives some- thing to you ; but it is his government. Mj. Humes. He is on the charity of the state. When he becomes too old to work he has acquired no right to live on that land dur- 596 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. in^ his declining years, has he ? But as soon as he is physically un- able to work he must give up the land. Mr. Eeed. Not exactly. ilr. Humes. As soon as he becomes unable to work, himself, he is taken off the land that he has lived on all his life and becomes a pensioner of the state, and his land is turned over to some one else* is not that correct? Mr. Reed. What is the idea of being taken off the land? What does an old man want to live on a lot of land for? He is not taken out of his house. He can pass his declining ^-ears in the same house which lie has lived in. Mr. Humes. If his house happens to .be on the land he is workiiio;, he is taken off of it, is he not? Mr. Eeed. Yes, sir; that is provided for in the land decrees and regulations, that a man who lives and works in a house lives in the house to his death if he pleases. Mr. Humes. Can you show me that passage ? Mr. Reed. I do not think that I have the land decrees here. Mr. Humes. I have. ]\rr. Reed (continuing). But I have all of them at home. Have you the.volost land regulations? ilr. Humes. I do not know what you call them, but I have what purports to be a copy of the land regulations. Mr. Reed. How many of them are there ? Senator Wolcott. You say that over thei'e a man can not employ anybody to work for him i , Mr. Reed. Xot on the farms. Senator Wolcott. The American farmer would like that. ]\Ir. Reed. He is allowed as much land as he himself can work, and what the soviet government does is to try to encourage the farmers to farm in communes ; say, 30 farmers take 30 allotments of land and work it in common; and they are supplied with grain and with agri- cultural machinery and cverj'thing that is needed, including agricul- tural instruction. I have here a little decree about the organization, of course, in running tractors. Senator Wolcott. Suppose that a man does not work along all right with the rest ; what do they do, put him out ? Mr. Reed. The Russian peasants ha^e been working in communes on the Russian landed estates for some centuries, and they know how to manage themselves. If a man does not work in Soviet Russia, he can not eat; that is all there is to that. If there is some reason why he can not work, he is pensioned; but if he will not work Senator Wolcot't. That puts me in mind of where we had a coni- anunistic system over here, at Jamestown. Two or three did all the work, and the rest of the bunch were loafers, and Capt. John Smith had to get a gun and go after them. Mr. Reed. It may be true that the Americans are not educated enough so that they will work when they are given an honorable chance, but the Russian people have been doing it for 10 centuries. When the landlord wanted his lands cultivated or his crops brought in, he gave the contract to the village, and he gave 50 per cent of the earnings to the commune which undertook the job. He made a con- tract with the commune, and the whole village moved out and divided BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 597 the stuff commonly. The reason for that is, I suppose, that the Rus- sian people have been used to communal life for centuries, and capi- talistic competition has not come between man and man the way it has here. Senator Wolcott. It was not very elevating for them there. Mr. Reed. That was not what kept them down. Senator Wolcott. At all events it did not bring them up. ]\Ir. Reed. I am not sure that it did not. They are pretty high. Senator Wolcott. The Russian peasant is said to be very illiterate. Mr. Reed. He may be very illiterate. Mr. HtTMES. First, we agree that no hired labor is allowed for the purpose of cultivation of the land. We agree on that, do we not 'I Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. I call your attention to the following paragraphs in this land decree [reading] : In the event of a temporary iiic;ii)aci(y of a iiienilier of a county community (luring the course of two years the connnunity sliall be bound to render hiiii assistance during this peri(«l of time liy cultivating his land. Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. In other words, the law compels the neighbors of the man who is physically incapacitated to cultivate his land. [Reading :] Agriculturists who in consequence of old age oi- sickness will have lost the possibility of cultivating their land shall lose the right to use it, and they shall receive instead a pension from the State. Mr. Reed. Yes. Mr. Humes. Is there anything there that gives a man a right to use the house in which he lives, and yet deprives him of the right to u.se the land? Mr. Reed. Let me see what that is you have. Mr. Humes (handing paper to the witness). It is marked there. It starts at the bottom of that page and is marked with blue pencil. Mr. Reed (after examining pamphlet). Yes. I translated this de- cree, by the way. This is our own publication. Mr. Humes. Yes. I am glad to know that it is official. [Laughter.] Mr. Reed. Oh, well, you have got here only — now, I want to point out, in the first place, this [reading] : For guidance during the realization of the great lajid reforms till their final resolution by the constituent assembly sgalk serke, the following peasant nakaz (instrviction), drawn up on the basis of 1242 local peasant nakazes liy the editor's office of the Izvestiju of the All-Russia Soviet of peasant delegates and published In Xo. 88 of said Izvestija (Petrograd, No. 88, Aug. 19, 1917). Mr. Humes. Yes. Mr. Reed. In other woi'ds, these instructions, the ones that you havti been reading, were drawn up on the basis of 242 villages which filed instructions, and this Avas drawn up by the soviet peasants' head- quarters as the peasants desire. Mr. Humes. That shows, then, what elasticity there is in the official documents. Mr. Reed. Let me get along Mr. Humes. Answer my question first, and then exj^lain. That is the rule, as I read it, of the soviet government, is it not ? Mr. Reed. Yes. 598 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGA^TDA. Mr. Humes. That where a man becomes sick for two years and is unable to work, his land must be worked. His neighbors hare got to AA'ork it for him gratuitously ? Mr. Eeed. Yes. He is not thrown out in the street. Mr. Hu3tES. When he becomes too old or from sickness is unable to work his land, he is deprived of the right of use of the land and becomes a pensioner of the state? Mr. Eeed. Yes. Mr. Humes. That is correct, is it ? Mr. Reed. That is correct. Mr. HuaiES. Then, as a matter of fact, all persons in old age or in sickness become dependents of the state, do they not? Mr. Eeed. It is there stated. Mr. Humes. Yes ; and they are not permited to acquire a homestead in which they can live in their declining years? ]Mr. Reed. If you had had here the other decrees, you know there are eight decrees on the land. One is the instructions for the volost land committee. Another is the regulations for the emissaries to the provinces; and so on. You will find that there is a general de- cree of commissars of social welfare which ranges from charitable institutions to commissars of agriculture, which settles this question of dwelling places of people who have reached their declining years and become pensioners of the state. Mr. Humes. Where do they live? Mr. Eeed. They live in their homesteads where they have worked. ' Mr. Humes. Do they have a title to the homestead? Mr. Eeed. When they die, it passes into — you see, just let me ex- plain about the land. Land is very valuable in Eussia. It is very valuable for raising crops. The people need lots of food. It is necessary to raise food ; and a lot of people need work and a lot of people need land. All the land is pooled in the general land fund. When a man becomes of age, which is about 16, he is encouraged to go into a commune with others. When he becomes incapacitated permanently for work he withdraws, and his land goes into a general land pool. He occupies his homestead, and it is on the basis of the present houses that are now erected. Mr. Humes. Is this homestead on the land that he works? Mr. Eeed. Homesteads are in villages and not on the land, in Eussia. The mir has disappeared. The peasant village is a piece of land. It is set apart from the farm land. It has been always, and is at the present time. Mr. Humes. Is private property recognized in the homesteads? Mr. Eeed. While a man is alive he has a right to live in his house. Senator Wolcott. Is not that subject to the decision of the com- missar, according to that regulation ? Mr. Eeed. In what subject to the decision of the commissar? • Senator Wolcott. Whether he shall live in the house? Mr. Eeed. No ; it is not. There is nothing about that at all here. Senator Wolcott. I thought there was a commissar there. Just read that again. Mr. Eeed (reading) : Agriculturists wlio in ciiusequeiifp of old age or sickness will have lost the possibility of cultivating their land shall lose the right to use it, and they shall x-eceive instead a pension from the state. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 599 Senator Wolcott. You read something in addition to that, did you not? Mr. Eeed (continuing reading) : In the event of a temporary incapacity of a member of a county community during the course of two years the community shall be bound to render him Assistance during this period of time by cultivating his land. Mr. Humes. Did you not read further there ? Mr. Reed. No ; I did not, here. Mr. Humes. I thought you read another clause there besides the one that I read. Mr. Reed. No; I am telling you about this. When a man dies after living in his house all his life, which he is allowed to do, and also when he withdraws from the land itself, if his land is withdrawn from him, he has a right to designate the person who shall have the £rst preference to that land. He has a right also, on dying, to desig- nate the person who shall have the right to live in his house, as a matter of fact. He has a right to designate the man who shall have first preference, you see. Mr. Humes. That is on the theory, then, that the population in these mirs, or whatever you call them by the new name, is always to continue the same, and that an increase in the population is not to make necessary a redistribution of this land, is it not ? Mr. Reed. No ; not at all. The land is redistributed all the time. The portions of the land probably vary, and when a man becomes incapacitated his land goes back for general distribution again into the land fund. Mr. Humes. If he can designate the successor in possession of that land, how can there be a redistribution or a reproportioning of the land? If there is a reproportioning, he is designating the man in possession, is he? Mr. Reed. What difference does it make whether he designates the man to occupy the land or not ? The land is allotted on the basis of the amount that a man can work. If he can not work, he can not be designated as the possessor of this land. Mr. Humes. But I am not answering a question as to why; I am asking you how it is physically possible to permit the possessor to designate his successor on that land when the natural fluctuations in population will make necessary a reapportioning? Mr. Reed. A reapportionment of the land he can not, of course, go against. For example, when the country becomes so congested as you indicate, that a lot of people will be forced, and the population of the villages is bigger than the land will support, there are several ex- pedients. For instance, emigration is provided for in the first decree. Mr. Humes. Emigration is required ? Mr. Reed. It is not required. Mr. Humes. For instance, when there is not sufiicient land for all the population, the state requires them to emigrate to some other locality ? Mr. Reed. If you will notice that decree, you will find that the right of emigration is accorded. The Russian people have always been travelers, and they want to emigrate. That is how Siberia was settled. 600 BOLSHEviJi PKOPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. But it deprives him of the right to select the location of his own home, because if there is not sufficient land there the state can say ^vhere he shall live? Mr. Reed. What is the difference ? The Middle West is congested, and a lot of people are forced off the land into the cities. Senator Wolcott. Who is going to say who shall leave? Mr. Reed. The community. Senator Wolcott. Would not that be a fine state of affairs ? Mr. Reed. Why? Senator Wolcott. I live in Dover, Del., and suppose it got to be such a state of affairs, the population was such, that the community would come to me and say. " Here, Wolcott, you will have to get out. It is up to you to move." Mr. Reed. Well? Senator Wolcott. Well, there would be trouble. They would have to carry me out. Mr. HuJtES. Mr. Reed, suppose you lived in one of those villages, and j^ou had a couple of sons — say they were twins Mr. Reed. Thank you, sir. Mr. HrJtES. And they had reached the age of 16 years on a given date, what disposition would the state make of those sons? If you were physically able to work your own farm, and the time had come for them to have an allotment, and the land in that community had all been apportioned among the people who were living there, what would become of your sons ? Mr. Reed. Well, suppose my sons wanted to stay there and work? Of course, the office of the all-Russian peasant Soviets in Petrograd and the minister of agriculture keep a regular diagram of the population of the agricultural distiicts and the distribution of land. When the distribution or apportionment of land becomes so small that a man can not support himself on it in comfort, there are various different methods employed. For example, it is like our Middle West, where the land has all been taken up. and the people move further out. When the land all gets taken up in a certain village, the people move in Russia. There is another thing, and that is the fact that intensive cultiva- tion, which has never been known in Russia, is being taught now, so the land is practically for the next 100 years inexhaustible, and there is no necessity for talking about the reapportionment or allotment except in a case where a man can not work his allotment. Senator 0\'erman. They are undertaking to build a permanent state ? Mr. Reed. Yes. Senator Overmax. The answer would be this, would it not, that either your sons would have to leave their parents and go into some other locality, or else you and your whole family, if you wanted to live in the same community, in the same village, and continue a reasonable family relation with your children, would have to all leave that locality and go into some other locality in order that those boys of yours could get an allotment of land and earn a livelihood; is not that the answer ? ]\Ir. Reed. That is true in the United States at the present day. I could not get a job in my own home town. I had to go to New York. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 601 Senator Wolcott. It was a voluntary going on your part, however ? Mr. Eeed. There has been no compulsion in the present emigration in Eussia. Mr. 'Humes. Would it be possible to carry that scheme out without ultimately having compulsory emigration? Mr. Eeed. I do not know about that. If there is a question of com- pulsion, I should think that the way it would probably work out would be this, that instead of every peasant having to work 11 hours a clay cultivating his lot, they would reduce the hours of labor on a particular allotment, and that sort of thing, if it was in a socialist state. They are reducing the hours of industrial labor in England to six now. Senator Wolcott. Mr. Eeed, do.you want to say anything further for this record ? Mr. Eeed. I just want to say that I think it is extremely impor- tant that the people who have been in Eussia recently and are in favor of the Soviet government be called. I do not mean socialists, but people like Frank Keddie, and people like Eaymond Eobins, who have been in very close connection with it. Senator WoLcoi''r. Mr. Thompson? Mr. Eeed. I should think Col. Thompson would be a very valuable witness. Senator Wolcott. Do you laiow where he is? Mr. Eeed. I do not know where he is now. I think Maj. Allen Wardwell would be a peach. He is a Wall Street lawyer, the head of the Eed Cross, and is a fair man. Maj. Thomas Thacher would be a good one. Then, Jerome B. Davis, one of the heads of the Y. M. C. A. in Eussia, would be a very good witness, since he spent almost all of his time around the village districts. Mr. Humes. Will you furnish the committee with copies of trans- lations of all of these decrets that have been referred to, in order that we can complete the record ? I want to make sure that we have all of these main regulations and all of these other decrets. I do not want to put them in piecemeal. Mr. Eeed. I think I can get you all of that. I am not quite sure whether I can get you all the decrets that I have seen. Mr. Humes. You can furnish us with all that you can. Mr. Eeed. It is quite a long job and quite an expensive job. Mr. Humes. I want to know if you have translations of them. Mr. Eeed. I have translations of some, but not all of them. I have a great many of them. Mr. Humes. If you have not extra copies that you can furnish us in the translation, if you will let us have the original, so that we can translate them, we will return the original to you. Mr. Eeed. All right, I think I can get you all that. I will have to go back to New York and gather it up in different places. Mr. Humes. Will you do that and send them to me? Mr. Eeed. Yes. Senator Wolcott. There is nothing further you want to say ? Mr. Eeed. No. (Tliereupon, at 5.65 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee adjourned until Saturday, February 22, 1919, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.) BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 22, 1919. United States Senate, Subcommittee of the Comjiittee on the Judiciaey, Washington, D. C. The subcommittee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., pursuant to adjourn- ment, in Eoom 226, Senate Office Building, Senator Lee S. Overman presiding. Present: Senators Overman (chairman) and Wolcott. Senator Overman. The subcommittee will come to order. Call the first witness. TESTIMONY OF MR. ALBEET RHYS WILLIAMS. (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) Mr. Humes. Where do you reside? Mr. Williams. New York City. Mr. Humes. Where were you born ? Mr. Williams. Greenwich, Ohio. Mr. Humes. What is your business ? Mr. Williams. Lecturer and writer. Mr. Humes. Were you formerly in the ministry ? Mr. Williams. I was ; yes. Mr. Humes. An ordained minister? Mr. Williams. Yes. Mr. Humes. In what denomination? Mr. Williams. Congregational. Senator Overman. You claim to be a minister, do you not? Mr. Williams. No. Senator Wolcott. Have you severed your connection with the ministry ? Mr. Williams. Yes. Senator Overman. How did you go about severing it; did you resign ? Mr. Williams. No. Perhaps that is a premature statement. My name, I suppose, still appears upon the book. I left the active ministry about three years ago. Senator Overman. How did you quit them? Did you write a let- ter saying you resigned, or did you just quit? Mr. Williams. I just left the church. * Senator Overman. Just left the ministry without any notification at all? Mr. Williams. Yes. 603 604 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ilr. Humes. You mean you left the ministry. You do not mean you left the church, I assume ? Did you sever your connection with the church? Mr. Williams. No ; I am still a member of the church, and I sup- pose still a member of the ministerial association. Mr. Hr JiEs. Have you traveled in Europe or been in Europe since the European war started in 1914? Mr. WiLLJAMS. I -n-as in Paris at the opening of the great war in 1914. Mr. Humes. You vere there when the war started, were you? INIr. Williams. Yes. Mr. Humes. How long did you stay there? Mr. Williams. About three months. Mr. Humes. Did you go back to the United States then? Mr. Williams. Yes. ilr. Humes. How long did vou remain in the United States ( Uv. Williams. Until May." 1917. Mr. Humes. Where did you go then ? jNIr. Williams. Direct to Russia. Mr. Humes. By what route? Mr. '\A'iLLiAMs. From Stockholm into Petrograd. Mr. Humes. Did j^ou go there on any mission, or just as a lecturer and writer? ^Ir. Williams. I went there with credentials from the New York Evening Post. ilr. Humes. "\'\Tien did you arrive in Russia ? Mr. Williams. About June. 1915." ]\Ir. Humes. How long did you remain in Russia ? Mr. Williams. I'ntil Ju]v."l918. Mr. PIuMES. July. 1918 ? " Mr. Williams. Yes. Mr. Humes. You were there approximately a year, then? j\Ir. Williajis. About 14 months. Mr. Humes. If you arrived there on the 15th of June and left in July, that would be 13 months, would it not ? Mr. AVillia:\is. Yes. Senator Ovekmax. You left in Julv, 1918 ? Mr. Williams. 1918. Mr. Humes. Mr. Williams, will you just state to the committee the condition that you found existing in Russia when you arriveri there ? Mr. Williams. I arrived during the Kerensky regime. Tlint was the time of the calling of the first all-Russian congress of Soviets in Petrograd. I stayed in Petrograd about two or three months, getting a little acquainted with the language and the situation, and after that I made a journey to Moscow, and then down into the Uln-aine. After that I went down the Volga ; after that I went into Finland ; after that I went to the Russian front near Riga ; then I mad'.' several trips to the villages ; and after that came out over the Trans- Siberian Railway. ' Mr. Humes. During this trip was that traveling all done during the Kerensky regime '. b BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 605 Air. WiLLiAjxs. No ; the first of that trip I covered most of Eussia during the Kerensky regime, and then covered some places «\ er again during the Soviet regime. Mr. Humes. Just tell us what you saw and what the situation Avas during the Kerensky regime, so as to distinguish between the things that you saAv and observed during that regime and during the Bolsheviki regime. First confine yourself to the Kerensky regime. Mr. Williams. On leaving Petrograd for Moscow, first having spent the time in Petrograd, I saw the general increasing disorganiza- tion that was going on as the result of the great war and as the result, perhaps, of the change through the first revolution. When I made the trip out into the country I saw the disorganization still further going on. For example, I went out into what is called the Tamboj government, and I saw the peasants there taking over the land of their oivn free will. In some cases they were burning hay ricks, and sometimes manor houses, and the sky was very often reddened by these burnings. ]\Ir. Humes. Where is this Tamboj government? Mr. Williams. It is off near the Volga section. Mr. Humes. Near the Volga? Mr. AA'iLLiAMs. Yes. Then I was in some factories, and I saw the effect of the workingmen taking over the factories, in a great many cases making very violent demands for higher and higher wages, in some cases putting out the managers and technicians and botching the machinery and spoiling a great deal of the goods, and then Avhen I was at the front I saw the bad condition among the soldiery. I saw, for example, a great many soldiers barefooted, walking in the freezing mud. I saw a squad of soldiers, for example, falling upon a turnip field and devouring it, because they had no other food ; I saw horses that had fallen dead for the lack of food. Mr. Humes. When was it that you were at the front? Was it early in your trip, or was it toward the close of the Kerensl^^ regime? Mr. WiLLiA:sts. I was at the Eiga front about the middle of Sep- tember, 1917, just after the Germans had made their advance through Eiga. Mr. Humes. Is the weather there such that it commences to freeze ' in September ? Mr. Williams. Yes ; it is probably like it is here now. Mr. Humes. All right, proceed. Mr. Williams. And so I saw that general condition of disintegra- tion going on in Eussia on all sides. At the same time I saw in the soviet organizations that were springing up, those that had already sprung up and additional ones that were all the time being organized, a discussion going on as to what the people wanted, and, first of all, I found in some of the — — Senator Overman. Do you speak Eussian? Mr. Williams. I do not boast of speaking very much of it, but I can get along ordinarily, and can read ordinary newspapers, because I spent most of my time with the soldiers in the army, the peasants in the villages, and the workmen in the factories. I am measurably equipped with' a speaking knowledge of Eussian, although I was not adept at it at that particular time. Senator Wolcott. Did you have any difficulty understanding it? 606 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ]Mr. Williams. Certainly. I have a great deal of difficulty in under- standing when anything is spoken at all rapidly, but an ordinary conversation I can pick up at the present time, anyhow. Senator OvERarA>'. Do the different provinces all have the same language, or different languages^ Mr. Williams. I suppose that about 160,000,000 Eussians under- stand the native Eussian language, so ordinarily a man can past through all sections with the one language. Senator Overjiax. Did you ever study the language? "What lan- guage is it really like, or is it similar to any other? Mr. "Williams. I do not know. I am not much of a linguist. I studied Hebrew for about a year, and perhaps having studied Hebrew a year the Eussian was not so very difficult to me. One of the striking facts that you found was that in every soviet that one went to, of which there are probably tens of thousands in Eussia, one could always ask for the American, and there was always some man there who had been in America, who came out from the soviet and w;is able to talk in English. Senator Overman. You say the language is more like the Hebrew? Mr. "\"\'iLLiAJis. It is like Hebrew in this respect, it is verv dif- ficult. Senator Oversiax. do ahead. ]\Ir. Williams. In these soviet organizations there were becoming- stronger and stronger during the summer of 1917; there were certain very clear ideas that began to come out in the minds of people, cer- tain formulated demands. We have an individualistic idea in regard to the land, but in Eussia there is a communistic idea ; also there is a difference of feel- ing about the confiscation of land. It is remarkable that 19 out of 20 of all the Eussian people believe that the land never belonged rightfully to the great landlords, and so the cry had always been " The land is God's and the people's." In these Soviets this old land cry became formulated in a very definite slogan, which was the first slogan of the Soviets, " Land to the people." Senator Overman. Do you agree with what has been stated here that the Eussian people generally, 85 per cent of them, are ignorant like children, and do not know anything except what their rights are. or what they claim to be their rights ? Mr. Williams. I think that probably not more than 50 per cent of the Eussian people can read and write, but I think that the Eussian people have an extraordinary ability to think, and so I was very niucli impressed by the contact that I hacl in the villages with their natural soil wisdom. Senator Overman. I understand that only 85 per cent of them can read and write, and I just wanted to know Avhether you agreed with that statement. Mr. Williams. Many say 60 or 70 per cent, but since the revolution occurred there have been a great number of people who have learned to read and write, and I was very much impressed when I talked to the peasants Senator Oveeman. They must be a remarkable people to learn in a year to read and write. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 607 Mr. Williams. I think a great many of them have learned to read or write in the army. Of those Russians who can not read at the present time, I think it is not an exaggeration to say that, with the tens of thousands of newspapers that have been opened up, the average Russian has as many solid articles upon economics and poli- tics, sociology and business management read to him, even in the country areas, as the average American. I think that is not an ex- aggerated statement. But apart from their ability to read and write, I happen to know, for example, a certain man who was a Bolshevik agitator in a little village along the Volga. I heard him speak to a group of peasants for five hours. He was a trusted man, because he was the son of a teacher, and he talked to these peasants, as I say, for fire hours with terrific energy. He told me afterwards that he had made, as far as he could see, not a single convert. These old peasants were very judicious in their attitude. They took all of his words, and then they sat down for almost a month at their different meetings talking these things over. At the end of three months this man came back, and he found, as he told me, that probably a third of the peasants had assimilated a great many of the views that he had given them, and they had rejected a great many of the views that he had given them. They had discarded the ideas that they regarded as be- ing nonapplicable to their position, and they had retained those that were applicable to them and which commended themselves to their judgment. I was much struck by their ability to keep from, being carried away by any large and wonderful tales that we came to them, as foreigners, to tell. For instance, as a guest in the house of Ivan Ivanoff, in Spasskoe, I remember boasting about some of the wonders of America. To these peasants, 60 miles back from the Volga, I told about our great slsyscrapers towering up to the clouds; of our subAvays, with trains tearing through the night; of our great white ways, boiling with people. I tried to impress them with our wonderful steel mills, with a thousand triphammers stamping away day and night. They listened intenselj^ We thought we very much impressed them, but that night we heard Ivan saying to his wife, "Poor fellows. No Avon- der they are pale. Just to think of being brought up in a country like that." In other words, in Russia, you have probably heard befoie this com- mittee, that the people are not entirely mesmerized and obsessed with American institutions. It is not entirely that they fear the things we call evil, but they also fear some of the things that we call good. They take a different attitude. They are not obsessed really by the idea of production. They have not the American idea of spending their energies in getting a living, but rather in living. So even if Russia does not build up ihdustrially like America in a very short time, I do not think it is going to hurt the Russian people, because they are not inchned to put the same valuations upon certain aspects of life that we put upon certain aspects of life. They regard our life here, for example, where we have slums and palaces where we have the extremely poor and the extremely rich, and where we have a bitter class war, with a hatred existing between the possessors and the nonpossessors, as most undesirable. They do not like it at all. I was talking, for example, with a man who happens 608 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. to be a social revolutionist. I asked him why ^Aere they not content to stop with their first revolution and be satisfied A\ith making a coun- try lilve democratic America or democratic France or like England. He said this, " I have lived in England. I know that they have an East End in London and I loiow they have a West End. and I knoAv that you in America ha^■e an East Side in New Yorlt and I know that you have a Fifth Avenue." Then he said, " We did not go to our death in the mines and dungeons and out into the waste places of Siberia in order to make ,here in Russia a civilization which is going to have an East Side and a Fifth Avenue." In other words, there is a natural reaction against what they think are the injustices and the extremities of poverty and wealth which they have in every one of the western countries. For this I'eason they were not willing to make a revolution and stop it just where we sto]3 all our revolutions — on a political basis. They wanted to go through and make it into a social revolution. iMr. HuJiES. Toward the close of the Kerensky revolution there developed really a state of anarchy, did there not? Mr. Williams. As I said, it was because of this state of anarchy that the Bolshevik revolution found it possible to take over the government. The soldiers were throwing down their guns and marching away from the trenches. Y. M. C. A. men have told me that they did that where they never even heard the word Bolsheviki. It was the opera- tion of natural forces that were driving them. Senator Overman. What is the definition of the word '' Bolshe- viki"? Mv. Williams. I asked a Eussian what his definition of the word " Bolsheviki " was, and he said, " It is the shortest cut to socialism." May I just return to this other view? Senator Overman. Yes. Pardon me for interrupting you. I just wanted to know, for my own satisfaction, what the Russian definition of that word was. jNIr. WiLLiAJis. Will you picture the Russian soldiers in those con- ditions that everybody admits they were in, and then imagine the representative of the Kerensky government going to one of these soldiers and saying, " Glorious Russian soldier, now for the glory of great Russia we will fight until we take Constantinople." And they said, " We do not want Constantinople. We want peace." And then those Russian soldiers began to think " This Russian government of Kerensky is an imperialistic government. It wants to take other people's land. We do not want other people to take, our land, nor are we willing to fight in order to take other people's land." They would say, " our government seems to be just as imperialistic as Ger- many itself." Then there began to come into the minds of some of the soldiers the idea that the allies themselves had imperialistic de- signs of- taking land and other spoils, as the result of the war. The same way with the workman. He was seized with this desire. The Kerensky government would not give him what he wanted, which was some control over the factories. Now, I want you to go back into the psychology of the Eussian worker's mind, if possible, and remember that he Wtis told that he was a free man. " A free man," he reasoned " has some control oyer his life. My life I spend, for the largest part, in the factories. BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. 609 Therefore, I think I ought to have some control over the factories." Therefore, when the Kerensky government gave him no control over the factories, he, in a very anarchistic way, seized the factories, in many cases, and the result was the destruction of machinery and materials, such as has been told about in those cases. It was the same way with the land. The peasants were taking it over, willy nilly, as they pleased, and the result was confusion, and an added disloca- tion of industry and political life. In answer to these demands, of land for the peasants, peace for the people, and factories for the workers, the Kerensky government, with its young and inexperienced ministers, could do nothing at all but say. " Wait until the end of the war," and then after that they said " Wait until the Constituent Assembly ; " and month after month passed by, and month by month gi-ew the unrest and the anger of the people, and the people said, " If this weak thing that calls itself a government can do nothing at all, we ourselves are going to do some- thing." We saw this great upheaval of the people desiring to possess themselves of peace and land and factories ; what iii reality they were doing was bringing Russia to the verge' of chaos and anarchy and ruin. I do not think that is an exaggerated picture. What did the Kerensky government do ? It sent to them the best people it had, the " grandfather " and the " grandmother " of the people, Tschaikowsky and Breshkovsky, a great and noble spirit. But the government had lost all control over the people and the people's organizations. As Tschaikowsky said, the people had swept way on past him in this great, elemental movement. Then there were two great leaders of the Mensheviki, Tseretelli and Tscheidze. Tseretelli had just come from his long years' imprisonment in Siberia. He had been the leader of the labor party in the Duma. Both of them had been trusted by the people. They were very elo- quent men. They were asked to unloose their eloquence upon the masses, and put a stop to what the Kerensky government said was the insane demands of the masses. They might just as well have un- lossed their eloquence at a volcano. Then the Kerensky government issued orders and resolutions. They might as well have issued their orders and resolutions to an earthquake. When the government sent out detachments to put down uprisings these detachments used to go over to the side of the people. And here, in that condition of disin- tegration and dislocation of industry, you had the Kerensky govern- ment, with the ministers falling in and out of ofEce, and the allies trying to keep it alive by hyperdemiic injections of threats and promises ; but it availed nothing. The Kerensky government in a situation which demanded the strength of a giant was as weak and helpless as a babe. Senator Overman. Did you know Kerensky? Mr. Williams. No; I did not know Kerensky very well. I just met him incidentally. I had no chance to get acquainted with him. That was the condition. Senator, that prevailed in September and in October of 1917. I do not pretend to have anything but a viewpoint — a partisan viewpoint, if you please^ — of the masses of the people with whom I spent my time, just as I believe that the viewpoint that has been generally expressed in this committee is a partisan viewpoint of the 85723—19 39 610 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. people who have lived with those who have lost out in the revolution because the revolution is a very unfortunate affair for some people, as it is fortunate for others. There are winners and losers — just like in everything else — and the losers suffer a great deal. I am not so de- void of all imagination as not to think of the sufferings of the people who have lived in the roof garden of life and have suddenly had to step out and go to work ; and of the sufferings also of people who have been forcibly dispossessed of their property. I know something of the conditions of those people, and I know something of their suffering and dismay. This has been reflected in America by almost every person that has been allowed to speak, because these people have lived with that class — the losers — who are full of anger and re- sentment, embitterment and rancor. But, on the other hand, you must know that as there are people who lose out in a revolution there are others who win ; and the vast masses of the people are winners in this revolution, and they are just as happy as the others are sad, and they hail the revolution just as gloriousl}' and joyfuUj^ as the others condemn it. I am presenting the partisan viewpoint of the masses of the people toward the revolution and the soviet and the present leaders. Senator Overman. So you say these men are, speaking from a par- tisan standpoint, against the Bolsheviki, as you are, speaking from a partisan standpoint, for them; is that the idea? Mr. Williams. I think that is a fair statement of the fact. It is simply because I know that every situation has two aspects, and be- cause one side has presented its side and has had every opportunity to px'esent fully its side in the newspapers, on the public forum, in committees, etc., that I have not felt called upon to present that side of the situation. I have felt called upon, out of my own feelings toward the great masses of the people, to try to articulate their view- point and their attitude toward the revolution. Senator Wolcott. You would not place — I must call her the " grandmother " of the revolution because I do not remember the name — in the group of partisans against the Bolsheviki, against the soviet that you spoke of, would you? Mr. WiLLiAJis. I would prefer not to dwell upon her psychology and her mind, because I have every reverence, as everybody has, for her past. I know this, that Madam Breshkovsky loved the peasants and loved Kerensky. Kerenslvy was the idol of her heart. The Soviets came and took the peasants away from her, and then went out and took the government away from Kerensky ; and I know that as a human being she can not help being prejudiced by that situation. Senator Wolcott. She undoubtedly speaks as a person who has intense sympathy with the Russian people. That is an element in her psychological make-up. Mr. Williams. Yes ; it is. Senator Wolcott. She does not speak from the viewpoint of one who has lived in ease and comfort, surrounded with luxuries? Mr. Williams. No; but this is a very striking point. In the soviet government — I refuse to say that there is a Bolshevist gov- ernment in Russia ; there is a soviet government, which is composed of several political parties, and the latest news that we have is that the present soviet government has not only been joined by Maxim BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 611 Gorky, the great leader, but also by Martoff, the Menshevik leader, and by men like Tchernoff, the great leader of the social revolu- tionists, who have gone over to the soviet government and are work- ing in cooperation with Lenine. In the soviet government you will find in every soviet that four out of five of the members of the soviet are young men, 35 or 40 years of age, perhaps 9 out of 10 of them. They are all enthusiasts for this new order of society which they are trying to create, while it happens that most of the opponents of the Soviets are very old revolutionists ; some of them over 70 years of age. These old revolutionary leaders, who are the heroes of American life and who have done great work in the past, are, after all, the leaders of the past, while the leaders of the present are the younger and more vital forces-. I think it is true to state that in the Soviets four out of five of the members are under 35 or 40 years of age. and that they are the leaders of the future. Now, if I may, let me return to the situation in 1917, with these peasants seizing the estates and the workers seizing the factories and the soldiers deserting from the trenches. In this situation there was a group of people that seemed to understand what was going on in Eussia, a group of people who had a set of brains ; a group of people who understood that for a spontaneous, elemental, deep- running, radical movement only a deep-running, radical program would suffice; a group of people who had the confidence of the masses, and therefore knew how to take these elemental energies and direct them to some constructive purpose; a group of people who understood the people, and therefore to whom the people would listen. And now, in this case, I refer not to the Soviet but to the party of the Bolsheviks. It is not fair to say that they understood the people or that they had the confidence of the people, because they were the people. The Bolshevik party was made up primarily of^ members of the working classes. It did not have as many educated or members of the intelligentsia as the Menshevik party or the So- cialist-revolutionary party. It was primarily the party of the working class, and naturally the working people understood what the working people wanted. The Bolsheviks spoke the people's lan- guages, they thought the people's thoughts, and could articulate the people's ideas. It happens that the Bolshevik party has among them some of the intelligentsia. We know of such characters here as Lenine and Trotzky, and there are others like Lunacharsky, Kollontay. Tchitche- rin, etc. There was this group of the intelligentsia in this party. They spoke a great many languages, some of therh having written any- where from 3 to 20 volumes on various subjects. Thej^ adjudged the situation and adjusted themselves to it. These people had a very sublime faith in the great natural impulses and movement of the people. I think that is a fundamental distinction between the man who is a democrat and the man who is not a democrat. The true democrat is one who trusts in the hearts of the people: that even though at times they are very crass and crude, in general their im- pulses are directed toward the right goal. I think the Bolshevik intelligentsia in particular had a sublime faith in the people. They believed literally that " the emancipation of the vast masses of work- 612 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ine from Moscow to Vladivostok. This fact was printed in hundreds of Russian papers. The credentials were presented to the eon.sul at Yhidiovstok and have passed through the hands of the Naval Intelli- gence Bureau, the Department of State, and the Department Mr. Williams. Up to the time I left there was a fair circulation' of all papers. There were generally, say, three anti-Bolshevik papers^ to one Bolshevik paper. I would like to present to the committee, for example, a complete- file of a certain paper which was most vitrolic, most venomous,- against the Bolsheviks, cartooning and lampooning them in a way that would never be allowed here at different times. I have a coni- plete file of that paper from November 7 to the time I left. This papei- never made any revelation of military plans and never called for the- violent overturn of the soviet government, and never called for any conspiracies or assassinations of government officials. Because it was making no attacks upon the Bolshevik government, it was not suppressed. I think up to the time I left Russia only those papers were suppressed that were calling for the overthrow of the soviet government or because they were revealing certain military plots and plans. In Vladivostok, just before I left, before the soviet was over- turned, there were six papers there, four of them violently anti- soviet and two of them pro-soviet. I understand also that during' the time that the counter-revolution raised its head, with the allies boring in from Archangel and the Germans threatening from the south, and the Cossacks were coming up from the Don and the Czecho-Slovaks coming out of Siberia, there was a much more drastic suppression of the press than I have indicated at the present time. Mr. Humes. Yes. The soviet government reserved the right to that option up to the time you left, to suppress any paper that advocated the violent overthrow of the government ? Mr. Williams. I think so. Mr. HxjMES. And you recognized that as a proper position for the soviet government to take, did you? " Mr. Williams. I recognize that as a proper position for any g■o^•- ernment to take. Mr. Humes. And you feel that any government has a right to re- strict and suppress the press that undertakes to secure the violent overthrow of the government itself, do you not ? Mr. Williams. Yes ; of course, I do. Mr. Humes. Yes. Mr. Williams. Only I hope that even the soviet government, as our government over here, will ultimately be so sure of itself and so' certain that it is functioning for the benefit of all humanity that it will have so few enemies that it will give absolutely free speech and free play for everybody. Mr. Humes. But you mean free play in the political sense, as dis- tinguished from what we might call direct action or force or violence? Mr. Williams. Yes. Only what I have seen. Mr. Humes, is this.. I would like to have a government so strongly entrenched in the affections of the people and a system of life making it so happy for the vast majority of the people that anyone who asked for a violent overthrow of the government would be simply laughed aside as a fool. Mr. Humes. But that situation has not been attained under the soviet government in Russia up to this time? Mr. Williams. Up to this time it has not been ; no. ^34 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Overman. Would you be in favor of an act of Congress to stop the publication and sending through the mails of propaganda advocating the overthrow of this Government? jNIr. WiLLiAJis. I would like to think, Senator Overman, of our own country as being free from violent eruption. It is the richest country in the world, with such vast opportunities, with a groat edu- cated class to work upon our industrial problems ; I would like to have things so arranged that we should feel so sure of oursehes thai in tlii-; country if anyone talked like that he would seem to the niajoritv of the people to be talking sheer nonsense. In other words, the people ■of the country would feel that there was so much justice, so much fair play, that they themselves would take care of anyone who talked that way by laughing him down. Moreover, Senator Overman and mem- Iters of this committee, I am as anxious, and I know that most of the people who call themselves agitators are as anxious, that we should avoid violence and bloodshed and that we should have an orderly transformation into a more decent order of society, as you gentlemen here are. We believe that one should heed the symptoms of a bad industrial disease. The red flag is a symptom, or a violent speech from this or that source is a symptom, or a sudden outbreak here oi' there is a symptom. Instead of suppressing the symptoms we ought to get down to the root of the disease and try to eradicate it by secur- ing the economic values which are at the base of all these things. If you believe that men have common sanity and common sense and decency I think you would trust to the good will and good nature and to the ultimate solution of the problem in those ways. Senator Overman. What effect would carrying the red flag have upon the masses of the people? Mr. Williams. What effect does the red flag have upon the masses •of the people ? Senator Overman. Yes. Mr. Williams. At the present time, with the connotation the red flag carries in the minds of the people, that has been stirred up on account of the agitation, it has a very exciting effect upon them. The average credulous citizen who walks along the street wants to tear down the flag because it is a symbol to him of everything that is violent and evil and vicious. Senator Overman. You think that in thife country it is a symbol ■of everything that is evil ? Mr. Williams. On the contrary. Now, the black flag is supposed to be the flag of anarchy. The red flag is the international flag of all the socialists of all the world. I saw it carried in parades in Norway. It is carried in parades all over England : and in France even before the armistice was signed. I understand that a number of soldiers walked out and met President Wilson carrying the red flag. It is the flag of everything Senator Overman. You have not answered my question. I under- stood you to say that in this country it is a symbol of anarchy. Mr. Williams. Yes ; in the minds of certain people who have cer- tain views on it, it does symbolize anarchy and violence, and there- fore they are against it. But it is not an emblem of anarchy. The emblem of anarchy is always a black flag. The emblem of the socialists is a red flag. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 635 Senator Over.max. Is it not the emblem of the I. W. W.? Mr. Williams. No, sir ; it is not the emblem of the I. W. W. as I understand it, though I am not certain here. I understand that it is primarily the emblem of the socialists, as it is the emblem of the international. Senator Overman. Is it not the emblem of the socialist, and is it not an emblem of protest ? Mr. Williams. No; because the Irish protest with a green flag against their oppression, and the anarchists protest with a black flag; and still further, the Harvard boys sometimes protest with a red flag. Senator Wolcoit. The fact of the matter is that the red flag is made use of by people with diiferent kinds of views, and to one who knows its significance does not have any definite significance at all times, but it gathers its significance from the nature of the views of the man or of the crowd carrying it ; is not that the fact ? Mr. Williams. Yes, of course. Senator Wolcott. You can conceive of one man carrying a red flag who would be, say, a socialist, and who believed in accomplish- ing his end by means of a change in constitutional law. Another man might be carrying a red flag who believed in bringing about his ideal order by revolution ; and another man might be carrying a red flag who had them both in mind ? Mr. Williams. Yes, and another man might be just a labor unionist or a Harvard man. Senator Wolcott. Yes. It does not have a fixed meaning. It de- pends on who carries it and what fixed idea the man has in mind who is carrying it. Mr. Williams. Yes; but one thing we ought to bear in mind in considering any legislation at the present time, and I do not think it makes any diiference whether the red flag is suppressed in this country by legislation or not, so far as the forward move of the great labor socialist movement is concerned. It has been tried before. For instance, Germany suppressed the red flag, as you know, for a time, and it found out that instead of suppressing the feelings that the red flag symbolized, the feeling of antagonism toward the pres- ent order of society, it just made those people more hot in their feel- ing against society. They found other symbols. They used for a while a red flower ; and then the ladies wore red petticoats, and they would lift the petticoat xery slightl}^ as they crossed the street before the Prussian gendarmes standing on the street cornei-s. I do not think there is any significance in suppressing those symbols, and particularly when all of Russia and Europe has the right to carry the red flag, and they regard it as an important right. Senator AVolcott. 1 think you are right, and I ex[)ressed that view the other day in a committee meeting. The suppression of a symbol amounts to nothing. Mr. HtjMES. Take those measures by which changes in the form of o-o\'ernment can be accomplished ; for instance, they might be ac- complished in the lawful, or, what we might call the political way, pro- vided for by the terms of the fundamental law, which makes it pos- sible for the people — the majority of the people — to have just that form of crovernment which they desire. 636 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. The other method might be by the use of force and violence and the forcible overthrow of the government. As I understand it 'your position is that all changes in the form of the government should, vs^here it is possible under existing laws, be effected in a peaceable way and in the political way provided for by the fundamental law. Is that correct ? Mr. Williams. That is a correct statement; yes, Major. Mr. Humes. Do you approve of organizations which seek to ac- complish the changes in form that they advocate, by force, as distin- guished from politics? Mr. Williams. Of course not; and may I just make this state- ment Mr. Humes. I would like to have you answer the question, and then make, any explanation you please. Mr. Williams. All right. State your question again. Mr. Humes. Do you approve of organizations whose purpose it is to secure the changes in the form of government which they seek, liy force, and at the same time which refuse to participate in political affairs in an effort to secure the changes which they want, in the peaceful method provided by the fundamental laAv ? Mr. Williams. I will state, categoricallj^, I do not approve; and then I will make this statement. Mr. Humes. All right. Mr. Williams. One organization of society in Russia, the soviet- organization, grew up inside of the other, old state organization, natu- rally and automatically. You remember one time Carlyle was told about Margaret Fuller, the American transcendentalist, who was^ very much worried about the way the uniAei'.se was running in generaltt- Feeling rather good one day, in a large, generous attitude, she said, '■ I accept the universe." Carlyle said, " Gad ! she'd better ! " Now, I accept the universe the way it functions. I would have liked to have seen the revolution come in Russia in an orderly fashion. I know now that it could not have happened in any other way. There were certain great, inherent economic forces Mr. Humes. Just Avait a minute. I think you are beside the ques- tion. Under the fundamental law, if there was such a thing under the old regime in Russia, it was not possible for the people to change their form of government in a legal way, was it? Mr. Williams. No, sir. Mr. Humes. Therefore the situation as it existed in Russia was entirely different from the situation as it existed in the United States ; is not that true ? Mr. Williams. Quite right. Mr. Humes. In this country a majority of the people, through legal action, can secure just the form of government that they want, can they not ? Mr. Williams. Yes ; but I have got to modify that, again, before you go ahead. Mr. Humes. Well, then, an organization in this country which seeks a change in the form of government, but at the same tune refuses to participate in elections, refused to participate in political BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 637 affairs in an effort to secure those changes in form of government, is seeking forcible overthrow of the government, is it not ? Mr. Williams. Yes. Mr. Humes. And must be disapproved of under your theory of proper procedure in matters of that kind ? Mr. Williams. Yes. The only thing I would say in addition to that, Major, is this, that if there are large numbers of people who refrain from voting and build up on the inside a great industrial organization — I do not see any signs of it at all here in this country as yet — anything that is similai' to the soviet organizations, federa- tions, or groupings of workers, the time may come when, just as a snake sheds its skin and leaves it behind and goes on with a new skin, so we may peacefully pass into a new social order. It is perfectly possible — I do not think it is imminent Mr. Humes. If those Soviets grew up until they controlled the majority of the people in this country, one election would accomplish the changes that they were seeking, would it not ? Mr. Williams. Precisely. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that the organization known as the I. W. W. is an organization that refuses to participate in political affairs, declines to vote in elections, and advocates change in the form of government which they contend for, by forcible means ? Mr. Williams. I am not familiar enough with the I. W. W. to know. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that you, in appealing for support in this country, have appealed for support for the I. W. W. as well as for other organizations ? Mr. Williams. I do not thinlc that has been true; no. As a mat- ter of fact, I have not. Mr. Humes. Have you ever, in your public utterances, opposed the methods described by the I. W. W. ? Mr. Williams. I think, as far as I understand the I. W. W., that it is for a passive resistance rather than a forcible overthrow of the government; I have not spent much time upon it, and, therefore, I have made ho attempt at all — — Mr. Humes. Do you approve, or have you advocated in your public writings or speeches, the use of sabotage in this country ? Mr. Williams. Of course. Major, you probably have copies of all those writings and speeches, and you can tell me as well as I can tell you. Mr. Humes. You know what your sentiments are on the subject? Mr. Wllliams. Well, I have not, then. I have not. Mr. Humes. Do you approve of sabotage? Mr. Williams. No. You have to define all those terms — what is sabotage, and all like that. What is commonly known as sabotage I do not approve. Mr. Humes. The sense I am using it in is the sense in which it is. used by the I. W. W., and you are familiar with their use of the term, I presume. Mr. Williams. Well, enlarge on it a little. Mr. Humes. The destruction of property; the interference with production; the interfering with the successful operation of ma- chinery. 638 BOLSHE^^K propaganda. INIr. WiLLiA-Ms. Many things in reference to that perhaps von ,lis. appro\e — things I do not approve or disapprove. I do not disiip- prove of a hurricane or a volcano, or of the Soviets in Russia. I know that tho.se are inevitable tilings. They are elemental things- tremendous thiniis. If you accept the universe, you have got to accept those things with it. In the same way I wish for orderly political development in Amer- ica. I only know that if those things happen, it is not for me to a]iproA-e or disapprove of them, and if anything like that should ever happen in any way. the thing to do would be to try to guide it into constructive ways. ^lay I simply answer this, ^lajor ^ Mr. HvJtES. In your public utterances, do yon take the position that the end justifies the means? Mr. AViLLiAjis. No; I have ncAei' taken that position. Mr. HujrKs. Is not that the policy of the soviet government in Kussia '. Mr. WiLLiAJis. No : of course not. Thex- have tried to use the most decent and the most humane and the most kindly means. These emi- nent gentlemen of the Eed Cross, I have heard, have stated with the greatest anger their feelings of bitterness against the so\iet officials for their laxness. because tliey did not take an iron grip and did not clean out in a more merciless fashion the enemies of the soviet gov- ernment. Mr. Humes. Have not the leaders of the soviet government taken the position that the end justifies the means ? Mr. Williajms. Of course, every person has something of that sort in the back of his consciousness, but it is not the basis of soviet action. For example, no soviet official, if any other government should come into power, would believe in the assassination of the officials of the new government. They do not believe that the end, destruction of the old order, would justify assassination as a means. Mr. Humes. Do not certain groups in the United States, possibly before wliom you have been speaking, take the position that the end justifies the means? Mr. "\A'iLLiA3is. Yes. indeed, they do. I spoke to a group — the Philadelphia City Club — and spoke to another club, and there were some gentlemen there that I heard afterwards say," The only way you can solve that problem is by taking those fellows out and string- ing them up to a lamp-post." And we have in this country a great many people who believe that. The only solution of social problems is to deport them or blot them out bj' machine guns and by ruthless attitude violating all their constitutional rights. Those are the real anarchists in high places. Mr. Humes. Do not tlie I. AV. W.'s as an organization take the posi- tion that force is justified and preferable to peaceful and political methods of settling social questions? Mr. WiLLiAjrs. As I told you, Mr. Humes, I am answering you very honestly. I am not aware of a great deal of the I. W. W. propa- ganda. I understood that they believe more in large passive re- sistance, strikes, rather than in any forcible action against property. Mr. Hu:NrES. Is it not true that the more radical socialistic element in this country advocates the same thing? Jlr. WiLLiAjis. No man can be a member of the Socialist party who advocates violence and force against organized peaceful methods. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 639 Senator OvEiiMAN. I agree witli what you said about the red flags m many States, but if thei'e is an organization organized -for the pur- pose of overthrowing this Government by force, and their emblem is the red flag, ought that organization, organized for that purpose and ciUTying that flag to swerve people to that end, ought they to be allowed to carry it ? Mr. Williams. No; I should think not. I think you should specify in some way. Senator Over]\ia:n\ Then you think that no organization organ- ized for the purpose of overthrowing the Government by force and violence should be allowed to carry it? Mr. Williams. I think that is all right, only I think that the Sena- tors have got bigger and vastly more important tasks than legislating against these small and very uninfiuential organizations of this kind. They can be handled by other means. Senator Overmax. Is there not a possibility — I am not saying a probabilit}- — of an organization being formed being very strong, that might organize for that purpose and carry this flag for the purpose instead of the Stars and Stripes ? Mr. WiLLiAJis. I think the danger would not be in the flag, or whatever they carried, but the danger would be what they are carry- ing in their hearts. May I say in answer to Mr. Humes : He says that in this country we have effective political machinery so that the voters can register at the polls their choice, and when you h&\e 51 per cent of the people representing an idea they ha\'e a right to come into office and the right t(i dictate the form of government that we shall have. In other words, he says that we have a democracy. That is good in theory, but how does it work out in practice? As a matter of practice, it works out this waj^ : The people who have large sums of money have absolute control of the press, they have in a certain degree control of the pulpit, they have in a larger degree the control of legal utterances. In other words, public opinion is made not by a fair exchange of ideas upon the subject, but is made by a small group wlio wish to superim- pose upon the people certain facts and certain ideas and certain atti- tudes, and so it pours at times a perfect propaganda through all its organized channels and the result is that the people of the country do not have a fair chance to make up their minds. Now, I am quite in disagreement with the Senators here in this matter. I believe that if the people of America had a fair chance to understand what were the fundamental principles of socialism, the American people, even though they are reared under individualistic liaditions, and even though they have a very vigorous feeling of non- interference by the State (although they seem to ha\e easily accepted most of the State centralization these last years), nevertheless. I think the American people as a whole rather than continue the present orffiuiization of capitalistic society. I think if they had a fair view of the whole socialistic situation ancl imderstood that there was a possi- bility of organizing industry along cooperative lines, so that there would be no'excesses of wealth and poverty, and so that there vs^ould bo a fair return for everybody, so that we could preserve our cultural and our art and religious life in a fairer and freer form, I believe the vast maiority of the people of the country Avould call themselves ■^40 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Socialists. But because it is to the interest of a certain small group of people in this country, who have vested interests in large proper- ties and the preservation of the present order of society, those men use all their influence, all their organization, and all their inforitiii- tion so as to stir up the minds of the people so that when thev come to the polls they vote against socialism simply because they have not had a fair chance to understand what it is. So to that extent, to the extent that the Xew York Call has a certain repression put upon it by the Postmaster General, to that extent the socialists in New York feel that repression is put upon the expression of public opinion, while exi^ression in regard to public matters of the other great jom- nals is allowed absolute freedom. The tendency of the socialis-ts is this, if they say they will not allow us to have certain halls and a fair circulation of our papers, and will not allow us to express our ideas in public, they then see that there is no chance of doing things by regular orderly political methods, then they will have to use under- ground channels as that is the only way they can do anything, and then that goes over to wild and violent methods. That is the way you create violence in a country. It is because you repress a fair statement of public opinion on all these subjects. Senator Wolcott. Has the New York Call been restrained at all "because of any socialistic ideas it might have ? Has there ever been in this country an attempt on the part of the Government officials to suppress the promulgation of the socialist argument? Mr. WiLLiAJis. I think that the very fact that the New York Call at the present time is suppressed Senator Wolcott. It is not by reason of its advocacy of socialism? Mr. "Williams. I can not understand what other reason there is for its repression, because it happens to be a fairly mild paper. I can not understand why the Postmaster General continues to repress that paper. Senator Wolcott. I am not familiar with the New York Call nor the reasons for any restraint put upon it. In fact, I did not know there was any. I can not think that there is any restraint put upon any newspaper because it chooses to advocate the socialist principles. I can not think that. Mr. Williams. I think, Senator, that if you will examine into this case you will find that that is the truth. Senator Wolcott. I know the socialists can circulate pamphlets through the mails. They have been doing it for years and years. I think I received copies of the New York Call before I was elected to the Senate. For quite a time it was advocating socialism, and there was no question of it then. Mr. Williams. Oh, yes ; but there is not a real free expression of ideas now, though things are loosening up. Senator Wolcott. It can not be because of its advocacy of social- ism. It must be something else. Mr. Williams. I do not laiow of anything else that it could be. I do not think that any member of the organization would allow to appear in the paper any advocacy of violence. Whatever reason for the repression of the paper, to that extent you are creating a grudge. Senator Wolcott. You think that the people do not get to express their real views because their opinion is molded for them by a press BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 641 which you say is controlled by the capitalists? Now, what does that come to? It comes down to this, does it not, that nevertheless the people are expressing whatever views they entertain, so that they are getting what they want. From your point of view, they are laboring under false impressions, they are wrong in their view, but the fact is, however, that, though they are suffering under what you call wrongs, they do get an expression of their views. Mr. Williams. That is the reason that it is commonly heard said in the radical socialists' circles that we have in this country a govern- ment by a plutocracy and not by a democracy. I agree with your statement, and of course yovi can agree with this statement as being the attitude of the masses of the radical socialists and labor people. Senator Wolcott. Are you through, Mr. Humes? ^Ir. Humes. Yes, sir. Senatoi- Wolcott. I want to ask just a question or two. Your work since your return from Russia here has been only for the purpose, as I understand you, of explaining what the soviet government in Russia really is, as you undei'stand it, in the light of your information about it. You have not been writing and speaking for the purpose of advo- cating the adoption of the soviet governmBnt in this country, have you? Mr. WiLLiAiMS. No ; I have not. Senator Wolcott. There was an impression in my mind that you had been ; that your mission, if I may call it such for want of, perhaps, a more accurate word — you understand what I mean by applying the word, however — was to conduct a propaganda here which would be in advocacy of the adoption of this form of government that they have in Russia, the soviet government, and thereby carrying out the interna- tional propaganda of that government. Has my understanding been erroneous ? Mr. WiLLLA,Ms. It has been erroneous. My attitude toward the whole Russian soviet has been this. I do not know, nor do you know, whether it is a successful form of government. It has not had a fair chance, a fair trial. As I pointed out, it has had frightful handicaps under which it has been laboring, and I think the only thing that I have been asking in America is that we understand that it is not merely an orgy of chaos and destruction, but that it is an honest attempt to form a govei'nment upon a basis which the people over there seem to be loyal toward, and I ha\e been pleading in America simply that we give tiie chance to that government to work out its own destiny in its own way. It happens, as a matter of fact, that the soviet government, so far as it has originated in the minds of men, originated in the mind of a certain Daniel De Leon. That is what Lenine says. So far as it has been worked out in advance it has been worked out by an Ameri- can. The attitude we ought to take is a waiting attitude, and to see Avhether under it a better form, of life and culture and art and of dis- tribution of goods can be worked out than could be worked out over here. I have not the slightest doubt but that, as the Americans want all the best things in the world, if in the course of time the soviet government should prove to have certain advantages over our form of o-overnment, we would adopt that form of government, and that'we would incorporate those ideas over here, just as I am sure that in the experiment of the soviet government over there, to the extent S.572.S— 19 -11 & 642 BOLSHEAaK PROPAGANDA. that it has those weaknesses that you have pointed out in it, it will have to adopt whatever advantages we have under our particular system here. Senator Wolcott. You, however, do not advocate it for America at this time? Mr. Williams. Of course, absolutely not. Senator Wolcott. Because your view is that it is still in the ^tate uf experimentation ? Senator Oveejiax. Do you know of an association in this country, an organization, called " The Truth About Russia Committee"? Mr. Williams. I knew the organization, the Truth About Kussia Committee. It existed about three days. Senator Overman. It has gone? Mr. Wii>LiAMS. It has gone as a committee. It was simply a group of the liberal people of America who believed that one side of the truth only was being presented in America in reference to the soviet government, and they wanted to give an expression of the truth, of the neglected facts that had not been stated, the construc- tive facts of the soviet government. For example, even in this place here this morning there has been no time to tell you of what I saw of some of the constructive and creative work which the soviet government has done. Senator Overman. I thought we had gone into that in Senator Wolcotfs examination. You were a member of that committee? Mr. WilIjIAms. No: I was not a member. Senator Over jr an. What was the purpose of that committee? Mr. Williams. As I have stated, Senator Overman, it consisted of Frank Walsh, Jane Addams, and people of that caliber, who' thought that America was getting a one-sided presentation of the facts about Russia, and who wanted to make public the facts of Russia as they were seen by certain groups of people. Fifteen Amer- icans who could appear before you would give an entirely different version of what is happening in Russia from the version that has been given by the 10 or 15 men who have already appeared here. Senator Overman. So it was not organized for the purpose of get- ting this Government to adopt that sort of government here? Mr. Williams. Xo; not at all. Senator Overman. And you are not figuring on that sort of thing? Mr. Williajis. I am sure of it. None of my actions during th& last six months can be interpreted in that way. Senator Overman. I will just ask you if it is not true — I do not want to get it from the Department of Justice — I want to ask you: ^'s•hether you engaged in trying to get this sort of government started here ? Mr. Williams. Not at all. Senator Wolcott. Mr. Williams, what I am going to ask you is somewhat irrelevant to the inquiry. You can answer it or not, as you see fit. I am asking it out of curiosity more than anything else. If the soviet government worked out very satisfactorily in Russia, so that you were convinced that it is the best form of government yet invented by man, and thereupon you advocated it for the United States, you would be favorable to the idea that we should adopt it here after the fashion — in the manner — that the Russians adopted it; BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 643 that is to say, without pursuing our constitutional methods to get it — by confiscation, in other words ? Mr. Williams. Senator, that is such a hypothetical question. I know that by the time the soviet government demonstrates itself it will be a number of years, and by that time I shall have grown old and conservative and hardened in my attitude toward life, and prob- ably then I will jump at the idea of a new idea and beat it on the head, just like most people do when they reach a certain stage of life, and I might be such a conservative that I would take that atti- tude toward this new phenomenon then coming in our country. But I know this, every country will develop out of its economic conditions its own economic solution. This is the attitude of Lenine. Trotzky has a little more the idea of crusading; but Lenine says that every country must work out its problems as dictated by its own life and conditions. Here in this country we may not take a soviet form but a new form. We are changing even the form of our present Gov- ernment. Senator Wolcott. Let me suppose that the soviet government in Enssia is now demonstrated to be a most excellent thing, that we know it right to-day. I am going to take it that we know, right to-day. Would you, with your present views, favor simply taking away from everybody what we have, nationalizing everything, depriving eVerj'- one of individualistic ownership, without any manner of compen- sation at all, as the Russians did over there? Would you advocate that? Mr. Williams, No; my whole natural attitude is against such an idea as that. For example, I know that in the Civil War there were certain people who advocated redemption of the slaves by purchase. Instead of that there was confiscation of property. It was decided at that time that we must cut out the cancer of slavery from our life. We did not talk about confiscation in a grand manner; we confis- cated the slaves of the South ; and we were so dead sure Senator Wolcott. We did not confiscate ; we turned them loose. Mr. Williams. They have turned the landlords of Russia loose. Senator Wolcott. Slaves were not confiscated. Ownership was not kept by some one in the slaves. They were liberated. Mr. Williams. I mean the ownership or possession of property in those slaves was abolished. We were willing to go on fighting be- cause we deemed that our national destiny demanded it. The Rus- sian people — 19 out of 20 of the Russian people — agree that for the fulfillment of their national destiny the landlords' estates should not remain in the old hands and that they should be confiscated without compensation. All the political parties except the cadets hold that. Senator Wolcott. They also hold that view in respect to every- thing. Mr. Williams. No ; most political parties do not. It was the Bol- sheviki and the left social revolutionists that held that. Of course, 90 per cent of all property in Russia is landed property, and it is largely a land revolution, and so they felt that the fulfillment of their national destiny required confiscation of land. People felt — even some people who were members of the upper classes — that they must cut the cancer of landlordism out of their national life, and they went and did it. They did not stop until they had killed one in every 644 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. thousand of their popidation, but that ■\vas a less bloody revolution than the one we had here for the abolition of slavery. Senator Wolcott. Xow, I understand you to say that you do not faroi' that method. Mr. Williams. I am absolutely against such a method; and I know if things come to an iasue in this country the violence of the Russians will look lilce a tea party compared with the ^'iolence that we would have here. Therefore I liave been trying to put this thing over to the bourgeois classes and to get them to understand that one can not all the time sit on a volcano and pretend that everything is the best in life. I have been hoping against hope to crush some realities into the minds of the cultured educated classes, realities of the thing that is boiling and seething around them; hoping to crush it into their minds so that they will avoid an explosion and eruption, and work themselves to bring on a new order of society. I think that instead of the repression of free speech in this country, instead of the repression of newspapers that point to the dangers of this eruption, of this explosion, of this earthquake, we should in the most open fashion call for forums and free expression and free speech in every way. I have such absolute faith in the integrity, the common sense, and the honesty of the mass of the American people, in the fundamental idealism that survives even among the upper classes (which historically have never voluntarily resigned any of their privileges, but have always fought for them) still I have enough faith as an American in the American people so that all the crudities, barbarities, and insanities of the Russian people, not to mention their positive accomplishments, need not be necessary ; and if the facts in the case are put up to them, I have no shadow of doubt in my mind but that the American people can avoid all this destruction, all these insanities and brutaliticis, and work into a new social order. In fact, I believe that we could work for the new social order not by confisca- tion methods in a wholesale way, but we could do it by the installation of things little by little, bit by bit, or only as a matter of protest, which will reach the consciences of the privileged classes, the edu- cated classes, the ruling classes, in support of what is going on below, and if you can bring it about that this terrorism is not stirred up by a lot of demagogues and agitators — an agitator is a man who is agi- tated because something has come into his life that has made him mad, because he has had low wages, or been thumped on the head, or something of that sort. Senator Overman. To that end what do you think ought to be done ? What sort of a government ought we to have ? Mr. Williams. Senator, we have our present Government, and it is all right. I do not see anything to do except to follow our constitutional dictates as we have to ttie present time and wipe away some of the unconstitutional laws which violate the fundamental rights — the suppression of public opinion and of freedom of the press. Senator Overman. I would like to hear what we ought to do tn carry out your idea to stop this trouble which you say might come. Mr. Williams. Well, that would be formulating "a large program of reconstruction and putting it up to me. I should want to have a little time to think it over. You disarm me entirely. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 645 Senator Overman. You have been studying this question for years and are a very intelligent and educated man, and I would like to hear you. Senator Wolcott. Do you not think that when a man ad\ ocates taking away something, he ought to have something to jnit in its place? Mr. Williams. Absolutely. Otherwise he is a criminal and a danger to society. Senator Overman. I thought you had thought it over and knew how to stop this catacylsm from coming. Senator Wolcott. Do you think there is any cataclysm coming? Mr. Williams. I believe there is, and inevitably. It is like this. Senator. I believe as you study history you will see that slavery was once the condition of life under Avhich men lived, got their food and their clothes and their culture. It played its role in history, and then it gave way to feudalism. Feudalism born of the economic and social exigencies of the Middle Ages had its day, played its part in his- tory ; then by the so-called " industrial revolution " gave way to capitalism. Now, capitalism is the present order. Capitalism has built up these wonderful organizations of society. It has created and fertilized the whole world with its vast machinery of production. It has made its contribution to the constructive and creative Avork of' mankind, but now it has created so many problems for its own self, it has piled them up. It has now almost played out its mission in the progress of human society. I know that in some waj^ or other, in- evitably. Senators, there must be a transfer to a cooperative order of society. Now, that came by cataclysm in Russia. There was a con- vergence of conditions that made it inevitable. America may hope that this inevitable transfer to a more cooperative society will be made in such a way as to avoid such a cataclysm. The only way to avoid that is to give people every chance to express their attitude toward these problems. We ought to understand how in America now we have already begun to take on cooperative forms. You have heard the old slogan of government ownership, " let the Nation own the trusts." Then there are industrial oi'ganizations. No one can say how it is going to be done in America. The only thing I can state is that I believe in my heart of hearts that it will come freely and con- structively if we give each man a free Opportunity to discuss what he is doing, what is his grievance, and how he wants to remedy it. Senator Overman. Have you ever thought in your own mind as to Avhat the end will be ? Mr. Williams. A system of property -Avhere everything produced will not be for private profit but for the public goocl. Senator Overman. Do you think that if the State would take over personal and real property and own it, rather than individuals, that would be the better way ? Mr. WiLLiAnrs. No; under the organization of society which the socialists generally project for the future, it is a fundamental doc- trine that every man will have much more personal property than under the present situation. He wants production and distribution socialized. He does not want to socialize your hat or your c'oat. " Socialism," they say, " means dividing up." But you do not go to a school and divide it up, giving to one a brick and another a pencil 646 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. and another a book, but you cooperate in the use of the school. So in the socialist order of society we will cooperate in the use of the public parks, public schools, public transportation, and so on, and ex- tend those things into larger and larger realms. But we believe that just as soon as you stop this tendency to cooperation and direct all the industrial energies of the nation to the production of more and lucre goods for private profit, the ve'ry purpose of progress is de- feated. In the eternal conflicts between the workers demanding more wages and lower hours :ind the employers fighting them back, most of our national energy is spent between those two conflicting grollp^ not in producing goods but in fighting over the division of the products. Senator Oveemax. How about the farms in this country? ^Ir. "WiLLiAJis. Of course, I kno\v that in our own country — and Leninc, I iinderstand, has Avritten a treatise upon agricultural condi- tions in the Middle West, where there is an increasing tendency toward tenant holdings — we are raising up a class of people who are living off of the land without working on the land. Senator Wolcott. The tendency is just the other way in my State. The tenants have become owner's much more than they were 15 years ^go- Mr. WiLLiABrs. If that is true, the stability of the present form of government is guaranteed. Senator Wolcott. I know of a man in my country who started out as a hired hand on the farm b.y the year at $12 a month and board, who has been a working man all of his days and is a real horny- handed son of toil. By the sweat of his brow he worked and saved and finally got to own a farm, and now he is 55 years of age and he lives in comfortable circumstances. Now, any social order that would take awiiy those fruits of his labor I say would be abominable and fundamentally unjust. Mr. AA'iLLiAirs. Precisely so, and he would fight it, and all the other men of his kind would fight it, to the last tooth and the last ditch. Of course, the only real, sensible attitude upon the part of wise capi- talists is to preserve the present sjstcm. I do not want to preserve the present system. I ^^ant to transfer it into a socialist order, be- cause I think it is a better order. The men, however, who want to preserve the present system ought to give as large a number of people as possible some interest in preserving the present system by giving them larger property interests. Senator Overman. We have passed what is known as the farm loan act, which allows these tenants — and they have taken advantage of it in my State — to borrow money at a very low rate of interest to purchase this land; and, owning that land and having worked and paid for it, you would not want to take that land away from them and give it to the State or anybody else ? Mr. Williams. No ; but the only point, Senator, is that we some- times lull ourselves into security because we live among people who are secure and who have a great deal of the privileges of life. We do not realize what is happening below. I think in this country at the present time the number of people who are merely wage earners and have no interest in their job except to get their wages at the end of the week is increasing steadily. I lived for seven years in Boston, BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 647 •very intimately sharing my life with the working people, and I can saj this, that I wondered why half of the people continued living on under the conditions in which they were living. It was such unremit- ting drudgery, such relentless toil, always with the dread fear of want hanging over them, that I wondered why half of them did not go down to the docks and jump off. Senator Wolcott. I used to have such wonder when I lived in a small city, but my wonder did not carry me to the conclusion you reach. I wondered why they did not go out into the country, where they could live in decency and get good, wholesome fresh air and good food and wholesome surroundings instead of huddling in these alleys and such places in the cities. Mr. Williams. Now, the Senate should be interested in a great social question like that, a great agrarian problem like that, and talk it over, and try to find some way to make our country a more agri- cultural country and more productive in many ways. That would be one great contribution toward our own social welfare. But the point that I make is this, that the great social problems of life, the problem of bread and food, the problem of land, the problem of unemployment, all those vital problems we botch and try to patch up in some temporary fashion. We do not try to get at the roots of the matter. The reason why we do not get at the roots of the matter is that there are certain great interests in the country that are blind even to their own welfare, and they do not grasp the situation. They prevent it. Senator Overman. Have you got a statement that you could put in the record ? Mr. Williams. I could prepare a statement and let you have it. Senator Wolcxjtt. Which do you prefer, Mr. Williams — to resume your oral statement or to complete your statement in writing? Which is your preference ? Mr. Williams. Are you going to continue the hearing to-day ? Senator Wolcott. It is Saturday, Mr. Chairman, and I want to leave the city this afternoon to stay over Sunday, but I suggest that Mr. Williams pick his own course. If he wants to continue his oral' statement, he can come back at such a time as you indicate ; or if he wants to complete it by a written statement, he may do that. Mr. Williams. Well, perhaps at the request of the Senator, who asked me some pointed ■ questions about reconstruction, etc., it may be that he would be kind enough to let me come on some time next week. I would be glad to come back and make an oral statement, after having time to think these things OA^er, if it is agreeable to you. Senator Oat5eman. I want to accommodate you as far as I can. I think you have given a very interesting statement here, and I thought probably you could make a short statement. I do not want it too long, because it would encumber the record, but if you could make a statement and carry out that idea, it would have the same effect. Mr. Williams. Will you allow me to make an oral explanation with it at the same time ? Senator Overman. I want to close these hearings as soon as possible. The Senate is going to adjourn, as you know, on the 4th of March, but I do not see any possibility of getting in our report by that timt.,. Senator Wolcott. How long do you calculate it would take you ? 648 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. "Williams. To mak'.> my oral statement, yoii mean( Senator Wolcott. Yes; to make your statement. Mr. Williams. About a couple of hours. I would like to do it some time next week, but I will arrange my time according to the convenience of the committee. Senator Wolcott. "\A'ill ilonday be time enough I Mr. Williams. I would prefer Tuesday or Wednesday. Senator Wolcott. The 4th of March is drawing near and things luv piling up on us immensely. I just said to Senator Overman that if he were tied up in the Senate on Monday I would try to arrange, if possible, to get here at :^.30 Monday afternoon, and liear you, if no other member of the committee can be here,, but if yon go until "Wednesday every day additional will find this conunittee piled up with an additional amount of work. So, can you not be here at 2.30 on Monday, and be prepared to go ahead? Mr. Williams. I will. Senator Overman. Why Avoiild you jjrefer to make an oral state- ment instead of putting a written statement in the record? Mr. Williams. Sometimes you elicit some things that do not come out in a written statement. Senator O'S'ermax. That is where it gi'ows in length, by asking questions. Mr. Williams. I will limit it to two hours. May I ask. Senator Overman, if you ai-e going to ask any of these other gentlemen to come here. ]Mr. Eobins, Mr. Thacher; or Miss Beatty? Senator OvERaiAX. We ha^e not determined whom we are going to have next. That is for the committee to decide ; it is not for me. We will adjourn now until Monday at 2.30. (Whereupon, at 1.40 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee adjourned until Mondav, February 24, 1919, at 2.30 o'clock p. m.) BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. MONDAY, FEBRUABY 24, 1919. United States Senate, Subcommittee op the Committee on the JuDiciARr, Washington, D. C. The subcommittee met at 2.30 o'clock p. m., pursuant to adjourn- ment, in room 226, Senate Office Building, Senator Lee S. Overman presiding. Present: Senators Overman (chairman) and Wolcott. Senator Overman. The subcommittee will come to order. Mr. Wil- liams, will you please come forward ? TESTIMONY OF MR. ALBERT RHYS WILLIAMS— Resumed. Senator Overman. You stated yoi^had something you wanted to say to the committee. You may proceed. I think it was in regard to reconstruction, you said. Mr. Williams. Senator Overman, you suggested some ideas about reconstruction that might come out of the committee, but before the little that I have to offer in connection with Russia, I Avondered if I could make a few more statements, and then I would explain why I believe these things are of some value. Senator Overman. Of course you would not repeat any of your former statements? Mr. WiLLiAJis. Not to repeat anything that I have said ? Senator Overman. No. Mr. Williams. All right. Mr. Humes. I think you misunderstood. He said not to rexDeat. Senator Overman. I said I hope you will not repeat anything that you have already said. Mr. Williams. Certainl}'. It is not worth anything at all unless you believe what I believe myself, and that is, first of all, that the soviet government of Russia has a real basis in the affections and loyalties of the peoijle. May I state, in a preliminary fashion, that I do not pretend to know all the truth about Russia, but only state the truth about Russia as it has come to me — the viewpoint that I ha^e from my personal experiences. Senator Overman . When did you leave Russia ? I have forgotten when ydu said. Mr. Williams. I left Vladivostok in July. Senator Overman. When did you leave Petrograd? Mr. Williams. I left central Russia in May. Senator Overman. May? Mr. Williams. Yes. 649 ffiSO BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Wolcott. You were in central Eussia around Petrograd and Moscow, then, only from November to May, when the soviet government had been established? Mr. WiLLiAits. Well, about a year, altogether. From Xo\eraber to May during the soviet government ; yes, that is the period. Briefly, I want to tell why I believe that the soviet government— I see how difficult the committee's viewpoint is, where there is so much conflicting testimony here from people who are apparently honest. For example, there are four distinct groups of men who may come before this committee, who would tell you that the soviet government has been and is trying to preserve law and order; that it is based upon the affections of the vast masses of the Eussian people; that it is distinctlj' anti-German, and that it tried to be favorable to the allies. Yet here are other people who come here and say a great many contrary things. They picture Eussia as one grand con- flagration of loot, murder, and anarchy. I think the trouble, if I may say it, in regard to these latter wit- nesses is this, that, first of all, the trouble with them is the trouble that Burke had when he turned so ferociously against the French revolution. As I said the other day, Buckle said of Burke: "His sympathy with the present suiferings were so intense that they blotted out all memory of the suffering by which they had been evoked." The second reason I think these witnesses pliij'^ up all this terrible chaos, disorder, and massacre ki Eussia is because I believe that just as with war, so with re^olutiOTi, some people suffer from fear and from lack of food, and scientists aver that in these circumstances a . certain toxin enters into the blood, and that toxin registers itself in the mind. These witnesses consequently saw things in a distorted fashion, and they now tell them in a distorted way. In the third place, I think the trouble with these witnesses is that they take particulars and then generalize in the largest manner from them. For example, when it is said that the soviet of Vladimir has nationalized women, one must listen to that and read it and for the time being regard it as the edict of that soviet, if a man presents it here as such. But I ask you to remember that there are tens of thousands of Soviets in Eussia. Now, would it be a fair example to take the fact that there are polygamists in Utah and say that all Americans are polygamists ? Is it fair to take one soviet out of tens of thousands, or even two or three Soviets, who during this period of revolutionary change, or at a certain time when a certain faction was in control, issued a certain decree, and then generalize from that and say that that is the general standpoint of the govern- ment of Soviets in Eussia at the present time ? Mr. Htjmes. In that connection, then, we understand you to say that each one of these Soviets is a law unto itself, and each can make its own laws and its own regulations, and the soviet in one district could nationalize women and in another district could repudiate the nationalization of women ; is that correct ? Mr. Williams. Well, I do not believe for a moment, Mr. Humes, that any soviet would be able to maintain its connectioii with the central soviet, which tried to put into opertion any such decree as that. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 651 Mr. Humes. I only used the nationalization of women as an illus- tration. Is the conclusion that we draw from your statement cor- rect, that each one of these Soviets, within its own territory or within its own sphere, is a law unto itself ? Mr. Williams. Well, the point is that no one can make an exact, final statement as to the exact situation in Eussia, because it is changing during the revolutionary days. As Lenine has very often said, men will make further advances and go through a larger cycle of progress and change in one week than they do ordinarily in a year or 10 years. At certain times certain district Soviets have been very strong and have asserted their power in a way which is in vio- lation of the general central soviet. I know, for example, of a soviet in Siberia which would not allow' certain things to pass throough its jurisdiction from any other soviet, which was in absolute violation of the general laws of the country. Such instances do occur. At the present time the attack that is being made upon the Moscow central government is that it is becoming too centralized, too dis- ciplined, too drastic, in its authority. That is the reason we see a fellow like Eobert Minor coming out of Eussia disgusted with the whole scheme and saying it is a country run by a strong centralized government. Mr. Humes. Then the soviet government, according to the infor- mation you have, has become a rather highly centralized government at the present time, has it ? Mr. Williams. Well, from the last reports that we read — those re- markable reports from the New York World — it would seem that it has swung over in that direction very strongly. Mr. Humes. That would be compatible with the view that it is a dictatorship, would it not ? Mr. Williams. Yes; certainly-^a centralized government. Mr. Humes. It is no more highly centralized government than a dictatorship, is it? Mr. Williams. Quite so; that is a perfectly legitimate question, ?o far as Eussia is concerned. No one can answer it categorically yes or no. There is strife between the local governments, the rights of the individual states, and the rights of the central government. The attacks which seem to be leveled at the Moscow government now on the part of certain anarchists and others is that the present soviet government, as I said, is becoming altogether too centralized, too strong. I return to the idea that we should not generalize from certain par- ticulars. You know very well. Senators, that one could go and read the newspaper accounts for a month in America, and if he compiled the number of lynchings, the" number of robberies, the number of murders the number of railroad wrecks, and played all of that sort of thino- up in the people's imagination, they would have a terrible picture of the conditions. That would not be a true picture of America. So it is not a true picture of Eussia simply to play up all those evils that are being played up all the time. Senator Overman. Now, in regard to the Soviets, do you think any great portion of the people of Eussia are in favor of Bolshevism ? 652 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Williams. Yes: I believe that the soviet in the de&iie of the Eussian people's hearts. It has lasted 15 months, when the prophets originally said it Avoiild last three days, and then three weeks, and then three months. The fact is that it is stronger than ever to-day. Llovd- George said it is ruthless, bnt you have to admit that it is efficient. Senator Oveejeax. And that is true; but the question I asked voii was whether you thought the majority of the Eussian people, reo-ard- less of the Soviets, believed in Bolshevism. Mr. Williams. In answer to that I can point to the elections. Un- der the soviet rule about 90 per cent of the people over 18 years of age — ^men and women — can vote. In those elections under the soviet system they seem to vote for the soviet form of government. The answer is made to that. " Yes ; but these elections are not fair elec- tions: they are held by certain forces; they are held under intimida- tion." I do not believe it is true to any extent. The only effective answer I can make is this. In Vladivostok the soviet government was destroyed by the Czecho-Slo^'aks, with the Japanese and English cooperating. A month later they proclaimed an election in that city, and they said, " Xow that all of these tyrants are in jail, and now that all of these dictators are put away. Ave will have a fair election." There were 17 political parties on the ballots. Some one has said where there are three Eussians in a room there are four iDolitical parties. They have a genius for politics and kindred problems. Vladivostok was not a soviet city. Bolshevism did not have any strong hold on the city. i;ec;uise it "was an upper-clas^; city. Bnt when the}^ counted these tickets they found that ticket No. 17. which was the Bolshevik number, had more votes than all the other 16 put together. I do not think. Senator, it was because the people of ^"]adi- vostok were altogether Bolsheviks; I do not think they were. I think they voted to register their feeling against allied intervention that had happened. In the second place, martyrs had been made out of the Bolsheviks. The Eussian heart always goes out toward a mar- tyr. Xow, this is a concrete instance of an election held not under soviet auspieces. Mr. Humes. Eight there, Mr. Williams, let me ask you, is it not a fact that in that election a comparativeh' small percentage of the electorate actually particip.ated in the election? Mr. Williajis. I am not sure as to the exact number. Vladivostok is not a large city, but I could give you in round figures the statistics in thousands. Mr. Humes. There Mere about 12,000 votes? Mr. Williams. Twelve thousand Bolshevik votes — about 5,000 for the moderate socialist ticket and about 4,000 for the cadets. It is a city of about 75,000. Mr. Humes. In a city of 75,000 the're would be more than 50,000 ^•oters, would there not? Mr. Williams. I am not sure, under these circumstances, because it was a city Mr. Humes. If all persons over 18 years of age are voters, then the rule is the same as it is in this country, where the vote is one in five: but there everyone over 18 years of age is entitled to the ballots Senator Wolcott. And, furthermore, the women voted there, too, did they not? Mr. Williajis. I suppose they did ; yes. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 653 Senator Wolcoit. There certainly would be at least 50.000 quali- fied voters. Mr. WiixiAMs. Well, we do not Imow why there were not more voters. We simply know this, that there was an election while the allied troops were in occupation. The Bolshevik leaders were all in jail and their papers were suppressed. We know that the fight which was waged with ferocious combat was regarded as a conflict between the socialist bloc and the cadets. They never regarded the Bolshe- vik! as having a ghost of a chance ; yet the people rose up, and when the votes were counted the Bolshe^iki received more than all the rest together. Let me add this much more. Senator Overman, that a Canadian officer who returned from Omsk something like six weeks ago has recently said that in the city of Omsk, with a population of 200,000. he believes that 7.j per cent of the people now are Bolsheviki. Mr. Ackerman stated that all through Siberia the people are talking all the time about Bolshevism. Senator Wolcott. On the other hand, we have had witnesses here who have recently come out of Russia, some of them as late as pos- sibly last November, that onh^ put the number of Bolsheviki at 3 per cent, was it not? Mr. Humes. Five per cent. Senator Wolcott. Five per cent. So there you are. Mr. Williams. It is easy to make an estimate. All you can do is to make certain statements about certain things which happened. Here is one very positive thing. There were something like 12,- 000,000 soldiers that returned from the front. Half of them — more 'than half of them — brought their guns back with them. That gives you six or eight million guns in Russia. Now, if there were any wide or deep antagonism to the soviet government — and of course there is some, but if there were any wide and deep antagonism to the soviet — I believe that these guns would have rallied around those forces that were going to strike down the soviet. But they never did. Every time the soviet has been threatened these millions of guns and bayonets rose up for the protection of the soviet. The an- swer that is made to that by the opponents is that all the machine guns are in the hands of the Bolsheviki. Senator Wolcott. And all the ammunition ? Mr. Williams, x^mmunition, etc. Senator AYolcott. Because a gun is no use without ammunition. Mr. WiLLiAsis. But it is perfectly evident that we have in Russia four or five good nuclei for the anti- soviet forces to organize out of. For example, we have the nucleus in Ai'changel, where we threw in about 20,000 troops, about 5,000 Americans and a certain amount of French and Italians and Serbians. The report that comes from there — and it is a very definite report, too, Senators — is that only 1.200 Russians have rallied to the thousands and tens of thousands of allied troops. The British sent over there something like 700 or 800 officers to train them, but they only had about one man apiece to train; and the Detroit Free Press publishes an article from a soldier in that allied contingent- Senator Wolcott. I do not want to seem to suggest that you re- strain that and bring your testimony within the limits, but do you not 654 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. think it is going a little far to haul an article out of the Free Press? If you want to do it, you may do it, however. Mr. Williams. This will show how willing the people are to fight against the soviet organization. This is from the Chicago Tribune correspondent. This is the last thing [reading] : First. The North Russia allied expedition has developed Into a pitiful failure It has failed to inspire confidence and loyalty and give real assistance to Russia. It has become a cesspool of jealousy, hatred, mistalves, and shattered illusions! The different allies distrust one another and the Russians distrust the entire system. Second. The American troops were put under an absolute imperialistic com- mand, being handled In a way that was against every tradition of the Army and country. They were put to doing a King's business and to do whatever task was assigned to them by the British. American men and their ideals of right and fairness were entirely submerged through the un-American leader- ship. Third. The entij-e expedition sufliered from a complete lack of spiritual leadership. Instead of being an ordinary soldier's job, this expedition re- quired sympathetic understanding. It always has been more political than military. The original leaders tbouiiht themselves to he ^reaf soldiers and great diplomats, but they proved to be neither. Fourth. The expedition has lacked spiritual significance. Europe's war- tired men, sent here from the French battlefields, failed to appreciate the great revolution or sympathize with the unrest and the new birth that Russia is going through. Most of the allied soldiers, especially since the signing of the armistice, hated the .job, despite the Russians, and have no concern with the future of the country. The expedition, lacking this spiritual significance in men's minds, has become a mere fighting job to collect Russia's debt to Europe. Fifth. There is no enthusiasm even among the intelligent Russians in the north to assist the allies and fi.nht the Bolsheviki. Everywhere there is a grow- ing disgust apainst the expedition, especially .against the British. Sixth. The beautiful faith of the Russians for America is breaking under the. manhandling by our forces under the foreigTi command. The American forces have been led by an American colonel when they should have had a major .general. AMthin our nwn forces we lacked the right leadership, permitting the Americans to be placed under the limited control Of foreigners. I have come out of Russia to \A'rite this. The censorship that has crawled back into its hole in most of the world still wears the iron heel of war days in the north. The American public has been fed pretty stories of the gentle glories of this " help-Russia " expedition, but the facts are that a mess has been stewed and has been kept for the cooks themselves. America, whose ideals of honor are at stake and whose sons are being sac- rificed, has the right to know the facts. In North Russia the expedition has become a dismal comic opera. Here in the north, in a district that never was violently Bolshevist, where the allies had many friends at the start, and where, since the first days there have been unlimited opportunities to advance confi- dences and gain respect, here with everything their own way. the allies have failed utterly. Senator 0^■ERMAN. "Who is that from? Mr. WiLLi-\Ms. I think this was incorporated in the Congressional Eecord the other day. It is from the Chicago Tribune corre.spondent. I have a complete co^sy of it here. Senator Overman. Is he in Eussia — this correspondent? Mr. WiLLiAiMS. This is the last thing out, about seven days ago. He got it through the censor for some reason or other. I will have to go a little further, and then I will drop this subject. We have gone into Siberia; we have given the anti-soviet forces there something like 75,000 Czecho-Slavs; we have given them 60,000 Japanese troops. It is true that 40,000 of those were reserves and Avere not actuallj^ used, but they are there. We have given contin- gents of English, French, Italian, and American troops. What is BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 655' the net result to Siberia? Siberia is a country of 16,000,000 toilers. The net result is that after the enemies of the Soviets had been given every opportunity — moral, economical, social, and otherwise — ^the fact is that none of the governments that have been organized could last a day after the allied troops were a^ ithdrawn. Immediately new Soviets would come into power. Senator Wolcott. This is a prediction of yours ? Mr. Williams. Yes. The soviet enemies are crying for more allied troops, and not to withdraw the ones we have at present. Senator Wolcott. But your assertion is that if these allied troops were withdrawn the government could not continue; that is your opinion ? Mr. Williams. That is my opinion, based on statements of cor- respondents that have come out of Russia, and it is based on the fact that there is a letter going through this country now from an English attache in which he says, " For heaven's sake recognize the soviet government, because there is no other government in Eussia pos- sible." Mr. Humes. You have given us a whole lot of figures about the numbers of the military forces. How manj' troops did you say th& English have there ? Was it 20,000 English « Mr. Williams. I think I said 20,000. Mr. Httmes. How many have the French? Mr. Williams. T do not know. I said about 7,000 Americans. Mr. Hu:\rES. About 7,000 Americans. How many troops in all? That would make 27,000 troops. Mr. Williams. I think there were about twenty-five to thirty thousand allied troops. Mr. Humes. Twenty-five to thiirty thousand. Would that include the English and the Americans? Mr. Williams. Those are the only official figures I have ever seen> Mr. Humes. ISow, you say there are 70,000 Czecho-Slovaks? Mr. Williams. It is estimated, from 50,000 to 100,000. Mr. Humes. As a matter of fact, there are not to exceed 50,000, are there? Mr. Williams. Well, some have put it as high as 200,000. Mr. Humes. The Czecho-Slovaks have occupied a position of abso- lute neutrality in Siberia, in an effort to get out of Siberia, in an effort to get ovey to the French front, have they not ? Mr. Williams. It is a debatable question. The point is that 50,000' troops have been working against the soAdet government. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that they have preserved absolute neutrality and have conformed in every way that they could to the soviet decrees, wherever there was a soviet and wherever the Bol- shevik government was in control ? Is not that a fact ? Mr. Williams. No, it is not a fact. It is a fact at the present moment that they are not fighting. But when the friction arose be- tween themselves and the soviet, they turned into an army that de- stroyed the Soviets throughout Siberia. As a matter of fact, the Czecho-Slovaks have lost thousands and thousands of their finest soldiers. Mr. Humes. However, they made an effort to maintain absolute neutrality, and as evidence of good faith they permitted themselves 656 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. to be disarmed when trineling over the Siherian Railroad— turned over their arms to the Bolshevik government. Did they not do that ' Mr. Williams. I do not see any point in discussing the Czecho- slovaks. Mr. Humes. Did they not do that? Mr. Williams. No ; I regard the Czecho-Slovaks as having fallen into the hands of the French military authorities, who strung them out along the Siberian Eailroad and then engineered friction between them and the soviet government. They got the Magyar troops to fire on the Czecho-Slovaks, who naturally became incensed and went through Siberia destroying all the Soviets. Mr. Hujmes. You have stated that as a conclusion. Do you mean to state it as an absolute fact that it was not the purpose of the Czecho- slovak troops to preserve absolute neutrality when they were going through Siberia ? Mr. Williams. I believe that the intention of the Czecho-Slovak troops when they started through Siberia was to preserve neutrality and to take the correct attitude toward the Soviets. Mr. Humes. Did they do anything except to defend themselves, if they took any action whatever? Mr. Williams. I only know what I saw and what the leaders of the Czecho-Slovaks have told me. Mr. Humes. Do you know, or is it simply speculation? Mr. Williams. Not speculation at all, but the proof of it would take too long a time. Mr. Humes. Are you passing that on as fact or as your own opinion? Mr. Williams. I saw in Vladivostok 15,000 Czecho-Slavs go into action, and I knew all about the telegraphic communications from the central part of Siberia assuring egress from Siberia for the Czecho- slovaks. Mr. Humes. That was while they were protecting their military stores, was it not ? Mr. Williams. They were supposed to be going out to the French front. Mr. Humes. So much for that. We started to arrive at the numer- ical strength. How many American troops did you say there were in Siberia ? Mr. Williams. About 5,000. Senator Wolcott. I thought you said 7,000. Mr. Williams. Possibly 7,000. Mr. Humes. How many Japanese troops ? Mr. Williams. The reports that we had were that there were 65,000 troops and 45,000 used as reserves. Mr. Humes. At what time did you have these reports? Mr. Williams. Those were the' last reports as to the number of the .Japanese. Mr. Humes. When was that ? Mr. Williams. Up until about two months ago we had a notice that there were 45,000 reserve troops. Senator Wolcott. How did you leaf n that ? Mr. Williams. It was published in the Times. Senator Wolcott. Through the press, you mean ? Mr. Williams. The Times correspondent. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 657 Mr. HCMES. What other troops were in the interior ? Mr. Williams. Besides the Japanese, the Americans, and Czecho- slovaks, among the foreign troops were some Italians^a very few— and a small contingent of French. What others, I do not Imow. Mr. Humes. Do you know, as a matter of fact, that there was only one regiment of Americans in Siberia ? Mr. Williams. Yes. Mr. Humes. What is the numerical strength of the regiment ? Mr. WiLUAMS. Now, I do not know whether it was a whole regi- ment or two or three. I know it is asserted that there were between 5,000 and 7,000 Americans. Mr. Humes. Where is that assertion made, now, Mr. Williams ? Mr. Williams. New York Times. Mr. Humes. New York Times ? Mr. Williams. Yes. Mr. Humes. When was that assertion made? Mr. Williams. I will be glad Mr. Humes. It is not the periodical, but who is the authority for the statement? Mr. Williams. The correspondent of the Times. Mr. Humes. Do you not know that it has been repeatedly stated by the Government that all the troops that went to Siberia were a regi- ment that went from Manila ? Mr. Williams. Yes ; I have heard it stated that there were as many as 16,000, but from the figures I have seen it was about 7,000 or 6,000. Mr. Humes. Are you no more sure of the other statements that you have made as to the Russian situation and the conditions in Rus- sia than you are as to the number of troops you have referred to as being in Archangel and in Siberia ? Mr. Williams. I am willing to let the other statements that I made about Russia stand upon the same basis as my statements about the troops in Archangel and in Vladivostok. Mr. Humes. And one rests on just as substantial a foundation as the other ? Mr. Williams. Quite so. Mr. Humes. All right ; proceed. Mr. Williams. Well, now, considering the idea of the strength of the soviet in Russia, I said that during the period of 15 months the people were for the Soviets in the elections. Ninety per cent of the Russian people took part in the elections, and while they change the constituencies of the soviet officials and parties they retain the soviet itself. In the next place, as far as the sis million or eight million Russians who are in Russia are concerned, who have guns, we see no uprisings against the Soviets, but we see always those guns and bay- onets used against the enemies of the Soviets ; we see that around the nuclei that have been formed of the soviet forces in Archangel and Siberia according to the last statements received, Russian troops rallied about them. Mr. HuJiES. In that connection, with reference to firearms is it not a fact that all the elements of the population, except those that are in sympathy with or under the control of the present government, the Bolshevik regime or the soviet government, have been disarmed, and 85723—19 42 658 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGAJSDA. is it not one of the policies of the government to disarm everybody that is not in sympauiy with the perpetuation of the existing system? ill'. AYiLLiAjiti. In the soviet government of Russi;i I have no doubt that the people Avho are anti-soviet are not allowed to have firearms, just as precisely the anti-soviet government in Vladivostok have taken avray the arms from the pro-soviets. Mr. Httjies. In other words, in the territory where the Soviets and Bolsheviki control, the persons opposed to them have been dis- armed, and consequently they are in no position, even if they ANcre disposed to, to use any forcible resistance as against the regime. Is not that true? Mr. WiLUAMS. It is true as far as you can take a vast country and disarm a hundred millions of people. It is true to an extent, but one finds all through Russia these guns in the homes of the working- men and in the hands of the peasants. They have been hidden so that searching parties can not get them; just as the pro-soviet party in Siberia that have been disarmed, I have no doubt, will be able to get their hands on arms if they want to rise up against the Kolchak government. Mr. HuiiEs. That is. where people have been disarmed, some of the people may ha^e arms in the same sense that a man in this coun- try may carry concealed weapons. But there has been an organiza- tion to disaim these people opposed to the present regime? Mr. Williams. I suppose so. Mr. Humes. Do you not think that would have a tendency to re- tard action on their part against the Bolsheviki ? Mr. Williams. Perhaps so. But Alexieff started up from the Don with his Cossacks and announced that he was going to Moscow. There was not a force between him and Moscow to oppose him, but the peasants and workmen rose up spontaneously and organized such a resistance that the Cossacks were unable to proceed any far- ther. The whole countryside was solid against Mm. I have tried to bring hom to you the fact that the establishment of the soviet was in a very painless and bloodless fashion. For example, the Vladivostok soviet — I know that is a specific instance Mr. Humes. You can not base a revolution on a paper program of that kind. You could organize 14 different kinds of government on paper and have no bloodshed, but when you put that paper organization into practical and active operation the blood commences to flow. Mr. Williams. Precisely. Mr. Humes. Therefore we are not concerned with the paper pro- gram when we are discussing the Bolsheviki. The fact remains that when that program is put into operation then blood commences to flow, does it not? Mr. WiLLiAJis. The point I made the other day was that in Petro- grad the soviet was established with the killing of onlv 18 people, in Moscow something like 1,000, in Kiev 2,000, and in Irkutsk with some victims. In all Russia, from the time of the November revolution to June, 1918, when the soviet had established its power from the Atlantic to the Pacific and from the White Sea to the Ukraine. I stated that the killing was not more than 1, at the very utmost, out of 1,000 of the population. By June, 1918, all revolts BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 659 liacl been practically suppressed and the soviet government had been recognized from one end of the country to the other. There were anti-soviet governments organized in Harbin and other outside cities, but, Senators, not one of the ministers of those paper govern- ments dared to step his foot on the soil of Siberia or Russia. He would have been looked at as a common criminal. In June, 1918, before allied intervention came in, the soviet had control over the vast territory of Russia and Siberia. The American Red Cross — • Maj. Thacher particularly dwells upon this — when they came out over their trans-Siberian line in May, said that as they came out they found order was just as good at Irkutsk and all along the line to Vladivostok as at Moscow — order just as good 6,000 miles away as it was in the center itself or 10 miles from the center. I think it is an indisputable fact that the Soviets had established themselves very effectively and very basically as the government of Russia by June, 1918, without the killing of one in a thousand of the population. I started to tell you, Major, that the Vladivostok soviet was estab- lished without the killing of even a single human being. Yet when the allies overthrew the Soviets they filled evei'v hospital and even the warehouses with the slain. Thousands and thousands of others were killed, because the people along that line rose up en masse for the protection of the Soviets. Senator Wolcott. You say " thousands and thousands of others." How many others ? Mr. Williams. Yes ; thousands and thousands. I think the Czecho- slovak commandant here and I are going to have a conversation after this matter, because it is a very involved subject. I have great respect for the Czecho-Slovaks. I think he will agree with the state- ment that thousands and thousands of their troops were wiped out because the people rose up against them. I ought to insert this here. People say, " Well, you paint a picture of the millennium in Russia under the soviet." I do no such thing. I know that conditions are bad even in Vladovostok. I heard one man get up and curse the soviet because they had promised the people everything. He said, "AVhere is the stuff they ]:)romised? Where is the bread? They have not given the people bread; tlioy have just cut the rations down." While what he said was true, the audience showed their strong disapproval of his speech, and it was for this reason: The people wanted bread and better economic con- ditions, but there are certain other things they desired also. Man does not live by bread alone, nor do the Soviets live simply by the bread they give the people. I want to explain to you why it is that people are so tenacious. We could not exist if our Government could not give us bread and fairly good conditions of life; and if it could not give us clothes and shelter and everything else, we would rise and overturn the Government. It was the same way when I came out of Siberia and Russia and enjoyed all the wonderful com- forts we have here. We are in a different land, entirely. There every- thing was bad. Food was bad. Conditions are very much mixed up. Whv is it, then, that the Russians cling so tenaciously to the Soviets when they have not given the people as much bread and housing and clothes; when things are very bad? It is for this reason that the Soviets are o-i ring the people something else that they need as much 660 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. as bread. One of the things that for the first times in their lives they have been getting is an organization they could understand, where the least man could talk out. They enjoy that, and they are very tenacious of that because the mass have a sense of power. The workingman likes it. He has power, a certain ruthless power, a brutal power. I do not deny it, but I am trying to tell you why he likes the Soviets. For the first time he is regarded not as an animal but as a human being. I think every man likes a sense of adventure, a sen.-e of creating things. That is the reason the manufacturer likes to do big things. And now through the soviet these men who have been dead and stupid and oppressed in many ways are given a chance to do something, creating a new world and a new order. You say they are fanatics. But e^'ery man has a spiritual pas- sion in him. It needs only to be aroused. The Soviets have aroused it. The}' are conscripts of a mighty dream. Rightly or wrongly, this dull peo^jle believe that they have a mission to the world, and in face of the fact that the rest of the world has an organized so- ciety, they feel that somehow oi' other they are establishing an or- ganized societj' in such a way that all the rest of the world will come over and copy it. I will admit the contention that there is disorder, and lack of bread and clothes and the essentials of life in Russia. At the same time, I do not think that these anti-soviet witnesses have seen into the heart and soul of the Russian people or realize the satisfactions that the soviet has given them. We all crave fellowship, power, adventure, and we crave something to satisfy other needs. The soviet has done that with its slogans. In spite of its fanatical course, its bloodshed, and all else, the fact remains that it has given these other things. Therefore the people are loyal to it, for that reason. Mr. Humes. Now, let me ask you. You discussed the freedom of speech and the freedom of action and the new liberties of the Rus- sian people. Were not they accomplished in the March revolution, and has there been any greater degree of freedom under the Bol- shevik regime than that which was established under the so-called Kerensky or provisional government regime? ^Ir. WiLiiAars. It is pretty hard to answer that, because I could say '-yes" and another man could say "no." I think perhaps the soviet has been more iron-fisted and strong, and sometimes has exercised more repression, than the Kerenslcy regime, because the Kerensky regime was a weak regime. ilr. HxJMES. In other words, from the purely personal standpoint there were more personal liberties on the part of the individual imder the Kerensky regime than under the Bolshevik regime, were there not? ^Ir. AV11.LIAMS. It is like this. It depends upon the class. For ex- ample, before the Bolsheviki came into power there was much sup- pression of their papers, closing up of their offices, and there was a great deal of hounding of their men, jailing and even killing of their leaders. A great many of them were thrown into jail. So that the masses suffered a great deal under the Kerensky regime. But at the present time the other end of society is suffering under their BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 661 Mr. Humes. In other words, the Bolsheviki are now doing to the elements that favored the provisional government just what the provisional government was proposing to do in a weaker way to the Bolsheviks and their regime; is that true? It is a case of dog eat dog. Mr. Williams. If you are going to fi^re it up numerically, you must see that the masses of the population and their organizations were bein^ suppressed under the Kerensky regime, while the class that is being suppressed now represents a very small proportion of the population. Mr. Ht7mes. Is it not a fact that a portion theoretically in favor of the Bolsheviki in a very large percentage are supporting the Bol- sheviki either because they find it convenient to obtain for themselves food and the necessaries of life, or else to prevent violence and to save difficulty and the coercion that they might meet from the Bol- sheviki if they were openly antagonizing them or opposing them ? Mr. Williams. There is a certain measure of truth in that ; but the best answer I can give to that is to state that where these supposedly dissatisfied elements have been giA^en a chance to rally to the organi- zations and forces opposed to the soviet government, they have not done so. Do you understand what I am driving at? I do not think that great numbers of them have been coerced to support the government, because the Russian people are flaming, defiant rebels against repressions, and they do not seem to have rebelled against the Soviets. Mr. Humes. Once more we are getting an expression of your opinion as it differs from the opinion of others ? Mr. Williams. Precisely. But may I interject that you have the opinion of 15 witnesses on the other side and at least 12 or 15 wit- nesses on this side who are contending for the very same view that I am. Mr. Humes. You say that you are here as a champion of the Bol- sheviki; that you are defending them; that you were and are at present. Mr. Williams. Precisely. Senator Wolcott. May I be permitted to make an observation? All the other witnesses that have come here have impressed me as being impartial, while you certainly admitted, as I recall, at the be- ginning of your testimony, that you were confessedly, in a sense, a partisan of the Bolsheviki ? Mr. Williams. Precisely. I was trying to say that in this country we have largely a reflection of the attitude of 5 per cent of the Rus- sian people toward the revolution; or perhaps 10 per cent of the people. I am perfectly willing to admit that those people have suf- fered a great deal in the loss of the necessaries of life. But I came to reflect the feeling of 90 per cent of the masses of the soviet gov- ernment. Senator Wolcott. By the way, these many witnesses that have appeared here would take strong issue with you that 90 per cent of the people are in favor of the Bolsheviki. They reverse it. Mr. Williams. I am aware of that ; and I am one of the first three witnesses to try to press home another viewpoint, but your minds are full of the things that have been told you by men that have been 662 BOLSHEVIIC PROPAGANDA. liei-e. Their ideas will have a stronger influence than mine. But at the same time, if you had heard me after Mr. Eobins and Mr. Thomp- son and Mr. Wardwell, of the Red Cross, and Mr. Louis Edgar Browne, and Dr. Kuntz, and Miss Beatty of McCall's Magazine, and after Dr. Reichman, and Mr. Keddie of the Quaker mission, after Jerome Da^'is and Mr. Humphries of the Y. M. C. A. — after all those men have been sitting here and I make my statement — you would think, perhaps, that I was stating the case for the soviet gov- ernment in mild form. Senator Wolcott. All the other witnesses were unbiased, but you admit that you are not. Mr. Williams. I do not know of any witness who does not look at the matter from a particular biased standpoint. I do not try to persuade myself that I am unbiased, because I am biased by what I have seen. I have just read in the newspapers of three young fel- lows that were working there with me, for whom I had the greatest respect and honor, and three men who have got just as nuich of the spirit as — I say it reverently — almost as much as Jesus Himself, three fellows between 19 and 26 years of age. They have just been shot in Siberia. It is hard for me to be cold and unmoved by it, because it is the same as if my brothers had been shot. Therefore I am biased by that feeling that comes all the time, when I speak about Russia. I know that these anti-soviet witnesses could not help but reflect the class they lived with. We all persuade ourselves that we look at a question from a very unprejudiced viewpoint, but we are all biased. I am all the time being biased by the fact that these men that I have been living with and have had so much respect for are being killed. Sometimes it makes me mad, and sometimes I wonder that I keep as restrained as I do. That is my attitude while I am speaking on this subject; and, of course, you are listening not only to facts but to opinions, the reflec- tion of what I have got from my experiences there. Arthur Ransome, writing in the New Republic, says : Xo one contends that the Bolsheviks are angels. I ask only that men shall look through the fog of libel that surrounds them and see that the ideal for which they are strugglinK, in the (july way in which they can struggle, is among those lights M-hich every man of young and honest heart sees before him some- where on the road, and not among those other lights from which he resolutely turns away. These men who have made the Soviet government in Russia, if they must fail, will fail with clean shields and clean hearts, having striven for an ideal which will live beyond them. Even if they fail, they will none the less have written a page of history more daring than any other which I can remem- ber in the story of the human race. They are writing it amid showers of mud from all the meaner spirits in their country, in yours, and in my own. But, when the thing is over, and their enemies have triumphed, the mud will vanish like black magic at noon, and that page will be as white as the snows of Russia, and the writing on it as bright as the gold domes that I used to see glittering in the sun when I looked from my windows in Petrograd. And when in after years men read that page they will judge your country and mine, your race and mine, liv the help or hindrance thev gave to the writing of it. And so I do not know how to bring home to you — and I do not think it will get home to you by my particular statement here— my belief in the soviet government as "a vital basic power in harmony with the needs of the Russian people. I believe it with all my soul, because the other governments have shown by the manner of their BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 663 dying that they had no right to live. For example, we know how the Czar's government fell. It was only necessary to disintegrate the army. That is what it rested on, entirely. Disintegrate the army and the Czar fell. As to the Kerensky government, it was only necessary to surround the ministers in the Winter Palace, and it fell. But the soviet government — to wipe it out you have to wipe out these local self-governing bodies. That is where its great basic strength is. I admit that the present soviet government does not allow the largest demccratic representation, as I think it ultimately will. It is an out- standing fact that the industrial laborers of Eussia only represent about 15 per cent of the population. The rest of the population is peasant. The peasants have just the same number of delegates in the ■central congress in Moscow as the industrial workers. It is a mis- representative government to that extent. I do not see why this fact has not been brought out plainly by the anti-soviet side. It is true that during revolutionary days the worlanen who compose the 15 per cent of the population have just as much voice in the government as all the rest of the population of Eussia put together. I think it is unfair, and ultimately that will be wiped out of the soviet constitu- tion. The only thing that can be said in favor of it is that the cities dominate the country, and the cities happen to be very enthusiastic for the soviet. There is just one other thing. Senators, that I want to speak of at this point, and that is that you are not inclined, so far as I under- stand, to make a distinction between the soviet and the Bolsheviki. Senator Wolcott. I think we had that pointed out; that the Bol- sheviki is a political party and the soviet is the method of govern- ment. Mr. Williams. It is true, also, that the Bolsheviki are the dominant party, and they control the Soviets. Senator Wolcott. Some witnesses have said here that the Bolshe- viki are the dominant party in this sense, that they are in control ; but they have said that it is by no means a majority that have control of the Soviets. Mr. Williams. They can not be in control unless they are in the majority. Senator Wolcott. You have given testimony here that as you see the situation they are actually in the majority. Let me ask you when this soviet form of government originated ? Mr. Williams. The soviet form of government, so far as it origi- nated in the mind of a single human being, originated in the mind of an American called Daniel de Leon. Senator Wolcott. As far as Eussia is concerned there were Eus- sion Soviets at the time of the revolution. Mr. Williams. Every village was organized on soviet lines. They were organized from one end of the country to the other. Senator Wolcott. Did they organize the all-Eussian congress of Soviets ? Mr. Williams. When I arrived in Petrograd in June, 1917, the first all-Eussian congress of Soviets met, and it may be interesting to you to know that that congress, which was addressed by Mr. Dun- can and Mr. Eussell, of the Eoot mission, had, out of the 1,200 dele- gates — I am not exactly sure of the statistics, but I think out of the 664 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1,000 or 1,200 delegates there were only 100 or 125 Bolsheviks. All the rest belonged to the other parties. As the masses grew more rad- ical they went over to the Bolsheviks. Senator WoLcorr. So that the soviet government was not estab- lished by the Bolsheviks? Mr. WiLLiAsrs. It was foreign to their minds at the beginning of the revolution. Senator Wolcott. It was in existence, and the Bolsheviks got con- trol of it? Mr. Williams. It was like this, as I tried to explain the other day. It grew up spontaneously and elementally out of the life of the Rus- sian people, and they worked it out. The separate Soviets were linked up together more and more. The part the Bolsheviks had to- do with the establishment of the soviet- government was this, ^¥[\m the Kerensky government Avas showing its weakness and would not give the people land or peace, or anything they wanted, the Bolshe- viks said, ''All power to the soviet. You want the land, and there is; your government, the soviet, which will give it to you." I think that it is the mark of genius of the Bolshevik leaders not to impose things on the people, but to recognize the things which exist and to utilize it. The Bolshe\iks had nothing to do with originating the soviet. Lenine simply pointed to the soviet as the de facto organ of power. Senator Wolcott. A moment ago you were saying something to this effect — that the old Czar's government fell because of its cor- ruption and inefficiency, and as soon as the army, upon which it was- bottomed, disintegrated, it fell; and the Kerensky government, fol- loAving it. fell because it could not satisfy the longing of the Russian people for what they wanted; and that, thereupon, the soviet gov- ernment came to the fore as the thing that met the hopes and aspira- tions of the Russian people. Now, that system of government yott have to-day existed under Kerensky. It must not, therefore, have been the form of government, or what they gave as the form of gov- ernment, that appealed to people and induced them to overthrow the Kerensky government ; and thus it seems to me your logic does not prove good. There must have been something else that intervened there which appealed to the Russian people that occasioned the overthrow of the Kerensky government ; and was not that something else the desire to take property directly by the people and not await the long process of the meeting of the constituent assembly and the working out of a scheme? Mr. Williams. I think that is quite right. Senator Wolcott. Then, if that be true, is not this true, that the Bolshevik program that they stood for was bottomed not on high ideals of liberty as expressed in the soviet form of government, but upon the selfish desires of human nature to take unto itself and seize; that is to say, bottomed on something like the unholy passion of greed? . , Mr. WiLJLiAMS. I think you are absolutely right. In all great social movements, while they have certain idealistic objects and tendenciei?, I think that the fundamental motives are economic, fundamentally selfish motives, if you please. I do not quarrel with that. I wish it was otherwise ; but we have to accept it as a fact. It is true that, as you say, during the summer of 1917 the Russian people had gotten BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 665' tired, they had ceased to think that the constituent assembly was ever- going to come, or that the end of the war was going to come. The peas- ant, saying that the land was God's and the people's, was going out and taking over the land and burning the manor houses and the hay ricks, and doing many brutal and cruel things. We saw the working- men, in the same way, taking over factories and botching and destroy- ing material. We saw the soldiers, disgusted with the conduct of the war, throwing down their guns and leaving the front by tens of thou- sands. The masses, warworn and weary and disillusioned, seemed tO' be pushing Kussia over the edge of the abyss and into chaos, anarchy,, and night. I stated that it was my solemn conviction that if there had not arisen a party that could see that for this ultraradical, deep-run- ning movement of the people there must be an ultraradical program, of government, Russia would really have gone on into anarchy, chaos, and night ; but the Bolsheviks had the ability to take these elemental energies that were loose in the world and guide them to a constructive purpose; they had the confidence of the people, so that the people trusted them. As I said before, we must try to think in the Russian terms. The American thinks that land is private property, primar- ily; but it is not so with the Russian. Nineteen out of twenty Rus- sians believe — and I do not think anyone will deny that — that the- land should belong to the people who used the land. They never be- lieved that the large landowners had any right to the land. The peasants who, of their own accord, were taking over the land without any sanction in law were given a legal basis and legal right for doing- what they did. The same way with the taking over of the factories. They were given some legal authority for their action. There was one thing I brought up the other day — I think you had some answer to it, but I did not quite get it — that whenever any country thinks that its national destiny demands that it do a certain thing, it does it. We thought as a people that we must cut out the cancer — slavery — and put an end to it, and we did so. Just in the same way the Rus- sian people believed that to fulfill their national destiny, rightly or wrongly, the land must belong to the people. Senator Wolcott. As a matter of fact, I take issue with you on your historical analogy. The Civil War Avas not fought to cut out the cancer of slavery. It ended in that, but it is clear as daylight that Lincoln's purpose was to save the Union, and he said that if he could save the Union with slavery he would save it; i'f he could save the Union half slave and half free, he would save it ; if he could save the Union with the slaves free, he would save the Union; he would do anything to save the Union. That was his idea. He freed the slaves in order to cripple the South, as a war measure. Mr. Williams. Well, good: that was Lincoln's purpose, that is right, to save the Union. But I do not think you do reach over with your minds into Russia and understand with what a passion those people cling to the idea that they must save the revolution. That is their purpose, to save the revolution, and it seemed that the revo- lution could be saved only by taking these drastic measures. It is almost impossible to project yourselves into the feeling that those men had and appreciate the loyalty that they felt toward their revolution. ■666 BOLSHE Mr. Humes. Coming back to your historical analogy, if the Bol- sheviki had been in control of this country at the time of the Civil War, instead of freeing the slaves they would have nationalized them. They would have preserved the propertv element ; they would have perpetuated the property in the slaves ; but they would have national- ized the slaves and made them the property of the State rather than the property of the individuals, would they not? Mr. Williams. Mr. Humes, I am a good partisan of the Bolsheviks in some ways, but I am not able to read their minds and I'cad l);ick into those conditions back there and say what they would have done. Mr. Humes. You have undertaken to analyze two historical oc- currences. Mr. Williams. Yes. Mr. Humes. The property in the land is preserved and nationalized and taken over by the government in Russia. The slaves in the United States were not taken over by the Government, but they were ireed. Mr. Williams. Yes. Mr. Humes. Therefore the two cases are not analogous, are they ( Mr. Williams. They are analogous as to the matter of property Tights. I was trying to prove to you that whene\er any nation sees that there are certain obstacles in the way of the fulfillment of what it regards as its national destiny and national ends, it makes some very short cut toward that, and the national destiny of keeping our Union intact demanded the abolition of property rights in slaves, etc. Mr. Humes. Yes. Mr. Williams. Therefore we did that. We put it through, just as in this war we have cut into established property rights. Mr. Humes. But property rights are not abolished in Russia ; they .are nationalized. Mr. Williams. All right ; I agree with you very heartily on that. Mr. Humes. Proceed. Senator Wolcott. Before you proceed on another line, I am curi- ous to know why the Bolshevik party were unwilling to wait for the ■constituent assembly in which, as I understand, the Russian people might through their representatives, meet and devise a form of gov- ernment which, in their judgment, would preserve to them all the iruits of the revolution. Mr. Williams. I' think that in the popular mind everywhere the dissolution of the constituent assembly is one of the black marks •upon the whole soviet regime ; here was a great constituent assembly which was talked about for such a long time, and then when it finally met, it was dissolved by the bayonets of the Soviets. Senator WoLc;oTT. Yes. Xow, why was that? Mr. Williams. Why? Senator Wolcott. Go ahead. Mr. Williams. I will tell you. The Bolsheviki were the ones who did the most howling for the constituent assembly; yet when the constituent assembly came, they were the ones who di^olved it. There you have one of the strange antitheses of life. I will give you the technical reason for it. In the first place, the great party in Russia is not the Menshevik or the Bolshevik. The ;great. historic party, that had the great, powerful figures in the past BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 667 history of Russia, is the social-revolution party; the party of the peasants. We do not hear much about theui now. In the summer of 1917 many of the tickets were made up of the constituent assembly, and the socialist-revolutionist ticket was just one, straight ticket. After the ticket was made up, the socialist- revolutionist party split in two, into the right and left. The left became more radical and went over to the Soviets, joined with the Bolsheviki in crying "All power to the Soviets." That happened along in September, because in reA-olutionar}^ times you will remem- ber the changes are verj^ quick. When the ticket was presented to the masses of the people it had almost exclusively right socialist-revolutionist names on it; but the peasants had not known yet about the split that had come about in the ranks of the people. They did not know what the left was standino; lor. Senator Wolcott. There was a left ticket? Mr. Williams. There was no left ticket. There was only one ticket. Senator Wolcott. Oh, yes. Mr. Williams. And so they almost all voted as socialist-revolu- tionists, which put in the constituent assembly almost one-half of the number of it right social revolutionists — more than one-half. Senator Wolcott. Did the Bolsheviki have a ticket in this elec- tion? Mr. AViLLiAMs. Yes; but just get this point clear. In January, 1918, two great congresses met in Petrograd, the third all-Eussian congress of Soviets and the constituent assembly. The peasants had sent to the third all-Russian congress of Soviets practically no one but left social revolutionists, and in the constituent assembly meeting at the same time, the peasants had practically noth- ing but right social revolutionists. So the soviet said, '' This con- stituent assembly is entirely misrepresentative of the people." The third all-Russian congress of Soviets was elected 10 days before it met, and in that all-Russian congress of Soviets you find the peasants sending a definitely left radical group of representatives, while in the constituent assembly, which had been elected, one, two, or three months earlier, you find the peasants sending practically a solid right social revolutionist representation. In other words, the change that had gone on in the minds of the peasants when they had turned to the left was not registered in the constituent assembly. It was registered ■ in the all-Russian congress of Soviets. The Soviets said, "This present constituent assembly does not represent the people." That is the one outstanding reason why they dissolved the constituent assembly. I do not want to spin hair logic around the thing, but I think that is the legitimate reason. Senator Wolcott. You think that is a legitimate reason? Mr. Williams. I think it was a legitimate reason. Furthermore, I think if they had not dissolved the constituent assembly — ^I know how strange this will sound, but knowing Russia I say it, that with- out the dissolution of the constituent assembly — the danger of Russia going over into chaos and night would have been greater than ever. Senator Wolcott. There is no point in guessing at reasons. That 668 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. is SO purely speculative, beyond the power of any human mind to forecast, that I do not think it is worth Avhile giving it. Mr. Williams. Can I give Senator Wolcott. You may give your ideas, if you want to. I do not want to stop you. Mr. WiLLiAjis. Then let me state this. At the time these two con- gresses met in Petrograd the constituent assembly declared that it would have a great parade in its honor — in favor of tlie constituent assembly — and the whole city was allowed to have that parade, ex- cept a certain section of it where the soviet said the parade must not go on account of possible trouble. This parade was held in the city of Petrograd at the time when it was a matter of life and death of the constituent assembly, there were 15,000 people in it — at the out- side 20.000 — Avho paraded for it. Now, take the soviet. Many people in this room have seen lit- erallj' hundreds of thousands of people in a soviet parade. If it Avere a matter of life and death to the all-Ruasian congress of Soviets there would have been hundreds of thousands of people ready to parade for it, and to die for it. Senator Wolcott. That does not prove much to me, because I have seen, in my State, the Democrats outparade the Eepublic.ns many and many a time and then get licked badly at the polls. Mr. Williams. Very good. May I just state that Mr. Kobins at that time had 50 or 60 telegrams coming in from all over tlie country as to the attitude of the people to the constituent assembly. He said that the dissolution of the constituent assembly provoked little or no protest, but you observe, whenever anybody tries to disturb the Soviets, that it produces a great uproar. Senator Wolcott. Who disbanded them ? Mr. WiLLLiMS. The constituent assembly was disbanded by order of the third all-Eussian congress of Soviets. Senator Wolcott. Who went there and forced them to disband? Mr. Williams. There were a dozen, or probably 50, of the soldiers or sailors of the all-Russian soviet. Senator Wolcott. Were they the Kronstadt sailors? Mr. Williams. The Kronstadt boys were in at the head of almost everything, and I think they probably went on this. Senator Wolcott. They went in there armed, I suppose? Mr. Williams. They met there for one day, and the constituent as- sembly continued until about 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning. Finally, they turned to the constituent assembly and said, " You are not doing anything here. We are tired and want to go home, and we suggest that you go home," and so they all went home. Senator Wolcott. They thought that discretion was the better part of valor there and they went home. That is all there is about it? Mr. Williams. Yes; exactly. Senator WoLco-rr. They thought discretion was the better part of valor there. Mr. Williams. Some members of the constituent assembly organ- ized in several places, but they never have been able to do anything. May I interject here this fact ? Tchernoff was elected president of the constituent assembly. " Humanite," in Paris, now admits that Tchernoff has gone to Moscow and has made an agreement with BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 669 Lenine to enter into cooperation with the soviet government. I am not able to confirm that, however. Senator Wolcott. Suppose that to be true, what does it prove ? Mr. Willta;ms. It only proves that, however unfortunate we may regard certain actions in Russia in the past, we have got to regard the soviet as rooting itself deeper and deeper in the larger bases of the population. That is what finally I want to get to you. Senator Wolcott. That man may be like the Vicar of Bray. You remember about the A^icar of Bray, of course ? Mr. Williams. No ; I do not remember. Senator Wolcott. He had a little thing that I used to say over to jnyself which, as I recall, went something like this : For this I will maintain, until my d^'^ng day, sir. That whatsoever king may reign. I will be Vicar of Bray, sir. That does not prove anything. Mr. Williams. Yes. Senator Wolcott. I want to ask you this. Mr. Williams. Yes. Senator Wolcott. Has the soviet government ever undertaken to provide for a new constituent assembly? Mr. Williams. I only understand that in the negotiations that have Been going on from Litvonoff, the representative of the soviet at Stockholm, they are perfectly willing to call a constituent assembly. '. Senator Wolcott. They are willing to, but they ha\ e had over a year. What has this soviet government that is so desirous of per- mitting the Russian people to express their views and aspirations in the form of government and suggestion done toward calling together the constituent assembly and getting some kind of scheme so that the views of the people can be taken — anything? Mr. Williams. I have just stated that 90 per cent of the people — and I think it is 95 per cent — are voting with the soviet organiza- tion, and they have a right in the organization to determine any ques- tion of government. ^ Senator Wolcott. But they vote away down in the local soviet, and these great powers of the administration of the national govern- ment are administered away up on top, where they are removed from the people. They are really without any constitution, and have no charter of government and no plan of government except as they from day to day choose to devise one ; is not that the situation ? Mr. Williams. Xo ; I do not think that is a fair statement of the situation. Remember that they have worked out a constitution in their great All-Russian Congress of Soviets, and they debated a long time on their constitution. There is outlined a certain structure of the nation. For example, if anyone in Russia came and talked about the idea of a constituent assembly — again this is only opinion, you see — ^probably there would not be 10 per cent of the people in the towns who would want such a thing as a constituent assembly. Remembe]- that we have certain political notions of the Western Hemisphere — western notions. There were certain great Russian characters, among them Miliukov. who went to the Avestern nations and got an insight into western icleas, and their idea was that Russia should have the same kind of political constitution as exists now in the western nations, and they came back there with that idea. But so far as the people 670 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. themselves are concerned, when you talk about a constituent assemblv. they ars not enthusiastic about it: it means nothing: to them; it is only a word ; while when you say '' soviet " to them, that is a thinj; which immediately signifies something. They have taken part in it and they understand it. In other words, you have got to get unde: the skin of the vast masses of the Russian people. There you realize that though you use certain political terms which are wonderful words to us, drawing out our allegiance, they mean nothing at all to them. Senator AVolccitt. But it seems to me wonderful that the people in control now, having the desire to give the Russian people what they want, do not get up some sort of a scheme that takes into account thl' Russian people. It will not do for any man to set himself up and say. " I knoA\- I represent the wishes of the vast majority of the people.'' That is the way of all tyrants: they claim that they are doing the thing that the people want. Xow, the only thing to do that I know of is to count people on a proposition and see Avhat they want. But have these Bolsheviks adopted any step in that direction? Mr. Williams. But, Senator Wolcott, we worked out the soviet scheme of government the other day. You made a very good criti- cism of the scheme, but it certainly became apparent to you that through these voting agencies they have a regular system of election, and they are expressing their will : and I have shown you that the natural, spontaneous feeling of the people is toward this new sort of state apparatus. I mean, if the one thing that lingered in the minds of western people with regard to Russia at this time was an election, a grand constituent assembly like we have here, that we believe in, that if the American people, for example, would be convinced that in a great general election the people had a vote, whether they believed in a .soviet or not a soviet, I am sure that the Soviets of Russia would be willing to stand before the whole world and say, '" Let us have an election of that kind, and decide the kind of state apparatus we arc going to have, whether we shall have one like England or America, or Germany, or one like we have over here." Now, if that is the thing that rests back in your mind, that there ought to be a great general election all over Russia. I feel sure that such a representation could be made to the Soviets through the delegates to Prinkipo — Mr. White and ]\Ir. Herron. They Avould present to them very positively that the chief objection to the soviet government is the belief here that it represents nothing but a minority, that it has simply superimposed itself upon the people, and if the question were asked, " Are you willing to hold, openly and freely, an election in Russia in which the people will decide Avhich form of government they want ^ " I am quite sure that the Soviets of Russia would be willing to go to the country with such an election. Senator AVolcott. It looks to me very much like a case where a political party has gotten complete control, and they have told the people what kind of government they are going to have, and they have accepted it because there is nothing else to do. That does not appeal to me as a very good situation. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that the reason that the constituent assembly was dissolved was because it represented the whole mass ot the Russian people, 85 per cent, or approximately 8.5 per cent, ot BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 671 Avhom were peasants, and, as you stated a moment ago. the policy of the Bolsheviki is to give to the city control and domination equal to the control and domination and influence of the peasants themselves? ' Mr. Williams. Well, I think the reason that they dissolved it was as I have stated. We ought to remember how rapidly in revolu- tionary times come these changes in the minds of the people, as I have illustrated in the case of the peasants. To show how much changes went on in Russia, remember that there were only lOO Bolsheviks in the first All-Eussian Congress of Soviets. In the sec- ond congress the Bolsheviks had become the majority. In the third congress they were still overwhelming. In the fourth congress they began to drop back a little. Their strength is changing constantly. When the constituent assembly was gathering the peasants were moving over to the left. This radical attitude was not reflected in the constituent assembly. The constituent assembly had only about two-fifths of its members who were for all powei' to the Soviets. It is one of the theories of all statecraft, is it not, that after revolutions the people in power are the ones who make out the rules I for the convocation of the constituent assembly? The laws calling for the constituent assembly were made out by the elements in con- trol after the March revolution. If the people in control after the November revolution had been making out the rules, they would, for example, not have made the suffrage for those over 21 years of age — I believe that was the age limit fixed for the constituent assembly — but they would ha^e fixed the suffrage at 18 years of age, because practically every person between 18 and 21 would have voted origi- nally on the left tickets. By this change of rules in voting for the constituent assembly, the soviet parties would have had a large in- crease in delegates to any constituent assembly. Mr. Humes. Is it not important for the Bolshevik control that the workmen, so-called in the cities, should have representation equal to the peasants, in spite of the fact that they only have 15 per cent of the people represented in the organization? Mr. Williams. You see, the soA'iet revolution, the November revo- lution was made by the soviet workmen and soldiers. The peasant soviet had little or nothing at all to do with it. Then the peasant soviet, the great national soviet, wanted to join the workmen's and soldiers' soviet. The latter said, " You can come in and help to run the government, but you can only have 80 delegates to our 102." The peasants replied, " No, we demand the same voice in the gov- ernment of Eussia as the workmen and soldiers." They finally agreed that the peasants should have just the same standing as the workmen and soldiers. Of course, we know that ultimately the peasants are the ones that are going to decide what the condition of Russia is going to be, and I dq not for a moment believe that this present gov- ernmental system Senator Wolcott. How can they ever get to decide that when they are not going to be in the majority, if they are denied a majority? Mr. Williams. I believe that in the end the fair sense of the people will change that so that the peasants will have proportionate repre- sentation. The ultimate solution will be that they will have a larger proportion of votes than they now have. In revolutionary times you have got to have a revolutionary organ with flexibility and '672 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. plasiticity like the Soviets. The sailors and soldiers, with some of the workmen of the city, were the chief factors in making the revolution, and during the first days they had altogether a disproportionate representation in the soviet. Xow it has been extended so that the peasants have entered into it. I am sure that within the next two years they will have one vote for 100 per cent of the people over 18 years of age. Mr. Humes. Mr. Williams, is it not a fact that even in the so- called constitution of the soviet republic the representation of the • cities is based upon 1 to e\'ery 25,000, while among the peasants and in the provinces it is 1 to every 125,000? Mr. WiiOiiAMs. Yes; that is just the point I was making. Mr. HuJiES. In other words, in the fundamental law itself the ■cities have five times the representation that the peasants do, in proportion to their population ? Mr. Williams. Precisely. That is the point I brought out in try- ing to make the situation very clear. Mr. HuJiES. By incorporating that into the constitution for the future government of the republic, is there anything to indicate that there is a purpose on the part of the present government to equalize representation and to give the peasants equal representation with the cities, with the sailors and workmen ? Mr. Williams. The true objective of the Russian soviet republic, as I have just stated, is that they want within the next two years to give one vote for every person over 18 years of age, and if Eussia gets a stable government during this time and gets a constitution, I am quite sure that the disproportionate representation will be changed, otherwise Russia can not stand before the world as a true republic. • Mr. Humes. That is a promise of the future, however. Mr. Williams. Yes; it is. Mr. Humes. Now, proceed. Mr. Williams. I do not know how much further to proceed. I was just stating, Senator Wolcott, my contention that I want to bring home as far as possible, without in any way trying to gloss over any cruelties or any disorders, or trying to minimize any evils, the fact that over there in Russia there is a certain government called the soviet government; that it is a goA^ernment that is functioning and manifesting a certain definite power ; that it has a strong hold over the masses of the people, and that it is the only possible govern- ment for them — the only one that can function as a government. I just want to bring out one or two things. First of all, what has this government done? Well, I think that we in America, who are being staggered by the great job of demoblizing something like 4,000,000 soldiers, ought to have a little bit of_ sympathy with the task that was suddenly thrown upon this soviet state apparatus — the job of demobilizing 12,000,000 soldiers. That demobilization went on without unnecessary disorder beyond the shooting up of perhaps two or three railway stations which occurred here and there, making for the dislocation of the railway industry. Senator Wolcott. That went on, as a matter of fact, rather auto- matically, did it not? They demobilized themselves? Mr. WiLUAMS. That is exactly the point. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 673 Senator A'\^olcoi't. There 'was no burden throMn on tlie so^'iet government to demobilize them. They just quit. Mr. Williams. That is just the point. Suppose we let 4,000,000 soldiers loose over here. What do you suppose would happen, if we just turned them loose, to the Government apparatus that we have, as finely organized as it is? Senator Wolcott. The problem was not to demobilize them, but to take, care of them after they were demobilized, and the soviet had no great problem thrown on it to demobilize those soldiers; they demobilized themselves. Mr. Williams. That is the proposition for a soviet organization, to bring out certain integTating forces, organizing certain natural latent forces which we do not utilize. I would like to present here, as I will to you afterwards, one of the pamphlets that were given to the soldiers who demobilized, as they were going home from the trenches. It was written by a man who understood the soldiers. They resolved they were not going to fight any more, so they were provided with a certain pamphlet called the " Organization of Vil- lages." The soldiers were largely peasants. This pamphlet says, first of all, to the soldiers leaving the trenches, " You will go to Moscow or Petrograd. Do not spend all your time riding around on street cars. Street cars are too crowded already. Go to a certain place and there you will find the peasant headquarters. Ask for some literature. If you can not read it, ask a workingman to read it to you. If this fellow who has been working hard all day gets irritated, do not get, mad at him." Then it says, " Go up ito the soviet; it is your government, and if you can not shake hands with Lenine or Trotzky remember they are busy and are engaged with other things. Do not get angry at them." Then the pamphlet says : " Soldier on the train, do not spend all your time playing cards. Try to find two or three men from your local village and talk with them over the situation. If you can not read the pamphlets you have, ask some one who can read." Then, section 3, "Arriving in the village. Rest a day or two. Re- member that the people in the village have been far away from Mos- cow and Petrograd. You must not try to tell them everything you laiow at once. Try to find out what they are doing about vodka. Be sure that no vodka is being brought into the village to make the people drunk. See what you can do to organize a local military .detachment. See what the people are doing to their grain. Try to make them understand that the workmen in the cities are busy fight- ing their enemies, and they can not make plows, hoes, and rakes for the peasants, and that the peasants ought, therefore, to give them their bread, even though they can not get plows, hoes, and rakes until next summer," and so on like that. It was explained in the simplest fashion how they should de- mobilize and how they should go home, and for that reason that wonderful return of 12,000,000 men was accomplished with the mini- mum amount of looting and killing. Of course, there was some. I have ridden on trains where they had smashed the windows and where they would ride up on top of the roof of the car, but it was a wonderful tribute to the organization of the soviet that it could absorb back into the land and into industry 12,000,000 people. 