2I5G ALBERT R. MANN LIBRARY New York State Colleges OF Agriculture and Home Economics AT Cornell University Date Due / / > / i / f I /■ Library Bureau Cat. No. 1137 r Cornell university Library HD2156.A3 The original of this book is in the Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924013843002 1920. (second session.) NEW SOUTH WALES MINUTES OF THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE CONDITIONS AND PROSPECTS OP THE AGEICULTUEAL INDUSTRY AND METHODS OE IMP^OYING THE SAME, TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKKN SINCE THK FOURTH INTERIM REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE WAS TABLED. ORDERED BY THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL TO BE PRINTED, 22 December, 1920. SYDNEY : WILLIAM APPLEGATR GULLICK, GOVERNMEN'J' I'RINTEK. 1921. t 6326 olio— a [6s.] f/0 ^3 352689' Ill TABLE OF CONTENTS. PAGE. Extracts from the Minutes of the Froceedinga of the Legislative Council iv to vi Minutes of Proceedings of the Committee .„ vii to xvii WITNESSES. PAGE. JamcsNangle, F.K.A.S., President of the Royal Society and Superintendent of Technical Education 152 Francois Ray, Bacteriologist 161 James Robert Fulton, retired farmer and grazier 168 Horace Alexander Smith, Government Statistician (re-called) 172 George Bloomfield Waller, grazier, of Wallarobba 173 Augustus John Christian Vogelc, dairy-farmer, Martin's Creek 175 Patrick McDonnell, farmer, of Woodville 177 Edward Joseph Dann, Secretary, Newcastle A. and H. Association 178 William Malcolm McMuUen, farmer, of Phoenix Park 179 Henry Alexander Carlisle Noble, dairy-farmer, of West Maitland 180 Michael Scobie, orchardist and apiarist, of West Maitland 181 Thomas Henry Pearse, dairy-farmer, of Hinton 182 John Thomas Mudd, dairy-farmer, of Oakhampton 18,3 Daniel Ferry, dairy-farmer, of Woodville 184 Angus McGregor, farmer, of Bolwarra 185 William Eames Kirkness, orchardist, of Gosford 185 Edwin Bowe, orchardist, of Cardiff 187 Alfred Barrett, fruit-grower, of Cardiff 188 John Cockburn, orchardist, of Cardiff 190 Elias Bowden, farmer, of West Maitland 191 William John Graham, farmer, of Woodville 192 John Lavis, dairy farmer, of Hinton 192 Audrey Harold Wilkinson, wine-grower, of Pokolbin 194 Herbert Gavin Ralston, dairy-farmer, of Hinton 196 William Mclntyre Porter, farmer, of East Maitland 197 Alypheus Vercoe, farmer, of West Maitland 198 William Smith, dairy farmer, of Paterson 199 Warren Heugh Scobie, fruit-grower, of West Maitland , 199 Charles Frederick Garnsey, farmer, of Aberdeen 200 Walter James Saunders, Town Clerk, of West Maitland 202 Thomas Ernest Pearce, journalist, of West Maitland , 203 E. H. Fountain, Secretary, Hunter River A. and H. Association 205 Frederick William Hain, auctioneer, of West Maitland 206 Albert Alexander Watson, Acting Director of Soldiers' Settlements 208 Clive Charles Crane, organising inspector. Agricultural Bureaux, Department of Agriculture 209 Nurse Agnes Weir, relieving nurse. Bush Nursing Association , 211 Henry Edward Laffer, viticultural expert, Penfold's Wines, Ltd 213 Dr. Harvey Sutton, Principal Medical Officer, Education Department 218 Horace Alexander Smith, Government Statistician (re-called) 221 Albert Alexander Watson, Acting Director of Soldiers' Settlements (re-called) 222 Henry Montague Somer, Secretary, Royal Agricultural Society 222 Max Henry, M.R.C.V.S., B.V.Sc, Senior Government Veterinary Officer 225 Allan Hammill Uther, Examiner of Titles, Lands Titles Office 231 Leonard Thomson Maclnnes, dairy expert, Department of Agriculture 232 Dr. John Smith Purdy, medical officer of health, combined metropolitan sanitary districts 246 Percy George Gilder, agricultural editor, Sydney Morning Herald 250 The Revd. Dr. Edward Francis Pigot, of Riverview Observatory 254 James Smith, Secretary, Stoney Point Agricultural Bureau, Leeton 258 IV 1920. (second session.) EXTEACTS FROM THE MI.NUTES QI THE PROCEEDINGS 03? THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. MiKUTEs No. 8. Thdesday, 2^3 Septekbee, 1920. Entry 8. 8. CosBiTioNS) Pro8p«ct.s, AND Metho-ds OP Improviko tbe Agricwltbeaii. IsBBSiay :— 8k Joseph Cawu-thers moved-, puBsaant to- N-otie©)^ — ■ (1.) That a Select Committee of this House be appointed to inquire into and report upon the conditions and prospects of the agricultural industry, and methods of improving the same. (2.) That such Committee consist «^l Mess¥». Kavaaia^ ^H&lswi', Hunt, Home, InnesNoad, Dick, Travers, E,. J. Black, Varley, and the Mover, and with power to sit during any adjournment of the House. Debate ensued, ^^stion put and passftd. ___^ . Minutes No. 13. Wednesday, 13 October, 1928. Entb« 5^ 5. COSJDITIONS AND rROSPECTS DP THE AaRICULTUBAL IWBrSTBt, AND MBTBOB* CW fftPKOVWe SamE:— Sil Joseph Oatriithfe^s, as Chairiuafl, btought up the Interim Report from, anSIai)^ up&H the Table, &iS Miniites of Evidence taken before the Select Commtttee., for whose i3t«l8idBratloiiand*e|>ort this s'jibject was referred on the 23-rd September, 1920 ; .together *ifh an AppeH^t- MiNUT«s No. 16. ThdbsdaY, 21 OertMiiR, 1&20. 8. MOKipN Postponed— Interim Report from tw Selept Committee oif :^'hb CTpupi^ioNs and F;^SPECTS OF THE Aguicultueal Indus'try AND Mbthohs OF isjpROvi.SG TiJB Samb ;— The Notice 0;f Motion in reference to this subiect, standing in the name, of Si^ Joseph. Car rij.thers, oa the Notice Paper of General Business for to-day, postpouedj m motion of Sir Joseph Carrutbers, until Th-nrs(lay next, , Minutes No. 17. Wednesday, 27 October, 1920. 6. CoiiWTlONS AND EbOSBECTS of the AGRICULTURAt INDUSTRY, AND METHODS OF iMFftOVING SamE : Sir Joseph jCa,j*ftthOTS- moved- (fi^ oonsenl) without previous Nolice, That the SelBct GdHimittee j^ppointed by t-hia House on the 23rd Septeanteet, 19^0^ to infjuiee ioto aaid report on the Cfekditioas and prospects of the AfweaWjurftl Indtetryi And siefrhcwls of ioapFCWBig tke Same, be ^en leave to report from time to time-, also to- reperi Miwutes of Evidence, and te visit jdaces and examine witness thereat. <5toestian pst and passed. ... Mjn.UTBS N.o. , 18, . Thursd^jy, 28 October, 1020. 7. Coi^i>^TIONs and Prospects ©f the AsBrcutTUEAB, Industry, and Methods op Impkovin©- IJahe : — ^ Joseph Garruthers moved, • pursuant to Notice, That the Interim Report from the Select ©teimrtteeon fee Conditions anxi Prospects of the Agricultural Industry, and methods of improving the same — ^laid upon the Tacbte of this House, and Ordered to be printed on the 13tb October, 1920, be no« adopted. Question pHt and passed. Minutes No. 20. Thursday, 4 November, 1920; 3. CoKMTIONS AND PkOSPECTS OF THE AgEICULTUEAL INDUSTRY, AP) MeTHODS OF ImPKOVING, SaME : ^r Joseph CarrutherSj as Chgirpian, braught up the Second Interim Report from, and. Wid upon the Table, the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Select Committee, for whose consideration and report this suljject was referred on the 2'4td September, 1920. Ordered to be printed. 7. Conditions AND Prospects of liiE Agricultural Industry and Methods of Improving Same Member' OF the Legislative Assembly as a Witness -.— Sir Joseph Carrutbers moved That the following iVTessage be forwarded to the Legislative Assembly : — Mr. Speaker, — The Legislative Council having appointed a Select Committee to inquire into the Conditions and, Prospects of the Agricultural Industry and Methods of Improviiw the Same^ and that Committee being desirous of examining Captain Frank Augustus Chaffey, a Member of the Legislative Assembly, in reference thereto, requests that the Legislative Assembly will give leave to its said Member to attend and be examined by the said Committee on such day and days as shall be arranged between him and the said Committee. Legislative Goun nl Chamber, Sydney, ith November, 1920. Question put and passed. Minutes Minutes No. 21. Wednesday, 10 November, 1920. 6. Cf^DITIONS AND PbOSPECTS OP THE AGKICULTaRAI, INDUSTRY AND METHODS OF IMPROVING SamE — MiSittSER OP Legislative Assembly as a Witness : — Sir Joseph Oarrathers moved, That thefoHowiag Mossftge be forwarded to the Legislative Assembly : — Mb. SpBiKBB,^^ The Legislsitirve Goaacil hiaivifflg appointed a Select Committee to inquire into the Conditions and Prospects o£ the AgricultoiPal Industry and MethcM^ o£ Improving the Sapie. and that Coatiniktee being ^airous. ol examining Erne ifc Albert Buttenshaw, Esquire, a Member of the iifegi^tive Asseojihly, in refeience thereto, req lests that the Legi^ative Asfa^mbly w^l g^e leave to Its said Mem.bec to attend and be examined bjjf the saii Com;inittee on such daj; and da-js as shall be arranged between him and the said Committee. Legislative Cowicil Chamber, Sydney, \Qth November, 1920. Question put and passed. 8. Messages prom the L^gislativb Asshmblv : — ^Tlie Presidient reported aaid read the following Messages fc^oi ^d Ip^^ti-y© 4-s«Bi»bly : — • fi.) Cofadt'tioBS skBd Psospects of the Agricultural Industry, and Methods (rf improving Same — Mes^bc^ of the Legislative Assembly' as a witoeas :^^ Mr. PresideJjTj — In answer to the Message from the Legislative Couhorl, dated 4t}i November, 1920, requesting leave for Captain Frank Augustus Chaflfey, a Member of the Legislative Assembly, to attend and be examined before a Select Committefi of tbe IJegislative Council on the " Conditions, Prospects, and Methods of Improving the Agricultural Industry," the Assembly acquaints the Council that leav^ b^s h^igiQ. gr^nt^d t<.) its' ^ie^ Meqiber to attend and be examined by the said ^^opMoibtee, if ^^e tbii^fe &t. 1920i k,-^ ' SMaker. Minutes No. 22; — Thursday, 11th November, 192^. Ci^Jjirrdks "and PeOspects op the AoRieutTUB-AL Indbstry Aito Mbth^ds op Improving SiiiE :— ' 8w Joseph Carrutbers rooved> pursuant tb Notice, That tfie second Interim iReport from ztie Select Committee on t^e " Co;iditioris and Prospects of tlie Agricultural Industry and Sfe^ods of Im{)roving tbe Same " — laid upon the Table of this Souse, aiid cn-dered tb be ppilrted on the 4th November, 1920— be now adopted. Debate ensued. Bti pat attid passed. 7. Conditions and Prospects op the Agricultural Industry, and Methods op Improving Same — Member op the Legislative as a Witness; — The President reported and read the following Message from the Legislative Assembly : — Mr. President, — In answer to the Message from the Ijegislative Council, dated 10th November, 1920, requesting leave for Ernest Albert. Buttenshaw, Esquire, a Member of the Legislative Assembly, to attend and be examined before a Select Committee of the Legislative Council, on the "Conditions, Prospects, and Methods of Improving the Agricultural Industry," the Assembly acquaints the Council that leave has been gcanted to its. aaJd M.efliber to attend and be examined by the said Committee, if he think fit. Legislative Assembly Chamber, DANIEL LEVY, Sydney, llth November, 1920. Speaker, Minutes No. 2.3. Wednesday, 17 Novembek, 1920. Conditions and Prospects op the AoRicaLTURAL Industry and Methods op Improving Same: — Sir Joseph Carruthers, as Chairman, brought up the Third Interim Report from, and laid upon the Table, the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Select Committes, for whose consideration and report this subject was referred on the 23rd September, 1920. Ordered to be printed. Minutes No. 24. Thursday, 18 November, 1920. Conditions and Prospects op the Agricultural Industry and Methods of Improving Same — ■ Dealing vhth Rural Credit and Finance : — Sir Joseph Carruthers, as Chairman, brought up the Fourth Interim Report from, aud laid upon the Table, the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Select Committee, with Appendices, for whose consideration and report this subject was referred on the 23rd September, 1920. Ordered to be printed. Minutes IV 1920. (second session.) EXTRACTS ERQM THE MINUTES OE THE PRQCEEDIl^^GS OF THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Mjkdtes No. 8. Thursday, 2^3 Septemhee, 1920. Entry 8. CONDFTIONS, PrOSPBCTS, AND MkTHO^DS OF ImpROVIN& TKE AGBICUKrUBAL ISSUSTKY I-^Sk JoSCph Carruthers moved-, fwfswan-t- to- Notice, — (1.) That a Select Committee of this House be appointed to inquire into and report upon the conditions and prospects of the agricultural ind'jstry, and methods of improving the same. (2 ) That such Committee consist of Mess** Ka,va»a^ SiBel*i»r, Hunt, Home, InnesNoad, Dick^ Travers, R. J. Black, Varley, and the Mover, and with power to sit during any adjournment of the House. Debate ensued. ^festion put and pass^^d. ^____ MiNUXES No. 13. Wednesday, IS Octoter, 1920. Entrx 5, COS01TION8 AND I'ROSPECTS OP THE AORtCULTURAt IlTOUSTRT, AND IfETHOD* OV f*PROVtwe Same:— Sir .JoS^f)1i earruthers, as Chairman, Ijtoughfc up the Interim RepoB* from, antJIai)^ upi^ the Table, iBfi Miiiutes of Evidence ta,keh before the Select Committee,, for whose cOnsWerktioli aad^efort this sjij>iect was referred on the 23"rd September, ia20 ; -together with an Appendix. MiNUTM No. 16. TffUBSDAt, 21 OCT&BftB, l'920i MN Postponed— Interim Kepoht from tbs f^EL^pT CoMMiliifEE 05 tijb UompijioNs and y-ij^PEcis OF the Agricultural Industry and Methods of Improving thb Same :—^Tbe Notice g;£ Motion in reference to this subject, standing in the name of Sic Joseph Carru tilers, ok the Notice Paper of General Business for to-day, postponed^ on motion o£ Sir Joseph Carruthors, until Thursday iiext. Minutes No. 17. Wednesday, 27 October, 19.20. Co*»»tions and. Ekospbcts of the Agricultural IsouaTRY, and Methods of iMBBovufo Same : — Sip Jos^i Caw^fttbefs- moved- {h^ eome*i>l^ without pveviows Notice, That the Setecfc Gommittee jippointed by this Hoase on the 33rd Sepfcetobet, 193©, to iwqoip© into aaid r^onfe on the ©t>kdit'ioH« arad prospects of the AgrioaltiH^.! Indostry, *nd methods of im^jp&YiBg tk» Same, be ^en lea^e to report from time to time; also tcv reporl Mimites of BvideHce, atid to visit ^ces and tfsbtmine witness thereat, ^trestitm put and passed. ... Mj^i.u.t?? N.o, 1,8, Thursday, 28 October, 19S0. CoiffeiTio«a and PBOSi'EeTS ©p the A&RidutTURAL Industry, and Methods of IBpbovw©^ Same : — air Joseph Carruthers moved', pursuant to Notice, That the Ittterim Report from the Select ^ikamiiiee on the Conditions aTiti Prospects of the Agricultural Industry, and methods of inftproving the same-^laid upon the Tabte of this House, and ordered to be printed cm the 13tb October, 1.920, be now adopted. Question pat and pass^ed. Minutes No. 20. Thursday, i NovembJir, 1920; 3. CoKWTioNs and Prospects of the Agricultural Industry, and Methods of Imi^hoyimg, Same : — §ir Joseph Carruthersj as Cbs^irman, brought up the Second Interim Report {roqn, and ^id upon the Table, the Minutes of Evidence taken before the Select Committee, for whose consideration ^d report this subject was referred on the 23rd September, 19'20. Ordered to be printed;. 7. Coi^piTiONS AND Prospects of TiiE Aghicultural Industry and Methods of iiMP^oviNG Same Member" of the LEoisLATivE Assembly as a WTitness :— Sir Joseph Carrutiiera moved, That the following Message be forwarded to the Legislative Assembly : Mr. Speaker, — The Legislative Council having appointed a Select Committee to inquire into the Conditions and Prospects of the Agricultural Industry and Methods of ImproYing the Same, and that Committee being desirous of examining Captain Prank Augustus Chaffey, a Member of the Legislative Assembly, in reference thereto, requests that the Legislative Assembly will give leave to its said Member to attend and be examined by the said Committee on such day and days as shall be arranged between him and the said Committee. Legialalire Coun nl Chamber, Sydney, ilh November, 1920. Question put and passed. Minutes Minutes No. 21. Wednesday, 10 November, 1920. 6. CojrpiTioss ASD Prospects op the Agbic^ltpral lyousTRY and Methods op Improving Same — MfikfiER op LEGisLSTrvE Assembly as a Witness ; — Sir Joseph Oarruthers movec^ Thsit tbefollowmg M^sage be forwarded to the Legislative Assembly : — Mr, Sfeakek, — Tfae L^islative OoHaetl having appointed a, Select Committee to inqaire into the Conditions and Prospects of the Agricultuiral Indvjstry and Method^ of Improving the S%fne, ajid that €)ojoi|ttttee beiiig desirous «§ examining Eime it Albert Buttenshaw, Esquire, a MeraW of the teMsfative Assetobly, in refesBence thereto, req tests that the Legijilative Assembly wiil give leave tolts said Member to attend and be exattiined by the saitl Committee on such day and days as shall be arranged between him and the said Committee, Legislative Council Chamber, Sydney, lOth November, 1920. Question put and passed. 8. Messages prom the LaeistATtVR As8Bm;bly -.—-'SkA President rie^ac bed and read the following Messages fe9i!\ ^ Ipg[8l9,ti.v6 Assembly : — fl.) Cwnditfions auiJ Ppospeets of the Agweultiwai Indiastiy, and Methods of improving Same — Membfer- of tbfc Legi^stetifve Assembly as a wifcnees :^^ Mr. Preside>it, — In answer to the Message from the Legislative Cbuncfl, dateci 4tti November, 1920, requesting leave for Captain Frank Augustus Chaffey, a Member of the LegisFalive Assembly, to attend and be examined before a Select CommittfiB, of the Legislative Council on the " Conditions, Prospects, and Methods of Improving the Agricultural Industry," the Assembly acquaints the Council that leave, ha.s bpen grgjHted t<) its' said Member to #teBd< and be examined by the said CpD^ttee, if bfi bkivk fit^ S^ids^e Jt(i«e«^ Qhm^, bASHBL tcjEVYj &§imy, ^ .^wew&f, 1920^ a.m. ' Sgeaker. Minutes No. 22. — Thursday, 11th November, 192&. Cb^fjOfrroNs "aSd PeosI'ects op the AeRieutTUKAt Iwdbbtr* and Mbtb&ds op lUFiiovEKe Same : — Sis Ji^phCarru.thers ropvedi, pursuant to Notice, That the second Interrm Report from the Select 0ojg^init^e on the " Conditions a.nr.f „,i,!„u a. i of the Committee, tbey took into consider^. ^ ' ^"''' ^^^""^ ^^""^^ *'^^" '^''^ ^^ *»>« Clerk Question, —That the Chairman sign the report and nreaont q.mw t^ fi>o w i j Witness withdrew. Committee deliberated. Committee adjourned till Friday next, at 2.10 p.m. FRIDAY. IX FRIDAY, 15 OCTOBER, 1920. Members Pebsent ; — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. A. E. Hunt, The Hon. S. R. Innea-Noad, The Hon. A. Sinclair, The Hon. R. J. Black. The Press were admitted according to the resolution passed on the 30th September, 1920. Frederick Joseph Sutton {of the firm of Lindtey, Walker, & Co.), called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Edmund Kay Wolstenholme {Lecturer in Fruit Culture, University of Sydney) called in, sworn, and Examined. Witness withdrew. Committee adjourned till Tuesday next, at "2 p.m. TUESDAY, 19 OCTOBER, 1920. Mbmberb Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. J. Travers, The Hon. A. E. Hunt, The Hon. A. Sinclair, The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. W. T. Dick, The Hon. S. R. Innes-Noad, • The Hon. R. J. Black. The Press were admitted in accordance with the resolution passed on 30th September, 1920. Albert Robert Bluett {Secretary of the Local Government Association of New South Wales) called sworn and examined. Witness withdrew. William Herbert IfouJd, {Principal Librarian,) called in, sworn and examined. Witness withdrew. Committee adjourned till Wednesday next, at 2 p.m. WEDNESDAY, 20 OCTOBER, 1920. Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. J. Travers, The Hon. S. R. Innes-Noad, The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. W. T. Dick, The Hon. A. Sinclair, The Hon. R. J. Black. The Press were admitted in accordance with the resolution oi, 30th September, 1920. The Chairman read a letter intimating that Mr. P. Board, Direction of Education, was absent in the country, but that arrangements for the Committee's visit to Hurlstone College would be made on his return to Sydney. Cuthbert Potts, B.A. {Principal of the Queensland Agricultural College) called in, sworn, and 3xamined. Witness withdrew. Frederick Joseph Sutton {of the firm of Lmdley Wcdker & Co.), previously sworn, recalled, and further examined. Witness withdrew. Committee deliberated. Resolved, on motion of Chairman, That a copy of Mr. Ifould's evidence be sent to the Prime Minister and the Postmaster-General with a view to consideration being given to the representations contained therein in regard to a reduction in the postal rates on books sent by the Public Library to farmers. The Committee adjourned till 2 p.m. on Thursday next. THURSDAY, 21 OCTOBER, 1920. Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon, J. Travei-s, ! The Hon. A. Sinclair, The Hon. S, R. Innes-Noad, The Hon. H. E. Home. The Hon. R. J. Black, The Press were admitted in accordance with resolution of 30th September, 1920. The Clerk, by direction of the Chairman, read a letter from the Hon. T. D. Mutch, M.L.A., Minister of Public Instruction, taking exception to a» statement made in evidence by Mr. A; R. Bluett, , and the Chairman's icply thereto. Tiie Committee losolved upon the tfinns of the letters to be addressed to the Prime Minister and the Postmaster-General in regard to tlie question of obtaining a concession in postage rates on books sent by the Public Libraiy to farmers. The Committee deliberated in regard to the witnesses to be called. Herbert Raleigh Palmer {of the firm of Joseph Palmer d: Sons, St-ock and Share Brokers) called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Edward Desire Eman van Weeneii, called in, swom, and examined. Witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned till 2 p.m. on Friday, 22nd October, 1920. • t 6325 -6 """^ FRIDAY, FRIDAY, 22 OCTOBER, 1920. Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carrufchers in the Chair. The Hon. J. Travers, The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. E. J. Black, The Hon. A. Sinclair, The Hon. W. T. t^ick, The Hon. S. R. Innes-Noad. The Press were admitted in accordance with resolution of 30th September, 1920. ,,. . , , The Clerk, by direction of the Chairman, read copies of letters sent to the Prime Minister and Postmaster-General, and also letters from the Premier and the Hon. J. M. Creed, M.L.C. The Committee deliberated as to witnesses proposed to be called. "Walter Wilson Froggatt (Government Entomologist), called in, sworn, ar.d exammeJ. Witness withdrew. The Press, at the vequest of the Chairman, withdrew. The Committee deliberated. The Committee adjourned until Monday, 25th October, 1920, at 2 p.m. HON DAY, 25 OCTOBER, 1920. Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carrulhers in the Chair The Hon. J. Travers, The Hon. A. E. Hunt, Tlie Hon. H. E. Hornc, The Hon. W. T. Dick, The Press were at'mittod in accordance with the resolution of 30th September, 1920 Alexander John Hay, M.H.R., called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned until Wednesday, 27th October, 1920, at 2 p.m. The Hon. S. R. Innoa Noud, The Hon. A. Sinclair, The Hon. E. J. Black. The Hon, A. E. Hunt. WEDNESDAY, 27 OCTOBER, 1920. Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon, S. R. Innes-Noad, The Hon. G. H. G. Varley, The Pres.s were admitted in accordance with the resolution of 30th September, 1920. Charles Carey Lance {President, Sydney Harbour Trust), called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Sydney Thomas Doidge Symons [Chief Inspector of Stock), called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Edward Harris, Executive Member and Secretary Bulk-handling Committer, Department of .Agriculture, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness handed in a pamphlet written by him in reference to Wheat Handling and Grading in America. Witness withdrew. Committee adjourned until Thursday, 28th October, 1920, at 2, p.m. THURSDAY, 28 OCTOBER, 1920. Mkmbers Present : — The Hon. Sir Jo.seph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. R, J. Black, I The Hon, S. R, InnosNood The Hon. H. E. Home, | The Hon. G. H. G Varlev The Hon. A. E. Hunt. ' The Press were admitted in accordance with resolution of 30th September, 1 920. The Committee deliberated. n .'!}''' ,^^^^ Z^^ directed to arrange with Mr^ Board, Director of Education, for the visit of the Committee to Hurlstone Agricultural High School on Tuesday next. Horatio James Aylward (Executive Member, Rural Industries Board), called I'n sworn and examined. ' ' Witness withdrew. The Press, at the request of the Chairman, withdrew while the Committee delibc: cd aid afterwards relurnel. George Armitage Ball (a Bank official), called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned until Friday, 29th October, 19;;0, at 2 p m. FRIDAY, XI FRIDAY, 29 OCTOBER, 1920. Members Prksent: — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. J. Travers, The Hon. A. Sinclair, The Hon. II. J. Black, Walter Wilson Fioggatt (previously sworn), re-called and further examined, Witness withdrew. Committee deliberated in reference to the draft of the Second Interim Report. At the request of the Chairman, the Clerk withdrew while the Committee deliberated further. The Committee adjourned until Tuesday, 2nd November, 1920, at 10- 1 5 a.m. The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. G. H. G. Varley, The Hon. W. T. Dick. TUESDAY, 2 NOVEMBER, 1920. The Committee met informally at Parliament House, at 10'15 a.m., and proceeded on a visit of inspection to the Hurlstone Agricultural High School. The Committee, having completed their inspection, met at 1 -t-o p.m. at the Hurlstone Agricultural High School. Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. S. R. Innes-Noad, The Hon. A. E. Hunt, The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. A. Sinclair, The Hon. R. J. Black. The Press were admitted in accordance with resolution of 30th September, 1920. George Eraser Longmuir, B.A. {Principal of the Hurlstone Agricultural High School), called in, 3worn, and examined. Witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned to Parliament House. The Committee having resumed, — Peter Board, M.A. {Under Secretary and Director of Education), called in, sworn, and examined, Witness withdrew. Committee deliberated. The Clerk, by direction of the Chairman, read correspondence from (a) the Goyernment Statistician, re lard alienation, and (6) the Honorary Secretary of the agricultural section of the Royal Society of New South Wales, forwarding a resolution adopted by his section in reference to the Committee's inquiry. The Committee adjourned until Wednesday, 3rd November, 1920, at 2'15 p.m. WEDNESDAY, 3 NOVEMBER, 19S0. Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. A. E. Hunt, The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. G. H. G. Varley, The Hon. R. J. Black. The Press were admitted in accordance with resolution of 30th September, 1920. Horace Alexander Smith (Government Statistician), previously sworn, recalled, and further examined : — Witness handed in statistics in regard to the progress of Alienation and Conditional Settlement covering the last fifty years. Witness withdrew. The Press, at the request of the Chairman, withdrew. The Committee deliberated. On the motion of the Chairman the Committee adopted the draft of the second interim report. The Committee deliberated further. The Committee adjourued until Thursday, 4th November, 1920, at 2 p.m. The Hon. W. T. Dick, The Hon. G. H. G. Varley. THURSDAY, i NOVEMBER, 1920. Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. 8. R. Innes-Noad, The Hon. A. Sinclair, The Hon. A. E. Hunt, The Hon. H. E. Home, The Press were admitted in accordance with the resolution of 30th September, 1920. George Hulton Smyth King {Chairman, Metrofolitan Meit Industry Board), called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Thomas Valentine Blomfield {Chief Dairy Insfector, Department of Public Health), called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. The Committee deliberated. A The Committee adjourned till Monday, 8th November, 1920, at 2 p.m, MONDAY, xu MONDAY, 8 NOVEMBER, 1920. Membbks Present: — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. 8. R. Innes-Noad The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. A. E. Hunt, The Hon. G. H. G. Varley, The Hon. R. J. Black. The Press were admitted in accordance with the resolution of 30th September, 1920. • By direction of the Chairman the Clerk read a letter from the Postmaater-General on the subject of granting a cojicession in Postal Rates on books sent by the Public Library to farmers. George Washington Walker {Managing Director of the firm of Lmdley Walker & Lo., hram MercJiMits) called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. x, ^ v. Mr. Home moved, That it is desirable that the Hon. W. G. Ashford and E. A. Butfcenshaw, Esquire, Members of the Legislative Assembly, should attend and give evidence. Question put and passed. ■Resolved,— Th&i the Chairman should move in the Legislative Council that a Message be sent to the Legislative Assembly that leave may be granted to their said Members to attend upon the Committee accordingly. ■ Committee adjourned until Tuesday, 9th November, 1920, at 2 p.m. TUESDAY, 9 NOVEMBER, 1920. Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. S. R. Innes-Noad The Hon A. Sinclair, The Hon. H. E. Home, The Presri were admitted in accordance with resolution of 30th September, 1920. John Maitland Paxton {Shipping Age.nt) called in, sworn, and examined. Witness handed in memorandum relating to the carriage < f grain cargoes in ships, and also copy of resolution adopted by a conference of shippers held in Sydney. .■ Witness withdrew. Frederick Joseph Sutton, previously sworn, recalled, and further examined. Witness withdrew. Horace Alexand_er Smitli {Government Statistician) previously sworn, recalled and further examined. Witness withdrew. Hubert Dowson Bell {Manager, Oilchrist, Watt, and Sanderson, Shipping Agents), called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Committee deliberated. An account for typing, totalling £9 Os. 6d., from Miss Edith Joseph, was passed for payment. The Committee adjourned, till Wednesday, lOth November, 1920, at 2'15 p.m. The Hon. A. E. Hunt, The Hon. G. H. G. Varley, The Hon. R. J. Black. WEDNESDAY, 10 NOVEMBER, 1920. Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. 8. R. Innes-Noad, The Hon. H. E. Brown, The Hon. A. Sinclair, The Hon. R. J. Black. The Press were admitted in accordance with the resolution of 30th September, 1920. Charles Austen Hodgson {Chief Traffic Manager, New South Wales Railways), called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. The Clerk, by direction of the Chairman, read a letter from the Secretary of the Parkes Branch of the Farmers and Settlers' Association in regard to Mr. J. Heel, Shire Clerk of Goobang, giving evidence. An account of £3 for hire of motor-car on the occasion of the Committee's visit to Hurlstono Agricultural High School, was passed for payment. Committee deliberated. Resolved, on motion of Mr. R. J. Black, That the President of the Legislative Council be requested to arrange for the provision of a sum of £2.50 to meet the probable expenses of this Committee and that an intimation be also conveyed to him to the effect that it is not anticipated that the total expenditure involved in the Committee's investigations will exceed £500. Committee adjourned until Thursday, 11th November, 1920, at 2 p.m. THURSDAY, 11 NOVEMBER, 1920. Members Present :^ The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. A. Sinclair, | The Hon. W. T. Dick, The Hon. H. E. Home, 1 The Hon. S. R. Innes-Noad The Hon. A. E. Hunt, | The Hon. G. H. G. Varlev ' The Hon. R. J. Black. ■" The Press were admitted in accordance with the resolution of 30th September 1920. Ernest XIU Ernest Albert Buttenshaw (a Member of the Legislative Assembly) called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Committee deliberated. Committee adjourned until Monday, 15th November, 1920, at 3 p.m. MONDAY, 15 NOVEMBER, 1920. Members Peesbnt : — • The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. Tho Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. A. E. Hunt, The Hon. S. R. Innes-Noad, The Hon. G. H. Varley, The Hon. R. J. Black. Committee met and considered draft of Third Interim Report dealing with the question of Bulk- handling of Wheat. Draft Report further amended. Committee adjourned till Tuesday, 16th November, 1920, at 2 p.m. TUESDAY, 16 NOVEMBER, 1920. Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers, in the Chair. The Hon. S. R. Innes-Noad, The Hon. A. Sinclair, The Hon. G. H. Varley, The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. W. T. Dick, The Hon. R. J. Black. , The Committee considered the draft of the Fourth Interim Report dealing with the question of rural credit and finance, in which certain amendments were made. Dr. Mary Booth, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. The Committee, on motion of the Chairman, resolved to visit West Maitland on Monday, 29th November, instant. Committee adjourned till Wednesday, 17th November, 1920, at 2 p.m. WEDNESDAY, 17 NOVEMBER, 1920. Members Pebsent : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers, in the Chair. The Hon. A. E. Hunt, The Hon. W. T. Dick, The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. S. R. Innes-Noad. The Press were admitted, in accordance with the resolution of 30th September, 1920. Captain Frank Augustus Chaifey {a member of the Legislative Assembly), called in, sworn, and examined Witness withdrew. Committee deliberated. On motion of the Chairman, the Committee adopted the draft of the Third Interim Report Committee adjourned till Thursday, 18th November, 1920, at 2 p.m. THURSDAY, 18 NOVEMBER, 1920. Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers, in the Chair. The Hon. A. Sinclair, The Hon. R. J. Black, The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. G. H. Varley. The Committee considered the revised draft of the Fourth Interim Report, which was adopted with certain amendments. The Committee adjourned till Tuesday, 25rd November, 1920, at 2 p.m. TUESDAY, 23 NOVEMBER, 1920. Members Present: — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. S. R. Innes-Noad, I The Hon. A. E. Hunt. The Hon. H. B. Home, \ The Hon. R. J. Black. The press were admitted in accordance with the resolution of 30th September, 1920. James Nangle, F.R.A.S. {Superintendent of Technical Education), called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. The Committee deliberated. The Clerk, by direction of the Chairman, read a letter from the Honorable the Premier with n forcnce to the question of the provision of funds for the service of the Committee. The Committee adjourned till Wednesday, 2ith November, 1920, at 2 p. lu, WEDNESDAY, XIV WEDKESDAT, 24 NOVEMBER, 1920. Membeks Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthors in the Chair. The Hon. S. R. Innps-Noad, I The Hon. A. E. Hunt, The Hon. G. H. Varley, I The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. A. Sinclair. The pres,s wrre .a(]mitte(i in accordance with tlie resolution of .30fc'i Scpte Tiber, 1920. Francois Ray {/iacterioUnjUt), called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned till Thursday, 2.5th November, 1920, at 2 p.m. The Hon. W. T. Dick, The Hon. A. E. Hunt, The Hon. H. E Home. THURSDAY, 25 NOVEMBER, 1920. MeMBKRS PitESKST : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthors in the Chair. Tlie Hon. R. J. Black, The Hon. J. Travers, The Hon. G. H. Varley, The press were admitted in ac ordance with the resolution of 30th September, 1920. James Robert FuUon, retired farmer and grazier, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Horace Alexander Smith (Government Statistician), previou.sly sworn, re-called, and further examined. Witness withdrew. The Committee adjoMrncd until Mond.iy, 29th November, 1920, at 2 p.m., at the Court-house, West Mailland. MONDAY, 29 NOVEMBER, 1920. [The Committee met at the Court-house, West Maitland, at 2 p.m.] Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. G. H. Varley. The Hon. S. R. Innes-Noad, The Hon. A. Sinclair, The Hon. H. E. Home. The Local Press were admitted, in accordance with the resolution of 30th September, 1920. George Bloomfiold Waller, President of the Wallarobba Shire, and a grazier, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdiew. Augustus John Christian Vogele, dairyman and fruitgrower, of Martin's Creek, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Patrick McDonnell, fai-mer and dairyman, of Woodville, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Edward Joseph Dann, Secretary, Newcastle Agricultural and Horticultural Association, calli d in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. William Malcolm McMuUen, farmer, of Phoenix Park, Morpeth, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Henry Alexander Carlisle Noble, dairy-farmer, of Aberglasslyn, West Maitland, called in. sworn and examined. Witness withdrew. Michael Scobie, orchardist and apiarist, of West Maitland, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Thomas Henry Pearse, dairy-farmer, of Hinton, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. John Thomas Mudd, farmer, of Oakhampton, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Daniel Ferry, dairyman, of Woodburn, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Angus McGregor, farmer, of Bolwarra, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned till Tuesday, 30th November, 1920, at 10.15. TUESDAY, 30 NOVEMBER, 1920. [The Committee met in the Court-house, West Maitland, at 10.15 a.m.] Members Present : — . The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. S. R. Innes-Noad, The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. G. H. Varley, The Hon, A, Sinclair The local Press were admitted, Wir XV William Eames Kirkness, orchardist, of Gosford, called in, sworn and examined. Witness withdrew. Edwin Eowe, orchardist, of Cardiff, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Alfred Barrett, fruit-grower, of Cardiff, and Secretary of the Cardiff Agiicultural Bureau, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. John Cockburn, orchardist, of Cardiff, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Blias Bowden, retired farmer, of West Maitland, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. William John Henry Graham, farmer, of Woodville, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. John Lavis, dairy-farmer, of Hinton, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned until 2 p.m. The Committee having resumed, — Audrey Harold Wilkinson, wine-grower, of Pokolbin, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Herbert Gavin Ralston, dairy-farmer, of Hinton, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. William Mclntyre Porter, farmer, of East Maitland, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Albert Vercoe, farmer, of East Maitland, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. William Smith, dairy-farmer, of Paterson, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Warren Hugh Scobie, farmer, of West Maitland, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Charles Frederick Garnsey, farmer, of Aberdeen, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Walter James Saunders, Town Clerk of West Maitland, called in. sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned until Wednesday, 1st December, at 11 a.m. WEDNESDAY, 1 DECEMBER, 1920. [The Committee having inspected the Union Markets, met at the Grand Junction Hotel, West Maitland at 1 1 a.m.] Members Present : — The Hon. Sir J os eph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. G. H. Varley, |- The Hon. S. R. Innes-Noad, The Hon. H. E. Home. The local Press were admitted. Thomas Ernest Pierce, editor of the Maitland Mercury, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. E. H. Fountain, secretary of the Hunter River Agricultural and Horticultural As.sociation, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness handed in statements from Thomas Lantry, junior, farmer, of Hinton ; George Grant, farmer, of West Maitland, and H. S. Robinson, orchardist, of Somersby, via Gosford, who were unable to attend before the Committee, together with a return showing the freights on the carriage of beehives in New South Wales and Victoria in supplementation of the evidence of Mr. Michael Scobie. Witness withdrew. Frederick William Hain, of the firm of Messrs. Swan, Murray and Hain, auctioneers, West Mcaitland, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. The Committee adjourned until Friday, 3rd December, 1920, at 2 p.m., at Parliament House, Sydney, FRIDAY, 3 DECEMBER, 1920. [The Committee met in No. 1 Committee Room, Parliament House, at 2 p.m.] Members Presknt : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. J. Traver,s, The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. G. H. Varley, The Hon. A. E. Hunt, The Hon. R. J. Black, The Hon. S. R. Innes-Noad. The Press were admitted in accordance with the resolution of 30th September, 1920. Albert Alexander Watson, Acting Director of Soldiers' Settlements, Department of Lands, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness handed in a pamphlet entitled, Land for Soldiers. Witness withdrew. Clive XVI Clive Charleg Orane, B.A., OflBcer-in-charge, Agricultural Bureaux, Department of Agriculture, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness handed in a pamphlet descriptive of the work and organisation of the Agricultural Bureau of New South Wales. Witness withdrew. On the motion of the Chairman, it was resolved that a sub-committee consisting of the Honorables H. E. Home and G. H. Varley, be appointed to peruse and take extracts from " Part i of the Report of the Imperial Agricultural "Policy sub-committee appointed in August, 1916, to consider and report on the methods of effecting an increase in the home-grown food supplies, having regard to the need of such increase in the interests of national security " with a view to their inclusion as an Appendix to the next Report of the Committee. Agnes Weir, Relieving Nurse, Bush Nursing Association of New South Wales, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness handed in copy of Ninth Annual Report of the Bush Nursing Association. Witness withdrew. Committee adjourned until Tuesday, 7th December, 1920, at 2 p.m. TUESDAY, 7 DECEMBER, 1920. Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. R. J. Black, The Hon. G. H. Varley, The Hon. S. R. Innes-Noad. The Press were admitted in accordance with Resolution of 30 September, 1920. Henry Edward Laflfer, Viticultural Expert of Penfold's Wines, Limited, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Dr. Harvey Sutton, Principal Medical Officer, Department of Public Instruction, called in, sworn and examined. Witness handed in graphs indicating the heights, weights, and eyesight of school children in Metropolitan and Country Schools. Also map showing points in the country visited by the Travelling Hospital of the Education Department. Witness withdrew. Committee adjourned till Thursday next at 2 p.m. THURSDAY, 9 DECEMBER, 1920. Membkrs Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. W. T. Dick, The Hon. R. J. Black, llie Hon. J. Travers, The Hon. S. R. Innes-Noad, The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. G. H. Varley. The Press were admitted in accordance with resolution of 30th September, 1 920. Horace Alexander Smith, Government Statistician, previously sworn, re-called and furthei pxamined. Witness withdrew, _ Allen Alexander Watson, Acting Director of Soldiers' Settlements, Department of Lands previously sworn, re-called and further examined. Witne.ss withdrew. iv, T, ^''' "^^^'^ ^""""g''* "P *'^'3 Report of the sub committee appointed to make extracts from Part I of the Keport of the Imperial Agricultural Policy sub committee. Report adopleil and ordered to be printefl. Henry Montague Somer, Secretary, Rfjyal Agricultural Society, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Committee- deliberated. Committee ndjoumed till Tuesday, 14th December, 1920, at 2 p.m. TUESDAY, 14 DECEMBER, 1920. Mkmbkrs Pi'.esicnt : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Canutlicrs in the Chair The Hon. W. T. Dick, 1 The Hon. S, R. Innes-Noad, The Hon. R.J. Black, I The Hon. H. E. Home The Hon. G. H, Varley. Press admitted in accordance with resolution of 30th September 1920 examined' ^"'''^' ^'^ ^■^■^-' "" ''•^"' ''""' G-emment Veteri;ary 6fficer, called in, sworn, and Witness withdrew. WUneS'lTJrrer"' ^^""'"""^ "' ''^''"' "^^"''^ ''''''' ^*'=''' '^'''^'^ -' --™. and examincnl. Committee adjourne 1 till Wednesday, 15th December, 1920, at 2 p.m. WEDJFESDAY, xvu WEDNESDAY, 15 DECEMBER, 1920. Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Garrufchers in the chair. The Hon. A. Sinclair, The Hon. R. J. Black, The Hon. G. H. Varley, The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. A. E. Hunt, The Hon. S. U. Innes-Noad. The Hon. J. Travers Leonard Thompson Mclnnes, Dairy Expert, Department of Agriculture, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness handed in copy of his Report on the Dairy Industry, which was read. Witness withdrew. Dr. John Smith Purdy, Medical OflBcer of Health, Combined Metropolitan Sanitary Districts, called in, sworn and examined. Witness handed in a paper by Miss Ida Bloomfield, Health Inspector of the City Council, entitled " Farm Schools — Back to the Land." Witness withdrew. Committee adjourned till Tuesday, 21st December, 1920, at 2-45 p.m. TUESDAY, 21 DECEMBER, 1920. Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers in the Chair. The Hon. H. E. Home, The Hon. S. R. Inne-s-JSToad, The Hon. A. Sinclair, The Hon. G. H. Varley. Press admitted in accordance with Resolution of 30th September, 1920. Percy George Gilder, Agricultural 'EiAiioT, S^jiney Morning Herald, called in, sworn, and examined. Witness withdrew. Committee then considered draft of the Fifth Interim Report of the Committee dealing with health and hygiene in the country. Report, with certain amendments, adopted. Committee adjourned till Wednesday, 22nd December, 1920, at 2 p.m. WEDNESDAY 22 DECEMBER, 1920. Members Present : — The Hon. Sir Joseph Carruthers, in the Chair. The Hon. W. T. Dick, i The Hon. A. Sinclair, The Hon. H. E. Home, ! The Hon. R. J. Black. i:*ress admitted in accordance with resolution of 30th September, 1920. The Rev. Dr. Edward Francis Pigott of Riverview College Observatory, Lane Core Pii^cr. called in, sworn, and examined. The Chairman withdrew, and Mr. Dick was called to the Chair in his absence. Witness withdrew. Mr. Dick withdrew, and Mr. R. J. Black was called to the Chair (pro tern.). James Smith, Secretary, Stoney Point Agricultural Bureau, Lceton, called in, sworn, and fxamincd. Witness withdrew. Committee adjourned. t 6325- 152 TUESDAY, 23 NOVEMBER, 1920. Hon. Sir JOSEPH CARRUTHERS (in the Chair). Hon. H. E. HORNE, Hon. A. E. HUNT, Hon. R. J. BLACK, Hon. S. R. INNES-NOAD. James Nangle, F.R.A.S, President of the Royal Society, Superintendent of Technical Education and Director of Vocational Training, Commonwealth Repatriation Scheme, sworn and exammea . 2571. Chairman.] How long have you been in the Public Service? As a full-time officer, 11 years; but I have been associated with the Technical College as an evening teacher for about 35 years. 2572. At what centres in New South Wales are there technical colleges? There are three altogetber— at Sydney, Newcastle, and Broken Hill. -itt 4- iw •*■! A 2573. You have some branch schools 1 Yes ; they are called trade schools. They are at West Maitlana, Albury, Goulburn, Bathurst, Granville, Balmain, Kogarah, Leichhardt, and North Sydney, liach ot those towns has one. mi, inn 2574. Is instruction in agriculture given at any of those schools ? Only at the Sydney Technical College. 2575. Why is there none at the other colleges or schools 2 I suppose it has become the custom to leave that teaching to the Agriculture Department. . 2576. Are you aware whether the Agriculture Department gives instruction in agriculture at Newcastle, Maitland, Goulburn, or in any of the suburbs ? No. 4.0 2577. Have you made an effort to establish classes for instruction in agriculture in any of those centres ! No, not during my time. Mr. Turner, my predecessor, made some efforts in that directioH, but the results were not satisfactory. 2578. You cannot say from your own knowledge whether they were satisfactory or not ? No j I have prepared my evidence in three parts. The first part refers to the necessity for scientific research. As President of the Royal Society of New South Wales, I can say something about that. The second part of my evidence will be devoted to education, and the third part to the social side of country life. It has become customary to talk of research or scientific investigation as being necessary to_ overcome many of the problems facing those who carry on the primary and secondary industries of this country. It is questionable if the real necessity for carrying out scientific investigation is fully realised. At any rate, it would appear to be so in view of the fact that so little provision is made for it. The value of scientific work is often not immediately apparent. Research results are, indeed, frequently, apparently negative and fruitless, and look like waste of time and money. It can be easily understood that, in the mind of the unthinking and non-understanding portion of the public, a large expenditure on the establish- ment and maintenance of public research laboratories and staffs does not find favour and this aspect is reflected in the indifference of Parliament to necessities of this kind. That is a very serious matter' in a country like this, where there is so much dependence on the Government in all matters affecting both the general and sectional public interest. When, as i.s now the case in this country, the Government is depended upon to take the responsibility of initiating, establishing, and maintaining practically all of the things that are for the public good, there arises a laxity on the part of the individual to help himself. In no direction is this more evident than in matters relating to problems in production and manufacture. It is very rare indeed in this country that private endowments for scientific work are made. It is even rarer to find a number of producers or manufacturers binding together to initiate and carry out investigations leading to improvements in production or processes. In Great Britian and in the United States enormous sums have been given by private citizens to further specific scientific investigations, and it is not at all an uncommon thing to find that corporations of producers or manufacturers in these countries have provided funds for similar work. It is true that private and corporation endowments have, in the countries named, been in many cases later on supplemented with Government funds, or in others have become wholly matters of public responsibility. The point of importance is however, that in the first instance, the necessity for investigation has been met by private or corporation effort and so illustrates the value of an industry being ready to help itself at any rate to some extent. It would, therefore, appear that a great effort should be made to educate those carrying on the industry of the country to make a start to help themselves in the direction of initiating and carrying on, even if only a little, of the scientific work which must be done to enable them to overcome the problems which stand in the way of progress and success. A couple of suggestions as to how self-help in this direction can be attempted by primary producers may be offered. One is to follow the example of the Hawaian planters. The Hawaian Islands are only a small group in the Pacific. The arable portion of those islands is of small extent, and the most has to be made of it. The crops raised are sugar cane and pineapples. The planters, on a co-operative system, maintain a large and complete staff of scientists at work in a well-equipped laboratory, including agriculturalists, botanists, entomologists, chemists, and engineers. All matters of soil analysis, plant breeding, plant diseases, and insect pests are dealt with. 2579. There are about twenty-five first-class scientists on that staff? Yes. The result is that the planters know exactly where they stand in the matter of the best crops to grow, the surest way to get the best possible yield, and are able to combat very successfully disease and insect pests. So successful are the planters in these islands that they get the highest yield of cane per acre of any country in the world, and the quality and yield of the pineapple crop is unrivalled. The other suggestion is to place vividly before the primary producers the necessity for encouraging the provision of funds by private citizens for scientific investigation, particularly in that branch which has come to be known as economic science In that way, those who accumulate great wealth in primary production may be made aware of the necessities of the case, and, indeed, of the responsibilities which rest upon them to do whatever is possible In this way it is possible that having been educated to the proper point of view some of the more wealthy pastoralists or agnculturahsts may make large endowments for specific investigations in matters affecting the welfare of the pastoral and agricultural industries of the State. In my experience there is not a single instance of anybody having given a sum of money to carry on research work in the industries or manufactures of this country. 2580 153 IR)ic««— J. N ingle, 23 November, 1920. 2580. The Colonial Sugar Company have a laboratory in Sydney and another in Fiji ? Yes, but it is wholly connected with their own work. I have not known of any discovery being made as the result of that. Those laboratories are largely used to estimate the probability yield of their crops. 2581. And in testing varieties and in dealing with diseases — I am inclined to think so? That may be so. It must be clear, however, that whilst every endeavour should he made to encourage private and corporate effort, and that even should such be very successful there must always remain in the interests of the primary industries an enormous responsibility on the Government to carry on the work of economic scientific investigation. It has been said that any government gives only what is clamoured for. That probably is not quite true, but even so, Parliamentary action is stimulated muc'.i by pviblic demands, and it would certainly be a good thing if the people of this State were to demand provision of funds on a generous scale for scientific research to aid the development of the Pastoral and Farming industries. It ought not to be difficult to educate the people to make this demand. The objective is an honest one, because it is in the interests of what is incontestably the most important industry in the country, and in favour of the end, viz., scientific research, there are plenty of very forcible arguments and examples. If there were none other the results of the work of Farrer should be sufficient. The work of that illustrious man goes to show what can be done on a scientific basis to develop plants to stand the conditions of our climate, and affords substantial hope that with well directed and supported • scientific effort, crop plants can be developed to give large yields under the peculiar CDnditions of our climate. The weather on which so much depends in Pastoral and Farming pursuits is apparently uncertain and capricious, and there is an . opinion too generally prevalent that our knowledge of it will never very much increase. What is already known of the universe and of our own planet points to the most wonderful law and order in everything. Surely the weather is no exception, so that it ought to be possible to discover what are the laws by which both world and local weather are governed. Owing to the excellent work of the Federal Weather Bureau the weather is fairly well forecasted for short periods ahead, but if the predictions could be made for even one or two weeks ahead what a lot it would mean to the man on the land, and if the law of droughts and good seasons be discovered what incalculable benefit would result. 2582. Do you know that American scientists are now proposing forecasts of two to three months ahead J Yes, I am coming to that later on. For years observatories have been established in England, in the United States, on the Continent, and in India, the work done in which co.nsists wholly of observations, of the changing phenomena in the sun, which is the source of all our meterological phenomena. Tlie Solar Physics Observatories are accumulating data which will some day enable scientific generalisations to be made which will profoundly affect our knowledge of world and local weather. The value of the observation of the daily, nay, hourly-, changes of colossal magnitude which take place in the sun are greatly enhanced if they can be made continually throughout the twenty-four hours of every day. Up to tlie present there are unfortunately a few hours of each day's phenomena remaining unobserved. During those periods when no observations are made important changes in disturbances going on take place of which no record can bo made. The daily hiatus on the record of observations is due to the fact that none are made in Australia. Australia is so situated that it occupies in longitude one of the places where observations have to be made if a full twenty-four hours programme is to be carried out each day. 258.3. Australia is the missing link at present 1 Yes. In spite of repeated efforts to induce the Common- wealth or the State Government to set up and maintain a small Solar Physics Observatory nothing has been done. It is of the utmost importance to understand the causes of weather changes, and the failure of Australia to help in this branch of research is difiicult to understand. The necessity for co-operation by the Commonwealth in this important branch of research, or failing action by the Commonwealth, the establishment of a small Solar Physics Observatory in this State is one of the matters that should be pressed by the committee. Recently, a very important discovery has been made. ' This discovery, based largely on a prior one, that the sun is a variable star, gives ground for hoping that ten-day weather forecasts can be made with an accuracy hitherto undreamed of. 2584. Is not a great deal of such information published in the papers of the Smithsonian Institute? Yes. 2585. Have you copies of if? 1 can get them. 2586. An effort is being made through the American authorities to get the link established in Australia? Yes. To derive any benefit from the discovery, special observatories will have to be placed in certain positions in longtitude round the earth. About four observatories in all will be required. One of the places at which an observatory should be situated is in Australia, and preferably in this State. This is a matter which should engage the attention of those engaged in pastoral and agricultural pursuits with a veiw to providing the necessary help. Many star discoveries up to date lead one to believe that it is quite possible to discover the general laws governing weather, as the sun and very many of tbe stars are variable. Many of them have periods of greater light and greater darkness. The sun is variable like the stars and it is possible that variation of heat and light may affect world weather and local weather. Even should the hopes based on this discovery fail to materialise in the shape of long- distance forecasts, the money spent in making the observations would not be wasted. It has been shown over and over again in scientific work that observations made in the working of Nature, provided they are carefully made and recorded, are never wasted. Some of the raost notable discoveries in the past have been the result of the using of observations made for a different purpose altogether. In addition to the necessity for Solar Research, there should be provided in the Commonwealth greatly increased funds for a thorough study of weather and climate in all the States. This is a Federal responsibiUty but its discharge should be urged by the State. 2587. Are you aware that an eminent private observing astronomer in this State has offered to work in collaboration with the American authorities if privat? funds to the extent of £4,000 are found? Yes, I have some knowledge of that. 2588. That is an offer worth accepting 1 Yes. 2589. For the time being ho wants the thing kepi; secret ? Yes, he is one of the most; notecj scientists in Australia. 2590. t 6325— U 154 iri/n«#— J. Nangle, 23 November, 1920. 2590. He is a very trusbworthj- man and is recognised in the United States as one of the world's men on that subject ? Yes, and he has had experience in one of the observatories to which I have referred. Good work is bsing done by the Federal Weather Bureau, so that my remarks must not be taken in any sense as a censure on the administration. My remarks are intended to convey that all funds necessary to establish as many observation stations as possible, not only in Australia itself, but even outside of it, and the neeessaiy staff" should be supplied. The mapping of the State on a soil analysis basis, fertilisa- tion, plant breeding, stock breeding and improvement, animal and plant diseases, noxious plants, plant, insect, and other posts, are all matters requiring deep and thorough scientific study, which can only be carried on under the direction of experts of the highest type, well supplied with observational and recording staffs, and with tlie necessary laboratory space and apparatus. Those engaged to direct the scientific work, and those who are helping them in the work of observation and records, should be allowed to devote their time to do the work which they, and only they, can do, It would appear to be merely stating the obvious to say that, but it is astonishing to find how little those things obtain in practice. It is very difficult to find a laboratory in any part of the Commonwealth of Australia that one could describe as being large enough, well enough planned, or sufficiently equipped to enable the work being carried on to be done in comfort and without loss of time, and even of health, by those engaged in it. It is ahnost equally rare to find a scientific worker in public and semi-public laboratories whose time for actual scientific work is not seriously interfered with by routine duties, such as teaching in a University or College, or clerical and public calls in a Government Department. 2591. Are there any large and properly equipped laboratories in this country? No. 2592. How many have we in this State. We have one at the University which could be used for Agri- cultural research ? I could not name a good one in this State — one really suitable for the purpose, a,Dd I am acquainted with all that there are. They are all too small. They are not properly equipped. They do not appear to have been built for laboratory purposes. 2593. Do you know Dr. Ray t No, I know of him. 2594. He is one of Pasteur's pnpils ? Yes. 2595. You do not know what sort of a laboratory he has ? No. Is he in the Agricultural Department? 2596 No. He is one man who is free from the Department. His is pi-actically the only privately equipped laboratory in the State? Yes. This condition of things was well recognised by the late John Tebbutt, of Windsor, one of the most famous of Australian scientists, who refused the position of Government Astronomer in this State because, as he stated, if he accepted it he would be able to do little else than deal with routine papers and attend to public calls. It is recognised that professors have to teach and that Government technical experts have to attend to Departmental routine matters, but I contend, that if these men are to develop either the pure or economic side of the science which their college or public Department deals with, they should be supplied with assistance to enable them to get the research worlc through. This State i.-i not doing nearly sufficient research work in the interest of the farming industry, as was clearly shown by Professor Watt in the course of his valuable evidence given before the Committee. His claims for largely increased funds for research at the University School of Agriculture, and in the State Department of Agriculture, should be met. It is merely stating an axiom to say that the success of an industry under normal conditions depends upon the standard of technical knowledge and skill possessed by those engaged in carrying it on. Agri- culture is no exception, indeed it can be held that in this industry the rule specially applies. It is a matter of national importance to have a well-designed system of technical education in all that relates to agriculture in active and eflJcient operation. The system should provide for the vocational training of those who work as farm hands. It should also provide for the training of those who take up land and enter into business as farmers, and, last but not least, it should provide the training of the economic scientists who have, as officers of the Department of Agriculture, to carry on research and direct the industry, and for the training of professors and teachers. I have divided them into three parts. There is the training of the rank and tile, the men who do the work ; of those who are to carry on the business of farmers, and of those who are to direct the business and teach it. As yet, practically nothing has been done in the way of vocationally training farm hands. Attempts have been made by the Department of Technical Education but without much success. The failure has been largely owing to the fact that the men for whoiri the instruction was intended would not attend classes. This neglect to take advantage of the opportunities oflTered has been attributed to various causes, the moat notable of which is that the men have not sufficient interest in their work owing to the low standard of living condition and rates of pay. 259'r. Probably they could not aff^ord to do it. I had the system established at the Hawkesbury Agricultural College and other places, but it meant that the men would have to be paid wa.»=f ^jl of doing these things would be of g,.at benefit. Even instruction in f'm work pro^^^^ There is now m operation at the Central Technical College at Ultimo a coursLf^LruLn for smaS settlers embracing tuition in wood-work, such as the erection and repair of fenpe<. an^rt^T i- i repair of gates and other jobs about timber building and its surroundfngs ^°^ s2 sfason" ^"" '''"" '" '''"' ' ^"'' '^"' ""'"' °* '"° ™°"*^« ^"-*i°-' They are held in the 2600. The difficulty is that (he buali worker is not there? Yes. 2601. JIfr. lhi.nl.\ Can anybody enter for that course? Ypi T nan .v>oi „ ,. , , system can be extended to the country. ' ^ ''^^ "^^^^ ^ suggestion whereby that ^ 2602. 155 WUneu^J. Nangle, 23 NoTeraber, 1920. 2602. Mr. Home.] Those classes afford the city " wacker " who wants to go on the land a chance to learn sqnaething about it 1 They are rather for the country people. 3603. Mr. Hunt.] There are a good many of our sons who, being in Sydney, if they knew of that two months course, would take advantage of it 1 Yes, some operations in smithing such as simple welds, screwing and tapping bolts and nuts, and lessons in soldering and simple sheet metal-work are also i^ipluded. If such a course with the addition of instruction in farm work proper could be extended' to country centres, if well attended by farm hands, much good would result in the raising of the standard of u^pfulnesa of the large army engaged throughout the State. 2604. Chairman. | You have omitted to deal with something that is important — the repairing of farm machinery, including welding and blacksmithing, and the making of bolts, nuts, and screws? Yes, I have charge of the whole vocational training of the returned soJdiers throughout the Commonwealth, I had; 20,000 men to train for vocations. In West Australia— they set up a school for the training of men wJiD were going to take up land. They were trained in the assembling and repair of farm machinery, TJjey were taught how to shoe horses, to make a gate, a door, or a window, and how to repair all kinds of tin and iron utensils. If all men on the land were trained in that work the results would be very beneficial. 2605. Chairman.] It is not desirable to train instructors in the Department of Agriculture in that work ? I think my method is a better one. 2fip6. Is it not essential that the instructor when he is asked to advise on those things should be equipped wi|,h that knowledge ? Yes 2607. As an illustration, a case of machinery arrived on my place and my farm hands did not know how to vork it. We decided at first that we would wait until the Department's Instructor came out, and when he did we found that he knew as much about the machine as the machine knew about him. Afterwards orip of my farm hands, with the aid of the instructor, found out that the main parts of the machine had, been put on the reverse way.' Eventually the machine was put right, but it struck me that it would be of great assistance to farmers if instructors of the Department of Agriculture were trained in a knowledge of that work. It was the man who really knew nothing about the machine who was able to put it right ? Yes. Some timp ago I saw an exhibition of aeroplanes in the Exhibition Building, Melbourne. Sir Boss Smith's plane and other types of aeroplanes were on exhibition, and they showed the mefhods by which the machines were repaired at the front. One exhibit was a motor lorry which had fitted on it a perfect little workshop, including a small lathe, a small drilling machine, a vyce bench, and everything nepessary to repair the engine of an aeroplane. It occurred to me that something of the sort might be- wpll adopted for the purpose of giving instructions in the country. We could fit up a train of say three , iQFries, one to contain a small workshop connected with woodwork, another a workshop to give instruction iri metal work, both sheet metal and black metal, and able to repair farm machinery, and the third one would be so fitted as to enable the man in charge to give instructions in farm work. If such a train were ■ properly equipped, with three men to run it, and it, was sent through the country districts, it could spend a few weeks in one centre and then go on to another, and it would be a great advantage. The lorry would be the centre about which the work would be done. Instruction could be given towards the end of the 4p.y or even during working hours. P608. A similar system is in operation in the United States ? Quite so. It seems to me that is the best way to instruct men on the land in that work. 2609. In the United States they have them equipped on Railways — that are practically travelling schools! Yes. We could be independent with the motor. The training of those who intend to start in business as farmers hivolves attendance for an extended period at an agricultural college such as now exist at various centre.s in this State, and chief of which in size and excellence is the fine institution at Richmond — the Hawkesbury Agricultural College. It is desirable, however, that entrance to such colleges should be preceded by attendance at specially established preparatory agricultural schools, such as that at Hurlstone Park. The curricula of the agricultural colleges, especially that at Richmond, and o^ the School at Hurlstone Park, are well designed, and excellent results have been obtained. The College at Richmond is easily the best in Australia, but, at present, as already pointed out in evidence previously given before the Committee, its continued etSoiencyis likely to be impaired by the want of proper accommodation in almost every branch of the establishment. It would be impossible to overstress the importance of provision for an immediate extension of the accommodation and for the supply of sufficient additional equipment and staff to enable a very much larger number of students to be taken. The stress due to want of suificient and proper accommodation in the way of class-rooms and laboratories and the general poverty of apparatus and appliances for teaching is an outstanding feature of practically every school and college, and even of the University, in this State. The agricultural colleges are certainly no exception to the rule. Tlie fact that all other kind of schools and colleges are no better off is no consolation and should not be allowed to Interfere with an attempt to put them at least in a better position. To keep every boy born in the country on the land would be a good slogan in the interests of the primary industries, and indeed of the State, and to give it at least partial effect as many agricultural schools and colleges as possible should be established in the country. At present, it must be confessed, there are too few altogether. The question of ten arises as to whether this State is really acquitting itself well in the matter of providing funds for education. A good father takes care, even to the extent of stinting in other things, if necessary, to procure a good education for his children. New South Wales could spend enormous sums on education without having; to even stint itself, because it is an exceedingly wealthy State, indeed it is a question if there is outside of Australia a wealthier one. Yet, when all things are considered, the sum of money spent here on education is not very large. We spend on education in New South Wales, about £1 per head of population. On technical education we spend very little. 2610. Chairmcm.] In the United States double that is spent ? Yes. On technical education we spend a little under Is. per head of population. The exact figure for the State is lld.-59 of a penny. We spend on general education, including technical education, about £1 per head of the population. More money could and should be spent on agricultural education, and many more agricultural schools and collenes should exist here. There is a strong suspicion in the minds of many people that the standard of farming; in this State is not all that it should be, and that that is due in no small measure to the paucity of , facilities for giving instruction in agriculture. I propose to draw attention to the dissatisfaction at the rate s 156 Wilnest—J. Kangie, 23 November, 1920. rate of pay and living conditions of workers in agriculture, and to the general want of attractiveness in farm life. It is quite possible that such features may arise out of a faulty system on the 'part oi the farmer, which, in turn, may be due to a want of proper training to enable that efficiency to be arrived at which, whilst enabling a profitable business to be carried on, will allow of reasonable and confortable working conditions being given to those employed. The agricultural colleges are under the direction of the Department of Agriculture, and with a view to avoiding overlapping, very liitle instruction in agriculiuro [proper has been carried on by the Departn.ent of Technical Educaticn._ What has be n a'}tempted has been confined entirely to evening classes. For many years the class in agriculture was tiught by the late Mr. Henry Ford, who held a diploma from a French College of Agricultuie, and who, besides having a wide knowledge of his suliject, was an excellent teacher. 2611. We had one before in Mr. Angus Mackay, a very eminent man 1—Yca. '2612. Is he alive now? — I do not know. 2313. Is Mr. Angus Mackay, of Canada, one of their leading officers, a relative of his?— 1 am not sure. He is a very capable man. The class is now under the direction of Mr. Taylor, a graduate of Hawkesbury College. The enrolment of students rangps as a rule somewhere about 20. The insti notion given is useful to orchardists and small farmers within easy reach of Sydney, and to those who intend going on the land. School teachers also attend the class. The instruction consists of lectures and laboratory work, but occasionally students arc taken to farms and orchards for practical demonstration!. There can be no doubt th.it tlie usefulness of the course would be greatly increased if practical instruction could be regularly given in addition to the lectures and laboratory experiments. With that end in view, it has been proposed to establish a small farm school near Sydney, which students in the evening classes could attend on Saturdays for practical training. There is every reasjn to know that the attempt to add such a valuable part to tli ^ existing course would have the sympathy and help of the Department of Agriculture. One great advantage of adding practical training to the course would be that young men in city occupations desiring to get on the land could prepare themselves whilst still in the city jobs for their farming enterprise, by getting skill in the practical work as well as a knowledge of the underlying principles. There are a'so at the college, classes in entomology, botany, and in the care of animals. The last is a very valuable one inasmuch as it aims at giving that instruction which will enable those having to handle horses and stuck to do so with kindness born of a knowledge of the point of view of the animals, and to render first aid in cases of sickness or hurt. For very many years a school of sheep .and wool instruction has been carried on at the Central Technical College at Ultimo. Until recently it was under the direction of Mr. A. Hawkesworth, to whom is due the credit of its excellence and long continued usefulness. Mr. Hawkesworth retired recently and has been succeeded by Mr. Cowley. 2614. Was not Mr. Hawkesworth retired on account cf his age? Yes. 2615. He was then perfectly fit to go on with his work ? Yes. 2616. When he retired ho was just as capable of givingJnstruotion as at any time of his life? Yes, 2617. He was retired under some hard and fast rule because he was over 60 years of ago? Yes. 2618. If you had been asked to pick out a man could you have chosen a better man ? No. 2619. In no way was his efficiency impaired when l;e retired? That is so. 2620. Wo have now lost (he services of an able instructor? Yes. 2621. He was recognised as the ablest man in Australia at; Lis work? Yea. 2622. He pleaded to bo allowed to continue his work ? Yes. 2623. His pleading was of no avail. That is so. 26 i4. The same thing has happenel in regard to Mr. Potts, the Principal of the Hawkesbury Agricultural College? Yes. It also happened in regard to Mr. Smith, Chemist, and Mr. Baker, Curator of the Technological Museum, who are amongst the first economic scientists of the world. Mr. Smith's discoveries in regard to our_eucalyptus are almost numberles.^. 2625. At the University 1 ha])pened to be under Professor Badham, who was over 70 years of a^e, and I think there was not his \ivmi, equal in the world as an instructor. Under this hard and fast rule he would have had to retire at 60 or thereabouts, yet he was in the prime of his capacity when over 70 ? Yes. In every walk of life you find men in full possession of (heir faculties when they attain that age. Some men are good at 80 years of age. Mr. Henry Dsan", formerly Engineer in-chief for Railway Construction, was retired because of the age limit. 2626. Then the Commonwealth Government took him on as ils consulting engineer? Yes, and he built the Trans-continental railway for the Federal Government. Lord Kelvin and Lord Raleitrh,' who were two of the greatest [ihysicists in the world, were old men when they did most of their best work 2627. Elihu Root is perhaps the ablest man in the United States and he is over 80 Yes The maiority of men get into a grove and perhaps it i. well to be rid of them at 60, but men like Mr. Hawkesworth Mr. Baker, Mr. Smith, Mr. Farrer, and Mr. Deane, whose faculties are quite sound, should be retained in the service. 2628. They arc like good wine that improves with age ? Yes. In addition to the knowhd-e thev acquire there is that ripening experience whi^h is so useful. That type of man does not, as a rule, become senile in the ordinary sense of the word. One old man, 82 years of age, who is fond of microscipical and astronomical work «ho knows the names of every species in three sciences, and whose memory is as good as It possibly could be, vi.sits me at my house every Saturday afternoon. You rarely find younger men with a memory such as he has. He is mentally and physically sound at 8' J J o 2629. iJ. J. mack.] Yon believe that the authorities should have discretion to extend the term of service of certain officers, if they think it is justified or necessary ? Yes. I have cham-P r,f fl-,^ l^«nn^L„„; * Technical Education, and when 1 am satisfied that it is worth the while of the Snt fn if '^ ^ ' services I should be able to say that that man should be kept on an officer's ofo?- ^f^^^ ^™"^ M.'f te^l'.'ii'^al knowledge his experience of the world is so valuable? Yes 2Q31t ha:rman.] 1 here is a distinct shortage of instructors of this type? Yes. The Public Service Board has power to extend an officer's services until he is 65, but beyond that there seem to be no power to keep him. I cannot say that a man is old at 65. "ccmo lo ue no power 2632. People are iust as old as they feel. Sir Henrv PmHipw nf «n .Ta.,™ ^e ., , . Australia?' Yes.'^ Branch classes'are held at variCcorntty cenCs wf C: ra'vS^""^"^" '" The school at Sydney and the classes in the country are atten/edTaX by tL^w^ ^tndC betme wool classers, but mostly the students are sons of farmers stiirliT;,,,^ Ln-i, „ , • ^ li.- "^ " ."" "ecome pf sheep and wool whiol will be useful to the^ aft^Js^'Sron^^^^^^^^ extends 157 Witness— J. Nanglo, 23 Koveiubcr, 1020. extends beyond Australia, antl ths lisb of stuLlonts includes some from South Africa, and even Japan. Unfortunately, space now available for t!ic school at the Central College is not nearly sufficient to accommolate all who wish to become student-!. 2333 Hnv raxny liive you in thj cUisdj? Thit h s'lO-Am i'.i the foil 'jwi ig stabem3-.it: — TECHNICAL EDlJCATfON BRANCH, DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION. PuiMARY InJustiies — Classes and enrolments. Cla 11 9S Gfi 19 1> 7 3t 2-' 12 12 9 10 13 32 14 26 28 12.5 Day 94 Kvcning 29 20 14 f 22 Day \ 29 EvL'nng 9 8 21 23 7 11 31 29 78 -C i'd" to ' 87-5 Sydney Shoop an 1 Wool - >> J iO-S Sydney (oorrcspandoiioo) Armidale liarraba Bathurat Cowra Glen Innes JI ») " " Svdnev Care of Animals 69-2 Sydney (corrc3poiidcnoe) . , ,, .. . 2634. You have insutlicient accommodation ? Yes, at Sydney. C.inssque.itly there is much disappoint- ment and heart-burning when many have to be refused admittance. Funds for Technical Education are so very limited, and everything nowadays iu (he line of building materials is so expensive, that there is little hope of erecting a new building sulficiently spaciou? to meet the demands. Tli-cre is some hope that the difficulty can be ovcrcomp, and indeed in a rather easy and inexpensive way. The large group of buildings formerly used as the gaol at Darlinghurst and now merely used as stores for material, which could be stored in rough sheds in the country, would serve admirably for the purposes of class rooms and workshops for technical education. As a matter of fact, if built for the purpose, the various buildings, as regards their main features, could hardly be better fitted. 2635. I advocated that in a speech I made in the Legislative Council two years ago. I have persistently written to the Minister urging that that should be done 1 Yes. A very large deputation recently waited on the Mini.ster of Public Instruction and asked him to endeavour to get the Government to agree to the whole group being given over for the purpose of a Technical College. The deputation included representa- tives of all industries in the country, even some from the pastoral and agricultural. If those buildings can be obtained, one is to bo allotted to sheep and wool, and will afford ample and suitable space to miet all demands for some lime to come. To my mind, the particular part which the Department of Technical Education should take in the general system of education and agriculture is that of giving the vocational training for farm workers, the continuation anJ extension of the courses in sheep and wool, and also evening and Saturday metropolitan classes in agriculture and allied subjects. 2636. It seems to me that tlie Technical Educational Department can best do vocational training. Farm workers need instru';tion in many trades. We can give them instruction in wood and metal working of various kinds. We understand the training of the tradesmen better than anybody else, and I do not see why the farm worker sho\ild nob be considered as a tradesman. We can carry on the wool work Avell. 2637. You do the instruction in wool better than anybody. The Technical College is recognised as the Institution for training wool workers ? Yes, and we shall be glad to do anything that we can in giving instruction in agriculture, but we should want a farm in addition. 2638. Could not some of that work be done at the Centennial Park, or even in the Botanic Gardens 1 No. It has been suggested, and I agree with it, that ive might work in conjunction with the Hurlstone Agricultural High School. 2639. If farm workers were equipped with a technical knowledge that you could give them, thny would be able to command a few shillings a week more in the country t Yes. I can give them instruction in wood and metal work, and in farm machinery. 2640. You cannot give them instruction in fencing. You have not got room 1 I could manage it. 2641. But for instruction in wire netting, you have not enough space to run out a coil of net ? Yes. The agricultural preparatory schools should remain with the Education Department, and the agricultural colleges with the Department of Agriculture. The Department of Technical Education can, moat certainly, best handle the vocational training course if such be found possible of establishment. 2643. Is it not a weakness of the Department of Agriculture to have no system of inspection of its instructors, to test their skill, such a^ there is in the Public Instruction Department. If we have a poor teacher in charge of a school the inspector finds him out. They go around the schools once a quarter. The District Inspector goes round once a year, and the Chi'ef Inspector once in three years. In that way it is known when a teacher is not up to the mark. In the Agricultural Department there is no method of inspecting the instructors, and it is not known whether they are up to the mark. They are only found out by the complaints of the pupils or their parents ? The two schools at the University directly connected with the primary industries are the Schools of Agriculture and Veterinary Science. Both have been established on sound, lines. The State and the University are fortunate in having as the heads of those schools men of the highest capacity, both as scientists and teachers. The fact remains that both schools are facing great difficulties, largely owing to the fact that the numbfrs of students in them 158 Witness— J. Nangle^ -23 November, 1920. are comparatively small. The scanty atlendance has led many to question the right of even the existence of the schools, in view of the fact that at the University practically all the other departments are over- crowded, and that funds arc not available for relief. I am a member of tie Senate of the University, and I have heard these schools dis-cussed. The other schools are overcrowded, and because there are not many students in one or two of the schools the question has been asked, should they be continued? It is true that these schools should exist, and it is also true, that their importance to the pastoral and agri- cultural industries cannot well be over-estimated. It is upon those schools that those industries will depend for the trained specialists to lead and direct in development, and in overcoming the existing and ever-recurring problems inseparable from primary production. No State with any pretence to being modern in the pastoral or agricultural sense can be said to be safe without having made provision to train the scientific specialists needed to safeguard and develop what is being done or what it is hoped to do. The Government of this State assisted the University to establish those schools, and annually contributes a sum of money (about £6,000) to maintain them, and all because it was recognised that such schools are essential to the general scheme designed to care for and develop the great national resources possessed in the pastoral and farm areas of the country. One thing, however, was overlooked, and that is the making attractive of the professions catered for by those . schools. Up to the present the practice of agriculture or veterinary physic and surgery cannot compete with most other professions in the matter of standing and income. Most of those who graduate in agriculture have, up to the present, at any rate, and may for some time to come, to rely mainly on the Government for positions, and it is a fact that the low salaries paid have acted as a warning to young men not to enter the School of Agriculture. A similar deterrent exists with regard to the Veterinary Course. At present, owing to the absence of any legislation preventing it, anyone can practice as an animal doctor, with the result that the country is overrun with quacks who do much mischief and incidentally prevent qualified men from getting any standing. It does seem stranQ;e that in a country like this with such enormous interests in stock, nothing has been done to regulate the practice of animal physic and surgery, and to provide for only qualified men being employed. As things are at present, it is not at all surprisiiig to find that young men in selecting a career avoid that of the veterinary surgeon. It can be pressed that the country should advocate the placing on the Statutes of the State a law regulating the work and providing for only quaUfied men being allowed to practice. If such were done, there would be no dearth of students in the veterinary school, and the effect of them being turned out as trained specialists would result in stoppage of loss and in the development of stock of every kind in the State. 264.3. Chairman.] The war kept students away. Even had there been no war the same thing would have probably occurred. The income of the doctor is so attractive. Young men are influenced to enter the medical school because of that circumstance. It takes as much time and money to qualify in the veterinary school as in the medical school. 2644. I was at the University forty-five years ago, when there were only about twenty of us there. I have lived to see 3,000 students there. In my time, people did not realise what a university education meant. They do now. Prom 20,000 to 30,000 students have passed through the University in my lifetime At one period there were only five students there. The late Sir Samuel Grifiith was the first graduate of Sydney University. He became Chief Justice of Australia. I was there with the present Chief Justice of this btate ; with Sir Edmund Barton, and with Mr. Richard O'Conor. There was only a handful of us then /xf o w ® °^T^'l^^ students we have had two Premiers, a Chief Justice of Australia, and a Chief Justice ?T T ?•• J7® ^''?n,.^®^ practically the whole of the Puisne Judgeships, including Mr. Justice Pring, Mr Justice Sly, and Mr. Justice Edmonds. If Ihave seen the University extend from twenty to 3,000 students, there are living men who will see the Agricultural School and the Veterinary School with a • Ti^^'atT T'c ,^ """'.^ ".°t '^''P'"'* *''° '^'"'^ ^''""^ ^''y °^ ^^^ ^''^ools. At present there are 500 students m the Medical School, and eighty in the Veterinary School. The interests of this country demand that there should be more students in the Agricultural and Veterinary Schools 2645. Mr. I/orne.] You would not say that we shall require as many veterinai^ surgeons as medical men ! ~ ^'••^^"f J Jo""^ contention is th^t a man should not be allowed to practice as a veterinary surgeon unless he has qualified at the University 1 Yes. cudhikm^ 2647. Mr. Innes-Mad] You do not believe that a veterinarian trained at your college with a life-long expenence is equal to the university-trained man? It is an unsafe principle. I !m an arch tect bf profession. I practiced for twenty-two years in this State. I claim that I am a good archUect but I di5 not have a University course. I served an apprenticeship to the trade. All the same I wS like to see architects complete their training at the University as I did myself I tbi.,k VZZ^ri T * • T interests of the State that all veterinary surgeonLhould qudi^y at the uSersity " ^" 26i8. Cha^rman] Do you find a tendency at the University to underrate the horse doctor as asrainst the ordinary medical man? Yes. As far as I can sratbpr fViov f>,;v.u t-u t j.u t '^ , uoccoi as agamsi standing of the ordinary medical man. ^ ' ^'^'^ ^^'""^ *^^^ *^« ^°''^ '^°°t°'- ^as not the oatl- nl ^- ■^- f f^-^ ^'^''^^^^ ^ ^^' ' ^""^ ^"^ ^^^ '«^tter «* income. ^bOU. Lliairman.\ It may be that the tone of the Universitv i"s rafJiQ„ ..™ • i. i. • • life? No,Iwou^dnotsaythat. I do not think it ^ Sfis t /eew"!' ^.Tf *°- '""^r^'lt^ industries of life at the Univeisity. *^^^'"S ^g*'"«* the training for the 2651. Does it not require some moral courage for a Iwv at the Univor=if„ *■« iu i. i • horse doctor when others say that they are going to be doctors of hZf V° '^^,^^f}^ '^ going ^ be a they might say to the boy who is going in for vgtSnary science ttTtT fy ' ] t "°' ''^'''^ ^°' ^«* do when he is qualified, and that it would be better "f he tor?" . *.v'' ^'}^ """l}^ ™"«^ *°^ ^'"^ *° students in the\chool of agriculture, and ten of them are womZ '^^^'^''^^ ^'^«: .There are twenty-nine school. Literally, hundreds of parents come to meTorTdvle about what tW ^^g^^^y^- .^^e engineering advise them not to go in for the crowded professions A JrTcuUn r^ • ' • ^ . '°"', '^""''^ ' ''^'' "P' ^""^ ^ go in for in the interests of the country. The mrrity of t£^^^ "'"''''^■^ f^\ *^^^ T^P'^ ^^^"l'* and that applies to the returned soldiers, many o^wLm have worked ^h'"^ *° t ^'^\ ^8"culture. soldier had previously been on a farm we prefer to have Smtlldtt;^ ^Xtey "0^^™:? to 159 ■ Witness— J. Nangle, 23 November, 1920. to have anything to do with it. In this country it seems to me that all boys want to take up one erf two professions — they want to be doctors or lawyers, or they want to be electrical tradesmen or carpenters. 2652. Ohairman.] They can then remain in town 1 There is something in that. The statistics prepared by the Government Statistician and submitted to the Committee showing the increase of the urban and the corresponding decrease of the rural population are disrjuieting, but they are surprising when present-day city and country living conditions are compared. The pay of the agricultural worker has been poor, and his hours, if not long, are very uncertain. Compared with the very definite position of the city worker in these respects, the man who works on the land is at a great disadvantage. Social life in the country, if therte be any at all, is very dull, and there are practically none of the amusements that are so attractive and easily found in the city. On the other hand, 'the home life of the worker in the country is of a poor standard. Indeed, it can in a large percentage of instances be described as little better than squalid. What is also a serious drawback is the very general lack of facilities for educational improvement for youths and adults. The young man in the city has access to all kinds of evening schools and libraries, and has every chance of improving his kno"wledge in his calling or in a general way. The young worker in the country has no such opportunities. On the whole it does seem that, ns things are at present, a young man needs to be very fond indeed of the country to withstand the call of the city. It goes without saying that labour is jjuat as important a factor in the pastoral and farming industries as it is in any other, and unless the conditions can be made satisfactory and attractive to workers, everything else done to stimulate and develop land cultivation and production will be rendered useless. It may be that the work on the farm, regulated as it is by seasonal and erratic weather conditions, precludes much of the definiteness of working hoars possible in a city factory or warehouse, but even if the working hours have to be rather long at some periods of the year, surely something can be done to make more definite the time which a farm worker has to give to his work. It has to be remembered that atone time not so very long ago butchers and bakers, for example, had to work very long hours because it was believed that bread could only be made at night, and that fermentation processes could not be regulated and would wait for no man. Meat shops appeared to be always open, the reason given for this being that that necessity of life should be purchasable at almost any hour of the day. Whatever difficulties there may be about definite working hours, there surely can be none about paying good wages for the work done. No industry can be sound which is based on low and insufficient wages. It may be contended that the wages now paid are satisfactory, but experience shows that young men continually come from the country bitterly complaining of the lowness of pay for country work. That has struck me as important. One thing the returned soldiers complain about in regard to taking up farm work is the conditions of pay, and of life in the country. It may be that they had in mind their experience in the country and the attractions of the city. I frequently have young men come to me who have saved up enough money to come to Sydney to get into a trade or to follow some similar calling. They complain about the misery of life in the country. 265.3. Those same men would buck like fury at having to pay Is. per lb. for meat or an additional price for bread, and they would join in an agitation against giving the farmer a good price for his produce to enable him to pay higher wages 1 — That may be. 2654. To enable good wages to be paid in the country the farmei has to get a good price for his produce 1 — Yes. I have a graph which shows the increase of wages in most of the ordinary trades in the city since 1914, and the result of the increase in wages. 2655. Have you a graph showing the prices of the products of those wages t — Yes. The men are no better off. 2656. Could you make a graph showing the increase in rural wages associated with a graph showing the corresponding increase in price of commodities? — Yes. I am not here to suggest a solution of the difficulty, but there must be one. I know that dissatisfaction exists. 2657. Everybody will agree with y6u on that, but what is your remedy? — I have heard it said that we do not farm the land in the best possible way. It seems to me that our farming is too rough. It may be that our farmers are not well enough trained, and that there is a loss which should be saved, and which, if it were saved, could go towards paying better wages to farm hands. Farm work ought to be attractive to men. 2658. Mr. Hunt.] It is to the man who lays himself out to be a boss man, and should not that be the incentive of every man who goes on the land 1 — Yes, but the number of bosses must necessarily be less than the number of men employed in the industry. I know of one place where good wages are paid. It is a big farm, and a large number of men are employed. They get good wages, regular hours are worked, and the living conditions are good. 2659. Mr. R. J. Black. Is that a wheat farm?— No, a general farm. It is very well managed. 2660. The bulk of the farms in this State are owned by individuals who do not employ many men ?— That is so. 2661. Chairman.'] I would not like it to go abroad that farmers do not pay good wages. I believe they do, but they cannot pay wages compared with those paid in Sydney ? That is so. The raising of the standard of home life, the increasing of social intercourse, the development of rational country amusements, and the provision of facilities for educational improvement are ail matters which can be brought a,bout by good organisation in accordance with a well devised plan. The desire for a better built and furnished and well managed house on the part of the women could be the objective of a scheme of education in domestic science. .Ability to dress themselves well and appear neat and attractive would likewise result from the women having had instruction in the women's handicrafts of home needlework, dressmaking, £tnd millinery. A woman who can manage a home well, even to cooking and attractively serving meals, and who can vie with the city girl in everyday neatness of home attire, will be able to improve and make f fery attractive indeed the home of the country worker. She will have this advantage, that her home will have the beauty of the country for a setting, and will far out-do the usual city or suburban house situated on the small plot, and often'in very ugly surroundings. It must be emphasised that the mere establishment of classes of instruction for those important branches of a woman's education will not suffice to britig about the desired result. Such classes would be necessary in some places, but what is really needed is a good organisation to get the girls to put into practice at home the instruction which they ought to receive in those subjects whilst at the school. The excellent work done by itinerant instructors IGO Wit7ieM~J. Nangle, 23 November, 1920. instructors in actual farming and dairying in tho United States could be copied here with advantage on a large scale, not only in the work of farming but in the ma'ter of country home mana,gement, and women's handicrafts as well. Nowadays it is recognised that it is not sufficient to tell people what they should do but it is realised that they have to be trained and organised into doing it. The. welfare organisers employed by large firms in other countries, and, to some extent, m this State, are examples of the necessity for direction and oversight in these matters. There are plenty of woraon in this country gifted with organising powers of a high order, any one of whom, if given a district of reasonable size and a free hand to go about. the task as she thought best, would in a sho.rt time by the exercise of that tact and ability, revolutionise'the life of the scattered but cheerless and uninviting settlers' homes. Perhaps what I have said about developing the better home-life as one of the means of stemming the tide of country migration towards the cities may appear to have very little connection with the Committee's inquiry, but I believe it has a great deal to d'o with the matter A few weeks ago, when on an official trip, I passed througt a lonely stretch of country. "When at the foot of a bi" hill I could see about half-way up a settler's shack, at the door of which a woman safe The house was a rude two-roomed structure set in the middle of a rather pretty grassy space. The house was devoid of the slightest attempt at anything that gave it a home-like effect. There was an utter absence of even a garden or flowering plant of any kind, and it was the bareness and want of home effect rather than the plainness of the structure that made it a blot on the land. On approaching nearer, it could be seen that the woman had a chiW lying across her knees. It would be difficult to suggest a more depressing spectacle than that which the woman and her home made. The listless, despondent appearance of the woman as she sat on the doorstep, without interest enough to even return the hand-wave which I gave her, filled me with sadness. Imagine the effect of that scene on the husband when he returns daiiy from work somewhere in the neighbourhood. That scene is only one of many of a similar kind to ba" seen by any observant traveller in the country. Can it be wondered that men and women crave to get to the city under such conditions 1 2662. If you walked through some of the slums of Sydney you would see worse things than that? I do not think so. 2663. Mr. Home.] That woman had plenty of fresh air ? Yes, but these people want to be made happy. That woman probably did not know how to carry on a home. She probably had no training. There is only one way to train those women to do their part better, and that is by having women to give them instruction. In three or four visits to the woman's homo a trained woman would have an immense influence upon her. Probably the poor kind of a home of the farm-worker is due as much to the nomadic life led by those people as t) the want of knowledge of home-management by the women folk. There is, apparently, just as much neel for effort towards the establishment of a system of home-ownership as for training in home- management, A resolution passed at a recent municipal conference in favour of the resumption of areas surrounding country municipalities, with a view to a reallotment of the land into small holdings in fee- simple, would lead to a great improvement. Country workers could be encouraged to take up these small areas and to build permanent homes. In the intervals between seasonal employment on other farms, the worker could spend his labour on his small holding, thus securing a continuance, or at any rate, a supplement of income, and much better home conditions. Generally, much better social conditions could also be secured under such settlement. The single men employed on the basis of wage and keep on farms are seldom in a much better position than those of the married men referred to. In notable instances good living conditions exist, but in the great majority of cases the men are very poorly provided for. In that respect, there is very little improvement on the earliest days of the country when rough conditions were unavoidable. Social progress has included an immense improvement in the living conditions of the working man in every industry but those of pastoral and farming industries. It is difficult to account for that, unless on the ground that having been rough at the beginning, owing to stress of circumstances, it has remained so, and has become a custom. To remedy it requires legislation providing for proper living conditions, especially for those employed on farms, and it can be contended that such legislation would benefit, not only the industry as a whole, but the employers as well as employees. Large manufacturers and retailers in Sydney and other Australian cities now make elaborate provision for the comfort and well-being of employees, and find that it is economically sound and very profitable to do so. 2664. JUr. lanes-Noad.] Distance alone in the country prevents much social intercourse ? That is so. 266-5. Despite the things to which you have referred, there is just as much industrial unrest in the city wiih higher wages as there is in the country 1, Yes, but there does not appear to be any reason why farmers employing labour would find it otherwise than in their own interests to make similar provision for the welfare and happiness of those upon whom they have to rely for help in their business. It has become recognised in educational work that children must be taught to play as well as given instruction in the seriou.s things of life. Consequently, every well-organised school has a sports teacher on its staff. It is not so well realised that, in adult life, play is just as important as work. Seldom is effort made to organise play or sport on a general scale in a community. Yet there is no reason why, in the interests of the people in any country, it should not be done. There is no reason why some effort should not be made to organise a scheme of rational amusement and sport into the life of the country worker of the State The innate love of sport is one of the best features in the character of the Australian, and that is largely why he IS the splendid type he is. Yet, in the country, especially in the m^n sparsely populated districts, he does not practise it very much. The national games of cricket and football are played, but not to the extent desirable. Competitions in chopping and ploughing have become purely show-ground features, and . they are generally amongst men who travel from one end of the country to the other, specially for the purpose, and who may b3 regarded as professionals. An immense interest would be added to country life if cricket, football, boxing, and other athletic clubs could be well organised and kept in active operation. Tliat couU be done by organising, much in the same way as I have already suggested for the improvement of home-life. It ought to be more easily done, as with sufficient backing the matter could be entrustci to the r.-.V.gnised sports organisations One necessary thmg HI the way of backing would be the offering by the State of large prizes for competition between districts. The setting aside of a fairly large sum of money annually for the purpose of encourag ing the development of country sport and active participation therein by country men would be money veil 161 Witnesses— a, Nangle, 23 NovemU/, aiid F. Ray, 24 Ifovember, 1920. well spent, since it would add an interest to country life and act as a set-off to the craving to get to the city for amusement. Sport should be-encouraged in the country. There should be athletic meetings in the various centres. 2666. It would take some of them half a day to travel to the sports meetings ? I do not think so, 2667. Chairman.] I know of no country district, laige or small, that has not its football club or cricket club. I have seen more tennis in the country districts than in the metropolitan area, and they are always racing horses ? There should be more taeilities for sport in the country. 2668. Mr. Hunt.'] Would you make sport compulsory 1 No ; but I would encourage it. There are cases where the country school-house is occasionally used for social gatherings. School-houses are fortunatolj' scattered all over the country, oven in the most sparsely populated parts, and though many of the buildings are very small, each could be made a social centre where people living in the surrounding district could meet for social intercourse, and where such innocent pleasures as listening to music and singing, dancing, and even playing cards, might be indulged in by the old and young. The use of the school building for such purposes in the evenings would not interfere in any way with the educational work — very likely it would help. From the educational point of view, there is something very fine in the idea that the country school-house should be the social centre in a sparsely populated district. If nothing else resulted, the youths and adults, at least, would be kept in touch with the school and the teacher. It would also enable the school to become the connecting link between the State Librarian and the scattered population of the district in the matter of country book service. It is much to the credit of the country school-teacher that he is generally found leading in any social activity going on. It is likely that he could be relied upon to help were the suggestion to make the school-house a real cantre of social life, as well as the centre of instruction for the young, put into practice. This suggestion is intended to apply in the main to those places where the population is sparse, and where there are no recreation halls or schools of arts. WEDI^ESDAY, 2i NOVEMBER, 1920. lloxv. Sir JOSEPH CAERUTHERS (in tub Chair). Hon. H. E. HORNE, I Ho\. A. E. HUNT, Hon. a. SINCLAIR, | Hon. G. H G. VARLEY. Hon. S. K JNNES-NOAD. Francois Ray, bacteriologist, sworn and examined : — 2669. Chairman.] You are a Frenchman, and a bacteriologist ? Yes. 2670. You studied under the great Louis Pasteur ? My master. 2671 During what time did you study under Pasteur ? 'From 1893 to 1895, until I lost him. lit died on 15tb November, 1895. 2672. Did you afterwards remain at the Pasteur Institute 1 I worked under Professor Mctchcnikoir,, Pasteur's successor, until 1899. 2673. Professor Jkletchenikoff practically stands second to Pastr.ur? -Metchenikoff's is a new school. Ho revolutionised medical and bacteriological science. He discovei'cd phagocytosis, (ho destruction of microbes by phagocytes, how the phagocjtes (the white cells in the blood) fight diseases, and how the red corpuscles of the blood convey oxygen to the rest of the cells of the body. I have an agreement with tlio Pasteur Institute, under which I came to Australia. My position in Australia is authorised under tho seal of the Pasteur Institute, dated 6th June, 1906. (Commission jrroduced and read.) 2674. That is vised by the Commissioner of IPolice and the British Consul at Paris 1 Yes. 2675. You have authority to represent the Pasteur Institute in Pasteur vaccines in Australia, includii'g Tasmania and New Zealand ? Yes ; in the Southern Hemisphere generally. 2676. That agreement still holds good ? Yes. I was given special permission under the agreement. I have managed the work of the Pasteur Institute in general in Australia. 2677. I understand that in 1899 you went to Vienna on behalf of the Pasteur Institute ? Yes. 2678. You represented the Pasteur Institute at the Laboratory in Vienna'!. No, not the Laboratory ; it was a branch for all the Pasteur vaccines. • It was not quite paying, and they asked me to go tliere. Finding that Vienna was not a suitable centre, I arranged to transfer my operations to Budapesth. I recommended that the woi'k be transferred there. I remained in Budapesth for about four years. 2679. Then you came under an agreement to Australia ? Under a special agreement to act on behalf of the Pasteur Institute in this country. 2680. Will you briefly describe what you were taught at the Pasteur Institute ? I was taught the necessity for thoroughness in all experiments made. I was taught not to be hasty in coming to conclusions. That was my old master's great belief — not to be hasty in anything you undertake. I am lucky to have had the privilege of working under Pasteur, whom I lost too early. 2681. Did you get a thorough training in the manufacture of vaccines at the Pasteur Institute 1 I must have, or else they would not have given me my present commission. 2682. Your training was as thorough as could be obtained anywhere in the world, and you received it under a great master Yes. 2683. What have you been doing in Austriilia? Since I arrived in this country in 1906 I have prepared vaccines for anthrax, blackleg, pleuro-pneumonia, swine fever, actinomycosis, tuberculosis, contagious mammitis, and other stock diseases, as well as vaccines for influenza, whooping cough, small pox, and others needed by medical men, stock breeders, and station manager^. I recently worked to prevent an outbreak of swine fever, and I made a serum. I conducted experiments under the Stock Department, under the supei-vision of the Chief Inspector of Stock, which was successful. 2684. You conduct your own labo'-atoy ? Yes, at Rand wick. I can make any vaccine and prr.sor?o it, - t6325_X ' 268C. 162 Witnei»—V. Ray, 24 November, 1920. 2685 You consider that your laboratory is the best equipped in Australia 1 Yes. I am not ashamed 1» show it to anybody. I can compete with the University Laboratory or any Government institution J have been waiting for two or three machines to add to my laboratory, facilities which I have not been able to obtain because of the war. ,11 t i, 2686 Have vou a staff working at your laboratory ? No, I never employ any hands, because I have found out that if you employ assistants to help you make vaccines, they have no responsibility and you have no control over them. My wife is my only assistant. She knows, as much about the work as i do. 2687. You take personal responsibility for everything you do at your laboratory 1 Yes. 2688. It is difficult to get efficient assistants ? It is not difficult if you can get them with the necessary ambition. , . . , „ • tu 2689. It is difficult to get them already trained? I would not take a ready trained man. He ^s m the wrong groove. 2690. You would insist on training him yourself ? Yes. 2691. Can you make any vaccine ? Any vaccine, whatsoever. 2692. "Will you guarantee it ? Yes. 2693. You can preserve it 1 Yes. 2694. That is part of your training under Pasteur 1 Yes. 2695. You have no doubt about your ability to make any vaccine and preserve it 1 None whatsoever. 1 have made many. My anthrax culture is seventeen years old. I never lose it. I keep it going, Pasteur taught tne how to make the culture virile when necessary. 2696. You have your own method of testing it 1 Yes. 2697. What other vaccines have you ? I have many, and I never lose a culture. They are too valuable. ] 2698. You keep a stock of cultures ? Yes. 2699. I understand you have practically all vaccines for medical men and stock-breeders ? Yes. 2700. Will you give the Committee the benefit of your experience in connection with your virus for rats and mice? Yes. In 1907 Dr. Danysz carried out experiments in this country for the purpose of exterminating rabbits. 2701. Dr. Danysz was another representative of the Pasteur Institute here? No ; he came here privately on his own account in response to an invitation. The New South Wales pastoralists, deciding to fight the rabbit pest, made an agreement with Dr. Danysz to come here. 2702. He is still associated with the Pasteur Institute? Yes, buf-. his visit here on that occasion bad no relationship to the Pasteur Institute, His visit here was independent of that absolutely. When Dr. Danysz came here there were articles in the papers about the rat and mice plague. I had known him at the Pasteur Institute and I said to him, " What about that rat virus ; they are sure to have a plague of rats here." The Pasteur virus for the destruction of rats is on sale in France, and can be easily procured. It is not harmful to other animals. 2703. I have seen the Pasteur virus for rats on sale in the shops of Paris, but I could not bring any to Sydney, because of the prohibition? Quite so. In 1907 I distributed thousands of copies of a pamphlet on the Pasteur virus throughout the wheat belt of New South Wales and Victoria. In that pamphlet there was this : A license has already been procured for the sale of this product, which affords absolutely the same up-to-date and scientific method known for exterminating rats. The virus can be handled with impunity and placed on bread or other suitable bait, is readily eaten by rats, in which it induces a disease, which as a rule proves fatal in eight to fourteen days. The disease is absolutely innocuous to man and all animals except those of the rat genu's, which it so affects that they seek air, water, and open spaces, and never die in their burrows, or under floors, or behind wainscots. Infected rats also transfer the disease to other rats with which they come in contact. Tbe virus is largely used in the fields all over the continent. 2704. You can buy it in grocer's shops in Paris ? Yes. 2705. How many years has it been in use ? Twenty-seven years. 2706. It is used just as commonly on the Continent as we would use Rough-on-Rats in Australia ? Yes. I sold a few hundred tubes, but the people were not sufficiently educated to recognise the value of it. 2707. You know that we have recently had a mice plague amongst the wheat stacks ; did you get any opportunity to treat them ? I was not asked to do so. I never would ask. I did my duty in 1907. 2708. In 1907 yo.u had put into print what you could have put into practice to day if you had bee» asked to do so ? Yes. 2709. You take up the stand that you will hot push yourself ? Ye?, I hate to push myself. I was taught by my master not to do it. 2710. You are not out to make money ? No, I could have had money when the influenza was on. 2711. Could you have coped with the mice plague ? Yes. I am satisfied on that. ■2712. You did it once before ? Yes. 2713. You know what was done here in regard to the destruction of rabbits ? Yes. 2714. You know what the virus was ? Yes. 2715. You can get a culture? It is easy to get it. 2716. You know that Dr. Danysz experimented here ? Yes, at Broughton Island. 2717. He was forced to experiment on Broughton Island ? Quite so. 2718. Because of the fear of introducing a disease that might affect stock or humans ? Yes, or bird life. 2719. Did you form an opinion as to whether the germ would have proved successful if it had been tried on the mainland ? Yes, I f9rmed the opinion that it would. I saw Dr. Danysz experiment. I was at Broughton Island with him. He infected in one yard two rabbits and killed 120 as the result. In 1907, I think in November, an outbreak of disease in rabbits was reported at Yalgogrin, about 450 miles from Sydney. 2720. Dr. Danysz was not allowed to conduct experiments on the mainland? Quite so. The outbreak at Yalgogrin was called the Yalgognn disease. llll 2^' "''^^^If ' ^^'l^ * 3742. I believe that a number of returned soldiers have lost seriously from swine fever? Tremendously 2743. Were you appealed to on behalf of them? By the Deputy Comptroller of Repatriation, Colonel l^arr. I made an offer to Colonel Farr. I said that if the Government would let me I would "O on to (!very returned soldiers' pig farm and treat their pigs free of charge with preventive inoculation. " 2744. What is the present position in regard to pig cholera. Did the Department give you an opportunity to put your method of combating it into practice 1 No, it stopped me. 274.5. Were you given any reason ? No, no reason. I am waiting for it. I never ask for any reasoni 2746. Do they immunise pigs ? No, they do nothing. 2747 You can immunise them ? Yes. 2748. You have proved it by test ? Yes, 2749. These diseases are controlled in America? Yes, for vears and venra Th^rrU^-,^ .,i „ u i. n j L°riirr"t^l?;'=*' ''"■"' '''^ »' *«^'-^^^^^^^^^ 27o0. By the same process as yours ? Yes, the same process, 27.51. The Pasteur method? Yes. ^y%SZ Z^SiT^'l :ail::t "^^^^^SlJ^^^r^^^^ by Queensland, but it meant here will not allow me to ticks, ap.irfc from certain pa^uo „i „i,c J.1U1 ui I v.iiHsr -nn ivi ■,,..„, 1 1., . u u t , - - south to Victoria. If they will let me go oXork :« thH^W i'^ f '"" i-"''" '^""^ *'^"y ^'^^ ""«"« that I could get rid of the pest in this country A'"^"^^"^ ^^ to eradicate the tick, I am sure • S'of T'oa '°" '^'' " ''' "' '"'" ""^ ^^ "°^°^y *° ^'"P y- ^ Ye, the law_the Noxious Microbes 2754. You are acquainted with the American method of getting rid of the tick ? Yes, 2/0.0. You could put the same measures in operation here ? Yes it onlv w.nt. .• 2756. You understand anthrax ? Yo., that Is ar, old subloct ^ organisation. 2757. 165 Wilneao—F. Ray, 24 November, 1920. 2757. You operate against that now 1 Yes, absolutely T have prepared vaccine for thousands of animals. You cannot please everyone. The grazier may wait too long, lie wants to see the disease appear, and then ho tries to stop it. If a sheep has anthrax in a latent form, and it is vaccinated with the bacillus of antlirax, it will die, because it hastens the disease. They blame the vaccine ; but that is not the caufe. 2758. You had not sufficient organisers for the work? 1 had three operators going. 2759. Your life work is not in the field. It is in the laboratory. You manufacture the vaccines, and there must be some other agency to apply them ? Yes. 2760. Is there~much blackleg in this State 1 Yes. In Queensland it is pretty bad. 12761. Do you supply a successful vaccine for blackleg ? For the last nine year^ about 70,000 d'^ses have been sent away yearly. 2762. Is it eftective ! All tlie pastoralists use the vaccine. 2763. You have referred to contagious mammitis ? Yes, it was vtry bad on the South Coast. 2764. It is very bad now 1 So I hear. 2765. Have you a culture for tliat? Yes, a vaccine like human vaccine, that is minimising and prophy- lactic. If it is injected into a healthy cow in a sufficiently large dose, it will prevent the disease in the cow. or, if the disease is not too far advanced in the cow, it will certainly cure her. 2766. It is not too well known that there is such a vaccine? I think Mr. Anderson, veterinary surgeon, experimented with the vaccine at Berrinia. I do not know whether the Department made the vaccine, but ho had very good results. 2767. It is a common method of controlling disease in France 1 Yes. 2768. And on the Continent sjenerally ? Yes, with serums and vaccines. 2769. It is not well understood here that there i« this remedy 1 No. 2770. I have not heard of a dairyman on the South Coast using it? Quite so. '' 2771. You do not practice as a doctor or a veterinary surgeon? No ; I never leave my laboratory. 2772. Contagious mammitis can be overcome by the use of vaccine ? Absolutely?" '"'"' \ 2773. What has been the loss-from pleuro-pneumonia? Tremendous. That is Viery'tiiu'ch neglected too. 2774. Can that be overcome by preventive vaccine? Easily. ' ' i . <. 2775. It is not being done ? It is done by a certain class of graziers who believe in sci(?ntific'ni^;lh"6'ds and in the principle that prevention is better than cure. I get orders from the country from' th^n'Sl^ho have lost three or four pigs, and are looking for a virus. * "'' ' '' 2776. Many pastoralists are using your vaccines ? Yes ' ' 2777. Have we foot and mouth disease in this country? No, not yet. ' 2778. There is always a danger of diseases being introduced .here? Yes. Although Australia is fairly free, there is always the danger ' of foot and mouth disease and black tongue from Soutli Africa being introduced here, not by stock itself, but by the packing, around machinery, such as that around agricultural implements. They are invariably packed in straw and bay. 2779. We do not get many such implements from South Africa? They arc all packed in straw wherever they come from. 3780. We do not import much from the linderpest countries? Forage goes from the Argentine to America. 2781. You consider there is a risk in straw packing of stock disease being transported to this country 1 Yes. The germs lie in a latent form as spores in the straw. 2782. We should be ready to cope with it if it does come here ? We should be ready. 2783. Have you given any study to the blow-fly problem ? I have not touched the question practically. 2784. Have you given any thought to it? 1 have my own opinion about the blow-iiy. 2785. What is it? My opinion is that the blowfly must be attacked, as any life on our planet must be attacked, by a disease peculiar to its own species. The blow-lly must be attacked by a contagious and disastrous disease peculiar to its own species, and which is harmless to other species. It will be necessary to discover a specific contagious disease deadly to th(! blow fly and io infect blow-flies wi^h it. The Pasteur Institute at Algiers coped with the grasshopper pest iu that part of Northern Africa by infecting the ground at night with a deadly disease to the grasshopper, which takes its flight late at night or early in morning. The grasshoppers were killed in millions, and the grasshopper plague there was wiped out. 2786. The method was based on finding out a disease deadly to grasshoppers. Did they find a virus ? They studied the sick grasshoppers. They discovered an infectious disease amf-ngst them which caused certain de^th to them. 2787. Did they isolate the germ ? Yes. They tried it on guinea pigs and other animals, and they found that it was not injurious to any but the grai?shopper. They cultivated the germ in broth, and at lught poured it over the ground where they knew a flight of grasshoppers would tike place. The grasshoppers ate the infected matter and contaminated one anotiior. They will die within three hours after infection, which allows them sufficient time to infect each other. 2788. The system was effective ? Absolutely. 2789. Is that the same method as was adopted in South America ? Yes, in the Argentine. 2790. , In your opinion, that metliod is the best means to get rid of the blow-fly ? That is the only rational way to get rid of the blow-fly and all insect pests. 2791. It has been proposed to propagate wasps and let them loose to combat the blow-fly? Any such method would be very slow. ■ We cannot propagate them as quickly as the blow-fly niultiplif s, and therefore the method would be useless. 2792. It is not to bo compared with the wonderful action of a virulent germ ? No. 2793. We have black disease here. Have Pasteur-trained men attempied to cope with that ? I do not think so. 2794. Is there not something lite black disease on the continent ? I think there is something similar m Scotland. 2795. Did not the German scientist, Koch, try to combat it ? No. We do not suffer on the continent from that disease. 2796. What is the best way to get rid of it? Study it in the field. There is no use in getting samples of bJood sent to you in the city, because you do not know how they were taken. You cannot tell whether the blood has been artificially contaminated, or whether the man who took the sample was capable of taking it properly. 2797. 166 Witnest—F. Ray, 24 November, 1920. 2797. In a post-mortem examination of l)lood from a sheep you possibly find 'quite a number of organisms? iTiousands, if it has not, been taken purely. 2798. Some organisms which would occur after death 1 Yes, or perhaps before death, if they were in the 2799. There is a danger of the careless observer confusing them 1 Yes, it may be misleading to those, who study the disease. 2800. It is a question for field study 1 Yes, for no other. 2801. We have no organisation here for doing that? N"o. 2802. You do not consider it impossible to find out what black disease is 1 No, I do not think .so. It is a matter of time. You cannot happen on these things. You have to take them step by step. I do not see why it should not be cleared up. 2803. Pleuro-pneamonia has been overcome by the use of preventive vaccine. You have a monopoly of that vaccine 1 Yes. 3804. Is it a Pasteur Institute vaccine ? Yes, in its method of preparation, but it is my application. 2'605. You had a monopoly right to all the Pasteur vaccines ? Yes. 2806. You are willing to make them available for the use of the country ? Yes. 2807. You want assistance ; you' want a fair go ? Yes, and the pastoralists behind me. Then they may have everything I have. I will ^ive ^t to them. 2808. Were yoU' not the first private person to produce a vaccine for small-pox during the small-pox outbreak ? Yes. 2809. None of your vaccine showed bad results ? That is so. 2810. Dr. Paton was principal Government Medical Officer then ? Yes. 2811. Did he not make an offer to you to take charge of the State lymph farm ? Yes. 2812. Y^oii declined it? Yeg. 2813. Why! , I had no time. , . 2814. During thfeiasfiiJiifluenaaoutbreak did you investigate the disease? I did, but what I did wasalittle too late, because I had not the opportunity tp-'So'tt at once. The Federal authorities would n6't allow me into'tbff'Qtfai'iihtineSta.tiori'atM'toly. * I asked permission to go there from Mr. J. D. FifczGerald, Minister tor il4kitUl'Md-W.t^ W.'Ji. Hall, Minister for Justice. That was when the disease was confined to the Quarantine Station, but they could not obtain the necessary permission for me to go there! I, 'had. no chance to study the disease properly. One day Dr. R. S. McKinuon, of North Sydney, with whom I had done much work, rang me up from the hospital and asked me to come over straight away to a patient .wbo'wSs jJfetty'bad. I went over and took a sample of sputum frpm that patient. He died two hours aftei^waitd's; ahd that was my culture against influenza. It was a sucipe-ss, and many doctors used it as a preventive and curative vaccine. I called that vaccine Blue-pandemic. 2815. Did many medical aien use it ? Yes. Dr. Greaves, of Waratah, wrote an article on the subjot, and which was published in the British Medical Journal, and afterwards in the Sun- 2816.' Did Dr. Burge use it? Yes. Dr. McKinnon's medical friends also used it. I did not charge fcM* the Vaccine. 1 never made one penny out of it. I saw the misery that the disease caused, and I did what I could tp prevent it. 2817. You gave your vaccine for the benefit of humanity ? Yes. 2818. You have a vaccine for whooping-cough? I can make it. I make it generally from the patient himself. 2819. According to the Pasteur system? Yes. All my methods arc Pasteur methods. 2820. They hav^ stood the test of the world ? Yes. They are the best methods. It is the old copy. 2821. Have we any organisation here of a satisfactory character for giving to society or the industries the benefit of the scientific knowledge of a man like Pasteur or other great scientists ? No. 2822. If we had, what would it mean 1 A great benefit to humanity and to industry. 2823. You are not hostile to existing agenq^es. You are friendly with the University authorities ? Yes ; I have no axe to grind, 2834. You have no axe to grind, or grievance, or grudge of any kind ? No, none whatever.. 2825. You simply speak from a desire to render a public service ? Yes. 2826. Mr. InnesNoad.] There are laws here which prevent experiments similar to yours from being properly carried out ? I cannot say if it is just that. But there is the tick question. When the influenza was here there was no law to prevent me going to the Quarantine Station for the benefit of humanity, but I was not allowed to go there, 2827. Chairman.] They did not come to you for advice, and you were not going to run after them ? Quite so. 2828. If we had. a proper organisation here you would get your place in it ? Yes, I would do my duty. 2829. As there is no organisation, you are working a lone hand at Randwick. You are getting more orders than you can cope' with ? Quite so. 2830. Is there, an opportunity for any research work in this country ? A tremendous opportunity. The field is neglected. 2831. Can you quote what Pasteur thought about research work in new countries and the coloiiies ? Yes, I can translate a paragraph from a speech delivered at the Pasteur Institute by Dr. Roue, manager of the Institute, before the President of the Republic of Prance, on 15th November, 1913, the twenty-fifth anniversary of the foundation of the Institute, as follows : n.a.„.^r»7w 'i™^!;?"^'^ 0.1 this earHi should possess a bacteriological institute, especially colonies which have an iZ^t^TiTjZ^yi^i:^^^^ """ "'"' ""^ ""'"""" °" °" ^°"*^"^"^' I" 'hose'countries a bacteriological 2832 C^wiman] That points out that new countries have maladies peculiar to them and foreign to other countries, and that, therefore, there is need for bacteriological institutes in those young counties to deal with new and unknown problems ? Yes. ^^^■^' .f*"; £""''^ ^r i?"S."^VO'^ *h*nk it would take to experiment on the destruction of blow-flies to prove that they can be effectively exterminated ? If the experimenter had the help of a man on the land who would follow his directions and gather sick blow-flies for him it should not take long. The blow-flies would have to be sent down in tubes, and they would have to be nourished on blood, so that they would not die too quickly. If that were done, I could find the disease at once. If I had the sick flies I could make a cnl cure m a month. „ooi 28o4. 167 Witmss—F. Ray, 24 November, 1920. 2834. Chairman.'] But the sick blow-fly would require to have the disease you wanted it to have, and before you could find that you might have to wait a year or two ? Yes. 2835. How long did they have to investigate before they exterminated the grasshopper at Algiers ? About eighteen months. They might have had to wait five or ten years. 2836. Mr. Hunt.'] There are two kinds of blow-flies— the green fly and the brown fly. Would that do for ehe test ? The green fly is the poisonous one. 2837. My idea is that the fly comes off carrion and other poisonous matter, and alights on a sore on the sheep's back and poisons it? The body throws off any poison matter. No absorption would take place. 2838. This would be immediately after shearing ? No absorption would take place. The body does not absorb anything. The body throws off" poisonous matteir unless it enters the blood vessels. 2839. Mr. Sinclair.] It has been stated in evidence that the blow-fly does not produce the disease germ itself, but that it causes the sore on the sheep, which is gttacked with other bacteria? That is quite possible. It is like tetanus. If I inject into myself pure spores of virulent lockjaw I will not get it, but if I inject into myself tetanus germs plus lactic acid, the tetanus takes on an evolution, and I will die of it. 2840. Mr. Hunt.] Do you want this fly when it starts to crawl out, just before it commences to fly ? No, I want you to kill the sheep just after the fly stings it. I take it that you are now referring to the blue fly which stings the sheep, and not to the brown fly which blows the wool. I want sick flies of both species to conduct the two inquiries into the ravages of the brown fly which blows, and the blue fly which stings. 28'41. You want them as they crawl out ? I want the sheep's blood as soon as the blue fly stings the sheep. I might get a culture straight away, but I might have to wait years. 2842. Chairr/ian.] It would be work in connection with which the entomologist could work well with the bacteriologist ? Yes. 2843. Mr. Hunt.] How long would a blow-fly just coming out live without being fed ? In ca|)tivity it would not live long. It mijst be well aerated, and fed on meat or gravy. 2844. Mr. Innes-Noad.] Thorough organisation is requii'ed to properly carry out the work ? Yes. 2845. Is it your opinion that that organisation would be better carried out by a Government D^arfcment, or by private enterprise ? I would rather have private enterprise. I wouth rather work like the Pasteur Institute, and in with the Government. 2846. Can you give me an idea of what money would be required to properly establish such organisation t A properly-equipped laboratory with thorough organisation would entail an expenditure of d635,000 or £40,000. 2847. Chairman.] You would want observers ? Yes. 2848. The advantages would be so great that people would be willing to pay for them? Yes. 2849. Mr. Innes-Noad.] If the business were run by private enterprise, you would still want to h&ve a friendly undersitanding with the Government ? Yes. I would rather leave the Government officials out of it because they would only block the road to private enterprise, but I would work in with the Government. 