85723—19 43 674 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. I will bring this talk, shortly, to a close. As I say, that is one of the burdens thrown upon the soviet state apparatus. I saw Prof. Lomomosoff in Chicago on Thursday, and he handed me a lot of stuff that has come over from Eussia in reference to the constructive work that is being done by the soviet government. Senator Wolcott. Who is he 1 Mr. Williams. Prof. Lomomosoff was one of the three men who were sent over under the Kerensky administration. He is a man who has written 15 volumes upon railroad administration. He is a Men- shevik, which is an anti-Bolshevik party. He has written some articles, showing why all Russians should cooperate with the soviet. He himself has worked out and has presented to me a whole lot of stuff on what the soviet is doing over there. I am just goinf^- to leave this with you. Senator Wolcott. Are those things that are projected? Mr. Williams. Some are projected, and some are accomplished. You may look them over. Senator Wolcott. You want to leave them, do you, for the com- mittee to examine ? Mr. Williams. I want the committee to examine them, or anyone else who wants to know about what is happening in Eussia at the present time to examine them. To pass on to the next thing, I said very definitely that there were 12,000,000 soldiers demobilized, as one of the tasks of the soviet. The second great task was the development of the cultural life. Here is a statement that was made by Maxim Gorky. I read it to you before, but if you will listen to it again, I can almost quote it. It seems to me a very strong statement. He says in effect this : I have as much right as any mau in Russia to spealv for the Russian iieoplo. I make the assertion that althou.sh I have lieen an opimnent of the soviet' government, and I am now in antagonism to many of its methods of worlv, I still state before all the world that the historians of the future will marvel at the cultural and creative work that the Russian people have done during the course of a year. This is no exaggeration. I know that the scope and tlie length and the depth of real, educational development that has been mani- fested under the soviet regime during this year will call forth the admiration of the world. In the second place, I would like to tell you what I saw of the cul- tural development in Eussia. I would like to have brought before the committee a certain Mrs. Tobinson, who comes from Habarosk. Her husband was president of the Far East Soviets. She will tell you in detail how they worked out the educational organizations there. She will tell you, for example, that they requisitioned all the pianos from the rich and they put them into a great building, and then into this great building they invited the peasants and workers' boys and girls. They assembled there and inside of three months they had a group of something like 500 students in that conservatory of music. She will tell how these teachers, who were only 18 or 20 years of age, worked out. away back up there in the woods, a Montessori system of education, and then put it into practice. I think you would be very much interested to hear her. There is the statement of Maxim Gorky, which was made 10 days ago, that Eussia, under the greatest handi- caps and under the greatest disorganization, has made tremendous strides in cultural and creative work, so that it will absolutely amaze BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 675 the world when they know about it. We can bring you here very shortly some of the publications and magazines to show what has been produced in Russia during the last year or so. May I add to that this other statement, the statement of Lloyd George, that any man who saw the figures that were involved in intervention would not for a moment consider it, because the Bolshe- viks, as he called them, are a strong military power, and they are growing. In answer, then, to a great many of the statements that have been made here by different men, who said tliat Russia is largely disorganized, and that anarchy and chaos reign, I submit that a great, growing cultural work, according to the testimony of Maxim Gorky, and a great and growing military power, according to the words of Lloyd George, simply can not subsist upon the sort of con- ditions described liere before this committee. You asked for something in a little reconstructive way. I am going to read you something which will probably get from one side of any people that read it the accusation that, after all, I am very much of an opponent to the soviet government, and it will get from the radical side and the socialists the accusation that I am a traitor and a renegade and ought to be ousted from their midst, but I will read you this because I think it has a little to do with reconstruc- tion as we face it here in America. Senator Wolcott. This is along what line? Mr. Williams. This is along the line of reconstruction. Senator Wolcott. In America, here? Mr. Williams. Senator Overman asked me as I left, " Well, have you any reconstruction ideas to offer ? " I have written out this thing, but it does not concern America so much, but only concerns the solution of the problem of discontent. Senator Wolcott. I do not know what was in Senator Overman's mind. Unfortunately he is not here, and I can not speak for him. This committee is appointed to investigate Bolshevik propaganda in this country, and how your views in regard to reconstruction in America can be at all pertinent to that inquiry I can not see. If what you are about to say is along that line you might leave what you have written here and let Senator Overman see it, and if he wants it to go in, of course I shall interpose no objection. Mr. Williams. Really, it has nothing to do with reconstruction in America. I took his request more as a spring board to jump from. Senator Wolcott. In other words, Mr. Williams, while I am al- ways interested to get people's views about different things, frankly I do not want to go outside of the limits of this investigation, be- cause I want to get done. Mr. Williams. This summarizes the Russian situation, and that is the reason I would like to read it instead of meandering all around it. I thought I could present it in a very complete form, and it would probably answer a few of your questions. It has nothing to do, practically, with America. Senator Wolcott. All right, I am relying on you to keep your testimony within the bounds of this investigation, and I have told you what it is — Bolshevism in Russia and its propaganda in this 676 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. count^3^ I will rely on you to observe good faith with me and keep within those limits. Mr. Williams. All the agitators in the world can not stir up dis- content in this country unless the soil is ready for the sowing of the seed of discontent. Unemployment is the chief danger threatening. People are unem- ployed because shops close down. Shops close down because the capitalist owners lack markets in which to sell their products. The socialist solution of this problem is to give each man the full product of his labor in order that he may have the means of buying back as much goods as he produces. Then there is no great sur- plusage which needs to go seeking foreign markets. But since we ha^'e no general present disposition to try socialism, let us consider the possibilities of capitalism. Capitalism is essentially expansi^'e and under the present system it must seek outside markets for its manufactured goods and must gain access to raw materials. Senator Wolcoti'. I do not want to hear that. You will have to submit that to the committee, and if tlie committee wants it to go in, all right. Personally I am not interested in your views as to what should be done in this country. I do not recall that we have had any witness who has given his \iews as to what ought to be done in this countr}^, and I do not want to open up that field. Mr. Williams. Well, all right. Senatoi' "Wolcott. TTnderstand, I do not want to shut you off on anything you have to say about Russia and Bolshevik propaganda in this country. I would not undertake to shut you off in the slight- est degree about that, and I think you will agree that the committee b.as alloAved you a free hand. We want to continue to do it. But that is not within the scope of the inquiry. Mr. WiLLiAjis. Then I will read you this other thing about Russia. Senator ^Volcott. How would it do for you to leave that state- ment here with the stenographer and let Senator Overman see it? It may be something he had in mind. Then let the committee say whether we want to put it in the record. Mr. Willia:ms. Prof. Lomomosoff, the railway expert of Russia, furnishes the following figures, just compiled. Russia has 17 per cent of the coal of the world, ?>1 per cent of the naphtha, 50 per cent of the iron, 56 per cent of the rye. 79 per cent of the hemp, and '21 2^er cent of the Avheat. After five years of war and revolution Russia needs every con- ceivable manufactured article. She can take all the output of Amer- ica for a long time to come, and she is able to pay for it in raw ma- terial, either here or at the American industries on the spot. True, the present soviet government is a handicap to the free, un- limited play of capitalistic interest in Russia because of the drastic laws for the protection of labor, but still it is the government of Russia, and we should examine the possibilities that lie in that situation. In the first place, the soviet government puts a tremendous value upon American technicians, engineers, administrators, etc. There is nothing in it which precludes the development of industrial life in Russia on a tremendous scale. Men of action, like Col. Thompson, BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 677 find nothing teiTifying in the soviet. On the contrary, big men -with creative instincts iind in it an instrnment admirably fitted for the accomplishment of big things. They see distinct advantages in the soviet. The thing that killed Harrinian vas not the managing of a great railroad, but its financing. Under the soviet system he does not need to worry about that. Great economic poAver is delegated to him precisely as we delegate great political power to outstanding individuals. The soviet puts its estimate upon big bi'ains and genius •by voting 50,000,000 rubles for foreign technical experts business administrators, engineers, etc., and it will give a fi'ee hand to these. It is apparent that the soviet system calls out the latent enthusi- asm of the people, effecting a release of the creative constructive energies of the masses. No one can say that of our system where the workman is interested more in his wages than in his work. Eussia unclei' the soviet offers, then, not only its vast wealth to work upon, but also the labor force, enthusiastic and alive, to work it with. With us the creative forces of big business, brains, and labor run at cross purposes. lender the so\iet the energies of men instead of being spent in quarreling over the division of the product can be wholly liberated for the task of bigger production. In the second place, admitting the impossibility of America deal- ing- with visionaries and fanatics, is that a correct view of the soviet government at present? The World of February 6 says : The main fact in tlie new situation is tliat the so-called nationalization of Russian industry puts industry back into the hands of the business class, who disguise their activities by giving orders under the magic title of " people's commi.ssars." In theory the liouruvoise are di'^fraucblsed, Inn actually they fire fast drifting back into control of Russian Industry and active participation in the state. Strangely enough all the revolts against the soviet are now di- rected from the anarchists and extremists who hold that the soviet, has become too conservative, centralized, and disciplined. Maj. Thacher, of the Red Cross, who had business dealings with the soviet government, even during the days of its headstrong and irreconcilable youth, found a quite possible relationship with it, and furthermore, can testify that large transactions were carried through in an honest and efficient manner. In the third place tire Russian people have been particularly kindly disposed toward America. Lenine himself has such a leaning toward America that he has often to fight with his party the charge of playing into the hands of American capitalists. Not that he loves American capitalists better than other capitalists, but he sees plainly that the safest alliance for Russia is one with distant America. He realizes that America has many things to teach the new industrial democracy of Russia, and we see him taking over the Taylor system and putting it into the new Russian order. While Russia was shocked to see America advancing with Japa- nese troops against the workmen's and peasant's government, still it realized that America had long delayed the invasion into Russia and laid a retarding hand upon it. Russia will not forget that England and France were the chief aggressors against her. 678 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. America has many potential agents in soviet positions. While it is not true that 265 out of 379 members of the Petrograd soviet came from America, there are perhaps '20 or 25 there, and in almost every soviet there are one or two immigrants who hold positions of influence. America has in Eussia probably 100,000 immigrants, .") per cent of whom, perhaps, hold positions of influence in the soviet. Their anti- American utterances were often for the consumption of the detec- tives and retainers who ran back to the consulates with tales of the' blasphemous anti- Americanism of these ingrates. But, in any event, there are probably 5,000 American agents, knowing the American language, American machinery, and American business methods, and bound back to America by a thousand different ties, placed at the stra- tegic points in Eussia. If Germany or Japan had such assets, would they not seek to use them rather than antagonize them ? Senator "\Yolcott. These Americans you speak of who were en- gaged in anti- American outcries, you say did so in order to have the tales carried back to America ? jMr. Williams. There are various reasons for that, Senator Wolcott ; some of them had certain grudges, some of them had suffered un- doubtedly very much, and when they came back to Eussia they told tales of what they had experienced. Senator Wolcott. They did engage in anti- American talk? Mr. Williams. Yes, they did; but they were more anticapitalistic than anti-American. But I know that these people are bound by a thousand ties back to America. Senator Wolcott. They show that in a very queer way. They show their ties to America by abusing America. That is strange to me. "Sir. Williams. They went back home and related what they had exj^erienced in America. Lincoln Steffens was asked this same ques- tion. They said to him : " Is it true that Americans who have returned to Eussia have told adverse tales about what they Avent through in America ? " Lincoln Steffens replied — I think this was in the Chicago City Club — " Yes ; I heard all of these tales, but I never heard any that were not true. Maybe some of them did harbor grudges which they ought not to have, but I know they very often said these things in the presence of a regular Government agent, in order to nettle or pique him. I know, on the other hand, that really most of the immigrants, while openly holding this position toward America. yet in their hearts took an entirely different attitude. They often boasted what America had done and what America could do, and said how a real alliance ought to be effected with America. No matter how much they said against America, they always said ten times more against Germany, or against England, or against France." The sug- gestion I am bringing to you. Senator Wolcott, is this — if it is true that there are, say, 5,000, 10,000 or 25,000 men who have been in America and know America and know American business methods, and know American machinery, I think that, from a business stand- point at anj' rate, America's job is not to antagonize them, but to utilize them in every possible waj-. I am sure that if Germany had 10,000 agents in soviet Eussia— ^and they had their agents there, undoubtedlv, I am not denving it : she must have had them — if Ger- BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGAls^DA. 679 iiiany had that number of trusted agents in Eussia, I am sure that she would utilize them. Senator Wolcott. Let me get your point. Your idea is there are ties in Eussia connecting her with America; that these ties consist of men who have immigrated into Eussia from America, and through those ties America could make valuable connections with Eussia; and yet these ties, which are of such value in building up intimate connections between Eussia and America, are at the same time en- gaged in abusing America. That seems to be, boiled down, your logic. Mr. Williams. The point is that they have abused America, but I have heard some of them Senator Wolcott. And yet we can hope to have them bring Eussia and America close together ? Mr. Williams. The point. Senator Wolcott, is that they abuse the abuses of America ; they abuse the evil things in America ; but they know that more evil things exist in France, in England, or in Ger- many. Therefore they have a certain great influence in affairs. The point is, Can America utilize these men ? Senator Wolcott. In other words, they dislike America less than they dislike others ? Mr. Williams. Yes. Senator Wolcott. That is a very frail. tie, I should say. Mr. Williams. I am just pointing out a possible use of them. The question is whether America is to antagonize them or whether America is to utilize them. In the fourth place, it is probably true that under the soviet government industrial life will perhaps be much slower in develop- ment than under the usual capitalistic system. But why should a great industrial country like America desire the creation and con- sequent competition of another great industrial rival ? Are not the interests of America in this regard in line with the slow tempo of de- velopment which soviet Eussia projects for herself? Senator Wolcott. Then your argument is that it would be to the interest of America to have Eussia repressed ? Mr. Williams. Not repressed — — Senator Wolcott. You say, Why should America desire Eussia to become an industrial competitor with her ? Mr. Williams. This is speaking from a capitalistic standpoint. The whole interest of America is not, I think, to have another great industrial rival, like Germany, England, France, and Italy, thrown on the market in competition. I think another government over there besides the soviet government would perhaps increase the tempo or rate of development of Eussia, and we would have another rival. Of course, this is arguing from a capitalistic standpoint. Senator Wolcott. So you are presenting an argument here which you think might appeal to the American people, your point being this, that if we recognize the soviet government of Eussia as it is constituted we will be recognizing a government that can not compete with us in industry for a great many years? Mr. Williams. That is a fact. Senator Wolcott. That is an argument that under the soviet gov- ernment Eussia is in no position, for a great many years at least, to approach America industrially ? G80 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Williams. Absolutely. It has no great ehaiue under any gov- ernment. It has no chance to develop industrially for years juid years to come. But the point is that the people of the soxiet governments are not obsessed with the idea of a gi-eat industrial country. They do not want to build it uj) suddenly. They are jierfectly cuntent to let Eussia remain agricultural to a large extent in the. future. In other words, they are content to produce certain raw materials, like wheat and other grains, etc., but their hearts are not set upon build- ing up a great industrial factory life. Peter Struve put it forcibly when he said that the Russian moujik is not anxious to be cdoked in a factory boiler. We find now in Petrograd aud Moscow at the present time that large numbers of the AAorkmen who have li\e(l there m the factories, and who ha\ c tasted factory life, are forming them- selves into little unions of ten, fifteen, or a hundred people and mov- ing back into the country again ; because, while we here for three gen- erations have got used to industrial life, they have not. The Russians instinctively react against it. and they are not anxious to have a rapid growth in the industrial organization over there. Mr. Humes. Mr. Williams, do you know Oscar Tokol '. Air. Williams. I met him in Finland : yes. Air. Humes. What was his connection with the soviet government there ? Mr. Williams. In Finland he has been a leader of the socialists and been also a speaker in the house. I know his case very well. Mr. HujiES. He has left the soviet form of government and de- nounced it as iuipi'acticable and impossible. Mr. Williams. Oscar Tokol never had the soviet form of govern- ment in Finland. He made a trip to Russia and lived there about three months or .so, and then at the end of that three months he issued a statement from Archangel, which was directed to Xuorteva. of the Finnish- American Bureau in .^nerica. to tell to the American- Finnish Socialists that he did not regard the condition in Russia at that time as being anything Imt very chaotic and very hopeless, and that the best thing to do was to make some sort of arrangement with the allies. Mr. HuJiEs. In other words, you left Russia in May, and on the 10th of September this man wrote a letter to the representative of the Finnish Government in this countiy, in which he made the fol- lowing statement [reading] : You over in Aniei'icii iO'e \w\ able to iiiiii^ine how UoiTiliU' tlie lite In Russia at tlie present time is. Tiie peiMod after tin-- French Itevolution surely must liave been as a life in a inirailise coniparod with this. Hunger, brigandage, arresls, and murders are such everyday events tliat nobody pays any attention lo flieui. Freedom of assemlilage, association, free speecli, and free i)ress is a far-awa.\' ideal, winch is altogether destroyed at the present time. Arbitrary rule and terror is raging everywhere, aud, what is worst of all, not only the terror proclaimed b,\' the government, but Individual terror as well. Now, that is a work of a man that has been in touch with the operation of the government and with the conditions in Eussia three months after you left Russia. Mr. WiLiiiAMs. Quite so. Mr. Humes. Do you question the truth of his statement as to con- ditions over there? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 681 Mr. Williams. I question it very much, knowing something about his mental state, yet knowing that what he saw would be an accurate reflection of that. But, of course, that Avas in September, and, natu- rally, things there were vei y chaotic. I think things were probably 'at their worst in September and October — very bad. Mr. Humes. They were worse in September and October than they were when you left in June? Mr. Williams. I think probably they were. ilr. Humes. Ave thev not now as bad as or worse than thev were ■? in Septembe Mr. Williams. The only thing that I can do Senator Wolcott. You do not know, do you ? Mr. Humes. But from your information? Mr. Williams. That is a fair statement — a fair reading of the thing. The only information I have is from the people that come from Russia. Mr. Yarros, of the Associated Press, and Mr. Keddie, who left on December 20, and they make statements about the situ- ation as they saw it there in Russia at that time. I think Mr. Keddie would be the most valuable of all witnesses, because he is a Quaker. Most of the time he has lived with the peasants. Tokol's letter was dated September 10, as you say, or probably a little bit later. But here we have, February 6, the last man that has come out of Russia, Eobert Minor, who is an anarchist. He has written some letters to the New York World in which he says that he is perfectly disgusted with the whole program, because there has come a change over the soviet government. It is represented in these letters as bringing dis- cipline and order into the life of the people; and he is disgusted with it. I would like to read sections from those letters or leave the letters with you. Senator Wolcott. Suppose you leave them here. Mr. Williams. Those give a different view of the conditions that prevail. He said that the most marvelous thing was that inside of the last eight weeks the whole people had submitted themselves to hard discipline, and that the former bourgeois merchant class was turning into managers of factories and stores, and that particularly in the military forces the whole machine worked like clockwork. He refutes the picture that Tokol gives. If it is a true picture, then the statement of Maxim Gorky showing Russia with a great and growing cultural life, and the statement of Lloyd-George showing Russia as a great and growing military power, could hardly be true. Tokol's letter must be taken as a reflection of the awful period they passed through in September and October, when the reign of terror was on. This is probably the fair way to adjust the discrepancies between different witnesses. Mr. Humes. Mr. Williams, just one or two more questions. Did you go to Russia as a newspaper correspondent or as a writer — in what capacity? Mr. Williams. On the credentials of the New York Evening Post. Mr. Humes. Were you financed by them ? Mr. Williams. No; I was not. Mr. Humes. You were in Russia for a year ? Mr. Williams. Yes. '682 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. How much of that time were you in the service of the Russian Bolshe\ik government l Mr. Williams. Just about five weeks; maybe eight weeks. Mr. HxTMES. You testified Saturday that you had recei\'ed 300 rubles for certain work that you did '. Mr. Willia:\is. Yes. Mr. Humes. Did you ever receive any other compensation from the Eussian government? Mr. Williams. I am not exactly sure. I think 580 rubles would ■cover it. Perhaps the right to stay in the Xational Hotel at a re- duced rate, and perhaps a reduced rate on a ticket on the Trans- Siberian line. Mr. Humes. That is the only compensation you received, and the rest of your expenses you financed yourself ? Mr. Williams. I do not want to incriminate Maj. Robins or have him shoulder me, but I owe him 6,000 rubles, borrowed from him in Russia, and which he has my note for. I am hoping that the price of rubles will go down. Mr. Humes. I was not concerned as to whom you borrowed money from. I was interested in whom you were employed by. Were you employed by him, or were your relations purely that of a loan? Mr. Williams. That was a loan. Mr. Humes. Then, while you had credentials from the New York Evening Post, your compensation all came from the Bolshevik gov- ernment or from Mr. Robins? Mr. Williams. The outside compensation that I got from the Bolsheviki would be $60. The only reason I took that was to get inside the organization and to operate inside the propaganda de- partment in getting literature over into Germany and to organize this International Legion against the Germans. So that represents the totality of my income and the totality of any expectations of the Soviet government. Mr. Humes. You expected further compensation from them when you opened an information bureau ? Mr. WiLi^TAMS. If I opened an information bureau, the money was to be supplied through American channels, and was to come in regular diplomatic relation. Everyone knows that the salarv of every commissar in the Russian Government is 600 rubles, which is about $60. In other words, you know the theory of the present order of society over there is that no man shall have cake until everybody has Ijread, and that if a man shall not work neither shall Tie eat. There is one of the great holds of the Eussian soviet com- missars on the people. We do not understand that, but it is true that under the Kerensky regime the workingman demanded higher and higher wages, but under the soviet government they put a stop to that immediately. The commissars were receiving at the outside $60 a month, and so people turned to the workmen demanding higher wages, and said, " Do you want a larger salary than Lunacharsky or Kollontay or Lenine or Trotsky ? " That put a stop to this constant demand for higher wages. In the National Hotel, where I once lived, they had elaborate menus. But when this hotel was taken over by the soviet government and Lenine and other commissars lived thero, the policy BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 688 was changed. We had for our meals either soup and kasha or soup and meat. They had tea, of course. Without tea the revolution and everything else in Eussia would go to pieces. Mr. Humes. Has the government taken over all the hotels ? Mr. Williams. Three "hotels in Moscow. Mr. Humes. To rvin commercially or to be used by government agents? Mr. Williams. For the government conuuissars and soviet dele- gates, although, I think, possibly some of the hotels have now been taken over by the government to run commercially. Mr. Humes. There has been a good deal said here with reference to contributions that were exacted by these $60-a-month men. What do you know about that? Mr. Williams. You mean whether, after all, if the soviet Mr. Humes. Graft, as we call it in this country. I notice they use the more dignified term " contributions " in Russia. Mr. Williams. Now, concerning all the leaders of importance, I think most everybody that has been before this committee will say that they are men of absolute integrity. They are absolute idealists, whether you agree with them or not. They were not afraid of re- sponsibility, not afraid to die, and not afraid of work — which is the most remarkable thing in Eussia. Against these men no one can point the finger of accusation. Now, to what extent is there a basis for the charge of " graft " ? Speaking in general terms, when the soviet government took over the power of the government there rode into office those people who got jobs simply because they could read and write. At the beginning, as has been pointed out, the soviet government was sabotaged by the intelligentsia. They did not help the peasants and workers in their great task. So there came into the soviet many grafters and criminals. It is undoubtedly true that these men, carrying soviet credentials, went around and levied some of these contributions, so called. You can call them " contribu- tions " or " graft." The large bulletins themselves announced that 40 per cent of the men who were shot during the red terrors were soviet officials who had been found guilty of bribery or theft. Senator Wolcott. Do you know of your own knowledge of any that were shot? Mr. Williams. I do, indeed. I went one time to a building on Gowchovaya. My host had two or three bottles of champagne on the table and was talking Avith great eclat to his comrades across the way. With dramatic importance he said, " We will all go down in history as makers of this revolution." He went next day to a mov- ing-picture show and closed it up. About two days later the pro- prietor came around to him and gave him two or three thousand rubles and he opened up the moving-picture establishment again. I know that four days after that they took him and three other culprits off to prison. Later on some of these men were very ruth- lessly and summarily shot. The official notices state that 40 per cent of the people shot in the red terror were corrupt soviet officials. The last word we have now is that any soviet official found drunk or under the influence of liquor is going to be shot. There are many cases of that kind. 684 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. HujiES. Do I uaderstand that capital punishment is to be in- flicted for drinking? Mr. WiLLiAjr.s. So far as the soviet officials are (■(mcerii^'d. No man ^^•ho is a soviet official can be found drunk. The law is as drastic as that. Mr. Humes. Is not that a pictty severe law for the government that fought its predecessor because it had in effect capital punish- ment ? ^Ir. WiLLiAsis. Very se^'ere, undoubtedly, because very difficult circumstances sometimes demand very severe and drastic measures. I have heard a great many of the tales and stories that have been told about Eussia and what happened in some of the Soviets of the Bolsheviki, but some of the best tales have never been told. For example, thcie is a story of a commissar that went down to the town of Rostof. He felt highly elated over the fact that he had got a great commission from Trotzlrv? to take care of the military affairs, so when he got into the town of Taganrog he walked into the soviet with a brace of pistols. He held a pistol in his hand as he read a proclamation. At the end of evei'v sentence he shot a bullet into the ceiling to punctuate his remarks. That is a good story that comes with a sort of grotesque thrill out of the dead gray level of the Eus- sian revolution. But it is absolutely untypical of what, in general, is occurring over there. What is happening over there is this : A great people, numbering 150,000,000. have suddenly broken their fetters and come into the light. They were blinded by the light for a while, but with earnestness they have gone into this grim, hard business of reorganizing human life upon a basis of justice, and with the ideal of a new brotherhood of man. Some one said, I believe, in the testimony, that they are aiming at heaven, but they are going through hell to get it. Well, I think there is" a measure of truth almost in that statement, just as we know to deliver a child into the world there are tremendous throes of siiffering and sacrifice. We Iniow that in our own revolution this country was in a state of disorganization for something like eight years, but out of those birth throes there did come a better order. So that anyone who will focus his mind only upon the lunacy and the horrors incident to the revolution is doing himself an injustice. While he gazes upon these superficial things he has not discovered the real thing — the great elemental, spontaneous movement of the people toward justice. It is a most remarkable fact that all the Americans that went out really to help the Eussian people, who went, into the soviet and worked with the soviet, who had first-hand knowledge, Avho knew the leaders in the soviet, although they know all the stories of the anti- soviet witnesses, yet will giAe you an interpretation of what happened in Eussia different from those Americans who did not know the soviet from the inside. They will come here and tell you that the soviet government is a tremendously honest effort to reor- ganize society. All men love the things they help and understand them better. At the time that the workers and peasants armed them- selves, and as the Eed Guard went out to fight the Germans, Jerome Davis, of the Y. M. C. A., went out with a car of supplies. Another man named Humphries actively participated. These men went to BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 685 help the people, and therefore had a good chance to understand them. They laiew what was really going on in Russia, and therefore will come here and give you different testimony from what you have received. The American Red Cross distributed tens of thousands of cans of condensed milk. They gave other things to the people, work- ing directly through the soviet. It is a remarkable fact that in working through the Soviets the Red Cross men not only came to understand the Soviets, but they have attained an attitude of sym- pathy and belief in the Soviets. Most remarkable is the work of the (Siuaker society. The Quakers get closer to the people than anyone else. They live out among the peasants. They try to help the people. And all those Quakers, without exception, are strong, fine men, who see a big human field for work in the Soviets. Every one of them has faith in the soviet as an institution. Mr. Keddie, in his report, says that the peasants through this institution during the last two years have absoluely changed their attitude toward life ; he says that it is most interesting to see how the masses of the peasants have learned to express themselves for the first time. The mere fact is that all the people, without exception, who helped the Russian people and co- operated with the Soviets, and got down under the skin of the thing, give different testimony from those who merely stood off and looked upon it as a spectacle, but did not get into it. Senator Wolcott. I do not recall that any witnesses have foimd fault with the soviet form of government. I do not recall that any witnesses have assailed that form of government, except perhaps the crowd that is running that government. Mr. Williams. They have. Senator Wolcott. Your view is that those practices are not so e.xtensive — sufficiently extensive — to be characteristic? Is that your view? Mr. Williams. Precisely. Senator Wolcott. The other Avitnesses take a different view. Mr. Humes. Now. Mr. Williams, you ha^e been quoting Jerome Davis. I call your attention to a sentence or two from an official report of Jerome Davis. [Reading :] In traveling on tlie trains and in tlie villages and on the steamers, one can almost never find any one wlio is in favor at the Bolshevik! regime. Even' many of the Bolsheviks who are in power realize that their days are numbered, but content themselves with the thou.slit that the longer they hold the power, the more chance there is of a revolution in some foreign country. For this reason many of the prominent Bolsheviks have sent their wives out of the country. Mr. Williams. What is the date of that. Major ^ Mr. Humes. I can not tell you the exact date. It is after he left Kussia. Mr. Williams. That is very interesting. May I ask you, is it pos- sible to call him in here and let him give the whole general view of the situation? He Aery specially states that he is not a Bolshevik. I know that in the last article he wrote in the Survey, about working with the commissars, he gave a different viewpoint from what you have read. One can take out isolated sentences here and there from a report, but they would not be characteristic. Mr. Humes. Would there be any reason to believe that an official report of Mr. Davis put into this record would not be as authentic 686 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. as his testimony if he appeared ? Is he not telling the truth in official reports that he makes to the Government of' the United States'^ Mr. WiLLiAais. Yes; if you put in the Avhole report it will be fair, but not to put in isolated parts of the report. I traveled about upon railroads and steamships and other lines of travel, and I came out over the Trans-Siberian line. I talked with people I met along the line — the officials — and I found a great many with anti-Bolshevik sentiments. When I arrived in Vladivostok T talked with an attache at American consulate. He told me that his impression was that the railway men were anti-soviet as a whole. I told him that I had precisely the same view. Then I looked up the matter, and I found that the so-called Vikzhidor, which is the central committee elected by all the railroad workers, was composed of 42 members. In it there were 28 Bolsheviki, 10 left social revolutionists, and 4 from the parties of the right. Thirty-eight out of 42 were for the Soviets. Why was it that I got that impression of anti-sovietism and he got this impression, which was Just contrary to the truths Well, it was simply that we talked with a certain upper-class group — the station men. the conductors — and those men reflected their class sentiment. But the masses of the workers that were down below, \\ horn we nevei' got in contact with — the track hands, switchmen, and freigiit men — those men held an entirely different viewpoint. They had a different color of mind. It is true that if you go upon the railways and the steamships in this country, go upon any train and pick up the fir.st 10 men that you meet with and ask them about the soviet government of Eussia, 8 out of 10 might tell you that those men ought to be strung up. But go down into the industrial section of the city, go to a labor meeting, and talk about the soviet government of Eussia, and you will find a different reaction. Workmen particularly feel that the soviet is something that is working toward a better society. So it is in Eussia. Talk with a travelins; man and he has a certain view- point, a point which is expressed by those men whom he has come in contact with on trains and in the hotels. But take the great mass of workers, and the masses of the lower people ; they have another point of view. Senator Wolcott. How are your lecture tours financed in this country ? I mean, of course, by lecture tours, to confine the phrase to those in which you engage in talking upon Eussia, concerning the Bolsheviki and the soviet government. I do not know whether you talk on other subjects or not. Mr. Williams. I felt that the one thing that I wanted to do was to put over the Eussian situation to the American public, and in put- ting it over to the public my attitUvTe has been this. For example, hei'e is one man telling one part of the situation. Well, now, it is very nice to go in and take a general all-around view of the situation. It is like roAving a boat with two oars ; that is the normal way. But when everybody is rowing on one side one ought to get in and row with all his might on the side where no (me else is rowing. I have lieen rowing on the side where nobody, or very few, have been rowing. There are only a few of us that have been emphasizing the constructive and posi- tive side of soviet government. That is not a very popular side to take, because, as a rule, you can not get on the lyceum-chautauqua bureaus, etc. On the other hand, there has been such a desire to find BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 687 out the facts that there has been a continuous demand for my services. So I have talked particularly to the middle class, educated audiences. The Military Intelligence, if it desires to find out all the facts in the case, ought to look over my books and see where my checks come from. If you do that you will see that most of my checks come from economic leagues, forums, city clubs — not very much from the city clubs,, though, but from different organizations of the people. The city of Washington, for example, has done very well by me. For the Poll's meeting they gave me a good stipend. The next day after the article appeared in the newspaper here " Urges red America," which even. the Attorney General said was not a true statement of the Poll meet- ing, there were so many people that felt indignant over the misrep- resentation of the situation at the Poll's meeting that they came to- me on the street and gave me money. One was a captain of the Amer- ican Army. He gave me $10, and he said : " I would like to back up- that sort of thing, trying to tell the truth as a man sees it." So I have received sums of $10, $25, and $30 from people who say they want me- to go on with the work of trying to tell the truth about Russia. For example, I have been in Chicago this last week. There was a big- meeting there of the Workers' Institute. They charged 15 cents ad- mission and about 6,000 people paid it. They were very much inter- ested in the Russian situation. From that meeting I received $160.. And then in the Chicago City Club, where assemble the business men, who could afford to pay for the meeting, I spoke the next day, and I got a 65-cent dinner out of it. Senator Wolcott. I do not know what you call it in the Army, this intelligence service of the Army, and I do not know what records they have. Have you any information along that line concerning the- financing of Mr. Williams, so to speak? Mr. Humes. I have made no inquiry at all. Senator Wolcott. You see, an order was issued some time ago by the Secretary of War directing all members of the Military Intelli- gence not to give out any information unless the Secretary of War approved it, and I have no information what their tiles show. Mr. Williams. So you want me to constitute myself an intelligence bureau and report upon myself to the committee ? Senator Wolcott. I want to know. You have mentioned the Economic League, of Boston ; you say you get contributions f rom- people who are interested — like the captain of the Army whom you spoke of — and you get a fee or stipend from such meetings as that; which was held in Chicago. Now, is there a regular source? Mr. Williams. No ; it is a very irregular source. The most regular income is from a certain pamphlet called " The Bolsheviks and the iSoviets," from which I think! get one-half a cent a copy for every one that is sold. Senator Wolcott. That is from the sale of your writings. Mr. Williams. Then I have a certain income from articles I have ivritten for the New Republic, Nation, etc. Senator Wolcott. You get paid for the articles you write, gen- erally speaking? Mr. Williams. Yes., Senator Wolcott. Is there any other organization that supplies you with funds ? 688 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Williams. Xone at all. Senator Wolcott. Tlie Boston Erononiie League lias, lias it not; Mr. Williams. Xo; that is merely a fee. We had a Russian night up there in which Mr. Mansfield, of the Enssian- American Chaiiioer of Commerce, and Mr. Thacher and Mr. Olgin and myself were invited — a symposium. Senator Wolcott. It is not a regular salary they give you '. Mr. Williajms. No, sir. Senator Wolcott. I am asking you these questions nol out of anv idle curiosity. It is the duty of the committee to find out how any propaganda, if there is any such, is supported, and the sources froiii which any funds for its support may come. Mr. WiLLiAjis. So far as I know, there has not been one cent e\er arrived in America from Russia for piopaganda purposes. I under- stand that Mr. Nuorteva received $10,000 from a Finnish source. that probablj' came ultimately baclv from iloscow. which wns sent here and which went into the hands of the Naval Intelligence, and then went ^mder contiol of Secretary Polk. I do not know whether he has or has not decided that Mr. Nuorte\a can have that $10,000; but if there is any question of Bolshevik propaganda in America he is the man who knows about it and can give you an account, and he is the man I think you ought to hear before the committee, if I may presume to make any suggestion. On the other hand, may I ask if the scope of the hearing was not to take in all political parties and what they are doing for propa- ganda in America ? We know that there exists a tremendous propa- ganda Senator Wolcott. Have you a copy of the resolution here? Mr. Williams. No, sir. Senator Wolcott. I do not recollect that the resolution is that broad. Mr. WiLi.iAMs. I believe that it is as broad as that. What a great section of the American public are interested in knowing is, what are the sources of the propaganda funds that have been used so largely toward stirring up intervention in Russia, which everybody now believes has become such a futile thing and such a fiasco. Senator Wolcott. That certainly is not within the scope of the reso- lution. My idea is that the resolution covers Bolshevism and any propaganda that might be carried on in this country in its favor. Mr. Williams. I understood that the resolution was so worded that it says, " anj' political group in Russia that is agitating in America." Senator Wolcott. No; I do not think it is as broad as that. Mr. Williams. I may be wrong on that: but while you are speak- ing of the propaganda funds — has anyone here a copy of the resolu- tion? May I just say again that your investigation, if it goes down to the root, will probably find that $10,000 has been sent to America for an information bureau to state the facts about Russia and Fin- land ; and on the other hand, the people of the country are very much interested in knowing about whence the so-called Russian informa- tion bureau, which has conducted a tremendous propaganda on the other side, derives its funds, and how it expends its funds, and who are its agents ; and there is a demand in certain parts of the country to know whence those funds are forthcoming and for what purpose they are being issued. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 689 Mr. HuMKS. Do you know whether or not any of the — I think it was — 2,000,000 rubles that was appropriated for propaganda pur- poses was expended in this country ? Mr. Williams. The 2,000,000 rubles were voted in 1917 and the International Propaganda Bureau was established, of which Rein- stein was made the head. They published, with those 2,000,000 rubles, three pamphlets in French and English. They are pamphlets which explain the situation in Russia. I do not Iniow of but one of those pamphlets ever coming to America. Of those 2,000,000 rubles, 99.9 per cent — ^I have worked it out to a figure — were spent upon lit- erature in the languages of the German and Austro-Hungarian Em- pires. The theory of the Soviets' propaganda was this : "A relentless warfare we will wage against those who wage a warfare against us." They waged warfare only against those attacking them. The propaganda was concentrated against Germany and Austro-Hun- gary. They have tried to get some into France and England, because these countries were leading the attack upon the soviet government. There has never been any particular attempt to get propaganda into America because the soviet government regarded America as not maintaining any great threat against them. They realize that Amer- ica has taken an attitude of fairness and tolerance, on the' whole. Therefore they have exempted her from the scope of their propa- ganda. Of course you know, Senator Wolcott and Mr. Humes, that it is hard to distinguish between a propaganda bureau and an information bureau. I was specifically told that if the Russian soviet govern- ment should ever establish a revolutionary information bureau in America it should not in any way voice the idea of any Russian po- litical party, but that it should explain exactly the constructive and creative work that is going on in Russia under these circumstances. For that reason they prepared in Russia a great moving-picture reel, which all the artists of the Moscow Arts Theater cooperated in producing, and it is a very beautiful and a very interesting thing. It shows the backgrounds of Russian life. The Military Informa- tion Bureau has also two reels showing what is going on in Russia now, the building of railroad stations and the drilling of the new army, and the various undertakings of the cooperative societies. Mr. Htjmes. I think we discussed those railroad stations on Satur- day, did we not? T hnve forgotten whether they were under discus- sion while you were on the stand or whether it was with one of the other witnesses. Mr. Williams. Probably some other witness. I do not remember. Mr. Humes. One of those railroad stations is in Moscow, is it not? Mr. Williams. I do not know about the details of the film. Mr. HtTMES. You have not seen it ? You do not Imow what is on that subject? Mr. Williams. I know. that there are films of that sort. Mr. Humes. If it is the Moscow railroad station on that film, it is now in the same condition as it was in when the great war broke out, is it not ? Mr. Williams. Yes ; if that is the case ; probably. Senator Wolcott. Are there any other questions? Mr. Williams, do you want to say anything further ? 85723—19 44 690 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Williams. I think that I have said about everything that is in my mind. The only thing is, if I can enter a plea - Senator Wolcott. You are not on trial, you know. Mr. Williams. Well, if I could enter a plea to the members of the committee it would be a plea that at this time— ^I can imagine, for example, in England during the French Revolution a committee listening to all the reports upon the situation in France at that time, and I can imagine the difficulties of them making any final decision, making any final report, upon the situation, and I know what a ter- rible judicial responsibility thej^ had. We Imow that 100 years after that event happened, at this time, we regard it as a momentous and tremendous event in history which has had, despite its cruelties and brutalities, a great effect, and conferred a great blessing upon human society. Most of the committees in London at that time would have pronounced it as being a good deal of an orgy of violence and bloodshed. I hope that this committee will hear enough witnesses to get a different interpretation of the events that have gone on in Russia, and so that our country will not have, 50 years from now, to be shamefaced, or have to apologize, for a judgment upon the Russian revolution which was a judgment made upon the appearance, upon the sounds and externals, and which was not a right judgment, or was a judgment that missed the real spirit and the real ideal of the Russian revolution. That is all. I only hope that the Senators will some way or other find it possible to call some of these witnesses that we have asked for. Senator Wolcott. Assuming that this committee should make some kind of a finding, I am afraid that your estimate is much higher of the historical value of it than 50 years from now it will probably have. I rather think that 50 years from now whatever this committee may find will have been forgotten. Mr. WiLUAMs. I know. Senator, but it is of tremendous conse- quence at the present time, when the American people are hearing stories on one side and then hearing stories on the other side. They do not hear the judgment of men who have heard all the stories from all the sources, so that any judicial utterance which you would make upon the situation in Russia at the present time would be of tre- mendous value in setting their minds aright. Then we could take some definite action to some definite purpose; because we are faced not with a theory but with a set of facts, and the facts at the present time are that intervention has been declared out of court. I have heard no reference to what is being prepared for Russia in various ways, but I think, on the whole, most people in this country think that intervention has been declared a failure. The second suggestion made is to draw a sort of cordon around Russia and hold her. as it were, incommunicado, and slowly tighten the strangle hold on her until she will have to give up. Senator Wolcott. This committee is certainly not inquiring into the proper thing to do with Russia. Mr. Williams. I was only hoping that we could get the truth about Russia so that the people who did not want either one of these poli- cies might have the material at hand so that they could determine on ■unother doHcv. BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 691 Senator Wolcott. But if there is anything further you want to say about conditions in Russia under the soviet rule, we will be glad to have you go ahead and do so. Mr. Williams. No ; I think, Senator, that I have given most of my ^iews, and I will just submit to you some of these printed papers, which you can use or not use, as you choose. Senator Wolcott. Pick out from your files what you want and hand them over to Mr. Hum^. These articles from the New York World you want, I take it. Senator Overman does not know when he wants to call the subcom- mittee again ? Mr. Humes. No, sir. Senator Wolcott. We will now stand adjourned, subject to the call of the chairman. (Thereupon, at 4.45 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee adjourned, subject to the call of the chairman.) BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. WEDNESDAY, MARCH 5, 1919. United States Senate, sijecommittee of the committee on the judiciakt, Washington, D. U. The subcommittee met, pursuant to the call of the chairman, at 10.30 o'clock a. m., in room 226, Senate Office Building, Senator Lee S. Overman presiding. Present: Senators Overman (chairman), Nelson, and Sterling. On March 3, 1919, the Senate agreed to the following resolution (S. Ees. 469), which had been submitted by Mr. Overman on Febru- ary 26, 1919, and on February 27 reported, without amendment, from the Committee to Audit and Control the Contingent Expenses of the Senate: Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary, conducting, by subcommittee, under resolutions of the Senate numbered three hundred and seven and four hundred and thirty-six, investigations of German propaganda and Bolslievilc propaganda, be, and they are hereby, authorized and directed to continue said investigations until the expiration of one calendar week from the commence- ment of the first session of the Sixty -sixth Congress ; to sit in Washington or elsewhere during the period between the end of the Sixty-fifth Congress and the beginning of the Sixty-sixth Congress and thereafter during the sessions or recesses of the Senate, and to report in the first session of the Sixty-sixth Congress ; and the authority for the incurring and payment of the expenses of said investigations, whether incurred in Washington or elsewhere, is hereby extended for the same length of time. Senator Overman. Miss Beatty, are you ready to go on now ? Miss Beattt. Yes, sir. TESTIMONY OF MISS BESSIE BEATTY. (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) Mr. Humes. Where do you live, Miss Beatty ? Miss Beattt. In New York; 132 East Nineteenth Street. I am from San Francisco originally. Mr. Humes. How long have you resided in New York, and what is your business ? Miss Beatty. I am editor of McCall's Magazine. I have resided in New York since August of last year. Mr. Humes. It is my understanding that during the last few years you have spent some time in Russia. During what period of time were you in Russia ? , Miss Beatty. I went to Russia in the spring of 1917, leaving San Francisco on the 2d of April, and I came back in February. 693 694 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. That is February, 1918 ? Miss Beattt. Yes. Mr. Humes. I assume that you mean that you arrived in this coun- try in February? Miss Beaity. Yes. Mr. Humes. When did you leave Russia ? Miss Beattt. I left on the 26th of January, immediately after the dissolution of the constituent assembly. Senator Overmax. You do not mean last January? Miss Beattt. Yes; January, 1918. Senator 0^■ERMAN. Immediately after what? Miss Beattt. After the dissolution of the constituent assembly. ^Ir. Humes. By what route did you leave Russia ? jMiss Beattt. By way of Finland, and then through Sweden and Norway. Mr. Humes. By what way did you enter Russia? Miss Beattt. By Siberia. Mr. HujtES. By way of Vladivostok? Miss Beattt. No ; by Harbin, through Korea. Mr. Humes. You were in Russia for eight months, then, prac- tically ? Miss Beattt. Yes. Mr. Humes. When did you arrive, with reference to the March revolution of 1917? It was after that? Miss Beattt. Yes; it was after that. I arrived early in June. I think it was the 3d or 4th of June that I reached Petrograd. j\Ir. Hu:\[ES. Then you were there only between six and seven months ? Miss Beattt. Xo ; I was there eight months. Mr. Humes. If you arrived 6arly in June and left on the 22d of January Miss Beattt. I arrived during the first week of June and left the end of January. That is eight months, is it not? June, July, Au- gust, September, October, November, December, and January; eight months; yes. Mr. Humes. Now, during your time in Russia what localities did you visit? Miss Beattt. I lived in the war hotel in Petrograd. That was the Astoria, the military hotel. I kept my room there for eight months. I went across Siberia first of all; and then I went to Mos- cow and down the Volga River to Nijni Novgorod in the summer time. I spent two weeks on the Russian front, part of the time in the trenches with the regular Russian Army. Senator Nelson. You say you went down the river to that place — ■wliat is it called ? Miss Beattt. No. I went to'Dvinsk ; to what they called the west- ern front. Senator Nelson. On the western front? Miss Beattt. Yes. From there I went to Maladetschna, where the woman's regiment was stationed, and was in barracks with them lor nearly a week. Mr. Humes. What was the situation in Russia when you arrived there? Economically, from the standpoint of government, and from BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. * 695 the standpoint of military rule, military control, Ithe question of terrorism, disorder, what was the general situation ?l Miss Beatty. The general situation was pretty bad. The country was, of course, economically broken down. It had been broken down by more than three years of war and the further bi'eaking down that goes with revolution. I believe that 50 per cent of the rolling stock of the railroads was out of commission at the time of the March revolution, and, of course, that made things very bad. Kerensky was the head of the ministry, the premier, and there were daily clashes in the cabinet, with men resigning and new men coming in all the time. From the military standpoint, the country was in a very bad way. The day I arrived they tried to have a patriotic demonstration for the purpose of keeping Russia in the war, but it was a total failure. The Eussians had made up their minds that they were not going to fight, even as early as that. Senator Steelikg. Was this in Petrograd? Miss Beatty. Yes; in Petrograd. Senator Steeling. This demonstration? Miss Beatty. Yes; just in front of the war hotel, where I stayed. This was the day I arrived. Senator Sterling. This was in June, 1918? Miss Beatty. Yes ; about June 4. Senator Sterling. June, 1917, 1 mean. Miss Bbatt'y. 1917 ; yes. Senator Nelson. How long did you stay there at that hotel? Miss Beatty. I stayed there eight months — kept my room there all the time I was in Russia. Senator Nelson. How did you get the chance to go to these fronts that you speak of? Miss Beatty. I went in and out. I went to the front and came back to Petrograd, and I went to Moscow and came back to Petro- grad. Petrograd was the center of everything. It was the seat of all these changing governments, so we made it our headquarters. Senator Nelson. You spoke about Dvinsk. Where is that? Miss Beatty. It is on the western front — to the west. Senator Nelson. On the border of Poland, is it not? Miss Beatty. No; it is to the side of the border of Poland. Vilna was the nearest point on the front in Poland. That had been taken by the Germans; was held by the Germans at this time. Senator Sterling. Was this Russian regiment of women you speak of the famous so-called Battalion of Death? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Overman. There was a lady here — what was her name? Miss Beatty. Botchkareva. She was the commander of the regi- ment. Senator Oveeman. Was she the same lady that came to this country ? Miss Beatty. Yes, Senator. Senator Oveeman. Have you heard that she had been killed since she was over here; that she had gone back to Russia and had been killed? Miss Beatty. No. 696 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator OvEikMAN. I heard that she had been. . Miss Beatty. I do not know about that. Senator 0\'erSiIan/^ What was the other name that she was called by?_ Miss Beattt. They called her the natchalnik, which means com- mander. Senator Overmax. This is outside of the question, but let me ask you, did these women as soldiers fight pretty well ? Miss Beatty. Very, from all accounts. I visited the hospital after the battle. I saw a great many of them in the hospital who had been wounded, and everybody said they fought very well. One of the girls I knew there was only 16. She was wounded in 16 places, and died of her wounds in the hospital. Senator Steeling. How were they equipped ? How did that regi- ment seem to be equipped with arms? Miss Beatty. They were equipped just as the men were. The equipment was very slow in coming. I was in barracks when they expected to get away, and each day the equipment was delayed. The whole thing was an adventure, and was based on an entirely false premise. The women thought that by shaming the Russian men they could make them fight. They failed to understand that the men had a philosophy underneath their refusal to fight. They said, " Why should we fight our brothers in Germany ? They were whipped into the trenches by their ruler, the Kaiser, just as we were whipped into the trenches by our ruler, the Czar. Let them make a revolution, as we have done, and then we will all live peaceably to- gether." That was the point of view they had. It was not a ques- tion of cowardice; it was just a difference of philosophy. Senator Sterling. From what kind of philosophy and what kind of an organization did that point of view emanate,? What class of people were thej% socialists ? Miss Beatty. You see, in Russia practically everyone is a social- ist. You have probably heard of the constituent assembly. In the constituent assembly the men were as far apart as the North Pole and the South Pole, but everybody was a socialist. Except for the little group of people at the topj they are all socialists. The question is simply what kind of socialist j'ou are, rather than whether or not you are a socialist. Senator Sterling. But all were in favor, apparently, of a con- stituent assembly, were they not; that is, all in the Duma, anyhow, including the strong or radical socialists in the Duma, were in favor of a constituent assembly ? Miss Beatty. Yes. The disagreement about the constituent as- sembly came alwaj's with the people in power. Kerensky was afraid to call a constituent assembly because he was afraid he would lose power; and at that time the left wing, the group led by Trotsky and Lenine ■ Senator Sterling. Those were the radical socialists? Miss Beattt. Yes; they always speak of them over there as the right and the left, you know. Senator Sterling. Yes. Miss Beatty. The left wing was always asking for a constituent assembly, and it was put off from day to day. The group in power BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ( 697 always thought they had the power, and the thing to do was to defer the constituent assembly, because they did not know ho\l' the dele- gates would act. Senator Nelson. Was not the Duma in session under the Kerensky government? Is not that the legislative body of Eussia? Miss Beatty. The Duma was the so-called legislative body of Eussia during the Czar's regime, and, I think, for a certain period after the March revolution. ■ Senator Nelson. Yes. What dissolved that? Miss Beatty. The Duma was dissolved because Senator Nelson. By whom ? Miss Beatty. By the soviet ; at least, virtually by the soviet. Senator Nelson. Not by the Kerensky government? Miss Beatty. Well, it is difficult to say what was the Kerensky government and what was not. The soviet was the council that was formed immediately with the March revolution, and there were in the soviet various elements. There was a left wing and a right wing, all struggling for power. As the left wing dominated more and more, they demanded more and more the representation of the radical group in the cabinet, and they said that the Duma was a representation of the old Czar order and not of the new revolutionary order. Senator Nelson. That was the contention of the Trotsky and Lenine crowd? Miss Beatty. It was pretty much the contention of the groups that were more to the right, too. I mean, it was not only Trotsky and Lenine who felt that the Duma was not representative. The Duma Avas acceptable to the Czar. Senator Nelson. I do not understand. There was no soviet gov- ernment organized there until Lenine and Trotsky came into power and conducted their revolution. You speak about a soviet govern- ment. I do not understand — I never heard — that Kerensky organ- ized a soviet government. Miss Beatty. Let me explain that to you. Perhaps I can make it a little bit clearer. Senator Nelson. I think that it requires explanation. Miss Beatty. It seems to. Senator Nelson. You see, " soviet " is the Russian word for council, meaning merely a meeting, and the soviet of soldiers and workmen was formed immediately upon the March revolution, and that organizaton acted as a body of pressure on whatever government was in power. Now, the soviet did not take over the government until the November revolutiori, but the soviet was, nevertheless, in existence from the very beginning. The left wing in the soviet advocated that the soviet should take control of the government. Senator Nelson. There was no soviet government until the Novem- ber revolution ? Miss Beatty. There was a soviet in existence all the time, but the soviet did not take over the government. Senator Nelson. No. Miss Beatty. Until the November revolution. Senator Steeling. But it was really the council until that time? Miss Beatty. Yes. ■698 -^ , BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. I Senator/ Nelson. And that soviet that you speak of, that was in existence,, Vas simply a local soviet in Petrograd? Miss Beattt. No Senator Nelson. It was not the soviet composed, as the subsequent revolutionary government attempted to create it, of representatives from local Soviets throughout Russia. Miss Beatty. No; you are just a little bit wrong about that. Sen-, ator Nelson. It was the soviet of all of Russia. You see, there were two Soviets, the Petrograd soviet, which was a local affair, and this national soviet, which met from time to time. This was the representative body of all of the Soviets of all of the country, and had its effect on the government; just as the Republican Party here, though it is not running the government, nevertheless affects the government. , -" Senator Overman. How long after Lenine and Trotsky took charge of affairs were you there? Miss Beatty. I was there for about three nlonths after Lenine and Trotsky came into power; not long enough, of course, to be ■ able to pass upon the things that have happened recently, but long enough to know something of the men, and to try to find out what they were working toward. Senator Overman. Then you were not there during what the wit- nesses call the reign of terror ? Miss Beatty. No ; the reign of terror did not begin until the revo- : lution was nearly a year old. The reign of terror did not really begin until after allied intervention. The first note of the reign of i terror that I ever heard sounded was at a convention of railway men in Petrograd, when Nikolas Tchaikowsky, at one time the leader of the peasants, got up in the meeting and made an attack against the Bolsheviks. He said, " We know how to fight tyrants. .■ We ha^e used the red terror against the tyrants in the past, and we will use it again." That was the first time I ever heard "terror" threatened. There were vague rumors about, everywhere. People were talking of terror. One of the men among the soviet leaders I went to one clay when there was this rumor about the terror around — he was a man whom I knew quite well, whom I had come to know quite well through going to tlie meetings of the soviet — and I said. " Surely, there is going to be no red terror here. Surely, the world has advanced too far since the French Revolution to permit of that. You are not going to restore the death penalty, are you? " He said, " No ; we will never restore the death penalty." And then he added, " Unless we have to restore it for traitors in our own ranks ; and what can you do with a man who is a traitor in your own ranks? " Since that time those men have instituted the red terror; and it seems to me that we ought to find out what drove them to the red terror. Senator Nelson. Are you a socialist ? Miss Beatty. No. The only political Senator Nelson. Are you affiliated with any section of the social- ists? Miss Beatty. No. The only political affiliation I ever have had was in 1918, when I took the stump in California for President Wilson. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 699 Senator Nelson. No; what are your sympathies now and your poUtical affiliations? Are you a socialist at heart? Miss Beatty. It depends on what you mean by a socialist. I have been a social worker. Senator Nelson. You ought to know, because you have described, as you say, all these Russian socialists. Miss Beatty. There are 40 degrees of socialists in Eussia alone — 40 different degrees. Senator Nelson. Are you a socialist, and what is your degree? Miss Beatty. What is your definition ot a socialist, and then I will answer you? Senator Nelson. No ; you define it yourself. Miss Beaity. I will tell you what I am, and then perhaps you can decide whether I am a socialist. As I say, I have never affiliated with any group politically except this groui^ that helped to elect President Wilson. Senator Nelson. You do not mean to imply that Wilson was elected by a group of socialists? Do you mean to imply that Presi- dent Wilson was elected by a group of socialists? Miss Beattf. No ; the group I affiliated with in California was Senator Nelson. Oh, never mind what you were affiliated with. Miss Beatty. Senator Nelson, I sliall I\ave to insist upon answer- ing your question in my own way. Senator Nelson. Tell us what you are. Miss Beatty. The group with which I was affiliated in California was a group of women in the College Equal Suffrage League of Non- partisan Women, who went out to help elect President Wilson at the last election. That is tlie only group with which I have ever been politically affiliated. Senator Nelson. That was a woman-suffrage association? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Nelson. Do you belong to what we call the picket club, liere? Miss Beatty. No; I do not. I want to try to tell you what I am. For 12 years I have done social-service work of different kinds ; and if you have ever been a social-service worker you have a great pas- sion in your heart to do away with poverty^ and you feel that every ■child born into the world should get an education, have enough milk, and all that sort of thing. Senator Nelson. Yes; but you know the social end of the Trotsky and Lenine government is going to do that job. Miss Beatty. I do not know just how it is going to be brought about, but I am interested in any program which may help to bring that about. Senator Nelson. The soviet government — tell us what is the na- ture of that government of Lenine and Trotsky? Senator Overman. Have you finished your statement as to what you are? Miss Beatty. Yes ; if. Senator Nelson is satisfied, I am. I do not Iniow, myself, what I am. Senator Nelson. I have a suspicion that you do not, yourself, know it. I am inclined to concur with you. 700 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Overman. Pardon these interruptions. We do not meani to be disrespectful, at all. Miss Beattt. That is quite all right, Senator Overman. Senator Nelsox. I am anxious merely to get your point of view. Senator Overman. I want to explain to you that Senator Nelson is one of the finest men in the world, and he does not mean, by his voice or manner, to be disrespectful to you. Miss BEATTr. I assume that Senator Nelson means no disrespect. If the Senator Avere disrespectful it would be the first time that any man has ever been disrespectful to me. Senator Nelson. What I would like to hear you on is, what you know about the government of Lenine and Trotsky; what their propaganda and plan is. Miss Beattt. Perhaps if I tell you a little bit about tlie course of development of things in Russia, that will help to clarify it a little. I went to Russia thankful that there had been a revolution, because I had been for a long time a student of Russian literature and I knew what the lives of the masses of the Russian people in the past had been. I think tliat I shared the feeling of most Americans, that it was a very wonderful thing that Russian autocracy had been over- thrown. When I went there I was very much interested in what Kerensky was trying to do ; my sympathies were all with him, and I felt that American influence should back him. Senator Sterling. Were not your sympathies with the men who were trying to control, and form a democratic form of government^ before Kerensky came into power? You said that you sympathized Avith the overthrow of the Czar. Miss Beattt. Yes. Senator Steeling. As we all did. But were you not in sympathy with those leaders of the Duma, like the president of the Duma and Miliukov and other able men, who were in favor of a democratic form of government? Miss Beattt. When I arrived these men had already been over- thrown. Senator Sterling. Did you not have sympathy for the others who were trying to form a democratic form of government ? Miss Beatty. Of course, I liad sympathy with their efforts. I had always had sympathy with the fight that they were making. But when I got there Rodzianko had been overtlirown. Most of them wanted a constitutional monarchy. The people of Russia were fight- ing for a democracy. Rodzianko and Miliukov were overthrown when I got there. When I got there the man in power was Kerensky himself. The people said, " We do not want a constitutional mon- archy. We want something more than tliat." Senator Sterling. Did you hear anything about Kerensky having ordered a relaxation of discipline in the army while you were there? Miss Beattt. The relaxation of discipline in the army came im- mediately with the overthrow of the Czar. Senator Sterling. But did not Kerensky issue some order under, which it was understood that the enlisted man was not to show any- particular respect to this superior? Miss Beattt. Yes. Senator Sterling. Or to salute hirti ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 701 Miss Beatty. What they call Prikaz No. 1 was the order which abolished saluting and many of the regulations for the soldiers. Senator Steeling. Were you in sympathy with that extreme view of army discipline? Miss Beattt. I was in sympathy with the abolition of the death penalty, because I have always been in sympathy with that. Senator Nelson. Did you have any sympathy with the extreme view that the enlisted man should not be required to salute or pay proper respect to his superior officer ? Miss Beatty. I was in sympathy with Kerensky's attitude on that. This was the situation. They had all said, " The Czar is gone, and we do not have to do this." I mean that it was not Kerensky that ■created the lack of discipline. The lack of discipline already existed. It was a question of trying to get the Russian soldiers to realize that though this change had come, there was still need for responsibility among them. Senator Steeling. Did not that disrespect for authority and sem- blance of authority create havoc in the army and tend to hasten the dissolution of the army ? Miss Beatty. No; that came after the dissolution had already taken place. Senator Steeling. You mean after the revolution had taken place ? Miss Beatty. Yes ; and I say that the soldiers said, " We do not want to fight any more." Senator Steeling. Was it not intensified by Kerensky's decrees later on ? Miss Beatty. I do not feel so. It may have been. Senator Steeling. You know that to be the view of a great many ? Miss Beatty. Yes; but I do not think those people understand the Russian situation. I do not think they realize that the masses were rushing along so fast that no leader could hold his power who did not make concessions to them. For instance, the army itself made a certain effort not to break down discipline, but after it had gone on there was a complete breakdown as soon as the revolution came. These men said, " Why should we fight ? What is the use of freedom to a man in his grave? " and they began gradually to have disrespect for their officers. , It was an effort to do something, to crystalize them, to carry things on, that, I think, made Kerensky do that. He felt that he could not control his people unless he did that. Then came the July revolution, and that was the first time the Bolsheviki appeared at all. I had just come back from the front when that took place. Senator Steeling. You 'distinguish the Bolsheviki from the social- ists and from the soviet council ? Miss Beatt'y. No ; the Bolsheviki are the left wing of the Soviets. They are at present the controlling element of the Soviets. They are not the entire Soviets. They are in control, just as in the last Con- gress the Democrats were the controlling element here- The Bolshe- viki now hold the control in Russia. But at that time, in July, they did not. Senator Steeling. How did they come to be called the Bolshe- viki? What is the origin of the term ? 702 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss Beatty. The term means simply '' majority," and it originated in the Swiss conference — about 1903, 1 think — when there was a split in the socialist group. Some of them went to the philosophy of Lenine at that time, the Bolshevik philosophy being merely the shortest cut to socialism. Senator Overman. While you are an American and had nothing to do with it, yet in your feelings you are not a partisan of tlie Bolsheviki ? Miss Beatty. Xot at all. Senator Overman. You are an American citizen? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Overman. You are not a partisan in your feelings or in your sympathies? Miss Beatty. Xo. I am merely an observer of Russian affairs. My feeling is that we ought to understand, what produced the Bol- sheviki ; what they are trying to do : what there is that is good about them and what there is that is bad. Senator Nelson. What are they trying to do? Will you tell us that? That is what we'Avant to find out. I mean this government that is now controlled by Lenine and Trotsky. Miss Beatty. Lenine said, " We have entered into the transition period which will lead to socialism." He said, " We have the begin- nings of a socialist state ; but you can not avoid a transition period^ and we have entered into that period." Senator Nelson. A sort of purgatory? Miss Beatty'. a swinging of the pendulum to the opposite ex- treme. In the days of autocracy the pendulum was awav back here, and the people were all oppressed. When they got freedom, the logical thing was for the pendulum to swing to the other extreme. The course of all social progress is in an attempt to get here and get there, and you try to go farther than you car go. Senator Overman. You go to the other extreme in trying to get to tlie middle? Miss Beattf. Yes; exactly. Senator Nelson. What is the plan of government ? Miss Beatty-. Their plan of government is just a national council based upon representation of all of the local councils. Senator Nelson. I mean more particularly their economic plan and not their political scheme. Miss Beatty'. Their pronoiuic plan is control of influstry and socialization of land. Those are the two chief ideas. The plan was to give the land to tlie peasants !ind the control of industries to the workei's. Senator Nelson. Is not their progi-am nationalization of land? ]Miss Beati'y. Yes. Senator Nelson. That all of the land is to belong to the state ? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Nelson. And that the peojjle who are to till the land are to be not even tenants, but simply men who occupy the land and use as much as they occupy and cultivate, and no more ? Miss Beattt. Yes. Senator Nr.i.soN. And they get no kind of title? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 703- Miss Beatty. No; all of the land goes into a common land fund, and that common land fund is administered by a local committee under the jurisdiction of the national committee. A man may have 'as much land as he and the members of his family can use without em- ploying any labor. Senator Nelson. They must not have any hired help? Miss Beatty. No. A man can hold the land as long as he can work it. The nearest thing to land tenure that there is in Russia is, his right to suggest who his successor shall be on that land. If he be- comes disabled the neighbors work his land for two years, and be- yond that time the land goes back into the common land fund, and "lie is put upon a pension, the idea being that there shall be no land in Russia which is nonproductive. Senator Nelson. And no land in private ownership; that the peasants should not even own the land ? Miss Beaitt. You can have all the land that you can use, but you can not use another man on that land. I Senator Overman. Is it the idea that a man should not accumulate,. but just live ? Miss Beatty. Their idea is to take the earning capacity out of" money. They say that money is just stored labor power. They say at present there are only two kinds of power in the world — the labor- power and the power of capital, M'hich is stored labor power. Senator 0\'Eeman. They are against capital? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Overman. And against accumulation? Miss Beatty. Yes. I Senator Overman. And if a man has a family of a dozen children,., let us say, and they work on the farm and accumulate money, they will not allow them to have that money. They just want him to exist. Is that the idea ? Miss Beatty. No; that is not entirely it. They say that he can not make monej' out of his money. He can do anything he likes with- it, but he can not make his money earn money for him. Senator- Overman. The idea is that it is to go back on the farm?' Let us say that a man makes $1,000 in a year on the farm. Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Overman. What does he do with that ? Miss Beatty. He can buy food, and travel, and buy clothes. He can spend his money in any way he chooses, but he can not put it out to earn more money. Senator Overman. Outside of buying his clothes and subsistence- wd living, let us say that the man and his family accumulate on the farm $1,000. What becomes of that thousand dollars? Miss Beatty. He can keep that money and use it in any way he likes, at any time, but he can not make that money earn money for- liini. He can not do as- we do, put the money out at intei'est and make tile money earn. Senator Sterling. Could he not buy a horse and wagon and use 'hem on the farm, and thus make money ? Miss Beatt'y. Yes ; he can do anything of that sort ; anything that will develop ; anything that will not interfere with the product of" somebody else. That is the whole idea. The two fundamental things. 704 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. are that no man shall eat who does not work and that no man shall exploit any other man. Senator Steeling. He could not lend the money made on the farm to another man who wanted to borrow the money to equip his farm? Miss Beatty. I believe not. Mr. Humes. He could not invest the money in cattle ? Miss Beatty. Oh, yes ; I think he can. Mr. Humes. Have not all cattle been nationalized ; and do not the laws of the soviet republic provide for the nationalization of cattle and stock ? Miss Beatty. I do not know about that. That had not been done up to the time I left. I do not know whether that has been done since or not. Senator Oveemax. It was testified to by a lady who was the wife of a consn] over there — or she has given me the idea — that the cattle were nationalized. She said that they took all of the cattle away from her mother, who was a widow. It seems that her mother had a fine breed of imported cattle — 118 of them, I believe — and 100 horses. They took tliem all away from her mother and. gave her a piece of land, and left, perhaps, one cow and one horse. It would seem their idea is to nationalize cattle and horses. Miss Beatty. Of course, their idea is as nearly as possible to equal- ize, pretty much, everywhere. I mean that it is their idea to bring people pretty much to the same level. Senator Steeling. And in order to put them on the same level, they just reverse the order of things. They put the laborers and the peasants at the top. Miss Beatty. Practically that. They are lowering the 10 per cent and raising the level of the 90 per cent. Senator Nelson. Do you favor that kind of socialism? I Miss Beatty. That is also a very difficult question to answer. I favor some sort of system Senator Nelson. No, no. Do you favor this system of nationaliz- ing land as the Eussians do — as the Bolshevik government does? Miss Beatty. If that is a system Senator Nelson. Do not evade the question, now. Give us a cate- gorical answer. Miss Beatty. Senator Nelson, you see black and white in very much more distinct terms than I do. I think the truth always lies between black and white, in the gray ; and one can not say yes or no to things of that sort. I could not answer that question truthfully by saying either yes or no. Senator Nelson. I have a suspicion, from the way in which you evade my question, that you are a good deal of a Kussian socialist at heart. Senator Steeling. You have described this nationalization of the land in that process and its results ? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Steeling. I should think that you could answer yes or no to Senator Nelson's question as to whether or not you believe in it. Miss Beatty. I am perfectly willing — I would like to see an exper- iment of it. I do not know whether it will work or whether it will not work. / BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 705 Senator Sterling. You believe in it enough to want to see it tried, do you ? Miss Beatty. Yes; in Russia. By that I mean that that is what the Russian people Senator Nelson. Why do you have such evil wishes for the pooi- Eussian people, that you would like to have this tried on them? Would you like to have it tried on the American people ? Miss Beatty. No. Senator Nelson. Why would you have the poor Russian people try something that you would not advise Americans to try ? Miss Beatty. Because the Russians want it. As soon as the Amer- icans want it, I shall be in favor of their trying it. I believe people have the right to have what they want. Senator Nelson. Even brimstone? Miss Beatty. If they want it f yes. I think that that is the theory upon which our democratic government is based. Senator Overman. What becomes of the common loafer who gets the land and will not work it? What becomes of him? Miss Beatty. He can not live ; because he has to eat, and he can not eat if he does not work. There is no room for the loafer at any end of the line in Russia. You have to work to eat. Senator Overman. He will starve unless he works the land? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Sterling. And under this Russian system they call those who have never worked before, who have not had to work because they have had the means, or because they occupied such stations in life that they did not have to work — they are, according to this Rus- sian system ; I mean the Trotsky and the Lenine system^-the loafers, and they propose that they shall have nothing to eat unless they work? Miss Beatty. Yes ; that is true. Senator Nelson. They reverse the order of nature, then. The hoboes and the tramps are classed as capitalists over there, are they not? Mr. Humes. Miss Beatty, may I correct a statement that you made ? Miss Beatty. Certainly. I should be very glad to have you do so. Mr. Humes. Senator Sterling asked you if it would not be possi- ble for a man who had accumulated a thousand dollars to buy a horse or to buy stock. I want to call your attention to one of the provisions of the coiistitution of the soviet republic : All foi-psts, mineral wealth, waterpnwei" iiiid waterways, as well as all live ' stock and agricultural implements, are declared national property. Is it not a fact under this scheme that no man can own a horse, no man calTowiTlC cow, no man can own live stock of any kind, or a plow or a harrow or anything else, but he simply has the use of the 'land itself, and he must negotiate with the state in order to secure the horse to work his farm and the plow to plow it, or the cattle for his domestic uses? Is not that a fact? Miss Beatty. Just one moment. You will recall that I said that I did not know whether the cattle had been nationalized or not, be- cause that had happened after I left. 85723—19 45 706 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA, Mr. Humes. But Senator Sterling asked you about buying a horse, and you said yes, that he could buy a horse. Now, horses are live stock, and if they have been nationalized the farmer could not have a horse. Miss Beattt. It is not a question of whether you can have it or not. You can have it without buying it, in Russia. You can have it by needing it. I mean it is for the common good of every one. With a man's labor he can buy or get — whether you call it buying or not, he can get — the things that he needs. Mr. Humes. Now we are getting down to the point that was in- quired about. Under the application of this form of government in Russia, how does a man secure the live stock that is necessary to work his farm? How does he secure the cattle that are necessary in caring for his property, or in furnishing meat and provisions for his f amily^ providing milk for his children? How is that handled under this system ? Miss Beattt. Knowing what I know about the rest of the system, I should say that all those things become a part of the common fund. Mr. Humes. I gather that you are just speculating on that. You do not know how they are handling it. Miss Beatty. I told you that I am speculating. I say, judging by what I know of the rest of the things, I should say the distribu- tion of farm implements, the vise of farm implements and cattle and all that sort of thing, is handled in the same way that the use of land is — co-ownership. It can not be very different. That is the soviet ideal. Senator Overman. If a man needed an extra horse for his farm, how would he get it? Miss Beattt. I should think — remember, I have not been there in the last few months and can not tell you, but knowing what I know of the rest of the system, I should say — that he would go to the live stock committee and say, " I have six acres of wheat to plow to-mor- row, and I need an extra horse," and he would get his extra horse. Senator Overman. In other words, he would get it from the state or the body that represents the state ? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Sterling. That is, if the state agred with him that he needed it. Miss Beattt. Oh, but you see he is the state. Senator Sterling. And he determines, then, for himself ? Miss Beattt. Yes. In every locality they work out every little problem in their councils or committees. I am afraid that I am not making it quite clear to you. You see, in each community they have so much live stock and so many farm implements. For instance, I know that in some communities they have tried to buy farm imple- ments. They have all gotten together and decided that they need a reaper or a harvester, and they buy that for the community ; and they work out how that shall be utilized, they work out their need for it. They decide that Jones needs it to-day and Smith can take it to- morrow, and so on. Mr. HuJiES. Is that under the soviet government? Miss Beattt, Yes ; they have the local councils. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 707 , Mr. Htjmes. Who pays for these implements? You say the com- munity buys them. Is it paid for by popular subscription, or does the state buy it and pay for it ? Miss Beatty. The soviet and the people of the community are one. The local council and the people of the community are one. The local soviet is a part of the national soviet, which is the whole state. It is just the perfectly simple old system of cooperation. Senator Overman. Let us trace it out. The community gets its implements somewhere. Where do they get them ? Miss Beatty. When I was in Russia they were having a difficult time getting them anywhere. They were getting whatever they could from the International Harvester Co. Senator Overman. I am talking about the time when we would have no International Harvester Co. Miss Beatty. They put their money together. In one village I know of — I have forgoten the name Senator Overman. How did they get the money ? Miss Beatty. Oh, they still have money in Russia. Senator Overman. In the future how are they going to get it; by taxation ? Miss Beatty. I presume so. By some agreement or plan, and I suppose taxation will be the plan. Senator Overman. But suppose a man does not pay anything to it. Miss Beatty. Then he could not have the farm. Senator Oatirman. Suppose he can not get the farm; then he just dies by starvation, by action of the state. Miss Beatty. I should think so. Senator Xelson. There is one thing that puzzles me. Let us s;iy that there is a Russian peasant who sit down to milk a state cow. It is not his cow ; it is a cow that is furnished to him by the state. Wlio owns the milk ? Does that belong to the state ? Miss Beatty. I am afraid, Senator Nelson, that you are facetious this morning? Senator Overman. We are going into this, and we want to find out how this thing M-orks. I think you can see our attitude. Miss Beatty. Indeed, I am delighted, and I wish I could do more to infoi-m you. Senator Sterling. The more important question, Senator Nelson, is. Who gets the cream ? Senator Nelson. You have gone over this land question. What about the industries of the country ? What is their plan ? They are nationalizing all the factories and the industries of the country. That is, the state is to take them over. Is that the plan ? Miss Beatty. That is their ideal. Lenine says that for the time being they will ha'^'e to pass through a capitalistic period in which they will have to permit outside control of some of tlieir industries. They say that is not an ideal thing ; that it is not in accordance with their ultimate plan. Senator Overman. AA'Iiat is their plan? Miss Beatty. Their plan is complete nationalization of not only land but industry. Senator Nelson. And that the workmen in these industries are to run and control them ? 708 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss BEATTi". Yes; but they have a broader interpretation of the term "' workman "' than we have. By workman they mean any man who works, eitlier with his brain or with his brawn. Senator Nelson. But they make a distinction in their food supply as between men who work with their hands and those who work with their brains. When they give them food cards, they make a dis- tinction. Miss Beatty. That is true. They did that in the days of the Czar, and all through the war period. Senator Nelson. And thej' do it now. Miss Beatty. Thej- have always done that upon the basis that a man who works with his hands needs more food than a brain worker does. Senator Nelson. And so he gets more food^ Miss Beatty. Yes. It was true all the time I was in Russia. It was true during the war. Their food cards called for more bread for the laborer. And also in that time it should be remembered that bread was the chief source of food for the laborer. We, for instance, could buy caviar and all sorts of other things, but the laborer could not, and they figured that he was entitled to a larger amount of bread. Senator Nelson. I do not care to go into the details of it, but I want to simpl}' ask you this question: Did thej' not also have a scheme for nationalizing women, as they call it? Miss Beatty. I think I can tell you two or three things that will probably convince you that that is not true. One of the witnesses here, I believe, introduced a document purporting to have been passed by the anarchists' soviet of Saratov. At that time Mr. Jerome Davis, who was one of the Y. M. C. A. men in Saratov, went to the anarchist soviet and asked whether they had passed that de- cree. They flatly denied it, and posted proclamations denying they had passed it. The anarchist soviet and the Bolshevik soviet were at war, and the anarchist Soviets were afterwards put down by ma- chine guns by the Bolsheviki. Senator Nelson. Now you have brought in a new distinction. Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Nelson. You speak of the Bolsheviki and the anarchists. Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Nelson. There are two elements of these socialists? Miss Beatty. There are many elements ; about 40 in all. / Senator Nelson. I mean of the Bolsheviki. There is the anar- chistic element and another element? Miss Beatty. No. The philosophy of the anarchists and the phi- losophy of the Bolsheviki are very different. The anarchist does not believe in government at all. The Bolsheviki believe in a highly socialized form of government. But to get on, to this decree. One of the Eussian papers, an offi- cial organ, published a statement relating to the decree or order of the soviet government suppressing for all time, and charging a fine of 25,000 rubles against, a newspaper which had published what they called this false decree — this outrageous and shameful false decree, as the Eussian translation is. Those two things, I think, ought to hel]3 to indicate that that is not a general thing in Eussia. I person- ally do not believe it was issued, and neither does Mr. Davis, who BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 709 was there. One other reason for not believing it is that women have a vote in Russia, and I do not believe that women anywhere will vote to nationalize themselves. Mr. Humes. You say that Sartov decree was never issued by this anarchistic soviet? Miss Beattt. I say they deny ever having issued it. Mr. Humes. Either Mr. Williams or Mr. Reed testified the other (lay, stating that it had been issued, but only the first four paragraphs were a part of the original decree and the rest was obscene matter that had been subseqiientlj' added with the intent of adding some humor to the situation. Miss Beattt. I do not know as to that. Mr. Humes. Are you correct in saying that it never was issued, or is the former witness correct in :^aying that only the first four paragraphs were realty a part of the decree? Miss Beattt. I am correct in quoting Mr. Davis to the eifect that it never wsis issued. Mr. Davis said that he went to the anarchist sD\iet in Saratov. They were ^-erj' indignant, and they flatly denied issuing that decree and posted that denial all over the city. Mr. Hu>rES. What do .you know about the decree that was issued at Vladimir ? Miss Beattt. Personally, nothing; except that I can judge the attitude of the soviet authorities to such decrees by the suppression (if this newspaper. Mr. Humes. In that same connection, what do you know about the nationalization of children, or the taking over by the state of chil- dren of certain ages, for the purposes of education? Miss Beattt. I know that when I talked to Alexandra Kollontay, who is commissar of public welfare, she told me a great deal, at length, as to what her social program was, and there was nothing of that sort in that program. Her idea was that an orphanage was a bad place in which to keep children, and that it was best to get them Hway from that soi't of control. In order to make it possible for women to keep their own children, they formulated a plan by which ii mother should have eight weeks of liberty from her factory posi- tion previous to the birth of her child and immediately after. Mr. HujiES. That is in order to encourage woman labor ; in order to protect and encourage woman labor in the factories ? Miss Beattt. No; these are the women who always had to work, just as our women here work in factories, whether they have children or not. This was to protect the woman from hurting herself before and after the birth of her child. Mr. HujiBS. Is it true that this Madam Kollontay married the man whom she did marry, and with whom she went to the Scandanavian fonntries, because of these regulations or requirements for the nationalization of women and compulsory marriage? Miss Beattt. I am quite sure that she never did anything under compulsion. Mr. Humes. I mean that she went there to avoid the compulsion tliat was incident to the enforcement of the decree. Miss Beattt. I should say that that was absolutely untrue. I was present at Smolny at the soviet when the marriage decree was passed, and I heard the discussion of it. 710 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. What is the marriage decree ? What is the ceremony ? jMiss Beatty. It provided separation of the church and state. Up to the time of the revolution the church marriage was essential in Eussia. The soviet decree advocated that church marriages should be optional. One could marry in the church or not as one chose, but the state marriage was obligatory. Mr. Humes. How is it performed? Miss Beatty. By going before a marriage commissioner, or what would be in this country a justice of the peace, and registering your desii'e to be married — in other words, by taking out a license. At that time there was considerable discussion upon how many divorces should be granted. Senator Nelson. You speak of taking out a license. Was it a license generally or a license to marrj' some particular person? Miss Beatty. The two people who were to be married went to the marriage commissioner and took out a license for their own mar- riage, just as we do here. Senator Overman. How could they separate? jNIiss Beatty. They could separate by going before a marriage and divorce commission and declaring their desire to separate, saying that they no longer wished to be married. Mr. Humes. Can not either one of the parties to the marriage se- cure a divorce? Miss Beatty. Yes; either one can. Mr. Humes. By agreement; or either one of the parties can secure a divorce on application? Miss Beatt'y. Yes. Senator Xelsqn. If thev get tired of one another, they can just quit? Miss Beatty. Yes. They also formulated a plan as to what should become of the children. Unless there was a common agreement as to who should support the child, made outside of coiirt or commis- sion, alimony was granted to the mother in such sum as the judge believed was necessary. Mr. Humes. For the support of the child? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Overman. Was that alimony paid by the state or by the father? Miss Beatty. By the father, as it was planned then. Senator Nelson. Were you out in the country among" the peasants while you were in Russia? Miss Beatty. Yes; a little bit. Not as much as I would like to have been. Senator Nelson. What was the form of the peasants' government before the revolution broke out? Miss Beatty. There really was no peasant government, you know. I mean there was none in Russia but the Czar's government, really. The zemstvos had a certain amount of control, and there were the cooperative societies. Senator Nelson. Do you not know, now, that the peasants were set- tled in villages and communities called mirs, and had their local government, and that their lands were owned as community property, and that those mirs assigned the cultivation of the lands to members of the community? BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. 711 Miss Beattt. That is true in some communities; not in all com- munities. Senator Nelson. No. Miss Beattt. That was quite the generally adopted custom, how- ever, among the Russians. Senator Nelson. They live in villages and not out on their farms, as they do here ? Miss Beattt. No; they Hve in villages and go out to work on their farms. Senator Nelson. And those lands belonged to the mirs, as they called them, the village communities? Miss Beattt. Not altogether. In some places the lands were privately owned. Senator Nelson. Yes. Miss Beattt. You see, up to the time of the freeing of the serfs, the peasants had no ownership in their own land, and they worked the land of the estates. They were given the use of a certain amount of land in return for the service that they gave to the landowner — to the estate holder or to the slave owner. At the time of the decree which freed the serfs, the peasants believed thej' were going to get the land. They have a phrase over there, they say that the land is God's and the people's, and they believed that the Czar gave them the land, but the landowners kept it away from them. That made them very bitter toward the landowners. They began, back in the seventies, to burn barns and destroy property. When the revolution came, the attitude of these men was merely that they were taking something which belonged to them, something which Alexander had given them long, long ago, but which the landlords had kept- from them. Senator Nelson. What they got under the Czar's government when they were set free, the land that was assigned to the village communities, is confiscated by this new government and taken away. It does not belong to the community but it belongs to the state, now ; and the whole system of the mir assigning lands to the members of a community will be obsolete now, under this government, will it not? Miss Beattt. No. In some places they do just as they have always done. The present land law of the soviet was formed from a codifi- cation of the land regulations made by the peasants themselves in something like 240 villages. In nearly 240 villages the peasants had already taken their land during the Kerensky regime. They had not waited for the government to do anything about it. They had said, " The land is ours, and we are going to have it," and they took it without any formal national land law. These methods used in the various communities were gone over, and a new law was passed upon plans that the peasants themselves had worked out. Senator Nelson. Under this new system of nationalized land, the land will be taken from these communities, will it not, as community property, and also from private owners, and it will all become the property of the state? It makes no difference whether it is com- munity or private property — individual property — it will become the property of the state ? Miss Beattt. Yes; but, you see, the community and the state are one. 712 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. , Senator Nelson. Oh, there is a great difference between saying that this ground here, between this building and the Union Station, belongs to the city of Washington, and saying that it belongs to the Government of the United States. There is a great difference in that. Miss Beaity. Yes; there is a difference here, but there is not a difference in Russia. Senator Nelson. No; I perceive. I perceive there is not much difference in Russia. Miss Beatty. Perhaps our telegraph system here or our mail sys- tem will serve a little bit better to illustrate it. You see, our mail system belongs to the Government, and yet it belongs to each of us as individual members of the state. We all share in it. Senator Nelson. Yes. Now, what is to become of all the people who do not themselves work on the land, and what is to become of people who do not work in the factories or in the industrial enter- prises ? What is to become of them in Russia '( Miss Beatty. Everyone in Russia has to work ; not on the land or in the factories, necessarily, but they have to make some contribution ; they have to produce something. Senator Nelson. Their theory is that everybody must work? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Nelson. Work at what ? Miss Beatty. At anything which is productive for the good of the nation. Senator Nelson. Yes. Miss Beatty. You see, they contemplate not only organizing dis- tribution, but also production. Senator Nelson. The farmer has no right now to hire any help ? Miss Beatty. No. Senator Nelson. He can not hire any hands on his farm ? Miss Beatty. No. Senator Nelson. And a woman can not hire anybody to help her milk the cows or do any of her work ? Miss Beatt'y. No; but any number of farmers can combine and work their land in common, which is the same thing. Any number of men can till their land in common. Senator Nelson. There is no room, then, in Russia for a farm laboi'er unless he has a piece of land to till himself? Miss Beatty. No ; none at all. Senator Nelson. No one can have a hired man on his farm ? Miss Beatty. No ; there are no hired men. Senator Overman. There are no hired women, either? Miss Beatty. No. Senator Overman. Suppose the community will not help a man to till his land? Suppose the community will not help a woman milk her cow? Mr. Humes. The state owns the cow. The woman does not have the cow. Senator Overiman. The cow that the state lets her use when she wants to use it. Suppose she can not get anybody to help to milk the cow or to make the butter, or do other work, when she is not well, for instance? How is she going to do that? BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 713 Miss Beatty. You gentlemen make it very difficult. [Laughing.] This is the A B C of economics, upon which dozens and dozens of; books have been written. Senator Nelson. As I understand, your mental state is this — see if I misapprehend you: While you are not clear that this form of government would be good for our people, you have an idea that it is just the thing for the Russian people ? Miss Beatty. That is not entirely the fact. Senator Nelson. Can you qualify it ? Miss Beatty. I should like to. Senator Nelson. With limitations? Miss Beatty. I feel that the Russian people have the right to work out any sort of system that they choose. I think that they have demonstrated that they want to try to work out this system. Of course, we have the right to work out any kind of system that we choose, and if we ever want to work out any other system than that we have, we will do it ; and we, as democrats, have got to allow to Eussia or any other country the right to work out its own problems according to its own ideals. And the ideals of America and the ideals of Eussia are different. We are entitled to our ideas, and Russia is entitled to her ideas. Senator Nelson. And you think that the ideal of the Bolshevik government is what the Russian people want? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Nelson. Yes ; and they ought to have it ? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Nelson. That is your idea? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Overman. It has been testified here by various persons,, and I see from the papers, that there are only about 5 or 10 per cent of these people that favor the Bolshevik plan, and therefore, if that is so, you would not be in favor of this system for Russia ? Miss Beatty. No; absolutely not. You see, I do not believe that that is so, for a number of reasons. Harold Williams, who was' cor- respondent of the London Times and is a very conservative man as to figures — I mean, I do not think that he could be swept off of his feet to believe that the Bolsheviki were in control of Russia unless they were — said, some months ago, that the Bolshevik movement has completely swept the country. ^ Senator Overman. Right there; they all testify that they have \ control of the government, but that they have it by reason of German soldiers and Lettish soldiers, and tramps and criminals; that they have freed every criminal in Russia, and that all the criminals are / members of the Bolsheviki ; and they have the reign of terror there,/ by which the peasants are overawed and terrified. Mifs Beatty. Do you think that a million or two or three million coidd dominate and overawe one hundred and eighty million people? Senator Overman. I thought of that, too; but they say that they have taken their guns and all their arms away from them, and they shoot them down on the farms, and in the villages, in the streets, if they resent the Bolshevik idea. Of course, by having all the guns and ammunition, and with the army, they can do that for a t:me; and 714 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. it has been testified that that is what they are doing, and that the people themselves are not in favor of it. Miss Beatty. I would like to give you a little more evidence of the fact that the people themselves are in favor. I had a long talk with Tchaikowsky. He told me how he had tried to work with the workmen's and soldiers' council, but left them after three weeks' time. Then he organized the first congi-e-ss of peasants; and the peasants finally all went to the left, leaving him and his committee alone. He said the}' had gone past him in their ideas. And he, too, told me that Bolshevism had completely swept the country. He said, "We can not do anything with them. We can not keep them in control at all. Every time we send a delegate back to the village we find that the villagers have gone over to the Bolsheviki." ]Mr. HujiEs. It has been testified that the Bolsheviks go in and select anybody they want to, and take them out and kill them. Miss Beatty. Has it been testified by anybody that they ever saw anybody Irilled? Mr. fliiiES. Many cases have been specified and testified to — many specific instances. Miss Beatty. Where they saw these things? Mr. Humes. Yes. Senator Xelson. Did you see anybody killed over there? Miss Beatty. No ; I never saw anybody killed. I was in the midst of machine-gun fire many times. Senator Xelsox. The machine guns did not go off while you were there, then? Miss Beatty. Oh, yes. I saw one man wounded. I was under siege in the telephone exchange for five hours at one time, and I saw a man there wounded. Senator Nelson. European Russia is about as big as the United States? Miss Beatty. Russia is one-sixth of the whole earth's surface. Senator Nelson. No; but European Russia is about as big as the TTnited States? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Nelson. Now, where did you go in Russia? You were at Petrograd, at Moscow, and at Nijni Novgorod. What other places did you go to ? Miss Beatty. I wish I had a map so that I could show you. I went across Siberia Senator Nelson. Oh, yes; but Siberia is not European Russia. Miss Beatty. You see, I also went across European Russia to get to Petrograd. Senator Nelson. You went from Perm, over there in Siberian liussia ? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Nelson. That is all. Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Nelson. Is not most of the peasant country south of that? Miss Beatty. I did not go into the Ukraine at all. Senator Nelson. Did you go into Little Russia? Miss Beatty. That is the Ukraine, you know. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 715 Senator Nelson. Did you go into White Eussia ? Miss Beatty. Yes ; I went into White Eussia. Senator Nelson. What part? Miss Beatty. It was in White Eussia where I went to the western front. Senator Nelson. You went out to the battle front at Dvinsk? Miss Beatty. Yes ; and Miiladetschna. Senator Nelson. How long did you stay there? Miss Beatty. Two weeks. Senator Nelson. Did you communicate with the peasants or the soldiers ? Miss Beatty. Both. Senator Nelson. In that country? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Nelson. Is that all you saw of Eussia — those places ? Miss Beatty. I went down to Nijni Novgorod and up the Volga River and stopped at Yaroslav. Senator Nelson. Did you come across any Cossacks there? Miss Beatty. I came across Cossacks there. Senator Nelson. Do you not know that the land tenure of the Cossacks is different from that of the other lands? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Nelson. Do you not know that they have lands assigned to them in fee for military service ? Miss Beatty. Yes ; I do know that. Senator Nelson. Look here ; suppose you were a stranger dropped down here from the clouds, from Europe, and that you came over here and visited New York, Hoboken, Philadelphia, and Washing- ton. What would you know about the American people from just seeing these towns? Wliat would you know about the American people and the feeling of the American people, and of the American farmers in the Mississippi Valley, by visiting just those two or three towns ? Miss Beatty. But, you see, you do not quite understand the geography of Eussia, or you would see that I covered a great deal more ground than you think. But the thing that I feel is the dilRculty with so many people who are witnessing on the question of Eussia is that they have never come into the slightest contact with what is the most important thing there. I mean, most of them have never even met a Bolshevik. Senator Nelson. You saw a live Bolshevik, then? Miss Beatty. Yes ; I spent, a great deal of time at the Soviets. Mr. Humes. I thought that practically all of the 180,000,000 people of Eussia were Bolsheviki. I thought that was the statement that you contended for, that the vast majority of the people were Bolsheviki, so that you could not go anywhere without meeting a Bolshevik. Miss Beatty. You know, you can spend your time entirely in the American colony in Eussia. Mr. Humes. Yes; but there were quite a number of Bolsheviki there, were there not ? How many of those that you might term of the American colony, that came from America, were members of the government, or were in part of the Bolshevik government, in Eussia ? 716 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss Beattt. There were only two men whom I know who took any part in the Bolshevik government in Eussia, and the only part that they took was in German propaganda. They went in there to try to create German propaganda to help dethrone the Kaiser. Mr. Humes. Who was that ? * Miss Beattt. John Reed and Albert Ehys Williams. Mr. Humes. Did you ever meet Mr. Eeinstein over there? Miss Beatty. Yes. I was thinking of men who had been born in America. He was a Eussian. ^Ir. Humes. He was an American citizen, was he not? Miss Beatty. I was thinking of American-born. Mr. Humes. I am talking about the people who got their educa- tion and training, such as it was. in this country. Miss Beatty. I was thinking of men whom I had met at dinners and dan( es. Mr. Humes. Then, liy tlie American colony you do not mean the Americans Miss Beatty. Not the Eussian-Americans. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that there were more Americans who were part of the Bolshevik government than you have testified as part of the American colony ? Senator Overman. Miss Beatty has kindly consented to give her testimony. I understand from her own testimony that she was there only eight months. There is no use in asking her about these places where she has not gone. It is impossible for her to know about thesi> places which she has not visited. I want to know if there is any statement that she wants to make, and I will allow her to make it. It is evident to my mind, and I think the committee agrees, that she is not sufficiently informed, having been there only eight months, a certain time in Petrograd. a certain time on the front, and a short time in Moscow, and it is impossible for her to know the conditions over there now — as they exist to-day. Miss Beatty. It is impossible, except as one knows what the forces are that are at work. Senator Ovek.man. That is your viewpoint, and what you ha\c gathered from the newspapers since you have been there. Miss Beatty. It is impossible except from what I have learned from Eussian papers and from people who have returned, and from what I know of the peojjle whom I met there, and the forces at work. Xo little incident that happens from day to day is the important thing. Senator Overman. I mean, if we are to understand the subject of the Bolsheviki, we need to know what Inis happened all these yeai-s in Enssia much more than the number of people killed. The impor- tant thing in the European war was not how many people were killed but what were the causes behind it. Senator Overman. We want to know what is going on there — the condition of the people. That is what we are more interested in. Senator Xelson. You only ga^e us what you have picked up from newspapers and from interviewing those American Bolsheviks that you have referred to over in Eussia? ]\Iiss Beatty. Xo; you are entirely wrong. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 717 Senator Nelsojj. You do not know anything of your own knowl- edge, and you were not there when the reign of terror broke out ? Miss Beattt. You are entirely wrong when you say I do not know anything of my own knowledge, because I do. I was in the soviet night after night. Senator Overmakt. The point I make is this, if I may interrupt you, that you can not possibly know what the sentiment of the people now is, except of the 5 per cent or 10 per cent of the Bolsheviki, he- cause sentiment could he changed over night. It is impossible for you to know what the jjublic sentiment is there now. Miss Beattt. Yes; that is true, Senator Overman, except to judge things of the present by the past. I was there at the time of the Korniloff revolt. In American newspapers it was stated that the streets ran ri\ers of blood, whereas one single officer was killed, and he shot himself. Senator STERLi>(i. On what occasion? Miss Beatty. The Korniloff revolt, when Korniloff tried to become dictator of Eussia. So, I say, if the reports then were so very much ■exaggerated, then it is not at all unlikely that they are exaggerated now. Senator vSterling. Miss Beatty, witnesses have testified here. I recall one in particular, who had been in two different Kussian prisons under the Bolshevik government. He testified that day after day Red Guards would come in, members of the Red Guard, and march out a man to be shot. Do you discredit that? Miss Beatty. I do not know whether that is true or not. I think it is not at all unlikely, for this reason Senator Sterling. You say it is not at all unlikely? Miss Beatty. Yes; for this reason. I was reading in one of the liussian papers a dispatch concerning conditions in one of the vil- lages. The dispatch was to the effect that the White Guards took the village in the evening and sentenced something like 26 members of the soviet to die, and e.xccuted them on the spot. They sentenced 150 more to die the next day. The next morning the Red Guards came in and recaptured the village and executed the White Guards. Senator Sterling. You show a disposition, I must confess, to shield the Red Guards of the Bolsheviki. Now you are saying that the Red Guards are no worse than the White Guards ; and you have excused the Red Guards for some of their atrocities by telling what the White Guards had clone. Miss Beatty. You understand that everything is logical, that noth- ing happens without a cause. Senator Sterling. We are talking about the manifestations, the evidences that we have, of atrocities. You think that the evidence ■of the atrocities amounts to little; that it is just immaterial. You want to philosophize, and you want to go to causes always Miss Beatty. Do you not, Senator? Senator Sterling. Are we not justified in tracing the relation be- tween the atrocities, these outward numifestations, these murders and this starvation, to the spirit that is behind and that goes to tlie oause ? Miss Beatty. You are justified if you are going to start way back in the past. That is the thing. I have been doing that. There are 718 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. many witnesses who have come here. One of them left Eussia some months before I left. Even before the Bolshevik revolution these men testified to what they had heard. They told stories that I knew to be discredited when I was in Russia. But they are telling the same stories here that were told when I was there. What I contend is that you do not want to try to get at the truth by that sort of thing. Senator Overman. You speak of people who left there before you did. However, we have had witnesses — witness after witness — here who left a long time after you did. They corroborate those things, and make them worse, and they were eyewitnesses to the things, not speaking from hearsay testimony. Miss Beatty. Perhaps all the evidence has not been published in the newspapers, but most of the things that I have read in the news- papers have been hearsay evidence; and I know I have read things that were told over there that were proved not to be true. Senator Overman. Is not the evidence that you are giving us hearsay ? Miss Beatty. Not at all. Senator Overman. But you do not know conditions since j'ou left, except what you have gathered from the newspapers? Miss Beatty. I do not offer that as my own evidence. Senator Nelson. AYhat else have you told us except that? Miss Beatty. I think the fact that I am here, quite safe, after eight months in Russia, is a slight evidence of the fact that things can not be quite as terrible as has been reported. Senator Overman. Let me say, with respect, that what you have said is hearsay and argumentative. Is not that true? Miss Beatty. I am sorry if I am argumentative. Senator Overman. You are fine in that line. Senator Nelson. Are you directly or indirectly connected with the Bolshevik propaganda that is carried on under the auspices of Wil- liams and these other men? Miss Beatty. I am not. Senator Sterling. Do you know Lenine^ Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Sterlino. Did you meet him i Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Sterling;. Talk witli him ? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Sterling. And Trotsky? Miss Beattf". Yes. Senator Sterling. Talked with both of them ? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Sterling. Have gotten their viewpoint? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Sterling. How well acquainted were you with them ( Miss Beatty. Not very well. Senator Sterlinc;. You had frequent interviews with them? Miss Beatty. Enough to get their viewpoint. Senator Nelson. And you agree mainly in their viewpoint? Miss Beatty. No ; not entirely. I disagree very much. I do not approve of suppression of the press, suppression of free speech, and many other things wliich the Bolsheviki have done. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 719 Senator Nelson. In the main, you think they are on the right track ? Miss Beatty. All that I am, and all that I will permit yon to say that I am, is a student of affairs in Eussia. I am deeply interested in affairs in Eussia, and I could not have found out anything about Eussia if I had not gone to the Soviets and met Lenine and Trotsky. They are the men in control of that country, and I was interested in knowing what their plans are. Senator Overman. They told you what their plans were and what they were proposing to do; and yet it has been asserted that they have not carried out all their glorious promises. Miss Beatty. I will say that they have not put into effect the sys- tem in which they believed. Senator Nelson. Is not your purpose in appearing before this committee to sort of justify the Bolshevik government before our people ? Miss Beatty. Not at all. Mj^ feeling is this, that I think we have no right to intervene in Eussia, and I want very much to have the American troops brought out of Eussia. I want to let Eussia alone. Senator Nelson. In other words, you want the Bolsheviki, or Lenine and Trotsky, to have a free hand there. That is \Yhat you want, is it not ? Miss Beatty. If you prefer your words to mine, Senator Nelson. Senator Nelson. I have not been able to get a direct answer from you on anything. Mr. Httmes. The fact remains that the press is suppressed, does it not? Miss Beatty. In a measure ; yes. At least it was when I was there. Mr. Humes. And free speech is not permitted ? Miss Beatty. In a measure that is true. Mr. Humes. And the constituent assembly has never been per- mitted to meet ? Miss Beatty. It met, but was dissolved. Mr. Humes. By force? Miss Beatty. The leaders were told to go home. Mr. Humes. By force ? Miss Beatty. I would say by force. No force was used, because it was not necessary. They were told to go home. Mr. Humes. But armed guards came to advise them to go ? Miss Beatty. Yes. Senator Overman. They were under duress, in other words? Miss Beatty. Yes. Mr. Humes. Therefore the Bolsheviki have suppressed the press and prohibited free speech, refused to permit the people to determine the form of government that they would have under the regularly elected constituent assembly, and since that time there has been no effort made to give the people a voice in the government through a constituent assembly? Miss Beatty. Not through a constituent assembly. You see, they no longer believe in the constituent assembly as a form of govern- ment. Mr. Humes. In other words, they are opposed to equal representa- tion of the people ? 720 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Miss Beattv. They are opposed to representation based upon po- litical control. Mr. Humes. In other words, the Bolshevik government is not free to permit the 80 per cent of the people of Eussia, to wit. the peasants, to participate in the affairs of the government equally with the other people, because they know that the peasants would not permit Bol- shevik rule to long continue. Is not that so? Miss Beatty. I do not think so. I think that is not a fact. I think if you had been in Eussia you would know that it is not. Mr. Humes. Why did they not give the peasants equal repre- sentation in the government ? Miss Be\tty. When the peasants joined the national soviet I was present. In that body the peasants won every point. They got all their demands. At first Lenine and Trotsky stood out against these de- mands, but ultimately the peasants Avere admitted to the national soviet under their own tei'ms. Mr. HriMES. But the fact remains that the representation is five to one against them in the all-Eussian soviet or the :ill-Rnssian council, is it not? Miss Beattt. I do not know. Mr. Hu^rES. Do you not know what the basis of representation is? Miss Beattt. No. jNIr. HmiEs. Have you ever read the constitution of the soviet republic? j\Iiss Beattt. No : I have not. Senator Overma^\ Miss Beatty, we have examined you thor- oughly — about all we want — and I want to give you the free oppor- tunity to state anything you want to state. If you desire to make any statement in addition to what you have said in response to our ques- tions, if you desire to make anv statement to the subcommittee, you may feel free to go on without interruption. Miss Bk\tty. I do not know that I hfive a great deal to say to the committee, except that I wish we might make an honest, open investigation of this subject, because I think it is so serious we can't iifford to be bigoted. It is a pity that I have to argue here. I do not want to argue. Senator OvEnjrAisr. That is the reason we sent for you to come down. You represent what some have referred to as the other side. Miss Beattt. I do not admit that it is a question of side. In a sense I do not represent the other side. One member of the other side will not even spealt on the platform Avith me because he says I am a bourgeois. So you .see I am not a partisan in this thing. Senator Steelixo. If you will permit me, does not that position of the person of whom yoTi speak illustrate the fatal defects in the Bolshevik system? Miss Beattt. Well, that is an individual defect. There are many revolutionists who are very disagreeable people. But there are many of us in all walks of life who are very disagreeable. Senator OvEnMA>\ I do not want the gentlemen here to ask her any questions until she has had an opportunity to make a full state- ment. If you do not represent the other side, or what people have called the other side, they have asked to have you here, and we take great pleasure in having you here to make any statement that you BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ( 721 I • _ _ 1 desire, without interruption. Of course, we might hpivei to interrupt if you should go outside of what we think is proper, but I know you will not do that. Miss Beattt. Senator Overman, I want to say that during my eight months in Eussia I met a number of men, some of whom have testified here. Some of those who have testified here know nothing about the masses of the Russian people. I met them at dinners and I met them at dances, but I never met them anywhere where the masses of the people were gathered. Senator Overman. And you did not expect to meet them? Miss Beattt. No; absolutely not. I only want to say that we should try to know — we can not know, but we should try to under- stand — what the Russian people are thinking, what they are driving at, what are the ideals that actuate them. I personally spent just as much time with one group as with an- ' other. I had friends among princes and friends among peasants and workers. Up to August, 1917, I had never met a Bolshevik. One day I heard something about one which made me think that he must be honest and an idealist, and I asked to meet him. I became con- vinced that he was honest and an idealist, and I asked to meet more and more of them. When I went to Russia I was in favor of the Kerensky govern- ment. I thought Kerensky was the man who could best amalgamate the Russian forces and could best help to win the war, and I was deeply disappointed that he had to be overthrown. I believed that he was going to be, because everywhere I went I found evidences of this. For instance, I went to Helsingf ors and visited the central committee of the Baltic fleet. Up to the time of the Korniloff revolt there were 18 Bolshevist members and no anarchists in this commit- tee. But a little after that there were 45 Bolshevist members and 3 anarchists in a total membership of 60. This was before the Bolshe- vik revolution, you see, and it seemed to me that this was an indica- tion of the movement of the masses. They were sweeping away from Kerensky ; and at the time of the Kerensky revolution America was practically the only country standing by him. The Russian masses had deserted him, and the other allies were trying to place Savan- ikof in power. Kerensky was quite alone. It seemed there was noth- ing to uphold his power. I wished that he might have been backed, because I thought he would work out an orderly government. Then there was this soviet. I said, " This is a fact. You can not know the Russian situation without knowing the facts, and the soviet is a fact." I tried to find out what its power and force was. For a time I did some work with the Red Cross, and I prolonged my stay in Eussia for that purpose longer than I had intended, to try to find out what people were thinking. I was out among the crowds, with inter- preters, day and night. Senator Overman. You do not speak Russian? Miss Beatty. Just a little; not as you have to speak Russian to get along. But I did feel that they were misrepresenting things even at that time, over there. Being a newspaper woman, I knew how news is made, and it is very difficult to get at the facts. For instance, in Petrograd it was reported that there was a riot down in the Caucasus and that thousands of people were killed. A week later 85723—19 46 722 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. some one -wIk was there reported that this was not true. But denials were never wfered. There undoubtedly is red terror in Russia, and it must be fright- ful ; but I think it material that we should loiow what are its causes as well as its effects — what it is — do you see ? And I feel that we can never work out any solution that will avoid trouble in this country or any other country in the world unless we face all the facts ; unless we will see what the working people want and what can be done to give them what they need — what they must have. There will be clashes that will mean disruption and disillusionment and terror for all of us. I think that if you note the quantity of space the news- papers are giving to this whole question of economic unrest, you will feel that it is a most important thing which you are now investigat- ing. I do not think that- a committee coiild be faced with a more difficult task or have a greater reason for analyzing testimony, for hearing every witness, and getting all the facts. I admit and claim that having come away from Eussia a year ago I can not know all that is going on. But I do claim that I can better judge what is going on there than people who never have been there, because I was closely associated with the worlring people and Imow perhaps better how they will react to certain things than I would know if I had never got close to them. I do not think I have anything else to add. Senator Oveejian. We are very much obliged to you. But I would like to know one thing. We are glad to have you here, and we asked the Senate to continue these hearings so that the other side might be heard, because we want to get the truth, as you say. But I want to ask you what is the extent of this menace, as I would call it, of bolshevik propaganda in this country? What do you laiow about it? Is there any such thing? Do you think there is such a thing going on as trying to get our people to adopt the methods of the Bol- sheviki ? Miss Beatty. I think there is a great movement on the part of the masses of the workers in many of the cities to bring about such a thing as that. I do not believe there is any very extensive amount of propaganda done to create that situation. I know there is a man here, a Finn— an American-Finn — who is conducting a bureau of in- formation, of Russian information, who is getting out a bulletin. Senator Nelson. What is his name? Miss Beattt. Mr. Nuorteva. Senator Nelson. Where is he located ? Miss Beaity. In New York. Senator Nelson. Headquarters there? Miss Beatty. Yes. ISenator Nelson. Whom has he cooperating with him ? Miss Beatty. I do not know. Senator Overman. It is shown here that we have a great many bulletins — papers of all kinds. Do you know how they get the money to print them ? Do you have any idea, of your own knowledge, how they get the funds? Miss Beatty. I do not believe there are any funds to amount to anything. The people whom I know, who have been speaking m favor of the soviet government, are all poor and have not any money. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 723 Senator Overman. It takes money to do this. Miss Beatty. That is why I say I do not believe there is any very extensive propaganda in this country. Mr. Humes. Do you now know that Nuorteva is receiving money from Eussia and Finland ? Miss Beattt. I heard that he received one check from Russia, but that is all I Imow about. Mr. Humes. Do you not know that the Russian government made an appropriation for the purpose of undertaking to interfere politi- cally in the affairs of other countries than their own, and doing a thing that you say this country ought not to do in Russia ? Miss Beatty. I know that there was an appropriation of 2,000,000 rubles for foreign propaganda. Senator Overman. We are very much obliged to you. Miss Beatty. Mr. Humes. Mr. Keddie. TESTIMONY OF ME. FEANK KEDDIE. (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) Senator Overman. Your name is Frank Keddie? Mr. Keddie. Yes, sir. Senator Overman. How old are you? Mr. Keddie. Thirty years. Senator Overman. Are you an American? Mr. Keddie. No; I am Scotch. Mr. Humes. Where do you reside? Mr. Keddie. Edinburgh. Mr. Humes. How long have you been in this country ? Mr. Keddie. I have just come. I have been here about six weeks, I think, from the end of January when I arrived in Seattle. Mr. Humes. Is this the first time you have ever besen in this country ? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Mr. Humes. What organization were you connected with in Eussia ? Mr. Keddie. The Society of Friends. I was working with the Society of Friends in Russia. I have been there since the fall of 1916 and left last December. Mr. Humes. Were you the representative of the American Society of Friends? Mr. Keddie. Yes ; we were working together. Mr. Humes. How did you happen to come to this country instead of going home ? Mr. Keddie. Because I had business to do in Vladivostok; and of course I could have gone from Shanghai around by Marseilles, but I wanted to come this way. Mr. Humes. You are just in this country on your way back ? Mr. Keddie. I am on my way home. Mr. Humes. During what period of time were you in Russia ? Mr. Keddie. From the autumn of 1916 until December. I left Vladivostok last December. Mr. Humes. When did you leave European Russia ? Mr. Keddie. In October, last. 724 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. What part of European Russia were you in during the time that you were in Eussia ? Mr. Keddie. Well, I was in charge, most of the time, of the indus- trial unit work. We had a unit of about 36 people. I was in charge of the industrial end of it. In the course of my work I traveled about a good deal. I stayed in Petrograd and in Moscow, Nijni Novogorod, Samara, and I have stayed in Omsk, in Irkutsk, Harbin, and Vladi- vostok. I had a year's lessons in the language before I went to Eus- sia, and I can speak Eussian fairly well. Mr. Humes. Where were you at the time of the March revolution ? ilr. Keddie. In the town of Samara on the Volga. Mr. Humes. Wlieie wei'e you at the time of the Bolshevik revolu- tion in Xovember ? Mr. Keddie. I was down on the way to the town of Uralsk, in the Cossack country district of Uralsk. Mr. Humes. You weie back in Petrograd after that time? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Mr. Hujies. When did you go back to Petrograd ? Mr. Keddie. I was there at the time of the peace parley at Brest- Litovsk. That was about the beginning of the year 1918. Senator Overman. What were you doing over there? Mr. Keddie. With the Society of Friends, doing relief work among the refugees. When the German troops advanced into Poland, there were something like seven million refugees scattered over Eussia. The Eussians had no organization to take care of them. Senator Xelson. What organization? Mr. Keddie. The English Society of Friends. They are Quakers. Mr. Humes. For how long a period of time were you in Petrograd after the Bolshevik revolution? Mr. Iveddie. I stayed there about three weeks. Mr. Humes. About three weeks ? Mr. Keddie. About three weeks. Mr. Humes. That would be in January, 1918 ? Mr. Keddie. Yes ; about that time. Mr. HuJiEs. Was that the last time you were in Petrograd? Mr. Keddie. The last time I was in Petrograd. Mr. Humes. Were did you go from Petrograd at that time ? Mr. Keddie. I went down to Moscow. Mr. Humes. How long were you in Moscow ? Mr. Keddie. About the same period; perhaps a little longer; a month about. I have been in Moscow a few times, but this particular occasion for about a month. Mr. Humes. Where did you go from there? Mr. Keddie. Back to Omsk in Siberia. Mr. Hu3ies. Back into Siberia? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Mr. HuJiES. How long were you in Siberia ? Mr. Keddie. Perhaps it would be more useful if I stated exactly how it happened. . Mr. Humes. No ; I just wanted to locate you during this period ot time, first. How long were you in Siberia ? Mr. Keddie. Well, I have been there, back and forwards, several times. I stayed there perhaps in all about two months. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 725 Mr. Humes. About two months ? Mr. Keddie. Yes; in all. Mr. HujrEs. How much of the time since ^^ou went to Moscow have you been back to European Russia on these trips that you have made? Mr. Keddie. The bulk of my experience is drawn from the Samara government. I stayed there in jthat particular government longer than in any other one place. Mr. Humes. The Samara government? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Mr. Humes. You have little knowledge of the conditions in Moscow and Petrograd after February and March, 1918, from your personal observation ? Mr. Keddie. Yes. The bulk of my experience is drawn from the peasants. Mr. Humes. Now, what was the situation in Petrograd during the two or three weeks that you spent there in January, 1918, during the peace conference? Mr. Keddie. The situation was rather bad, and the food question was very bad and the people were very divided as regards making peace — a separate peace— with Germany. The real people of Russia have all the time, I think, been just as anti-Prussian as any other people. Senator Nelson. What was this last statement? Mr. Keddie. The Russian people have been anti-Prussian all the time, and antimilitaristic. Senator Nelson. Anti-German? Mr. Keddie. Anti-German. They were not against the German working people, but against the German military system. Mr. Humes. What was the situation in January, 1918, in Petro- grad in reference to the situation of the Bolsheviki ? Mr. Keddie. Well, of course, they were not properly in the saddle of government then. There was considerable difference of opinion. Of course those who had property were against the Bolsheviki movement. Mr. Humes. Now, wait a moment. You say they were not in con- trol of the government then ? Mr. Keddie. Excuse me, if you would listen to what I say — I say they were not properly in the saddle of the government. They had not, so to speak, properly got hold of the reins of government. Mr. Humes. When would you say that they properly got hold of the reins of the government ? Mr. Keddie. The whole situation has been developing all the time. Mr. Humes. Do you mean by that that they are not properly in control of the reins of the government now ? Mr. Keddie. They are now. Mr. Humes. When did they get proper hold of the reins ? Mr. Keddie. After they had actually made the separate peace ; after Lenine had made the speech in Moscow describing what his policy was, that they were against making a separate peace, the terms were so hard, but that they considered it was something like having an interval to get breath. Mr. Humes. When was that? 726 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Keddie. Well, that was, I think, about March, just after I had been in Petrograd, when I went down to Moscow. Mr. Humes. While you were in Moscow ? Mr. Keddie. After the government came from Petrograd. They came from Petrograd and went down to Moscow and took over the National Hotel and the Hotel Metropole. Mr. Humes. Tell us what the actual condition was as to there being terror or being peace and good order during and up to the time that you went to Moscow, during this period that you say the Bolsheviki did not have a proper hold on the reins. What was the internal situation? Mr. Keddie. The internal situation with regard to atrocities — ^take that point first. I think, to make that clear, it is necessary to bear in mind the military situation as it was at that time. You remember how Lloyd George sent over Arthur Henderson to Eussia. Kerensky had sent word saying Russia was played out; Russia could not fight any longer from a military point of view. Lloyd George sent over Mr. Arthur Henderson, one of the labor leaders. He laid his head together with Kerensky, and suggested the Stockholm conference ; suggested a peace by negotiation. Arthur Henderson went back. He resigned from the government. He was in favor of a peace by negotiation. He resigned from the government in England; and while this was going on, this talk about a separate peace, a peace bj' negotiation, Lenine had come back. Lenine had come through Germany. Lenine was making speeches in various parts of Russia. The newspapers Avere saying — some newspapers said he should be shot; other newspapers said he ought to be put in prison. But he continued to speak. Kerensky had been the popular idol for something like five months. As his power gradually waned, so did the power of Lenine gradually rise. For instance, Lenine was the only man in the country who advocated peace, and land to the people. Lenine went to Mr. Humes. Now, wait a minute. Mr. Keddie. I am leading up to this point of atrocities. Would you excuse me just a second? Senator Overman. Answer his question. Mr. Humes. I can not let you go on because I think you have made a misstatement, and I want to see if I understood you correctly. You say that Lenine was the only man that advocated peace and land to the people. Had not Kerensky already turned the land over to the people? Mr. Keddie. Kerensky did not advocate peace at that time, because Kerensky Mr. Humes. But he had turned the land over to the people ? Mr. Keddie. No ; at the time of Kerensky's revolution, at the first revolution, it had not penetrated down, for instance, in the Samara government, where I was, because the people had not taken the land over. The people did not actually take the land over until Lenine brought out his decree to nationalize the land. Mr. Hu:mes. That is, where you were they had not taken the land over? Mr. Keddie. Yes. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 727 Mr. Humes. All right ; go ahead. Mr. Keddie. Now, to go back to where we were. Lenine, I say, was taking his life in his hands, because the newspapers were writing against him, saying he should be put in prison ; some said he should be shot; and being a man who advocated peace and land to the people, of course, the people listened to him. Lenine devoted a great deal of his time to Helsingfors. Helsingfors was the headquarters of the Eussian Baltic Fleet. The sailors of the Russian Baltic Fleet have been worse treated than the sailors, I believe, of any other fight- ing service in the world. I have talked with some of those sailors. I have had the opportunity of living with them — not for very long ; just for about three days or so. These people, when they heard Lenine's message of peace and land to the people, they said. That is the man for us." Then you have heard this morning about this bid for power that Korniloff made. Gen. Korniloff, a Cossack general, made one bid for a military dic- tatorship. The idea was supposed to be that there was some plot be- between Korniloff and Kerensky. Kerensky was to be the premier; Korniloff was to be the dictator. At any rate, he was to march with a division — a Dika division, it was called, a wild division — from Pskof, and take Petrograd. This scheme collapsed somehow or other, and these Helsingfors sailors came to Petrograd. The Aurora, a little Russian gunboat, came up the Neva, and by force Kerensky was compelled to leave, and the soviet simply became the government. The point I want to make here is how it simply evolved. First of all, you had the Czar, who was forced to abdicate. Then you had a government made up of men like Prince Lvoff and Miliukov and Eodzianko, men who in the days of the Czar were known as cadets, or liberals. They were liberal capitalists, however; they were landed proprietors. The peasants knew their land policy. The soviet had come to life again, the soviet, which had been created in 1906, and was playing a rather important part in criticizing and adopting a kind of watchful attitude on the policy of Prince Lvoff and Miliukov and Eodzianko. The latter could not hold together, because at this time the newspapers — for instance, the Russko Slovo — were writing that Russia must have Constantinople. The newspapers were refer- ring to it as Czargrad. Now, the average Eussian peasant did not know where Czargrad was. He did not know where Constantinople was, and did not care. Of course, Miliukov was the foreign minister at that time and was considered to be an able man. Many of the more or less bourgeoisie elements throughout the country believed in Miliu- kov. He tried to carry on. But it was unsatisfactory. There was a good deal of difference of opinion between the government of landed proprietors and the soviet, and Kerensky became gradually one of the important men associated with Miliukov. Then the newspapers still were crying about one more offensive. It was always " One more offensive, and the Germans will be beaten " ; always " One more offen- sive"; and the people in the villages, of course, were beginning to grow war weary. Things continued to drift along. Then the people came out in the streets of Petrograd and shouted, "Away with Miliukov," asking him 728 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. to resign. He resigned, and then Kerensky took on other men of similar ideas to his own; men like Tseretelli, Tereshchenko, and Skobelev, social revolutionaries. They tried to continue the war policy. They were what you would call moderate socialists, but they were in favor of carrying on the war. Senator Nelson. Against Germany? Mr. Keddie. Against Germany ; yes. They were in favor of carry- ing on the war ; and then it was, at this time, of course, that Arthur Henderson had come. He conferred with Kerensky, and Kerensky advised him that Russia was played out ; that Russia could not fight any longer ; that Russia wanted peace by negotiation. Then Keren- sky's government had drawn up its peace terms, something like President AMlson's 14 points in some ways. For instance, they wanted a peace without annexations and without indemnities. Senator Sterling. Arthur Henderson was a labor leader in England ? , Mr. Keddie. Yes; that is right, and he advocated this Stockholm conference. He went back and reported to Lloyd George, and they had some difference of opinion, and he resigned. While all this was going on, while Kerensky was tied to the allies — he was being financed by the allies — he went clown to the front, try- ing to get the soldiers to make another offensive. He made one or two compromises. For instance, he allowed the soldiers to abolish the death sentence. The death sentence was not carried out as formerly, and of course the soldiers began to think a little more. There was not the same chance of the soldiers being shot. They began to think just a little more, and of course when they were thinking a lot it was rather difficult for them to fight a lot. So things developed like that, and it was at this time that Lenine was taking his life in his hands and going about the country speaking. I have referred to how the Helsingfors sailors played such an important part, coming there to Petrograd and very largely by force holding Petrograd up, more or less, and the soviet simply became the government. So the one thing evolved out of the other, very largely owing to the war weariness of the people. Mr. Humes. Finally the Bolsheviki had their revolution in Novem- ber, and took control of the government, did they not? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Mr. Humes. Tell us what the conditions were following that, up to the time you left Petrograd. Mr. Keddie. When they got into power and became the govern- ment, and when they made the separate peace, it is rather important to know, of course, that they Senator Nelson. I think he should state those preliminaries. Go on in the way you were. Mr. Humes. Yes. Mr. Keddie. Thanks. Senator Nelson. Go on and state the connection. Mr. KJEDDLE. Thanks very much. I think it is rather important, Senator, to try and get how the one thing leads on to the other, be- cause that is the whole situation in Russia, as I believe it. When they made the separate peace, for instance, many of the people were against the terms that Germany imposed on them; tha BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 729 terms were so hard. First one delegation went to Brest-Litovsk, and then they came hack and reported the hard terms the Germans wanted. Then Trotzky went back again. Trotzky was one of those of the second lot. Senator Nelson. Let me call your attention to this. There was first a preliminary effort to make a treaty, and the Bolshevik government would not agree to it. Mr. ICeddie. Yes. Senator Nelson. And then the Germans made an advance and got within 50 miles of Petrograd. Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Nelson. And then they went to work and made the final treaty ? Mr. Keddie. Yes ; they went back again. Senator Nelson. Go on. Mr. Keddie. And Trotzky made this effort. He sort of threw out — like a little David, he threw out the stone of an idea at the big German Goliath, and said, '' Well, advance if you dare, if the Ger- man democracy will allow you to advance." At Petrograd I saw a procession of German prisoners who carried a banner saying that they protested against the terms which Germany was imposing, the terms were so hard. Well, this caused a great deal of talk through- out Eussia, and of course you laiow in the end (I do not want to delay you too long) they signed the peace treaty. Then the soldiers began going home. America, I believe, had something like 4,000,000 troops under aims, and the authorities say it will take about a year to demobilize scientifically. Eussia had something like fifteen million troops under arms, and they demobi- lized in a month. It was not demobilization at all ; it was simply one mad rush home. They got on the tops of trains, inside the trains, on the buffers, on horseback, and in carts — any way possible. They sold government property. They sold anything to anybody so as to enable them to get home; they were so war weary. They set off along the roads ; and when their money was finished and their food was finished they would knock at some castle gate for food (the house of some big man or a house in a village) . Sometimes the watchman in this house would fire on them, and, of course, these Eussian soldiers fired back. They had got a kind of iron cross if they killed a certain number of Germans. They were rather brutalized when they got back. When they were coming home and could not get food and the watchman fired at them they fired back, and a good many atrocities happened in that way — a good many so-called atrocities. Then these men actually returned home to their villages. I have seen many of them arrive in the villages. They brought their rifles back with them. When they got home they found their cottages in a very wretched condition. Of course, during this transition period the Eussian Government had not been paying separation allowances in the proper way. Things had broken down a good deal, and the soldiers' widows had had a hard time to get along. Prices Tiad been rising. Every- body was away fighting, and those who were not fighting were mak- ing munitions, and consequently food got dear and prices continued to rise. The soldier's^wif e might have sold her horse or her cow or a 730 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. few sheep, if she ^Yas rich enough to have any, and when she sold her horse, of course, she could not work the land very well. Then she would sell something else off in order to keep the home going, and the home became rather denuded and rather poor. It was a condition something like that that the soldier found when he got back to his home, very often after fighting two or three years, sometimes without an arm, sometimes without a leg, having been wounded three or four times, having been rather badly fed and badly treated. So he goes back and he finds his home in this wretched condition. So he says to himself, " What is it all about, anyway ? Whom have I been fighting for ? Have I been fighting for Russia ? Well, that means Russia is mine." At this point I would like to digress just a moment. If you con- sider the story — ^the Bible story — of the rich man who fared sump- tuously every day and clothed himself in purple and fine linen, and the beggar, Lazarus, who sat on the doorstep, and the dogs came and licked his sores, and he lived on the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table; something like that was going on in Russia. Ninety per cent of the people were living on the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. They were sent away to fight. They were like cannon fodder. They did not know what it was all about. Then they came back, and instead of being content to live on the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table they simply rose up and overset the table; and that is something like the condition that has taken place in Russia. Now, with regard to the villages, when these soldiers did get back, about this time the news came out of Lenine having nationalized the land. The decree was published. Now, when you talk about the land question I would just like to go back to 1916. When I went there, about the end of 1916, I was being driven along by a Russian peasant in one of these Russian carts which they use in the Samara district — a tarantass. He was an old man, about 68 or 70, perhaps, a tall, thin, spare man, a typical Russian peasant, with a long, flow- ing beard, and fine features, a fine-shaped head ; the kind of a man Moses must have been; rather a commanding presence he had. So I asked him about the land system. He explained to me the land system around there as it was in the Samara government. He said : " It is just like this. The peasant works the land." Of course, all the peasants live in the villages, and they all live adjoining each other. They do not live on their farms. The average Russian village is usually one long street. " When he goes to work on his land he has to go 10 or 15 versts on the one side one year, and he camps out there in the springtime, does his sowing, and he does his harvesting in the summer time. Then the next year he goes 10 or 15 versts upon the other side, and then the next year he goes 10 or 15 versts on the other side. There is no inducement for him to improve the value of his land." So I asked this old peasant, I said, " Why do you have such a stupid system ? " " Well," he said, " we peasants are fools. We are blind." And he put his hand up to his eye, and he said, " Before the Russo-Japanese War we were blind.". And he said, "After the Russo-Japanese War" — and he put up his hand to his eyes, and he half opened his eyes, and he said — " that is how we were after the Russo-Japanese War; and then after this war" — and this BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 731 Tvas while the war was going on — he put his hand up to his eyes und opened them as wide as they would go and opened his mouth as wide as it could go, and he said, " That is how we are now." By opening his mouth he meant to say that he wanted a little more of the good things of life. Now that was about the situation with regard to land tenure. The system of land tenure was bad. The landed proprietors were to "blame — something like 7 per cent, or, at most, say, 10 per cent. You ■see, Russia is an agricultural country. Ninety per cent of the people are the hewers of wood and the drawers of water. They have con- tinued to work and work and work. They have really been expro- priated from their real, lawful rights for the last 300 years. The prerequisites of revolution were already there. It only took a war ■where the Russian infantry were mowed down by Hindenburg's heavy artillery and Hindenburg's machine guns — it only took a war to bring things to a head ; and so the situation developed. Now, with regard to these soldiers, when they got back to the villages, and when the land was nationalized by Lenine, they would go up to the landed proprietor, and very often he had about half a dozen estates, and if the landed proprietor had been a decent man to them and treated them well in years gone by, the peasants would go up to him and say, " Now, we do not want to turn you out. We know you have been a decent man. You have got half a dozen estates. You can only live in one house at a time. You keep one and we will take over the others;" and that same thing has hap- pened all over. Then there would be the other type of landed pro- prietor, a very decent man, but narrowminded, the kind that could only see his point of view. Very good hearted he was, really, but ow- ing to the narrowness of his education he could not see the case for the other 90 per cent. He thought the peasant was made of inferior clay, and he would not talk to the peasant, it was beneath him to talk to the peasant, and his argument usually consisted in pulling out a revolver and firing it. Of course when it came to firing a revolver all the force was on the other side, because the soldiers had brought their rifles home with them, and it sometimes happened that so-called atrocities of that sort occurred. Now with regard to the taking over of the land, you know that just well as I do, but I want tO' give my experience as I found it in the Samara government, or around the outlying districts there. All the land titles there to the land surrounding the villages were held by the village, the local mir, the village mir, or the local soviet, and you got as much land as you could work according to the number of mouths you had to feed. The average citizen there, with six in a family, got about 75 acres. Now, if you wanted to go to another village you could not sell that land. It reverted back to the village. It was yours only so long as you worked it. Senator Nelson. The land, as a matter of fact, belonged to the village ? Mr. Keddie. That is right. Senator Nelson. As a community? Mr. Keddie. Yes; the title was vested in the village, and it was yours only so long as you would work it. You could not sell it. If you wanted to go away to another village you simply gave up your 732 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. right, and they would just give it to somebody else. And with regard to the estate, for instance, the landed proprietor was treated in the same way. If lie was a wealthy man and had lots of flocks and herds and horees (some of them had camels, because they use camels in the Samara government, in the winter time and in the summer; it is very strange; but the camels are very easily fed; they can eat hay and salt, and are so much easier and cheaper to keep than a horse) the live stock was very often divided up in this way. A list was made up by the village mir. A soldier's Avidow — and there were always a good proportion of them in the average Russian \illagfr— or a sol- dier without an arm, or a soldier without a leg, the men who had been hurt and disabled, and those who were poor — generally there was an order of precedence according to the need, and they received a horse or a cow or a few sheep. Xow, I have been at those divisions. I have seen them. Senator Nelson. This was under the old system? Mr. Keddie. No, no ; this was when the Bolsheviks came along, you see, because it was only when Lenine nationalized the land, when the soldiers got back, after making the sejiarate peace, that it was possible for these things to happen. So that is how they did it. The list was made out according to the need, and the soldier's widow would get a cow or a horse; and a few brothers, if they had been aAvay fighting, they would get something ; and so on. It Avas according to the need, as a rule. There was a good deal of squabbling, it is true, but there was never any shooting. It is untrue to say that the landed pro- prietor, as a general rule, was shot. Very often the landed projDrietor was to blame, himself. It is true to say that sometimes tlie peasants were to blame. You can understand the situation, if you can only put yourselves in the place of the Russian peasant, if you can only go through the psychological changes that he Avent through ; simply sent off to fight, cannon fodder ; brought up in a village Avhere he had no school, no church, nothing done to help him. The situation Avas really scandalous from the point of view of these Russian peasants. They had no chance at all. They simply grew up, and the labor supply was great, the industrial system Avas bad, there was ahvays plenty of cheap labor; and of course bitterness got into the soul of the poor peasant, and it is illustrated by Tolstoy's saying which the peasants understand quite well, " The rich will do everything to help the poor but get off their back." It is true, of course, that all this upheaval has come about by illiterate peasants; but still, it was not difficult for the peasant to understand that he was robbed. Senator Sterling. Did it begin Avith the peasant, or did it begin with the workman? Mr. Keddie. My point is, I am describing the situation in the Samara govememnt. I only want to talk about what I do know my- self, what I ha,ve seen, and not so much from the towns. I told you that my experience in the towns is not so good as my experience in the country. Senator Steeling. Do you not understand, however, that as a gen- eral proposition it began not with the Russian peasant, the tiller of the land, but with the workmen, and that they began the trouble to begin with? Mr. Keddie. Yes ; it is true to say that it began in that way. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 733 Senator Steeling. Yes. Mr. Keddie. But, at the same time, the man who matters in Russia is the Russian peasant. If to know the Russian peasant it is neces- sary to live in 30 or 40 villages in European Russia, and perhaps say in about another 20 in Siberia, as I have done, I claim that I know something about what the Russian peasant is, his ideals, his aspira- tions. He is only asking for his lawful rights. He is only trying to create a new social order ; and, after all, that is what Bolshevism is, an attempt to create a new social order in which it will be im- possible for a rich man, no matter how rich, for a clever man, no matter how clever, for a hardworking man, no matter how hard- working — in which it shall be made impossible for that man to domi- nate to an injurious degree the lives of other men, women, and children. Senator Overman. That is what they propose? Mr. Keddie. And that is what they are trying to work out. Senator Overman. Is that what they are working out? Mr. Keddie. That is what they are trying to work out. Now, with regard to the conditions when the Bolsheviki got into power Senator Overman. How do you know that is what they are trying to work out? Mr. Keddie. Well, for instance, from what the peasants tell me. Senator Overman. I am not talking about the peasants. I am talking about the government that is in authority — Trotzky and Lenine. Mr. Keddie. Well, they say so, too. Senator Overman. Have you talked to them? Mr. Keddie. No ; I have not spoken to them. Senator Overman. They have made glorious promises, have they not? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Overman. But have they carried out those promises? Mr. Keddie. Well, I think they have carried out some of them. Senator Overman. Some of them? Mr. Keddie. Yes. They have given the land to the people. Senator Sterling. How about the industries of Russia ? Mr. Keddie. Yes ; I am just coming to that in a little while. That is rather the weak point of the Bolshevik government, as applied to industry; but with regard to bolshevism as applied to agriculture, it has been successful. Mr. Humes. Let me ask you, now, in connection with the distri- bution of this livestock. That livestock was loaned to the people, then, was it ? It was not given to them ? Mr. Keddie. Yes ; it was actually given to them. Mr. Humes. Under the constitution of the government, all live- stock is nationalized, and becomes the property of the state. Mr. Keddie. That is quite true. You know quite well, sir, that when you had your Revolutionary War, when you were wise enough to govern your own affairs, what happened was that it took America something like eight years to settle down and get a start, and it will be something like the same thing in Russia. You can say anything is written in the constitution, but Russia is such a tremendously big country. 734 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. But Russia has a constitution to-day. Mr. Keddie. Yes. Mr. Humes. They have already adopted their constitution. Mr. Keddie. Yes, but you know that the railways are bad ; the com- munication is bad. You know that it is a country about four and a half times the size of the United States, forty-four times the size of France. You know perfectly well that it is difficult to get these peasants, who are ignorant, to understand the decrees that are sent out from Moscow. What they do understand is, the land is given to them. Mr. Humes. Are we to understand you to say that the livestock has not been nationalized, even though the constitution provides that it shall be? Is that correct? Mr. Keddie. In the Samara government it was handed over to the peasants as their personal property. Mr. Humes. Do you know what has been done in reference to it anywhere else than in the Samara government ? Mr. Keddie. Yes ; I have seen it in some other villages around the Omsk and Tschelyabinsk districts. Mr. Humes. Then the Bolshevik government in operation is en- tirely different, or at least considerably different, from the Bolshevik government as it is mapped out on paper ? Mr. Keddie. Yes. I think that is not peculiar to Bolshevik gov- ernments. I think every other government has a constitution of one kind ; but while America has got about nine men sitting in permanent session always interpreting what the Constitution means, how can you wonder at a poor ignorant peasant not understanding exactly what the constitution is? Mr. Humes. I am not talking about the peasant; I am talking about the application of these laws. Well, go ahead with your statement. Senator Overman. Have you been over this country preaching Bolshevism to our people? Mr. Keddie. No; I have not been preaching bolshevism. I have spoken at a few meetings, but I have particularly been describing the Friends' work. I am going home to Scotland as quickly as I can get there; I hope to sail in a week or so. I have been speaking on Friends' work, and have been answering questions with regard to bolshevism because I have been in Russia. Senator Nelson. Are you going back to Russia ? Mr. Keddie. I want to if I can. Senator Nelson. What do you want to do when you get back? Mr. Keddie. I want to go back for the Society of Friends and do relief work. Senator Nelson. What do you expect to do when you get there? Mr. Keddie. Well, the same kind of work as we have been doing. What Russia wants is a number of teachers. Send as many people as you like, but let them be teachers. Senator Nelson. 'What do you propose to teach them? Mr. Keddie. What we have been doing in our villages. Senator Nelson. I mean what do you propose to teach them, when you get back ? ■ Mr. Keddie. I am going to continue BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 735 Senator Nelson. What do you propose to do ? Mr. Keddie. By instituting libraries; having libraries in the vil- lages; having trades schools for the boys and girls, so that they can learn a trade, a chance that they have not- had. The great trouble in Eussian villages is that in the summer time the peasant can work, but in the long, weary winter months, there is little for them to do, and they have had no education and they have had no libraries. Senator Nelson. Here is one thing that I want to call your at- tention to. You complained a moment ago about the old Eussian system Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Nelson. Where the land had been assigned by the mir, the community, did you not? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Nelson. And that the land was simply apportioned to the peasants, to be cultivated. One year it would be on this side and the next year on the other side of the village ? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Nelson. Wherein does this new system differ from that — this new land system of the Bolshevik government — where the state assumes the ownership of the land and simply proposes to apportion the use of it to the workers ? Mr. Keddie. It differs in this way, that before, you had the landed proprietor ■ Senator Nelson. No, I mean now. Do not get off the fence. Mr. Keddie. I am not getting off the fence. Senator Nelson. I refer to the village community. Mr. Keddie. The village community has taken over the land of the landed proprietor. Senator Nelson. No, no, but the land they had. Wherein does this system of the Bolshevik government, in control now, differ from the old mir system that prevailed before? Mr. Keddie. I am telling you, if you will just give me an oppor- tunity to. The landed proprietor does not exist. His land has been taken away from him. Senator Nelson. You know that you are dodging the question. Just listen to me. Did you not say that the land belonged to these village communities? Mr. Keddie. Yes; it is taken over and held by them. Senator Nelson. It was held by them under the Czar's govern- ment, was it not ? Mr. Keddie. Yes, but you must bear in mind Senator Nelson. Was not that so? Did not the land belong to the village communities under the Czar's government? Mr. Keddie. No; it belonged to the landed proprietors. Senator Nelson. In these villages ? Mr. Keddie. Very often. Senator Nelson. 'There you are mistaken; that is not true. In these village communities most 'of it belonged to them. That was a part of the scheme when the serfs were set free. Mr. Keddie. Excuse me, but you said that I said something that is not true. I am only talking of what I have seen, and what I do know; and I can assure you 736 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. And that is in the Samai'a government on the lower Volga. Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Xelson. Is that country occupied by the Cossacks? Mr. Keddie. Xo ; the Cossacks are farther to the south. Senator Nelson. Is not their land system different? Mr. KIDDIE. Quite. Senator Nelson. They own their own lands? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Nelson. They get them in fee for their military service? Mr. Keddie. Yes, and that is the cause of the trouble between the Bolsheviks and the Cossacks. The Bolsheviks inaintain that the Cos- sacks should have the same system as the others. Senator Nelson. And they propose to take the land away from the Cossacks ? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Nelson. I am coming back to the mir system. Under the mir system the land was assigned to the community, and the officials of the community apportioned land for cultivation to a peasant, one year, you say, so many versts on this side and next year so many versts on the other side. Wherein does the present system of the Bolshevik government differ from that system? They had no title before — the peasants — ^they had no individual title before, and they get none now. They get simply the privilege of using what is assigned to them. Mr. Keddie. Now they have got all the land. The landed pro- prietor Senator Nelson. You are dodging the question; you are talking about the landed proprietor and I am talking about the community. Senator Overman. He is talking about the community land, and you persist in getting back to the landed proprietor. Senator Nelson. I want you to keep to your text. I want you to tell me when I ask, and to keep on a straight road a while. Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Nelson. I know something about Russian affairs. Now you are trying to quibble. You kept on the straight road for a while, and told a good story, and now you are dodging. Mr. Keddie. No ; I am not. Just let me answer. Senator Nelson. The point is this. You know that practically there is no difference between the land system of Trotzky and Lenine under the soviet government and the old system that prevailed in these mirs. In neither case was the peasant permitted to own the land in fee that he cultivated. Is not that true ? Mr. Keddie. No ; it is not. I have listened now to you for about 10 minutes, and will you not please let me answer with regard to this question? Senator Nelson. I want to caution you. I laiow something about the Russian situation, I have studied it, and if you do not tell the truth, I shall know it. Mr. Keddie. Yes; quite. Under the Samara government we had the landed proprietor who owned, we will say, 150,000 to 200,000 acres of land, that land being very often on the railroad track, and they were holding until such time as the price would rise. Under BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 737 the present system over there, you see, all this land is taken over by the peasants. Senator Nelson. Under those landed proprietors, according to the description you gave a while ago, the land was assigned, one year so many versts on one side and the next year so many on the other ; but that was not the way the landed proprietors did. That was the prac- tice that prevailed in the mir system. Mr. Keddie. The village mir was controlled by the Czar's govern- ment through gendarmes and through the representatives of the land- owning interests, and that is reversed now. Senator Nelson. Do you not know that a large share of the land was secured by the Czar's government for these village mirs, these communities ? Mr. Keddie. Yes ; and I also know that the rich landed proprietor had a tremendous amount of land and the poor peasant got the worst land. Senator Overman. He is not speaking of the landed proprietor. He is speaking of the mir land, as you call it. Senator Nelson. I am speaking of the community land. You get back always to the landed proprietor. Senator Overman. We know that they have taken the land over. Senator Nelson is talking about the land owned by the community. What difference is there between that system and tlae new system? Mr. KEDorB. Only that he has a better choice of land. Before, the landed proprietor had the best land. Senator Nelson. You get off the reservation. You go to the pri- vate lands. Senator Sterling. Did the landed proprietor have any control over the community property, over the land controlled by the vil- large or mir? Did the individual landed proprietor have any con- trol over that — ^the land that Senator Nelson is asking you about and which you say was assigned by the village, the community, to differ- ent peasants, first on one side and then on another side of the vil- lage? Did the landed proprietor have any control of that land? Mr. Keddie. He had control so far as his wealth and power allowed. He had bought up the best land, and therefore the peasants had to be content with inferior land. That is the difference. Senator Nelson. That again brings you back to the land he owned, and does not refer to the village community. We are speaking about the land that was assigned to the mir, that they held as community property. Mr. Keddie. The mir now has all the land. Senator Nelson. Under the mir system the peasants did not get title in fee. They were simply assigned a certain amount of land to cultivate. Mr. Keddie. Sometimes they bought the land. Senator Nelson. Was not that the rule — that the land was assigned to them for cultivation ? Mr. Keddie. Sometimes it was. Senator Nelson. Sometimes ? You know it was generally the case. Mr. Keddie. Not in this district where I was. Senator Nelson. I mean throughout Russia. If you know any- thing about the Russian system of government, that is, the land sys- 85723—19 47 738 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. tern — and as a matter of fact you described it correctly at one time when you were on the right track — you know that the land belonged to the village communities, or the mirs, assigned to them. It was the property of the community, and the conmiunity apportioned the land year by year for cultivation to the peasants ; and the peasant at one time might have land on this side and another year on the other side, and so on. That you stated correctly. But under that system the peasants did cultivate the land and were not the owners of it. It was the community that had the title to the land. Mr. Keddie. Yerv often. Senator Nelson. Very often? That was the general rule outside of the private proprietors. I am speaking of the communities. I say where that system prevailed the peasants did not have title to the land. They simply had the right to cultivate it, and it was assigned to them by the village authorities. Mr. Keddie. They had the right to buy the land. Senator Xelson. Yes; but wherein did that system that simply as- signed the right to cultivate the land from year to year diflfer from this Bolshevik system ''. The only difference is that under that system the conm.iunity owned the land, and under this the state owns it. The state assigns the land for cultivation instead of the community. Mr. Keddie. No. When you talk about the state in Russia and talk about the village council, that is the same thing. Senator Nelson. Wherein does it differ? In neither case does the peasant become the owner of this community land. He has simply the right to cultivate it, and under the Bolshevik system he never can become the owner in fee, as you can in England — and I take it that you are from England ? Mr. Keddie. Scotland. Senator Nelson. He can not become the owner of any piece of land under this new Eussian system. Mr. Keddie. That is true. Senator Nelson. And I take it from your attitude that you rather favor that. Mr. Keddie. Yes. I think it was very unfair that the landed pro- prietor should have 150,000 to 200,000 acres of land Senator Nelson. You rather favor the idea that the Eussian peas- ant should not acquire the ownership of any land, that he should be a cotter, and cultivate a little one year here and the next year over there, the government to control, and that he should keep on living from hand to mouth. That is what you believe in, is it not ? Mr. Kiddie. No ; it is not what I believe in. What I believe in is that the peasant who does the work should control and own the land. Senator Nelson. But he does not own it. You do not give it to him. Mr. Keddie. Oh, yes, he does. Senator Nelson. You know better. Do not equivocate. He never becomes the owner of it in fee simple, as you become the owner of a piece of land in England, if you buy it. Mr. Keddie. That is true, but he gets the produce off that land so long as he works it. Senator Nelson. Why, Uncle Sam can give you a place down here on the commons and allow you to raise cabbages and potatoes on it BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 739 and you get the usufruct, of cabbages and potatoes; but the land is Uncle Sam's and you have no more interest in it than the man in the moon ; and that is the way with the Eussian peasant, and you know it. Senator Steeling. Do you believe in this nationalization of land ? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Steeling. And in the nationalization of personal prop- erty, the nationalization of horses and cattle and sheep? You be- lieve in that, do you ? Mr. Keddie. I believe the means of life, the waterways, the mines, and all the railways, and the necessary means of life, should be owned by the people. Senator Sterling. Well Mr. Keddie. Oh, just excuse me for a second. The point I want to make is that now in Eussia the average intelligent Russian worker believes that capitalism has served a very useful purpose. It has helped industry to organize. But now the system is that the wealth of the country, the wealth of one of these capitalistic concerns, is produced cooperatively, and they want to make it so that the profits should be shared cooperatively, and not go to shareholders who simply invest their money and live on the interest. Senator Nelson. They divide the people into two classes there, the workingman and the capitalist ? Mr. Keddie. No ; there are no capitalists now. Senator Nelson. When you go back to Eussia are you to be classed as a workingman under the soviet government instead of a literary man — as a kind of a Silas Wegg ? They would tell you to go to work and cultivate with a hoe and a spade and a shovel. Mr. Keddie. Not necessarily. Senator Nelson. Are you prepared to do that? Mr. Keddie. No; they do not expect me to do that. They have brain workers ■ Senator Nelson. What do they expect you to do — ^to be a mission- ai'y for the Bolshevik propaganda? Mr. Keddie. No ; under the Eussian system you could go on over there and carry on some very good work, as in this country you can do, quietly and peacefully. The government in Moscow is a govern- ment of law and order. Senator Nelson. To-day? Mr. Keddie. To-day. Where the fighting is going on is largely because the allies have created a steel ring all around Eussia. They have taken Murmansk and Archangel and Odessa, and many other places, and they are financing the enemies of the Bolshevik govern- ment. Senator Nelson.- In the name of the Bolshevik movement Mr. Keddie. Hold on, excuse me for a second. Senator Nelson. You hold on. Have not the allies relieved the Eussians from the bargain of the treaty of Brest-Litovsk ; have not the allies relieved them of that, and did not the Lenine government relinquish and throw up to the Germans the Ukraine, and the Baltic Provinces, Finland and Livonia and Courland, and did not the Lenine government surrender that in the treaty of Brest-Litovsk; 740 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. and did they not give the Germans some two or three hundred mil- lion dollars in gold? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Can I have 10 minutes now, without interrup- tion? Senator Nelson. Well, keep on the straight and narrow path. Senator Overjian. Then you think that your own country is treat- ing the people badly over there ? Mr. Keddie. Yes; I think that the allies should not be there in Russia. I am against re\'olution. I am in favor of accelerating social evolution. It is because of the world-wide situation that I am so anxious about it. If I could give you gentlemen an open mind on the Russian question, and you could solve that, you would solve the same question in England, in Scotland, in Roumania, in Poland, in France, in Italj', for it is a world-wide question. Senator Nelson. And your solution is that you want the Bolshe- vik government to prevail in Russia? Mr. Keddie. If you will just allow me to answer Senator Nelson. Just tell me that. Mr. Keddie. Yes ; but I just want to tell you, if you will allow me to, with regard to what is going on in Russia to-day. I regard it as the one creative social experiment that has come out of the war, and it behooves other countries, where the government is better than the Czar's government was — the Czar's government was rotten at the core, it was built in the sand, and when the wind of democracy came along it blew it away, it fell down, and many good people were hurt ; and they are trying to create a new form of government a.nd social order. It is only an experiment. It has been in opera- tion only IS months. It may fail. But Avhat I do say is. learn the facts. Let us know the truth. We know perfectlj- well what things are not right in our own countiy, and I am talking of England and Scotland and France, and not the United States. We see that the situation is not right. Senator Steeling. Do you think that that is true of the United States, that it is not right ? , Mr. Keddie. No; I do not think so. Senator Nelson. Do you believe that plan of government that they have outlined is the best thing for Russia ? Mr. Keddie. Would you just allow me to answer Senator Nelson. What good does it do to allow you to go on when you do not answer the questions? Mr. I&;ddie. Let me have 10 minutes by my watch. Senator Nelson. Go ahead. Mr. Keddie. The allies have created a steel ring around the Bol- sheviki movement. They have right now 100,000 Czecho-Slovaks, and there are many thousand Americans and British and French and Italians. They control the railroad lines right along to the Ural Mountains. Admiral Kolchak is a dictator, but he does not dictate, because the people in the villages do not pay any atten- tion to him. He has set aside 1,700,000 bushels of grain for vodka, which under normal circumstances would go to starving Petrograd and Moscow. It is criminal to do that. It is being used for vodka. Under the Bolsheviks vodka has not been started again, even though there is necessity for revenue, because the average Russian peasant BOi;SHBVIK PROPAGANDA. 741 does not quite understand what has come about. He knows that he has got the land and that there is safety in his government, but he has not been educated up to the point of paying taxes. When I was in Moscow last there was a tax on pianos and on lamp globes, and there was an income tax which, of course, hardly anybody paid, because nobody was making any income. There was an indirect tax on goods going over the railroad lines, something like 3 to 10 per cent, according to the nature of the goods; but there was one way that Lenine and those that were associated with him could have gotten money out of the peasants, and that was by starting up vodka again. They did not do it, and the peasant is paying a tax — at least he was in the Samara government — on lands, a kind of single tax ; but other taxes he was not paying. Senator Nelson. When you get through I Avould like to have you answer my questions. Mr. Keddie. Excuse me just a second. You have given me only 2 minutes, and I wanted 10. Senator Overman. Go ahead with your 10 minutes. Mr. Kedddb. The situation in Russia, owing to the intervention, is that it is turning moderate socialists, men who have beliefs like Kerensky, into extremists like Maxim Gorky. While I was in Mos- cow I used to find this newspaper, the New Life. This newspaper which he controlled was published in Petrograd, and this newspaper all the time was criticizing the Bolsheviks from the point of view of constructive criticism. Senator Nelson. That is suppressed now, is it not? Mr. Keddie. I do not know whether it is suppressed or not, but as a constructionist I am appealing to-day to try to improve our social order, so that we can all have equality of opportunity. I do not be- lieve in revolutions, for from all points of view they are unscientific. It is for these reasons that I urge we should accelerate our social evo- lution and improve matters. With regard to Maxim Gorky, he was giving this constructive criticism all the time, and then when inter- vention came along, when the allies took Murmansk and Archangel, he said, " I have a choice, I can hardly be on the side of the allies, who are coming along to establish the old order, or I can be on the side of the peasants and workmen's government, and there is only one choice, I shall be with the peasants." There is Martov, another Men- shevik, and there is Tchernotf , who is another revolutionafy, and these men have gone over now to the Bolshevik idea. That does not neces- sarily mean that they believe everything that the Bolsheviks do. In the Bolshevik movement are men of all different shades of opinion ; whereas, on the other hand, if you withdraw your troops out of Siberia and European Russia, the Russian situation Senator Overman. Please let me interrupt. You say that they have gone over to the Bolshevik government. Have they done that as a matter of choice? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Overman. Have not millions of people gone over to that government, as a matter of fact, because of the reign of terror? Mr. Keddie. No ; Tchernoff was up amongst the Czecho-Slovaks in Ekaterinberg. There was no need for him to go. He did not agree with Kolchak. Kolchak tried to arrest him. 742 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. I again repeat the question. Are you -in favor of the present Bolshevik government in Russia as it is planned, and as it is existing to-day? Mr. Keddie. Senator Nelson, you promised to give me 10 minutes. Senator Nelson. You were to take 10 minutes to answer the ques- tion. Mr. Keddie. No; you were to give me 10 minutes to say what I have to say. Senator Overman. Go on; and then we will require you to answer that question after you get through. Mr. Keddie. Yes. I have talked to Ambassador Morris over that same question. He was anxious to get the point of view of the peasants in the villages. He is the American ambassador to Japan. I have also talked to Gen. Graves, the commander in chief of the American troops, perhaps the most broad-minded and finest man I met during the time I have been in Russia or Siberia. My feeling is, after having been over there for two years and four months, that if the allied troops were withdrawn, owing to many people being, so called, in the Bolshevik party, although they are really not of the same opinion, are not so extreme — if the troops were withdrawn, there is a possibility that a moderate opposition would arise to the Bolsheviks, or they would divide among themselves. In other words, I do maintain that the Bolsheviks — or the Russians, rather, I should not say the Bolsheviks — I do maintain that the Russians are the best people to settle their own affairs. If you have a quarrel in your own house, you do not want me to come in and try to settle it. When America was fighting the South, how would she have liked it if France had interfered on one side or the other ? America wants the Monroe doctrine. Why should not Russia have a little Monroe doc- trine of her own? It is true that Kolchak and some of these other people could not stand five minutes, if the allied troops were not there. The mere fact of their being there makes them clearly on the side of privilege and property and reaction. Mr. Humes. Why are you so anxious to go back to Russia to par- ticipate in Russian affairs, if you think that they should be let alone? Mr. Keddie. I am a free man, and I can go to any country in the world that I want to. Senator Nelson. Will you please answer my question? I asked you whether 'you are in favor of the Bolshevik government as exist- ing and planned in Russia to-day ? Mr. Keddie. No. I am in favor of what they are trying to do — trying to create. Senator Nelson. Can you not give a direct answer ? Mr. Keddie. I said no. I am against the use of violence. I am a pacifist. I am against the use of force. Senator Nelson. I thought so. Do you expect to pacify these Bolsheviki when you go over there? Do you expect to stop them using force? Mr. Keddie. I do think that owing to the success that Tolstoi's teaching has had over there in Russia there is a great proportion of people who are nearer being pacifists, who are nearer being Chris- tians from the point of view or peace and war, than any other na- tionality that I know of. BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. 743 Senator Nelson. Would you not think that your first mission as a lover of peace, when you got to Russia would be to stop this Bol- shevik government and the Eed Guard from carrying on a reign of terror ? Would not that naturally strike you as the best missionary wol-k that you could do over there ? Mr. Keddie. Quite ; but Senator Nelson. And you expect to do that, do you — to go over there and pacify the Red' Guard and the revolutionists? Is that your mission ? Mr. Keddie. I go over there to carry on what I consider to be right ; to propagate truth and justice as I understand it. Senator Overman. Now, I have got your viewpoint. I suppose it is the viewpoint of the majority of your people in London, in Great Britain. If these men that have been sent over there, wise men, from England and from France and the United States should say that there is a reign of terror there, and unless we remain there and help the people to work out their salvation there is going to be starvation and a reign of terror there the like of which has never been heard of anywhere, murder and rapine, do you not think that to keep the forces there for the purpose of helping those people to work out their salvation would be to better that condition ? Mr. Keddie. No, sir ; I do not agree to that. That is not the truth. Senator Overman. I am not saying that it is ; but I say, suppose we believe that instead of your viewpoint being correct, the viewpoint of dozens of other people who have been there, who have a different viewpoint, is correct Mr. Keddie. But you are just stating what is not true. The So- ciety of Friends is working in Moscow to-day, cooperating with Tol- stoyans. They are working in Moscow to-day. Everybody is not being shot or killed. I was not shot or killed. Senator Overman. I do not suppose that everybody is being killed ; but I say, suppose what these people say is correct, that if the forces were withdrawn from there, there would be that condition? I am not saying that it is true or that it is not true, but supposing that I believe and that the Government of the United States and the Govern- ment of England and the Government of France believe that that would be the situation, do you not think it would be right for them to stay there? Mr. Keddie. No ; I think the troops should be withdrawn. Senator Overman. I know you think so, but you have not answered my question. Mr. Keddie. Yes. What is it? Senator Overman. Suppose they believed that there would be a reign of terrorism such as the world has never seen, and starvation and rapine and murder in all that country if these troops were taken out of there, would you be in favor of withdrawing them if this Government believed that and France and Great Britain believed it, and as the world believes ? Mr. Keddie. No ; I do not think you can prevent Senator Overman. I am not asking you anything else. Answer my question. Mr. Keddie. But I can not answer for the governments. Senator Overman. But I say, suppose they believed it? 744 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. Mr. Keddie. I can not believe that. Senator Overman. I know you can not believe it, but I am making a supposition. Supposing you did believe it ? Mr. Keddie. No ; that is not a fair question. Senator Overman. Why? Mr. Keddie. No, sir. Senator Overman. Why not? Mr. Keddie. Because I can not believe it. Senator Overman. I am not asldng you to believe it, but I say, suppose you believed from that viewpoint. You are taking it only from your viewpoint. Therefore you are not fair. Mr. Kxddee. I am only speaking from my own viewpoint. Senator Overman. I am asking you, if you did believe it. Mr. Keddie. But I do not believe it. Senator Overman. Answer my question ; if you did believe it Mr. Keddie. No, sir ; I can not believe it. Senator Overman. But I say if you did believe it? Mr. Keddie. That is not a fair question.- Senator Overman. It is a fair question. Mr. Keddie. I am not going to try to believe something that I can not believe. Senator Overman. I know that you do not believe it, but I say, if you did believe it, as I might believe it, and putting yourself in my place, then you would be in my place exactly. I am not putting myself in your place, but I am asking you to put yourself in my place, now, and if you believed that, in my place, as representing the Government, what would you think about it ? Mr. Keddie. How can I answer that, when I can not be in your position ? If I am in your position, I can only think as I think, and I say that the troops should be drawn out. Senator Overman. I have admitted that Mr. Keddie. Oh, a man can not believe what he does not believe. Let us talk about some other question. Senator Nelson. Do you believe that the Bolshevik system should be established in the United States ? Mr. Kja>DiB. No. Senator Nelson. Why? Mr. Keddie. Because I should like to have a better social order of things, which the chances are we might get. Senator Nelson. You think they would get it. You intimated awhile ago that if we would let alone the Bolsheviki in Eussia it would have a good effect on Germany, England, and other countries ; it would tend to infuse the Bolshevik spirit into them. Mr. Keddie. Senator Nelson Senator Nelson. You intimated that awhile ago. Mr. Keddie. Yes. Of course, you have got to understand that what you have in your mind in regard to Bolshevism and what I mean by Bolshevism are two different things entirely. You have in your mind this great monster that is eating up everything and destroy- ing all the time, and you have no idea of the construction Senator Nelson. Is not that what it is? Mr. Keddie. No, sir. Senator Nelson. Is not that what it is to-dav? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 745 Mr. Keddie. No, sir. Senator Nelson. You have not been there for over a year ? Mr. Keddie. I left there in December. Senator Nelson. Yes, and went on the railroad; and that is all you know ? Mr. Keddie. No. And I left in October — European Eussia. Mr. Humes. You left there last summer? Mr. E^eddie. Not last summer. I left in October. I was in Sa- mara. Senator Overman. My dear friend, of course the Bolshevik gov- ernment would protect you and give you a pass and let you go whenever you liked ? Mr. Keddie. They did not. I was imprisoned by the Bolsheviki. Senator Overman. And then they reformed you? Mr. Keddie. No ; I was reformed before they put me in prison. Senator Overman. You had to make your choice, then, like these others, when you were in prison. Senator Nelson. You had to turn Bolshevik, then ? Mr. Keddie. No, sir. Senator Overman. What did they put you in prison for? Mr. Keddie. About the time they took Bozuluk Senator Nelson. Who put you in prison? Mr. Keddie. The Bolsheviki. The Eed Guard. Senator Overman. What did they put you in prison for? Senator Nelson. The Red Guard did not know what your senti- ments were, evidently. Mr. Keddie. That is quite true ; they did not know. They thought that I was in charge of English propaganda there. It happened like this. It was the time of the occupation of the Bolsheviki, and the Czecho-Slovak advance, and you know that they captured the gold supply of the Bolsheviki, 300,000,000 of gold bullion and 200,000,000 of silver bullion. It is now in Moscow. They advanced, and the Czecho-Slovaks had taken Samara, and then they advanced and took Bozuluk. Senator Nelson. Where were you in prison? At what place? Mr. Keddie. I am just going to tell you. Senator Nelson. How long does it take you? Can you not give the name of the place? Mr. Keddie. In Bozuluk. Senator Nelson. Where? Mr. Keddie. In Bozuluk. Senator Nelson. Where is that, on the Volga? Mr. Keddie. It is midway between Samara and Orenburg. Senator Nelson. It is in European Russia? Mr. Keddee. Yes. Senator Nelson. How far south from Perm ? Mr. KEDbiE. It is a long ways from Perm. It is 161 versts from Samara. Senator Nelson. Is it on the Volga? Mr. Keddie. No ; it is on the railway line, along the line that runs to Tashkent. Senator Overman. Now, tell us where they put you in prison. 746 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. Mr. Keddie. We were in Bozuluk, and we attempted to go to our orphanage there. When the refugees were driven from Poland everything Avas all mixed up, and we had something like 140 children in the orphanage. We were running hospitals in the country dis- tricts. American friends were cooperating with us, and we had libraries in every district. We had village industries. For instance, we bought raw hemp and wool and flax and we turned it into mate- rial — into clothing. We paid the refugees for doing it. We paid them the money while they were doing it. Senator Overman. That is not why they put you in jail, is it? I wish you would get to that. I asked you why they put you in jail. Mr. Keddie. I was going from Bozuluk to the orphanage, and I was going to cross the bridge, and I did not know that the Cossacks were so near on the other side, and I was arrested. Senator Overman. By the Cossacks ? Mr. Keddie. No; by the Red Guard. The Cossacks were coming on the other side, and they were fighting against the Red Guards. I was arrested and taken along — three of us were arrested. I was the only one that spoke Russian. We were arrested by four of the Red Guards, and they had riflles and fixed bayonets and hand grenades. They took us to prison. Senator Overman. Why ? Mr. Keddie. Because they thought we were engaged in English propaganda. Mr. Humes. How many of you were locked up ? Mr. Keddie. Only three of ourselves. Mr. Humes. You were not in there long enough to see any of your friends taken out and shot, were you ? Mr. Keddie. 'No, sir. Mr. Humes. You were more fortunate than others ? Mr. Keddie. I do not think that the Bolsheviks killed any more people than the Cossacks. I have spoken with Gen. Dutoff, and he boasted — or rather, I should not say boasted, but he mentioned — ^that he had signed the death warrants of 700 Bolsheviks. Senator Nelson. What has become of those colleagues of yours that were arrested with you ? Mr. Keddie. We got out together, the three of us. Senator Nelson. They were of the same class — Friends ? Mr. Keddie. Yes, sir; they were Friends. One was an American young lady. Senator Nelson. You were not caught in the draft? Mr. Keddie. No ; I was a conscientious objector. I would just like to make another point about what I said of Moscow. When the church was disestablished — when Lenine disestablished the church Senator Nelson. Tell us what the German officers clid. Did they not help to organize the Red Guard and did not the German prison- ers join the Red Guard ? Mr. Keddie. Yes ; there were German prisoners in the Red Guard, it is true. Senator Nelson. And did not the German officers help them to organize that force? Mr. Keddie. It is commonly said so. Senator Nelson. How? BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 747 Mr. Keddie. It is commonly said so. Senator Nelson. And did not the Germans, so far as they could, cooperate with the Red Guard there and with the Bolshevik gov- ernment ? Mr. Keddie. Yes; many Germans actually became Bolsheviks — really became believers in this system of government. Senator Nelson. Evidently some of them have carried it back to Germany now, according to last accounts. Mr. Keddie. Yes; that was done through the propaganda which was carried on by Lenine and Trotzky. They sent newspapers over into the German trenches, and while the German troops were fra- ternizing so well with the Russian troops. Then they ordered the German troops over to the other front, and the troops said they had had enough, and a revolution broke out in the interior of Ger- many and the Bolsheviks saved 500,000 American boys' lives. The American military authorities said the war would last another year. Mr. Humes. You have been reading Albert Rhys Williams's book? Mr. Keddie. I do not know him. Mr. Humes. You are quoting his figures? Mr. Keddie. I have never met him. Mr. Humes. But you have read his book ? Mr. Keddie. I have read his book. Mr. Humes. And you are adopting his figures and his argument, are you not ? Mr. Keddie. I am not accepting his facts at all. Mr. Humes. But you are adopting his figures exactly. Mr. Keddie. I have never met him at all. Senator Nelson. Have you written a book on this subject? Mr. Keddie. No. Senator Nelson. Have you written any newspaper articles? Mr. Keddie. Yes; but the newspapers would not print them. [Laughter.] Senator Nelson. Have you made any speeches on the subject? Mr. Keddie. No ; I have not gone out to speak on Bolshevism. Senator Nelson. Who pays your expenses? Mr. Keddie. I have not had any payment for working in Russia at all. I am not having any payment. Senator Nelson. You are working at your own expense? All that you have done is at your own expense ? Mr. Keddie. No; I have not had any salary. The Friends have settled for my food and traveling. Senator Nelson. Did anybody connected with the Bolshevik gov- ernment, while you were over there, furnish you with any funds ? Mr. Kjeddte. No, sir. Senator Nelson. Or did you get any food cards from them ? Mr. Keddie.. They helped. It did not make any difference to us whether under the Czar's government or the Czecho-Slovaks or the Bolsheviks ; things went on much the same. Senator Nelson. You had four classes of food cards there? There were those who were actually laborers who were given a full ration, and the others did not get so much? Capitalists would get nothing? Mr. Keddie. There are no capitalists, at all. Senator Nelson. Did you get any food cards at all? 748 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Overman. Wait a minute. You say there are no capi- talists. A man who has got a horse or a white shirt is a capitalist. Mr. Keddie. What do you mean by a capitalist? Senator Nelson. You say there are not any capitalists there. Mr. Keddie. I would say that a capitalist is a man who has some big factory, and his profit is made cooperatively, but he holds the profits privately. In other words, through the money he has in- vested he is living largely on interest. That is what I understand by a capitalist. Senator Nelson. What property do you own? Mr. Keddie. What property do I own? Senator Nelson. Yes; what are you the owner of? Mr. Keddie. Where? Wherebouts do you mean? Senator Nelson. I mean anywhere. What property do you own? Mr. Keddie. I do not know that I have got very much. I have not got very much worth talking about. Senator Nelson. Oh, have you not? Mr. Keddie. No. Senator Nelson. Are you not afraid of losing it when you go over to Eussia? Mr. Keddie. No ; I do not think so. What I want to say is this. If you are a man and you go down in a coal mine and work, or if you go in some factory and work hard, and you get $20 a week or so, I want to know what chance you have of learning to appreciate music and literature and ethics and religion, and how you can under- stand and admire the beauties of nature, and how the lilies of the field grow? Senator Overman. We take care of that in the coal mines. They have reading rooms and libraries and facilities of every kind. You are not posted on the situation here. Do you want everybody to know poetry and to know how to play on the piano? Mr. Keddie. I want everybody to have enough leisure so that they can develop the spark of God that is in them. Senator Overinian. You do not want everybody to be a poet and a scholar? Mr. Keddie. No ; but I want everybody to have the chance to enjoy things. Senator Overman. You want to give them a chance? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Nelson. Do you know that in building up our western country the Government gave our people free lands; that they said to them, " If you will cultivate these lands for five yeai-s and make them your homes, we will give you a quarter section, 160 acres of land, for nothing?" That was a great encouragement. Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Nelson. Now if your Bolshevik government, of which you are a missionary, should come in here Mr. Keddie. 1 am not a missionary of the Bolshevik government. Senator Nelson (continuing). And confiscate all that property and take it away from those people, do you think our people would enjoy that? Mr. Keddie. I am not a missionary for the Bolsheviks, i do not think that the United States people want it. The United States is BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 749 a young country, and there is an opportunity for lands opening up. Senator Nelson. What countries do you think want it, and need it? You think Russia needs it? Mr. Keddie. Yes; old countries, like England Dnd France, require a new social order. Senator Nelson. Something of the Bolshevik kind? Mr. Keddie. No; not of the Bolshevik kind. Senator Nelson. You think that is only good for Eussia? Mr. Keddie. I did not say it was good for Russia, even. I say that to create.a new social order in Russia is a good thing, where you are going to give 90 per cent of the people a chance where they did not have it before. Senator Nelson. And the way to create a new social order is to take away all the incentive for the acquirement of private property ? Mr. Keddie. No, sir. Senator Nelson. And to say to the poor Russian peasant, " You can cultivate this land and till it and work as hard as you are a mind to, but never in God's world can you own a foot of it ! " That is your gospel ? That is your doctrine ? Mr. Keddie (looking at his wrist watch) . I wish a chance to speak. Senator Nelson. That is the Bolshevik doctrine. That is your doctrine? That is socialism. You are a socialist. Oh, take your wrist watch there, and take your 10 minutes. Mr. Keddie. Yes. You know that in Scotland the northern clans used to go out and clean out the other clans whenever the weather was good, and take everything they had. Then, after we got a little more education, they had one king. Then Scotland used to do the same thing to the English ; the Scotch Aveiit over the border ; and then the English went back over the border, and so it went on back and forth. Then they had one king and a union of the crowns. In other words, the point has passed when I can go into your house and take what I want by violence. We are past that stage. But we have not yet passed the stage where if I have a better brain than you, by our present legal machinery I can starve you out or starve other people out by the superior use of my brain ; I can dominate and rule and starve out other people, and do it legally. That is what I want to correct. Senator Nelson. The Bolshevik government has not yet reached that stage? Mr. Keddie. Yes; they Senator Nelson. They do not hesitate to go into private houses and drive people out and occupy them. Mr. Keddie. Yes. I am against that. Senator Nelson. We have evidence before this committee here of men who have seen it. They drove the people out of their houses and took possession and occupied them — the Red Guards. Mr. Keddie. Not at all. Not at all! Senator Nelson. Oh, yes ; they did. Mr. Keddie. Not at all. Senator Overman. We had better take a recess here. Mr. Humes. This is the only witness we have for to-day. Senator. Senator Overman. Very well ; if there is no other witness, go ahead and let us finish with him. 750 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. KJEDDEE. I was going to tell you about the disestablishment of the church. When Lenine disestablished the church, they took over about 400,000,000 acres of land and gave it to the peasants. Senator Nelson. He did not give it to the peasants, but he gave it to the State. Mr. Keddie. Well, the State or the peasants. If I am saying any- thing that is wrong, iust let me finish, please. Senator Nelson. You are misrepresenting it when you say he took it from the church and gave it to the peasants. Mr. Keddie. Yes; he did. Senator Nelson. He did not give it to the peasants. Mr. Keddie. Yes; he did. Senator Nelson. He did not give them title to it. Mr. Keddie. They have title to it as long as they work it. Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Keddie. Well, the Greek Orthodox Church organized a pro- test against the taking over of those 400,000,000 acres of land. I was in Moscow at that particular time. It was a beautiful Sunday morning when they had this procession. The sun was shining per- fectly. Their protest took the form of a procession. The priests and lots of people came out, with all the rich ritual and beauty of the Greek Orthodox Church, the priests clad in their robes and with their miters on their heads, and carrying their icons, with lighted candles in their hands, chanting hymns and prayers, pro- testing against the land of the church being taken away from them. The Bolsheviks organized a reply to them. Their reply took the form of a bill, about this wide and this long [indicating]. It was in the form of a questionnaire. One question was, "Why is it that the Greek Orthodox Church, the followers of the Prince of Peace, are protesting at her lands being taken away from her ? Why is it that the Greek Orthodox Church, the followers of the Prince of Peace, did not protest when 3,000,000 of her sons were shot down on the western front? " Around each of these bills, of course, there were little meetings going on. Now this government that the Bolsheviks have, made up of men like Lenine and Trotzky and Lunacharsky and Radek and Maxim Gorky, they are commonly referred to as being atheists. I do not know whether they are or not, but with regard to their religion, there is more humanity in their religion and their program of Bolshevism — there is more humanity in it — ^than there is in our Christianity. Senator Nelson. Oh; in the Bolshevik government? Mr. Keddie. Yes; and in their system of social order, and their program. Senator Overman. That is what they say also, I suppose, that there is more humanity and more religion in their order than in the reli- gion of Jesus Christ. Senator Nelson. Now it was all right to confiscate the lands of the church, but suppose they had gone on and done as our Government does, after they had taken those lands, said to the peasants, " Here, we will give you these lands if you will settle on them and cultivate them ; we will give you small homes that you can call your own, that you can live on and make them your own property and transmit them BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 751 to your children, if you are industrious." That is the way we do in America, but that is not what they do under the Bolshevik system ; and yet you are in favor of that system. Senator Overman. AnsAver the question which Senator Sterling will ask you, if you can. Mr. Keddie. Yes, sir. Senator Steeling. When the Bolsheviki send the Red Guard around to a prison and take a man out who is in that prison, no formal charge having been made against him at all, he not having a chance to be heard at all, and shoot him, do you think that is an evidence of a spirit of religion higher than the spirit of our Christian religion? Now, answer that question ? Mr. Keddie. No; I think it is not a higher spirit of religion. I agree with you. Senator Steeling. Well, that has been done again and again, has it not? That is quite a common procedure, is it not, and has been for more than a year, now, on the part of the Bolshevik government? Mr. Keddie. I think the only man who can throw a stone at the Bolsheviks Senator Steeling. Now, answer that question. I am asking you whether as a matter of fact that has not been a common procedure ? Mr. Keddie. I say Senator Oveeman. Answer the question. Mr. Keddie. I do not think that is as common as the newspapers make it out to have been. Senator Steeling. You do not think so? Mr. Keddle. No, sir. Senator Sterling. Did you hear the testimony here of men who have been in Russian prisons, and have seen men taken out by the Red Guard to be shot without trial or a chance to be heard ? Mr. Keddie. No ; I did not hear that evidence. Senator Sterling. No. But if it were true, would you regard it as evidence of a spirit better than that of our Christian religion ? Mr. Keddie. No ; certainly not. I could not. You know that per- fectly well. , Senator Sterling. Yes. Mr. Keddie. But what I do say is, there is only one man that can afford to throw a stone at the Bolsheviks, and he is the man who says that all the slaughter that has been going on in Europe is wrong. He is the only man to cast stones at the Bolsheviks. Of course, I agree with you that the Bolsheviks have no right to use force, and I regret it as much as you do. Senator Sterling. You are a conscientious objector, are you not? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Sterling. And you were not in the war because you were a conscientious objector? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Steeling. Your brothers in England and in Scotland were fighting for the freedom and the civilization of the world, were they not, and against German autocracy and militarism ? Mr. Keddie. Yes; but Senator Steeling. You did not sympathize with them at all in that fight, did you ? 762 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Keddie. I did not Senator Sterling. You were a conscientious objector? Mr. Keddie. Excuse me. Senator Steeling. Yes. Mr. Keddie. I did sympathize with them, but I did not agree with them. Senator Steeling. You did not agree with them? Mr. Keddie. Yes. My friends have gone out and been killed, and they did what they thought was right, and I also did what I thought was right. Senator Steelixg. You did not think that the freedom that Great Britain had stood for and had fought for, and the constitutional government she had fought for, was worth protecting against German autocracy, or that the democracy of France was worth protecting against the onslaughts of Prussianism? Mr. Keddie. I think that the German people could have settled the German Government in the same way as the Russian people have done. Senator Steeling. The German people? Mr. Keddie. That they could have overthrown militarism. Senator Steeling. If it had not been for Prussian propaganda in Russia, and if it had not been for the treachery of some of the high authorities in Russia, do you not know as a matter of fact that the Russian army would have stood up and would have helped in this war, and would have gone on and won victories? Mr. Keddie. No; I do not agree, sir. Senator Steeling. You said a while ago that the revolution Mr. Keddie. Evolved. Senator Steeling. Evolved ? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Steeling. Yon think it did evolve? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Sterling. You think it was not precipitated? Mr. Keddie. N"o, sir. Senator Steeling. Do you not think that the Russian army, had it been furnished with supplies and munitions and with arms and guns, would have been an active factor in the war, and it was be- cause whole divisions were sent into action barehanded and without arms, that the revolution spread to the soldiers as it did, at the time it did? Senator Oveeman. Now, answer that. Mr. Keddie. No ; I do not agree. I feel that there is some truth, of course, in the military situation, the Russian troops not being well equipped — that that helped them to lose some of their morale. Senator Ovee^man. When you went over to Russia from this coun- try in 191(5 ^ . Mr. KeddiI:. Ves. Senator 0^'erman (continuing). You were a conscientious ob- jector ? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Overman. You were not in sympathy with your own Gov- ernment in this fight and in going into this war ; is that true ? Mr. Keddie. Yes. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 753 Senator Overman. Then you went over there, and you have been preaching as a conscientious objector, and you vrere sent there to preach these doctrines ? Mr. KJEDDiE. No; I did not preach anything. I simply worked; because we 'were not allowed to say anything at all. When Friends go over either to France or Eussia they take in hand not to discuss questions of peace or war, or to go out of their way to take any occa- sion or to say anything at all. We have never done so. We had no political work. Mr. Humes. In private discussions you discussed these matters with people you came in contact with? Mr. Keddie. We talked with people. Mr. Humes. You communicated your views in private conversa- tions with people you came in contact with ? Mr. Keddie. Of course, when you talk with people, one is liable to show their point of view ; but we did not, as I say, go out and talk politics, at all. Senator Overman. Your point of view was against the interests of your government at that time? Mr. Keddie. As far as the question of war was concerned. Senator Overman. In that you would not fight; but you (would go out and talk against the war? Mr. Keddie. No; I went there to help these people. Senator Overman. To help them to get a new revolution? Mr. Keddie. No, to help the Russian refugees. I knew something of the language, and that is how I went. Senator Sterling. You were investigated after you were thrown into prison, there? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Sterling. Weie you visited in prison by some inspector or govermnent officials? Mr. Keddie. No; it happened like this, that the commandant, as they called it in Russia, the officer in charge of the prison, was not there, he was called away, I do not know whether to battle or some front, but he was not there, and there was a lady in charge, and she was a young Jewish lady, and we told her we were going up to the orphanage. Senator Sterling. You were going where? Mr. Keddie. To our orphanage, across the bridge, and we ex- plained the work we were doing there — we were well known to the local people; they knew we were there for service, and we had no axe to grind ; we took neither the side of the Czecho- Slovaks nor the Bolsheviks nor of the social revolutionists, and we did simply our work, which was principally hospital work, and country industries — and when I explained this to this lady, after a good deal of talk and trouble they allowed us out. I gave her the number of the house where we stayed. Senator Sterling. By what route, did you come away from Russia ? Mr. Keddie. Across Siberia. Senator Sterling. To Vladivostok. Mr. Keddie. Yes, sir. Senator 'Sterling. Where did you land in this country, first? 85723—19 48 754 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Keddie. At Seattle. Senator Sterling. Who paid your transportation? Mr. Keddie. The Society of Friends. Senator Sterling. They paid your transportation here? Mr. Keddie. Yea. I am going over to England in a week or so. Senator Overman. Let me ask you this question. You would not fight because you are a conscientious objector? You did leave your country and go to Russia and do charitable or missionary work, and you say now you hope there will be a revolution in Great Britain. Would you think as a conscientious objector that you ought to take part in that revolution? Mr. Keddie. Revolution does not mean war, at all. It is just simply a change of idea. Revolution does not mean war. When you put this question you have got it behind your mind that revolu- tion means war. Senator Overman. Not at all ; the result of criticisms. Mr. Keddie. I am against war all the time, against the use of violence. What I had reference to is just what you can read in the newspapers. There seems to be a million and a half men who are striking, three of the unions, railroad men, miners, and transport workers, which have stood together, and Lloyd George on that account has formed an industrial parliament in which they are rep- resented. Senator Sterling. You are a socialist, are you not? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Sterling. And a pacifist? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Sterling. And a conscientious objector? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Overman. Then you would welcome a resolution in Eng- land to overturn that Government? Mr. Keddie. Yes ; I would welcome a change which would create a new and better social order and give everybo'dy a fair chance to live and give the spark of God that is in them a chance to develop. Senator Overman. And you would welcome a revolution over there that would carry out the ideas of the Bolsheviki ? Mr. Keddie. That would carry out better social ideals. Do not put those words in my mouth. I did not say them. I say I stand for a system that will create a better social order. Senator Overman. That is Bolshevism? Mr. Keddie. It is not what you understand by Bolshevism. Senator Overman. What you understand? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Overman. Bolshevism as you understand it. Mr. Keddie. The ideal Bolshevism ; yes. Senator Overman. And you would welcome a revolution in Eng- land to get that kind of government ? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Overman. Stand aside, unless you have something more to say. I am glad to hear anything you have to say voluntarily. Mr. Keddie. Well, I would just like to say a little more about the situation in Siberia, if I may; that the part over there played by the allied troops is not satisfactory from any point of view. I do BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 755 think that the allied troops should be withdrawn because you are causing dissatisfaction among the troops that are there, because they are saying, as I heard some say, " We signed on to fight Germany. We did not sign to fight the Bolsheviki." Senator Overman. Americans said that? Mr. Keddie. No ; they were British that said that. I do not know that the situation there — the part played by the Japanese is a very bad one indeed. For instance, we have a Cossack Ataman at Khab- arovsk, which town lies to the north of Vladivostok. There the Cos- sack Ataman Kalmikoff reigns like a regular Robin Hood. Senator Overman. I do not think we should allow you to state anything about any other government. That is not proper here. You can speak of our Government. Mr. Keddie. I am speaking of the point of fact that trouble lies there. This Kalmikoff is a Cossack Ataman who fought the Bol- sheviki. And in Chita also there is a Cossack Ataman, Semyonov, who has also fought the Bolsheviki ; and both these generals refuse to recognize Kolchak. I have been told by people who have been up at Habarovsk, who are in the American Government, in the War Trade Board in Vladivostok, that the Japanese are financing these Cossacks and keeping the trouble going. Now, the same people say the Japanese are there because the allies are there. The Japanese are playing a very sinister role. The Japanese in Japan are very nice people, but only by withdrawing the allied troops will you get the Japanese troops out of Siberia. That is what I advocate, that we accelerate our social evolution and so prevent a chaotic revolution. Accelerate the social evolution. I am against unscientific revolution. If the hearts of the masses are not changed by love there will be no real improvement. I do urge that the allied troops be withdrawn out of Eussia and Siberia. Senator Sterling. While you are on that question : You think it was a mistake on the part of the allies and Japan to send a force to protect the stores at Vladivostok from being captured by the Bolshe- vists and the Germans together, do you ? Mr. Keddie. If they went Senator Sterijng. Just answer the question. Do you think it was a mistake ? Mr. Keddie. I am going to ask if they went Senator Overman. Answer yes or no, and then explain. Mr. Keddie. They should have taken the stores away when they went there. They have had plenty of time and could have done so. Senator Sterling. Our country and the allies were at war with Germany at the time ? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Sterling. At the time the troops were sent there? Mr. Keddie. Yes, Senator; but since the armistice Senator Sterling. Were they not justified in sending a force there to Vladivostok to protect the suplies and the munitions of war that had been landed there for the purpose of fighting Germany in Russia ? Mr. Keddie. Why, I say they had plenty of time to take them away. Senator Sterling. Were they justified in sending forces there to protect those supplies? 756 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Keddie. I am against sending troops anywhere and every- where. Senator Steeling. You are? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Sterling. Do j^ou think the allies were justified in sending a force up to the northern coast, to Archangel and to the Murmansk coast, in order to prevent the establishment of a German submarine base there and to guard that coast from German invasion, 'or were they wholly im justified in doing that? Mr. Keddie. I am not in charge of the allied military policy. You should ask the gentleman who is in charge. Senator Steeling. But you, I suppose, would be opposed to it be- cause you are apposed to force anyway ? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Steeling. And you are opposed to these nations protecting their own interests against Germany with whom they were at war at the time, and against the landing of any forces for that purpose ? Mr. Keddie. I tell you that I believe that the working people of the world have no reason to go out and kill each other. Senator Oveeman. That is not answering his question. Mr. Htjmes. Mr. Keddie, you were opposed to the Eussian pi-ovi- sional go\'ernment and to the Bolshevik government reorganizing and organizing a military force for the purpose of further resisting the German aggressions or carrying on the war against Germany, were you not? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Mr. HuJiES. And in your private conversations over in Eussia you did not hesitate to express your beliefs, did you ? Mr. Keddie. Yes; I have tried not to hide my ideals in any way. What I believed to be true I said. Mr. Hu3iEs. You did not try to hide them ? Mr. Keddie. No. Mr. Humes. In other words you left j'our fellow-citizens and neighbors who had gone to the front to fight with Germany, and as a conscientious objector left there and went to Eussia, and while you were in Eussia you tried to aid Mr. Keddie. Not at all. I did not. That is unfair. It is untrue. Mr. Humes. I will modify it. While in Eussia you frequently ex- pressed the belief and conveyed the idea — you just got through say- ing that you did not conceal Mr. Keddie. That doe,s not mean that. I freely expressed every- thing — — ■ Mr. Humes. You did not hesitate to say to the Eussian people when you met them in private conversation that the war ought to stop, and by so doing you sacrificed possibly the lives and the mili- tary success of the soldiers of this country and your own neighbors and your own fellow citizens; and then you came to the United States to further advocate from the public platform and in speeches you have advocated the policy of that government in Eussia that you encouraged while you were in Eussia to withdraw from military operations against Germany. Mr. Keddie. I tell you what I have advocated Mr. HusfES. Is that not a fact? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 757 Mr. Keddie. I have advocated Mr. Humes. Just answer the question. Mr. Keddie. I have advocated the gospel of the Prince of Peace. That is what I have advocated. Mr. Humes. Answer the question. Senator Overman. Answer the question. Mr. Keddie. I have answered the question. Mr. Humes. Is the statement I have made not correct '. Mr. Keddie. No. Mr. Humes. Wherein is it wrong? What did I indicate in that statement that is not correct? Mr. Keddie. You intended to convey that I went about talking, and tried to propagate my id,eas in Russia. I tell you that before we went there we took in hand not to engage in any political organiza- tion or propagate ideas publicly, or anything like that at all. Senator Overman. He did not ask you about the organization. He said individually. And you have already said that you talked your own sentiments freely. Mr. Keddie. I did not talk my own sentiments freely. Mr. Humes. You just got through saying a moment ago that you did not hide your views and that you did not hesitate to express your own views to anyone in private conversation that you came in con- tact with. Is that true ? Mr. Keddie. That means that I did not hide my views. Mr. Humes. And you told other people what your views were? Mr. Keddie. I did not go about for the purpose of spreading my ideas. Mr. Humes. You did tell a few people? Mr. Keddie. A few people. Mr. Humes. And you lent as much influence Mr. Keddie. No. Mr. Humes. To the withdrawal of the Russian Government from military affairs as you felt you dared to, under the terms under which your organization had gone to Russia when you got your passports, did you not? Mr. Keddie. You are not putting it in the correct waj^ at all. You are trying to convey a wrong and false impression. Mr. Humes. I do not want to convey any false impression. I want to find out what you did do. You did everything to convey* your views and your notions to the people in Russia that you could without openly violating the promise you had given at the time you secured your passports? Mr. Keddie. Yes; that is so. Mr. Humes. And you went just as far as you could? Mr. Keddie. I did not go far at all. I did not go "just as far" or anything of the kind. I simply went about my work and did what I thought was correct. Mr. Humes. And any influence that you had at all in Russia as affecting the military course of the Bolshevik government was used to prevent a further continuance of Russia in the war, to the detri- ment of your own country, to the detriment of your own fellow citizens and your own neighbors who were in the "English military forces. 758 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Keddie. That is not so. Senator Overman. Did you tell any of those soldiers that you were opposed to war? Mr. Keddie. Any of those who were associated with us? Senator Oterjian. Did you tell any of the soldiers engaged on the lines fighting the Germans, in conversation or otherwise, that you were opposed to war? Mr. Keddie. No. Senator 0^'ermax. Did you go out among the soldiers and spread it? Mr. Keddie. No. Senator Overman. Not out on the lines? Mr. Keddie. No; never at the Russian western front. Senator Overman. You did not tell them that in the interior, away from the front? Mr. Keddie. Tell them what? Senator Overman. What did you tell them about war — about being opposed to war? Mr. Keddie. Did not tell them anything. We simply did our work, and ran those hospitals. Senator Overman. You have already said that you freely dis- cussed those matters when people talked with you about it. Mr. Keddie. Certainly. One might talk to one or two. You, Senatof, are trying to create an impression that is not true. Senator Nelson. You have stated that you are opposed to revolu- tion by force? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Nelson. Why do you favor this Bolshevik revolution in Eussia ? Mr. Keddie. I am against the use of force. Senator Nelson. I thought you were preaching justification; that they should be let alone. Mr. Keddie. No. Senator Nelson. Your idea is that we should keep our hands off and let that revolution that is going on by means of the Red Guard go on — that is what you said — and keep our hands off ; that the allies should withdraw and give them their own sweet will. Is not that your contention? Mr. Kj:ddie. What I do say is this, that the allies ought to be withdrawn for the benefit of the allies and of Russia. Senator Nelson. So that the Red Guard could go on freely. Is not that the effect of it? Senator Overman. I would like to know something about your history before you entered this work. What was your business? Mr. Keddie. I was a tea taster. I was in a Quaker firm. Senator Overman. Whereabouts? Mr. Keddie. In London. Senator Overman. How long did you live in London? Mr. Keddie. About three years. Senator Overman. What did you do before you went to London? Mr. Keddie. I was in the tea business. Senator Overman. Whereabouts? Mr. Keddie. In Edinburgh. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 759 Senator Overman. How long have you been a tea taster? Mr. Keddie. That is the only business that I have been an expert of. Senator Overman. Were you raised in Scotland? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Overman. Whereabouts? Mr. Keddie. Edinburgh. Senator Overman. Raised in Edinburgh? Mr. Keddie. Yes. There is one point that we have not talked about; that is the co- operative movement in Russia. That is the most hopeful thing in Russia. There are something like 50,000 cooperative societies. Senator Nelson. That was in existence under the Czar's govern- ment? Mr. Keddie. It was looked upon as a hotbed of revolution under the Czar's government. Senator Nelson. They had the cooperative system before that. Mr. Keddie. It was started in 1865. Senator Nelson. It was going on in Russia before the revolution- ary government ? Mr. Keddie. But it only came forward since the revolution. Mr. Humes. And the leaders of the cooperative movement in Rus- sia are opposed to Bolshevism, are they not ? Mr. Keddie. Some are and some are not. Mr. Humes. When did you become a Quaker? Mr. Keddee. I am not a Quaker. I never joined the society, as I thought it was not right to join the society after the war was on. Mr. Humes. When did you come into sympathy with the Quaker Church, or the Friends' Society ? Mr. Keddie. I worked in a Quaker firm, and the ideals I held I had held long before the war. Senator Nelson. I supposed you were a conscientious objector be- cause you were a Quaker? Mr. Keddie. I held Quaker ideals, but I am not a born Quaker, Mr. Humes. You are a conscientious obj.ector not because of re- ligious faith ? Mr. Keddie. Yes ; because of religious faith. Mr. Humes. Because of your socialistic ideas ? Mr. Keddie. Do not say that. It was because of my religious faith. You know perfectly that everything I have said this afternoon is on religious grounds. Senator Overman. Tell us on what religious grounds you are. Do not get excited. Mr. Keddie. I am not excited. Senator Overman. If you want to be emphatic you have a right. What is the religion that makes you a conscientious objector ? Mr. Keddie. The religion of the Prince of Peace. I worship the religion of the Prince of Peace, who tells us not to go out and fight. Senator Nelson. But you say the Bolshevik religion is better than the Christian religion. You said that a little while ago, that it was better than the Christian religion. Mr. Keddie. No ; I did not. I did not say that. What I did say was that there was more humanity over there in the system they were trying to evolve than there is in Christianity. That is what I said. 760 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. That does not mean ideal Christianity. I mean Christianit_v as it is to-day in the Christian churches. Senator Overjian. Most of our boys who went over there did believe in the doctrine of Jesus Christ, and they did not have any conscientious objection to fighting for their country. Mr. Keddib. No. - Senator Overman. What peculiar part of this religion keeps you from fighting with your brothers? We interpret various things differently. Mr. Keddie. I yield to no one in my admiration for those who fight if they believe in it. But I wish the same respect for my own opinions. Mr. Humes. If this religious belief is so all-controlling, how does it come that you have never aifiliated with the denomination that be- lieves in those things ? Mr. Keddie. I had been brought up a member of the Church of Scotland. Mr. Humes. And yet you became affiliated with the Society of Friends after the declaration of war and proclaimed yourself a con- scientious objector. Mr. Keddie. No; I tell you I was working with a Quaker firm before the war started. Mr. Humes. You were never sufficiently convinced until after the war broke out ? Mr. Keddie. I have not joined the society yet. Please make that point plain. Mr. Humes. Well, then, you are not because of membership in any organjization a conscientious objector? Mr. Keddie. It is because I have a religious concern. Mr. Humes. You are not a member of any religious faith the tenets of which are opposed to war ? Mr. Keddie. Yes, I am ; the Christian faith. Mr. Humes. Will you show any denomination or church, any re- ligious denomination . Mr. Keddie. I am not talking about the church; I am talking about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Mr. Humes. That is your viewpoint. Mr. Keddie. That is all I can speak from. Mr. Humes. The church of which you are a member does not Senator Nelson. The Church of (Scotland is Presbyterian. Mr. Humes. The Church of Scotland does not have as one of its tenets opposition to war? Mr. Keddie. Yes, it has. Senator Nelson. No; you are mistaken. The church does not have it. Mr. Humes. I would like to see that. Mr. Keddie. Give me a New Testament. Senator Nelson. Let me set you right. The Church of Scotland is not opposed to war, but there was a branch of seceders, who called themselves Covenanters, who are opposed to war. You must either be a Covenanter or belong to the Society of Friends. You are not a real Presbyterian. They are a fighting people. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 761 Senator Overman. I can not understand how you got out of going over. You state you are not affiliated with the Friends. What state- ment did you make when you asked to be released ? Mr. Keddie. I simply argued my case out before the tribunal. Senator Steeling. Did you say you were a member of the Society of Friends? Mr. Keddie. There are members of the society who are in France. Senator Steeling. Did you say that you were a member of a re- hgious organization? Mr. Keddie. I stated that I was a member of the Church of Scot- land. Senator Sterling. Did you state that the church was opposed to war and therefore you were? Mr. Keddie. Yes; we had the question up for the best part of an hour. Senator Steeling. Do you know the creed of the church ? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Steeling. Do you know whether or not there is a state- ment in there that they are opposed to war? Mr. Keddie. They are brought up to worship the Prince of Peace. Senator Steeling. But is there anything in the creed against war, or prohibiting it ? Mr. Keddie. Yes; the Christian Gospel. Senator Sterling. Is that a part of the written creed of the church ? Mr. Keddie. It is supposed to be. Senator Sterling. It is supposed to be ? Mr. Keddie. Yes. Senator Steeling. You have not answered my question. You say you know the creed, but you are not able to state that that is a part of the written formal creed of the Church of Scotland, of the Pres- byterian Church, and you must know that it is not. You are deriving all your notions from something you believe is to be found in the Bible. Mr. Keddie. That is true. Senator Sterling. You are not deriving it from the creed — the formal creed — of the church of which you say you are a member. It does not have any such proposition at all? Mr. Keddie. So you argue from that that you think the Presby- terian Church does not believe in the Christian Gospel ? Senator Steeling. No; I was not arguing, I was simply saying that the Presbyterian Church in its creed does not oppose war. Mr. Humes. We are convinced that you do not know what the Presbyterian Church does represent. Mr. Keddie. Do I understand you to mean that I do not under- stand what Christianity is? Senator Nelson. Do you not know that the bulk of the Scotch are Presbyterians, and that they have gone by the hundreds of thousands into the British Army and camps ? Mr. Keddie. Yes; but a lot of them are conscientious objectors. Senator Nelson. You are the only black sheep among tbem ? Mr. Keddie. It is possible. 762 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. Let me ask you another question. It was the doctrine of my ancestors a thousand years ago or so that the man who died in battle went straight to Valhalla or Heaven. Do you not believe that our soldiers, American and English soldiers, who fought and died in this great war, went straight to Valhalla? Mr. KIDDIE. Yes ; I think they have just as good a chance as any- body ; that is, if they acted according to what they believe. Senator Nelson. Do you not think they would have a better chance to go to Valhalla than you ? Mx. Keddie. I do not know about it. (Thereupon, at 2.20 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee adjourned until to-morrow, Thursday, March 6, 1919, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.) BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. THtTRSDAY, MARCH 6, 1919. United States Senate, Subcommittee oe the Committee on the Judiciaet, Washington, I). C . The subcommittee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., in room 226, Senate Office Building, Seiiator Lee S. Overman presiding. ' Present: Senators Overman (chairman), Nelson, and Sterling. Senator Overman. The committee will come to order. Call your first witness. Mr. Humes. Col. Robins. TESTIMONY OF ME. EAYMOND ROBINS. (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) Mr. Humes. Where do you reside? Mr. EoBiNS. Chicago : 1437 Ohio Street. Mr. Humes. What is your business ? Mr. EoBiNS. Social worker. Mr. Humes. What was your connection with the American Red Cross? Mr. Robins. I went to Russia as one of the 13 majors in the service of the Red Cross, was in that capacity for some three months, and then for some six months was the commander of the American Eed Cross mission in Russia. Mr. Humes. Will you state the period of time during which you were in Russia ? Mr. Robins. From July, 1917, until the 1st of June, 1918. Mr. Humes. That was practically a year, then ? Mr. Robins. Something like that. Mr. Humes. Practically a year. Mr. Robins. Eleven months. Mr. Humes. Yes. During the time that you were in Russia, what parts of Russia did you visit, and how much time, approximately, did you spend in the various parts of Russia ? Mr. Robins. I was in Siberia twice, on the whole I suppose three weeks in two different periods ; in southern Russia about a week ; in Petrograd some six or seven months ; in Moscow some three months, roughly, and in Vologda, several visits of a week at a time. Senator Overman. I did not understand; when, did you leave Russia? Mr. Robins. I left Russia the 1st of June, 1918, Senator. Mr. Humes. Then you arrived in Russia after the March revolu- tion? 763 764 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. RoBix.s. Yes. sir. Mr. Humes. You arrived there in June or the 1st of July follow- ing the March reyolution ^ Mr. EoBiNs. Yes ; in July following the March revolution. Mr. Humes. And what part of Russia were you in during the period from your arrival up to the Xovcmber revolution? Mr. Robins. I was in Siberia part of that time, and in southern Russia part of that time, but by far the larger portion of the time in Petrograd. Mr. HuJiEs. And where were you at the time of and during the Xovember revolution ? Mr. Robins. In Petrograd and its environs. Mr. Humes. Now, Colonel, will you state to the committee in yoiu- own way just what the internal conditions were in Russia as you saw them from the time of your arrival, dividing it into periods ; first up to the time of the Bolsheviki revolution in November, and then from that time on up to the time of your departure? Mr. Robins. With the consent of the committee and yourself, Major, I would like to just make, as is suggested by the question, a statement chronologically and in relation to the subject matter, if I jnight make this first preliminary statement, without interruption except where it seems wise, on this theory, that I may save your time, because I may answer a great many of the questions as I go through : and then afterwards, if I might be subjected to as careful a cross- examination as 3'ou can make. Senator Overman. We do not propose to cross-examine you. We just want the truth. Mr. Robins. Sometimes that method brings out the truth. Senator, better than any other. Senator Overman. You go ahead with your statement, and we will not interrupt you. Mr. Robins. Reaching Russia as a member of the Red Cross mis- sion, I was assigned to the question of food supply and refugees — war refugees — as my particular task. In the course of this first serv- ice, my first -weeks in Russia, work in Siberia and work in southern Russia, in the grain districts of the Ukraine, I developed a convic- tion, which I communicated to m}' superiors, that there was ample food in Russia to feed the people, and that the whole question was one of assembling and distribution from centers of surplus to centers of deficit; that that task was greatly interfered with by the failure of the general economic and transportation system in Russia to function under revolutionary control. The Minister-President Kerensky hu<] removed a few of the chief officials of the old autocratic bureaucracy, but had left the bureaucracy practically intact, dealing with the rail- roads and public functions generally. This old group never looked happily upon the revolution; the group that you are familiar with, Senator, under the classification of " penniless plutes ; " the men who work with the rich and sympathize with the rich without knowing quite why, and feel that that is the order that ought to go on. They were not in sympathy with the revolution, and engaged in practices, sabotage, misplacing orders; not leaving their tasks, but just not functioning. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 765 In these first weeks I came upon the fact that the provisional government had not reached down its roots into the life of Russia as a new social control or political binder. It was a sort of paper and consent affair superimposed on top, supported by the bayonets in Petrograd and Moscow and some other places, more or less loyally. I met the facts of this situation, having my pockets full of Kerensky credentials, seeking to deal with the particular matters in my depart- ment of work, going to little local village folk and town situations, asking to get these orders across, and having them laugh at the Keren- sky credentials and say, " See the chairman of the soviet." I at that time really did not know what the soviet was. I had heard the word but did not know anything about it. I said, "What is the soviet ? " They said, " It is the workmen s, soldiers', and peasants' deputies." I said, " That is a revolutionarj^ organization. I want the civil organization, the Duma, the zemtsvos, volosts — the regular civil power." They said, " That does not amount to anything. You had better see the chairman of the soviet." In everj' instance, Senator, when I saw the leader of the local soviet and he agreed to do what I wanted done — not because of the Kerenslcy orders but because of his idea that it ought to be done — I got done what I sought to have done. If it was a train that I wanted, I got the train. If it was the six wagons to carry the grain from the village to the station, I got the six wagons. I was educated in the consciousness of the soviet by the actual delivery of results in contradistinction to the provisional government au- thorities. AVhen I first met the failure of my credentials to get results, like any person accustomed to getting results I sought to find out where power was in the existing political and social system that was out- doors in Russia. In that inquiry I came at every point upon the remains of what had been a valid social control. Whether you liked it or not, the old autocracy had delivered the goods. The Czar, as head of the church and of the state, head of the autocratic system, head of the secret police, head of the Black Hundred, head of the Cos- sack Guard, had carried by mystical authority on the one hand and by a very definite Cossack whip and sword on the other hand a very real sanction in Russia. When the revolution went over it it destroyed that sanction absolutely. It had only a small number implicated in it, merely a very small group exercising control from the center, and it just simply was utterly destroyed. Russia had the binder of the national life dissolved. Russia was just simply lying outdoors, every group beginning to do that which was right in its own eyes, and this Duma government or revolt government — revolutionary legislative government — and the Kerensky government, the provisional govern- ment, neither had gotten down into the provinces and into the vil- lages. But, side bj' side with the old, dead institutions, side by side with the effort to make the provisional government function, there was growing up in Russian life the soviet, a definite revolutionarj' social control binding together a very large proportion of the people of Russia, as it seemed to me — the workmen and peasants and soldiers. That is the new social control. I being interested, because I had to work with it, to find out what its nature was, how long in the nature of things I could expect it to endure, what might be expected of its cooperation, both in the actual service of the Russian people and in 766 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. the service of the allied cause, which was, of course, always in the back of our thoughts, as it should have been, I tried to find out why it was there; and if I know the facts, it was there for two reasons: First, because of the workmen's and soldiers' and peasants' revolution- ary organizations in cities, an entirely modern thing, dating back to 1905 for its origin — to the revolution of that period — Trotsky having been chairman of the soviet of Petrograd in 1905, forming one branch of the organization of the soviet, the other branch going back into the oldest Slavic history of group control, the old village mir, an insti- tution of the village rural communities growing up in the first in- stance around the communal land in which the men and women of the villages met. Senator Oveejian. Did that grow up from the time of the freedom of the serfs'? Mr. EoBiNs. Before that period, sir. It goes back in some of its ramifications nearly 200 years, and it was a sort of .town meeting, both broader and narrower than our New England town meeting ; bi-oader in the fact that men and women participated with equal power and votes, narrower in the sense that it had a very restricted jurisdiction, that it was held always to local control. They did not allow delegates from one mir to another mir to grow up into provincial or wider relationships, lest it be an instrumentality of revolution. The au- tocracy sat vigorously upon it and restrained its local activities to matters of communal land, to matters of roads, and matters of sani- tation, and the simple sort of local affairs. But there it was. The Russians had been accustomed to meet twice a year or of tener in this village mir to discuss questions. As soon as the weight of the au- tocracy was removed from above the village mir grew up overnight into district, provincial, and finally into all-Russian size. Senator Nelson. Was not a part of the convention of the mir the assigning of lands to the peasants for cultivation ? Mr. Robins. Yes; communal lands. Senator Nelson. Most of the lands were held as the property of the mir? Mr. EoBiNS. No ; only a small portion of the land was so held. Senator Nelson. I mean what the mirs had. Mr. Robins. Yes ; always communal land, and it was always insuf- ficient actually for the group of peasant villagers to live from, and they had to rent or work on landlord estates to supplement the product of the comnnmal land for their own livelihood. I found this soviet power having just two centers of origin, the city revolu- tionary group and the old village peasant group, combining, and ench assuming as it were the term of soviet, until it was practically the new foi'm of social control in re^'olutionary Russia. Senator (h-EKMAN. What is the meaning of " soviet " i Mr. Robins. It is the Russian word for council — the local council, the people's council. Returning to Petrograd and reporting upon the conditions, I ignoiantly suj^posecl that we could Mupplement the inefficient power of Kerensky's provisional government— the civil power — ^by an ap- ]ieal to the military forces, and realizing that the assembling and distribution of food was fundamental to the preservation of the army situation, it was quite right to use whatever power was neces- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 767 sary. In a conference in which Savinkov, minister of war, Tchernoff, minister of agriculture, Kekrossoflf, minister of finance, Minister- President Kerensky, and Commander in Chief Korniloff, commander of the force at the front, participated, it was agreed that they would appoint a food commissioner with power. Senator Steeling. That is all under the Kerensky government? Mr. EoBiNS. Yes; and some time in the month of August, 1917, this commissioner was to have been Batolin, an able and competent peasant banker, a grain buyer, a sort of embryo Armour, a man who had a fleet of ships on the Volga, some 800 agencies scattered through- out the grain regions of Siberia and the Ukraine, several banks, and an effective organization. He was competent to aid very greatly in the assembling and distribution of food, and he was willing to put his organization at the service of the government, as in our own country private organizations have been ready to serve the Govern- ment in time of war. It was further agreed that one of the members of the American Eed Cross mission was to become an assistant com- missioner of food with Batolin; that we were to make an appeal to Commissioner Hoover, as the food commissioner of the allies, and we were to get an assignment of certain tonnage from the allied tonnage control, so that we could get over milk and certain things necessary for Eussia that could not be obtained in Russia nor in any of the environing lands, such as Sweden, Norway, and Denmark; that we were to then issue a proclamation to the Eussian people asking, for thrift and cooperation, guaranteeing them that the food problem would be met in this competent fashion; that we would master the situation, and fight for revolutionary Eussia and the other free nations as against German military autocracy. That was agreed upon. The appointment of Batolin was delayed from day to day, and finally Kerensky said, " I will not make the appointment until after the conference at Moscow," which had been fixed some time previously, the all-Eussian conference, the only one all-Eussian con- ference in his regime. It was called for the latter part of August in Moscow. He said, " When we have finished with that conference the provisional government will be greatly strengthened, and we will then make the appointment and proceed with the task." Naturally I was eager to go ahead, because immediate action was necessary in the food situation in Eussia. I went to Moscow. The Moscow con- ference presented a picture of the general situation in Eussia, in a wav. Here were 1,500 delegates -representing all the different groups in Russia, of the loourgeoisie, as they call it, of the business men, of the landlords, of the masters of industry, the peasants, the Cossacks, the army, the navy, the banker group, the barons, everything except the autocracy. I mean the very narrow czarist group and the grand dukes. All others were represented. You heard all kinds of voices speaking conflicting counsel, but one group in that convention in common with a note that we had heard all over Eussia, was speak- ing coherently, knowing what it wanted, and how it intended to get it. There were 300 delegates out of the 1,500, in the center of the main floor in the great assembly, workmen's and soldiers' and peas- ants' delegates from the Soviets of Eussia. They knew what they wanted. They had a coherent note. They were aiming to take the 768 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. land and give it to the working peasants, they were going to or- ganize workmen's control of factories, and they were going to carry out the formulas of revolutionary, socialistic Russia, in which they had been educated for 40 or 50 years. In this conference, on the last day of the conference, a distinct break took place between Korniloff, commander in chief of the armies at the front, and Kerensky. Senator Oveemax. Was Korniloff a Cossack? Mr. Robins. Yes; a Cossack general. The break was between him and Minister-President Kerensky. It developed at the close of this last day with the passage of bitter words between certain Cos- sack officers and Kerensky, and a clash in the convention that went almost to the point of riot, showing bitter antagonism between the two groups; between the 7 per cent and the 93 per cent; between the workmen and peasants at the bottom, and the old order and power in Russia. It has been said of Korniloff that he was a reactionary, wanting to reestablish the czarist regime. My own judgment runs to the contrary, and it is only worth the fact that I thought I knew him. Senator Steeling. In this controversy at the conference, the Kerensky gi'oup represented the soldiers and workmen? Mr. Robins. In the main, yes ; that would be the general cleavage. Korniloff was, in my judgment, an honest, patriotic Cossack gen- eral, a man of small abilities and large ambitions, a man who was cursed, as nearly every military man in Russia was cursed during the entire period, with the phantasm of Napoleon — ^lie was going to be the Napoleon of the Russian situation. As soon as any military man got that into his head, then everybody else who had authority any- where was in danger of preventing his manifest destiny, of prevent- ing him from arriving; and the react ionarj^ interest in that conven- tion and outside of it surrounded Korniloff with the idea that he was going to be the master of the Russian situation, that he could bring order and discipline out of the chaos in Russia, and that he Was called to this task; never once saying to Korniloff that they shoul(i establish the old order, but they intending that he should arrive at that end, using him to that result. When we got back to Petrograd Kerensliy had not been strengthened by the conference in Moscow. In fact, he had been Aveakened. Senator Nelson. You skipped a link. What was the outcome of that gathering at Moscow? Mr. Robins. Just resolutions. There was not much outcome of any real moment, except to reveal more of the confused counsel that there was in Russia. When we got back to Petrograd Kerensky de- layed the appointment of Batolin some more days for one excuse and another, until we were startled bj- the Korniloff adventure. That wa.s the advance of Korniloff' on Petrograd ; Korniloff issuing a proclama- tion from headquarters of the general staff at the front, denouncing Kerensky, denouncing the provisional government, making the claim of being ready to establish discipline and order, and going forward on Petrograd with his troops. He was met at once by a counter proclamation of Kerensky ; and then Kerensky, in my judgment, had no more to do with the situation, of any real influence, than a child. It has been charged that Kerensky prevented Korniloff making a suc- cessful move to reestablish law and order in Russia in the September Korniloff adventure. My judgment is that that is childishness. The BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA, 769 real fact is this, if I know it. As soon as the advance of Korniloff began, it was from Smolny, the headquarters of the Petrograd soviet, the headquarters of the all-Eussian soviet, where its executive com- mittee was in session, and not from the Winter Palace where Ker- ensky and the Kerensky government headquarters was, that the or- ders went out to Kronstadt to mobilize the Bolshevist sailors of the soviet fleet. They were brought down to Petrograd and bivouaced on the field of Mars. By orders from Smolny they moved the cadet guards that were about the Winter Palace and put the Bolshevik sailors in their places, making of Kerensky a virtual prisoner during the four days of the Korniloff fiasco. It was from Smolny and not from the Winter Palace that the orders went out that surrounded the Hotel Astoria with Bolshevist troops who raided that hotel and arrested some 40-odd generals, alleged to be generals of the old regime; that confiscated the so-called headquarters of the counter revolution and their papers in the Astoria Hotel, and ordered the digging of trenches around the environs of Petrograd, the setting up of machine guns, and the putting of cannon on the big buildings, to greet Korniloff, to save the revolution from reaction ; as was the proclamation that mobilized the Eed Guard in the great factory dis- tricts of the Viborg, drilling and training them to meet this advance ; and then no particle of that force was exercised, because the rise of the Soviets as a culture did the job without any force. " All power to the Soviets." " Comrades will not fight against the revolution." This was the power that defeated Korniloff. They came to us and urged that the American Eed Cross should participate in the Korni- loff adventure. Senator Overman. Only as a display of force, I suppose ? Mr. Robins. Yes, and the commanding officer of that mission at that time said that we would not have anything to do with this adven- ture; that it was not calculated to reach the end that they were seeking. In discussion at the time, it was suggested — a thing that I would like to have the committee and those interested consider — ^that there was a conflict between the indoor, formal diplomatic and mili- tary mind, the mind of the tea tables and the boulevards, as distin- guished from the outdoor, original, extraordinary facts in Russia, and if you want to get the big facts, the whole story — and it is really worth it — the most intelligent and complete understanding, you will find the conflict in testimony of sincere and honest persons, equally sincere and equally honest, determined largely by whether they got their window from the 7 per cent, whether their ears were open to the boulevards and the tea tables, to the former group that had been masters of the situation under the old regime, or whether they got their window from this outside, seething, extraordinary revolution- ary Russia, which represented about 93 per cent of the people. You will find the conflict of mind and opinion running constantly between those two factors. The 7 per cent said that Korniloff would advance with 2,000,000 Cossack soldiers ; that he would advance sup- ported by the entire bourgeoisie, supported by the chevaliers of St. George, the Army and Navy League, the allied embassies and mis- sions, and that he was going to reestablish order. It was all right from the viewpoint of the indoor man, but that indoor man conceived Russia in the terms of a western European land, a land with an impor- 85723—19 49 770 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. tant and well-distributed middle class which everywhere, having more or less property, is implicated in law and order in their own right and is always the bulwark of law and order everywhere. There was no such group in Russia. The 7 per cent had everything worth hav- ing of material wealth, and had had it through long yeais, and held it by power of the Cossack whip and sword. The 93 per cent had had noth- ing, except to do the labor and get rather illy requited for it. Those 93 per cent now had kicked the 7 per cent down the back stairs and were in command of the situation, and were mobilized and had some- thing like 12,000,000 rifles in their hands. How are you going to sta- bilize that situation by the advance of a Cossack general backed by groups of the 7 per cent ? But that is what they attempted, and what happened was that Korniloff reached Pskof with less than 20,000 sol- diers, Cossacks of his own tribal group. Ten thousand of those men the following morning refusing to march, Korniloff surrendered and was taken prisoner, and not a shot was fired and not a man was' killed. That is the actual situation, as history will prove. Senator Overman. How .lear had he gotten to Petrograd ? Mr. EoBiKS. About 80 miles from there. Allied representatives had participated in this adventure from a sincere and patriotic motive, able men, able in the old order but not on speaking terms with the new, believing that it was the right thing to do ; listening to what the 7 per cent said, who realized that if the revolution was stabilized they would suffer the loss of their old pri\'ileges forever. Senator Steeling. When you speak of the allied representatives, whom do you mean ? Mr. Robins. I mean the representatives of the allied Governments, who were there in Russia representing France, England. America, Italy. Senator Overman. You mean the ministers — the embassies? Mr. Robins. The embassies and the formal commissions, with only one exception in the situation, and that was the American Red Cross. There was no conflict between us at the time ; it was simply that we, having been forced into the outdoor situation, saw that a different conclusion was to be reached from what the others saw, and we pre- ferred not to take any part in it and were, happily from our stand- point, justified by events. After the Korniloff adventure had failed, the credit of Kerensky was reduced, because it was said everywhere among the workmen and peasants that Kerensky did not stop the counter-revolution, that they stopped it ; which was true ; and Kerensky was forced more and more from the real command of the situation. It was now useless to attempt to unite the civil power under Min- ister-President Kerensky with the military power, and get results, by the appointment of a competent food administrator. It was sug- gested that it would be well to find out just how far the program of defeatism had been carried into the barracks and among the soldiers. Senator Nelson. What do you mean by the program of defeatism? Do you apply that to the military situation between Russia and the allies? Mr. Robins. Yes. I mean that there were in Russia two groups seeking to disorganize the Russian Army, one the German agents, with plenty of money, very skillful, competent people, and the other BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 771 perfectly sincere but in my judgment terribly misguided Bolsheviki, who believed the class struggle was the only struggle worth talk- ing about. Those of us who know radical thought in America have been familiar with the argument for 20 years. The form of the doc- trine as applied was that the actual war between Germany — the cen- tral powers — and the allies was simply a war of contending capital- isms for the markets ; that the real war worth while was the war of the classes for economic power. It is the revolutionary socialist gospel, and it had a very considerable currency in Russia, aided by the design of the German agents and their money, aided by the mistaken revolu- tionary influence, not insincere, on the part of the Bolsheviki ; but it all amounted to the same thing, namely the disorganization of affairs in Eussia and the breaking of t^e front. I went into the barracks at the orders of my commanding officer, to speak to Russian soldiers. I spoke, on the whole, to a good many thousand, representing different arms of the service. I would speak for 30 minutes upon the American political system, saying, " You are going to organize a democracy yourselves here, and this is the way we have done it over in America — municipal, State, national," and I would explain our party system and our convention, and relate some amusing stories and facts, and that sort of thing, with which I have been reasonably familiar, and then explain our free educational system, which awakened great interest everywhere throughout Russia. They were very eager for general education. It had been denied them throughout the generations. I spoke of the kindergarten system, on up to the State university, free to the people, men and women on an equality, and they were vastly interested. Then I spoke of why America went into the war ; that America did not go into the war imtil after they had overthrown their Czar, that all free peoples were struggling against German militarism, and we were there to help them realize their revolutionary purpose of free- dom and that together we must fight to win the world war against German military autocracy. I had credentials from the labor groups of this country, which permitted me to be introduced properly and to make the appeal as a representative labor man — for I had been a coal miner in my youth — and I spoke the language of labor. I had been active in labor debate and controversy in America, always anti- socialist, as I then was and am yet, progressive, if you please, in mind, but a step at a time progressive — a very poor sort of progressive from the point of view of some people. After I had done this we opened every one of those meetings to questions and answers, and the ques- tions and answers would run until we were absolutely fagged out. There is no audience in the world that can endure an equal amount of punishment with a Russian audience from speakers, if I am any judge. I would answer these questions. Sometimes it would go to the point of riot, when we would have real difficulties, but usually there was a certain measure of good will at the conclusion. In those controversies we found out not what the boulevards said the workingmari, the peasant, the politician, inside the rank and file, was thinking, but what he actually was thinlring, and it was clear that what he was thinking, was " bread, land, and peace, and save the revolution ! " and " Do not be implicated in the imperialists' purposes of the war ! " The reason for that is not hard 772 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. to find. You see, Russia went into the war at the order of the Czar, and the ^A'ar was a czarist enterprise, in the mind of revohitionary Russia. The feeling among the peasants and workingmen of Russia when they overthrew the Czar was that they should stop the war. The line of argument ran something like this : " You went out to fight because you were ordered to fight by the Czar; you had to go, the Cossacks' whip and sword Avas over you. What was the war for? For the imperialist purposes of the autocracy and of the Greek Cath- olic Church ; to put the Greek cross over St. Sophia ; to get the Darda- nelles; to make the autocracy more powerful. Now you have been three years in the trenches, you have lost 4,000,000 of your brothers, 2,000,000 of them are slaves in the Central Empires, and 2,000,000 are dead, and why do you keep on fighting ? You have been starved and half naked most of the time, and your folks are suffering at home. The Germans that are fighting you are fighting you because they are forced to fight you by their Kaiser just as you were forced to fight them by your Czar." Senator Overman. Were those some of the questions they put to you? Mr. Robins. Yes. This is the talk : " They won't fight you if you won't fight them. They thought you were coming down to take their country and that is the reason they are fighting you. After a while they will overthrow their Kaiser. Why do you keep on fighting and Irilling your brother Germans. And, by the way, did you know that the land back in your province was being distributed, and if you do not get back there you won't get any land ? " There was the Iraltur that was taking the heart out of the Russian situation. Senator Sterling. That was the argument they would make to the soldiers, of course? Mr. Robins. Yes, sir ; and it was made from two groups. It was made by sincere Bolshevists who believed the " dope," and it was made by very cunning and competent German agents who were simply spreading it for the purpose of betraying Russia in the world war. There are two things I should like to speak of here, at this point. Underneath the whole situation, if one really wants to get it and understand it — and it is worth getting and understanding — is the fact of the paralysis of the economic arm in Russia ; and may I open that to your consideration? When the war broke out in 1914, this 7 per cent with force at their back had run the show in Russia from time immemorial. In that 7 per cent there was 1 per cent of the 7 that had practically 100 per cent of the economic, industrial, financial administration of Russia in their hands ; and that 1 per cent of the 7, that had nearly 100 per cent of this management, were nearly 100 per cent German when the war broke out. They were in most instances not even pretending to be citizens — German citizens — of Russia. They were the competent and fit men, engineers and others, trained in Berlin and Vienna, educated in the Russian language, familiar with the whole Russian story, sent in with a very careful design for economic, industrial, financial penetration of Russia for the benefit of the central powers. It had been going on for years. It began forty-odd years ago, extensively. It had been increased in the last 20 years. BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. 773 And here was your Russian bourgeois, one of the richest and most attractive and delightful persons you will meet anywhere, interested in education, in art, in literature, in the ballet, in the opera, in paint- ing, in fine, large, expansive things, one of the most friendly and delightful conversationalists in the world. A group of Russians — educated, privileged Russians — sitting around a table, is possibly the most delightful group I have ever met in a social way, with a wider expanse and more color and wit, etc., but utterly incompetent, if I am any judge. Senator, for effective organization industrially, and for economic management and control. They did not have that genius. It is not in their minds. It is not their genius. What had happened was that, having plenty of money, they hired the nearest competent person to run the show for them; and here was a German supervisor or overseer of their plantation; here was a German in charge of their mill, their mine, their factory, their timber production, their railroads — a German competent, well trained, there for the purpose of getting economic control of Russia. When the war broke out, within four days most of those gentle- men left. They left and went back to Berlin and Vienna, expecting to come back on the heels of a victorious army and possess what they had previously managed. Those that did not go back sub- merged, and became secret information agents for Berlin. But the actual economic mind, the brain at the top of the Russian economic industrial system, was gone, and immediately a partial paralysis of the whole economic system in Russia took place. They sabotaged as they left, these German managers. There are well authenticated cases of where they allowed fire to catch in some of the flowing wells in the Balm region, and where they turned in water on the coal mines, simply to make Russia incompetent for resisting German aggression. The Czar then followed with an order by which, had he been the brother instead of the cousin of the Kaiser, he could not have served him more perfectly — an order of general mobilization. Every able-bodied man between 18 and 43 years of age was on his way from factory, mine, shop, village, forest, mill, city, to the bar- racks or to the front, under this general mobilization, laying down his tools, laying down his ordinary vocation at a time when there was less than a million stand of arms in all Russia ; and what that did to the economic system of Russia you understand at once, with- out any stressing by me. This partial paralysis, extending through the economic life of Russia, began immediately after the declaration of war and mobili- zation. The Russian bourgeoisie answered to the call of patriotism and the need of the country in splendid fashion. They did yoeman work. Countesses, barons, princesses, princes, lords, and the rest of them just went in very much like many people in our country did, in a splendid fashion; and men like Prince Lvoff answered the need of the nation, developing a rather extraordinary ability. In the Zem- stvo organizations, the volosts, and Red Cross, and so on, they did splendid service; but lacking the actual technical knowledge they never caught up with the advancing economic paralysis that ran on without interruption ; and an evidence that they never caught up with it you will find in the fact that the revolution of March, 1917, 774 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. was preceded by bread riots in Petrograd and in Moscow, The failure of the economic arm in Russian life precipitated the revolu- tion. As soon as the revolution came about — the first revolution, the revolution of March, 1917 — these people, who had come in from the bourgeois class and this upper aristocratic group and had tried to fill the places the Germans had previously held, were thrown out, when the Czar and the autocracy were thrown out, and that in- creased the paralysis and left less economic brains at the top of the Russian organization. The economic paralysis extended unbroken clear through the Kerensky regime ; and underneath the break up of the arnij', underneath the disorganization in Russian life, is always and everywhere, to the one who really wants to know the situation, the economic misery, the failure of food, the failure of clothing, the distress because the ordinary necessities of daily life were not being secured ; and that is the foundation on which this defeatist argument and debate rested, and where it found a breeding place. When I had gone a certain distance in this effort of investigating the facts among the soldiers — after I got what the mind of the army really was — I made a report to my commanding officer. He was at this time Col. William B. Thompson, of New York. My first com- mander was the eminent physician and able leader. Col. Frank Billings, of Chicago ; but he was there only a short while. The com- mand then passed to Col. William B. Thompson, and may I suggest. Senator, that there may be some tolerable credibility in the position that Col. Thompson and myself hold, in the fact that we both hold it. Senator, you could not get two persons more absolutely alien in all past associatioiis and habits of thought than Col. William B. Thompson and myself. He was a stand-patter. He was the friend of those whom I had fought in American politics. He was in asso- ciation with the large financial interests of the country. It was re- lated that when he first met me on the mission, going over the list, he said: ''Maj. Robins?'" "Yes," said somebody, "Raymond Robins." " What ! Raymond Robins, that uplifter, that Roosevelt shouter? What is he doing on this mission';! " He had been engaged in trying to nominate Mr. Root at the same time that I was engaged in trying to nominate Mr. Roosevelt, and his whole setting was as different from mine as could be; and in the first meetings. Senator, the Jews had no dealings with the Samaritans. There was not any sort of relation anywhere at all. But he had that thing that is com- mon in America among successful business men, what you know. Senator, " as an outdoor mind"; a mind that does not take chatter; that constantly reaches out for facts ; that has had to do that to be successful in business. This man went to Russia with all the associations that would have made him an easy prey for the very delightful and interesting 7 per cent. He was wined and dined by them ; he went to their meetings and associated with them generally ; but he kept that outdoor mind, and he reached exactly the same conclusion on the situation that I did from the outside. I do not deserve any credit if I was right in reach- ing that conclusion, because I was kicked into it. I butted my nose and mv shins against the soviet until T knew it was there; but this BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 775 man from the indoors caught the range of the situation by the use of real intelligence. He was in command of the mission. He was eager in desire to serve the American national interests. We talked it over, and when I talk now I will be talking very largely things that he put into my mind. There are those who say I led William B. Thompson. Those people do not know William B. Thompson. He had altogether the best mind in the American Red Cross mission. He thought around all of us. I bear this testimony in this presence under oath, that when I lost the trail, as I did lose the trail half a dozen times in that complex situa- tion, he called me in and said : " There is the trail, over there, Robins," and in every instance he was right. He had one of those perfect noses, like a pointer dog for a scent, and he knew where it was running. He said : " Now, this thing is cutting deep, is it not — ^this thing that is going through Russia — this defeatist culture ? " I said : " Yes, Colonel; and it tends to disorganize the whole Russian social fabric." He said, " Well, what about the allied propaganda ? " I said : " Colonel, that is worse than nothing." The allied propaganda at that hour. Senator Overman, was this: Pictures and written words about how great France is, how tremendous England is, how over- whelming America is. " We will have 20,000 airplanes on the front in a few weeks. In a few months we will have 4,000,000 soldiers. We will win the war in a walk." The peasant moujik said : " Oh, is that so? Well, if the allies are going to win the war in a walk, we who have been fighting and working a long time, we will go back and see the folks at home " ; and the real effect of the allied propaganda was to weaken the morale instead of strengthening it, if I am any judge of the facts. It was agreed among us that there was an answer that was close to the ground, and that was genuine — an effort to interpret this to revo- lutionary Russia, cursed by the Czar's espousal of the allied cause, in the first instance, and by all the cross-currents that followed; that although it was not possible at all, I knew, to get that massed revolu- tionary mind to think as we thought as allies, it was possible to get them to fight Germany to save the revolution ; and if they served the cause we did not care anything about what they thought, and we said, " This is the situation : We have got to interpret the holding of the front and the defeat of German militarist autocracy into terms of saving the revolution ; and it happens to be true. We have got to say that if the German militarist autocracy wins, the Russian revolution is doomed. We have got to picture it until the average soldier and peasant sees behind the German bayonets the barons and feudal land- lords coming to take back the land ; behind the German bayonets the feudal masters of industry coming back to transmute the 8 hours and 15 rubles of the revolution back to the 2 rubles and 12 hours of the semislave days before the revolution in the factories, mills, and mines. We have got to have them see that behind the German bayonets are the grand dukes coming to destroy their local self- governing Soviets and revolutionary councils. If we do that, we can save the situation." In the second or third conference on this matter the question of money came up. It was a large enterprise. " How are you going to do it? " Well, it was perfectly apparent that you could not dp. it. There was no machinery to do it, no American or allied bureau to 776 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. do it. The allies shared in the common curse of the autocracy in the mind of peasant Eussia. It had to be Eussian, and it had to be revolutionary. There was in the Winter Palace at that time Madam Breshkovsky, that old and yet heroic figure, possibly the greatest revolutionary figure at that time. Madam Breshkovsky, after 40 years of service in Eussia for the revolution, was now at the Winter Palace in Petro- grad, having come back from Siberia in a triumphal journey with great celebrations, having been received in Petrograd by one of the greatest gatherings in the history of that city — this old peasant woman and revolutionist received in the great railroad station in the chamber of the Czar, honored by the ministers of the government, and all that sort of thing. She was now in the Winter Palace, in the grand duke's suite that looked out over the Neva to Peter and Paul where she had been three years a prisoner. It was a dramatic, a tre- mendous, setting. I had known her, known her for 12 years, known her when she was in this country ; had helped her in some of her work at that time. I knew Nicholas Tchaikovsky, a thoroughly sincere and genuine revolutionist, and at that time the head of the peasants' co- operatives in Eussia. It was agreed by Col. Thompson that there should be organized a committee on civic education for free Eussia. Madam Breshkovsky should be chairman of the committee ; and as members there should be Nicholas Tchaikovsky; Lazaroff, the Eussian revolutionist who had been head of the milk station or dairy in Switzerland, which was really an underground station for the Eussian revolution, for many years, and well known with credit through service to his country; Gen. Neuslakovsky, the most trusted member of Kerensky's general staff, who was in active cooperation with this committee from the military angle; and David Soskice, Kerensky's private secretary. They were to form the committee on " Civic Education in Free Rus- sia." The program was this : " We will begin by buying some news- papers, and with other publicity we will prepare simple statements in peasant patois and in the general terms of the Eussian peasant's and workingman's mind, by Eussian peasants and workmen, not by intel- ligentsia. We well send into the ranks and into the peasant villages this new gospel of fighting German militarist autocracy ; not to serve the allies but to serve and to save the revolution." In discussing it, the question of money was brought up, and it was suggested that it would be an expensive thing, and I sug- gested that we could not start with less than 6,000,000 rubles. There was no money in the embassies. There was no money in the missions. William B. Thompson, in the last end of it, ordered me to proceed; and when I suggested that it was a large amount of money, he said : " You will have a credit in the Petrograd branch of the National City Bank of 12.000,000 rubles." We had the 12,000,000 rubles, and that 12,000,000 rubles came from the pocket of William B. Thompson, out of his private fortune, and is the money that has been heralded in America as having been spent for the Boisheviki. May record be made at this time of this factj William B. Thompson never spent a dollar for the Boisheviki at any time or place, but he spent a million dollars of his own money trying to prevent the Boisheviki from getting control of Eussia. That happens to be true.. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 777 Mr. Humes. Colonel, may I interrupt you ? You say " 12,000,000 rubles." What was the exchange value of a ruble at that time? Mr. KoBiNS. It varied in a variety of ways — all kinds of ways. It ran up to one kind of exchange and another, but the actual, legal exchange fixed by the government, by Kerensky's own request, was obviated in this case, and we got down to the actual value. In other words, the ruble was not worth as much in its transfer as it would have been in ordinary proceedings. Senator Overman. Something like a million dollars, I suppose? Mr. EoBiNS. Yes, sir. We at once went to work. It was known that a great deal of this work had to be done personally ; that so much of Eussia was illit- erate that you could not by the printed word or even by pictures carry your story. You had to carry it by word of mouth. Madam Bresh- kovsky's connections and Nicholas Tchaikovsky's connections and our relation to the general staff enabled us to release this man in this barracks, and that man in that regiment, and that man in that com- pany, and this peasant in this village — release them for propaganda purposes and turn them loose on the situation. We had better than 800 persons, men and women, tried revolutionists, vouched for by Madam Breshkovsky and Nicholas Tchaikovsky, turned loose into the situation. The American Government was then cabled, through the Eed Cross — probably gentlemen here will know the exact facts — asking for a million dollars in 10 days, and $3,000,000 a month for 3 months, to carry forward this enterprise. Senator Steeling. Col. Eobins, may I ask you a question there? Just what did this educational work include ? Mr. Eobins. Simply the interpretation to the revolutionary group, to the army, and to the peasant villages of how absolutely indispens- able to the saving of the revolution it was to keep the front and defeat the German militarist autocracy. Senator Sterling. I see. Mr. Eobins. That that was necessary for their purposes, not ours. It happened that it was helpful for ours, but for theirs it was perfectly clear. Senator Steeling. Exactly. Mr. Eobins. We got a response to that cable some time three weeks after the cable was sent — an equivocal response. Senator — indicating that there was some question about such a program, and that a repre- sentative of the Committee on Public Information would be sent over there to inquire into whether or not it was a good thing to do. We sent urgent cables in relation to that situation. The fact is that after that response came we curtailed and withdrew our extension pro- gram, necessarily, waiting for the approval of our Government, we did not want to do anything that the Government did not want us to do, even though we felt it was tremendously urgent, and when the agent of the Government reached there the Bolsheviki had been in command of the works for better than two weeks. I have here a cable which I would like to submit to the committee at this point, which I think shows that we were not in doubt as to the situation. Here is the cable : Following message signed Thompson for Davis on National Red Cross Head- quarters October seventh only by desperate efforts present Government was all 778 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Russian Democratic conference just adjourned prevented from being controlled by Maximalists whose leaders influenced by German propaganda are openly advocating Immediate peace. Maximalists now actively seeking to control all Russian congress of workmen's and soldiers' deputies meeting here this month. If they succeed will form new government with disastrous results probably leading to separate peace. We are using every resource but must have imme- diate support or all efforts may be too late. We who are here can not conceive how the responsibility for failure to act in this situation can willingly be assumed by any American unless the United States contemplating negotiations for an early peace. Senator Overman. That is from Col. Thompson, the gentleman who preceded you ? Mr. EoBiNs. Yes, sir ; the second commander of the Red Cross mis- sion in Russia. Senator Nelson. To whom was that addressed? Mr. EoBiNS. To the Government, through the Red Cross. In the development of the situation, the growth of the soviet power was so apparent, so manifest at all points, that some of us who wanted to hold that front at any hazard believed that the soviet, by reason of its culture and by reason of its revolutionary character, however alien it might be to the general allies' cause, would be alien to the German militarist autocracy, and could be dealt with on that basis. We did not care what it might say, if what it did was useful to the situation. In talking the matter over it was suggested that Kerensky might accept the soviet, which was the real outdoor power in Russia, and that in that acceptance the provisional government might be founded upon the real new social control, the revolutionary mass in Russia, and that we might tide over the situation. At this hour Tcheidze uas the president of the Petrograd Soviet, the soviet of the imperial cityj and the president of the executive committee of the all-Russian Soviet, and the warm supporter and friend of Kerenslry. If Kerensky could say what Lenine and Trotzky had said, he could yet win. There vi'ere just five words that won the Soviets of Russia for the Bolshevik polic}'. Th(isp five words were, "All power to the soviet." Let me illustrate. When I went into Russia the mensheviki, bitter opponents of the Bolsheviki. were in majority in every soviet in Russia. The Bolshe- viki being competently led by discerning politicians, whatever else they were, said, "All power to the soviet," and on those five Avords they took possession of Russia. Well, that was perfectly apparent. The power was there. There were only two things in Russia — either the soviet or the old regime. Xow, you might not like the soviet, but the old regime, always rest- ing back on some force, if their own rifles were taken away from them would have to rest on foreign rifles, and the nearest foreign rifles were German rifles, and they were used for German commercial, financial, industrial penetration, and they would cooperate with the Germans if it came to a test between the peasants and the workingmen and themselves, as was evidenced when Miliukoff and the cadets — sincere and patriotic men in the first instance — finally went down to Kiev and cooperated with the Germans rather than stand with the revolu- tionary workmen and peasant soldiers of Russia. That is what we saw there. We saw a situation in which the front would be opened, by men who did not intend it at the start, by the BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 779 mere drift of affairs. To maintain themselves against the revolu- tionary workers and peasants they would have to side with the Ger- man power ; and so we said, " Our interest here is with the soviet for the time being, inevitably if it comes to a showdown between the reaction and the soviet." Kerensky at this point in one of the conferences said something like this, "Why won't the allies really understand Russia? They force me to talk western European liberalism two-thirds of the time for their benefit, while I have to talk Russian Slavic socialism one-third of the time for the sake of living 24 hours " ; and the crucifixion between this indoor, formal mind on the one hand and the extraordinary outdoor Russian situation on the other was what crucified Kerensky and his provisional government; and Kerensky was a sincere friend of the allies, a sincere friend of revolutionary Eussia, and a man who would have worked out a moderate socialistic program. May I get before the committee — because what people say is not nearly so important as what actually occurs, if we can get to the facts — may I state this, as revealing just how that indoor mind worked in Russia and how it was moved into conflict with the actual situation again and again. A conference took place on the 3d of No- vember, 1917, in the office of the American Red Cross, in the special private office of Col. William B. Thompson, commander on that date. That conference was called because the spreading power of the Soviet and its contest against the provisional government for position after position, in which it won every contest, practically, showed us what the situation was. I at this time had secret agents scattered about in the different regiments and barracks. There was one particular unit that was of master importance in the situation. It was the armored-tank corps. I need not say in this presence that where armored machine-gun tanks and armored tanks carrying 3-inch cannon go, whichever side they go with, where there is not big artillery to meet them, is the way the power runs. I had kept a window in that corps for some time. A man who was in my employ and drove one of those cars came to me one morning and said, "We had a meeting last night. The corps is almost evenly divided between support of the Bolsheviki and support of the pro- visional government, but it is a hundred per cent for support of the soviet " ; and that was practicall}^ the situation. Well, we knew that the Bolsheviki were going to maneuver the play until they would have the soviet future in front of them; and so, in defending the soviet, they would take the rifles, and if that hour ever came it was apparent what would happen. Mr. Humes. May I interrupt you. Colonel? You said that con- ference was February 3, 1917. You meant 1918, did you not? Mr. Robins. No, sir; I meant 1917. Did I say February? I meant November. Thank you for correcting me. May I be corrected at that point — November 3, 1917? • Senator Nelson. It could not be February, because that was before the Kerensky revolution. Mr. Robins. Quite right, sir. In this meeting, called for the purpose of stabilizing the Kerensky government and of getting the allied group, if possible, to cooperate 780 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. in a possible bridge bet\Yeen Kerensky and the so\-iet power in Ivussia — the provisional government and the soviet power — there met in that conference Gen. Knox, chief of the British military mis- sion in Eussia and military attache of the British Embassy at Petro- grad, an able, patriotic, sincere general, used to "those people that know not the law," used to India and to Egypt, a fine expression of the mailed-fist end of the situation, thoroughly sincere and thor- oughly patriotic, in my judgment ; Gen. Neiszelle, in the same posi- tion for the French Government in Russia, head of its military mission, military attache of its embassy; Gen. William V. Judson, in the same position for the American Government in Eussia; Gen. Xeuslakovsky ; David Soskice ; Col. William B. Thompson, and my- self. I was "there simply as a sort of orderly for Col. Thompson. Senator Nelson. Was Trotzky one of them? Mr. EoBiNS. No, sir. Senator Nelson. I thought you mentioned Trotzky's name just noTv. Mr. EoBiNS. No; Gen. Neuslakovsky. You misunderstood me, Senator. Trotsky was outside the breastworks in those days. Col. Tliompson is a man of very few words. He is a person who does things rather than talks about them. He said, in a very brief statement, what we were there for. Gen. Knox then took the floor and he began to denounce the feebleness of the provisional govern- ment, the failures of Kerensky, his incompetence; he should have killed Lenine and Trotzky; he should have shot the Bolshevists. Well, as there were probably several million of them, that was quite a little job. He went on to speak of the things that we all knew and deplored just as much as he did, but it was all downstream. He sat down and Gen. Neiszelle took the floor, and anything that had been left out of Gen. Knox's statement was not left out of Gen. Neiszelle's. He just ripped the Eussian situation, Kerensky and the army, up and down — and they deserved a certain amount of rip- ping. Senator. He talked about the Tarnapol disaster; he talked about that miserable situation, and finally wound up with something about Russian soldiers being cowardly yellow dogs. Well, you can imagine what that did to a Eussian general. Flushed and humili- ated, he leaves. Mr. Soskice, just recovering from pneumonia, is almost helpless. And then we are just this group together of allies, nothing done, two hours and a half spent in perfectly good down- stream talk. Gen. Knox turns to me and says : " I am not interested in stabilizing Kerensky. I do not believe in Kerensky and his gov- ernment. It is incompetent and inefficient and worthless. You are wasting Thompson's money. " I said, " Well, if I am, the colonel knows all about it." He continued : " You ought to have been with Korni- loff." I said, "Well, General, you were with Korniloff"; and he flushed, because he knew that I knew that English officers had been put in Eussian uniforms in some of the English tanks to follow up the Korniloff advance, and very nearly opened fire on the Kor- niloff forces when they refused to advance from Pskov, and a ' good twist had come into the allied situation in consequence. I said, " We could not have added a whole lot to the Korniloff ad- venture, could we ? " He said, " Well, that may have been prema- ture, but the only thing in Eu&sia to-day is Son'inkov Kaledines " — BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. 781 Kaledines, a Cossack general — " and a military dictatorship. These people have got to have a whip over them." I said, " General, you may get a dictatorship of a very different character." He said, " You mean this Trotzky-Lenine-Bolshevik stuff — ^this soap-box stuff? " I said, " Yes ; that is what I mean." He said, " Col. Eobins, you are not a military man f you do not know anything about military af- fairs. Military men know what to do with that kind of stuff. We stand them up and shoot them." I said, "Yes; if you catch them you do." Senator Steeling. Let me ask you right there, what were the activities of Lenine and Trotsky at the time you were holding this conference ? Mr. Robins. Spreading the formula of the powers of the all- Eussian soviet; that the next meeting of the all-Russian soviet would take over the government ; that we must relieve the situation ; that we must distribute the lands to the peasants and stop the sol- diers and workmen of the world from fighting in the imperialistic wars, and stuff of that sort. I said to him, " I think you are facing another sort of dictatorship. I admit, general, I do not know any- thing about military affairs, but I know something about folk; I have been working among them all my life. I have been out in Rus- sia, and I think that you are facing a folk situation." That confer- ence closed, and nothing was done, and these gentlemen went out of it much in the frame of mind of "What was yesterday will be to-morrow." The following Monday — ^not a week later, but the following Mon- day — the Bolsheviki took the arsenal and the fortress of Peter and Paul at the point of the bayonet, and on Tuesday they took over the telephone and telegraph stations, and on Wednesday they took the Nikolaiev railroad station, and on Wednesday night they stormed and carried the Winter Palace and made prisoners of those mem- bers of the government who had not escaped. On the morning of the 7th at 2 a. m. they convened the second all- Eussian soviet and passed the decree making distribution of all the land to the peasants, the most definite and necessary demand in the mind of revolutionary Russia, the decree giving control of the fac- tories and industries to the workmen, the decree placing all the powers of government in the soviet, this revolutionary body to be recognized as the supreme governmental power, and fourth, a de- cree offering general democratic peace to the world. Lenine and Trotzky were elected to their positions of influence and power in the government. Other agents of the people were elected as com!- missars, the actual group. Senator, that has had power in domestic European Russia from that hour to this. This complete change of the center of public power in Russia took place absolutely without any more real sense of what was behind it than is revealed by the situation and facts of the conference that I have just related. Now, Senators, we were faced with a very difficult situation. At one hour when we were beginning this propaganda to stabilize Kerensky and oppose the Bolsheviki, Col. Thompson called me in. and it being a military organization I was standing at attention, and he said, "Maj. Robins, do you know what this means? " I said, "I think it means the only real chance to save this situation. Colonel." 782 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. He said, " Xo; I mean, do you knoAv what it means to you?" I said, ■'What does it mean? " He said, "It means that if we fail you get shot." I said, " That is all right. Better men, younger men, and therefore men with more to lose than I have got to lose, are getting shot every day on the -western front " ; and I said, " Colonel, if I get shot, yon will get hung." He was smoking all tlie time, and he said, " I wouldn't be surprised if you are damn right." That was the situation we were in. We had made a definite attempt to support Kerensky, who was now overthrown. I had men out on the western front looking after certain parts of that situation, sur- reptitiously, disguised. I saw Kerensky in the field, and I saw his troops abandon him in the field at Tatchina. I heard the appeal that was made to his men asking them if they would fight against their brothers in arms, their Russian comrades ; asking them if they would support Kerensky, the servant of the imperialistic allies, as they called him; if they would continue their fight against the working men of other nations. I saw company after company crumble. I went back to my chief and I said, " Chief, we have got to move pretty fast." I told him, " Several things are clear in this complex situa- tion. The first is that Kerensky is as dead as yesterday's 7,000 years." No one had been more loyal toward him, no one had spent so much of his private personal money for Kerensky's government, as Col. William B. Thompson. We all in the Red Cross had done our best for the provisional government. We refused now to blind ourselves. We agreed and said, "All that is over. This idea that Kerensky is going to build up an army somewhere and come back against soviet Russia is all bunk. The idea that Moscow is going to rise up and come against the all-Russian soviet — the Holy City and the bour- geois — that is all bunk. There is not anything in that. The idea that the Cossacks are coming up from the Don is all bunk. They will never get here from the Don. There are too many peasants with rifles in between. The idea that the White Guard is coming down from Finland to save us, that stuff is bunk. This group that are run- ning this show at Smolny are going to run the show for quite a while longer." We did not know how long, but long enough to determine and condition Russia in the world war. Now, we were up to the point as to whether there was anything useful to Russia and helpful to the allied cause that could be done with the Russian soviet. " That is our situation, and we have got to elect very quickly. We have got supplies here. We have got to have guards and protection over those supplies. The Kerensky credentials and the Kerensky authority are gone. Those supplies may be looted to-morrow as counter-revolu- tionary supplies, because of our support of Kerensky. We have to move quickljr." At that hour, again, the 7 per cent mind was apparent in the whole city. Senators and gentlemen, you know what the 7 per cent mind said. You have had it here in America. They said: "These are thieves and murderers and German agents, and they will only last three weeks or six weeks at most. They will be swept aside, and we Avill have Miliukov and Gutchkov and Rodzianko and Shidlovsky, and the nice respectable cadets whom we can do business with. There never was any foundation in outside Russian facts for this opinion, but it was honestly believed in certain quarters, around the tea tables BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 783 in the palaces, and our people and most of the allies believed it, and their position was, as it were, to draw their skirts about them and stand off on one side and say, " We will have nothing to do with this wicked government. They will only last a little while." We saw the situation differently. We saw them as the actual power in Eussia. At the conference Ave had I made a statement that was reduced to writing : " Here are 180,000,000 folks ; they inhabit one-sixth of the earth's surface, with vast natural resources, with a great deal of available raw material, right here. Admit that the Kaiser has got the jump on us at this point in the game. We mean right by Russia; we mean freedom and cooperation and fair play. Germany means wrong by Eussia; she means domination, the re- establishment of the old order, militarism, autocratic domination. Suppose they are German crooks and thieves in the government at Smolny. For the moment they have the power. Can we not work with this thing, and finally bring out the better purposes of these folks, Avho are kindly, worthy people in the main? Can we not deal with these men ? Are there not as good brains under American hats as under German helmets? Let us not abandon this land, but let us work through those that are in power and have got the rifles behind them. Whatever is done in Eussia for quite awhile has got to be done with these people." Senator Nelson. What did you hope to accomplish by going in with this gang? Mr. EoBiNs. I will tell you. Senator. It was said at that time that they were criminals, and this, that, and the other charge was made. I said, " Suppose they are ; some of us have been in politics and dealt with American political bosses, and if there is anyone more corrupt or worse in Smolny than some of our crooks, then they are some crooked, that's all ! We will take our chances, and see what can be done." I went to Smolny and into Trotzky's office. We had certain sup- plies in Petrograd. We had guards around" those supplies. We had to protect them at once. I wanted to find out what we could do — at least what he said we could do — and then I would test what he said by what he did, and then I would have a judgment on Trotzky. T went into his office. There was a captain standing at his desk who had heard me speak in one of the barracks when I was denounc- ing the Bolsheviki and was supporting Kerensky. When I went in he started and looked at me, and then began denouncing me, talking and gesticulating to Trotzky, saying I was a counter-revolutionist and Kerenskyite. Every other word was " counter-revolution, Keren- skyite." I put up my hand and said to my interpreter: " You tell the commissioner not to be under any delusions in regard to me. I was for Kerensky. I came to Eussia to help the Eussian people, and I found Kerenskj^ as president of the revolutionary government of Eussia. I began working with Kerensky and woi'ked with him for three months, so far as I had any power. I did my best to keep the commissioner from having power." At this Trotzky bristled, but before he could answer I said: "Will you say to the commissioner that I differ from some men I know, in that I know a corpse when I see one, and I regard the provisional government as dead, and I regard the commissioner as having all the power that is immediately 784 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. effective now in Eussia." That rather smoothed Trotzky down. I said, " You will say to the commissioner that I want to know whether he wants the American Eed Cross to remain in Eussia ; whether we ran serve the Eussian people without injury to our national interests, and if we can not, if we have got to get out." And I said, " That is what I have come for, to get a clear understanding with the commis- sioner. So far as I know the commissioner's domestic program I am against it, but it is none of my business what happens in domestic Eussia, and I do not intend to interfere with it. And if Kaladines, or Korniloff, or the Czar, or anyone else, had the power that the com- missioner has in Eussia to-day, I would be talking to them." From the hour that I made this statement I never had any mis- understanding with Leon Trotzky. He said he wanted us to stay. " Well, all right. Now, what we want to do is to send a train of 32 cars of supplies to the American Eed Cross mission in Jassy, in Eoumania. Will you give us cars, franks, Bolshevik credentials, to send that train through? " We could not, in sending this train of supplies to Eoumania, by any interpretation, aid the Germans. If it went through, it showed they were willing to let something go through that helped a group honestly fighting the Germans. It showed that they had control through Bolshevik Eussia to get the train across. It showed that they had sufficient power of protection to save that train from being looted when it went through famine districts. If we sent our people there with this train and they lost their lives and we lost the supplies, it was war work. They gave us what we asked and we sent the train. It reached Jassy in record time, without a pound of material taken, without a dollar of graft, under the guard of Bolshevik rifles and under a Bolshevik frank. That, at least, was a good thing. Now, the next step — raw materials in Eussia. There were lead, copper, nickel, platinum, oils, fats, hides, cotton, and wool, all of great moment as munition materials for the central powers. Imme- diately, here is Count von Mirbach with his commission. When we faced agents of the German foreign office, the most skiUful among the secret agents of the central Empires, working away on the raw- material situation, I said, "We must make a move there." We stopped 50 cars of supplies at Viborg and held them there until they were confiscated under the Bolshevik government, because the rule of embargo against supplies going into the central powers was still not repealed, nor was it repealed until after March 16, 1918. We stopped those cars and got that stuff confiscated. " Now," I said to myself, '■' that is the real thing. How much further can we go ? " At this point may I say to you, gentlemen, that I dealt with those men on the theory that they might be German agents, for two or three months. I would have dealt with the devil in an hour like that if we could save the situation for the allied cause and keep raw mate- rials out of Germany. Trotzky and Lenine discovered in the first conference we had with them that they sensed the primary situation in Eussia, which was the economic paralysis at the top of the Eussian economic and indus- trial life ; that no government could stay in office long that could not feed its people; and at once they began talking with me about eco- nomic cooperation with America, never for one moment pretending BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 785 friendship for America, never for a moment pretending that they were not engaged in a revolutionary enterprise and that they hoped to reach America before they got done; but in the meantime we understood that we were better enemies of our enemies than anybody else in Russia. Think of it, gentlemen — ^of popularizing the idea of giving the land to the working Eussian and German peasants! What does that do to the Grerman junkfer ? Think of popularizing the idea of all industrial control in workingmen in Eussia and Germany ! What does that mean to Herr Ballin, Herr Lohman, and Herr Krupp, and the other industrial magnates in Germany ? Think of populariz- ing the putting of all political power into the hands of the soviet locals ! What does that mean to the highly centralized power of the German general staff ? They thought we would know and understand that their culture helped us against the German military autocracy. As Trotzky and Lenine said to me, " If you will send over men to take the economic leadership in this country, you will have a tremendous advantage as against Germany. Germany has not been running this show for a number of years. The Germans are out of it. In the meantime you will get this economic advantage, and in the meantime we wiU feed our folks " ; and I got the idea that they were fearful of the failure of bread. That was all they were afraid of. I said, "I am glad that we can work with this thing and check this raw material going into the central powers. If we can get control of the economic resources of Eussia, we will be having a really merry time, and we are in the position, if it comes to a show-down, of at least pre- venting anybody else from coming in here." Here was Mirbach with his commission, eager to get command of the eewnomic situation in Eussia. Here was America, the only other source of supply for leadership of the economic situation. There had been prepared a Eed Cross map, carefully marking out, in rela- tion to the actual facts, the centers of surplus and centers of deficit in primary food supply — bread and meat — throughout European Eus- sia, showing that with 30 days of work under a directing mind that knew how to get oil out of the ground with no more machinery — with nothing more than was lying outdoors in Eussia, 30 days simultane- ously in the Baku oil region, and the same number of days of action under the mind that knew how to get the coal out of the ground in the Donetz and other coal fields, directing work, and then 60 days of transportation with the use of the cars and locomotives there in Eus- sia, we had solved the problem of primary food supply and could have fed all Eussia. This had been partly prepared for the Kerensky situation. One day in a conference — I am talking to Trotzky, now — He said, " You are interested in stopping raw materials from going into the central empires." They knew that we knew what condition the army was in. He said, " You can put your officers on the frontier to enforce the embargo." I said, "All the American officers? " He said, "All the allied officers." Senator Steeling. All the allied officers ? Mr. EoBiNS. All the allied officers. I stopped, and I said, " You know I am in great comfort here, and I am not a diplomat and not a general, and I have no past and no future, and I can afford to be as Ignorant as I please — as I really am. Frankly, I do not understand your proposition. In our American language, it looks to me as if this 85723—19 50 786 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGAlirDA'. has ' got something on it.' What do you mean by saying you will let us put our officers on the frontier and enforce the embargo ? Germany needs raw materials and you need manufactured products. You do not care anything about America. You are against the German autocracy, but you care about supporting your revolution here, and you need these manufactured products." He said, " Col. Eobins, it is quite simple. This is the situ'ation : We have offered general demo- cratic peace to the world — no annexations, no contributions, self-de- termination of nationalities. Germany has recognized this govern- ment in the conference we are going to have at Brest. We are go- ing to stir up the comrades in Berlin and Vienna to force their mili- taristic Government to give us democratic peace. We are going to stir up the comrades in America and in France to force your imperial- istic and capitalistic Governments to come into the conference." I smiled- He said, " We will continue this conference as long as pos- sible, but some time we will have to make peace with the central powers because of the economic condition of Russia as well as the military condition in Russia, to give us a breathing space ; but I will never sign any peace but a democratic peace- It will have to be no annexations, no contributions, and self-determination of nationali- ties." And it is of record in the peace conference at Brest that he kept his agreement. I was satisfied that he would prolong the Brest conference as long as possible for another reason, of which he did not speak. I was satisfied of this because of what I knew of him. I thought by this time that I knew some characteristics of this extraor- dinary Jew. Let us look at him a moment ; 38 years old ; a Russian Hebrew, revolutionist exile; orator, gifted above any man I have ever known as a platform speaker ; can do more with a mass of people than any speaker I have ever heard, and I have known most of the speakers of my time. Senator Overman. Is he an educated man? Mr. Robins. Yes ; a thoroughly educated man. He has, though, the weaknesses of his gifts. He is a sort of prima donna. In hours of suc- cess he is unreasonable, heady, high-handed ; and in moment of failure he is moody, gloomy, irascible, and lacking in steadfast patience and steady nerve. I personally have always had a question mark over Trotzky ; a question as to what he will do ; a question as to where he will be found at certain times and places, because of his extreme ego, and the arrogance, if you please, of the ego. I knew Trotzky would prolong the conference and continue it as long as possible, because it was the fullest expression of his ego that he had ever had. He was the center of the world, he thought, while that went on. He spoke to a larger audience than he had ever spoken to before or could hope to speak to again ; so that I said that that conference would be pro- longed, resting it on the personality of the man who had the greatest f ootlight opportunity of his time. Trotzky went on to say, " When we get to the place where we have to make terms with the central powers they can not afford to make a democratic peace with revolu- tionary Russia, burdened as we are by our economic and military situation. The Germans can not make a democratic peace with us. Col. Robins, no annexations, no indemnities, self-determination of nationalities. Forty "years of culture, 40 years of Treitschke, 40 years of might makes right, are entirely against it. The .whole junker BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA, 787 and militaristic class are involved against it. If they make peace with their weakest enemy, after three years of blood and slaughter and wasted treasure, the militaristic domination is o\'er." Senator Steeling. This is the language of Trotsky ? Mr. EoBiNS. Yes, sir. " Nevertheless, people do what they can not do, if they have to. If, by the time we reach peace negotiations with the central powers for separate peace, we have stirred a sufficient num- ber of comrades in Berlin and Vienna to make the German Govern- ment afraid to go back on its pronunciamento of the 9th of July, 1917, when the German Government offered democratic peace — a camouflage — and if we can add to that the great need for raw materials, then the German General Staff may give Russia a fair peace. They will never do it if they can get the raw materials without the peace- Now do you see why I am willing to put your officers of the allied force out on the frontier to enforce the embargo?" I thought I saw then, and I think I see now, that it was a perfectly selfish and understandable situation, which had nothing to do with friendship for America or for the allies. It was carrying forward his policy to an understandable end. We went to the representatives of the allied military missions and urged that we enter into negotiations at that time with Trotzky to that end. It seemed to me, inasmuch as the army was rotten, inasmuch as the raw materials of Russia were the great need of the central powers, that it was the wise move. If we put our men on the frontier and our men were killed, then we knew where we were ; we had an acknowledged situation. If they were not killed, we stopped raw materials from going into the central empires. Gentlemen of the allied missions threw up their hands and said: " What ! Work with this German agent, thief and murderer govern- ment? Nothing doing ! And, anyhow, Robins, we might think of it if they had any real power, but they have not. They will not last but three months longer. We understand so-and-so " ; and then they went on with some stupid talk — some of this 7 per cent chat — and they stood off on the side ; and it is a matter of history — will be when it is written — that the American general who was in favor of our position in the conference of Friday, the 3d of November, because he had been in Russia long enough, first as observer for America and the American Army in the Russo-Japanese War, then sent over to Russia by the President as a member of the Root mission, sent over there be'cause of his military knowledge, the chief of the American military mission^ Gen. William B. Judson Senator Steeling. Would his view be in accordance with the facts you have just expressed here? ' " Mr. Robins. I do not want to say that he would be in accord with my whole view. The general can speak for hiinself. But -he was irf favor of dealing with Trotsky as the vital power, as a matter of fact, in Russia at that time. He went to see him, and because he Went to see Trotzky in order to arrange to prevent raw materials froha going into the Central Empires, he V7as summarily recalled to this country'. I was handling supplies and getting trains and doing other useful things. There was no debate about the things that I was doing being ■ actually useful; it was only that they would not be useful if that government was only there for a short while. I wtts guessing that 788 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. they would be there for quite a long while. They were guessing that it would be overthrown day after to-morrow. The next day I went back to have a discussion with Trotzky, and he said, " Have you not got a railroad mission somewhere? " I said, "Yes." "Where?" "Nagasaki." "What is it doing there?" " Eating its head off." " Why does it not come on here? " " You know, commissioner, we are not sure about this situation here. You know there are a good many sincere men who think this thing is all rotten, and is being directed from Berlin." He said, " Do they think that still? " I said, " Yes; many of them do." He said, " You send in your mission. We will give you control of the Trans-Siberian at all points. We will make any man you designate assistant commis- sioner of ways and communication, and let him have an office right in with our minister of ways and communication of the Soviet gov- ernment here in Moscow ; and then we will divide the resources in transportation in Russia, 50 per cent to be used for solving the food question, 50 per cent to be used for evacuating the war supplies from the front and from the important cities on the western front where, if the conference fails in Brest and the Germans advance, they will get those supplies first." It was a perfectly selfish proposition. They greatly needed the organization of the transportation, and he did not have the people in the soviet government that could deliver the goods. We wanted those munitions and war materials evacuated from the cities on the western front and kept out of Germany. Senator Nelson. But at that time they did not have the control of the railroad in Siberia. Mr. EoBiNS. They had it from Vladivostok to Petrograd. They had free control of the railroad in there at that time. Senator Nelson. I think you are wrong there. Mr. Robins. No. I think, Senator, you will find that the error is that you are thinking of a later date, that it is further along in the story than I am speaking. The soviet took full command of tho railroads Senator Nelson. Where were you at that time? Mr. EoBiNS. I was in Petrograd. Senator Nelson. How do you know the condition of the Siberian Railroad? Mr. Robins. There is no doubt about it. There is no doubt about this particular period of time that I am talking about. The soviet was in command at all points. Senator Steeling. When, do you say ? Mr. Robins. In January, or in December, 1918. There had been no Czecho-Slavok move. Senator Nelson. The Czecho-Slavoks were there ? Mr. Robins. Not then. Senator Nelson. And we had forces at Vladivostock ? Mr. Robins. Not then. Senator Nelson. There were English and French and Japanese forces there. Mr. Robins. No ! I am sure you are thinking of a later period. Senator Nelson. No ; I am speaking of the fall and winter of iha Bolshevik revolution. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 789 }/Lr. E0BH1&. Ohj the Czecho-Slovaks at that time were in the Ukraine, Senator. ; Senator NEiiSON. Oh, no ; oh, no. . Mr. KoBiNS. Pardon me. Now, he said to me, " This is what you can do." I went back with this proposition. The American Am- bassador thought well of it. Not at first, but later, others opposed it vigorously; said that any cooperation was wrong; that any sort of relationship was wrong ; that it would not be effective ; that the gov- ernment was soon to be overthrown. What I felt, Senators, was this, that if we got a demonstration, at any time or anywhere, of facts, we would get out of the realm of conjecture. Suppose we put in our men there and they took command and they were killed; suppose the thing was at once delivered and turned over to the Germans; then we had the fact of this delivery. That was of great consequence. We would know, then, where we were. Senator Nelson. Now, without quite so much circumlocution, the effect of this was that you wanted to form an alliance between our Government and the Trotsky government at that time for a certain jkurpose ? . Mr. Robins. An economic cooperation. Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Robins. That is it ; no question about it. . Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Robins. This plan was refused. Subsequently, in a confer- ence, there was laid down on the table a map showing the armaments on, the Russian front — showing the big gun situation on the western front. Senator Steeling. Just one word, that I may have the connection. You say this plan was refused. Was that the plan in reference to the railroad ? Mr. Robins. Yes. Senator Steeling. Taking control of the Trans-Siberian Railroad? Mr. Robins. Yes. Trotzky showed us, " Here is a gun, a 12-inch gun, shoots 12 miles — 3 miles back from the front. Here is one here, and the next one here, and the next one here, and so on all along this front." He said, " You know that the army will never do any advancing. The most that it can hope to do is to hold that front." I thought I did know it. He said, " We will never use these guns any more. There are tons and tons of ammunition there. Those guns came from England, and that ammunition came from England. If we fail at Brest the Germans will take those guns. If you come in and help us in transportation, you can begin to evacuate those guns at once. If you evacaute those guns, you can take them immediately to Archangel and the Murman coast, or anywhere you please." It seemed to me that much was worth while doing. The facts are that a number of weeks passed during which evacuation operations could have taken place, and that when the Germans advanced after the failure of the Brest negotiations, they did take those munitions, and those guns and took them over to the western front, where they killed our boys in the March drive with them, and in the June drive — with the big guns and ammunition sent by England to Russia. They were used by the Germans to destroy the lives of allied soldiers. 790 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. During this time I had been for some period the unofficial repre- sentative of the American Government, at the request of the ambas- sador of the United States. There came a time, in December, when it was believed in certain quarters — vigorously believed — that any as- sociation with the soviet was utterly wrong, and because I was in association — having responsible tasks to deliver that could not be de- livered except by dealing with the actual power that was there — that I should be stopped. An order came from the Government that I should not continue relationship with the soviet. The ambassador of the United States, because of the conditions then in Russia and because I was the only allied officer that had a contact, and I suppose because he trusted me — I hope so — requested that the American Gov- ernment withdraw that prohibition, and instructed me to continue my association, which I did ; and I was, from that time until the time I left Russia, in constant cooperation with the ambassador of the United States, reporting to him on every situation that I could find, and being the unofficial medium bj^ which he carried his purposes and his instructions to the soviet powers. In the course of this situation there developed certain hours in the Brest conference when it was believed that we might have a new fighting situation develop, that might start war against Germany. I was instructed by the Ambassador of the United States to make cer- tain representations to the soviet powers, specific and written, as to what America would do — not that, but as to what he would recom- mend that America should do — in the event of hostilities, and to tell, to communicate, that to Trotzky, Lenine, and the soviet powers. Then the Brest conference failed; and now I shall ask the in- dulgence of the committee for a divergence upon the actual situation at Brest. Senator Xei^ox. That was the first Brest conference that failed; but the one that succeeded the advance of the German Army up to within 50 miles of Petrograd did not fail. That continued. Mr. RoBiKS. Let us see just what Senator Nelson. What was the gap between the two, when the first negotiation took place and the final treaty? Mr. Robins. There was no gap, Senator. Senator Nelson. What was the period of time between the two ? Mr. Robins. It must have been something like seven days after- wards — when Trotzky had come back and the next mission was sent forward Senator Nelson. No ; I inean when they first opened the negotia- tion with the Germans at Brest, and then it was postponed, and in the meantime the Germans advanced to within 50 miles of Petrograd, and then they made a treaty. Mr. Robins. You will find on investigation. Senator, that that is not a correct statement of the facts. Senator Overman. Go ahead and state the facts. Senator Nelson. What are the facts? INIr. Robins. I will try to. Senator A'elsgn. When did the negotiations open at Brest- Litovsk ? Mr. Robins. Some time in December. I have not the exact date, but it can be determined. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 791 Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. KoBiNS. It was some time in December. Then they opened the negotiation and there was no advance of German armies after that time during the conference, and there was no advance of the German armies until after the 11th of February, when negotiations had defi- nitely failed. Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. EoBiNs. Then the advance of the German armies began and tlie soviet sent another mission to Brest to sign the treaty, the final terms. Senator Nelson. That is what I had reference to. Between the prior negotiations and the final treaty to which you refer occurred the German advance to within 50 miles of Petrograd. Mr. EoBiNS. That is not the fact. Senator Nelson. I mean from the time the first negotiation began until the final treaty was made, of Brest-Litovsk ; between those two periods ? Mr. Robins. Well, Senator, we may be meaning exactly the same thing. Let us see if 'n e are. When negotiations at Brest began there was perfect agreement between Lenine and Trotzky, if I know the facts in relation to the situation. That was to be a negotiation for a democratic peace, a general peace. Later, when the allies had refused to have anything to do with that conference, then an effort was made for a democratic peace with Germany only — that is, the central powers and Turkey — and Germany comes out along in the laat of December — the 26th of December, 1918, I believe — with a statement from the conferees of the central powers at Brest, accepting in general terms democratic peace; no annexa- tions, no indemnities, self-determination of nationalities — a pure camouflage. As soon as the soviet commission goes back to Brest after a recess, expecting to sign that kind of terms, the Germans come out with specific terms. . Senator Steeling. That was after the seven-day recess of which you speak? Mr. "Robins. Yes, Senatoi. And then these German terms are now perfectly clear ; annexation perfectly clear, indemnities, and no per- mission at all of self-determination, except in that camouflage of words. What the German powers expected was that the condition of the economic life of Russjia and the necessities for peace upon this so-called soviet government would force them to accept the general words of the first statement as an agreement for democratic peace, and then for the specific terms accept a specific treaty which was a betrayal of everything that had been stated in the peace proclama- tion of the soviet. Instead of that, Lenine and Trotzky both spoke words of the first statement as an agreement for democratic peace, and the purposes of the iraperialistic Gerinan robbers, and every soviet paper in Russia published editorials containing bitter denunci- ations of the central powers, and called on the comrades in Vienna and Berlin not to allow the German military masters to take advan- tage of Russia's condition and force an imperialistic peace, and so on. Trotzky and Lenine at this point divided, and the first division that had occurred m their leadership since the new revolution occurred at that time. Trotzky believed that he could beat the German mill- 792 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. tarists at Brest by an appeal to German workingmen at Berlin and Vienna, or at least acted as if he did. I think he believed that he could beat the Germans on this sort of a proposition: "I will go there and I will make a statement and say that we came for honest democratic peace. Now, you German autocrats change from democratic peace to the world to an imperialistic robbers' peace for Russia, and we will not agree to that, and now I refuse your imperial- istic peace treaty. The war is over, but we will make no treaty of peace with you." And he said in that statement, " German im- perialism is trying to carve its will with the sword upon the bodies of living nations " ; referring to Esthonia, Livonia, and Courland, etc. Lenine, who is an extraordinary realist at points of active policy, said, " You are mistaken. You think that the German Army will re- fuse to march against nonresistant and revolutionary Eussia. That is all bunk. The German Army will march. " You think that the comrades in Berlin and Vienna will rebel against their masters. Nothing doing. The revolutionary spirit is not developed far enough. They will rebel, but it will be later. "The thing to do is to accept a separate peace at Brest." Trotzky says " No." Lenine said, " If you do not, you will have to make a worse peace later oa, because there will not be any power in soviet Eussia that can resist the German military advance on Eus- sia. Our economic and military situation is such that we can not resist now." May I diverge a moment here ? The military situation in Eussia, aside from the paralysis of the economic arm, has another element worthy of consideration, tSenators. You have heard of the killing of officers by the soldiers and all that is said to have been done in the terrible break up of the morale, and the other practices, almost with- out a parallel, except that the same story was written in the French revolution. There was a reason for this terrible condition in the army. When the revolution came over there opened a cleavage that was very natural and understandable between the leisure class, privi- leged officers, and the workingmen and peasant soldiers in the Eus- sian Army. There was the officer class, who were selected from the privileged classes, and after being specially selected were educated in the military schools, drilled in a brutal system of discipline, and trained in the departments of arms that they were going to serve in; selected, moreover, under a careful espionage system, after observa- tion for some years to determine that they were thoroughly loyal and could be trusted by the government of the Czar not to engage in any revolutionary enterprise, and to serve faithfully in his armies. When they came back from military service they were to live in ease and comfort afterward',, upon the fruits of the labor of the workmen and the peasants. As soon as the revolution came over in the army there opened at once a cleavage between officers and soldiers, and the officers saw in the success of the ]-evolution the loss of all they had been taught to fight for, and even what they now possessed, while the common soldiers saw in the success of the revolution all that they had desired and prayed for — land, liberty, and peace. The officer saw himself deprived of his propiirty and expectations, and the soldier saw him- self taking the land possibly of his own commanding officer, both BOLSHKVIK PBOPAGANDA. 793 having come from tlie same community. There were brilliant ex- ceptions — officers who would die for the revolution even at personal hazzard of their property and soldiers that supported their officers faithfully to the end. But the great general fact was this change between officers and men as a class. The fact is that in that situa- tion there was this cleavage, that the officer mistrusted the soldier and the soldier mistrusted the officer, and anyone who dealt with the actual situation and heard the stories of both, knew that there would be no array in Rus'iia worth the name again until a revolutionary army with revolutionary soldiers and revolutionary officers, fighting to maintain the revolution, would reestablish a morale and a united fighting front. It was practically impossible to bring back the old regime and get the rifles from the workingmen and peasants and build an army in the old way. Thex'e was no army. The mass of the folks and soldiers were in the Soviets. We all linew that, and we knew that the economic situation made a weak fighting front. It was the need and desire of the allies, which was perfectly proper, to have a strong fighting front, but that was an impracticability. We knew that to hold the front was all that was left in Russia. So Lenine capitalized the facts of the situation and made the statement^ "We must accept the Brest peace." Trotzky said, "No." Trotzky had the advantag,'e of the situation, and Lenine, as he was the chair- man of the Peace Commission and his plan seemed more of a true revolutionary program, refused to use his influence in the executive committee, saying, " I do not believe in his plan. Let him try it." Trotzky went back to Brest and made his historic statement denounc- ing Gen. Hoffman, Count Czernin, von Kuhlman, and his crowds turned his back on the conference, returjied to Petrograd and sulked and opposed the ratification of the peace at Moscow. Senator Nelson. What was the nature of the final treaty at Brest Litovsk ? Mr. EoBiNs. We will get to that. As soon as Trotzky left Brest. the German forces did not even wait for the necessary days agreed on in the armistice, but advanced and continued to advance right away on all fionts, and the Eussian army crumpled in front of it, as was expected; and then a courageous revolutionary army — red guards and sailors — advanced. However brutal it may have been, it was composed of men who knew how to die; and one thing I found in Russia, the only ones that knew how to die were the red guard. It did Jmow how to die, whatever else it was. These Bolshe- vik soldiers went forward to meet the advance, and they were over- whelmed and passed by the fleeing old army, rotten to the core. Then, in view of the confusion, and the fact that there was no effective resistance, Lenine takes full command of the situation. Trotzky sulks, ])asses from the scene, and for a period Lenine is in command of the show. He orders the signing of the peace on Ger- man terms, and a new commission is appointed to go to Brest. They went there and signed the peace, having made a statement that they would not look at the German terms ; that it was a peace at the point of the bayonet. They signed the peace and came back, and a proclamation was issued in relation to the situation. Lenine then calls a meeting of the fourth all-Russian soviet, calls il to meet in Moscow to consider ratification of the Brest peace. 794 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. From that time on the leadership and command were in the hands of Lenine. Lenine had actual control of the Russian situation. For myself, I never had any doubt as to where the new power was in Russia after that. Trotzlcy opposed, and Karolyn opposed, and a group of the Bol- shevik leaders and commissars opposed this fourth all-Russian soviet. They opposed it because, they said, " If you ctill a soviet like this in this terrible hour of German menace and reaction, the revolution will be destroyed." Lenine says, " No; we will call it." " Where? " ■" Moscow." " Call it in Moscow, the heart of the reaction, the heart of the old order! Why, you can not hope to have it in Moscow." " We will hold it in Moscow," says Lenine. "Abandon Petrograd, the imperial city? " " Yes," says Lenine. " It is a foolish city, anyhow. It was built by Peter the Great just because he wanted to. It has no economic social relationship to Russian national life. Moscow is the economic heart of Russia." So the Russian soviet met in Moscow. There was all lands of con- fusion. The 5th of March came. Prior to this time, in the confusion that followed the Brest-Li to vsk treaty all kinds of confusion was in the air. It was said the soviet government had sold out to Germany, that the soviet government intended for Germany to come in, and that the soviet government was to arrange to deliver over Petrograd and Moscow. You heard all sorts of rumors and impossible things. During this time I had been trying to help the American interests in Russia and to keep the allied representatives in Russia. It was perfectly apparent. Senators, that the German program in Russia was to drive the allies out. They wanted to get the allies out and stop all idea of economic cooperation with America, America being thought of the most favorably of the foreign nations in Russia by reason of our democratic traditions. When Germany had accomplished this, then Russia would lie prostrate in the hands of German economic con- trol, regardless of what the soviet thought or did. Mirbach was there to get the allies out and to get hold of the Russian resources and raw materials. I want to refer now for a moment to German propaganda. One side says that it is a perfectly honest situation all the way through ; that it is all sincere revolutionist. The other says that it is a corrupt German agent and military situation all the way through. Both are wrong. That there were German agents and German money in the Bolshevik revolution there is not any doubt. But, Senators, that con- dition had been in Russia for better than 20 years. I had part of the records of the old secret police in my possession while in Moscow. They w«re in my hands for some weeks, and I had them all trans- lated, and it showed, in part, the relation that Germany had to propa- ganda in Russia. I wanted to know the situation so that I could stand on my feet with some reasonable intelligence, and this is what I found : that German agents and German money had been working in Russia for 20 years vigorously in two groups utterly unconnected in Russia, both taking orders from the German secret service in Berlin, one working with the extreme left and the other the extreme right. One favored revolution and the other favored the autocracy. I cared more about the radical group, because that was the group I had to expect to deal with. The old order was gone. In the course of my ■BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 795 investigation it de\eloped that a general strike had been called in Russia — in Moscow and Petrograd — just before the mobilization in 1914. It was suppressed by the vigorous action of the Cossack soldiers «nder the Czar. But before it was suppressed evidence was received by the old secret police of the Czar that a million marks had been spent by German agents through sincere revolutionists to foment this strike. I paid particular attention to the radical situation, because I did not have any too much time, and spent it where most useful. The German method in handling the radical situation was to find usually some woman — it happened in so' many cases that it seemed that that was the general rule, to use a woman, some woman — of the aristocratic group who had a city palace somewhere on the Neva in Petrograd or on a Moscow boulevard, who had fallen upon impecunious times finan- 'cially, and was willing to serve Germany, possibly not always dis- iclosiag all the circumstances. Then this person would call a meet- ing of a circle of revolutionists in her home between midnight and ■1 o'clock in the morning, and they would meet and discuss the revo- lution, and this woman, after some impassioned appeal, when the}? talked about the presence of the terror and the misery of the people, -would break into tears and would say, " What can I do for poor Eussia? " She could not do anything but give money to the revo iutionists; and so she gave money. They felt that this Avas a con- verted Russian who was now turning toward revolutionary propa- ganda, but they were really using German money. That was the method by which they ran the show. When the mobilization succeeded in 1914, the German military autocracy began working in its own fashion with the extreme left and with the extreme right in Eussia, and letting each develop, to see which was the more successful. That brings us to the March revolution. Now, there were two forces working for revolution in March. One force. Senators, though brutal, was a square and honest revolutionary force, and the other was a German plot for the pur- pose of disorganizing Eussia. At this time there was conflict be- tween the two groups of German agents in Eussia. The German group that worked with the extreme left insisted that the best interest •of Germany was to work for the disorganization of the Eussian front by revolution in Eussia. The group that worked through the autoc- racy said that the best interest of Germany was to work with Eazputin •and the Czarina and that the Czar could be brought to make a sepa- rate peace with the Kaiser, and I fovmd many intelligent people who helieved that if the March revolution had not come over when it did the Czar would have made a separate peace with Germany within 30 ■days. I do not know whether that is true. But they said it was. Certainly Eazputin had been bought and changed his policy between December and the middle of January, 1917. It was certain that the Czarina was at all times friendly to the German interest. It is cer- tain that German influence had increased in the court; that it had been powerful enough at one time to secure the appointment of Von Stiirmer, a (Jermancphile. It was certain that the German power was gaining in Eussia. . As soon as the Kerensky government came into power and tried to support the allied cause, the German propaganda began as usual at 796 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. the extreme right and the extreme left to work for confusion. To the rich Russians they said, '-'You are against this revolution; we must have back the Czar." To the revolutionary workingmen they said, " Why don't yoa have a real revolution and get rid of the bourgeoisie and get the land? Why don't you join the Bolsheviki? " And so they were taking advantage of every situation to accomplish their work. When the Soviet-Bolshevist revolution came over, it came over much more successfully than the Germans expected, if I am any judge, and within two weeks, instead of creating civil war as they had expected, and simply have Kerehsky fighting here and in charge of some cities, and Bolshevists fighting there and in charge of some cities, there was a complete disorganization of Kerensky's power, a reorganization behind the vital Soviets, and Bolshevism swept the whole of Russia, with Kerensky out entirely; and the Germans now found themselves faced with an army that is beginning to throw into the German and the Austrian Army the culture of the soviet. In other words, this poison gas that the Germans had blown into Russia and had aided in Russia for the purpose of breaking Russian morale is now being blown back into the-Central Empires' armies, and it endangers their morale, and there begins at once a vigorous German activity against the soviet. What was its form? Its first form was to organize the anarchist groups of Russia — and I don't want to include all anarchists. There are sincere anarchists, as there are sin- cere crazy men everywhere — everywhere in all cults. We might as well be honest with ourselves. There were perfectly sincere an- archists and perfectly designing gi'oups in anarchist clubs, men who, because of their new activity, I had to follow and find out about ; and I sent the best men I had to Kronstadt, and I found that men who two weeks before had neither cause nor means now had a cause and plenty of money, were planning an all-Russian anarchist conferencft and regime, and the disorganization of the Soviets. They criticized the Soviets as being without true proletarian ruthlessness, and said that the anarchists, if given power, would do the job of robbing the robbers much better than the Bolsheviks. One of their methods of ap- proach was to attack the allied embassies and try to drive them out of Russia, to forward as much as possible the idea of the thief and the murderer, and the German agent in the soviet, and at the same time to undermine the soviet. What was their method? Their method was to get together little groups and hold meetings and denounce America; pass resolutions against the American ambassador, against our action in relation to Bergman and Emma Goldman and Mooney ; capitalize every one of the economic situations or political situations that were dangerous or difficult in this country. Senator Stepling. Do j'ou say that this was confined to the an- archistic groups alone? Mr. Robins. Yes ; I should say that you could mark every line of it by the anarchistic group. People went into it who were not an- archists, but your leadership was ; and resolutions were finally pas.sed denouncing the American ambassador, saying that they were going to hold him personally responsible. I learned of this circumstance. Senator Steeling. Did that group that passed such a resolution as that sail under the name of tlie anarchistic group? ' BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 797 ! Mr. Robins. Absolutely. -Senator Sterling. And not as Bolshevik! ? i Mr. EoBiNS. Not at all. The anarchistic group of Kronstadt, it 'was, and they came to me and said that they were anarchists. A delegatibn came to the American Embassy, as the American ambas- sador will tell you. Let me say this in relation to this nationalization of women stuff, and the Saratov soviet that was supposed to ha^e passed that resolution. The confusion is such that I do not know whether they passed it or not. It was claimed they did, and I accepted the fact that they had, but I have heard since that they did not, but it Tvas passed by an anarchist group that had gotten control for the mo- ment of a local soviet; and it was passed in my judgment for the pvir- pose it served, of discrediting the Russian revolutionary situation. That is either a fact or is not a fact, as investigation will prove. But they were active in this way. One day, the 1st of January I think it is, I am at the embassy when the ambassador tells me of circum- stances that evidently have created considerable concern in the embassy — not necessarily upon the part of the ambassador. The ambassador worked harder, stayed longer, met the situation with more steadiness, in my judgment, than any other ambassador there. That, I think, is true of the American ambassador, and will be a part of the history of the situation. The story was this: The em- bassy was called up on the telephone that morning by a woman who said that she knew of something of very great interest to the American Embassy, and she will not come to the American Embassy to tell them, because she will be murdered if she does, but she asks that accredited representatives go down to meet her at a certain street comer. Accredited representatives went down. The com- mercial attache, Huntington, I think, and the private secretary of the ambassador, Mr. Johnston, went down. They met her on the street. This woman tells this tale in substance : " Last night, while entertaining some friends in my home, I was called to the door. I "went out and a sailor was there, a man whom I had befriended some time previously. He had some very fine wine to sell me at a ridiculously cheap price. I said to him, ' How can you afford to sell wine like that so cheaply,' and he said, 'That is wine that I got when we looted the Italian embassy,' " and she told him that she did not want to buy it, and he said that there was a lot more to be liad ; that they were going to get plenty more. He said, " The anarchists are going to blow up the American Embassy to-night, and we are going to have the right to loot their stores, and they have lots of them. There is plenty of whisky and wine there." She told him that she would not buy the stuff and he went away, but she could not sleep that night because of this preying upon her mind. She meets these men on the street corner. That is a situation that is passed to me. I believed it to be just what I think now it was, German agent stuff. The woman happens •to be the divorced wife of Proctor, of Proctor & Gamble, of Cin- cinnati, and was at that particular hour in the secret service records of three of the allied nations as a German agent in Russia. IVhen they tell me that the embassy is going to be blown up I said I did not think so, and as evidence of my good faith I said that I "Would stay there that night, and I stayed uiere until 1 o'clock and 798 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. then went to my hotel, but nothing developed, of course. Th& anarchistic development had gotten to the point where I was con- cerned about it, as every one was. Everything was more or less m a flux, and in that terrible hour I wanted to know whether the anarchists who were definitely German agents were permitted by the Soviets to continue their propaganda under cover. Is Smolny letting them do this thing? Well, certain men are crooks and certain men are good men, and they get into all places, and I asked myself, what is the real position at Smolny. I went down there and I talked with Bouch Bruevitch, and I said to him : " There is a good deal of debate here as to where God is (used in the sense of power in Eussia) , whether he is in Smolnj' or with this bunch of anarchists, and I want to know. I want to know where the power is in this community. I am saying one thing, and there are those who say that I am not relating the facts, and that you are in with this Ger- man situation in this anarchist game, and the anarchist game is for driving the allies out of Russia ; I am settled on that. Are you with it or not? " I said to him, " Here is the test. The headquarters of the iinarchists; you Iniow- perfectly well where it is; I can name the place. Will you go down and raid it? If you will, you will find contra- band there, where I happen to know of so many cases of sugar, so many pairs of shoes, and all sorts of other things. You raid that and you will find ample reason for raiding it as soon as you raid it. You raid that and it will be a test of the situation. I would like to have you do that, but do not use the name of the American ambassador or my name." That night a platoon of soldiers and a machine-gun crew, with tanks, went down and surrounded that place and broke into it. They resisted with hand grenades and guns, and the anarchist leader of the group was shot and taken to a hotel on a stretcher. The next morning the Busa Verstnik, the anarchist organ, in the same column where it had a few days be- fore the bitter resolution denouncing the American ambassador for being an imperialist because of what we did to Bergman, and so on — had a few sticks like this : " Yesterday evening, at night, the thieves and murderers of Smolny surrounded our headquarters, the anarchist club number so and so, shot our honored leader and stole our supplies. We live under a hell of a proletarian government." I took that paper and laid it on the desk of the American ambas- sador as an evidence of how much Smolny feared the anarchists and whether they cooperated with them or not. Senator Steeling. What did the Bolshevists do, if anything^ toward suppressing that anarchist paper? Mr. EoBiNS. They ultimately suppressed it, but not then. Here was the situation in that regard. All of the revolutionary groups were implicated in the revolution. For instance, in Moscow the anarchist club started under the revolution in 1917 — that was finally cleaned out by the soviet — and neither the Duma nor the Kererisky government tried to resist it, because it had been implicated in helping in the start of the revolution. You know how thieves and mur- derers line up with a revolutionary situation and afterwards some- times become leaders. It is a well-known revolutionary result. Under these circumstances, uncertainty growing in Petrograd about the situation, it finally becomes apparent that the allied enr- BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGAITDA. 79 a bassies were going to leave by reason of the German advance. The German advance still goes on and is rumored to be going on much faster, and all that sort of thing. Prior to this time the question of the American interests remaining in Eussia was of real concern to. the American ambassador and myself. We wanted to stay there and play the hand out and rewin it if it was possible. We did not see any gain in abandoning it and running away. Investigation was made of a place that might serve in the situation, and Vologda was selected because transportation was good, opening to Archangel and Petrogi'ad and Moscow and Siberia and Vladivostok and Finland; communication was good, telegraph to Archangel, wireless to Mur- mansk, and the English controlled the cable to London; and if we lost the Finnish cable, and if we lost Vladivostok, connections were still open. Vologda was far enough north, at least, to be out of range of any expected German advance. Petrograd could fall and Moscow could fall and Vologda would still be free. We investigated thor- oughly and found it a small rural timber- working community, where there had been very little riot or effect of revolution. The Duma was gone, but some man who had been in charge of the Duma was in an official position with the soviet. Senator Steei.ing. What was the name of the leader of the Duma ?' Mr. Robins. It is in the record. It is not in my mind now. I then went to Lenine and said, " Will you aid in getting safe transporta- tion to the American embassy train and in protecting and organizing the Volodga support behind the American ambassador ? " He said he would. A special train was arranged. It was arranged that the ambassador should go out, and a number of my mission and a special car of the mission should be attached to the train, as the American Eed Cross had reasonable credit throughout the situation^ and might be of use in case of attack at any point. I was to remain in Petrograd. That was the feeling and the purpose and the under- standing up to the evening of the 26th of February. None of my stuff was packed in the Hotel Europe, though every other person's, was. Senator Nelson. The 26th of what month ? Mr. EoBiNS. February, 1918. I go down to the station at Nichol- aievsky and find .the train there, but some trouble about it starting, and I talk to some of the authorities and find out that the train has been definitely stopped — ^that the commission of safety of Petrograd has ordered the train stopped — for the following reasons, as so stated to me : The German advance is not nearly so imminent as has been said, and if the American embassy and the American ambassador leave, it will excite the people, and counter-revolutionists will take charge of the situation and the revolution may be overthrown. I said, " That train ought to go. You have agreed to do it and it should go." I get no results. There was nothing stirring at all. I go to Lenine. He is sitting at his desk with the whole task in his hands, and I say to him something like this, " Commissioner, you said this train should go. The train is stopped, and I understand you have agreed it should be stopped. I agree absolutely that there is no immediate danger of the fall of Petrograd. I do not share that thought at all. I know that there is certain danger in the city, and certain reactionary elements will use the going of the;Aim6ricaiii 800 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. Embassy in favor of overturning the Soviets and establishing either anarchy or the old order, vehichever may come to suit them; but, Commissioner, it is worse to keep that train there than to send it out. You know better than I do that the old control in the bar- racks has passed, you have had absolute control of these barraclcs ever since the November revolution, and now you have not. There is a division in the barracks, and you know as well as I do that some of these groups are about to act on their own responsibility, and if they go down there and loot the American Embassy or want to kill the ambassador, you may not be able to protect it or him, and then there would be a blot on the soviet in Russia from which it would never recover. I ask you to send this train out, and send it under guard," and he orders that train sent. He orders a guard to see it get out if any trouble starts down there to keep it from going. I have the original letter that he wrote that gives full credit to the stationing of the ambassador at Vologda, ordering the soviet of Vologda to give to the Ambassador and every representa- tive of the American Embassy every possible cooperation and pro- tection. On that letter the headquarters were secured. After a time the ccwnfort of the embassy was established, and as soon as that was done I came back to Petrograd. On the 5th of March I am in Petrograd. I am going up to see about some of our stores. We have now something like 400,000 cans of condensed milk, which I have kept through a number of weeks of want and misery — kept even when children were dying for want of milk — because I knew that between March and May when the new supply would come would be the real strain, and Bolshevik rifle and machine-gun men had prevented riots of mothers from getting that milk. That was the kind of power they exercised in Petrograd, and they did what they said they would do. We had the milk. I am going up there to Smolny to see about the change of guards. Trotzky said to me, " Do you want to prevent the Brest peace from being ratified ? " I said, " There is nothing that I wanted so much to do as that." He said, " You can do it." I laughed and said, " You have always been against the Brest peace, but Lenine is the other way; and franldy. Commissioner, Lenine is running this show." He says, " You are mis- taken. Lenine realizes that the threat of the German advance is so great that if he can get economic cooperation and military support from the allies he will refuse the Brest peace, retire, if necessary, from both Petrograd and Moscow to Ekaterinberg, reestablish the front in the Urals, and fight with allied support against the Germans." Senator Steblin g. This was Trotsky stating what Lenine would do ? Mr. EoBiNS. Yes ; and he in agreement with it. That was in entire agreement with my representation made to him through the ambassa- dor on the 1st or 2d of January, better than two months before, that if they got to the place where they would really fight, we would help. I said to him, " Commissioner, that is the most important statement that has been made to me in this situation. Will you put that in writing ? " He said, " You want me to give you my life, don't you ? " I said, " No ; but I want something specific. I do not ask you to sign it. You make a written statement of your specific in- quiry, interrogatories to the American Government, and that with affirmative response these things will take place, and after writing BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 801 arrange that Lenine will see me and that he will agree to this, which is counter to what I have had in mind as Lenine's position, arrange that a fourth person, my confidential Eussian secretary, whom you know and I know, Mr. Alexander Gumberg, shall be with me, and I will act on that." I go back at 4 o'clock. In Trotsky's office is handed me this original document in Eussian. We then go down to Lenine's office. We then hold a conference upon this document. It is explained, translated, stated what will be done. I am satisfied for the hour of the genuineness of the position, that they will act in this way, or am sufficiently satisfied to act, and I leave there and go to the British commissioner, E. H. Bruce Lockhart. Now 1 digress again. When William B. Thompson left Eussia in November, 1917, shortly after the Bolshevik revolution, he left because being so involved in the Kerensky service and because of what was said in regard to him in the Bolsheviki papers, as being the representative of Wall Street and trying to get the trans-Siberian for the Morgans and copper interests for himself, and other stuff of that kind, it was wise for him to leave and to cooperate at the other end. He left unwillingly, and I wish to bear this testimony, that he looked down machine guns and did not tremble, and he did not have to do it. He was not called upon at that moment to take risks, but he took them freely. He came out. He stopped in London. He saw a number of people. He saw Lloyd-George for two hours. Col. Thompson is not a talker, but he must have gotten it across. That evening Lloyd-George sent through his private secretary a telegram to E. H. Bruce Lockhart, who was in the lake region in Scotland rest- ing after seven years in Eussia, during four of which he was consul general of the British Government at Moscow — 36 or so years old, a Scotchman with a perfectly competent head on his shoulders, who spoke Eussian fluently, read and understood the language, and under- stood the people after seven years of association. I saw the tele- gram sent by Mr. George's secretary, as alleged, and believe it to be true. Mr. Lockhart then told me that the premier had said to him something in substance like this : " I have just had a most surprising talk with an American Eed Cross colonel named Thomp- son, who tells me of the Eussian situation. I do not know whether he is right, but I Iniow that our people are wrong. They have missed the situation. You are being sent as special commis- sioner to Eussia, with power. A ship will be ready to take you to Stockholm as soon as you are ready, and you will be able to select- your staff and have ample resources. I want you to find a man there named Eobins, who was put in command by this man Thompson. Find out what he is doing with this soviet government. Look it over carefully. If you think what he is doing is sound, do for Britain what he is trying to do for America. That seems, on the whole, the best lookout on this complex situation; but you are given liberty. Go to it." He arrived in Petrograd. A member from the British Embassy came to me and said : " There is an Englishman here, just arrived, who has been in Eussia, and comes back with some relation to the Government who wants to have you for dinner." I said: "No; I am too busy. I have wasted all of my time at the British Embassy that I expect to waste there. I know your policy; it- is perfectly 85723—19 51 802 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. definite, and I won't go." Then he told me some more things about the special power that this man had, and I said, " I will go " ; and I M^ent, and we had dinner, and after dinner we separated together, and he began talking close, and I began fencing. I suppose his guard was up, and so was mine. It was a diificult situation. All sorts of criticism had run across one line and another. I did not laiow his purposes. Finally, in the twist of the things, he showed me his credentials, and it was perfectly clear that he then repre- sented the power of the British Government in the situation. I said to him: " Now, I want to ask you a question,, Mr. Lockhart. Are you free? You can not handle this Russian story from Down- ing Street or anywhere else. It is too much of an original outdoor situation that you have got to shift from day to day. No man knows it 12 hours ahead. All I am trying to do is something that is useful and -right while we do it, and not prejudge the future." He said: " I am absolutely free." I then took him over to my office, and we opened up everything I had of a documental^ nature, and went through the whole situation with all its light and shadow and every- thing else that I knew. The next morning we went out to Smolny. He had a great advantage because he speaks and knows the Russian language and had many lines of Russian contact. When we were coming back we talked together, and I said to him, " I wish you would see some of the 7 per cent. You could not have been consul general at Moscow for four years without loiowing a lot of them. They will tell you an absolutely different story from what I tell you. I think I am right in my judgment and am acting on it. The life of the mission and my own life and supplies here are being dealt with on that basis, on the basis that this thing is an international social revolutionary situation opposed to all governments, but more opposed right now, because it is nearer to them, to the German militarists than anything else, and that we can do business with them on that basis. Now, they will tell you an entirely different story. I am Avilling to risk this, Mr. Commissioner Lockhart, because I do not want to be starting and stopping two weeks later; I would rather you never started. This is rough water; this is stormy weather; the boat rocks a lot, and a man has to know why he knows what he knows or think he does before he can play in this hand." I said to him, "Another thing, you are going across lines of eco- nomic interest in this play, commissioner. You will hear it said that I am the representative of Wall Street" — which. Senator, would make Wall Street turn over. " You will hear it said that I am the representative of Wall Street ; that I am the servant of Wil- liam B. Thompson to get Altai copper for him ; that I have already got 500,000 acres of the best timber land in Russia for myself ; that I have already copped off the Trans-Siberian Railway ; that they have given me a monopoly of the platinum of Russia ; that this explains my working with the soviet." AH that was said. You could get forged documents showing all these charges and others to be true. There were more forged papers of one kind and another in Russia than ever before in human history. There were forgery mills of the old Okhrana, the secret police, forged against the revolutionists, and of the revolutionists forged against the Okhrana. Passports and letters were forged in great numbers. You could not beat it in a million BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA, 803 years. I could prove anything by all the documents you want. I said, " You will hear that talk. Now, I do not think it is true, Com- missioner, but let us assume it is true. Let us assume that I am here to capture Kussia for Wall Street and American business men. Let us assume that you are a British wolf and I am an American wolf, and that when this war is over we are going to eat each other up for the Eussian market; let us do so in perfectly frank, man fashion, but let us assume at the same time that we are fairly intelligent wolves, and that we know that if we do not hunt together in this hour the German wolf will eat us both up, and then let us go to work." He left me, and he came back, and he said, " You told the truth. They sing a different song, just as opposite as it is possible to be; but I believe your song, and I am going to work that way " ; and from that time in January until I left Russia, the British high commis- sioner and myself were in absolute agreement on every move. We ate breakfast together every morning. As soon as I left Lenine and Trotzky on the afternoon of the 5th cf March I went to the British commissioner, presented my paper^ and said, "What do you think of. it? You have been talking with Trotzky every day." Up to that time he had never talked with Lenine. " Do you think it is worth dealing with ? " He said, " I do. I have sent cables in relation to it " ; and he then sent a cable, written on British Embassy stationery, which I huve, advocating exactly what I advocated, only going further than I would have gone or did go in my statement at the time. I left him. Harold Williams was seen, conservative correspondent for the London Conservative Daily Chronicle and secret information agent for the British Foreign Office, an intelligent, able, honest, and patriotic Englishman who had lived in Russia i2 years and has written one of the best books ever written on Russia, who had married Madam Turcova, a Russian intelligentsia of some position and prop- erty,: a noble and splendid woman, but in the Kerensky setting, in the Duma setting, bitterly hostile to the Bolsheviki in common with many other sincere and splendid people. Harold Williams had been against the whole Bolshevik program at all points ; had denounced it in unineasured terms, as those of you who have read his cables know. He had come to me, criticizing my position, and there had passed between us a conversation that ran in measure after this fashion : " Now, you have said some rather unpleasant things, but this is rather a bad time for allied representatives in Russia to quarrel with each other. You went down to Kief and worked with the Ukrainian rada because they were respectable,, nice, pleasant people, and worked with them against the criminal, wicked Red Guard, as it was supposed. You helped to get American and French and English officers down there to cooperate with the Ukrainian rada. You helped to get the 130,000,000 francs that were paid to the Ukrainian rada about four days before it sold out, body, boots, and breeches, to the central pow- ers, opened the front, and let in German rifles. I did not say when that development came across that you were an enemy of the allies or a, German agent, or that you were being buncoed by the Ukrainian rada. I said you had made a bad guess, but that you were a perfectly sincere and patriotic man. Then, when you went down to Rostov on 804 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. the Don, and worked with Kaledines and Korniloff — ^Kaledines a sin- cere, courageous, and patriotic Cossack officer, in my judgment the best man in the military circle in Russia, but seeing in the terms of the old order, which he had a perfect right to do, and had I been raised as he was raised I probably would have seen the same way — you believed and he believed that his Cossack soldiers would fight with him, and you started from the Don to come to Moscow, and you got 30 milos, and your troops began to leave you, and the peasants rose with their rifles and opposed your advance ; nothing from Moscow, but the local peasants were against you ; and you heard of an uprising in the Don and that Rostov had been taken by the soviet, und you fled back there, and Kaledines, when he found that his soldiers had abandoned him imder the culture of the soviet and the call of the soviet, went on his porch and blew his brains out — a courageous, patriotic, man who had guessed wrong and had promised what he could not perform, and in the sorrow and misery of his disillusionment he killed himself; and then you came away, after we had gotten implicated in a counter- revolutionary move. I did not say that you were an enemy of the allies- I simply said that you had made another bad guess. " Now, here I have been working day by day, dealing with this situ- ation or trying to do it ; evacuating copper, evacuating supplies, evac- uating the gold from the state bank, evacuating platinum from the state bank to Vologda. Some of that gold that we evacuated at that time finally got into the Czeoho-Slovak possession. You know it. You know how they got that gold and where it came from — from the state bank ; how it was gotten from the state bank to Vologda ; it was taken imder the Bolshevik frank and Bolshevik rifles, and I urged on them as an evidence of good faith to take it away, because there was danger that the Germans would get Petrograd and they would get that gold, and it was done." I said, " I am doing about as well as I can, and I know you are doing about as well as you can, and let us both of us do the best we can and not spend our time cursing each other " ; and he left me. He was told, " Here is the situation. What do you think about it ? " and I have got the autograph cable written by Harold Williams on the stationery of the British Embassy on the night of the 5th of March, dispatched to the premier, dispatched to the foreign office of Great Britain, dispatched to his paper, the Chron- icle, in which he says that after four months the only power in Rus- sia is the Bolshevik power ; that if they are supported at this point as recommended they will declare war against the Germans, that there will be a failure of the Brest-Litovsk ratification, in his judgment, and that that is the sound policy. I then went to the representative of the National City branch banks in Russia, R. R. Stevens, an able and competent and courageous man, who differs with me at many points, and has the same right to his opinion that I have to mine, but representing that $200,000,000 investment; and I, seeing or seeming to see what this thing meant, wanted to know what he thought about it. I did not know his mind before. I went to him, I presented it to him, and he dictated a cable; the carbon copy of the original I have, and the original I myself sent to Vanderlip, of the National City Bank, in New York, setting out exactly the same situation as had been agreed on with Lockhart and Williams and myself. BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. 805 I then went to the representative of the Associated Press in Russia, Charles Smith, a man of middle years, a conservative man — he had been far-eastern representative at Pekin for years ; an able, patient, courageous person, anti-Bolshevik in every fiber of- his system — and put it in front of him. I said, " I know that your instructions are against wiring policy. Here is a situation that I want to open to yoUjto see whether you want to do anything in relation to it," and he sent two cables in agreement with that position, and I have copies of the original cables sent by him. 1 then took the train and went to Vologda, and reported to the- American ambassador the situation, and the American ambassador sent two cables, portions of which two cables I have, given me bj' the ambassador, in line with that position — the position of assuring the soviet that if they would make war on Germany and refuse the ratification of the Brest-Litovsk peace, they would be aided and sup- ported, as far as we were able to aid and support, in the new front. I went then from there to Moscow, where the conference was to be held. Before I went to Moscow, and before I left to go to Vologda, I went back to see Lenine, and I said, " The general cooperation on this situation is better than I had supposed. I want more time. Com- missioner. It takes time to decode long cables like this and get an agreement. You have always dealt with America as though America would be separated from the allies. America is never separated from the allies. We are fighting and we will stand or fall together. Amer- ica would take no policy that England and France do not agree to, and it will take time to get that agreement." The conference was called, as you can see in the public papers at the time, for the 12th of March. This was the 5th or the morning of the 6th. The next day's issue of the Izvestija will show that the date of convening the fourth all-Russian Soviet had been changed to the 14th at the request of the minister-president, Lenine, in confer- ence with the executive committee. I think the reason the two days' -wttoniion was given was to give us time to answer. I went to Moscow. I got to Moscow, and they said : " There will nr t be any fourth all-Russian Soviet." Representatives of the allies there told me so. They said : " Don't you know that Lenine has absconded already to Finland ? " I said : " No, I did not know it." They said: "If he oame here he would not live 24 hours. He may put over stuff like that up in Petrograd, but there is nothing doing down here." I then prepared to investigate that conference. I wanted to know wliether it represented the workmen and peasants of Russia, or whether it was simply a group of red guards, and a packed confer- ence, which some of us are reasonably- familiar with. I have sat in tliem. I wanted to know what it really was, and I set about trying to know what it really was. Lenine came a day before the conference opened. I Avent to ses him. He said, "What have you heard from vour Government?" I said, "Nothing. What has Lockhart heard?" He said. "Exactly the same thing." He said, " You will not hear. Neither the Ameri- can Government nor any of the allied governments will cooperate, even against the Germans, with the workmen's and peasants' revolu- tionary government of Russia." Well, I smiled and said I thought 806 BOLSHEVIK tSOPAGANDA. diiferently. I said, " Commissioner, I am trying to find out about this assembly here. Some say that it is just Red Guards that you sent down here from Petrograd, and that you brought up from the Soviets you control in Moscow, and from Kharhov and Odessa, and, quite frankly, I am trying to know. I know a packed buncli, and I am going to try to find out what this is. I am trying to know because I am acting with my associates, risking our lives daily on the propo- sition one way, putting lots of material and supplies at issue. If the Germans are going to come in quickly and take Petrograd and Mos- cow, I am trying to know it. I want to know this whole situation.'' And I said to him, " Commissioner, I think you know that I will try to know it, whatever risk may be involved ; " and that rested back upon a personal relationship with Lenine at a time of great question, when they said that I was going to be shot, that I will speak of later if it is interesting; but he knew, I think, Senators, that I was not wholly concerned about whether I got out of Russia ; that I was con- cerned that while I was there I played the thing through from step to step, and that I did not take false rumors, and that I did not either fool myself or fool others if I could avoid it. He said, "What can I do?" I said, "Why, you could get me the credentials, or alleged credentials, of the delegates. I would like to have them. I would like to go over them with great care. My pur- pose will be to try to find out whether these credentials really came, from the communities that they pretend to come from or are alleged to come from. I am going to subject them to careful scrutiny; and I should like to have that as one element of my inquiry." He said, " I don't know ; I will see Smerdorff, who is the chairman of the executive committee." I had these credentials. I went over these credentials — three pieces of paper in some instances from three villages imited behind one delegate — with the paper and the finger marks and the headings and the whole lot of things that had every similitude of genuineness, in seeming, at least. They were subjected to investigation by a titled Russian on the one hand and my private secretary on the other, and agreed to as genuine credentials, in their judgment, as nearly as they could tell; and I believed that there were in that fourth all- Russian Soviet, gentlemen of the committee, delegates from as far east as Vladivostok, as far west as Smolensk, as far north as Mur- mansk, as far south as Odessa, and tiiat it was for the 93 per cent — absolutely nobody of the other group, but for the 93 per cent — as a class representation of the vast class mass in Russia, the most genuine assembly that had taken place in Russia up to that hour. The debate ran two days and two nights. Senator Sterling. How many were there in the assembly, Col. Robins ? Mr. Robins. I had 1,186 credentials. There were some 1,200 dele- gates or more. There were those whose credentials for one reason or another I did not get; group credentials, they claimed, in some in- stances. In this debate no one at any time ever spoke of the treaty of peace as anything but a shameful treaty, a robbers' treaty, a treaty at the point of the bayonet. Lenine spoke of it as the peace of Tilsit, as the peace of preparation, as necessary for revolutionary Russia to reor- & BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 807 ganize her economic life, rebuild her revolutionary army, when they would do against the German 'brigands what the Germans did against Napoleon. That was the program, but he did not give the whole program in his opening address. He laid the foundation for a situation that might move and change. There were seven organized parties in that convention. Six of those parties passed a vote against the ratification. They were minor parties. One party only supported ratification, and that was the Bolshevik party, the party of which Lenine was chief, and there was important defection in that party. Radek was writing brilliant editorials in the Izvestija against the peace. Trotzky was against the peace. Karolyn was against the peace, and a number of his asso- ciates were against the peace ; and the social revolutionists of the left, who had been indispensable to control of the soviet by the Bolshevik power up to that time, opposed the peace. Senator Sterling. Was Trotzky there ? Mr. EoBiNS. No, sir. He refused to come. He was sulking in Petrograd. About an hour before midnight on the second night of the con- ference Lenine was sitting on the platform; I was sitting on a step of the platform, and I looked around at this man, and he motioned to me. I went to him. He said, " What have you heard from your Gov- ernment ? " I said, " Nothing." I said, " Wliat has Lockhart heard ? " He said, " Nothing." He said, " I am now going to the platform and the peace will be ratified ; " and he went to the platform, and he made a speech of an hour and twenty-odd minutes or so, in which he outlined the economic condition, the military condition, the absolute necessity after the three years of economic waste and war for -the Russian peasant and workingman to have the means, even by a shame- ful peace, for the reorganization of life in Russia and the pro- tection of the revolution, as he said; and the peace was ratified by two and a half to one in that A'ote. Would you wish to stop now for the time being ? Senator Overman. I think we had better stop now for luncheon. (Thereupon, at 1.30 o'clock p. m. the subcommittee took a recess mitil 2.30 o'clock p. m.) AFTER RECESS. The subcommittee reconvened at 2.30 o'clock p. m., pursuant to the taking of the recess. TESTIMONY OF MR. RAYMOND ROBINS — Resumed. Senator Overman. The committee will come to order. Mr. Eobins, you may proceed without Senator Nelson. Mr. Robins. At your pleasure, Mr. Chairman. As soon as the ratification of the Brest peace by the fourth all- Russian soviet was confirmed, I then, so far as I had any influence in the situation, changed my relationship on this basis, that whereas before I had sought recognition of the Government as a de facto Gov- ernment, which seemed to me clearly to be desirable, I felt that the ratification of the Brest conference, whatever may have been the reasons for the ratification, or whoever may have been responsible 808 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. for its ratification, was a fact of such character that the allies could not be expected to recognize, even as de facto, the soviet government in Eussia. But that did not seem to preclude the possibility of eco- nomic cooperation or the control of raw materials, the furnishing of the economic mind that would direct Eussian economic develop- ment and open the markets of Eussia to America. I am one who, though a radical, believes that in feeding, clothing, and housing people you are doing a work of the very highest social consequence, and of great moral value, and I believe in the principle of private, and, if you please, capitalistic industry, and think it can defend itself on its own ground. What I saw there was this, that by reason of the Brest peace then more than at any other time there was a bitter resentment between the Eussian people and the German Government, and that therefore Count Mirbach's economic mission would probably fail, even though there might be agents of Germany in the soviet government, and that we should meet the pressure that was upon the soviet govern- ment and the Eussian people to furnish this economic mind. To that end I worked steadily with the cooperation and under the leadership and instruction of the American ambassador. The soviet government asked from the American Government, from the American ambassa- dor, the privilege of sending an economic mission to America under the guaranty of the government that there should be no propaganda, either en route or in America, and willing to make whatever pains or penalties were necessary to insure that situation. The ambassador telegraphed to me that he had asked for the privilege of the economic mission. But we never heard from the Government in relation to it; at least, I never heard from the ambassador directly in relation to it. This situation was this. You are familiar. Senators, with the dis- tinction between primary and secondary production, primary being the products of the fields and the forests and mines, the land lying outdoors. There are more uncultivated fertile acres, more untouched virgin forests, and more unmined mineral wealth, in what was the Eussian Empire than anywhere else in the world. The working population, 180,000,000, were producing those raw materials the world needs. If we should cooperate with them, we would have a great economic market for our secondary production, for our manu- factures, and the basis of contact that would ultimately mean the cultural, industrial, and economic cooperation and penetration on fair terms of Eussia by America and the allies, working through America, the same Germans have been carrying on for 20 years, under unfair terms, and were seeking to carry on through Count Mirbach at this time. To the end of getting this cooperation, and after discussion with the ambassador and the commercial attache of the American embassy, Mr. Huntington, a cable was sent by the embassy — that had been con- sidered, of course, by the ambassador, or it would not have been sent — which reads as follows [reading] : Am convinced by daily consideration and reconsideration of facts and events as tliey have occurred since you left Russia that Trotsky's astounding answer to Germany at Brest-Litovsk was uninfluenced by any consideration other than the purpose of international Socialism striving for world revolution. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 809 You may say that that was quite sufficient. I agree with you thor- oughly. But that was the fact; that was my judgment. [Eeading :] Every act of Bolshevik government is consistent with and supports this theory. Contrary theory of German control and influence no longer tenable. Great values for Allied cause in resulting situation depend on continuance of Bolshevik authority as long as possible. No other party will refrain from accepting German peace or so deeply stir internal forces opposed to German government. Now, why did I say that, Senator ? I said that because of the false view that was held by many, and carried abroad, in relation to the constituent assembly. The constituent assembly was controlled by Tchernoff. Tchernoff was its chairman, elected by an overwhelming majority in its first and only session. Tchernoff had been removed as commissioner of agriculture from the Kerensky government because of suspected German affiliations, and in the conference that decided on his removal Madam Breshkovsky and President Kerensky both agreed on the proposition. He now turns up chairman of the con- stituent assembly, and as such chairman practically indorses all the extreme radical program of the Bolsheviki, but says the Bolsheviki can not make peace with Germany. "We need peace; we can make peace. They are prevented from making peace by their formula of principles of self-determination, no annexations, and no indemnities, but we are not bound by this program; we can make peace." In other words, he pleaded the principle of quick peace, which was the principal desire of the War-weary Russians as a whole, and that was his reason for being supported against the Bolsheviki. So that when the constituent assembly was dismissed by Tchernoff some of us be- lieved that it was in the interests of the allies and against the quiclc German peace. Senator Oveeman. That dispatch is from whom and to whom ? Mr. EoBiNS. From myself to Col. Thompson. Senator Steeling. You say that was submitted to Ambassador Francis ? Mr. EoBiNS. Yes ; sent through him, and in the ambassador's cypher, through the Secretary of State. Mr. Humes. Just a moment. As I understand it, that, in effect, was a communication from you to Thompson that was communicated by the ambassador through the State Department, in order to insure its delivery to Col. Thompson ? Mr. EoBiNS. Quite true. What is the point ? Mr. Humes. I just wanted to have it clear in my mind whether it is an official communication from the ambassador as expressing his view, or only the transmittal of a communication from you to Col. Thompson. Mr. EoBiNS. Yes, but let it appear that no cypher cable could be sent by anybody in Eussia through the American Embassy that was counter to any definite policy of the embassy. [Eeading :] No other party will refrain from accepting German peace or so deeply stir internal forces opposed to German Government. Questions put to Trotzky by Kuhlman after his statement indicate Germany's disinclination to continue militai-y operations if satisfactory trade relations can be reestablished. For instance, Senator, the social revolutionists of the Left killed Mirbach. Did the Germans march into Moscow? They did not. Why ? Because they had found that dead Eussians and burned grain ^10 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. in the Ufaaine were of little value to the central powers ; and 1 pre- ferred by their methods to beat them to it, and it seemed possible in -the situation. That may have been a misjudgment or not. [Eead- ing:] Reestablishment of such relations vastly more valuable to central Empires than conquest of disorganized revolutionary Russian territory. Soviet organiza- -tions throughout all Russia representing entire laboring and peasant class vfill not readily submit to domination of German troops. As was proved then and has been proved constantly ever since. [Eeading :] This class may in time change leadership and policies but will not relinquish power without a struggle and certainly not to an invading imperialistic force. Germany therefore cannot control extensive resources by conquest. Any effort to force her terms of peace by hostilities will be an attack on Russian revolution :and will be met vigorously. Greatest rtiinger to Allied cause is reestablishment of German commercial relations which may result if Germany abandons hos- .tilities and Russia can not obtain American supplies and assistance. Revolu- tionary Russia having broken with German Imperialism and regarding other Allied governments as imperialistic will naturally turn to United States for commodities and supplies of non-military character for which she is willing to .exchange surplus metals, oil and other raw material vitally necessary to Ger- many's continued prosecution of the war. Conferences now being held with Bolshevik authorities who have expressed willingness to deal on this basis with United States and desire American assistance and cooperation in railway re- organization. Commercial attache at Embassy is conducting negotiations and Ambassador will strongly urge vigorous action by government. Would the ambassador have sent that if it had not been in agree- ment with what he thought was the situation ? Senator Overman. The point was made, is that an official telegram irom the ambassador ? Mr. EoBiNS. Not at all. It is not that. [Continuing reading:] Danger of some American supplies ultimately reaching Germany unworthy .•of consideration because supplies Russia needs from America less valuable to Germany than supplies America will receive from Russia which otherwise would go to Germany. By generous assistance and technical advice in reor- ganizing commerce and industry American may entirely exclude German com- merce during balance of war. Commercial attache should immediately be au- thorized and ample funds placed at his disposal to enter into contracts which will assure control of Russia's surplus products most needed by Germany. This should be followed by prompt action along lines of our eight and nine. Senator Nelson. What is the date of that? Mr. EoBiNS. February 15, a day or two after the ratification of the Brest peace. Not the ratification, either ; a day or two after the sign- ing of the Brest peace. Senator Nelson. The Brest treaty was not ratified until in March. Mr. EoBiNs. But it was signed. Senator Nelson. This was before it was signed? Mr. EoBiNS. You are quite right. I have made a misstatement. It w^as sent just after the failure of the Brest negotiations, but before the signing of peace. Senator Nelson. The first one. There was a preliminary negotia- tion. At first the war went on and they got within 50 miles of Petro- grad before the final treaty was made. Those are the facts. ]\Ir. EoBiNS. That is the fact. Senator Nelson. And that was ratified by this soviet you have f^efcribed in Moscow in the manner you have indicated. Now, m th'At connection you have described how Trotsky stayed away. Do B0LSHBVIK PEOPAGA]Sri)A. 811 you not tliink that he was posing in that case? One of the two leaders was for the treaty and the other stood back. Was not that for a, purpose, to have an anchor to windward ? Mr. EoBiNS. It may have been, Senator. But I think the actual facts of the situation do not yield to that view of it. That might be a matter of opinion. Senator Nelson. Do you not think, between the two, Lenine is the most conscientious Mr. EoBiNs. Decidedly so. Senator Nelson. Eevolutionist, more so than Trotzkj'? Mr. EoBiNS. Yes. I would say that, because of fundamental dif- ferences in character. Lenine is a patient, steady person. Trotzky is a great orator, a prima donna. Senator Nelson. Lenine is a real Slav ? Mr. EoBiNs. Yes. • Senator Nelson. And the other is a Hebrew? Mr. EoBiNS. Yes, sir. Senator Steeling. One question I want to ask Col. Eobins is this: I understood you to say that after the Brest Litovsk treaty it was apparent that Count Mirbach's economic mission would fail, and I do not understand how it could. It would seem to me that that would give Count Mirbach's mission or any German economic activi- ties a free field. Mr. EoBiNS. Let us consider that. Throughout the entire Soviet Russia it was stated that this was a robber peace forced upon revolu- tionary Eussia at the point of the bayonet; that they were trying to steal their land and their resources. They had gone down to fight •in the Ukraine; they were fighting the Germans up in Finland, and the whole authority of the Brest-Litovsk situation was an authority against soviet Eussia. Senator Sterling. Yet Lenine favored it? Mr. EoBiNS. Quite so, sir. Senator Steeling. And it was on his advice that it was ratified ? Mr. EoBiNS. Precisely, for the reasons indicated. But I do not think that is a point, for the mass life in Eussia was bitter in its re- sentment against German aggression and the terms of the Brest- Litovsk treaty which was forced upon Eussia. Senator Nelson. I want to call your attention to one fact that you omitted in your story of the Brest-Litovsk treaty, and that is that they had organized a Ukrainian republic or government of some kind. Mr. EoBiNS. Yes, sir. SenEttor Nelson. And they had their representatives there? Mr. EoBiNS. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. When the final treaty was made and the question ■was raised whether they should be allowed to sign the treaty sepa- rately for their own republic in connection with the representatives of Eussia, and either Lenine or Trotsky got up in the meeting and said it was either one or the other, and they would find out be- fore the day was over — one said it was all right to have the Ukrain- ians sign the treaty on behalf of the Ukraine — in that they recog- nized by their action that government as an independent government, distinct from Eussia. 812 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Robins. Trotsky was the person. Senator Nelson. Trotsky was the man who was present and got up in the meeting and said it was quite satisfactory — I am not quot- ing his words — satisfactory that they sign as representatives of the Ukrainian Eepublic. Mr. Robins. Moving on to the question of possible economic co- operation, I wish to speak about the modifications in the enforcement of certain decrees that followed the Brest-Litovsk ratification. The fourth all-Russian Soviet indicated the possibility of cooperation with the soviet government on a purely economic and nonrecogni- tion basis. And may I say to the committee, Senator, thnt the soviet was never anxious for fonnal recognition, and all I have to do is state the facts of their position to give you the reason why. They were leading an international socialist revolutionary movement, a definite class war, a definite economic materialistic, class revolutionary force movement. They had to appeal to their comrades, as they called them, in all other lands. The moment they made a treaty with any capitalistic country, so-called, whether it was with Germany or the allies, they in a sense injured their position and weakened the appeal of their social- istic, revolutionary purpose and program. They could have been said to have done what Kerensky had done but they had denounced him for doing, making common cause with unpatriotic capitalist gov- ernments. Trotsky's position was a sort of forlorn-hope position, or hopeful, if you will, Horatio on the bridge, holding out against the world. " Here we are, the leaders of the great proletarian revolu- tion, and we will have nothing to do with the imperialist allies, noth- ing to do with the Germany militarist autocracy. We are leading a great revolutionary movement." That was the front held forth, but the actual necessities of their economic life made them willing to make real concessions to America to get what was necessary in a sense for their economic existence, and you will find that conflict be- tween front, as it were, and facts, at many points in the situation. Xow, I want to bring out one or two other things. The decree of repudiation was not passed until 45 days, or something like that, after the decree had been introduced in the ,-oviet. It first came up for passage three weeks after the decrees passed on the 7th day of November. I regarded the passage of the decree -of repudiation as so complicating the situation, so violating the necessary good faith be- tween nations, that it was of great moment not to pass that decree. I went out to see Trotsky and urged on him that the decree should not be passed. He used his influence in the a!l-Russian soviet execii tive committee to prevent the decree from being passed. He then wont to Brest. It came up for consideration again while he was there. It is one of the well-known tenets of the Marxian school — ^the repu- diation cf debts. It came up and was about to be passed. I saw Lenine, and it did not pass right away, but some days afterwards I saw him and he said, " The decree of repudiation is going to be passed." Senator Sterling. Now, Mr. Robins, jus^ to make it plain to my mind, that was a decree of repudiation in regard to what ? ]Mr. Robins. The national debt. He said, " Col. Robins, you say that the allied governments will help the soviet government against BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 813 the central powers at all points ? " I said, " Yes, that has always been my statement." He said, " What you say to me indicates that I have five cards in my hands, when, in fact, I only have one. Four of the cards are blank. Those blank cards represent cooperation of the allies with soviet Eussia. All I have is the one card, which is the unity of the revolutionary workers and peasants of Eussia. They be- lieve in this formula as one of the things that every revolutionary government ought to do." He said, "We are going to pass it." I urged on him what it meant' agaiflSt economic help from America, atid was most insistent. He finally turned to me and said, " We are perfectly willing to take care of the American debt and the English debt, but we will not take care of the French debt." "Why; just because it is bigger ? " He replied, " That is not the only reason. That debt comes out of the loan of the French bourgeois bankers to the autocracy, which has kept that autocracy alive 30 years longer than it would have lived without financial support from France. What you are really asking me to do is to pay back the money loaned by the French bourgeois to keep the cossack whip and sword over our people for 30 years, and the workmen and peasants are not willing." Senator Nelsok. Did you not know that he was lying then — was misstating the facts ? Mr. EoBiNS. I did. He was overstating. Senator Nelson. Most of the money that went into that loan was money of the French peasants, and not of the bankers and higher classes. Mr. EoBiNS. I rather think, sir, that a large proportion of that had been loaned by the bankers, in the first instance, and placed with the peasants afterwards, and it had become a sort of savings of the peo- ple. But his argument was an argument that ran in ^Russia. Now, when that decree was passed it was passed under the circum- stances indicated, and I felt that we could always get around that decree; that is, while they might not formally repeal it, they would allow America to really pay the French debt from the great resources that were in Eussia; and talking with some of the members of the soviet, we led up to that, and they said that they felt that would be possible, if there was economic cooperation, later on. One day, about the 20th of March I think it was, a Mr. McAllister, of the International Harvester Co., the head of their enterprise in Eussia, came into my office in Moscow where I was then working with the Eed Cross and conducting my task there and serving the country, making daily communications to the ambassador. He said, "We are having trouble at our factory at Lubertzslty." I said, " Have you a factory at Lubertzsky? " He said, "Of course we have." I said, "Are you making anything up there? " He said, "We are making agricultural machinery. We have 5,000 or 6,000 harvesting machines on hand. We have 3,000 more ready to be assembled and we Avill have a thousand more by the time the crop is ready." " Have you been carrying on business since the Bolshevik revolution?" He said, "Yes; and our inen in the factory have done better than they did under Kerensky." I said, "Why" are you not happy, then?" He said, " They are extending that rule to the office, and to the assem- bhng of raw materials a-nd to distribution, and there is no value in the workingmen's control of those things." I think that is true. I think 814 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. that is what has happened where the decree has been carried to the full length. Senator Steeling. Did he in that connection speak of the loyalty of the workmen and the good treatment they had been accorded, and that that was one reason why the factory was still doing busiAess? Mr. EoBiNS. Yes; and I said, " Now, what you want is to have the enforcement of this decree stopped ? That is what you want ? You Avant to be given a reprieve for the moment? You want to have that ultimatum raised or the time extended? " He said, '" Yes." I went to Lenine and I said, " Now, there is a capitalistic enterprise, an American capitalistic enterprise, doing business in Russia for the purpose of making money, but in your formula, for the purpose of exploiting Russia. But it happens, commissioner, to be delivering the goods, to be manufacturing a product of prime economic neces- sity for an agrarian people — that is, agricultural machinery. Your decree, if it is enforced at this time, will wipe out that organiza- tion. So far as I am advised, the International Harvester Co. is the best producing organization for agricultural machinery in the world. They have the best brains not only for producing but also for mar- keting, I hear. I am not going to argue the case with you. You have got to have cooperation from America. You can not get a ton of space in any vessel in an American port and you can not get a dollar of interim credit between the time of shipment and until the raw material to pay for it comes back. You can not get a ton of space in any American ship for manufactured material if it can be success: fully maintained in America that a going concern making a primary product for the economic life of Russia 18 versts from Moscow can not continue to produce because of your socialistic decrees. I am not going to argue. I will simply leave it to your own judgment." The fact was, a representative from the soviet council went down there and conferred with the representatives of the harvester company, and Mr. McAllister came back to my office and said he had a perfectly satisfactory arrangement with them in relation to the enforcement of the workmen's decree, and that everything was going on satisfac- torily. When I left Russia that was the statement of those gentle- men to me, and I brought in information for the International Har- vester Co. and turned it ovei' to Mr. Edgar Bancroft, who met me at the train at Chicago on my way to Washington, urging cooperation and extension of credit and the possibility of doing business under the Bolshevik Russian government six months after that govern- ment had been in operation. I wish to state further that in the day's work there were con- stant modifications of these decrees that showed the possibility of doing work with the soviet government, in my judgment. One was in relation to the nationalization of banks, ancl affected the National City branch banks in Russia. In each one of these instances I talked with the responsible managers of business enterprises and in most in- stances they said they could continue to do business. I said to Mc- Allister, " McAllister, working out the future of manufacturing in Russia i^ possibly the biggest job left on the map, is it not, for a manufacturer ? " He said it was. I said, " I will agree with you that trying to run a factory in Bolshevik Russia is a hell of a job, if you will excuse the profanity, but is it not the job that we have to engage BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ^ 815 in. McAllister, suppose you left Eussia ; in six weeks who would be running your factory ? " He said that some German would ; and I said, "Certainly, because he is the only one that has got the mind and that it would mean serving the German economic control if he left. I said, " I am going to stay on and meet what comes. Won't you ? " I said exactly the same thing to Mr. Stevens, and both of those men were of that mind before I said anything about it. They agreed that there was this possible relationship of service that we ought to carry out in the Eussian situation. I now move to another question. Mr. Humes. Mr. Eobins, may I interrupt you a moment? What do you know as to the development at the plant of the International Harvester Co. subsequent to this conversation that you refer to with McAllister? Mr. KoBiNS. Subsequent to the conversation? If you mean imme- diately after it would be two months — I remained in Eussia for some time, and subsequent to my leaving Eussia I do not know what trans- pired. I left Eussia in May and Vladivostok the 1st of June, and at that time they were in agreement with the general position I hate stated. Mr. Humes. Do you know anything about the contributions that have been assessed or the taxes that have been assessed against that plant since that time ? Mr. EoBiNS. Not since that time. Mr. Humes. You are not familiar with that ? Mr. EoBiNS. No. Senator Nelson, Would you mind giving us information about the various decrees that this government of Lenine and Trotzky auT nounced? I would like information about their program and form of government. Mr. EoBi>fS. I shall be very glad to go into that later, if I may. Why were the formulas, the hard, stark Marxian socialist formulas, powerful in Eussia? Were they powerful? I make the statement that they were. I make the statement that I found more men, work- ingmen and peasants, who said over those formulas, in proportion to those active in general affairs, than I ever found of one culture any- where else, and I have been fairly vigorous and out in the open all of my life, and know this particular labor and economic struggle reasonably well. It was, I think, for this reason. For 60 years prior to the revolution of March 17 the structure of the Eussian Govern- ment had remained practically in statu quo at a time when the struc- ture of all the other governments, even of China, was being modified into more liberal and tolerable machinery of government. The Cos- sack whip and the Cossack sword, the power of the autocracy, held it absolutely static. Little efforts of educational enterprises, like that of Tolstoy on his estate, for peasants, when extended in any impor- tant direction were denounced as revolutionary and the leaders were imprisoned or killed. Little economic organizations among the work- ers in the Donetz coal basin, endeavoring to help the coal miners and their families, were denounced as revolutionary and their leaders were imprisoned or killed. Free speech, free press, right of petition, and the discussion of government were denounced as revolutionary and the leaders were imprisoned or killed. All those normal streams 816 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. of progi-essive life and thought that would have moved out and fer- tilized the Russian social system were dammed up and forced back into a turgid current, into subterranean and dangerous channels, and men said over and over in garrets and cellars, in forests, and in Siberian prisons, "When we get power, we will pass this decree and it will settle that; when we get power, we will pass that decree and it will settle that ; when we get poAver, we will pass this decree and it will settle the other thing," and the hard, metallic formula was said over and over again until men could say it backwards without miss- ing a word. Never having had a chance to try this indoor formula against the outdoor facts, they could not know any difficulties in its application to life. Practical men all know that there never was an indoor formula devised that fits outdoors, that will not break up and require modification when applied to reality; but the Eussian peasants and workingmen did not know, never had had a chance to try out anything in practice. Therefore they be- lieved in their dogmas. There was faith in the whole revolutionary cultiire. Why was it socialist? It was socialist because that ap- pealed to the coUectivist Slavic mind. I do not want to pretend to have wisdom that I do not possess. I am not wise in these things, but I do know certain human reactions to a degree. The Russian peasant moves and thinks collectively ; they act as a village ; they move and think in groups; they act collectively; cooperative associations run with wonderful ease in the Russian life. They are not individ- ualists; they have not the sense of personal responsibility and initia- tive that has been given to the Anglo-Saxon genius. Their natural collectivism made the socialist formulas and methods popular. The materialist antichurch side of it was also popular, and popular not because the Russian is not a religious-minded person, because he is. I have high regard for religion; I believe that the personal, social, individual control and social sanction that lies in a genuine religious life is of first consequence to civilization, and I believe that no demo- cratic institution can survive without it. I went to Russia and during the Kerensky regime I tried to find some center of moral power, some center of religious restraint and enthusiasm, that would hold this wild life, with the bit in its teeth, in the relig- ious institutions of the land. I went to the great sybor or confer- ence of the Greek Church at Moscow, and I met the procurator of the Holy Synod and other leaders, metropolitans, and bishops, and I avow this testimony, and the Senators can find it if they wish, that I have worked steadily with the religious forces in this country, have done such work as John R. Mott said had not otherwise been done in the universities of this country, for a distinct religious sanction, and I bear this testimony with regard to my Russian experience, that I never found anybody there who thought that the church in Russia could exercise moral restraint and social power, either inside or outside of the church. It had lost its credit absolutely. It had become associated in the revolutionary movement, in the minds of peasants and workingmen, as a class institution. For instance, here is a peasant walking under the most holy gate into the Kremlin with me. He takes off his hat. Another crosses himself and kisses an ikon. I say to them, " You are religious? " " Yes." " You believe in God and in Jesus Christ?" "Yes." " You believe in the BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGAKDA. 817 church? " " No ! " The church has been the spy system of autocracy for 200 years. It was that resentment against the organized churchi that made them accept, as it were, the materialistic philosophy. Why did this philosophy have power in the villages? Nine per cent of the Russian people are city proletariat, and are educated in the formulas of revolutionary socialism. They are in the cities. Forty per cent of that 9 per cent goes back twice a year to the villages, ati planting time and harvest time. They are the persons who have been* away, who have had experience. They go back to the village and the village people gather around them and they hear their talk, and their talk is of the revolution, of the good time that is coming. Their talk is in the terms of the formula of social revolution. For that reason there was this widespread agreement in the formulas running through Russian life. These revolutionary formulas had a real power and a tremendous significance at this hour of Russian upheaval. These formulas had. been talked and cultivated and quoted in Russia by people of the better classes, even by many who in the Hour of their realization repudiated them. Madame Bresh- kovskaya, great old spirit that she was, for 40 years in the villages and the cities said to the peasants, " The land is yours ; you should not pay rent to the landlords, and barons"; said to the workingmen, " The factories are yours ; your labor produces all. You should con- trol the mills and mines." She had distributed thousands of copies of the communist manifesto and Karl Marx's Das Kapital, and when the hour came and the masses demanded the fulfillment of her promises, she, trying to exercise restraint, bravely and heroically spent her entire leadership and capital in trying to restrain the , realization of the very things that she had led the peasants to de- mand. And that explains why this social revolutionary group and Kerensky were absolutely bereft of power and leadership. This old woman was the greatest figure in Russia, and she could have com^ manded more soldiers when I went there than any other one person, and she lost her influence because she constantly refused to recognize the demands that she had taught the peasants and workers to make. The same thing was manifest among certain representatives of the American Government in Russia. For years I have been in the, open fighting socialist doctrines, and certain men said that I did not have intelligence enough to be a socialist, which may be true, but I had heard one of these men to whom I refer down in Washington Square, in Greenwich Village, in New York, sitting with other high brows and uplif ters, telling the wonderful gospel of Karl" Marx ; the class strug- gle, that that is the real principle pf the whole social process; the economic interpretation of history, the iron law of wages, the law of diminishing returns ; that that is the whole thing in social progress. He said that in comfort and in ease in Washington Square; but when responsibly engaged by the American Government in trying to protect American interests, national interests, if you will, allied interests, if you will, when these formulas came down the Nevski in the form of bearded, red-blooded peasants and workingmen with bayoneted guns and said, " This thing that you taught we are going to do, and we will push out of the way your Kerensky government and all the others," then these gentlemen threw up their hands and said, "Oh, my God.; that is not socialism ; that is German agents, 85723—19 52 818 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. thieves, and murderers!" It was nothing in the world but the realization in the time of strain, in the only way they will ever be realized, of those. formulas they had taught in thvi ease and comfort of the parlor in Washington Square. And the movement from class struggle to class terror is perfectly understandable and foreseeable. If I believe that only one class has any right, if I believe it has pro- duced everything and that the other class is nothing but a bunch of parasites, if that class gets in the way in time of strain, I will stick a bayonet into it. Senator Sterling. Is it simply because that is the doctrine of the Bolshevists that she objected to it? Mr. Robins. The only point is that she cultivated it for 40 years. Senator Sterling. And she never believed that it would come with the excesses and the atrocities that characterized it when it did come ? Mr. EoBiNS. In other words, she did not believe that a revolution would be a revolution. She believed that it would be a perfectly nice, orderly thing, that would leave us in the leadership, we nice people; but revolutions come eating and drinking, and if you create a revolu- tion, then, in the day of judgment, you ought not to be heard towhine about it. That, in my judgment, explains the sweep of the revolu- tionary formula in Russian life. And may I say this, even at the risk of being misunderstood: I have fought in the open all of my life. If I had lived under a state such as Lenine and Trotzky lived under, if I had lived under the Cossack whip and sword and had seen men and women by the thousand sent to Siberia without trial, if I had known the church as the church was known in Russia, as the spy system of autocracy among the poor, then I believe I should have been opposed to the state and the church. I thank God that I knew the state where my little county could meet in convention, in demo- cratic fashion, and run the show, for I live in that part of the country where possibly are preserved in their purity more than anywhere else Anglo-Saxon institutions, south of Mason and Dixon's line. I re- member the church as the little white church on the hill, where we went to hear the man speak that the people chose to have there, who taught us the old simple doctrines of Christianity, and I believe he was highly serviceable and not a betrayer of liberty and justice, but rather the friend of both; But I would like to have you really see the Russian situation and understand the lines of this movement, so that we can combat it eflfectively and not on false grounds. Senator Nelson. I would appreciate your statement much better if yOu would outline to me a plan of government as outlined by their decrees. Then I would be very glad to hear your discussion of it, but you have not given us that yet. You have simply told us about the decree where they canceled all foreign debts — all indebtedness of the country. Now, if yoti will tell us the rest of the plan of govern- ment, we can better understand what you are proceeding to say. You have not done that yet. Mr. Robins. Quite true. I rather assumed that the Senator Iniew those decrees; that there had been so much discussion about it, it was all in the mind of the Senator. I spoke of a decree of all lands to the peasants^-distributing the land ; the decree of all control of industry in the workingman ; the formal decree of the control of the factories; the decree offeriixi?' seneral democratic ispiicA fa the world ; the decree BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. : 81 9^' tkt'prQvidM for the control of government to ,be in the soviet— of all , poi^er in the Soviets. There were other decrees of similar character, . but they are all accessible, and to go into a detailed statement about that would take so very much time that I thought that probably that had all been covered in previous discussions before this committee, but I will return to it again, if the Senator has any questions that he de- sires to ask. May I suggest, Senator Overman, with a kindly, well-intentioned, generous government, like our Government, wanting really to serve Russia, seeking really to have her better her condition and free all of the people everywhere, why it is that we failed to connect in that Russia story ? And ma}' I suggest to the committee that you. will find several lines of intelligence that will give you leading in the matters I will now discuss? One of them is the mission sent to Russia with the Hon. Elihu Root at its head. I regard Mr. Root as the ablest man on international questions in America. I do not believe that we could have chosen a man who by intent and past experience and in- tegrity of character was more calculated to serve wisely America in that situation; but I relate simply the fact of the reaction to his. appointment as I found it there. You may loiow that he had at- tacked at one time in this country a very important public person,, and you may know that as a result of that attack editorials, the most , brilliant possible of their kind, had been published for successive weeks, accompanied by cartoons, speaking of Mr. Root as the jackal of privilege, as the watchdog of Wall Street, and all that sort of thing. They had been run in the public press. Probably the German agents- in America, immediately upon his appointment, gathered these up and sent them over, and they appeared in pamphlets in Russia, trans- lated in to. Russian, with the cartoons and the words changed to Rus- sian synonyms, so that even friendly papers said, " How is it possible that the great democratic President should send over to Russia to help make the world safe for democracy — ■to revolutionary Russia — theiman who has spent most of his time, according to what we hear, in trying to. make America safe for plutocracy ? " I think it was thor- oughly unjust and unfair, but none the less it was a real situation^ and it was charged on the basis of that propaganda that Mr. Root was:there for the^purpose of getting Russia for Wall Street, for this, that, rand the other special capitalist interest, just as it was charged against me, and with just as little truth. Then there was another fact of importance. There returned to- Russia irnmediately at the beginning of the revolution great numbers of Enssians, from America,- immigrants, both Gentile and Jew, and they .represented two classes. They represented genuine, honest men, who had met America at America's worst — and America's worst, when we are honest and frank with ourselves, is evil. I know and you laiow that.. I havff spent some of my time trying to help iron these evils. - out;. ;I know that 97 per cent, or at least 90 per cent, of America. is sound and true and competent and will ultimately take care of all bad spots, but there were and are bad spots. Men came back to Russia and, spoke of the steel mills of Pennsylvania, spoke of the 12-hour day, spoke of the 24-hour shifts every two weeks, spoke of the seven- dayrWeek, spoke of those things of the nonunion coal mines of West; Vitginia,- of the tenement sweatshops, of the- political system of our, 820 BOLSHEVIK PE0PAGA2iIDA. ' great cities, and the political police court with its corruption ; inter- preted America as being a capitalist's heaven and the workman's hell. That was perfectly false, but it carried influence, because those men spoke the language, and they came back with that interpretation; and man after man, when I was fighting against the rise of Bolshevism, said, " We do not care for your democracy ; we do not want political democracy ; we are going to have a real economic revolution ; we did not depose our Czar to get 20 czars ; we are not going to have a czar of oil, a czar of coal, a czar of the railroads." You know the stuff; we are familiar with it. It was that playing upon the situation that made the Eussian revolutionary movement go from a democratic en- terprise onto a fundamental economic socialist revolutionary plane, if I know anything about it. To this group were added the agitators who were the paid agents of Germany or the doctrinaire socialists of the destructive groups, such as the I. W. W. There are two or three other influences that ought to be in our minds if we are to know and understand the play in Eussia. I have spoken of the 7 per cent, sincere, honest, and interested — selfislily in some instances. But that 7 per cent had all the contact in the foreign capitals, all the contact with the normal lines of ambassadorial and mission life, for they were the only people you needed to Imow in the old regime. They had the language and the contact, they were the people that furnished us with ideas ; and then, second, after the decree of repudiation, there was the perfectly understandable position of France in Eussia. It was summed up at one time by a representative of France there in a discussion with me, when the question of inter- vention was in point. I said to myself : " It seems to me that inter- vention is a mistake and will ruin our interests here, and it will turn European Eussian people and resources over to Germany and make European Eussia a German province, and I am against it for the time being. But, I said to myself, '' Suppose I am wrong." I sought a con- ference with this French representative to whom I referred, and he said this to me when we put the map on the table and discussed in- tervention. Have you done that? It is 800 miles across Manchuria until you get to Siberia. There are the Chinese Eastern Eailroad, the Upper Amur Eailroad, and the Amur River, three lines of communi- cation to control, 650 miles to Lake Baikal, with the road around precipitous mountain cliffs on either side, with 32 tunnels already mined ; then 4,000 miles across Siberia with one line of railroad open on both flanks, and 800 miles across the Urals to the European Eus- sian front, before you will divert a single German from the western front. This French representative said to me, " I know it is not prac- tical, but it must be attempted." Then I said, " Why not get Russia's raw material and handle this economic situation here and win the war on the western front ? " Then this gentleman said, " What is it to us if the allies win the war, and France loses the savings of a hundred years ? " That was the heart of the French position in the Russian situation. There was the third line of influence. It was this. There came a time when the Bolsheviki were organizing Soviets in Turkestan and distributing documents carrying the general proposi- tions of no annexations, no indemnities, and self-determination of nationalities. Mr. Lockhart came to me one day with a cablegram from the British foreign office and said, "Here is more trouble," and • BOISHETIK PBOPAGAIIDA. 821 the cablegram was to this effect, " We are advised of the organization of Soviets in Turkestan. It is only a short distance across Afghan- istan to India, and if the Mahometans in Turkestan begin to discuss self-determination it will be only a short time until the Mahometans in India will begin to discuss self-determination, and it may greatly complicate the situation for the British Empire." There were genuine complications of this character, movements for certain pur- poses in certain positions at certain points in the play. We have now in front of us the general situation. May I now speak of the reason why I hold the judgment, as I do hold it unhesitatingly, that Lenine and Trotzky were not conscious German agents ? I started to work with them and dealt at all points on the basis of uncertainty, question, suspicion, but delivery of each specific situation and task. One of the persons whom I came in con- « tact with first was Zalkind, assistant commissioner of foreign affairs in the soviet government. When Trotzky went to Brest-Litovsk, all of the affairs that I had to deal with the soviet government about had to pass through Zalkind. I early became convinced that he was either a German agent or certainly a vigorous enemy of the allied cause. I waited for some real situation. I did not know whether he suited Jjenine or not. If I had found he had suited him I would have simply gone on with that much more of the facts in front of me, but I wanted to know. I did not go to Lenine and say, " I am suspicious of your assistant commissioner of foreign affairs. I think he is a bad fellow. I think he is a German agent." I waited for a situation of definite fact. The situation came. I was called to the American Embassy one day and shown a letter transmitted by Zalkind in the absence of Trotsky, as acting commissioner of foreign affairs, in the briefest form transmitting a bitter, virulent resolution of an anarchist group, denouncing the American ambassador and the American Govern- ment — a clearly unfriendly act. I asked the ambassador to let me have that material. It was taken and laid on Lenine's desk; Trotsky was away. He was asked, " Commissioner, is that what you want ? Does that meet with your approval ? Here is an open, definite, direct insult to the American ambassador and the American Government by the responsible minister of your foreign office." He looked it over and said, " That must be a provocative " ; in other words, an effort to provoke trouble by false statements and acts, that was always present, in the Russian situation — ^provocation of one thing and another. You hear it constantly and see it again and again. He was answered, " I do not think so. I know Zalkind's signature. I think it is gen- uine, Commissioner. Would you mind calling him up on the tele- phone? " He called him up on the telephone and Zalkind admitted the transaction, and the commissioner then and there told Zalkind to make a formal apology to the American ambassador. I was pleased. Two hours afterwards I called up the American Embassy to find out whether-the apology liad come over there, and the ambassador said, " No ; there was not any apology. On the contrary, a representative came here from the foreign office of the soviet government and said that there was to be a demonstration of anarchists in front of the embassy to-night, and that the government was going to protect us; had ample power to protect us ; was going to 822 -BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. . send down a special machine-gun corps, or something of that sortj to protect us." Here was a lying camouflage of special protection, based upon an unfriendly act. I went out to the embassy, supposing that this man had talked to the ambassador. He had not. The ambassador thought he had talked with his private secretai'y, Mr. Johnston. Mr. Johnston was out. We waited until Mr. Johnston came back and found he had not talked to him but had talked to Mr. Bailey, the first secretary of the embassy. When Mr. Bailey came in quite a good deal of time had then elapsed, and we got a statement made by Mr. Bailey, dictated and written on the stationery of the embassy, to mfe, without mentioning anybody else, of the facts that had occurred. That was taken out and laid in front of Lenine after midnight that night, and we said, " This is the way your foreign office has followed jour instructions for apology." The next morning the Izvestija <;arried the line that Zalkind had been removed as assistant commissioner of foreign affairs. I saw Lenine, and he said, ^'This man has some relations with our people of influence. If he is out of Russia, are you satisfied ? " I said, " Entirely so." He said, " We are going to send him to Switzerland." I said, " Good ! You can not send him too far for me." He ^^as removed. In my judgment, he was not removed for the German interest, and it seemed to me another indication of the facts of the situation. We went on then. I have spoken to you about the anarchist situa- tion in Petrograd. Now let me speak of the anarchist situation in Moscow. It is now after the ratification of the Brest-Litovsk peace. It is along in April. Anarchist organizations, financed, in my judgment, by German agents, are developing more and more, until important allied officers tell me that the anarchists are running Moscow. I say, " No ; I do not think so. I think the Kremlin, where Lenine is, is running Moscow." Finally I, who had worked so steadily in the situation, began to be, I suppose, definitely objectionable. I had recovered certain property in certain quarters, taken by the anarchist clubs which were masquerading as anarchists when they were really thieves and robbers, in some instances at least. Senator Steeling. Colonel, may I ask whether the Bolshevik government was doing anything at that time to repress the anarchist movement ? Mr. Robins. Nothing particularlj' serious, I guess. On a certain day I am in the headquarters telegraph office at Moscow, sending my daily communication to the American am- bassador over the direct wire. A furore starts and people run up the stairs. I go down the stairs and find a group of 10 or 12 anarchists with bayoneted guns surrounding my automobile and the guns pointed at my chauffeur, telling him to move on. I open the door of the automobile and get in and sit in with the others — there are a number of anarchists in there — and through my interpreter begin debating the matter with them — arguing the matter with them. They say that they have a requisition to take my automobile. WelJ, as there were a good many Government requisitions I did not know but that it was possible that the requisition was on the square. : I ask^to see the requisition, and they refuse to show it to me. i ask theni then BOLSHByiK I^OEAGANDA. 823 •to take the automobile to the headquarters of the Petrograd soviet and there get a test of the matter. We started, but when my chauffeur started to drive down a cer- tain direction toward the soviet office they pushed a couple of guns against him and started him the other way. I then said, " Well, we will leave this situation and make another move at it." I did not want to go to the anarchist headquarters in the automobile, even if the automobile went, and they said I could not get out of the car; but we opened the door, my chauffeur stopped the car, and I stepped off the car, and they did not shoot us, but the man who was on the running board turned to me and said, " Sprechen sie Deutsch ? " I said, " No ; I speak English." The car was taken to the headquarters of the anarchists. I went that afternoon to the foreign minister, Tchitcherin, and made a simple statement of the facts. I said, " I know this is a rough game, and this is probably just done for my comfort to make me quit the play, but I want that automobile, and I want a show of definite -power in the situation. There are those who say that the power -is over there at 9 Duvorskaya and those who say that the power is in the Kremlin. I have been saying it is in the Kremlin, and I want to know where the power is." I was promised my automobile that afternoon. The afternoon came, but not the automobile. I went to see Derjinski, of the Com- mittee on counter revolution and sabotage. He said, "I will get your automobile." Later on he called up and said that he could not get it until the next day. There seemed to be backing and filling. I went to see Trotsky and talked with Trotsky about it. I went to see Lenine and talked to Lenine about it. I said, " Now, I do not give two raps about the automobile, but I want to know where the power is in Moscow. I have said it was in your hands. If it is over here with the anarchists, I know where that leads back to. It leads back to German control, and I am going to know." Finally Trotsky asked me to come down to his headquarters, and I went down, and he said, " The real situation about this anarchist business is as follows: The Central Anarchist Club was organized in March, 1917, under Kerensky's government. Kerensky and the old Duma never dared to attack them, because they participated in taking over the power from the Czar. They have grown stronger. They helped us — the Bolsheviks — in our hour of revolution, and there are members of the Petrograd soviet who are tender on this anarchist situation; I agree with you that they are a menace; I agree with you that they are thieves and robbers; I agree with you that they have got Grerman money ; but we are holding elections this week out ia the various factories, and the mensheviks and others have charged us with being brutal and with ruling with the bayonet all the time, and we do not want to meet this situation with force until after the 'elections." Well, quite frankly, I understood that argument. It was- very normal to me. I have seen other things set aside until elections are over. [Laughter.] Senator Nelson. You have seen that in this country, have you not? ■ Mr. EoBiNS. Even in this country. Senator; arid I said to him, ^^' Well,. I do not care about a few days, but I want a definite.' expres- 824 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. sion of power in this situation, so we can know where we are, or I am going to cable my Government that there is a real question as to who is running this show." Three days afterwards, the last election hav- ing taken place, I was called up on the telephone, and he said : "At 2 o'clock to-morrow morning," which would have been a certain Friday, " we are going to move against the anarchist centers. There are not only the 13 centers that you reported on, but there are 26 centers, and they have a sort of organization, and we are confident now of what they mean, and we are going after them." That morning at 2 o'clock cavalry, 4-inch cannon, and infantry surrounded 26 centers in Moscow and its environs, palaces that had been fortified with machine guns, etc., and gave them five minutes to surrender. In some instances they surrendered. In some they began shooting at once, and when they did the soviet forces answered with machine gun and cannon. Every center was taken by about 6.30 in the morning. In some in- stances they threw smoke bombs down into the cellars to smoke them out. Some 14 persons were killed, some 40 persons were wounded, some 600 prisoners were taken captive, and a large amount of goods — jewelry, rubles, stuff of one sort and another — was found in these cen- ters and confiscated, and certain machine guns, new, of a new pattern, not found elsewhere in Russia, of German make, were found in those palaces. Now, this was another demonstration of power against what I thought was a definite German interest and what I now believe to have been a definite German interest. The time came when I was instructed to leave Russia to report to the Government of the United States. Senator S^^eling. Colonel, there is one interesting thing we would like to know. Did you get your automobile ? [Laughter.] Mr. Robins. I got my automobile, unscratched, sir. I wanted the Government to act; either organized cooperation or organized opposition. Drifting was ruinous to all interests, of Amer- ica, Russia, and the allies. My later cables will show that I kept urg- ing on the Government either organized cooperation or organized opposition, so that we could know where we were in the situation. I believed that the best plan was organized cooperation, for reasons that are now pretty well known to the world. I did not share the view that there was a vast mass of noble people lying outdoors, peasants who wanted the barons to come back, workingmen who wanted feudal masters to come back to the factories, and other people who wanted the grand dukes to come back. They were not there, if I knew any- thing about Russia. And then this idea that if you sent in one divi- sion, then the great Russian mass would rise up and would begin to roll like a snowball, and everything would be happy, never for a moment lived in my mind. When I got ready to come out representatives of the allies in Russia said, "How are you going; by Murmansk?" I said, "No; I am not going by Murmansk. That road is built over the icebog. It is beginning to get warm. It may thaw, and I may be marooned 300 versts from the port." " Oh, you are going out by Archangel ? '' " No ; I am not going out by Archangel. It is three weeks before the ice is out in Archangel." " Well, you are not thinking of going by Siberia? " "I am going by Siberia." " Why, don't you know that BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 825 the wild bands of marauders, demobilized soldiers with rifles, robbers, and thieves are running all up and down over Siberia, confiscating everything in sight? " " No," I said ; " I not only do not know it, but I. do not believe it." " Well," they said, " don't you know that the armed war prisoners are going to take control of the Siberian Kail- road under the soviet ? " I said : " On the contrary, the investigation made by Capt. Hicks, of the British mission, and Capt. Webster, of the American Red Cross, exposed that false statement thoroughly." I have that report here. Let me advert to it a moment. Some weeks prior to this time there had been coming out constantly a general statement about armed war prisoners in Siberia planning to take the Trans-Siberian Railway and stores for the central powers. I did not believe it, gentlemen. I did not believe that any people who had recently won their own soil by giving their own blood for it were going to turn it over to some foreign force to take it away from them ; but I said : " If it is so, it is so. What I believe is of no conse- quence " ; and I called, of my mission, William B. Webster, and said to him, " You have never been in sympathy with the cooperation policy that I have been working with the soviet. You have the con- fidence of the American Embassy, through your splendid work in relief of war prisoners for a year prior to your coming into our service in Siberia. You know the Siberian game. I am giving you power and money and resources to send you to Siberia to investigate war prisoners. I want you to find the facts. If there are so many armed war prisoners, in numbers that are dangerous to the allied cause, you say so, and I will back you through the piece. Come , back here with chat, come back here with mere talk, and make a report that does not rest on fact, and I will follow you to the end of the road in opposition. Now," I said, " go to it." I went to Lockhart, and I said, "Lockhart, I had a talk with Trotsky this afternoon, and said to him that there was continual rumor about this armed war prisoner business in Siberia, and if it was a real thing I was going to know it; and he laughed and said, 'What do you want? ' I said, ' I want to send men into Siberia, and I want you to give them the frank and power of the soviet and I want to investigate that situation.' " He gave a special train and gave full power to those men, Capts. Webster and Hicks. I said to Lockhart, " I want you to send Capt. Hicks, because Capt. Hicks is the ablest man on your staff, anti-Bolshevik, was wounded on the French fr6nt, and will probably find the facts. He is a trained military man," as Mr. Webster was not. Those two men went. They spent six weeks from Ekaterinburg to Chita. They made their report. Their report is here. I file it with the committee. On that report I was satisfied of the actual conditions in Siberia. When I started out I said to Lenine, " Com- missioner, I am going out bv Siberia. There are a great many provincial Soviets. I should like to have a letter from you, saying that I am to be given free passage and protection everywhere." He wrote that letter. I have it. I went 6,000 miles across Russia, the largest contiguous territory recognizing one authority in this world. "We crossed 15 provincial soviet jurisdictions.. At the first impor- tant town at every new jurisdiction the train was met by a platoon of soldiers and a commissar of the local or provincial soviet. They 826 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. inspected the train ; they confiscated what they said was contraband, and arrested what they said was counter-revolution. I had this letter of Lenine,, this autograph letter with the seal "of the council of the people's commissars. In every instance I " met this group of inspecting officers at the platform. I said : " Who is your commissar? Will you come in and sit with me a moment? Then, if you want to inspect this car, all right." I had seven persons on that car. I had more papers than had been brought out from Russia since the revolution up to that time. I had cer- tain documents for the American Government under seal. I had certain documents for other governments under seal. I had five rifles and 150 rounds of ammunition, given to me, put in the car when I sent the car to Jassy, in Roumania, as I told you before luncheon, one of the 32 cars sent down there in the first instance, when things were very stormy. They were still with the car. They permitted me to violate the decree against carrying arms ; they permitted me to move my car from one train to another; they permitted me to violate the decree about food ; they permitted me to do the things necessary to get out in the speediest possible fashion. I crossed the 6,000 miles, and I was never inspected a single time. In every instance, when the commissar came to the train Lenine's letter was sufficient. Even at Khabarovsk, which is 4,500 miles away from the farthest range of the Red Guards from Moscow or Petrograd up to that time — when I got to Khabarovsk, which is away up on the upper Amur, as you will see when looking at it on the map — they read this letter and gave to me the right to inspect the fleet of the Bolshevik power on the Amur River and other particular courtesies, based sim- ply on the letter of Nicolai Lenine. Not a shot was fired. I did not fire a shot nor hear one fired. I did not hear any question of the soviet power during the 6,000 miles, and I passed on that 6,000-mile journey in soviet Russia in only a few hours longer time than was necessary under the old regime. Under those circumstances the unity and control of soviet Russia over Siberia as well as European Russia and central Russia at that -time was definite. It was subsequent to that time. Senators, that the Czecho-Slovak movement began, when Siberia was taken finally from soviet control, or taken for the time being, at least, from soviet control. Is thei-e a menace in Russian Bolshevism ? A fundamental menace, gentlemen, in my judgment; a menace so much more far-reaching, going so much deeper, than has sometimes been suggested by its bitter- est opponents, that I think it well that we should take high ground and really know the thing we deal with. For the first time in the history of the human race there has been a definite economic revo- lution, an attempt to realize the stock formulas of Marx in a socialist, economic materialist, class control by force. Senator O^tirman. Right there, I should like to hear you express .yourself as to what ground we should take if it is a menace to this country. \ ,. Mr. Robins. I will, sir. . I regard the soviet program as economically impossible and morally wrong. T regard it as carrying class, materialist, force formulas be- yond the range of theory, to where those formulas produce class terror and economic ruin. I think we had in Russia the most extraordinary B01,SHEVIK PB^pAGAJirpA. ,827 ^laboratory revelation, if it had been left to work itself out, of the . failure and the wrong of the Marxian program, that was humanly .possible. ■ . . ' Nicolai Lenine, sitting in the Kremlin, said to me, "The Eussian revolution will probably fail. We have not developed far enough fin the capitalist stage, we are too primitive, to realize the socialist state ; but we will keep the flame of the revolution alive in Russia until it breaks in Europe. It will break first in Bulgaria, and the Bul- '.garians will cease fighting. It will break next in Austria, and the Austrians will cease fighting. When you hear that the workmen's, soldiers', and peasants' soviet is in command of Berlin, remember that the little man in the Kremlin told you that a proletarian world revo- lution was born." He said that to me in April of 1918. He said to me, " We chal- 'lenge the world." I said, " Yes? '' He said, " Soviet Russia, and the control of the producers, challenges every social control of middle- class, bourgeois, political democracy as well as autocracy, and will bring them all into judgment." " Well," I said, " some contract ! " He said, " You think that America is immune." I said, " Yes; I do." He said, " Your Government is entirely corrupt. Col. Robins." I said, " Commissioner, I am sorry, but you are mistaken. I know the •corruptions in my country, but I also know district after district where the free citizens, after discussion, elect the men they choose to elect, and they are their honest representatives. " " Oh," he said, " I do not mean grafting. You mistake me. I mean that your Govern- ment lacks integrity. Your political social control of politics lacks integrity." Now, if you get lost here, I am glad, because I got lost. I am not wise when they get into these realms. I want to get down to the ground again. I got out where I was beyond my depth, biit I wanted to get before you what was in his mind. He said, " You are electing men to your Congress and your Senate in America now on large, expansive ideas of Democrat and Republican, but that is not what they are elected on. They are elected on hidden economic in- terests." I said, " That is not true." He said, " It is true." Senator Overman. Was that Trotzky talking now ? Mr. Robins. No, sir; this is Denine. He said, " It is not genuine." He said, " If you were going to have the proper representation from Pennsylvania, you ought to have the producers' representation. In- stead of having a lawyer who will really serve Mr. Gary or Mr. Schwab or some other interest, you ought' to have Mr. Gary and Mr. Schwab in the Senate. They are the producers of steel. You ought to have the producers of transportation and the producers of coal representing you." He said, " That is what we are doing. They libel us by saying we are only putting workmen in the soTiet." He said, "You know so and so," naming a certain engineer from, the Donetz coal basin. "We are putting in the producers, but we are not put- ting in the parasites. We are not' putting in anybody who simply owns stock, and simply has ownership. We are putting in the pro- ducers. We are going to challenge the world with a producers' re- piiblic. The Donetz coal basin will be represented by producers of coal; the railroad system of Russia will be represented by producers <)f transportation; the postal telegraph^y prodiicers, of that com- munication, and so on through." He said, "We challenge "every 828 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. political society to-day in exactly the same way that the French revolution challenged every political society of its time. It was the bourgeois, capitalist, middle-class control against the old feudal sys- tem, which was moribund and worn out. The French Revolution was overwhelmed, but it destroyed every feudalism in Europe. We may be overwhelmed, but we will destroy every moribund political social control in the world." Now, Senators, there is the genuine thing. If you get the menace of your Russian revolution on the basis of German agents, theft and murder, and all that sort of thing, you get a wholly unsound view of the actual scope and power and menace that there is in it. I believe that its decree of workmen's control will destroy production in Rus- sia. I believe that its class theory makes in the end for the class ter- ror and the destruction of life and people without regard to right. I believe that its materialist program challenges the Christian con- science of the world ; and I believe that when we understand what it is, when we know the facts behind it, when we do not libel it nor slander it or do not lose our heads and become its advocates and defenders, and, really know what the thing is, and then move for- ward to it, then we will serve our country and our time. I believe in political democracy. I believe in the Christian conscience. I believe they are challenged as they have not been challenged in the past periods of the world's history, and I believe that America alone can meet that challenge to the nations of the world. I believe it, sir, be- cause class control and the betrayal of great sanctions by class domi- nation has broken the credit of every other nation in the world. The war is over and we can now speak some truth that we could not before have spoken. I have not spoken before on this situation. The power of the German militaristic autocracy is crushed. Until it was crushed it was the supreme duty of every man to do his part in the war, and no man could do or say aught to lessen the capacity of every free people in the world to win the war against the German power. Over in England, the land of my fathers, I think there is the ablest European statesman of recent times, Lloyd-George ; and yet the Eng- lish Government was so uncertain of the power of the law that when Sir Edward Carson and the Ulsterites challenged the English Gov- ernment, as they did challenge it when Lloyd-George was there, with a liberal majority behind him, they did not enforce the public law of England against it. The. other day, with an overwhelming Tory majority behind Lloyd-George, they hesitated and neglected to en- force the law of the military and public statutes against Belfast Soviets, against the strikers in Liverpool, and against mutinous sol- diers at Dover. Why ? Because there is an uncertainty of the faith and credit of the national power. Let us be honest with ourselves. The religious sanction of the Church of England has become a class sanction, so much so that large groups have chosen the economic socialist class, materialist control, and are following it to-day. The challenge of the Russian soviet by the English Government can not be met, in my judgment, successfully to-day. We know France. Old heroic, splendid Clemenceau will survive that assassin's bullet. His fame is safe, but his cause is dead. Under- neath the French social order to-day is that growing socialist class BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 829 materialistic pressure, with the Christian sanction lost out of the common life at many points. You know what Italy is. It is a powerful class group masquerading as a government over a volcano. America alone can meet this chal- lenge. Behind the American democratic, political, social control there are enough men, women, and children who live a decent, con- tented, successful life to bind with power the institutions of our Gov- ernment, so that whether it is a Wilson or a Taft or a Eoosevelt that is President, there is a majority oTsuch numbers and faith in support , of our Government that there can not be any question of its genuine authority and sanction; the mass of the people will fight for it, suffer for it ; if need be, die for it. Behind the Christian sanction and conscience" in America there is an uncorrupted faith that still continues with abiding power. We can meet that challenge. We can raise these forces into united action. You can be instrumental in rallying these forces against the real chal- lenge of the Russian situation, understandable as it is in the light of Eussian history, coming out of the Russian story, out of its terrible past. The evils here in our country most of us will acknowledge will- ingly, but we know there is energy enough in the institutions we have to meet them on the square. But, Senators, mere force is an old failure against ideas. I am one who would use the force of the public power to meet that man or that group of men who conspired by force and violence or sought by violence and force to overthrow our Government or to deprive others by these methods of legal rights or property. I would meet this challenge at all times and places with unhesitating and sufficient force to maintain the public law. But I would never expect to stamp out ideas with bayonets. I would never expect, sirs, to suppress the desire for a better human life for men, women, and children, no matter how ill founded in political fact and political experience, with force. The only answer for the desire for a better human life is a better human life. I believe that our institutions fur- nish that better human life for more men, women, and children than any other institutions in the world. I believe that whatever is wrong can be ironed out within the Constitution and the law. I believe that we have the means of meeting this Russian challenge when it is really miderstood and known. ' Senator Sterling. Suppose, Colonel, that the manifestation of the idea is through force and through atrocities, and tlirough great excesses against society and law and order, would you meet it with force? Mr. RoBEsrs. Absolutely. Senator Steeling. Why, certainly. Mr. Robins. Yes; but there is a large expanse of ideas and pur- poses in the situation which can be met only by knowing what the thing is we are meeting, what its conditions are, what it came from, what in the nature of things we can expect from it in its development. Senator Nelson. I gather from your statement that you are in the condition of this old lady_ that was mentioned — ^that is, you be- lieve there is a good deal of virtue in the Bolshevik doctrine when it it called for, but you do not believe in its practical application ? Mr Robins. On the contrary, I do not believe in the doctrine at all. 830 BOLSHEYlk PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. I rather got the impression that yon did. • s Mr. Robins. That is one of the difficulties that I have been in sine?' I came back from Russia. If I told the truth, as I have tried to do in this presence under the pains and penalties of an oath, and did' not lie and slander folks, and did not say that they are German agents and thieves and murderers, criminals utterly, then I am a Bolshevist. And I can not do that. I have got to try to tell the truth. There are people ^ho believe that this is the great gospel.' You have had several of them in here as witnesses. My idea is that their wheels are not running around accurately. It may be mine that ' are not running correctly ; but a fellow has to use the brains he has ' got and do the best he can with them. [Laughter.]. I refuse to libel either side of this situation and controversy. I think that the truth lies where I have been trying to open up the situation. There is just one thing that pleased me thoroughly when I got back from Russia, and that was a cartoon in the New York Tribune, by Darling. It was a picture of a man being carried forcibly down, the street. You could see that they were taking him right along. It was rough stuff. His eyes were blacked and his collar was unfas-" tened, and the men that were carrying him showed some signs of punishment themselves. A bystander butts in and says, " What are you so brutal with that fellow for? What are you doing with him? ' where are you taking him? " They say, " You stay out of this' thing. This fellow is incurably insane." " What is the matter with the poor fellow ? " " He thinks he knows all about the Russian situ- ' ation." Now, that is a perfect statement of the situation, in my judgment. ~\Vhen I have said this, you can see that I do not think' that I know all about it. Then I say this, also, that if I do not know ' more about it than any other allied representative — even though that ' may seem arrogant — I wasted my time. I had the best window or Out- ' look of any allied representative in Russia. I worked for three months, - sincerely and honestly, constantly, with Kerensky, and I worked; for six months with the revolutionary soviet government authorities,' and I was trying to keep my feet on the ground all the time and to ' see facts, and not to be stampeded by rumor or the unfounded ;| opinion of others, and I tried to serve the allied Governments and the Russian Government and people from day to day, and I alti ready to meet the day of judgment on what I did. I doubtless inade mis- takes, as all people do. I doubtless made misjudgments. But on the' whole, the history of the situation has vindicated my position. As soon as I came out I put the facts as I understood them before ' the Government. I hoped the Government would not enter into the enterprise of intervention. I believed that at that time, in the situ- ation and under the circumstances, present and prospective, it was^ doomed to fail. I thought that economic cooperation would save the , raw materials and economic powet of Riissia for the allied cause. ^ Intervention was decided on; As soon as it occurred T went to niy place in the South, so that I might not be constantly under the pres- sure of spealiing on the Russian question. ' You know from thefamfe that I arx-ived back in this country I wag front-page news, and yaa: know that up to this time there hasTseen nb single authorized state- ment from me, written or spoken. I have tried ^;o keep' faith with the obligations of the situation as they existed. I went down there • BOLSECEVlk ' IpeopagAnda. ' 8 31' and t^uried myself in the South, because I said that even to tell the truth a,bout Russia now is unfair to our Governnaent and the cause of the allies. I did not speak. I have been censured and condemned as cowardly because I would not speak. When certain docimients ' came out people wanted me to tell what I knew or thought about them, and have clamored for me to do so, but I have refused, and I have taken my share of abuse. When the armistice was signed I said, " My duty is to see that no more American boys and Russian men and peasants are killed bs- cause of false interpretation of this Russian situation," and I came back and tried to find out what the policy of the Government would be, and we worked to get light on our policy in Russia and failed ; we seemed drifting helplessly in the situation; and then 'certain Sen- ators of the United States asked that we might be advised about our Eussian policy, and the effort was made to get it out into the open ; and now at last I have been privileged to meet here with your ex- traordinary courtesy and to make the statement that I should like to make, in this official group. I have told the truth as nearly as I Iniow it. I will now meet the questioning of the committee and of counsel to the best of my ability. I thank you. Senator Overman. Maj. Humes, have you any questions to ask? Mr. Humes. Mr. Robins, with a view of a clearer understanding, perhaps, of several of the statements that have been made, I would like to ask you some questions. You have, on repeated occasions re- ferred to the 7 per cent and to the 93 per cent. Are we to under- stand by that that it is your impression that the Bolsheviki are 9B per cent of the people of Russia, or is the line between the 7 and the 93 per cent simply a line between the great masses of the people and those who were connected with the former government of the Czar's regime ? Mr. Robins. Rather the latter, Mr. Humes, but with this effort to clarify. Mr. Humes. Yes. Mr. Robins. Men have said to me, "Robins, you do not pretend to say for a moment that the mass of the peasants care about those formulas or are for them : that they have any real articulation of mind about them?" I said, "No; I would not say that. I would say that of the peasant gi^oup, of 84 per cent, there were not more than 5 or 6 per cent that were conscious at all of the formulas. Those persons are, however, the leaders of the masses. What I would mean is this, that. in Russia. there was practically 93 per cent who would either work with the Bolsheviki and their program or would not, worl? against it; that they were inert when they were not actively with it, and that the leaders believed in the formulas and carried . the mass of the people with them." Mr. Humes. Are we to understand you, then, as saying that; prpbahly not over 3 per cent of the 93 per cent are conscious of the' cause they are advocating? Mr. Robins. No, sir ; I said about 5 or 6 per cent of the '84 per ' cent who are peasants were conscious, with the formulas in their minds,, and that this 5 per cent were the lea,ders of the groups in. the - Soviets who carried the masses with them. Kiner per cent of the. 832 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGAKDA. remainder of the Russian people are proletarian workers in the* cities and mills and mines. There are perhaps 90 per cent of that 9 per cent who are formula men; that is, are conscious socialist revolutionists. You see, the revolutionary proletariat in the cities practically embrace the work- ingmen in the factories to a very large degree, and that group are taught these formulas and are very largely conscious. You will find here and there a group that is not, but the great mass were conscious of the formulas. Senator Overman. Assuming, that to be true, as you say, that 93 per cent are in favor of these formulas, more or less, and they stand for them ; yet what per cent of the Russian people favor the admin- istration as carried out by Lenine and Trotzky — what we call the Bolshevik government, as it is? Mr. Robins. It would be hard to say that. May I go away from that question to what I think will be to your minds an informing fact, and to every .mind here ? Lenine issued at once the decree for the land distribution, which was the most important single thing in the mind of the peasant mass. The thing that the Russian peasant wants more than anything else is land. Lenine issued this decree, but with extraordinary wisdom, it seems to me, did not distribute the land on the basis of superior wisdom at Moscow, but he arranged that the distribution should be made by the local Soviets in each considerable division or division of considerable size and homogeneity. In these Soviets the ques- tion of how to divide the lands taken from the landlords — ^it was not all taken from landlords. A hundred and thirty-odd million was taken from the state and special Czar lands. Senator Sterling. And church lands? Mr. Robins. And church lands. They said, "We will distribute it in this way," and they adopted their local method of distribution after discussion, and by final majority vote in the local Soviets made the actual distribution to the peasants of the community. On that decision they hold their title to the land through the soviet, not through the soviet at Moscow but through their local soviet. Now, Senators, they have cultivated the soil for a year, for one season, and they have eaten the fruit of their own labors, from land that they now call their own ; that is, from land which they had the right to cultivate without paying any landlord rent. They do not care anything about the actual title in fee. What they want is the right to cultivate it and not pay rent to a landlord. They have done that and they have eaten the fruit of their labor. The land is theirs, through the soviet. Will the peasants of Russia fight for the instrumentality, the government or power, that has given them- the land and that guarantees their title? I simply leave that with you as a reason why in every one of the localities where the reaction has started it has been defeated, not by foreign rifles, not by rifles from Moscow or Petrograd, but by the local rifles of the peasants fighting for the local soviet, which meant the land; and whether Germans come in from the Ukraine against the Red Guard revolu- tionary forces or Ukrainian Rada battle against the soviet power or whether the White Guards come down from Finland, or whether it was in Siberia or wherever it was, you found the local community BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 833 arrayed against the effort to overthrow the soviet; not that they had any great enthusiasm for the formulas as spoken at Moscow, possibly; not because they thought that they had administered things any too well ; but because " this is where we get our land " ; and, sirsj that is the power of the soviet; and also it is because I had sensed that thing that I risked my opinion and position against great authority that the soviet would endure and last away beyond the period given for it, stated for it as the longest term of life by those studying the facts from an intelligent viewpoint of the old order but not getting contact with the present facts and people outdoors. Senator Overman. Eealizing that is true, Mr. Robins, and I have no doubt you are stating what you believe to be true, I can not under- stand why it is that we find it testified here by eyewitnesses that there is this reign of terror. If that be true, how do you account for this reign of terror? Mr. Robins. I would account for it by this statement, that cer- tainly up to the time I left Russia the violence that took place or was alleged to have taken place, and I have read many accounts since I got back, very largely is false. I went through the situation, I had my eyes open, I tried to get facts as I went along. I had to act and to put other people's lives in the issue. I was trying to know the facts. Up until I left Russia there had been no such thing as any general terror in Russia, in my judgment. Senator Nelson. I want to ask you a question in that connection. Mr. Robins. Yes, Senator. Senator Nelson. Do you know anything about how the so-called red guard — ^you know what I mean by that Mr. Robins. Yes. Senator Nelson (continuing) . Was organized, and what elements helped to organize it ; what it was composed of ? Mr. Robins. The red guard was in the main composed of working men in the industrial cities, and they were factory operatives and laborers. Senator Nelson. Did it not include many criminals? Mr. Robins. Doubtless there were some criminals among them. Senator Nelson. Were there not a great many Germans among them? Mr. Robins. Very few, in my judgment. Senator Nelson. Did not Germans help to organize it in the be- ginning? Mr. Robins. Not at all ; no, sir. ' Senator Nelson. In your judgment they had absolutely nothing to do with it? Mr. Robins. In my judgment nothing. Senator Nelson. In that you differ from almost everybody else. Mr. Robins. I am sorry it is so, but I have to report the truth as I saw it. Senator Nelson. Did you ever see the red guard take possession of buildings, there, and turn the occupants out and occupy them ? Mr. Robins. Yes. Senator Nelson. In Petrograd ? Mr. Robins. Yes. 85723—19 53 834 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. Did you see them confiscate the property and furniture of people who lived in those houses ? Mr. EoBiNS. I did. Senator Nelson. Did you see them stand people up and shoot them? Mr. EoBiNS. No, sir. Senator Nelson. You never saw anything of that kind? Mr. Robins. I never saw anybody shot. I know that people were shot, but I never happened to see anybody shot. Senator Nelson. You knew that the red guard killed a good many people, did you not ? Mr. Robins. Yes; I knew they killed some people, Senator. Senator Nelson. But you think they were rather moderate in that; is that your view ? Mr. Robins. At the risk of great misjudgment, may I say this, that up to the time I left Russia the thing that was constantly in my mind, again and again, was the lack of vindictiveness, was the lack of actual destruction of life and property, under the circumstances. If it had been America, if it had been any other land I knew of where a mass mob, as it were, had taken poWer like that and had the rifles back of them, I should have expected vastly more of destruction. Senator Nelson.. Your view is that they were very moderate? Mr. Robins. That is, up to the time I left there. Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Robins. The wonder to me is that the people, after all these years, when they had taken the bit in their teeth and were running wild, should not have destroyed more people and property. Senator Nelson. When did you leave Russia ? Mr. Robins. I left Vladivostok the 1st of June. Senator Nelson. Nine or ten months ago ? Mr. Robins. Yes ; I had six months of Bolshevik rule. Senator Nelson. We have had good Americans here who have been over there on business, and who were put in prison, and who saw men from time to time led out, with every evidence that they were killed and disposed of. You have seen nothing of it ? Mr. Robins. . No, sir. Senator Nelson. What part of the country did you percolate in? Mr. Robins. I percolated pretty well all over. Senator Nelson. You went down into the Ukraine? Mr. Robins. Yes. Senator Nelson. Were you in Kiev ? Mr. Robins. No, sir. Senator Nelson. Were you at Samara ? Mr. Robins. No, sir. Senator Nelson. Were you at Perm ? Mr. Robins, No, sir. I was at Ekaterino-Slav and Kharkov, in southern Russia ; in Siberia twice — across twice — in Petrograd and environs, Moscow and environs, and Vologda. Senator Nelson. Did you go down the Volga or the Dneiper or the Dneister? Mr. Robins. No, sir. ISenator Nelson. Were you in Little Russia or White Russia? Mr. Robins. I was in White Russia. BOLSHEVXK-PKOPAGANDA; 835';: Senator Nelson. Did you not confine most of your work and opera- tions to the big cities— Petrograd and Moscow ? Mr. EoBiNS. Yes. Mr. Nelson. And get your impressions from that ? Mr. Robins. To a very considerable degree ; but I went twice pretty well all over Russia. Senator Nelson. Did you go to the country and interview . the peasants in their mirs ? Mr. Robins. I went into the country and interviewed them in their fiTOUpS. Senator Nelson. What is the difference? You know the system of land distribution that prevailed, of the mirs ; the communal sys- . tern? That was the right to use the land, was it not? Mr. Robins. Yes. Senator Nelson. That was assigned by the mir, always ? Mr. Robins. Yes. Senator Nelson. That was the system that prevailed under the. Czar's government, was it not? . Mr. Robins. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. Wherein does this present system of the soviet,, this Trotzky and Lenine government, differ from that? Does not the state take hold of the land and own it, and does it confer any other right upon the man that cultivates it than the right that the peasants got; in the inirs— that is, simply the right to use the land ? Mr. Robins. In the main- — - Senator Nelson (continuing). With no title? They are not even tenants hy lease. Is hot that true ? Mr.'RoBiNs. In a way. The distribution was made in that way by som6 of the Soviets. .j'Sehator Nelson. So that that is simply an application; of the mir system, that has prevailed in Russia for years, and years, by this new soviet go.vernment to all the lands of Russia ? -Miv Robins. That is it, very largely. Senator Nelson. They have confiscated it. Mr. Robins. Very largely. ; ' Senator Nelson. They have confiscated the crown lands and the church, lands and the lands of the big proprietors, and if you read their decree literally they have confiscated the mir lands, too. Mr. Robins. Very true. Senator Nelson. And made them State lands? ;-Mr. Robins. Very true. ■Senator Nelson. So that it is practically, impossible now under their decree for a Russian peasant to acquire title to a foot of land. Is not that true ? ' Me. Robins. I would not think that was quite true, sir. ■ Senator Nelson. I mean to acquire a fee title to it? Mr. Robins. I think there were certain local Soviets that distributed the fee, but very little in relatibn' to'the total, and very small quan- tities in each jurisdiction. Senator Nelson. That may have been the case in the past. ';MxEoBiNS. No ; I mean now,. Senator Nelson. But no.w,,under this decree, all the land in Russia isnationalized, is it not,, and made the property of the State ? That is the way the decree reads, is it not ? : 836 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGA^STDA. Mr. KoBiNS. That is the theory of the national decree. Senator Nelson. Is not that the way the decree reads? Mr. EoBiNs. The national decree, Senator. Senator Xelson. All the lands are in the government, and nobody else can get any interest or title in those except the men that cultivate them, and they can only get the use of the land so far as they cultivate it. Is not that the whola of. it? Mr. Robins. That is the general decree. • Senator Nelson. Now, would you like to have that system applied to America or any other country ? Mr. EoBiNS. Under no circumstances at all. I would do my best to prevent it. Senator Nelson. Would it not be more of an encouragement to a Russian peasant to say to him, " You can get title to your little farm, build your house, and cultivate the land, and make a farm of it, and you will become the absolute owner " ? Would not that be more legiti- mate and encouraging? Mr. EoBiNS. It certainly would be to us. Senator Nelson. And why, then, if you believe in that doctrine, do you preach in favor of the soviet gospel? Mr. EoBiNS. I have never preached to anyone, in a single instance, either in Russia or America or anywhere or any time, in favor of the soviet form of government. Senator Nelson. Now, I got this impression. I will tell you the impression that you have left on my mind. Mr. Robins. Yes, Senator. Senator Nelson. The impression from your whole talk is that our Government has made a mistake in not entering into some kind of an alliance with this new government, the Bolshevik government, of Russia ; that at all events, to use your own terms, they ought to have entered into an economic alliance with it. Mr. Robins. That is absolutely right. Senator. That is it. Senator Nelson. Now, you think our Government has made- a great mistake in not entering into association and cooperation with this soviet government? That is your theory, is it not? Mr. Robins. Within the terms as stated, absolutely so. Senator Nelson. Yes. That is your theory, and you think our Government ought to cooperate, then, with them in carrying out their land program and their socialistic program? Mr. Robins. Not' at all, Senator. It does not follow, at all. Senator Nelson. What should we cooperate with them in, do you think — simply in introducing a new government into the country ? Mr. Robins. In a measure, Senator. Senator Nelson. That would be your cooperation? All you would want our Government to cooperate in would be in sending American goods there, and you would not want our Government to cooperate with them in establishing the principles of the soviet government in their land system ? Mr. Robins. Absolutely right. Senator Nelson. So that, boiled down, all there is in your gosptel of cooperation is simply this, that we should cooperate with them m order to build up our import trade into that country? Is not that the sum and substance of it? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 837 Mr. Robins. As I have stated to you, my object was, at the time 1 started, to prevent raw materials from going from Russia into the central empires ; to keep Russia from being dominated by Germany, jmd to let our Government and the allies get the benefit of the Russian economic situation. Senator Nelson. Do you think that the peasants there and the proletariat, who were connected with this Lenine and Trotzky gov- erniHfint, were Tworrying o^^er the importation of sugar and coal aiid dJ and textiles from this country, or werjs t-hey worrying over the land system and taking and distributing the land, and taking pos- session of the factories and the banks and attempting to run them 'i Mr. Robins. Their fundamental desire was for land; but, Sen- ator Senator Nelson. Do you think you could have made an impression upon the Bolshevik doctrine by preaching your gospel of American importations ? Mr. Robins. I think we did make an impression on it. I think that the modification of the decree in the Harvester case and the modification of the decrees in the case of the two banks shows that there was an actual helpful influence in the situation. Senator Nelson. To sum up your doctrine, if I understand you right, our Government ought to cooperate and associate with them in order to build up our foreign tracle connection with that country, but you do not believe that our Government ought to cooperate with them in any manner in establishing the socialistic land system or industrial system ? Mr. Robins. Absolutely right. Senator. That is the situation, in so many words. Senator Nelson. So that you would limit your cooperajtion en- tirely to building up American trade with their country ? Mr. Robins. Yes; and preventing Russian people from starving to death. Senator Overman. You have observed, I suppose, that there is a good" dear of Bolshevik propaganda in this country for the overthrow of our Government and you think that it ought to be stopped where it is? Mr. Robins. Yes. Senator Overman. You have said that. How would you stop it? I want to get your views on it. Mr. Robins. I think if this committee makes a report on just what Bolshevism is, on what the soviet program is; if the report of this committee is circulated and makes clear to the minds of America what is involved in this class materialist economic force — social control — that the American public mind, everywhere understanding it, in vast majority would repudiate that whole program. I think that if we answer to whatever there is of economic wrong in our own situation by intelligent legislation through Congress and the several States; if we answer the economic wrongs which fester and make centers of resentment and indictment against our institutions, make breeding spots, we can meet and answer the agitation and unrest. Take the I. W. W. All these troubles between them and the regular trades- unionists are the result of industrial sore spots. The troubles with the I. W. W. sprout and grow always on the basis of some economic '838 .BOLSHEVIK PtlOPAGAlfDA. wrong in some place that has been left over, as it were, like the lum- ber camps or the copper mines, etc. Senator Nelson. May I ask you there — this is very interesting is there a kinship and resemblance between the I. W. W. and the Bolshevik doctrines? Mr. EoBiNS. In some of the doctrines, yes, sir; undoubtedly so. But, Senator,. if we meet by a real, intelligent reconstruction policy these left-over spots, and take from the workman's table the specters that I as a workman knew, the fear of unemployment, accident, and sickness, which can be protected by intelligent systems of pensions and insurance, and safeguai'cl old age and premature death — if those three fears are banished from the workingman's table — we will have laborers and their families implicated in the security and permanence of the Government, because the Government is bacliing him at thase points. Then you have given him a situation in which this land, being for him thoroughly worth living in, is worth dying for and is worth protecting at all points. Senator Overman. You mean, legislate for the betterment of the workingman. Mr. Robins. Yes, sir ; and the general social situation, whatever it may be. Senator Overman. What would you advise in legislation of pains and penalties to stop this propaganda system in America, or would you do it by jjublicity? How would you correct that evil? You admit it is an evil. Mr. Robins. I would study that evil. I do not think, for instance, that a law against carrying the red flag in a procession is very eifec- tive. I think they would take a green flag very soon. I think it is superficial, and this sort of hysteria does no good. Senator Overman. I agree with you that far. But what would you think of a law preventing the carrying of the red flag where there is an organization to overthrow the Government. Would you stop the caixying of a red flag if it was inspiring people to go and overthrow the Governmenf? I am asking you that because there is a bill now pending for that purpose. Mr. Robins. I would prefer not to do it that way. Senator.^ I should be doubtful of any real result. If there was any organization anywhere that was directed toward the overthrow of the American Government by force, every man who recommended the overthrow of the Government by force I should arrest, indict, try, and convict. Senator Overman. The first section of the bill is one prohibiting the carrying of the red flag by any association of people who are organized for the purpose of overthrowing the Government by force, and the second section is to punish anyone along the lines you sug- gest. Senator Nelson. Here is one side of the question about carrying the red flag. Where a procession of men carry a red flag, arid they are not repressed by law, people will resent it and take the law into :4heir own hands, and it will lead to a breach of the peace. That has occurred frequently during the period of the war here where men -carried such banners, or where they were in processions opposed to -war. People would resent it and take the law into their own hands. rNow, to my idea, where men carry flags, if it is simply a social mat- BOLSHEVIIi PKQPAGANDA. 839 ter, it is. only a flag, but where they carry a flag and indicate that they want an upheaval and overthrow of the Government by force, in that case, because of its tendency to lead to a breach of the peace, on that account I think it ought to be suppressed. Mr. EoBiNS. It might be so while the war was on, but now that the war is over the feeling would be less, would it not? Senator Nelson. I do not know. I have in my room a mass of pub- lications with red covers and in red type, circulars and papers preaching the Bolshevik doctrine, the most radical form of it, a re- volt against this Government in America by force, by violence, by men who do not believe in the Government, by men who call the laboring men in this country nothing but serfs and slaves of capital- ists, and all that. Now, do you believe in the free circulation of that kind of literature in the mails ? Mr. KoBiNS. Of course not. Senator Nelson. Let me tell you another thing. We have now a law on our statute books prohibiting the sending of poison by mail. If we have a law against what I would call — it may be a bad expres- sion — ^physical poison, why should we not have a law against the sending of moral poison, the kind I have stated ? Mr. EoBiNS. We ought to have. Senator. The only question in that legislation is. Where do you draw your line between legitimate propa- ganda of ideas and the protection of the commonwealth? I believe that wherever there is an appeal to force in this country to overthrow the institutions of this country with that kind of printed material or by the spoken word, whatever it may be, it is clearly within the law, and should be suppressed by the law. But our doctrine is rather clear in our past experience that we are careful about constructive con- spiracy and constructive crime in order to protect the liberty of speech and of the press. Senator Nelson. You are undoubtedly right. Mr. EoBiNS. And therefore we say, as it nas been said in the Su- preme Court, that we will allow a man to make a public statement, to make a speech, and we will not suppress the publication of it, but if it has the result that having made a public statement or having published a statement, there do come from it results that are crimi- nal, then we reach back and fine or imprison that person responsible for the criminal result. That has seemed to be a sound method in our working out of our principles, so that anything that takes from that principle of freedom is taking away something of the right of the free people. Senator Nelson. That supposes that the crime may be committed, and you would only punish the criminal after it has been committed. Mr. Robins. Quite so. Senator Nelson. We have a principle of the old common law that if a man threatens to kill you, you need not wait for him to attack you, but can appear and have him put under bonds. Why should we not meet the evil before it has been accomplished? Why should we not repress it ? Mr. Robins. Only for this reason. If you had bureaucratic offi- cials enforcing general repression, so much under their own wills may be done that really limits the freedom of speech and of the press. We have preferred in the past to take those evils that flow from this 840 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. misuse of liberty as less evil than would be the restriction of the liberty and freedom of the press. Senator Nelson. We have four classes of laws on our statute books. One relates to what we call fraud propaganda — frauds attempted through the mail. Then we have the repression of lotteries. Senator Overman. And poison. Senator Steeling. And obscene literature. Senator Nelson. Then we have those laws relating to obscene literature of all kinds, and then we have those in regard to poisons and drugs of all kinds that are deleterious. We have four classes over which the post office has jurisdiction. Now, I have not kept much track of it, Mr. Robins, except in one case, as to the oldest one of the laws, that in respect to frauds. I have seen the great value of the Post Office Department in protecting our people against these villainous frauds that are perpetrated by educated and intelligent scoundrels. Now, there is another thing I would like to hear your views of. We had a witness here yesterday, a Scotchman by birth, brought up in England, who claimed to be a Presbyterian and to have affili- ated with the Quakers. He was a pacifist and a conscientious objector, and he made this statement, and I want to see your views on it. He said there was more humanity in the soviet government and their plan of government than there was in Christianity as it existed in the world. What do you think of it ? Mr. Robins. I will absolutely dissent from the whole thing. Senator Nelson. How ? Mr. Robins. I disagree absolutely. Senator Nelson. I thought you would. Mr. Robins. I have no sympathy. Senator, with the pacifist non- resistant position. I laiow nothing more alien to what I think is necessary to preserve our real institutions. I believed so much in this war that while we were drifting I went to Canada and stumped Canada for recruits before our country went into the war. Senator Overman. Have they suppressed the press over there — the Bolshevik government — have they suppressed the press or any of the newspapers over there? Mr. Robins. They did, yes. Kerensky suppressed the Bolshevik papers, and as soon as the Bolsheviki got in power they suppressed the Kerensky press, and the press of the privileged class was cut off for a while. May I bring to your minds a matter which will show the soviet situation better than anything else, a matter which happened on last Easter Sunday in soviet Russia? From time long past it has been a rule — I think it was a decree secured by the church — that when- ever there was any publication, periodical, or paper published on Easter Sunday it should begin with a headline in Russian that, translated, means " Christ is risen," as a recognition of religion. On the first Easter Sunday in the soviet republic, I was challenged by this — and it gave me a sense of the whole setting more than ahnost any one incidental thing that had happened — ^by the fact that all the papers of the dead church, all the papers of the dead state, all of the papers of the dead social order, that were there published on that day had the Russian Avords, " Christ is risen " at the top, and every BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 841 one of the soviet papers had this headline, " One hundred years ago to-day Karl Marx was born." The absolute issue was drawn between a betrayed state, a betrayed church, a betrayed social order that had brought injustice and oppres- sion to folks' lives until they were ready to turn to this gospel of Marx, of this very materialistic economic gospel, believing that it was really greater than the Gospel of the Gallilean, and I know of no single instance that affected me more with utter sorrow and regret, ^nd the wonder of how far it would go, and the desire that we might not be permitted to develop that class cleavage in my own land. Senator Nelson. Do you know anything about Mr. Sisson and the papers he got there ? Mr. Robins. I knew him real well. Senator Nelson. Who was he, and what was his mission over there? Mr. Robins. He was a gentleman who was sent by the Government, from the Committee of Public Information, to find out what we were doing, or trying to do, to stabilize the' Kerensky government ; but when he got there the Bolshevik government had come into power. Senator Nelson. Did he get hold of those papers that have been published ? I refer to those papers Mr. Robins. Yes, Senator ; and if it is the pleasure of the committee I will speak about them. But I understand that Mr. Sisson is not in this country, and it has always been my practice to " give a man a chance for his white alley." Senator Nelson. I do not want you to go into his character. I ahi not after that. Do you know about those papers that he captured there and turned in to our Government ? Mr. Robins. Yes ; but even if I make a statement and do not refer to him personally, if I refer to the facts of this matter it would re- flect, inevitably. I feel not disposed to do it, for a variety of reasons, yet I will do exactly as the committee desires. Probably the com- mittee has not spent much time on those papers. Senator Nelson. I do not think we have spent any time. Mr. Robins. Would it not rather be a more severe judgment, pos- sibly, and condemnation, 10 years from to-day for it to be true that anybody should go to Russia Senator Nelson. Perhaps so. Mr. Robins. And be there — ^he was there for four months and he saw this wonderful thing transpire, of 180,000,000 people trying to throw off this oppression of centuries, with the bit in their teeth, brutal and all that, yet struggling from the darkest tyranny toward freedom, even though blinded by the unaccustomed light, and he got the cooperation of that government at certain important points, and then left that land denouncing that government, and all he got out of that wonderful experience was certain documents and a German agent theory of the first fundamental economic revolution. Senator Nelson. It might be better, as you say, not to ventilate it now. Let me ask you another question : Do you not think there is danger, an existing danger and continued danger, of the commercial and industrial invasion of Russia by Germany ? Mr. Robins. Yes; precisely. ■842 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. And do you not think that danger will continue as long as the present disorganized state of government prevails there ? Mr. EoBiNS. You have put your finger on one of the continuing reasons why I to-day think that an intelligent commission should go into Eussia to deal with the situation, because of this very economic vacuum which exists at the top of the economic life of Kussia. This vacuum will be filled either by us or by German intelligence and cooperation from Germany, and in that event the central powers will run that show in a very great way for a long time; or else we are gQing to run it. Which shall it be ? I would like for us to run it. Senator Overman. You think Germany will run it instead of us? Mr. KoBiNs. I would like Senator Overman. Your idea is to have a commission go there now and look into the situation to preserve our economic position ? Mr. Robins. Exactly so. Senator Nelson. You know the plan and the program covered by the 14 points of the President involves the establishment of Poland as an independent government? You know that? Mr. Robins. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. In order to establish Poland they would have to take Austrian Poland, Russian Poland, and German Poland and give it all to one state, would they not? Mr. Robins. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. Is not that apt to breed a good deal of friction both on the east and the west? Mr. Robins. I think it would breed a good deal of friction on the west, but not much on the east. Senator Nelson. You think the Russian Bolshevik government favor an independent Poland? Mr. Robins. I should say yes, sir, on theory, provided it be a gen- uine Polish unit. Their doctrine of self-determination has been ap- plied even in the Ukraine. It was applied in Siberia; It was applied in Finland. Thejr are committed to it. Individuals might oppose it, l)ut the soviet mmd in Russia believes genuinely, in my judgment, in self-determination of nationalities. Senator Nelson. So they would be in favor of the independence of Finland ? Mr. Robins. Yes, sir ; in my judgment they are in favor of the inde- pendence of Finland, but are not in favor of the domination of Fin- land by Germany or an-^^ foreign land for imperialistic purposes. Senator Nelson. But German influence has been expelled from there. The Germans were backing the Red Guard there. Mr. Robins. No, Senator; the White Guards were opposing the Red Guards. The White Guards were backed by Germany. Senator Nelson. Now, they have organized a government — I for- -get the name, but they have organized a government now — under Gen. Mannerheim, who is at the head of the present government for the independence of Finland and is anti-Bolshevik, and one of the problems connected with independent Poland is the question of giving them an outlet at Danzig. What do you think about that matter? Danzig is on the "line between east and west Prussia and those coun- tries, east and west Prussia, are mainly settled by a German popu- BObaHEYIK PROPAGANDA. 