2850. CAaw-waw.] The French Ministry is out to help the Pasteur Institute? Yes, but not in money. They make their money with their own vaccines. That covers the whole of their exipenses. 2851. Does the Pasteur Institute get no Government subsidy ? No. ■ 2852. How is it aided? By public subscriptions ? Baron Rothchild left 12,000,000 francs, Kolinoff left 25,000,000 roubles, ^nd Madam Hirsch left 8-000,000 francs to the Institute. Many others h*ve donated large sums to it. 2853. Pasteur died a poor man ? Yes, scientists generally die poor men. 2854. Mr. Home.] Is the' Yolgogrin Microbe still procurable? I can get it. 2855. Would you distribute some pf it ? I was ofiered by the Graziers much money to give them one tube. But I said " No; I am not going to break the law of any country." If it is made legal for me to give them the microbes, they are welcome to it. 2856. Mr. Sinclair.] Is it a fact that the French Government paid Pasteur when it engaged him to deal with diseases of the silk worm and also to inquire into the wine industry ? No. It gave him the opening and fapilities to help him along. That was all he wanted. 2857. Did not the Government speciflciaUy request him to undertake that 'task? Yes, in the case of the silkworm, but he never received any large sura of money. 2858. I wanted to show that the Government had some relation to Pasteur's work ? The Government protected him, and did not hamper him. 2859. The Government would have given him any money he wanted if he had asked for it ? Quite so. 2860. Mr. Innes-Noad.] He saved the wine industry of France ? Yes. 2861. He did not take any money ? No. 2862. If the work were done by private enterprise, would it be a dividend-earning concern ? It could be a dividehd-e-arning concern if the management wers properly looked after. 2863. Chairman.] You do not care how it is done, as long as it is done ? Quite so. 2864. What is La'Surbonnee, Paris? It is the Great University Academy — the highest school df science in Europe. 2865. Has it no subsidy froni the State ? No. 2866. It has been suggested that you should go to work in the Argentine, where you could do very well ? That is so. 2867. Mr. Hunt.] Would you be able to go to the country to study the blow-fly pest ; — could arrangements be made for you to do that ? The difficulty is, who would manage my business while I was away. 2868. Chairman.] That is not your work. Your work is in the laboratory ? Yes. 2869. Mr. 7a/rley.'\ Cpuld you send an assistant to the country? I have no assistant. My wife is my only assistant. 2870. Chairmam.] Mistakes have been made in this country. Some inoculations which cured sheep of disease have killed many more ? Yes. 16S WEDNESDAY, 25 NOVEMBER, 1920, ^V£0Cttt: Hon. sir JOSEPH CAliRUTHERS (in the Chair) Hon. W. T. DICK, Hon. J. TRAVERS, Hon a. E. HUNT, Hon. R. J. BLACK, Hon. H. E. HORNE, Hon. G. H. G. VARLEY. James Robert Fulton, retired farmer and grazier, sworn and examined : — 2871. Clhairman.] You have been on the land? Yes, for seventeen years on the Darling, and six at Barellan, 1 afterwards managed a station near Walgett for ten years. I came out from the Old Country at the age of 16 and learnt farming and hop-growing in the south of Tasmania. 2872. You have been farming in this State ? Yes, dairying and farming for twenty years, near Dungog. I have read Mr. Van Weenan's evidence given before the Committee about making ensilage in the stack, and burning the sides, whicli is something new to me. It is a very practicable suggestion, and I have no doubt if carried out would show good results. • 2873. You agree with Mr. Van Weenan's ■ pi'oposal in regard to the making of ensilage from natural growth ? Yes. 1 have made ensilap;e in a tub silo. I erected one on the dairy farm to hold 100 tons of silage. I put into the tub all kinds of weeds. It was wet weather. I put in a good deal of lucerne at the bottom. I afterwards put in sorghum and i:orn. I filled the tub, and when I came to use it I found the cattle ata it readily There could bo no better system of conservation of fodder for drought periods. At the same timp, I do not consider ensilage to be a whole ration. I believe that stock always want a little ■ hay with it, so that it is necessary to make hay. (Jn Ginghi station, where I was, they made a good deal of hay from Mitchell, Blue, and Coolah gras?. It makes excellent hay, and is easily garnered. That wa^! done when wages were not as high as they are now, and the cost now would ^Jierefore be increased. I kept the Blue grass hay for seven years, and then I mixed a litLlc salt with it to make it more palatable. The stock eat it as leadily as they eat oaten hay. 2874. You strongly recommend the making of hay and ensilage in the good seasons for use in dry times 1 Yes, it is absolutely necessary. There can be no better provision for drought. Hay is very inflamable, and it is necessary to guard against fire. Insurance on it is heavy. There should be some system by which both ensilage and hay could be ensured for a long time at a small rate, which would encourage other farmers in the Dungog district to go in largely for ensilage but they move slowly in those parts, and it seemed to be something now to them. A man at Singleton made two lots of hay. The first was made in fair weather, and was good hay. The second was made during a rainy period. Moisture dripped out from the cart as he caited it in, and it was put into the siick and left. When he used it afterwards he found it was the better stack of the two. The cows ate it more readily than they did the other, as it retained its nutriment. 2875. It went black ? Yes. 2876. Cattle would eat it, but I do not think horses would ? I do not think it is good feed for liOKes. Cattle want a little hay with it, 2877. You believe that the conservation of fodder is largely a matter of finance to the farmer. Will you amplify that opinion ? A great many of the farmers, especially the small dairy farmers, will not go in readily for ensilage without some system of finance, as they live too closely up to their means. Some system of finance Would encourage them to conserve fodder and would pay the expenses atiached to it. In the coastal districts they do not suffer so much from want of fodder as they do in the back country, where the drought is more severe. In the coastal diskricts three weeks of dry weather is a drought, while out back I have had to go through three years of it. 2878. Whatever you spent on storing ensilage or hay you would be amply rewarded for in a dry season. It would be a paying investment? Yes, in all cases. 2879. You believe that the farmer's operations run him so close to his financial limit that he cannot afford to provide himself with ensilage unless he is assisted 't I think he could do it, if he would afford it. He requires to see the good in it. 288.0. How would you encourage him ? There should be fome good system of finance. I do not remember one single man around my place who made ensilage. 2881. Have you read the evidence before the Committee of Mr. Cuthbert Potts, Principal of the Agricultural College at Gatton Queensland ? No. 2882. This is what he said : We could still use the machinery for rural finance, and wo could finance our produce conservation on exactly the same system as that on which I hope we are going to finance our land mortgage. For fodder conservation there are three kinds of loans. There are short-time loans for the man who is going to sell on the market; he will require a oertaia amount of assistance for two or three months. The second type of loan is for the man who is conserving fodder for his own ?o"rt^-traI^pVZi::a^^n:ecl^f There are three systems. The first is to enable the farmer to get an advance on his produce ; the second IS to give him some financial assistance to carry him on for two or three years; and the third is to help him by purchasing sapphes of bay and fodder to be stored at some central dep6t ? Yes. The second and third systems would be the most helpful. The first is now in use. You can always g-t an advance on your wool. •' ° 2883. Take a farmer who has an abundance of ensilage and who is carrying eighty or ninety milking cows. The next year he may be up against a .Irought With a little labour hi can o^onsWve 300 or 400 t'ons of ensilage, which costs him say 3s per ton, or £60 or £70. You believe that he would hesitate to do that because It is up against the question of finance ? Yes ; he has to pay everything down. ^^:^:::^^!^i::fi^r^ - -^^--e of ..o fro. 169 lVilnesa-3. R. Pulton, 25 November, 1920. 2886. It would be a good thing if there wore such a system 1 Yes. It is badly wanted. 2887. Do you know the system in operation in America ? No. 2888. Very few farmers in this State have studied the system abroad ; do you think many farmers trouble about what is going on in other countries 1 No. Most of tbem do not know what is going on on the other side of their own fence. 2889. Mr. Home.] They have too many troubles of their own 1 Perhaps. 2890. Chairman.] In America the^ have group farm loan associations in the neighbourhood of tlu) farms. There must be at least ten farmers in the association, although there may be forty or fifty. An application is made by a farmer who is a member of the group for an advance of, say, £G0. The loui is not approved unless it is recommended by the association, every member of which is a stock- holder in the land bank The land bank makes an advance of, say, .£60 on the recommendation of the local association. The money is obtained from the land bank, in which they have .5 per cent, of capital. If they take up a loan of £60 they have to take up £2 of stock. That group of farmers know the man who is going to borrow thn money. They know, too, how he is going to use it, and that when he commences to use it he will commence to pay off. Everything is under their own observation. Dj you think a .system like that would be workable here ? Yes, I feel sure it would. The difficulty amongst many of our farmers is one of finance ; but who would stand security ? 2891. They do not stand security for him. Under the American s/stem the liability is only limited to the amount of stock they take up 1 Supposing they get £60 ? 2892. They take 5 per cent. The main security is in the transaction itself. If the farmers think he is a bad mark they will not lend the money. If he is a man of good character they say that it is good enough. But their liability is limited to 5 per cent. ; that is all the risk they take ? If that system could bo worked here it would be a great advantage. 2893. Would it not be difficult to work it without local organisations 1 Yes. 2894-. A system of finance to help the farmer is practicable, if it is associated with local organisations and local supervision, without which it .would not be s^ife ? That is so. I wish to refer to the question of water supply in country districts. In many places artesian or sub-artesian water can be obtained, and could be run over the holdings. Artesian or sub-artesian water can be obtained in many localities between Walgett and Narrabri, at depths of from 60 to 100 feet, sometimes a little more ; but in that case it rises higher. 2895. That applies practically from Queensland to Victoria ? Yes, a certain distance from the foothills. I put down a bore a distance of about 40 feet, and tapped salt water for a short distance ; then I went through white pipeclay, and struck salt water again. I could get no artesian or sub-artesian water, but that country was afterwards tried for artesian water to a depth of 3,000 feet, and it was obtained. It could be run through the paddocks, and would be of great benefit to the stock in drought time. It would be very u.scful in some districts where agriculture is being carried on. In parts of the Darling country there is practically no water, except in the little " sand monkeys " or watercourses. 2896. Even where wheat is being grown? Yes. While at Barellan we ploughed a paddock for oati. When I went to dinner one day I said to the owner, " That ground would grow splendid wheat," but he and one or two overseers sitting at the table laughed at my statement. The owner admitted that it would grow wheat, but he said it would not be in my time. To-day that district is practically all under wheat. It used to grow oat» as thick as my finger. 2897. Before those districts can be closely settled, the water problem for household, stock, and agricultural purposes must be overcome t Yes. 2898. Last year a large number of holders in that part of the State were forced to leave their holdings, because there was not suflBcient drinking water or water for their horses ? That is so. T remember when water has had to be carted long distances to the farms. Water has gone bad in the tanks. 2899. Do you contend that there is plenty of artesian or sub-artesian water available, and that the settler has not the use of it ? Yes. 2900. It is for the Government or some organisation to make the water available ? Yes. Where artesian water can be obtained it should bo availed of, but it is beyond the financial power of the small holder to get it. 2901. If you spent £1,000 in tapping artesian water you would require a reticulation system to supply the settlers with water ? Yes. I have known artesian water to be conveyed 40 miles from the bore. It is of the utmost benefit, not only to the paddocks, but to the whole district. 2902. Sub-artesian water you cannot convey any great distance 7 No ; but it is generally very reliable when it is to be obtained in quantity, and it is easily lifted. It seems impossible to got farmers to go in for up-to-date methods. They will not spend money on machinery if they can do without it. They will work an old swing plough until it is worn out, and if you give them a good double-furrow plough tlioy will throw it aside. If, however, they find someone else using it they will follow him. Farm machinery parts should he standardised. Machinery is so expensive that unless the parts are standardised it means a very heavy call upon the farmers. The Ford Engineering Company have set the example iii that manner, in standardising the parts of their motors and machinery, but it is not general. I cannot understand why the agents for the various agricultural implement makers do not go out amongst the farniei's as paid men, because many farmers would be glad to pay to have their paddocks ploughed, when they have not the time or machinery to do it themselves. It would cost no more to pay those men for the work they would do than it would if they did the work themselves. The same thing is done in regard to shearing sheep. The shearers go round with their little plant and shear sheep, and I do not see why the agriculturalist should not benefit in the same way. I desire to say something about the roads in the country districts, especially in the north and north-western parts of the State. Before the railway was constructed to Walgett, it was almost impossible to follow the main road in wet weather, although it was half a mile wide. Bullock and horse teams used to cut right into it up to the axle, the surface being so soft and stoneless. Nothing would be better or cheaper than light lines of railway out there. 2903. Would not the settler have the same difficulty to get his produce to the light line of railway? I do not think so. At present the teams plough the roads backwards and forwards. 2904. The railway would be all right to the man who had a frontage to it, but the man who was some distance away would be still up against the diflSculty that you refer to ? Yes, but not so much as he would if he had to cart a ton of produce 130 miles from Walgett to Narrabri. 290.'5. t 6325— Y 170 Witness— J- R. Fulton, 25 November, 1920. 2905. Would not the difficulty be largely overcome if the vehicles had broader tyres ? I do not think «iy tyre would stand in that soft stuff. In wet weather it is mud. The settlers would not have so far to cart their produce to the railway. If we had good roads, even if it were necessary to .^ncrete them we could- get along all right, but until the railway went to Walgett the settlers had great difficulty in hauhng their tins on ?o the line. I have twenty years' experience of the North Coast country and I have never seen worse roads than there are in that part of the State, especially in wet weather. The Shires are obliged to spend much money on the main roads, and wherever there is a railway the mam road runs alongside it. To those roads all the feeders lead from the back country, and they all run to the railway. They seldom strike the main road until they are within a mile or less of some siding. There are roads m that district along which a motor lorry will take a full load and deliver it 16 miles within an hour But if rain comes the lorry is almost unworkable until the road is dry again, and then horses have to be requisitioned. Railway sleepers, girders, telegraph posts, and piles, are carted along the roads which the agriculturists use. They do not touch the main road until they are near the railway. The money is spent on the main road, while the other branch roads get into an impassable state. Roads which are feeders to the railway should be kept in good order, even if it is necessary to concrete them, so that the agriculturist can haul his produce to the railway with less difficulty. As things are there is not much encouragement for the dairyman or, the agriculturalist to produce a great deal, considering the conditions of the roads. 2906. Do you think that has had the effect of driving men away from the land ? It causes them great hardship. They would grow more produce if they knew they could cart it away without any trouble. 2907 You believe that more money should be spent on constructing good roads which would induce more agriculture and mean less hardship to the agriculturalists 1 Yes. 2908 Can you suggest how the money can be found? No. j- i. - ii, 2909. Like Micawber, you can keep on borrowing it? I suppose so. In the North Coast district the constant hauling of timber along the roads ruins them, and the people who cart the timber pay nothing for the upkeep of the roads. 2910. The Forestry Department obtain revenue from the timber and f)ays no proportion of that revenue towards making the roads ? No, they pay nothing for that purpose. 2911. You think it would be a fair thing for the Forestry Department to pay out of the revenue it receives for timber a, proportion to repair the roads damaged by the transport of timber 1 Yes, I do. There is a good deal of room in this country for research work, to find out how to combat our pests and diseases. I have nothing to say against the stock inspectors, who do their best, but often when I ask them what I should do for stock that have eaten poisonous plants or weeds they are unable to tell me. There are so many poisonous plants in the bush, and when cattle eat them there seems to be no remedy, or at least the stock inspectors cannot tell me of it. I have asked the inspectors about it, but they do not seem to know. 2912. Do not you think you are placing the stock inspector on a higher pedestal than he ought to be ? No, I think that is part of his duty. 2913. You express the opinion that the stock inspector ought to be able to tell you what you should do to treat a beast that has eaten a poisonous plant. You think that is part of his business ? Yes, and he would know what to do, if there was more research work. 2914. How could he know unless he made himself master of it? If it was known what plants were poisonous, the stock inspector would know what effect they would have on stock. 2915. If he knew that was his work ; is there any law that makes that his job? Yes, he is supposed to be able to tell us the cause of sickness in an animal. 2916. He would have to make himself master of the subject. What is the use of Pasteur, or of some other great scientist in Vienna, London or New York, having spent years in research work, unless the stock inspector makes himself master of that knowledge 1 I think the stock inspector should know it. 2917. The research work has been done, but the difficulty is that the stock inspector is not acquainted with it ? He should know about it. It should be possible for the stock inspector to be able to tell men on the land what plants are poisonous. 2918 That has been found out by experiment and practical work elsewhere. You say that stock inspectors ought to have that knov^ledge. There should be some system by which the stock inspectpr should absorb that knowledge ? Yes. He would know it, if it were given to him. More research work is required to find out these things. 2919. That research work has been done in ninety-nine cases out of 100. Practically all poisonous plants have been discovered, but the stock inspector does not happen to have been educated up to it. I am on the Council of the Royal Agricultural Society. Many people on the land do not know what plants and weeds are poisonous. I myself did not know St. John's wort. There were a lot that I did not know. I moved in the Council of the Royal Agricultural Society that we should have a plot at the Show showing the useful grasses and the dangerous weeds. I have had the useful grasses placed there, but I have not been able to have the dangerous weeds put there. If they were put there, visitors to the Show could see them and be able to recognise them afterwards. Our stock inspectors are put through an examination, but they do not know one half of our poisonous plants. The research work that you speak of has already been done. There is no plant poisonous to stock that Mr. Maiden, Government botanist, has not identified. The knowledge is made available to the stock inspector, but he will not use it ? If one of my cows was poisoned, and I asked the stock inspector what had poisoned it, the probability is that he would not be able to tell me. I had a nice young cow that was milking well. Turned out one night she came in the next morning with her sides hollow, her eyes glaring glassily, and her udder and teats hard. She must have eaten something that had poisoned her. I asked the stock inspector if lie could tell me what It was. He said that the cow had evidently eaten something that had poisoned her, but he did not know what it was, nor could he tell me what to do with her. I immediately applied hot water to the udder, kneaded it well, and gave her a laxative. In a day or two the teats were like brown parchment. I persevered in the treatment for some days, and in about a week the skin began to peel in thin sheets^, like paper. The teats split. She kicked a lot with pain, but eventually she recovered. That cow had eaten a poisonous plant. 2920. If you have read Professor Stewart's evidence before the committee you will see that he answers you. Properly trained stock inspectors, with an adeqruate knowledge of veterinary science, could tell yo« what 171 Witness— J. R. Fulton, 25 November, 1920. ■what to do. Our stock inspectors, except in a few cases, are not trained veterinarians. The evidence is that men on the land suffer just as you have described. But the research work has been done. What you want is expert veterinarians at your service ? Yes ; we have not got them. I was for ten years managing a station in the basin of the Darling, which is flat country. Water there will run away, but the country is so flat that as soon as the local rains fall the Darling water commences to flow all over the flat, and there is no way of stopping it. Unless some system is established to turn the water at the foot hills it cannot be prevented from flooding the flats. The water should be controlled. 2921. You wartt a, proper system to control arid regulate the waters from the foot-hill ? Yes, to prevent damage from flood. There is no hope for the small settler in that part of the State unless that is done. The waters at tbe foothills must be turned so that the head waters from the Darling will not come rushing down on the flat. If it is not done it is only a matter of time when every settler there will be ruined. It is impossible to have closer settlement in that Oountry, when the water from th,e mountains are liable to rush down say one year in seven or ten and overwhelm the farms. Only .3 to 4 inches of water is sufficient to destroy 20,000 sheep because they cannot stand long in water. Water could be impounded out there as it is impounded at Burren Juck, and it would be a relief in time of drought. It would enable fresh water to be conserved in the rivers and it could be used for irrigation, 2922. You recommend a policy of decentralisation ? Yes; so that the producers in the north and north- west will not, have to send their produce so many more miles to Sydney. A railway could be constructed from Thorton to Port Stephens, where a, port should be made. Money could be ear-marked for that purpose. Sufficient money for the purpose could be subscribed in the north and north-west. 2923. When the farmers produce arrived at Port Stephens what are they going to do with it 1 There is a big harbour there. If wharves and jetties were built there, shipping firms would tumble over each other to go there. 2924. Could you bring any of them here as witnesses to say that? I think so. Common sense says that is the right thing to do with the produce of the north and north-west. 2945. There are ports on the South Coast on which a great deal of money has been spent, to which no trading steamer ever goes now. The port of Shell Harbour is not used, and at Jerringong the wharf has fallen to pieces, amd a trading ship has not been known to go in there for fifteen or twenty years. The making of a port does not mean that ships will go there. I know of no better way to assist the farmers of the north and the north-west than by giving them a port, near to themselves, and I think Port Stephens would make a very suitable one. A commission in 1910 reported that Port Stephens could be made an oversea port, and that a railway could be built to it from Thorton on the northern line for £666,000. 2926. Mr. M. J. Black.'] I understand you have had more experience in the dairying industry than you have had amongst sheep and wheat ? Yes ; I have no experience in wheat. 2927. What would you suggest -to improve the dairying industry of the State 1 Better roads, and the destruction of pests. 2928. Chairman.'\ How long have you lived in the country districts ? Practically all my life, and I am now on the shady side of 70. , 2929. Have you lived in New South Wales country districts for fifty years ? Close on, in the Riverina, Dafrfing, and DuKgog districts. 2930. You know that there is a trend of population from the country to the town ? Yes. 2931. Is thatbecause life is getting lonelier in the country and the hardship greater? The hardships are not as severe as they used to be. 2932. You live in the metropolitan area now ? Yes. 2933. For how long? About twelve months. 2934. Desj)ite the fact that haa-dships in the country are not as great as they were you have come to lire in Sydney ? Well, it is time I had a rest. 2935. Was it a hard life in the country ? I do not think I have had an easy life. The twenty years I put in on the dairy farm was the hardest life a man could have. Many times I have worked sixteen hours a day. 2936. Is it a hard life in the country ? It is a hard life. 3937. You felt it so? Yes. 2938. You have come to Sydney to have an easier life ? I have simply sold out, and have come to Sydney to have a rest. 2939. You have had enough of the hard times in the country ? I have. 2940. What is the hardness of the life in the country ? It is constant work, especially if you are dairying. There is no spell for you. 3941. You were not dairying all the time? T was fattening cattle and I had store cattle also. 2942. You were dairying and grazing? Yes. 2943. Is it not an easier life than an occupation in Sydney or the suburbs? It is a much harder life in the country. If you are dairying you have to be up early and you have to work all day. 2994. At what time in the morning would you have to be up ? At dawn. It is not such a hardship to to those who have been born and bred to it, but it is very disagreeable to sit down to work in the dairy with the sun shining ou you. 2945. It is a very healthy life ? Yes, it is. 2946. In a city occupation there is not the same necessity for such early rising and early work ? I cannot say. I suppose so. 2947. Have you had your women-folk with you in the country ? Yes, all the time. 2948. Do they prefer to live in the metropolitan area ? I daresay they do, although I think they were contented in the country. Sydney people do not understand the work in the country, and we in the same way perhaps do not understand why they are not satisfied with their life here. 2949. Is not the comparative isolation in the country somewhat of a deterent to living there ? Yes, but I do not think that is the chief one. 2950. Mr. R. J. Blmk.] From your experience in the dairying industry, can you make any suggestion to approve it ? There must be better roads in the country. The farmers are anxious to have their children better educated, but there are times when we can get no teacher at all. 172 Horace ^exander Smith, Government Statistician, recalled, and further examined:— 2951. Cha^rman^ You have prepared some statistics showing deaths of children under 1 year of ago per 1 ,000 births in various countries ? Yes. Thoy are as follow :— Infantile Mortalitt (Deaths of children under 1 year of age per 1,000 births, in various countries.) Yeir. Country. 1918 1019 1919 1919 1919 1914 1913 1919 1919 191 2 1916 1916 1917 1915 1917 ]8. Mr. h. J. Black] Your evidence shows that the rural districts are the healthiest? Yes. MONDAY, 29 NOVEMBER, 1920. The Committee met at the Court House, West Maitland, at 2 p.m. J3r£0ent: — Hon. Sik JOSEPH CAREUTHERS (in the Chair). Hon. H. E. HORNE, ] Hon. G. H. G. VARLEY, Hon. a. SINCLAIR, | Hon. S. R. INNES-NOAD. George Bloomfield Waller, grazier, farmer and dairyman, Wallarobba, sworn and examined : — 2969. Chairman.'] For how many years have you been engaged in agriculture, and at what places ? I l\.ave been engaged for about thirty years in dairying and agricultural pursuits on the Central North Coast, and I have been wheat growing at Currabubula since 1914. I am the owner of my farms. I have several holdings of various sizes on the coast, the tablelands, and north-west slopes. 2970. Have you had any education in agriculture at school, college, or elsewhere, other than in actual practice ? No. I have only practical experience. 2971. Have you ever been employed on salary or wages in agricultural work? No. 2972. In what way have you gained your knowledge of agricultural practice ? By experience and observation. 297.3. Have you a family? Yes, I have two sons, both of whom are at school. Both my boys have a desire for rural occupations, but there is a growing tendency amongst the present generation in the country to go to the towns and cities, the higher wages and less arduous work, with more time for leisure and amusement there being the attraction. 2974. Will you suggest in what ways life on farms may be made more attractive or satisfying to the families of farmers and settlers? By admitting them to a share in the stock and profits of the farm, by giving them a feeling of ownership, together with the knowledge that when they come to manhood they will not commence on scratch. That creates a keener interest in the welfare of the farm, 2975. What disadvantages, if any, do you labour under that you think may or should' reasonably engage the attention of the State so as to diminish or remove them ? Speaking broadly there is a lack of cheap and quick transit to market. I would suggest the construction from revenue of spur lines into districts suitable for dairying and agriculture, as the present system of charging the cost of construction against the railways means higher freights and fares, and a restricted service, which has the immediate effect of retarding production. Developmental railways are a public benefit as they assist production. They should, therefore, be charged to general revenue. 2976. Have you any local organisation which endeavours to secure the mutual co-operation of men on the land for the improvement of the life of the community — socially, industrially, and educationally ? Yes, we have the Primary Producers' L^nion and the Farmers and Settlers' Association. 2977. What crops do you mostly grow? Corn, sorghum, oats, barley, &c., as green feed for dairy stock. I grow wheat and oats for hay, but wheat for grain has not been grown by me for the last two years, as it was not showing a profit and had to be financed from other concerns. 2978. What is a fair crop per acre for growing and harvesting, including your own labour, seed, rent of land, and 15 per cent, of value of plant and horses used ? It varies so much from year to year that it is impossible to make a correct estimate. 2979. In a period of five years how would you describe the seasons in your district ? We have had one bad year, two average, and two good on the coast. We have had one bad, one average, and three good years on the tablelands ; and two bad. two average, and one good year on the north-west slopes. 2980. 174 Witneu—G. B. Waller, 29 November, 1920. 2980. Will you describe your system of cultivation — whether you rotate crops or fallow, or use fertilizer or lay down in pasture after a time 1 T have followed each system in diiferent localities and for different crop?, and have found them beneficial. 2981. Have you any experience with the Agricultural Bureau ? No. We have a Fai-mers and Settlers' Association. 2982. Is it not a fact that the Farmers and Settlers' Association is political 1 Yen, that has crept in of recent years. 2983. The Primary Producers' Union is practically an industrial concern 1 Yes. I know many farmers who, realising that their living depends upon the rural prosperity of the district, have joined the Farmers and Settlers' Association. The Farmers and Setilers' Association admits employees. 2984. Do not you think that an association that runs candidates against a man's party in politics would'be up against that man joining them 1 From that point of view it probably woulfl be. 298^5. To promote the mutual co-siperation of the people engaged in the agricultural industry, both employers and employees, is not the best organisation which they can join, one that sets up no barrier of class, creed, or politics 1 Undoubtedly. 2986. Such an organisation is the Agricultural Bureau which is connected with the Department of Agriculture. It exists simply for the purpose of fostering agriculture and helping those engaged im the industry to gain a useful knowledge o£ their work 1 Yes. But its operations are not well known in the country. 2987. Does any Government agricultural officer visit your district to whom you can appeal for information? I do not know of any except the frait expert who has been in the district. ^9'88. How far is your holding from the railway ? It adjoins the railway. 2989. Have you good communication With the villages or towns'! Yes. 2990. Have you ever had your soil anailysed to ascertain its constituents in the way of plant food, humus, or its capacity to retain moisture ? No. 2991. Have you the telephone ? Yes. 2992. How would you like to be without it 1 I would not be without it. You cannot carry on your business sueeessfully without the tdephone. 2993. What does it cost you ? To become connected with the local exchange, which is about seven miles away, cost me about £150. It costs me about £15 per year. Many of the farmers in this district are not so far from the exchange as I am. 2994. The telephone is a great blessing to the farmers 1 Undoubtedly, 2995. Is it not a great factor in maiking the home life of the farmer and his family more agreeable ? Yes, it is a great benefit socially as well as in business. 2996. For a little thing there i.s nothing that can do so much good? No. One's family is able to keep in touch with relatives and friends in different parts of the district. 2997. If the farmers could be connected with the telephone exchange for £5 or £6 would it not be a good investment for them ? Yes, undoubtedly. 2998. At present they are nearly all without it 1 Yes. 2999. How far are you from a doctor 1 Eleven miles. 3000. That would be a long and rough journey to make late at night ? Yes ; I have made it late at night but I can now ring up a doctor if I want him. ' 3001. Do you receive the publications of the Department of Agriculture 1 Occasionally. 3002. Why do you not get them regulariy t 1 am often away from home, and I do not get my correspond- ence regularly. I have interests in the outlying districts. 3003. Have you availed yourself of the loan of books by post on agriculture and kindred subjects from the lending branch of the Public Library, Sydney ? — No. 3004. Would you like to receive books on rural subjects? Yes, I am keenly interested in all literature 1 have plenty of literature on rural matters. 3005 Do you know that by writing to the principal librarian at the Public Library you can have sent to you books on agriculture and kindred subjects, including farm mechanics ? Yes, I know the books are there, and that they are available, but I have a good library df my own. 3006. Have you a good and sufficient water suppfy for stock and for domestic needs 1 Yes I have o-one in heavily for conserving water. ' ^ So J' hi"'* are not up against most of the hardships of the farmer? Well, I have to contend with 3008. You have some general remarks to make. Yes, as follows : The condition of primary production, more particularly that which comes n-nAt^r Hio J,o..i; c ■ -u. j dairying, is not satisfactory at present, as progress during the Lt five or s^xvZrhrnotbtr, r«^^^^^^^ agriculture and be Mn%uted to three main reasons :-let. The war, with the consequent wiSaS of man vvoSni« 1 ^™''*' 7^'^^"""^ from their ordinary occupations to participate in active service, and irregXr Se s L^L/L?.i'''f energetic fanners &c. 2nd. The drought, causing the failure Of crops and adding considerablv to the cost of tt» °{^^'PV^''Si?^'^i'i^^ dairy cows and farm horses. 3rd. The high rate of wages and other inducements ahirtlVf^tP m connection with labour from the country, and induced even farmers thelselves trthrow up Xe ai^ife »n<,^^ *^? ^.u' city, where leisure, high wages, and amusements attract those who hrve often to ednnL.t ^ *^^■ ™!'3 t°«'a"l« *he Pricc-fi..ing also has had a retarding effect upon production, as instancerby the faS off fn d^'"^ "^T^f ""^'^'^r'' many wheat-farmers having been brought almost to ruin b^ the ridiculouslv low nr i.f « /? \'^ products and wheat, unsatisfactory payments from the pooL The industry was^practica^Uy Zwn and out tiU tht .°r'7''f * '" ^^^ ^^^' T^ ^^' assistance was given. Though there is a good prospect of a bump^ harve^t^thk «P^Ln i V<^esent guarantee and other farmers' returns will be mostly mopped u| in ifquid'ating their arc"mu"ted on ^^^^4"^ XTsm/™' " ---'''.*'>« too has been seriously affected by drought, and under the most favourable condit ons win t»t! |ejv years. Dairymg, up tlie ground lost during the last few years. Owing to the high price of beef nn^n^l 'ake another season to make da ry products, many herds were cut down by the loler grade cows being soirottcZf™*r> °^ P""^^ ^^^^ ^"^ reduction was brought about by the drought greatly diminishinB the n,,mKpv.:f ™*eher8 and dealers, and a further tendency amongst flrmers, caused by rising ^gesLd d s Cbed labour^ondit oZ'n" T f"'' y'"" '^'^''° ^ '^ S^«*' accomplished by themselves and their families. Dairying by reason of or^»nV= ?' "^'^""'^ operations to what can be for its products, is on a sounder footing than any other branch of farmin^^tnT • ' "°-°Pe"-a't>on, and regular payments soon become established as one of our most valuable industries Wheat crm^^sT' ^ opportumty for extension, would by reason of its great importance to the consuming public, as well as to f KU»,,fi """1 T"^^ uncertain and risky, and special attention. It has not the benefit of the sSme organisation and colTf-^"'™i.?l*^® country, it should receive dairying, consequently methods which may often be termed " hanha^-, nl " X, • °" '^''"'n.,™™^ such solid support to har%'e3tingof thecrop, and marketing of the produce. The Department of 4aH^ H *'','i°,« "^ ^^^ «°'l. ^""''ng a""! trate on the subject of increasing primary production, which pro'mises to becoSrtt Thlerfaltor in'rlduliirtt* high""ost of 175 Witnetses- G. B. Waller and A. J. C. Vogele, 29 Nowmber, 1920. of living, and otherwise adding to the general prosperity = j 3048. Have you a good and sufficient water supply for stock and for domestic needs ? Not very ornod in a dry season. •' " 3049. Have you any general remarks to make ? I am not against having my name before the public I am well known in this district, and my advice has often been sought on different matters with which I am acquainted. If I can do anything to help the primary producer I shall be amply repaid. I ha-e never gSred it tm others, Irverif^gT" '''^ *'" ' '^'^ ^^-"- ' ^^^ ^^^P'^ ^"^^^ '^ - - ^ have Patrick 177 Patrick McDonnell, farmer and dairyman, Woodville, sworn and examined : — ■ 3050. Chairman.] For how long have you been engaged in agriculture, and at what places 1 Thirty-five years at Woodville. I am the owner of part and lessee of part of my property. 3051. "What is the area of your holding? 2i0 acres. 3052. Have you had any education in agriculture at school, college, or elsewhere other than in actual practice ? No. 3053. Have you ever been employed on salary or wages in agricultural work 1 No. 3054. In what way have you gained your knowledge of agricultural practice ? I have thirty-five years' experience. I have had to make a living and support my family on the land. 3055. How many have you in your family 1 Five. 3056. Will you tell the Committee if there is a desire or tendency amongst your family as they grow up to remain in the country or to go to the city or town. It will be helpful to the Committee if you will express your views from experience as to what influences the young people in such a desire ? My family are all on the land, so far. My experience with regard to young men going off the land is that they do so because of a feeling of want of security caused by the Government fixing prices and declaring wages, &c . 3057. Will you suggest in what ways life on farms may be made more attractive and satisfying to the families of farmers and settlers? By not subjecting them to so much Government interference in regard to produce prices, the standard to which they must run their cream, and various other things. 3058. What disadvantages, if any, do you labour under that you think may or should reasonably engage the attention of the State, so as to diminish or remove them ? The farmers want co-operation in marketing their produce, as the agent often gets as much profit as the farmer. I would suggest that the Government assist in bringing about co-operation between .the producer and the consumer. The Government should controlthe export of broom millett. To-day farmers cannot sell it. If we send it to Sydney it may lie there for three months, as my own did last year, because the people in charge were trying to establish a co-operative broom factory. We want to sell our millet so that we can get our money for it. That is the sort of thing which frightens the young man against farming. We also ask that we be allowed to run our cream to a certain standard. The young man on the land sees all these difficulties lurking in the distance, and he does not know what farming is coming to. 3059. If a mistake is made in connection with millet, they think a mistake may be made in regard to other things ? Yes. 3060. Have you any local organisation which endeavours to secure the mutual co-operation of men on the land for the improvement of the life of the community socially, industrially, and educationally 1 We have a branch of the Farmers and Settlers' Association. 3061. What varieties of crops do you grow? Potatoes, broom millet, maize, and lucerne. 3062. What is a fair cost per acre for growing and harvesting, including your own labour, seed, rent of land, and 15 per cent, of value of plant and horses used ? Potatoes, £18 ; millet, £15 ; and maize, £14. 3063.' What farm implements and machinery do you use, and what do they represent in cost prices on you> farm ? Three ploughs, one harrow, two rollers, mowing machine, hay rake, two drays, two vans, tw waggons, and cultivator, &c. 3054. What are fair average yields of each crop on your holding? Potatoes, 2 tons per acre ; millet, ^ton per acre ; maize, 40 bushels per acre. In a period of five years the seasons have been good for the farmer in this district. 3065. What is your system of cultivation ? Rotation of crops. 3066. You believe in the system of co-operation? Yes. 3067. You farmers have very little of it? Yes. In a by-street in Sydney I saw four milk carts pass the same spot in half an hour. With proper co-operation one cart should do the work of the whole four much more cheaply and better. I advocate co-operation between the producer and the consumer, and I would cut out the middle man, who is making the profit. 3068. You cannot have co-operation without good organisation ? That is so. But I think if the farmers sent their produce away and the consumers handled it at the other end the results would be very much better. The Government should bring about co-operation between the producer and the consumer. We tried to start a co-operative broom factory, but we received a lot of opposition from the proprietary concerns. If we had Government assistance to prevent that sort of thing it would be easier for the farmer to arrange co-operation. 3069. Who opposed it ? I do not like to mention names. 3070. Not the Government ? No, the proprietary broom factories. 3071. You have a branch of the Farmers and Settlers' Association here ? Yea. 3072. And a branch of the Agricultural Bureau ? No. 3073. The Agricultural Bureau is fostered by the Department of Agriculture, and it gives you expert advice. The Department sends out lecturers to educate the farmers by demonstration and field work, and reports are published in the Agricultural Gazette ? Yes. I have taken the Agricultural Gazette for years. 3074. Is not that a good institution for your farm ? Yes. 3075. Should not every district have an Agricultural Bureau. There are at least 6,000 in the United States, with thousands of members. The United States Farm Bureau system is becoming one of the biggest institutions in the world ? Yes, it is a good idea. 3076. You grow potatoes, broom millet, maize and lucerne ? Yes. Seed is a big item, and labour has cost 10s. a day. 3077. ^Jr. Home.] Are you able to get labour here now ? We cannot get it for 10s. a day. 3078. You cultivate on the rotation system ? Yes. I have used guano and bone-dust for potatoes. 3079. Have you ever had your soil analysed? No. 3080. You do not know its constituents? Only from practical experience. 3081. Do you know that you are like a man groping in the dark. You buy guano or fertiliser, yet you do not know if that is what your soil requires. You cannot know until your koi\ is analysed ? Yes, the first thing to find out is what sort of manure you require. ■, • , 3082. Is there any Government officer who comes to your district to whom you can appeal for advice? There is the fruit expert, but he does not interest me, as I do not grow fruit. 3083. You badly need such a Government officer Yes. 3084. f 6325— Z 178 Witness— p. McDonnell and E. J. Dann, 29 November, 1920. 3084. The Agricultural Bureau is the first step towards getting them. It would cost you nothing. Any farmer can ioin in without distinction of class or creed ? Yea. ,r -.i i j u i. u. 3085 How far is your holding from the nearest village or town ? 6 miles from Maitland and about the same distance from Paterson. 3086. Have you good communication ? Yes, we have a good road. ■,,. ^, i, , -i 308,: Have you the telephone ? No, not from my house, but I can use a public telephone i mile away. It is not a very good one. „ . . ,. „ o i- 3088. Do you receive the publications of the Department of Agriculture 1 Sometimes. 3089. Why not always 1 They do not always come regularly. 3090. Some one else gets them ? Perhaps. j , • j j „ u: „4.„ * „ 3091. Have you availed yourself of the loan of books by post on agriculture and kindred Subjects from the lending branch of the PubUc Library ? No ; I did not know that I could got them. 3092. Read the evidence given before the Committee by Mr. Ifould, Principle Librarian. You will then see what you can get from the library ? Yes, 1 will do that. 3093. Have you any books on farming or veterinary science 1 Yea, I have a lot ot books. 3094. Have you a good water supply ? Yes, I am on the bank of the river. „ . . ,. , 3095. Mr. Innes-Noad.l Do you believe that young people are leaving the land because of interference by the Government with their freedom? Yes. The young man on the land sees that his security may be interfered with. On my place I have two sons and I employ three men. They are afraid to venture out because they hardly know where they are. They get good wages, but the man who has hved all ins lite in the country does not know of the pleasures of the town. 3096. There is a fair amount of amusement in the country 1 Yea, including cricket and tpotball. 3097. Mr. Sinclair.] Do you find that the drift to the city is more marked than it was years ago? Yes. 3098. You attribute that increase in the drift to the city to Government interference with prices and other things? Yes. I do not think it is really a matter of money or wages or ot amusement. I think it is because they are losing confidence. If the young man of to-day had the confidence that we had, and was left alone, he would be more agreeable to remain on the land. 3099. Is there plenty of land available in this district for young men to settle on ? Not in this iminerliate district, perhaps, but they can always get land. ' 3100. Chairman.'] You are not without the social amenities of life ? No. 3101. People further back endure greater hardships than you do ? Yes. 3102. Do you ever come into the Union markets at West Maitland ? Yes. 3103. Are they a good thing ? To a certain extent they are. 3104. Are they run on co-operation lines between the buyer and the seller 1 No, the consumer does not buy there. 3105. Who does? The middle man generally. 3106. The consumer can buy there if he wants to ? He is at work. He does not buy much there. Edward Joseph Dann, secretary, Agricultural Asaociation, Newcastle, sworn and examined : — 3107. 0?uiirman.] Will you make a statement? Yes ; I desire to emphasise the importance of agricultural shows being used to a greater extent for general propaganda work in order to localise agricultural education and development. I have experience as a judge, exhibitor, committee man, steward, and also an secretary of the Blayney, Singleton, and Newcastle Societies. The difficulty about most agricultural shows is that they are a sort of glorified social occasion, and they are run in a " higgledy-piggledy " sort of manner. I pointed out that years ago to the late Mr. Tretie, when Minister for Agriculture. Many of our show.s arc run in that way. I suggest that the Agriculture Department should, in addition to developing tlio system which was commenced some years ago, and which still obtains, of sending instructors out, do something in the way of afifording advice to shows, so that when farmers desire to change from one district to another and want information about it, they could obtain it from experts who know the various districts This district grows crops like broom millet. People wishing to go to such a district would then bo referred to it just as they are now referred to the wheat, potato, and wool districts. The Department of Agriculture should attend to that work through the agricultural societies. 3108. If the agricultural societies will not do it, the Department should do it some other way?' Yes; through the bureaux. 3109. Do you not think the Agricultural Societies are too much show societies — that they mostly run the show for three days and go to sleep for 362 days ? No, I do not think they go to sleep. They cncourai^c lectures on special subjects. I think many of them specialise in giving children an interest in agriculture. 3110. Do you give special prizes to the children? Yes. 3111. Very few societies do ? We do not give them to the individual child as yet, but we give them to the schools. 3112. Would it not be a good thing to have prize competitions amongst children for vegetable growing? Yes ; our difficulty is that we liold our show immediately after the midsummer holidays. 3113. The vegetables could be grown at their homes? As a rule they arc not easily obtainable in February. 3114. I would make a shot at it. Wherever they have a water supply they can grow something. In America they have their children's corn clubs and they give prizes for say, potatoes, grown by lads under 1 4 years of age. February would be a good month for harvesting pota.toes. I am harvesting potatoes in my vegetable plot now? Yes. The Department of Agriculture can assist the agricultural societies in connection with their book-keeping. Many secretaries are not experienced as to making entries and cataloguing. It would not be difficult for the Agricultural Department to issue a series ol suggestions. We exchange ideas as much as possible. I got a good many ideas from Wagga and other shows, and I was able to give them some good ones. I think with very little trouble the Agricultural Department could obtain and circulate some very useful information in regard to the running of our shows to the best advantage. There is a movement to bring all shows under advice and partial control of District Councils consisting 179 Witnesses— IE,. J. Daun and W. M. MoMuUen, 29 November, 1920. consisting of representatives from each show— with a Central Council in Sydney which, it is suggested by some Agricultural Societies, might be the Council of the Royal Agricultural Society. The general idea is well received, but many shows are dubious about placine too much power in the hands of the Royal Agricultural Society. This may be partly prejudice, but the feeling exists — no matter what may be the justification for it. In my view, a much more acceptable jiosition would be created if the Department of Agriculture were to ascertain the aims and working of the more important shows, collate and circulate the most valuable part of the information and impart instruction to all the shows by means of a suitable oflScer well versed in show work. By such means only can the shows of the State, in my opinion, be made a part of the necessary machinery for displaying the agricultural possibilities in each district. Then, when the farmer or immigrant, desiring information on any particular branch of primary pioduction applies to the department, he can be sent direct to the proper district and obtain knowledge and ocular demonstration at first hand. Of course, some Central board of Control or information should be established for the betterment of show activities. William Malcolm McMullen, farmer, Phoenix Park, Morpeth, sworn, and examined i — 3115. Chairman.] How long have you been engaged in agriculture, and at what jjlace-s? Fifty-eight years. As a youth I spent twenty years at Branxton, thirty years at growing sugar-cane on the Richmuud River, two years dairying on the Bellinger River, and two and a quarter years at Morpeth. 3116. Are you the owner of your holding ? Yes. 3117. About what area is your land 1 Forty acres. 3118. Have you had any education in agriculture other than in actual practice? No. 3119. Have you ever been employed on wages or salary in agricultural work? No. 3120. In what way have you gained your knowledge of agricultural practice ? By hard graft — Scotch navigation. By experience a farmer becomes a practical man if he is a thinker and a reader. Otherwise it is a case of the survival of the fittest. The farmer of the future will have to be a thinker and a reader, but the State must help him in providing irrigation works, water conservation^ and for the testing of seeds and plants at reasonable cost. My family consists of my wife, a boy, and two girls, who arc at home, 3121. Are any of your family working on your holding? All of them. 3122. Is there a desire or tendency in your family as they grow up to remain in the country, oi- to go to the city or the town ? It will be helpful to the Committee if you will express your views from your experience as to what influences young people in such a desire ? If a fair deal is given them thoy have no desire to leave farming, but the fact that higher wages are fixed by law near Sydney, with less work and shorter hours, does undermine the desire for farm work — considering the bad seasons, rough roads, delays in transit in cases, and previous year's crops having been destroyed to make room for new crops. The fixing of the basic wage and price-fixing is of very doubtful advantage to any industry, but if one is attempted the other must go on with it, to be on a sound footing. Otherwise it is like the State attempt- ing to drain the ocean. The old-age pension and the baby bonus are a form of State spoon-feeding, and have robbed many of their independence and thrift. The continuance of such schemes will result in chaos, and will eventually crash. 3123. Will you suggest in what ways life on farms can be made more attractive or .satisfying to the families of farmers and settlers ? It is a very hard question to answer. If the State goes in for spoon-feeding in such matters, it may eventually do more harm than good. 3124. What disadvantages, if any, do you labour under, that you think may or should reasonably engage the attention of the State, so as to diminish or remove them ? The fact that there is no bank to whom farmers can apply to tide them over bad periods is one. 3125. You want a system of rural finance? Yes. We have had a drought since last March. , We have had practically no income since then. We want a system of financial help which will help us over such times. 3126. You would be willing to pay for accommodation if there was some system under which you could get it ? Yes, without us seeming to beg. 3127. Have you £in agricultural bureau in the district? I think there is one at Miller's Forest, 7 miles down the river. 3128. Have you any other local organisation which endeavours to secure the mutual co-operation of men on t^i© XaiVii fw the improvement of the life of the community socially, industrially, and educationally ? I dp not know of any except the Primary Producers' Union. 3129. What crops do you mostly grow, and what is your experience with them? Potatoes, oaten hay, broom millet, and lucerne hay. Maize crops were planted during the last two seasons, but through drought they had to be sold as feed for stock. 3130. What is a fair cost per acre for growing and harvesting, including you own labour, seed, rent of land and 15 per cent, of value of plant and horses used ? Two ploughings cost 50s. per acre ; disc harrow (two), 25s. ; harrowing, 10s. per acre ; rolling, 5s. per acre; potatoes and maize, after working four or five times, 10s. per acre ; harvesting potatoes, 50s. per acre (4' tons) ; 15s. per acre for pulling, husking, threshing and bagging. Without bags, the cost would be 12s. per acre by machinery. Summarising my figures, oats cost me £11 6s. per acre to harvest; maize, £7 12s. per acre ; a 4-ton crop of pota,toes, £17 per acre; millet, £11 per acre ; a 5-ton crop of lucerne, £13 10s. per acre; 2 to 3 tons is about the average. The cost of bags for maize and potatoes and of seed is extra. Millet takes the same working as maize, the harvesting cost being about £5 per acre. Lucerne also requires the same work as the other crops, and seed at 2s. 9d. per lb. cost 38s. 6d. for 14 lb. to the acre. Harrowing and rolling after planting costs 10s. per acre; harvesting eleven cuts per year, mowing same at 18s. per acre per year, and rdking and carting, 42s. per acre per yea? ; pressing, 12s. per ton ; battens and wire, 3s. extra ; crops per year average 5 tons per acre ; cartage to wharf, 3s. per ton ; freight to Sydney, about 5s. 8d. per bale, and quantity about four bsiles to the ton. Cartage to truck costs 3s. per ton, and loading, 5s. per ton. Railway freight is less than steamer freight. The same rates apply for potatoes and maize as for hay. Seed, 2 J bushels per acre, costs 5s. 8d. per bushel or 13s. per acre ; harvesting, for reaper and binder, 10s. pei; acre; twine, 7s. per acre ; carting and stacking, 15s. per acre; chaflSng, five hands at 8s., and benzine, &0., about 508. per acre; bags, lis. per dozen — fifty dozen bags used — fivedt)zen bags to the acre required; carting and trucking, 16s. to the acre. 3131, i8he tendency for young people on the land to leave it for a life in the town? I should say the reason is because of the higher wages, shorter hours, and the greater amuse- ment m the city, ° ".muoc 3157 What disadvantages, if any, do you labour under that you think may or should reasonably engage the attention of the State so as to dimmish or remove them ? We have one great disadvantagi in our postal arrangements. We get only three deliveries a week. If a letter is posted in West Maitland on a Saturday after 8 a.m. we do not receive it until Tuesday morning, and if a telegram is delivered to us it costs 5s., urgent or not, ° '^ "° '■" Sr teXsSrCoStTee" *" '^ '^'" "^*' ""''''' *° *^"^ "^^^^^^^ ' ^ ^ -"-S ^ 1-- the 3159, 181 „._. ir«BeMe«—H, A. C. Noble, and M. Scobie, 29 November, 1920. lfln^,^ f« fi!® =^°'^ ^^^ *°°*^ organisation which endeavours to secure the mutual co-operation oE men on the S160 Wh f ''"P-T'"^?* °^ *^^ "*® °^ ^^"^ community socially, industrially, and educationally ? No. lucfirnn^ varieties o£ crops do you mostly frrow, and what is vour experience with them ? I grew UrW T°' ^^''^^^y J^i°g. «i»all Hogan), planter's friend, amber cane, sorghum, Soudan grass, oats, 3161 WkV'"™^*''^^' '"■°P^ *^° '"'^'^ '" "'"' district when the seasons are favourable. InnH „ ^ iV^ * fair cost per acre for growing and harvesting, including your own labour, seed, rent of ^^C A P^"" °^"*- °^ ^^^"^ °^ Pl'^'^"^ '^"d '^°'''^^s "«ed? Lucerne, £14 per acre ; corn £9 10s. per acre : sorglium, £8 per acre. » r j r j 3162. What farm implements and macLinery do you use and what do they represent in cost price? I htrri *i ^T'^fx machine, hay rake, corn sheller, horse-power chaff-cutter, spring cultivator, disc plough, vXe of°£^^20 '■°'^' ''°^^®'"' '^^"^ planter, (hoise) hay dray, van, separator, and milk cooler, of the total 3163. What are your average yields? Lucerne, 18 cwt. per acre per cut— average 6 cuts: corn. 65 °"^°els per acre ; sorghum, cut green, 10 tons per acre. 6iei. In a period of five years how would you describe the seasons. What proportions have been good •^TfiT WW • ^ "^""^"^ '^y """^ 8°°^^ y*'^'' - ^*''* ye'^f^' ■''^'^ 3 bad years 61130. What is your system of cultivation ; do you rotate crops, or fallow, use fertiliser or lay down in pasture after a time 1 I rotate crops as much as possible, with the exception of sorghum, which I have always grown on the same land, with the result that it grew as well last year as it did ten years ago. I do not fallow. ■' j e> •3166. Have you ever had your soil analysed ? No. 3167. Do you know what its constituents are in the way of plant food, liumus, or its capacity to retain moisture. No ? ^ i > > r j 3168. Is there any Government officer or other person with knowledge available in your district to whom you can appeal for advice on your agricultural work 1 Not in agriculture, but there is in the dairying industry. 3169. How far is your holding from the nearest village, town, railway station, or port? I am 4i miles from West Maitland. 3170. What sort of communication have yon with West Maitland ? Goo-i. 3171. Plave you the telephone ? No. 3172. Would you have it if the cost wore rea'^onable 1 Yes, I would. 3173. Have you availed yourself of the loan of books on agriculture and kindred subjects by post from the Lending Branch of the Public Library ? No, I used to get them, but I have not had them for some years. I left the district for a few months and I did not send them my address. 3171. Have you any books on farming, veterinary work, farm mechanics, or other subjects to help vou to gain up-to-date information on the industry you are engaged in ? Yes. 3175. Have you a good and sufficient water supply for stock and for domestic needs ? Y''es. 3176. Have you any general remarks to make ? To grow lucerne cost me £14 per acre for the first year. The cost the following year would not bo so high, as the ground has not to be prepared, nor has seed to be bought. Other crops, being annuals, cost the same to grow each year. I have no family, but I am one of a family of six boys. The reason why young fellows want to go to the city is because they can get higher wages there, shorter hours, and more time for amusement. The father of a family of boys cannot afford to pay the high wages which are now the rule, when his products from the land are to-day the cheapest on the market. He has to pay for everything he buys and the cost of machinery has doubled. Michael Scobie, Orchardist and Apiarist, The Gardens, West Maitland, sworn and examined : — 3177. Chairman]. You are president of the Beekeeper's Association? — Yes. I was brought up on The Gardens and have been there practically all my life. My age is 59 years. 3178. Are you the owner of your present holding? — Part owuer. 3179. About what area is your present holding? — About 95 acres. 3180. Have you had any education in agriculture at school or elsewhere other than in actual practice ? — No. 3181. Have you ever been employed on salary or wages in agricultural work? — No. 3182. In what way have you gained your knowledge of agricultural practice ? — By working on the property and by reading. 3183. Have you any family? — Yea, five, all over 21 years of age. 3184. Are any of your family working on your holding? — Yes. 3185. Is there a desire or tendency on the part of your family to remain in the country or to go to the city or the town ? One wants to take up architectural work. The other three sons intend to remain on the land. My son who intends to take up architecture has ability as a draftsman. 3186. Will you suggest in what way life on farms may be made more attractive or satisfying to the families of farmers and settlers ? As we farmers live so close to town our families do not labour under the same disabilities as other farmers who are further removed from the towns. 3187. Have you any local organisation which endeavours to procure the mutual co-operation of men on the land for the improvement of the life of the community socially, industrially, and educationally ? Our local Agricultural and Horticultural Association is supposed to be for that purpose, but beyond an annual show and occasional other functions, like all other such bodies, it does little. 3188. What crops do you mostly grow? As president of the N.S.W. Apiarists' Association, and as my brother, who is associated with me in working The Gardens, is to give evidence as regards the orchard vineyard, &c., I wish to confine myself to apiculture, and would prefer to reply only to such questions as have a bearing on that subject. 3189. Are you a member of the Agricultural and Horticultural Association? I have been on the committee up to this year. 3190. Is there a branch of the Agriculture Bureau in this district? No. 3191. This district is the headquarters of the New South Wales Apiarists' Association ? Yes. 3192. Is there any Government Officer or other person with knowledge available in your district to whom you can appeal for advice on your agricultural work ? There is no Government Officer, but some members of the New South Wales Apiarists' Association are well up in practical apiculture, and are willing to give information to others, 3193. 182 Witn^ssea—M. Soobie, and T. H. Pearse, 29 November, 1920 3193. You have some general remarks to make? I want to say that the last two seasons and the present one as far as it has gone have been disastrous to the apiculture industry. It is estimated that in the State there are fully 80 per cent, less bees than there were at the end of the bumper seasons 1917-18. Reports show that the results from the present season are still bad on the whole. Only a few locahties give good reports. It is possible that with a general rainfall nectar secretions will become general, as in many districts there is no scarcity of bloom on which, under normal conditions, bees do well. Nectar secretion is one of the many obscure problems in bee-keeping which deserves the attention of a specially trained bee-keeping scientist. At the last meeting of the New South Wales Apiculturists' Association a resolution was passed that the Federal Government nominate and train a cadet in practical apiculture and apicultural biology, so that he can qualify to investigate obscure problems in bee-keeping, including nectar secretion, diseases of bees, artificial substitutes for pollen, the effect of fermented vegetable and fruit juices on bee life when used as food in time of scarcity, and vegetable diseases in respect to bees. Pending the training of the cadet the best available bee scientist should be appointed to do the work. It is considered that a highly qualified Federal officer could carry on the work bettor thap various State men, as the problems confronting the apiarist are similar throughout Australia. The principal source of production of honey is from the eucalyptus. The Federal Government in the United States maintains a large, highly qualified and well-equipped stafi' for the study of apiculture and many of the States supple- ment the work by maintaing a State staff as well. The result is that the United States is the great honey-producing country of the world. Our Bee Diseases Act is fairly effective, but it needs amendment to prevent the exposure to bees of honey-containers from which the contents have, not been entirely removed, as that provides a medium for the dissemination of disease. Considering the few inspectors appointed under the Act good work has been done, and though bad seasons prevail, disease only shows itself in a few districts. Apiarists have to thank the present Government for making the same concessions in regard to removal to fresh country by rail of starving bee stock as other stock, but so far very few have been able to avail themselves of that facility as few apiarists know where to find a suitable place. To help in the matter the Agricultural Department has issued reports as to where bee forage can be found and the few bee-keepers who have sufficient stock left to make the expense and trouble worth while may be able to take advantage of information and concession in freight. As to freights by rail the New South Wales Apiculturists' Association has a committee to' report on freight on bees in Victoria and New South Wales. It is said that our railway freight on bees is much in excess of the Victorian rate. The New South Wales Apiculturists' Association has asked for the assistance of a botanist at a field day on the occasion of the Annual Meeting, but the reply has been that no qualified man was available. As such confusion exists with regard to nomenclature of our eucalyptus and acacia it is desirable that a botanist's services should be made available to dispel that doubt. The giving of one common name to the same variety of gum tree, whether it grows in Tasmania, Queensland, or New South Wales, is important. In regard to removing bees to fresh localities, the vexed question arises of intruding on the domain of an established apiary already utilising the honey resources of the neighbourhood. Everyone now can put as many hives as he likes on his own property, even if it damages the bee-keeper already there, and gives him no benefit. 3194. Is the bee-farming industry a paying one? Not during the last few years. Many of the bee keepers have lost their stock. 3195. Bee-keeping is more of an adjunct to farm life? It is generally carried on in that way, but there are a number of men who make apiculture their sole business. There are probably fifty apiculturists in N.S.W. who make apiculture their main business, while others devote their attention to rearing and supplying queen bees. Many go in for bees not alone for the money to be made out of thein, but because they fertilize the fruit blossoms. Bee-keeping is coming to be looked upon as a necessary adjunct to fruit-growing. 3196. Is there a good local market for honey? Yes, and an export trade. 3197. You can always dispose of a small quantity locally 1 Yes, there is a large demand for good honey. 3198. Mr. Home.] Do you know that a number of cherry crops in the Orange district have failed because the bees have apparently died out there ? Yes. It has been urged in Western Australia that bush bees should be protected so that they can propagate. Instead of increasing, however, I think they are going back. I refer to the robbing of their nests in the bush. 3199. Chairman.] From some cause bees are few in number? Yes. There has been any amount of blossom. The normal life of a bee is six weeks in the busy time, but it may be six months ip comparative quiescence. Thomas Henry Pearse, Dairy Farmer, Prospect, Hinton, sworn and examined :— 3200. Chavrman.] How long have you been engaged in dairy-farming?— Thirty years at Prospect, Hinton I am the owner of my holding, which comprises 480 acres. I have had no education in agriculture at school or elsewhere other than in actual practice. I have never been employed on salary or wacres in agricultural work. I have gained my knowledge of agricultural practice by practical experience and the study of works on agriculture, issued by the Governments of this country and of America. I have three in my family, none of whom are working on my holding. 3201. Will you tell the Committee if there has been a desire or tendency on the part of your family as they grew up to remain in the country or to go to the city or the town ?~Farm life is in a manner .spasmodic, because of the influence of floods and droughts. No regular and permanent return for our labour IS assured. We are sure of no permanent or regular daily wage which workers in commercial and trade concerns can look forward to. The easier life, time for recreation, and higher wages in the towns IS the reason why young people on the land are attracted to tbem. 3202 Will you suggest in what ways life on farms can be made more attractive or satisfying to the faunhes of farmers and settlers ?-Take your children into your confidence and give them an equitable share m the working and management of the farm, and increase the share as returns improve I would introduce modern machinery and avoid child labour as much as possible I would give them regular hours for the)r daily duties with ample time off on completion of their work. I would give them soctal life and ^9nf wv, T°.°^1 f neighbours. Let each family become a co-operative company on its own. 3203 What dLsad vantages if any, do you labour under that you think may reasonably engage the light Hneslfranwr '" ''" "' '"'""''^ *^''™' ^^ ^^""^ ^""^^ conservation, irrigatioS, and 3204. 183 Witnesaei—T. H. Pearse and J. T. Mudd, 29 November, 1920. 3204. Can you suggest any action to be taken in regard to these matters 1 Yes, the conservation of all waters above navigation on our coastal rivers for irrigation purposes, where in many cases electric power can be provided. We should also take preventive measures against floods. 3205. Have you any local organisation which endeavours to secure the mutual co-operation of men on the land for the improvement of the life of the community socially, industrially, and educationally 1 No. 3206. What crops do you mostly crow ? Luc«rne, maize, millet, sorghum, and Soudan grasS. it costs me to grow and harvest from £3 to £4 per acre, according to crop. My farm implements and machinery consist of an oil engine, milking machines, silctioti gas separators, disc and hand plough, harrows, cultivators, saed sowers, mowing machines, hay rakes, hay press, horse gear, winnowers, arid millet hackler, of the total value of £946. 3207. What are fair average yields of each crop on your holding? Maize, 60 bushels to the acre; millet, 8 cwt. to the acre ; lucerne, 1 ton to the acre per cut (five or six cuts per year). 3208. In a period of five years how would you describe the seasons in your district. What has Ijeen the proportion of good seasons to bad ones ? I would Say three years good, and two years bad. 3309. What IS your system of cultivation 1 I first cultivate for millet and sorghum. I then grow lucerrle, and then maize. I never fallow. My systeim is rotation of crops, without manure. 3210. Have you ever had your soil analysed? One portion only. It is a sandy loam. 3211. Is thete any Government officer or other per,«on with knowledge available in youf district to whom you can appeal for advice on your agricultural work ? No. 3212. How far is your holding from the nearest village, town, railway, or port? It adjoins the village of Hinton. I am 2| miles from Morpeth and the railway station. 3213. What sort of communication have you ? A mile and a quarter of the road which I use is very indifferent. 3214. Have you the telephone? Yes. 3215. Do you receive the publications of the Department of Agriculture ? Yes. 3216. Have yo"u availed yourself of the loan of books, by post, on agriculture and kindred subjects from the lending branch of the Public Library ? Yes. 3217. Have you any books on farming, veterinary work, farm mechanics, or other subjects, to help you to gain up-to-date information on the industry you are engaged in ? Yes. 3218. Have you a gOod and sufficient water supply for stock and domestic needs. A fairly good supply. 3219. It seems to me you are in a gdod position. Whdit more do you want? Less taxation. In my district there are areas of land within a radius of 10 to 40 miles Of the maiti railway thstt will gro\v ^ilmost anything in the ■^itj of fruit, vegetables, and farm produce, but owing to cost of transit it does not pay to cultivate those crops. Light lines of railway to feed the main lines would add to the earning 'capacity . of the railways, besides lncrea.sing production. 3220. Mr. Innes-Noad.'] What does the telephone cost you ? £3 10s. a year. My line is 2| miles long. The Government put up the poles and I had to pay for two years in advance, and to guarariteie pjiyment for five years. There is country on the Upper Paterson and Gresford Rivers which gi-ow all kinds of fruits otiltivated in Australia. The elevation extends to 5,000 feet. The Gresford people have agitated for a light railway, and with it that country would accommodate settlers in galore. My soni-in-law has grown potatoes in that district which have topped the Newcastle market. Fruit and vegetables which bring the highest prices in the market are grown in that district. Even the old tram motors wduld be useful to develop that country. 3221. How high do yott say that district is? It is about 600 feet at Gresford, but it increases on to the tableland to 5,000 feet, with good volcanic soil. We have been in the habit of sending our pigs to Sydney for WedneiSday's market, but because of the recent award for the workers on the Hunter River Steam Navigation Co. the droghers have been withdrawn, and now when we want to send pigs to Sydney wo have to take them to Raymond Terrace or ship them at Morpeth on Saturdays, when they have to be fed in Sydney until Wednesday. The company will not pay the award to the drogher workers, so they have taken the steamer off. Wherever railways are constructed they always seem to miss passing through the rich agricultural land. With regard to machinery and child labour, I am milking over 100 cows and I will have nobody in my dairy after 5 o'closk in the afternoon. By that time everything must be washed up and put away. We start early and finish early. 3222. Mr. Sinclair.^ Why was the steamer taken off? Because of the droghers' award, which meant that tlio drogher men had to get the same rate of pay as the sea-going men. John Thomas Mudd, dairy farmer, Oakhampton, near West Maitland, sworn and examined : — 3223. Chairman]. You are dairying ? Yes; I support what has been said here to-day, especially what Mr. Pearse has said in regard to dairying. Besides dairying I go in for agriculture and fruit-growing. I advocate the construction of light lines of railway which will become feeders to the main line. I want to say something about the necessity for the inspection of our consignments of produce to the Sydney markets. We cannot get our own weights back from the agents. There is always a shortage in weight, although 90 per cent, of the farmers consign their produce by the railway weights from the local railway station. Generally there is a shortage on a 6-ton truck of from 4 to 6 cwt. 3224. It would not lose that weight itself ? I do not think it possible, 3225. Do not you receive a check when you put it on the truck at Maitland? Yes ; I have written to the agent in Sydney who sends me back the weighbridge ticket, which corresponds to their weight, 3226. You say that the weighbridge ticket at the Sydney end shows 4 cwt. to 6 cwt. less than it does at the Maitland end ? Yes. 3227. Have you ever tackled the Railway Department about it? The local salesman at the markets has. We also find that there is a shortage in produce sold by the dozen, such as pumpkins and melons, in Sydney. We cannot find out where the leakage is. I -vVould suggest that the Government appoint a man to look into the matter at the other end. On hay the agents charge us 3s. per ton on cartage. I contend that the buyer should pay that cartage. The .same thing applies to the sale of pigs in the local saieyard. We had a condemned pig fund but it was struck oflf because it did not work. If the buyer knew he w£^s fating the rist te would buy accordingly. I think the man who buys at the railway should be responsible for the cartage. We have no check to show us whether we are overcharged or not. 3228 Have 184 WUnesses—3. T. Mudd and D. Ferry, 29 November, 1920. 3228. Chairman.] You can pay a rate on the railway to send the goods at the Commissioners' risk, you tried that 1 That is excessive. 3229. It is 5 per cent, additional on the ordinary rate. If the rate is 20s. you pay 21s., and your con- signment is insured ? Yes ; but as the railways belong to the people the people should have the use of them with proper care. 3230. You are not the only man who has suffered in that way. I have suffered from it, but I paid the insurance rate ? Yes, I understand there are two rates, the consignors' rate, and the Commissioners' rate for insurance. Daniel Ferry, dairy-farmer, Woodville, sworn and examined : — 3231. Chairman.] Will you make a statement to the Committee? In my opinion further inquiry should be made into the matter of the distribution of dairy produce. I have had a lot to do with this business, and studied it well. If there were better distribution of dairy produce the consumers would get it much cheaper. The dairyman who finds the land, cows, machinery, and labour, and who works long hours, only gets about one-half what his produce is worth to him. There is something wrong in the system. A system of co-operation would improve matters. It would enable the grower to get a better return for his outlay and labour. Probably the present method of handling is at fault. 3232. A witness has stated here that he saw three milk carts delivering milk in a street in Sydney, where one milk cart could have done it cheaper and quicker. If it were done with one milk cart, does it not follow that the consumer would get his milk cheaper, and the producer would benefit also? Yes. There is a system of co-operation in !New Zealand where there is no overlapping. The milk is delivered on the block system, in connection with which the one milk cart delivers only in a certain area. The producer gets a fair price for his produce, and the consumer gets the milk cheaper. The profit that goes to the middleman to-day could well be distributed amongst the consumers. 3233. Mr. Innes-Noad.] Have you any idea of the price paid for milk in New Zealand? I have heard that it is much less than it is here. 3234. Chairman.] A system of co-operation has been suggested ? Yes ; that is what we want. 3235. The evidence here shows that you farmers have hardly made a commencement with co-operation. The first thing to do is to get the farmers together. Do it through the Agricultural Bureau. While admitting the great value of other institutions, the moment political and industrial matters creep into them, men who ought to join them are shut out. It is not so in connection with the Agricultural Bureau, which is open to all, and knows no class or politics ? Yes. 3236. Mr. Varley.] Is there a local committee to look after the producers ? I think so. 3237. Chairman.] You require to create the co-operative spirit amongst yourselves? Yes, the true co-operative spirit, 3238. Mr. Varley.] You have allowed the local butter factory to close ? — We have a factory at Morpeth and there is one at Raymond Terrace. If the farmers would co-operate and help themselves we should not have so much trouble. 3239. Chairman]. Do you know of any legislation in this State on co-operation ? — No. 3240. As the result of legislation in Canada they have co-operation in the rural industries and they have no trouble. You want the community spirit, the outcome of which will be the co-operative spirit 1 — Yes, we do. 3241 . Mr. Varley]. What quantity of milk produced in this district goes to Newcastle and Sydney as milk?— We send about 20,000 gallons away from our factory in good times. I am connected with both factories. 3242. How often do you send it away ?— We send away about two trucks a day in a good time. The Sing.'eton factory and two others at Dungog also send milk away. 3243. How much would there be in a truck ? — About 1,500 gallons. 3244. What has been your output? — That is shown as follows ; — D FjiKRY's Rei^ULTS. Facioky Results. 1918. Butler. £ .s. d. Butter. October November ... ... 343 lb ... 372 „ ... . 20 16 . 22 17 3 7 112,687 lb...: 106,774 „ ... VH im 1(54, 1/64 1(64 1/64 December . . . 1919. ... 306 , . 21 1 7 87,651 „ ... l|5i January ... 268 „ .. 18 9 7 73,195 „ ... l|5i 1(64 1(8 February ... 242 „ ... . 17 6 55,855 ,, ., 1|64 March - 348 . 25 18 9 96,895 „ ... 1 6 1(8 April - 552 , . 39 7 6 91,164 1 6 11" May ■■■ 241 . 17 2 11 77,123 „ .. 1 6 1 7 17 1/74 1/74 1/74 1(74 1(84 1/84 June ... 60 ,, ... . 4 6 3 59,579 ,, ... 1/6 July ... 79 „ ... .. 5 10 1 57,2,58 ,, ... 1|6 l|6i I6i 164 164 164 August - 152, .. 11 10 , 5.3,770 „ ... September ... ... 310 „ ... . . 22 14 65,099 „ ... October November ... December . . . 1920. ... 498 „ ... ... 423 ,, ... ... 367 „ ... . 36 .. 31 .. 27 8 5 7 8 11 84,072 70,065 ,, ., 76,769 „ ... January February March April May June July August September ... October ... 300 ,, ... ... 329 „ ... ... 233 „ ... . ... 109 „ ... . ... 42 „ ... . ... 24 ,, ... ... 32., ... . ... 30 „ ... ... .55 ... 95 „ ... . 22 9 , 24 .3 .. 18 4 . 8 9 . 3 6 ..2 4 2 19 . 2 19 6 4 .. 10 14 9 5 7 3 2 1 1 9 87,231 „ ... 90,615 „ ... 75,463 „ ... 45,.328 „ ,. 28,463 ,, ... 19,350 „ ... 1.5,8.39 19,738 35,441 „ ,. 34,155 1/64 1/74 vn '.'.: ::: ::: i/e ... '.'.'. '.'.'. 1JJ04 2/1 2|44 2/44 1(84 1(84 1(8? 1/101 2104 2(14 2(2 2 54 2 54 3245. Chairman.] Does your factory test bu 3246. What does it cost for the Babcox test We had 2,000 cows and it cost each man 6d. cannot get them to do it here, tter? Yes. ? About 5s. Where I was we had a herd-testing association. per cow per yield. The Government subsidised it, but we Angua 185 WUneates—PL. MoGrego-, and W. E. Kirkneen, 29 and 30 ifovember, 1920. Angus McGregor, farmer, Bohvarra, sworn, and examined: — 32^7. Chuwnan.'l .^°" "i'li to make a statement ? Yes, in regard to what Councillor Ferry Las said that railk could be distributed more cheaply on the co-operative system. The advantage of that system is plain. I have been for a number of years a salesman of milk, butter, cheese, bfioon, ham, Ac. By liaving a .system which reduces the cost of the commodity to the consumer you will sell more of that commoditj-. Mr. Ferry argued in that direction hut he did not make himself quite clear. If we can get our milk distributed am.ng-t the community more cheaply we shall f-cU more of if. We have fourteen milkings in tlic week- two a day. I send my milk to Bothorne butter factory. I would like to have more milking daj s and Ic-is butter day.s, 3-.'48. If you supplied your milk to the inarket^, more would be consumed, and you would hav? more milk days, which pay you betb-r than butter days ? Yes. TUESDAY, 30th NOVEMBER, 1920. [The Comniitte? met at the Court House, West Maitland, at 10.15 a.m.] Hoy. Sill JOSEril CA"R]lUTnERS (in the Chair). Hon G. H. G. VARLEY, Hon. a. SINCLAIR, HiN H. E. HORNE, Hon. S. R. INNES-NOAD. William Eames Kirkness, orchardist, Gosford, sworn,, and examined : — 3249. Chairman.'] What area of land do you, occupy 1 One hundred acres, of which I cultivate twenty. 3250. That is for the orchard ] Solely. I have been asked by the Gosford Agricultural Association to come before the Committee. I am one of the Vice-Presidents of the Fruitgrowers' Association of New South Wales. I believe that the opportunity to come here to give evidence is one which should not be missed. A good deal has been said about improving the roads. We cannot ask the Government to do much in the matter because we are a Shire, and it depends largely on our willingness to submit to more taxation. The fact, however, is that the outlying places in my district sufTer very much from the bad roads. We also want better telephone communication. 3251. Are you a member of the Shire Council? No. 3252. You take an interest in Local Government affairs ? Yes. 3253. You are aware that the Shire Council can borrow money equal to three or five times the amount o£ its annual revenue ? Yes. 3254. Has your Shire Council exercised that power to borrow ? It ha.s to a certain extent, but unfortunately the members are going out of office this week. A fresh lot will come in and we are hoping for something better from them. 3255. You have not borrowed much ? No. 3256. You badly want good roads in your district? Ye.s. 3257. Do you know that roads properly made — good standard roads, an American expression which has passed into currency — last for generations ? Yes. 3258. Has it occurred to you that they cannot be made out of revenue ? Yes, we have felt fhat. 3259. It is the same with railways ; vqu cannot build them out of revenue ? That is so. 3260. The only way you can build such first-class roads is out of loan money ? Yes. 3261. I suggest that your council give consideration to the matter; TKe evidence is that with a total revenue of over £1,000,000 a year which the Shire Councils receive, they borrow less than £50,000. They have power to borrow practically £3,000,000 ? Yes. We have frequently urged that loans should be raised, and that better roads be constructed, but so far we have not had men with large enough vision to grapple with the situation. Better telephonic communication in the outlying districts would do much towards increasing the comfort of the settlers and improving business generally. As a fruit-growing district we should be in closer touch with the city and the market, and that in itself would be a great advantage to the primary producer. The cost of connection has precluded a great many of our people from having the telephone in their homes, 3262. There is also the social aspect of the matter. The wife and family of the man in the outlying districts like to be in touch with the outside world by moans of the telephone ? Yes. 3263. It is also very useful when you want a doctor or a nurse 1 Yes. 3264. To get a doctoV or a nurse, in a case of life or death, is, to my mind, more important than the price you are going to get for your fruit. Does not the telephone give a sense of security to the woman in the house. A mere man does not, perhaps, appreciate a woman's feelings in that matter, as he has better nerves in some thing.i, and less anticipation of trouble ? That is so. I appreciate your sympathy in that respect. I want to say a few words about the efforts being made by the Committee to make easier and more attractive the life of the farmer with a growing family. To a great extent it is the fault of tba farmer himself that he has not made his home life more attractive to-his boys in his struggling days wdiea his family was young. But at that time he was fighting for his living, and he was getting all he possibly could out of his family. He forgets the comfort of the boys and girls. If I were rich enough I would go from one end of the State to the other and endeavour to encourage a better feeling towards growing boys and girls. As far as I am concerned, as soon as the boy is big enough to work in the orchard I give him a share in the profits. It is an incentive to him to do his best and to exercise more care. Hg takes a greater interest in the work. I have tried to give the boy a greater interest in the production of the land, so that life might be more attractive to him. The producers have not given sufiicient attention to making their home life attractive. There is a big field outside to which many young men oh the land are attracted, where they are apparently better paid. But that is only apparently so. Boys on the land see the glamour of bigger wages in the city, but they forget that while they are paid wages, on the land they have the additional comfort of the home, and the attractions of its surroundings. If the primary producer made his home more attractive I think he would be able to keep his boys on the farm. t 6325—2 A 3265. 186 Witnesi—W. S. Kirkness, 30 November, 1920. 3265. When his boy leaves he has to pay a labourer. Does he pay the boy as much as he pays the labourer ? He has not paid him sufficient. In our district there are men who do pay their boys as muoh as they would pay an outside labourer, and there are men in my district who give their boys a percentage of the profits, which helps to hold them on the land. But T know many orchards and farms from which the boys have gone because they were dissatisfied. 3266. I do iiot urge that the boy should get the same wages as an outsider, because he afterwards comes into a share of the property which be helps to build up. The outside laborer does not. The children who help to build up the estate are, under the Family Midntenance law, entitled to a share in the estate, and the father must make fair provision for his children on tlie plea that the family has made the estate You appeal mainly to the mercenary aspect of the case. But is there not another aspect. If they looked , forward to a share in th6 estate, they would take more interest in their work 1 That is so. 3267. Have you had any education in agricultural matters other tliah what you have gained from pi-adtibal experience? No. I have tried to educate my boys in agriculture. I have a good library of agricultural books. 3268. Where have you sent them to be educated 1 They have paid visits to the Hawkesbury Agricultural College, and they have been sent to various demonstrations. Besides that, tliey have attended our fruit- growers' meeting!!, which are an education. .1 gave them a good public-schijol education. 3269. Have you or your family read Jules Henri Favre's " Science Stories for the Young " 1 No. 3270. Every farmer should read "Science Stories for the Young," "Field, Farm, and Forest," and "Insect Adventures," by Jules Henri Favre. Those books are like the gospel to young people. They are written in a way which arrests the attention of the child, and they set going the springs of tlie imagination. A child who has read those books will want to go out and watch the ants in the fields, or the spider in its web. He will see a new world open to liim. Do you encourage the children at home to go in for sport and recreation? Ye?. The^ have their cricket and football clubs. They have certain time off for recreation. But they would rather go to TerrigEil tO surf than play football. 3271. They have time to play games with the local club? Yes, it is necessary that they should have time off for recreation. 3272. Have you the community life in your neighbourhood. Are the people engaged in farming and orcharding in your district all good friends, who come together socially 1 Yes. I hive been secretary of the Agricultural Association during the past ten yi=ars, and I know there has been a vast improvement in the class of people who are settled in our district. There is plenty of land available, and men who know their business have come into the district to grow citrus fruits. 3273. Has anything been done to advnnce the community life of the district — do you hold gatherings at which, in addition to having a chat about your business, you can also have a dance? We have had ^gthing more than branch meetings of the Fruitgrowers' Association. 3274. You do not have convivial gatherings afterwards ? No. 3275. You must not forget that children like such gatherings, and it seems to me that if the wives and children gathered together at those meetings it would be a good thing ? Our experience is that we cannot mix them. We have our social gatherings, but we do not mix them with our fruit talk. 3276. Do you ever have visits from experts who give you lectures on matters connected with your work ? Yes, occasionally, from the Department of Agriculture. 3277. _ What societies have you in your district? The Agricultural Association and the Fruitgrowers' Association. The Agricultural Association attends principally to the annual show, and it keeps iii touch with the Department of Agriculture and its lectures. 3278. Who arranges for the visits of the experts in your district ? , The Association. 3279. That is apart from the show ? Yes. 3380. How often does your branch of the Fruitgrowers' Association meet ? Once a month. There are nine branches in the Gosford district. Those nine branches are linked up with what is called District Associations, which meet once a quarter. There are many fruit and plant diseases which the fruit experts have not time to deal with, or perhaps they are not able to deal with tliem. They have not sufficient time for research work. We have been told that men are not available for certain work which we were interested in. We have made requests to the Department to have experts sent to u«. 3281. In what way are experts needed by you ? New diseases come to light. V 3282. You believe there should be an expert fruit pathologist to study fruit diseases and advise you upon them ? Yes. There should be more research work by a plant pathologist in fruit disi?ases 3283. Have you a branch of the Agricultural Bureau in your district ? There have been several, but thev have lost themselves amongst the branches of the Fruitgrowers' Association. 3284 Would not it be well to arrange for the linking up of some of the Fruit Association branches with the Agricultural Bureau, instead of trying to run two separate bodies. Yes, we have" it that way and we nnd it works well. It prerents overlapping. •' 3285. Recognised as the Agricultural Bureau, you would get more sympathetic treatment from the Department ? Yes. After the usual business at the monthly meetings of the Fruitgrowers' Association a paper IS often read by one of the members on something of interest to fruitgrowers, which has the effect of making the meeting educational. 3286. You bring specimens along ? Yes. 3287. Are you well advised in regard to insect pests? We have a great many to atteHd to, which we cannot afford to lose sight of for orie rnoment. We get a lot of advice about pests, but therelre sotne which we are utterly unable to control. Sometimes die advice is not effective - me?thIs7ot1rnd alui t'r t'' °' '""^ '™^^^'''"^^^ ^°* ^^^^^^^ ''^^^ ^-^^-P^- = '^^^ depart- 3289. The only cure seems to be to dig out the tree ? Yes we Hn t>in+ Viruu i ^ consider wegetiven good ones out of t n. Having^leS^ti: matfer^f JSSiigTpt eVrSal that It costs J22 10s. per acre per year to work the orchard. That is wor-king expenses onlv ^ 3290. Does it include an allowance for plant ? That would bo a small matter 3291-2. What about irrigation and water plant? There is very little irrigation in our district 3293. Yon require plenty of water for spraying purposes ? That is included in the £22. 3294. ■ ISi 187 •• Witneaaes—yi. E. Kirkness, and K. Bowe, 30 November, 1920. 3293 You do not inJude rent of land, interest on capital cost of land, or rates and taxes ? No ; tfeaf would have to bo added. ^oqp~ wk* ^™"^*^ ''°™® '° between £22 and £32 per acre, all things considered 1 Yes. ,, .- "^* IS your return from full-bearing trees! Take 10 acres of citrus trees. Every year one can allow tor one-third of his trees liaving no crop, for some reason or other. While I know of some trees giving SIX and seven cases of fruit, I think the average works out at two cases per tree for the whole of a 10-acre orchard. 3297. How many cases would there be per acre? Two hundred. o-ll' l^^f'^ '^°"^'^ ^^°^^ '-^^^ °^^^^ average in the market ? Eight shillings per case, gross. 3299. Is the cost of the case included in the £22 ? No. 3300. What do you estimate is your profit per case ? About 3s. 3301. That is £30 per acre profit? Yes. It has not been more than a living, except on rare occasions. We consider that it costs .5s. to produce a case of oranges, for which we get on an average 8s. There ' Is. 3d. for the agents. ^ 3303. Mr. Home.] Is the .5s., the cost of producing a case of oranges, included in the £22 10s. per acre to which you have referred ? It costs us 5s. to produce a case of oranges. 3303. The cost of marketing is included in that 1 Yes. 3304. On an average you make 3s. profit on every case of oranges you sell t Yes. 3305. Chairman.] You make 3s. per case on 200 cases, which for a 10-acre orchard means £30 per acre profit? Yes. 3306. Out of the profit of £30 per acre you have to pay rates and taxes? Yes, we do not get much, income. 3307. Mr. Ilorne.] We can take it that it works out at about £30 per acre profit? Yes. 3308. In your 5s. estimate, do you allow for your own wages ? Yes ; 3s. per case is my share of the profit. 3309. Do you think you make £600 a year income off youi land, out of which you pay rates- and taxes,, and the baker, butcher, and grocer ? Yes, it would come to about that. 3310. Chairman.] Do you use fertiliser ? Yes. 331 1. Yea have had your soil analysed ? Yes. 3312. Do you get the Government publications of the Department of Agriculture, including the Agricul- tural Gazetle'i Yes. 3313. Do you avail yourself of the loan of books on agricultural matters from the lending branch of the: Public Library ? Yes, I have done that. A few weeks ago I went to Brisbane in connection with the; Interstate Fruitgrowers' Conference. I went out to the Blaokall Ranges, and saw there a 2-feet gauge, railway. I made inquiries as to the cost of the line. Laid down by the Sugar Company, it was sold to the Mourouchee Shire, who continued it into the ranges at a cost of £3,000. In many parts that line could be constructed for £1,500 per mile or less. There are many places in my district, and in the State,^ where light lines of railway could be built cheaply, which would act as feeders to the main line. Tbey. would pay from the start, and they would be a great help to the outback man, and the wheat and fruit; grower. Part of the .cost could be paid by the Government and part by the people interested. 3314. If you read the Comniittes's report you will see that in America it is cheaper to make good roads than light railways. In America they are tearing up the light railways and substituting good standard roads. Every one person in four on the land in. the United States has a motor car, and the day is not far away when that will be so in Australia, A motor car can travel 30 miles an hour over a good road, with produce to the town or the main railway. We want in this country good hard surface roads whichi can be used in wet weather as well as in dry weather. They would become feeders to the railway? Yes.'. 3.315. Mr. Innes.Noad.] Do the members of the Fruitgrowers Association in your district pay particular-, attention to packing fruit for market ? Yes, I was deputed last year to frame a Standardised Fruit or Grading Bill. My draft was accepted by the last conference of fruitgrowers, and was sent on for inclusion in the Bill. I believe my suggestions will bo adopted, with modifications. I have a copy of the Bill. It is the first time the Gov.'irument has sent us a copy of a proposed Bill for consideration. The' Bill if passed will assure compulsory grading, and fruitgrowers will have to send fruit to the city honestly packed. 331 1). Is not the Fruitgrowers Association able to ensure the proper grading of fruit without the assistance of an Act of Parliament? No. 3317. In the city it is almost impossible to buy fruit at anything but famine prices, and the complaint is' that the cases are topdressed with good fruit, and that the greengrocer finds in the bottom rows bad or. indifferent fruit, quite different from what he finds at the top. Consequently it is a common thing to have to pay 3d. and 4d. for oranges ? Yes. That should be a penal offence. : Edwin Rowe, orchardist, Cardiff", sworn, and examined : — - 3318. Chairmarh.] What area of orchard have you ? Seven and a half acres. 3319. How long have you been on your holding? Thirty-thr.ee years. 3320. Had you any education in agriculture before you wont on the land? No, 1 have picked up all I know. 3321. Have you a fnmily ? Yes. 3322. Are they sticking to the orchard ? No, except one, whom I am paying. 3323. I should think you hardly have enough land ? I have enough to work. 1 have to pay labour, as I cannot do it all myself. My land is very hilly. 3324. Were your sons ntlracted to the town ? The high wages at the pits attracted them. I could not keep them at home. My income will not allow me to pay more wages. 3325. Would any of your sons prefer to go in for fruitgrowing if they could get a block of land ? I hardly think so. 3326. Tl ey do not like it ? Fruitgrowing on a little area like mine means working from daylight to dark,- and my sons would rather work their eight hours somewhere else wbere they get good wages, and be done with it. 3327. 188 Wiinusu—^. Rowe, and A. Barrett, 30 November, IWO. 3327. Can you suggest no remody to make life on the land more attractive to bays ! Only by getting a guaranteed price for our fruit from the Government. Some of our fruit is sold in Newcastle for 2s. a ca.e and in the shops at 2d. each. Some of my Alberta peaches have brought that pnce^in Newcastle Ihere are a number of people in the Cardiff district living on small areas who suffer from the h.g . cost of labour. 3328. What fruit do you grow 1 Both citrus and stone. ,,,.,., xj 3329. What would you average for a case of good fruit 1 About 3s. 6d. a half-bushel case. How can a man pay high wages and for manures out of my earnings. The f ruii^fly is now worse in my district than it has been since 1 have been growing f ruie, over thirty-three years. In my opinion, supervision is a waste of money, because there are so many fruit trees grown in ordinary gardens or in back yards that are not under supervision. Furthermore, the fruitgrowers in Newcastle have been in business as long a.s 1 have, ye- they do not know the fruit fly from the codlin-moth. [ suggested when Mr. Campbell was m my dis net the other day that he should call a meeting to got the sellers and producers together with a view to oaucating them on the fruit-fly and its habits. 3330. There are two kinds of fruit-Qy ? Ye.^, the Queen-land and the Mediterranean fly. il.e shopkeepers do not kno-v thorn. We fruitgrowers are compelled to boil or burn our infected fruit, but you can see hawkers going round from house to house selling bad fruit out of their baskets. The fly goes into black apple and the wild fig, and comes ba:k into the orchard. If you want to eradicate the fir you must have better supervision all round. We cannot grow stone fruit after January. 3331. You want early stone fruit or norc at all? Yes. AVe want the consumer, the hawker, and the seller oducatedin regard to the fruit fly. It requires an expert to tell when fruit is first attacked by the fly. The fruit inspector is only concerned about the grower, but if you want to keep (he country clean the consumer and the scl!or will have to be fducated in its habit.s. 3332. If the fruit^fly could bo got rid of, your prospects would be materially improved ? Yes. 3333. By what do vou think your inoms would be increased if you could get rid of the fruit-fly ? From £450 to £600. 3334. Your case r.pr. sents that of many more fruitgrowers, whose income could jirobablj bo increased from £200 to £300 per ye r for an expenditure of about £20,000 a year to cope with tlie post 1 Ye^. 3335. Have you other fruit pests 1 Yo.-i ; brown spot and woolly aphis. Our district is not an apple- growing one. 3336. Is thcie a good method of ccmtrol'ing fungu? disease ? They are not proved 5-et. Wc use lime and sulphur spray, AVe have not proved it yet. 3337. You v/ant more practical demonstration work in regard to the spray ? Yes 3338. You may do more damage than good with it 1 Yes. 3339. If thrre weie a dLnionstratlon orchard in the district it would bo a great bcneflf. to you 'i Yos. Some seasons the fruit lipeus earlier than others. You may spray this mouth and have to spray later next year. 3340. Supposing the Government took over an orchard in your district and used it fur demo: sti'ali n purposes for one year, and then it took over another man's orchard for a similar purpose next year? Yes, that is a good idea. Another important matter is tfiat we have no control over our fruit case?, which cost us a lot of money. They now cost Is., and bushel cases Is. 6d. If I buy 1,000 cases to-morrow, put my brand on them, and send them to market, there is nothing to prevent anyone taking them a ^ay the next day when they are emp^y. I have no control over them ; 1,038 cases represent about £50. I am not clearing above £2 5s. per week. The Government should make it a punishable ofFence for an) one to use my cases with my name on thcm.- 3341. I suggest that you fruitgrowers ought to give more practical consideration to the matter. I Iiad an orchard 500 miles away from your place, and I got a lot of cases there which wore all branded. Suppo.sing I want a case to send fruit to a frijnd, I have those cases there. I bought the frui^, and paid for the case as well as the fruit. To send it back to you might cost me 4 s. I am not going to do that ? I might do you a lot of harm as a fruitgrower by taking four or five of your cases, supposin;; I took them for the purpose of sending them to an agent with your name on them. 3342. But supposing I removed the brand on the case and it were made an offence to no another man's braml. Under the law a man is not allowed to use another man's case with his name on it. I dare not use your case with your brand on it ? I do not know that. Our bureau considers that the Department at the end of the year should ascertain for it whether the in.spector ha^ done his duty in the district in which he works. ' There should be a check on his work. 3348. Should there not be a more rigid inspection of fruit trees in private gardens 1 Yes. tliero are not enough inspectors. Almost every man who has a quarter of an acre of land has a few fruit trees, and those are the trees that breed these pests. Alfred Barrett, fruitgrower, Cardiff, sworn, and examined : — 3344. Chairman.] For how many years have you been engaged in agriculture, and at what places? Twenty- seven years at Warner's Bay, Lake Macquarie, and at Cardiff. I am the owner of my ludding, which comprises twenty-one acres. I have had no education in agriculture at school or ehewhero other than in actual practice. I have never been employed on salary or wages in agricultural work. 1 have '^'aincd mv knowledge of agriculture by actual practice and, reading. ^ 3345. Have you any family ? Eight children. 3446. Are any of your family working on your holding ? Yes, three are assisting me 3347. What disadvantages do you labour under that you think may or should reasonably cngaae the attention of the State to either diminish or remove them ? The fruit-fly and the flying-foxes cau.so serious loss of summer fruits. In the case of the fruit-fly we want better inspection. Neglected orchards should be destroyed, and the public should be educated up to the necessity for the destruction of infected iruiK The flymg-foxes should be destroyed, and fruitgrowers should be strongly advised to poison them with strychnine. The Government should provide for demonstrat'ors by experts in districts v here the flying- foxes cause loises to glowers, •' ° 3318. 189 WimeM—k Barvttt, 30 November, 1920. 3348. Is there a tendency in your district for boysand girls to leave the land ? My place is only 8 miles from Newcastle. There is not the same tendency for them to leave the farm there, as they are fairly close to the town. 3349. Instead of their living on a pocket handkerchief allotment in the town or the city they are living on a decent area of land with pleasant surroundings ? Yes. 3350. The country life has its attractions 1 Yes. 3351. Are you endeavouring to interest j'our children in the land by educating them in agricultural matters? The two eldest are girls, who assist their mother in the home. The boy has not left school^ but he takes an interest in the orchard. 3352. Do you keep poultry ? No. 3353. Do you not like them in the orchard ] No, I would not have them in the orchard. I tried them ; they scratch too much. 3354. You had a peculiar visitation of flying foxes last year ? Yes, it meant a great loss to us. 3355. They came to my place, where they had never been before. They came one night and loaded themselves up with apples, which they dropped on the roof. In one night they had pretty well half the fruit on the ground ? Yes, it is a very serious thing. 3356. I understand you have joined the Agricultural Bureau 1 Yes, &357. Is it a live body ? We have thirty members. 3358. Do you meet regularly ? Monthly. 3359. Dj you derive much benefit from it? Yes it brings us together and we exchange ideas. 3360. What doss it cost you psr acre to grow and harvest your crop of fruit? £35 per acre. I have no seed to buy. 3361. What farm implements and machinery do you use? 2 ploughs, 1 harrow, 1 horse, hoe, and cultivator. 3362. What are fair averagi) yields of each crop on your holding? 100 bushels of stone fruit and 300 bushels of citrus fruit per acre. I would put the cost of production down as follows : ploughing and cultivation, £10 ; pruning, £5 ; spraying, £2 ; commission and cartage, £5 ; manures, £5 ; £7 10s. per cent, of plant and horses used : That comes to £34 10s. 3363. Would 8s. per bushel case be a fair return ? Yes. 3364. I suppose about 3s. per case would be a fair profit in an ordinary season ? But I have no freight to pay. I use fertiliser. 3365. Have you had fairly good seasons in a period of five years ? Up till last year, yes, except for the pests. 3366. They have diminished your yield ? Yes. 3367. What is your system of cultivation ? I plough, and apply fertiliser, and adopt early spring fallow, autumn and winter for stone fruit ; for citrus fruit I work the soil four times during the year. 3368. Have you ever had your soil analysed ? No. 3369. You should have it analysed, otherwise you do not know what fertiliser your soil requires. By practice I have found that it is necessary, as at one time I was in the habit of putting so many tons of lime on my land, which I thought required it. It did not have the result that I anticipated so I thought I would have my soil analysed. I sent samples to Mr. Guthrie, the soil analyst. I added sometimes 56 lbs. of superphosphates to the acre. On analysis I found that I had 9,000 lbs. of lime to the acre. It seemed foolish to be adding more. I also bought potash, and on analysis I found there were 7,000 lbs. of potash per acre in the land. No man knows what is in his soil until it is analysed. You can have it done free of cost. Is there any Government officer or other person with knowledge available in your district to whom you can appeal for advice on your agricultural work ? The fruit inspector. 3370. How far is your holding from the nearest village ? One mile from Cardiff post office. 3371. What sort of communication have you ? An indifferent road. 3372. Have you a telephone? No. 3373. Would you have one if the cost was reasonable? Yes. 3374. Do you receive the publications of the Department of Agriculture ? Yes. 3375. Have you availed yourself of the loan of books by post on agricultux-e and kindred subjects from the lending branch of the Public Library ? No. 3376. Have you any books on farming, veterinary work, farm mechanics and other subjects to help you , to gain up-to-date information on the industsy you are engaged in ? Yes. 3377. Have you a good and sufficient water supply for stock and for domestic need ? Yes. I have a permanent creek through my holding. Owing to the high cost of clothing and food for the family, and the increased cost of fertilisers I find this year that I am unable to pay for labour, which is difficult to obtain, owing to the high wages received at various collieries and industrial works in and around Newcastle. That must tend to lessen production, and to prevent the extension of the area under cultivation, which has to be limited, so that the owner himself, assisted by his family, can cope with the work. This is the only year that T have had to do without outside help. 3378. If the tendency is for labour to increase in price do you consider you are entitled to a larger return for your produce ? Yes. 3379. Have you any system of co-operation? We have a farm co-operative selling agency. 3380. Is it doing you any goad ? Yes, it has helped us materially in regard to cases. Before we had fi\e association growers would lose four or live pounds worth of cases in a season. 3381. Has the agency secured you better prices? I cannot say. The only way to fimi that out would be to split the consignments. 3382. Have you tried retailing? Yea, for 13 years. Only sinco the Co-Oi)erative Society started operation.s, five years ago, have I put my produce in the sales. To get ourselves est;iblished we found we had to retail our produce. 3383. You. could pay higher wages if the public paid you more for your produce ? Yea, if there w( re some method by which the public could got fruit cheaper on a retail basis direct from the grower, wc should be better off, 3384. 190 JVaneseea—A. Barrett, and J. Cockburn, 30 November,' 1920 3384. J/r. Home.] The public pay high prices for fruit,now1 They do, no doubt. We find the retg-ilersi hardly handle fruit under 100 per cent, profit. There is no other commodity on which tfioy are allowed to make such a profit. 338.5. Chairman.] How many oranges are there in a bushel case? On an average, 14 dozen. 3386. You get 8s. for a bushel case^ Yes. 3387. You receive less than |d. an orange ? Yes. 8388. What are they retailed at in Newcastle? l|d. to 2d. each. We should get 66 per cent, and allow the seller 33^ per cent- 3389. J/r. Varley.] The retailer gets 28s. for what you get 8s. 1 I do not say he would get 2d. for all the oranges in the case. He would get from ^d. to 2d. 3390. How many agents charge for the cases? They all do. They have lost so many cases, and they know they have been charged for them. They are not returned from the agent. 3391. Why doas the grower support these agents if they will not pay you for the cases, for which they receive payment f The only thing that stops the growers from joining the Co-operative Society is finding the £10 for the share they have to buy. If the industry were better organised we should be better off'. 3392. Chairman.] That is the job of the growers themselves? Yes. 3393. Many of these difficulties can be overcome by better organisation on the part of the grower ? Yes. But they seem afraid to venture until they know how a thing is going. ■ J ohn Cockburn, orchardist, Cardiff, sworn, and examined : — 3394. Chairman.'] Have you been engaged long in agriculture ? Eight years. I am the owner of my holding, which comprises ten acres. 3395. Do you employ any other labour besides yourself?' No. It takes me all my time to attend to five acres of orchard. 3396. Do you agree with the estimate of cost of production given by other witnesses ? Yes, generally. 3397. In what way have you gained your knowledge of agricultural practice ? I have had the advice of those engaged in the industry, and I have gained information at meetings of the Agricultural Bureaai and at demonstrations of pruning gi^en by otBcers of the Agricultural Department. 3398. Have you had talks with the iruit inspector ? Yes. 3399. Have you any family ? No. The only local organisation in the district is the branch of the Agricultural Bureau. I grow .peaches, plums, citrus fruits, tomatoes, peas, and potatoes. Five acres of orchard is quite enough for an able man to attend to. My yields are subject to the various pests in the district, and it is difficult for mo to give an estimate of fair average yield of each crop on my holding. 3400. In a perijd of live years how would you describe the seasons in 3'our district? — That is a difficult question for an ,orchardi?t to answer, as wet weather or a cold snap when the young fruit is setting will spoil the work of the year. In other respects the seasons have been good. I find it beneficial to use fertilisers. 3401. -Have you ever had your soil analysed? — Yes; the results were: re-action of soil faintly acid; nitrogen, 336 per cent, satisfactory; lime, -35 percent, indifferent; potash, '157 good; phosphoric acid, •197 per cent, satisfactory. 340-2. Is there iiny Government Officer or other person with knowledge available in your district to whom you can appeal for advice on your agricultural work? — There is the inspector ' under the Vine and Vegetable diseases and Fruit Trees Act. 3403. How far is your holding from the nearest village or town ?— Seven miles from Newcastle. I am in' an outer suburb. 3404. What sort of communication h ive j'ou ? - Good. 340.5. Have you the telephone ? — No. 340G. Would you have one if the cost were reasonable ? — Yes. 3407. Do you receive the publications of the Department of Agriculture? — Yes. 3408. Have you availed your.self of the loan of books by post on agriculture and kindred .'iuhjects from the" lending branch of the Public Library 1 Yes. 3409. Have you any books on farming, veterinary work, or farm mechanics? Yes. 3410. Have you a good and sufficie.it water supply ? Yes- ,3411. J)o you find the books from the Public Library useful to you? Yes. , Tliey will send me a box of books on dem uid. They cost me sometimes Gd. and sometimes Ss. for postage, but I find them worth it. I would like to say that the inspection of nurseries and the young trees which are supplied from them' could be carried out bet' or. Young trees are sent out with the following diseases : crown gall, armaillarie, San Jose scale, and they somi-times carry sorrel- weed seed or roots. Trees are sent out which' are not triie to name, and it may be ..throe or four years before that is detected, which is a serious thin" for the orchardist. Unsuitable stocks are used. Peach and plum stones are bought from the jam factories for use. Attention could be given lo procuring «eed from healthy robust trees. The obtainin" of pure seed, of vegetable crops interests us much. The Department of Agriculture coidd arrange with farmers to- grow crops of pure seed in suitable loualities under supervision, or failing that, farmers could co-operate and do (he same. The Department of Agriculture contends that one of the objects of the A"ricuLture Bureau is to convene meetings amongst the various bureaux to discuss matti-ris affecting them So^far none have laeen' held. Orchardists are provided for in Regulations under the Vine, Vegetation, and Fruit Pest Act igi'' An Inspector is appointed under the Act to control a certain area. In our case the 1 emulation marked 14* referring to trees in an abandoned or deserted orchard has not been given effect to Perhaps the difficultv' the Inspector has to face if the Act were enforced, has to a certain extent nullified its provisions beinff Cj.rr,ed out An Inspector may find a glaring case He reports it to the Department and then, if thorght justifiable by the officials in Sydney, an order is forwarded to the offenHina per.son That method is cumbersome and hampers the carrying out of the provisions of the Act. The In^.peotor should hav,> power to prosecute. W here there is an association engaged in fruit growing, -ho Deplrlment should' at^ least once a year inquire if the pi;ov,.sion.s of the Act arc being carried out to its satisllcti-.n At oresr.nt . n Inspector .s under no supervision m the fi.ld, oth.r than having to urite reports weekly, and hi' n^iny ias:s reports are easier than making in.spections, because orchardists do not work together by associations, able 191 WUntsaee — J. Cookburn, and E. Bowden, 30 November, 1920; able to enforca the pro\'isions of the Act. Fruitgrowers are at the mercy of many pests the worst being fly'ug-foxes, fruit-fly, and brown rot or fungus ; flying-foxes are largely out of our control. To combat the fruit-fly more stringent inspection should be made. This season our branch of the Agricultural Bureau has asked the Inspector to do so. The Department of Agriculture should proclaim fruit-growing areas, and decide what varieties of trees should be grown in them. At present varieties are grown which carry cipe fruit through about ten months of the year and so propagate the fruit fly. If only the varieties were grown which caused a break in the feeding of the fly, the pest could be minimised. In my locality the growing of peaches, plumbs, and apricots is most profitable as those fruits ripen before the end of January, and, as a rule, the fruit-fly is not troublesome until January. The brown-rot fungus will cause great less in seasons of normal rainfall, and the Department of Agriculture should give more attention to combating the disease. From newspaper reports as many as six sprayings of lime and sulphur have been made on the Yanko Irrigation area this season, yet it is not under control. Elias Bowden, farmer, Glenella, West Maitland, sworn and examined ; — ■ 3412. Chairman.^ You have been a long time engaged in agricultuire in the district? All my life, 60 years, at Bulwarra and West Maitland, farming. 3413. Are you the owner of your holding I I was the owner when I was farming. 3414. What area is your holding ? 35 acres. 3415. Have you had any education in agriculture other than in actual practice ? No. 3416. Were you ever employed on salary or wages in agricultural work ? No. 3417. In what way did you gain your knowledge of agricultural practice? With Jtty parents as a boy and thirty-five years working on my own account, 3418. Have you any family ? Three daughters. 3419. Are any of your family working on your holdings ? No. 3120. Is there a tendency for the young people on the farm as they grow up to remain in the country or to go to the city or town ? Having no sons, I have no experience with my own family. 3421. Can you suggest in what ways life on farms may be made more attractive to the families of farmers ? I have no suggestion to make in that regard. The home life conditions in my district are very satisfac- tory. The young people have every convenience, and I think they are contented. 3422. What disadvantages have you laboured under which you think may or should reasonably engage the attention of the State so as to diminish or remove them ? One disadvantage is the interference of the Federal and State Governmencs in tlie prices of our produce. Supply and demand should rule the market. I have yet to learn that the Government has improved the producers position by fixing prices. 3423. Have you any local organisation which etideavours to secure the mutual co-operation of men on the land for the improvement 6f the life of the community socially, industrially, and educationally 1 No. 3424. What crops do you mostly grow 1 Lucerne is the principal one from Hunter River seed. Potatoes and onions are grown extensively in the district, also seed potatoes — Early Rose, Satisfaction and Brownell. The seed was procured from the New England district for summer crop, and we plant our own potatoes for winter crop. Pumpkins, melons, maize and millett are grown in the district. H425. What is a fair cost per acre for growing and harvesting your crop? Lucerne cropping £19 15s. ])er acre, harvesting £9; potatoes, every 6 months, cropping £15 5s., harvesting £9; onions cropping £19 17s.,' harvesting £11 16s.; maize cropping £9 16s., harvesting £6 8s ; pumpkins and melons cropping £4 10s., harvesting £3 10s. 3426. What farm implements and machinery do you use, and what do they represent in cost prices on your farm? Mowing machine £30 ; two drays £50 ; horse rake £15 ; van £30 ; hay press, horse gear and bale cutter £100 ; sundries £80— total £30.5. 3427." What are fair average yields of each crop on your holding? Lucerne 6 tons, potatoes 5 tons, onions 6 tons, melons 8 tons, maize 60 bushels. 3428. How have the seasons been in a period of five years? They have -been fair from a growing point of view, but prices have been good. Farmers generally have been financially sucrdssful. I believe in rotation of crops always pays better than sowing the same crops, year after year. Very little fertilizer is used because if we have good seasons we can grow almost anything, and get good crops witajout it. 3429. Have you ever had your soil analysed ? No. I am not a tlieory man. 3430. Is there any Government officer in your district to whom to can appeal for advice ? No. 3431. How far is your holding from the nearest village, town, or railway ? Two miles. 3432. What sort of communication have you 1 Good. 3433. Have you the telephone ? It is a great advantage to the farmer, and many of them are availing themselves of the use of it. 3434. Do you receive the publications of the Department of Agriculture ? No. 3435. Have you any books on farming ? Yes. 3436. Have you a good and sufficient water supply ? We have a well supply for stock and a tank supply for domestic use. We once had Mr. Froggatt, Government Entomologist, in the district, when the fly- past was bad, but "he could give us no cure for it. I think he ought to have been able to show us how to get rid of the pest. He said he would go back and study it, and let us know what to do. But we have no remedy for it. 5437. Lucerne is the principal crop in this district ? Yes, we prefer to get our seed from other districts on the Hunter. 3438. A man can make a living on a small area in this district ? Yes, on 20 to 40 acres. 3439. Have you any general remarks to make ? As regards boys staying on the farm, conditions are diflerent now" from what they were fifteen or twenty years ago. There was no inducement then to leave the farm, and one had then to work under worse conditions. Boys brought up with their parents show a tendency to remain on the farm, especially if the prospects are good. But boys wlio have not been brought up on their parents' farm, and who have nothing to look forward to, prefer to go to the town to work, as ■w^ages there are better and th? hours shorter. The farmer in our district believes in different r ^ crops 192 Witnesses— F.. Bowden, W. J, Graham, and J. Lavis, 30 November, 1920. crops, one after the other. We plant potatoes in the Spring and leave room for rows of pumpkins or melons in between— every fifth row for melons and every tenth low for pumpkins, and when we take our potatoes out the ground is cropped again, with good results. We do the same with onions. We have ■ two crops a year and also a change of crops. We never sow the same crop more than two or three times in succession. The middle-man is most essential. 3440. You think you cannot do without the middle man ? Yes. We cannot do without him. He is our best friend. We would not tolerate buyers coming out to our farms to buy a few potatoes or a few pumpkins. We want to sell them by the ton. 3441. You think with proper limitation he has bis use t Yes, he is very useful. William John Graham, farmer and dairyman, Clifden, Woodville, sworn and examined :— 3442. Chairman.] Have you been long engaged in dairying and farming in the district 1 Twenty years. I am the lessee of my holding. I have 1,288 acre.''. 3443. Had you any education in agriculture at school or elsewhere other than in actual practice ? No. 344i. Have you ever been employed on wages or salary ? No. 3445. How have you gained your knowledge of agricultural practice ? By practical work, 3446. Have you any family ? Six. 3447. Are any of yciur family working on your holding t No. 3448. In what ways can life on the farm be made more attractive to the families of farmers 1 Hy providing better facilities generalfy, including the telephone, better roads, and better postal service. 3449. Is there any institution near Maitland which gives instruction in agriculture to children 1 No. 3450. What school do your children go to 1 The Public School, a mile and a half from where I live. 3451. Is there no instruction given in agriculture at the High School 1 I never heard of any. 3452. Would not you like your children to get a little instruction in agriculture at schools 1 I think tliey can get on with practical work on the farm. I do not go much on theory, 3453. That is because you have never had the benefit of it ] Possibl}'. 3454. You have had to pick up all you know about agriculture 1 Yes, and you do not kiiow what you do not know. Where ignorance is bliss, it is folly to be wise 3455. It is better to be wise than to be foolish? Yes, but I do not go much on theory. 3456. Your postal service is not a good one ? Not too good. I live 6 miles out of the town. L"tter5 which we post lie in Maitland a day before they are delivered if they do not happen to catch the right mail. Some people in my district do not get their letters for two days after they are posted. Tlie farmer pays his rates and taxes, and he should have a better postal service. 3457. Have you a frontage to the road ? Yes, our mail comes out by trap. 3458. You could have a mail-bag to be dropped at your own gate for £2 a ytar ? Yes. 3459. What other disadvantages do you labour under that you think may or should reasonably engage the attention of . the State so as to diminish or remove them? There are the high freights and slow delivery of produce by rail, excessive taxation, lack of flood mitigation, and want of water conservation. 3460. Is there any local organisation in your district which endeavours to secure the mutual co-operatiou of the farmers for the improvement of the life of the community, socially industrially, and educationally? There is the Parmers and Settlers' Association. 3461. What crops do you mostly grow. Lucerne and maize. 3462. What is a fair cost per acre for growing and harvesting, including your own labour, seed, rent of land, and 15 per cent, of value of plant, and horses used 1 £14. 3463. What do your farm implements used by you represent in cost prices on your farm? £1,000. 3464. What are fair average yields of each crop oti your holding'! Lucerne, 5 tons per acre. 3465. How have the seasons been in a period of five yoard ? Two good and three bad. I go in for rotation of crop", and I fallow. 3466. Have you had your soil analysed ? Yes. 3467. Is there any Government officer in your district to whom you can appeal for advice on your agricultural work ? No. 3468. How far are you from the town or railway ? Six miles from Maitland. 3469. What sort of communication by road have you ? Gond. 3470. Have you the telephone ? Yes. 3471. Do you receive the publications of the Department of Agriculture ? No. 3472. Do you get books on loan by post on Agriculture and kindred subjects from the Lending Branch of the Public Library ? • No. 3473. Have you any books of your own on farming, veterinary work, or farm mechanics to help you to gain up-to-date information on the agricultural industry 1 Yes. 3474. Have you a, good and sufficient water supply for stock and for domestic needs ? Yos. John Lavis, dairy farmer, Bowthorne, Hinton, sworn and examined ; 3175. Chairmin.] Have you been long engaged in agriculture ? About forty years. Part of that time I was a butter manufacturer. I am the ownpr and leaseholder of my holding. I have about 68 acres freehold ancl 20 acres leasehold. I have had no education in agriculture except what I have gained in actual practice. , 3 176. Have you ex er Ij' on employed on wages or salary on agricultural work ? I was manager of the Bowthorne Butter Factory for four years after selling out to the company. 3477. In what way have you gained your knowledge on agricultural practice? By keepin" mv eves open and watching results, and by inventing things myself. I have alwaye been a worker. '^ " ^ ^ ^ 3478. Have you any family ? I have three girls and a boy, all of whom are marrie J The eirls live in Sydney. The boy is managmg the Gloucester Butter Factory. None of my family is working on my 3479. I0:i Witness— J. Lavis, 30 November, 1920. 3479. Was there a desire oi- tendency on tlie part of your family as they grew up to remain in the country or go to the city or town ? My three daughters are in Sydney and they would not leave there to come to the country. My aon, although he is in the country, has expressed his wish to go to Sydney, the inducement being the higher wages and less working hours there. 3480. In what ways can life on the farm be made more attractive or satisfying to the families of farmers and settlers 1 By educating children in agi-iculture and affording them facilities for pleasure, also by establishing night schools for the winter months. I would suggest that the local school be used for that purpose, which would save the expense of building halls. 