843 lation, and to give the Poles, an outlet by way of the Vistula River at Danzig, do you not think that is apt to create a great deal of friction? Mr. EoBiNS; I should. think' it. might, but I do not have intimate knowledge enough to have any opinion of value there. Senator Overman. These officers, what became of. them? Have ihey all' been killed ? ' ' .; :■ Mr. EoBiNS. Who? Senator Overman. I mean the Russian officers. Mr. Robins. Many of them are emigrants out of the country, and probably a very great number have gone back into the soviet and are now leading the soviet troops, have accepted the soviet situa- tion. I read at oiie time a statement from the soviet war depart- ment that there were so many major generals, and so many other officers — 7,000 officers in all of the old regime — now engaged in lead- ing the soviet forces in Russia to-day. Based on the best infor- mation I have been able to get there is much truth in this statement. For instance, here is this young man who was our interpreter, who was a Cossack soldier of noble birth, a splendid young man, who joined the soviet later on, saying, " That is the only thing in Russia, and I am now with the soviet." May I say that the fear of foreign domination that grew up in Russia after I left there is quite an understandable thing? If there is one thing more definite than another in Russia it is the resentment and fear and the age-long hostility to the yellow race. White Slavic Russia, Christian Russia, had fought the Tartar through gen- erations, had fought the Mongols, and had been menaced' by the Japanese as they thought again and again. They said, " Will the great, free democracy of America get behind the heathen yellow dogs against Russia ? " I do not agree with that designation, but it was frequently used in the Russian press. When we started in with in- tervention, they said we were trying to get markets in Russia. They said, " I told you so. They are coming to back these Japanese ; im- perialist robbers; American soldiers and flags behind Japanese flags and bayonets, and are trying to rob Russia." Then they also said that the allied forces were invited there by the Russian bourgeois. Therefore a terror began against the intelligent and propertied classes, and naturally a number of those were killed by a terror that was wholly rmnecessary, and some of the best men in Russia prob- ably were killed. Senator Nelson. But do you not know that it has been testified to by a number of witnesses that they have a great many Chinese in the' Red Army ? It has been testified to. Mr. Robins. I have seen the statement. It may be true ; but there were not any up to the time I left. Senator Nelson. I will tell you where they got them. They got a lot of Chinese as laborers to Wild the Murman railroad, that rail- road up to Murman and the Kola Peninsula. They had a lot of Chinese laborers then and they were left in the country, and they have incorporated a large share of those laborers in the Red Guard. Mr. Robins. It may be so, sir, but I would question it. Senator Nelson. It has been testified that they have a lot of Chinese in the Red Guard. 844 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Sterling. You left European Russia in May, 1918, I be- lieve ? Mr. KoBiNS. Yes, sir. Senator Sterling. You have described conditions up to the time you left. Colonel? Mr. Robins. Yes. Senator Sterling. Have you kept track of conditions since vou left? Mr. Robins. As near as I could, but ■without any real assurance as to the accuracy of such information as I have got. May I illustrate it? I was here and met Senator Hitchcock and some other Members of the Senate and was talking, when a gentleman came into the con- ference where we were and put a paper on the table, and he said: " What have you got to say to that ? " What he meant was the head- line of the paper. You may remember that the last part of June or the first part of July it was reported that Lenine and Trotzky were fleeing toward Murmansk from Moscow, and that the soviet govern- ment had been overthrown, and Kaladines was coming in with one division at one gate and Korniloff with one division at another gate had captured Moscow and overthrown the soviet. " Well," I said. " all I have got to say is this : The last two people in Russia I would expect to run away would be Lenine and Trotsky, and the last direc- tion that they would go would be Murmansk, because they would be hung as soon as they got there. As to the rest of it, Kaladines killed himself on the porch of his home at Rostov on the Don three months before I left Russia, and KornilofI was killed by his own soldiers about 30 days before I left Russia, so I doubt their leading any divisions anywhere. With these modifications, the report is probably true." Senator Steeling. What is your opinion with regard to the condi- tions, first, in regard to the power of the Bolshevik government? Does it possess a greater or less power than it had at the time you left? Mr. Robins. All that I can get, and I have dealt as best I can with what intelligence I have, tells me thafthe so\aet government is stronger, especially since foreign rifles came in and it has been able to capitalize the national spirit to protect itself agaiiret foreign invasion. Then I think probably they have modified a good many of their decrees. I do not care what a man's formula is, if he must get out and feed and clothe the people, he will modify his formula or give place to somebody else. Senator Sterling. From the accounts you have received, have dis- tress and starvation increased since you left, in Peti'ograd, Moscow, and elsewhere? i\Ir. Robins. I think they have increased in Petrograd; probably not in Moscow. Senator Sterling. Do you Icnow what the population of Petrograd is normally ? Mr. Robins. About 2,000,000. The war brought it up to something like 3,000,000. What it is now I do not Icnow. Senator Sterling. After the Bolsheviki moved in there, the popu- lation decreased gradually, did it not? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 845 Mr. Robins. I am sure it did, because they organized committees for sending people back to the villages. Here was the situation: Millions of people came up to the cities from the larger villages as the result of a foolish policy of Kerensky and the Czar's Govern- mentjwhich was to pay a larger or smaller amount for sustenance to the wives of families of soldiers in the army in relation to the cost of living in the different localities, without restriction upon residence. It varied on a sliding soa-le; In the cities they got more ; so the peasants left the villages, where they should have stayed, and came in in large numbers to Petrograd and Moscow. The Bolshevik govern- ment at once began an effort to demobilize those people, and try to get them back to the villages, and the police in some instances took them out by force. There was a considerable diminution in popula- tion in the first few months. Senator Overman. Did many of the bourgeois leave from fear ? Mr. Robins. Great numbers, sir. Senator Steeling. The population was actually diminished more than one-half? Mr. EoBiNS. I do not know the proportion. Senator. It was dimin- ished a great deal. Senator Nelson. You have kept track of Russia since you left? Do you not think that if they had the means of distribution, by boat, water and rail, there would be enough bread — enough wheat — in the whole country to supply themselves with, if they could distribute it and divide it up ? Mr. Robins. Surely, Senator. Senator Nelson. There is no need of importing anything there? What they need is transportation ? Mr. Robins. Transportation and manufactured products. As soon as we sent troops out into Siberia it prevented them from getting any- thing from that section, and as soon as the Ukrainians shut off the supply from Odessa two great fields of food supply were cut off. Senator Nelson. One of the greatest fields of supply is southern Russia — the Ukraine and the black belt. That is the great grain- producing country. Mr. Robins. Quite right. Senator Nelson. And they have there, unless it has been destroyed in this revolutionary condition, a good supply of grain, if it could be distributed. Mr. Robins., I think so. Andthe Jast.crop in Siberia is the best they have had in years. Senator Nelson. Yes; Siberia is good. And in Siberia they have more dairy products than in the Ukraine. Mr. Robins. Yes, sir. Senator Steeling. Do you know how successful the authorities at Petrograd, for example, were in supplying the people of Petrograd with food supplies ? Mr. Robins. There was a failure everywhere, Senator. This eco- nomic breakdown was the most significant underlying fact in the Russian situation; but I think following the Bolsheviki revolution there was more grain in Petrograd than under Kerensky. Senator Steeling. Do you know of their efforts to procure food from peasants? 846 BOLSHEVIK propaganda: Mr. KoBiNS. Yes. Senator Steeling. Do you know of their taking food by force from the peasants ? Mr. Robins. In some instances. But, Senator, there is an illumina- tion of that event. There was and is in Russia, in the peasant villages what is called the "fist," the peasant, speculator in grain, who buys at a low price from the grain-growing peasants and stores it for a higher price. The taking of gTain by force was in the main from these speculators, and in that they had more or less the laughing cooperation of the other peasants. In other words, the working peasants had got theirs, and when the speculator was exploited, there were only one, two, or three, or half a dozen men in the village friendly to the " fist," the poor peasants were rather pleased that he was forced to give up the hoarded grain. Senator Overman.: Is it not true that these peasants refused to sell wheat on account of the value of the money ? Mr. Robins. I imagine they did; and they tried to make distribu- tion in kind by barter, instead of money payments. Mr. Humes. Col. Robins, that is the point I want to get to: Are you familiar with the financial system of the government and the theory upon which they are manufacturing money — the use of the printing press so freely ? Mr. Robins. I knoAv something about it, Mr. Humes. Mr. Humes. Have you any decree or decret that has been issued on the subject of issuing paper money ? I have been trying to locate something on that subject and have not been able, as yet. Mr. Robins. I think I have among my papers some such decree, and if I have, I shall furnish it to you. Mr. Humes. Can you tell us in a general way what the regulation of the government is or the decree of the government on that subject is? In other words, has an unlimited supply of money been provided for, or is there a limit? Mr. Robins. I think it is limited by the printing press and the paper. But may I say to you, Mr. Humes, that the real intelligence of an informed financial mind could be gotten from some of these- gentlemen of the National City Bank, as I do not know and do not pretend to know finance intimately, and really I have not followed it with any real intelligence. Mr. Humes. They have not any decree on the subject? Mr. Robins. I should think they have. Mr. Humes. I thought maybe you would have that. Mr. Robins. I think I have, and I will turn it over to you. Mr. Humes. Their theory is that all it is necessary to do is to print the money and put it in circulation. It is based on no reserve or guaranty of any kind ? Mr. Robins. No; I would not say that it is, so far as I know; but L want to recognize my own ignorance. The gold in the state bank' and the platinum resources were always looked upon, in every confer- ence I had with the government in relation to the financial situation, as security for purchases abroad when it came up. • I never had any direct conference in relation to finances, but where it came up they said, " For foreign trade we have got to preserve our gold and plati- num resources, and certain other valuable raw materials, and in the BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 847" domestic situation we are going to use money of this kind for a while." But Lenine had planned premium or token money that was to repre- sent an exchange of products. Whether that was ever put into effect,. I do not know. It certainly was not up to the time I left Eussia. Mr. Humes. That Avas based upon products? It would simply be issued representing products, but not based upon the products as reserved to redeem the money ? Mr. EoBiNS. I will not be able to say about that. Mr. Humes. Is that not correct ? Mr. Robins. I do not know that I know enough about it to answer intelligently. Mr. Humes. Have you any idea about the amount of paper money issued by the government? Mr. Robins. No, sir; I have seen all kinds of estimates. I think there have been great quantities. Mr. Humes. A moment ago you referred to the fruit of the toil of the landowner or the land cultivator under the one year of Bolsheviki rule. Is it not a fact that the fruit of his year's toilwas either his grain, or a considerable amount of that paper money with which he could buy nothing, and that consequently he was without all of the other necessaries of life, with plenty of money but nothing to buy for that money ? Is not that the position that he has found himself in? Mr. Robins. Well, Mr. Humes, the fruit of his toil was, of course, his grain. If he sold it for rubles, then the fruit of his toil was rubles. If he sold it for products Mr. Humes. What sort of products? Mr. Robins. Factory products; for instance, thread, cloth — large' quantities of thread and cloth. Large quantities of that stuff were ■ sent down to the Ukraine and the grain districts for exchange for wheat and meat in cooperation with the soviet. Mr. Humes. About when was that? Mr. Robins. In April and May. Mr. Humes. For how long a period did those mills continue to operate ? Mr. Robins. Well, some were operating when I left Russia. How much longer I do not know. ; Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that about the only factory that is opferating at this time is that of the International Harvester Co. ? Mr. Robins. I do not think that is a fact. It certainh^ was not when I left Russia, and I have understood from such information : as I have been able to get that there are more of them. For instance, ' the munitions factory Mr. Humes. I want to include the munitions factory with the In- ternational Harvester factory. Is it not a fact that there are only ; two in operation ? Mr. Robins. I can not say as to that, sir. Mr. Humes. The munitions factory was being operated by the Government prior to the revolution. Mr. Robins. I could not answer. I do not know, sir. Mr. Humes. Therefore' the organization of that plant was a Gov- ernment organization eren before the revolution, so it was in a: different situation. , : ■ , 848 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. EoBiNs. If it was taken over by the Czar's government I am not so advised. Mr. Humes. Tliat is the testimony introduced here. Mr. Robins. It is probably true. Mr. Humes. What other decrees have you in your possession? Mr. Robins. I am not sure. I can not answer that. Mr. Humes. Will you furnish us with all the decrees you have? Mr. Robins. Yes; everything I have you may have, in relation to decrees. Mr. Humes. At the time you left Petrograd what became of the supplies of the Apierican Red Cross? Mr. Robins. You mean, when I .first left Petrograd? Mr. Humes. Into whose hands did they fall when you left Petro- grad and went to Moscow as a Red Cross officer ? Mr. Robins. Let me get what you mean. Do you mean when I left Russia or when I left Petrograd to go to Moscow? Mr. Humes. When you ceased to handle Red Cross supplies. Mr. Robins. I never ceased while I was in Russia. I was in com- mand of the American Red Cross organization after my appointment in November, 1917, at all times until I left Russia. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that the Bolshevik Government seized more than a thousand barrels of pork from the American Red Cross? Mr. Robins. The fact about the supplies is this — this is the thing that is being said. We brought down from Murmansk, Senators, four hundred thousand and odd cans of milk for the babies in Petro- grad, we brought down a considerable amount of groceries, and we brought down some medical supplies, and we stored them in a large warehouse in Petrograd, and put a Bolshevik guard around them, and we never lost a pound. In transit down from Murmansk two cars — possibly four, I would need to refresh my memory — of salted beef Senator Steeling. May I interject a question right there. Mr. Robins. Yes. Senator Sterling. Were the allied forces at Archangel or on the Murmansk coast at that time? Mr. Robins. Not in any force. Senator Steeling. There were allied forces there at that time ? Mr. Robins. No, sir; not at first. About March there came down from Murmansk a request to the soviet foreign office that it cooper- ate with the Murman soviet and that the Murman soviet be per- mitted to cooperate with the French and English. Lenine ordered it to cooperate with them, and it did. But I think our stuff was brought out before that took place. In January, when we started to bring down our stuff, Gen. Poole of the British economic mission said that it was perfectly impossible to move anything from Mur- mansk; that even if anything could be started it would be stolen along the road. Maj. Ward well was sent out and brought down everything, brought down practically all of our stuff, with less than 1 per cent loss. Some of it was thrown out on the shore and was stolen, but some of it was brought back. We brought it down to Petrograd and had it distributed under guard, through the local Soviets of Petrograd, to the babies of Petrograd, finishing the distri- bution along in May, starting some time in February. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 849 One car of meat was separated from the train along the line, but was later returned in good order. Senator Sterling. Was Maj. Ward well one of your Red Cross staff? Mr. Robins. Yes; Maj. Allen Wardwell was in charge of transpor- tation from Murmansk. Maj. Wardwell took command when J left. Maj. Thomas D. Thacher was secretary of the mission and had charge of distribution — was in general charge under my comniand. Mr. Humes. It is a fact, is it not, that there was a very considerable; amount of stores in the possession of the American Red Cross that had ,l]eei^| intended, for Poumania, ?^ Mr. 'Robins. Yes, sir. ^ '.,- . ,1 , .' ,•,,, Mr. Humes. What became of that ? , ; Mr.,PpBii^S- The Roumanian supplies that were in tho possession of the Red Cross in our warehouse and under our protection had been sent down to Jassy. There came a time when the representative of the Red Cross in Jassy thought we should not send more supplies down, that there was a question of hi& being able to handle and dis- tribute theni, and so on, and when there came, during a certain period, a breach between, the soviet government of Russia and the Rou- manian Government, under an order from Trotsky the stuff was held in our warehouse to await final liquidation of the conflict be- tween Roumania and the soviet government of Russia. In the deyelopinent of that situation there was a conflict of authority in Eoumania between a Bolsheviki group, a revolutionary group, and the old authority, the court group, the king and queen, and so on. In the conflict of authority, the debate going on, this stuff was held pending final settlement. After the situation in the Ukraine had de- veloped into a German situation, and any supplies that were sent, down there had a better chance of reaching Germany than anywhere else, I was in no eagerness to have the stuff so sent, and it finally was evacuated, if I am correct — and if I am not correct Maj. Allen Ward- well can correct me; he knows the exact situation— it was sent to Moscow and distributed there, and it was thought that that was a better distribution against the German power than to send it into what would probably be German hands. Mr, Humes. "^Vere thoge supplies turned over to the Bolshevik government ? Mr. Robins. They were taken by the Bolshevik government. Mr. Humes. They were taken by the Bolshevik government? Mr. Robins. Absolutely. Mr. Humes. During the time the Red Cross headquarters were still in Petrograd — during tbe time that you had a supply depot there, at least^was there any demand made by the American colony or any appeal made by the American colony for food ? , Mr. Robins. Yes. Mr. Humes. Did they succeed in getting food ? Mr. Robins. They did. Mr. Humes. Is it or is it not a fact that it was represented to the American colony when they were seeking food that the Red Cross had no supplies in Petrograd but had sent all their supplies to Moscow ? Mr. Robins. No, sir; it is an unqualified falsehood. 85723—19 54 850 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. Are you acquainted with Dr. Simons? Mr. Robins. I know Dr. Simons; yes, sir. Mr. Humes. Did he ever make an appeal in behalf of the American colony — ever appeal to you or any of your representatives? Mr. Robins. I think that he made an appeal that he and his organ- ization- should be used for distributing supplies, not only for the American colony but for others, and we, knowing the situation and acting in full knowledge of what I thought was the situation, re- fused to allow him to be the medium of distribution. 1 believed that our own organization was better. Mr. Humes. Did he not at that time make^an appeal to you for an issue to the American colony because of their dire want ? Mr. Robins. No ; he did not. Mr. Humes. And was it not represented to him at that time that all the supplies of the American Red Cross had been moved to Mos- cow, and that there were no supplies in Petrograd available? Mr. Robins. It was not. so far as I know. I was in Mo.scow i)roh- ably at that time. Mr. Humes. Col. Robins, you say that the slogan of the present government is the rule of the class, an appeal to the class? Mr. Robins. I so understand it. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that that appeal is made by not to ex- ceed 5 to 10 per cent of the people representing the Bolshevik party or government, as you term it, and that the rest of the people that acquiesce in the Bolshevik rule are simply acquiescing because of the terrorism, and because of fear ; and do you not think that the Rus- sian officers that you speak of and others who have become a part of the Red Guard have joined the Red Guard as the only means of get- ting food and the onl}' means of getting a living? Mr. Robins. I do not think that any of the supposititious state- ments of fact in that series of questions are true. Mr. Humes. Then you do not believe the testimony that has been produced here by a great number of very reputable witnesses ? Mr. Robins. I have not heard their testimony. Mr. Humes. As to their experiences and observations in different parts of Russia. Mr. Robins. I have not read their testimony, and do not know what they said. Mr. Humes. Do you know whether it is the fact that families of persons serving in the Red Guard are held as hostages in order to insure the conduct and loyalty of the soldier? Mr. Robins. I do not know it at all, sir. Mr. Humes. Do you say that that condition does not exist ? Mr. Robins. I do not know. But I say that it did not exist up to the time I left Russia, within my knowledge. Mr. Humes. It has been testified here that on one occasion 20 prisoners were taken out of the prison in Moscow and shot with- out a trial, and simply for the purpose of making room for some 26 prisoners that they had no place to incarcerate. That statement has been made by a gentleman who says that he was present and saw the occurrence. Do you question the correctness of that statement? Do you think that that was untrue? Mr. Robins. I do not know anything about it. It ought to be true if he was there and saw it. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 851 Senator Overman. I do not think that is the way to ask the ques- tion. Senator Hiram W. Johnson. I am not a member of the committee, but I want to submit that in any court you would not be permitted to ask the witness concerning testimony concerning which he knows nothing, whether the testimony of a certain witness is true or not ; not that it needs to be suggested so far as you are concerned here in this: committee. Mr. Humes. Col. Eobins, I understand you to say that during all of your experience in Russia you saw nothing of terrorism. Mr. Robins. I saw no organized terror, Mr. Humes. That a revo- lutionary situation should bring violence and killing of people is inevitable. I happened to see nobody stood up and shot. Senator Sterling. Did you hear, Col. Robins, of men being taken from prison under Red Guard escort, and, without any chance to be heard, and without any formal charge being made against them, shot? Mr. Robins. I heard that. Senator Sterling, and in every instance where I investigated it it proved to be false. I heard that the women of the women's battalion had been violated in a certain barracks after they had surrendered. I had it investigated, and, on the word of no less a person that Madame Turcova, it was repudiated absolutely. The air was full of rumors. If you chose to believe those, you could hear and believe anything, Senator. For instance, they arrested the head of the Russian Red Cross, a nobleman. They arrested the secretary of the Russian Red Cross. They were going to be shot overnight. I had heard that they had been shot. I went to the govei'nment and asked for their release. They showed me the evidence that purported to show that this pai'- ticular secretary of the Russian Red Cross had sent Russian Red Cross supplies to Kaledines and the leaders of the counter-revolution at Rostov, where there was an organized headquarters of the counter- revolution. I said, " Suppose that is all true. These men are Red Cross officials. I ask you, as the representative of the American Red Cross, to release them." They were both released. I have their letters of appreciation for my intervention. Senator Sterling. On the other hand. Col. Robins, we have the testimony of a witness here — apparently a most credible witness — who was in two different Russian prisons and talked with the men who were led out to be shot, and I think injbqth insta,nces,. but certainly in one — I am not quite sure as to both, but certainly in one — the man knew the hour at which he was to be led out to be shot, and begged that he might converse with the witness who testified to the fact until his time came, in order that he might pass hours that would otherwise be unendurable. Mr. Robins. Well, it may have all been true. Let me say, gentlemen of the committee, I will not be put in the position of defending vio- lence or crime wherever it has occurred. Let me say that I speak of the facts as tljey come to my mind. Let me give another instance. Why do I feel that there is a question in regard to these widespread stories of violence, and so on? I heard it all while I was there. It went on in the way of statement and counter-statement before I left. It did not differ greatly from the stories I hear here. I think there was a much more serious time after intervention than before. I think 852 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. we can understand why. But a certain Eussian colonel named Kol- pishnikoff is arrested and put in jail. He is found to have cablegrams that on the face of things indicate cooperation for service and relief to reactionary coujitery-revolutionary forces at Rostov on the Don. This colonel was an excellent person, in my j udgment. He was in favor of Korniloff, as most intelligent officers of that group were at the time. There came to Petrograd a request from the American Red Cross in Roumania asking that the American Red Cross in Petrograd send down to Rostov on the Don 80 automobiles or 60 automobiles and cer- tain supplies and money to get them down there. It so happened that at that time Rostov on the Don was the center of a counter- revolutionary movement. I immediately cabled back, or telegraphed back, to the chief of the mission in Roumania that I could not fulfill his request. He wired the American ambassador and sought to get Kolpishnikoff and his automobiles, and probably a hundred thousand rubles, sent through the aid and cooperation of the American em- bassy to Rostov on the Don. Now, the colonel of the American Red Cross in Jassy was doing the very best he knew how. He conceived the scheme that if things got too hot in Jassy he would send his unit, with the queen and some of the court, out to Rostov and then 700 miles across a mountain range to Mesopotamia, where they would be with the British front. It was quite a fantastic program, but it was sincerely believed. When it reached me, what it meant in European Russia and Petrograd was support to the counter-revolution whose center was Rostov. Of coux'se I could not move with that play, and refused my cooperation. Then it was planned to go out surreptitiously, and this particular Col. Kolpishnikoff said he could break by the Bolsheviki all right; that he would bribe his way through in the good old prer evolutionary fashion. Well, they let him get his train practically well loaded, and doubtless had him followed with the very excellent secret service that they have, and when he got ready to leave they arrested him and took the paper off the wall in his apartment, translated all of his tele- grams, translated everything in connection with it, and it looked as if the American Red Cross in Petrograd, working with the American Red Cross in Jassy — which they believed in Petrograd, by reason of false statements, was under the bourgeoisie influence or the royal in- fluence, etc. — as if the American ambassador and myself were involved in an effort to aid a counter-revolution movement ; and tliere had been enough counter-revolutionary activities in certain quarters, of the allies, in Russia to lay the foundation for the belief that it was general. This man, Col. Kolpishnikoff, was arrested and thrown into Peter and Paul. They got what they claimed, under their method of judg- ment, was "the goods" on him. They attacked the American am- bassador. It so happened that certain communications in his pos- session at the time seemed to exonerate me from complicity in the situation ; but, none the less, it was threatened that our headquarters were to be raided and that the members of our mission were to be arrested, and it seemed as if it was the end of the play, and they stopped me from sending certain supplies to Jassy by reason of this alleged plot. I went up to see Lenine. This is the thing that I referred to some time earlier as a time when I had a showdown with Lenine. I went to his office. I went where I usually could go at once, to his inner office. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 853 and was not permitted to go. I stayed there two hours, cooling my heels, and then I thought it was time to leave and I started to walk out, and the two red guardsmen walked to the door and crossed their bayonets, and I decided I would stay. I sat down for a while, and finally I looked at my watch and I said in the few Russian words I had, something about " It is now the time for my appoint- ment," and walked through the little passageway, as it were, or hallway that was the exit from Lenine's private roof. You went in this way and came out that way. Well, I thought I would walk around that way and see if I could get in to Lenine. I turned the knob of the door and the door opened and I was in Lenine's room, and he was sitting at the desk and he scowled at me when I entered unannounced, the only time he had seemed ugly. I walked up to his desk and I said, " Commissioner, I expect that you do not wish to see me. I do not wish to make any explanation now, but a full explanation in regard to the American ambassador and the Ameri- can Red Cross can be made. I know that the face of the papers, from your interpretation, looks bad. Commissioner, I have told you the truth and I shall keep on telling you the truth. I know exactly why and how I am walking around the streets of Petrograd under Bolshevik rule in Russia. I know that at any time you want to you can press a button and call a platoon of soldiers and send them down there to the hotel Europa and they will take me, dead or alive, to Peter and Paul and stand me up and shoot me if you say so ; and it is a long way from the Atlantic Ocean to the Neva for an Ameri- can gunboat, and that is the only answer. Now, commissioner, I have told you the truth ; first, because I like to tell the truth — on the whole it is the simpler way around, and if I am going, to meet trouble I like to meet it at once and get done with it — and I have told you the truth for a further reason. I have a profound regard for my good health. Now, if you wish me to give you a state- ment about this, I will be only too glad to do it at any time and I think I can satisfy you " ; and I turned around and walked out. It was on the basis of that situation that finally the American ambassador was absolved from all suspicion in the matter and we went on doing business in the situation. It was subsequent to that time, three months, that this man Kolpishnikoff, who was supposed to be a definite counter-revolutionist and who stayed in Peter and Paul a number of months, was released by the soviet government. Senator Nelson. That Russian colonel? Mr. Robins. That Russian colonel. I do not know whether any- thing ever happened to him afterwards, but I see here Mr. Johnston, the secretary of the ambassador, who will probably know. It was incidents of that sort, like the incident in relation to the head of th? Russian Red Cross, a nobleman who was released on my request, and who came to me with profound expression of his appreciation, and other situations of the sort, that made me feel and act and think as I have felt and acted and thought. Senator Sterling. Col. Robins Mr. Robins. I want to say one other thing, though. There seems to be some question — I do not know what may have been said before this committee — in regard to Red Cross supplies in Russia and in regard to the distribution of Red Cross supplies ; but I make this de- liberate statement : That everything done in relation to the American 854 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Red Cross I was responsible for ; that every member of the American Red Cross unites with me in judgment as to the wisdom of the action at that time. Maj. Allen Wardwell and Maj. Thomas D. Thacher are conservative lawyers of privilege and position in the city of New York. Other members of that mission are of similar character. When I got ready to play this hand through after the Bolshevik revolution and was told that I waw to be commander of the mission, hy the then commander, I said to him, " These are the men I want to stay in." He said, " I will order them to stay in." I said, " No, sir. I want no man staying in this game because of military authority that orders him to stay. I want him to stay because he wants to.'' He said, " What are you going to do ? " I said, " I am going to ask each one of them whether he wants to stay, and if he says he wants to star he is going to stay." I took them one at a time into nij^ room and said to them something like this : '' I have been working with you three months. You know something about the situation. I have got the authority to have you stay. I will not exercise it. You are free to go if your obligations at home are such that you feel that you ought to, or for any reason at all. I can not tell you what is going to happen in this game. Nobody can. I can tell vou this, that while I am in Russia the Red Cross will ring no backing bells. We will stay with the situation. At no time when there comes difficulty will there be any question of our personal survival. That is of small moment. If we can take care of ourselves, we will do it. I will ask none of you to do anything that I will not do myself. I am going to give you no foolish orders if I know it, but we are going to stay with this thing through to the end. If you do not like that outlook, leave." They stayed. The hour came when it was very perilous, in the opinion of many. I remember one time when it looked as if we were through with the play quickly. I said to them, coming into the room where they were, when machine-gun fire was going on in the streets, " I hope we will all get killed," and they looked at me as if I was crazy. I said : " I mean it. Fellows, we have had the greatest privilege ever given, almost, to men, to see this tremendous hour, to share in it, and not only to share in it but to deal with it ; not to believe the lies and slanders and stuff, and not to be buncoed by it, either, but to do our level best day by day. If we ever get out of Russia alive and go to living an ordi- nary, humdrum life in America, it will be so infernal dull we will wish we had been killed " ; and the group stayed through, and every one of the group agrees with me at this hour — I do not mean in all points, but I mean in every substantial way— and every one of them played the hand through. If there is any statement about supplies of the American Red Cross let it be said that the American Embassy knew of the facts, and the American Embassy at no time suggested that there was anything being done with Red Cross supplies in any way unsatisfactory or against the American or allied interest in Russia. We will meet the full issue on that, and I challenge anybody who has made a statement to meet that situation in the open, and not in some secret way. Senator Sterling. Let me say. Col. Robins, that one witness here testified in regard to Col. Thompson's activities, and he gave to Col. Thompson a very high character, indeed, in the management of the Red Cross work while he was there, and I think the committee — ^I was, BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 855 anyhow — were impressed with the truth of that witness' statement in regard to Col. Thompson. Mr. Httmes. I do not want you to misunderstand my inquiry, Colonel. I asked you with reference to some thousand barrels of pork. My information is that during the closing days of the work of your mission that quantity, or approximately that quantity, of pork fell into the hands of the Bolsheviki, either by force or otherwise, and it was regarding that that I was inquiring. Did it or did it not fall into their hands? Mr. EoBiNS. It did not; and the verification of the facts, with all the circumstances, is within reach of the committee through Maj. Allen Wardwell, who was in charge in Petrograd at the time. Mr. HtiMES. Now, as I understand, the avowed purpose of the Bol- sheviki is not only to rule Russia, but to overthrow by revolutionary means this Government, as well as all other governments ? Mr. Robins. Every government in the world. Mr. Humes. And I do not understand you to favor the formal rec- ognition of the Bolshevik government. Mr. Robins. Correct. Mr. Humes. I do not know that you have declared yourself on that, but I gathered from your testimony that you do not favor such a course. Mr. Robins. Correct. Mr. Humes. But you do favor economic support ? Mr. Robins. I do. « Mr. Humes. In other words, through economic support you would sanction and encourage and support a further development and strengthening of a government whose avowed purpose is the over- throw of our Government. Is that correct ? Mr. Robins. Well, now, Mr. Humes Mr. Humes. Does not that necessarily follow ? Mr. Robins. No ; it does not follow at all. You have got there Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact Mr. Robins. Well, won't you let me answer this first, now ? Senator Hiram W. Johnson. You have a right to answer. Senator Overman. I am going to let him answer. Mr. Humes. Let me state the question in another way. Is it not a fact that the economic strengthening of the Bolshevik government, the building up of that government, the furnishing it with more raw materials, with more material things, would make it possible for them, financially and otherwise, to carry on a stronger propaganda and a stronger agitation and a stronger warfare against our Government than they could carry on if they did not have the economic support that you favor ? Mr. Robins. Well, now, I think I have got your question, and I do not agree with it at all,- and I do not think it is a statement of a sound fact. I agree rather with your chief and mine, as a citizen of this Government, that the best answer to Bolshevism is food. I think, sir, that economic misery, as I have tried again and again to say in this statement, the paralysis of' the economic life in Russia, and the misery that grew out of it, and that whole setting, just as in Germany — Mr. Humes, if the Germans are hungry enough, if there is economic misery enough, the Gernians will be Bolsheviki. That is inevitable, in my judgment. That is just what I say in regard to 856 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Russia. I believe that the reorganization of Eiissian life economically the beginning to give substantial hope here and there, beginning to recreate the property interest and the stake in life, would begin at once to disorganize Bolshevilc power and the adherence to the formulas. I believe the matter should be dealt with on that basis. And wherever there was a little situation — an oasis, as it were, sepa- rated from the general situation — where they were getting along fairly well, and people began to have a property interest in life, a hope in life, the formulas had less power. I believe that the best answer to Bolshevik Russia is economic cooperation, food, friencUi- ness on the part of America, the relationship that we could bring about that would help us, help Russia, and operate in this country to weaken the authority and power of Bolshevism. Mr. HuaiES. On the assumption that there is this need for food, that conclusion might necessarily follow ; but you a few moments ago made the statement that the peasants, who represent 84 per cent of the people of Russia, by reason of the productiveness of the soil and their having acquired the ownership of the land had enjoyed the fruits of a new era during the last year, and that therefore this want and this starvation that you now refer to did not exist ; and I think that I was justified in drawing that inference from your statement. If they are not hungry, if they have plenty of food, why is it neces- sary to take food to Russia? The information that this committee has had up to this time has been that there was want, that there was privation, that tfitere was suffering there. Mr. Robins. Well, now, where was that, Mr. Humes? Was not that in Petrograd and Moscow — in the cities rather than in the country ? Mr. Humes. No; that was all over the country, even among the peasants. Mr. Robins. Down in the Ukraine and in Siberia, where the grain is? Mr. Humes. Even among the peasants ; that the peasants were not raising any more than they needed for their own personal use, and were raising no grain to furnish to the rest of the population of Russia. Your statement to-day has been that 84 per cent of the people are living in a new era; that they are satisfied with the fruits of their first year of possession of the land. If that is true, and that degree of contentment and joy exists among 84 per cent of the people, I do not see that the same necessity for the economic answer to Bolshevism presents itself. Mr. Robins. Well, I am sorry that I have made myself so unin- telligible to you, because your interpretation does not seem to me to rest upon what I said, and certainly it does not rest upon what I meant to say. Senator Ovekman. Col. Robins, will you be here to-morrow? Mr. Robins. I will, sir. Senator Overman. It is late, and I think we had better adjourn now. Mr. Robins. I shall be very glad to be here at 10.30 if you wish. Senator Overman. Thank you. Mr. Robins. I will be here, Senator. (Thereupon, at 5.40 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee adjourned until to-morrow, Friday, March 7, 1919, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.) BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. FRIDAY, MARCH 7, 1919. United States Senate, Subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary, Washington, D. G . The subcommittee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., in room 226, Senate Office Building, Senator Lee S. Overman presiding. Present: Senators Overman (chairman). Nelson, and Sterling. Senator Overman. The committee will come to order. Now, Major, if you have any other questions you want to ask Mr. Robins, proceed with your examination. TESTIMONY OF MR. RAYMOND ROBINS— Resumed. Mr. Humes. Colonel, in order that we can understand your view- "point — and possibly I have been too obtuse to catch it — I would like to ask you with regard to the degree of contentment that you have said existed among the peasants. It is my recollection that you said yesterday that the peasants were so contented with their first year's possession of the land and with the fruits of the first year of Bolshe- vism, that they could not be shaken in the faith ; that they felt that it was a new era, a new life that they had entered upon. Did I understand you correctly in that regard ? Mr. EoBiNS. You did not, Mr. Humes. What I said was in answer to a query, to one of the members of the committee — I think it was Senator Overman — in which I suggested that the prospective strength of the soviet government rested -back upon the fact that there had been a distribution of the land, which was what the peasants had desired above any other one thing in Russia ; that under this distri- bution they had raised a crop, the last year's crop; that they had enjoyed the fruits of their labor on land that they now called their own, without paying any rent for that land ; and that the title to this land and the right to use it free of rent came to them from the soviet ; and I suggested to the inquiry of the Senator that they would prob- ably defend — or I asked him whether it would not be apparent that they would defend — the soviet through which they held the title to their land. Mr. Humes. Yes. Do I understand, then, that you are discrimi- nating between the soviet as an institution and the Bolsheviki, as we frequently term the present Russian government? Mr. Robins. I should always seek to do that, Mr. Humes. The soviet is a form or framework or method of Slavic deniocratic social control, exactly as the Constitution of the United States is a 857 S58 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. framework or method or form of political democratic Anglo-Saxon social control. Senator Nelson. Mr. Robins, will you allow me to interrupt you there ? Mr. Robins. Yes; certainly. Senator Nelson. Is it not rather an evolution from the old mir I Mr. Robins. I think it is an evolution from the old mir; decidedly so. Senator Nelson. It is an evolution from the old uiir system of government ? Mr. Robins. I believe that to be true. Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Robins. Mr. Humes, the particular party that invests that framework of government as the directing officers, and the particular party program that for the moment is the government program, is Bolshevik in Russia; but the soviet might easily endure with the Menshevik party taking control from the Bolsheviki and using the same framework of government; as in the United States we have a Republican party with Republican principles investing the frame- work of our Government at one time, and at another time we have the Democratic party investing the framework of the Government; and if the socialists were to get command of the American Govern- ment by popular vote, they would then invest the framework of the Government. I think, therefore, we should in careful thinking always distinguish between the soviet and the Bolshevik party; but for the purposes of description and in general speaking, we might easily interchange Bolshevik and soviet, because the Bolshevik party for the hour and in the present have taken possession of, have in- vested the soviet framework. Senator Overman. Right there, I want to understand your view- point. I want the facts. It is not like this country, because they have no framework, no constitution ; but the Bolsheviki are the con- stitution and the framework and everything else ; is not that so ? Mr. Robins. Senator, I would not think that that was wholly so. There is this soviet form which the Russian mass — the peasants and workingmen — have adopted as a framework. "All power to the soviet," which was the cry on which Lenine and Trotzky took possession of the government in Russia, was not "All power to the Bolsheviki." They really, discreetly — or rather cunningly, with real political judg- ment — saw that the people liked their self-governing Soviets; saw what the Senator suggested, that the old mir that they were familiar with was the thing that the people wanted ; that this new constituent assembly idea was largely an importation of the intelligentsia ; doing what in this country we do partly by having a written Constitution. As one peasant leader said to me, " Our all-Russian soviet is our con- stitutional assembly, and the decrees passed in there are our consti- tution. "We are more like the British Parliament, where there is no fixed constitution limiting the enactments of the people, than like your America, and it suits us better." Somebody said that to me in discussion about it, I constantly urging a constituent assembly, con- stantly urging it, largely out of my ignorance, because I like the Gov- ernment that I had been used to ; and I think we found, in course of time, in Russia, that there was this definite framework that had BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 859 grown up out of their historic past, which the clever political minds of the Bolshevik leaders fell upon as the way to get into power ; and so I think there is really something there in structure as well as the actual Bolshevik domination. Senator Nelson. Mr. Eobins, the only plan of government they have now is those decrees issued there at Petrograd, issued by the central soviet ; is not that so ? Mr. Robins. That is the national control, Senator. Senator Nelson. Yes. Well, that is simply certain decrees pro- mulgated by what you might call an oligarchy right there ; it is not the product of anything in the nature of a constitutional convention ? Mr. Robins. Let us look at that and see if that is a correct defini- tion. Here is tlie all-Russian National Soviet Assembly, the dele- gates elected from various local provincial and trade groups through- out the nation. Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Robins. There being several kinds of classifications of dele- gates, as it were. That national convention elects an executive com- mittee of 250 to 300 members. Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Robins (continuing). Which sits, as it were, as a permanent parliament in between the sessions of the national convention. Every decree that is passed has to be approved by the executive com- mittee of the permanent parliament of the national, the all-Russian, soviet, and it is promulgated by statement of the council of the people's commissars. All three actions are required ; in other words, first the national assembly; second, the all-Russian executive com- mittee of the national assembly; third, the council of the people's commissars; and until the decree has been approved and issued through the council of people's commissars, it is not a decree, and they consider it and speak of it there as beng a definite enactment of the representatives of Russia, and Senator Nelson. So that those decrees, then, according to your vieAv, are at present the constitutional form of government there, adopted in that way? Mr. Robins. Yes. If you will look back over the record. Senator, you will find that in the Fifth Russian Soviet, which met, I think, some time in July, 1918, there was passed a definite general frame- work, the so-called constitution of the soviet. Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Robins. It was published in this country, and doubtless it is in your record. Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Robins. That outlined certain structural framework, but the whole government, as I seemed to see it, was, as it were, in flux — in movement. Just as the old village mir was growing up here, just as the revolutionary councils in the cities were being fused, just as you found territorial delegation districts and then found craft dele- gate districts, you found that there were a number of methods, as it were, being slowly fused into a general type ; but it was a movement toward conscious revolutionary mass control, or so seemed to me to be. « Senator Overman. I am interested to get this. You describe' this as a party rather than a government. Is there any way possible for 860 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. the people of Russia to get rid of Lenine and Trotzky without a revolution ? Mr. Robins. I should say so, absolutely, sir. I should say that the moment that any considerable mass in Russia wants to get rid of Lenine and Trotzky, they can do it. I remember now Lenine saying to me one day in the Kremlin, shortly after he had come from Petrograd to Moscow, I telling him some of the reasons why there was such bitter prejudice against his government, and among them the use of force and the charge that they had simply changed dic- tators — that from dictator Nicholas, from dictator Czar, it was now become dictator Lenine — "Ah," he said, " are you familiar with the philosophy," said he, " of the dictatorship of the proletariat " ; and I confessed total ignorance. He said, " To take over the institutions of existing bourgeois capitalist society it is necessary to move by force. As soon as you have overcome the force of the existing order, then 30U revert back to the democratic method." Senator Overman. In what way could they go about getting rid of Lenine and Trotzky? Mr. Robins. Just a moment. Senator Overman. Pardon me. Mr. Robins (continuing). He said, "They say that I am a dic- tator, and I am for the moment. I am dictator because I have be- hind me for the moment the will of the mass of peasants and workers. The moment I cease to do their will they will take the power from me, and I would be as helpless in Russia as the Czar was." And I believe that is so ; that the reason that their power has held has been that for the time they expressed, as between the old experience of the past and the new experience, a larger expectation of hope and opportunity for the mass of the peasants and workers of Russia than they had before; and as long as that expectation holds they will support Lenine. When it ceases to hold, their rifles and their power will be against him, and he will pass from the scene. Senator Overman. You say "their rifles." That is what I say; how are you going to get rid of them except by revolution? Mr. Robins. Senator, I do not know that you can, except bythe development of the soviet membership. For instance, here is a Fourth All-Russian Soviet called to ratify the peace, called at a time when there is a debate between even the two wings of the dominant party, between Lenine and Trotzky. Lenine calls it, and he goes down to the old holy city, the center of the old order of church and state and industrial and commercial power, to meet this assembly in the hour of greatest strain and confusion, and he has the one great clear program. He stands up there, when they said that peace could not be ratified, and it was ratified. In other words, he IS indorsed by the delegate body because he wins through knowledge of the facts of Russian life and interpretation of their desires. Then they meet again in July. Again the executive committee, or the mass, indorses Lenine. The theory of the soviet government, as I understand it to be, is that every three months it must meet — it can be called oftener, but every three months the All-Eussian National Soviet must meet-^-and that in that delegate assembly all the acts of the executive committee and of the council of people's commissars and the actual commissions BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 861 as people's commissars go back, as it were, to fhe national assembly, and the national assembly has to reelect the council of people's com- missars and to reelect the national executive committee, and has to indorse their actions in the interim; so that at any moment there was a majority of delegates elected to the National soviet with a program for the National All-Russian Soviet in opposition to Lenine and Trotzky they simply would not be reelected, and other persons would be elected in their stead. It was stated at this Fourth AU-Kussian Soviet that Karolyn, one of the leaders of the left, was to be elected in Lenine's stead. It was childish talk, but I think any time there is a change of mass leadership they have two methods of changing, either by the constitutional method, if I may use the word " constitutional," in relation to such a system as exists in Eussia, or by the exercise of powers of force that exist in Russia. There were demobilized 12,000,000 soldiers, and they were demobil- ized largely armed, and all over Eussia, in the villages, are peasants w'ith their arms, and not a few machine guns, in practically every important village in Russia, as the result of the demobilizing, with- out any real control by force from the center. That happened at the time the break-up was going on two months before Kerensky's gov- ernment was overthrown; so that, in every village in Russia where they wish to exercise power against the soviet control, there are rifles and machine guns, and if you have men to man them in sufficient numbers they can take command of things. Senator Steeling. Let me just ask, have you been out among the villages where these peasants live, and have you seen these rifles and machine guns in the hands of the peasants ? Do you know that they are there, from your personal laiowledge and observation ? Mr. Robins. What I know about that is this: I know that there Were in the villages around Ekaterinoslav, in southern Russia ; I know that there were in the villages around Karkov ; I do know that there were in all these villages where we stopped as we came out through Siberia. Further than that I do not know of my own personal knowl- edge ; but I do know that every revolt started from anywhere, whether supported by foreign rifles or supported only by local and bourgeois interests in Russia, has been repelled not bj^ the power of rifles sent from Moscow or Petrograd, but by the power of the local peasant revolt against the eifort to return to the old order. Senator Sterling. Now, Colonel, do you not know that the peasants in many places along the Volga, and when the Czecho-Slovalis were there, were powerless as against the Bolsheviki ; that they wanted to assist the Czecho-Slovaks, wanted to rise up against the Bolsheviki, but they had no arms, and the Czecho-Slovaks or the allied forces furnished them arms in order that they might join in a Russian peo- ple's army to assist the Czecho-Slovaks ? Mr. Robins. No; Senator. Senator Sterling. Is not that a fact? Mr. Robins. No ; I do not think that is a fact. I have heard it, of course, a number of times. Senator Sterling. Do you know Col. Lebedeff ? Mr. Robins. I have heard of him. Do you mean the ex-minister of marine ? Senator Stejrling. Yes. He is a man of good repute? 862 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. EoBiNs. Yes. Senator Steeling. You know of nothing to the contrary? Mr. Robins. No, sir. Senator Steeling. Have you read his book ? Mr. Robins. No, sir ; and, primarily, I would not expect to get from any representative of the old order in Russia a fair judgment upon the revolutionary workmen's and peasants' revolution in Russia. Senator Nelson. From what source would you get it? Mr. Robins. I would try to get it Senator Nelson. From these academic fellows, from these peace-at- any-price fellows, and conscientious objectors? Mr. Robins. No, sir ; I would put those on the left hand and the others on the right. I would try to get in between there. Senator. Senator Nelson. Now, I gather from your whole statement that you are rather of the opinion that Lenine and Trotsky are the men of the hour for the Russian people at this time ? Mr. Robins. No ; Senator, I do not think you would get that, unless we qualify it so that we really know what we say, if we mean to say that is the total result it would be wrong. The question you asked, Senator, might involve the assumption that I thought that they were right in their program. I do not think so. If what you inquired was, did I think that they represented the revolutionary mind in Rus- sia and were the best interpreters of that revolutionary class con- science, socialistic revolutionary mind, I say yes, absolutely, that they are the incarnation of it. Senator Nelson. Do you approve of that revolution? Mr. Robins. I do not approve of their program. I am glad for the Russian revolution and the overthrow of the Czar. Senator Nelson. Without any circumlocution about this matter, do you believe that our Government ought to recognize the govern- ment of Lenine and Trotsky over there now ? Mr. Robins. No ; I should say that in the present situation, before any recognition of the government takes place there should be a careful investigation by competent and unbiased men, if it is pos- sible, to find out just what the present facts in Russia are. Senator Nelson. But suppose you were the investigator, and you went over there, would you recommend, from your knowledge of con- ditions there and of the character of these men, that our Government acknowledge that government of Lenine and Trotzky? Mr. Robins. Senator, I would not recommend it at this moment. If I went ovei' there and found a state of facts that seemed to show that they were supported by the mass of the people, that they had stabilized at certain points, that there was a reasonable expectation that they would be the power of Russia for a considerable period of time, I should recommend recognizing them and working with them. Senator Nelson. What is your opinion on that point? Are they of that character? Mr. Robins. I certainly do not know. I tried to indicate here yes- terday that after I left "Russia, constant rumor that came out, con- stant conflict of testimony, left me, in regard to what was actually going on in Russia, in very real doubt at this present time. I do not believe it is possible to have a sound judgment. I should like to see an inquiry made. I should like to have seen a conference held. I BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 863 should like to see a mission go in there and get a real statement of the actual situation. Senator Nelson. Then, as at present advised, you are not prepared to blame our Government for not recognizing the Bolshevik govern- ment of Lenine and Trotzky. Mr. KoBiNS. You mean recognizing at the present moment? Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Robins. Absolutely, I would attach no blame. Senator Nelson. Do you not believe, if that system of govern- ment should prevail in Russia, with their gospel and their creed and their mode of operatiouj that they would attempt to spread it all over the world — to internationalize it? Mr. Robins. Largely, I think they would. Senator Nelson. Would you not regard that as a menace to other civilizations, to our country and to England and to other civilized countries ? Would you not regard it as a menace ? Mr. Robins. I tried to make plain yesterday that I regard the formulas, the challenge, of the Bolsheviki program as the first chal- lenge and menace to all political democratic governments of the world. Senator Nelson. Now, then, why do you want to nurse it in Russia ? Mr. Robins. I am not wanting to nurse it in Russia or anywhere. I would like to tell the truth about it. Senator Nelson. I gather the impression from your statement, in the aggregate, that while j^ou do not believe in that system of govern- ment, you are lather in favor of the operations of Lenine and Trotsky. Mr. Robins. Not at all. Senator Nelson. You decribe Trotzky as a very fine man. Mr. Robins. Oh, I beg your pardon. Senator Nelson. Oh. yes. You said that he was highly educated, a very able man, and an orator, and all that. Mr. Robins. He was all three of those things, but I have known men who were those three things, whose character and principles I would be bitterly opposed to. I would like to tell the truth about men, and about movements, without passion and without resentment, even though I differed from men and from movements. I think that that is the essential thing, if we are going to get the truth about it. And there is in this whole Russian situation so much partisan bias. If this will suit your thought of what I am meaning, I am perfectly willing that the Russian people should have the kind of government that the majority of the Russian people want, whether it suits me or whether it is in accord with my principles or not. Senator Nelson. I thought so. And your idea is that the Russian people, if they want a Bolshevik government full-fledged Mr. Robins. Yes. Senator Nelson. As it is to-day, ought to have it? Mr. Robins. Absolutely. Senator Nelson. So that, boiled down, your mission here is, your first intention is, that the Russian people, if they want a Bolshevik government, ought to have it? Mr. Robins. Yes. 864 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. And your next point is, you believe the Eussian people want that kind of a government? Mr. Robins. At the time I left Eussia I believed the majority of the people were for that government. Senator Sterling. And yet on yesterday you condemned Bolshe- vism in the severest terms. Mr. EoBiNS. And I do this morning. Senator Steeling. And you consider it one of the greatest menaces to government and law and order and civilization ? Mr. Robins. Absolutely, Senator. Senator Steeling. And yet you want to see it work its way out ia Russia? Mr. Robins. Senator, what I want to see is this Senator Sterling. Just let me add this. Instead of excusing the acts of the government as your testimony seems to do, would it not be better, and would it not be more in accord with patriotism and with good government and real love of order and humanity, to dis- courage rather than to say, " Here, this is a movement which has its foundation in certain great abuses," and let it go on^'ust let it go on, although you know that it would be a menace to the rest of the world by its establishment in Russia. It seems to me that there is an inconsistency in the position you take — first condemning it and treat- ing it as a menace and so regarding it, but trying to find excuses for its existence. Mr. Robins. I do not want to make excuses. I would like, however, if I could, to tell the actual truth about it. You know perfectly well that two views have been expressed in America. Here is the view of certain gentlemen who believe in the present soviet government and who think they ought to extend their principles over the world. Then there is a group of people who speak of the whole movement as a German agent, thief, and murderer movement. I do not believe that either is a sound position. I think that to know what has actually happened in Russia is of the very first moment, for us and for our country to deal with it honestly and fairly, rather than in passion or on a statement that is not true — that that is the sound way to combat it. I think to know your disease, just how it came, the circumstances of it, and then to apply the cure — the intelligent cure rather than the unintelligent cure — is the sound way of dealing with' the situation. Senator Nelson. And what is the cure that you prescribe ? The cure is that if the Russian people want that style of government they should have it. That is the cure. You do not propose any missionary work, to go over there and convert them from the error of their ways, but you say if they want that form of government we ought to let them have it. That is the cure that you propose. Mr. Robins. On the contrary, that is. not quite it. Senator Nelson. You are not consistent. Mr. Robins. I try to be. On the contrary, there was a cure advo- cated and presented and attempted by the American Government. It was the cure of intervention. Senator, that cure strengthened and deepened Bolshevism in Russia and created a sense of resentment against the use of armed force to overthrow a democratic movement, so called, a revolutionary movement in another land, that made a revolt of troops in England and questionable situations in Canada BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 865 and questionable situations in France. Senator, that was the wrong way to deal with Bolshevism. That sti'engthened Bolshevism in Kussia, and that extended Bolshevism, because it had been treated un- fairly, in the thought of men's minds who like fairness and justice. It created a resentment and a bitterness in this country on which Bol- shevism could live and grow. Senator Overman. Eight there let me interrupt you. I have been delighted to hear you and have your expressions, and I have been very much interested myself, and I have no doubt the whole country is; but suppose that after hearing all the evidence the committee should find it to be a fact that red-handed murder is everywhere, that they are looting everybody's homes, that there is no govern- ment there, and all is chaos and anarchy, that the people are starv- ing to death, the little children are dying everywhere ; in the interest of humanity would you say that this Government ought to keep its hands off and let them go on with that sort of government ? Mr. EoBiKS. Senator, if you had the facts that you could rely upon that that was the actual condition, then probably the civilized world should take action; but I would warn those who would reach that conclusion to be careful of their facts. Senator Overman. I do not say that we are going to reach that conclusion. Mr. EoBiNs. To be careful in the testimony submitted. Senator Overman. I agree with you; but suppose it is true. You have been away from there some time. Suppose the overwhelming evidence is that that is the condition, then would you favor this Gov- ernment intervening ? Mr. EoBiNS. I would favor civilization saving any people that were absolutely being murdered and starved and ruined by a power that was held up by bayonets over there, when they have no remedy except for somebody to come in and liberate them by force. Senator Nelson. You leave the impression upon my mind from your whole statement that your mission here is to have our Govern- ment keep its hands off from the Bolsheviki over there and let them have their own sweet will about everything. Is not that what you are here for, and what your mission is? Mr. EoBiNS. I have not any definite mission of that sort. Senator Nelson. Is not that the drift of your evidence and of your conduct ? Mr. EoBiNS. You can judge of the drift of it. I am against the use of American arms and American men in Eussia against the Eussian revolutionary government, on a false judgment of the facts in the case. Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. EoBiNS. I believe that is a betrayal of American principles, of the principles upon which this Government was founded, and a violation of the whole constitutional method of our land. Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. EoBiNS. I believe that such exercise will raise in this country and in other lands the feeling of class resentment and throw men toward the class cleavage and division, which is the supreme menace of the age. 85723—19 55 866 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Steeling. Now, it seems to me that you either do not know the facts in regard to some atrocities of the Bolshevist government, or else you are diligent, a little, in trying to excuse it. Let me call your attention to a statement made by Col. Lebedeff in regard to one particular atrocity. He says: The uprisings in Yaroslavl and Meirom were temporarily successful ; but in most places the half-armed people were mercilessly slaughtered with artillery and machine guns. I want to say that that statement may be taken in connection with your statement that the peasants in all the villages were thoroughly armed, had their rifles and machine guns. But here is this further statement : In one instance — Says Col. Lebedeff — in the village of Senenikha the Red Guard shot about 100 young peasants and forced old men to dig graves for their sons, killed in the presence of their families. It seems to me that Col. Lebedeff was in quite as good a position as you ever were to know the situation. Mr. KoBiNS. When did he leave there ? Senator Steeling. Because he was there during the time of the movement of the Czecho-Slovak army, and you left about the time that that movement began. You left European Eussia in May ? Mr. Robins. Yes; May 14. Senator Steeling. And it was in the late spring and summer of 1918 that this Czecho-Slovak army movement was, and that was during the time when they held about 200 miles along the Volga front. I want now' to call your attention to another thing. You spoke against intervention. You are against it? Mr. EoBiNS. Yes. Senator Steeling. I want to call your attention to a statement of Lord Milner with reference to the reasons for intervention. He says : The reason why allied, not merely British, forces — indeed the British are only a small proportion of the total allied troops — were sent to Russia, is that the Bolsheviki. whatever their ultimate ob.iect, were in fact assisting our enemies In every possible way. I think you made some statements in your testimony that prac- tically admit that ? Mr. EoBiNs. No. Senator Steeling. German propaganda. Mr. EoBiNS. There was German propaganda, but on the contrary I wish now to state that the commissioner of Great Britain said, over his signature, that the Bolshevik government — that Trotzky himself — had helped the allies in specific instances that he indicated. Senator Steeling. But the Bolsheviki were officered to a great ex- tent by German officers, were they not* Mr. EoBiNS. Not while I was in Eussia. Senator Steeling. Have you learned that they subsequently were? Mr. EoBiNS. I have heard so. But I heard that large groups were officered bv German officers when I was there, but it was not true. BOLSHEVIK PK0PA6ANDA. 867 Senator Sterling. A part of the Bolshevist army was made up of released German prisoners. Mr. Robins. A very small portion. Senator Steeling. Others were Lettish. Mr. EoBiNS. There were some Letts. Senator Steeling. Quite a contingent of the Bolshevist army were Lettish, were they not ? Mr. EoBiNS. I do not think so. Senator Steeling. How about Chinamen who had been helping build the railroads ? Mr. Robins. While I was in Russia I never saw an armed China- man in the Red Guards or in the Bolshevik forces. Senator Steeling. Were you in that region — the region of the railroad extending north to Archangel ? Senator Nelson. The Murman coast? Mr. Robins. No ; I was not at Murman. Senator Steeling. Let me call your attention further to what Lord Milner says. He says it was owing to their action that hundreds of thousands of German troops were let loose to hurl themselves against our men on the western front, and it was owing to their betrayal that Eoumania, with all of its rich resources in grain and oil, fell into the hands of the Germans. He says it was they who handed over the .Black Sea fleet to the Germans, and who treacherously attacked the Ozecho- Slovaks when the latter only desired to get out of Russia in order to fight for the freedom of their own country in Europe. Do you deny the fact that they did treacherously attack the Czecho- slovaks? Mr. Robins. I do. Senator Steeling. Did they not assure them of safe conduct? Mr. Robins. Do you wish me to make a statement in regard to the Czecho-Slovaks at present? I know the development in part of that situation, and I would be glad to do it. Senator Steeling. I would be glad to have you answer the ques- tion, whether they assured the Czecho-Slovaks safe conduct through Eussia? Mr. Robins. I think they did. Senator Steeling. Was their promise kept to give them safe con- duct? Mr. Robins. I think the promise was not kept on the part of the Czecho-Slovaks or on the part of the soviet govermnent. Senator Steeling. Did they not disarm the Czecho-Slovaks? Mr. Robins. No. Senator Steeling. On the Volga front? Mr. Robins. There was some disarming of the Czecho-Slovaks. Senator Steeling. And they were afterwards attacked, were they not, and attacked under the orders of Lenine and Trotzky; and it was supposed that Lenine and Trotzky had their orders from Ger- many to not let the Czecho-Slovaks pass through Eussia? Mr. Robins. Now, will you let me make a statement about the Czecho- Slovak situation? Senator Steeling. Yes. Mr. Robins. And first let me say this: I refuse iiow and at all times to be put in the position of defending atrocities, murders, or 868 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. any kind of violation of law, or of the rights of persons or property. I did not defend it at any time. I do prefer to understand the situ- ation rather than to denounce it. I do prefer to see the reasons that lead up to extraordinary situations rather than to reason from those situations back into an ordered and normal life. Since I came to America I have found a bitterness, a resentment against the revolu- tionary development in Eussia because of violence and anarchy and arbitrary conduct — a great deal more resentment against that than I found in my country here against bloody Monday under the Czar, and that long line of tyranny and abuse, and the use of the Cossack whip and sword over Eussian peasants and workers that went on for generations. I find that the atrocities of the Bolsheviki, terrible and wrong and to be opposed by all intelligent and honest men, create more excitement and interest than the atrocities of the Czecho- slovaks when they take a Bolshevik village and stand up and shoot the Bolsheviki without trial. The whole situation is full of a bitter- ness of wrong, of crime, of mad movements that have gotten away from reason and intelligence and law and order. I would like to get to the heart of the whole situation, not to be the advocate of one side only, one group of feeling. I would like to have America's Senate committee, with the great responsibilities it has, comprehend the Eussian revolution, the facts of it, its development, and what it now means and presages to the world, and then to make answer to the American people, so that there can be organized in America the intelligent conscience in both parties, in all parties, to make our Government at all points correspond to the growing pur- pose and need of the times, to answer that condition to which the President referred when he spoke of " this tide that was moving in the hearts of men." It is moving in the hearts of men, and mere re- sentment and passion will not answer it. I would like to see the Christian forces of America organized to meet the challenge of the materialist, class conscious, socialist gov- ernment of Eussia with the real answer of a serving church, as I would like to see our Government answer with a serving state — the only effective answer; and, gentlemen, just merely taking Col. Lebe- deff, who was a minister of Kerensky's government, who was thrown roughly out by the Bolsheviki, who naturally feels the resentment of his situation — taking his testimony on the one hand and not taking the whole situation — will not lead us to the truth. I would like to get and I believe that you can get the truth of the Czecho-Slovak situation also. What is it? The Czecho-Slovaks were 60,000 as good soldiers as there are in the world — patriotic men, men who were forced to enlist by the Austrian power when they did not believe in that power, when they wanted to have free Bohemia. They allowed themselves to be taken prisoners in groups. They were taken prisoners in twos and tens and in hundreds. Thej' came into Eussia. They were armed and equipped by the Eussian Army. They went on to the Ukraine front and they held it in splendidly courageous fash- ion. Then the Bolshevik revolution came over ; bread, land, and peace, under the conditions I spoke of yesterday. They, the Czecho-Slovaks, ^vere in resentment against any armistice; and why? Not only be- cause of patriotism, not only because of honor, but because they wanted free Bohemia ; and bread, land, and peace for Eussia did not BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 869 bring anything for the Czecho-Slovak soldier for liberty in Bohemia. It may have been bad for free Bohemia ; it may have put it furtherl away. Then, after the armistice was signed, they wanted to go to fight in France, like courageous soldiers. It was agreed in conference in Mos- cow that the Czecho-Slovak corps should go by Murmansk to Arch- angel, with safe conduct of the soviet government, and in that event they would reach the French front in three weeks instead of in three months, as it would take the other way, with 6,000 miles across Russia, with transportation bad and food bad, then across the Japa- nese Sea, across Japan and the Pacific to America, and then across the Atlantic to the French front. The reason they were not sent by Mur- mansk and Archangel, if I know the truth, was because the French interest in Russia had determined that the soviet goi'ernment should be overthrown at any hazard. The Czecho- Slovaks were sent the long way, through Siberia, and it was promised — and I saw the telegram from the Japanese consul and the French consul at Vladivostok — that as soon as they reached Vladivostok there should be transportation for those troops. About 15,000 reached Vladivostok without the firing of a single shot, in obedience with the safe conduct given by the soviet government. There was no shipping, and the word came back to Moscow that the shipping was not there and would not be there, and there never was any intention of taking them out, but, on the contrary, they were being taken around through Manchuria and Siberia and were to aid Semenoff to attack and overthrow the soviet in Siberia and starve Moscow and Petrograd by controlling the Trans-Siberian Railway. Then the local Soviets said, "What is this; are we sending Czecho- slovaks out armed to come back and to overthrow our government? If Trotzky is fool enough to send them out, we won't do it. At least, we will disarm them." And they went down to the trains scattered along the Trans-Siberian Railroad and demanded that the arms be given up by the Czecho-Slovaks. They did not give them up, and I do not blame them. I would not have given them up. Then a clash occurred between an honest-purposed local soviet and the heroic- purposed Czecho-Slovaks, and you have the situation that grew out of those things, where the cards were not all on the table and will not be until the passion of this whole situation dies out and the truth is allowed to come forth. Senator Sterling. In this very connection, may I read just a short paragraph from Col. Lebedeff's statement ? [Reading :] At the end of May I was sent to the Volga region and farther down to Uralsk as a special representative of the anti-Bolshevist force-, to organize the struggle. Right then the first encounter between the Ozecho-Slovaks and the Red Army- took place, in Penza and Rtischevo. It was a result of Trotzky's famous order to disarm the Czecho-Slovaks and to bar their way to Vladivostok. On June 8 the Czecho-Slovak units approached Samara. In spite of Trotzky's order and the opposition of the local Soviet the workingmen of Syzran decided to let the Czecho-Slovaks pass. Part of the units proceeded to Samara. The majority of the Czecho-Slovaks had reached Ufa when a new order came from Trotzky — by all means to stop them in their march onward. Mr. Robins. And that order came, as a matter of fact, after the rumors had come back, and after there was a claim of actual fact that the Czecho-Slovaks had turned back into the Semenoif forces, 870 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. and I know — I do not guess ; I know — that the}' had been transported ;is agreed and that the terms of the agreement were not kept by France and Japan, for I passed over 6,000 miles, and passed train after train of Czecho-Slovaks, sidetracked, in entire understanding of the situ- ation" at that time. Fifteen thousand of them were in Vladivostok when I got there. Then the movement took place, based on the fact of there not being shipping there for them. That created the sus- picion of bad faith. Subsequent to that Trotzky then changed the order that he had made before from the basis of the transactions as alleged, and ordered that thej' should not go forward. That I be- lieve to be the truth. Senator Sterling. Then you agree substantially with the state- ment here ? Mr. Robins. No; I do not agree with that statement. Senator Sterling. You do not agree with the statement that Trotzky issued the final order not to let them pass ? Mr. Robins. Yes; but there is involved in that statement a pre- judgment of why he did it, with which I do not agree. Senator Sterling. Do you dispute the statement that the work- ine-men of Svzran decided to let the Czechb-Slovaks pass? Mr. Robins. I do not know the facts, sir. Senator Overman. Now, see if I understand you. Senator Sterling. Just to follow up the question that I was about to ask before we got into this immediate Czecho-Slovak statement, quoting again from Lord Milner, he says : The allies, every one of them, were most anxious to avoid interference in Rus- sia, but it was an obligation of honor to save the Czecho-Slovaks, and It was a military necessity of the most urgent kind to prevent those vast portions of Russia which wore struggling to escape the tyranny of the Bolshevik from being overrun by them and so thrown open as a source of supply to the enemy. I say nothing of the enormous quantities of military stores, the property of the allies, which were still lying at Archangel and "Vladivostok, and which were in course of being appropriated by the Bolsheviki and transferred to the Ger- mans until the allied occupation put au end to the process. I am reading this for the purpose of giving you the British view- point as to the reason for intervention and the occupation of Vladi- vostok and Archangel and the Murmansk coast with allied forces. Mr. Robins. You give me the opinion of a British statesman of very great character and quality, intimately known as the same Brit- ish statesman that favored the overthrow of the free Boers in South Africa and was recalled by a liberal government because of his well-known support of autocratic and dictatorial methods in dealing with other peoples for the advantage of English trade and commerce. I ask that there be incorporated in the record, side by side with the statement of Lord Milner, the very competent and careful an- alysis of his statement in the Manchester Guardian, one of the most important papers of Great Britain, where it takes the whole situation and makes the other statement — ^the statement not for the particular group interested, as Lord Milner has always been, simply in the com- mercial advantage of Great Britain, but in the interest of the working and labor people of Great Britain, which is a directly opposite state- ment of conditions and facts. Senator Sterling. I might say here that there is great room, I think, for difference of opinion as to Britain's course in South BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 871 Africa and in the Boer War, and a great difference of opinion as to what was the best for civilization. Mr. Robins. I agree with you, Senator. Senator Sterlikg. You will agree with that, will you? Mr. Robins. I will. Senator. Senator Sterling. And that there are many men who will say, of course — candid men — that Great Britain's course was right in that respect. Mr. Robins. Sincere men say that; yes, sir. Senator Overman. We have gotten a little far afield from what I wanted to ask — what I was leading up to — that is, that I understood you to think that Bolshevism is not only a menace to this country but a menace to the world? Mr. Robins. I do, sir. I think it is the first challenge of the age to our social order. Senator Overman. I so understood you. Now, that being so, would you be in favor of this country recognizing a government that is such a menace to the world? Mr. Robins. Senator, as I understand that, the question of recog- nition of a government does not rest upon the character of the gov- ernment. If the government really is the government of a people, that is all that any foreign government has any right to inquire into. Recognition does not say that you approve of a government. Recog- nition is simply the acceptance of a fact. " Here is a de facto govern- ment. Therefore we recognize that for the purpose of inquiring into it, and working with it, aiidj if necessary, ultimately opposing it and going to war with it." The thing I would be opposed to. Senator, was to blind ourselves to actual facts in Russia, not to deal with the actual facts, not to inquire into them, but to prejudge the case and deal with it on a basis that does not exist. Is it not true, Senator, that intervention in Russia, as adopted last July, rested upon a view of something as really existent in Russia that is now known not to have existed ? Is it not true that Madam Botch- kareva and others, perfectly sincere and honest, said to the govern- ment, " The whole of Russia is just waiting for this thing, this inter- vention by foreign troops. The whole of Russia will rise as one man." We have Jbeen there how many months. Senator ? How many foreign rifles in how many ports of Russia are there? And yet what has happened ? The people rose to resist, just as we would resist foreign aggression. We get the word that the Red army is stronger. We get the word that behind the Bolsheviki now have come the Mensheviki and the other social revolutionists of the right, saying, " We must protect our fatherland against foreign invasion." My whole conten- tion is, Senator, that we are dealing with the disease in a wrong way, because we do not know what the disease is, as yet, and that our reme- dies are not calculated, when we get the facts in front of us, to cure the disease we are trying to combat. Senator Overman. This great old heroine, as you call her, who was here — certainly a patriot and a heroine — who fought the Czar for 32 years, and suffered in prison that long, has testified before this com- mittee, saying " For God's sake, come over and help us. Our people are dying and they are starving; and so far as I am concerned give 872 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGAlirDA. me the old regime of the Czar rather than the Bolshevik rule." Are we to pay no attention to her testimony ? Mr. EoBiNS. Not at all, Senator. You are to consider her testimony and consider every other bit of testimony that you think is credible and sincere, and out of the sum of that testimony and out of the use of your ovrn intelligence you are to make a report to the American people. I ask you, Senator, is it reasonable to believe that two men, just two men, standing against a government that is in power, by whatever means — German agents or otherwise, any way you please — shall take over power, that they shall absolutely absorb a whole national domestic culture and life, that they shall hold it for 14 months, that they shall hold it against foreign rifles, that they shall hold it against suffering and misery and terror of all kinds, and still hold it, and that it rests only on the foundations that have been indi- cated by some of the testimony here? I submit, Senators, it is not reasonable. I submit that there is more behind Soviet rule and the revolutionary government of Russia than has been suggested in a great deal of the testimony before this coromittee. Senator Overman. Could we have a better witness than this woman that you have praised so highly ? Mr. EoBiNS. Senator, I should say you could have a better witness. I should say that any person who has spent 40 years in organizing a revolutionary movement, with great consecration and character, who has gone to village after village and said to the peasants, " You ought to have the land; it is yours; it does not belong to the landlords; you ought not to pay rent for it"; who has gone to workingmen and said to the workingmen in factories, " The factory^ belongs to you ; your labor has created everything here ; listen to this gospel of Marx, of the producers' rights as against the parasites " ; who has dis- tributed among them the communist manifesto — ^you know the formu- las of the communist manifesto; it is the very foundation of class socialism — who has distributed among them " Das Capital," the Bible of the socialists, translated into Russian ; and then, when this thing, this genie, this Frankenstein, has been raised up by 40 years of cul- ture, this splendid old woman finds herself there in Petrograd trying to bolster up her friends, Kerensky and his government, and finds that this thing is a little radical for the allied cooperation, and Kerensky has to have loans from America to hold on, and then she begins and spends all her credit, all that she had, which was a very great credit, and these peasant revolutionary people said, " Why, the dear old grandmother told us this, and now she tells us ' No ' ; she must be get- ting old " ; and then, when they do this thing that she had urged upon them to do and her government is thrown out, and she is a refugee and is in great terror that really in my judgment was not founded on fact — -I saw her a number of times during this period, knew where she was; the soviet knew where she was — I was very much con- cerned for the old lady. I knew her and honored her when she was doing various things that might tend to stabilize the Kerensky government and oppose the Bolsheviki, and I finally said to Lenine, "What is your disposition toward Madame -Bresk- kovsky?" "Why," he said, "We have not any disposition toward her. She belongs in the picture gallery." I said, " She believes that the Red Guard will kill her if they find her." He said, "Absurd!' BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 873 He said, " If you want a platoon of soldiers to protect her you can have them, if you want to put them around her." He said, " The only danger she is to us is that she might get run over and killed, and if she did it would be charged against the soviet government." He then seriously said, "We will not allow her to be taking part in counterrevolutionary activities. If she starts a counterrevolution, and they try to use the past credit of the old woman, we shall, if nec- essary, imprison her." But there was absolutely no disposition to bother her at all as long as she was not used as a counter revolutionary force against the revolution. And if you ask for what I really think to-day. Senator, I would say that one of the most pathetic things in the world to my mind at this moment is that this splendid old woman, with her great record of revolutionary service, by reason of personal pique, by reason of a very terrible situation and discour- agement, has turned so that she can unconsciously be used against the revolutionary movement in her own land that she helped to create and which seems to me to be fact at this hour. Senator Overman. In the course of our investigations, in addi- tion to this dear old woman we have had American officials here — for instance. Dr. Huntington, whom you have praised, and we have had Dr. Simons, and we have had the officers of the National City Bank, and we have had the officers of the Harvester Co., all corroborating this old lady in what they say as to starvation and red-handed murder among those people. Now, that is the testimony we have. I suppose, you have read it. Are they to be believed ? Mr. Robins. I have not read their testimony. Senator. So far as I know, the persons that you have suggested are reputable witnesses. I do not know, sir. The committee is free to judge of that. Senator Overman. The committee wants to be fair ; it wants to be impartial, and it wants to be just. We have your testimony. Of course, we have great respect for you as a man of character and ability and honor, and with you Miss Bryant and two or three others ; but en the other side here are Government officials, and these other people coming over here, who corroborate this old lady in what she says. We ought to pay respect to her and her testimony. The question before us is how to get at these facts. Of course, we want to get at the facts, and I do not know of anybody else that can give us the facts except these parties and yourself and others. You really left there — and do not know what occurred afterwards — a consider- , able time before these people left, and they speak of conditions as they saw them, and you speak of the conditions as you saw them. What transpired after you left you do not know ? Mr. EoBiNS. Absolutely right. Senator. Senator Sterling. Col. Eobins, if you will permit me, it seems to me that there is this difference between you and Madame Breshkov- sky, and your two viewpoints. Madame Breshkovsky, of course, is called the grandmother of the revolution, and she surely is a heroine. Mr. EoBiNS. Yes, sir ; she is entitled to it. Senator Steeling. She is entitled to be called that. She spent 32 years in prison or in exile, according to her testimony. Mr. EoBiNS. That is absolutely true. Senator Steeling. She was the leader of the socialists— the revolu- tionary socialist forces— and fought all these years to overthrow the 874 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. government of the Czar, but now she sees the Bolshevist terror. She may have sown some of the seeds of it in her propaganda for revo- lution in Russia, unconsciously, in talking about socialism and the overthrow of the constituted powers. But now, when she sees what it involves, the terror involved, the cruelty involved, the starvation in- volved, the tyranny involved, in Bolshevist rule, she protests, and cries out for help, for allied help, for American help — for economic help and armed help, both — and you bow before the storm. Mr. Robins. I do not think I bow before the storm. Senator Sterling. That is the difference between the two. Mr. Robins. It has not been my reputation to bow before anj storm. Senator. I have caught more bricks than I have bouquets in my lifetime, straight through, and expect to until I am through with the world, but, Senator Senator Steeling. Well, I mean this : You understand, I think Senator Hieam W. Johnson. I think the witness has a right to respond to an imputation of that sort. I am not a member of this committee. Senator Overman. He has a right to respond, but if he does not object Mr. Robins. Not at all ; I beg pardon. Senator Steeling. I was simply explaining further what I meant by the question; that is all. I did not intend to interrupt the wit- ness, except that I mean you would rather let the Bolshevist revolu- tion run its course than to do something to stay it ? Mr. Robins. No, Senator ; I would rather that the Russian people should run their course, and get the kind of government that they want, at considerable hazard and waste and cost, than that it should be changed by foreign rifles for the benefit of investments or for the benefit of advantage of one kind and another. That is an advantage, I think, secondary to the right of people to have their own govern- ment. Senator Sterling. Do you not think you assume something there when you say such intervention would be simply for the sake of investments ? Mr. Robins. I do not think so, sir, for this reason. After the Brest- Li to vsk peace was ratified on the 16th day of March, every allied military mission in Russia agreed in conference to help train the red army, as a sound action to protect the allied interests in Russia, work- ing with Trotsky, and it is in the record, if the committee wishes to reach it. I know that after that time the request was made of this Government to send in the railroad mission on the basis that we could cooperate. I know that when intervention was begun by the Japanese, and the desant took place at Vladivostok, there was a conference in Vologda in which the allied ambassadors, all that were in Russia, and the allied military chiefs, sat in, and the judgment was against inter- vention, and that a recommendation against intervention was made to the several allied governments, and I have a record of that fact. Further than that, I know that when it was discussed in Russia, there was on the part of our friends and allies at that time, the French Government, the desire to overthrow the Bolshevik government be- cause of their repudiation of foreign loans — a perfectly legitimate BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 875 desire on their part, but not one in which I thought America should share. Senator Oveeman. Now, Colonel, I think we all agree with you that all people ought to have such a government as they want. The question in my mind is this : It has been testified here repeatedly that those people are terrorized; that they can not get the government they want; that they have been disarmed, and whenever they at- tempt to assert their opinion as to what sort of government" they should have they are murdered, shot down; that the peasants have some of them risen up and asked for the soviet, as they want, or the Kerensky government, or such government as they want; that they have nothing to fight with ; that they have absolutely risen with sticks and pitchforks, when they have been assaulted by the Trotsky people; that the Trotsky people have gone down into the Soviets where the people were having their meetings to elect their representatives and when they elected their representatives the red army have gone into the meetings and overthrown the results of the meetings and elected their men instead of the men the people wanted. Now, what would you do in that situation ? The people are not able, according to the testimony here, to have the government they want, because the arms, the machine guns and the rifles, are in the hands of these people, and they absolutely will not let them have the govern- ment they want. You do not indorse such a thing as that ? Mr. Robins. Of course not, Senator. The whole question is a question of fact. Senator Overman. Yes. ■ Mr. Robins. Now, Senator, we have got 14 months of history be- hind us. This is the fact; that the revolution starts in Petrograd with the Bolsheviki, and they take possession of Petrograd with a very small fatality and wipe out the other provisional government with very little resistance; that the entire army, practically, from one end of it to the other, votes in its committees to support the soviet government ; that province after province votes to support the soviet government; that down in the Ukraine, the Ukrainian rada opposes the soviet government, and there rises a peasant movement in the Ukraine that defeats the Ukrainian rada, that captures Kiev and Odessa and holds them until the Ukrainian rada, encouraged by us mistakenly, sells out to the German power and brings in foreign rifles to overcome the local resistance of the peasants of the Ukraine. It is true that up in Finland the white guard starts to come down against red guard opposition. We mistakenly support the white guard at that time, thinking that they are our friends because they seem to be nice people — and at least they are fighting the terrible red guard— until we learn that von der Goltz has come in with a division of German soldiers, and Mannerheim the white guard general writes a declaration speaking of the noble Kaiser and the noble German troops and urging upon Finland that it recognize the great debt of gratitude due to Germany ; that in the strain of the present time she will send troops to help the white guard. Senator Nelson. There you are mistaken. It was not Manner- heim; it was Kuehlman. Mannerheim is the man who is in charge now, and who is opposed to the Bolshevik government. 876 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. EoBiNs. I am sorry, but I can show the Senator that it was Gen. Mannerheim, in charge of the White Guard, who wrote the declaration — I have a copy of it — in which he made his statement to the German general who had come in and made a protestation of fealty to him; and the Senator will know that under the White Guard control in Finland they elected a German prince as the King of Finland, and it was only after the failure of the German power that again the White Guard switched, and said, " We will work now with the English and the allies." Senator Nelson. Mannerheim left the country for a while, came through Sweden, came through England to Paris, and was gone, and has only lately returned to the country. Mr. Robins. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. At the last account I saw of him he was at iStock- holm. He was not in that movement that you speak of, at all. Mr. Robins. On the contrary Senator Nelson. No, sir. Mr. Robins. I am sorry, Senator, but you are mistaken. Senator Nelson. He was not, at all. Mr. Robins. I do not wish to Senator Nelson. And he did not have a hand in the movement to elect a German prince. He was opposed to it. Mr. Robins. I am sorry, sir ; but I think that when Senator Nelson. Well, I am sorry for you, sir. I am sorry for you, sir. Mr. Robins. I may deserve the sympathy, Senator, and I regret it if I do; but you would not have me say anything I did not think was so. Senator Nelson. Well, you would not have me say anything I did not think to be so, either. Mr. Robins. I know you would not do it. Senator, and I think maybe you think the same of me, that I would not say anything con- sciously that I thought was not true, and you would not have me agree with a statement, if it was made, however honestly, if I though it was not true. You would not have that, I know Senator Nelson. No. Mr. Robins. Because you believe I am an honest man. Senator Overman. Alter all, it is a question of fact. Mr. Robins. Yes ; it is. Senator. Senator Hieam W. Johnson. May I ask you whether or not there is in existence a statement by Gen. Mannerheim, and whether or not it can be obtained ? Senator Overman. We would like to have it. Mr. Robins. There is such a statement here. I shall be very glad to furnish it to the committee. Senator Hieam W. Johnson. Can it be obtained? Mr. Robins. It can. Senator Hieam W. Johnson. All right. May it be put in the record, Mr. Chairman ? Senator Overman. Why, of course. Senator Hiram W. Johnson. Then it will decide the question between Senator Nelson and the witness. Mr. Robins. I will furnish it for the record. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 877 [ (The following three paragraphs constitute a statement furnished by Mr. Eobins after the close of the hearings :) The welcome of Gen. Mannerheim, commander of the Finnish White Guards, to the German troops landing on Finnish soil, was published in the London Daily News, No. 22491, on April 11, 1918, in column 7 of page 3 of that paper. The authority given is a Reuter dispatch from Stocldiolm dated Wednesday, April 10, 1918. Gen. Mannerheim's statement as published follows : At the request of the Finnish Government detachments of Germany's victorious and powerful army have landed on Finnish soil to help us drive out the Bolshevists and their murderous adherents. I am convinced that this brother- hood in arms, which during the present struggle is -being sealed with blood, will only serve to strengthen the friendship and confidence that Finland has always felt for Germany's great Kaiser and his mighty people. I hope that Finland's young army now fighting side by side with Germany's historic troops may become permeated with that iron discipline, perfect order, and lofty sense of duty which have served to create the greatness of Germany's army and which have led it on from victory to victory. In bidding Germany's brave warriors welcome to Finland, I therefore trust that every man in the Finnish Army will prove his appreciation of the great sacrifice which Germany's people are now making for our country at a time when every man is needed for their own country's war. Confirming the accuracy of this Renter dispatch, the fact is that I received about this time information in Russia that a statement sub- stantially as quoted above had been issued by Gen. Mannerheim in welcoming the German troops. Upon receiving this information I communicated the substance of Gen. Mannerheim's statement to Hon. David R. Francis, the American ambassador to Russia, who was then at Vologda.] , Senator Steeling. May I just call your attention, Col. Robins, to a statement that was made by Madame Breshkovskaya in her testi- mony, just to get her viewpoint and her idea as to the needs of Russia ? She was asked these questions [reading] : Senator Steeling. Po you think a sufficient allied force in Russia would help to restore the constituent assembly to power and give you a democratic government? Mrs. Breshkovskaya. Not only a large force of troops would help, but if com- mittees would come to Russia and ask to have an assembly formed in Russia, it would help. If you had come to our help a year ago, perhaps 20,000 of your troops would have been sufficient. Now it will take 50,000 ; not less and perhaps more. Fifty thousand armed troops that would fight would help us to reestablish the constituent assembly. Senator Steeling. Do you think, Madam.e, that an army of 1-5,000 or 20,000 allied troops would have prevented the establishment of a Bolshevik government in Moscow? Mrs. Bbeshkovskaya. I am sure of it. Even yesterday a Czecho-Slovak said to me that if they were not supported they could not hold out ; they could not fight alone. The Russian people have no arms and the Bolsheviki would be sure to get through into Ukrainia, and with the aid of the German troops they would go straight through the country. If you put a million troops in a place and they did nothing, they would not be as good as 50,000 troops who could fight. If you get 50,000 troops that will fight, that will be enough. Senator Steeling. Do you think such troops would be welcomed by all but the •Bolsheviki ? Mrs. Beeshkovskaya. Certainly, if they asked for them a year ago. They are crying, " Save us. Come and defeat the Bolsheviki, for we can not exist. There is no work in Russia." Senator Steeling. Suppose this Bolshevik rule goes on, and as a result of Bolshevik rule there is disorder and chaos In Russia, will it not lead eventually to the domination of Russia by Germany? Mrs. Beeshkovskaya. Certainly. 878 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. EoBiNS. The last conclusion I agree with — the only one of the statement. Senator, is that greatly different from what ]\ladame Botchkareva said ? Did we not act in a sense on that basis, and have we not had a rather poor story as the consequence of acting on that sort of testimony ? Senator Sterling. I do not know what Madame Botchkareva said. I'did not hear her testimony. Mr. EoBiNS. Senator, may I ask, did jNIadame Breshkovskava say that she would like to have allied troops and French and Japanese in Russia ? Senator Steeling. She does not say that she M'ould like to have Japanese in Russia. Mr. Robins. Would the Senator agree with the suggestion that the international situation would not permit any one nation to go in and deal with the situation ; that intervention has always involved a coop- eration with the Japanese by reason of proximity and interest; and that because of that, any intervention that did have Japanese troops with it immediately raises the boldest, most historic resentment, and the national and race hatred that exists in Russia and unites around the standard of Russia, even Soviet Bolshevik Russia, all those who have the ancient, historic opposition to yellow domination in Russia ''. Senator Sterling. I think this, Col. Robins, in regard to that, that the Russian people would have faith in the assurances of the other allied powers in regard to Japan and as to how far Japan might go. I think they would have faith, if the representation was prop- erly made and made by the right kind of people, in the statement that Japan should not, by means of her help in Russia, acquire territory or extend her sphere of influence in Russia beyond what it is already. T think the allied powers would give such assurances. Mr. Robins. Is the Senator familiar Avith the claim that has been made in Russia that already the mineral region of the Amur has been turned over to the Japanese, and that that is one basis of a very consid- erable culture in Russia against any further surrender to any sort of allied intervention? Senator Sterling. No : I am not familiar with that at all. Ml-. Robins. I think the Senator can be familiar with that if he wishes. Senator Overjian. You may proceed, Maj. Humes. I am sorry we got off on this subject, but it is very interesting. Mr. HuJiES. You have referred to counter-revolutionary move- ments. Is it not L fact that counter-revolution in Russia, as viewed by the existing government, means any government opposed to the Bolshevik rule rather than a government intended to restore the old regime or to interfere with the March re\-olution? Is not that a fact . Mr. Robins. The answer to that, if I know the answer, 'Mr. Humes. is something like this. The situation is a situation of reality rather than of words. Every group that has achieved any sort of opposition to the Bolsheviki, no matter what it has called itself at the start, has finished under the domination ot a semidictatorship that represented, when it was analyzed, the old regime. Take, for instance, the move- ment at Ufa, in which Nicholas Aksentieff and Tchernoff and certain others of the social revolutionists of the right formed a provisional government, and then in a night, as they claim — I have Aksentiett s rOLSiiCVIK rilOPAGANDA. 879' statement for it — reactionaries under Kolchak took possession. We know what Admiral Kolchak was under the old regime, those of us who wish to know. We know what it means. We knoA¥ what Dene- kine means in the south. It means exactly the same thing, the return of the old order, even though it be claimed to mean every nice and attractive thing; and the situation in revolutionary Eussia is that the real interest behind these movements is the old order, and that is the reason why " Save the revolution ; all power to the soviet " cre- ates such a unity in the Russian revolutionary mind against foreign intervention. Mr. Humes. In other words, the Bolshevik government uses as its slogan " Save the revolution " as propaganda to defeat any move- ment, even though it be revolutionary in its nature, that is opposed to another control than the Bolshevik control ? Mr. EoBiNS. That is just exactly what I did not say, Mr. Humes. Mr. Humes. That is what I understood you to say. Mr. EoBiNS. I am sorry. Mr. Humes. Is not that a fact ? Mr. EoBiNS. No, sir ; I do not think it to be a fact. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that the Bolshevik government has. disarmed all elements of the population who are not in accord with the Bolshevik rule, as distinguished, now, from the soviet — the politi- cal party as distinguished from the so-called form of government ? Mr. EoBiNS. Wherever they have met opposition, wherever there have been movements that have been called, whether rightly or not, counter-revolutions, and they have taken possession of that movement^ as they have in countless instances, they have disarmed the partici- pants in it. Mr. Humes. Yes ; and at the present time the Bolshevik party and the controlling element control all of the rifles and all of the firearms and all of the ammunition that is availalile in Eussia, do they not? Mr. EoBiNS. I do not know. On the contrary, I have heard that several of the Soviets since the cooperation of the Mensheviki and social revolutionists of the right, which grew out of the intervention movement — some of the local Soviets are Menshevik and are not Bol- shevik at the present moment. I do not know whether that is true- or not. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that those who are advocating the cause of the Mensheviki are looked upon as counter-revolutionists by the Bolsheviki ? ' Mr. EoBiNS. On the contrary, the Mensheviki, as I understand it ROW, are in alliance with the Bolsheviki and are sharing in the gov- ernment. If we could ascertain the facts, we would know whether that is so or not. I do not know whether it is so, but I have seen enough of statements to that effect for me to begin to believe it. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that the press of Eussia, all of the- press of Eussia that is not supporting the Bolsheviki, has been sup- ]3ressed ? Mr. EoBiNS. Well, it was not the fact when I was in Eussia. It ^vas the fact when I was in Eussia that at certain periods of real dis- tui'bance and excitement under the Kerensky government they sup- pressed all opposition to the Kerensky government; and there was also a time later, when the Bolsheviki took power, for three weeks or 880 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. SO, that thej' suppressed all opposition to the Bolsheviki. Then one by one, the other papers came back, and when I left Russia there were in daily publication in Moscow the Noshe Slovo and other- papers which are bitterly opposed to the Bolsheviki in their leading editorials every day. I had my translating force give me the whole reaction from the opposition press day by day, and I have those trans- lations, most of them, in this country now. Mr. Htimes. Mr. Albert Rhys Williams, of whom I presume you know Mr. Robins. I know of him ; yes, sir. Mr. Humes. He admits, and admitted here on the stand, that the press had been suppressed. Can you conceive that that admission would have been made by him if it was not a fact ? Mr. Robins. I would not try to conceive in regard to any of the mental operations of Mr. Williams at all. Mr. Htjmes. Do you know of your own knowledge what the situation is with reference to the press since you left Russia ? Mr. Robins. I do not, sir, except this — ^with just this qualification — that Maj. Allen Wardwell brought out with him a number of papers, some of which I have seen, some of them along as late as the 1st of October— issues of the opposition press in Russia. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that even in the constitution of the soviet republic and in the decrees that have been issued, the freedom of the press is denied and justified? Mr. Robins. That the suppression of the press, or what they call the counter-revolutionary press, was justified in public statement by certain immediate decrees that were not permanent, is absolutely true so far as I know. Mr. Htjmes. Even the constitution, which I assume is somewhat fundamental, provides for a suppressed press, does it not? Mr. Robins. I do not think so, sir. Mr. Htjmes. You have read that constitution ? Mr. Robins. Yes. Mr. Htjmes. Does not that constitution provide that all of the news- papers of the republic or of the country shall be nationalized and become the property of the government itself, together with all of the facilities necessary to the publication of public prints ? Mr. Robins. In the inception of the government that resolution ■was passed. Mr. Humes. And it was deemed a part of the so-called fundamental law, was it not ? Mr. Robins. I do not understand that to be true. Mr. Humes. Section 14, provision 2 — I will not take the time to read it — covers that subject. ;Mr. Robins. What I think counsel is reading from is certain decrees thrown together and said to be the constiution. Counsel can get the actual constitution. It was published, if I am correct, in the New York Tribune in the first instance in this country, and I think other authenticated copies have been extant. There have been a number of publications, Mr. Chairman, of alleged constitutions of the soviet republic which embodied a number of decrees, and people eager to get out with an issue have said this was the constitution, when they had really the special decrees either of the executive committee BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. OOX or of the commissars' council, and sometimes mixed those decrees with the definite constitution of the 5th of July — or whatever time it was in July — 1918. Mr. Humes. Col. Robins, you need not discuss that, because I have a copy of the constitution printed in Moscow, published by the de- partment of foreign political literature of the people's commissariat for foreign affairs, Russian Socialist Federal Soviet Republic. Mr. Robins. What time? Mr. Humes. 1918.' Mr. Robins. Do you know what time it was ? Mr. Humes. The date on this is Moscow, 1918, and it says : " Pub- lished by the department of foreign political literature of the people's commissariat," and we have a right to assume that their official publi- cations are authentic. Mr. Robins. Of course, what we are really after is the facts. The little pamphlet that the counsel holds in his hand, if I am correct, is one that was published before I left Russia, and was brought out — some of them, I think — ^by Mr. Williams. That was before the actual constitution of the soviet was passed, and it is simply a collection of decrees passed by the executive committee. Mr. Humes. AVhen was the constitution finally adopted, then? Mr. Robins. So far as my knowledge goes, it was adopted some time in July, 1918, and as I understand from comparison of several copies, in which there are some differences, the largest agreement seemed to me in the one published in a certain Sunday issue of the New York Tribune. I will send counsel a copy of it. Mr. Humes. The man who came to this country or proposed to come to this country as consul general of the soviet government, and Mr. Albert Rhys Williams who came to this country for the purpose of establishing a Russian information bureau, both of whom say that this is the constitution of the soviet republic, are in error, and these quasi-official representatives of the soviet government lack authentic information as to what the fundamental law is in Russia at this time, and have not as much information on that subject, apparently, as you have. Colonel ? Mr. Robins. Now, Mr. Humes, I do not want to claim any special wisdom here, and I meet these dignities and authorities that you have given my friends — if they be my friends — ^thus suddenly, and I may be found in variance with their statements, as I may be found in vari- ance with the statements of others; but I shall make the statement that I think to be true, under the pains and penalties of perjury here, and keep on making that statement, and I can not be led into making any statement but what I think is true, without regard to the state- ments made by others, whether they be friends and allies or not. Mr. Humes. Do not misunderstand me. I am trying to find out what the constitution of the soviet is. Mr. Robins. I am trying to tell you where you can get it. Mr. Humes. Both Mr. Reed and Mr. Williams produced here a publication from Moscow, published under the authority of the com- missariat of the Russian republic, and they say that that is the constitution. Now, you tell us that if we are seeking the facts of the constitution we will have to resort to the New York Tribune for something that is more authentic than the publication from Moscow 85723—19 56 882 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. that they have presented as an authentic document. I am simply trying to ascertain just wliat this fundamental law is and what your authority is for saying that the constitution printed in the New York Tribune is more authentic than the one that has been produced by the quasi-official representatives, at least, of the Bolshevik govern- ment. Mr. EoBiNS. If you will ask me that, I will tell you quite frankly that the constitution as published in the New York Tribune was the constitution adopted by an all-Eussian national soviet in, as I under- stand it, the early part of July, and this was a combination of decrees of the executive committee, and otherwise, and some decrees passed by previous assemblies, and published for the purpose of propaganda. Mr. Humes. Now, what all-Russian soviet was that, by number? Mr. EoBixs. Five. Mr. Hu3iEs. Five. Then I will call your attention to the fact that this is that constitution. It is headed " Decision of the fifth all-E\is- sian convention of Soviets, adopted at the session of July 10, 1918." Mr. EoBiNS. Then I was simply mistaken in the looks of that pamphlet as I have seen it, looking at it from over here. I have not seen it closer. Will you let me look at it over here, because there was a pamphlet of that sort distributed. [After examining pam- phlet.] This is not the pamphlet that I thought it was, and is the other pamphlet, and I believe, so far as I can see it by just looking it over, that it is the same that I spoke of as published in the Tribune. Mr. Humes. I thought that I was not in error when I was using it as an authentic document. Senator Nelson. Eead the part that pertains to the press there in it. Mr. Humes (reading) : 14. For the purpose of securing for the toilers real freedom of exiiression of their opinions the R. S. F. S. R. abolishes the dependence of the press upon capital and places in the hands of the working class and of the poorer ele- ments of the peasantry all technical and material means for publication of newspapers, pamphlets, books, and all other press productions, and secures their free circulation throughout the country. That is one provision. Then, here is another : 23. Guided by the interests of the working class as a whole, the R. S. F. S. R. deprives individuals and separate groups of any rights which they may be using to the detriment of the Socialist Revolution. Now, is not that the taking over by the government of the press of the country ; and, pursuant to that, did the government not seize all of the presses and all of the things necessary to the printing of publications of various kinds, and in effect nationalize them? Mr. EoBiNs. Mr. Humes, there are two questions there. The first question is whether or not the one provision provides for nationaliza- tion of the press. I understand that it does, as it provides for the nationalization of everything under the particular formulas of social- ism that mark the government. That the actual result of that is to suppress freedom of expression or protest against the Bolsheyiki is absolutely untrue, based on past experience, unless it is changed since I left there. The bitterest and most savage attack that I heard against the Bolsheviki in Eussia was the attack of the social revolutionists BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 883 of the Left, a party constituent of the government that accepts the soviet but utterly rejects the Bolshevik party as such, and is contend- ing for control of the soviet against the Bolshevik party. There were seven such parties — seven parties in the soviet — and those seven parties had organs, and they spoke in contest, one with an- other, on principles and methods, and all claimed to be revolutionary and claimed to be in favor of the soviet. Mr. Humes. You, of course, have no knowledge as to what has been done with the press since you left there last June ? Mr. Robins. I have not, except I have these several issues of the papers that I spoke of as having been brought out, which are in op- position to the Bolsheviki. Mr. Humes. The testimony which has been produced to this com- mittee by those who are defending the Bolsheviki, as well as by those^ who were not in sympathy with their activities, in so far as it affected conditions as they existed last fall, in October, November, and De- cember, was uniformly to the effect that there was no freedom of press and no freedom of speech; that no newspaper was permitted, except those that were controlled and dominated by the Bolshevik government. Have you any authentic or personal information con- trary to that information which has come to the committee with com- plete unanimity from every witness ? Mr. EoBiNS. I have translations from the newspapers in Russia for a period after I left, and statements in relation to opposition papers, of their having been fined 10,000 roubles and 25,000 roubles, and other numbers of roubles, for printing what the court, or whatever the au- thority was, said were false statements of fact, calculated to betray the minds of the people in Russia ; showing that if they fined them so many rubles for publishing the statement, for which they were fined, they must have been in publication at that time. Mr. Humes. During what period of time was that ? Mr. Robins. Well, if I am to go to it, I will try and find one of thejn here. Mr. Humes. I do not mean by exact dates, but by months, say ? Mr. Robins. June and July. Mr. Humes. June and July. Mr. Robins. And the latter part of May, after I had left. Mr. Humes. Is it not probable that a procedure of that kind was a preliminary step in the suppression of the freedom of the press, as the imposing of severe penalties is probably one of the most effective methods of putting a newspaper out of commission ? Mr. Robins. Of course you can make the argument and the deduc- tion. It is open to one. Mr. Humes. "Well, is it? Mr. Robins. Is it? Mr. Humes. Is it not a logical deduction ? Mr. Robins. I should not say so. I should think if they had the power and wanted to keep the paper from being published they would keep it from being published. They had the power. Mr. Humes. Then we must assume this, that if the newspapers were being fined for publications that were being made of false statements of fact, there was at least as stringent a limitation placed 884 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. upon the freedom of the press as is being complained about in this country under existing laws ? ' Mr. EoBiNS. Was it not rather interesting that you should "-et there, Mr. Humes? As a matter of fact, the suppression of some papers in America — and I am in favor of the suppression of any newspapers that counsel force as soon as they have done so — the suppression of certain papers for no reason at all has taken place in our country, and there are those who are full of question and resent- ment about it; and the suppression of the press in time of struggle and conflict is no new thing in the story of men. I do not know just what you are after in this inquiry, but really, where does it lead us? What is the point in view? Mr. Humes. One of the continual contentions of those who are defending Bolshevism in this country to-day is that we have not the freedom of press and the freedom of speech in this country, and Bolshevism is pointed to as one of the remedies for this alleged evil that we are meeting with in this country. Now, is it not a fact that the Bolshevism that is being defended by these same agitators in this country is adopting even more drastic methods to suppress the press and to suppress freedom of speech than have been ever undertaken in this country? Mr. Robins. My own belief about that is that that question in- volves a statement that is true. But may I say this ? You are mis- taken in the witn&ss if you want anybody to defend the Bolshevik program, and I shall not be put in any such position. I have never defended it and never shall, but I opposed it steadily in Russia. I did my best to see that it did not get a foothold. Then after it got a foothold I did my best to see that it be not used so that Russia would be turned over to the German power. I did my best to get the national and international interests of the allies protected in that position. I simply refused, and shall refuse steadily, to libel any- body, and to say that I saw things that, honestly and frankly, I did not see. I may be entirely unintelligent ; I may not know anything about it ; but I am going to state tlie facts as honestly as I can, as I know them to be, and have been doing so ; and you will not have any real success in trying to have me defend the Bolshevik government, nor will you "have any real success in having me criticize people who have made statements differing from mine. They are responsible for their statements, and I hope they have told the truth ; and they are as much concerned as or more concerned than I myself ; and whether this he Madame Breshkovky [Breshkovskaya] or Mr. Williams, who has made statements different from mine, I do not care. I am not in their position nor responsible for their statements. Mr. Humes. Do not misunderstand me. We are not seeking to put you in any position. Mr. Robins. Yes, Mr. Humes. Mr. Humes. We are seeking the facts. For instance, I have before me what has become an official publication of the Bolshevik activity in this country. It contains many statements of fact, or alleged state- ments of fact, presented to the people of this country for the purpose of trying to convince them as to the condition of affairs that exists in Russia. Among other things, Mr. Williams declares that we are without freedom of press or freedom of speech in this country, and BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 885 the Bolsheviki guarantee that thing which we lack in this country. I want to deter'mine, if I can, whether or not Mr. Williams in his propaganda is giving the people of this country a true comparison of the relative positions of this Government and the Bolshevik govern- ment. Mr. Robins. 1 am sorry that I can not agree with the statement or with the conclusion ; and if I am in error Mr. Williams is right, and if Mr. Williams is in error I am right; but I know of no justification for that statement. Mr. Humes. Col. Eobins, why, if you know, is there a discrimina- tion between the representation that is accorded to the workingmen. in the soviet in Russia and the representation allowed to the peasants, -who are the large and predominating proportion in the population ? Mr. EoBiNS. 1 do not understand that that is true, as any fixed rule. Mr. HtTMES. The constitution provides that the representation in the soviet in the cities and among the workmen shall be 1 to every 25,000, while in the provincial districts and among the peasants the representation in the soviet is only 1 to every 125,000. Do you know from your knowledge of the situation in Russia why that discrimination was made and as to whether or not the attitude of the peasants against the Bolshevik rule was responsible for the insertion of that provision in the constitution which gives the peasants less representation than those in the city districts ? Mr. Robins. I do not; but I think I know this, that the Fourth AU- Russian Soviet contained a majority of peasant delegates, and that the peasant delegates were in a majority in favor of ratification and the workingmen 's delegates from the factories were in majority against ratification, and the Fourth All-Russian Soviet, instead of being dominated by the workingmen, was, in my judgment of the facts, dominated by the peasant delegates. Mr. Humes. What was the situation in the Fifth All-Russian Soviet? Mr. Robins. That took place after I left, and I can not answer. Mr. Humes. It was the Fifth All-Russian Council that adopted this constitution. Mr. Robins. Yes; as I understand. Mr. Humes. Yes. Mr. Robins. I do not know what the situation was there. Mr. Humes. Is it not your opinion, from your knowledge of the situation, that the discrimination was made in order to prevent the peasants from controlling, to a considerable degree, the Bolshevik government, and to preserve the power of the Bolsheviki in Petrograd and Moscow and a few of the cities; in other words, to permit that 9 per cent to dominate the 84 per cent? Mr. Robins. Not in my judgment. But I Avish to say that I have no special wisdom, here. I should say that the reason for it was that on the basis of producers' social control, which is the theory, as I understand it, of the soviet organization, the representation in re- gard to crafts, in regard to occupational production in manufac- tures, which is more diversified and represents a less number for a, single production than the general agricultural peasant production, accounts for larger representation of persons on smaller basis of number in the industrial districts as against tlie peasant districts. 886 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. The soviet, as I understand it, is not based on any idea of necessarily one person for so many other persons, but one person for so many persons engaged in a craft or engaged in a particular production, and the effort of the soviet program, as I understand it, was to have adequate representation of all of the producing forces in the economic life of Russia that help to feed and clothe and house the people. Whether it was worked out or not I do not know. Mr. Humes. The constitution provides as follows : 25. The AU-Russian Convention of .'>i)vlets is formed of representatives of the Soviets of the cities on the basis of one deputy for 25,000 electors, and of representatives of the provincial ("gubernia") conventions of Soviets on the basis of one deputy for 125,000 inhabitants. Mr. RoBixs. Yes; I remember your reading that statement a little while ago. Mr. Humes. Now, is it not a fact that the 9 per cent of the people in the cities absolutely dominate the present Bolshevik government, and by force of arms and by use of the Red Guard and terrorism in the rural districts force the peasants to submit to a continuance of that government? Mr. Robins. What made the condition at the time I do not know, but up to the time I left Russia I do not consider that to be true. Mr. Humes. You have no knowledge of that condition since last June? Mr. Robins. None that is secure. Mr. Humes. In your work in Russia, is it or is it not a fact that you used an interpreter? Mr. Robins. It is so. Mr. Humes. Do you speak Russian ? Mr. Robins. No, sir; only a very limited vocabulary. Mr. Humes. Then the information you got and the conversation which you had at various times with Russians and those who could not speak English was through an interpreter ? Mr. Robins. Yes. Mr. Humes. Who was that interpreter? Mr. Robins. Alexander Gumberg. Mr. Humes. Is it not a fact that this interpreter was connected with the Bolshevik government? Mr. Robins. No, sir ; he was never at any time connected with the Bolshevik government. Mr. Humes. Did he have a brother who was one of the com- missars ? Mr. Robins. He had a brother, Zoren, who was a commissar of the northern commune of the Bolshevik government. He had a brother who was a Menshevik, one of the provisional Kerensky government, who was arrested ^hen the Bolsheviki took power, and we had to exercise our influence to protect him, because he, in the Ukraine, led in a counter-revolutionary movement, so-called. He had one brother who was a Bolshevik, and he had another brother who was a Menshevik, and he was himself a Menshevik in politics. Mr. Humes. Yesterday, Col. Robins, you referred to the Koot mission and to the unfortunate publicity that had been given to a cer- tain statement made in the American press as to the character of Mr. BOLSHEVIK "propaganda. 887 Root and his affiliations and his purposes. What was the nature of those publications in this country that were cited in Eussia and used as the basis of that propaganda ? Mr. Robins. It is desired by the committee that I should answer that question ? Senator Overman. If you do not desire .to answer it, you need not do so. Mr. Robins. I will do just as the committee wishes. It brings in an extra-local situation that, personally, I should think really would not serve the purposes of the committee, but if the committee' rules the other way, I shall, of course, answer the question. Senator Overman. If you do not want to answer it I shall not force you to do it. Mr. Robins. Thank you, Senator. Before we leave the question of my interpreter, I wish to submit and have filed in the record the following letters. [Reading :] Special Diplomatic Mission OP THE United States of America, Petroffrad, June 26, July 9, 1917. My Dear Me. Stevens : I have asked Mr. Alex.. Gumberg, whose card I in- close, to be sure to see you before you leave Petrograd. Mr. Gumberg has been of greatest possible assistance to us in our part of the work here, and has been so intelligent, kindly, and helpful that I feel I ought to put you in a position to avail yourself of his interest in case an occasion should arise. Mr. Gumberg is a patriotic Russian, has been fourteen years in America, and has a most thorough understanding of the situation in both countries. I beg for him your kindly attention. Yours, very truly, Charles Edward Russell. Hon. John F. Stevens, Chairman Advisory Commission of Railtoay Experts, Petrograd. Mr. Russell was a member of the United States Mission to Russia. Mr. Gumberg served him as interpreter, and served the mission, and secured through the Petrograd Soviet an agreement to accept help from the United States which might not otherwise have been given to the Kerensky government. It is a matter of history. The original letters can be produced before the committee at any time. I present a copy at this time, which I have read into the record. I present another letter. [Reading :] The Associated Press, Moscow Office, Moscow, May 14, 1918. Mr. Melville Stone, The Associated Press, 51 Chainbers Street, New York City. My Dear Mb. Stone : This letter will introduce Mr. Alexander Gumberg, who is to take charge of the Petrograd Telegraph Agency's interests in the United States, and whom I am sure you will enjoy knowing. Mr. Gumberg is the personal friend of Mr. Lenine, Mr. Trotzky, and scores of the other leaders in the Russian Government, and has rendered great services to the United States, through bringing Americans in touch with the heads of the Soviet Government at a time when official relations were badly strained. Mr. Gumberg has been in Russia for the last year. He was of great assistance to the Root mission, and after the collapse of the Kerensky government became the medium through which the American Embassy kept in touch with the new government. He was identiiied with the American Red Cross, which was the organization here under the direction of Col. Robins that unofficially dealt with the Soviet Government on behalf of the embassy. 888 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. I am under deep obligation to Mr. Gumberg for the assistance he rendered oiir bureau here and in Petrograd and wish to commend him to you as a man with fuller knowledge than anyone I know concerning Russia's history for the last year and worthy of your complete confidence. Very sincerely, yours, Chablks Stephenson Smith. Introducing Mr. Alexander Gumberg. Mr. Smith was the head of the Associated Press in Petrograd, who had been head of the Associated Press in the Far East, in Peking, for a number of years ; a man of middle years, Senators, and a man of very real discrimination, as you may imagine, to have held that long service in the Associated Press. I submit this copy of that letter. I submit here another letter. [Eeading:] The Committee on Public Infobmation, The United States of America, Russian Peess Division, Petrograd, Russia, January 10, 1918. Geaham R. Tai'loe, JUanaycr. Gorokhoiaia 4, Apt. 1.',, Tel. J,3-1S: This is to certify that Alexander Gumberg is an authorized representative of the Russian Press Division of the Committee on Public Information of the United States of America. Courtesies extended to him in the matter of news gathering will be appreciated. Russian Peess DmsiON, Committee on Public Infoemation, Arthur Bullaed, Director. I state that I have seen and can produce the originals of each of these letters, and I declare them to be true and genuine originals. Senator Overman. Thej' will be put in the record. Mr. Robins. I offer another letter. [Eeading:] " Memo, of agreement between Edgar G. Sisson, Committee on Public Information, and Alexander Gumberg Edgar G. Sisson offers and Alexander Gumberg accepts for his services in the matter of organization of the distribution of the motion pictures and the bulle- tin publications of the Committee on Public Information in Russia for such period as may be required by Edgar G. Sisson, provided it is not longer than the stay of Lieut. Col. Raymond Robins in Russia, the sum of $5,000, to be placed to his (Alexander Gumberg's) credit in New York City. Alex. Gumbeeg. Edgae G. Sisson. Peteogkad, January 21, 191S. May I make the statement that the services of this Russian, Alex- ander Gumberg, and the character of those services, under stress and under fire, were such as to make that man, in my judgment, the most serviceable single Russian person in the most difficult days of the Russian situation? I brought him out to the United States with me. I am behind him with full support and credit at all times, and ready to appear before this body or any proper body of the United States, or its courts, in defense of his patriotism, in defense of his genuine, manly service; and when, sirs, he was attacked, after I came out here, as a German agent, by lying statements that did not dare to see the light, I challenged those persons who sought to discredit him that I be called upon, or in the courts to be called upon, to test the matter; and those lying, cowardly slanders ran back into the dark. It was said to me, "Robins, yon are safe. You are strong, in spite of the propaganda to discredit BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 889 you; that is, in spite of all said against you, you can survive; but ditch this little Jew. There is some question about him." I said, " Not in seven thousand years. I am not built on that principle." And I think, Mr. Chairman, that you are not built on it, nor are any of you three in this committee. That little Jew went through fire with me. That little Jew lay on his belly when machine-gim bullets went into the wall above us and all around us. That little Jew stood up on the fender of my automobile when we were surrounded by the pro-German anarchists, armed with bayonetted guns and magazine pistgls, who came from that headquarters where when it was raided were found the Ger- man machine g-uns not found elsewhere in Russia; that little Jew looked down on cocked rifles and, with a gun pushed against his belly, grinned, and said to the anarchist thieves : '' You are not afraid, are you?" and I am with him to the end of the road. [Applause.] Senator Overman. Let us have order in here, ladies and gentlemen. Mr. Humes. I did not know that anyone was making an attack. Mr. EoBiNS. I do not lay anything against j'ou, Mr. Humes, but there Avere three specific charges Senator Overman. There is no attack that has been made in this committee that I have heard. Mr. EoBiNS. No, sir; but there was a siiggestion of an attack in Mr. Humes's statement that an alleged pro-Bolshevik was my inter- preter, and the inference was perfectly apparent, Mr. Chairman, that I had apparently got minisformation and was acting on misin- formation. I have been pretty careful in the day's work. My own life and the lives of men worth a great deal more than mine, who were engaged in this work, were involved, and large supplies, and so far as known, not a single dollar's worth of supplies ever reached Germany, that we had in Russia. They were all distributed there to the Russian people. The American Red Cross distributed 400,000 cans of milk to starving babies in Russia, and it was done at a time when it was believed that the Germans would get there and take it before it could be distributed. Senator Overman. There is nothing in the record against Mr. Gumberg, that I have heard of. Mr. Humes. It is a fact, however, that the information you got from Russian sources you were compelled to get through an inter- preter, and that you did not have the advantage and the facility of being able to converse directly with the Russians with whom you came in contact ? Mr. Robins. Quite true. Mr. Humes. And to that extent you labored under a handicap that those who were familiar with the Russian language did not labor under in conversing with the Russians with whom thej' came in con- tact, is not that correct ? Mr. Robins. Certainly. Mr. Humes. That is the only point I had in mind. Mr. Robins. Will Mr. Humes also refer to the fact that Madame Lebedeff, the daughter of Prince Kropotkin, was my interpreter, and my aid and most confidential adviser through a long period of my stay in Russia, and probably her interpretation would not be adverse 890 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. to some of the positions that have been taken contrary to my posi- tion here. Senator Sterling. Was she related to Col. Lebedeff ? Mr. EoBiNS. No, sir ; she is in no way related to Col. Lebedeff. Mr. Hu3iES. Is it my understanding that the committee does not care to go into any of the propaganda in connection with the Root mission ? Senator Overman. Xo. He has a reason — I suppose a good rea- son — for not wanting to answer any questions of that kind. You can ask any question yqu want to, and if he declines to answer it, I will rule upon it. JNIr. Hu3iES. The witness yesterday made a statement that the work of the Eoot mission was very much handicapped because of the misimpression that got into Russia as to the standing and char- acter of the head of that mission, and as to the purpose which had led him to imdertake the work of a mission in Russia, and it was my purpose to find out what the influences were that had worked £0 iDrejudicially, and I do not suppose that we can very well go into that matter unless we imdertake to uncover these activities. Senator Oveejiax. You might ask him the question, and if he does not want to answer, I would not want to go into it. Mr. Htjjies. There is nothing, imless an answer to that question would develop it. I do not know what the answer would be, what the influences were, the American influences, the German influences, or some foreign influeiice. Consequently I am not able to determine whether there is any proper line of inquiry beyond that or not. Senator Sterling. It is my understanding, Mr. Chairman, that the inquiry of Mr. Humes just related to the publication, if I remem- ber it. jNIr. Robins. Xc. sir; he asked what the publications — my state- ment was simple, and I think rather clear, that in a certain contro- versy in America that had preceded the Root mission, Mr. Root had taken a position that had brought upon him the condemnation of a powerful public personage in America, and there had followed certain publications, as the result of that situation, that criticized Mr. Root in a very unattractive fashi( n and were particularly hurtful, in the Rus- sian revolutionary movement, to cooperation between America and Russia. Senator \ei.s(.in. To bring you point-blank to it, was not that in the New York American? ^Ve nijed not hedge. Were not those cartoons ihnt vilified 3.1r. Root in that publication? ]\Iv. Robins. No, Senator; I think they were not. Senator Sterling. Would you be at liberty to say in what paper, or what papers ? Mr. Robins. I would rather not. I will do so if the committee desires. Senator Over:man. I do not think that is necessary. The truth about it is that there were such statements. ^Ir. Robins. And they were distributed in Russia. That is the real, vital thing. Mr. Htjmes. Col. Robins, let us pass over the American source oi this material. How and by whom were these articles distributed m Russia ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 891 Mr. Robins. That I do not know, sir, further than that they were distributed; and my own judgment K?as that it was pro-German stuff and was distributed ahead of the mission and behind the mission, in order to discredit those that came with the American mission, so that relationship between America and Russia would be less possible. Mr. Humes. Then these publications in this country were utilized as pro-German propaganda in Russia for the purpose of defeating the purpose of these men and the work undertaken by the Root mission ? Mr.. Robins. I should say that would be so. Mr. HtJMEs. It took that form. Senator Stehlixg. Do you not think, with that view of that, that Tve are entitled to know the name of the paper that published those cartoons ? Mr. Robins. No, sir. It will be within the purview of the com- mittee to get all the facts. I do not know why Mr. Humes wants me to make a statement. I have at all points of this situation sought to avoid personalities. I have been in the position of trying to avoid condemning anybody. I have tried to tell the truth. Naturally, in such an investigation as this blame does fall somewhere or other. The moment the committee wants me to bring in individuals and per- sonalities, where I have spoken of things as they exist in Russia, we are extremely apt to do something else than to inquire into the mat- ters that we are engaged on. , Senator Overman. That is the reason I ruled it out. I do not think it ought to be put in if the witness objects. Mr. HtTMES. That is all. Senator Sterling. Col. Robins, let me ask you this question. It is somewhat hypothetical, I grant, but I would like to ask it and have your view. If resistance to the Czecho-Slovaks was inspired by Ger- many; if released German prisoners participated therein; if Bolshe- vist troops were officered by Germans; if following the collapse of the Russian Army at the front, Germany began the exploitation of Eussia and had the power to draw on Russian resources for sup- plies for her army with which she was fighting the allies, do you think allied armed intervention would have been justifiable? Mr. Robins. During war, if the suppositions that have been stated are facts, then armed intervention as a war measure would unques- tionably have been justified. Senator Sterling. Let me just quote again from our favorite author, Lord Milner. Mr. Robins. We can not get agreement there. Senator Sterling. He says [reading] : And this interventidii was successful. The riot was st(jpped. The Czecho- slovaks were saved from destruction. The I'esources of Siberia and south- eastern Russia were denied to the enemy. The northern ports of European Russia were prevented from becoming bases for German submarines from which our North Sea barrage could have been turned. These were important achievements and contributed materially to the defeat of Germany. I say nothing of the fact that a vast portion of the earth's surface and millions of people friendly to the allies have been spared the unspeakable horrors of Bolshevik rule. Do you not agree with Lord Milner in that statement ? Mr. Robins. No, sir. I am sorry. I would like for the moment to rely on my favorite newspaper, the Manchester Guardian. 892 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. Senator Sterling. Do you p^ace the Manchester Guardian over and above everything else as authority? Mr. EoBiNS. No; not over and above everything; but in that situa- tion I prefer to take its judgment. I think that it is better than Lord Milner. Senator Sterling. Lord Milner, by reason of his position, was in reasonably close touch with the situation. Mr. EoBiNS. Is it not a rather interesting thing that after we intervened and after a certain policy had been established of dealing with the Bolsheviki, the premier of Britain came out and asked for a change of attitude toward the Bolshevik govermnent, and Lord Northcliffe came out and said that that request was right, and that it would be a good thing to send me back there ? He did that because he thought I was pro-German and pro-Bolshevik? We can not think that. There has been a confusion in the play in England, a confusion in the play in France and with us, in this Russian story. Senator Sterling. Then you do not agree with the official state- ment as to the attitude of the French Republic in regard to inter- vention in Russia? Mr. Robins. No, sir. Senator Sterling. Let me call your attention to that official at- titude. [Reading :] The French Government is of the opinion that Bolshevism is a permanent danger to peace and civilization, and that the government of the Soviets is actually at war with the allies. It is therefore impossible to renew diplomatic relations with that government, even taking it as a government de facto. The French Government feels justified in its attitude, because in fighting against Bolshevism, France is not in the least interfering with the home politics of a foreign country but merely endeavoring to eradicate a system which is based on nothing but disorder and crime. I am not going to read all of the statement, but I want to call your attention to one further paragraph. [Reading :] Bolshevist troops are already invading the countries which all the allies are desirous of bringing into existence, such as Poland, and thus to prevent the organization of nations that have long been kept under the yoke of Germany, which is determined to accept the help of Bolshevism to prevent their emancipa- tion. Mr. Robins. Now, Senator, over against that I would put the state- ment of the French patriot, Capt. Sadaul, who has suffered in the war, Avho loves his country, in my judgment, and Avas selected by the French ambassador and the general of the French military mission to be a sort of liaison officer with the Bolsheviki. Capt. Sadaul was in Russia at the time I was there and left Russia sometime after I left Russia, with the cooperation of his government. Capt. Sadaul has made his statement in France, and he has agreed with the posi- tion that I hold, absolutely. He is opposed to the program of the Bolsheviki, but believed that the actual facts of the situation justified the efforts that were made for cooperation with the soviet power, the program that was worked out in Russia between us. Senator Sterling. I think you will fall within the class mentioned in the next paragraph. Mr. Robins. I will do my best not to do so. Let us see. Senator Sterling. I think you have already by your statements done so. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 893 Mr. EoBiNS. Let us see. Senator Steeling. I think you will agree with this statement. [Eeading :] Bolshevism can not be reasonably called a system of government, but the tyranny of a very small clique over the bulk of the nation. You are not in that class. Mr. EoBiNS. Thank you, sir. Senator Steelin:g (reading) : Fighting Bolshevism means, first and foremost, protecting Russia against a regime which all those who have escaped from Russia are unanimous in con- demning. Mr. EoBiNS. I will be one person Senator Sterling. I heard you condemn- Mr. Robins. You mean the system ? Absolutely, but I do not agree to the fact, Senator, that it is a small group at the top with tyranny running the show. Senator Steeling (reading) : It also means protecting civilization in Europe, as the activity of Bolshevist propagandists is a menace, not only to the immediate neighbors of Russia, but also to the allied and neutral countries, one of the conditions of the very exist- ence of Bolshevism being its expansion abroad. I think you brought out that idea yourself. Mr. EoBiNS. Yes, and yqu will probably find in the days to come that I am bitterly opposed by my socialist friends in America and Bolshevik agitators as a most poisonous and dangerous man to the truth of Bolshevism. I know the beast. I know it, and I know my country and have confidence enough in its institutions to be able to tell the truth about it. And, Senator, I believe that when we know the beast, with the united intelligence of the free men and women of America, I have faith enough in our institutions to believe that we will throw that foreign culture, born out of a foreign despotism, back out of our land, not by treating it with the method of tyranny, not by a witch hunt, nor by hysteria, but by strong, intelligent action, the intelligent action of Senators of the United States making a re- port that gets before the people the truth of the situation and mobo- lizes the consciences and the intelligence of the men and women of our land. Senator Overman. What do you mean by " witch hunt "? Mr. Robins. I mean this, Senator. You are familiar with the old witch-hunt attitude, that when people get frightened at things and see bogies, then they get out witch proclamations, and mob action and all kinds of hysteria takes place. Senator Overman. This committee has been called a witch hunt. Mr. Robins. I wish to make no possible sort of criticism of the committee. I wish to say that I have never been treated more fairly than I have been here. Senators, may I make clear to you what I mean? I think I men- tioned the' difference between the wrong view and the right. You may remember when the President of the United States, President McKinley, was assassinated by an anarchist in Buffalo. There was a little group of anarchists in my town of Chicago. They did not happen to be terrorist anarchists at all. They were philosophical anarchists. They were even vegetarians — would not kill even a fly. 894 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. They believed that the wonderful truth of their program would spread over the world. They had a little paper called Free Society. I did not believe in the things it stood for, but I believed in the freedom by which all kinds of dark and noisome things and gases if carried out into the open would be better dealt with and purified. I used to talk with them. We had a free floor meeting in tlie old Chicago commons, where they came to talk. Then came the killing of the President, and the whole country was roused against that ter- rible crime. The police decided upon an investigation of this group of anarchists. The police were then under investigation themselves, and they hoped to turn attention from themselves by working up an anarchist scare. So they sent down and arrested this old anarchist peasant, his wife, a boy and girl, and put them in different police stations. They put each one through the third degree, sweating them and telling one that the other had confessed. I went down to Iry to see them, but was not permitted. I went to see the mayor, and I said, " The policy you are following is wrong. You have been mayor for four years. If this is a real terrorist group, your administration will be under condemnation for permitting it to exist and grow until they conspire and assassinate our President. Instead of being interested in this curious M'itch hunt that is going on, you ought to be more interested in trying to prove that the city of Chicago is free from any complicity with the assassination of the President." He saw the point, and the mayor gave me the right to go doAvn and see these people, and we had a writ of habeas corpus taken out. There was no evidence found against them and they were all discharged. But a nine-days' terror crept over the city. I was assaulted. Why? Be- cause I had something to do with helping some poor Eussian folks, whose ideas were different from mine, but who were entitled to be treated with justice in my own free land, and I suggest that that is the way to deal with this situation rather than the way that the police department in Chicago started to deal with the anarchists there. Senator Steeling. Col. Eobins, if as you say, the Bolshevist form of government, requiring, as it does, the rule of a class — the pro- letariat — is founded on wrong principles — that is what I understand. Mr. Robins. Absolutely. Senator Sterling. It follows, does it not, that such form of govern- ment can not very long endure ? Mr. EoBiNS. I should believe that that was true, and if they follow the stark metallic formulas that are false, in my judgment, they will reveal their failure and be finally overwhelmed, unless in the opera- tion of the government they are moved from their formulas to a more reasonable program. Senator Steeling. As to how long it may endure, that depends somewhat on the intelligence or capacity of the people, does it not, and on the means resorted to to compel submission to the govern- ment? Mr. Robins. Yes. Senator Steeling. Since such a government must cease to exist, would you not expect that its collapse would be attended with in- creased violence and bloodshed ? Mr. Robins. Of course ; that is, assuming — if you make the assump- tion of the premise, yes. Of course, I do not make that assumption. BOLSHBATIK PKOPAGANDA. 895 Senator Steeling. Well, I understood you to say that as to how long it will endure, that depends upon the intelligence and capacity of the people and upon the means adopted to enforce submission? Mr. Robins. Yes ; but here was the thought. Senator, that I think it may easily be modified considerably. Then your conclusion is not sound. Senator Sterling. But if this is so, and if armed intervention would prevent the conditions I have named, would not such inter- vention be justifiable in the interests of humanity and civilization? Mr. EoBiNS. Yes ; accepting your premise, the conclusion is sound. Senator Steeling. Take the particular case of Germany, the once common enemy, beaten in the field, but still, as we all must admit, I think, very resourceful if not unscrupulous. She is next door to Russia. Suppose Russia to be without orderly government, her in- dustries paralyzed, and millions of her people in direct want, and general demoralization throughout the country. Would not Russia under such condition be an easy victim for German domination and exploitation ? Mr. Robins. On the assumption that you make, yes. Senator Steeling. Would such facts and conditions justify inter- vention ? Mr. Robins. I think so. Senator Steeling. Would not intervention under such circum- stances be for the present and future well-being of Russia, and would it not be in the interest of the permanent peace of the world ? Mr. Robins. Assuming all the previous statements as facts, the conclusion, it seems to me, is sound. Of course, it is agreed that I do not agree with the assumption of the facts. Senator Overman. Are there any other questions ? Mr. Robins. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, may I make this statement? I have, of course, a large number of docu- ments that are in nature semi-confidential, growing out of my rela- tionship. I have not produced .them because the evidence in this committee did not seem to warrant it, and I wish to protect at every point where I can protect from needless attack of one sort and an- other, many individuals. But I ask the privilege of the committee that if, as the testimony progresses, there be any substantial chal- lenge of the statements that I have made, in substance, by any per- sons entitled to consideration — I mean special consideration, I am not frightened by a good deal of clamor, but any official person — I may ask the privilege of returning to the committee and presenting a further line of documentary statements. Senator Oveeman. We want to do you justice; and if any attack is made on you, you will have the right to respond. Mr. Robins. Thank you, Senatpr; and may I express to you my appreciation for the consideration that the committee has shown me during what must have been a very tiresome hearing. Senator Overman. Colonel, where, if any more testimony is to be presented by you, could we find you ? Mr. Robins.' Always at 43 Fifth Avenue. That address will always reach me, and I will come as expeditiously as I can. Senator Overman. If you see anything that you want to reply to, will you inform me if you want to be heard ? 896 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. RoBixs. I will, Senator Overman. I thank you. (Thereupon, at 12.50 o'clock p. m., the subcommittee took a recess until 2.30 p.m.) AFTER RECESS. At 2.30 o'clock p. m. the subcommittee met, pursuant to the taking of the recess. TESTIMONY OF MR. GREGOR A. MARTITJSZINE. (The witness was sworn by the chairman and testified through an interpreter, Prof. Alexander Petrunkevitch.) Mr. Htjmes. Where do you live ? Mr. Maetiuszine. At present I am domiciled in Moscow. Mr. Humes. What is your business ? Mr. Martiuszine. I am the representative of the central imion of the flax growers and other cooperative organizations of Russia. Mr. Humes. "When did you leave Russia? Mr. Martiuszine. I wish to add also that I was the vice president of the All-Russian Soviet of the peasant deputies, which was dis- persed by the Bolsheviki. Mr. Hu3iES. At what place? Mr. Martiuszine. Petrograd. The pi'esident was Avksentiefi, who was latety in this country. Senator OvermajST. Was that during the Kerensky regime that you were vice president of this soviet? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes. I was elected as a deputy by the peasants of the government of Kasan to the constituent assembly. I am the son of a peasant, and my grandfather was a Russian peasant serf. I spent the first 21 years of my life in a village in Russia. Under the Czar I was twice arrested, and banished for five years. After the first banishment had ended, in 1911, 1 took part in the cooperative movement in Russia. At present I am a member of the executive board of the Russian Flax Growing Association and also of various other cooperative associations in Russia. Senator Overman. When did you leave Russia ? Mr. Martiuszine. The 2d of November, 1918. I took part in the overthrow of the Bolsheviki government in Yaroslav and in Arch- angel. At this moment I am the special representative of the north- ern government of Russia, sent to this country for economic purposes, and also an official representative of the Association of Russian Cooperatives. I desire to make it plain to this committee that I intend to speak not as a political member of some party, but as a peasant. Neither do I intend to draw any conclusions from any matter of discussion or argument, but I desire to present the facts and to leave to you the pleasure of drawing your own conclusions. Senator Nelson. May I ask the question right there. As I under- stand it. you belong to the government of northern Russia? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes. Senator Nelson. Is that a Bolshevik government or not ? Mr. Martiuszine. The northern government was called to life after the overthrow of the Bolsheviki on the 2d of August. Its head is Tchaikowski, and that government has been recognized by BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 897 the Allies and it is not a Bolshevik government. I would like, first of all, to touch upon the question of cooperation in Eussia as an espe- cially interesting chapter in the history of Russian peasantry and as having a special bearing upon the economic situation in Russia. If it is the pleasure of the committee, I shall read to you a statement which I have dravpn up, adding such additional remarks as I desire as I proceed. Senator Overman. Very well ; proceed. Mr. MARTiuszi>fE. There are nearly 45 cooperative societies in Rus- sia, representing almost 20,000,000 members, mostly of the rural population. Cooperation in Russia is therefore overwhelmingly rural, 85 per cent belonging to the peasant class. I might add that I do not think it necessary to explain what Russian cooperation means, becaiise it is practically the same as that in this country where there are cooperative societies, as in California and in Minnesota. Senator Nelson. I just want to ask one question. These coopera- tive societies relate both to the buying and the selling of products, do they not? Mr. Maetitjszine. Yes ; both to buying and selling. Senator Nelson. They are cooperfitive societies for the sale of the products of the peasants? Mr. Maetittszine. Yes. Senator Nelson. Cooperative societies for the purchase of supplies for them ? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes ; and also for the furnishing of credit. In some localities the cooperative movement reached such dimensions that from 75 to 80 per cent of the total number of peasant households were members of such societies. The greatest cooperative societies are as follows : The Moscow Peoples Bank, the Central Union of Con- sumers' Societies, and the AU-Russian Society of Flax Growers, of which I am the representative here. In the autumn 1918, this society sent to the allied countries flax worth eleven and a half million dol- lar:, the consignment having been delivered to Archangel under great difficulties. This fact shows the feeling of the cooperative as- sociations to the Allies, with whom they were always friendly, and to whom they were able to send the goods the moment the way was established through Archangel. I do not know whether the Allies ever received any goods whatsoever from the Bolsheviki. Senator Nelson. Did they succeed in shipping anything up to the Murman coast on the new railroad ? Mr. Maetiuszine. At what time? Senator Nelson. Lately ; within the last year. Mr. Maetiuszine. The cooperative association was able to ship the goods only through Archangel, because the goods were brought there to Archangel and not to Murmansk, and there are still some goods there ready for shipment to the Allies. Senator Steeling. How long have these cooperative societies been in existence ? Mr. Maetiuszine; The cooperative societies in Russia were first founded in 1870, but were persecuted under the Czar's government. The cooperative organizations of Russia are purely economic insti- tutions, which do not pursue any political ends. Being democratic institutions the cooperative societies were persecuted under the Czar's 85723—19 57 898 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. government, and their activity was greatly impeded. After the over- throw of autocracy under the provisonal government, the cooperative movement got a chance to develop freely. The AU-Eussian Con- gress of Cooperatives which took place in April, 1917, sent its most distinguished representatives, Selheim, Korobov, and Kulyshny, to lend economic assistance to the government of Kerensky, as as- sistant secretaries of the secretary of food supply. During the entire existence of the provisional government, the cooperative association lent it its full support. In all congresses their representatives ex- pressed themselves in favor of the constitutent assembly. The last assembly of the cooperative associations took place in May, 1918, and during that meeting the association adopted a resolution in favor of the constituent assembly. Previously to the convocation of the assembly they supported the Soviets of peasant deputies, which had as their object the creation of the rule of the people in JEiussia, that is, the election of a constituent assembly of zemstvos and municipal institutions upon the basis of universal suffrage and direct secret and equal ballots. To this end they appropriated about 1,000,000 rubles. The local Soviets of peasant deputies also supported the cooperative movement. The cooperatives supported them because the}' considered the so\'iets only temxDorary institutions, pending the election to the constituent assembly. I desire to emphasize that the cooperative societies of Russia, as well as the Central Association of Cooperatives, are not political institutions, that they exist entirely for economic purposes, and that for this reason they supported the gov- ernment of Kerensky and the Soviets at that time, and the coopera- tive societies maintained at that time that the convocation of the constituent assembly was imperative for the welfare of the Eussian people. Senator Nelson. This carries you down to the Kerensky govern- ment. I want to know what has been the experience of the coopera- tive societies under the Bolsheviki govenxment of Lenine and Trotzky, which came into power in November, 1917. The provisional govern- ment got into power, if I recollect aright, in March, 1917? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes. Senator Nelson. And in November what we call the Bolshevik government came into power under Lenine and Trotzky. You car- ried this under the Kerensky government. I want to know what the experience of the cooperatives has been under the Bolshevik govern- ment. Mr. Martiuszine. I will touch upon that subject now. There seems to be an opinion that the Soviets are an organization charac- teristic of Russia; but in the same manner some people previously to this time thought that autocracy was also a characteristic of the people in Russia. The cooperatives do not uphold that opinion. No 'one of the Bolshevik leaders had any part in the cooperative move- ment of Russia. They consider all peasants bourgeoisie except the peasant farm hands. That is the theory of Marx. Under the provi- sional government they took a stand in opposition to the conference of the cooperative associations. After accession to power Lenine decided immediately to nationalize all cooperative societies, just as all bourgeois enterprises were nationalized at that time. The fear that all peasants will rise against the Bolsheviki prevented the enact- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 899 ment of that measure. For the same reason — of fear — the national- ization has not been accomplished, even to this time. Senator Nelson. As I understand it, they planned to nationalize the cooperative societies, but have not dared to carry it out ? Mr. Maetitjszine. That is correct. Senator Nelson. For fear of antagonizing the peasants? Mr. Maetitjszine. Yes. Senator Nelson. That is the drift of your statement? Mr. Maetiuszine. Therefore the counselors of Lenine decided to- fight cooperation gradually. This is the reason why Lenine's plan has not yet been accomplished. Cooperation is encountering great difficulties. Executive officers of its central organizations have been arrested, and some of them shot. Thus, in June, 1918, Krylov, execu- tive officer of the People's Bank, was arrested in Moscow, and in October, 1918, Korobov and Berkenheim, of the Central Association. of Consumers Societies, were also arrested in the same city. Some members were forced to emigrate. In Perm, in May, 1918, Neusy- chin, an executive officer of the cooperative union, was traitorously shot and his assassin was not apprehended. The violence done to provincial members of the association was beyond words. In Vo- logda, in August, 1918, Delarov and Kostian, two respected mem- bers, were arrested. December 6, 1918, the People's Bank was nationalized, regardless of the protests of its members, 1,500 of whom arrived from all cities to save their pet institution and to defend their rights. I beg to call attention to this fact that as the Czar's regime was unable to destroy cooperation in Russia, so the Bolshevik regime will also be unable to do it. Senator Steeling. Where was the People's Bank ? Mr. Maetitjszine. In Moscow. Senator Nelson. Was the People's Bank the agency of the co- operative societies? Was it through that bank that they operated? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes ; that was the bank of the cooperative socie- ties quite exclusively, and that is the reason why it had not been, nationalized during a whole year. Senator Nelson. They attempted to nationalize it, did they not? Mr. Maetiuszine. They made that attempt, but they were afraid that the peasants would not forgive such an act of nationalization of their bank. Many were arrested on the mere suspicion that they were en- gaged in counter-revolutionary activities. I myself was witness of such cases in May and June in the government of Yaroslav. The property of the cooperative societies is often requisitioned or even plundered. Thus, in Moscow the office of the Central Associa- tion of Consumers' Societies was twice broken into. The second time, about 7 o'clock p. m. in August, 1918, a band of armed men Entered the office, forced the safe, took the money — about 5,000,000 rubles,, and disappeared. No one was apprehended. Senator Nelson. Were these armed men what they commonly call the Red Guard? Mr. Maetitjszine. They were armed men who came in automobileSy but no one knows who they were ; but the allowance to use automo- biles is given only to the Red Guards and to the Bolsheviki. 900 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Sterling. Was it during the daytime that this robbery occurred ? Mr. Maetiuszine. At 7 o'clock p. m. Senator iSteeling. Was it yet daylight? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes, it was still daylight; but the office was closed. Such cases of burglary happen so often within govern- mental institutions themselves under the Bolshevist regime that they cause no surprise any more. In April, 1918. I heard public state- ments of common people concerning the burglary of several hundred thousand rubles from the treasury of the Soviet of Yaroslav. The rea- soning of the citizens was simple. Either the members of the coviuts themselves were the thieves, or they staged the whole affair to cover up embezzlement. Senator* Nelson. Which way is Yaroslav from Moscow — in what direction ? Mr. Maetiuszine. Southeast from INIoscow. Senator Nelson. Is it on the Don River? Mr. Maetiuszine. On the Volga. It is natural that under these circumstances the cooperative move- ment is anti-Bolshevist. The main reason for this lies in the fact that Bolshevism tries to kill cooperation. If the latter becomes nationalized in accordance Tvith Lenine's scheme, then its influence as a democratic and free organization in the service of the laboring population will be nulli- fied. I wish to add that, in my opinion, the same would result in this country if the Government should decide to nationalize coopera- tion in America. The second reason lies in the disorganization of all economic life. In consequence of this the cooperatives are unable to act independ- ently. Owing to the nationalization of production the cooperatives can not get the necessary goods. Owing to the nationalization of ex- ports the cooperatives are prevented from exporting their products. Owing to the civil war all over Russia and to the disorganization of transportation the cooperatives are unable to furnish their members even with a minimum of goods. In order to renew the exchange of goods with the allies, to renew trade, the nationalization of the co- operative societies in Russia Avould have to be first abolished. It was impossible to maintain trade with the allies because the goods on arrival in Archangel at that time were being requisitioned by the Bolsheviki. Senator Nelson. That was before the allies got possession of Arch- angel? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes. Equally the cooperatives situated in the regions under Bolshevist rule can not import goods, because all freight is requisitioned by the Soviet government. The economic disorganization is so evident that it is scarcely necessary to dwell longer upon it. I am going merely to give examples wliich I personally have witnessed. I have dwelt on the cooperative movement in Russia to show what it meant for Russia, and now I am going to show to you the economic dis- organization which resulted from the Bolshevist rule over Russia. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 901 Senator Nelson. Before you proceed there is one question that occurs to me. Are these cooperative societies mere buying and sell- ing organizations ; that is, on the one hand selling and on the other hand buying, or are they producing organizations? For instance, do they manufacture the goods they sell? Are they producers in. any sense or not? Mr. Maetiuszine. The majority of the flour mills in Russia belong' to the cooperation, but the production of goods is mostly in the hands of the consumers' league of Russia. In the case of flax the cooper- atives buy up and sell it as it comes into their hands. Senator Nelson. As I understand you then, aside from the milling" industry these cooperative societies are mainly what you would call! buying and selling organizations? They buy goods and sell goods? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes; that is so. In the government of Arch- angel, after the coJlapse of the Bolshevist power, the total quantity of dark bread with substitutes amounted only to a quarter of a pound per head per day for the duration of two weeks. If flour had not been shipped by the allies the population of more distant regions of the northern district would have been condemned to death through starvation. I wish to express my sincere thanks to the allies wha have supplied the northern Russian population with bread and saved them from death by starvation. I refuse to believe all those statements which are to the effect that the people in Russia starved because of the attitude of the allies. Senator Nelson. What is the distance from Vologda on the Si- berian Railway to Archangel ? Mr. Maetiuszine. Approximately 1,000 versts. ' Senator Nelson. That is about how many miles ? Mr. Maetiuszine. About 750 miles. Senator Nelson. On the Siberian Railroad? Mr. Maetiuszine. No; that is the railroad between Moscow and "Archangel. Senator Nelson. It is from that railroad station to Vologda? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes. Senator Nelson. It is 1,000 versts? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes. , Senator Nelson. And that is how many miles? Mr. Maetiuszine. About 750 miles. Senator Nelson. That country there in northern Russia north of the Siberian Railway up to Archangel is not an agricultural country in the sense that southern Russia is. It is mainly a_ country inhabited by lumbermen and fishermen, is it not, and there is not much farm- ing in that section of country, is there ? Mr. Maetiuszine. Mostly lumbering and fishing, and they always- need grain. Senator Nelson. And practically now the only food they get there- is what the allies furnish ? Mr. Maetiuszine. They have received some food besides from Siberia and are receiving it regularly at present, by way of the sea.. Meanwhile in Siberia enormous quantities of grain were stored,, left over from the last year's harvest, because of the impossibility of transporting it by rail. 902 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. The assertion of some people that the grain could not reach the north because of an allied blockade is not founded in truth. Besides, during the whole time of the Bolshevist regime the peas- ants refused to furnisli the grain, and lack of bread was felt in Si- beria itself in such cities as Omsk and Novo Nikolaevsk in June, 1918. At the time of my departure from Moscow, toward the end of June, a pud, or 36 pounds of flour, cost 300 rubles. In August it rose to 400 rubles, and one Avas able to get it only through the so-called bagmen ; that is, men who at the risk of being shot smuggled through from one to one and a half poods of flour. Senator Nelson. State for the record how much a ruble amounts to in our money. Mr. Martitjszine. In normal times a ruble costs 51 cents. Senator Nelson. In our money ^ Mr. Maetiuszine. In normal times. These bagmen whom I speak of fill the trains. ,They travel hundreds of miles for the treasure which the black bread with substitutes represents in the soviet re- public. I saw many old men and women in the villages of the gov- ernment of Yaroslav and Kostroma returning home empty handed, because the Bed Guard had robbed them on their way or because they were forced by the civil war to leave the purchased flour behind. I have seen 10 and 12 year old children of intellectuals who traveled 600 versts (400 miles) for half a bushel of potatoes and who were happy if they were able to bring the potatoes home. This was in June, 1918. I consider the reports true which are brought bj' men who left Moscow and Petrograd in November and December, 1918, to the elfect that death from starvation is already of common occurrence in soviet Russia. Thus the distinguished professor Lappo-Danilewski .and the great painter Eepin have succumbed to starvation. But if we speak of a shortage in bread, other articles of food can Tiot be purchased for any price. Thus, the rural population of the government of Yaroslav used molasses instead of sugar in June of last 3'ear to the amount of only one-quarter of a pound per person per month, and that very irregularly. In the central government the price for milk and butter was exorbitant and their quantity exceed- ingly small. The nationalization of industry has paralyzed the majority of factories and plants. Thus, the prosperous flax industry of Russia had to cut its business in half in June, 1918. In the autumn of 1918 in Ivanov-Vosnesensk, which is called the Russian Manchester, the Soviet government, according to official data, has ordered 54 factories to be closed for lack of raw materials, while in the western district of Moscow only 3 per cent of factories were in operation. I wish to point out that I am particularly well acquainted with the flax in- dustry in Russia, and that the peasants are not going to sow any flax this j'ear because there is no buyer left any more for it. Yet the Russian flax industry is about live times as great as that of this country. The most important branches of industry have to reduce their operations to a minimum or to close temporarily because of complete chaos which resulted from the control of industries by workmen, from lack of raw materials, lack of credit, and lack of organization in BOLSHEATtK PROPAGANDA. 903 the distribution of raw material. Here is one example of what this control of industries by workmen means. In Yaroslav the coopera- tive association purchased a large plant of agricultural machines which was supposed to be able to turn out 300,000 plows annually. The director appointed to run this plant was arrested on suspicion of counterrevolutionary activity. Productivity fell to such an extent • that in March, 1918, the plant had to close. The workmen refused to work, and the managers were helpless. But to close the plant they had to obtain the permission of the workers themselves. After many interviews with Lenine and a bribe to the Bolshevik commissioner, the permission to close the plant was granted on condition of an advance payment of two months' wages to all workers. But at the time of this settlement the workers threatened to return in two months and to demand their reinstallation in the plant. This is only one of the examples of what the cooperative associa- tions had to imdergo because the Bolsheviki attempted, but did not dare quite to destroy them. Senator Nelson. This was a case where the cooperative association had taken over this factory and were manufacturing plows, was it? Mr. Maetiuszinb. Yes; that was the case. They paid 1,100,000 rubles for the Dlant. Senator Nelson. What was the capacity of it in normal times? How many plows could they turn out a year? Mr. Maetitjszine. The factory was really for the building of small machines, and when it was bought it was to be rebuilt so as to be able to produce 300,000 plows a year. Trade is in a still worse condition. Respected firms were forced to suspend their business. Extraordinary speculation developed in consequence. Transportation has reached the limit of disorganiza- tion. Shipping of freight on the Volga, Oka, and other rivers had practically gone out of existence in 1918. Railway transportation showed a complete collapse. The Bolsheviki have usurped the power against the will of the majority represented in the AU-Russian Soviet of Workers, Soldiers, and Peasant Deputies. Soviets and local organs of self-government not subservient to the Bolsheviks were sugj)ended. I wish now to speak of the relation between the Bolsheviki and the Russian democracy. I wish to show whether it is true that the Bol- sheviki have a following of 93 per cent of the Russian population. The majority in the All-Russian Congress of Peasant Deputies ex- pressed themselves in favor of turning, over all power to the Con- stituent Assembly at the end of December, 1918. Their executive committee was then dismissed by a decree of the people's commis- sioners after the disbursal of the Constituent Assembly. In the same manner, whenever local Soviets had an anti-Bolshevist majority, they were dismissed, as in the case of Tambor, Nishni-Novgorod, Zlatouts, . and other cities. All this shows that the soviet regime is antidemo- cratic. I myself was present at the meeting at which the majority of those present in that congress expressed themselves in favor of the convocation of a constituent assembly. After that these things Senator Nelson. Have the Bolsheviki ever called together a really constituent assembly in Russia— a representative body of the whole country ? 904 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Maetitjszine. The Bolsheviki called a Constituent Assembly on the 5th of January. When they saw that the Bolsheviki them- selves had only a quarter of the total vote in that assembly they then dispersed it. Senator Nelson. They dispersed it ? Mr. Maktiuszine. The council of the commissaries, without any consent or without even asking the permission of the All-Eussian Soviet, made that decree closing the Constituent Assembly. Senator Nelson. And that was the end of it? Mr. Maetiuszine. That Avas the end of it. Senator Nelson. They have ne^er had any since, have they? Mr. Maetiuszine. No ; none. That was the last. Senator Nelson. And the last one they had was closed by this com- missary organization? Mr. Maetiuszine. By the council of the people's commissary. Senator Nelson. At Petrograd ? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes. After having closed the Constituent As- sembly they reported the action taken to the AU-Russian Soviet, ask- ing that body to confirm their action. Previous to that they dis- persed all the Soviets of the peasants Avhere the majority was in favor of the Constituent Assembly. Senator Nelson. They have closed them all ? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes. Some statements have been made that the Bolshevik government is subject to the control of a decision of the Soviets, but these examples show that the opposite is the case, and that after the action of the government that they want, they ask the consent of the soviet. All this shows that the soviet regime is antidemocratic. The soviet government, after October, 1918, promised the imme- diate convocation of the constituent assembly. The provisional gov- ernment was particularly accused of being slow in doing it. But since the Bolsheviki receives only one-quarter of the votes in the elections to the constituent assembly the latter was declared pro- rogued by decree of the people's commissioners, January 5, 1918. This order was not only illegal in its essence, but absolutely un- democratic and antidemocratic. I ask the members of this com- mittee to judge for themselves whether under these circumstances the Bolshevik government may be considered to be a democratic government. The election to the constituent assembly took place in accordance with just laws, which in my» opinion are perhaps the best laws in the world, and these elections took place at the time when the Bolsheviki had been already in power. Of the 36,000,000 votes cast in these elections 20,000,000 belong to peasants and social revolution- ists, while only 9,000,000 supported the Bolsheviki. Senator Nelson. The revolutionary socialists? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes. I emphasize the fact that in my opinion no election which took place after the dispersal of the constituent assembly can as clearly show the real proportion of strength of the political parties and the sentiment in Russia. I will only believe that the Bolsheviki have the majority of the Russian people behind them if new elections take place on the basis of the same laws under which the elections to the first constituent assembly took place. With BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 905 the exception of two or three cities, in the rest of Russia before the Bolshevik overthrow of the Kerensky government, all local and municipal elections showed that the Bolsheviki were in the minority. Senator Overman. Is it possible to hold a fair election now under the Bolshevik government? Mr. Maetitjszine. Such elections would not be possible, because the Bolsheviki arrest and shoot a number of men who take part in such elections, even to local committees or in municipal elections. Senator Nelson. They shoot those who are opposed to them? Mr. Maetittszine. Yes. In the absence of any guaranty of free elections no fair elections can take place in Russia. Having destroyed the very principle of the elective right, the soviet government announced the distatorship of the proletariat. As a matter of fact, in Russia, where the proletariat forms a small fraction of the entire population, an insignificant minority enjoys the right of voting. In elections to the Soviets in cities, workers in factories and plants are alone casting their votes, and the election is indirect and often open. Measures of terror are being used against elements opposed to Bolshevism. Thus in May, 1918, during the elections in Moscow, orators op- posed to Bolshevism were arrested at meetings, threatened with vio- lence, and violence was committed on the voters at the elections. Elections in villages often took place without any lists, a small frac- tion of the last educated portion of the population taking part in them. In consequence the peasants are not able to exert any influ- ence over the soviet government. Already in the spring of 1918 con- tinual civil war raged in the provinces, often combined with mass execution. Here are some facts: In the city of Soligalich, of the government of Rostrona, the soviet was overthrown in February, 1918. A punitive expedition was sent and some ten men of the local intellectuals were shot. In the city of Biely, of the government of Smolensk, the soviet was also overthrown. Near Moscow in a small city members of the local soviet were burned in the house by the in- furiated mob. In Sychenky, in the government of Smolensk, after the murder of respectable citizens by the Red Army, the soviet fled. In May, 1918, the civil war assumed an elemental character. All lands along the Volga, in Siberia and North Russia, were in the throes of the civil war. In the west and the Caucasus, Germans were in control, the Germans with whom Bolshevists made the dishonor- able peace of Brest-Litovsk. Statements have been made to the effect that elections to the Soviets in Russia supposedly are better and fairer than elections in any other country, but according to my judgment, and I want to em- phasize this, from the point of view of a Russian peasant, if elections in Russia were conducted in the same way that they are in this coun- try, I would consider Russia a happy country. All the guarantees of freedom have been abrogated in Bolshevist Russia. All non-Bolshevist papers have been suppressed without trial or investigation. This refers to the last part of June, 1918, when the terror of the Bolshevists was particulraly on the increase. Only such meetings and unions are permitted as are acceptable to the Bolsheviki. Other meetings are forbidden and the participants arrested. Thus in the beginning of January, 1918, in Moscow, mem- 906 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. bers of the congress of the social revolutionary party were arrested Kepresentatives of the factory and plant conference of the Moscow and Petrograd region were also arrested, the Soviet of Soldier's and Peasants' Deputies of Murmansk Senator Nelson. That is on the Kola Peninsula ? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes. Having decided that it would once more like to join the allies, a decree of Bolsheviki and an order was pro- mulgated to shoot the president of that soviet. Endless cases could be adduced as evidence. Of men known to me personally the following were shot in July on suspicion of coun- ter revolution: Mr. Turba, Dr. Suchetia, member of the Archangel board of aldermen ; Pagilove, member of the central committee of the party of the social revolutionists ; the worker Peterkin, and others. There are no definite data for the number of victims shot by the Bolshevik authorities. Such data are not being published. Yet here are examples: According to official communication of the Petrograd extraordinary commission under date of October -28, 6,220 men were arrested, 800 of whom were shot. Senator Nelson. That is last October? Mr. Martiuszine. Last October. After the assassination of Com- missar Uritzky. in Petrograd, 1,500 men were arrested, 512 of whom were shot, including 10 social revolutionists. In Moscow were ar- rested about 800 men, but the number of those shot is not known. This is the deposition made bv the member of the court assembly, Mr. E. A. Trupp. In Yaroslav, in July, after the suppression of the rebellion, more than 300 men were shot. This is my own information. In Boris- oglyebsk nine men were shot for the organization of an opposition to the soviet. This was reported on the 16th of September in the northern commune. In Astrakhan 18 men were shot for an attempt at rebellion. Senator Nelson. Astrakhan is on the Volga River? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes. In Perm 50 men were shot, members of the bourgeoisie and officers, suspected in connection Avith the assassi- nation of Uritsky in Petrograd. According to witness&s, prisoners are subjected to torture, as was the case with Dora Kaplan. As she was, in consequence of this tor- ture, incapable of appearing before the high tribunal, she was shot in the extraordinary commission. Senator Overman. Who was she? Mr. Martiuszine. She was the girl who tried to assassinate Lenine. The torture was committed in the following way: They were not allowing her to go to sleep. She was kept awake. I would be able to produce more evidence from facts showing the terror of the Bol- sheviki, but I think that those already mentioned are sufficient to prove my contention that the Bolsheviki rule by terror. The fact that the Bolshevist government has existed now for more than a year causes some to consider it as indicative of its having the support of the majority. To this we may answer that aristocracy in Russia existed more than 300 years, while for a long time past it found support only in a very small following of nobility and bour- geoisie. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 907 According to my opinion the following are the reasons for the Bol- sheviki having held out : •First, because they use a system of terror on a greater scale even than did the Czar's government. Secondly, they lead a small portion of the population by false promises of earthly bliss. As an example, I should like to speak of how the Bolsheviki de- ceived the peasants with promises of land. The moment the Bolshe- viki gained power they passed a law, promulgated a law, which they took directly from the decision of the All-Russian Soviet of the Peasants' Deputies. This was done by the Soviet of Peasants for the purpose of submitting it to the constituent assembly when the as- sembly would meet. Members of the Soviet of Peasants' Deputies hoped to submit that to the assembly, so that it would be promul- gated as a law and not as an order, as was done in this case. Those who maintain that the Bolsheviki gave the land to the peasants do not say the truth. Under the provisional government, before the Bolshevik government, all land was turned over to special agricul- tural committees. The committees had to establish control over all the land and see to it that this control was maintained. Senator Nelson. That was under the Kerensky government ? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes; that was still under Kerensky. I want to make this further statement that you will Linderstand that the mere publication of a decree without its being accepted by any constituent assembly or other legislative body does not mean really that the nationalization has been accomplished. Senator Overman. It is simply promises without ever carrying them out? Mr. Maetiuszine. Merely promises, and the agrarian problem in Eussia promises at this time to remain just as much unsolved as it ever was before. Senator Nelson. Mr. Martiuszine, you have stated that you are the son of a peasant, and your grandfather was a serf ? Mr. Martitjszine. Yes. Senator Nelson. Have you lived in what they call the mir ? Have you and your family lived in the Russian mir? Mr. Martitjszine. Yes. Senator Nelson. Will you please describe what a mir is ? Mr. Martiuszine. I have lived in the mir, and I am at present still a member of it. I am the owner of approximately 1 acre of land. Every 12 years the land is being redivided and reappor- tioned. Senator Nelson. Before you go into that, the land belongs to the mir, to the community, and not to the individual ? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes; it belongs to the community and not to the individual. Senator Nelson. And the officials of the community assign it to the peasants, to each his piece that he can work? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes ; that is so ; but the rules under which the land is divided are different, depending upon the district in which the land is situated. Senator Nelson. Different mirs. 908 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Martiuszine. Yes. For example, in the community to which I belong the land is being apportioned only among men ; -women do not get any land. Senator Nelsox. In some communities, some mirs, women get land, too, do they not ? Mr. Martiuszixe. In other communities women do get land appor- tioned to them. Senator Xelsox. And the land, after it has been used by a man or a woman for so many years, is reassigned to somebody else, and they get another assignment ? Mr. Martiuszixe. Yes; that is the case. There is a reapportion- ment, and it may come into other hands. Senator Nelsox. Then, under the Russian mir land system, the peasant does not get what we call a full title to the land as we do here in America, for example, but gets only the privilege of using it for a limited number of years under the authority of the mir ? Mr. Martiuszixe. Yes. Senator Nelsox. And that system has prevailed ever since Alex- ander the Second released the serfs? Mr. Marticszixe. Some peasants, so-called State peasants, have had that right for many years past. But those who were serfs of noblemen have had that right only since the liberation. Senator Nelsox. Through the mir? Mr. Martiuszixe. Yes. I want to point out that in Russia not all the land belongs to the communities. By law, before the revolution, the land that was owned by communities was reduced to about 30 per cent. The rest of the land became private property in the same way as people have private property in this country. Senator Nelson. The peasants were permitted to acquire that as private property in small quantities? Mr. Martiuszixe. That was a law passed before the revolution, but under the new regime all this has again been repealed. Senator Nelson. It is all now property of the State? Mr. Martiuszixe. Yes. Senator Nelson. And the Bolshevik government ? Mr. Martiuszixe. Yes. Senator Nelsox^. Now, the Cossacks had a different land system, did they not ? The Cossacks owned their own land ? Mr. Martiuszixe. They owned their own land. Senator Nelson. Each Cossack individually? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes. Senator Nelsox'. And he owned that because of the military serv- ice he was supposed to render? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes. Senator Nelsox-. The Cossacks are settled mainly on the lower Don and Volga Rivers ? Mr. Martiuszixe. On the Don and the Kuban and also in the south of Little Russia. Senator Nelson. The Ukraine? Mr. Martiuszix^e. Yes. Senator Nelsox. Are there any on the Kama? Mr. Martiuszixe. None. On the Kama the mir system mostly prevails. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 909 Senator Nelson. That is one of the main tributaries of the Volga ? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. Well, now, does the mir system or community system prevail in Siberia, too? Mr. Martiuszine. Both systems in Siberia. In some places the mir exists, in other places private property. Senator Nelson. Now, I ask you this : If this system of the Bol- shevik! is carried out — nationalization of land and making it the property of the state — if that is carried out according to the tech- nical decree, would it not divest the mirs of their present property, would it not take everything away from them as well as the private proprietors and from the church and from the government and what used to be the private domain, and would it not make it all one class •of lands, the lands of the government and the state ? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes ; that is the case ; and the lands owned by the mir will also become then nationalized. Senator Nelson. They will be taken away from the mirs like other lands and become the property of the state 'i Mr. Martiuszine. It may be that that land will be all taken and reapportioned again. Senator Nelson. Under that system? Mr. Martiuszine. Under that system ;' and it may be then that some land will be added in some cases and in other cases the land will be taken away from the mir. Senator Nelson. I want to go a step further. The Bolshevik land system in its application is not based upon the idea of giving the farmers or peasants who till the land any title to it; I mean any ownership in it. Mr. Martiuszine. No ; no title whatever. Senator Nelson. It simply gives him the use of what they can till for a limited time, is that it ? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes, that is the case, only title to till the land for a given time. Senator Nelson. And that must be assigned to them under, this new system by the local soviet, must it not ? I mean under the Bolshevik plan it must be assigned under the local peasant soviet? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes ; that will be the local soviet. Senator Nelson. In other words, that will take the place of the old community mir that we have been talking about, will it not ? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes ; not only in that one case of the redistribu- tion of land, but also in all other cases which are under the jurisdic- tion of the mir. Senator Overman. What percentage of the people of Russia favor Bolshevism ? Mr. Martiuszine. The only indication of the relative strength of the parties in Russia is in the election to the constituent assembly, and any judgment as to the support that the Bolsheviki find in Russia has to be based on the proportion of the votes cast in the elections to that assembly. Since that time no elections have taken place in any fair way, so that one could base a judgment. Neither Lenine nor Trotzky nor any of the other members of the local government have ever taken any interest or part in the peasants' cooperative societies or other peasant organizations. 910 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Sterling. Could a fair distribution of the land be ex- pected under Bolshevik government? Mr. Marticszine. Xo; it is not possible. Senator Steeling. Why not? Mr. Maetiuszine. Because the Bolshevik government introduces disorganization into the village itself, maintaining that only the poor- est among the peasants have a right to the land ; whereas those who have, let us say as an example, a cow, are already bourgeois. Senator Sterling. Would not their disposition be to distribute only to the Bolsheviki ? ilr. ]\lARTirsziNE. Yes. There are very few Bolsheviks in the vil- lages, and if the Bolsheviks turn over all the land only to Bolsheviks, the only result will be that they would create a new sort or Irind of noblemen. Senator Sterling. Do you mean to say by that that most of the peasants are anti-Bolshevik? Mr. Martitjszine. I mean that the majority of peasants are anti- Bolshevik. The peasants are not quite clear as to the various parties in Russia, but they hate the Bolsheviks because they have the prac- tical evidence of their rule. Senator Overman. Is there terror among the peasants? Mr. ]Mai!tiuszine. As an example, may I repeat what I said about the peasant cooperative societies, which are being persecuted by the Bolsheviki. The peasant Soviets which are not subservient to the Bolsheviki are being closed. When peasants go to the Bolsheviki asking for bread, for that reason alone they are sometimes shot, because the Bolsheviks can not supply the bread. That happened for example in Yaroslav, where the peasants do not grow gi-ain but produce flax and various other products. On JNIarch 15, the peas- ants belonging to the village from which I myself hail, came to me and made this statement, that the Bolsheviki threatened to deprive them of their own bread so as to appropriate it for general purposes. Senator Overman. What do the soldiers or the peasants that return from the army do with their munitions and guns? Mr. ^NIartiuszine. A small proportion of the weapons have been brought with them to the villages. For example, in the village in which I belong, they have possession of 20 rifles. Senator Overman. Was there any effort to take the guns and mu- nitions away from them, away from the peasants by the Bolsheviki? ]Mr. Martiuszine. I do not know that in this particular case at all, but in some cases it has happened that the Bolsheviki have taken the arms from the peasants. Senator Sterling. Were they supplied with ammunition? Mr. MARnusziNE. A very small quantity, only in those cases of which I have just been speaking. The peasants are greatly opposed to the requisitioning of grain, and I think they are not going to sow grain a great deal the coming spring. Senator Nelson. Have the Bolshevik authorities been engaged in commandeering or requisitioning gi'ain from the peasants? Mr. jMartiuszine. Yes. Senator Xelson. Has that been going on to a considerable extent? Mr. Maetiuszine. In the spring of this past year this was not taking place in any great proportion for the simple reason that the BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 911 peasants opposed it Yiolently in every case. The Bolsheviks have equipped a special regiment or army of workmen, and armed them with rifles and proclamations. That army was especially for the purpose of requisitioning grain from the peasants. Senator Nelson. They formed an army of proletariat workmen and armed them to go among the peasants and requisition and take the wheat? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes, sir. At that time there were no noblemen, no large estate owners of the nobilitj^ left any more in Russia, and all the grain that there was was belonging to the peasants. When ever the proclamation had no effect on the peasants, the rifles were put into use. Senator Nelson. And they took it with rifles. They did not pay for it then, did they ? Mr. Martitjszine. They were paying a very small sum of money, which was far below the actual cost, and wherever they found re- sistance they took the grain without paying for it. Senator Overman. Is there any such thing as starvation over there, and if so what is the extent of it ? Mr. Martiuszine. I think there is a great deal of shortage of food in central Eussia. For example, my wife has sent me a letter re- cently from central Russia where she is at present, stating that she had to pay 400 rubles for 36 pounds of grain, or rye flour, whereas the salary which I receive in Russia amounted to 1,000 rubles per month. Senator Overman. How is it in the cities of Moscow and Petrograd as to starvation? Mr. Maetiuszine. I have no personal knowledge of Moscow or Petrograd, but I want to call the attention of the committee to the fact that a gentleman, a member of the coojDerative society of Moscow, has just arrived in this country who left Russia in December, and if it is the pleasure of the committee I shall be glad to get the information from him. Senator Overman. How do the people in your section, where you live and where you have been, feel toward intervention by the allies? Mr. Martiuszine. I beg first permission to finish my statement here, and then I will speak about the question of intervention in another document, which I have prepared especially for that jDurpose. Senator Overman. All right. Mr. Maetiuszine. According to my information, the third cause of the power of the Bolsheviki is this : That the ranks of their op- ponents are being increased by reactionary elements who desire the reestablishment of the monarchy in Russia. As an example, the over- throw of the Siberian go-^-ernment by Admiral Kolchak may be mentioned. According to my opinion, the great danger of Bolshev- ism itself is in the fact that it prepares again the soil for a new re- actionary movement in Russia. Senator Overman. A restoration of the old regime? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes. The fourth cause or reason for the Bolsheviki holding out is be- cause they use to their own advantage the policy of the allies in re- gard to Russia. I can not go into great detail as to the policy of the allies in Russia. I merely want to dwell upon the question as it 912 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. developed in the northern part of Russia froun August 2 to Xovember 2, 191S. Other gentlemen and myself \Yere responsible for the over- throw, prepared the overthrow of the Bolsheviki in northern Eussia, and when the overthrow was accomplished we asked the allies to send us troops to Archangel. The regiments were asked for the pur^DOse of recruiting the eastern front to fight once more both the Germans and the Bolsheviki. At that time the Bolsheviki had al- ready formed the peace of Brest-Litovsk and the German ambassador vas in Moscow, and for this reason the allied ambassadors were at that time in the city of Vologda, and before Archangel was cleared of the Bolsheviki, the allied ambassadors were obliged to leave Vo- logda and to go to Murmansk. Senator Nelsox. Where? Mr. Maetiuszine. Alurmansk. Two or three weeks later the al- lied ambassadors were asked by the government of Archangel to come to Archangel where they are at the present moment. Senator Nelson. So I understand, then, that the allied forces are at Archangel at the invitation of the people and the authorities of northern Russia. Is that correct? Mr. Martitjszine. Yes; that is a correct statement, sir. The understanding was that the army of the northern government and of the Allies should join and take possession of Vologda and Kotlas. There were great supplies which were left in Archangel that were sent there by the Allies, and these supplies fell into the hands of the Bolsheviki, who had taken them out of Archangel to Dvina, and unfortunately the expectations of the Russians had not come true. I want to state that the reasons I give why that is so are my own personal opinions, but I am able to give support to my opinions by official documents which are in my possession. The chief trouble was that the Allies were able to send only a small number of soldiers at first, only 1,000 men. Later, American soldiers arrived there. Their number is probably known to the gentlemen of this commit- tee. In August the Bolsheviks had only a very small number of soldiers, and it would have been quite simple to take possession of that region and to establish connection with Vologda. But there have been not enough soldiers sent by the Allies, and the local popu- lation is very sparse in that region, and so it was impossible to accomplish it. Senator Xelsox. Xow are there not a few Italian soldiers and some British soldiers there, too, and some Serbian soldiers? Mr. Martiuszixe. There were only Britishers and a few French soldiers, but neither Italians nor Serbians. Senator Nelsox. Have any of the Russians up there joined this army, any of the Russians formed an army to assist the Allies? ^fr. Martittszixe. Yes; there have been Russians. In the city of Archangel and all the villages Russian regiments have been formed. They weie responsible for the overthrow of the Bolshevik govern- ment. Senator Nelsox. And they are cooperating with the Allies? ]Mr. ]Martiuszixe. Yes; they were all under the command of an allied general. Another trouble existed in the fact that the allied military com- mand began to interfere with the internal affairs in northern BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 913 Eussia. Instead of doing nothing but attending to their own mili- tary side of affairs, they began to interfere with civil affairs, and then appointed a military governor without asking the consent of the civil government at that time. They have introduced a military censorship, which at the same time became a political censorship. Finally several members of the allied military command took •part in the overthrow of the northern government, which liappened the 2d of September. Capt. Chaplin, who was under the immediate command of Gen. Poole, the British general, was the one responsible for this overthrow of the government. After the overthrow of the government, the allied ambassadors, and especially Ambassador Francis, took a hand in the matter. Mr. Francis refused to acknowl- edge the new government, which was a reactionary government, and Mr. Francis demanded a reinstatement of the Tchaikowski govern- ment. Senator Nelson. The old civil anti-Bolshevik government? Mr. Maetiuszine. The old anti-Bolshevik government. Senator Steeling. And has the old anti-Bolshevik government been reestablished ? Mr. Maetiuszine. Because of the demand made by Ambassador Francis, who was supported in his demand by the allied ambassadors, and because of the protests of the local population which arranged various strikes against the new government, the government of Tchaikowski was reinstated in power. Senator Steeling. And it was this interference upon the part of the military authorities with the old government that made the dis- satisfaction, and not the coming of the army itself? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes. The arrival of the soldiers themselves of the allied and American soldiers in Archangel was welcomed by the entire Russian population, and I aha not aware of a single fact that would show that they did not want their arrival. Especially the arrival of the soldiers was appreciated after food was sent there to save the Eussian population from starvation. Senator Steeling. I would like to know how the Bolshevik army in northern Russia is made up, of what elements, of what nation- alities? Mr. Maetiuszine. At the time I left Russia the Bolshevik army in central Russia consisted mostly of Letts, and of sailors of various nationalities, including Russians. Senator Steeling. Were there any Chinamen in the army ? Mr. Maetiuszine. Those who took part in various encounters maintained that there were a few Chinamen among them. At the time I left Russia the relations between the Russian government and the Allies became again more friendly, because Gen. Poole and Capt. Kamp went away on leave of absence. With the other com- manders very friendly relations were at once established. Senator Steeling. I would like to know what you may know about the Czecho-Slovak movement, or the movement of the Czecho-Slovak army in Eussia ? Mr. Maetiuszine. I have no personal knowledge of the Czecho- slovak movement and the only thing I know about that, is from other sources. 85723—19 58 914 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Steeling. Was it your understanding that they were stopped under orders from Lenine and Trotsky after they had been given permission to pass through Russia on to Vladivostok ? Mr. MARTitrsziNE. My opinion i.- to the effect that the Czecho- slovaks have been spread and stopped in various localities for the express purpose of enabling the soviet governments to disarm them whenever it would be possible. I would like to have permission now to finish my statement. Senator Overman. Very well. Mr. Martiuszine. I think that the question of Bolshevism is not merely a local, Russian question, but that it affects the whole world. In Russia they have through violence destroyed democracy, and it is their intention to do the same in all other countries. I myself was working togethei' with Lenine and Trotsky in the soviet ait the time when both Lenine and Trotsky had only a small following in the soviet, and only later when they got more power did they get rid of that majority. And now that they use nothing but violence, by means of arms against the Russian people, I can not see any possibility for the Russian people, for the mass of them, to have any understand- ing whatsoever with the Bolsheviki. If the allies, and especially the American people, want to give help to the Russian people, they must give help against the Bolsheviki. Senator Nelson. You say give help. Do you mean by that armed forces ? Mr. Martifszink. Both economic and military help; and I make the statement that only such help will be effective as is given with the direct statement that no interference with the internal affairs of Russia will take place. The Russian democracy is especially anxious to support the American democracy, which has shown so much re- gard for the Russian people. I was personally a witness at meetings at which the representatives of American missions stated that they are in favor of a democratic order of things, such as could be estab- lished through the constituent assembly, and if the Russian people can not get any help from the American people in this cause, then they do not need the help of any other people. The Russian people are going to fight Bolshevism with the same determination as they have been fighting czarism, and they are sure that the American people will support them in their demands to gain such freedom as the American people themselves have attained. Senator Sterling. And they desire this help in order that order may be established and this violence stopped, so that under the constituent assembly they may form a true democratic government? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes. The Russian democracy does not want civil war. It wants the cessation of hostilities between Russians and the convocation of the constituent assembly. Senator Nelson. And they do not want the Bolshevik system of government there, do they ? Mr. Martiuszine. There is no more use for the Bolshevik order of things in Russia than there was for the Czar's regime, and you gentlemen surely are aware of the fact of the kind of love the Rus- sian people had for the Czar's government. Senator Nelson. You have no more love for this government of two czars, Lenine and Trotsky, than you had for the one Czar, Nicholas ? BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 915 Mr. Maetiuszine. That is true, and 1 express the belief that such people as Madam Breshkovsky and Tchaikowski represent the real desire and spirit of the Russian people. I am quite sure that both Madam Breshkovsky and Tchaikowski know the Eussian people much better than Lenine, who to the last moment was speaking of the peasants as of bourgeoisie. Senator Nelson. You think, then, that Madam Breshkovsky and Tchaikowski represent the sentiment of the Eussian people — the great mass of them ? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes; that is the case. They represent the real desires and hopes of the mass of the Eussian people. I beg to state that I shall be very glad to answer any questions that you desire to put, but owing to the lack of knowledge of the English lan- guage I am unable to give a more detailed statement than I have; but I am quite sure that being a Russian myself and knowing the Bussing language and coming from the Russian people I know more about Eussia than do those who go to Eussia for only a short time, without true knowledge of the language, think they can quickly understand the spirit of the people. Senator Nelson. What do you think are the purposes of Trotsky and Lenine? What is their object? Mr. Martiuszine. I think both Lenine and Trotsky are fanatics, just as there have been fanatics in religion in older times, and that they believe they have to destroy everything that is of a different opinion from theirs. One of their objects is that they want to over- throw all governments everywhere and to introduce a dictatorship of the proletariat throughout the world. You can see the kind of dic- tatorship they want from what is happening in Eussia. And just as Russia ought to get rid of this regime just as soon as it can, so the other countries should not allow the establishment of a similar regime in their respective countries. Senator Nelson. Are you of the Slav race? Mr. Martiuszine. I am a Slav. Senator Nelson. A Eussian Slav ? Mr. Martiuszine. A Eussian Slav, but in the region from which I come in former times there was a great deal of a mixture of blood, and that is expressed in my face. Senator Nelson. You are a Russian Slav and not a Hebrew ? Mr. Martiuszine. I am a Russian Slav and not a Hebrew. Senator Steeling. Did you know some of the leaders in the Duma at the time of the March revolution in 1917 ? Mr. Martiuszine. Personally I was not acquainted with them. Senator Steeling. From what you know of them or have heard of them, do you believe that they were sincere in trying to form a con- stituent assembly? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes, I believe they were perfectly sincere. Senator Nelson. Have you ever heard of Col. Robins over there in Eussia ? Mr. Martiuszine. I had no personal interview with him, but I heard of him. Senator Nelson. What did you hear about him and his activities? Mr. Martiuszine. I heard that Col. Robins entered into certain agreements with the Bolsheviki at the time when the American am- 916 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. bassador, Mr. Francis was leading a distinctly anti-Bolshevist policy there. Senator Xelson. Please repeat that. Mr. Maetiuszine. I understood Col. Robins entered into some kind of relationship — that he entered into a parley with the Bolsheviki. Senator Nelson. Entered into negotiations? Mr. Maetiuszine. Negotiations with the Bolshevists at the time when the American ambassador, Mr. Francis, was leading an anti- Bolshevist policy there. Senator Nelson. At the time when Mr. Francis was anti-Bol- shevist ? Senator Steeling. And leading a policy of anti-Bolshevism? Mr. MAETirrsziNE. Yes. Senator Nelson. That is, Col. Robins had a different policy from Ambassador Francis over there. Is that your understanding? Mr. Maetiuszine. It looks as if that were so, but I do not know whether Col. Robins was under the ambassador or whether he was receiving special instructions from the Government here. Senator Oveeman. You said you served as a representative in this great congress in which Lenine and Trotsky were members. Were Lenine and Trotsky elected to that assembly as you were ? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes ; they were elected to the congress. Senator Oveeman. What soviet elected them? Mr. Maetiuszine. I was a member of the soviet of peasant depu- ties. Lenine and Trotsky were members of the soviet of workers' deputies, but the two Soviets had joint sessions for the consideration of questions wliich affected both bodies. Senator Oveesiax. Was Trotsky known as a working man? Mr. Maetiuszine. He was elected by working men, but since he went to Russia from this country the people of this country ought to know better than I do what he was doing here. Senator Oveeman. You do not know what he was doing over there when he went back before he was elected ? Mr. Maetiuszine. No ; I am aware of the fact that a number of the commissaries at present in Russia came from this country. Senator Nelson. Are there not a number of the officials of this Bolshevik government who came from this country, who were here some years and went back there and became commissaries and held other positions there? Mr. Maetiuszine. I know of several of that kind of men who came from this country to Russia and then became commissaries and members of the government. Senator Nelson. Do you think those men who came from here in that way are a valuable acquisition to the Russian people, and that they are doing them any good in this emergency? Mr. Maetiuszine. There is a Russian proverb that some friends are more dangerous than enemies. Senator Nelson. Some friends are more dangerous than enemies? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes. Senator Nelson. Do you think that applies to this class of men who have gone from here over there ? Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes ; that is what I think. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 917 Senator Overman. What kind of work did Trotsky do over there? He was elected as a workingman. Mr. Maetitjszine. Before coming to Russia Mr. Trotsky was con- tributing articles to certain newspapers, but when he became a com- missaory he suppressed such newspapers. Senator Nelson. Have the Bolsheviki suppressed all anti-Bolshe- vik newspapers? Mr. Martiuszine. At the time when I left Russia there were still a few anti-Bolshevist newspaper publishers, but after July the news- papers were suppressed. Senator Nelson. All anti-Bolshevist papers were suppressed? Mr. Martiuszine. All anti-Bolshevist newspapers were suppressed. Senator Nelson. And that is the condition now? Mr. Martiuszine. So far as I know, that is so. The private print- ing establishments have all been requisitioned and turned over to the soviet. Senator Nelson. That is, they have commandeered and requisi- tioned all private printing shops ? Mr. Martiuszine. Only the chief ones, not all, but the most im- portant ones. For example, in Moscow, the printing shop of the newspaper Russkoe-Slovo is requisitioned. It is a large paper like the New York Times, and this printing shop together with all the paper supply was turned over to the soviet without any reimburse- ment whatever. Senator Nelson. In other words it would be as though our Gov- ernment would take possession of the New York Times and of its printing establishment and all its supplies, would it? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes, sir; and without paying for it either. Senator Nelson. Without paying for it? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes. Senator Nelson. That is the Bolshevik method, is it not ? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes. Senator Nelson. That is what they mean by free press is it ? Mr. Martiuszine. That is Trotsky's idea and the idea of the Bol- sheviki of free press. Senator Nelson. Have you ever come across what they call the Ked Guard? Have you ever seen any of them in operation? Mr. Martiuszine. I would like to know what you desire to know about them. Senator Nelson. I want to know if you have ever seen them, and if you can tell us what kind of men they are and how they operate, and what they have been doing where you have seen them. Mr. Martiuszine. I can tell you about the Red Guard in Moscow. In Moscow in May the anarchists took possession of the richest pri- vate dwellings. Thus they were putting into effect the program of the Bolsheviks. But the^ Bolsheviks themselves preferred to put into operation their own program, so on one day they surrounded these dwellings with their Red Guards with quick-firing guns and began bombarding the dwellings. I was witness of one case in a street where one of these dwellings was taken by the Red Guard. Fifteen of the anarchists were arrested. After that all the furniture in that dwelling was removed, and' taken no one knows where. Senator Nelson. By the Bolsheviki ? 918 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Martiuszine. By the Red Guards who were engaged in takino- jjossession. Senator Xel.sox. Did the officials of the Red Guard take pos- session of the building and use it ? Mr. Martiuszine. No, they did not take possession of the building itself. Xothing was left there. Senator Xelson. They took everything out of it? Mr. Marticszine. Yes, they took everything out of it. Workers who supported the Bolsheviki made statements to the effect that an- archists act more fairly than the Bolsheviki themselves, because vhey leave at least some of the things to the workers. Senator Nelson. But the Bolsheviki strip everything? Mr. Martiuszine. The Red Guards take everything, and no one knows what happens to the things. Senator Nelson. When the Red Guard arrest people and take them to jail, nobody knows what becomes of them, do they? Mr. Martiuszine. Some information leaks out; but in many cases the people arrested are liberated only after bribery has been paid to the authorities. That system was already in existence under the government of the Czar and therefore nobody is amazed at it. Senator Nelson. They made the old system of bribery that was in operation under the Czar? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes. Senator Nelson. That is the connecting link between the Bolshe- vik government and the old government of the Czar — bribery ? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes ; I think so. Senator Overman. Did you see much killing or know of any kill- ing over there? Ml'. Martiuszine. I have made some statements about that, but there are no statistics available. Senator Overman. Have you any statements about that here? Mr. Martiuszine. I have already stated some of those cases. Senator Nelson. Do you think that an American who has been over there 8 or 10 months and flitted about between Moscow and Petrograd, and whose main duties have been to distribute milk and other rations among the people, a man who came along the Siberian Railroad without taking any stop-over ticket at any point, finally emerging either in Korea or Vladivostok, would be apt to Imow the feeling and sentiment of the Russian peasants ? Mr. Martiuszine. I think such a gentleman might have a some- what better idea than the old Czar's bureaucrats had, but only a very little better. Senator Nelson. That is such a man would be looking at the Rus- sian people through the eyes of the Czar? Is that what you mean to say? Mr. Martiuszine. He would form an ideii of the Russian people only as a bureaucrat forms an idea and not through actual acquaint- ance with the Russian people. Senator Sterling. He would have no better understanding of the real Russian people than a bureaucrat would ? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes. In other words, if he had a preconceived idea, he would have exactly the chance to find support for that pre- conceived idea, without finding any evidence to the contrary. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 919 Senator Nelson. I wish to ask you one rather personal question. You have stated that your grandfather was a serf, and that your father was a peasant. Do you consider yourself as belonging to the class of Eussian peasants ? Mr. Maetiuszine. Naturally, I consider myself a peasant, inas- much as I still am a member of one of the communes or mirs. Senator Nelson. You have an acre of land that you cultivate. I believe you must not hire anybody to help you to cultivate that, under the Bolshevik government. Mr. Maetiuszine. I can not do that. Senator Nelson. You have to roll up your shirt sleeves and do it yourself ? Mr. Maetiuszine. My father and brothers are now engaged in tilling the soil. Senator Ovee5[an. You are elected by your own soviet to the gen- neral meeting, are you not ? Mr. Maetiuszine. I was elected to the All-Eussian Assembly of Peasants which took place on the I7th of May, 1917. These Soviets had as their object the convocation of the constituent assembly, and the participation by the peasantry in the establishment of a demo- cratic regime in Russia, and I would be willing to acknowledge the sovereign of the soviet only if the constituent assembly should de- cide in favor of the soviet, if it should decide that all power should be given to them. Senator Nelson. That is, you mean the local soviet? Mr. Maetiuszine. I would acknowledge the soviet system, the soviet sovereignty if the constituent assembly should acknowledge it. Then I would bow before it. Senator Nelson. Did they have a fair election to the constituent assembly ? Mr. Maetiuszine. I think on the whole the elections were very fair, and perhaps there were only a very few cases where they were not. Senator Nelson. I refer to the constituent assembly for the entire country. You have said that election was very fair, for that assembly that the Bolsheviki dissolved. Mr. Maetiuszine. Yes. Senator Oveeman. How did the Bolsheviki dissolve that assembly ? Senator Nelson. By force, he says. Mr. Maetiuszine. I should like to elaborate my statement by com- paring it with what would take place in this country if there should be formed a soviet l^ere, and the Senate and House of Representatives should be willing to turn over their power to the soviet, then of course the people would be submitting themselves to that power but not otherwise. That is exactly the case with Russia. If this constituent assepibly would acknowledge the power of the soviet, then I would bow before it. Senator Oveeman. How was the constituent assembly dissolved? Mr. Maetiuszine, I was taking part in the session of that con- stituent assembly, and if you desire I will tell you how it happened. Senator Nelson. How was it dissolved ? Mr. Maetiuszine. First I want to tell what was happening on that day in Petrograd. All the organizations in Petrograd including the soviet of the peasant assembly wanted to make a demonstration 920 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. in favor of the assembly and to go to express their pleasure to the assembly itself, to make a demonstration in its favor. All such demonstrations, however, had been forbidden and the people were dispersed by the Red Guard. During this dispersal several people were killed, including a personal acquaintance of mine, the soldier Ludvinov. Senator Nelson. Was the constituent assembly itself dispersed by the Red Guards, or how was it dispersed or dissolved? Mr. Martiuszine. The first session of the constituent assembly closed at 3 o'clock in the morning, because the soldiers on duty there made the statement that the Red Guard were tired and wanted to go to sleep, and that if they would not close their session they would be dispersed. The Bolsheviks who were present then left and the whole building was surrounded bj' soldiers. Senator Nelson. What became of the members who attended, after the building was surrounded by soldiers? Mr. Maetiuszine. This took place late in the night, and the mem- bers of the assembly, not being armed, did not want to make any re- sistance. There was such a noise in the gallery that it was impos- sible to make out what people were saying. The Bolsheviki had their own supportei-s in the galleries who were making the noise, Avhistling and yelling so that they did not allow others to be heard. When the president of the assembly told them that they should not do that, and that if they persisted in making a noise they would be re- moved from the hall, they yelled back, " Just try it and you will see that we are going to disperse you." As it was impossible to continue the session under those circumstances the president announced a re- cess at 3 o'clock in the morning with the intention of reconvening again in the morning. Before morning the Bolsheviki passed a decree that the constituent assembly was closed. Senator Nelson. Dissolved? Mr. Maetitjszine. Dissolved, and since then they have allowed no one to enter the building. After that some 30 members of the con- stituent assembly were arrested. Senator Nelson. Was it the Bolshevik soldiers or the Red Guards that surrounded that building during the night ? Mr. Martiuszine. There had been Red Guards, but mostly Letts and sailors. Senator Nelson. From the Kronstadt fleet? Mr. Martiuszine. From the Kronstadt fleet. Senator Nelson. And Letts? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes. Senator Nelson. Those were the soldiers they had that surrounded the constituent assembly? Mr. Martiuszine. Yes. Senator Overman. We are very much obliged to you, sir. ^Ir. Humes. Mr. Chairman, just at this point I would like to call the committee's attention to the fact that Col. Hurban, the military attache of the Czecho-Slovak legation, has jsresented a statement which he requests to be incorporated into the record with regard to two or three of the statements made by Col. Robins this morning as to the oiRcial act of the Czecho-Slovak army. In this statement Col. Hurban points out that he was a member of the Czecho-Slovak na- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 921 tional council which entered into the agreement with the Bolsheviki government relative to the withdrawal of the Czecho-Slovak army. It is merely a statement of fact replying to two or three of those statements and I do not want to take the time to read it but request that it be put into the record in justice to Col. Hurban. Senator Overman. We agreed to allow him- to make a statement and it may go in. (The statement referred to is here printed in the record as follows:) In the Interest of the truth, I wish to correct parts of the statement made by Colonel Robins before the Overman Senate Committee. Colonel Robins sated : " The Soviet government granted free passage to the Czechoslovaks through Archangel and Murmansk, not through Siberia. This is incorrect. The Czechlo.slovak National Council, of which I was a membei- at that time, made an agreement with the Soviet government on the 26th of March, 1918, guaranteeing the passage of our army through Siberia. We desired to prove our neutrality in the civil war, and our loyalty to the Soviet as the de facto government by disarming and we disarmed. This cir- cumstance is the best proof of our loyalty. Archangel could not be considered, because the port was frozen and the northern regions could not feed an army of 60,000 men. Murmansk could not he taken into consideration, because the Germans were 80 versts from Petro- grad. Finland was under control of the Germans, and it was a strategic im- possibility to fight our way through on the Murman railway. More than this, the Murman railway was in such condition that it would have required about half a year to transport 60,000 men over it. Besides, the Murman railway ran through a famine region. Only at the end of May, as the head of our army had reached "Vladivostok and the rear was in the region of Penza, a distance of more than 6000 miles apart, the Soviet government proposed that part of our army, namely, that which was west of Omsk, should be directed toward Archangel. At this time we had many documentary proofs of the treachery of the- Soviet government, and it has been unanimously rejected by the whole army. This is the truth. Colonel Robins stated : " Trotzky's order to disarm completely the Czecho- •slovaks was Issued as a consequence of the fact that the 15,000 Czechoslovaks which reached Aladivostok did not sail but started to go hack to fight ^the Soviet government." This is incorrect. At the time of the above-mentioned agreement with the Soviet government, of the 26th of March, 1918, we received the first proof of the prepared Bolsheviki treachery, provoked by the pressure of the Germans. The commander of the Bolsheviki army which was sent to Penza to disarm 'us (His name was Cohan. He was afterwards killed by order of the Penza Soviet) communicated with us to the efEect that there was a plan to disarm lis and deliver us to the Austrian and Germans. He stated that he knew we were not the enemies of the Soviet, that we only wanted to get out from Russia. He explained that the Soviet government was forced to act in this way be- cause it was at the mercy of the Germans. In the beginning of May Commissioner Tchicherin gave an order to the Siberian Soviets to stop our trains, and to let pass only German and Austrian prisoners. On the 27th of May our trains were attacked In different places — Penza, Celjabinsk, and Irkutsk — by order of Trotzky. The 15,000 men in Vladivostok were still neutral ; and three members of the Czechoslovak Na- tional Council, of whom I was one, continued to deal vnth the Soviet govern- ment in Sibera in an effort to stop the quarreling. Only as Trotzky arrested our delegates sent to Moscow to deal with him, and the rear trains of our array were attacked, mainly by Germans and Magyars, released prisoners armed by Soviets, the 15,000 Czechoslovaks in Vladivostok started to move westward to help their betrayed brothers. This was at the end of June. This is the truth. Colonel Robins, in his statement about Czechoslovaks, paid words of tribute to their heroism and right to fight against Germany and Austria. I appreciate his words ; but he stated also that " everyone is stating how Bolshevis are ter- rorizing and shooting people, but nobody says anything about the terror caused by the Czechoslovaks in shooting Bolshevikis." With all firmness, I reject this 922 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. general accusation, and I reject the comparison with the Bolshevik! tactics. The Bolshevilii admit terror officially as a weapon against their adversaries. We disclaim any terror. Colonel Robins must know that thousands and thousands of Russian Bolshe- vik Red Guards had been captured and disarmed by us, but were not punished nor interned in camps, but released to go home to make their peace work. Colonel Robins must know that after disarming the Vladivostok Soviet troops we not only let them go 'home, but allowed them to make big funeral demon- strations for the Bolsheviki killed in action, and we released from prison where he was held as a hostage the Soviet head, Suchanow, to make speeches at these funerals. Germans and Magyars in the Red Army were not considered by us as fighters tor Russian Soviets, but as our old enemies. Everybody who has been in this war, not at a desk but in places where human life is at very low price, knows and considers it natural that there occur dif- ferent atrocities and irregularities made mainly by small groups of irresponsible people. It would be naive and academic if I would absolutely deny that some of our soldiers in different places did unlawful things. No army chief can deny this of his army. But everything was done by our command and our volun- teer soldiers themselves to avoid, diminish, and punish such cases. I think it is unjust to generalize from single cases, and not to see our gen- ■eral attitude toward the misled Russian people. The above-mentioned cases illustrate truthfully the attitude of the whole ■Czechoslovak army, toward the Bolshevikis. Colonel Vladimib S. Htjbban, Military Attach^ of the Czechoslovak Legation. March 7, 1919. Mr. Humes. Mr. Hatzel. TESTIMONY OF MR. FREDERICK H. HATZEL. (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) Mr. Humes. Mr. Hatzel, where do you reside ? Mr. Hatzel. Long Island. ':.'' Mr. Humes. Were you in Russia recently? Mr. Hatzel. Yes, sir. Mr. Humes. During what period of time? Mr. Hatzel. From September, 1916, to the 16th of May, 1918. Mr. Humes. In what capacity were you serving in Russia during that time? Mr. Hatzel. I served in a machine shop and ammunition shop and a.lso in the service of the Red Cross under Col. Robins. Mr. Humes. In the service of the Red Cross, what was your ca- pacity ? Mr. Hatzel. In charge of the warehouse. Mr. Humes. The warehouse of the Red Cross? ' Mr. Hatzel. Yes, sir. Mr. Humes. Were you during that part of the time working under the direction of Col. Robins ? Mr. Hatzel. Yes, sir. Mr. Humes. And secondly under the direction of Maj. Wardwell? Mr. Hatzel. Yes, sir. Mr. Humes. Xoat to disgress just a moment. You heard the state- ment a moment ago of the last witness with regard to seizing furni- ture and the looting of houses. Mr. Hatzel. Yes, sir. Mr. Humes. Supplementing that, will you state what disposition was made by the government of the furniture that was taken from those houses from time to time, as you saw it and knew it? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 923 ^Ir. PIatzel. During the time mentioned, in Petrograd the Bol- shevists opened commission houses, that is, stores where all stolen goods which were stolen by the Eed Army were sold back to the public from whom they were stolen, and that was the way the furni- ture and all sorts of articles were disposed of. Mr. Humes. Did they have just one store for this, or many 'I Mr. Hatzel. Many. Mr. Humes. To go back to the beginning of the Bolshevik revolu- tion, will you just state briefly and in your own way what the situa- tion was in Petrograd, and what you saw there in reference to the operation of the government? Mr. Hatzel. At the time of the Kerensky overthrow of the gov- ernment, there was considerable firing and carousing in the streets of Petrograd. In the first place, wine cellars were raided. In these instances Bolshevik troops, if they saw persons with bottles under their arms, would shoot them. I have seen in front of the Marensky Palace, one of the large theaters in Russia, three men shot for carry- ing bottles. Mr. Humes. What was the food situation ? Mr. Hatzel. The food situation Avas bad. Of course cards were issued for everything — sugar, meat, bread, butter, and the like. Meat and butter you could hardly receive, and potatoes were just as scarce. For bread you probably would have to stand in line for three or four hours, sometimes longer, and then get an eighth of a pound. Senator Nelson. An eighth of a pound? Mr. Hatzel. Yes. Sometimes it was so soggy that it would prob- ably be a mouthful — black bread. Mr. Humes. Go on and describe the operations there. Mr. Hatzel. Also kerosene. The poorer classes in Petrograd have no electric light or gas in their houses. They use kerosene lamps. They also had to stand in line for kerosene. You were allowed only a certain amount, and if you did not get there in time it was gone, and you were without light. As to electricity, the Bolsheviks allowed it for certain hours, from 8 at night until 12, but during the rest of the day there was no power and no factories could run. Mr. Humes. You say you worked in a factory. What factory? Mr. Hatzel. The Pneumatic Machine Tool Co., the one operated by Mr. Leuche, an American citizen. Mr. Humes. What was manufactured? Mr. Hatzel. Pneumatic tools, the same as the Chicago Pneumatic Tool Co. manufactures. Mr. HiTMEs. Was that plant in operation when you left? Mr. Hatzel. It was closed when I left. Mr. Humes. About when did they close? Mr. Hatzel. Two months after the overthrow of the old regime — that is. May — and I have a paper to the effect that if the factory should open in two months all the old workers would be received back again. However, the factory did not open. The motors were taken out of the shop by the Bolsheviks. Mr. Humes. For what purpose? Mr. Hatzel. That I do not not know. They were taken out by the Red Guards. Senator Steeling. How many men were employed in that insti- tution ? 924 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Hatzel. We had about 400 men, one factory. We also were turning out parts of ammunition for the French military mission- that is, firing heads for 3-inch shrapnel shells. Also electrical ap- paratus, wiring, small motors. Lots and lots of that was also stolen. Money was confiscated out of the shops. The workmen, the working committee — of which every shop had a committee— had nothing to say. The chairman of each of these committees ^yas in the local soviet. The chairman of ours happened to be a social revolutionist. He later on Avas shot. I did not see it done, but he was shot. Senator Sterling. For what reason, do you know? Mr. Hatzel. No reason whatever. Probably because he was a social revolutionist. Senator Sterling. Did he have any trial? Mr. Hatzel. No trial. One day I was walking past the canal called the Fontanka, going down to the E,ed Cross warehouse, and I saw a crowd of men and women yelling like fiends, you might say, and they had a long pole and were pushing it up and down in the water, and I asked one of the men what they were doing and he said they were just killing a thief. The man probably wanted some bread or something like that, and had stolen something. The answer to that was that he was thrown into the canal and poked down into tlie canal with this long pole. Then again it went on that no person could carry any packages. If a person was seen with a package the Bolsheviki or the Red guards took it away from him. Then came the order for the people to open their apartments to the search of the Eed Guards for arms and ammunition, and in this search they were not content to take merely arms and ammunition, but they took supplies that the people had stored away against a little harder times. Senator Sterling. Were you associated with Mr. Robins over there? Mr. Hatzel. Well, I was not directly under the command of Mr. Robins. I was under Capt. Magneson and Maj. Wardwell. Senator Sterxjng. You saw many of these things that he did not see, evidently? Mr. Hatzel. I was out among the people all the time. In fact I had 20 workers in the warehouse on this condensed milk all the time until it was completed. Senator Sterling. You had better opportunity to know what was going on that he did ? Mr. Hatzel. I believe so. He was inside and I had it from the outside. Also this private car that was transferred to the tracks near this wareliouse. I personally was asked to stay in that car to see that the Bolsheviks did not try to get our supplies. I stayed there in that car, and I had these five rifles with me. This was the car that went to Jassy, and I had those same five rifles. I have no doubt they were the same rifles that he mentioned on the train going to Siberia. Nothing happened the first few weeks, but toward the end when the milk supply was nearly finished, the Bolsheviks came around to the warehouse and a young gentleman by the name of Orris, speak- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 925 ing fluent English — he had also been to Jassy on this supply train — came into the warehouse to take over charge of the milk and things. My duty in supplying milk was finished, getting the milk ready for distribution. New labels had to be put on instead of the original Borden labels, a special label that stated it was from the Eed Cross, free, and not to be sold. Anyone caught selling it was to be liable to arrest. It was to prevent speculation, I suppose.. We had a few cans more than he estimated. There were, I think, 500,000 cans. The Bolsheviks came around. We had the Rouma- nian supplies; warm clothing, coats, blankets, and stockings, which were held up, I believe, pending some kind of authority from Eoumania to ship them; and also about 3,000 barrels of salted beef and meat. I heard later, from what I learned from Orris, that this all fell into the hands of the Bolsheviks. The warm clothing the same way ; it was taken by force — that is, the warehouse was. broken into and it was taken. Senator Sterling. Col. Robins gave us no accoiJnt of that. Mr. Hatzel. I was here at the time, but I do not know whether he forgot it or what it was; but it was done. That is the fact. If Orris were in this country he could tell more about it than I can. Senator Nelson. They broke in and took the salted beef and the warm clothing? Mr. Hatzel. Yes ; the salted beef. Out of 3,000- barrels, six bar- rels were given to the Salvation Army. Eventually that meat fell into the hands of the Bolsheviks. Would it not have been better right at the start, when conditions were bad in Petrograd, to give that meat to the Russian public through the cooperation of the American Eed Cross and open it for that purpose than to let it fall into the hands of the Bolsheviks? Senator Nelson. That would not have helped the Bolsheviki. Mr. Hatzel. No; it would not, of course. But evidently it did. Senator Overman. It has been stated here that some supplies were asked for by the American colony and denied. Do you know whether it was so or not ? Mr. Hatzel. I happened to visit Dr. George Simons one night after work. He has testified before the committee. He said to me, "Mr. Hatzel, do you know of any supplies — Red Cross supplies— in Petrograd ? " I said, " Yes." " Where are they ? " " They are in the warehouse, and I am in charge of the warehouse." He said, " What ! Col. Robins told me to-day that all the supplies had been transferred to Moscow." I said, "That is funny. You had better come down to look at the stock yourself." And he came down the next day, and he took an account of just what was there, so many boxes of this and so many of that. Senator Nelson. Were you with him? Mr. Hatzel. I was with him. Senator Nelson. And the goods were there? Mr. Hatzel. And the goods were there. Senator Sterling. How many and what kind of goods were there ? Mr. Hatzel. Why we had cases of sardines, cases of canned meat, barrels of sugar, barrels of ham, that is small kegs of ham, and of bacon. Senator Nelson. Flour? 926 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1 1 I Mr. Hatzel. Flour. I think we had 60 of these 200-pound bags of flour. Of course all this was in the name of Col. Thompson, who commanded previous to Col. Eobins. Senator Nelson. He had left before that ^ Mr. Hatzel. He had left. Senator Nelson. So that practically the supreme command was in the hands of Col. Eobins t Mr. Hatzel. Practically so. A^'ell, when Dr. Simons had seen these supplies he went to Col. Eobins and asked him in plain even- day language why he had lied to him. Eobins said that they were not there. Dr. Simons replied, " I have just seen them.*' He said, " Well, I did not laiow about them." So Dr. Simons asked for some supplies tliere in the warehouse saying, " Now I want supplies. Can I have them or not, not only myself, but here is a list of the Ameri- can colony in Petrograd. These people are all asking for food." He mentioned one in particular, Bodrie. Bodrie is in ]ail now for trying to get con'densed milk into Eussia. That was against the Bol- shevik plans. He was married and had a small child and that child had to have something to eat, but he could not get it and Dr. Simons says, " Now that man needs it. Can he have it? '' He was told em- phatically, " No." Senator Nelson. By whom was he told " No " '( Mr. Hatzel. According to Dr. Simons it was Col. Eobins. Senator Nelson. And did Mr. Simons get any of those supplies '. Mr. Hatzel. Not at that time. Then Col. Eobins I believe left for Vologda and the supplies that were remaining were turned over to the National City Bank, in charge of Mr. Stephens. Then Dr. Simons applied to him. He said, " Simons, I know no more about these provisions than you do. I do not know who is to get them yet. I have telegraphed Eobins to let me know, and I have not heard." Dr. Simons said, " All right, I will wait until you get an answer." However, no answer was received. Four or five days after that Col. Eobins came back. But the next day he left again and left Maj. Wardwell in charge. Maj. Wardwell afterwards distributed all the supplies in certain proportions to people of the American colony. Senator Nelson. After Eobins had left? Mr. Hatzel. After Eobins had left. Senator Nelson. Did he leave for good? Mr. Hatzel. For good. Senator Nelson. Did not come back after that? Mr. Hatzel. That was before May 1. Senator Nelson. Which way did he go? Mr. Hatzel. I believe he went toward Moscow. Senator Nelson. After he had gone, then the goods were all dis- tributed bv Maj. Wardwell, you say? Mr. Hatzel. That is it. Senator Nelson. Among the Americans ? Mr. Hatzel. Yes. We also had an Englishman in the office by the name of Henley. This Englishman and quite a few other English- men have been seen by Americans in Petrograd when they had visited their houses to always have a certain large amount of American Eed Cross supplies. So there were Englishmen who were getting supplies, but here were American citizens who could not get them. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 927 Senator Nelson. Did you have any orders from Col. Eobins about what you should do with the goods there ? Mr. Hatzel. No, sir. I was in charge of the warehouse and I was to store up the cars when they left and I was to get milk out. That was as far as the position carried me. I will admit Capt. Magneson had delivered some supplies to me, which I distributed among a few American friends of mine. But I understood, and I doubt if there was any person receiving any supplies outside the Red Cross. And it is certain that Mr. Henley in the office said that Col. Robins had left and had turned the distribution over to Maj. Wardwell. Senator Sterling. You say American friends of yours resident in Petrograd ? Mr. Hatzel. Yes. Senator Steeling. In business there? Mr. Hatzel. Yes, sir; but I do not know in what capacity, as I never questioned them. Senator Nelson. Can you account for Col. Eobins failing to dis- tribute the supplies among the Americans or concealing that he had tliem? Mr. Hatzel. I do not know. Senator Nelson. Did he ever give any explanation ? Mr. Hatzel. When a man sees provisions with his own eyes and then is told to his face that they were not there, there must be some reason for doing it. Senator Nelson. Maybe the Bolsheviki needed them. Mr. Hatzel. Probably so. Senator Steeling. Did you knoAv of his visits to Lenine and Trotsky? Mr. Hatzel. I knew every time I asked where Col. Robins was I was told that he was with Lenine and Trotsky or some one else. I never saw him in the hotel once from December to May. He was talked about over there as being a Bolshevik sympathizer, though I myself knew nothing about it. Senator Nelson. Was that the talk among the American colony? Mr. Hatzel. Among the Ru^ssian people. Senator Nelson. They regarded him as a friend of the Bolshevik government ? Mr. Hatzel. Absolutely. Senator Nelson. Can you talk Russian ? Mr. Hatzel. Not excellently. But I talk Russian enough to get along in conversation. Senator Nelson. Are you understood ? Mr. Hatzel. Yes. sir. Senator Nelson. You could understand what they said ? Mr. Hatzel. Yes, sir. Senator Nelson. And the impression among the Russians over there was that he was a friend of the Bolshevik government? Mr. Hatzel. Positively. Mr. Humes. What evidence did you see in Petrograd, during the time you were there, of violence or terrorism ? Mr. Hatzel. Why, of violence — there was a party who was an ex- policeman who at the time of the revolution was not killed, but was put in prison. He managed to escape somehow or other and came 928 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. back. This gentleman was killed on the spot, and found feet upper- most in an ash can on the street without any word whatever. He was shot by a Red Guard from the window. A man living in the same house where I was passed the scene and told me about it half an hour after it occurred. Also in the night time many were executed on the streets. You would be walking along on one side and somebody would call t6 you, " Who are you ? What are you ? " If you said Bolshevik, or socialist, he might be just the opposite to what you said and shoot you. That occurred in a great many cases. In fact I myself crawled into a doorway on my knees three times, and right on the Nevski Prospect. That is their Broadway. Mr. Humes. Why? Mr. Hatzel. Probably party hatred. Mr. Humes. Because of an attack made upon you? Mr. Hatzel. Not an attack. But the question was thrown at me from across the street. You know there are no neutral people to the Bolsheviki. You are an enemy to the government if you are not a Bolshevik, no matter who and what you are. Mr. Humes. What about the newspapers over there? Mr. Hatzel. As far as I know in Petrograd there were quite a few papers suppressed at the time I was there, but afterwards were allowed to reopen and publish their newspapers. Mr. Humes. Under what control? Under the original control or under the control of the Bolsheviki ? Mr. Hatzel. That I do not know. Mr. Humes. Do you know how many papers were suppressed in Petrograd while you were there? Mr. Hatzel. There were three. Mr. Humes. Were you in any other part of Russia? Mr. Hatzeli Outside of Finland, no. Mr. Humes. I believe you said that you had a number of peasants who were working with you, employed at the Red Cross storehouse? Mr. Hatzel. Yes. Mr. Humes. From your talk with them what was their attitude? Were they Bolsheviki? Mr. Hatzel. No; emphatically no. These young girls had come up to Petrograd to get work and try to make some money and also earn a living for themselves. Of course they had heard probably all over Russia that in Petrograd they had much money and were paying large wages. We paid these girls 10 rubles a day, which was big money for the time. They came to Petrograd thinking they could get something to eat, not knowing the circumstances. Petro- grad at that time was practically starving. No doubt Dr. Simons mentioned the American dying in Petrograd of starvation. Mr. Humes. Did you ever see anyone dying of starvation? Mr. Hatzel. No ; but this gentleman had died. An old gentleman, I believe in control of the Danish Telegraph Co. in Russia, came to me in my home — I lived on the same street that he did — and asked me for supplies. He asked the Red Cross for a few things and was refused. Finally, when all the supplies were distributed he received his portion. But he could not be expected to live on that forever, BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 929 as he was an old man. Of course under the present conditions he probably weakened and died. That was all there was to it. Mr. Humes. What about the cattle and horses about Petrograd? Mr. Hatzel. Why, these drosky drivers had a union, and they had agents in different parts of the country where they could get their straw and hay and oats, and they complained at the prices of things and the scarce quantity. Mr. Humes. You left there in June, did you ? Mr. Hatzel. In May, 1916, and left Russia in June. Mr. Humes. Up to that time had the conditions got so that horses were dying on the streets ? Mr. Hatzel. Yes. In fact, the poor people when they would see horses drop in the streets, would go out and cut them up for meat. That was done right in sight of the Eed Cross warehouse, and seen by Capt. Magneson and myself. They were left there, not carted away to the incinerating plant and burned. They were left there. Mr. Humes. And the horse flesh was used by the people for food, was it ? Mr. Hatzel. Oh, yes. They have stores right there where they sell horse meat. Down at the slaughterhouse it was about all they were killing. It was the only kind of business they had, slaughtering horses for the consumption of the people. Mr. Humes. What knowledge have you as to the character of the forces that make up the Red Army. Do you know whether or not — • did you see any Chinese in the Red Army? Mr. Hatzel. No, I never saw any Chinese in the Red Arm}'. I know in Petrograd there are quite a few of them in the Red Army. Also that the Red Army is an army of workingmen and criminals. They pay them workingmen's wages. Thej' raised the workingman's wages to 250 rubles a week, and he is getting the same salary in the Eed Army. They were paying the workers so much that the factories had to shut down and the workers joined the Bolsheviki. Mr. Humes. During the time you were in contact with the work- men, while you were working in this factory, during your associa- tion with them, and after you went to work for the Red Cross, did you hear any discussion among them as to their attitude toward- the Bolsheviki ? Mr. Hatzel. All were against them ; that is, all of the shop dele- gates I came in contact with were against Bolshevism. They were of this Left party of the social revolutionists. Mr. Humes. What was their attitude ? Did they openly oppose the Bolsheviki or did they quietly submit ? Mr. Hatzel. It was practically murder and death to yourself if you opened your mouth against the Bolsheviki. There is no such thing as a trial there. They shoot first and ask questions later. If you open your mouth against the Bolsheviki and tell something about them you are liable to be shot or arrested right away. It has caused such a fear among the people that the people are practically sup- pressed. They can not say anything. Mr. Humes. Do you know whether or not any of these workmen that you have referred to as being opposed to the Bolsheviki joined the Red Army for the purpose of a livelihood? Mr. Hatzel. I know of two. 85723—19 59 930 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. You know of two that actually joined the Eed Army? Mr. Hatzel. Both of them had fathers or brothers killed in the war. They were practically alone in the world and they had to get something. There was no work and they had to live, so they joined the Eed Army. Mr. Humes. What factories were in actual operation in Petrograd when you left there ? Mr. Hatzel. There was the Eussian Baltic Works. Mr. Humes. What did they make? Mr. Hatzel. That was one of the gun factories, I believe, and also it made these cruisers for the navy. The Putiloif worked only about half the time. Mr. Humes. What did that factory make ? Mr. Hatzel. Ammunition. All the arsenals were closed. Mr. Humes. Were there any factories other than the munitions factories and the ordnance factories that Avere in operation? Mr. Hatzel. No. Mr. Humes. Were the textile mills still in operation when you left, or closed up ? Mr. Hatzel. Coates's mill was the only mill that was running. Mr. Humes. That is a textile mill? Mr. Hatzel. Yes; manufacturing thread. That is the only mill that was running. I believe later on that had to shut down, too, be- cause the workers demanded so much money it was impossible to> operate. Mr. Humes. But that was still in operation when you left? Mr. Hatzel. Yes. Mr. Humes. What do you know about the looting of houses in Petrograd? You told us of the disposition that was made of the loot. What do you know about the looting itself ? Mr. Hatzel. In the first place, I Avould like to state a fact that was seen by my own wife and myself. Coming home from a visit one night, we saw a young woman walking over the bridge and she was stopped by three Eed Guards, and her coat — a fur coat — and shoes and hat were taken away from her, and she had to walk three- quarters of a mile in her stocking feet to her home. They not only went to the homes to steal, they did it on the street. As one Ameri- can said, "They will steal the shirt off your back if you are not looking." Mr^ HtJMES. Did you ever see any houses looted? Mr. Hatzel. I know of several that were looted. A man by the name of Ellman came home one night and found the owner of the apartment crying. He asked, " Wliat is the trouble? " He rephed, " A dozen Bolsheviks under probably an ignorant officer, a man who could not read and write, came in here and stole all my silverware. Mr. Ellman said, " Can you give me a paper showing just about what you lost and the value?'" It came to something like 1,300 rubles, a "small amount. Eight next door to it was the place where the Sol- diers and Workers' Deputies were siting, and he took this paper there and he said, "Here is a house right next door to the council, and here are Eed Army men coming around and stealing silver. Here is a list of what thev took. I want it all back." They said, " We are BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 931 jiot responsible for what the Red Guards do. They were probably off duty." The goods were never recovered, so far as I know. Mr. Htjmes. The owner did not get them back? Mr. Hatzel. Never. But later on they probably were sold in these commission shops. One gentleman in Petrograd came home one night and his place had been robbed. He knew what was in the apartment. Among the things they took was a beautiful pair of opera glasses. About two weeks later he got back those opera glasses from one of these Bolshevik stores for about three times as much as he paid for them originally. Mr. Humes. How were those stores run, by the government itself ? Mr. Hatzel. Under the Eed Guard or by Red Guards men in the stores. Mr. Humes. You do not know the disposition of the funds — how they were handled? Mr. "Hatzel. No, I do not know. Mr. Humes. Are you aware of an organized system of vice that was established in Petrograd. I do not know whether you told me or some one else. Mr. Hatzel. An organized system of vice ? Mr. Humes. In connection with restaurants that were opened up. Mr. Hatzel. Yes, coffee houses, where they sell coffee and tea and the likes of that. These coffee houses were frequented by women of the disorderly class. Mr. Humes. Were those coffee houses private enterprises or gov- ernment institutions ? Mr. Hatzel. Private, but a majority of them were closed and opened up again and believed to be under the Bolshevik government. I myself, for a fact, could not say. Senator Steeling. Do you know the character of the houses after they were opened up ? Mr. Hatzel. Bad. They practically were bad before, too, but still more so under the Bolshevik regime. Mr. Humes. But you of your own knowledge do not know whether they were a government institution or simply a private enterprise? Mr. Hatzel. No. Mr. Humes. I misunderstood the statement that you made before, but I do not care to go into it if you do not know that it is under official sanction. ..Now, Mr. Hatzel, can you tell us any other instance of Bolshevik control as you saw it in Russia than you have related ? Mr. Hatzel. No ; only, the thing is that the Bolshevik government instead of building up is always destroying. That is the kind of con- trol they use ; such as on a railroad where they previously had oper- ated 20 trains for commuters in a day now they operate only five. Mr. Humes. Is not that because they have not the motive power and the transportation ? Mr. Hatzel. They have the motive power. Mr. Humes. It is out of commission, is it not? Mr. Hatzel. No, as you go along the road you see plenty of loco- motives standing on the tracks doing nothing, practically, except burning wood for the fun of it. That was on the Nikolai Railroad. As to other railroads I do not know. 932 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Humes. Do you know whether or not they had cars enough to make up trains to use those engines? Mr. Hatzel. Passenger cars? No, I do not think they had. Mr. Humes. They had freight cars ? Mr. Hatzel. It was a common scene to see a passenger of the first class riding in the baggage car. That was first class. If anybody could get a private car or a day coach, even, they were considered luckj^ Mr. Humes. I think that is all. Senator Nelson. That is all. We are very much obliged to you. (Thereupon, at 6 o'clock p. m. the subcommittee adjourned until tomorrow, Saturday, March 8, 1919, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.) BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. saturday, march 8, 1919. United States Senate, Subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary, Washington, D. G. The subcommittee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., in room 226, Senate Office Building, Senator Lee S. Overman presiding. Present: Senators Overman (chairman), King, Nelson, and Sterling. Senator Overman. The committee will come to order. I do not think Ambassador Francis has arrived, has he ? Mr. Humes. I have not seen him. Senator. Senator Overman. I do not think he has; I have not seen him. If you can go on with some other witness until he gets here, do so. Mr. Humes. Mr. Sayler. TESTIMONY OF MR. OLIVER M. SAYLER. (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) Mr. Humes. Where do you live ? Mr. Satlee. My home is Indianapolis. Mr. Humes. What is your business? Mr. Satler. My profession is that of a newspaper man. For six or seven years I have been dramatic editor of the Indianapolis News. Mr. Humes. Have you recently been in Russia, and if so, during what period of time ? Mr. Satuee. I left for Russia on the 27th of ISeptember, 191Y, from Vancouver; for Siberia, Russia. I arrived in Vladivostok the last week in October. I crossed Siberia by the Trans-Siberian Railroad; arrived in Moscow during the Bolshevik revolution ; was in Moscow until the 21st of February, 1918. On that day I went to Petrograd, Remained a few days, found the embassy packing to fly for safety because the Germans were coming; decided that the place would be interesting for a newspaper man and compartively safe with the mobility of one who simply carries what he has in his hand, and decided to stay, and did stay about 10 days after the embassy had gone to Vologda. I happened to know 8 or 10 other Americans who stayed, and there may have been more. On the 6th of March I took the train for Vologda to confer with Ambassador Francis, spent the day in that town, and returned to Moscow in time for the meeting of the Soviet congress, which met to ratify the treaty of Brest-Litovsk. I stayed in Moscow until the 24th of March, Sunday. On that day I started homeward by way of Siberia. For three or four days 933 934 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. we were en route to Samara. At Samara I turned south into the central part of Asia. I got off, stayed in Samara 10 days, waited for some civilized means of travel to turn up, to proceed eastward, and finally boarded an international sleeping car, under orders from the French Gov- ernment, in which several places had been reserved for Americans. On that car, hitched to train after train and to engine after engine for a space of three or four weeks I traveled eastward through Si- beria, seeing a great deal of the country because of the numerous and long stops at the large stations and the small stations. One day 1 spent in Irkutsk, the old capital of Siberia, and parts of other days in nearly all of the other cities and towns along the WB.J. When we reached the territory east of Lake Baikal we found that Col. Simoens had cut the main line of the Trans-Siberian Railroad. As you know, that runs through Chinese territory. Senator Xelson. That is Manchuria? Mr. Sailee. Yes; Chinese territory. Manchuria, literally; but it in under the jurisdiction of the Chinese Eepublic. Since the war, however, with the aid of hundreds of thousands of Austrian prisoners, a new strategic line of railroad has been con- structed in Eussian territory all the way to Vladivostok, following the course of the Amur River, about 50 miles to the north thereof We took this railroad. You would not call it a railroad. A little bit later when I go into the details of the demoralization of every- thing in the Russian scene, I want to tell you a little bit more of that railroad and its conditions. It required eight days instead of one tC' get around to the point whereby we could go down into Man- churia and out either through Korea or China. I myself chose China, and left Russian soil at Harbin, because Harbin was on the railroad and under Russian jurisdiction, although in Manchuria. This was on the 1st of May, 1918. Mr. Humes. Will you tell us what the conditions were that you found when you reached Moscow ? Mr. Satlee. May I explain in just a few words the conditions under which I went to Russia and the purpose for which I went to Russia? I think it will make plainer exactly what my testimony is worth, and possibly will avoid questions at a later point, when I am trying to develop some other issue. Senator Overman. We have not much time. We want to know exactly what you saw, and the conditions over there. Mr. Sayler. Very good. Let me make just this one statement, that I went independently of any organization, any corporation, or any individual. I went to Russia because I was interested in Russia and wanted to see what was going on. Therefore I took leave of absence, although maintaining my connection with my newspaper. Senator Xelson. You did not go, then, as the real representative of that newspaper ? Mr. Sayler. I did not. Senator Nelson. You went on your own hook? Mr. Sayler. I went on my own hook to see what was going on. Senator Nelson. What is the name of your newspaper? Mr. Sayler. The Indianapolis News. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 935 Senator Overman. Just go on and state the conditions. That is what we want to know. Mr. Humes. Proceed and state in your own way the conditions as you saw them and the things that you saw at the different points in Russia. Mr. Saylee. I want to insist in advance, Senators, that I am no Bolshevik. I am dead against everything they are doing and the way they are doing it. Senator Nelson. You need not mind that. We will judge of that by what you say. We will judge whether you are a Bolshevik by what you tell us. Mr. SArLER. Very good. I do feel, however, that the truth should be told about Russia. Senator Nelson. We v?ill determine that. You tell us what you know. Mr. Sayler. I should like to paint a picture with two sides, for you gentlemen. Senator Nelson. No; I object to that. Let this witness give us fa,cts — what he knows. Senator Overman. Tell us what you saw. Mr. Sayler. I want to include those facts in these two categories. Senator Overman. We are not taking pictures. We want facts. Senator Nelson. This is not a movie show. Mr. Sayler. I understand that, gentlemen. I simply want to group these facts under two heads; that is all, if I may state it in that way. Senator Overman. Ambassador Francis wants to be heard now. Mr. Sayler. I am perfectly willing. Senator Overman. So please stand aside. TESTIMONY OF ME, DAVID R. FRANCIS. (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) Senator Overman. I understand you want to be heard now, ,so that you can get away? Mr. Francis. Yes. Shall I go ahead and make my statement? Senator Overman. Yes. You are the Ambassador from this coun- try to Russia ? Mr. Francis. Yes; I am the ambassador from this country to Rus- sia and have been since March, 1916. My commission bears date March 9, 1916. I was not an applicant for the ambassadorship, and consequently was greatly surprised when I was tendered it. I came to Washington and, after conference with the State Department, learned that they wished me to go to Russia in order to negotiate a commercial treaty, our previous commercial treaty having been revoked or abrogated, or, as they call it over there, denounced, by Mr. Taft, to take effect the 31st of December, 1912. I accepted the tender of the ambassadorship and arrived in Petro- grad on the 28th of April. Senator Overman. 1916? Mr. Francis. 1916. The man who had been acting as charge, Mr. Frederick Morris Dearing, immediately presented me to the minister of foreign affairs, Mr. Sazonoff. I told Mr. Sazonoff that I wished 936 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. to negotiate a commercial treaty, and had come for that purpose. He threw up his hands and said, " No more treaties until our rela- tions with our allies are defined and determined." I remarked that if I had known that that was their policy I would not have come. He said he regretted it. About a week after that I was presented to the Emperor, and to the Empress immediately after I was presented to the Emperor, at the Tsarskoe-Selo Palace, which is about 20 miles out of Petrograd. I did not make any more acquaintances with the royal family and never met any of the royal family except the Emperor and Empress, except the Grand Duke Boris, whom I met at an entertainment at the house of an Ameiican lady. Three or four weeks after that the papers published a treaty be- tween Kussia and Japan, which had been negotiated by Sazonoff and Motono, the Japanese ambassador at Petrograd, who was the dean of the diplomatic corps. I saw Sazonoff immediately after the publication of that treaty and I said, " I thought you were not nego- tiating any more treaties." He said, " Oh, I meant commercial treaties." I said, " You did not say that to me." About three weeks after that time I went to the foreign office again — having gone frequently in the meantime, but about three weeks after that I went to the foreign office again — ^to bid Sazonoff good- bye, because he was going away on a two weeks' leave up into Fin- land. He said he was not well. On the morning of the 10th of July, our calendar, I opened a newspaper and saw that the Emperor had accepted Sazonoff's resig- nation. In other words, that was just the imperial way of removing him. I saw his resignation in the paper. Motono was afterwards recalled to Japan and made minister of foreign affairs. He was made a viscount; btit there was no joy, no demonstration in Petro- grad or in Russia over this treaty. Germany had a commercial treaty with Russia which she de- manded during the Russo-Japanese War, and which expired by limitation in 1916. It gave Germany great advantages, great com- mercial advantages, and there was decided opposition to its renewal. I have always thought that renewing that treaty was one of the causes that induced Germany to declare war against Russia. I found that Germany already had such a foothold in Russia that I believe if the war had been postponed five years it would have been impossible to dislodge her. German spies permeated every depart- ment of the Imperial Government and did not relieve the military officers from espionage. The Grand Duke Nicholas, whom I never met, after he left office said that the German spies were so thick in his headquarters that he had to take extraordinary precautions to prevent his orders from being communicated to the Germans. Senator Overman. It has been stated that all the Russian plants, all the great industries in Russia, were superintended by Germans. Mr. Francis. The Germans controlled two or three banks in Petrograd. The Deutsche Bank owned a majority of the stock of the Russian Bank of Foreign Trade, and a majority of the stock of the International Bank was reported to be owned by them. I was told that by people who I thought knew. The Germans controlled all the commercial industries in Russia, and were not dispossessed of BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. \)6i that control at the beginning of the war. The war, as you Imow, had been progressing over 18 months when I arrived there, having begun the 1st of August, 1914. Under the Empire, and until we severed diplomatic relations with Germany, I, as American ambassador, represented German interests in Eussia, and I also represented Austrian interests, and as such repre- sentative I had supervisory care of a million and a half of war prisoners in prison camps throughout Russia. The Eussian Govern- ment fed those men and clothed them and housed them; but there were great complaints, and I sent inspectors around to those prison camps and had reports made to me. Of those million and a half of nrisoners there were at no time over 250,000 of them Germans. The remainder, a million and a quarter, were Austrians. I had direct charge of 350,000 aliens who were interned. By " in- terned " I mean that they were sent from their homes and confined to provinces and told to make their living the best way they could. Of those 350,000, 300,000 were Germans and not over 50,000 were Austrians. The Germans had control of the sugar interests. They had control of the electric power plants at Moscow and at Petrograd and at Baku. They had absolute control of all the glass manufacturing throughout Eussia^ and most of the sales of manufactured products that America made to Russia had been made through Germany. American agents had located themselves in Berlin and in German towns; and, as I say, if this war had been postponed five years I think Germany would have had such a foothold in Russia that it would have been impossible to dislodge her. I found that state of affairs existing when I arrived there. I not only found that state of affairs existing, but I found suspicion existing as to the loyalty of the empress. I found a very deplorable state of affairs. (Consequently, I was delighted, or I might say, pleased, when the first revolution took place. It was on our 12th of March. There had been some desultory firing before, but on the 12th of March a regiment, whose barracks were within two blocks of the American Embassy, mutinied and killed their colonel. The second division of the American Embassy, or the relief division, was quartered in the Austrian Embassy, and the man in charge of that division was the same man who is in charge of the Russian bureau in the State Department, Mr. Basil Miles. He phoned me that they had overrun the embassy; that some officers who were in the adjoin- ing building, which was used for an arsenal, I think, had come into the building, and he said that he wanted a guard there. That was the beginning of the revolution. I phoned to the foreign office to send a guard down to the Austrian Embassy to protect the second division of the American Embassy, and the reply was that it would be sent immediately, but it never was sent. There was desultory firing through the streets. There was a barricade put up at Serguisky and Litainy, and regiments that were called upon to suppress these revo- lutionists immediately took the side of the revolutionaries. That was Monday, the 12th of March. The regiments came in from the front, but they were met by regiments of the revolutionary party at the station, and turned revolutionists. I was very much pleased with that. I was tired of the empire, and I thought the Eussian people were tired of it. '938 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. On Thursday, the 15th of March, the Emperor abdicated, and the -Duma, which the Emperor had attempted to prorogue, remained in its building, and appointed a committee that named a provisional gov- ernment of seven or nine men. The provisional government was com- posed of Prince Lvoff, there was Prof.' Miliukov, who was the min- ister of foreigii affairs, Gutchkov, who was minister of war, Terest- • chenko, who was minister of finance, and Kerensky, minister of jus- tice. I do not recall at the moment the names of the other ministers. Senator Sterling. Kodzianko was one? Mr. Francis. No ; he was not. He was chairman of the committee that appointed the ministers. I heard of the Emperor's abdication soon after it occurred, namely, on the 15th of March, which was Thursday. I called on Eodzianko on the following Sunday, and after talking with him some minutes, or half an hour, he referred me to Miliukov. I went out to ascertain the principles of that government and its prospective stability. Kodzianko told me it had come to stay. I saw Miliukov, and Miliukov said it had come to stay. I thereupon returned to my embassy. This was on the 18th of March. I sent in • cipher a 200- word cable to the Government here recommending thai I be permitted to recognize the provisional government, because it was founded on correct principles, it was just such a government as ■ ours was, and it only was appointed to administer affairs during the period that might elapse between its installation and a meeting of the constituent assembly to be elected by the entire people. I further recommended to my Government that I thought it would be politic for me to be the first to recognize the provisional government. We had not entered into the war then, you Iniow. We had severed ■ diplomatic relations with Germany, but not with Austria. This cable was received by the State Department on the 20th of March. I re- ceived a reply on the 22d of March saying that I could recognize the government. I immediately assembled my staff, including those who were entitled to wear uniforms — and those were only the military : and naval attaches and their staffs — and I went up to the Marensky palace, where the ministry was assembled, at 4 o'clock that after- noon. I recognized it with all the formality that I could command, and received a reply through Miliukov, minister of foreign affairs, which reply indicated appreciation. I knew Miliukov personally and I knew Kodzianko personally, and I was introduced there to Kerensky and the other ministers. That was the 22d of March. It was only 15 days after that that we entered the war, on the 6th of April, 1917, whereupon I received cables from the State Department to cease to represent Austrian interests. I had received instructions from the State Department to cease to represent German interests when we severed diplomatic relations with_ Ger- many, which I think was on the 4th of February, 1917. I immediately established close official and personal relations with the provisional government and maintained them during the following eight months, but I did not establish any relations whatever with the Bolshevik government, which oame into power on the 7th of November, 1917. In fact, I recommended against it during the whole time. I continued to remain in Petrograd from the 7th of November until the 27th of the following February, 1918. I had no direct relations whatever with the Bolshevik or soviet government during that time, and, as BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 939 I said, recommended to mj^ Government to await the assembling or convening of the constituent assembly, which was fixed for the 27th of November. It had been fixed, I think, by the provisional govern- ment. Senator Nelson. Of Kerensliy? Mr. Francis. Of Kerensky. It was postponed until some day in December. When the date rolled around the Bolsheviki were in power and the ministry all imprisoned in the fortress of Peter and Paul except Kerensky, who had escaped from Petrograd in the meantime. Kerensky had become the president of the council of min- isters. He first differed with Miliukov and put Miliukov out of the ministry of foreign affairs, whereupon Terestchenko was made min- ister of foreign affairs. The first act of demoralization under the provisional government was the issuing of the General Army Order No. 1. Gutchkov as minister of war was held responsible for that order, but he maintains up to this time that it was issued without his knowledge. It was is- sued by the soviet. That order demoted all of the officers to the rank of soldiers and permitted the soldiers to elect their officers by a vote. Senator Nelson. Was that of the Kerensky government ? Mr. Francis. That was of the Kerensky government; and it was issued under Gutchkov. Some days after, Miliukov resigned. Mil- iukov was forced out of the cabinet because Kerensky differed with him. Kerensky had become very popular. He is a great orator. He had rescued a man from a mob, and said that as long as he was min- ister of justice no man should be punished without a fair trial. That made him exceedingly popular, and deservedly so, because such a state of affairs had not prevailed in Russia for 100 years or for cen- turies. I found when I went there that the revolutionists who were nomi- nally opposed to the government were in the pay of the Imperial Government as spies, a number of them. They were playing a two- faced game. Miliukov and Kerensky differed, and Miliukov re- signed. I went to Miliukov when the demonstrations began against him, and I said, " These demonstrations should not be permitted." He iaid his friends had waited upon him and had suggested a counter demonstration. I said, " Did you permit it ? You should have done so." He said, " No; I did not permit it; I did not sanction it." He said further, " I am to speak at Marensky Palace to-night," and not- withstanding that he withheld his consent from a demonstration of his friends, his friends were in a majority there. He went back to the foreign office at 12 or 1 o'clock at night, and he had an ovation there and made a speech there. So I concluded that Miliukov was very well established in his office — was secure. Senator Steeling. Could you say just what were the points of difference between Miliukov and Kerensky in matters of policy? Mr. Francis. Yes. I did not dwell upon that because I did not want to take the time of the committee. Miliukov was the leader of the cadets. We would have called them conservative Democrats. Kerensky was a leading socialist. Miliukov made public a secret treaty that Eussia had made with France and Italy and England whereby those three countries had agreed to turn over Constantinople 940 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. and the Dardanelles to Russia, for which she had been fighting foi centuries. Miliukov announced that such a treaty was in existence. Kerensky immediately took issue with that and said that Russia did not want to observe such treaties as that ; that the Dardanelles should be free to the commerce of all nations, and Miliukov took the oppo- site stand. You know, they had differed very radically. They had both been leading members of the Duma, and they had differed very radically. Miliukov resigned. Terestchenko was made minister of foreign affairs, and some other man, whose name I do not recall, was made minister of finance. I heard about two weeks after that — ^I think it was two weeks — ^that Gutchkov had resigned also. I looked for him all day. I sent for him, telephoned for him, but could not find him. My object in seeking an interview was to tell him that it was cowardly to resign ; that he could not afford to desert his col- leagues in the hour when they needed him. I saw from the papers the next morning, being unable to find Gutchkov, that he had re- signed; that his resignation had been accepted; and that Kerensky had been appointed minister of war. Now, Kerensky was a lawyer. He did not know anything about the department that he was called upon to preside over. One of the first orders that he issued was a decree abolishing the death penalty in the army. That completed the demoralization of the army. Not- withstanding that, an uprising of the Bolsheviki on the 3d and 4th of July, which was our 16th and 17th of July, was suppressed. I saw some of the demonstration. The American Embassy was located in the hea,rt of the city, and there were barracks all around there. There is Avhere Kerensky made his mistake. He did not imprison Lenine and Trotsky and try them for treason, as he should have done. That was on the 3d 'and 4th of July — the night of the 4th or the night of the 3d, I forget which. Lenine is the brains of this whole mo\ement. He has a great intellect. He is a fanatic and I think has sincere convictions. I could not say the same about Trotsky. I think Trotsky is an adventurer. He has great ability. He has more executive ability than Lenine, but when they have differed, Lenine has always been able to dominate Trotsky. They kept in hiding until the 7th of November. An outbreak had been prophesied for the 2d of November, but it did not take place. I was at the foreign office on the 7th of November, and when I left the minister of foreign affairs I said, " Whose soldiers are those out there ? " He replied, " They are our soldiers. I would not be surprised if we had an outbreak to-night." I said, " Can you suppress it? " He said, " I think so." I saicl, " I hope it will occur, if you can suppress it." Senator Steeling. Who then was minister of foreign affairs ? Mr. Francis. Terestchenko Avas minister of foreign affairs. I said, " I hope it will take place, if you can suppress it." He said, " I hope it will take place, whether we can suppress it or not, be- cause I am tired of this uncertainty." This provisional government liad been threatened all the time. There is as much difference between the Bolshevik revolution and the provisional government as there was between the provisional government and the Imperial Government. The provisional gov- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 941 emment administered affairs from the 12th of March, the begin- ning of the revolution, or the 15th of March, when the ministers were appointed, until the night of the 7th of November, when they were captured in tlae Winter Palace and all imprisoned in Peter and Paul fortress. The Korniloff affair had taken place in the meantime, but you are not interested in that here. Senator King. Would you say, generally speaking, that the Keren- sky government atltempted to prosecute the war as vigorously as it could under the circumstances, and to be true to the allies ? Mr. Francis. I think so, because you know the orders that I have mentioned, No. 1 and Kerensky's order abolishing the death pen- alty, had a demoralizing effect upon the army. I remember that on one occasion the ambassadors from Great Britain, France, and Italy went to see Kerensky, and they said that he was not prosecut- ing' the war with sufficient vigor. He called upon me later to show his approval of my not joining with them in suggesting to him that he should put more vim into the prosecution of the war, be- cause he said they knew he was doing all in his power up to that time. I have forgotten whether that was before or after he had been down to address the troops, and ordered an advance, and in- spired an advance. That was attended with more or less success too, but these Bolsheviks were always trying to undermine the Kerensky government. They were assisted by the monarchists — by the Black Hundred — the Bolsheviks were. Senator Nelson. And the Black Hundred was who ? Mr. Francis. The Black Hundred was an organization that was for the protection of the dynasty. Senator Nelson. Of the Czar? Mr. Francis. Of the Czar. They were sympathizing with the Bolsheviks because they thought the Bolsheviks would rule tempo- rarily, if at all, and then it would be followed by a monarchy. They were never in favor of the provisional government, all the members of which were patriots and able men. You must remember that Eussia, in addition to occupying one-seventh of the dry land of the earth, has 180,000,000 people, about 90 per cent of whom are unedu- cated, and the other 10 per cent of whom are overeducated. There is just that wide difference between them. There is a middle class, called the intelligentsia, and the Bolsheviks have been attempting to wipe out the bourgeoisie and the intelligentsia. Senator King. If you will pardon me, Mr. Ambassador, generally speaking, then, you would say that the Kerensky government stood for law and order and for the establishment of a democratic form of government something like our own ? Mr. Francis. Exactly. Senator King. And that it was manned by patriots who earnestly •nought the freedom of the people and the establishment of law and order and a stable democratic form of government; and that that government, so long as it was in power, attempted to do all that it could in the prosecution of the war and to stand by the side of the allies in fighting the central powers ? Mr. Francis. I think so. Senator King. That while they were engaged in that laudable and proper effort the Bolsheviks, led by Lenine and Trotsky and others, 942 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. were attempting to vmdermine them, primarily for the purpose of getting- control and establishing a proletariat dictatorship and sec- ondarily for the purpose of betraying the cause of the allies and net- ting Russia out of the war ? Mr. Francis. Exactly. I wish to say here that I think that Leuine was a German agent from the beginning. They would never have permitted him to come through Germany if they had not thought or loiown they could use him. He disbursed money very liberally. Lenine, however, was not so opposed to Germany as he was in favor of promoting a world-wide social revolution. I wired the depart- ment that I thought that was his object in the beginning. He would have taken British money, American money, and French money and used it to promote this objective of his. He told a man who asked what he was doing in Russia that he was trying an experiment in government on the Russian people. He is a sincere man, with sincere convictions, I think. I do not think he is right by a good deal, be- cause later, when his power was tottering and could not be niaintained in any other way, he encouraged or permitted the reign of terror that is now prevailing in Russia. Coming now to the Brest-Litovsk peace, in the first negotiations Russia was represented by Trotskj'. I think they took place some time in January or February. Senator Xelson. February, I think. Mr. Francis. February, 1918. Senator Nelson. Yes. Mr. Francis. Trotsky gained a great deal of credit. He had the world for an audience, and he was very able. When Gen. Hoff- man notified him and his colleagues that he would not prolong those negotiations more than two or three days further and said, " You will have to say definitely whether you will accept these terms or not," Trotsky made that dramatic stand of his, in which he said : '' We decline to sign those severe peace terms, but Russia will fight no more." Well, the Germans were stunned by that. Trotsky returned to Petrograd, and four or five days afterwards the Germans aimounced that they were marching on Petrograd and Moscow. Trotsky re- plied to them that they could not move without violating the terms of the armistice. Their reply was, continuing to move their armies, " You have already terminated the armistice by refusing to sign the peace terms." The German Army advanced so near Petrograd that I left there. I had had authority from my government for four weeks to leave Petrograd whenever my judgment so dictated, and all my colleagues had. I had become dean of the diplomatic corps there, by the departure of Sir George Buchanan about the first of January, 1918. We were meeting in the American Embassy every day — ^not all of the allied chiefs, but the British and the French and the Italian and the Japanese ambassadors and myself and we all decided to leave Petrograd. I said to them : '' I am not going to leave Russia." " Where are you going?" I said: "I am going to Vologda." "What do you know about Vologda ? " I said : " Not a thing, except that it is the junction of the Trans-Siberian Railway and the Moscow-Archangel BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 943- Eailway." "' Well, if it is unsafe there, what are you going to do ? " I said : " I am going east to Viatka, which is 600 miles east, and if it is unsafe there I am going to Perm, and if it is unsafe there I am going to Irkutsk, and if it is unsafe there I am going to Chita, and if it is unsafe there I am going to Vladivostok, where I know I will be protected by an American man-of-war — the Brooklyn — under Admiral Knight " ; and I appealed to them to go with me. I said : " You ought not to leave Russia now." But they declined to go, ex- cept the Japanese Embassy and the Chinese legation, and they only stayed at Vologda two or three days. That was on their way home. The other missions were all attempting to get back to their respec- tive governments. The British and the French and the Italians and the Belgians and the Serbians and the Portuguese and the Greeks attempted to get out through Finland, and they got into the midst of that civil war there, and they lived on trains for six weeks, when they joined me at Vologda, except the British Embassy, which got through the lines, and it came to Vologda on the 7th of July follow- ing. It was sent back there. The Japanese and the Chinese went on east after staying at Vologda two or three days, and I remained at Vologda five months, notwithstanding I was appealed to and invited several times by the central soviet at Moscow to make my head- quarters there. They said that they would give us all villas. But I am anticipating. When the first Brest-Litovsk peace nego- tiations were terminated, and the German army began to move on Petrograd and Moscow, the soviet government said they wanted another meeting to negotiate peace terms. Trotsky did not go that time, but he sent Tchitcherin, and the Germans forced upon the: Eussians even severer peace terms at the second conference at Brest- Litovsk than they had at the first. Senator King. Of course, in the meantime the Russians, under Lenine and Trotsky, had ceased to be a military force ? Mr. Feanois. Exactly. Senator King. They had withdrawn from any military opera- ' tions, and betrayed the allies to that extent? Mr. Francis. Exactly; they betrayed the allies. When I went there, there was an army enlisted of 12,000,000 men. It was in- creased to 16,000,000 before the revolution, and there was a call for 3,000,000 additional, which had not matured when the Bolshevik revolution took place. Of those 16,000,000 men, 2,000,000 had been captured, and 2,000,000 had been killed and died from disease, so it, reduced the army to about 12,000,000 men, which is an immense' army. No army was ever organized that approached it before. We , were all talking about demobilization when the war ended ; but this: army demobilized itself. It melted away like snow before a summer sun.' When the second Brest-Litovsk peace was signed, these sol- diers left their regiments. They would get on a train, and the train would start before they would ask where it was going. They sold their arms for a pittance; they threw their arms away, some of them, and some of them took their arms home with them. Senator King. Was that in pursuance of the plan of Lenine and Trotsky to destroy the army ? Mr. Francis. I think it was. 944 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. As late as June, when I went to Petrograd from Vologda, when I came back the roofs of the cars were filled with soldiers and the trucks under the cars and the platforms were crowded with soldiers. I went to Moscow in May. to the funeral of our consul general, who died very suddenly down there. The soviet government attempted to communicate with me there, and I had received a subordinate who called on me, but I had no official relations with them. In the meantime I had issued a proclamation or an address to the -Russian people on the 17th of March, which was the day that the Brest-Litovsk peace treaty was ratified by the all-Eussiaii congress of Soviets at Moscow. I appealed to the Eussian people to organize and repel the invader from their borders. I said that we Ameri- cans and my Government still considered the Russian people our allies; that we were not going to observe that peace, and I did not think any of the other allies were. I had that put in the Russian papers, translated into Russian; and about four days after that Kuehlmann, the minister of foreign affairs at that time, demanded of the soviet government that I be sent out of Russia. They said: " He is not only violating the laws of neutrality, but he has issued an address to the Russian people that is a virtual call to arms." The soviet government said nothing to me about it. I was not in communication with them at that time, but they replied that I had not said any more than the President had said in his address to the Russian people through this all-Russian soviet congress at Moscow. I have that telegram with me if you want to enter it on your records. Senator Overman. We should like to have it put in the record, because there has been some dispute about it. Mr. Francis. I will give it to you. It was a public matter over there. I will also give you my address to the Russian people. I should like to have that put in the record. That was on the I7th of March. I had only been at Vologda then about 18 days. I arrived at Vologda the 28th of February, I think. I had been there 18 days when I issued this address to the Russian people. I issued another address on the 4th of July, 1918. I had had interviews before that, showing the progress that America was making toward preparedness and trying to convince the Rus- sian people that the war would end in defeat for Germany, and consequently they should not tie up with the losing cause; but on the 4th of July I issued an address to the Russian people which re- counted the causes for the war, I think. I have not a copy of that. I suppose it is in the department; but that elicited another demand of Germany on the central soviet at Moscow for my deportation. The central soviet did not say anything to me at that time about it nor have they ever mentioned it since. I remained at Vologda. Senator Sterling. Ambassador Francis, did they reply to it in any way through the newspapers or otherwise? Mr. Francis. They replied to the first demand by saying that I had said nothing more than the President had said, and by asking a question of the German Government, which was why they had vio- lated the terms of the treaty in advancing into the Ukraine. Ger- many never observed any of the terms of that treaty that it was to her interest to violate. She continued to advance, and there were BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 945 some_ secret treaties of an economic character between Germany and Russia. Senator Nelson. Ambassador Francis, will you allow me to inter- rupt you a minute? You called attention a while ago to the fact that under the Kerensky government there had been held an election for a constituent assembly. Mr. Feancis. I am going to get back to that. Senator Nelson. All right. I want to know what became of that constituent assembly. Mr. Francis. I thank you, Senator, for reminding me of that. The convening of that constituent assembly was first fixed for the 27th of November, but it was postponed to some day in December. The day before it was to meet all of the cadet members who were in Petrograd were arrested as counter-revolutionaries. Some of them, anticipating arrest, had not come. Miliukov and Rodzianko and Kerensky had not come to Petrograd to the meeting of this con- stituent assembly. Consequently, the Bolshevik government said that it would not permit that constituent assembly to convene until ■ Senator Nelson. Did they not surround the building in which they were with the red guards ? Mr. Francis. Later they did that. They postponed the meeting then from this day in December until the 19th of January, 1918, and said that they would not permit it to organize if there were not 400 members present. There were 400 members present, and there was a great demonstration in Petrograd on the part of the people to manifest their joy on the assembling of a constituent assembly. The Bolsheviki were in the minority there; notwithstanding the cadets had not come, and some of the social revolutionists of the right had not attended, there were 423 members, I think, there. I can give you the exact number of members there. They had an election for officers. The Bolsheviki withdrew. They withdrew to the extent of 140 members, and still the remainder tried to organize. They elected Tchernoff presiding officer, and his opponent was a woman, Spirodonova, who was a left social revolutionist, and, when last heard from, was imprisoned by the Bolsheviki. They organized. Tchernoff made a speech, and there were several speeches made. They passed a decree, passed several decrees, when a drunken sailor went in and said: "I am tired of this business. We want to go to bed." This was about 3 or 4 o'clock in the morn- ing. " We will give you 10 minutes more." I do not say they said 10 minutes, but a few minutes more. Well, Bolshevik soldiers were around the corridors and in the aisles of the convention. Senator King. Armed? Mr. Francis. Armed. So they adjourned about 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning until 11 o'clock the next day, I think. It was a fixed hour the next day. but the next day the Bolshevik government took charge of this duma hall, and did not admit any of the members, and consequently broke up the constituent assembly. Senator Nelson. Right there, Mr. Francis, has the Bolshevik gov- ernment, since that time, ever attempted to have a constituent as- sembly elected or meet? Mr. Francis. No, sir. They have never since that time had a con- stituent assembly, or called an election for a constituent assembly. 85723—19 60 946 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. The soviet is the name of a form of government, and Bolshevism is the name of a party, but they are used as synonymous terms all out- side of Russia. One basic principle of the soviet government is that they do not allow a man to vote or a woman to vote — they have woman suffrage over there, you know — who employs another human being. Senator King. They have not permitted any voting at all since the distatorship of Lenine and Trotsky, have they? They have super- imposed themselves and their government upon that part of Russia where they have exercised military power? Mr. Francis. Well, they have elected Soviets, you know — local Soviets. Senator King. I was speaking of the general government. Mr. Francis. Oh, the general government? No; there has been no election whatever since. Senator King. That is to say, Lenine and Trotsky, and those who are in control of the Bolshevik government, are not there as the result of a general election? Mr. Francis. No; no. They are there as usurpers. Senator King. By force and terror? Mr. Francis. I do not think they represent more than 10 per cent of the Russians. Senator Overman. Of the whole 180,000,000 ? Mr. Francis. Of the whole 180,000,000. Senator King. The constituent assembly wliich they prevented from meeting Avas a truly representative body, elected by the people? Mr. Francis. Exacth^ : as representative as it was possible to have at that time. Senator King. But elected, of course, under the Kerensky govern- ment? Mr. Francis. Well, elected under regulations framed and promul- gated by the Kerensky government. Senator King. Yes. Mr. Francis. I think they were elected before the Bolshevik revo- lution. Senator Nelson. Oh, yes; you are clear about that. They were elected before that. Mr. Francis. They were elected before that : yes. Senator Nelson. Before the Bolshevik revolution ; before the 7th of November. Mr. Francis. I thought the Kerensky government postponed the calling of the constituent assembly too long. They were in power six months, or at least five months, before they called the election. Kerensky moved into the Winter Palace, you know, and slept in the bed of Alexander III. Senator King. Generally speaking, Mr. Ambassador, what would you say as to what was being done, during that period when the Kerensky government was a power, by the Bolsheviki — by the revo- lutionary class led by Lenine and Trotsky ? Mr. Francis. I think they were planning all the time to overturn that government and to take the administration of aifairs into their own hands. Lenine was disbursing money freely. I said that I be- lieved Lenine was a German agent. Subsequent developments have contirmed me in that belief. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 947 Senator King. You believe that Germany furnished him money for debauching his own country and to aid in betraying the allied cause ? Mr. Francis. Exactly; I think she did. The poisoned chalice is being connnended to Germany's own lips now. Senator King. What was the first thing that Lenine and' Trotsky did, after getting control, toward the demobilization of the troojas, and what announcement did they make as to the withdrawal of Eussia from military operations? Mr. Fbancis. Well, after the negotiation of the Brest-Lito\sk peace, and the signing thereof, the army was permitted to go home. They were promised peace; they were promised division of prop- erty, division of lands Senator Overman. And bread. Senator Xelson. Bread and peace and land. Mr. Francis. Bread and peace and land. One Russian land- owner was telling me that they attempted to divide his herd of blooded cattle, and they came across a very fine bull that they could not agree upon as to which one should have it, so they killed the bull and divided the carcass. Well, I remained at Vologda, as I said, until the 25th of July, after Mirbach was killed," which was on the 6th of July. Tchit- cherin, about four or five days after that — he was the minister of for- eign affairs of the central soviet in Moscow — sent me a telegram, addressing me as dean of the diplomatic corps, and said, " Vologda is unsafe. We invite you to come to Moscow, where we can give every man a villa. I am sending Radek to Vologda to execute the invita- tion."' It was in English and he used the word " execute." My colleagues all considered it an order to come to Moscow from Vologda. I Avas disposed to consider it an invitation, and I i^rejoared a reply to it, " We decline to come to Moscow. We consider Vologda perfectly safe, because we do not fear the Russian people, whom we have always befriended, and we do not fear the allies, of course. If your communication is meant for an order instead of an invita- tion, we consider it offensive." I hoped by that telegram to save myself from the visit of Radek, but he appeared the next day. The direct communication of the rails between Vologda and Moscow had been cut by an uprising at Yaroslav, so they had to go around via Petrograd. Radek got there the next day, and I was having a meeting, in the American Embassy, of the allied chiefs. I tried to get them to go in to see him, but they would not go. They said that that was the prerogative and duty of the dean of the corps. So I went in and had a talk with him of about an hour. He was in my reception room. I forgot to tell you that the municipal authorities of Vologda had given me a house for the American Embassy. It was the house of a commercial club. It was the most imposing structure in the town. They were very much complimented by my stopping there — by the American Embassy stopping there-^and they felt deeply compli- mented when all of the other missions who had tried to get out through Finland joined me. It was about five months that I had stopped there. Senator Nelson. That town was not under the control of the Bolsheviki ? 948 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Francis. Well; the Bolshevilri controlled it the last two months or three months that we were there. Senator Nelson. But at that time? Mr. Francis. At that time I spoke to the mayor and asked him if he was a Bolshevik, and he said he was not a Bolshevik, and that he was authorized by the municipal assembly, as we called it, to invite us to remain there, and that we would be protected; and he con- tinued to administer affairs until we left there. But the local soviet was disposed to dispute his authority some time before we left. The French ambassador, whom I met in Paris — Jusserand — said, " You discovered Vologda ; you put it on the map and made it the diplo- matic center of Russia for five months." It was true. The others joined me there; but when Eadik came up on the 12th of July — I think it was — he argued with me about going down. He was accom- panied by an interpreter who was named Arthur Kansome. He was the correspondent of the Manchester Guardian, and I think his letters have been published in the New York Times, too. I called in my stenographer, Mr. Johnston, who was also my private secre- tary, and he took down the conversation. I told Radek, after listen- ing to his conversation, that we had decided to refuse the invitation. He said, " I will station guards around all of your embassies " — ^they called all our legations embassies — " and no one will be permitted to go in or out without a passport." I said, " We are virtually pris- oners, then." " No," he said, " you are not virtually prisoners. You can go in and out, and the chiefs can all go in and out; but when you desire anybody to come in here you will have to tell the local soviet the name of the man and they will give him a pass to enter through your guards." The guards came there the next morning, or that same evening. I have forgotten whether they came that evening or the next morn- ing. But the guards did not disturb us, because they were hungry, and we gave them food ; so they were very accommodating to us. The morning of the 23d of July, after midnight, I received an- other telegram from Tchitcherin: "Again we tell you Vologda is unsafe. Another clay may be too late. Again we invite you to Moscow." After consulting my colleagues and finding them of the same mind — I had a fear that they wanted to hold us as hostages down there, or at any rate to play us against the German and Austrian representatives at Moscow — I replied to him in six words : " We have determined to take your advice and quit Vologda." We had planned to go to Archangel. I did not state in the tele- gram where we proposed to go. I had had a special train on the Vologda track for five months, and my transportation man had told me that the station master, with whom we made friends, would fur- nish him a locomotive on an hour's notice to take that train on any road that we wished that had tracks in the Vologda station. I sent for him after telling my colleagues to send their baggage down to the train before 6 o'clock and that the train would leave at 8._ I called in this transportaion man and I said, " You told me sometime ago that this station man promised you a locomotive for this train. I said, "I want that locomotive attached to this train to-night at half past 7, and I want it to leave at 8." BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 949 He left me and came back in an hour and said that the station man had left on a vacation and that the man he had left in charge said that he could not get a locomotive without submitting the re- quest to Moscow, and Tchitcherin had given orders to the director of locomotive power that he must not put a locomotive on this train. I told him to submit it to Moscow, and they submitted it, and the reply was, " Who wishes the locomotive ? " I replied to this — my transportation man was speaking and I replied to them — " The Ameri- can ambassador." "Where does he wish to go?" I replied, "To Archangel." Then he sent me a telegram, "Archangel is not a fit place for ambas- sadors to live. Going to Archangel means leaving Russia. Again we invite you to Moscow." Well, I replied to him that I would not leave Russia unless com- pelled to do so by force, and then my absence would be temporary. I ended the telegram: "Again we request the locomotive." Well, we had slept on the train in the station — all the diplomatic corps — the preceding night, and the locomotive was furnished us about 1 o'clock in the morning on the 25th of July. We had intended to leave on the 23d of July, you know, but we did not leave until the 24:th, and it was past midnight when we left. We went up to Archangel, and on arriving at Archangel we were met by a delegation from the local soviet, accompanied by a repre- sentative of the Moscow soviet who pointed to a boat on the Dvina Eiver and said, "There is the boat. We are instructed to put you on that boat, and direct your attention to that boat and to say that you can use the boat to go where you wish." I said, " We refuse to go on that boat." "Why? " "Well," I said, "we do not want to leave Russia until we can communicate with our Government, with which cable communication has been severed for three weeks." "Well," they said, "we have no other orders." We were 140 in number, counting attaches and domestics. I said, "Moreover, that boat is not big enough for us." They said, "We will give you an additional boat ;" which they did. They said, " What are we to do ? " I said, " I do not know what you are to do, except to go and report what we say to the Moscow soviet, to Lenine and Trotsky and Tchitcherin." So they stationed a g-uard around the train. It was the 26th of July. They left and came back in about 30 hours. In the meantime they had been wiring to Moscow, and we had known what they were wiring, as the wire had to go through Petrograd. We had means of knowing what was in the wires. The central soviet, while professing to desire us to leave Russia, was command- ing the local soviet to detain us there as hostages. Senator Nelson. At Archangel? Mr. Francis. At Archangel. We knew that, when they came back on the 27th of July, about 2 or 3 o'clock, and we had determined to leave. We had determined to leave for Kandalaksha because there was an anti-Bolsheviki revolution to be pulled off at Archangel, and we knew it, and we did not want to be there when it occurred, and they knew it, and had been evacuating the town. They had been kill- ing people up there and deporting people. Senator Nelson. At Archangel ? Mr. JFeancis. At Archangel, for several days; and when we as- sumed such a firm attitude before them, they were frightened and 950 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. did not w'ant to detain us, but they threw all the obstacles they conld in our way, and .we did not get off until 4 o'clock in the morning of the -iOth of July for Kandalaksha. They came, for instance, and said that our baggage did not have diplomatic seals on it. I turned to my colleagues and I said, " Wp Avill go down and identify the baggage." Then they got the baggage on the boat about 8 o'clock in the evening, and they said that we must all come off the boats to show our passports when we reembarked, which we did. By that time it was 12 o'clock at night. Then they said they must go across the river. You see, the railroads do not go into Archangel. They go on the south side of the Dvina Elver, which is about a mile wide there. They went over to Archangel proper, and they were gone until 4 o'clock, and they came back at 4 o'clock in the morning, and we cleared for Kandalaksha. We had made up our minds to cleai', I'egardless of whether they permitted us or not, be- cause there was a British merchantman in the harbor, and I said to the British commissioner, " What boat is that? " He said, " It is one of ours." And I said, "Will it obey your instructions? " He said, " I think so." I said, " If they do not come by 7 o'clock, we will get on the boat and go on to Kandalaksha." They came back at 4 o'clock. This was about 2 o'clock. At Kandalaksha we heard that Gen. Poole was at Murmansk. Murmansk is the port of the railway that is open all the year round. Kandalaksha is about 150 miles south of Murmansk. We heard, after we had arrived at Kandalaksha, that the general with about 2,000 men had cleared that morning for Archangel, where he arrived on the 2d of August, and from the bar he telephoned in, " What gov- ernment is in control there? " They said, "The provisional govern- ment of northern Russia." A bloodless revolution had taken place, a coup d'etat about four hours before. They said, "Can we land? Will you permit us to land ? " The Bolsheviki government had been prohibiting the landing of allied troops. They said, " Yes ; come quick." They landed on the 2d of August. We returned there — the allied missions — on the 9th of August from Kandalaksha, where we had held the boats upon which we were trans- ported from Archangel to Kandalaksha. In the morning the British commissioner and the Italian ambassador and the French minister — not the French ambassador — and I had gone to Murmansk, and had been able to communicate with our governments from there. I wired my Government my plans, that I was going back to Archangle, and it approved of those plans ; so I went back to Archangel, and I stayed there until the 6th of November. Senator .Nelson. Let me ask you there, Mr. Francis, did not that northern government that you speak of invite the military authorities and you to come back there ? Mr. Feancis. Yes, sir; they did. Senator Nelson. That northern government? Mv. Francis. That northern government. Senator Nelson. Of that northern province. Mv. Francis. It was called the provisional government of the northern region. Senator Nelson. I asked you that because it was stated by a wit- ness yesterday that the allied forces were there by invitation of the northern orovernraent. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 951 Mr. Francis. Exactly. Why, you had here, I see from the morn- ing papers, a man named Martiuszine, who was minister of finance in that Archangel government. Well, that Archangel government was kidnapped while I was there. But we brought it back. Senator Steeling. I think the witness so indicated. Mr. Francis. He did. Well, old man Tchaikowsky — he is about 70 years of age, and looked to be 80 — lived in this country from 1875 to 1879, at Independence, Kans., and had li^ed in England 28 years and in France a year and a half. He Avas always a re\olutionist and a socialist. But that government up there was the choice of the people. It was the choice of three-fourths of the people in the zone of Eussia occupied by the allied forces. Senator Xelson. That covered all the country, practically, between the Siberian railroad and up to the White Sea? Mr. Francis. No ; it did not. It covered only about half of that. Senator Nelson. The northern half ? Mr. Francis. The northern half. Senator Nelson. The distance is about 600 or 700 miles, is it not ? Mr. Francis. The distance is about 400 miles from Vologda to Archangel, and the allied troops are only down about 150 miles, down that far on the railroad. I see they have been driven back since I left. They were up the Dvina River 150 milas toward Kotlas. These American troops landed there on the 4:th of September, and this ■coup d'etat, this kidnapping, took place on the night of the 5th of September. It was evidently timea to make the impression upon people up there that it had the sanction, if it was not at the instance, of the American ambassador, being timed after the landing of the American troops. But I soon gave them to understand that I did not sanction it at all. I was very emphatic in regard to one thing. T was dean of the diplomatic corps, and petitions and delegations and telegrams were coming in to me in reference to the kidnapping, which had occurred on the morning of the 6th of September by Rus- sian officers, asking me to reinstall the deposed government of the ministers. They had been taken on a steamer and put in the Solo- vetski monastery, on Solovetski Island, which was about 30 hours from Archangel. There were three American battalions which had been landed there ; •one of them was sent down the railroad toward Vologda, one was sent up the Dvina River toward Kotlas, and the other one was held in Archangel. Immediately afterwards I reviewed this battalion that was left in Archangel. Gen. Poole and I received its salute on the government steps. Gen. Poole turned to me and said, "There was a revolution here last night." I said, " The hell you say ! Who pulled it off?" He said, "Chaplain." Chaplain was a Russian naval officer on Gen. Poole's staff. I said, " There is Chaplain over there now." I motioned to Chaplain to come over and join us. Gen. Poole said, " Chaplain is going to issue a proclamation at 11 o'clock." It was then a quarter past 10. I said, " Chaplain, who pulled off this revolution here last night? " He said, " I did." Senator Overman. You say Chaplain was on Poole's staff? Mr. Francis. Yes; a Russian officer detailed by Poole on his staff. He Avas a colonel. He had done very good work against the Bol- sheviks, getting them out. He said. " I drove the Bolshevilri out of here. I established this government. They were in Gen. Poole's 952 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. way and were hampering Col. Donop, who was the French provost marshal. I see no use for any government here anyway." I said, " I think this is the most flagrant usurpation of power I ever knew, and don't you circulate that proclamation that Gen. Poole tells me you have written, until I can see it and show it to my colleagues." So we met that day at my apartment. I was suffering very much from this ailment, from, which I afterwards got relief through a surgical operation. That is another story. If it had not been for that ailment probably I would be in Russia now. They came up there at 12 o'clock. I had Chaplain there. This had been a coup d'etat, or kidnapping, you know, by Eussian officers, counter revolutionaries, monarchists, who were against this social- istic government — this governmeiat which they called socialistic — and it was having constant friction with the military authorities. When these troops landed I had sent for Col. Stewart, and I said, ''Have you any communication for me'^ " Col. Stewart was the American commander of these 4,700 American troops. " Have you any com- munication for me?" He said, "No."' I said, "What are your orders?" He said, "To report to Gen. Poole, who is commanding the allied forces in northern Russia." " Well," I said, " I interpret our policy here, and if I should tell you not to obey one of Gen. Poole's orders, what would you do ? " He said, " I would obey you." I had arranged all that beforehand through the department, I thought. But we never had anj friction over there. We never had any friction between the French and mj^self nor between the British and myself. The British were more impatient with this socialistic government than I was, and it was generally believed there that if I had not been there the socialistic government would not have been brought back. These men, whose minister of finance I learn was before you yes- terday, were not all socialists. There was one cadet. But they were, as I thought, administering a very good government, and it was un- doubtedly the choice of three-fourths of the Russians that were in this allied zone. Senator Steeling. While socialist, it was not Bolshevik? Mr. Francis. No; it was just as opposed to the Bolsheviki as the allies were. More so than the monarchists were, because the monarch- ists all favored the Bolsheviki, thinking that was the shortest or quickest return to the monarchy. Senator Nelson. To simplify matters, I will say that this gen- tleman yesterday stated in substance that Poole attempted to estab- lish a government of his own, but that you restored the old gov- ernment. Mr. Francis. I think he was wrong there. Poole did not want to establish a government of his own. British soldiers, you know, have been colonizers for so long that they do not know how to re- spect the feelings of socialists. I do not mean that that is the policy of the British Government, but the British officers have had to do with so many uncivilized peoples and Great Britain has done so much colonizing that its officers do not feel as American officers feel. For instance, I was narrating just now how this coup detat was planned, so as to make the impression on the public mind that I was not only favorable to it but that I was executing it. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 953 For the first time American soldiers were put on the streets to patrol them. I heard that American soldiers were manning the street cars. Thirty thousand laborers struck, up there. When they heard of this Ividnaping, all of the workmen in all the factories struck. The workmen on the street cars struck, and all the workmen up there went on strike. I heard about half past 12 o'clock that the Americans were manning the street cars, and called up Col. Stewart, or attempted to call him up. I coilld not find him, but I called up the major who was in command of the battalion, a man named Nichols, and I said, "Maj. Nichols, is it true that American soldiers are manning these street cars? " " Yes." I said, " Do you not know that will raise commotions in America? By whose orders is this? " He said, " Well, G. H. Q." — general headquarters. I said, " Was it in writing? " "No; it was not in writing," he said. "I was called up by phone and asked if I had any men here who could act as motormen and as conductors on the street cars, and as my battalion was recruited in Detroit, about half of them are motormen and con- ductors, so I said, ' yes.' " He said, " I sent some of the men down to the car sheds to take the cars out." I said, " Where is Col. Stew- art?" He said, "Mr. Ambassador, we are charging no fares." I said, " That is different. But," I said, " I want Col. Stewart, any- For 24 hours or perhaps 30 hours Americans were conducting the street cars, or acting as motormen, and at every stopping place, which is every two or three blocks, there were two or three American soldiers to keep the crowd off the cars. Senator O^teeman. Because they were riding free? Mr. Feakcis. Yes. American soldiers up there showed the same spirit that they did on the western front. They were just anxious to get into a fight with somebody. They understood the cause of the war. But I was walking along the street, the Broadway of Arch- angel, one day, and I saw three or four American soldiers looking at a war map. I said to them in English, " You are American soldiers." They turned around and smiled at me, and I said, "I never was so glad to see American soldiers in my life as I was when you landed here a few days ago." They did not say anything in response to that, and I said, " I am the American ambassador." Well, they opened their eyes wider, but that did not evoke a response from them. I exchanged four or five more remarks with them, and they answered respectfully " Yes " and " No " all the time, and I turned around to go away and they detained a man who was with me, and they said, " Who is that fellow ? " The man replied, " That is Gov. Francis." They said, "Why in hell didn't he say so?" They were from Michigan and Minnesota and knew me by repu- tation. I said, " There is one thing I want understood." I said it with an oath, but I have repeated so many oaths here that I will not repeat that. " There is one thing that I want understood." " What is that ? " I said, " Civil strife in the rear of our own front. Now," I said, "I am not going to permit the lives of our soldiers to be jeopardized by Bolsheviki on one side and a civil war in the rear. I will order them back from the railroad and from up the river, and if there is a gun fired here we will participate in the fire our- ^54 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. selves, if we have to kill Russians." That stopped the civil strife. There was not any fear of it after that. Senator Nelson. And the old government came back ? Mr. Francis. And we brought back the old government on Sunday night, and it was reinstalled on Monday morning at 9 o'clock. Senator Nelson. Anti-Bolshe\ik government? Mr. Fbancis. Anti-Bolshevik government. You know the coup irig'>t'd' ni|!r sajd "t,hey did .not know except, that tliey were,; sent. "there Ttp. protect tlie' emhaasy. , That, was undei- the'proyisiojiaT.goverhment.., I -said ,to , tliem, .""I am tlie Amei-.ican arobasiSp.clpr/;"Tt ,a maaj; crosses -that threshold witliout my consent and yo4i''do .iiotshoi^t^ liini^T wiir. I have a loaded pistol here in, my pocket." . T, ^^^"" ,^" -Ju^t at that time the cloor. opened and, a m.an.put'hi.s h^ad'^in and. I- said,. ""'Ask that man wlio'lieis."" .The',niananswere(Jj' himself. He, uiidefstQp.d -English. ^Jb said, "J/am the. chief .-.pfLpoKcej ^conle to_ protect j'ou." I told hiih that he' could enter. , Tlie ladies had abput- put.on theij^^yraps at_ that, tin^e^ anjl I ^scortecl tliem out Q,fthe,''d,Q;Qi'- l;foijiid:SCro]L' ,4Q, soidlers^^n .tl;ie-'sidewa,llv,,,all,wi,th fixed". b^y^rtsts^ who' had been.sent down'by, ti|ia,|ioIice. or','the'>ii}^ii-a„ta def ejld .'tJif- American ^embassy,.. ,T_made" tlie'.i^-emark that^thi&.'had'^a.'^sferipus; ap'-' pearance ^aowr when-^naan came .up'.arui.wMspere.d.T^P tjie. man who, Av^as. iii.citizen's clothes, and.who. had fQld-ihe^^;was,.ohieJf, of.police,- ari(l he lum^d..to me and said in' English,, "Tji.e iHp.b-hay.disiwrsed/ up.'p.n the Litainy," which, was a .blo.ck frqmli^he.emfessy.. . 1 ,i^ske^„ him why it had been dispersed and how, and he said thjftt a tl'bop. of', CQ^pks ^ca,me; ajong and-asjied them Avhat, they;, weriyoing'-a^Eia wh^e :^]^y ^yere -going, and w^'eiii they .; replied- that.tliey were gpiug, to sack the American embassy, the Cossacks charged thern,, ancL cl&.