3481. What disadvantages, if any, do you labour under that you think may, or should, reasonably engage the attention of the State so as to diminish or remove them 1 We want better arrangements in Sydney and other places for the farmers to sell their produce. ' There should be less middle men, who want tSo much of the profits. We also want lower freights. If that were done it would make the product of the farm cheaper to the consumer, and it would be better for us farmers. 3482. You want co-operation amongst the farmers. If you will read the Committee's reports you will see how it is done in Canada and America ? Yes. 3483. Is there any local organisation in your district which endeavours to procure the mutual co-operation of men on the land for the improvement of the life of the community socially, industrially and educa^ tionally ? Only the Primary Producerfi Union. There is a branch at Hinton. 3484. What is your principal product — Cream ? My chief crop is lucerne. 3485. What farm implements and machinery do you use 1 Separator and plant, disc plough, disc harrow, roller, and harrower, seed sower, fertilizer, besides which I have other small tools. The total value of my plant is between £1,240 and £1,500. 3486. What are fair average yields of your crop 1 Lucerne about 1 ton to 25 cwt. to the acre, each cut, and about five cuts per year, or more in good seasons. My experience is that we have a change of seasons every five or seven years, and in wet seasons our land is more productive. 3487. What is your system of cultivation 1 I sow broadcast ; I find it less work. But the land must be well tilled and worked very fine. I use a fertiliser. 3488. Have you had your soil analysed ? No. 3489. Is there any Government officer in your district to whom you can appeal for advice on your agricul- tural work 1 Not that I know of. I should be pleased if there was. I try to learn from my neighbours . 3490. How far is your holding from the nearest village, town, or railway 1 I am one mile from Hinton, three and a half miles from Morpeth railway station, and seven miles from Maitland. We want a main roads grant between Hinton and Morpeth, for the road is very ba8 since the last flood. 3491. Have you the telephone ? Yes ; I hav^e it laid on, but I find it expensive. It is very important to have the telephone. 3492. Do you receive the publications of the Department of Agriculture ? No. 2493. Have you availed yourself of the loan of books by post from the Lending Branch of the Public Library 1 No. 3494. Have you any books on farming, veterinary worki farm mechanics, or other subjects to help you to gain lip-to-date information on the agricultural industry ? Very few. I have some books on poultry, but poultry has been a failure because of the high prices for wheat and pollard. 3495. Have you a good and sufficient water supply for stock and for domestic needs 1 I have two large tanks and a reservoir 52 feet x 27 feet. All my water is rain water. 3496. You have some general remarks to make 1 Yes. Being the pioneer of the butter industry of the Lov\er Hunter, I have had considerable experience in butter manufacture and the production of both milk and cream. I started Bowthorne butter factory in 1892, with about 100 gallons of milk for the seperator. In less than twelve months my supply wont up to 1,100 gallons, and I got better results at that time than at any time since. I went in for testing and got better results, but never as good as at first. After running the business for some years and getting the output up to £35,000 a year, I decided to float it into a company, which I managed for four years. ])uring that time I had a small dairy some distance from the factory. The industry is now one of the most staple in the country, and should be assisted. There should be more farmers depots for the receipt of milk and butter in all the central markets. Our milk is sold here at about Is. 4d. per gallon, and the consumer in Sydney is paying lOd. per quart for it. There is too much for transit and the cost of distribution is too great. The consumer and producer lose a great deal for that reason. I am at a loss to know why the Government piggery was closed. Pigs were one of my principal assets when I had the factory. My experience of poultry has been a failure. Feed is too dear. I had ever 1,000 fowls, but had to sell because of high prices of feed. As regards potatoes in this district, the farmers interest has been neglected and hence the slump. The farmer has to put his produce on the open market. He cannot pass it on to the public as the man in business does., 3497. Do you use the Babcox test ? Yes, and we get better results. 3498. You have said that you do not go much on theory. The Babcox test is a bit of theory, and it has revolutionised the butter factory. Has not that test been of the greatest use 1 Yes. 3499. Has potato growing been a failure in the Hunter district this year 1 Yes, pretty well. They were £16 per ton a fortnight or so ago, and now they are down to £5 per ton. In a fortnight they may be up to £16 again. I have been awarded prizes for butter at the Maitland Show as follows :— Awarded First Prize Maitland Show, 1895, 1896, 1899, 1900, 1901, 1902. 190,3 - 1st, 2nd, 3rd and Government Champion for Best Export Butter. 190-1— 1st, 2nd, 3rd for Best Export Batter, and 1st for Best Creamery Butter, presented by Duo'-ieuBeld Park 1905- 1st and 2nd for Best Creamery Butter, presented by Ducienfield Park Dairy Co. Judge's Remarks, 1901 Show.— In regard to ^°) -^ 3628. You would sooner live in the Bolwarra district or in some similar district than in a side street in Newcastle? Y( s, by all means. there ?^''YeI"'''"'" ^°^' *^""'' ''"''"' *"'" °°"'^'"°"' °^ '^^^ ^''- ^''■^^^' i° ^he towns that they want to go 363Q. 199 Witnesses— A, Voreoe, M. Smith, and VV. H. Scobie, 30 November, 1920. 3630. Mr Varley.] How many cuts of lucerne do you get at Bolwarra? Generally about six. The intro duction of some system of competitions might keep the settlers interested, besides being an incentive to produce the best crops. Every consideration should be given to the farmer in the trucking of his produce. A great deal of time is often lost in unloading, and ample provision is not always made for handling the William Smith, dairy farmer, Bona-vista, Patersou, sworn, and examined : — 3631. Chairman.] You have been a long time engaged in agriculture 1 Forty years at Paterson. 3632. Are you the owner of your holding 1 Yes. I have 400 acres. I have had no education in agriculture other than in actual practice, and I have never been employed on wages or salary. I have gained my knowledge of agriculture by practical experience. 3633. Have you any in family 1 Yes, one son, who assists me both in dairy and farm work. There has been no desire on the part of my family for city or town life. From my experience, if a boy is afforded a good secondary school education, to give him a broad-minded view of life, he is encouraged in things which appertain to country life, he is nob sickened of farm life by endless toil when of tender years, and, if sufficient inducement is given him, he will not hanker after city life. 3634. In what way can life on farms be made more attractive to the families of farmers and settlers ? Legislation with special reference to the matter should relieve the tendency to leave. We have no local organisation which endeavours to secure the mutual co-operation of men on the land for the improvement of the life of the community. My chief crops are maize, lucerne, potatoes, and green fodder. A fair cost per acre for growing and harvesting maize is £15, and potatoes £30. My 'farm implements include ploughs, harrows, cultivators, mowing, machine, hay rake, separators (hand and power), and engine (driven by benzine), of the approximate total value of £300. A fair average yield of maize is 60 bushels to the acre ; potatoes, 4 tons per acre ; green fodder, 10 tons per acre ; and lucerne hay, 1 ton per acre. My system of cultivation is to rotate crops and use fertilisers. I have never had my soil analysed. An officer frorn the Department of Agriculture has been experimenting on my farm with various crops for a number of years, and through him I have gained much valuable information. My holding is I rtiile from the railway station, and I have a navigable river frontage. 3635. What sort of communication have you by road 1 It is a macadamized road in fair condition. I have no telephone, but I recognise the value of such means of communication. 3636 Do you receive the publications of the Department of Agriculture? Yes ; the Agricultural Gazette and bulletins relating to farm work. 3637. Have you availed yourself of the loan of books by post on agriculture and kindred subjects from the Ifeiiding braiich of the Public Library 1 No. 3638. Have you any books on farming ? Yes. 3639. Have you a good and sufficient water supply 'i Yes. Warren HeUgh Scobie, fruit and grape grower, The Gardens, West Maitland, sworn, and examined. 3640. Chairman.] Are you a son of the late Mr. Robert Scobie, a former member of tlio Legislative Assembly t Yes, a younger son. I am in partnership on the land with my brothers. I have been sixteen year5 on the land at Maitland and Quirindi, except for a short time I spent in Sydney. I have 100 acres at Oakliainpton. I have had no education in agricultural except by attending schools for farms at the Hawkesb'ury Agricultural College, in 1906. 3641. Have you ever been eihployed on salary or wages in agricultural work? Yes. 3642. In what way have you gained your knowledge of agricultural practice? By actual experience and by observing the methods of practical farmers. I also read a fair amount of literature on agricultural subjects. 3643. Have you any family? Yes, three. The eldest is 6 years of age. 3644. Is there a tendency for young people on farms as they grow up to remain in the country or to go to the city or town ? The tendency is for young people to make for the big towns. People engaged in rural occupations have not the opportunities for pleasure which those in the towns enjoy. In the country their hours of work are generally longer and wages are lower than they are in the towns. Women on fai'ms have not the same conveniences for carrying on their work such as gas, watei-, electricity, etc., ns the women in the towns have. Farm life could be made more attractive if we had better roads, cheaper and quicker means of transport, more general telephonic communication, and, where possible, a supply of electricity for power and lighting purposes. There should also be water conservation, and more ports should be opened up. The Government should establish agricultural high schools in country districts, and students before entering them should spend at least twelve months at farm work under a competent farmer. Fruit con.signed by rail to market sometimes arrives late owing to delay in transit, which causes loss and inconvenience to the grower and buyer. In that respect there has been an improvement of recent years, but I would suggest that where practicable fruit should be forwarded by passenger train at goods rates. It is sometimes done from Maitland to Sydney when a full truck is consigned. 3645. Have you any local organisation in your district which endeavours to secure the mutual co-operation of men on the land for the improvement of the life of the community ? We have the Hunter River Agricultural and Horticultural Association, but it is not a very live wire. 3646. What are your principal crops ? Mostly table grapes — Muscat, Black Hamburgs, and Doradilla. I "row other varieties in less quantity. The peaches I grow include Hale's Early, Carmen, und other early varieties ; pears, Williams and Packham's Triumph. I also grow persimmons, and, as catch crops, straw- berries and asparagus. I cultivate lucerne, maize and potatoes. The average cost of production is about £22 per acre. My farm implements include 5 ploughs, £25; 1 disc plough, £40; 1 cultivator, £15 ; 1 cultivator (disc), £15 ; 1 mower, £25 ; 1 rake, £14 : 1 hay press, £60; 2 drays, £40; 2 vans, £40; 1 lorry, £50 ; 4 vineyard cultivators, £16 ; 2 harrows, £16 ; 1 roller, £8 ; hand tools, £25 ; sprayei-s, £30 ; irrigation machinery, £600 ; total value, £1,019. 3647. What are fair average yields : — Grapes, 2^ to 3 tons per acre ; fruit, 150 bushels; potatoes, 4 tons ; lucerne, 3 tons : maize, 60 bushelsi 3648. 200 WUnesses—Vf. H. Scobie ai d C. F. Garnsey, 30 November, 1020. 3648. How have, the seasons bsen in a period of five years 1 GooJ, had, and imlKTerent. A dry suuimer which does not suit farm crops is generally best for grapes if they are well cared for and in good land. There is less fungoid disease in the dry season and the market is better. That applies also to stone fruit, but t<3 a less extent. , - ,.,. • j_i ■ ^ j 3649. What is your system of cultivation? I rotate farm crops. I use fertdissr in the vineyards, and till the soil well. 3650. Have you had your soil analysed ? Yes, T know what its constituents are. 3651. Is there any Government officer in your district to whom you can appeal for advice on your agricultural work 1 No. , 3652. How far are you from the nearest town 1 One and three-quarter miles from Maitland. 3*553. What sort of communication have you 1 Good. 3654. Have you the telephone? Yes, and I find it a great convenience and monpy saver. ^654^. Do you receive the publications of the Department of Agriculture 1 Yes. 3355. Hive you availed yourself of the loan of books by post on agriculture and kindred subjects from the lending branch of the Public Library 1 Until last week I was not aware that such books were available on loan, but I am writing for a list of them. 3656. Have you any books on farming and veterinary work 1 Y.s, and T get the publications of th^ Department of Agriculture of New South Wa.es, West Australia, Queensland, and the United States. I also have other works. 3657. Have you a good water supply? Yep, 3658. You have some general remarks to make ? Yes, as follow : — Re Grapes. — All grapes grown are marketed as table jrrapes. Muse It Hambro crops very regularly and is a fine mirlcet grape, although rather subject to fungoid diseases, viz. :— black spot, downy mildew, and oiilium. Black Hambro does not now produce the crops it once did, but being very early and a good market grape, and not very subject to disease, it pays well. ' • n 1 1 i t j I)o,-a /i«a. produces good oroj'S, sells and car.ies well, but is subject to fungoid disease, especially black spot and downy mildew. - -. . t. ^ lil :ck Tol-aij, Bnyei' Keeper, Waltham Cro'H, Gorjo liltneo, and other varieties, are grown in lesser quantities, but are not so reliable as the three lirat named grapes. Peaches.— Or\\y eiirly varieties are grown as tho later varieties, besides clashing with the grape crop, are subject to attacks by fruit fly. They pay to grow and are sold locally. I estimate the cost of growing and marketing an acre of grapes as follows :— Two ploughings, £2 ; twelve sculHings, £4 lOs. ; pruning, £1 ; disbudding, lOs. ; tying, 1.5s. ; six sprayings, £1 IDs. ; sulphuring, 5s. ; fertiliser, 5s. ; hoeing, &o., ISs. ; harvesting cases, &c., £9 ; rental, £i lOs. ; total, £25. This is worked out on one acre, but as the same plant is used to work a whole vineyard, 1 have not debited 15 per cent, on sam^ No allowance is made for planting, as vines last many years, some here being 40 years old. There should be better facilities for agi-icultural education in the country. To get a secondary education in farming, one has to go to the Hawkesbury Agricultural College, 3659. Is the time ripe for an agricultural high school in this district? I think it is fully ripe. 3660. Very few farmers' homes have water laid on ? Very few. 3661. Nearly all of them use the old kerosene lamp? Yes. 3662. You are a farmer's son? Yes ; I worked for a couple of years in Sydney, but I got out of it. 3663. I suppose the farmers in your district are alive to the advantages of motor transport? Yes, they are, but the cost of fuel is prohibitive. We have a good road. 3664. I suppose you would like to see more telephonic coniraunication in the country? Yes, that would be a big help. I use it, and find it a great boon, 3665. You think there should be more ports ? Yes, nearly all the produce has to go lo Sydney for shipment. 3666. There is a port at Newcastle, yet most of the produce goes to Sydney? It did from up country where I came from. Newcastle, until the last couple of yeard, was not a good market for grapes. 3667. It has been suggested that Port Stephens should be opened up as a port ? It would be a better port than Newcastle. 3668. Is your fruit knocked about in the train ? Sometimes — more by the passenger train than by goods train. 3669. Big consignments you truck yourself? We have always to load the truck. Small parcels get knocked about. 3670. What is the cause ? Bad handling. There should be some check on it. 3671. Is there a local Chamber of Commerce? Yes. 3672. Aid a Cliambsr of Agriculture ? No, only the sojisty. The Chamber of Commerce is mainly composed of the business men in the town. 3673. The farmers should organise themselves? They are not educated up to it. 3674. Have you a pumping plant ? Yes, two. 3675. If you had a system of irrigation in the district, it v^^ould be of advantage to men like yourself? Yes, it is a bit of a gamble in this district. If you irrigate probably down will come the rain. I have irrigated my land and wished afterwards I had not. It is a big expense and kerosene is dear. What we want is co-operation. That is the solution of the whole difllculty. Charles Frederick Garnsey, farmer, Lugarbiae, Aberdeen, sworn and examined : — 3676. Chairman.] You have been some years engaged in agriculture ? Thirty-one years ; six years at Nyngan, two years Forbes, four years America, one year Young, four years Glen Innes, four years Wyalong, two years Warren, and eight years at Aberdeen. I am the owner of my holding, which comprises 41 acres. I have had no education at school or elsewhere in agriculture, other than in actual practice. I was imployed as a boy on East Nyngan station, and as book and storekeeper on Jemalong. In America I worked for wages on different farms for experience as o^■ersecr on Kikiama. T rented a farm of my own on Furracabad. I managed Monument Flats for J. B. Hill, and Uaby for The A. E. and 3677. 201 Witness— C. F. Garnsey, 30 Kovember, 1920, M. Company, Melbourne. I also mailaged Blairmore at Aberdeen for two years. I then bought Lugar brae, where I am living now. Both Blairmore and Lugarbrae had to be started from scratch. I have gamed my knowledge of agriculture by reading and study and from observation. 3677. Have you any family 1 No ; though I havs no family I have had my nephewsup for their holidays, and not one of them, after seeing the work doni! on the farm and the hours worked, has ever expressed a wish to go on the land. I had with me one young boy who was to inherit a farm at 21 years of age. He stayed with me for a few weeks when I was dairying and then left in disgust, saying he would sell the tarm as soon as it booamo his, sooner than put up with the drudgery of dairying. Another boy .stayed with mo two years, when ho got a job in Sydney, and ho now says that nothing would bring him back to the country. They all say the same thing— too much work for too little money. 3678. In what ways can life on f.inns bo made more attractive and satisfying to the families of farmers and settlers 1 We want a sympathetic Government, VVc want to get a just return for the amount of labour expended. "\Vc also want water con.servation, and, where possible, electric power. 3679. Do you labour under any disadvantages that you think may or should reasonably engage the attention of the State so as to diminish or remove them t Shortage of cash at a critical time is one. That is felt more now that wages are so high. What we need is a credit bank at which a farmer could get short loans to carry him on until his produce was sold. 3680. Have you any local organisation which endeavours to secure the mutual co operation of men on the land for the improvement of the life of the community, socially, industrially, and educationally? There is the Primary Producers' Union. 3681. Tell the Committee what crops you grow 1 Lucerne is my ultimate aim, but other crops have to be grown to keep the land in proper order. Without irrigation they are practically a failure. 3682. What does it cost you to grow and harvest your crops per acre ? Rent, £2 10s.; 15 per cent, of plant, £5 ; my labour at £3 per week, £4 ; wag^s, per acre, £2— total, £13 10s. 3683. What farm implements and machinery do you u.se, and what do they represent in cost prices on your farm ? Ploughs, harrows, mowing machine, rakes, thresher, baler, chafT-cutter, and irrigation plant, of the value of £630 12.S. lid. 3684. What are fair average yields of each crop on your holding 1 Four tons of hay per acre, value, £2 10s. per ton, or £10; 150 lb. seed at Is. 4d. per lb., £11 5s.— total, £31 5s. I have the following particulars respecting seasons over five years : — 1916 : net loss, £97 128. 3d. ; good year, starting farm, no lucerne. 1917 : net loss. £57 lis. lOd. ; average year, some lucerne. 1918 : net profit, £40 12s. 3d. ; bad year. 1919 : net profit, £54 10s. 8d. ; bad year. 1920 : net profit, £280 15s. 4d. ; very bad year, sold cows and sold lucerne and seed. 3685. What is your system of cultivation ? Lucerne being perennial no rotation is needed, but my land gets thorough cultivation. No fertiliser was used, but the lucerne was beginning to show signs of want of it. 3686. Have you had your soil analysed to find out what its constituents are in the way of plant food, humus, or its capacity to retain moisture 1 No, but I have se^ar-aa analysis of my neighbour's soil. The land is fairy rich in humus and lime. It does not hold moisture too well, being naturally drained. It is ideal for irrigation. 3687. Ts there any Government officer or other person in your district to whom you can appeal for advice on your agricultural work 1 Not that I know of. 3688. How far is your holding from the nearest village or town ? Three miles from Aberdeen and the railway. I have a good road, and £ have the telephone. 3689. Do you receive the publications of the Department of Agriculture? Yes. 3690. Have you availed yourself of the loan of books by post on agriculture and kindred subjects from the lending branch of the Public Library? Yes. 3691. Have you any books on farming ? Yes ; Coburn's book on alfalfa ; Steven's book of " The Farm " (three volumes) ; Morrison's " Feed and Feeding," O'Callaghan's " Dairying in Australia " ; Potts, on pigs ; and the " Farmer's Handbook " (two editions). 3692. Have you a good and sufficient water supply ? Yes. I had to sell my cows when I had no feed. There should be better conveniences for women who have to live on the farms. They see their sisters in the towns, where they have every convenience. We have been working with the Primary Producers' Union. We subscribe money to pay the Secretary. We are the only branch of the union that has done so. The farmers should organise themselves. 3693. Do you have lectures delivered to you? Yes, Mr. Wifngolz has lectured on dairying and Mr. Potts has lef.tures on pigs, but only five or six men will come to the lecture. I am the only witness from my district who has turned up at the Committee's meeting, though the Committee's visit was well advertised in the district. Education in agriculture is what the farmer wants. 3694. I understand there are big meat works at Aberdeen ? Yea. * 3695. Are they co-operative works? No, it is an English firm, and I think it is nearly all English capital. There used to be a bacon factory in my district, but it afterwards paid them better to send pigs to Sydney. EO the bacon factory was shut up. There was also a fellmongery in the district, but it also was shut up. Plaving read the interim report of the Committee I think Professor R. F. Irvine's evidence most sound. A credit bank on his lines is wanted, but I do not think the German or the American plan would work in Australia. The next thing wanted is education. The standard of the country schools should be equal to the standard of the town schools, so that parents could have their children educated near home. I believe Denmark has absolutely stopped the influx to the towns in this manner. Another matter is inability to get proper land. There are always plenty of applicants for every block of land offered for sale, but in nine cases out of ten the land is bought by men who already own a living area, and the man who would make a new settler is outbid and the country is no better off. In Australia the States are too big. In New South Wales Sydney has forty-eight members of Parliament, and the rest of the State forty-two. The producers' money is allocated by a Parliament with a majority of six in favour of the capital city. That breeds discontent, and naturally the men go where the money is spent to look for a job. The bush nursing scheme t 6325-2 C ?02 Witness&s—C. F. Garnsey and W. J. Saunders, 30 November, 1920. scheme should be encouraged by the Government, and a free maternity ward should be established in every country hospital. Mr. W. H. Bluf ord, farmer, of Aberdeen, who is unable to be present at the meeting of the Committee, has asked me to hand in a statement for him. It is as follows :— FARMERS' NEEDS. Water conservation in all rivers where practicable. .,....,. ,. „ Electrical power produced by stored water made available to farmers for driving irrigation machmery, &c. Higher education and technical schools in every convenient centre throughout the State, thereby giving the farmer's child a reasonable opportunity to gain an education that will help him to grapple with the many momentous situations which continually arise in his business. One of the greatest drawbacks to the farming community to-day is want of education If the Department would take the trouble to ascertain from their inspectors the problems coiitrontmg them in the execution of their various duties, they would find out that lack of education is one great factor. Uneducated farmers, like others who cannot understand, are naturally suspicious, and will not readily accept up-to-date methods of handling their products. Want of opportunity to secure higher education is responsible for many good farmers leaving their holdings and going to the city with their families, their intention being to stay a few years only ; but once the children get a taste of city life, and contrast it with their own mere existence, they invariably prevail on their good paren ^^° ^^ay^^ revision of railway freights with the object of fostering industry in the country, such as bacon factories, killing an% freezing, soap and caudle making, flour mills, and such industries that make a ready market for farmers^ products, thereby saving much loss and expense in haulage and materially assisting to cheapen the article to the consuming ^" '"'The immediate connecting up of all trunk lines to bring all parts of the State closer in times of plenty, as well as in time of drought, is essential. To make the lot of ihe farmer and grazier sound at all times, and to absolutely save him in times of drought, the Government should assist and insist that he he organised. This should be done by insisting that every farmer and grazier belong to an association representing his interests. For the benefit of both, one central head offlce should be formed, assisted and encouraged by the Government, but controlled and maintained by the associations themselves. ,, ^ , „ .^ i ^ -i, The objects of this office would be to watch members' interests generally, to keep an eye on all city markets with a view to protecting interests and avoid wastage. The one great work of this oflBce would be to continuously collect information from every individual branch of associations, and to keep each district informed as to conditions existing' m other parts, continuous information as to supplies of fodder, and ruling rates. It could be supplied on rail direct from farms for consumers, and would be of very great benefit, and worth thousands of pounds to people in drought areas, saving much loss snd damage. Hundreds of tons of fodder are sent 200 miles one way to the Sydney market and brought back past the very station from \7hich it was loaded, probably to a consumer not twenty miles away. The fanner who produced the fodder would not know that his neighbour 20 miles away needed it, and no doubt the consumer in that case paid £4 to £5 per ton more for it than he could have purchasad it for direct. There was the extra cost brought about by 400 miles freight and some greedy speculator's profit. An organisation like this would cost the Government nothing, and in times of drought it would save thousands of stock, and incidentally keep farmers and graziers from disaster. That is only one of many great benefits which could be worked through the association. The Government should where possible, where warranted, do away with the guarantee system and assist settlers in outlying districts to get in touch by telephone, as much time and hardship are caused by want of quick communication. For the comfort and safety of settlers' wives and children this is an urgent necessity in many places. Walter James Saunders, town clerk. West Maitland, sworn, and examined : — ■ 3696. Chairman.] You wish to make a statement to the Committee 1 Yes, I am here privately. 3697. Can you give the Committee some information about the market system in the town? Yes. I understand the Committee will inspect the Union Markets to-raorrow. I have been town clerk of West Maitland for eleven years, and during that time I have endeavoured to get the council and the farmers to move in the interests of the consumers and the producers generally, but through pig-headedness or some- thing the farmers will not lift themselves out of the old groove, and things are still as they were. 3698. How long have the Union Markets been established 'I About thirty-five years f I understand the farmers are charged 7^ per cent, commission on their goods sold by auction at the Union Markets. They take whatever price is 'tendered by the purchaser. As things are at present a farmer may come in at i o'clock in the morning. It is to his advantage to get in eai'ly so that he can get an early sale and get home again. In many cases the farmer leaves home early in the morning and gets home late at night. I have endeavoured for some time to have established in connection with the markets a system which will enable the farmer to pay, say, 2s. or 3 s. a week for a spa.oe allotment. A farmer's time from when lie leaves his farm until he gets back is worth to him, say, 1 8s. If he had a .space allotment he could sell his goods when he liked and at his own price. As things are now, all his produce is sold by public auction. 3699. Is the land privately owned ? Yea. There should be an inijuiry into tlit- market business here in the interests of the farmer and the consumer. 3700. Who controls the Union Markets ? They are privately controlled by three gentlemen — Messrs. Swan, Murray, and Hain. Those three gentlemen control one part of the sales, and Mr. Kennedy controls another section. The whole of the returns from the auction sales are confined to those gentlemen. Tlio business requires investigation. Bast Maitland is the Government township. Years ago I wont into the question of the public markets, and endeavoured to persuade the farmers to establish lucerne hay marlcets at East Maitland, but it wa,s like talking to a brick wiiU. They would do nothing, and yet they complain of leakages in their inward and outward freights. They are discontented and dissatisfied witli their returns, yet they have not ente/tained the proposal to establish local markets. 3701. At what time do the XTnion Markets open and close? They commence early in the morning and "O on all day till everything is sold. 3702. What volume of trade is done there t It is hard to estimate, but they would deal with 160 to 200 van loads a day. 3703. Who are the buyers attending the sales 1 Business people throughout Newcastle and the Maitland district. There are sometimes buyers from Sydney. As the markets :iie controlled at present the big drawback, as regards Sydney buyers is that there is no guarantee that produce exposed for sale on the top is the same underneath. Consequently wherl a buyer bids for a big consignment ho must allow for a margin. If the markets were publicly controlled every farmer bringing produce to them for sale would have to sign an undertaking that what he exposed for sale was a fait- average sample of what was underneath. The buyer would then have a guarantee that he is entitled to. 203 WEDNESDAY, 1 DECEMBER, 1920. The Coramittee met at West Maitland, at 11 a.m. Hon. Sni JOSEPH CAEllUTHERS (in the Chair). Hon. H. E. HORNE, | Hon. G, H. G. VARLEY. Hon. S. R. INNE8-N0AD. Thoma.s Ernest Peirce, journalist, West Maitland, sworn and examined :— oI«t" £.''"*»''"«"•] You are the editor of the Maitland Mercury, and you reside at Maitland 1 Yos. 3/ 05. You have a statement to submit ? Yes, as follows : StATK 'WiDK Or.GANISATION. 1 ^"T *'''^. '^•°-5"''l'"'>'tio" of Government activities for the benefit of operators of landed industries, in view of the backward state of agriculture throughout the State, and the necessity, daily growing more urgent for a larger output, per acre ot occupied land, especially in the vicinity of railways, I would recommend the division of the State into districts, and the appointment of each division of a permanent commission, whose duty it would be to bring about the eflfeotive occupation o? the area under their charge. This commiasion would make reasonable use, not now made of statistic prepared by (joyernmeut olBciala, from every locality. It would estimate, partly from the production of the best farmed holdings m their area, what might reasonably be expected, by the use of up-to-date methods, and consider the causes of failures in the poorly-farmed holdings. It would bring producers into touch with the agencies existing for their benefit, bring home to the backward ones_ how their production might be increased. Where there are general drawbacks, such as bad roads, defective marketing, inattention of (Government departments, it would set about to Bnd remedies. Where necessary it would recommend drastic steps to the Government to prevent land in its area being continuously held under ineffective occupation. It would consult with other divisions on matters of general interest for the betterment of the agricultural industry and bringing about a healthy rivalry between difTerent parts of the State in the matter of more rapid progress. It would advise individual farmers with regard to how they might benefit from the provisions made by the Oovernment for their benefit, as at present many go on for years without recognising what assistance they could get from Government agencies It would advise on matters of finance, co-operative marketing and purchasing, and would help the landholders of their area, especiaUy the small men, to secure the necessary credit to enable them more thoroughly to utilise their natural opportunities. Experience shows that, in many cases, self-interest is not sufficient to cause holdings to be farmed as they should be, and the State cannot afford to have its lands ineffectively occupied. Agencies, facilities, &c., provided by the Government for farmers ars often, strangely, little used, hence the need of something, such as these suggested commissions, to introduce the means of progress, as far as possible, to every holding, and to bring some kind of compulsion to bear where mor»l suasion proves insu93eient. The evidence provided by this Select Committee in itself would suggest a big and useful programme for these commissions, saving us from the disappointments that such committees are apt to provide of vistas of progress revealed, for which no effective means of realization materialise. » Aqricdltukal Education. We complain often and loudly of over-centralization, but in the matter of education, we deliberately adopt a policy that favours such centralization. Oir schools in rural districts are too much mere miniatures of town schools, and teachers of such schools are trained exclusively in the metropolis instead of in large provincial centres like Maitland in close touch with primary industries. I would suggest that, perhaps in connection with agricultural high schools in large country centres, that teachers should be trained for special rural schools that would prove feeders to the agricultural- high schools. These schools should be established gradually as the right kind of teachers "could be secured, and in rural centres where they could draw pupils from fairly large areas. The teachers of these schools should be paid salaries that would tend to mafee them willing to remain in the country, and where they possessed the qualifications they- might be appointed agricultural agents for their districts, such as are largely employed in the United States, according to the information supplied by the Chairman of the Committee. These schools would cultivate experimental plots, and conduct investigations that should prove of great value to the operators of primary industries of the locality, and train iip a new race of farmers, gg.)rdeners, &o., well informed as to the capabilities of their holdings. Farm book-keeping should be taught in these schools and all the up-to-date methods of marketing, including the wondrous possibilities of co-operation. Such schools should he an abundantly paying 'proposition for a country so dependent as we are upon the primary industries. In connection with these schools I would suggest a liberal use of the home cinema for providing information in pleasing form or primary industries in other parts, and for brightening the lives of young and old in rural districts. Good Koads and Better Transit Facilities Generally. Experience shows that generally shire ratepayers will not tax themselves sufficiently to provide tliemselves with the means to get their produce to market cheaply and quickly, and the State ivill need to take this matter in hand more determinedly. VVith more co-operation between shires the money now spent on roads might be made to yield a much better return, and a sound and enterprising loan policy might be made to revolutionise our roads and enable motor traffic to do its large part in the country's development. 3706. How long have you been in the district? Seventeen years. 3707. Has the agricultural industry advanced in this district during that time? I cannot say much about that. The farmers are conservative in regard to new methods. They are not progressive. 3708. Still they are getting on pretty well. They have splendid land here. 3709. A great deal of land in this district, not under agriculture, could be utilised for that purpose? Yes. 3710. Is the population in this district increasing? Yes, and in the mining districts the iiicrease has been enormous. There has been no such incrpase in any part of Australia since I have been here. 3711. Locally there is scope for more intense agriculture ? Yes, there is. They should go in for more intense culture to get the best out of the land. 3712. Is not the reason why the land in this district is not put to more intense culture because of the lack of facilities of modern agencies? Yes, that is one reason. That is why I rocommend the appointment of a permanent commission whose duty it would be to bring about the effective occupation of the area under their charge. ^ 3713. It has been stated that the uso of (he word "inspector" or "commissioner" has diminished the value of the services of such nn officer— that the farmers do not like the term "inspector." It has been suggested that such officers should be known as "instructors" or "advisers" and that they should go round the farms in a friendly way to give advice to the farmers ? Yes. 3714. The Commiftee visited iind inspected the Union Markets this morning. I suppose they are very useful for the district ? Yes. 37:5. The consumer can use them if lie chooses ; if he does not it is liis own fault? That is so. 3710. the middle man has no exclusive right to their use? No, but I do not know whether produce is sf>ld there in small enough quantities to attract the householder. ."1717. Have you alive iigriciiltural association in the town? Yes. 3718. The V have an energetic secretary ? Yes. Membership is small for an association that is doing such good work. 3719 204 Witness— t. E. Peirce, 1 December, 1920. 3718. Do you not think you should offer the farmers and the people more than a three days' show once a year as a return for membership t We have a big programme, but I would like to see more men in the association. 3719. You want a branch of the Agricultural Bureau. Instead of men having to join two bodies, let their membership of one entitle them to the privileges of both. The Agricultural Association should be a branch of the Agricultural Bureau, and one secretary could do the work of both? Yes. It seems to me that such a body composed largely of public men should be of more use to the public. They should do more than run an exhibition once a year. 3720. How long does your show last? Three days, and there is a sports day. The Ag.ijultural Bureau might work with the show committee. The Agricultural Association could arrange for children's competitions. 3721. Are there any agricultural educational facilities in the district ? No. A boy has to go to Hurlstone High School or the Hawkcsbury Agricultural College for an education in agriculture. 3722. Do you know that the Hawkesbury Agricultural College is crowded out ? Yes, I understand that. 3723. The same thing applies to Hurlstone High School ? Yes. 3724. Mr. Varley.] You have a Technical College at Maitland? Yes. We should make the primary schools rural instruction schijols. 3725. This district lends itself to an Agricultural High School ? Yes, it does. At the high school we should train teachers for rural schools. The Department seems to be against it. 3726. I do not think it is against it. It is rather a matter of finance. You will find that the departmental oflScers are sympathetic with the idea ; but it has not the necessary money — that is another matter ? Yes. We have ample scope here for an Agricultural High School. There is room for instruction in agriculture at the Technical College. 3727. The Agricultural High School at Hurlstone is helping to supply trained teachers in agriculture, as many of those lads go on to the Hawkesbury College, where they get bursaries ; from the Hawkesbury Agricultural College some proceed to the University? Yes. Some teachers take a great interest in agriculture. Mr. Bridge, at Woodville, had a splendid collection of children'.s plots, and the parents were so pleased with the work that they provided them with a plough and implem'^nt-i. 3728. Then he is promoted and removed ? Yes. 3729. At the children's exhibition of work at the Show Ground last night I noticed an exhibit from Pokolbin, which showed a groat interest in the agricultural industry ? That is so. 3730. Such a school in the centre of a vitioultural district could specialise in viticulture ? Yes, but a good teacher looks to a rise to a city school. He should be paid a sufficient salary to induce him to remain where he is. 3731. Have you noticed a tendency for the young people to leave the country for the tofl'ns and the cities and industrial life ? Yes. 3732. Have you any suggestion to make in that regard ? My idea is that if we get them young and get the teachers interested in agricultural matters, children will be imbued with a love of the land. Bub you will have to catch them young, and get them interested. 3733. In some of the public schools special instruction in technical work is given, but often three-parts of it is of the sort that inclines the pupil to industrial work. That is what struck me at the children's exhibition here last night. It seemed to me that four-fifth's of the work shown there would incline a boy to pursuits carried on in the towns. The Nature study work and the two exhibits from Pokolbin were the only exhibits, so far as I saw, associated with rural life. There was an exhibition of gas stoves there, which is of no practical use to the boy or girl who is going to live on the land. It seemed to me that instead of receiving instruction in the use of the gas stove, instruction in the use of the old camp oven would be more useful to them ? Yes. 3'734. Mr. Home.] With regard to the appointment of a commission, as suggested by you, have you in mind that they should be paid ? They would not be of much use unless they were capable men, and they would be paid. 3735. You have not in mind the existing Repatriation Council ? No. They could not do their work properly unless they gave their whole time to it. 3736. Mr. Innes-Noad.] Would not a deal of good be done if the country now.ipaperi pub'islml in the children's column extracts from works such as those of Jules Henri Favre, wliich are an o.luoation to both young and older people ? Yes ; I have considered that matter. I had a children's column in the Mercury in connection with the hospital. I wanted to get young people throughout the district interested in growing vegetables for the hospital. 3737. Does any copyright, law prevent you from publishing extracts of Favre's books, su3h as "Field, Farm, and Forest? ? " No ; I do not think so. Other papers do it. 3738. Mr. Varley.] The publishers will give permission ; all you have to do is to ask them. You may take all you want? Yes ; we devote a considerable amount of space every week to the matter wo receive from the Agricultural Department, and I am constantly cutting out bits about arbor cultiuv, and so on. 3739. Chairman.] Is there a school of arts in Maitland ? Yes. 3740. You ought to get the Country Gentleman, a valuable publication ? Yes ; I know it. 3741. Mr. Home.] Do you get articles from the Agricultural Department every week ? Yei. 3742. At one time they appeared in nearly all country newspapers, l*it three or four years a^o most of the papers ceased pubhshing them. One man who controls si.x: country papers told me that ho had not received them for a long time. Mr. Varley is under the impression that the Department ha^ discontinued sending them out ? I think they are still sent out. 3743. Chairman.] I think Mr. Varley's statement was that during the war the Departraiut had to cease sending out so many but that they had started doing it again ? I think they are still sent out. 11./ ^^-^ V2° y"" find that those notes are very widely read ?■ Ye^ I think so. I i-ope .so. 374.J. Chairman.] J, e saw at the Union Markets an old Chinaman who, it was said, used t . be a market gardener in the district years ago. We found him buying. Wo were told that there are very few Chinaman gardeners about Maitland now ? I think there are some in and around the district F. H, Fountain, 205 E. H. Fountain, secretary, Hunter River Agricultural and Horticultural Association, sworm and examined : — siLtfeth'^***''""''*'"' ^*^ ^°^^ society been in existence for many years? Yes, the next show will be ouf 3747 Is the society prosperous 1 Fairly so. But, in common with many other agricultural associations, it IS not as prosperous as it should be. 3748. Did the war affect you t Yes. VAn' S-j y?".^*^® to abandon the show 1 Yes, once, through military occupation of our ground. Q7K1 XT influenza affect you? It did. ; but we held the show with fair success. 07E.V T ^^'^ ^°" ^^^"^ ^^'^ ^ national show at Maitland 1 Not to my knowledge. lilt' S ^""^"^ ^'^ °^ Sreat advantage to the district if a national show were held in your town? Yes. 6io.i. Have you made application to have a national show held at Maitland? Many years ago I believe apphcation was made. It has been held at Glen Innes and at Berry 3754. Twice at Bei-ry ? Yes. 3755. Could you not get other societies to combine with you to work it up? Yes, I think it could be done. 3756. You do work together? Yes, as far as possible. 3757. Docs the local Agricultural Association give prizes to encourage children to take an interest iu agriculture ? I cannot say that we do. But a few years ago we used to get representative exhibits from schools. 3758. Is it not worth while off'ering prizes for exhibits grown by children where they like? Yes, I think it is. I will suggest it. 3759. The association is unable to afford big prizes ? Yes. We have offered prizes of £30 to £50. 3760. Has that not been sufficient to attract exhibits from the farmers? No ; the farmer in this district is too comfortably off'. 3761. Have you enough farmers as members of the association 1 No. we have not. 3762. A great number of farmers who go to the show are not members of your society ? Quite so. 3763. Have you considered the establishing of a Farmers' Bureau 1 Yes, there is a movement now for the formation of a bureau in this district. It is far better to have all these bodies linked up together. 3764. If the farmers could, on payment of a fee, get common membership of these institutions it would be a great boom to them 1 Yes, I agree with you. 3765. Air. I/orne.] What is the annual subscription of your association? One guinea. 3766. Mr. Varley.] Supposing the Government fruit expert attended the Union market sales, gave an address, and advised the peo]5le on matters relating to fruit-growing. It would go right home to them ? Yes. 3767. Are demonstrations ever given in the district in the working of farm machinery ? No. 3768. This district used to be a great one for ploughing matches ? Yes. As regards membership of our association, a certain percentaffe of members drop out each year. We sliould have 1,000 members, but I do not think we have over 400. 3769. Chairman.] Do you sell your "gntes"»? We keep them. The revenue was .£900 last year. I desire to hand in statements from Mr. Thomas Lantry, junior, farmer, of Hinton; Mr. George Grant, farmer, of West Maitland ; and Mr. H. S. Robinson, orchardis% of Somorsby, via Gosford, together with a rough statement from Mr. Michael Scobie, who has already given evidence, showing freights on bee-hives in New South Wales and Victoria. Those gentlemen are unable to attend the meeting of the Committee to-day. Mr. Scobie's figures are as follow :— Freight.5 on Bek-hivks. 100 Miles 2C0 Miles. 300 Miles. New South Wales. Victoria. Sew South Wales. Victoria. New South Wales. Victoria. £ s. a. 3 8 3 15 £ R. (1. 18 1 13 9 ■ £ 8. (1. £ s. il. 5 7 19 2 6 10 7 3 10 ! £ !.. d. 14 !) 8 5 5 £ 3. (1. 1 17 U 3 18 G The New South Wales rates are as per last Rate-book, lat January, 1320, with J added. Mr. Thomas Lantry, jun., farmer, Hinton, states : — I have been sixteen years at Berry Park, Swan Reach, and Hinton. I am the owner of my holding, whiolioompriaos 23 acres 3 roods, I have had no education in agriculture other than in actual practise. I have been employed on salary or wa"es in agricultural work. I have gained my knowledge of agricultural practice by watching the best methods of farmiiTg and in getting experience. I hive five in family, all going to school. Tlicy are rather young, but the tendency is for them to remain in the oonntrv. I would suggest tliat in order to make life more attractive to boys on the l.md they be given a small portion of land on which to grow vegetables, which would give them a knowledge of agriculture, and it wouhl induce them to bank their money f.>r a start in life. Some of the disadvantages we labour under are the high cost of freights in marketing our prodice at present rates, and in time of a glut, together -witli the high cost of labour, which puts our account sales on the debit side and prevents the steamship company frum paying big dividends. We have a local branch of the Primary Producers' Union. My chief crops are lucerne, millett, potatoes, and lucerne hay, which for the past two years has been a good crop. If we get a good growing season, with liieh freight and cost of labour, it will not pay the farmers to send it to market. It costs me per acre to grow and harvest : £13 for luceiue, £14 for potatoes, and mdletc £13 My farm implements comprise ploughing machines, rake, disc plough, common plough, harrow, roller, shim, one dray van. lorry, hay press, gear for pressing, harness, &c., value £200. My average yields are lucerne 4 tons, potatoes 3 ton's millet k ton to the acre. As regards seasons over a period of five years, two would be average, one above average, and two below average. I have no laid-out system of cultivation. I grow crops that I think are most profitable. I have not had mr soil analysed. There is no Goveinment officer in the district to whom I can appeal for advice on agricultural work I am 2 miles from the nearest town, i mile from the wharf, and 4 miles from the railway. The road is a fair one. I have not the telephone but I pmbably should have it if the cost were reasonable. I do not receive the publications of the Department of Agriculture, and I have not availed myself of the loan of books by post on agriculture and kindred subjects from the lendin" branch of the Public Library. I have a Veterinary book. I also have a good water supply. Mr. 206 Witnes»et—K H. Fountain, and F. W. Hain, 30 November, 1920. Mr. George Grant, farmer, of West Maitland, has supplied the following :— . I have been farming for 40 years at Rochend farm, Maitland. I am the lessee of my holding, which has an area of 40 acres. I have had no education in agriculture, except what I have gained in actual practice, and I have not been femployed on salary or wages in agricultural work. I have gained my knowledge of agriculture by having to make a living on the land. There are seven in my family, including one son. All are living in the country, but city attractions' have a great influence on young people. My principal crop is lucerne, but I grow potatoes and a little maize. I consider lucerne best adapted to my district. After the first year lucerne can be worked for £3 an acre, less cost. £16 4s. 6d. is a fair cost per acre for growing and harvesting generally. My plant consists of hay press, mowing machine, two drays, van, three ploughs, two harrows, three cultivators, one horse, rake, roller, seed seWer, of the total value of £200. A fair average crop of lucerne is 5 tons per acre per year, 3 tons of potatoes, and 50 bushels of maize. The last five years have been very dry. Lucerne has cropped SJ tons, but potatoes and maize have given a poor average. I go in for rotation of crops. My 'land is too dear to fallow. I use very little fertiliser. I have not had my soil analysed, and do not know its constituents. I find that the best way to retain moisture in the soil is by constantly working the land during dry periods. There is no Government officer in my district to whom I can appeal for advice on agriculture. I am IJ miles from town. My road is an indififerent one. I have not the telephone, but I should have one if the cost were reasonable. I receive the Agricultural Gazette. I was not aware that books were available on loan by post on agriculture and kindred subjects from the lending branch of the. Public Library. I shall make use of them in the future. I read the articles published in the daily and weekly newspapers. I have a good water supply. The following particulars have been supplied by Mr. H. S. Robinson, orchardist, Palotta, Somersby, via Gosford : — I have been over twenty years in the Somersby district. I am the owner of my holding, which comprises 227 acres. I was a special student at the Wagga Experimental Farm, and have visited California. I was employed on salary as manager on 100 acres planted with citrus fruits. I gained my knowledge of agricultural practice and orcharding in managing the above property, and in visits to Mildura and other parts of Victoria. I had three months' experience in California, and I have visited all the chief fruit centres in Australia. I have two in family. They are not assisting me in my work. Under present conditions, as regards marketing and lack of organisation of the industry, and labour, my children will be advised to look to something else than orcharding. Life on farms can be made more attractive to the families of farmers and settlers by better organisation, and less apathy on the part of the Agriculture Department in assisting in up-to-date methods of curing, packing, and marketing fruit, by going in for more scientific research work in diseases, by providing remedies for combating fungus diseases and insect pests, and by providing protection from possible introduction of fire blight, citrus canker, and other diseases fiom other countries. Those are our disadvantages. We should have Government assistance in acquiring information from other countnes as to methods and machinery. In my district there is a branch of the Fruitgrowers' Association of New South Wales. My principal crop is citrus fruit. Lemons have been unprofitable owing to lack of information and demonstrations as to how they can be profitably cured. I have just had to root out five acres of mandarins owing to brown spot, and no preventive methods are forthcoming from the Department of Agriculture. That means a loss of eight years and perhaps £800 in hard cash. Under present conditions it is impossible to estimate a fair cost per acre for growing and harvesting owing to almost daily increases in the price of fertilisers, oases, and all commodities. My plant consists of spray cart, harrows, ploughs, fruit grader, and motor lorry, worth altogether about £600. A fair average yield on my orchard is two cases per tree, or 250 cases per acre. Over a period of five years the average rainfall is 56 inches, which is sufficient. Dry periods may come one year In five or six. I use from 2,000 to 2,800 lb. of fertiliser per acre. I have had my soil analysed. The fruit inspector visits the district. I am eight miles from the railway station. The road is bad to indifferent. I have not the telephone. The public telephone is three-quarters of a mile away from my house. The charge to ring Sydney, 50 miles away, is Is., which is exorbitant. I have applied for the Agricultural Gazette monthly. I have availed myself of the loan of books by post on agriculture and kindred subjects from the lending branch of the Public Library. I have books of my own on farming. I have a good water supply. Poor quality fruit will never pay to grow. The cost per case of growing good fruit is so great that a bare living wage only ia obtained ; less than the present basic wage. "This is due to want of organisation of the industry generally, and apathy on behalf of the growers to co-operate. With a proper system of storing lemons the acreage would double itself in five years. Provided importations are prohibited, sufficient could be grown for Australian requirements at a cost that would, with co-operation, enable the public to buy at a cheaper price than to-day, and still show the grower a. better return than at present ; but it is essential that an officer appointed by the Agricultural Department and a member from the Fruitgrowers' Association of New South Wales should spend twelve months in California in studying up-to-date methods, styles of packing, and curing houses, machinery, etc. ; also matters regarding distribution and standardisation. These men should be retained, one by the Department, and one by the grower's association, to organise and place the industry on a sound footing on their return. 'J'he Government should assist associations in the same way as is done in Victoria, in providing 92^ per cent, of money required for erecting cool stores, packing houses, and curing sheds ; also allow the associations full control in the manage- ment, as is done extensively in Victoria. The export of fertilisers should be prohibited ; every pound should be utilised in securing greater production at home, instead of being sent away to enrich production elsewhere. An orchard tax of Gd. or Is. per case, collected by the Government and handed over to the Fruitgrowers' Association, less cost of collection, for organisation and the general uplifting of the industry, would assist greatly in bringing about some of the above suggestions and help to stabilise the industry. Frederick William Hain (Messrs. Swan, Murray, and Hain) Union Markets, West Maitland, sworn, and examined : — 3770. Chairman]. You have promised to give the Commif-.tee some information with reference to the operations of the Union Markets, including the amount of business done there t Yes. Wo soil practically the bulk of the produce grown in the district, including fruit, vegetables, potatoes, and lucerne hay. 3771. Can you give the Committee an idea of the volume of sales at the Union Markets in a year 1 I could not give you the turnover without going into figures. 3772. Tell us roughly? I suppose on an average the turnover would be about £1,-500 to £2,000 a week. I do not Ray that estimate is accurate. 3773. Other agents are acting as well as you ? Yes, 3774. You do the larger portion of the business 1 Yes, as far as auction sales are concerned in the produce line. 3775. How many producers come in to the raarket.i in the morning? It depends upon the time of year. I showed you a photograph of 180 carts loaded with melons. Melons this year are not yet ready. 37 r6. I suppose the number of carts at the markets sometimes run into hundreds 1 Yes. 3777. You would never have les.s than 100 there, and tliey are fairly well loaded? Yea. 3778. Buyers attend the markets from all parts of the district, including Newcastle? Yes, and the mining townships. They al.io come from the North Coast line and the Northern line. 3779. From how far up the Northern line do tbey come? We send stufl' as far as Glen Tnnes. The buyer romes down and makes his arrangements. 3780. You sometimes receive Queensland produce at the Union Markets ? Yes, we have had fruit there ; but it is not often that it comes this way. 3781. 207 Witness— v. W. Hain, 30 November, 1920. ri\l' \f^\^ case, of pineapples in the markets this morning ? We get them from Sydney. ^7sq' rP /"'■'^yJ^ou sometimes get pineapples from the Clarence along the North Coast line? Yes. 0106. Uhmrman.\ ihere is nothing to prevent the consumer making purchases at the Union Markets? q7°«/ q' '"'!.°P®" *° everybody. The sales start at 6-,30 a.m. in summer. We sell retail and wholesale. dim. bometiines you would sell a quarter of a case of fruit 1 Yes ; quarters, halves, or bushels, according to the way it is put up. i > . > o 3785. There must be 500 to 1,000 cases of fruit there to-day? Yes. llo^' a^^ *''"^* ^^^^^ ^^^^ S° "° ^^^ ^'^y ' ^^^' ^"^til the fruit has been sold. 3787. Sometimes thousands of cases are sold there? Yes. 3788. Would there be over 1,000 cases there to-day? Yes, probably. 3789. Produce is practically sold under the eye of the producer, if he chooses? Yes; we have the black leaf system, so that the producer knows what prices have been obtained. 3790. When you sell you are responsible for the cash ? Yes ; we guarantee to pay for whatever is sold. 3791. What is your rate of commission? Five per cent. 3792. Any statement that it is more than that would not be correct ? No, not correct ; that is, as far as the bulk of the business is concerned. Occasionally there is cartage, and that sort of thing. 3793. You do not charge additional on that ? No. That is for necessary charges that we incur. 3794. Your five per cent, is f/e^ crerfere commission. It includes a guarantee of payment ? Yes. 3795. What have you been getting for tomatoes ? Up to £1 Is. a bushel case. 3796. We saw tomatoes being sold there at auction at 2d. each ? Yes, I have seen them bring 8d. each. 3797. Have the markets been in operation for forty years? Thirty-five or forty years. 3798. They started as a co-operative concern ? I think they did. 3799. Your firm bought out the co-operative society ? Yes. 3800. They wore not able to carry on satisfactorily ? Yes. 3801. Would there be 1,000 people at the markets during the cours*^ of the da.y? Yes, on some days. They keep coming and going as long as the sales are on. There would not be a thousand every day. I should say there were 500 or 600 there every Wednesday. 3802. Is to-day an average day ? No, a small day. 3803. No public land is used there ? No. 380+. Is it private property ? Yes. 3805. There is no provision for a market site in the town ? No, although it has been talked about a lot. 3806. Have similar markets been established in the neighbourhood ? There were municipal markets at Newcastle. 3807. Mr. Innes-Noad.] Would you say that a large proportion of the local farmers dispose of their produce at the Union Markets, Maitland, in preference to sending it to Sydney or Newcastle? I think the bulk of the growers in the district market their produce at the Union Markets. , 3808. Chairman.] If they want to sell 40 or 50 tons of lucerne they would not send it to you? Yes, we often sell it for them. I sold 20 tons of lucerne just now, since the Committee visited the markets. 3809. By sample ? Yes. I sold it for delivery to-morrow. 3S10. Air, Varley.] It is sold before it leaves the barn? Yes. At the present time this is a better market for lucerne hny than Sydney. 3811. Chairmaii.\ How do you account for that? It is dry along the North Coast. Local conditions govern prices. As far as the Manning it is very dry. 3812. Mr. Home.] Has your business increased during the last few years? Yes, there is much more produce sold hero now than there was four or five years ago. 3813. Do yoa attribute that to an increase of population in the district? Yes. 3814. Mr. Varley.] Do the collieries operate in the local markets? They do not send to the local markets to buy, but we often supply them. 3815. Chairman.] Do you ever have a surplus left over ? No we never send anything home. We always sell it somewhere. 3816. Is there any system of inspection of the markets? We have the fruit inspector here. He is supposed to look after the fruit. 3817. Does he go there regularly ? Yes, I saw him there this morning. 3818. If he is not there, is it his fault? Yes, not ours. , 3S19. Any other food sold at the markets is open to inspection ? Yes, the Health Inspector of the town sees to that. 3820. That inspection is made ? Yes, he often has a look around there. 3821. The sanitary condition of the markets are inspected by the local Sanitary Inspector ? Yes. 3822. Do you ever get fined ? No, wo have not been fined. 3823. That U evidence that you have complied with the requirements of the law? We try to. .'iS-M. Some of the land on which the markets stand is leasehold, which prevents you from making the necessary improvements ? Yes, to a certain extent. We are now covering in portion, on our own land. 208 FRIDAY, 3 DECEMBER, 1920. |3uecnt : — Hon. Sir JOSEPH CAE-RUTHERS (in the Chaie). Hon. a. E. HORNE, Hon. J, TRAVERS, Hon. R. J. BLACK, Hon. a. E. HUNT. Hon. S. R. INNBS-NOAD. Albert .Alexander Watson, Acting Director, Returned Soldiers' Settlement Branch, Department o£ Lands, sworn, and examined : — 3825. Chairman.] You have been reque-sted to supply the Committee with certain information. Can you tell us the number of soldiers settled or in the course of settlement on the land under the repatriation scheme? 5,35G. 3826. What class of work are they undertaking? Mixed farming, wheat growing, sheep raising, hog raising, dairying, viticulture, fruit growing, poultry farming, vegetable growing, and tropical fruit growing. 3827. What is the average area ? The average area of Mocks acquired under the Crown Land Act for group aattlement is 76 acres. The average area of blocks acquired under the Closer Settlement Acts for group settlement is 508 acres. 3828. What is the average cost of the land? The average price of land acquired under the Closer Settlement Acts was £4 16.s. per acre, and undjir the Crown Land Acts for group settlement, £6 i3s. per acre. Lands acquired under the Crown Land Acts have usually been for the more intensive forms of agriculture. Lands acquired under the Closer Settlement Acts have usually been for mixed farming. 3829. What equipment and stocking is provided? EHch settler is eligible for an advance of up to £G25 for the purpose of stocking and working liis holding. That advance may he expended on clearing, fencing, draining, water supply, and general improvement of the said land ; purchase of implements, stock, seeds, plants, and such other things as may be deemed necessary to satisfactorily occupy and develop the land ; erection of buildings on land owned by such soldier or held by him under lease from the Crown or the Water Conservation and Irrigation Commission. 3830. What aieas of land have been offered for settlement by owners and others ? — I have mt a reply to that question ready.' Early in the history of the Returned Soldiers' Settlement Branch we were flooded with offers of land in all parts of the State. The number of offers became so great that ultimately we adopted the practice of scheduling the offers received once a fortnight, and we submitted them in schedule to the Minister. Practically the whole of the properties offered were regarded as unsuitable 3831. Do you say that practically the whole of them were unsuitable? — Yes. I would not say they Avere unsuitable for settlement, but for our purpose they were. Wo laid down the primiple that unless a property would provide ten or twelve home maintenance areas it was not worth our while bothering with it. The great majority of the properties offered wore too stnall for our purpose. 