^ ba^ided- them, -I att,emj^ted to get, into communication with.,$^e' miuisters that hight,i^but-I.,did not dor so, :anil the 1:ollowiiji'grd;ayj"I- heard,,that this ii^cendiary speech was^inade -by jLenine, but, J never- got -pyoof .of it.. Tliemob w-as ^irous.ea/becauseTit ,was saict'thai.thej'j spealier, AYhoeve;i' he was, .saicl,fha,t-there was ii, man in America -wh,o„, was to be hanged beca.U^e^he was a','soci"alii3t"^hd,his nanie„was-M-u-u-i,..; I |ia,d never heard of Muni, butl"'fbujid-qut it was, M'^ohey, of ;San. Francisco, who, had, been condein'hed - to death, because he was an. accessory before the throwing of -that bohib w^ich killed about 2.0' peo.-" pie in the. preparedness - parade and _ wounded about 100 Jiiiioceut,. people. I, was afterward, under- Bolshevik "rule, waited. upon by a committee of anarchists, who had come f rom , JHelsingf brs. . They were sailors. They presented, .me a Resolution- saying,lthat, if ,tlaejr colj[(Bagues,~Berlanan ancb Emma Goldman and Mooney, -^#i;e not re- leased^ they would hold me personally responsible. -I told them that- I would consider, it. -They went out. I cabled it.to.t^ieGoveriuneiit'. next day and said, " Do not let consid_eration for my s_afety interfere with the course of the law." Later, in Januarj^, I was presented with. a re&olntion thathad.been passed by about 200 anarchists, in-a,garage, that was three and a l^alf blocks f roni my embassy, which resolution stated thatif JBerkman and Emma Goldman and Mooney, and"others_ Avlio; were -likewise- imprisoned for some offense^ ' which they had stjatedwas- because they had giv«ii up. their lives and all of their time to the liberation oi tha oppressed, were not released, I would be held . BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 963 personally .Responsible for.it. Thfit was delivered at my embassy §»ffiM4^^oVi6imgri5fifeire^'«^ /^ov oQ .,.v.iyl^oJ.5n-/ Mr. Feakois. Under Trotsky and Lenine. I showed it to Col- Robijis Ijhe next day and he asked me who presented thig,'aridl^I 4^id l^alMnd.' "iZalkifl'(i Was'Mista'iit''miiiister' 6f fdrei^A aflFjii-i's. ois'.nsr ;^4or;N^LB^jj:''fife^i^seMedit:i^^^ "'■' "' } -i 'i, -"il^ yMry^|"EAMfs,''liff''^VeB^ Hfe'diti notsajr & wOfd abotifr Brotectlpn;, at alt _ Mr. Ebbiris SEtid, "I will t^ke(' this to Leninfe,'"' and' lietootv'it TO Lmine. and ^Lenine removed Zaikinid and niade him niin-' ifejtoiflfeMaiiiif.:/ ''''-' ]^^' -^ ^oi,,ooo en.-, no ^..i.,.?:. ■ ._ '^iSe^'agaii^^'i SiaS-givin'g'a i^eception '^)9ife'ltiigM''1;Q'the'rmilitary' at^' taciie, tjen.'yu-dsori/ whw wh:^ k'feout-to legfef^hellT' Kad a teiep'hdne' call about j^oon.from a .woman^a Mi^i Proctor f^'^Jto Was a^^Rilssiaif by„ birjth^ biif ¥!t6^Md:mSfTied the' eldei* I!i-'d6toif'^Qlthfef-fifttf ©f^^Proc- m{& 'tiaMle. "MS, 'fekiai that ' ^hd ' 'desii-ed 'te'= s^'' i(ieFMt-%le-^¥as ffimr?Q%c"S|fefl¥%5(t 'M''S^:T^Mii that he hfid on his person r , '.t—o , it .-Ta^i t,~ o.^-,^ ,„...■ - ;. Mr, FSAXCis.^Well, I -hef\«V:a;;^ev^ai^;q^It ,jnfi^elp^/J' ai^jiy^i^ that I - i'?iir-02T^ ! :- ^enatei: X ja.sp|rj ,J)id IjajlT^avej ? j,'e(:J§irtjals J^-oin, ^he JiqJ^^iliJ gov- ernment ?-,;:7Ta ■i^:^:'\■J. \o kasS^;ni -i'di 51 ^K .^^oY v^^Z ;,. [fi-i-*- -.L Mt. ERA3?cjs,iIe,had x;pinrf\anjpi|aQi\s,fFoin thejEqlsl-^^viJ^^^^^'if- ment addressed to our Government ; But I can hot learn smce,ai^yjing ■jJlJJWashiRgton/that■J^e:€veflpreselJte|:}I.tllo^(J ^ommiipi^atipij,^^' Ij]^ aiiiSenatoi';I*ri;LSDN,^H$ never, w^as ,receiyec\^hei;e. thep.p^^s.J]^ f'i'M?t*r SitdQf-;'fiOTii:ihe;I5Qlsb«fikigDvefnmfpit4r inid vviv i-y/-..;: I yi-i "aij-,/ m^ (stStemebtstatyMo^awijtJtfit ^ J .i^uecL ,a.j§^ewen4^;iWM?W^ that ^Yhile Col. Eobins and I understood each otheifgiii;ftdjpW^ic^ irieiKH^Mtftii' esp.r68siQBs^Lot,i:^#i«rJQan^jiQljcy£tha.t^di^j)i6^o^B^iW -from- ine,r.:wer^-«n&ttthoj'J0ei4^'i I[iillv§^-,a r<«a^Y,,Qtlthc^., ataf.?^}?j(ity^gj I should like tofflelit tomto Jnyme.7om n ica n^di aiJl 5 lofaisa^ud L.,GS-eniitm5,fjCbifiKiiM. .Ml ti^*fe5>;«.§ flb«<]^lifeeiTeiQ>CMl.9i^^jteJ^y^M0" file.itqj ?r[ ban .sis^uK 03 aoi'.z'LlC ^^otj bsH afi-jiiamA 9di \o Mr. Francis. I4i^r6lrTkjteH-.'fiiOiM?^dQbfiTTt-i^jiisjjo r. ba:i noiilirn Senator Nelson. A'\^io was Radfefe? nosqmoiiT .viciiiaZ loiJins?, i!JiMnt-r«A:s(EaiS;oRadidt49iliiei:B©Jsb'i5Sk2¥fc> iafflW iftj^iji^ t^Ii^rig te-iTOV€rturnTih6-:.goy'ernmfihtH.fehfii^. -^d: diivr jn^a gui ni -rAni^is'A .9;>Sfenaior JviNQ.,. 33e4lia^.beeftitigre..fori#Vfei' tfssQjj^ijimtl^- ,lHi^^e.,B9^, entthreerimciotha? 17T o-i^T tc. irp.b it^j rtinjiyr turiwoiii-l ji9[ 91* b.it t [iMitjFE3JS'cia.-:YSs.t..(.Her •wmi-theij liwjfi ■^vIiqw [ Tftliitfih^A'jP f?¥itvfr ■Yoiogda;ix) Hxexjute-rthe invateition tl^fitfhe li^a4:esteni4^:tft.u,§'tp(iQpi;ie to Moscow. He was in uniform and had a pistol on th&..outeide, which I -did n^trnotice at the. time ; b:ut I heai^d. jlfterwar4^, .^s f onfhg from Radek. that'LCal. JElobins. was the ooiirjer foF- the go^^et govi?.riif ment with pra'posals. to our Government togp&nt usjthe Sftnie <;on- cessions, privileges, and advantages that it iHd. been foi'ced tq, grant to Gfirmany in tire Bcest-Litovsk treaty, which is what Iilrave thought Col. Eobins meant by "having the goods on him.'': I , asked -my renresentative to whom Eadek had told this if the sa:n^e,prjviJ[pges were extended to the English and the Freflch- jHe saiid<';":No:;.it is oniy to the^\uTieric!ms7 andrWeido flotwailt the 1 Eiigli^i ' findithe French, to. krrow" any tking?_-:'about;:it.V/. Well, -I, .cabled .that,ta:the Government,- because' -I, 'ilid note think, tiiatthts',GovernJiient,.r;\^fiyld prove treacherous. to it;| allies by. taking: any.such:adYaittag6^as; bljat. £ can not: leari4''iiit.hough-I -have ':ma£l6.inquiri«S{sincer, arriving h^p, fliafeiCol. Eobirfs erei: presented :tb6§e .cemmimicationsi l3ufl,fhey 'vterg fctoing TrlratevBr they, roulct to. olif^in, recognition.-by: 0V:e3Go5jeCTiM*wt'- T4iat is Svhyrjtheydid.not order mo- out Qfj.the.cOMatry^jiraii Oi: u^^'^dt. :'.?Senatdi- NELSois".: They. Jiopei-: you iwctuld mienfc? .n::/; .tioiI tst.'j- £ rMr.. ;F:^N.cis. oThey .always, hoj^ed tti: ha;ve;the , i-fiCogni^ion-Qf <^ Ga'\-arnm-enti ji5id:I: thought: tJiat ^nv .Gosiecnment: icoujd. iflofe ,r,^pogni^ thenr/ ahct.isa'^fit'Sfl-to ora?; Governmente ,':I: have: bewtrCPl^^tejii fin that all aiona^xBud yoei-sisteHt.,- .i:.tlioug;ht-th&>ti:tiift}f w,€re;,'iiig!Wiist our (^TDverhinentias Trelhasiagainst'^ll organized govemfiiQntsj'^ijat their decrees concerning women, marriage, and divorce nieftj(ri>#f? breakiHg-:Hg oithe fainiij'-and a returir to-baSt»arisifi ;.and Jj^ipfc so now. , Senator Nelson. And their land decrees, SoiiMStiMgalB laifd:^? ^'•■' Mi-.'-'MANcts'.^THeii- iaftd'lecrefes;'' c&fffisgati'ni alT^^lAnds' ftft* all *fnlii^MdS ^h-atever/--- ''--'■^■'*", '.*>-' -'.^a :?c.ji. ■*):„• "'•;=:,!,;.;:-;,;,: :,r r,-„;;,;ui "' ■■S6iiat6t''']fEL^ON/"Bafilc^-M^;'eve>ytKingi- :^i.i-~h'£^:iwi ''-^' '^-' "i- Senator King. What was their Mtiifirde towkM.religisoii'atfd tcward 5 the churches? ,. , \;uO,!„::.i.'_ - - ,j;'_ :.M latter part of the summer the Bolshevik Russians were inGl®i4d;to '!3?i! ttrffiraiuMi.-^^'^'':'^ ;r.iLi-5,..^ iijt: :..o»r7 .^cH^aV T.yr,3c,w' , SeAator Overman. Did they, not confiscate-tfeyehWchnisOiedlsiuj. • "'-^'M?f f^AMl'^I fa Mgt'tMnk'^Hey •aid'.- I 'do:fet ^fei^kilieyl^on- fiscated any of tKS ehui'dh laiia%?i-*'^{y •ft^Kf^mfefijfeer.-aSBkigy i^UBd 'i^ra^^gipl^-oii-'lht? iJSrfliHg bf" '-tEW M^M- PSbrfiaTy^,;2#fe-feii4he'.ifeWse^iet *'^efiat6¥'''NlfisoN.*'^fiat'~''M4uM'iiiiif6Kide I^ftifch4^as,ii0£ dmifsesiiL a»ch'JfeeiiMisfn0f csswirsKajbrJ'o-jq '="S'er8i*8r''N«Ls9i?'. 'MM^erdwri^TMWS-'? -Tis^jd [^ny sm/bjO: ^rfJ .jjiisaa::! Mr. Francis. And crown lands^,^ s\»d:r ^nator, Nelson. And \^¥^M€0o¥J^&i\A-§'i&.dimm'sMhv.:Aasr:. ■■'°l[r;^I%tN't!isPMid*^^^(?-Iand^ib§P#5 M| laniia0«^.iiersiO'4_...£T ;^}.: ;*^'SWira^(Sf. McggNV-vThat w»EiMi?i4s^tid%'i4lseD'th©:lar[d3'iof rthe miars, ^M;ip6ffini)ina!'-*pMpfertt?-'* '^''■"\ J-'»)i '-^ .i..a),-:i>ii ' , >jk ' ,>x:,-. um l;-tj,= un.i^j,: ip^;^jf^fi§. 'Yete:- 'a-wd'ftft«©f ^ay-fhat Ij^waifnofopposedirtoiihat tltvl^ion'oi ratfds,'%^a'lfse I'beffig^ve th'a?t-fh©se:wh®;i^iir'tke Lami'showid 2iw!i-^t^, "ancl I waslW-f eCvoI*' of '£t'v^r-nmeiife*•'" ■"-' •••! ' .;;:c.;:jw': ; ..i;;;;:ji..r :r^r.\FEAkfciS.-';Exactly: ''■ '^'- r. 5 V ■.).!.:_ i.irr^ ^ ,:r :;:,;_:fTe^ : .:::u;;v ' ; *Seiifttbi' JfELS.oN;' AM-rio'3^ibi''te^4aiid' tlian-'they can till-liiejiiisels.es ; 'it^'landthat'ih'eyhWe tb'tlll -Wit¥'hiretivhdlp ?=•-•'-; - }ir';r :h:sPA-^- h^C^ ^"■*g:^l^i&^cis;'-Nb.™^'^ '■vr.'VL:;- «.v..^ ,^:i.rr ;S^.o.:i:-.50 ;,:T ,;«-r Hsri1rtor\Niii-_s65tr Is 'Mt that so* . ;iU';ii.i';r.iJ vT,:r ;; -,- t--,-'- jtc.- ,'-''" -.":'Jji::r;p;"'V .i^tii'WRUA "a Russiiii"^easaarfJcBraid Senator Nelson. Aiid he could shift around froHi.ion^^pl4«K;lo another frojn year toy6rrr"<5buld'»'P*f ■^" 'f'"'' i---i 's::rj>x,^i^ Mr FSA%M^'-I'thiffi^SMer-fHat'%m(tff!:fefe^'e&Md. J}r,«:A.iT T-ivy ™WeMFl:iA^b.W^M^TdSa #'^sdih^ftiiMg€ik^'th6>pli£ tfe-fefagaad- etone dftvised in Ireland ? '' ■|a..j-fii(:fib .ror't ' 968 BOLSHEVIK PEOBAGANDA. Mr. Francis. Exactly. Senator King. The crown would set apart a certain amount of money to purchase the land, and they would expropriate it and give it to the peasant — that is, to the landseeker — and he would have a certain number of years to pay for it? Mr. Francis. Exactly. Senator King. At a small rate of interest, and become the owner? Mr. Francis. Exactly; so as to prevent it from being a hardship on him. Senator Nelson. Under this Russian system the peasant never could become an owner? Mr. Francis. No; he never could become an owner under the soviet system. And they nationalized all the banks. Now, the railroads were made the especial charge of the American Embassy. A railroad commission came over there at about the time the Root Commission came, headed by John F. Stevens. I took John F. Stevens to the department of ways and communications and installed him there. I say " installed him there " — ^he had an office provided for him there; and later he was going down to southern Russia, the Donetz coal basin country, to inspect the railroads down there. Senator Nelson. Down in the Ukraine? Mr. Francis. Down in the Ukraine. He got back as far as Mos- cow, and the revolution had broken out, and he wired me for in- structions. I said : " Remain where you are as long as it is safe, and then come to Petrograd. I will attempt to protect you here ; " and he went, a few days after that, if not on the same day that he re- ceived my telegram, to Harbin, where he is now, and is in charge of the trans-Siberian Railroad. Now, I wired to him in May — I think is was in May — to send Emerson and 100 of the engineers that were of the Stevens party to me at Vologda. He replied that he would send them at the first opportunity, but he sent a subsequent telegram saying that he was opposed to the whole matter. Our Government here asked me what I wanted with those railroad men. Well, I said that I wished to use them to operate the trans-Siberian road under tlie department of ways and communications, with the subordinate officials of which department I had always maintained pleasant relations. I got my trains from them; I got the train on which I sent out my staff, the train on which I sent the nationals, and the train on which I left Petrograd myself. Emerson left Vladivostok the 19th of May, but he never has arrived at Vologda yet. The Czecho-Slovaks, whose numbers were variously estimated "from forty to sixty thousand, and who were escaped or released Austrian prisoners whp had taken up arms against Austria, were interfering with the operation of the trans-Siberian road, because they were attempting to get out to join the forces on the western front. This was in July of last year. No ; I think it began in June of last year. I instructed our consul general at Moscow to join the other consuls general in protesting against this treatment of the Czecho-Slovaks. Senator King. What treatment, Governor? Mr. Francis. Interfering with their leaving the country. Senator King. The Bolsheviks were attempting to restrain them from departing? BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 969 Mr. Francis. They were attempting to restrain them from depart- ing, at the instigation of the Germans. Trotsky issued an order that they could leave via Vladivostok if they would give up their arms ; and at the same time he issued a secret order that, any railroad man who transported them — any conductor or any station agent— Would be punished ; and they were all put to work. Senator Steeling. Then, when Col. Eobins testifies that the move- ment of the Szecho-Slovaks was not interfered with by the Trotsky and Lenine government, at the instigation of the Germans, he is mis- taken, is he, Mr. Francis? Mr. Francis. I think he is mistaken, because I think the Germans inspired the Trotsky government to interfere with the departure of the Czecho-Slovaks. The Czecho-Slovaks have done excellent fight- ing up there. Senator Overman. That is corroborated by Col. Hurban, who made the treaty with them, and who testified that after starting they took all the guns away from them. Mr. Francis. They took all the guns away from them, and they promised them that if they would give up their guns they would let them go out. Senator Overman. That was the testimony of Col. Hurban, attache for the Czecho-Slovak government, who was here ; and he also made this contract, as I understand, Maj. Humes, did he not? Mr. Httmes. He was one of the commissioners. Senator King. After taking their guns away from them they at- tacked them ? Mr. Francis. They attacked them. Oh, they broke faith with the Czecho-Slovaks. The Czecho-Slovaks were first attempting to get to Vladivostok, and they afterwards attempted to get to Archangel, where I was, but they were prevented by the armed Bolshevists from doing either. I do not know what numbers the Czecho-Slovaks now are in, but they are still there under Kolchak. Senator Nelson. Over around Omsk? Mr. Francis. Around Omsk; yes. You know, the distances in Eussia are so immense — why, it is as far from Petrograd to Vladi- vostok as it is from Petrograd to Washington — farther. It is over 6,000 miles. Senator King. More than that ; about 7,000 miles. Senator Sterling. Did you know Col. Lebedeff, Ambassador Francis ? Mr. Francis. Oh, yes ; I knew him. Senator King. Vladimir Lebedeff? Senator Sterling. Yes ; Vladimir Lebedeff. Mr. Francis. I think I knew him. Mr. Johnston, is that the name of the man who was Senator Sterling. He was former secretary of the navy in the Eussian provisional government. Mr. Johnson (private secretary to Ambassador Francis). Yes; you knew him. Senator King. A dark-complexioned man, with whiskers; rather small. Mr. Francis. Oh, yes ; I knew him very well. Senator Sterling. Was he considered a man of high repute? Mr. Francis. Yes ; he stood well there. '970 'feoL^Hjiivil'- piolScMi^. j6A>fas;p'fl0t;if/t^vo'rbftTie'-^ ■'' " "''^-'- -'■jJ''-^ 1'^^ r";S^^HAkcig: 1 'ttehk'he WSs'ffi f avSf '&f i;}ie"'revo1iW%ifV4>«t Wo "not irecalf ^acdy.'^'" '■ ■l^'^^V'.'";";' '',''' 'T^ — ''^!f^ ;*-.:, -a-j-.„- ,,i, ^^^.e.nator King. . Let meTfeallth^- matter WyiJfl'r'^^ft^ ,',w^s diirf e|f '#di^' EBSsia-^d'ttfin-^ the - O^aristic .r^ffin^ec^iiS^^^ his T«vbj-uti0it^ry • attmtfts?" S^'iva^ agaMt tlife'^Cifaf .••'f^5fe'%e^^ to^Ii^a^ge an^ enliste'd''ai'i"pfifate/kM'^^Jbfght''th^e^^ and rose to the Jwas oreaiitaenii ItyioftM'^naVy 6?If9lr; ■-^^TenWto>gl>fefe>.*:^«^^^ ;re- Senator King. Yes that is Li 3#PV^' 3ija^ _ __ , -WP^Mla^Mred Wffl^ o^fblffiSK^ bsauno-tcr . J Senator Kiiw., It was more than that. About a tlffiRi?^ •'ffigi^M. '*f^r'lifMr*Bem tP'iv^f''Be^f-4«f?5frfffS%f'S'^°'«-<»^39sO Bdi :oi Senator S^«J^G.^€o}f'^!K^^ff%aS'':^'ff§sM'*he Wef!^4S0?epHi *^^% ifi'--tM¥i^io«^:e f arcA^jiT '3, ..iillCtg TICM Mr. Feal Helsinj We''(3alicasus'"aiiidi}i'e Odessa Sistricl,' in which tKey have jiii)4;,Qii|ro^, fd^orth Qiitihey.do ijQt hay.e_,contr(jl ; ^a,nd, qJE. C9,pse,'jEli^^ Jj^ve comrbl iii' Siberia" except nefe and'th.CTe in Jpcai/s'pQtg., .'^'"'.''..,^^.^.. ,,, .Mr/FR4,NCis.^E:^actly- exac^^^^^ „, ,.;^;:Vr' V' -"- '-' t-V"^r~ Vu'" :; featpi^-^Kf^c^.SQ it is ojttly;|i]b-our4I)^0W,t)P0 of the people :in-it^s- Sa SvCTi'whom Ttliey feM-cJsecohtroL' -Instead' of ,l80,000,do'0rit' is fctoif afek%,ei06^6o f : " ' ■ '^'■-" , '- 'f ^^^, f ' :.. , ■ \: ^": - :--' > ' - ; ";'• ' v; ■' Mr.'- m'ireisl -' Oh^y;>6o.,uoO,QOO;OAQ.^^'l. tihinl^: y% are;cQrKect,,:,t(?'- cau,se,thev„(|plpt.^etto.l|t^e"j^^Jh,ife 1.50.miJie§,,and-they"dp;hot getfoWe ^l'ctic;p'0;0iTrat^firhl|fisJt tfyJOO ^iiilepv ■"S'#homJ'wSich is 200 miles soutK-ttfMlirifcajitg|t;ig 'ocCtipie4';%-the rebuilding the Murman ria!aTi3'm;fl3fecause it ^asveij-ytfeeciirfely built ^, ^fefl%o¥'"^iN A " pid"'^tlie ]Cem am W dlteS' agaihsrth«-cm^ •;■ *"■ ' ;^ " ■. v; ■'"-■' ft#l"'^pcou4g|n^rit t. could to tU^in Jo; ,|?,resgnt .ao ,Qrg,i^iyzea„froh1b in fefdef to prevent the" GernaarT divisions that had been on the g^t- erji frpntironi;beins sent pvej,^ the western frq&fc. anOrtold EoMfe tions, which he transmitted through the War iJIpal'tlhent" code, ask'- 972 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. ing what America and the allies would do ; but they invariably ac- companied that by a statement that the great social revolution should not be interfered with. As I stated this morning, I think their object in the beginning was a vrorld-wide social revolution. The correct- ne^ of that opinion has been demonstrated since by their propagan- dizing in all countries against all government. They are attempting to break up the family, which was the first outgrowth toward society ; and I think the predominance of Bolshevism throughout the world will mean a return to barbarism. Senator King. You noticed that they had a large number of Rus- sian Bolshevists in Argentine recently, and a strike was called and many people were killed, and the government, in self-defense, had to seize about 1,184 of them and put them on a vessel, and probably they have shipped them back to Russia. Coming back again to the question I suggested, you state, then, that no proposition was ever made by that government — the Bolshe- vik government — to join hands with the allies in resisting the aggres- sions of the central powers ? Mr. Francis. No proposition was ever made by the Bolsheviks to the allies that came to me. Col. Robins said that Senator King. Never mind what Col. Robins said. We are inter- ested in knowing what you know as ambassador. Mr. Francis. He said that the Bolsheviki asked the question as to what America and the allies would do if they refused to ratify that treaty. They ratified that treaty by a vote of two and a half to one at the Moscow meeting, whereupon I issued that proclamation that elicited from Kuehlmann a demand on the soviet government that I be deported from Russia. Senator Sterling. And it was at Lenine's demand that that treaty was ratified, was it not? Mr. Francis. Exactly ; it was at Lenine's demand that the treaty was ratified. Senator Sterling. The first impression was not to ratify, the treaty, was not, at that soviet ? Mr. Francis. I think I gave an interview at Vologda appealing to the Russian people not to ratify the treaty, and there was some doubt about its ratification. The second treaty was signed on the 3d of March. The first treaty, as I said, was rejected by Trotsky in a very dramatic way when he made that stage-play. Senator Kjng. That was in December or the last of November? Mr. Francis. Yes ; that was in December, I think. Senator Nelson. December or January ? Mr. Francis. December or January. They declared an armistice, you know, without consulting any of the allies. I think that if Rus- sia had stood up to her obligations the war would have been ended a year before it was ended, and millions of lives could have been saved. Russia lost more men in the war than any other country, although she quit the war a year before it ended. I think she lost at least 2,000,000 men, and there were 2,000,000 Russians imprisoned in Ger- man and Austrian prison camps when I arrived at Petrograd in April, 1916. Senator King. When Lenine and Trotsky returned to Russia did they announce as one of the purposes the immediate cessation of hos- tilities so far as Russia was concerned ? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 973 Mr. Francis. Yes; they did after they got into power. Does anyone suppose that Lenine would have been permitted to come through Germany and into Russia without German consent? He had the German approval. He came through Germany to Eussia from Switzerland, and he was very profuse in his distribution of money thereafter ; and, as I said this morning, I think that was with a view of promoting the objective that he had in view all the time, which was a world-wide social revolution. Senator Nelson. Was it not strange that he had so much money, being one of the convicts released from Siberia under the Czar's government ? Mr. Francis. I think he had been in prison under the Czar's government. Senator Nelson. Was not one of the mistakes of the Kerensky government that they opened the doors to all political prisoners, criminals, and everything else ? Mr. Francis. Yes ; they did that, and permitted them all to return. Senator Nelson. And they have returned to plague them? Mr. Francis. Yes. Senator Sterling. And the demotion of the officers in the army ? Mr. Francis. And the demotion of the officers, and the abolition of the death penalty. You know, when Kerensky became minister of war, or after he became president, I do not know which, he issued a decree abolishing the previous decree, or revoking the former decree, i^hereby he had put an end to the death penalty. Senator Sterling. Yes. Mr. Francis. I heard him making a speech in the Marensky Theater. He is a great orator. A man from the gallery interrupted him, " What about the revocation of that decree abolishing the death penalty ? " He paid no attention to that. The man repeated it three or four times. Finally he said, pointing up to the man, " Wait until I condemn a man to death." That meant that he was not going to condemn anybody to death. That destroyed discipline in the army. Senator Nelson. As a matter of fact, did not the Trotsky-Lenine government, the Bolshevik government, after they came into power, do all they could to disintegrate the Eussian army and demoralize it ? Mr. Francis. They undoubtedly did. Senator Nelson. And put it out of fighting capacity? Mr. Francis. They undoubtedly did. Senator Nelson. Under their cry, " Peace, bread, and land ? " Mr. Francis. Yes. Senator King. What contribution, if any, did they make in a material way toward helping Germany and Austria after the treaty of Brest-Litoysk ; that is to say, by furnishing them men, money, or supplies ? Mr. Francis. They did not furnish them any men, except that they had a general exchange of prisoners. Germany and the central empires demanded that the prisoners should be exchanged man for man. Now, to nations at peace that is very unjust. In other words, the central empires should have sent back all the Eussians and Eus- sia should have sent back all the Germans and Austrians ; but Ger- many and Austria — especially Germany — had an excess of war prison- ers over what Eussia had, so they demanded that the prisoners be ex- changed man for man, and consequently the excess of prisoners that 97.4 BOLSHEVIK ^EEOEAGANDA.- Germanyaiij^ Austria held ovQr what Russia h^^d- of German Aiid Aa|trian waTc^pngoners^AYere retained there fp- do, work in Germaiiy. 'Senator ^QisTG^ 'To add .to her industrial capacity? '• .' _;' 'Mr. FEAKCis.'^e.as to perinit the iiidustfial workers to go to tBp western front. T spoke'to a subordinate ofilciaLnamed Vosnosenaki^ and he admitt6d„that- that was true, but he said,," We liaven't any' power over those men"" ;"and. the Germans .and tlie AustiiaDsfinsiijted. upon those prisoners who were exchanged,, being"' able-bodied men,^ and. in exchange for. able-bodied men theyi 'sent;^back Baissians .w^o were ifiValids. . . ''"" , .., •' , '' ,. , '"t Senator Nelsok. Exchanging disaijled Russians for souad Ger-', mans? .:. „ .,.,.. ... ..j- - ...,., - .m ' Mr. Feakcis. Exchan^ng disabled Russians for sound Ge'rmaiis. ^Senator KixGi Whi(|h enabled them to keep se;veral,}n^9ced tlioii-- sand. able-bodied RtlssiWsTi^,t5er^ to aid the. industrial wbik.?., ■'Mr. ' Feancis. Exactly." There was no inconsisteiic'y jp that,'.iis" such has been German practices for .th.e. last 2'5year5.^ AsTreiriarked this mornirig., .German}' lias^eeh.exploiting Russia fdr,3'QLar fO'yeajis. and if thfs Bolshgvik government is left m contf 9I-, -if ^disprd^r pi)e- vails,, jij, Russia, peaci will te injip.p,^}?lg. in Eiiroj^^ ,J.:iliihk Gjei- man.y'witl exploit Russia if .the disoi'ger is' kllpwed^tp cpntiriuetthei-ie ; so.tSat Getinan^j^^inatead.Q^TiAyiiig |jee-^i 'd,e|eategiripj|his .\j'a'r,/^iU h>v,e,^^ined a .Viciorj^^"ancV..wiliCbe st^pjb^^ shXwfig'*'af ';the'j3''eginjiin|'; ot Jh,e '^ap;';;t; C". , i^',::'^^^^ \': _ - :. -, ^ ' :,, ,; , ' Senator NiELsoSr. Dplyc^ii .not- r^^ga^a iJiisLBplgJje^lf gg'^ernrn^sut iii Russia as a menace to the peace of "Eui^ope?",'.-^!^' ll'j..";^'^,^,- "..^'^J,^ ,„^r.^J^]^4Nci§. I regard is ,as.,a.mgD[|ice„tQ tfp^,peape'Qf^Eu|^e'';a^d aji^ei^ce to thje.p^ace oj? tha LW0|l;q.7 "■ T"'„.' '-w' _', -. ."^ '-^- 7- LSj^Vtbr Nsiispis^^A.^ipen^.'c'e^'t^^^ the^worl^ r ^^n^^ ^^^'^S lidyfe caii .He',aii.';'etf&/^ gtn'ernment'jst ehmxnajte^ ... :,^,, , .^. . ., _, .^^..„^r •- ,.5 ^,- .-.-■■': --,.-•-■ Mr. TTkakcis., r thmk' iiLQt,*I^TKa|/is''iny.;"|g,^ih£ntj derived froni- two'!y'ea^.an'd:eight.mohths7j|^' ■'^■i^^' -'• "^'ould he there' still iiinj.liealth'jaermitte'S.V' 'j^^,r ^ , -^-.f "''. ^\ Senator" N^LSQx.;- Do \yQU- Beli'eYe...tliat 'piif Gbvernmerit. ajud the.. allies.ar^,.}iistified jnllielping .jiherR'tissian. people get rid of that Bpl-' shevik go'vernment? ' " .". - _ _ ^_ %;^ .. _- ".r Mr. Frakcis. You ar& asking.' a question of policj' nb.w that I (Jo not feel like answering." " "'" ' " ' '-- " ." ,,( Senator .Oversian. We willr'not press it,' but I will ask you.tliis question: Suppose we removed the allied troops from that country,, what would happen ? —j - -,-:-- , -'" -to;.i .' ' ]\Ir..FkAxcia..I think the.p'ussians^in'.the. zones ^pccupied B'y^alll<|d, troops would all b.e mui-dered by. the^Botsheviki. Mr. Simmons te%^T tified to that hereV I saw his statement when I was in PaTis. .^enator 0a'ee3Ian. . Yes. , He told .ais. that. Twant to know what ybu'.tliink about it. "7".:- "".,...-..,- •- — ' .■,.^ .-i..^^- r--- ' . Mr. Feancis. I ihink so, .undeUlijLedly. .-Wliy;",A?^^QifTwas gom| to leave Archangel .on the 1,4th of .'Pctpber, as I haO^plgEimed when I could walk — that was before J. gotrinto the conditioh^where I had tp^ he carried, on a stretcher— there 'was almost a panic in Archangel because theyL'th,QUght-my xiepartiir4 meant the leaving of all the American troops ^ and then they .said they would be-at the mercy ^ of the.,BoisheYiks. 7Tb.erefo're I. stayed there three weeks longej.. 975i, The Bolsheviks now number various thousands.of peopje that th^y KaJWJ;Otf,;pim|^gredt)etQi;e;i, .:^p«„understand thafihS BtolsTxeVrki'-tire iip|,ne^^y, 3^s,mimep^us ,,as,,tJ;iey-w^fe/:^out the' other Kandp\thei|'pfiijy;'i5"s ,^l;r,ong^ji-^, bgfel&et as i^'said; I'ftls, iiiortf =■ ing, they have Chinese, tney have Eetts,''arifl they^liavfe'fcoyscrip^eid' fl§eoat(5r $TJEELipjG/.'J[s.it7igi''p^^^ to, the pay the soldiers' now'; g^t-lmder, Bolshevist irule? -x'.: '^tr ^jir-.,. i.n: '■- i;_i ■ n-itii- - '. -.V ■^Mr. Francis; W«11, the Chinese were induced to go into their ij a}|i};^/bjy, Ibein^: starved.'; There is no food for anybody who does ^ not join tlie army! ' '' ' ' ■' ■ ^ "', ^, ,-*'V'' ^^^''"!,'-' Senator Nelson., They were the men who liad bae'rf employed, in'' building the Muf hiin 'Mirdrfd,' W£re t^liey-^iiot f '-^1 ■si-::^^'- - "-^>'- "Mr. -If^ftiNcrS. There"-werfe ' ' 4'0(),eoe '-■CM'nei^' laborers "'m'- Rus^ia^'lt was estimatecTwhegQ I ^-ent th'6fe"rlf''19lB'; ahd I do not'kn0W'-ho'#- niajiy of them went Jjack to thfiir native .country, but I know the#e^" ai-e-'f eirs' 'of ^thoils Jrii,as*o J 'tUmr iti'1;fie'' fiofeh'evik: -xarmySJi^^^Mf? '^ Tl^y w|4,*^*"i>^^"^6i-e bec4iTse:tl^%,%ituId^iiot*'^ l^od' oth®=^i.sS"*?iFt5w t^eBb'l§he^'lk~goveriii'hellt,"'a's f'^aSd Ellis'' forenoon'-' Wf)¥fhting ii.aa^ at the rii.te„of .^0.,.0Op.,L t^Qn^ly^^feejoirtg;;^!© 'a course mey ean'atfoMfc'pay ahy'^agSi'^^fall-riesnice^SSry^ „Sen^tqr King. That is pure fiat money, of ccrArs'e ?., ''-'''^ .E£r:;"fTj eao Bpij^\^^^^:; '"j^nd^llo lhe|hs';ir^;^i'oyM its redi^ihption,^''- t£^ vkioij. tickets. Fii'st^the spkliersf'theV^the'iiien wHo'-jviJrK-Witlf-tlMf'' haidaah^. work 'ei;ght hoifrs 'a d'ay.;'.ihten'^th^ rtlep who d??li'gHt'-wo-rk ; then tlie intelligentsia^that'is the pfofessions.^ You aii'd-F'wButf be^- callecl intelligentsia if we were oyer there. -.. ,^ ,2&i)q,.:::ais ;;SenaIoivJ''^i?i^ON.rAndlthen the ' capitalists?' ;;- ,^" '-"" '' "^-'^ ■:'■"-''' Mr. Francis. 'The Capitalists have "nofie: '''--■"■?"■- "^ :-i;^-"'.":f:".:L~:;'i, -3,en^tor. NJELSON.^Tliey get nonel ..,„^^. , , - yczs^ ^rs :.i, ■- Mr. TiJANOi^sJ They, get n-oh;e. '■ ' r;'V:i\;.";!''[/^':. ;':':t-c.'.-i t ■>:>[ Senator 'King. You mentioned the''troo3JS;'''.A^e' there not' some''' Austrians and some Germans in the Bolshevik army ? :-,'" "-' "' .Mj,,..^^RA?>fC.i§._I think there are._ ._^I have h'ad adviees-froni'(|ur consul general at Irkutsk, Mr. Harris; Snxl from our consuls throug|n- out .Siberjf),,,- stating , that thei:e .^were.^ Gernian"^a;nd';:Aus-fcrian "soldiers'' in the'raiiks of the 'Bolshevild." ' I'Mf- 'wer4 Undfeiihtec^^^ German officers.. . Xhe American .troops were sent clo-vVfi ftbinJAr|!h-^ aiiger.tow;ar doing everything in their power to aid Russia ? Mr. Francis. They were doing everything in their power. But Germany had her spies around and was exerting very great influence under the provisional government, as she was under the Imperial Government. Now, Germany sent me a million and a half rubles a month to aid the civilians who were interned. I had 30 or 35 em- bassy delegates who were going around distributing this money, and I sent for one of them one day and said, " How do you distribute this money ? " He said, " Why. I have a committee of interned civilians who know their colleagues, and I go to this committee and give them, we will say, 50,000 rubles, and I have them give me a receipt for it." BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 979 I said, " How do they distribute it, per capita ^ " He said, " Yes." I said, " Eegardless of whether the recipients need the money or not— need relief or not ? " You know there were many rich Germans who had been interned. He said, " Yes ; I think they do that." I said, " You tell that committee in your jurisdiction that I think that is wrong, and that if they distribute tlie money by that system I will not send them any more." He came back two weeks from that time, and he said, " The chairman of m}- committee is a rich man from Riga. He was a German banker before the wai. He was interned. He said Germany makes no discrimination between her subjects; that if 30 rubles Avill not relieve suffering 40 rubles a month will, and that if 40 rubles will not suffice, 50 rubles will." I said, " Until I have instructions from Germany to that effect, you will tell this committee to give this money only to the people who need it." He went down and told him. But soon after that I ceased to represent Germany, and I do not know what system they were pursuing. Ger- many sent me a million and a half rubles a month to distribute among these 300,000 German civilians who were interned. Austria sent about 600.000 rubles a month also. I had a relief division, called the second division, that had charge of that relief work. But I never was so relieved in my life as when we severed diplcmatic relations with Germany, because it relieved me of my responsibility. Senator Ki>;g. When Lenine and Trotsky gc!t the control of the Kerensky Government, what did they do with the representatives of that govei'nment '( They killed them or drove them away ? ilr. Fran'cis. Imprisoned them. The morning of the 7th of Xo- vember Kerensky had left Petrograd. and the ministers had met that afterncon in the A^'inter Palace where Kerensky had lived. It was surrounded by Bolshevik soldiers and Eed guards. They surrendered about 2.15 the next morning. Senator Steeling. Kerensky had escaped. Mr. Francis. Kerensky had escaped. He was the only minister that escaped. Senator Nelson. Is he alive yet'^ Mr. Francis. Yes; he is alive now. Senator Nelson. Where is he 1 Mr. Francis. He is in some town in England near London, writ- ing a book, I am told. I saw Miliukov. Miliukov had resigned some time before that. You know he had been forced to resign by Kerensky. He called upon me in London. He was sent out of Russia because he had been affiliating with the Germans down in the Ukraine, when he was at Kiev. He explained that to me. I thought Miliukov was a very patriotic Russian. He said that the Germans had sent an officer to him to know if he would accept a proposition to ged rid of the Bolsheviks, and he replied that he would, pro- vided they would set aside the Brest-Litovsk treaty. He said the officer replied to him that he thought that was impossible, but that he would report it at Berlin. So he returned to him in about three weeks at Kiev, and said that the Germans would not set aside the Brest-Litovsk treaty at all. So Miliukov told me that from that time he had no more negotiations with the Germans. Miliukov was minister of foreign affairs. He was leader of the Cadet party, a very able man. 980 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. What became of the other members of the Kerensky govermnent? Mr. Francis. I saw Prince Lvoff and Kanovalov in Paris at a luncheon that was given me on the Monday before the Friday on which I left, and Terestchenko is in Norway. I do not know what became of the others. Gutchkov is down in the Crimea, I think, or possibly with Kolchak or Denekin in the Ukraine. Senator Nelson. What became of the Grand Duke Nicholas, who commanded the army at one time? Mr. Francis. I think he is in the Crimea or the Caucasus, I do not know which. He is strongly anti-German. Senator Nelson. And a very able general? Mr. Francis. A very able man, and a very able general, too. Senator King. Mr. Ambassador, what do you say as to the methods of the Bolsheviki — and that is the principal object of this committee to ascertain — employed by the Bolsheviki to carry on propaganda ? Mr. Francis. They have been distributing Bolshevik literature among all the armies of the allied nations, and they have not spared our army. They have been distributing Bolshevik literature among the Czecho-Slovaks, among Denekin's army, among Krasnov's army, and among Kolchak's army. They are preaching Bolshevik doc- trines to the peasants all over Russia ; but the peasants have become disgusted with them because they have taken the peasants' grain without paying for it. They offered to pay sometimes in these rubles that they have printed off, but the peasants do not take them. Senator King. Paper rubles? Mr. Francis. Paper rubles. I sent my man out to have my glasses repaired one day in Archangel, and I said, " I Avant these glasses back the next day — to-morrow." Well, he said he took them to the optical man and he said, " How long will it take you to repair these glasses ? " The man replied, " Ten days." He asked him what the cost would be, and he said, " Ten rubles." They were reading glasses — spectacles. He said, " I will give you 10 rubles extra if you will have them done to-morrow. The owner wants them." "No; he can not have them done in that time." But he gave the man tiiree cigarettes and they were done the next day. Senator O^tirman. Did you hear anything of the action of the Czecho-Slovaks in shooting Russians — shooting Bolsheviki or shoot- ing anybody? Mr. Francis. Yes; I heard that they did not take any prisoners of the Bolsheviks because the Bolsheviks had disarmed . them under false pretenses; that is, had promised them that if they would lay down their arms they would be given the right of way out of Russia. Instead of that they were shot. So they got hold of arms somewhere, and I heard it said that they did not take any Bolshevik prisoners. I do not know whether Kolcifiak, now their commander, permits that or not. Senator Nelson. Now the anti-Bolshevik forces practically have control of the Siberian Railroad as far west as Omsk? Mr. Francis. As far west as Perm. Perm is about 1,200 miles east of Vologda. The distances over there are immense, you know. You talk about Murmansk and Archangel as if they were very near together, but they are 500 miles apart. BOIiSHKVTK PROPAGANDA. 981 Senator Nelson. Murmansk is on the Kola Peninsula? Mr. Francis. Yes ; it is on the Kola Peninsula, and the Gulf Stream and is never closed in winter. Senator King. Mr. Ambassador, I was asking about propaganda. Along that same line, what are they doing, so far as you know, about international propaganda, and do you loiow of their spending money for sending persons abroad to carry on a Bolshevik propaganda ? Mr. Francis. I only know what I have heard. I have not met any of those people, but I believe they are sending their agents down into Germany and Austria and England and France ; and they are sending money over here to propagandize for Bolshevism. Senator Nelson. There is said to be a Finn in New York who is the head of a propaganda bureau in this country. What is his name ? Mr. Humes. Nuorteva, the Finnish ambassador. Mr. Francis. I do not know him at all. Senator King. Eadek, as you stated this morning, was in Ger- many and has been there for some time. Do you know anything about the amount of money which he used for propaganda purposes in Germany? Mr. Francis. I do not. I saw it estimated at 30,000,000 rubles. Senator King. Do you know of the Russian representative sent there by Lenine and Trotsky being exiled from Switzerland because of his propaganda — his attempt to spread Bolshevism ? Mr. Francis. Being exiled from Germany ? Senator King. From Switzerland? Mr. Francis. Yes; I saw that in the papers, but I do not know anything about it. Senator King. I did not know but that you learned something of it in Paris from the representatives of the iSwiss Government. Mr. Francis. The Swiss Government has no representatives in the Paris conference, because Switzerland was not in the war. Senator King. I notice that Denmark's representative, Mr. Sca- venius. has been withdrawn Mr. Francis. I know him, personally. Senator King (continuing) . From Russia recently, and he told of the atrocities and cruelties that are perpetrated in Russia — at Petro- grad — under Bolshevik Russia. Mr. Francis. I think he is a very reliable man. He was reprer sentative of a neutral power, Denmark, and consequently was re- maining in Petrograd when I left. I understand that he and his wife did very material relief work there. He was called before the Paris Peace Conference. Senator King. He testified before them ? Mr. Francis. And he gave a horrible account of the conduct of the Bolsheviks. In Petrograd he said they were dying by the thou- sands from starvation. He said when a horse would drop on the street from hunger the populace would surround that horse and cut it up for food. I have understood that for six weeks past the city of Petrograd has had little but oats to live on, and not sufficient of that cereal. Senator King. Do you know anything about the efforts now being; made by the Bolsheviks to destroy the incipient governments of the Baltic provinces and of Poland ? 982 -'.: BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Francis. I only know what I have seen in the papers about it. I am satisfied that they are doing it. They were increasing their forces against this Archangel government when I left> there, and have been increasing their forces ever since. Senator Steeling. Speaking of propaganda, Ambassador Fran- cis, do you recall the Root Mission ? Mr. Francis. Oh, very well, indeed. I introduced that mission to all the officials in Petrograd. I had been there more than a year when the Root Mission came. Senator Sterling. Do you lecall any propaganda following the A'isit of the Root Mission, by means of cartoons, representing Mr. Root in a somewhat ridiculous light, printed in an American paper and then reproduced and circulated there? Mr. Francis. Yes; I saw that. I do not know that the Russians could understand that, however. They caricatured Mr. Root as a corporation lawyer ; was not that it ? Senator Nelson. Yes. Senator Sterling. Do you know from what paper it was repro- duced ? Mr. Francis. I do not. I think it was some Bolshevik publica- tion in New York. [Laughter.] I do not recall the name of it. Senator Steeling. Was it the New York Evening Journal, Mr. Ambassador? Mr. Francis. That was a lapsus linguae. I did not mean to say a Bolshevik jDaper in the United States. I meant that it was a Bol- shevik paper in Russia. I do not know what paper it appeared in first. I did not know why you were amused. Senator King. Mr. Ambassador, is there anything else that you feel that you want to state, keeping in mind the fact that we want to confine our investigation to efforts of the Bolsheviki to carry on propaganda ? Mr. Francis. I think you have asked me all that I can think of on that subject. Senator Steeling. Just one question I would like to ask of you. Mr. Francis. Col. Robins yesterday gave a very vivid account of the way in which he got out of Russia, the accommodations which were afforded him. the rapid transit through Siberia, with all con- veniences afforded him and no searching of any kind, not even re- quiring him to show any passports anywhere on the whole route, and he described the trip as being made in extraordinarily rapid time. Can you account for that ? Mr. Francis. Yes; it is very easily accounted for. The Bolshevik government, or the so\'iet government, whatever you may call it. wired ahead to give him the right of way, because he was persona grata, as I have told you. Senator Nelson. They looked upon him as their friend? Mr. Feancis. They looked upon him as their friend ; and I learned afterwards that he was the bearer of communications from the soviet government to our Government here. In fact, he told me that he had an order from, Trotsky — ^^I think it was from Trotsky ; if not, it was at Trotslry's instigation and signed by the minister of ways and com- munications — ^that his messages sent by wire should have the right of way. Senator Nelson. He was getting more privileges than you werfe? f~ BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 983 Mr. Francis. Well, I was not getting any. That reminds me of an order that was issued by the soviet gov- ernment that all of the telegrams sent by our consuls through Siberia and Russia generally should be in clear ; they must not be in cipher. That was an unheard-of proceeding, and I think our consul general at Moscow protested against it. I received after that an unciphered message from our Consul Caldwell, who was in Vladivostok, saying that he had been notified secretly to bring his messages to a certain place unciphered, when they would be sent to me in cipher. I immediately wired him that if the same privilege was not ex- tended to the British, French, Italian, and the Japanese, who were our allies, not to take advantage of the offer, unless it was extended to all of our allies. I also wired the department that I had done so, and the department immediately replied to me that they had given him the same instructions that I had, upon receipt of the informa- tion. Now, my idea of fidelity to our allies is to take advantage of no privileges. Senator Sterling. That they did not have? Mr. Francis. That they did not have — that are not extended to them. Senator King. Did j-ou know Mr. Treadwell, one of our consuls? Mr. Francis. Very well. Senator King. He is still imprisoned by the Bolsheviks? . Mr. Francis. I think he is under surveillance in his residence, and the paper stated the other day that the British would release a com- missar in exchange for Treadwell. . Senator King. He has been under restraint for a good many months by the Bolsheviks? Mr. Francis. Yes. Senator King. Brutally treated? Mr. Francis. Brutally treated. Senator King. Did you know Mr. Childs in Petrograd? Mr. Francis. I knew him very well. Senator King. A very high-class American, who was starved the other day. Mr. Francis. He was starved the other day. I knew Mr. Childs from the time I first went there. He was the Western Union repre- sentative there, and he had 30,000 rubles when I left Petrograd, which I thought would keep him from starvation ; but he was advanced in years, and a very delicate man anyway. They starved a Frenchman to death there — a very prominent man who had lived in Russia 18 years — named Darcy. He was put in prison and released just before he died. Senator King. Did you know the British officer who was murdered by the Bolsheviks in the British Embassy? Mr. Francis. I did ; knew him well. That was Capt. Cromy. He was in his embassy one evening when the Bolshevik soldiers entered and demanded to make a search. There was no one in there with him but the three Bolshevik soldiers. He killed two of them before they killed him, I understood. The British commissioner at Archangel told me that the British Government had notified Lenine and Trotsky that they would be pursued after the war ; that no government could give, them refuge, on account of this. , Senator Overman. Did you know Mr. Ray, United. States consul? 984 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Feaxcis. Oh, yes; I knew him. He served under me. He is here now. Senator Sterling. In Washington? Mr. Francis. Yes; in Washington. He was in this room this morning, was he not? Senator Nelson. Is he here now? Mr. Francis. He is here now. He was the consul at Odessa, was he not ? He came to Petrograd, and I sent him to Chita. Mr. Bailey. That is correct. Mr. Francis. I was surprised to learn that he was here. Senator Overman. Do you know when he returned? Is Mr. Ray here? Mr. Ray. Yes, sir; I am here. Mr. Francis. Come up here, Mr. Ray. Senator Overman. When did you get back here, Mr. Ray ? Mr. Ray. I arrived in Washington just before Christmas. I have been down at my home in Texas, and came back last week. Senator Nelson. When did you leave Russia? Mr. Ray. I left Vladivostok the 2d of November. Mr. Francis. When did you leave Chita ? Mr. Ray. I was never in Chita ; I was in Tomsk. Mr. Francis. That is right. Mr. Ray. I have been through Chita, but I never stopped there. Senator Overman. I just wanted to identify you. Proceed, Mr. Francis. Senator King. Did you know a man named Rhys Williams ? Mr. Francis. I have met him. I met him once. I understand that he testified before this committee the other day. Senator King. Did you know him in Russia? Mr. Francis. I met him once there. He came to me with, and I think he was introduced to me by, Mr. Harper — Dr. Samuel N. Harper — who testified before this committee the other day. He was the second witness, I think. I understand that Rhys Williams does not deny that he is a Bolshevik in sentiment. He was a Congrega- tional minister at first, and he was recommended to me as a corre- spondent of the Evening Post, of New York, I think. Senator King. Do you know whether he had any contact with the Bolsheviks in Russia? Mr. Francis. Oh, yes; it was a matter of common knowledge. Senator King. Associated with them, spoke at their meetings, and so on? Mr. Francis. He was associated with them and advocated their principles, and he issued one Sunday morning an address through the Russian press calling for volunteers ' to organize an army of non- Eussians to promote the Bolshevik cause. Senator King. I have no further questions. Mr. Humes. Governor, there is a provision in the soviet constitu- tion that provides that all of the political rights of Russian citizen- ship shall be given to all foreigners who are resident in Russian ter- ritory. Do you know whether or not persons who were citizens of this country and of other countries, and who went to Russia and became a part of the soviet government, became Russian citizens by virtue of their connection with the government under that provision of the constitution? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 985 Mr. Francis. I do not know. I never heard of any man who was foolish enough to expatriate himself from American citizenship and become a Eussian under Bolshevik rule. John Reed was appointed consul general of the Bolshevik government, to be stationed in New York; but they withdrew that appointment when I told Eobins to say to them that he would never be recognized. iMr. HtJMES. Is there any requirement by virtue of which a man must become a citizen of Russia before he can become an official of the soviet government ? Mr. Francis. I do not know that there is. But, if so, he can become a citizen of Russia merely by expressing a desire to do so — an inten- tion of doing so. Mr. Humes. My point is, Governor, that there was a possibility under that provision of the constitution that a number of these American citizen who had participated in the soviet government may have renounced their American citizenship by becoming affili- ated with that government, and I wondered if you had any infor- mation on that subject. Mr. Francis. No; I have not. If I had I should have communi- cated it to the State Department long since. Senator King. As I understood you this morning, you did com- municate with the State Department, protesting against so many coming over from the United States, all of whom, or most of whom, participated in the Bolshevik government ? Mr. Francis. I think I did. If I did not, it was a very great dereliction on my part. Mr. Bailey. You did. I recall it. Senator King. Were not some of those men, against whose advent you were protesting, Americans; for instance, that man from Buf- falo — Reinstein ? Mr. Francis. Yes. He was an American citizen. But I think he was in Russia before I knew of it — before I knew he was coming. I protested against issuing passports to those agitators. I remember now very well, Mr. Bailey. Senator Overman. We are very much obliged to you. Mr. Francis. I am very much interested in the subject, gentlemen, and I apologize for not being able to stay here next week. Senator Nelson. We are very much obliged to you. Mr. Francis. Senator Nelson and I first served together 22 years ago. He was Senator from Minnesota when I was Secretary of the Interior, in the Cleveland administration. Senator Nelson. And I had a good deal of business with Secre- tary Francis. Mr. Francis. Yes, you did; and I found you a very efficient Sen- ator, and I hear you are still. Senator Sterling. We corroborate that, sir. Senator Overman. So do we all, TESTIMONY OF MR. OLIVER M. SAYLER— Resumed. Senator Overman. Proceed, Mr. Sayler. Mr. Sayler. To resume my testimony of this morning, I arrived in Moscow during the Bolshevik revolution, probably the bloodiest epoch of hostility in the greatest revolution thus far. No one has 986 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. • ever been able to estimate the number of lives lost in Moscow at that time, but the most conservative estimate run from 1,500 to 2,500, in- cluding Bolsheviks, cadets, the military students serving in defence of the Kerensky forces, and civilians; because, as you know, street fighting in a city the size of Moscow, which is almost as large as Chicago, is no kindergarten affair. I myself saw 500 red cofBns carried and buried in one grave, the contribution in dead of the Bolsheviki in this affair; and that was not all, because the funeral was held a full week after. The other public funerals were held even later, and the number of bodies carried in line in these funerals is no criterion of the loss of life. Within a week after my arrival, however, things settled down to a kind of order, a land of normal life, which existed throughout the winter, a kind of desultory disorder and warfare, but the best order, apparently, that could be maintained under the conditions, under the dictatorship of one class over all the other classes, because of course that, as you know, is the heart and soul of the situation over there to-day. Within two weeks after I arrived in Moscow I found a home with a Kussian millionaire. Living conditions in Moscow were about as difficult at that time as they have been in Washington the last year. If you could not get any place else to sleep you slept in the station. I slept in the station the first night that I arrived. I found evi- dence everywhere that Russians were glad to have Americans on their premises for the sake of the safety that it would bring them. I must say, without giving credit to any Russian individual or any Russian class or any party, that Americans, as long as I was in Russia, were more highly regarded and more cordially received and had more privileges extended to them than any other class of people. That is true in respect to any class of Russians, and also true as to any other group of foreigners. Why that is so there is no use of going into now, but it is more or less gratifying. As I say, I. entered the home of this Russian millionaire and made my home there as long as I was in Moscow, also using his private room in connection with his offices in Petrograd while I was in Petro- grad. He had two sons, both of them moderate socialists, as I am, all of us thoroughly believing in violent political revolution when necessary, but believing just as firmly in evolution instead of revolu- tion along social lines, and, therefore, opposed bitterly and un- alterably to the use of force by the Bolsheviki to gain their ends. Senator Steeling. And if you can not get it by evolution, then by armed force and violence ? Mr. Saylee. No ; I have too much faith in the forward looking of humanity to think that force is ever necessary. Senator Overjiax. We do not want your views in the matter. Mr. Saylee. I simply gave you those facts to give you the atmos- phere under which I lived in Russia. Senator Nelson. As I understand it, you are an evolutionary socialist? Mr. Saylee. Yes. Senator Nelson. Who financed you to go over there? Mr. Saylee. I paid it out of my own pocket. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 987 Senator Nelson. '\Miat did you want to go over there for? You did not go as a representative of a newspaper. Mr. Saylek. I had a curiosity as to what was going on in what to me was the most interesting part of the world. Senator Nelson. Did you not know that we had an ambassador there, as well as consuls? Mr. Saylee. Yes ; and I was on cordial terms with them all, I be- lieve I can say. Senator Overjian. Go ahead and tell us the facts. Mr. Saylek. Let me group these facts, and I think it will save time. I want to group my facts as to what I saw in Russia, the con- ditions I left here, under two heads; one, those which seem to indi- cate an utter demoralization of all of the civilized forces in Russian life; and the other, those facts which indicate a persistence of a cer- tain kind of order in Russian life, in spite of it all. In this home where I lived there were 6 people in the family and 7 servants, and it took the 7 servants all of their time to find food enough for the 13, so that in spite of the fact that I had all the com- forts of a rich and i^alatial home, I had to scrape around for my own food. Senator Nelson. Do you not think they would have saved some- thing by dismissing some of these servants instead of keeping seven ? Mr. Saylee. Senator, I personally know that when I was there all seven of the servants were busy finding food for the 13 of them. I do not know what the result would have been otherwise. Senator Nelson. But you being a socialist, I thought you would have an easy way of getting food. Mr. Saylee. I do not believe in easy ways of doing anything in human life. Senator. Senator King. Go ahead. Mr. Saylee. I mention that fact simply to show that I saw the Russian food situation as the normal Russian saw it. I had none of the advantages for getting food from the embassy, as I have been told other Americans did in Petrograd. I was in Moscow and the embassy was in Petrograd. I had, moreover, to face the problem of money in an unfortunate way, and that gave me an even closer insight into the way the ordi- nary Russian had to look at life last winter, because I had sent only enough of my money ahead of me to Petrograd. with the ruble descending in value all the time, to keep me until I could find out how long I was going to stay, and then I could cable my father to send me more of my money. By the time I reached Russia it was impossible to have any kind of international exchange along those lines, so that the money that I had with me had to last me, and I found by inquiry that that money averaged for the time that I found I was going to stay to make my observations, about the income, of the average Russian. To rfive you just a concrete idea of what food meant to the aver- age Russian and to me, I arose in the morning, drank five glasses of tea to persuade my stomach that I had had something to eat, and then took one-half of a quarter of a Russian pound, three and three-quar- ters ounces and not four, of bread — half of that with my tea — and I started out on my day's work with that, and I waited as long as I felt I could and keep at my work, until late in the afternoon 988 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. What made food so scarce? You have described it. NoTv, what made food so scarce? Mr. ISatlee. Senator, that is a long story. It goes away back into the unreadiness of a country like Russia to endure a long war. Rus- sia was hungry the winter of 1916 and 1917, before the Czar fell, and a million men deserted from the army before the Czar fell. Those are facts which were established before I came into Russia — facts which I have never seen in our papers published at that time. I took particular occasion, after I got back, to look back over the files and find whether or not those facts were acknowledged. It was probably felt, in order to keep up the morale and allied sentiment, that those things had better be kept from the public. I do not ques- tion that ; I only state that as a fact. Senator Overman. This millionaire, he had plenty of money to divide with you ? Mr. Satuer. Let me tell you where his money was, and how he was fixed on that. That will give you a concrete idea of what I have put a little later in my list here, of the demoralizing conditions, and that is the condition of finance. This millionaire, as I remember it, had several enterprises in which he was interested. He had a ten thou- sand-acre estate out near Smolnief. That was near the line of the German advance. They later advanced, and the estate was overrun by the Germans, and while I was there and before the Germans made that advance the peasants took that estate. Senator Nelson. That was right, according to your notion, was it not? Mr. Saylee. No ; I beg your pardon. Senator. It was Senator Nelson. Was not that according to the socialistic plan? Mr. Sayler. It was violent, mj- dear Senator. I object to vio- lence. Senator Nelson. No ; but he was living with you in Petrograd, and those peasants went there and occupied his land. Was not that socialistic? Mr. Satler. It was violent socialism, and I object to violence. I insist that everything shall be done by law passed by the majority will of the people. Senator Nelson. Oh ; go on, then. Go on. Mr. Satler. Thank you. To go back to this host of mine, this millionaire as you call him, he had this 10,000-acre estate, which was taken by the peasants. For a time it was run in an orderly manner. They had hogs that they wanted to sell. They knew that it was time to sell them. They were in proper condition. Those hogs were sold and the money was -kept in trust by one of them for the owner of the estate, so that if by any future act the estate should be turned back to him he could have it. If not — if their tenure of the land was maintained — then the money would be divided among them. That was all very well at the start; but when you start to using force and violence to accomplish any social change, then, my dear Senators, as I see it and as this incident worked out finally, you descend from the days of comparative idealism like that to the days when you are shooting and killing each other, as they were before I left. The reports came from the estate. Senator King. Starting with violence, the violence continues and mcreases in order to perpetuate their system? BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 989 Mr. Saylee. Yes; that is the way I see it. That is true, no matter who rises up against whom. If we had a socialist government acknowledged by the will of the majority and people should rise up in force against it, you would have more and more violence and more and more violence. It is simply a by-product of revolution and of violence in any case. Violence breeds violence. The violence of the old autocracy in Russia bred the violence of to-day. It is simply cause and effect. The pendulum swings. Senator King. The same manifestation finds expression in Ger- many to-day. They had the autocracy of the Kaiser, and now they have had a fair election, so far as we can learn, men and women voting; but the minority are not satisfied, being tainted with this violent Bolshevism, and Spartacides added to the Bolshevikis who are there are fighting the form of government which was erected by the people themselves. Mr. Sayler. Yes. I think that was the result of the tyranny that existed in the past in Germany. The pendulum swings. To go on with the catalogue, briefly, of this man's activities, in addition to this estate, he had a factory at Yaroslav on the Volga Eiver, about half way between Yaroslav and Vologda. This factory was not in operation, but he had to keep on paying his working hands. How could he pay his working hands when the banks were closed — nationalized and closed? There has been a great deal said in the last two days, since I came to Washington, about the nation- alization of the banks, but the banks, for all effective operations, were also closed, and have been so since last Christmas. Senator King. Nationalization meant destruction? Mr. Saylee. It meant demoralization to such an extent that busi- ness could not be carried on. Business was carried on to this extent in the banks : If you could prove that you were paying, or in a way where you had to pay, workmen certain sums of money — certain wages— you would go to the financial secretary of the soviet and get his signature on your check — on your pay roll — and draw that money out of the bank, if you had it to your credit, of course ; and you could pay your hands under those conditions, and under those conditions only. Senator Steeling. Otherwise, was it confiscation of the money that a man had on deposit in the banks ? Mr. Saytj:e. I am unable to say just when, or whether, that was carried out. It was suggested, I know, in the newspapers, while I was there, that all sums over 25,000 rubles should be confiscated, and that all deposits less than 25,000 rubles should be respected; but whether that was ever carried out in any of the Soviet directorates I do not know. That brings me to the point where I can answer the Senator's question as to how this host of mine lived and how he made his way — how he bought food. His own money, according to our way ■of thinking, lay in the bank, but he could not touch it. There was any quantity of it. Senator King. Theoretically? Mr. Sayler. Theoretically. Senator King. But I suppose, as a matter of fact, it had really ibeen taken out by the Bolsheviki ? 990 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Saylek. Oh, yes: but the presses were printing more daily. Money in Eussia has no vahie, except as it ^iH buy something aiid passes on. It is a medium of exchange, purely. It is not a medium of international exchange. Senator Kixg. They had long ago taken out all of the metal money and put in printed money? Mr. Saylee. Yes ; if there ever was any there. Eussia, in four years of war, had probably exhausted a great deal of her metal-money supplies before they took the banks. At aaj rate, the scheme that this man had to use to get sufficient money in his pocket for -the purchase of the food he needed to consume was to pad his pay roll to such an extent that he was able to get enough of his own money out to carry on these oiDcrations. That he did, month by month. There were other direct and indirect methods of getting your money out of the banks. There are some of the most amusing stories that are well authenticated of ^^hat happened in the banks of Moscow. I do not know whether the Senators care to hear them or not. It gives some idea of the state of demoralization. For instance, one man — I am not able to substantiate this definitely, but it was common talk and was never denied — one man got the sig- nature of the financial secretary of the soviet to his check for o,()00 rubles for some purpose or other. I do not know what it was. That check be presented at a bank to the Bolsheviki clerk. That 5,000 rubles was handed over the counter to him and the check was not taken up. He picked up the 5,000 rubles and picked up the check and put them both in his pocket. I do not know whether the thought occurred to him as to what he might be able to do with them at the time, but before the next week came around a bright idea occurred to him. He took the check back to the bank again and got another 5,000 rubles on that same check, and again the check was left on the counter, and he picked it up, took the 5,000 rubles, and again went out. He repeated that over and over again until he had 100,000 rubles that he had drawn out of the bank on that one check for 5,000 rubles. Of course, that is simply scrambling things to the point where you can not ever straighten them out. There are other stories and details of that kind. That is simply a sample of the way that things went on in the way of finance. Money was printed day after tlay for whatever the govemment reeded for that day. No taxes could be collected, of course, under the prevailing disorder. I want to say light here and now something that I have not heard mentioned in the last two days' testimony. We talk about the Bol- shevid government, and we presume, apparenth', that the central authority in Moscow is exercising a certain amount of control and carrying out its decrees over a great part of Eussia, the parts which Avere somewhat definitely indicated by the ambassador a while ago, as you may remember ; but, as a matter of fact, as I found it, in Eus- sia, the Bolshevik power — the power of the soviet — whether the Bolsheviki control it in the given locality or not, extends only to the immediately contiguous territory ; and that, I think. Senator Xelson, answers a question that you asked one of the witnesses a while ago- as to the state of anarchy in Eussia; the question as to whether anarchy, as we know it, in that sense reigns. It does reign, becaii'^e there is no power than can enforce its decrees. BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 991 Senator King. This central body has no control over the local Soviets, and each local soviet runs itself ? Mr. Satlee. Each local soviet is getting along the best way it knows how. It is feeding itself the best way it knows how. If it finds it has not enough grain, and the soviet across the way has some, it goes ahead with the guns that it brought back from the front and goes over and takes it. That is not done every day, but it is the sort of thing that can happen. Senator Nelson. I want to indicate, in that respect, that I thinlt you are right about what you state now. Mr. Saylee. Now, in another sense, however, the calling of what is going on in Russia to-day a state of anarchy is very wrong, because those who maintain the appearance of power in the central places of authority, who represent to us what is the head of government, so called, in Russia to-day, are not anarchists, and I want to bring out later^ in an analysis which I would like, to give you of the propa- ganda methods of the Bolsheviki, just the difference between the Bol- sheviki and the anarchists. They are as different as you and I are from either one of them, I assure you. Senator Nelson. Is not the one assisting the other — cooperating? Mr. Saylee. I think I can bring that out, too. Senator Nelson. Is not one cooperating with the other — in the bosom of the other? Mr. Saylee. I can not answer that yes or no, Senator. I can bring that out clearly and with better effect at a later point, if you care to note it down and make sure that I do. Mr. Humes. We will remember it. Go on. Mr. Saylee. Very good. Senator Oveeman. What has become of this millionaire? Was that millionaire living there in style when you left ? Mr. Saylee. There was not much style. There is no style in hunger. Senator Oveeman. The Bolsheviki did not get after him ? Mr. Saylee. His place was requisitioned at least three times while I was there — twice by the Bolsheviki and once by the anarchists. He played the Bolsheviki off against the anarchists, and bought one or the other off at different times — I have forgotten the exact details of the matter — and as a result when I left Moscow on the 24th of March, on my 37-day trip out of Russia, he was still in this home. I have since had word from his brother, who is an American citizen and has been for 20 years, that he and his family were moving to Kiev. Senator King. For safety? Mr. Saylee. For safety and for food. Senator Nelson. Were you 37 days in getting out of Russia? Mr. Saylee. Thirty-seven days; yes, sir. Senator Nelson. By the Siberian Railroad? Mr. Saylee. By the Siberian Railroad. Senator Nelson. You were not as fortunate, then, as Col. Robins ? Mr. Saylee. We did not go at the same time. The man M-ho went before me 10 days or two weeks might have gone more rapidly or more slowly. There is no order or common sense or anything else about the v^ay things go on in Russia now, because the thing has gone into that chaos which comes inevitably with violent social revolution. Senator King. Mr. Witness, I suppose that Lenine and Trotsky, 992 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. wherever their troops are, exercise control over the local soviet by terror — by rifles? Mr. Satlee. Wherever the troops are they have their way if it is possible ; but I do not laiow that you can say that they have control over their troops, necessarily. Senator King. No. Mr. SayixEE. I am not prepared to say one way or the other about it. Mr. HujiEs. The local Soviets where the troops are are more likely to control them than the Lenine and Trotsliy government at Moscow ? Mr. Satlee. Certainly; far more. Senator King. Unless it is what might be denominated the national army, composed of Letts, Chinese, and hooligans. Mr. Sayler. If they are obeying their orders, and Senator King. They are taking orders now from Trotsky, who rides around on a horse as a military commander? Mr. Sayler. He did not. appear in public while I was there. I did not set eyes on him. Senator King. Proceed, and excuse the interruption. Mr. Sayler. I have touched on the demoralized condition as to food, and of course you can imagine what the condition of health must be with hunger stalking in the wake every day. Senator King. The statements, then, as to deaths from starvation are not overdrawn? Mr. Sayler. I think they are not overdrawn. Of my own per- sonal acquaintance I never knew anyone who died from starvation while I was in Eussia. Senator King. You left there a year ago? Mr. Sayler. No; I left Eugsian soil the 1st of ^ay. I left Mos- cow the end of March. Senator King. So that a great change has taken place since? Mr. Sayler. Things have gone from bad to worse. They could not help it. Senator King. So that the conditions are very much worse than when you were there. Mr. Sayler. Those conditions, as I tried to make perfectly clear, went back into the days of the Czar, because of the inability of a country like Eussia to face a long war. The seeds that are grow- ing into weeds to-day were planted away back there, and in that sense, gentlemen, please do not for a moment mistake me as defend- ing the Bolsheviki in this, because I think I can prove that I am, more unequivocally, by making this statement than if I did not make it. The Bolsheviki are a symptom and not altogether a cause. The fact that they have thrown Eussia into violent social revolution un- doubtedly puts upon them the burden of having caused a certain amount of the chaos which is going on in Eussia to-day; but there is at least as much blame to be thrown back on the old regime and its methods for allowing Eussia to get into the position where the Bolsheviki could come, as one of the disruptive and violent forces in Eussian life. I range hunger and the Bolsheviki side by side as the causes of the old regime Senator Kixc;. But the Bolsheviki stand as a dictatorship in the %'iew of the proletariat? Mr. Sayler. Yes ; Bolshevism is a desperate, fanatical attempt to solve a hopeless situation. !!l BOLSHEVIK PEOPAaANDA. 993 iSenator King. It is class warfare? Mr. Satler. It is class warfare. Senator King. It is a determination of one class, the proletariat, to get power, even if by doing so it exterminates all other classes ? Mr. Sayler. Yes; even if it by so doing exterminates. It would prefer to disrupt all other classes and make only one class in the com- munity. Senator King. It would prefer to have people to agree with its theory, failing which it would exterminate them ? Mr. Satuer. Yes. Senator Nelson. Do you believe in the Bolshevik system of gov- ernment as they have outlined it in their decrees, if it could be ac- complished without violence? Mr. Sayler. Not in the world to-day, Senator. They are not ready for it. I do not know whether the world will be ready for it in the next two or three generations. Senator Nelson. But you have some views that the world will somb time be ready for it Mr. Sayler. Ultimately, possibly; but it is a matter, to pie, of deciding what to do day by day in order to make our lives a little bit better and more efficient, a little bit more honest with our fellow men. Senator Nelson. Then you believe that there is a demand for the Bolsheviki system of government, and that it remains simply for the people to grow up to it ? Mr. Sayler. Not necessarily. If the f iiture works that way all well and good. I do not pretend to predict for the future. Senator King. Do you not think that Bolshevism is founded upon what might be called religious paganism; the destruction of all re- ligious sentiment; that it inevitably leads to it? Mr. Sayler. There is a materialistic phase of Bolshevism. So far as I could see of their attitude toward the church of Russia that is a point that I had intended to include on the other side of the ledger, because it is one of the more or less normal features of Rus- sian life, the life of the church. The Bolsheviki have not actively opposed the church to my knowledge. They have more or less sneered at it, in individual utterances. Senator King. Recently; in the last two or three months Mr. Sayler. I can not gay as to that. Senator King (continuing). Have they not taken the churches, and have they not established schools for the teaching of atheism ? Mr. Sayler. I can not say as to that. I know of only one violent act, which happened during my stay there, and which had any bear- ing on this. The Alexander church in Petrograd, the third of the churches in Petrograd, was seized by the Bolsheviki for public use, and about the middle of February, 1918, I saw 300,000 men, women, and children march in line in Moscow in protest against that act. As I have read the utterances of individuals who have come back from Russia since my return last August, it seems to me that mis- takes have been made in both extremes. Those who have defended the Bolsheviki have insisted that the church has no further influence in Russia; and those who are against the Bolsheviki most bitterly, usually, it seems to me, make the mistake of overemphasizing the 85723—19 63 994 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. unanimity of the Eussian church, and put upon it the burden of rejuvenating Eussia. As I saw it, and I can only give my own honest testimony, the truth lies somewhere in between there. There is no doubt that the church in Eussia has lost a great deal of its old hold, because a great deal of its old hold was through superstition and fear, and the fact that* the church worked hand and glove with the old regime in Eussia; but at the same time no one could have stood with me, watching those 300,000 men and women and children march in silent protest, with their gold ikons over their shoulders, into the great Bed Square in Moscow in protest against this act of the Bolsheviki, without realizing that there was some remaining life in the Eussian church. Senator King. Is not that borne out by the statement of Gov. Francis, that perhaps only 10 per cent, or at least only a small part, of the Eussian people believe in these violent methods of the Bol- shevik rulers, and that the mass of the people are still what they were before, honest, simple-minded peasants, desiring peace and to work out their salvation as best they may ? Mr. Satler. Well, now, if I were to assent to anyone's figures, the figures of the Ambassador or anyone else, as to the proportion of those who are supporting the Bolsheviki and those who are against them, I would be making a false move to my own honesty, because I do not know. I have no way of knowing. Figures are quoted as to the number of votes cast at the constitutional assembly election — which, by the way, I beg to correct in the statement as to when it was held. I heard a while ago some one give the testimony that it was held before the Bolsheviki came into control. I arrived in Moscow after they had seized the power and were fighting to main- tain it, and this election was held after my arrival in Moscow. I was in Moscow at the time, so that the election must have been held after they seized control. The nominations for that election, how- ever, were made and confirmed before the Bolsheviki came into con- trol. That I should like to refer to a little later in the matter of propaganda, because, mind you, the Bolsheviki are using propaganda in their own country just as much as they are trying to use it else- where. Senator King. In this country is well ? Mr. Sayljer. Well, I have not seen with my own eyes anything like propaganda intended for this country. I merely have seen posted in Moscow the decrees and the dodgers and posters declaring what is known as a holy war upon the whole world. Senator King. That would include this country ? Mr. Sayler. Yes ; we are part of the earth — a pretty big part. I get away from my point here. Senator Nelson. Now, can you not come back to facts instead of giving us a lecture? Mr. Satler. Very good, Senator. Senator Nelson. Instead of giving us a lecture, give us facts. Mr. Satler. I think I have been trying to give facts. Senator King. I think you are. Senator Nelson. Tell us what the difficulty is, and then give us your remedy — your pilgarlic for it. Tell us what to do. Senator King. I object to the views of the witness as to what we ought to do. I do not think that is material. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 995 Senator Nelson. I think we ought to get information as to what we ought to do. Mr. Saylbe. Well, in any case, I will try to proceed according to the wishes of the Senator, and give facts. I thought I had been making facts the backbone of what I had said. One of the' phases of demoralization in Russia undoubtedly is the railroads. I could talk all night on my experiences on the Rus- sian railroads ; but suffice it to say that the whole system has simply gone to pot; and that goes back not to the acts of any particular party but to the fact that Russia was not, as a nation, ready to make a four years' war. The railroads had begun to fail to function long before even the first revolution; and that is the chief reason, the underlying reason, for the lack of food in the proper places. It could not be carried, even if it was grown. Senator Nelson. Are not the Russian railroads all State rail- roads — owned by the government? Mr. Satlee. They are, yes; but they are operated in a very pecu- liar fashion. Senator. They are operated under district control. One district has absolute control over the railroad in its own terri- tory and another district has absolute control in another territory; and when things began to look bad in Russia . Senator Nelson. Is not that system of State ownership and opera- tion of the railroads in Russia a lesson to you about the matter of running railroads in this country? Mr. Satuee. Oh, I do not know that you can draw conclusions that quickly and rapidly ; no, I can not say so. But to get back to the point, the fact that these railroads were operated by districts led to the practice of one district " cabbaging " all the cars that it got, and cars were congested in districts where, possibly, they were not needed, but were desired for some future use ; and in other ways demoralization bred demoralization, ftnd the thing went from bad to worse. I will not go into that. I have waited for two days and three nights for a tram in a Russian railroad station because there was no way- of knowing when the train would come in. I had the privilege, at the hands of the stationmaster, because I was an American, of staying during that time in his office; but next door, in the common waiting room, I hare seen, gentlemen, people, human beings, dirtier than you and I are to-day but possibly just as good, lying sleeping on the floor three deep, with their heads out for air — such air as it was. We have heard a lot about the Army during the last two days, and one of the bones of contention seems to be over this matter of what the soldiers took home from the front when they demobilized them- selves — I will not say when they were demobilized, because most of it was automatic. For days upon days up the Arbat, one of the leading streets in Moscow, leading from the station going clown to the southwestern front where many of Russia's Army were in the field, melting away — for days upon days there was a constant* procession from daylight until dark, and long after, of soldiers in the olive drab of the Russian uniform marching up that street in pro- cession on their way to other railroad stations; and I Avould not at- tempt to make an accurate estimate of the numbers of arms they, carried, but I should say that, roughly speaking, nine men out of ten carried his gun over his back ; and those sruns went back to the f ai-ms, S96 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. because they liad no further use for them. There was no sale for them. Some rifles — extra rifles — were probably sold, as we heard, at the front to the Germans for little or nothing before they left; but usually the tovarisch, as the Russian soldier is known to-day — " comrade " — carried his rifle on his back. Senator Sterlixg. Did every Russian soldier at the front have a rifle to begin with ? Mr. Saixee. Toward the end. Senator, they were pretty well armed, through the factories of Japan and our own factories and the arms sent to Archangel from France and England; but earlier in the war, at the time when they were needed, there was in some Earts of the Russian front about one rifle to 12 men, and at the ridgehead at Dvinsk the Russians beat back the Germans with the sticks and stones that they could pick up. Senator Sterling. AVas it not true in some of the later battles of the war that disaster followed because of the lack of arms and munitions? Mr. Sayler. Very possibly. It was not properly distributed ; but I onlj' give my word that I saw nearly every peasant go back with his gun on his back. Now, that may be used to imply several things. It may be used to .imply that they are able to fight and do fight to maintain their rights, or that they ought to — or, you can interpret it in any way you like. But there is one phase of the situation that might be forgotten, gentlemen, and that is that a gun is of no use imless you have ammunition : and imless they had carried back with them more ammunition than any human being could carry that gun could not be used forever. So, manifestly, the fact that the peasant is armed has not as much to do with any given situation as at first you might think. Senator Sterling. After they disbanded, demobilized, and the peasants returned to their farms, was there any means of getting ammunition, even if they had their guns? Mr. Sayler. Not that I Icnow of, Senator. Education is another phase of Russian life which has gone pretty completely to pieces. The universities have either been closed or practically rendered inefficient by one phase and another of the de- velopment of life under the Bolsheviki. They have, it is true, a scheme for educating the whole of the Russian people, educating the most ignorant first and letting higher education go to the winds; but it is manifest that under a condition where chaos rules, practical things, no matter how idealistic they may be, no matter how good they may be in their consequences, can not be carried out. In other words, gentlemen, whatever good the Bolsheviki have tried to do has been impossible to accomplish under the conditions which brought them to power. Senator King. And under the methods which they employ ? Mr. Sayler. Under the methods which they are compelled to use to maintain their power. Senator Steeling. I think that is well added — ^your last statement. Mr. Satler. It is part of the story, undoubtedly. Senator King. Of course they resort to all sorts of violence in order to perpetuate themselves in power. Mr. Sayler. Well, I saw little violence while I was there. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 99T I want to come back to a question that you asked me, Senator, a moment ago, in regard to the proportion of those who uphold the Bolsheviki and those who are against them. It was my observation in Russia, and it has been my observation as I have gone in other coun- tries in the world, and have looked at social affairs in my own coun- try, that the vast majoritj' of the people do not give a hang who is in power so long as they have decent, normal conditions of living, enough to eat, enough wages, etc. There is a great hullaballoo every few years about political parties and elections, etc., and it is a pleas- ' ant pastime to talk ; but,-as in every other country, so in Russia to-day there are very few people, as far as I could see, who cared particu- larly ; who had conscious theories of government, in other words. Senator Steelikg. Were you out much among the peasants ? Were you at the various mirs or villages ? Mr. Sayler. I did net go out in the villages, but I lived for several days in Vologda — a country town of about 30,000 people, as I re- member it — and in Samara, and I got out into the smaller villages near Samara, but not to any great extent. Life was too difficult, and I felt that I was seeing about all that I could stuff into my eyes as it was. Now, let me briefly sketch the remainder of a normal life in Russia as I saw it. I do not intend to go into the details of why these things persist. They do. I am simply showing you things as I saw them. Take this matter of newspapers, which we have had up a great many times during the last two days. I do not know what the official action of the soviet government has been in regard to newsDapers. I have heard it commented on. I may ha^'e read it at .sometime, but I do not recall it- sufficiently well to make any statements on the case. 1 only know, Senators, that while I was in Moscow, from November until March, 1918, there were times, at irregular intervals, when the stress of affairs reached a certain point, when the newspapers in vio- lent opposition — not all of those in opposition, but those in violent opposition — ^to the Bolsheviki were suppressed. I know personally that the Russkiya Vyedomosti, the New York Times of Russia, was published, I should say, the greater number of mornings of my stay in Russia, but there were times when it Avas prevented from publica- tion. Likewise with the Russkoye Slovo; likewise the Ranneye Outro — " Early Morning " is the meaning of it. Likewise with the Outro Rossie or Morning Russia; and so on with the violent oppo- nents of the Bolsheviki. On the other hand, the papers representing the various shades and opinions of the social parties, from the most moderate to the most extreme, even including the anarchist paper Anarchia, in Moscow, appeared usually during these times of storm and stress. In other words, it seems to me that the Bolsheviki were willing to let those v\ho approximated their theories as to ends to be achieved go ahead, even though they disagreed as to the methods to be followed. Senator Sterling. Did you hear of, any fines being imposed upon the publishers of newspapers for publishing prohibited matter? Mr. Satler. No; I never heard of anything of the kind. I knew personally several individuals on the so-called bourgeoisie news- papers iii Russia, and they never spoke to me of anything of the kind. Life went on more or less normally with them. When they did not appear, they did not appear ; and when they did, they went to ^98 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. tlieir work and did their work. They paid out vast sums of money to try to get accurate news — these papers did ; but accuracy of news was impossible under the conditions. It simply could not be arrived at. I had to go all the way across Siberia to get out of my head the idea, planted there by every newspaper in Moscow, that there were 1,000,000 Japanese soldiers in Siberia. That story was printed by even the most conservative papers, because it seemed to come with some authority from somewhere. Senator Sterling. That was German propaganda, was it not? Mr. Satlee. Possibly. There was plenty of it there. The theaters went on, too ; and I speak there with something of a very keen interest, because, of course, the criticism of the theater is, as I indicated this morning, my chief profession ; and one of the two things I went to Eussia to do was to make a study of the Russian theater before it disappeared, if it should disappear in the revolution, knowing that it was the most important theater of the modern world. Tlie other purpose I had in going to Eussia was simply to be in an interesting situation at an intensely interesting time. The tlieaters wont on. I went, in the course of my time in Petro- grad and Moscow, 87 times to the Russian theater. Xow, thei-e must be some remnant of order left in a country if that is possible; and the theaters that weie going were usually crowded to the doors, with seats sold days in advance, and usually the most serious and the most important and often the most tragic plays in the entire repertory were presented at those theaters. Senator Steeling. If you will pai'don this question right here, be- cause it seems pertinent, are not people in tragic times like that apt to seek relief in some kind of diversion, such as the theater affords? Mr. Satlee. They are, Senator. But the strange part about the situation in ^Moscow and in Petrograd was that the lighter theaters, the theaters of meie amusement, did not persist. They were the ones that dropped out fii'st of all. So there must be something else to ex- plain that, and that goes into details which are not interesting or not pertinent to this inquiry. At the same time these theaters were go- ing on, life, as I have indicated, was abnormal in its lack of order, in its chaos. There was not a single one of those 87 nights when I came home from the theater in Petrograd or Moscow when I did not hear shooting across the city or around the corner somewhere on my trip. Senator King. Death became so common that it attracted no attention ? Mr. Saxler. Death became common; but death to the Eussian is not a matter of great import, either the death of some one else or the death of himself. There is a certain far-Eastern fatalism in the Eussian which makes for cheapness of life; and that, I insist, gentlemen, is to be looked upon as one of the reasons for what blood- shed there is in Eussia to-day — that fatalism and that cheapness of life. It is not necessarily a selfish cheapness of life. You do not kill any more readily than you are killed. It explains the dash and the fire of the Eussian armies in going to the front and falling as they did, losing 2,000,000 men, as we know. Free speech is a thing that has been discussed ; and I can only speak from my own knowledge of what I saw while I was there. I have no doubt that since then, as life has become more bitter and more BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA; 999 intense,' there has been less of it than there was while! was there; but I only know this, that I stood in a gxoup on the street corner often — ^you could hardly pass a street corner without finding such a group — ^and listened while some one in an impromptu oration simply " gave hell " to the Bolsheviki. There is no other word for it. They used all the violent terms and all of the terms of opprobrium in the Russian language, and the Russian language is full of them. Senator Sterling. Did that happen a short time before you came away or when you first went there? Mr. Satlei?. Up to the time I left. And often, gentlemen, I would see next shoulder to me the Bolshevik Red Guard posted to keep order at that corner, and he was simply taking it all in. Senator Nelson. Have they good swear words in the Russian lan- guage? [Laughter.] Mr. SAfLEE. Oh, wonderful words. I wish I had brought some of them back to England to my friends. [Laughter.] We had a Belgian who had served in the Russian navy until he lost his com- mission as an officer, who came out on the train with us, and of course he learned them all while he was there; and he got out into Peking, and expected to find a wonderful international society, all kinds of jewels, and beautiful ladies, etc., to repay him for these years of hardship in Russia ; and when he did not find it he let loose all of that string of Russian swear words, translated into English. To come back to the point, though, there was free speech, as far as I could see, in Russia at that time. I do not pretend to judge as to what has happened since. I should say, just as a guess, that if things have become as intense and as bitter as they have, freedom of speech is a lost thing in Russia to-day. It is one of those cases where vio- lence breeds violence and tyranny breeds tyranny, and free speech goes down after it has existed for awhile. Drunkenness is another element that comes under the head of order as well as disorder, because I can not swear to having seen more than two people under the influence of liquor the whole time T was in Russia. Senator Sterling. Well, vodka had been prohibited. Mr. Sayler. Vodka had been prohibited. Senator, under the Czar, in the first month of the war. That prohibition had persisted throughout the war under the Czar. It had persisted throughout the regime of Kerensky. It persisted and, as far as I know, persists to-day under the rule of the Bolsheviki ; because they know, gentle- inen — there is no use in dodging this fact — that if they can not pre- serve a certain amount of order where they are in power they can not persist in power; and they know perfectly well that to release that particular curse on the Russian people would bring about the kind of disorder that they could not control. The church, as I spoke of a while ago, and order in general, as I have indicated, now exists where it exists simply for the reason that the Bolsheviki know that if they do not preserve a certain amount of it they can not retain their control. Let me jump at once — I am taking too much time Mr. Humes. I want to ask you one thing there. What are the admissions to the theaters in Moscow? Mr. Sayler. That gets into a point that I was going to try to side- step. Major, becau se it involves t he decision nf what a ruble is worth 1000 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. in our money. I can tell you what the admissions were in rubles, yes ; but what a ruble is worth God knows, and I do not think He is very sure. Mr. Humes. What is it in rubles ? _ Mr. Satler. At the Moscow Art Theater, the greatest of the Eus- sian theaters of the drama, the prices run from a ruble and a half to 15 rubles. At the opera and the ballet the prices are higher ; and, of, course, there is speculation. Where you have seats sold out you have theater ticket speculation everywhere in the world. Senator Overman. We will close this testimony right here, and the case, subject to the call of the chairman. We will not take any more testimony. Senator King. Unless there is some particular point Maj. Humes wanted to ask this witness about. Mr. Sayler. May I submit, Senator, a memora,ndum? Senator Nelson. If you will give us facts instead of theorifes we would like it. I speak for myself only. Give us facts about this mat- ter, instead of exploiting your theoi'ies.- Mr. Satler. I do not know that I have any particular theories, gentlemen. Senator Overman. You are arguing all along; but you have been a pretty good witness. Senator King. Oh, I think the witness has been very fair, and has presented his view, and it is very interesting. I appreciate it very much. I am glad to get your view. Mr. Sayler. May I, gentlemen, submit to you for incorporation in the record my views of Russia, of the propaganda methods of the Bolsheviks in relation to the Germans, the Czecho- Slovaks, the an- archists, and the international situation? It seems to me that pos- sibly would be pertinent to the record and to the case. Senator King. I should be glad to have you do so; and, as a matter of fact, that is really the primary purpose of this branch of the inquiry. Senator Overman. How long will it take you to do it? Mr. Satler. To do it carefully, it would take me some time. I could do it more carefully for you, gentlemen, if you wish me to write it out. Senator King. I move that the witness be permitted to do that. Senator Overman. Can you not make your full statement, like you have made it here, and hand it to me? Mr. Satler. Very well. I will have it ready for you — when shall I call on you, Senator? Senator Overman. Can you get it ready by Monday or Tuesday? Mr. Satler. Yes, sir. Senator Overman. All right. Just make your statement and hand it to me. Mr. Satler. Very well. I appreciate your courtesj'. Senator King. Speaking for myself, anything that you Imow rela- tive to the propaganda of the Bolsheviks, not only in Europe but in our country, in the Western Hemisphere, I should be very glad to have incorporated in the record. Mr. Satler. Very good. I have the last word in the now famous Saratov decree concerning the nationalization of women — the last chapter. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1001 Senator Nelson. Give us facts. Senator King. What does it say — just put it in the record here now — about the nationalization of women ? Mr. Satler. I will submit in my memorandum to Senator Over- man the entire decree. Mr. Humes. He has the proclamation in Russian, just as it was posted. Mr. Satlee. Yes ; I have the proclamation in Russian, and I have the translation of it; but the upshot of it is this : The so-called Sara- tov decree concerning the socialization of women seems, as far as I can understand by an interpretation of this proclamation of the anarchists in reply to the original proclamation, to be a piece of Bolshevik provocatsia — that is a Russian word; we have nothing like it — provocation propaganda, against the anarchists, charging the anarchists with this in order to oppose them at a time when the anarchists were their most dangerous opponents, last spring and summer in Russia. Senator Overman. Do they have respect for women over there? Do they treat them well? Mr. Satlee. Why, the average Russian has respect for women, yes ; as far as I could see, intense respect. Senator Nelson. But the Red Guard, the Bolshevik leaders — what about them ? Mr. Saylek. I saw nothing to the contrary with respect to them at the time I was there. Senator Overman. Do you know anything about the Red Guard going to the place where that seminary was, where there were three or four hundred young girls, taking possession of it, and keeping the girls in there with them ? Mr. Satlee. I saw or heard nothing of that ; no. Senator King. That was in Petrograd, where Dr. Simons was. Mr. Satlee. I was in Moscow most of the time. I was in Petro- grad two weeks. Senator King. Only two weeks ? Mr. Satlee. Two weeks only; 10 days of it after the embassies had gone. Senator King. I move that the hearings be closed, and that the subcommittee adjourn subject to the call of the chairman. (The motion was agreed to.) Senator Oveeman. The testimony is closed. (Thereupon, at 5 o'clock and 45 minutes p. m., the subcommittee adjourned subject to the call of the chairman.) (The following statement was submitted in writing several days later:) Additionat^ Statement of Olivek M. Saylek. I have recountert to you, gentlemen, the facts which I observerl in Russia from November, 1917, to.May, 1918, showing a complete demoralization of such functions of civilized life as the food supply, railroad transportation, the financial and hanking structure, the army, the educational system, etc.. existing side by side with such survivals of order as the intermittent continuation of even the conservative newspapers, the continuation of the theaters, the more serious rather than the lighter ones of mere amusement, the existence of free speech (so long as I was in Russia), the absence of drunkenness, due, as I have said, to the fact that the Bolsheviki knew that they must preserve order under their system or that system would fail, and the continued power of the 1002 BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. church over the minds and hearts of a vast share of the population in spite of the fact that it had lost such control as it used to exercise through the applica- tion of fear by virtue of its connection with the old regime. These facts seemed to me to indicate, as I have said, that although the Bolshevik! by their program of violent social revolution by any and every means have tended to aggravate the demoralization of the functions of life, they are rather to be looked on as a symptom than as a cause — one of the coordinate results of the oppression of the old regime making their appearance on the Russian scene alongside and partly because of hunger, disintegration of the army and of all industrial life, etc. In other words, they have been unable to put into practical effect the idealistic plans they have contemplated because of the existence in the Russian scene of the same conditions which brought them to power and also by their determination, at any cost, to retain their power. I should like to proceed, gentlemen, to recount the instances and the events that passed before my eyes while I was in Russia which indicate the methods of the Bol.sheviki in their attempt to spread their doctrine and system over the world by violent social revolution. These methods in their various forms might be termed, I suppose, propaganda. In every instance those methods took the form of opportunism, a Machiavellian subordination of means to ends. In their relationship to their own people, to the Germans, to the Czecho-Slovaks, to the anarchists, and to the rest of the world this statement regarding the methods they have used would. I think, invariably apply. First of all let us take their relationship to their own people. In their pub- lished statements of doctrine it has been evident to you that their program is international even to the exclusion of any thought whatever for Russia as Russi.'i. Sino' they are necessarily dealing with Russians and using Ru.ssians for achieving their ends, they were compelled during my residence in Russia to play fast and loose with the international idea, and in proclamations which I saw in the streets and in the newspapers emphasis was occasionally shiften; at the same time you I know have always felt that it was necessary to encourage such iirol'i'ssious in (U'der to organize any resistanc(> whatever to the Oentral Empires and were conlident that such an organization would never be used against existing governments including our own but it is difflcult to induce our government to accejit Hint view. You are acquainted with my efforts to bring railroad men to the assist- ance of the Soviet Government — Lenine and Trotsky — and you are also aware of my action in bringing about the aid of the military mis.sions toward organizing an army — The army of the soviet, and you are likewise familiar with the result of such efforts — They failed because the home government refused to indorse the program. [Continuing reading :] But Webster has just come in to tell me good-bye and I have not Ibe time to write at greater length. If this prohibition of ci])her telegrnnis is apjilicalile to neuti'als as well as Allies, I shall as Dean of the Diplomatic Corps reconunend that united protest be made and it will doubtless be made through the Consuls of all the Missions that have Consuls in Moscow or I'etrograd. My opinion is that the Soviet Government has made a great mistake in issuing this decree or order. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1019 There are innuy things which I would like to talk to you about and cannot write even if I had the time. Yon are correct In thinking that I was not at all disturbed by the newspaper surmise that I was to be succeeded by yourself, not that I think such suggestion absurd but I did not for a moment feel that you were a party to any such move. Senators, it has been testified here by certain persons that I was seeking the office of American ambassador in Eussia. No man who knows politics — and whatever else I may be, I am not supposed to be entirely ignorant or entirely a fool — would have entertained the idea for a moment. Senator King. Was that suggested by anybody execept Louise Bryant ? Mr. Robins. This paper stated that Dr. Simons testified that it created confusion because I was persistently trying to be made am- bassador and opposing American officials, and the ambassador stated specifically that if there were any statements to be made referring to himself or the Government, they would be issued by him, indicat- ing that I was doing some such a thing. May it under oath be recorded that I never made a single public statement regarding my official position or unofficial service in any paper during my work in Russia. May it be recorded that I never at any time publicly in any wise pretended to represent the Government of the United States, but did only, in the mattei' intrusted to me, act quietly, and at most times secretly, to the end that we might handle the difficult situation that was there. I conceived the ambassador and myself as working, gentlemen of the committee, in entire harmony, with certain differences of judgment as to the actual facts and condi- tions that are reasonable and expected in honest and sincere men everywhere. [Reading :] It is possible that I niny \\-rite again tomorrow after learning more about this prohibition of cipher telegram. The food has arrived from Petrograd but has not yet been unloaded I nm told. Must close now in haste. Tours sincerely, David U. Francis, (P.y direction,) E. W. .ToHNSTOW, fieri/. This document further evidences the character of my instructions and services as the special representative of the American ambassador, David R. Francis, in relation to the soviet government of Russia as late as the date aforesaid, which was about six months after the in- auguration of the soviet government regime in Eussia. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, you will note that in* this letter the American ambassador writes of my acquaint- ance with his efforts to bring railroad men to the assistance of the soviet goA^ernment as well as his action in bringing about the aid of the military missions toward organizing an army for that gov- ernment and of the failure of his efforts due to the noncompliance with his recommendations by the Government of the United States at Washington. Senator King. Anterior to that period, as you know, of course, our Government had attempted to send material, and had attempted to send railroad men, and so forth. Mr. Robins. Yes, sir, but had restrained them from coming in. Senator King. They had gone up into Siberia. 1020 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Mr. Robins. But had restrained them from coming in. Senator King. They were in Siberia. Mr. EoBiNS. No, at that time in Harbin, I think. Senator King. And the uncertain situation there in Eussia de- terred the Government from ordering them in. Mr. EoBiNS. I present another document, filed and marked as " Eobins Document • No. 11." This is a photographic copy of an original in my possession written on the date incidated thereon and handed to me by the American Ambassador David E. Francis per- sonally. [Eeading :] Robins Document No. 11. Vologda, May 15, 1918. The Honorable Paul S. Reinsch, American E. E. & M. P., Peking. Mt Deak Colleague: This letter will be presented by Lieut. Col. Raymond Robins, who has been in charge of the American Red Cross Mission to Russia for some months past and who is now en route America to inform his organi- zation and the Government about conditions in Russia with which Colonel R. Is very familiar. Suggesting that maybe I did a little bit more than distributing some milk. [Eeading:] The Colonel has been in close touch with the Soviet Government since its organization in October last and has kindly kept me informed concerning its acts and policies so far as he was able to do so. Senator Nelson. Let me see, right there. That quotation coincides with what Mr. Francis testified to before the committee. Mr. EoBiNS. If Eo, Senator, I am glad. Senator Nelson. I can not see any issue between you and him on that point. Mr. EoBiNS. Well, I do not want to make any. [Continuing reading :] While the Colonel and I have not agreed on the subject of recognition we are of accord and have been from the beginning in thinking it important if not necessary that the Soviet Government should show resistance to Germany, and have worked together to that end. And I submit, gentlemen of the committee, they could not show a resistance to Germany unless there was some sincerity in that situa- tion. If they were believed to be German agents, you could not expect them to take any amount of action showing resistance to Germany. Senator King. Pardon me, is not that rather a deduction that might or might not be warranted ? It would depend upon the facts. If a majority of the Eussian people wanted the Eussians to continue the military operations, and the minority — assuming that Lenine and Trotsky represented the minority — were opposed, then they might be compelled to yield to the majority. Though in their hearts they were opposed and might have been German agents, they might have to bow to the majority. Mr. EoBiNS. That would be tenable if it had not been so con- stantly said that Lenine and Trotsky were in absolute command of the situation, again and again, by witness after witness. [Reading :] I commend the colonel to your favorable acquaintance and bespeak for him your courtesies and assistance. Believe me, my dear colleague, Yours sincerely. David B. Francis. BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. 1021 The American ambassador and members of his staff from the tem- porary American Embassy at Vologda met the special car of the American Ked Cross mission in Russia, at the railway station in Vologda, on the said date, when I and certain members of the Ameri- can Eed Cross mission in Russia were at Vologda en route to Vladi- Tostock in obedience to cable instructions to report upon the Russian situation to the American Government and the American Red Cross in Washington. On this same occasion the American ambassador spoke in the most generous terms to me of my services to him and to the American Government, in the presence of other members of the American Red Cross mission. The American ambassador on this occasion also delivered into my hands, for safe-keeping and trans- mission to the Department of State of the United States at Wash- ington, a special sealed pouch. The character of this letter of introduction to the American ambas- sador at Peking, China, indicates my relationship between David R. Francis, American ambassador, and the soviet government, and in- dicates confidence and trust in me. The ambassador gave me at that time and place several other letters of a similar character, to be pre- sented to American consuls en route through Siberia, and to the American ambassador of the United States to Japan, which letter was delivered by me to said Ambassador Morris in Tokyo, with whom T dined at the embassy and to whom I gave a confidential report upon the Russian situation as I understood it. Mr. Chairman and gentleman of the committee, in view of the «xtraordinary circumstances surrounding the whole matter of my relationship and the character of my services in Russia, both as ■commander of the American Red Cross mission and as unofficial representative of the American ambassador with the soviet govern- ment, I wish to submit and to have filed in the record of the investi- gation by this committee, the following additional documents : I present another document, filed and marked as "Robins Docu- ment No. 12." This is a photographic copy of an original cable message in my possession, sent Iw the director general of the Ameri- can Red Cross, the Hon. Henry P. Davison, from Washington, D. C., ■on the date indicated thereon. [Reading :] Robins Document No. 12. Impossible convey my admiration appreciation, and oongratulations upon .your signal service to your country to Red Cross and to me. Some day history will record service being rendered by you. Ai¥ectionate Xmas greetings to :yourself and stafE. Davison. I present another document, filed and marked as " Robins Docu- ment No. 13." This is a photographic copy of an original in my possession. This cable message was sent from Paris, France, and was received by me April 18, 1918, at Moscow, after I had been for four and a half months commander of the American Red Cross in Russia. [Reading :] Robins Document No. 13. •Consul Amekican, Moscow Russia: Sixteenth for Robins. " Be assured your services to Red Cross of extra- ■ordinary value and highly appreciated inside and ■outside Red Cross organiza- tion. Distressed you should have misconstrued cable regarding assistance. 1022 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. You will be adviswl by cable later relative tbis point. Assume you will not contemplate leaving Russia except for personal safety without advising me in plenty of time. Seems to all here that it would be misfortune to have Red Cross withdrawn from Russia and certainly as you have made such signal success. Gi\e no further consideration question assistant until further advLsed Perkins." Shaep. The occasion for this communication was a previous cable message from Paris, suggesting the intention of sending certain assistants for the work of the American Ked Cross mission in Russia under my command. As there was no statement of the reasons for sending such assistants, and as there was no need for any additional help in the work of the American Eed Cross mission at that time in Russia, I replied to the previous cable to the effect that I did not (need assistance for our work in Russia, and that if my administration of the American Red Cross mission in Russia was not satisfactory to the administration of the American Red Cross in Washington, or to the American Government, I should be recalled. To this answering cable of mine, I received the cable message above set forth, marked " Robins Document Xo. 13." Senator Steeling. Colonel, how does that meet or refute anything that has been said by Ambassador Francis in his testimony ? Air. Robins. It meets this, Stenator. In the newspaper report of the testimony it is said that the ambassador spoke of my recall, and the nature of his words was an inference that I was recalled because I was not useful or was not desirable ; or as it was reported, not in- dispensable, was the way it seemed to me and to others. For instance, I received a telegram, which I will submit in the record, from the Chicago Tribune, saying : Will you please make a statement for the Tribune answering Ambassador Francis's charges in testimony? The Chicago Tribune met me at the train and asked me for a statement when I came here. Senator Steeling. I did not get that impression from Ambassador Francis's testimony, Mr. Robins. But that is the impression it gives in the newspapers, and I have the right to disabuse the public of that. Senator Xelsox. Francis did not testify that you were recalled at his request. He simply made the statement that you were recalled. Senator Overman. He said the relations between him and Col. Robins were most pleasant; that he had met you at the depot, and that some conversation took place ; and said that he had authorized you to go to the Bolshevik government and discuss matters with them. I see no conflict between you. Mr. Robins. Would you not see the conflict between Senator Oveesiax. I am not talking about the press report. Mr. Robins. No; but did not the ambassador say that I had gone to Smolny to inquire as to the principles of the Bolsheviki, and had come back and said that I agreed, with them ? Senator King. I think he said substantially that. Mr. Robins. That is not true at all. Senator Sterling. It was stated, Col. Robins, that you went to the ambassador and asked him if he was not going to recognize. the soviet government of Russia, and he said to you that you knew that he was not, or that in substance. BOLSHByiK. PROPAGANDA. 1023. Mr. EoBiNS. I state under oath that the facts in that relation are that the ambassador called me into his office and asked me to serve him in his special affairs in relation to the soviet government. Senator Steeling. I think he so testified. Mr. Robins. I present another document, marked and filed as "Robins Document No. 14." This is a photographic copy of an original in my possession, same being a cable message from the De- partment of State of the United 'States of America and the American Red Cross at Washington, D. C, and was received by me in Moscow on May 9. 1918. [Reading :] Robins Document No. 14. American Consul General, Aioscow. 128 Ninth Washington for Robins Moscow twenty two seventh lolOS 10095.. " Under all circumstances consider desirable that you come home for consulta- tion we are very reluctant however to withdraw entire Red Cross Commission anticipating that there will be many opportunities to help distribution food and other Red Cross relief measures next two months must leave decision in your hands for you alone can judge possibilities of personal welfare members commission also likelihood continuing service but all here feel that Red Cross will find much valuable relief work to do and hope you before leaving will find possible arrange for sufficient personnel to remain and if you desire we will endeavor send other Red Cross representatives to help in maintaining Red Cross efforts position in Russia founded on fine basis established cable promptly care Davison." Lansing. The character of this cablegram indicates that at that date, after nearly six months of my administration as commander of the Ameri- can Red Cross mission in Russia and as unofficial representative of the American ambassador, David R. Francis, with the soviet gov- ernment, the American Government and the American Red Cross, at Washington relied upon my information and judgment in relation to retention of the mission in Russia, the service it should undertake,, and the matter of additional help to carry out its work. It also evidences an appreciation of the merit of the work previously accom- plished by the American Red Cross mission in Russia. Senator King. The word " recall " as used by Mr. Francis did not imply, as I' understood it, any rebuke. Mr. Robins. I am very glad ; because as it was reported, it did. Senator Overman. He said here that you were recalled. Senator Nelson. That simply indicated that you were recalled, as I understood, by the Red Cross. Senator Overman. This is what was said [reading] : Mr. Francis. Col. Thompson succeeded Col. Billings as the head of the Ameri- can Red Cross Mission to Russia, and he spent a million and a quarter dollars of his own money Senator Nelson. Thompson did? Mr. Francis. V^hich was distributed through Robins to sustain Kerensky In his fight with the Bolsheviki. Consequently he was very much frightened when the Bolshevik revolution took place, and he left Petrograd within ten days or two weeks of that time. He left Robins in charge. Robins went to the Bolsheviki and said he had been fighting them and he wanted to know what their principles were. They told him their principles, and he was ever afterward persona grata at Smdlny, and followed them to Moscow, and tried to get me to go to Moscow, and I refused because I did not want to be any closer to the Bolshevik gov- ernment than I was. 1024 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGAKDA. Senator Nelson. Can you tell us anything further about his operations In that connection? Mr. Fbancis. About whose operations? Senator Nelson. Col. Robins's. Mr. Francis. Col. Robins I had heard was being quoted down there as the mouthpiece of America. My relations with hlra were pleasant. I had, as I told you this morning, told him that he could continue to visit the soviet officials, because I wanted to loam what they were doing. He was recalled on the 5th of May, and on the 15th of May he went through Vologda, going to Vladivostok. I went to the station to meet him. We had a private- conversa- tion of about twenty minutes — the train was there 50 minutes — and I turned away from him, or he turned away from me ; I have forgotten which — not in any unfriendly spirit * * *. Senator King. The word " recalled " there, the way he spoke it, did not imply any rebuke. Senator Overman. He just stated the facts. Senator Nelson. He did not imply that he had asked for your recall. Mr. Robins. As it was reported it did imply that. Senator Nelson. I gathered the idea that you were recalled by the Red Cross authorities, and that letter indicates that. Senator Sterling. There was not a word of Ambassador Francis's testimony which could be construed as a reflection on the Red Cross. Mr. Robins. Or on my work as unofficial representative, or on me in relation to the subject ? Senator Sterling. I would not say about that ; but as to your Red Cross work, not one word of criticism. Mr. Robins. May I say, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, that I wish to enter my own statement of what I think to be the fact, having been in constant relation with Col. William B. Thompson, that there was no man in Russia during that entire critical period who was less frightened at anything than William B. Thompson, and no man who left in less haste. He left largely at my earnest request that he should go out by way of England, and that he should make an effort to get a correct understanding of the thing in England. At that time Sir George Buchanan, the British ambassador, and Gen. Knox, the chief of the military mission, were absolutely unwilling to do anything like cooperating as did the ambassador of the United States, to try to meet the needs of the situation ; and Col. Thompson did go out and he saw Lloyd George, and the result was that the British high commissioner recalled the British ambassador, Bu- chanan, and the chief of the British military mission, Gen. Knox. Mav I say this, and then I am through, and readv to answer any question, if I can — may I suggest this? I have always taken the position that the report of the committee would be of significance in the radical situation in this country, and that it is one of the most important issues before the country now. I did not suppose that the committee would rest so soon. May I make this recommendation, which mav be considered by the committee for what it it worth, that Gen. William V. Judson, chief of the American military mission in Russia, a gentleman there at that time, be railed before this com- mittee and required to testify; that Maj. Thomas D. Thacher, sec- retarv of the American Red Cross, who had special knowledge of the situation at Murmansk, and who was there during the entire life of the mission in Russia, until some time in March, be called; that Maj. Allen Wardwell, who remained in Russia until the 5th of Octo- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1025 ber, 1918, and left Petrograd on the 16th day of October, 1918, be called ; that Prof. H. G. Emery, of the Guaranty Trust Co., who was also there for a long time, be called ; that E. E. Stevens, chief director of the National City branch banks in Eussia, be called; that Mr. Jerome Davis, Y. M. C. A. secretary, and ablest man of their number, and who reached farthest in out-of-door contact, in my judgment, of any of the Y. M. C. A. secretaries, be called before the committee ; to the end that when the committee does make its report it can not be questioned anywhere ; to the end that there shall have been before this committee all of the real information obtainable. None of these gen- tlemen are Bolshevik, every one is anti-Bolshevik, and some of them will differ in their judgments from me; but I know that they are all honest and able men, and all of them had serious tasks to perform in the Eussian situation, most of them for periods as long as mine and some of them longer, on different kinds of missions, scien- tific on the one hand and business or relief and political on the other. To meet the challenge of the Bolshevik program, which is the most definite and fundamental in modern times, is, in my judgment, of the very highest moment. I thank you, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, for the courtesy and privilege of this statement. Senator Kixg. Col. Eobins, just a question or two. I think the committee has gone rather far afield in this investigation. Eeally, the technical duty rested upon the committee, in investigating this Bolshevik situation, of inquiring only into the activities of the Bol- shevik organization. Whether it was good or bad was immaterial in this country, and generally its methods of propaganda, and my judg- ment is that we have gone rather far afield in the investigation. Our duty really was to ascertain whether the Bolshevik organization was conducting a propaganda in this country, and incidentally in other countries, for the purpose of spreading the doctrine and principles of that organization. Therefore what its principles are or were was not really material, as submitted by the resolution. And therefore, speaking for myself, I do not think the committee should pursue the matter any further, because there is evidence, it is obvious in the testimony, including your own, that they are carrying on a propa- ganda in this country as well as in other countries. Mr. EoBiNS. Senator, if the findings of the committee do not find in relation to the actual facts in Eussia and do not make a recom- mendation in relation to Eussia, I believe that would be an exact distinction. Senator King. So far as I am concerned — I have not talked with my colleagues Senator Nelson. We have no jurisdiction. Senator King (continuing). I should be opposed to finding any- thing about conditions in Eussia, or what the principles of the Bol- shevik government were and what they would lead to. Our findings, if my views prevail, will be limited to finding as to the activities of the Bolsheviki to spread their doctrines, and we are not called upon to pass upon the goodness or the badness, if I may be permitted that expression, of their peculiar political system. Mr. EoBiNS. May I ask another question, Senator? If that is the point of view, why was it that Santera Nuorteva, who I understand is S.5723— 19 65 1026 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. a pro-Bolshevik, head of the Finnish bureau here, who has had more to do with the propagation of Bolshevik ideas in this countiy than any other one person in America, if I am correctly advised — why has he not been called before the committee ? Senator King. I never heard his name mentioned except by Miss Bryant. I do not know him, and do not know what he is here for. Mr. EoBiNS. I understand he has a bureau in New York and is en- gaged in propaganda. Senator Overman. It has been testified time and again that he is. Senator King. Then would you say that the Bolsheviki are en- gaged in propaganda here as well as in other countries ? Mr. Robins. I would say this, that there are individuals in Ajnerica propagating Bolshevik ideas — in fact, every I. W. W. is doing that job and has been for 20 years — and if there is an organized propa- ganda supported by money from Europe, that is something I would like to know. I do not know it of my own knowledge. I have heard it charged that that was so in the case of Nuorteva. If that is so I would like to know it. I do not know it of my own knoAv ledge. ■ Senator King. But he Avas here? Mr. EoBiNS. Yes. Senator King. And is carrj-ing on a propaganda in favor of Bol- shevik ideas? Mr. Eobins. Whether he was doing that, or whether it was to get recognition of the Bolshevik government — there may be some distinc- tion between the two — but that he is a person who believes in its rule, and may have the same right to do that that I have to believe against it. But he was engaged in a definite propaganda here in this country, and probably could tell you more about it than any other person. Senator Overman. Mr. Humes is going to submit to this committee a number of documents, many of them from this man you speak of. These documents will be in the record, showing that the propaganda is going on to a great extent. Senator Nelson. We have a great number of documents which have been submitted and printed in this country ; and I want to say for myself that all I have cared about the Russian situation was to ascertain what the creed and doctrine of this Bolshevik government was, and then beyond that to see what they were doing in this coun- Now, the resolution that authorized us to investigate it was simply directed to their operations in this country — the Bolshevik propa- ganda in this country. There were a number of these socialists who came here who wanted to testify, who volunteered and insisted, and they injected a lot of stuff about the Russian situation. They came here to exhibit their own knowledge of Russia and their propaganda, and to tell us about the situation, or rather to preach in favor of rec- ognizing that government. We have nothing to do with that, but the committee let them come and testify. I do not think we forced you to come in. You came in voluntarily, as I understand. Mr. Robins. I came at the request of the chairman. I was asked by a gentleman, who said he was an agent of the Department of Jus- tice, whether I would come voluntarily or whether I would have to be required to come. I said, " I will come voluntarily." Senator Overman. Just as you have done this afternoon ? BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 1027 Mr. KoBiNS. Just exactly ; only to-day at my request and before at yours. Senator Overman. Some of them requested that you be called, and I told them I would be glad to call you, and I told them to ask you if you would come without a subpoena. Senator King. What Senator Nelson has said is my understanding, and as far as I am concerned there will be no finding at all in regard to the conditions in Russia, or whether there ought to have been recog- nition of the Bolshevik government, or anything of that nature at all. It will simply be a finding as to whether or not the Bolshevik gov- ernment has attempted to propagate its views in t^iis country. That is the oilly issue. Senator Overman. I thought we ought to find out what their prin- ciples are, and if they are a menace to us, if they are working an injury to our own country, the propaganda ought to be stopped. I thought we ought to know what their principles are in order to make some recommendation to Congress as to future legislation. I asked you that question, and you said you thought there ought to be some legislation. Senator Nelson. The main question in a nutshell is this: Are their doctrines and propaganda a danger and a menace to this country? ]f so, how can we counteract them? That is all we have got to do. Now I have listened to your testimony, and I do not see any real con- flict between you and Ambassador Francis. Mr. EoBiNS. I am very glad that that is so, resting on the record. Senators. In the newspapers it was made a definite effort to appear that the ambassador was discrediting me. I could not understand it. I did not know why it was possible. Certain persons said to me, " The ambassador is going to discredit you."' I said, " That is im- possible, because there is nothing to discredit," and I went back to Chicago with a perfect freedom of conviction as to our understanding. Senator Overman. When you read the I'ecord in this case you will see that there is no reflection whatever on you. Mr. Robins. I am very glad to know that. Senator King. I want to ask one or two questions. There are a number of people going back and forth, or at least there were a year or more ago a number of people going back and forth to Russia, who were engaged in propagating Bolshevik ideas. Mr. Robins. I do not know as to that. Senator. You see, I came out in June, 1918. During the six months I have been out I do not think anybodv could come out or go back. Senator King. There were a number of persons who went to Russia from the United States. Mr. Robins. After the revolution? Senator King. After the revolution. Mr. Robins. A great number, sir. Senator King. Some testimony here indicates that one week 800 went from the United States to Petrograd. Mr. Robins. I should think that was entirely reasonable. Senator King. And that a large number of them Avere from New York and were Russian nationals who had been living in the United States for some time, and that they participated in the revolution and became followers of Lenine and Trotsky. Would your observa- tion corroborate that view ? / 1028 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. My. Kobixs. Oh, as to a great many of them I should say that was true. And on the other hand, some very loyal supporters of Kerensky were men who were emigrants from the United States. Senator Kixg. Do you know whetlier or not people have gone from Russia to other countries, Germany, Switzerland, and other European countries and our own country, and to South America, for the pui'pose of carrying on the Bolshevik propaganda ? Mr. Robins. I know absolutely in relation to groups of men going into Germany and into Austria. I was told of one group that was to meet on a certain night, and I was advised by Mr. Edgar G. Sisson, of the Ameuican Committee on Public Information, that I could probably use some money in forwarding that enterprise, which "was in his judgment and in my judgment sound, and he gave me the right to use 75,000 rubles in helping these men get into Germany and Austria ; but when I got there and had held a conference with them, they would not take the money, but said they were going there, and discussed the enterprise. They had men there who were business men and workingmen, and men who were soldiers, who spoke not only the German language but Bohemian and various other lan- guages of Austria, to go in there and spread the Bolshevik formulas. Senator King. Do you know of people who have been in the United States, and who are now sympathizers with Bolshevism, and who are seeking to spiead it in this country? , Mr. Robins. I Avould not know w-hether they were spreading it, but there are some people here who are Americans who are sympa- thizing with the Bolshevik formulas, and who believe Bolshevism is the best way out; that it is a wonderful new program, and all that sort of thing. Senator King. Do you know whether the Bolshevik government has sent propagandists to South America? Mr. Robins. I do not Imow, only by hearsay. I have seen it stated and have heard it stated. Senator Nelson. There is a man by the name of Eadek. I guess you are familiar with him? Mr. Robins. I know him very well. He is in Germany, and possi- bly in prison or dead. Radek was possibly the ablest of the jour- nalists of the Bolshevik group. Senator Nelson. Was he a Russian or a German? Mr. Robins. An Austrian. Senator Nelson. A Hebrew ? Mr. Robins. No, sir; he is not a Hebrew. He is an Austrian Gen- tile and a very able man. Senator King. He prepared many of the proclamations signed by Lenine and Trotsky? Mr. Robins. Yes; and wrote a great many of the documents sent out to the army for Austria and Germany. Senator Nelson. Do you know a Finn by the name of Nuorteva? Mr. Robins. That is the man I suggested that you should have ap- pear before you. I have met him twice. Senator Nelson.- What sort of a man is he? Mr. Robins. He deemed to be a very intelligent person and to be thoroughly committ"id to his program. Senator Nelson. You laiow there are two kinds of Finns — Swedish Finns and real Finns. BOLSHEVIK> PROPAGANDA. ' 1029 Mr. Robins. I do not know which he is. Senator Nelson. What is his name ? Mr. Robins. Santera Nuorteva. Senator Nelson. That is a Finnish name. Mr. Robins. I do not know. I am not wise in those matters. Senator King. Of course, it is obvious that the Bolshe\'ik govern- ment is now attempting to destroy Poland, and perhaps some of those other governments which the allies, including our own Gov- ernment impliedly, if- not openly, must support. Do you under- stand that they are doing that now ? Mr. Robins. As to Poland, I followed that with some care because the Polish situation was constantly before us, and my understanding; as to Poland was this, that there are two groups of the Polish citi- zens, the Pilsudsky's group, the Socialist group, and Paderewski's group which more nearly represents the bourgeois class, the land- lords, and so on. Senator King. You know they are working together, do you not ? Mr. Robins. I know that there is a claim that they are, but there are things in the press which indicate that they are not, and thosa who are familiar with the situation can well understand that there might be a conflict between them. Senator King. You understand that the Bolsheviki, in line with their view, are attempting to disintegrate or destroy the incipient Polish republic and subject it to Bolshevik control ? Mr. Robins. Put it this way, that they were throwing all the in- fluence they had on the side of Pilsudsky and against Paderewski, and that would mean a split and probably civil war. Senator King. And that they are going to give military aid ii necessary in order to destroy or prevent the formation of a republic there which would be supported by the allies, or maintained by the allies? Mr. Robins. I do not know how far they would go. I do not Imow what the purpose of the American Government in the Polish situa- tion really is. I do not know what the purpose of the American Government in the Russian situation really is. I have tried to find out. but I do not know. Senator King. I am speaking only of Poland. Judging from what we learn, there is to be a recognition of the Polish Republic, and a Jugo-Slav Republic, and a Czecho-Slav Republic; and the point I am trying to get at is that the Bolshevists are trying by propaganda to prevent the erection of these independent republics, and to subject whatever governments may be organized there to Bol- shevist control. Mr. Robins. This is the thought I would suggest. The Bolshe- vists will try to have what they call an economic soviet republic as against what we might call a political democratic republic, and if they find that in Jugo-Slavia after awhile, in the struggle there, there is a socialist movement, they would support that socialist movement. Senator King. By military force? Mr. Robins. Yes; and before the story is over we may be in the position of having to decide what we will do in matters of that sort, just as we have had to decide about a very similar situation down in Mexico. If I understand it truly, Carranza's program is 1030 BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. very similar to the Bolshevik program, and I believe we have rec- ognized them. Senator King. I differ with you there, but I do not care to be led into a discussion of Mexico. ISIr. Robins. The subject is broad enough as it is. Senator Kixg. Yes ; I can only say that I am not satisfied \yith con- ditions in Mexico. But the point I am trying to get at is that the propaganda of the Bolsheviks is not limited to mere preachments, but will extend to military operations, as I understand their posi- tion. Mr. EoBiNs. If they have the power. They believe in the use of force, and one of the reasons why a people who believe in settling questions by the ballot are opposed to the Bolsheviki is because the Bolsheviki believe in force. Senator King. Then when they withdrew from the military op- erations against Germany it was not because they did not believe in force? Mr. EoBiNS. Xot at all. Senator King. They are willing now to organize armies, and are attempting to organize armies ? Mr. Robins. They organized resistance to Germany. They sent the Red Guard out, and the sailors — sent them out against the Ger- mans — but they were overwhelmed by the rotting old army, that fell back as soon as the Germans advanced. They fought the German advance, and the White Guard advance on the Finish border. They fought the Ukrainian Rada and the White Guards. But they had a desperate economic situation and a desperate disorganization of the army to deal with. They kept saying, " We have got to fight Ger- man militarism, because German militarism will not allow us to live. As soon as we get an economic reorganization, as soon as we get a new revolutionary army, then we can fight the German power, but for the time being we have got to make peace." And the peace of Brest-Litovsk was a peace of Tilsit — was a peace of preparation. That was the program. Senator King. My point is that they are perfectly willing to carry on tjieir propaganda not only by preachment but by force. Mr. Robins. Yes. So far as I understand their Jbelief, they believe in self-determination; that any group has the right to determine its own government. Xow any revolutionary socialist government would receive support from Russia, in the desire that there should be a world-wide revolution. I do not believe the soviet govern- ment of Russia would send troops, if it had troops to send, into another countrj', unless there was a revolutionary movement of the workers and peasants of that country. Senator King. We know that they sent Radek with millions of rubles into Germany for the purpose of stirring up a revolution there. INIr. Robins. Yes. at a time when there were already absolute soviet groups organized ; and probably Liebknecht and Rosa Luxem- bourg and others called on their Russian comrades, and they went over there. Senator King. You know that in Germany they had an election, and from all reports it was a fair election. The women participated. Everi'body over 20 years of age, men and women, participated in BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1031 that election, and we have received from time to tim© without any contradiction the returns of that election, which show that the Spartacides received a very inconsiderable fraction of the legal vote, but notwithstanding that fact Liebknecht and Eosa Luxemburg and the Spartacides precipitated a revolution, and the Bolshevists were perfectly willing to aid them in overturning the government that had been established by a majority, and which represented, so far as the ballot could express their views, the wish of the majority. Mr. EoBiNS. There is no question about that. Senator King. And they would be willing to send troops into England or France or into our country for the purpose of aiding Mr. Robins. For the purpose of aiding a revolutionary group in any of those countries. Senator King. No matter how insignificant that revolutionary group was. Mr. EoBiNS. That would be a matter of judgment. In general I would say that is sound. Senator Kino. So that their purpose is to foment revolution and destroy governments, for the purposes of propagating their views and their peculiar theories, and they believe in international revolu- tion and dictatorship of the proletariat. Senator Steeling. Mr. Chairman, I simply want to say this. I do not want it to be implied from my silence when we were discussing the scope of this investigation awhile ago that I assent to all that has been said by members of the committee. I think it entirely relevant to this investigation that we should have gone into the conditions in Eussia, for we found there the source, for the most part at least, of Bolshevism, and we can not understand Bolshevism in this country until we understand its workings in Eussia, the intentions and motives of its leaders there, and the excesses and atrocities committed by Bolshevism there ; and I think this investigation has proven to be most profitable from that standpoint. We know what Bolshevism is there, and we know what a menace it is to the world by knowing what it is there as described by various witnesses, Col. Eobins among them, and we should prize his testimony for the information it gives us in regard to conditions in Eussia. Senator King. I suppose, though, technically speaking, in our findings we will be limited by the resolution. Senator Steeijcng. We may be limited to finding what conditions are in this country, but in our report I think we would be authorized to discuss Bolshevism as it exists in Eussia, as a justification for our conclusion. Mr. Eobins. That is the only reason I made the suggestion, because it had gone that far afield, and having done so it ought to cover those witnesses who would give you the largest information upon it — creditable witnesses. Senator King. My view was that we were limited to the purposes declared in the resolution, and I still think that any findings we might make would be limited to those that were indicated by the resolution; and yet that is a matter about which I have no very strong convictions. Senator Overman. We can state conditions and findings separately. Senator King. But that is not a matter that is material for the record. 1032 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Senator Nelson. It seems, Mr. Eobins, that all the witnesses you suggest calling would testify with reference to the operations of the Red Cross. Mr. Robins. No, sir. There is Prof. Emery, a most intelligent man, who was at the head of the tariff commission, and who is a university man Senator Overman. He was captured over there. Mr. Robins. Yes ; he was in the German camp and saw the spread of Bolshevism there. Senator Steeling. I should like to ask if the statement of Col. Vladimir S. Hurban has been put in the record ? Senator Overman. Yes; and the attention of Mr. Eobins ought to be called to that. Then if he desires to make any reply, it can be put in the record. Mr. Robins. I have read his statement, and I have no comment to make upon it. Senator Overman. The committee will adjourn, subject to the call of the chairman. (Whereupon, at 5 o'clock and 37 minutes p. m., the subcommittee adjourned, subject to the call of the chairman.) (The following letter and accompanying statement were ordered to be inserted in the record:) Hotel Majestic, New York, March 10, 1919. Hon. Lee S. Overman, Member United States Senate, 'Washington, D. C. Mt Dear Senator Overman : I take pleasure in sending you herewith an article of mine about the Czecho-Slovaks In Russia, which I have written with reference to the recent testimony of Col. Raymond Robins before the Senate Committee. Trusting that this article will be of interest to you, I am, Very sincerely yours, Catherine Beeshkovskt. The Czeoho-Slovaks in Russia. [By Catherine Breshkovsky.] With so many misrepresentations and calumnies afloat now about cpnditlons In Russia, it is almost impossible to reply to every false assertion or testimony. Yet there are matters of such great consequence, questions so pregnant witli meaning that it would be a crime not to give the world a true exposition of the actual facts. Among many other calumnies regarding conditions in Russia, one of the most revolting is the recent testimony of Colonel Raymond Robinn before the Senate Committee in the matter of the Czecho-Slovaks, their stay in Russia and their fighting against the Bolsheviki. Tlie events referred to occurred in the Spring of 1918, when the remnant of this brave and honorable Army, who for three years had fought against Ger- many together with our Russian troops, decided — after the treacherous peace arranged by Lenine and Trotzky at Brest-Litovsk was signed — to go to France and continue the war for the freedom of all the democracies of the world, and their own as well. As it was impossible for them to cross the former Russian front because of the German troops, the Czecho-Slovaks decided to go to the east, through all Russia and Siberia, to reach Vladivostok and from there to sail to France, — a journey of many thousands of miles by laud and water. As for myself — I was at this time hidden in Moscow and through my many friends could get news from some provinces along the Volga River, where small detach- ments of the Czecho-Slovak Army appeared by and by, part on foot and part by rail, all armed and even with some artillery. Then I began to get letters BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1033 from many peasants asking me who those mysterious troops were and what their intentions were. To these questions they added that this strange Army was a well-behaved one, never harming anyone and paying regularly for all the provisions obtained along their route. Soon afterwards we read in the papers thiit detachments of Czeeho-Slovaks, armed and in good order, dotted the long way from the ^'olga to Eastern Siberia. Finding it Impossible to be transported and fed in one large body, they had dis- solved themselves into many groups and were continuing on their way. In tlie meantime Moscow was ruled by the Kaiser's Ambassador, Count Mirbach, who ruled all the Bolshevist provinces and whose obedient servants were Lenine and Trotzky. In keeping with their purpose to cheat the Russian people, these two leaders of the Bolsheviki let it be known secretly that they would begin a new war against the Kaiser, " who has not fulfilled the terms of the peace," and they even started a sham mobilization to undertake a " crusade against the oppressors of the freedom of the Russian people," as Trotzky expressed liimself. After two weeks of such proclamations, Lenine published another one la wliich he said that, acknowledging the situation, he understands that it would be foolishness to continue a war that would check the progress of the revolu- tion, and therefore he asserts that " peace with Germany must be concluded, whatever the terms may be." So, Mirbach, .smiling at all the comedies of his Bolshevist assistants, ordered them to disarm the Czecho-Slovaks, who were moving to the east, and to check their march. It was in May of 1918 that some officers were sent by the Bolsheviki to Siberia to order these brave men to lay down their arms. Some arms were given up by the small detachments near Novo-Nikolayevsk, but about half was retained by the Czecho-Slovaks. These happenings were reported in the. Moscow papers without any comment, but intelligent peoiile began to understand the meaning of the persecution of the Czecho-Slovaks. It was clear that behind the Bol- shevist policy to disarm any force lighting the Germans in Russia, stood Count von Mirbach. And very soon afterwards we read again that some more officers and Rod Guards had been sent to Siberia for the same purpose. But the Czecho-Slovaks understood that it meant death for them to be left to the mercy of the Red Guards, who already counted among their number many thousr.nds. of German and Magyar prisoners, equipped and armed at the command of Moscow. In- stead of surrendering, the Czecho-Slovaks turned to the west, and their first deed was to turn the Red Guards out of the town of Novo-Nikolayevsk. The joy of the inhabitants was intense. The first of July, I left Moscow secretly \^ith a young friend, a member of our Party, and proceeded to the East, where I hoped to encounter friends and parti- sans able to organize a truly democratic government for all Russia. Crossing the Ural Mountains, making a detour to avoid the front, stopping in the villages to change horses and get some rest, on all sides we heard the same lamentations of the peasants about the looting and violence of the Red Guards and about the peasants' wishes to get aid from somebody. " There are people, the Czecho- slovaks, good people," I heard from the peasants. " Why do they not come here to turn out these brigands ! " And the nearer we approached Siberia, the louder were the complaints of the people and the more eager the desire to have these brave soldiers with them. Tumen, an important trading center, was full of Bolsheviki when we entered it. These brigands were turning the people mad with despair and fear of their violence and robbery, taking from every family everything possible and empty- ing all the shops and stores to send the goods to Ekaterinburg. It was just the moment when the Czecho-Slovaks, having turned the Bolsheviki out of Omsk, Tobolsk and the villages on the way, were approaching Tumen and were expected from day to day by the tortured inhabitants. The Bolshevist party has opened its ranks not only to criminals, but also to many psychologically abnormal, almost insane elements. Given the privilege of choosing their functions, these elements had every opportunity to satisfy their cruel uistlncts. So, in Tumen, there was a Bolshevist inspector of the prison, a ferocious monster who tortured the prisoners arrested by the Bolsheviki so incessantly that some went absolutely mad, some died from their tortures and some were buried under the stones and rocks before they were dead. Having friends all over Russia, I was concealed by several doctors in a hospital for some time, until we should find it possible to leave Tumen safely. Then one morning shouts were heard throughout the hospital : " They are com- ing' They are coming!" And they came, Colonel (now General) Sorovoy, 1034 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. with his snllant Czecho-SlovaliS, and a Russian general with some Russian troops. It was a thanksgiving day ! Not only the town, but all the surrounding villages were represented here with thousands of people praying, cheering and crying with joy lilie children. The municipality, the schools, the churches, all the organizations sent their delegates to invite the saviours to the common feast. JIany of the women came dressed in mourning; some of the mothers of the victims, of the Bolshevist terror had to be supported, for they could not walk by themselves. It was the first time I saw with my own eyes and came in close touch with the Czecho-Slovak officers and men. They were admired liy all of us, not only for their gallant appearance, but they were also highly esteemed as brave warriors, most perfect gentlemen and splendid citizens. After this memorable day I always had the most friendly relations with Czecho-Slovak soldiers and officers. I was interested in their political aspira- tion?, and everywhere and in all circumstances I found them the same : noble, unselfish, strong in their duties and faith. In Omsk I was proclaimed by the ■Czecho-Slovaks the " grandmother " of their troops in Russia. There, as well as in Ekaterinburg, in Cheliabinsk, in Ufa, in Samara, in all these places, I always found them fine men, beloved and esteemed by all the Russians. Yes, they were admired especially for their humanity, their sense of honor and bravery. While Col. Robins tell his stories about the Czecho-Slovak " atrocities," I have never heard any complaint against them, never a deroga- tory remark, even by those who envied their valour, their constant and unfailing success. AU intelligent Russians are proud to have them as brothers in the Slavonic race ; all our simple people love them for their readiness to sympatheti- cally aid every suffering human being. It is natural that such excellent people, such examples of bravery and honor, are hated by the Bolsheviki and their supporters, who are in character the very antipodes of the blessed Czecho-Slovak people. (The following note, submitted by Mr. Humes at the time of hand- ing in the exhibits next appearing hereafter, explains the source:) The character and nature of the propaganda now being carried on in the United States can be readily ascertained from the literature and newspapers published by the several so-called radical groups and by them circulated among their own followers and the elements of the population whose support they are seeking, and the following excerpts, extracts, and articles from various publi- cations, books, newspapers, and periodicals are presented as a clear indication of the nature of the propaganda now being carried on and as typical of the character of the activities of the several so-called radical groups : Extracts feom I'aiipht.et E^'titi.ed " Sabotage," by Eiiiia: Pouget. !f * ^J- # * * * What then, is Sabotage? Sabotage is: A. Any conscious and wilful act on the part of one or more workers intended to slacken and reduce the output of i)roduction in the industrial field, or to restrict trade and reduce the profits in the commercial field, in order to secure A-om their employers better conditions or to enforce those promised or maintain those already prevailing, when no other way of redress is open. B. Any skillful operation on the machinery of production intended not to destroy it or permanently render it defective, but only to temporarily disable it and to put it out of running condition in order to make impossible the work of scabs and thus to secure the complete and real stoppage of work during a strike. Whether you agree or not, Sabotage is this and nothing but this. It is not destructive. It has nothing to do with violence, neither to life nor to property. It is nothing more or less than the chloroforming of the organism of production, the " knock-out drops " to put to sleep and out of harm's way the ogres of steel and fire that watch and multiply the treasures of King Capital. ******* This booklet is not written for capitalists nor for the upholders of the capi- talist system, therefore it does not purpose to justify or excuse Sabotage before the capitalist mind and morals. Its avowed aim is to explain and expound Sabotage to the working class, ■especially to that part of it which is revolutionary in aim if not in method, and BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 1035 as this ever-growing fraction of the proletariat has a special mentality and hence a special morality of its own, this introduction purports to prove that Sabotage is fully in accordance with the same. W Sr ^ ^ s|: j» J Let us therefore consider Sabotage under its two aspects, first as a personal relaxation of work when wages and conditions are not satisfactory, and next as a mischievous tampering with machinery to secure its complete immobiliza- tion during a strike. It must be said with especial emphasis that Sabotage is not and must not be made a systematic hampering of production, that it is not meant as a perpetual clogging of the workings of industry, but that it is a simple expedient of war, to be used only in time of actual warfare with sobriety and moderation, and to be laid by when the truce intervenes. Its own limitations will be self-evident after this book has been read, and neeil not be explained here. * * * * 4: * H« Well, now, for ar,gument's sake, why shouldn't you admire a striker who went as scab, say, to work in the subway, and then by putting a red lantern in the wrong place (or rather in the right place) disarranges and demoralizes the whole system? If a single, humble red lantern can stop an express train and all the trains coming behind it, and thus tie up the whole traffic for hours, isn't the man who does this as much of a benefactor to his striking brothers as the soldier mentioned above to his army? Surely this is " ethically justi- fiable " even before the Capitalist morality, if you only admit that there is a state of belligerency bettveen the ^corking class ancD the capitalist class. Saboteurs are the gclaireurs, the scouts of the class struggle, they are the "sentinelles perdues " iit the outposts, the spies in the enemy's own ranks. They can be executed if they are caught (and this is almost impo.ssible), but they cannot be disgraced, for the enemy himself, if it be gallant and brave, must honor and respect bravery and daring. Now that the bosses have succeeded in dealing an almost mortal blow to the boycott, now that picket duty is practically outlawed, free speech throttled, free assemblage prohibited, and injunctions against labor are becoming ejiidemic; Sabotage, this dark, invincible, terrible Damocles' sword that hangs over the head of the master clnss, will replace all the confiscated weapons and ammuni- tion of the army of the toilers. And it will win, for it is the most redoubtable of all, except the general strike. In vain may the bosses get an injunction against the strikers' funds — Sabotage will get a more powerful one against their machinery. In vain may they invoke old laws and make new ones against it — they will never discover it, never track it to its lair, never run it to the ground, for no laws will ever make a crime of the " clumsiness and lack of skill " of a " scab " who bungles his work or " puts on the bum " a machine he " does not know how to run." There can be no injunction against it. No policeman's club. No rifle diet. No prison bars. It cannot be starved into submission. It cannot be discharged. It cannot be blncklisted. It Is present everywhere and everywhere invisible, like the airship that soars high above the clouds in the dead of night, beyond the reach of the cannon and the searchlight, and drops the deadliest bombs into the enemy's own encampment. Sabotage is the inost foi-midable weapon of economic warfare, which will eventually open to the workers the great iron gate of capitalist exploitation and lead them out of the house of bondage into the free land of the future. Aktuko M. Giovannitti. Essex Co. .Iatl, Lawrence. :\Iass., August. 1912. Sabotage. OEIGIN of sabotage — ITS EARLY APPEARANCE BALZAC ON SABOTAGE — THE ENGLISH " GO CANNY " BAD WAGES, BAD WORK NEW HORIZONS PANIC AMONGST THE BOSSES AN IMPRESSING DECLARATION AN EPOCH-MAKING DISCUSSION AT THE CONGRESS OF THE C. G. T. — TRIUMPHANT ENTRANCE OF SABOTAGE IN FRANCE. Up to fifteen years ago the term Sabotage was nothing but a slang word, not meaning " to make wooden shoes " as it may be imagined but, in a figurative way, to work clumsily as if by sabot * blows. 1 Sabot means a wooden shoe. 1036 boijShevik propaganda. Since then the word was transformed into a new form of social warfare and I he Congress of Toulouse of the General Confederation of Labor in 1897 re- ceived at last its syndical baptism. The new term was not at first accepted by the worliing class with the warmest enthusiasm — some even saw it with mis- trust, reproaching it not only for its humble origin but also its immorality. Nevertheless, despite all these prejudices which seemed almost hostilities. Sabotage went steadily on its way around the world. It has now the full sym- pathy of the workers. * * * * * =9 t The bourgeoisie, of course, has felt itself struclt at heart by Sabotage — that is, struck in its pocketbook. -And yet^-lm it said without Oftehsive* intent ion — the good old lady must resign herself and get used to living in the constant company of Sabotage. Indeed it would be wise for her to make the best of what she cannot prevent or suppress. As she must familiarize herself with the tliought of her end (at least as a ruling and owning class), so it were well for her to familiarize herself ^■^•ith Sabotage, which has nowadays deep and inde- structible roots. Harpooned to the sides of capitalistic society it shall tear and bleed it until the shark turns the final somersault. It is already, and shall continually become more so — worse than a pestifer- ous epidemic — worse, indeed, than any terrible contagious disease. It shall become to the body social of capitalism rtiore dangerous and incurable than cancer and syphilis are to the human body. Naturally all this is quite a bore for this scoundrelly society — but it is inevitable and fatal. It does not I'pquire to lie a great projihet to predict that the more we progres.«i. the more we shall Sabot. * * * -It + * * The most important part of a strike, therefore, precedes the strike itself and consists in reducing to a powerless condition the working instruments. It is the A B C of economic warfare. It is only then that the game bet\^'een masters and workers is straight and fair, as it is clear that only then the complete cessation of work becomes real and produces the designed results, i. e., the complete arrest of labor activity within the capitalist shop. Is a strike contemplated by the most indispensable workers — those of the alimentai-y trades? A quart of kerosene or other greasy and malodorous mat- ter poured or smeared on the level of an oven * * * and welcome the scnbs and scabby soldiers who come to bake the bread ! The bread will be uneatable because the stones will give the bread for at least a month the foul odor of the substance they have absorbed. Results : A useless oven. Is a strike coming in the iron, steel, copper or any other mineral industry? A little sand or emery -powder in the gear of those machines which like fabu- lous monsters mark the exploitation of the workers, and they will become palsied and useless. The iron ogre will become as helpless as a nursling and with it the .scab. * * * * « * ♦ A. Renault, a clerk in the Western Railroad, has touched on the same argu- ment in his volume " Syndicalism in the Railroads," an argument which cost him liis position at a trial in which the commission acted as a court martial. " To be sure of success," explained Renault, " in case that all railroad workers, do not quit their worlf at once — it is indispensable that a stratagem of which it is useless to give here the definition be instantaneously and simultaneously applied in all important centers as soon as the strilte is declared. For this it would be necessary that pickets of comrades determined to prevent at any cost the circulation of trains be posted in every important center and locality. It would be well to choose those worlcers amongst the most skilled and experienced, such as could find the weak points offhand without commit- ting acts of stupid destruction, who by their open-eyed, cautious and intelligent action as well as energetic and efficacious skill, would by a single stroke disable and render useless for some days the material necessary to the regular perform- ance of the service and the movement of the trains. It is necessary to do thi.f seriously. It is well to reckon beforehand with the scabs and the military. * * 1 * » * * This tactic which consists in reinforcing with the strike of the machinery the strike of the arms ^^'ould appear low and mean — but it is not so. The class conscious toilers well know that they are but a minority and tliej fear that their comrades have not the grit and energy to resist to the end. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 1037 Therefore, in order to check desertion and cut off the retreat to the mass, tliey burn the bridges behind them. This result is obtained by taking away from the too submissive workers the Instrument of their labor — that is to say by paralyzing the machine which made their efforts fruitful and remunerative. ******* If the workers disable tlie machines it is neither for a whim nor for dilet- tantism or evil mind but solely in obedience to an imperious necessity. It •should not be forgotten that for many workers in the majority of strikes it is a question of life and death. If they do not paralyze the machines they surely go on to unavoidable defeat, to the wreck of all their hopes. On the other hand by applying sabotage the workers will surely call upon them the curses and insults of the bourgeoisie — but will also insure to themselves many great probabilities of success. ******* The workers' sabotage is inspired by generous and altruistic principles. It is a shield of defense and protection against the usuries and vexations of the bosses ; it is the weapon of the disinherited who, whilst he struggles for his family's existence and his own, aims also to better the social conditions of his class and to deliver it from the exploitation that strangles and crushes it. It is the ferment of a better life. Extracts from Pamphlet Entitled " Sabotage " by Elizabeth Gublet Flynn. its necessity in the class war. I am not going to attempt to justify sabotage on any moral ground. If the workers consider that sabotage is necessary, that in itself makes sabotage moral. Its necessity is its excuse for existence. And for us to discuss the morality of sabotage would be as absurd as to discuss the morality of the strike or the morality of the class struggle itself. In order to understand sabotage or to accept it at all it is necessary to accept tlie concept of the clasd struggle. If you believe that between the workers on the one side and their employers on the other there is peace, there is harmony such as exists between brothers, and that consequently whatever strikes and lockouts occur are simply family squabbles ; if you believe that a point can be reached whereby the em- ployer can get enough and the worker can get enough, a point of amicable adjustment of industrial warfare and economic distribution, then there is no justification and no explanation of sabotage intelligible to you. * * * Sabotage is to this class struggle what the guerrilla warfare is to the battle. The strike is the open battle of the class struggle, sabotage is the guerrilla war- fare, the day-by-day warfare between two opposing classes. GENEKAL FOKMS OF .SABOTAGE. Sabotage was adopted by the General Federation of Labor of France in 1897 as a recognized weapon in their method of conducting fights on their employers. But sabotage as an instinctive defense existed long before it was ever officially recognized by any labor organization. Sabotage means primarily : the icitli- drawal of efficiency. Sabotage means either to slacken up and interfere with the quantity, or to botch in your skill and interfere with the quality, of capitalist production or to give poor service. It is something that is fought out within the four walls of the shop. Sabotage is not physical violence, sabotage is an internal industrial process. And these three forms of sabotage — to affect the quality, the quantity and the service are aimed at affecting the profit of the employer. Sabotage is a means of striking at the employer's profit for the purpose of forcing him into granting certain conditions, even as vvorkingmen strike for the same purpose of coercing him. It is simply another form of coercion. * ****** Working-class sabotage is aimed directly at " the boss " and at his profits, in the belief that that is the solar plexus of the employer, that is his heart, his religion his sentiment, his patriotism. Everything is centered in his pocket book, and if you strike that you are striking at the most vulnerable point in his entire moral and economic system. 