3832. The average home maintenance area is 76 acres under one form of settlement, and 508 acres under another? — Ye.^. Most of the areas offered were not large enough to warrant investigation being made, but if the Committee desire it, we will prepare the information although it will involve a lot of work. 383.8. How much land has been accepted as suitable for settlement ?— The area accepted as suitable under the Closer Settlement Acts for group settlements is 304- ,03V acres. The area accspted as suitable under the Crown Land Act for group settlements comprises 60,666 acres. The area accepted as suitable under the Crown Lands Acts for group settlement, but on which operations have not been commenced, is 67,993 acres. 3834. You have no reply to Question 8 ? — No. I have been away in the country and the information I have giverj the Committee was prepared for me in my absence. 3835. You do not know at the moment how much land has been rejected as unsuitable? — No, but if necessary the information can be obtained. 3836. The grounds for the rejection of land offered would be that the areas were not large enough for group settlement, or that it was unsuitable for the purpose of group settlement, or that the price was too high ! — Yes. Offers came in at such a rate that it was im,po.S3ible to inspect them in all cases. We should have needed a very large staff to do it. 3837. If you could show the Committee what land offered for settlement was regarded as unsuitable for group settlement, and what was regarded as too high in price, the information would be very useful? There are four ways of acquiring land for the settlement of returned soldiers — under the Closer Settlement Acts, The Closer Settlement Promotion Acts, The Crown Linds Act, and by direct purchase by Executive authority. 3838. Mr. Hume.] Under the Closer Settlement Promotion Act the returned soldiers themselves select the land subject to the approval of the Crown ? Yes. 3839. Chairman.] But there are a number of safeguards. The local Repatriation Committee has to report and make a recommendation, and the Departmental Officers have to inspect, and the Mi-nister has to approve ? Yes. 3840. Mr. Hunt] It would be very useful to us to know what areas of land offered to the Government were not accepted, the price put on it, and the district in which it was situated 1 If the Committee desire it I will endeavour to supply the information. With regard to advances to discharged soldiers under Section 7 of the Returned Soldiers' Settlement Act, I have the following information : Under Section 7 of tlie Returned Soldiers' Settlement Act an advance may be made to a discharged soldier with respect to any land which such soldier (a) owns, (6) leases, or (c) occupies as a share farm for any of the following purposes : — (a) The clearing, fencing, draining, water supply, and geieral improvements of the said laud ; (6) 209 Witneasai- A. A. Wataon, and C. C. Crane, 3 December, 1920. (6) the purohaaa of implomenta, alock, seeds, plant, and suoli other things as may be deemed necessary to satisfactorily occupy and develop the land ; or b j (c) the erection of buildings on land owned by such soMiers or held by him under lease from the Crown or the Water (conservation and Irrigation Commission, on auch security as the Minister may deem sufficient. It should be noted that no advance for improvements is made with respect to leased land. An exception, as a matter of policy, was made by the late Minister as regards banana leases. The object of the advance is to enable a settler in conjunction with his own efiforts to establish himself as a successful settler on the land. A settler makes an application for an advance on a form provided for the purpose, setting out his renuirements and also his land and financial position. A search is made against the man and his title. A report is obtained from a competent person as to the prospects of success on the block, also wliether it comprises a home maintenance area, and a recommendation as regards the items to be advanced for. It the search, financial position, and report are satisfactory, an advance is approved. Then the question of pvyments arises. No payments for improvcnjents are made until the work is completed, but progress payments, if desired, are made as the work proceeds to the value of the work then performed. A certificate is required from some person approved of by the Department that the work is done, and as to its value before payment is made. Payment would be made to the settler if he effects the approved improvements himself just the same as if done by contract. In fact settlers are encouraged to do this, as it provides for their maintenance. As regards- stock, with the exception of horses, only breeding stock will be provided (there have been a few exceptions on special representations of local committees, and where land is not suited for breeding stock). It is manifest that the money available, with other items of expenditure, does not provide a sufficient amount to fully stock up. The object is for a settler to breed up. The security over the stock also covers the progeny, which can only be disposed of with the Department's consent, and subject to conditions it may make. No advance is made to purchase stock covered by approval until the stock offered to or selected by the settler has been inspected and passed as satisfactory, both as regards age, suitability, and value, by some person approved by the Department. Implements and plant, although approved, will not be purchased until the settler is ready to use them. No advance will be made except to purchase implements outright. This is necessary for security purposes. Certificates as to value are required from some person approved of by the Department for all second-hand machinery. Receipts are required for all disbursements. The Department accepts no responsibility with regard to liabilities incurred by returned soldiers without its consent. Practically all payments are made either through the local Committees or our local managers or inspectors, who see the money reaches the proper channels. The Certificates are practically all from the same sources. No system of advances can be regarded as sound that is made on a £ for £ basis. As regards improvements of a permanent nature, the advance on £ for £ basis might be reasonably sound, but for stock, no financial institution would look at it. The £ for £ basis of advance up to £625 was approved by both the Commonwealth and late State Governments. The advances are secured on the land and over the stock or plant where the settler owns the land, but on leasehold • only over stock and plant, but subject to an Undertaking by the Lessor not to distrain on items supplied by the Department, The same applies where there is a mortgage as regards the Undertaking, but a second mortgage would also be taken over the land. Inspections of Securities are made in individual cases through the chairman of the Local Land Boards, and on the groups managers are in charge. It must be pointed out that practically since the commencement of soldier settlement a drought has been raging, and a change of seasons for the better seems to have begun. The scheme in operation is considered to be as sound as any sohemo for making advances on a £ for £ basis could be, where advances cover auch a range of items, some of a very depreciable kind. No advance is made until proper Undertakings are signed. 3841. Mr. B. J. Mack.] In what form do you make advances to returned soldiers? Do they get cash, or do you give them the material? They can make application for an advance up to £62.5. In tlie application he furnishes a list of the items he proposes to procure with the money. We go through his schedule, and we approve, amend, or reject it. If he has arranged to purchase a horse at a certiiin price, and if the price is within the amount that wo have set down, we will inspect it. If the horse is found to bi5 suitable, we will forward a cheque for the amount. 3842. Chairman.] You use the local body ? Yes, it works out very simply. If a man wishes to buy machinery such as a plough from a reputable firm of implement makers, we would not require to inspect. We estimate that, as a general rule, we pay all claims in connection with advances within ten days. There are instances when wo do not, but that is the general experience. 3843. Mr. Home.] As an otlicer of the Lands Department, do not you think that the principle under which returned soldiers arc bein- • n. 339-5' In what district of New South Wales have you experience as a bush nurse? In the lliverma antt at 4shford, Ilye Park, Lightning Ridge, . Upper Hastings, and in the Eastern Dorrigo. In all those districts I spent at least a month, and in most of them longer. , „ „„ , , ^ ,, 38&4 How many branches of the Bush Nursing Association are there? There were twenty-one at the , be^innin" of the year. Two or three new one.s were started about that time. J» Jj- 212 JHiiifM— A. Weir, 3 December, 1920. 3S95. You produce, from the ninth annual report of the N.S.W. Bush N>^'-«i"g/^^«°''''^t"^°";, f. ^''f ™^ of accounts? Yes, each district has a separate balance sheet. A comparison of the amounts laised locally and the amounts expended by each branch for the year 1919 are shown in the following table :— Amount raised Amount locally. spent. £ s. d. £ a. d- 1. Ashford 150 18 6 205 19 7 2. Batlow 228 13 11 ' 256 4 4' *Boomi'°. :::;:;"!:":.'; ^11 n l m \l lO (aeeounts for 74 months only) 5.' •Daysdale 127 3 9 175 12 1 6. •Eastern Uonigo 131 8 2 179 19 1 7. Eiiston 106 5 3 211 12 8 8. *Goolaaon£; over 300 over 390 9. •HlUgiw-e : 179 10 3 223 2 6 10. .Tindabvno 200 9 3 246 11 5 11. Lake Careeiligo Ut 5 10 167 (this district pays no board or residence) 12. Lightning Eidgo 189 16 11 234 19 11 13. Mount Hope.. 126 13 4 127 8 11 (this includes only 7 nionths salary and 9 months house- keeping). 14. Read's Flat 268 8 9 221 4 5 15. Rye Park 229 15 (i 270 5 9 16. Tumbarnmba 490 14 7 470 16 11 17. *Upper Hastings 137 19 194 .S 9 18. nVeabonga .... 57 16 10 16S 18 7 (this includes only 11 mo.it.ts s.alary) £.S.36H 17 11 £4 ,033 2 9 II "r III ■■■- * Nuraesi Salary £120 a year. 3896. Does the association charge nursing fees and for drugs 1 Yes, they all charge a little. 3897. What are the bush nurses now paid? Oue hundred and fifty-six pounds a year, wiih board and lodging. 3898. Do you find it difficult to get bush nurses 2 Yes, very difficult. 3899. The life is not attracuve enough! They do not like going into the bush. 3900. The pay is not an inducement? I think it is all right now ; it has baen increased. It used to be £140 a year. 3901. I suppose tliere is difficulty in gutting accommodation! Yes, in many districts. 3902. Accommodation has been improved in some localities 1 Yes. 3903. The bush nurse has to drive a long way from home '! Yes ; and sometimes she has to ride a long ■way. On the Upper Hastings I had patients 8 miles apart. I had to ride 16 miles a day and I lost sleep at night. That is a very mountainous district. In the flat country it is easy to drive, and people will call for the nurse and take her home. 3904. The main society was founded by the late Lady Dudley 1 Yes. 3905. That has a fund to its credit 1 Yes. 3906. It receives a Government grant ! Yes. 3907. It has £2,000 or £3,000 invested in stock, and a revenue of about £1,700 a yearl Yes. 3908. Now it has £10,000 allocated by the British Red Cross ! Yes. But the interest on that is to go towards helping soldiers' settlements, where there are bush nurses in those settlements. 3909. A grea*; deal more work could be done in the way of Bush nursing if more money were available ? Yes. 2910 Is your work appreciated in the bush! In some districts it is. I do not think it is n.ppreciated sufficiently. In the main it is not appreciated enough. 3911. It may be that all bush people do not know how to express their appreciation ! I find in some districts the people are very grateful, and that in others they are very ungrateful. 3912. Do you find that the bush nurses do good work! Yes. 3913. Do they ever save life! Yes. During my time in Victoria I saved at least one life each yea" I worked there, and there were others who might have become seriously ill if they had not received nursing attention. 3914. You give first aid in the bush ? Yes. 39 1 5 In some cases you would afford practically the same assistance as a doctor would ! Yes, in some cases. I have saved the life of patients by taking them to a doctor in time. 3216. Does not the bush nurse often avert the need of a doctor ! Yes. But if left to tliemsielvcs bush people may put off getting a doctor until it is too late. 3917. The bush nurse can attend to many minor accidents ! Yes. 3918. You dispense .some medicines? We are not supposed to mako up mixtun s. We get the concentrated mixtures from Elliott Brothers. We dispense the ordinary drugs, but not mixtures. We are not qualified dispensers. 3919. You do dispen.se medicine, a little 2 Yes. 3920. Supposing a person in the bush was suffering from a bad attack of gastritis ; you would have a remedy handy. Whether it meant dispensing medicine or not, you would give it to the patient! Yes. 3921. You are within telephonic communication with the doctor ! Yes. 3922. Have you had any trouble with the doctors because of what you do ! No. At the commencement o; the system some of the doctors were against bush nursing. They thought that some of the nurses took too much on themselves. 3923. I have heard it .said that sometimes the bush nurse recommended a cer'tain docior ! I do not think that is so now. All the doctors are very nice to the bush nurses, and do all they can to help them, especially the younger men. 3924. AJr. Inms-Noad.] You do not mean to say that a doctor would encour.ige a bush nurse to prescribe medicine. He would discourage it. He would tell the nurse that she was exceeding her province. You perhaps, have not done it 1 We are supposed to know when a patient requires a doctor, and how to advis* the doctor. 3925. Chairman.] Ihe bush nurse is supposed to be equipped with common and simple remedies, and the use of thpm is left to her discretion ? Yes. 3926. 213: Witnesaei—A. Weir, 3 December and H, E. Lnffer, 1 Dedfembetl, 1^20. 3926. Mr.tnnes-Noad.\ The B M.A. has taken up the attitude that nurses should not prescribe medicine. 3927. Chairman^ How far from Ashford is the nearest doctor ? At Inverell, 30 miles away by road. There is no rail communication. 3928. Boomi 1 At Mungindi, 40 or 50 miles away. 3929. Eastern Dorrigo? At Coff's Harbour, 13 miles by road. 3930. Euston ? 50 miles, at Balranald. 3931. Jindabyne 1 About 35 miles, at Cooma. 3932. Lightning Ridge t At Walgett, between 30 and 40 miles away. 3933. Mount Hope ? I am not quite sure, but it would be a long way. 893i. The average distance of those places from the nearest doctor would be 30 or 40 miles, and if it were not for the bush nurse there would often be no medical aid within reach ? Yes ; a nurse would act in an emergency, and she usually has a 12-mile radius to work. Very rarely would the nurse travel 30 miles. I think the bush women suffer most from want of domestic help. When they are ill they can get no one to look after them. 3935. Does the bush nurse give advice on hygiene? Yes. 3936. Do you find that women in the bush have a hard life as compared with the life of women in the town 1 Yes. 3937. Do you think their life is harder than that of the country man 1 I do not know. They make it harder sometimes. 3938. Is it not a fact that a doctor in many cases being 30 or 40 miles away is a great deterent to women going into the bush 1 Yes. 3939. Has the bush nursing system overcome that feeling to some extent? Yes. 3940. There is better health in the country than in the city ? • Yes. _ 3941. Would you say there is less infantile disease in the country ? In the warmer country districts there is more gastro-entiritis in children. 3942. Less in the cooler districts ? Yes. 3943. What causes the larger infantile mortality ? Improper feeding. We find that bush people do not feed their children properly, even when we advise them how to feed them. They will tell you that their babies will not take milk, and they will give them black tea and meat. The bush babies lack the ordinary baby foods. 3944. The mothers require instruction on those matters? They do, but they will not always take our u Q VICG 3945. Are they not glad to get instructions 1 In a few cases, but I do not find that they are ^'^^J^ anxious about it. They will say that they have brought up so many children that are quite all right, and that they do not worry about the baby. 3946. You find that doctors are co-operating with the bush nurses ? Yes, especially the younger men. 3947. In some districts there would be two or three doctors? Yes. 3948. In a case where medical aid is required would the nurse take the patient to a doctor or sena tor him ? Usually we take the patient in to the doctor. 3949. Has the nurse to exercise discrimination in regard to the choice of a doctor ? Yes, we ask the patient what doctor he would like to have, if there is more than one in the town. ,. , ■ <. 3950. Do you find that bush people appreciate the services of the bush nurse? Yes, many districts would not be without them. Many which have the services of the doctor would not be without their bush 3951 " Mr Innes-Noad.] The maternity mortality rate in the country seems to point to the mothers being without proper care. Do you think the bush nursing system should be continued, or, as an alternative, that maternity wai-ds should be established in country hospitals 1 Yes. j Tv,r 3952 One proposal is that the Government should equip all hospitals with maternity wards My contention is that the nurse who goes into the home is the best agent towards reducing the maternity mortality rate. Do you agree with that opinion ? Yes. u •. u 3953 Are you of the opinion that the bush nursing staff should be largely increased, and would it be an advantage to afford the nurses an opportunity of obtaining tuition in hygiene under the iruby King 395*rDo Suhe bush nurses hold the certificate in midwifery ? Yes, we all have it. We all have the 3955!'a11 thetush nurses can attend to midwifery cases 1 Yes, to normal cases. No nurse is supposed to attend to abnormal cases. , ^, « rn xt a i v„ ^„ „* +Uo r V T TJ A 3956 Mr Home 1 All your nurses are members of the A.T.N.A. 1 Yes, or of the R.V 1 .N.A. 3957: Mr. InmtLad. | They hold both the general and obstetric nursing certificates ? Yes ; although we have one or two with only the obstetric training. TUESDAY, 7 DECEMBER, 1920. ^ustni : — Hon. Sir JOSEPH CAERUTHERS (in the Chair) Hon. H. E. HORNE, Hon. R; J. BLAOK, Hon. S. R. INNES-NOAD, Hon. G. H. G. VARLEY, Hon. a. E. hunt. Henry Edward Laffer, vltlcultural expert, pl^'s Wines, Limited, sworn, and examined :- , „r, •.• A „„ ^,n1,^ 1 T im viticultural expert to Penfold's Wines, Limited. I Sst Srw^»yT»"£rjr£,. in y.» P-.t p.»«.,. , Siac 1918. 1 ... ,lti™lt™. exp.^rt in South Australia f"""™ ^^^^ *° ^^^^ 214 Wiinest—B, E, Laffer, 7 December, 1920. 5960. What previous experience had you ? I was born in an orchard, my father being a piohee^ wine-: grower in South Australia. In 1907 I went to Boseworthy College, South Australia, and I was retained on the College staff in a junior capacity. I subsequently succeeded Professor Perkins as viticultural expert in South Australia. 3961. You have made viticulture a special study ? Yes. 3962. Have you been abroad ? No, I have not been out of Australia, but I have kept in touch with viticultural matters all over the world. The object of my evidence before the Committee is_ to stress the' importance of viticulture in its several branches to the general scheme of primary production. It is not my desire to claim any special consideration for the industry over other allied agricultural pursuits, but to show that it has its distinct sphere of operation in the development of Australia's rural wealth. We must _ reaUse that Australia is to day faced with enormous financial problems, and others, of which the with-" drawal of our rural population into the cities is not the least. If these problems are to be met and ' overcome it can only be by populating our country with a contented and prosperous yeomanry. In order to achieve that desirable object, the soils of the country must be adapted to those pursuits which will yield the maximum of value in production in every instance. While it would be foolish to advocate close settlement on land essentially adapted to wheat and wool growing, we must at the same time admit that the best use is not being made of land, which, although producing these two staple articles, is well adapted tq forms of more intense culture. Certain portions of New South Wales and of Australia have proved So well adapted to vine-growing that no other form of production equals it in return per acre. There are notable instances in every State where the vine-growing districts are among the most closely settled and prosperous. Much has been said relative to the area required to support a family. 1 maintain, that a man, to be a successful viticulturist, does not need to become a mixed farmer. His work is to grow gra;pes, and it will pay- him far better to devote his energies to the production of an acre of grapes than to grow , an acre of hay. This latter he can more profitably buy from the man who specialises in hay-growing. With tkat in view, 50 acres of good land under ordinary dry or wine-making conditions, constitutes a good average holding, while under irrigation conditions, 20 to 25 acres is a one-man proposition. 3963. You consider that 50 acre^ of suitable land constitutes a good average holding for grape-growing? I consider that 30 acres under vines is a one-man proposition, under ordinary wine-making conditions. You can take the average crop as 2 tons to the acre, which represent 300 gallons of wine. To-day wine is bringing from 4s to 5s. per gallon, which, at 5s. per gallon, means £76 per acre ; for wine at 4s. per gallon it will be £60 per acre; 4s. would probably be the average price to-day. 3964. That means that 30 acres will afford a return of £1,800 at 4s. per gallon, and £2,250. at 5s. per gallon 1 Yes. His working expenses would be roughly £20 per acre. That is the outside limit. 3965. That would be £600 for 30 acres? Yes. 3966. It means a return, excluding working expenses of £1,200 and £1,600 respectively? Yes. 3967. What about capital charges? On an average, £8 per acre. 3968. There would be a period when the grower would get nothing ? Yes. He would get his first crop ; in the third year, two and a half years from planting. Existing labour conditions are extraordinary, but it would cost him from £80 to £90 to bring the vineyard to the end of its fourth year. 3969. Would £4,300 represent the capital cost of the vineyard ? Yes. 3970. Does that include the cost of a house ? No. That would cost £300 to-day. 3971. Can the whole capital cost be put down at £5,000 ? Yea. 3^72. You could add 10 per cent, on that? Yes, that makes £5,.500. 3973. Fifty acres of land, of which 30 acres would be under grapes, is in your opinion, a one-man proposition. An acre of vines in full bearing produces 2 tons of grapes. They will produce 300 gallons of wine. At 4s. to 5s. per gallon the gross return would be £1,800 and £2,250 respectively. The working expenses would be £600. £1,200 is the net return at the 48. rate, and £1,650 at the higher rate. The capital cost of the vineyard in going order, with a house, can be fairly represented by £5,000. Ten per cent, on the outlay of £5,000, to recoup the grower for interest, taxes, rates, and other outgoings, would amount to £500 a year. It would, on your figures, leave a net profit of between £700 and £1,1 00 a year ? Yes ; and there is no objection to the grower increasing his area up to 50 acres, provided ho can pay for the labour. 3974. In a fair season 2 tons of grapes to the acre is an average crop ? Yes. 3975. What would be the crop in a boom year ? Three to 4 tons in a good season. 3976. That would give 450 to 600 gallons to the acre? Yes. 3977. In a bad year ? It would come down to 1 ton. 3978. Could the grower easily market all that? Yes, there is no question about that to day, nor is there likely to be for many )-ears to come. Where rich land, suitable to table grapes, is under consideration,- 10 acrc rci,'arded as a v< ry hiw rate of consumption. At the same time I understand from prominent fruwcrs that it is not so many years since they had to di.sposc of tiieir grapes as low as 2s. fid. per case. To:day much higher prices prevail, which might, I think, be. attributed to two main reasons. First, the destruction 215 . Witneea—n. E, Laffer, 7 December, 1920. 4estruction of the ^inpyards by the phylloxera in the county of Cumberland veiy materially reduced the supply (secondly, the great increase in the population of Sydney has created a very much more active Unarkot. Consequent upon prevailing high prices considerable extension of areas has taken place, and I think It might aaefely be predicted that the aupjjly will be doubled within the next three years. Failing some better system of distribution in the near future, I fear that the market will be glutted as in the pa^t, ihat would be regrettable, as it would most likely result in unremunerative prices to the grower. Where the grower to-day receives 6d. per pound for his fruit, the consumer pays from Is. to Is. 6d. to the retailer. Admittedly there should be a much greater consumption of grapes in this country, but, at the same time, it must be remembered that the centres of population are the controlling factor. Some scheme of distribution, equitable to both grower and consumer, is required. Although it is desirable that the people shall secure fruif cheaply, the producer must b(! safeguarded. Low prices have never yet tended to stimulate production, and though the cheap loaf may be a fine thing in theory, if it is secured at the cost of the producer it is a national calamity. Unfortunately, so far as grapes are concerned, the question of export is exceedingly limited. 3981. Chairman.] Has it ever ocjurred to you that the manner in which table grapes are exhibited for sale in the shops deter a lot of people from buying them? Yes. A better means of marketing is required. A good quantity of table grapes becomes broken in transit. Muscatel grapes grown in. the county of Cumberland are only suitable for the Sydney market. At one time table grapes were sold from 2s 6d. a half-case. Now the price is 15s. When we come to dried fruits in the form of currants, raisins, <&c., there appears to be a greater prospect of expansion. These fruits, the Zante currant, sultana, and muscatel, are grown in special conditions of climate, and are principally confined to the irrigation areas of the ^^veral States. The possibility of keeping dried grapes over moderately long periods is a valuable factor in this section of the industry. Notwithstanding that, I fear that rapid expansion of the dried fruit market is questionable production, and is approximately double that of local consumption. Prior to 1 914-1-5 the surplus was put through the distilleries. There was no export, for the reason tha* Greece and Asia Minor held the markets of the world. War conditions cut oflf these supplies and Australia was the only country from which dried fruit might be obtained. Shipping space was made available to transport the fruit to Great Britain, and Australia's surplus vanished like magic. Returning to normal conditions, it is doubtful if any appreciable portion of this trade can be maintained for the reason that the British consumer is not going to pay Is. per pound for Australian currants when he can get Grecian at fid. Possibly markets may open up in the East, but the people there are not by nature fruit-eaters and it i^ therefore a question of education, Canada is too close to California to be seriously considered. America has in the past imported currants from Greece, but to-day they are just commencing to grow their own supplies. Greece sees serioys over production in the near future, and it is an offence to plant Zante currant vino,'? to-day. Further,, the Government of that country is subsidising growers to graft a portion of their' currants to wine varie^es. Vast areas for drying are still being planted on the Murray in Victoria, and I must admit to having gravQ fear§ for the future of dried fruits. I would much prefer to be optimistic in this matter, and I would wish to see the most sanguine hopes for the dried fruits industry fulfilled. It appears to me that the stability of the Industry as a whole rests upon the wine for a variety of reasons. Firstly, the wine market is more or less a world's market. Secondly, wine is not so subject to sudden market flnctuations as are the more perishable products of the grape. Thirdly, simplicity of export in casks obviates the necessity of expensive, packing. In all the States of Australia there are districts which woul,d appear to have been designed by Nature to grow wine. In the majority of these districts there is no other form of production so remunerative to the settler. In but few cases do the table grapes, dried fruits, and wine overlap, largely by reason of soil and climatic factors. The two former demand fertility of soil with an ample rainfall or irrigation. The wine districts have mainly soils of only average fertility and a fair rainfall. The markets for wine arelocal and for export. With regard to the former,,although we have gone but a small way in the matter of using wine as a beverage, there is yet a distinct inclination of late years in this direction. There is also a greater tendency towards the use of the lighter wines. A lot has been said at times with reference to the alcoholic strength of our wines. As regards the dry types, clarets and hocks, the best wines of these classes compare very favourably with the high-class wines of the older world. When we consider the sweet wines we find that Australian representatives are lower in alcoholic strength tiian those of Spain and Portugal. I feel safe in asserting that on average quality, Australian wines compare more than favourably with those of other countries. The export trade for Australian wine appears to be exceedingly bright, the only fault being the shortage of supjilies. The efforts of the several British firms have developed a great amount of trade in Great Britain, but they all complain to-day that they have difficulty in securing supplies to meet established trade. When in Australia recently Mr. Cuthbert Burgoyne, managing director of P. B. Burgoyne ifc Company, stated that if Australia had to day many times its present quantity of wine available, the London market could absorb it all. The export trade to London was built up by means of a heavy type of dry red wine, but of late years there has been a growing demand for wines of higher quality. .1982. Did Mr. Burgoyne mention the names under which they are sold 1 No. 3983. Is it correct that only a very small quantity of our wines is sold in England as Australian wine? No, i think it is the contrary. Burgone & Co., of South Australia, and other firms market Australian wines as Au.stralian wine^. J t is peculiarly Australian wine, and it is a remarkable wine. It is sold • largely through the grocers. . . -r-, , , , -n , r^ :?984 Who are the largest buyers of Australian wines m England ? Burgoyne & Co. mM Are you sure that Burgojaie & Co. do not blend our wines with other wines ? Mr. Burgoyne assured the recent Viticultural Conference in Sydney that those wines were marketed as a purely Australian product. 3986, Do they buy it largely in bulk 1 Yes. , „ rri. u . u •. mi 39S7. If they bought Lindemann's wine, they would not sell it as such 1 They would not buy it. The wi'ne they buy is made in the Rutherglen district. .,, ^ , • , , j-a- 3988 Wiatever they sell is sold as Burgoyne wine ? Yes. You will find no wine merchant differentiating asS-egards the grower. They would not blend them with inferior foreign wine. It has been stated that they are blended, with Algerian wines. , , . , r, u • 4. ■ *.i, • i i, r .4. ' ii. ., 3989. You have heard that they have be3n blended With French wines to increase their alcoholic Strength ? I have heard it, but I do not hold that it is so, 3990. 216 WUnets—'S, E. Laffer, 7 December, 1920. 3990. Mr. Black] I think they are blended in Prance and sold in England 1 That may be to the advantage of many French clarets. 3991. Chairman.] I was at the Franco Exhibition in 1908, and if what you .say is correct thero has been a great change since then. At that time our wines were largely used, for blending with French wines, and they M-ere not then sold as Australian wine ? A large quantity was sold as Au.stralian wine. 3992. I was told that Australian wine was not popular in Europe, and that it was sold under a French name as French wine. That was twelve years ago ? The trade in Australian win'i is now establisbed. To-day firms which import Australian wines must sell tUem as Australian wines. 3993. "When in England I met Mr. Inglis, general manager of the London and North-We.stern Railway Company, the largest railway concern in England. It controls many railway refreshment-rooms and hotds, and they run dining cars on some of the trains. T asked him if he would take a quantity of Australian wines for use on the railways. I .sent him a number of cases. He said that he would make an eflfbrt to use them, but that public opinion had to be considered, and that lie dare not go against it? That is seme time ago. 3994. I visited Lyons and Company's great cellars. One of the partners of the firm was an Australian. I asked him if he could not do more with our wine. He replied that if it was sold as Australian wine people would never ask for it? That has all changed now. The demand in London for Australian wine is large. There has been a great improvement in Australian wines. During the last fifteen or twenty years thtre has been a wonderful increase in the export of Australian wines. In the old days our wine wa.s a glut on the market. 399-5. Do we produce more dry wines than wc did ? Yes. 3996. When in England I asked Lord Jersey to help me with Australian wines. He said, " Let me see what you have got." I showed him what 1 had. He remarked, " The taste here is against the sweet wines ; here they want dry wines " ? More than 90 per cent, of our export wine is dry wine. 3997. Howf would you class claret ? It is a dry wine. 3998. Mr. Innes-Noad.] Is not a quantity of wine shipped from Australia as Australian port a bhnd which has been made up with shiraz, muscat, or other wine ? No. 3999. Is Australian port a true-type variety of Australian wine ? Yes ; the quality of the wines g' own in the Hunter Yalley has astonished many vLsitors from Europe, including the French mis.sion under General Pau, which recently visited Australia. Mr. Burgoyne states that there is a growing deujand for these wines in England at as good prices as those obtained for high-class continental wines'. We have the climate and soil, we have the people to grow the wines as well as the organised business to mature and market them, but there is to-day a feeling of uncertainty engender! d by the eflForts of the prohibition party which is preventing normal expansion. One result of the keener demand for wine is a much greater price to the grower. Whereas but \ery few years ago excellent young wines could bo bought at Is. per gallon, similar wines to-day, and pof-^sibly not 80 good, are bringing up to 5s per gallon. Con.sidering that these wines have afterwards to be matured and marketed, the price is high to the consumer. Although no one desires to see the day of low prices to the producer return, at the same time these prices are fictitious, and nothing but increased production will create a true balance of values. The cost of bringing a vineyard into bearing to-day, that is to the end of its fourth year, will be in the region of £100 per acre. Considerable labour is involved in the many operations throughout the year. Taking an average crop as 2 tons or 300 gallons fier acre, and an average price of 4s. per gallon, the return to the grower is very handsome. I have gi-eat faith in the future of the Murrumbidgee Irrigation Areas for all sections of grape products, but more particularly so for wine and brandy making. The soil is excellent, and by the judicious use of irrigation water \cry heavy crops can be grown. Instances are already recorded of yields up to 11 tons per acre. The wines produced will be of the bulk types, many suitable for ex|)ort, while I believe that excellent spirit will also be made. A considerable area has been planted to wine grapes hj soldiers upon these areas, in blocks ranging from 5 to 10 acres in extent. From these they will secure a fair return in the third year of growth, representing about the quickest money which they can possibly secure. Other markets which ar« seeking Australian wines are Japan, China, Java, New Caledonia, &c. These markets were largely held by German wines in the past, but the taste for Australian wine which was cultivated durin"' the war period can be maintained provided that we can supply the orders. Great Britain has given a preferential tariff on Dominion-grown wines over those of foreign countries, the rates being Is. 6d. per gallon better in the case of the former. That is equivalent to £11 per ton on grapes. Australian brandies have estab- lished a reputation for their purity, and this reputation is very jealously guarded by the wine-makers themselves, in resisting attempts to use any but grapo-spint and grape-sugar in wine manufacture. The by-products of the wine industry are important, and not the least of the^e is cream of tartar, the whole of which is derived from wine. Brandy and spirit distillation are inseparable from wine making, and these latter have assisted very materially to build uf) the irrigation areas along the River Murray. We are a community of .5,000,000 people in a country with potentialities to produce for 100,000,000. Such jiroducfa of our soils must go out to the people of other lands who need them until our own population waxes and grows on the fruits of our industry. In these, wine can come within the first three. 4000. We make vinegar? Yes, it is largely made in South Australia. JOOl. Can you tell me the quantity of cream of tartar made in this country? No, but Australian wine to-day would not be capable of producing one-tenth of the cream of tarter used in Australia. 4002. Chairman.] Are no cordials made from wine ? No. 4003. I have read that since prohibition in America cordials are being made from grapes ? I do not think so. Grapes in California have brought up to £20 a ton. Prior to prohibition they brought £2 per ton. Those grapes are being turned into wine for medicinal and sacramental purposes. 4004. The Country Gentlemai from which I get a lot of information is not a prohibition paper. It states that in America cordials are being made from grapes. They are making a lot of raisins, too? Yes • wine grapes do not make good raisins. 4005. They are making raisins, too ? Possibly they are. I would preferably not make raisins from wine grapes because they contain too many seeds. 4006. You can make raisins from wine grapes ? Yes, you can make them from any grapes. 4007. You can make cordials from wine grapes ? Yes, unfermented wine. 4008. Witness— U. E. Laffer, 7 December, 1920. 4008. In America a big trade is being done by Italians who buy partially dried grapes. They take them to their homes and make a sort of wine out of them, and they evade tho prohibitiou lawl Yes. If you give a person who does not know what it is a l,ott,le of unferraented grape juice, almost before he can find out what It IS it lerments, and he will become intoxicated. The best typ'e of wine grown in the Hunter wu '!v®'^o . * ° high type Continental wine, to the German hocks, and the Bordeaux clarets. Whereas the Portuguese and Spanish winegrowers fortify their wines up to 42 per cent, of true spirit, the Australian law permits only 3.^ or 30 per cent, of alcohol. 1009. What is the percentage of alcohol in our ordinary clarets? Ten to 11 per cent., and in hocks about the same. 4010. Can we produce a wine like the vin ordinaire of France ? We could if there was a demand for it. The Australian taste is for a sweet wine. The Australian is not like the Latin. In a country like Australia,_ with our temperate climate, people should be able to go into any reputable. caf 6 and drink a glass of wine of limited alcoholic strength. 4011. One cannot obtain vin ordinaire here? There is no demand for it. Claret is a good wholesome thirst quencher of low alcoholic strength. There is nothing more thirst-quenching than a glass of claret with water. The French prefer to drink it mixed with water, half and half, as a beverage. 4012. Mr. Black.] The high alcoholic strength of our ordinary claret is against it ? The best types of our Australian claret are no higher in alcoholic strength than the best types of France. The best place to make vin ordinaire wine would be in the irrigation area on the Murrumbidgee. 4013. While we give our children lemonade or weak tea, the French women give their children weak wine ? Yes, it is a matter of education. Only 10 per cent, of the huge vintage of France is first-class. We compare favourably with any other wine country in the world. The 90 per cent, balance in France is practically all vin ordinaire. 4014. Chairman.] As Government Viticulturist part of your work was to watch diseases and advise as to treatment? Yes. 4015. That work is very essential 1 Yes. 4016. Are the vines very liable to disease? Yes, more so to-day than they were five years ago. It is becoming more difficult, and it is one of the prices we are paying to-day for modern means of transport. Though Australian conditions will never compare with European conditions, as regards their seriousness, our troubles are with us, and when tho seasons are unfavourable we shall have difficulty. Downy mildew was not seen in Australia before 1917. It showed itself here in a wet season. 4017. It can be combated by spraying ? Yes. 4018. Are we sufficiently staffed to deal with this work 1 There is only the Viticulture Expert. 4019. He has to attend to the whole of the State ? Ye. He generally supervises the viticultural work. He has to attend not only to that, but he has to supervise nurseries where phylloxei-a-resisting vines are raised at Howlong, and Griffith, in the irrigation area. 4020. Has he no assistance ? Only the managers of the nurseries. 4021. Can you make any suggestion to improve the organisation and to cope with the disease? The Viticulture Expert should have an understudy, so that he will be independent of that work. 4022. Would it not be wise to give all fruit inspectors a course of training ? Possibly it would be. 4023. Nearly every farm-house in certain districts has its own grapes growing ? Yes. 4024. Many suburban gardens have grape-vines also ? Yes. 4025. They all need to be inspected ? Yes. Practically the only place in Australia which is training viticulturists is the Roseworthy College, South Australia. There the viticultural course is a part of the college curriculum. 4026. It is desirable there should be a viticultural course in this State ? Yes, but you need the right conditions. The Wagga Experiment Farm would be a good place. 4027. It has been advocated at Maitland 1 Yes, but I think Wagga the most suitable place, as they have a vineyard there. 4028. It is also handy to Howlong and Culcairn ? Yes. 4029. There is a good deal of land in the neighbourhood of Sydney that can be largely used for vine- growing ? Yes, for table grapes. 4030. Land which is practically useless for anything else ? Yes ; but if a man wants to grow table grapes he must grow grapes of quality. My knowledge of the County of Cumberland is that it is patchy. 4031. What soil characteristics are required? For table grapes you want a deep, fertile soil, with good rainfall. 4032. And potash ? It induces heavy fruiting, but we can apply it artificially. 4033. If we had a proper soil survey of the State, one could mark off suitable districts ? Yes, it would be possible to do so. 4034. That would be a great help ? Yes. 4035. Why did you leave the Department? Because I had a better opportunity outside. 4036. Not enough pay in the Department 1 Yes. . 4037. Did you like your work there ? Yes ; I had nothing against the Department. I received every possible assistance from the Under Secretary. 4038 You felt the necessity to improve your position these times ? Yes, we must. 4039. Mr. Varley.] What would be the working expenses on the vineyard after the first four years ? £12 an acre, roughly. . ,1 j. . « iu 1 • ^ 4040 Mr Innes-Noad] You have expressed rather pessimistic views regarding the tuture ot ttie ariea fruit industry What is the reason ? The method is fairly good, but we have not the market. 4041. We produce the finest lexias, sultanas and currants? Yes. Our currants and sultanas are the finest in the world. That has been proved in the London market. 4042 to ob faced with a carry-( that was distillation. „ , , , , i j iu 1 1 i-„4 4043. Would it not be to the advantage of Australia if the surplus stock were forced on the local market at a low price ? That is a matter for the grower or the A.D.P.A. t 6325-2 E ^^^^' 218 Wiinessei—S. E. Laffer and H. Sutton, M.D., D.P.H., O.B.E., 7 December, 1920. 4044. The local demand could be popularised if surplus stocks were forced on the market 1 YeB ; but why should the producer be forced to sell at a loss ? i „ ^aa i. • miK 4045. Would they make a profit by distillation? Yes. We had (xj carry over 12,00Q tons in 1915. Great Britain then turned to A-ustralia for dried fruits. Shipping was made available, and we got on to the 1916 market. There were not then enough currants in Australia to make a Christmas pudding. Our export trade grew from then on. Our sultanas have sold to £110 a ton on the London market Tliey averaged £69 a ton in 1918. Our dried fruit export jumped from 22,000 in 1914 to 300,000 in 1918-19. Greece can land currants in London at £18, duty paid, while we cannot land them under £40. Harvey Sutton, M.D., D.P.H., O.B.E., Principal Medical Officer, Department of Public Instruction, sworn and examined : — 4046. Chairman.] The Committee has statistics which show that the health of children in the country is better than that of children in the towns. We would hke to have from you any information upon the subject that you can give us? Whereas Sydney has reduced its infantile mortahty i-ate 50 per cent, m twenty-four years the country death rate hap not been reduced in the same ratio. For Sydney the rate was twice as high twenty-four years ago. t lu- i 4047. The rate in some districts is fifty-one and fifty-four, and Sydney is seventy-five ? Yes ; 1 thinfc the average is about seventy. What has struck me is that during the last twenty-four years the Sydney rate has improved by leaps and bounds, largely owing to health legislation and education, but the country rate has not improved in the same ratio. 4048. It has not gone back, and it still shows better statistics? Very little better. 4049. The country statistics include such places as Broken Hill, which is very hot in summer ? Yes, 4050. The North Coast and South Coast districts show fifty-one and fifty-four. Temora is lowj too ? Yes ; there are parts of Sydney where the rate is very low, and parts where it is very high. My work frotn 1909 to 1915 was in Victoria, arid I saw a good deal of the rural conditions there. As far as I ban gather from my nine months' experience in this State, New South Wales closely approximates to Victoria. Tlie average child in the country is a better physical specimen than the average city child. That is shown by the country child's height, weight, and his fewer defects. I have the latest figures of the Departmental statistician. On the graph I have here, the green line represents country schools, where the children affe distinctly better in health. The green colouring shows the small country, the black the large country, and the red the metropolitan towns. Physical defects in the child interfere with its educational progress and health. Of town children we notified, for example, 66 per cent, of children for defects other than dentdlj but in country children 50 per cent. only. Our figures correspond with our testing of recruits during the war. Forty-five per cent, were found to be physically fit, or four out of every nine. The coiintry child has the advantage of adequate playing space, denied to city children, and so fewer country boys are delinquents. Distance protects him to a certain extent against infectious disease, and the absence of over- crowding and other city conditions saves him to some extent from syphilis. On the other hand, he is more liable to special diseases unknown or relatively so to the metropolis. Syphilis is very uncommon in country children. 4051. Do you refer to contact syphilis ? Congenital. The country child is more liable to certain disBdfefes which are uncommon in the metropolis. The first of those diseases is typhoid fever, but it is considered that most of the Sydney cases are imported. I have seen in country towns up to 7 per cent, of children who have had typhoid fever before 14 years of age. Trachoma or sandy blight is prevalent in children in the western districts of New South Wales and in the Wimmera district, Victoria. At Stawcll and Horsham, Victoria, there were cases of trachoma, a dangerous disease of the eye, and very often eases of squint occur, which means that the sight of the eye becomes practically useless. We found 3 per cent., 4 per cent., and 5 per cent, of the children in those towns so infected, and 12 per cent, to 13 per cent, infected with conjunctivitis. I believe that is paralleled in various parts of the State. 4052. That is a communicable disease ? Yes, it can be communicated by means of the common towel. 4053. By school towels? School towels have been abolished. At Stawell 178 girls, or 5 per cent., wore infected with trachoma, and 39 per cent, with conjunctivitis; 583 of the total population, or 2 per cent. had trachoma, and 17'5 per cent, conjunctivitis, requiring treatment. At Horsham the figures were 422, or 4 per cent., who sufiered from trachoma. Squint was more common, there being 16 per cent, of eighty- one infant boys, and 13 per cent, of 300 girls affected. The nearest oculist was 120 miles and 76 miles away respectively. In respect to the eyesight of boys and girls in New South Wales I hand in a graph illustrating the proportion of children with normal and defective vision in the metropolitan and country districts. 4054. Your statistics relate to cases noticed during inspection. The number in the year would be very much larger ? Quite so. That is in the towns. They are worse as you go out of town in the case of ophthalmia. 4055. A systematic campaign would prevent that? Yes, but it would be a difficult campaign. I have a list of schools to which drugs were sent for treatment of ophthalmia in 1919, as follows : — List of Schools to which Dbuos were sbnt for Trbatmext op Ophthalmia. 1919. Name of School. Soloids. Frogmore Tibooburra Menindie Wanoon Carathool , Mendooran (Mr. Luckie) Tomingley Euabalong Wombat Elouera Wilpinjong Tallawang The Glen 2 bots. 3 „ 3 „ 3 „ bot. 1 bot. Ointment. 6 bots. 12 „ 9 „ 3 „ 2 „ 2 „ 6 „ 4 „ 3 „ 4 „ 1 „ 4 „ District. YaaS Broken Hill Broken Hill Hay Hay Wellington Forbes Forbes Young Dubbo Mudgee Mudgee Inverell List 219 List op SrFrnnT« -n. T^ ' '^'*"^-'H. Sutton, M.D.. D.P.H., O.B.E., 7 December, 1920. List op Schools to which Dk.os w.kk sent pok Tkeatment op O.n.u^^^.-conU.ued. 1920. Name of School. Soloids. Tingha Bonshaw Boggabilla Dand^loo Gilgandrq, Ardlethan Tin Mines !(Camarah Ardlethan Barren Junction Pilliga MnUaley Uflngal Milparinka Ctulgong Glen Inues Trewilga bot. Oiptraent. District. 6 bots. 6 „ 6 ,, 3 „ 4 „ 3 „ 3 „ 4 „ 4 „ 3 „ 3 „ 3 „ 6 „ 3 „ 3 bots. Inverell Inverell Inyerell Dubbp Dubbo Wagga Wagga Wagg^ Wagga VVagga Wagga Narrabri Narrabri Narrabri MviBwell brook Broken Hill Midgee Armidale Forbes Out of twfenty-one Victorian country hospitals three alone attempted to deal with eye conditions. With regard to goitre there is a special incidence in country areas, particularly on the western slopes and table- lands. It is prevalent at Glen Innes, Tenterfield, Tamworth, Inverell, Bathurst, Cowra, Orange, Armidak-, Moss Vale, Queanbeyan, The Rock, Grenfell, Deepwater, Holbrook, Woolbrook, Manilla, Nowra, Adelong, "Warren, and Eagleton. The water supplies are, by consensus of opinion, the cause, but exactly how goitre is carried is not entirely known. Infected water will cause it. A certain number of cases go on to exopthalmic goitre, found chiefly in women, which is a peculiarly disabling and fatal disease in advanced cases, requiring a very severe operation to cure it. Deaths from it are much higher in the country, and cases in the towns are mainly country cases. In goitrous -districts we meet with other thyroid abnormalities, such as deficient secretion with dullness; and absence of secretion, causing idiocy and imbecility. Common ailments of country children are defects of vision, and of hearing, adenoids, enlarged tonsils, defective teeth, hernia, and anajmia, which are a great handicap to health and training. 4056. Goitre is said to be caused by the water supply 1 Yes, although the cause is not exactly known. Infected water will cause goitre. Tank water and river water 'are two suspicious sources of infection. Athough tank water is nominally rain water, it cleans the roof, and river water may b3come infected from human habitation. To obtain treatment for these children in the country is difficult, as it is a matter of distance. I am trying to oljtain a list of oculists practising in this State outside of Sydney. There is one at Lismore, Orange, and Nevrcastlo. At present the country is a hunting ground for the spectacle vendor, who fits on the child's eyes glasses which are usually unsuitable. Dr. Willis, my predecessor, was seized with the necessity of attending to these children, and he instituted the system of travelling clinics. We have six travelling dental clinics, one travelling hospital, and a travelling opthalo- mogist. For the country clinics we spent .£8,101 last year, and treated 17,396 cases at a cost of 9s. 4d. per head. Of that amount the travelling hospital cost £2,123. The cases treated numbered 2,281, or 18s. 7d. per head. The six travelling dental clinics cost £5,017, the number of ca.ses treated being 12,033, or 8s. 4d. per head. The Metropolitan Dental Clinic cost £1,505, cases treated 3,893, cost per head, 7s. 8d. The travelling opthalmic clinic cost £960, the cases treated numbering 3,082, and the cost per head 6s. 3d. The total cost of the clinics was £9,606, and the total number of cases treated 21,289. Many of the children treated by the travelling hospital were treated for more than one defect. The distance travelled by our pflBcers to various schools in 1918 has been 6,135 miles. The average distance travelled daily was 28 miles, and the average cost per child IBs. 7d. The districts covered by the travelling hospital in(3lu(Jed Goulburn, Yass, Albury, Waggei,, Hay, and Broken Hill. The approximate distance covered by all dental clinics was 7,201 miles. Unless the treatment is brought to the children it is difficult to see how they can be treated. 4057. Could not the Department subsidise some of the local dentists ? There would be great difficulty. First of all, there are no dentists in many of the ou(i-back places. Children might have to travel 30 or 40 miles to the nearest township, and in many towns there is no dentist. I believe in the clinic system. The movement came from the dentists themselves. I do not know whether it is because they were not keen to attend to children, or that it was because of their unwillingness to have cut rates, but they have not been in favour of the subsidising method. The clinic cost has been 8s. 4d. per child for, say, two fillings a,nd four extractions, I do not think you would get a local dentist to do the work for that money. 4058. I think the only way to reach some children is by the subsidy system ? It is questionable whether it would be economical. 4'059. Even if it were not, it is better than nothing t I think if we extended our clinics we could do it. There is the problem of distance. I see no other way to do it than by sending the treatment to them. The total number of children treated in the country in 1918 was about 17,000, and we notify every year about 25,000. We expect to have three more clinics next year — 8,779 children were notified for adenoids last year, and 25 per cent, obtained treatment from local doctors at considerable expense. We find that the hospitals do not cater for that type of case, and it is a question whether all hospitals should not be subsidised to do the work. Physical defect puts the school child in the country under a peculiar handicap which its cousin in the city does not suffer. „ ,^ ,^ , , , 4060. Given sufficient funds, that is a problem that can be overcome ? Yes. Yes, we should provide a travellino- clinic to deal with cases of adenoids, where local facilities are not available by subsidy or otherwise. 4061 The difficulty of obtaining medical treatment in the country must have some efiect on the drift of people to the cities' Yes. Rural depopulation chiefly affects certain ages and one sex. From 12 to 45 the most a.ctive periods of life, the majority are in the city, which is a big dram on rural resources. If there are 100 men in a country district, there are probably eighty women, and if there are 100 men in the. city there are probably 150 women. That may explain the high birth-rate in rural communities, it being n&lv double that of the town, women tending, as being the rarer product, to marry earlier in the country, •' which 220 Witness— K. Sutton, M.D., D.P.H., O.B.E., 7 December, 1920. ■which at once makes a larger family possible. The problem, then, is largely a woman's problem, and thd difficulties show out partly domestic and partly as affecting the children. Nothing is more characteristic of many rural districts than (he up-to-date implements of the farm, such as harvesters, ploughs, cream separators, &c, and the primitive housing conditions. These often amount to insanitation, and cesspits and pan-closets represent the only means of disposal of human refuse. You will see heaps of manure and rubbish-heaps which breed innumerable flies. The refuse water is allowed to run freely out through the back into a foul quagmire. Baths, owing to scarcity of water — if they exist — ^are rarely used. The house structure is primitive. The kitchen has only a galvanized-iron roof against the heat of the sun, and becomes heated like an oven. There are seldom any conveniences for hot water, and every drop of water has to be carried to the kitchen. The rooms are invariably small, and the windows are not fully used, so that stuffy bedrooms are the rule. The danger of fly-breeding and exposure of infective material in pan- closets, with resultant carriage of infection to food, shows itself in typhoid, dysentery, and digestive disorders which are much more prevalent in the country. The fly is also the chief carrier in the case of ophthalmia, sandy blight, trachoma, and other eye trouble. With a small expenditure of £50 to £100 every farm-house could, and should, have properly constructed rain-water tanks with conical bottoms and tap at bottom, and a large hole at the top, for cleaning. The tap for use should be 1 foot up on one side. The hole at the top should be covered with a gauze filter, and there should be an interceptor for dirt carried in by first rain shower. Every house should have a service tank and a force-pump or windmill, with pipes and taps fitted to house and garden. Each house should have a garbage tin, with proper cover for rubbish and refuse. There should also be an incinerator for the destruction of all refuse. Every country house should have a grease tap and soakage pit for the disposal of waste water. There should also be a manure pit, with concrete sides, with storage earth packing and borajx spraying, to preserve the manurial value, and yet prevent fly-breeding. Dwellings in the bush should be made fly-proof. Other things which mean more comfort and better health are good lighting systems, kerosene stoves, fireless cookers, and open air sleeping verandahs. Scientific attf-ntion to these rural requirements would do much to relieve the discomforts which bear hardest on the women, and the wasteful work under poor conditions. To bring a child to a suitable treatment centre might be both difiicult and expensive as to be quite beyond the average parents' resources. Almost every day letters reach me from rural parents asking me what they are to do about the notifications sent them of defects in their children. On the other hand, to give them departmental treatment is correspondingly difficult and expensive. If you are going to control the housing and domestic conditions in the country you are going to do it through educating the children. With regard to child labour in the dairying districts of Victoria, we have noticed that many children shovved a lifeless, listless condition, attributed to their milking duties, and distance from school. Of a ni;:r.ber of children examined by a school medical officer, eight showed a distinct backwardness in class, which seemed to be the characteristic feature, and two of the eight were stunted in development owing to early rising and physical exertion. The listlessnass interferes with the children's school progress, but their nutrition as a rule does not suffer as they have plenty of wholesome food. Better control should be exerted in the dairying districts. Accidents often occur in the bush. In the Dorrigo district nearly every child in the school had sustained a severe cut from an axe or a broken arm or leg. The number of deaths from accident is higher in the country than in the town. 4062. Perhaps that is because of a lack of first aid 1 Yes. 4063. Have you any experience of bush-nursing ? In Victoria, I had. In one district, 40 miles from the nearest doctor, the bush nurse had a little settlement of 200 or 300 to look after. She does good work, and she travels many miles. Her main work is midwifery. Children are taught first aid and simple hygiene. The British Red Cross has given £10,000 towards bush-nursing in Australia. 4064. Mr. fforne.] It has been stated in evidence that that money was to bo devoted to soldiers settlemrnts ? Primarily, not solely. 4065. No conditions in Australia parallel some of the Mountain districts of Europe, as regards the prevalence of goitre? No, perhaps not ; but in Eastern Gippsland there are numbers of cases. At Omeo within sight of Kosciusko, there is a lot of it. Dr, Dunhill, in Melbourne, has performed 300 operations for a very advanced type of goitre. 4066. Do men suffer from goitre 1 Yes, but it is distinctly rare. It crea'es nervous trouble. It is very uncommon in Sydney. You notice a phy.siological enlargement in girls at the age of about 14 or at puberty, but the disease is uncommon in the metropolis. 4067. Chairman.] Why is it that the North Coast and South Coast districts arc comparatively healthy? We are at present investigating the district incidence of disease. 4068. Mr. Innes-Noad.] Is the maternity death-rate much higher in the country than in the metropolis ? Yes. I agree with Mr. Purdy's statement to that effect. " -^ 4069. The septicaemia rate is higher in the country than in the city ? Ye.s, I would believe it to be so 4070. In your opinion, is an extension of the bush-nursing system advisable? Yes. Note.— For graphs indicating lieightB weights, and eyesight of school children in Metropolitan and Coimtrv Distrirta and Map showing centres visited by Travelling Hospital, see Appendices to Fifth Interim Report of Committee THURSDAY, 521 THURSDAY, 9 DECEMBER, 1920. Hon. Sie JOSEPH CAREUTUERS (in the CuairV Hov. Y'^. T. DICK, Hon. G. H. G. VARLEY Ho.v. A, SINCLAIR, Hon. g. R. INNES-NOAD Hon. H. E. HORNE, Fox. J. TRAVERS, Ton, R. J. BLACK, Horace Alexander Smith, Government Statistician, recalled and further examined. 407L Chairman.] You have some statistics to hand in ? Yes. I promised to have taken various divisions of the State, statistics relating to deaths of children under 1 year of age per 1 from 1915 to 1919. The figures are as follows :— Deaths under 1 yeab of Age per 1,000 IJirtus. Mean of 5 years, 1915-1919. out for the ,000 births .2^ §■■§ -a sit III II la III m 1 . CO ■as 111 pi III u 2 . III Si il w •5- "a IIS '6 c s ■3 1 CD 3-3 ■6 •8 •8 V3 1-1 5-8 170 •6 4-3 26-2 3-8 ■6 2-5 2-9 ■4 •D ■3 3-2 1-S 4-4 12-1 •3 3-8 21-8 30 ]'2 2-2 2-6 •4 ■3 •6 2-7 1-0 3-9 8.5 •6 3-3 19-6 6-0 ■7 2-7 3-0 •5 ■2 ■8 2-4 2-1 3-7 16-6 •5 3-2 28-3 4-5 ■9 2-3 2-1 ■4 ■2 "7 2-7 i'j B'8 9-7 ■8 2-4 21-6 0-5 ■0 2-6 4-4 *2 •6 2-5 3-3 4-B 8-9 3-6 31-5 3-8 •1 3-2 4 5 3 ■1- 1 1 2-2 2-7 5-2 130 ■6 3-9 27-8 4-3 •3 3-3 6 5 ■3 "■6 2'9 2-] 4-4 11'4 ■9 3-1 26-8 4-7 •8 3-1 2-1 "7 "■8 3-4 2-1 3-8 12-3 1-1 4-5 25-1 5-4 ■5 2-1 3-7 •4 -4 ■3 3-0 21 3-8 13-9 •5 2-7 23-5 4-6 •8 3-8 1-8 4 •1 •4 2-1 1-6 4-1 8-3 •2 3-4 S2-6 4-0 •8 2-0 30 •2 2 13 1-0 8-0 3-3 14-6 ■8 1-8 26-4 3-8 1-8 23 3-1 •3 ■3 ■6 3-1 2-2 6-5 9-8 •9 2-1 25-7 6-2 2-1 3-7 31 ■R ■4 •6 1-4 1-2 4-1 10-2 •4 2-3 17-0 4-9 1-1 2-5 fl-9 1-1 •4 ■4 3-6 1-9 4-7 33-6 ■9 4-5 33-1 2-3 1-3 2-6 3-3 •4 ■2 •7 2-6 2-0 4-3 11-9 ■6 S-3 24-4 4-4 -8 2-7 33 •6 •5 ■7 2-0 Tuberculous dtsrases ConvulBions of Infants . . Bronchitis Pneumonia and pleurisy Diarrhoea Entaritis and Gastritis Hernia 4-9 14-5 •6 3-7 26-13 4-2 ■7 2-6 Congenital malformations Congenital debility and premature birth Accidents of birth and other Accidents " AU other diseases ,,... Total 68-5 580 61-6 66-0 58-5 415 67- L 09-9 CO-6 63-9 63-5 52-2 619 C4-e 49-9 97-2 62-6 04-9 Average summer rainfall, 1915-19, points. 345 249 393 361 332 215 198 361 166 180 221 115 141 86 •• Diarrhoeal diseases Lave a strong influence on inftintile mortality. The lowest rate is in Riverina, where it is 49-9 deaths from all causes per 1,000 births. On the North Coast it is 51-G. Those two districts show the lowest death rates from premature birth and other preventive diseases with one or two exceptions. Rainfall tends to keep down diarrhoeal diseases. 4072. Chairman.1 The important points are that the Sydney infantile death rate is 68'5, North Coast 51'6, and Riverina 499^the last two being the lowest for the State. Broken Hill shows 97'2. It is a district with a very small rainfall, and it shows an abnormal death rate from diarrhoea, enteritis, and premature births. But Broken Hill is not a rural district. For our purpose can we associate it with the city population ? Yes, Central Tableland comes next with 69"9, from all causes. Litbgow and Portland are in the Central Tableland area, and their influence increases the rate for the whole division. That is largely owing to the nature of the settlement in two industrial and mining centres. 4073. Included in the Central Tableland division are Lithgow and Portland, which are large industrial centres, and they influence the figures for the whole division 1 Yes. 4074. If those figures teach us anything at all, they teach us that urban settlement is associated with a higher infantile mortality 1 Yes. 4075. The rate for Newcastle is high 1 Yes, just a trifle under that for Sydney. But Newcastle is a large city. It comes next to Sydney in the State. 4076. Y'our infantile mortality statistics include Newcastle, Broken Hill, and other towns, but if they were eliminated the rate for the whole State would be reduced ? Yes. 4077. Chairman.] The average for the whole State is 649 ? Yes. 4078. The excess rate for Goulburn is almost entirely contributed by the death rate from congenital debility and premature birth "i Yes, but you will see that the rate for Goulburn district from epidemic diseases is' only exceeded by that for Broken Hill. Epidemic diseases are beyond anyone's control, within limits. 4079. Goulburn is a.n instance where one has to search about for an explanation ? Yes. One would not expect Goulburn to be so high. The South Coast would be afi'ected by Wollongong. 4080. The South Coast district includes a considerable industrial population 1 Yes. 4081. Your figures generally support the view that rural conditions are associated with a lower mortality in children? Yes. They support the medical opinion, which I have obtained, that infantile mortality is less in the rural districts, such as the North Coast and Riverma, and especially if there are no industrial or mining centres in them. That is Dr. Armstrong's opinion. 4082 The Committee lias had evidence from the Principal Medical Officer of the Public Instruction Department dealing with thehealth of children of school age, but your figures relate to children under 1 year of age. There is a distinction to be drawn between the evidence you have given and the evidence he has given'! Yes. , ,■,.!■, i • n ^ ,, 4083 Your statistics show that childi-en are healthier in the country districts, making no allowance for the fact that medical and nursing aid are more difficult to procure in the country 1 Yes. 4084. If country folk had the same medical and nursing aid as city folk one would expect the mortality to be reduced, otherwise doctors and nurses are of no value ? Yes. .,.,.,■,..,., 4085 In the country, milk on which young children are fed reaches them quicker than it does in the city, and because of the open spaces of the country there is not so much risk of sxck children infecting^ mie another 1 Yes. 4086. 222 Wiine$se»-~^- A. Smith, A. A. Watson, and H. M. Somer, 9 December, 1920. 4086. Your statistics show that notwithstanding the absence of medical and nursing aid in the country there is less mortality in the country ? Yes. I have been in touch with Dr. Earle Paige, who considers that the North Coast and Riverina districts are healthy because of their open spaces. They have a good milk supply which is made quickly available. Dr. Earle Paige and Dr. Armstrong emphasise the effect of industrial conditions upon the infantile mortality rate. Women are more likely to abort in industrial centres than in rural districts. 4087. The highest infantile mortality in the State is at Broken Hill, which is a densely-populated city. The next highest rate is in the Central Tablelands district, which includes Portland and Lithgow ; then comes the Metropolitan area and Newcastle, all urban centres, with a comparatively crowded population. The rural districts are, on your statistics, by far the healthiest for children under 1 year of age, Riverina being the healthiest district of all, the rate being just under 50 per 1,000. Notwithstanding there is less medical and nursing aid in the country districts, the health of the children there is better ? Thfit is so. 4087a. Chairman.^ You were also to prepare statistics in regard to householders who own their own houses? Yes. I have had prepared the following statement, which was compiled from the records of the last census, taken on the 2nd April, 1911. It shows the method of occupancy of private dwellings in this State, distinguishing between the Metropolitan area and the remainder of the State. New South Wales.— Private Dwellings as at Census, 2nd April, 1911. Method of Occupancy. Number of Dwellings. In Metropolis. In remainder of State. In whole State. Proportion per cent. , ,. 4 ,.„ In remainder In whole In Metropolis. of State. Stnte. By Owners ,, Rent purchasers , ,, Tenaiits „ Other and unspecified methods of occupancy 31,211 5,663 78,492 .3,061 Total Dwellings., 118,427 98,212 5,659 81,822 15,646 201,339 129,423 11,, 322 160,314 18,707 319,766 26-3 4-8 66-3 26 100 48-8 2-8 4D-6 7-8 100 40-5 3-5 SO-1 5-9 100 The table shows that in the Metropolitan area 26 per cent, of the private dwellings were owned by the occupier, and 66 per cent, were rented. In the country districts, 49 per cent, were owned by the occupier, and 41 per cent, were rented. Albert Alexander Watson, Acting Director, Returned Soldiers' Settlement Branch, Department of Lands, re-called, and further examined : — 4088. Chairman.] You have some additional evidence to give the ©ommittee i certain information which the Committee asked for. You wanted to know : Yes. I have prepared The area of l^nd offered for settlement hy owners and others ? The answer is ; 2,100,000 acres. The other question was : How much land, was rejected as unsuitable ? The answer is : 1,667,.304 acres. That includes.offers wbioli were witlidrawn. We have only taken into account formal offers— that is tfi say, offers made on the prescribed form. We had hundreds of letters offering land, but it woulcl (i^-ke a considerable time to work out particulars of them all. 4089. Were there as many informal offers as formal offers ? There were more. 4090. A considerably larger number of holders offered their properties informally, but, as regards the are», no figures have been prepared, and you have no estimate to submit ? No, it vs'ould take a, long time to pi'epare an estimate. 4091 . You cannot say whether the land would have been rejected if the offers had not bepp withdrawn ? If p. 4092. Neither C9,n you say that the offers were withdrawn in consequence of the owners kno\ving they would be rejected ? No, there were far more informal offers of land than is included in the 2,100,000 apres. Henry Montague Somer, Secretary, Royal Agricultural Society of New South Wales, sworn and examined : — ■ 4093. Chairman.'] You have been a farmer ! Yes. 4094. You have also been a3.sociated with journalism ? Yes. 4095. How many years wpuld that experience t^ke you over? Practically all iny life— since I wii,s 23 years of age. The settlers of New South Wales have suffered from two very serious disahililics— one has been lack of reliable markets for the produce of mixed farming, and the other is inadequate transport. Ihe position was that when the farmers had the advantage of a good season they were unable to sell their produce. Surplus produce was so large in those days that they could not sell it when they had a good year. That has been corrected to some extent by export trade but- farmers still suffer from lack of adequate transport facilities. They have difficulty in getting their produce to market quickly. That applies not only to agricultural produce, but to live stock. Frequently a farmer who has fattened his lambs is unable to get them to market before they are poor again 4096. Where there is no export a sea.son of abundance means a glut? Ye.s ; that is the experience of every farmer in Australia. Where there is no export trade there will be a glut. ' 4097. Sufficient provision is not made for turning the glut product into something that will keep ? I think improvement has been made in that respect, Thfre are more facilities now for canning fruit but there is still a great deal of waste. ' 4098. A glut season causes a great deal of waste ? Yes. 4099. That can be overcome, but it will take some time? Yes, if you are referring to fruit 4100. Potatoes can be made into some other product? Yes. The fruit industry requires better or"aiii- sation, and much depends upon the systeui of marketing. The grower now forces his fruit into" the market because he is bound to do so. There is no regard to quality. 4101 22^ Witness— K. M. Somer, 9 December, IfeO. They rIsh7ruL'lnfcn'lf?^''*rf^''l! '^^'''^ '' ""''y '>*"« ^^g^^d to quality on the part of most growers. ent%pri e There sJi?,!^!.- " T'^' ^ ^lut. I think that\ould be regulated by co-opferative lU would be in the'intresfs of trprodJcers" "' "''" ' ''"'^'" ^™''' *° ^^ ^^^ °" ''' '"^^'^'■ l«iulturet n°,^.fnrb'f'"'^*^'°" '^TJ'^*; *° *^° marketing bureau of the American Department of MetS^ T Hn i V ' '""TT^ *n' department took in hand the organising or advising in regard to tWolhfJninH Tl "°''7.^'*';''''?°^'^™ '^O'lld well carry out such a scheme on IbUJ fbrt U If T- I ^^T'' '' ^^P"'^'^' ™°*''' °" organising the individual growers, and making them see that it is to their advantage to co-opetate. » & b > b 41 03. The systeiii produces good results in America ? Yes. My belief, as an old producer, is that you can only teach people how to grow and how to market by showing them what is unprofitable, and convincing them that it does not pay to grow what is unprofitable. r . » 4104. You have hot studied the American marketing bureau system? No. 4105. Mr. Black] By marketing, you mean largely distribution ? Preparation for the market, arranging transport, and regulating supplies to the market. With a proper system of organisation the growers would not have half the trouble they have now. 4106. Chairman.] Supposing we had an organisation for the fruit-growing industry similar to that which we have for a dairying industry ? Yes. But as regards the dairying industry, the regulation governing secondary production provides for a certain standard of quality. In most of the States a man must have his cream graded. 4107. What we want is better organisation and co-operation amongst the farmers ? Yes. ii08. Mr. Innes-Noad] And better packing and grading ? Yes. 4109. There is room for great improvement there 1 Yes. When the fruit-grower sends his fruit in ungraded he delivers himself into the hands of the forestaller. They buy up ungraded fruit and take advantage of the carelessness of the producer. 4110. Ohuirman.] The farmer does his work fairly welH I was speaking-more of the inland farmer — the wheat and sheep farmer in the wheat belt. In that part of the State the farmer depends largely upon wheat, which is often his only crop. That class are good tryers and their system is fairly simple. Thisj? are subjected to various climatic conditions, and inland you find most of them are newly settled. A great number of people have gone on the land with insufficient resources. No matter how earnest and desirous they may be of adopting good methods they are forced to adopt hasty methods in order to get some revenue 6S ihb land. Somfe men survive, some go to the wall. Those who survive become very good filrinefa. . When they get a good footing on their land they commence to adopt improved methods. There are bad farmers everywhere. 1 recently spent ten days in the western part of the ' wheat belt. We' travelled throughout that country for 1,000 miles, and saw pretty well the whole of it. We started at Parkes, and went to Trundle, Peak Hill, Narromine, and Gilgandra. Farming out there is much newer than it is in the Riverina, and there are not so many good.farm.s there as there are in the Riverina. We called at about forty places, and, as we were judging for a wheat competition, perhaps we called on the best fariuers, but we found them all anxious to talk about better methods of cultivation. A great number of them are suffering from lack of means. They have very little capital, and if they get a bad season they are thrown back. But they are always anxious to get on, and they are a plucky lot. They do nbt require a great deal of scientific instruction, but they welcome the best and latest ideas in cultivation, and they are anxious to learn of the best varieties of crops suitable to their district. We found at least twenty farmers trying out different things, such as rotation of crops. We found twenty farms on which Sudan grass was grown- Sudan grass was only introduced here about four years ago, and we saw as much as 200 acres of it on some places. The farmers require better facilities for transport, as their difficulties in getting their produce to market are very serious. 4111. Have you found that farmers in this State cultivate a largo percentage of their land, or that they have more land than they can cultiva,te 1 There has been a strofig tendency to gamble in those districts. They have been discouraged over the troubles of the wheat pool, and they have had two years of drought. They have made an effort this year to save themselves. They put in a considerable amount of wheat before the rain came. When it came, they simply rushed in everything. Their object was to recover what they had lost. But in a good season a farmer can get just as good a crop with very little preparation of his land, which is one of the things that rather encourages bad farming. Many farmers have done that. 4112. Mr. Home.] It was good policy on their part this year? Yes; they were going for a recovery. But the "ood farmer who keeps his place reasonably clean, and who fallows the land year after year is still on top. Mr. Bragg, of Narromine, who has been farming for thirty-three years, has 2,400 acres under crop this year. Only 1,000 acres of it is fit for clean seed. He has very little black oats. He has crops that will go 25 bushels to the acre this year. He has the best crop for the size of the holding tliat we saw anywhere. Sound methods of cultivation will always win, but in a good year like the present many eood crops will be grown with poor cultivation. A man should have sufficient land to enable him to spell at least half of his area which he devotes to cultivation. One thing that is going to cause a lot of touble in trying to settle men on small areas for wheat and sheep-farming. If a man is limited to 400 acres he has a poor chance of doing any good farming, because he has to sow nearly 400 acres every year to keep his family and himself going. If he crops all his area his land will get dirty, and he has no chance of running any sheep on it. That is one of the things in the wheat districts which is going to cause a lot of trouble. A farmer should have at least 800 acres in any wheat district m New South Wales Many people hold a view that if a man has a small area he can cultivate it better. Probably he can, but in the wheat districts he should have at least twice the area that he desires to 41 iPue should have sufficient land for sheep as well as wheat ? Yes. He may make a fair sum out of wheat every five years, but he must have sheep as well. Black oats is a great problem in the wheat country The better the rainfall, and the deeper the soil, the more trouble you will have with black oats. 224 ._.„., Witnes»—U. M. Somer, 9 December, 1920. A farmer has no chance if he has to cultivate the same land over and over again. Some most experienced farmers do not plough wild oats, but put it out to pasture, tackle the surface with a cultivator or spring- tooth, and keep it down with sheep. By turning it down you bury the wild oats, and the seed may germinate seven ye irs after you bury it. 411 1-. Chairman.) Tb shods its sged while other crops are ripening 1 Yes. One way of dealing with it is to grow a very hea y crop of ordinary oats, and cut it very early. But even then you do not get all of it. The best way is to throw the paddock out, keep the surface moved, and keep sheep on it. 4115. Mr. Home ] You believe that the farmer should have sufficient land to fallow 1 Yes. A farmer requires to do mo:e than make a living. He wants sufficient land to sow 400 acres of wheat, and fresh land sown every year will produce a ligger crop in a normal season. He has only to let his land go for three years and it will be full of wild oats, and the soil is not then in a fit condition to bear a good crop of wheat. 4116. Chairman.] Muoh of that land is suitable for lucerne 1 Yes. All that land will carry lucerne, but not heavily. As a grazing proposition it will carry lucerne. I;uoerne will accommodate itself to the productiveness of the soil. Mr. Mack, of Narromine, first began wheat-growing in order to break up his paddocks and put them down in lucerne. His idea was that if you sow lucerne heavily you will get more plants. He showed me where he had put in 20 lb. of seed to the acre and where he had put in 10 lb. to the acre. The paddock sowed with 10 lbs. of seed showed the same number of plants after a few years as the other paddocks sown with 20 lb. of seed. The reason was that the soil could not carry any more. On the Hunter River flats wiih 5 lbs. of seed you could get as much lucerna as you liked. A great deal more lucerne should be grown on farms. 4117. Mr. R.J. Biack.] In the Cowra districts many farmers are growing lucerne on the hills. You cmnot grow it there as you can on the river flats ; but they get useful crops 1 Yes ; it is very usefiil. 4118. Chairman.] "We find that on the flats in Monaro it does not grow up close ; the plants are distributed , but on the hillside it grows like scrub, and as long as you have depth of soil it will grow well on the hiil-side 1 Yes. You require to have very Sne tilth for good germination. Years ago, when I was at home on country similar to the Riverina country, every farmer grew some lucerne, and we had no irrigation. It is a good standby, and it is a fine corrective for stock. 4119. I have found that I could get a good crop of lucerne with 6 lb. and 4 lb. of seed in a clean field, but in a field with a lot of grass I had to sow heavily 1 Yos. 4120- On the South Coast you have to sow up to 15 lb. and 20 lb. of seed to choke other grasses? Yes, to ensure germination. 4121." In a summary of your evidence sent in by you some time ago, you state : — " Generally speaking the inland settler has been induced to take up land, and once he has been planted on his block he has found that the power which should supply him with a railway, a decent road, some means of obtaining water and other things necessary to the permanent occupation of his land, has simply forgotten him. In the main the farmers of New South|Wale3 haVe suffered more from lack of recognition of their requirements by_Governments than from any other cause, not even excluding droughts." What you mean is that in addition to putting people on the land there ought to be a policy to assist them to market their produce 1 Yes. It should exist before they go on the land. The inland districts sufier severely from want of such facilities. Many sources of water supply could be developed. Production from the soil in this country could be enormously increased if the farmers had better facilities. Water supply is most important to people settled in a new part of the State. Proper use has not been made of the natural water supplies of this country. A great deal more in that respect could be done. Sheep will die much quicker without water than without grass. The question of a living area is of almost vital importance. A farmer is granted a- living area for himself and his family. He may have three sons. All the time his family is growing up he has improved the place, and they have got a knowledge of the farm and its conditions. When those boys have reached the age of 20 or 23 they naturally want to strike out for themselves, but the family is still living on the same living area. The farmer has to keep these boys on and endeavour to pay them wages, or he has to hand them over the farm, which he cannot do because he has still his wife and younger members of the family to maintain. The boys have not means of getting new land in another district, and land is difficult to get in New South Wales in small holdings. The father cannot afibrd to pay them wages. As a rule he does not attempt to. They say, " If we are going to work for wages, we might as well work in the city, where things are more comfortable." The incentive to become a producer in the boy is immediately destroyed. That is the cause of much of the want of balance between a rural population and the population of the city. 4122. Mr. Home.] You do not suggest that a man should have eight or nine living areas because he has eight or nine children ? By the time bis children have grown up the land has become more valuable. I would give a man a suflicient area to help him to settle his boys. Why should they not be settled on that land as well as anybody else ? You do, sometimes, strike a place in the country where there is a large family living in the same locality, but in that case the farmer has a large holding. He decides to settle one son on 500 acres, and another on 500 acres, as they are going to be married. They become producers, and what is more they are experienced producers. 4123. What use would the farmer make of that additional land while the children were growin" up ? He could work it fairly well because he has his sons' assistance. I presume you mean that the farmer would not put the land to its best use while his sons wore growing up. I concede that. 4124. Chairman.] The Committee recently examined thirty-two farmers at Maitland, the average area held by them being 70 acres, and every member of the Committee was wonder-struck at the prosperity of those farmers. They all dealt with the question of their children, and most pointed out that the reason children left the farms on which they lived was because the father would not pay them a good wa^e or give them a share in the profits. In other cases where the boys remained on the farm they said they had no difficulty ■with them because they gave them a share in the profits and paid them good wages ? Yes, that is pro- vided the place is big enough. 4125. When I was Minister for Lands Junee was on conditional purchase and conditional lease to the HeflTernan family. A living area was 8,560 acres. On 100 acres of it now there is a large population. If you amplify your living area to-day you are perhaps going to rob in twenty years lOo'young men of their opportunity to get a bit of land ? Yes. But there is generally a counteracting influence, because as the Witnesr,-E. M. Somer, 9 December, 1920. thecountry increases in value per acre jou find that it does not pay 'to keep thea/ going. The district Of Camperdown Weste.rn Victoria, was a big station for thirty year., and now it comprises a number of farms. It was found that it paid better to cut it into smaller blocks and sell it. 4126. In America theie are 30,000,000 farmers, and the area you can take up is limited to IGO acres with 160 acres as^Nwl-land. That system is open to the argument that it is not a living area, but it has resulted in 30,000,000 farmers being settled on the land ? Yes, but they have their markets handy, ihc diffaculty hece is lack of facilities for marketing produce. My father who had been a squatter was hit heavily by the drought. It settled him. My mother was loft with a family of nine children and we eventually settled in the north of Victoria, where we had a big struggle. When I was 23 years of ag j we were pretty right there. We had 1,.')00 acres of land and rented 1,600 acres of good farm land. I had four brothers grown up who worked on the property. Then we began to feel that it was time we started for ourselves. I said I would be the one to go out. I left, as hundreds of boys have left, for the reason that I could not get land near our own land. That is one of the reasons why so many young fellows come to the city. 4127. Take a man with a wife and five boys in the wheat country. You contend that he should have not less than 400 acres of cropping land and an additional 400 acres 1 Yes. 4128. That, in your opinion, should be the minimum area ? Yes. 4129. If he had four boys growing up, and he wished to provide for them, what area would you give him? On 400 acres of cropping land and 400 acres of additional land he would have a chance to do something for them. 4130. Would he give them 200 acres each ? I referred to a living area. 4131. You have stated that there is a tendency for boys to leave the land because they cannot get land near where they have been brought up. You believe that if they could get such land they would stay where they are ? Yes. 4132. If a farmer were given 2,400 acres he would be unable to handle it ? Yes, in the beginning. 4133. That would be a loss to the community ? Yes, but it would not be as big a loss as it would be to to the community generally, Mr. Simmond, of near Trundle, who has 2,000 acres of land, 800 of which are under wheat, has also three able-bodied sons to carry it on. They carry a lot of sheep. He told me that he intends to cut the place up soon and give the boys a start. He is going to cut the place into three. ' Mr, Bragg, of Narromine, who has about 15,000 acres, has also said that it is his intention to give it to the boys. If you go through any of those districts you will find that it is difficult to buy a decent block of land, 4134. How long have you been secretary of the Royal Agricultural Society ? Fourteen years, 4135. The Society has existed over fifty years? Yes. 4136. It holds a very fine annual show ? Yes. 4137. When the annual show is over do you encourage agriculture ? We have wheat competitions. 4138. You always have in mind the encouragement of agriculture? Yes, we are always trying to do something to further it. Our Agricultural Society is on a different footing from those in other countries. The greater part of our agricultural educational work is undertaken by the Government. If we endeavoured to establish laboratories and carry out experiments we should have to divert our resources to that side, and we should not have anything like the establishment that the Government has. Most of our work is done to encourage the producer to grow better produce by competitive means. That is about all that is left to us. The Royal Agricultural Society gives prizes to encourage students. During our recent journey through the wheat country we had with us a young agricultural expert -who has taken his degree in agriculture. He won the Farrer Memorial Scholarship, and is now a government inspector. He has a very good knowledge of practical agriculture and has a good style. He was a judge of the competition, and my Greatest difficulty was to get him away from the farmers. Everywhere he went he was welcomed by the most experienced farmers, who asked him questions about plant diseases and pests. Our inspectors are mostly of the same class, but there are not enough of them. They should be established in the various districts. They should live there. They should travel about, their district and instruct the farmers. That would do a lot of good. 4139. Do you give free admission to the annual show to boys at the Hurlstone Agricultural High School ? y§s • they apply every year, and we issue to them so many admission t'ckets. TUESDAY, 14 DECEMBER, 1920, IJaseut : Hon. Sib JOSEPH CARKUTHERS (in the Chaih). Hon, W, T. DICK, Hon. G. H. G. VARLEY, Hon. R. J. BLACK Hon. II. E. HORNE. Hon. S. R. INNES-NOAD, Max Henry M.R.C.V.S., B.V.Sc, Senior Government Veterinary Surgeon, Stock Branch, Department . . . . , ^^ Agriculture, sworn and examined :— 4140, Chadrma,.] You desire to give e°videnco on certain points in connection with this inquiry? Yes I wish toftive evidence on behalf of the Stock Brand, of the Department of A griculture-not personally. I desire; first of all, to tender certain evidence in connection with swine fever. 4141, Is that disease similar to swine cholera? Yes, hog cholera is the saine thing. The disease has been present in the State for some time. In 1918 a suggestion was made by Mr. Ray that he was able to protect pigs from swine fever by the use of a serum and vaccine, and the Department was approached m order to have an experiment carried out, That experiment was duly earned out, and the veterinary t 6325-2 F °^'''' 226 Tri«ne»«^M. flenry, M.E.C.V.S., B.V.Sc, 14 December, 192). officer who attended it reported that he did not regard ths teat as conclusive of the officacjr o his rnuTtaneous inoculation. The pigs which were inoculate 1 by Mr. Ray were post mortemed by Dr, Dodd, and his conclusions were : — PiiT No 1 This animal was affected with swine fever, but recovering. , , ., j i. i ii. i • Pi|No:2: It is quite possible this animal was slightly afifected wish swine fever, but it recovered, but the lesions wBre not definite enough to justify a positive conclusion. , , . ^ ■ * „„ were not aen ^ ^ S_^^^j J^^^^O^^^^t'^^^^^^ ^^ ^^ recovering from or just developing acute swine fever. Following this experiment, Mr. Ray was asked to reply to the following questions ; - 1 The actual details ofyour process and the results claimed by you analog therefrom. _ . , t ua 2. It a pSre culture of a micro-organism is used in the process, the name of such micro-organism to be furnished. 3. If a serum is used, from whence derived ? Mr. Ray's answers to these questions were : — , , • j, ,. j i- j • n. i. 1 The actual details of my process were in the first instance to obtain the blood and mfeoted portions from pigs that had died or wei" dying of swine fever and the segregation of the micro-organism and the cultivation of same This pure culture I then injected simultaneoasly with serum obtained from a pig that had recovered f™"? ^"''"'^ ^7^^. ^^ P.^^'™. **f* it has been possible for me by the above described simultaneous inoculation to give pigs immunity against swine fever ; and ^addition, I can, if necessary, by hyperimmunising pigs to secure a supply of ^e'^"'" *^*^ ".^^'^'^'''f . '^•|'^„^ "° *' ^" times be available, as of course having obtained my pure culture, I am if necessary able to retain sanae indeBnitely. times DC a ^^^ ^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ micro-organism known as the bacillus of pneumo-enteritis of the pig, and the name suggested for the same by the late Professor Metohinkoff was " coco-bacillus suinum. 3. The answer to this will be found in replv to question 1 . Apparently, at first Mr. Hay obtained his serum from rabbits. Obviously, from the results, the»e experiments could not be considered conclusive, and the fact that Mr. Ray was using an organism which about fifteen years ago was definitely shown not to be the cause of swine fever, but only a secondary invader, which was responsible for certain lesions commonly seen in swine fever, and also in other cases of disease, renders it evident that with a view to obtaining a protective vaccine for swine fever thesp experiments were useless. There is no evidence before us that Mr. Ray has altered his method in this connection. . , . i_ n.- i-> 4142. Whom do you mean by " us 1" The Department of Agriculture. The organism which Mr. Kay states he has been using, the bacillus of pneurao enteritis, or swine fever bacillus, was held until 1903 to be the cause of this disease, although bacteriologists even then were not quite confident on this point for various rea,sons, and the work of various investigators from 1903 to 1905 showed that the real causwl organism was a filterable virus— that 1=, so small as not to be visible under the highest powers of the microscope, and it was not retained by such filters as are generally used for filtering off organisms., We now know that the so-called bacilus of swine fever is really a secondary invader, attacking various parts of the animal, particularly the intestines, when the animal is already weakened by an attack of the true cause of swine fever, the invisible virus, and at the same time we know that many cases of disease in pigs occur which are due to this so-called swine fever bacillus, but which are not swine fever. Tn support of this statement, I quote Hutyra and Koves, as reported by the "Journal of Comparative Pathology and Therapeutics," June, 1917: — '^ Tlie authors state that experiments performed by them, with the object of identifying and cultivating the swine fever virus have hitherto given no tangible results," and " Proescher and Siel," Journal of the A.V.M.A., April 1917 : "The investigations of de Schweinitz and Dorset, 1903, and Dorset, Bolton, and McBride, 190.5, have shown that the caustive agent of hog cholera is a filterable virus. The finding.^ of these authors were corroborated by Poels in Holland, Ostertag and Stadie, Wasserman and Uhlenruth in Germany, the Board's laboiatory in England, Theiler in South Africa, and oihers. In spite of numerous painstaking investigations, the virus of hog cholera has neither been rendered micros'-;opically visible, nor has it been artificially cultivated." This can be supported by any number of additional quotations from authors of equal repute, if desired. The methods adopted heretofore to control swine fever in this State have been those of quarantdning infected areas, con- trolling movements of pigs within infected districts, slaughter of diseased and in-contact animals, and those are the methods which have been utilised in most countries where swine fever was not very prevalent nor widespread. The Department is continually on the watch for swine fever, and in the metropolitaai area one inspector is lo'd off for the sole duty of continuously inspecting pigs in that area, and reporting the occurrence of dis<, and it must be repeated at frequent intervals. This is fully recognised by the Board of Agriculture in England, and the Chief Veterinary Officer reported in 1916 as follows : — As the resistance bestowed by serum only lasts for about ten days, after which the pigs again become susceptible to swine fever in a fatal form, if direct contact with infection is not obtained, the only alternative to allowing the treated pigs to mix with the ailing is to give repeated doses of serum until all the ailing are dead or recovered, but that is not practicable in dealing with thousands of pigs all over the country, and the aim has been rather to get the greatest benefit practicable under the conditions which obtain in practice. When large numbers of healthy pigs are in contact, however, and it is impossible to bring about proper mixing, second, and even third, doses of serum are sometimes given. Serum treatment is preveiitive and not curative, and, therefore, successful results depend largely upon getting into touch with outbreaks before infejtion has spread to a considerable proportion of the pig^. Serum is practically valuless in dealing with pigs in the grip of infection before treatment. There is considerable delay in reporting sickness in swine suspected as swine fever. How much of thi.s delay is avoidable it is difficult to say, but it puts a serious handicap on the greater success of the application of serum treatment in practice. It may be pointed out that the handicap of having to repeat the doses is intensified in dealing with young pig.S and that in controlling swine fever by serum inoculation quarantine restrictions are always imposed. It is sometimes thought that the use of serum would completely do away with the loss suffered by pig-raiser.s under the stamping-out method, but though it minimises it, it does noteliminite it, as is evident when it is seen that in England luring the twelve months' review of the report for 1916 the following facts wore noted : — . Treatment was applied in 2,100 outbreaks, in which 77,000 pigs were involved. 4147. Chairman.] Wiiiit year is that? Tho report was published in England in 1916 for the previous twelve months. The death rate from swine fever amongst these was 346 per cent. ; 2.5-8 per cent, were .slaughtered for food, and 38-6 per cent, released. During the same period, 38,229 pigs were involved in outbreaks where serum treatment was not adopted. The death rate was 52 per°cent the number slaughtered for food, 332 per cent., and 148 per cent, free at the end of the outbreaks. The adoption of the serum prevention method would again involve the upkeep of laboratory and necessary staffs. At the same time, should events in future warrant it, a modified system of serum treatment could be adopted in affected districts in the State. One other point in connection with control should be mentioned that is the marked periodicity of the disease. In the United States of America there was a sharp rise'from 94 to 97, and in Great Brilain from 94 to 96, then a decline, with some fluctuations, unlil 1911 in the United States, and 1910 in Great Britain, th?n a further marked increase. The year 1914 phows the hic^hest point for each country, and then a rapid decline in both, although vaccination has been cai'ried out in the United States, and stamping-out in Great Britain. Similar fluctuations have occurred in Eno'land since. Ihat IS borne out by our own experience, since after the serious outbreaks in 1903 and 1904''there was' under the stamping-out method, a marked decUne to 1907, in which year there ^ere'onlv seven outbreaks, a rise to fifty-four outbreaks in 1908, then a rapid drop to one i^ 1910, and none in imn ^^^e'' ,^^'ich the disease was not reported until 1917. Outbreaks occurred up to thirty in 1919, and they have dropped to fourteen in 1920. It cannot be considered that swine fever is very common here at present, and it is certainly not correct to say that there are no control measures in operation, whilst the further statement that a number of returned soldiers have lost seriously is not borne out by the facts, as according to our records only four outbreaks occurred in the past two veark among.st the stock of returned soldiers. The method of prevention proposed by Mr Ray is not that earned out in America, since in America inoculations are made with virulent blood and serum from hyperimmunised pigs, and not by any organism which can be cultivated. 4148. As to the outbreaks in England — were the pigs vaccinated 1 No. 1^1 1« ^?'"" ^Sures for England are for the period when there was no vaccination 2 Yes 4150, When was swine fever first noticed here 1 In 1903. " ijgj 229 A^t^^ ■H-^,„ • "'»"'^"'"i ^''P^riments in that regard under the Chief Inspector of Stock. When swine fever was at its its worst l^^in T^nl 1 Q^i fl t°k' f^^^^' ^^^ proved that I can immanise pigs, and prevent tlie disease from breaking out. That was in June, 1918. I have here a letter which I received from the Chief Inspector of Stock. and he quotes the letter, which asked for the details of his process. That is a statement of fact. Is it not a fact that Mr. Ray conducted e-Kperimenta under the C.iief luspeatDr of Stock 1 Yes. 4164. Mr. Ray says : — When swine fever ^yas at it3 worst I conducted experiments at Bjtany. 1 He did, but they were not successful. 4165 He gives in his evidence a statement of what ocoarred. You say the experiineatj wore not succassful ? I do. 4166. I asked Mr. Ray: Were those experiments you Coaductad successful ? He replied : Yes, every one was successful. Thoy could not kill the pigs that I treated. Could they kill those pigs except by a knife ? I do not know. 4i67i_ You take it upon yourself to say that is not correct? We take upm oursslves to say that the experiments were not successful. 4168. Were you in the Department then? Yes. 4169. Were you the Chief Inspector of Stock then? No. 4170. In what way were Mr. Riy's e.xperimaats not successful? That is shDwn in the evidsnee. Dr. Dodd held a post-mortem examination of the pig at the University. 4171. Mr. Ray has stated in evidence : They were given infectious mittar fro."n the bowels of awino which liad died from fever which they devoareJ, and none died. Is that correct? T do not know. Those expsrimsnts were not the one? they did with us. 4172. Mr. Ray goes on to say : The intestines of an infected pig immediately on being slaughtered were fed to two pig3 which had been inoonlated, and it had. apparently no efifect upon them. ? I know nothing about thosa experiments because they are not the ones eonductad by u^. 4173. Are Mr. Ray's answei-s to Questions 2731 to 2733 correct? A great deal oE the evidence in answer to Question 2733 refers to a matter with which the Department had nothing to do. 4174. The experiments referred to in the answers to those threa questions you say ware not carried out by the Department? They were not. 4175. Mr. Ray say.^ they were — that they warj conducted under the Chief InspBotor of Stock. He refers to three pigs. He says that they Wore killed. He was asked by the Chief Inspector of Stock to supply : The actual details of your process and the result claimed by you arising therefrom ; if a pure culture of a micro- organism isused in the process, the name of such micro-organism to be furnished ; if a serum is used, from whence derived. In the letter asking for that information the Chief Inspector of Stock also wrote : Kindly note that the recent experiments were undertaken as a special concession, and were not governed by the terms of the license as issued to you on the 9th July, 1917, under section 8 of the Noxious Microbes Act, 1903 ; also, that no inoculations of pigs can be undertaken by you for the time being other than those whicli form the subject of the experiments before referred to. Then Mr. Ray states what he did. Is there anything in his replies to those questions which is not correct ? 4176. Mr. Innes-yoad.] Do you contend that the pigs which Dc. ipodd examined were different from the pigs to which Mr. Ray referred? I gather that the first part of his evidence does not refer to our pigs. He says : The Government was then approaohad regarding the carrying out of wider tests. 4177; Chairman.] Is there any correspondence to show that Mr. Ray's statement about the pigs on which he experimented is incorrect. The experiments were carried out under the observation of the Chief Inspector of Stock ? Yes, they were. 4178. Mr. Home.] But different conclusions may have been drawn? They were drawn. Mr. Ray'a evidence did appear to us to be a serious attack on the Department. 4179. Chairman.] It is a statement of fact. What year were the experiments carried out ? 1918. There is one definite statement in his evidence which shows why we bring the matter up. We are asked to sanction the carrying out of further experiments in connection with the protection of pigs against swine fever. When asked what his cufture was, Mr. Ray said : I use a pure culture of the micro-organism known as the Bacillus of Pneumo-Bnteritig of the pig, and the name Bnggested for the same by the late Professor Metchenikoff was " Coco-Bacillus sninum." We were asked to carry on further vaccination of pigs with that organism, 4180. 230 Witness— M. Henry, M.R.C.V.S., B.V.Sc, 14 December, 1920. 4180. By whom 1 By outside people. Wliat we desire to point out is that Mr. Ray's organism i« not the true cause of swine fever, and that it is no use us going on with that work. 4181. That is your contention? That is the accepted opinion of the scientific world. 4182. Mr. Ray has stated : It is not my intention to proceed any further in this matter. He did that the moment that the Department said that it would not let him go on. Has he proceeded any further 1 I do not know, „ ^ , > , , j 4183. Have yo«i any knowledge that he has proceeded any further ? I have no such knowledge. 4184. Mr. Eay says later on that he was appealed to on behalf of a number of returned soldiers who have suffered serious loss from swine fever by the Deputy-Comptroller of Repatriation, Colonel Farr. He made an offer to Colonel Farr, as follows : I said that if the Government would let me, I would go on to every returned soldier's pig farm aud treat their pigs free of charge with preventive mocalation. I asked liim : What is the present position in regard to pig cholera. Did the Department give you an opportunity to put your methods of combating it into practice ? H« replied : No, it stopped me. I then asked : Were you given any reason the answer, was — No, no reason. I never asked for any reason. He decided that he would not go on against the Department. That is the position as it appears to the Committee. That is Mr. Ray's sworn testimony, 4185. Mr. Innes-Noad.] You wish to put on record why the Department did not consent to further experiments 1 Yes. 4186. Chairman.] I have here a cutting from what I consider to be the leading farmer s paper of the world— The Country Gentleman, of the United States. It contains a short biography of Dr. John R. Mohler, Chief of the Bureau of Animal Industry in the United States Department of Agriculture. With respect to the members of the Bureau of Animal Industry, it says — Three of them discovered the hog cholera serum that has reduced losses from that disease enough to save the fanners of the United States about 40y000,000 dollars a year— a discovery by means of which any farmer can protect his hogs against cholera. ITiat statement occurs in the leading agricultural journal of the United States, dated 31st July, 1920. la that a correct statement ? It is probably correct. A serum has been discovered, and you can protect with it, hut you should take into consideration the different conditions existing in America and in New South Wales. 4187. I do think that the Department should give fair play to any man in this State to conduct experiments, if he is not a charlatan or an imposter. Mr. Ray has not shown himself in the least desirous of evading the obligations which a citizen owes to the Department. When you tell him he is not to do a thing, he stops. There is no doubt about that, 4188. Mr. Innes-Noad.] I take it that the Department wants to justify itself in the light of Mr. Ray's evidence 1 Yes, 4189. Chairman.] Why did not the Department give Mr. Ray the reason in June, 1918, why he was not to go on 1 I was not in control of the matter then. I do not know. 41fl0. Why has he been allowed to wait for two years without a reason. This country requires the benefit of all the scientific brains it can get. You have something to say about the eradication of the cattle tick ? Yes. The methods hitherto employed in the State for dealing with the cattle tick have aimed at preventing its spread by quarantine, control of movement, and dipping, exactly the methods which were at first put into force in America. The Department now proposes to take a further step, aiming at the eradication of the tick, also by quarantining, continuous dipping, and control of movement, but carried to a further extent than has previously been the case. These are exactly the methods which have been adopted in America with such success. The Americans have used no bacterial agency whatever. Up to the present the Department has held the tick in check on the Northern Rivers, and that in itseli has been a big opetation. The Department intends to push the matter further, and hopes, by having more continous and general dipping, greater control of stock, and more co-operation between the different departments, to eradicate the tick in that corner of the State. 4191, You say that the Americans have used no bacterial agency in the destruction of the tick. What suggested i/Oyou to make that statement] Mr. Ray's statement. I would refer you to Question 2753. The law prevents Mr. Ray from bringing ticks to Sydney, and he says : I cannot deal with ticks unless I have them under observation. Then he remarked : I do not complain of that ; I think it is right. He said himself that he might get no result, but he stated that he could not investigate the tick withou^t going to Queensland, and bringing ticks to his laboratory. He said he thought it was a good law that prevented him from bringing ticks to Sydney. 4192. Mr. Innes-Noad.] Is there anything wrong with the statement f No. My object was to emphasise the fact that the eradication of the tick is a question of dipping and control — that they are the only lines on which we can safely work to eradicate the pest. Reading Mr. Ray's evidence I gather the impression that other methods were thought to be suitable. 4193, I think you people in the Stock Branch are spoiling for a fight ? No, we do not want to fight. 4194. You have some information with regard to the control of pleuro-pneumonia 1 Yes. The control of pleuropneumonia is one of the duties devolving on the Stock Department. The District Inspectors are continually on the watch for it, and as soon as outbreaks are located the holding and stock are quarantined 231 Witnesses~t,i. Henry, M.I^.C.V.P., B.V.So., and A. H. Uther, 14 December, 1920 quarantined and all cattle are inoculated. The use of preventive inoculation is very wide in this State* and IS con-ifJerod very satisfactory. The principal method is that of using what is known as "natural ^"iT' .,.^°® Pj'°''"'^"'^'°" o*" the introduction of stock diseise from abroad is controlled by the Federal authorities under the Quarantine .\ct, wlio appoint the Chief Veterinary Othcer of each State as Chief Quarantine Officer for Animals. So long as the present Quarantine Regulations are kept in force, there is little chance of disease being introduced. 4195. What abouo black disease? Black disease is u vfi-y similar complaint to that known as braxy in Great Britain, and bradsot on the continent of Europ-. The Stock Department, through its Consulting Veterinary Pathologist, Dr. Dodd, has been at work on it for some years, ■end we have justifiable hopes of anticipating a satisfactory result Respecting organisation for the study of disease in stock, so far as the Government is concerned, the duty is carried out by the Chief Inspector of Stoek and Chief Veterinary Officer, and the staff of the Stock Branch, who have the assistance of Dr. Dodd as Consulting Veterinary Pathologist. Previous to the war, this organisation was being built up, but for the past six years, owing to the absence of nearly all of the veterinary officers on active service, the matter has been in abeyance. Now that the veterinary .-taff has returned, the work again is being prosecuted. It is capable of great expansion, with most beneficial results to the Sta'e, and with the facilities which will be provided at Glenfield Experiment Station, which is now in course of construction, the work should be carried on much more satisfactorily. The present organisation only requires enlarging and improving in detail to be capable of dealing with any question of investigation and control of stoek disease. "4196. Your Depirtment could do with a great deal more organisation? Yes. 4197. You want more officers and laboiatories? Yes. And we want the Glenfield laboratory finished as soon as possible. When completed it will be one of the finest in Australia. 4198. There is room for almost any quantity of work in the Stock Department? Yes, wc are only touching the fringe. 4199. Why does not the Department work in harmony with men like Mr. Ray, a representative of the Pasteur Institute. He is not an ignoramus. Do not you think it is wrong to telt him in June, 1918, that Tie may not go on with his work and give him no reasons until December, 1920. Do you think we are tackling stock diseases and pests as we ought to ? No. 4200. We have not a big enough scientific staflf ? We have not. 4201. These stock diseases, uiiless controlled, will cause great loss? They will. 4202. You have been hampered during the war. Many of your men were away ? Yes, practically all of them. 4203. You were away ! I was away five years. 4204. Had yon an opportunity abroad to study ? No, I was too busy. 4205. Some of your men had such an opportunity ? Yes ; after the war they took a course at the English colleges. T J- t 4206. Have you had a chat with them since? Yes • one young fellow has taken two additional diplomas since the war. . 4207. Do you find that they have learnt much by going away ? Yes ; it has increased their experience and they have come in touch with men working in other countries, but I think the basis of the teaching here is equal to that of the teaching in England. 4208. You have not enough men being taught? That is so. 4209. When they have been taught there are not enough positions open to them ? No, although we are doing what we can to remedy that. 4210. Your funds limit you ? Yes. .,•,..• t, j 4211. Mr. Black.] What are the symptoms of swine fever? General lU-health, including diarrhoea and emaciation. ' , , . ^ n t xi. • j. 4212. What proportion of pigs in New South Wales are affected by swine fever In the past year we have destroyed 400. and 299 were passed for food. No carcases are passed which are not fit for human consumption. . .oil • ■ n„ 4213 Mr InneB-Noad.\ You have remarked that no germ causing swine fever has been microscopically discovered ? It is invisible, and cannot be filtered out with the ordinary filters, but it is there. 4214. Does that affect the possibility of discovering an effective serum? No we have a serum, which has 4215^" Ik.%^o7recommeud the isolation or destruction of diseased animals ? Yes ; I do not lay down the policy of the Department, but it is to quarantine and kill off infected pigs. Allan Hammill Uther, Examiner of Titles, Registrar-General's Department, sworn and examined :- 4216 dhmrman.] You were good enough to intimate to me that you had considered the Committee's last report andtrt you had some suggestions to make ? Yes, in regard to a suggestion of issuing a certificate ■of tTte to selectors at the earliest period after the taking up of land. I happened to read portion o your speXin the House on the subject': I take the opportunity to call your attention to a recommendation of Mr Jus^ce Harvey in his report on the bill to simplify and improve the practice of conveyancing m 1918. Mr, Justice Harvey states : , . t „f fV,o rnnvfivnnpins law of the State made to me by several practitioners Another proposal for the ''"f ^l^^^^jf l\„/s ITtlho^^^^^^^ under the real property system ^t an earlier independently was that lands und.r the CrowhL^nds Act s^^^^ |^.^^^ ^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^.^^ ^^^^^ which Crown stage than they are at Pr«^«?*' t" ^ .1^1 Re«iXv ofdeed, up till the issae of the grant, and then are transferred to ths land dealings are registered in the General Registry otf^^^^^ .^ suggested that on the confirmation of an Real Property Act on the issne of the grant should be put an e ^^ ^^^ ,„Jftions attaching to the tenure should be application for the tenures under the Act a certihcateMm^^^^^ rarely has-and all dealings in accordance issued. The holder will then have a document of title ™ at p^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^y ^^^ ^^ ^^^^ .^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^ with the provisions, of the Crown Lands Act will "Yjf.^'^^^^^ igt^ation should take the place of the present registration position of homestead grants at the present time, j -Rpgiatrar-General's office. This would be an alteration of very fn the local La^ds Office, the Lands Department^ a^^^^^^ consideration, Jt WPBld, I believe, be a great considerable magnitude, but I think it is one deservra^ or vb y .; . booikk) the country landowner. 42 ] 7. 232 Witnesses — A. H. Uther, 14 December, and L. T. McGiiiness, 15 December, 1920, 4217. I did not know of that when the report v^as written. Homestead grants are issued 1 Yes, as soon a.s homestead selection conditions are fulfilled a grant i.s issued under the Real Property Act. 4218. Have you any difficulty in dealing with tliem 1 They are a little more trouble, I think they require to have a certificate of the fulfilment of the conditions. They have to produce (hat with the transfer. 4219. Mr. R J. Black J To ascertain a man's title you have to forage through many documents in the Lands Office 1 Yes. 4220. There is no reason why the document of title should not be issued immediately after confirmation? No. I am not an expert on the Ci'own Lands Act, but it might be done before the certificate was issued or at some later stage. If a person cannot transfer his land for some considerable time it is of no particular moment that the title should be issued. When we were taking station securities, one of us always used to make a search for bankrupts' signatures. Sometimes we would find quite a number of doubtful cases. It has all the evil of the old sytem title. 4221. And a lot more added 1 Yes. 4222. That would make it expensive conveyancing work ? You can charge no more for a difficult case than for an easy case. Probably nearly every firm in town has been caught with a bad title at some time or other. 4223. The value of your evidence is that you have been helping in the work of the Torrens' Act ? Yes, I have been there for about ten years. 4224. You see no great difficulty in carrying out tl)e Committee's suggestion, which is practically the same as Mr. Justice Harvey's? I do not say that there are no difficulties, but I think there would be no great difficulty. I would like to hear the opinion of the Lands Department before I would say that there would be no difficulty. It would be impracticable to carry out the suggestion at once. If it was said that everyone who had a conditional purchase was to get a Crown grant it could not be done. 4225. Mr. Horne.l Would it not be possible to issue some document, and after the various stages of the conditions had been fulfilled, to endorse it ? 1 do not think you could do it. Take our own office returns for last year — 4,667 grants were issued for the Crown Lands Office. In the sa,me year we registered 8,233 tr.n.nsfers of conditional purchase. If you throw too much work on to the machine it will not work. You will have to introduce it gradually. It all means work. 4226. In bulk it would be less ? It would be more work for the Department, and less for the public. 4227. Chairman.] It would diminish the work on the common law side ? It would to some extent. If you cut out the conditional purchase transfers altogether we should still have 20,000 registrations. 4228. Mr. Home.] Are you aware that it is the policy of the Lands Department to deliberately withhold the issue of title deeds of conditional purchases, when all conditions, including the payment of money, have been fulfilled? No, I am not aware of it. 4229. It was confessed to me that the Department does it so as to have a bigger hold on transfers and granting possession? Most people believe that when a conditional purchase is fully paid up the title deeds should automatically issue, but it is not so ? I do not know. 4230. Chairman.] Have you Studied what is done in America and Canada in regard to homestead "rants 1 I understand that in the United States the Real Property Act is not in favour, " 4231. It has been introduced in a number of States ? The title guarantee companies have had such a hold for so long. They have vested interests. You insure your title. You get a policy of insurance. You do not bother about your State insurance. In some of the States the Act was held to be unconstitutional. In Canada all the new Western States are under the Real Property Act. 4232. Is it apphed to land in transit from the Crown ? No, I do not think so. There is no reason why a settlement lease should not be issued and registered under the Real Property Act, but amending legislation would be required. ' 4 233. You consider that well worth the consideration of the authorities, and you see no insuperable difficulty ? Yes ; well worth consideration. The Lands Department may see difficulties that I do not sec. WEDNESDAY, 15 DECEMBER; 1920. J3rc3f nt : Hon. Sir JOSEPH CAURUTHERS (in the Chaik.) Hon. a. SINCLAIR, Hon. R. J. BLACK, Hon. H. E. HORNE, Hon. a. E. HUNT, Hon. S. R. INNES-NOAD, Hon. J. TRAVERS. Leonard Thomson Maclnnes, dairy expert, Department of xlgriculture, sworn and examined :— 4234. Chairman ] How long have you held your present position 1 Since August, 1917. Before that I was in the dfiiry branch of the Agricultural Department, as dairy instructor and inspector and field staff ofncer and grader of daiiy produce. 4235. Have you been long connec'cd with dairying? Since 1895. t^^.^- 3^*1^°". *'"' P''."''""' t™ni"g in dairying? No. I came straight from the Central Western district. Previous to joining the Government service I was connected with dairying as the manager of estates and dairy produce factories in New South Wales and the Argentine. ' 4237. 233 WitneM—h. T. Maclnnes, 15 December, 1920. Sin,f fn ^'"' "^ J^af ^e of New South Wales ? Yes, I was born in Sydney. Dairying occupies the third fCSjr.r^T i" x^ P^™*"^ iadustriea of the State. I have the following particulars relating to the dairying industry in New South Wales :— 6 f "« DAIRYING. Features or inn Indust&y. Tettil female dairy stock Number of dairy cows, exoludVng springing heifers-yea^ ! »• •• '■ >. .. „ ,, 1919 Decrease.. 970,448 770,420 718,508 51,912 Number of dairy cows, average 5 years, 1913-17 744 OTjs Decrease as at 30th June, 1919 25'750 l»tiipated vajue-of all dairy stock i;!!'.!!]!'.'.!'.'.!!!!:.;;;".!";'.".'.;!;.";;:;:;!;;!;""'.'.";" £i2,ooo!ooo Number of holdings used for dairying 14 944 Average e»Haing» per holding. (ifacluding pigs) .'. ....!...!!..".!!!"!.!"!!!!"."!". £570 Average number engaged working each holding ........'..!..!....!.....".!!.!!! 2-75 Average gross earnings of those working each holding, per individual ". . . . £207 Value of farm implemenis, f&otory plant, and premises £1 154 286 Number of persons engaged in dairying on farms and in factories ' 43J79 Vajue of prgduction, year 1918-19 , £8,552,000 ,» >> estimated for 1919-20 £12,000,000 ,i ,, per head of population for year 1918-19 £4 Bstiraated value of production per heiid of population for year 1919-20 £6 Decrease in number engaged in working dairy farms, 1909-19 1,561 Number tagaged on dairy farms— 5-year period averages, 1909-13 46,299 •> » „ „ „ „ ,, 1915-19 38,894 Decrease . 6,405 Average jtfoduetion of butter, 1909t-13 (5 years) 75,417,0001b. >• -,, „ 1915-ia „ „ • '73,921,000 „ Dfecrease . 1,496,000 lb. Average yield of butter per cow, 116 to 122 lb. 4238. You sta^e that tiie average yield of butter per cow is from 116 lb. to 122 lb. I would like you to explain those figures? The 116-lb. figure is reckoning 290 gallons of milk per cow per annum on a S-4 test of buttec-fat. On a 3'6 test it would be 122 lb. Assuming all cows showed a standard of 3'4, the yield would be 116 lb, of butter ppr cow, but if the standard were 3-6 the yield would be 122 lb. The inmrage yield, computed from the Statistician's figures is 290 gallons of milk per cow, and, taking butter- |»t teats: of 3-4: and S'G, the yield woi-ks out at 1 16 lb. and 122 lb. 4S39. ifr» Hunt.] WouM that be the maximum yield ? No, that is the average for the whole State. The avera^ fbr the far North Coast i& about 160. I have prepared a report on the dairying industry of thb S:tate^ atnjdifif'iBg the figures which I have already submitted, as follows : — THE DAIRYING INDUSTRY, NEW SOUTH WALES. Present Conditions, Prospects, and How it mat be Improved. Present Conditions. A glance through the Statistical Register will show that with the dairying industry all is not well — there is a lack of advancement during th? last decade that causes those who think to pause and consider the reason and how it may be remedied. Take the number of holdings on which dairying is carried out either as a special industry or as an important part of mixed farming, dairying, agriculture, and grazing^ In the year 1914-15, there were 3,801 koldinga used solely for dairying, and 13,518 on which it was carried on in conjunction with other a^RCttltteral and pftatoral pursuits, ijaabing a total of 16,319 on which dairying was carried on. Fowr year later, 1918-19, the figures gi-ven by the State SUtistician are : — Specialised dairying ... ... ... ... ... ..■ ••. 6,482 Mixed dairying, agriculture, and grazing 8,512 Total 14,994 Admitting that the classification might have been modified in the interval by including as mixed farming certain places which formerly were classified as specialised dairies, there is still evident a decline of 1,325 in the total holdings in 1919— a big falling off in four years, which cannot altogether be accoanted for by the war and the drought. Again, the story of stagnation and decline is repeated in the figures given by the same statistical authority for our dairy stock. In 1914 the closing month for computation was changed from 31sfc December to 30th June ; this made a big difference in tabulating dairy stock, which are classified as "milkers" and "dry," because during the winter there is a greater proportion not milking — the figures are for the years 1909, 1916, 1919. Year. 31 December, 1909 30 Juee, 1915 30 Jiine, 1919 Milkers. Dry. Total. 566,378 426,173 445,354 189,507 344,247 273,154 755,965 770,410 718,508 Springing Haifera^ 38,664 80,637 78,839 This shows a decline of 37,477 in the total number of cows, although it is counterbalanced by the . ncreased number of springing heifers between the years 1909 and 1919, ; t 6325-2 G Turmng 234 Witness — L. T. Maclnnes, 15 December, 1920. Turning now to production quantities (values cannot be compared for this purpose on account of the increase in prices). For the years 1909 and 1919, the comparison is as follows :— Year. Total milk produced. Portion ■'of same made into — Butter. Cheese. 1909 201,183,337 gallons 62,865,608 1b 4,775,268 lb. 5,982,120 „ 26 per cent. 1919 207,095,000 , 66,008,958 Making five years comparisons : — Year. Total milk. Portion of milk made into— Butter. Cheese, 1909-13 Average 226,284,590 gallons... 220,514,400 „ ... 75 417,000 lb 5,500,000 lb. 6,790,000,, 1915-19 73 921.000 Decrease Increase 33 per cent It is really only by taking an average of about five years that a fair estimate can be arrived at, on account of the variations in our seasons ; therefore, the latter figures are more reliable for guidance, and they show again the decline in dairying that is taking place. The increase in cheese relatively corresponds with the decline in butter, but milk production as a whole has declined 3 per cent. These facts must all have a bearing on the number of employees engaged in dairying, but before dealing -with that there is another factor that would influence it, viz., the greater use of machinery to do the work on a dairy farm and in the dairy produce factories. 1909— Plant and machinery in factories 3,909 h.p. 19i5— Do 4,348 h.p. ■ 1919— Do 5,347 h.p. 1916 — Plant and machinery on farms ... ... ... ... 2 514hp 1919- Do 2,962 b.p. The comparison is made in terms of horse-power in preference to value of machinery, because since the war the price of all machines has increased. The small increase in the number of horse-power units in use both in factory and on farm— while at the same time the total quantity of milk produced and treated has not increased —would indicate that machinery to that extent has taken the place of human labour. The total number of persons, male and female, engaged in dairying on farms and in factories, excluding those engaged in the distriljution of dairy products in towns and cities, is : — 1909. 1919. Increase. Decrease. In factories 1,423 43,317 1,458 41,721 35 On farms "i',596 Total 44,740 43,179 Decrease— 1, 56J,or3J%. Perhaps, although the number of cows has decreased, it might be thought that this would be balanced by better feedmg of the smaller number. The figures regarding conservation of such a fodder as ensilage, although likely to mislead if taken on face value, through 1919 being the mid-period of a most disastrous drought, yet show a difference so arresting that they should be noted. In the year 1910, 364 farms made 34,847 tons of ensilage. In the year 1919, 60 farms made 6,292 tons of ensilage. Take the coastal area, which is almost all devoted to specialised dairying :— ]l]t'']n 5S farms 8,333 tons of ensilage. 1918-19 38 3,580 „ ^ In both these years the south coast below Nowra is credited with conserving the major portion (torty-sevon and twenty-eight farms respectively). ^ Look up the facts about growing fodder crops to hand-feed the stock, and the same story is found — a lack of provision agamst times of scarcity. ^ Value and Importance of the Industry. The dairying indu,stry is so valuable as a national asset that strong efforts should be made to retrieve the posi .on-instead of stagnation or decline there should be a rapid^nd great expansL" TWs industry stands for closer set lement. In the best districts there is a family (and I large oTTthat) to every 100 acres, over the State the average would be about 250 acres per dairy farm, or say one person to every 50 acres, ^y better dairying and good values for products there hould \e sudi an improvement brought about that the dairying districts would carry one white person to every 10 acres. Average Yieid of New South Wales Dairy Cows. -fiq nnV'^l^^ft f '^"f °i^^" -^^f 't', *^^ *^^ ''^^'■''Se number of cows between 1915 and 1919 was about <63 003 the tot.l laoduetion of milk averaged for the .same years was 220,514,400 gallons oraDwoxi matoly 290 gallons per cow. Presuming that it takes 25 lb. (3-4 per cent, test) niS to make 1 lb butte • the average yield per cow kept would be 116 lb. butter per annum, or, on a 3-6 ^r cent test aPDrox- ipately 12. }b. It may be arguec| that the whole of ^lefe cows ara' not milked Cnstkeyekr^^^^^^ time Missing Page 236 Witness -L. T. Maclnnes, 15 December, 1920. The Position of Cheese. This is to-day in a similar position to what the butter section was in 1915— the quality put on ihe market is, generally speaking, most inferior. The reason is that there is no legislative power to oontrol «ts manufacture, as in the case of butter. During the last two years the Department has spared no ^ort to educate manufacturers, but with no tangible result. No improvement will take place until it ia made compulsory to grade milk as is now done with cream— control the graders and compel manufacturers to put a brand on each cheese made, describing the quality of same, as is done with butter, and providJHg penalties for false description, also making pasteurisation of milk compulsory. The butter from this §tate now stands pre-eminent in Australia for quality, and holds its own with all other countries— in fact, in competition with all the Imperial Dominions for the last two years New South Wales butter has taken all the prizes at the great English Show held at Islington. Given the opportunity, we should do the same for cheese. Continuous Dairying — Decline in Winter Production. Constant dripping will wear away stone — perhaps reiteration will make for improvement in winter dairying. I take the opportunity of pointing out the decline in winter production of mi%, and consequently of its products. The winter of 1917 saw it necessary, on account of the shortage, to provide a pool to supply local requirements. Previous to May, 1916, when the regulations of the Dairy Industry Act were enforced, there are no figures available, but there is reason to State that for the winter of 1916 the production was less than in 1914 (1915 cannot be taken, as it was the mid-period of a drought which commenced • February, 1915, and ended January, 1916). The months of greatest shortage are July, August, and September, and, in some years, June. Taking the figures for these months : — Wuiter, 1917. Winter, 1918. Winter, 1919. Winter, 1920. Production, 3 months— July, August, September lb. 11,541,000 lb. 8,457,000 lb. 10,796,000 lb. 9,884,000 Decrease as compared with 1917 26-7 per cent. 6-8 per cent. 14'3 per cent. Or taking the average of the last three winters, the production has been about 16 per cent, belqw that of the winter, 1917. The following table will show the proportion of summer to winter production, taking the four highest producing months, December to March, to represent the zenith of production, and June, July, August, and September, the lowest. The amounts to be read as thousands (000) left out : — 1916-17. Per cent. of total. 