1038 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. BOYD'S ADVICE TO SILK MILL SLAVES. So it is with the quality. Take the case of Frederic Sumner Boyd, in which we should all be deeply Interested because it is evident Frederic Sumner Boyd is to be made " the goat " by the authorities in New Jersey. That is to say, they want blood, they want one victim. If they can't get anybody else, they are determined they are going to get Boyd, in order to serve a two-fold purpose to cow the workers of Paterson, as they believe they can, and to put this thing, sabotage, into the statues, to make it an illegal thing to advociite or to practice. Boyd said this : " If you go back to work and you find scabs working alongside of you, you should put a little bit vinegar on the reed of the loom in order to prevent its operation." They have arrested him under the statute forbidding the advocacy of the destruction of property. He advised the dyers to go into the dye houses and to use certain chemicals in the dyeing of the silk that would tend to make that silk unweavable. * H= s** =1= * * * Sabotage is for the workingman an absolute necessity. Therefor it is almost useless to argue about its efCectiveness. \\'hen a man uses sabotage he is usually intending to benefit the whole; doing an individual thing but doing it for the benefit of himself and others together. And it requires courage. It requires individuality. It creates in that working man some self-respect for and self-reliance upon himself as a producer. I contend that sabotage instead of being sneaking and cowardly is a courageous thing, is an open thing. The boss may not be notified about it through the papers, but he finds out about it very quickly, just the same. And the man or woman who employs it is demonstrating a courage that you may measure in this way: How many of the critics would do it? How many of you, if you were dependent on a job in a silk town like Paterson would take your job in your hands and employ sabotage? If you were a machinist in a locomo- tive shop and had a good job, how many of you would risk it to employ sabotage? Consider that and then you have the right to call the man who uses it a coward — if you can. EXTBACTS FEOM PaMPHI.ET ENTITLED " THE OkWAKD SwEEP OF THE MACHINE Pbocess." AVhile the craft unions (the American Federation of Labor) says that the workers must organize to get a " fair share " of what they produce, the indus- trial organization (the Industrial Workers of the World) says that the workers must organize to get all they produce. The I. W. W. also says : " The workers made the machines, and the workers run the machines ; therefore, by God, the machines should also belong to the workers." Extracts fkom Pamphlet Entitled " The Revolutionary I. W. W.," by Geovee H. Peeet. obganizing a new social system. The I. W. W. is fast approaching the stage where it can accomplish its mis- sion. This mission is revolutionary In character. The Preamble of the I. W. W. Constitution says in part: "By organizing industrially, we are forming the structure of the new society within the shell of the old." That is the crux of the I. W. W. position. We are not satisfied with a fair day's wages for a fair day's work. Such a thing is impossible. Labor produces all wealth. Labor therefore is entitled to all wealth. We are going to do away with capitalism by taking possession of the land and the machinery of production. We don't intend to buy them, either. The capitalist class took them because it had the power to control the muscle and brain of the working class in industry. Organized, we, the working class, will have the power. With that power we will take back that which has been stolen from us. We will demand more and more wages from our employers. We will demand and enforce shorter and shorter hours. As we gain these demands we are diminishing the profits of the boss. We are taking away his power. We are gaining that power for ourselves. All the time we become more disciplined. AVe become self confident. We realize that without our labor no wealth can BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1039 be produced. We fold our arms. The mills close. Industry is at a standstiU. We then make our proposition to our former masters. It is this : We, the work- ers, have labored long enough to support idlers. From now on, he who does not toil, neither shall he eat. We tear down to build up. Extracts from Booklet " The I. W. W., Its Histoky, Structure and Methods," BY Vincent St. John. THE I. W. W. A BEIEP HISTORY. In the fall of 1904 six active workers in the revolutionary labor movement held a conference. After exchanging views and discussing the conditions then confronting the workers of the United States, they decided to issue a call for a larger gathering. These six workers were Isaac Cowen, American representative of the Amal- gamated Society qf Engineers of Great Britain ; Clarence Smith, general secre- tary-treasurer of the American Labor Union; Thomas J. Hagerty, editor of the " Voice of Labor," official organ of the A. L. U. ; George Estes, president of the United Brotherhood of Railway Employees ; W. L. Hall, general secretary- treasurer U. B. R. R. E., and Wm. B. Trautmann, editor of the " Erauer Zeitung," the official organ of the United Brewery Workers of America. Invitations were then sent out to thirty-six additional individuals who were active in radical labor organizations and the socialist political movement of the United States, inviting them to meet in secret conference in Chicago, Illinois, January 2, 1905. Of the thirty-six who received invitations, but two declined to attend the proposed conference — Max S. Hayes and Victor Berger — both of whom were in editorial charge of socialist political party and trade union organs. The conference met at the appointed time with thirty present and drew up the Industrial Union Manifesto calling for a convention to be held in Chicago, June 27, 1905, for the purpose of launching an organization in accord with the principles set forth in the Manifesto. The work of circulating the Manifesto was handled by an executive com- mittee of the conference, the American Labor Union and the Western Federa- tion of Miners. The Manifesto was widely circulated in several languages. On the date set the convention assembled with 186 delegates present from 34 state, district, national and local organizations . representing about 90,000 members. All who were present as delegates were not there in good faith. Knowledge of this fact caused the signers of the Manifesto to constitute themselves a temporary committee on credentials. This temporary credentials committee ruled that representation for organiza- tions would be based upon the number of members in their respective organiza- tions only where such delegates were empowered by their organizations to install said organizations as integral parts of the Industrial Union wheni formed. Where not so empowered delegates would only be allowed one vote. One of the delegations present was from the Illinois State District of the United Mine Workers of America. The membership of that district at that time was In the neighborhood of 50,000. Under the above rule these delegates were seated with one vote each. This brings the number of members repre- sented down to 40,000. Several other organizations that had delegates present, existed mainly on paper ; so it is safe to say that 40,000 is a good estimate of the number of workers represented in the first convention. The foregoing figures will show that the precautions adopted by the signers of the Manifesto were all that prevented the opponents of the industrial union movement from capturing the convention and blocking any efCort to start the organization. It is a fact that many of those who were present as delegates on the floor of the first convention and the organizations that they represented have bitterly fought the I. W. W. from the close of the first convention up to the present day. The organizations that Installed as a part of the new organization were^ Western Federation of Miners, 27,000 members; Social Trade and Labor Al- liance,' 1,450 members; Punch Press Operators, 168 members; United Metal Workers,' 3,000 members; Longshoremen's Union, 400 members; the American 1 Kxlsted almost wholly on paper. 1040 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Labor Union.' 16,000 members; United Brotherliood of Railway Employes, 2,087 members. The convention lasted twelve days ; adopted a constitution with the following preamble, and elected officers: OKIGINAL I. W. W. PKB.MIBLE. " The working class and the employing class have nothing in common. There can be no peace so long as hunger and want are found among millions of work- ing people and the few, who make up the employing class, have all the good things of life. " Between these two classes a struggle must go on until all the tollers come together on the political, as well as on the industrial iield, and take and hold that which they produce by their labor through an economic organization of the working class, without affiliation with any political party. " The rapid gathering of wealth and the centering of the management of industries into fewer and fewer hands make the trade unions unable to cope with the ever-growing power of the employing class, because the trade unions foster a state of things which allows one set of workers to be pitted against another set of workers In the same industry, thereby helping defeat one another in wage wars. The trade unions aid the employing class to mislead the workers into the belief that the working class have interests in common with their employers. " These sad conditions can be changed and the interests of the working class upheld only by an organization formed in such a way that all its members In any one industry, or in all industries, if necessary, cease work whenever a strike or lockout is on in any department thereof, thus making an injury to one an in.iury to all." All kinds and shades of theories and programs were represented among the delegates and individuals present at the first convention. The principal ones in evidence, however, were four : Parliamentary socialists — two types — impos- sibilist and opportunist, Marxian and reformist; anarchist; industrial unionist; and the labor union fakir. The task of combining these conflicting elements was attempted by the convention. A knowledge of this task makes it easier to understand the seeming contradictions in the original Preamble. The first year of the organization was one of Internal struggle for control by these different elements. The two camps of socialist politicians looked upon the I. W. W. only as a battle ground upon which to settle their respective merits and demerits. The labor fakirs strove to fasten themselves upon the organization that they might continue to exist if the new union was a success. The anarchist element did not interfere to any great extent in the internal affairs. Only one instance is known to the writer : that of New York City where they were in alliance with one set of politicians, for the purpose of con- trolling the district council. In spite of these and other obstacles the new organization made some prog- ress ; fought a few successful battles with the employing class, and started publishing a monthly organ, "The Industrial Worker." The I. W. W. also issued the first call for the defense of Moyer, Haywood and Pettibone under the title, " Shall our Brothers be Murdered? " ; formed the defense league; and it is due to the interest awakened by the I. W. W. that other organizations were enlisted in the fight to save the lives of the officials of the W. F. M. which finally resulted In their liberation. Thus the efforts of the W. F. M. in start- ing the I. W. W. were repaid." SECOND CONVENTION. The second convention met in September, 1906, with 93 delegates represent- ing about 60,000 members. This convention demonstrated that the administration of the I. W. W. was in the hands of men who were not in accord with the revolutionary program of the organization. Of the general officers only two were sincere — the General Secretary, W. E. Trautmann, and one member of the Executive Board, John Riordan. > Existed almost wholly on pappr. ' Berger in the " Social Democratic Herald " of Milwaukee denied that the Moyer, H|3J; wood and Pettibone ease was a part of the class struggle. It was but a " border feud said he. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 1041 The struggle for control of the organization formed the second convention into two camps. The majority vote of the convention was in the revolutionary- camp. The reactionary camp having the chairman used obstructive tactics in their effort to gain control of the convention. They hoped thereby to delay the convention until enough delegates would be forced to return home and thus change the control of the convention. The revolutionists cut this knot by abolishing the office of President and electing a chairman from among the revolutionists. In this struggle the two contending sets of socialist politicians lined up in opposite camps. The second convention amended the Preamble by adding the following clause : " Therefore without endorsing or desiring the endorsement of any political party." A new executive board was elected. On the adjournment of the convention the old officials seized the general headquarters, and with the aid of detectives and police held the same, compelling the revolutionists to open up new offices. This they were enabled to do in spite of the fact that they were without access to the funds of the organization, and had to depend on getting finances from the locals. The W. F. M. officials supported the old officials of the I. W. W. for a time financially and with the influence of their official organ. The same is true of the Socialist Party press and administration. The radical element in the W. F. M. were finally able to force the officials to withdraw that support. The old officials of the I. W. W. then gave up all pretense of having an organization. The organization entered its second year facing a more severe struggle than in its first year. It succeeded, however, In establishing the general headquar- ters again, and in issuing a weekly publication in place of the monthly, seized by the old officials. During the second year some hard struggles for better conditions were waged by the members. The third convention of the I. W. W. was uneventful. But it was at this convention that it became evident that the socialist politicians who had remained with the organization were trying to bend the I. W. W. to their purposes; and a slight effort was made to relegate the politician to the rear. The fourth convention resulted In a rupture between the politicians and industrial unionists because the former were not allowed to control the organi- zation. The preamble was amended as follows : I. W. W. PKEAMBLE. The working class and the employing class have nothing in common. There can be no peace so long as hunger and want are found among millions of work- ing people and the few, who make up the employing class, have all the good things of life. Between these two classes a struggle must go on until the workers of the world organize as a class, take possession of the earth and the machinery of production, and abolish the wage system. We find that the centering of the management of industries into fewer and fewer hands makes the trade unions unable to cope with the ever-growing power of the employing class. The trade unions foster a state of affairs which allows one set of workers to be pitted against another set of workers, in the same industry, thereby helping to defeat one another in wage wars. Moreover, the trade unions aid the employing class to mislead the workers into the belief that the working class have interests in common with their employers. These conditions can be changed and the interest of the working class upheld only by an organization formed in such a way that all its members in any one industry, or in all industries, if necessary, cease work whenever a strike or lockout is on in any department thereof, thus making an injury to one an injury to all. Instead of the conservative motto, "A fair day's wages for a fair day's work," we must inscribe on our banner the revolutionary watchword, "Abolition of the wage system." It is the historic mission of the working class to do away with capitalism. The army of production must be organized, not only for the every-day struggle with the capitalists, but also to carry on production when capitalism shall have 85723—19 66 1042 ■ BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. been overthrown. By organizing industrially we are forming the structure of the new society within the shell of the old. The politicians attempted to set up another organization claiming to be the real industrial movement. It is no'.hing but a duplicate of their political party and never functions as a labor organization. It i^ committed to a program of the " civilized plane," i. e. parliamentarism. Its publications are the official organs of a political sect that never misses an opportunity to assail the revolutionary workers \^•hile they are engaged in combat with some division of the ruling class. Their favorite method is to change the revolutionists with all the crimes that a cowardly imagination can conjure into being. " Dynamiters, assassins, thugs, murderers, thieves," etc., are stock phrases. Following the victory of the Lawrence textile workers the S. L. P. politicians - renewed their efforts to pose as the I. W. W. By representing that they were the I. W. W. and the only I. W. W. they were enabled to deceive several thousand textile workers in Paterson, Passaic, Hackensack, Stirling, Summit, Hoboken, Newark, New Jersey ; and Astoria, Long Island, and collect from them initiation fees and dues. In every instance these political fakers betrayed the workers into the hands of the mill owners, and the efforts of the workers to better their conditions resulted in defeat. At Paterson and Passaic the S. L. P. entered into an alliance with the police to prevent the organizers of the I. W. W. from ex- posing them to the workei's. Their own actions, however, resulted in exposing them to the workers in their true colors and today they are thoroughly discredited with the workers throughout the district. For a time the other wing of the political movement contented itself with spreading its venom in secret. Since the conclusion of the Larence strike the publications of the Socialist Party (with a very few exceptions) have never failed to use their columns to misrepresent and slander the organization and its active membership. Their attacks have extended to members of their own party who happened to be active members or supporters of the I. W. W. STEUCTUKE OF THE I. W. W. In its basic principle the I. W. W. calls forth that spirit of revolt and re- sistance that is so necessary a part of the equipment of any organization of the workers in their struggle for economic independence. In a word, its basic principle makes the I. W. W. a fighting organization. It commits the union to an unceasing struggle against the private ownership and control of industry. There is but one bargain that the I. W. W. will make with the employing class — complete surrender of all control of industry to the organized workers. The experience of the past has proven the mass form of organization, such as that of the Knighst of Labor, to be as powerless and unwleldly as a mob. I. W. W. TACTICS OB METHODS. As a revolutionary organization the Industrial Workers of the World aims to use any and all tactics that will get the results sought with the least ex- penditure of time and energj'. The tactics used are determined solely by the power of the organization to make good in their use. The question of " right '' and " wrong " does not concern us. No terms made with an employer are final. All peace so long as the wage system lasts, is but an armed truce. At any favorable opportunity the struggle for more control of industry is renewed. As the organization gains control in the industries, and the knowledge among the workers of their power, when properly applied within the industries, be- comes more general, the long drawn out strike will become a relic of the past. A long drawn out strike implies insufficient organization or that the strike has occurred at a time when the employer can afford to shut down — or both. Under all ordinary circumstances a strike that is not won in four to six weeks cannot be won by remaining out longer. In trustified industry the employer can better afford to fight one strike that lasts six months than he can six strikes that take place in that period. No par of the organization is allowed to enter into time contracts with the employers. Where strikes are used, its aim to paralyze all branches of the BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 1043- industry involved, when the employers can least afford a cessation of vi^ork — during tlie busy and when there are rush orders to be filled^ The Industrial AVorkers of the World maintains that nothing will he conr ceded by the employers except that which we have the power to take and hold by the strength of our organization. Therefore we seek no agreements withi the employers. Failing to force concession from the employers by the strike, work is resumed and " sabotage " is used to force the employers to concede the demands of the workers. The great progress made in machine production results in an ever increasing army of unemployed. To counteract this the Industrial Workers of the World aims to establish the shorter work day, and to slow up the working pace, thus compelling the employment of more and more workers. To facilitate the work of organization, large initiation fees and dues are pro- hibited by the I. W. W. During strikes the works are closely picketed and every effort made to keep the employers from getting workers into the shops. All supplies are cut ofC from strike bound shops. All shipments are refused or missent, delayed and lost if possible. Strike breakers are also isolated to the full extent of the power of the organization. Interference by the government is resented by- open violation of the government's orders, going to jail en masse, causing ex- pense to the taxpayers — which is but another name for the employing class. In short, the I. W. W. advocates the use of militant " direct-action " tactics to the full extent of our power to make good. The future belongs to the I. W. W. The day of the skilled worker is passed. Extracts From Pamphlet Entitled " The Red Dawn," by Haeeison Geoege, The Bolsheviki and the I. W. W. Here the writer challenges all philosophers, both bourgeois and i)suedo- socialist, by claiming that — now and hereafter — Wherever it is possible for the bourgeosie to rule the proletariat, it is possible for that proletariat to accom- plish its industrial freedom by revolution. ******* Imagine the Industrial Workers of the World — the I. W. W. — as having- organized American wage workers in its folds, and these workers controlling as well as operating all industries, and you have the same thing, the Bolsheviki have practically accomplished in Russia! Horrible! What? That depends. Impossible? If so, read what the learned professors of Economic Science said at their Association Convention of Minneapolis in December 1913. There, the advice, already given capitalists by a famous economist to prepare themselves for this very thing, i. e. ; the rule of the I. W. W. ; in the near future, over the whole of American production ; the advice given ttie rich to put their pampered sons and daughters to the acquiring of useful habits in factories, was read and very seriously discussed ! — Overalls ! ? ******* internationalism ? The thought of the world is fluid and streams across national boundary lines- The wave or bourgeois ideology that poured into Russia now is overturned and, with terrific force, its proletarian crest sweeps outward over Europe. The war between national groups of the bourgeoisie is changing, under pressure of Rus- sian workers, into a war between classes. Soon there will emerge an International Capitalist State of League of Na- tions, with an international military power to crush such sectional revolts as- happened in Russia. The bourgeoisie, ' excepting the extreme reactionists, al- ready are endorsing " Internationalism " again, as in " Government Owner- ship " feeding on the sentiment engendered by parliamentary socialists. The bouro-eoisie always are forced to mask their robbery of the workers behind the "camouflage" screen of popular (?) and representative (?) governments.- 1044 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. The " internationalism " of the parliamentary socialists will remain only a word, because with office-seeking eyes, they strive primarily to control national parliaments and remain nationalists. COSMO-INDXJSTRIALISM. The world proletariat is forced into economic organizations by the pressure of world capitalism. In various nations, Industrial Unionism, in itself a revo- lutionary labor structure, is in a state of forced formation. It is inevitable that industrial unty — solidarity — between the Industrial Unions of all countries shall be established and girdle the globe. World Labor shall establish a world industrial administration with a direc- tive body of workers for efficient service to all mankind. The world proletariat shall crush its enemy, without and within : break its rusty chains and establish real freedom — Industrial Freedom. The lession of the Bolsheviki and the road to power of the I. W. W. are before you. The former, an example of the possibility of the " impossibilism." Under different conditions than the I. W. W., the Bolsheviki took on tre- mendous odds by attempting to establish an industrial administration practi- cally born out of military mutiny. • But America's strongest element is the wage-working class. Scientifically organized labor is the efficient and bloodless weapon of the proletariat in its accomplishment of industrial revolution : and, at the same time, it is " the structure of the new society Avithin the shell of the old." No lives need be lost, not one drop of blood need be shed, if tlie working class will rally to the I. W. W. with its program of peaceful evolvement from wage- slavery to industrial Freedom. Will you respond and do your share for your own freedom? Full Page Advertisement fkom Newspaper " The Butte Dally Bulletln " " YOU, TOO !" Down with capitalism ! Down with the system which is founded on robbery ! Down with the system that robs us in the factories, mills and mines, and bleeds us to death on its bloody battlefields ! Down Arith an order that has the ethics of capital — the morals of profit ideals; of legal plunder! Down with it! It came covered with blood and dirt ; it will go out covered with dirt and blood. DoAATi it ! Down it forever ! Captalism means the land and natural resources are owned by the landlords and capitalist rulers who work not, but live by robbery which they call rent ^nd interest. Capitalism means that the mills, factories, and railroads, are owned and con- trolled by the capitalists and used for the further robbery of the working class. Capitalism means that all the machines of production and distribution are capital-owned by the capitalist, because they are not used for the production of useful things for all humanity, but are only used for production for exchange — for profit. Capitalism means that you, the working class, have to ask the capitalist class for a job, and when they give you one, you produce surplus value for them, which in turn means that you are robbed every day you work of about four- fifths of what you produce, or even more. Capitalism means riches for the few ; luxury for the idle ; monkey suppers for the indolent and debauched, whilst poverty, cruel-biting poverty, for the many. Capitalism means classes — the capitalist class and the working class. These classes can not be abolished as long as the capitalism exists, for they were brought in and will remain in existence through the very nature of capitalism. The capitalist class are very few, but they rob the many of hundreds of millions of dollars' w'orth of wealth each year. The working class are many, and they, through the medium of machine pro- duction, produce abundance, but they hunger and want because the capitalist class rob them of the fruits of their toil. The capitalist class can not consume all of the values that the working class produce, even though they dress poodle dogs in silken shirts, and eat them- selves to bursting. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1045 The woriiing class only consume that which their wages will buy back, which means about one-fifth ; therefore, the markets become glutted. The capitalist class will only run their factories, mills, and mines when they can get the desired amount of profit ; therefore, the working class are thrown out of employment when they have stocked the warehouses of the master class full and flooded the market with the products of their toil. The capitalist compete with one another in the sale of the commodities that their various wage-slaves have produced, and they have wars with one another. The working class fight these- wars, although they have nothing to sell but their labor power. The capitalists also compete with one another for world financial domina- tion — in other words, for who shall do the most robbing of the wage slaves. But the capitalists throughout the world unite to crush any attempt on the part of the workers to put a stop to the robbery. The working class children are robbed in the mills ; their sisters beaten into prostitution ; their brothers slaughtered in capitalist bloodfests, their fathers bled white that userers may grow round and fat. The capitalist class and the working class have nothing in common. The capitalist class and the working class are in a fight to death. The capitalist class and the working class are divided as masters and slaves. The class struggle — the war between the capitalist class and the working class is now reaching the final battle. The working class is lining up in Europe under the banner of the international proletariat. The Imperialists are now In the depth of their cunning schemes to rip the life out of the glorious Socialist Eepublic of Russia — to drown In blood the revolution of Central Europe. The working class of all countries must unite and down this brutal cunning, robbing capitalist class. The working class must act as a class. Fight en masse. Class-action and mass-action are the same. Are you with us, fellow-workers? This is a call from yoiir mates in the factory — your comrades in oppression. Are you a coward or a red-blooded rebel? If you are a cowardly cur : then do your master's bidding, help him to crush your class ; stab the whitened bosom of your sisters and wives and hold your children in the hell of capitalist slavery. If you are a rebel and hate your master's bloody, greedy rule, then arouse your fellow-workers to action. Raise your banner high. The day is here. Push back the tyrants. Rip their hypocritical masks from the faces made horrible by their greed. Down with them, you sons of freedom ! No compromise ! No reforming slavery ! No more red herrings and sops to quiet our voices ! Down with capitalism ! All power to the working class ! AVe have nothing to lose but our chains ; we have a world to gain ! Come on you sons of toil — be you an artisan in the factory or a worker at the plough ! Come on ! Down with capitalism ! Up with the glorious common- wealth of the workers ! Come on ! Victory to the working class ; down with capitalism. Workers' Council of Butte. "(Paid advertisement.) EXTKACTS FEOM NEWSPAPER " DEFENSE NewS BULLETIN " CHICAGO. ^ X * * * ^ * Wait not to be backed by numbers. Wait not until you are sure of an echo from the crowd. The fewer the voices on the side of truth the more dis- tinguished strong and distinct must be your own. WOKKERS OF AMERICA, AWAKEN. Justice .should be the surest the most available and impartial thing obtain- able from the courts for man. But alas in America at least, it has become an expensive luxury. It does not take a scholar or a student of any sort to realize that the common, average man of the street has very little respect for the law as it is administered in the Courts of the United States of America today. 1046 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. We awakened self-confidence and lit the fire of enthusiasm in the hearts of Tnillions upon millions of workers of all countries. We sent broadcast the -clarion call of the international working class revolution. We challenged the imperialism plunderers of all countries. * * * EXTEACTS FKOM PAMPHI^T ENTITLED " THE LaBOE DEFEXDEE," DECEMBEB 1, 1918. ******* A mass-meeting of ten thousand people in Chicago, November 17th, cheered for the red flag and the Bolsheviki, denounced foreign intervention in Russian affairs and demanded the " immediate annulment of all sentences against champions of the working class who have been subjected to trial and im- prisonment under the pretense of war necessity. SUCCESSFXJI. EEVOLUTIONS. A successful revolutionary uprising cannot come as a bolt from the clear blue sky. Mere dissatisfaction with existing conditions, no matter how vio- , lently it may be expressed, cannot be successful in its initial onslaught, nor can It remedy the conditions that were tlie cause of its outbreak. Such a revolt may have the effect of merely overthrowing one class of oppressors in favor of another. It cannot do away with economic oppression, because the oppressed and rebellious class is not prepared to assume control over its own destinies. Only when the masses have become inculcated with an Intense spirit of class solidarity, only when there has been created within them an indomitable confi- dence in their own powers, can they hope to reap the fruits of the great revolu- tionary struggle. — Ludwig Lore. stingbeettes. They thought they'd get the Stars and Stripes into Berlin first, but the red flag beat them to it ! ExTEACTS From Newspapee "The Industrial Unionist" Seattle, W^sh., Jakuaey 2.5, 1919. notice to bulgaeian fellow woekees. Other I. W. W. Papers Please Copy. Your attention is called to the fact that a new Bulgarian paper has been placed in the field. The name of this new propaganda medium is " Probuda " and the first issue will be off the press on Jan. 20th. All Bulgarian Fellow Workers should immediately decide how many copies of this paper they can handle and write in for subscription books and bundle orders. If every one of us does his share it will only be a short time until this paper is on a solid founda- tion. Every new language paper that is put in the field is one more blow struck at the citadel of capitalism. We, the Bulgarian fellow workers of Seattle ask that everybody interested will get in and boost for the new paper. The class war is spreading from Europe al! over the world and to prepare for our part in the coming crisis we must have a strong wor]i:ing class press. The address of the new paper is Probuda, 1001 Medison St., Chicago. Fkcui THE Labor Defender. CHANGE OF NAME. With the next issue of this paper, we shall change the name to The Rebel Worker. _ The time has come to drop the defensive and go back to the good old I. W. W. doctrine of offensive tactics — offensive to the masters and to all their tools, including the lickspittle editors, smug-voiced preachers and vote-hunting pollti- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1047 cians. There Is a new spirit throughout the organization. We have learned that the best defense is aggressive organization and education. Come out of your holes, fellow workers, and get on the firing line. CHINESE I. W. W. OEGAKIZE IN NEW YOEK. Just before Christmas, a Chinese branch of the I. W. W. was started in New York City among restaurant and laundry workers, with an initial mem- bership of seventy-five. They have applied to Chicago headquarters for a charter and intend to start a Chinese paper. Their headquarters are at 33 Mott Street, apartment 19. The bosses' secret association have offered their professional gunmen $500 reward if they will " get " the Chinese worker who has put this across. A :,; ,1: 4: iC ,(; :{; Among the organzations actively affiliated in the new Workers Defense Union of New York is the Syndicate of Chinese Workers. TWO NEW I. W. W. PAPERS. The Finnish I. W. AV. members in New York have just started a Finnish paper entitled Loukkataistelu ("The Class Struggle"). The price is 25c. per copy. The publication office is at 58 B. 123rd Street, New York. We urge all Finnish Fellow workers to .lump in vigorously and help establish this newest addition to the list of I. W. W. foreign language papers. We have received the following letter regarding the publication of a new Jewish revolutionary papers and ask that all Jewish speaking rebels in the northwest comply with the request contained in it. Fellow Workee : The Jewish speaking members of the I. W. W. in New York organized into a Jewish Speaking Publishing Association have decided to publish a Jewish papers which will be devoted to the propagation of Revolu- tionary Industrial Unionism. We will soon announce the name of the paper and request all Fellow Workers interested to send us articles, correspondence job news, etc. All mail should be addressed to the following temporary address. ZINA BENDER, 27 E. 4th St., N. Y. Watch these columns for further announcements. Extracts From Newspaper " The Industrial Unionist " of January 1, 1919, Seattle, Washington. we do not defend ; we accuse. Ever since the time the United States entered the world war the servants of the capitalist class have used the pretext of patriotism to wage a bitter civil war against all the liberal forces in this country, with particular attention to the Industrial Workers of the World. As a consequence, the sections of the working class on whom the brunt of these capitalist attacks have fallen have been obliged to spend considerable time in answering false accusations and in trying to keep the record clear in the public eye. These conditions made it necessary for the I. W. W. to issue various Defense Bulletins and to fight on the defensive most of the time. Right from the start it should be understood that this paper is not a Defense Bulletin. It is an Offense Bulletin. We propose to carry the fight into the camp of the enemy and to wage a war against the intrenched institu- tions of as worthless a class as has ever been recorded in history. If it be a crime to contrive to be dangerous to a class which has made a mockery of the lives of the useful producers, a class whose position is based upon the slavery and degradation of the vast majority of mankind, a class which has its foundations in an enforced prostitution of the minds and bodies of men and women and which has even sunk so low as to flaunt a tinseled pomp and power created from the labor of babies in industries and sanctioned by the Supreme Court, then we must plead guilty from the outset and confess that we glory in our actions. 1048 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Even were we to admit the obviously false and accept the idea that the I. W. W. has been guilty of all the things charged against it in the kept press of the employers, still would the record of the capitalist class of America and of the world be so black by comparison as to give the I. W. W. just reason for pride. The sordid history of the ruling class does not make nice reading. It contains a record of adulterated food, shoddy materials furnished to the government and to the private purchasers, of faultily constructed bridges, of sawdust life preservers, of inflammable fire curtains, or purposely defective arms, ammunition, aeroplanes and army equipment, of unsafe mines, of coffin ships, and child labor, of robbery, murder, and rapine, and of interna- tional gambling with the lives of helpless humans as stakes in the game. And the fact that the peoples of other countries have already risen or are rising and the gathering of the storm clouds in this country are proof that this worth- less class has grossly mismanaged society. So we do not defend ; we accuse. Tho we know that the answer may be the torch or the rope or the jail from those whose reign is based on brute force instead of logic, still we do accuse. With full knowledge of all it entails, we, the indicted, herewith launch the Industrial Unionist as a weekly indictment of the capitalist class. EXTEACTS FROM XeWSPAPEE " THE NEW SOLIDAEITY " OF JakUAEY 18, 1919, Chicago, Illinois, american unit of international. Superior, Wise. — The Workers Council idea is sweeping Duluth and Superior like wild-fire. All the Socialists, with the exception of the Finnish Local in Superior which out-yellows the yellows, have joined forces with the AVoblies to create what we hope will become the American unit of the Red International. Soon the Council will make a drive to line up the Bed minorities in the craft unions. The constitution of the Council states : " Its object shall be to prepare the working class of this territory for the social revolution, that is, to demand that the capitalist class surrender unconditionally the ownership of the means of production and distribution to the industrially organized workers, and the reconstruction of society on the basis of the dictatorship of the proletariat. " This Council is prepared to use whatever methods and tactics may seem from time to time most effective to accomplish its purpose. Its conception of the new society and the way to attain it is identical with that of our com- rades, the Bolsheviki of Russia, the Spartaeus Group of Germany, and groups with similar purposes in every country." :{: ^ :f: H: H< ^ 4: CROCODILE TEAES. Great sobs well up from the heart of the American press about the " Red Terror " in Russia. Sorrow has been shed because of the killing of a few business men and army tyrants, but nothing said about the " white terror " of those same business men and army tyrants. But sometimes a stray note slips thru that gives a glimpse of the facts. Such a glimpse is afforded by three photos that are reproduced in the " Star " of Rockford, 111. The statement that goes with the photos is as follows : These photographs by Dr. Harold Nattwig, chief of the Norwegian Red Cross brigade accompanying White Guard troops in Finland, were taken one immedi- ately after the other. No. 1 shows a firing squad immediately after a salvo. The troopers are straining forward to see the results of their marksmanship on 16 Red Guards. No. 2 shows those reached by bullets in various stages of collapse. In No. 3 an officer is using his revolver to finish those not thoroughly done for by the firing squad. Note the vitality of one whose remaining life breath makes a white stream from the mouth. The White Guard executed after the method shown in these photos, upwards of 10,000. Such information as has been possible to get from Russia points to the fact that no one was executed by the " Red Terror " except they had first been tried BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1049 and proven guilty. The facts as proven with regard to the "White Terror" is that thousands were executed for no other reason than that they were workers who were supposed to be in favor of equality and freedom for all. Where the Bolsheviki slew their thousands, the imperialists have slain their tens of thousands. Extracts feom " Strike Bulletin " — Shipbuilders Industrial Union No. 325 or the I. W. W. — Seattle, Washington, Jan. 25, 1919. * * * Any labor strike that ever occurred or ever will occur regardless of its proportions was and Is direct action. Therefore direct action is not some- thing new. We may say, however, with more or less truth, that its great value as an abstract force — a modern force — has dawned upon the working class in recent years. Its great possibilities are as yet not fully conceived by the workers in general. Its final expression is the General Strike. The general strike if well organized and universal will bring the situation to such a point that a new system may be placed in operation without bloodshed. THE PROLETARIAT. [By Laura Payne Emerson.] Crushed by the weight of Church and state And driven by hunger's pain, Lean and gaunt from toil and want They are rising their rights to gain. And the church says : " Here our brothers dear Of you we are very fond. Through preacher and pope realize your hope lu the land of the great beyond. The vultures of state both small and great Good shepherds of the herd would be Come rally around our platform profound. Support us and you shall be free. In the halls of fame give us a name And your cause we'll ably plead ; We'll pass just law for your noble cause And to all your wants take heed. So the siren's song through centuries long Has silenced the crowd, alas ! While in serpent fold slimy and cold Has struggled the working class. And for reverence for law and the Gods that be They are given the club and gun ; Their blood soaks down through the groaning ground, And their cause seems far from won. Arise ! ye slaves, in tumultuous waves ; Break barrier, bond and creed ; The power you can wield on industrial field Is the only savior you need. You feed the world, you clothe the world, You fashion, and form, and make ; Reach forth your hand o'er the pulsing land. It is yours, reach forth and take. Let those play the game of political shame Who have nothing in common with you. On your own strength recline and in mill, shop and mine. Build a structure substantial and true— The social regime of the idealist's dream You'll shape from the forces that be ; And from church and state, murder and hate, The earth shall at last be free. 1050 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. E-TRACT FROM " THE IXDrSTEIAL UNION BXJI.LETIN " NoV. 1.J, 1918, SEATTLE District. What we, as revolutionary inclustrial unionists, ardentlv desire is that the worlcers of Germany continue their rebellion until every autocrat in that country is either wiped out or set to do some useful work, and that the victori-, D. C. That this country, its self-satisfied newspaper writers and statesmen, may have seriously misunderstood and underestimated the work that is going on in Russia is" indicated by two Russian photographs published in the New York Times yesterday. One shows Russian fighters now ruling Russia and recently pursuing allied troops, including our own, through the swamps in the north. The Times puts this line under that photograph : " Flower of the Bolshevist army, all well armed, many of them veteran troops of the old Russian regime, marching through the streets of Moscow." The photograph is so different from the usual pictures of Russian troops in old days that you look at it in wonder. Under the Czar, troop photographs showed men marching sullenly aud obedi- ently to be shot, not knowing why. The Times' photograph of Bolshevist Troops shows men alert, intelligent, keenly interested. The faces are those of men that know wh.\- they are fighting, want to flght, and mean to win. You can imagine such faces in the revolutionary army of France that carried victory everywhere — and gave Napoleon his reputation, when he got hold of them. If the Bolshevists have many such troops as The Times photograi)h shows, look out for such an army. It will not be beaten easily. Given the right leaders it will not be beaten at all — as long as it stays at home and fights for home. Another photograph, published by the Times, carries this line below it. " Muscovite boys and girls are taught by the Bolsheviki in free classes of instruction to handle the rifle skillfully as a requirement for graduation." The photograph shows two long lines of boys and girls of the high school age, one row kneeling, the second standing back of it. All have rifles leveled and evidently know how to hold and use them. The faces are concentrated, keen, full of force. The young women, especially, have a look that seems to say " I mean it." * * ■■ Headlines feom " The American BotsHEviK " Janu.^ky 17, 1919, Min'ne- APOLis, Minn., Vol. 1, No. 4. Bolsheviks Gave Land and Factories to Workers Says Williams— Noted Correspondent explodes Lies Told About Soviet Government. ******* Need of Bolshevism in This Country Shown by War Board Hearings— Pros- perity Bubble Exploded by Federal Investigators. ******* Forty-six I. W. W. Convicted in Judicial Farce at Sacramento— Accused of Everything from Murder Up and Down. Extracts from " The Liberator " March 1918. Surely the demands of the " I. W. W.", are just. It is right that the creators of wealth should own what they create. When shall we learn that we are BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1061 related one to the other ; that we are members of one body ; that injiary to one- is injury to all? Until the spirit of love for our fellowworkers, regardless of race, color, creed or sex, shall fill the world, until the great mass of the people- shall be filled with a sense of responsibility for each other's welfare, social justice cannot be attained, and there can never be lasting peace upon earth. Extracts fhoii " The Libeuatob " fob June 1918. * * * The world, fed \^ith lies by the capitalistic press, conceives the proletarian republic as an inchoate jumble of disorganization and tyranny, where anarchists, drunken soldiers and German agents dance a destructive, bacchanal. * * -!: i\i * * * The greater number of suppressions of newspapers resulted from their violation of the Bolshevik law making advertisements a Government monopoly ;: other papers were shut down for printing, in time of civil strife, lies (such as the widely heralded rape of the Women's Regiment in the Winter Palace), which incited frantic people to bloodshed on the streets; and still others, with a small bourgeois constituency and a large endowment, were put out of business because the newspapers of the proletarian parties, with their enormous public, needed the paper and the printing shops * * * As for the arrests, only those persons who were proved to be involved in plots of armed counter-revolution, those who were caught grafting, those who were responsible for the dissemination of lies, and the most active members of the old Provisional Government, were imprisoned . . Most of the officials of the Cadet Party, for example, which was declared " enemy of the peoiJle," are still at lai'ge. The " middle " and " right " Socialist leaders, Lieber, Dan, Gotz, Tseretelli, Skobelev and Tchernov, virhose opposition to the Bolsheviks went to the bitterest ends, are still (or were when I last heard from Russia) at liberty to write, plot and make speeches to huge audiences denouncing the Bolsheviks to their lieurts' content . . . Breshkovskaya is not arrested, Plechanov is not arrested, Tchaikowsky — he who rose in the Railway Workers' Convention in January and announced that the old-time Terrorist tactics against the Bolsheviks would be resorted to — is not arrested. The stories about bloodshed are of course ridiculously false. In the November days, ten Bolsheviks were killed in the attack on the- Winter Palace, and not one of the defenders who were simply disarmed and allowed to go home. In the various struggles of the next week, perhaps twenty junkers lost their lives. In the fighting against Kerensky, hundreds of Red Guards were killed and an insignificant number of Cossacks. In Mos- cow, where the fighting was bitterest, of the eight hundred that died, about five hundred and fifty were Bolsheviks. The attack on the peaceful demon- strations for the Constituent Assembly, in which several people were shot by Red Guards, aroused such a protest among the Petrograd workers that its effect was felt seriously in the elections to the Petrograd Soviet. And when a band of irresponsible madmen killed Shingariov arid Kokoshkin in prison, Lenin himself had them remorselessly hunted down and punished, with the full approval of the revolutionary masses. ^ A A * * * * It has taught me three things : That in the last analysis the property-owning class is loyal only to its property. That the property-owning class will never readily compromise with the working-class. That the masses of the workers are capable not only of great dreams, but that they have in them the power to make dreams come true. EXTBACTS FKOII " THE LiBEEATOK " FOB SePTEMBEE 1918. Think, for instance, of the difference between all the concrete elements of the situation Lenin confronted and mastered during the period of agitation against the pseudo-Socialist regime of Kerensky, the period of rebellion, the insurrec tionary capture of power in the capital, and the present period of arduous fai^ 1062 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. reaching labor at tlie construction of a new world. Nothing is the same now, except the ultimate end and the bare outline of the method of thought. All the sensations, emotions — of the pleasures — involved in " being a Socialist " ;'.re ■changed. And yet Lenin proceeds with his relentless, unsentimental iron-minded pragmatic thinking and acting in this new situation, and still writes his wise, patient, reiterative articles to the Russian people, as though to children, pleading with them to be philosophic and to understand the difference betwemi these different periods, and the emotions that belong to them, and give all their mind's attention to the definition of the present problems, and all their heart's energies to the kind of action that is demanded now for the achievement of the ultimate purpose upon which they are all agreed. ******* At present it has become the central problem. We, the Bolshevik party, have convinced Russia. We have won Russia from the rich for the poor, from the exploiters for the toilers. We have defeated the bourgeoisie, but they are not yet destroyed and nut eveuvompletely conquered. We must therefore resort to a new and higher form of the struggle with the bourgeoisie; we must turn from the very simple prob- lem of continuing the expropriation of the capitalists to the more complex and difficult problem — the problem of creating conditions under which the bourgeois could neither exist nor come anew into existence. Article in " The Libekatok " fob Octobek 1918. bkest-litovsk a brigand's peace. [By Nikolai Lenin.] The history of mankind is today recording one of the greatest and most diffi- cult crises, a crisis which has an enormous — we can say without the least exag- geration a world-wide — liberating significance. It is not surprising that at the most difficult points of such a crisis, when everywhere around us the old order Is crumbling and falling apart with tumult and crash, and a new order is being born in indescribable torments — it is not surprising that some are becoming bewildered, some become victims of despair, and others, to escape from the bitter reality, are taking cover behind beautiful and enchanting phrases. We have been forced, however, to see things clearly, as we pass through the sharp and painful experience of this most difficult- crisis of history which turns the world from imperialism towards communistic revolution. In a few ■days we destroyed one of the oldest, most powerful, barbarous and cruel monarchies. In a few months we passed through a number of stages of com- promise with the bourgeoisie and got over the petty bourgeois illusions, in the ;grip of which other countries have spent decades. In a few weeks we have •overthrown the bourgeoisie and crushed her open resistance in civil war. We passed in a victorious and triumphant procession of Bolshevism from one end of an enormous country to the other. We aroused to freedom and independence the most humble sections of the toiling masses oppressed by czarism and the bourgeoisie. AVe introduced and firmly established the Soviet republic— a new type of state — infinitely higher and more democratic than the best of the bourgeois-parliamentary republics. We established the dictatorship of the pro- letariat, supported by the ijoorest peasantry, and have inaugurated a compre- hensively planned system of Socialistic reform. We awakened self-confidence and kindled the fires of enthusiasm In the hearts of millions upon millions of workers of all countries. We sent broadcast the clarion call of the inter- national working class revolution. We challenged the imperialistic plunderers of all countries. . And in a few days an imperialistic brigand knocked us down, attackmg those who had no arms. He forced us to sign an incredibly oppressive and humiliating peace — a penalty for our daring to break away, even for as short a time as possible, from the iron grip of the imperialistic war. And the rnore threatening the spectre of a working class revolution in his own country rises before the brigand, the more furiously he oppresses and strangles and tears Russia to pieces. . AVe were compelled to sign a "Tilsit" peace. We must not deceive our- selves. We must have courage to face the unadorned bitter truth. We must BOLSHEVIK PKOPAGANDA. 1063 realize in full to the very bottom, the abyss of defeat, partition, enslavement and humiliation into which we have been thrown. The clearer we understand this, the firmer, the more hardened and ihflexible will become our will for liberation, our desire to arise anew from enslavement to independence, our firm determination to see at all costs, that Russia shall cease to be poor and weali, that she may become truly powerful and prosperous. She can become so, for we still have left sufficient expanse and natural resources to supply all and everyone, if not with abundance, at least with suffi- cient means of subsistence. We have the material in the natural resources, in the supply of human energy, and in the splendid impetus which the creative spirit of the people has received through the great revolution, to create a really mighty and abundant Russia. itussia will become so, provided she frees herself of all dejection and phrase- mongering ; provided she strains her every nerve and every muscle ; provided she comes to understand that .salvation is possible only on the road of the in- ternational Socialist revolution, which we have chosen. To move forward along this road, not becoming dejected in case of defeats, to lay, stone after stone, the firm foundation of a Socialist society, to work tirelessly to create discipline and self-discipline, to strengthen everywhere organization, order, efficiency, the harmonious cooperation of all the people's forces, universal accounting and control over production and distribution of products — such is the road towards the creation of military power and Socialist power. It is unworthy of a true Socialist, if badly defeated, either to deny that fact or to become despondent. It is not true that we have no way out and that we can only choose between a " disgraceful " (from the standpoint of a feudal knight) death, which an oppressive peace is, and a " glorious " death is a hope- legs battle. It is not true that we have betrayed our ideals or our friends when we signed the " Tilsit " peace. We have betrayed nothing and nobody, we have not sanctioned or covered any lie, we have not refused to aid any friend and comrade in misfortune In any way we could, or by any means at our disposal. A commander who leads Into the interior the renniants of an army which is defeated or disorganized by a disorderly flight and who, if necessary, protects this retreat by a most humiliating and oppressive peace, is not betraying those parts of the army which he cannot help and which are cut off by the enemy. Such a commander is only doing his duty, he is choosing the only way to save what can still be saved, he is scorning adventures, telling the people the bitter truth, " yielding territory in order to win time," utilizing any, even the shortest respite in order to gather again his forces, and to give the army, which is affected by disintegration and demoralization, a chance to rest and recover. We have signed a "Tilsit" pence. When .Napoleon I forced Prussia In 1807 to accept the Tilsit peace, the conqueror had defeated all the German armies, occupied the capital and all the large cities, established his police, compelled the conquered to give him auxiliary corps in order to wage new wars of plunder, dismembered Germany, forming an alliance with some of the German states against other German states. And nevertheless, even after such a peace the German people were not subdued. To any person able and willing to think, the example of the Tilsit peace (which was only one of the many oppressive and humiliating treaties forced upon the Germans in that epoch) shows clearly how ' childishly naive is the thought that an oppressive peace is, under all circumstances, ruinous, and war the road of valor and salvation. The war epochs teach us that peace has in many cases in history served as a respite to gather strength for new battles. The Peace of Tilsitz was the greatest humiliation of Germany and at the same time a turning point to the greatest national awakening. At that time the historical environment offered only one outlet for this awakening — a bourgeois state. At that time, over a hundred years ago, history was made by a handful of noblemen and small groups of bourgeois intellectuals, while the mass of workers and peasants were inactive and inert. Owing to this history at that time could crawl only with awful slowness. Now capitalism has considerably raised the level of culture in general and of the culture of the masses in particular. The war has aroused the masses, awakened them by the unheard of horrors and sufferings. The war has given impetus to history and now it is moving along with the speed of a locomotive. History is now being independently made by millions and tens of millions of people. Capitalism has now become ripe for Socialism. 1064 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Thus, if Russia now moves — and it cannot be denied tliat she does move from the " Tilsit '' peace to a national awakening, and to a great war for the fatherland — the issue of such an awakening is not the bourgeois state but the international Socialist revolution. A\'e are " resistants " since November 7, 1917. We are for the " defense of our fatherland," but the war for the father- land towards which we are moving is a war for a Socialist fatherland, for Socialism, we being a part of the universal army for Socialism. Extract from " The Libebatoe," Novembek, 1918. " It follows," says Trotsky in a preface to one of his books, " that the time spent in prison and exile is about one-third of the time a Social-Democrat is active." Reading that preface on my way west to attend the trial of Eugene Debs, I was struck by Trotsky's unconscious assertion that the time spent in prison is part of the time that a Socialist is " active." It is often the time that his influence is most active. And though the government may succeed in accel- erating the immediate war program by imprisoning Debs, they will also ac- celerate the effect of his life-long service to the social revolution. ON INTEEVENTION IN RUSSIA. [By John Reed.] Jiy point is, that the American people are misinformed about conditions in Europe, and especially in Russia, and that in the case of Russia our Govern- ment is acting upon false information. Moreover, people who are in a position to inform the public concerning the Russian situation are either ordered to keep silent, or, if they speak in public, arrested by the Department of Justice, and if they write in the press, barred from the mails by the Post Office Department. H« * ^ * * =i^ ^ The kind of Russian news usually fed the public is illustrated by the fre- quent newspaper reports stating that the Soviet Government has fallen, that Lenin and Trotsky have fled to Germany, and that chaos and anarchy are universal in Russia — statements which the very reports of the Allied com- manders in Russia have again and again demonstrated to be false. An example of what I mean is the series of dispatches, supported by no competent evidence, stating that thousands of people, especially foreigners, are being massacred by the Bolsheviki. The uncertainty of the newspapers themselves concerning the real situation in Russia was strikingly shown the other day, for example, by a story in the Xew York Times aliout the wholesale killing of British, French and Americans ; which was followed Ijy another item to the effect that ar- rangements have been completed b.v the Soviet Government and the Govern- ment of Finland for the safe conduct of all foreigners who wish to leave Russia. The gravity of the situation is intensified 1iy the recent release for publica- tion by the Committee on Public Information of a series of documents purport- ing to prove that the leaders of the Russian Soviet Government were in the pay of the Imperial German Government, and that their actions wei'e directed from Berlin. The fact is, that the authenticity of many of these documents is very doubtful. And the documents have been in the hands of the United States Government fer more than six montlis. Why were they not given out before this time? Or, more pertinently, why have they now been released? Was it to give color or excuse to an uninvited intervention in the aifairs of a friendly people, and, moreover, a people which has appealed to us for help against Germany ? There is definite evidence now in the T''nited States sufficient, I believe, to prove that the leaders of the Soviets have not been pro-German, but, on the contrary, if anything, pro-Ally. Strangely enough, this evidence is not allowed to reach the public. Colonel Raymond Robbins, former chief of the American Red Cros.s Mission to Russia and unofficial diplomatic agent of the United States Govern- ment in contact with the Russian Soviets, who has more information on the subject than any foreigner alive, has such evidence. So has Colonel William Boyce Thompson and Major Thomas Thacher — both of the Red Cross Mission. All these men have been ordered to remain silent. BOLSHEVIK PEOPAGANDA. 1065 I, myself, and certain otlier Americans, who liave had the opportunity to observe closely the character and actions of the Soviet Government, have been shut up by the simple expedient of taking away all documents and corrobora- tive papers which we brought back with us from Russia, on the- pretext of " examination." Only those ollicials and correspondents who are opposed to the Soviets, for one reason or another, are allowed freely to speak or write their erroneous facts and their baseless opinions. * * * But the point is that the Bolshevik revolution was a revolution against all imperialism, German imperalism included ; and the Soviet Government \A'as and still is the most powerful- menace to Imperial Germany, and all it implies, in the world ; and the Russian leaders, whatever the Germans may have thought they would do, have consistently labored to break up the German power, and to reorganize Russia industrially and in a military way, so as to turn again into open war the secret war they have been conducting so effectivel.'i'. I, myself, as well as several other Americans now in this country, can testify to this secret war and to its effects. I was employed by the Soviet Govern- ment, in the Commissariat of Foreign Affairs. Among other things, I assisted in the preparation of revolutionary propaganda to spread among the German troops and the German war-prisoners, and helped to set it to them. * * * The outstanding and misunderstood fact of the matter is that the Soviet Republic, based on the dictatorship of the working class, and the expropriation of the properties classes, could not and cannot exist side by side with Imperial Germany ; and even more so. Imperial Germany cannot hope to survive side by side with the Russian Soviets. It was to the interest of the Russian Soviets to enlist our aid in the destruction of their closest and most dangerous enemy. They attempted to do this — and we rejected their plea. But do not forget that it is also to the interest of Imperial Germany to prejudice the Allies against the Russian Soviets. And nothing can be so satisfactory to the Imperial German Government as Allied hostility to the Soviets, and Allied intervention in Rus- sia, which might drive the Soviets, in sheer self-defense, desperately to seek an ally in Germany. After all, the American people are entitled to know the real reasons for Allied intervention in Russia. The liberal European press — especially that of Great Britain — is outspoken in the opinion that it is dictated by the desire of the French Government to set up a Government in Russia which will guarantee the payment of Russian obligations, repudiated by the Soviets. The American statement concerning intervention justifies military action in Russia upon the grounds that the Tchecho-Slovak troops — who were sup- posed to be leaving Russia by way of Siberia to join the Allied armies on the western front — were attacked by " armed German and Austrian war-prisoners." Several months ago that same story of " armed German and Austrian war- prisoners in Siberia " reached Moscow, and at the request of Trotsky, members of the American and British military missions were given a special train to make an investigation of the charge. And they reported to their Governments that the story was without foundation. Other observers tell the same tale. * * * But whatever the phrasing of intention the Government^ of the Allies, our own included, stand sponsor to an expedition which has interfered with the political sovereignty of Russia, intervened in her internal affairs — even to the extent of supporting Governments hostile to the Soviet Government — and are considered by the Soviet Government to be waging war upon it. * * * And thousands of Americans who really believe in freedom will some day want to know why America, instead of leading the liberal world, joined with those whose faces are set against the tides of history. It is time that we knew the truth about Russia. Last March the constitution of the Soviets was worked out in detail and ap- plied universally. It restricted the franchise to — " Citizens of the Russian Socialist Republic of both sexes who shall have completed their eighteenth year by the day of election * * * "All who have acquired the means of living through labor that is productive and useful to society and who are members of labor unions * * * " Excluded from the right to vote ; employers of labor for profit ; persons who lived on unearned increment; merchants and agents of private business; em- ployee^ of religious communities; former members of the police and gendar- 1066 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. merie ; the former ruling dynasty ; the mentally deficient, the deaf and dumb ■ and those who had been punished for selfish and dishonorable misdemeanors'. * * * * * * , ' Under the Soviet Government the wage system is retained as a necessary accommodation to the capitalist world, the machinery to abolish It being already in place, and the whole system being under the control of the workers them'- selves. Lenin has clear-sightedly stated that he considers the retention of capitalist forms a step backward, a temporary defeat for the Revolution, but Which must be endured until the workers are self-organized and self-disciplined enough to compete with capitalist industry. ******* Not so. The Socialist state is not to be a return to primeval simplicity, hut instead a system of society more efficient than the capitalist state. In liussia particularly the immediate task of the workers is to be able to compete with the pressure of foreign capital, as well as to supply Russia with necessities. What is true of Russia, moreover, is true of the workers of all countries. Only in no other country have the workers clear-sighted leaders like Lenin; in no other country are the workers so united and so conscious. And in Russia there are groups of industries, like the Ural mines, like the factories of Vladivostok, where Workers' Control has actually improved upon capitalist management. And do not forget that industry belongs to the workers — is run for the profit of the workers. * * * A * ;^ * Across half the world we watch great Russia shake herself and take hold. In our ears sounds " the regular march of the iron battalions of the proletariat." Extract fkom " The Advancing Pkoletaeiat," Febkxtahy, 1917. Two facts stand out prominently in an examination of . modern society ; 1st, the proletariat is the subject class, and 2nd, the special function of the state is to keep the proletariat in subjection. Therefore, any organization of the proletariat as a class must at once be considered a menace to the privileged classes and be declared illegal. All the activities of the proletariat furthering its program for a new society must necessarily be revolutionary and be beyond the " Law." Therefore, the Socialist Politician's " legal revolution " idea Is regarded as absurd, by the proletariat ; and since the proletariat realizes that all its forces must be closely coordinated and drilled in production and co- operation in order to function in the new society, the idea that the whole economic structure of this present society can be changed by going to the polls once every two or four years is especially absurd. The proletariat makes no appeal to any but the wage working class, though it realizes that the growth of the Social Consciousness among all classes must bring thousands to its standard, whose immediate personal Interests wouUd be conserved by an opposite course. It realizes how great a task it is to persuade men against their material interests, and haw small the chance is to secure a majority at the polls — a majority, helpless in its strength because undis- ciplined in cooperation and composed of potentially discordant elements. But more it realizes that the proletariat, operating the machinery of production and really in possession of the wealth of the world, is in a position to dictate the terms of life to all society, if It merely secures the consent and co- operation of the members of its own class. It proposes that the ballot box shall repose first In the Union hall, and then in the shop ; and one needs only to function in Industry to be a voter there. The recently landed immigrant, who has a " job," Is equal to the descendant of the Pilgram Fathers, who also works for bread. The future society comes only at the desire and with the consent of the proletariat, for it is evidently the only class able to safeguard humanity by means of a new society ; and the revolution can properly occur, only after tlie proletariat has had sufficient training in voluntary co-operation and self-gov- ernment to be able to demonstrate Its ability to successfully continue produc- tion and handle distribution so that all may be fed. Voting en masse at Uie polls is no evidence whatsoever of such abiity, and to teach this class that its way to freedom lies primarily through the ballot box is a most miserable mis- education and paves the way to the most desperate catastrophy that humanity could ever suffer. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1067 Extract feom Pam:phi^t Entitled "The Xew U.xio^lsm," hy A\db£ Tkiuon. (Faiu-th printing. Pp. 95-105.) Tlie spirit of industrial solidarity manifested by the miners spread among otlier organizations. In the fall of 1904 Isaac Cowen, American representative of the Amalgamated Society of Engineers of Great Britain ; Clarence Smith, secretary and treasurer of the American Labor Union ; Thomas J. Hagerty, editor of the " Voice of Ijabor," organ of the A. L. U. ; George Estes, president of the United Brotherhod of Railway employees ; W. L. Hall, general secretary of the Brotherhood, and Wm. E. Trautman, editor of the " Brauer Zeitung," organ of the United Brewery Worliers of America, held a conference in Chicago. They Invited thirty-six other men active In the labor movement to meet them in secret conference on .lanuary 2, 1905. Out of the thirty-six, only two, Max S. Hayes, editor of a trade union paper, and Victor Berger, editor of a socialist publication, declined to attend. The conference met at the appointed time, selected William Dudley Haywood as chairman of its executive committee — the other members of the board being William E. Trautman, A. M. Slmonds, W. L. Hall and Clarence Smith — and drew up a manifesto addressed to the Workers of the World. It set forth the disadvantages of pure and simple craft organization and advocated the forming of one single union admitting all worliers regardless of craft or nationality. The manifesto ended with a call for a convention to be held in Chicago on June 27. This document translated into several languages was widely circu- lated by the executive committee assisted by the American Labor Union and the Western Federation of Miners. One hundred and eighty-six delegates met in Chicago, representing thirty- four State, district, local or national organizations. The convention lasted twelve days and when it adjourned the Industrial Workers of the World had been organized. The labor groups admitted to affiliation were : the Western Federation of Miners with 27,000 members ; the Socialist Trade and Labor Alliance, 1,450 members ; the Punch Press Operators, 168 members ; the United Metal Workers, 3,000 members ; the Longshoremen's Union, 400 members ; the American Labor Union, 16,500 members ; the United Brotherhood of Railway Employees, 2,087 members. The following preamble was adopted : The working class and the employing class have nothing in common. There can be no peace so long as hunger and want are found among millions of work- ing people and the few, who make up the employing class, have all the good things of life. Between these two classes a struggle must go on until all the toilers come together on the political, as well as on the industrial field; and take and hold that whicli they produce by their labor through an economic organization of the working class, without affiliation with any political party. The rapid gathering of wealth and the centering of the management of in- dustries into fewer and fewer hands make the trade unions unable to cope with the ever-growing power of the employing class, because the trade unions foster a state of things which allows one set of workers to be pitted against another set of workers in the same industry, thereby helping defeat one another in wage wars. The trade unions aid the employing class to mislead the workers into the belief that the working class have interests in common with their employers. These sad conditions can be changed and the interests of the working class upheld only by an organization formed in such a way that all its members in any one industry, or in. all industries, if necessary, cease work whenever a strike or lockout is on in any department thereof, thus making an injury to one an Injury to all. The uncertainties and the contradictions found in this preamble are easilj' understood when one bears in mind the heterogeneous elements which were represented at the first convention and whose divergent views had, to a certain extent, to be harmonized; parliamentary socinllsts, opportunists, IMarxists, anarchists, industrialists, craft unionists. During the first year of the I. W. W.'s existence, those irreconcilable elements struggled bitterly for supremacy. The two socialist factions looked upon the I. W. W. as a convenient battle ground. The I. W. W. survived this internal strife and began to issue a monthly organ, the " Industrial Worker." It also sent out the first call for the defense of Hay- wood, Moyer and Pettibone, the officers of the W. F. M. who had been arrested in connection with the assassination of Governor Steunenberg of Idaho. 1068 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. The second convention met in September, 1906, with ninety-three delegates representing 60,000 workers. The struggle for control divided the convention into two factions; the reactionaries with the help of the chairman tried to ob- struct the deliberation until such time as their opponents would be obliged ti> leave for their homes. The radicals succeeded in defeating these tactics but when the convention adjourned, the former officials seized the general head- quarters and held them with the assistance of the police. The newly elected officers, abandoned to their fate by the Western Federation of Miners and the socialist party, had to open headquarters of their own. The W. P. M. finally withdrew its support from the usurpers who gave up the struggle. At the third convention, which was quite uneventful, it became evident that the socialist politicians who had remained within the organization were striving to use it in furtherance of their own ends. In 1908, however, at the fourth convention, the purely industrialist element secured control of the organization. The wording of the preamble was greatly modified and in its amended version that document reflected the revolutionary trend of the new leaders. The second paragraph was changed to read thus : " Between these two classes a struggle must go on until the workers of the world organize as a class, take possession of the earth and the machinery of production, and abolish the wage system." Finally two new paragraphs were ailded to the preamble: " Instead of the conservative motto, 'A fair day's wages for a fair day's work,' we must inscribe on our banner the revolutionary watchword, 'Abolition of the wage system.' " It is the historic mission of the working class to do away with capitalism. The army of production nmst be organized, not only for the every-day struggle with capitalists, but also to carry on production when capitalism shall have been overthrown. By organizing industrially we are forming the structure of the new society within the shell of the old." The defeated politicians immediately organized .-mother I. W. W. committed to a parliamentary policy. It stands at present in the same relation to the first I. W. W. as the Socialist Labor Party stands to the Socialist Party. It is little more than a name and has not played any part in the labor disputes which have since arisen. At the first convention of the I. W. W. it was generally agreed that industrial unionism was to be primarily a departmental structure. The original consti- tution provided for thirteen departments. This system appeared impracticable and as the purely industrialist view was beginning to dominate the membership it was more and more definitely recognized that the Xew Unionism should organize from below upward. In other words, the local industrial union, not the department, was. to be the basis of organization. The discussions relative to departments talking place at the vai'ious conventions have only had a tenta- tive, almost academic character. A\'e quote the following from a pamphlet " The I. W. W., Its History, struc- ture and methods" by Yincent St. John, who is, at present, general secretary of the organization : GE>:Er.AL OUTLINE. 1. The unit of organization is the Local Industrial Union. The local indus- trial union embraces all of the workers of a given industry in a given city, town or district. 2. All local industrial unions of the same industry are combined into a Na- tional Industrial Union with jurisdiction over the entire industry. 3. National industrial unions of closely allied industries are combined into Departmental Organizations. For example, all national industrial unions en- gaged in the production of Food Products and in handling them would be com- bined into the Department of Food Products. Steam. Air, "Water and Land national divisions of the Transportation Industry, form the Transportation De- partment. 4. The Industrial Departments are combined into the General Organization, which in turn is to be an integral part of a like International Organization; and through tlie international organization establish solidarity and co-operation between the workers of all countries. SUBDIVISIONS. Taking into consideration the technical differences that exist within the difTerent departments of the industries, and the needs where large numbers BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1069 Of workers are employed, the local industrial union is branched to meet these requirements. 1. Language branches, so that the workers can conduct the altairs of the •organization in the language they are most familiar with. 2. Shop branches, so that the workers of each shop control the conditions that directly affect them. 3. Department branches in large industries, to simplify and systematize the husiness of the organization. 4. District branches, to enable members to attend meetings of the union with- out having to travel too great a distance. These branches are only necessary in the large cities and big industries where the industry covers large areas. ■5. District Councils, in order that every given industrial district shall have ■complete industrial solidarity among the workers in all industries of such dis- trict, as well as among the workers of each industi-y. The Industrial District Council combines ,ill the local industrial unions of the district. Through it ^■oncerted action is maintained for its district. riTNCTlONS OF BRANCHES. Branches of an industrial local deal with the employer only through the Industrial Union. Thus, while the workers in eacli branch determine the con- ditions that directly affect them, they act in concert with all the workers through the industrial union. As the knowledge of the English language becomes more general, the lan- guage branches will disappear. The development of machine production will also gradually eliminate tlie branches based on technical knowledge, or skill. The constant development and concentration of the ownership and control of industry will be met by a like concentration of the number of industrial unions and industrial departments. It is meant that the organization at all times sliall conform to the needs of the hour and eventually furnish the union through which and by which the organized workers will be able to determine the amount of food, clothing, shelter, education and amusement necessary to satisfj^ the wants of the workers. ADMINISTEATION OF THE ORGANIZATION. Local unions have full charge of all their local affairs ; elect their own officers ; determine their pay ; and also the amount of dues collected by the local from the membership. The general organization, however, does not allow any local to charge over $1.00 per month dues or ,f.5.00 initiation fee. Each branch of a local industrial union elects a delegate or delegates to the central committee of the local industrial union. This central committee is the administrative body of the local industrial union. Officers of the branches con- sist of secretary, treasurer, chairman and trustees. Officers of the local industrial union consist of secretary and treasvirer, chair- man and trustees. Bach local industrial union within a given district elects a delegate or dele- gates to the district council. The district council has as officers a secretary- treasurer and trustees. The officers of the district council are elected by the delegates thereof. All officers in local bodies are elected by referendum vote of all the member- ship involved, except those of the district council. Proportional representation does not prevail in the delegations of the branches and to district councils. Each branch and local has the same number of dele- gates. Each delegate casts one vote. National industrial unions hold annual conventions. Delegates from each local of the national union cast a vote based upon the membership of the local that they represent. The national industrial union nominates the candidates for officers at the convention, and the three nominees receiving the highest votes at the conven- tion are sent to all the membership to be voted upon in selecting the officers. The officers of the national unions consist of secretary and treasurer, and executive board. Each national union elects delegates to the department to which it belongs. The same procedure is followed in electing delegates as in electing officers. Industrial departments hold conventions and nominate the delegates that are elected to the general convention. Delegates to the general convention nomi- 1070 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. nate candidates fox- the offices of the general organization whicli are a General Secretary-Treasurer, and a General Oreanizer. These general officers are elected by the vote of the entire organization. The General Executive Board is composed of one member from each Indus- trial Department and is selected by the membership of the department. General conventions are held annually at present. The rule in determining the wages of the officers of all parts of the organiza- tion is, to pay the officers who are needed approximately the same wages they would receive when employed in the industry in which they work. The wages of the general secretary and the general organizer are each $90.00 per month. Concerning the methods of the Industrial Workers of the AA'orld Vincent St. John expresses himself as follows : As a revolutionary organization the Industrial Workers of the World aims to use any and all tactics that will get the results sought with the least ex- penditure of time and energy. The tactics used are determined solely Ijy the power of the organization to make good in their use. The question of " right " and " wrong " does not concern us. No terms made with an employer are final. All peace so long as the wage system lasts, is but an armed truce. At any favorable opportunity the struggle for more control of industry is renewed. The Industrial Workers realize that the day of s'uccessful long strikes is past. Under all ordinary circimistances a strike that is not won in four to six weeks cannot be won by remaining out longer. In trustified industry the employer can better afford to fight one strike that lasts six months than he can six strikes that take place in that period. The organization does not allow any part to enter into time contracts with the employers. It aims where strikes are used, to paralyze all branches of the industry involved, when the employers can least afford a cessation of worl; — during the busy season and when there are rush orders to be filled. The Industrial Workers of the AVorld maintains that nothing will be conceded by the employers except that which we have the power to take and hold by the strength of our organization. Therefore we seek no agreements with the employers. Failing to force concessions from the employers by the strike, work is re- sumed and " sabotage " is used to force the employers to concede the demands of the workers. The great progress made in machine production results in an ever increasing army of unemployed. To counteract this the Industrial Workers of the World aims to establish the shorter work day, and to slow up the working pace, thus compelling the employment of more and more workers. To facilitate the work of the organization large initiation fees and dues are prohibited by the I. AV. W. During strikes the works are closely picketed and every effort made to keep ihe employers from getting workers into the shops. All supplies are cut off from strike-bound shops. All shipments are refused or missent, delayed and lost if po.ssible. Strike breakers are also isolated to the full extent of the power of the organization. Interference by the government is resented by open viola- tion of the government's orders, going to jail en masse, causing expense to the tax-payers, wliich is but anotlier name for the employing class. In short, the I. W. W. advocates the use of militant " direct aiction " tactics to the full extent of our power to make good. Extracts fkom "A Letter to AiiEEic.\s Woekjeex " by X. Lemx. (Reprinted from "The Class Struggle" December 1918.] The Americnn working class will not follow the lead of its bourgeoisie.^ It will go with us against the bourgeoisie. The whole history of the American people gives me this confidence, this conviction. I recall with pride the words of one of the best loved leaders of the American proletariat. Eugene V. Debs, who said in the "Appeal to Reason " at the end of ]9t."i, when it was still a socialist paper, in an article entitled " Why Should I Fight?" that he would rather be shot than vote for war credits to support the present criminal and reactionary war. that he knows only one war tliat is sanctified and justified from the standpoint of the proletariat ; the war against the capitalist class, the BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1071 war for the liberation of mankind from wage slavery. I am not surprised that this fearless man was thrown into prison by the American bourgeoisie. Let them brutalize true internationalists, the real representatives of the revolu- tionary proletariat. The greater the bitterness and brutality they sow, the nearer is the day of the victorious proletarian revolution. ******* But the proletariat, even now, in the midst of the horrors of \A-ar, is learn- ing the great truth that all revolutions teach, the truth thfit has been handed down to us by our best teachers, the founders of modern Socialism. From them we have learned that a successful revolution is inconceivable unless it breaks the resistance of the exploiting class. AVhen the workers and the labor- ing peasants took hold of the powers of state, it became our duty to quell the resistance of the exploiting class. AVe are proud that we have done it, that we are doing it. AVe only regret that we did not do it, at the beginning, with sufficient firnmess and decision. ■<- ^ A * .}! ^ 4, Let the corrupt bourgeoisie press trumpet every mistake that is made by oui Revolution out into the world. AVe are not afraid of our mistakes. The beginning of the revolution has not sanctified humanity. It is not to be ex- pected that the working classes who have been exploited and forcibly held down by the clutches of want, of ignorance and degradation for centuries should conduct its revolution without mistakes. The dead body of bourgeoisie society cannot simply be put into a coffin and buried. It rots in our midst, poisons the air we breathe, pollutes our lives, clings to the new, the fresh, the living with a thousand threads and tendrils of old customs, of death and decay. * i; ***** AA'hile the old bourgeoisie democratic constitutions, for instance, proclaimed formal equality and the right of free assemblage, the constitution of the Soviet Republic repudiates the hypocracy of a formal equality of all human beings. AVhen the bourgeoisie republicans overturned feudal thrones, they did not recognize the rules of formal equality of monarchists. Since we here are concerned with the task of overthrowing the bourgeoisie, only fools or traitors will insist on the formal equality of the bourgeoisie. The right of free assemblage is not w-orth an iota to the workman and to the peasant when all better meeting places are in the hands of the bourgeoisie. Our Soviets have taken over all usable buildings in the cities and towns out of the hands of the ricli and have placed them at the disposal of the workmen and peas- ants for meeting and organization purposes. That is how our right of assem- blage looks — for the workers. That is the meaning and content of our Soviet, of our socialist constitution. And for this reason we are all firmly convinced that the Soviet Republic, whatever misfortune may still lie in store for it, is unconquerable. EXTKACTS FROM " THE GLASS STRUGGLE " NoVEMBEE-DeCEMBEE 1917. * ^ * * * * * 9. Shall a Constituent Assembly be called? ***>-*** D. Yes, and as soon as possible. Yet, to be successful and to be really con- voked, one condition is necessary : increase the number and strengthen the power of the Councils of AA'. S. and P. Delegates ; organize and arm the masses. Only thus can the Assembly be assured. 10. Does the state need a police of the conventional type and a standing army? ***** ■: * D. Absolutely unnecessary. Immediately and unconditionally universal arm- ing of the people shall be introduced so that they and the militia and the army shall be an integral whole. Capitalists must pay the workers for their days of service in the militia. ****«=■■* 14. In favor of this war or against it? 1072 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. D. Absolutely opposed to all imperialist wars, to all bourgeois governments which wage them, among them our own Provisional Government; absolutely opposed to " revolutionary defense " in Russia. Until the revolutionary class in Russia shall have taken over the entire authority of the Goverument, our party will consistently support those prole- tarian parties and groups in foreign countries as are already, during the con- tinuance of the war, fighting against their imperialist governments and their bourgeoisies. Particularly, the party will encourage any incipient fraternaliza- tion of masses of soldiers of all the lielligerent countries, at the front, with the object of transforming this vague and lnstincti\e expression of the solidarity of the oppressed into a class-conscious movement, with as much organization as is feasible, for the taking over of all the powers of government in all the belligerent countries by the revolutionary proletariat. ESTKACT FEOM " THE INTERNATIONAL SOCIALIST REVIEW " FOE Jur.Y. 1917. " The Russian working class has shattered Tsarism and secured a democratic republic, the introduction of popular government. And we? Should we con- tinue to bear patiently the old misery, the exploitation, hunger and slaughter — the cause of all our wretchedness ? No ! A thousand times no ! " Leave your worksbop.s and factories. Let work be at a standstill. Man of Labor : Awake and recognize your power. "All wheels stand still when your strong arm' Avills it so. Down with the war. Do\>'n with tlie (<(i^-ernment. Peace. Liberty. Bread." Extracts from " The International Socialist Review " foe August 1917. the new moeality. The new morality .says : Damn interest! Damn rent 1 Damn profits ! r>anm agreements : * * ^ * (= * * The power must be taken out of the polic?nian's club! How? Anyhow ! Why? Because it hurts our class and is therefore immoral. The guns mustn't point our way if they aren't spiked, because they are liablfi to go off and hurt us and that would be innnoral. So we must sjiike the guns or turn them round. Anyhow, and because it hurts our class and is immoral. If we go on strike we umst strike quickly, sudden and certainly. Don't give the boss time to tliink or prepare plans. He might get the better of us and that would l)e bad for us and immoral. Strike when he has a liig order which he nui.st fulfil. It will hurt him more and us less and that is moral. Tie up the industries in town all the industries in all the tnwns, in the whole country, or in the whole world if necessary. The strike will end quicker and we will starve less and that's good for us, and therefore moral. HOW TO win. Don't let the strike eat up your funds. That's bad fur you and immoral. But let it cost the boss a bit. His power consists of the thin.gs he owns and if he owns less his power will be less. His weakness is your strength and is good for ycm — therefore moral. A bolt taken out of a machine may be a big help in a strike, even if the bolt is buried in a hole six inches deep. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1073 Innocence is sometimes a crime! See capitalist courts sentence innocent worljingmen and discharge guilty capitalists. To step out on strilie and starve is foolisli if you can strilce on the job and eat. Striking on the job means, doing such a thing — i. e. anything — that will compel the boss to do what you think is the fair thing. If you win it's good for you and therefore moral, however many little things belonging to the boss disappears, or however little work you might do. Pat from Erin's Isle got a job once to the surprise of his friend. " So you're working Pat? " asked the friend. " Hold yer whist, man " said Pat, " I'm just fooling the boss. Sure ! I've bin carrying the same hod of bricks up and down the ladder all day, and the boss thinks I'm wurrking." Pat may have been working but he knew how to get one on the boss. ******* Don't strike for more than you have a right to demand. You have a right to demand all you have power to enforce. General Strike Or? The profiteers have made millions out of the ships the workers built. Now they refuse these workers a living wage. They have forced thirty-thousand men to go on strike. All the profiteering employers of Seattle are banded together in their Em- ployers' Association. All have a common interest in driving the shipyard workers back to slave conditions and smashing their labor organization. The Metal Trades. The allied bosses want to smash the shipyard workers now so that they can have a free hand to smash the rest of the union men of Seattle later on. These profiteers hate all unionism. They hate the longshoremen, the street car men, the electrical workers, the men of the building trades, the restaurant workers and all others as much as they hate the Metal Trades organization that is conducting this strike. They want to eat labor piece meal. First the shipyard workers, then the others. So they can make this an open shop town and cut wages. Divide and conquer is the motto of the bosses. But we have a better motto. It is together we win ! If sixty thousand union men and women of Seattle go out on a general strike the bosses will cry for mercy. Capital is helpless without labor. The business interests cannot afford a general strike. And we cannot afford to see our ship- yard brothers beaten, because our turn would come next. A million workers on the Pacific Coast are ready to fall in line behind Seattle. We will show them a magnificent example of solidarity. All together in the general strike. Together we win ! By solidarity. Leaflet from " International Workers' Defense League ", Seattle, Wash. soldiers and sailors ! You Workers who were loyal to the Nation and were selected as physically fit to wear the Uniform, Will You Be As Loyal To Yourselves and to the other Workers when you come back into the ranks of Labor and don the overalls? Will you who' offered your bodies and your live^ to put down Political Autoc- racy inEurope, line up with the Workers to put down Industrial Autocracy in America? Will you who were called from the ranks of the workers for a time to make the World safe for Democracy come back into the ranks of Labor and help make the United States safe for Tom Mooney and Billings and safe for all who work in the interest of the toiling masses. Political Democracy is an empty dream unless we have economic security. The Courts have failed to give Justice to Our fighters in the Industrial con- flict. You who have been or are now Soldiers and Sailors, will you be with us when you become Workers again? It took solidarity of the Nations to win the European War, it will take Soli- darity of the Workers to win our Economic Freedom. 85723—19 68 1074 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGA^TDA. When we use our economic strength and go out on strike to secure Justice for our Champions or conditions for ourselves don't take a job until we all go back together. Line Up With Us For Industrial Democracy The One Thing Neces- sary To Make The World Safe For The Workers, A Challenge to the Intelligence of the WoEKEais has been expressed by the industrial barons of America in the incarceration of the workers in the jails, because they have stood up for the interests of the working class. What do you intend to do about it? Other countries have re- leased their political prisoners. " Germany has declared amnesty for all her political prisoners and Liebknecht is free; Austria has done the same for her political prisoners and Adler is no longer in jail. Bulgaria has declared political amnesty, and the man who was given life imprisonment for anti war work Is now the head of the government. Will you see that this, is done here? This country more than any other has boasted of making the world safe for democracy and men and women are languishing in jail for no other reason than expressing their opinions and refusing submission. Remember that the resentment to the yoke is the intelligent expression of thinking people. Are you going to stifle this expression of intelligence by being dumb and inactive, or will you work for your class? " We demand that each soldier and sailor discharged from the service of the Nation for which they offered their lives be given at least $300 to rehabilitate themselves and that all incomes of $5000 and over from whatever source de- rived, be taxed to reimburse the Government International Woekbes' Defense League P. 0. Box 86, Seattle, Wash. BXTBACT FKOM LEAFLET HEADED " StEIKEKS " (SEATTLE, WASH., 1/20/19). You have built the ships for your boss. Why not build them for yourselves? Why not own and control, thru your unions. Your jobs and Your shipyards? Why not dictate .yourselves the number of hours you should work, the condi- tions under which you ■\vork, the pay you should receive for your labor? The wdrkers of Russia did it. AVhy not you? They refused to be starved by the capitalist class and when the capitalists refused to meet their condi- tions they took over themselves the industries and operated and managed them in the interest not of the parasitical capitalists but of the workers. You are the majority and the class conscious workers of America are with you. It is up to you. The world for the ^^■o^kers ! Young Men are you going to refuse to register for military service In a foreign country while the rich men who have brought on this war stay at home and get richer by gambling in food stuffs? AVe would rather die, or be Imprisoned, for the sake of justice, than kill our fellow men in this unjust war. (Signed) Young Men's Anti-Militabist Leagui. EXTEACT FEOM LEAFLET HeADED " MEN OF THE AeMY FaEBWELL ! " You were put in the army, it has been stated, to fight for " democracy and freedom." Don't you think it is time for you to realize the fact that you are not free and that it is up to you to line up with your class and help it to fight and win industrial freedom right here in the United States? BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. 1075 Extract from Leafi,et " American Workers." If you workers do not want this, you must begin right now to organize for a general strike to tie up all industry. Then, if the capitalists persist, if they still refuse to listen to the voice of reason and will not permit the peaceful process of reorganization of industry upon the basis of common ownership and administration, use the clenched fist of Labor to strike them down. Truly Marx was right when he said, " Capitalism came into the world covered with blood and dirt and so will it go out." Workingmeh and workingwomen, organize — organize so as to have the power to stop capitalists reaction. Organize for the Social Revolution ! ! Down with Capitalism — long live the Industrial Commonwealth ! ! ! No Conscription ! Conscription h;is now become a fact in this country. It took England fully 18 months after she engaged in the wnr to impose compulsory military service on her people. It was left for " free " America to pass a conscription bill six weeks iifter she declared war against Germany. What becomes of the ijatriotic boast of America to ha\e entered the Euro- pean war in behalf of the principle of democracy? But that is not all. Every country in Europe has recognized the right of conscientious objectors — of men who refuse to engage in war on the ground that they are opposed to taking life. Yet this democratic country makes no such provision for those who will not commit murder at the behest of the war profiteers. Thus the " land of the free and the home of the brave " is ready to coerce free men into the military yoke. Xo one to whom the fundamental principle of liberty and justice is more than an idle phrase, can help realize that the patriotic clap-trap now shouted by press, pulpit and the authorities, betrays a desperate effort of the ruling class in this country to throw sand in the eyes of the masses and to blind them to the real issue confronting them. That issue Is the Prussianizing of America so as to destroy whatever few liberties the people have achieved through an incessant struggle of many years. Already all labor protective laws have been abrogated, which means thai while husbands, fathers and sons are butchered on the battlefield, the women and children will be exploited in our industrial bastiles to the heat's content of the American patriots for gain and power. Freedom of speech, of press and assembly is about to be thrown upon the dunghead of political guarantees. But crime of all crimes, the flower of the country is to be forced into murder whether or not they believe in war or in the efficacy of savhig democracy in Europe by the destruction of democracy at home. Liberty of conscious is the most fundamental of all human rights, the pivot of al Iprogress. No man may be deprived of it \\'ithout losing every vestige of freedom of thought and action. In these days when every principles and con- ception of democracy and individual liberty is being cast overboard under the . Iirotest of democratizing Germany, it behooves every liberty-loving man and woman to insist on his or her right of individual choice in the ordering of his life and actions. We oppose conscription because we are internationalists, anti-militarists, and opposed to all wars waged by capitalistic governments. We will fight for what we choose to fight for ; we will never fight simply because we are ordered to fight. We believe that the militarization of America is an evil that far outweighs, in its anti-social and anti-lebertarlan effects, any good that may come from America's participation in the war. We will resist conscription by every means in our power, and we will sustain' those who, for similar reasons, refuse to be conscripted. Don't register. Organize meetings. Resist conscription. We consider this campaign of the utmost importance at the present time. Amid hateful, cowardly silence, a powerful voice and an all-embracing love are- necessary to make the living dead shiver. The Workers. Portland, Me., May 1917. 1076 BOLaHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. Feb. 3, 1919 The following is a copy of an Anarchistic poster which recently appeared simultaneously all over New England : Go-Heau : The senil fossils ruling the United States see red ! Smelling their destruction, they have decided to check the storm hy passing the Deportation law affecting all foreign radicals. We, the American Anarchists, do not protest, for it is futile to waste any energy on feeble mided creatures led by His Majesty Phonograph Wilson. Do not think that only foreigners are anarchists, we are a great number right here at home. Deportation will not stop the storm from reaching these shores. The storm is within and very soon will leap and crash and annihilate you in blood and fire. You have shown no pity to us ! We will do likewise. And deport us ! We ivill dynamite iiou ! Either deport us or free all ! The Amerkan A.nakchists. ORGANIZING OUR PKOPAGANUA. [The Industrial Union Bulletin, Seattle District (I. W. Wj November 29, 1918, issue.] What methods can be used to reach an increasing mass of workers and to teach them the meaning of the social revolution and how to bring it about. As to what methods have been tried and proved a success we may say the best has been the concentration of forces upon industry thru group and mass movement.s. * * * To arouse this fighting spirit against capitalism, to get workers to show by their actions they understand that the " employing class and the working class have nothing in common " is of the greatest importance in the class war. Group and mass movements best do this. People in groups or masses feel more their strength, are emboldened to think and act more boldly. Mainly thru the fighting groups to develop mass movements to start with localities und industries and to spread to the entire working class. * * * The first thing is to secure recruits who will do the education and organiza- tion work. As a means to the end of reaching the great mass of workers we suggest union schools to teach speakers, organizers and delegates. These can teach the history of the labor movement and also how to properly transact the busi- ness. * * * Our propaganda needs to be organized to reach every job, every industrial plant, every labor union, the socialists, whole cities and the rural districts. * * * We should take the lead in all struggles of the workers * * * pointing out to them the necessity of organizing themselves to take possession of the land and machinery of production. Fellow workers, unless the writer is very badly mistaken, (he believes from observation of events, from what is passing thru the crowd) that big things are just ahead. Don't you think it is time for all rebels to get Into line and equip our propaganda and throw our enthusiasm and knowledge into the prob- lem of educating and organizing the workers for victory? ******* In a circular letter issued by Frederick A. Blossom, New York City, in which he solicits subscriptitons to " The Labor Defender," an I. W. W. publication, published by the New York Defense Committee of the I. W. W. (of which Louis Ratnofsky is secretary), at #74 St Marks Place, New York, N. Y., he uses the following language: The " shock of peace " is coming. The end of the war will be the beginning of a bitter industrial conflict. * * * The workers, more awake than here- tofore to their rights and their power, will resist to the utmost. The struggle will be fierce and far-reaching. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1077 EtORE, HUNGAKIAN DAILY, NEW YORK CiTY. [Issue November 18, 1918.] The latest events have brought to the working class the best opportunity to take the direction of the fate of the world into its own hands. * * * However, rule and power of systems and classes have never been ended with- out fighting. * * * In middle and Eastern Europe thrones are collapsing, countries fall apart, new formations and groups are brought forth, the revolutionary flag is waving from industrial headquarters of socialist Republics, peoples and countries come into the stream of a healthy, inspiring socialism, world-events occur every min- ute, but the working masses of the A. F. of L. and all those who, with one strong strike of the arm, could sweep away these corrupt and old-fashioned organiza- tions of America, stand where they were standing before the war, still bowing down before hired agents (of capitalism) like meek scabs. In Europe fights and revolutions go on. workers are liberated and new sys- tems are instituted : in America the working class, with Gompers and his henchmen at its head, puts its hand upon the stomach and lays down to beg. Are we really so far away from old Europe that these fattened lackeys and servants of capitalism can even hold back the breeze of revolution. We cannot believe it, as there are thousands of workers moving already and they will start a stronger movement as soon as larger masses can be convinced that there can be no peace between capital and labor, only tightrng, until labor will win, like in the greater parts of Europe. Comrade Beiill and Pengaska '' '' * pointed out to the necessity of the revolutionary endeavors without compromise. ' Comrade Becker spoke about the nearness of the revolution, what forces to be implied and sacrificing work. — They all agreed that the time of action has arrived, that we are on the threshold of the creation of a socialist society. The struggle between the capitalist system and the liberation of the workers is started, we stand before terrible battles, but we must not stop in the fight until all over the world industrial freedom, the freedom of the working class is established, which is not only a liberty satisfied through words, but it is the real liberty of all humanity. [Elore, Hungarian Dally, New York City, issue Nov. 11, 1918 — National Edition.] In the midst of Europe, in the very heart of the blood soaked old world, new lifegiving, magnificent fires are aflame and their glowing light sheds a new, red dawn upon the horizon of the desolate dark countries. The revolution of peace reached the very spot which was the nest of the war. The revolution of peace murmurs upon the soil of Kiel, Hamburg, Berlin, Schleswig-Holstein and upon the shores of tlie Baltic Sea, and the German workers, sailors and soldiers will take care that this revolution realizes with the liberation of the German workers peace also. The earthquake beats al- ready the waves of the sea which will call to action the groping millitms of the workers everywhere where the double-minded autocrats hiding behind fake democracy are still ruling and want to keep their rule longer. Peace ! Mighty interests, gigantic powers, economies and influences are frightened by this short word. Revolutionary peace ! Uixni these words turn with a raging growl the classes anxious for their power and in despair of their very existence. Because for those who wish to extinguish the ghost hunting, flaring flame of the red torchlight by cutting olT the umscuUir arm holding the torch, peace is not yet timely, they do not wish peace yet. There will be peace, revolution irill establish it. THE REQUEST OF AN INTEKKEU HUKGARIA.N. The following letter arrived from Fort Oglethorpe, Ga., to the- Editor of the Elore : "Arriving here from Hot Springs, I inform you that there are several Hun- garians here, among whom there are many of our comrades. These were greatly pleased when I handed them the paper, which we read now in com- mon, and we thank you .jointly for the same." Typical reader ? 1078 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. Leading the Parade. Worker's Councils, composed of Socialists, trade unionists siud industrial unionists have been formed in Butte, Dulutli and many other cities. A Sol- diers' and Workers' Council has been organized by the Metal Trades Section of Seattle unionists. Socialist Party locals are voicing their support of tlie Rus- sian Socialist Soviet Republic by speech and pamphlet. Overflow meetings are being held in all large cities at which demands are made for anmesty for all political prisoners and for withdrawal of troops from Russia. The Ohio Socialist, Official Organ of the Socialist parties of Ohio. Kentuclcy, Virginia, W. Virginia and New Mexlvo. Cleveland, Ohio, January 2n, 1019^ page 3, col. 1. Tlie fo]lo\ving i;^ a translation of a Hungarian Socialist circular recently di.'^tributecl in the United States : Proclamation. To the Ainerwan-Hnngariaii workmen: At the cimax of civilization humanity has been covered with blood-shed through the 44 years war. It seemed a.s If everything would go to pieces that humanity has built up by hard labor. It seemed that the cannon-roars was the mortal music of humanity. In despair we ask whether this is a reality or is it only a feverish dream? Will labor ever be cursed to shed either its sweat or blood for the overlords? Was the internationalism of labor only a dream? Now after many years of pain and suffarlng behold the oppressed rise, one after the other to break the chains and to take t;he world into their posses- sion. The Internationalism of labor has' come back to life with renewed force. The proletariat arose to open the way for the new civilization. What was only a desire yesterday becomes a fact today. From the ocean of blood victoriously arises the red flag of .socialism. The laboring class has started to fulfill its historic mission. SOCIALISM vs. CAPITALISM. The history of mankind represents an unbroken chain of class-war. The patricians and ploretars of Rome, the aristocrats and serfs of feudal times, its guildmasters and apprentices, the capitall.st and the wage-slaves of our own times in one word the great classes of oppressors and the oppressed have always, sometimes openly, and sometimes under cover stood as foes against each other. The class which was the owner of the tools necessary for the production of conmiodities was ever the lord and exploitei- of the producers of commodities. The battle of the exploited was hopeless until they recog- nized the fact that the seizure of the means of production and making them common property will put an end to the division into classes to the battle among the classes; as long as they didn't recognize the fact that they could expect the accomplishment of the work of their liberation only from their own selves. This realization called the socialist movement Into life which is the grandest revolutionary movement of all times. The socialist aim is very simple as a matter of fact. Even capitalist society recognized the principal that every man Is entitled to political right. This principal Is complemented by the socallst movement to the effect that the laborers are entitled to the rights of industry. Just as it is proper that the Government of a people should be a government for the people and by the people so it is proper that the government of shops, factories and mines should be for the laborers and by the laborers. Still more simply ; the socialist movement has for its aim to make workmen free on the scene of its labor ; that the laborer should freely use the tools of his labor and enjoy its full fruit. The capitalist class are afraid of the realization of these alms. As long as the capitalist owns the tools of production he may live In luxury without work- ing and rule without strength. Socialism abolishes these privileges of the capitalists deprives them of their usurped power and stolen fortunes. The capitalists have therefore good cause to tremble before socialism. On the other hand workmen have reason to fight for socialism. And the Inexorable laws of social development will yet force capitalism to dig its own grave. The capitalists regardlessly exploit the workmen to sell the produced com- modities as merchandise. They look for markets for their merchandise. They BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1079 compete with each other for those markets and in the end they start wars. The sufferings caused by the war incite the flame of class struggle with in- creased force and while on one liand capitalistic production becomes ineffective on the other hand the laboring class rises to become the maker of its own future. Thus it is not an accident that while owing to the development of production in all other countries the material conditions of socialism were present in a more ample degree, still the people of the most backward the most undeveloped country, Russia, the most horribly yoked, the most terribly tortured Russian people were the 1st to carry the flag of socialism to victory. SOCIALISTIC SYSTEM IN RUSSIA. The fall of Czarism is historic past by this time. For a moment it seemed as if after the fall of Ozarlsm in Russia, Capitalistic development, and thereby a more modern more pleasing or just as merciless period of class regime and exploitation had begun. But socialistic agitation in Russia was not sterile. Socialistic agitation succeeded in making the millions of Russian laborers and peasants understand that if they had the strength of abolishing one form of class rule they have the strength to abolish all forms of class rule, for all times as well. Today Russia is the model of the purest and most perfect Democracy. In Russia Government reposes fully in the hands of the workers and is controlled by them. The government is one of the industries of the labor- ing classes In one word a government of production. It is the purpose of that government that by aid of human experiences and acquisitions labor should not be the purpose but should become the means of the well being of the people and the promoter of its peace. THE EFFECT OF THE RUSSIAN REVOLUTION IN EUROPE. The efCect of this grand revolutionary occurence extended all over Europe. The revolutionary proletariat derived new strength and confidence from the rising of the Russian working people. And while in Russia the revolution has not even finished its great work as yet the peoples of Austria, Germany and Hungary have already risen, demolished the political institutions of capitalism and it is only a question of time and of very short time at that that they will overthrow capitalism itself. And not only in those countries but all over Europe the fire of revolution bursts into flame. Of revolution which don't put new masters, new e::5ploiters into the place of old ones but make people free. COUNTEE REVOLUTION. The Capitalists of the world dont look inactively upon these powerful efforts of the working class. The counter revolution is already on its way. The ban- ished exploiters are soliciting an alliance with the exploiters that are still unbanished so that they may reacquire their mastery. The capitalists of the world are preparing for one other combat against the socialists of the world. Will the counter revolution be able to get the upper hand? Will it be pos- sible to fetter the hands of those with chains of wage-slavery who have once shed them? Will it be possible to keep them on the arms of those who are preparing to shed them^ — This question will decide the fate of humanity on earth. OUR TASKS. We cant look at this titanic struggle inactively. We must render aid to our fighting brethren. Aid against their being attacked in the back and above all, that we secure their liberation, their freedom, by gaining our own liberation, our own freedom by struggle, — this is a task from which only such a workman may shrink in whom long servitude has killed the man. Hungarian Workmen of America! Understand that for the accomplishment of this great task you must unite and work in unity ! Understand it that you stand before a revolu- tionary task the fulfillment of which you can by no means avoid ! Dont be tjarcjy ! From, the Council of Workmen in every place and on with the work which on the ruins of the Empire will build the realm of freedom. With revolutionary greeting, The Council or N. Y. Workmen. 1080 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. PURPOSE OF THE COUNCIL OF WOBKMEN. Society is constituted of two classes in every country of industrial develop- ment. One is the class of the laborers of the exploited — the worliing class, — the other is the class of those who make them work — of the exploiters — the capi- talistic class. These two classes cannot have interests in common. While the capitalists who are not doing any useful work live in splendor, workmen in general live in the most abject misery. The capitalistic class may do with the workmen as they please because the capitalists own the land and the means necessary for production. In conse- quence of which it is within their power to deny the workmen the opportunity to work at any time or to make them work under such conditions as will deprive them of the fruits of their labor. While such conditions exist in economic life, while one may decide the lot of hundreds of thousands so long " Democracy," " Equality," and " Liberty " are empty notions. The productive system of capitalism will collapse for the reason of the con- tradictions contained in itself. For that time the working class must arm itself with knowledge and organization so that it may fill its historic vocation: That is to take into its own possession the soil and the means of production to use them for the benefit of the commonwealth and thus to lay the foundation of such a society where not even a possibility exists for exploitation, and whose members are truly equal, truly free because they receive the full fruit of their labor and thus are economically independent. The purpose of the council of workmen is to awake the consciousness of this vocation of the workmen and to make them fulfill same by aid of all the means at the disposal of the working class. Zajmy Lidu, Chicago, III. (Reported Dec. 16, 1918.) In issue of December 10, p. 2, c. 3, 4, and 5, the postmaster at Chicago, Illinois, calls attention to the fact that no translation has been filed for an article under heading : " THE GIANT IS GETTING UP THE SPIRITS ARE TREMBLING." [Translation] * That the capitalistic newspapers, representing the interests of their lords and using every wicked means to rob the workingman, is weU known a long time to labor. That many times they have attempted by trickery to incline the workingmen as their friends, is a general truth. That they even have the courage to act as judges of their own crimes by which they wish to punish their own victims, is not as frequent an occurrence as occurred in the past However, sensational cases occur in which the workingman is punished for the crime of the capitalist, the capitalist escaping unpunished. Within the imme- diate past the actions of the capitalists have been so bold as to cause the luke- warm workingman to think. This is attributable to demagogical articles in the capitalistic newspapers. They aroused the solidarity among the organized workingmen and thus aroused a powerful strength which is in the hands of organized labor. The workingman, as an individual realizes he is helpless in the organized labor movement; and, therefore, must unite with other work- ingmen into a solid front in order to control general conditions and the work- ingmen, as a whole, would not permit anything to block their aims in the economical and political field. This is well known to the hired newspaper coolies and are using all of their energy to grasp the last straw to hold themselves above the water, to deceive the working men and to guide and keep them in the old capitalists' channel. They have many reasons to fear. For that reason the demagogical " friendship to the workingmen " is hiding its fear, but so very awkwardly that every one at sight notices it. At the head of all stands the Chicago American, whose whole structure is filled with fear until it plans, begs and makes threats in the same breath. . ^. The whole matter relates to Tom Mooney, who was to hang according to me holy desire of the capitalists, but whose sentence was commuted to an imprison- BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1081 ment for life. And because everything does not move along the desires of the capitalists, great fear is the result. Workingmen, " diligent and patient," American workingmen of the American Federation of Labor, who up to the present time kissed the hand that dealt the strokes, have become rebellious — no one believed their changed attitude a possibility. The case of Mooney caused it all, and for that reason the capital- ists are gnashing their teeth, because they could not send him to the gallows as easily as other workingmen were forced to die. The matter is becoming more serious for the capitalists day by day. A few years ago even a cock would not crow over them, but to-day the rebellious atmosphere and courage of the workingmen has reached the degree that even force can not cope with them. Other means must be devised in order to deceive them. * f ^ --i * w * The capitalists are trembling, for the workingmen, today, after viewing the situation economically and politically, are crying: "You capitalists may go to the devil. Today we want to be masters." In order to check this advance, the prostitutes are using every subterfuge by means of capitalistic newspapers to divide the workingmen. They lie on every side. Lie was never paid as dearly as now ! Today lies are forced into the workingmen from every side. But it is too late. Like a crystal spring it cannot even be' stopped though it may become polluted, it will come to the top clear and with such force that it will crush those who have attempted to stop it. It is still possible for the capitalists to succeed in checking a concerted action on the part of the workingmen by giving Mooney his liberty. But Mooney's life is now subordinated. Now, the question is. what Mooney represents, the aims of the workingmen struggle be- tween the classes, liberation of the workingman, for whom Mooney was to die V. disgraceful death. The ravages of the capitalistic and mendacious coolies cannot stoj) the stream which is moving like an o\*erflowed river. Speavedlnost, Chicago. Ii.t,. (Daily publication). THE SOCIALISTS ARE OPENLY IN ACCORD WITH THE BOLSHEVIKS. [November 18, p. 8, c. 1, 2 and 3, extract translation under headline.] The following resolutions were adopted : 1. Extending a brotherly hand to the revolutionary workingman's classes in Europe ; we endorse the efforts our comrfides under the leadership of Karl Liebknecht and of our comrades in Finland, Austria, Bulgaria, Serbia, Hol- land and other nations to create a government according to the Russian form. 2. We demand that our government immediately recognize the Bussian Social- istic republic of the Soviets. 3. That Wilson's administration may clear itself of the charges of hypocrisy and serious propaganda for the reconstruction of Russia by a mere publication of the remaining documents forwarded to the state department, along with the detrimental " Sisson's documents." 4. A demand to immediately return the American army from Europe except- ing a sufficient number for necessary purposes. 5. We protest against the threatening punij^hment of Tom Mooney as a " just murder based upon perjured testimony." 6. The effect to place the burden of war as a duty upon the American people should be considered as a plan of American plutocracy to saddle the American masses into an uneven financial program of imperialism. 7. We condemn the official and unofficial campaign of terror against the re- striction of the expression of public opinion. 8. We demand that all political persecutions be ended immediately and all court decisions against our leaders of the working class who were forced to- face a trial and imprisoned under the pretense of a necessity of war. 9. We desire that the American Socialistic party be given a representation a! the international peace table and a motion is made that the international social- istic and workingmen's congress be held simultaneously and at the same place as the peace conference. 10. A request is made that socialists In American express their sympathy for their comrades in Europe. 1082 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. [November 23, p. 5, c. 1.] Spravedlnost Is aclvertisiiiR a pamphlet for sale, under the following title- •" Message to the American Workingman, price 5 cents, mall 7 cents." Comrade Krai has written an immortal pamphlet on the " Message to the American Workingman." Today everyone sees the power in the hands of the workingman, if they will only take control of the government into their hands, as was (lone by the workingmen in Russia. And if they will take into consider- ation that a laboring man has more advantages in America to educate himself, it is easily understood what power has the workingman, and that it is only necessary to convince him of his power, strength and necessity. The pamphlet of comrade Krai solves all of the above facts, and may be pur- ■chased in our book store. The following is a translation of a Spanish- Anarchistic Bolshevik pamphlet recently distributed in the United States : To THE WOKKEBS " THE BOSSY OkDEB AND PEACE " The present moments are of great importance for the workers of the World, especially for thosfe who do not agree with the present system of things, that is, the system of so much per cent of debits and credits. After four long years of war, of a war without precedents, where the bellg- erants have abused their subjects, doing the most barbarous things, demanding in a thousand ways the sacrifice of their blood and of their money, abolishing all sentiment and love towards its fellow beings, miscarrying the object of Humanity, placing men face to face like wild animals of different families fighting with the only object of destroying themselves and they do it just to obey the representatives of the Bossy Government and of its ally (Newspa- pers), telling them about their country, the national honor, the flag and about all other objects they employ to cover all of their legal crimes. Notice, workers, men of sentimentality, and see if you can find a flag that has enough cloth to cover the flesh of those who have been left naked in its name. At last, we will have peace, a peace made by the Governments which is tyranny for today, cruelty for tomorrow, supposing that the winners (if there ever was anyone conquered) will continue and try to maintain their institutions with all their tyrannies and social unequality, and hoping for another oppor- tunity to take their flock to another meat market. Fortunately, the German, Russian and other workers have given the call to the world ; they have given an example proving their Incomformity with all that is " Higher up " rebelling against their Governments, who, after exploiting them without pity, had turned them into flesh cutting machines, placing them in front of their brothers from other peoples and continents, always slaves to defend interests that do not belong to them on the contrary belonging to their own oppressors. The Workers must be prepared. We were not prepared to stop this War, but we will be prepared to defend the Revolution that is calling at our doors, *nd if we are not strong enough to defend it, we will not be instruments of war against those people who have already started the fight. Do not forget that the emancipation of the disheired Is not from a determined point, but from Humanity, and there cannot be happiness while in another part of the World there are slaves. Capitalism, with its servants, the Governments, and all those who live from the work of others will attempt to fight all those things that will come from those they have tricked so that they can prevent the call to Rebellion. We all agree on this not having as an obstacle the part of the planet in which Destiny had them born. It will be expected that all Governments not directly affected by the Revolu- tion, will start a campaign against it wherever it may start. For its destruc- tion they will employ all their energies, money and violence and especially their so much talked about " Restoration of Order ". Remember producers that the order they will start to establish is the unconditional obedience to the written law, to private property, and to all religions, and to all that which is obstacle to the big conceptions that we have of disappearing forever the ex- ploitation of men for man. They are trying to sustain with the points of their BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. 1083 bayonets (not with reasons because they have none) all that which for us is a. recollection of privations and gives us the unhappiness of living. When they came to us calling us to help restore order In a place where the Red Flag is \\-aving, that flag which is the sign of those who have been robbed of their right to live, we will answer that all men of studies got to the capi- talists and pi-iests of all kinds, that we have had enough of their infamies. If we give our services to this call, which will come, it would be the most absolute denial to Human liberation. It is not a question of hatred towards men that makes us speak in this lan- guage. We know that they can not act in any other way, because even if they try to conceal their real purpose in their manifestations, we could see that they were trying to make us fight each other against those things for which we had been looking tor and had found. Because we know that there will be no recon- ciliation possible until- such time as a change of system is made, which will abolish completely all privileges of a determined class over another. The Social Revolution is in progress. It is not a war that leaves still more barbarous atrocities, because it did not defend the principles of justice. In war there is nothing but blind obedience towards the strongest or the most cunning through their so-much-talked about pretex of national love. The revolution is something live a depurative applied to the human organism to purify it from all those bonds. They supposed they had converted us into Barbarians to sustain a War like the one we have just seen, which is a blasfemy against civilization and progress well understood. When we address this to the workers, we don't do it with the view that they are the only ones who have a right to be freed. For us, this right belongs to everyone who feels he is a slave, but who produces everything and posse&'ses nothing, and who are the immediate victims of the present system, which we want to destroy and for which you will be called to defend as far as possible. Nature created us all the same, without classifying us into different classes and for this reason we all have the legitimate right to live this life like labor- ing brothers of the same family going to a promising future. He who opposes this end will get something not very sweet, because he is a defender of that which is old, and of death, well, we will give him death, but we will follow our course we are the defenders of life. Let us suppose there were some who divided society into classes, we will be the Workers, the leaders, in destroying It, and in making humanity only one family of producers free from all governments. To win this end, everything is in our will. We will make a heroic effort and we will say to the Lazy " If you want to eat, work." The same way the popular Napoleon said that to win the war he needed three things which were. Money, money and money we will say in order that we can free ourselves from the system which is responsible for all human misery, we, too, need three things, that is Dignity, Solidity and Fraternity. By the group. — (Without name.) The following is a translation of a circular in the Eussian language recently distributed in the United States by the Bolsheviki element : " Comrades ! Workingmen !" Rise, awake and reconsider. You are crushed everywhere and torn to the utmost for the most stupid bagetelle and why? Because you are defenceless. Comrades ! Workingmen ! Do you know that here exists a union of Russian workingmen and also a soviet of workers' deputies who offer their services to you free of charge, as all advice and counsel in all directions you may receive such in the Soviet's business meetings, which takes place once a week every Thursday. Comrades ! You all come. Do not feel backward. Should you have any complaints you may record them every evening in the complaint book, which may be found' on the premises, and all these cmplalnts will be inspected at the business meetings, where the quickest and most resolute measures for assistance will be taken. Do not Forget Comrades " The Soviet of Workers' Deputies." 1084 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. The following is a translation of a Eussian pamphlet recently circulated in the United States by anarchistic groups : " Fbee Fedekation of Fbee Communes — Everyone According to His Ability AND TO Everyone According to His Wants." The fundamental principles of all the social activities and evils are tor in- stance, wars, pauperism, (division of society into the rich and poor), disposition and prostitution, etc. There are two fundamentals upon which the present day society is resting. These fundamentals are; ctecutire and administrative government (i. e. the right to one class of people to rule by force, another cla.si of people), and the right of property by )iiean^ of production. The government, in whatever form it may be ; absolute monarchy or par- liamentary republic, as per example in France, inevitably leads to an oiien or hidden imperialism (the administration of a few individuals, or oligarchy- administration of a group of people or a party ) , the destruction of a free initia- tive of the masses ; the setting up of bureaucracy, which eludes from all the possibility of a nation wide control, intolerance to all the different kinds of autonomy, political, cultural and national ; and what is most important, due to an impossibility of understanding by the Centrum (government) of all the in- terests of all the various districts, to an inevitable clash between the latter witli the former. A large, militaristic, politically centralized government, although a republic, can become and necessarily does become (due to the present day politics) an aggrandizing government, for to this point, it (the government) is inevitably brought by the capitalistic competitor and militaristic jealousy. The governmental form of organization inevitably leads to a manifestation of imperialism (the endeavor to take up a large and influential position) and Imperialism leads to corruption — to a moral decay of the voters and the repre- sentatives and to a state of demagogy of the last mentioned ones. The referendum and the initiative become only palliatives, i. e. means tor a temporary softening of the existing laws. The removal of all these negative sides of the government can be done only by removing the government itself. The government will be substituted by federalism, i. e. a free union of free units. We are endeavoring to change the old organization which from top to bottom rests on force, to a new organization which will not have any other foundations but a general interest of the people, no other principles but a free federation, union of individuals, citizens, into communes (country and town communes), these in turn will federate as districts, countries and national federations. A number of these will form the old Russian Confederation, which will have to become a part of the all-world confederation. Under such an order of things, there will be no place for the bureaucracy, for all the public institutions will be under the wide control of the society. Such an organization will insure the possibility of a free action, to the more progressive federations (unions) which will serve as an example to others for their progressivity. Such an organization will insure the fi'ee development of a nation, or a cul- tural or territorial unit. Such an organization will insure the annihilation of imperialism, or the endeavor to govern other nations or people's, for then no capitalistic organiza- tion can influence the Centrum government, without any control and there will be no government which will comijel the people against their own will to take up arms and go to war. • And for this principle of government, we the Anarchists are fighting; ana for an organization based upon the principle of a free union, we the Federalists are striving. Liberty without economic freedom — such liberties is slavery ; As long as the right of property will exist — as long as the smarter members of society will have a possibility to hold considerable wealth (including real property). This order of things means that the greater part of society— the proletariat- is compelled to sell their labor to the holder's of wealth and thereby, sUU more increase such wealth and also the already existing and horrible pau- perism—which destroys the present society. . ^^ ^ o« It is true that the struggle between capital and labor and the farsignteaness of the capitalists lead to a certain softening of contrasts in the way of the BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1086 introduction of industrial laws, increases of wages, shortening of hours, etc. But the fundamental contradictory conditions are not done away with, but only more or less obliterated. In (ii-iler to f;oi' oneself forever from the division between the rich and the poor and forever to end the terrible spectre of pauperism, exploit and unem- ployment. We have to annihilate the right of property — production — wealth. Only then, when the society without exception will become the master of all wealth, when everyone will take an active part in the production of all that Is necessary for the existence of the present day society, then and only then, the days of division between capital and labor will never come back. A simple review of things will reveal to us, that there is a heavier over- production (supply greater than demand), that there are many things pro- duced that are of no usefulness, and of a detrimental to the people. In the future society everyone will be able to choose his own profession, according to his tastes and alsility, in the production of such articles of neces- sity and pleasure, as the demand will be. These problems are very exhaustively treated by P. A. Kropotkin's in his (Bread and Will) or The Winning of Bread. But, this is only one-half of the economic liberation. Also the old form of compensation is exceedingly unjust. All those who will take part in the pro- duction of things, will not have to figure out exactly how much everyone should be compensated — all will be compensated alike. How to compare tlie relationship of a civil engineer to that of an iron worker. The present system is greatly unjust in it's relationship to women, old men, with people and the children. Are they to be blamed that by nature or cir- cumstances, they became ill or feeble? Upon this fact we have founded an equal right of all people, so that all people may equally and according to their needs, benefit by the production of the society, and also according to this motto : "(Take) from everyone, according to his ability — and "(Give) to everyone according to his needs." COMMUNISM. The realization of our ideal depends upon the understanding of Interests be- tween laboring masses and upon the strength of their revolutionary initiative. In order to defend our right, no matter whether we live under an imperi- alistic system of government, or under a republic form of government, we have to resort to force, terrorism, revolution, etc. At the present time, the laboring people of Russia are In their own, but our task is great, nevertheless, for we have to consider how to materialize our Ideals. We shall adopt force only when force will be adopted against us by the capitalistic class. At the present time, there are no material or other obstacles, except ignorance and fear which could bar us from the materialization of our socialistic program. Our task is to conquer this ignorance and fear, and ignorance and fear can be conquered by a country-wide propaganda of our Ideas, even though in small measures ; a general enlightenment about the relationship existing between the laboring classes, the soldiers on the one hand, and the capital and land owners on the other hand. Also by organizing all of the laboring mass. In order that the powers of the organization might always be relied upon, it must be non-partisan. This non-partisan organization will be the Universal Confederation of Labor, which after Social Revolution will mechanically be- come the all Russian Confederation. The competency of this Universal Confederation of Labor and its component parts (professional unions. Labor or Trade Unions, the soldiers, etc.) will depend upon our endeavor and we shall be obfiged to enlarge or increase it with all our power. To them naturally pass the sovereignty — 1. e. they will not be governed or ruled by anybody. They will have to become the organizers of their respec- tive districts or regions. They will be obliged to take upon themselves, or shoulder, the responsibility of all the control of public institutions, the ex- propriation of capital, its exploitations — i. e. possession of wealth and its dis- organization. 1086 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. And, thus organizing a Universal Confederation of Labor, we. the Syndical- ists present our program. We, the Revolutionists depend upon tlie realization of our idoal by the revo- lutionary outbursts of all the laboring classes. By the above we have also outlined our relationship to the workmen's and Soldier's Councils and their relationship to other Revolutionary parties. We endeavor to unite the workmen and Soldier's Council with real and non- partisan representation of Labor. We shall uphold and support all these various revolutionary manifestations of Labor, which will lead to the complete destruction of all the existing poli- tical and economic relations, and the realization of our .socialistic ideals. Our relation to government and centralism, also concern our relation to the Institutional Congress (Labor Congress). We are not in accord with any such institution for it necessarily destroys all the revolutionary initiative of the masses. REVOLUTION. The program of the Anarchistic Communists of uU the professional or trade unions, of the Universal Confederation of Labor, of the Workmen's Council, and Soldier's or Peasant's Council is to become a revolutionary element, the ele- ment of initiative, such as was adopted by the French Universal Confedera- tion of Labor, such as was adopted to bring about the eight hour working day, the manifestation of the 1st of May, the Universal Strike, and an early Social Revolution. Long Live the Universal Confederation of Labor ! ! ! ! Long Live the Social Revolution ! ! ! ! The following is a list of Russian newspajjers : 1. " Golos Truzenika " (The Voice of the Laborer), pulilished by the (ieiieral Executive Board of the I. W. W., at 1001 West itadiscm St., Chicago. 111. 2. " Rabochiy e Kiestyanin " (The A\'()rkman and Peasant), a weekly news- paper, published by the Soviet of the Russian '\\'orkers Deputies, at 133 E. 15th St., New Y(irk. Editor, A. Brailovsky ; secretary, W. Konstautiudwich ; business manager, S. A. YounshanofC. This is a paper teaching auarchial theories and is largely supported by the Union of Russian Workers Anarchists Communists. 3. " Novy Jlir ' (The New World), published by the Russian Socialist Pub- lishing Society, 113 E. 10th St., New York. A. Stoklitsky, President; JI. Misllg, treasurer; N. Hourwich, secretary. This paper is a bolshevik paper and sup- ported by the Russian Socialists organizations. 4. " Russky Golos" (Russian Voice), a Russian daily newspaper, published at 233 E. 6th St., New York, and is somewhat of a radical paper, of minor importance. 5. " Narodnaya (iazeeta," a weekly Socialist paper and a recognized organ of the Russian Social-Democrats and Social Revolutionists. It is published at 133 Second Ave., New Y'ork. This organ is suijported and maintained by the Men- slieviki. The following is a translation from the Industrialisti, an I. W. AV. daily newspaper published in the Finnish language at 1001 West Madison Avenue, Chicago, 111.; date of issue. December 30, 1918; page 3, columns 1 and 2 : The triumphal march of Bolshevism is paving the way in the larger in- dustrial centers of the East. Particularly the liveliest harbor cities, such as New Y'ork and Boston, the latter to which I shall devote this article, appear to blaze the red trail, at any rate, in the revolutionary propaganda work. Mighty are beginning to develop the mass meetings particularly among the Rus- sians and Irishmen. There is no longer a single Sunday or Holiday that crowds by the thousands do not rush vieing to hear and spread the seed of revolution. On the 15th instant there was a big mass meeting by the Irishmen in wliich there was as speaker one of the best known English speakers, .Tim Larkin. The occasion turned out to be festive and spurtive with fire of revolution, when this " fire-tongue " spoke with his thundering voice to a brimful audience at the Grand Opera House. It appeared that the nationalists for once were struck in the vein, since the great bourgeois newspapers could not refrain from giving an account of Larkin's speech, by means of which the truth only spread BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 108T broader. He did not fear to say America more than )ie did others. He con- cluded his speech in the statement " tl'iat if the Irishmen wish to become free from their enslaver, they can do it in only one way, by organizing together with the international proletariat into the same battlefront. By organizing economically." He particularly emphasizi-'d his last sentence, in which he says, the only- form of unionism is the Industrial Union. In this there would be a little for our yellow brothers to learn, but they dO' not stick their ears in such place where matters of this sort are discussed. It seems as if those brothers not only shun the I. W. W. league, but that they strive to tear themselves loose from even the radical political socialists. Readers of the Industrialisti residing in Boston and vicinity take notice E January 19th will turn out to be a gigantic propaganda occasion for the reason that the local defense committee of the political prisoners has arranged a big mass' meeting for that day in the Grand Opera House, at 724 Washington Street. Speakers will be first-class, such as Scott Nearing, etc. — Therefore come along by the crowds. (Signed) J. B. The following is a translation from the Russian newspaper Golos Truzenika (the Voice of the Laborer), published by the General Executive Board of the I. W. W., at 1001 West Madison Street, Chi- cago, 111., under the caption of the "All-Colonial Congress," issued January 26, 1919: The second Russian AU-Oolonial Congress of the United States and Canada protests in the most determined manner against the breaking in with weapons of the allied armies into revolutionary Russia for the purpose of destroying the revolutionary victories of the Russian people, which is terrible and hateful to them ; \^-e ought and we will battle to the last drop of blood against all enemies who strive to crush the treasure of the world, the great social revolu- tion. We express hope that the American and north European proletariat will all support us in it because a world revolution is not beyond the mountains and also in that (in the world revolution) lays the triumph of the Russian revolution. We protest against such unfounded attacks of nonresponsible leaders of the working class and we say that this Congress is an anarchial bolshevik and we hope that sooner or later all workingmen will realize what this gang of the false leaders of the working class mean and they will try t(5 break away from them and take in their power the management of the workers' affairs, because the freedom of the workingmen is up to the workingmen, himself. Delegate Kh. A Felszabadulas, I. W. W. Weekly, Chicago. [January 25, 1019, Page 2, col. 2. — Editorial.] demockacy of laboe. Internationalism knows only one kind of democracy : that is Industrial Democracy. Industrial Democi-acy was not fought out on the battlefields of Europe and can only be established through the international organization of the workers, of the world. The war of the internationalists is the continuous class-struggle in the mines, factories and smelters. Real democracy will come only when the arbitrary rule of the capitalist, which is nourished by exploitation, economic robbery and new wars, is stopped. democracy of the wokkees. To hell with that so-called democracy. — Forward with the class-struggle in order that misery, crime, anguish, suffering and bloodshed be stopped. All and everything that is in this world is the property of the employers. To hell with that system which creates American Huns, industrial Kaisers, and humiliates women and children. 1088 BOLSHEVIK PBOPAGANDA. [January 25, 1919, Page 3, Col. 4.] THE DUTIES 01' THE WORKING CLASS. [By Jack GaTeel, Translated by F. V,] The war of the capitalists is concluded. The capitalist ambition is satisfied with the enormous fortune the war has brought ; new markets which will facili- tate further accumulation of wealth ; as to profits, more expansion of trade is in view. The merciless fetters of the capitalists wait for new and foreign people to tie them to the machines of profit. But whatever will happen In consequence of the bloody and merciless war which now is in its last hour, the word revo- lution sounds in our ear, shaking like thunder. * * * It is a fact, that the war between the mone.v-magnates (Kings) is ended, but class-struggle has only now started on its w&y. The red tei'ror of revolu- tion breaks its way throughout the entire world and looks into the eyes of the capitalist class with a grinning defiance. In Europe thrones are being crushed, tumbling into the dust; they hold trials over czars; Emperors hurry (tlee) away dragging their dirty hide (body) to some hiding place where they are safe. The shameful flags of slavery are torn down and the flag of revdlution which was hoisted in its place, wnves lively in the fresh air of love of mnnkind. That was the first year in history of the world, when it was Interesting to celebrate Christmas according to the doctrines of Christ. The capitalist doc- trines are overthrown with an astounding rapidity all over Europe in order to make place for the new doctrine : " peace on earth and good will towards men." .Tust for that reason Christian capitalism, with a grimace of contempi, draws its lips together, its heart filled with hatred against the Bolsheviki because they announce that " there will be no peace and brotherhood on earth as long as the army of the workers will be under the yoke of capitalism. Workers of America, the world has changed ! The social system of a ram- shackle State lies on its death-bed and the industrial democracy of a new world knocking at our door. They await the birth of democracy and we can not be quiet about the birth of our democi-acy. We must no longer be indifferent towards the trend of events but, whether we want or not, we have to face them under all circumstances. Every one will be forced to this by the industrial and financial cri.sis in this country, too, within a very short time. Capitalism is driven out of certain parts of Europe and looks in America for a shelter. While you American workers have shed youi' blood and sacrificed your lives over there for freedom and democracy your brothers who remained here were deprived of all that in the meanest manner. The yoke of slavery was wear- ing harder upon the necks of those who remained at home, than at any other time in history. The .ialls and prisons are filled with imtold numbers of your fellow-AAorkers ; in these hell-holes they have to die a slow, merciless death and the.v were put there by the judges and executioners appointed through you. The workers of Russia, Finland, (ierniany, Sweden, Norway. Holland, Prance and England are fighting now in their own countries for such democracy which will be the democracy for all, men, women and children. That is the kind of democracy for which you too have to fight against the industrial kaisers of America ; that means nothing else than to enlighten your fellow-workers in the factories, mines and shops, to organize them into trade unions, so that the workers may dictate the conditions under which they are willing to work and continue production. You must do that if you do not want that the workers of the world point out towards you with their finger, at the time when the crisis will set in and you, who have sacrificed your lives for democracy, will have to stretch out your hand like a beggar for a miserable "job." The capitalists of this country hold their hands tightly around the neck or their slaves to what they became entitled through the opportunities of the war and they will not let loose until they are forced to. Every worker in this country faces a dangerous situation ; those who fought for democracy are al- ready looking for work in the factories all over the country. And then the good news will come out that new labor-saving machines are employed every- where. These events will create the conditions of times when there is no sufficient work, that is low wages, longer working hours, and in its footsteps follow the result, as sickness, crime and prostitution ; then the most doubtful eye will see BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1089 already that they can not find here even a trace of that freedom for which they went to Europe to fight. We only need to look into the capitalist press and we can find that the returned soldiers who are looking for their old job do not get it at all ; they also may find often that their job is held by women ! Workers of America! What do you think to do in this question? Do you perhaps have confidence In the wisdom of your masters and their conscience, that they will settle that question? Or will you perhaps curse the workers who are in the same condition as you? We tell you, every one of you: rally all branches behind one big organiza- tion. Why? Because the employer will not reduce your working hours in order that everybody can get work and he will not give you higher wages because in doing so he would act against his own interests. At present they have only one "thing in their mind, that is how it could be possible to obtain a good, profitable contract which they lost now through the conclusion of the war. Realizing the fact that Europe will, for a long time, not be able to produce more than is absolutely necessary and knowing that America would like to place its goods at low prices in insolvent Europe, the first and main thing is to obtain cheap labor (working power) in order to be able to ship cheap goods. The patriotic tricks will start again to reduce the wages and increase the work- ing hours. Do not rely upon the industrial kaisers of America that they will settle your question. You can not help the case either if you blame the bad labor condi- tions upon the cursed immigrants. It would not help any if, out of mere selfish- ness, you would care only for yourself. All these things do not change the facts which are already upon the threshold. It would have no influence upon labor scarcity, either. It would not alleviate misery either, because as long as there will be thousands and thousands looking for work, the masters of industries will take advantage of the situation and exploit the workers more and more and the more there will be looking for work the more bitter will be the fate the workers will have to face. You have to create a connection with the unemployed and the unemployed shall act with those who work who are employed. In such action only will there be any power and that will be the only remedy. That is the way you have to act ; the eyes of the world are directed at you ; because the capitalist beasts are trying to entrench themselves already that the attacks of the workers shall find them prepared. It depends upon you to keep up the traditons of this country; proclaim yourselves the international working-class and enter the fight for yourselves and for those, who are rotting In a hole (cell) of the jail for fighting in the interest of your class ; who were thrown into prison by the autocrats and imperialists of America. Your fight must go on for better con- ditions and at the same time for their freedom ; because as long as you can not free those men you will not be strong enough either to better your conditions or the lot of your wives and your children. You workers, who gave iip everything in this war shall have only that right left, to go back to the servant's position in which the war has found you. Or Is it your only duty to sacrifice your lives in the interest of the greedy, money- hungry capitalistic class? * * * The time of action is here. We have to show the working-class of Europe that we are with them just as they are with us in our common struggles, be- cause that struggle is that of the world's workers against the blood-thirsty capitalist class. In the publication Eabochily e Krestyanian (Workman and Peas- ant) of January 11, 1919, published in New York City, the follow- ing, here translated, appears on page 2 under the caption " From report of the second All-Colonial Congress of the Eussian Work- men's Colonies of the United States and Canada " : Comrade Bianki, who represented at this Congress the Union of Russian Workers and Anarchists stated " By request of the Union of Russian Workers and Anarchists, I find it absolutely necessary to announce that we held our- selves back from voting upon the question of organizing the Soviet Government for the reason that we denounce any form of ruling or government." Where Government begins, there ends revolution — and there where there is a revolution, there is no place for any government. But finding that unquestion- 85T23— 19- 1090 BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. ably the Bolshevikl being the greater revolutionary part of the Russian Social- Democratic party, which follows the road towards a social revolution, we sup- port them in their battle with a counter-revolution. The Bolshevilsi who strive for communism find It unavoidable to wrest the government ruling and we find it possible to reach a non-government communism only through a social revolution. Translation froji Guekea Di Classe. an Italian I. W. ^\'. Paper, Published AT San Francisco, March, 1916. FIRST OF MAY WOEKINGMEN : ALERT. While in the old world the villanous war, the war of kings and of the. mili- tary provldere, the war of the two strongest Imperialisms, the English and the German, who are contending the step to better impose their brutal strength, the war, that for two years is being presented to us as democratic war when instead it is imperialistic ; of freedom, when it is suicide for whoever does not bow its forehead in the presence of the majesty of the military regime : According to all the sold and the renegades it is a war of civilization (as though there could be a "civil war") when it is not, as always, the exaltation of barbarism, of plunder, of brigantage, of the assassin, while in the old world I say, the war is sowing ruin, desolation, mourning, misery and death' in fright- ful numbers ; and while here in the new world the imperialism is getting gigantic (giving the lie to the lying phrases that the European war will be the last war because it will kill militarism) and under the usual lying cloak of honor, of the national defence attempting to walk on the same road as that of Europe, we have yet the courage, oh ! workingmen, to call you on this May 1st of death ; to life. Workingmen : Alert ! This is our cry of revolutionists, of combatants, alert, we cry it strongly today before we are stopped ; rifle in hand, to be able to cry later — alert oh ! proletariat. On this first of May sacred to human hopes, of all the overtired human beings, we would want that whoever is weighed under the yoke of the tripel slavery, economical, political and religious, to follow with action our desperate cry. We would want that the proletariat, our brothers, to awake from the lethargy in which they live, to despoil themselves of their prejudices of which they are Imbutted and run to us regenerated with the saintly intention to fight at our side the most hardest battles for liberty and justice. Would want that this May 1st would be red as it was dreamed by the first internationalists, would want to be able to adopt the sword instead of the pen, would want to have arrived on this day to be able to avenge with our blood all our martyrs, those who before us were victims of the infamous actual regime. We would want, oh proletariats to be able to raise the red flag on all the bourgeois ramports and be able to say, at completed fact, " the revolution that was has transformed the world." Workingmen, Alert ; because all this Is not yet but a rea,lizable dream but the day that: "Other druse and humble coherts, ready for battle, will come from the furrows and from the hovels to justice make." Come then, nn this day of Jlay let it awaken in us the sleeping energies, let it renew the most generous enthusiasm. Nothing is dead of that that was and it is for us our patrimonial ideal. All Is alive around us. Not before, not now, that the workingmen are killing for a cause not theirs, not after, when the interests of *he bourgeois in struggle will force the false peace that will generate more hate, other wars; nothing for us is, or will be dead. We will yet be the slaves, the derised, the exhausted. The cross and the sword, increased in strength and audacity, will strike on us to impose as yes- terday, as today all sorts of infamy. Know how to gather the challance, oh proletariat. Never better moment was there for us to prepare us for our war " war of classes ' to overthrow that is, thrones and altars. Let then begin our prepara- tions in the dally struggles against the common enemy. BOLSHEVIK PROPAGANDA. 1091 To learn how to hate, hate, always. Hate " God " In whose name our blood is drained, hate the priest, the ;;nnwing cancer of humanity, hate the " State " as the first great thief amongst thieves, hate the capitalism that is the father of the State. Hate, hate always — Hate for the enemy of our cause, the bourgeois .Tournalist, the disguised democrat. Hate for the politician who sells himself to the first offered — hate for all our false friends. In the hate of all the opponents of our cause which is of lilierty, of Justice, of love and common brotherhood, is found on this first of Ma.\- of death, the strength to resurrect the life. Life that has to serve us until the day that tight in strong embrace, we will ask on the barricades, together with the " poet " " No more bread, but blood blood one hour only of .Joyous revenge." \\'(irkingmen alert — May. our May of struggle and not of feast, of battle and not of vain bacchanals, it calls you to harvest. Workiiigmen. Alert, He who is not with us is against us. IjTJIOI Pakenti. Thk Latin Branch, I. W. W. WOKKINGMEN ! The present modest sheet that we hurl in your midst, because reading it you can think, act, is fruit of our will, of our ardent revolutionary faith that inspires us, it spurs us, it conquers us. We have called it "War of classes" because this is its mission, to make it so all workingmen understand that they must prepare for their war that they do not yet know how to fight. The European slaughter and all the wars past and future wanted or sanc- tioned by dynasties, blessed always by capitalism and by priests, that in the war they know their interests, there was not and there never will he wars of people uniting for their total emancipation. PKOLETAKIAT ! Truth so scalding will never be told to you by the Bourgeois sheets, written by all the delinquents in gentlemen's garb. They seek and know how to find ail sorts of deceptions to make of you the servants of the Bourgeois class and priesthood. " War of classes " let it be the cry of all the oppressed, " war of classes " resound in all the hovels of the proletariat, in all the offices, in the mines, on the transatlantics, in the agricultural camps, in all places that gives and pro- duces riches for others. But more then the cry, that sometimes is innocuous, it is to prepare for " our war." All the days the workin.gmen must adept themselves for the " war of classes " in the struggle that is fought between capital and labor by means of strilves, boycottage, and sabbotage well applied. The " War of Classes " it is to be pre- pared by the elevation that all laborers have to make through their own intellect, reflecting, studying, changing so. On this 1st of Ma>' of workingmetfs blood each slave of salary face then the nicest healthy bath for himself and for the common cause. The consciences be renovated, our souls be sharpened to the faith in ourselves, our strength be organized for the defence of today and for tomorrow's assault upon the Bour- geois world. The cowards remain asi