1917-18. Per cent. of total. 1918-19. Per cent. of total. 1919-20. Per. cent. of total. Averages. Winter lb. 14,'756 35,208 74,824 20 47 lb. 11,852 38,170 ^6,628 15 50 lb. 13,565 ^,493 61,655 22 38 lb. 13,133 27,609 60,000 22 49 lb. 13,326 31,398 68,i^7 feu cent. 194 46 Summer Year's total To give an idea of the extent of the shortage in butter each winter — the total average prodflcti** during the four winter months, June-September, each year is 13,836,000 lb. ; consumption over the sttflJe period of seventeen Weeks (based on Sussex-street estimate — 20,000 boxes a week — and Knibbs' estimate of 26J lb. per head of population, which should be about 2,250,000 by next winter) is estimated at 19,600,000 lb. (350,000 boxes), leaving a shortage of 6,274,000 lb. (112,000 boies). Allowing for a big reduction in consumption on account of the high price oif butter, it Would appear necesSafy to stoto6, commencing from January, 80,000 to 90,000 boxes to meet our normal trade reqiiirements. "Chis estimate may be modified if the autumn and winter are mild and pastures very good, on account of cows calving very late this spring (under good conditions), they should milk well right into the winter. Reasons for reduction of production during the winter are : — 1. The price-fixing system gives no guarantee to farmers as to what they will receive over summer parity in the future 'one, two, or three years ahead. 2. It costs 5d. per lb. more in added work, expense, inconvenience, and hardship to dairy In the winter, because of the necessity of sowing fodder crops, purchasing feed, hand-feediij^ Utoek, rigging cows, arising in the dark, cold winter mornings to milk, and working in the cold winter rains to hand-feed and manage Stock. 3. The farmer reasons that he obtains the best nett return by getting during the summer the tftaximum yields at the least expense and trouble. He does this by breeding his cows to calve about October — nor can he be blamed. These reasons are sound and practical, but their continued application means that in time winter dairying may cease, labour employed in producing and manufacturing (mostly skilled) will be diBlo(!p,ted and will turn to some other work wliere it will be continuously engaged throughout the jestt, and— last, but not least— it will be necessary to continue the practice of storing the summer surplus to tiroVidfe for winter requirements. Now the practice, in so far as butter is concerned, is alright iEor the consume^ bebaHse it costs only l|d. to 2d. to stflie butter from January to July, and the quality after six (6) months' stOMige has been proved to remain choicest or high first grade ; but this cannot be done in regard to milk, and this is where the continued restriction of winter dairying becomes a, menace to the city and to%n p«jpHl»tionS, It pnce-fiiing were to be removed, business methods would provide that dairy products would I'iae ^ iwxin «« the time came to hand-feed and dairy under winter conditions, say, '2d. per gallon for railk, or 5d. per !b. for butter. Failing this, if price-fixing is to continue, there should be some aimllar guarantee givea th*t, s»yi Missing Page 238 Whieaa—t. T. Maclanes, 15 December, 1920. limited, tho dairy farmer knows where the inspector is and can calculate to a nicety the time when his premises and herd will be inspected. The result is that just ahead of the Inspector the broom and white- wash brush are use J more or less vigorously — in many cases not to be touched until after a year or two another inspection is due. Undoubtedly the clean up, when it docs take place, does a certain amount of good, but can anyone say such a system U efficient. The Board of Health supervision will not increase the supply of cho ceit butter or chet^se on t'lc market. Prior to the enforcement of the Dairy Industry Act regulations by the dairy branch, the butter put on the market was of very poor quality, yet the Board of Health had control of the dairies then as no-.v, when 96 per cent, of the butter is of first grade, and the majority (86 per cent.) choicest grade. By having the control of the dairies uhder the same authority as the factories, I feel crtain that in a short time seond arades would be eliminated, and we would have well over 90 per cent, of choicest quality. Cheese manufacture is not controlled like that of Vjutter by the Department of Agriculture, but the dairies of suppliers to these factories are inspected by the Board of Health — what is the result ? It is dilKcult to find a good cheese on the market. The quality of that SDld during the last two years tp the Imperial Government has been so inferior that the reputation in England of New South Wales cheese is very bad. Undoubtedly, as nlrcady stated, if cheese manufacture was controlled as is butter-making, the quality of the output would improve beyond knowledge, but such power does not go far enough — we want to reach tlie base of the trouble — at the farm. Given full control of all dairies (apart from the herds) I feel confident the dairy branch can efl'ect (over and above what can be done by controlling manufacture and marketing) an immense improvement in the quality of milk and cream and the cheese and butter made from them. By all moans let the Board of Health control the distribution of milk in the towns and cities under the Pure Food Act, that is essentially the function of health depart- ments in all countrie.s, but tho supervision of dairies and herds is a matter for a department dealing with agricultural matters — in fact, as far as I know, in no other State or country, apart from New South Wales, has a Health Department such control, and the opinion is held that such a state of affairs would not exist here, only that when the "Dairies Supervision Act" became law, there was no separate depart- ment of agriculture in existence to take charge of it. The cultivation of wheat might as well be vested under the Board of Health because flour made from it comes under the provision of the " Pure Food Act," and so with fruit and vegetables. The orchards and wheat farms are dealt with by the Agricultural Department alone, and so should the dairy farms. The officers of the Dairy Branch are trained in the production and manufacture of daiiy produce — they know how to obtain clean, good milk, and how to care for it and tbe cream separated from it in order to get a choicest article ; they are trained graders of milk and cream. They are also able to give instruc- tions in breeding, feeding, testing, and cire of stock, growing fodder crops and other things concerning dairy farming. They are primarily instructor.?, and secondarily inspectois. The health officer is an ^ inspector-, and bis principle work is cxa'nining dairy stock — his training has limitations, for instance, he could not gra, 4tli ^ 3 ,, 57,3 Mostly heifers on first caH. 5th ,',' 3 „ 520 ,, ., 44 470 lb. of butter fat. It will be seen that the later generations are showing improvement on their forebears, while right tliroushout it is shown that high production qualities g,re being passed on from generation to generation. By mating a bull from such a strain with the average herd giving 116 lb. butter per year, it is evident that an enormous increase in the average yield coUld be expected to take place when the progency ot the union came to be milked. The Ordinary Milking Herds. According to figures previously given, these numbered 718,508 cows and 78,839 springing heifers last year, arid the average t^eld of those of an age to milk has been shown to be 116 lb. butter per year. Out'oftbc total number of cows there are at the present time about 9,000 being tested regularly > for production, and there is an immediate prospect of about 3,000 being added to them, making a,, total, say, of 12,000— in other words, 98-4 per cent, of the total cows in the Stated dairy herds are an unknown quantity as far as their production in milk and butter fat over the year is oonoewied. These herds should all be tested, and such work being the corollary of testing the pure-bred stock. Since 1913 there ha,ve been about 70,000 oews tested. It is now recognised by the leading dairymen of the world that in order to get a quick and certain increase in the herd yields, testing for production should go with good feeding. Without the latter is, provided for it is useless getting good stud stock or testing, as not even the best of eo-ws will milifc if harlf-fed or starved. What has been done where Testing is been carried out. Individual cases show that in six years the average yield has been doubled. _ To illustrate what it is possible' to do in a district, the figures of the Bangalow Testing Unit are interesting. Taking 2.50 lb, butter as a standard. In 1914 of all cows tested on the North Coast only 2 per cent, gave over 250 lb. butter in a year. Of cows tested in the Bangalow Unit. In 1915 there were 38 per cent, above the 250 mark. „ 1917 „ ,, 51 „ ,, » ,, 1918 ,, ,, 00 ,, ,, ,, ,, 1919 „ „ 56 ,, ,, ;, • > m • a district increase of about l( per cent, in five years on a fairly high average to start with. This could bo repeated elsevi^here, but as the yields now are so low over the State, the increase pei* cent would be ever so tfitioh gr'eater. A 25 lb. increase on 116 lb. equals about 21 per cent. „ 25 lb. „ „ 250 lb. „ only 10 Some means needs devising whereby the dairy herds should be card-indexed for production and to check the feed given them, and the use of inferior bulls should be stopped. At the present time the Department Subsidises testing associations at the rate of 10s. in the £ for the first year and £4:0 a year afterwatds, but even with this help the farmer complains of the expense, aiid wiietl it is considered tliat the average production is so low, it can be understood that maiiy dairy fermers, perhaps half of them, are getting such srnall returns even with the present high prices that an expenditure of £b to £10 a year on testing is out of the question. Instru<;tional and Scientific Training. In order to get a higher class of employee in dairy produce factories, it would be advisable to establish the system of apprenticeships, not only for boys who on leaving school have to earn their own living, but for the dairy diploma students of the Hawkesbury Agricultural College. It is a difficult task to get all chese placed in factories, and when they get positions, it takes too long before they work their way up to be,, say, head .butter-maker. ]? lie same occurs with the boy who goes straight from school to factory. It has been recommended that leading cheese and butter factories be selected and subsidised to give systematic training to apprentices under the supervision of the Dairy Branch and the manager. For the college boy such a course would be tli? closing period of his training ; but for the other boy, it would be the commencing, as facilities should be provided to enable him to pass on to the Hawkesbury Agricultural College, and there got further instruction in the class-room and laboratories. At present the dairy course ends with the College Dairy Diploma ; it might with great advantage be extended to the University, and a degree of dairy science (B.D.Sc.) in the Faculty of Agriculture. There are, I think, at present opportunities in the Education Department for boys to get bursaries to go to the Hawkesbury Agricultural College, and those who should enter afterwards as apprentices would receive award wages sufficient to supply all legitimate wants. The boy, however, who has by force jf circumstances to leave school early and earn money to help maintain the family, cannot afford to pay his way afterwards to the College. His wages are not high enough to give the opportunity of saving sumoieilt money. It would, therefore, be advisable that bursaries lie established for this purpose ; that is, after serving the apprenticeship period in the factories, and qualifying by examination in practical manufacture of the dairy produce he specialises in, he could go to the College on a bursary, and the system could also be extended for all who are eligible by training to include the University course. Such a system properly governed would mean an immense benefit to the industry, as time goes on science enters more and more into the production and manufacture of dairy produce, and this plan would enable our factories to be in a few years staffed with men trained both 243 Witness—!,. T. Maclunes, 15 December, 1920. both on the practical and scientific side. It would also permit of laboratories being established in all dairying centres for chemical and bacteriologi",al research work, and to deal with local problems on the spot, instead of now having all this work done in Sydney by the Department. Such laboratories to be worked in co-operation with the Department's scientists. Providing the finances necessary to carry out a}l the foregoing recommendations regarding increasing the production and improving the quality of dairy products. To carry out the proposals brought un(l(>r notice herein would require a much larger amount of money than is now placed on the estimates to ])rovide for the operations of the Dairy Branch, which cost some £12,000 a year. In view o? the fact that any increase in production and further uplifting in quality would be both a national benefit as well as conducing to the material welfare of both sections of the community— consumer and producer— it is proposed that in addition to the same or larger sum being voted on the estimates each year out of consolidated revenue for expenditure by the Department on the Dairy Branch, this amount be supplemented by a direct levy on the industry. The money so levied to be placed in a trust fund and expended for prescribed purposes, such as : — (ra) On scientific research and instruction (including bursaries). (6) In the promotion apd assistance of the herd-testing movement. In the expenditure ot this money and in the administration and furtherance of all official ^orts to advance the dairying industry, the assistance be obtained of representative dairymen and others who are actively interested in this section of the Department's work. Such representation to be a State Council of Advice working in conjunction with the dairy expert. In addition, there might be district councils or committees elected to co-operate with the Department's district officers. There is already a similarly constituted board in Victoria, and if the system was extended to all the dairying States, there might be created a Federal executive, recognisable by the Commonwealth Government, elected from the State Councils, which, in conjunction with the representatives of the various Governments, could deal authorativdy with matters of Federal concern, supervise the expenditure of any grants that might be made by the Commonwealth Government, and control such Federal operations as the examination and grading of dajry products for export under the Commerce Act. To give an idea of the amount of money tlvit could be raised and how small the individual contribution would be : — The quantity of milk produced in the State is set down as 207,095,000 gallons. A levy on this at the rate of — id. per 100 gallons would give £4,314 Id. „ „ £8,628 .2d. „ , £17,256 The value of 100 gallons of milk testing 3-6 per cent, butter fat calculated on the present value of commercial butter is about £5 5s., so that even at 2d. per 100 gallons, the rate would only come to 0-16 per cent, of the market value of milk on a commercial butter value basis. On the basis of whole milk used for consumption, it would be very much less. For such a small direct contribution the farmer would stand to gain an incalculable benefit, while the Department would gain the advice of a committee elected by the producers, and it is tliought that a more sympathetic co-ordination of effort would result .betwe^ the official and those engaged in the industry. I have tried to outline the conditions and possibilities of the dairying industry, but naturally, many thin-^s have not been touched up— the urgent need is above all to create a feeling of contentment in the inTmers ; unless this is done, all the measures advocated will be unavailing. The farming community requires'increasing and the present rate of decrease stopped, otherwise t^ere will be no production to regulate and improve. To do this the farmer's lot must be equal to that of the town dweller and worker, and his remuneration must be on a level or better than that of a workman in one of the big city unions. 4239 Mr Home.] You give the average number of cows between 1915 and 1919 as 763,000. Is that for the wholeState? Yes. Cows dry and in milk. That is for all districts. „ ^y. , 4240 Mr R J Black-I What percentage of dairying would you say is on the coast 1 Ninety per cent 424l' Gkmrmm.] In the concluding paragraphs of your report you make a number of suggestions for the recovery and improvement of the industry. Has your report been prepared partly from statistics collected and information gained by you during your travels through the State? It is based on information I have eained durin- many years' experience in the Government service and before I entered the service. 4242 And on perusal of statistics and from observation and travel m connection with the industry 1 Ss Is more hei^-testing required in this State ? Yes, we are only on the fringe of it. 4944 You anticipate that this year only 700 cows will complete their testing period ? Yes 4245! St . tSteland 98-5 is not tested? Yes. 4254. 2M Witness — L. T. Maolnnes, 15 December, 19120. -1254. With regard to our average milking, can you give us a co.nimrison with that of other dairying countries? The Danish figures are about 260 lb. of butter. Ours are from 116 to 122 J b. 42.55 That is to say one cow in Denmark would produce on an average twice as much or more butter than one cow will produce in this State? When Denmark started testing in 1897 their average yield was no liigher than ours is to-daj'. • i i q v 42'56. The result of herd testing in Denmark has more than doubled their yield! Yes. 4257. It means that here, without hcrJ testing, we milk two cows and feed two cows to get the same yield as could be obtained from one cow with herd testing, and that we have to employ double the labour and use double the pasturage ? Yes. ^ 4258. And double the capital value in stock 1 No, 1 do not think that. , , , ;, u i 4259. Here, without herd testing, you require to have double the number of cows, double the number ot milkers, and double the quantity of pasturage, to get the result achieved in Denmark 1 Yes. 4260. Herd testing is reflected in the progeay of the stock. The herd test of a high yielding cow would tend to reproduce a high yield in the progeny '! Yes. 4261. So that a good cow is not merely valuable for milking purposes, but for breeding purposes also I Yes. 4262. If that good cow was sold, you would get a much higher price for her ? Yes. 4263 At present you get as large a price for one cow as for another ? Yes, sometimes more for the inferior produce. , , , , 4264. It would be easy to double the output of our dairying industry by herd testing, which would double the yield 1 Yes, herd testing plus feeding. i • • • i 4. 4265. Herd testing carried out here as it is in Denmark would double the value of our dairying industry, as it would double the yield ? Yes. 4266. It has this important aspect. It would considerably overcome the labour difficulty, as it would reduce labour per farm t Yes. 4267. On the other hand, herd testing would make the employment of labour more profitable. Supposing a man got double the yield from 100 cows by herd te.sting, he could better affi3rd to employ labour « Yes. 4268. He could put that extra labour to better use on the farm. He could grow better feed 1 Yes, be could also have a smaller farm. It would help closer settlement. 4269. With herd testing, even if the farmer retained his large area he could keep double the number of stock on it that he does now. He could double his yield from the same number of stock 1 Yes. 4270. He could more than double his income 1 Yes. We have a concrete instance of that on the North Coast, where a farmer with 132 cows commenced herd testing. In the third year after starting he divided his herd into two. He worked half his farm and rented half. From sixty-six cows he got the same net income as he had originally made from 132. In the fifth year he again subdivided his herd, and reduced tiiem to thirty-eight, and as the result of reducing his labour cost he still got the same net return from the thirty-eight cows as he had made from 132. 4271. Had he the same area? No, he reduced his area again. 4272. Had his neighbours done what he did, they would all have been in the same position 1 Yes. _ That is a way to make land available to the people and to improve the living and social conditions in the country. It would tend to keep the people on the land. 4273. And to vastly increase the national wealth? Yes. Land is valued on its productive capacity, and if you double the productive capacity you double the value of the land. 4274. Mr. BIckL] What is the nature of the pasture in Denmark ? I think it is grass similar to English grass. 4275. Chairman.] No, you are wrong. In Denmark very little grass is grown for pasture. Nearly every acre of land in Denmark is arable land. Stock there are fed on crops ? In Denmark the cows are tethered out when grazed or depastured. 4276. What is the world's highest yield of butter by a champion cow ? 1,260 lbs. In New South Wales it i.s 1,021 lbs. That I think will be beaten shortly. 4277. We have to go up ten times to reach the champion ? Yes. Hereditary production is now accepted as an established fact. No good breeder or dairyman questions it, and it is most important that the strains which have that factor should be identified without delay. As an example of heredity, take ths milking Shorthorn bull " Banker of Eolaro " as a foundation sire of milk and butter fat producers. Details are given in my report. 4278. That is an lllawarra strain ? Most of thesm are so founded. 4279. Mr. Cole got his experience on the farm at Jamberoo? Yes. 4280. Mr Sinclair.] Docs heredity go on duplicating itself? Not always, but in the case I have mentioned high production is continued in each generation and at the same time is being increased. 4281. Mr. Cole was a practical man who had made a life study of dairying. He was not a college man, but by study he has got the best results in the State ? Yes. 4:^82. He has been a great prizewinner? Yes. 4283. If every dairy-farmer woi'ked up to the standard of Mr. Cole one would not recognise our dairying statistics ? No. Not every day is a breeder like Mr. Cole born. 4284. Mr. Home.] You do not suggest that it is intuition? It is a gift. 4285. Chairman.] Napoleon said that every soldier had a field marshal's baton in his knapsack, and the best soldier is the one who believes he can by individual effort become a better man. If our dairy-farmers did as Mr. Cole has done we should not recognise our dairying statistics? That is so. 4286. Mr. Cole's work has not been hard work ? No, from a manual view point, but it is thpughtful work, brain work. 4287. Has the Department any places at which men can be trained to become dairy breeders like Mr. Cole ? They can only be trained in practical work under practical conditions. 4288. Has the Department a good dairy science college ? That is the Hawkesbury Agricultural College and the dairy farms. 4289. Have they appropriated and assimilated Mr. Cole's knowledge for the benefit of the students t They have tried to assimilate it. 4290. Have they the equal of Mr. Cole in training ? I cannot answer that question. We are commencing to get better results, 4291. Mr. Hunt] Do you not believe that proper feeding has a great deal to do with auccess in dairying? Yes. " 4292. , , 245 Witness— li. T. Maclnnes, 15 December, 1920 -' -. Chairman.] Can you give us any information as to the relationship between herd-testing and the 79Q^"7T"^*° ^® ^^^"^^^ ^y P"*'?®'' ^ceding 1 The two should go together. *4»j. Is herd-testing carried on at the Wollongbar farm 1 Yea, Wo test cattle there under the United foo4 *'-«i'"^ Association scheme for production. tilt' T^ ^^^^^^ ^'^ y°" ''®^'^'' *° • Glovernment cattlp. fi /)'• f ° ^°^ ^v^'^ ^" ^^^ ^°"^^ people's cattle for testing ? No ; but the tester tests stud herds throughout AOQK ^T^''^'^' tJovernnient as a stock-breeder participates in the scheme. *r! , 'r^ y°^ confine the work to pure-bred cattle 1 Yea. There is the ordinary herd-testing association which tests cattle in the ordinary herds. *^^1" ^^'^ ™j"^ farmers co-operate in the scheme in that district 1 On the Richmond Kiver there are eight units and a complete unit contains twenty-five herds. 4298. That is 200 herds 1 Yes, but there may be thirty units. 4299. How many herds are there on the Richmond 1 There are close on 300,000 cows in the Richmond and Tweed districts. 4300. Would it be safe to assume that a very small proportion of those herds are being tested 1 Yes. 4301. The Richmond and Tweed districts are the best organised from the herd -testing standpoint ? Yes. On the North Coast as far south as the Macleay there arc 3,229 lioldings which specialise in dairying. For the whole State the number is 6,482. Only in the extreme North and the extreme South is herd testing carried on. 4302. I understand that there are only 200 out of 2,400 holdings on the Richmond and Tweed River district where herd testing is carried on ? Yes. 4303. But there are other holdings where dairying is carried on in conjunction with other farming] Yes. 4304. Out of 14,994 holdings used for dairying, it is pretty safe to assume that one-half of them are on the North Coast ? Yes. 4305. There are 200 holdings out of 7,500 on which herd-testing is carried on under Government auspices 1 Yes. 4306. What is done in the lUawarra district as regards herd-testing 1 Only pure bred cattle are tested. 4307. Who does tliat 1 The Government under the united breeders scheme. 4308. How many herds are tested ? Twelve or thirteen stud herds, but only a few stud stock out of each herd 1 There are no ordinary testing associations on the South Coast (lUawarra district). 4309. There is much less herd-testing on the South Coast than on the North Coast 1 There is none at all in the lUawarra. The Illawarra farmers supply milk to Sydney, and they say that the percentage of butter-fat docs not matter as long as their milk is up to the standard required by the Board of Health. 4310. Is the average yield on the South Coast above or below the aveiage for the State?. I could not tell you. 4311. Is it as good as on the North Coast? We have no means of comparison. 4312. Are cattle tested at the Governmant farm at Berry ? Yes, but they are pure bred cattle. 4313. We are dependent upon, the South Coast district for our city milk supply. Would herd-testing improve the milk supply ? Yes, and it would be the means of getting richer milk. 4314- It would increase the average yield. It would give the metropolitan area a larger milk supply ? Yes. 4315. The South Coast district could be made to double its dairying population if herd-testing were carried on 1 Yes. It would reduce the size of the living areas. 4316. Mr. Innes-Noad.] You have said that in the Illawarra district the dairy farmer does not bother about the percentage of butter-fat if his milk conforms to the standard required by the Board of Health, but butter-fat is a very necessary part of the nutritous qualities of milk ? Yes ; but for children too much butter-fat is not good. It makes the milk too rich. The standard is 3-2. 4317. What do you look for ? Not so much to the percentage of' butter fat as to the gross yield of fat. The milk companies endeavour to put on the market milk a little above the legal standard to pscape prosecution. 4318. Ghadrman.] Denmark chiefly has Holsteins, which "are high butter-fat producers ? They give a large volume of milk. 4319. They are good for cheese-making ? Yes. 4320. Mr. Innes-Noad ] As regards the Illawarra cattle, the difference in the butter-fat standard is not so great as to have a deleterious eflfecb on the milk supply. It is not a disadvantage ? No. 4321. Chairman.] Is our cheese production declining in volume? No, it has increased up to this year. At present it is going back on account of prices. The price of cheese does not compare with the current price of butter, and the quality cannot be compared with the quality of our butter. ^ „ „ ^ 4322. Mr. Sinclair.] To what do you attribute the loss in dairy producs lo which you have referred? Bad seasons, and non-conservation of produce. ..,,•• j- i. • . u • j o -o- 4:3-'>3 Chairman 1 From your experience should the pastures in the dairying districts be improved ? Yes, we'could improve our pastures on the North Coast— not by changing the grasses so much as by breaking them UD On the North Coast the grass is practically all paspalum, and paapaluni is such a vigorous grower that it prevents other grasses from thriving. They are choked out by the paspalum. Paspalum after some years has a tendency to mat itself, which prevents ram from soaking through. It it were broken up so as to let air and nitrogen in, there would be great improvement in the pastures. _ 4324 Docs it not get on with nitrogenous plants? Only white clover, and that only comes on in the spring. . . , y S. £.•—:] S:;lri::it:aJoT;r the North coast disirict? It has spread everywhere all J^^i' ^U^Tark 1 Where was it brought from ? South America. It is the only thing that would keep 4327. M,. -«'«f --I ;'^" „ , ^hen the scrub on the North Coast was cleared. 43S Mr.74/1 P-pakm made the Richmond ? Yes. They could not keep down the weeds and the undergrowth ^ijjout it^ ^^^^^^ ^ ^^ ^,^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^ ^j,^^ ^^^ ^^ ^^„y ^^ ^^^^^ ^^^ 4329. It wjll carry ™'»'« ^^^^j^ j^ ^^^.^ lik,\ beast to 2 acres. That is on account of the matting of the a beast to the acie, o\xl u"" paspalum. 4330, 246 WWnesses— L.T. MaclQiiesandJ. S. Purdy, D.S.O., M.D., CM. (Aberd.), D.P.H.(Camb.),P.R.S. (Edin.), 15 Dec, 1920 4330. Chairman] Do you believe that a breaking-up process would bring it back again ? Yes. Paspalum is taking charge on the South Coast too. 4331. Mr. Hunt] It has irapruved the pasture on the South Coast? Yes. On the North Coast it is ihe only pasture that thrives. It revolutionised dairying on the North Coast. 4332. Mr. Va/rley.] The far north 1 Yes. 4333. Mr. Home.] Did it not grow in places on the North Coast where there was no good pasture ? Yes. When the dense scrubs were cleared, paspalum was planted to keep down the weeds. It is practically the only grass that lived amongst the weeds. 4334. Mr Va/rley.] About Alstonville, where the best butter was produced, buffalo grass was the principal pasture, and there was good vvater 1 Yes ; but buffalo is not to be compared with paspalum as pasture, 4335. Chairman.^ Is it not desirable that there should be more coordination and l»ss overUpping in connection with the dairying industry 1 Yes. 4336. Do you agree with what other witnesses have said in that respect? Yes. 4337. Mr. Varley.] Do you know of any dairy-farmer on the North Coast who conserves fodder? Mr. W. H. Dougan, of Llsmore, has a silo which he tills every year. In my opinion the cultivation of fodder should be one of the conditions of registration of the dairy -farmer. It should be compulsory, just as it is compulsory to have bails and a dairy. It should be compulsory to have a hay shed or a silo John Smith Purdy, D.S.O., M.D., CM. (Aberd.), D.P.H. (Camb.), F.R.S. (Edin.), Medical Officer of Health for the Metropolitan Combined Sanitary districts, sworn, and examined : — 4338. Chairman.] How long have you held your present position ? For seven years. 4339. What were you prior to that 1 I was Chief Health Officer of Tasmania, for three and a half yeaps, and previously I was District Health Officer at Auckland. Before that I was Medical Officer of Health in the Egyptian Quarantine Service. I have prepared a statement regarding the relationship of agriculture to health, to show that agriculture is the healthiest occupation, and I strongly advocate the teaching of agriculture in every school. My statement is as follows : — Although each country has certain individual characteristics as to people, climate, and conditions, yet there are some local outstanding features which are common to all. Thus it is a matter of common observation that the man who lives an outdoor life is, generally speaking, more robust and healthier than the individual who is condemned voluntary or involuntarily to follow an indoor or sedentary occupation. All employment may be roughly divided into out-of-door and indoor — dusty and non-'dusty. Whilst indoor occupation, broadly speaking, is inimical to health unless carried on under ideal conditions, outdoor work in a pure air favours health and longevity. Outdoor Occupation.-^Every student of public health is acquainted with the famous occupational mortality tables of Dr. Tatham, compiled for the Registrar-General of England. Few people, however, have yet imbibed the wholesome lesson which they teach, which is that the more natural the environment and the less artificial the conditions of life of the worker, the longer his days in the land. Thus, farmers are shown to be thrice as healthy as labourers in industrial centres. Rohe, in Ms text-book on "Hygiene," shows that farmers and gardeners have the greatest expectation of life in the State of Massa- chusetts, with an average of 65"29 years, whilst females engaged in wage-earning occupations have an average of 39 '13 years. It was only comparatively recently that investigation had been made as to morbidity and mortality in different occupations. As a matter of actual 'fact, it was impossible in Australia to-day to get suwh data extending over any considerable period of time. Thanks to the initiative of the Commonwealft Statistician in introducing uniformity in the recording and compiling of death returns, it will ultimately be possible in Australia to get occupational mortality tables showing the effect of occupaiioiiis at different age-periods on the general health. It is interesting to know that from the national economic standpoint the healthiest industries, agricultural and pastoral, have always been the most profitable at all times, and in all countries. Thus, under whatever dynasty you study Egypt, whether the mainspring of good government be a Joseph or a Cromer, what Charles Rollin, the French historian,' wrote over 200 years ago in " The Mann,ers and Customs of the Egyptians," is that " Egypt owed its riches and plenty to husbandmen and shepherds." It will be always so with every kingdom where governors direct all their actions to the public welfare. The culture of land or the breeding of cattle will bean inexhaustible fund of wealth in all countries where, as in Egypt, these profitable callings are suggested and encouraged by maxims of State policy. It is being universally recognised, therefore, that the prosperity of a people and country depends largely on agriculture, and that those who are employed on the land enjoy, in the main, the best health, which is granted to be the best asset men and a country can have. One wonders why agriculture is not taught, together with hygiene, in every school to every boy and girl in Australia and New Zealaad. It is a matter of actual observation that the earliest years of life are the most impressionable. Everyone knows Voltaire's saying, so often quoted nowadays by advocates of the kindergarten, "Give me a child until he is 7, and I do not care who has him afterwards." Therefore, to attempt in some measure to counteract the unfortunate tendency people have to seek a gregarious existence, every child that is born into (.his Australasian world alive should be tsuught by precept and example to take an interest in the growth of plant-life, the tilling of the soil, and in agricultural pursuits generally. There is much need of the teacher of agriculture and hy^ne who has himself been taught, and who practically applies his teaching. We hear from time to time an outcry against child-slavery on farms. Undoubtedly it is a curse, and requires to be brought under rigid control. At the same time, the earlier the age at which .* child learns to milk and make himself useful about a farm the more likely is he in after life to develop the habit of work, to stick to the land, and become a useful, practical farmer. What Australia wants, what New Zealand wants, we are told, is immigrants. We certainly h^ve plenty of room for more people. iMy limited experience of immigrants, however, is such as to cause Joae to remark, "Get them young, not after they have formed habits and become adapted to arbifioial ooaditiows of life such as are associated with dwelling in big cities and congested centres of population," 247 WitneM~J. S. Purdy, D.S.O.. M.D., CM. (Aberd.), D.P.H. (Camb.), F.R.S. (Edin.), 15 December, 1920. crrowflr'^'^f '"^^''^ ^°*^ ?^^ Zealand, although in the history of countries of comparatively mushroom and pastoral*^^"]^'^^- '^"* evidence of the accumulation of wealth by the development of agricultural town '^'■*^°"|'^ "^^ J^'iow that the eountry-bred man is, man for man, physically a better man than the townsman and enjoys more robust health, generally speaking, yet we, who in some measure have the ouiaance ot the public health conscience of the people, cannot but be ashamed of some of the conditions under which people live and work in' the country. • I know that I had to stand, quite deservedly, a little chafiF from some of the Scottish Farmers ^commissioners, who commented on some of the primivive sanitary, or rather insanitary, arrangements or lacKot arrangements of some of the farms they had visited. Knowing, however, the conditions of some rural districts in England and Scotland, one Was able t . remark, " People in glass houses should not throw stones. However, one trusts that when the teaching of hygiene in schools becomes general we will ultimately get a genera;tion giving us a public and members of local authorities who will put sanitation, with a capital "S," in the forefront of their local parochial programmes of reform, and not relegate it to a position of less' importance than the provision of roads and bridges or the registration of dogs. Together with the sister oversea dominions oE Canada and South Africa, Australia and New Zealand offer a field for studying' the effects of what is or ought to be generally a healthy and natural environment on a people, for the most part at least, only one or more generations removed from the present stock of the British Isles, of in the case of parts of Canada and South Africa, people from Prance and Holland. Already sufficient data has been compitod with regard to school children, at least to show that the improved envwoniaent has had a beneficial effect. Records collected by Mr. Symons and myself for the New Zealand Health Department, quite as extensive as to numbers examined as to the data avail- able to witnesses at the time of the Royal Commission, were especially interesting in showing that whilst the average stature at the ages of 11 to 12 of boys in the public schools in Ertgland in 1883 was 54-98 inches, that of the cadets of the Auckland schools and King's College was 56 inches at the same age. Contrasting the heights of boys at Marlborough College, England, with those of King's College, Auckland, and Wanganui College, we found between the ages of' 14 and 15 the figures were 61-&6 for the famous English public school, and 63 for the New Zeafiland schools. Even more interesting was the fact that a comparison between the boys of the Chapel^street school, Auckland (proba!bly the children of poorest parents of the largfest New Zeaknd city), with the boys of Reumera (the wealthiest suburb), showed less disparity than has^ been found to exist between the measurements and werghtsr of children in the poorer districts of English cities as compared with the children of the more prosperous parents resident in the suburban centres and the boys of the English public sphools, Such a result was only to be expected in a country where there is not the severe handicap o:^ poverty which is s»ch a dead-weight in some of the congested centres of the Old Country. The prowess of the young Australian and New Zealander in the field of war, or of sport, is also such as need not make him ashamed to meet the stranger eithei; within or without his gates. The fact that already in the Commonwealth of Australia, with a population of less than 5,;O0OvOOO, there are over a quarter of a million persons employed in factories, shows that already we have our industrial problems, some of which have to do with industrial disease, I would suggest : — (a) That in conjunction with the Royal Agricultural Show, Sydney, there should be held aniiually an exhibit to illustrate improved methods of rural sanitation. I have offered to organise such an exhibit for the forthcoming show. (6) That a travelling exhibit of health and sanitation visit the country towns. It is intended to hold a health exhibition in Sydney in September, IS^I, in connection with the Health Inspectors' Conference, and I could arrange for such an exhibit to be shown in succession at the diifetent centres. (c) In connection with these health exhibits a popular lecture or lectures with slides could be given. (d) A siuiilar one to illustrate improved sanitation in country districts could be arranged. («) Encouragement to school children — especially in connection with corn clubs and such like organisations for encouraging boys and girls in competitions for growing wheat, etc. (/), Bach school-house should be made a community centre where the younger people especially should be encouraged to meeo for social recreation, such as dancing, and where entertainments might be given, such as concerts, cinema; shows, etc. (a) Holiday Schools — where children may spend a certain time in the country, under canvas, more especially in fruit-growing districts, where they can earn money at fruit picking: (h) Fa/Tm Schools for State OMMren —{Tha,t is to say, all orphans and children who are taken by the State Children Aid Department sho\ild be transplanted from city environment to the country.) Each farm should be manageil by a man and a woman, who would take ten children under their control. Farms to be within a 4-mile radius of a school. (i) Encouragement should be given to the publication by arrangement every week in country papers of two-column articles on some subject generally interesting to agriculturists. (j) Encouraoement should be given to running cheap excursion trains from the country centres to the city and vice versa, ik) Encouragement should be given to circulating libraries. (^ Encouragement to exchange of phonograph records by a central co-operativ6 body. (m) Extensfon of telephones. .„,,., ivr . • a ,.■ ■ in) Encouragement in the extension of bush nursing scheme. More extensive accommodation in ^ country districts in the way of lying-in institutions , -„ ^ ^ (o) Btioourao-etnent to girls to leave the city and go to the country by getting the Red Cross or some other organisation to register the names of the girls who are desirous of spending a month or ore in the country, arid by getting country womeii who have suitable accommodation, and who wish to obtain temporary help, to correspond. With 248 Witness— J. S. Purdy, D.S.O., M.D., CM. (Aberd.), D.P.H. (Camb.), F.R.S. (Edin.), 15 December, 1920. With regard to my suggestion that at the Royal Agricultural Show in Sydney there should be an exhibit to illustrate improved methods of rural sanitation, Mr. Somer, Secretary of the Koyal Agricultural Society has invited Dr. Harvey Sutton and myself to organise such an exhibit. I produce a chart compiled by Mr. J. J. C. Bradfield, Chief Engineer, Metropolitan Railway Construction, which shows the actual and estimated increase of population every ten years from 1850 to 1950 in the city of Sydney, in New South "Wales, and in the whole of Australia. The figures as shown on the chart are as follows : — PoPDLATio>f Actual and Estimated. Sydney, N.S.W. Australia. 1850 53,924 95, 800 1.38,000 225,000 381,000 491,000 623,000 800,000 1,088,000 1,540,000 2,226,000 182,424 349,000 500,000 748,000 1,122,000 1,. 365,000 1,639,000 2,132,000 2,865,000 4,048,000 5,856,000 404,089 1860 -. 1,142,000 1870 , 1,660,000 1880 2,246,000 1890 3,166,000 1900 3,770,000 1910 4,429,000 1920 5,609,000 1930 7,538,000 1940 10,378,000 1950 14,639,000 Population. Actual annual increase, 1850 to 1916 .... Estimated annual increase, 1916 to 1950 . Average annual increase, 1850 to 1950.... Foundation Day, 1788 Centennary, 1888 Present, 1916 Australia's population, 1916, located N.S.W. population, 1916, located Estimated population, 1950 Sjdney. N.S.W. Australia. 4'10 per cent, 3-19 „ 3'80 ,, 1,035 342,280 764,600 15 per cent. 40 2,226,000 3"58 per cent. 3-40 „ 3-53 „ 1,051,080 1,857,920 36 per cent. 5,856,000 3 •94 per cent. 310 „ 3-66 2,981,677 5,181,522* 14,639,000 * Including troops ab oad. Greater Sydney : Population, 1916 = 838,000. Estimated population, 1950 >• 2,800,000. 4340. At present 40'5 per cent, of the population of New South Wales, and 16 per cent, of the population of Australia, are located in the metropolitan area? The chart demonstrates that in Australia there will be the same drift from the country to the city as occurs in the older countries of the world, and in the United States. 4341. Mr Sinclair,] Is the ratio of increase greater in the country districts than in Sydney? No ; it is greater in the metropolis than in the country. People are coming from the country to the city. If one goes into the question of age distribution of population, I think it will be found it is at the producing age, from 25 to 60, that you get that drift of population to the city. Mr. Bradfield compiled the chart to show the congestion of population in the metropolitan area, and the need for better traffic facilities. I have prepared some further information, as follows : — Birth Rate. In the Metropolis of Sydney, containing nearly half of the population of New South Wales, the birth rate has declined from 4r09 in 1888 to 23-05 for last year, 1919. In the country, taking the whole of New South Wales outside the Metropolis, the rate was 35'3j in 1888, in 1919 it was 25 "89. Thus the decrease in the birth rate has been twice as great in tho city as in the country. Death Rate. The average annual death rate for the Metropolis for the last ten years ending 1918 was 10"55 in contrast to 10'12 for the remainder of the State. As a matter of actual fact the difference between urban and rural death rates is less marked to-day than formerly, owing to the relatively greater advance in town sanitation bringing the urban population into closer approximation with the rural as regards wholesomeness of surroundings. With regard to the conditions as to occupation which influence the death rate the inhalation of dust is a marked factor, as is well brought out in a table of the comparative mortality of males, ages 25 to 65, engaged in certain dust- inhaling occupations, from all causes and from pulmonary diseases. Thus taking the comparative mortality figure for all males at these ages in England and Wales for 1900-2 at 1,000, we find for the agriculturist the figure was 559, with 79 from phthisis, and 161 from phthisis and diseases of the respiratory organs, in contrast to coalminers with a comparative mortality figure of 846, phthisis rate 85, and a combined rate from phthisis and diseases of the respiratory organs 274. The figures for joiners were 769, 144, 264 ; quarrymen, 905, 186, 390 ; file makers, 1,602, 375, 691 respectively. Some of the predisposing factors towards disease in the country which might be lessened by a campaign of rural sanitation are : — Wells and springs receiving surface drainage, or uncovered or leaky covers. Insanitary privies. Poorly lighted houses. Lack of water supply ; lack of facilities for washing or bathing. Too monotonous a diet. (An investigation by Andreas in America showed that 95 per cent, of diets in the country districts examined were deficient in milk, eggs, butter, vegetables, and meat— the very products raised in those localities.) Conditions due to apathy, ignorance, inherent inertia, and conservatism. Lack of ventilation, and failure to appreciate open windows. Lack of social and mental recreation. Inadequacy and expense of medical aid ; lack of facilities for dental, eye, and ear treatment. As to the mental activity of the countryman in contrast to the townsman, my military experience in the South African War led me to the opinion that city-bred boys were quicker to train as scouts and could give a more intelligent report. On the other hand, as the result of four years' experience in the recent v/ar, I think that the country-bred boy was a better sticker after two years than the city-bred boy, and made a better soldier in the end. I 249 Witness-^J. &. Purdy, D.S.O., M.D., CM. (Aberd), D.P.H. (Camb.),,P.R.S.C. (Edin.), 15 December, 1920. 1 have here a paper headed "Farm Schools— Back on the La'nd," by Miss Isa Blomfield, Health Inspector, Sydney City Council. It is as follows :— Farm Schools — Back on the Land. Primary producers and increased production la the world cry at the present time, and yet in England, America, and Auatraha people are crowding into the cities while land ia lying idle for want of labour to cultivate it. The cauaes of this increase of city dwellers are numerous. In the first place, everyone wants to get a living in the easiest way possible, and while the competition for industrial labour is high, wages are relatively forced up, and farmers find it impossible to make a living and pay the same price for labour as the large manufacturer, whose return is quicker than that of the man on the land. Women are also responsible in a great degree for the constant iiiflux of population to large cities. The country, for women who have been accustomed to city life, with its comparative convenience, is an impossible place. They cannot adapt themselves to the new environment ; they are utterly miserable, and take no interest in occupations and pursuits which are full of interest to those who have spent their youth on the land, and many men who have had small holdings have drifted back to the city and become wage-earners for this reason alone. Before the decline of the Roman Empire people crowded into the cities ; agriculture was neglected, and the country could not produce sufficient food. The cities' food became abnormally dear, and had to be imported. Food riots were a constant occurrence. Here we are drifting into the same condition, in a country capable of producing any quantity of food, if a proper proportion of men and women can be induced to go on the laud. High Price of Food. The high price of food is perhaps the chief cause of industrial unrest at the present time, and in a sparsley populated country like Australia, if there were sufficient primary producers, the cost of food should be comparatively reduced. Men on the Land. We need men on the Land, but early training is also necessary to develop a taste for Agriculture. Education to Encourage Primary Producers. The present system of education tends to fit the rising generation not only to earn a living in cities, but to find all plaasures in city life. In Australia, with the bulk oE the psople living in its few coastal towns, the city dwellers are out of proportion to those on the land, and as the urban population only exists by the labour of the people on the land, it is absolutely necessary for the welfare of the country to have as many primary producers as possible. Mr. Sullivan, of the Press Conference, Cowra, speaking of the flow of people from the country to the city, quoting from the Committee's report, stated that nineteen years ago 35 per cent, of the State population was in the metropolitan area ; now 41"5 per cent was in that area. The question is : how are people to be induced to go on the land, and like the life well enough to be successful ? To like the life — that is the point — for unless a man is really interested in any work, he seldom makes good. Take the majority of people born and bred in a large city, no matter what sort of land they were given, they would be absolutely miserable, and pine for the pleasures and comparative conveniences of the city. The people who like and make a success of farm life are usually those who during childhood have seen it under favourable conditions. The neasou so many farmers' children become city dwellers is that their home life has been a dreary round of tasks before and after school houra, but the boy who baa spent holidays on a well-managed farm often has a keen desire to go on the land. Kiding, milking, haymaking, and looking after stock generally is a pleasure never forgotten, and the same with the girls — making bread and butter, riding, milking, haymaking, and tending their own plot of garden is no hardship. To foster in both boys and girls a love of the country, the Educational Department might establish a number of farm schools and let a certain number of children spend three months of the year as part of their education in learning agricultural work. There could be a central school house, surrounded by twenty small farms, where a certain number of children were housed with competent people to look after them. Each child would do a certain amount of work, care being taken that they were in no way over fatigued, the people in charge of them to be especially chosen, who would make the life as attractive as possible. In this way the farms would be self-supporting, the country would benefit by an improvement in the health and strength of the rising generation, and an increasing number of primary producers. It would also greatly benefit those who in after life devoted themselves to scientific research, their observations from Nature in early life would open out a wider field of thought than any information gained from books alone. From lectures delivered from Dr. Truby King some months ago, one gathers that his knowledge of the feeding of infants was gained in a great measure from his observation and study of animals on the (Government Farm attached to the mental hospital of which he was in charge for some years. To sum up, money spent in this way would increase the number of primary producers, improve the health of the rising generation decrease the number of persons suffering from tuberculosis, and enable Australia to support a large enough population to defend her when necessary. The following statistics were prepared by the Government Statistician :— New South Walks. Dkaths and RatB5 for Years 1915-1919— Metropolis and Remainder of State. Typhoid Fever Tuberculosis Cancer Bright's Disease Diseases of the Heart , METROPOLIS, Males. Females. Tot&l. Rate per 1,000 of Population. 169 1,39'i 1,837 1,5W 2,408 131 1,052 1,952 943 2,270 3.30 2,450 .3,789 2,483 4,676 •085 •63 •97 •64 120 REMAINDER OF STATE. Males. 307 2,410 2,2.53 1,511 3,819 Females. 171 1,568 1,646 748 2,248 Total. 478 3,978 3,899 2,259 6,067 Rate per 1,000 of Population. •71 •70 •40 108 NOTE-Deaths from tuberouloais in Remiiadur of StitJ include those of persons from Metropolis in institutions outside that area. 15th December, 1920 H, A, Smith, Government Statistician. f 6325—2 I 250 TUESDAY, 21 DECEMBER, 1920. Hon. Sik JOSEPH OARUUTHBRS (in the Chair) Hon. H. E. HORNE, Hon. a. SINCLAIR, Hon. G. H. G. VARLEY, Hon. S. R. INNES-NOAD. Percy George Gilder, Agricultural Editor, Sydney Morning Herald, sworn, and examined :— 4342. Chairman.'] What has been your experience in agriculture ? I was formerly editor of the Agricultural Gazette, and of the publications of the Department of Agriculture. I am a Gold Medallist ot the Hawkesbury Agricultural College, and was for nine years on the staff of that college. During that time I taught book-keeping not only to the regular students, but to the winter students who attended classes at the college, and I obteined a close knowledge of their requirements, in respect to book-keeping, and of their attitude towards it. We had each year at the college 100 farmers for a month, during the winter, and in discussing book-keeping methods with them I had an opportunity of learning their view-point, as well as the official vi.'iw-point in regard to it. I wrote a pamphlet on book-keeping for farmers, which was published by the Agricultural Department. I have taken a keen interest in the question of accounts from an agricultural standpoint. 4343. The matter of costing as regards agriculture is very important ? Yes. The Americans have paid great attention to the matter of cost of production, and as in the Department of Agriculture 1 was in charge of the library and of the departmental bulletins which came under my notice, I was able to make a close study of the various methods adopted. When some years ago a Departmental Committee decided on the adoption of a system of book-keeping at the experimental farms, I was appointed a member of the committee. I have made rather a hobby of the question. 4344. If farmers do not know of their costs they cannot tell whether they are producing at a profit ? That is so. 4345. You have gone into the question of the cost of wheat production 1 Yes. I have figures to submit relating to the amounts received by farmers during the last five years. In connection with the publication of the pamphlet on the basis of the cost in wheat production, to which I have referred, Mr. Hugh Ross, who was Chief Inspector of Agriculture, supplied the agricultural information, but most of the opinions- contained therein are my own, although the whole of the opinions as regards method, time taken in operations, and so forth, are based on Mr. Ross's experience in the Department, and that is why his name and mine appear together over the paper. 4346. You founded your figures on a basis of cost in wheat production ? Yes. That is intended to be the basis of cost so that any farmer knowing the conditions under which he works can ascertain his own cost. That sentence is really the key-note of the whole thing. The intention of the pamphlet is to indicate certain lines upon which the wheat farmer can, with as narrow a margin of error as possible, calculate the cost of production on his own farm. In the pamphlet we give particulars of how to arrive at the question of horse cost, which is based on the cost of producing the horse's feed. Horse costs depend upon the cost of feed while actually working, the cost of agistment when not working, the value and consequent interest upon cost and depreciation, and a small but appreciable allowance for contingencies, including sickness, accidents, f »i )) ,t ••• »» * »» fi i» »» ), Harrowing, 18 feet wide Rolling, 10 feet wide Disc cultivating, 5 feet wide _.... Spring-tooth cultivating, 9 feet wide.. Skim ploughing, 6 feet wide. _ Drilling Harvesting with combined harvester, 6-feet comb Stripping, 6-feet comb In this pamphlet details are given of the actual operations in connection with a fallowed crop. They ^re open to dispute, and any farmer may say that he cannot plough 4 acres a day with six liorses. If he can only do 3 acres a day his cost will rise proportionately. At 4 acres per day we work out the cost at 6s. 4d. per acre. The operations necessary in producing wheat may vary according to class of soil and season, and in some cases the exigencies of other necessary work at a time most favourable to all the particular operations. Under average conditions they would include :- 6-inch ploughing ... Harrowing three times, at 7d. ... Disc cultivating ... Spring- tooth cultivating... Drilling ... Graded seed, I bushel at 68. Superhosphate, \ cwt. at 6a. per cwt., landed on farm Pickling seed, at 4d. per bushel .. . Hail and fire insurance, say Harvesting with harvester Sewing bags, twine, stacking bags, kc., say ... Rental value of land (two years) £2 2 8 Most of these operations are necessary, whether a man gets 10 bushels or 20 bushels. Departmental experience show that the returns on fallowed land, well-cultivated, sown with graded and pickled seed, and supplied with superphosphate, have been at least half as much again as the State average, and this would bring the average estimated yield from land so treated to at least 17 or 18 bushels per acre. The cost of producing wheat on unfallowed land, taking one year's rent at 6s., two harrowings instead, and no disc cultivating, would be £2 2s. 8d., less 10s. 3d., equal to £1 12s. 5d. per acre. 4347. You have to add the cost of bags and cartage 1 Yes ; the following table indicates the approximate cost per bushel in 1917, based upon varying returns per acre, though there would be slightly increased charges in insurance, handling in the paddock, &c., for the higher yields : £ s. d. ... 6 4 ... 1 9 ... 3 K ... O u ... 1 .') ... 4 6 ... 3 ... 3 ... 1 6 ... 3 10 ... 2 ... 12 Yield per acre on fallowed land. Production cost per bushel. Bag-gini; and Cartage. Cost landed at station. 19 Bushels. £ s. d. 3 6-6 3 3-4 e 3 0-6 2 10-1 2 8 2 61 2 4-4 2 3 2 1-6 d. 5-3 5-3 5-3 5-3 .5-3 5-3 5-3 .5-3 5-3 £ s. d. 4 iq , 3 8-7 3 6 IK 3 3.4 IC 3 1-3 2 11-4 2 9-7 in 2 8'3 e\r\ _ 2 7 The wide disDaritv in these figures should be sufficient to show the difficulty of making any estima,te of cost without a full knowledge of the facts in any particular case. But if it does nothing else it should po nt out in unmistakable terms the undoubted advantages of mcreasmg the yield m every possible way. ft may -^ely . ^ asser^^^^^^^ ^^ Sv^KZiht it b ^^^ t^^f TpSorttcXTng'th-: Lreitde*: cultivation than by the us^ of the most suitable varieties of seed, well graded and treated, the judicious use of fertiliser, and care m handling the crop during harvesting There^is a maximum beyond which the area covered hy each implement used m wheat production cannot «f W^Kp,-T,r.rPa-=ed— though it is by no means safe to assume that such has yet been reached-but no reSl^ser™t to the possibilities of increasing production by the means of improved varieties, one wiu ac „„lHvation methods, and general efficiency of management, adoption of better cultnation^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^ difficulty of arriving at the cost of ■nie table f^Pf^^ without"^ nsiderin' a very lar.e number of facts. In evidence given before previous wheat produci.on-^h^^^^^^^^^^ -'^ely varying statements very largely because they committees ^^^^ «ommissKms ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^, ^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ .^e value have adopted a d^ff^^^^P'^J'^C obtained 400 copies, which they sent out to their branches, and decided tLSllters^allX^T^XJoduction shou^ld be based on'this method. 252 Wiiness—F. G. Gilder, 21 December, 1920. 4348. Since you prepared your estimate the cost o£ labour, plant, and grading seed, has gone up 1 Yes. 4349. Also the cost of superphosphates ? Very little. The cost of superphosphates has remained at a low level. 4350. Freight landed on the farm, and bags, have gone up considerably ? Yes. 4351. Mr. Home.] Hail and fire insurance have gone up, too ? This year I think about 5 per cent, of the total value of the crop. 4352. Chairman.] What would you say was a fair increase to cover the advanced cost of labour, seed, plant, insurance, bags, twine, and cartage ? We have to be careful in mentioning figures unless they are for a particular year. The conditions this year are abnormal. The cost of putting in a crop, cartage to the station, bags, and so many other things, is abnormal. I was asked a similar question by the Board of Trade, and I declined to answer, as I contended that it was the duty of the Board of Trade to decide upon the cost of labour. The Board of Trade admitted the cogency of my argument. In the table of costs it is put down at 10s. a day as a convenient figure to work at, but it was no part of a departmental officer's duty to say what the cost of labour should be. 4353. Horse value would be higher nowl We put it down at £30. I doubt whether under ordinary conditions it would be higher than that. 4354. I refer to present conditions ? It would not be much more. . 4355. Take the prevailing conditions for the production of the present crop. It has been difficult to get fodder in the country 1 Yes, in that case the horse cost would be more than double. Figures which I will submit later show that the farmer did not receive a fair return, based on the costs as shown in the article, for his wheat during the last five years. 4356. Your figures do not include rates or taxes? That is included in the rental of 6s. per acre. 4357. He is a lucky man who in this country can get a crop on land that he could buy or sell at 6g. per acre. The field itself is generally fenced off, and ought to be netted and provided with good gates. It is also generally the pick of the holding, as regards its arable qualities. You cannot have your wheatfield where there are hills and hollows and breaks, although that may be very fertile land ? That is so. We have averaged the land at £6. We based our estimate on land 6 miles from the railway station. If it were closer to the station there would probably be a corresponding increase on the value of the land. The further it is from the railway the leas would be the rental value. My figures are only intended for the farmer's perusal, but they have been used as a basis by various committees. I have figures for the last twelve years, showing wheat production and the very wide variation in yield, as follows: — ■ Wheat Pkoduction, 1908-9, 1919-20. 1908-9 1909-10 1910-11 1911-12 1912-13 1913-14 1914-15 1915-16 1916-17 1917-18 1918-19 1919-20 Grain. Hay. Fed off or failed. acres. 1,394,000 1,990,000 2,129,000 2,381,000 2,232,000 3,205,000 2,758,000 4,189,000 3,807,000 3,357,000 2,410,530 1,450,540 acres. 490,828 380,784 422,972 440,243 704,221 5.34,226 i)69,43l 879,678 6.S3,605 423,300 .38,3,530 716,000 acres. 104,202 5,825 61,458 80,731 31,557 23,393 815,561 53,702 58,101 41,400 437,490 883,000 Total. acres. 1,989,086 2,376,789 2,613,256 2,901,684 2,967,292 3,763,016 4,143,016 5,122,245 4,498,310 3,828,440 3,231,550 3,050,000 Yield Per acre. hushela iri 14-3 13'1 10-5 14-6 11-9 4-7 159 9-6 11-3 7-4 30 These figures show that we must have a profitable export market for our wheat in order to insure a sufficient crop for local consumption. Last year we had only 4,000,000 bushels for the whole of the State. That 4,000,000 bushels is unrepresentitive in some ways, because a large proportion of the area which was planted was fed off or failed. From 3,000,000 acres under wheat the total crop was 4,000,000 bushels. Under normal conditions, with an average harvest of 10 bushels, we should have had 30 000 000 bushels, which would be more than double our local requirements ; but as the crop was a failure we had not one-third of our local requirements. We ha^-e to face this alternative : If we have not a profitable export market for our surplus wheat we cannot ensure in a bad season suflScient for local consumption. 4358. You want a carry over? We must have a market, so that if we get a 15 bushel yield per acre we shall have a profitable export market for the surplus. With only 3 or 4 bushels to the acre we should not have sufiicient for local requirements. There will have to be more encouragement to the wheat farmer to grow more than sufficient for local requirements, in order that we shall get auflScient for our own needs. That is one of the lessons one learns from the wheat production of the last twelve years the wide variation in the yield. Because of the fact that wheat during the last five years has been controlled by the State pool, we know what the farmer has received on an average. That is shown as follows • • Payments from Pool. Yea,r. Amounb per busliel. E-stimated frciffht. 1915-16 1916-17 1917-18 1918-19 3919-:^0 d. 6S 3 (l8.6d. promised included.) ft. 3i 4 4 4 i Net Receipts free on rail. Average yield per aero. 4 3 2 11 3 8 4 3 6 2 Bus. 15-9 9-6 11-3 7-4 30 Average yield for 5 years 9 '4 Not Return per acre (free on rail .) £ B. d. S 7 1 1 8 10 2 11 5 1 11 5i 18 6 4359. Missing Page 284 Wi